Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Tuesday 29th April 2025 Commons Chamber

The carers investigation is ongoing. It is not set to report until later this summer, yet the Government are rushing ahead with the proposals in the Bill. I suggest to colleagues that they do not back these proposals until we hear that investigation’s findings and see what lessons can be learned.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

I rise to speak in support of amendments 10, 11 and 12, which stand in my name. I would like to start, though, by placing on record my thanks to the Minister for Transformation, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western), including for his willingness to engage in a discussion on the terms of this Bill. It has been extremely helpful, so I wanted to place that on record.

I also make it clear that my amendments do not in any way seek to undo or frustrate the Government’s legitimate aim of recovering public money from fraudsters and criminals. We absolutely need to do that to ensure that criminal behaviour does not undermine the benefits, legitimacy or standing of our welfare system. The Bill rightly seeks to tackle organised crime and online fraud, but worryingly it also ushers in dangerous new powers compelling banks to trawl through financial information.

[Jon Trickett (Normanton and Hemsworth) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, and I support his amendments. The fact is that millions of innocent people whose behaviour has attracted no suspicion at all will be subject to intrusion into their bank accounts. Is it not odd that there is also access to bank accounts for the £40 billion of tax unpaid by tax avoiders, but that power is rarely used? In the last year for which I have seen figures, 300,000 people were suspected of tax avoidance, but only 1,000 had their banks investigated. Is it not the case that this legislation appears to treat wealthy tax avoiders differently from the poor?

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. It is the very poorest in our society who will be most affected by this legislation. Banks will be able to trawl through financial information even when there is no suspicion of wrongdoing—that is the key point in this debate. The very poorest, including disabled people on PIP, older people on pension credit, carers and those on universal credit, will effectively have fewer rights to privacy than everyone else. I am also deeply concerned about the slippery slope of compelling banks to act as an arm of the state.

[Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) (Ind)]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member for tabling his amendments. We have the finest legal system in the world, and one of its principles is the presumption of innocence. As drafted, the Bill undermines that fundamental principle, which will raise stress and anxiety and undermine vulnerable people in our society. Does the hon. Member agree that that is the current position with the Bill?

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

Yes, and I am going to address that point shortly.

It is not the purpose of banks to act as an arm of the state, and compelling them to do so sets a very dangerous precedent that we in this House need to be aware of. We also know that organised crime groups, which are responsible for more than £7 billion of large-scale fraud, will evade detection by spreading funds across multiple accounts, beyond the reach of the algorithmic scanning that will be used to flag overpayments. It will be welfare recipients who are caught up in the net of bank surveillance, regardless of whether they are suspected of fraudulent activity.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his eminently reasonable and common-sense approach to this debate and on amendment 11. Does it seem to him, as it seems to me, that this legislation takes place in a wider context? Along with the proposed tightening of eligibility for personal independence payment, it moves us towards a hostile environment for benefit claimants, particularly disabled benefit claimants. We will end up treating them as suspects automatically. Does he agree that it was right for us to oppose this measure when the Conservatives wanted to do it? I tabled an early-day motion, signed by nearly 50 MPs, to that effect. We have to oppose this measure now. The best way to resolve it is by the Government accepting his eminently reasonable—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. That was a very long intervention. Perhaps we would be better off going back to Neil Duncan-Jordan.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I will cover the connection between this piece of legislation and the Green Paper shortly.

[Neil Coyle]

Will the outcome for the individual disabled people my hon. Friend is concerned about—the vast majority of whom commit no fraud—be any different if these measures are implemented? They will not be affected, because they are not committing any crime.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

As I have tried to explain, the Bill introduces fundamental changes to the nature of our welfare system and its use.

[David Davis]

I am a signatory to amendment 11. In answer to the point that has just been made to the hon. Gentleman, if the banks use algorithms, they will have an error rate of at least 1%. That means 10,000 or more innocent people will be dragged through the system by this proposal.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

The right hon. Member brings me to my next point, which is the risk of a Horizon-style scandal on a massive scale, given the sheer volume of accounts that will be scanned. That is glaringly obvious. These new powers also strip those who receive state support of that fundamental principle of British law, the presumption of innocence, as the hon. Member for Birmingham Perry Barr (Ayoub Khan) said earlier.

