Justice and Home Affairs Council
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council is due to be held on 6 and 7 December in Brussels. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice and I will attend on behalf of the United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the following items will be discussed.
The Council will begin in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) where there will be an update on the second generation Schengen information system (SIS II). The UK will continue to reiterate its support for the continuation of the current SIS II project. The Commission has committed to deliver the central element of SIS II in early 2013.
The Commission will present its second biannual report on the functioning of Schengen co-operation and the application of the Schengen acquis. The report will form the basis for a political and strategic discussion.
There will be a report by the presidency on obstacles to effective information exchange, with a particular focus on the use of the Swedish initiative (on police information) and on Prüm (on DNA, vehicle registration and fingerprint data). More widely the Commission is undertaking a piece of work on information exchange and intends to publish a communication on the European information exchange model (EIXM). The UK believes that this piece of work should be incorporated into the EIXM to give an overall picture of the tools that are available to member states on information sharing.
Under AOB the Irish delegation will provide the Council with a presentation on its presidency programme, which is due to start on 1 January.
Over lunch there will be a discussion on EU visa policy based on the recent package of Commission documents on visas and growth, local Schengen co-operation, on reciprocity with third countries and the proposal on the common visa list regulation.
The main Council will start with a “state of play” discussion on the common European asylum system (CEAS), on which the presidency is keen to make as much progress as possible by the end of the year. The UK has opted in to the Dublin (III) and Eurodac (II) proposals. Negotiations on these dossiers are progressing well and both are now close to agreement. The UK participates in these measures but has not opted in to the three other directives which make up the CEAS.
The Council will discuss the annual report on the implementation of the EU counter-terrorism (CT) strategy. Member states have been asked to reflect on EU achievements on counter-terrorism over the last six months and consider where efforts should be prioritised over the next six months. This discussion provides a useful opportunity for the UK to set out its priorities and help shape the EU CT agenda. There will also be a presentation of Council conclusions on aviation security. This proposal to extend the threat-risk assessment methodology, developed to underpin the EU in-bound cargo regime, to other areas of EU-led aviation security is welcome. The UK was influential in establishing the EU in-bound cargo regime, which has raised the security bar for all air cargo entering the EU, and supports its wider application.
There will be a joint Justice and Home Affairs session on Thursday afternoon which will start with a mid-term review of the Stockholm programme. The presidency will present its own assessment of progress under the Stockholm programme, the EU’s five-year Justice and Home Affairs work programme, which was agreed in 2009. The presidency’s paper will be used as a basis for discussion, providing an opportunity to take stock of JHA work completed in the last three years and discuss priorities for work to be taken forward until the end of the programme in 2014. While the Government do not agree with the programme in its entirety, the UK supports stronger action against abuse of free movement rights, closer practical co-operation on migration and asylum, and attaches importance to agreeing the passenger name records directive.
This will be followed by items on the data protection framework. There will be an orientation debate on the regulation and a state of play update provided on the directive. The UK is participating in both these measures having decided not to exercise the opt out under the Schengen protocol in relation to the proposed directive.
The justice day will begin with the presidency aiming to agree a general approach on the proposal for a directive on the confiscation of criminal assets. The confiscation directive will create minimum standards for laws on the freezing and confiscation of instrumentalities and the proceeds of crime. The UK is still seeking changes to the text, particularly with regard to the non-conviction-based confiscation measure, which creates risks for our domestic civil recovery regime. The UK has not opted in to this directive.
Dependent on the status of related files progressing through the Economic and Financial Affairs Council the presidency will seek to gain a general approach on criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market manipulation. The proposal aims to establish minimum EU rules concerning the definition of criminal offences for market abuse. The UK has not opted in to this directive.
The presidency will be providing a state of play update on the proposed directive on the protection of the financial interests of the EU by criminal law (“the PFI directive”). The draft directive would repeal and replace the existing EU convention and protocols on protection of financial interests (PFI). The Commission presented the proposed directive at the October Council.
There will be an orientation debate on the proposals on matrimonial property regimes and the property consequences of registered partnerships. The proposals lay down the rules by which it is decided which courts have jurisdiction to resolve disputes on such matters, the law that should be applied and the mechanism by which decisions from one country are recognised and enforced in another. The UK has not opted in to these proposed regulations, and has no plans to opt in post-adoption.
The presidency will also seek to gain a general approach on the proposed regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, which was discussed at the October Council. The instrument aims to establish an effective recognition and enforcement process of protective/preventative orders among member states and complements the directive on the European protection order in criminal matters. The UK supports the overall policy aim of the proposal and has opted in to it. The proposal has yet to clear scrutiny in either House.
There will then be an orientation debate on the proposed regulation for the European account preservation order. This proposal aims to establish a self-standing European procedure to freeze the bank accounts of debtors in cross-border civil cases with cross-border implications to prevent assets being taken beyond the reach of the courts. The UK did not opt in to this proposal, but is playing a full part in the negotiations with a view to a possible post-adoption opt in.
Under non-legislative activities, the EU drugs strategy (2013-20) will be discussed. The strategy aims to reduce significantly the demand for and supply of drugs, to promote international co-operation, research, information and evaluation.
The presidency will also provide a state of play update on the accession of the European Union to the European convention on human rights. The accession by the EU will mean that the EU and its institutions are directly bound by the convention. The Government are keen to ensure that the accession agreement is workable and meets the needs of the EU and its member states as well as the needs of Members of the Council of Europe. The UK welcomes the presidency’s conclusion that binding internal rules on how accession will work in practice must be agreed before the accession agreement can be finalised.
There will then be a discussion on e-justice and the work achieved during the second semester of 2012. The aim of European e-justice is to provide a mechanism to make it easier for national authorities, citizens and businesses to access justice information and services from different member states using electronic means.
The Irish delegation will then provide the Council with a presentation on their programme for the presidency, which is due to start in January.
Over lunch, there will be a ministerial discussion on “Three years after the Lisbon
treaty in the criminal justice area”.
Points of Order
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
The short answer is: first, timely answers are not just desirable, but essential; secondly, the Home Secretary is on the Bench and is almost thirsting to rise from her seat—she can if she wishes; thirdly, I just point out to the hon. Gentleman that the Leader of the House is in his place and I know he will want to chase an early reply. If the Home Secretary wishes to come to the Dispatch Box, she may do so.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to my hon. Friend for the delay in responding to his particular question. I will ensure that that matter is chased up and he receives a more timely reply.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Home Secretary and I hope that is regarded as helpful. I hope there will not be many more points of order, as I do not want other people to be unduly delayed. However, I will take a last point of order from Mr Jim Dowd.
G6 Ministerial Meeting
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The informal G6 group of Ministers of the Interior from the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, and Poland held its most recent meeting in London on 20 and 21 November 2012. The French Interior Minister was unable to attend.
I chaired the meeting which was divided into three working sessions over one day, with a dinner the previous evening. The participating states were represented by: Anna-Maria Cancellieri (Italy), Jacek Cichocki (Poland), Hans-Peter Friedrich (Germany) and Jorge Fernández Díaz (Spain). The French Interior Minister, Manuel Valls, was represented by his diplomatic advisor, Emmanuel Barbe. The EU Commissioner for Home Affairs, Cecilia Malmstrom attended for the whole meeting, and the US Attorney-General, Eric Holder and the Secretary for Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, attended as guests for the first session.
The first working session was on radicalisation and north Africa and the Sahel. I outlined how the UK approach has developed over the years and how we work with vulnerable people and other sectors such as universities and prisons. I raised concerns regarding developments around terrorist groups in north Africa and the Sahel and noted that opportunities for individuals to undertake terrorist training were increasing. I urged participants to agree to open a dialogue on how extremism is developing in some countries and how it is being driven by events in north Africa.
The second session focused on free movement of persons. I recognised that this issue is a key principle of the EU but sought views on how it operated in practice. I emphasised that fraud and abuse of free movement undermined the principle and must be tackled, and that the interpretation of the courts must not make it harder to do this. I also raised the question of whether the courts had extended the scope of free movement beyond the original intentions of the member states and whether it still benefited those EU citizens for whom it was originally intended. At the end of this session the German Interior Minister presented on smart borders.
The third session addressed the issue of how to improve the exchange of criminal records of child sex offenders. The director of Europol (Rob Wainwright) joined us for this session. I outlined that, while co-operation between law enforcement agencies was generally very good, such co-operation generally happened once a crime had been committed and I asked what more could be done to prevent serious crimes from happening. I acknowledged the different approaches that take place in member states and suggested that more work is needed to establish the best means of protecting children from these offenders.
The next meeting of the G6 is expected to be held in Italy in February.
Alcohol Consultation
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Today I am publishing “A consultation on delivering the Government’s policies to cut alcohol-fuelled crime and antisocial behaviour”.
In the past few years the Government have already legislated for a wide set of reforms to tackle binge drinking and the corrosive effect it has on individuals and our communities. We have:
Rebalanced the Licensing Act in favour of local communities, for instance by removing the “vicinity test” to ensure that anyone—no matter where they live—can input into a decision to grant or revoke a licence;
Legislated to introduce a late night levy, empowering local authorities to make those businesses that sell alcohol late at night contribute towards the cost of policing and wider local authority action;
Introduced early-morning alcohol restriction orders, enabling local areas to restrict the sale of alcohol late at night in all or part of their area if there are problems.
However we need to continue the work to tackle the drink-fuelled antisocial behaviour and crime blighting our communities. So we are launching a 10-week consultation, seeking views on five new areas:
A ban on multi-buy promotions in shops and off-licences to reduce excessive alcohol consumption;
A review of the mandatory licensing conditions, to ensure that they are sufficiently targeting problems such as irresponsible promotions in pubs and clubs;
Health as a new alcohol licensing objective for cumulative impacts so that licensing authorities can consider alcohol-related health harms when managing the problems relating to the number of premises in their area;
Cutting red tape for responsible businesses to reduce the burden of regulation on responsible businesses while maintaining the integrity of the licensing system; and,
A minimum unit price of 45p per unit, ensuring for the first time that alcohol can only be sold at a sensible and appropriate price.
We are consulting on these measures because too many of our high streets and town centres have become no-go areas on a Friday and Saturday night. Just under half of all violent crimes involve alcohol and a great deal of antisocial behaviour is alcohol-fuelled.
It is responsible drinkers, businesses and the wider community who are paying the price in terms of crime and disorder on our streets, violent, alcohol-related injuries clogging up our accident and emergency rooms and significant long-term health problems. The Government will consult on a new approach to turn the tide against irresponsible drinking which costs the taxpayer £21 billion a year. It will help reverse a culture that led to almost 1 million alcohol-related violent crimes and 1.2 million alcohol-related hospital admissions last year alone.
The consultation is targeted explicitly at those harmful drinkers, problem pubs and irresponsible shops. It is not about stopping sensible, responsible drinking or penalising responsible shops, pubs and off-licences.
A copy of the consultation will be placed in the House Library.
“Ending Gang and Youth Violence Report: One Year On”
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I wish to inform the House that the “Ending Gang and Youth Violence Report: One Year On” has been laid before Parliament today. Copies will be available in the Vote Office.
The original “Ending Gang and Youth Violence” report was published in November 2011. It contained a number of cross-Government actions in key areas ranging from early intervention and prevention, through to actions to enable our partners to take tough enforcement action against those who refuse to leave their violent lifestyle.
