Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
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Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
4. What steps he plans to take in support of the recent report of the United Nations commission of inquiry on human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I welcome the recent United Nations report, which exposes shocking human rights violations in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and I urge the DPRK authorities to respond to its contents. The United Kingdom is actively supporting a strong UN Human Rights Council resolution on the DPRK. Yesterday I was in Geneva, working to deliver a resolution that makes it clear that there can be no impunity for human rights violators.
Andrew Selous
As the United Nations has found North Korea to be committing crimes against humanity on a scale unparalleled in the modern world, will the Government refer those responsible to the International Criminal Court and lobby the BBC to broadcast the World Service into North Korea, given the increase in demand for the so-called immoral devices of small radios, the ban on which eased last month? We can no longer say we do not know—it is time to act.
Mr Swire
I certainly agree with my hon. Friend’s last comment. On the International Criminal Court, in principle it could be an appropriate forum, although the DPRK has not signed up to it. We strongly agree that there should be no impunity for crimes of this sort, so we need to look at the most effective way of holding the DPRK to account.
On the BBC, my hon. Friend will know that I have been in correspondence with and have attended the all-party group on North Korea to discuss the issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and the noble Lord Alton. We have approached the BBC and are waiting for its detailed response. I must stress, however, that the BBC World Service is operationally, managerially and editorially independent.
Diana Johnson
Does the Minister think that the UN Security Council will agree to a referral to the International Criminal Court, and have there been any discussions about possible targeted sanctions against those responsible for crimes against humanity?
Mr Swire
I remind the hon. Lady that I was in Geneva yesterday for the opening day of the UN Human Rights Council. The commission will formally present its report on 17 March, so these are very early days. The annual resolution led by the European Union and Japan will then be taken at the end of the Human Rights Council and we will work with colleagues there to ensure that we have the best possible mechanism to hold the DPRK to account. Incidentally, I believe that when the curtain is finally lifted on that country, we will see evidence of human rights violations that surpass anything we have seen in any other country in the past 50 years.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the international community’s response to human rights violations in North Korea has been wholly inadequate to date and that we must now challenge that country with the same emphasis placed on security issues?
Mr Swire
I do and I congratulate my hon. Friend on all the work she has been doing. She has arranged a briefing by Open Doors this afternoon—I have asked officials to attend it—to highlight the plight of Christians in the DPRK. I also commend—this is not a plug—a book I have just read by the noble Lord Alton called “Building Bridges”, which is the most shocking account of what has been going on in that country.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
20. What conversations are the UK Government having with China, specifically about the report’s recommendations on the forced repatriation of North Koreans, which is having a devastating impact on Christians who defect to China?
Mr Swire
We have had discussions with our Chinese opposite numbers on refoulement—that is, the repatriation of those who have escaped from DPRK to China. We had a UK-China strategic dialogue last week and I raised the issue with my opposite number, as did my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary with his opposite number.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
2. What recent assessment he has made of the political situation in Ukraine.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
10. What discussions he had during his recent visit to Burma.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
During my second visit to Burma in January, I met Aung San Suu Kyi, key Ministers, the Speaker, and the Commander-in-Chief. I discussed the need for constitutional reform and continued progress in the peace talks, and I raised in strong terms our concerns about human rights and about the situation in Rakhine state. I was also the first British Minister to visit Kachin state since Burma gained independence in 1948. Among other things, I met a group of Kachin world war two veterans, and paid tribute to their exceptional and brave service during the war.
Valerie Vaz
I thank the Minister for his response, and pay tribute to you, Mr Speaker: if you had not raised the issue of political prisoners with the General and Ministers during your recent trip, they would not have been released.
May I urge the Minister to press the Burmese Government? There is still concern about the census. Many people have been displaced, Médecins Sans Frontières has been suspended from Rakhine, and there needs to be constitutional reform by 2015 if there are to be free and fair elections.
Mr Swire
We approach this issue in a spirit of agreement, and, in accordance with the pledge that I had given the hon. Lady previously, I was able to raise the issue of political prisoners. I believe that there are still 30 whose cases are disputed.
As for the census, the hon. Lady will be aware that we are providing funds for it, and that it is the first census to take place for a very long time. There are issues surrounding it, but we believe that it is the right course. I believe that our engagement with Burma is on the right lines, but serious issues remain, not least the continuing problems in Rakhine.
Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
I welcome what the Minister has said, and his engagement with Burma. Of course there are many challenges within the country, but does he not accept that the steps towards peace and democracy deserve our support and wholehearted engagement while the opportunity presents itself?
Mr Swire
Yes, I do. I have been able to discuss the situation with Baroness Amos, the United Nations under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs, in the last couple of weeks. I also discussed it yesterday in Geneva with António Guterres, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and last night with Peter Maurer, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
We are all extremely concerned about aspects of what is still going on in Burma, but we believe that, with our support across the board, the Burmese Government need encouragement on the path towards democracy. It was never going to be easy, but we must redouble our efforts to ensure that they deliver on the pledges that they have made.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
On Friday I met representatives of the Karen community who have been settled in Sheffield for some period now. They expressed great concern about Karen people in Burma, despite the peace talks. What is the Foreign Office doing to look at the situation of the many ethnic groups in Burma, not just the Rohingya Muslims, and to ensure there really is peace and that they are given support to integrate properly into society throughout Burma?
Mr Swire
The hon. Lady is right to raise that. We are extremely concerned about allegations of human rights violations and inter-communal violence. We have discussed this right across the board with Burma’s leaders and with Aung San Suu Kyi herself. The census is an important step. Whatever kind of Government then come about in Burma will, to my way of thinking, have to recognise some of the differences in the different parts of that country. Human rights are universal; we cannot pick and choose them, and everyone in that country is entitled to the same protection as everyone else, regardless of their ethnicity.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Knowledge is key in promoting democracy. Does my right hon. Friend therefore welcome the assistance this House is giving in setting up the library in the new Burmese Parliament?
Mr Swire
Yes I do, and you, Mr Speaker, and others at all levels in this place are trying to show best practice. In effect, we are trying to build a democratic country in a country that has not been a democracy. We are trying to embed democratic institutions and that requires a lot of work, and I pay tribute to those right across this House—officials, civil servants, Ministers, Opposition MPs. All of us have a part to play in this, given our long-standing close affinity and history with that country.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
11. What steps his Department is taking to provide protection for British civilian personnel currently working in Afghanistan.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
T2. The coalition Government have set great store by encouraging stronger economic, cultural, religious and tourism links with India. With that in mind, there is constant lobbying for the reintroduction of direct flights from London to Gujarat, and especially Ahmedabad. What diplomatic efforts can Ministers launch to assist that campaign and get that much needed reform in place?
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Of course the issue of direct flights between London and Ahmedabad is ultimately a commercial decision for airlines, but India hosts the largest UK diplomatic network in the world and we now have a British trade office there. I visited Gujarat and met the state’s Chief Minister Modi in March 2013, and we would welcome such direct flights because a huge section of the population travels to and does business with that thriving and vibrant part of India.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
T5. What impact will our worsening relations with Russia have on our ability and that of our NATO allies to bring military equipment from Afghanistan back home via the overland route through Russia?
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
T4. On Saturday, more than 100 people were injured and, tragically, 29 were killed as a result of the brutal mass stabbing in the Chinese city of Kunming. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, whatever the underlying issues, that horrific attack is no solution to the problem? Will he join me in expressing our condolences to the families of those affected?
Mr Swire
I strongly condemn the brutal terrorist attack at Kunming train station on 1 March. My thoughts and sympathies are with the families of the victims and those injured. Our consular team responded immediately to reports of the incident, speaking to local police and hospitals where the victims were taken for treatment. The Yunnan authorities have confirmed that no British nationals were caught up in the attack. We remain in touch with the local authorities and receive regular updates.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
T7. One of the main reasons given to this House in 2001 for our involvement in Afghanistan was that 90% of the heroin consumed in Britain came from Afghanistan. Thirteen years later, and after the tragic deaths of 447 of our brave soldiers, 90% of the heroin on the streets of Britain is still coming from Afghanistan, where the heroin crop is at a record level. Helmand is controlled by the Taliban. Can this be described as “mission accomplished”?
UN Commission of Inquiry (Democratic People's Republic of Korea)
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
On 17 February the United Nations Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) published its final report. I would like to inform the House of the commission’s findings and to explain how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is responding on behalf of the Government.
The Commission of Inquiry (COI) was established by a unanimous decision of the UN Human Rights Council in March 2013. Its mandate is to investigate independently the reports of systematic, widespread and grave violations of human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. These include violations of the right to life, the right to food, freedom of expression and freedom of movement; violations associated with prison camps, torture and inhuman treatment, and arbitrary detention; and enforced disappearances, including in the form of abductions of nationals of other states. The commission was also tasked to conduct its investigation with a view to ensuring that those responsible for human rights violations will be held accountable for their crimes. The UK has actively supported the work of the commission. In October 2013, we arranged a visit by the Commissioners Justice Kirby and Sonja Biserko to the UK, where they took evidence from North Korean refugees and from NGOs. The Commissioners also met me as FCO Minister of State, as well as other parliamentarians.
The commission has systematically collected detailed and damning accounts of appalling human rights violations in a way that has never been done previously. Their findings are horrifying. They include: torture, rape, executions and disappearances; using deliberate starvation as a means of control and punishment in detention facilities; a virtually absolute ban on ordinary citizens travelling abroad; and severe punishments for practising Christianity. While the COI acknowledges it is neither a judicial body nor a prosecutor, it believes its findings constitute reasonable grounds to establish that crimes against humanity have been committed. The commissioners have found that the DPRK is a state where human rights violations and crimes against humanity are ingrained into the institutional framework, pursuant to policies established at the highest level of the state. These crimes against humanity are ongoing and occur as part of a systematic and widespread attack of the state against anyone who is considered to pose a threat to the political system and leadership of the DPRK. The report finds that the DPRK’s isolationist mindset, aversion to engagement with the international community, all-encompassing indoctrination policies, and brutal security institutions protected by impunity are without parallel in the contemporary world.
On behalf of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office I have issued a statement welcoming the spotlight the commission has shone on these shocking human rights violations, which have gone on for far too long. I have urged the DPRK authorities to respond in detail to the contents of the report and to address the violations that it documents. UK officials have ensured the DPRK is aware of this statement.
We are now studying the recommendations of the report in detail. Although the commission has now concluded its work, the UK believes that this should be a beginning and not an end. The international community must respond to the report’s findings. On March 17 the commission will formally present its report to the UN Human Rights Council. As in previous years, the UK will be supporting a Human Rights Council resolution on the situation in the DPRK. We will work closely with the EU and other like-minded partners to ensure the Council sends a strong message to the DPRK that there can be no impunity for human rights violators.
Deep Sea Mining Bill
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Sheryll Murray
I thank the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who, along with her colleagues the hon. Members for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), tabled the amendment. I know that they all feel strongly about the need to protect the environment.
Coming, as I do, from what I consider to be the beautiful county in Cornwall, I of course sympathise strongly with those hon. Members. [Interruption.] The Minister indicates that I might come from the second most beautiful county, so perhaps I should have referred to the wider south-west. Furthermore, I come from a fishing background, so I know well the impact that pollution can have on fishermen and their livelihoods. I also know that in some of the areas that the Bill relates to it would be very difficult to fish for species such as orange roughy, as the hon. Member for Bristol East indicated.
Since I have been in charge of the Bill, I have learned a lot about deep sea mining. In particular, I have become very conscious of the importance of environmental conditions, which will have to be taken into account once deep sea mining becomes a reality. Of course, we are looking only at exploration. I understand that the UK has issued one licence for exploration, and another one is going through, but exploitation, as the hon. Lady mentioned, is a long way off. I know that the Government are very aware of environmental issues and am sure that they will keep to their commitment to ensure the application of the highest environmental standards. I can assure Members on both sides of the Chamber that I, too, will be very astute to ensure that happens.
Section 5 of the 1981 Act will not be amended by the Bill, except for technical changes to include references to Scottish Ministers. I believe that that is a real benefit to Scotland and the United Kingdom. Section 5 already includes provisions to ensure that protection of the marine environment is taken into account, and indeed is at the forefront of the Secretary of State’s mind, when licences are issued. While I sympathise with the hon. Lady’s concerns, I do not think the amendment is necessary. I understand also that the Minister will raise some technical objections to it and that the Government will not support it. In those circumstances, I hope that she will not press the amendment, so that the Bill can make progress.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I was interested to hear some of the suggestions made this morning, as I have attended some, although not all, of the consideration of the Bill as it has made progress. The Government completely understand the sentiments that have led the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) to table the amendment —the hon. Gentleman is not in his place today, but he has been an assiduous attendee previously. The Government are committed to ensuring that the highest environmental standards are followed when exploration and exploitation of the deep sea bed take place. As the hon. Lady said, we are often—pardon the pun—in uncharted waters: this is new and exploratory, so environmental considerations need to be at the forefront of our proposals.
