Public Spaces Protection Orders

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to reports that (1) at least 48 councils employ private companies to issue penalties for public spaces protection orders, and (2) many councils pay those companies per fine issued which incentivises companies to issue more penalties than may be necessary, what plans they have to introduce statutory guidance prohibiting this practice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, it is for local authorities to determine how to operate the powers granted to them in legislation. Contracting enforcement to third parties is a common arrangement and it is for the local authority to ensure it is just. Contractors are bound by the same legal obligations and safeguards in legislation as the councils themselves.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, that is a classic dusty reply from the Home Office. What a contrast with Defra: its guidance on littering, which is a criminal offence, says that incentivising enforcement undermines

“the legitimacy of the enforcement regime”.

Wherever it has occurred, fining for profit has been associated with cases of injustice and now Defra is putting that in statutory guidance. Why is the Home Office not going to do this in its own guidance on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is worth reminding the House about public space protection orders, which are intended to deal with a particular nuisance or problem, in a specific area, that is detrimental to the local community’s quality of life by imposing conditions on the use of that area which apply to everyone. So the Home Office did publish statutory guidance to support local areas to make effective use of these powers. The guidance sets out the importance of focusing of the needs of the victim and the local community, as well as ensuring that the relevant legal tests are met. I repeat that it is for local authorities to determine how to enforce PSPOs and that can include the use of private contractors. Local authorities are obliged to follow the rules set out in the Public Contract Regulations 2015 in their appointment of such companies.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, Kingdom Security issued 553 fines on behalf of North East Lincolnshire Council in the last year alone. One of those £100 fines was to a pensioner who was cycling in Grimsby town centre—something he had done for the last 40 years and there was no clear signage to say that anything had changed. It may be that the cycling ban is a good thing, but surely a warning would have been sufficient—except that the more fines that are issued, the more the company is rewarded. The Government need to take a look at this increasingly common but unnecessarily aggressive approach.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I would obviously not comment on the specific case raised by the noble Earl, but I would say that local authorities are obliged to follow the rules set out in the Public Contract Regulations. Anybody who has been issued with a penalty enforcement notice which they feel is unjust can submit their arguments as to why they should not have been issued with the fixed-penalty notice to a magistrates’ court for consideration.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I need to declare my interests as in the register; specifically, in relation to this, I am still the leader of a council, South Holland district in Lincolnshire. We are just about to enter into a contract with a private sector company to enforce all of our litter and fly-tipping regulations, and I will be extremely disappointed if they do not attack that with an aggressive attitude rather than a tame one. There will be one or two people who will be unjustly caught out by the system, and they will have the ability to appeal against it.

Every year, councils across this country waste over £650 million of everybody’s money on clearing up behind people who do not care about their neighbours and the places where they live. I strongly urge the Government and the Minister, if they have any time to spare, to look at making sure that magistrates enforce more heavily when we catch the serious offenders, as opposed to letting them off with relatively light fines.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that different perspective, and I absolutely commit to looking into it. I think it is worth reminding people what public spaces protection orders are intended to deal with. It is a particular nuisance or problem in a specific area that is detrimental to the local community’s quality of life. I do not think these conditions are unreasonable.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

Sorry, my Lords, but this fining for profit really is a scandal. In north Wales, there is a massive social cost and the North Wales Against Kingdom Security Facebook group has described the effect of local private enforcement on this region. Never mind this idea of people who do not care about the neighbourhood; the group says:

“These operatives terrorised the elderly and vulnerable in my area. One 94-year-old lady was fined when a tissue blew out of the bottom of her wheelchair. Some elderly people stopped taking their dogs out because they were so afraid of being fined”.


Will the Minister at least agree to read the Manifesto Club report that details this? Defra—unless you think it does not understand it—has made a decision, so why does the Home Office not do the same?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Well, I have read the Manifesto report to which the noble Baroness refers—all 48 pages of it. I am afraid that I did not necessarily agree with all the conclusions, some of which required—shall we say?—a bout of syllogistic gymnastics to arrive at. I did look at some of the named councils’ websites and found limited public outrage—maybe I was looking in the wrong place. However, I do think that no one should be terrorised in the way described by the noble Baroness.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, Members of the House of Commons voted in a free vote last week to provide nationwide protection for medical premises providing abortion from disruptive and harassing protests and behaviour. Rather than requiring each locality to apply for an individual public space protection order, will the Minister work with Members across the House to ensure that the provision is supported as the Public Order Bill makes its way through this House?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am very happy to commit to the noble Lord to do that. Indeed, such discussions are ongoing.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thought that the Liberal Democrats stood for local decision-making. Surely, if the Government overrule local councils on matters such as this, localism ceases to mean anything at all.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. I would have thought that the voters would be the key factor in determining whether this is an appropriate policy. I am sure some would prefer fining for effect; some might prefer to vote otherwise.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that commission is generally paid to encourage people to sell? In the financial services sector, for instance, it has led to many instances of mis-selling. If the Minister accepts that paying commission does encourage sales—often mis-selling—does he not accept that Defra may be right in its position?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I said earlier, the contracts that are awarded to these companies are governed by quite stringent guidance and rules. It is a matter for local authorities and the contracting companies.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, if Defra is able to do this, why can the Home Office not do it? Defra is also very close to local government and clearly regards this as the wrong thing for local councils to be doing. Why does the Home Office not regard it as the wrong thing for councils to be doing?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Well, the noble Lord has already asked me that and I think I have already answered. The Home Office has provided statutory guidance to support local areas to make effective use of these powers. I go back to my earlier answer: the local areas are obliged to follow the rules set out in the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 before appointing such companies.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister help me, for clarity: does the relevant guidance prohibit or advise against incentivising enforcement for profit motives rather than because it is the right application of the law?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

No, the relevant guidance does not, because, as I say, this is a matter for the local authorities. As I understand it, there is no mention of profit.

Police National Computer

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what procurement criteria they used in awarding Fujitsu a £48 million contract to upgrade the Police National Computer; and whether their decision to award that contract took into account that company’s role in developing the Horizon software for the Post Office.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, every contract award is considered on its own merit and in line with procurement regulations and evidence of historic supply and delivery. The police national computer is a critical service used by UK policing and other agencies to maintain public safety and security. The contract to replace PNC mainframe hardware technology, ensuring the future of the service, was awarded following market engagement on grounds of time, cost and risk to continuity of service.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Government have awarded contracts to Fujitsu of over £3.5 billion since 2013, including nearly £500 million this year, of which £48 million was on the police national computer. Considering that Fujitsu’s Horizon software was at the heart of the Post Office sub-postmaster scandal, why do the Government believe that Fujitsu software has the necessary integrity for the critical data in the PNC? How is a business-as-usual approach on the award of contracts before the official Post Office inquiry concludes prudent? Lastly, how does this government largesse give Fujitsu any incentive to contribute to the massive compensation cost for sub-postmasters, which is set to fall on the taxpayer?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. The police national computer has been hosted on Fujitsu mainframe technology for over 30 years, and existing Fujitsu-leased hardware technology would not have been viable to use beyond March 2022. It required urgent replacement, which is why Fujitsu was selected. The market engagement exercise held in 2020 to review options to replace the Fujitsu hardware and support found no viable alternative solutions, and that is why Fujitsu received this contract—which, I should also stress, is making up the difference between now and when the new police national computer comes into operation. I could go on, but there was basically no alternative.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has given us a very interesting answer. Basically, he said that it came as a big shock to the Home Office that this equipment had expired. Can he tell us what confidence he has in the Home Office’s management of IT contracts of various sizes—bearing in mind, for example, the grotesque overspending on the replacement of the Airwave system for emergency services communication, and the fact that that contract has overrun by five or six years already, with no sign that the costs are going to be met?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that that is not what I said to the noble Baroness or to the House at all. I have confidence that Fujitsu will deliver on this.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests, and I support the noble Lord, Lord Harris. The emergency services network is technology rather than IT. Not only is it five years delayed, but I think the costs have risen by five times, from around £2 billion to over £10 billion. As yet, I am afraid that the Government are trapped in a terrible contract with Motorola, which is delivering a legacy solution but is also charged with delivering the new one. Unfortunately, it is being paid £250 million more for the old system per year, so there is no great incentive. It is a great worry, not only for the Government but for the police, that this system is not yet delivered.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I understand where the noble Lord is coming from, and I commend him for his work on this and other matters. Obviously, I am here more to talk about the subject of the Question, but I will take his concerns back, find out more information and write to him.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, to return to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, about Horizon, the words that come to my mind are: “scandalous”, “miscarriage of justice”, “broken lives”, “families financially ruined”—and yet Fujitsu has paid nothing. Talking has gone on long enough. I know there are legal cases, but should not the Government stop any contracts to Fujitsu? It is just morally wrong.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend is right to point out that we are trying to get to the bottom of the Horizon issue. That is why Sir Wyn Williams has been tasked to hold his statutory inquiry. Fujitsu is a core participant and is co-operating fully. Accountability depends on evidence, so I think it is proper to let Sir Wyn hear it before judging any possible consequences.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, was any consideration given by the Government to the public perception of awarding such a vital contract to a company with such a shocking record? Can the Minister confirm clearly whether Fujitsu was the only company that actually bid for this contract? If that is the case, how can we be assured of a genuinely competitive process? How will this improve standards? How do we get good value for money and end up with results which, when you consider the role of this company, is truly shocking? I endorse all the words of the noble Lord, Lord Polak: it is appalling that this company can get anywhere near another government contract.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I said earlier in answer to another question, it was the only viable alternative. Other companies were invited in and, for reasons most of which were around the time it would take to implement new systems, Fujitsu offered the only solution. Of course, I agree with the public perception argument; however, I do not think we had any alternative.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, given that the flaws in Horizon software by Fujitsu were the cause of an awful lot of distress and misspent money, are the Government confident that so far there have been no similar mistakes on the police national computer?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The Government are confident. There has been one incident of data loss, but it was a human error, as opposed to a software error and all that data has been recovered. So, yes, the Government are confident.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Horizon scandal involved 736 innocent sub-postmasters being prosecuted; four suicides; many more individuals and families torn apart by the prolonged cover-up of technical problems; and a cost to taxpayers of more than £1 billion so far. I know this Government’s reputation for financial probity is at a very low ebb, but can the Minister explain how Fujitsu was able to land this complex and sensitive contract when the Government had removed it from the list of preferred suppliers in the last year?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have to say again that I think I have answered most of the noble Baroness’s question already. Fujitsu is not a preferred supplier, but it is able to enter open competitions for government business. Fujitsu has not been found guilty of any fraud or other crime related to Horizon and is complying with all inquiries. There was no viable alternative.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful that my noble friend accepts the public perception point, because more taxpayers’ money is going into this company at the moment. Inquiries take a long time, but in relation to other inquiries, such as contaminated blood, there has been a process to expedite payments and, as the noble Baroness has outlined, some people have taken their own lives. Surely, we should expedite the public funds that need to be in the pockets of those people harmed by Post Office and potentially Fujitsu.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend. So far, to date, the Government and Post Office have made good progress on delivering compensation to postmasters through the scheme fairly and quickly—82% of eligible claimants have now received an offer, and £52 million has been offered in total. I accept that it is not enough, but it is being done.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have presided over the economy and vital sensitive infrastructure, including tech infrastructure, for 12 years. If, as the Minister suggests, there was no viable alternative, why not?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Unfortunately, as I said, this relates to the delay in the rollout of the new system. The new system was delayed because of unforeseen complexity. I should state for the record that statistics around the police national computer are mind-boggling in their complexity: 30 million people’s information; 68 million vehicle records; 61 million driving licence holder records; 1.34 million daily transactions; 114 million checks per annum. It has to work; therefore, there was no viable alternative.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, could the Minister tell the House whether external consultants were involved in deciding that this contract should go to Fujitsu and, if so, how much were they paid for coming to the rather defeatist conclusion that there was no alternative?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The process was subject to all the usual Cabinet Office rules. I do not know how much external consultants were paid; I will find out.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm—I think he has been trying to tell us—that Fujitsu has an unassailable monopoly on this contract?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

