Al Carns
Main Page: Al Carns (Labour - Birmingham Selly Oak)Department Debates - View all Al Carns's debates with the Ministry of Defence
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Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The Government are working exceptionally hard to ensure we speed up our procurement of uncrewed systems. In 2024 alone we are buying up to 5,400 drones, moving up to 8,000 in 2026. Really important is the development of our drone uncrewed centre of excellence, which will be launched later this year to provide better co-ordination and co-operation across defence, industries and academia in the delivery of uncrewed systems.
Fred Thomas
Britain’s future security depends on developing, testing and, crucially, adopting uncrewed systems quickly and safely, but the regulation is immensely complex. It spans many Departments, including the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Transport and the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The regulators include the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Military Aviation Authority, Ofcom and the Environment Agency. The list goes on—it is endless—and for the military, the police, the agencies and our innovators, the barriers are stifling. My hon. Friend will know that I have worked with stakeholders to develop proposals for reform, which he has seen, and I know that the MOD, the Department for Transport and even the Treasury are considering them, but to make real progress, we need coherence in this area. Will he now help me to convene a meeting of all the key regulators across the Departments to drive this forward?
Al Carns
My hon. Friend’s passion and support for this subject are not lost on me. The reality is that the majority of casualties on the frontline in Ukraine are caused by uncrewed systems. We have a navy without any ships that has destroyed a navy, and we have an air force with a minimal amount of fighter jets delivering strikes deep within Russia. With the dedication of the UK uncrewed system centre, which will open later on this year, we are establishing a centralised body of expertise to cut across the regulation and align regulatory freedoms with defence, to ensure that we can reduce that friction and improve assurance. I would love to meet my hon. Friend and the collective organisations to move this forward at pace. Enough is enough when it comes to regulation; we need to get on with it and we are going to double down over the next 12 months.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
Turnchapel Wharf and the Cattewater in my constituency host many marine autonomous defence innovators, but the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s workboat code edition 3 is hampering the testing, development and utilisation of autonomous vessels. They cannot even get the licences to be out on the water. What conversations has the Minister had with his counterparts in the Department for Transport to stress the urgency of sorting out this issue, so that the promised defence investment for Plymouth actually gets out to sea?
Al Carns
It is not lost on me that the testing and trialling of systems, in both the maritime and the air space, is full of regulatory issues and hurdles. We have had a couple of meetings with the Department for Transport, and we have a firm grasp of the problem. We now need to move this forward and unlock legislation to ensure that it is easier and far faster for those companies not only to develop cutting-edge technology and get it into the open market but to procure it for defence.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The Government are putting NATO first and stepping up on European security. In the past month alone, I have met US, German and Estonian counterparts to discuss deepening our co-operation and protecting NATO’s eastern flank. But it does not stop there; this is about joint exercising and joint industrial co-operation. In just the past 12 to 18 months, we have done an amazing frigate deal with our Norwegian partners, we have done a deal for Typhoons with Turkey, and we are building our industrial and exercising co-operation across the whole of the NATO flank.
Sarah Hall
Yesterday I visited the Ukrainian family hub in Warrington for its Christmas celebrations. Many families who fled Putin’s war of aggression have made Warrington their home, but they are deeply worried about what the future holds, what peace might look like and whether they will ever be able to return safely to Ukraine. Can the Minister reassure them that the UK and our NATO allies remain steadfast in our support for Ukraine both in defending its sovereignty and in shaping a just and lasting peace?
Al Carns
The pain of losing one’s home is not lost on me, and being apart from friends and family over the Christmas period has a huge impact. Nearly 7 million Ukrainians have been displaced since 2022, all because of Putin’s barbaric and illegal invasion. I want to be absolutely clear: we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes, and we are committed to working towards a just and lasting peace. That is why we are spending a record £4.5 billion on military support for Ukraine this year, and why our total committed military, humanitarian and economic spend now amounts to £21.8 billion.
Ben Goldsborough
Norfolk has a proud and enduring history in the defence of our islands and our allies, from Nelson’s legacy to the RAF bases that welcome NATO personnel to this very day. What assessment has the Minister made of how Norfolk’s defence assets can further support our shared security with our NATO partners?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to acknowledge the vital military history and work of Norfolk. Whether defending the UK from zeppelin raids in world war one or serving as a frontline bomber command in world war two, RAF Marham has long been a cornerstone of our UK’s airpower. We are investing in RAF Marham, procuring multiple F-35 jets that will fly from the base. Those will strengthen NATO’s nuclear deterrence posture and add huge paths over to my hon. Friend’s constituency.
Callum Anderson
Deterrence depends not only on military strength but on our economic resilience, from energy security to protecting our critical infrastructure and vital industries. Will the Minister provide more information on what conversations he has been having with our partners and NATO allies in Europe, to align our economic security measures with our broader defence strategy on our continent?
Al Carns
The reality is that armies, navies and air forces respond to crisis; economies, industries and societies win wars. We are stepping up in these key areas, but we are not alone. As a great general once said, there is only one thing worse than working with allies, and that is working without them. We are doing this together. We are working within NATO to integrate economic security such as supply chain resilience for critical sectors and collective defence planning, and as part of the G7 we are strengthening investment, screening, export controls and the protection of critical national infrastructure.
Chris Vince
As the Minister will be aware—I mention it quite often—Harlow is home to high-tech defence innovation and skilled jobs. Will he confirm that one consequence of the historic NATO summit in June is that there will be further investment in defence and resilience that constituencies such as mine can benefit from?