As hon. Members will know, the Government were approached 18 months ago by a major commercial company, Lockheed Martin, to sponsor its application to explore for minerals on the deep sea bed. When we received that approach, we took great pains to ensure that the environmental standards were the best that could be devised. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs was closely involved, as were two eminent scientists from outside the Government. When the application reached the council of the International Seabed Authority, the environmental aspects were generally praised by delegations. At the meeting of the council last year, when the first discussion of the possible shape of future regulations took place, the Government made it clear that they would expect those regulations to incorporate environmental provisions of the highest standards.
The British Government have already spoken and acted in a manner that will ensure that the highest environmental standards are adhered to, and I know that the need to protect the natural environment has universal support across the House. However, the Government cannot support the amendment, and I shall try to explain why.
Section 5 of the 1981 Act, to which the hon. Member for Bristol East and my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) referred, already includes clear provisions on the need to protect the marine environment. I know that on Second Reading the hon. Member for Brent North suggested that section 5 might not be sufficiently up to date, but we do not believe that to be the case. Section 5 is worded in a general manner and can accommodate changes to environmental perspectives.
Kerry McCarthy
The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North and I have been making is that post 1981 it has been clearly established that the precautionary principle, agreed at Rio, should apply, and it is missing here. It is the reversal of the burden of proof that will be missing if we stick to the 1981 Act. It is important to reflect in the Bill the extent to which the precautionary principle has been accepted.
Mr Swire
The hon. Lady is right, but we also want companies to come here, and therefore we want to ensure that our environmental protections are the best and are in place. We are convinced they are and that section 5 of the 1981 Act is worded in a general manner that can accommodate changes to environmental perspectives. We do not believe that the amendment would add anything to the legislation.
On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Brent North referred to the precautionary approach in principle 15 of the Rio declaration. But the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea made it clear in its 2011 advisory opinion that sponsoring states should comply with the terms of principle 15, as well as best environmental practices. In exercising his functions to issue licences under the Act, the Secretary of State would have to comply with those provisions.
In addition, by replacing the whole of the current section 5, the amendment would lose two key elements. The requirement at the end of subsection (1) for the Secretary of State to consider any representations would be lost, as would the power in subsection (2) for the Secretary of State to include in licences provisions about protection of the marine environment. On those two technical grounds alone, the amendment cannot be supported.
More substantively, the amendment would require a full environmental impact assessment, even before exploration is carried out. However, as the hon. Member for Bristol East conceded, exploration of the deep sea bed involves minimal disturbance of the marine environment and no commercial company would be expected to undertake a full environmental assessment in those circumstances. The Bill should not be about preventing responsible companies from undertaking responsible exploration. On the contrary, the Government believe that we should actively encourage exploration of the deep sea bed. That is because the scientific information obtained through exploration will be an essential element in considering the environmental aspects of mining when it does take place. As the hon. Lady acknowledged in Committee, mining on the deep sea bed will eventually take place.
The amendment refers to a number of other international instruments. The Government are entirely conscious of the current developments in international environmental law, and have for example been at the forefront of international action on climate change—as is well recognised. It is clear therefore that international developments will be, and will have to be, taken into account when decisions on whether to issue licences are eventually made. But we should not limit ourselves in this way. There may be national developments, or developments in the European Union, that should also be taken into account. The current text of section 5 of the 1981 Act already allows for this and indeed, in this respect, is wider in its ambit than the amendment. For that reason, the Government do not support the amendment.
Kerry McCarthy
I remind the Minister that the amendment says
“including but not limited to”.
We were conscious when drafting the amendment that we did not want to limit it to just those treaties cited, so that other laws and treaties agreed over time would be included.
Mr Swire
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for clarifying that point.
Of course the Government will continue to expect that the International Seabed Authority, in its decision-making process, should work towards meeting agreed international standards with respect to protection of the environment, and should utilise the latest information about the importance of marine areas. The Government recognise that the work being carried out under the convention on biological diversity to identify ecologically and biologically significant areas, along with the identification of vulnerable marine ecosystems, provide authoritative information that needs to be taken into account within the processes of the International Seabed Authority. Furthermore, let me assure hon. Members that the secretariat of the ISA is highly expert and, in particular, well aware of international developments in the environmental field. I think, therefore, that the House can have confidence that these developments will not be overlooked.
In conclusion, the Government sympathise with the reasons that have led the hon. Members for Bristol East and for Brent North to table the amendment. We have had an interesting debate, but as I have said, the Government cannot support it and are satisfied that section 5 of the 1981 Act is sufficient. In the light of this, I hope that the hon. Lady will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Kerry McCarthy
I thank the Minister for his response, although he has not entirely set my mind at rest. I would have liked the Bill to build on the environmental protections set out in the 1981 Act, given that we have moved on considerably since then, and I would have liked the precautionary principle firmly established in the Bill, because that is where we are at now with environmental protection internationally, but I do not intend to press the amendment. With respect to the Minister, however, he is the third Minister to deal with the Bill—there was one Minister on Second Reading, one in Committee and now another on Report and Third Reading—and there will be yet another Minister in the Lords. Furthermore, I am the second Labour spokesperson to deal with it. I hope in the Lords, therefore, there will be an opportunity for detailed scrutiny to ensure that we tie things together and take the Bill forward properly.
Kerry McCarthy
Certainly, we have moved on from the stage when probably not a single Member knew what was meant when we referred to hydrothermal vents, polymetallic nodules, a cobalt-rich crust or any of the other things we have been discussing, so we have been significantly enlightened. Nevertheless, I hope that the Lords will further scrutinise the environmental provisions and perhaps pull some of this together and table some amendments. As I have said, however, I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Reading
Mr Swire
I wish to put on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray)—and not, as she was erroneously called, the hon. Member for North East Cornwall. I think North Cornwall currently belongs to our coalition partners, but I am sure that at the next general election she, like all of us in the south-west, will be doing everything to ensure that if she does not actually personally occupy that part of Cornwall, there will be a member of the same party who does. It is worth putting on the record that it is the only seat in Cornwall—[Interruption.] There is of course St Ives, which is extremely vulnerable to the Conservative surge.
Sheryll Murray
My right hon. Friend will wish to know that, currently, our coalition partners hold St Ives, St Austell and Newquay, and North Cornwall. The Conservatives currently hold—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Lady will resume her seat. Before the Minister continues, let me say that that has nothing to do with the Third Reading of this Bill. I know that it is Friday and that the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady are looking forward to getting back to Cornwall, so if we could concentrate just on the Bill I would be a very happy Deputy Speaker.
Mr Swire
Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologise. I share your agitation and excitement. Mine was only the excitement about May 2015 and what might happen thereafter. I will certainly not be tempted further down that exciting route.
I also thank other right hon. and hon. Members who have served their time on this Bill. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) referred to the fact that it has been handled by a number of different Ministers throughout its passage. That is a factor of life here sometimes, but, as I said to her, it does mean that there will be a wide understanding of the legislation. As it is new and quite complicated, the more people who understand what it is about—the new technology and the new exploration way below the sea—the better.
It is of course entirely appropriate, as hon. Members have said, that it should be a Back Bencher from a constituency in Cornwall, which is the second most beautiful part of England after Devon, who has brought the Bill to the House. Cornwall not only has been involved in mining for generations—indeed, from before Roman times—but is of course a great maritime county. My hon. Friend has always been a strong advocate of her native county. Certainly, the fishing industry and her constituents are represented extremely well by her. I do not know anyone here who has a greater understanding of the marine environment, from which she has derived both pleasure and tragedy.
I am pleased that my hon. Friend has taken the Bill forward with such aplomb. She has the distinction, as we have heard, of having been in charge of private Member’s Bills in two consecutive Sessions, which is certainly an unusual achievement. As to her revealing the secret of how she was balloted for two Bills, she gave the figure “336”, but said that she did not want people to know that it was her secret number. I remind her gently that recordings of this place are, as we speak, being broadcast to the four corners of the world. Who knows, one day they might be broadcast to the sea bed as well, so Captain Nemo can watch them. Quite a lot of people will remember 336 now and, with her indulgence, I shall be tempted to use some of those numbers when I next fill in my national lottery form as they have brought her such luck in the past.
Why is deep sea mining such a prominent issue just now? One or two comments have been made to the effect that the Bill is in some way premature and that the industry is in its infancy, and some have asked why we are doing this now. It is worth recalling that in the 1980s there was a great deal of interest in deep sea mining, although I must confess that I was not aware of that myself. There were expectations then of a major boom in deep sea mining and pessimism in many quarters that an internationally agreed regime could not be achieved. It was against that background that the Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981 was passed.
The addition of the words “Temporary Provisions” to that Act now seems ironic, as here we are 33 years later and the Act is still in force. That, presumably, gives a new definition to the word “temporary”. Let us hope that the same use of the word does not apply when we talk about other parties “temporarily” holding on to seats that should be ours in the south-west—we do not envisage that going on for 33 years, Madam Deputy Speaker. In recognition of the fact that deep sea mining is here to stay, we will remove those words from the short title. I imagine that that is probably the most uncontentious thing I could say.
Going back to the 1980s—and many of us would like to—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. With respect, we do not need to go back to the 1980s. We are on the Third Reading of a Bill that apparently has support in the House and the debate is about the provisions of the Bill. We have moved beyond needing context from the 1980s. There are a lot of Bills still to come this morning, so I would be grateful if the Minister referred to this Bill and its provisions.
Mr Swire
I am making as much haste as I possibly can, Madam Deputy Speaker, given the complexities of some parts of the Bill. I was alluding back to the ’80s because of the commercial side of the issue. The commercial companies that showed an interest in deep sea mining at that time ceased to do so and although the idea lived on, it did not seem likely to become a reality any time soon.
Mr Nuttall
Does the Minister know why, over the intervening three decades, cross-party agreement has arisen on these matters? If we look back to the debates on the 1981 Act, we can see that it was pretty contentious, with Divisions on Second and Third Readings.
Mr Swire
I think that is for two reasons. First, such ideas are becoming a reality, whereas in the 1980s they were a distant prospect, and, secondly, our understanding of the management of the environment, not least the marine environment, has improved in leaps and bounds. Marine conservation zones and ecological balancing mean that we are way ahead of where we were then. No doubt you would rightly stop me going down memory lane to the 1980s, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall not continue along that line, but I hope that I have answered my hon. Friend’s questions as best I can.
The other part of the prediction also turned out to be incorrect. We were able to achieve an internationally agreed regime for deep sea mining. However, the road to achieving that was not straightforward. When the United Nations convention on the law of the sea was first adopted, the United Kingdom, in common with other industrialised countries, could not accept the provisions on deep sea mining. Those were included in part XI of the convention and were not attractive to commercial companies. The industrialised countries stood aloof from the convention, even though—apart from part XI—the provisions were satisfactory. Indeed, they were of great advantage to industrialised countries.
As the date for the convention’s coming into force grew closer, the developing countries appreciated that a convention with no participation from industrialised countries would not be to their advantage. Negotiations began to revise part XI or, in the diplomatic speak of the time, to set out how it would be implemented. I am pleased to note that United Kingdom representatives played a prominent role in those negotiations. The result was the so-called part XI agreement, which met the concerns of the industrialised countries and paved the way for the United Kingdom and other industrialised countries to ratify the convention.
Let me say now that the British Government consider that the convention, read with the part XI agreement, represents an excellent platform for the future development of deep sea mining. There is a need to ensure that the commercial terms encourage commercial companies, which are rightly hard-headed about the process, to invest the large sums necessary to make deep sea mining a reality. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) elegantly made the point, in a well-balanced argument, that there is a balance to be struck. We want to encourage deep sea mining and ensure that companies come here to register for the licences, but we do not want to give them false expectations; they can spend huge amounts of money before they mine anything. That is one reason why we were unable to accept the amendment.
Ultimately, the deep sea is, as the convention says and as the hon. Member for Bristol East said, the common heritage of mankind; that is the phrase that has been universally used. It is a ringing phrase, which means a great deal to many people around the world, particularly those who are nervous about the concept of touching the sea bed. Ultimately, the benefits of deep sea mining should be shared with all members of the international community. That is recognised by the convention, and we are happy to endorse it.
The hon. Lady and my hon. Friend talked about profits and which country should benefit from any money made, which is perhaps slightly putting the cart before the horse. Apart from the licence fees, the issue of what direct benefits will accrue to sponsoring states is one of the many that will need to be considered during the development of the exploitation regulations. However, the indirect benefits are likely to be substantial. Deep sea mining is a significant opportunity for UK industry, especially in the light of the technological advances made during the development of the oil and gas industry in the North sea. We look forward to UK industry making full use of that opportunity.
