Lords Chamber

Thursday 16th October 2025

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None Portrait Introduction(s): Lord Stockwood and Baroness Lloyd of Effra
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Charles Charles the Charles the Third. Charles the Third. By Charles the Third. By the Charles the Third. By the grace of God of the United Kingdom, of of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms and territories, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all lords, spiritual and to all lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these subjects.

Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and may emotion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our trusty and well beloved prefer our trusty and well beloved Jason Stockwood to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Stockwood, of Great Grimsby Baron Stockwood, of Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, in our County of Lincolnshire, and for us, our heirs Lincolnshire, and for us, our heirs and successors, to appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Stockwood to happen to hold unto him for his life.

Willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have, hold and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and counsels of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness our self at Westminster, the ninth day of October, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant, under the King's sign manual.

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I. Jason Lord Stockwood to swear by Almighty God that will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors according to the law.

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I.

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Charles Charles the Charles the Third, Charles the Third, by Charles the Third, by the Charles the Third, by the grace

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Charles the Third, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms, its and of our other realms, its territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these subjects. Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and may emotion in pursuance of the Life Peerages in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our trustee and well-beloved prefer our trustee and well-beloved Elizabeth Anne Lloyd, commander of our most excellent Order of the our most excellent Order of the British Empire, to the state degree, British Empire, to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Lloyd of Effra of Tulse Hill, in our London Borough of Lambeth.

And for us, our heirs and successors, to appoint, give and successors, to appoint, give and grant unto her the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Lloyd of Effra to have and to hold unto her for her life, willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that she may have, hold and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the barons, and also that she may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness our self at Westminster, the 13th day of October, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign manual.

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I. Elizabeth Baroness Lloyd of Effra. Do you swear by Almighty God Effra. Do you swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors Charles, his heirs and successors

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That

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My
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None Portrait Lord Speaker
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My My Lord, My Lord, before My Lord, before all My Lord, before all questions, My Lord, before all questions, I have a short statement to make. I have a short statement to make. I have served as Lord speaker since the House was kind enough to place the House was kind enough to place its trust in me in 2021. And as you may be aware, the election for my may be aware, the election for my successor in the post is due to take place in July next year.

However, place in July next year. However, for reasons I will explain, I wish to announce to you today that I will to announce to you today that I will step down from my post a few months earlier than that, some years ago, earlier than that, some years ago, my wife Joan was diagnosed with Parkinson's. Since that time, I have Parkinson's. Since that time, I have combined my parliamentary work with my responsibilities at home and my responsibilities at home and during this period, and indeed throughout my career.

The support of throughout my career. The support of my wife has been essential to my service in Parliament. It was Joan service in Parliament. It was Joan who encouraged me to return to education and to become a teacher. education and to become a teacher. After I left school with no formal qualifications. She selflessly supported me in my work as MP for our home town of Dumbarton, as well as in this House, so I have now taken the decision that I must in future, spend the majority of my time at home supporting my wife.

I have informed the Leader of the House that my final day in this post will be the 1st of February, 2026, and House officials will make the necessary preparations for an election to select my successor in time for an orderly handover. My Lords, it's been the honour and privilege of my life to serve this House as its fourth Lord speaker. And in the remaining months of my tenure, I will continue to do my utmost to fulfil my duties diligently.

My work has been made easier and more satisfying by the friendship and support I have enjoyed from so many of you across the whole House. I have been ably supported by the excellent and dedicated team of Deputy Speakers, and I have benefited each and every day from the superb work of the staff of the House, in particular the exceptional team in my own office. So I would like to express my deepest gratitude to all noble Lords and to the staff of the House for the unstinting support that I
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Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his question. Before I answer him directly, I also pay tribute to the Lord speaker. He's been a friend to me when he was an MP when I was first joined this House and pay tribute to his outstanding service as speaker of this House. The noble Lord is absolutely correct to say that stablecoins have a huge potential to play a significant role in both retail and wholesale payments. We are already seeing the benefits of stablecoin come providing cross-border payments, for example, by reducing costs and improving efficiencies.

So I think he's absolutely right to say it's important for the UK to harness these opportunities for the ongoing competitiveness of the UK financial services sector. I do not think, though, it's fair to say, that the US is particularly going any faster than the UK. I think you reading media coverage, you may conclude that, but I think the reality is that the US passed legislation for the regulation of stablecoin. In the summer, US regulators will publish their regulatory rules in mid 2026, with the backstop date of January 27th.

For the US regime to go live in the UK. The government published draft legislation in April, with the final legislation due before the end of the year, and alongside this, the FCA is at an advanced stage in its consultations on the details of its regime, with a view to finalise its detailed rules and requirements in 2026. This will allow firms to be authorised and running in the UK regime by 2027.
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Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
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with with every word that the noble Lord said. I think absolutely getting the regulatory regime right for this is important. And as I say,

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we'll bring forward that legislation by the end of this year. We already have now explained that.

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that. As the co-chair of the all-party group on digital currencies. And can group on digital currencies. And can I ask the minister, given the Bank of England's announcement that it plans to regulate how much plans to regulate how much stablecoin an individual can hold in a stablecoin is simply a digital currency linked to a fiat currency currency linked to a fiat currency for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. Does this not send a terrible signal to people who want terrible signal to people who want to base their crypto businesses in the UK? And would he ask the Bank of England to publish their modelling, England to publish their modelling, because their reasoning is based on the fact that unlimited holdings of stablecoins might lead to a run on

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bank deposits? Here, here. I'm grateful to the. Grateful to the noble Lord for his question, and as Chair of that committee, I'm sure he could help educate very many of he could help educate very many of us in this House. As I've said, the government recognises facilitating stablecoin innovation is important stablecoin innovation is important for UK competitiveness, but it is a matter for the Bank of England as the independent regulator for the independent regulator for systemic stablecoin to design the regime, they see necessary to manage the associated risks.

As I the associated risks. As I understand it, in November 2023, the bank published a discussion paper on its proposed regulatory regime for systemic payment systems using stablecoins seeking industry feedback. Following further informal engagement, the bank will formally consult on its systemic stablecoin regime in the coming months.

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Second oral question Baroness Stowell of Beeston. My leave to ask. The questions.

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The questions. Coming in my name on the Order Paper.
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None Portrait Oral questions: Resolving the ownership of the Telegraph and ensuring compliance with Chapter 3A of the Enterprise Act 2002
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is a quasi judicial process, and it is for the Secretary of State to determine this matter. The question little shop of Epsom.
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Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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My noble friend is absolutely right. Of course, the opportunities that young people have throughout their lives are dependent on the standards, the quality and the success that they that those young people therefore have in schools, which is why we will we have already taken action to ensure that there are new routes available for young people. Post 16, for example, through foundation apprenticeships. It's why we have increased the support available to young people in colleges for to get the qualifications in English and maths that are so important for them later in life.

And it's why, through both Becky Francis's curriculum and assessment review and the government's Post 16 Skills and Education White Paper will have more to say about how we ensure that there are clear, successful routes for all of our young people. Post 16. My. Look, my Lords, I'm disappointed to hear the Minister in talking about youth unemployment, to talk about Universal Credit and talk about Universal Credit and other such things. I would have thought, and I would ask the Minister to consider, that surely Minister to consider, that surely one of the basic ways of reducing youth unemployment is to use more apprentices and encourage more apprentices.

If we only had people who were encouraged financially by the government in in plumbing, in electrical and all the trades that electrical and all the trades that people need, we are using people from overseas because we're not from overseas because we're not training anyone. And I would like to know that government is giving know that government is giving financial incentives to the plumbers, electricians and the like to actually train the tradespeople to actually train the tradespeople for the future. Yeah.

Lord that yes, indeed we are. And he's right that the fact that there's been a 40% reduction in young people starting apprenticeships over recent years is a shocking indictment of the last government's approach to skills and the training of young people. And that's why one of the things, for example, just this August, that August that we have introduced is new foundation apprenticeships to support young people into employment in a range of different areas, important both for them and for the economy as a whole.

And it's why. And in those, incidentally, there is a £2,000 incentive to the employer to take on those young people for training. And it's why we'll have more to say about that and the opportunities for young people when we publish our post 16 whitepaper.
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None Portrait Oral questions: Changing law or practice regarding police vetting, training or discipline
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about all of that in our post 16 White Paper soon. Fourth oral question Baroness Chakrabarti.
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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Conservative)
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Questions on a statement made in the House of Commons on Tuesday the

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14th of October on the Middle East. My Lords, when the Lord speaker told me of his decision last night told me of his decision last night to retire early, I was actually overwhelmed by the sense of his love for his wife of 56 years. That led to the decision. There'll be another time for tributes, my Lords, but I would like the Lord speaker to know how much he himself is loved in this House, and he and Joan will be in our thoughts and prayers in the time ahead.

My Lords, everyone in this House will welcome the wide acceptance of the US led plan, and I want to congratulate all those regional and world leaders who played a decisive role in helping stage one cease fire become a reality. It represents a significant breakthrough on which we all hope a sustainable end to the conflict in Gaza and a better peaceful future can be built. And let us be clear, the unique personality and drive of President Trump has moved the dial in a way that very few, until a very few days ago ever believed possible.

He deserves the highest praise for that, and frankly, how foolish those are. Like Sir Edward Davey, who boasted of boycotting the president's state visit, must now feel. But my Lords, having a move for dial, we now have to move mountains, ending permanently a crisis of long decades composing hatreds intensified in war and death. This will be a monumental challenge, yet it can and must succeed. The release of the hostages who should never have been taken, taunted, tortured and abused brings to their families and all the people of Israel a joy and relief that we all share.

But now Hamas must end their sick gains with the families of the hostages they murdered in those hundreds of miles of dark tunnels on which they squandered international aid. My Lords, none of us can ever comprehend how the families of those lost people must be feeling. All the bodies of the deceased hostages must be returned for proper burial. As the Prime Minister has emphasised, just a noble Baroness have any further information on this? My Lords, when we hear some of the comments prophesying failure of the international initiative when it's barely started and even see continuing anti-Semitic demonstrations on our streets, even on October the 7th, many of us must ask ourselves if some people actually want the prize of peace.

My Lords, will the noble Baroness be absolutely assured of our support for the government in all it has done and can do in the future in help carrying, helping to carry forward the international plan? It's true that we believe that the government's action in recognising a Palestinian state, while Hamas was still in control of Gaza, was a serious error. Secretary of State Rubio had said it was unhelpful to finding a sustainable end to the conflict. And we agree we support a two state solution that guarantees security and stability for both the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

But will the noble Baroness assure us that now the UK government on this and other matters will proceed in lockstep with the Sharm el Sheikh plan? Does she agree that if the Palestinian Authority is to have an expanded role, it needs to implement the most significant reforms in its history, including to its welfare and education policies? And of course, it must demonstrate democratic process. Can the noble progress? Can the noble Baroness tell the House how the British government will be assisting in that? And can she also update the House on the latest position in respect to our role in getting humanitarian assistance into Gaza, whose people have suffered so long and so much? Can she say how we will ensure that aid does not go into the hands of the murderous thugs of Hamas? My lords, the barbaric sight of Hamas lining up and filming bound Muslims being shot publicly in the back of the neck is something that even Stalin thought best hidden in the cellars of the Blanka.

It was a micro image of the terror that her have exacted on their own people, in addition to their never to be forgotten atrocities of October the 7th against the State of Israel, and people who had committed no crime except to be born Jews. Hamas has no regard for human life or human dignity. My Lords, does the government agree that Hamas must be erased? Absolutely from the political map of Gaza forever, its terrorist infrastructure completely dismantled, and the poisonous ideology of Islamist extremism confronted everywhere across the world and here in our own homeland, has a noble Baroness any update for the House on the formation of an international force to provide security in Gaza? As the international plan envisages.

And finally, my Lords, can I welcome the tone of this Prime Minister statement and also that of the Home Secretary on the evil of anti-Semitism and the mania of libel against Jews? Of course, we condemn any assault or threat to anyone on the basis of their faith and beliefs. The outrage at Peacehaven has no place in Britain, but the Home Secretary was refreshing in her frankness, not always heard from within her party in recent years, as some in this House can very well testify that Islamist terrorism and its twisted ideology is our greatest domestic threat, and that anti-Semitism is on the march across communities, in our schools, universities, even the NHS, and threatening members of your lordships House as they try to come and go to this place.

The government will have our fullest support and decisive action in those areas. As the Home Secretary has promised. Can the noble Baroness say if any of the measures foreshadowed by the Home Secretary could be included in the crime Bill, which is before us today? My Lords, it's good that protection for Jewish institutions is being stepped up, but we need to return to a society where no Jewish person feels that they have to be protected. And we must aspire to a world where all the children of the Middle East are educated, not in hate, but in harmony.

And where that great region, the cradle of so much that is good in the history of humanity, spends its inestimable material and human resources not on guns, but on growth, and frankly, where all their ways are gentleness and all their paths are peace. Yes, my Lords, it will be a giant task to bring the international plan to fruition. But we must all put our shoulders to the wheel. And every step that our Prime Minister takes to help make it happen will have our strongest support.
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Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords on behalf of the Liberal Democrat benches, I also wish to thank the Lord speaker for his work in this House, but also the decades of public service and the very personal nature of his statement, which highlighted the sacrifice that many of our loved ones and family members. Go through when we carry out our public duties, and we will look forward to Du statements in the future on tributes to him and his role. I preface my remarks as I did in my first comment as leader of the Liberal Democrats in this House, calling for a statement from the government on Sudan and the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

And I repeat that to the leader. I also wish to start my remarks on the Middle East by condemning the horrific incidents of anti-Semitism that we have seen in our communities. Alas, the most recent has not been isolated, and we must redouble our efforts to ensure our Jewish community is not only safe but feels safe in our country. In too many situations, it has not. And also too many young Muslims are fearful of Islamophobia. And even if we see the sustaining of the ceasefire and the eventual peace that we all hope for, we must be aware that one of the likely legacies of this war will be the will be seen in our communities for years and years to come, and we must be prepared for that.

The excruciating and sometimes performed performative press events that we've seen in the last few days. While children without shelter continue to suffer, means that healing is going to be important, and the lack and the two two frequency of the political stunts when there is the humanitarian crisis continuing, should make us all feel very sober. The Hostage returns is an extremely welcome and enormous relief for the families. It was a reprehensible war crime for Hamas to have held them in the way they did, and the return of the bodies of those that, sadly, have lost their lives may mean some healing for those who have suffered.

The scale of the recovery is going to be enormous in both physical and mental terms. 80 years on in this country, we collectively recall the Blitz and the damage and trauma it inflicted on London during the Second World War, 20,000 bombs were dropped on London, a terrifying figure in Gaza. Geographically, a quarter of the size of London, 70,000 tons of bombs have been dropped in two years. The level of destruction inflicted on London then resulted in over 2.7 million tonnes of rubble needing to be cleared, which literally took well over a decade to complete.

In Gaza, remember a quarter of the footprint of London? The scale of the bombardment has resulted in 6060 million tons of rubble, more than 20 times that of the Blitz on London. So my first question to the leader is what role will the UK play? And the enormous task of the scale of the recovery that's going to be necessary, including rubble clearance and the commencing of reconstruction? We will have to operate at scale and therefore I appeal to the government again to move towards restoring our commitment on international development assistance.

That reduction from 0.3% by the current government and now the opposition, stating that they will reduce it to next to zero, means that this is not right. We need to step up on our humanitarian support for the reconstruction of Gaza, not leave the room. The impact on the civilians as well reported the starvation, the denial of anaesthesia for operations on children and the creation of conditions that have seen Hamas gangsterism continue. But the underreported but grim task is now only commencing, which is likely that the thousands of corpses needed to be identified under the rubble.

When I visited the Gaza border last year, I was struck by the constancy of the explosions, gunfire, jet aircraft howls and the dull but persistent and constant sound and sight of drones. Imagine our children not having a single night where this is not been ever present for two years. Therefore, the psychological scars and the mental scars are deep, and an entire generation of children are traumatised. But also we know that Israeli youngsters who did not want war or have any role in that policy of, of having a war, have had their national service where they have served their nations, but they have gone through hell in this process, two sets of communities deeply scarred.

So when we talk about peace, we do need to understand fully what it will mean, because it is deep and the trauma will be present. Therefore, I close with this specific appeal to the Minister, which I've raised to the leader which I praised previously, and what role the UK can play. We do need clarity from the government with regards to what level of support it will provide to the Palestinian Authority, and the likely to be the transitional authority. What practical measures the UK will be providing? The UK has got excellent experience of post-conflict reconstruction and we have professionalism and good relations, and how are we going to exploit that? And also what relationship with the UK play with the emerging Stabilisation Force? But as I've seen in my work that I carried out in north Iraq after Daesh had occupied Mosul.

The UK can play a very important role in restoring education and child trauma support, especially for the psychological psychosocial support that's needed. Recovery from the horror must be immediate, intensive and accessible, and the UK can play a direct role in having immediate pop up education and child child trauma centres constructed immediately. But this should not be an add on to the process. There is no mention of education and child support in the 21 point plan from the United States, so I hope the Minister, the leader, may be willing to meet me and some colleagues with regards to ensuring that if we talk about peace, that's for the long term, not just an immediate ceasefire.
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Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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There have. come back the Lord speaker as well, who's a personal friend and I first knew in 19, I think it was about 84 because we were both candidates in the 87 election together for the first time. And I think the.

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Reasons he is standing down go to the heart of the integrity of the man as well. So we.

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So we. Will miss him, but we'll. Enjoy. Working with him. And then he finishes his term before. He.

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He. Stands down. Also, I think both of the broads for the comments they of the broads for the comments they made and the tone and particularly the support to the government for the work we're undertaking. This isn't a party political issue. I isn't a party political issue. I think across the world parties have come together. Countries are coming come together. Countries are coming together to take part in the process of a ceasefire and what comes next. of a ceasefire and what comes next.

And we all know from experience that when you have a plan to move forward, there are times when the forward, there are times when the next step forward is imperfect, it's sometimes inadequate, it's difficult, but it's that step by step approach that takes us to a place where people can be safe. And place where people can be safe. And what we've seen over the past two years. When the hostages were first years. When the hostages were first taken, there are things that can't be undone.

The images we've seen on TV when we saw those hostages being TV when we saw those hostages being taken, we can't unsee that. When we saw children starving in Gaza and saw children starving in Gaza and houses bombed, we can't unsee that. But neither can we unsee the joy and the relief from the families who have seen their loved ones returned, and the horrors they have been through in that time. And I know it's right to talk about releasing all the hostages.

It is a tragedy that some are now being returned as bodies to be buried, but for their families to be able to grieve, they must see all the hostages returned. And I hope that international efforts can be brought to bear on that as well. The noble Lord talked about the. He felt the wreckage of the Palestinian state was the wrong thing to do. I would challenge that. I think all of these things, the process and the only way forward for genuine peace with a secure and stable and confident Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state, is to have that two state solution and the recognition of Palestine along with other countries we saw was very important in that.

It's interesting that after the other countries in the UK recognise Palestine, we saw the Arab countries also condemn Hamas, which we hadn't seen before. So, as I say to him, the road and the path to peace is often an imperfect one, but it's one that has to be taken to assure the safety of people. He asked about both noble Lords asked about next steps. The path to peace is going to be difficult, and that's why the Wilton Park Conference will be so important on reconstruction.

And I did find the ways forward, the role different countries can play, more details that will become available as the conference progresses. But can I also say the role of Sir Michael Barber as UK envoy of the Palestinian Authority? Governance will be crucial in all of this. Noble Lord true, I think the obsession asked about in reconstructing Gaza, there's issues such as education, there's the health service. You know, there is not a viable state there. In a sense. They haven't got the public service infrastructure and dealing with that.

And what he made about support needed for young people, particularly in the trauma centres, that's all going to be part of having a viable state. You have to have a viable public sector that can deliver the services that people need. And so the work that he will be undertaking is also part of the reform agenda as well. Strengthen the capacity for delivery, improve the service provision, and that's going to be essential as a Palestinian Authority is able to build an effective state of Palestine and take on the full responsibilities there, and we need to empower and help form that Palestinian Authority.

The other point on how do you ensure this? There are now going to be more agencies on the ground, and I think it's going to be important that we see journalists now having access. So there can be reports back and public awareness as well. I can easily restate there is no role for Hamas in the government of Palestine. I think the Prime Minister has been very clear on that. It's absolutely crucial that Hamas decommission their weapons, and that's a precursor to actually seeing a genuine, sustainable and lasting peace as well.

Both noble Lords made comments on what is the is a rise in anti-Semitism in the country, which alarms us all. But I think one of the things that alarms me most is the blatant voicing of that, that people seem to have a new confidence of expressing anti-Semitism, and I think that goes alongside the rise. But it's equally important to address that. There can be no acceptance of anti-Semitism. It's another phobia in this country when our Jewish community doesn't feel safe, that damages us all.

Now, the government has provided, I think so far about £80 million funding for communities CSG and that will fund will continue. But I think all of us have to call out anti-Semitism, even in its most minor forms, as and when we hear it, it can never be tolerated, it's never acceptable, and we will be failing in our duty to our Jewish community if we don't call it out on each and every opportunity we are called to do so.
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Baroness Hussein-Ece Portrait Baroness Hussein-Ece (Liberal Democrat)
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I.

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Democrat Friends of Palestine. Oh my Lord. speak.

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speak. So if we go with the Liberal Democrats and then our. You from the crossbench now, I'm grateful. Declaring that I'm president of

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Declaring that I'm president of Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine, absolutely accept that the leader of the Liberal House has the leader of the Liberal House has just said about Hamas is coming up a lot. The Hamas has no place in any future government in governance of a future government in governance of a free and independent Palestine. I think everyone agrees to that. And think everyone agrees to that. And I, I think the tributes to the Arab and Muslim countries who have been absolutely vital and instrumental in bringing this about has been very well placed.

And I'm particularly well placed. And I'm particularly pleased that Turkey, Turkey, President Erdogan plays such a key role without. And he was given that role without. And he was given that emphasis. The emphasis was given by President Trump himself, were able President Trump himself, were able to put pressure on Hamas to agree to this deal and to all the conditions that they will have to disarm. But that they will have to disarm. But when at the moment, the concern we have is that we are in very fragile, have is that we are in very fragile, fragile moments when we're between two phase one and phase two, phase one is clear.

Now the urgent need is one is clear. Now the urgent need is for eggs to come in. That's the urgent need for aid. The Rafah crossing is still closed. So can I ask? There are children. I'm being

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heckled and I'm going to continue my. I'm coming to. The question. I'm not going to be bullied by

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I'm not going to be bullied by two conservatives. I think. There is an urgent need for aid and there has not been enough and there has not been enough emphasis on that. The Rafah crossing is still closed. The aid is not getting through. People are still suffering. Medical aid hasn't got three children. There are 20,000 orphaned children at least. So I orphaned children at least. So I ask. Can I ask the minister on this technical when we when the technical when we when the discussions are taking place, what special emphasis will be placed on all those children that have nobody all those children that have nobody if they don't have an orphaned and I the special the special protection and need? Can I ask about the children, as my noble friend did on on the protection for children,
12:40
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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on the protection for children, particularly in Palestine? There was a number of items in

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There was a number of items in there, particularly on the aid being delivered. She asked about the Rafah crossing. It was open briefly, then closed again. My understanding now is it's preparations are now being made to reopen it because clearly, though, airdrops are useful way of getting aid in it has to get into the lorries. So preparations there. I understand that. Tom Fletcher, I saw something yesterday or this morning that he was out there working on that as well.

She makes a particular point about children of Gaza, and she's absolutely right to do so, because many of those children, the traumas they are going to feel for what they've been through is going to be enormous. And I think looking at the reconstruction conference will be taking place at Wilton Park, one of the issues has to be in the work that Michael Barbara is doing as the UK envoy in Palestine is looking at the services that are available and how that can be provided at pace and ongoing, because unless you have the recognition that life isn't going to be normal, it's not a ceasefire and the life is normal, the next day, the infrastructure of the country is in a dire state.

And we've heard from nightmare from Pilate about hospitals being destroyed. Schools have gone. There is so much work to be done, but the efforts should be ensuring that we want those young people who are grown up now to be part of the future of their country, and they can only do that if the right support is in place now and the traumas they've been through, the tragedies they have suffered, that is also dealt with in a way that allows them to play a full part.

It would be the future of their states.
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12:47
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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relationships between Israelis and those living locally. Can you do

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something about it? I think all of us will do our

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I think all of us will do our best, but no one will make the important point that the path to peace is a process. It's never a moment. It's something that's ongoing. And members of your Lordships' House, we call the Lordships' House, we call the process bringing peace to Northern Ireland wasn't one that was easy at times. The steps that are taken forward are imperfect. They're inadequate, they're unsatisfactory. But it's a step forward. And at each But it's a step forward.

And at each stage I think we have to recognise the way the goal is and the prize of the way the goal is and the prize of peace for people in that region has to be the greatest prize ever. What the children, the young people, the the children, the young people, the old people, they've just think about it. People going around about their lives. So their loved ones snatched lives. So their loved ones snatched and taken as hostages for fear there, and people trying to live there, and people trying to live their lives in Gaza.

So their homes, their hospitals, their schools destroyed. So the path will be destroyed. So the path will be difficult. Path will be rocky. I don't know. I recognise the times that he offers. But each day forward where people aren't being killed is progress. And that's what we aim for. Yeah.

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for. Yeah. My notes are I'll pause for a minute or two to allow noble Lords to leave who wish to before. to leave who wish to before.
12:49
None Portrait Legislation: Crime and Policing Bill - second reading
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Policing Bill.
12:49
Baroness Levitt Portrait Baroness Levitt, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint. disappoint anybody. I'm in fact, not the Lord Hanson of Flint. It's would not be a very convincing interpreter impersonation, not least because he's sitting next to me. But you will have the pleasure of hearing from him later on. My Lords, I beg to move that the bill be. Now, read a second time, my Lords, this bill reflects not only our manifesto commitments, but it demonstrates the careful stocktake that we have made of important parts of our criminal justice system and our determination to improve the law where needed.

It aims to keep citizens safer and more confident in the daily lives of all of us. And I am proud of our proposals. They are fair and proportionate and they add to the law where needed. My Lords, as part of the Bill's driving force, which is to make people and communities safer, it will build on what we have done already in the past year to rebuild neighbourhood policing. We are restoring public trust in the criminal justice system by the delivery of our Safer Streets mission, and we aim to halve, yes, halve, knife crime and violence against women and girls in a decade.

For too long, neighbourhood policing has been neglected and downgraded. That has ended. We are already delivering on our commitments with 13,000 additional neighbourhood policing personnel by the end of the Parliament, backed by £200 million in new funding this year. Alongside this investment, the bill brings in new respect orders. These are to tackle persistent offenders who engage in the antisocial behaviour which blights our town centres. There are enhanced powers to tackle the antisocial use of cars and off road bikes, and the police will now be able to seize these without first having to give a warning.

My everyone should feel safe when they're at work, and this bill delivers stronger action to protect shop workers. Assaulting a shop worker will be a bespoke criminal offence, with a presumption that the courts will, on conviction, impose a criminal behaviour order on offenders. We are also repealing the provision that treats low value shop theft as a minor offence. Shoplifting is not mine and my Lords, and we are sending a clear message that all shop theft should be taken seriously.

Yes, I know both these measures will be particularly welcomed by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Part two of the bill brings in Ronan's law. We are clamping down on dangerous knives and weapons in our streets by introducing a duty on retailers to report bulk sales of knives and offensive weapons, increasing the maximum penalty for offences relating to the sale of knives to children and strengthening the age verification requirements for the online sale and delivery of bladed products and crossbows.

We are also delivering on our manifesto commitment to hold senior managers of online platforms personally liable for failure to take action to remove illegal content relating to knives and offensive weapons. I turn now, my Lords, to violence against women and children. The prevalence of violence and abuse against women and children defiles our society. We need more effective enforcement, action against perpetrators and better protection for victims. To this end, the bill strengthens stalking protection orders and the management of registered sex offenders, including preventing them from changing their names on official identity documents where they pose a risk of sexual harm.

The bill also creates a new offence of administering a harmful substance, including by spiking, to make it absolutely clear that such behaviour is illegal and to encourage victims to report such incidents. Recognising how dangerous online material is in perpetuating the growing epidemic of violence against women and girls, we will bring forward amendments in your lordships House to criminalise pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation. And may I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the noble lady, Baroness Burton, for her tireless work, culminating in the Pornography Review, which recommended that action be taken in this area.

Child sexual abuse and exploitation are amongst the most despicable crimes imaginable. It is estimated that half a million children every year experienced some form of child sexual abuse. Alongside the new national inquiry recommended by the noble Lady Baroness Casey. We are pleased to be pressing ahead with the important implementation of some of the key recommendations of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. As a result, the Bill creates a duty to report child sexual abuse backed up by strong criminal sanctions for those who seek to cover up such abuse by preventing or deterring a person from carrying out the duty, it makes grooming a statutory aggravating factor when sentencing, and it removes the three year time limit for civil personal injury claims brought by victims and survivors of child sexual abuse.

Part five of the bill also helps to tackle the rising levels of online child sexual abuse. In particular, the bill provides for new criminal offences to stop and we mean stop. I facilitated child sexual abuse and to hold accountable those who commit or enable these vile crimes. I commend the noble Lady Baroness Kidron for her earlier advocacy of the new child sexual abuse image generator offence my Lord. The bill also provides enhanced protections for children and vulnerable adults against their exploitation for criminal purposes.

First, it provides for a new offence of child criminal exploitation. So where an adult intentionally uses a child to commit to criminal activity and to complement this new offence, the bill also provides for child criminal exploitation prevention orders to help prevent the criminal exploitation of children from occurring. Second, the bill introduces a new offence to tackle the practice of cooking where criminals take over the home of a vulnerable person for the purpose of illegal activity, such as drug dealing.

Thirdly, the bill creates a new offence to combat coerced internal concealment or plugging where children or vulnerable adults are coerced into concealing drugs or other items in their body for criminal purposes, typically as part of a county lines operation. We also recognise how dangerous online material is in perpetuating the growing epidemic of violence against women and girls. We committed in the other place, to criminalising pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation in this bill, and we will shortly bring forward an amendment to that effect.

I turn now to children who are victims of child sexual abuse. As noble Lords will be aware, ten years ago the Street Offences Act 1959 was amended so that the offences of persistent loitering or soliciting in a public place for the purposes of prostitution no longer applied to children. Parliament was right to do that because in doing so, Parliament recognised that children, because they are children involved in such conduct, are not criminals, that they are themselves the victims of sexual exploitation.

I am pleased to say that we will now bring forward amendments in this House to introduce a new disregards and pardon scheme for anyone who, as a child, was convicted or cautioned for these offences. A town I now turn to policing. We will address the need to rebuild trust in policing in some serious and worrying cases. Public confidence has been undermined by atrocious criminality and misconduct by a very small minority of officers. Deterrence and punishment. As such, misconduct is a priority for this government, as indeed it is for the police.

A key strand of the government's Safer Streets mission is to increase public confidence in policing and the wider criminal justice system. Since 2017, the College of Policing has operated a police barred list and advisory list, which ensures that those officers who are dismissed by a police force in England and Wales are prevented from just joining another force. Such individuals have no place in policing. The Bill extends this approach, ensuring that officers dismissed disciplinary proceedings from the National Crime Agency and other specialist police forces cannot be re-employed by another force.

It is vital that the system of police accountability commands the confidence both of the public and the police. As a society, we rely on the professionalism and bravery of firearms officers who put their own lives at risk to keep us all safe. Thankfully, the occasions where the police have to use lethal force in this country are few and far between, but when they do so, it is entirely right that officers are accountable for their actions. But those accountability arrangements must be proportionate, timely and fair to all concerned.

Regrettably, this is currently not the case. So the measures proposed in the bill, we will improve the timeliness and appropriateness of investigations by the Independent Office for Police Conduct and the rights of victims. That said, if firearms officers are charged with offences relating to and committed during their duties that protect them from violent reprisals by establishing a presumption of anonymity in criminal proceedings up to the point of sentence. My Lords, the public rightly wants to see crime solved and offenders brought to justice.

And to do this, the police must have the necessary tools to do their job. So if someone has their mobile phone stolen and the victim can trace its whereabouts, this bill ensures that the police have powers to enter premises quickly if necessary, without a warrant to recover electronically tracked stolen goods. It's also vital that police powers keep in step with the march of technology. In other respects, evidence of criminality is no longer routinely stored on a computer hard drive.

It is instead held remotely in the cloud. This bill clarifies the circumstances in which law enforcement agencies can access such information, subject to strong safeguards, as they investigate offences ranging from child sexual abuse to fraud and terrorism, thereby protecting the public and our borders. The bill also ensures that law enforcement agencies have the necessary powers to combat other forms of technology enabled crime, so we're banning the possession and supply of sim farms safe where there are legitimate uses, such as in broadcasting.

And we're giving the police and others the power to suspend IP addresses and domain names used to commit. Fraud or other serious crimes, such as the so-called pimping websites involved in commercial sexual exploitation. Protests. My Lords, the right to peaceful protest is fundamental to our vibrant democracy. But in facilitating peaceful protest, the police also have a duty to uphold the rights of others, not to be harassed or intimidated, and to go about their daily lives without serious disruption.

The bill ensures that the police have the powers they need to protect places of worship from intimidatory, intimidatory processes, and it also protects specified war and other memorials, including the cenotaph on the statue of Winston Churchill in Parliament Square that have been the target of protest action. A new targeted offence of concealing identity at designated protests will strengthen police powers to require the removal of face coverings at protests, where violence or other criminality either has occurred or is likely to occur.

The precious right to engage in peaceful protest and the equally precious entitlement to freedom of speech does not extend to threatening or abusing others, all the more so whether those being threatened or abused or emergency workers. The law already recognises that racially or religiously motivated threats and abuse should attract tougher penalties, but these currently do not apply where the behaviour takes place in a person's private home. So police, firefighters, ambulance staff when they're attending someone's home, for example, in response to a 909 call, have no choice but to remain and to act.

So the bill closes the loophole in the law so that anyone who threatens or abuses an emergency worker because of their race or their religion within a private dwelling, will be liable for the higher maximum penalties. Such hate crimes would attract. Where the conduct takes place in a public place. I now turn to counter-terrorism. We must also make sure that counter-terrorism powers reflect evolving threats, ensuring that operational and operational partners have the tools they need to keep the public safe.

Part 14 of the bill delivers on several recommendations made by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism legislation, Jonathan Hall KC. He has identified the need for a new diversion order in response to the increasing number of young people who are the subject of counter-terrorism investigations. The Youth Diversion Order provided for in part 14 will be a new civil order which will enable the police to intervene earlier to prevent young people engaging in terrorism and divert them from the criminal justice system.

Finally, my Lords, in addition to the three new measures which the government will be seeking to add to the bill to which I have already referred, we will also be tabling amendments to apply various further provisions in the Bill to Scotland and or Northern Ireland. These amendments are being brought forward at the request of the Scottish Government and the relevant Northern Ireland departments. My Lords, this government was elected to deliver change. Change that will reverse the decline in neighbourhood policing, change that will tackle the epidemic of violence against women and girls, and the epidemic of knife crime.

This bill will help deliver that change by cracking down on antisocial behaviour, making our town centres safer. Building trust in the police and clearing our streets of knives and protecting our children from sexual abuse. Criminal exploitation, online harms and safeguarding women and girls from stalkers and sexual predators. These are the purposes behind this bill, I beg to move.

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Ahead. Questions of this will be now. Read a.
13:05
Lord Davies of Gower Portrait Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)
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Second time. My Lords, it's a pleasure to open

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My Lords, it's a pleasure to open this debate on behalf of His Majesty's. Official Opposition. And it will come as no.