No, it does not have an unassailable monopoly. It obviously has a long history with the police national computer. When the police national computer finally breathes its last, its monopoly effectively does the same.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

Will the noble Lord agree that over the last century pretty well every government contract that has been put out becomes a monopoly? Is it not time that we had a new approach to how such contracts are handed out?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

That sounds like a very sensible suggestion, and I will take it back to the department. I have not necessarily been around for as long as the noble Lord described.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse: Final Report

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. Last Thursday, the report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse was published. It concludes seven years of investigation into institutional failure across England and Wales to protect and safeguard children from child sexual abuse.

I want to thank the chair of the inquiry, Professor Alexis Jay, and her whole team for their fearless dedication and commitment in uncovering generations of horrendous societal, professional and institutional failings. I have written to Professor Jay and want to meet with her in the coming weeks to discuss her findings.

Above all, I want to extend my profound gratitude to the thousands of victims and survivors who have come forward to share their testimonies and experiences with the inquiry. That took immense courage. We will honour that courage by keeping their voices front and centre in everything we do and in overseeing a radical improvement in how this crime is dealt with and prevented. The whole House will be deeply moved by the reasons that victims and survivors gave for wanting to share their stories. They wanted their experiences to be acknowledged, to be listened to and to be taken seriously; they wanted to protect other children from suffering as they have suffered. Yet they also wanted not to be defined by this experience and to find, as one survivor put it, “life after abuse”. Madam Deputy Speaker, they are heroic.

Nothing—nothing—is more wicked than hurting a child, and there is no worse dereliction of duty than failing to protect a child. The report reveals horrific abuse of children. It makes for devastating and distressing reading. It finds that organisations have put their reputations ahead of protecting vulnerable children—either turning a blind eye or actively covering up abuse. That is inexcusable.

I am a father of three children and this report has made for very difficult reading. I cannot imagine the pain that victims have been through. Madam Deputy Speaker, I say this on behalf of the Government and all Governments who came before: to all the victims who have suffered this horrendous abuse, I am truly sorry.

The inquiry heard from more than 7,300 victims and survivors. It investigated abuse over not only the last seven years but several decades. The report makes a wide range of recommendations, including greater accountability, increased reporting, better redress for victims, an increased focus on bringing the perpetrators of these abhorrent acts to justice, and a stronger voice from government on this issue. The Government will take all these recommendations, and the insights provided by brave survivors, seriously.

Getting this right will mean everyone redoubling their efforts and working more closely together—all of government, the police, the health and care system, local authorities, schools, and all other interested parties. I will convene meetings with Ministers across Whitehall to drive that change. Our new child protection ministerial group, set up following the care review, will champion children’s safety at every level and provide the leadership to oversee vital reforms across children’s social care. Several government departments have been core participants in the inquiry, and we have been working to respond in real time to recommendations already made during the course of the inquiry.

The actions that we have taken include the Government’s tackling child sexual abuse strategy, published in January last year; driving initiatives to increase reporting of this too often hidden crime, including awareness-raising campaigns, and to improve the confidence and capabilities of frontline professionals to identify and respond to child sexual abuse; ensuring that education and safeguarding professionals are better equipped and supported in identifying harmful sexual behaviours and protecting children from peer-on-peer abuse and harm; targeting offenders by investing in the National Crime Agency, GCHQ and new technology, and by giving the police stronger powers; and providing better support to victims—committing to a new Victims Bill and increased funding for specialised support services.

The conclusion of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse marks the end of a vital period of reflection and learning. It must also mark the start of the next chapter in how society confronts and defeats this evil. Nothing must be allowed to get in the way, be it inertia, misplaced cultural sensitivities, indifference, self-interest or cowardice from those whose job it is to protect children.

In fact, it is the job of every adult to do all they can to protect children. Anything less is a profound moral failing, let alone a professional or institutional failing. Walking by on the other side is never acceptable. Would-be abusers need to know that they will be caught and punished. Victims need to know that it is never their fault and that they will be heard and protected.

I have laid a copy of the inquiry’s report in Parliament. It is only right that the Government now take time to carefully consider its findings and recommendations in full. We will respond comprehensively and in line with the inquiry’s deadline, but let me make a promise now: I will use all available levers to protect our children and right the wrongs exposed by the inquiry’s findings. I will do all in my power to improve how law enforcement and the criminal justice system respond to child sexual abuse. I will work with my ministerial colleagues and across party lines to hold organisations to account, bring perpetrators to justice, and support victims and survivors with compassion and total care.

Where we can act more quickly, we will. That is why we have already announced that, through the support for victims and survivors of child sexual abuse fund, we are allocating up to £4.5 million over three years to seven organisations to support victims and survivors. The fund is only the start in addressing the inquiry’s recommendations but it is another step towards ensuring that we are providing vital support for children and young people who have experienced sexual abuse, adult survivors, and parents and carers of victims. It is also just one part of the more than £60 million a year that the Home Office is investing in tackling this crime.

Child sexual abuse is a terrible but preventable crime, and we must prevent it. We will do so with the recommendations of this inquiry in front of us and the words of heroic survivors ringing in our ears. I commend this Statement to the House.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. This seven-year Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse sheds light on extraordinary and appalling institutional failings. I want to thank the right honourable Theresa May MP for establishing this inquiry in the first place, as well as Professor Alexis Jay, the chair, and her panel, and, most of all, the survivors and victims who selflessly came forward because they wanted to prevent what had happened to them happening to anyone else.

This is a catalogue of failure to protect children, failure to listen to children and failure to believe children. There must be a change of culture, both in society and in those institutions which put their reputations before protecting children. We on these Benches are also truly sorry. All Governments have failed these survivors and victims, along with the police, health and social services, and local authorities. We have all let down the victims and survivors of child sexual abuse.

The physical and emotional damage these children have suffered has led to a lifetime of suffering. The Home Secretary said that the perpetrators will be “caught and punished” and that “all available levers” in his power, including the police and criminal justice system will be used to bring offenders to justice. Can I ask the Minister how that will be brought about when there is a lack of police resources, the police are already overstretched and the Crown Prosecution Service does not have enough lawyers? The proportion of criminal cases overall resulting in prosecution is falling and there are serious backlogs in the courts. Will the Government increase the resources to the criminal justice system, for example, those available to the police and Crown Prosecution Service? Will the Government ask those institutions to prioritise child sexual abuse cases?