The ending gang and youth violence programme which emanated from the report was designed to provide peer support to the 29 areas across the country facing the biggest challenges in relation to youth violence and gangs. The Home Office re-prioritised £10 million of its funding for 2012-13 to help these areas develop their capacity to respond effectively to their particular local issues.
The one year on report sets out our collective achievements since November last year, both in terms of national, cross-Government policy, and particular actions in local areas, facilitated or otherwise supported by our front-line ending gang and youth violence team. It also includes further Government actions which will build on this success over the next year and beyond.
Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Last month I made a commitment to ensure that the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has the powers and resources it needs to carry out its investigations into the Hillsborough disaster. This commitment was made in the knowledge that the families of the victims and the survivors have waited 23 years for the truth about the disaster to be revealed.
I have today published fast-track legislation that will enable the IPCC to conduct a thorough, transparent and exhaustive investigation into the Hillsborough disaster.
This legislation will provide the IPCC with two new powers:
The first is to compel individuals currently serving with the police or certain other policing bodies, to attend an interview in relation to any investigation managed or undertaken by the IPCC in the capacity of a witness.
The second will allow the IPCC to investigate matters which were previously subject to investigation by its predecessor, the Police Complaints Authority. This power will only be exercised where the IPCC is satisfied that the exceptional circumstances of the case justify its use.
These enhancements are being made at the request of the IPCC and will ensure they can investigate the conduct of the police at Hillsborough in depth and without delay. The IPCC has indicated that as part of its ongoing investigations, it will likely be in a position to call witnesses early in 2013.
Oral Answers to Questions
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
1. What change in the number of front-line police officers there has been since May 2010.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
May I take this opportunity first to welcome the 41 police and crime commissioners who were elected last Thursday? They have important responsibilities and will be an important voice for people in their force areas in policing local communities. Police and crime commissioners take up their office officially this Thursday. I look forward to working with them in future to do everything we can to ensure that we can continue to cut crime.
Between March 2010 and March 2012, the total number of front-line officers fell by 6,778.
Mr Slaughter
There are more people here than voted for police and crime commissioners.
The Mayor of London has cut 3,500 police officers and police community support officers in the last two years. The Metropolitan police is getting rid of borough commanders and neighbourhood sergeants, and closing 65 police stations to the public across London, including Shepherd’s Bush in my constituency and South Norwood in Croydon North. Does the Home Secretary think that will make the public in London feel safer or less safe?
Mrs May
Of course, the Metropolitan police has put forward some proposals today in relation to its budget, including proposals to cut central costs significantly and actually increase the number of constables. Neither the hon. Gentleman nor those on his Front Bench are able to get it yet. The Opposition have continually claimed that it is not possible to cut budgets without damaging front-line services or without crime going up; yet budgets are being cut, front-line services are being protected, the number of neighbourhood officers is going up and crime is falling.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
As the Home Secretary correctly says, it is possible to do more with less, as the recent crime statistics have demonstrated. Does she agree that the election of PCCs, such as the excellent Angus Macpherson in Wiltshire—the first ever to be announced—is central to deciding how we can use scarce resources to best effect in tackling crime?
Mrs May
I congratulate Angus Macpherson on his election; indeed, it was good to see that as the first result. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that PCCs will have an important role to play in ensuring that police forces are delivering against their budgets in a way that we all want, which is by ensuring the protection of services such that we can continue to cut crime.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
In last week’s elections for the Home Secretary’s flagship policy, 85% of the public decided not to vote. She chose to spend £100 million on having these elections and this transition, which could have been spent on 3,000 police officers this year. She chose to hold the elections in November, to get the Home Office to run them and to deny the public proper information. She was warned in the Commons and the Lords, and by the Electoral Commission and the Electoral Reform Society, that those decisions were wrong. Given the overwhelming public message she received last week, will she now tell us which of those decisions she regrets?
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady really needs to get her story straight on this. She complains about the amount of money that was spent on the police and crime commissioner elections, yet in the same breath she wants more money to be spent on them. Which is it: too much money or too little?
Yvette Cooper
That was not an answer to the question. The Home Secretary has to take some responsibility for the shambles that she has created. In April she got the decision and the date wrong over Abu Qatada by accident; in November she got the date wrong on the elections deliberately. By not holding them in November, she could have saved £25 million alone, but she chose not to. People did not want these elections last week. They said it was a waste of money, they said they did not know anything about it, they objected to the policy and they did not want to vote in the dark. She did not listen to those warnings and she is not listening to the public now or the message that they sent last week. Why does she not listen to them and apologise for the shambles that this Home Secretary and her decisions have created?
Mrs May
I make no apology for introducing police and crime commissioners, who have a democratic mandate for the first time. For the first time, the public know that there is somebody who has been elected who is visible, accessible and accountable to them. PCCs have replaced invisible, unaccountable, unelected police authorities. I think police and crime commissioners are going to make a real difference to cutting crime in this country.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
Last week there was also a parliamentary by-election in Manchester Central, where the turnout was 18%, yet I notice that nobody is arguing that it was in any way a shambles or that there was a lack of a democratic mandate. Does my right hon. Friend agree that all this says more about the Opposition’s party political point scoring than about any concern for police matters?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I would also point out to the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), that I believe that there was a freepost in that by-election, although it did not seem to drive up the turn-out. I have heard no comments about the legitimacy of the individual who has been elected as a Member of Parliament.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
2. What plans she has to review the timing, frequency and communication of changes to the immigration rules and associated guidance.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
10. What steps her Department is taking through the visa system to enable business and tourist visitors to contribute to economic growth.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The UK Border Agency supports economic growth through delivering an effective visa service, which processed almost 2 million applications for visitor visas in 2011, and exceeding our public commitment to process 90% of cases within 15 working days. We take our economic responsibilities seriously and the UK Border Agency is constantly looking to improve the service it offers. Amongst other measures, it has launched priority services, such as providing a five-day visa service, premium lounges for high-value customers and out-of-hours appointments at visa application centres.
Peter Aldous
What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to speed up clearance and entry for Chinese business visitors, tourists and investors who have been identified by Visit East Anglia, Suffolk chamber of commerce and chambers of commerce across the UK as a vital means of growing international trade and export markets?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the issue of Chinese visitors to the UK. That is an important market for the UK and I am pleased to say that we have seen some strong growth in the number of Chinese visitors to the UK for both business and tourism. It is one of our priority markets, so we have undertaken a number of changes to our system. Half our Chinese business customers, for example, now benefit from access to a priority scheme. We have opened new expanded visa application centres in a number of cities, but we will continue to look at what we do to ensure that our clear message is that Britain is open for business and has a functioning visa system that ensures that those whom we wish to welcome to the UK can come.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
It is no good saying that we are open for business when the perception out there is that we are not. Will the Home Secretary consider meeting admission tutors from the Russell group and representatives of chambers of commerce to familiarise herself with what is happening on the ground? The perception is that we are not open for business and that access is not as quick as it should be.
Mrs May
One problem is that a lot of people are claiming that the UK is not open for business because of our visa system. The former Immigration Minister went out to visit China and clearly gave out the message. The former and current Immigration Ministers and I have met people from the universities, the CBI and other business sectors to talk to them about the issue. It is not just for the Government to go out and say that Britain is open for business—business organisations and universities should give out that message. As the Immigration Minister said earlier, UCAS figures show that the number of applications from non-EU overseas students to our universities has gone up. The universities should stop claiming that there is a problem and go out and say that they are open for business.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
11. What assessment she has made of the potential for achieving savings through economies of scale in police procurement.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
13. When she plans to meet the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I welcome Tony Lloyd to his new role as the first police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester. I am writing, I hope today, to all PCCs in advance of their assuming office on Thursday, to congratulate them and to invite them to join me and my ministerial team for an event on 3 December.
Paul Goggins
I am grateful for that answer and for the warm welcome from the Home Secretary. I am sure that when she meets Tony Lloyd, she will want to thank him for standing in the election because without Labour last Thursday, the turnout in Greater Manchester would have been lower than 7%. Given the level of concern expressed during the campaign about antisocial behaviour, will she review her current approach and, instead of rebranding and weakening antisocial behaviour orders, will she work with Tony Lloyd and other police and crime commissioners to strengthen the law in this respect so that those who make other people’s lives unbearable can be dealt with effectively?
Mrs May
I note that Tony Lloyd, referring to the turnout at the elections, said:
“It doesn’t take away the mandate of the PCC… That, like any good politician, is earned not only at the election; it’s earned by working with the public, being there to listen to the public and to represent the public.”
On antisocial behaviour orders, we are strengthening the ability of the police and others to work against antisocial behaviour. Crucially, we are giving local communities and individuals greater powers, such as the community trigger, which will enable people, if action is not being taken on antisocial behaviour, to require that action is taken. That did not happen under the Labour party.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
Let me tell the Home Secretary:
“What we ended up with was a toxic mix of low voter awareness about the role, the absence of an active public information campaign, near silence from politicians and polling day moved to a time of year when it gets dark at 4 pm.”
Those are the words of the Conservative Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns). In truth, Members across the House have raised concerns about the elections. Does she accept that any mistakes were made?
Mrs May
As I have said elsewhere, of course I am disappointed about the turnout. I believe that the turnout at the next elections will be higher because people will have seen police and crime commissioners in their role and the commissioners will have a record to defend, as the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) has just said, but it was up to politicians across the board and others to go out and campaign, and the Government did run an awareness campaign. I return to the point I made at the beginning of Question Time: police and crime commissioners replace police authorities, which were invisible, unaccountable and unelected. Police and crime commissioners are elected, visible, accessible and, crucially, accountable to the people.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
14. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the effectiveness of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority in tackling trafficked labour.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government have a comprehensive programme of police reform. To make policing more professional and evidence-based, we are establishing a college of policing. To get tough on organised crime, we are establishing the National Crime Agency. To ensure we reward specialist skills, we are reforming police pay. To give the public a stronger voice, we have introduced crime maps and mandatory beat meetings, and the election of police and crime commissioners will give the public a say for the first time in how their local police forces are run. Police reform is working; the front-line service is being maintained and crime is falling. I commend police officers for their achievements.
Christopher Pincher
Since the passage of the Human Rights Act a decade ago, the time taken to deport potentially dangerous individuals, such as Abu Hamza and now Abu Qatada, has reached unacceptable lengths. Will my right hon. Friend pursue any and all measures to ensure that those people who may represent a threat to our country can be quickly deported from our country?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises a point that I know is of concern not only to Members of this House, but to many members of the public. I assure him that the Government are looking at pursuing a number of avenues to ensure that we can reduce the length of time it takes both to deport people from this country and, indeed, to extradite people. In the case of Abu Hamza, the judiciary has itself made comments about the need to look at the processes that we follow, to ensure that we can use not only the reforms of the European Court, but those in our own judicial processes to reduce the length of time it takes to deport those people who are a potential threat to this country.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
T2. Following my comments in the House about Cyril Smith’s abuse of boys, I understand that the Crown Prosecution Service has now located investigation files relating to Smith from the 1960s. Could the Home Secretary now look at whether it is true that the then Director of Public Prosecutions received a second opinion recommending that Smith be prosecuted; why he concluded that it was not in the public interest; what role, if any, the security services played; and how the Government intend to get to the bottom of what several former police officers are now referring to as a cover-up?
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
T7. To many, it seems that the rights of dangerous hate preachers are now more important than the rights of the British people to a peaceful and secure life. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure the safety of the British people and that there is no place in this country for those who would harm us?