As for the International Seabed Authority, its council will have to produce in due course rules about the
“equitable sharing of financial and other economic benefits deriving from activities in the Area”,
taking into particular consideration the interests and needs of the developing states. In other words, the ultimate intention, although we are probably a long way away from this, is that the economic benefits of deep sea mining should, rightly, be shared with developing countries. Talk of the precise nature of how the money will be held and disbursed, and of where sovereign wealth funds should be located and who should be involved with them, is somewhat premature.
Nevertheless, a balance is needed between the requirements of the commercial companies and those of the beneficiaries in the international community as a whole. It would be counter-productive to fix payments to the international community at a level that would deter the commercial companies. In other words, we must ensure that the international community secures a reasonable rate of return without putting off the commercial companies without which there would be no mining at all—ergo no revenue, no sovereign wealth fund and no ability to share any profits with developing countries because, by definition, there would be no profits to share.
I am perhaps getting a little ahead of myself because, at present, there is no mining on the deep sea bed—that is a statement of fact. There have been only applications to explore for minerals. So far the International Seabed Authority has approved 19 such applications. Four more were held over from its 2013 session, and at least three new applications will be considered during the coming year.
The pace of applications has increased markedly in the last few years, as we might expect. There may well be many reasons why, but there is no doubt that there are two in particular: first, the development of technology, much of it by British companies that have been working in the North sea for many years, as their unrivalled expertise in deep sea drilling has a knock-on effect for their understanding of deep sea mining; and, secondly, the exponential economic growth in certain countries, which I need not name, that has fuelled a significant increase in their demand for metals and precious minerals. It follows that deep sea mining for mineral deposits on the sea bed is close to becoming technically and economically viable. It is also a truism that, with an increasing world population and finite resources, we will need to look to the oceans to provide additional sources of support for our growing needs and demands. We need to be acutely aware of changes in our ability to produce energy and extract minerals. I refer the House to the need for a serious look, from an environmental perspective, at the exploitation of shale gas, which has had hugely beneficial effects, especially regarding the cost of energy, in countries such as the United States that are well ahead of us on that practice.
Perhaps I should explain to the House how the system set out in the United Nations convention on the law of the sea works. Any application to explore for mineral resources on the deep sea bed requires sponsorship by a state party, which must be able to exercise sufficient jurisdiction over the company it is sponsoring. It is worth saying that an advisory opinion in 2011 by the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea helpfully elucidated the duties cast on a sponsoring state by the convention, which include a requirement to adopt a precautionary approach to environmental issues.
Once a company has secured the sponsorship of a state, its application goes to the International Seabed Authority. I am pleased to note that the authority’s headquarters are in Kingston in Jamaica, a fellow Commonwealth country. I am the Minister for the Commonwealth, so I have a further excuse to go and inspect the headquarters personally—if the cold weather continues, I shall be going sooner rather than later.
The application will then be considered by the legal and technical commission of the International Seabed Authority, which is composed of experts from across the world and gives technical advice to the ISA’s council. Once approved by the commission, the application is forwarded to the council, which is composed of a number of member states that have a particular interest in deep sea mining. It is then for the council to approve the application.
The final step is that the contractor and the International Seabed Authority enter into a contract that has a number of standard provisions, including on the reports that the contractor must make to the authority. Effective regulation of the contractor will be secured through a combination of those provisions and the domestic law of the state sponsoring the application. The authority is at present concerned only with the exploration of the deep sea bed.
Mr Nuttall
The Minister may be aware that the original convention on the law of the sea established a body called the Enterprise, the purpose of which was to serve as the authority’s mining operator. As far as I am aware, no steps are being taken to bring the Enterprise into operation. Is he aware of any moves in that direction? Will the ISA take control of this itself?
Mr Swire
I am not aware of any such rules, but I commit to writing to my hon. Friend once I have clarified that point. I am pleased that the ISA’s secretariat is thinking about the regulations that will be necessary once exploitation begins. The United Kingdom delegation at the authority’s most recent session made clear the importance that we attach to the development of those regulations, which will be an important step for the authority and one in which the United Kingdom is determined to play its full part. There are important environmental issues to be resolved, but there is also a financial issue relating to the amount of any payment to the ISA, to which I have already alluded.
What of British involvement in deep sea mining, which is really what the Bill is about? I am pleased to say that the United Kingdom has now sponsored two applications. The first was approved by the ISA’s council in 2012, and consequently a British company will cover an area of sea bed twice the size of Wales and 4,000 metres deep. Disappointingly, the legal and technical commission did not have time to consider the second application at its sessions last year, but we hope it will approve the application at its session beginning in February, and that the council will approve the application when it meets in July.
Deep sea mining is a very exciting and pioneering industry, and the Government are pleased that the United Kingdom is at the forefront of its development. Last year, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke at an event in London to celebrate the signing of the contract between the United Kingdom’s sponsored contractor, UK Seabed Resources Ltd, and the ISA. Our colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills organised an industry day at which more than 80 British companies participated. British companies have developed expertise and technology through their activities in the North sea, much of which is transferable to deep sea mining. We hope that significant benefits to the British economy will be forthcoming over the next 30 years. We have heard figures of anything up to £40 billion bandied around this morning. In the Government’s view, it is essential that the United Kingdom does not ignore these potential benefits. As I have said—it is also the assessment of the International Seabed Authority—we are at the threshold of a new era of deep sea mining. This new frontier presents a valuable opportunity to contribute to the prosperity of the British people, of British companies, and of the United Kingdom as a whole.
Polymetallic nodules, as I am sure we are all now fully aware, contain a higher concentration of valuable metals—up to 28% more, or 10 times the proportion usually found on land. Many of the metals contained in these sea bed deposits are considered to be valuable “technology metals”, which are increasingly important in high-technology industries that benefit us all, including electronics, clean technologies such as hybrid cars and wind turbines, and the construction and aerospace industries. The strategic importance of this source of minerals and metals should not be underestimated, not least as they contain trace metals such as rare earth elements used in electronics, where it is important that land-based sources should face competition from potential sources on the deep sea bed. Such an amount of previously untapped wealth can create vital jobs for the British economy, not only in deep sea mining but in the supply chain supporting the industry, such as the engineers developing machines to harvest polymetallic nodules in an environmentally sensitive way.
As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science has pointed out, this new industry plays to the UK’s strengths as a world leader in maritime engineering and innovation—which, incidentally, is of increasing importance to us in the south-west, as my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall will be well aware. As I mentioned, last year my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister attended and spoke at an event to welcome the award of an exploration licence to British company UK Seabed Resources, secured with the support of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. There can be no greater demonstration of the Government’s commitment to this rapidly developing industry.
Turning to the Bill, I would first like to emphasise—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The right hon. Gentleman has been speaking for some considerable time now. We have covered everything. We have covered the international authority, prime ministerial speeches and agendas for Government Departments. I would now like him to focus specifically, and briefly, on his comments with regard to the Bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. With respect, the right hon. Gentleman covered that right at the beginning of his speech when he outlined the originating of the 1981 Act, the fact that it was temporary, the fact that it did not need to be temporary now, and the increased interest in deep sea mining. I think we have covered why it is important; we have covered the money and the jobs. The Minister just needs to finish off on the Bill.
Mr Swire
Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. In that case, I will abbreviate my concluding remarks to address a specific point that was raised about Scotland, on which I owe the House an answer.
I am pleased that we were able to reach agreement with the Scottish Government to extend the Bill to Scotland. Amendments to that effect were moved in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, supported by the Committee. This was a very technical change that took some time to sort out, but we got there. As with other British companies, Scottish companies are well placed to take advantage of the opportunities presented by the development of deep sea mining. Many of them have been active in the North sea and can therefore adapt their expertise and the technologies they have developed into the new and exciting world of deep sea mining.
We have enjoyed—at least, I have enjoyed—an informed and productive debate that has demonstrated a real understanding of the economic and strategic importance of this Bill for the United Kingdom, balanced with the need to ensure safeguards for the environment. One of the important issues we have rightly discussed is the environment of the deep sea and the potential impact of mining on the species living on the sea bed. All of us—Governments, parliamentarians and private companies alike—must be conscious of our shared responsibility for the stewardship of the deep sea bed.
I hope I have answered the majority of points raised. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has shown how this issue is an example of the UK leading the way—both in legislation for the awarding of licences and in the support we will give—in an exciting new industry. The industry is expected to be worth up to £40 billion to the British economy over the next 30 years. The United Kingdom is open for business, competing in the global race.
This Bill has been improved by amendments and has been met with general approval from Members throughout the House. I am confident that when future generations look back at what we have done, they will see that we have done everything we can to strike the right balance between protecting the environment and exploiting this valuable resource in support of our country’s prosperity.
I thank all those who have taken an interest in and contributed to the excellent discussions as the Bill has progressed. In particular, I reiterate my warmest congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall on introducing the Bill. I hope the House will join me in supporting the Bill’s Third Reading and wishing it a speedy and successful passage through the other place.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
2. What recent assessment he has made of the UK’s relations with Pakistan; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Our relations with Pakistan remain strong, and we pay tribute to the people of Pakistan in their struggle against recent terrorist violence. Last June, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was the first foreign Head of Government to visit Pakistan after its new Government took office.
Mr Bellingham
Does the Minister agree that Pakistan’s long-term economic future depends not on more aid, but on more trade and, especially, on improved European Union market access? Does he also agree that Pakistan’s recent joining of the generalised system of preferences plus—GSP plus—is excellent news, as it will open up duty-free access to much of the EU market? However, is he confident that Pakistan will sign up to the international conventions on labour and on good governance?
Mr Swire
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. Pakistan’s joining the GSP will drive better governance, as it grants vulnerable countries duty-free access to the EU on two thirds of tariff lines if they implement 27 international conventions on human rights, labour standards, sustainable development and good governance. That is good news for Pakistan and for the EU. Pakistan stands to gain an estimated $500 million and 1 million new jobs from this agreement. It is a sign of a deeper and more effective relationship that benefits both our two countries, given that the UK was at the lead on it.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
23. Many of us are deeply fearful about the chasm between the official Government position in Pakistan on religious freedom for Christians, Hindus and other religious minorities, and the reality on the ground. Has the Minister had any discussions with the Pakistani Government on the vexed and vexatious blasphemy laws?
Mr Swire
As the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson) just said, we raise issues of religious tolerance, particularly in respect of Christian minorities, wherever we go. Baroness Warsi repeatedly raised the issue of religious freedom and minority protections at the highest level during her visit to Pakistan in October 2013, and she referred to the issue in an open letter on 25 December. It is worth saying that she had a frank and open discussion with the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif, in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly in New York in September.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
The principal area of concern for many of my constituents of Pakistani origin is the problem of the disputed area of Kashmir. Will my right hon. Friend explain to the House what the latest position is on encouraging both Pakistan and India to work together to give the people of that disputed region the right to decide their future for themselves?
Mr Swire
I could with your indulgence, Mr Speaker, as I am coming to that question later on this morning. We are heartened by greater communication between India and Pakistan. The lines of communication are now better, but the problems in that region can be solved only by the two Governments of Pakistan and India and the people of Kashmir themselves.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
May I draw the right hon. Gentleman’s attention to the work in Stoke-on-Trent of the Andrhal Welfare Trust, which is licensed in Pakistan and in the UK? It does vital work to ship out educational material and equipment, and information and communications technology equipment. Shipments are being detained for a lengthy time in Karachi, so, in the interests of education, will he examine how the process can be speeded up?
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
3. What recent progress has been made on securing a comprehensive agreement with Iran on its nuclear programme.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
9. What recent reports he has received on human rights violations in the Jammu and Kashmir region.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
We are aware of allegations of human rights abuses on both sides of the line of control. We are clear that allegations of human rights abuses require proper investigation, and we regularly raise concerns through our missions in Islamabad and Delhi, as appropriate.
Gavin Shuker
The number of civilian deaths attributed to the Indian forces is now greater than the number attributed to terrorist attacks in the region. Will the Minister assure me that these issues are being raised not only in our official discussions but at ministerial level, given the number of delegations and trips to India in recent years?
Mr Swire
Indeed. The hon. Gentleman will know that in the past few years India and Pakistan have made progress on trade, with both countries agreeing to double bilateral trade by 2014. India has lifted a ban on direct investment from Pakistan, and both sides have implemented a new visa regime. Ultimately, we want to encourage progress between India and Pakistan. Our position, as is well known, is to allow both sides to decide the pace of dialogue, as any direct involvement or international intervention would not be welcomed—by India, certainly.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware of the petition signed by thousands of my constituents —and, I believe, people in other constituencies —asking for a debate about human rights in Jammu and Kashmir, and can he assist by giving us such a debate in Government time?
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
10. What recent discussions he has had with his Afghan counterpart on security arrangements after 2014; and if he will make a statement.