Al Carns
This Government are not hollowing out defence or taking a dig at defence procurement. This Government are increasing morale, increasing recruitment and, importantly, making defence an engine for growth by investing in SMEs all over the country, with new cutting-edge technology and technological capability that will be battle-winning in the long term.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Having sat through the debate on Ukraine on 4 December, has the Minister taken on board the important message for our NATO colleagues that if there is a forced division of Ukraine, just as there was of occupied Germany at the end of the war, it will be essential that unoccupied western Ukraine is fully manned with deterrent allied troops? Nothing could be more destabilising than a vacuum in western Ukraine, with a heavily militarised occupied eastern Ukraine under the control of the killer in the Kremlin.
Al Carns
I thank the right hon. Member for his insight and support for all things defence. We must ensure that Ukraine is at the very centre of any negotiation, and this Government have been leading not only on the coalition of the willing but also across the Ukraine defence contact group. Just recently we raised €50 billion in support of Ukraine. If the Ukrainians negotiate a peace, the UK will fully support that peace through multiple different vectors.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
There is a mismatch between the rhetoric that we are hearing and the funding for defence in this Parliament. The NATO Secretary-General talks about preparing for war on the scale that our grandparents endured, while the US national security strategy states that it is a “core interest” of the United States to “re-establish strategic stability” with Russia. In that context, will the Government urge a lowering of the temperature of statements by the likes of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the First Sea Lord, or will they increase defence spending closer to 3.5% of GDP in this Parliament?
Al Carns
Let us be really clear, for 14 years—[Interruption.] For 14 years, we have not seen defence spending going up. As shadow Ministers sit on the polished Opposition Front Bench criticising the individual Ministers speaking on behalf of the Government, I am the one who, collectively with others, had to put up with poor recruitment targets, terrible morale, and poor equipment and capability. For the first time in a generation, this Government are increasing defence spending for a long time, so that everybody in uniform will be able to look forward for the next 10 years and see that defence spending is going up. Well done.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
Last week, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry told me:
“There are no other platforms within the Army’s armoured fleet which can fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role; Ajax has been specifically designed for this purpose.”
Our commitment to NATO includes two divisions. The first includes three manoeuvre brigades, with armoured and mechanised capabilities. With Ajax undeployable, we have no formation reconnaissance capability and therefore no deployable armoured brigade, thus we are not currently meeting our NATO obligation. Will the Minister clarify whether we still meet his NATO test without Ajax, whether we meet our NATO obligation more broadly, and, if he thinks we do, how?
Al Carns
As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has been overspent and the key user requirements have changed and oscillated from left to right for the past 10 years. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.
Susan Murray (Mid Dunbartonshire) (LD)
An individual recruited by the Russian Government recently carried out an arson attack on British soil. That followed the Yantar’s aggressive action against the RAF in the North sea. Does the Minister agree with me that to defend against the growing Russian threat, we need to co-ordinate with our European allies, not just on aiding Ukraine, but on domestic security measures, be they on land, at sea or in our digital spaces?
Al Carns
The hon. Member makes an exceptionally valid point. Just last Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services that are primarily about co-ordinating all of our intelligence capabilities to ensure that we can identify, deter and defeat threats should they be posed towards the UK, our critical national infrastructure or any of our sensitive sites. It is worth noting that engagement between the Military Intelligence Services, our defence intelligence and all our other agencies goes hand in glove with our like-minded European allies fighting for democracy and freedom all over the world.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
That is exactly why, on Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services, to map and track those threats, deter them and, if necessary, defeat them.
Jonathan Hinder (Pendle and Clitheroe) (Lab)
The Government’s deal to build 20 new Typhoons for NATO member Turkey is welcome news for jobs in Lancashire, including for my Pendle and Clitheroe constituents who work at BAE’s Samlesbury site. I am sure that the Minister will agree that, in this geopolitical environment, we need sovereign capability more than ever, so can he give us some more good news, back British workers and put in a domestic order for Typhoons?
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
The Army Training Regiment Winchester, which puts about 20% of new recruits through basic training, is due to be shut next July, but the replacement facility at Pirbright is not due to open until 2030 at the earliest, although apparently that might be delayed. We have corresponded on this briefly, but would the Minister be willing to meet me and perhaps facilitate a meeting with the commanding officers of Winchester and Pirbright, to ensure that they have the support they need to increase troop numbers and not lose the capacity to train 20% of them?
Al Carns
I would love to sit down and, in person, talk through this particular issue. It is worth noting that, for the first time in a long period, more people are joining than leaving, but it would be useful to talk through the specifics of the issue.
Amanda Hack (North West Leicestershire) (Lab)
I welcomed the Minister’s response in relation to the LGBT redress scheme, but my constituents have reported difficulties in obtaining evidence of mistreatment from the Ministry of Defence. Are there any further actions that the MOD can take to ensure that it is easy for our veterans to access such evidence?
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
One of the many challenges that Ukraine will face should a peace agreement be reached is the task of clearing land of mines and unexploded ordnance so that it can once again sustain Ukraine’s vital agricultural economy. How do the Government intend to invest in innovative de-mining technologies and work with Ukraine to ensure that its land is made safe and productive for the future?
Al Carns
The devastation caused by Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine is not lost on any of us. Millions of landmines—anti-tank mines—have been laid all across the frontline and will take decades to clear. We will work constructively with our Ukrainian and international allies to ensure that Ukraine is returned to normal as soon as peace is declared.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The maintenance of our nuclear deterrent, and the development of our wider defence capabilities in the United Kingdom, rests heavily on the town of Barrow, next to my own constituency, in my district of Westmorland and Furness. Does the Secretary of State recognise that investment into the town from the council is crucial to maintaining our peace and security, and will he have a word with his colleagues in the Cabinet? The local council is set to have a 13% cut to its budget, which will put at risk much of the investment in the town of Barrow that is meant to underpin the defence of our realm.