Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Third sitting)

Luke Evans Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 12th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Furniss.

Government amendments 26 to 29 seek to remove previous amendments to the clause tabled by Lord Kamall, Earl Howe and Baroness May of Maidenhead, which added police and other authorised persons to sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Mental Health Act 1983, giving the police additional powers to detain people under the Act where they currently have no powers to intervene. We do not support extending police powers in that way, and we understand that the police do not support an extension either. It would not be appropriate to involve police officers in clinical decision making about whether a person meets the criteria for detention for assessment or treatment under the Act, or to involve them unnecessarily in the temporary detention of patients who are already in hospital to enable a Mental Health Act assessment to take place. We also seek to remove clause 50 from the Bill; we look forward to discussing that at the appropriate time on a future day in Committee.

I will now move on to clause 5 in its entirety. The grounds for detention provide decision makers with criteria that must be applied when deciding whether it is appropriate to detain, or to continue to detain, a person under the relevant sections of part II of the Mental Health Act, covering civil patients. The clause will replace the existing criteria, which the independent review of the Mental Health Act found were too vague, and will take forward changes recommended by the review. It will strengthen and clarify the criteria to require a risk of “serious harm” to justify detention. Consideration must also be given to the nature, degree and likelihood of the harm. For a patient to be detained for treatment under section 3, there must be a “reasonable prospect” of therapeutic benefit.

The code of practice already directs clinicians to consider the “nature”, “likelihood” and “severity” of harm. We believe it is right to formalise those considerations by putting them in primary legislation. We have not defined serious harm in the Bill. We will work with stakeholders to provide guidance on that in the code of practice. We are not seeking to raise the bar on detention, which could put patients and the public at risk. However, we think that when the serious decision is taken to deprive someone of their liberty, and potentially to treat them against their wishes, there needs to be consistent consideration of the potential risk of harm to a person or to others to justify that.

The revised risk criteria will not apply to part 3 patients. There are already tailored risk criteria for patients in the criminal justice system. Those are considered by the court and the Secretary of State for Justice, and allow for all relevant factors, including public protection, to be considered on a case-by-case basis. For those reasons, I commend Government amendments 26 to 29 and clause 5 to the Committee.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be here on day two in Committee. I will first address clause 5 and then the Government amendments.

The clause marks significant reform to the legal foundations of mental health detention in this country. At its core, the clause seeks to update the grounds for detaining individuals under the Mental Health Act. It will amend several critical sections—sections 2, 3, 5, 20 and 145—to ensure that detention is used only when absolutely necessary and in line with the principle of least restriction, which was put forward in the Wessely review and is now in the Bill.

Let me outline what the changes will do in practical terms, as the Opposition see it. Under section 2 of the Mental Health Act, “Admission for assessment”, detention will now be justified only if “serious harm” may occur to the “health or safety” of patients or others. The decision must weigh the “nature, degree and likelihood” of that harm, a much more structured and risk-based framework than previously existed. Under section 3, “Admission for treatment”, we will see a clearer threshold. Detention will be permitted only if “serious harm” may occur without treatment, if the treatment is necessary, if the treatment cannot be provided unless the individual is detained and, crucially, if appropriate treatment is available.

Section 5(4), on emergency hospital detention, will be updated to align with the same “serious harm” test, recognising that even urgent situations demand clear legal justification. Section 20, which governs the renewal of detention process, will be brought in line with the same standards, such that they apply not just once but every time detention is extended. That is an important safeguard. A statutory definition of “authorised person”, those empowered to detain, will be introduced in section 145, ensuring that such persons are appropriately trained and regulated.

Those changes respond to real and long-standing concerns. The 2018 independent review of the Mental Health Act warned that our current criteria are too broad and that they allow for detention that is often unnecessary, sometimes prolonged and, in too many cases, distressing for patients and families. Clause 5 seeks to change that by grounding detentions in a clear, evidence-based assessment of risk and necessity.

The clause has significant advantages. It will introduce stronger safeguards against inappropriate detention and will shift the focus away from diagnosis alone and towards the actual risk of serious harm. It will offer greater clarity for professionals, giving them structured criteria for making decisions that are ethically and legally sound. It will enhance patients’ rights by aligning the law more closely with the principles of autonomy and proportionate care.

However, with every reform there are challenges, and we must not ignore them. The terms “serious harm” and “likelihood”, although essential, remain open to interpretation. We must ensure that the forthcoming code of practice offers clear, detailed guidance that minimises subjectivity and inconsistency in their application.

Furthermore, there is a question mark over public safety, which the Minister seemed to point to but which I want to explore a bit further. We have not tabled an amendment, but I am keen to understand how this works. Given that the definition is potentially ambiguous and in practice quite difficult to judge, has the Minister considered inserting the words “cumulative” or “escalating”? To be clear, this is a call not to water down those safeguards, but to shore them up with a safety net, so that this reform does not inadvertently trade off liberty against safety, especially in communities.

We need to ensure that we are not inadvertently introducing a real risk that someone, particularly someone on the margins of eligibility, may fall through the cracks. There are individuals whose behaviour is escalating and whose pattern of deterioration is known to services, but who do not yet meet the “serious harm” threshold at the time of assessment. I have seen this at first hand as a clinician—a picture that goes round and round. These are some of the most complex situations that one will ever have to deal with in one’s clinical career. The words “escalating” or “cumulative” may help to give further clarification to clinicians on the frontline.

For those on the margins, what consideration have the Government given to the notion of a duty for professionals to produce a risk management plan in any case in which detention is considered but not authorised, so that we do not simply assess and walk away, but assess and act in a community setting? That would not lower the threshold, but contextualise it. It would ensure that detention remains a measure of last resort, but not too late a resort.

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about some of the challenges around the interpretation of the Bill. Does he agree that there needs to be a clear plan for the training of professionals so that there is consistency across the board?

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend is spot on about training. It is one thing to enshrine these measures in primary legislation; it is another thing to have the training and interpretation that go with them. One of the reasons that we have not tabled an amendment on the matter, as yet, is that there could be some concerns about what “cumulative” or “escalating” behaviour looks like. Ask any clinician and they will say that they have seen patients who are on the borderline and are struggling. It can be unclear whether they are within or outside the definition; they could be wavering between the two, given the state of their mental health. That is a real concern, but the broader pattern of identifying the picture of what is happening could be helpful and important.

One way to address the issue would be to review the data and legislation. Would the Government consider carrying out a review two years after the implementation of the Bill, specifically to look at the working of the legislation through the lens of public safety? I hope that there will be no concerns, but that would provide a backstop and a legal safety net. We do not want to wait another 40 years if there are changes that need to be made.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s request to the Government for a review two years after implementation. Does he agree that it needs to be cross-governmental? The Home Office and other bodies such as the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and the NHS will need to be involved.

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. We heard on day one how these services interact, and that is completely correct. We need to look through the lens of public safety, because while we are quite rightly enshrining the autonomous nature of the patient as an individual, there is also the question of what we look at as a society. It includes the likes of local councils, mental health care and NHS care. Schooling could also be involved, as well as the judiciary and the Home Office. I think it is reasonable to ask the Government to look at that, in the light of recent high-profile cases, and say, “What are we doing? Does the legislation really do what we think it does?”

Clause 5 is a good step forward, but we must make sure that it is fit for purpose and that we have a review mechanism in place. I do not think that it necessarily needs to be in statute yet, but it will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response. Conducting a review on such a change, through the lens of patient safety, would be very useful.

There is also the matter of resources, which we keep coming back to. Change in detention criteria will rightly push us towards community-based alternatives—that is the whole point of what we are doing—but unless those alternatives are properly resourced with staffing, crisis services, housing and follow-up care, we will risk replacing one form of system failure with another. I appreciate that the Secretary of State is committed to reporting each year to the House, but will the Government publish a timetable and framework to support the implementation?

As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley, training is also critical. Professionals need the tools and time to learn the framework. They need support, implemented in real time, often under pressure and in complex, high- stakes circumstances.

Clause 5 is a welcome and thoughtful step in modernising mental health law. It will strengthens patients’ rights, sharpen clinical practice and bring us closer to a system that balances safety, liberty and humanity. However, we must be mindful about the risk of delayed intervention. In borderline cases in which the threshold is not clearly met but concerns remain high, we must ensure that there is still a route to timely, compassionate support. Otherwise, we may swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, from the overuse of detention to the underuse of care.

On Second Reading, I said:

“There is little greater moral burden than deciding for someone who cannot decide for themselves where care ends and control begins.”

Clause 5 typifies that burden: we are deciding who should be detained and why. I said:

“Make no mistake, this is what this House is grappling with”,

and indeed it is what our Committee is now looking at in detail. I also said:

“Involuntary care should never be the first instinct or answer, but a resort to prevent harm to both the individual and those around them.”

I said that compassionate care demands precision not only in its delivery, but in its design. I concluded:

“Without precision, we simply have sentiment.”

I promised then, as I promise now, that

“we will endeavour to ensure that the Government’s sentiment becomes a commitment.”—[Official Report, 19 May 2025; Vol. 767, c. 850-851.]

That neatly sets the scene for discussing Government amendments 26 to 29.

[Gregory Stafford]

Before my hon. Friend moves on to the amendments, I want to press him on the point about training, which my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley brought up. I support the change to the thresholds for detention but, given that it is potentially quite a significant change, what level of training will be required? Does my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth have any suggestion about how long it will take to train the relevant professionals so that there is consistency when the Bill becomes law? Does he feel that there should be a period of cooling off or training time before this part of the Bill is implemented, so that the training can catch up?

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend makes an important and poignant point. The Government have rightly stated that this change could take up to 10 years to implement, but we need to ensure that the most important safeguards are set out. Elsewhere, the Government have suggested that they will be in the code of practice. When we were discussing section 5 of the Mental Health Act and other issues, I said to the Minister that we need a constructive timetable, not only to know what the roll-out will look like but so that we can consult with the professions and ensure that they are able to deal with it.

Later, we will again discuss the interface between the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and the changes that bring in new tests. That will be really important. We will also discuss the change of statutory safeguards for electroconvulsive therapy and changes to the statutory safeguards around who the second clinician will be—there is quite a feast of movements through this legislation. Make no mistake: that is what the country wants, but the Government must clearly set out some rationale for the timetable.

Unfortunately, the Opposition’s proposal for a costed plan was defeated. We wanted to set out some kind of concrete timetable over 18 months to ensure that we do not slip back, and to give the Government the flexibility to make the necessary cultural and legal changes. I hope that that addresses some of my hon. Friend’s concerns, but he was right to put that point to the Minister.

I oppose Government amendments 26 to 29, which would remove the reference to detention

“by a constable or other authorised person”,

and to delete the proposed definition of “authorised person”. I support the argument advanced powerfully in the other place by Baroness May, whose experience as a former Home Secretary gives her deep insight into the interaction between policing and mental health. Of course, it was under her premiership that the entirety of this discussion was progressed. I thank her for everything she has done, although I am not quite so thankful for the workload that it has created for me in my evenings and weekends. Her central message was clear: we must stop treating mental health as a policing issue and start delivering the right care from the right person in the right place. I wholeheartedly agree, as I am sure the Committee does.

I understand what the Government are trying to achieve. On the face of it, the amendments are technical. They seek to ensure that detention under the Bill is solely based on necessity where there is a risk of serious harm or the need for urgent treatment, and that it is not tied to who is doing the detaining. On paper that sounds reasonable, but in practice those changes will remove vital clarity and will risk baking in a system that has already failed too many people in mental health crisis.

Let us look at the problem with removing “authorised person”. The Bill, as amended in the Lords, wisely recognises the need to broaden the group of people who can respond to mental health incidents so that they include not just police officers, but trained and equipped professionals, mental health nurses, paramedics and approved mental practitioners—people who are qualified to care, not just to detain. The definition of “authorised person” in clause 5(7) ensures that only those with training competence and safety considerations are empowered to act, so it provides a framework for accountability, not a free-for-all. By removing the framework, the Government amendment would create a legal vacuum: it tells us that someone must be detained, but not by whom. In doing so, it would leave NHS trusts, police forces and local authorities with a lack of legal guidance and with a risk-averse default to the police.

I think we agree that the police should not be the first responders. As Baroness May has reminded us, and as many officers have told me, the police are routinely called out to mental health incidents, not because they are best placed to respond but because there is no one else available or authorised. That is neither fair to the police nor fair to the individuals in crisis. A police uniform can escalate distress. A custody cell is not a place of recovery. An officer guarding a patient in accident and emergency for 29 hours, as the Metropolitan police have reported, helps no one—not the patient, not the police and not the public. The 2019 College of Policing snapshot found that 95% of mental health-related calls did not require a police response. That is staggering. It underlines why we must build up the capacity and legal authority of clinical professionals, not erase them from the statute.

I turn to the Government’s argument and why it falls short. The Government’s case is that removing the phrase

“by a constable or other authorised person”

will de-emphasise the police and make the law more flexible. Ironically, however, removing the clarity about who may act risks re-entrenching police dominance in these scenarios, simply because no one else will feel legally empowered to intervene. The Government argue that the definition is unnecessary or potentially restrictive, but I say the opposite: a well-drafted enabling definition gives confidence, clarity and a lawful mandate for healthcare-led responses. This is not about excluding the police altogether. There will always be situations in which an immediate threat to life or serious violence requires a police presence, but that should be the exception, not the structure around which our mental health law is designed.

[Gregory Stafford]

I think, from what my hon. Friend has said and what the Minister said at the outset, that Members on both sides of the Committee want the same thing, which as far as possible is to keep the police out of the making of these decisions, unless of course—I made this point on Second Reading and was intervened on by the hon. Member for Ashford—someone with a mental health issue has a firearm or something like that. The clear point of dispute is about whether the phrase that was placed in the Bill in the other place achieves that. Would my hon. Friend not agree that someone who has served as Home Secretary and Prime Minister and the noble Lords, who have vast experience in healthcare over many years, have probably got the definition right, which is why the Government should support the wording currently in clause 5?

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend is right: we agree that this is not a place for the police unless there is an absolute sign of criminal intent. The problem is that what happens is a member of the public sees something, reports it to the police and, naturally, it is the police, the fire service or the paramedics who come forward. If a person is unsure about someone behaving in an irrational manner, which by definition someone with a mental health issue could well be doing, the likelihood is that they will call the police and the police will be the first responders. We know that they tend to be the fastest to respond.

Slightly widening and refining the definition of who can respond would allow us to build a framework and culture that might encourage a first responder—we often say that the AA is the fourth emergency service; it may well be that mental health services would be the fifth emergency service and could respond. That is what we need for service provision. The idea behind this is to try to crowbar the police out of that position, unless absolutely necessary, as my hon. Friend rightly says. Allowing a new framework would be good for safety and good for the police, because they would be freed up to do other stuff. More importantly, it would get the care as quickly as possible to the people who need it the most.

[Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)]

I think there is some agreement between us, in the sense that obviously a police officer is not necessarily best placed to deal with those who are in mental distress. Having spoken to my local police team, I know that they would much rather there were frontline mental health professionals with the capability to take a person to a place of safety that is not a police station. We will come on to that in relation to later clauses, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that we already have some highly skilled professionals who are closely involved in these decisions in the form of approved mental health professionals? The vast majority of them—95%—are social workers. They play a very strong and excellent role, particularly to counterbalance the narrower clinical health perspective that there may sometimes be. Does he agree that, in a way, we already have in place some highly skilled individuals who are closely involved in making sure that these decisions are made in the best interests of the patient and the public, but also with clinical input?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Lady makes an incredibly important point about the range of people who can and do respond in such cases. The Opposition are not saying that is a problem; we want to support them by giving them the legal backing and framework to step up to be the first port of call. Unfortunately, by default it is always the police, because they are the only ones whose ability to deal with such situations is covered. The amendment aims to create a culture so that the people she mentions have the confidence to deal with them, and the accountability so that we can say, “The police should not be there first; it should be the first responders that we have.” We are starting to see cross-fertilisation; we are simply providing a legal framework that says that this should be the way forward by default and design, not an exception where people are working around the system.

I think we are on the same page here. It is about the nuances of how we do this, and whether it requires primary legislation. The House of Lords voted that it requires primary legislation, and the Opposition share that belief. That is why I am asking Government Members to reconsider when the amendment comes to a vote whether the balance is right because we would give people the security, legal certainty and ability to do exactly what they want to do, which is to care for patients, not worry about whether there will be some criminal side to the situation, and what the police interaction could be.

[Anna Dixon]

Obviously, the Lords amendment puts the role of the police into law. I think we agree that we do not want to have the police’s role enshrined in legislation. Over the implementation period for this important Bill, the idea is that community health services will be in place, including urgent response for those who find themselves in crisis. We need to remove this provision to make sure that the default position remains for community support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Lady points to the fact that the police are named, as they should be. Imagine if we took out the police completely—whowould then have the power to restrain, restrict and detain people under the Mental Health Act? That is the whole point of having the provision. What we are trying to do is refine and constrict the definition to make it clear for everyone in this country exactly who is entitled to do what. Emergency incidents could happen outside this House—would the police and mental health responder be there? That will come down to the clinical judgment of the 999 responder, the call handler and the clinician there, so I do not want to make it too restrictive. At the same time, we have to consider the evidence that is right under our nose, which is that 95% of the time the police are being called out inappropriately for mental health conditions. I guess that is the rub of what we are trying to sort out.

Our responsibility in this House is not only to write good law, but to enable better systems of care. That means ensuring that the law empowers the right professionals to act at the right time, and centring the needs of the individuals in crisis, not just managing risk from the top down. I therefore ask the Minister to reconsider the amendments. Instead of deleting the definition of “authorised person”, let us work to try to strengthen and clarify it to support a wider, safer and compassionate response to mental health crises. Let us seize this opportunity to reset the balance between policing and care, which the police themselves are asking for and our continents desperately need.

Much was made of the amendment in the other place, and I am grateful to the Lords Minister, Baroness Merron, for writing to Baroness May with an explanation of her concerns about the changes. The letter is dated 3 June and a copy was kindly laid before this House and the Committee. It is worth working our way through some of the issues raised. I fully recognise the Government’s concerns within it, and I agree with the need for extreme care when legislating on the deprivation of liberty, but I express reservations about the Government’s decision to overturn the amendment.

According to the letter, the Government’s central concern seems to be the unintended extension of police powers. The Government argue in the letter:

“Your amendments to clause 5 would give the police additional powers under the Mental Health Act. We do not support extending police powers in this way, and we understand that the police do not support this extension either.”

That is also what the Minister has said in Committee. Respectfully, that is a mischaracterisation of the amendments. The original Lords amendments do not extend the powers of the police; they reflect current practice where the police are often involved in detaining individuals in mental health crises.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Member agree that, since detentions under sections 2, 3 and 5(4) of the Act often happen in clinical settings, are completed by consultants, psychiatrists and social workers, and do not involve police, we do not actually need police presence on these occasions?

[Dr Evans]

I bow to the hon. Member’s expertise on this; the problem is that all the evidence shows that the police are the first there. I would like to see much more of him and his colleagues being able to respond and carry this out. We are giving them the legal certainty to do so. That is the argument for making sure that we have codified safeguards around who is and is not able to make such decisions. At the moment, it is purely the police who are called out to these situations, but this gives us another legal weapon with which we could fight this inappropriate use.

The aim is to codify the safeguards around who can exercise detention, ensure accountability and, importantly, enable health-led alternatives to police detention. Are the Government confident that the decision does not leave a legal grey area around which profession or agency has the statutory power to detain, especially during urgent community or hospital-based crises?

On the authorised person category in the section 135 and 136 powers, the Government say in their letter:

“Extending these powers to ‘authorised persons’…could potentially lead to staff, patient and public safety issues.

That is precisely why the Lords amendment included a tightly defined category of authorised person, subject to the Secretary of State’s regulation, mandatory training and safety provision. The intent is to ensure that when a professional, such as a trained mental health nurse, is better placed to respond than the police, they can do so lawfully and appropriately.

The Government say:

“Section 135 and 136 powers have been designed for police officers who have specific training, equipment and access to rapid support”.

Many frontline NHS and social care professionals, including AMHPs, crisis team members and community psychiatric nurses, already respond to acutely distressed patients in highly volatile environments. They lack the police powers, but not the clinical expertise. The amendments would bring clarity and lawful backing to the situations they already manage. Take, for example, a mental health nurse in a community who arrives at a person’s home to conduct an urgent assessment. The individual is clearly experiencing psychosis, and is at immediate risk of self-harm. Under the current law, the nurse must call the police, delaying the care and potentially escalating the situation. Under the amendment, they could lawfully detain, provided they are authorised and trained.

There are also confusions over the emergency response roles. The Government letter states:

“There is a very real risk of confusion over who should respond in an emergency if multiple agencies have the same powers, which could lead to delays.”

That concern is valid, but confusion is far more likely under the current law, where roles are unclear and NHS professionals must sometimes act unlawfully or wait for overstretched police. A regulated and accountable authorised person category, established in law and detailed in the code of practice, would clarify responsibilities, not blur them. Have the Government done any modelling of the delays and safety risk caused by not empowering suitably trained healthcare professionals to act in urgent situations?

The letter also highlights concerns from stakeholders that this is

“a radical proposal with a number of serious and potentially dangerous consequences and should not be pushed through without proper consideration”.

These proposals were not developed in isolation; they were advanced in the House of Lords, where the former Mental Health Act reviewers, legal experts and mental health professionals carefully considered their scope. They are also consistent with the direction of the 2018 independent review, which emphasised reducing coercion, racial disparity and the overuse of police powers.

The “right care, right person” initiative already expects health professionals to step in, but—unless I stand corrected—the initiative is not underpinned by any legal reform. Without amending the Act, health staff are still expected to take on crisis care without the powers of protection that they need to safely or lawfully do so. How can we expect health-led responses to mental health crises without giving health professionals the power in law to act?

Turning to guidance and the code of practice, the Government say that they will issue further guidance on police handover protocols and the legal frameworks. While guidance is welcome, it is not a substitute for statutory reform. Guidance cannot grant powers to detain or protect professionals from liability. We can have legal clarity with this framework.

If the Government want to push ahead with removing the amendments, will the Minister consider committing to a formal consultation with NHS England, the AMHP leads, frontline staff and patients on creating a legally robust authorised persons role? Would he consider piloting models of community-based urgent response teams that include AMHPs and trained nurses with delegated powers? Would he legislate for police exit strategies in A&E and community crisis responses that are enforceable, not just guidance based? Given our discussion about new clause 24, there is clearly scope for a sensible piece of work in the grey area to improve the interface for patients, clinicians and police. I think that is one we can all agree on.

[Gregory Stafford]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I think we agree on both sides of the Committee that, where appropriate, police should not be the first responders to this issue, although, obviously, there will be situations where they should be. If the Government push ahead with removing the amendments, is there any indication in the Bill, or indeed elsewhere from the Government, of what they will do to achieve what Members on both sides of the Committee seem to want, which is to avoid, as far as possible, having the police as the detainers and responders? If there is nothing else, I cannot see why the Government would want to remove the amendments made by the noble Lords in the other place.

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Under the last Government, the “right care, right person” initiative was launched with the Humberside police force to try to ensure appropriate care, but that is an example in isolation.

One solution would be to include guidance in the codes of practice, but it would not have the statutory footing to allow that legal certainty, which is the concern. Another would be to include something in the annual statement that we will receive from the Government. We should work collaboratively to try to find a decent piece of work to look for the evidence base and build a delivery plan to help the police extract themselves from situations, when appropriate, and care givers to insert themselves. It is admirable to share a problem that is difficult not just in England but in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I agree that the Government are right to proceed with caution, but caution is not the same as inaction, especially when lives are at stake and the law no longer reflects the reality of mental health care. The amendments are not about expanding police powers; they are about reducing the need for police involvement by giving others the lawful authority to act. Although maths may not be my strong point, I am not blind to the make-up of this Committee; I realise that the change will inevitably happen. I want to press the Minister on how he proposes to reduce the burden on the police to safeguard them from thousands of hours spent dealing with mental health crisis issues. In extreme cases, they are not appropriate responders.

