Supplementary Estimates 2011-12

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

Subject to parliamentary approval of any necessary supplementary estimate, the Welsh Government’s (WG) total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) will be increased by £123,401,000 from £14,688,541,000 to £14,811,942,000.

Within the total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) changes, the impact is set out in the following tables:

Oral Answers to Questions

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

2. What recent discussions she has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on inward investment in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have had a range of meetings with Welsh Government Ministers and look forward to meeting the Welsh Government Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science on 6 February, when we plan to discuss, among other things, inward investment.

[Kevin Brennan]

The right hon. Lady will know that RBS is blaming the lack of investors for its decision to pull the plug on a deal to save Peacocks, threatening thousands of jobs. My constituents cannot understand why they were expected to bail out RBS, but RBS is refusing to help them in their time of need, when their jobs are at risk. What is the right hon. Lady doing to talk to RBS about its responsibilities in this matter?

[Mrs Gillan]

The moment I heard about Peacocks, I discussed it with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, and the Welsh Assembly Business Minister has spoken to the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk). I have the greatest sympathy. I have shopped in Peacocks myself and I know how many jobs depend on it. It is important that we explore every possibility, but I am not going to stand at the Dispatch Box, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and make false promises. We will look at what we can do for Peacocks, but it will involve the Welsh Government, as he well knows.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that inward investment played an important part in the Welsh economy and could do so again, but to have an impact Westminster and Cardiff must work together? Is it not disappointing that the Welsh Assembly seems to be very reluctant to talk with UK Trade & Investment about providing growth for the Welsh economy?

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was disappointed to see that in an interview on this very subject in an article in the Western Mail today no reference was made to working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and UKTI. I have always advocated team Wales and that we should be working together. I was delighted to see that my noble Friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, who is responsible for UKTI, has opened an invitation to every MP to get together with UKTI and host a seminar in the constituency, perhaps together with MPs from neighbouring constituencies. That is a great innovation where we can all work together, whether it is the Welsh Government, Assembly Members, MPs or Members of this House.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The worrying news about Peacocks hangs especially over the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) where the headquarters stand, and the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) with its distribution centre at Nantgarw, but the ramifications are felt right across the country, including in my own constituency where many travel to work in those centres, but also in retail centres such as in Maesteg. Will the Secretary of State directly intervene and work to keep these 10,000 vital jobs, not least as the jobless number is now rising inexorably throughout the UK, the economy is flatlining and consumer confidence is plummeting?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman speaks powerfully, but he has been a Minister and knows that direct intervention would not be appropriate until more investigations have been made as to the reasons for this reported failure of Peacocks. Because so many jobs depend on this, if there are any redundancies or job losses, Jobcentre Plus will be there to provide individual support, as it has done in other instances. I assure him and all those beyond the Chamber whose jobs depend on Peacocks that this Government and the Welsh Government, and I am sure all of us together, will do what we can.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

Given that up to now Assembly Ministers have been very slow off the mark to take action to help out with the terrible situation facing Peacocks, will the Secretary of State ensure that Ministers at both ends of the M4 pull together to try to put pressure on the banks to ensure that we can save this important Welsh company?

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is a very important company and there are many jobs to consider, as I have said before. I cannot say too often that we will look at doing all we can, but I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and make false promises at this stage before we have further and better particulars and we know the outcome of the current negotiations that are taking place between Peacocks and the banks. She should be comforted by the fact that the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science in the Welsh Government, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in our Government and I have all already been in contact on this matter.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

3. If she will assess the effect on Wales of the implementation of the recommendations of the Sayce review on employment services for disabled people.

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[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

5. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the autumn statement on the allocation of funds to the National Assembly for Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The autumn statement, and the subsequent written ministerial statement by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, confirmed that the Welsh Government will receive an extra £238 million in Barnett consequentials. This additional money is an opportunity for the Welsh Government to act in the areas they are responsible for to ensure that Wales has a bright future.

[Roger Williams]

As a result of extra funding, the pupil deprivation fund, which was agreed to by the Welsh Government and Welsh Liberal Democrats, will mean that schools in Wales are better resourced, closing the education funding gap between England and Wales. For example, Maes-y-Dderwen school in my constituency will receive an extra £34,000 a year. Does the Secretary of State agree that this will help children and young people in Wales after 13 years of Labour underfunding in education?

[Mrs Gillan]

I agree with my hon. Friend, because it was the extra funding from the Treasury to the Welsh Government that enabled the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in the Assembly to negotiate the extra funding for the pupil deprivation fund. That merely follows what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education has introduced in England. It is worth reflecting that after 13 years of Labour government the spending gap between England and Wales remained at around £600 per pupil.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The signature policy of the recent autumn statement was the capital investment programme, which included provision to raise £25 billion of finance from pension funds. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Welsh Government and the Treasury to put in place structures to ensure that Wales does not lose out?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement on capital funding has been good for Wales. The additional moneys that were announced in the autumn financial statement have made a great difference to the way in which the Welsh Government are budgeting. I regularly meet Welsh Government Ministers and colleagues in the Treasury. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to know further and better particulars, I will ensure that we talk together from time to time about developments.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

On funding, why does the new high-speed rail plan not follow the original route via a Heathrow hub, allowing south Wales travellers direct access to the airport and a direct connection to the network?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that was the previous Labour Government’s route. Matters concerning high-speed rail, HS2 and Wales are handled by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, as he well knows. I will arrange for my colleague to write to him.

[Mr Speaker]

We are on the subject of funds to the National Assembly.

[Mr Hain]

I find that reply astonishing. The right hon. Lady is Secretary of State for Wales. She has a duty, as has the whole of the Wales Office and as did her predecessors, to advance the interests of Wales. Is it not the truth that she failed to make the funding case for Wales on HS2 and we lost a great opportunity? Is it not the truth that she has spent the past 18 months demanding expensive funding concessions for her Buckinghamshire constituents, rather than advancing Wales’s funding interests? Is it not the case that she has been more concerned with stopping trains, building tunnels and selling houses in her constituency than with supporting investment, growth and jobs to benefit Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am surprised by the right hon. Gentleman, because in all the years that he was Secretary of State for Wales, he did not achieve the electrification of one single inch, whereas we in the Wales Office have already announced the electrification of the line to Cardiff. Electrification of the line to Swansea is still open and that is unfinished business. As he well knows, we are now working on the electrification of the valleys line. I hope that I will have his support for that as well. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I am sure that the whole House will be united in wishing to hear Mr Peter Bone.

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[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

7. How many apprentices are employed in her Department.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I am delighted to say that despite having a small Department of about 60 staff, two apprentices were recruited to the Wales Office last year. Both are doing very well and their teams are already impressed by their professional attitude and level of competence, as am I.

[Robert Halfon]

Will my right hon. Friend support the parliamentary apprentice school that I founded with the charity, New Deal of the Mind? Will she also consider encouraging suppliers to the Wales Office to hire apprentices? The Department for Work and Pensions is already doing that with great success and helping to reduce youth unemployment.

[Mrs Gillan]

I know of the great work that my hon. Friend has been doing on apprenticeships. Although we are a small Department, which relies on the Ministry of Justice for many of our services, I will do what I can to ensure that our suppliers are encouraged to adopt similar practices. My hon. Friend might be pleased to know that the Welsh Government recruited 24 new apprentices in 2010 and 66 in 2011. I will write to them to ask whether they can ensure that their suppliers do what he suggests.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Although I greatly I admire the work of my close comrade, the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), is not there a danger that apprenticeships that are essentially relabelled job creation and job experience schemes or internships, without a job, skill or indentures at the end, are likely to increase the cynicism and disillusionment among young people?

[Mrs Gillan]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, for example, all the apprentices at the Welsh Government undertake business administration NVQs and are recruited through fair and open competition via their website, with support from Careers Wales and Jobcentre Plus. That shows that the apprentice programmes are equipping young people to take up jobs in the future. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The House must come to order. We are discussing matters of intense interest, especially to the people of Wales.

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[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

9. What support and advice her Department provides to small businesses in Wales affected by non-payment for work undertaken.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I understand the effect that non-payment for work undertaken can have on small businesses in Wales. The Government are determined to challenge the long-standing culture of late payment that persists across all sectors of the economy and across businesses of all sizes.

[Simon Hart]

The Secretary of State will know about several sub-contractors working on the Pembroke power station who have not been paid because of a dispute between the main contractors, Alstom and SOMI Impianti. Will she help me to put pressure on those companies to resolve their differences and get the sub-contractors paid?

[Mrs Gillan]

I greatly sympathise with my hon. Friend’s constituents. I have always supported the rights of businesses on late payment of commercial debt. Back in 1994, I signed an early-day motion to that effect, so I have been consistent in my support for a long time. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to see whether there is anything I can do.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

10. What recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the funding formula for Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

8. What recent assessment she has made of the level of unemployment in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The latest unemployment figures in Wales are disappointing and show that there is still much for both the UK Government and the Welsh Government to do. We have made it clear that while tackling the deficit remains our top priority, we are committed to creating the right conditions for the private sector to expand and grow in Wales, in order to create much-needed jobs.

[Karl Turner]

Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating the Labour Welsh Government on the launch of Jobs Growth Wales, which I am told will create 4,000 jobs per year, and will she encourage her Cabinet colleagues to establish a similar scheme in this country, because our constituents are desperate for jobs?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I would congratulate any Government who tried to reduce unemployment, which blights so many families, particularly in Wales—and never more so than under the last Labour Government. However, I must say to him that the jury will be out until we see the results from that scheme.

[Andrew Miller]

As the Secretary of State will be aware, in my constituency hundreds of people cross the border both ways for employment. Constituents of mine work in Broughton, and people from Welsh constituencies travel the other way to Vauxhall, Essar and other major employers. Does the Secretary of State agree that there needs to be some joined-up thinking with her colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, in order to address the challenge my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) has just raised? There is a good scheme in Wales; why not replicate it in England?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman is wrong; this is a new scheme in Wales, being introduced by the Welsh Government. I agree that the £400 million investment in the Airbus factory will secure 6,000 Welsh jobs and many jobs in the supply chain to that factory. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister recently opened the new North factory, which will secure employment and development in that area for a long time to come.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the inaction of the Labour Government on enterprise zones is a real concern to the business community in Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me of the fact that we started the enterprise zones in England at a much earlier stage than the Welsh Government, but I am pleased to welcome the fact that the Welsh Government have designated some areas in Wales as enterprise zones. I know, however, from my discussions with business and industry that they are keenly awaiting some more details on the enterprise zones, which have been very slow in coming forward.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming the announcement by the BSW Timber sawmill in Newbridge-on-Wye in my constituency that it is about to create another 20 jobs, bringing Christmas cheer to those families who will benefit from that employment?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and I know how hard he works in his constituency to secure jobs. I offer my congratulations and hope that the business goes from strength to strength. I think we forget in this day and age when unemployment figures are going in the wrong direction that plenty of companies are creating jobs and plenty of enterprising—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I ask the Secretary of State to face the House so that we can all hear her dulcet tones, from which we will greatly benefit? I think she has finished and we are grateful to her.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State not realise how out of touch she is? The unemployment figures in Wales are not “disappointing”, they are shocking. We have had a 20% rise in the number of women claiming jobseeker’s allowance since she came to power in May 2010, including an increase of a fifth in the number out of work for more than 12 months. Why, according to her parliamentary answers to me, has her Wales Office business advisory council not yet discussed the plight of jobless women in Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to commiserate with those people who are looking for employment, but I am not going to take any lessons from him—he was part of a Labour Government under whom youth unemployment rose by more than 40% and female unemployment rose by more than 30%.

[Mr Hain]

What world is she living in? We created a record number of jobs in Wales. There are 10 men on her business advisory council—why does she not appoint at least one woman to it? With the deficit rising and growth stalling, is it not also time that her Government adopted Labour’s five-point plan for growth and jobs in Wales, including a cut in VAT on home improvements to 5%, a tax break for every small firm that takes on extra workers and a £2 billion tax on bankers’ bonuses to create 100,000 new jobs? Unless she acts now, she will condemn tens of thousands of men and women in Wales to misery.

[Mrs Gillan]

In Wales, there is an acid test of Labour’s policies. The fact is that a Labour Government are in power in Wales and, as the First Minister in Scotland said the other day:

“If Labour has the answer to economic problems and unemployment, why are unemployment and youth unemployment in Wales higher than they are in Scotland? If Labour has the magic solutions, why is it not implementing them in the one place in these islands where it is still in government?”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 17 November 2011; c. 3582.]

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

3. What recent estimate she has made of the number of 16 to 24-year-olds who are unemployed in Wales.

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[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

4. What recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effects in Wales of the rate of inflation.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have regular discussions with the Chancellor and other ministerial colleagues on a range of issues affecting Wales. I welcome the latest fall in inflation, which was published by the Office for National Statistics last week.