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And it will come as no. Surprise to noble Lords on the government frontbench that we on these benches broadly support this these benches broadly support this Bill. It will be no surprise, because large parts of it are a copy Conservative.

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Government's Criminal Justice. Bill. From the provisions on anti-social behaviour to the new offences of cooking, the duty to report child sexual abuse and the report child sexual abuse and the new protest and public order offences, this government are continuing the work we were doing continuing the work we were doing to. Strengthen the criminal justice system. This is of course very welcome, but it does mean that all

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welcome, but it does mean that all is plain. It does not mean that all is plain sailing. The feeling amongst.

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The feeling amongst. The British public is that crime has been increasing, even though overall rates of crime since 2010 overall rates of crime since 2010 have fallen. The crime survey for England and Wales for the year ending March 2025 shows that there were 9.4 million incidents of headline crime, although this headline crime, although this represents a 7% rise from the previous year. The ONS state that this is entirely due to a 31% this is entirely due to a 31% increase in fraud.

Undoubtedly a significant factor in this overall significant factor in this overall feeling of pessimism is because of the increase in more visible crimes that impact people's daily lives shoplifting, phone theft, graffiti, vandalism, fare evasion, and drug vandalism, fare evasion, and drug use are highly visible crimes that leave people feeling unsafe in their daily lives. Shoplifting, for example, has risen by 20% in the year from 2024 to 2025. The National Police Chiefs Council has pointed to an estimated 1.2 billion shortfall in police funding.

The Chair of the NPCC has said the funding settlement of the spending review will cover little more than police pay rises. Chief Constable Paul Sanford has warned the government will find it incredibly difficult to meet the Neighbourhood Policing pledge with this funding settlement. The Metropolitan Police have already announced they will have to cut 1700 staff, scrap their dedicated anti-social behaviour officers and close down half of the front desks in stations across London. And this strikes at the heart of a wider principle this, this Crime and Policing Bill, which runs to over 200 clauses and over 20 schedules, actually going to reduce crime on the streets of this country.

In some ways it might, but in many others, unless coupled with serious improvements in enforcement and police action, it may very well not. So, turning to the bill, the government has in fact committed three crimes of commission and two crimes of omission in this bill. And I'll start with the crimes of Commission. The government's 2024 election manifesto promise to introduce new respect orders with the aim to stamp out issues such as public drinking and drug use. So the government comes armed with a noble cause.

But all it takes is to that all it takes is to scratch just below the surface to see that these respect orders are little more than smoke and mirrors. What this bill does is to insert a new part before part one of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime Policing Act 2014, created in respect orders. Then it converts what are currently anti-social behaviour injunctions into youth injunctions rather than giving the police, local authorities and the courts tough new powers to tackle anti-social behaviour, as the government claims, there are said simply renaming the currently existing injunctions and creating new orders which are the same in all but name.

The anti-social behaviour injunctions we introduced as part of my Noble friend Baroness May of Maiden Heads efforts to streamline the powers available to authorities to deal with criminal and challenging behaviour. As she noted a Second Reading of that bill under the previous government, Labour government, over nine anti-social behaviour laws were passed, creating 19 separate powers. The Anti-social behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 24 consolidated those into six powers that had a purpose. I cannot see what this government's new respect orders will add to this arsenal.

Secondly, the repeal of section 22 A of the Magistrates Court Act 1980. This provision states that shoplifting of goods with a value of less than £200, or to only be tried summarily in a magistrates court. There has been much, much information. A misinformation about this provision, which was brought forward by the last Conservative government. The Labour manifesto, called this an effective immunity for some shoplifting. The line, which has been parroted by Labour ministers ever since. However, the government's policy paper on the bill, published on Gov.uk calls it perceived immunity, and I think that sums up the bizarre nature of the criticism.

I want to be absolutely clear anyone claiming that trying trying low value shoplifting in a magistrates court is granting criminals immunity is wrong and misleading the public. There is absolutely no reason why theft under £200 cannot be tried summarily. I need not remind the House, full of eminent lawyers, as it is, that a person can still be sentenced for up to six months imprisonment and issued with a fine if found guilty in a summary trial. Six months imprisonment is clearly not immunity.

What it does do is clear the already clogged up crime courts and the place to prosecute more serious cases. That does not mean that thefts of under £200 from shops do not impact on shopkeepers, nor that they should not be investigated. But there is nothing wrong with having a bit more summary justice in this country. It permits cases to be tried and discharge more quickly and more efficiently, rather than risking long and drawn out Crown Court cases that last for months, if not years.

If the police are not investigating such offences, then that is an issue with the operation of policing, not the law. I will now turn to clauses 107 or 108. These were inserted into the bill of report stage and the other place, and as such have not had as much scrutiny, perhaps, as they ought to. The 17th report and the Constitution Committee of your Lordships' House has drawn attention to these clauses for the uncertain scope of the new offences, and the use of highly subjective terminology.

Clause 107 creates a new offence of using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards an emergency worker that is racially or religiously hostile. Clause one of eight creates the offence of using threatening or abusive words or behaviour that are likely to cause an emergency worker harassment, alarm or distress. These offences are very similar to the already existing offences under section four and five of the Public Order Act 1986. The key difference is that these new offences can be committed in a private dwelling, whereas those in the Public Order Act cannot.

And it is understandable why the government might wish to press ahead with these new offences. We all wish to see our emergency workers protected, but it is far from certain that creating two new speech related offences will offer emergency workers any greater protection in reality. Clause 107 involves the criminalisation of insults and clause whatever eight uses the term distress. Both are highly subjective, thereby leaving people open to prosecution on undefined terms. We already know this is an acute problem in this country.

There exists a litany of cases whereby people have been arrested and prosecuted for speech offences. The continual misuse of non hate, non crime, hate incidents and the probably irresponsible policing of tweets and online comments has had a chilling effect on free speech. If anything, we should be reviewing and removing barriers to freedom of expression and speech, not expanding those limitations. I therefore echo the comments of the Constitution Committee in relation to clauses 107 or 8, and calling the government to heed their advice that these clauses should be drawn far more narrowly.

I am sure that much of the debate in this bill will comprise of what noble Lords deemed to be omissions and missed opportunities, and I have time to only mention a few of those. But I do give notice to the noble Lord, the Minister, that at committee stage I will be rising, raising many more. Given that this bill in many ways mirrors the previous government's Criminal Justice bill, it was surprising to see that there has been no inclusion bar two clauses of the measures surrounding the replacement of the Vagrancy Act, the previous government plan to repeal the act and replace it with a new framework around nuisance, begging and rough sleeping.

If the government are to commence the repeal of the Vacancy Act, but not institute further powers to replace that act, there may be a gap in law. I would appreciate it if the Minister could perhaps comment on why the government have not included these measures in the bill. Furthermore, it does not include the previous government's plans to impose tougher penalties on those convicted of shoplifting offences on more than three occasions. Those provisions would require the court to impose a community order, including a curfew, exclusion or electronic whereabouts monitoring condition or a combination of such conditions.

Given them the government's tough talk and bearing down on retail crime, it is more than a little confusing why they have not included such measures in the bill. So I will end where I began. Criminal justice is not simply about laws this Parliament passes. We can continually create new criminal offences. We can pass as many new laws as we like, but until we get a grip on the enforcement of those laws, we will never tackle the scourge of criminality. The government has been talking tough on crime, but this must now be met with corresponding action.

corresponding action.
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Baroness Doocey Portrait Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and I am grateful to the many organisations who provided briefings in too many areas of crime and policing were failing. The people who most need protection. Children and vulnerable

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adults exposed to predators, shopkeepers bearing the cost of unchecked theft. Farmers shouldering the.

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Farmers shouldering the. Consequences of criminals stealing expensive. Farm equipment to order.

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Billion in policing. This year. The reality is that little of this will reach frontline little of this will reach frontline services. The National Police Chiefs Council notes that a quarter of this sum will be returned to the Treasury

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sum will be returned to the Treasury Insurance. With the rest already committed to fund pay, awards.

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to fund pay, awards. And service debts. Because a. Decade of. Underfunding has forced police to borrow. Just to.

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Just to. Maintain their. Dilapidated buildings. And antiquated. It already.

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And antiquated. It already. Gaps in children's services, police.

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Into roles they are. Ill equipped to fill. So in scrutinising this bill. Will have to scrutinising this bill. Will have to ensure that we do not set the police up to fail. Take drug testing.

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The bill expands the range of triggers for police. To be able to trust someone for drugs. But makes no provision.

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drugs. But makes no provision. At all for more drug testing centres. Or forensic resources.

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Or forensic resources. That must. Change because drugs. Are deeply intertwined with serious violence.

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serious violence. And linked to more than. Half. Of all homicides. Drug related deaths. Have doubled since.

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Have doubled since. 2012, and about. 70% of. Thefts. And cases of domestic violence.

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And cases of domestic violence. Are driven by addiction. Yet more.

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Yet more. Than. 27,000 suspected drug. investigation.

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investigation. Largely because we. Lack enough. Trained forensic specialists. If these delays and.

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these delays and. The patchy availability of treatment programmes. Are not addressed.

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The measures in the bill will become irrelevant. In a similar. Vein, there are a number of.

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Vein, there are a number of. Provisions in the bill that are welcome in principle. But need. Careful scrutiny in practice.

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Careful scrutiny in practice. Among those are new offences such as. Assaulting retail. Workers and the proposed.

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Workers and the proposed. Respect to orders, which, while well-intentioned, risk duplicating existing. Laws and further.

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Straining a justice system already operating. Way beyond capacity.

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Way beyond capacity. My Lords, Liberal Democrats have long argued that neighbourhood. Policing is the most.

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Effective way to address these. Problems before. They take root. The role of local officers is

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crucial. They know. Where the domestic. kids. Are left home alone, and they

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Are left home alone, and they know where the drug dens operate. And effective.

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Neighbourhood policing depends on familiarity, consistency and. Trust. Qualities that can only be built up over time.

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up over time. We cannot keep. Parachuting in. New officers and expect these

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New officers and expect these relationships to flourish. That is why we have proposed legal minimum

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policing. Teams are maintained at the level necessary. To sustain long. Relationships and.

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Relationships and. A sense. Of safety among communities. That

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sense of safety is especially. Important for young people. At the moment, 1. In.

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In. 3 young people. Report that they don't feel safe in their communities, the dangerous and

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often. Tragic result. Is that they carry weapons. We therefore backed proposals. To.

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Tighten the rules around the online sale and delivery of weapons,

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and we will bring forward amendments to give legislative. Life to even more.

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Of the claimant. Review's recommendations. I now want. To turn to police and criminal justice reform.

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justice reform. Very few people realise. That 90%, yes. 90% of crime is

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That 90%, yes. 90% of crime is now digitally enabled. That means. Chief constables must be given

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Chief constables must be given the. Flexibility to. Decide the right. Mix of. Traditional police officers. And.

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Specialist staff needed in their. Forces. Because digital skill is. Very. Often now.

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Often now. More highly. Valued than. Physical prowess, and recruitment should reflect that.

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should reflect that. Meanwhile, training has to move with the times. A third of.

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A third of. All police officers now have. Under five years experience.

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Under five years experience. Yet inspection after inspection exposes serious. Flaws in the training provided

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Flaws in the training provided poor professional development, combined with infrequent. Updates on new. Laws.

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Laws. And procedures, mean many. Frontline officers have outdated skills. Leading to.

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Uneven standards and a workforce that lacks the. Confidence to use their powers.

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Confidence to use their powers. With 94% of reported offences, UN's unresolved new. Laws mean little.

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Laws mean little. If officers aren't equipped. To enforce them. So we.

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So we. Will push for the first national review of Police. Training since

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review of Police. Training since 2018. But reforming. Policing alone. Is like fixing the lock on a door that's completely rotten.

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that's completely rotten. It simply beggars belief. That at the end.

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Of March 2025, there were 310,000. Cases outstanding in magistrates courts.

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magistrates courts. That serious offences such as rape. Are taking more. Than two.

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Years to come to trial. With offenders. Back out on the streets on bail,

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Back out on the streets on bail, perpetrators. Who are convicted of crime. Often pass through prisons.

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Often pass through prisons. Without any kind of rehabilitation. Now, let me

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rehabilitation. Now, let me highlight some serious concerns on civil liberties. In clause 138. The move.

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The move. To give police. Automatic access to driving licence data for any law enforcement

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purpose, not just driving. Offences, marks a major expansion

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Offences, marks a major expansion from current practice. The Home Secretary need only consult police with no full parliamentary oversight with no full parliamentary oversight when drafting these regulations. While the bill does not mention

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facial recognition, other ministers. Say there are no. Plans to use DVLA. Data this way.

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Plans to use DVLA. Data this way. The National Police Chiefs Council, in a written submission to the Home Affairs Committee, stated that Affairs Committee, stated that police chiefs are seeking access to the DVLA database for facial the DVLA database for facial recognition searches and proposals by the previous government would by the previous government would have enabled this. To do this would put more than 50 million innocent people in a perpetual digital line up. This poses profound risks, particularly for people.



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particularly for people. Of colour. And minority groups. In 1923, in

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And minority groups. In 1923, in the UK, Big Brother Watch found that 89% of police facial recognition alerts wrongly identified members of the public as people of interest. So we will vigorously press the government to ensure DVLA access is necessary, proportionate and set out clearly in primary legislation restricted to tackling serious crime or public safety threats. And it is not just about facial recognition, but a whole range of biometrics, some of which are only now in development.

I am particularly concerned about the need to futureproof the bill against tomorrow's technologies. New digital tools such as remote data extraction, advanced surveillance systems, predictive analytics and

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wearable sensor technology. Will. Soon reach the UK market. The

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Soon reach the UK market. The bill must be capable of evolving this technology, ensuring that this technology, ensuring that perpetrator protections for citizens remain robust as new digital tools remain robust as new digital tools appear. In conclusion, public confidence in policing is at an all confidence in policing is at an all time low. This may not be fair. I don't think it is, but it is the don't think it is, but it is the reality. New duties imposed by Parliament must therefore be matched by new investment.

We must deliver policing that keeps people safe without edging towards a without edging towards a surveillance state. This bill gives us a great opportunity to strike us a great opportunity to strike that balance. But more power without resources or safeguards risks serious consequences. So let us ensure this bill empowers the police, protects freedom, and police, protects freedom, and prepares the service for a fast moving technological world. Because

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moving technological world. Because only then will it truly deliver safer communities. There. Yeah.

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There. Yeah. And my Lords, I. Rise to. Broadly support the Bill. I think there's an awful lot in it that is to be commended. I, I wouldn't agree with everything that the Liberal Democrats have said about access to
13:25
Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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more data and certainly not facial recognition, but I think there's some steps in the right direction. But of course, the nature of the But of course, the nature of the Second Reading is to highlight the things that you would have preferred were in it, rather than probably the things that are in it. My first things that are in it. My first point is going to be about the missed opportunity I generally feel to set out a strategic direction, to set out a strategic direction, partly for the criminal justice system and certainly for the police.

We've not embedded anything about We've not embedded anything about prevention as a strategic direction in the way that the fire brigades have. Now, we've not said anything have. Now, we've not said anything much about police professionalism and how that might be developed. And finally, the use of technology and finally, the use of technology and how we set a strategic framework in which that will develop. So that, I think, is a genuine missed think, is a genuine missed opportunity. The four areas that I just want to highlight that I will be pushing in committee stage for some recognition now, first is around firearms officers.

First of around firearms officers. First of all, I acknowledge that the developments around the anonymity of officers is welcome, although I confess that on occasions I have confess that on occasions I have thought that actually this should be named because accountability is very important. But I think this important. But I think this development is a good one and I support it. But this group of brave support it. But this group of brave men and women who 3500 of them, who protect 69 million of us, and the only ones who can go forward on our behalf and deal with the people they have to deal with, I'm afraid, are moment.



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This week alone, the officer in the case who shot and killed the case who shot and killed Jermaine Baker in 2015 this week was told he had no case to answer in a misconduct process. Ten years. Never misconduct process. Ten years. Never a risk of a criminal charge. But ten years later, that can't be right. So it's something about timeliness. And it's something about timeliness. And but I would also say the law ought to of a more generous generosity and to of a more generous generosity and sympathy to the officer in the first place.

We do that for householders who protect themselves and kill. who protect themselves and kill. Someone in their home. They are a unique group. So was this unique

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group got not got any similar protection, which is. A. Higher bar before prosecution is considered, not immunity. No one considered, not immunity. No one argues that accountability is essential, but I really think something has got to happen in this area.

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area. And as yet, it hasn't. My second area is around cycling. Now I'm trying to get some amendments into this bill, because I think it's time that cyclists had

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think it's time that cyclists had more accountability to and. Ensured an insurance wouldn't. Be a bad idea. The opportunity to.

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The opportunity to. Have points on their. Licences if they have. commit. Offences.

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Registration marks to identify them. And even licences for the people who ride them. The public bill's who ride them. The public bill's office told me it's out of scope. I can't understand this because obviously there are amendments about

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obviously there are amendments about dangerous cycling. Which the. Government has brought forward, which I support. But it'd be no use having those amendments if you can't

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identify. The person who did it. So I suggest that there is a possibility to consider future developments in this bill. My third point is around.

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point is around. The suicide of police officers. The Police Federation are concerned that the number of people, police officers and staff who are police officers and staff who are committing suicide over the years is increasing. Now is real difficult to get hold of the data either about get hold of the data either about those who have committed suicide or those who have attempted it. The recently had a survey in which only recently had a survey in which only 41 forces and replied to the biggest force in the country, but the biggest did not reply.

So they're biggest did not reply. So they're struggling to get hold of the data, so they would like to see a legal duty to ensure that this data is, first of all, collected to see if there's a problem. What is it, how big is it and where the themes are big is it and where the themes are that might enable more prevention to take place. And my final point is take place. And my final point is just about the indirect consequences of historical weapons around offensive weapons.

Lord Lucas has

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done some work around this. But I think there's more to. Do to make sure that people who

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have. Historical weapons are not captured in the offensive weapon debate, and also the couriers who. Carry these things are now.

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Carry these things are now. Withdrawn from the market, meaning that there's very few people who are carrying out neither weapons or things like. Scissors.

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Scissors. Which means that we. Will have. A real problem soon if we don't consider that.

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Indirect impact. My Lords, I commend this government's mission to achieve safer streets and applaud, particularly the aim of halving both particularly the aim of halving both knife crime and violence against women and girls within a decade. This bill touches on a wide range of complex and important issues, and I want to just raise a few here. want to just raise a few here. Reporting of Charles sexual abuse and the decriminalisation of and the decriminalisation of abortion are of particular interest to my colleagues on these benches.

Indeed, noble Lords may have seen Indeed, noble Lords may have seen the church's statement in response to the debate in the other place on the decriminalisation of women the decriminalisation of women seeking abortion. Fundamental reform to this country's abortion laws to this country's abortion laws ought to merit its own parliamentary process, we would say. And we on
13:30
Lord Bishop of Derby Portrait The Lord Bishop of Derby (Bishops)
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these benches are keen to continue engaging with government to ensure care filled, careful consideration care filled, careful consideration is given to support all those facing such a painful decision. I declare such a painful decision. I declare interest as Chair of the Board of Trustees at the Children's Society, and I am proud of their unwavering and I am proud of their unwavering commitment to protect children from harm, including child sexual abuse, harm, including child sexual abuse, and to enable them to flourish.

I am pleased that the bill includes a standalone offence of trial child criminal exploitation, CCTV and I welcome the government's commitment welcome the government's commitment to define CCE for police, but also support calls to bring forward a statutory definition of CCS e on the face of the bill that's directed at all organisations supporting children to be supported by a children to be supported by a robust, comprehensive implementation package with adequate funding and training. I note that the bill before us risks criminalising children forced or coerced into criminal activity.

I think we need to take care that children are to take care that children are exempted in the work of this bill from any offence of commissioning, cooking or coerced internal concealment, recognising here as elsewhere, children as victims, not perpetrators. The Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Gloucester, is also following this bill and is unable to be here today with her. I would make the case for recognising so-called honour base abuse as an aggravating factor in sentencing, introducing a new offence where victims die of suicide following sustained patterns of coercive control and abuse.

Statutory defences for victims and survivors of domestic abuse who are accused of offending and removing parental rights of individuals convicted of child sexual offences. We have been reminded today that recent terrible events mean many are fearful when approaching a place of worship, or indeed going about their everyday lives. The Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Manchester, who can't be in his place today, wishes to engage with the elements of this Bill, offering practical guidance for police both to enable expressions of public protest while also preventing intimidation and harassment.

He also looks forward to working with noble Lords to ensure that this bill offers stronger safeguards against the discriminatory treatment of Romani, Gypsy, Roma and Irish Travellers. Noble Lords will be aware that the Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Sheffield, has recently been nominated to Chair the Orgreave Inquiry into the events of the 18th of June, 1984. My colleagues on these benches and I will continue to engage the government on public order policing measures. Finally, I welcome the principle of youth diversion orders for those under 2022.

This bill will need to strike a delicate balance. Overzealous restrictions on movement and social contacts under such orders may lead to yet more disenfranchisement and distrust. My Lord, this is a challenging time and the obstacles are real, and I therefore commit myself and those on these benches to work with the noble laws, to think

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creatively, compassionately and constructively in our collective scrutiny of this bill. Then,

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Then. My Lords. Yet again, we are being. Asked to.

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Digest a lengthy Criminal Justice Bill, which covers far too many diverse areas of conduct. A

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diverse areas of conduct. A bill. Has no theme. Before the bill began its progress through the other place, the government proclaimed that it contained 35 headline measures and contained 35 headline measures and Andy Slaughter, the chairman of the Justice Select Committee, said the
13:34
Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier (Conservative)
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bill introduces 27 new criminal offences. I think he was congratulating the government. Had I been discussing the Criminal Justice Bill, that's to say the bill that my Noble friend Lord Davis referred to, which fell at the last election, I would have I would have said of that what I now say of this bill, it covers too many subjects. It makes criminal activities that are already criminal. It has 430 pages. It has. 203 clauses in 21 schedules. Let's look at it.

It's like a telephone book.

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It's a catalogue, in. My view, of early day motions rather than a practical answer to rather than a practical answer to the problems it seeks to identify. It reminds me of the Criminal Justice Act 2009, which included Justice Act 2009, which included provisions, amongst other things, for the appointment of senior police officers, prostitution and lap officers, prostitution and lap dancing. The supply of alcohol to children, gang related violence, aviation security, border controls and expedition. But more besides. Many of the measures in this bill, Many of the measures in this bill, I'm sure are on their face.

Were they, and assuming they're not already criminal offences? No doubt a good measures taken from the Criminal Justice Bill. But passing Criminal Justice Bill. But passing laws is not of itself a solution to an actual or perceived problem. an actual or perceived problem. Movement is not productivity. Too often, governments of all political persuasions think that the sun, that persuasions think that the sun, that standing vigorous is a substitute standing vigorous is a substitute for action. Between 1815 and 1914, remarkably few laws, about 15 or 20 statutes were passed that affected statutes were passed that affected the criminal law.

Several of them are still in force, in whole or in are still in force, in whole or in part. When Tony Blair was Prime Minister between 1997 and 2007, over 50 criminal law statutes were enacted. The Criminal Justice Act of 2003, another doorstop of a bill, even repealed earlier sections of earlier Acts of Parliament passed after 1997, which hadn't even been implemented. I would ask written questions in the other place asking how many criminal law provisions had been implemented, how many had been repealed before implementation, and how many had been brought into force.

And the answer I used to get with roughly one third had been implemented, one third had not been implemented, and one third had been repealed before implementation or soon afterwards. Now, I'm not making a politically antagonistic point. I'm simply pointing out that the early 21st century legislative equivalent of dreadnought building is ineffective unless the government, any government, does more than pass laws and pat itself on the back. The court system is under strain. The police are under strain, our prisons are under strain.

And yet we blithely pile more and often repetitive legislation on them for political effect, without calculating whether the new provisions already exist or can be managed within the present creaking criminal justice system. The Lord Chancellor recently had promised 1250 new Crown Court sitting days, with the Crown Court trial backlog leading to serious criminal trials now being scheduled for 2028 or 2029. And with literally hundreds of courtrooms unused, 1250 additional days is insignificant. A senior Crown Court judge recently told me that he could use those days in just his own court centre.

The Home Secretary's Second Reading speech in the other place in March amounted, if I may say so, to empty jargon interrupted by loyal backbenchers reading out interventions drafted by her spouse or by government whips and by the opposition, complaining she was ignoring the previous government's achievements or claiming that they were her own. This is not a satisfactory way to amend the law, still less create new laws. Of course, my Lords, this bill will either in this version or some other version of it, pass into law and the government will proclaim its enactment as one of its great achievements at the next election.

In the meanwhile, the IP scandal continues despite the heroic efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Timpson and other noble lords from across the House to release the ghastly grip of its talons around the lives and hopes of those hundreds of prisoners still in prison well beyond their tariff. My Lords, governments and ministers say a lot. The voters

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watch carefully and remember what they actually do. Lords. As.

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My. Noble friend, the Minister has so clearly set out, there is much to
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Portrait Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)
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clearly set out, there is much to welcome in this bill to improve the law where needed to make us safer, and I look forward to following it.

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Closely. And to the noble Lord, Lord Garnier. I would say. That. I also. Look.

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Look. implementation. When it. Is an act. It will have a.

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It will have a. Profound impact on the lives of many, including the most. Vulnerable. And I. Particularly support the clauses

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Particularly support the clauses relating to counter violence against children, women and girls. Following children, women and girls. Following the report of the Independent Inquiry. Into Child. Sexual Abuse,

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Inquiry. Into Child. Sexual Abuse, of. Time limitations in. Historical cases of child sex.

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Historical cases of child sex. Sexual abuse with clause 82. The importance. Of this clause was brought home

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Of this clause was brought home to me by a very courageous survivor who, following years of sexual abuse

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who, following years of sexual abuse incapacitating. Mental illness. Of which the origin. Was. That trauma.

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That trauma. The last government. Refused to act on this specific issue, so I am proud that this government has. Conceded the

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government has. Conceded the fundamental legal principle. However, as. Drafted. It. Has limited benefit to those.

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Has limited benefit to those. Who have fought for the change and whose. fight. And.

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And. I would ask the noble Baroness, the Minister. To discuss this. With. Me further. Together with survivors.

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The IX recommendation. Should be adopted. Without change. Or qualification. However, the

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Or qualification. However, the clause adds a new substantial prejudice to historical cases. Which creates.

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Which creates. hurdle. For survivors. As I. Understand it, the IX's.

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Understand it, the IX's. Final report did not include any changes regarding. The introduction.

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The introduction. Of the substantial prejudice. Its inclusion in this. Bill could.

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Be interpreted. As reintroducing the. Status quo. The impact of narrowing the court's focus.

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court's focus. Focus to a fair trial with the burden on defendants. Should make. overall.

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overall. But ambiguity. Remains around. What. Counts. As count as claims

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Counts. As count as claims arising. Subsection three B and three C of. Section 11ZB. In clause. 82 of

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Section 11ZB. In clause. 82 of the Crime and Policing Bill introduced the novel legal idea of introduced the novel legal idea of substantial prejudice adopted from Scottish legislation, but the sub clauses are.

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Unjustified as there is no provision for real litigation in these cases in England and Wales. I would suggest that.

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would suggest that. If cases fail in civil courts, the legislation has. Failed. In its aims and. These subsections should.

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Be removed. The testimony. Of witnesses. To the ICA.

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To the ICA. Shows institutional. Discouragement and the extended, often ineradicable psychological.

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often ineradicable psychological. Harm of. Abuse, underscoring the need for these reforms to remove barriers.

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One witness. Said to me, and I quote. Attending the ICA was. The second most dramatic.

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The second most dramatic. Thing in my. lasted. Seven years. So far.

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So far. If subsection three b and subsection. Three c remain, then preparing

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for a court case which could be dismissed on these grounds would be as dramatic. As.

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That, and with as little personal benefit. End of quote. While survivors are relieved that through. This.

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This. in. abuse. Will be abolished for better

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Will be abolished for better access to justice. The substantial. need. To be deleted.

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To be deleted. My Lords. The clauses on the management of. Sex offenders. Are. Hugely important for the victims of violence against women and girls,

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of violence against women and girls, and with the long term interest in government. Is both.

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Seeking to implement its manifesto commitments and to respond to the invaluable super. Complaint made by the. Suzy

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Lamplugh Trust. Following concerned. I wish will wish to probe.

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I wish will wish to probe. Chapter six. campaigning. On.

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Doorsteps that the new offence of cooking will be. Of great. Benefit. Especially to those living in.

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Especially to those living in. Social housing. Finally, I wholeheartedly support clause 191. On the removal of women from the.

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On the removal of women from the. Criminal law related. To abortion. And I pay tribute to my colleague Tanya.

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Until the LSC. My Lords, I will focus on

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My Lords, I will focus on disorder in public places and spaces, which is having such a detrimental effect on our lives. And detrimental effect on our lives. And in doing so, I will concentrate on clauses 37 and 38 of the bill, which clauses 37 and 38 of the bill, which create a new standalone offence of assault against a retail worker and assault against a retail worker and build on the aggravated offence contained in the police, crime, contained in the police, crime, Sentencing and Courts Act of 2022.

Now I support the new measures. Now I support the new measures. Those two new measures in this bill, I want to see violence against someone doing their job dealt with someone doing their job dealt with seriously. No one should be subject to random attacks whilst at work. And I should declare as a vice Chair of the customer service All-party group. I do not want people who care deeply about giving great customer service to leave their jobs or to deter anyone from taking up this kind of employment, which is both essential and valuable to us in so many ways.

And I will say more about how in a moment. But first, the Institute for Customer Services tracking survey shows violent abuse against all frontline service workers continues to rise. That means public transport workers, those who work in the hospitality, training, people who work in post offices and banks, delivery drivers and even utility engineers working on the streets. That is why the aggravated offence in the 22 Crime Act covers anyone, not just retail staff, providing a public facing service or doing a public facing job.

So can I ask the minister when he comes to wind up, why this bill's stronger? Measures only cover retail workers? My Lords, all the people who do these public facing jobs matter not just because we need the services they provide. They matter because more often than not, they are the responsible person in charge of public spaces and places. So they don't just need protection, they need our support to uphold our common standards, which are so important to maintain good order, and a civil society, which means we must show respect for the authority of their roles in public settings, whether that's authority, whether their authority in such situations is formal or informal.

And we need to give the people who do these jobs the recognition they deserve. So they discharge their responsibilities well. My Lords, if we are to prevent violent criminal behaviour in public spaces becoming normalised, we must work together to tackle the low levels of disorder and disrespect that we see on our streets, on public transport, in shops and elsewhere, which causes to feel so despondent, litter dropping feet on seats, watching videos or listening to music on our phones without headphones, queue jumping fare dodging graffiti, police presence on our streets is important.

Rapid response from the police to actual crimes is vital that we can't keep creating new
13:46
Baroness Stowell of Beeston Portrait Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Conservative)
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criminal offences and expect the police to deal with everything that has gone wrong in society. We as has gone wrong in society. We as leaders, whether political, religious, business, public service religious, business, public service or union, must use our authority to set, promote and honour the standards we know are vital for a standards we know are vital for a healthy society, yet too often now treat as unimportant. My Lords, I treat as unimportant. My Lords, I would support expanding clauses 37 and 38 to more than just retail and 38 to more than just retail workers for the reasons I have given.

But I would ask all the businesses, unions and trade bodies who understandably want more legal protection for their workers to think about what I've said. think about what I've said. Likewise, we as legislators must do more than the easy bit of making new more than the easy bit of making new laws. As my Noble friend Lord Garnier said, tackling crime and disorder through better policing and disorder through better policing and stronger sentencing is important, but on its own it's not enough. We but on its own it's not enough.

We need to share and promote what the good citizens of this country want and expect from each other in our and expect from each other in our shared spaces. That's how we will create the right conditions for people to support each other, and together make it harder for people to behave badly and do wrong.

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Yeah. My Lords. This bill has the.

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Potential to transform how we protect children from the devastating. Crime of. Child sexual abuse.

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Child sexual abuse. So I welcome mandatory reporting. It will be a historic step made
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Baroness Benjamin Portrait Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)
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It will be a historic step made possible thanks to the survivors who bravely shared their testimony to the Independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. Too many children have been failed because adults in positions of trust and institutions who employed them protected themselves over children who needed it. But I fear that mandatory reporting will not be enough to create the culture of safeguarding this country so desperately needs. All those who work with children, teachers, healthcare or social workers have responsibility in keeping children safe from harm, but they must feel confident and have the skills to do so.

But in 2020, the National Review into Child Sexual Abuse in Family Environment highlighted that many practitioners lacked the knowledge, skill and confidence to talk about sexual abuse with children. That is why Barnardo's and I declare an interest as Vice president, and many other children's charities are calling for the introduction of clear guidance and training to accompany this essential new duty. Mandated reporters must be confident in their responsibilities and clear on what they should do if they suspect abuse.

So training will support professionals to identify and act on the signs and symptoms of abuse, as well as to respond effectively. In cases where children do disclose or we risk more children falling through the cracks and abuse go unrecognised. My Lords, there must also be accountability for both professional and civil mandated reporters who fail to report, as well as criminal convictions for any individual or institution that deliberately conceal the abuse. The Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, which was hosted by Barnardos, has highlighted how such cover ups have only served to increase a survivor's sense of betrayal.

Never again should institutions be allowed to put their reputation ahead of the safety of a child. They must be held accountable for failures to protect children, whether due to concealment or poor safeguarding, or a lack of proper recruitment and training. This duty must be backed by a strong inspection regime, so that children are never again left unprotected by systemic failure. My Lords, protecting children is now more vital than ever, both offline and online. This means ensuring that the messages and images that shape young people's understanding of relationships and content are not harmful.

The BBFC found that 1 in 3 pornographic pornographic users had seen violent and abusive content online on numerous occasions. A poll by the Children's Commissioner found that 44% of young people had viewed material online, which portrayed sexual violence as normal. Content involving strangulation, incest and, worryingly, adults dressed as children, as well as content involving trafficking and torture, is rightly illegal offline. Yet these images and videos are widely accessible online. This inconsistency is harmful, especially to children, and many find themselves victims.

My Lords, in 2023, during the Online Safety Bill, I raised the extremely concerning issue that the laws on pornography are regulated differently offline from what is permitted online. Baroness Burton's independent review creating a safer world the challenge of regulating online pornography, which I strongly support, is now also calling for online pornography to be regulated in line with with offline pornography. If we do not act, we risk legitimising a culture where children continue to be sexualised and young people grow up with distorted understanding of healthy relationships.

My Lords, no child should grow up in a world where abuse is normalised or their safety is undermined for profit. So let us. So let us ensure that every child's lifetime is free from abuse, fear and silence. Because childhood

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last a lifetime. Yeah, never. It's almost. Absurdly challenging. To.

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To. Try and speak on a bill. Of 427 pages, 203.

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minutes. The bill is. Extremely wide. It ranges.

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creating. Multiple new criminal offences, and we will need. To determine.

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To determine. Inter alia, whether they have sufficient clarity, whether they are, whether they disproportionately

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are, whether they disproportionately limit our fundamental freedoms. Whether they may. Lead to unintended consequences.
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Baroness O'Loan Portrait Baroness O'Loan (Crossbench)
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Lead to unintended consequences. Clause 1853 is a case in. Point, and we will need to consider the very real resource implications of what we propose. My Lords, I want to concentrate on clause 191, though there are many others I want to talk to. This clause was passed after only 46 minutes of backbench debate in the

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other place. It was not a manifesto commitment. It constitutes. A. Very significant change to our

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Very significant change to our law on abortion. It carries with it enormous. Risks to women who might consequently think that aborting a consequently think that aborting a baby up to birth will be safe in these circumstances, doing so these circumstances, doing so without medical help. Doctor Caroline Johnson simply explained in the Other Place that she works as an the Other Place that she works as an NHS consultant paediatrician and has cared for and held babies in her

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cared for and held babies in her hands from 21 weeks and six. Days gestation. Right through to term. She said I am.

