Trial by Jury: Proposed Restrictions

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 14th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the creation of a Crown Court bench division, as recommended by Sir Brian Leveson, must be seen in light of his related recommendations. One of the most critical to arrest the growing crisis in our criminal justice system is to provide a further 20,000 Crown Court sitting days. Do His Majesty’s Government accept that clear recommendation? If not, why not? If they accept it, what immediate steps are they actively taking to implement it?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government already have more sitting days than any previous Government. The central observation of both Sir Brian Leveson’s review and the earlier view of David Gauke is that one cannot sit oneself out of this crisis or build oneself out of it by building more prison places. There needs to be a systemic review encompassing both Sir Brian’s recommendations and the Gauke recommendations to stop the ever-increasing amount of people being sent to our prisons. It is that in that spirit that we will review Sir Brian’s recommendations. We will publish our review some time in the autumn, with a view to legislating on the matter in due course later this year.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, we are not short of jurors; the whole adult population can serve in a jury. We are short of judges, of prosecuting and defence barristers and of courts that are fit for purpose. Leveson suggests that his new bench courts would give rise to a mere 20% savings in time, and he admits there is no evidential basis for what is simply a guess. If the Government are minded to accept that recommendation, will they introduce pilots to test his hypothesis? What are they doing to address the delays for victims, and for defendants on remand in prison, that are staring them in the face now?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for those questions. He is absolutely right that we are not short of jurors. We are also not short of magistrates and there is no shortage of applicants to become magistrates. Sir Brian’s suite of recommendations included increasing the role of the magistrates’ court, as well as introducing the new bench division within the Crown Court, to which the noble Lord alluded. He said that Sir Brian said there will be a 20% saving in time with the new bench division. That is his estimate. I have to say, I think that is very conservative. We already know that for similar cases magistrates’ courts are two or three times quicker than Crown Courts, so I think it is conservative to estimate that we will see only a 20% saving in time with the new bench division courts.

The noble Lord made the point about delays for victims. Of course, that underpins the concern and the reason we are introducing these systemic changes in the first place. It is my understanding that there are about 100 cases in London booked for 2029. I think they may be mainly sex-related cases; I am not sure. That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable for the victims and the defendants, and it is a systemic problem we are trying to address.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister for his long public service as a lay magistrate, as I do to Sir Brian for his long public service as a judge and, post-judiciary, on various inquiries for Governments of both persuasions. I know the Government are considering how to respond to this review and the Gauke review. May I ask my noble friend to take into account that we cannot have one class or one group of people permanently sitting in judgment over another? The lay magistracy, for all its commitment to public service, is not as representative as juries and that needs to be taken on board.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My noble friend makes a fair point. I would say that magistrates are more diverse than judges. Judges already sit in certain types of cases as single judges deciding people’s guilt; they do it in youth courts and family courts, and there are other examples within the civil jurisdiction as well. I think it is also fair to say that in the big conurbations—London and the big cities—there is greater diversity in the magistrate base. I take the point my noble friend makes, but I think that magistrates are respected and we are starting from a strong base if we want to build on the work they are doing.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that it is a scandalous disgrace that in this country some victims and people charged with offences have to wait months and sometimes years before a trial can take place? Does he therefore agree that, in those circumstances, the Government have no choice but to accept as quickly as possible the excellent recommendations made by Sir Brian Leveson, because I hear of no alternatives? Will he undertake that they will not take too long reviewing and considering these matters? This should proceed as rapidly as possible with the full support of everybody who has the interests of the rule of law and justice in this country at heart.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his support. I agree with everything he said. Data published last month showed the backlog stood at nearly 77,000 cases. That is an increase of 2,300 cases over the previous quarter. If we were not to take any action, it is projected that the outstanding caseload would be 100,000 in 2028. Clearly, that is unacceptable, and I absolutely take the point he made. As I said in answer to an earlier question, it is the Government’s expectation that we will respond to Sir Brian’s recommendations in the early autumn with a view to legislation.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, it was my privilege this lunchtime to be with a group of young legal students with very diverse backgrounds except that they had all been through the care system—a group of people who are more likely than anybody else to be charged and prosecuted for behaviours that others might be treated more favourably over. The same often applies to people from minority-ethnic backgrounds. Does the Minister agree that dealing with that disproportionality in how people are treated for the same behaviour by the legal system will be a good way to reduce some of the waiting lists of courts?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise what the right reverend Prelate has said. As he may know, I sat as a youth magistrate for 17 years and as a family magistrate for a long period as well, and I recognise the general problem of disproportionality. There is not a single way of solving that problem, but a number of agencies within the criminal justice field and the MoJ are looking at the different aspects of disproportionality. He opened by pointing at the care system in particular. Probably well over 50% of all the youths I saw in youth court had come from the care system in one way or another, so I recognise what he is saying, and it is something that we take very seriously.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in addressing the very serious problems faced by the criminal justice system, it is important not to romanticise the jury, given that 90% of all criminal trials in this country are heard without a jury and relatively speedily—not as speedily as perhaps they could be, but relatively so—and they are heard effectively and with justice.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Lord—of course I would agree because, as a magistrate, I was among those who hear 90% of all criminal cases. There is no right to a jury trial; however, there is a right to a fair trial. For a fair trial, it must be heard in a timely manner. That is where we are failing. We need these systemic changes to address that fundamental problem, so that people—both victims and defendants—can get a fair trial in a timely way.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, can I ask the Government to take particular note of the recommendation in relation to fraud trials? This is not a new suggestion; it goes back to Lord Roskill about 50 years ago. These are very lengthy, very expensive trials, which are often very difficult for juries to understand—that is not in any way to patronise the jury system. It would save a great deal of time and money, and would help with the backlog, if we moved to a system of trial that does not involve juries.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. It was a recommendation of Sir Brian’s, and I am sure it is one on which the Government will reflect very carefully.

