Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Monday 20th April 2026

(began 1 hour, 36 minutes ago)

14:36

None

My My Lords. My Lords. I My Lords. I regret My Lords. I regret to My Lords. I regret to inform My Lords. I regret to inform the house of the death of the noble Lord Lord Skidelsky on Wednesday, 15th April. On behalf of the House, I extend our condolences to the noble Lords, family and friends.

14:36

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Lords, I should like to notify the House of the retirement with effect

14:36

Lord Cryer (Labour)

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House of the retirement with effect from 17th April of the noble Lords. Lord Clarke of Hampstead and the

14:37

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Lord Clarke of Hampstead and the Earl of Liverpool, and with effect from 20th April of the noble Lord from 20th April of the noble Lord Lord Cunningham of Felling, pursuant to section one of the House of Lords Reform Act, 2014 on House of Lords Reform Act, 2014 on behalf of the House. I would like to thank the noble Lords for their much valued service to the House. Their first Oral Question Lord Cryer.

14:37

Lord Cryer (Labour)

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I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

14:37

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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My Lord, swimming and water >> My Lord, swimming and water safety are vital life skills, and every child should have the opportunity to learn, to swim and opportunity to learn, to swim and to know how to keep themselves safe around water before they leave primary school. The latest figures indicate that 73% of children can swim 25m by the time they leave primary school, and we're focussed on improving that figure through our forthcoming changes to the curriculum and the support for schools to deliver PE and sport.

14:38

Lord Cryer (Labour)

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I'm grateful to my noble friend, but the. I have a slightly different figure for 11 year olds. different figure for 11 year olds. According to Swim England, only 1 in 411 year olds leaving primary school can swim 25m. Now, that's school can swim 25m. Now, that's not entirely unrelated to the fact that we've lost 500 pools in the last 16 years. That's not a gross figure. That's a net figure. In the last 16 years, 500 pools. So will my noble friend undertake to publish all information and statistics relating to school swimming attainment? Will show also undertake to work with Ministers at the DCMS, amongst others, to drive up the number of pools, so that the number of operating pools at the end of this Parliament is greater than at the beginning of this Parliament will also undertake to work with Swim England, amongst others, in reversing this downward trend and making sure that we have more children able to swim when they finish primary school.

Because the bottom line is this swimming is the one sport which can be the difference between life and death. Yeah.

14:39

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Well, starting with the last first, we're already working with Swim England, amongst others to Swim England, amongst others to improve both the resource and the curriculum when it comes to swimming and water safety. My noble friend is right about the big fall in pools between 2010 and 2026. In fact, I have even a slightly higher figure than 500 at 591 fewer pools since then. And of course, that is a challenge not only for schools but also for local government.

I know it's something that colleagues at DCMS are not only concerned about, but have also included in the additional investment that they are providing for community facilities.

14:40

Baroness Davies of Devonport (Conservative)

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I'd like to thank Lord Cryer for bringing up this subject. Obviously, bringing up this subject. Obviously, you've mentioned the loss of pools. I'd also like to add that 1200 pools are now over 40 years old, pools are now over 40 years old, and that are coming to the end of their of their maintenance life. And we're losing 25 a year at the moment. And that 25 have not been replaced. Obviously, wages are up. Energy bills are now twice what they were before Covid. And those facilities are very high and expensive to maintain.

So the loss of that water space means that children are obviously risking swimming in dangerous places instead of in, say, swimming pools, which is where they should do. I'm honoured. In the 80s, I gave evidence to the select committee that helped to get swimming on the national curriculum, and we're not getting our kids swimming. As mentioned, 25% are not leaving Easter. I went to see a swimming pool at Easter. I went to see a swimming pool where they brought a pool in and they managed to get 150 classes in instead of their normal ten, because it cost £250 to bus their children to the local swimming pool.

Can the government please tell me that they will think outside the box? How we make sure that our children are taught to swim because it's a vital skill, not a luxury?

14:41

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Yeah. not a luxury, which is why it. And water safety is a key part of the national curriculum at key stages one and two. We're also aware that factors including pressures around energy costs and ageing facilities may impact the future provision of sports facilities, including swimming pools. And that's why in June last year, the government committed £400 million to transform sports facilities, including public leisure, across the whole of the UK. Over the next four years.

14:41

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

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I just return back to the data, >> I just return back to the data, in particular the issue around swimming attainment by region and socio economic backgrounds because socio economic backgrounds because I think many in your Lordships House would be fearing that there's a huge disparity. And if there is, what is the plans that His Majesty's Government has to close that gap between the regional variances that we're likely to see if you've got the data will be really useful? If not, could you write to us all? Yeah, yeah.

14:42

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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The noble Lord is right that there is a disparity between ethnic there is a disparity between ethnic groups in particular, and between those who are more and less disadvantaged children, which is why this is a national entitlement through the national curriculum. But clearly, we need to do more to ensure that every child is getting opportunities, like, for example, the £300,000 a year to a consortium led by the Youth Sports Trust to deliver Inclusion 2028, which is a program which upskill teachers to deliver high quality, inclusive PE, school sport and physical activity, including swimming to pupils with SEND Lord Dear.

