Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(4 years, 10 months ago)
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Michael Gove
I have promised no such thing. What I have promised is to ensure that we are out of the European Union and out of the common fisheries policy, in stark contrast to the Scottish National party, which wants to keep us in the European Union and in the common fisheries policy. The Scottish National party and the Scottish Government claim to stand up for Scotland, but at every turn they prefer the politics of grievance and the ideology of separation to the interests of Scotland’s fishermen and Scotland’s citizens.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Michael Gove)
I am delighted to announce that Tamara Finkelstein OBE has been appointed as the new permanent secretary at DEFRA. She is the fourth woman in succession to be permanent secretary at this Department. With respect to the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), I do think it is a very, very good thing if important institutions in this country are, wherever possible, led by women.
Jo Swinson
I congratulate the new permanent secretary at the Secretary of State’s Department. It is always good to see senior women in leadership roles.
The Government have set out a new net zero emissions target. Putting our country on track to meet that in order to tackle the climate emergency is going to take urgent and bold action, so will the Secretary of State commit to bringing forward the date to end the sale of new petrol and diesel cars to 2030, allow onshore wind facilities to be built again, and re-establish the Department of Energy and Climate Change?
Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(6 years, 2 months ago)
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Dr Coffey
Absolutely. As a child I lived in Formby, so I visited Southport many times. My hon. Friend is right that plastic does not belong on the beach or in the sea. I commend the work that has been done, but he will be aware of our ongoing measures to reduce the amount of plastic entering the ocean and, therefore, being left on our beaches.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
George Eustice
The hon. Lady will be aware that this issue is shared between the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The former leads on folic acid and we lead on labelling issues. It is the case that there is a complexity in EU law. EU regulations now require that all products that have flour must include labelling. That creates burdensome problems for the industry, but if there is a recommendation, we will look at it sensibly. Once we leave the EU, we will have an opportunity to adopt a slightly different approach.
Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(6 years, 5 months ago)
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Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Tom Brake
Professor Childs recommended a target of a representative parliamentary Press Gallery—Lobby journalists—such that neither women nor men should be in receipt of less than 40% of Lobby passes by 2020. As of 6 December, 25.6% of the 246 valid Lobby passes on issue were for women. As a result of my hon. Friend’s question, I will seek the best means of publishing those figures on a regular basis.
Jo Swinson
Diversity matters in our democracy— both in this House and also up there in the Press Gallery, among those who create the lens through which our politics is viewed. I am glad that the Commission will look to publish diversity data on the journalists covering Parliament, but I encourage it to implement recommendation 4 of “The Good Parliament” review in full by publishing data not only on gender, but on other characteristics; by breaking down the data by media organisation; and by setting clear targets so that, by 2020, men and women each have no fewer than 40% of passes for the journalists’ Lobby on the estate.
Tom Brake
My hon. Friend may be aware that currently neither the Commons Reference Group on Representation and Inclusion, nor the Commission, has considered the recommendation of “The Good Parliament” report. However, following her question, I will certainly ensure that they do as soon as possible, and I will look specifically at ensuring that the extensive level of detail that she has requested is reflected in future reports.
Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Tom Brake
The expectation is that once the shadow sponsor board and the delivery authority have been established, it might take them something of the order of 12 to 18 months to consider the options for decanting. That would therefore add to the timescales. I welcome the fact that we are going to have the debate by the end of this year. We really need that, because meanwhile the fabric of the building continues to deteriorate and the very high maintenance costs that we incur as a result also continue apace.
Jo Swinson
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the public might be somewhat puzzled at the thought of a further 12 to 18 months’ delay while options that have already been assessed are discussed yet again? When works are considered urgent for structural and safety reasons, surely we should choose the option that maximises the ability to carry out those works efficiently while minimising the cost to the public purse without any further delay.
Tom Brake
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Since the original Joint Committee report, the idea of creating a contingency Chamber and perhaps doing more works around the northern estate have changed the picture slightly. The sponsor board and the delivery authority will be established according to the timescale set out, and I hope that she and others will take advantage of the engagement programme that the Government have launched, with three separate dates on 14, 21 and 28 November, and that Members will avail themselves of the opportunity to go on the tour of the basements to see why these works are needed.
Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]
Jo Swinson Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Bone
I shall be brief, because under the programme motion we have only half an hour left to discuss the whole of the remaining stages of the Bill. The programme motion has been proved to be hopeless, as we will not even get to the next group of amendments.
I refer the House to my entry in the register. I cannot quite relate to the supermarket industry, but I can relate to the travel industry, where the margins are similar and the competition levels are as great, and there are a number of big suppliers who put pressure on smaller suppliers. In my day, I was one of those smaller suppliers, but I did not come across the practices that have been described as happening in the supermarkets, where there have been nasty attempts to force the use of the hauliers demanded by the supermarkets. I did not come across such things, so I accept that this is a very different case.
The whole House supports the small producers, who are unfairly penalised by the actions of very large supermarkets. However, the House should not be united in giving support to companies that may be even greater than the supermarkets. I am attracted by and minded to support new clause 2, unless the Minister—and a very fine Minister she is, too—can persuade the House that there is some fundamental reason not to support it. It is possible that having listened to arguments from all parts of the House, she will say that the Government accept new clause 2.
That is the sort of thing that I would like to see more often in Parliament when reasoned cases are made which do not in any way affect what the Government want. In fact, new clause 2 enhances what the Government want. If big companies are excluded from being able to use the adjudicator, that will allow the adjudicator more time and allow the adjudicator to reach decisions more quickly on the small suppliers that matter. That is why I intervened on the former Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice). I wanted to see whether there was a reason why we should not adopt new clause 2. I see no reason why we should not go ahead and accept it. I hope the Minister will do that, but if not, I am minded to support it in a Division.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this series of amendments and for tabling the amendments, through which we have discussed and probed various issues.
It might be helpful to recap briefly on why we are here, which relates to the reasons why I may have to disappoint hon. Members and not be able to accept their amendments—that is, the purpose of the groceries code adjudicator and how we have come to the Bill before us. That relates to the Competition Commission report, which found that although the market was functioning effectively in delivering low prices to consumers, some practices by large retailers could have an anti-competitive effect.
The Competition Commission found that, through buyer power, the large retailers were engaging in practices that transferred excessive risk and unexpected costs to their suppliers, and that this in turn could reduce the incentive of suppliers to invest and innovate, which would act against the long-term interests of consumers. It is worth noting that all six members of the Competition Commission group who undertook the market investigation into groceries agreed that the transfer of excessive risks or unexpected costs by grocery retailers to their suppliers is likely to lessen suppliers’ incentives to invest in new capacity, products and production processes. If unchecked, those practices would ultimately have a detrimental effect on consumers. Paragraph 11.375 of the commission’s report states clearly that all but one member of the investigation panel considered the adjudicator essential for the monitoring and enforcement of the code and that the code on its own would not be enough. That relates to the points my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) raised earlier.
