Fisheries Council

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is really important that we build on good work, such as the fisheries science partnerships, which involve scientists going out on fishing vessels and fishermen meeting scientists to discuss how to approach this, as information on discards can then be dealt with in an informed way. That helps me in our negotiations with the Commission, so I commend the work being done by fishermen in his constituency on reducing discards and ask him to keep me informed.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I know from personal experience that the post of UK Fisheries Minster is a lonely one and I congratulate my hon. Friend on what he has managed to achieve. This ludicrous system whereby decisions are taken year on year on the basis of sleep deprivation simply has to stop. Will he give the House a written statement in the new year on how he sees the reform of the common fisheries policy moving forward? This year two maritime nations—Denmark and Cyprus—will hold the presidency of the Council of the European Union, so surely there is an opportunity to move to regional fisheries management during their year.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his help and advice as I have progressed in this job. It is useful to have Members of the House who know what it is like to go through this charade—I use the word carefully—of a process, which requires decisions to be made after two or three days of heavy negotiations that run right through the night. We must have meaningful reform and it must have regionalisation at its heart. We need to be able to define in the new year exactly what we expect when working with partners in the sea basins around the UK. I pledge to keep the House informed of our progress.

Water White Paper

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. What are required now are short questions and short answers, because we must move on. That is the way it has to be done.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Birmingham has a greater length of canals than Venice, and the country as a whole has an extensive canal network, so what assessment has my hon. Friend made of its potential to link those parts of the country with above-average rainfall with those parts that need more water?

[Richard Benyon]

I have looked very carefully at that issue, and as my hon. Friend will know we are in the process of a very exciting change in how we manage our waterways, in transferring British Waterways to the charitable sector. There remains the opportunity to use our canals to move water around, but the sad truth is that water is an extremely heavy substance, and it is very carbon-intensive to move it very far. The economic assessments that I have seen state that to move water much more than 30 miles is uneconomic, but through a range of different measures we start to see that, with interconnectors, we can incentivise water companies to use a variety of means to move water from neighbouring areas to theirs. Then, we can start moving a trickle of water from areas of high rainfall to areas of low rainfall.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I think I can confirm to the hon. Lady’s satisfaction that we have no plans to do anything about training aids for cats. Indeed, the research on dogs that I referred to relates only to collars, not to what is known as the invisible fence. We therefore have no such proposals.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend explain why the Home Office has responsibility for dangerous dogs and he seems to have responsibility for domestic cats?

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[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

1. What the authority is for the policy of the Church of England that services of blessing should not be conducted in church premises for those who register civil partnerships.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

In its pastoral statement of July 2005, the House of Bishops affirmed that clergy of the Church of England should not provide services of blessing for those who register a civil partnership. The Church of England’s response to the Government’s consultation document on civil partnerships on religious premises, which was produced earlier this year, reflected that policy and was approved by the Archbishops Council and by the Standing Committee of the House of Bishops.

[Mr Bradshaw]

I am grateful for that reply. Given that when the law changes to allow civil partnerships to be conducted on religious premises many Church of England priests and parishes will want to conduct such ceremonies, would it not be better for the Church of England to do what it did when it first allowed the remarriage of divorcees in church, and allow individual priests and parishes to make the decision?

[Tony Baldry]

In fairness, I would contend that the Church of England, led by its bishops, has to be free to determine its own stance on matters of doctrine and ethics. The Government have said that the new option to register civil partnerships in places of worship must be entirely voluntary. That means that those who think that the Church of England should opt in need to win the argument within the Church.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

2. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to promote church tourism.

[Tony Baldry]

I was delighted recently to visit with my hon. Friend some of the historic churches in her constituency. As she is aware, the General Synod passed a motion encouraging all dioceses to support church tourism and to link with the wider national church tourism strategy. The Church is working closely with its entire group of dioceses and with the Churches Tourism Association to assist local churches in encouraging visitors, especially in the run-up to the Olympics, the diamond jubilee and Open Churches Sunday.

[Laura Sandys]

I thank my hon. Friend for his trip to my constituency to see some of the wonderful churches in east Kent, which are great tourist attractions. Is he able to introduce me to the people who run tourism at Canterbury cathedral, which attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors? They might be able to do more to move some of those tourists to other beautiful churches in east Kent.

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. Our cathedrals attract thousands of visitors each year. We need to encourage those who visit cathedrals such as Canterbury to visit the many fantastic churches full of history and heritage in the surrounding areas, such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency.

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was asked—

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[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

4. What steps the Church of England has taken to support food banks.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

The Church is heavily engaged in food banks across the country. There is a national network of food banking centres in towns and cities. Food banks give out nutritionally balanced emergency food to people in crisis. Food banks also offer additional support to put people in touch with relevant agencies that can offer further support.

[Andrew Selous]

In South West Bedfordshire, churches in Dunstable and Houghton Regis have just agreed to set up a food bank, and churches in Leighton Buzzard run a homeless service. Churches in those towns also support street pastors. Churches throughout the constituency are taking part in the “Let’s Stick Together” initiative run by Care for the Family. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is an amazing record of achievement in contributing to our local community?

[Tony Baldry]

I hope that churches across the country will seek to engage with and support their local communities whenever they can. The churches that my hon. Friend cites in his constituency are an excellent example. Local churches can support food banking in several ways, including through the direct giving of food donations, and through volunteering and working where necessary to step in to assist those in need. I hope that we can do that right across England.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman join me in congratulating the Bishop of London on his support for the “Feeding the 5,000” event in Trafalgar square last Friday? That organisation looks at how we can use the phenomenal amount of food that goes to waste in this country to feed people who are in food poverty.

[Tony Baldry]

The Bishop of London’s leadership on that initiative is excellent, and it is an excellent initiative.

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

5. Whether the Church Commissioners have considered English Heritage’s guidance on (a) theft of metal from church buildings and (b) replacing lead with modern materials.

[Tony Baldry]

The theft of metal from churches continues to be a very serious problem. About 10 churches a day suffer from theft. Insurance payouts for the theft of metal from places of worship have increased by 70%, and according to the Association of Chief Police Officers, the full cost of metal theft to the domestic economy across all sectors is upwards of £770 million.

[George Hollingbery]

The latest English Heritage guidance note on the theft of metals from church buildings states that

“support for the use of…non-traditional materials…would be exceptional.”

However, the guidance note on solar panel installations is relatively liberal. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is hard to reconcile the two, and does he understand why Hambleside Danelaw, an alternative roofing manufacturer in my constituency, is clear that the guidance is not in the interests of churches, their congregations or the wider good?

[Tony Baldry]

On the substantive issue of the theft of lead, the Church remains convinced that making cash scrap metal transactions illegal is the single move that will have the greatest impact on reducing that crime, and it is pleased to see that proposal gaining wider acceptance. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday that the answer

“lies in looking at how the scrap metal market is currently regulated.”—[Official Report, 23 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 296.]