Ian Lavery
On 4 January, Francisco Toloza, another leading member of the Patriotic March political movement in Colombia, was arrested and charged with the usual accusation of rebellion. Given that 25 of that group’s leading members were murdered last year alone, do the Government still insist that Colombia is a democratic country that allows opposition political participation?
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
The answer is yes, we do. Human rights continue to be an important part of our relationship with Colombia. They were discussed with President Santos during his visit to the UK from 6 June last year. We have never hidden our concerns about human rights in that country. Equally, we are supportive of the mass improvement in the general well-being of Colombians under the president and his negotiations with the FARC guerrillas. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will have an opportunity to raise those matters when he visits Colombia shortly.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T4. Holocaust memorial day takes place next Monday. Will the Secretary of State join me in commending the role that British veterans played in defeating the Nazis in the second world war, and in liberating the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp almost 70 years ago?
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
T5. Further to the case raised by the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) on Colombia, will the Minister address the case of Huber Ballesteros, who will face trial in a number of weeks, also on a contrived charge of rebellion? Will he address these human rights issues in a way that does not just send a signal to the Santos regime that they somehow fall within a margin of tolerable excess in the context of a peace process?
Mr Swire
That is not the case. We are, of course, aware of the detention of Mr Ballesteros on 25 August. Our ambassador to Colombia wrote to the Colombian prosecutor general on 28 August to highlight our interest in the case and to request information on the charges. Staff at our embassy in Bogota are seeking permission to visit Mr Ballesteros in prison. It is simply not the case that we turn to one side and avert our gaze to what we regard as human rights violations in Colombia.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be alarmed, as I was, at the release of documents last week on the attack at the Golden Temple in 1984. The Prime Minister made a swift response in terms of the Cabinet Secretary. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on the timeline for the inquiry and for a possible statement to this House?
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
T8. A number of individuals and charities in my constituency have contacted me about the difficulties they have encountered in funding legitimate humanitarian action in the disputed region of Kashmir. Will the Secretary of State allow a Minister to meet me briefly to discuss these concerns?
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on what is happening to his constituent, my constituent and others arrested from a vessel off Tamil Nadu? Can anything more be done to expedite their release? Given that they were only obeying orders, should it not be the captain who faces the charges, and should these men not be freed?
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister on his next visit to Burma to raise the letter that Mr Speaker has written to Minister Soe Thein with a list of political prisoners and to ask for their unconditional release?
Mr Speaker
I genuinely apologise to colleagues whom I was not able to call, but we did proceed relatively slowly today, which did not greatly assist matters. However, this is a box-office occasion and I shall try to bear in mind those who were not able to contribute today for subsequent occasions.
Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region of Iraq
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this debate. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), would have been delighted to respond, but he is travelling on ministerial duties. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) referred to me as the new Minister and this was compounded by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) doing so. I have been Minister of State in the Foreign Office since September 2012, but this part of the world is not my responsibility particularly, which is why there may have been some confusion. It is none the less my pleasure to respond on the Government’s behalf.
The knowledge and insight with which hon. Members have spoken today says much about the strength of our relations with Iraqi Kurdistan, the reasons for which and the significant advantages it brings I will come on to discuss. I pay tribute to hon. and right hon. Members from all parties—and in both Houses—for their work over many years to build relations with the Kurdistan region, not least to the great efforts made by the all-party group.
The hon. Member for Wrexham said that it was up to hon. Members to familiarise themselves with the region. I have not had the advantage of travelling to the region, but having done extensive research for today’s debate, including reading the previous, extraordinarily distinguished debate in the House, I should love to go there and see it for myself—and perhaps even have a similar haircut to the hon. Member for Wrexham, not that the creator of his hairstyle will receive an MBE any time soon. You never know.
APG members have observed great changes—because there have been great changes—in Iraqi Kurdistan, including in its relationship with the UK, and they have made a significant contribution to realising them, which I acknowledge and for which I thank them. It does our Parliament great credit and their efforts do not go unrecognised. We welcome the group’s latest report, which is launched today.
The links between Britain and Iraqi Kurdistan are historic and deep, as we have heard. The recent strength of those links is founded in no small measure on our country’s role in establishing the no-fly zone in 1991, which helped to protect the population from Saddam’s murderous threat. The region is now a stable and prosperous area within a volatile region. I will return to that point, but first I shall say a little more about opportunities to strengthen our relations further, echoing many comments made hon. and right hon. Members.
The people of Iraqi Kurdistan and its Regional Government are ambitious, and opportunities in the region are, as we have heard, striking. Its economy continues to grow impressively. More companies from Britain than from any other EU country are registered in the region and we hope more will follow. British companies are helping to realise its potential in the energy sector. In recent months, two major trade missions have visited the region, led by my noble Friend Lord Marland and by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne respectively.
We recently welcomed the first inward investment mission from the region to London and another will follow this month. As ever, these links benefit from the contribution of the Kurdish community resident in the UK, which now numbers many thousands, and the Kurdistan Regional Government representation here in London.
We have only just begun to realise the commercial potential for the UK and the Kurdistan region, and we cannot take success for granted. That is why we have increased staffing at our consulate general in Erbil and will move to a new permanent building, which, I am glad to report to my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), we plan to open in the second half of 2015.
We continue to look for new opportunities in the region. UK Trade and Investment worked with the London office of the Kurdistan Regional Government to host a conference in July 2013 dedicated to tourism in the region. We continue to build strong links in higher education. On her recent trip, Baroness Nicholson took representatives from a range of UK universities to that part of the world.
Some 1,600 postgraduate students came to the UK last year, supported by the Kurdistan Regional Government. As Minister responsible for the Chevening scholarship programme, I am delighted that one of its scholars, Minister Falah Mustafa, is now the head of the Kurdistan Regional Government’s Department of Foreign Relations and recently met my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent.
Recognising the relative safety and security of this region, our travel advice makes a distinction from the rest of Iraq. We are one of the few countries that do not advise against travel to the Kurdistan region. We have also taken steps to make it easier to obtain a UK visa. During his visit in September last year, my noble Friend Lord Marland opened a visa application centre in Erbil, so that applicants no longer have to travel to Baghdad or outside Iraq to submit their applications, although I accept that it is still relatively expensive to submit applications.
Hon. Members spoke about direct flights. I have ever more calls for direct flights around the world, particularly with my responsibilities in Latin and central America; everybody wants direct flights to the UK, and the Kurdistan region is no exception. We share the ambition to see direct flights between London and Erbil and other destinations in Iraq. That requires work to satisfy our security assessments, but I am pleased to say that officials from the Department for Transport visited Erbil in November and we are making good progress with the authorities. It is our hope that Erbil airport, designed by a British architect, will welcome British carriers in the near future.
As I have noted, the security situation in Iraqi Kurdistan compares favourably with much of Iraq and the wider region, but it is not immune from threats. We recognise the ongoing bravery of the security forces who counter the threats of terrorism, and pay tribute to those who lost their life in September in that deplorable act of terrorism in Erbil—thankfully, the first such atrocity for several years. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) rightly spoke about the complex situation in the region regarding refugees.
Mr Swire
If the hon. Lady will allow me, I am about to address the points that she made.
The hon. Lady asked what the British Government were doing for the refugees. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow also commented on that. As a result of the horrors in Syria, Syrian refugees continue to flee across the border. I pay tribute to the Kurdish and federal Iraqi authorities, and to the people of the region, for their support to the many people whose lives have been threatened and who have been left displaced and dispossessed. The Department for International Development has given £14.2 million to international efforts supporting Syrian refugees in the Kurdistan region. The UK will make a major contribution to the new UN appeal for Syria at the pledging conference being held today in Kuwait, and we urge other countries to be equally generous. We also welcome the efforts of the leadership of the Kurdistan Regional Government to encourage Syrian Kurdish groups to agree on participation in Geneva II.
The hon. Member for Wrexham asked specifically about allowing in refugees from that part of the world. He will know that there has been a lively debate about asylum for Syrian refugees, and I will not change the established Government position. I remind him of our major commitment to alleviating suffering in that part of the world. The UK is right at the forefront of this. Following the pledging conference in Kuwait, I am sure that we will maintain that position.
Meg Munn
I want to ask about security, because the Minister moved on a little bit too quickly, hence my agitation at that point. When we visited in November, the Interior Minister responsible for security spoke to us about his difficulty in getting support for help and advice about non-lethal security measures. I should like to press the Minister, if not now then perhaps later, to say what more we could do to help with a difficult security situation and to help a Government who are working hard to keep the region safe and who are successful for most of the time.
Mr Swire
I hear what the hon. Lady says, and she and other hon. Members will be aware that sales of non-lethal equipment may be subject to the UK’s export licensing controls. Applications for export licences are considered on a case-by-case basis against the criteria, taking into account the circumstances at the time.
Following on from what the hon. Lady says, Iraqi Kurds have a vital role in the stability of Iraq, where terrorist violence claimed nearly 9,000 lives in 2013. We are extremely concerned about the current violence in Anbar province in western Iraq. This Government will stand alongside the Iraqi Government in combating that threat and other terrorist threats across the region. We have made it clear that addressing the threat of terrorism requires support from the local community and an inclusive political process for all Iraqis. We urge Iraqi Kurds to play a full part in Iraq’s democratic future, ensuring that federal elections take place in April on time, fairly and freely. We also hope that overdue provincial elections for the Kurdish region will be held at that time.
We welcome the efforts in 2013 to improve relations between Erbil and Baghdad, including reciprocal visits, which were asked for by a number of hon. Members, by President Barzani and Prime Minister Maliki. We urge both sides to find agreement on how to administer the country’s energy resources and on how to share oil export revenues, and to finalise the 2014 federal budget. Resolving those issues is vital to unlocking much needed investment throughout Iraq. We also hope that a new Kurdistan Regional Government will continue to make progress on human rights in the region. The recent murder of a journalist was a brutal reminder that journalists continue to be targeted, and we call on authorities to bring those responsible to justice.
The hon. Member for Cheltenham raised the murder of Kawa Germyani, about which we have expressed serious concern. He was the editor-in-chief of Rayal magazine and a correspondent for the Sulaymaniyah-based Awena newspaper. He was assassinated outside his home in Kalar on 5 December, which is a brutal reminder that journalists in the region continue to be targeted for reasons related to their work. It is important that the KRG honour their commitment to investigate the attack and to bring those responsible to justice.
The people of the region know only too well the horror of violence and abuse, having suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein. Members have spoken eloquently today and in the past about the Anfal campaign against Iraq’s Kurds. I am pleased to hear that my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) has accepted the vice-chairmanship of the all-party group, and our debate on the subject in February 2013 is an example of the House at its best. As he noted on that occasion, the Government have a long-standing position of following a legal process to ascertain whether such atrocities should be designated as an act of genocide, but I reiterate our sympathy for the victims of the Anfal and confirm that we will work with the Kurdistan Regional Government and representatives here on how we can mark Anfal day on 14 April in an appropriate way.
Robert Halfon
Will my right hon. Friend do what he can to ensure that the British Government do everything that they can to bring to justice the perpetrators of the genocide if they are living in Europe? Will he do the same for the companies that supplied the chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein? Fortunately, the companies are not British; they are from other parts of Europe.
Mr Swire
Indeed, we should and will do everything we can to bring to justice perpetrators of any atrocities anywhere in the world, and the companies that have been supplying them illegally. That is what we do as a Government, and we will certainly continue to do so. Reflecting on those past tragedies only emphasises the progress made by Iraqi Kurdistan. We urge Iraqi Kurds to use the example of their history and progress to become a voice of moderation in Iraq and to show what they have done to address discrimination, to protect minorities and to rejuvenate their economy.
In the closing moments I will address the other questions that have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon is a fantastic example of someone from that part of the world. He said that he is the first British Member of Parliament of Kurd ancestry, which is a remarkable achievement. There is a lot more he can do, and I would not be surprised if there were some wonderful opportunities for Erbil in Stratford-on-Avon. If we can export “War Horse,” the Michael Morpurgo play, to China, I am sure he can probably export “Wolf Hall” to Erbil. “Wolf Hall” is a play that runs for eight hours and is on in Stratford-on-Avon as we speak, and I know that my hon. Friend is experiencing considerable difficulty in obtaining tickets.
The hon. Members for Cheltenham and for Wrexham talked about women’s rights, particularly in relation to FGM. Since I have been in the House we have not done enough about FGM, which is one of the most abhorrent, despicable things to happen to women, and the thought that it still continues in the UK is absolutely unacceptable.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Minister is addressing an important topic. Does he agree that we need to send out a clear message not just in the region but across the developing world that the practice of female genital mutilation is totally and utterly unacceptable to try to move those societies away from such a barbaric practice?