14:42

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Isn't it the case that these >> Isn't it the case that these pools didn't just disappear, they actually was part of the austerity model that was pursued by the last model that was pursued by the last Tory government? And have they learned that lesson, do you think? Or are they going to pursue similar policies which starve public resources?

14:43

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think my noble friend has put rather more clearly what I has put rather more clearly what I slightly pussyfooted around in drawing a comparison between 2010 and 2026. He's right. Those 591 pools didn't just disappear by virtue of planning. They disappeared because of a failure of the last government to invest not just in swimming, but in local government and in public facilities for activity.

14:43

It's not just a question of >> It's not just a question of young people, although that's terribly important, but a very high proportion of adults in this proportion of adults in this country cannot swim. They may have had opportunities or they may not. But therefore, I would ask the Minister, please, can we also encourage adults, older people, to learn to swim? They're never too old to learn, and they can actually act as guardians to help others who may get in difficulties.

So can we please encourage older people also to learn? Yeah.

14:44

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

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My my ministerial responsibilities don't quite stretch to adults and swimming. However, it is a very fair point and I will certainly, as we've discussed already in in the response to this question, continue working with my ministerial colleagues both in DCMS and in the colleagues both in DCMS and in the Mhclg to ensure that there is provision for both adults as well as children, to be able to engage as children, to be able to engage in sporting activity, including swimming.

14:44

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Swimming is an important part of water. Safety and we welcome the government has included Chris classroom based water safety education in the curriculum. From September. Bystander rescue,

14:44

Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)

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including members of the public safely rescuing a person in distress, remains a weak link in distress, remains a weak link in the chain of survival for drowning. In the review of the PE curriculum, will the Minister consider will the Minister consider including water safety, water safe water rescue such as line throwing, water rescue such as line throwing, using public life saving equipment and participation in life, sport,

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life saving sport? Well, the noble Lord is right that it is already the case that we have in the strengthened Irish

14:45

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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guidance, increased the focus on guidance, increased the focus on water safety and we have the opportunity in the review that we opportunity in the review that we are doing post the curriculum and assessment review to redraught the assessment review to redraught the national PE curriculum. And in doing that, I'm sure that some of doing that, I'm sure that some of the points that the noble Lord made about essential life saving competencies will be borne in mind. My Lords.

14:46

Baroness Barran (Conservative)

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I'm not sure whether I have to declare my interest, but I do try declare my interest, but I do try and swim every day, although sadly not quite as fast as my noble friend, but I keep trying. I wonder if the noble Baroness, the Minister, could just update the House. The Prime Minister made an announcement in June 2025 about school sports partnerships. Could she say what steps the government is taking to ensure that partnerships are happening with the national governing bodies and local clubs in relation to swimming, including for top up classes?

14:46

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Well, well done to the noble Lady. I'm rather more a floater than a swimmer. I think it would be than a swimmer. I think it would be fair to say, but the noble, noble Lady is right that last June, the Prime Minister announced a new national approach to PE and school sport in the PE and School Sport Partnerships network that will bring together. The department and schools, along with national governing bodies and local clubs. We're in the process of procuring a national delivery partner for that, and we expect the national delivery

14:47

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

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Well. My, my noble friend is always clever at turning a question to his

14:47

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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advantage. I will simply say that I absolutely know, as I think he does, the significance that this government places on increased investment in our defence capacity, increasing defence spending pledged since the end of the Cold War, and since the end of the Cold War, and why? I know that this is something being actively considered not only by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for defence, but also the Chancellor.

14:48

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Second Oral Question Baroness Pitkeathley. question. Standing on the on the Order Paper in my name. >> This government is proud of our

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This government is proud of our incredible culture of giving in the UK, and is committed to doing what we can to promote and foster this. we can to promote and foster this. While the calf research shows a fall in overall donations, charitable giving has broadly kept up with inflation over the last decade, and the proportion of those who give is the same as the previous year. Published last week, the government's plan for growing place based philanthropy are placed to give will create strong, enabling conditions to strengthen links between donors and places, build better partnerships and unlock further philanthropy and giving.

14:49

Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)

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For that response. And the roadmap that she mentions is indeed an excellent and most welcome an excellent and most welcome initiative to boost place based philanthropy and much appreciated by the voluntary and community by the voluntary and community sector. But they fall in. The amount donated is of great concern to charities who are under increasing pressure to meet growing demands while their incomes are falling. Could His Majesty's Government consider introducing policies which promote giving both from corporates and individuals? Examples might be simplifying gift aid, encouraging payroll giving or indeed anything which might renew the culture of giving, which has always been so central to life in the United Kingdom.

As my noble friend said, hey.

14:50

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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So I think it's really important that we focus on how we can support an already incredibly generous public, but without playing down the reasons why people might be reluctant to give currently. So we are putting in place measures to tackle the cost of living issues that are affecting people currently. In terms of some of the ways that In terms of some of the ways that my noble friend mentions. HMRC is providing over 2.5 billion of relief through gift aid and higher rate relief, and is reviewing current gift aid, claiming processes to try and help charities gain as much as they can through that route.

