Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Tuesday 18th March 2025

(began 7 months, 2 weeks ago)

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14:37

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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First question. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the order paper.

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The Soft Drinks Industry Levy by operating the levy as was announced in the budget we will ensure it in the budget we will ensure it remains fit for purpose and drives further restrictions. The voluntary program has delivered meaningful change on what learning what more is change on what learning what more is possible. Through promotion and advertising restrictions has shown promising results and will continue

14:37

Lord Rennard (Liberal Democrat)

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promising results and will continue this momentum to create a healthier generation.

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The level has reduced considerably the number of children who would otherwise have been who would otherwise have been admitted to hospital for dental extractions. Two thirds of the public support and expansion of the public support and expansion of the principle of this living to other high sugar foods with revenue raised funding children's health programs. funding children's health programs. Will the Minister commit to supporting the recipe for change supporting the recipe for change campaign backed by over 50 health charities and medical colleges? Given that if the proposed sugar and Given that if the proposed sugar and salt levy in the national food strategy was implemented it could avoid over the next 25 years more than 320,000 cases of type II diabetes.

diabetes.

14:38

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I understand the reasons that the Noble Lord raises this, because he, like me, wishes to reduce obesity. What I would say is whilst the Soft Drinks Industry Levy, I think, is showing success, it is much harder, as the Noble Lord will be aware, to apply the same in respect of foods. Simple because of the formulation Simple because of the formulation and the fact that sugar in soft is there and there is no other sugar beforehand, whereas in food there is.

And also it affects the actual formulation. Whilst I understand the pressure to do this and we do continue to do more, it is not quite as straightforward and I know he understands this to draw the direct comparisons. comparisons.

14:39

Lord Rooker (Labour)

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The Minister, the voluntary system of a reduction of salt organised by the Food standards agency before I joined was so successful that the World Health Organisation in 2010 held at international conference in London because it had been so successful on a voluntary basis and this was before Lord Lansley removed nutrition from the Food Standards Agency, so the voluntary system can work in a very substantial way. work in a very substantial way.

14:40

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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My Noble Friend is right, voluntary can indeed work well and certainly in addition to crediting my Noble Friend for his work with the Food Standards Agency I would tell your Lordships house that voluntary reformulation has encouraged sugar production by around 15% in cereals, 13% in yoghurt and 29% in milk-based drinks as well as contributing to a reduction in salt intake and, of course, there is more to be done that can reduce everyday Food & Drink intake and we will continue to work with means necessary and working within all sectors of industry to do just that.

14:40

Baroness Manzoor (Conservative)

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The Noble Lady the Minister will know that sugar has been substituted for glycerol in slush drinks. These rice drinks, particularly for children. And this is having an adverse health impact, particularly on young children. And a number are due to the recent press announcements they have been admitted to hospital, so can my Noble Lady the Minister say what the Government are doing to educate parents and, indeed, the Government are doing to address this issue.

14:41

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Thanked the Noble Lady for raising this very important point and I can say that the Food Standards Agency is considering the findings of the review to which the Noble Lady refers to in the media. They are looking at it very carefully. In the meantime, what I would say yes the advice is to strongly encourage parents to follow the advice that slushy drinks should not be given to children under four years old. And retailers are also advised to make adults fully aware of this guidance if seeking to buy them for children.

And in addition whilst the symptoms of intake are usually mild, it is important that parents are aware of the risks, particularly at high levels of consumption. I thank the Noble Lady for shining a light on this matter.

14:42

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

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Research by the first steps nutrition trust shows that parents believe that baby foods are strongly regulated. But in fact there is no legal threshold for the amount of sugar in baby foods in the UK, only a threshold for the amount of added sugar, and so if you add a large quantity of concentrated fruit juice you end up with baby foods that have implicit labels on them suggesting healthy but contain more sugar than Coca-Cola does. And we have a situation where UK two to five- year-olds, 61% of their energy comes from processed foods.

Is the Government going to look to get significant important regulation for baby foods? baby foods?

14:43

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Again, I understand the point that the Noble Lady raises and this is one of the areas that we are looking at also the Noble Lady also raised about ultra processed foods and as she may be aware the scientific committee on nutrition has reviewed evidence and the state of the further research is needed is to whether ultra processed foods are unhealthy due to processing or due to an unhealthy nutrient content because we have discovered that we have to separate the two and that will also assist the point that she raises about dudes.

14:43

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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While sugar taxes and levies are examples of top solutions to tackle obesity, as the Noble Lady the Minister about the grassroots position at the Noble Lady will not of that civil society projects that work in the communities to encourage healthier lifestyles and helping them to grant it healthier. Can you tell the Department of how they work with local projects to tackle obesity and how the best practices protect other communities but also cut the Noble Lady perhaps write to me with some of these projects that all noble Lords can learn a bit more?

14:44

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I would be very pleased to read further to the Noble Lord on this matter and I pay tribute to all of those sector organisations in the communities that work in line with Government direction to reduce obesity. And I would also add that there are many aspects to this, not just what community organisations can do but, for example, about implementing TV and online advertising restrictions for less healthy food in all these ways we reduce obesity. reduce obesity.

14:45

The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)

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According to the BMA, sorry.

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We know well that diet and nutrition are the instructor from which we can access our food that we which we can access our food that we eat, determine our health. These things continue to be unequal. The proportion of household income required to afford the eat well guide is 11% in the least deprived guide is 11% in the least deprived areas and 45% in the most deprived area. What consideration will be area. What consideration will be made in the NHS plan to these wider issues? Including the merits of reformulation policy to improve the

14:45

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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She is right to speak of the additional levels of ill health, and obesity, and a child of 11 in the most deprived areas twice as likely to be obese than those in the least deprived. And I certainly can assure the Right Reverend Prelate that the 10-year plan soon to be made available will take account of any qualities in all the angles and that will include about nutritional food.

14:46

Lord Bird (Crossbench)

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Does the Minister agree that according to the BMA, 50% of people who are suffering from cardiac arrest are actually suffering from food poverty in the first instance.