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She said I am. Very aware that babies from, say, 30 weeks upwards have a more than 98% chance of survival. She went on 98% chance of survival. She went on to explain how an abortion is achieved in the later stages of pregnancy, saying that taking

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pregnancy, saying that taking abortion pills intended for early pregnancy are not a suitable or safe medical intervention in. Later pregnancy.

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Later pregnancy. She said if one has a termination later in pregnancy, it is done by later in pregnancy, it is done by foeticide, essentially, an injection of potassium chloride is administered to kill the baby, and administered to kill the baby, and then the baby is born in the usual way, but deceased. That is why it is important to know what the gestation important to know what the gestation is, because the termination offered under the law is done by different routes to make sure that it is done safely.

We know that later in pregnancy, a termination happens the more a woman is at risk of medical complications. My Lords, I think that's the essence of the challenge we face here today. We must agree to find out a clause which, under current law, would enable a woman

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who has secured medication to end a pregnancy under the pills by post scheme, which are supposed. To get used only.

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Up to ten weeks. To take. This medication in a non-clinical setting right up to birth, where she setting right up to birth, where she would have no professional medical support despite the fact, as Johnson says, that she is in greater risk of complications. The clause does not give her any protection other than that against prosecution. But prosecution is the least important issue here. What is profoundly important is the woman's safety. Even at earlier stages of gestation, there may be need for surgical there may be need for surgical intervention to remove a dead baby.

How might a woman achieve abortion Essentially.

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As. I understand it, it will be by taking abortive patient medication which is neither suitable nor safe, or by acquiring potassium chloride by some means. But how could the potassium chloride be administered? It has to be injected into the baby's heart, using ultrasound baby's heart, using ultrasound guidance to cause cod cardiac arrest and death to the baby. And that's and death to the baby. And that's not the end of the process. The baby must be delivered now. During childbirth, specific drugs are childbirth, specific drugs are administered and offered for pain management.

Prevention of things like haemorrhage and other complications. None of these would

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be available to this mother. My Lords, most women who have. Experienced miscarriage.

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Experienced miscarriage. Or childbirth will probably agree that if proper medical help is not available, it is terrifying. Things available, it is terrifying. Things can go so terribly wrong. Babies can get stuck in the birth canal, which get stuck in the birth canal, which will eventually lead to the need for an intervention, whether by caesarean section, forceps or vacuum caesarean section, forceps or vacuum extraction. There is a serious risk that a mother whose baby gets stuck may die if the baby is not removed.

At the very least, she may suffer terrible pain or multiple serious terrible pain or multiple serious consequences to her own health and to her future child bearing capacity. We are left, then, in a capacity. We are left, then, in a situation in which your lordships are being asked to legislate for abortion to birth without medical help, because any medical practitioner who helped her would be subject to prosecution. My lords of

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this provision is past. Women will. Think that aborting. Their. Own babies will be a safe thing

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Own babies will be a safe thing to do, simply because it's lawful. This clause is redolent with danger to women. Can the noble Lord the to women. Can the noble Lord the Minister tell us exactly what government thinks women might seek to? How women might seek to end a to? How women might seek to end a full term pregnancy, and how they might be protected against the potentially catastrophic consequences of aborting and delivering a baby without medical

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help. My Lords, this clause is too. Dangerous to. Women to remain in.

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The bed.

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The bed. My Lords, the policing Bill stands as an important framework for stands as an important framework for how we as a society respond to acts that cause harm and undermines our
13:58
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon Portrait Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Labour)
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that cause harm and undermines our shared values. Among its many provisions, one issue demands our urgent attention the failure to treat racist comments and abuse as crime when it goes unreported or unchallenged, when racist comments are dismissed as harmless or just words. Their impact is and is underestimated. In underestimated. In truth, silence allows prejudice to grow, community subjects to racism feels unsafe, unheard and excluded. This erodes trust, aroused trust not only between neighbours, but also between the public and the institution meant to protect them.

If racist acts are not reported and address, they normalise intolerance, creating an environment where discrimination can escalate into more serious violence, like the racist murder of my son Stephen. I don't want to see this repeated in years to come, and families are forced to go through what many families have gone of gone through during the past, during, gone through. Sorry. My family has gone through during the past 30 years. Plus, there's been an increase in knife crime since Stephen's death.

This needs to be addressed with urgency to stop parents like myself continue to suffer the trauma of continue to suffer the trauma of losing our child. When a racist behaviour is recognised and reported and challenge. It sends a powerful message to everyone, regardless of their background belongs and their background belongs and deserve protection under the law. Within the school environment, racist, racist name calling must, must, must never be ignored as it can escalate into more serious form of harm and violence.

If such behaviour is not addressed early and documented properly. This risk developing into more dangerous attitudes and action as individuals grow older. The Crime and Policing Bill must therefore ensure robust measures that empowers individuals to report racism, support victims and hold perpetrators accountable. Only then we can strengthen the community cohesion and safeguard the dignity and the equality that are funded, that are the foundation of our society. For these reasons, I firmly believe that the abolition of the non crime hate incidents should not be perceived as doing so would risk silencing victims, undermining trust in law and law enforcement.

And we can ask collective ability to confront and prevent hate hate in all its forms. I also want to thank the government for their commitment in addressing crime on our streets.

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I and my Lords. This is a very large bill. As my.

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Noble friend Lord Garnier. Said, it is. Too large. But for. Present. Purposes I am going to

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focus exclusively. On clause. 191. Which is the clause which allows

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Which is the clause which allows a mother to abort an unborn child. Right up to the. Moment. Of birth.

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Of birth. My Lord, I believe. That this. Clause is wrong in. Principle and should be removed.

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From the bill. Your Lordships. Will note that this particular provision.

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provision. Was incorporated into. The. parliamentary.

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Process at report. The debate. Lasted for some. Two hours. So far as. I'm aware.

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I'm aware. There was no. Pre statutory consultation. Now, I've always taken.

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Now, I've always taken. A. Very libertarian. View on abortion. I am a strong supporter.

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supporter. Of the 1967 act. I agree. That abortion raises serious
14:02
Viscount Hailsham Portrait Viscount Hailsham (Conservative)
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That abortion raises serious issues of. Morals and faith. But I've always taken the view that. That is a matter. For the mother.

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For the mother. And on the. Whole. Not for Parliament. However.

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Clause 191. Goes far.

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Too far. I find it very difficult to distinguish in principle. Between a.

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Child who has. Just been. Born and a child who is about to

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Born and a child who is about to be born. If the. Child was killed. Immediately after birth, its.

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Immediately after birth, its. Killing would be an act of homicide. So I suggest.

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So I suggest. Is the killing of an unborn child immediately. Before its birth. There immediately. Before its birth. There is very little distinction in principle. Of course, the law and

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principle. Of course, the law and common sense has. Always recognised. That some acts. Of. Homicide are lawful.

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Homicide are lawful. So, for example. Reasonable defence is lawful. So, for. Example.

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Example. Is abortion. When the health of the mother. Is at. Risk long after.

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Risk long after. The 24 or 26 weeks. But such. Is. Not the.

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Case here. The arguments. That are. Being advanced. And rely. Very largely.

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On. The. Distress of vulnerable. Mothers. Mothers who, incidentally. Could.

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Have had an earlier. Abortion under the. Provisions of the 1967 act. Now.

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Now. I accept, of course, that there. May. Be very distressing cases.

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Be very distressing cases. And I. Hope, too. That the prosecution. Authorities should consider very

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Authorities should consider very carefully in any individual case, whether the public interest. Requires prosecution.

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Requires prosecution. Very often, usually not. I also think that if a prosecution occurs think that if a prosecution occurs and leads to a conviction. Then I hope that the sentencing judge will hope that the sentencing judge will give very serious consideration to the mitigating factors and impose as the mitigating factors and impose as lenient a. Sentence as possible. But these.

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these. Considerations are not the same. As the. Decriminalising, an act of

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Decriminalising, an act of homicide. Society as a whole.

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Parliament as an institution. Has the duty of care. To an unborn. Child capable.

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Child capable. Of being born alive. It is an. Obligation which. Reflects the value. That we place on.

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That we place on. Human life. This clause, if passed. Would flout.
14:05
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Labour)
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That obligation, and I do not think we should allow that to happen.

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My Lords, I'm very pleased to be taking part in the Second Reading debate. I am. Particularly pleased to welcome

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Particularly pleased to welcome my Noble friend Minister to her place. And her first bill. The first of many. I.

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I. Hope I am, and I, my two noble friends on the front bench, know that they have my support for this that they have my support for this bill. I'm following the remarks from my noble friend Baroness Lawrence. I my noble friend Baroness Lawrence. I am struck by the commitment to the government's in the Commons to introduce an amendment to make hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation, transgender identity and disability to be aggravated and disability to be aggravated offences.

And I look forward to their introduction in due course and offer my support to my noble friends and ministers. And of course, as a Labour and Co-op here, and also a former Usdaw member. I also welcome former Usdaw member. I also welcome to the bill, the address to retail to the bill, the address to retail crime, but I intend to address in this debate clause 191. I profoundly this debate clause 191. I profoundly disagree with two speakers who've spoken before me about this. In the spoken before me about this.

In the fair. On the 5th of June, MPs voted to insert clause 191 into the Crime to insert clause 191 into the Crime of Policing Bill by 379 to 137 on a

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free vote. This clause would apply the existing criminal. Law on. Abortion from women acting in

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Abortion from women acting in relation to their own pregnancies, bringing the law for women in England and Wales into. Line with England and Wales into. Line with the changes Westminster already made to abortion law in Northern Ireland to abortion law in Northern Ireland in 2019, which works well, which was debated and agreed in this House at debated and agreed in this House at some length. The proposal to repeal this provision was led by my this provision was led by my Honourable friend, Tanya Anthony.

Anthony, his only MP, and became Anthony, his only MP, and became because in recent times, contrary to the words of Lord Hailsham, we have the words of Lord Hailsham, we have actually seen a substantial increase in investigations and prosecutions of women in England and Wales under abortion law dating back to 1861, and.

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and. These have included women who were victims of domestic abuse, suspected victims of human trafficking and exploitation, and trafficking and exploitation, and girls under the age of 18. Clause 191 is a simple, principled stance 191 is a simple, principled stance which reflects the strong position of cross-party MPs and I strongly of cross-party MPs and I strongly support it as it has. And notwithstanding the words of Baroness noble Baroness, let and the Lord. The Lord, Lord Hailsham, and indeed it has to be said, the hysteria from those outside our gates this morning.

In fact, the 1967 Abortion Act is not changed by this by this clause. There remains, however, a number of technical issues which I and others believe it is our job in this House to consider as this legislation proceeds and they concern the impact the lifelong impacts of investigation and convictions for relevant events, because, of course, the change in the law under clause 191 applies only to offences committed after the Bill received Royal Assent. So there are a number of women whose pre-existing cases remain under investigation and.

Where decisions have not been made. So I think that the House needs to consider an amendment to halt ongoing criminal investigations and prosecutions for repeal offences and pardoning women with criminal.

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Records and expunging. The records of those investigations. Because, my Lords.

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Of course. If a woman is convicted of these offences, it precludes her from certain employment because of the DBS check for life. And it also includes women who have not been committed, who have not had a committed, who have not had a commitment, because it also stays on their record as part of a DBS check. their record as part of a DBS check. So I think in line with the Turing pardon for criminalisation of same sex activity and similarly outdated laws and amendment, which would pardon women with a criminal record for appeal, defence and expunge.

This record is relevant. And This record is relevant. And finally, my Lords, sometimes the if even with clause 191 removed, that even with clause 191 removed, that there are offences of the gainst the Person Act of 1861, an Infant Life Person Act of 1861, an Infant Life Preservation Act of 1929, where it have a number of offences, have been brought against women under these. brought against women under these. So I think it's important that we actually ensure that the law is in actually ensure that the law is in step on this matter.

If we want to decriminalise abortion under these circumstances. Thank you.
14:10
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Portrait Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-affiliated)
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My Lords.

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This government has pledged. To halve. Serious violence. Crime. Rebuild public.

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Rebuild public. Confidence in policing. And strengthen our criminal

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And strengthen our criminal justice system. In my judgement, the Crime and Policing Bill represents a significant. Step towards these. Vital goals. Reflecting on the

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Vital goals. Reflecting on the Bill, I am reminded of my early years as a young beat constable in Jarrow during the 1960s at the age of 20. Fresh from training, I patrolled a town area where there were no radios, no mobile phones, only public telephone boxes to contact the police station. I still contact the police station. I still remember all those years ago, a warm summer's night when, at 2 a.m, at the back of the Jarrow shopping the back of the Jarrow shopping centre, I saw a of light.

It was two men carrying a tool from the back of a shop. The shops were surrounded by a shop. The shops were surrounded by a large wall with an opening for delivery vehicles. Fortunately the delivery vehicles. Fortunately the men on seeing me separated. Otherwise I believe I was sunk. I tackled the one with the till who dropped it. We both fell to the ground and I lost my helmet and torch. After a struggle. He broke torch. After a struggle. He broke away. Unfortunately, he ran into a builder's compound which was a cul de sac.

He was struck because they de sac. He was struck because they had barbed wire at the top. He turned and threw a four foot piece of cast iron guttering at my head. My Lords, had I not ducked, I would not be here today. I even remember thinking they didn't tell me about this at the training school. I tackled him again, and with the liberal use of my truncheon, he was arrested. And I remember being splattered by his blood. That moment illustrates how risky, demanding and dangerous law Knight Patrol could be.

Yet it helps to develop resourcefulness and resilience, qualities essential in policing. As the service has evolved, today's officers face even greater complexity and risk. They do so with dedication and courage, and they deserve our respect and support. The bill commits to recruiting 13,000 additional neighbourhood police and support officers, focusing especially on town centres. Their reliability, their visibility is key to reducing anti-social behaviour and the alarming rise in violent shop thefts. Another issue the bill tackles is the lack of police visibility.

People frequently say that they never see a uniform police officer any more. This isn't just about appearances. Visibility fosters trust, provides community reassurance, and help to gather local intelligence. Preventing and detecting crime. The devastating decision to cut 20,000 officers during austerity must never be repeated. That mistake drained the service of experience, especially sergeants and inspectors. Those officers so vital to mentoring and guiding young officers. These are the supervisors who might have spotted the red flags, such as Sarah Everard, killer PC Wayne Couzens and serial rapist PC David Carrick.

The bill rightly empowers forces to raise standards such miscreants very early and restore trust. I include in this the disgusting behaviour recently of the Charing Cross 11. My Lords were pleased by consent in the UK. That principle is foundational to our system and must never be taken for granted. To uphold it, we must recruit the most honest, capable and resilient individuals and support them through strong leadership and accountability. I firmly believe in the broken Windows three theory, early action on minor and social behaviour prevents escalation, and this demands visible, engaged officers and intelligence led, proportionate stop and search used judiciously with public support.

Use wisely. We can enhance policing, public safety and community confidence. My Lords and I, including this. Modern facial recognition cameras. And to those who object to ask a simple question what is the difference between a member of the public telling me that man er, looks like a rape suspect published on Crimewatch and an image produced from a technical camera telling me the same thing. The reality is, in both cases, it simply simply points the police in the right direction and can't be used simply to convict.

Finally, I wholeheartedly support this bill. Let us stand firmly behind the men and women who risked their lives daily to protect us all and give them all the training, leadership, and support that they need and let us all work together to restore public confidence in the idea that the maintenance of law and order is the bedrock of a just and civilised and democratic society.

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Yes, yes. My Lords. There is. A lot in. This bill that.
14:15
Baroness Coffey Portrait Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
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I welcome. Though I have some sympathy with my Noble friend. Lord Garnier, about. How we keep creating law upon

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How we keep creating law upon law. One of the answers to that is that when governments lose rulings in the courts, often the only way to

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in the courts, often the only way to try and tackle perhaps. What governments had thought was. In place is to introduce new primary legislation in order to make. Sure that the will of Parliament can be put in place in

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terms of how we govern our country. But to that end, there are a. Number of. Issues where I am concerned on

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Issues where I am concerned on some elements. This bill is now going too far or indeed may not be going far enough. If I think about spiking, it was my Richard Graham, former MP for Gloucester, who first

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raised this as an issue in the Commons several. Years. Ago and has been taken up by Jo Robertson, a Member of Parliament Robertson, a Member of Parliament for Isle of Wight East, where he is in difficulty or dispute with the government, is his concern that the government, is his concern that the level four threshold for prosecution is concerningly low? Now, we've is concerningly low? Now, we've discussed already this week when do you prosecute on spying? When do you you prosecute on spying? When do you prosecute on spiking is what my honourable friend wishes to address.

And in particular he wants to talk about. And I will continue to do this with others in this House about reckless behaviour that could reckless behaviour that could actually, instead of just being intended to annoy, that it actually intended to annoy, that it actually is prank spiking can be covered because that prank spiking can have because that prank spiking can have serious consequences in terms of what are the ways that we report fraud, it's either recorded crimes

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fraud, it's either recorded crimes or through surveys. The crime that people fear the most and. Experience the most.

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In. This country is fraud. And yes, part eight. Is quite light, although perhaps this is a case of how we need to try and make sure we get more resources in the

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sure we get more resources in the police focussed on the crime that is considered to affect. Most people. In this country, perhaps rather

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In this country, perhaps rather than more statutory duties. But nevertheless, this is something that really needs tackling. Right. Across the country.

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Across the country. And not just on an online reporting. To somewhere in the City of London police.

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Perhaps never to. Be seen again. At the moment. Of course, the banks will. Pick. Up the bill by refunding.

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Pick. Up the bill by refunding. Victims of fraud, but that cost. Goes. Across all of us who have bank accounts, and that is something to

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accounts, and that is something to be considered. Quite rightly, there's a. Lot of debate.

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About reporting. I do wonder at what point does the duty to report, when we start to talk about children

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when we start to talk about children under the age of. 16 having. Sex. People getting treatments, people

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getting after the morning after pills? At what point? It's a long. Time. Ago since parents were basically blocked.

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basically blocked. From learning about. This. Activity. Even though it's their child who's involved in under age six. So who's involved in under age six. So I'd be interested to explore during this bill how we get into that fine line about what's right for the child, but also where the parent has their primary, of course, their responsibility of looking after their child. I think of Luke 17 two. I appreciate the bishops are not present in the debate at this moment, but I am concerned about clauses 72 and 79 when it comes to interested.



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To discuss. This further with the minister. Perhaps outside. Of the chamber. In terms of

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Of the chamber. In terms of reporting, though, the BBC has asked me to raise a particular issue that's regarding schedule eight 2D, and they would.

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and they would. Are. Very keen to get into making sure that undercover journalism that undercover journalism journalism is seen as a reasonable excuse, rather than their journalists being.

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journalists being. Inadvertently criminalised. In terms of the other. Aspects of this. Bill, I think it's.

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Bill, I think it's. Been well trailed already that clause one, mine one is probably the most controversial of this bill

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most controversial of this bill brought in in the other end. Now. A lot of. The prosecutions that have been

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The prosecutions that have been referenced already are due to pills by. Post. Which ultimately was passed in the House of Commons by 27 votes a the House of Commons by 27 votes a few years ago. It's very difficult. In fact, it's impossible at the moment to get any statistics. We do

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moment to get any statistics. We do not record how many pills by post are issued. We have not yet been able to get the abortion. Statistics.

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Statistics. Primarily because ONS is not able to capture them at the moment. The to capture them at the moment. The whole use of HSA forms and the similar. However, I think we do need to consider further this in much to consider further this in much more detail, including how the government intends to make sure that those who provide abortion services illegally, what further changes they may make to the law to allow that to happen. Going on about the 1861 act, I'm afraid.

Sorry. This is the basis of lots of charges brought in this country murder, use of chloroform, all these different things to try and say it's an out of date act, I'm afraid is irrelevant to the reality of actually how we use our laws today. But for this, I'm looking forward to further comments from the not only the Minister today that debate during committee stage.
14:20
Lord Anderson of Ipswich Portrait Lord Anderson of Ipswich (Crossbench)
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I appreciate it.

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Though I see more value in this bill than the noble and learned Lord Garnier was prepared to. Admit.

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Admit. I agree with what they each said about hard topics that this bill might usefully have tackled, but did

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might usefully have tackled, but did not. The Joint Committee on Human. Rights has produced. Another of. Its helpful and

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Another of. Its helpful and focussed reports. I agree with them. That. The difficult issue of. Concealing identity at protests may Concealing identity at protests may need to be better calibrated. I agree with them also on the issue of universal jurisdiction, which was debated in the Moses room on the 9th of September, to bring our law into

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of September, to bring our law into perpetrators. Of the gravest. International crimes to be prosecuted here would involve

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prosecuted here would involve nothing more. Complicated than removing the requirement of citizenship or residency. In.

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The International Criminal Court Act of 2001. I look forward. To supporting. Proposed amendments along those

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Proposed amendments along those lines. The Constitution. Committee raised. Two issues. In. Addition to that referred to by

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Addition to that referred to by the noble Lord. clause. Four of the. Categories of person who can.

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Categories of person who can. Issue. On the spot fixed. Penalty notices now of up to £500. And the need for parliamentary scrutiny of.

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scrutiny of. Statutory guidance to police. On a child sex offender. Disclosure scheme. Sarah's law,

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like many. Constitutional issues. And they may seem mundane, but I hope they will not. Escape our attention.

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Escape our attention. Turning to national. Security, I. Support. The youth diversion orders, which

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will be used to disrupt at an early believed. To be involved. In low level terrorist offending,

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In low level terrorist offending, such as the possession and. Dissemination of material. Often online.

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Often online. The idea is to divert them from the criminal justice system for their benefit and for ours. As noted their benefit and for ours. As noted in my recent report, lessons for also. consent.

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consent. To channel. Interventions. Which is currently running at.

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Which is currently running at. About 75%. Polygraph testing is to more. About how rigorously.

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About how rigorously. been. Assessed. And with. What. Result, since it was rolled out

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Result, since it was rolled out for sex offenders in 2014. And terrorist. Offenders in 2021.

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Finally, clauses. 130 to. 137 of the bill extend police powers following the seizure of powers following the seizure of electronic devices to access information accessible from such

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information accessible from such devices but stored on the cloud. The logic of that. Extension is.

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Not hard to understand, but its sheer scale requires us to. Think. About safeguards that is so

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About safeguards that is so particularly in relation to the 135, which concerns the no suspicion which concerns the no suspicion powers to search and to. Question that are exercised by counter-terrorism police in ports

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and airports. Under the Terrorism Act 2000 and the National Security Act 2023, the. Utility.

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Utility. Of those powers has not been doubted by any. Of those who have been tasked.

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Of those who have been tasked. With the close. Examination of their use, but the latest of. Them, Jonathan Hall.

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Them, Jonathan Hall. KC, was moved to ask this week what will prevent excessive data from being extracted and copied, how

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from being extracted and copied, how journalistic and legally. Privileged material on an online account will. Be protected and given the.

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Be protected and given the. Quantity of personal data which members of the public hold on the cloud, whether merely travelling cloud, whether merely travelling through a port. Or border, should be considered a sufficient reason to surrender so much private data. Senior courts have expressed a degree of disquiet about the degree of disquiet about the existing power, and a further case is under way. Nobody wants a regime of pointless. Box ticking, but we.

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of pointless. Box ticking, but we. Need to. Rise to the independent reviewers, challenge and. Satisfy ourselves that if this strong and intrusive power is to be further extended, it is accompanied by the right safeguards.
14:24
Lord Frost Portrait Lord Frost (Conservative)
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My Lords.

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A crime and disorder have reached such levels in this country that we certainly do need more effective and certainly do need more effective and meaningful policing. But it has to be done in a way that retains confidence, does not damage confidence, does not damage fundamental freedoms, and keeps the criminal law clear and easily criminal law clear and easily understood, or perhaps rather, stops the law becoming ever more complex and harder to understand. Now, I and harder to understand. Now, I won't dwell on that point.

As my noble friends, Lord Garnier has made that particular point quite eloquently, but I am sorry nevertheless that the bill continues nevertheless that the bill continues down the road that the previous government took of creating specific offences for things that are already offences for things that are already crimes. For example, though not only the offence of assault on a shop worker and my Lord, speaking as somebody who has been very critical somebody who has been very critical of the way the pandemic downs were handled, I can't help seeing some irony in the fact that four years irony in the fact that four years ago it was an offence to attend to demonstration without a face mask, demonstration without a face mask, and soon, soon it will be an offence to or to end one with one.



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My laws. Nevertheless, I'm. Generally supportive and in the time available I want to register two concerns just briefly. First of all, I. Note the government's intention. We've heard about it and it was expressed by the Minister for Policing and Crime Prevention in the Commons. The intention to expand the scope of so-called high hate crime offences by making all existing strands of hate crime aggravated offences. Now my Lords. Given the way so-called hate crimes have recently in practice, being used to chill freedom of expression and freedom of speech, I do have quite a lot of concern about this and it seems to be going quite the wrong direction.

Rather, I think as a society we ought to be going in a different direction, which is to begin to remove the concepts of hate crimes from the statute book, and in particular, to abolish the entirely illegitimate category. In my view of non crime hate incidents. Now, an amendment that effect was put forward in the Commons and did not succeed. But I hope and expect it'll be tabled again, and I may indeed propose my own amendments on that subject.

My Lords. Second, as others have done, I want to register deepest concerns about clause 191. If this becomes law, it would be the biggest change to abortion legislation since the act was introduced in 1967. As has been said, the permanent extension of the pills by Post scheme, with no requirement for an in-person consultation, has made it possible to try to end the pregnancy at any point beyond 24 weeks. Now. At the moment, that's still a criminal offence and this clause would mean it no longer was provided.

Only the mother was involved. Now, my Lords is foreseeable that this in practice will make abortions up to birth more common. It will endanger more women because of the medical risks of termination after 24 weeks, and it will create pressure for a similar decriminalisation for medical practitioners themselves. People will argue how can it be illegal for a doctor to help with something that is not in itself illegal? Or they will say that doctors need to be able to perform late term abortions to avoid the risks with terminations at home is the beginning of a

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slippery slope. Now. My Lords, there's no. Demand for this. Polling shows that more than half the public that more than half the public favour keeping abortion after 24 weeks criminal offence. Only 1% of weeks criminal offence. Only 1% of women support introducing abortion up to birth, and indeed, in passing 70% of women's support reduction in

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70% of women's support reduction in the time limit from 24 weeks to 20. Now, my Lords, the clause would.

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Now, my Lords, the clause would. Remove one of the few remaining legal protections for the unborn in our country. If children are born our country. If children are born prematurely after 24 weeks, the medical system will do everything it can to save them and is often successful. Yet this clause will make it possible to try to end the life of a baby after 24 weeks without criminal consequences. It's simply inconsistent, not just with simply inconsistent, not just with current abortion law, but with current law around maternal and child health more broadly.

My law child health more broadly. My law schools had a wholly inadequate couple of hours debate in the Commons. Its proponents really Commons. Its proponents really should be embarrassed to legislate on life and death in this fashion. I hope it will get a lot more debate
14:28
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (Liberal Democrat)
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hope it will get a lot more debate here, and I hope noble Lords will reject it. Yeah. My Lords, I welcome Baroness

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My Lords, I welcome Baroness Leavitt in introducing a bill described as challenging, broad. It's not. Easy.

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overarching. Theme. So I shall speak. Rather generally.

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Rather generally. About children who are the much. Of the bill. I declare.

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I declare. An interest. As a. Trustee of Safer London. We not me. I pay

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Safer London. We not me. I pay tribute to the professionals in the organisation, work. With young. Londoners and. Families caught.

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Londoners and. Families caught. In cycles of. Violence. Exploitation and trauma. We help them escape.

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Harm. To heal, rebuild. And believe in. Brighter futures.

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That may sound. Naive and flowery. It's hard. Headed and hard work.

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Headed and hard work. An effective response is often rooted in. Safeguarding. Not the imposition. Of punishment.

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Of punishment. Young people. Caught up, for instance, in child. Criminal exploitation, are

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Criminal exploitation, are frequently significantly affected by trauma. Seriously adverse childhood experiences before this happens. Alongside this, Safer London is finding that about.

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finding that about. A third of its clients are. Neurodiverse or.

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Have special educational needs. Allowing for those undiagnosed. This may actually mean about 50%. So many are so vulnerable. Grooming often

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involves quite small gifts. So-called followed by now you. Owe me. And if you. Don't do.

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Don't do. As I see, say, you'll. See. What's coming to your sister. A

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sort of. Debt bondage. It takes skill to work. Alongside, advocate for. And help.

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And help. A young person effect change. To see beyond behaviour. To what leads a.

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To what leads a. Young person to where they end, or are in danger of ending up noble Lords will not be surprised that.

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Lords will not be surprised that. I'll mention resources. When money has been lost to support services.

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Antisocial behaviour has increased. The first. Inquiry of the House's Justice

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and Home Affairs Committee three years ago. Looked at alternatives to short

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custodial sentences and heard a lot about the need for more investment. In treatment. As the response to

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In treatment. As the response to crime. This applies to. Children as well as adults, and it's hard for a child with a it's hard for a child with a criminal record to find employment when what's needed is an economic when what's needed is an economic future. Outside criminality. On top of this, until there's a racial

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element, black children do not get diversionary sentencing. To the. Same degree as others. This, of course, for surface. I share the frustration of other noble Lords this.

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Afternoon. I may express the amendments, concerns about polygraphs, and whether there are polygraphs, and whether there are gaps in the mandatory reporting provisions. Those are just, for instance, as a different broad

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instance, as a different broad point, how much new law. Are. We loading on the police who have

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to prioritise and. Get. Their heads around the detail of new offences? When a southern noble

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new offences? When a southern noble Lords of certain activity has been covered by an old one? But sometimes we do. Need to update.

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Need to update. I recognise, as with. Cooking. Which I want to welcome specifically, and with the late

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specifically, and with the late addition of halting the criminalisation of women. In England and. Wales under abortion law dating

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Wales under abortion law dating back. To 1861, to bring us into line with changes that noble Lords across the House. And I've been reminded I was among them, voted into Northern
14:32
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Conservative)
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was among them, voted into Northern Irish law in 2019. Yeah, yeah.

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I Lords, clause one by one proposes an extremely radical change

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to abortion law. It was added at report stage in the other. Place.

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Without proper. Due consideration and only 46

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minutes of backbench debate, it's unnecessary. Badly drafted. And will. Harm women. We already. Have one of the most.

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Have one of the most. Permissive abortion laws in the world. Even David Steel said. He never. Intended the Abortion Act 1967 to

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Intended the Abortion Act 1967 to enable termination to be treated like a form. Of contraception. The presumption in the act is

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The presumption in the act is that deliberately ending the life of a child in the womb is a criminal offence, unless it is signed off by offence, unless it is signed off by that. grounds.

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grounds. Are met. The change in the law is not because there are women who can't get abortions. It's not can't get abortions. It's not because it's too difficult to get a doctor to sign off. It's because of an ideological commitment to an ideological commitment to presenting abortion as a form of health care, like the removal of a tumour. The humanity of the baby in the womb is ignored. A wanted child is a baby and should be protected is a baby and should be protected and unwanted child is a foetus.

And the other wing words if ever there was one and can be removed and disposed of, I simply don't believe the degree to which your mother wants or does not want her baby changes the moral status of the child, and I think we need to have a national conversation about this. And I may be in a minority in this House when I speak on this issue, but I suspect that the removal of abortion from the ambit of the criminal law for the mother is something that makes many people uncomfortable, because abortion is important.

I think we all instinctively know we are dealing with the termination of a human life. We can't just allow a free for all. There must be limits. Even though prosecution of mothers for unlawful abortions is incredibly rare, the existence of a criminal law framework for abortion sends a vital message. Ending the life of an unborn person is a serious matter. This is reflected in the way the law is framed, and that's what the majority of the public appear to want. My Lords, a poll of over 2000 adults found that more than 6 in 10 respondents agreed that abortion should continue to remain illegal up to 24 weeks.

Just 17% disagreed. Clause 191. This applies the law from a woman acting in relation to her own pregnancy. So no matter how she ends the life of her unborn baby, no matter how late the pregnancy, no matter how painful for the child, no matter how distressing for whatever finds the remains, whoever finds the remains, she would be beyond the reach of the law. Whereas any doctor or nurse who is complicit would be committing a criminal offence. The member for Gower gave an interview to Times Radio.

She was asked if she was, quote, comfortable with any woman ending a pregnancy at any time, unquote. She said she was my Lords. That's what clause 191 will enable. Janice Turner of The Times, a supporter of abortion petition, wrote that she was aghast at this, quote, glib, careless and immoral clause in her words, quote, it cannot be that killing a full term baby in the birth canal is legal, but smothering it outside the womb is infanticide. And of course, the times editorial, my Lords also raised the issue of pills by post, which was passed in the dead of the night in 2022 without proper debate or an impact assessment.

And indeed, the amendment was a disorderly amendment which had to be amended by the department. My Lords, there can be severe complications with abortion pills, especially when they taken late in pregnancy. These include haemorrhaging and excruciating pain. My Lords, the traumatic situations in which these women have ended up is as a result of pills by post, enables women to have dangerous late term abortions at home alone, without any medical supervision. And yet activists are now using the failings of pills by post to push for even more extreme laws.

In conclusion, my Lords, clause 191 will only make the situation worse, increasing the number of late term abortions and putting more women in danger. If we really care for women, we need to reinstate in person appointments proper, sensitive, skilled medical assessments where experts can assess how far along a woman is, or whether there are any complicating factors that put her in danger or whether she is being coerced. My Lords, we already have unfettered access to abortion. Clause 191 is an embarrassment to supporters of abortion, and a stain on our reputation as a country that claims to care for pregnant women and their unborn children.
14:37
Lord Birt Portrait Lord Birt (Crossbench)
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Yeah, yeah. interest in reducing crime. So two

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adviser. And. Working with gifted teams of

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officials, I spent two and a half. Years looking at. Patterns of crime and offending and how the many organisations

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and how the many organisations within the criminal justice system. Were responding.

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To decay. Decades on, my Lords. However. The crime picture has changed fundamentally. On the plus.

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Side. A combination of forensic science, the extraordinary ubiquity science, the extraordinary ubiquity of street cameras, including in. Doorbells and the data obtainable from suspects mobile phones, has seen highly professional police clinically. Solve the worst crimes, clinically. Solve the worst crimes, and particularly murder. But my Lords, we are failing miserably to Lords, we are failing miserably to organise effectively to counter other types of offences which each of us now experiences, either directly or through friends and family all of the time, and to an family all of the time, and to an unprecedented extent, in which I am certain mostly go unrecorded.

Staff certain mostly go unrecorded. Staff at my local supermarket tell me they witnessed shoplifting with impunity

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witnessed shoplifting with impunity at least once every. Hour. Watch thieves stalk the streets of Soho. A visitor to a fifth floor flat in my apartment block had his £5,000 bike stolen, all captured clearly on CCTV and shared with the police. Two days later, he saw his bike for sale on eBay, but they refused to help him reclaim it. The BBC Scam Interceptors programme scams the scammers listening in, catching them in the act, chiefly frightening older people, unversed in technology into parting with some or all of their life savings.

The scammers operate with impunity on an industrial scale, out of identified buildings in India. The BBC recently tracked down a scammer facility in Nigeria which tricks naive British teenagers into selling sex picks, then blackmails them in one instance tragically triggering a suicide. My Lords, we should be ashamed sitting here in the nation's Parliament in the borough of Westminster, that we are cited in the street crime capital of the UK. With mobile and other theft rampant.