I undertake to investigate in detail my hon. Friend’s specific point about Hambleside Danelaw, and I shall write to him.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the greatest tragedies about the loss of metal from war memorials, whether they be on Church property or elsewhere, is that there is currently no central record kept of the people whose names are recorded on them? Will he undertake to ask the Church Commissioners to work with the Imperial War museum, and indeed the Ministry of Defence, to provide a central register of those whose names appear on war memorials?

[Tony Baldry]

I would hope that in the run-up to 2014 to 2018, the centenary of the first world war, churches across the country will not only work on updating, conserving and repairing war memorials but give thought, as many communities are, to updating the records of those who lost their lives in the first and second world wars. The theft of inscriptions from war memorials is a detestable offence, and a further example of the need to tackle the theft of metals as urgently as possible.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

6. What support the Church Commissioners are providing to Christians in Pakistan.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church of England is very aware of the issues facing the Christian community in Pakistan. Two dioceses in the Church of England have strong diocesan links in Pakistan, the diocese of Manchester with Lahore and the diocese of Wakefield with Faisalabad. Four members of the Manchester diocese are currently visiting Pakistan. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s Pakistan focus group was formed in 2006 to keep him informed of issues of significance in relation to Pakistan, to assist him in representing his views appropriately in Pakistan, England and elsewhere, and to maintain positive relations in support of the Church of Pakistan.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that full answer. What initiatives have been taken to increase awareness among Pakistani-background Christians and Muslims in the UK of how they can support inter-faith religious harmony?

[Tony Baldry]

The Archbishop of Canterbury is very much concerned about the importance of good relations among Pakistani-background Christians and Muslims in this country. When Christian leaders from Pakistan visit the UK they are introduced to prominent Pakistani-background Muslims so that they are aware of the situation, and to encourage them to use their influence and contacts in Pakistan to support persecuted religious communities. The Church of England sent a delegation of both Christians and Muslims from the UK to Pakistan in 2009 on the invitation of the Government of Pakistan, to visit Christian and Muslim community leaders, Government Ministers and officials.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

7. What assessment the Church Commissioners made of the number of dioceses which have voted in favour of the proposed legislation on women and the episcopacy.

[Tony Baldry]

The result of the reference of the draft legislation to the dioceses was that out of a total of 44 dioceses, 42 approved of women and the episcopacy.

[Diana Johnson]

How will the exceptional level of support from both the laity and the clergy be reflected in the passage of the legislation through the House?

[Tony Baldry]

I think that it is clear that there is overwhelming support for women bishops. The outcome of the recent vote in the dioceses will be reported formally to the General Synod in February, following which it will be asked to approve any necessary final adjustments to the drafting of the legislation. I certainly hope that during the lifetime of this Parliament it will be possible for me to bring forward a Measure to the House so that we can approve women bishops in the Church of England.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

8. What discussions the Church Commissioners have had on the effects of demonstrations outside St Paul’s Cathedral.

[Tony Baldry]

I understand from the Bishop of London and the chapter of St Paul’s cathedral that they are in daily contact with the City of London corporation and the City of London police, as well as with the protestors. The chapter of St Paul’s and the Church are committed to working towards peaceful solutions with the protestors and the authorities concerned.

[Mr Winnick]

Would not that be the best way, to have a continued dialogue, bearing in mind the fact that many if not all of the demonstrators and the people who have set in—I have visited them—feel very strongly indeed about the growing inequality of wealth in our country?

[Tony Baldry]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. Those concerns have been well reflected by the comments made by the dean and chapter of St Paul’s.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

The London demonstration seems to be adding to an air of tension between Church and state, and there are other examples of bishops becoming much more involved in Government policy. What role can my hon. Friend play to calm that quite worrying situation?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend must remember and recognise that both archbishops and a number of bishops are Members of the other place: they are Members of Parliament and are entitled to have their views heard. I would suggest that every archbishop and diocesan bishop is a significant leader within their community. They are entitled to speak out and be heard by the country and the House. The Church of England is a national church and the bishops are part of the national voice of this country.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

9. How many churches plan to hold community celebrations for the London 2012 Olympics.

[Tony Baldry]

The ecumenical organisation More than Gold has been set up to help churches to engage with the Olympics. There are more than 400 Church of England More than Gold champions, which means that more than 400 churches are already organising activities using More than Gold resources.

[John Mann]

Would it not be appropriate for churches across the country to follow the magnificent lead of the joint churches in Bassetlaw, who are at the heart of preparing Olympic participatory activities, and are inviting the community into church grounds so that the Olympics can be fully and actively celebrated?

[Tony Baldry]

That is a fantastic example by the church in Bassetlaw, and I hope that every church will replicate it in all sorts of ways, such as by providing volunteers for the Olympics and hospitality programmes, hosting one of the many mission teams that are coming from overseas to help to give extra impact to activities, and linking hands with other churches to run community festivals and hospitality centres. I very much hope that every church in England will consider how they can use the Olympics as an opportunity to engage with the wider community.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for that. The House will be aware that the Commission has just published its proposals to reform the CAP, and I am afraid that they are disappointing. We will do all we can to improve them. We need agriculture that is competitive, market oriented and successful, to attract new entrants, but at first sight—we need to do more analysis—the Commission’s proposals seem extremely bureaucratic and do not move us in the right direction.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions she has had with (a) the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport and (b) Natural England on the effects of bats on churches and other listed buildings.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The Secretary of State has met church building representatives to discuss the issues, and Natural England is working closely with them to find solutions to difficult cases. We have had no discussions with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on the issue.

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend’s family have the patronage of the livings of a number of churches, so he will know more than most Members about the damage done by bat faeces and urine to church fabric. May I exhort him to encourage Natural England to do much more to work with English Heritage to try to ensure that, while bats continue to have their statutory protection, they do not have it at the cost of irreparable damage to our parish churches?

[Richard Benyon]

As someone who loves bats and is a reasonably regular churchgoer, I suppose that I am qualified to talk about this. There is a serious point: of course, we want to abide by the habitats directive and, in most cases, working with Natural England, we can resolve these issues locally, but it would be ridiculous if churches that have been used for worship for hundreds of years become unusable owing to a too-close following of the directive. There must be a common-sense way forward. I am happy to work with my hon. Friend in his capacity as the Second Church Estates Commissioner to ensure that we have sensible policies on the issue.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

As I mentioned earlier, this was a decision by the agency, but I understand that it was discussed with the equivalent agency and the chief vet in Wales. No sites are being closed. As I said, this is purely about the laboratory aspect, not the post-mortem aspect. I agree that 24 hours extra delay may be unacceptable, but that is not what is expected; we expect timeliness to remain as it is.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

T8. Can my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State confirm when she expects to receive the final report of the Independent Panel on Forestry?

[Mrs Spelman]

I am pleased to say that the chairman of the panel, the Bishop of Liverpool, James Jones, has recovered well from his operation and is back at work. That has not in any way affected the timetable for the publication of the final report, which will still happen next spring. When speaking to Bishop James Jones last week, he assured me that the interim report will be received by the Department in November.