[Chris Evans]

On this Government’s watch, average food bills have increased by 5%, putting more pressure on hard-working families. I have listened to the Secretary of State’s responses, but can she give a guarantee that she is really fighting Wales’s corner and fighting for hard-working families in Cabinet?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what I think was a question. There can be absolutely no doubt about whether I always fight Wales’s corner in Cabinet. I thought he would at least be encouraged that the Bank of England has forecast that inflation should fall rapidly over 2012. In the mean time, the Government are taking very strong action to help consumers with high costs. We all want to help households and the Government go to the last degree to do so.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

5. When she next expects to meet representatives of the solar industry in Wales to discuss the feed-in tariff consultation.

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[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Welsh Government on the cross-border economic implications of the development of enterprise zones.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and with the First Minister on various issues, including enterprise zones in Wales. It is vital that businesses investing in Wales are given the same or even better competitive advantages as businesses in places just across the border such as Bristol and Merseyside.

[Caroline Dinenage]

Given that enterprise zones not only create jobs but have a wider geographical impact on the supply chain with regard to the economy, does the Minister share my surprise at the procrastination of the Welsh Government in locating enterprise zones in Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

This is becoming a common theme. Although the enterprise zones have been declared by the Welsh Government, we have only a recent letter from the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science of 22 November to Assembly Members, which says that the Department is currently working hard with colleagues in transport, planning and elsewhere to ensure that its enterprise zone policy can be delivered. We can only hope that it gets a wiggle on and gets those details out to businesses as fast as possible.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Blaenau Gwent, with high unemployment but great potential, includes an enterprise zone. I thank the Secretary of State for meeting developers who propose to build a £200 million race track there. She offered to speak to Ministers from the Treasury and from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about that infrastructure plan and capital allowances. Following those representations, will she meet me to feed back on progress?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am always happy to meet the hon. Gentleman, and I was pleased to meet him and the business people who are thinking of investing in Blaenau Gwent. There is a lot of work to be done on the project, which is exceedingly ambitious, but as the area has been designated by the Welsh Government as an enterprise zone for the automotive industry, I hope that good progress will be made. If any help can be given, I am always happy to see what I can do, and I will certainly be pleased to feed back to the hon. Gentleman.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend share my regret that it is almost impossible—[Interruption.]

[John Howell]

Does my right hon. Friend share my regret that it is almost impossible to answer the question about cross-border implications, because there are no details other than the location and sectors for the Welsh enterprise zones?

[Mrs Gillan]

It is increasingly difficult when relying on another Government to implement a policy, but I remain optimistic because I want the message to go out that Wales is open for business. Enterprise zones will give an advantage to businesses going into these areas and create jobs, and there are good forecasts for the number of private sector jobs to be created by 2015, so I walk in hope. I encourage the Welsh Government to do everything that they can, and I stand ready to help them.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The funding available for the Bristol enterprise zone is nearly as much as the entire amount for enterprise zones for the whole of Wales. How can the Secretary of State justify supporting that alongside the tax on trade and investment in Wales that the Severn bridge toll represents? Will she resist this massive investment at the doorway of Wales that would stop inward investment into Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

The amount given to the Welsh Government as a consequence of what is being spent on enterprise zones in England is calculated in exactly the same way under our Government as under the previous Government. The Minister in Wales has received £10 million towards enterprise zones, but she also has a budget of nearly £15 billion at her disposal, and she can decide how she spends that. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to encourage her to look at what she can do in those enterprise zones to encourage businesses.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial colleagues and (b) others on the work of UK Trade and Investment in promoting inward investment in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues, UK Trade and Investment and others on promoting inward investment in Wales. I have met the new chief executive of UKTI in the last month and yesterday I met the senior investment adviser for Wales as part of continuing discussions better to promote Wales to potential investors.

[Mr Walker]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs recently heard from the chief executive of UKTI, but he, like our Committee, is still waiting in hope for his first meeting with the Welsh Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science. Given that surprising fact, and the fact that the Secretary of State herself has met the Committee and UKTI many times, what advice can she give the Welsh Business Minister on pushing the respect agenda and the interests of Welsh business?

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend knows that I try to give encouragement to the Welsh Labour Minister for Business, rather than giving her advice, but I am pleased that the Welsh Affairs Committee is investigating trade and investment, and I look forward to giving evidence to the Committee next month. I continue to hold a series of meetings to see how we can assist and work with the Welsh Government to improve those figures.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

But is not inward investment always a second best? Brace’s bakery, an indigenous Welsh firm with its headquarters in Crumlin, took over an inward investment company in my constituency that was about to close down. On Monday, Brace’s increased its work force by a third, so will the Secretary of State give her congratulations and support to indigenous Welsh companies, and ensure that the rest of the country enjoys the great merits of Brace’s breads and Welsh cakes?

[Mrs Gillan]

Now the hon. Gentleman is tempting me; I always like a good Welsh cake. He should know how much I encourage indigenous Welsh companies, not least by my continuous support of the Fast Growth 50, which celebrates indigenous companies and the way they grow the economy, but he must not do down inward investment. In 2010-2011, 38 inward investment projects led to the creation of 2,444 new jobs and safeguarded another 1,100 jobs in Wales. I think that is pretty important and certainly not second best.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

9. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on measures to stimulate economic growth in Wales.

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[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

13. What recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial colleagues and (b) others on broadcasting in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have had recent discussions with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on a range of issues, including broadcasting in Wales. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales and I have also had recent discussions with the BBC Trust, the S4C Authority and independent Welsh television producers on the issue.

[Sarah Newton]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in calling on the head of the BBC to reconsider his savage cuts to BBC local radio so that people in Wales can continue to enjoy Welsh language broadcasting alongside people in Cornwall enjoying Cornish language broadcasting?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not know whether the microphones are playing tricks on us or—more likely—there is just too much noise. I wanted to hear fully what the hon. Lady was saying.

[Mrs Gillan]

I think I got my hon. Friend’s drift. I congratulate her on being a champion of the Cornish language. Like me, she will want to recognise and congratulate the BBC and S4C on reaching an agreement on the funding governance and accountability of S4C until 2017, thereby securing Welsh language broadcasting in Wales?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Anyone watching the BBC’s excellent sporting coverage this weekend might like to know that the odds on the right hon. Lady remaining Secretary of State have dropped from 8:1 to 2:1. Would she recommend that they have a flutter on that?

[Mrs Gillan]

I would tell the hon. Gentleman not to bother wasting his money.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the Commission on Devolution in Wales.

Before I commence the debate, may I—with the permission of the Speaker, which I sought earlier—say to the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who speaks for the Opposition on Wales, that I was shocked to hear of the incident at the Aberpergwm mine at 3 am, but I was also exceedingly glad to know that all three men have been brought out of that mine successfully? It reminds all of us, particularly after the sad events at the Gleision mine, that men are putting their lives on the line each and every day to recover coal. Because both those incidents involved the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, I thought we should acknowledge that.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

I am very grateful, and thank the right hon. Lady for that, as will the families and the individuals involved. I thank her too for her support for the miners appeal fund and for her support over the tragedy at Gleision. Today’s incident, although obviously serious, particularly for those concerned—they have suffered injuries, but fortunately they are okay—is in a very different category from Gleision, which was a major disaster and tragedy. Aberpergwm pit is run extremely efficiently by a company with high levels of investment, recruiting miners and apprentices, and in all respects an admirable company. The incident is rather an exception, but it is the third one in my constituency in the past couple of months.

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that my door is always open. We have already spoken to other Departments from my office and we will continue to deal with these matters on a cross-party and non-political basis, as is the proper and right way to deal with them.

I am pleased that we have been able to give the House an opportunity to debate in Government time the work of the Silk Commission, the commission that I announced on 11 October would examine devolution for Wales.

The coalition agreement contained three specific items on Wales. First, we promised to take forward the housing legislative competence order that had been held up by the previous Government, and I am pleased to say that we delivered on that. Secondly, we promised a referendum on granting primary legislative powers in devolved areas to the Welsh Assembly Government, and we delivered on that, although on taking office I found that preparations were—how shall I put it?—behind the curve.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Before the right hon. Lady moves on from the subject of the coalition agreement, may I point out that her party, in opposition, blocked the housing LCO during the wash-up period before the general election?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman, who was serving in the Wales Office at the time, arranged the timetabling so that the LCO would fall in that period; he could have delivered it much earlier.

Thirdly, we promised that following the referendum we would establish a process for Wales, in the vein of the Calman commission, and I am pleased to inform the House that we have delivered on that.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Before the right hon. Lady takes credit for every achievement, may I ask her to acknowledge that although the Government put the legislative framework in place, the referendum was delivered by the people of Wales, who voted for it? I am sure she will want to acknowledge that.

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman is dancing on the head of a pin. This Government gave the people of Wales the opportunity to vote in the referendum, as indeed they did, and I was pleased by the outcome. It was only as a result of a great deal of work and application by the Wales Office and others in government that we were able to deliver that on time and to the schedule anticipated.

I am pleased that today, before the first meeting of the Silk commission, we have given all Members an opportunity to register their views by allowing a full-day debate. It is fair to say that Westminster politicians rarely get the time to stand back and thoughtfully consider the future shape of our country’s constitution. We react to events, perhaps to political and tribal allegiances and timetables and, as John Major said in his Ditchley Foundation annual lecture, the Union cannot be maintained by constant antagonism—for example, between Wales and London.

Like our former Prime Minister, I opposed devolution because, as a Unionist, I believed it could be the slippery slope to separation. I am now less fearful of separation and more hopeful—

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Not all of you are. What about the others?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman suggests that not all Members are less fearful. That is fair and, in the spirit of the debate, I want to hear from Members who do not share the views that he and I hold. My fears about separatism, which have diminished, might be reflected in some Members’ contributions. I am more hopeful that there will be a mature debate and reasoned solutions, delivering a degree of self-determination without threatening the strength of the Union. With the advent of the commission, we are getting time to contribute and reflect.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is not the real Conservative agenda to offer tax-raising powers in order to freeze the block grant and end up with a semi-detached Wales, with less representation, thereby securing a permanent Tory-run Westminster, fracturing or destabilising the Union?

[Mrs Gillan]

I do not know what tortuous mental processes the hon. Gentleman goes through, but I assure him that I have no ambitions in that direction whatsoever. He has been spending too much time with the right hon. Member for Neath, who sees conspiracy theories in every quarter. This is a genuine open consultation, and the hon. Gentleman will hear as I develop my speech that the Silk commission is giving us an opportunity to reflect and try to shape the architecture of devolution in Wales.

The commission provides a coherent opportunity to review the working of devolution in Wales and the financial accountability of the devolved institution. Assembly Members are accountable to the people of Wales at the ballot box. They are judged on their record, on the decisions they make and on the outcomes of their policy decisions. We all know that government is a difficult business that involves administering complex issues and looking after the totality of the system for the people of Wales. We therefore need the commission to examine how the devolution system is working, and whether changes might improve its performance.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State ensure that the commission looks carefully at the impact of the border? My constituency, and that of many others, is close to the English border. People who live in my constituency work in England, and people who live in England work in my constituency. The differing rates of VAT, corporation tax and quarrying tax, and of expenditure, are important on both sides of the border. I do not want the commission to look specifically at Welsh issues without taking representations from the English side of the border.

[Mrs Gillan]

I could not agree more with the right hon. Gentleman. I refer him to the commission’s specifications, in which we state that it should

“consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues from devolving a package of fiscal powers”.

I think that says it all: we are keeping an open mind. The right hon. Gentleman knows that since becoming shadow Secretary of State, I have been concerned about the implications of the permeability of the border. The commission offers us the chance to look not only at recommendations that might be made but at the practical difficulties.

[Mr Hanson]

Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the factors that the commission should take into account is that Welsh Members of Parliament such as me, whose constituents use hospitals in England and work in English businesses, should have the right to vote on those matters, too?

[Mrs Gillan]

We proposed to hold this debate before the first meeting of the commission to enable Paul Silk and the other commissioners to hear Members’ views. The right hon. Gentleman’s point is well made, and I know that when the commissioners read Hansard they will take it on board. I do not want to tie the commissioners’ hands; they must decide how they will work.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) makes a principled point, the logic of which should have been extended to the previous referendums on devolution. Why did that not happen?

[Mrs Gillan]

If I recall correctly, the Richard commission reported before the Government of Wales Act 2006 was enacted. Reaction to the commission—a pick-and-mix effect—was interesting. The 2006 Act contained some items that had not been telegraphed quite so clearly, and the House certainly did not have the opportunity to debate it as fully as I am trying to ensure that we debate things today and in future. My hon. Friend is quite right about that.