It is right that we should say sorry to the victims and survivors, but we should also not forget those falsely accused whose lives and reputations were seriously damaged as the police lurched from not doing enough to the opposite extreme. Those making false allegations damaged genuine victims as well as those they wrongly accused. Every victim must be protected, cared for and believed while the police engage in an objective search for the truth.

I shall mention three specific issues. First, will the Government introduce an effective statutory duty to report child sexual abuse?

Secondly, when it comes to unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, as has already been said, they are being placed in inappropriate accommodation in hotels where those looking after them have not been DBS checked. More than 100 have gone missing. In going missing, they are vulnerable to sexual abuse. In the Home Secretary’s Statement, he said that

“there is no worse dereliction of duty than failing to protect a child”,

but the Home Office has not been protecting these children by allowing them to go missing. What are the Government doing to ensure that this is stopped?

Thirdly, on prosecutions, the Home Secretary talked about the number of convictions for possession of indecent images of children increasing by 39%. But what about the number of children being rescued from abuse and the children in those indecent images? What about the prosecutions of those producing the images, not just those in possession of them?

There were 2 million pages of evidence and 107 recommendations. It will take time to fully process and action all those recommendations. That must not be lost in the current political turmoil. Child sexual exploitation is endemic and increasing. As the report says:

“this is not just a national crisis, but a global one.”

Urgent action is needed to reverse the increasing numbers of children being abused. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will regularly update the House and not wait until all the recommendations have been addressed?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for a large number of questions. I will do my best to get to all of them in the time available.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, that of course there are many thousands of other victims. We should be thinking about those who were unable, for whatever reason, to come forward, as well. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, there were an enormous number of submissions. Once again, I commend those who did and their bravery.

The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked me about the Online Safety Bill. I cannot confirm that it will be given expedited progress through this House. However, as the noble Lord noted, I believe it is on Report in the other place next week. We will be working with DCMS, particularly in light of this report.

In terms of cuts to the NCA, I do not know how it will be managing its budget. What I can say is that the Government have committed to a £20 million per annum uplift to that budget, which is going through. Whether that impacts staff numbers I cannot really say. I apologise for not having that information to hand. When we do, I am sure we will be able to come back to the House with it.

The noble Lord also asked me to accept the damage done by cuts. I am afraid I am going to refer back to an answer I gave in a debate last Thursday. The world has changed, and a lot of these crimes have developed as a result of the changes we were just discussing regarding the online world, so the responses will have to change. It would be inappropriate of me to use hindsight to say how the world might have been had things been done in a different way, given that the world has changed enormously. I cannot do that.

A number of questions were asked about the mandatory duty. I think the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, called it a statutory duty. This is going to be looked at. The Government have committed to look at all the various remaining recommendations. I remind noble Lords that 107 recommendations were made and 87 have been already actioned because they came out before the publication of the final report. The Government have committed to look at the remaining 20 and respond to them all within the six-month period. That is what we will be doing.

I understand the arguments for mandatory reporting. The inquiry’s report powerfully draws out the systemic failures of institutions to treat child sexual abuse seriously, as both noble Lords have noted, and to properly report allegations of child sexual abuse. As I have just said, we are committed to supporting front-line professionals working with children and to making sure they feel confident and equipped with the right resources and training to identify and respond to concerns or cases of child sexual abuse.

I could go on about this. There is one little caveat I would like to make. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, suggested that the Labour Party was calling for this in 2014. In 2016, there was a consultation on mandatory reporting; I do not know if he remembers that. The evidence was very mixed. There were plenty of principled reasons from high-profile organisations which have a vested interest in this particular subject, which were not necessarily in favour of it. All these things have to be considered, and I am very happy to share those statistics with him afterwards if he would like.

Both noble Lords asked me about the criminal justice system and the various numbers. Again, there were calls for more money which obviously I am unable to answer. However, I can answer a little regarding the numbers of prosecutions and offences committed. I think my right honourable friend the Home Secretary referred to this in his speech. There were 103,496 child offences recorded by the police in the year to March 2022. It is a horrific number and a 16% increase on the previous year to March 2021.

However, there has been an increase, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, noted, in the number of convictions for indecent images. That number has increased by 39%. It is still a small number; I acknowledge that it is too small. I cannot say what has been happening to the victims of those images. I would like to be able to give him more information. I will investigate and come back to him if I can. I could go on in terms of the numbers, but, frankly, it is pretty horrible, and I think we should move on.

A question on unaccompanied asylum seekers was asked of me. On average, unaccompanied children seeking asylum are moved to long-term care within 15 days of arriving in a hotel. Obviously, we know that more needs to be done. That is why we are working closely with local authorities to increase the number of placements available and offer councils £6,000 for every child they can provide accommodation for. Any child going missing is obviously extremely serious and we work around the clock with the police and local authorities to urgently locate them and ensure that they are safe.

There is a lot of work being done around public awareness already, to which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, referred. I am sure I will have an opportunity to go into more detail on precisely what that work is, but he should rest assured that it is happening. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary committed to action all the remaining recommendations, or at least to come back with considered responses to them within the six months mandated by the inquiry. I think I have answered most of the questions. I apologise if I have not, but I shall leave it there.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, I am sure that those of us who sit on this Bench, along with—

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Sorry, I thought it was me.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for that eloquent explanation of what I have just tried to explain, perhaps less eloquently, to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. The previous consultation on this, which reported in 2018, also illustrates a little of what the noble and Lord described. Some 51% of respondents felt that introducing a duty to act would have negative consequences, 68% felt that mandatory reporting would have an adverse impact and 85% felt that it would not ensure that appropriate action was taken. This included people like the Children’s Commissioner and the NSPCC, who know what they are talking about. Some of the reasons given in the report—these go very much to what the noble and learned Lord said—were that it could

“dissuade victims from disclosing incidents of abuse and reduce ‘safe spaces’ for children.”

It could also have

“an adverse impact on the child protection system … e.g., by impacting the recruitment and retention of staff”.

Also,

“Increased reporting may divert attention from the most serious … cases”.


So many other reasons were given, illustrating the complexity of this subject and the care with which it needs to be looked at. So I agree entirely with the noble and learned Lord.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, those of us who sit on this Bench, along with all on other Benches in your Lordships’ House, are deeply saddened and ashamed by the harm and suffering experienced by victims and survivors of abuse. I salute the courage of survivors in coming forward to share their stories. We are determined to learn from the mistakes of the past and make the Church as safe a place as possible. That is why we welcome this final report and are already embracing its various recommendations with, for example, the Church of England’s redress board, which has a victims and survivors working group. In this respect, what exactly is the Government’s intention? Is it their preference to support institutions, including the Church, in establishing individual redress schemes? Or is it their intention to create a new overarching external regulatory body in this respect?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate obviously makes some good points. I will outline what the Government are doing to ensure that all sectors and leaders of society are working together to tackle child sexual abuse. In his opening speech in the other place, the Home Secretary comprehensively outlined the cross-party and multiagency dimension to all of this. We are transforming the way that local safeguarding agencies work together to ensure a more effective response in safeguarding children.

The Children and Social Work Act 2017 introduced significant reforms, requiring local authorities, clinical commissioning groups and chief officers of police to form multiagency safeguarding partnerships. All of the new partnerships were in place by September 2019, but we know that there are still improvements to be made to the quality and consistency of the local partnerships. We are working with local partners to understand and address those challenges in ensuring effective independent scrutiny, engaging with schools and other relevant agencies and distributing funding.

I reiterate that the Government are firmly committed to supporting all institutions that play a role in safeguarding children to develop robust safeguarding strategies that are carefully monitored, ensuring the safety and protection of children, regardless of where they live and spend their time.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

My Lords, I worked with the right honourable Member for Maidenhead in setting up this inquiry. At the time, plenty of people said it should not have been launched: they said it was all in the past and that there was no point in raking it all up again. Then they said that the terms of reference were too broad and that it would never end. I am pleased to say that they were wrong on all counts.

I congratulate Professor Alexis Jay on her brilliant stewardship of this inquiry and on her hard-hitting report. As she did in Rotherham, she has revealed truths that mean we can never look at society in the same way again. There is too much to say here, but I will cite a couple of important statistics in the report that have not been mentioned. In any year group of 200 children, it is estimated that 10 boys and more than 30 girls will experience sexual abuse before the age of 16. The number of sexual abuse offences recorded by the police where the victim was a child under the age of four has risen by 45% in recent years. So, as noble Lords have said, this is not in the past; it is very much in the present, and it will continue to wreck lives if we do not do something to stop it.

Having worked on the inquiry’s Truth Project, I have listened to the accounts of victims and survivors. Although everyone’s experience is different, the damage is always the same: families torn apart, lives forced in a different direction and feelings of shame, anger and hurt. We should thank all those who came forward to ensure that what happened to them does not happen to future generations. Thanks to Professor Jay, it does not have to; she has given us the answers.

As I said, it is a brilliant report, but it can only ever be as good as the action that flows from it. So I thank my noble friend the Minister for the Statement, which reflects the deeper understanding that we now have of this issue. But could he assure the House once more that the Government will look quickly and seriously at its recommendations and ensure that all the relevant departments across government play their part in implementing them? As we saw from the interim report, if they do not work together, we cannot drive through the change that is very much needed.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her remarks and commend her for her efforts when she was working with the right honourable Member for Maidenhead. I am grateful for the opportunity to commend the former Prime Minister for her extraordinary work on this.