The Competition Commission’s report is absolutely key. It created the groceries supply order and the code is derived from it, and that is what needs to be enforced by the adjudicator. That is why the Government will resist the amendments that would encourage the adjudicator to deviate from the report.
It is worth mentioning that creating the adjudicator was in all three major parties’ manifestos. It has been endorsed by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee in pre-legislative scrutiny. It is appropriate at this moment to report to the House that, following our discussions on Second Reading and in Committee and other representations, pre-appointment scrutiny by the Select Committee will now happen. I am delighted that the Government have been able to accommodate that request, because such scrutiny from a Select Committee is welcome, leads to better legislation and strengthens Parliament.
Philip Davies
Is the Minister saying that she is incapable of making her own decision and exercising her own judgment and that she believes that her role is simply to rubber-stamp what the Competition Commission and a Select Committee say and leave all other critical faculties at home?
Jo Swinson
No, but I think that it is very important to listen to Parliament, as I have outlined. Indeed, I think that was the point that some of my hon. Friend’s colleagues made earlier.
A code without an adjudicator is, to borrow an analogy from my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), like a sports match with a rule book but no referee. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) described the climate of fear, which can mean that suppliers are unwilling to come forward, and that is why the independent adjudicator is necessary.
New clauses 1, 2, 4 and 5, which were tabled by a combination of the hon. Members for Shipley, for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), would all restrict the operation of the adjudicator so that it would be less extensive than the coverage provided by the code, either by excluding suppliers above a certain turnover or excluding supplies from outside the EU. I do not think that in principle that is a sensible approach to take. As I have said, the groceries code was put in place by the Competition Commission, after a detailed and thorough investigation, to rectify certain features of the groceries market that were causing long-term detriment to consumers. The adjudicator’s prime purpose is to enforce the code, so it is sensible and coherent that they and the code should have the same coverage.
With regard to the suggestion in new clause 2 that suppliers with a large turnover should be excluded, it is important to point out that the Competition Commission and the Select Committee explicitly considered that and concluded that excluding certain suppliers would not be appropriate. The Committee stated in its report that such an approach “would be impractical” and that because GSCOP applies to suppliers of all sizes, so should its monitoring enforcement. The Committee stated that the adjudicator is the gateway to the dispute resolution procedure, so with no access to the adjudicator large suppliers would have only the courts for redress, not the arbitration process, which is also very helpful. If the evidence from large suppliers on whether retailers are complying cannot be taken into account, smaller suppliers—this point was made earlier by other hon. Members—might also lose out because the evidence might be crucial to the case. According to the Select Committee, large suppliers might be better able to bring widespread potential breaches to the adjudicator’s attention than small suppliers. For all those reasons, it is important that the scope of the adjudicator fits that of the code.
We had many discussions on whether we should restrict who can complain. In Committee and in the earlier pre-legislative scrutiny those discussions centred on whether trade associations should be allowed to complain. We have decided to allow evidence from any source whatever. Ruling out evidence from particular sources would weaken the adjudicator, which I suspect might be the intention of the amendment, given that it has been tabled by those who do not want the adjudicator to be in place at all.
Mr Bone
The Minister is quite wrong on that. I am not coming from that position; I came to that view after listening to the debate. Does she not fear that there is a danger that allowing large suppliers to go to the adjudicator will clog up the system so that it cannot look after small suppliers, which is what it is supposed to do?
Jo Swinson
I do not believe that is the case. The adjudicator will obviously be able to make their own assessments. The industry is confident that there will be very few complaints, and I wholeheartedly hope that will be the case, but if we find that there are many breaches of the code, and if the evidence comes from a variety of sources, the adjudicator will need to look at that and be empowered to make recommendations and requests, and they will need to be properly and adequately resourced in order to do so. Therefore, an arbitrary restriction on who can complain would actually make the adjudicator’s life harder and, indeed, could increase the risk of judicial review, so we will reject the new clause and encourage hon. Members to oppose it if it is pressed to a Division.
The hon. Member for Shipley seemed to suggest that the provision would cost consumers more money, but all the supermarkets that gave evidence on the matter said, when asked, that complying with the code had not caused them to raise prices, so his concerns are misplaced. This will not cost consumers. Indeed, surveys have shown that 84% of consumers support the adjudicator, and I am sure that hon. Members will be well aware from their mail bags that there is a great deal of public support for the adjudicator.
Ian Murray
The Minister is making a compelling case for the Bill, which we all support. I wonder whether she will reflect on the fact that some of the evidence we received in Committee and before showed that the groceries code and a well-functioning adjudicator will help innovation in the supply chain sector and therefore has the opportunity to lower prices for the consumer.
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The Competition Commission was very clear that innovation could be stifled by the potential anti-competitive practices in the sector, so it absolutely follows that encouraging innovation by ensuring that no anti-competitive practices are going on will allow consumers ultimately to get a better deal, and that is in their interests.
A few red herrings were put forward on the question of whether Esso and tobacco companies would be protected in some way by this. I refer hon. Members, as the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) did, to the Groceries (Supply Chain Practices) Market Investigation Order 2009, which is very clear. It states, on page 3:
“Groceries means food (other than that sold for consumption in the store), pet food, drinks (alcoholic and non-alcoholic, other than that sold for consumption in the store), cleaning products, toiletries and household goods, but excludes petrol, clothing, DIY products, financial services, pharmaceuticals, newspapers, magazines, greetings cards, CDs, DVDs, videos and audio tapes, toys, plants, flowers, perfumes, cosmetics, electrical appliances, kitchen hardware, gardening equipment, books, tobacco and tobacco products”.
That is what was found to be relevant through the Competition Commission’s investigation. I think that it is important to note for the record that some of those earlier red herrings were just that.
The hon. Member for Ogmore said that the adjudicator’s office would not involve huge costs. It is estimated that the costs of running it, including all running costs and staff salaries, will be £800,000 a year. As for how much of that is for the adjudicator themselves, they are currently acting as adjudicator-designate for one day a week on £23,000 a year, going up to three days a week on the same rate once we have Royal Assent and commencement, as we very much hope we will.
On new clauses 4 and 5, it is fundamentally right that large supermarkets should treat their suppliers fairly wherever those suppliers are located. The Competition Commission’s finding of decreased innovation and investment in the supply chain is likely to result from unfair treatment of suppliers and to cause detriment to consumers, regardless of whether those suppliers are outside the EU or the UK. Excluding overseas suppliers would therefore not be helpful to the fundamental purpose of the provision and would, indeed, undermine it. The code and the adjudicator complement each other and so they need to have the same scope. I resisted in Committee amendments that would have expanded the adjudicator’s role beyond merely enforcing the code, but I must now also resist amendments that would limit the adjudicator’s scope to being narrower than the code. I hope that my hon. Friends will withdraw their amendments, but if they choose not to do so I will advise colleagues to vote against them.