14:46

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lord for that point. He will know that the DEFRA led food strategy will assist us across government in tackling this area. area.

14:46

Baroness Walmsley (Liberal Democrat)

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... The question about the regulation of foods for babies and toddlers. Is the Minister aware that some of the fruit and vegetable patches marketed for babies from four months onwards despite the advice they shouldn't be weaned until they are six months, actually contain more sugar per hundred hills Banco Golo. -- Per 100 m. Some teeth are being rotted before they even are being rotted before they even emerge from the gums. When will she take action?

14:47

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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She reminds us think that one of the major causes of children having to report to A&E is actually dental decay and that is why I'm glad that we have announced plans for over 700,000 urgent dental appointments. And in addition, supervised toothbrushing, to the specific point that the noble Lady makes, indeed, she is right about the progress that needs to be made and we have recently responded to the House of Lords enquiry into food, diet and obesity, as I know she is well aware and we will have a debate on that on 28 March.

14:48

Oral questions: Role of Great British Railways resolving industrial action

Second Oral Question. Tag I beg leave to ask the question standing leave to ask the question standing

14:48

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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When Great British Railways takes over, it will be responsible for the industrial relations of the railway. industrial relations of the railway. It's establishment depends of course on the passage of the forthcoming Bill through Parliament. In the meantime as each train operation comes into public ownership, the transfer undertakings regulations transfer undertakings regulations will apply and thus the existing negotiating arrangements will apply, but for these operators and of course also Network Rail. There is currently no new industrial action currently no new industrial action on the railway network except for a projected eight week strike on trains and open access, not the responsibility of the government.

responsibility of the government.

14:49

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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We know from what we saw only a few months ago that under the current departmental management, the Department for Transport is very good at giving out public money to outflow from the RMT without securing any improvements in working practices in exchange. Why will this be different when GBR is managing the railways? What additional tools will they have that will secure the improvement in working practices in the railways that all of us want to see?

14:49

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The answer to the noble Lord's point is that it will have coveted long-term management. The reason why, the longest astute in recent history on the national railway network was the dispute which was solved with an additional 2% pay offer last summer. But dispute lost an estimated £850 million worth of revenue over the two years it took place. Significantly, there were no productivity measures on the table, time and the dispute was settled, simply because they had been a long-standing dispute between the employers, the only groups of the train operating companies in the Department, about the share of revenue, the share of the savings that they would get if productivity was applied.

-- several train companies there were no proposals whatsoever able to be implemented. Any sensible employer has in their mind the things that they need to do to make the operation more efficient and negotiating strategy, with employees to achieve it. That was not the case last summer but it will be the case in future.

14:50

Baroness Pidgeon (Liberal Democrat)

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... British Rail will take to minimise disruption to passengers during periods of industrial action and what compensation mechanisms we are putting in place to ensure passengers are not unfairly disadvantaged when their journeys are disrupted?

14:51

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The primary activity that needs to take place is good industrial relations, so that the instances of disputes that affect the train services at much reduced. And one of the features of good industrial relations is a dialogue between the employees that are represented on the employer, which is very much in the mind of the government as it goes forward with Great British Railways. In addition, I have said Railways. In addition, I have said the House for that I want to see managers, at root and train operating company level who can coordinate how the railway behaves and how it serves customers, and by those we will offer a better service generally, and have less industrial action as well.

14:51

Lord Barber of Ainsdale (Labour)

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I welcome the focus that noble Lord Moynihan 's question has put on the issue of negotiating arrangements in the railway sector. This was of course highlighted in the dispute that's been referred to before the general election, where a point was reached where after very intense and prolonged negotiations, a potential settlement had emerged that the negotiators were prepared to support some, from all sides. Unfortunately, that settlement was not approved. Because the government's ministers decided to veto the possibility of that agreement being reached.

Bringing into... Bringing into serious concern the integrity of the whole process. Let me now turn more directly to my question that arises directly to my question that arises from that. It is, of course, absolutely right... May I ask the Minister, does he agree with me that yes, indeed, careful attention needs to be paid to reducing the right to be paid to reducing the right negotiating machinery, as GBR takes shape. But can I also ask him whether he agrees ..., also ask him whether he agrees with me...

That it would be better, at the same time, to reset relations with the workforce and the trade unions. workforce and the trade unions.

14:53

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I agree with my noble friend. But I will add just one point which is that actually, government is responsible for the cost of the railways of the taxpayer and because of that, actually governments need to make clear before the commencement of negotiations the envelope is for the employers to negotiate. It's most unhelpful for government to intervene part only

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all of the way through. Can I remind all noble Lords, it

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Can I remind all noble Lords, it is up to 100 words and no more than two points.

14:54

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

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two points. Further to the question does the noble Lord the Minister recall a speech which he made on April 27 which he made on April 27, 2022, when he was chairman of Network Rail to the railway industry Association and this is what he said. The industry will not back away from its modernisation and cost reduction drive despite the threat of strike action. Those that still remain his policy? -- Does that still remain his policy?

14:54

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I was wondering what I had said

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I was wondering what I had said in April 2022. But actually, when I spoke to the railway industry Association, it was in respect of industrial relations in attack rail industrial relations in attack rail which I had the privilege to check for nine years -- in Network Rail. for nine years -- in Network Rail. What was very successfully concluded in the summer of 2023 was a groundbreaking deal with extensive productivity in a public sector corporation which was not widely corporation which was not widely celebrated by the government at the time because I don't think they really welcomed that progress.

But was very much in line with what I said in April 2022.

14:55

My Lords, I will draw a lot of attention to my register of interest. Would my noble friend degree, government, doesn't it demonstrate the need for an independent guarding mind in the form of GBR that we will hopefully legislate for soon. Doesn't it demonstrate the need to have an organisation that can take the heat organisation that can take the heat and the fire and I will say in some cases the ideological approach to cases the ideological approach to industrial relations? Out of industrial relations and actually set a positive, long-term framework set a positive, long-term framework for workforce relations in that sector?