[Mr Hain]

I do not understand whether the Secretary of State is saying that we did not have time to debate the Richard commission, which is a fair point, or that we did not have time to debate the 2006 Bill, which is not a fair point as we had plenty of time.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that we did not have enough time to debate the Richard commission, which is indeed a fact. I was thinking of the changes to the Assembly’s electoral system, which were not telegraphed extensively and we did not have a chance to discuss—

[Mr Hain]

We did.

[Mrs Gillan]

We may have had plenty of time in Committee, but not beforehand, and there was no wide or extensive consultation. I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, however.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

May I just recommend to the House in general, and perhaps to the Silk commission, that the commission look at the reports of the Welsh Affairs Committee on cross-border issues—which were what started this little exchange? Although the reports recognised that there were problems, they also recognised that there was a great deal of good will across the border, and that the systems were working very well indeed.

[Mrs Gillan]

That is a very constructive intervention, and in my experience the system does work exceedingly well in some instances, but that will be a matter for the commission to consider, and it will want to look at examples of what is working well and what needs adjustment.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

rose—

[Mrs Gillan]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, then I must make some progress.

[Mr Llwyd]

Further to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) made, the right hon. Lady will be aware that in the most recent referendum the majorities along the border in favour of further devolution were very high, apart from in Monmouth.

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman will be very pleased, therefore, that the Assembly now has primary legislative powers, and I am sure that he will be spending a lot of his time constructively trying to encourage the Welsh Government to come forward with some legislation, because it is now many months since the election, and correct me if I am wrong—I see the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for Arfon (Hywel Williams) nodding their heads—but we have not yet seen any draft legislation from the Welsh Government, even though they were well prepared in advance of the referendum.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware, of course, that the loyal county of Monmouthshire voted no in the recent referendum, as it always has in previous referendums.

[Mrs Gillan]

That shows the advantage of this approach to constitutional change: all hon. Members, no matter where they come from, how they speak and from what direction they approach constitutional matters, will have an opportunity to express their views. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am sure that he will speak later in the debate and let the House know what he feels the Silk commission should consider.

Before I took that series of interventions, I was saying that neither the Assembly nor the Welsh Government are accountable to the people of Wales for the money that they spend on the policies that they implement. The Welsh Government simply receive the Welsh block grant voted by Parliament, and spend it.

That cannot be right. With power comes responsibility, and it is surely better for the devolved institution to be accountable to the people of Wales not just for decisions on public spending in Wales, but by being responsible for raising some of the money needed to pay for those decisions. Even local authorities, despite receiving block grants, have responsibility for raising local council tax, and consequently they recognise the difficulty of raising tax moneys before they spend money. There is no reason why one institution—

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs Gillan]

I have been very generous, and would now like to make some progress.

There is no reason why one institution should be immune from raising taxes, and instead simply spend money and continue to ask for more—but the Labour party seems to think that that should continue. Only last Friday the right hon. Member for Neath said in The Western Mail that seeking more accountability for the Assembly and the Welsh Government was a “curiously disturbing motive”, so I certainly look forward to hearing his further observations in a minute, because I should like him also to explain the contradiction between his position and that of the Labour First Minister, who welcomes the commission and its objectives.

The first part of the Silk commission’s remit is to look at financial accountability. It will consider the case for devolving fiscal powers and recommend a package of powers that could improve the Assembly’s financial accountability. Those powers would need to be consistent with the United Kingdom’s wider fiscal objectives.

The commission will consider the tax and borrowing powers that could be devolved to the Assembly and the Welsh Government. Those include powers in relation to landfill tax, air passenger duty and stamp duty, but they are not limited to those taxes. The commission’s remit, however, is to recommend the devolution only of taxation powers that are likely to have wide support, and it will need to consult broadly to secure that support not only in Wales but in other parts of the United Kingdom.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way again; she is generous. I wish to ask about her position as Secretary of State on a point of principle underlying the Silk commission’s consideration of such fiscal powers. Does she agree that it would be wrong of any review to make recommendations that were to the financial disadvantage of the people of Wales, recognising, good Unionist that she is, that the nature of the Union depends on ensuring that economically disadvantaged areas receive greater subsidy from other parts of the UK? On that point of principle, does she concur that today we should all agree that any review of fiscal union does not disbenefit the status quo in Wales, and should if anything improve its lot?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid and good point, but once again I do not want to prejudge or tie the hands of the Silk commission, although I cannot imagine a situation in which an agreed solution, as I have anticipated and laid out in the terms of reference, would disadvantage Wales. That is far from my motivation, as he will see as I progress with my speech.

The commission already has contributions to its evidence base from work such as the Holtham commission’s reports, which were prepared to a Welsh Assembly Government remit, but crucially, unlike Holtham, the Silk commission can take things a step further. The terms of reference require the commission to consider implementation and to make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues that arise from devolving a package of fiscal powers and having consistency within the United Kingdom.

The commission will aim to report on part 1 of its remit in the autumn of next year, and the Government will consider its recommendations very carefully. Members may wish to contribute directly to the commission as well as in today’s debate, but I very much hope that we will be able to hold a debate, again on the Floor of the House, at some stage following the delivery of part 1 of the commission’s findings, because the intention is to take the matter forward as consensually as possible.

The commission will then turn its attention to the second part of its remit—to look at the current constitutional arrangements in Wales. Specifically, it will consider the powers of the Assembly and the boundary between what is devolved and non-devolved, and make recommendations to modify the boundary, if they are likely to enable the Welsh devolution settlement to work better. Again, the commission will need to consult broadly on its proposals and make only those recommendations for change that are likely to have wide support.

Currently, the Assembly has powers in all 20 devolved areas, and it will be for the commission to decide whether there is a requirement to tidy up the devolution boundary, but any further changes to the settlement will need to be right for Wales and right for the United Kingdom as a whole. I anticipate the commission reporting on part II of its remit in 2013.

With the exception perhaps of the right hon. Member for Neath, there is broad agreement on the basis for moving forward and considering issues of both fiscal devolution and accountability. The Government have moved forward collaboratively with all four political parties in the Assembly, in establishing the terms of reference and the members of the commission, and I thank in particular all four party leaders in Cardiff Bay for the positive and co-operative spirit in which they are engaged with me and my office to agree the way forward.

[David T. C. Davies]

We are at an early stage in proceedings, but will my right hon. Friend and, perhaps, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) when he speaks explain whether those nominees will be representatives who represent what their parties think, or delegates who simply pass on what their parties suggest?

[Mrs Gillan]

That is a matter not so much for me, but for the right hon. Gentleman, who I am sure will want to deal with it when he addresses the House. As far as the Conservative party is concerned, I want to be as inclusive as I can of people’s views, and that is why I am trying to create a period in which any member can make a contribution. The Conservative party, in particular, will make contributions to the Silk commission’s proceedings.

[Hywel Williams]

I merely wish to note that some distinguished members of the commission are not strictly aligned to political parties. I am sure that they will make a contribution that might even satisfy the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). Given the quality of the representation, it would be strange if they were there merely to be mouthpieces for political parties. Clearly, they have a great deal to contribute as individuals.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am about to come to the composition of the commission, and I will pick up the hon. Gentleman’s point then.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

On a point of detail about the possible extension of powers that the Silk commission is considering, will that include energy consents? The matter has been debated a lot recently, as the Secretary of State knows, and it has some support, and opposition, on both sides of the House. Ministers have made it clear that they do not think that it should be part of the commission’s deliberations. Will she clarify the situation?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that matter, particularly as before the debate I was looking at the party manifestos for the Assembly elections. He will know that I regularly receive requests for powers over all sorts of areas, and I expect those areas to be looked at. It is fair to say that I expect the commission—this is subject to the way in which it wishes to conduct its business—to consider requests for energy consents for projects of more than 50 MW, and to consider trust ports, rail and separate Welsh legal jurisdiction, all of which have been raised up the agenda by one or other party, or the Welsh Government. It is right that it should have the opportunity to consider energy consents, but I have an extremely long list of things that other parties want fully devolved, which will not stop until the point of separatism is reached. He and I agree that that is not the way to go. The commission may find itself having to consider several other areas, but I am not going to restrict its operation by anything we say in the House. Indeed, I am looking forward to seeing the outcome.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mrs Gillan]

May I make a little progress? The commissioners bring a wealth of experience to their important task. The commission is chaired by Paul Silk, a distinguished former Clerk to the National Assembly and to this House, whom we all know. Paul is already getting to grips with his task and introducing himself to those with an interest in the commission’s work.

The hon. Member for Arfon referred to the two independent members, and they are very distinguished. Dyfrig John CBE is chairman of the Principality building society and a former deputy chairman and chief executive of HSBC bank. Professor Noel Lloyd CBE is a former vice-chancellor and principal of Aberystwyth university. Neither is on the commission with a political remit. They are there as independent members to offer their best advice and to support the other members. I am sure that absolutely nothing from them will have a political bias. They will consider matters objectively and with expertise.

There are also four party political nominees on the commission, each nominated by one of the four political parties in the Assembly. Professor Nick Bourne is the Conservative nominee, and former leader of the Welsh Conservatives in the Assembly; Sue Essex is the Labour nominee, and a former Welsh Assembly Government Minister; Rob Humphreys is the Welsh Liberal Democrat nominee, and director of the Open university in Wales; and Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym is the Plaid Cymru nominee, and best known for giving Jeremy Paxman a run for his money. I am sure that the commission’s debates will be lively. I believe that that is a first-class team, and it will meet for the first time tomorrow to consider how it will work through the next two years. The commission has a challenging brief because, importantly, we hope that it will build consensus on its proposals.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

rose—

[Mrs Gillan]

I will give way first to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr—I have not given way to him previously—and then to my hon. Friend.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Based on what the Secretary of State says about consensus, which we hope the commission will be able to achieve, will she outline the process, how its recommendations will reach the statute book, and the time frame? No one in Wales is interested in a kicking-into-the-long-grass game.

[Mrs Gillan]

It depresses me a great deal to hear hon. Members say that I am kicking the matter into the long grass. I am certainly not. I am trying to take a mature and adult look at the financial structures and the constitutional and legislative structures affecting Wales. However, I will not prejudge the outcome, and I will not be prescriptive, but I have to look at potential timetables. Three have been set out. One has a shorter time scale, which assumes that, whatever the recommendations, no manifesto commitments or referendum would be necessary. In fact, it would be very difficult to produce a Bill by the time of the next general election, and the time scale could be unfeasibly short. However, again, I am not ruling that out; I am simply saying that it would be difficult. If we did that, and if there were new fiscal and constitutional powers, they would be implemented post-2015.

Another scenario is based on a manifesto commitment and no referendum, which would lead us to believe that there would be legislation after the next general election. However, I do not know what the Silk commission will recommend, or whether it will require both manifesto commitments and a referendum, in which case the time scale would be slightly longer.

I would like the hon. Gentleman to take me at my word. We are taking a long, hard look at the matter in a genuinely cross-party way. I think he knows that I made some effort to ensure that his party was included, because I thought it was important to start as we mean to go on. I hope that we will continue in that vein, although I appreciate that anything could happen at any time.

[Guto Bebb]

I share the view that the membership is impressive and that it will do a good job, but I have been contacted by a small number of constituents who have asked whether it will be remunerated for its work on our behalf.

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend can reassure his constituents that no member of the commission is being remunerated. They have all agreed to waive remuneration, but their expenses will be met from my Department. We have set aside a sum of money over three years to meet those expenses. At this stage, we are not sure how they will pan out, because I want the commission to decide how it will do its work, as it rightly should, and I do not want it to be restricted. He can reassure his constituents that the commission is doing this work for its love of Wales.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

I apologise for my voice being about an octave lower than normal. This is not a point I often make, but there is only one woman on the commission. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that it will take evidence from and talk to a wide range of people to obtain a broad range of views from both genders and across all communities in Wales, including different ethnic minority groups, so that it can take account of different perspectives?

[Mrs Gillan]

That point was well made. I, too, was concerned, and I looked at the gender balance, having been a former Minister for women. I think Sue Essex will be a doughty and robust member—[Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) says, she is equal to two men. I am sure she will give us a run for our money.

I agree entirely that many of the matters that the commission will discuss will be of great interest not only to women, but to ethnic minorities. I am sure that Paul Silk will take on board the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott).

We now have 12 years of experience of devolution in Wales. That has involved not one but two pieces of legislation that have been used to try to shape devolution to the purposes of the previous Government. There is obviously much that could be said about the effectiveness of the Assembly and the Welsh Government, but that can be better examined and tested with more accountability and the benefit of that experience.

The Government are now trying to ensure that we have a process to assess the position of Wales within the United Kingdom and to take a detailed, objective and structured examination of the architecture of devolution. This is a mature way to ensure that the Assembly and the Welsh Government get the responsibility they need to ensure accountability, and that the dividing lines on devolution benefit Wales and do not leave the Administration perpetually demanding more powers and more money rather than getting on with the business of running the devolved areas for which they have responsibility.