John McDonnell
Does that mean, then, that the Minister can now place it on the record that the Government expect the OFT to respond in a public, open, transparent and timely manner to any requests or recommendations by the adjudicator?
Jo Swinson
I absolutely give that assurance. If a body such as the OFT receives information, particularly from a respected public servant, we would expect it to respond appropriately as part of its general duty, but we do not want to be overly prescriptive in how we set that out in legislation. I hope that that reassurance is helpful to the hon. Gentleman and I urge him not to press his amendment.
Amendment 28 would require the adjudicator to set out in guidance which laws will apply to arbitration and where it will be conducted. The amendment is superfluous, because it would duplicate information that is already in the groceries supply order. We discussed arbitration in Committee, as did the other place when it debated the Bill. Article 11 of the order sets out the rules that will apply and the fact that
“the seat or legal place of arbitration will be London…or such other city within the United Kingdom as the Supplier nominates.”
Of course, the adjudicator may choose to publish guidance on arbitration, but we do not believe that it is necessary to make that a requirement under the Bill.
Jo Swinson
No, I am not. We have had an interesting debate, although I suspect it could have been more concise; nevertheless, we are where we are.
The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) tabled amendment 27 on commencement. I am happy to make a commitment that the Government intend commencement to take place two months after the Bill receives Royal Assent. It is, however, usual procedure not to set that out in legislation, but to allow the Secretary of State discretion to commence an Act by order.
Finally, I cannot accept, in fact or in spirit, new clause 3, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Shipley. I agree that we do not want statutory offices to continue when they are not needed, and the Government have been working according to that principle. Indeed, in accordance with our general policy on sunsetting, the Bill’s sunset clause—clause 15—means that the Secretary of State must review the adjudicator every three years and may decide, if appropriate, to abolish the office. However, proposing an arbitrary end to the Act is not appropriate. If, in seven years’ time, the problems with large retailers that have led to the creation of the Bill and the adjudicator persist, we would not want the Act to be repealed automatically. I reassure Members that the Secretary of State will be rigorous in reviewing this matter. I believe that that is a much better way to ensure that statutory offices do not continue unnecessarily.
I hope that hon. Members are satisfied with my assurances and explanations, and that they will not press their amendments. If that is not the case, I urge hon. Members to reject the amendments before us.
Philip Davies
We have had a good debate. I am grateful to my hon. Friends who have supported my proposals. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) who, as he has made clear, came to listen to the debate before making his mind up. He has decided that if new clause 2 was not accepted, we would be in the ludicrous situation whereby retailers with a turnover of more than £1 billion will be subject to the code, but can be taken to the adjudicator by suppliers with a turnover of more than £1 billion who are perfectly big enough and capable of looking after their own interests and taking any disputes to court.
Unfortunately, while my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough came to the debate with an open mind, the Minister did not. She made it abundantly clear that she had already decided what the Government’s view was and that the Report stage of the Bill was a completely pointless exercise. Perhaps that is why we have had only three hours to discuss all of today’s proposals. She made it abundantly clear that she was not prepared to listen to the debate or to any arguments because the Competition Commission had told her what she should say and she was not prepared to deviate from that. That makes a farce of having Report stages of Bills. I will allow her to reflect on that.
We cannot allow it to stand that we will be setting up an adjudicator to which multinational companies with a turnover of more than £1 billion will be able to go to make complaints against retailers that also have a turnover of more than £1 billion. We should deliver the best deal for our constituents, not add to the bottom line of big multinational corporations. For that reason, I wish to withdraw new clause 1, but to press new clause 2 to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 2
Supplier turnover
‘Suppliers are not allowed to refer cases to the Adjudicator and cannot have cases referred on their behalf if their turnover exceeds £1bn per annum.’.—(Philip Davies.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I applaud the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) and the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), for their handling of the Bill. They gave way in areas where there was compelling evidence and pressure to do so; they resisted in areas where they felt it appropriate to do so. That is what Ministers should do while we keep pushing hard on issues that we think they should listen to and argue strongly against. They have been sympathetic. They have not given way on everything, but the Bill is improved and I commend them for the way that they have stewarded it.
Jo Swinson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way in his thanks to me to allow me to put on the record my thanks to the officials Iain, Heeran and Richard, who have served us so excellently, and to thank them also for their Christmas present to me of some plastic teeth to go with the cuddly dog and tiger for my office.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I am glad I gave way to give the Minister the opportunity to convey her thanks to the officials.
I thank our Front-Bench spokesman, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), whose role has been significantly underplayed. He has worked extremely hard both on the Front Bench and behind the scenes to get us to where we are today. I thank the Committee members, many of whom volunteered to serve on the Committee because of their specific interest in the Bill. That is highly commendable. Tribute has rightly been paid to the contribution down the years of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). It is a great day that they now see the Bill going on to the statute book.
The external organisations that lobbied so hard are too numerous to mention, but the British Retail Consortium, Action Aid, War on Want and all the farmers unions from every part of the United Kingdom all played a tremendous role, as did many others that I do not have time to name.
We wish the adjudicator well and hope they never have to name and shame, impose fines or carry out an investigation. We hope their very presence will instil a discipline within the supply chain, but if not, the remedy now exists.
Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]
Jo Swinson Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I am delighted to bring the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill from the other place to this House. Its purpose is to establish a groceries code adjudicator. The adjudicator will oversee the large supermarkets’ compliance with the groceries supply code of practice and will have the power to impose sanctions against retailers that do not treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly as required by the code.
I have been encouraged by the Bill’s passage through the other place. All parties showed a real common purpose and commitment to improve market conditions. We are pleased to have accepted amendments that have made the Bill stronger, in particular on allowing a fairer allocation of the levy so supermarkets that behave badly will pay more. We have also accepted changes to ensure that financial penalties can be brought in more swiftly.
Jo Swinson
I will, as I am aware that I am now addressing one of the main topics of debate.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister will be aware that many constituents have written to their Members of Parliament about the size of the fines imposed on supermarkets that do not co-operate, and how quickly they can be levied. Did she get the general impression from the debate in the other place that this is a weak instrument with which to take on some of the most well-organised, monopolistic organisations in the country?
Jo Swinson
I do not agree with that characterisation. I think the adjudicator will be able to make a real difference. We have put a range of tools at its disposal, which, particularly given the importance that supermarkets attach to their brand reputation, I believe will have a real effect. I will discuss this issue in more detail later, but it is worth bearing in mind that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee looked at this and recognised that the arguments are finely balanced. I acknowledge that Members will, perhaps, come at the issue from different sides of the argument, but I am confident that the Government’s position is the right one. I intend to give a brief overview of the Bill and the role of the adjudicator, and I will then set out in detail why we believe financial penalties should initially be a reserve power.