14:56

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Not only do I completely agree with my noble friend. But the noble Lord Moynihan might recall when he was the deputy of Transport for London and I was the Commissioner that we went to the ends of the earth to keep industrial relations matters away from the political leadership mayor and in the organisation because of the right way of concluding both wages and conditions is for the employer to negotiate with a recognised trade union, of the employees. And political influence really does not much help in those relationships.

14:56

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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Would he give the House and assurance that the weekend roster has been sorted, and particularly these because when particularly the east mainline and that the excuse that there are no crew available will not be used over weekends.

14:56

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So far as the long-distance operator on East Coast Mainline is concerned, I can very happily give that assurance. LNER is top of the performance league, it's very popular with passengers and I hope it remain so. In respect of northern, I just looked at it today, Northern was taken into public ownership because the previous owners had failed in March 2020. It had at that time a dispute about the role of the guard which had orally been running then and is still running -- which had already been running.

Andy still running. It's a very long-standing dispute, it involves Sunday rostering and we are working hard to fix it but I have to say that this government inherited that dispute and it could have been resolved in any of the years from 2020 to 24 if the government at the time had so chosen.

14:57

Baroness Deech (Crossbench)

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Does the noble Lord the

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Minister... Will GBR have a better plan their

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Will GBR have a better plan their Network Rail for fixing the terrible damage done to Oxford by about four years of Network Rail cutting the years of Network Rail cutting the city in two, with damage to the people, businesses and residents? Or

14:58

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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people, businesses and residents? Or will the transition make things even worse and slower?

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I have apologised to the noble

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I have apologised to the noble Baroness for the disruption and the bridge and Oxford and I'm happy to bridge and Oxford and I'm happy to do that. What I'm quite clear about is the disruption caused by the is the disruption caused by the bridge replacement and the associated difficulties of rebuilding the road will be finished

14:58

Oral questions: Discussions with the Scottish Government regarding the extension of new nuclear power generation to Scotland

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before GBR comes into effect. Third Oral Question. I beg leave to ask the question

14:58

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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Scotland's policy on new Nuclear Energy Bill project is a matter for Energy Bill project is a matter for the Scottish government. We remain open to discussions with the Scottish government on nuclear energies future in Scotland. In the meantime, we welcome EDS recent decision to extend Torness's

14:59

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Labour)

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operation to March 20, 2030. I agree we should respect the role of the Scottish Government but role of the Scottish Government but surely now is the time to stop pussyfooting around. When the Scottish Government say, they are quite willing in the future, to accept electricity generated by nuclear in England, and since energy is a reserved area, surely we should look at ways of stopping the blockers in Scotland as well as in the rest of the United Kingdom? Will the rest of the United Kingdom? Will the Minister have a look at it?

14:59

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Well, my noble friend nose that as far as the issue of the powers in relation to nuclear, the issue is that in Scotland, Ashley's infrastructure projects including nuclear-armed broadly reserved. But Scottish ministers have devolved executive confidence for planning decisions, for improving applications to build, operate or modify in lectures degenerating stations with capacity to exceed 50 MW in Scotland. We are not in a position to make a change to that but I would say that if Scotland has a rich nuclear heritage, the work being done at Torness is extremely valuable in providing clean and to Scotland.

And we very much support as I have orally said, EDF's

15:01

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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decision to extend the life of decision to extend the life of The climate change into ministerial group met on 6 March and in an interview that came out yesterday interview that came out yesterday has a section in the communique about what was discussed. Nuclear power is not mentioned in that power is not mentioned in that section. The interministerial group met in October last year and in met in October last year and in March last year and in neither of those nuclear power mentioned is novel of the Minister able to assure us that nuclear power will be on the agenda for the next meeting of the interministerial group?

15:01

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Of course we are always open to discussing nuclear power in that group and in relation to discussions with the Scottish Government, but it is very difficult to make progress in view of the current Scottish government's position on nuclear. I would however say that the leader of the Scottish Labour Party did say in the Scottish Parliament on February 6 that he called on John Swinney the first Minister to drop his ideological opposition to nuclear- power in Scotland.

15:01

Lord Offord of Garvel (Conservative)

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The GMB actually came out and said that Scottish economy is losing over £1 billion because that Scottish Government ideological is different to nuclear. Am I right in saying that last week the noble and saying that last week the noble and learned Lady that there had been a fundamental reset in the relationship between the UK Government and Scottish Government? I asked the novel of the Minister is this the time to demonstrate that reset and can we have a joint of holistic strategy?

15:02

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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There has been a reset and we have been in close discussions on a number of energy matters but the fact is the Scottish Government is opposed to nuclear development. I agree with them and Anna Saba said this also, but the refusal to allow the nuclear power plant is costing Scotland billions in investment and thousands of jobs, which he said would go to England and Wales. I agree with that. The fact is we are dealing with the Scottish Government and the Scottish Government at this stage is not prepared to go for new nuclear.

15:03

Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru)

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We are of a difference of opinion in Scotland as demonstrated by the noble Lords the Minister on the issue of nuclear-power. Will the Minister that in Wales there is widespread wish to see the former nuclear power stations used which brings together the Labour Government in Cardiff and the pride Government in Cardiff and the pride Camry run local Government stop given the strong feeling that this should happen not least in the context of medical isotopes, can the Government give particular attention to bringing investment to those two sides? sides?

15:03

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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The department rejoices in the approach of the Scottish /Welsh Government and indeed the Noble Lord. I do well understand the potential of new nuclear developments in Wales, I think it is a tragedy that the proposals did not go ahead. He knows that in the siting policy which is currently in play they are listed as one of the sites of great potential. We have a new siting of the sea which is more flexible, but undoubtedly the firm

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in particular still has a great attentional. Scotland met 113% of their

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Scotland met 113% of their national power needs last year from national power needs last year from renewable sources alone. This is only set to radically increase, only set to radically increase, providing much-needed power for the rest of the UK. I welcome the expansion of the £150 one scheme is expansion of the £150 one scheme is discount for more homes in Scotland. Does the Minister agree that the SNP Government must take urgent action Government must take urgent action on energy efficiency? And their decision to scrap their own green heating plans for heat pumps in new homes that will leave Scottish citizens who are and colder.