Mrs May
As my hon. Friend points out, he is raising a concern that is felt by many members of the public. Obviously, we have recently had the judgment in relation to Abu Qatada, which I think may have triggered my hon. Friend’s thinking on this issue. We are seeking leave to appeal that judgment, but we will also continue to work with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done. We will pursue all avenues to ensure that we can deport Abu Qatada. This Government have taken a stronger line on whether we allow those who can be described as hate preachers into this country and have ensured that fewer of them cross our shores.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will be aware that there are concerns about the provisions in the Justice and Security Bill, which is being debated in the other place today, that introduce closed material proceedings. The provisions will enable judges to see all the evidence in cases that affect national security, while protecting vital intelligence. Will she work with the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) to reassure Members of the Lords and of this House that those proceedings, while essential, will be used only when absolutely necessary?
Mrs May
I am happy to give the right hon. Lady an assurance to that effect. This is an important Bill, because in a very small but growing number of cases, it is not possible for the Government to defend themselves because the information cannot be made available in open court. As a result, settlements have to be made and there is no justice, because there is no trial or judgment on the rights and wrongs of the case. Hence, there is a desire to introduce closed material proceedings in a very limited number of cases, where it is necessary and proportionate. I am obviously working with my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio to that end.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T8. The net receipts under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 were £165 million last year. I appreciate that a fair chunk of that money is reinvested in local crime-fighting initiatives, but will the ministerial team look at the percentage that is allocated to local community projects, so that more groups like the Thornton Lodge action group can be successful in their bids?
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
T9. Mindful of the Home Secretary’s well known views on the Human Rights Act 1998, but also of the difficulties of coalition government, will she persuade the Leader of the House to make time available for my forthcoming ten-minute rule Bill, which would repeal that Act?
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
Police and community support officers are incredibly popular in West Mercia, and their numbers should be sustained at current levels. Does the Home Secretary believe that, by the time of next election, the number of PCSOs in the West Mercia area and in Telford will be at current levels, or will there be fewer or more?
Mrs May
The change that we have made as a Government is that we say to local police forces, “With the police and crime commissioners in place, it will be up to you to decide how you wish to have the staffing, and the numbers that you want.” That decision will be taken at police force area level, not dictated by the Home Office. I believe that that is right.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Will the Home Secretary join me in congratulating the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, not only on reducing crime figures in the London area, but on his ambition to have 2,000 extra police constables each year for the next three years so that, by March 2015, there will be a record number of 26,000 police constables in Greater London? Will she congratulate him—effusively, if she wants?
Mrs May
I am happy to commend the work that the Mayor of London as police commissioner and the deputy Mayor have done for several years, although the Mayor formally became a police and crime commissioner only in January this year. He has always emphasised recruiting and the number of constables who are out there and available. Obviously, the Met and the deputy Mayor, who has responsibility for crime and policing, are looking carefully at the Met’s budget to ensure that they can take out waste and that the money is spent cost effectively, as they said today, on recruiting more constables.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Given the large number of voluntary organisations around the country, including SAIVE in Staffordshire, that look to provide counselling for the children who were abused in sex scandals, will the Home Secretary consider assessing the extra resources that are needed to provide counselling as a result of the inquiries that she has set up?
Mrs May
I think I recall that the hon. Lady raised the point when I made the statement on north Wales. I have taken away that issue. Obviously, the Home Office does not provide the particular service that she mentioned, which comes under other Departments. I will raise the matter with those Departments.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree with the conclusion of the Home Affairs Committee that, compared with police authorities, the police and crime commissioners will
“have a greater incentive to make savings since the level of police precept will be one of the most visible indicators of their performance to their electorate”?
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Some women asylum seekers end up on the detained fast-track procedure because they have been reluctant to disclose sexual violence and abuse. How can Ministers ensure that the system will be sensitive to such women’s experiences?
Abu Qatada
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement about a court ruling on Abu Qatada.
Earlier today, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission upheld Abu Qatada’s appeal against his deportation. I hardly need to tell the House that the Government strongly disagree with that ruling. Qatada is a dangerous man, a suspected terrorist who is accused of serious crimes in his home country of Jordan. The British Government have obtained from the Jordanian Government assurances not just in relation to the treatment of Qatada himself, but about the quality of the legal processes that would be followed throughout his trial. We will therefore seek leave to appeal against today’s decision.
It is important to note that SIAC ruled that the Jordanian Government
“will do everything within their power to ensure that a retrial is fair.”
The court said that
“the Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”
SIAC also said that
“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”
Those words demonstrate the extent of the co-operation between the Jordanian and British Governments in the assurances that we received.
The House will remember the ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in January that Qatada could not be deported because of the risk that evidence obtained through the alleged mistreatment of two co-defendants from previous trials might be used in a new trial. I still believe that that ruling was wrong, but since then the Jordanian Government have provided the British Government with further specific assurances and information about the quality of any trial that Qatada will face, and the assurances directly address the issues raised by the European Court.
First, the state security court, which would hear Qatada’s case, is not a quasi-military court, as Strasbourg suggested, but a legitimate part of the Jordanian legal system that considers criminal cases. Moreover, the Jordanian Government have promised to ensure that Qatada’s case would be heard by civilian, not military, judges.
Secondly, on his return to Jordan, Qatada’s conviction in absentia would be quashed. He would be detained in a civilian detention centre, open to international inspection; he would have access to defence lawyers, who would be present during any questioning; and he would have the opportunity to make a fresh statement on his involvement in these cases.
Thirdly, while Qatada’s co-defendants from previous trials would be compelled to give evidence, they are both now free men, so we can be confident that they would give truthful testimony. SIAC also agreed that Qatada’s lawyers would be able to cross-examine those men during his trial. The Jordanian expert witness told SIAC that their evidence would anyway no longer be admissible, although the absence of case law and other witness statements meant that SIAC could not be sure that that was the position.
In addition, torture has been illegal in Jordan since 2006, and last year the Jordanian constitution was amended to make it clear that not only is torture forbidden, but
“any statement extracted from a person under duress...or the threat thereof shall neither be taken into consideration or relied on.”
That is a direct quotation from article 8.2 of the Jordanian constitution.
Despite these assurances, despite the determination of the Jordanian Government and judiciary to allow Qatada a fair trial, despite the change to the Jordanian constitution that expressly prohibits torture and the use of evidence obtained by torture, in the absence of clear case law, Mr Justice Mitting still found in Qatada’s favour. In doing so, we believe he applied the wrong legal test. But as a result of that decision, Mr Justice Mitting has also ruled that, from tomorrow, Qatada will be granted bail, subject to a 16-hour curfew. In addition, Government lawyers are arguing for the most restrictive bail conditions possible, and those conditions will be published by the court in the morning.
It is deeply unsatisfactory that Abu Qatada has not already been deported to Jordan. Successive Governments have tried to remove him since December 2001. He has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found that he
“provides a religious justification for acts of violence and terror.”
In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of planning to attack western and Israeli targets.
It is also deeply unsatisfactory that the European Court of Human Rights continues to move the goalposts for Governments trying to deport dangerous foreign nationals. The Court has long-standing case law in relation to article 3 of the European convention prohibiting torture and inhuman or degrading treatment, and successive British Governments have secured deportation with assurance agreements with other Governments, so deportations can proceed in accordance with the law, but the Court’s unprecedented ruling in January in relation to article 6—the right to a fair trial—has added yet another barrier to deportation.
Notwithstanding the fact that I still believe that the European Court’s ruling was wrong, I also believe that we have obtained from the Jordanian Government the information and assurances that would allow us to deport Qatada in compliance with that ruling and the law. That is why we disagree with today’s decision, and that is why we are seeking leave to appeal. The Government have been doing everything we can to get rid of Abu Qatada, and we will continue to do so. I commend this statement to the House.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
This is an extremely serious and worrying judgment that means that, from tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be back on Britain’s streets. People across this country will be horrified to learn that that is the case. It also completely contradicts the Home Secretary’s assurances to this House that she had the right legal strategy and evidence to get Abu Qatada deported to Jordan. The information from security experts, the Home Secretary and judges and the courts is that this is an extremely dangerous extremist who is a threat to national security. We all want him to be deported to stand fair trial abroad as soon as possible, and to be held in custody in the meantime to keep people safe.
The Home Secretary is right to appeal against this judgment as every avenue to secure Abu Qatada’s deportation must be pursued. However, there are some very serious questions that now need to be answered about the Home Secretary’s strategy to get this deportation in place and about the action she is now taking to keep the public safe.
The Home Secretary told us in April that the best way to deport Abu Qatada was not to appeal against the European Court judgment, but to rely on evidence from Jordan in the British immigration courts, and she gave very strong assurances to Parliament and the public that Abu Qatada would be quickly removed from this country. In April she told us that
“today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under way.”
She said:
“I am confident of our eventual success”
and
“I believe that the assurances and the information that we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good.”—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c.173-178.]
Far from being put on a plane, he is soon going to be out on our streets, and if the Home Secretary’s appeal fails, he will be a free man.
It is clear now that all the Home Secretary’s promises and assurances were overblown and her strategy has fallen apart as a result of this decision. Like her, I am concerned about the SIAC conclusion given the assurances Jordan has provided, to which she rightly referred. She also rightly referred to the SIAC view that Abu Qatada will not be subjected to “a flagrantly unfair retrial”, and that is why we believe he should be deported. However, the immigration court also makes it clear that it is bound by the European Court judgment:
“all that we can do is to return to the basic Strasbourg test: has the Secretary of State established that there is not a real risk that the impugned statements will be admitted probatively? To that question…the answer must be negative”.
It is clear that the court believes there is a new test established. The Home Secretary blames that European Court judgment and says she disagrees with it, so why on earth did she not appeal against it when she had the chance to do so, and as we urged at the time?
Secondly, what is the Home Secretary now doing to get that deportation back on track? We support the appeal. We hope she will be successful in arguing that the wrong legal test has been applied, but that is not enough. Has she started further discussions with Jordan? Has she put her junior Minister straight on a plane? The immigration court has said that what it needs now is a
“change to the Code of Criminal Procedure”.
What is she doing to pursue that, or other alternatives that might overturn that court decision?
Thirdly, what is the Home Secretary doing to keep the public safe in the meantime? Tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be released on bail. Is she preparing an application for a terrorism prevention and investigation measure? That would be weaker than the control orders she chose to abolish. If her appeal fails, she will need to take further action. Under her new system of TPIMs, he will still be able to meet contacts in London, use his mobile phone, have access to the internet and only have his movement restricted overnight. We have asked her about that repeatedly, but will she please now look again at her decision to water down counter-terror powers in the light of this case?
This judgment overturns the Home Secretary’s strategy to get Abu Qatada deported and to keep him in custody in the meantime. Her confidence and complacency have proved to be a mistake. There has been a catalogue of confusion and mistakes on Abu Qatada, including the Home Secretary getting basic dates wrong earlier this year. There is cross-party agreement on the importance of deporting Abu Qatada and protecting the public. We cannot afford further confusion and mistakes. The Home Secretary needs to take urgent action now to keep the public safe, and get this deportation back on track.
Mrs May
The shadow Home Secretary made a number of points, some of which, I have to say, were either wrong or irrelevant to what we have heard today. She seems to be trying to argue that the Government have not been doing enough to deport Abu Qatada. I can assure her and the whole House that, if it was the case that this was one of those situations where it was just a question of a decision by the Home Secretary, Abu Qatada would have been on the plane on 12 May 2010. However, it is not that simple and we have to work in accordance with the ruling of the courts.