Those statistics are genuinely appalling, particularly when they are put in those terms. I have read them as percentages, which perhaps seem rather dry, but to give numbers is harrowing. The Government have made it clear that they are determined to work across agencies and across departments; that work will be ongoing, and all relevant departments will be involved in it.

Something the Home Secretary said bears repeating: when asked about a Minister for children, he said:

“We all … have to be Ministers for children”.


I think he is right.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, it is disappointing that recommendation 13, on mandatory reporting, is not a pure system; it is a bit of a hotchpotch of mandatory reporting systems. Will the Government undertake to compare recommendation 13 to successful models of mandatory reporting elsewhere in the world, including Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Ireland and the USA? In particular, will they compare the views of public bodies before it was introduced and after? In each of those countries, there has been a significant gain in confidence in the regulated bodies that have to report.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for those suggestions. I will happily take them back to the department and Home Secretary, and strongly recommend that he investigates them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Statement made in the other place says, in summary:

“Victims need to know … that they will be heard and protected.”


I will pick up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who focused on the issues of the justice system. Abusers will of course seek out the most vulnerable: those who are the most excluded from society, including young people who may not be in education, employment or training; asylum-seeking children, as many noble Lords have identified; and those from particularly economically and socially disadvantaged communities. For them to be genuinely heard and to be able to talk to a sympathetic ear, resources will be needed in places such as schools and with their GPs and social workers—indeed, if one can imagine it, with immigration officers and border staff. Will the Minister acknowledge that there needs to be adequate resources in all those institutions where vulnerable children will encounter potentially responsible adults? The resources need to be there to enable those institutions to react appropriately.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Of course, I acknowledge that resources need to be adequate.

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

My Lords, do I have the permission of the House to speak, because I was not here for the earlier Statement?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

Thank you.

I did not applaud the remit of the inquiry; it was much too broad. We had terrible problems with the chair, with whom we were, at last, third time lucky. The inquiry should not have been set up by the Home Office. In my days, it would have been set up by the health department, and now it should be by the education department—if it were, it would have been more focused, more relevant and more specific. It was far too broad.

I do not agree with all the recommendations, but I do agree with mandatory reporting. I will explain why very quickly. I used to be a chair of the juvenile court. I was a psychiatric social worker, but my first job was working with the Inner London Education Authority with a special boarding school, where I realised that the headmaster was abusing the children, if not also the parents. This was the most appalling horror to me, a virtuous person of 24. I reported it to my boss, who said, “If you complain about these sorts of things, they will not allow social workers at residential schools. You must not be a politician, Virginia; you’re a social worker”.

I then went and spoke to a very senior member of the Inner London Education Authority, a Labour member who was a friend of my family—I broke my professional line—and told her about this simply appalling man who was abusing children and the institution. She basically did nothing. Of course, what they did is what is reported in the report: they wrote him a good reference and he went off to Tunbridge Wells. I immediately wrote about this to my friend Patrick Mayhew—then the MP—to warn him, “If you ever hear anything about him at all, you must jump immediately”. Mr Bertram went off to Canada.

I say this because I think that few noble Lords in this Chamber will understand how horrific it is to think that you are working with a virtuous institution and gradually realise that the person leading it—and responsible for vulnerable children—is a perpetrator of horrendous crimes. Beyond all this, mandatory reporting would have helped me; I would have been able to say to my boss and to the local authority politician, “We have to have mandatory reporting”. So I commend Alexis Jay. She has ended up doing a very good job, but it has been quite a long journey getting there. Thank you for letting me speak.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am pleased that we did. I thank my noble friend for her unusual perspective on this subject. I have absolutely no doubt that her personal experiences were replicated all too often in the past. Regarding mandatory reporting, I certainly appreciate her perspective and will take that back. As I have tried to explain, it is a complex subject. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, explained, it requires careful thought, but my noble friend’s remarks are noted.

[Baroness Newlove (Con)]

My Lords, I add my warmth to the report that Professor Jay has produced. It has taken a long time and cost a lot of money. I am speaking for the victims; in my role as Victims’ Commissioner, I gave evidence three times. There are excellent recommendations. While I know that there are over 100 recommendations, and that the Government must respond within six months, six months is a long time for victims and survivors to wait for something to change for them.

I have challenged the Government in my role as Victims’ Commissioner about the criminal injuries compensation scheme, which has had a very tight budget. I am conscious that the compensation process for these victims and survivors is going to be very lengthy, very bureaucratic and will put them off claiming the compensation they duly deserve. For example, I had to fight in my role to get £20 for a victim who had to print off papers; there was a question mark about whether they would pay £20 for ink. So my concern is that, while it might seem very simple that the Government will do this and that, the monetary value given to organisations is not enough to support the services that these victims and survivors need. I would like a fast target on criminal injuries compensation, because these people have waited long enough to have their voices listened to and to be given the better, healthier lifestyle they truly deserve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for those very sensible remarks. The Home Secretary said earlier that six months is obviously the absolute limit to come back with answers on these matters, but if we can come back quicker, we will. I am quite sure that he meant that when he said it. Criminal compensation—or victims’ compensation, I should say—will of course be considered along with the other recommendations. I will certainly take my noble friend’s perspective back to the Home Office.

Violent Crime, Gang Activity and Burglaries

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for securing this debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in it. Tackling crime is a key priority for any Government. As set out in our Beating Crime Plan, we are particularly determined to see reductions in homicide, serious violence and neighbourhood crime. These offences strike at our sense of security in our homes, on our streets and in our country, which is why combating them forms a key part of our Beating Crime Plan.

As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, noted, at the heart of efforts to reduce crime will always be the police. I pay tribute to the work of the many dedicated police officers who do the difficult and sometimes dangerous job of keeping our communities safe, day in and day out. I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Snape, about police morale but, as an ex-policeman myself, joined on the Front Bench today by my noble friend Lord Davies of Gower, another ex-policeman, we can say categorically that morale is affected by many factors, internal and external.

I detected a degree of gang activity on the Opposition Benches when it came to members of the Government. I will not engage with all of it. I am afraid I will not apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I appreciate that the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, was passionately delivered, and I will make sure that the Ministry of Justice is alerted to his contribution in Hansard. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, that I will visit a petrol station after I have given this speech.

We need to make sure the police service is properly supported and resourced. That is why the Government set a target to recruit an additional 20,000 police officers across England and Wales through the police uplift programme by March 2023. These are new posts. We are on track to succeed: as at 30 June 2022, 13,790 additional officers had been recruited. To the right reverend Prelate’s point, we are actually better than half way.

It is worth remembering that, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, pointed out, the nature of crime has changed and moved, as have our times. If this descended into a debate solely about numbers, we would not be taking into account technology, tactics and all the rest of the factors that go into effective policing.

I turn to some of the specific crime types that are referenced in the title of this debate and that noble Lords have discussed in their contributions today. The Government are determined to reduce serious violence and bear down on violent criminal street gangs. We are pursuing a robust twin-track approach that combines tough enforcement with measures to prevent young people becoming involved in the first place. I will talk to this strategy more in a moment, but first I shall outline the data. I accept the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about data; it can of course be used in many ways. He asked me a number of detailed questions about data. I will write to him on all those, because I simply do not have time to address them all. I hope that is acceptable.

I start with serious youth violence. I remember that behind these numbers and percentages, which are of course very dry, there are real people; I am not forgetting that. Serious youth violence, as measured by hospital admissions among under-25s for assault by a sharp object, is falling. In the year ending June 2022 it had fallen by 11% across England compared with the year ending June 2021. We know that those figures, as with all crime, have been affected by the pandemic, and we are not complacent in our efforts to continue to do all we can to reduce violence.

I noted the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, about the surgeon in Peckham, and I commend his efforts. I am afraid she rather lost me at the PM’s pension; I will not go into that. I also noted and was moved by the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Austin, about Dea-John Reid. Obviously, my thoughts and prayers are with his family. That is an appalling set of circumstances and I will investigate a little more.

To go back to the serious violence and gang situation, the Government have made £130 million available this financial year, 2022-23, building on similar levels of investment in previous years, to tackle serious violence including murder and knife crime. This includes £64 million for our network of 20 violence reduction units, which are delivering a range of early-intervention and prevention programmes to divert people away from a life of crime, and £30 million for Grip, a police programme that—to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker—uses a highly data-driven process to identify violence hotspots, often to individual street level, and target operational activity in those areas.

I shall give the noble Lord one specific example of how this works. In a hotspot policing pilot in Southend-on-Sea in Essex, which has recently adopted Grip, a 30% reduction in serious violence on days when patrols took place compared with days when they did not was noted. As he rightly points out, the activity was not displaced. VRUs and targeted police enforcement programmes have prevented an estimated 49,000 violent offences in their first two years of activity.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, specifically asked me about the West Midlands. It has had £16 million devoted to this programme since 2019, and £5.9 million this year. Its VRU is projected to support more than 21,000 young people in the region next year. The West Midlands is also very active in Grip.