This is the key issue to improve so many aspects of our society. We could improve the working life of the police, allowing them to do what they are paid to do, trained to do and passionate about: policing and protecting their communities. We could improve life for the public, because it would free up the police to tackle crime and keep them safe. Most importantly, we could provide the correct care to those patients at their biggest time of need. I hope the Minister will set out how the Government plan to achieve that.

[Sojan Joseph]

I rise to support the Government amendments, which will simply remove the words

“by a constable or other organised person”.

On Second Reading, I highlighted my concern about the amendments made to the Bill in the other place that sought to extend police powers of detention under sections 135 and 136 of the Mental Health Act to other organised persons, including medical practitioners, approved mental health professionals, mental health nurses or doctors and further healthcare and social care professionals.

I know that the noble Lords who introduced the amendments intended to remove the need for the police to be present at mental health incidents in the absence of any risk. However, they would grant the police greater powers; as an unintended consequence, they would also apply to detentions under sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Mental Health Act, where the police currently do not have power to intervene.

A section 2 application is completed by two doctors and a social worker, and the patient may already be in a clinical setting. Section 3 relates to somebody who is already receiving treatment or already has a known diagnosis in a clinical setting. Doctors’ powers extend to that section; the police currently do not have any role in completing a section 3 application. Section 5(4) provides nurses with a holding power for a patient who is already in the clinical setting, where the nurse believes that the patient is at immediate risk; again, the police have no role.

If we did not make the Government amendments, we would give more power to the police to get involved under those sections of the Mental Health Act and put more pressure on police services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

I will touch on the questions that have been asked on cumulative and escalating behaviour, on having a review of public safety and on the training plan. The details will be provided for in a mixture of the code of practice and the annual written ministerial statement.

The code of practice will be based on consulting both those who use the new criteria, such as clinicians, approved mental health professionals and members of the tribunal and, then, of course, on the other side, those with lived experience, service users, families and carers. It will be shaped and drafted on that basis. It will then go out to public consultation and will be laid before Parliament so that Parliament will have an opportunity to debate it. It will be a comprehensive and detailed development of the code of practice, and will address the issues around cumulative and escalating behaviour, the public safety issues and training.

On cumulative and escalating, it is worth noting that under the reforms in both the Bill and the current Act, clinicians have the power to detain on the basis of a risk of harm that may occur, not that already has or is happening at the time. That power already exists.

[Dr Evans]

Maybe it is my clunky naivety as someone stepping into the legal statutory framework, but I was hoping the Minister would guarantee he could take that away to look at with the team. I know from my clinical experience and from speaking to colleagues that it is one of the hardest things to measure and look for. Later, we will discuss areas where there are good case examples of people who have shown the problem of escalating behaviour that is missed by the authorities. This might be a clumsy and clunky way of trying to highlight that point, which is why we have not yet come up with amendments, but I would appreciate the commitment to look further at that when the Government takes the point away. It is really important to make sure we can give clinicians more certainty around what this looks like.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the hon. Member for the intervention, but I simply repeat that under both the Act and this Bill, which will reform that Act, clinicians have the power to detain on the basis of a risk of harm that may occur, not one that has already or is happening at the same time, so, in my opinion, this power already exists. What is the point of over-embroidering and adding more questions and considerations when those questions and considerations are already answered? Let us just try and streamline things, please, and make things simple rather than complicated.

We had a lengthy debate on the amendment. Let us just boil this point down to its essence: the majority of mental health incidents are managed without police involvement. Approved mental health professionals have powers under section 115, section 6 and section 137 to enter a person’s home and to assess and convey said person to a hospital. That is the first point: all the concerns that have been raised by the Opposition are very clearly addressed by the powers that already exist for AMHPs.

We support “right care, right person”. Policing is of course operationally independent, and those “right care, right person” arrangements are planned and developed through detailed multi-agency partnerships on the ground. We need to be pragmatic and recognise that “right care, right person” is the right way forward. The Government are committed to it, so let us let the practitioners, the experts and the police on the ground work in a practical and pragmatic way to address these incidents as they occur. In many cases, it is simply impossible to legislate for these incidents. By definition, every person experiencing trauma experiences it for different reasons, and it manifests itself in different ways, so top-down micromanagement of that would be deeply counterproductive and unhelpful.

Officials in the Department of Health and Social Care and in the Home Office have engaged with senior representatives of the police on these amendments in great detail. I can give the Committee an 100% assurance that the police do not support an extension of their powers to sections 2, 3 and 5. I am therefore baffled by the fact that Opposition Members appear to be claiming that they know better than the police whether their powers should be extended.

Let us stop trying to pretend that we have the police’s expertise. Let us please take a pragmatic approach to this. The police do not want an extension of these powers, and the Home Office is clear that that is the case. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding at the heart of the lengthy debate that we have just had. On that basis, I thank hon. Members for their interventions and I commend the amendments to the Committee.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Zöe Franklin]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. Our amendment would ensure that people who are subject to community treatment orders receive information about their right to advocacy. People under CTOs should not miss out on advocacy because they were not aware. CTOs can have a significant impact on how people are able to live their lives, and ensuring that those who are subject to them are effectively represented is crucial. I am delighted that advocacy is a crucial part of the Bill, but this seems something of an oversight.

Not being aware of mental health advocacy could lead to a damaging lack of autonomy and voice for an individual. This simple change would ensure that people receive the support to which they are entitled. People in this situation are in acute mental distress, so the idea that they must actively seek out information on advocacy seems an unfair burden that will make the welcome provisions around mental health advocates far less effective.

We also need to be aware that CTOs have consistently been shown to be a point of disparity in care for black and minority ethnic groups. Clearly pointing towards an advocate may help to alleviate that and ensure that the patient is adequately supported on leaving the hospital.

Is the Minister satisfied that people subject to CTOs will have adequate access to advocacy under the Bill? Is he satisfied that information on rights to mental health advocates will be clear enough? My Liberal Democrat colleagues and I are concerned that the answer to those questions is no, which is why we tabled the amendment.

[Dr Evans]

I rise to speak to clause 6 and Government amendment 30. Clause 6 will make important amendments to conditions for community treatment orders under the Mental Health Act. CTOs are a tool that allows certain detained patients to receive ongoing treatment in the community rather than in hospital, providing continuity of care and supporting recovery outside institutional settings. Since their introduction in 2007, they have offered a mechanism to maintain contact with mental health services and prevent relapse while balancing the patient’s right to live more freely.

However, CTOs have not been without controversy. There is concern about their overuse and their disproportionate effect on black and ethnic minority patients. There are also a number of questions about the evidence for their effectiveness in reducing relapse or readmission. Moreover, concerns about coercion and the infringement of patient autonomy have been raised repeatedly. The 2018 independent review recommended tightening their use. Some also argue for going further by abolishing them completely.

Clause 6 seeks to address many of those concerns. It will introduce stronger safeguards, clear risk-based criteria and a maximum 12-month duration to prevent indefinite or inappropriate use. It will mandate patient involvement through consultation and regular review, promoting shared decision making. Accountability is enhanced by aligning CTOs with a code of practice and introducing external oversight. Crucially, CTOs will now be used only when there is a clear and necessary risk, focusing on clinical need and safety.

Challenges remain. The new requirements bring complex administration and an increasing workload for clinicians. Despite reforms, CTOs remain a form of compulsory treatment, raising concerns about ongoing coercion. Their success depends heavily on the availability of community services, which are not always adequately resourced. Finally, terms such as “serious harm” may be open to interpretation, risking inconsistency. To unpack all that, we must take a closer look.

Clause 6 rightly seeks to update and clarify the legal framework governing CTOs to ensure that their use is proportionate, justified and consistent with evolving standards of care and risk management. It does so primarily by aligning the grounds for making and renewing a CTO with the new, more precise risk criteria for detention. It specifies that a CTO should be made only if there is real risk that

“serious harm may be caused to the health or safety”

of a patient or others without treatment, and if that treatment is necessary given

“the nature, degree and likelihood of the harm”.

Again, there is an argument about the definition of “serious harm”, and the same discussion as the one we had under clause 5 about escalation of behaviour or cumulative concerns applies here.

In the light of that discussion, it might be helpful if the Minister clarified the interface between CTOs and grounds for detention. Is there scope for the code of conduct to cover the management of risk, both to the public and to patients themselves, across both? Given the emphasis placed on real risk of serious harm, clause 6 aligns CTOs more clearly with the threshold for detention, with the aim of reducing the inappropriate use or overuse of CTOs, which is much more welcome. It will help to safeguard and protect patients from unnecessary restrictions on their liberty, while maintaining the ability of a responsible clinician to act decisively when there is genuine risk.

[Sojan Joseph]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that CTOs help to keep people out of hospital so that rather than having long-term admissions, they can live in the community and in their own house, and that clinicians can recall patients to hospital if they are not complying with the agreed treatment?

[Dr Evans]

Spot on. The hon. Gentleman will have used them far more than I ever have, and that was exactly the point of them when they were brought in in 2008. The reason they have been so contentious is their misuse, misapplication and ongoing use. That is what we are trying to highlight. With clause 6 the Government are trying to streamline their use.

That leads me neatly on to why the Lords introduced clause 6(3), which Government amendment 30 would remove. It is about how to ensure that there is adequate oversight so that people do not remain on CTOs in perpetuity or, more likely, have them applied inappropriately. Concerns have been raised about racial disparities in the use of CTOs—particularly for black men, but there is also work to be done on those from other communities who find themselves on CTOs. The hon. Gentleman is right: that is the ethos behind ensuring that we push people to community care. The problem is how to set that against the legislation on CTOs and how to provide the resources to enable an appropriate setting for that care.

[Sojan Joseph]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is more an issue of practice than of the law itself?

[Dr Evans]

Yes. As the Minister pointed out on the Committee’s first day, legislation sets the culture. One the main reasons for the Wessely report was the racial disparities that had been found. We still have to look into the cause and effect of that, but one of the big markers was that CTOs were increasing indefinitely and seemed to hit certain communities disproportionately, without there being a full understanding of why. That was why in the House of Lords some argued that we should get rid of CTOs completely. The Opposition do not agree with that; we agree that clause 6 is important and that CTOs serve a purpose, for the reason that the hon. Gentleman explains so eloquently. The emphasis is on getting people into community treatment where we think it will be better for them, but ensuring that CTOs are not an undue burden on clinicians or patients and are not used inappropriately.

Clause 6(3), introduced in the Lords, sets out a maximum duration of 12 months for CTOs, after which an extension would require thorough review. That process would demand consultation with the patient, their nominated persons and relevant mental health professionals, and the written agreement of a qualified psychiatrist. That multi-layered review process is vital to ensure that any extension is based on clear therapeutic benefit and necessity rather than routine or bureaucratic inertia. Moreover, the requirement of regular reviews every six months to extend CTOs would further strengthen oversight and accountability. The involvement of tribunals, which may recommend variations or terminations, would add yet another layer of protection for patients’ rights, as the Government and Opposition both acknowledge.

While the reforms are, on the whole, positive, we must remain vigilant. The consideration of risks must be applied carefully and consistently to avoid unintended consequences such as deterring clinicians from using CTOs when they are genuinely needed.

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Taiwo Owatemi.)

Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Luke Evans Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Furniss.

I thank the hon. Members for Winchester and for Guildford for tabling this group of amendments. I will address each in turn, beginning with amendments 1, 4 and 51. We recognise that a lack of appropriate housing can be a barrier to discharge for some patients. That is why we have put the important reviews on a statutory footing. I am pleased to provide an assurance that the Bill already makes provision for any relevant recommendation about a patient’s discharge, including meeting their housing needs.

Statutory guidance will assist the responsible commissioner to determine who to involve in review meetings. That will include guidance on when the involvement of partners such as housing departments and organisations may be appropriate. Placing a specific requirement to consider the housing needs of every patient would mean that housing would have to be considered in every case, even if it is not a relevant issue. Potentially, that could divert focus from factors more relevant to the patient’s care and treatment.

On amendments 2 and 5, the Bill makes it clear that a copy of the review report must be provided to those who have a legal duty to have regard to the review recommendations, so that any recommendations are implemented as appropriate. The patient should receive the report, in line with good practice. However, we are concerned that requiring a longer list of people to receive the report in every case might increase the chance of patients withdrawing their consent for a review to be held, especially if they do not wish for those people to see the report. We recognise that it is often appropriate for the report to be provided to other people, such as those listed in the amendments, but the Bill was amended in the other place to make it clear that a copy of the report may be provided to other persons not listed in the legislation, with the patient’s consent.

Amendments 3 and 6 are unnecessary. The current drafting provides that review meetings take place at least once every 12 months. That is in addition to the requirement that arrangements must be made for an initial review meeting to take place within 14 days of admission for children and for some people aged 18 and over, and within 28 days for other adults. We also know that more frequent reviews may not be appropriate for all patients. For example, for a patient who is unable to be discharged for a long time, reviews that focus on discharge may be rather distressing.

Commissioners should use their judgment to determine whether the individual needs of a patient might mean that a more frequent review is appropriate. NHS England policy makes it clear that patients, their families and advocates can request a review meeting at any point. Statutory guidance will provide commissioners with further information on factors to consider when determining whether more frequent reviews should take place. For example, current practice, in line with NHS England policy, is that children under 18 should have a review meeting at least every three months—that will be made clear in the guidance. We consider it preferable to set out that information in statutory guidance, which can provide detailed case studies and be readily updated in line with emerging best practice, including on frequency and considering particular circumstances.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

The Minister makes a fair point about best practice. However, did the Government consider any mechanism for how best to share best practice across areas? Especially as the Bill also covers Wales, as heard this morning, it might be useful—across the integrated care boards—to understand the Government’s thinking on how to ensure that best practice in exemplar places, where care is really good, can be shared to help places where care might not be so good.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The shadow Minister is right, and one of the overarching objectives of this Government is to take the best of the NHS to the rest of the NHS. We are very keen to ensure that we identify best practice right across the board in all the services that we provide, and that it is then replicated and scaled up. We also recognise, though, that every community and area of the country is different, so it is not about exporting and importing best practice. It is more about looking at those exemplars and asking, “How could we use some of this, without reinventing the wheel?” That is absolutely the culture of how we want our health service to run—I think it is a cultural point.

[Dr Evans]

The Minister makes a good point about the differences in the country, one of which is how the Care Quality Commission looks at the standards. Especially as the CQC is under new leadership, will it be taking a role in looking at how best practice is implemented while ensuring standards?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The CQC has a key inspection role, which is an important check and balance in the system. I would rather see the incremental building of a culture of excellence across the board, including within upstream institutions, ICBs, local authorities, healthcare professionals, mental health professionals and social workers. We need to create a collaborative approach across the board so that best practice is developed within a culture of excellence. One would hope that the CQC, when it does its inspections, is then finding positive results. Of course, it also plays an important role in identifying, investigating and holding to account when things are not going as they should.

Finally, I will address amendment 7. The Bill requires named persons and bodies to have regard to the review recommendations. This is a well-established duty that clinicians, integrated care boards and other public bodies are used to applying and already exists within the Act. Where effective care and treatment is the central aim, we expect careful consideration of all recommendations. Where these bodies decide not to accept a relevant recommendation, we expect them to have a very good reason.

It is inappropriate to place an absolute duty on a body to follow recommendations in every case, as flexibility is required to depart from a recommendation where appropriate, for example if a recommendation is outside the body’s purview or not in the patient’s best interests. As currently drafted, the Bill already requires that certain named persons or bodies carefully consider the recommendations and give them appropriate weight. Where a body does not consider a recommendation appropriately, that may be subject to review by the courts. In the light of all this, I therefore thank the Liberal Democrats—

[Dr Evans]

The Minister is right about the absolute nature of the Liberal Democrat amendment, but we talked about the duty to respond requiring a body to set out why it has decided to take action or not. The Minister seemed to allude to that, but he then jumped to talking about being challenged in court. Is there a hybrid version within that duty to respond so that it could stipulate the setting out of why the body is accepting the recommendations or not, because that may well help transparency?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I see where the shadow Minister and the amendments are coming from, but there is a risk of over-embroidering the Bill if we try to load additional duties on to something that we believe is already happening. It is a very well-established duty that clinicians, integrated care boards and other public bodies are used to applying, and this already exists within the Act. I think there is an element here of “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

If there is compelling evidence that it is not working, clearly we need to intervene as a system, which is about real leadership at the ICB level. As things stand, we feel that this amendment is surplus to requirements for the reasons I have set out. I thank the hon. Members for Winchester and for Guildford for this exchange of views, and I hope that they are content to withdraw amendment 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Chambers]

Unfortunately, I was busy meeting Brian May and talking about farming, so I have not had a chance to work up a really good response.

The point of the Liberal Democrat amendments is to recognise that mental ill health requires holistic care and that many non-clinical factors directly influence mental health. Although the Bill’s scope is understandably narrow, very much focusing on people once they are admitted to hospital for treatment, we need to recognise that, if someone is discharged back into the situation from which they were admitted, they are very likely to have a relapse and to need treatment again. Some of those factors are non-clinical. For example, people living in poverty—those in the lowest 20% of income—are more than twice as likely to suffer mental health issues than those on an average income.

We strongly support the Bill, but we need to recognise that, on its own, it will not improve mental health or do anything to prevent people from developing mental health issues. If our amendments are not within scope or are not appropriate for the Bill, we urge the Minister to work with other Departments, such as the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, to ensure that this good piece of legislation, which we support, can be successful.

The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon made a point this morning about local authorities. He is right that local authority reorganisation is a challenge, especially when it comes to providing accommodation for young people and for people being discharged from mental health care centres. It is also an opportunity, because the current situation is not fit for purpose. Hampshire county council is struggling to provide the care these people need. Housing, which often affects young people’s mental health, is probably the single biggest issue that comes up in my inbox and when I knock on doors.

I thank the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth. As a clinician, his point about the evidence base, especially when it comes to reviews, is really important. We are discussing a Mental Health Bill that may not be changed significantly for another 40 years, so it is important that we use the best evidence. As a long-time trustee of an evidence-based medicine charity, I am passionate about this.

I thank the hon. Member for Thurrock for pointing out that clinical guidelines suggest six-month reviews. Yearly reviews are used for many medical conditions, and I would argue that a year is also an arbitrary period, rather than one based in evidence. Why six months and not a year, or why a year and not six months?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member is correct to establish the evidence base and the guidance. Broadly, we need to balance that with the logistics and the impact on the clinician, the patient and the resources. Move too far one way and it becomes a tick-box exercise or more resource-heavy; move too far the other way and the safeguards that we are trying to implement are lost or watered down.

When I look at the amendments, that is the balance I am trying to understand; if the guidelines are written with that in mind, that makes sense. The job of this House is to scrutinise the numbers and decide whether we agree that they are right, or whether we should push a bit harder—whether we should tighten the safeguards or relax them a little to allow clinicians more freedom of choice.

I guess that is the purpose of the Bill—getting the right boundary between the safety of the individual patient, support for the wider public, and making sure that clinicians have the freedom to make their judgment so that we are not stepping on expert opinion or, worse, creating bureaucratic processes. I hope the hon. Member understands that is why we are probing further on the rationale.

[Dr Chambers]

I completely agree with everything the hon. Member just said. Atul Gawande did a fantastic piece of work on checklists that emphasised the need for them not to become tick boxes. They are meant to involve active thinking and decision making.

I thank the Minister for reassuring us about housing. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Chambers]

Amendments 8 and 9 would insert a new subsection to extend to all children and young people under the age of 18 the duty on integrated care boards to establish and maintain a register of those at risk of detention. Amendment 9 would extend the duty on integrated care boards and local authorities to exercise their marketing functions in a way that seeks to ensure that children and young people’s needs can be met without detaining them.

Far too many children are unable to access the mental health care they need, leaving them more vulnerable to experiencing a mental health crisis that then requires detention, which all too often ends in tragedy. Child and adolescent mental health services are in a state of near collapse, with many children unable to access the care and treatment they need until their mental ill health has reached the point of crisis. Waiting 15 months in great mental distress is far too long, especially for children. It is a huge disruption not only to their personal development but to their education. Waiting up to two years for treatment is a huge proportion of a 12-year- old’s life.

We are pleased that the Bill, as it currently stands, includes specific provisions to prevent people with learning disabilities from requiring detention under the Act. The Government should take that approach for more people, especially our young people. Early intervention, delivered through regular check-ups and cutting waiting times for treatment by community services, is critical. We should not pretend that acute mental health services and in-patient care exist in a vacuum. The pressures they face are directly impacted by the quality of community services. We need stronger steps to ensure that fewer people require detention in the first place, especially children.

We are pleased that the Government are taking steps towards having mental health support in every school, for which we have long campaigned. We would like them to go further by ensuring a dedicated professional in every school. We are alarmed that the targets for mental health are being dropped, so I press the Government for assurances that the upcoming 10-year plan will ensure that children who are referred can expect swift and efficient support and treatment, with binding duties on health bodies to deliver that.

Alongside this Bill, what requirements and resources will ICBs have for preventing mental health crises? As part of that, will the Department make specific changes to CAMHS?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point about the pressure on CAMHS. In Leicestershire, about 45% of CAMHS referrals are for things like autism and ADHD, and the problem is that it takes a lot of services away from those who have eating disorders or depression, or who self-harm. Does he believe there is scope to reorganise services to make sure they are appropriate where there needs to be treatment? A child suffering with severe anxiety and self-harming tendencies should not be on a pathway with someone who has autism, for example. Has he given any thought to how this Bill might be a way of opening that door?

[Dr Chambers]

On the surface, what the shadow Minister says seems logical and makes sense. I am not a mental health clinician, so I want to be really careful about pushing in one direction. Whether someone has an eating disorder or is waiting for a diagnosis of something like ADHD, the waiting times are too long. We must better structure a system that ensures that everyone gets healthcare when they need it, rather than prioritising what we perceive as most important.

One of the most heartbreaking things that I hear from parents in Winchester, who are worried sick, is that young teenagers with an eating disorder have been told that they have to hit a lower BMI to reach the threshold to qualify for treatment. That is essentially saying that someone has to be sicker for longer. No one would ever say, “We’ll wait until your cancer reaches stage 4 before we start treatment,” but that is happening with eating disorders. The treatment will end up being longer, more complicated, more costly for the taxpayer and maybe less successful.

A question often comes up—the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon alluded to this—about the pressures on local authorities to deliver mental health care. Actually, the question is “How we can afford not to deliver it?” People with mental health disorders are ending up in A&E or prison and costing police time. It costs £52,000 a year to keep someone in prison, yet apparently we cannot afford to give them the community interventions that might stop them going there in the first place.

[Dr Chambers]

We support all efforts to keep young people happy and healthy in their communities. I visited Winchester Youth Counselling recently, where pupils can self-refer to talk through their issues. That does not involve any clinical personnel. It is hugely impactful and cost-effective and is part of the community. We support those community hubs.

Amendment 47 would specify risk factors for detention for people on the register of people at risk of detention under clause 4, including homelessness, addiction, domestic abuse, miscarriage and traumatic birth, experience of armed conflict, and bereavement. For anyone, including people with learning disabilities, life events can have a profound impact on mental ill health and can drive mental disorders. Well over a third of women with mental health problems have been a victim of domestic violence, and 50% of rough sleepers have mental health problems. The disastrous impact that bereavement can have on anxiety and depression, which are key factors in suicide, has been well documented.

It seems obvious, frustratingly, that public services do not currently reflect that key fact. There are no registers of bereaved children to ensure that they get the right support in the community and in school. There are no registers of veterans, despite their far higher risk of mental ill health and suicide. Women who have suffered a miscarriage do not receive an automatic referral, including to mental health services. The Government need to ensure that people can get mental health assessment and support at key points in their life, including the most traumatic moments.