Mr Swire
Yes, I absolutely do. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the Foreign Secretary’s wider initiative to prevent sexual violence in conflict, particularly against women. FGM is different, and there is a big initiative in the House, not before time. We have continued to fund various projects run by the Westminster Foundation for Democracy to increase participation by female parliamentarians in the Kurdistan Parliament. We continue to support efforts to improve the position of women in Iraqi society, and we are working closely with the UN, the EU and other international partners, but he is right. I find the practice of FGM absolutely abhorrent wherever it is perpetrated. It seems to me to be an ultimate act of violence against very young women and girls who have no choice, and we should continue to be strong wherever in the world we find the practice.
I do not run the Foreign Secretary’s diary, but I am certain that he will have noted the point on high-level visits. The then Minister with responsibility for the middle east, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, visited Erbil in February 2013, and Lord Marland has also visited. Various hon. Members called for more ministerial visits and trade missions—yes, absolutely. I would point out that Ministers under this Government are travelling much more than ever before, and that part of the world should certainly be on their agenda. I welcome the idea that we should invite President Barzani to the UK, and we will factor that in. We heard from the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) about President Barzani’s visit to Northern Ireland at the invitation of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in February 2013 and the signing of the memorandum of understanding, which was a very successful trip.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley asked about a UK trade envoy for Iraqi Kurdistan, which is probably under consideration. Such appointments are made by No. 10, which is aware of the opportunities in Iraqi Kurdistan. We have spoken about visas, Anfal and flights. This is one of those remarkable occasions on which I have addressed every single question raised by hon. Members. This debate has been entirely consensual. There is no party political divide, and we agree that the work of the all-party group has been superb and continues to be so. We agree that we need to do much more in the area on education, cultural links and business opportunities. We need to do a lot to remind the world of the horrendous suffering of the Iraqi Kurds, and we need to do more to raise awareness and to alleviate the suffering of many refugees from Syria. The extraordinarily complicated mix in the area is the fallout from what is going on in Syria. On human rights, we need to ensure the safety and freedom of journalists. We want free and fair elections. We want good relations with all the disparate parts of Iraq, and we want to end barbaric practices such as female genital mutilation. We are in a good place and we are doing a lot, but we can always do a lot more. With such an active all-party group, we are in a pretty good place.
Access to Justice (British Citizens Abroad)
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Let me say at the outset that both the hon. Ladies who have spoken have taken exactly the right approach in representing their constituents. If I were in their position, I would do the same. That is what MPs are there for. The two hon. Ladies may be representing different sides of the argument—one represents the accused and one represents the person against whom the crime was perpetrated—but they are both absolutely within their rights to come to the House to raise these issues on behalf of their constituents.
We must manage expectations. I do not agree with the view that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is not doing enough. I will expand on that in the following minutes. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for securing a debate on this important issue.
I will deal straight away with the points that were made by the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). It is worth saying at the outset that the case is now at the judicial investigation stage, which means that the police have handed it to the courts, which will now decide whether further investigation is required or whether they have enough evidence to proceed. In Greece, that can be a very long process, and we are doing all we can to ensure that Ms Matthews and others have as much information as possible. It is also worth pointing out that all the men involved in the incident and their families are receiving consular assistance. We repeatedly advise them, however, to speak to their lawyers about anything of a legal nature. We met three of the families in particular at their request, and we offered to meet Ms Matthews at any time.
Providing assistance to British nationals who are the victims of serious crimes overseas and their next of kin is a core priority for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. To put the matter into context, in 2012 alone, FCO staff dealt with more than 1 million consular inquiries and 100,000 consular cases and provided consular assistance to more than 20,000 people as they endured the trauma of being a victim of crime with the additional challenge of being in an unfamiliar country whose language, culture and judicial systems can be very different from ours.
We can and do provide support, experience and assistance and put those in need in contact with charities and other organisations, several of which we help to fund. We can and do also use our diplomatic network to put pressure on foreign Governments to make changes or improvements to their processes. We are committed to delivering support of the highest standards and, as our consular strategy makes plain, to improving continually our service and offering the most vulnerable the greatest level of support.
However, in such circumstances there are also clear limitations to what we can do—this is where we come back to the management of expectation. For instance, we cannot become involved in the competent judicial process of another country or ask the taxpayer to fund legal cases in foreign courts. I know that the hon. Member for Walthamstow has been deeply concerned about the case of Tyrell Matthews-Burton, who was tragically killed in Crete last year. I, too, would like to take this opportunity to extend my deepest sympathies to Tyrell’s mother, Ms Matthews.
From the moment we were informed of Tyrell’s death, officials have provided extensive support to Ms Matthews. In the immediate aftermath, consular staff in Crete spent time at the police station, hospital and court to offer support. The hon. Lady shakes her head in disagreement, but I am stating the chronology of what happened. It might not have been enough, but it is what actually happened in the aftermath.
In London, teams were in daily contact with the families of those involved to provide assistance and referrals to organisations such as Victim Support. Ms Matthews was assigned a caseworker and quickly issued with a passport, and with the support of one of the charities that the FCO helps to fund, Missing Abroad, flights to Crete and accommodation were arranged at no cost to the family. We have continued to provide full support to Ms Matthews, from repatriating Tyrell’s body to liaising with Her Majesty’s coroner following Ms Matthews’s request to see the post mortem report.
One of the greatest challenges for victims of crime at home and abroad is gaining access to information. Of course, in the case of crimes committed overseas, geographic distance, language and procedure are all added barriers. I know that a lack of information can lead to extreme frustration, compound anxiety and result in a loss of confidence in the judicial process of the country involved. That is entirely understandable. We therefore do what we can to get updates as soon as possible as well as providing guidance on local systems and procedures. In Tyrell’s case, consular staff were on hand from the outset to help liaise with the authorities and provide a range of important information explaining the local police and legal systems and giving details of local lawyers and interpreters. Consular officials at the British embassy in Athens have also lobbied for information the Greek Ministries of Foreign Affairs and of Justice, as well as the Greek police and judiciary, and have attended some initial meetings. We stand ready to continue to do that as the family navigates the local system, and to attend the first day and verdict of any future trial.
Systems overseas are often different from our own, and unlike in the UK, it may not be possible for individuals to obtain information directly. Investigating authorities and courts may refuse to answer inquiries from third parties, including foreign Governments or consular officials. For those reasons, we always advise victims of crime overseas to instruct a local lawyer who can access detailed information on their client’s behalf, and judge whether an investigation is conducted in line with local laws. From the outset, we and the Greek authorities have recommended that Ms Matthews obtain legal representation.
I understand, of course, that appointing a lawyer can put a huge financial burden on a family—something to which the hon. Member for Walthamstow alluded. However, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office cannot fund legal representation. We are simply not resourced to offer such funding, and in the case of Ms Matthews we have done all we can to explore alternative legal aid options in the United Kingdom and Greece, including offering advice on the EU compensation scheme. Following the meeting between the hon. Lady, Ms Matthews, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, I am pleased that work to identify a lawyer and funding from Victim Support has enabled Ms Matthews to appoint a Greek lawyer.
I also wish to address the concerns raised by the hon. Lady that the UK police could do more, and that a senior investigating officer and family liaison officer were not appointed at the outset. In 2012 the British Government agreed a memorandum of understanding with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Coroners’ Society of England and Wales regarding support in murder/manslaughter cases. It sets out Government support to the next of kin, including what we can do to ensure a proper and thorough investigation. The MOU is clear that the UK police cannot investigate a crime overseas unless invited by a foreign Government to do so. Even in cases where a suspect is British, the jurisdiction of the country where the crime took place takes precedence.
The UK police get involved only exceptionally where there is a genuine operational need, such as securing forensic samples or conducting formal inquiries on behalf of foreign police in the UK, and that was not the case following Tyrell’s death. It is an operational decision for the police whether to appoint a senior investigating officer or family liaison officer. In this case, the police initially decided to identify an officer as the single point of contact. Following the intervention of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Greek police assigned an individual to liaise with the Met police and, as a result, a senior investigating officer and family liaison officer were duly appointed. However, as the investigation in Greece has been completed and the file now lies with the judicial authorities, as I said at the outset of my remarks, there is little information to be shared through that channel.
The British Government cannot interfere in trials or legal processes in other countries. We would not accept other countries doing that in the UK, and we therefore need to respect their systems. In some circumstances, however, we will continue to make representations to local authorities where appropriate. That includes cases where there are concerns that the investigation is not being carried out in line with local procedures. We stand ready to do that in this case should the need arise. Meanwhile, we will continue to raise the case more generally through normal diplomatic channels.
The British ambassador to Greece first raised Tyrell’s death with the mayor of Malia and the chief of police last summer, and as the hon. Member for Walthamstow knows, we are facilitating a meeting between her and the Greek ambassador to London in the near future, to discuss the case and the issues it raises.
We have a consular service that many countries envy and of which we are rightly proud. However, we cannot always meet every need and expectation. Of course we want to improve; we seek to learn from every case, and continually review our consular policy, guidance to staff and training.
Stella Creasy
I thank the Minister for intervening and I am pleased that the Foreign Office will be assisting my office in arranging a meeting with the Greek authorities. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office had specifically told my office that that was for me to organise, so I am pleased that there has been a change of mind. May I press him on the point about the EU framework on the decision on the rights of victims of crime, which has been fully in force since 2006? I appreciate that the way in which it applies in the UK with regard to the Greek authorities’ behaviour towards the Matthews family is a technical point of EU law. However, can he and his officials give me an assurance on that specific point? Will he clarify that the conduct of the Foreign Office in the matter—it failed to ensure that Ms Matthews had legal representation in that trial—is in accordance with that legislation, which our nation has ratified?
Mr Swire
Let me say two things to the hon. Lady. First, we have done everything we can, and continue to do everything we can, in compliance with every international obligation. I have tried to articulate that in what I have said in the past 10 or 15 minutes. Secondly, to answer her other question, it is my understanding that the Foreign Office has arranged access to the Greek ambassador in London. Indeed, the consular department of the Foreign Office intends to accompany her to the meeting. I hope she is reassured on that point.
As I have said, we do not imagine that we get it right the whole time. I have tried to contextualise the matter and to explain to the House not only the complexity but the size of the issue. We are always asked to fund things that we simply are not funded for. No party in government or opposition plans to change the policy—if any party did, it would be a significant change and one we should be aware of. We do everything we can within the existing guidelines, but, as I have said, we do not always get things right. We want to improve and learn from experience; we are human. In this case, we are doing everything we can.
As I have said, we continually review our consular policy, our guidance to staff and our training. As part of that, in 2014 we will evaluate the impact of the memorandum of understanding on murder/manslaughter and our internal guidance to consular staff on helping next of kin. We are making changes to our services so that they focus more effectively on the needs of British nationals. That will include better and clearer information —information is key—on local services such as lawyers and legal aid.
We are currently exploring what more we can do to build on the legal guides that Fair Trials International has developed—it has done so with Foreign and Commonwealth Office funding. For instance, we are working with Justice Across Borders and identifying pro bono legal advice providers for victims of crime overseas. That is part of a strategy to establish more partnerships with specialist organisations, which goes alongside increasing funding for those with which we already work. Finally, we have introduced flexibility in our policy on our staff translating and interpreting when British nationals need to talk to local authorities.
Therefore, after three and a half years, the Government are seizing the issue and dealing with it in a more realistic way than has perhaps been the case in the past. If the hon. Lady has any concerns, I would be more than happy for her to come to me or for her to see the Under-Secretary of State. I have come to the case fresh—I read the reports at the time, but it has not been on my desk for a long time—and have gone through it with officials in some detail today. I have a fresh set of eyes. Of course, I do not share the hon. Lady’s views—I do not represent her constituent, and I would probably have a different view if I did so—but I am convinced that we are doing everything we can. In fact, I believe we have done more than can be expected in offering to fix up a meeting between her and the Greek ambassador.
We face many challenges as we try to help victims to get justice overseas. Cases can be complex and move slowly through foreign legal systems that British nationals find hard to understand. British MPs can find them hard to understand or will not understand them. Our remit does not extend to foreign countries. Things often do not work abroad in the way we would expect them to work here. Translating what happens here to systems abroad serves no purpose because we cannot change those systems. We must operate within them.
Stella Creasy
I thank the Minister for letting me intervene. I will try one more time. I would be ever so grateful if he could clarify, in writing, that he believes that in this matter the current Government have met their obligations under EU law on victims of crime and their treatment. I appreciate that he believes what he has been told by officials. I invite him to meet the families to understand the other side of the story about what has happened. On the particular point about access to justice and the requirements under that legislation, will he give a commitment to the House to investigate the legal ramifications of the failure of this Government to ensure legal representation for the Matthews family in the trial?
Mr Swire
There has been no failure by this Government on any point. I entirely refute that and it is not helpful for the hon. Lady to suggest that when we are doing everything we can for the hon. Lady’s constituent. However, I will certainly ensure in writing, if I have not made myself clear verbally, that our position remains clear: we are absolutely certain that we have followed the existing guidelines in every single way—in fact, more so.