This is also an important statement of intent by the coalition Government. The Welsh Government receive nearly £15 billion a year from the Treasury, but, as I have said, are not accountable for raising a penny they spend. We do not think that is right, and I am certain that taxpayers do not think it is right either. I want the argument, for once, to move away from whether there is enough money to how it is spent and whether it is spent effectively. It is true to say that a Government who take from Peter and give to Paul can always rely on the support of Paul. We are asking the commission to see whether Paul can also make a contribution.

I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions and maintaining an open mind on how we can improve devolution and, through that, the economy of Wales and the well-being of its people. I hope that we will hear moderate, realistic and interesting views on the balance of powers between Westminster and Cardiff. I am sure that everyone in this House will send Paul Silk and the members of the Silk commission their best wishes for the task ahead.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hain]

I am happy to take an intervention a little later.

I am intrigued by accountability; that is why I picked up the Secretary of State on that issue in The Western Mail. I am glad that she reads The Western Mail, and my comments in it, assiduously. It is not for the Secretary of State for Wales to decide in which way the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly should be accountable to the people of Wales. The Welsh Assembly is elected by the people of Wales; she is not elected by anybody in Wales. That is the true line of accountability that operates.

[Mrs Gillan]

All I can say is that, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary once remarked, I am a Welshwoman born in Wales and therefore have a great interest in the land of my birth.

I read the right hon. Gentleman’s article in The Western Mail very carefully, and one of the things I objected to was his fear-mongering among the people of Wales. He gives the impression that we would halve public spending in Wales, and that is absolutely not the case. He should be ashamed of even suggesting that and frightening people in Wales in that way. He knows that this is an open consultation to see how we can do things better. Any fool can spend money, but those who spend money need to have some responsibility for raising it so that they can spend it rightly.

[Mr Hain]

My, my—the Secretary of State sounds rather furious. I seem to have touched a sensitive spot. I shall deal with this point later.

We welcome the establishment of the Silk commission, which, as the Secretary of State said, has been established on an all-party basis. The Welsh Assembly, which is well over a decade old, is now truly embedded into Welsh civic society, so there may be a case for looking at increasing its financial powers and flexibility. As the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has indicated, devolving stamp duty, aggregates tax and new borrowing could be advantageous to the Welsh Government and, indeed, to the people of Wales.

I agree that Paul Silk is a very good choice for this task—a distinguished Clerk in this House before he became the first, and even more distinguished, Clerk of the Assembly. I welcome what the Secretary of State has said about wanting to go forward on a consensual basis. It is important that any Bill emerging from the work of the Silk commission is born out of consultation and consensus, unlike the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill or the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which were forced on Parliament with little or no engagement with Opposition parties, the public or interested groups and experts.

[Mrs Gillan]

May I put the record straight? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I gave every Welsh MP the opportunity to meet the relevant Minister on an open-ended basis. The PVSC Bill was debated on the Floor of the House for 53 hours and 40 minutes; there were plenty of opportunities for Members to contribute.

[Mr Hain]

Let me say this to the Secretary of State: when in a hole, stop digging. She knows that she denied Members the opportunity of a Welsh Grand Committee debate, which was requested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and by the leader of Plaid Cymru, the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). Every member of the Welsh Labour group and other Members wanted that debate as well, because Wales is being savagely penalised by this Bill, on which there was no consultation at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hain]

My hon. Friend makes a significant point that the Silk commission will need to take account of in its deliberations.

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman asked me a direct question, and I will give him a direct answer. Devolved funding rules, as set out in the statement of funding policy, operate within the UK’s fiscal framework. We therefore expect any changes that come out of the commission’s work or intergovernmental talks to be consistent with that framework, for example as set out in the programme for government. As he knows, that is because macro-economic policy is a reserved matter for the UK.

[Mr Hain]

I am grateful. The Secretary of State is confirming, then—I am not challenging her on this point—that should there be a derogation in the case of, for instance, stamp duty, that would be taken from the Welsh funding block. That is what I understand her reply to mean.

My second element of disappointment is that the Silk commission will not consider the Holtham commission’s proposals for funding reform in Wales. It was the previous Labour Welsh Government who established the Holtham commission, and it produced conclusive evidence that Wales is now underfunded compared with its needs. As I think both Government parties here in Westminster now acknowledge, it was either naive or cynical of them to promise in their manifestos swift and radical reform of the Barnett formula—a promise that they had to betray after just one week in government.

We are aware that Holtham does not offer a quick solution, and that there would be impacts on the other devolved nations and regions. The introduction of a Barnett floor, which was a Labour manifesto commitment and a proposition featured in the Holtham commission’s two reports, would have ensured that Wales’s position did not become worse. Why have the Government not considered introducing a floor similar to the one that we proposed, which was agreed with the Treasury? It could be implemented relatively straightforwardly, again with the agreement of the Treasury.

The green budget published last year by the Institute for Fiscal Studies entirely vindicated Labour’s approach to the funding of Wales. By showing that the Barnett formula is only now beginning to disadvantage Wales for the first time, it proved that we were right to stick with it until last year, and equally right to proceed with reforming it thereafter. Make no mistake, up until that point the Barnett formula had served Wales well. There is no doubt that had we ripped it up several decades ago, as the nationalists advocated, Wales would have lost out. The collapse of the banks and the scale of the financial crisis suffered by Iceland and Ireland have been devastating to the nationalists’ arguments for fiscal autonomy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hain]

My hon. Friend, who has expertise in this matter from his previous shadow ministerial job, makes a valid point. Indeed, Tata Steel also talked to us about the carbon price element that is threatening the future of its industry in areas such as Llanwern and Port Talbot.

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman will therefore be greatly reassured to know that I was at Tata Steel for our business advisory group meeting at the end of last month, where I had long discussions. I am sure that he would not want to cause any anxiety to the work force. I was pleased to hear that long-term investments continue to be made by Tata Steel and that it welcomes its good relationships and exchanges with my colleagues in the Cabinet on matters pertaining to the success of that business.

[Mr Hain]

I am glad that the Secretary of State had that conversation, but all I can do is report to the House—and it is important that she hears it too—what the European chief of Tata Steel told a group of Members who met him last week, which is as I have described it. He was not concerned about any of the issues to do with the Silk commission, as we are in this debate. It is important for the Government to recognise that they should not ignore the economic realities and flirt with tax devolution—by, for example, devolving corporation tax—when that is not even on Tata’s agenda.

As for investment, Tata Steel’s European chief pointed out that the new and welcome investment at Port Talbot might not have been made had he been aware of the climate now affecting the company as a result of the Government’s incompetence, which is damaging steel production. Instead of addressing that, the Government are, through the Silk commission, considering matters such as devolving corporation tax.

A review undertaken in 2007 by Sir David Varney for the Treasury pointed to academic research that suggested that only about half the impact of a corporation tax cut was usually recovered through increased growth and investment. The question is: would lowering corporation tax in Wales to, say, the Irish level—if the Silk commission is to consider that—generate enough extra tax, including income tax, to compensate for the £400 million or so that is likely to be lopped off the Welsh block grant to comply with European Union state aid rules and compensate the Treasury for lost revenue?

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is an enthusiast for devolving corporation tax. Nevertheless, he told me that he thought it would take at least 15 years for the Northern Ireland economy to generate the growth and jobs that he anticipated from halving corporation tax, as is planned there, that would be sufficient to produce an equivalent income to compensate for the loss to the Northern Ireland block grant. What Welsh Government would choose to lose around £400 million now and each year for the best part of two decades in the hope—and only the hope—that extra inward investment and business activity would eventually make up the shortfall?

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

Of course I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I live on the border as well. Many of my constituents go across the border, but what right do he and I have to tell the English how to run their health service if we are not prepared to accept that English MPs whose constituents might come over into Wales should also have a voice over what happens within the Welsh health service?

[Mrs Gillan]

No doubt my hon. Friend will therefore give a warm welcome to the statement made on 8 September by the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), the Minister responsible for political and constitutional reform, announcing our intention of establishing a commission to look into the West Lothian question. I understand that in the not too distant future there will be further statements on the subject, which will of course address the important questions that my hon. Friend is raising today.

[David T. C. Davies]

I do indeed welcome that statement, and I look forward to participating, but I hope that we do not end up putting the cart before the horse. I hope that we do not all go off in different directions, rather than getting things done in an orderly fashion. The constitution is a very delicate thing, and it needs to be balanced.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

That is a sensible point, but my peroration has become more of a conversation now, and I wish to return to it. I shall think about what the hon. Gentleman has said, however, and I suspect that all of us will want to contribute in various and different ways if and when the England question arises.

The Silk commission is addressing fiscal powers. The leader of Plaid Cymru—I think he is still the leader—said that that could have an historic effect on Wales, by which I assume he means that it will lead to all sorts of extra powers being acquired and Wales heading much further along the road that he wishes to travel down. I am very concerned about the prospect of giving fiscal powers to Wales, however. It is hard to see how we could maintain the integration of the various parts of the United Kingdom if we were all doing different things fiscally. The Silk commission has apparently ruled out borrowing, but I have been told by those in a position to know that it has ruled out only some kinds of borrowing, and anything can be examined. There are certainly ongoing discussions about different kinds of borrowing.

[Mrs Gillan]

The Silk commission can look at future borrowing, whereas current borrowing is at present the subject of bilateral discussions between the Treasury and the Welsh Government. The Silk commission can look at future borrowing.

[David T. C. Davies]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that clarification, but what she says will not help me sleep any more easily tonight.

Before this debate started, an urgent question was asked on the Floor of the House about what has been going on in the eurozone area. That is, in fact, fairly simple to understand. There is a central bank and a currency area with all sorts of individual parts within it—we call them nation states still, although Brussels will probably want to change that in a few years—and those individual parts have all been doing their own thing. The Greeks have been borrowing as much as they wanted, and have been spending it on allowing their civil servants to retire at 50 and on buying off strikes. In short, they have been spending it on doing things we would never even consider doing—filling people’s mouths with gold, as Nye Bevan would have put it. As a result, there is now an enormous crisis across the whole area because the taxpayers of Germany are simply not prepared to bail out nations that have been behaving in an irresponsible fashion.

Yet we in the United Kingdom, having escaped the economic servitude of the euro—which many Opposition Members would have liked to put us into—now seem to want to create a situation whereby exactly the same thing could happen on a smaller scale. We have a central bank and Government responsible for interest rates and general financial policy, but there is now a proposal that the constituent parts of the United Kingdom—specifically, in this instance, Wales—should be free to go off and borrow at low interest rates, knowing that ultimately somebody else could pick up the bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

No, I do not. I accept, though, that there are people in my own party who may agree with some of the things that I think the Conservative party is guilty of—that is, not being awfully worried if Scotland and Wales left the Union. I have been thinking that for over a year now.

The New Statesman published a very good editorial last week, which finished with this:

“For the Tory right, an independent England—economically liberal, fiscally conservative, Eurosceptic, Atlanticist—is an attractive prospect. The United Kingdom, one of the most successful multiracial, multi-faith, multinational states the world has ever known, remains a cause worth fighting for. Yet, over the past weeks, fixated by the EU, the Conservative and Unionist Party seemed less aware of this than ever.”

The Trojan horse is not Welsh nationalism, but the English nationalism of the Conservative and former Unionist party.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am enjoying the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution and I know that his words will be passed on to the Silk commission. I assure him that I remain a firm Unionist, not the sort of Tory that he describes.

On a point of information for him on the borrowing powers, the Welsh Government have the ability to borrow under the powers that they inherited from the Welsh Development Agency. The bilateral talks on those borrowing powers are about how that borrowing could be used more effectively. What the Silk commission has been entrusted with is examining new borrowing powers in the context of the package of tax and borrowing powers. I hope that that clarifies the position on borrowing, which I know has been the subject of some speculation.

[Paul Murphy]

Indeed; I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for telling the House that. In a sense, it confirms my view that there is confusion about what is happening with regard to Barnett and to borrowing. There appear to be simultaneous discussions on borrowing and on what happens to Barnett on the one hand, and the Silk Commission on the other, whose job it is to look at financial responsibility as well. I am saying, “Don’t stop the talks.” It is obvious that Governments have to talk to each other, particularly as we live in difficult times, but I am also saying—she has clarified the position with regard to borrowing—that it is important for that to be part of the Silk commission’s remit.

Although I welcome the Silk commission, I warn the people of Wales that the position is not as simple as it might seem on the surface. I believe that the Secretary of State is generally in favour of the Union, but—judging by the actions that have been taken in the House of Commons over the past year or so—I do not believe that that is true of much of the rest of her party. Those of us who are genuinely in favour of the Union want the Silk commission to be about helping the people of Wales ultimately to have a better deal from the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Given that an intergovernmental approach has been applauded by the First Minister, it is imperative for him to get down to the Treasury as soon as possible to discuss the issue. We are often told that there is a respect agenda between Westminster and Cardiff. It is not therefore for us to say to the First Minister that he must act now, but I would certainly recommend that the discussions should start—and the sooner they start, the better.

