Wednesday 28th June 2023
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberHolocaust Memorial Bill 2022-23 Read Hansard Text
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Holocaust Memorial Bill 2022-23 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Michael Gove)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This short Bill serves a vital purpose. It ensures that the undertaking that this Government have given, supported by the official Opposition and all parties in this House, is honoured, and that a fitting, Government-led national memorial and learning centre to honour the 6 million who died in the holocaust is established in a suitable, prominent centre at the heart of our capital city.
I know that everyone in this House recognises that the holocaust was a unique evil. Genocide—the greatest crime that humanity can inflict on other human beings—has been a dark feature of our shared history since the dawn of time, but the holocaust stands out in scale and in horror. It was a unique desire on the part of a nation to wipe out an entire people. Mechanised cruelty executed on a scale that could never have been imagined beforehand meant that, from the Pyrenees to the Urals, the Nazi war machine was bent on the elimination of an entire race. I think all of us, whatever our views on the Bill and all of the inevitable details that follow in making sure that an appropriate memorial is sited, will share a desire to ensure that the commitment “Never again” is in all our hearts.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I fully concur with what my right hon. Friend has just said, and I am fully supportive of a national holocaust memorial, but the reason I will not be supporting the Government in the passing of this Bill this evening—if it is passed—is that there appears to have been a complete lack of public consultation. Westminster City Council was against it, and it seems to me as though this has been imposed from above by Government. That is not what we do in this country: we need a much wider consultation. That is why many prominent Jews, including Malcolm Rifkind, former rabbis and so forth, have signed the open letter arguing against the siting of the memorial in Victoria Tower gardens.
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes an important point. There has been controversy and there has been opposition to the site of the memorial, but it is only fair to say that the decision to site it in Victoria Tower gardens has followed consultation. There was extensive consultation on this project, starting with Prime Minister David Cameron’s holocaust commission in 2014, which received almost 2,500 responses. Following the announcement in January 2016 that Victoria Tower gardens had been identified as the most fitting site, an international design competition was then held to select a suitable design team.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I do not put this as a point of argument, but as something that I hope my right hon. Friend is aware of: when the UK Holocaust Memorial Foundation put out its specification in September 2015—a copy of which, I think, is available to my right hon. Friend—it said that it wanted various criteria to be taken into account, including a possible location in central London, which on page 10 of the specification is illustrated as west of Regent’s Park, east of Spitalfields and down from the Imperial War Museum. In the four or five months between September 2015 and January 2016, there was no public consultation about the site at all. I do not want my right hon. Friend to feel that he needs to answer that point now, but if he could say before the end of the debate what consultation there was between September 2015 and January 2016, that might be helpful to the House.
Michael Gove
The consultation was undertaken after the announcement of the winning design, and from January to September 2017 the public were invited to comment on the shortlisted designs, which were exhibited in Parliament and across the United Kingdom. Of course, as the Father of the House will know, there was a planning inquiry, and during that inquiry extensive material about the memorial and the learning centre was published and shared. Interested parties were given an opportunity to raise concerns and objections, and objectors had the opportunity to make their case to the independent planning inspector at that point.
However, I stress that the decision on the site was not taken by Government Ministers, and—in respect of the understandable concerns raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron)—it was not imposed by the Government themselves. The decision was arrived at by the independent Holocaust Memorial Foundation, with representations from different political traditions, including the right hon. Ed Balls and the right hon. Lord Pickles; the Chief Rabbi; the very distinguished president of the Community Security Trust, Gerald Ronson; and a host of others from civil society. While my hon. Friend is right to say that some people within the Jewish community have expressed concerns, the overwhelming view of the Jewish community and its representative organisations is that this is the right memorial in the right location, and that we must press on.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. On the location, what assurances can he give that the Bill does not undermine the environmental protections that Victoria Tower gardens currently enjoy?
Michael Gove
Victoria Tower gardens will continue to be a park with public access—only some 7.5% of the location of the park will be occupied by the memorial. Of course, when David Cameron initiated the commission, it was made clear that any memorial should be suitably striking, suitably prominent, and in a location that has political, cultural, emotional and historical resonance, which it will be.