The work that we have undertaken with the Jordanians, which she referred to and seemed to brush to one side as if it was nothing, is unprecedented. The security Minister visited Jordan; I visited Jordan; and the Prime Minister has raised the issue with the King of Jordan. We have secured information and assurances that I still maintain should enable us to deport Qatada. Although the right hon. Lady was dismissive of those assurances, I will remind her, as I said in my statement, of what Mr Justice Mitting said about them. He said that the Jordanian Government
“will do everything within their power to ensure a retrial is fair.”
He continued:
“The Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”
SIAC stated that
“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”
The right hon. Lady asked whether we will continue our negotiations with the Jordanians. We are very grateful for the significant assurances the Jordanian Government have already provided. Of course, our work with the Jordanians will continue in the light of today’s judgment. The Jordanian Government put out a statement earlier today, which said:
“We understand there will be an appeal and accordingly we will work with them”—
that is, the UK Government—
“to be able to bring him back to justice here in Jordan. Concerning the fear of a fair trial for him—there were guarantees for the British government on that, but also our constitution and our judicial system guarantees him that.”
I am grateful to the Jordanian Government for that support.
The right hon. Lady raised the issue of bail conditions. Abu Qatada will be subject to a 16-hour curfew. Other conditions will be determined by the court and announced tomorrow. I believe that a 16-hour curfew is as strict as the strictest of control orders, so I am afraid that what she says is not the case, and she needs to look at that issue again.
The right hon. Lady referred to the new test and to the relative merits of the article 3 and article 6 issues. Those are different matters: Governments have for a long time been able to seek assurances about article 3 —that process is mature and has existed for many years—whereas the need for assurances about article 6 emerged only because of the European Court’s unprecedented judgment early this year.
The right hon. Lady asked whether it would have been better had we referred the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court. On that, she is wrong. Her argument seems to be that the European Court—the very court that has caused this difficulty by setting up a new barrier to deportation—is the solution to the problem. Not only is that palpably ridiculous, but an appeal to the Grand Chamber would have risked our wider deportation policies—[Interruption.] I suggest that she listens to this point. An appeal would also have made it harder to deport further terrorists, had we lost the appeal. It would have been unwise, as well as fruitless.
In April, and again today, the shadow Home Secretary told the House:
“We all want Abu Qatada deported as soon as possible, under the rule of law”.—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 508.]
Unless she is prepared to break the rule of law, she has no solutions other than what the Government have already done. I suggest that, instead of trying to score a political hit, she supports the Government, is straight with the public and supports us in what we are doing to deport Abu Qatada.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The Home Secretary will recall that she has herself urged the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998. In the light of these events, is it not now time to get on with this urgently? In that way, we will be able to protect not only the public from the likes of Abu Qatada but those alleged terrorists who deserve a fair trial. Let us give them a fair trial, legislate in this country and work out our own answers to these questions, rather than leaving it to the Strasbourg Court.
Mrs May
I am tempted to refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on this issue in my last statement on human rights, because I am afraid that I am not going to depart from the answers I have given him in the past. I have made clear my position on the Human Rights Act. Work is being done on it, including by the commission looking at the possibility of a British Bill of Rights in line with our human rights requirements. That commission will report in due course. On the operation of the European Court, as he knows, we have already taken steps to ensure that the Court focuses on the complex points of law that it was originally set up to address, instead of becoming just a court of appeal in so many cases.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The whole House will share the Home Secretary’s disappointment that this matter has gone on for seven years and cost the taxpayer £1 million in legal aid, and that yet again the silks of the Home Office appear to have been outwitted by a small north London firm of solicitors. I know that she has worked hard with the Jordanians—we are grateful for that—but the Jordanian Government are the key. I understand that the king is due here on 21 November. Is that an opportunity to ask him to do what the Court has suggested, which is to strengthen and change the Jordanian criminal code? That appears to be the only obstacle to ensuring that Abu Qatada goes back. The assurances have been accepted, but I understand that the structure of the criminal code is the main problem.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman is right. Justice Mitting made several references to the criminal code and to the operation of the court of cassation. He is also right that the king will be in the UK shortly. We will work with the Jordanian Government across all parts of our representations in Jordan to ensure that we get the outcome that we all want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will consider every avenue to do that.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
I can see that my right hon. Friend is not pleased with the commission’s decision, but she stopped just short of personally abusing the judge, for which I am grateful to her. I assume that tomorrow morning lawyers instructed by her Department will be making an application for an expedited appeal hearing, and that the points she made in her statement are precisely those that will be made in the application.
Mrs May
Yes. I thank my hon. and learned Friend. He is right. The judge made his judgment, and we disagreed with it. Of course, we are disappointed; we think it is wrong, and that is why we will appeal. We believe that there is a point of law on which it can be appealed, and will look to expedite it.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
A very dangerous man is likely to be walking the streets of this country by tomorrow morning, and the public will simply not understand what has gone wrong. Indeed, I myself find it hard to believe that, despite having got the constitution of Jordan changed and the law changed, we are still unable to convince our own courts that those changes to the constitution and the law and the other assurances are sufficient to guarantee a fair trial. What more can be done to ensure that this man can be deported as a matter of urgency? Our legal system will find itself in a ludicrous position if this situation is allowed to go on for a moment longer.
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady is right. We are all deeply frustrated by the decision, given the strong assurances that we have received that Abu Qatada would receive a fair trial across a wide range of aspects. We believe that a point of law has been misinterpreted, and that it is therefore possible for us to appeal. We are asking leave to appeal; that is the first thing we can do. We are also talking to the Jordanian Government about what other avenues might be open to us. Ultimately, however, the problem is that the bar has now been set extremely high by the European Court, and it was that decision, which moved the goalposts, that made it harder for decisions to be made in the British courts.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
What steps has the Home Secretary taken recently to investigate whether Abu Qatada could be charged in this country?
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
The failure to secure the deportation of Abu Qatada is a massive disappointment, but the public’s mind will now turn to the public safety issues involved. Will the Home Secretary tell the House what specific measures will no longer be available to her when Abu Qatada steps out tomorrow morning, now that we have done away with the control order regime?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman’s question is misguided. We have submitted our case this afternoon, and Home Office lawyers will be arguing in court tomorrow about the bail conditions. It has always been possible to have stricter conditions under bail than under control orders. The question is therefore what bail conditions will be set, and we will argue for the strictest possible ones.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Of course, Mr Justice Mitting does have form in this area, not only with Abu Qatada but with Abu Hamza. Abu Qatada will be laughing in his prison cell right now, and in his luxury flat—no doubt paid for by the taxpayer—tomorrow. What further discussions can the Home Secretary have with the Jordanian authorities to ensure, in the light of the European Court of Human Rights’ second part judgment on evidence obtained by torture, that the Jordanian Government can satisfy not only SIAC but the ECHR and the British Government?
Mrs May
We are pursuing all avenues of discussion with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done to address the important point that the judgment has raised. My hon. Friend referred to Justice Mitting. I would point out that, although I obviously disagree with the judgment today, Justice Mitting has given a number of judgments favourable to the Government in deportation cases, so I suggest that my hon. Friend take a more rounded view of the judge’s decisions.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has highlighted the contradictions in the SIAC judgment, and she is right to seek an appeal. Members on both sides of the House are horrified at the prospect of this man walking freely around the streets of London, or indeed anywhere else in the country. Does she propose to provide further information to the Court of Appeal—perhaps, for example, in the form of a request for a personal appearance by the Jordanian ambassador—to make it absolutely clear that the assurances that she gave to SIAC can be relied on?
Mrs May
Obviously, we will look at every avenue that it would be appropriate to follow in order to uphold our case and to get what we all want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada. If we look at the judgment, however, we can see that SIAC has been very clear about the vast majority of assurances in relation to the fair trial that Abu Qatada would receive, to his personal treatment, to his ability to have access to defence lawyers and so on. The problem lay with the one point about the admissibility of evidence and, even in that regard, the judgment refers to the fact that there would be the possibility of cross-examination in relation to such evidence. Justice Mitting still came to this decision, however. We will appeal it, and we will fight our case as strongly as we can.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the concept of the rule of law, which this country played such a large role in developing, essentially involves a balance between the legislative, executive and judicial branches of the constitution, and that the combination of a European institution, which cannot be reformed by anybody, and a philosophy that is increasingly prevalent among our own courts, which imports ideas from outside British common law and outside statute, is undermining the confidence of the public in the rule of law in this country?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has raised issues about which he has spoken on many occasions in the past, as have a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends. What the public want is to see Abu Qatada deported. We want to see Abu Qatada deported, and we are going to do everything we can within the rule of law to achieve that. It is still open to us to ask leave to appeal. We are doing that, and we will fight for that as hard as we can. We are doing everything in our power, working with the Jordanian Government, to ensure that we can bring about what the public want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) highlighted some of the confusion that has led to Abu Qatada still remaining in the UK. However, one issue the Home Secretary raised was the weight given in the ruling to case law relating to Jordan. She also talked about agreements not being reached with other Governments. Can she say whether there is any precedent in any of those other cases where case law was not in place, but where deportations have happened?
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Bearing two things in mind—that the British Government have clearly taken unprecedented steps and bent over backwards to try to facilitate the court’s wishes in these matters; and that the judge indicated in his ruling that he did not feel that there would be an unfair trial in Jordan—are there not some inherent and unhealthy contradictions in this judgment, which clearly merit the strong and robust appeal that my right hon. Friend has indicated she will pursue in the higher courts?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. With his legal background, I am sure he will have cast his eye over the judgment to reach exactly the point he made. We feel that there is an opportunity to appeal and that there are points of law on which we can appeal. That is why we will be seeking leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal with the strongest possible case we can put forward.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Clearly, the use of torture is illegal in Britain and the use of evidence obtained under torture is similarly illegal in this country. Does the Home Secretary not think that we would all be much better served if other countries, including Jordan, signed up to the UN convention against torture, which would make it illegal for them to use torture or any evidence obtained under it from any other jurisdiction? Until that day comes about, it is going to be difficult to deport people from European jurisdictions to those that have not signed up to the UN convention.
Mrs May
The whole point is that Jordan has made torture illegal. It has been illegal since 2006, and the country specifically changed its constitution last year to make it clear not only that torture was forbidden, but that
“any statement extracted from a person under duress…or the threat thereof shall neither be taken into consideration or relied on.”
That is from article 8.2 of the Jordanian constitution. Part of the issue in Justice Mitting’s judgment today is that that constitutional change took place last year; there is no case law that shows the operation of that constitutional change.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
I have been looking at Twitter as we have been speaking, and it is obviously a highly contentious issue, as all Members agree. We want to see the back of this man, but it seems impossible to get rid of him. Without wanting to pre-empt the tabloid press tomorrow, are there any contingencies in place to try Qatada here? Is that possible in any way, shape or form, or could it be done in Europe, leaving Europe to pick up the bill for it, as this is costing a fortune? This is a question not from a legal person, but from a lay person who is also a Member of Parliament.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Can the Home Secretary clarify that stringent bail conditions will be applied similar to those previously used when Abu Qatada was on bail, which meant that he was unable to commit further offences?