[Mrs Gillan]

Let me reassure my hon. Friend that the bilateral discussions on the Holtham floor are already taking place between the two Governments. It is quite right that those matters have been reserved for bilateral intergovernmental conversations.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Secretary of State, and I am delighted to hear that those discussions have already started. I take the view that the sooner they are concluded, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am somewhat surprised to be called now. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) will have the opportunity to make a contribution, and I will be very brief.

First, may I apologise to the House on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who has had to leave because of a medical appointment? I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) expressing his interest in and loyalty to the Assembly. I shall briefly regale the House with a malapropism that came out on Radio Cymru—only the Welsh-speaking Members will understand this. A farmer from Ceredigion phoned in and called the Cynulliad “the cyn lleied” [Laughter.] I will now explain. The Cynulliad is the Assembly whereas “cyn lleied” means so little. By just a simple transposition he was able to make his point.

My party of course welcomes the establishment of the commission. We are very glad that all four parties in Wales are represented, in addition to the distinguished independent members. It is a great improvement on the Calman commission in Scotland, in which, for whatever reason, not all the parties took part. We are seeing some of the consequences of that in Scotland, where there continues to be extreme controversy about the constitutional settlement. I hope that in Wales we are one step ahead of that problem.

As all hon. Members would hope, Plaid Cymru will participate in and contribute positively to the work of the commission, trusting that its recommendations will lead to better governance of Wales, in the gradualist fashion that my party has always followed. Reference has been made a number of times to our ambition for independence for our country, but I think all hon. Members would concede that in the way we have operated over the years we have been a gradualist party aiming towards independence but prepared to work with everyone else to improve the governance of our country, with growth and prosperity for our country as our aim.

Where others shy away from seeking greater responsibility for the Welsh people and our Government, my party wants them to take it. We want them to do so because by taking responsibility for ourselves, we can create and build the better Wales—the Wales that we all want to live in. Devolution should not stop—indeed, it cannot stop, as Ron Davies said all those years ago—and it will not stop, despite the Secretary of State’s apparent call for a moratorium, which I saw in The Western Mail about three weeks ago. It is clear that in respect of the requirements of good governance, this Government take action, as did the previous Government, to transfer powers to Welsh Ministers. We see statutory instruments appearing fairly regularly to transfer powers. They are perhaps minor powers—they are not changes of principle —but that process will continue.

[Mrs Gillan]

May I reassure the hon. Gentleman that what I had envisaged was that the major questions—such as energy, ports and the other areas that have from time to time come across my desk, with demands having been made that powers in those areas be passed down—should rightly be looked at by the Silk Commission, but I am certainly not ruling out transfers of administrative matters from time to time where it makes sense? To rule that out would be nonsensical and the door is always open on those issues. I think it is a question of common sense, but we must not undermine what the Silk commission will look at in part II.

[Hywel Williams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for making that point, because her comments and those of other hon. Members could easily be misinterpreted if looked at briefly.

It seems clear that the current arrangements are not sustainable in the long term. The settlement between London and Cardiff is complicated, but that need not be a bad thing—sometimes complicated is good if the system works very well. The system does seem complicated but it is, thankfully, now much clearer than it was under the highly unsatisfactory legislative competence order system that we struggled with under the previous Government. The Under-Secretary was on the Welsh Affairs Committee with me and I am sure that he was tempted to jump to his feet when the housing LCO was mentioned. However, I shall not intrude into that particular piece of history.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

I do not, at all. I am quoting accurately from my article. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman read it and that in future he does his homework a little better lest he be in danger of misleading the House about my opinions, if nothing else. [Interruption.] He can withdraw his remarks whenever he wants.

I thank the Secretary of State for scheduling today’s debate. Labour Members and, I am sure, Members right across the House are extremely grateful that after 18 months we have a debate about a Welsh matter on the Floor of the House. We did not have a substantive one, of course, about the Welsh aspects of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, we have not had one about growth, and we have not had one about the disproportionate effect of cuts in Wales, but we are having one today, for which I am very grateful.

I asked the Library staff to look into when we last had such a long interregnum between substantive Welsh debates on the Floor of the House, but once they got back to the 1940s I told them to stop bothering.

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman will no doubt make absolutely every effort to ensure that the Backbench Business Committee, which is now responsible for scheduling our St David’s day debate, allows us to have it. It did not do so last year, despite my letters to it and despite other Members appearing before it to ask for that debate. If we have that debate, we can cover all the matters that he mentions.

[Owen Smith]

With the greatest respect, I find it extraordinary that the Secretary of State should now view it as the job of the Backbench Business Committee to decide whether we have a debate on Wales. I am surprised that she should go to that Committee to request a debate, rather than go to her colleagues around the Cabinet table such as the Chief Whip and ask for a debate in Government time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

Indeed, and thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Today’s debate and the Silk commission are extremely important, and I welcome them for two reasons. First, they enable the discussion of issues of genuine magnitude. Part I of the commission’s role on fiscal powers, and part II on the boundaries between the competences of Westminster and Wales, both cover enormously important issues that will have an impact on people in Wales in particular and across the rest of the UK. Secondly, the debate is important because it provides an opportunity to discuss the wider issue of the Union, to which my article referred, and the wider context in which the Silk commission is set. A lot of Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) in his excellent contribution, have taken that opportunity. I wish to talk about that wider context.

Government Members, including the Secretary of State, have looked askance today at Opposition Members who have said that they are suspicious of the motivation that may lie behind some of the remarks that have been made, and perhaps even behind the Government’s whole direction of travel with regard to the Union. We are seeing diminishing support from the Conservative party for the concept of the Union.

Those concerns are not plucked out of thin air, and they are not illegitimate. They are born of our reading and listening to comments made by Conservative Members, and of hearing comments such as those of the former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, who said that Scottish ambition was “fraying English tolerance”. They come from reading the conclusions of the report commissioned by the Prime Minister, when he was in opposition, from the current Justice Secretary. It recommended that the only way to deal with the West Lothian question was to create an English Parliament with English votes on English issues, denying Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Members a vote.

[Mrs Gillan]

indicated dissent.

[Owen Smith]

The Secretary of State shakes her head, but that was the conclusion drawn by a commission led by the Justice Secretary.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

No, that is not the logic at all. If the hon. Gentleman argues in that way, he is arguing against himself. He agrees with me and with many of his hon. Friends that it is this Parliament that represents the whole of the United Kingdom, so this Parliament must have the responsibility not only for raising most taxes but for spending them. He has argued, as have others, that devolved Assemblies and Parliaments must bear responsibility as well as wielding power. As I say, if that is his argument, he is arguing against himself.

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is making a valuable contribution to the debate. It is interesting to note that regional-level Governments in other countries raise a percentage of their own expenditure. For instance, in Germany regional Governments raise 56% of the 63% that is spent, and in Spain they raise 23% of the 49% that is spent.

[Mrs Laing]

As ever, I thank my right hon. Friend. Those examples illustrate my argument extremely well.

There is no doubt that there cannot be proper accountability without a well-constructed democratic system involving fiscal responsibility as well as democracy. At present Wales benefits enormously from public spending. The public expenditure cuts in Wales are considerably smaller than cuts in the rest of the United Kingdom, and public spending is currently 12% higher. As I have said, I entirely support that position. No one is trying to do Wales any harm; quite the opposite.

I am pleased that my right hon. Friend has given the Silk commission the duty of examining the future scope of devolution. Wales can learn much from what has happened in Scotland. There is a significant difference between the situation in Scotland and the situation in Wales because Scotland has, historically, its own legal system and other institutions that Wales does not have—I say that as a Scots lawyer who is perpetually confused by English law when we discuss it in the House—but the commission is nevertheless likely to bring Wales great benefits for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

We have had a long and full debate, and we have wandered over many subjects. We heard the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) ensure that we heard a plurality of views. In his own completely inimitable style he told us that the Silk commission should have a remit to consider clawing back powers from the devolved Administration. That view must be unique to him.

[Mrs Gillan]

The Silk commission can look at the boundaries, and that means adjustments in either direction.

[Nia Griffith]

I thank the Secretary of State for that clarification.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), a former Secretary of State for Wales, spoke with passion and conviction, standing up firmly for Wales and pointing out the deep mistrust of the current Government’s attitude to Wales, which is exemplified by the roughshod way in which Ministers are cutting the number of Welsh constituencies from 40 to 30. That fuels deep suspicions about what the Government’s motives are for setting up the Silk commission.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) stressed the need for a pragmatic approach that brings power nearer to the people but which does the best for the people of Wales. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) referred the Silk commission to his private Member’s Bills, the Bilingual Juries (Wales) Bill and the Jobcentre Plus (Wales) Bill. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), who had very little time, unfortunately, urged the Lib Dems to rebel on the constituency boundary issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) stressed the importance of this Parliament in taking decisions for the whole UK and urged that we move forward wisely, cautiously and with careful consideration of the issues. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) pointed out the importance of the Calman commission and stressed the excellent credentials of its members, and his words have been echoed by many hon. Members.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb)—I am not sure whether he is listening—stressed the importance of accountability and talked about practicalities. He spoke of the importance of treating businesses across the whole UK equally, but he then talked about different national insurance rates, so I am not sure quite where he was coming from.

The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) talked about the need for stability and there being no further changes for a generation. He stressed the need for the Silk commission to consult effectively and to reach out to those who have not been effectively engaged before, pointing out concerns about the volatility of some taxes. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) reaffirmed her strong Unionist credentials and welcomed the commission, which she sees as an important step towards accountability.

My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) referred to the difficulties of having continual change and to the need to take a long-term view. He also stressed the need for economic stimulus, as set out in Labour’s five-point plan, and pointed out the measures that the Assembly Government are taking to implement elements of that in the areas for which they have responsibility, such as with the successor to the future jobs fund—the jobs growth fund—and with some investment in infrastructure, where they are able to do so.

The Opposition very much welcome the establishment of the Silk commission and the important tasks it has to do. Its first task is to review the case for the devolution of fiscal powers and to recommend ways in which the financial accountability of the Welsh Assembly could be improved. It will no doubt refer to the work done by the Holtham commission in its analysis of some of the possible ways of transferring revenue-raising mechanisms to Wales. It can examine the practicalities and the likely consequences of implementing any such measures. We should not underestimate the complexity of this issue or the dangers of people being, quite naturally, tempted to play the system by switching from one side of the border to the other. That issue has been mentioned by several hon. Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). Most importantly of all, the Silk commission will need to consult and take account of public opinion. It is vital that a move towards any change has the support and backing of the people of Wales.

We are disappointed that the Secretary of State has decided to make setting up the Silk commission a priority over tackling the challenge of delivering a fairer funding system for Wales—an issue that is specifically excluded from the commission’s remit. If her Government were really interested in delivering the best for the people of Wales, they would have made it a priority to introduce the so-called Barnett floor—a concept that was explored in the Holtham reports and adopted by Labour in our 2010 manifesto as the most practical and immediate step to protect funding to Wales.

[Nia Griffith]

As the hon. Gentleman will have heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) explain, we are at a tipping point. Until now, the Barnett formula has served the people of Wales well, but from this year onwards the balance will tip slightly in the other direction. Putting a floor in would offer additional protection and would be a straightforward measure. It could be implemented with the agreement of the Treasury and without having to go into the difficulties of trying to work out a needs-based analysis, which is much more complex but is something that we might wish to see in the long term. So, as Holtham identified, the Barnett formula has served Wales well up to now, but if nothing is done it will begin to disadvantage Wales. The whole point of putting in the Barnett floor is to prevent that from happening and to protect funding. The Holtham commission recommended moving to a needs-based analysis, and it produced evidence of how a needs-based funding system could be made to work in a way that is fair to all parts of the United Kingdom. In its second report, it demonstrated that a needs-based funding formula that is fair to Wales would deliver £117 to Wales for every £100 that is spent in England on devolved activities. It recognised, too, that moving to a needs-based formula would take time but, in the meantime, the Barnett floor could protect Welsh funding. Instead of making that a priority, as it could be implemented quite easily, the Secretary of State has set up a commission that specifically will not consider the issue of funding reform.

[Mrs Gillan]

It is being done bilaterally.

[Nia Griffith]

I hope very much indeed that that bilateral work is progressing quickly and effectively.

It is small wonder, given the Conservatives’ track record on devolution, that many Opposition Members have expressed suspicions about the Government’s motives for setting up the Silk commission. There are suspicions that the Government might be trying to sell Wales short and push through measures that would seriously disadvantage Wales. The concentration of wealth creation in London and south-east England means not only in Wales but in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the other regions of England that public expenditure is greater than the income from those areas, which are all net beneficiaries of the UK tax regime, while London and parts of the south-east and East Anglia are net contributors.