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He is not going to draw me on commenting on what the Scottish Government has done in relation to Government has done in relation to the matters he raised. But is worth the matters he raised. But is worth making the point that in 2023 in 20 making the point that in 2023 in 20 2319.3% of electricity generated in Scotland came from nuclear which I think does indicate that in terms of clean power, nuclear has a huge

15:05

Lord Spellar (Labour)

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clean power, nuclear has a huge amount to offer Scotland, Wales, and

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indeed England. Greatly strengthened in dealing with the Scottish Government, if they themselves would move ahead on they themselves would move ahead on the decision on small Gillette nuclear reactors. When did they

15:05

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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nuclear reactors. When did they accept the come and can we have something slightly more definitive

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than soon? I absolutely agree with minimal front, the importance of the small front, the importance of the small modular reactor program, he knows that Great British Nuclear is going

15:06

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)

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through a selection process at the moment. We expect important announcements to be made in the

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spring. Power devolved is power retained. So, if the Scottish Government are So, if the Scottish Government are not acting in the interest of the United Kingdom with their opposition United Kingdom with their opposition to nuclear power, and also their opposition to oil and gas, that will create great difficulties for the create great difficulties for the rest of the United Kingdom. As the Noble Lord considered taking back Noble Lord considered taking back the power for them to prevent the

15:06

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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the power for them to prevent the appropriate infrastructure needs of the country as a whole?

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Now, I do not think it is the case that we should reopen the devolution settlement and he would not really expect me from the not really expect me from the despatch boxes to say that we should. What I think is clear is that overall new nuclear has a huge role to play in terms of the baseload it can provide the clean baseload it can provide the clean power. The moving towards final investment decision in relation to investment decision in relation to size progress in relation to Hinkley point C, the SMR program, and then the potential of advanced modular reactors, will give us a hugely important foundation for key power for Great Britain as a whole.

15:07

My noble Lords and my noble Ladies, can I ask Mr if he agrees with me and I speak as a former planning minister in the Scottish Government that best way to address this case is not more conflict with the Scottish Government but rather promoting the argument in a positive way for nuclear-power and perhaps working hard so that Anna Saba becomes first Minister in Scotland and we can resolve this problem. and we can resolve this problem.

15:07

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Think that those are very rise -- Matt Wise words from my Noble Friend.

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We do not want nuclear-power but there willing to use electricity from those standards generated. from those standards generated. Shouldn't there be a reflection in the press that the air?

15:08

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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the press that the air? We are looking at the whole issue of zone person but I do not think that we would create go that far. that we would create go that far. What I do think is interesting though is that in relation to the current plant in fact the Scottish Government was in favour of the extension. I think that I agree with the noble Baroness Lady Liddell, we should work on that. We should be constructive in our approach.

We have had very few from discussions about some of the difficult issues in terms of the North Sea. We should old on the restart that the Prime Minister and the first Minister have taken forward and we should also articulate the advantage that nuclear power gives towards countries in written.

15:08

Oral questions: The implications of tariffs imposed by the United States of America on EU goods for trade in Northern Ireland.

Was's? Baroness Ritchie. paper.

15:09

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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I am grateful to my Noble Friend for raising this issue. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom customs territory and internal market. Northern Ireland exporters will not be impacted by these new reported US tariffs any more than exports elsewhere in the UK. We are looking closely at the UK. We are looking closely at the retaliatory tariffs announced by the EU and the impact these may have Northern Ireland businesses. Under the Windsor agreement were US imports into Northern Ireland will not subsequently enter the EU.

Traders can reclaim any additional duties through the duty reimbursements.

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Could I thank my Noble Friend the Minister for her response? Bearing Minister for her response? Bearing in mind the Windsor Framework is devised to protect delicate trading devised to protect delicate trading relationships in Northern Ireland, in the post-Brexit era. Could my Noble Friend that minister outline Noble Friend that minister outline what work has been done with regards to attention terms imposed on EU

15:10

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

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to attention terms imposed on EU goods by the USA which could impact Northern Ireland and what would be the impact on the most honourable markets? And what discussions have taken place with the EU and the American administration regarding mitigations to protect businesses.

15:10

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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I would like to reassure my Noble Friend we will always act in the best interest of all UK businesses which, of course, includes those in Northern Ireland. We continue to look closely at the details of the retaliatory tariffs announced by the EU and any impact these might have on businesses. We are in regular contact with our partners in the US and the EU as well as business in the UK. An important mitigation is already in place under the Windsor agreement where goods do not subsequently enter the EU, the duty reimbursements scheme enables traders to lay claim to AAU applicable duties in full without any commit on total claims.

The customs duty waiver scheme also allows duties to be waived entirely subject to an overall limit.

15:11

Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)

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Very meant that the issues raised by the Noble Lady are seen by Northern Ireland businesses as raising huge complexities, will diminish consider the optical step of issuing a weekly bulletin in Northern Ireland so that tariffs and other regulations appear to business boardgame. boardgame.

15:11

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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I would say to the Noble Lord that the comprehensive guidance is available on golf.uk and businesses can contact HMRC for more information about the reimbursement schemes. But I would take his comment back and be more general about how we can improve those communications.

15:12

Lord Dodds of Duncairn (Democratic Unionist Party)

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At the heart of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland is forced to impose her on US imports in a situation where the rest of the UK may not, and that is without any reference to the UK Government, this Parliament, the Northern Ireland Government, or the Northern Ireland legislature. So, that colonial setup has to be rectified. What in the absence of a fundamental rectification of the fundamental problem, that minister refers to the tariff reimbursement scheme. The head of Manufacturing Northern Ireland said to the financial Times yesterday that scheme was nonsense, full of red tape and few companies have been able to successfully navigate it.

Does the Government no navigate it. Does the Government no better or does he?