Mrs May
We are certainly arguing for the strictest possible bail conditions. Justice Mitting has already set the curfew at 16 hours, which is less time than when Abu Qatada was previously on bail. We will find out tomorrow morning what the full conditions are, but we will certainly be arguing for the strictest possible conditions.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I apologise for asking exactly the same question I asked earlier this year, but it is on behalf of many of my constituents who will be totally perplexed by this situation. What would the sanctions be if we prioritised national security and just put Abu Qatada on a plane back to Jordan?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Can the Home Secretary confirm that until the European Court of Human Rights interfered and stopped Abu Qatada’s deportation last January, British courts and British judges had always agreed with the Government that he should be deported?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right: Abu Qatada had taken his appeal through all levels of the courts here in the UK, and at every level it had been found that he could be deported. It was the appeal to the European Court that prevented his deportation, and although today’s decision is one of a British court, it has been taken against the background of a very high barrier to deportation that has now been set by the European Court.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I have listened to an hour of excuses for why we cannot deport this man. The Home Secretary wants to deport him; the shadow Home Secretary wants to deport him; the Supreme Court says he can be deported; the British people say he should be deported: just deport him, and worry about the consequences afterwards. Does the Home Secretary agree?
Mrs May
I think we have had this conversation before, or a very similar one, and I repeat what I have always said: it is my intention to do everything in the Government’s power to deport Abu Qatada within the rule of law. It is important that Ministers standing at this Dispatch Box commit themselves to operating within the rule of law.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Do special circumstances apply in this case, or is a judgment of this sort sending a signal to any terrorist, on the run for crimes committed in any country that may not have a judicial system fully recognised as right up there with western standards, that they just have to make a beeline for the United Kingdom and they are safe, because nobody can deport them?
Mrs May
Judgments at the European Court have been making it harder to deport foreign nationals who are terrorist suspects or criminals, but I do not believe that this sends the message that my hon. Friend believes it does. There are some very particular aspects of this case. A trial in absentia took place regarding Abu Qatada, and evidence was allegedly obtained from mistreatment or torture, given by others in that trial in absentia. So there are particular aspects that would not read across to other cases, but that is precisely why I think it was right that we did not risk losing our deportation with assurances, which we could have, had we appealed to the European Court. There are other terror suspects whom we will be able to deport under our deportation with assurances that will not be affected by this judgment, but could have been affected by a judgment by the European Court to overturn those assurances.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
My constituents in Kettering will be horrified at today’s judgment on Abu Qatada, disgusted that this dreadful man could be at liberty tomorrow, and appalled at the rising cost of legal aid for him to defend his cause. Does my right hon. Friend know how much money has been spent on legal aid in his defence, and is there no limit to the amount of money taxpayers are being asked for to fund his case?
Mrs May
The amount of legal aid available has been a matter for the Legal Services Commission. I am not aware of the complete sum that it has allowed in relation to this. I understand my hon. Friend’s and the public’s concerns, which is why, in a more general sense, setting aside this case, we want to ensure that we can deport and extradite people more quickly than we can do today, so that we do not have people sitting in these sort of circumstances.
May I correct something I said earlier in response to another of my hon. Friends, Mr Deputy Speaker? I believe I said that at every stage the British courts previously had found in favour of deportation. I understand that under the previous Government, at one stage, the Court of Appeal found against them on deportation, but that then went to a higher court, which found in favour of deportation. There was one judgment against deportation.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
The content of today’s statement will come as a huge disappointment to hon. Members across this Chamber and to the constituents we represent. I had reassured my constituents that this man would be deported. We know that the law has been changed in Jordan, and I told my constituents that it had outlawed evidence gained by torture and that the deportation was very likely to go ahead. Can the Home Secretary tell me what I should say to my constituents? What certainty can I give them that this man, who should not be walking our streets, is going to be deported?
Child Abuse Allegations (North Wales)
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on historic allegations of child abuse in the North Wales police force area.
In 1991, North Wales police conducted an investigation into allegations that, throughout the 1970s and 1980s, children in homes that were managed and supervised by Clwyd county council were sexually and physically abused. The result of the police investigation was eight prosecutions and seven convictions of former care workers.
Despite the investigation and convictions, it was widely believed that the abuse was in fact on a far greater scale, but a report produced by Clwyd council’s own inquiry was never published, because so much of its content was considered by lawyers to be defamatory.
In 1995, the then Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), appointed a QC to examine all the relevant documents and recommend whether there should be a public inquiry. The recommendation was that there should be not a public inquiry but an examination of the work of private care homes and the social services departments in Gwynedd and Clwyd councils. This work revealed not only shortcomings in the protection of vulnerable children, but that the shortcomings had persisted even after the police investigation and subsequent prosecutions.
In 1996, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), the then new Secretary of State for Wales, invited Sir Ronald Waterhouse to lead an inquiry into the abuse of children in care in the Gwynedd and Clwyd council areas. The Waterhouse inquiry sat for 203 days and heard evidence from more than 650 people. Statements made to the inquiry named more than 80 people as child abusers, many of whom were care workers or teachers. In 2000, the inquiry’s report “Lost in Care” made 72 recommendations for changes to the way in which children in care were protected by councils, social services and the police. Following the report’s publications, 140 compensation claims were settled on behalf of the victims
The report found no evidence of a paedophile ring beyond the care system, which was the basis of the rumours that followed the original police investigation and, indeed, one of the allegations made in the past week. Last Friday, a victim of sexual abuse at one of the homes named in the report—Mr Steve Messham—alleged that the inquiry did not look at abuse outside care homes, and he renewed allegations against the police and several individuals. The Government are treating those allegations with the utmost seriousness. Child abuse is a hateful, abhorrent and disgusting crime, and we must not allow these allegations to go unanswered. I therefore urge anybody who has information relating to the allegations to go to the police.
I can tell the House that Mark Polin, the chief constable of North Wales police, has invited Keith Bristow, the director general of the National Crime Agency, to assess the allegations recently received, review the historic police investigations and investigate any fresh allegations reported to the police into the alleged historic abuse in north Wales care homes. He will lead a team of officers from the Serious and Organised Crime Agency and other investigative assets as necessary, and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre will act as the single point of contact for fresh referrals relating to historic abuse in north Wales care homes. He will produce an initial report reviewing the historic investigations and any fresh allegations by April 2013. I have made it clear to Mark Polin and Keith Bristow that the Home Office is ready to assist with the additional costs of that work.
In addition, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, the Government will ask a senior independent figure to lead an urgent investigation into whether the Waterhouse inquiry was properly constituted and did its job. Given the seriousness of the allegations, we will make sure that that work is completed urgently.
Given that there have also been serious allegations about other historic child sex offences, I should also inform the House of the work being conducted by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. This will establish a full picture of all forces that have received allegations in relation to Jimmy Savile, examine whether these allegations were investigated properly, and identify wider lessons from the response of the police forces involved. I have been assured by HMIC that its work will also take into account any lessons that emerge from these latest allegations.
Before I conclude, I would like to warn hon. Members that if they plan to use parliamentary privilege to name any suspects, they risk jeopardising any future trial and, therefore, the possibility of justice for the victims, which I believe the whole House wants to see.
I believe that the whole House will also be united in sending this message to victims of child abuse: “If you have suffered and you go to the police about what you have been through, those of us in positions of authority and responsibility will not shirk our duty to support you. We must do everything in our power to do everything we can to help you, and everything we can to get to the bottom of these terrible allegations.”
I commend this statement to the House.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for her statement. She is right that these are deeply disturbing allegations. Child abuse and sexual abuse of children and young people are among the most despicable of crimes. When adults who should be trusted to care for children abuse their power and position of trust by committing violent crimes, it can haunt those young people for the rest of their lives. That is made worse if society and the institutions charged with protecting children, including in the criminal justice system, fail to step in to provide greater protection or hold the perpetrators to account. The Home Secretary is therefore right to act on the latest concerns.
There are three major issues, each of which needs to be addressed. First, where crimes have been committed or suspected, we need a proper criminal investigation, led by the police in the pursuit of justice. Secondly, we need to know whether there has been an institutional failure to deal with the issue before, be it turning a blind eye, covering things up or simply failing to get to the bottom of what happened. Thirdly, we need to know what further changes are needed to our current framework for safeguarding children and investigating abuse. However, we cannot look at the allegations around north Wales in isolation. The same three questions—about criminal allegations, potential institutional failure and the lessons for today—are just as significant when it comes to the abuse by Jimmy Savile, as well as more current problems, such as the events in Rochdale or the work that the Children’s Commissioner is doing on child sexual exploitation. I am concerned that the Home Secretary’s response will not be wide enough to cover all those issues. Let me take each in turn.
I welcome the points that the Home Secretary has made today about the new criminal investigation into the allegations in north Wales, and in particular the involvement of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, which has considerable expertise. Clearly the investigation must go more widely than north Wales if that is where the evidence takes it. I hope that she can provide that assurance to the House. On the historic reviews, I welcome her decision to look again at the Waterhouse inquiry, which I assume will involve looking at whether child abuse that might have taken place outside the care system was sufficiently considered.
However, we have a whole series of inquiries under way into similar problems, in addition to important police and criminal investigations. As I understand it, there are three BBC inquiries into what happened with Jimmy Savile, a Department of Health inquiry—as well as several separate hospital inquiries—a Crown Prosecution Service inquiry, a new north Wales inquiry and an inquiry by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary into other forces that may have received allegations about Jimmy Savile. The Home Secretary will know that we have already raised our concern that the Savile investigations should be brought under a single inquiry. We remain concerned that these multiple inquiries have no way to draw together the common themes, the problems or the lessons that need to be learned. Of course we need to get to the bottom of what is happening in each case, but at the moment the framework that the Government have set out risks being confused.
The reason this is important is that we have to have a proper way to learn the right lessons for the current framework for safeguarding children, because there are clearly current lessons to be learned. Obviously a series of child protection policies have been introduced since many of the events took place. Big changes include the Children’s Commissioners, strengthening the law repeatedly, new measures and policies on safeguarding in schools and social services, and the creation of CEOP. However, we all remain concerned that victims of sexual abuse, particularly children, are too often simply not believed or taken seriously enough—abuse that was ignored for too long against girls and young women in Rochdale very recently, as well as concerns that have been raised in Rotherham. We have also seen the forthcoming Children’s Commissioner’s report, which will raise concerns about wider child exploitation. We have raised concerns too about some of the policy changes that the Government have introduced, such as changes to vetting and barring arrangements and changes to the way in which CEOP will operate. Primary care trusts have also raised concerns about the way in which child safeguarding will be treated in the NHS as a result of the reforms.
There are wider concerns, and lessons for today that need to be learned alongside the detailed historic investigations that rightly must take place. I know that the Home Secretary is deeply concerned by these crimes, and that she takes them extremely seriously. I therefore urge her to look again at the framework for these inquiries and at the possibility of a single overarching inquiry or review that would draw all the evidence together and consider what needs to be done to protect children now.
It is extremely hard for the victims of child abuse and of sexual abuse against young people to speak out and to talk about crimes that are so intimate and so deeply disturbing, and they show great bravery when they do so. We need to show them that they will be listened to, that we will give them the support that they need and that everything possible will be done to protect children in the future as well.
Mrs May
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for the approach that she has taken to these serious issues. It is right that we should work together across the House to find the best solution, not only to get to the bottom of anything that we have failed to uncover so far, but to support the victims—which, as she and I have said, is so important.
In looking at these issues, it is right that we should first look into the police investigations to see whether any avenues that should have been followed were not pursued, and whether any issues have been uncovered as a result of the allegations that are now coming forward that should be dealt with. We must also pursue any criminality that comes forward, so that the victims can see that justice is being done.
