Grand Committee
Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]
Monday 25th November 2024
(2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL] 2024-26 View all Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL] 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 18-II Second marshalled list for Grand Committee - (21 Nov 2024)
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)
My Lords, in the unlikely event of a Division, the Committee will be adjourned for 10 minutes. Much more likely is that some Members may have been adversely affected by Storm Bert and may not be able to join us for this session.
Clause 1: Product regulations
Amendment 11
Lord Sharpe of Epsom
“(4A) The Secretary of State must also by regulations make provision aimed at promoting investment, fostering innovation, and encouraging economic growth in relation to the marketing or use of products in the United Kingdom.(4B) Regulations under subsection (4A) must support—(a) the creation of economic incentives for businesses that contribute to economic growth, and(b) the alignment of product regulations with the strategic aim of positioning the United Kingdom as a global leader in innovation”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that the regulations in the Bill prioritise economic growth and the United Kingdom’s role in innovation and economic expansion.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 11, I shall speak also to Amendments 104A and 124A in my name.
As highlighted by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, Clause 1 in its current form should be removed—a theme that we have explored already and to which we will no doubt return. This amendment, however, directly addresses a critical gap in the current Bill by ensuring that regulations do not focus merely on product safety, environmental concerns and operational efficiency but actively promote investment and foster innovation.
The news coming from today’s CBI conference makes sobering reading. The chief executive of the CBI has said that employers have been forced into “damage control mode”. The head of the company that makes McVitie’s digestive biscuits said that
“it’s becoming harder to understand what the case for investment is … to make a difference in the growth rate of the economy”.
Again, the chief exec has said that CFOs are asking, “Can we afford to invest?”
I have no wish to talk down the economy or try to score cheap party-political points, but the fact is that life has got harder for big business recently. No doubt noble Lords opposite will say, “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?” But they are also committed to providing an environment that fosters growth and I know them to be sincere in that ambition, so we should all take these comments seriously.
It is not just big business. Last week, analysis by the Altus Group said that the planned reduction in business rates relief would lead to a more than doubling of rates for shops, pubs and restaurants next year. Coupled with rises in national insurance contributions and other operational pressures, SMEs are facing difficult times. But they represent the heartbeat of our economy and some of them will hopefully go on to become big businesses.
In today’s competitive global economy, economic growth cannot be secondary. The Bill should prioritise creating an environment where businesses can thrive, develop new technologies and compete internationally. It is vital that our regulations should be aligned with the strategic aim of positioning the United Kingdom as a global leader in innovation. In the post-Brexit world, the UK’s economic success is intrinsically tied to its ability to lead in innovation, which is why my Amendment 11 is critical. It ensures that product regulation supports the creation of an environment conducive to technological advancement and cutting-edge industrial leadership. It strengthens the Bill by ensuring that it is not about just managing risks or regulating product use but about creating a dynamic, forward-thinking market where businesses have the tools, resources and incentives to innovate and expand. Without these provisions, there is a risk that the UK could fall behind in the global race for innovation and business growth. If we do not explicitly ensure that our regulations align with our growth objectives, we could inadvertently stifle entrepreneurship and technological progress.
So how are we to become a global leader? The answer surely lies in aligning ourselves with the strongest global partners in the world today. If we are to maintain and enhance our position as a leading economy, we must look beyond a single trading bloc, particularly one whose economic influence is shrinking on the global stage—a theme we explored in debate last Wednesday. For example, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, the CPTPP, represents some of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Countries such as Japan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, as well as emerging markets in Asia, are showing much more significant economic growth potential than others.
To lead the world, the UK must be flexible in its approach to trade and regulation. We need to reduce barriers and align ourselves with the economies that will drive future growth and innovation, rather than being tethered to a bloc that is not growing as fast as others. Amendment 11 in my name will enable us to do just that: focus on fostering global partnerships with the most dynamic economies.
Regarding Amendment 104A, a regulatory sandbox means an environment that allows businesses to explore and experiment with new, innovative products under regulatory supervision. This amendment is important for the development of innovative products affected by the Bill. It is an important step forward in fostering a regulatory environment that encourages creativity and innovation while ensuring safety and compliance. Regulatory sandboxes are an effective and proven model used to support businesses in testing innovative ideas. By introducing the importance of regulatory sandboxes in the Bill, we are not just helping businesses to navigate regulatory hurdles but promoting innovation by giving businesses the space to trial and refine their ideas.
Regulatory sandboxes will create a framework in which businesses can develop and test new products, contributing to the growth of the economy and the success of British businesses in the global marketplace. I urge noble Lords to support this amendment to pave the way for more innovation, more competitive businesses and, ultimately, a stronger economy.