I concede that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office may not always meet the full expectations of victims and their families. Indeed, it would be impossible for us to do so, because expectations exceed capability and that would be the same however much resource we threw at this problem. That makes it even more important to have under constant consideration what we can offer, and to find new ways to provide it.
I respect the hon. Lady’s position in bringing this matter to the House, but she is a Member of Parliament and she has to respect what all parties are signed up to. If she feels in any way that the Government have been derelict in their duties towards her constituent she is right to raise that, but I have heard nothing tonight to suggest that that is the case. On whether the Government have been compliant with existing laws, I will ensure that she is written to, to explain that to her. In the meantime, we must all await what happens in Greece. She will be in a good position when, with the assistance of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, she meets the Greek ambassador shortly.
Question put and agreed to.
North Korea
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on North Korea following the execution of Jang Sung-taek.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this issue to the House’s attention and commend her for her tireless work as vice-chair of the all-party group on North Korea.
We are deeply concerned to learn of the execution of Jang Sung-taek. It is yet another example of the horrifying and surreal brutality of the North Korean regime, which presides over what Carl Bildt, the Swedish Foreign Minister, has called an “empire of horror”. We remain deeply concerned about the impact of that unpredictable regime on regional stability.
Jang Sung-taek’s execution and the reports of executions of people associated with him reinforce our significant concerns about North Korea’s appalling human rights record, which we assess to be one of the worst, if not the worst, in the world. The United Kingdom has consistently raised concerns about the severe and systematic human rights violations carried out by the North Korean Government, including reports of executions; the lack of any sort of basic judicial process; the severe curtailment of all freedoms, including freedom of thought, movement and religion; the systematic use of torture; and the horrific stories emanating from the gulags.
The United Kingdom has been at the forefront of raising those concerns in international forums. This year we co-sponsored two human rights resolutions in the United Nations. We also supported the introduction of a UN commission of inquiry, which will report to the Human Rights Council in March 2014. In October, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office sponsored a visit to the UK by the inquiry panel. The panel heard harrowing accounts from North Korean refugees about systematic abuses of even the most basic human rights. I met the panel and confirmed the United Kingdom’s full and unequivocal support for its work. I am pleased that parliamentarians had the opportunity to meet the panel and discuss its work.
Given the opaque nature of the North Korean leadership, the implications of Jang’s execution remain unclear. Our embassy in Pyongyang reports that the situation on the ground is currently calm. We will continue to monitor the situation closely, not least during the anniversary of Kim Jong-il’s death tomorrow. We are alert to the possibility that the regime may use that as an opportunity to bolster public support for its leader.
It remains to be seen whether the execution will strengthen Kim Jong-un’s power or whether it indicates political instability and a struggle for power. We are in close contact with the United States and the Republic of Korea, and we will speak to other members of the six-party talks in the coming days.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the Minister for that reply. As he said, Jang Sung-taek’s execution was just the most high-profile of many. For some six decades, the North Korean people have suffered intolerably. People are incarcerated merely for their beliefs, or for speaking a few words that the leadership objects to. Children are treated as prisoners from birth, and those who try to escape the regime risk not only imprisonment or worse for themselves but punishment for up to three generations of their family. An incalculable number of North Koreans have been, and continue to be, worked to death, frozen to death, burned to death, gassed to death or tortured in the most unimaginable ways. In short, the North Korean people are the most persecuted on earth.
Just because this terrible situation has persisted for so long—over three generations—cannot be a reason for the international community not to address it as a priority. Millions live at or near starvation while international charities say that food aid, if accompanied—and there are the means—will reach them. What more will our Government do to help them through the Department for International Development and otherwise? Food should never be used as a weapon of war.
Given that a major weapon in ending Stalin’s reign of terror was the role that this country played by broadcasting the BBC World Service and breaking the Soviet information blockade—the same has been done more recently with the Burmese information blockade—and given the Foreign Secretary’s role in setting the World Service’s strategic objectives, will the Minister consider extending the BBC World Service to the Korean peninsula?
Having read Amnesty’s recent report on the expansion of North Korean prison camps, which are incarcerating some 300,000 people, and following the recent spate of executions—including that of Jang Sung-taek—the show trials, force-fed propaganda, and an ideology that has starved 2 million to death, and bearing in mind that the UK is now home to the largest number of North Korean refugees outside South Korea, should we not do all in our power, both as a country and as a leader in the international community, to help end North Korea’s reign of terror?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend’s almost fantastical description of North Korea is, alas, not fantastical but only too true. To call it an Orwellian nightmare would be a cliché and would not give a clear enough indication of the horrors vested on the people of that country by its leaders.
I think the United Kingdom is playing an important part. My hon. Friend will be aware that we fully support the United Nations Human Rights Council agreement to establish a commission of inquiry. That was a unanimous vote—which is unusual on such issues—and was proposed in a resolution presented by the EU and Japan, and co-sponsored by more than 40 countries. As my hon. Friend knows, that commission will look at all those issues, particularly the prison camps as well as other matters such as human rights abuses, and report back in March 2014.
My hon. Friend asked about food aid to North Korea, which is understandable given the reports emanating from that country about food shortages. There are even some alarmist reports about how people are going about eating, which, again, are too horrific to recount. The United Kingdom does not currently have a bilateral development programme in North Korea, and neither do we provide money to international organisations specifically for use in North Korea. However, some non-earmarked funds that we provide to organisations such as the World Food Programme may be used for humanitarian programmes in that country. Our embassy in Pyongyang uses some of its bilateral funding for small-scale humanitarian programmes such as nutrition for nursing mothers and greenhouses for children’s homes, although that remains under regular review.
My hon. Friend also asked about the ongoing issue of the BBC and broadcasting to North Korea, which I know is something that the North Korea all-party group has discussed and a matter that Lord Alton of Liverpool has been pushing hard. The BBC has been in touch with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about the issue—or vice-versa, I should say. It is primarily an issue for the BBC, which has, of course, full editorial, operational and managerial independence. We understand that it is not currently persuaded that a Korean language service would be an effective value-for-money use of available resources. Nevertheless, our embassy in Pyongyang is working with BBC Worldwide on an initiative to broadcast BBC drama, nature and science programmes on North Korean television. We believe that that has the potential to expose significant numbers of North Koreans to aspects of the outside world from which they are normally totally isolated.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his response and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) for raising this issue. The House is united in its condemnation of the North Korean regime, and we share the view of the Foreign Office that this execution is another shocking illustration of the brutality of the North Korean leadership. We also echo concerns about the shocking levels of hunger and poverty in North Korea, as well as the many human rights abuses.
It seems likely that the execution was intended as a show of strength by Kim Jong-un, and to the wider world it has also been taken as an indication of his insecurity and volatility. It comes after a year that has seen an even more provocative and unpredictable stance from Pyongyang, including nuclear threats to the USA, and the declaration of a state of war with South Korea. Recent satellite images published by Amnesty International indicate that the largest prison camps are continuing to expand. The international community responded calmly and—crucially—with a united front to attempts to escalate tensions earlier this year, and it is important that that consensus continues.
Given that an urgent question has been granted today, the House must turn its attention to what can be done in the immediate future to try to address the situation. Have the Government made any assessment of the possible implications of the execution for the North Korean leadership and the wider region? The Minister mentioned that discussions have already taken place with the USA and the Republic of Korea, but have any conversations been held yet with Chinese officials, or will that happen in the near future? It has been reported that Jang Sung-taek had been building trade links with China, prompting some speculation about a change in economic policy. What is the Minister’s assessment of such reports, and of the nature of North Korea’s current relationship with China? I was in the Republic of Korea earlier this year, and my understanding is that the relationship is under some strain. Was North Korea discussed during the Prime Minister’s recent visit to China?
More generally, can the Minister elaborate on what influence he thinks China can potentially exercise? Given that both the United Kingdom and China were recently elected to the United Nations Human Rights Council, what action does he think the council can take, and, most crucially, what prospect does he envisage of any response at all from North Korea? As he said, the UN commission of inquiry on human rights in North Korea is due to report in March. Will he tell us what recommendations the Government would like it to make?
Given the unanimous support for UN security resolutions, which has already been mentioned, will the Minister be taking the matter up with the UN Security Council, and what does he think could be achieved by his doing so?
Mr Swire
I thank the hon. Lady for the spirit of consensus in which she framed her questions. We are clearly very much on the same page.
The hon. Lady made an assertion about the implications of, or the reasons for, the execution. I must pause to think about that. There is a total lack of clarity in regard to what the execution was about, and an equal lack of clarity in regard to the implications for what will happen next. I have read a number of reports this morning, and each of them is speculative, so the answer is ‘we do not know.’ Whether we will ever know is also a legitimate question, but as things stand, we simply do not know.
The hon. Lady asked whether the Prime Minister had raised the matter in China during our recent visit. The answer is yes, and, as she would imagine, it was also raised during the visit of President Park of the Republic of Korea during her recent state visit. The hon. Lady asked what more China could do. China has a 900-mile border with North Korea, it has a very real and present interest in North Korea, and we believe that it has a key role to play in the country’s future. She also asked what kind of relationship the current North Korean regime had with China. Again, we simply do not know, because we do not understand the thinking behind the leadership as it stands.
The hon. Lady asked what the British Government would like from the commission of inquiry. The commission will report to the United Nations in March 2014, and, as she will understand, it would be inappropriate for us to comment on the recommendations before we have seen the full report. I believe that the unanimity shown by the United Nations Human Rights Council and its reporting will be extremely important in respect of what we do next. We would like the six-party talks to resume as soon as possible, but at this stage I cannot envisage their resuming until we see some sort of gesture of good will from the regime in Pyongyang. Such a gesture would be more than welcome; at present, as the hon. Lady and the House will know, such a gesture is very much absent.
Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
Given that the United Kingdom remains a member of the armistice commission which was established at the end of the Korean war, can my right hon. Friend give an unequivocal assurance that, in the event of further military provocations from the north and a military response from the south, the United Kingdom Government will use their position as a member of the commission to do their utmost to ensure that military action by both sides does not escalate out of control?
Mr Swire
My right hon. Friend talks about a military response. We are doing everything in our power to avoid any regional instability or military response by any side in the region. There are several worrying areas in that part of the world, and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is contributing to the general instability. We work closely with our partners in the six-party talks and liaise closely with both the Republic of Korea and our American allies, and we shall continue to do that.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Will the Minister have slightly more robust conversations with the BBC, encourage it to look at the issue of transmitters into North Korea and point out to it that BBC documentaries and drama, however entertaining they may be, are not really the answer? What is needed is the World Service and access.
Mr Swire
The hon. Lady will no doubt be aware that we have these discussions with the BBC. As I say, my noble Friend Lord Alton of Liverpool has been leading on this, and the BBC has taken a view and is communicating it to him. There are reasons to do it and there are reasons not to do it, but at the end of the day, the BBC has the independence to decide where and to whom to broadcast.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I share the expressions of distaste, even disgust, that we have heard, but I wonder if I might be forgiven for saying that we have to keep some sense of realism. Is not the truth that for the foreseeable future the best we can hope for is to pursue successfully a policy of containment and deterrence?
Mr Swire
My right hon. and learned Friend, who speaks with considerable wisdom, is entirely right. Yes, containment is important, but equally we want the DPRK to halt its programme to develop nuclear capability in violation of every known international agreement. That is what this is about. We do not want North Korea to become a nuclear state. We cannot act unilaterally to prevent it, but we can act together with our partners in the six-party talks.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I share the Minister’s horror at the execution last week and I condemn the death penalty in any circumstances anywhere, but it has served to highlight the abuse of human rights throughout North Korea. Have the six-party talks at any stage included a discussion about human rights? When they are resumed, will he ensure that human rights are brought into the equation?
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to start breaking down barriers in North Korea is through contact with the outside world? Will he use his position therefore to encourage contacts with South Korea in Kaesong? Furthermore, will he encourage the BBC to consider broadcasting into North Korea—it would be not a cost-effective, but a diplomatic decision—and encourage maximum contact with China through trade?
Mr Swire
Yes to the last point. I have just accompanied the Prime Minister to China on the largest ever prime ministerial-led trade delegation anywhere—it included more than 150 companies—so UK-Chinese bilateral trade is incredibly important. I believe that I have addressed the BBC issue. On my hon. Friend’s other point, I would say: that is why we have an embassy in Pyongyang. Some people say, “If you can’t penetrate the mind of the regime, why have an embassy in Pyongyang?” He has answered that question: a chink of light is better than no light at all. The fact that we have a diplomatic presence in North Korea is welcomed by Seoul and Washington, with whom we work closely on these matters. It is important that whenever we see a chink of light, we try to widen it to expose to the people of North Korea that there is a better world out there. I do not believe that the regime can keep them downtrodden forever.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister lay out his thinking about the parallel process of the six-party talks and the other avenues the Foreign Office is pursuing in trying to resolve this issue?