[Dr Evans]

We have certain registers of carers, for example in primary care. There is a stipulation about moving towards veterans being included. Who does the hon. Gentleman think might hold the register, in the light of his amendment?

[Dr Chambers]

I do not know the best place for it to be held. That is an important point. For a lot of the issues that Members are bringing up, we are not expecting there to be answers today. However, we want to ensure that they are all being considered, given that the subject might not return to Parliament for another 40 years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Evans]

I rise to speak to Liberal Democrat amendments 8, 47 and 9 to clause 4, which seek to expand the scope of the at-risk register, define risk factors and protect children and young people from unnecessary detention under the Mental Health Act.

Let me start by acknowledging the intent behind the proposals. There is genuine merit in ensuring that those who are at risk of detention, particularly children, are visible to the system before crisis point. That view is shared on both sides of the House. I also share the concern that we are too often intervening too late, after a child or young person has already reached breaking point; I would add families to that, because they also bear a lot of the brunt, especially when it comes to waiting. By extension, when there are waiting lists, as the hon. Member for Winchester mentioned, the clinicians themselves—often the GP—will struggle to deal with patients and families when they do not have the clinical expertise necessary for the most severe interventions.

Amendment 9, which would include all under-18s at risk of detention on the register, reflects that preventive ambition. Likewise, the proposed list of risk factors, including bereavement, homelessness and domestic abuse, rightly recognises the social determinants of mental ill health, which are all too often overlooked. However, I have some reservations about the proposals in their current form.

First, on the register for all under-18s, expanding the duty so broadly raises serious questions about safeguarding, data protection and deliverability. Children and young people are already subject to multiple overlapping systems, from social care to CAMHS and education, health and care plans. Before laying on a new national register, we should ask what safeguards will be in place, who will manage the data, and how it will integrate with existing responsibilities such as those under the Children Act 1989 and the special educational needs frameworks.

Secondly, although I agree that we must understand the drivers of detention, the list of mandatory risk factors, including miscarriage, bereavement and even armed conflict—all of which are profoundly serious—could widen the scope of the register so far that it loses operational focus, as we have heard. That is why the Opposition have tabled a later amendment to define it as childhood trauma instead, which is a more encompassing way of dealing with it. Also, we risk casting the net too wide without necessarily improving outcomes for targeting the right support or, conversely, missing something. For example, looking at that list, I would argue that gang violence or gang involvement is a key factor that Members on both sides of the House would agree is very pertinent, and yet it is not mentioned. Therein lies a problem.

Thirdly, amendment 9 seeks to prevent the detention of children and young people unless it is absolutely necessary, which is a principle that I wholeheartedly support, but how do the Lib Dems propose that it be enforced? What levers are in place if a service fails to deliver that community-based service? Without resourcing CAMHS, investing in crisis alternatives and reforming commissioning models, the duty risks being symbolic rather than systemic. In essence, the hon. Member for Winchester is trying to make the point that we should have these discussions.

Although I support the goals of the amendments—visibility, prevention and early support—I am not sure that the specific mechanisms in them are the best way to safeguard achieving them. Instead, I wonder whether consideration has been given to piloting regional early intervention panels for under-18s at risk of admission, building on existing safeguards in educational frameworks, rather than creating separate registers. Alternatively, we could include risk indicators in statutory guidance, rather than setting them rigidly in legislation, which I think was the point made by the Government. That would allow some clinical judgment and flexibility. Above all, we must ensure that ICBs are not just given duties, but held to account. How are they are going to deliver them? That means having the right metrics and oversight and a strong role for advocacy and families.

[Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)]

The shadow Minister is making some useful observations about best practice. One of the real injustices that we are seeing with detention at the moment is the racial disparities in detention rates. One could argue that such a disparity is a potential risk factor, but behind it is something that we should be addressing through dealing with inequalities in the mental health system, particularly the unwarranted variation in practice from clinicians perhaps making discriminatory judgments in these cases. Does the shadow Minister agree that that is another reason why we should not be over-specifying some of these points where we see associations between risk factors and detention rates under the Mental Health Act, and that therefore we should not be including them in the Bill?

[Dr Evans]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady’s end point and with the thrust of what she says. Causality is not causation, and we need to be very careful. When we get to the later clauses of the Bill, that will be at the forefront of our discussion.

We cannot deny the reason we are having this legislative debate in the first place: the observation that black men in particular are subject to community treatment orders far more than any other group in the country. However, we must not make a lazy causal analysis and say, “Well, just because that is the case.” For example, black men have a higher risk of prostate cancer, and white people a higher chance of coeliac disease, because of the genetic basis. Is there something in that? Is there systemic bias by clinicians, as she hinted? That all needs to be explored.

The hon. Member for Shipley beat me to the punch when it comes to my closing statement. We owe it to our children and young people not to legislate in haste, so I welcome the spirit of the amendments, and I welcome the debate, but we must be careful to ensure that we are truly legislating for and defining exactly what we know. Otherwise, we risk creating other inequalities and unintended consequences or, worse still, a system that becomes even more flabby and difficult to manoeuvre through. That is the last thing we want for our patients, clinicians and the public.

[Gregory Stafford]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I have some criticisms of the specifics of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Winchester, but I entirely support him and congratulate him on the passion with which he spoke about them. As I remember, his maiden speech touched on a number of these issues. Whether they are within the scope of the Bill is for the Clerks and the Committee to decide, but he made several extraordinarily good points that I hope the Government will take away. If the Bill is not the appropriate place for them, there should be another avenue.

The lead amendment is about the ICB register. It would insert a new subsection to extend the duty on integrated care boards to establish and maintain a register for those at risk of detention to cover all children and young people who meet certain risk criteria. As drafted, the duty to maintain a register under clause 4 may not explicitly include all under-18s. Therefore, the amendment would ensure that children and young people are proactively identified and supported before reaching a crisis point that might lead to detention.

Clearly, there are positives. As the hon. Member stated, early intervention might help to prevent unnecessary detention by identifying risk earlier, which is especially important for children. Likewise, there is a strong argument about equity and care to ensure that young people receive the same proactive planning as adults. That would clearly lead to improved safeguarding through better tracking of vulnerable minors in the mental health system. A corollary to that would be better data collection on youth mental health needs, which I think we would all support. We would be able to use that information to support more informed policymaking and resource decisions.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth highlighted, however, and as I highlighted in the debates on other clauses, there would clearly be a resource demand, especially on ICBs, from expanding registers and services. Likewise, there is the complexity of implementation, because defining who qualifies as being “at risk” may be subjective. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Winchester, when he sums up on the amendments, to give us some indication of how “at risk” would be defined, or whether that would simply be down to the mental health professional or some other medical professional. There are also, of course, privacy and consent concerns related to maintaining a register for minors. Again, the hon. Member may have thought about some practical things that could assuage my concerns about that.

There may also be a risk of stigmatisation. We have to be very careful, especially with children and young people, because being labelled or treated differently due to being on the register would not help their mental health. We would have to have some really strict privacy and data-sharing controls to ensure that they were protected within the proposed system.

As I said in my intervention, I entirely support the aims of amendment 47 because it would specify the risk factors for detention for those on the register of people at risk of detention under clause 4. The criteria for identifying such individuals are left to be defined in regulations as the Bill stands. The amendment would mandate in law specific evidence-based risk factors—which I agree are risk factors for the issues that the hon. Member is talking about, particularly those linked to trauma and social disadvantage—rather than leaving them to discretion.

At a general level, the amendment recognises the role of trauma and social determinants in mental health crises—I congratulate the hon. Member on clearly explaining some of the factors. Going back to our debate on the previous group of amendments, that would improve the early identification of individuals at risk, promote preventive care, strengthen equity and provide clarity and consistency. However, like my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth, I am concerned about prescribing a relatively small list and therefore limiting the clause’s flexibility—there may be risk factors that are not listed in the amendment or ones that we have not even thought of.

[Gregory Stafford]

I agree with the hon. Lady; that is my understanding, but perhaps the Minister can confirm that when he sums up. The flexibility in the clause is one of its strengths.

[Dr Evans]

Does my hon. Friend share my opinion that it makes sense to agree with the Government? The impact of social media and the evidence coming out about using mobile phones and about the impact of certain sites have been debated in this House for the last five years—since I have been here—and there have been advances. Legislation has been brought forward, but there is a growing consensus on both sides of the House that it never quite keeps up. Allowing the Secretary of State to add risk factors as they come up, even in policy guidance, might be a shrewder way to future-proof the Bill against those difficulties. In 1983, we were not discussing or even thinking about the likes of Facebook, yet here we are. With the advent of artificial intelligence, who knows where we will be in another 40 years?

[Gregory Stafford]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. To touch on his point about social media, it is a very useful tool, but is deeply pervasive and can cause the bullying, harassment and mental health issues that he describes. As far as I can tell, the risk factors in amendment 47 would not cover something like that unless it was part of something else—for example, part of domestic abuse, armed conflict and so on.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

Again, I thank the hon. Member for Winchester for his amendments. I understand the intent behind amendments 8 and 9, but the clauses on registers and the associated duties on integrated care boards and local authorities are specifically aimed at people with a learning disability and autistic people, because of the detrimental outcomes that these groups of people may suffer when detained.

We recognise the concern around the treatment of children and young people, which is why we have several provisions in the Bill aimed at improving their care. However, dynamic support registers are particularly tailored to the needs of people with a learning disability and autistic people, and have been established in NHS England’s policy for some time. We do not have evidence that they would be an appropriate mechanism for wider cohorts.

We do recognise that bereavement, miscarriage, the experience of trauma and difficult life transitions can all have a bearing on mental health. However, access to mental health support is based on clinical need, not on the circumstances that might give rise to that need.

[Dr Evans]

The Minister is right about the registers, but I did notice that the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill introduced the unique identifier number. That came about after the Lord Laming report into Victoria Climbié, who was “lost in the system.” It also builds on the work of the Children’s Commissioner, which found that around 10,000 children are not in school. Is there a role for getting some of the identifiers that we are looking at here in place along with that unique identifier number?

Equally, how does that unique identifier input into the Bill’s provisions on risk registers, now that that piece of legislation has passed Third Reading? There will be an interaction, but the unique identifier is much broader and the dynamic support register is held slightly differently. What work have the Government done to ensure that there is bridging and understanding about what that would look like, not only in the short term but in the long term?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The dynamic support register is specifically focused on people, both children and adults, who have learning disabilities and people who are autistic. I think it is quite a separate thing. I am not familiar with the detail of that education legislation but, as the hon. Gentleman says, it is a very broad identifier not based at all on the clinical conditions of the persons, as I understand it, whereas this is very focused and specific for people with the conditions that we are debating. I do not think that there would be a connection between the two.

[Dr Evans]

Let me take the example of a young person with deteriorating or fluctuating problems. They may be in school or out of school. We know that people with autism and learning disabilities are at greater risk of abuse and of being taken advantage of. If the Minister is not aware of it, would he look at how this duality could work, because clearly there is scope?

One benefit that the Government argued for in having this unique number was that it could be shared across these registers. It sounds as if there is work that could be done. The Minister is absolutely right, and I am not suggesting merging the two, but on the risk register, there could be a nice piece of crossover work to pull that all together, so that the information moves across agencies. What we know from people with severe learning disabilities, autism and mental health issues is that they are often in contact with multiple agencies at multiple times—from social services to, potentially, the police, the NHS, dentistry and, of course, educational settings, which might be multiplicitous. Is that a consideration that the Minister will take forward?

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[Zöe Franklin]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire (Ian Sollom), and I am sure many in this room will remember his passionate speech about his constituent Declan Morrison, who has inspired many of these amendments. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his help with my notes.

Amendment 20 would require integrated care boards to establish and maintain appropriate crisis accommodation specifically designed for people with autism and learning disability, as one its duties in relation to registers of people at risk of detention. Currently, just over 2,000 people with autism or learning disabilities are detained in mental health hospitals for an average of five years. Over half of delayed discharges are due to a lack of suitable housing or accommodation.

The crisis provision created in Cambridgeshire after my hon. Friend’s constituent Declan passed away was operating at 90% capacity before funding was withdrawn. When we hear Declan’s story, we realise the severe implications behind the amendment and why it is being put forward. We must also recognise that there has been a significant increase in section 136 use over the past 10 years. Many of the suites being used are outdated, unable to keep up with demand and unfit for purpose.

The amendment would therefore make appropriate crisis accommodation a statutory duty, and I hope all Members would agree that there is a desperate need for such accommodation, specifically for autistic people and those with learning disabilities. It would also require there to be specialist training for staff. We have already referenced today how important training is when it comes to protecting those who are in crisis and who need support. Finally, it would provide for safe, alternative detention under section 136, preventing situations such as that experienced by the hon. Friend’s constituent, where a vulnerable person is held in inappropriate emergency settings for extended periods.

Amendments 10 and 22 are both designed to ensure that there are sufficient resources for people with autism or learning disabilities. On amendment 10, it is crucial that community services are properly resourced to meet the needs of people with autism and learning disabilities. Too many of us will have seen how inadequate community services make detention and in-patient care much more likely, which is worse for the person detained, far more costly and unsustainable in the long term. Our amendments place duties on the integrated care board at the local level, and the Secretary of State at the national level, to be transparent about gaps in provision and to take steps to eliminate them.

Amendment 22 would require an integrated care board to conduct an assessment of the availability and adequacy of the relevant services within its area for people with autism or learning disabilities who have specified risk factors for detention, and to set out a plan to respond to those findings. There is currently an absence of suitable placements, with over 100 places that were contacted having no single bed available. We cannot continue with such a situation, given the significant implications when things go wrong.

Through those amendments, we are asking for an assessment, because there is currently no systematic assessment of whether services match demand, which is crucial to ensuring that the Bill is workable in the long term. It is also acknowledged that it may take 10 years to fully implement the Bill and to ensure that additional clinical and judicial staff are trained.

Amendment 21 was also tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire. It would establish an accelerated implementation timeline for provisions related to autism and learning disabilities, requiring those provisions to be fully implemented within two years. Currently, just over 2,000 autistic people and people with learning disabilities are detained in mental health hospitals who are being let down by the system.

The Government have sadly already missed the targets, and we cannot afford to wait another decade—people’s lives are too important. In fact, the UN Human Rights Committee has called on the UK to end the detention of people with disabilities based solely on their disability. Every day that we wait means more people at risk of tragic outcomes. As I said, the amendment would establish a two-year deadline, and it recognises that these are some of the most urgent reforms in the Bill. I ask the Government to consider them as a priority.

Finally, amendment 24, which was also tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, would establish an accelerated implementation timeline of services related to autism and learning disabilities, by again requiring them to be implemented within two years. I reiterate what we heard in the Chamber, which I am sure we will all hear in our inboxes and in conversations with our residents: it is crucial that we implement these changes at pace; otherwise, we risk failing individuals with autism and learning disabilities further.

[Dr Evans]

I will direct my remarks at new clause 11 and the amendments spoken to by the hon. Member for Guildford. New clause 11 seeks a clear, costed and consultative plan to help ensure that integrated care boards and local authorities are properly equipped to deliver the community-based services that individuals with learning disabilities and autism need and, of course, deserve, so that they are not unnecessarily detained under part 2 of the Mental Health Act.

Let me begin by recognising the good intentions across the House when it comes to reducing inappropriate and prolonged detentions in mental health settings. There is broad consensus that detention should be the last resort. However, good intentions must be matched by a concrete, deliverable plan because, as the evidence has shown, too many people are being held in hospitals or other facilities, not because of clinical need, but because the right community support simply is not there.

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[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent case for new clause 11, which could potentially solve funding issues I have raised. He mentioned the NHS 10-year plan. Will he suggest that the Minister looks at ensuring that, if new clause 11 is not passed today, the details in it are fed through into the plan? When it is published, which the Minister has indicated will be relatively soon, the information and outcomes my hon. Friend is trying to achieve through the new clause could be in it.

[Dr Evans]

Far be it from me to tell the Minister what to do, but if I were a wise Minister, I might look at where my predecessors had benefitted from further information and where they may have stumbled. The Bill has been looked at for a number of years by many people from outside and inside the House. Many have been involved throughout its progress, including a former Prime Minister, who tabled amendments in the other place. There is definitely the ability to learn from what the last Government found and to use that information in the kinds of plans that we need.

[Anna Dixon]

The hon. Gentleman elaborates on the great history of the previous Conservative Government. From where I am sitting, the record is less rose-tinted—but perhaps I am wearing different spectacles. Might he return to the substance of new clause 11, which, it seems to me, is about community provision? I return to the points that I raised earlier about proposed new section 125E. I do not see what new clause 11 adds to the Bill in regard to duties relating to the commissioning of services. I encourage him to address the specifics of the amendment.

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[Dr Evans]

I shall be interested to know what the hon. Lady’s rose-tinted spectacles show when we consider Scotland or Wales. One of my biggest frustrations in debates about the NHS is that in each nation health is devolved, each is run by a different political party, and each has challenges. We in this place enjoy the political football, scoring points without seeing what is blindingly obvious: that across the board, across all the countries, health and mental health services are struggling to keep pace and keep our population healthy with the workforce and technology provided.

[Jen Craft]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Evans]

Let me address these points, then I will be happy to give way. When we come to clause stand part, I will address the other amendments, but I specifically said that my comments would be on new clause 11. When scrutinising the Bill, it is important that we talk about how we will deliver, as the hon. Member for Shipley rightly pointed out. It is entirely right to try to put together a plan to ensure that the Government are held accountable. We are not saying how the plan should be formulated; we simply stipulate that a plan should be formulated and introduced. That is a very different argument.

My concern about previous Lib Dem amendments was that they were too specific. We have to get the balance right. New clause 11 simply provides that the Government have 18 months to introduce a fully costed plan, so that we can again have a debate in this House. Especially as a spending review will, I believe, be announced tomorrow, we need to consider how we will match budgets in the future. We accept that it is a 10-year project.

[Anna Dixon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Evans]

I am still addressing the hon. Lady’s first point. The Conservatives understand that it will take a long time to put in place, but a credible plan is needed. There was a credible plan in place, as I have said, in the 2011 and 2016 strategies, with the funding to match. I use that as an illustration because it is provides an apt evidence base for the new clause. Otherwise, I might well be challenged by someone saying, “What is your evidence base of a delivery network and a delivery ability from a Government?” I hope that by talking through these points, I am giving the Government the chance to learn from the mistakes we made and from the way we took forward mental health. Regardless of political party, I hope hon. Members that the debate has moved on a long way from when we started in 2010 with the work done partly under the coalition Government. I will now take the intervention.

[Jen Craft]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for reflecting on the fact that mistakes were made by the previous Government—acknowledgment of that is often sorely lacking. I respect the fact that he says that the debate has moved on, but does he accept that while the debate may have moved on, policy to enact actual change for people who are detained under the Mental Health Act, particularly those with learning disabilities and autism, has not kept pace? The number of people in locked units, under detention, has remained solid, without much wavering, for the past 14 years. Despite the acknowledgement that this is a scandal, and we should all hang our head in shame that it continues to this day, not much has been done to get them out of those units.

While we look back on the history of the past 14 years, focusing specifically on the people who are detained under the Mental Health Act, let us remember that Lord Darzi pointed out in his report that some of the facilities are more redolent of the Victorian era than of a modern mental health care service. Perhaps those who were in government in those 14 years should reflect on why that is the case.

[Dr Evans]

There is quite a lot to unpack in the hon. Lady’s intervention. As I pointed out, reflecting on what the previous Government learned is also important—for example, when considering Wales. Objectively, the data shows that Wales is struggling more than England, and the same is true of Scotland. Wales and Scotland have been run by different parties from England for a long time, so my natural inclination is to attack back and say, “Well, actually, the Conservatives did better,” but my fundamental point is that we all need to do better because we have seen the problems rising. As I mentioned, over the last 10 years the number of people turning up in mental health facilities has increased by a quarter.

On the hon. Lady’s point about people with autism and learning disabilities, I sat on the Health and Social Care Committee that looked specifically at that issue. We looked at some of the best models in the world, including that of Trieste, where community care is in place. When we took evidence, we found that most people were supportive of that model, but fearful people did come forward to say that the community was not the best place for their daughter, son, husband or wife. Managing the nuance is really important. It takes time to get this right. In 2018, when the last Government looked to legislate on this issue, there was pre-legislative scrutiny, which does not always happen in this place. It was done because there was fundamental agreement that we must get the legislation right, because it applies to the most vulnerable people.

The hon. Lady is right that Lord Darzi identified three shifts that will be really important, but when he looked at this issue, he missed a fundamental point. His report starts from 2010, but when I was a junior doctor— I qualified in 2007—we had issues that affect the culture now: for example, how we managed MRSA and C. diff. That was not a brilliant time to be a patient. The medical training application service fiasco affected doctors applying for jobs so much that in 2004 the Government had to apologise and change the system, because so many people who wanted to get into specialist training could not go through that service.

We are still paying for IT infrastructure that the last Labour Government tried to introduce. The last report, in 2018, said that that cost the taxpayer almost £14 billion. We wonder why, when we try to make a shift to introduce more tech, as recommended by Darzi, people in the NHS are reticent, but they have been burnt by IT projects before. They have seen what happened under a Conservative Government, a coalition Government, and a Labour Government. All that has an immediate and impregnable effect on the legislation and the practicalities that we are dealing with today.

I am not trying to talk facetiously about the legislation; the point is to give some pragmatic direction and to actually say something tangible. On that basis, I look forward to the Minister hopefully supporting proposed new clause 11, which would give the Government the flexibility to have a plan that they choose, as is their democratic right, but also the safeguards to know that it will be delivered and we will not have more delay. There is a balance between making legislation in haste and making sure that we avoid inaction. Would the hon. Member for Shipley like to intervene?

[Anna Dixon]

Yes, briefly. I was trying to get the hon. Gentleman back to the point, which is people with autism and learning disabilities, rather than mental health policy in general. The point of reference I used earlier was the failure to deal with Winterbourne View in 2012. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock made the point very well: if we get down to it, we are talking about community provision for people with learning disabilities and autism. Too many people remain institutionalised, too far from their family, friends and community. I was pointing at that failing. I encourage the hon. Member to get back to that point. Would you like to give clarity on what is within scope of the group of amendments that we are currently debating, Ms Furniss?

[Dr Evans]

You may want to set me straight, Ms Furniss, but as we have agreed, I will directly address those points in the clause 4 stand part discussion. The hon. Member for Shipley rightly talks about community settings, but where does she think primary care staff come from? They come through medical training. When we talk about the Darzi impact, it is important that we fully understand why people choose not to go into mental health or primary care and become a GP. Without establishing that, which is a problem that this Government have to deal with, we will run into real problems when it comes to delivery.

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[Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. The new clause is incredibly important. We do not want vulnerable people to slip through the cracks and not receive the right support, and it is really important to ensure that there is consultation with the right stakeholders. I recently met with Down Syndrome Cheshire, and last year I met with the Cheshire West and Chester SEND accountability group. They said that one of the things they value most is being listened to so that they can inform the process. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is a really crucial part of new clause 11?

[Dr Evans]

My hon. Friend speaks to the heart of what we all know from our constituency day jobs, where many of us here in this place speak to outside organisations and families. On Second Reading, the hon. Member for St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire talked passionately about the impacts and the sorry stories that we have all heard about. The whole point of this Bill is to make mental health care patient-centred, but also family and advocate-centred. That is a driving thrust of what the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care was asking us for, and it is why we have enshrined the individual in the first clause of the Bill.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: if we are committed to the principle enshrined on the front of the Bill, we need co-production. That must be more than a tick-box exercise. If the Government believe that the necessary plan is already in place, will the Minister say where that is covered, and would he put that plan in the House of Commons Library? Is it fully costed? Has it been fully consulted on? Will it be published within 18 months and incorporated in the NHS long-term plan? If not, how will the ICBs and local authorities be expected to deliver? How will the changes to NHS England affect plans to deliver the legislation? Having the legal duty to produce a costed plan will provide a focal point and fulcrum to build around, to ensure that the most serious mental health conditions receive the attention they need.