Dame Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
When I was Leader of the House of Commons, between 2017 and 2019, I received so many representations personally from people who made the case that there are now so few holocaust survivors still living that we simply have to get on with this. As my right hon. Friend said, that consultation began under David Cameron’s leadership, which is now a long time in the past. If we are going to do this, and it needs to be in a prominent place to show our respect and commitment to remembering that horrific time, we must get on with it.
Michael Gove
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, who was a brilliant Leader of the House, for making that point so clearly. As she reminds us, the holocaust is moving from living history to history. The voices of those who are survivors and witnesses are fading, and we must ensure that their example endures.
Just a fortnight ago, Ben Helfgott, an ambassador for the Holocaust Educational Trust, sadly passed away. Ben was a holocaust survivor who went on to represent this country in weightlifting at the Olympics. Thanks to the Holocaust Educational Trust, I had the privilege of meeting Ben and hearing his testimony. I do not think any of us who have heard the testimony of any of the witnesses and survivors for whom the Holocaust Educational Trust has provided a platform will forget that—there is nothing as powerful as hearing from those who lived through and survived the hell of the holocaust. As Ben and other survivors pass on, it is our duty and our responsibility to move as quickly as we can to ensure that the memorial they fought for and wished to see is established suitably.
Of course, one of the other reasons why it is so important that we move quickly and show resolution is that not only are voices fading, but antisemitism is rising. In 2022, the last year for which we have figures, the Community Security Trust recorded 1,652 antisemitic incidents. In the year before that, the number of antisemitic incidents in this country had reached a record high. As Jonathan Sacks reminded us, antisemitism is a virus that mutates. We need to be vigilant, always and everywhere, against hate and prejudice, and the memorial and learning centre will establish a means of doing so for generations to come.
Jonathan Edwards
I agree with everything that the Secretary of State has just said. He will be aware that the Jewish Museum in Camden is due to close because of a lack of funds—that is my understanding. What consideration have the Government given to providing some funds to keep that recognition of the holocaust alive?
Michael Gove
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Of course, the Government stand behind the memorial, but there will also be philanthropic funding. Here again, Gerald Ronson CBE is one of the figures at the forefront in supporting this cause, as he has so many good causes. The Government also support the work of the Holocaust Educational Trust. Indeed, I was proud as the Education Secretary to carry on the great work of Ed Balls in making sure that holocaust education was a critical part of the history that every child learns in our schools.
As the former Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom), pointed out, David Cameron established a commission with cross-party support in 2014, and it is that commission’s work that we seek to honour today. Again, the commission was clear that the most important thing is to make sure that we have a striking new memorial in a prominent central London location and accompanied by a world-class education centre. That is what the holocaust memorial commission is charged with delivering, and the detail of its proposals have commanded respect and approval from historians and from within the Jewish community.
This Bill seeks specifically to change the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900, which governs public parks. All we seek to do is to make sure that those parts of the 1900 Act that Mrs Justice Thornton rightly invoked in the case that was heard before her are altered. We wish to ensure that it is the clear will of Parliament—both the Commons and the Lords, across parties and across political traditions—that the memorial goes ahead, while also continuing to respect free access to Victoria Tower gardens, respecting its position as a public park, and making sure that those green spaces are accessible to all and that the existing memorials there are respected as well.
As I have mentioned, the choice of venue has attracted some controversy, but I can put it no better than the Chief Rabbi himself. When questioned about why, he said that this
“is an inspirational choice of venue… this is a most wonderful location because it is in a prime place of great prominence and it is at the heart of our democracy… we don’t want to tuck the Holocaust away somewhere—similar to…a tiny monument in Hyde Park, that most people have never heard of. We want all of British society to be aware…for the sake of the whole country and its future.”
We are all privileged to be parliamentarians, and we all know that when people think of this country, the symbol they associate with it is this House. We all know that this nation—the mother of Parliaments, the home of Parliamentary democracy—has a proud tradition. It is only appropriate that, when we reflect on the greatest evil that humanity has ever been responsible for, it is here in the home of parliamentary democracy that we find the space, the time and the common endeavour to make sure that a fitting memorial can be established, and that is what this Bill seeks to do.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making a very effective and powerful speech in support of the Bill. The point he has just made about the proximity of the memorial and learning centre to this institution is exactly right. Does he agree with me that, when we talk about the holocaust and the horrors of the past, it is not just something that happened to other people over there; it is actually part of our story and our history as well? So Westminster, close to Parliament, is the ideal location for this memorial.