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[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

1. What assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the potential opportunities for the Church of England to work with other parts of the community to attract public funds for local infrastructure investment.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

The Church of England and the Church Commissioners will always take every opportunity to work with local partners for the benefit of local communities.

[Julian Smith]

Ripon cathedral plays a really important role in our local community, bringing together community groups and developing the economy of Ripon as a whole. Will my hon. Friend pass on the positive feedback about the cathedral’s role, which could be an example for other cathedral towns across England?

[Tony Baldry]

Absolutely, I would of course be very happy to do that. Ripon cathedral is the oldest English cathedral—its crypt dates back to 672—and for centuries it has been at the heart of Ripon. I hope that every possible local organisation will work with the dean and chapter to help enhance the vitality of Ripon. The Church Commissioners will certainly engage positively in whatever way we can to support that.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had with the Home Office on reform of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 for the purposes of reducing the incidence of theft of metal from churches.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

6. What resources the Church Commissioners plan to make available to churches that have been subject to theft or vandalism.

[Tony Baldry]

I shall place in the Library a copy of the Church Buildings Council’s report on metal theft, which concludes that the 1964 Act is no longer fit for purpose.

[Mr Nuttall]

As my hon. Friend will be aware, the theft of metal from churches is costing them an estimated £1 million a month. Has he yet had any indication whether the recommendation made in the Church Buildings Council’s working party report of March this year—that cash payments by scrap yards for metals such as lead should be prohibited—will be accepted?

[Tony Baldry]

We are working very closely with Ministers to achieve that, and we have a meeting in the very near future with the noble Lord Henley to try to take it forward. I think that there is general agreement among everyone who has examined the matter that we need to take cash out of the transactions. It is too easy at present for people to strip churches of lead at night, go to a scrap yard the next day, get cash and walk away. The people who are suffering from that are in the most vulnerable communities in our society.

[Mr Sheerman]

The hon. Gentleman will know of St John’s in Birkby, which had its steeple pulled down by people stripping the lead from the roof, and of the immense cost that the parish incurred. I certainly agree that we need to amend the scrap metal legislation, but we also need to consider the level of compensation and insurance premiums.

[Tony Baldry]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The thieves, in that case, simply wanted the lightning conductor, but in trying to get it they almost destroyed the whole church, because they pulled the steeple down into the church. One of the penalties for churches that have their lead stripped is that the insurers thereafter will refuse to insure them, so all the burden falls on local communities and parishes. This is an epidemic that we need to grasp and solve. It simply cannot continue.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

In my constituency, St Brides church in Old Trafford suffered the theft of its church bell. One of the reasons we are particularly vulnerable to such offences is the presence of a large scrap metal yard in the constituency. Will the hon. Gentleman join me in putting pressure on the Home Office not just to amend the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, but to ensure that the police are adequately resourced to deal with these increasing levels of crime?

[Tony Baldry]

I am glad to say to the hon. Lady that I think that police forces up and down the country are now taking this issue seriously, not just because of the theft of lead from churches, but because of the theft of copper from railway signalling devices. The theft of metals has now gone significantly up the agenda of police forces across the country.

The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—

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[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

4. What assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the effects of bats on churches; and if he will make a statement.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

I am sure that many in the House will be concerned about the damage done by bats in church buildings. Although all species of bats have statutory protection, considerable damage has been caused to church fabric by bat droppings and bat urine.

[Miss McIntosh]

My hon. Friend is familiar with, and has taken up, the case of St Hilda’s church, but it is unacceptable that the congregation is not allowed to pray and worship in the church because the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Natural England are taking a leisurely pace to exclude the bats from the church. The bats would not be excluded completely, but would have a different access point. May I ask him to use his good offices to speed this procedure along so that the congregation can worship normally in St Hilda’s church?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend and the whole House will have heard the comments at the Dispatch Box earlier from the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon). I think that the House will recognise that he acknowledged that there is a problem here that needs to be addressed. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), who chairs the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, will work with the church authorities, Natural England and all of us in trying to strike a much better balance and in making appropriate representations to the Law Commission to ensure that we do not gold-plate the habitats directive in a way that prejudices people against bats.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

5. What reports he has received on the outcome of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s recent visit to Africa.

[Tony Baldry]

The Archbishop of Canterbury, as spiritual leader to the worldwide Anglican community, was invited to make a pastoral visit to Malawi, Zimbabwe and Zambia by the Archbishop of Central Africa, the right reverend Albert Chama. The purpose of the visit was primarily to meet with bishops, clergy and parishioners to celebrate the life and ministry of the Anglican Church in the region and to strengthen ties with the Anglican communion. In the course of his visit the Archbishop of Canterbury met the Presidents of Malawi, Zimbabwe—Robert Mugabe—and Zambia, and the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, Morgan Tsvangirai.

[Richard Graham]

I am grateful for that response. Several of my constituents in Gloucester have told me that they thought that the archbishop’s visit showed real moral courage. How much confidence does my hon. Friend have in Zimbabwe Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai’s pledge to ensure that the rule of law is applied and to allow Christians to worship in peace?

[Tony Baldry]

I would hope that the whole House would share that view about the courage of the Archbishop of Canterbury. By his preaching and presence in Africa he will have given immense encouragement to the persecuted Church there. The Archbishop of Canterbury in Africa has made a direct challenge to tyranny and given words of hope for the oppressed. The archbishop made it clear to President Mugabe that he should use his powers as Head of State to guarantee the security of Zimbabweans who worship with the Anglican Church and put an end to illegal and unacceptable behaviour—beatings and other degradation—that has been visited upon people simply because they are Christians.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

On one of the very few occasions when I can agree with Conservative Members, let me say that many of us are deeply impressed by the way the Archbishop of Canterbury spoke the truth to Mugabe and urged him to stop the violence and thuggery that has unfortunately occurred over the past few years. The Archbishop of Canterbury has undoubtedly given a tremendous lead to decency.

[Tony Baldry]

This is one of the few occasions when I have agreed with the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that the whole House would do so too.

The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—

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[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

9. What support the Church Commissioners are providing to Coptic Christians in Egypt.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

Church of England mission agencies, as well as the diocese linked with the region, continue to provide much needed pastoral support to Egypt’s beleaguered Christian minority. Bishop Mouneer, the Anglican Bishop of Egypt, North Africa and the Horn of Africa, is based in Cairo and is in regular contact with the leadership of the Egyptian Coptic Church.

[Fiona Bruce]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that, if the new regime in Egypt is to be taken seriously, it must ensure that the murder, victimisation and torture of Christians there ceases?

[Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree with that, and I am glad to say that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has made exactly that point to the Egyptian authorities this week. He has told them that they cannot be taken seriously unless they afford proper protection to the Christian minority in Egypt, which, after all, forms something like 20% of the population of that country.

[Mr Speaker]

There is just time for Mr Simon Hughes.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker. There is always just time.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Church Commissioners to work with the Government to ensure that the issue of Christian minorities not only in Egypt but in other countries such as China where they are being heavily persecuted will be taken up internationally and by the United Kingdom Government?

[Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree with that. In fairness to the Foreign Secretary, he has been a doughty champion of the need to protect persecuted Christians throughout the world, whether in Pakistan, China or Egypt. It is very important that religious freedom should involve freedom for everyone, irrespective of their religion and of where they wish to practise their religion.

Common Fisheries Policy

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about decentralisation. If I have a disappointment, it is about the tone of the document. I do not think that there is quite as much as we had hoped for on regionalisation and decentralisation. What do we mean by that? It means that we want fisheries to be managed on an ecosystem basis. It means that when it comes to the Irish sea, for example, we are talking with the Irish Government and devolved Governments to try to match what we know is a complex mixed fishery; and, when it comes to his constituency, we are proceeding in a similar way on the North sea. We will push hard for that, because we absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman that top-down micro-management, under which net sizes and other technical measures are decided in Brussels, has failed and would be a disaster if allowed to continue.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that if most of the 700,000 people who signed the Fish Fight petition saw a headline with the words “discards” and “ban” in it, they might think, “Great! Job done,” but he and I know that it is not as simple as that. In order for the measure to be effective, particularly in mixed fisheries, we need to be nuanced and careful. That is why we have to ensure that we work closely, as he said, through the system of management that we develop and that we do not just allow a problem that at the moment happens at sea to be converted to a landfill problem, which could happen unless we are imaginative.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

One cannot ring-fence European fisheries. Will my hon. Friend update the House on what is happening on the fisheries partnership agreements with developing countries, and how that might affect what happens in EU waters?

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

1. What recent reports he has received on the activities of the rural committee of the Church Commissioners.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

In the past 12 months, the rural affairs group has worked on a variety of issues including bovine tuberculosis, the Localism Bill, common agricultural policy reform, lay ministry in rural churches and vocations and training in rural ministry.

[Miss McIntosh]

I take this opportunity to congratulate the rural committee on the work that it does. Can my hon. Friend suggest ways in which we in this place can work more closely with the committee as it goes about its business?

[Tony Baldry]

The Church’s rural committee would certainly welcome a closer working relationship with my hon. Friend and the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which she so ably chairs. I encourage all bishops and suffragan bishops to take the opportunity of the parliamentary recess to get in touch with parliamentary colleagues from all parties to discuss how our colleagues can learn more from and work more closely with the Church, whether that is in rural areas, in urban areas or on any project.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Ben Bradshaw. He is not here, so I call Sir Peter Bottomley.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

3. Whether the Church Commissioners were consulted on the choice of Ministers to be invited to contribute to the edition of the New Statesman edited by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Tony Baldry]

No.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

May I ask my hon. Friend to thank the archbishop for sending the magazine and his articles to all Members of Parliament? I also recommend, through him, that The Daily Telegraph and the BBC actually read those articles. The archbishop was aware that a reader might say that to give a page to the Work and Pensions Secretary and five pages to an interview with the Foreign Secretary might show too much establishment leaning. The criticism of the archbishop is, as Lucy Winkett put it, new

“like the waves, old like the sea.”

[Tony Baldry]

I shall certainly convey my hon. Friend’s comments to the Archbishop of Canterbury. I will also say to my hon. Friend, who has been in this House for some considerable time, that sometimes what is heard is as important as what is said.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

4. What recent assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the effect of fuel prices on the financial position of the Church of England.

[Tony Baldry]

Fuel prices impact on clergy, and dioceses are aware of the Government increase in mileage rates from April 2011.

[Robert Halfon]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the high cost of fuel is having a huge impact on the community and charitable work done by the Church? Will the Church play its part in asking the Government to delay the 3p inflationary rise in fuel tax that is planned for January?

[Tony Baldry]

Rising prices impact on us all, including those who undertake charitable and pastoral duties in the community. The Church of England will increase the mileage rate for staff and clergy, but we try to encourage them to travel by public transport wherever possible. I am sure I speak for all Members of the House when I say that we hope that charities and religious groups will endeavour to maintain their charitable and pastoral provision despite the change in fuel tax.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

5. What plans the Church Commissioners have for the future of St. Paul’s church, Truro and its hall.

[Tony Baldry]

The commissioners are actively working to find a suitable new use for St Paul’s church. Preparations are under way for placing it on the open market. The commissioners are not specifically involved with the hall, which is on a separate site owned by the Truro diocesan board of finance.

[Sarah Newton]

The church hall is a valuable community resource that is much appreciated by the homeless people of Truro, who receive a warm welcome and freshly cooked meals from the Truro homeless action group. Will my hon. Friend work with me to enable community groups to have the opportunity to secure the hall for the continued benefit of the community of Truro?

[Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree that Church of England buildings, whether they be churches or church halls, should wherever possible be open to the widest possible use by the greater community. That is part of the Church’s national mission, and I think that before any church or church building is declared redundant or sold every possible effort should be made to see that it is retained for community use. I will most certainly convey my hon. Friend’s comments to the diocese of Truro.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

6. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to encourage marriages in Church of England buildings.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church of England values the sacrament of marriage, it is keen to encourage marriage in churches wherever possible and it has recently changed the rules to enable couples to marry more easily when they would like to marry in church.

[John Howell]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that this is not just about buildings, but that organists and musicians, of whom I confess to being one, make a valuable contribution, and that the Church should promote those aspects as a package to encourage church weddings?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend was a much-respected organist and director of church music, and I think that one of the glories of England is church music, choirs and organ music. One reason many people want to marry in Church of England churches is the contribution of the choir and the organist.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I have married more people than, I think, anybody else in this House, and it was always great fun marrying couples in church, but the archbishop’s special licence system involved a lot of people, frankly, telling fibs about where they lived, so I hope that that will be reformed. Would it not help if the Church of England decided that it would like now to hold civil partnership ceremonies in its churches?

[Tony Baldry]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, that was a matter of much debate during the passage of the Equalities Bill both in this House and in the other place. It was resolved that there would be no change unless the General Synod agreed, and that is where the position lies today.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

7. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to promote tourism focused on church buildings and church heritage.

[Tony Baldry]

The General Synod passed a motion encouraging all dioceses to support church tourism and to link with a wider national church tourism strategy. The cathedral and church buildings division of the Church of England encourages best practice, including opening churches, welcoming visitors and providing interpretation, and it works closely with partners including the Churches Tourism Association, Cathedrals Plus and the Churches Conservation Trust.

[Laura Sandys]

My hon. Friend and I share a great passion for tourism organisations and our churches working together more effectively. Does he recognise that in east Kent we have a set of 10th, 11th and 12th century churches marking St Augustine’s way, and will he join me in making a representation to the Church of England to ensure that visitors understand and enjoy those churches more?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend is fortunate in representing a fantastic constituency, which, among its other attributes, was the place where St Augustine landed. I could cite at least three good examples of church tourism in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but, as I was accused during the last Church Commissioners questions of loquaciousness, I will resist that temptation and simply say that I will encourage the Bishop of Dover and, indeed, other bishops to ensure that hon. Members know of the efforts being made in all our constituencies to promote church tourism, because it is very important to make sure that as many people as possible can enjoy the heritage of our church buildings.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

8. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to support the teaching of religious education in schools.