Humanist Weddings

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 30th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made to enable legal humanist weddings.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, the strength of feeling around legally recognising humanist weddings is clear. I assure my noble friend that the Government understand the issues, including the key importance not just of weddings but of marriage itself, and we are looking at them with the utmost care. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, my honourable friend Alex Davies-Jones, said in the other place a couple of weeks ago, our officials are working on this issue “at pace” and an update “will come soon”.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that and I apologise to the House for the fact that I have persistently been asking this question for the last few years. I am channelling my noble friend Lord Rooker on folic acid, and I just hope it is not going to take me quite as long as it took him to win that argument. As my noble friend has said, the Minister responsible for matter in the other place said that

“officials are working on this at pace”,—[Official Report, Commons, 12/6/25; col. 454WH.]

but she said that they were working at pace on the position of wedding law reform, so while there may be the slightest glimmer of hope, I am rather worried that law reform looks like it may take years. Therefore, I re-ask my noble friend whether we are looking at months or years for humanists not be left at the altar any longer.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

As I think my noble friend acknowledges, this is indeed a very complex issue which goes far beyond humanist marriage. The Law Commission highlighted the complexities of the law in this area and concluded that exercising the order-making power, which is what I think my noble friend wants us to do, is not, in its view, a viable option. We believe, as a responsive Government, that we need to look at the wider picture. I say to my noble friend that when we say we are working at pace on this issue, that is indeed true: we do want to resolve the wide-ranging discrepancies within wedding law across England and Wales.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful. Has the Minister refreshed his memory as to what he said on this subject on 25 April 2022 when he was in opposition? This is what he said:

“My Lords, the Liberal Democrats clearly support this change; the Labour Party supports this change; the Government in Wales support this change; the Government in Scotland support this change … so why are the Government waiting for the Law Commission’s report?”.—[Official Report, 25/4/22; col. 9.]


Can he now answer his own question?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I remember that debate very well, and I did indeed say those words. The answer is that it is a very complex question. There are many idiosyncrasies across wedding law in England and Wales, as there are in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Government believe that we need to take our time to address this issue properly.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister refers to this as a “complex question”. The fact is that Ministers may make this into a complex question by extending it beyond the simple question: should humanist marriages be legalised? If one sticks to that simple question, it is not complex and it could be agreed now, today.

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I think it was the previous Government who asked the Law Commission to do its report. The Law Commission came up with 57 recommendations for changes to marriage in England and Wales and we want to take our time to look at those.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that reforming marriage laws is a complex business, but in terms of removing discrimination against humanists who wish to get married, as their religious counterparts do, why do the Government not lay an order, just as an interim measure, which would enable humanists to marry?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I think the answer is the same as that I have given to others, which is because solving this anomaly for humanists would create other anomalies. That is why we want to take our time, although we are working at pace, to resolve the anomalies with weddings in England and Wales.

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, noble Lords will not be surprised to hear from these Benches that I am thoroughly in favour of marriage. I want to stress the many benefits of getting married in church, but I am also in favour of encouraging more people to marry wherever, provided that the ceremony reflects the seriousness of the commitment being entered into and the love that lies at its core. To that end, does the Minister agree that if adjustments were to be made to our current premises-based system to enable legal humanist marriages, the door should not be opened so wide that it brings in a free market in commercial celebrants that will cheapen and devalue what is such a vital and foundational institution?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question, and I agree with his point that marriage should be a serious statement of love between two partners for the rest of their lives. It is not just about marriage; it is about the weddings that lead into that lifelong commitment. He raises an interesting point about whether, in England and Wales, we should move away from a premises-based system, which is what we have at the moment. Scotland, for example, has an officiant-based system, and there may be arguments for making that move; that is what the Government want to look at based on the recommendations of the Law Commission.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, there is no question—to argue with the right reverend Prelate—that a commercial aspect is part of a humanist wedding; it is a very strong and serious undertaking that shows humanist couples love each other. I recommend that he might want to come along and reassure himself that humanist weddings are a lovely thing.

However, I have a different angle on this. Arguably, LGBT humanists feel even more discriminated against, because they are significantly more likely to identify as non-religious. Therefore, what consideration have the Government given to humanist marriages from this equalities perspective? What advice do the Government have for humanist LGBT couples who want to get married in line with their beliefs?

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree 100% with the opening remarks of the noble Baroness. I recognise what she said about that. However, it is worth reflecting on the case of Harrison, where the High Court found that there was a difference in treatment in weddings law towards humanists, but it went on to say that the Government were justified in taking their time to review the recommendations from the Law Commission, which is what we are doing. I appreciate the frustration, and I appreciate that this affects disproportionately the gay community. Nevertheless, the Government’s point stands that we need to get this right because there are other anomalies in the system that also need to be addressed.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, we are outliers. You can have a humanist marriage in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and a host of other countries, but, but as everyone else has said, you cannot have one in England or Wales. I agree with the Minister that it is right that the Law Commission fundamentally reviews the totality of our extraordinarily antiquated and outdated marriage laws. I hope the Minister will make haste on that. In the meantime, what could possibly be lost by the Government immediately triggering the power that I understand they hold under the 2013 same sex marriage Act and enabling humanist marriage in England and Wales now?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I can certainly give an assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Birt, that we are making haste, and we will make an announcement soon. I know I have said that on previous occasions, but I mean it and a statement will come soon.

I have made this point before, but I will make it in a different way. There are people who have humanist marriages in Northern Ireland and Scotland. People can and do have humanist marriages in England and Wales, but they also have to go to a town hall or something to get the state to recognise the status of their marriage. It is that anomaly which needs to be addressed when we review the 57 wider recommendations of the Law Commission.

European Convention on Human Rights: Protocol 12

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to sign and ratify Protocol 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights to promote the equality of all persons in the United Kingdom through a general prohibition of discrimination.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government currently have no plans to ratify Protocol 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Protocol 12 is a very broadly drafted, free-standing right that creates unpredictability in how it will be given effect by the court, and it is not clear that ratifying it would increase protection from discrimination in the UK. The Equality Act 2010 provides a robust and clear framework within domestic law for combating discrimination.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, that is a disappointing response. I am not surprised by it, sadly, but I will persevere and try to convince the Government otherwise, along with my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who cannot be in his place today, and Professor Paul Johnson of the University of Leeds. I wish to ask a question of the Minister in the wider context. Given the attacks on fundamental human rights that we are witnessing in the United States of America, Gaza, Ukraine, parts of Europe and elsewhere, is now not the time for the United Kingdom to join the 37 other European states of the Council of Europe and reaffirm these international principles, which underpin and in fact define every civilised society?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The way that I will answer my noble friend is by saying that we continue to keep the case law of the European Court of Human Rights in respect of Protocol 12 under review, but we remain unconvinced of the benefits of ratification. The United Kingdom is not an outlier in this regard. The protocol was open for signature nearly 25 years ago, yet fewer than half the member states of the Council of Europe have ratified it. Nevertheless, I take the noble Lord’s opening point that we need to keep these matters under review. There are indeed widespread attacks on democracy and our way of life across the world, and that reinforces the Government’s view about keeping these matters under review.