Michael Gove
I could not agree more. There are representatives in this House and in the other place who are the relatives of those who died or survived the holocaust. Lord Austin, a distinguished Cross Bencher in the other place, is the adopted son of a holocaust survivor. This is about recognising the intimate links between this country and that crime, and the fact that distinguished figures such as those responsible for the Kindertransport played an heroic role in helping people fleeing persecution to come to this country. However, it is also the case that all history is complex, and there are mistakes that this nation and some of its leaders or leading politicians made at that time that we also need to remember, if we are to ensure that “never again” is a phrase that resonates with meaning rather than being simply an empty repeated platitude.
Jonathan Edwards
My interest in this Bill is primarily driven by constituents of mine who are related to Thomas Fowell Buxton, and there is a very important monument to his memory and the campaign he waged against slavery on this site. If this Bill proceeds, what can we do to ensure that this memorial complements that memorial?
Michael Gove
Again, the hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. The whole design by David Adjaye and his team is designed to complement the Buxton memorial. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman is quite right that it is fitting that a memorial intended to ensure that we remember those who fought against the evil of slavery is located alongside a memorial to ensure that we remember the victims of the greatest crime that humanity was ever responsible for.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has been right in talking about the site for the memorial, and colleagues have raised the issue of opposition to it. Does he agree with me that the principal reason why some Jewish people and Jewish leaders are raising objections is the sheer length of time this whole process is taking? Actually, they do not object to where it is sited, but just want to make sure we get on with the job and get it done.
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. From the meetings I have had with the commission and the conversations I have had with people in the Jewish community and beyond, I know they want us to proceed. They understand that we are a country governed by laws and they understand why the court came to the decision it did on the 1900 Act, but they also want the Government, as well as this House and the other place, to proceed at the fastest possible pace—giving due consideration to all the arguments that are and have been made, but at the fastest possible pace—to ensure that an appropriate memorial is established.
I would like to close by reflecting on the words of Mala Tribich MBE, who is now 92 years old, and a holocaust survivor herself. As she says:
“As the Holocaust moves further into history and we survivors become less able to share our testimonies this Memorial and Learning Centre will be a lasting legacy so that future generations will understand why it is important for people to remember the Holocaust, to learn from the past and stand up against injustice. The memory of the Holocaust cannot be left to fade when us eyewitnesses are no longer able to share our memories.”
I believe we owe it to Mala and to all survivors to pass this Bill, and I commend it to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Felicity Buchan)
It is a real pleasure to conclude the debate. I sincerely thank Members from across the House for their thoughtful, powerful and often very personal contributions to the debate. I was moved to hear such support for the principles of this Bill from all sides of the House. Together we can put our personal politics to one side and get the holocaust memorial built, while there are still holocaust survivors alive to see it.
Regrettably, it is a sombre truth that holocaust survivors who found solace in the United Kingdom are passing away, so we cannot let this opportunity pass us by. We must pass this Bill. We must ensure that future generations remember tomorrow. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, the Bill will enable us to keep that solemn promise. Through it, we are pursuing our manifesto commitment and a moral commitment.
It is encouraging to know that there is broad agreement about the need for a prominent national holocaust memorial and learning centre, even among those few dissenting voices who have expressed concerns about the site in Victoria Tower gardens. What is not in dispute is that its location at the heart of our democracy has an unmatchable historical, emotional and political significance.
I wish to spend a few moments replying to some of the concerns that have been mentioned, first, in the reasoned amendment, and, secondly, in some of the speeches. We are opposing the amendment. Many of these issues were examined in depth at the six-week public inquiry in 2020.
In his overall conclusion, the planning inspector was clear that the significant range of truly civic, educative, social and even moral public benefits that the proposals offer would demonstrably outweigh the identified harms that the proposals have been found to cause. A number of Members, including my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken), raised concerns about the park and the environment. I stress that our proposal is to take only 7.5% of the area of the gardens, with the structure of our learning centre placed underground.
Nickie Aiken
I appreciate what the Minister is saying about the 7.5%. However, does she agree that placing the memorial and the learning centre in Victoria Tower gardens will change the whole atmosphere of the area, which is currently a neighbourhood park to a civic area.