15:12

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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I would say to the Noble Lord that the duty reimbursements scheme is an established scheme the businesses have been using to make successful claims since 30 June, 2023. And as I have said there is comprehensive guidance available on golf.uk and businesses can contact HMRC if they need more information to support their claims. to support their claims.

15:13

Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-affiliated)

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I refer to my interest as Chair of that trade UK in the safeguarding union document is in paragraph 47 that the United Kingdom is not just a political union but an economic union. Given that is the case and bearing in mind what has already been set by other noble Lords, how can we deal with economic problems of tariffs either coming from the European Union or the United States of America? How do we make it simpler? The Noble Lady says it is an established scheme but it has been in place for less than two years and has not had to be really activated until the tariffs have come to for wishing muscle we need to find a way to make it easier for companies and deal with it in a proactive way.

proactive way.

15:14

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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I would say to the Noble Lord that for the Noble Lady, sorry, that of course all of this is predicated on the Windsor Framework and that removes unnecessary checks, payment checks on the paperwork and duties and fixes a lot of blooms for medicines applying across the whole of the UK. And also enables important democratic scrutiny, so there are those protections in place and we are continuing to look at the operation of the Windsor Framework as we go forward.

as we go forward.

15:14

Lord Caine (Conservative)

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Last week in that St Patrick's elevations in Washington the Northern Ireland secretary restated the government's commitment to itching a trade agreement with the United States which, of course, we strongly welcomed. At the weekend, however, the former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi threatened Congress would veto any trade deal that does not respect the 1998 Belfast agreement. Given that the 1998 agreement pulls Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom and the fact that the next state is the largest market for Northern Ireland goods at out of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirmed that it is the government's intention that any US trade agreement will benefit Northern Ireland in executive the same way and on the same terms as all other parts of our country? all other parts of our country?

15:15

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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We are, as the noble Lords will know, we are working to develop a relationship, to find a new relationship with the US. And to build on that strong economic relationship that we have with them which is fair, balanced, and reciprocal, and that will have to take into account the interest with Northern Ireland as well.

15:15

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

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Part of the UK economy are so integrated with that of the European single market already. And that the tariffs from the Trump administration are economic coercion and not based on any trade policy. Can I ask the Minister to questions. The first is have we triggered the enhanced coordination mechanism within the Windsor Framework process to ensure that any retaliatory action is coordinated across the European Union and the United Kingdom. And secondly, considering that this is economic coercion, and it is illegal under WTO rules, what are the instructions that the Ministers have given to our representative to complain against representative to complain against

15:16

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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It is of course disappointing that the US has imposed global trade tariffs. And we are determined to support US business, UK businesses across the sector. The government is working with the affected businesses. I think noble Lords will also no standing up industry, standing up for industry means finding solutions to global challenges and that means working closely and pragmatically with the US to press the case for the UK business interests. business interests.

15:17

Lord Empey (Ulster Unionist Party)

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Next year, 2026, is that review of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the United Kingdom. I have to say to the noble Baroness that if she thinks things are working smoothly and are easy for businesses to operate she's under misapprehension. Could you tell the House if the government has started work on what the review should be, dealing with, and have we got policy and what consultation will the government be undertaking as they prepare the negotiating position?

15:17

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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The government is seeking to strengthen and we said the relationship between the EU and that UK. Taking forward our manifesto commitments on that relationship will carry tangible benefits for businesses in Northern Ireland and the UK. The government is committed to abiding by commitments in International Agreements Committee including working that Windsor Framework in good faith and that will involve or include the new negotiations going forward.

15:18

Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (Ulster Unionist Party)

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I had the Minister say there will be reset of relationships between the UK and the EU -- I hear. That may mean those additional tariffs or exit tariffs impact more on the UK as a whole, if that happens. At some stage UK Government might have to take a choice between being closer to the USA or closer to the EU. Which is it?

15:18

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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We will always ensure that we protect the interests of all UK businesses including those in Northern Ireland.

15:18

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Doesn't present position demonstrate that Britain has been left behind in the negotiations between all the different partners in America and in Europe, and this is a reflection of our decision to leave Europe and to leave ourselves exposed to these measures. exposed to these measures.

15:19

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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My noble friend is right that we

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need to strengthen and reset our relationship with the EU and that is exactly what we are attempting to do nowt. That concludes Oral Questions for today. We'll have a short state to allow any members who wish to leave

15:20

Private Notice Question: Durability of the ceasefire in Gaza

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My Lords, private My Lords, private notice My Lords, private notice question

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of the ceasefire in Gaza. The Lord Bishop of Gloucester. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order

15:20

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Paper.

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My Lords, our position is clear. We do not want to see a return to We do not want to see a return to fighting. The reported casualties resulted from these drugs are resulted from these drugs are appalling. Our priority is urging all parties to return urgently to all parties to return urgently to dialogue and to ensure the ceasefire agreement is implemented in full and becomes permanent. The fighting must stop. Hostages must be released. And civilians must be protected, including those who have returned home during the ceasefire.

15:21

The Lord Bishop of Gloucester (Bishops)

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I'm grateful to the noble Minister for that reply. We on these benches find the recent air strikes on Gaza deeply shocking and apparent, as we do the continued cruel holding of hostages. Following the Foreign Secretary pulls my the Foreign Secretary pulls my comments yesterday that Israel was breaking international law by cutting aid to Gaza, what steps are being taken to ensure that the government of Israel abides by its its international obligations, and what considerations have been given to introducing targeted sanctions should the government of Israel persist with this culture of impunity?

15:22

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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The Foreign Secretary and the governments position remains that Israel's action in Gaza are to clear risk of reaching international humanitarian law. Our international monetary law assessments have raised concerns about possible breaches of IHL in the areas of humanitarian access and the treatment of detainees and we took decisive action from 2 September suspending all licences for the idea. We have also been clear that the government is not an international cult and therefore we cannot operate I arbitrate on whether or not Israel has breached international law.