I know the Minister cares deeply and wants to do his best. He wants the legislation to be enacted as swiftly as possible. I also recognise the commitments and priorities facing the country, but this new clause is about turning good intentions into action. I simply aim to strengthen the hand of the Minister when it comes to negotiating with the Chancellor about funding, so that he has the evidence base required to bolster his position. I hope hon. Members across the Committee, especially on the Government Benches, see it as a supportive, sensible, balanced and practical solution to have this debate and then campaign with the Chancellor to get the money needed for the services.

Turning to the Lib Dem amendments, I begin by recognising the genuine intent behind amendments 10, 22, 24 and 21. Addressing the needs of people with autism and learning disabilities, particularly ensuring appropriate crisis accommodation and reducing unnecessary detention, is unquestionably important. That said, I have specific concerns about legislating for service provision in the Bill.

I understand why we do not legislate for the number of intensive care units, hospices or detox centres in the health system. There is an argument that that might be a good idea. Those are critical services, yet their commissioning and capacity are generally managed through policy funding decisions and local planning, rather than through statutory duties. Introducing a statutory duty for crisis accommodation risks unintended consequences. It may limit the flexibility of integrated care boards to respond to local needs, and could impose significant new resource burdens without clear funding commitments. That risks setting a precedent for increasingly prescriptive legislation across health and social care, which we should approach cautiously. We do not want to pit one condition against another.

On the proposed requirement on the Secretary of State to produce a commissioning plan within four months, I acknowledge the desire for a timely response. The choice of a four-month deadline, however, seems arbitrary and may not allow sufficient time for robust consultation and realistic planning. We need to be mindful that rushed plans can undermine long-term success.

On the proposed reporting requirements, although transparency is vital, I highlight that new clause 11, which we are proposing, would provide stronger and more detailed mechanisms to hold the Government to account on implementation and resource allocation, while allowing flexibility. We should focus on supporting those provisions rather than layer on multiple overlapping reporting duties, which risk duplication and confusion. In conclusion, the amendments raise important points and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Sojan Joseph]

I will briefly trot through the proposed amendments and new clause. We all know that the closure of learning disability hospitals was a gradual process. The reason was the institutionalisation of some of those patients, as seen in the Winterbourne View scandal. The aim was to create new community-based housing to look after people with learning disabilities and autism. Amendment 20 seeks to create appropriate fully staffed crisis accommodation. Will the Lib Dems clarify whether they are looking to create more in-patient settings? Are we going back to where we were years ago, or should we work with the new plan to create more community-based accommodation?

Not all patients with a learning disability or autism need detention or community-based accommodation. Many of them are looked after by their family members, so we also need to look into the support we are providing to carers, so that we can keep those people at home with their family member’s support.

I will keep this brief: as a member of the all-party parliamentary group on adult social care, I recently met with many people who have lived experience of this. They want their views to be heard. They are not asking for more hospital settings; they are asking for more support, including for carers. I was pleased to see that the Minister for Care was there to engage with those people.

In the new NHS 10-year plan, the focus is on moving care from the hospitals to the community. Can the Minister clarify how we can make that happen? We have talked about that for many years, but we have never seen it happening. In my own experience practising in a mental health ward, many patients with a learning disability and autism were detained and, as the hon. Member said, kept in hospitals because we could not find a suitable place for them to be discharged to—it was not that they needed the hospital.

I think we are all talking about the same thing, but we need to find a solution. That is why the new NHS 10-year plan and its focus on moving care from the hospitals to the community is important. Again, can the Minister clarify how we will do that? The Government have already started the work, and the new commission, led by Baroness Casey, should also be looking into where we will find the social care support for carers and the community provision for people with learning disability, rather than just creating more crisis accommodations.

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member mentioned Baroness Casey, for whom I have the utmost respect, but herein lies the problem: she is still currently undertaking a review for the Home Office that has now been delayed and has not concluded. This is at the same time that she is supposed to be looking at social care. The whole idea of an amendment that asks for a statutory plan is to stop these kind of slippages. Given his point about wanting to see progress, is that something that he would consider if he were voting on this new clause?

[Sojan Joseph]

I hope that Baroness Casey completes her commission work and gives us her report. It was promised in the Chamber that the initial report would be available within a year. Regardless of whether she is taking up another role, I hope there will not be any delay and that we get that report and a detailed report within three years. I am looking for a solid plan to fix this problem forever. I am not looking for sticking plasters or an immediate fix, but we need a plan, perhaps including a national care service. These are the people who are looking for a long-term solution to these problems.

The hon. Member asked about how I will vote; unfortunately, I will not be supporting new clause 11. The Government have already started some work, which is why I am specifically talking about the NHS 10-year plan to move care from hospitals to the community, along with the social care commission, which is looking into how we can get good progress on that. This is the answer; we need to get a long-term solution to this problem.

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[Zöe Franklin]

Having had a conversation with my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester, I can say that we will withdraw the amendment. However, we hope that the Minister will ensure that the provisions addressing the need for training in such situations will come soon, and with a timeline, so that all members of the Committee understand when we will see the statutory guidance. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dr Evans]

It is a shame that the hon. Member for Shipley is not in her place to hear me speak to the rest of the clause 4, having considered the amendments to it first—[Interruption.] Oh, she is here just in time. I am grateful to the Government and the Chair, as the clause stand part debate allows things to be more structured.

I want to discuss proposed new part 8A of the Mental Health Act 1983, which will introduce welcome changes to provisions specific to people in England with autism or learning disabilities who are subject to detention under the Act. At the outset, let me say that the Opposition welcome the Government’s recognition that people with autism or learning disabilities require a tailored and rights-based approach within our health system. We know—the evidence points clearly to the fact—that such individuals have been inappropriately detained in institutional settings, often for years, without the care and support that they truly need. The creation of a statutory care, education and treatment review in legislation was a step in the right direction. It therefore makes sense in this part of our proceedings to discuss such reviews.

The background is really important to understanding what the measure will do. Care, education and treatment reviews were introduced in 2015 as part of the Transforming Care programme, a joint initiative between NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care under the last Government. The TCP was launched in response to the Winterbourne View scandal, which we have heard mentioned a few times, where serious abuses of people with learning disabilities and autism in private hospitals were exposed.

The purpose of CETRs in the Transforming Care programme was to ensure multi-agency oversight of care plans for people with learning disabilities and/or autism, particularly those with complex needs detained in in-patient or secure settings. They were there to promote person-centred care by involving patients, families and a broad range of professionals; to identify barriers to discharge and support safe, timely moves to community or less restrictive settings; and to improve care quality and reduce inappropriate long-term in-patient stays.

The implementation timetable started in 2015 with CETRs introduced as a mandatory part of the TCP, initially focusing on children and adults with learning disabilities and/or autism in in-patient settings. In 2017 to 2019, CETRs were expanded and refined, with NHS England producing guidance and a framework for conducting reviews consistently. Ongoing, CETRs are now embedded across the health and social care systems, extending beyond learning disabilities to other groups with complex mental health needs, including secure mental health services.

CETRs are multidisciplinary independent reviews designed to improve the care and treatment of people with complex mental health needs, particularly those detained in secure hospitals or secure settings, such as children and young people with learning disabilities, autism or complex mental health needs, or in other in-patient settings where there are concerns about the appropriateness of their care, treatment or placement. The purpose is to ensure that the care, education and treatment plans are appropriate, person-centred and holistic; to identify and address any barriers to overcoming recovery and discharge; to promote co-ordinated working between health, social care, education and other relevant services; and to support the least restrictive care principle, one that we have now enshrined in the Bill—helping people to move to less restrictive settings where possible.

There are, however, some complications. The number of CETRs has increased over recent years, especially with the growing recognition of the need for better oversight of complex needs. Several hundred CETRs take place annually across England and Wales, primarily within secure and specialist mental health services. Exact numbers are quite difficult to pin down and vary by service user populations, health trusts, NHS England monitoring and the reporting of the activity.

What is a CETR made up of? That is really important. A typical CETR involves a multidisciplinary panel including independent clinical reviewers such as a senior psychiatrist or clinician not involved in direct care; representatives from social care services; educational specialists, especially for children and young people; advocates or independent mental health advocates; the patient or service users themselves, where possible, to ensure their voice is central; family members or carers where appropriate and with consent; and commissioners and other relevant professionals involved in the person’s care pathway.

Under the review process, the panel examines the individual care, the treatment, the education and progress. It assesses whether the current placement and treatment plan are meeting the person’s needs and whether there is scope to support transition to less restrictive or more appropriate settings. Recommendations may be made on changes to care, treatment plans, discharge or support arrangements.

CETRs are a very valuable safeguard. They bring together the independent clinicians, the social care professionals, the educators, the advocates and, crucially, the patients and their families to review the care and treatment being provided. The aim is to ensure that the treatment is person-centred, appropriate and geared towards recovery, while also exploring opportunities to move people to less restrictive environments when safe to do so. That said, while CETRs are increasingly used, questions remain about their consistency, effectiveness and impacts on outcomes. On page 12 of the explanatory notes, paragraph 46 states that

“recommendations are not always being acted upon”,

which is contributing to

“the perpetuated detention of people with a learning disability and autistic people, often without therapeutic benefit.”

That is really significant. To that end, how many CETRs are conducted annually and what are the mechanics in place to ensure that the reviews lead to meaningful change in care, rather than becoming a procedural exercise? I must admit that I struggled to find that information. If I, as someone looking into it, am struggling, there is a concern about how wide that information and data is.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

I am conscious that we will be voting imminently, so I will try to rattle through. Going back to my phrase “the red thread”, the thread running through all the shadow Minister’s questions is delivery. The proof of the pudding in all legislation is whether we convert it into action in a way that best delivers for the interests of the British people, and in a way that absorbs the risks, builds resilience in the system and ensures that we are constantly monitoring, evaluating, reviewing and learning from what is happening on the ground and, through a constant process, improving delivery.

The shadow Minister asks some very good questions, but the problem is that so many will relate to the work that we need to do at pace as soon as the Bill receives Royal Assent. This is a sequential process; we first need the legislation and the comprehensive spending review, so that we know our funding package. We then need to start work consulting on the code of practice, getting that feedback and shaping a plan that defines what good community services look like, because we all know that we are a million miles from having good community services at the current time. We are in a state of crisis and the system is on its knees; we are very conscious of all those facts. There is an immense urgency with all this.

The shadow Minister asked about evaluating and updating pathways and CETRs, duty to respond, the information collected, managing the risks, preventing paternalism and ensuring that people do not get labelled. All those things will have to be set out and explained in the project plan. That is something we will all be working very hard on as soon as the Bill gets Royal Assent.

One of the shadow Minister’s factual questions was on how many CETRs have been issued. I cannot give him that number, but I can tell him that, as set out in the impact assessment, 86% of in-patients received a CETR in the last year. If my answer that this is about delivery does not satisfy him and he thinks there are issues that relate directly to the Bill rather than to the implementation plan, I am happy to write to him on that.

[Dr Evans]

I appreciate what the Minister is saying. The blue threat, or blue and yellow thread, running through the debate is the question of how much needs to be in the primary legislation. The argument from the Conservative side has been that, while some of the Lib Dem amendments are too restrictive, the danger is that the freedom and flexibility at the Government’s end is too loose. I trust the Minister implicitly—but, having seen Ministers on our side come and go, there could be a change within Government or a change of colour of Government, and no Government are bound by the one that went before.

I am trying to get the balance right by asking questions around procedure to assess whether some of these things should be in the legislation. I agree that there has to be a balance. That is why the Opposition chose to say 18 months, as opposed to four months; it was to have accountability and safeguards in place and to urge good delivery, but not to curtail the ICBs or clinicians—the people delivering stuff—and make them simply check boxes.

I appreciate the Minister’s offer to write to me. I would be grateful for that data, because where we find it will be important in future debates and in his future written or oral statements. I hope he understands that these probes are to make sure that we get the balance right between primary legislation, what is going in the code of practice and what is well intentioned, but could be left to blow in the wind.

[Stephen Kinnock]

That is a valid question, and one that has probably been asked in pretty much every Bill Committee that has ever taken place. It is always a challenge to get the balance right, having the right level of steer to the system in primary legislation without tying the hands of the system. Everything is constantly evolving, particularly in the age of technology in which we live, so it would be foolish to tie our hands too tightly given the changing nature of the landscape we are working in.

My answer to the question—I say this personally and from the point of view of the Government—is that we are satisfied that we have the balance more or less right. That is in the eye of the beholder, and not everybody will agree, but we feel that clause 4 gets that balance right, and sends clear signals to the system through primary legislation. The proof of the pudding will then be in the eating, and that is for the code of practice, the regulations and the programme planning. On that basis, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5

Grounds for detention

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[The Chair]

You wanted to know what adjourning now would mean for the progress of the Bill, and it would mean that we have to restart where we finished, so Thursday could be a longer day.

[Dr Evans]

Further to that point of order, Ms Furniss. To follow up on what the Government Whip, the hon. Member for Coventry North West, said, when a vote was called—although I appreciate that it was not carried on the voices—a number of members of the Committee who have since returned were not present.

Ms Furniss, could you speak to the Clerk to clarify at what point the Committee divided? There was a very clear point at which the Adjournment was moved. I appreciate it is your call whether the Question was carried on the voices, but you said that it seemed to have been carried, which implies that the Committee should now adjourn. I appreciate that there are some difficulties.

[Taiwo Owatemi]

Members have 15 minutes to get back when a Division is called in the House. The 15 minutes had not elapsed when the Adjournment was moved. How can the vote be allowed to stand when the rules say that members of the Committee have 15 minutes to get back?

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[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

It seems a lifetime ago since I was last on my feet. I am sure the Minister was waiting in anticipation for the crescendo of my speech. He heard my observations on amendments 52 and 53, and I know he will be mindful of ensuring that the balance between intervention and detention is held in equilibrium. I would be grateful if he addressed the points I raised before the interlude in his response.

New clause 24 would amend section 5(1) of the Mental Health Act 1983 to clarify that a formal application for detention can be made not only for a patient already admitted to hospital, but for individuals who have attended or been brought to a hospital seeking help or admission. It would therefore expand the legal basis for initiating detention procedures under the Act.

The new clause makes an important distinction. While the Act currently allows for the detention of an individual who is already an in-patient, there is ambiguity about whether that applies to individuals who are on hospital grounds—who have attended A&E, for example—but have not yet been formally admitted as a patient. In those cases, the Act fails to capture people who arrive voluntarily or are brought to such an institution during a crisis.

New clause 24 seeks to close that gap by explicitly allowing an application for detention to be made in such circumstances, ensuring that a timely intervention can occur when necessary for safety or treatment. A number of significant benefits would arise from the new clause. It would provide firm legal clarity; remove any ambiguity about when detention procedures can begin; allow timely intervention, enabling quicker responses for an individual in crisis who is already at hospital but has not been admitted; reduce the risk of harm by allowing earlier application of safeguards; and align the legal framework with the reality of hospital procedures. The distinction between those who are in attendance at a hospital and those who have been admitted in a state of crisis is a false one.

[Dr Evans]

Like me, my hon. Friend has served as a clinician on the frontline. As this point is sometimes lost, can he explain the practicalities of what turning up at a hospital versus actually being admitted means? They are two distinct things. Can he walk us through what the process entails?

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

My hon. Friend is right. An individual can attend an emergency department to be assessed and be seen by a doctor before a decision is made on whether that patient should be admitted to that hospital, transferred to a tertiary centre or discharged back into the community. New clause 24 seeks to provide clarity and certainty for practitioners on that grey area and, crucially, it seeks to provide a safeguard for patients who have yet to be formally admitted to an institution—a hospital, community placement or wherever—but need a crucial intervention.

I am not suggesting that new clause 24 would not have some challenges due to its operational impact. It might increase the pressure on hospital staff to initiate formal processes earlier than they do currently. Clear oversight, guidance and training would be needed to ensure its appropriate use. It would also require careful implementation, because any such intervention must never be used prematurely or misused to detain people unnecessarily. I would welcome the Minister’s views on the operability of this new clause, which would significantly improve the Bill by providing clarity that practitioners and patients alike would appreciate.

[Dr Evans]

Amendment 52 would amend clause 5 to introduce an important distinction in the grounds for detention under section 2 of the Mental Health Act, namely on whether a person has the mental capacity or competence to consent to admission. This amendment, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, raises questions that go to the heart of how we balance liberty and protection, autonomy and risk in our mental health system.

Under the current Mental Health Act, and indeed under the Bill as drafted, an individual can be detained for assessment if they are experiencing a mental disorder and if serious harm could be caused to themselves or others unless they are detained. There is no distinction based on whether they have the capacity to consent to care. In other words, a person who has full understanding and decision-making ability may still be detained against their will to protect them from themselves.

The amendment proposes a change to that approach, so that if someone lacks the capacity to make a decision about admission and treatment, the current protection should apply—they can be detained if they are at risk of harming themselves or others. But if someone has capacity, understands what is happening and what the risks are, and still refuses care, they should be detained only if they pose a risk to others and not just to themselves.

I will give a brief example to try to bring that to life. Imagine a young adult, aged 22 and living with long-standing depression. They have attempted suicide in the past, but they now clearly and repeatedly say that they do not want to be admitted. They understand the risks, are coherent, consistent and judged by clinicians to have capacity. Under the Bill as it stands, that person could still technically be detained, but under this amendment they could not unless they pose a risk to someone else.

Why does this amendment have merit? There is much in it that is compelling. It puts autonomy at the centre of the mental health framework, which the Committee discussed and agreed on earlier. It aligns more closely with the Mental Capacity Act 2005, which already allows people to make unwise decisions so long as they understand what they are doing. It also echoes the principles in the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, which calls for supported decision making over substitute decision making. It could reduce unnecessary or overly paternalistic detentions, especially of people from marginalised groups who are already disproportionally affected by coercive care.

[Gregory Stafford]

I am interested in the points that my hon. Friend is raising. Could he give any examples of the situations he is talking about? It would help the Committee, and certainly help me, to understand the practical realities of what he is talking about.

[Dr Evans]

I will try to elucidate a little further. We know that some people have fluid capacity, such as those with dementia or depression. How do we ensure that people have safeguards for themselves and the wider community, while respecting their capacity and allowing them to be masters of their own destiny? The Bill literally says that we want to see individual autonomy, and by definition, there is always a balance to be struck. The Bill shifts more to the paternalistic side, which brings some challenges because it could create gaps in protections, as I will explain.

There are clinical situations in which a person in mental health crisis—for example, in the early stages of a manic episode or a severe personality disorder crisis—may present with superficial capacity but be at grave risk of harm. Are we confident that clinicians can assess capacity accurately in real time, in often pressured and emergency contexts? Might we inadvertently tie the hands of practitioners trying to prevent suicide or serious self-injury? If capacity becomes the gateway to protection, what support and guidance will be provided to ensure that it applies fairly, consistently and safely?

That is important when we talk about detention, because detaining people is one thing; the next thing is how we get them out. To understand that, it is worth focusing on the crucial interaction between the Bill and liberty protection safeguards. It is worth my briefly explaining to the Committee what LPS are, how they evolved and why they matter. Liberty protection safeguards are the new legal framework that replaces the old deprivation of liberty safeguards, or DoLS. DoLS were designed to protect people who lack capacity, but had become widely criticised as complex, slow and limited mainly to hospitals and care homes.

In response, the Conservative Government introduced LPS through the Mental Capacity (Amendment) Act 2019, to simplify the process and extend protections to community settings such as supported living and people’s own homes. Given that we are talking about Darzi’s shift, that is important. With that context, I turn to the key concerns before us today: how the Bill interacts with LPS, especially when individuals move from hospital detention to community care.

To illustrate why this matters, let us consider the case of Mrs A. She is a 55-year-old woman with bipolar disorder and mild dementia. She was detained under the Mental Health Act after a severe manic episode put her at risk. While in hospital, the Act governed her detention and treatment. After several months, Mrs A stabilises enough to be discharged, but because of her dementia, she lacks the capacity to consent to her care arrangements in the community. She requires supported living, with 24/7 care, which means that she will continue to be deprived of her liberty, but now in the community. Because she is no longer detained under the Mental Health Act upon discharge, the liberty protection safeguards must authorise the deprivation of liberty in the community.

This requires careful consideration. An LPS assessment and best intention decisions are required, and formal authorisation must be in place before she leaves hospital. This transition point is critical, because without clear protocols, Mrs A could find herself deprived of liberty without lawful authorisation—a breach of her human rights. Information sharing between hospital staff, community providers and local authorities may be delayed or incomplete. There may be confusion among professionals about who is responsible for co-ordinating the handover. Training gaps might lead to the inconsistent application of safeguards.

The Bill reforms detention in hospitals, but there is some opacity regarding how the handover to LPS in the community will be managed. Will the Bill ensure a seamless transition, with no gaps in safeguards? If it does not, then how will this be provided? Will there be statutory duties to mandate information sharing and co-ordinate reassessments? How will professionals across health and social care be trained to navigate both systems effectively?

The Bill rightly aims to reduce inappropriate detentions and enhance patient autonomy in hospital, but protections under LPS in the community must be equally robust to maintain dignity and rights post discharge. How will the Government guarantee parity of safeguards across settings? The Bill also seeks to address disproportionate detention rates among ethnic minorities. We must be equally vigilant that the reforms and the wider LPS regime do not perpetuate inequalities once individuals leave hospital. We therefore need to ask the questions: what monitoring is done and what safeguards will be in place?

On detention, I gently ask the Minister to clarify the Government’s plan to manage the vital interface between the Mental Health Act and LPS, even as the Bill stands, to embed clear statutory duties, guidance and accountability to protect all individuals like Mrs A throughout her care journey.

What is the Government’s view on distinguishing between those with and without capacity in the context of detention for self-harm risk? Has the Department assessed the clinical and operational implications of requiring real-time capacity judgments before detaining someone at risk to themselves? Will the Government consider a limited override provision in extreme cases where the risk is immediate, catastrophic and the capacity assessment is finely balanced? We will see more of these kinds of cases as we go forward, with more and more people living with the likes of dementia or acquired brain injuries.

If the Government do not support the amendment as drafted, might they consider refining the code of practice to provide clear guidance on how capacity, autonomy and right to self are waived? The amendment presents a thoughtful and principled intervention. It is not perfect in my eyes, but it challenges us, rightly, to consider whether our mental health laws strike the right balance between protection and personal freedom.

Amendment 53, like its partner on section 2, reflects a growing consensus that the law should better respect the autonomy of people with mental health conditions, especially when they have the capacity to make informed decisions. In introducing a necessary distinction, if someone can truly understand the consequences of refusing treatment and they pose no risk to others, should the state override their decision on their own behalf? The amendment would add a capacity-based distinction into section 3, mirroring the earlier amendment on section 2. Specifically, if a patient lacks capacity to consent to a medical treatment, they may be detained if there is risk of serious harm to themselves or others. If a person has capacity, they may be detained only if there is risk to others. In short, if a person is mentally unwell but understands the consequences of refusing treatment in this case and only poses a risk to themselves, they would not be eligible for detention under this amendment.

Imagine a woman with anorexia nervosa who is dangerously underweight, has a good understanding of her condition and the risk, and refuses in-patient treatment. Under the Bill as it stands she can be detained, but under the amendment if she is judged to have capacity and only poses a risk to herself, she could not be detained under section 3. Therefore, there are huge and far-reaching consequences to the amendment. The wider science is moving towards capacity, but it needs to answer some of these questions. Some are even being grappled with now—take the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill. This truly cuts to the heart of humanity and I am sure there are varying views not only across the Committee, but across society. Similar questions will arise when it comes to capacity.

To that end, the question posed is not simple. In some cases, such as severe anorexia or chronic suicidal tendencies, capacity may be technically present but clinically contested. The stakes could not be higher. The amendment challenges us, and therefore the Government—and rightly so—to ask: are we doing enough to balance liberty and care? Do we have the right clinical tools, legal thresholds and ethical safeguards in place?