Yes, the police have just finally mounted an ambitious operation, but each of us will know people who have had their mobile snatched have immediately located it using the Find My Phone facility to a specific House in Hackney or elsewhere, only to be told by police that no action will be taken in our city centres. Warrior e-bikes bomb along some at souped up speeds, sometimes at night, without lights, ignoring red lights and zebra crossings the wrong way up one way streets all with impunity, confident that they never will be stopped.

And I thought Baroness Stoll tellingly identified other forms of wholly unwelcome and ever increasing anti-social behaviour on our streets. Knife crime has doubled in a decade, with now over 50,000 annual offences and 200 plus deaths. Now the most common method of murder. The current inquiry into the horrific Southport massacre by a 17 year old has produced chilling evidence of just how easy it was for him to purchase outrageous weaponry online. In his case, a black panther kukri machete with a 16.5in blade.

I do not, my Lords, dispute the value of most measures in this bill, but I do suggest that nothing in it addresses the need for the police and other agencies massively to raise their game and to attack every kind of crime that has a material impact on our everyday lives, whether on the internet or on the streets. So I conclude by asking the minister in his closing remarks if the government will step back and frame a bold and transformative strategy to tackle head on the plague of everyday crime.

Crime which we are living with today.
14:42
Lord Herbert of South Downs Portrait Lord Herbert of South Downs (Conservative)
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Yes.

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I draw attention to my interest declared in the Register as Chair of declared in the Register as Chair of the College of Policing for our Police Service, founded on the principle of consent to be effective principle of consent to be effective the trust and confidence of the communities they serve is essential. But the proportion of the public who But the proportion of the public who believe the police are doing a good job has fallen precipitously in the last few years.

There are multiple causes, but I believe this bill and the government's focus on rebuilding neighbourhood policing will be a very important step towards improving confidence. We place improving confidence. We place immense demands on the police service, and in recent years there has been a shift of priorities and resources towards dealing with crimes of harm and important issues such as violence against women and girls, issues which simply weren't girls, issues which simply weren't on the agenda before. Combined with funding and other pressures, we've funding and other pressures, we've seen in some forces a failure to attend to the basic standards of service which the public expect, such as action following shoplifting, burglaries or mobile shoplifting, burglaries or mobile phone theft.

It is, I believe, the failure to attend to these basics, which exacerbates criticism of the police for overreach, for getting involved in things we do not want them to be doing, and in particular in relation to police action, which it is felt intrudes upon free speech. Non crime hate incidents have become a kind of lightning rod for criticism of the service, and a number of high profile cases of ill judged police intervention have undoubtedly damaged confidence. NCS were borne out of the landmark Stephen Lawrence inquiry as a means to support police, to monitor incidents linked to hate or hostility, with the purpose of preventing future crimes, supporting investigations and protecting the most vulnerable in our communities.

Recent events, such as the horrific attacks on the Manchester Synagogue and the Peacehaven mosque, should remind us that dealing with hate crime remains as vital in 2025 as it did in over a quarter a century ago. It is essential that policing continues to have the ability to monitor hate and hostility within our communities. What could not have been envisaged at the time of the Lawrence Inquiry was the growth of the internet, the advent of smartphones and social media, and how these have transformed how people interact with each other.

The rapid expansion of the online space, coupled with increasingly polarised public discourse, has resulted in forces grappling with the challenge of balancing free speech with monitoring community tension in both physical and online spaces to prevent crime and protect people from harm. Not all perceived hate reported to police requires a police response or police incident record. The requirement to record should be shaped by necessity, proportionality and legality. There have been high profile instances where policing has struggled with all three.

That is why I called in this chamber for a rebalancing of the system, and at my instigation, the college, together with the National Police Chiefs Council and with the support of the Inspectorate of Constabulary and the government, set up a review of the entire system of non crime hate incidents. The review has found that the current approach and use of non crime hate incidents is not fit for purpose, and there is a need for broad reform to ensure that policing can focus on genuine harm and risk within communities.

The recording of hurt feelings and differing views should not continue. A report has just been sent to ministers and I am sure they will respond in due course. But while I believe change is vital to restore public confidence and to ensure that free speech is protected, I would cancel again against laying at the door of non crime hate incidents. All the problems of policing. The police are not spending their whole time policing tweets. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has pointed out that non crime hate incidents account for 0.05% of the calls they respond to, and a number of the high profile and controversial cases about the policing of social media comment actually relate to hate crimes offences which Parliament created for good reason.

If we want to revisit those criminal offences then then that is a debate which we should have here. But in the meantime, the police have a duty to uphold the law. What I think we can and should expect is that the police will act proportionately without fear or favour, and use common sense and professional judgement in the investigation of crimes. That judgement was obviously lacking in some recent cases. So a second key initiative, which I and the college's Chief Executive, Andy Marsh, have instigated, will be new guidance on the exercise of that discretion so that we can ensure that common sense decisions are taken and that confidence in the police service is not undermined.
14:47
Baroness Hazarika Portrait Baroness Hazarika (Labour)
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My Lords, I very much welcome this bill, especially measures to tackle anti-social behaviour and shoplifting. And I would like to thank my friend Lord Hanson for visiting Brixton just before the summer, where he met with local shopworkers and local businesses, and we were very grateful for his time. I strongly support clause 191, which seeks to decriminalise women who have to have an abortion. It was introduced by our colleague Tonya Antonio, who is with us here today in the chamber.

It is not in the public interest for any woman to be prosecuted and given a criminal record in relation to her own body and her own abortion. In this day and age, we should not be vilifying and hounding pregnant women who often find themselves in deeply traumatic circumstances. I do not believe that any woman takes an abortion lightly, particularly at a very late stage. They need support, medical care and compassion, not the threat of prison. I'll tell you what I find embarrassing.

This conversation and the tone of this conversation, it feels like we are back in Victorian times. It is absurd and wrong that in 2025, we are arguing that a woman should have the right or the agency to choose what she knows is best for her body and for her health. I also welcome the government's commitment to ending time limits of child abuse. At the moment, it is very, very difficult to bring a case if you are over the age of 21, that makes no sense and it is a denial of justice, as it often takes many years before people who were abused as a child can speak about their abuse.

But the government is only proposing this apply to sexual abuse. I would ask ministers to consider widening this to include physical and emotional abuse and neglect, which often accompanies sexual abuse. This is the approach taken in Scotland and I think this is right. I hope that the ministers will also consult with victims of child sex abuse about how to make it easier to seek justice. We know from the grooming rape gang scandal how hard it is for young people to speak out and to be believed, and the devastating consequences of abuse.

I very much agree with lots of the points raised by Baroness Royal, but I would also really welcome what we heard from the minister, who announced a pardon and disregard scheme for those girls caught up in the grooming gang scandal. I know that's something that they have been pressing for, and they will very much hope that that will happen. Finally, we know that much of the troubling increase in sexual violence and misogyny against women and girls is rooted in people, particularly young people, having unfettered access to extreme pornography.

90% of online porn, in fact, involves acts of torture and barbarism against women. 44% of our children have watched rape scenes online. This is poisoning minds and leading to violence in real life. So I very much support the amendments tabled by Baroness Burton to better protect children from online pornography. And I also appreciate the government's efforts to ban the depiction of strangulation. It is not right and it is not normal to teach our children that sex means inflicting pain on a woman.

But that is what is happening and we are allowing it to happen on the online screen. The screens on the screens that our kids have in their hands every single day. I hope ministers can make some progress on these three issues through the passage of

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this bill. Thank you. My notes. There is much in this
14:51
Baroness Browning Portrait Baroness Browning (Conservative)
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My notes. There is much in this bill that can be supported. Many of the measures were, as we've heard, part of the Conservative criminal part of the Conservative criminal justice bill that fell at the time of the last election. So on many levels, there should be consensus. But this is a very large bill with many specific headings, many of which would merit a standalone bill in their own right. Our scrutiny will require time, as we have seen when considered by the other place, requiring 15 committee days, and we have been promised further amendments from from the government.

I hope the Minister will encourage his frontbench to allow sufficient time for the level of scrutiny for which we in this House are proud. These are all important subjects. The government have said the bill will deliver its Safer Streets mission, and the early parts of the bill address, inter alia, offensive weapons stalking. Retail crime and anti-social behaviour. Anti-social behaviour is complex and we often use the term in as an umbrella term. That is not good enough.

As far as

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this bill is concerned, the. Public and particularly the.

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Police need clarity in this area where and where anti-social behaviour is not dealt with at a low behaviour is not dealt with at a low level, then of course it can turn to much more serious criminal activity much more serious criminal activity and that becomes the norm. We have only to look at the more recent only to look at the more recent change in retail theft, not a new crime, but one which has developed in a way which now requires us in in a way which now requires us in this bill to Fall.

Stronger protection for retail workers. And I protection for retail workers. And I hope, as in clause 37 to 39, we're able to deliver that.

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able to deliver that. My Lords, serious. Crime, knife crime, sexual abuse

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Crime, knife crime, sexual abuse of children are in need of stronger enforcement. And as we progress with enforcement. And as we progress with these, with this legislation, I hope we will hear more about how enforcement is to be delivered.

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enforcement is to be delivered. It is a fact.

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It is a fact. It is a fact. As the criminality evolves, as criminality evolves, so evolves, as criminality evolves, so too we have. We as legislators often find ourselves playing catch up and somewhat behind the curve to keep up with the criminals. I count. I think I've been in this House well over 30 years. Not this House, but the whole building over 30 years, and there seem to be enormous Home Office bills required almost in every session. But I think it's understandable why we can't afford to stay still.

The criminals don't stay still, and very often the technology aiding and abetting. My Lords. I too, like many others, I'm concerned about clause 191. Baroness Hazarika, in her submission just now mention that a woman in this position would need many things, including medical assistance. From what I've heard today, I am not actually clear in my mind that if this was enacted, medical assistance would be lawful. And I do hope that we are going to give sufficient time to this course, and that the Minister will make sure that we have the information we need when debating this, to make sure that existing legislation that is already on the statute book is, is weighed against what is being proposed in this particular clause.

So, my Lords, I do support this bill. I'm sure there'll be 1 or 2 bits and pieces in which I've got issues, but nonetheless, this former Home Office minister wishes it good speed.
14:55
Lord Faulks Portrait Lord Faulks (Non-affiliated)
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Yeah. about one specific issue in the bill, which has been referred to by Baroness Hazarika and Baroness Royall, which is the limitation period for child sexual abuse claims. Child sexual abuse is abhorrent and unfortunately it's been shown over the last 20 or 30 years to be much more widespread than was once believed to be the case. It's always been possible for the victim of child abuse to sue the perpetrator or more commonly, the institution where the perpetrator worked or was closely connected.

The limitation being three period being

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three years. There are exceptions. However, the most important and relevant to which is that. Time doesn't start to run until

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Time doesn't start to run until the claimant reaches the age of 18. Even after three years, there are

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various ways of extending the limitation period. Firstly. the. Necessary knowledge or awareness of the abuse quite.

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of the abuse quite. Often relied on. But the most important extension was provided by section. 33 of the

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was provided by section. 33 of the Limitation Act 1980, which. Gave the courts. A complete. Discretion to apply the

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Discretion to apply the limitation period. The section sets. Out in. Detail all. Sorts. Of sensible factors which. Guide.

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Guide. but. The discretion. Is in fact. Unfettered, so. That other factors not listed can

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That other factors not listed can be taken into account. Although it's for the claimant to persuade the

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for the claimant to persuade the court, the courts generally apply the limitation period as it. Happens, unless. There are particular

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There are particular circumstances where it would be unfair for the case to go on. I mean, noble Lords might think, well, mean, noble Lords might think, well, it would never be unfair for the victim of child sexual abuse to be deprived of a victim. And I had some sympathy for that. But the reality sympathy for that. But the reality is that the claims are not against the perpetrators, they're against institutions, educational or religious, and those run by local authorities or government where the

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abuse has taken place. The law on vicarious liability was changed by the courts. So that institution. Could not argue that the abuse

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Could not argue that the abuse was outside the scope of employment. The result that. Was that compensation often be

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Was that compensation often be had to be paid, sometimes even by the taxpayer or insurers, without the taxpayer or insurers, without any fault on their part. I should make it entirely clear that I have a make it entirely clear that I have a relevant interest to declare. The years, as a barrister, I have acted for institutions that have been sued for institutions that have been sued for what is known as historic child abuse. I've also acted for victims, abuse.

I've also acted for victims, and I've been involved in a number of the cases which have reached the higher courts on the questions of

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higher courts on the questions of limitation. My query to the government is essentially this what was wrong with the. Existing law.

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Existing law. In practice, and how do the relevant provisions change it? My current view is that the provisions, current view is that the provisions, if these provisions become law, there is a risk of satellite litigation just at a time when the litigation just at a time when the law seemed relatively settled. There are some cases where it's simply impossible for there to be any meaningful trial. For example, the claimant's own recollection may be very hazy. The perpetrators or

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very hazy. The perpetrators or alleged perpetrators of the abuse may be dead. There'd be no maybe no. Records.

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Of any sort, and the relevant institution may have closed, and any insurance may be untraceable. The insurance may be untraceable. The intention, presumably, and it's something of a compromise this particular way that's framed in the. particular way that's framed in the. Bill is to make it very difficult for the defendant to defeat a claim on grounds of limitation. But what on grounds of limitation. But what sort of cases would now be in time, which would not be under the current which would not be under the current law? There are some other features which need to be raised at committee stage, some already referred to stage, some already referred to what's the proper definition of sexual abuse? What about other forms of abuse which may properly be of abuse which may properly be described as sexual? What if there are mixed abuse claims? There will also be uncertainty as to what constitutes, quote, settled by agreement, unquote.

Does this include pre litigation settlements? And what about claims that have been discontinued or settled informally? My current view is that the law is My current view is that the law is fair to both parties. These changes will breed uncertainty and litigation. Good for lawyers but not a beneficial advance in the law. The proposed changes are not the result proposed changes are not the result of a Law Commission report, nor the result of a large piece of legislation like Limitation Act. legislation like Limitation Act.

Rather, they seem to be the result of a general recommendation from the XR inquiry and a rather modest consultation. This is not a good way to make law and will result in uncertainty, uncertainty and much litigation in a wholly natural desire to help the victims of abuse. We should be careful not to make bad law.
15:00
Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee (Conservative)
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You.

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My Lords, I'm grateful to noble Baroness, the minister, for the introduction of her Bill, which has introduction of her Bill, which has much to commend it. My Lords, earlier this year I indicated that I earlier this year I indicated that I would retire in the spring. However, I am a politician and I didn't say I am a politician and I didn't say which spring. But I really do want to retire. But I have one last to retire. But I have one last parliamentary task to deal with.

When I arrived at your Lordships' House in 1992, one of my areas of expertise was in road haulage operations, including abnormal load operations, including abnormal load movements. In the late 1990s, the late and much miss Lord Mason of late and much miss Lord Mason of Barnsley worked tirelessly on seeking to replace the police with seeking to replace the police with private or rather self escorting of abnormal loads. This was because it abnormal loads. This was because it was not a good use of police time, and in some cases the police were and in some cases the police were not very good at it.

Although forces such as the met were and still are such as the met were and still are excellent, a large part of the problem was that police prioritise problem was that police prioritise causing abnormal loads to have to wait a long time for a police escort, which was expensive for industry. At this point I should declare an interest as I operate a tank transporter for the Army Museum and I have given the minister full details of this interest. My Lords, we succeeded in about 2002 when the then Minister of State for policing, John Denham, changed UK policy, and henceforth the police would not routinely escort abnormal loads unless they were particularly large or traffic rules would have to be contravened.

By and large, this policy change worked really well and I'm proud of it. But about three years ago, some police forces decided to take a very close interest in heavy haulage operations. It is not clear why, because my understanding, based on discussion at retired senior traffic commissioner level, is that operators conduct heavy haulage work are generally regarded as responsible, compliant hauliers who want to do it right despite the many challenges they face. There will, of course, be a small proportion of heavy hauliers identified who don't comply, just as there are always haul it who lives in all sectors who won't comply.

But these are the exception and not the rule. With regard to the few forces involved. The most appropriate term would be persecution and harassment, and even of the largest and most professional operators in the land. I have emailed my report to many of you Lordships about my investigations, and I urge you. Just to read page three, noble Lords will often ask me what is driving this behaviour? The short answer is money. Often the police officers who decide if the load needs a police escort are the very same ones who will pick up the overtime payments.

Furthermore, over the last five years, the income for West Midlands Police, for instance, has increased somewhat. So year one 15,000, year two 39,000. Year three 36,000. Are your lordships sitting down comfortably? Year four 855,000. Year five projected using the 2324 figures 1.1 million. So we've gone from 14,000 to 1.1 million. The income profile of many other police forces has remained steady, so other comparative police forces, you're looking at about 30,000 a year.

Some police forces, like Thames Valley, don't make any charges at all. My notes. We have regulations about how much the police can charge for issuing a firearms certificate. And basically we screw down the amount that the police can charge so they can't do a proper job. But none about charges for escorting an abnormal load. There is NPCC guidance, but is predicated on policing events such as football matches. The police forces involved are charging for a minimum six hour shift, but using the same team to escort several loads within that shift.

This cannot be right. It should be noted that a lot of the money eventually comes from government funded projects such as HS2. I will be tabling amendments about this and quite a few others about abnormal loads, because the relevant Sgo legislation is no longer fit for purpose.
15:05
Baroness Kidron Portrait Baroness Kidron (Crossbench)
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Yeah, yeah.

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Her kind words about the new offence with respect to child sexual abuse image generators, but I abuse image generators, but I actually wanted to take the opportunity myself to recognise the work of specialist police unit who have worked alongside me on these and other issues, working at the and other issues, working at the frontline of child sexual abuse detection and enforcement is to come detection and enforcement is to come up against some of the most sordid and horrendous scenarios that can and horrendous scenarios that can make you lose faith in humanity.

So I wanted to put on record our huge I wanted to put on record our huge debt to them for their courage and debt to them for their courage and their commitment. I was also pleased to hear the Minister's commitment to criminalise pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation. This is one of a number of concerns of the noble Lady of concerns of the noble Lady Baroness Burton, which she will speak to shortly, and I shall be speak to shortly, and I shall be supporting her on all her amendments.

During the recess I chaired a meeting of extremely chaired a meeting of extremely senior health professionals and the prevalence of young people presenting in clinical settings suffering from violence and abuse during sex was simply horrific. With outcomes ranging from fear, trauma to death itself, there is an epidemic of sexual violence normalised and driven by pornography. And I very much hope that the noble Baroness will have the support of the whole House on this matter. I, for others, further areas of concern, and I'm going to touch on each very briefly.

First, this House successfully introduced amendments to the data Bill, the Data Use and Access Act, to empower coroners to require technology companies to preserve data when a child has died. At the time we proposed but were refused, that preservation notices should be automatic and that statutory guidance should be developed. We now have the law, but bereaved families are still unable to benefit from its provisions because preservation notices are not being used quickly enough, nor are the powers fully understood.

It is simply heartbreaking to see a parent who has just lost a child become a victim of a system that does not understand or use its own powers, and I will be laying amendments to make the new law work as Parliament was promised, and it intended. Second, we have seen we've all seen media reports of chat bots suggesting illegal content or activity to children. I remain unclear about the government's appetite to strengthen Ofcom's codes, or to resolve the differences of opinion between Parliament and the regulator about the scope of the Online Safety Act.

Nevertheless, I will be seeking to ensure that AI chat bots, which suggest or facilitate illegal activity, are addressed in the Crime and Policing Bill. Third, as I've indicated, I welcome the Csam generator offence already in the bill, but a gap does remain and I will be tabling amendments to place clear, legally binding duties on developers of generative AI systems to conduct risk assessments identifying if and how their systems could be misused for this narrow, devastating purpose. And finally, I am curious about the youth Diversion orders.

I am by no means against them, but I would like to understand if they are to be backed up by other support, such as autism screening and therapeutic support. Many at the front line of this issue say there's a serious lack of resource, and I would be interested to hear from ministers if how young people are to be supported once diverted, and if the government has plans to further look at the responsibility of tech companies who deliberately design for constant engagement, even if extreme content is being used simply as bait.

My Lords, it is no longer possible to consider the online world separate from any other environment. And if we do not impose the legal order we require elsewhere, we continue to create a place of lawlessness and abuse.
15:10
Baroness Bertin Portrait Baroness Bertin (Conservative)
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Yes.

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Easy act to follow. But I want to thank her so much. For. My noble friend, the Baroness

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My noble friend, the Baroness Kidron for her work. And as they say back at you, I will be supporting your work. On.

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On. This bill as well. I also want to welcome the noble, this House. What welcome the noble, this House. What an asset I think she'll be and also to the government. And I want to very graciously thank her and this very graciously thank her and this government for the announcement around the criminal criminalisation around the criminal criminalisation of depictions of strangulation. The law has to be well drafted, though, because the industry will find every loophole they possibly can.

They're loophole they possibly can. They're like water dripping through the cracks. And I'm telling you, they'll already be thinking about it because already be thinking about it because it's a very popular, very profitable genre. So I would appreciate some genre. So I would appreciate some back and forth on that to make sure that we absolutely get it right, because it's a big bill. We don't because it's a big bill. We don't want to spend time arguing over things that we basically agree with.

Pornography. My Lords has, has, has long existed and it's not going long existed and it's not going anywhere anytime soon, but it's scale and its nature and its impact

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have changed dramatically. And today, free and easily accessible content, as many Lords have already. Said.

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Said. Is increasingly violent, degrading and misogynistic. This is degrading and misogynistic. This is not a niche issue. Over a quarter of the UK population regularly accesses online pornography. A third of men say they watch it weekly, and the say they watch it weekly, and the average age of first exposure is just 13. Technologies such as notification apps designed to notification apps designed to sexually humiliate are still legal and very prolific, and it's not and very prolific, and it's not confined to pornography sites.

Violent sexual content is now present on social media. X being the present on social media. X being the worst offender, I would say, and mainstream platforms. Home pages of mainstream platforms. Home pages of major porn sites display material with titles including words like with titles including words like attack, kidnap, force, violate mainstream search engines very mainstream search engines very quickly get you to thousands of videos with harmful titles such as He Overdid It and Now She's Dead. Lawyer strangled, bound and gagged in a van.

And these are the ones I in a van. And these are the ones I can read out. I'm pleased little ones have gone from the chamber. Content involving incest and child abuse themes are also disturbingly relevant, prevalent, and the free to view porn business model has driven

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this extremity. This is rewiring how young people. Think. About sex, gender and

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About sex, gender and relationships. Toxic masculinity we know is rising. An expert warned of links between violent viewing, links between violent viewing, extreme pornography and committing sexual violence. Indeed, online porn sexual violence. Indeed, online porn has been described by one expert as the largest unregulated social experiment in human history. We experiment in human history. We discovered this during the review. The impact is far reaching. Choking The impact is far reaching. Choking has now become a sexual norm. That is why the law does need to change.

is why the law does need to change. It will take a while to reverse this though. Over 3,038% of women under 40 say they've been strangled during sex. Nurses reported to us dealing sex. Nurses reported to us dealing with sexually inflicted injuries on a very regular basis. Teachers reported pupils confusion over what reported pupils confusion over what constitutes sexual assault, as well as increasing reports of sexual dysfunction among men who find real life intimacy less stimulating than online extremes and leading to many, online extremes and leading to many, many relationship breakdowns.

When I met with Sheila Pimlico daughter last month, she was adamant that last month, she was adamant that online pornography played a role in her father's crimes. And Dame Angela only Angelini in her inquiry, highlighted the Sarah Everard murderer had a history of viewing violent pornography. Yet despite the harm and the place at which extreme online content has proliferated, legislation has lagged far behind. There is no external moderation, no no proactive monitoring. There is no one. There is no one government department with overall accountability or responsibility.

Laws are patchy and rarely enforced. And again, I am delighted that one recommendation of 32 has been taken forward. But there is a lot more to do. And in stark contrast to the world of offline pornography such as DVDs, is regulated by the British Board of Film Classification, which my Noble friend Baroness Benjamin spoke to. So these amendments will absolutely do just that and will seek to reduce this imbalance in the law. It cannot be right that offline law would refuse to classify material which promotes or depicts child sexual abuse, incest, trafficking, torture and harmful sexual acts.

This has to change these regulations, these recommendations and amendments will ensure not only the act, but the depiction of incest and material that encourage an interest in child sexual abuse would be banned. It would also bring parity between material prohibited online and offline. It would also compel sites and platforms to verify the age and consent of anyone appearing on them. My Lords, this is not about ending pornography. It is about putting proportionate and necessary guardrails back in place.

I don't believe you stand here and think that these amendments will solve everything overnight, but I believe these changes could bring good, workable, enforceable law which at long last is in step with technological developments and growing national sentiment. To our daughters, it would say there is no industry, no subculture, that condones or excuses violence against them. To the porn industry and the ecosystem that it supports. It would say to them that they can no longer avoid accountability or scrutiny. And to our sons who are also damaged in all this, regulating online pornography says to them that what they have seen on their screens is not normal, it is not acceptable and it is not inevitable.

And when we come to later stages, I urge noble Lords and the government to support these amendments. Apologies for

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overrunning. The Lords, the Minister, the noble Baroness Lady Leavitt, should noble Baroness Lady Leavitt, should be congratulated for her extraordinary achievement in extraordinary achievement in summarising more than 400 densely packed pages of legislation in 15 minutes, which I by my mathematics, works out around summarising 25 pages per minute. So I think she's
15:17
Viscount Goschen Portrait Viscount Goschen (Conservative)
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pages per minute. So I think she's set the bar pretty high, and I know that her friends on the government frontbench will be looking very closely to see if they can follow on from that. My Lords, I would also like to follow my Noble friend, Lord Garnier, navel Lord, Lord Birt. Down for perhaps unpopular opinion in this House of legislation that the answer doesn't always lie in the statute book, and much of the anti-social behaviour type issues that we've been talking about in the early part of this very substantial bill are already illegal activities that crimes.

So the focus of my remarks, my Lords, really is going to be much more on execution, delivery, performance and coordination than it is on the generation of new criminal offences, quite often of offences that are an activities that are already illegal. So, my Lords, I hope the Minister will accept that nothing I say today will be should be taken as a party political point or a criticism of a government of one flavour or another. My remarks are intended to address the performance of government as a whole under various different administrations, and including all of the agencies involved, including the police.

My Lords, I'd like to start off by saying that I certainly pay tribute to the police officers who protect us all. I think we're extremely lucky to have such a high quality police force. And when there are failings such as we've heard about, including from the noble Baroness, they're even more extraordinary because the overall standard is, is so high. But my Lords, despite that, public confidence in local policing has continued to decline. And one of the principal factors is that the public sees overt offending not being properly prioritised or dealt with.

The cumulative effects of the de facto tolerance of street crime means that the public feels powerless and disenfranchised, whilst lawbreakers are allowed to carry on without fear or sanction. And we've heard about, for example, the extraordinary prevalence of bicycle crime. I understand that the clear up raise is 1% 1% the Lords. So criminals for 99% of the time are getting away with it. And that is normalisation and tolerance of crime. And we cannot allow that to be the case.

The noble Lord, Lord Hogan, have we all listened to so carefully on so many issues? And I find myself very much aligned with his view that if we see people rising, obviously illegally, powerful e-bikes, how does that affect those who go the proper route of purchasing registered vehicles with number plates, ensuring taxing mode and being prepared to take the sanctions should they break the law, so, my Lords, we a never have I seen a policeman. Never. And I walk a couple of miles a day around the streets of central London.

I've never once seen a policeman stop one of these vehicles. My Lords, there has been a lack of coordination and accountability has fallen between the cracks, between central local government. And I believe 45 will say police forces. And just as a finally final name laws, is that really a sensible number in our

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modern digital age, in our small group of islands? OK. Yeah.
15:20
Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
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OK. Yeah. My Lords, can I at my thanks and welcome to the Minister. Bill.

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Bill. And can I also thank my Noble friend Baroness Doocey for setting friend Baroness Doocey for setting out the Liberal Democrat stall so cogently on both policing more generally and on this bill. My Lords, on these benches, we recognise the imperative to make our streets safer and equip the police with the tools necessary to address modern crime. We support the elements of the bill that tackle knife crime, combat, online child exploitation and pursue criminal proceeds. However, the foundation of our approach to public safety is our demand that new laws should not just be tough, but fair and proportionate, and we reject measures that.



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Risk the erosion of civil liberties or. The. vulnerable.

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A core. Priority for me and my party is ensuring that our legal framework is ensuring that our legal framework is modernised and future proofed against evolving digital and online threats. As my noble friend emphasised, we support the new measures concerning the online measures concerning the online supply chain of offensive weapons. We welcome the introduction of civil penalties aimed at strengthening accountability for businesses and online platforms involved in the online platforms involved in the advertising or selling of unlawful weapons to enhance police intervention capability.

We will, intervention capability. We will, however, propose an amendment mandating a proactive, real time mandating a proactive, real time system for reporting under the new duty to report bulk or suspicious duty to report bulk or suspicious sales of bladed articles to the police. The current cyber security landscape is, however, badly hampered by outdated legislation. The Computer Misuse Act 1990 is now 34 years old, stemming from a time before widespread internet access. before widespread internet access. It inadvertently criminalises legitimate cybersecurity activities such as vulnerability research, which are essential for national security.

And we also call for the introduction of a statutory public interest defence within the CMA. 1990 to decriminalise the vital work of vital and cybersecurity professionals and provide clearer legal protections. Furthermore, to combat organised crime and address widespread online fraud, we want to see the creation of a specific criminal offence for digital identity theft. This new offence must target the unauthorised obtaining of personal or sensitive information, such as passwords or biometric data, with the clear intent to impersonate an individual for unauthorised activities.

We support new online child protection offences targeting AI generated child sexual abuse material and enhanced Border Force powers to compel device unlocking for csam searches on extreme pornography. We will be strongly supporting amendments to be tabled by the noble Baroness Burton following her review extending the online definition to explicitly cover incest, pornography and material depicting adults acting as all depicting children. And we want to see robust safeguards against the inappropriate use of intrusive technology we approach.

We oppose the police's use of live facial recognition surveillance in public spaces without a statutory framework, given concerns regarding privacy and algorithmic bias, deployment of LFR should be explicitly authorised by a judicial warrant and governed by a statutory code of practice, complete with an independent oversight body on anti-social behaviour measures. Accountability and fairness are of crucial importance. New respect orders must be subject to rigorous democratic scrutiny. Applications need to undergo full public consultation and be should be approved by the relevant full council or its executive or Cabinet before implementation.

My Lords were opposed to the punitive increase in fixed penalty notices for breaches of Public spaces, protection Orders and community protection notices from £100 to £500. This sharp increase risks intensifying abuses and arbitrary enforcement against the most vulnerable individuals, and we will continue to protect the fundamental right to peaceful process. My Lords, on these benches, we will seek to amend this bill to ensure it's routed online and offline in accountability, proportionality and the protection of civil liberties. We must ensure that this legislation is fair, effective and fit for the future.
15:25
Lord Farmer Portrait Lord Farmer (Conservative)
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My Lords. bill to drive her government's safer Streets mission to halve violence

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against women and girls in a decade. So I welcome. Tightening the.

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Tightening the. Law in clauses 84 and 85 around voyeurism and criminalising exposure intended for sexual gratification or humiliation. Despite the Supreme humiliation. Despite the Supreme Court disallowing biological males from using women's changing rooms and spaces, this still happens in many contexts. Not all are motivated many contexts. Not all are motivated by voyeurism already a crime, or to expose themselves for sexual gratification or humiliation. But we shouldn't turn a blind eye to these possible motivations. Consideration possible motivations.

Consideration should be given to them. Can the Minister confirm this new law will Minister confirm this new law will protect women and girls whilst everyone catches up with the Supreme everyone catches up with the Supreme Court ruling? Clause 147 extending polygraph testing to more offenders, including those posing a risk of committing certain sexual offences, should shore up protection against should shore up protection against predation on women and girls. If technology helps us manage sex technology helps us manage sex offenders more smartly, let's use it.

However, clause 191, as we've heard much today, cuts across this bill's protections against predation despite risks to women. This clause, intended to transform our societal approach to abortion, was appended in a rushed, emotive way. In the other House. My Lords, there is a pattern here. Safe access zones around all abortion clinics were also hurriedly appended to the Public Order Act in the Commons. This despite testimonies from women now with grown up children, whom they were very glad they decided not to terminate.

After talking to caring and compassionate people outside clinics. Once such measures appear in legislation, they acquire an unassailable guilty on the grounds of care and compassion for women seeking abortions. Clause 191 repeats the same pseudo virtuous stitch up a short discussion in the other House during report stage of a bill that has absolutely nothing to do with abortion, and the assumption that all fair minded people should agree to it. Those who don't can just be dismissed as reactionaries because abortion is treated as an unlimited good in our topsy turvy moral universe.

Whatever we each individually think about abortion, the laws of this land, and a wide range of other considerations are being ignored or twisted out of shape to meet the insatiable bility of extreme bodily autonomy. Safe access zones sacrificed freedom of speech on that altar. Clause 191 shreds criminals, women's criminal responsibility and with it a vital protection for her against a partner or family member. Coercing, predating upon her to have a late term abortion, bringing about her own late stage termination of a baby that's been kicking, hiccupping and otherwise moving in utero will leave a long tail of effect on her life.

Decriminalisation is only caring and compassionate in a very narrow and short term way. This House will discuss ramifications of allowing terminations up to birth, but the only fit place for clause 191 is the cutting room floor. My Lords, I will end by apologising on Baroness Goudie behalf for not being here today. She will table amendments against trafficking for sexual exploitation to outlaw lucrative UK based pimping websites, which enable traffickers to advertise their victims easily and ply this vile trade.



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Here. complained. About. The length and diverse and

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The length and diverse and diverse nature of this bill, I'm going to propose five modest going to propose five modest additions to it, which in entirety would take up less than a page extra would take up less than a page extra to add to the to the 400 that the bill already contains. These are bill already contains. These are measures which were related to the review I carried out in my capacity
15:30
Lord Walney Portrait Lord Walney (Crossbench)
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review I carried out in my capacity as the government. The government's former adviser, independent adviser on political Violence and disruption. The review, which had such a profound impact on the last government that the Prime Minister called a general election 24 hours after I having having published it. So this is the first legislative opportunity to enact some of these measures. And this is this is a timely moment. The Prime Minister rightly stood up after the Heaton Park synagogue massacre and murders, and said that he would do whatever it takes to keep the Jewish community safe.

And there are a number of measures in this bill that will help protect vulnerable communities and individuals, such as Jewish people. Again, in this increasingly dangerous and intimidating environment, and better balance the right to protest, which is indeed fundamental with the rights of the wider rights of communities and individuals to live their lives free from from disruption. But it must go further in a number of key ways. First, on cumulative impact, where the focus of the Prime Minister and Home Secretary is welcome.

Looking at the harm which has been done by to Jewish communities in particular from the weekly marches, repeated marches that have taken place, which have made many areas seem unsafe for Jewish people. But the commitment made so far, which is to add cumulative cumulative impact into sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act, it already exists. Unless the Minister can explain to me how it will be extended. And the important thing is to add the cumulative impact into section 13 of the act, which which enables the police to recommend to the Home Secretary that a procession should not go ahead on particular days.

Simply simply amending the precise route or the timing is not going to be sufficient. Now, I don't want to go over my time, so let me race through the other measures to protecting police resources. The government should consider adding into section 12, 13 and 14 the difficulty of police being able to resource repeat marches and the and the effect that this is having on other key areas. Third, protecting our our democracy where the very welcome strengthening of protection to places of worship should be added to that should be added places that are central to the functioning of our democracy, such as council offices and MPs offices for enhanced powers to tackle extreme protest activity where, wherever, where, however anyone comes down on the issue.