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Government are not yet prepared to sign up to Protocol 12, will they give a commitment to address the rights and protections afforded by the Equality Act—all the rights and protections—ensuring that all the protected characteristics are equally enforced and protected, especially in light of the confusing and confused narratives around the recent Supreme Court judgment?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I say to my noble friend that I think the Supreme Court judgment made the situation clearer, not less clear. The nine protected characteristics within the Equality Act are all important in themselves. It is within the Equality Act that gender reassignment is recognised. People who are trans and who have gender recognition certificates have protected characteristics, and it is for the courts to work out in due course how those will manifest themselves.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, we live in increasingly uncertain and divided times in so many parts of the world. Here in the UK, many people worry that populism, division and discrimination are on the rise. Signing up to Protocol 12 would make a big difference to all who fear discrimination and a reduction of our rights. Why, if the Government believe we are all equal—and I believe that they do—would the Minister not give to all our citizens the reassurance they need by signing up to Protocol 12?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will have heard the Answer I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. I agree that we are living in divided times. The position of the Government is that we do not think signing up to Protocol 12 would change that. We think that existing laws, including the Equality Act and the Supreme Court judgment, are adequate. However, as I have said to both my noble friends who asked the previous questions, we will continue to keep this under review, because I agree with the noble Baroness’s opening point that we are living in divided times and need to be sensitive to that.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the Equality Act and protected characteristics. Could he give any indication of whether the intention of the Government is to extend the number of categories of protected characteristics? I have in mind care leavers as an example. There is a substantial amount of pressure that they should be included as one of the protected characteristics.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I am not aware of any government initiative to extend the number of protected characteristics. If I am mistaken on that, I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

Can the Minister explain why the Government have not joined with other contracting states in their attempt to promote discussion about reform of the European convention, particularly in relation to immigration matters?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The first point is that the Government were not asked whether they wanted to be a signatory to that letter, which was for all members of the EU—it was they who signed the letter. Nevertheless, we are monitoring the situation very closely. We are sympathetic to some of the sentiments expressed in the letter, so we will continue to monitor that situation.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

I am a Methodist minister, and I see so many people absolutely despairing. “What are we going to do?” “What will be the consequence of what is happening in the world at the present time?” Signing this will be one step: one indication that we know where we want to go. That is what the declaration is. So I urge the Government to do this. It is not just a fancy thing; it is so meaningful and so required in the world today. We could be one of the leading nations in that move to the future.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I recognise the noble Lord’s strength of feeling, but I have to repeat what I said in answer to an earlier question: only 20 of the contracting states within the Council of Europe—that is 20 out of 46—have signed up to this over the last 20 years. So I am afraid I do not accept his premise. However, as I have said to other noble Lords, I do accept the concern he raised initially, and we will continue to keep the matter under review.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

In answer to the Question, the Minister said that the Government consider the provisions under Protocol 12 to be too wide or too broad. Can the Minister give the House some examples of where they consider those provisions to be too broad?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I think the short answer is no, I cannot.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

So I will write to the noble Lord about that. Nevertheless, my point stands: many other states have considered this and have not at present decided to sign the protocol. It is worth pointing out that none of the larger states within the European Union or the Council of Europe have signed it, either.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have a duty not just to protect people’s rights and freedoms but to promote public understanding of those rights and freedoms. So can my noble friend the Minister explain why this further innovation of a free-standing right against discrimination in Protocol 12—as opposed to a right against discrimination in the context of other convention rights, such as Article 14, which we are signed up to—would not benefit people, in the light of his comments that the Equality Act already does the trick?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The fact of the matter is that we are seeing the law develop in these areas. We have had the Supreme Court judgment. I and the Government believe that the Equality Act is working well, and there will be development in law in this matter going forward. It is also right that there is very little common law associated with Protocol 12 for those states that have signed up to it. So, as I said, the Government are keeping an eye on this matter, but at present they do not believe that it is right to sign up to Protocol 12.

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government then give a commitment to bring forward, as a matter of urgency, proposals outlined in the Labour manifesto and based on the Law Commission’s recommendations to widen hate crime law, including a widening on aggravated offences?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My noble friend will know that relevant Bills are coming to the House of Lords imminently. There are various provisions in those that are widening the protection of victims. On hate crime law, there are various measures in the Bills within that. But, if my noble friend wants to make specific suggestions, she is welcome to approach me as these Bills come forward to the House of Lords.

Criminal Cases Review Commission

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 20th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the exoneration of Peter Sullivan after 38 years in prison, what assessment they have made of performance of the Criminal Cases Review Commission in dealing with cases of miscarriage of justice quickly and decisively.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, my deepest sympathies are with Peter Sullivan for the miscarriage of justice he has faced. The whole criminal justice system must learn from what happened here. I also express my sympathies for Diane Sindall’s family. MoJ officials hold regular meetings with the CCRC executive to monitor the organisation’s performance, and they use a range of factors, including case review timeliness, to do so. The CCRC has a target of completing 85% of cases within 12 months of receiving them. The most recent annual report, which covers the financial year 2023-24, shows that it met or exceeded this target in 10 months out of 12.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that answer. Of course, Peter Sullivan’s case is even more extreme than Andrew Malkinson’s—38 years in prison for a murder he did not commit. The issues arising include the CCRC’s refusal to review the case in 2008, the delay in re-examining DNA samples until 2021 and then the further four years it took to bring the case before the Court of Appeal. Pending the promised CCRC review, which the noble Lord mentioned on 7 May, how will the Government now ensure that all current cases are considered urgently and with some independent oversight?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The ministry has provided additional funding for the CCRC to look at closed cases where advances in forensic science could now provide new evidence. The CCRC is actively working with the Forensic Information Databases Service to ensure that it can effectively track and revisit unmatched DNA profiles. The CCRC is in the process of amending its case management system so that it can identify and monitor any cases for relevant scientific, medical or other developments—for example, when DNA testing does not produce a profile.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, the CCRC currently has 10 cases before it of postmasters who used the Capture system, a forerunner of the Horizon software system at the Post Office. Those cases date back to the early 1990s; those individuals are often now in ill health and have been waiting for justice for too long. What pressure can my noble friend put on the CCRC to review those cases as a matter of urgency? Otherwise, those individuals will not get justice before many of them pass away.