New clause 24 is on a different but related subject. This Back-Bench amendment relates to the application for admission in respect of patients who are already on hospital grounds but have not yet been formally admitted. This is really important, because it comes down to the ability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley said, when it comes to the mechanism this is the day-to-day reality. Someone, just because they turn up in A&E, is not under the care of A&E per se until they are admitted. That is when the clinicians will take control. If they just give their name, at what point do we have that grey area? That is the matter of contention in day-to-day working.

Currently, under section 5(1) of the Mental Health Act, applications for detention or admission can be made only in relation to patients who are already admitted to hospital—that is the key part. This leaves a grey area for people who come to hospital voluntarily, perhaps by walking into A&E and seeking help or being brought by an ambulance or the police, but have not yet been formally admitted. The amendment would explicitly allow applications for admission to be made as soon as someone attends or is brought into hospital to seek help, even before formal admission.

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[Gregory Stafford]

Just in case my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is not following this Bill in Hansard, I will pass on the hon. Lady’s compliments to him. Like her, I have great respect for him; I am not trying to denigrate his great work on the amendments and the new clause. All I am suggesting is that, from a layperson’s perspective, there are some elements that need tightening up, if not changing altogether. I take the hon. Lady’s point about pre-legislative scrutiny, but obviously these amendments and the new clause were not part of that because they have only just been tabled. I therefore think it is entirely appropriate to be debating them now.

[Dr Evans]

I have spoken to my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge and looked into this issue a bit further. Psychiatry is already looking towards future capacity and trying to bring the two pieces of legislation together. I believe that Scotland has already moved in that direction. We are therefore into the cycle of chasing legislation for something behind us. I appreciate the concerns, but that is why the Government need to be alive to these situations. At the end of the day, the nub of the issue is patients getting caught up between capacity and safety under the Mental Health Act. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Gregory Stafford]

I thank my hon. Friend for his extraordinarily helpful intervention. I was not aware of the changes, and I certainly had not heard of fusion before, or about what is going on in Scotland. Of course, if the new clause had already been enacted in another part of the United Kingdom in some form, I would be much more comfortable with it. But, as I said in relation amendments 52 and 53, if the new clause is to pass in its current form in this Bill or in some future form in another Bill, there has to be a focus on proper training and guidance. Because there is potentially such a legal quagmire, we must ensure that people understand the legal framework within which they can do this.

--- Later in debate ---

We have committed to continue to explore the issue. We will engage with stakeholders to understand how the current legal framework is applied and identify solutions to the problems raised. We will also provide further guidance on the existing legal framework, including the handover process from police to health, in the next revision of the code of practice.

[Dr Evans]

I am grateful to the Minister for how seriously he is taking this issue, and I agree that there is not necessarily a consensus even within the Opposition. Having the debate is therefore really important. It may be useful to collect data on the number of incidents and where these handovers are. Would the Government commit to that? We would be better able to have this debate, and to decide how much of a problem this is and to work out what the solutions are. Again, I struggle to find data that indicates where this is an issue, but I have spoken to clinicians who I know and colleagues who I have worked with when I have seen it. It happens enough that I was aware of it as a bog-standard GP who has worked in A&E, but it is clearly not rampant and we are not seeing it every single day. Would the Government commit to collecting data on it? If so, in what format would it come?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I ask the hon. Gentleman to clarify his question about data collection. Is he looking for clarity on the number of people who are judged to have mental capacity but who trigger the deprivation of liberty condition because they are seen to be either of severe risk of harm to themselves or to society?

[Dr Evans]

That would be a very useful piece of data, but I was in fact talking about new clause 24 and the grey area of hospital detentions. That data is probably easier to collect. I specifically ask the Minister to keep in mind the collection of data on those who turn up to A&E but end up having to be taken out of the hospital to be sectioned, for example. That is the nub of the issue and the practicality of what is going on. In a number of incidents, although the law is set in a way that is supposed to be helpful, the interface unfortunately becomes very difficult.

The Minister has rightly pointed out that there are different ways to deal with this. The new clause is one such potentially heavy-handed way of dealing with it. At the same time, it comes from the good place of trying to address what clinicians deal with in A&E day in, day out. However, we need some data and some teeth behind that to understand and appreciate how much of a problem it is and to then come up with a solution. I hope that clarifies my question.

[Stephen Kinnock]

That does clarify it. I will absolutely discuss that with officials. It is clear that we need a complete picture of the prevalence of people reporting to emergency departments and then having to be extracted from them and put into other facilities. That is an important point. We clearly need to think more about this issue and consult further. Obviously, understanding the data is a very important part of that. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a nailed-on commitment to do that, but I give him a nailed-on commitment to discuss it with officials. It is possible that the data is already out there. We need to find that out.

We have heard concerns that there is a lack of clarity about what legal powers are available to health professionals to hold someone in emergency departments until they can be assessed. However, it is a complex issue that requires extreme care and caution. We have committed to continue to explore the issue. We will engage with stakeholders to understand how the current legal framework is applied, and identify solutions to the problems raised. We will provide further guidance on the existing legal framework, including the handover process from police to health, in the next revision of the code of practice. We are also taking steps to address current operational pressures. NHS operational and planning guidance for this year tasks local health systems to improve patient flow through mental health crisis pathways and to reduce waits of more than 12 hours in emergency departments.

Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Luke Evans Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, not least because it gave me the opportunity to remember the constituency of the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley—please pass my apologies to him for forgetting that important point. He has been a tireless campaigner and I believe that we can find a way forward; this Bill is just not the correct vehicle for it.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

I also want to assess the amendment that could potentially have been tabled. The Opposition were struggling to see how it would fit in, and it looks as if there is a crossover with the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Can the Minister set out why he felt that it did not quite fit into this area and how it could be taken forward, so that with cross-party work outside this Committee we can see how we can make it happen?

[Stephen Kinnock]

There were a number of technical and drafting issues. The Public Bill Office ruled that the amendment, as drafted, was out of scope. One of the key concerns was about the unintended consequences of the relationship between physical disability and mental disorder. The drafting of the amendment could have caused confusion, because it could have started to bring physical disability into the scope of the Bill, which is clearly not what it is about. There were a number of technical and drafting issues, but I do not think that they are insurmountable. We can get to where we need to be, just not through a legislative vehicle.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, absolutely. We had a very constructive meeting with the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash, along with the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley, and we are certainly open to working with that team of people, who are clearly focused on getting the results that we all want to see.

Clause 1 will make it a statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to include, in the statement of principles in the Mental Health Act code of practice, the wording of the four principles identified by the independent review. Those principles are choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and the person as an individual. This will ensure that the review’s principles underpin the implementation of the Mental Health Act 1983 and are considered when making decisions related to care, support or the treatment provided to patients under the Act.

Embedding the principles in day-to-day practice will help to drive the culture change envisaged by the independent review. We are including the principles in the Act so that they govern the content of the code of practice and can changed only by Parliament. The Government are firmly supportive of the four principles, which were co-designed with service users during the independent review. They have informed every decision made in developing the Bill. We have embedded the principles in measures throughout the Bill, such as via the inclusion of therapeutic benefit in the detention criteria and several measures to improve patient choice and autonomy, including new treatment safeguards, introducing advance choice documents and the right to choose a nominated person.

I turn to clause 2. The code of practice for Wales already includes a statement of principles, although it is not a statutory requirement under section 118 of the Mental Health Act 1983 for Welsh Ministers to do so. Clause 2 will amend section 118 to extend subsection (2A) to Wales, along with the new subsection (2B) inserted by clause 1. To do so, clause 2 will also make amendments elsewhere in section 118 to clarify the application of each subsection, which will be to the Secretary of State in relation to England, to Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales, by virtue of the transfer of devolved functions, or to both.

The extent of the Mental Health Act is England and Wales, and there are separate codes of practice for England and Wales. Both codes of practice currently include a statement of principles, although the principles themselves vary slightly. Clause 2 will place a statutory requirement on Welsh Ministers to include the wording of the four principles identified by the independent review in the statement of principles when preparing the Mental Health Act code of practice for Wales.

As in clause 1, we are putting these principles explicitly in the Act so that they govern the content of the code of practice and so that they cannot be changed except by Parliament, or by the Senedd in respect of Wales. The Welsh code is already required to undergo scrutiny by Senedd Cymru, but clause 2 will also update the position in relation to the Senedd Cymru scrutiny procedure for the Welsh code. I commend clauses 1 and 2 to the Committee.

[Dr Evans]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I thank the Minister for his collaborative tone on some of the difficult amendments that we have discussed.

I will open where the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), left us on Second Reading. As he rightly emphasised, the importance of updating the Mental Health Act cannot be overstated. I fully share his view that it was right to take the necessary time to get this legislation right. The cross-party commitment to reform in this area, spanning both previous and current Governments, reflects a shared recognition of the urgent need to modernise our approach to mental health, particularly for those who are most vulnerable.

I welcome the Bill’s focus on enhancing patients’ voice and autonomy, including through the expansion of independent advocacy and the shift away from using police and prison cells as a place of safety. Those are positive and overdue steps. At the same time, as my right hon. Friend outlined, the Opposition’s role is to engage rigorously and constructively with the details of the Bill. Over the next few weeks, I look forward to working with colleagues on the Committee to ensure that, for example, the principle of patient choice is embedded not only in policy but in practice, such as through the use of advance choice documents.

We will continue to scrutinise the Bill in good faith, proposing improvements where needed, with the aim of delivering the strongest possible protections and outcomes for patients, their families and the community. How we begin a conversation often determines whether it becomes dialogue or dispute, so I hope that the Committee can take a constructive and productive look at what lies ahead of us.

I support clause 1, which will rightly update section 118(2B) of the Mental Health Act 1983 and embed a refreshed code of practice at the very heart of the mental health framework. This is not merely a procedural amendment; it is a statement of values, placing humanity, dignity and recovery at the centre of how we treat some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are profoundly affected by mental health legislation. It is vital that the framework guiding professionals be clear, principled and rooted in respect for individuals.

Why do we need these changes? For too long, the Mental Health Act has been criticised as outdated and insufficiently centred on patient autonomy and dignity. Concerns raised by successive independent reviews, clinicians and, crucially, by people with lived experience have pointed to inconsistencies in how decisions are made, which can often result in over-restriction, lack of patient involvement and insufficient therapeutic focus.

The independent review of the Mental Health Act, which was published in 2018, made a landmark contribution by recommending the adoption of the four core principles in front of us today: choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and recognition of the person as an individual. These principles are designed to shift the culture and practice towards one that respects autonomy while safeguarding wellbeing and public safety.

The historical context is that the Mental Health Act has undergone several amendments since its introduction—notably, in 2007, updates were made to some of the detention criteria and safeguards—but it was clear that the Act remained predominantly paternalistic. The 2018 independent review was a comprehensive, evidence-based re-examination of the entire Act, informed by extensive consultation, including with patients, families and clinicians. It concluded that embedding the principles formally into the law and code of practice was essential to modernise and humanise mental health law.

The four key principles—choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and the person as an individual to be treated with dignity—are not abstract ideals. They are the foundations of compassionate, lawful and effective care. They echo the spirit of the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities and signal a move away from paternalism and towards genuine co-production of care plans. Involvement ensures that decisions are not made about patients without them. The principle of choice and autonomy reminds us that the mental illness must not be a justification for blanket restrictions. The principle of least restriction challenges us to find community-based alternatives before defaulting to detention. Therapeutic benefit ensures that care is not custodial, but meaningful healing. These principles are what most of us would hope to see for our own family.

[Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. Does he agree that the Wessely independent review setting out these four principles gets right the balance that even though people may need to be detained, they should not lose their personhood and control, and that embedding these principles in this updated Bill will ensure that those rights are enshrined in law?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member is absolutely right. The key part is about trying to change not only the legislative framework, but the culture around clinicians and society as a whole. We saw that impact in 1983, we saw it in 2005 with the update on capacity, and we saw it in 2007. Now is the right time to look again at this, and it is well overdue.

I am glad that it has taken a while to ensure that the Bill has been thoroughly thought out. As we heard in the House of Lords debate, this is exactly the kind of framework that we need to make sure that society moves forward in a collaborative way that puts the patient at the centre, but also protects the wider community. Given some of the high-profile incidents that we have seen, we must also make sure that relatives, the community and the wider public at large are all protected.

As the Minister has rightly highlighted, the core principles must be the default for everyone. Clause 1 therefore represents an important step forward: by requiring the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers to include the four principles explicitly in the code of practice and by making it a legal duty for decision makers to have regard to them, the clause will strengthen the ethical foundation of mental health law. However, we must be honest about the challenges. The success of the principles depends on the culture, not just the codification. Training, supervision and leadership across clinical settings will be essential to bringing the values off the page and into practice.

These principles will also require resource backing. We cannot call for the least restrictive or most therapeutic interventions while community mental health services remain as they are. A plan for investment and a timeline for delivery will be imperative, or else we risk embedding principles we cannot fulfil. Members on both sides of the House understand that. I know that the Minister will have to think carefully about setting out a timetable, but it is key.

We must also guard against tokenism. We must guard against lofty principles being left unenforced and becoming rhetorical wallpaper. If we are to legislate for these values, we must look for accountability, with regular auditing, patient feedback mechanisms and a duty on the provider to report on how the principles are being upheld. Those are all areas that His Majesty’s Opposition will scrutinise.

To that end, I wish to raise several important questions for the Government and the Committee to consider. The first is about enforcement and accountability. How will the Government ensure that decision makers truly have regard to the principles in practice, and is there a robust mechanism for monitoring compliance and addressing breaches?

The second question is about balancing conflicts. In some cases, principles may conflict: for example, the imperative to respect patient autonomy may clash with the need to impose restrictions for safety. How does the code intend to guide practitioners to navigate these difficult trade-offs?

The third question is about care and interested parties. Although the clause highlights patient involvement, what explicit protections and roles will be afforded to carers and other interested parties, and how will their sometimes divergent perspectives be balanced?

The fourth question is about training and resources. Embedding the principles requires more than words on paper. What investments are planned to equip practitioners with the skills and understanding necessary to apply these principles sensitively and consistently?

The fifth question is about the timeline and consultation. The explanatory notes mention that the code must be consulted on and presented for scrutiny. What is the proposed timeline for that process, and how will people with lived experience continue to be involved?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the shadow Minister for his questions. I will answer to the best of my ability, but I may need to write to him on one or two points.

On enforcement and accountability, the code of practice is underpinned by the Bill and is therefore legally binding. Any divergence from the code of practice would need an extremely strong justification. That could well end up being a matter for the courts. I think that we will see a fairly strong line of sight from this primary legislation through to the code of practice and its implementation. Enforcement and accountability will be provided on that basis.

On balancing conflict, we will consult on the code of practice. Consultation will launch as soon as the Bill becomes an Act. That will be an important part of getting to the nub of some of these nuanced issues. It is quite difficult to put all that down in a document—a lot is about the culture, as the shadow Minister said—so we need an approach that has sufficient flexibility, but with clear outcomes and accountability. The consultation process will help us to get that.

[Dr Evans]

I agree with the Minister. Does the Department have a rough idea of the timetable for putting in place the code of practice? How long will the consultation need to take? When will it be implemented? How many rounds go with it? How wide is it to be—will it consult across England and Wales, or just in England?

[Stephen Kinnock]

We expect the entire process to take about a year from Royal Assent. My colleague Baroness Merron made a strong commitment from the Dispatch Box in the other place that we will present a written ministerial statement to the House every year. That will be the opportunity for us to report on the progress of all the measures that need to be implemented. A pressing task is to build the community capability required in this shift from hospital to community, which is very much part of the Bill and of our broader strategy for mental health and, indeed, health across the board. We need to report every year on that, but the first year will also be a report on the consultation and its conclusion, including the conclusion of a draft code of practice. We expect that to take approximately 12 months.

That, in some ways, has also answered the shadow Minister’s question about training and resources. A big part of the reason for the 10-year implementation period is the time that it will take to do the training and the training needs analysis, to identify trainers to deliver the training, and to get the system up to speed. That will be a fairly large chunk of the 10-year process.

[Dr Evans]

The Opposition appreciate the timescale taken to skill-up in this area, but the workforce plan is soon to be announced by the hon. Member’s Government. Has any consideration been made of what the capacity might look like, and of the crossover between having this legislation not quite in place—although likely to happen, upon Royal Assent—and its impact on updating the workforce plan on mental health?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The shadow Minister is tempting me to reveal the details of the workforce plan. While I have a huge amount of respect for this Committee, I do not think that it is where we will launch it. Absolutely, however, that is built into our thinking about the plan. There is a huge mental health challenge in our country, and those with acute and severe disorders and conditions which the Bill is designed to address are absolutely a part of that. A skilled and compassionate workforce is required, and I pay tribute to the amazing staff, mental health professionals and others who work in this area, often in incredibly challenging circumstances. We recognise and value that. The Bill does need to hook up with the workforce plan, and we are focused on that.

On Wales and the risk of divergence, the shadow Minister makes an interesting point. I guess it is about ensuring that that there is devolution, but not divergence, in the sense that we have a framework here—much of the legal framework is reserved—but the delivery of mental health services is devolved. That balance has to be right, but it is something that the two Governments have been working on since devolution started in 1998. There is a fairly mature and sophisticated culture in the interface between the two Governments. The shadow Minister is right to flag that point, and I am more than happy to seek some assurances from officials and write to him. However, as things stand, I do not see any particular risks.

[Dr Evans]

The Minister is right that there is shared working. However, part of the problem between devolved nations, such as Scotland and Wales, is that the datasets and definitions of data are often changed. Actually, the comparison of data across the UK can be quite hard to manage. Given that we are talking specifically about mental health, including some of the most at-risk people with the most severe mental health illnesses, will the Government commit to pushing for shared data that is comparable between Scotland and Wales, which we are legislating on in this case, to ensure that there is data transparency, so no one country can hide behind a different comparison or by saying, “We are looking at apples and pears”?

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is important that we do not see devolution as a wall between the two countries; in fact, we should be sharing information and best practice—nobody has a monopoly on good ideas. The Welsh Government have achieved some things, particularly in mental health, that England could learn from, and vice versa. There is no reason why the data cannot be shared from my own practicable and pragmatic point of view. There may be some issues with data protection, but data protection law really should be implemented in the same way right across the board because it is reserved.

[Dr Evans]

I entirely agree, and I hope that data is and will be shared. The question is about the definitions and standards, such as those used for waiting times. We often use the A&E waiting time of four hours. When it comes to the most vulnerable patients who will potentially be on waiting lists, or looking at specific data, if it is categorised differently in Wales, Scotland and England, that makes it very hard to see where best practice is so that it can be shared. That is the Opposition’s concern. I know that both sides of the House have shared that concern in my five years in Parliament. Is there a mechanism to address that issue either in the Bill or in the Minister’s wider portfolio?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I see. I am sorry; I had misunderstood the shadow Minister’s point. I thought it was about sharing data on particular patients, especially those who are crossing borders. The point about waiting lists is a more difficult issue. The Welsh Government have taken a view on how best to define them. For example, I know that ambulance waiting times have been quite controversial because there is a different definition in Wales to England. Many feel that the definition adopted by the Welsh Government sets the bar at a higher standard, which can then sometimes framed, in the hurly-burly of politics, as failing more than they would be if they had used a different metric, but they have chosen to use that metric.

In the context of devolution, it is up to the Welsh Government to decide how best to evaluate the Welsh health service and its performance. I take the shadow Minister’s point on having the best alignment that we can, but when it comes to this UK Government, we will determine how performance is evaluated for England, and the Welsh Government will determine how best to evaluate performance for Wales. I think that the Welsh media, the UK media, this Parliament and the Welsh Parliament will then decide who is failing and who is succeeding.

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[Dr Evans]

I rise to speak to amendment 56, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. The amendment proposes to grant the Secretary of State the power to update the definitions of “mental disorder”, “autism”, “learning disability” and “psychiatric disorder” by secondary legislation, subject to affirmative resolution by both Houses of Parliament. Currently, the Bill sets out fixed definitions of those terms in the primary legislation—the Mental Health Act, as amended. Those definitions can be changed only through further primary legislation. That means that any further change, reflecting new scientific knowledge or evolving clinical consensus, would require a full legislative process. Given that the Act was passed in 1983, and we are here more than 40 years later, I think that the problem is clear.

[Anna Dixon]

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise the work of the World Health Organisation in producing the international classification of diseases and ICD-11, which provides a scientific, evidence-based update, including on psychiatric disorders, autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders? Has he considered whether that is an appropriate reference point for the Bill?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member makes a good point. We have had ICD-10 and DSM-5, which aim to codify those disorders. Part of the problem is that someone with Korsakoff syndrome, which is brain damage from alcohol, or with Rett’s disease would potentially come under the scope of these definitions. That makes it very difficult. What about acquired brain injury? That is an emerging field—the House has looked at it and has put a strategy in place. However, there could be problems in the legislation going forward.

The amendment is asking, I think, how we scientifically proof the Bill so that we do not need to introduce further primary legislation. That is the question that the Government need to grapple with. As a doctor, I have seen the difficulties and practicalities of these definitions, and of trying to put people in a box. For example, where does Asperger’s fit on the autism scale? What does that look like on the spectrum of conditions? Are we trying to codify that? These are the real, pragmatic problems of putting definitions in place. That means it is all the more important to look at definitions, but, as the hon. Member for Shipley has rightly pointed out, the definitions have already moved on while we have been discussing the Bill. Introducing a mechanism that allows the House to update the legislation in keeping with advances in scientific knowledge is really important. The question is whether this is the right amendment to do that.

The amendment would allow the Secretary of State to make updates through regulations—secondary legislation—which would thereby enable a more flexible and responsive approach. Importantly, it requires that any such regulations must be laid before Parliament and approved by both Houses, which maintains parliamentary scrutiny and democratic oversight.

The potential benefits of this approach are clear. It offers the possibility of allowing the law to evolve and stay aligned with scientific evidence and clinical best practice without undue delay. That could prevent outdated or overly rigid definitions from adversely impacting vulnerable people, and better reflects the complexities of mental health conditions. It would allow the law to keep pace with advances in the scientific understanding of autism, learning disability and mental disorders, without the need for primary legislation. It could help ensure that the definitions remain clinically accurate and relevant, improving how the law is applied and reducing the risk of outdated criteria causing harm or confusion.

As the hon. Member for Shipley pointed out, that is part of the problem. As new criteria come up, there is a delay in the uptake of definitions. From my experience in clinical practice, keeping up to date with definitions can sometimes be a challenge. It is part of the personal development plan to make sure there is that understanding, but there is always a drip through as change in practice comes through, along with clinicians being comfortable and happy to use the new definitions. With any new medication, it is important to understand the side effects and the pros and cons of what it is trying to achieve, and to be able to explain that fully so that a patient can consent when taking that medication. The same applies when trying to explain a condition to patients. If there is a change and a new aspect to the way in which a definition is being applied, it is important that we have some flexibility.

The affirmative procedure preserves Parliament’s role, offering safeguards against unchecked ministerial power. However, there are some important considerations and potential drawbacks. Definitions of mental health conditions have profound legal and social implications. Delegating this power, even with parliamentary approval, risks politicisation or inconsistent application if regulations are used too frequently or without adequate consultation.

Secondary legislation typically receives less parliamentary debate and public scrutiny than primary legislation, even with the affirmative procedure, which may not suffice for such significant changes. There is also a risk that the changes could be made in a reactive or piecemeal way rather than with a coherent legislative framework, potentially leading to legal uncertainty or unintended consequences.

Given those points, I have several questions for the Minister. How do the Government propose to keep the legislation updated, given that we are only updating the Mental Health Act now, 40 years on? Do they have a mechanism in mind to ensure that any updates to the definitions are accompanied by robust clinical and expert consultation, while reacting to advances in medical understanding? Would the Government consider a formal review mechanism such as a mandated periodic independent review of the definitions? That could solve the problem of legislation becoming outdated, and put the safeguards in place. If there is a difference in the scientific community, we need to make sure that any changes are broadly in agreement with the direction of travel of scientific knowledge.