For example, recently of Palestine Action. It was a nonsense and it took five years of them being able to carry out carry out crimes and advertise them before until they reached the terrorism threshold. So I, I hope the government will, will consider my proposal an extreme protest activity order. And then finally, clearer statutory, clearer statutory measures to prohibit public funding going to bodies that such as kneecap who received a public grant and could not, which could not be taken back by the government despite the promotion of criminal activity and the undermining of democratic governance.
15:35
Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg (Conservative)
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My Lords, I will use my time to

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focus on the. Protection of. Women and girls. And the first issue I wish to raise is on a based abuse.

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is on a based abuse. A crime motivated by the perpetrator's perception that an individual has somehow shamed or may

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shame a family or community. These crimes, which. Include devastating on a. Motivated killings, female

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marriage. Have happened in the. Shadows for too long. And. It's been pointed out.

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It's been pointed out. That there is a lot in this bill, but on a base, abuse. Is not currently mentioned. but.

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but. I want to ask the noble Lord, the minister, whether he. Will incorporate a statutory

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into. The bill. With language strongly. Supported and agreed. By survivors and the. Groups and. Charities that work with them.

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Charities that work with them. Alongside issuing formal guidance to ensure understanding and. Consistency across agencies. Offences related to honour based.

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Offences related to honour based. Abuse continue to have the lowest conviction of all flag crimes and it remains hidden, misunderstood.

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And under prosecuted. Far too often, cases are misidentified or. obscures. The true. Scale of the problem.

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Scale of the problem. And limits the protection available to victims, and collective and. Family involvement is not consistently recognised, and investigations and courts are left without a clear framework to identify and address honour as a

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identify and address honour as a motive. A survivor led and sector by developed. Which. Recognises the. Role of collective.

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Perpetration on a base. Motivations and. The powerful silencing effect. Of. Shame, and this definition would

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Shame, and this definition would provide a consistent basis for. Identification. Recording and intervention and effective protection for those at risk. I also intend to raise where the government will consider adding

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the government will consider adding sentencing. Which. Would ensure that honour based motives are formally recognised by the courts and better reflects. The.

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The. impacts. Of these crimes. The announcement in August.

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That the government does intend to introduce a definition and accompanying guidance was hugely welcome, and. This. Change has been campaigned for

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Change has been campaigned for many years by many people, including Yasmeen Javid, whose daughter Fawzia

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was so tragically murdered in the name of honour. The bill provides the earliest legislative. Opportunity to act on that.

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Commitment, so I hope that the minister will be positive in his response. On other issues relating to women and girls, I fully support to women and girls, I fully support my Noble friend. Baroness Burton's work on regulating online pornographic content, and hope that the government will take the the government will take the opportunity to develop many to deliver many of her recommendations and her powerful report on creating

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and her powerful report on creating a safer world. And I also support my Noble friend, Baroness Irwin, in our ongoing work on image based sexual abuse. Finally.

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Finally. My Lords, I turn. To clause. 191 on the decriminalisation of

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women in relation to abortion. Noble Lords will. Will receive much correspondence on the subject, and I want to use on the subject, and I want to use this time to clarify what clause 191 does and what it does not do. Clause

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191 removes women from the criminal justice system, meaning. They will no longer. Be investigated or prosecuted for having an abortion. What the clause does not do is make abortion legal up to birth. There is no change. The up to birth. There is no change. The 24 limit for 24 week limit there is no change. The ten week limit on telemedicine abortions would still telemedicine abortions would still require two doctor's signatures to be legally provided. Women would still have to meet one of the grounds laid out in the Abortion Act 1967.

And importantly, non-consensual abortion would remain a crime at any gestation. Abortion

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a crime at any gestation. Abortion outside these. Limits. Remain illegal, and anybody, including a medical professional who assisted a women in obtaining an abortion outside of this law, would be liable for prosecution. The reason this clause has been reason this clause has been introduced is because more than 100 women, many of them vulnerable and abused, have been investigated by police in recent years and these investigations have taken many years, and those investigations themselves can prevent them from themselves can prevent them from getting their health care and mental health support and the referral to appropriate support services that appropriate support services that they need.

My Lords, I appreciate the noble Lords want to discuss this clause in more detail in committee, and I very much welcome that. It's supported by leading medical organisations, and I encourage interested noble Lords to read what they have to say. I also wanted to highlight that decriminalised women in relation to abortion is not unusual. It would bring England and Wales in line with Northern Ireland and over 50 countries worldwide, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand and over 31 European jurisdictions and indeed the United States, where women can never be prosecuted for having an abortion.

Those countries have laws that criminalise those who provide an

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abortion, and that will remain the case here. Pleasure to. To follow the noble Lady Baroness

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To follow the noble Lady Baroness Sugg. Congratulations first to my Noble friend, Lord Hanson of Flint, on securing the considerable legal services of monocle friend, Baroness Leavitt. The government is very
15:39
Baroness Chakrabarti Portrait Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
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Leavitt. The government is very lucky to have them both steering this supertanker. There is much to commend its focus on several vulnerable groups, including exploited children, victims of stalking, cooking and so on, and I hope to speak to these parts at committee. There is further scope, I think, to innovate in other areas, genuinely to improve criminal justice. Still, I have some concerns about an arms race begun over 30 years ago and escalated by some

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parts of this measure. There was the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act of 1994. You're Too Young.

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You're Too Young. To Remember began raising public expectations that governments could legislate their way.

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To a harmonious society. Politicians purported to do this even in times of austerity, amidst even in times of austerity, amidst real time cuts to living standards and the justice system, as well as youth, mental health and addiction services, continued rhetorical attacks upon the judiciary and

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attacks upon the judiciary and fiscal attacks on legal aid have left swathes of ordinary people thinking that the law is not. For them.

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For them. It will arrest and prosecute them for a growing array of crimes and them.

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them. From abusive. Employers, landlords. Or. Unaccountable corporations. That

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is why I welcomed. The imminent Hillsborough law. But disillusionment can be

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But disillusionment can be disastrous. Knee jerk politics fights the alligators. That never drains the.

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That never drains the. Swamp. And I fear that we've. Been breeding. Alligators in a. Month in which only populist, far

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Month in which only populist, far right politics thrives. We see this long. Shadow in compromises to due process rights, the unregulated deployment of technology at cost to personal privacy, and always more

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police powers every. Year, yet more. Powers broad, vague and never mirrored by measures vague and never mirrored by measures improving police vetting, training and discipline. In 1994, it was.

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and discipline. In 1994, it was. The end of the right to silence suspicion of stop and search and restrictions on gatherings,

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restrictions on gatherings, featuring music with a. Repetitive beat.

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Yeah, now and for years the target has been non-violent protest. I share the Council of Europe Human

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I share the Council of Europe Human Rights Commissioners concerns about our existing. Public order. Statute book measures proposed. In this bill and.

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In this bill and. Those trailed is likely new government amendments to come at. Committee.

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To restrict cumulative protest protests against asylum hotels. My

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protests against asylum hotels. My Lords make me very anxious, but I. Would no. More ban them than those. Against

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More ban them than those. Against job losses, benefit cuts, environmental degradation, war crimes or racism and anti-Semitism. What would blanket bans on face coverings. Of protests mean for dissidents outside the embassy of an authoritarian foreign power, and authoritarian foreign power, and with all its churches, restrictions on protesting in the vicinity of places of worship could render our capital an extremely un-british protest free zone. Recently, ministers have rightly warned of the

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administration. My Lords, we. Must never write, let alone

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Must never write, let alone legislate for a blank check for potential future anti-democratic potential future anti-democratic abuse. So while today is one for broad brushes and four minutes, I hope noble Lords will come prepared for line by line forensic scrutiny for line by line forensic scrutiny of bill and amendment text in the vital weeks to come. Lords the other place may invoke the will of the

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place may invoke the will of the people, but here we read the small print. Oh God. My Lords.

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My Lords. I'm grateful to the clerks, the. Whips, and to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, for allowing me to change my place.

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In. The running order. Let me declare my interest as the Chair of Common

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Sense Media in the UK, a US not for profit that campaigns for children's safety on. The internet. I had to briefly.

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I had to briefly. Step out of the debate because I. Wanted to take part in a debate on music education in the Moses

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on music education in the Moses room. And that allows me to continue a tradition that I've set up for myself. To always shoehorn. The arts into

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To always shoehorn. The arts into any debate that. extent. I can. Echo the excellent.

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Echo the excellent. Sentiment behind. The noble Baroness Baroness Chakraborty's speech. That.

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There's an interesting. Theme. Developing, I think, during this debate where there is a sort of

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debate where there is a sort of undercurrent, I think, coming from many noble. Lords that do we need endless pieces of criminal legislation, does

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pieces of criminal legislation, does the. Specifics that happen to. Exercise the public mind today,

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Exercise the public mind today, or the political mind, perhaps. And miss other big picture? And I have long campaigned. For the. Importance of. The.

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The. Arts. In the. Criminal justice system. And, of course. The importance.
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15:44
Lord Vaizey of Didcot Portrait Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)
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It is impossible. To legislate for. And I know. That the noble.

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Lord, Lord Timpson, does so much incredible. Work as prisons. Minister and. the. Use of the. Arts.

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Arts. In this. Way, I was very struck. I. Have to say.

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Have to say. By Lord Garnier's speech earlier in this debate, which I think set. This tone about this constant.

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This tone about this constant. Recourse to legislation. And I was reminded that when. I. First became the.

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Arts minister, I inherited the Digital Copyright Act and the new legislation to prosecute people who

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downloaded. Illegal music. And I thought that going after teenagers in their bedroom. Was a fool's errand. There would be.

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There would be. A technology solution. But also the music industry. Found a solution. By using.

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By using. Existing legislation. They use the 1988, I think it was Fraud. Act to prosecute. The. Big websites.

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Big websites. makers. get.

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Things started, to get things more on an even keel. And it's long been a sort of slightly bizarre. Obsession of mine why.

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Obsession of mine why. We don't. Have. As it. Were, a criminal. Code in this country, and. One piece.

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One piece. Of paper, as it were, that lists the criminal offences that would. Allow the government. Of the. Day to do exactly.

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Day to do exactly. What Lord. Garnier was speaking about. To actually. Cross-reference whether the offences that they're now. Bringing into law.

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Bringing into law. Do already exist, or whether they're existing offences. That could cover the. Current passion.

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Current passion. For example, I. Bow to no one in wanting to defend. Retail workers.

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Retail workers. From attacks from. Increasingly aggressive shoplifters. But I want to prevent

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shoplifters. But I want to prevent everyone from being attacked in this way. Do we need a specific. Offence for retail. Workers, or does this merely.

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Workers, or does this merely. Clog up the system? And indeed. To a. Certain extent, legislation like this misses.

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The big picture. The noble Lord Viscount Goschen referred. To the merger of.

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Police forces. That is long overdue, and we've. Also referred. In this debate to clogged cases. And having said all that.

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And having said all that. Of course, let me now do a complete reverse. Ferret channel, my

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inner Lord Walney. If you like, and say that I also wanted. To. Speak in this debate to. Offer my. Unequivocal support to Baroness.

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Unequivocal support to Baroness. Burton. She and. Many. Other noble Baronesses. And noble peers.

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Have done. Incredible work. In bringing the criminal statute up to date in terms of the way

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up to date in terms of the way technology has fundamentally changed how pornography is. Used and.

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Used and. Has fundamentally impact the. Lives of young people. And anything that can make that.

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And anything that can make that. More coherent. And allow us to have greater powers to crack. Down on this.

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Down on this. Great technological scourge. I will support. The report on. Thank you. My Lords.

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My Lords. There are great many aspects of this bill with which I agree. But my understanding is. Being greatly enhanced.

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greatly enhanced. By today's debate. I'm uncomfortable, however, with

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clause 191. Decriminalisation, abortion up to significant.
15:47
Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell Portrait Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell (Conservative)
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Shift in the law on abortion. In the UK. Over the coming months.

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Many arguments about clause 191, drawing on the diverse expertise of this House. But I.

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But I. Wish to focus on three. Points parliamentary procedure. Unanswered questions.

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Unanswered questions. And the Salisbury Convention. On the first point, it should be noted. That clause.

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That clause. 191 has received precious. Little parliamentary scrutiny. By way of comparison, consider the.

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Level of scrutiny. The both House of given. The assisted dying bill. That bill had more.

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Than. 100 hours of debate. In the other place. Clause 1191.

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Clause 1191. In contrast, had. Just a few. Hours. That bill had an impact.

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Hours. That bill had an impact. Assessment of more than 150 pages. Clause 191, in. Contrast, is not covered in the

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Contrast, is not covered in the Crime and Policing Bill's impact assessment, and up to. Date information is not.

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Date information is not. take. Place through. The pills by post ski. So if the. Assisted dying bill.

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Assisted dying bill. Has not been sufficiently. Scrutinised. As many have suggested, then. Clearly the scrutiny of clause.

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191 is. Insufficient. Secondly, decriminalising abortion raises. A plethora.

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A plethora. Of unanswered questions. And often. When. Questions have been asked of the

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government, they received weak replies. For example. The noble Lady Boris Foster have Aghadrumsee who is.

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Aghadrumsee who is. Not in a place. Sadly table. The following 6th. Of October.

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Of October. to. Ask. His Majesty's Government. What

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His Majesty's Government. What assessment they made of the potential risks to vulnerable. Women, including. Those who may be subject to.

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Coercion or. Abuse if abortion were to be decriminalised. And what safeguarding measures they plan to

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put in place to. Protect them. A very sensible question. Sadly. The government's.

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The government's. Response on the. 10th of October. Did not. Inspire confidence.

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It began simply, and I quote. No assessment has been made. I questioned how it meant.

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I questioned how it meant. To vote or indeed debate. Clause 191 when. No assessments be made.

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No assessments be made. Of the consequences. It clearly. Needs much more scrutiny.

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Needs much more scrutiny. Finally. It's worth noting. The Salisbury. Convention. Does not apply to clause. 191. Because.

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Because. This proposal is not. Included in. The government's. omission. Is perhaps unsurprising.

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Is perhaps unsurprising. Because it does not command. The support of the public. Polling from Ipsos earlier this year.

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Indicate that 63%. Of people. Support the status quo. Of. 24 weeks.

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24 weeks. And polling from. Whitestone Insight in. May showed that 62% of. Voters

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May showed that 62% of. Voters agree. That having an illegal abortion. Should continue to. Be. House.

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House. our. Commitment to scrutinising. effectively.

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effectively. And providing necessary. Time to. Challenge how legislation will be Lords.

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Lords. Will. Be. Tabling amendments. To clause 191A committee stage.

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191A committee stage. I'll be looking closely. At these amendments. To ensure the clause receives the level of scrutiny. And merits for.

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The profound impact to have. On society. Yeah, yeah. My Lords.
15:51
Lord Cromwell Portrait Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
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My Lords. Economic crime in particular. Fraud is now the leading form of UK.

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Fraud is now the leading form of UK. laundering. And. Bribery. It costs the. UK billions.

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UK billions. Of pounds each year. This also undermines public trust, public confidence and also economic growth.

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confidence and also economic growth. The good. News, my Lords. Is that enforcement against these economic crimes and associated economic crimes and associated confiscation of assets, while complex, generates substantial receipts. Some £566 million per year currently. And yet, my Lords, while we entrust the police and other law agencies with more and more tasks,

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mostly both difficult and vital. The very agencies. Responsible for. Securing these funds from

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Securing these funds from criminals face acute resource challenges, particularly in recruiting and retaining specialist.

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recruiting and retaining specialist. Staff. Updating skills and modernising ageing IT. Systems and capabilities.

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Systems and capabilities. As a number of other. Speakers across the House have referred to

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across the House have referred to today so powerfully, I suggest to the House, and not for the first time, that those. Enforcing the laws.

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Enforcing the laws. We so carefully. Create and pass here. Must be properly. Resourced to

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Must be properly. Resourced to enforce them. An obvious means of. Doing this. Would be to use the confiscated

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Would be to use the confiscated criminal assets via a ring fenced fund, to resource the agencies concerned. There are two existing

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schemes. In this area. The Economic. Crime Levy. Is an.

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Annual charge on UK. Businesses regulated under the Money Laundering Regulations. This private sector contribution.

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contribution. Could logically be matched by greater reinvestment. Of enforcement receipts. The

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Of enforcement receipts. The current Asset Recovery subject. To the.

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To the. Curiously named. Angularity Rules, which. Means that money not used by the year end, which is sometimes just weeks away from when the money is obtained, is lost. A ring fenced

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fund would enable stronger. Agencies. Which would then deliver greater. Asset recovery.

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Asset recovery. And confiscation, which reinvested into the fight against economic crime, would establish a

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economic crime, would establish a investment. And effectiveness. Beyond the obvious capacity and effectiveness obvious capacity and effectiveness benefits from such targeted resources, a ring fenced fund would. Demonstrate to.

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Demonstrate to. government. Is exploring all avenues. To. And.

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And. My Lords, there is a certain. Fiscal poetry. Here.

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Here. Not a phrase one hears very often, I believe. In. This would all.

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In. This would all. Be achieved without adding to anyone's tax. Burdens, but instead

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by making the criminals pay a form of polluter. Pays. If you will. Yeah, yeah. My Lords, in the House of

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My Lords, in the House of Commons, an amendment to this bill was put down to require the government simply. To.

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To. Investigate the viability of such a ring fenced economic crime fighting fund. Using a proportion of fighting fund. Using a proportion of the assets that I've referred to. This cross-party. Proposal secured broad parliamentary support in the

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broad parliamentary support in the House of Commons. It was signed. By 28 MPs from Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Green parties at report stage in the Commons. Unfortunately, there was insufficient time to debate the

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amendment, but. There were productive. Conversations with the relevant

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ministers. Just underline again, my Lords, the amendment did not suggest, and I do. Not. Suggest, that. The Bill is. Used to establish.

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Used to establish. Such a fund, simply that its viability is investigated. I have already shared with noble Lord, the already shared with noble Lord, the Minister, that his ideas and indeed a draft of the amendment. I look

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forward to hearing the noble Lord the Minister's thoughts on this. Subject when winding up. This debate, and I would also

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This debate, and I would also welcome a meeting to discuss it with him. Yeah.

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Yeah. where. Pretty much. All of us carry in our pocket the means to access pornographic content

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means to access pornographic content illegal. For. Any shop to sell it to any adult,

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Any shop to sell it to any adult, anywhere in the country. And until. Very recently. Children have had ready access to

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this extreme content, as the noble Lady Lady Hazarika said. And it. Bears repeating. 44% of children

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Bears repeating. 44% of children see depictions of rape in pornography before they turn 18. I pornography before they turn 18. I think everyone in this House would accept that since the early 2000, there has been a huge change in who sees pornography and what sees pornography and what pornography they are seeing. However, by and large, the regulatory framework has not changed. It is not designed for the digital age, it is not designed for the smartphone age, and it is certainly not designed for the age of AI, where anyone can generate a pornographic image in seconds.

My lord, our legislation must catch up. The provisions in the Online Safety Act and the Data Act are an important first step, but more is needed. While running the number ten policy unit for Rishi Sunak, I pushed for an independent review to look at the problems associated with online pornography and to advise the government on what could be done.

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That review was established in 2023 and my noble. Friend Baroness Burton. Was appointed lead reviewer. I am

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Was appointed lead reviewer. I am extremely glad that the current government shared our concerns and continued to support the work of the independent Review, which we have heard published a comprehensive and shocking report earlier this year. Its thanks to my noble friend, Baroness Burton and her team that we now have a much clearer understanding of what is happening understanding of what is happening online and the impact it's having in the real world. As she set out in her earlier speech. Our failure to regulate online pornography has regulate online pornography has facilitated an industry that is increasingly violent, degrading and increasingly violent, degrading and misogynistic.

It's an industry which directs users towards ever more extreme content, and in doing so,
15:57
15:57
15:57
Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson Portrait Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson (Conservative)
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harmful content. Content which goes unchecked because we have failed to apply our existing settled laws and regulation to the online world. In the pre-internet age, we had a broadly effective mechanism for regulating pornography through classification. We balanced the rights of consenting adults with the needs to protect society. But over 40 years, legislation has ensured that pornographic videos are regulated by the British Board of Film Classification. Depictions of illegal activity such as rape and harmful activity like violent sexual activity are banned.

However, this regulation has never been extended to cover online pornography. My Lords, there is nothing rational about a system that says content is illegal and harmful when watched on a DVD, but legal and permissible when watched on the internet. If we still believe that it's wrong and harmful for adults to watch depictions of incest on video, Blu-ray or DVD, how can we believe that it's that content should be readily available online? In this bill, the government has a chance to act decisively, and I'm extremely grateful for the commitment to bring forward an amendment to ban depictions of strangulation and suffocation in pornography.

That's an important start. But during the passage of this bill, I hope the House will agree to go further. My starting point is that we should apply the same standards to films that are distributed online, as we already do to those that are distributed offline. It raises legitimate questions of enforcement and regulatory capacity, and those are valid concerns, and I hope that we'll debate them at committee stage. However, I do not believe it should raise concerns about freedom of expression. After all, I'm simply proposing that we apply and enforce our existing standards consistently.

Unless, of course, some would like to argue that our current laws for offline pornography have indeed been stifling our freedoms for decades and should now be relaxed. In which case I look forward to debating that. To my Lords, I know that regulation in the digital age is not straightforward, and having spent many years in government, I have every sympathy for the current government who may well think this is simply too hard to do. It is hard to do. But I would say to them, it's too important not to do, which is why I will be supporting the amendments in this space, including those from my Noble friends Baroness

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own and Baroness Burton. In my Lords, I wish to address three issues. Firstly.

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three issues. Firstly. The long awaited. Duty of mandatory reporting. Of child sexual abuse. A key

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Of child sexual abuse. A key recommendation of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, but with a strengthened and more encompassing. Base and.
15:59
Baroness Featherstone Portrait Baroness Featherstone (Liberal Democrat)
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encompassing. Base and. A key issue. Supported by. The. NSPCC. This mandatory. Provision is borne of tragedy.

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borne of tragedy. It reflects too many cases where children found the courage. To speak, and yet nothing was done. But whilst the principle is right, the drafting of it stands is too narrow, too timid and.

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Risks being. Ineffective in practice. First. The. Duty to report is triggered only

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when a. Disclosure is made. Or abuses witnessed, yet most abuse is not disclosed and rarely professionals. settings.

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settings. Often. Encounter warning signs, not confessions. The duty must

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extend to situations where. There are reasonable. Grounds to suspect abuse. Secondly, the bill currently imposes no.

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imposes no. Real sanction. For failure to. consequence. Is not a law that.

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Is not a law that. Can change culture. And there should be a clear. Offence for deliberate. Failure to act when the.

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to act when the. Child's disclosure is known. Thirdly, there is a risk that the present wording could sweep in

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present wording could sweep in minor, consensual. Activity between young people or undermine trust in health services. And that must be.

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And that must be. Corrected because the duty should target exploitation and coercion, target exploitation and coercion, not teenage relationships or confidential medical advice. confidential medical advice. Fourthly, implementation matters and we will need proper training triage we will need proper training triage mechanisms to prevent overreporting and resources for local authorities and police to respond swiftly and sensitively. The second issue is that we need to introduce a penalty on the intention to conceal, because all too often the orthodoxy is for individuals to feel a pressure to protect the organisation which they serve too big to fail and individuals are too scared to report, and individuals who are protecting their institution must risk penalty.

My third issue is that when I served in the Home Office, I had the privilege of introducing and funding the ugly Mug scheme. The principle behind it was not controversial. When a sex worker experiences violence or a threat, it enables them to report it anonymously and so others are warned, and that information is the only line of defence. And it has saved lives since it was introduced, prevented repeated attacks and encourage people who would never otherwise go near the police to start trusting them again.

New clause one has moved in. The Commons directly implicates online platforms and intermediaries that currently help sex workers publish adverts or manage listings, because that's one of the main ways that the ugly mug scheme engages through alert listing of known bad actors and facilitating reporting, and it has been truly successful in helping protect sex workers from dangerous clients. And whatever one's view of prostitution, no one should be assaulted, raped or

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murdered for the work they do. Ugly month was never about endorsing prostitution. It was about reducing. Harm.

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Harm. And preventing homicide. And the evidence is clear where harm evidence is clear where harm reduction schemes exist, sex workers are better able to report violence, share intelligence and access justice where they are removed. People go underground and it is a dangerous illusion to think that by dangerous illusion to think that by abolishing tools that keep people safe, we abolish the reality of prostitution. We do not. We simply make it more dangerous. My Lords, the duty of ever any government, the duty of ever any government, whatever their moral stance, is to protect life and prevent violence.

Ugly Margaret does precisely that quietly and effectively and at very modest cost. Closing it would not

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modest cost. Closing it would not advance women's safety, it would imperil it. Yeah. My Lords.

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There are. Necessary provisions. In the bill. But there is also. Window dressing. That's why we.

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That's why we. All deplore assaults. On Shopworkers. We don't need this new measure. There are good laws of.
16:03
Lord Sandhurst Portrait Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
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There are good laws of. Theft. Robbery and assault. What we lack the resources to

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What we lack the resources to arrest and prosecute. Last night, the. Metropolitan Police announced that. London will. Be.

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Left with just two police stations with front counters operating 24.

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Hours a day. Ten more. Are. Set. To close under. Cost cutting measures. That is

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not good enough. Today's times reports that family. Drug and alcohol courts face

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Drug and alcohol courts face closure, yet each such court. Saves closure, yet each such court. Saves local authorities £58,000 in care costs and £15,000 in legal costs. costs and £15,000 in legal costs. Each such case, instead of chasing headlines, government should be funding the police, the CPS.

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funding the police, the CPS. The those. On legal aid and the courts

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On legal aid and the courts properly. The Department of. Justice has. Been starved of money by the previous government. I accept. That and.

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Is not being. Helped by the current one. Clause 39. Is. Well intentioned.

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Well intentioned. It will show shoplifters who regularly steal low value goods. That. This may be treated as a serious.

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Offence. Triable in the Crown. Court. But it's important. Really important, that any. The prosecutor.

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The prosecutor. And not the defendant. Can go on to elect Crown Court trial. If not,

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to elect Crown Court trial. If not, our Crown courts will be overwhelmed. Backlogs are already years long. I welcome.

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The. Measures in part eight. Which. Are directed at electronic.

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Are directed at electronic. Devices to steal cars. These are necessary and overdue. The measures. To address so-called sim. Farms.

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Farms. Are also to be welcomed. I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord.

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Folks has. Had. To say about the changes. Proposed under clause 82.

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Proposed under clause 82. To the law of limitation. These are unnecessary and will be

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These are unnecessary and will be unhelpful. Finally, I turn to clause. 191 to. The decriminalisation.

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Of abortion. I make it. Plain I'm not. In principle opposed to abortion. But there was no. Prior scrutiny.

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Prior scrutiny. No public consultation. The benign intention, because I

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accept the benign. Intention of. Not criminalising. A. Woman who aborts her own child.

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Woman who aborts her own child. Risks new evils. Women may be harassed into abortion without the safeguards of the current law. And.

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And. A woman will be permitted without medical. Advice to abort a baby. Right up to due birth.

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Right up to due birth. Date, right up to due birthday. Just think about that. It is a

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human being at that stage on any measure. And what if the baby survives but is damaged? Will they.

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Sue the mother? I agree. With what my. Naval friend Lord.

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Naval friend Lord. Elliot and Millfield Fel. Has had to say. About this provision. We must

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About this provision. We must look at it very carefully. Such an important change to the. Law regarding human life. Should be based on.

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Should be based on. Proper inquiry. necessary. An.

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Appropriate measured. Change in. Measured. Circumstances to the

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Measured. Circumstances to the Abortion Act 1967 to wind up my Lords. 200 and. 40s to.

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Debate 400. Pages is not very much a committee. We must be allocated proper time. It is likely

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allocated proper time. It is likely that more baubles will be added to the Christmas tree. Thank you. I welcome the.

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I welcome the. Noble Lady. The Minister to her role. Who introduced. This large bill with.
16:07
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
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This large bill with. Admirable clarity. The need to address. Mandatory reporting of.

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Mandatory reporting of. Abuse of children. Is urgent. But this bill. Should go wider than sexual.

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Should go wider than sexual. exploitation. Of children is. Associated with all.

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all. Types of abuse. As physical abuse occurs, the. Abuser tends.

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To. Use the loophole. Initially to. Claim it's reasonable. Chastisement and to avoid.

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Chastisement and to avoid. Action being taken. Yet this is linked. To increasing violence, sexual

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To increasing violence, sexual abuse and emotional exploitation. Such abuse and driving children to Such abuse and driving children to crime can happen. Within the home. The perpetrator grooming and using

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and. Abusing a child. Is not always from outside the home. The child.

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The child. Deeply disturbed. Is pushed. Into criminal. Activity, which.

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Escalates from relatively minor. Offences to very serious crime with frightening speed.

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There is an. Urgent need to ensure that children are protected from ongoing children are protected from ongoing exploitation. These children are subject to significant threats. Such

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subject to significant threats. Such as that they or their family will be killed. Some have. Acid or heat burns.

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Acid or heat burns. A scalded or starved, all as ways of intimidating. 90% of these

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of intimidating. 90% of these children do not. Disclose who's abusing them. The child is terrified. They

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The child is terrified. They cannot protect themselves. Many struggle with the idea that the child is both. A victim.

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And a perpetrator at the. Same time. When it comes.

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Same time. When it comes. To the use. Earlier on. Of this. Loophole of claiming reasonable.

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Loophole of claiming reasonable. Chastisement. I think it's important. To remember that bruises do not show on skin.

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show on skin. Of colour. Children need equal protection. From assault. And battery.

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And battery. Just as adults have. That

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loophole needs to be closed. The exploitation. Of children. With the. Exploitation.

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Exploitation. Children Protection orders is. Long overdue.

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It will provide protection of the child, allowing services. To intervene earlier and disrupt the.

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the. Business model of criminal gangs that are. Controlling these children. Which even. Often continue to operate.

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to operate. From inside. Prison. At times. But the defendants for the

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perpetrator of. Reasonably assuming that. The young person is over 18.

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Leaves the door. Open to. Victimising teenagers. Without protection.

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We mustn't think that by only requiring mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, we will be adequately protecting children. And on a. Completely different subject, if we are to protect all on our streets, we must lower the drink

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drive limit to 20mg per 100ml of blood. To leave it as high as it is. Leaves lives endangered.

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Leaves lives endangered. Every day.

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Every day. My Lords, I am deeply concerned

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My Lords, I am deeply concerned about the process or lack of it. Around clause 191, which was tacked Around clause 191, which was tacked to the. End of an unrelated bill via a Backbench backbench amendment with a Backbench backbench amendment with just 46 minutes of backbench debate, many MPs wanting to speak were many MPs wanting to speak were unable to. Do so. This is not a
16:11
Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest Portrait Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest (Conservative)
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unable to. Do so. This is not a responsible way to make law, as many other noble Lords have said. I fear that there would be. An increase.

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An increase. In the number of late term abortions with no medical

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abortions with no medical supervision whatsoever, particularly as women continue to be able to obtain. These pills.

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Through. The post. Without an in-person consultation. This came.

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This came. In during the special circumstances of the pandemic, but it has not been rescinded as it.

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it has not been rescinded as it. Should be. Even though. We are no longer in such.

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A health emergency. Recent figures show that 54,000 women were

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admitted to NHS hospitals in England for the treatment of complications abortion. Pills.

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Pills. A 50%. Rise from. The.

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Figures before the pandemic. Analysis of accredited official statistics published by. NHS England statistics published by. NHS England and the office for Health Improvement and Disparities, shows that 1 in 17 of all women self-managing their abortion at home was. Subsequently readmitted for was. Subsequently readmitted for hospital treatment. This clause was scarcely improved that I fear two scarcely improved that I fear two things one, that we are creating a modern day equivalent of backstreet modern day equivalent of backstreet abortion, and second, that it will assist the coercion of women into assist the coercion of women into late.

Terminations by coercive and abusive partners. They could. Just argue that this.

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argue that this. Is legal now. But this clause would also remove

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But this clause would also remove the vital protection for unborn babies mature enough. To survive babies mature enough. To survive outside of the womb. There is no popular demand or pressure for this

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form of infanticide, and if the public were made fully aware. Of. This, I am sure that the great

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This, I am sure that the great majority would regard this clause not as progressive, but barbaric. I

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not as progressive, but barbaric. I am profoundly worried about this clause and will be seeking to address it. In committee.

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In committee. My Lords, this bill presents a unique opportunity to close long standing accountability gaps in the UK's universal jurisdiction laws and
16:13
Baroness Kennedy of Shaws Portrait Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Labour)
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UK's universal jurisdiction laws and will ensure, if the amendments were received, ensure that perpetrators of the world's most serious crimes can be brought to justice on British soil. number.

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Of occasions, advocate for a review of the universal jurisdiction laws as they operate in this country. Now.

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Now. Many of you may ask what universal jurisdiction is all about. UK courts can prosecute certain international crimes under the principle of universal jurisdiction. It's a legal framework that allows

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It's a legal framework that allows states to pursue justice. For. The most serious offences. Committed abroad, even when the case Committed abroad, even when the case has no direct connection to the UK. These crimes include genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and torture. Universal jurisdiction reflects the global consensus that such crimes are so grave that they demand accountability wherever they occur. However, there's a certain problem.

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problem. Here in the United Kingdom. In that our organisations who are

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In that our organisations who are involved in human rights have seen over and over again ways in which failure to.

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failure to. Prosecute takes. Place, because we require

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Place, because we require residency and nationality. person.

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person. Who's present in the UK sometimes coming to speak at a conference, sometimes coming to find a university for one of their children, but they can't be prosecuted because they are not a British national and do not perhaps have residency in this country at a time when such crimes, grievous crimes, are rising globally. Reform is.

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Necessary and. It would uphold the. Rule of law, enhance.

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Rule of law, enhance. National security and help build safer communities both. At. Home and abroad. And we are.

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Home and abroad. And we are. Renowned worldwide. For our commitment to the rule of law. Britain probably leads the world. And.

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And. Yet there is this serious gap at present. The UK's ability to

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present. The UK's ability to prosecute grave international crimes under universal jurisdiction is severely limited, as. I've just said.

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I've just said. And it was under the International Criminal Courts. Act. That. Prosecutions, it was declared that prosecutions can only be

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that prosecutions can only be brought for genocide, war crimes. And crimes. Against humanity, for the suspect is a UK national.

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Or resident. It means that individuals accused

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It means that individuals accused of serious international crimes into this country and they do not face justice. And we can give you justice. And we can give you examples of that having happened. And it's illogical because we can And it's illogical because we can prosecute torturers because under the torture convention and the law

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that we use to introduce that as a domestic crime, but we could prosecute those whom we. Knew. Were internationally.

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Knew. Were internationally. Renowned torturers, that those we can prosecute, but we cannot

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prosecute these others. On the crimes that I've I've listed war crimes, genocide. Crimes against.

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Crimes against. Humanity, sexual. Crimes which have been weaponized as. Weapons of war.

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Weapons of war. And so the Joint Committee of Human Rights, on which I sit in, which is led by. Lord Oldham.

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Lord Oldham. Published two reports this year, one relating to this bill, but one relating to this bill, but another relating to Daesh, ISIL, people who've returned. From people who've returned. From criminal activities abroad and part of the recommendations in both those of the recommendations in both those reports, which have been produced by the joint committee, recommend that the joint committee, recommend that there be a review of the universal jurisdiction laws in this country. So Ken McDonald Casey, former So Ken McDonald Casey, former Director of Public Prosecutions, pointed out that it was illogical pointed out that it was illogical that we can prosecute for torture, but we can't prosecute for all these but we can't prosecute for all these other grievous crimes.