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I shall write to him. I do not have an answer to the point that he raises, but I shall ensure that it is brought to the attention of the CCRC board.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, does it not add insult to injury that, after a person has spent the whole of their life wasted in jail, they do not get immediate compensation as soon as they are released? I have read that one of them has been waiting for years. There should be no cap on the compensation; it should be given absolutely immediately so that the person emerging from prison has something to fall back on. We cannot let them loose on the streets with no compensation.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The Government are actively looking into the concerns raised about the compensation cap and will provide an update on that matter in due course. We would encourage Mr Sullivan to make an application to the miscarriage of justice application service, and we will prioritise his application because of the length of his prison sentence.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, since we discussed the CCRC last week, it has become apparent that Mr Chris Henley KC, who wrote a review of the CCRC in relation to the Malkinson case, thinks that the chief executive gave inaccurate evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee. Nobody places any blame on the Secretary of State or on the Minister in this place for the current state of the CCRC, but has the time not come for the decision on who should be the next chair of the CCRC to be made not in the near future but today? It is unravelling quickly, and there will be more Malkinsons and more cases of that hideous nature unless the Government really grab hold of it and take charge.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord raised those points a couple of weeks ago and, since then, we have had the letters in the Sunday Times about the appearance of the chief executive in front of the Justice Select Committee. I shall not comment on that, because the CCRC is an independent body, but it has already begun to implement a number of the Henley recommendations—and, of course, we intend to go further on that. On the appointment of the interim chair, as the noble and learned Lord will know the objective is to have an interim chair for 18 months to review the CCRC’s operations. An individual has been identified and is going through the approvals process, so the announcement will be made imminently.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, at the reverse end of the spectrum, we have a case that has gone before the Criminal Cases Review Commission for preliminary consideration—the Lucy Letby case—with all the uncertainty that must be creating for the families, particularly as they are also having to navigate a public inquiry. Can the Minister satisfy this House that there is adequate resource within the commission to deal with that case expeditiously?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

There has actually been an increase in resource for the CCRC over the past five years or so, partly to meet the point on forensics that I made in answer to an earlier question. If there is a disproportionate extra amount of work because of the particular case to which the noble Baroness refers then I will make sure that the authorities within the MoJ are aware of that but, as I say, there has actually been an increase in resource for the CCRC for a number of years now.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, any miscarriage of justice has tragic consequences, not only for the wrongly convicted but for the victims of the original crime. It is also liable to undermine public confidence in the justice system. We have seen recent cases where innocent persons have spent tens of years in prison despite repeated applications to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. There is a concern that the commission has been overly cautious in referring cases back to the Court of Appeal, so what measures will be taken to address that concern? Will they include a question over the composition of the commission, and not just its chairmanship?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The short answer to the noble and learned Lord’s question is yes. The review, which, as I said, will take about 18 months, will indeed look at the CCRC’s composition. Of course, the Law Commission is due to produce its report next year, so with the combination of these activities we see some radical reform of the CCRC on the horizon.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister give us any indication of how many outstanding cases of this nature are still waiting to be dealt with?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I will have to write to my noble friend; I do not have those figures in my pack. As I said, the CCRC has a target of completing case reviews in about 85% of cases within 12 months, which it is meeting in 10 months out of 12. I cannot answer my noble friend’s question with an exact figure, but I will write to her.

[Lord Meston (CB)]

My Lords, do the Government agree that the provisional proposals for reform of the tests and processes of the CCRC, indicated recently by the Law Commission, have a lot to commend them? No doubt the Government will say that we should wait for the Law Commission’s final report next year, but meanwhile has any assessment been made of the implications of likely reforms for applications that have previously been rejected by the review commission, which may well require reconsideration? Has any assessment been made of the implications for the workload of the Court of Appeal?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a number of very important questions, which will, of course, be answered by the interim chair when that name is announced. The workload of the Court of Appeal is an important factor in this, and the tests for how those cases are referred up to the Court of Appeal are important as well. As I said earlier, the answer to the question lies in both the Law Commission report and the work of the new interim chair.

Legal Aid Agency: Cybersecurity Incident

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 20th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, this cyberattack and its result have exposed the lamentable insecurity of the Legal Aid Agency data systems. The ramifications are serious. The personal information that goes into legal aid applications and is held by legal aid providers includes much highly confidential material, which can be used by criminals not just to embarrass but to defraud and, in some cases, harass applicants for legal aid. We are told that the attackers in this case accessed residential addresses, contact details, dates of birth, and employment and financial data—indeed, much of the material that identity checkers seek and criminals could profit from. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, said, it appears to have affected 2 million items of data and legal aid applications going back as far as 2010. In addition, as became clear in the House of Commons, that information would have included sensitive medical information. Indeed, that must be right, because many applicants for legal aid would include such information with their applications. Can the Minister say whether there are plans to establish a dedicated helpline or other support systems, and if so what support systems, for individuals who may seek advice or protection in the light of this attack?

Of course, our first condemnation is for the callous criminality of the attackers, whose actions exposed so many vulnerable individuals to risk. These cyberattacks appear, according to the Minister in the other place, to have come from organised crime. It would be helpful for the Minister, so far as possible and without jeopardising security, to give an account to the House of what steps the Ministry of Justice takes routinely and has taken in the light of this case to protect the data of those seeking to access legal aid.

This question is similar to one asked by the noble and learned Lord: will the MoJ carry out a full independent inquiry into this attack, and what can be done to restore public confidence in its future cybersecurity arrangements? We understand the need for the Legal Aid Agency’s systems to go offline in the short term, as they have, but can the Government say how long the shutdown of online services is likely to last and how far the legal aid system will be impacted through delays and in reduced ability to deal with its workload?

We should not underestimate the degree to which the MoJ’s IT systems are antiquated, inefficient, insecure and, frankly, unfit for purpose. We on these Benches agree that that results from a neglect of the system over years under the preceding Administration. As the Statement rightly points out, the Law Society has been complaining for years about the outdatedness of our legal aid IT systems. The £20 million promised for updating the agency’s systems will help. However, regrettably, I worry that there is some complacency about the sentence in the Statement that reads:

“At this stage, we believe that the breach is contained to the Legal Aid Agency’s systems; there are no indications that other parts of the justice system have been impacted”.


Can the Minister say whether the Government will now institute a survey of current IT systems across the department to consider their security? Will the department also institute a system of regular cybersecurity audits for the future, to ensure robust defence of its digital systems and to prevent recurrence of this breach?