Mr Swire
The correct place to resume negotiations is through the six-party talks. That is key. It brings in all the interested parties in the region and, obviously, the United States. Without those talks, I do not believe that sufficient progress could be made, and as I said earlier I do not think it is possible for those talks to resume without a gesture from the North Koreans, but obviously that gesture is sadly lacking.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Given that we already send food aid to some pretty unpalatable regimes around the world, could we ask the Department for International Development to look again at the issue of North Korea?
Mr Swire
I have already said that the situation is currently under review, and I will certainly raise it again with colleagues in DFID. I think there are reasons why we do not give food aid to North Korea, not least because of the great difficulty of ensuring that it ended up in the right place. I will make a commitment to my hon. Friend, who takes a keen interest in these matters—and rightly so—that I will speak to my DFID colleagues on the issue he raised and I will get back to him.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
It is difficult to envisage any people anywhere in the world who would not benefit more greatly from the BBC World Service than the people of North Korea. The Minister said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) that there were reasons why the BBC had decided not to broadcast into North Korea. Will he now share those reasons with us?
Mr Swire
The BBC takes a view about where its resources are best employed and about how people can best access its broadcasting abilities. At the end of the day, whatever representations we make to the BBC, it quite properly makes the final decision on where it wants to broadcast. That is how the BBC is enshrined in charter, and it is how it should remain.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Do not recent events in North Korea demonstrate the need for a clear, continuous and candid dialogue between the Foreign Office and the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Prime Minister’s recent visit to China was extremely welcome in thickening and deepening the UK’s relations with that country?
Mr Swire
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was encouraged by the levels of access that the Prime Minister and his ministerial team were granted by the Chinese authorities. Political and diplomatic relations are now good, while bilateral trade is, of course, extremely good and inward investment is good. It is critical, as my right hon. Friend says, that China continues to play a lead role in trying to resolve what has been for many decades now an impenetrable problem of this rogue despotic regime in North Korea, treading on the lives of its people. This cannot go on indefinitely. It is up to all of us in the international community not only to prevent some of the regional instabilities created by this situation, but to do something for the people who are living there in the most horrific circumstances.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
About 20% of North Korea’s Christians are in jail. What discussions did the Prime Minister have on his recent economic visit to China about leaning on North Korea in order to gain a relaxation or easement of the persecution of Christians?
Mr Swire
The hon. Gentleman, who always speak up for Christians, is right. Alas, it is not only the Christian community in North Korea that is so downtrodden. We raised our general concerns about this issue and human rights in North Korea with officials from the North Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs most recently in November 2013. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman, however, that making significant progress on human rights and the protection of minorities such as Christians is difficult, because the North Korean Government refuse to enter into meaningful discussions on these matters.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
What assessment does my right hon. Friend make of reports of widespread public indoctrination sessions occurring in North Korea? Does that not reinforce the point that greater outside influence must be brought to bear if we are to see change in this despicable regime and change for the people of North Korea?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend will no doubt wish to discuss that at the meeting of the Conservative group on North Korea that I believe is taking place tomorrow. He mentions indoctrination, and I have to say that the levels of indoctrination that go on there are almost surreal—incomparable with any other regime or country in the world. It is truly horrific, with almost every aspect of the Korean people’s lives being the result of indoctrination. That is why, as I said, we maintain an embassy because any chink of light is better than no light at all, but it is a long haul and it is difficult work.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
The Minister will be aware that many North Koreans in touch with families in South Korea have reported not only that the number of indoctrination sessions has increased, but that targeted individuals are being forced to write letters of loyalty to the leader, Kim Jong-un. Does that not suggest that Jang’s execution is part of a wider campaign to consolidate power as the economy continues to fail?
Mr Swire
There are indeed reports that Jang has taken the blame for the desperate state of the economy, and there are also reports that this is the work of the military and not of the leader, but all these are just that: reports. We could indulge ourselves all afternoon by speculating about the reasons behind this. The answer is we do not know. The one fact of which we are certain is that the people of North Korea are suffering in a way that some of us can only guess at, and some of us would not wish that treatment to be vested on even our worst enemies.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
To what extent is North Korea sharing nuclear weapons technology with Iran?
Gary Dunne
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) for securing a debate on this case. I also thank the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) for his intervention.
May I add my own condolences to the family and pay tribute to their unwavering determination in the face of their loss? The death of a loved one is always distressing, and the grief of Mr Dunne’s family has clearly been compounded by the circumstances of his death and the procedural difficulties they faced thereafter.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is committed to making the process for those bereaved abroad as simple as possible. Providing consular assistance to British nationals who are the victims of serious and violent crimes overseas and their next of kin is a priority and a central function of our embassies and posts around the world.
Before I address the points raised by the hon. Gentleman, I would like to outline the involvement of the Foreign Office in the case to date. Following Mr Dunne’s death, British officials were in close contact with the family to provide consular assistance. When, as the hon. Gentleman said, the family experienced difficulties in bringing Mr Dunne home to Britain, consular staff did all they could to help. However, it became clear that under local law, the possibility of a further autopsy during the trial process prevented an individual’s remains from being repatriated, cremated or embalmed. The only option therefore was a local burial until the trial was complete. After that, exhumation before a period of five years had passed would only be permitted if an immediate cremation within the cemetery was arranged.
Representations were made to the director general for the Costa del Sol health district in November 2007 and to the provincial delegate of Andalucia’s health district in February 2008, to see if an exception could be made to these requirements, based on the compelling compassionate circumstances of the case. While sympathising with the family’s wishes, both the director general and the provincial delegate explained that, because Mr Dunne was a victim of murder, his case was considered a judicial one.
Understandably, Mr Dunne’s family continued to fight for his return and in July 2008 they petitioned the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). In October 2008, the right hon. Gentleman raised the case with the then Prime Minister of Spain, Jose Luis Zapatero, and secured an agreement from the Spanish authorities to allow Mr Dunne’s repatriation without a cremation, on exceptional humanitarian grounds. So, with guidance and support from consular officials, Mr Dunne’s family made an application for his exhumation. As we have heard, three years after Gary Dunne’s murder his family and friends finally held the funeral, at home in Liverpool, which they had long sought. Later that year, Mr Dunne’s family contacted the Prime Minister and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to express their gratitude for the assistance they had received.
I now turn to the points the hon. Gentleman raised in his speech. First, I will address the question of whether EU-wide procedures for repatriation could be agreed, to prevent other families from facing the horrifying and distressing situation the Dunnes faced. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, this is a difficult and complex issue. The power to act lies with other Governments, and the ability of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to intervene in domestic matters—such as the variations in Andalucian law on repatriation, burial and cremation, which the hon. Gentleman outlined—is limited. However, it is clear that, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said when he met the Dunne family and—I think—the hon. Gentleman in 2011, we should do all we can to prevent other families from facing the suffering endured by the Dunnes.
Therefore, I have asked that, as a matter of urgency, officials follow up with the hon. Gentleman and the Dunnes’ MEP, Arlene McCarthy, on who has done what following the Downing street meeting, so that we can collectively agree appropriate next steps. Secondly, I know that the hon. Gentleman and the Dunne family are deeply concerned about the apparent inconsistencies in the application of the rules governing repatriation. The advice we have received from the Andalucian authorities consistently made it clear that an unembalmed body can only be exhumed and repatriated after five years, unless it is cremated. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there may be factors at play in the other cases that he mentioned that we are not aware of. Exceptions can clearly be made if the grounds are sufficiently strong, as indeed they were in the Dunnes’ case. However, as I have said, I have asked officials to provide a progress report on efforts to establish common practices across those parts of Europe that currently require delays in repatriation.
The hon. Gentleman also highlighted the lack of support that Mr Dunne’s family felt they received from the Spanish authorities, and indeed the authorities’ level of support continues to fall short of the family’s expectations when it comes to their being kept informed of the current status of the perpetrator of this terrible crime. It is important that the Spanish authorities keep the family informed of any developments in the case, either directly or through their legal representatives. I have asked my officials to contact the relevant authorities in Andalucia to see if lines of communication can be re-established. For his part, I urge the hon. Gentleman to consider raising the matter directly with the Spanish ambassador.
On the issue of compensation, I am aware that, as the hon. Gentleman said, although an award of €125,000 was made by a Spanish court to the family, they have only received €1,500 to date. I am conscious that that can only add to the distress they have already suffered. However, the British Government cannot interfere in another country’s judicial process or direct the Spanish courts to enforce payment, particularly when the offender may not have assets with which to pay the outstanding compensation, which I understand to be the case in this instance. Therefore, I am afraid that our consistent advice to Mr Dunne’s family has not changed. Their Spanish lawyer is best placed to help them pursue this issue through legal channels and to advise them on applying to the Spanish state for payment of the outstanding compensation.
Also, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, with whom the hon. Gentleman has been in communication about this tragic case, has previously provided him with information on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, which Mr Dunne’s family may wish to approach for advice—if they have not already done so—about whether they can submit a separate application for compensation from the Spanish authorities.
Our consular staff often have a difficult and frustrating time, but on the whole they carry out their job—as the hon. Gentleman was kind enough, and right, to say—with patience, dedication and a great deal of tenacity. I am sure the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman will join me in commending their efforts.
Having said that, I assure the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is not complacent. We continually review our consular policy so as to provide British nationals with the best possible service. As part of that work, we have put in place a number of processes to ensure that high standards of consular assistance are provided to British nationals. Our new consular strategy for 2013-16 focuses on doing more for the most vulnerable, including victims of violent crime overseas and their families. Consular teams also undertake regular complex case reviews to ensure that we are providing the most appropriate and effective service in particularly complex and long-running cases, and we employ professional specialists, such as legal advisers and social work advisers, to provide expert advice. In addition, early next year we will undertake a review of the methods used by similar organisations to see how we can develop our own quality control and audit processes.
Cases such as that of the Dunne family highlight the extra support that is needed by those who have lost a loved one to murder or manslaughter overseas. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Victim Support’s National Homicide Service, which in part was set up to address the problems encountered by families such as the Dunnes. Since 2010, the Foreign Office has provided funding to Victim Support so that it can offer such families a dedicated caseworker and give practical support to help with the added trauma, complications and costs that a murder overseas can cause. Those bereaved by murder or manslaughter are now entitled to identical levels of support whether the crime was committed in the UK or abroad, and since 2011 many bereaved families have already benefited from this enhanced support.
In conclusion, I again thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. I am aware of the very great support for the Dunne family that has been demonstrated by the people of Liverpool. This is a tragic case that has been compounded by the anguish that Mr Dunne’s family had to endure in order to bring him home to Britain. I hope they have been able to find some degree of comfort and closure in his return. I also hope that, through their legal representative, they are able to seek the full amount of compensation that is due to them.
Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)
Order. The Minister who is responding to the final debate today, which is due to start at 4.45 pm, is not present, so I shall suspend the sitting until 4.45 pm.
UK Relations with Ukraine
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I am grateful to you for chairing this important debate, Mr Havard. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) for securing this debate and for his continued engagement and interest in Ukraine and his support for democratic reform there. Given the fast-changing events on the ground, this is a timely and necessary debate.
Ukraine is an important friend and partner to the UK. We work closely together across a broad range of international issues and multilateral forums, and more so in the light of Ukraine’s chairmanship in office of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe was in Kiev only last week to attend the OSCE ministerial council. We therefore welcome the latest news that President Yanukovych today agreed to round-table talks with three former Presidents, among others.
This Government have championed Ukraine’s closer integration with the EU, where it has the potential to make a significant contribution to stability, prosperity and competitiveness, and we will continue to support Ukraine’s European aspirations, including eventual membership of the EU, provided that the appropriate criteria are met and provided that it is what the Ukrainian people themselves want.
However, we have been watching recent developments in Ukraine with deep and genuine concern. Several hundred thousand Ukrainian citizens—perhaps more—have taken to the streets to express their views on Ukraine’s future. Also, troubling reports have emerged: of police violence in response to peaceful demonstrations; of journalists being beaten and possibly being deliberately targeted by security forces; and of disproportionate force being used. These things are completely unacceptable.
My right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe raised his strong concerns at these developments in Kiev last week. On 3 December, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, together with his NATO counterparts, issued a statement condemning the excessive use of force in Ukraine, and he called on all parties to refrain from provocations and violence. NATO members also stressed that a sovereign, independent and stable Ukraine, which is firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law, is a key to Euro-Atlantic security.
We have made it clear that, particularly as the chairman-in-office of the OSCE is Ukrainian, it is essential that the Ukrainian Government demonstrate—through actions as well as words—their deep commitment to OSCE norms and values. We welcome the Ukrainian authorities’ commitment to a thorough investigation of police violence. Those responsible for such violence must be held to account.
We firmly believe that the way forward is through constructive engagement and dialogue, and we continue to encourage the Ukrainian Government and opposition to enter into early discussions. When my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe visited Kiev on 5 December, he visited Maidan, or Independence square, and saw for himself the peaceful nature of the protests. He also met opposition leaders and encouraged them to engage seriously with ideas to identify ways to defuse the situation and map out a peaceful route forward.