And the example I wanted to give just briefly, was that of a Rwandan briefly, was that of a Rwandan general character, Webb, who has been known to committed many crimes been known to committed many crimes and has come to this country and yet not been in any way detained or prosecuted. And so I strongly recommend that this is something that the House will consider in the fullness of time, along with the many valuable recommendations that have been made in the course of other speeches.



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And also Chair of the Duke of Edinburgh Awards. While I broadly welcome this Bill, I do have a welcome this Bill, I do have a number of reservations, but I do strongly support the work of the noble Lady Baroness Brendan Burton.
16:18
Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
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noble Lady Baroness Brendan Burton. Apologies in her work on tackling pornography, and I'm sorry to say that my noble friend Lord Hogan Howe is not in his place at the moment, because I do support also the fervour in which he wishes to improve cycling safety. I'm going to concentrate my comments on the mandatory reporting of child sex abuse, and I have a Private Member's Bill on this topic, and I'd like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hanson, for responding to me at Second Reading.

Tom Perry, who previously worked with mandate, now has said, and I quote, among the 82% of countries in the rest of the world that mandate prescribed personnel to report child sex abuse, none employ such. I don't approach the impact assessment for this. Bill says there will only be an increase of around eight extra reports per annum per police force. Hardly groundbreaking. In April 2025, the Home Office published a progress update on tackling child sex abuse and found that the scale of child sexual abuse is truly staggering.

Children are 20% of the population, but are the victims in 40% of all sexual offences. The Local Government Association estimates that only 1 in 3 children who are sexually abused by an adult told someone. The centre for Crime and Justice Studies estimates that 85% of child sexual abuse goes undetected and unreported, while Home Office update states that the government is committed to tackling child sex abuse and will respond to the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse report. But a system that requires abuse to be disclosed by the child, witnessed by the reporter, or confessed by the perpetrator before a report is mandated is just far too weak.

What His Majesty's Government proposes fall short of the recommendations made in October. The recommendation for mixer is for anyone who is in a position of trust, whereas the scope of the proposed bill is much reduced. This bill excludes leadership and supervisory roles from the duty to report. Furthermore, only disclosed and witnessed abuse is covered. There is no criminal penalties proposed for a failure to report. Suspected child sexual abuse may continue to go unreported with no repercussions. Lastly, the confidentiality duties for religious and medical sectors remain open to interpretation or to possible future exemption.

The report shows that international evidence supports the view that England and Wales ought to introduce mandatory reporting laws, to enable the police and local authorities to better identify children in need of protection, and we must learn from other areas where mandatory reporting has been implemented, such as female genital mutilation, and we must endeavour to ensure that we have a clear, comprehensive and

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effective law. My Lords are children deserve better. My Lords, I welcome the noble

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My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness the Minister to her new role, and I very much look forward to working with her. I further to working with her. I further welcome the clarification that this bill brings to the law around spiking and the new offence of.
16:20
Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge Portrait Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge (Conservative)
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Taking non-consensual intimate supporting. My noble friend, Lady Sugg. On.

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On. Her. Amendments. On honour based abuse and my noble friend Lady Burton on her

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amendments on online pornography. I want to take. congratulate. And thank the noble. Lady Burton for.

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Her. Brilliant review. And her tireless. Efforts pushing for comprehensive law on online pornography. I turn law on online pornography. I turn now to the new taking offence. I greatly welcome the implementation

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of the Law Commission recommendation to update the. Pre-existing voyeurism and upskirting offences and implement a. Single.

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Single. Taking offence. I am. Very. Pleased to see that it is vitally

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Pleased to see that it is vitally a consent based offence, removing prove. The motivation.

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Of the perpetrator that is featured in previous iterations. Of image based.

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Of image based. vital. That. We. Further strengthen. This offence by increasing the

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This offence by increasing the time limits prosecutors have to bring forward. Charges so that victims are not. Inadvertently timed

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victims are not. Inadvertently timed out by the six month time limit of a summary offence. In February. Of this year. The government gave.

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The government gave. Me an undertaking to extend the time limits on the non-consensual creation offence in the data bill

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creation offence in the data bill after it was highlighted. By the campaign. Group. Not Your Porn. The extension of the time limit

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The extension of the time limit here means that for the creation offence, victims have three years

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from when the offence is committed, or alternatively from when. The CPS. Has enough evidence to prosecute.

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Has enough evidence to prosecute. achieved. A legal precedent in extending time limits on image based sexual. Abuse.

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Abuse. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness the minister in her summing up, could commit to extending the time limits available in both the new taking offence and the pre-existing sharing offence.

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To ensure that all image based. Abuse offences have parity within

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the law. I was pleased to see the updating of the sentencing code to reflect the new taking. Offence, and clarify that the photograph or film.

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photograph or film. To which the. Offence relate. And anything containing. It, is to be regarded as used for

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It, is to be regarded as used for offence. However. I am keen that we look into. Further ways to ensure that this

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Further ways to ensure that this content is not kept by perpetrators. And. Remains offline in perpetuity.

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Remains offline in perpetuity. Further, I will continue. My. Work with survivors of this abuse and charities to explore ways

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abuse and charities to explore ways in which this content. Can be removed from the. Internet as rapidly as possible.

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Internet as rapidly as possible. Additionally. I was concerned. That there. Does. Not seem to be a sufficient

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Does. Not seem to be a sufficient definition of what it is to take an image or video in the offence, and therefore I would be grateful if the noble Baroness the Minister could

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noble Baroness the Minister could confirm that the definition of taking will include screenshotting. In the.

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In the. 2022 Law Commission report on intimate image abuse. The example. Was given where a person may

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Was given where a person may consent to being in an intimate state in a video call. But not

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state in a video call. But not them. The Law Commission. Concluded that taking a screenshot of a video call should

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fall under the definition. Of taking. Because this conduct creates a

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still image that does not otherwise exist. I turn. Now to the issue of spiking, which my colleague in the Other which my colleague in the Other place, Jo Robertson, has highlighted. Alongside the campaigners Colin and Mandy McKee,

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campaigners Colin and Mandy McKee, whose son Greg tragically died after a spiking incident at university. Whilst the.

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Whilst the. Clarification of spiking in this new offence is very welcome, I echoed the point made by.

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My noble. Friend Lady Kofi. That that is. Concerned that the intention element may be too narrow and that it may not allow for cases where a person has been spiked that does not fall into the category of injure, aggressive or annoying. My Lord, this bill includes positive steps

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this bill includes positive steps and I look forward to working with the government and noble Lords to strengthen it. My Lords, it's a pleasure to

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My Lords, it's a pleasure to follow Baroness Hoey and I work. That she has done on some. Of. The.
16:24
Lord Cashman Portrait Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)
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The. Issues that we are addressing in this Bill. I congratulate. To Baroness Leavitt. On opening the.

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On opening the. Second Reading. Of this juggernaut. Of a bill. And she is. A welcome addition to the

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frontbench. there. Is much to. Welcome in this. Bill. But we must.

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Also recognise that there. Are deep concerns. To non-governmental.

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Organisations that I hold in high. Regard and. Across a wide. Spectrum. Have expressed. Deep reservations.

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Deep reservations. Therefore. It is vital that the government. Gets the equation right. And ensures. That there.

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That there. Is a balancing. Of. Rights and protections. The opportunity are. The Noble Lords. Have said.

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Have said. To widely. Will. Be in. Detailed committee. Work. And I.

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And I. Eagerly await. The amendments. That will be introduced. By the government. To make all existing. Strands of

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hate, crime. And aggravated offence. omissions.

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omissions. In relation to the needs. Of the traveller, Gypsy and. Roma communities. My Lords hate.

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Roma communities. My Lords hate. Crime continues to rise. And therefore. Government. Action is to be welcomed. Those

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Action is to be welcomed. Those who. Encourage and promote hate crime, whether. Online or in print or on the. Streets. And.

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And. Empower the thugs who ultimately take violent action. The litmus test. Of any civilised.

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Of any civilised. Country is. That we all enjoy the. Equal. Protection of. The law and. The.

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Universal freedoms. And obligations. Which are basic. Human rights. Yet online.

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Hate crime increases and is sadly often defended. By those who. Should know better.

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Elon Musk amongst them. People are routinely. and.

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and. Victimised because of their religion, their belief. Their disability, their transgender, lesbian.

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transgender, lesbian. nonconforming. Or because of their. Race or more. To attack and.

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To attack and. Denigrate. Such people. And to. Portray them as. A threat to. Others is.

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Others is. In. My opinion, to debase the. Very society. expression.

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expression. Is not the. Freedom to incite violence. Whoever incites. Hate or.

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Hate or. Violence or carries it. Out should be held. Accountable. And the law. Must. Be applied equally.

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Be applied equally. So therefore, I have no. government. In. Their attempts.

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Their attempts. Through this bill to. Create a. Better and more equal society. Like other.

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Like other. not. Least in relation. To the Bill's public. Order provisions. And. I.

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I. Share reservations. Expressed by the Joint Committee. On Human Rights. As well as the Constitution

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As well as the Constitution Committee of your Lordships' House. The right. To protest. Is an. Essential freedom. Protests often offend.

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And. Often discomfort. And that. Is a price, I believe. Worth.

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Worth. counter-protest. My Lords, is. Not un-british.

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It is how. conducted. That matters. And I am one of 16.

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Members. Of your lordships House that. Voted. Against the proscription of Palestine action because.

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The case. Was not made. And has not. Been. Made, and therefore. All restrictive.

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All restrictive. Actions by the state must be open, transparent and the evidence of such decisions.

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of such decisions. Clear for all to see. In conclusion, if this bill helps to make our country safer and

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to make our country safer and stronger than it is. To be welcomed. But it must strike the. Right balance in protecting. The essential.

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The essential. Otherwise. It will. Do more harm and.

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Do more harm and. Create further divisions. My associate. Myself completely. With the intervention by the.

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With the intervention by the. Noble Baroness Baroness Chakrabarti. We need to return, my. Lords to. Being. A.

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Country where we. another. Where we. Respect difference. And celebrate somebody.

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And celebrate somebody. Else's right to disagree. With us. No one. Has anything to. Fear. From equality, the equal.

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Protection of. The law, and the equal obligation to abide. By the.

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By the. Same laws. That is the litmus society.

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It is not defined. By draping. Oneself in a flag. Or the proclamation of patriotism, or.

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patriotism, or. The defining. Of Britishness by the claim of some right or another, or how.

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And when we make. Our voices heard. The essence of a civilised

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The essence of a civilised society is defined in its. Treatment of the most defamed, the most. Disfavoured.

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Those shunned and misrepresented. Britishness is. When we return to being a.

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Better, fairer, more generous country. If this bill can help us move. In that. Direction, it is.

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A. Bill to be welcomed on. On.

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On. I would like to also add my congratulations to the Minister. And particularly the skill.

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In introducing such a wide ranging bill. My Lords, my interest ranging bill. My Lords, my interest is parochial in the sense there are many subjects here that require the appropriate attention and scrutiny. appropriate attention and scrutiny. But as a previous general secretary of the retail Union, somebody who

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has been involved in the issue of retail crime for. Many years. I want to try and bring in, in
16:30
Lord Hannett of Everton Portrait Lord Hannett of Everton (Labour)
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I want to try and bring in, in the short time available, the impact on retail workers into this chamber. Some months ago, I introduced a Some months ago, I introduced a debate in this chamber on retail crime, and there was many speakers.

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In fact, there was universal support. Why wouldn't it be. On the subject on the abuse of

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On the subject on the abuse of workers. There are nearly 3 million workers. There are nearly 3 million workers in retail now in 2003. I had the responsibility and the pleasure the responsibility and the pleasure to introduce in retail in my union the Freedom from Fear campaign. Now, the Freedom from Fear campaign. Now, it sounds very dramatic, but it was born out of necessity where there born out of necessity where there was such systematic verbal and physical abuse. What are the physical abuse.

What are the criticisms of many members of retail workers where politicians listening? Now, of course, politicians can't Now, of course, politicians can't resolve the ills of society with one clause. But I say to the ministers, the message you sent out by this standalone clause is significant. The attention it received in my union says politicians don't only make speeches, but they also make speeches, but they also conclude actions. And for me, it's a conclusion of hard work. Now, I conclusion of hard work.

Now, I could give many examples of bringing could give many examples of bringing to life the effect of verbal and physical abuse. Time didn't allow. So I'll quote a couple. But before I do, I just want to say verbal abuse, which might seem not a victimless crime. It's just something that people do when they can and don't

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get their way in a store. Verbal abuse is demeaning. We've heard of it in. So.

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So. Many other contexts in this chamber, but the right to go to work chamber, but the right to go to work and be safe is a fundamental right in the workplace. Now, this has in the workplace. Now, this has never been an adversarial campaign. Retailers have supported the Retailers have supported the campaign. British Retail Consortium, many of the big retail companies many of the big retail companies were with us on this. In fact, when this started, all the recording was about the theft in the stores, not the reality of the impact on the employees.

That tag is gone. This decision by this government sends the right message that abuse will the right message that abuse will never be tolerated. Now, of course, one clause, a standalone clause does one clause, a standalone clause does not in itself solve everything. And we'll monitor the impact of it in due course. And there will be calls due course. And there will be calls for an extension of the course, a clause to other frontline workers. clause to other frontline workers. But don't let that negate the importance of this clause.

One of the best recruitment opportunities I the best recruitment opportunities I had as a leader of a trade union was when we introduced this campaign. Those people who may never have.

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Wanted to join. A union in the past liked the idea they had somebody speaking up idea they had somebody speaking up for them. Somebody was prepared to discuss with the companies, with the stakeholders and with politicians. stakeholders and with politicians. So please, whatever your reservations about specific clauses, reservations about specific clauses, these should be congratulations of the government for this one. This is extremely important. Now I can just give you three statistics and one I want. I'll give you two examples.

The store manager, who had been The store manager, who had been assaulted three times, gave his job. He couldn't face returning to the He couldn't face returning to the workplace. A young woman who had two children. The only area within the children. The only area within the workplace couldn't face. Come on back. Now, I know that's trying to back. Now, I know that's trying to draw a degree of emotion into this, but these are real people. 70% would receive in verbal abuse.

Behind that as tested is individuals. So I applaud the government for the bill,

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applaud the government for the bill, and I look forward to watching its work through and contribute going forward. Thank you. Thank you.

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Thank you. My Lords, I would like. To say just a few. Words to. Welcome the.

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Welcome the. Inclusion of. The cooking. Offence into this

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bill. Unfortunately, across. The country, the whole vulnerable

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The country, the whole vulnerable people are being exploited, threatened and manipulated in their
16:34
Lord McColl of Dulwich Portrait Lord McColl of Dulwich (Conservative)
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threatened and manipulated in their own homes. By criminals.

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By criminals. Who take control of the property for their own purposes. Communities for their own purposes. Communities are. Also suffering terribly. This anti-social behaviour, as a

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consequence, and we. Call it. Cooking. Which sounds a.

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Which sounds a. Bit odd, but it's. Because of the. Similarity to the behaviour of

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Similarity to the behaviour of the cuckoo bird, which imposes itself into another bird's nest, expelling the rightful offspring. And manipulating the adult birds into caring for it. I think it was nine.

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nine. 2021 when. I first proposed the

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I first proposed the criminalisation of cooking. This was actually prompted by expert research

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actually prompted by expert research by Justice and Care. And the centre.

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For Social Justice. I was concerned that the existing laws concerned that the existing laws were inadequate to address the exploitative nature of this exploitative nature of this predatory behaviour. I'd like to congratulate the noble Lord, the congratulate the noble Lord, the minister, Lord Hanson, and his colleagues, for bringing forward colleagues, for bringing forward this offence. I'd also like to thank him for his response to my correspondence regarding the. Victims. Who are too afraid to verbalise their lack of consent, and also, of course, young people who may be compelled to engage in

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cooking by others who are exploiting them. I hope. These issues.

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These issues. Will be addressed on the record during the later stages of this bill. The cooking offence cheats bill. The cooking offence cheats this activity with the seriousness give.

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give. The. Police the tools they actually need. I look forward to seeing this brought into force. Thank you.

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brought into force. Thank you. Lord. Strasbourg is taking part remotely. And I now invite Lord.

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remotely. And I now invite Lord. Strasbourg to speak. My lords.

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I declare my interest as Chair of Big Brother. Watch. I'd just. Like to welcome the earlier

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Like to welcome the earlier comments of Lord Herbert that the non crime hate incident regime is non crime hate incident regime is not fit for purpose. My Lords, this bill has much to recommend it, but four minutes is nowhere near enough four minutes is nowhere near enough to do it justice. So I will focus on just two concerning aspects. Until recently, our country was an exemplar of how governments and other institutions could be held to account by citizens through peaceful protest.

But in 2022, the last government gave us the police, crime, Sentencing and Courts Act, crime, Sentencing and Courts Act, which handed senior police officers and ministers powers to impose extensive constraints on protests. Then, in 2023, the Public Order Act further enhanced police powers to restrict and criminalise criminalised protest activity. As a criminalised protest activity. As a result, in just two years, 712 protests in England and Wales were protests in England and Wales were subject to police conditions, 95% of them in London.

But now it seems the them in London. But now it seems the government wants even more powers to restrict protests. Clause 138 would restrict protests. Clause 138 would enable police to ban protests in the vicinity of a place of worship. vicinity of a place of worship. Whatever in the vicinity of means. It would certainly include Parliament Square and most urban centres.
16:38
Lord Strasburger Portrait Lord Strasburger (Liberal Democrat)
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And clause. engage in protest. Furthermore, the government is promising additional clauses to enable the police to ban repeating process protests, which of course is most protests. While laws protecting the right to protest is absolutely vital to maintaining a healthy, vibrant democracy where power is questioned and is balanced by the collective will of citizens, the limited effect of more and more restrictions on protests is one of the reasons why our country is sliding down the worlds Free Speech League, and this.

Trend needs to be reversed. My thoughts I now turn to an astonishing omission from this bill. The collection of DNA, how it is retained and examined, and how it is used as evidence and its eventual destruction are quite rightly controlled by several Acts of Parliament and detailed regulations, all overseen by a statutory regulator. But when it comes to the relatively new facial recognition technology, none of these protections and none of this oversight exists. Nothing at all. And facial recognition is far more intrusive than DNA.

It's as if the citizens are walking around the streets with a barcode on their foreheads, that the police can read from a distance to identify them. It drives a coach and horses through our time on the right, with limited exceptions, to withhold our identity from the police. And when they. This technology is incorporated into this country's vast network of CCTV cameras, as it surely will be, it will be possible to track us wherever we are going about our lawful business. Since the technology was first used in South Wales in 2017, police forces have reluctantly had to cobble together their own rules and their own homework, falling foul of the courts in the process.

So, my Lords, you would assume that the new government would seize this opportunity if this major bill on policing to introduce the long overdue statutory regulation of facial recognition technology. But if you thought that, you'd be wrong. This bill does nothing so urgently fill the black hole where the essential regulation should be the black hole that is crushing our privacy. Instead, the government is presenting a bill that says nothing about facial recognition other than clause 138, which seeks to make the technology even more intrusive by linking it to the DVLA database.

My Lords, this extraordinarily regulatory vacuum must be filled by amendments during the passage of this bill. Thank you.
16:41
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
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My Lords, I know that many on the Labour benches don't want to hear this, but this government is actually more authoritarian.

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Than the last. Not only. accepted. All the draconian laws of the.

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All the draconian laws of the. Conservative government. It actually continues to add. To them. Now, how many times in the

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Now, how many times in the previous 14 years I've only been here? 12. But in the past 14 years

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the Labour benches. Did speak against. Laws clamping down on. Protest, but. Now they're supporting them and

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Now they're supporting them and even defending it, adding to them the values of liberty and democracy. A passionate defence of the right to protest. It all sounded great in opposition. So why did Labour drop them when they came.

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them when they came. Into power? protest. Is.

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The aim of. This legislation. Of course, governments don't mind if protest. Changes nothing. The bulk.

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The bulk. Of laws in. Recent years have been aimed at the kind of non-violent, direct

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action protest that stopped big corporations from, for example. Setting up. Damaging fracking. Wells. In our countryside.

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In our countryside. Or supported people trying to stop an ancient woodland being cut down to build a new destructive

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road. A lot of those. Protests were successful. And led to. Policy changes. Either locally or nationally.

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Either locally or nationally. Like the direct action protests a few years ago actually led to the

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passing of the Climate Emergency Act. The oil and gas industry don't like countries. Switching to renewables.

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Switching to renewables. To insulation and net zero, so they paid a think tank to come up

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they paid a think tank to come up effective. Protest. Which the last government passed and this government. Has kept.

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Has kept. That's why we need to enshrine a legal right to protest. And I intend

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to bring an amendment to that effect. I spent 12 years in. This House warning about this country being on the path towards a. Big.

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Big. Brother state, a combination of laws against effective protest while laws against effective protest while using digital ID will enable or enable a future government to carry out repression with a biometric link. The police are already using facial recognition without any proper regulation or.

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proper regulation or. Legal restraints. With the proposed. Rules against face covering and the rollout of

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face covering and the rollout of digital ID just being seen on a protest against a future government. Could see you. Losing promotion.

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Losing promotion. Or your. Job or state benefits. It's already happened. To dissenters in Hong Kong. And other.

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And other. government. Can blacklist. You. Just like the UK building.

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Industry did. To trade. Unionists in conjunction with. The police. We have to.

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Allow people to disrupt. Make a noise, get noticed. That's democracy. The people, the police, of

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The people, the police, of course, should be able to arrest. For serious infringements. And people should.

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Still face legal consequences. But not the. Very severe. Punishments of. Recent years that. Labels protest.

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Labels protest. terrorists. The prescription of Palestine action is another nail. In the coffin of.

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In the coffin of. Democracy and dissent. The new powers. For. The police to ban repeated

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protests. Is the state trying to shut down the people who are putting a spotlight on the. Government's complicity.

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Government's complicity. In the genocide in Gaza? After all, when you're. Supplying a military intelligence to Israel and military intelligence to Israel and exporting arms to a country that wants to ethnically cleanse people from a land that you want to settle, from a land that you want to settle, those actions which could land you in an international court? My Noble in an international court? My Noble friend Baroness Bennett, who can't be here today, will engage on the issue of travellers rights and abortion law at a later stage.

So I just have a few questions for the minister to answer. I'll cram in as many as I can. Do you suspect that the proscription of Palestine action

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has discredited the use of anti-terror laws? Will the government. Look. Instead at the case for

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proscribing members of the Israeli Defence Force living in. Or visiting. This country? These are people

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This country? These are people who have taken part in potential war crimes, who've murdered and terrorised thousands of women and children in Gaza. And finally.

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Does the. Minister really. Feel it's a priority. For the police. And. Security services.

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Security services. To waste their time. Enforcing this. Unpopular and. Largely pointless prescription when they have real

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terrorists to track down? My Lords. As ever, I declare my

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My Lords. As ever, I declare my secondary. School in. Hackney. A. Place that. My. Friend Lord Burt has, I thought
16:46
Lord Hampton Portrait Lord Hampton (Crossbench)
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Friend Lord Burt has, I thought was rather unfair about earlier. My Lord, this is an extensive. And wide ranging bill. You know

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And wide ranging bill. You know you're in trouble when they have to Treasury. Target rather than. Bind it.

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Bind it. But there are many good things. About the bill. Clause 191. Is good. As Professor Ronnie Thacker.

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Thacker. President of the Royal College. Of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, said, abortion. Is an essential.

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Is an essential. Form of health care and should be subject to regulatory and professional standards. Like other.

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professional standards. Like other. Medical procedures, not.

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Criminal sanctions. Clause 78 is good, preserving the right of child confidentiality in some

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circumstances. Barnardos and. NSPCC, among. Others, stress. Its. Importance for services.

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Importance for services. Like Childline. I image generators used to.

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I image generators used to. Produce child abuse images. Made illegal. Is something that many.

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Lords have talked about. But my Lords, there are issues. The Children's. Society feel.

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That the offence of child criminal exploitation does not go far enough.

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Any child can be at risk of exploitation. Indeed, perpetrators

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are now. Looking for so-called clean skins. Children who. Aren't. Known to. The. Police or involved with the local.

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local. Authorities so the. Exploitation can. Go undetected. Many of these. Young.

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Young. People are from affluent backgrounds. The children's Commissioner has

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The children's Commissioner has concerns about parts of clause 14. She says. It is clear when adult. Exploits a child.

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To engage. In criminal activity that. Should be a mandatory.

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Should be a mandatory. Criminal offence, regardless of the child's perceived age. I welcome. The government's mission to halve

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The government's mission to halve knife crime. And get. Knives off our streets. As Lady. Lawrence of Clarendon so movingly spoke about.

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The pen Kinsella. Trust reports an 81% increase in

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Trust reports an 81% increase in police recorded offences involving a knife or sharp. Instrument in the.

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Last ten years to. March 2025. Our child. Lost a school.

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Our school lost the child. Killed in a life. Knife attack. Last year. Do we need.

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Do we need. Zombie hunting knives and other. Overly aggressive. Styles of knives? Surely some.

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Are just two. Potentially dangerous? But according. To the Youth Endowment.

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To the Youth Endowment. Fund, in the year 2024. 50% of murders were.

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murders were. Carried out with a blade used. That were carried. Out with a blade, used a pointed

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Out with a blade, used a pointed kitchen knife. They call. For a ban on. Pointed knives altogether. The.

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Pointed knives altogether. The. Catering fraternity might have checked. All those. Studies have shown. There is no culinary.

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There is no culinary. Effect in whether a knife has a point or not. Would the minister support.

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Would the minister support. Such a ban? We also get. To equal protection. Does this. Go in this bill or we're trying

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Go in this bill or we're trying to get it. Into. Children's wellbeing bill. With over. 65 countries, including.

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Wales and. Scotland already having. Legislated to protect children.

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From physical punishment, how much longer. Can England justify standing

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Can England justify standing still? The NSPCC does not describe this as a smacking ban, but talks. About.

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About. Equal protection. This is not the call for creation of a new offence. Just the removal

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of a new offence. Just the removal of a legal defence to. Make. Equal the law of.

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Assault for both. Children and adults. This is about giving children. The best possible. Start in life.

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Start in life. Not criminalising parents. My Lords. Deliberately causing pain for. A child.

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A child. For. Whatever reason. Has to belong to the. Last century. There are much better and. Safer ways to.

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Safer ways to. Respond to a. Child's behaviour than the use of

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Child's behaviour than the use of minister's. Thoughts on that as well. My Lords. And first, may.

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And first, may. I welcome. Baroness Lloyd the. Noble Baroness to the.

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Noble Baroness to the. Bench to supplement the efforts. Of the. Indefatigable homocysteine in the. Frontbench in the.

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the. Frontbench in the. Lords. And I wish to speak about. Clause 191. Which decriminalise.

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Abortions for women, ending their pregnancy at any stage to birth. pregnancy at any stage to birth. This clause does not change the existing time limit of 24 weeks,
16:50
Baroness Lawlor Portrait Baroness Lawlor (Conservative)
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after which an abortion will be a criminal offence under, except under

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special circumstances. For medical. Professionals. Those who provide.

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Professionals. Those who provide. An abortion or assist a woman to procure one for themselves. What will. Change is that the woman herself,

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Change is that the woman herself, who take steps to end her pregnancy. At any stage up. To birth, will not.

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Face criminal. Charges. I am against such a change on

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I am against such a change on three grounds. One procedural to

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three grounds. One procedural to substantive. First, a private. Member's conscience amendment. Has been.

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Used to amend a government bill bringing the weight of the executive to a matter of conscience. Moreover,

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to a matter of conscience. Moreover, by this procedure. A matter of. Great significance may be allowed

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Great significance may be allowed to slip through, tacked on to the Crime and Justice Bill, avoiding the full national and.

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full national and. Parliamentary scrutiny. That such major changes in.

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A law requires. Two it is selective in the application of the law.

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application of the law. In. A way that. Goes against the very. Principle of law. It is.

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It is. Bad in principle. And practice to come to some action. As a crime.

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others. In clause. 191 it is accepted that.

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191 it is accepted that. Aborting a. Baby over 24. Weeks old is normally. A crime.

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And that those. Involved should be punished, except for one the

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be punished, except for one the pregnant woman who is the instigator Of the action. It is part of the

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Of the action. It is part of the very. Principle of what it is to be a law that is applied universally. a law that is applied universally. There can be special factors such as coercion, which relieves someone of criminal responsibility in

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particular. Circumstances.

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But not a blanket exception. Moreover, there could be no greater denigration of pregnant women and

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denigration of pregnant women and indeed all women. Than to. Deny that then to deny them the

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Deny that then to deny them the most basic right of all, to be judged morally. And when they have judged morally. And when they have committed a crime judged criminally. Abortion over 28 weeks is accepted Abortion over 28 weeks is accepted as a crime by all. To say that pregnant woman women can committed, pregnant woman women can committed, so long as they do so against their own children or own child, but nevertheless are not criminals, is to treat them as less than fully

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human adults who. My Lords, I want. To start.

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To start. As lots of people have done. Today, by echoing the.
16:53
Baroness Mattinson Portrait Baroness Mattinson (Labour)
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Today, by echoing the. Comments. About this. Excellent bill. I know very well. The impact. That.

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Its many measures will have in. Many communities. Around the country. I also.

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Around the country. I also. Want to echo congratulations for. My. Friend the noble Baroness. Levitt for her.

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Levitt for her. Hugely impressive debut. In introducing a very. Complex

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In introducing a very. Complex bill. I want to talk today in favour of clause 191, because I believe. Very.

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Very. Strongly that women, often very vulnerable. Women. ending.

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ending. Their. Own pregnancy. Outside the law, which often

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Outside the law, which often results in years of investigation and a custodial. Sentence.

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Sentence. Baroness Suggs earlier talked very eloquently about what is and very eloquently about what is and isn't contained in clause one, line one. So I'm not going to go through that again. But a couple of points I want to make. The other place voted to repeal this antiquated law. Bringing us in line with many other

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democracies around the world. But it also brings us in line. With public opinion.

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With public opinion. 52% overall oppose criminalising women in these circumstances, while women in these circumstances, while only 21% it. That's men and women,

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only 21% it. That's men and women, fair minded people, if you like. But unsurprisingly, women feel. This most strongly.

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This most strongly. Just 16% of women support criminalising women in this way. And criminalising women in this way. And when we look at women under the age of 40, i.e. Those women who are most likely to be directly affected by likely to be directly affected by the law, that drops down to just

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the law, that drops down to just clear. That for me, the most powerful.

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And persuasive argument comes directly from some of the women who have been treated barbaric. By this law. Take Sami.

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law. Take Sami. Who went into premature Labour at. Home and as she attempted. To.

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To. Resuscitate her own baby. Seven police. Officers were searching her police. Officers were searching her bins for evidence even before the. Paramedics had arrived. She was then interviewed under caution for suspected illegal abortion, and had her phone and her computer seized. She was not allowed home for a week and as it was sealed off as a crime

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scene and she was left just in the clothes that she. Had attended. Hospital in. She was also not allowed to. Contact her partner, despite providing forensic samples that did not. Show the presence of abortion drugs. She remained under police investigation for a year and police investigation for a year and was only allowed limited supervised contact with her baby, who had survived the traumatic birth, probably because of her own intervention. Sami is now a very intervention.

Sami is now a very active campaigner against this law, a law that was passed before women even.

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Had the vote. We have a chance now to end the suffering it causes, and we must.

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suffering it causes, and we must. Do so. And so. My Lords is a great deal of

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My Lords is a great deal of interest in this bill. So I shall confirm this after talking to someone about. Something.
16:56
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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Something. That isn't in the bill, but should be. Of the 42 million should be. Of the 42 million vehicles on UK roads, the research we've done over the last five years shows that 10 million of them and non-compliant, uninsured, unregistered, untaxed or without not. That's an astonishing figure. But it shouldn't surprise us. If you don't enforce the law, then you get an upsurge in people breaking the law. And as this bill deals with shoplifting, and I am delighted that it should.

So it should be dealing

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with vehicle non-compliance. With non. Compliant vehicles. That is.

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That is. Something that we can do without cost to the Treasury, because we are cost to the Treasury, because we are dealing with people who are easier to locate, who owe money anyway, and who are in possession of a substantial asset. So that.

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substantial asset. So that. Produces a. Set of circumstances where we can devise a system of enforcement which devise a system of enforcement which does not cost the Treasury anything. If any other noble Lords are If any other noble Lords are interested in this problem, I please corresponded with me in the Commons. corresponded with me in the Commons. It has been most actively pursued by Sarah Coombs MP, who has now been Sarah Coombs MP, who has now been brought within the government and therefore can't campaign for it actively.

So this is very much a actively. So this is very much a cross-party issue, a national issue, not a not a party one. So I intend to propose amendments to this.

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to propose amendments to this. Bill to. Allow a pilot to help us reach a self-funding solution to the

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self-funding solution to the problem. My amendments will. Enable local. Authorities and other enforcement

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Authorities and other enforcement bodies to identify high risk vehicles and intervene, starting with things like warning notices and text messages targeting the worst persistent adviser evaders, those using cloned number plates, foreign registered vehicles and those without DVLA keeper details. There are a lot of them. The pilot can be delivered at zero cost to police or government. It will end up supporting. Overstretched police forces, denying criminal criminals the use of our roads and reducing bill for related antisocial behaviour.

The pilot proposals have been developed in consultation with those representing the interests of roads, policing, local government and trade associations. It is very well thought through and I take no credit for it. I am just a spokesman. But none of this can happen without government support and legislative change, and this bill seems to me to be the place for that. Rather than embarking on something wholesale, wholesale, which would raise all sorts of questions about people needed to be consulted.

A pilot is something that is much more limited. If it falls over, we will all have learnt something without the government having to pay for the lesson. If it succeeds and I am most optimistic, it will drive lasting reform and make UK roads safer for us all. I very much hope that the Minister will be agreeable to a meeting with himself and relevant officials to present this initiative in more detail, alongside industry experts who have helped shape its

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development. My Lords, can I begin by congratulating the noble Baroness, congratulating the noble Baroness, the Minister, on an exceptionally comprehensive introduction to what is, by any measure, a wide ranging is, by any measure, a wide ranging and ambitious bill. In the time available, I will confine my remarks to three aspects of the Bill. The government's manifesto commitments to extend aggravated offences to all strands of hate crime. The continuing discussions around the recording of non crime hate incidents and in common with Lord
17:00
Baroness Hunt of Bethnal Green Portrait Baroness Hunt of Bethnal Green (Crossbench)
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incidents and in common with Lord Hogan, how, as a London cyclist, I am very interested in the new provisions around cycling. First, I welcome the commitment made by the Minister at report stage in the other place to introduce a government amendment at committee stage in this House. I got all that information correct to make all existing strands of hate crime, aggravated offences. The framework for race and religion has made a real difference. It has given prosecutors the tools to reflect the gravity of hate motivated crime and ensured higher sentences where hostility is proven and given victims confidence that the law recognises when they have experienced such an offence.

These offences send a clear message about who we are as a society and what we are prepared to confront. For disabled people. The same clarity has never existed. Hostility is too often treated as an afterthought. Incidents instead recorded as ordinary assault or public order without recognition of the prejudice behind it. Extending aggravated offences to disability would bring long overdue parity and show that hate in any form, will be met with equal seriousness. For LGBT people, too, the gap in protection remains.

While cases can be charged as hate motivated, they still fall outside the aggravated framework. I hope the government's amendment will close that gap once and for all, and I look forward to working with ministers on it. I note the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Herbert, on the recommendations to stop non crime hate incidents. I do believe that seeing a spike in incidents can help police forces and crucially, communities take action. For example, an increase in anti-Semitic incidents in an area can signal growing tensions.