More widely, this event should act as a wake-up call for government as a whole to investigate how far its IT systems can provide the public with a high standard of data security. We hope that the promised cybersecurity and resilience Bill will bring some improvement, but we will not keep citizens’ data secure without investing the necessary resources. The reality is that we are working with old and inefficient systems that, frankly, grow creakier and creakier, just as the ingenuity and criminality of the potential attackers becomes ever more sophisticated, not least as the value of personal data rises and the potential for its abuse becomes ever greater.

The Statement rightly reminds us that every organisation is at risk from this kind of criminal behaviour and government is not exempt. As a vital part of the social compact, it is a responsibility of government to keep the personal data it holds on individuals secure. If government fails to live up to that responsibility, it rightly forfeits public trust and we concerned are to know, from the Government, how they intend to retain that trust.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

I thank both the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord for their questions. I will endeavour to answer them as fully as I can. I say at the outset that I share their sense of concern about this breach. It is undoubtedly very serious—one of the more serious ones that have happened to Governments in recent years. I agree, of course, with the point that the noble and learned Lord made, that the primary responsibility is with the criminals who themselves undertook this hacking of the LAF systems.

I want to check and correct one point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen. He spoke about medical records. As far as we are aware, there are no medical records contained within this system. There is other information available, which is, of course, a great cause for concern, but there are no medical records that we are aware of.

The noble and learned Lord asked when Ministers were first made aware of this breach. The departmental staff stood up an immediate operational response upon being made aware and ministerial colleagues and I have been updated throughout. There is a cross-departmental response under way. But it is fair to say that the seriousness of the breach became evident only some time after we were made aware of the initial breach. It was when the situation worsened that it was decided to put the information in the public domain and report the incident to Parliament.

Noble Lords asked how many people have been affected. We have not put forward a number as such. However, they are right to say that we are talking about all the data going back to 2010. That is many thousands of people. The nature of the data is, indeed, personal and people need to take remedial action if they have had interactions with the Legal Aid Agency to make sure that their data is not compromised. So, if people try to contact them on numbers they do not recognise and so forth, they need to be suspicious and careful.

Another central question was about what the Government are advising people to do if they think they may be victims of this theft of data. The primary port of contact will be the providers themselves—the lawyers and barristers who have been using the Legal Aid Agency. They will be in a better position to advise the people who may be victims. However, if we are made aware of individual people who are particularly vulnerable, the MoJ or the Legal Aid Agency will also endeavour to contact them directly. But the primary source of information will be from the providers themselves.

The noble and learned Lord asked me to comment on the nature of the attack. I cannot do that because there is a criminal investigation under way. I will not comment or speculate on the motive either.

Both noble Lords asked about the current operational system. The current system is offline. We hope to get it online as soon as possible, but I am not in a position to give any commitment on that front. I can say that there are systems in place to ensure that the providers themselves will get paid, so that they can continue to work, but it will be a reduced method of payment. I do not mean that the amount of money is less but there will be less systemisation within the payment, if I may put it like that. Nevertheless, the payments will be made in the immediate future.

I reassure noble Lords that all the various government agencies have been informed about this. There is an ongoing risk assessment and there will be an update to Parliament when appropriate.

I can also tell the noble and learned Lord that the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland have been informed and are well aware of this. Although, as he rightly observed, they have stand-alone systems, there is overlap between the two systems. So, although their own systems will not be affected by this, it may be that they will have more restricted access to data from the Legal Aid Agency, which covers England and Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Marks, asked about a full independent inquiry. I cannot make that commitment, but I can absolutely say that this is being taken extremely seriously across government. There has been a review of systems in other parts of government and, as far as we know, there are no similar hacking attacks in other parts of government, although of course one should not be complacent about these things. I am absolutely sure that these reviews of the other systems will be ongoing, just to check that no future hacks become apparent.

I do not think it is fair for the noble Lord, Lord Marks, to say that there was a degree of complacency in the statement that we believe the breach is contained; that is an honestly held belief. The many professionals involved in containing this particular breach, but also looking across government, are very acutely aware of how systems need to be updated and kept under review, and there needs to be investment. The noble Lord mentioned the sum of money the Government are going to invest, but it is worth repeating the point made by my honourable friend Sarah Sackman that this breach came to light only because of the extra money we are currently putting into the system. It would not have come to light without that additional investment. But, of course, we want to go further, and we need to go further to make sure that the systems are updated as far as possible.

I do not want to make the obvious political points about the legacy systems. I think we all understand the position we are in. Nevertheless, this is a serious matter, we are not at the end of the road yet and I absolutely undertake that we will keep Parliament informed as the situation develops.

Ex-offenders: Reintegration

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Lichfield]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what support they are providing for ex-offenders to support their transition from life in prison and their reintegration into society.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, effective resettlement of prison leavers is crucial to reduce reoffending. This includes making sure that someone has a home, family links where appropriate, access to healthcare, a job or education, and timely access to benefits where needed. We have committed to ensuring that pre-release plans are in place for prison leavers to ensure that needs are identified and addressed appropriately. Community probation practitioners co-ordinate individual rehabilitation, supported by pre-release teams, ensuring that they receive appropriate provision through prison-based and commissioned rehabilitative services.