Felicity Buchan
It is our full intention that all activities that, at the moment, occur in the park can continue to do so, and we are being very sensitive in our design of the memorial and the learning centre. On the 7.5% point, I wish to note that the planning inspector, in his decision, recorded that the figure was agreed by all the main parties to the inquiry. I also want to say that the gardens will be enhanced in many ways with new planting, better drainage and more accessible seating. It is important also to note that the Holocaust Memorial Bill itself cannot and will not do anything to alter environmental and green space protections. The Bill will remove the statutory obstacle to building the memorial and learning centre in Victoria Tower gardens, it does not provide any sort of planning permission and other necessary consents. These are contingent on an entirely separate planning permission.
I wish to pick up on a few other points that were raised. On trees, I want to reassure everyone that all the mature London plane trees will be protected, and additional planting will increase the overall attractiveness. We are taking measures to minimise the risk of damage to tree roots. Flooding was also mentioned. A detailed flood-risk assessment prepared as part of the planning application has concluded that Victoria Tower gardens is heavily protected. However, we take the risk of flooding very seriously, The Environment Agency has sought planning conditions relating to the condition of the river wall, which we are happy to comply with.
The Buxton Memorial and the concerns about it being overshadowed were mentioned. I want to stress that the design of the memorial means that the Buxton Memorial will be kept in its current position and, with the addition of new landscaping and seating, its setting will be improved. The memorial will be no higher than the top of the Buxton Memorial and the fins will step down progressively.
Concerns were raised about the interaction with the restoration and renewal programme. I just want to stress that the memorial site is at the southern end of Victoria Tower gardens and need not prevent the use of the gardens as required by the R&R project for site offices.
There was mention of having the memorial at the Imperial War Museum. I reiterate that the Imperial War Museum is very supportive of our proposals and, indeed, the chair sits on the foundation board. There was also mention of the fact that the learning centre was too small, but it is of a comparable size to that of the exhibition space underground in Berlin. In the reasoned amendment there was mention of the fact that there should be an endowment fund for education, but nothing that we are doing precludes that. There was also mention of the fact that there is opposition from members of the Jewish community. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) said, we are never going to get unanimity among any group of people, but we are delighted that we have the support of the Chief Rabbi and of every living Prime Minister, and broad representation from the Jewish community.
Consultation has been mentioned, and the Secretary of State addressed many of those issues, but we have over the years carried out extensive consultation. We looked at around 50 possible sites in central London, and there was a public inquiry as part of the planning process. We conducted a very thorough search of possible alternative suitable sites. All sites were assessed against the same published criteria, which included visibility, accessibility, availability and affordability. Almost all the criteria in the 2015 site selection document can be met at Victoria Tower gardens. I thank Members across the House for their contributions in this important debate and for their support to deliver this long-overdue memorial.
Wednesday 28th June 2023
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberHolocaust Memorial Bill 2022-23 Read Hansard Text
17:58 - The House divided: - Ayes: 11 / Noes: 379 - Question accordingly negatived.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Holocaust Memorial Bill 2022-23 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Felicity Buchan)
I beg to move,
(1) That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee of five members, all of whom are to be nominated by the Committee of Selection.
(2) That in determining the composition of the Select Committee the Committee of Selection shall nominate three members from the Government and two members from opposition parties.
(3) That there shall stand referred to the Select Committee—
(a) any petition against the Bill submitted to the Private Bill Office during the period beginning at 10.00am on 29 June 2023 and ending at 5.00pm on 24 July 2023, and
(b) any petition which has been submitted to the Private Bill Office and in which the petitioners complain of—
(i) any amendment as proposed in the filled-up Bill,
(ii) any amendment as proposed by the member in charge of the Bill which, if the Bill were a private bill, could not be made except upon petition for additional provision, or
(iii) any matter which has arisen during the progress of the Bill before the Select Committee, (and references in this paragraph to the submission of a petition are to its submission electronically, by post or in person).
(4) That if no such petition as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (3)(a) above is presented, or if all such petitions are withdrawn before the meeting of the Committee, the order for the committal of the Bill to a Select Committee shall be discharged and the Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
(5) That, notwithstanding the practice of the House that appearances on petitions against an opposed private bill be required to be entered at the first meeting of the Select Committee on the Bill, in the case of any such petitions as are mentioned in paragraph 3(a) above on which appearances are not entered at that meeting, the Select Committee shall appoint a later day or days on which it will require appearances on those petitions to be entered.