I know my noble friend is also interested in payroll giving. Currently, 4000 UK businesses offer this. We are actively supporting ways to encourage more people to do so, and we'll continue to work with the sector to ensure that we get as much funding for them through personal, public and corporate giving.

14:51

According to the Charities Aid Foundation also report, nearly 1 in 3 Non-donors indicated they were 3 Non-donors indicated they were not engaged or interested in charities, which was an even higher figure for young people. Initiatives such as the family Volunteering Charity show how young people can engage in building relationships with charities through volunteering. Does the noble Baroness Stern Minister agree that more needs to be done, particularly in our schools, to encourage and support a culture of engagement with charities among young people?

14:51

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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I think the first time I was asked to volunteer was through school. So the noble Lady makes a valuable point. Volunteers are critical to civil society, and we are committed to enabling more are committed to enabling more people to get involved. Working with the voluntary sector to modernise volunteering through the Civil Society Covenant, which will promote flexible working for modern work life commitments. The noble Lady particularly focussed on children and young people, and I thought it was an interesting point made by the CAF report through our youth strategy, which sort of intersects and helpfully is led by the same Minister.

We're also looking at ways to get more young people involved.

14:52

Baroness Bull (Crossbench)

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Lord Oates I'm sure the noble Lady, the Minister will recognise the role of trustees not just in the role of trustees not just in helping to raise funds, but also in undertaking the statutory and regulatory functions within charities, all unpaid and in the spirit of public service. The Ncvo report found 85% of charities are struggling to recruit high quality trustees. So can she say what government can do to support charities in recruiting, training and retaining high quality trustees? And will she join me in acknowledging the important role of trustees within charity, within running charities? I should declare an interest.

Like many of us, I am a trustee of charities.

14:53

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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I'd say that, unfortunately, one >> I'd say that, unfortunately, one of the things that most of the front bench had to do when we took front bench had to do when we took up our roles was give up trustee roles, and I know that across the House, noble Lords are very committed to working directly with charities and giving their expertise. The government. One of the first things the government committed to was the Civil Society Covenant and the Civil Society Council, which is going to be chaired by the NGO's chief executive, is going to be meeting quarterly in Downing Street to drive toward the Covenant's implementation.

I have no doubt that this will be one of the big issues that they discuss. But like everyone in your Lordships' House, I'm sure I would encourage more people to get involved where they can.

14:54

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords have to turn to the micro level of this. One of the things when you're collecting for charities now, we don't carry charities now, we don't carry change in our pockets. So many collections actually just aren't going to work. What is the government doing to make sure that people can feel confident about using a card to make payment, and making sure some way with the banks that we are secure and we are secure when we give spontaneously like that. Yeah.

14:54

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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I think a huge number of charities now use card readers, and it's shifting quite rapidly as it's shifting quite rapidly as indeed the noble Lord is correct in that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily have funding. I'm not clear, but I'll go back and check with the department whether they've seen a correlation between that issue of people not carrying cash and the reported fall in personal donations. interesting point, and one made.

14:54

The Lord Bishop of Manchester (Bishops)

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Well by Lord Low particularly well, his response a few minutes ago, referring to place based donations and many charities. Local donations and many charities. Local charities are actually quite small, and small charities are at the most vulnerable. I wonder if the noble Lady could give us some more indications of how small charities can be and can be supportive, because they're the ones who are most most in touch with their local communities often are most likely to go to the wall if donations are falling.

14:55

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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So there's there's two things in relation to smaller charities. One relation to smaller charities. One is that clearly some of the measures that were put in place last year meant that smaller organisations actually pay less employer contributions, and that was to support smaller organisations. The place based approach to philanthropy. And I'm happy to arrange a briefing for the right reverend Prelate is around making sure that you can sort of leverage the large amounts of money, and it is entirely intended to make sure that smaller organisations, where larger ones can actually benefit from the huge generosity and the opportunities that philanthropy offers.

14:56

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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As the. years. And if the British public were still giving at the level they were a decade ago, another £12.5 billion would have been available to charities across the country. The noble Lady is right. The British people are a generous lot. But does she agree that part of the problem is they baulk at paying the extra tax bills that charities are facing in the. In terms of additional employment costs and National Insurance contributions for the National Trust alone, this costs £10 million a year.

14:56

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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The noble Lord will be entirely >> The noble Lord will be entirely aware of the. The difficult decisions this government had to make on winning the election in 2024. And my noble friend Lord Livermore is not here, but I think he would probably refer that back to the benches opposite. I don't it's worth. If the noble Lord hasn't read the report. It's a really interesting read. That wasn't one of the specific things that I recall coming up in the report.

I think that the. We'd prefer to look at it in a much more positive way to positively make the case for people giving, and will government.