[The Lord Bishop of Lichfield]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Although most prisoners will of course be looking forward to their release, there will be those also for whom release will be difficult or even traumatic, particularly some of those who have served many years in prison and who may miss the settled routines of life inside. What work are His Majesty’s Government doing to help such ex-offenders strengthen their sense of belonging, meaning and identity following release?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for that question. It is a very profound one, because of course some prisoners do get institutionalised when they have served lengthy prison sentences. The answer to the question is putting in place accommodation, something for the prisoners to do with their time when they are released—either education or employment—and, where appropriate, encouraging ongoing family ties. That combination of support needs to be provided by the Probation Service, which I believe is the best way of encouraging long-term prisoners not to reoffend when they are released.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the problems highlighted by the right reverend Prelate’s Question are compounded by the prison overcrowding crisis? The need to use whatever space is available on the estate, wherever it may be, hampers access to suitable training courses, disrupts family and community ties, of which the noble Lord spoke, and makes it harder to prepare prisoners for release.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I agree with the noble Lord’s point, which is why my right honourable friend Shabana Mahmood made the announcement yesterday in which the Government committed to building three new prisons. Those had been announced by the previous Government, but yesterday money was committed to expedite those prisons. It is not because we want to fill those prisons up; it is because prisons need to be run at less than 100% capacity to enable all the rehabilitative activities that can be undertaken in prison to operate to reduce the chances of reoffending. So I agree with the point which the noble Lord made.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the right reverend Prelate on raising this issue, which is immensely important, much neglected and central to Christian teaching—an innovation from those Benches. I also congratulate the Government on appointing a Minister who has direct expertise in and commitment to this subject as Prisons Minister. I have looked back and I cannot find any occasion when this House or its committees have produced a study of training, rehabilitation and support for prisoners. Would the Minister welcome such a report, should your Lordships’ House decide to ask one of its committees to look into the issue?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I would welcome that. There have been numerous attempts to try to tie up the elements of what happens to prisoners as they leave prison. In the previous Government, there was a Through the Gate initiative, which tried to do the same thing. The current Government are trying to overcome this problem. It is very difficult; it is a resource-intensive thing to co-ordinate all the services to try to reduce the reoffending of prisoners. But it is worth pointing out that, when one looks at averages, there has been a slight reduction in the amount of reoffending over the last 20 years or so, which is encouraging. Nevertheless, it is a substantial problem and, although it is not for me to say, if the House were to want to look at this matter, I would welcome that.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I recently had a chance to visit Belmarsh as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Talking to some of the prisoners there, their plea was that they wanted training so as to have skills to take into the outside world. Does the Minister agree, and would he indicate that there is any way forward with our difficulties in achieving that?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, of course I agree with my noble friend. I, too, have visited Belmarsh and I agree with the point he makes about training. In fact, my noble friend Lord Timpson, who has, of course, great experience in these matters, has in his previous business life set up training facilities in prisons. One of the points that my noble friend makes is that now there are many other providers of training within prisons, and what we need is the capacity within our prison system to take advantage of those training opportunities.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest. I worked for more than 20 years advising the Sikh prison chaplaincy. The Sikh chaplaincy requires Sikh chaplains to liaise with prisoners about to be released and their home community and gurdwara to help find the prisoner work and accommodation on release. It works well, and the chaplain-general has commended the Sikh initiative, which has also been a subject of comment in the Times. Does the Minister agree that, if this initiative were extended to the work of other faiths, it would really help the prisoners and there would be a considerable fall in reoffending?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise the point that the noble Lord makes about the importance of the chaplaincy. My understanding of the chaplaincy is that it is multifaith. There are Sikh chaplains, if that is the right expression, but there are chaplains from other faiths as well and they work together, in my understanding, to try to enable resettlement. I know through personal experience some Christian ministers who work in chaplaincies who also facilitate reconnection with communities to try to help resettlement. So I absolutely agree with the point the noble Lord makes and thoroughly commend the work of the chaplaincy.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I ask the Minister about progress on de-bunching prisoner releases on Friday. He will be aware that prisoners who are due for release on Saturday or Sunday are released on a Friday, so three-sevenths of all releases happen under the shadow of the weekend. All parties agree that this is an unsatisfactory way of reintegrating people. Could we please find a way to let the House know exactly what is happening and what progress is being made to resolve this problem?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for asking that question. I am very aware of this issue. I was under the impression that the practice of releasing on Fridays had been substantially reduced. However, if that is not the case, I will write to him, but I understand the point he is making. I thought there had been provisions made in recent legislation to stop this.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the Probation Service is an important link in this chain, so could the Minister please update your Lordships’ House on progress on recruiting the many more additional probation officers that we need in order to handle the workload and the important job that they do?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I absolutely understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, is making. Last year, the Government recruited 1,000 new probation officers; in the current year, we aim to recruit 1,300 officers and my understanding is that we are on target to achieve that. Of course, it takes two or three years to train probation officers so that they can get the relevant experience and confidence, and that process is ongoing. We absolutely want to revitalise the Probation Service. That is absolutely central to our ambitions for greater use of community sentences in future.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, the most recent Probation Service data showed that around 40% of homeless ex-prisoners reoffend within a year, compared with 19% of those with stable housing. Can the Minister please explain, first, what data-driven adjustments are being made to improve outcomes for ex-prisoners, and, secondly, how the Government intend to track the success of reintegration programmes and collate the data?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Lord asks an important question and the answer lies in housing and accommodation. At the moment, there are three tiers of possible housing options available to prisoners. Community accommodation services are in either tier 1, 2 or 3. The key to resolving the issue is to get prisoners into one of those tiers of accommodation and then moving out of it as appropriate and, in the case of the third tier, after 12 weeks. Of course, moving out into settled accommodation requires the availability of that accommodation, and that availability varies across the country. Many other parts of society are competing for that accommodation. So we are very aware of the point that the noble Lord has made and the Government are doing their best to address restrictions on the housing that will support offenders when they leave prison.

Uncollected Financial Penalties

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is essential that financial penalties are collected and enforced. His Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service uses robust methods to do so, including taking money from an offender’s benefits or salary and seizing and selling goods. Offenders can be sent to prison for non-payment to the court. In 2023-24, HMCTS collected over £671 million in financial penalties. The Government are investing in the replacement of outdated IT systems and are also planning legislative changes which will reform the confiscation order regime.

[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for his Answer, but in March 2024 there were £4.4 billion-worth of unpaid criminal court fines, compensation orders, victim surcharges, et cetera. Does the Minister agree that steps should be taken urgently to deal with this unacceptable situation, which is grossly unfair on those who pay up and feeds scepticism in the judiciary and society at large about the effectiveness of non-custodial sentences?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that supplementary question. Of the £4.4 billion that she referred to, £2.7 billion is from confiscation orders. Of the £2.7 billion, £1.2 billion is purely interest—interest is paid at 8% on the confiscation order amount. There are legislative changes in the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently in the other place, but I think it is worth pointing out to my noble friend that, in existing legislation, there are only very limited circumstances where a Crown Court can judicially cancel an order, and it contains no powers to administratively cancel a confiscation order. That means that the confiscation order amount accrues over the years, including the interest. With respect to financial penalties, by which I mean fines, the picture is very different. Over a five-year period, 80% of all fines are collected, and that figure has remained flat over the last few years. While I accept that the overall number is increasing, that gives an unfair picture of the current situation, and the Government are addressing the reasons why that is an unfair reflection of the position.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, it has always been a challenge to collect fines, because they are often imposed on people who cannot pay them. One of the areas in which progress can be made is criminal assets. This is usually around organised crime, which is motivated by profit. What I think the enforcement agencies have not invested in—and I invite the Minister to inquire—is having forensic accountants, who are people who can trace assets in often complex financial arrangements. At one stage, the NCA had one, as did Police Scotland. Can the Minister find out, or tell us, how many forensic accountants there are? People may not know, but the police can keep half of the cash they seize and 15% of other assets that are confiscated—not for themselves—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. It is worth saying that, if somebody fails to pay a fine and they are imprisoned for that failure to pay, then the fine is written off. However, if somebody fails to pay a confiscation order and they are sent to prison, the compensation order amount is not written off. They are different. The other point worth making goes to the point that he made about the work of forensic accountants. A lot of the assets which confiscation orders are applied to are hidden assets, so there is an estimate—an informed guess, if I can put it like that—of the amount when making that confiscation order. Nevertheless, I take the point that he makes in his question. If I can add anything on the number of forensic accountants available to give advice to the court, I will write to him.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that embassies across London owe a total of nearly £150 million in unpaid fines and charges? Obviously, under the Vienna convention, embassies are exempt from taxes but not from these fines and charges. What will the Government do about it?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