I thank my noble friend Lady Lawlor for bringing forward Amendment 11A. The amendment is a clear and strong signal that we are committed to ensuring that our regulations actively foster economic growth, innovation and the global competitiveness of UK businesses. By encouraging the marketing and use of products in domestic and foreign markets, we are helping to open doors for UK businesses to grow their customer base, create jobs and increase exports. I commend my noble friend for this amendment. I look forward to a positive reception for all these amendments from the Government. I particularly look forward to the positive impact that they will have on businesses across the United Kingdom. I beg to move.
Baroness Lawlor (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 11A, which would insert a new subsection to the effect that regulations
“must promote growth and effective production, foster innovation and encourage the use and marketing of products in the UK’s domestic and foreign markets”.
I declare an interest in that I have commissioned a number of studies and analyses at Politeia, the think tank where I am research director, which aim to examine and promote UK international trade and the UK economy. I support the aims of safety, containing costs and compliance with safety regulations, but I urge that we think about products having to operate efficiently and effectively. The problem we face is how best to do this consistent with promoting the entrepreneurial and innovative instincts of those bringing new products to the market, who my noble friend Lord Sharpe mentioned, and the growth this allows. I support my noble friend’s amendment to put growth at the heart of this measure.
During the consultation process for a product regulatory framework since 2021, of which this Bill is the outcome, producers and their representatives stressed their priorities for regulation. I am grateful to the Government for their response to this long consultation process. Producers stressed that it should be outcomes-focused and risk-based, should have greater simplicity, proportionality and consistency across legislation and powers and should deal with the serious challenges and opportunities that this country now faces. A further consultation to develop the product safety regime took place in August 2023, with businesspeople and business representatives that are listed in the Government’s helpful response. It found broad agreement on the need for a regulatory approach that promotes a regime ready to respond to hazards but that allows temporary derogation during emergencies for supplying essential products—in other words, it is dynamic—and makes for safer online shopping and promotes digital labelling and an enhanced national regime.
The Minister said at Second Reading and has reiterated to this Committee that the Government have listened to business. Their priorities are summarised in the Government’s consultation document. They are designed to allow for effective operations and to promote growth as a priority, which I and my noble friend Lord Sharpe are urging we need. The rules should be demand-led and reflect the capacity of our businesses to innovate, be entrepreneurial and grow their workforces and their range of products along with the high standards and competitive costs that consumers want.
Nowhere in the Government’s response document do we find businesses wanting a regulatory regime that brings greater rigidity in process rather than being outcomes-led, one that is risk-averse rather than equipped to deal with the real level of risk posed by products or processes, one that treats every product as bearing the same risk or being under a one-size-fits-all rule, or a regime that is disproportionate, untargeted and unduly complex. Yet that scenario, rejected by business, is inherent in the EU legal arrangements that the Government wish to be able to adopt for our businesses under Clause 1(2), to which my amendment is addressed. That can only stymie growth, contrary to the express wishes of the Government. For those reasons, I propose that growth should take priority over the arbitrary exercise of power to introduce the rigidity and complexity of an EU system which is not outcomes-focused or risk-based; nor is it proportionate or known for simplicity.
I will give your Lordships an illustration, for which I owe thanks to Professor David Collins, who holds the chair of international economic and trade law at City, University of London. He draws attention to the unnecessarily burdensome EU REACH regulation—on the registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals. Collins explains that it has extensive requirements for registering very low-risk substances. For example, certain food-grade natural substances that have been used safely for centuries will require expensive registration. Under the EU’s REACH, if a company uses more than one tonne per year of natural fruit extracts or oils, and products such as soaps or cosmetics, it needs full registration, including extensive safety data packages, even when these substances have been safely used in food for ages. This can cost tens of thousands of euros per substance. The relevant EU legislation is Regulation (EC) 1907/2006 REACH, and the key sections on registration requirements are primarily in Title II, Articles 5/24.
The EU’s post-Brexit UK REACH maintains similar core principles but has proposed a more proportionate approach for these well-established natural substances, with simplified registration requirements planned for ingredients with long histories of safe use. Although the overall goal of chemical safety is vital, requiring extensive registration for substances such as olive oil or lemon extract when used in non-food products adds to cost without proportionate safety benefit, and it is not needed. The safety of these materials could be adequately assured through simpler mechanisms. The UK REACH regulation, created through the REACH etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, Statutory Instrument 2019/758, aims to do this and does it very effectively.