Furthermore, in considering the need for balanced, flexible and democratic accountability, the Government could introduce a sunset clause on any regulations, so that any changes would be revisited and renewed by primary legislation within a set period, unless Parliament agrees otherwise.

Crucially, to my knowledge, there are no standing statutory bodies or panels tasked with reviewing or advising the Government on the legal definitions of mental health conditions. There is an argument that without a dedicated expert body to guide the Secretary of State, we cannot be sure that any changes are robustly evidence-based and clinically sound. Currently, we have the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, the royal colleges, the Department of Health and Social Care and the intermittent mental health review bodies, but have the Government considered establishing a formal advisory mechanism to address problems in the future? The Opposition can see the argument both ways, but to govern is to choose, and it would be useful to understand the Minister’s thoughts on this area.

[Anna Dixon]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be overcomplicating the need for additional scrutiny. Will he acknowledge the work of the World Health Organisation to review the evidence on a global basis and update the definitions of psychiatric disorders?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member is correct about the way in which the world looks at this issue. The problem is that we are sat here debating definitions in legislation that is 40 years old. Will we be here in 40 years debating definitions that have moved on? The amendment suggests that, somehow, we need to try to ensure that legislation is flexible and updated enough, and has the scrutiny and safeguards in place. That relates to not just health, but any part of government that we tend to look at in the House.

I wanted to speak to the amendment to probe the Government on how they will safeguard the legislation. I do not have all the answers, but this is important. I do not want to see my successors—the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth from whatever party—sat here debating this issue in 40 years’ time because the definitions that we happen to set today have become outdated and have unintended consequences.

That is the balance that I am looking for. I do not see a body across the UK, given that this is UK legislation, that fulfils this role. It could be a transitory role or fully established. A psychiatrist could take it on, or it could come under NICE. With the abolition of NHS England, it could be a new role for the Department of Health to take on. All those are viable vehicles that could potentially look into the definitions. I want to ensure that what we pass in Parliament actually translates into the real world for clinicians, patients and the public.

The Opposition can see the argument both ways, as I mentioned. Perhaps it would be useful to have an expert panel, with representatives of clinicians, legal experts and service users to support regulatory updates. I put those questions to the Minister and I look forward to his answers.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley for moving the amendment on behalf of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, and to the shadow Minister for speaking to it.

As this regulation-making power would amend primary legislation, it would signify a Henry VIII power that the Government consider to be unjustified. We have significant concern that it could change the way in which the Bill applies to people with certain conditions without appropriate consultation or parliamentary scrutiny. The serious matter of detention for compulsory treatment should be considered in primary legislation.

The hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley spoke about the need to stay in touch with our evolving understanding of these terms and conditions. My view is that the Bill does that. We have modified the meaning of mental disorder by including new definitions of autism, learning disability and psychiatric disorder. That acknowledges the advancement in our understanding of learning disabilities and autism, and how the Bill should apply in respect of those conditions. Any future change to the definitions should be a matter for Parliament, informed by strong evidence and consultation with the public.

For those reasons, I ask the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley to withdraw the amendment.

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[Dr Evans]

It is a pleasure to speak to clause 3, which brings forward the vital and long overdue changes to the way our laws treat autism and learning disabilities under the Mental Health Act. The clause responds to a persistent injustice: the inappropriate detention of autistic people and people with learning disabilities in mental health hospitals, often for years at a time, without meaningful therapeutic benefit. Those individuals are not mentally ill, yet they have too often been detained, medicated and restrained as if they were.

As the law stands, individuals with learning disabilities and autistic people can be detained both for assessment, under section 2 of the Act, and for treatment, under section 3. Notably, people with learning disabilities may be detained under section 3 when their condition

“is associated with abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct”,

whereas that does not currently apply to autistic people. Evidence and reports show that some such detentions can be lengthy and may not always provide therapeutic benefit. That raises concerns about the appropriateness of detention on the basis of disability alone. In my time on the Health and Social Care Committee, we looked specifically at this topic and produced a report, some of which has influenced the Bill.

The clause aims to directly address the issue of lengthy detentions for such individuals. For the first time, the law will clearly define autism and learning disability—something that has not happened for 40 years. As science has moved on, legislation must follow. Autism will now be recognised as a “lifelong developmental condition” that affects perception, communication and interaction, and learning disability will be defined as “significant impairment” of intellectual functioning.

Supported by schedule 1, the clause seeks to clarify and refine that position by introducing formal definitions of “autism”, “learning disability” and “psychiatric disorder”. Crucially, it removes autism and learning disability as stand-alone grounds for compulsory treatment and detention under section 3. Instead, detention for treatment will be permitted only if a person has a co-occurring psychiatric disorder—that is, a mental disorder other than autism or learning disability. Additionally, the change applies to community treatment orders, meaning that they cannot be applied solely on the basis of autism or a learning disability. However, the Act makes it clear that the changes do not apply to people detained under part 3 of the Act who are within the criminal justice system. For that group, autism and learning disabilities with serious behavioural consequences remain grounds for detention and treatment disorders.

The Bill introduces the new term, “psychiatric disorder”, meaning any mental disorder excluding autism or a learning disability. That distinction matters because detention under section 3 of the Act—compulsory admission for treatment—will no longer be permitted solely on the basis of someone being autistic or having a learning disability. From now on, a person may be detained only if they have a co-occurring psychiatric disorder or their learning disability is associated with “serious behavioural consequences”, such as

“abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct”.

That reflects a fundamental shift in the philosophy of the Act from using hospitalisation as a containment tool to ensuring that any detention has a clear clinical and therapeutic purpose.

This reform is rooted in the recommendations of the 2018 review of the Mental Health Act, which was led by Professor Simon Wessely, and has been championed by groups such as the National Autistic Society. It represents a more modern understanding, as we currently see things, so there are many positives—it protects people’s rights, preventing detention simply for being different, it promotes community-based care rather than institutionalisation, it modernises the law in line with current clinical understanding and it seeks to end the harm caused by prolonged non-therapeutic hospital stays, which often involving over-medication and restraint.

However, I also sound a note of caution: the clause alone will not be enough. There is rightly concern about the provision for robust community services. We risk creating legal protections that are admirable on paper but ineffective in practice. I know that the Minister appreciates this dilemma. If people cannot get the right support in the community, they will still end up in crisis, and possibly still be detained—just under a different part of the law.

There are also concerns about ambiguity. The phrase “serious behavioural consequences” may be open to a wide interpretation. Without clear guidance and training, we risk inconsistencies and even potential loopholes that could undermine the intent of this reform. I commend the Government’s intention to protect autistic people and people with learning disabilities from potentially inappropriate detentions, and to ensure that compulsory treatment is targeted to those with mental disorders warranting hospital care.

The emphasis on therapeutic benefit and the principle of least restriction aligns well with the human rights standard and the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities. However, I have several questions that I hope the Government will be able to address. How will clinicians reliably distinguish between behaviours arising from autism and learning disabilities and behaviours arising from co-occurring psychiatric disorders, given the complexity of presentations in this population? Is there, or will there be, clear guidance and training to support those assessments? For individuals with severe autism or learning disabilities who display challenging behaviours but do not have a diagnoseable psychiatric disorder, what alternative pathways and supports are envisaged to ensure their safety and wellbeing without resorting to detention?

On the issue of patients under part 3 of the Bill, I know the Government’s rationale for maintaining broader detention definition criteria, but will there be additional safeguards or oversight to ensure those patients are not subject to unnecessarily prolonged or restrictive detention? The removal of “social functioning” from the definition of learning disability is intended to create a clearer distinction from autism, but could the changes create any unintended legal or clinical ambiguities in practice?

The changes could introduce some unintended consequences. Previously, impairments in social function were considered part of the learning disability definition, which helped capture individuals whose social difficulties accompanied intellectual impairments. Without that, there may be legal and clinical uncertainty for people with borderline or overlapping conditions. For example, someone with moderate intellectual impairment and significant social difficulties might no longer clearly fit the learning disability definition. Similarly, autistic individuals with mild intellectual disability who experience social challenges could find their diagnosis and legal status less certain. Those ambiguities risk inconsistent assessments and potential gaps in access to appropriate care unless the Government provide clear guidance to clinicians and tribunals on how to navigate complex presentations. What plans are in place to monitor and evaluate the impact of the changes on detention rates, patient outcomes and the availability of community-based alternatives?

In closing, this is an important clause that moves us closer to a system that respects autonomy, delivers appropriate care and upholds the rights of neurodivergent people. But we must be mindful that passing this legislation must not be seen as the end of the job. As the Minister understands, it is the beginning. If we are to drive reform, the Government will need to set out the funding and workforce pathway for the services that will deliver it. We must train professionals, empower families and support voices of lived experience at every level. Only then will clause 3 deliver on its promise not just to change law, but to change lives.

I turn to schedule 1. Schedules are an important and yet often overlooked part of the legislative process. It is worth reminding the Committee that a schedule is a part of a Bill’s function, like a detailed appendix. It contains the granular, often technical amendments that give practical and legal effect to the broad principles set out in main clauses. In other words, the clause tells us what Parliament intends to do and schedules show us how it will be done: amending existing statutes, updating definitions and ensuring consistency across legal frameworks.

In this Bill, schedule 1 is particularly consequential. It does the heavy lifting of applying the reforms in clause 3 to the existing Mental Health Act 1983, especially with regard to how we treat autism and learning disabilities within the scope of mental health law. Let us be clear that the schedule is not simply technical. It is transformational in what it attempts to do. Where the 1983 Act spoke broadly of mental disorder, schedule 1 now creates a more precise legal category—“relevant disorder”—defined to include psychiatric disorder, autism and learning disability with serious behavioural consequences. That matters enormously. In fact, it is one of the key reasons for the review of this entire piece of legislation. Individuals with autism or learning disabilities have been subject to compulsory powers, including detention, as we have heard, in the absence of any co-occurring mental illness. That is a practice with which the Committee should rightly be uncomfortable.

Schedule 1 amends not only the criteria for compulsory admission under section 3, but those for guardianship, community treatment orders, tribunal discharge and even the treatment provisions in part 4 of the Act. This breadth shows that clause 3 is not merely a rhetorical shift; it is being operationalised throughout the entire Act. With such significant implications, the schedule raises serious and legitimate questions that I am sure will form the backbone of the ongoing discussions in Committee over the next few weeks.

First, what is the threshold for serious behavioural consequences? Will that be clearly defined? Without precision, we risk substituting one vague standard for another. Secondly, do the transitory provisions offer enough clarity for frontline practitioners, in particular approved mental health professionals and tribunal panels who will be making decisions in grey areas between new and old law? Again, what about the cross-border issue between Wales and England? Thirdly, given the change from mental disorder to psychiatric disorders in some sections but not others, what is the Government’s rationale for that linguistic differentiation? Is there a risk of confusion among legal and clinical practitioners? To clarify—I am happy to share this with the Minister—I went through it and there appear to be a few occasions where the definition was changed, but some areas where it was not. Now, that may be my naïve understanding as a mere shadow Minister, but I would welcome the clarification and I am happy to pass them on to the Clerks to ensure that, if we are going to update the Bill, all parts are updated. Finally, and critically, do we have the workforce, training and services in place to support this cultural and clinical shift away from paternalism towards community-based and rights-respecting alternatives?

Schedule 1 shows us that reform is not just about good intentions, but getting the detail right. It is about ensuring the law reflects modern clinical understanding and human dignity. I support the direction of travel, but I gently remind the Minister to ensure that the operational mechanisms of the schedule are tested, clarified and, where necessary, strengthened. We owe that to the individuals and the families for whom we are producing this legislation to improve their lives.

[Anna Dixon]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Vickers. I will make a few brief remarks on clause 3. For many of us, the detention and long-term institutionalisation of people with autism and learning disabilities is a shameful part of the NHS’s history. The Bill, and particularly this clause, will finally make it very clear that that is no longer acceptable. It is a further shame that, despite the Winterbourne View report in 2012, so little progress has actually been made on providing for people to be cared for in the community and closer to home.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

The devolution Bill and the process of reorganising and restructuring are based on two really strong principles: that it is up to us through legislation to create the outcomes that we need to see delivered across the country and that there are clear standards and targets that we need to see met. But the implementation work needs to be done to deliver those desired outcomes and targets. Local authorities are empowered to do that, which is why we are seeing, for example, a lot of breaking down of ringfencing. The Government are keen to massively reduce the amount of ringfencing, because that has become a straitjacket for local authorities, integrated care boards and others in how they can best manage their portfolio of activities and deliver that devolved power and responsibility.

The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we want to devolve. We are absolutely committed to decentralising and we believe that is an important part of modern governance. Of course, that has to be done within a framework of set targets and the development of community services that the Bill commits to. All of that will come together to enable those at the coalface, who are best placed to understand them, how to deliver those services to their communities.

[Dr Evans]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I just need to turn to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley. On strong duties, the code of practice flows from the primary legislation and therefore has a statutory power. There is no stronger power to ensure that people with learning disabilities and autism get the treatment, service and support that they require. The system will have a statutory duty to ensure that that happens within the framework of the legislation.

My hon. Friend is right that the transition from children’s to adult services is a major challenge. I am engaging with colleagues in the Department for Education about that to ensure that conversations about the transition happen upstream. We do not want a situation where an individual is looked after until they are 18 and then handed over without any prior conversations and engagement. We want the handover from one service to the other to be as seamless as possible. Our commitment to dynamic support registers will help in this context. They will be an important tool for understanding the needs of individuals who are at risk of admission and for getting that information into the system across the board prior to any detention.

My hon. Friend also asked about carers who so often pick up the baton in the gaps in community provision. She is absolutely right to flag that. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the millions of unpaid carers across our country, many of them dealing with extremely challenging family situations. The system would simply collapse without them, so she is right to pay tribute to those people.

[Dr Evans]

I want to expand a little on the practicalities and respond to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon about local authorities. I declare an interest because Leicestershire is one of the 21 county councils going through a devolution process. About 85% of its budget deals with special educational needs and social care. It is part of an ICB where the mental health team and primary and secondary care come together, but there is oversight from NHS England.

With so many moving parts, including the legislation we are putting in place, the budgetary constraints for ICBs, and the fact that we are getting rid of NHS England, there is a real worry among Opposition Members that things could drop through the gap, or more likely, that because we are moving all these things at the same time, we do not decide which is the fixed point that leads where others follow. If we are trying to cut costs in the ICBs, if NHS England is going over the next two years, and if devolution of responsibilities is also happening over the next couple of years with unitary councils forming, we will create a sticky situation for who is actually leading on this issue. At the heart of it are the clinicians and the patients who could fall through the gap.

What consideration has been given to the top-down strategy for how to incorporate all that? The Minister has talked about a red thread that runs through it all, but is there a running plan? Different Departments, agencies and areas of the country are involved. They are trying to come together to manage their budgets, legislation and policies. It is a complex situation to work through. The imperative part—the legislation—is almost the easier part to get in place; it is the delivery that is all-important. Can the Minister explain further how those three things tessellate?

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[Zöe Franklin]

No, I will move on to amendment 7, which I also want to cover. This amendment is very important, as it would ensure that the integrated care boards and local authorities responsible for a patient’s treatment and care would have a duty to implement the recommendations arising from a care and treatment review. The legislation states “must have regard to”, but we believe that that is too weak and could see crucial parts of care and treatment reviews left unimplemented.

As it stands, this part of the Bill could be considered to be implemented even if no adequate resourcing was required, with the care and treatment review left as an empty exercise. One of the key parts of this legislation is to ensure that resources are there to implement treatment for patients. Will the Minister reassure us that adequate resources will be provided to ensure that patients’ treatment needs are met, that training for clinicians and others supporting an individual is made available through resourcing, and that we do not again find ourselves in a situation like the current one, in which patients too often struggle because there are not the resources to meet their care needs?

[Dr Evans]

I rise to speak to Liberal Democrat amendments 1 to 7 and 51 to clause 4. I welcome the intention behind the amendments, which aim to enhance the care and treatment review process for people with autism and learning disabilities, particularly by addressing housing and accommodation needs and ensuring that key advocates receive reports.

There are positive elements of the amendments that are worth highlighting. I understand the good intent of including housing and accommodation considerations explicitly in reviews, as it recognises that a person’s living situation is often central to their wellbeing and recovery. Additionally, ensuring that nominated persons and independent mental health advocates receive reports promptly promotes transparency and patient advocacy. Shortening the review intervals from 12 to six months could lead to more responsive care planning.

However, I have some significant reservations about the statutory implications of blurring housing, for example, so directly with the care and treatment review process. Housing is traditionally managed under separate statutory frameworks from health and social care, so to embed housing as a statutory element within these reviews risks creating confusion about which agency holds responsibility and may expose health bodies or commissioners to legal obligations that they are neither funded nor structured for.

I have a few questions for the Liberal Democrats. In their eyes, how would the Government ensure clarity over the statutory duties applied to housing recommendations arising from the reviews? Would that not risk delaying or complicating discharges if housing issues became a statutory sticking point within health-led care reviews? Moreover, housing provision often depends on local authorities and housing departments that have their own complex eligibility criteria and resourcing constraints. Are we confident that ICBs and responsible commissioners would be able to co-ordinate effectively across these boundaries, especially given the patchwork of funding and powers in play?

[Gregory Stafford]

To take that point slightly further, given that pretty much every local authority has a different set of criteria by which to determine people’s housing needs, how would, for example, an ICB that potentially crosses multiple local authorities with differing housing needs be able to understand the complexities within the current structure, and ensure that the patient is served best?

[Dr Evans]

Those are exactly the kind of practical questions that we really need to think about when we definitively put into legislation what that would look like. My constituency now has several boundaries across the borders with Warwickshire and Staffordshire, which causes problems when it comes to deciding who will look after what. On the criteria, my hon. Friend raises another point: will there be a regulatory fight or even infighting between the ICB and the local authorities to determine whose criteria cover what, and who trumps who? To top that off—I raised this matter with the Minister earlier—I would be interested to understand how the Liberal Democrats would deal with that problem, given that the Government are pushing through their devolution agenda. We have already heard about the complexity of everything tessellating together. That makes it very interesting, to put it politely, to consider how it would work in practice.

On the related point of the duty imposed on ICBs and local authorities to have regard to review recommendations, I note that amendment 7 would insert the phrase

“have a duty to carry out”.

I have concerns in this area too, which I will raise in later comments, but let me explain a little further. The aim is to address accountability, but the Liberal Democrats’ solution would change the provision from “must have regard to” to “have a duty to carry out”. There is an important distinction here: a duty to “have regard to” requires that recommendations may be properly considered and responded to but does not legally compel implementation; a duty to carry out, however, would impose a legal obligation to act on every recommendation, regardless of feasibility, availability or agreement.

That raises a crucial question: if the Government intend to hold ICBs to account for meeting those needs, how would they ensure that the necessary resources, powers and accountabilities for the mechanisms are in place? What oversight would the Liberal Democrats establish to guarantee not just consideration but effective delivery, and how would conflicts be resolved where recommendations are impractical, or local capacity is lacking?

Perhaps a more balanced approach would be to strengthen the duty to respond with clear timelines and a requirement for transparency about decisions, while investing in cross-sector co-ordination mechanisms and adequately resourcing local authorities and housing providers. We could provide statutory guidance to clarify roles and responsibilities, and enhanced oversight to monitor outcomes, rather than simply prescribing an inflexible duty to implement.

In essence, a duty to respond means that the responsible body, whether an integrated care body or the local authority, must formally consider and reply to the recommendations arising from the care and treatment review. It does not legally compel it to carry out every single recommendation, but it requires the body to explain what it will and will not implement, and why it cannot implement a recommendation. That promotes transparency and accountability without creating unrealistic legal obligations. For example, an ICB might say, “We will implement recommendations 1, 3 and 5 within six months, but recommendation 2 is not feasible due to current resource constraint.” That kind of structured response is both practical and responsible.

[Gregory Stafford]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. As I have indicated, I have a lot of sympathy with the amendments, but some practical constraints need to be teased out.

Amendment 1 seeks to ensure that housing needs are explicitly considered during a care, education and treatment review meeting. I can see the pros of that. Clearly, a holistic approach recognises that stable housing is fundamental to mental health and recovery, especially for vulnerable individuals. Addressing housing barriers may reduce unnecessary hospital admissions. Likewise, it could lead to improved discharge planning, ensuring that patients are not delayed in hospital due to a lack of suitable accommodation. All Governments, of every colour and political party, want to see collaboration between health, social care and housing services, and the amendment brings those things together.

As I said in an intervention, however, local authorities and NHS bodies such as ICBs may face challenges to co-ordinating housing assessments within the CETRs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth mentioned, his constituency crosses a number of local authority boundaries, while my seat of Farnham and Bordon, with two thirds of it in Surrey and one third in Hampshire, has that same issue. The county councils are wonderful and Conservative run, but Waverley is run by Liberal Democrats.

The hon. Member for Winchester, who moved the amendment, recognised the issue of implementation capacity, but there are also likely to be resource constraints. These days, local authorities spend most of their money on social care, education and the bits of health that sit within their remit, so there may be insufficient housing stock or funding to meet the identified needs that the amendment would bring forward. There are therefore practical implications.

[Dr Evans]

Thinking that through, how does my hon. Friend feel that existing statutory requirements to provide accommodation will balance out if we provide another statutory requirement on accommodation in these plans? Does he worry, as I do, about creating a risk, for example, of pitting someone with severe learning disabilities against a homeless person if there is resource rationing thanks to the practicalities of how many houses we have? Members throughout the House agree that we need to build more houses, but until that happens, such local authorities have the resources issue.

[Gregory Stafford]

I agree. Even if the Government build the number of houses that they propose—I have some scepticism—there will always be the potential conflict or disagreement on prioritisation in the housing register and list. As my hon. Friend says, that might well lead to local authorities having to change their criteria, which are not necessarily consistent across local authorities, and, as in his example, potentially pitting a homeless person against someone with mental health needs.

The amendment would also have the potential for scope creep. I have a lot of sympathy with what it is trying to achieve, but expanding CETRs to include housing might dilute their focus and overburden the process. I am interested to hear from the mover and supporters of the amendment how they would ensure that the CETR continues to have that core focus on the health and wellbeing of the individual, rather than potentially be bogged down in the mire of housing issues.

Moving on, amendment 51 would ensure that the care and treatment of individuals with autism or learning disabilities explicitly considered the impact of accommodation and relocation in the planning and decision-making process. Again, I have a lot of sympathy with that. It would promote holistic care planning, reduce trauma and disruption, support continuity of care and, I think, align with the person-centred principles throughout the Bill, which all of us support. Again, however, amendment 51 might complicate discharge planning, if suitable accommodation were limited.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend is entirely correct. We operate in a resource-confined area. It does not matter what the resource envelope is; it will always be confined. If we use resource to service the very laudable aims of the amendment, it will take resource and money away from another area.

[Dr Evans]

Would my hon. Friend speculate on a question that I hope will be answered by the hon. Member for Winchester? It is about the evidence base behind choosing six months instead of 12. GPs would do learning disability reviews every year, for example, and it is an annual thing with asthma and in similar areas. Is the hon. Member for Winchester aware of an evidence base for why it should be six months? There may not be one—often these can be arbitrary, in terms of just giving a clinical judgment—but I wonder whether there is a specific reason for choosing to reduce the period between reviews to six months.

[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend attributes to me a level of clairvoyance that I do not possess, but I am sure that the hon. Member for Winchester or the hon. Member for Guildford will pick up that point.

The resource implications are not just about the funding. They are about increased workload and the pressure put on the professions and services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley said, the amendment would divert attention away from delivering care, if it is not balanced properly. My hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth is right to ask, “Why six months?” Why not nine months, eight months or any other period? Is there a clinical basis for six months?