The Bill is important on two counts. It promotes growth and a competitive food and groceries sector, and it helps to ensure a fair deal for suppliers. In the current economic climate, it is more essential than ever that our groceries sector is allowed to grow and thrive. Therefore, Government, suppliers and retailers need to work together to ensure that the marketplace between supermarkets and suppliers is fair, open and competitive.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
I greatly welcome this Bill and I hope it makes good progress through the House. The Minister emphasises that it will help suppliers, but it is important to get across the fact that it will also help consumers by ensuring that a range of suppliers stays in the market and that there is variety and good security of supply.
Jo Swinson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are introducing the adjudicator because of the benefits it will bring in dealing with potential issues of consumer detriment, as identified in the Competition Commission report.
I believe that our large supermarkets can be a very good thing for consumers, for employment and for our economy. In the vast majority of cases, they treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly. Unfortunately, as the House will be aware, the Competition Commission’s 2008 report on the supply of groceries showed that in some cases large supermarkets were transferring excessive risks and costs to their suppliers. That included practices such as the retrospective varying of supply agreements to force suppliers to take on unexpected extra costs, which is why the Groceries (Supply Chain Practices) Market Investigation Order 2009 came into force in 2010. The order contains the groceries supply code of practice and requires the 10 largest retailers with an annual turnover of over £1 billion to incorporate the code in all their supply agreements. The code sets out a general principle that retailers must treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly and also contains more specific requirements on how retailers should deal with their suppliers.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Sometimes these commercial operators try to crowd out competitors using pretty dodgy means. When they are caught, they try to cover it up, which is why it is very important that schedule 2 is strengthened. The adjudicator may well ask for information from commercial operators, but I fear that the powers in the measure are nowhere near strong enough to be able to force operators to provide that information. They are not as strong, for instance, as the civil provisions under Norwich Pharmacal arrangements.
Jo Swinson
If information is not provided to the groceries code adjudicator, that will constitute an offence, which is a strong power for the adjudicator. We can discuss the details in Committee, but we do have the power that is required in the Bill and its schedules.
Chris Bryant
But one problem is that big corporations quite deliberately hide things from adjudicators. Unless an adjudicator knows precisely what to ask for, corporations may end up not handing it over, which is why it is vital that a full disclosure requirement, if necessary, is available to the adjudicator. Will the Minister consider that?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman is making a distinct bid to be on the Bill Committee, and the usual channels will have taken note. I am sure he would like nothing more than to consider this measure and the schedules in intricate detail. I believe that the power available to the adjudicator is sufficient, and we will make sure that the right individual is in that position with a good understanding of the markets with which they are dealing. That person is therefore unlikely to have the wool pulled over their eyes, and will know the right questions to ask.
Jo Swinson
I should like to make a little progress, but I will then give way to hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), in particular, has a strong track record on this issue.
To make it clear to the House, the code can be privately enforced by suppliers as a matter of contract, but the Competition Commission considered that that the code would also require public enforcement by an ombudsman or adjudicator. The Government agree that businesses on both sides need to be confident that breaches of the code will be fairly investigated and that, if necessary, appropriate enforcement action can be taken against a retailer who breaches the code.
Suppliers must be able to come forward without fear of retribution from supermarkets, and retailers need to be confident that they will be treated fairly in any resulting investigation by the adjudicator as a public authority. The Bill will establish an independent groceries code adjudicator as a statutory office holder to help to ensure that retailers comply with the code, and accordingly treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly.
Jo Swinson
I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, who has worked on this issue for many years.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I very much welcome the measure, and I am content that it has the investigatory powers to address the issue raised a moment ago. Nevertheless, the code has been in place since 4 February 2010, so the question inevitably arises of whether the adjudicator has the power to take evidence on the period between 4 February 2010 and the establishment of that post.
Jo Swinson
The adjudicator will be in place and, as has been outlined, the code is already legally binding. The adjudicator can look at the evidence submitted, and will undertake more investigations. It is up to them to gather evidence on the basis of suggestions that things are not working as they should, and require supermarkets to comply with their legal responsibility.
Jo Swinson
I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), and then to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman).
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
Those of us who are concerned about fair trade for farmers greatly welcome the Bill. It attempts to correct an imbalance in the marketplace, but it is surely not the only way in which we need to do that, as I am sure my hon. Friend will agree. In particular, is it not just as important to strengthen farmers’ hands through a greater export market and through more research and development so that they can punch at an equal weight with supermarkets?
Jo Swinson
My hon. Friend makes a couple of important points and I know that he is an assiduous campaigner on behalf of farmers in his constituency. He will be delighted that our hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who is responsible for farming, will sum up the debate tonight. He will be able to outline some of the actions the Government are taking to ensure that farmers are empowered.
The other point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, which is important, is that we must be clear about expectations. The groceries code adjudicator will, I think, be widely welcomed by the various parties in this House, but is not in itself a panacea. It is being introduced for a specific purpose on which there is much agreement, but there are obviously many issues that it does not cover and that will need to be addressed through other means. The Government are committed to taking those actions.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
I strongly welcome the measure and commend my hon. Friend and those on the Government Front Bench. I encourage them to get the Bill through this House as quickly as possible, because it will be a huge relief to many farmers in my constituency, particularly in the dairy sector. As someone who used to work for the National Farmers Union, I know how long many of us have campaigned for this measure. However, as the measure is in fact a schedule relating to an order under the Enterprise Act 2002 rather than a statute, will she assure us that the code is mandatory and will be entirely legally enforceable by the adjudicator?
Jo Swinson
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and for his support for the Bill. The code is already legally enforceable by suppliers should they take legal action, but yes, it will also be legally enforceable by the adjudicator, who will make recommendations to supermarkets, which will recognise that they have a legal duty to comply with the code as it is. If the adjudicator thinks that they are not complying with the code, I suspect that that will be taken as a clear sign that they need to change their behaviour.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Jo Swinson
I will certainly give way to the Chair of the Business, Skills and Innovation Committee.
Mr Bailey
I thank the hon. Lady; I recognise that she has given way several times already. I delayed my intervention to see whether she would give the answer I was looking for in response to somebody else.
One of the recommendations of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills was that evidence be allowable from trade associations and other third parties. In the other place, the Minister gave that specific assurance and we welcomed that as a Committee. However, I cannot find anything in the Bill that spells it out. All I can find is clause 15(10), which gives the Secretary of State the right to insert after clause 4 proposed new section 4A, which under subsection (2) will enable the adjudicator to consider any appropriate information. Is that the legal base that underlines the right of the adjudicator to take evidence from a third party? If so, can the adjudicator do that before the two-yearly review specified as the basis for the Secretary of State’s introduction of it?
Jo Swinson
I will happily confirm the reference in that clause:
“When carrying out an investigation the Adjudicator may consider any information that it seems appropriate to consider and is not limited to considering the information mentioned in subsection (1)”—
subsection (1), of course, lists a range of places from which information could be provided. The point of that phrasing is to ensure that the adjudicator has flexibility in considering information from whatever source. That includes, but is not limited to, information from trade associations, as the Chair of the Select Committee mentions, from a whistleblower, or others who might have concerns or evidence of malpractice about compliance with the code. We do have—
Jo Swinson
I am still responding to the earlier question, but if the hon. Gentleman will have a little patience I will come to his intervention shortly.