Amendment 11 would ensure that the Government can tackle fraudsters, but would limit the use of an eligibility verification notice to cases where a welfare recipient is suspected of wrongdoing and not merely of error. That proportionate and necessary safeguard would prevent the corruption of our welfare system, which will turn it from a safety net—meant to offer dignity and support to those in need—into a punitive system, where accessing help comes at the cost of someone’s privacy and civil liberties.

The Bill grants the Department draconian powers to apply to a court to have people stripped of their driving licence if they have an outstanding debt, whether for overpayment, fraud or error. Amendments 10 and 12 would remove that power from the Bill. There are fairer and more effective ways to enforce the law. Analysis of the Bill has shown that where assessment deems that a financial deduction would cause hardship, the debtor can face losing their licence. That is not justice in my view, but a penalty for being poor.

I have heard the claims that this measure will be a last resort when the debtor has failed to engage over a period, but that overlooks the fact that non-engagement can be a symptom of hardship rather than wrongdoing. Many welfare recipients, including those with mental health conditions and caring responsibilities, find it difficult to navigate the complex bureaucracy of our social security system, and may be unfairly deemed not to have engaged with the DWP.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is important and necessary to have better legislation to look after people. I doubt that anyone in the Chamber has not been confronted by a constituent who has made an inadvertent mistake. Given the complexity of the paperwork and the reams of questions, it is beyond the ability of most people to respond. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern, and that of many others, that if the system continues to be so complicated, it will inadvertently drive people into a position for which they are not responsible?

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

I agree. I think that the complexity of our system lends itself to errors on the part of individuals who find it extremely difficult to navigate. In Committee, several witnesses explained that people avoid repayment for a variety of reasons, including not knowing where to get help, simply being overwhelmed by the whole process, or facing multiple debts. I hope that the Minister will provide further reassurance on that specific point relating to amendments 10 and 12.

All these challenges will only be made worse if the Government proceed with the planned cuts in disability benefits outlined in the recent Green Paper, which will affect more than 3 million families. The last Government stripped our welfare state to the bone during 14 years of deep cuts—disabled people are already far more likely to be in destitution and to rely on food banks—but spying on millions of people or piling cuts on to a failed system will not repair our welfare model. The Government must pause for thought, meet representatives of disability organisations, and build a fairer system with their consent and confidence. Our welfare state needs to provide support for those who need it, and the change that we promised as a Government must lead to a more compassionate and caring society—one that enables rather than penalises. These are the values that make us different from the last Government, and we should not forget that.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Welfare Reform

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

Having chaired Feeding Leicester for years—unfortunately, I had to give it up when I got this job—I know only too well the issues that people face right across my city and my hon. Friend’s constituency. Our objective is to get those who can work into good work, because that is the sustainable way to tackle poverty and inequality in this country. We are also committed to developing a bold, cross-Government child poverty strategy, which we hope to publish shortly.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

Being healthy is shaped by the world around us, from the homes we live in to the air we breathe and the money in our pockets. Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a moral case for tackling the social determinants of ill health and the causes of poverty, rather than cutting the benefits of the most vulnerable people in our society?

[Liz Kendall]

I have worked in health, and one of my first jobs involved tackling health inequalities when I worked at the King’s Fund charity. We are looking at building not only more homes, but more decent homes. We want people not just to get jobs, but to get good jobs. We are looking at raising the income of the poorest people with our new fair repayment rate, which gives an average of £420 a year extra to the 1.2 million poorest families. There is much more that we can do but, right across Government, our purpose is to tackle poverty and inequality by getting more people into good jobs. That is the Labour way.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

We have a significant reform plan to make sure that we tailor jobcentre support towards the needs of employers, because there is still a significant number of vacancies out there that young people should be making the most of to start their career and progress in life. That is why we have a new employer strategy, so that the Department for Work and Pensions can serve businesses properly.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

Disabled people often face additional barriers when trying to get back into work. Does the Minister acknowledge that rather than freezing or cutting their benefits, we will need to invest in those people to help them back into work and to sustain them there?