We are determined to do more and to strengthen our response, including in the prevention space, which is why we have invested £200 million through our 10-year youth endowment fund to test and evaluate what works in reducing violence. Next year we will commence the serious violence duty, which will require specified agencies across England and Wales to work together collaboratively, share data and information, and put in place a strategy to prevent and reduce serious violence within their local area.

We will also pilot serious violence reduction orders, which will provide the police with the power to stop and search adults already convicted of knife or offensive weapons offences. Serious violence, as has been noted across the House, destroys lives, shatters families and plagues our communities. The Government remain wholly committed to confronting these crimes wherever and whenever they occur.

The noble Lords, Lord Snape and Lord Coaker, both referred to the homicide figures. The figures in England have remained relatively stable in recent years. That is not an endorsement, I have to say; I still think they are shockingly high. There were 710 homicides in the year to March 2022, while in the year to March 2020 there were 714. Obviously there was a decrease in homicide in the lockdown year.

I turn to county lines gangs, which were noted, movingly, by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe—I share her opinion on and outrage about child exploitation—and to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, also referred. They are driving crime across the country, not just by supplying illicit drugs but by perpetrating violence and exploiting the most vulnerable and, in some cases, the very young. Cracking down on this pernicious, poisonous threat is an obvious priority. The Government have a 10-year drugs strategy to save lives and cut crime. We have committed to investing up to £145 million to bolster our flagship county lines programme. The programme has provided targeted investment in those areas with the greatest county lines threat, with dedicated task forces in four key areas—London, Merseyside, the West Midlands and Greater Manchester—but county lines affect all forces, which is why we also established the National County Lines Coordination Centre to co-ordinate a national law enforcement response.

We are bringing the full force of our law enforcement capability to bear in tackling this issue, but we recognise that a wider system response is needed to support those vulnerable individuals being exploited by these gangs. That is why, through the programme, we are investing up to £5 million over the next three years to provide specialist support to victims of county lines exploitation, and their families. From the start of the programme in 2019 until April this year, the police have closed more than 2,400 lines. That includes 8,000 arrests and more than 9,500 individuals engaged through safeguarding interventions. Since April 2022, the programme has delivered a further 500 line closures, bringing the total line closures since the programme was launched in November 2019 to 2,900. It is a move in the right direction, but these gangs are resilient. We are not, and will not be, complacent, so we will continue to target county lines relentlessly, persistently closing them and putting those responsible behind bars.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans made a very good point when he reiterated how important civil society is. Much of that is down to local authorities and activities in local areas, but the Supporting Families programme has helped thousands of families across England—162,000 this year alone—through a whole-family approach.

Before I get on to the thorny subject of burglary, the noble Lord, Lord Snape, suggested that the Government are blaming the Mayor of London for the state of play in London. Rather than repeating what I said yesterday in answering the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Lexden about the report by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, I refer him to Hansard where I endeavoured—I am afraid it is quite boring—to describe the split of accountability and responsibility as it exists in London. We can debate whether it is the right split, but it exists.

As many noble Lords have pointed out, burglary is a particularly harmful crime. The feeling that your own home, which should be a place of safety, has been invaded and your possessions rifled through is distressing and disconcerting. The impact on victims and wider communities can be profound. It is therefore right that proper priority is given to tackling burglary. Of course, primary responsibility for this, as it does for any crime, rests with police forces which are accountable to locally elected police and crime commissioners. It is therefore worrying that in a report published only two months ago, the independent His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services noted that when it comes to tackling burglary and robbery

“too often there is a failure to get the basics of investigation and prevention right.”

I know this is something that the leadership of the police service is very concerned about, and we will continue to work with the police to ensure that they do get the basics right. This is a top priority for the Home Secretary.

Providing reassurance to victims and making sure that evidential leads are followed up is a key part of this. We were therefore very pleased when, just two weeks ago, the head of the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the chief executive of the College of Policing confirmed that chief constables and commissioners in England and Wales had collectively agreed that we should have police attendance at all home burglaries. I want to be clear that the Government are playing their part. As well as the police uplift programme, we have invested £120 million over the past three years in our flagship Safer Streets programme, which is supporting a range of crime prevention measures, including practical measures such as improved home security, street lighting and CCTV. According to the most recent statistics covering the year to March 2022—I appreciate what we have been discussing about statistics—burglary, as recorded by the Office for National Statistics’ Crime Survey for England and Wales, has fallen by 23% compared with the year ending December 2019. Of course, that number was recorded during the pandemic and showed a dramatic 27% decline, but I should note that as lockdown restrictions have eased police have recorded residential burglaries starting to increase a little. The figure for December 2021 was 11% higher than the figure for March 2021, but volumes remain substantially lower than pre pandemic.

The focus on preventing crime, including burglaries, sits across government. One core strand of this is our ambitious whole-of-government drugs strategy, which will drive down the burglary committed by those with a dependence on opiates and crack cocaine, who are responsible for almost half of all acquisitive crime, but I take note of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, about alcohol. Evidence shows that drug treatment can have an immediate and sustained impact in reducing offending, which is why the Government have committed to expanding and improving treatment and wider support to tackle drug-related offending, which blights communities across the country.

I have had a go at answering all the questions. This has been a very worthwhile debate, and I reiterate my thanks to all who have participated. There is much that all noble Lords who have spoken have agreed on. Crime has a profound effect on victims and the communities where they live, and it is vital that we do everything we can to tackle it. As I have emphasised, this Government are committed to bringing down crime, and I have set out some of the many measures that we, working with colleagues in the police and across the criminal justice system, are taking to achieve that result. Our message is clear: we will not stand by while decent, law-abiding people suffer at the hands of criminals. We will support and empower the police to fight crime in all its guises, and we will use every available tool and resource to keep the public safe.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, could he address the point I raised about the legal definition of child criminal exploitation?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I will have to disappoint the noble Baroness regarding the legal definition, but what I can say is that the data picture for group-based child sexual exploitation is currently poor. However, the Government are improving data quality in policing to support this. We are funding the Tackling Organised Exploitation programme, as well as regional abuse and exploitation analysts in every policing region, to develop enhanced intelligence about all forms of this. I appreciate that that does not answer the noble Baroness’s question, and if I may, I will write to her with a more enhanced answer.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, in view of the somewhat unusual circumstances going on in Downing Street, may I draw this debate to a conclusion by thanking all noble Lords who have taken part?

Rwanda Asylum Partnership

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I think I am right in saying that this is the Minister’s first appearance in this post, so I welcome him and warn him of trouble to come.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to delivering the partnership between the UK and Rwanda, so we can break the business model of people smugglers and prevent further loss of life in the channel. Working together, the UK and Rwanda will help to make the immigration system fairer and ensure that people are safe and enjoy new opportunities to flourish.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, that is of course the standard Answer. I had hoped for a little bit of a U-turn on this issue, but it seems there will not be one. The Government say that this is fully in accordance with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, but the UNHCR disputes this. There is no basis in international law for our doing this, and we are made to look foolish and in breach of our normal traditions of human rights and a humanitarian approach to refugees. Is it not time for the Government to think again? This is not going to happen in any case, because the lawyers are going to stop it.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I remind noble Lords that Rwanda is a state party to the 1951 UN refugee convention and the seven core UN human rights conventions. It is also worth pointing out that, in September 2019, the African Union, the Government of Rwanda and the UNHCR signed a memorandum of understanding to set up an emergency transit mechanism to evacuate refugees and asylum seekers out of Libya. The EU has provided support and donated €12.5 million to the ETM through its emergency trust fund. The UNHCR also stated, in a 2020 press notice, that

“Rwanda has been welcoming refugees for over two decades … The country offers a safe and protective environment to all asylum seekers and refugees.”


There seems to be a degree of inconsistency in the UNHCR’s opinion.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB)]

My Lords, I have just returned from a parliamentary visit to Rwanda. Could the Minister clarify which authority in Rwanda would be responsible for determining refugee asylum status? What guarantees are there that the 1951 convention criteria will be faithfully followed? I say this simply because, during this visit, President Kagame said that he was looking for new skills and talents among the refugees or asylum seekers who might be arriving in Rwanda.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As the noble Baroness is aware, the foundation for this is a memorandum of understanding that, it is strongly believed, covers the various points that she made. I cannot answer precisely who is responsible at the Rwandan end, but there are teams of Home Office personnel in place who will also monitor progress.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)]