On the other point raised by the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), there will obviously be a regular review of the adjudicator. That is appropriate in ensuring that it functions as it should and that any necessary changes can be made, but we will not prevent the adjudicator from properly considering information before the initial review is produced. I want to make a little progress and then I will take an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer).
The adjudicator will be funded by a levy from the 10 largest retailers and will have the power to investigate breaches and to impose sanctions against supermarkets found to have breached the code. Some Members have previously criticised the Bill as being anti-business. What is anti-business about ensuring that the grocery market works as well as it can, without being distorted by anti-competitive and unfair practices?
Jo Swinson
I will make a little progress, and then I will give way.
The direct or indirect suppliers who are among the potential beneficiaries of the Bill include fresh food intermediaries and food and drink manufacturers. That is why the Bill is supported by major business groups, including the Food and Drink Federation, the British Brands Group, the Association of Convenience Stores and the National Farmers Union. A fair market is one in which suppliers and supermarkets are free to innovate, expand and offer the widest possible choice to the consumer without fear of being disadvantaged by unfair dealings elsewhere.
Mr Spencer
The Minister refers to blacklisting, when suppliers will be disadvantaged by coming forward. Can she reassure the House about how she will achieve that when, for example, the number of suppliers in the east midlands for a specific vegetable will be limited, and it will be quite easy to identify which one is supplying that product to a particular supermarket?
Jo Swinson
Clause 18 provides that there is a duty on the adjudicator to protect confidentiality. That goes beyond not allowing publication of the name of the individual or supplier making the complaint. As my hon. Friend rightly says, there are circumstances where an investigation could, in effect, give away who had made the complaint. In that circumstance it would be possible for the adjudicator to undertake a slightly wider investigation in terms of geographic scope or the types of vegetable being investigated, so that it would not be possible to identify which individual or supplier had come forward and made a complaint.
Peter Luff
This welcome legislation, like that which introduced the Gangmasters Licensing Authority some years ago, proves that effective and targeted regulation can help consumers and all those who work in supplying the food industry, but I am sure the Cabinet Office will have thought about deregulatory measures as well, as a quid pro quo for this regulatory measure. In that spirit, will the Minister tell us what progress is being made on the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, which would also help consumers and those who supply the industry?
Jo Swinson
Consultation is taking place on that measure. My hon. Friend the Minister of State who is summing up the debate as the Minister with responsibility for farming will, I am sure, be able to enlighten the House further on that point.
What will the adjudicator do? The adjudicator’s role is to investigate large retailers and hold them to account if they have broken the groceries code. He or she will also be able to act as an arbitrator to resolve private disputes between suppliers and large supermarkets, as the groceries supply order envisages. Aside from these main roles, the adjudicator will have a number of other functions. These are to publish guidance on when and how investigations will proceed and how enforcement powers will be used, to advise large retailers and suppliers on the groceries code, to recommend changes to the groceries code to the Office of Fair Trading, to arbitrate individual disputes between large retailers and the direct suppliers, as mentioned, or to appoint another person to do so, and to report annually on his or her work, which will be laid before Parliament.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The Minister knows that the adjudicator cannot do any of those things until they have published the guidance under clause 12. The adjudicator can take up to six months before publishing the guidance. Have the Government any intention of bringing that date forward so that the adjudicator can get down to this important business as soon as possible?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman expresses an understandable desire to make sure that the role of adjudicator can be up and running as soon as possible. We all share that desire. I am sure, however, that he would not want the publication of the guidance to be rushed. Although I would be happy if the adjudicator, once in place, decides that the full six months is not needed and the guidance can be published earlier, it would not be wise to force a faster timetable if that was not felt to be possible.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
My hon. Friend mentioned recommendations on possible changes that the adjudicator could make to the code’s remit. Will she say a little more about the extent of those changes because, as she will be aware, many primary producers across the country are really anxious?
Jo Swinson
It is not envisaged that such changes would necessarily be wide-ranging, because the role of adjudicator is based on the original Competition Commission reports and the findings of detriment to consumers resulting from excessive risks and costs being passed on to suppliers. If there are related issues that the groceries code adjudicator feels warrant a slight change to the code, he or she can make that recommendation, but that is the remit for what such changes would be. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend.
To add to a point raised earlier, there will be no restrictions on who can complain to the adjudicator, and the complainant’s identity will be kept in strict confidence. That means the adjudicator can receive information from any source, including direct and indirect suppliers, famers, whistleblowers within large retailers, and trade associations representing their members. That change was very much welcomed in the other place because it is important, and there is a genuine concern about a climate of fear among some suppliers. The change that has been made deals with that concern.
If the adjudicator, as a result of the evidence they have been provided with, has reasonable grounds to suspect that the code has been breached, they will be able to start an investigation and gather more information from relevant retailers and others. If the investigation finds that a retailer has broken the code, the adjudicator will have tough sanctions, for example the so-called “name and shame” powers to require retailers to publish information about a breach in the trade or national press. We think that those sanctions are powerful enough to uphold the code. However, if that proves not to be the case, the Bill allows the Secretary of State to grant the adjudicator a power to impose financial penalties as well.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I declare an interest as chair of the trustees of the Traidcraft Foundation, which represents producers from developing countries, who welcome and are very much in favour of this measure. I do not understand why fines will not be available from the start. There is quite a wide sense that, if the measure is to be effective, fines should be available from the start, not at some undetermined future date.
Jo Swinson
I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point, which organisations such as Traidcraft have put forward forcefully. Of course, in my duties as Minister I have met Traidcraft and other organisations to discuss the matter, but I am not persuaded that it is necessary to have the fining powers from the start, and I will outline why. I think that the sanctions that are in place and that will be available immediately are robust and will be sufficient to achieve the change we require. The adjudicator will be able to take one or more of three possible measures, two of them from the beginning: first, to make recommendations; secondly, to require large retailers to publish information, the “name and shame” power; and thirdly, if we do not think that the other remedies are working sufficiently well, to impose financial penalties.
That range of measures will mean that the adjudicator can tailor his or her action to the nature of the breach in order to enforce the groceries code most effectively. For example, in the case of a minor or unintentional breach, the adjudicator might decide that a recommendation to change behaviour might be sufficient to bring the retailer back into compliance. In the event of a severe breach that had caused serious harm to suppliers, the retailer could also be required to publish details of its breach prominently in the trade or national press. If it is deemed necessary, they could then incur financial penalties, if the Secretary of State has granted that power to the adjudicator. It is also important to remember that the Bill allows the adjudicator to take more than one measure if that is appropriate in a particular case.