[Tony Baldry]

Every diocese in the Church of England supports RE teaching in its schools, and most diocesan education advisers also support and provide materials for the teaching of RE in non-Church schools.

[Fiona Bruce]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. As I believe he knows, a petition with 140,000 signatures expressing concern at the exclusion of RE from the English baccalaureate was presented to Downing street yesterday. One unintended consequence of that exclusion is that the number of pupils applying to study RE at GCSE has dropped significantly, as have application rates for RE teacher training—by some 25%. What action can the Church Commissioners take to ensure that the study of RE is properly resourced, bearing in mind that it is still a statutory—that is, compulsory—subject for pupils in school up to 16 years old?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend raises a serious point about RE in the E-bac. She will know that the Bishop of Oxford, who chairs the National Society—in other words, he is the lead bishop on education in the Church of England—has, on several occasions, made clear the concerns of the Church of England, and indeed other faith groups, to ministerial colleagues in the Department for Education. I heard the Minister with responsibility for schools say in a debate in Westminster Hall that he would reflect on those representations, and we look forward to hearing what decisions Ministers take in respect of RE in the E-bac.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

9. How many diocesan synods have voted (a) for and (b) against the proposed legislation on women bishops.

[Tony Baldry]

Notification has been received from six diocesan synods, and I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady that so far all the dioceses that have voted have voted to approve the legislation.

[Diana Johnson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. Given the overwhelming support for women bishops, may I urge him to introduce legislation at the very earliest opportunity so that we can enshrine in law equality between men and women as bishops?

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Lady knows that I share her aspiration. Let me explain this process to the House, because I look forward to the support of all Members of the House when the Measure comes before Parliament in due course. Every diocese, of which there are 44, has to vote. Six have voted; colleagues can work out the maths on the rest that still have to do so. Once they have all voted, there will be a meeting of the General Synod, which I hope in due course will approve the measure so that it can come before Parliament to enable the consecration of women as bishops. I certainly hope that in the lifetime of this Parliament, Parliament will approve that measure.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

10. What assessment the Church Commissioners have made of recent trends in the proportion of Church of England congregations that are (a) from black and Asian minority ethnic groups, (b) women, (c) disabled people and (d) from low-income groups.

[Tony Baldry]

The latest figures collected in relation to the hon. Gentleman’s question were part of a 2007 national parish congregation diversity survey. They show that about 5% of Church of England core congregations are from minority ethnic backgrounds and about 65% are women. Figures for disabled people are kept by dioceses individually and are not held centrally.

[John Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that things have moved on somewhat since 2007 and that, particularly in the more deprived areas, there will be a hardening of the problems of meeting the cuts that are going to hit them. I believe that there is a very strong place for the Church in those areas in particular. Will he ensure that the Church does the work that it should be doing in trying to attract these people through its doors?

[Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question, because it gives me the opportunity to make the position clear. The Church Commissioners have £5.5 billion under investment, of which we disburse about £100 million every year to the Church. Much of that goes to poorer dioceses with inner-city and deprived areas so that the Church can fulfil its mission to such areas and to those who need the greatest support. We see that as a very important part of our role and of the Church’s national mission.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mark Pritchard]

My hon. Friend makes an accurate and pertinent point, which, if I may, I would like to address later.

I want to focus on the interesting past few days. On Monday, in return for amending my motion, dropping it or not calling a vote on it—and we are not talking about a major defence issue, an economic issue or public sector reform; we are talking about the ban on wild animals in circuses—I was offered a reward, an incentive. If I had amended my motion and not called for a ban, I would have been offered a job. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Not as a Minister, so those who are competing should not panic. It was a pretty trivial job, like most of the ones I have had—at least, probably, until 30 minutes from now. I was offered incentive and reward on Monday, and then it was ratcheted, until last night, when I was threatened. I had a call from the Prime Minister’s office directly. I was told that the Prime Minister himself had said that unless I withdrew this motion, he would look upon it very dimly indeed.

Well, I have a message for the Whips and for the Prime Minister of our country—I did not pick a fight with the Prime Minister of our country, but I have a message. I might be just a little council house lad from a very poor background, but that background gives me a backbone, it gives me a thick skin, and I am not going to kowtow to the Whips or even the Prime Minister of my country on an issue that I feel passionately about and on which I have conviction. There might be some people with other backbones in this place, on our side and the other side, who will speak later, but we need a generation of politicians with a bit of spine, not jelly. I will not be bullied by any of the Whips. This is an issue on which I have campaigned for many years. In the previous Parliament I had an Adjournment debate and I spoke in the passage of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I have consistently campaigned on this issue, and I will not kowtow to unnecessary, disproportionate pressure.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mark Pritchard]

I am sorry, but I am afraid that I cannot give way because I have very limited time, although I am sure that it would have been a wonderful intervention from my hon. Friend, as they usually are.

The fact is that we are now in a place that I hoped we could have avoided. I tried to co-operate. Even last night in the Lobby, I spoke to the Whips and said, “Perhaps we can amend the motion”—

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), and I congratulate him. I do not imagine that he is in the running for his Chief Whip’s Back-Bencher of the month award, and he might have to wait a wee while before receiving further invitations to receptions at No. 10, but he is showing great tenacity and determination in keeping this issue alive in Parliament, and in bringing it to the attention of the House today, with the able assistance of the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this debate.

Some people may not consider this issue to be of major political consequence, but it means a great deal to a lot of people, as evidenced by the thousands of responses to last year’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs consultation, by the number of people signing The Independent newspaper’s petition, by the hundreds of MPs who have signed the relevant early-day motions, and by the e-mails and letters MPs have been receiving not just in the last few days, but over the past 14 months.

I should declare an interest: I was the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister who left this matter to the current Minister of State, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice), to sort out, and I apologise to him for that. I am sure he would rather be concentrating on other matters, but he is a highly respected politician of integrity, and I know he will take note of today’s debate and vote.

[Tony Baldry]

As the hon. Gentleman had ministerial responsibility for this issue under the last Government, may I ask him a question? In the last Parliament, we spent a lot of time debating the Bill that became the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we were told that it was the most up-to-date legislation in the world. Therefore, if there is a concern about animal welfare, why is it not covered by the provisions of that Act?

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

That is a good question, and I will discuss the 2006 Act in due course. It is my understanding that that Act could be used as the enabling legislation to introduce a ban, and I hope that my later remarks on it will clarify the situation for the hon. Gentleman.

When I took over as Minister of State in 2009, the question of wild animals in circuses had been left over from the 2006 Act. That Act was much needed and warmly welcomed and took animal welfare to a much better place, but wild animals in circuses were not specifically covered. I was lobbied by the Born Free Foundation, as well as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Animal Defenders International, and also by many Members. DEFRA organised a consultation, and we all know the outcome: 94.5% of the 13,000 respondents said they wanted a ban. The then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), agreed that we should express our conclusions before last May’s election and we said we were minded to introduce a ban.