Can I be absolutely clear to the Right Reverend Prelate, humanitarian aid should never be used as a political tool. Israel must restart the flow of aid immediately. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have both made it clear that we are appalled by Israel blocking aid when it is needed at greater volume and speed than ever before. Blocking goods and supplies and power entering Gaza risks reaching international humanitarian law and should not be happening. We are doing everything we can to alleviate the situation.

It's disappointing to hear reports that the Rafa crossing has now closed to medical evacuations. This is a desperate situation and we urge all parties to return to the table.

15:23

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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I declare my interest...

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I declare my interest...

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As we speak the APPG for UK Israel is launching 7 October parliamentary commission report, parliamentary commission report, shared by the noble Lord Roberts of Belgrade. That systematically documents the appalling abuses of that day, the rapes, these relations that day, the rapes, these relations and the slaughter. In the midst of this terrible situation there is one this terrible situation there is one in controversial comment on -- incontrovertible truism, Hamas is holding dozens of those hostages holding dozens of those hostages that it abducted on that day and have been in captivity for well over a year.

Does the noble Lord the Minister agree with the entire international community should be united in calling for the immediate release of those hostages and that will help to bring this terrible situation to an end.

15:24

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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I do believe the international community is united and I thank Qatar, Egypt and the US for their support in bringing those individuals that have been released back to their families. Our thoughts are very much with those still waiting to be reunited with their loved ones, including the families of the UK hostage. The simple fact of the matter is that the release of the hostages is a vital component of the ceasefire deal and it's the ceasefire deal that actually we have to be focused on, to ensure that the hostages are released and that there is peace back in Gaza and we get humanitarian aid in there, which is so essential.

15:25

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

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The unacceptable civilian casualties in addition to withholding life-sustaining aid, and the comments by the hostage of missing families Forum representing the families who said that they were shocked by the strikes, and I quote "the deliberate destruction of the process to return our loved ones". Now it looks a safe there is little chance that there will be the next stage of the ceasefire that it looks as though there will be little chance. Is this not now the time to act the precautionary interval and for there to be target actions against the extremist members of the Israeli government who have rejoined the camp and and must be having some element of impunity from the United States? We must act bilaterally in this country and use the precautionary principle.

15:26

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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I think the noble Lord knows very clearly my position. All our efforts, our diplomatically engaged with both neighbouring countries, the US and all others, to ensure that the ceasefire does... The parties of the ceasefire returned to the table, and implement the commitments they made. That's essential. That's how we will see the release of the hostages and C8 get back into Gaza. That's our priority, absolutely. I know the noble Lord is fully aware, I'm not going to, don any possible future sanctions or actions.

We do not do that. But I do think it is important that we focus diplomatically on ensuring a return to the ceasefire agreement and that then at least we agreement and that then at least we

15:27

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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Does the Minister agree the tragedy of Gaza is going to continue until Hamas is removed from power? And could he explain what he wants to say on the subject? Somebody's son who was murdered by Hamas on seventh October when he tended to shield his fiancee from a grenade.

15:27

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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As I have repeatedly said to the noble Lord in this chamber, we are absolutely committed to building a future that the Palestinian Authority, is the authority for all occupied territories, and that we want to see them defended and protected to do that job. There is no role for Hamas in the future of Gaza.

15:27

Lord Grocott (Labour)

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Isn't the overwhelming national reaction to the news that we have to today is to say how much longer must this slaughter continue? And if we add the 400 deaths that have been reported so far, to the 48,000 that are already taken place, including 11,000 children, and several hundred children under the age of 12 months presumably are not members of Hamas, if this doesn't include a breach, serious breaches of international humanitarian law, then it's time that someone started rewriting the humanitarian law logbook.

15:28

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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I think my noble friend knows that we have considered the risk of breaching humanitarian law and we have taken action to mitigate that risk. I have also wanted to stress how we have worked with ALACE, on 5 March, together with front and Germany expressed a deep concern that Israel's report on aid to Gaza and urged it to lift the sections. The Foreign Secretary also made it clear to the Israeli Foreign Minister during their call on fifth March.

And of course on 28 January the Minister then Minister for Development announced a further £17 million a further aid in terms of healthcare. The situation is no doubt absolutely dire. We cannot see the return to the violence we have seen before. We want a ceasefire to hold. We want to see the return of hostages. And we are doing

15:30

Baroness Morris of Bolton (Conservative)

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everything we can with our allies to everything we can with our allies to Milos, given the horrifying events, first of all a declared interest set out in the register. Given the horrifying events of the last 24 horrifying events of the last 24 hours, an inescapable irony in uttering the words durability and ceasefire in Gaza, in the same breath. Noble Lord the Minister talked about diplomatic efforts and can I ask him, what the government can I ask him, what the government is specifically doing to engage our allies across the Arab world, especially Saudi Arabia, in helping to bring this nightmare to an end? to bring this nightmare to an end?

15:30

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Let me reassure the noble Lady that we are doing precisely that. We are working with all our allies. I think one of the things that is very clear, and certainly if anyone was listening to the today programme this morning, you will have heard of Israeli former ambassadors expressing deep concern that these actions will impact on the possibility of a ships with Arab countries. -- Of relationships with Arab countries. Saw some positive signs of refreshments with Saudi Arabia, and we should focus much more on ensuring that unity of diplomatic efforts to get the ceasefire back on course and further, longer peace talks so that we can unite both defend Israel but we can unite both defend Israel but we can unite both defend Israel but

15:31

Lord Sahota (Labour)

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Last year the EU representative for the Middle East said on TV, and I quote, before 7 October, Gazza was an open prison and after seventh of October, it became an open graveyard. What does our noble graveyard. What does our noble minister make of that statement?

15:31

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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I think my Noble Friend highlights many comments. I think we have heard on previous occasions in this chamber the situation in Gaza has been horrific, but there is no doubt the events that caused those hostages being taken were also horrific. And also we have got to think about the levels of sexual violence for those hostages. There is no escaping the fact that actually we have to focus on the future. We have to ensure that we get proper aid and support into the occupied territories in Gaza and we actually have to focus on a much longer-term solution which this ceasefire agreement gave.