(6) That any petitioner whose petition stands referred to the Select Committee shall, subject to the rules and orders of the House and to the prayer of that person’s petition, be entitled to be heard in person or through counsel or agents upon that person’s petition provided that it is prepared and signed in conformity with the rules and orders of the House, and the member in charge of the Bill shall be entitled to be heard through counsel or agents in favour of the Bill against that petition.
(7) That the Select Committee shall require any hearing in relation to a petition mentioned in paragraph 6 above to take place in person, unless exceptional circumstances apply.
(8) That in applying the rules of the House in relation to parliamentary agents, any reference to a petitioner in person shall be treated as including a reference to a duly authorised member or officer of an organisation, group or body.
(9) That the Select Committee have power to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House and to report from day to day the minutes of evidence taken before it.
(10) That three be the quorum of the Select Committee.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this, we shall discuss the following:
Motion 6—Holocaust Memorial Bill: Instruction—
That it be an instruction to the Select Committee to which the Holocaust Memorial Bill is committed to deal with the Bill as follows:
(1) That the Committee treats the principle of the Bill, as determined by the House on the Bill’s Second Reading, as comprising the matters mentioned in paragraph 2; and those matters shall accordingly not be at issue during proceedings of the Committee.
(2) The matters referred to in paragraph (1) are—
(a) the Secretary of State may incur expenditure for or in connection with (i) a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust, and (ii) a centre for learning relating to the memorial; and
(b) section 8(1) and (8) of the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900 are not to prevent, restrict or otherwise affect the construction, use, operation, maintenance or improvement of such a memorial and centre for learning at Victoria Tower Gardens in the City of Westminster.
(3) Given paragraph (2) and as the Bill does not remove the need for planning permission and all other necessary consents being obtained in the usual way for the construction, use, operation, maintenance and improvement of the memorial and centre for learning, the Committee shall not hear any petition against the Bill to the extent that the petition relates to—
(a) the question of whether or not there should be a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust or a centre for learning relating to the memorial, whether at Victoria Tower Gardens or elsewhere; or
(b) whether or not planning permission and all other necessary consents should be given for the memorial and centre for learning, or the terms and conditions on which they should be given.
(4) The Committee shall have power to consider any amendments proposed by the member in charge of the Bill which, if the Bill were a private bill, could not be made except upon petition for additional provision.
(5) Paragraph (4) applies only so far as the amendments proposed by the member in charge of the Bill fall within the principle of the Bill as provided for by paragraphs (1) and (2) above.
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.
Amendment (a) to motion 6, in paragraph (2)(a), leave out from “memorial” to the end of paragraph (2)(b).
Amendment (b), to motion 6, leave out paragraph (3).
Motion 7—Holocaust Memorial Bill: Carry-over—
That the following provisions shall apply in respect of the Holocaust Memorial Bill:
Suspension at end of current Session
(1) Further proceedings on the Bill shall be suspended from the day on which this Session of Parliament ends (“the current Session”) until the next Session of Parliament (“Session 2023–24”).
(2) If a Bill is presented in Session 2023–24 in the same terms as those in which the Bill stood when proceedings on it were suspended in the current Session—
(a) the Bill so presented shall be ordered to be printed and shall be deemed to have been read the first and second time;
(b) the Standing Orders and practice of the House applicable to the Bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in the current Session, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2023–24;
(c) the Bill shall be dealt with in accordance with—
(i) paragraph 3, if proceedings in Select Committee were not completed when proceedings on the Bill were suspended,
(ii) paragraph 4, if proceedings in Public Bill Committee were begun but not completed when proceedings on the Bill were suspended,
(iii) paragraph 5, if the Bill was waiting to be considered when proceedings on it were suspended,
(iv) paragraph 6, if the Bill was waiting for third reading when proceedings on it were suspended, or
(v) paragraph 7, if the Bill has been read the third time and sent to the House of Lords.