That is for historical reasons, including the early emergence of London as the commercial capital and its importance as a world financial centre, and it is in contrast to other European countries, where the importance of the city state and, much later, unification has produced different patterns of wealth distribution. The disparities have existed in the UK for many years: they are deeply embedded and cannot simply be eliminated by a few years of regional policy or European funding, helpful as that is to compensate for the differences. Nor can they simply be eliminated by substantial growth in the private sector, vital as that is to Wales and across the UK.

With such deep-seated historical differences in wealth distribution, complete financial independence for Wales, as advocated by Plaid Cymru, is an absolute non-starter. With a gap of £14.6 billion between public spending and the revenue raised in Wales, it would mean every man, woman and child in Wales contributing an extra £4,800—nearly £5,000 each a year just to maintain current levels of spending.

[Nia Griffith]

Those figures were recently provided by the House of Commons Library, on 2 November, and I am sure that it has checked them thoroughly.

We are suspicious about the Government’s motives in setting up the Silk commission, whose remit excludes fair funding. It looks as if the Government might be using it as a back door to cutting funding to Wales, or seeking to adopt measures that could leave Wales subject to fluctuations in funding that would be impossible to cope with. The Labour party will strongly resist any moves that would disadvantage Wales.

Many people have been puzzled by the timing of the debate, as the remit for the Silk commission has already been set, so it did not offer an opportunity to influence its terms of reference. Perhaps, when the commission has had a chance to study the issues, it may wish to seek views or raise questions in an interim report, and that would be a more appropriate time for a debate. Having the debate now, before the commission has even begun its work, but after the terms of reference have been decided, is somewhat bizarre. [Interruption.] I think that the Secretary of State is trying to intervene, but the point was well made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen that that does make us question the reason for the debate.

[Mrs Gillan]

I should like to inform the hon. Lady and the House that the terms of reference were agreed with the Labour party in the Assembly.

[Nia Griffith]

The irony being that today we have discussed the importance of Parliament; many Government Members have referred to the importance of the commission being set up by Parliament.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I informed the House on 19 July that the Government would establish an independent Commission on Devolution in Wales this autumn to review the present financial and constitutional arrangements in Wales. I said that I would make further announcements after recess.

I am now able to inform the House that the Commission will be chaired by Paul Silk, Clerk to the National Assembly for Wales from 2001 to 2007 and a former Clerk in this House. He will be joined on the Commission by two independent members. They are:

Dyfrig John CBE, Chairman of the Principality Building Society;

and

Professor Noel Lloyd CBE, a former Vice-Chancellor and Principal of Aberystwyth University.

In addition, there will be four party political members who are each nominated by one of the four political parties in the National Assembly for Wales. They are:

Professor Nick Bourne (Welsh Conservatives nominee);

Sue Essex (Welsh Labour nominee);

Rob Humphreys (Welsh Liberal Democrats nominee); and

Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym (Plaid Cymru nominee).

The Commission members have, between them, extensive expertise and experience in financial and constitutional matters in relation to Wales. I expect the Commission to consult widely on its proposals, and to make recommendations likely to have a wide degree of support.

The terms of reference for the Commission reflect the fact that it will carry out its work in two parts. In part I, the Commission will look at the case for the devolution of fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales, and recommend a package of fiscal powers that would improve the financial accountability of the Assembly, and which are consistent with the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives.

In part II the Commission will look at the powers of the Assembly, and recommend modifications to improve the present constitutional arrangements.

The Government worked closely with the Welsh Government and all the parties in the Assembly in drafting the terms of reference. The full terms of reference for the Commission are attached at annex A, and I have also placed copies in the Library of the House.

The Commission will report to me and, in relation to part I, also to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It will be supported in its work by a small secretariat of civil servants drawn from the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government. It will make every effort to report on its recommendations in relation to part I in the autumn of 2012, and on part II during 2013.

Commission on Devolution in Wales—Terms of Reference

An independent Commission will be established to review the present financial and constitutional arrangements in Wales. It will carry out its work in two parts:

Part I: financial accountability

To review the case for the devolution of fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales and to recommend a package of powers that would improve the financial accountability of the Assembly, which are consistent with the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives and are likely to have a wide degree of support.

Part II: powers of the National Assembly for Wales

To review the powers of the National Assembly for Wales in the light of experience and to recommend modifications to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the United Kingdom Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales to better serve the people of Wales.

In undertaking part I, the Commission should:

provide independent advice on the case for improving the financial accountability of the National Assembly for Wales consistent with the fiscal and constitutional framework of the United Kingdom;

consult widely on a package of fiscal powers which would improve the financial accountability of the National Assembly for Wales;

make recommendations on whether a package of fiscal powers could be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales which are likely to have a wide degree of support; and

consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues from devolving a package of fiscal powers, including consistency within the United Kingdom.

Part I will be completed before work on part II begins.

In undertaking part II, the Commission should:

examine the powers of the National Assembly for Wales, and in particular:

the boundary between what is devolved and non-devolved;

whether modifications to the boundary should be made at this stage; and

any cross-border implications of such modifications;

consult widely on any proposed modifications to the current boundary;

make recommendations on any modifications to the settlement likely to have a wide degree of support; and

consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues from those modifications.

The Commission will not consider, in part I, the Holtham Commission’s proposals for funding reform in Wales, including Welsh Ministers’ existing borrowing powers, which are being dealt with through a separate bilateral process between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government; and, in part II, the structure of the National Assembly for Wales, including issues relating to the election of Assembly Members.

Incident at Gleision Colliery

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

On Thursday 17 September, a retaining wall holding back a body of water collapsed in Taren Gleision drift mine near Pontardawe in the Swansea Valley. Of the seven men working in the mine three men were able to escape, but all of the remaining four miners tragically died. The four trapped miners were named as Charles Breslin, 62; David Powell, 50; and Garry Jenkins, 39, from the Swansea Valley; and Phillip Hill, 45, of Neath.

It is a distressing time for the families and friends of those who lost their lives and I send my sincere condolences to them. I would also like to pay tribute to the efforts of the whole community and the organisations, including the Red Cross and the WRVS, who provided support to all concerned during what were very difficult days.

The emergency services and mine rescue workers involved in the search and rescue operation carried out their work in incredibly difficult and dangerous circumstances. We are deeply indebted to them for their tireless determination and dedication.

The Cabinet Office Civil Contingencies Secretariat provided full co-ordination in the immediate aftermath ensuring all parts of Government with a role to play were fully appraised of the situation on the ground and of any actions that needed to be taken locally and centrally. We worked closely with the Welsh Government in the initial stages of the operation. The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) was present as events unfolded and my office worked closely with him in the immediate aftermath.

The South Wales branch of the National Union of Mineworkers set up the Swansea Valley Miners Appeal Fund as a trust to administer the donations to support the families of those involved in the disaster. His Royal Highness, The Prince of Wales, has agreed to be the Royal patron of the fund. The Wales Office worked with the Charity Commission to assist the fund in gaining its charitable status, which was confirmed on 26 September. Until this point the Wales Office has agreed to reimburse the appeal fund for the funding it did not receive from gift aid contributions while charitable status was being sought.

South Wales police are currently the primary lead for the investigation and are working closely with the Health and Safety Executive. The gathering of evidence has been extremely difficult and dangerous. This evidence will need to be reviewed and the Government will continue to do all they can to facilitate a full investigation.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The coalition’s programme for government includes a commitment to

“establish a process similar to the Calman Commission for the Welsh Assembly”

and the Government’s proposals are now taking shape. I am pleased to inform the House of our plans so far.

A key strength of the Calman Commission was its consensual approach, and the Government are committed to establish a similar approach in Wales. With this in mind we have worked with the Welsh Government and all parties in the Assembly to reach a broad consensus on how we move forward.

An independent commission will be established in the autumn to look at the financial accountability of the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales. The commission will examine issues of fiscal devolution and accountability in Wales and will focus on building consensus. It will take into consideration the work of the Holtham commission and will make every effort to report on its recommendations in the autumn of 2012.

After the commission has reported and the Government have considered its proposals, the commission will look at the constitutional settlement in Wales in the light of experience. The commission will aim to report its findings in 2013.

Work will continue between the UK Government and the Welsh Government over the summer, and I will look to make further announcements on the process after recess.

The Government are committed to considering all aspects of the Holtham commission’s reports. Separate discussions will continue between the UK Government and the Welsh Government on Holtham’s proposals for funding reform for Wales and they will be extended to include the operation of existing borrowing powers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the remit of a commission on devolution and funding for Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The Government are committed to a Calman-like process for Wales and will be putting forward proposals. I have discussed the issue with the First Minister, and will be continuing to have discussions with relevant colleagues and of course the First Minister.

[Paul Murphy]

The Secretary of State will know that the Northern Ireland Executive can borrow money and the Scottish Government will soon be able to borrow money, but the Welsh Government cannot. With the cutback in capital spending on schools and hospitals, is it not now time for the right hon. Lady to enter into immediate negotiations with the Welsh Government and the First Minister so that the Welsh Government can also borrow money?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that question. He is effectively asking why Wales is the only home nation without borrowing powers. It is fair to say that the new borrowing powers for Scottish Ministers, which are set out in the Scotland Bill, will not take effect until 2015-16, which is in line with our commitment not to change the system until stabilisation of public finances. May I make it clear that we are not ruling borrowing powers for the Welsh Government in or out at this stage.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

The recent Labour Government amply demonstrated their enthusiasm for taxing and borrowing. Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be wise to allow the Welsh Assembly to follow that example?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. [Hon. Members: “No, you’re not.”] Despite the laughter from the Opposition, I am grateful to him. However, I cannot be drawn on this, and as I answered straightforwardly, we are not ruling it in or out at this stage. I want to have those discussions with the First Minister and other colleagues for the simple reason that many commentators, including the First Minister, are unsure of exactly what powers the Welsh Government would like to have.

As with the Calman process, it is right that we try to reach consensus on this and move forward. It is far too important a matter to be rushed or dealt with in a cavalier fashion.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Very important though borrowing powers are, would the right hon. Lady assure the House that the remit of the Calman-style commission will be far broader than matters financial, given the excellent work already carried out by the Holtham commission?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am committed to establishing a process for the Assembly that is similar to that set out by the Calman commission. I have made it clear that we intend to review the financing arrangements for Welsh devolution. I must repeat, however, that I think that this matter is far too important to Wales, and far too important a subject matter, to be rushed or not to be discussed fully. I am seeing the First Minister on Monday to take forward our discussions and I do not want to pre-empt them by setting any parameters.

[Mr Llwyd]

No doubt the right hon. Lady would not wish to pre-empt any decision, but in a co-operative spirit, may I suggest that matters administrative and constitutional should be considered? I am thinking of the possibility of devolving police and justice powers to Wales, for which there is a huge amount of support throughout Wales. On the vital issue of broadcasting, it is high time that Wales had control of its own broadcasting; S4C would not be in its current position if there were such control.

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman is trying to lay out his own manifesto and his party’s position with clarity, but that is not how we want to take matters forward. May I make it clear that I know how important S4C is to the Welsh language and culture? We have reached an arrangement on it, and I assure him that I will always look to the interests of S4C because I know how important a part it is of Wales’s culture.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

2. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the devolution of planning decisions for electricity projects with a generating capacity greater than 50 megawatts.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

3. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the establishment of enterprise zones in Wales; and if she will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I had initial discussions with the First Minister on the day of the Budget, following the announcement of the introduction of enterprise zones in England. I have also written making clear my commitment to work with the Welsh Government to establish enterprise zones in Wales. I am therefore delighted that the First Minister has now confirmed that Wales will benefit from enterprise zones. Having zones in Wales will provide a much-needed boost to businesses and make Wales more attractive to investors.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Secretary of State for her answer, which is most welcome. Conwy county corporate plan and the Wales spatial plan have identified Llandudno junction in my constituency as an area that is ready for growth. In my view, an enterprise zone at Llandudno junction would move from a potential for growth to real growth and create real employment in my constituency. What we need to see is co-operation between Westminster and the Assembly to ensure that that happens.

[Mrs Gillan]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who is a great champion for Aberconwy and has mentioned this matter to me before. I would welcome meetings with any Welsh Members of Parliament who think that their constituency would be an ideal location for an enterprise zone. Indeed, I have already met some Members who have made such representations.