I absolutely accept the recommendations of the National College of Policing, but I am interested in how police forces and communities can still consider signals and measures of community cohesion and take proportionate and measurable action to prevent escalation. Finally, and perhaps most controversial thing I'll talk about in this chamber ever. I welcome the provisions on cycling now included in the bill. I cycled in London and I do something that sometimes feel rare. I stop at red lights and I.

I indicate when turning and wear a helmet. Anything that deters dangerous or careless cycling is to be welcomed. And it is time our laws reflected how we travel in our cities today. But, my Lords, I must also confess that I enjoy an e-bike. And although I have no financial interest in lime, they certainly have a financial interest in me, reducing the maximum speed of hired e-bikes would be a simple way to make them safer. They simply go to fast my routes and they evoke an adolescent abandonment of safety and conscience in a way that I am totally ashamed.

Righteous riders must behave responsibly, but providers also have a part to play and an easy part to play in protecting everyone. This bill covers a great deal of ground and the issues I've touched on all points. The same principle the law must be fair, proportionate and responsive to the world as it really is, not how we wish it was. I look forward to working with the Minister and noble Lords across the House as the bill progresses.

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In my Lords. A lot of today's

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In my Lords. A lot of today's speeches have been on abortion, which is weird. In a bill boasting its aim is to make our streets its aim is to make our streets safer. Just to note that I support clause one nine, one aim of applying clause one nine, one aim of applying the criminal law for women acting in relation to their own pregnancies. But I don't think this bill was the But I don't think this bill was the right vehicle for such an important law change, and I have got some sympathy with the public backlash
17:04
Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
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sympathy with the public backlash about a lack of debate on the issue. But you can see how it happened. The bill is so disparate and unfocused that even the government keeps adding to it. Ministers introduced 90 amendments, 66 new clauses and four new schedules at committee and report stage at the other place. And apparently there's more to come here. But where does that leave us? All this chopping and changing. Changing. Leave us here. Recent tensions over our scrutinising role has led to the accusations of filibustering and time wasting.

But how can we keep on top of what the government intends when it's so scattergun and expansive? As the noble Lord, Lord Garnier explained so well, the bill to me exemplifies the trend of excessive lawmaking as a substitute for enforcing laws that we already have. We've heard a lot today about the bill creating a specific offence of assaulting retail workers. Well, call me old fashioned, but I've always been opposed to assaulting retail workers. As far as I knew, it was against the law.

Now we are creating a new law that avoids crucial questions. Why is the shot? Has there been a shocking increase in attacks on shop workers, often accompanied by mass shoplifting? And why had this not been dealt with by the police? Inevitably, the workers say, what about us? For example, in an unlikely outbreak of consensus, the RMT, National Rail and the Rail Delivery Group are united in demanding that there should be a specific offence of assaulting or abusing transport workers and to counter lots more special pleading.

Perhaps the government should use its energy in ensuring that assault laws lead to prosecutions. Another worry the public's civil liberties and free speech are being carelessly jeopardised by this trend of criminalising ever more aspects of everyday life, for example, in relation to clause 118, the Joint Committee on Human Rights warns that criminalising all forms of identity concealment could unjustifiably interfere in the right to protest. Yet again, the police already have powers to require individuals to remove such face coverings.

Maybe the government should investigate why the police don't use that power when, for example, dealing with pro-Palestinian marchers chanting Jew hatred behind the cafés and balaclavas? No, far easier to ban all face coverings instead. But as Big Brother watch notes, there are many law abiding individuals who might want to conceal their identities on demos. Topically, why do we think Hong Kong dissidents cover their faces on protests? Hint their own authoritarian government agents are watching, and these proposals are made against the backdrop of other attacks on privacy, from facial recognition technology to digital ID.

Then let's close, for which many civil libertarians are concerned about. Firstly, those much vaunted respect orders. It seems the epitome of technocratic governance, by the way, to imagine you can tackle the breakdown of social respect so well described by the noble lady Baroness Stowell by creating a new civil order called a respect order. Respect orders are almost a duplicate of the overused and discredited and ineffective anti-social behaviour. Injunctions which will continue but respect orders, will have criminal sanctions up to two years in prison, which only but only use the lower civil standard of proof, and recipients won't even be told when they are put on an order.

Meanwhile, the increased proposed increases in penalties for breaching the misnamed Public Space Protection Orders and CP ends from 100 to £500 is pathetically punitive, but outrageously, they are predominantly issued by private enforcement agencies who are paid by the state per fine. Yeah, yeah. I'm afraid too much of this bill will continue this trend of eroding our everyday liberties, and I will be working with groups like manifesto, Club and Justice to ensure that actually, we should focus on keeping our our streets safe.

But what's not safe

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with this bill is our civil liberties and our free speech. Yeah, yeah. My Lords, it's a pleasure to

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My Lords, it's a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. And I welcome the noble Baroness, the minister, to her first Second

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minister, to her first Second Reading. I welcome elements of this. New portmanteau.

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Bill and the noble Lady the Minister's assurances at the beginning of this debate on the
17:09
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea Portrait Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Conservative)
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beginning of this debate on the focus being on fighting basic crime. The bill.

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The bill. Addresses legislation seen as obsolete, incomplete, needing. Amendments or improvement. And I see

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Amendments or improvement. And I see a further golden opportunity in this bill to. Remove hate. Crime law. Which.

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Which. Was first put on. The books. In 1965, addressing.

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Hate race, hatred. But since. Then, hate crime. Law has proliferated. Indeed,

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Law has proliferated. Indeed, metastasised it is proliferated in which protected characteristics it which protected characteristics it covers now up to five in the UK, seven in Scotland. It's proliferated in the triviality that can now incur the police's attention. It's proliferated in political agendas. Being pursued with some hateful beliefs allowed to flout but less politically modish views crack down

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on this, proliferated. By uncoupling hate. Crime from actual crime, with

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police. Intimidating and harassing individuals for the observed and. Near oxymoronic. Concept of non.

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Concept of non. proliferated. In. The many new. Organisations claiming to unearth hate.

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claiming to unearth hate. Crime and hate speech. Funding false. Narratives of hate. Crime, dividing the. Nation further.

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Nation further. But with. No reduction in hate crime. Hate crime.

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Hate crime. Has crystallised as a. Useful tool of. Left identitarian. Dividing and conquering.

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Dividing and conquering. By inciting grievance within the identity groups whose. Votes they. Seek to capture.

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Seek to capture. Set against this my Lords is free speech. Where in this.

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speech. Where in this. believe. In thought crime? Our first.

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Queen Elizabeth. Famously. Famously said. She had no desire to look.

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to look. Into men's souls. But now we. Have policemen saying, I need to.

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Have policemen saying, I need to. Check your thinking. Free speech advocates see the need to. Tolerate it.

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Tolerate it. When people say disgusting things we don't like only. Ordinary criminal law, not.

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Hate crime law. Should be. Deployed in. Such circumstances.

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And only then. If there is. Intent to incite imminent violence.

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Intent to incite imminent violence. Criminalising hate. Speech didn't prevent. The hateful marches. That

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The hateful marches. That occurred immediately after October. 7th, before. Israel could.

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Israel could. Even react. Nor did it stop the continuation of those marches after continuation of those marches after the cease fire had been achieved. Those marches quickly over the months rose to the standard of criminal incitement. In my view, after October 7th. Yet nothing was after October 7th. Yet nothing was done about that. Month after month. Is there any evidence, my Lords, Is there any evidence, my Lords, that the invention of hate crime has reduced the number of attacks on minorities? Try asking Jews in Manchester that question or Muslims in Bethnal Green.

Meanwhile, hate in Bethnal Green. Meanwhile, hate crime law has led to the police being confused, overstretched, badly led, distracted from fighting actual crime. Not one burglary was solved crime. Not one burglary was solved in 48% of English and Welsh neighbourhoods in the past three years. The police's soft target now is to pursue the unthreatening middle class tweeter rather than shoplifters, phone muggers, burglars, drug dealers.

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My Lords, to. Redirect the police, we need to get hate crime off the statute book while ensuring that within the Criminal Code, we have adequate provision for the punishment of any crime that's driven by the intent to intimidate, persecute or marginalise intimidate, persecute or marginalise any group of citizens of whatever identity. Police could then focus on identity. Police could then focus on the numerous actual crimes that are committed daily, so that our police committed daily, so that our police forces can return, as they say, to policing our streets and not our tweets.



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tweets. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. My Lords, well I broadly welcome. This bill.

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This bill. The bit I don't welcome I think it's how large. It is. Its scale and complexity were.

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Referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Garnier and the noble Viscount, Lord Goshen and even Baroness Fox,

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Lord Goshen and even Baroness Fox, with whom I find myself agreeing. It is.

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It is. It is, in a sense, a testament to how many of our public bodies. Live in. Silos. How many public.
17:14
Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait Lord Russell of Liverpool (Crossbench)
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Silos. How many public. Bodies have. Inconsistent leadership and change of leadership, and how much

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different. Bodies have selective. Interpretation and enactment.

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Of regulation or guidance? My Lords, this bill is in some senses it is well intended, but it is also it is well intended, but it is also a manifestation of a systemic malaise and is a testament to our continuous failure under governments of whatever colour to enact and or of whatever colour to enact and or enforce existing law or regulation and guidance by Lords. I was at the

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and guidance by Lords. I was at the dinner last Monday for the all-party parliamentary group on the Armed. Forces, and. A very impressive gentleman who's

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A very impressive gentleman who's in charge of all of our cyber security, talked about the appointment of. Mr. Rupert Pearce.

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As the National Armaments Director to try once and for all to try and sort out our rather lamentable track record in major defence procurement. If I ruled the world, which unfortunately is not a

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world, which unfortunately is not a hereditary role, I would be tempted Timpson. As.

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As. The national joined up government director because, as his wonderful

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director because, as his wonderful father, Sir John Timpson, created. The. Concept of upside down

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Concept of upside down management. I do think that so many areas of our governance would benefit from focusing on the people benefit from focusing on the people at the bottom who are the subjects of all sorts of things happening to them, and working your way upwards to find out how can you remove the blockages which are continuously failing to remedy what repeated laws and new regulations are failing to do? I said to the noble Baroness. Smith of Malvern at the beginning of the school day, Children's Wellbeing in Schools bill, that I would be all over the farce.

The first part of the bill like a rash, and I make the same promise to the noble Lord and lady for this bill, because there are many areas of interest, I will be working closely with the office of the victims. Commissioner Baroness Newlove regrets she's unable to be here today on a variety of amendments to try and make more sense of the attempts to deal with anti-social behaviour. I shall be continuing work with the noble Lady, Baroness Lloyd and others on

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stalking. I will be working. With. Baroness Armstrong of Hilltop and others on. Trying to.

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Trying to. Deal with the. Difficult issue of. Exploitation of children, because.

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There is a. Difficulty that we have in differentiating between the

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differentiating between the individual as a victim and the individual as. A perpetrator. And if you're a child, you can be

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And if you're a child, you can be one and the same thing. And it is very complicated to try and deal with that. I shall be dealing with with that. I shall be dealing with mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse again, to try and make that more forensic and more efficient. I generated child sexual material and I shall, of course, be supporting the noble Lady Baroness Burton on all of her amendments around all of her amendments around pornography. I think it is a tribute to the women in this chamber, how about.



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about. These issues. I'm afraid not enough men do. And I thought it was very interesting

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I thought it was very interesting that a large number of men. Have commented. On the rights of women and what they do with their own bodies during they do with their own bodies during the course of this debate, and rather fewer women. And with that, I will sit down.

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will sit down. OK. Thank you. My Lords much. That is valuable and important has been said by many in this chamber this afternoon, particularly about the risks of the criminal law creeping too far into the conduct of everyday life. The law should not be a code of conduct under the problems of UN enforceability. When law becomes
17:17
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
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over complex. An important suggestion was made by Lord Cromwell, for example, which I hope Cromwell, for example, which I hope is debated at committee. But I want to speak to clause 191, which has profound implications for the lives profound implications for the lives of some children. Those in favour in the Commons spoke of a recent increase in investigations and increase in investigations and prosecution. They spoke of women abused and pressured into abortions and of unreasonable behaviour by the and of unreasonable behaviour by the police and CPS, and they used harrowing cases to argue.

A number harrowing cases to argue. A number argued that abortion should be considered only as a healthcare matter. But it's not hard to unpick matter. But it's not hard to unpick these arguments and to see on what shaky foundations this decision was taken. It's blindingly clear that abortion is a profoundly difficult issue, because the rights attaching to two different lives conflict. to two different lives conflict. This is why it figures in criminal law. I don't stand with those who law. I don't stand with those who argue for absolute priorities in either direction, but I have worked for years in areas where adults and children's rights unavoidably conflict, and I know how easy it is conflict, and I know how easy it is for campaigners to be blinded by such conflicts of rights, by their perceptions of their own rightness.

This is how some can see giving women an unqualified right to kill their own children, even the day before birth, as merely a progressive modernisation of the law for abortion, there is an uncomfortable asymmetry. Unlike their mothers, unborn children are helpless and voiceless. We should therefore reject the argument that abortion should be considered purely as a health care matter. Yes, yes, yes, of course women's health care matters. But to make health care, the only consideration is to deny a vast and important ethical debate.

Both lives and question matter very much. Clinicians and support services naturally want to be kind to the women in front of them, to whom they are responsibilities. And of course, it's easier for professionals if the law removes any possibility of repercussions for them from a self-induced late abortion. But furthermore, decriminalisation, even in the interests of kindness, isn't always a social good. To give just one example, Oregon has had to reverse its disastrous policy of decriminalising low level drug possession and usage.

Now next, if there are cases of police or CPS overreach or malpractice, primary legislation is not the right way to correct that. It's shocking when someone proves to have been wrongly convicted. But do a few cases of wrongful conviction justify, say, decriminalising rape, lest any man ever be unfairly accused and investigated? And finally, Parliament should not succumb to emotional blackmail? The old saying is that hard cases make bad law. Domestic violence charities do see dreadful cases.

Abused women do deserve kindness and consideration. But not all women are angels. Without agency. There are women who are not abused, but who do neglect and maltreated their own children. Ask any social worker and there is clear moral hazard here. For example, a woman who forms a new relationship in mid pregnancy may be tempted to eliminate the baby that she thinks could be an impediment to that relationship. Yet, as far as I know, despite the red flag of increased investigations in recent years, no systematic review has looked at whether telemedicine for abortion is having an undesirable consequence of enabling greater numbers of women to conceal their stage of pregnancy, so as to attempt late abortions.

For all these reasons, I believe that your lordships should be concerned about this clause, and by the fact that it was inserted without any national consultation, showing a clear balance of public opinion in support, and that it was not informed by a full review of the impact of permitting abortions by telemedicine. I will therefore be proposing amendments to delay its implementation until such a review and consultation have taken place. Lords this comprehensive bill, so well introduced by my noble friend,

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brings our treatment of crime. Up. To. Date to fit new kinds. Of. unrecognised.

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unrecognised. In the time. Available. As my. Experience in dealing with crime.

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Experience in dealing with crime. Is limited to my time in the past as a. Magistrate. My current. Membership of the. Sussex Police Diversity. Advisory

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Sussex Police Diversity. Advisory Board, I will. Focus on two areas I am particularly concerned with now. The new.

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The new. Provisions on county lines, and the. with.
17:22
Baroness Whitaker Portrait Baroness Whitaker (Labour)
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with. A High Court decision that part four of the police, crime, Sentencing and.

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Courts Act 2022. Breached human rights. I declare. Interest as president.

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Interest as president. Of the Advisory Committee for the Education of Women, other travellers and of. to.

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to. Mind. Grateful as ever for. Expert briefing together. movement.

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movement. The new offence of coerced. Internal concealment. And. Associated provisions will enable

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Associated provisions will enable those forgotten children or vulnerable adults who have. Been excluded from.

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Been excluded from. Education or slip through the net in other. Ways to be found. Rescued and protected. The abhorrent practice.

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The abhorrent practice. By organised. Criminal gangs. Of recruiting these young people

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by force or deception into carrying drugs. Illicit money. And SIM cards. Away from.

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Away from. The centres where they were stolen or dealt with has mushroomed in recent years. It exploits many.

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It exploits many. Who have been. Virtually abandoned. By society and its. Institutions. In setting.

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Institutions. In setting. Fear which strangers them from their family. And community networks.

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networks. The reinforcement of. The civil. Prevention Order is helpful, and.

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Prevention Order is helpful, and. million. County Lines programme is a

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sensible broadening of the approach to include positive elements of safeguarding and rehabilitation, so I. Warmly welcome.

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Warmly welcome. This set of measures. My other concern. Is that our. Government has.

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Is that our. Government has. discrimination. Against and Travellers.

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Against and Travellers. Created by the. Conservative government, police. Crime. Sentencing Courts Act,

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Crime. Sentencing Courts Act, whereby that small minority of and Travellers who live in their. Traditional way in caravans, on Traditional way in caravans, on sites and have to make do and have to make do with unauthorised ones,

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can be imprisoned, and their vehicles, which are their homes impounded. Even if there are no.

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Authorised sites for. Them to go. To under circumstances found by

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To under circumstances found by the judge to be discrimination. The case followed formal recommendations by our Joint Committee. On Human Rights, the Council for Europe. Commissioner for Human Rights and Commissioner for Human Rights and U.N. Treaty bodies to repeal these measures. They were not welcomed by measures. They were not welcomed by our our police either. The majority of police forces and police and crime.

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crime. Commissioners responding. To the initial. Home Office consultation.

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On criminalising. Staying on. Unauthorised encampments rather than the previous definition of than the previous definition of trespass. Are posted, 93% of police bodies called for better site

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provision as a solution. To unauthorised encampments. And of course, it is the paucity

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And of course, it is the paucity of these that is the real problem. As the judge commented, not the desperate search to find somewhere

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desperate search to find somewhere to put the caravan homes. Meanwhile, the. Government is under a.

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Government is under a. Solemn obligation to remedy the incompatibility with. Our human rights law.

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Our human rights law. That is, it must restore to these fellow. Citizens who don't live. In.

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Bricks and mortar, that small. Measure of security. They had to be able to live, send

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They had to be able to live, send their children to school without fear, being driven out unreasonably, fear, being driven out unreasonably, having their mobile home impounded or sent to prison. I trust my noble friend the minister will not default on this obligation. Surely this bill

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is suitable. The vehicle you. My Lords, I declare my interest as director.

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as director. Of the Free Speech Union. I intend to table. An amendment to this.

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An amendment to this. Bill scrapping non crime hate

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incidents. A non crime hate incident or Nky is an incident or alleged. Incident which. Involves or is alleged to involve

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Involves or is alleged to involve an act which is perceived by the intended. Victim to be motivated
17:26
Lord Young of Acton Portrait Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)
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intended. Victim to be motivated wholly or partly by hostility or prejudice towards one or more of their protected characteristics.

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This definition is hopelessly subjective, relying as it does on. The perception.

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The perception. Of the complainant. Ncr's had been recorded against a woman who been recorded against a woman who said she thought her cat was a methodist, a man who whistled the methodist, a man who whistled the theme tune to Bob the builder and former MP Amber Rudd, who had an NCC lodged against her after a speech at lodged against her after a speech at the 2016 Conservative Party conference in which he called for British jobs for British workers. British jobs for British workers.

She was Home Secretary at the time. The reason the police are logging The reason the police are logging these incidents is because in 2014, the College of Policing instructed them to record all hate crime reports, which on investigation turned out not to be crimes. As turned out not to be crimes. As NCOs. That explains why, according to the most Conservative estimate, to the most Conservative estimate, 130,000 NCOs have been recorded in the last 11 years. The police should the last 11 years.

The police should not be put in the invidious position of having to record what are often vexatious, politically motivated complaints. As the High Court judge said in 2020 when he found for Harry Miller, an ex policeman who challenged an AI that had been recorded against him, quote, in this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. You may think, what does it matter if an ncri is recorded against someone's name? Because, my Lords, they can show up in an enhanced DBS check and stop you getting a job as a teacher or a carer.

Why should the fact that you've committed a non crime

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prevents you from getting a job? My Lords. NCOs are a breach of a sacrosanct

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NCOs are a breach of a sacrosanct principle of English common law whereby unless something is explicitly prohibited, it is explicitly prohibited, it is permitted. The behaviour recorded in NCS is by definition not prohibited

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NCS is by definition not prohibited by law. It's non-criminal. So why are. People being punished for it?

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People being punished for it? Recording NCS is also a colossal waste of police time. In a report published last year, Policy Exchange published last year, Policy Exchange estimated that recording NCS takes up 60,000 hours. Of police time up 60,000 hours. Of police time every year. My Lords, it's not just free speech lobbyists like me who free speech lobbyists like me who think NCS have to go. Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, Sir Andy Cook, has called for their Cook, has called for their abolition.

Earlier this year he said, quote, we need at times to allow people to speak openly without allow people to speak openly without the fear that their opinions will put them on the wrong side of the law. I'm a firm believer, he said, law. I'm a firm believer, he said, that non crime hate incidents are no longer. Required and Sir Andy is not longer. Required and Sir Andy is not alone amongst senior police officers and senior police officers, in his and senior police officers, in his opinion of NCS.

The noble Lord, Lord Hogan Howe, a former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, will be co-sponsoring my amendment for noble Lady. The minister said she hoped this bill will restore public confidence in the criminal justice system. Scrapping nHis, which risk turning the police into objects of ridicule, is a vital first step ahead.

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Of your Lordships' House. Has, over the years taken a very
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Portrait Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (Liberal Democrat)
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Has, over the years taken a very serious role in defending our free speech, our freedom of assembly and speech, our freedom of assembly and the right to peaceful protest. And just this afternoon we have heard powerful speeches from Baroness.

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Chakrabarti. From Baroness Jones, from Baroness Fox. Probably the first Baroness Fox. Probably the first time I've ever agreed with her. And from Lord Cashman and Lord Clement. from Lord Cashman and Lord Clement. James. Berners. James pointed out something. I've noted too, though, something. I've noted too, though, that out of power political parties defend those rights very vociferously. But once they're in vociferously. But once they're in power, as the government, they get power, as the government, they get very tempted.

And as we see in this bill to introduce legislation to bill to introduce legislation to restrict protest more and more. And in the 25 years I've been following in the 25 years I've been following this, I've noticed that successive governments have increased not only governments have increased not only the legislation about protest, but also the severity of the penalties also the severity of the penalties for those protesting or organising protests. And what especially concerns me is the cumulative effect of all those acts.

Now, I can accept of all those acts. Now, I can accept that sometimes legislation is a proportionate response to emerging social issues, and I am sure that is social issues, and I am sure that is something we'll explore in committee. But too often it's been the easy way for successive governments to limit dissent against their policies. And as we look at this bill with more kerbs on protest, it's shocking to think this is something I especially want us to bear in mind as we go through the bill, because it is shocking to think that international bodies have found that the UK has moved from being a champion of free speech and assembly to a nation where protest

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is a risk. For example. The UN rapporteur for human rights and the environment, David rights and the environment, David Bowie, warned of the chilling impact of recent legislation on democratic of recent legislation on democratic rights. And then Volker Turk, the UN High Commissioner for human rights, High Commissioner for human rights, said the Public Order Act 2023. Was deeply troubling and incompatible

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deeply troubling and incompatible with international law. And Michael. Force. The. UN rapporteur.

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UN rapporteur. For environmental defenders, he condemned the harsh sentencing of

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condemned the harsh sentencing of climate protesters as not acceptable in a democracy. I think we. Have. To take those as very serious

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To take those as very serious criticisms. And on that last point, criticisms. And on that last point, some of the sentences handed down to protesters are truly shocking. And protesters are truly shocking. And even a short sentence can. Disrupt your life a lot. It can affect the your life a lot. It can affect the jobs you can apply for. It can despise you. For example, from going despise you. For example, from going to the United States. In my case, that would be a very severe penalty as so many of my family live there.

as so many of my family live there. And that's a massive disincentive to stand in protest. So there is a real chilling effect. But I'm unfortunately quite old. So I think I've had my fill of protests. Not to say I wouldn't feel like protesting some more, but I at least have a

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voice here now. But the reason. I'm speaking today is that I've

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I'm speaking today is that I've heard the anger and frustration of the young. They need to make their voices heard on the issues that will critically affect their future. And in this case, I'm particularly in this case, I'm particularly thinking of environmental issues and climate change. And our job in this climate change. And our job in this House is to enable those voices, not to crush them. Not to frighten them into submission, and not to chill into submission, and not to chill them till they're frozen out.



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Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

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Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. My Lords, I believe. Well, I hope that there is one thing for members that there is one thing for members of this noble House agree upon, and that is that none of us wishes to see the rise of the far right, or of see the rise of the far right, or of any political movement that feeds upon public fear and the failures of upon public fear and the failures of our institutions. Yet that is precisely what is happening in the
17:34
Baroness Cash Portrait Baroness Cash (Conservative)
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precisely what is happening in the UK today. And I have come here today to address what is not in this bill, which I believe is a missed

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opportunity to address some of those. Most significant. And significant and pressing

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And significant and pressing issues of our time. The public has issues of our time. The public has lost faith in the even handedness of policing and the moral courage of policing and the moral courage of those in authority. And when people see double standards, or to. Tear standards, resentment grows and standards, resentment grows and trust dies. This bill is a chance to trust dies. This bill is a chance to restore that trust, to ensure that the criminal justice system in the criminal justice system in Britain is not captive to ideology, and not any more paralysed by fear.

and not any more paralysed by fear. So far, and I commend much that is in it, but so far it fails to in it, but so far it fails to address the underlying causes of what is known by the public now and

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what is known by the public now and by our media. As two tier policing.

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As two tier policing. We are failing to confront too many uncomfortable truths. And we many uncomfortable truths. And we have seen where that fear leads. In Rotherham and Telford, thousands of children. And we're still counting, by the way, were abused while officials looked our way. The J and Casey reviews both record that professionals and I quote, were nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist. One police officer put it more bluntly it was safer to do nothing.

Let me repeat that. It was safer to do nothing. That single sentence should haunt us, and I hope that that sentence will hang over this House while we scrutinise and look to close the gaps in this bill. And what a time

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to have a debate about introducing a definition of Islamophobia. May I. Remind.

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Remind. The noble members that Baroness Casey, for her efforts, was voted Casey, for her efforts, was voted Islamophobe of the year. It is not right that those who have the right that those who have the courage to address these issues are attacked and accused of being racist for them. And I know that the noble for them. And I know that the noble Baroness Lady Leavitt will take seriously these issues, and I hope that we can work together to address them.

The same paralysis has cost

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them. The same paralysis has cost murders. Of banners.

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Of banners. Muhammad and Ahmed are just two examples. Both young women sought examples. Both young women sought help. Both were dismissed as family disputes. Both killed. The government has promised to.

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government has promised to. Define on a. Base law and that is welcome. But definition without duty is not protection. We will need clear spelled out statutory obligations to act, to report, to share intelligence, to intervene. Likewise

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with grooming. I'm running out of time. But even as the police have shrunk.

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From appalling crimes, they have continued to prosecute non crime hate incidents. And I support hate incidents. And I support everything that has been said on that. It is part of the same issue, that. It is part of the same issue, and we need to show the courage that this country needs so that we don't end up driving voters into the arms of something less savoury. Why, in of something less savoury. Why, in the current climate, would anyone do what the Casey or Jay reports urge? The very definition of two tier policing is that fear has dictated who is protected and who is

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silenced. My Lords, I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss the matters opportunity to discuss the matters in this Bill and welcome the noble Baroness Daley Levitt to the to the front bench. She's obviously used to front bench. She's obviously used to dealing with gargantuan matters such as the my profession, the Rics, in
17:39
Earl of Lytton Portrait The Earl of Lytton (Crossbench)
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as the my profession, the Rics, in her previous capacity. So I wish her well in her endeavours in chairing through this particular 400 page bill. Now, my first point relates to anti-social behaviour. Now in my experience, which is from into neighbour matters. The distinction between perpetrator and victim is seldom absent. A point made by my Noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool. And so when I encounter instances of an ASB order that is made in such terms as normal, life is actually impeded, and then the so-called victim proceeds to indulge in exactly the same sort of behaviour that has been prevented by his neighbour.

Then I know something isn't right. There needs to be a better balance. There needs to be the order making powers and enforcement ought to be subject to better rules, competence and oversight in my view. Now my second point relates to clauses 72, 79 and 80, principally regarding the duty to report of suspected sex abuse of children. Now, I fully support that duty, and particularly insofar as it's apply to the persons listed as who are under the duty to report, and it should have consequences for those who culpably fail to report or who obstruct that duty.

This follows the prima facie principle that victims should be heard and believed, and that a report of a matter involving commission of a crime, as defined by law, should be so recorded unless there is credible evidence to the contrary. And particularly in the context of young people once on a record in the system, the matter then demands attention and conscious process, including one hope some support to the victim. That is, until such time as additional verifiable information dictates otherwise.

Outside that recording system, there's nothing and no practical form of subsidiary watch list or anything like that. So spotting a trend, pattern or commonality in the data outside a formal record seems to me to depend on charts. Recognition by an official. Well, so far so good. But then clause 80 proceeds to start unravelling things by effectively deferring to the balance of probabilities. Evidence based approach inherent in police procedures and Home Office counting rules. Now, my Lords, I believe this is incompatible with the intent and aim of clauses 72 and 79 suspicions, which is what we are talking about.

Reporting almost inevitably lack hard evidence. So if I say that if I if, say, the recording officer of peace does not happen to be satisfied as to the evidence, and therefore does not believe it can be reliably stated to be a crime that's being committed, or that's on his or her balance of probabilities test, as suggested in guidance, or as directed by the senior officer. It may not get recorded. Not only does this court perversity because recorded crime is related to police performance, but it risks repetition of precisely the outcomes of the Bradford child sex sexual exploitation case.

When vulnerable young people were not believed and criminal enterprise went unchecked. So in my view, clause 80 requires a rethink or simply deleted. But I do note that this may have wider implications for the way in which crime is recorded and acted upon. My final point relates to part nine. Now, I don't know if the Lords have made in passionate. Comments, but I can't. I am not alone, therefore, in sensing there's a degree of tendency to administrative overreach, a politically thin skinned reaction, even at times in the cumulative measures eroding the right to demonstrate.

And I would just say that I do very much relate to the comments of noble Baroness Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and the noble comments of the comments of noble Baroness Lady Kash, and I hope that between us, we can get a better balance of what we actually mean by allowing people the necessary freedom and opportunity to vent their emotions and. Campaign and demonstrate safely.

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Thank you. My Lords, may I congratulate
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Baroness Donaghy Portrait Baroness Donaghy (Labour)
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My Lords, may I congratulate Baroness Leavitt on her excellent presentation. When you get to number. 65.

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65. It's probably best to adapt your speech a little bit. So if I could

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save a bit of time and say I agreed with every word that Baroness Bertin. Own and.

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Own and. Said end of, I. Should first of all. Say that I have been a supporter

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Say that I have been a supporter of Liberty and its predecessor, the Nccl, for 50 years. But I also.

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But I also. Had the privilege of leading Sir Chris Bryant's Private Member's Bill Chris Bryant's Private Member's Bill on increased protection for emergency service workers in this House, that the assaults on

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Emergency Workers Offences Act, 2018. So you could argue.

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I've had a foot in both camps. So therefore I want to make a brief point about political about police employment issues, not, strictly speaking, part of the bill, but then speaking, part of the bill, but then move on to the issue of aggravated offences. Now, I. Appreciate that offences. Now, I. Appreciate that the employment issue is not a direct part of the bill. However, as a former Chair of Aid Cast and fellow former Chair of Aid Cast and fellow of the Chartered Institute of Personnel Directors, I want to make a point about the importance of a point about the importance of retaining skills and experience in the police force.

When you cut back the police force. When you cut back a police force by 20,000. It has a devastating effect. When you lose literally hundreds of years of experience, it might mean you lose

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experience, it might mean you lose some bad habits, but. You also. Lose the institutional memory and

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Lose the institutional memory and a reduction in on the job training capacity. If you reduce a service to

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capacity. If you reduce a service to the bone as the last government did. You have a demoralised.

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Workforce and a stampede for the door when the opportunity for a retirement. Package arrives?

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And those were the grievance. Are the. Ones forced to stay. the. Ones forced to stay. Practicality says that the police will then. Prioritise their work and will then. Prioritise their work and leave other things undone, and dealing with attacks on lesbian, gay dealing with attacks on lesbian, gay and trans people are a long way down the list. And it might explain why retail theft and attacks on retail workers are so serious as we speak. workers are so serious as we speak.

It's this kind of short termism which makes the issues of and which makes the issues of and responsibilities of the police rather secondary. My plea to the rather secondary. My plea to the noble Lord the Minister is for adequate resources and for active management planning, which allows the police to do their job.

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the police to do their job. attempt. By. Rachel Taylor MP to extend

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Rachel Taylor MP to extend aggravated offences to include attacks on gay, lesbian, trans and attacks on gay, lesbian, trans and disabled people and I congratulate the government for its commitment to include this in the bill. Could the Minister say a little bit more about the likely content of that amendment? The Law Commission reports on hate crime laws in 2021

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recommended, and I quote, that aggravated offences be extended to. Cover all.

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Cover all. Existing characteristics. In. Hate crime. Law. Race.

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Religion, sexual orientation, disability and transgender identity. And as is already.

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And as is already. Been said, it was also in the Labour Party manifesto of 2024. Why Labour Party manifesto of 2024. Why this hasn't been on the statute book for years. In this day and age one can only wonder. But I look forward,

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can only wonder. But I look forward, my Lords, to our consideration. Of the.

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Of the. Committee stage. My Lords. Whilst I agree with so much that has been

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I agree with so much that has been said so eloquently today, I wanted. To focus. On three. Areas close.

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To my heart. The inadequacies. Of enforcement. Of the criminal law.

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How to deal with the wild West of e-scooters and cycling. And the best. Way to reduce shoplifting.

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Way to reduce shoplifting. Although not declare a bill as. An interest. My son is in fact a. Detective in. The met, and. I think.
17:48
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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I think. He would. Agree with. What the. Noble Baroness lady Joanna has just said. About the need.

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About the need. To. Retain skills and experience. In police. Now, in a long career in and outside government, at the top and.

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On the front line, I. Have discovered that enforcement of the law is as important as the

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of the law is as important as the rules and regulations themselves. As Calvin Coolidge, president of the United States, said, the laws.

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the United States, said, the laws. Of the country must. substitute. For law enforcement.

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For law enforcement. And that is why. In March. 2024, we, the conservatives, ensured that police numbers were at their highest ever. For this bill to be affected. In fact, if they need

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be affected. In fact, if they need to rise further and the resource needs to be. Focussed on the. Right things away from the

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Right things away from the obsession with. Online harm, prosecutions for tweets. Non hate crime. And into neighbourhood.

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And into neighbourhood. Policing. The truth is that we've moved away from the founding principle

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away from the founding principle that police need. To be part of the. Community that. They serve. They are increasingly a wholly

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They are increasingly a wholly separate organism, usually. Absent from our streets and. Town centres, and sometimes.

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Appearing to want to control our thoughts. Part of the problem. Has been the. Huge increase in

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Has been the. Huge increase in bureaucracy, with energetic police men and women weighed down by the paperwork requirements and the

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paperwork requirements and the inefficiency of the police, CPS and and. Less than.

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Compatible IT systems. My noble friend. Lady Coffey has drawn. Attention to the burden of.

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Attention to the burden of. Yet more reporting. Requirements in this bill. Now, to my. Mind, there is an enforcement

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crisis, and I'd ask the minister what he's planning to do about it. I'm very. Pleased to see clause 106.