Andrew George
Although I appreciate that the adjudicator will have the power to recover their investigatory costs, fining is very much the issue for debate, as the Minister has already identified. If either the adjudicator or the Secretary of State recommends that a fine should be applied, how many months would it take to implement such powers?
Jo Swinson
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. If the Secretary of State decides that an order needs to be made to allow financial penalties, it is important to know that that would grant the power generally, not on a case-by-case basis, and, as a result of the amendment accepted in the other place, we believe that that could be done within six months. It would be fairly rapid if it was determined that things were not working.
I know as a result of interventions and, indeed, correspondence with the Department that some stakeholders and Members feel that financial penalties should be available immediately. What I would say is that the supermarkets operate in a fiercely competitive marketplace, so major supermarkets are, rightly, very careful about their reputations. As an illustration, in 2010 the four biggest supermarkets—Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s and Morrisons—spent £385 million on advertising, which is an indication of the importance that they attach to their brands and what they have to invest to promote them. They are fiercely protective of them and I think that they are likely to take very seriously the impact on their reputation of having to publish their breaches or take out an advert in the trade or national press.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Is it not the case that the Competition Commission inquiry back in 2008 found that more than a decade of adverse media reports on supermarket supply chains had done little to prevent them from engaging in unethical practices? The media are already reporting the abuses, so I do not see how naming and shaming would make much difference.
Jo Swinson
It is important to bear in mind that this will be an independent adjudicator who will conduct an investigation that will consider all the evidence before coming to a conclusion about specific supermarkets and what they have or have not done. General concerns about the supermarket supply chain have not left consumers in quite the same position of being able to take action, unless, for example, they decide to stop shopping at supermarkets altogether. The Bill is likely to drive change. Consumers have been involved in a variety of movements whereby their concerns about certain issues have driven change in the behaviour of suppliers. Indeed, that was the case with milk prices this summer. Drawing on my personal experience, before I was a Minister I took complaints about misleading advertisements to the Advertising Standards Authority, so I know very well the power of a negative finding, the publicity that goes with it and how companies take it seriously and are very keen to avoid such an occurrence.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
Does the Minister not realise that the code makes absolutely no reference to the need to address the supply chains of the major supermarkets in order to prevent modern-day slavery, such as that in the Noble/Freedom Food eggs case? I have written to her about the need to incorporate into this Bill the principle in my private Member’s Bill, the Transparency in UK Company Supply Chains (Eradication of Slavery) Bill. Nothing in this code addresses supply chains, but surely one of the ways to get a level playing field is to prevent major supermarkets from exploiting labour brought into the country as a result of human trafficking to undercut the competition.
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman raises serious issues, not least that of legality and human trafficking. If there is evidence of law-breaking, it should be taken to the appropriate authorities so that it can be followed up. I appreciate his concern, but the adjudicator’s role and the groceries code have been developed in response to the Competition Commission report of 2008. Notwithstanding the serious issues that he raises, the way to proceed is to focus tightly on the report, which provides the clear basis for addressing the problem and consumer detriment that we are trying to solve. Although I have explained to the House that the code is not a panacea that will solve every possible problem, it does mean that we can continue with a strong degree of consensus and cross-party support.
Peter Luff
I reassure the hon. Lady that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority is doing a first-rate job at addressing the concerns of the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). If he has evidence of such abuse, he should take it to the authority urgently and it will be addressed effectively and well. That is a tribute to the previous Government’s action on this important question.
Jo Swinson
I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. He makes his point forcefully.
I believe that the threat to supermarkets of recommendations and requirements to publish details will be enough to drive cultural change. Hon. Members should note that imposing a financial penalty would confer a full merits right of appeal, which would potentially be costly and time-intensive for all parties. It is important that the adjudicator is able to focus on investigations, rather than being distracted by appeals. I am sure that all constituency Members recognise that where there are appeals procedures, such as in planning, they tend to be used. We do not want the groceries code adjudicator to be tied up in appeal after appeal, but want them to be able to get on with their investigations. That is why we think that it is helpful to proceed with the range of sanctions in the Bill.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I welcome the Bill’s focus on the role of the adjudicator in enforcing the groceries code. If the adjudicator, in carrying out that work, came across evidence of serious criminal offences, for example in the field of competition or human trafficking, it would surely be up to them to refer that evidence to the appropriate authorities.
Jo Swinson
Absolutely. Morally, it is incumbent on anyone who comes across evidence of appalling crimes, such as human trafficking, to ensure that it is presented to the appropriate authorities so that they can take action.
Even without fines, there are financial consequences for retailers who breach the code. There may be internal costs of complying with an investigation, such as the cost of sending senior executives to give evidence to the adjudicator. The adjudicator will have the ability to make a retailer who has breached the code pay the costs of the investigation. It is also our intention that the retailers who cause the adjudicator the most trouble should pay a greater share of the levy. Taken together, those factors will reward good behaviour and discourage non-compliance.
Jo Swinson
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will make a little progress, because he has already intervened.
It benefits no one to reach straight for fines before we have exhausted the other options. We seek to impose a proportionate and effective solution. A move straight to fines would risk creating an unnecessarily adversarial environment, which would ultimately detract from our key objective of achieving long-lasting change in the culture of retailers.
Jo Swinson
I will give way to the hon. Lady, although I am aware that other Members wish to speak.
Nia Griffith
Under what circumstances would the Secretary of State consider bringing in the power to raise fines?
Jo Swinson
I hope that the hon. Lady will understand that I am not going to give an exhaustive list. If the groceries code adjudicator felt that the remedies were not sufficient and were not being adhered to and if there were repeated breaches or if the recommendations made by the adjudicator were not being followed up on, those things would weigh heavily in the balance.
There has been a lot of lobbying on this issue, not least from hon. Members. As I am discovering, ministerial life brings with it a variety of interesting experiences, one of which happened last month, when I accepted a petition from a giant dog.
Jo Swinson
It was a man in a dog suit, rather than an actual dog. The event was organised by Traidcraft, ActionAid and War on Want to highlight their message that they want the groceries code adjudicator to be a watchdog with teeth. To further press the point, they left me with my own watchdog, which has brightened up by ministerial office. I assure the House that I have declared the gift appropriately. I appreciate that the decision not to have immediate fines will be disappointing to some supplier and campaign groups, but the dog remains on my office shelf as a reminder that, should we find that stronger sanctions are needed, the Secretary of State will be able to bring in fines quickly. I assure the House that we will have no hesitation in doing so if they are needed.
Jo Swinson
I am coming to a conclusion, so I hope the hon. Gentleman will understand it if I do not give way.
I greatly value the role that campaigners up and down the country have played to ensure that pressure was kept up to deliver a groceries code adjudicator. I particularly acknowledge the work of my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives and the Grocery Market Action Group and that of many Members of all parties in championing the issue.
We ultimately want the same thing: for the adjudicator to be as effective as possible. The Bill helps deliver a grocery sector in which suppliers and retailers can deal fairly and openly with one another to provide real benefits for consumers, business and the UK economy. I commend it to the House.