Recently, there has been much comment about legal impediments. The European Circus Association challenged the Austrian ban at the European Commission in 2006, and it lost. It invoked the European ombudsman and it lost. The ombudsman asked the Commission to evaluate whether the Austrian ban on wild animals in circuses was proportionate. The Commission’s final opinion of September 2009, as laid out in the documents available in the Library pack for today’s debate, set out why it did not believe there were grounds for an accusation of maladministration and also set out its view on the proportionality of the Austrian ban. It ruled that this was a matter for member states to decide.

Much advice was offered to me when I was a Minister, but my recollection is that the legal questions were about whether a ban would require primary or secondary legislation. I do not remember there being a European dimension to the advice, but of course memory does play tricks on us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

2. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to increase the number of weddings performed by the Church of England.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

The Church of England’s weddings project is a package of training and resources now being used in two thirds of Church of England dioceses and is designed to encourage and promote the local parish church as a choice for weddings. It follows recent changes introduced by the Church to broaden the choice of church venues available for couples wishing to marry.

[Andrew Selous]

We have strong Government support for marriage and 90% of young people say that they want to get married, yet the number of marriages has halved since 1972 and it is at its lowest since 1895. As this is a serious issue of social justice, will my hon. Friend write to me, placing a copy in the Library, describing examples of where parishes have increased the number of weddings, with good preparation and after care, and will he encourage the archbishops to ensure that there is more of the same?

[Tony Baldry]

I assure my hon. Friend that the archbishops, bishops and indeed all the Church of England believe strongly in marriage and want to encourage couples to consider getting married in church. There is now a website, www.yourchurchwedding.org, which offers information on how prospective couples can get married in a church and provides a ceremony planner for them to design their own service. Every church wants to welcome couples who wish to get married in church, and I am certainly happy to write to him as requested.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Last week in Westminster Hall there was a very clear debate on families, in which the issue of marriages came up in particular. I have been approached about the matter of price and fees. Will the hon. Gentleman give some indication of whether the Church would be prepared to consider lower fees, because as we all know, the price for marriages is becoming exorbitant?

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Gentleman missed the chance only the other day to consider in Committee the occasional fees for the Church of England. He will find that the fee paid to the church for conducting a marriage is actually very modest in comparison with the overall costs. We are very keen to ensure that no one should feel in any way deterred from getting married in church as a result of the fees that are payable.

The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

8. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to ensure that ancient trees in churchyards are protected.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

Ancient yews are defined as trees older than 250 years and possibly as much as 5,000 years old. Yew trees were felled on a huge scale for English longbows between the 13th and 16th centuries. The yew tree has been an important part of historical religious practice, and in Britain the Celts and Romans thought it to be associated with immortality, regeneration and protection from evil.

In large numbers of cases, the ancient yew trees in churchyards are significantly older than the churches occupying the surrounding land. Many yew trees trace their history back to sacred groves and other such significant sacred places of earlier civilisation. There are eight sites of ancient yew trees recorded in Warwickshire and 12 in Cheshire.

[Mr Speaker]

We are much better informed!

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. As well as being the final resting place of the great bard, William Shakespeare, Holy Trinity church in Stratford-on-Avon has 12 yew trees representing the 12 tribes of Israel and is home to a yew tree that is estimated to be several hundred years old. Does my hon. Friend agree that the protection of such trees is extremely important in maintaining the historic settings of our great churches?

[Tony Baldry]

It is fantastic that Holy Trinity, Stratford, has planted 12 new yew trees, but my hon. Friend highlights the fact that a number of older yew trees, designated as ancient or veteran, have not had adequate statutory protection. The Church of England is determined to do all that it can to ensure that every yew tree in our churchyards is properly protected.

[Fiona Bruce]

It is excellent to hear from my hon. Friend that ancient yew trees are being preserved and protected in that way, but even with best practice no tree will last for ever. What is being done to introduce new trees to our churchyards so that future generations might enjoy that attractive part of our churchyard heritage?

[Tony Baldry]

I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that on the eve of the millennium the Conservation Foundation charity presented churches throughout the country with some 8,500 young yew trees, propagated from trees estimated to be at least 2,000 years old. We are now asking churches that planted millennium yews to record their growth and condition on Biodiversity day, which is on Sunday 22 May. I hope, however, that a number of churches up and down the land will follow the example of Holy Trinity, Stratford, and consider planting 12 new yew trees to represent either the 12 tribes of Israel or, indeed, the 12 apostles.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

5. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to encourage churches to develop and foster biodiversity in churchyards.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church of England, through its own environmental campaign “Shrinking the Footprint”, along with Natural England is supporting an application to the Heritage Lottery Fund by the charity Caring for God’s Acre to extend its work encouraging and supporting churchyard biodiversity schemes nationwide.

[Mr Gray]

North Wiltshire has some of the finest and oldest churchyards anywhere in England—one thinks of Malmesbury abbey, St Bartholomew’s in Wootton Basset, St Mary’s in Calne—and dozens of tiny, ancient, hidden churchyards miles from anywhere. What can the Church Commissioners do to encourage greater biodiversity in them while preserving their peaceful, quiet charm?

[Tony Baldry]

The Wiltshire living churchyards project has 45 participating churchyards, helped and supported by the Wiltshire Wildlife Trust, Wiltshire Churches Together and Social Responsibility in Wiltshire. As my hon. Friend tells the House, Wiltshire has a unique and rich diversity of landscape, and there are annual seminars at which Wiltshire living churchyards awards certificates for continued wildlife management. The Bishops of Bristol and of Salisbury and the Church locally are determined that churches throughout Wiltshire should be opportunities to celebrate biodiversity.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

6. How much the Church Commissioners received through the gift aid scheme in the past 10 years.

[Tony Baldry]

Church of England parishes recovered £82 million in gift aid from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in 2009, which is the last year for which we have data. Over the past 10 years, we believe that the Church has recovered a total of nearly £713 million from parish donations; this excluded donations made at cathedrals.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I welcome the recent measure in the Budget to allow donations up to £5,000 for which declarations have not been made to have tax recovered on them. What measures are the Church Commissioners taking to ensure that parishes take up this welcome opportunity?

[Tony Baldry]

That provision in the Budget was very welcome, as was the provision for the small donations gift aid scheme, because each year, in addition to using planned giving envelopes, people put into the collection plate some £58 million of loose change, and the scheme will be of considerable assistance in recovering tax on that money as well. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Church has to make the best possible use of funds that are given to it in meeting social need and ensuring that churches can be places of community resource. That also means their being places not just of worship but for the widest possible community use, whether it be for cafés, concerts, crèches or other uses for the community as a whole.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

7. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to reduce the level of lead theft from church buildings.

[Tony Baldry]

Last year, churches in Manchester had more lead theft than in any other area of the UK, with a significant number of insurance claims being made. Metal theft, particularly the theft of lead from church roofs, is the most serious problem facing the maintenance of the historic legacy of church buildings, with Wakefield cathedral being the most recent case. The Church recently sent a report to the Home Office in which it makes recommendations for the greater regulation of the scrap metal industry.