This House is aware that the protests in Ukraine were triggered by the decision of the Ukrainian Government to put preparations for signature of the EU-Ukraine association agreement on hold. As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has made clear to this House and in public statements, this Government’s view is that the Ukrainian Government’s decision represents a missed opportunity.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Have the Government had any opportunity to make an assessment of what measures the Russians may have brought into play to pressurise the Ukrainian Government to change their approach to this important matter?
Mr Swire
Not to date, but we—together with our EU partners—had hoped that the EU-Ukraine relationship would enter a new and fundamentally different phase following signature of the association agreement, which includes a deep and comprehensive free trade area, at the Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius on 28 and 29 November. What we have made a study of is the benefit that the agreement would bring to Ukraine and Ukrainian companies. It would give Ukrainian companies access to a market of 500 million consumers. Reliable studies have shown that GDP and wages would rise, and closer economic integration through the deep and comprehensive free trade area would be a powerful stimulant to Ukraine’s economic growth.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I am fully supportive both of the people in the Ukraine and their democratic rights, and of the policy of Her Majesty’s Government here. However, does the Minister accept that there is some understandable nervousness—I can see it in the Government of Ukraine—that to suddenly change the relationship with the EU to one where there are much more open trading agreements could force tariffs in relation to the trade with Russia, and that therefore the right way forward, given where we are now, is to encourage negotiation between all the parties so that there is an agreed policy, with Russia, Ukraine and the EU growing together in the future?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon mentioned the economic troubles in Ukraine at the moment and it is our assessment that an early benefit would be brought about by Ukraine signing this agreement, which would far outweigh any negative impact in resulting loss of trade—as he sees it—with Russia. Approximation to EU legislation, standards and norms will result in higher-quality products and improved services for citizens, and will improve Ukraine’s ability to compete in international markets.
As I say, my hon. Friend mentioned the economic challenges that Ukraine faces at the moment. I hope that the Ukrainian authorities can reach an agreement with the International Monetary Fund on a new stand-by arrangement. That is in Ukraine’s hands, and it is in Ukraine’s interests to entrench fiscal and financial stability by advancing structural reforms. Doing so will increase Ukraine’s ability to withstand external pressures.
The Government and, I am sure, Members from all parties in this House look to the Ukrainian Government—working collaboratively with opposition parties, civil society and business—to show the necessary political will and commitment to enable signature of the association agreement to go ahead in the near future. That means continuing with the reforms that are already under way, and ensuring that the parliamentary elections that will be rerun on 15 December are conducted in accordance with international standards.
When Ukraine is ready to sign, under this Government or a future Government, it will find the UK to be a willing partner that is ready to lend support and assistance on the road to a closer relationship with the EU. As the Prime Minister and other EU leaders made clear to President Yanukovych at Vilnius, the EU’s door remains open; it is Ukraine’s choice whether to walk through it.
Before I close, let me touch on Russia’s role. We have all seen and read reports about the pressure that Russia has been bringing to bear on Ukraine and many of its businesses. Any such pressure is unacceptable. In the modern world, every country should respect the sovereignty of others and their right to enter into the agreements that they consider appropriate. And I hope that Russia can understand that this is not a zero-sum game. The association agreement will help Ukraine to modernise and transform its institutions and economy. Ukraine will become more prosperous. That is in everyone’s interests, including Russia’s.
We continue to follow developments in Ukraine very closely, and we are in touch with the EU institutions and with other member states. As my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon will be aware, Baroness Ashton, Vice-President of the European Commission and EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs, has travelled to Kiev and will encourage all parties to engage in constructive dialogue. And as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe set out in his written ministerial statement earlier today, the Government continue to urge all parties to remain calm and to avoid actions that could lead to an escalation of the situation or the restriction of personal freedoms.
Mr Whittingdale
I very much welcome the assurances that the Minister has given. I hope that it will be unnecessary for him to do so, but should the situation deteriorate, I hope he will make it clear that if violence were to be used, those responsible will be held personally responsible for it. In addition, there are already some concerns about the fate of some of the people who were arrested in the original protests about 10 days ago and who seem to have disappeared. There is obviously concern about their well-being and I hope that we will apply pressure to try to ensure that they are safe.
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend is absolutely right—anyone who has orchestrated any sort of violence in contravention of the basic norms and human rights should be held to account publicly, with the full weight of the law holding them to account for their actions.
Once again, I thank my hon. Friend for his continued interest in Ukraine and the surrounding region, and other Members of the House for their contributions today.
Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)
Before we finish, may I say thank you very much for the way in which the debate has been conducted? It is being broadcast and webcast, and the fact that it was conducted with dignity and quality gives it an additional power. So thank you very much for your co-operation. With all the disruption, I intend to allow the next debate to run until 5.10 pm. We will see how the discourse takes us.
Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting
Lord Swire Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Siobhain McDonagh
As my hon. Friend suggests, I find it unfathomable that a British Government of any political hue would choose to go to Sri Lanka for the conference.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
As far as I am aware, the hon. Lady was in this House in 2009, when the decision was taken in Trinidad and Tobago, under a Labour Government, to go to Sri Lanka. Will she tell the House how many times since then she has spoken out on the subject?
Siobhain McDonagh
I cannot, but hon. Members on both sides in the debate will know that at every possible opportunity—every debate, every event and every early-day motion—I have been making this point. I would be making it if the Government were Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Social Democratic and Labour or Democratic Unionist. It is of the utmost disinterest to me who is in power; what is of interest to me is the fact that this is happening. Although no one would regard me as the best friend of our former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), he assured me that his Government would not go to Sri Lanka for CHOGM, and he respected that promise.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I have some questions for the Minister. If he cannot answer today, I should be grateful for a response in writing.
First, what agenda of human rights issues in Sri Lanka has been prepared for the Prime Minister to raise? Does it reflect the debates in the House? Have the Government, indeed, put human rights in Sri Lanka on the agenda of the meeting? What opportunities have been identified to raise human rights abuses in Sri Lanka in the various sub-meetings, and what mechanisms have been identified for doing that?
What strategy do the Government have for raising those issues in the Commonwealth meetings following the CHOGM and what opportunities have been identified for the next 12 months? If Sri Lankan Government representatives accused of human rights abuses seek to attend meetings of Commonwealth bodies held in this country, will they be granted a visa? If anyone from the Sri Lankan Government accused of human rights abuses enters UK territory, will the Government seek to hold that person to account in law?
As has already been asked, will the Government support the call for a further UN investigation into human rights abuses with a view to seeking action by international judicial bodies to hold individuals to account? Will the Government review the policy of deporting Tamils to Sri Lanka in the light of the evidence of the arrest and torture of returnees?
Finally, I deeply regret that the Government are not following the Canadian example of refusing to attend the meeting. Initially, Canada conditionally refused to attend on the basis that there should be some improvement in human rights within Sri Lanka, and then declined to attend, as a result of the lack of improvement. I fully concur with the appeal by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). I repeat that, even at this late stage, I would like the Government to think again. If the Prime Minister attends, the message will go out that Governments can kill, maim and persecute with impunity.
John McDonnell
It is extremely significant that a Prime Minister has refused to attend, and we should follow that example.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I am not sure whether I will be able to answer everyone’s questions in the eight minutes of the debate that I have been left, but I will endeavour to address them either now or in writing.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott) for securing this debate. I recognise the valuable work that he and his group do for the Tamil community.
Before I respond to the points made by right hon. and hon. Members during today’s debate, I am sure the whole House will join me in expressing condolences to the family of Thavisha Lakindu Peiris, a Sri Lankan national who was murdered in Sheffield last Sunday. Two people have been remanded in custody on suspicion of murder. I have discussed this case and travel arrangements for the family with the Sri Lankan high commissioner this afternoon.
I recognise that the Government’s decision that Ministers should attend the forthcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Sri Lanka is controversial. I know that many in this House and in the other place have suggested that we reconsider the level of our attendance, and that also appears to be the position of the Opposition party. However, it has not escaped some people’s notice that it was a Labour Government who made the decision with others, in Trinidad and Tobago in 2009, that Sri Lanka should host the CHOGM. It strikes some as slightly opportunistic that it is only in the last few weeks, as we are packing to go to the CHOGM in Sri Lanka, that Labour has suddenly announced that the Prime Minister should not be going.
I assure hon. Members that the decision to go to Sri Lanka was not taken lightly by the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North highlighted, as host of the CHOGM Sri Lanka will also become chair-in-office of the Commonwealth for the next two years. The decision for Sri Lanka to host the CHOGM was taken four years ago and there has been no widespread support across the Commonwealth to change it.
We have repeatedly said that Sri Lanka must make progress on reconciliation, accountability, political settlement and human rights. That is a message that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary and I will take to the Sri Lankan Government.
All Sri Lankan people deserve a stable, peaceful country with universal respect for human rights. It is vital that the Government of Sri Lanka show firm commitment to implement all the recommendations of the Lessons Learned and Reconciliation Commission. Currently, they have accepted about half of the recommendations, but progress in achieving them has been slow. We also want to see the promised commission on the disappeared, and we continue to call for an independent investigation into other alleged abuses during the conflict to be implemented transparently and to meet international standards.
Allegations of war crimes, rape, sexual violence, enforced disappearances, impunity for attacks on journalists and human rights defenders, religiously motivated violence, detention without charge, the suppression and intimidation of civil society, constraints on the media and political interference with the judiciary must be confronted and fully investigated.
My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) asked about an investigation. The British Government have consistently called for an independent, thorough and credible investigation into allegations of violations and abuses of international humanitarian and human rights law by both sides in the military conflict.
The film footage recently shown on Channel 4 was disturbing—I saw it on Sunday night, and no one who did could have failed to be repelled and moved by it in equal measure—and brings to international attention important information to support allegations of grave abuses. A credible investigation into the allegations is urgently needed to help to bring closure to the victims and their families.
Britain will not look away. We will continue to press the Sri Lankan Government for tangible action on all these points, and we will continue to pursue our objective through the United Nations Human Rights Council. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) talked about progress, and we do see some progress in Sri Lanka. Many, but not all, of the 12,000 ex- combatants detained in 2009 have been released. UK aid is supporting their reintegration.
Progress has been made on ridding the country of mines, which has been helped by funding from our Department for International Development. Last year, the UN Security Council’s working group on children and armed conflict removed Sri Lanka from its agenda following significant progress in rehabilitating and reintegrating child soldiers.
We have seen the resettlement of many internally displaced people. The first northern provincial council elections since the start of the conflict in 1983 were held in September, with the Tamil National Alliance winning 78% of the vote. Although it noted issues of concern in the pre-election period, the Commonwealth observer mission described the polls as largely peaceful, with high turnout across all the provinces. We now want elected representatives to be able to contribute meaningfully to regional governance.
It is because the British Government want greater progress and to maintain pressure that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary and I have said that we want to see the situation on the ground for ourselves while we are in Sri Lanka, and talk to all communities, NGOs and members of civil society to hear their stories first hand and learn more about how the UK can help.
We have already begun that process here in the UK. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark said, I have met members of the all-party group on Tamils, the Commonwealth Journalists Association and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Tomorrow I will meet members of the British Tamil community to listen to their views. During the CHOGM, I will also meet relatives of the disappeared to hear their stories.
In addition, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has pledged to visit the north of Sri Lanka, where some of the greatest damage was done during the years of conflict, in what will be the first visit to the region by a foreign Head of Government since Sri Lankan independence in 1948.
I was concerned by the remarks made by the United Nations high commissioner for human rights following her visit to Sri Lanka earlier this year. She reported visits by the police and military officers to villages that she planned to visit, and intimidation of ordinary citizens who spoke to her. A number of Members have raised that very issue this afternoon.
We have urged the Sri Lankan Government to ensure that there is free access for all international and domestic media and NGOs at the CHOGM, and the freedom to travel around the country without hindrance. I have raised this issue repeatedly with the Sri Lankan Government—most recently with Foreign Minister Peiris on Monday and with the high commissioner this afternoon. They have repeated their assurances on this matter.
Equally, however, after the CHOGM, we want a better reporting environment for journalists so that they can go about their business without fear of intimidation, and we also want a firm commitment from the Sri Lankan Government to investigate reported attacks. In a country ranked 162 out of 179 in the Reporters Without Borders press freedom index, it will be important to bring the spotlight of public, media and international scrutiny to this matter.
By going to Sri Lanka, we will be putting the Sri Lankan Government under the spotlight on the international stage, and we can air our concerns. Debates such as this one, which I hope will be replicated in legislatures across the Commonwealth and the world, can only help to increase pressure on the Sri Lankan Government to address their own domestic issues. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North for providing us with this opportunity, and to all Members for their contributions to the debate.