(3) If this paragraph applies—
(a) the Bill shall stand committed to a Select Committee of such Members as were members of the Committee when proceedings on the Bill were suspended in the current Session;
(b) any instruction of the House to the Committee in the current Session shall be an instruction to the Committee on the Bill in Session 2023–24;
(c) all petitions submitted in the current Session which stand referred to the Committee and which have not been withdrawn, and any petition submitted between the day on which the current Session ends and the day on which proceedings on the Bill are resumed in Session 2023–24 in accordance with this Order, shall stand referred to the Committee in Session 2023–24;
(d) any minutes of evidence taken and any papers laid before the Committee in the current Session shall stand referred to the Committee in Session 2023–24;
(e) only those petitions mentioned in sub-paragraph (c), and any petition which may be submitted to the Private Bill Office and in which the petitioners complain of any amendment proposed by the member in charge of the Bill which, if the Bill were a private bill, could not be made except upon petition for additional provision or of any matter which has arisen during the progress of the Bill before the Committee in Session 2023–24, shall stand referred to the Committee;
(f) any petitioners whose petitions stand referred to the Committee in Session 2023–24 shall, subject to the rules and orders of the House, and to the prayer of that person’s petition, be entitled to be heard in person or through counsel or agents upon that person’s petition provided that it is prepared and signed in conformity with the rules and orders of the House, and the member in charge of the Bill shall be entitled to be heard through counsel or agents in favour of the Bill against that petition;
(g) the Committee shall require any hearing in relation to a petition mentioned in sub-paragraph (f) above to take place in person, unless exceptional circumstances apply;
(h) in applying the rules of the House in relation to parliamentary agents, any reference to a petitioner in person shall be treated as including a reference to a duly authorised member or officer of an organisation, group or body;
(i) the Committee shall have power to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House and to report from day to day minutes of evidence taken before it;
(j) three shall be the quorum of the Committee.
(4) If this paragraph applies, the Bill shall be deemed to have been reported from the Select Committee and to have been re-committed to a Public Bill Committee.
(5) If this paragraph applies—
(a) the Bill shall be deemed to have been reported from the Select Committee and from the Public Bill Committee, and
(b) the Bill shall be set down as an order of the day for consideration.
(6)If this paragraph applies—
(a) the Bill shall be deemed to have been reported from the Select Committee and from the Public Bill Committee and to have been considered, and
(b) the Bill shall be set down as an order of the day for third reading.
(7) If this paragraph applies, the Bill shall be deemed to have passed through all its stages in this House.
Other
(8) In paragraph (3) above, references to the submission of a petition are to its submission electronically, by post or in person.
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.
Motion 8—Positions for which additional salaries are payable for the purposes of section 4A(2) of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009—
That the Order of the House of 19 March 2013 (Positions for which additional salaries are payable for the purposes of section 4A(2) of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009) be amended, in paragraph (1)(a), by inserting, in the appropriate place, “the Select Committee on the Holocaust Memorial Bill”.
Felicity Buchan
The instruction motion, tabled in the name of the Secretary of State, sets out the matters that can properly be considered by the Select Committee when it hears petitions against the Bill. It is a custom of the House, and a well-established part of the process for hybrid Bills, that the Select Committee should not hear petitions that seek to challenge the principle of the Bill. The Second Reading debate that just concluded was the opportunity for this House to consider the principle of the Bill, and I am delighted that this House has given such support to the Bill.
It is familiar practice on hybrid Bills, for example with the current and recent High Speed 2 Bills, that the House should pass a motion giving instructions to the Select Committee on what precisely falls within the principle of the Bill. Such a motion helps to provide clarity for the Committee and, of course, for potential petitioners, so that no time should be wasted seeking to raise matters on the Bill’s principle, on which the House has already expressed such a clear view.
In this case, the motion specifies that
“the Committee shall not hear any petition against the Bill to the extent that the petition relates to—
(a) the question of whether or not there should be a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust or a centre for learning relating to the memorial, whether at Victoria Tower Gardens or elsewhere; or
(b) whether or not planning permission and all other necessary consents should be given for the memorial and centre for learning, or the terms and conditions on which they should be given.”
If the House agrees to pass the motion, the Select Committee would still have a good deal of scope to consider matters relating to clause 2 of the Bill—notably, the extent to which the restrictions in section 8 of the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900 should be removed, and whether there should be any conditions on that removal.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
It is accepted that there is a principle to memorial, so what about my point on having an overground memorial—like other memorials—but not an underground learning centre? Will the Committee still be able to consider such a detail?
Felicity Buchan
The Committee can consider the extent and any conditions on the memorial in Victoria Tower gardens, so yes, that can be considered.