14:57

Baroness Nargund (Labour)

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Before we start, too much is my >> Before we start, too much is my noble friend, sir. >> Thank you, my Lords. A new Queen Elizabeth Trust has been established to regenerate shared community spaces, reflecting Her Late Majesty's commitment to public service. These spaces could be of enormous benefit to young people who, according to the Charities Aid Foundation, have the lowest level of charitable engagement of any age group at the moment. Does the government have any plans to promote youth volunteering, particularly as a means of skills development? If so, does my noble friend the Minister agree that organisations such as Queen Elizabeth Trust, as well as the King's Trust, could help mobilise that youth involvement?

14:58

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Like other noble Lords? And like >> Like other noble Lords? And like my noble friend, I was very pleased to see the announcement of the launch of the Queen Elizabeth Trust launch of the Queen Elizabeth Trust over the weekend. Her late Majesty, whose 100th birthday would have been tomorrow, was exceptional at bringing people together. In response to my noble friend specific question around youth engagement and youth social action, we recognise that participation in youth social action, including volunteering, builds young people skills and increases their confidence with supporting the I Will movement, which aims to increase the scale, sustainability and impact of youth, social action and volunteering.

I've already referenced the National Youth Strategy, but this is part of what we're trying to encourage through that.

14:59

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Third Oral Question. Lord Barber of Chittlehampton. >> I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order

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Paper. My Lords performance is already improving as the Passenger Railway Services Act enables management of operations and infrastructure together progressively at each route and operating company, harmonising performance measurement, reducing driver shortages and improving industrial relations or are already making a difference. Passing the Railways Bill will enable Great British Railways to drive further systemic action, share good practice and encourage innovation, technology and investment, including on climate change, further improving performance whatever the season.

14:59

Lord Barber of Chittlehampton (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for his >> I thank my noble friend for his very comprehensive answer and very important work that he's doing to improve the quality of our railway. improve the quality of our railway. When I was responsible for delivery in number ten years ago, I asked DfT officials why performance in DfT officials why performance in the autumn was so much worse than the rest of the year. They rolled their eyes and said, leaves on the line.

The leaves fall off the trees. In the autumn they were saying. I said, oh yes. I realised that. What I want to know is why that takes you by surprise every year. Where's the plan for Autumn? And the result was there was a plan for autumn. And if you look at the data from 2003 to 2013, autumn performance improved every year. My question to my noble friend is, why is it that the railway that people who run the railways often leap for improving excuses, rather than focus on grinding out improvements in performance?

15:01

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The the prevailing culture on the British railway system for the last 30 years is to blame something last 30 years is to blame something somebody else when things go wrong, and that's why the government has come forward with the proposition to create Great British Railways, because actually, as I know from my own experience running transport for London, actually, you want somebody in charge who has nowhere to go, who fixes problems. I think that there's autumn is regular, happens every year. So does winter.

So does summer. The railway does have plans. The plans get altered according to the weather. The weather is getting worse because of climate change. And I'm confident that the structure that we're going to put in will drive better performance in all those seasons.

15:01

Baroness Pidgeon (Liberal Democrat)

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And my Lords. >> And my Lords. >> Lord Oates my Lords, what is the government planning to do to stop the current situation where the current situation where northern services in the North west have had their timetable cut by half on Sundays? Because Sundays fall outside of conductor's regular working week, when will this be resolved? So passengers can travel

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by train, whatever the season and whatever the day of the week? Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, the noble Baroness is completely right that the northern conductors dispute started in 2019 conductors dispute started in 2019 and there was no obvious movement of actually before 2019, but there of actually before 2019, but there was no obvious movement on it for many years prior to the accession to power of this government. I'm hopeful that there will be a resolution very shortly. It's a complex issue, but we are we are on the case, and she is right that the people in the North deserve better on Sundays, and indeed every other day of the week.

15:02

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The Minister share.

15:02

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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That in future, when a train is cancelled or severely delayed over 30 minutes, it is the public purse that will reimburse reimburse for those delays and cancellations. How is the department intending to budget for this, and from which budget does he intend to take that money?

15:03

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I think the noble Baroness will >> I think the noble Baroness will find that the public purse is recompensing. Those that delay recompensing. Those that delay repay now, and actually it's it's a good scheme to properly compensate people for for significant delays. But the object of what I've been talking about so far in this question is to reduce the delays by better management of the railway. So that's what's important here because it's not compensation that should count. It's actually running the railway properly.

15:03

Lord Birt (Crossbench)

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In the last year, just under 10% of British train journeys were either cancelled, truncated or either cancelled, truncated or arrived more than ten minutes late. The prime cause is identified. Availability of crew or fleet and signal and points failures. Recently, my wife and I holidayed in Japan for almost three weeks, travelling on national, regional and local trains. Every single train, without exception, arrived to the very minute on time and delivered us to our destination. To the very minute on time.

I ask the Minister, Will we ever attain this level of reliability?

15:04

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Virtually the whole of the world, >> Virtually the whole of the world, which runs in countries that run railways, are incredulous that this country managed to separate the infrastructure from the operations for over 30 years. And that's the primary reason and the reason why people have spent so much time in the railway not discussing how you fix delays, but whose fault it was and who pays the compensation for them. The Japanese railways are are are renowned for their reliability.

But one of the things the Japanese have never, ever done is to contemplate splitting the infrastructure from the operations. And that's what Great British Railways will solve.