What the Government will do is write to the noble Lord. After much time in this House, I know that this issue comes up very regularly. If there was a simple answer to that question, I am sure it would have been found. Nevertheless, it is a real issue. It undermines confidence in the parking fines system, and it undermines confidence within the wider community if certain groups are not paying their fines. It is a serious issue, and I understand that. If there is more I can say, I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, said, many financial penalties go uncollected. Does the noble Lord agree that we are, in respect of such offenders, imposing far too many financial penalties? Should we not be making more use of community service and the probation services in those cases where there is no hope of collecting payment?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

It is an interesting question—one which I used to grapple with regularly when I sat as a magistrate in Westminster. The noble Lord is asking that the sentencer increase the sentence from a fine to a community order, increasing the sentence for certain people who are unable to pay their fines. It may be that this is taken into account when sentencers make that judgement, but it is an inflationary—if I could use that word—solution to a problem. Nevertheless, of course, when sentencers impose fines, they have to take into account the means of those whom they sentence.

[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

My Lords, there is £5 billion-worth of bitcoin cryptocurrency in government accounts seized from organised crime relating to Jian Wen. Please allow me to repeat that: £5 billion that is in the Government's bank account. I ask a similar question to the one that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont of Lerwick, posed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer four months ago: what are the Government’s plans for this windfall?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I do not know the answer to that question. If the £5 billion is in the Government’s accounts, I do not know how free they are to use that money. If there is anything more I can add to that answer, I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, when my noble friend writes to the noble Lord opposite about unpaid parking fines by embassies in London, would he also write to me and include in my letter the details of unpaid congestion charges by embassies in London? That is an amount that has escalated almost out of sight. As the noble Lord opposite has said, this is not a tax; it is a payment for services provided in London.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, if I am able to find those figures, I will indeed write to my noble friend.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, since 2018 only seven unexplained wealth orders were issued, and not a single penny of wealth has been recovered since 2019. This seems to undermine the Government’s offensive against unexplained wealth’s illicit financial flows. Can the Minister explain whether anything has changed since the Criminal Finances Act was introduced in 2017?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. The figures he quoted reflect how difficult it is to track down the money when criminals are hiding it. It takes hugely intensive work, and it is something I have personally received presentations on. The issue is one of resourcing to a certain extent, but there is no lack of will to pursue criminals who have unexplained wealth. They need to be tracked down and charged as appropriate.

Property (Digital Assets etc) Bill [HL]

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

3rd reading
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

That the Bill be now read a third time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to provide an update on the territorial extent of the Bill. The focus of the Bill is on clarifying personal property law, which is devolved to Northern Ireland. I am pleased to confirm to the House that the Northern Ireland Assembly has granted consent for the Bill’s extension to Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to this Bill, which colleagues will know has undergone extensive scrutiny by the Special Public Bill Committee since its introduction in September. The Bill underscores our commitment to fostering innovation, both now and in the future. It supports our efforts to ensure that the jurisdictions of England and Wales, and of Northern Ireland, remain at the forefront of jurisdictions globally, providing a flexible legal framework for digital assets that can react to their dynamic nature and to technologies not yet imagined or created. By modernising the law of personal property, it will enable more efficient dispute resolution by removing the need for courts to discuss questions around categorisation. It will also attract international businesses to use these jurisdictions and promote economic growth.

I take this opportunity to thank those who have engaged with and supported the passage of the Bill, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, who chaired the Special Public Bill Committee. He expertly led us through some very nuanced and technical issues, and I also thank the committee’s clerk, Matthew Burton. That leads me on to thanking the other members of the committee, the noble Lords, Lord Bassam, Lord Cryer, Lord Shamash, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Holmes, the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and, last but not least, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I am certain that each has found the process as fascinating as I have, and I enjoyed playing a part in ensuring that our law continues to be fit for purpose in an increasingly technological world.

I give particular thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, who raised many interesting areas for the committee to consider and helped to ensure that the Bill passes through the House of Lords in its best possible form. I must also thank the Law Commission, which undertook two extensive consultations as part of its project on digital assets. In particular, I thank Laura Burgoyne and Chris Long, who did an excellent review that helped the Government make a fully informed decision to take the Bill forward. I also thank my private office—Melissa Leonard—and the Bill team: Bill manager Harry McNeill-Adams, Susannah Keogh, Alicia Love and Jonathan Fear. I am hugely grateful to all those who contributed to the evidence collected by the committee, both written and verbal, and ensured that the committee could fully assess the Bill and that the best possible version of it is going to the other place.

The result of these efforts is a simple but elegant Bill. It will support our efforts to remain a pre-eminent jurisdiction, with English and Welsh law and Northern Irish law being the global law of choice. It will signal that the UK is a leader in innovation and technology. It is important that the Bill passes into law as quickly as possible, so we can capitalise on this. We pass this Bill on in excellent condition, and I hope that it can complete its passage and become law as swiftly as possible. I beg to move.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

My Lords, as the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, who is not in his place but currently on the Woolsack, said on Report, the two clauses of this Bill fully reflect neither the nearly 1,000 pages of learning that the Law Commission produced on the subject of digital assets, nor the almost equal volume of written and oral evidence received by the Special Public Bill Committee, variously approving the Law Commission’s approach and characterising the Bill as pointless or even dangerous. That the Committee, which I chaired, was able to consider these issues and debate them out with a degree of thoroughness in the Moses Room prior to a further debate, largely thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on Report, is a tribute to our clerk, Matthew Burton, and all members of the committee—including not least the Minister—whose collective expertise was remarkable.