Dementia Care

Luke Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

I think we have established that dementia is a thief, not once but twice: first of the mind, then of the memories, leaving the greatest pain not with the sufferer but with those who remember. I thank the hon. Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) for securing such an important debate and for speaking so passionately and openly about her story, as did many across this House. I also thank the Alzheimer’s Society, Alzheimer’s Research UK, Dementia UK and all those people who advocate for dementia and their families. As we have heard, there are 1 million people living with dementia in the UK, and that figure is projected to rise to 1.4 million by 2040. One in six hospital beds are occupied by dementia patients, and dementia sufferers are three times more likely to see their GP. Modelling suggests that 70% of care home residents are people living with dementia.

In this House I often enjoyed the tired lines from the then Opposition about how the Conservatives never did enough on x or y or z. As Labour Members are ably demonstrating, it is easy to stand across the aisle and say that nothing is ever enough, but as they are learning, delivering in the real world is far harder than demanding from the sidelines. On dementia, the Conservative Government led from the front with more funding, better diagnosis and a national commitment to change lives. We all agree that we must continue to do more, but to do that we need direction and action, and that is what we are exploring here today, almost one year on from the introduction of a Labour Government.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Can the shadow Minister remind us about the commitment in the 2019 Conservative manifesto on the dementia moonshot and tell us if and when that was delivered?

[Dr Evans]

If the hon. Lady will bear with me, I am going to canter through what we have done in the past 14 years, because it was, after all, under the premiership of Lord Cameron that the challenge on dementia set the ambition for England to be

“the best country in the world for dementia care and support and for people with dementia, their carers and families to live”.

So, on to the point. In 2012, the then Prime Minister set the challenge to make us a global leader and increase awareness and research. This included the dementia friends initiative—a public campaign to boost understanding, over 1 million dementia friends trained by 2015 and increased research funding, which doubled from 2010 to 2015. In 2015, the Prime Minister’s challenge on dementia 2020 set national goals for diagnosis rates, care quality and research impact, including a national target for dementia diagnosis rates of 66.7%, which was met in 2015.

In 2016 and 2017, the UK Dementia Research Institute, launched under Theresa May, was a flagship initiative backed by £290 million from the Government and charities. This actually delivered £300 million in dementia research and innovation by March 2020, a full year ahead of schedule. We had the NHS long-term plan in 2019, which committed to enhancing diagnosis. In 2019 we also had the dementia moonshot pledge from Boris Johnson, with an extra £160 million. This was followed up in 2022 with the Dame Barbara Windsor dementia mission—a £95 million fund to accelerate research into treatment and early diagnosis. Of course, the pandemic hit and we had the recovery, and that is why the Government set out the 2023 major conditions strategy, which would have included dementia.

There is therefore a question for this Government as to the priority they have given to dementia since taking office, and it is worth looking at why concerns are being raised. This Government, rightly so in their own right, did not opt to proceed with the major conditions strategy. That might surprise some Members, as we heard the current Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), who is in her place, call for a dedicated dementia strategy a number of times when she was in opposition. Only last year, she said the following in a Westminster Hall debate on new dementia treatments:

“As my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth said, it is disappointing that the Government shelved the plans for a dedicated dementia strategy. England remains the only nation without a specific dementia plan. That is very short-term thinking, and it would be interesting to hear from the Minister about that. In 2022, I said:

‘We cannot give confidence to people suffering with dementia and their carers without a much clearer plan that is in place very quickly.’—[Official Report, 14 June 2022; Vol. 716, c. 141.]

That remains the case today.” —[Official Report, 11 January 2024; Vol. 743, c. 192WH.]

So I would like to ask the Minister: does he stand by these comments and can we therefore expect a dedicated dementia strategy? It is easy for the Conservative side of the House to understand that governing is difficult. Good intentions make fine Opposition speeches until they collide with reality. Does the Minister plan to carry on with a dedicated strategy, and would he be kind enough to confirm that today?

On the topic of strategies and comments made by Labour Ministers before they took office, I note that in a Westminster Hall debate on inequalities in dementia services only in May last year, less than a week before the general election was called, the shadow Health Minister and now the independent hon. Member for Gorton and Denton (Andrew Gwynne) promised a carers strategy. He said that carers are

“a vital part of the fight against dementia, and they will be at the heart of Labour’s plans in Government. There will be a carers strategy under the next Labour Government, because we value the vital work our carers do. It will be a cross-Government strategy with the Department for Work and Pensions, Department for Education and the future of work review all feeding into it along with the Department of Health and Social Care. There is a brighter future for those living with dementia and their families and carers. Labour will deliver it.”—[Official Report, 16 May 2024; Vol. 750, c. 228WH.]

That is a laudable aim.

However, since the election, it appears that all is not quite as it seems. In an oral question in the other place in November, Baroness Merron made it clear that she had

“not committed to a national carers strategy”,

stating,

“I do have to say to the noble Baroness that I have not committed to a national carers strategy. However, in our joined-up approach, we will certainly be looking at what is needed. That will be very much part of our considerations on the workforce strategy, which Minister Karin Smyth will be leading on. It is crucial to the delivery of services.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 19 November 2024; Vol. 841, c. 107.]

I therefore ask the Minister today whether specific plans are still in place for a national care strategy.

[Joe Robertson]

As my hon. Friend knows, at the beginning of the year, the Government and NHS England removed dementia from their planning guidance, which sets their priorities for the year ahead. Crucially, they removed the diagnosis targets. That was a cruel blow to people living with dementia and their families. Will the Minister give his view on the Government removing dementia from their targets and priorities?

[Dr Evans]

I am grateful, first, for my hon. Friend promoting me and, secondly, for his expertise in this area because I understand that he has worked with Dementia UK. He is absolutely right—he has beaten me to the chase. One of the real concerns that charities and patients have raised is exactly that: the removal of this crucial diagnosis target. We only need to look at Wales where that was not the case. The national diagnosis rate is 56%—10% lower than in England.

On top of that, the Government are presiding over a major top-down restructuring with cuts to integrated care boards and NHS England, while forcing through devolution on the 21 county-run authorities responsible for social care, while raising taxes in the employment national insurance contribution on care providers, which will get passed on to local councils, while raising taxes on the very dementia charities and others that provide support, while ditching the fast-track social work scheme as we learned last week, while terminating the NHS and care volunteers response that helps support care, and while scrapping the cross-party talks on social care and instead swapping it to an independent commission led by Baroness Casey, who still seconded to the Home Office. We can all see what is being taken away and taxed. It is what is going to benefit dementia support and care that is much harder to spot.

In the rough and tumble of this place, it is not lost on me how much this issue touches the Minister himself. He has spoken bravely and openly about his family’s struggle, and I have the utmost respect for him and what he has been through, and I have been through similar with my grandmother Dot. I do not question his heart; I simply gently challenge the Government on their policies to achieve better dementia care for all.

To that end, I have a couple of questions. Will the Government commit to setting a new target to increase dementia diagnosis rates across England? With integrated care systems facing restructuring and budget resolutions, how does the Government plan to hold local systems to account on dementia diagnosis, especially across the NHS and social care? We have seen in Wales how irregular data collection on dementia diagnosis affects overall diagnosis rates. What steps will the Government take to improve the quality of data in dementia diagnosis, particularly when it comes to follow up? Given the growing prevalence of dementia in our care homes, what steps will the Government take to support providers and ensure that the social care workforce is trained effectively to meet the needs of care users?

With the upcoming spending review and the long-awaited 10-year plan for the NHS expected in the next couple of months, I trust the Minister sitting in front of me. He is the right person to highlight to the Government the seriousness and importance of tackling dementia, just like the last Government understood.

I return to where I started: dementia steals the most from those left remembering, because the greatest heartbreak is losing someone who is still here. But with compassion for families, dignity for those who suffer and the relentless pursuit of a cure, we can offer not just care, but hope.

Draft Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Hub and Spoke Dispensing etc.) Regulations 2025

Luke Evans Excerpts

Monday 2nd June 2025 General Committees

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stuart.

I will not go through everything the Minister set out, but we are amending the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 and the Medicines Act 1968 to enable hub and spoke dispensing.

The regulations before the Committee will improve seven key areas. They will enable cross-business outsourcing; clarify the legal definitions of wholesale dealing and retail sale; extend outsourcing to NHS GPs; establish hub and spoke frameworks, legally defining what the hub and spoke model is and enabling hubs to assemble medicines; tighten up labelling and information rules; introduce data-sharing provisions; and clarify premises-based supply.

The pros of doing that, and the reason why the previous Government were introducing legislation to do so, is that it will provide efficiency gains, improve access, modernise the legislation, and improve patient safety and data protection. There are some cons and concerns, however, particularly regarding the complexity of implementation and whether pharmacies will need to invest in new systems. There are data privacy risks, as the world is seeing an increasing number of cyber-attacks, which is a concern as we are adding more areas for data sharing. In addition, the regulatory ambiguity resulting from removing definitions from the 1968 Act may cause initial confusion during the transition.

Between 16 March and 8 June 2022, the previous Government consulted on legislative proposals to allow pharmacies and dispensing doctors to access hub and spoke dispensing models. Two different models were proposed:

“Model 1 is where the patient presents a prescription to the spoke. The spoke then sends the relevant information on to the hub so that they can carry out their agreed dispensing actions. The hub then sends these dispensed medicines back to the spoke, which may have further responsibilities to perform such as providing advice on the medicine to the patient, before supplying them to the patient.

In model 2, the same pathway is followed in that the patient presents a prescription to the spoke, which then sends the relevant information to the hub. The hub then assembles and prepares the medicine before supplying the completed order directly to the patient.”

On Monday 13 May 2024, shortly before the general election was called just over a year ago, the previous Government published a response to the consultation. The majority of respondents, being medium and larger pharmacy chains, representative sector organisations and other related businesses, supported the proposals. However, a majority of individuals, smaller pharmacies and independent pharmacies did not support the policy change.

At the time, the proposed next step was to make several amendments to the 2012 regulations, including the creation of two new models: spoke-hub-spoke and spoke-hub-patient. The previous Government intended to lay a final statutory instrument before Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly with a view to the legislation coming into force on 1 January 2025. However, because of the election, that statutory instrument was not laid.

The Minister reiterated this Government’s position in response to a question from the hon. Member for Warrington South (Sarah Hall):

“A wide range of community pharmacies and representative organisations fed into the public consultation on hub and spoke reform, and I am pleased to confirm that their responses were overwhelmingly positive in support of model 1 of hub and spoke, which we will be going with.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2025; Vol. 764, c. 774.]

There are two problems here—the implementation and the principle—and I will take them in turn.

The impact assessment, which was updated in April 2025, found uncertainty about the potential costs of establishing the hubs, the operating costs and the level of uptake of hub and spoke dispensing. Paragraph 78 stated:

“It has not been possible to determine the initial set up costs for hubs, due to the variety of different hub solutions and because we do not have a concrete assessment of the number and types of hubs that might open due to this policy.”

Paragraph 136 said:

“The key uncertainties in this IA are around the level of take up of hub and spoke arrangements and the net level of savings to dispensing costs that could arise”.

And paragraph 137 said:

“Ultimately hubs are private businesses who would need to conduct their own analysis and research into the level of market interest when deciding how much to invest in building hub capacity.”

In the light of that, can the Minister tell us whether there will be any further funding to implement this change? How will he record data on uptake and changes? And what incentive is there for businesses to take this up? Will it be mandated? Given the abolition of NHS England, where will the data be collated, who will collate it, and when will it be published?

I have now addressed the practical part, so I will now focus the Committee’s attention on the other part. The previous Government proposed to take forward both models: model 1, which was patient-spoke-hub-spoke-patient; and model 2, which was patient-spoke-hub-patient. I have been contacted on the latter by Pharmacy2U, which is the largest online distance-selling pharmacy.

Every month, Pharmacy2U dispenses more than 3 million items directly to the homes of 1.5 million customers, so it offers an alternative for patients. It asks why there was no formal consultation on the changes from the previous Government’s position, whether Ministers had considered whether this change excludes the perspectives of distance-selling pharmacies, and what the expected impact of excluding model 2 will be.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Stuart. I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a registered pharmacist, and previously a superintendent pharmacist of a distance-selling pharmacy. Although it is great to hear the hon. Member refer to distance-selling pharmacies in this august place, I remind him that he is representing the views of only one, admittedly large, distance-selling pharmacy, and that there is perhaps a wider range of views among distance-selling pharmacies.

[Dr Evans]

Of course, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point, with his august history as a pharmacist. My job in the Opposition is to raise these issues with Ministers for consideration. At the heart of my point is that, by choosing only one model and not offering two, we are closing down the opportunity for not only patients but businesses. If we want to invent in the NHS, that seems a bad way of doing it. It is why the last Government suggested that having a couple of models allows people to invest in, invigorate and improve our system, because otherwise, innovation will fall behind. That is at the heart of the questions I am posing to the Minister.

That leads me nicely on to my follow-up question. Does this mean that the Minister will choose not to introduce model 2? Is that likely to be in line in the future, and if so, when?

Those questions go to the principle of this. The last Government decided that there were two options to accommodate all different fields, be it dispensing GPs, community pharmacies, large-scale chemists and pharmacies or, indeed, distance-selling pharmacies. It is really important to take into account the whole environment we have in the health service. We will not divide the Committee, but we would like answers to those questions about the practicalities and policies behind the regulations.

Mental Health Bill [Lords]

Luke Evans Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 19th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

A rough road is not the same as a collapsed bridge. Both slow you down, but one stops you entirely. There is a simple distinction that is often missed in the public discourse: the difference between mental wellbeing and mental health. Every one of us faces challenges that affect our mental wellbeing, such as stress, burnout and grief, but fortunately not all of us experience diagnosable mental health conditions. Recognising that nuance helps us talk more openly and responsibly about what support is needed, for whom and where.

At the heart of this Bill are the most vulnerable people in our society. Tonight we have debated not how Parliament serves the powerful, but how it protects the most vulnerable while upholding freedom, how it safeguards the public without surrendering to fear, and how it balances the need for control with the imperative of compassionate care. Mental incapacity may dim a person’s ability to choose, but the law must never let it extinguish their right to matter.

Reform of mental health law must recognise that protecting someone from themselves or others is not carte blanche to own their life, but simply involves borrowing the reins for a time to steer the person to recovery, and handing them back when agency is restored and they are fully equipped to chart their path once more.

We have heard personal testimonies in today’s debate. The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Samantha Niblett) talked about her mother being sectioned, the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) talked about his mother being sectioned for schizophrenia, the hon. Member for Winchester (Dr Chambers) talked about his friend who died of suicide, and the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley (Chris Coghlan) talked about his friend who was murdered. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jen Craft) spoke about her personal experience with OCD and bipolar, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Laura Kyrke-Smith) talked about her post-natal depression and the suicide of a friend, the hon. Member for Southend West and Leigh (David Burton-Sampson) talked about his friend Sam who died from suicide, and the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) spoke about his close relative who was sectioned for psychosis. It shows that this discussion has got to the top of the nation and that it is at the very heart of every part of our communities.

The hon. Member for Winchester talked about the problems of suicide for the professions, particularly doctors, vets and farmers. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark said that he has had a ride-along three times with the police. I am pleased he is getting on so well with the police, but, more importantly, he made the very valid point that that is not a role for the police. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Dr Tidball) talked about autistic people and learning difficulties, using her specialist abilities from her professional aspect as chair of the APPG. My hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer), whose CV is as long as the Bill itself, talked about compassionate treatment, how to use the legislation and, most importantly, the scope of the powers, in essence because of the need to be precise when using such powers.

The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) talked about the importance of support for learning disabilities and autism. It is really important that this is about community, given that last week was Mental Health Awareness Week, for which the theme was community. The hon. Member for Dorking and Horley spoke passionately about Fiona’s campaign for Christopher’s case, and we will look closely at that amendment in Committee. The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Kevin McKenna) is a nurse who also brings his professional experience to this House. He and I both came into this House to try to change the NHS, and while we chose different sides, there is clearly passion there.

My hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford) talked about his experience of improving the system and policies to improve mental health care. The hon. Member for Thurrock—a member of the Health Committee, as I was—talked passionately about OCD and bipolar, and how important it is to show that people can achieve whatever they put their mind to, no matter how high the barriers in front of them. The hon. Member for St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire (Ian Sollom) told a passionate and moving tale about Declan, and the tragic story, which really helped bring to life what can, unfortunately, go on in this country. The hon. Member for Whitehaven and Workington (Josh MacAlister) spoke about the higher level of suicide in his area, and the importance of making sure that that is identified.

The hon. Member for Dewsbury and Batley (Iqbal Mohamed) talked about the racial discrepancies, which is really important. The key thing is evidence of why that is happening, and to make the legislation effective off the back of that. The hon. Member for Ashford (Sojan Joseph) talked, as a mental health care nurse and chair of the APPG, about personalised care, which is so important. That leads me to the hon. Member for Guildford (Zöe Franklin), who also talked about putting the patient at the centre. The hon. Member for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey) talked about local services such as Lighthouse and No Limits, again showing the community support, and the hon. Member for Leicester South (Shockat Adam) talked about the placement of children, at which we will be looking very closely in Committee. The hon. Member for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper) pointed out the impact that social media can have on young people’s minds. The mental wellbeing of this House would not be the same without hearing the dulcet tones of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) from the back Bench.

The hon. Member for Blackpool South (Chris Webb) talked about the mental health charities that he has seen at first hand and about how people suffer. The hon. Member for Aylesbury rightly shone a spotlight on maternal health, which often gets missed in this conversation. The hon. Member for Southend West and Leigh talked about men’s mental health—a passion of mine—and he was right to point to the men’s mental health strategy that the Government are bringing forward, and in which I encourage everyone to take part. The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles (Michael Wheeler) rightly talked about learning from others, and we have definitely done that in this debate. The hon. Member for Stockton North (Chris McDonald) talked specifically about the men’s shed, and I look forward to seeing his campaign on Labour for lawn mowers in its next manifesto.

The hon. Member for Stroud and I have both seen more than a handful of patients with mental health issues in our time, and I love his idea, which I hope will be brought forward, about having management plans already decided by the patient, so that when they are in crisis, that has already been dealt with. Last but not least, the hon. Member for Dartford (Jim Dickson) talked about the accumulative attention across this House that has led us here today, which is really important. We heard that the first mental health Act was introduced in 1959, but I am shocked—not once, but twice—to find I am the same age as the Mental Health Act 1983 and that I share the same year as the Health Secretary.

In 2007, the previous Labour Government introduced community treatment orders and independent mental health advocates, all aiming to increase the support for people at risk of being detained and allowing patients who have been detained to be discharged to communities if certain conditions allowed. However, valid concerns were raised, and Members on both sides of the House have agreed that more needs to change. I am pleased that the Bill builds on the work of the previous Government, who made significant strides in addressing the long-standing disparity between physical and mental health.

As has been mentioned, former Prime Minister Baroness May commissioned the independent Wessely review into the 1983 Act. I, too, pay tribute to their work in this journey. His report built on the principles of choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit, and people as individuals. The Conservative Government worked to create a draft Bill, which as we heard underwent significant scrutiny—we even have Members here who were part of it—recognising the need to get it right. Much of the Wessely report’s recommendations are here in front of us tonight, built around advance choice documents, improving advocacy, reform of community treatment orders, and changes around autism and learning disabilities, to name some of the 150 recommendations. On behalf of His Majesty’s official Opposition, I am pleased to stand here today and say that we support the principles behind the Bill. We will work constructively with the Government to scrutinise and improve it in Committee, and ensure that we pass good legislation that will do what is intended.

The Minister understands that progress in principle must become progress in practice, so I would like to jog his memory about some of the questions asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar). Does the Minister believe there are enough treatment facilities, particularly in the community? Are there adequate places of safety for people being detained once police and prison cells are removed? Does the mental health tribunal system have capacity to deal with more cases? And what will happen following the abolition of NHS England, which commissions specialist mental health services? Does he believe in hitting the mental health investment standard? Will he commit to doing so going forward? To that end, will he set out a timetable for this House, the services and the public to all work towards, to be held account to?

There is little greater moral burden than deciding for someone who cannot decide for themselves where care ends and control begins. Make no mistake, this is what this House is grappling with tonight and throughout the passage of the Bill. Involuntary care should never be the first instinct or answer, but a resort to prevent harm to both the individual and those around them. Compassionate care, therefore, demands precision. Without precision, we simply have sentiment. As His Majesty’s Opposition, we will endeavour to ensure that the Government’s sentiment becomes a commitment.

World Asthma Day

Luke Evans Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Westminster Hall

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq.

I would also like to place on record my thanks again to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Those unkind might say he chases the spotlight of Westminster Hall, but they would be grossly mistaken: he chases purpose, which is why we find him everywhere, with boundless energy, trying to make a difference, and nowhere more so than in health. This must be the sixth debate I have had with him, if not more, so I take my hat off to him—he really is a champion in this space—and I thank him for what he does.

Asthma teaches us never to take a single breath for granted. When simply breathing becomes a conscious effort, we realise just how much strength it takes just to stay alive. I have seen that as a clinician working in A&E and as a GP; one of the scariest moments is when a child comes in having an asthma attack, or worse still, has one in the GP surgery, and having to manage the inhalers, the puffs they take and what to do when they deteriorate.

I have a personal story too—if we are declaring interests—to share with the hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Jessica Toale). I suffered from mild asthma growing up as a child and into my teens, but I ended up in an intensive care unit after having my appendix taken out. I ended up with bilateral pneumonia. That is highly unusual in the first place, but even more so when it is a doctor involved—we seem to be the most complicated to treat. It meant that afterwards I was left with significant breathing problems and symptoms that behaved like asthma—so much so that I would need steroids to solve them. I was also under the brittle asthma clinic in Oxford when I lived there.

I know at first hand what it is like to suffer when it is impossible to breathe, when someone’s ability to run is taken away or, worse still, they up in the middle of the night in a panic. This is a very timely and important debate that the hon. Member for Strangford has brought forward, and he has my sympathies and gratitude for doing so. On that line, I also thank Asthma + Lung UK for all the work it does to highlight this issue. As we have heard, with 7 million people suffering, this is the bread and butter of the NHS: from primary care to secondary care, day in, day out, people are being diagnosed with and treated for asthma.

As we await the 10-year plan for the NHS next month, this debate provides the chance for us to ask where we have got to with the Government. The last Government had come forward with the major conditions strategy but, alas, the new Government decided to take a different direction. Of course, that is their prerogative—no Government are bound by their predecessors. However, it does raise the question: what next? The Government will need to set out what they will do as an alternative to tackle asthma and other respiratory conditions.

It would be helpful to hear from the Minister today what assurances she can give about the inclusion she may have made of these conditions in the plan. Can she also set out what engagement her Department has had with patient groups such as Asthma + Lung UK, who put a lot of time into previous submissions to ensure the last Government understood what was needed? It would be sad to see that replication being needed, but at least the work would not be lost.

Part of dealing with asthma and respiratory conditions is vaccines and prevention. Work is clearly needed to increase uptake of the respiratory syncytial virus vaccine. I welcome findings that there was nearly a 30% reduction in hospital admissions among those aged 75 to 79, thanks to this vaccine, but the UK Health Security Agency has warned that many more older adults remain unprotected from RSV. To illustrate that point, up to the end of March, only half of eligible older adults had been vaccinated and more than 1 million people were yet to receive their vaccine.

I think we all share concerns about the significant increase in the number of bed spaces occupied by people with flu in the 2024-25 winter. That was partly due to vaccination rates among eligible groups being below what we would hope for. This winter, three times as many people as in the previous year were hospitalised because of the flu, which contributed significantly to waiting times in A&E departments. Without a clear increase in vaccination, the NHS will continue to face difficulties in urgent and emergency care. What steps will the Minister take over the next few months to increase the uptake of RSV, flu and pneumonia vaccines, particularly by those who suffer with asthma and COPD?