15:05

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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My Lords, my Lords, we won't get improvements in performance on the railways unless we also get railways unless we also get improvements on productivity and efficiency of staff. In January this year, the RMT put out a press release boasting that they'd secured a 3.8% pay rise for their Network Rail staff, with no productivity or efficiency conditions attached. Can the noble Lords say whether Ministers will be insisting that future pay settlements will be directly linked to productivity?

15:05

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The previous Network Rail pay settlement, which was carried out but curiously not much publicised but curiously not much publicised by the government, produced not only once off productivity of a substantial amount but continuing productivity. So actually the staff involved in that pay deal for Network Rail this year are delivering increased productivity compared with the productivity that was agreed at the time that the pay rise was was, was agreed previously. We this government's been able to do that. We've settled over 50 pay deals in the last 12 months with with virtually no industrial action at all, which is entirely contrary to the record of the previous government.

15:06

Lord Berkeley (Labour)

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Could my. >> Could my. >> Friend explain, in addition to making the trains run on time, making the trains run on time, whether he has any plans with Great British Railways to offer some food on the trains? Could. My journey from Cornwall took five hours and we were. We were offered sandwiches but they hadn't arrived. It was the same last week. We were offered sandwiches, but they didn't arrive. Now if the staff are doing their best to serve customers and.

And if they can't supply sandwiches, well, maybe that should be put out to the private sector. Oh.

15:06

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Well, of course, the irony of my noble friend's journey to FOIA last noble friend's journey to FOIA last week is that it's the private sector train train company that failed to supply the sandwiches to him. And it it is a serious point. I think his complaint has been well aired because he wrote to me, he wrote to the managing director of the train company, I think he wrote to the Secretary of State, and he's now raised it in the House of Lords. And and the trolley didn't have any sandwiches on it.

It it is a point, and it's a valid point that the customer offer which is made to people should be should, should be a reliable customer offer. And a five hour journey without anything to eat isn't much fun. I hope he

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got a drink though. Doesn't Lord Reay. Train to Birmingham? And why is

15:07

Lord Morse (Crossbench)

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>> Train to Birmingham? And why is a fully nationalised integrated

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railway so delayed? Brief question.

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Because I know we're supposed to be being very brief. Very brief. Question of of the noble Lords Minister. And it's and it's this. Minister. And it's and it's this. Do you think that the quality of our transport services is helping us to deal with the problem of underemployment in this country? Or is the idea of having to get into the transport system a further disincentive to go into work?

15:08

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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It's a very reasonable point. People should be able to rely on public transport, particularly those people who don't have access to a car of their own. And one of the reasons that I'm so passionate and the government is passionate about good performance on the railway, and indeed the rest of the public transport system, is so that people can rely on it to go to work and create economic growth in this country.

15:08

Lord Redwood (Conservative)

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So will we be able to catch an HS2 train to Birmingham? This is a fully integrated nationalised fully integrated nationalised railway with enormous financial resource, but it never goes anywhere.

15:08

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The the noble Lord needs to get >> The the noble Lord needs to get up to speed with the history of HS2, because it's been comprehensively mismanaged by every government that's had anything to do with it. And actually, by the by the board and sadly, by the management of the, of, of the company that's building it, this government has been faced with the most enormous task of sorting it out. I know that Mark Wylde, who successfully managed to open the Elizabeth line after many delays from from the people who were constructing it, and Mike Brown, who is the chair of HS2, are working as hard as they can to get HS2 open as soon as it can, having first established how much it will cost and how much it will take, how long it will take to deliver, which are two facts which were unavailable at the time this government took office.

15:09

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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The fourth Oral Question Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town. Pitkeathley of Camden Town. >> I beg leave to ask the question. Standing on the Order Paper in my name.

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My Lords, the government recognises the very important role that bids can play in regenerating their local areas. And can I thank their local areas. And can I thank the noble Lord, my noble friend, for his work across bids in London in the Pride and Place strategy published on 25th of September, we committed to strengthening the bid model by expanding property owner bids, raising standards and consulting on improvements to voting procedures in bid ballots, and this will include introducing an option for digital voting.

Further details will be published in due course.

15:10

Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend, the Minister, for that answer, which leads into my further question, which is that business improvement which is that business improvement district ballots involve a clearly defined electorate of registered voters. They are overseen by local authority returning officers, and they determine real financial commitments through the bid levy. Yet participation is constrained by the continued reliance on postal only voting, which can be administered for both businesses and local authorities. If the government recognises that potential, will they now move beyond assessment and commit to enabling a small number of pilot schemes for secure digital voting in bid ballots and bring forward the necessary legislative power to do so, subject to appropriate safeguards?

15:11

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Well, we heard that the postal voting system doesn't always work as effectively as it should for bid as effectively as it should for bid ballots, and we want to make sure that ballots are as efficient and as accessible as possible, which is why we've committed to consulting on those improvements to bid voting procedures. We will consult on the introduction of digital voting for bid ballots as part of this, including how it's going to work in practical terms. And of course, we need to make absolutely sure that it can be done safely as well.