My only remaining concern is that, since the committee was entirely lacking in female members, it is entirely possible that we have succeeded in missing something obvious. The work of this House is now complete. I was delighted to hear just now that the Bill has been endorsed in Northern Ireland, and I wish it well on its onward journey.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, this was indeed a fascinating Committee in which to participate. I have no doubt that this effectively one-clause Bill will make an important contribution to the development of the law in a fast-developing field and assist judges and litigants in ensuring that necessary protection is given to activities and things in the digital sphere—including those as yet unimagined—which might otherwise fail to be protected. It is important for fintech, as we have heard, and it is very important for the City of London in retaining its place in the financial world in which we live.

The evidence we heard from interested parties, not just lawyers, raised a body of issues which took some digesting, and my noble friend Lord Holmes raised important questions. However, under the clear and thoughtful guidance of our distinguished chair, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, we found, with little disagreement, that—apart from a small change to the Bill’s title—we should leave it well alone. The Law Commission is to be congratulated on its hard work and on reducing a vast body of material to this very crisp Bill. We found it small but perfectly formed.

In all this process, we had the inestimable help of the committee clerk, Matthew Burton, to whom I am most grateful, not least for his excellent summary of the evidence and issues to help our final deliberations. It is with no hesitation that we on this side commend this Bill and hope it will be passed swiftly.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Bill has the support of all noble Lords who have spoken. I note that three Whips are sitting in my presence, and I am sure they will have heard the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, on the lack of female members of the committee and will see whether we can do better next time. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on his questions, as I am unable to answer them right now. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, asked about the schedule. I also cannot answer that question, but I suspect it will go down very soon. If there is any update, I will provide it to him.

I conclude in the spirit of agreement and endorse the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, that this is a small but perfectly formed Bill, but it will have one hell of an impact. We want to make sure that it makes the best possible impact. I beg to move.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Criminal Cases Review Commission

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Garnier]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reform the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is essential that the public have confidence in the CCRC and its ability to investigate potential miscarriages of justice fairly and impartially. An interim chair is being appointed and the Lord Chancellor will ask them to conduct a review of the operation of the organisation. As part of its current review of criminal appeals, the Law Commission will be reporting on the role and function of the CCRC. The Government will carefully consider any recommendations put forward.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister share the view of the chief executive of the CCRC, given to the House of Commons Justice Select Committee last week, that she thought it appropriate to come into the office only one or two days every couple of months? Does he agree that the CCRC needs real leadership? It needs an executive chairman with legal standing, full-time salaried commissioners, and higher quality and better paid caseworkers, and it needs to get rid of the predictive test for referring cases to the Court of Appeal. The CCRC is vital to the justice system of this country. It is in a state of complete collapse and it needs gripping by this Government.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

As I said in my first Answer to the noble and learned Lord, the intention is to appoint an interim chair who will conduct a review of the way the CCRC is working, and that will be done in collaboration with the ongoing review by the Law Commission. I listened to the evidence that was given to the Select Committee last week. Clearly, how it chooses to conduct its affairs is a matter for the CCRC itself. A new interim chair is to be appointed, probably for a period of about 18 months; that, together with the Law Commission review, may result in changes at the CCRC.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, the CCRC is about people’s lives. There are currently 20 cases before it for the Post Office Capture victims—this was the system before Horizon. The last Government agreed to overturn the convictions of Horizon victims. On Capture, this Government have referred victims to the CCRC. Many of these are elderly people—these cases go back to the early 1990s. What more can be done to speed this up, because some of these people are going to die before they get justice?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The Ministry of Justice has increased the CCRC’s budget year on year since 2020-21. The budget for 2025-26 has been set at £10.1 million, which is an increase of 38% since 2021-22. We recognise the need for increased resource, a recommendation made by the report to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, put his name. That report made other recommendations, which will be taken into account in the review that will be undertaken.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, someone who works for me may have been unjustly sent to prison well over 10 years ago. Is it not time that the entire commission is set aside and new people appointed, with everything done as a matter of some urgency?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness is right to say that there is concern with the CCRC. The Lord Chancellor has recognised that and has put in place the framework, if I can put it like that, to consider change, which may be radical change—we wait to see. There certainly are concerns with the operation of that body.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, Andrew Malkinson served 17 years for a rape he did not commit. The CCRC is supposed to be the last hope for victims of miscarriages of justice; a safety net to ensure that wrongful convictions are examined with diligence. An independent review demonstrated that the CCRC carelessly missed several opportunities to overturn that conviction. In her recent evidence to the Commons Justice Committee, the chief executive demonstrated a complete lack of the required diligence. Is it not now time for her to go and to be replaced, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, suggested, by a full-time, executive, highly qualified chair?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise the point that the noble Lord made about Andrew Malkinson, who suffered a terrible miscarriage of justice. I understand there has been an interim payment made to him and that it is currently under consideration what the final award will be. My understanding is that the CCRC commissioned its own separate independent review into its handling of Malkinson’s issue and the applications, led by Chris Henley KC. The review, published in July 2024, set out multiple organisational and individual failings leading to that miscarriage of justice. That forms part of the overall review to which I have referred in earlier answers.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, following on from the sixth recommendation—recommendation F—of Chris Henley’s report of July of last year, what steps is the commission taking in particular to track and revisit unsuccessful forensic inquiries, including tests which do not produce profiles or produce only partial and incomplete profiles, which produce complete profiles that do not produce a match, or which produce developments in areas other than DNA? Is the commission now acting on advice from the national DNA database? I appreciate these are detailed questions. If the Minister cannot answer today, will he please write to me and place a copy in the Library?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for the question. I think I am right in saying that there has been additional money put into the forensic side of the work done by the CCRC. If there is additional information which I need to impart to the House or to the noble Lord, I will put that in a letter.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, it is widely agreed that the CCRC has been failing, not just for a year but for decades. The Malkinson case demonstrated that, as he was rejected in 2009 and rejected in 2018. Is it not right that the first step to do something about the CCRC was taken by the Lord Chancellor, in forcing out the chair who failed to acknowledge the problems of the CCRC? My second question is this. There are urgent cases, as my noble friend has referred to. It is not just that case but, for example, the Lucy Letby case. What steps are the Government going to take to ensure that, while the review is going on, the public can have confidence in their dealing with those sorts of cases?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble and learned friend. It was of course an independent board which was appointed by my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor. She acted on the advice of the independent board, and the chair of that organisation stepped down. My noble and learned friend asked about the Lucy Letby case. That is a case which I understand is under active consideration, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on it.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Legal Aid: Domestic Abuse) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2025

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 13 and 20 March be approved.

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 6 May.

Motions agreed.