That is why I have put an emphasis on the police investigation, and on the NCA working with the North Wales police to look into the historic allegations and ensure that everything necessary was done. If there are any avenues to be pursued in any criminal investigations, I am absolutely clear that the police should take them wherever they go. It is important that the NCA’s director general should bring in various assets, including, crucially, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and CEOP. CEOP is renowned for dealing with these issues, and it is right that it should be the single point of contact for any fresh allegations that come forward.
If, at the end of the processes that we have set in train, it appears necessary to move forward to a wider investigation, of course we will look at that. At this stage, we need to get the police investigations into any criminality under way, and to ensure that the Waterhouse inquiry did as it was intended to do, and did it properly. As I have said, however, if there is a case to be made for a wider inquiry at some stage in the future, we will of course look at the issue.
I shall return to the point on which the right hon. Lady and I ended our statements today. She was right to say that other police investigations had taken place in which there were issues over whether the victims were believed. We need to be able to reassure victims that, when they come forward, they will be listened to and taken seriously. It is incumbent on all of us in the House, in the positions of authority and responsibility that we hold, to ensure that that is the case.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The Prime Minister is to be congratulated on the urgency with which he has responded to this matter, and the Home Secretary is to be congratulated on the speed with which she has come to the House today. Many weeks ago, when the Savile affair first reared its ugly head, I said that it was just the tip of the iceberg. We should not be surprised that child abuse has now raised its head in the political spectrum as well.
As the shadow Home Secretary has said, we now have a multiplicity of inquiries, and the Home Secretary has just announced an inquiry about an inquiry. Rather than waking up to find a new institution involved in this mire every week, is it not now time to have an overarching and robust public inquiry into all the failings in child protection in various institutions—the BBC, the health service, the police, the Church and so on—during the latter part of the 20th century? All institutions involved with children and young people should be made to have a robust child protection policy that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. All perpetrators should be exposed and brought to book, and all victims should be given credence and closure at last.
Mrs May
I commend my hon. Friend, who has championed the interests of children and child protection throughout his time in this House. He has a worthy record of bringing these issues before the House and the public.
My hon. Friend talked about bringing perpetrators to book, but as I said in my response to the shadow Home Secretary, what matters at this stage is that we are able to let the police do the job of identifying the allegations brought forward, pursuing the investigations and bringing perpetrators to book where possible. He has rightly said that this is not just an issue that has hit the care homes in north Wales, as the allegations of child abuse and actions of child abuse go wider in respect of the number of institutions involved in various ways over the years. As I said to the shadow Home Secretary, let us see the criminal investigation routes pursued, and if there is a case to go wider, of course the Government will look at that.
Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)
In February 2000, I was the Secretary of State for Wales and reported Sir Ronald Waterhouse’s report to this House of Commons. Does the Secretary of State agree that, although the report exposed monumental wickedness and came up with superb recommendations, including the creation of a Children’s Commissioner for Wales, and that however important it is to look at Sir Ronald’s inquiry, it is much more important to deal with the investigations into fresh allegations that are now before us? Secondly, will the Home Secretary assure the House that she is in close contact with Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, who is obviously also dealing with this issue, as social services are devolved?
Mrs May
I recognise that when the Waterhouse inquiry was set up and when it reported, it was generally welcomed in the House for the work it had done. Given the fresh allegations, however, I think it is important to ask somebody to look again at that work. Alongside it, what is of course important, as the right hon. Gentleman said, are the police investigations, looking into any fresh allegations that have been made and, as I say, looking at the historic allegations and investigations, too, to ensure that those were indeed conducted properly and went as widely as they needed to. As for the First Minister for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has spoken to him. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, policing is not a devolved matter, but there will be further discussions with the First Minister on a number of these matters, including the review of the Waterhouse review.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has just announced a number of inquiries, but I agree with the right hon. Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper)and for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and with my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) in that there is a real imperative and priority for the police to get on with their job now, which is to investigate fresh allegations of criminality—and they must be left unhindered to do that, without being inhibited by other forms of inquiries into inquiries. I urge my right hon. Friend to allow the police to get on with that and, if necessary, to delay any inquiries into the inquiries so that the suspects can be prosecuted and, if necessary, found guilty, and the innocent can be relieved of the suspicion that is current in the media.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his comments. It is absolutely right that the police should be unhindered in their work of investigating any fresh allegations and, as I say, any historic allegations as well. If any charges are to be brought, the individuals need to be identified and criminal prosecutions pursued. The review into the Waterhouse inquiry will not, I think, get in the way of the police investigations, as it is a review into how that inquiry was conducted. It is right that the police are allowed and able to get on with the job. If people have committed horrendous crimes, we all want to see them brought to justice on the basis of the evidence and we want the criminality to be pursued.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I commend the Home Secretary for the speed with which she has acted on this issue. I remind her that when the Children’s commissioner gave evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee in its inquiry into Rochdale, she said that child abuse was happening in every town and city in this country. At the end of the day, I think the right hon. Lady is going to have to have a public inquiry—an overarching inquiry that brings all the strands together. In the meantime, will she assure us that the National Crime Agency will have this co-ordinating function with all the other inquiries that are going on? Will she please involve the Director of Public Prosecutions at the earliest opportunity. In the end, the victims want to see people prosecuted.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. He has reminded us of the remarks made by the Children’s Commissioner when she came before the Home Affairs Committee. The director general of the NCA, Keith Bristow, working with SOCA, CEOP and any other assets he feels necessary to bring to bear at the invitation of the chief constable of North Wales, will primarily be looking into those allegations. If it is the case that other allegations surface in another context, which it would be appropriate to wind into the investigation, the director general of the NCA would, of course, be able to do that.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
These allegations are indeed very distressing. In the original Waterhouse inquiry, 28 people were named but their names were not publicly reported because the judge reasonably assumed that it would prejudice any future trial—a trial that never happened. Does the Home Secretary agree that whenever there is an inquiry into what happened historically, as opposed to the recent allegations, it must get to the bottom of why there was no follow-up police investigation after Waterhouse concluded?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right. One point of bringing extra resource in to support the North Wales police on this issue is to look at the historic allegations and to investigate whether everything was done that needed to be done in respect of following up criminal prosecutions as well as ensuring that all the evidence was taken.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I commend the Home Secretary for her statement today and the urgent action she has taken. I am very pleased that CEOP will be involved and that every extra resource will be there, if necessary. Some of these allegations, however, are not fresh; they were made during the proceedings of the Waterhouse inquiry. I believe that the right hon. Lady is right that a two-strand approach is vital and that the police should get on with it immediately. As to the inquiry itself, if the individual looking into it says, as others have said here today, that we need a further, overarching public inquiry, will the Home Secretary agree to it?
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I welcome the fact that, following these serious allegations, the Home Secretary has acted very quickly indeed to investigate the specific problems in north Wales. Will she reaffirm that if anybody is found to have been involved in this, they can expect absolutely no mercy and that the full force of the law will be pursued in the courts?
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
The lesson of Hillsborough and hacking is that a narrowed down investigation is the basic building-block of a cover-up. To limit this inquiry to north Wales and Savile would, in my view, be a dereliction of the Home Secretary’s duty. It would guarantee that many sickening crimes will remain uninvestigated, and some of the most despicable paedophiles will remain protected by the establishment that has shielded them for 30 years. Will the right hon. Lady please guarantee that the SOCA inquiry has licence to follow any lead it finds in what will be, after all, a serious criminal investigation. There should be no historic sexual abuse of children which is off limits to this investigation, and the police should be supported by a dedicated team of child protection specialists, many of whom have been raising their concerns for years. Whether someone was raped and tortured as a child in Wales or in Whitehall, they are entitled to be heard.
The media may be transfixed by the spectre of a paedophile Cabinet Minister abusing children, but what actually matters are the thousands and thousands of children whose lives have been ground into nothing, who prefer to kill themselves than carry on, who have nowhere to turn, to whom nobody listens and whom nobody helps. Does the right hon. Lady sincerely want to start making amends, or can she live with being what she has just announced—the next stage of a cover-up?
Mrs May
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has chosen to take that tone. I know that he is keen to see the large-scale inquiry to which a number of Members have referred. I have explained why I think it important for the criminal investigation to run its course, and to be pursued without fear or favour. I assure him that what I, and the Government, want to do is ensure that we establish investigations, and that, if there are people who should be pursued for the purpose of prosecution, such a process then takes place. I have made that absolutely clear.
It is entirely true that there have been a number of instances, over the years and across the country, of different forms of child sexual abuse. We now see the online and on-street grooming of children, and a number of other variations of child abuse. What is so horrific is the extent to which that abuse has been taking place in our country and throughout our communities over the years.
There are various ways in which the police are investigating these matters and inquiries are taking place. In relation to the issue in north Wales, it is important for the police to be able to pursue any criminal investigations without fear or favour, taking those investigations, absolutely clearly, where the evidence leads them. That is what they should be doing, that is what they will be doing, and that is I believe the best way to bring justice to the victims.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Today’s statement concerned some of the most shocking incidents that I can remember occurring during my political life in Wales. Like others, I greatly commend the Prime Minister for the speed with which he established the urgent investigation.
It may well be true that we must have the wide-ranging inquiry to which several Members have referred. However, we do not want to lose sight of the fact that there is an issue in north Wales that must be dealt with comprehensively. We must ensure that those responsible are brought to book quickly, and that we do not lose this particular shocking issue in a wider investigation that will take a long, long time.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that one of the fundamental flaws in the Waterhouse inquiry lay in its terms of reference? That is why we need a far more widespread inquiry.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I, too, welcome my right hon. Friend’s swift action, in relation to both the independently led review of the Waterhouse inquiry and the involvement of the National Crime Agency, which I think is very important. Does she agree that all the evidence collected by “Newsnight”, by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism and by others should be placed in the hands of the police immediately? That is absolutely essential if justice is to be delivered not only to the victims, but to those who have been unfairly libelled on the internet in recent days.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
There has clearly been institutional blindness to abuse, whether it has taken place in Rochdale council, at the BBC or even within political parties. We now need a Government framework that encourages all victims to come forward, whatever cases are involved. Does the Home Secretary not agree with that?
Mrs May
I am happy to repeat what I said in my statement, and also a minute or so ago. I think that anyone who has been a victim and who feels that there are allegations to be made should make those allegations, but I also think that such people should go to the police, who should be investigating the allegations and ensuring that we can, where possible, bring the perpetrators to justice.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
Tomorrow, after a year-long inquiry, the Education Committee will produce its report on child protection in England. There has understandably been a great deal of focus on the perpetrators in recent weeks, but we focused unapologetically on the victims. May I ask the Home Secretary to look at the report carefully? What is most important—even more important than bringing people to justice—is ensuring that no child suffers as children suffered in past years when, overall, the system let them down.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for coming to the House so promptly, but the problem with what she has said today is that the victims have heard what she has said in the past. They gave evidence to the Waterhouse inquiry, but that evidence was not listened to and did not become public, and no prosecutions—or not enough prosecutions—followed. What can the Home Secretary do to assuage the feelings of those victims, and to make them understand that this inquiry will actually lead to the taking of some responsibility? Is it not about time that we had openness, after all these years, about the evidence that was given to the Waterhouse inquiry?