[Mr Nuttall]

What advice, if any, has the Church Buildings Council been able to give churches to advise them on how to help to deter thieves?

[Tony Baldry]

The Church is giving all possible advice to churches about effective deterrents, including what they should do regarding wireless roof alarms and other things. Frankly, though, it is a broader issue than that. The Church Buildings Council is of the view that the regulation of scrap yards is fundamental to reducing the level of metal theft. It is all too easy for roofs to be stripped of lead one night and the lead to be sold for cash the next day. We want cash transactions for lead to be made illegal, a requirement for scrap yards receiving lead or traders selling it to be licensed specially for that activity, a requirement to show documentary proof of identification when selling lead and to photograph each person when their identity is checked, and a requirement on scrap yards to report suspicious activity or persons to local police forces.

It is difficult to underestimate the damage that this is doing. The number of claims—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It would be very difficult for me to underestimate the comprehensiveness of the hon. Gentleman’s reply, which I think I can safely say is unsurpassed in the House.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

9. What recent assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the financial consequences for the Church of England of (a) women priests and (b) women bishops.

[Tony Baldry]

The General Synod of the Church of England legislated to make special financial provision for the 441 clergy who resigned from ministry between 1994 and 2004 as a result of opposition to the admission of women to the priesthood. The total cost of that to the Church Commissioners was £27.5 million plus a further call of £2.4 million on the unfunded pension scheme. The draft legislation to enable women to become bishops makes no financial provision for those who might leave should it in due course pass into law.

[Simon Hughes]

Now that the last remaining people who had a long-term philosophical commitment to opposing women in the ministry appear to have left the Church of England, may I urge the Church Commissioners to move with all speed to do what the vast majority of Church of England members want, which is to make sure that women can become bishops, as well as priests, at the earliest available date?

[Tony Baldry]

My views on this matter are well recorded. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, this matter is now out with the dioceses. I am sure that the Archdeacon of Southwark, who is a strong campaigner on this issue, will keep him informed. The dioceses are reviewing the matter and will vote on it in the near future. If they vote in the affirmative, the matter will go to the General Synod. This matter is being dealt with as speedily as is possible.

[Mr Speaker]

I apologise to the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House, but the House must hear from Mr Brian Binley.

Forestry Commission

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

One of the depressing things about this House is that, sometimes, hon. Members do not listen to what has been said. I am not sure whether the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), who introduced this debate, was present in the main Chamber when the Secretary of State made her original statement when launching the original consultation document. The right hon. Lady has sought to suggest that the Government intended to “sell off” the forests, but I heard the Secretary of State clearly say two things. On commercial forest, she said that the Government had no intention of selling freehold interests, but that they would grant leaseholds for the specific reason of enhancing protections for access and other rights—for walkers, cyclists and so on—within those commercial lettings.

On heritage woodland, I heard the Secretary of State make it very clear that, if community, voluntary or other groups did not come forward to run community and heritage woodland, it would remain within public ownership. I invite the right hon. Lady to re-read what the Secretary of State said in her statement to the House, because her comments bear absolutely no relationship to the Government’s policy. Part of the problem with this whole debate is that the perception of the Government’s policy bears no relationship to what Ministers actually proposed.

[Joan Ruddock]

The hon. Gentleman has to take into account the many remarks that have been made, not least by the Minister, about the so-called sell-off and disposal of up to 100% of the forest estate. The hon. Gentleman criticises the term “sell-off,” but the fact is that disposals of whatever kind mean that the estate is totally fragmented. That is the big difference and that is why it is so significant.

[Tony Baldry]

I do not wish to pursue this point, but the right hon. Lady was a Minister in the previous Government and understands the concept of collective government, so she well understands that comments by a Secretary of State at the Dispatch Box represent the collective view of the Government. The Secretary of State could not have been clearer when she spoke at the Dispatch Box about what the Government intended to do.

I was fortunate to grow up in Burnham Beeches, which is a substantial area of woodland between Maidenhead and Slough that is owned and very well managed by the City of London corporation. It makes the point that much of our woodland in this country is owned by a diverse group of owners. I am a Church Commissioner and the Church Commissioners own a fair amount of woodland, much of it in our agricultural estate, and we lease woodland to the Forestry Commission. Having had the opportunity as a child to enjoy the benefits of Burnham Beeches, I am conscious of the importance of woodland. Moreover, as a representative of the county of Oxfordshire, which has very little woodland cover, I am conscious of how important it is to encourage woodland cover as a whole.

When I was fortunate enough to be a Minister in the Department of the Environment, I was proud to be part of a ministerial team that advanced initiatives on both the national forest and the community forest. At that time, Mr Gray, you were a distinguished special adviser to Ministers in the Department.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. It is kind of the hon. Gentleman to remind me of that and to be so flattering, but for the sake of today’s debate, I cast aside all previous party political roles that I may have had. I am highly dispassionate about today’s debate.

[Tony Baldry]

I did not want you to think, Mr Gray, that I was trying to steal all the glory of those days under Lord Heseltine and others in the Department of the Environment, when we benefited from your advice. It is worth recalling that the Conservative party has a long tradition of seeking to enhance woodland cover in the UK. The national forest, which was an initiative by that Government, has been a great success story. Last year, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee reported:

“Fifteen years on from its inception, The National Forest is a success story. It is delivering tangible environmental, economic and social benefits out of a bold vision to transform a 200 square mile swathe of the Midlands—much of which was suffering economic and environmental decline—through planting trees to create new woods and forests. Its achievement is not so much in trebling the proportion of land with tree cover to 18%, but that, in so doing, it has helped to regenerate the local economy, open up the Forest to greater public use and improve the natural environment.”

On community forests, the Countryside Agency commissioned consultants a few years ago to assess their impact, and they concluded that, overall, the community forests programme

“has been successful in levering in high levels of private and voluntary sector support”,

and that

“over the period 1990-2003, the total amount levered”

into new woodland

“totalled £42.9 million.”

They also noted:

“Overall, the CFP is performing well in terms of increasing woodland cover and improving the environment.

The CFP is performing particularly well in terms of providing opportunities for informal recreation and opening up rights of way.”

I am proud to have been involved in initiatives such as the national forest that encourage the development of everything from community forests to local pocket parks, and which have enhanced community woodland.

It is sensible for the Secretary of State to establish an independent panel to consider forestry policy in England. It will report its findings to the Secretary of State in the autumn, and it will advise on the direction of forestry and woodland policy in England and on the role of the Forestry Commission and the public forest estate. I hope that the independent panel will be able to look at all the questions raised in the consultation paper—it was published by DEFRA, but subsequently withdrawn—on the future of the Forestry Commission. Part of the difficulty in this whole saga is that the clauses relating to the commission in the Public Bodies Bill had, by necessity, to be published before DEFRA was able to publish its consultation on the commission’s future. When their lordships considered a number of different issues in the Bill, they managed to get themselves confused and allow a considerable degree of speculation about what might have been happening when it was clearly not what was intended. I think that that was made clear by the Secretary of State’s statement to the House.

[Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Could it not be that their lordships’ understanding of the proposals was based on what was said to them by the Minister? He said that

“we wish to proceed with…very substantial disposal of public forest estate, which could go to the extent of all of it.”

That sounds very clear and it is hardly surprising that their lordships took the Minister at his word.

[Tony Baldry]

That highlights a fundamental misunderstanding. The Forestry Commission has within its control two different types of woodland. It was brought into being at the time of the first world war to enable the country to have access to commercial forestry to provide timber for such things as pit props for the mines, and the vast majority of commercial forestry in this country—about 82%—is and has always been in private ownership. It would be very surprising if, at a time when we no longer expect the state to run airlines, own travel agencies, generate electricity or operate sewage treatment works, we thought that the state should be growing Christmas trees. Such a view is slightly bizarre.

The Forestry Commission also has heritage woodland within its ownership. I suspect that there has sometimes been a deliberate attempt by those wishing to create mischief to cause confusion between the Government’s policy on commercial forestry and on heritage woodland. The Secretary of State could not have been clearer about the matter when she spoke to the House when launching the consultation paper: the Government consider those matters to be two very different entities. The Secretary of State could not made it plainer to the House that if appropriate bodies do not come forward to manage heritage woodland properly, that woodland will remain within the public estate.

I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak. The other points I want to make are that we have heard a lot about the Forestry Commission during the past few weeks, but I hope that the independent panel will give regard to how we can increase woodland cover more generally in the UK, particularly in England. On commercial forestry, I hope that the panel will consider the effect and impact of the tax regime in England in comparison with regimes elsewhere in the world—for example, considerable tree planting is taking place in the United States. The trust funds of universities such as Harvard, Yale and others are investing considerable money in commercial forestry because, as they are charities, there are incentives for them to do so under US tax law.

On heritage woodland, I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us what will follow the environmental stewardship schemes that have formed part of the rural development programme for England for a considerable time. It is clear that the majority of agricultural land is almost entirely in private ownership and therefore planting for new broadleaf community woodlands will almost certainly take place on private land. What incentive or encouragement will there be for farmers, as landowners, to plant new community woodland?

When the independent panel concludes its work, I hope that there will be two coherent chapters on different policies. I hope that there is one chapter on the future of commercial forestry—how we can encourage more of it in the UK—and the Forestry Commission, and a second on how we enhance heritage woodland and encourage access and amenity in relation to community woodland, as we did with the national forest and community forests. It should be on the record that the Government have made it very clear that they wish to enhance and protect the rights of access. I suspect that the main concern of a large number of constituents who have understandably contacted us about the issue is that they should continue to have access to woodland. That is very important. The Government have made it clear throughout that they want to protect access to woodland. However, that needs to be stated and restated time and again.

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[Sir Peter Soulsby]

I will come to questions to the Minister about how independent the review will be and what its terms of reference will be in one moment. Before doing that, I will return to the concerns about the continuing threats to the Forestry Commission’s work expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford when she introduced the debate and later by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon. They pointed out that although it appears that there has been some pause in the Government’s headlong rush to dismantle the public forest estate, they are pressing ahead with requiring the Forestry Commission to make substantial cuts in its staff. Some 400 jobs—about a quarter of the total—are at risk immediately. That will inevitably reduce its capacity to undertake the excellent stewardship achieved over recent years. Its ability to manage the deer and wildlife will be reduced, learning and educational programmes will be cut, and there will inevitably be extended charges for services or the shutting of facilities. Elements of what the Forestry Commission manages directly and excellently at the moment will have to be passed over to others.

I have a number of questions for the Minister. My right hon. and hon. Friends have already mentioned some of them, but I will list the points again and allow the Minister plenty of time to respond. When will the Government bring forward details of who will sit on the new panel, and how will they guarantee the independence of that panel? Will the panel include public and local campaign groups that have been involved in the campaign to save the forests, and will it include members of the work force? Will the panel meet in public? Will all existing planned sales be halted pending the panel’s report?

Will the panel be able to recommend maintaining the land in public hands? The Minister muttered “Rubbish” from a sedentary position when this point was raised earlier, so perhaps he will take the opportunity to tell us if it is untrue. How can the Government deliver better woodland access and biodiversity when the Forestry Commission is cutting staff by a quarter over the next three months? Finally, will any future receipts from sales of land stay within the Forestry Commission so that they can be used for the enhancement of our public forest estate? That is what the previous Government did and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford reminded us, it is something of which we are proud.

The public were appalled by what the Government proposed, and they understood clearly the full extent of what it might mean. Those who campaigned so effectively were aware of the threat to our precious woodlands and forests, but they must be reminded that the threat has not gone away, and we have had the opportunity to do that today. Conservative Members have been dismissive of those fears in the past, and we have heard such fears dismissed again today. Hon. Members from all sides must have heard the clear message during the run-up to the debate on 2 February, and it is still something that we need to hear. Our woods and forests are just that—they are our woods and our forests. They must be kept that way and properly managed by the Forestry Commission, an organisation that has an excellent record in the stewardship of those precious assets on our behalf.

[Tony Baldry]

On a point of order, Mr Gray, for the benefit of Hansard, I am the hon. Member for Banbury, not the hon. Member for Daventry.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

3. What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; and if she will make a statement.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

6. What steps her Department is taking to reduce fish discards.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The United Kingdom Government are pursuing a policy of minimising discards through the reform of the common fisheries policy in 2012. Work is also being undertaken domestically with our fishing industry to increase the selectivity of fishing and to improve the utilisation of the remaining unavoidable fish catches. Levels of discards from the UK fleet have been decreasing year on year since 2002. I am committed to taking further action.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

I applaud the Fish Fight campaign, which has been conducted very ably by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. My one criticism is of the line that the fight back starts here. I should say in fairness to the previous Government that the fight back started many years ago—and the present Government, too, have worked extremely hard on catch quotas, fishing for the market, and a variety of measures to reduce the number of discards. I am happy to work with anyone. We need to win public support and, in that regard, the programme was a great success.

[Tony Baldry]

Speaking as the last Conservative Fisheries Minister in the Major Government, I can tell my hon. Friend that I thought he was considerably better at identifying fish at Billingsgate than I could ever have been.

I believe that the whole House supports my hon. Friend on the need to reform the common fisheries policy. Let me say to those who oppose quotas that reducing fishing and protecting fish stocks by reducing effort is no easier an option, and that we must face the reality that fishermen will not want to keep their boats in port.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind words. When interviewed at five o’clock in the morning, I would be hard pressed to recognise my own children, let alone fish stocks. I am grateful to my friends and enemies who have sent me fish charts, with which I wiled away the long winter evenings. He rightly says that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this problem; there are opportunities to increase effort control, but we also have to deal with the problem of quotas. That is a problem in a mixed fishery and it has been part of the driver towards the number of discards, which we are so keen to reduce.