My Lords, when will—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, most of the Rwanda Cabinet were refugees and understand the difficulties that people face, particularly coming from war-torn countries. Rwanda has moved forward massively from the days when it suffered war and genocide. Does my noble friend agree that we need to kickstart this process for illegal immigrants as soon as possible as we cannot sustain the levels as they stand and be seen to support people traffickers, who continue to make money on the backs of human misery?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question and I agree with her. The point of this policy is to break the vile criminal enterprise that operates in the channel. I think most noble Lords would approve of that aim. As to whether Rwanda is safe, which is the essence of my noble friend’s question, I say that it is a fundamentally safe and secure country with respect for the rule of law. She is right to point out that the majority of the Cabinet were refugees, and it is also worth pointing out that Rwanda has one of only two, I think, Parliaments in the world that has a majority of women sitting in it.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, the UK’s population, about 67 million, is five times that of Rwanda at about 13 million. Yet Rwanda, which is a country far poorer than us, as has already been pointed out, hosts one refugee for every 90 people whereas the figure here is one refugee for every 500 people. I do not think I can put my hand on my heart and say that the UK is doing its bit in a global crisis. I wonder whether the Minister would like to say what we are going to do to play our part in taking refugees here.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The most reverend Primate refers to refugees, so I will too. It is fairly self-evident what we have been doing for refugees, including BNO passport holders from Hong Kong—over 130,000 such visas have now been issued—Ukrainian refugees and Afghan refugees. I remind noble Lords that at the moment the taxpayer is spending about £2 billion a year on this problem. This is about asylum seekers arriving from safe countries, and about trying to put the criminal gangs out of business.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Government Chief Whip. I visited the reception centre in Kigali in June, and I asked about the legal basis of that centre, which is on a private contract on an annual basis that will run out in April. I saw no facilities for people who will be vulnerable or at suicide risk, and I have asked repeatedly in this House about the legal underpinning of the MoU. This House’s International Agreements Committee has today reported to say that it is unacceptable for measures such as this to be under an MoU rather than being under a treaty. Will the Government think again and allow Parliament to vote on, scrutinise and ratify this agreement if they believe that it is sound?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his two questions. First, he mentioned the risk of suicide. It is worth pointing out that the health and welfare of those in immigration detention is of the utmost importance. We have a dedicated welfare team on site at each immigration removal centre which is responsible for identifying vulnerable individuals and providing assistance to support an individual’s needs. I remind noble Lords that decisions will be taken on a case-by-case basis and nobody will be relocated if it is unsafe or inappropriate for them. With regard to the terms governing this, which was his second question, he will not be surprised to hear me answer that this is slightly above my pay grade, but I will happily take it back to the department.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, in a Written Answer on 13 October, a Home Office Minister revealed that, as well as the £120 million down payment on this policy, there was

“a £20m upfront payment to the Government of Rwanda to support initial set up costs.”

Is the Minister able to give clarity to the House on the full cost per person of this scheme and to say whether there will be further up-front payments?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I am not able to comment on the cost per person; as of yet no one has actually gone, as noble Lords know, so it would be premature to do so. As the noble Lord points out, the UK has invested an initial £120 million into the economic development and growth of Rwanda, and £20 million has been committed to the centre described in the last question. It is an up-front payment to the Government of Rwanda to support initial set-up costs. As and when those other figures are available, I will come back to him.

[Baroness Davidson of Lundin Links (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister knows that I am among a number on these Benches who are deeply uncomfortable with this policy and with some of the language used, even by those at the top of the Home Office, in discussing it. Surely the hundreds of millions of pounds already spent and earmarked for implementing this policy in future would be better spent here, speeding up the systems and processes at the Home Office so that decisions are made fairly and in good time and those in genuine need receive the security they deserve, while those with no grounds to remain are returned to their countries of origin and not a land they have no link to. I ask him to take this suggestion back to the department.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I understand the strength of feeling, so of course I will be more than happy to take my noble friend’s suggestion back to the department.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that this was above his pay grade. Not only, as the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, said, does the report that my committee produced yesterday say that it is “unacceptable” that this should be by an MoU rather than a treaty—which means it does not come through this or the other House—but the Home Office declined the invitation to give evidence to us on its reason for avoiding parliamentary scrutiny by using an MoU. There is no excuse for that, and we deserve a reason why the Home Office has back-tracked and used not a treaty, as it should have, but an MoU.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I answered to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I will absolutely take that back to the Home Office and see what can be done.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, in a written submission to the High Court this year—not a previous year—said:

“There should be no transfers of asylum seekers from the UK to Rwanda under the UK-Rwanda Arrangement.”


It said there was “a serious risk” of human rights abuses and a serial disregard for international law in Rwanda. The UNHCR has clearly changed its mind. Why will the Government not change theirs?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I have already stated that we are of the firm opinion that Rwanda complies with international law. I go back to my earlier answer: under the scheme I described earlier, the emergency transit mechanism under the aegis of the UNHCR, Rwanda has welcomed and integrated more than 500 individuals who were evacuated from Libya. Personally, I am at a bit of a loss to understand why the UNHCR seems to take this line with us when it is doing it itself.

Metropolitan Police: Misconduct

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the interim report by Baroness Casey of Blackstock on misconduct in the Metropolitan Police, published on 17 October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, interim findings of the review done by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, set out worrying failures of the Metropolitan Police Service to operate effectively within the misconduct framework and to tackle instances of sexual misconduct and discrimination. I welcome the commissioner’s response, ensuring that action to deliver change must, first and foremost, come from within the Met. The Government have announced an internal review into the effectiveness of the police dismissals process to ensure high standards across policing.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, does not this report make the most painful reading? It is painful for the Government, who have done little to bear down on police misconduct; painful for fine and trustworthy police officers, who have discharged their duty without fault over many years; and painful above all for those who have served as Metropolitan Police Commissioners. They surely have let down their fine, trustworthy colleagues, by turning a blind eye to the spread of crime and misconduct in the Metropolitan Police. Surely, there can be no doubt that the shocking features of Met activity set out in this report go back years. Will we hear explanations and apologies from those who have served as Metropolitan Police Commissioners in recent years?

Finally, can I seek some information from the Government? How many Metropolitan Police officers are at present under suspension? How many are on long-term sick leave? How many have resigned from the force within the last year while under investigation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a number of questions and invites a number of responses. I shall confine myself to the data that he asked for at the end—and I am grateful to him for giving me advance notice of the data so that I could get the right answers for him.

The Home Office collects and publishes data annually on police officers on long-term absence, classed as those lasting at least 28 calendar days, by type of absence, including suspension and sick leave. This data shows that, as of 31 March 2022, the Metropolitan Police Service had 449 officers full-time equivalent on long-term sick leave and seven officers were suspended. The Home Office does not collect data on the number of officers who resign while under investigation, but I remind the noble Lord that, since December 2017, resignation does not preclude the force from pursuing misconduct proceedings against an officer. In 2021-22, the College of Policing’s barred list statistics show that 14 officers who had resigned and four who had retired would have been dismissed from the Metropolitan Police had they still been serving. These individuals are still placed on the barred list and still prevented from rejoining front-line policing.

I apologise for the long answer, but I felt that it was appropriate.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his fearless efforts on this front over many years. Surely, we are all grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, for an interim report that appears to contradict the former Met Commissioner’s “few rotten apples” theory about the Metropolitan Police. Might the Minister reflect that, in the light of this interim report, now is not the time to hand even more draconian powers to an unreformed police service. The Government might be wise to swap legislation for the reform of police discipline for the Public Order Bill currently heading our way.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that I am going to disappoint the noble Baroness and not agree with her, but I am going to say that I think that the Metropolitan Police Service’s response to the interim report is most welcome. The new commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, has the full support of the Home Secretary in delivering his plan for transforming the Met, focusing on the key areas of more trust, higher standards and less crime. I hope that all noble Lords will welcome his initial responses, which have been broadly welcomed across the spectrum.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, Sir Mark Rowley has set out a bold plan to turn things around but, without very swift changes to police misconduct regulations and strong support from the Home Secretary, he will not achieve his objectives. Will he get them? Another review is just not good enough.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Again, I am afraid that I do entirely agree. It is also worth pointing out that the noble Lord omitted to mention the split of responsibility between the Home Office, the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The Mayor of London is the occupant of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime—MOPAC—which is the equivalent of a PCC for London. It is responsible for holding the Commissioner of the Met to account for the exercise of their functions and the function of those under their direction and control. MOPAC is also responsible for ensuring that the Metropolitan Police is efficient and effective in setting policing and crime objectives. There are a number of players in this particular space at the moment; they all have a job to do and, as I say, I welcome—and I think everybody should welcome— Sir Mark Rowley’s initial response.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has just rightly said that action should be taken. I think we all agree that those who transgress the high standards in public office should be dealt with and that lessons should be learned. However, is it not also right for us to acknowledge that the vast majority of serving police officers, men and women, serve this country with the highest levels of probity and public service, for which we should be enormously grateful?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I could not agree more with my noble friend and I am grateful for the opportunity to pay tribute to the vast majority of our police men and women in the Met and indeed across the whole country. They do a very difficult and often thankless job in often very difficult conditions, and they do it to a very high standard. I thank my noble friend for the opportunity to say that, and I thank those officers. I am sure that they are equally upset by this report’s findings.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, it may well be that the problems identified in the Casey report go beyond the Metropolitan Police. On this side of the House, we believe that the Home Secretary needs to personally take action. Will she now require all police forces to produce data and analysis of their misconduct systems in the same level of detail as in the Casey report, so that we can know what is happening in every police force in England and Wales?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some sensible suggestions and I refer back to the review that I referenced in my Answer to the original Question. I will quote the Statement made by the Minister of State for Crime, Policing and Fire:

“The Government will work closely with key policing stakeholders to examine evidence of the effectiveness of the system to remove those who are not fit to serve the public. As well as examining the overall effectiveness of dismissal arrangements”,


he expects the review to consider

“the impact of the introduction of Legally Qualified Chairs to decide misconduct cases; whether decisions made by Misconduct Panels are consistent across all 43 forces in England and Wales; and whether forces are making effective use of their powers to dismiss officers on probation. This focused review will be launched shortly and will be conducted swiftly.”—[Official Report, Commons, 18/10/22; col. 22WS.]