As a clinician, I remember over the years having to deal with different sets of guidelines. The hon. Member for Strangford hit the nail on the head. It was great to see the BTS, NICE and SIGN guidelines all coming together in November 2024, but there is a challenge in having guidelines, rolling them out and making sure clinicians are educated on the changes. What steps have the Government taken to ensure that ICBs and royal colleges are aware of the guidelines and that they are percolating down to everyone who might need to see them?

Access to fractional exhaled nitric oxide—FeNO—testing is an important step in diagnosis. There is also spirometry. Given the success of community diagnostic centres, have the Government given any thought to how such apparatus could be rolled out to communities so that more people might get access to it?

One thing that is really important with respiratory diseases, especially asthma, is smoking cessation. The Tobacco and Vapes Bill is going through Parliament, but is there any targeted approach for those who suffer with asthma to help them to reduce smoking?

Much of asthma care is delegated to nurses, not doctors. How does that fit into the forthcoming workforce plan? Will special consideration be given to respiratory nurses in both primary and secondary care? After all, they have become the experts in exactly what to prescribe and when.

Finally and most importantly, what steps are being taken to reduce asthma deaths, especially preventable ones? The word “preventable” is the biggest key here. I am keen to hear from the Minister how the Government intend to tackle this problem.

Breathing: it is the first and last thing we do, but we rarely notice it until it has gone—or, in the case of asthma, until it is threatened. I know the Minister understands that, and I know the people out there watching understand it. I hope that understanding transforms into policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ashley Dalton)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for bringing this timely debate forward as we mark last week’s World Asthma Day. It shows real leadership from the chair of the APPG for respiratory health. In that spirit, I would be delighted to take him up on his offer of a meeting. We will arrange that as soon as we possibly can—I am keen to do it.

I thank hon. Members for their contributions. I am more than happy to meet the hon. Member for Birmingham Perry Barr (Ayoub Khan) to discuss the issues that he raised, including prescription charges. There are currently no plans to review the list of medical conditions that entitle someone to apply for a medical exemption certificate. However, approximately 89% of prescription items are dispensed free of charge in the community in England and a wide range of exemptions are already in place. Eligibility depends on factors such as the patient’s age and whether they are in qualifying full-time education, are pregnant, have recently given birth or are in receipt of certain benefits. People on low incomes can apply for help with their health costs through the NHS low income scheme. Children are of course entitled to free prescriptions.

NHS England’s children and young people’s transformation team have been working closely with the MHRA on dose counters being added to inhalers. The “British National Formulary for Children” has been updated with guidance and supportive resources for patients and clinicians, which have been widely shared. We are awaiting an update on progress on making dose counter inhalers dominant in the supply chain from the pharmaceutical industry. I will be more than happy to update the House when we have it.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Jessica Toale), who focused on air quality, which is a priority for the Government and part of our prevention strategy, and the technology to help to manage asthma. There are a range of technologies available to help people to manage their asthma, and NHS England and NICE are exploring the potential for the platforms for digital self-management of asthma to be evaluated, but that depends on the technology readiness level. Guidelines developed jointly by NICE, the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network and the British Thoracic Society to harmonise recommendations across the organisations were published in November 2024, and I hope they are useful.

Before I respond to the Front-Bench contributions—if there is anything I do not cover, please let us know and we will endeavour to write with the relevant details—I want to pay tribute to charities and campaigners: people who are doing the hard yards of helping to equip our hospitals and supporting people to manage their conditions in their day-to-day lives. I thank Asthma + Lung UK, Beat Asthma and the Asthma Relief Charity, to name just a few. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans), asked about the contributions by charities to the major conditions strategy. I reassure him that engagement with such stakeholders has been central to the development of the 10-year plan. All submissions made to the major conditions strategy have been taken into account—nothing was wasted.

As the hon. Member for Strangford outlined, asthma is the most common lung condition, affecting nearly 5.5 million people in the UK. Just under one in 10 kids live with asthma, and more than 12,000 people have died from asthma attacks in the last 10 years. World Asthma Day is not just about treating a condition; it is about shining a spotlight on inequalities. I strongly agree with the hon. Gentleman that everyone, regardless of where they live or how much they have in their bank account, has the right to access the inhaled medications they need to control their condition and treat attacks.

Nevertheless, statistics published by Asthma + Lung UK just this month show that Asian people with asthma from the most deprived quintile in England are almost three times more likely to have an emergency admission to hospital than their white counterparts. Black people with asthma from that group are also more than twice as likely to be admitted to hospital. This is a burning injustice. As if that were not enough, the annual economic burden of asthma in the UK is around £3 billion a year. Lung conditions collectively cost the NHS £11 billion annually. That is why we must act.

I will update Members on NHS England’s activities in this space before moving on to wider Government efforts. NHS England is taking steps to support integrated care systems to improve outcomes for people with asthma through its national respiratory programme by providing targeted funding, clarifying what systems should be doing to ensure that people with asthma receive a high-quality and timely diagnosis, and working with key partners, industry representatives, patient groups and clinicians to support improved respiratory disease management. That will include shared decision making on inhaler choice and making better use of inhalers to reduce the overuse of reliever inhalers and encourage the use of preventer inhalers.

The hon. Member for Strangford raised the issue of access to and roll-out of treatments. Healthcare Quality Improvement Partnership, on behalf of NHS England, commissioned a national audit across respiratory care, which includes asthma, and all data from the audit is published for open access. NICE is working with BTS, SIGN, NHS England and others to review the resources available to support implementation of the guidelines, and plans to publish a respiratory toolkit. To support implementation of NICE guidance, NHS England has been engaging with health system partners across the country to co-ordinate resources and implementation efforts to make sure that patients are on the appropriate treatment regime.

NHS England is also protecting our children and young people through the national bundle of care. It is putting asthma care at the top of the agenda by giving asthma a higher priority within systems, providing funding for regional leadership, and strengthening governance and accountability to improve outcomes. It has also played a crucial role in making training easier and more readily available for staff by bringing together existing guidance and resources with a structured training scheme. Since its publication there has been a noticeable reduction in hospital admissions.

The hon. Member for Strangford and the shadow Minister both raised spirometry, a diagnostic test for asthma as well as other respiratory diseases. NHS England is working with a range of partners, including Asthma + Lung UK, the British Thoracic Society, the Association for Respiratory Technology and Physiology and clinical leads to make sure that systems have everything they need to increase the number of people receiving early and accurate diagnosis for respiratory disease. In the past year the Government have made extra funding available to make sure that staff have the proper training and accreditation to use spirometry effectively.

On inequalities, NHS England is taking steps to uplift the most deprived quintile through Core20PLUS5. That initiative focuses on five areas of improvement, of which chronic respiratory disease is a key part. There are targeted interventions to detect and treat asthma. The PLUS population groups include ethnic minority communities, people with a learning disability, autistic people, coastal communities, people with multimorbidity and protected characteristic groups. Core20PLUS5 also has a dedicated workstream for children and young people. The primary focus is to address over-reliance on reliever medications while decreasing the number of asthma attacks. That has made some progress, with clear reductions in the over-prescribing of reliever inhalers over the past few years. Between April 2022 and February 2025 the proportion of patients with asthma who received six or more reliever inhaler prescriptions fell from just under 20% to under 16%. The Government are supporting systems to take innovative approaches to expanding access to their diagnostic services, with a particular focus on addressing health inequalities.

Finally, the NHS rightly offers the flu vaccine free of charge to people with severe asthma as seasonal illnesses pose more of a threat to them than others. NHS England has been working with the severe asthma collaborative to develop the capacity of severe asthma centres to improve patient access to biologic treatments and to reduce variation in prescribing and patient management. That work has shown improved identification of patients with potential severe asthma in primary and secondary care, resulting in referral to severe asthma centres for consideration of their eligibility for biologic therapy. For four in 10 asthma patients with severe asthma those treatments can significantly improve their quality of life. However, it is vital that biologics are prescribed only following specialist assessment. Currently, the NHS is deploying six biological treatments approved to treat severe asthma.

The shadow Minister raised the issue of vaccines. I reassure him that a strategy and action are being delivered to increase vaccination uptake, including RSV and flu, because that is a priority for the Government. Returning to biologics, significant work was undertaken to drive uptake and access to them through the NHS England severe asthma collaborative, and patient outcomes are submitted to the UK severe asthma registry. That has improved the identification of patients with potential severe asthma, and has resulted in those people being referred to the relevant care pathways.

Every member of the Government is committed to raising the healthiest generation of children in our history. We are taking steps to protect our kids from obesity and smoking, which are major risk factors; each one is responsible for roughly a third of asthma deaths. We are taking action through the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which I am pleased to say has just passed Second Reading in the other place.

In her autumn Budget, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor took steps to ensure that the soft drinks industry levy remains effective. We have not just uprated the levy to bring it in line with inflation; we also published a consultation just last month on two proposed changes—reducing the lowest sugar tax threshold from 5 grams to 4 grams of total sugar per 100 ml, and removing the exemption for milk-based and milk substitute drinks. Finally, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero is cleaning up our air with Great British Energy and a raft of other measures.

My Department will shortly be publishing its 10-year plan for health to make our NHS fit for the future. We will shift the focus of our NHS from sickness to prevention, hospital to community, and analogue to digital. Until then, we are already taking steps on prevention by helping people to lose weight and quit smoking or vaping, and by helping to clean up our air. We are helping people to get diagnosed closer to home by requiring community diagnostic centres to provide spirometry tests. The Government remain committed to ensuring that existing CDCs, where they are not already, are rolled out at full operational capacity at their permanent site.

[Dr Luke Evans]

The Minister mentioned spirometry. Could she comment on FeNO, and if not, could she write to us? The guidelines are built around that, but access is going to be an issue.

[Ashley Dalton]

Yes, I confirm that I will write to the shadow Minister on FeNO at a later date. NHS England is also piloting a digital annual asthma check.

I am sorry, Dr Huq, this is highly irregular, but I am feeling extremely unwell; I need to go and make myself okay. [Interruption.] Thank you for your forbearance, Dr Huq. Crohn’s is not something that we have debated in this Chamber; if we did, no doubt I would be the responding Minister, and I can assure you that I would be able to speak from personal expertise.

Brain Tumours: Research and Treatment

Luke Evans Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

I start with a personal apology to my constituents on this VE Day. While I cannot stand there in person among those marking our victory in remembrance in Hinckley and Bosworth in north-west Leicestershire, I am carrying out the very duty that people gave their lives to protect. The sacrifice of those who fought in world war two ensures that the work of this Parliament and democracy itself endures. Their courage lives in every free debate, every vote cast, and every moment we serve the public good. That should never be forgotten or taken for granted. I am therefore privileged to respond on behalf of His Majesty’s Opposition to such an important topic that resonates with so many—brain tumours.

I pay tribute to the hon. Members for Mitcham and Morden (Dame Siobhain McDonagh) and for Witney (Charlie Maynard) for bringing forward this debate. I was also pleased to hear this important issue raised only yesterday in Prime Minister’s questions by the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Matt Bishop), talking about his constituent’s remarkable and inspirational story about overcoming glioblastoma. Although the Prime Minister did not respond with details about brain tumours specifically, these are important opportunities to raise and debate this topic while telling the human stories, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister today.

One such story is an example from my own constituency of Hinckley and Bosworth, involving Katherine and Simon Tansey and their daughter Isla. I have told this story in the House in years past, but it is so poignant that I am not shy about telling it again. We can choose to be affected by the world or we can choose to affect the world, and my constituent Isla chose the latter. In August 2017, seven-year-old Isla Tansey woke up unable to walk. After many horrible treatments, surgery and radiotherapy, she was diagnosed with DIPG—diffuse intrinsic pontine glioma—in January 2018. Isla’s mum described the terminal illness as the most traumatic and heartbreaking experience for a family to go through.

Sadly, Isla passed away in July 2018, but not before inspiring thousands around the world with her positivity and creativity through her hobby: painting stones and pebbles. Isla asked others to join her by painting their own stones with any design, but she asked them to include the hashtag #islastones and the words “photo.post.rehide”, and then to send pictures to a dedicated Facebook page for her to see. They were subsequently to leave the stones somewhere hidden so that when they were found, they could spread a little bit of the joy that Isla had given them.

Isla’s mother Katherine hoped that one day a child might find the stones, learn about Isla’s story and become a researcher in childhood cancer. Thousands of people took part, and more than 149 countries were involved. Although Isla could no longer walk, she loved to see where all the stones ended up and where they would travel next. This included the Taj Mahal, New Zealand, Disneyland and America, with one stone reaching Antarctica. Through the stones and the people who made them, hid them and posted their photos, Isla travelled the world.

The hashtag #islastones grew to a community of over 65,000 members from all across the world. In 2019, a year on from Isla’s passing, a world record was set at the Celebration of Smiles event in Hinkley for the largest display of painted stones, with 8,542—all in remembrance of Isla. Off the back of that, Simon and Katherine set up the Islastones Foundation to raise research grants, awareness and smiles to help fight childhood cancer. They were awarded the Points of Light award from the then Prime Minister in 2023.

Why does this matter? We have all heard the statistics in this debate, but these are the real stories behind the cases, and our constituents all rightly ask for real understanding, for listening and for something to change. I am reminded of the quote:

“Your life is a message to the world. Make sure it is inspiring.”

Isla’s message was truly inspiring, and I hope the Government’s message on cancer and brain tumours will be the same.

I turn to the substance of the debate. It is clear today that Members are asking for greater priority to be given to accelerating research into brain tumours and treatments. The motion partly focuses on the £40 million of funding provided by the previous Government for research into brain tumours, and I understand the frustration of MPs from across the House at the speed of allocations to projects since 2018.

At this point, I must pay tribute to the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission for its work with the NIHR. This collaboration has led to the NIHR issuing funding calls for researchers to evaluate treatments for brain tumours and to expand the network of trials for brain tumours, including the national brain tumour consortium. Looking over the debates, I noticed that the Minister said on Second Reading of the Rare Cancers Bill:

“In the five years since 2018-19, the NIHR has invested £11.3 million directly in brain cancer, with a further £31.5 million to enable brain tumour research in 227 studies involving 8,500 people. The commitment remains in place. I can confirm that there is no upper limit on that funding. We are exploring additional research policy options to encourage more clinical trials in early phase research and the development of medical devices and diagnostics.”—[Official Report, 14 March 2025; Vol. 763, c. 1434.]

That is of course encouraging, but campaigners want to see projects up and running as soon as possible. To that end, would the Minister consider the calls from Brain Tumour Research to create a set of dedicated funding streams for early-career researchers, improved access to clinical trials and better integration of brain tumours in cutting-edge cancer initiatives, especially given the proposed abolition of NHS England?

It is that deep desire to get research moving into potential new treatments that led to the Rare Cancers Bill, proposed by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur). The shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), was pleased to support the legislation when it was introduced in March. I was glad to note that the Bill received Government support, and it was endorsed by the Brain Tumour Charity, Brain Tumour Research and other patient groups. I welcome the Bill’s intention to encourage industry to concentrate more research on treatments for rare and less common cancers, including brain tumours, particularly through the review of the orphan drug regulations. However, it is vital that there is alignment with the national cancer plan, which is likely to set the direction of cancer policies for the next five to 10 years. Can the Minister confirm whether the key measures in the Bill will be included in the upcoming national cancer plan?

As well as accelerating research into brain tumours, we must take steps to increase participation among those personally affected. One of the aims of the Rare Cancers Bill is to get more patients into clinical trials for rare cancers, including brain tumours. It is sobering that the Brain Tumour Charity’s survey found that only 12% of respondents have participated in a clinical trial. We also know from the Institute of Cancer Research that brain tumour clinical trials have the lowest recruitment of any cancer type. This is why the last Government asked Lord O’Shaughnessy to review the barriers to commercial clinical trials in the aftermath of the covid pandemic. I know that the Government have stated that they are committed to implementing the recommendations of the O’Shaughnessy review, but can the Minister provide further details on what progress has been made to date?

On a side note—but a related one—at a recent VE Day celebration in Donisthorpe I met a constituent who raised with me the issue of the acquired brain injury strategy. That cross-party initiative has been championed by the hon. Member for Rhondda and Ogmore (Chris Bryant), who is now a Labour Minister. Somewhat fortuitously, I was able to tell my constituent that I was taking part in a debate on brain tumours today. She and the likes of Headway and the Child Brain Injury Trust are keen to ensure that they are able to support people through the changes that the Government are pushing through on personal independence payments and disability support, so would the Minister consider reviewing or updating the acquired brain injury strategy in the light of these changes?

Finally, I want to end on a positive note. The discussions between the MHRA and Northwest Biotherapeutics are providing hope that people living with new or recurrent glioblastoma may have access to a new treatment, DCVax-L, which could make a real difference in prolonging their survival from this terrible disease. It is important that we build on these developments, and take steps to reduce barriers to research in brain tumours and access to new treatments as they develop. After all, as one brain tumour survivor said:

“Hope is the anchor that kept me steady through the storm of my diagnosis”.

I hope that this very debate will bring hope to those suffering and their families, and will demonstrate that the Government are listening and working for better outcomes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Luke Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

You will have another chance in a minute! I call the shadow Minister.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

This Government have been in power for 10 months. Two months ago, Labour postponed the cross-party talks on social care. When will they be rescheduled?

[Wes Streeting]

As I have announced to the House, Baroness Casey’s independent commission is up and running. She is making contact with parties across the House as part of the work of her commission, and it is for her to decide the basis on which she engages with parties. I look forward to working with parties at the conclusion of the process.

[Dr Evans]

I thank the Secretary of State for that change, making the process no longer cross-party. The Government have said that the changes will not be implemented fully until 2036. Only this week, the Health and Social Care Committee released its new report on social care and the huge cost of inaction. The report called for new actions that could be taken now, such as the publishing of annual assessments of unmet care needs for adults, and annual estimates of how much delayed discharges cost the NHS. Will the Secretary of State commit to those two today?

[Wes Streeting]

I take the Select Committee seriously, and I will look carefully at its report, but the shadow Minister has some brass neck. He mentions this Government having been in office for 10 months, but the Conservatives had more than 10 years in office, and we are picking up the pieces from the mess they left behind. That is why they were kicked out of government, and why they are being kicked out of opposition. Looking at this lot, I think: this must be how the islanders felt, looking at the dodo.

Draft Health and Social Care Information Standards (Procedure) Regulations 2025

Luke Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 29th April 2025 General Committees

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Jardine. I am grateful to the Minister for coming to the Committee to explain why we may well need this SI, but I have some questions. I will not go through the benefits of these changes, but there are some risks, which are a concern for Opposition Members. We will not divide the Committee, but we would be grateful for some comments on those and on how we have got to where we are.

We know that we need to hold NHS bodies and private providers to the same standards on information. We also know that we can capture patient data more consistently across the NHS and private providers, which will greatly improve our understanding of patients’ experiences and the services they use. As the Minister rightly pointed out, the last Government recognised that and put in place the Health and Care Act 2022 to allow information standards to be applied to private providers in health and adult social care that are registered with the Care Quality Commission.

The last Government gathered views on proposals for how procedures should be changed, and I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on how that process has impacted on this SI and how it links to these procedures. Secondly, as I noted, the regulations relate to information standards applied to private providers registered with the CQC. As we know, the CQC has had some issues with its performance, so what is the Government’s assessment of its capacity to deal with compliance with these regulations?

That leads us into the question of the impending abolition of NHS England. The statutory instrument, and indeed the Health and Care Act, talk about NHS England. How will the legislation we are creating be impacted, given that it looks towards NHS England?

Turning to specific examples of information standards, one important example is accessible and transparent information under the accessible information standard. That was raised by the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, which told me before this Committee that making standards such as the AIS mandatory could have a powerful impact on the RNID. Will the Minister take that back to her Department and look at how long it will take to enact these standards, given that the Act was in 2022?

On the AIS, there is also a concern that, as the explanatory memorandum seems to suggest, we would put in place only a forward-thinking approach, rather than a backwards application. There is therefore a question whether things such as the AIS would need to be revised to make them mandatory, which could further delay the accessibility we are looking for.

That leads us on to interoperability, which is a Union question. Paragraphs 4.4 and 4.5 of the explanatory memorandum say that the extent of the regulations will be England and Wales and that the impacts will be felt in England alone. We have people on the border with the likes of Scotland and Wales, so what conversations is the Minister having with her counterparts in those jurisdictions to make sure that data is shared? At the end of the day, people have accidents in different places and seek health in different jurisdictions, and that will have a massive impact.

Finally, there is a question—which often comes up when we discuss NHS data—about what the wider impact looks like when it comes to trade deals and negotiations. That may be beyond the scope of this debate, and I do not expect the Minister to speak on behalf of her Trade colleagues, but it does raise the question of why this measure is being brought in specifically now? Is it just a timing issue, or is there a wider game afoot, in the sense that this issue would be part of, for example, a US trade deal or a closer alliance with the EU? I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on whether such discussions have taken place within the relevant Department.

I am grateful to all the civil servants and to everyone assembled here for taking part in the debate.

[Karin Smyth]

First, I thank the shadow spokesperson for the Conservative party’s support in bringing forward the regulations. As he rightly said, some of this work continues work done under the last Government and results, as I said in my introductory remarks, from the 2022 Act.

As I also said, standardisation has not been taken up across the system in the way that we would like, and this instrument provides a framework everybody can lean into. To go to the hon. Gentleman’s last question first, that reflects our need to make sure that, for the benefit of patients, clinical safety, patient support and efficiencies in the system, we have a framework that everyone works to and brings their standards into—I will not veer into something more technical that is beyond my ken, on the detail of computer systems. We wanted to make sure that we had that framework in place, and we were keen to bring it forward in an SI that is transparent for the House, so that we can all understand how this proposal is part of the wider Government mission.

As I said, this proposal started off under the last Government, and it has been brought forward now. There was an engagement exercise with stakeholders, and the response was published in November. We therefore need to issue the regulations now, particularly in advance of the Data (Use and Access) Bill. So that is the timing issue. I cannot comment further on trade deals, but that is why we are doing this: to make the system in England work better for all our patients.

To the hon. Gentleman’s point about cross-border issues, I am an MP in Bristol, and I understand those issues. We are looking at our responsibilities for England. We are keen to work with the devolved Administrations on all healthcare and cross-border issues. The Department will continue to talk to them, and I hope they are willing to continue to work with us. If there is anything further to add, I will make sure that it is communicated to the hon. Gentleman.

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the CQC, he will be aware that the organisation has undergone a number of difficult issues in the recent past. We have had new leadership in place since before Christmas, and it is keen to provide support on wider issues. Safety, in particular, is in its remit, and the hon. Gentleman, as a practising clinician, will be acutely aware of the need for different systems to be able to talk to each other to highlight issues of safety and so on. We will absolutely ensure that the CQC is working as part of this wider system.

Colleagues and staff at NHS England obviously have concerns about changes, but the need to have data that works across the whole system—that has that interoperability at its core—is a priority for everybody working in it. That is clearly part of what the NHS needs to do, and although some people may move, that is absolutely a priority for the NHS moving forward.

To the hon. Gentleman’s point about the RNID, I had not heard that. Clearly, accessibility for all is important. I am happy to make sure that we get back to him and the RNID on that issue.

[Dr Evans]

If it would be of use, I am happy to give the Minister the letter the RNID provided to me before this meeting, to give her the context. I believe that the RNID would also be happy to give briefings, if that would help.

[Karin Smyth]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, and I am sure that officials have talked with the RNID. It is absolutely right that he brings that issue to my attention, and I will make sure we get a reply back to him and the RNID on the detail and on the time it will take to enact these standards. I visited the NHS England team up in Leeds, where we spoke about providing wider access—for example, by using the app—and about working with groups such as the RNID to make sure that what we produce is accessible for disabled people. The hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I will make sure that we get back to him on it.

With that, I will make sure that we check the record, and if there is anything else, we will get back to the hon. Gentleman. Otherwise, I would be grateful if the Committee could support the SI.

Question put and agreed to.