Miss McIntosh
The hon. Gentleman reaffirms my point very eloquently. He would probably share my view—and I hope that Ministers and shadow Ministers will grasp it—that the security of tenure of some of these growers is absolutely shocking. That is in stark contrast to—albeit another woeful situation—what happens in the dairy industry. A cheese producer in my area contacted me to say that some of the milk supplies for cheese production—a liquid production that we are so good at in this country—are being threatened. The growers that I believe will benefit more directly and more specifically than dairy farmers and others sometimes have only three months’ security of tenure or certainty of contract—not even a year. I do not know—perhaps the Minister can help me—whether the Bill will address this disparity between producers of, for example, milk and potatoes, and others. With the groceries code adjudicator, will these producers and growers gain greater security of contract than the three months or less than a year that they have at present?
Let me explain what I believe to be the sticking point. I hope I heard the hon. Member for Edinburgh South correctly as I think he said he would favour the power to have proactive investigations. I believe that that is vital. I should declare my interest—I know that what I say here will not go further than this Chamber, but I also know that if someone wants to tell a secret, this is the best place in which to share it. I served for six months—in 1978, I am afraid to say—in what is now called DG Competition but was then the Directorate General for Competition, dealing with investigations of complaints brought directly to the European Commission. I understand that the Competition Commission is based on the same philosophy, as it were, as DG Competition.
I should like to know what good reason the Government could have for not introducing a power for the groceries code adjudicator to launch a proactive investigation. It could be based on evidence received by word of mouth, or on material in trade journals. Journalists working in the specialist press often hear things at conferences to which others are not privy.
Jo Swinson
Clause 4 makes it clear that the adjudicator can conduct an investigation
“if the Adjudicator has reasonable grounds to suspect that…the retailer has broken the Code”.
Obviously that could result from a specific complaint made by a supplier, but the adjudicator might become aware of the existence of reasonable grounds through, for instance, press articles or investigatory television programmes. Proactive investigations will indeed be possible as long as such grounds exist.
Miss McIntosh
That is most welcome, although obviously, under the new powers that Select Committees have, we shall analyse the Bill very carefully to establish whether it can be improved. Perhaps the Minister will be good enough also to confirm that anonymous complaints can be made, that indirect as well as direct complaints can be made and that third parties such as trade organisations will be able to make complaints, and will tell us whether the Bill contains provisions relating to the recovery of investigation costs.
We are anxious for the adjudicator to have the power to levy financial penalties without the need for an order by the Secretary of State. That has been mentioned a number of times already in interventions. Having waited since 2008, when the Competition Commission first reported, we would find it unacceptable for the adjudicator not to be fleet of foot and able to levy such penalties without the need for an order. I believe that the Bill allows that in some circumstances, but perhaps the Minister could give us a nod.
Clause 16 refers to the transfer of adjudicator functions to a public body, and states:
“The Secretary of State may by order abolish the Adjudicator”.
Even a cursory reading sets alarm bells ringing. Does that mean that within two or three years of the establishment of the adjudicator, his functions could be abandoned? Would they simply pass to another public body, or would the whole process grind to a halt? Some clarification would be helpful.
Obviously we were briefed by outside bodies before the debate. I should like the Minister who responds to the debate to comment on the views of the National Farmers Union, which is keen for the adjudicator to be able to impose fines as swiftly as possible without waiting for an order from the Secretary of State. Also, can the Minister say whether there will be an ongoing review of the effectiveness of the groceries code itself? There would be some merit in having an independent body look at the effectiveness of the code after some cases have been addressed by the adjudicator, and I am sure my Committee—or, indeed, the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee—would stand ready to do so. Do the Government plan to follow that course of action?
The National Farmers Union has said it would welcome an assurance from the Government that compliance with the code will be mandatory for the retailers it covers. I ask the Minister to set out precisely which retailers it will cover. Will the Minister also state whether the code will be legally enforceable by the adjudicator?
We on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee are keen to ensure that the new adjudicator will adequately protect farmers and food producers from large retailers. We see this as a good opportunity to restore the balance between the mighty supermarkets and the considerably less powerful growers, who provide the food we eat. I hope we can continue to move towards self-sufficiency in their products.
There has been a climate of fear in the grocery supply chain for many years. We therefore welcome the provisions to allow the adjudicator to receive anonymous complaints —that has, I think, been confirmed. We wish the Bill safe passage today, but, in the light of opinions and evidence heard by us and the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, we reserve the right to continue to examine it closely as it progresses, with a view to improving it if we believe that is necessary.
Andrew George
There is evidence and evidence to counter it on all sides, and that takes us to a point that the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made earlier. Providing that customers who are buying British are reassured that it genuinely is British and not some kind of subterfuge, the point about animal welfare is relevant. Customers understand that significantly higher animal welfare standards have been in place in the UK for many years, particularly in the pig industry, and that is one of those reassuring messages. I agree, however, that it does not always work, particularly when the message becomes confused.
When I intervened on the Minister, I said that there was likely to be a lot of evidence of contraventions of the code from the time it was first put in place on 4 February 2010. My concern is that the position of adjudicator will be such that they will operate for only one day a week from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and when they are fully operational, they will work three days a week with three or four members of staff. I also understand that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority already wants to present 1,000 pieces of evidence to the adjudicator, and I am concerned about whether sufficient resources will be in place to deal with all the work, cases and evidence that may be brought forward.
Jo Swinson
Let me clarify to the House that the adjudicator will look at breaches of the code from when it comes into force. It may investigate evidence of problems that have been ongoing, but if a breach stopped before the adjudicator was established, it would not be able to impose sanctions. Because the code is already legally binding, other legal routes are open to suppliers that fall into that category. The Government want to ensure that this measure is successful, and we have outlined what we think will be its initial budget. We will, of course, keep that under review and work closely with the groceries code adjudicator when it is established.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification, although I am also disappointed. A lot of people—certainly suppliers—want to ensure that we have an adjudicator that can look at breaches of the code that have taken place from the introduction of that code, not from the point at which the adjudicator is established. I hope that we can explore that a little further in Committee. We want to ensure that the adjudicator has the time and resources to investigate matters properly.
Clause 10 of the Bill concerns the power of the adjudicator to apportion investigation costs. I hope that will reassure supermarkets that the adjudicator can also apportion costs against those who make vexatious complaints or claims that are without merit. To a certain extent, that answers the point made earlier by the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth—such powers already exist. I would be concerned about my hon. Friend the Minister’s proposal because the Bill is quite clear that such matters should be at the discretion of the adjudicator, and not at that of a self-appointed panel that might produce a survey report by which the adjudicator would then be bound.
Overall, the Bill is extremely welcome and not before time. I would not wish to get involved in a discussion with the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), whom I thank for his kind words earlier. There is no point in looking to the past for an explanation of why it has taken so long for the Bill to proceed. We must now ensure that it is implemented effectively and properly as quickly as possible, so that suppliers get the protection that they richly deserve.