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the House will recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, has done an excellent job in producing such a challenging and far-seeing report. But does the Minister agree that that is only the first stage? The really big test is whether the report will be implemented—and implemented thoroughly. I have not spoken to the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, before I say this, but would the Minister be willing to consider ensuring that she remains involved to ensure that her recommendations are carried through?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Obviously, I cannot commit to that, but I think the noble Lord makes some very sensible points. As I have said already in answering this Question, I am very encouraged by Sir Mark Rowley’s determined statement. Obviously, delivery is slightly different from making a statement, but he has certainly set out on the right road.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, may I put to my noble friend a model that Parliament has established for other professions, such as doctors and nurses? He will know that when a complaint is made to one of those authorities, it can be very rapidly transmitted to an independent interim appeals body, which can make an interim order of conditions or suspension pending a proper investigation of the complaint. Is that not a model that we should consider? Although I recognise that there would have to be an independent authority to which the initial complaint is made.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I shall certainly take that suggestion back. I am sure that all options will be considered.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register in respect of policing. We are grateful, of course, to the Minister for explaining the complicated arrangements for the governance of policing in London, but could we be clear? He said that the Minister said that the commissioner will have the support of the Home Office. Will that extend to looking at how legally qualified chairs of panels have overturned disciplinary decisions? And, when the going gets extremely tough, will the Home Office support the commissioner? It was the previous commissioner who brought in the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, to do this excellent report; will the Home Office now support the new commissioner in making sure that this is implemented—even when it becomes controversial, as it will?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asked me two questions. I refer back to my previous answer on police dismissals. The review will investigate the impact of the introduction of legally qualified chairs. I believe the policy is about seven years old now and it deserves to be looked at, for obvious reasons. As for Home Office support, I think I have been very clear: Sir Mark Rowley enjoys the trust and confidence of the Home Office and the Secretary of State.

Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 19 July be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 18 October

Motion agreed.

Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

These are significant concerns that we keep coming back to the House with. Policy is being made without evidence that it will work. There is administrative chaos which will prevent any system from working effectively, and the very real problems for many people seeking asylum in our country are being left unanswered. It is not good enough, and the Government need to get a grip.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for all the contributions that have been made during this debate, which, as has been observed, was very wide-ranging. There are obviously significant differences of opinion on the subject, so whatever I say I will upset half your Lordships. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for the spirit of his remarks; I completely understand where he is coming from, and they are noted.

I will start by talking through the changes to the Immigration Rules. I will try to deal with all the questions that have been asked of me but, in the time available, I suspect I will struggle. I expect a bout of letter-writing at the end, which I commit to do in full, having studied Hansard.

The changes to the Immigration Rules that have been the subject of this debate were made in line with the relevant provisions within the Nationality and Borders Act 2022, as has been observed, which came into force on 28 June. I remind noble Lords that we debated similar topics extensively throughout the passage of the Nationality and Borders Bill. The guidance was also published on 28 June, in line with the relevant provisions in the Act. I assure and remind the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that our policies do not contravene our international obligations, a subject that I will come back to. Everything that we do complies with the refugee convention. I will try to deal with the more specific questions at the end.

Your Lordships will excuse me if I do not get into a philosophical discussion about ID cards. However, as an aside, I note that we all carry around a smartphone which probably has far more detail than any ID card ever would, so perhaps it is time to reopen that debate.

I take on board the very sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, about the Law Commission. This is a complex subject and we are extremely grateful to the Law Commission for its detailed and constructive work. We have already established a simplification of the rules review committee to look at the drafting and structure of the rules, as part of the multiyear programme of change which is being led by the Home Office. I hope to have some good news for the noble Lord in due course.

Pretty much everybody raised the subject of an impact assessment. In essence, the question is whether there will be an impact assessment for group 2 refugees and, if so, when will it be published. As with all our policy changes under the New Plan for Immigration, differentiation will be subject to ongoing monitoring and evaluation, with the operation of our policies being kept under close review. The Home Office routinely publishes migration statistics, which form the basis of our analysis. My predecessor committed to publishing this in due course, and I am also happy to undertake that, but I cannot go further than that at this precise moment.

If your Lordships will allow me, I will take this opportunity to explain the purpose and function of the Nationality and Borders Act. Its core objectives are to increase the fairness and efficacy of our asylum system, to deter illegal entry to the UK and to remove those with no right to be here more easily and quickly. Differentiation is designed to discourage individuals from embarking on unnecessarily dangerous journeys to the UK and to arrive by the various safe and legal routes that are available. I will come back to “safe and legal”. It is self-evident that those in need of protection should claim in the first safe country that they reach; that is the fastest route to safety. It is not right that the control of national borders should be suspended to allow people who have already reached safety in countries with fully functioning asylum systems to travel further to another country as a matter of preference. This undermines the broader immigration system and, as has been noted across the House, encourages people to fund criminal gangs and risk their lives trying to get into the UK in unseaworthy vessels or packed dangerously into cars or lorries. We have all seen the tragic results and there are some very uncomfortable statistics about how that sometimes ends.

I will briefly touch on the subject raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. We will come back to golden visas on another Bill so, if she does not mind, I will pass on that for the moment.

As I have said, people are losing their lives by making extremely dangerous crossings over the channel. As a responsible Government, we have to do everything in our power to stop these criminal smugglers. I think that is a general point of agreement.

I will briefly clarify how differentiation functions. Section 12 of the Nationality and Borders Act introduced two groups of refugees. Individuals who came directly to the UK, claimed asylum without delay and, where appropriate, can show good cause for any illegal entry or presence will be recognised as group 1 refugees. If an individual does not meet all these requirements, they will be deemed a group 2 refugee. Both groups will have full access to the labour market and healthcare. The Act means that we may differentiate between refugees based on their group in a number of ways, including the length of permission to stay granted, the route to settlement, recourse to public funds and family reunion rights. That probably does not go into enough detail for the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and his more detailed question about that subject so, if he will permit me, I will write rather than waste all the time of the speech.

This is what the policy and legislative changes established, with the intention to influence the decision-making of migrants, stopping them turning to criminal smugglers and thus undercutting that business model.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. There is no specific provision within the refugee convention that defines a certain term or sets out a specific procedure. Where there is no supranational body akin to the European Court of Human Rights, for example, it is open to states to interpret the terms of the refugee convention. Limit is placed on that autonomy to interpret by way of the principles of treaty interpretation in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. The general rule of interpretation in Article 31(1) of that convention requires a treaty to

“be interpreted in good faith in accordance with the ordinary meaning to be given to the terms of the treaty in their context and in the light of its object and purpose.”

On that basis, we have considered relevant factors, such as the law in other jurisdictions, case law and the words of academics. We believe that all provisions reflect a good-faith, compatible interpretation of the refugee convention. I appreciate that opinions on that may differ, but the purpose is to discourage asylum seekers from travelling to the UK other than via safe and legal routes. It aims to encourage individuals to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach after fleeing persecution, avoiding dangerous journeys across Europe. The policy is compliant with our international obligations under the refugee convention and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked me about returns to various countries. On a case-by-case basis, we have returned asylum seekers to Denmark, Ireland, Italy, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. I do not believe there are overarching agreements, but it does happen on a case-by-case basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

That is exactly the point. I do not know whether that means that somebody coming from Iran would be eligible. That is the point the noble Lord, Lord Horam, made, which I was agreeing with. So it is either yes or no, and I just do not know from that answer.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My reading of it is that it does, but I accept that my reading may not be entirely accurate. I will also say that, obviously, women in Iran should seek safety in the nearest available safe place, and that is the point of what we are talking about to a large extent.

All this is to underline that we remain committed to helping the world’s most vulnerable and oppressed people. This country has a long-standing tradition of extending the hand of friendship to those fleeing conflict, tyranny and persecution, and that record will continue.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked me a number of very specific questions which I will do my very best to answer in full. He talked about legal aid for refugee family reunion and whether that may or may not be available under the exceptional case funding scheme. It is where failure to provide legal aid would mean there is a breach, or a risk of a breach, of the individual’s human rights and it is subject to means and merits tests. In 2019, we amended the scope of legal aid so that separated migrant children are able to receive civil legal aid for applications by their family members and extended family members. This includes entry clearance and leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK made under the Immigration Rules or outside the rules on the basis of exceptional circumstances or compassionate and compelling circumstances.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked why the safe route for people from El Salvador has closed. Since 11 May 2022, Salvadorean nationals have been required to obtain a visa prior to entering the UK as a visitor. The decision to impose a visa regime was taken solely for migration and border security reasons. Over the preceding five years there had been a sustained and significant increase in the number of UK asylum applications from Salvadorean nationals at the UK border: up 1,750% since 2017. While this change requires Salvadorean nationals to obtain a visa entry clearance in advance of travel, it does not close the safe and legal routes available to Salvadorean nationals to enter the UK.