[Alison McGovern]

Yes, I do agree. We see potential in every single person in the country, and many of those who have been written off and left on the scrapheap deserve a much better pathway back into work.

Social Security Benefits

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Tuesday 4th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)]

It is a real honour to participate in this debate. I may not be as illustrious as previous contributors, but I will try my best to make whatever small impact I can. I start by commenting on a point made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger) about believing in people and wanting the best for them. I wholeheartedly agree with that—we want the best for people and for them to be the best that they can—but simply believing is not enough. Simply believing that my children will achieve great grades at school without sending them to school or giving them the facilities and the tools is not enough. My team are in the relegation zone, and simply wanting them not to be relegated by belief will not be enough without investment in that football team. When we have had under-investment, especially in the mental health sector, we need more than just belief to achieve and to alleviate those problems. The semantics that we use specifically around our GPs, when we are sometimes questioning their credibility when they sign people off, are rather damaging.

I welcome the increase in pensions announced by the Secretary of State, but at this moment in time, as colleagues have mentioned, 1.9 million pensioners in the UK are living in relative poverty. Pensioners are missing meals, having to shelter in libraries and are depressed due to the Government’s cuts to the winter fuel payment. Research conducted by Unite the union has shown that more than two thirds of its retired members are having to turn down their heating. A third are taking fewer baths and showers, and 16% have cut back on hot meals due to the increased costs of trying to stay warm. Heating or eating is a reality for many people; they are not just words that we utter in this Chamber.

In addition, more than 63% of people have said that they have felt more cold, more often and 17% are reporting that the cut has resulted in their becoming ill or their symptoms becoming worse. That is burdening our NHS, which is already overstretched. We must find a way, if possible, to release the statistics for excessive deaths caused by the cold weather.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

You are making a very powerful case. Would you agree with me that—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

Order. I am sure the hon. Member is not intervening on me, so the word “you” is not appropriate. Interventions should be brief.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. Does the hon. Member agree that just as the Government are addressing child poverty by setting up a child poverty taskforce, they should set up a pensioner poverty taskforce for pensioner poverty?

[Shockat Adam]

I could not agree more; that would be vital for pensioners. Ever since I was elected, emails from pensioners on that issue have been in the top three issues—it is a real issue. If alongside increasing pensions we could reverse the cuts to the winter fuel payment, that would save lives.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

On that one, I certainly will agree. Our work coaches are absolutely brilliant, and they are leading the way in changing jobcentres.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

2. What steps she is taking to increase take-up of pension credit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)]

In recent months, the Department has run the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, across TV, radio and online. Some 150,000 pension credit claims were made in the 16 weeks following the winter fuel payment announcement, and the campaign continues. This week, new work to invite all pensioners newly receiving housing benefit to claim pension credit will begin.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

I thank the Minister. The latest figures show that at least 800,000 pensioners are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it, which means they have now also lost out on the winter fuel payment that they previously would have enjoyed. Does the Minister think that means-testing is working?

Women’s Changed State Pension Age: Compensation

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Torsten Bell]

I think I should make some progress and give way later. I want to get on to the bit that most Members might not agree with, but at least will explain what we are doing, because we do not agree with the ombudsman’s approach to injustice or indeed to remedy. The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) and the hon. Member for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey) rightly noted that is unusual, and it should be unusual. However it is also not unprecedented.

The decision not to introduce a compensation scheme was difficult and complex. The ombudsman assumed, despite evidence to the contrary, that sending letters earlier would have fundamentally changed what women knew and how they acted. However research from 2014 shows that only one in four people who are sent unsolicited letters actually remembers receiving and reading them. The ombudsman does not address this evidence.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he confirm whether the Government’s decision and their claim that only 10% of women affected were unaware of the state pension change is based on a survey from 2006 involving just 210 respondents?

[Torsten Bell]

If my hon. Friend will allow me to make some progress, I will come to exactly that point shortly.