So subject to the outcome of the consultation, we will then decide how the proposal should be implemented.

15:11

Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)

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Look at international comparisons with introducing digital voting. Suggest that in other advanced democratic countries, experiments have shown that at the experiments have shown that at the local level, where the likelihood of cyber attack is low, it's OK. But at the national level, it's open to too many risks to try it out. Is that also the government's view?

15:12

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Well, we absolutely understand >> Well, we absolutely understand the interest in online voting, but when it comes to electing representatives, of course, the representatives, of course, the integrity and the security of the process must come first. And at present there are serious concerns shared internationally about the risks of online voting, including cyber threats, fraud, the challenge of ensuring a fully secure and anonymous ballot. And that's why, currently we have no plans to introduce online voting for statutory elections in the UK.

But we are focussed on strengthening the current systems for absentee voting like postal and proxy voting, so they remain secure, reliable and accessible for everyone.

15:12

Lord Hayward (Conservative)

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Lord Pitkeathley is right about the importance of generating interest in bids wherever they may happen to be across right across the country, and there is inadequate participation in voting in general when it comes to bids. Could the Minister please indicate the timetable that she's talking about in terms of the process of consultation, both in relation to digital trialling, digital voting, but also other elements of the process of introducing bids?

15:13

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Well, I agree with the noble Lord that bids do bring very significant investment in the areas significant investment in the areas they operate in. There are now more than 340 bids in the UK, and than 340 bids in the UK, and cumulatively they invest more than £169 million each year in local areas. So we do need to make sure that we are doing our very best to make sure that those bids operate in a way that works for the people that are engaged in them.

We want to get this the consultation and the analysis of that consultation done as quickly as possible so that we can make sure that where if we consider it is possible and safe to introduce digital voting for them, that we get on with that and we do it as quickly as we can.

15:14

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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My Lords. As a member of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, I've OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, I've been involved in election monitoring programs recently, for example, in Moldova. So I'm very aware of the threat of cyber attacks at the noble Lord raised. And I wonder if when she's looking at the security of digital voting systems, whether she might draw on the experience of organisations like the OSCE so that even though she says we may not be using this at the moment, in the future, we can make sure that our systems are absolutely watertight and safe from cyber attacks.

15:14

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Yeah. reminds me of the days when I was doing election monitoring in both Moldova and in Georgia, which was a fascinating experience and indeed very much appreciated then and still do the work of the OSCE. She's quite right to say that we have to make sure that we do all we can to make sure that voting is safe. We are bringing forward the representation of the people bill. I believe it's completing its common stages today, and that will come to our house in due course.

But of course, where there is good practice developed and promoted by the OSCE and others, we will look at that with great interest.

15:15

Lord Jamieson (Conservative)

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My Lords bids do much good work for our town centres. However, this for our town centres. However, this is being blown away by the massive damage caused to our town centres through higher National Insurance contributions, higher business rates, increased minimum wages and employment regulation. For example, UK hospitality figures show over 100,000 job losses since this government came to power. Will this government recognise the impact of these damaging policies to our town centres and reverse course?

15:16

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, I think the decline in our town centres and I can speak from personal experience in this, personal experience in this, started long before this government came to power, and our government is delivering on its manifesto commitment to protect the high street and rebalance the business rates system by introducing permanently lower tax rates for eligible retail, hospitality and leisure properties. And we will be bringing forward our high street strategy later on this year.

It's my noble friend, the Minister, aware of research showing that low paid workers are much more likely to spend their wages on the local high street in the local economy. And would she join me in And would she join me in encouraging my Lords to talk to workers on the national minimum wage to realise exactly what a difference that rise will make to their lives and those of their families.

15:17

Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Labour)

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Yeah. they do. And she's quite right in saying that money earned in local

15:17

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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areas is very often spent by those on on lower wages is spent locally. So it's very important we do that. And I would also add that one of the things that has really affected our high streets was the our high streets was the legislation which made shop theft of below £200 a summary only offence, and that's now being removed by this government so that we not only make our town centres

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vibrant and viable, but we make them safe as well. Yeah.

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That concludes our questions for today. My Lords, we now come to some instruments previously debated some instruments previously debated in grand committee Building Safety (Responsible Actors Scheme and (Responsible Actors Scheme and Prohibitions (Amendment) Regulations 2026 and three other

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motions. Baroness Taylor of Stevenage. I beg to move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. En bloc.

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Paper. En bloc. The question is that the four motions in the name of Baroness Taylor of Stevenage be agreed to.

15:18

Business of the House

En bloc as many as that opinion will say content the contrary, not content. The contents have it. credit institutions and investment firms. Miscellaneous definitions firms. Miscellaneous definitions Amendment Regulations 2026 and one other motion. Lord Livermore.

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My Lords, I beg to move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. En bloc. Of course.