I encourage my hon. Friend to make contact with the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly. We were all surprised and disappointed that she is not yet able to agree to appear before the Welsh Affairs Committee. I encourage her to rethink that decision and to work together with the Wales Office in a spirit of co-operation, because that would be in the interests of Welsh business.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Given the Secretary of State’s discussions about enterprise zones with the First Minister and other Welsh Assembly Ministers, does she accept that whatever we do on the ground in Wales, and whatever stimulus the Welsh Assembly can provide, we still need a proper fiscal stimulus from her colleagues in the Cabinet here? What discussions has she had with her colleagues in the Treasury about ensuring that growth happens?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point, and that is exactly why, following the Budget, there was an increased provision for the Welsh Assembly Government of £65 million. Just to correct any figures that have been bandied about, I have checked with the Treasury and £10 million of that £65 million was Barnett consequentials for enterprise zone expenditure, and £20 million was for small business rate relief consequentials. I am sure that with £30 million the Welsh Assembly Government will be able to do something.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Since the sad demise of the Development Board for Rural Wales, there has been virtually no support for manufacturing in mid-Wales. Will the Secretary of State declare that rural Wales will not be ruled out in the consideration of enterprise zones?

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend asks me to step outside my brief, because I do not have responsibility for the enterprise zones in Wales. But I am sure that the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in Wales will hear what he has said, and I encourage him to engage with her to discuss the possibilities for rural Wales.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

A potential problem with enterprise zones, as the Chairman of the Treasury Committee has pointed out, is that jobs are transferred in, rather than new jobs being created. What steps can be taken to avoid that unwelcome outcome?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I have been concerned about the position of Wales and enterprise zones from the minute that they were announced for England, not least because we have announced that there will be enterprise zones at Bristol and Merseyside. I am concerned that the enterprise zones on the English side of the border will affect inward investment in Wales, which is why I encouraged the Welsh Government to engage with us so that we can establish mechanisms that do not allow those two enterprise zones, which are so close to Wales, to suck business out of Wales.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

4. What assessment she has made of the potential effects on Wales of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

6. What recent estimate she has made of the number of public sector job losses in Wales during the comprehensive spending review period.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

A forecast of public sector job losses was published last year by the Office for Budget Responsibility. That forecast was based on UK-wide macro-economic data and no regional breakdown is available. I remain committed to working with ministerial colleagues to minimise the impact that essential reductions in public expenditure have on Welsh workers and their families.

[Mr David]

The Government talk a lot about private sector growth, but does the Secretary of State not realise that, in Wales, the private sector is dependent on the public sector? massive cuts in one have a bad impact on the other.

[Mrs Gillan]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement for Wales was more generous than for many other parts of the United Kingdom. Over the comprehensive spending review, there were cuts of some 2% in the Barnettised money going to the Welsh Assembly Government. I urge him to talk to his friends in the Welsh Government, because many public sector jobs depend on the Welsh Government and the operations in Cardiff bay.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that Dyfed-Powys police have announced this week that they have recruited 39 new police officers for the front line. Will she join me in commending the chief constable for getting his priorities right and not spreading scare stories for political benefit?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank my hon. Friend for reminding us that there are not always cuts in public sector jobs. In some instances, there is recruitment to public sector jobs. I congratulate his chief constable. I regularly meet the four chief constables in Wales, and they are all very positive about their forces and their operations protecting the public in Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Secretary of State share my concern about the report leaked last week indicating that seven out of eight HMRC offices in Wales are to be closed, leaving only one in Cardiff, with a loss of more than 1,000 jobs?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman should know that I met HMRC earlier this week to discuss the reports in the press. I am pleased to say that there are no new announcements of HMRC office closures or moves in Wales at this time. HMRC has assured me that any office closures will not lead to job reductions beyond those already required by the spending review and that there are no plans to reduce the number of HMRC offices in Wales.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

7. What assessment she has made of the potential effects on Wales of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

10. What discussions she has had on the potential devolution of powers to set rates of stamp duty in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I note the First Minister’s statement last week on his Government’s priorities for financial reform and accountability, but I have had no representations from the Welsh Government on the proposals as yet.

[Ian Lucas]

Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who raised the issue before the Welsh Assembly elections? Has she discussed it with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or do people in this Government not talk to each other?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman gets the impression that people in our Government do not talk to each other. We talk to each other all the time. I have many meetings with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor, and I am able to discuss matters that affect Wales on each and every occasion.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

11. What assessment she has made of the performance of the Welsh economy since May 2010; and if she will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

First, I welcome the hon. Lady’s interest in Wales and its economy. The economy is starting to return to growth, and I am pleased that we are beginning to see signs of improvement in employment levels in Wales. We have had to make difficult decisions in order to reduce the massive deficit that we inherited. Our policies are the right ones to restore business confidence and move people into the jobs that they need.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber, including one that I have just concluded.

[Rosie Cooper]

I apologise, Mr Speaker; I could not hear. With 5.5 people chasing every job vacancy in Wales, does the Secretary of State consider job creation to be a priority? What, if anything, have she and her Government done about it?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am afraid that I did not catch the whole of the hon. Lady’s question. However, the Government recognise that the private sector will lead economic recovery in the UK. I am proud of our record of supporting businesses, and I am proud of what is happening in Wales, where the latest unemployment statistics reveal more people in work and fewer on the unemployment register.

[Mr Speaker]

Clearly, if the Secretary of State cannot hear questions, the noise is too loud, and it is impeding the process. Let us give a fair hearing to Mr Alun Cairns.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Private sector job creation is the only way to grow the Welsh economy sustainably. Does my right hon. Friend recognise that enterprise zones have a key role to play in that respect, and does she agree that Barry would make a great location for Wales’s first enterprise zone?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman certainly punches above his height. The Vale of Glamorgan could have no greater champion. I refer him to the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly, who I am sure will be able to help him and make his dreams come true.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

12. What assessment she has made of the potential effects of High Speed 2 on the economy of Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The Government are currently consulting on a new national high-speed rail network. That is part of a wider programme of modernisation of the rail network, including electrification of the Great Western main line to Cardiff.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I have heard of trains cancelled because of snow on the line and leaves on the line, but never before because of the Secretary of State on the line. The high-speed rail link, HS2, would bring great benefits to Wales, but our Buckinghamshire-based Secretary of State opposes it. If our Secretary of State will not stand up for Wales, why does she not resign?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the hon. Lady for her close interest in my career. The Government are having an open consultation on HS2, and now that she has expressed such a great interest in the subject, we will expect her representations.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

12. What progress has been made on the Government’s commitment to undertake a process similar to the Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

Following the yes vote in the referendum on further powers, we have started to consider the scope and form of such a process. Now that the elections to the National Assembly have taken place I intend to discuss the process with other stakeholders and the First Minister. May I also take this opportunity while I am at the Dispatch Box to offer our congratulations to Carwyn Jones, who is currently considering forming the Welsh Assembly Government and has the largest party in the Welsh Assembly?

[Mary Macleod]

Our priority in Wales and elsewhere right now is to ensure that the deficit is under control. However, now that Ministers in the Welsh Assembly have more power, is it not right that they should be financially accountable for those powers as well?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. There is indeed a body of thought that believes that with the power to spend public money should come accountability, and this is certainly a matter that we will be looking at. However, this is not something that should be entered into in haste, and I intend to engage fully with the Welsh Assembly Government on the matter.

[Stephen Mosley]

The national border between north-east Wales and Chester is almost unique in that it passes through an urban area, with large numbers of people travelling in both directions every day for health care, education and employment. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the remit of the review specifically includes looking at the impact of devolution on such cross-border services?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank my hon. Friend that question too, because he knows that we in the Wales Office have been concerned about cross-border issues and their impact on health in particular. I cannot guarantee that that will fall within the scope of the Calman-like process, but I assure him that I will take into consideration any representations that he or any other Member wishes to make to the Wales Office.

[Andrew Selous]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that reforming the thoroughly discredited Barnett formula to take a fair and transparent needs-based approach for the whole of the United Kingdom would help Wales and England?

[Mrs Gillan]

The Government’s commitment to a wider review of the Barnett formula is clear, but stabilisation of the public finances comes first. I think we all recognise that the Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life, but we will consider a change to the system only once we have put the public finances in order. There was a good reason why the predecessor Government to this one made no changes to the Barnett formula in 13 years. It is not something that can be achieved in haste, only to be regretted at leisure.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I ask the Secretary of State to take great care when she deals with these issues? As she knows, there is really no appetite in Wales for tax-varying or tax-raising powers—the resource base is not there—and even if there were, we would have to have a referendum in Wales for such powers, as happened in Scotland.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because I always remember sitting and listening to him give evidence to, I believe, a House of Lords Committee looking at the Barnett formula. He said that there was no case for reviewing it because it had served well. The fact that the last Government repeatedly ruled out reforming the Barnett formula means that any reforms must be looked at carefully. He is quite right that giving tax-raising powers would involve another referendum, which is something that this Government would look at carefully, because I am not sure whether Wales has an appetite at the moment for another referendum.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Calman process in Scotland had a wider remit than merely to consider funding arrangements. Given the Labour party’s opposition to decoupling Westminster and National Assembly constituency boundaries, would it not make sense to base the make-up of the fifth National Assembly on 30 regional and 30 constituency Assembly Members?

[Mrs Gillan]

That is a very interesting thought. Hon. Members are well aware that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 broke the link between Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies. I have agreed that we need to look carefully at the implications of having constituency boundaries relating to different areas and regions for UK and Assembly elections in Wales. I am taking the hon. Gentleman’s question as a recommendation that we have 30 first-past-the-post seats and 30 elected on a list system, and I will look seriously at that suggestion.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State think that the Calman process will be as beneficial for the Tories in Wales as it was in Scotland last Thursday? Will she also congratulate Carwyn Jones on polling Labour’s highest ever Welsh Assembly vote, which included taking Cardiff North—about the safest Conservative seat in Wales—and beating the Liberal Democrats in Cardiff Central and Plaid Cymru in Llanelli? Will she ensure that if any financial concessions or flexibilities are offered to Scotland by her Government, as is now being suggested, Wales will receive equivalent benefits to compensate for the horrendous cuts that the Government are imposing on Welsh citizens?

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman is on dangerous ground here. I do not want to engage in any sort of triumphalism or tribalism, to use the words of Carwyn Jones. The right hon. Gentleman will note that I came to the Dispatch Box to congratulate Carwyn, because I have worked well with him over the past 12 months. May I just remind him that the Conservative vote went up to 25% in Wales and the number of our seats went up to 14? We are now the second largest party in the Assembly, and the right hon. Gentleman had better think again before he starts taking us on.

[Mr Hain]

I know that the hon. Members for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) and for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) will disagree with the Secretary of State on that, because Labour won the Assembly seats in their constituencies with thumping majorities. If, as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury suggested yesterday, Alex Salmond is to get the borrowing powers that he is demanding, as well as the ability to reduce corporation tax, how will increasing borrowing fit with her Government’s preoccupation with reducing the deficit at all costs? Furthermore, is not her Conservative-led Government playing into the hands of separatists by promoting separate economies?

[Mrs Gillan]

I would never play into the hands of separatists; I am a devoted Unionist, as I hope the right hon. Gentleman is. Before the Assembly elections, he and his party consistently boasted that they would win a majority in Wales, and I consider failing to do so a significant failure for him and his leader. On the question of separatism, however, he will know that my door is always open, and I would hope that we could join in common cause on this matter. He and I, and his party, support the United Kingdom and I want to ensure that all steps taken by the Wales Office will reinforce the United Kingdom. I see him nodding, and I am grateful for his acknowledgement that he would join me in that cause. I am sure that we can work well together on that.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

3. What mechanisms her Department has used to identify efficiency savings since May 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

6. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and the Welsh Assembly Government on improving broadband infrastructure in rural Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I have discussed improving broadband infrastructure across Wales with ministerial colleagues and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers. Indeed, I arranged and hosted a meeting between the broadband Minister and the former Deputy First Minister to discuss joint working.

[David Rutley]

I would like to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the important work she is doing in this vital area. Many studies, including those by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the OECD and the World Bank, have highlighted how broadband immeasurably enhances economic growth. In my own local authority of Cheshire East, faster broadband is a key element in the economic development of rural communities. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what assessment has been made of the economic benefit of enhanced broadband access in rural Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. I know that he has a great deal of expertise in this area. An independent estimate in 2009 projected that superfast broadband in the UK could create up to 600,000 jobs and add £18 billion to GDP. We are working closely with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that Wales benefits fully. Based on the population share, we estimate up to 30,000 new jobs being created and a possible £900 million of additional wealth being generated in Wales.

[Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)]

I am sure the Secretary of State will join me in congratulating Virgin Media on rolling out in Swansea this week the fastest broadband speeds in the UK. It is not just a rural problem. We have heard about the economic case. How quickly can we roll out these speeds to other parts the Principality?