There were stages. We knew it was not going to be easy, but all of our diplomatic efforts are going to be focused on that. that.

15:32

Baroness Foster of Oxton (Conservative)

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Those who are really guilty of breaching the ceasefire numerous times and continuing to do so are the hummus terrorists and their cohorts, many psychopaths in Gaza. These people are guilty of warcrimes, between reaching the Geneva Convention and many other crimes they have perpetrated on October 7 and since then. So, with the Noble Lord Minister agree with me that the only solution here is to release these hostages? Are still 58 of them. Of of them, we believe, are deceased.

Many of the that have been murdered in cold blood, have been tortured, they have been starved, and they are still in underground tunnels, so that school somewhere in resolving this appalling situation? And maybe some way to a solution.

15:33

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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There is no doubt ceasefire agreement provided for exactly that and we have renewed our call to all parties to return urgently to dialogue and to ensure the ceasefire agreement is implemented in full. Most notably, hostage releases and humanitarian scale becomes permanent. As I have said, it is ultimately in everyone's interest for this deal to hold. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we are appalled by his real blocking guide and it is needed in a greater guide and it is needed in a greater volume and spend than ever before.

But I repeat there is a solution. Return to the ceasefire agreement, release the hostages, and let aid into Gaza.

15:34

Lord Turnberg (Labour)

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I am afraid it is the case that hummus is busily rejigging its tunnels and rearming, preparing to attack Israel. Again, it makes it very clear. At the same time, it has 58 or 59 men, women and children held hostage in terrible conditions which we have heard about in the report that we will receive later today. Should we not be pressing Qatar and Egypt to impress on, start it really must come to the table we must have some peace, we must have some resolution.

And it is hummus that is preventing it. Can we not press them to ensure that they will agree to release hostages and cease their aggressive actions?

15:35

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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While, I agree with my Noble Friend that actually I must sound like I am constantly repeating something, but I do think this is with repeating because we had on the table and agreement that provided for the release of hostages and further to be a return to full aid going into Gaza. That is the solution. It backed the table, implement the ceasefire agreement. But I would stress that we are in diplomatic contact with all of our allies in the region.

And certainly urging them to ensure that all sides, particularly hummus, deliver on their commitments in the ceasefire agreement.

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With all of the reservations we have heard about the access of Israel in Gaza in this House by the

15:36

Lord Singh of Wimbledon (Crossbench)

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Israel in Gaza in this House by the Foreign Secretary and in many other parts of the world, why are we still

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supplying arms to Israel? Well I think that Noble Lord

15:36

Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well I think that Noble Lord knows fully well that we took decisive action in terms of arms supplies that may be used in Gaza to the IDF. We follow the international humanitarian deadlines in that respect, so we took decisive action. We found that there was a risk to international humanitarian law being applied. The simple answer from the Noble Lord is we have acted.

15:36

Business of the House

Some instruments previously,

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. With leave of the House I picked

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With leave of the House I picked it moved the motion standing in my name on the order paper. Order.

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The question is that the two motions in the name of Baroness Gustafsson be agreed to on lock. As Gustafsson be agreed to on lock. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. Immigration biometric information et

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Immigration biometric information et cetera Amendment regulations 2025, Lord Hanson of Flint. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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The question. Order.

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Order. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. Report of the nondomestic rating multipliers and nondomestic rating multipliers and

15:38

Legislation: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill - report stage

private schools bill.

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private schools bill. I beg to move that this report be now received. The question is that this report be now received. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. In clause 3

15:38

Baroness Pinnock (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, My Lords, once My Lords, once movement My Lords, once movement has My Lords, once movement has finished I will, it may help the House if we can begin then. I remind the House of my relevant local Government interests and, in particular, that I am a counsellor in Coatbridge. At the outset, I wish to express my thanks to the Noble Lord the Minister and his officials for their time and discussions on the detail of the bill.

I had assurances that those on the measures in the bill are not designed to increase business rates or revenue, though that ignores the consequence of the bill that for RHL retail and hospitality and leisure businesses that COVID relief disappears and the difference is partly funded by those businesses. Importantly, the Minister also confirmed that local Government funding in totality would not be affected, and that, and I quote, as far as is practicable, no individual council would find themselves worse off as a result.

And what is unfortunate is that the Government has been unable to share the basic assessment that must have taken place to provide the assurances given. There is no clarity about the impact on individual properties of these changes. Hence Amendment one and consequential amendments nine, 10, and 17. Which seek to understand the impact of the changes in the NHS. The useful information shared by the office agency sees that 290 NHS hospitals will be caught by the new £500,000 threshold.

Given that the standard multiplier is currently 0.546 in the pound, in other words 54.6p to the pound, the bill enables 54.6p to the pound, the bill enables the multiplier to increase to 0.646 in the pound, 64.6p in the pound for these higher band properties. This will cost hospitals dearly. For example, and I did wonder Noble Lord the Minister that his failure to provide examples, I did the calculations. For example, the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital is a rateable value of 5.9 is a rateable value of £5.9 million.

And its business rates cost will rise from 3.2 million to £3.8 million. An additional burden of £600,000 per year on business rates alone. The John Radcliffe infirmary in Oxford, potentially has a business rates increase from 3.4 million to 4.1 million. Going further north, and in my own county in Yorkshire, the whole Royal infirmary could see its bill rising from 1.8 million to £2.1 million. Now, these are typical figures for hospitals from across the country and I do not believe that it is the Governments intention to reduce the ability of hospitals to drive down waiting lists.

Yet that will be the impact of these changes and the consequent higher charges. Amendment one. Amendment 16 to exclude hospitals from the higher threshold multiplier, to prevent a further burden of taxation falling on the NHS. The Minister will, I am sure, want to comment on the fact that while NHS hospitals will CA huge rise in their rates, about one third of private hospitals have charitable relief and pay only 8%, however charitable relief of 80% of their records.