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The question is that the two motions in the name of Lord Livermore be agreed to En bloc as Livermore be agreed to En bloc as many of that opinion will say, content the contrary, not content. content the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Aviation

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Safety Amendment Regulations, 2026. Lord Henley of Richmond Hill. My Lords, I beg to move the

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My Lords, I beg to move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The question is that this motion be agreed to, as many of that opinion will say, content contrary, not content. The contents have it. This may be an opportune moment for Lords to leave the chamber quickly

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My My Lords,

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My Lords, we My Lords, we now My Lords, we now come My Lords, we now come to consideration of Commons amendments onto Tobacco and Vapes Bill

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Baroness Merron. My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.

15:20

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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considered. >> The question is that the Commons amendments be now considered. As amendments be now considered. As many as I say, content of the contrary, not content. the contents have it motion a Baroness Merron.

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My Lords, I beg to move motion a that this House do agree with the Commons in their amendments. 28 A Commons in their amendments. 28 A Commons in their amendments. 28 A 28 b 28 C 29 A 29 b 29 C my Lords, these amendments were tabled by the government in the other place to government in the other place to correct an error arising from amendments made in your Lordships amendments made in your Lordships House at Report stage. Without these amendments, Trading standards officers in Wales would lose the ability to issue certain fixed penalty notices for the existing offence, a proxy purchasing for a short period of time.

The error would also have prevented trading standards in Wales from being able to issue fixed penalty notices for the sale of tobacco to those under the age of 18, before the smoke free generation policy takes effect on the 1st of January 2027. This is in contrast to England, where trading standards will be able to issue fixed penalty notices for these offences. My Lords, this was obviously an unintended error and if left unresolved, this would have created a difference between the enforcement regimes in England and Wales.

I am pleased, therefore, that we've been able to resolve the issue with the six narrow amendments, and I hope that noble Lords will be supportive in their considerations. I beg to move.

15:22

Lord Naseby (Conservative)

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I understand the background of it, having been involved in the early stages of the Bill. Nevertheless, it does upset a great many people in that industry that the government has not listened to. The strong representations from the retailers, and particularly those who have knowledge of this particular industry. And we have a situation now when you only got to look at it, £200, by any yardstick is a huge penalty. And you look at the revised.

Incidences that will bring this forward. And of course, we've got a new Welsh Government. We we expect fairly soon and they may not be too happy at all with what has now amended. But, my Lord, I say no more than. I think the time will come when the present government and those, I'm sorry to say on my side, own side, who believe that this idea in its whole is totally out of date in relation to what is happening in the world to be, and that what we will really need is a proper understanding of

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how we educate people not to take up smoking. My Lords, I should be clear,

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My Lords, I should be clear, given that this motion brings forward an amendment that corrects a technical error and the government has explained their government has explained their rationale, we will not oppose them. Excellent.

15:24

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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Excellent. >> My Lords, I again wish to thank your Lordships House for its

15:24

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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your Lordships House for its attentive scrutiny throughout the passage of this bill, and I pay tribute again to the front benches and also to noble Lords on all sides of the House, to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, I, as I have explained, and his own front bench have confirmed. These are purely technical amendments to make this area of the bill workable. It's a matter that had much debate, but I can overall assure the noble Lord Lord Naseby, as I've done on a number of occasions, about how closely we have worked with retailers and we will continue to do so.

I appreciate his not a supporter of the bill, and it is on that point that I wish to differ. But let me urge all noble Lords to accept these amendments and note that this afternoon marks the end of this bill's journey throughout Parliament. It is a landmark bill, my Lords. It will create a smoke free generation. It is, in fact, the biggest public health intervention in a generation, and I can assure all noble Lords it will save lives.

I beg to move.

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The question is that motion a be agreed to as many as are content. agreed to as many as are content. Content to of the contrary, not content. the contents have it. My Lords, we now come to consideration Lords, we now come to consideration of Commons reason and amendments on the children's Well-Being and Schools Bill Baroness Smith of

15:25

Legislation: Chidlren's Wellbeing and Schools Bill - consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons (day two)

Malvern. >> My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons reasons and amendments be

15:25

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Commons reasons and amendments be now considered. The question. >> Is that the Commons reasons and amendments be now considered. As many as our opinion will say content to of the contrary, not content. the contents have it motion a Baroness Smith of Malvern.

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My Lords, I beg to move motion a that this House do not insist on that this House do not insist on its amendment. 38 to which the Commons have disagreed, and do agree with the Commons in their. agree with the Commons in their. And and and do agree with the And and and do agree with the Commons in their amendments. 38 J to £0.38 and I will also speak to to £0.38 and I will also speak to motions A1A, two D and D one.

In this group we will be debating amendments relating to restricting social media for under 16 digital literacy in the school curriculum and mobile phones. And turning to speak, first of all, to motion a one tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Muhammad, which disagrees with amendments 38 J and £0.38 and proposes new amendments. 38 Q and 38 U. I'll also talk to motion A2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Nash. Amendment 38 Q would require social media services to set their own minimum age of access based on their children's risk assessment under the Online Safety Act, amendment 38, R would amend UK GDPR so that the digital age of consent is raised from 13 to 16.