The established practice for Select Committees on hybrid Bills is that they consider petitions from people who are directly and especially affected by the proposals in the Bill. I understand that the House authorities will publish guidance for people who are considering whether to petition against the Bill. It will ultimately be a matter for the Select Committee to decide which petitioners to hear and which points in the petitions to consider.
The motion is a necessary and important measure that supports the well-established principles and processes for dealing with a hybrid Bill. The amendments proposed by the Father of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), risks undermining those established principles and processes, and could create confusion on the scope of the Committee’s work, which would be unhelpful to the Committee and all participants, including petitioners. For those reasons, the Government do not accept the amendments. I commend the motion to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Father of the House.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for the way in which she has introduced these four topics. We are talking mainly about the instruction motion; I do not think that the others are very exceptionable.
I think I may have served on more hybrid Bill Committees—and certainly for longer—than most people, including that of High Speed 2. I doubt that the situation is quite as my hon. Friend described it. Hybrid Bill procedure exists for a reason: to protect the rights of those who are specifically affected by a Bill and allow them to put their case to a Committee. By making clause 2 the principle of the Bill, as well as clause 1—as I said before, there is no controversy about clause 1—the Government have already spent £17 million or more achieving nothing. They are now proposing to spend an extra £80 million to £100 million achieving not very much. I suggested in a previous debate that the Government should consider how to get a national holocaust memorial up—close to Westminster, if they want—within two years. Of course, the Government would not, as I have explained before, achieve it in four to five years extra, over and above the eight years that have been used up so far.
To go back to the hybridity, it is a matter of record that the Government declared in front of the examiners that this was not a hybrid Bill. They were wrong; it is a hybrid Bill. The reason for a hybrid Bill is so that people have the right to petition. The Government tried to stop that. I think that it is fairly clear to anyone who looks at this that the Government are now seeking to achieve the same result by using this instruction. It is up to the Government to decide whether the instruction, as introduced, is an abuse.
It would be quite easy for the Government to stand up and say what things the petitioners might rightfully put in a petition and be heard on, rather than telling the Committee that they cannot be heard. In addition, because this is a local park for local people, I believe not just that advertisements should be put in newspapers or in the gazette, but that a leaflet should be given to every resident, no matter how small or large their home, from, say, Vauxhall Bridge, Victoria station, along Victoria Street and south of Victoria Street up to the embankment. Those people should be told how the procedure works, how they can petition, what they can petition on and how they can be represented together by a common agent, if they want to be. That is what happened in my experience on HS2.
The instruction, as described by the Minister, would make the whole Bill part of the principle of the Bill. That is not common. In fact, I do not know of it happening before. The whole of the Bill cannot be made the principle, because that then makes it impossible for the petitioners to have their cases heard effectively. So I think we need to accept that the petitioners will be heard on nearly everything that is not an abuse. If someone says, “I do not want any money spent on it,” I can understand not allowing that. That is the principle, but the rest of it, I argue, is not.
Paragraph (3)(a) of motion 6 refers to a petition that relates to
“the question of whether or not there should be a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust or a centre for learning relating to the memorial, whether at Victoria Tower Gardens or elsewhere”.
I ask this explicitly: can either the Secretary of State or the Minister stand up and tell me now that, if someone wants to argue in front of the Committee that it would be better to have the basement box somewhere else and just have the memorial, would that petition potentially be heard by the Committee?
The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Michael Gove)
I think it would be a matter for the Committee.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I agree with the Secretary of State that it would be a matter for the Committee, but it is a matter for the Committee under the instructions.
By the way, if it helps those who are concerned about votes and trains, I intend to vote for both amendments, but force a Division only on one of them. I am trying to make sure that these issues will be considered in the House during the Bill’s remaining stages and in the House of Lords as well, where I suspect there will be a degree of scrutiny.
This hybrid procedure gives ordinary people a chance to have their voices heard, and it allows the Committee to insert conditions when the Bill comes back to the House. Those conditions, I believe, could include—I am not going to tell the Committee what it has to do, although I volunteer to be a member if anyone wants to put me on it—saying that the Government should, before this Bill comes back for its further stages on the Floor of the House, show the alternatives to the present plans.
I do not think we should rely on the planning inspector, whose conditions were rather odd before, or on the Secretary of State’s colleague making an independent decision on the Secretary of State’s application. I think that may formally be an acceptable procedure, but it is not one that anyone would justify if we were giving a lecture on democracy in another country.