[Mrs Gillan]

I was particularly pleased that we were able to announce on 10 February £10 million of funding to support the extension of superfast broadband to Pwllheli. I know from working with colleagues in the DCMS and the Welsh Assembly Government that more announcements on this front will be made later this year. The hon. Lady is quite right on this issue, and I am particularly keen because broadband take-up in Wales is at 64% in comparison with 71% in the rest of the UK. Broadband take-up in rural Wales, however, is in excess of that in urban Wales, so I am very pleased to welcome Virgin Media’s announcement.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Secretary of State will be aware not only that rural areas have slower and less reliable broadband, but that our constituents in those areas have to pay a lot more for it. Ofcom is currently investigating lowering the price that BT can charge internet service providers for wholesale broadband because it feels that prices are too high in rural areas. Will she make representations to Ofcom on behalf of people in rural areas to ensure that they, as well those in urban areas, secure a fair deal?

[Mrs Gillan]

I had some difficulty in hearing the whole of the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I should be happy to meet him to discuss the problems of rural broadband. He has always been a well-known champion of rural areas, and I am sure that if anyone can help me to make a case for bringing down costs in those areas, it will be him.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I remind the Secretary of State that she must face the Chair. However, she was not alone in her difficulty. Far too many noisy private conversations are taking place in the Chamber in which I have no interest whatsoever. I must tell the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) that I want to hear Mr Hywel Williams.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

8. What estimate she has made of the number of jobs to be created in Wales as a result of electrification of the Great Western main line to Cardiff.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The electrification of the Great Western main line will create thousands of job opportunities in the UK manufacturing and service supply chains, and Welsh companies will be well placed to take advantage of those opportunities.

[Robert Halfon]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the project will be good for jobs, not just in Wales but throughout the United Kingdom? Will she make contracts available to the many first-class English construction and engineering firms, such as those in Harlow, many of which are small businesses?

[Mrs Gillan]

I was very pleased when we were able to announce the electrification, which will indeed help to provide jobs not only in Wales but in other parts of the United Kingdom. I hope that there will be many opportunities for businesses in my hon. Friend’s constituency, as well as throughout Wales, to be involved in the process. Certainly the Wales Office will do all that it can to facilitate that.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Good transport links are vital to economic success. Will the Secretary of State undertake to deliver electrification of all the valley lines, including the line between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we identified electrification of the valley lines as a key priority as part of the development of the business case for electrification. As he will also know, I have said that I stand ready to work with the new Welsh Assembly Government and the Department for Transport to facilitate the electrification of those lines. I shall certainly examine the case for electrification of the Ebbw Vale line, which he has made to me before.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

9. What recent representations she has received from tourism operators in Wales on Government financing for tourism promotion.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

13. What recent assessment she has made of the future of the nuclear industry in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

Nuclear energy is an important component of our future energy security and carbon reduction plans. It will therefore continue to have a future in the UK’s energy policy, and I hope that a new build at Wylfa will play a key role in creating new jobs in Wales.

[Steve Baker]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in lamenting the record of the Labour party, which failed to promote the latest generation of nuclear technologies and thereby put our energy security at risk?

[Mrs Gillan]

As my hon. Friend knows, this Government have said that nuclear could be part of the future energy mix, and he will know personally of my attitude towards Wylfa continuing as a nuclear power station, with new generation at the site.

[Graham Evans]

Does the Secretary of State agree that new power plants in Wales are good news for energy security, industry and job creation?

[Mrs Gillan]

That is an easy question for me to answer. I welcome the work that has been done to enable Wylfa to continue generating low-carbon electricity for a further two years, and I am delighted that the site has been chosen as a future new site for generation. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let us have a bit of hush in the Chamber for the Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, Mr David T. C. Davies.

[David T. C. Davies]

In light of the comments of the Committee on Climate Change, which has said that nuclear represents the most cost-effective way of delivering carbon-free electricity, will the Secretary of State support the plant in Anglesey as a means of protecting future generations of homo sapiens?

[Mrs Gillan]

Once again, this is a very easy question to answer, but I nevertheless thank my hon. Friend for asking it. There is now a growing consensus of opinion right across the board in Wales that Wylfa in Anglesey would be an excellent site for future nuclear generation.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Given that an enormous amount of time and money has been put into studying tidal energy in the Severn estuary, what efforts is the Secretary of State making to take forward the plans for that and ensure they do not get lost?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Lady knows that throughout the years when I have been both shadow Secretary of State and now Secretary of State for Wales, I have been very supportive of all the work that has been done, particularly on tidal lagoons, as well as in examining the case for the Severn barrage, which has, of course, been put to one side for the time being. I can assure her, businesses in her constituency and our research institutes that we will always consider that option for future generation in and around the Welsh coast.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

In addition to the fear of a Welsh Fukushima, the cost of new nuclear is such that the only new nuclear power station in the world is already three years late and £2 billion over budget. Why does the Secretary of State not concentrate on the immense power of the tides in Wales, including the second highest rise and fall of tide in the world, and give us energy that is clean, safe and eternal?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman has been consistent, but he has asked questions on this matter of the Minister with responsibility for energy, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), and of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and he knows very well that the Government’s view is that tidal energy has a part to play in our energy programmes of the future, but so, too, has nuclear.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I welcome the clear yes result announced on 4 March. The vote in favour of primary law-making powers for the Assembly will enable the Welsh Assembly Government to get on with the job of delivering better public services in Wales.

[Jonathan Lord]

I thank the Secretary of State. I note that there are now 20 devolved areas of policy for the Welsh Assembly and that Scotland has had similar powers for many years. Has she had conversations with other Ministers about the commission that we have been promised, or preferably legislation, so that only English MPs can vote on English laws that affect English residents, and thereby maintain the parity—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but we must move on.

[Mrs Gillan]

I think my hon. Friend is referring to what is known as the West Lothian question, or as we sometimes call it in Wales, the West Clwydian question. I have had words with the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), and as he informed the House on 15 December, the Government will make an announcement this year on plans to establish a commission to consider the West Lothian question.

[Simon Hart]

Can the Secretary of State provide a timetable for the introduction of a Calman-style inquiry, as per the coalition agreement, and will she undertake a full consultation on the matter?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. When we established the coalition Government, we committed in the coalition agreement to establishing a Calman-like process for the Assembly. I will announce further details on that in the coming months.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has just said that there will be a commission on the so-called West Lothian question. Does she personally believe that Welsh Members of Parliament should have fewer voting rights in this place, particularly bearing in mind that her Government have cut the number of Welsh MPs by 25%?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is important that every vote is of an equal weight in this country. I am sure he would not want me to revisit arguments that have been well made and exhausted in the House.

When the commission is established, it will need to take into account the Government’s proposals for House of Lords reform, the changes to the way in which this House does business and the changes to the devolution settlement in considering potential solutions to the West Lothian question.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming the resounding yes vote in the referendum on 3 March? As she knows, I legislated on behalf of a Labour Government for primary powers for the Assembly in 2006, and we are delighted at this historic day for Wales. I hope she is too.

[Mrs Gillan]

The shadow Secretary of State must have been asleep when I answered the question in the first place and said that I welcomed the yes vote. I said that specifically during the passage of the Government of Wales Act 2006, when I sat in his position. I am also delighted that, despite prevarication, it was a Conservative-led coalition Government who delivered that referendum for the people of Wales.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that given the nature of the yes campaign, it is clear that the vast majority of people in Wales wish to remain part of the Union? As a proud Welshman and a proud Unionist, I believe as strongly as other Members that something must be done about the West Lothian question, to stop Welsh MPs voting on matters for which they have no responsibility.

[Mrs Gillan]

I, too, am a devoted Unionist, but I recognise that the yes vote does not mean that the Welsh devolution settlement will stand still. It is a living object, which is why we are establishing a Calman-like process to examine the future of the Welsh Assembly and how we are governed across the UK, specifically in Wales.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

3. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on expenditure on broadband projects in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on measures to attract inward investment to Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

Clearly, with so many of our companies in Wales having strong links with Japan, and given that some of our inward investment comes from there, I am sure the whole House would like to join me on behalf of Wales in sending our deepest condolences for the appalling tragedy.

I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on measures to attract inward investment to Wales. Last month I hosted a trilateral meeting between the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the UK Minister responsible for trade and investment to discuss how we can work together to bring much-needed investment to Wales. We will be meeting again shortly.

[Karen Lumley]

Does the Secretary of State agree that Wales has much to offer business, as the Welsh Affairs Committee heard yesterday from Sir Terry Matthews? Can she also tell us what she is doing to work with the Welsh Assembly to bring inward investment to Wales?

[Mrs Gillan]

Although it is too early to prejudge the outcome of the Committee’s inquiry on inward investment, a clear message on skills emerged in oral evidence last week. That message was consistent with the conclusions of the earlier cities report. Certainly, I will see how the UK Government can work with the Welsh Assembly Government to encourage more inward investment, because Wales is a great place to do business.

[John Howell]

In the last couple of weeks, a number of strong foreign trade and investment visits have been made to Wales, particularly from India and the US. Does the Secretary of State agree that those are vital for Wales, and that we should maximise the opportunities that they present?

[Mrs Gillan]

It is very easy to agree with my hon. Friend on that, because we need to maximise the opportunities that such visits present. Wales’s share of UK inward investment projects halved in the past decade from 6% to 3% and we need to act quickly to reverse that. It is therefore important to work across Government Departments in Whitehall, together with the Welsh Assembly Government, so that we have a cohesive programme for attracting inward investment.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

With unemployment reaching a 17-year high this morning—up to 8.7% in Wales—where is the Secretary of State’s plan for growth?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am tired of Members talking Wales down. The message that has just gone out from the hon. Gentleman is not a positive one. The unemployment figures were announced this morning. Although I have given them a cautious welcome because the economic inactivity rate continues to fall, I want people to know that we have a willing and able work force and that Wales is open for business. It is about time the hon. Gentleman joined me in talking Wales up.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It emerged in the Welsh Affairs Committee’s visit to Germany that vital inward investment opportunities were not being taken up by UK Trade & Investment because of the abolition of regional development agencies in England. Does the Secretary of State accept that this may represent a major opportunity for Wales and if so, what is she doing about it?

[Mrs Gillan]

I had a particularly good meeting with the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister responsible for trade. I am keen that we should have some joined-up government, because we have not been taking advantage of all the opportunities that exist. After the Assembly elections we shall have to take that forward with the new Welsh Assembly Government, and I know the current Welsh Assembly Government have been looking at rationalising their offices abroad and having a more comprehensive programme—one that is engaged with UKTI, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Foreign Office, and the Wales Office. Together, we will have a stronger presence.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

6. What recent representations she has received on the mechanism for calculating the block grant settlement for the Welsh Assembly.

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[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

10. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Welsh Assembly Government on energy policy in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The Under-Secretary of State for Wales and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on a range of issues, including energy policy. Last week, I was pleased to call the first Welsh Grand Committee debate on energy since 2008, which gave right hon. and hon. Members a chance to debate in detail that issue, which is of vital importance to Wales.

[Graham Evans]

As a result of the last Government’s policy of burying their head in the sand when it came to energy, we are facing the real prospect of power cuts. Does the Secretary of State agree that building new power plants in Wales is essential for energy security, industry and job creation?

[Mrs Gillan]

Energy is certainly a key priority of this Government and we are working hard to ensure that the UK, including Wales, has an energy infrastructure that is fit for the 21st century.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the exciting plans of the Welsh Assembly Government to generate enough electricity for every home in Wales from non-barrage marine sources offers Wales an energy future, like that of Ireland and Scotland, that will be nuclear free and renewables rich?

[Mrs Gillan]

I am not sure that I caught the drift of the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I have always welcomed the work that is being done to enable Wylfa A to continue to generate low-carbon electricity for a further two years until 2012. I was also delighted that Wylfa was chosen as the site for a potential new station in the future.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

This Government have put the environment at the heart of their energy policy. Last week, I attended the launch of Norman Electrical Ltd, a small business in my constituency that is working with households and businesses to invest in renewable technologies. Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming such start-ups and do what she can, with colleagues, to help Wales to become central to the renewable technology sector in the UK?

[Mrs Gillan]

Yes, I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the company in her constituency. If all 26 million households in the United Kingdom take up our green deal over the next 20 years, employment in that sector could rise from its present level of 27,000 to something approaching 250,000, working all around the UK to make our housing stock fit for a low-carbon world.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

11. What recent estimate she has made of the number of jobs to be lost in the public sector in Wales as a result of the reductions in public expenditure in 2011-12.

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[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

12. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on electrification of the rail network in south Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The statement made on St David’s Day by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport was excellent news for all parts of south and west Wales. This £1 billion investment will deliver all the benefits and improvements of an electrified railway to Wales, with faster acceleration, greater comfort and cleaner and greener travel. The decision to extend electrification to south Wales recognises that improved rail infrastructure and lower journey times are vital components for delivering a successful economic recovery in Wales.

[Mr Hollobone]

What estimate has the Secretary of State made of the number of new jobs that will be created in Wales as a result of the electrification programme?

[Mrs Gillan]

I hope that the electrification of the rail line, which was launched and announced with full funding by this Government, will bring the much-needed inward investment into Wales, resulting in the many jobs that we need.

The Prime Minister was asked—