Mrs May
I would say to anyone who has been a victim and is concerned about what has happened in the past that the whole point of setting up a police investigation under the director general of the National Crime Agency is to enable a body of police to look into the investigations and inquiries that took place previously, and to establish whether they were properly conducted or whether avenues of inquiry or allegations that should have been pursued were not pursued, in order to identify instances in which it will be possible to bring perpetrators to justice. This is not just an inquiry into what has happened; it is a police investigation, and it will focus on precisely that issue.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
On 26 October, the Government voted down proposals to make cover-ups harder and to protect children in care. What measures do they propose to ensure, in particular, that people have a right to complain to someone independent?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman has led me on to territory that is not fully within my remit, but I can say that one of the messages we hope will be conveyed by the action we are taking today is that people who make serious allegations will be listened to and taken seriously, because that issue has arisen in many areas. We want to ensure that people do not feel that they cannot come forward because they will not be taken seriously or because action will be taken against them, and that when child abuse has taken place, it is uncovered and dealt with properly.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Is the Home Secretary asking the security services to review and, where appropriate, share any intelligence that they have relating to cases and places of abuse and to the persons, networks and patterns involved, not just in north Wales but—as other Members have suggested—more widely, including, but not only, in respect of Kincora?
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that many fresh allegations could come from individuals who have hidden the appalling attacks made on them so many years ago, and who will be reluctant to come forward because that would disturb the life that they have built since? Do such people not need the reassurance and protection that can be provided by CEOP, the police and others if they do come forward?
Mrs May
That is an important point. For many victims who wish to come forward, it will not be an easy process but a very painful process, which, as my hon. Friend says, could disrupt the lives that they have been able to build subsequently. However, I assure him that CEOP is well able to deal, and well used to dealing, with people who are in difficult circumstances and who may find it difficult to come forward. That is why I think it so important for CEOP’s ability and specialism to be brought to bear on the investigation.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Given what we now know about the powers of investigation and terms of reference used in the north Wales inquiry, will the Home Secretary have regard to other similar inquiries? I am thinking in particular of the Staffordshire “pindown” inquiry undertaken by Allan Levy. Can the Home Secretary assure the House that if similar questions arise in relation to any other inquiry, they will be encompassed within any further investigations?
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I was a Clwyd county councillor representing Wrexham at the time of the north Wales children homes inquiry, and I was on the panel that looked at the report that was never published. Let me tell the House that its contents were horrendous. Can the Secretary of State assure me and the House that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that the people who came forward can have closure and that those responsible for these dreadful crimes can be punished?
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Home Secretary look into whether there was a systemic problem in north Wales whereby those accused of child abuse without conclusive evidence to prove it were redeployed within the wider world of social services? Although they no longer had direct access to children, they were still part of that system. If that is the case, we will need a much wider inquiry.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
One of the major concerns in all this is the number of credible claims of child abuse that were made to the police about Savile and others that never resulted in charges being brought. Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the work done by HMIC will lead to a report that the House will then have a chance to debate?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. I am sure the House will want to return to this issue either in relation to the HMIC report or anything further that comes out of the investigations being set up today. One issue HMIC will be looking at in a number of forces is whether the police respond properly to these sorts of allegations. As a number of Members have said, one of the more general concerns is that victims often find it difficult to be heard, or do not come forward because they do not think they will be listened to.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
As a former prosecutor of historical sexual abuse cases in care homes and institutions, as well as within the family, I informed the House in a debate some months ago that sexual abuse of our young people is very common and much more prevalent than we appreciate. We need not only an inquiry into any abuse that has been taking place in care homes or other institutions but to take a proper look at what we should do to protect our young children in the future and what rules we should put in place to make it easier for young victims to come forward and tell us what has happened to them. I repeat that it is not only care homes that have sexual abuse problems; there are also sexual abuse problems in the home and the family.
Mrs May
I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s experience in this area, and she raises an important point about the extent of such abuse and the scenarios in which it takes place. She says we should look at the broad issue of child protection. She will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) informing the House that the Education Committee will publish its report on child protection tomorrow, and I am sure the whole House will want to look at that issue very seriously.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend may be aware, rape crisis centres are reporting a considerable increase in activity as victims of historical abuse come forward. While it is welcome that people are responding to how seriously we are all taking these allegations, we do not want to be unable to right the wrong they have suffered by not being in a position to give them adequate support. Will she make sure that the infrastructure we have in place to support rape and abuse victims is satisfactory and supports them to get closure?
Mrs May
I recognise the problem my hon. Friend raises, and only last week I heard directly from representatives of rape crisis centres about the increase in the number of historical victims coming forward. The Government have been able to provide some extra funding for rape crisis centres to put them on a more stable footing and to open some new centres, but I recognise that there are issues in respect of their ability to handle the volume of people coming forward and also the appropriate way to deal with them, as many of the recent therapies have not always satisfied the needs of some of those victims.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
One of the boys involved in this case was persuaded to give evidence only to find that, after going through the horror of churning up the memories of the dreadful things he had suffered, there was no justice at the end of it. He later took his life. I know that the hard-bitten reporters who persuaded him to give evidence on the promise that there would be justice have lived with that sense of injustice ever since. I ask the right hon. Lady to look not only at the fresh evidence but at the evidence that was available at the time and that was almost certainly suppressed by powerful people. Will she look at the evidence produced by Paddy French and the Rebecca Television website on an edition of “Wales this Week” that was never broadcast?
Mrs May
The police investigation will look at the evidence that was available at the time in these historical abuse allegations, and at whether the evidence was properly investigated and whether avenues of inquiry were not pursued that should have been followed up and that could have led to prosecutions. I can therefore say to the hon. Gentleman that the police will, indeed, be looking at that historical evidence. That is part of the job they will be doing.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
I, too, welcome the Home Secretary’s decision today. Does she agree that if there is a single message that must go out from all these inquiries and investigations it is that all victims of child abuse or sexual exploitation who come forward will be believed? Even if there is a successful police investigation and even if the Crown Prosecution Service decides the victim is a credible witness, too often they feel that they are treated like the criminal in court. Will the Home Secretary work with the Director of Public Prosecutions to make sure all special measures are implemented so that that does not happen in any prosecutions that come out of this inquiry?
Mrs May
I am very happy to raise that issue with the Law Officers in relation to what happens in court. We have made considerable progress in dealing with victims of these crimes in court, but I recognise that some still find it very difficult to give evidence, and without that evidence the prosecution is often not possible.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I also welcome the statement and the speed with which the Home Secretary has made it. In recent days she and her officials will have rightly been in close discussion with North Wales police about the work to be done by Keith Bristow, and it is very welcome that the Home Office is offering financial support. When serious issues such as these have to be dealt with in future, what role will police and crime commissioners have in discussions between the Home Office and local police forces? What part will they play in making decisions about future action?
Mrs May
The police and crime commissioner will replace the police authority. There will be certain circumstances in which it is right, as it would have been for the police authority, for the commissioner to be part of initiating a particular piece of work. There will be other circumstances in which it is entirely right for the chief constable to do that.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
I welcome the statement. As a Leeds MP, it has been sad to see how the Jimmy Savile allegations have rocked people’s trust. As a councillor in Wrexham at the time of the inquiry, I remember how it sent shockwaves throughout the community. Even after the inquiry, there was considerable angst among people in the area about the appalling things that had happened. My right hon. Friend has rightly encouraged anyone with accusations to come forward, but there were rumours at the time of people who were too frightened and anxious to do that because of the exposure it may have given to their family and the complete lack of trust they had in the authorities who were supposed to be looking after them in the first place. Can she assure me that those who do come forward will be listened to without fear of recrimination and that everything will be done to support them through a very difficult process?
Mrs May
Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that reassurance. This is why it is particularly important that the single point of contact for people will be CEOP, which has the experience of and expertise in working with victims of these appalling crimes. CEOP has the ability to work with those who find it difficult to come forward, and it will enable them to do so in a way that allows their story to be heard and listened to.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
As a former social worker who worked in child protection in Wales, I welcome the statement, but if this is to be a successful examination, we have to look at why this was able to happen and what the lessons are for today—the lessons will go wider than just the Home Office. May we have an assurance that there will be an examination across Departments as to why we continue to place vulnerable children away from their home areas, and away from their families, their friends and the support networks they trust, where they can have the assurance that if they go back to those networks such revelations will not be buried and hidden? We are failing generations of children by still placing them far away from their families because of cost and because we no longer have local authority children’s homes in which places can be found for vulnerable children.
Mrs May
The hon. Lady raises a wide issue about the way in which we treat children and young people who are in care and are the responsibility of the state. Sadly, this country has an appalling and shameful record on the way in which we have dealt with young people in care, across a range of issues. Obviously, the points that she has made will be noted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, under whose remit this primarily comes.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary tell us more about the terms of reference for the appointee who is looking into whether the Waterhouse inquiry did its job? Surely these must be as wide as possible, given this dreadful case.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for coming to the House to make the statement and to my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary for calling for a single overarching inquiry, as I believe there will be a great deal of support for that in north Wales, as well as in other places.
Most of us cannot even begin to imagine the pain that many victims of this dreadful abuse will be going through today. They will be watching and reliving some of their experiences, which, in many cases, may have been buried for decades. The hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), a former Wrexham councillor, raised this point eloquently. My concern is that many people would like to go to the police to say what happened to them but they fear that the perpetrators are much more powerful than they are. They want to know that we will be on their side. If any Member of the House of Lords were found to be guilty and to be a perpetrator, would the Government support stripping them of their peerage and taking them out of the House of Lords for life?
Mrs May
Obviously, what would happen to any individual who was found to be a perpetrator following any potential criminal prosecution is a matter that would need to be determined at the time. I think that the whole House shares a view on the valid point that the hon. Lady makes about those who fear that they will not be heard; we in this House have responsibility, authority and power, and we should make sure that the message that goes out from us clearly today is that victims will be heard. If someone has been a victim and has allegations to make, I ask them please to bring them forward and take them to the police. The purpose of the investigation is to ensure that we follow all avenues of inquiry, and that victims can see that their voice is heard, that they are listened to and that, where possible, perpetrators are brought to justice.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that she has not had direct contact with the First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. May I suggest she does make contact with him and with the Children’s Commissioner for Wales to ensure that there is full co-operation and the free flow of information across all UK borders—those of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands—in a Welsh inquiry or in an overarching UK inquiry?
Mrs May
As I understand it, a number of conversations are being held with the First Minister of Wales—as I indicated earlier, the Secretary of State for Wales has already been in touch with him. I think there will be discussions about the nature of the review of the Waterhouse inquiry as part of that. Of course, as instances emerge—as allegations are made and victims come forward—it will be necessary to ensure that there is an exchange of information in the investigations. One benefit of being able to bring the director general of the National Crime Agency, along with the assets of SOCA and CEOP, and other force assets, as necessary, into this investigation is to make sure that all the information sharing that is necessary is done.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Keith Bristow is a very highly regarded senior police officer but, as he told the Home Affairs Committee the other week, he is already up to his neck in another serious, high-profile police investigation and he is also trying to establish the National Crime Agency. Is the Home Secretary absolutely confident that he will be able to give this matter the full attention that it obviously demands?