I believe that the Committee should have the capacity or ability to hear petitions that say, “If the Government say that the memorial only takes up 7.5% of the land in Victoria Tower Gardens, that should be written in as a condition in the Bill.” I believe, notwithstanding the acceptability of paragraph (2)(a) about the money, that the Committee should be able to say that the House can consider the Bill on the condition that the total cost is not more than another £80 million, if we go ahead with the box, or preferably £20 million without the box, whether at the north end of Victoria Tower Gardens, or Parliament Square, or Whitehall, or College Green.
There are a whole series of other things I could say—I have a long, detailed speech and I apologise to those who helped me create the arguments—but I think the House will find it convenient if I leave it with this point. This hybrid Bill must be considered properly by the hybrid Committee, which should allow petitions to be heard. Local people will put their points of view forward. If some duplicate each other, hear them together, but do not exclude any point of practice or of principle if we want to get a holocaust memorial in the next two years. We will not with this process. It needs conditions to change it.
We will not even, in my view, get it within the next four or five years at £120 million, unless the Government wake up to the fact that this is sticking in a big box that does not do what the original plans wanted in a place where it is not appropriate. We can do better than that, and I ask the Secretary of State to recognise that that is the point of moving these amendments. I ask the House not to restrict the petitioners. The Government have now accepted that this is a hybrid Bill, so use the procedures properly and be democratic.
Felicity Buchan
I just want to address a few of the points that have been made. I clarify the fact that it is a matter for the Committee, ultimately, which petitioners to hear and which points to consider. This is a direction to the Committee, but, ultimately, especially in some of the examples, it would be for the Committee to decide. On whether to decide to set conditions—for instance, on the area of the garden—that would be within the remit of the Committee.
There was a discussion as to whether clause 2 was within the principle of the Bill. We have to remember that this is a Bill with only three clauses, one of which is about the extent of the Bill, so I would strongly argue that clause 1 and clause 2 are the principles of the Bill. In my mind, that is clear.
There was a concern raised that the planning decision would be made by a Minister in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. I want to reassure the House that we have the strictest processes in place to divide the decision-making principles, so no Minister involved in the Holocaust Memorial Bill will in any way be involved in the planning decision. To use the banking term, there will be the strictest of Chinese walls.
I want to reassure the House that we have done the consultation, as the Secretary of State and I have set out, and that we are launching a very transparent process. However, the purpose of the Committee is not to re-debate the principles in clauses 1 and 2; it is to discuss conditions and extent. I commend the motion to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Holocaust Memorial Bill: Instruction
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That it be an instruction to the Select Committee to which the Holocaust Memorial Bill is committed to deal with the Bill as follows:
(1) That the Committee treats the principle of the Bill, as determined by the House on the Bill’s Second Reading, as comprising the matters mentioned in paragraph 2; and those matters shall accordingly not be at issue during proceedings of the Committee.
(2) The matters referred to in paragraph (1) are—
(a) the Secretary of State may incur expenditure for or in connection with (i) a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust, and (ii) a centre for learning relating to the memorial; and
(b) section 8(1) and (8) of the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900 are not to prevent, restrict or otherwise affect the construction, use, operation, maintenance or improvement of such a memorial and centre for learning at Victoria Tower Gardens in the City of Westminster.
(3) Given paragraph (2) and as the Bill does not remove the need for planning permission and all other necessary consents being obtained in the usual way for the construction, use, operation, maintenance and improvement of the memorial and centre for learning, the Committee shall not hear any petition against the Bill to the extent that the petition relates to—
(a) the question of whether or not there should be a memorial commemorating the victims of the Holocaust or a centre for learning relating to the memorial, whether at Victoria Tower Gardens or elsewhere; or
(b) whether or not planning permission and all other necessary consents should be given for the memorial and centre for learning, or the terms and conditions on which they should be given.
(4) The Committee shall have power to consider any amendments proposed by the member in charge of the Bill which, if the Bill were a private bill, could not be made except upon petition for additional provision.
(5) Paragraph (4) applies only so far as the amendments proposed by the member in charge of the Bill fall within the principle of the Bill as provided for by paragraphs (1) and (2) above.
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.—(Felicity Buchan.)
Amendment proposed: (a), to leave out from “memorial” in paragraph (2)(a) to the end of paragraph (2)(b).—(Sir Peter Bottomley.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.