Now, in his reply, the Noble Lord the Minister will no doubt say that it is not possible to allow exclusions to the government's scheme. Just demonstrates that the whole business rates system is no longer fit for purpose. Because the rate values on which it depends are inevitably higher in cities and urban areas while distribution warehouses benefit invertible combs from being out of town. The whole system is topsy-turvy. The Governments express purpose was to tax those fulfilment warehouses. To tax them more in order to help save our high streets.

They failed to save and this would also clobber our NHS. It will not do. Hospitals must be excluded from the higher

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multiplier. We propose closed three page 3

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We propose closed three page 3 line 26 after the amendment in other

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than the qualifying healthcare. First of all, can I declare my

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First of all, can I declare my interest as a vice president of the Local Government Association? I rise to speak to the amendments in the

15:45

Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)

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to speak to the amendments in the name of the Noble Lady baroness Pinnock which seek to retain the standard multiplier for healthcare amendments. The proposed amendments address the issue of the unintended consequences as we have heard very strongly from the noble Baroness that this bill will have. As mentioned at committee I understand the desire for a reformed business rate system and, indeed, if such a system were proposed, I would be more inclined to support it. Despite the government's manifesto commitment to level the playing field between the High Street and the online giant, this bill does not deliver on that.

I understand that this is only the first step in the government's plans, as I am sure the Noble Lord the Minister will point out. But it is not a step in the out. But it is not a step in the A number of sectors will be negative affected by the changes proposed, including anchor stores which will debate in a short while. Liberal Democrats are seeking to protect our hospitals as we have heard, and our health sector. The government are doing the opposite.

By giving to the NHS with one hand and taking away with another. I hope the Minister will look favourably on these amendments but if the Democrats choose to divide on the issue, we will support them.

15:46

Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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My Lords, these amendments seek to remove healthcare including medical and dental schools. Throughout the passage of this bill the government has explained the importance of taking a sector agnostic approach with regards to the application of the high multiply. This is the fairest approach to ensure that the government can sustainably fund the lower multipliers. At Committee, a set out that of the 16,780 properties act well above the threshold based on the current waiting list, only 350 in the health sector.

Of these two, 290 NHS hospitals and only 30 doctors surgeries and health centres. These numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. This government fully supports the healthcare sector. Our great National Health Service has delivered universal healthcare for nearly 80 years is something the government is extremely proud of. We recognise the NHS needs support and reform to ensure it can continue to deliver work but world-class healthcare to all for the next 80 years and beyond. The noble Baroness, I don't appreciate -- she feels I don't appreciate her appoint but I do.

This will create a sector in which the healthcare can thrive. The impact is limited and much but it does apply. The public sector. The noble Baroness will be aware that phase 2 of the Spending Review is currently underway following the fixing of the spending at the Autumn Budget. As part of setting departmental budgets at the Spending Review the government will consider the full range of priorities and pressures facing departments. This includes considering any impact of the high multiply. I'm sure that the noble Lords here today can appreciate I cannot pre-empt the outcome of the Spending Review but I want to reassure that the impact of the high multiply on the public sector as an active consideration.

The immunity of the Crown from business rates was removed 25 years ago and since then all of the public sector has been in the same footing as business. The government is not going to reverse this position that was intended to drive fairness between public and private sectors and the most efficient use of property in the public sector. For these reasons I cannot accept noble Baroness's amendment and I respectfully ask that you withdraw

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them. I do thank the noble Lord the Minister for his response. Which was

15:49

Baroness Pinnock (Liberal Democrat)

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Minister for his response. Which was I'm afraid much as predicted. I really don't know how I labour minister can say that they are agnostic about our NHS. Agnostic approach, but you cannot be ignored to, surely, about your NHS. -- You cannot be agnostic. He said the sector, we have an agnostic approach to the sector but that includes, therefore, agreeing that our NHS are going to be covered with even higher rate bills than they have now are private hospitals or some of them have the 80% charitable relief.

That is not creating a level playing field which he quoted. So on these benches, we are determined to support our NHS, to enable them to push down waiting lists, given that the noble Lord the Minister is unable to give me any hope that there is going to be a change of

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heart, I beg to leave to test the opinion of the House. Question is that amendment one be

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Question is that amendment one be agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the

15:50

Division

opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". The question will be decided by division. A revised House when voting is open. -- I will advise the House when voting is open. Voting is

15:54

Division - NON-DOMESTIC RATINGS (MULTIPLIERS AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS) BILL: AMDT: 1

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The The question is The question is that The question is that amendment

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The question is that amendment one be agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". The the contrary, "Not content". The contents will go to the right by the throne, the not contents to the left

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The The question The question is The question is that The question is that amendment

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My My Lords, My Lords, they My Lords, they have My Lords, they have voted

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My Lords, they have voted content

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My Lords, they have voted content to hundred and 72, not contents 157.

16:01

The Earl of Lytton (Crossbench)

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That That brings That brings us That brings us onto That brings us onto Amendment That brings us onto Amendment two That brings us onto Amendment two in the name of the Earl of Wilton.

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I first of all wish to declare an interest as this is the first time interest as this is the first time have spoken at this stage of the bill as a chartered surveyor and member of the ratings surveyor member of the ratings surveyor Association and also a member of the student revenues rating Federation, student revenues rating Federation, in fact all three of the bodies referred to in amendment number 32 which is within this group under the name of the Noble Lord.

Now, I name of the Noble Lord. Now, I extend thanks to the Minister for his willingness to engage in yesterday's meeting and I appreciate that very much. And if it is any comfort to him that is at least part of the reason why I felt like I should not actually press these amendments today. Most principally because they go to the heart of the

21:18

NON-DOMESTIC RATING (MULTIPLIERS AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS) BILL: REPORT AMDT: 2 The Earl of Lytton (Crossbench)

philosophy on how rating the financial backlog of rating is dealt financial backlog of rating is dealt with and I felt that would be a very with and I felt that would be a very diffuse target to try and aim at this stage in the bill but may I remind your lordships how we got remind your lordships how we got here before dealing with amendment number two and speaking to amendment number 11. Also my name in this

21:18

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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This debate has concluded

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