For some social networking services, motion A2 amends government amendment 38, A, B and C, requiring the Secretary of State to restrict under 16 seconds from accessing user to user services or restrict specific features or functionalities when making these regulations. Firstly, my Lords, I want to thank the noble Lords Lord Mohammed of Tinsley, Lord Nash and other noble Lords for their sustained commitment on these vital issues. Let me be clear, it is a commitment that the government shares.

Protecting children online is a priority for this government, as I know it is a priority for noble Lords. The question then is not whether, but how and what action is taken and who is involved in making sure that that action is right. It is to facilitate this, that the government, of course, launched their consultation in March. I'm pleased to see that the noble Lords revised amendment considers the variety of measures that we are seeking views on through that consultation.

It acknowledges that there are numerous approaches to securing the safety and well-being of our children. A blanket ban for under 16 to access social media and restricting specific addictive features or functionalities, risky features and raising the digital age of consent under the UK GDPR. This is what our consultation is focussed on. This shows, I think, that the noble Lord, as I've suggested, is in agreement with the government that it's not only important we take swift action, but also that we take the correct action.

Let me be clear, the government consultation and the legislative means in the government's amendment is the most responsible way to get this right, ensuring effective outcomes that will last. The government's amendment allows for clear, decisive action. Amendment 38 Q, while well intentioned, may give too much discretion to services in setting age restrictions without considering the evidence from the government's consultation, amendment 38 R would change the age of digital consent in the UK. GDPR only for social networking services.

Whereas the government's consultation asks whether this change should also apply to other online services. And in thinking about how we go about this and who is involved, it might be a good opportunity to remind this House that our consultation seeks views from those affected most by the issues we're discussing today. Parents and children themselves, and we've already received over 50,000 responses, with over 30,000 from parents and more than 7000 from children from the organisations that have responded, nearly half educational organisations.

That level of engagement demonstrates that this consultation is above all about putting children first, and is engaging a broad range of people and organisations in getting it right. However, we have listened carefully to the strength of feeling expressed in both houses and have reflected seriously on the concerns raised about the pace, scope and scrutiny. That's why the government has strengthened its approach since coming to this House, and made clear changes to the proposed legislative powers. Firstly, on timing, we are determined to move at pace.

That's why we have tabled legislative powers to ensure we can act quickly grounded on the evidence of the consultation, we have now also placed a firm commitment on the face of the Bill to report to Parliament within six months. This progress report will both set out our intended course of action and a clear implementation timeline. Secondly, we have strengthened the scope and clarity of the power. We have been explicit about the purposes for which it can be used, stipulating that it can only be exercised for protecting children from online harms.

In addition, we recognise that children of different ages experience the online world in different ways, and that's why we have also made an amendment that makes clear that any future regulation must take that into account, ensuring protections are properly targeted and proportionate. And finally, to strengthen scrutiny, we have committed to share any future draft regulations with relevant select committees and opposition spokespeople prior to them being laid before the House. Regarding the part of the noble Lords Amendment on supporting children's understanding of user to User Services.

214C The government's response to the Curriculum and Assessment review sets out how the revised curriculum will take forward recommendations to strengthen media literacy to enable young people to critically engage with the messages they encounter through different media channels, and to ensure that they can identify and challenge mis and disinformation. Media literacy will be embedded in the new primary citizenship curriculum and strengthened across relevant subjects. Recent updates to relationships, sex and health education guidance now also include content on AI and deepfakes.

It explains how social media works and provides guidance on countering sexual health misinformation. The updated guidance will be used in schools from this September 2026. My Lords, we have listened, we have acted and we believe these amendments respond directly to the concerns raised. They strike the right balance between urgency and effectiveness and set out clear. Set out a clear, deliverable route to stronger protections for children online. We have been clear that it is not if we act, but how recent moving to motion D relating to amendment 106 and motion D1 tabled in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Baron, which insists on this amendment.

This amendment, we believe, is unnecessary. Our guidance is clear that all schools should be mobile phone free by default. And in making that clear, I acknowledge that we share the same policy intent as the noble Lady, as well as many other peers in the House today, to make sure that schools are mobile, phone free environments. That's why we've published strengthened guidance. We've asked our network of attendance and behaviour hubs to provide support to schools, and from this month, Ofsted will inspect schools mobile phone policies.

Because what we all want to do is to protect children from the disruption and distraction caused by mobile mobile phones throughout the school day and to create calm, focussed school environments that support learning, behaviour and wellbeing. We are all in agreement on this. We've listened carefully to Parliament and we recognise the strong and widespread feeling across the House are on this issue and that is why I can commit to putting forward an amendment in lieu in the other place, which will place this guidance on a statutory footing.

In doing that, we will create a clear legal requirement that the guidance must be followed unless there is a legally justifiable reason for schools not to do so. That amendment in lieu will respond directly to concerns raised by noble Lords, including directly in discussions with me. By placing that guidance on a statutory footing, providing clarity and consistency for schools across the country. In doing that, reduce unnecessary burdens on headteachers and send a strong message to parents giving headteachers clear backing to create and maintain the mobile phone free school environments that our revised guidance are clear should exist.

This reflects, I think, both the intentions of the noble Ladies, the concerns that have been expressed

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