The noble Lord also asked whether, under the two existing Ukraine schemes, there is any progress in getting professional and technical qualifications recognised in the country. The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, other government departments and the UK Centre for Professional Qualifications to clarify and promote the process for converting professional qualifications into comparable UK equivalents. That will help Ukrainians to keep up employment in their chosen professions or industries and make the most of their opportunities to use their skills and knowledge while they are living in the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about asylum wait times. As he noted, the asylum system has been under mounting pressure for several years. Increased and sustained intake, and a growing number of people awaiting a decision, have led to significant delays. We are currently concentrating on deciding older claims, high-harm cases, those with extreme vulnerability and those of children. I am afraid I am unable to offer specific timescales at this time, but I commit to notifying the noble Lord as and when I can. I will pursue that particular statistic.

Before I finish, I will talk about the practicalities and practice. They were noted by a number of people, including the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Horam. To some extent this informs the debate about Iran. Who are we talking about, coming across in small boats? That is essentially the nub of this. In 2022, 87.7% have been male. Between 2019 and 2021, 89.7% were male—it is pretty consistent. The top five countries of origin for small boat arrivals this year, bearing in mind that most of the migrants are men, are Albania, Afghanistan—where there is a safe and legal route—Iran, Iraq and Syria. I am not diminishing those people’s reasons for wanting to be in this country, but I question whether Albania is really the right source for asylum claims. It has been noted that some of them have chosen not to seek asylum, with the deterrent effect of the policy around Rwanda. I also point out that of those men—I did the numbers this morning—approximately three-quarters are between the ages of 18 and 39.

A couple of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, pointed out that there has been persistent criticism of France. I am not here to do that. I am here to commend France, because since July 2020 we have made more than 500 arrests, dismantled 21 organised crime groups and prevented more than 23,000 crossings. So I thank our French friends for their efforts in that regard. I hope they continue and perhaps improve. Who knows? There may be room for improvement.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me a bit about Rwanda in relation to women from Iran. With the exception of unaccompanied children, any individual who has arrived in the UK through dangerous, illegal and unnecessary methods since 1 January 2022 may be considered for relocation to Rwanda. But decisions will be taken on a case-by-case basis and nobody will be reallocated if it is unsafe or inappropriate. Everyone considered will be screened and have access to legal advice. I cannot be more unequivocal than that, but I take the noble Lord’s point and will certainly raise it in discussions. I hope that satisfies him.

This is a very complex subject. It is a global phenomenon, influenced by multiple and complex factors. I am sure noble Lords are aware of the horrifying statistics of displaced persons around the world. I think this country is trying to do its bit but, obviously, we cannot take all of them. That is just not possible, as my noble friend Lord Lilley noted.

I close my remarks by again thanking noble Lords for their contributions throughout this debate. I understand this remains an emotive issue, obviously. The Government are committed to upholding our domestic and international obligations through safe and legal routes while also securing our borders, upholding our immigration laws and preventing unnecessary and dangerous journeys to the UK. We do not concede that the legislative changes and policy intentions behind differentiation are insufficient or problematic, as proclaimed in the regret Motion. We therefore cannot agree with the stated position of the regret Motion advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I had slightly expected that this might have been a rather dry-as-dust debate on the precise terms of the regulation. To my delight, it has branched out and blossomed. Many very important issues were raised, so I am doubly grateful to all those who have taken part in it. I note that they have come from all sides of the House. I join in the congratulations made earlier today to the Minister on his new role, and thank him in particular for his precise answers to the several questions that I raised with him in preparation for this debate.

The debate has touched on Rwanda, so maybe I could briefly say why sending people there would be a very bad idea. It is a country with a high poverty level and very poor human rights record. For example, refugees who have protested have been fired on and a number killed. There are strong allegations that refugees who have left Uganda to go to other countries have been murdered by Rwandan agents. I note that Israel had an agreement with Rwanda but has had to abandon it. I very much hope that Denmark will not follow this dangerous and unreliable course, and that development aid will not be used as a bribe to persuade the Rwandans to take external people.

That is all I need to say on that. Having done so, and having thanked those who need to be thanked, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, in an increasingly interconnected world where crime knows no borders, international co-operation that promotes justice and helps to keep the British public safe has never been more important. The instrument before the Committee will enhance our international judicial co-operation framework, specifically in relation to mutual legal assistance.

Before I come on to the contents of this instrument, I will briefly outline the context. Mutual legal assistance is a method of co-operation between states for obtaining assistance in the investigation or prosecution of criminal offences. The UK is a party to the Council of Europe’s 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and its additional protocols, which form an essential part of our fight against transnational crime and our co-operation with other contracting parties in relation to criminal proceedings.

The second additional protocol to the 1959 convention widens the scope of available mutual legal assistance among contracting parties and includes specific provisions regarding requests for hearings by video or telephone conference, joint investigation teams and the temporary transfer of prisoners. The UK ratified this additional protocol in 2010.

Under our domestic framework, mutual legal assistance is governed by the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, henceforth referred to as the 2003 Act. The 2003 Act states that, for the UK to request and facilitate certain types of mutual legal assistance, the country in question must be designated as a participating country as defined by Section 51(2).

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the Labour Benches support the order. I have a couple of questions. Luxembourg was the latest country to ratify the second additional protocol in 2021. When did the other states in this order ratify it? Is there any reason why we have waited until now to designate them?

Brexit impacted some of the collaboration we had on criminal matters with Switzerland, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned, and the statutory instrument will rectify that. Were there any other consequences on international co-operation from Brexit? Have they also been rectified? Are there any other countries apart from Russia—I totally agree with what the Minister said—we wish to designate but are unable to at present? If so, which are they?

The order refers to Sections 47 and 48 regarding prisoner transfer if consent is given. What happens if consent is refused, if a prisoner does not agree? What then takes place? Is there a process or are there other ways by which a prisoner can be moved between countries? Are all the arrangements outlined in this protocol reciprocal? How many requests do we typically make under this Act each year? One of my favourite questions: this order relates to England, Wales and Northern Ireland; will the Minister explain how Scotland operates with respect to this protocol?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I should say I thank all noble Lords, but I can be specific: I thank the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Paddick, for contributing to this debate. As I set out at the start, this instrument will enhance mutual legal assistance with these six countries and strengthen the UK’s overall ability to combat transnational crime. Mutual legal assistance is a critical tool in tackling cross-border criminality and promoting a pathway to justice here in the UK and overseas. As we have all said, this form of international co-operation has never been more important. Not only does it help to ensure that borders are not barriers to justice, but it allows us better to defend our public safety interests.

To go on to the specific points that have been raised, I am grateful to both noble Lords for supporting the non-designation of Russia at this time. I will have to come back to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on his question about other countries that may have been non-designated in the past, because I do not know the answer. I will find out.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about Switzerland and the EU and why we are redesignating Switzerland. Its designations for certain sections of the 2003 Act were removed following the UK’s departure from the EU, as the co-operation agreement between the European Community and its member states on the one part, and the Swiss Confederation on the other part, to combat fraud and any other illegal activity to the detriment of their financial interests, also known as the Swiss agreement, no longer applied. However, Switzerland remains a signatory to the 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and its additional protocols, so it has been determined that it should be redesignated for the relevant provisions of the 2003 Act. Inasmuch as that relates to the EU, the question is correct: our departure from the EU meant that we had to redesignate Switzerland. Switzerland is obviously an important partner in the fight against cross-border crime and it is important legally and operationally for the UK to seek and provide effective assistance.

I hope I can reassure the noble Lord on whether there has been any capability gap between the UK and Switzerland in the period since the 2019 regulations and this order. We are unaware of any requests which have not been facilitated while these additional Swiss designations have not been in place.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

Is it right then that what the Explanatory Memorandum says about this order being nothing to do with the UK’s withdrawal from the EU is wrong?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am reluctant to comment on the Explanatory Memorandum, simply because I have not read it. It sounds like it is, from what the noble Lord has said. I will seek clarification on that.

Both noble Lords asked why these countries are being grouped together. To be honest, it is in the spirit of efficiency and maximising the use of parliamentary time. It was decided that one instrument should be used to make a number of designations, rather than designating Switzerland and the other countries listed through separate instruments.

The countries that have ratified the second additional protocol to the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959 since the previous designation in 2013 are those that we have listed. I will not run through them again, but the most recent country to ratify was Luxembourg, which did so in 2021.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked for the total number of outgoing MLA requests sent to all countries over the past few years. I can run through them in detail. In 2017, the number of outgoing requests was 346; in 2018, it was 350; in 2019, it was 320; in 2020, it was 235; and in 2021, it was 371, making a total of 1,622. I can go into much more detail on incoming requests if the noble Lord wishes me to, but I hope he does not. I will also more than happily come back to him on the reciprocal question that he asked because I do not have the information on that to hand.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I also asked about Scotland.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right and is just in time. Scotland will need to make its own order as this power is delegated. Officials from the Scottish Government and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service are in the process of preparing parallel legislation. I had forgotten that question—my apologies.

To conclude, mutual legal assistance is a key tool in the UK’s fight against international criminality. This form of judicial co-operation enables the UK to seek and provide various forms of assistance to ensure that regardless of where a crime is committed perpetrators can be bought to justice. The instrument we have considered today helps to achieve this outcome and in turn to protect the British public and the wider international community. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for England and Wales and Scotland) Order 2022

Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 18 July be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 11 October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Vere, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.