Albert Owen
The hon. Gentleman is a supporter of pre-legislative scrutiny, but he does not believe it delays Bills for two and a half years. The Government have not had a heavy work load on Bills. If we compare the number of legislative days in the House with the number in other Parliaments, we see that the Government have had a lot of time to introduce the Bill. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I want to move on to whether we should have a fine or naming and shaming.
The only difference between the Government and the Opposition is on whether we have adequate sanctions for the big 10 supermarkets. Has the Minister or the Government considered not only the big 10, but the major suppliers in the chain, which are as big as the supermarkets? Will the adjudicator have the ability to name and shame them? That is important. Some of the major suppliers are multinational organisations, and put a lot of pressure on our growers and farmers. Will the Minister respond on that? I would have pushed for such a measure in my private Member’s Bill, because I want fairness right through the supply chain, and not just among the top 10 supermarkets, which have the ability to self-finance the measure so that all are treated equally. The supermarkets should also have the ability to complain to the adjudicator or ombudsman. That is important if we are to have a fully open system of recourse through naming and shaming. The supermarkets should be able to put their side of the argument if the boot is on the other foot, although that would not happen often. I should like the Government to take that on board.
The measure has popular support, not just in the House, but in the country. As I have said, it has brought together non-governmental organisations, lobby groups, and farmers and growers throughout the UK, because there has been an injustice in how the grocery market has operated. The Government and the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire, who is the third to take up the role in less than three years, have an opportunity. Her predecessor but one, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is now Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, said only last week at the Dispatch Box that it was essential to use sanctions to fine energy companies, which are alleged to be ripping off their customers. We must have consistency. The same should apply to large supermarkets that are alleged to be ripping off suppliers and consumers—at the end of the day, consumers pay the higher prices that filter through.
Rather than naming and shaming, we need fines in the Bill, and a real commitment to fairness in the system. The Bill will help, and I support it, but I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will vote for including fines in the Bill rather than just make speeches about it. The eyes of the consensus that the Bill has gathered will be on us, and we should show that we speak with one voice. Although the Under- Secretary would not take an intervention from me, I will take one from her if she wants to say who has lobbied her and why we should not include fines in the Bill. She has tried to make the case, but she does not want to take the opportunity I am offering her. Many of the supermarkets I have spoken to would not be that bothered if fines were included in the Bill, which has also achieved consensus among all the bodies I have named. As the hon. Member for St Ives has said, two or three supermarkets have come out in favour of the Bill. It will not be long before there is consensus among the top 10 supermarkets.
Jo Swinson
One key point the supermarkets have put to me was that there were no appeal powers for them in the Bill. Not going ahead with fines from day one means that we avoid the problem of miring the groceries code adjudicator in appeal processes. That is one reason why seeing whether naming and shaming is effective is a good way to proceed. The hon. Gentleman said that himself—he said he does not believe the supermarkets will be particularly bothered about fines, but they certainly were bothered about appeals.
Albert Owen
The Minister tells the House that we need to build in a proper appeals procedure, but hon. Members will work together to ensure that that happens.
Jo Swinson
The retailers argued for a proper appeals process. The challenge I outlined was that the adjudicator could end up running around in circles dealing with appeal after appeal rather than getting on with the important job of carrying out more investigations, which is what we want. Without the power to fine, we are convinced that a full merits appeals process is not required. That is one advantage of the Government’s approach.
Albert Owen
If, further down the line, serious breaches are identified by the adjudicator and the reserve power is used, we will be in that position anyway.
Albert Owen
If. I am hopeful that if that situation arises the Government will bring forward their reserve powers, so we are only delaying the inevitable.
Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Mrs Spelman
As I have explained before, targets in specific areas can play a role in achieving a zero-waste economy, but they can produce perverse consequences. I recently attended the Waste and Resources Action Programme conference, where it was clear that the waste industry feels that one of the things that has driven innovation and change is the landfill tax. There is no question but that the new capacity through new technology to recycle more materials is an engine of growth in the economy.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I should like to press the Secretary of State a little further on recycling, particularly on the recycling of packaging, because the Government have been too timid in their packaging recycling targets so far. We have been promised a consultation this year on more ambitious targets from 2013 onwards. We are nearly in December, so will she tell us when that will happen?
Mrs Spelman
I think that the hon. Lady would agree that the Courtauld commitment has helped, through voluntary agreements with different sectors of the economy, significantly to increase recycling targets. We have recently concluded new responsibility deals on packaging with the hospitality and catering sector. As part of that ongoing progress, I remain committed to the Courtauld process further extending into the community, and of course we will consult shortly on new opportunities as they arise.
Wild Animals (Circuses)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I urge the Government to think again. A performing circus is simply no place for magnificent wild animals such as lions and tigers and the public overwhelmingly agree. The Minister mentions the possible obstacles of primary legislation and legal challenge. May I put it to him that if he took the bold step of proposing a total ban, he would find a great deal of cross-party agreement for that primary legislation? Indeed, were there to be subsequent legal challenges in the courts, he would also have the support of the House.
Mr Paice
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her comments. Of course I appreciate, as does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that there is very strong public support for a ban as well as support across the parties in this House, but Ministers must take all the issues into account, including the legal advice to which I have referred and on which we believe that we have acted.
Oral Answers to Questions
Jo Swinson Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Paice
The hon. Lady is not alone in having constituents with those problems, and of course they are not restricted to farmers. As she will know, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already made a number of statements on the subject, including about ways in which he can press the banks to be more open with their lending and perhaps charge less for it.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
18. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the convention on international trade in endangered species; and if she will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
DEFRA has not undertaken any recent assessment of the effectiveness of CITES. The next opportunity to examine the extent to which the convention is delivering the objectives of its strategic plan will be the CITES standing committee in August.
Jo Swinson
The Minister may be aware of the recent cross-border crackdown on illegal wildlife smuggling in central Africa, which led to arrests and the seizure of 150 kg of ivory, 1,000 African grey parrots, 17 turtle shells, seven leopard skins, two lion skins and a rather grisly haul of ape heads. That successful operation was co-ordinated by Last Great Ape, a dedicated non-governmental organisation. What is DEFRA doing with ministerial colleagues to ensure that such civil society organisations, which are vital to that work, are supported by Department for International Development funding and backed up by ambassadors in making it clear that our endangered species must be protected?
Richard Benyon
I applaud my hon. Friend for her commitment to this matter. I will certainly work with colleagues in Departments such as DFID to ensure that we co-ordinate the great deal of work that we are doing to sponsor schemes that crack down on poaching, such as the one that I described earlier. We have to understand that the real problem is the end user. We can have our house in order here, and our wildlife crime unit does wonderful work supporting endeavours such as those that she mentions, but ultimately we have to deal with those who believe that the products in question are useful in medicine, and those who use ivory in ornaments. That is where the problem really comes from.