There was considerable awareness that the state pension age was increasing. I think everyone agrees on that even if they do not agree about the research itself. The research used by the ombudsman, from 2004, shows that 73% of people then aged 45 to 54 were aware that the state pension age was going up. Further research shows that, by 2006—when the ombudsman finds that the direct mailing should have begun—90% of women aged 45 to 54 were aware that the state pension age was increasing. We therefore cannot accept that, in the vast majority of cases—and I appreciate it is in the vast majority of cases—sending letters earlier would have affected whether women knew their state pension age was rising or increased their opportunities to make an informed decision. It would not be reasonable—

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

The Chancellor launched a landmark pensions review in July, which I am leading. It has two objectives: to boost returns for future pensioners, so that when they save into private pensions, they get better returns, the likes of which we see in Australia and Canada; and to boost investment in the UK economy.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

The poorest pensioners in our society are those who are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it, and those who are just a few pounds above the threshold and miss out on passported support. Means-testing, by its very nature, is simply not the best way to get help to those who need it most, so will the Minister reconsider the recent decision to means-test the winter fuel allowance?

[Emma Reynolds]

We will not reconsider that decision, because as a result of the £22 billion black hole that we inherited from the Conservative party, we have had to take tough decisions in a very tight fiscal environment. However, my hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to remind people that they have until Saturday to make a pension credit claim, which can be backdated and will passport them to winter fuel payments and other related benefits.

Work and Pensions

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Written Corrections

The following extracts are from the Westminster Hall debate on Winter Fuel Payment on 10 September 2024.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan]

Does the Minister agree that the problem is that wherever we draw the line, there will always be those just above who end up being poorer because they do not gain the benefit and do not get the passported access that gaining the benefit gives? Those individuals end up being worse off than the people who do claim. That is one of the problems with the means-tested system.

[Emma Reynolds]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. For those just above the threshold, we have extended the household support fund. I urge hon. Members to work with me, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Deputy Prime Minister, who have written to local authorities to encourage them to ensure that those just above the threshold who are struggling get the support they need with bills.

[Official Report, 10 September 2024; Vol. 753, c. 243WH.]

Written correction submitted by the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wycombe (Emma Reynolds):

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

This is a decision that we neither wanted nor expected to make, but when we came into office there was a £22 billion black hole in the public finances. There are mitigations in place. We have extended the household support fund and the hon. Gentleman’s council will receive an extra £3.9 million. We are increasing the state pension. Through the triple lock, the state pension will increase by £1,700 in this Parliament. We will also deliver the warm home discount scheme, and I hope he will join me in making sure that every pensioner who is eligible for pension credit receives it, which will passport them to the winter fuel payment.

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

We know that 2 million older people currently live in poverty in this country, with millions more with incomes just above the poverty level. Does the Minister agree that the Government should set up a pensioner taskforce to look at how pensioner poverty can be tackled once and for all?

Social Security

Neil Duncan-Jordan Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the chance to speak in this important debate. I felt compelled to do so because for nearly 20 years I was an active campaigner in the pensioner movement. I want to make it clear that the financial mess inherited by the Government is a result of 14 years of austerity and financial mismanagement, and I reject any suggestion that public sector workers are benefiting at the expense of pensioners. That is well known to be a crude attempt to divide working people, and we should reject it as such.

In the short time that I have, I want to make the case for universalism as the cornerstone of our welfare state. We know from the latest figures that 880,000 older people are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it. Means-testing is supposed to target help at those who need it most, but those people do not claim it. For decades, successive Governments have talked about needing to improve take-up, but even in the best year the take-up rate was 67%. Of course, some people do not claim it because they are unaware of what they are entitled to, but most are wary about having to answer more than 230 questions about their circumstances, and many charities such as Citizens Advice in my constituency do not have the capacity to help people fill the forms in because of cuts to funding over the years of austerity. We should also recognise that there is still a stigma attached to having to declare that you are struggling, and concepts around the deserving poor are as old as this building. I thought that in the 21st century we would be hoping for something better.

The key question with any means-tested-system is: where do we draw the line? By its very nature, the biggest losers will be those just above the cut-off point. In my constituency, around 19,000 people will miss out. The UK has long-standing problems such as poor housing that is difficult to keep warm, one of the lowest pensions in Europe, rising energy costs, and annual cold-related winter deaths among older people—I could go on, but I am running out of time. I urge the Government to think seriously about delaying this proposal and, in its place, putting forward a pensioner taskforce to look at how we can tackle pensioner poverty in the UK.