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Pleased to see clause 106. Introduced in the other place, which. Creates new offences. Of causing death or serious

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Of causing death or serious injury by dangerous cycling, or by careless or inconsiderate cycling. I also like clause eight, which makes also like clause eight, which makes it easier to seize an e-scooter being driven antisocial. Hogan.

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Hogan. Ha actually. Wants to. Go further. Now, as local lords know. I've been.

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I've been. Horrified by this wild west of scooters and cyclists, especially. Speedy electronic. Versions, dashing through.

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Versions, dashing through. pavements. And spreading. Terrors amongst mothers with

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Terrors amongst mothers with and. Sometimes me. I've been knocked

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Sometimes me. I've been knocked lawlessness. In. London has got worse. And the.

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And the. Results can be seen in the air and emissions. However, there is no need to wait for the new act as need to wait for the new act as cycling on pavements is illegal. Current laws. Minister.

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To. Consider a hot. Spot policy, perhaps by the Transport police, to crack down on bad behaviour by cyclists and e-scooter arrests. We know that this sort of enforcement works. When I sort of enforcement works. When I worked at Downing Street in the 90s, the met got burglary down with Operation Bumblebee and more

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Operation Bumblebee and more recently we've seen the success for. Crack down on mobile. Phone thieves at Oxford Circus.

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Phone thieves at Oxford Circus. My final plea for better enforcement relates to shoplifting, which has

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also exploded recently. And I know from my time at Tesco how this. Ruined honest. Endeavour and allows.

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Endeavour and allows. difficult. For the staff and there. Is a wider impact. I remember.

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Is a wider impact. I remember. Women putting large. Jars of Nescafé. And beef, fill it down their trousers to sell and it down their trousers to sell and fund their drug habit, and I remember the drudgery and cost of adding security tags to every

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adding security tags to every responds. To. Our store's long standing

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Our store's long standing campaign and creates a new offence of assaulting a retail worker. Clause 39. Seeks to tackle.

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The. Ridiculous situation whereby so-called low value theft under £200 so-called low value theft under £200 tends to go on prosecuted. However, I note that the opposition has concerned about how this is

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achieved, and we'd also like to see tougher sentences on shoplifting. Who where? There are more than.

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Who where? There are more than. conclusion. I. Return to Sir Robert Peel. He not

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Return to Sir Robert Peel. He not only founded them. But gave officers clear guidelines on. Expected behaviour. So establishing a highly visible

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So establishing a highly visible and positive relationship with the British people. In this respect,

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British people. In this respect, it's time for us to revisit our roots. In seeking to.

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In seeking to. Intervene in the gap. My intention. Intention is to

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My intention. Intention is to bring about the minimum of delay as we reach the most important stage of the Second Reading, namely the the Second Reading, namely the winding up speeches. I unhesitatingly begin by entirely unhesitatingly begin by entirely endorsing the words of Baroness Levitt, my new noble friend, to whom
17:52
Lord Hacking Portrait Lord Hacking (Labour)
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Levitt, my new noble friend, to whom much welcome when opening up this debate. Yes. Labour policing has been neglected. Yes. We need to pay much more attention, for example, to the awful offence of child sexual abuse. But in the steps of Lord Garner, although in rather stronger language. I have to say this bill is a monster, and indeed I am holding it in my hand until I have to put it down because I think it's going to crash any moment, and it's causing

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more of my notes. To go in a mess. That ha!

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To go in a mess. That ha! But in its 4422 pages it seeks, if my arithmetic is correct, no less than 44 previous statutes, and to than 44 previous statutes, and to amend these statutes. Then back to the. Offences Against the Person Act the. Offences Against the Person Act of 1861 and the Limitation Act of 1980. In some cases the amendments 1980. In some cases the amendments are extensive. For example, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. Look at Proceeds of Crime Act 2002.

Look at circle 16 of the bill and pages 316 circle 16 of the bill and pages 316 to 323, no less than seven pages of amendments. While we cannot change amendments. While we cannot change this with this, my Lord, in this bill, we should be aware of what we bill, we should be aware of what we are doing. Not only are we imposing upon ourselves in committee the upon ourselves in committee the doing our job properly, the task of putting in front of ourselves all 44 putting in front of ourselves all 44 of these statutes while seeking to amendment them.

My Lords, what about this bill becoming law? How are the police and everybody else involved in an enforcement game to cope? When in committee, we must do our duty. However long it takes. Fortunately, my Lords, we have in the my noble friend not Hanson, the nicest of ministers who's got ever enduring patience, but he's going to be tried

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out. By Lords. Although this bill is extremely wide ranging, has.

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wide ranging, has. focus. We have had an interesting and

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We have had an interesting and diffuse debate, but we can discern something. Now of. The government's central aims. First, to help halve violence against women and girls. Secondly, to protect children from criminal exploitation and abuse on which.
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Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Portrait Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)
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exploitation and abuse on which. By. Noble friends Baroness Benjamin Burns, Hamwee and Baroness Featherstone, the.

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Featherstone, the. Noble Lady Baroness, Finlay. Baroness Cash and others spoke so compellingly. Then to cut.

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Street violence, particularly knife crime, to reduce anti-social behaviour and to increase behaviour and to increase neighbourhood policing and public confidence in the police. My Lords, on these benches we support all

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these aims. However. As it. Stands. The Bill risks many unforeseen

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The Bill risks many unforeseen and undesirable consequences. Broadly, we will seek to ensure.

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Broadly, we will seek to ensure. unjustifiably. Reduce citizens. Rights and liberties, that the

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Rights and liberties, that the bill should not unnecessarily create new or duplicative offences. That the bill will keep the law up to the bill will keep the law up to date with new technology. As my Noble friend Lord Clement Jones.

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Explained that the bill will enhance police effectiveness and community confidence and will not increase pressure on the. Police or.

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Police or. Local authorities. And generally that the bill will not make managing the criminal justice.

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the criminal justice. System more difficult. Either by increasing court backlogs or making

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it harder. For. Courts to handle their. Workload effectively and justly.

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effectively and justly. Or by increasing the. Prison population. When our aim is to reduce. Re-offending, reverse.

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Re-offending, reverse. Sentence inflation and. Rehabilitate more offenders in the a.

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a. Few points. The detail. Will leave to 11. Days in the. Committee. We may.

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Committee. We may. Need even more. For proper consideration of the many expected amendments. Just as Lord Sandhurst predicted. First, though, the protection of citizens rights,

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particularly the right to peaceful protest, whatever. Our. Differing views on. The horrors in the.

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The horrors in the. Middle East. Many have been frankly shocked that the Terrorism frankly shocked that the Terrorism Act has been deployed, as it has. Because of the proscription of the Palestine Action Group. Whether or Palestine Action Group. Whether or not that was sanctioned by the legislation. Many hundreds of

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protesters face prosecution. For offences labelled as. Terrorist for taking part in protests.

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In an. Entirely non-violent way. Such prosecutions.

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May prevent them from finding employment or travelling to the States, as my Neville. Friend Baroness Miller. Pointed out.

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Pointed out. Or indeed the EU. Authorisation. Scheme is launched next year.

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Scheme is launched next year. These are not groundless scare stories. They are points made by

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government and. Senior officers. To deter. Attendance at these protests. So we will be seeking stronger statutory protection for the right of peaceful protest and a review of the threshold for so-called terrorist offences. I am concerned terrorist offences. I am concerned that the noble Lady. Baroness Levitt's generally very clear and helpful opening, for which I thank her, revealed on these issues a lack of balance in government. The

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speeches of Baroness Chakrabarti, Lord Cashman and my Noble friends. Lord Strasbourg.

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Lord Strasbourg. And Baroness Miller a number of others, provided a welcome counterweight. We also worry.

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We also worry. About the indiscriminate use of. Live. Facial recognition, as Lord Strasbourg explained.

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While it may have. Some uses, for example in connection with retail theft, car connection with retail theft, car break ins, bags, matches and other street crime, I suggest to Lord McKenzie and others that its use needs careful review and control. needs careful review and control. Unsafe guarded access to DVLA information or. Electronic information on which the noble Lord,

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Lord Anderson of Ipswich, spoke, present similar risks. So while agreeing with what with. Much.

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Of. What he said. We don't always go along with Lord Hogg and. His approach. To.

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Police access to personal information. However, I suggest that

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information. However, I suggest that the concept of. Stewarded public. Interest data. Trusts introduced, for example, in Canada, Australia and Belgium, offer balance on these privacy issues and deserves serious consideration. We must not slide.

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Inadvertently. Carelessly or by. Stealth towards being a

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Stealth towards being a surveillance state. Next, the respect order proposals are not risk free, although making these orders free, although making these orders will be for the courts. Applications for them largely be for our underresourced police and local underresourced police and local authorities. How confident can the government be of their usefulness? government be of their usefulness? Will not the financial and administrative burden of securing these orders, organising their these orders, organising their supervision and then policing and punishing their breach outweigh their effectiveness in reducing crime and antisocial behaviour? Are

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crime and antisocial behaviour? Are the procedures robust. In respecting citizens liberties. Before respect. Orders are made?

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Orders are made? There must be wide consultation. On the guidance and an

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independent review of existing powers. Then the Bill would create many new offences. I started.

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I started. In preparation to count them, but ran out of steam. A number of them duplicate existing offences and will make the criminal law more complicated.

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complicated. As Lord Davis and Garre pointed out. And as the noble and learned Lord Lord Garnier said, graphically described, supported by Lord Vaizey and Lord Russell of Liverpool and others, other provisions. Increase existing penalties. Now this mixture

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is generally not helpful. More prosecutions for. Complex new offences will tend to

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Complex new offences will tend to clog up the clause and exacerbate the appalling backlogs. We so. Desperately need to clear. More

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Desperately need to clear. More and longer prison sentences will do nothing to reduce reoffending or its

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nothing to reduce reoffending or its massive cost to society. We already imprison more people. And. For longer than other countries

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For longer than other countries in Western Europe. Our prisons are still overcrowded and understaffed and in many. Cases dilapidated, and in many. Cases dilapidated, often serving more as academies of crime than as centres of reform. We crime than as centres of reform. We should be reversing sentence inflation, relying on more and better community sentencing, and focusing on. Rehabilitation and training. The sentencing bill will

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training. The sentencing bill will cover these issues, but this bill betrays a. Lack.

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Of coordination across criminal justice issues while opposing unnecessary new offences. I will unnecessary new offences. I will relay the amendment I propose to the Domestic Abuse Bill to criminalise psychotherapists who exercise controlling or coercive behaviour over their patients, often over their patients, often vulnerable young adults. When I move this amendment in 2021, with all parties, support the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, who is now in a stronger position to influence these matters, argued that we had made a powerful case for change, and that he hoped the government would, as he put it, set out a pathway to remedy this undeniably serious problem.

I hope Finally.

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On police effectiveness and public. Confidence, and on pressure on the. Police and local authorities, the. Police and local authorities, my Noble friend. Baroness Doocey rightly said the pressure on the police largely comes down to resources. For example, on drug testing and law enforcement, this government, like the last, government, like the last, persistently understates both the shortage of resources for policing and the pressures on the police, and the pressures on the police, which diminish both police effectiveness and public confidence.

effectiveness and public confidence. My Lords, public confidence means community confidence, which requires a genuine commitment to a genuine commitment to neighbourhood policing. Addressed by Baroness Doocey, and to ending

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Baroness Doocey, and to ending racism and hate crime. On which. Baroness Lawrence, Lord Cashman and others spoke. We will seek and others spoke. We will seek progress on these issues. I add one final. Point on policing and police final. Point on policing and police resources. The prevalent minimum or zero response to so-called minor zero response to so-called minor crime undermines public confidence. It said that minimal response is It said that minimal response is acceptable for crimes that are low level and low value.

But just as Lord. Birt and Viscount Goschen described crimes such as bike theft, car break-ins, shop theft, mobile phone watch and bag snatchers are committed on an industrial scale. Such offences may often be low value in isolation, but these are not

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the. Work. Of multiple repeat offenders and

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Of multiple repeat offenders and professional gangs. Concerted efforts to ensure their police more effectively would do much to restore public confidence in our policing. My Lords. May I first of all, extend my thanks to all noble Lords, to their contributions to this Second Reading, but in particular to the noble Lady Baroness Leavitt, for the clarity of her opening, for which I clarity of her opening, for which I am sure we're all grateful. My noble and learned friend, Lord Garnier, I opined quite correctly that passing opined quite correctly that passing laws is not a solution, and that reflected an observation from the noble Lord Burt about the plague of noble Lord Burt about the plague of everyday crime that already exists.

And indeed, it was a point reflected by the noble Lady Baroness Neville-Rolfe about the need for Neville-Rolfe about the need for neighbourhood policing. It might be observed that in the period from observed that in the period from 2010 to 2023, neighbourhood crime in England and Wales fell very substantially. That progress was hard won through local policing, prevention and firm sentencing, rather than the creation of new laws. But of course, many of the measures in this bill will not be effective if police funding, police numbers and police priorities are not able to keep pace.

The National Police Chiefs Council recently observed that the Lord Chancellor's plan for police funding will result in a shortfall in police funding in England. Wales of £1.2 billion. Per force. These are. Police forces have had to rely on borrowing in order to achieve the necessary delivery of services. And, rather worryingly, it's been estimated that the cost of debt servicing in respect of these liabilities is projected to rise by 50% in the next three years. So we're creating a snowball of underfunding.

But of course, no additional funding is available to manage the potential increase in the number of offenders coming into our streets as a result of early release or as a result of the reduction in spending in in prison education, all of which is liable to impact and increase recidivism. All that said, of course, we welcome many of the provisions that in this bill and we support many of the provisions. The bill follows the Criminal Justice Bill, which was introduced by the previous government and which fell after the last election.

Indeed, about one third of the clauses in the bill are essentially the same as those in the previous bill. Unfortunately, this government has left out much and introduced a watering down of much of the previous bill's intent. And it is that that I intend to address. I would begin with those provisions that should have been added back to the bill, and which were the subject of proposed amendments in the other place. My Lords. The government claims to be tough on crime, but have consistently resisted amendments.

In the other place that sought to bolster the bill's provisions. They're reluctant to put into statute more robust sentence guidance and indeed a rather ducked responsibility by referring repeatedly to their proposals for a review. In particular, the government is unwilling to introduce tougher sentencing in respect to persistent retail crime offenders, a matter that's been addressed by a number of your noble lordships. In the context of that being such a social blight in many areas today. In the other place, amendments were proposed to introduce mandatory sentencing for courts dealing with repeat retail crime offenders, and also to introduce the requirement for electronic tagging of repeat offenders.

The response from the government and the other place was, and I quote, sentencing in individual cases is a matter for our independent judiciary, unquote. With the greatest of respect, my Lord, that response is as empty as it is true. The Lords, further, the government will not commit to introducing appropriate penalties to protect farmers and tradespeople. Again, a point that was touched upon by some of your noble lordships. We moved in the other place an amendment in respect of the Equipment Theft Act, to ensure that fines made under that act reflected the cost of replacing equipment stolen from farmers and tradespeople.

We also proposed an amendment to the Sentencing Act 2020 to make the theft of tools from tradesmen an aggravating factor. Why aggravating? Well, because of the double loss, the tradesman not only loses his tools, he loses the means to carry on his trade. So I asked the Lord, the minister, to explain why such provisions will not be the subject of this bill. It does indicate an unwillingness of the government to address these issues head on, and to instead talk of a review.

Furthermore, the government in the other place would not commit on the maximum penalty for possession of an offensive weapon with intent to commit unlawful violence. Despite its manifesto promise to reduce knife crime substantially. The Independent Reviewer of terrorism legislation, particularly in the wake of the Southport attack, argued that the proposed sentence of four years was far too low, and yet in the other place, the government has resisted a proposal to raise the maximum penalty on such heinous crimes from four years to 14 years.

The minister said in the other place that it will, and, I quote, conduct a review Lords further, the government has resisted an amendment to make child murder a standalone aggravating factor in sentencing guidelines. They once again ceded responsibility to a separate body. Rather than taking any action in this instance. They suggest that there should be a review by the Law Commission. The laws. Perhaps the government will then review the reviews. Normally we expect to find a review being a message that something is going to be placed in the long grass.

It does appear to me that so far, the long grass is becoming unduly crowded. But Lord, can I move on to some of the more pragmatic options that were recommended. And the other place, in order to address the issue of crime? It had been proposed that there should be an expansion of police powers of stop and search, but again, that was resisted by the government in the other place. Although again, I find this difficult to reconcile with our manifesto promise to crack down on the knife crime epidemic.

The amendment proposed to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1984, was to lower the threshold required for stop and search, albeit it would still require perception with regard to violence. And again, I asked the or the Minister to explain the logic of not embracing that simple step in order to attempt to address the knife crime epidemic. Furthermore, in the other place, the government was presented with two pragmatic amendments to crack down on the issue of tipping offences, and that would have involved, first of all, making a third party responsible, whether in vicarious liability, imposing a statutory guidance that the cost of removing the fly tipping should be reflected in the penalty, and that in some instances it should be possible to impose driving points on those who engaged in fly tipping.

The government's response was to say that they would consult with Defra. I thought Defra was a part of the government, but it doesn't seem to me that in this instance the government is really willing to face up to the hard need for appropriate penalties in respect of these crimes. And again, I invite the noble Lord, the Minister, to explain why the matter should be deferred in that way. Can I turn to the matter of police action and the need for police action in the other place? An amendment would have required that there should be regular reporting on police presence, on stop and search, and on live facial recognition in areas with the highest levels of serious crime.

And I regret that the government should have resisted that, because if the public are meant to have faith in these proposals, it is sure they're going to be interested in knowing whether or not they're actually working. So again, I would invite consideration of that matter by the government as we go on to committee stage. Turning on to some of the issues around sexual crimes and sexual abuse. This was touched upon by the noble Lady Baroness Coffee. It was proposed that with regard to the offence of spiking, which is so obviously related to sexual offences, there should be a test of recklessness rather than intent.

And when you
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Lord Keen of Elie Portrait Lord Keen of Elie (Conservative)
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consider the nature of the crime, it seems perfectly sensible that reckless recklessness should be the reckless recklessness should be the appropriate test. The government have argued that adding recklessness have argued that adding recklessness to the relevant statutory test would create confusion, and I would welcome the new law. The Minister's explanation is support, confusion. He anticipates that simple amendment He anticipates that simple amendment to the test would actually create. Some laws. Those are the matters Some laws. Those are the matters that we must immediately consider for amendment going forward.

If we for amendment going forward. If we are to introduce proper teeth to these proposals. But I wish to address finally one further matter which should be removed by virtue of this bill, and it's been touched this bill, and it's been touched upon already by the noble Lord Young upon already by the noble Lord Young Non crime hate incidents. They have a chilling effect on free speech. They divert precious police time They divert precious police time away from tackling very real crimes.

Indeed, it's reported that over Indeed, it's reported that over 13,000 of these non crime hate incidents are now being logged each incidents are now being logged each year. Each year consuming an estimated 60,000 hours of police time. And this time in my respectful submission for that to be properly addressed, not by a review, but by a proper consideration of the policy that lies behind this. So we find ourselves in line with the suggestion of the noble Lord young, that this should be addressed in the Bill.

My Lords, this Bill is intended to be a step forward in addressing crime and policing. Unfortunately, it also risks being two steps back. The government should not persistently avoid hard and necessary decisions by deferring to wide, non-specific powers of sentencing or the wish for review after review. We can act now to significantly improve our means to tackle crime and to determine specific policies on punishment. As the original Conservative bill intended. I hope that we can raise the present bill to that necessary standard.

The bill has much to commend it, but it has much more to

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improve. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. I'm grateful to the almost 70 speakers in today's debate. And I speakers in today's debate. And I start by just declaring an interest on my own behalf. I'm a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and
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Lord Hanson of Flint Portrait Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and have been for 46 years and will obviously have an impact on my view of the measures on shop theft and on the assaults on shop workers. I'm pleased tonight to have the broad support of HMG opposition, and indeed the broad support of Liberal Democrat benches, with some caveats from both, and I look forward to the noble and learned Lord gentleman's amendments in committee, and I can't give them a response tonight on those details, but we're going to have plenty of time to discuss that.

And in saying I've got plenty of time to discuss that, I know that the Lord Russell of Liverpool, Baroness Browning, Baroness Fox and of Buckley and others mentioned the length of time and the size of the bill. Indeed, my Noble friend Lord Hacking did as well. We will have time to do that, and it will be discussed through the usual channels, and I look forward to a full and frank debate on this matter in due course. The bill deals with a number of key issues, and members have said about the theme in the bill.

There are several themes in this bill making our community safe, strengthening child sexual abuse prevention, tackling anti-social behaviour and knife crime. And, dare I say it, supporting free speech whilst at the same time ensuring that we have some measures on protest. Now the noble Lord Garnier, Lord Frost, Lord Vaizey and indeed my Noble friend Lord Hacking in their comments have said that there's a mixture of this bill. It doesn't have a theme, it's very large. It is a government programme, much of it based on a manifesto commitment.

And as my noble friend Baroness Levitt mentioned in her excellent maiden speech from his frontbench on a Second Reading debate. It is a manifesto commitment from the government to do most of the things in this Bill, and therefore we are going to do most of the things in this bill with the support of this House and the House of Commons. A lot of issues in the debate have gone around legislative proposals, certainly, but we've touched on neighbourhood policing, on courts, on speeding, on police presence, on speeding of justice and police numbers, etc.

My Noble friend, Lord McKenzie of Bramwell mentioned that and indeed the noble Lord, Viscount Goschen and Lords and has talked about delivery. Extremely important. Those things aren't in the bill, but they're extremely important matters that are before us today. So I just want to concentrate, if I may, on what is actually in the bill and the points that are being debated by noble Lords today. And then let me start with respect orders and youth diversion orders, which was raised by the Earl of Lytton, Lord Davis of Gamu, Lord Anderson of Ipswich and Baroness Kidron respect orders are a substantial new power which gives police and authorities effectively to deal with anti-social behaviour.

And I know Baroness Fox of Buckley had some criticism of them, and I know indeed Lord Marcus has got some challenge for them as well. But we believe them to be an effective tool and will have a chance to debate that in due course in this committee. They use diversion orders I think are an important matter again. The noble Lord Anderson of Ipswich, we will come back to that. But it's designed to help prevent terrorism and prevent people drifting into terrorism.

So I think it's an important measure. Members have talked about shop theft and I've had that now. Baroness. Doocey Baroness Stowell, Lord Herbert Baroness Hazarika, the noble Lord Sandhurst and noble Lord Davis of Gower, and the Baroness Neville-Rolfe of all raised that issue. Shop theft is extremely important. It's something we shouldn't tolerate. That's why we're removing the £200 threshold. That's why we're putting a focus on it with policing. That's why we've encouraged police forces to tackle it. And the measures that were were removing, I think will send a signal.

It's still for judicial discretion, but it will send a very strong signal, as will the issues of mobile phone theft, with giving tracking powers for officers to be able to visit a premise straight away. So I think there, you know, I look forward to debating them, but I think they're important measures to take action on that. And the issue closest to my heart, I have to say in this bill is the issue of retail workers and attacks on retail workers. And again, Baroness Stowell Baroness Doocey my Noble friend Lord Harnett of Everton, Baroness Thornton and Baroness Browning and indeed Baroness Fox have contributed to the debate around that.

This is a long standing campaign, which is why I declare my membership of Usdaw. I've moved amendments when in the House of Commons on this issue over many years, and I appreciate very much the support of my Noble friend, Lord Hallett of Everton and the members of Usdaw, along with the businesses, the co-op, Tesco, Sainsbury's and others who have raised this issue. The new offence will ensure that we put on an obligation to ensure that those who uphold the law, which is what colleagues do in shops on solvents, abuse cigarette sales and alcohol, are also protected by the law and I hope that will have good support as a whole.

There's been a lot of debate around civil liberties, Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Baroness Chakrabarti, the Right

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Reverend prelate, the Bishop of the. Grateful to the noble Earl for giving way. But before he moves on.

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giving way. But before he moves on. I wondered if you could just respond to my question, which. Was why.

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Was why. Has the government decided only to legislate for. Those. Groups of workers?

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Groups of workers? The argument I will put to the noble Baroness now is that Shopworkers are upholding the law on solvent abuse, alcohol, cigarette solvent abuse, alcohol, cigarette sales and other things. There will be representations I know on other areas and we will have to examine areas and we will have to examine those representations. But I want to, after a long campaign, get this over the line, really do want to get over the line, really do want to get this over the line.

And I hope that she will support those measures, whatever amendments she pretends, as whatever amendments she pretends, as she may well bring forward. Accordingly, there's been considerable debate around civil considerable debate around civil liberties from Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Baroness Chakrabarti, Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Derby, Baroness Doocey, Lord of Derby, Baroness Doocey, Lord Strasbourg and others. We are making some changes and we will bring some some changes and we will bring some further changes forward. But the principle of all this, including comments from my Noble friend, comments from my Noble friend, Baroness Cashman and Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer the principle of this is that we are trying to ensure that we do have freedom of speech.

We do have the right to protest, but we also have the right to ensure that protest is managed in an effective way and that there are responsibilities in protest, as well as the right to protest. We have also looked at the question of the Vagrancy Act and the noble Lord Davis of Garet mentioned that, particularly in the government, is being clear that no one should be criminalised, which is why we're repealing the outdated 1824 act, and we will be examining and committed to repeal of the Vagrancy Act, once a replacement that can be determined.

So I hope that clarifies that for him, the noble Lord Hogan Hare, amongst many other issues I'll come back to in a moment raised suicide of policing. And again, we're working closely with the National Policing Wellbeing Service to examine on that. There has been a major debate from noble Lords and noble Ladies around the question of child exploitation and child sexual abuse, and the implementation. Baroness Grey-Thompson Baroness Hamwee, Right Reverend, Prelate of Derby, Baroness Royal, Baroness Benjamin and Baroness Kidron, the Lord Hampton, Lord Fox, the Earl of Lytton, Baroness Cash and others are.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff. Of all raised and discussed that issue, we're going to have a big debate on this. We just think we're trying to meet the recommendations of the recommendations. The noble Baroness Grey-Thompson Private Member's Bill stretches us a bit further. We're going to have a discussion around that. But I hope this bill, at the end of its process in this House, will have achieved an improvement in child protection services as a whole. We've also had a discussion around the big issue of abortion, and many noble members have raised that.

Baroness Spielman, Baroness O'Loan Baroness toffee, Lord Elliott said. Mitchell Fell, Baroness Matheson Baroness Hazarika Baroness Thornton, Baroness Lola, Lord Jackson, Lord Frost, Viscount Hailsham, Lord farmer, Baroness Monckton and also Lord Hampton. They've all raised that issue and I just have to say to them now, there are different pressures on that somewhat that provision taking out someone's hit, maintaining the government will remain neutral on this matter and will facilitate whatever the Parliament agrees in the end. And we will look at those issues.

Whatever Parliament settles on in the end, and the government will have a free vote on that matter as a whole. The issue of police misconduct and police vetting has been raised very strongly. Baroness Lawrence by Noble friend, Lord McKenzie and others have raised that issue. And particularly in the light of the Panorama investigation we touched on in Question Time today, there are a number of measures in the bill to support strengthening police vetting, and I very much welcome those and hope they will be looked at positively in the future.

The issue of knife crime was mentioned by the noble Lord Hampton, by noble Lord Clement Jones, by by Noble friend Baroness Lawrence, and by Baron, a noble Lord Burt. And again the measures in the bill are designed to regulate the supply of knives by people who wish to use those knives in a way which is not conducive to good behaviour, and which causes death, misery and injury. And we have to take those actions. And I think it's important that we do so.

And there's been a lot of discussion again around the issue of hate crime. And I want to touch, first of all, on the issue that was raised by my Noble friend Baroness Donaghy Biden, Baroness Thornton, by Baroness Hunt of Bethnal Green, and by my Noble friend Lord Cashman, which is the question of the aggravated offence. It is a Labour manifesto commitment at the general election. We are carefully considering now how best to amend the law to ensure the protected characteristics have that fairness conclusions later during the passage of the Bill.

But that commitment has been given and we will examine that in due course. But that leads me on to the question, which is, again, a live issue for noble Lords, which is about the issue of non crime hate incidents. The noble Lord Herbert has indicated very strongly what has happened in relation to the National Police Chiefs Council, and I'm grateful to him for the support he's done in giving the review on this matter. We've had certainly discussions from Lord Frost and from other Lords, including the noble Lord Young recently and others in the committee in the House or the Second Reading about this matter, and we're going to have a debate about it.

But I'm hoping that the review that the novel Lord Herbert has instigated will help colour whatever amendments are brought forward. And the noble Lord Moynihan has mentioned that as well. And I think it's important that we have that debate and discussion, but I want to have it influenced by the review from the Police Chiefs Council. If noble Lords think that is appropriate to do so. A number of noble Lords have mentioned the pornography review, and I'm grateful to Baroness, both in particularly for the work that she has done on that Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge Baroness Shawcross, Wolfson, Baroness Kidron Baroness Hogg Lord Vaizey and my Noble friend Baroness Donaghy have all discussed and made contributions today on the Pornography Review.

We are committed to taking any necessary action following consideration of the noble Baronesses recommendations. We've committed to criminalising pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation in this bill, and we'll be bringing forward an amendment to that effect and where we can, in relation to the recommendations of the noble Baronesses report, we will be taking early action to undertake that as a whole. Noble Baroness so mentioned on a based abuse, and I'm grateful again to her for, for, for our review.

The noble Baroness was there when we started. She's now moved over there. Another Baroness, lady so called for a statutory definition of so-called honour based abuse, supported by Baroness Cash. And I can say to her that we're going to work closely with the honour based abuse sector to develop a statutory definition. We've given that commitment, and I agree it's vital that all professionals with safeguarding responsibilities have the right framework to identify victims and perpetrators. And I will be again looking at that during the course of this bill.

Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge mentioned spiking. It's an important measure. And again, I will reflect on points that she's made in this discussion. And I was pleased for the welcome by the noble Lord McCall of College for the measures on Cuckolding and the cookery that we have up for Golding, for doing. Sorry, it's been a long day in committee. It's been a long day in the chamber today. I've spent, apart from a very quick 22nd call of nature, I've been in for the whole day, so it's been a long day for the offence of cook cooking.

I'm grateful for his support on that measure as a whole. And now we've also had a range of new ideas for the bill, and I look forward, honestly to developing and arguing and having a discussion around the amendments during the passage of the bill. I just say at the start, I'm happy to meet any members, if I can, who are going to raise those issues. I've got firearms and cycling from the noble Lord Hogan have I've got historical weapons which has been raised by Lord Hawken.

I know Lord Lucas takes an interest in that. I've had messages on child abuse from Baroness Hazarika and Lord, folks, I've got the transport issues from the noble Earl Attlee. I've got deceased children from Baroness Kidron and the chat box issues. I've got new proposals on cyber digital from Lord Clement Jones. I've got Lord Walney raising a number of issues to deal with the terrorism review. I've got universal jurisdiction from my Noble friend Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws. I've got the cumulative impact issues from Lord Walney, I've got facial recognition from Lord Strasbourg, I've got vehicle non-compliance from the noble Lord Lucas, I've got fraud from Lord Cromwell, from Lord bird, from Baroness Morrissey, and from Baroness Coffee on all of those things.

I'm happy to meet and discuss, and we'll let us look at what is tabled. Let us look at what is put down and the government will reflect on it. We may disagree at the end, but let's have that discussion as a whole on the fraud issue though. However, for the noble Lord Cromwell in particular, I am the government's first fraud minister and I am producing at the moment anti-fraud minister. Really. But it's called it's called fraud. Minister, for the purposes of the discussion here today, I have a challenge from the government to produce a new fraud strategy.

We're in the process of working on that. And by January, February of next year, there will be a three year fraud strategy produced, which will cover some of the points that the noble Lord Cromwell, Burt and others are mentioning to date. I know also that the issues of facial recognition for Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord Strasbourg and for the noble Baroness Doocey are important, and I want to ensure that we examine those. I've also had representations made by colleagues today, including the Lord Russell of Liverpool, Lady Royal of Blessed and others around the stalking measures in the Bill, and I hope they will welcome those, but we'll have a debate around that in due course.

My Noble friend Lady Whittaker has argued for the repeal of the provisions on encampments in part four of the police bill. We're aware of the High Court ruling, and we're aware of the points that have been made there, and we're going to consider how best to respond to that in due course. And we will do so. Lord Farmer has mentioned, again, issues to do with the recording of offences of intimate images. I'm not sure we're going to agree on some of these issues, but at least we'll I look forward to the amendments in due course.

If they're brought forward. Know from the 40 amendments in due course if they are brought forward. I also just want to note that Baroness Featherstone's points as well. I have I will reflect upon and we will look at those in due course. This is indeed a very large bill. The noble Lord team and Lord keen. I mentioned also the Equipment Theft Prevention Act and the implementation of that for farmers. We're looking now at when we can implement that and we're trying to bring the necessary regulations later this year so I can give him the answer and support on that.

I think I've covered, although it's very rushed every point by every member who has spoken in the debate today. I may not have satisfied every member, but I hope I've recognised them. That that's a horrific to do list. on a spectacula summation. The one thing that hasn't

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really been touched on, which I think we all almost spoke about, is resources. How are we going to pay. For it?

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For it? Well. Again, the bill itself, the bill

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Again, the bill itself, the bill itself covers a range of legislative options on on a range of matters. There is in parallel to that, to There is in parallel to that, to other aspects of work. We are to produce a policing white paper very shortly, which looks at how we can improve efficiencies. Look at some of the issues in policing and with the police chiefs, council and the police chiefs, council and colleagues and police and crime commissioners. Look at how we can improve and get better value and improve and get better value and better focus on policing, on the key issues that members have talked about today, because the very points that the Viscount Goschen mentioned, the very points that others have mentioned about delivery and about use of resources, about focus, and use of resources, about focus, and about saying that what are the police do on particular issues is extremely important, and it's extremely important, and it's absolutely vital that we do focus the police on government priorities.

Now, aside to the police white paper, we've also got issues to do with police funding and police with police funding and police budgets. We have actually given £1.2 billion extra this year to policing. There is a challenging settlement. There is a challenging settlement. That's going to mean that it's going to be challenging, but our job is to get better value out of that and to make sure that I think there's commonality between all of us in the chamber today, that the issues that matter to people are anti-social behaviour, shock, theft, violence against women and girls, child sexual abuse.

And although there are many, many policing priorities, those are things that this legislation is dealing with. And therefore we're hoping that the resources will follow the legislation and the focus will follow the legislation and the work we've done on already on putting an extra 3000 neighbourhood police on the ground now and focusing on neighbourhood policing means that over the next 2 to 3 years, we're trying to increase the number of forward facing neighbourhood police officers on the ground. Nobody expects that there's not going to be a challenge in all of this, but the purpose of this bill is to give legislative framework to government manifesto commitments.

I think it meets a number of really important objectives. There was there will be debate between members. There will be differences. There will be votes. There will be a not a meeting of minds on certain issues. But I'm hopeful that when this process is over, this bill will pass, it will be put into effect, and members of this House and the House of Commons will hold the Home Office to account for making sure that we reduce crime, increase confidence in policing and make sure that there are fewer victims in the future.

And I commend the Bill and beg to move

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it to the House tonight. My Lords, the. Question is that this Bill be now.

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this Bill be now. Read a second time, as many of that opinion will say, content the country not content. The contents country not content. The contents have it. Well, I'd better move the commitment motion starting in my commitment motion starting in my name on the Order Paper. The question is the motion be agreed as many of that opinion will say content the contrary not content. The contents have it. My Lords, I beg to move the House to now
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None Portrait Introduction(s): Lord Stockwood and Baroness Lloyd of Effra
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18:44
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None Portrait Introduction(s): Lord Stockwood and Baroness Lloyd of Effra
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18:44
10:31
This debate has concluded
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