Mrs May
Yes, indeed I am. This investigation provides a good example of the benefits of having a central authority—a central body—that can draw resource from a number of areas, particularly the specialist resource from CEOP and SOCA, and bring that to bear. Before the invitation came from the chief constable of North Wales police we of course discussed with Keith Bristow his ability, and that of the various assets under him, to undertake this, and he is clear that he is able to do so.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
I, too, thank the Home Secretary for her statement. There is a wide difference between police forces in not only how they respond to allegations of child sexual exploitation, but how well they currently assess risks to children in their area. What has happened to these children in the past is terrible and we must do all we can to ensure that we safeguard children from sexual abuse. Does she agree that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary should make it a priority to inspect police forces to see how well they safeguard children in their area?
Mrs May
One issue that HMIC will be examining in its work on Savile and on the lessons learned from this north Wales investigation and, if necessary, others, is how the police deal with these matters. One of HMIC’s tasks will be to ensure that forces are taking those lessons seriously and embedding them in what they do. Of course, once the college of policing is up and running, it will also be a body with responsibility for developing standards and good practice in a number of areas, and I would expect this to be one of those areas.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I, too, thank the right hon. Lady for today’s statement and for the speed with which the Government have brought it to the House. As is clear from the Jimmy Savile abuse and the north Wales care home abuse, paedophile groups were prevalent in many parts of the United Kingdom in the 1970s and 1980s. Organisations that give help to abused children are almost being overwhelmed by the phone calls they are receiving—they are reporting a 100% increase in calls for help from young children. What assistance can she give organisations tasked with helping these vulnerable children?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point about the number of people now coming forward. As more revelations of a historical nature are made, I hope that people will feel better able to come forward to indicate their concerns and the problems they have been dealing with in their lives. As he says, a number of organisations are working with and helping those children. The issue of child protection is one that this House and the Government have taken and will continue to take seriously in terms of ensuring not only that there is child protection in the first place, but that when there are victims they can come forward and are given the support they need.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I served as a member of the inquiry team that looked into and reported on abuse of children in residential care in Edinburgh and it was some of the most harrowing work I have ever done. From that experience, I am very aware of how difficult it is for victims to come forward. I appreciate the importance of CEOP, as well as what the Home Secretary is saying about the police, but many victims will fear that they will not be believed or will worry that they will be let down again. What resources will she put in place for social services departments, the voluntary sector and counselling organisations to enable people to come forward, tell their stories and be supported throughout, whatever action is taken?
Mrs May
It is not for me to put resources into social services departments, as that is obviously another area of responsibility, but we will be considering the issue across Government. I hope that the message that has gone out from this House today to reassure victims that they will be listened to will be heard and that people will have the confidence to come forward. The hon. Lady’s point about wider support for victims has been raised by a number of other Members and I will ensure that it is considered by the responsible Departments.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Education Committee heard worrying evidence that there is still a big problem with older children not being listened to or believed because of what is regarded as difficult behaviour. That is consistent with what happened in Rochdale and with what a number of other Members have said. Notwithstanding that, does the Home Secretary agree that it is very important for child protection to have greater co-operation between the police and other agencies so that children are put at the centre of all child protection work?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about co-operation at a more local level in responding to cases involving individual children. All the evidence suggests that the best protection and results happen when agencies work together and when not just one single agency considers the protective needs of a child. He makes an interesting point that we will take away and consider.
JHA Council
Theresa May Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 25 and 26 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling MP) and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. Frank Mulholland QC also attended the justice day on behalf of the Administration in Scotland. The following items were discussed.
On an EU civil protection mechanism there was broad support for the presidency’s compromise proposal on risk management, which removed the obligation on member states to share risk management plans with the Commission and replaced it with an obligation to apply a risk-based approach to disaster management. There was also some progress on the proposed arrangements for a voluntary pool of pre-committed member states’ assets that would be available for EU operations. However, member states were divided on financial incentives to support the commitment of member states’ assets to the pool, where the UK argued that the Commission’s proposed funding levels for maintenance costs were too high and suggested that EU funding would be better used paying for the one-off costs of adapting resources for use in EU operations, or to co-fund training to aid interoperability. The UK also emphasised that civil protection should remain the primary responsibility of member states and stressed that the nature of the asset pool must be truly voluntary; member states should not have to provide justification when deciding whether to commit assets.
The UK, with some support, also resisted the Commission’s proposal to address capacity gaps through EU funding for buffer capacities. The UK said that there was a danger that this may lead to an overall reduction in capabilities. With no consensus the presidency called for further working group level discussions.
On the common European asylum system (CEAS), the presidency said that the reception conditions directive was due to be approved under the Council’s legislative items; only technical questions remained on the Dublin (III) regulation; negotiations with the European Parliament continued on asylum procedures, and COREPER had agreed the EURODAC package. The UK has opted in to the Dublin (III) regulation and the new EURODAC proposal. The UK has not opted in to the three other directives on reception conditions, asylum procedures and qualifications.
On Syria, the Commission warned that 350,000 people had already left Syria, with around 16,000 asylum applications being lodged in the EU. The EEAS also referred to the United Nations forecast that the number of Syrian refugees could double. Member states supported the establishment of an RPP, arguing for swift progress with a priority to support rapid capacity building in the region.
The United Kingdom noted that asylum claims had increased, albeit from a low base, and it was right that the priority would be to work with UNHCR. The UK had donated £39.5 million of humanitarian aid to Syria and could support the creation of an RPP, with the aim of ensuring protection close to the country of origin, on the condition that resettlement would be a measure of last resort and only after local integration or return is no longer an option. Swiftly establishing a broader dialogue with Turkey was another essential component of supporting the region. The presidency called upon the Commission to continue preparatory work of an RRP.
The Council adopted the Council conclusions on the protection of soft targets from terrorist activities. The UK has supported the presidency’s initiative, particularly in relation to the sharing of experience and best practice in protecting soft targets.
The presidency presented its progress report on the implementation of the 2011 Council conclusions on enhancing the link between the internal and external aspects of counter-terrorism. The European External Action Service underlined the importance of a coherent approach given, it argued, that the most significant threats to member states all have links outside the EU. The counter terrorism co-ordinator acknowledged the significant progress made but called for the inclusion of counter-terrorism in all funding instruments, enhanced engagement in CT projects in third countries by the EU agencies, and the involvement of DG Justice on the judicial aspects.
The Commission gave a presentation by the Commission on the illicit trafficking of firearms, undertaking to produce a communication early next year.
Over lunch there was a discussion on intra-EU relocation of beneficiaries of international protection, resulting in general support for a voluntary mechanism. The UK emphasised the importance of practical co-operation as the expression of “solidarity” rather than relocation, keeping any minimal relocation voluntary, and the need to ensure any proposal for action in this area did not go ahead until it could be demonstrated that the lessons of the previous project (in Malta) had been learnt.
The mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) started with an update on the implementation of the second generation Schengen information system (SIS II). Comprehensive testing phase had been successfully completed. The UK continues its support for the continuation of the current SIS II project.
On Bulgarian and Romanian accession to the Schengen acquis, the presidency and Commission expressed regret that the Council was still not in a position to agree given both countries had fulfilled the technical criteria to join. The UK accepts that Romania and Bulgaria have met the technical criteria to join the Schengen area.
On the implementation of Greece’s national action plan on asylum reform and migration management, Greece, the Commission, Frontex and the European Asylum Support Office provided an update on progress. The UK thanked the Greek authorities, the Commission and other agencies for their work, but noted that urgent needs remained and a priority should be for the Greek Government to make use of available EU funding. The UK had deployed a national expert to Athens to support the authorities on accessing funds and had offered support in translating materials. The UK looked forward to seeing a sustainable plan in place, with clear benchmarks, and would consider further assistance to Greece on the basis of a refreshed action plan. Others agreed, with a particular emphasis on clear benchmarks. The presidency agreed to return to this at the December Justice and Home Affairs Council when the action plan will be revised.
There were updates on the EU action plan on migratory pressures (the road map) from the Commission, Eurosur and Frontex. The key tools and risks were discussed. The UK welcomed the presidency’s report noting that the most important objective was to take real and concrete measures to tackle illegal immigration including the abuse of free movement. Momentum had been seen in several areas, including on returns, trafficking and co-operation with Turkey, and the UK highlighted the Commission’s recent work on the sham marriage handbook as a positive example of practical action. The UK highlighted a recent case in which an individual was imprisoned for four years for his role in an organised criminal conspiracy to conduct sham marriages between EU nationals and third country nationals. The UK noted the links between the priority areas on the road map, including the effects of visa liberalisation from the western Balkans, where the UK had detected a significant number of Albanians trying to cross the UK border illegally with fraudulently obtained identification documents. The UK was one of the co-drivers of action on abuse of free movement by third country nationals, as set out in the road map, and we continue to work with other member states, the Commission and EU partners to seek further practical progress in this area.
The presidency introduced the Commission’s third annual report on post-visa liberalisation monitoring of the western Balkans published in August. The Commission accepted that certain member states had seen an increase in unfounded asylum applications from these countries, but said if the recommendations in the report were applied correctly it would ensure effective implementation of the visa agreements. There was agreement that the revised 539 regulation (listing the countries whose nationals must be in possession of a visa when crossing the Schengen external borders) which included the long called for “visa safeguard clause” (temporary suspension of visa waiver) must be swiftly adopted. Although the UK does not participate in this visa liberalisation, it supports the measures being introduced to combat abuse of such agreements. The presidency agreed to closely monitor the situation.
The justice day began with the presidency seeking views on the scope of the powers of extended confiscation in the draft directive creating minimum standards on the freezing and confiscation of proceeds of crime. The presidency put forward four options for narrowing the scope of the extended confiscation regime, all of which attracted some support from different delegations. However, the presidency concluded that the way forward was to limit the requirements by reference to “economic benefit” and “serious crimes”. The UK has not opted in to the proposed directive but is engaging in the negotiations with a view to considering opting in at the post-adoption stage.
The presidency then sought member states’ views on ne bis in idem (namely that a person should not be pursued a second time for something on which he has already been legitimately convicted or acquitted) in the context of the proposal on criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market manipulation. The majority of member states considered that it did not require a prescriptive solution at EU level. The presidency concluded that they would proceed not to seek to “solve” the ne bis in idem issue through the operative text of the instruments. There was also a discussion on the absence of minimum levels of criminal penalties in the draft directive.
The presidency provided a state of play update on the general data protection regulation and set out its approach to negotiations going forward, while also stating the intention to seek a partial general approach in December on the thematic issues of delegated and implementing acts and administrative burdens. There was also a broader discussion about instrument type and whether a directive was in fact more appropriate than a regulation given its ability to provide harmonisation, but also flexibility where appropriate.
The Commission introduced its proposed directive on the protection of the financial interests of the EU by criminal law (the PFI directive) which it published on 23 July this year. There was discussion on the legal base of the draft directive with the Council legal service stating their view that the current one was not correct. The Commission noted that they would await the views of the European Parliament’s legal service. The first detailed discussions at working group will take place on 30 and 31 October.
Under AOB, the presidency reported that two trilogues on the European investigation order had been scheduled for November; the Commission expressed support for the European Parliament’s view that the balance achieved in the Council general approach on this instrument was wrong.
There was also a presentation on the state of the drug problem in Europe by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA). The presidency also introduced the final report on the fifth round of mutual evaluations on financial crime and financial investigations. The presidency declared that the report would be discussed by the Standing Committee on Internal Security in November.
Over lunch Ministers discussed how protection for debtors could be improved in the European account preservation order. The majority of those intervening supported courts approving preservation orders in all cases. However the discussion was inconclusive about whether creditors should be obliged to provide security when applying for an order or whether a liability rule was needed to cover compensation to the debtor for any damage caused by an order.