Moreover—I refer to my noble friend Lord Sharpe urging that we align the UK economy with the strongest, most dynamic economies in the world—by relying on our own laws it will not only help our businesses but will allow us to do exactly that. My noble friend Lord Sharpe mentioned the CPTPP agreement; as Professor Collins says, it
“does not mandate blanket mutual recognition of conformity assessments for food safety among its members”
but it does
“include provisions that encourage members to accept other members’ conformity assessment results. It also facilitates acceptance of conformity assessment results through mechanisms like technical discussions and explanations of requirements. It also allows for sector-specific mutual recognition arrangements to be negotiated between members”—
which are very important. Professor Collins continues:
“So the CPTPP promotes regulatory cooperation and transparency but preserves each member’s right to maintain their own food safety standards and assessment procedures. Members must ensure their requirements are based on science and international standards where they exist, but aren’t required to automatically accept other members’ assessments. This is similar to what the WTO TBT Agreement does, but it goes further in terms of cooperation”.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
My Lords, I came here full of hope and expectation this afternoon; indeed, I even indicated to my noble friend Lord Sharpe that, on this occasion, I was here to support his Amendment 11 and Amendment 11A in the name of my noble friend Lady Lawlor, because, as one reads them on the page, they seem to have a lot of merit. However, I regret that, as my noble friends have spoken, they have in their speeches used these amendments to diminish the importance of our major market in Europe and our relationship with the European Union. Noble Lords will be delighted to know that I am not, therefore, going to concentrate any further on those matters but shall instead turn immediately—to my own relief and that of those parties—to Amendments 104A and 124A.
I want to refer in particular to sandboxes, a very interesting area that most members of the public probably do not have a clue about, other than from their visits to coastal regions during the summer holidays. Of course, sandboxes are terribly important in the context of this Bill. My noble friend Lord Sharpe was right to allude to them and to say how important they are; indeed, there are already in place regulations referring to their use, to how IP can be protected, as has been mentioned to me, and so on. However, I want to broaden this issue out a tiny bit. In winding up on this group, can the Minister clarify the way in which sandboxes are protected and how, from the point of view of UK plc, we can make use of them without danger either to the thinking that goes into innovation in them or to the overall position of this country apropos markets, wherever they may be in the world?
I am particularly interested—I know that other noble Lords present this afternoon may well speak on this—in sandbox use in the development of technology and AI. This is an area in which this country has every opportunity to lead the world. Certainly, sandboxes are one way that one can experiment and bring in new ideas without the risk or danger of them being exploited by others, against the interests of this country. I merely say that I support Amendments 104A and 124A, in the principles that they debate, but I would like the Minister to clarify how we can bring together sandboxes, in whichever field they may be deployed, to the benefit of the country.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I apologise that I was not able to be with the Committee on its first day, nor will I for much of this afternoon, but I look forward to returning for my amendments on Wednesday. I support my noble friend Lord Sharpe’s amendment.
When we debated the regulation of medical devices in the Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021, we established that safety and safeguarding public health was its overriding objective. However, we went on to say in what is now Section 15(3) of that Act that in considering whether regulations should be made, and whether they would contribute to the objective of safeguarding public health,
“the Secretary of State must have regard to”—
I commend that language to my noble friend, rather than “must support”, which I think takes it a bit far and creates conflicting duties—
“the safety of medical devices … the availability of medical devices … the likelihood of the United Kingdom being seen as a favourable place in which to … carry out research relating to medical devices … develop medical devices, or … manufacture or supply medical devices”.
I draw attention to the third of those. The structure of the existing legislation on the product requirements for medical devices already incorporates an expectation that we consider economic activity, economic growth and our comparative position in the manufacture or supply of such products. I say to my noble friend that that is an alternative formulation which thoroughly supports, through the precedent of a very closely related area of regulation, the idea that economic activity of that form should be part of the consideration of whether and how regulations should be made.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, for their contributions on Amendments 11 and 11A, which specify that regulations made under the Bill should promote investment, foster innovation and encourage economic growth and investment. This Government are committed to attracting investment, as illustrated by the £63 billion pledged at the recent international investment summit. Britain is open for business.
I assure noble Lords that growth is the number one mission of this Government and our new industrial strategy, to be published in the spring, is central to it. The strategy will focus on tackling sector-specific and cross-cutting barriers to growth for our highest-potential growth-driving sectors and places, creating the right conditions for increased investment and high-quality jobs and ensuring a tangible impact in communities right across this country.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, for his Amendments 104A and 124A, which seek to create regulatory sandboxes where new products could be trialled under regulatory supervision, as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope. I recognise and welcome the intention behind the amendments, which seek to encourage innovation. The Office for Product Safety and Standards within my department already works to provide businesses with guidance and support as they develop and market products. We also support local authorities in their work as primary authorities. This allows businesses to receive assured and tailored advice on meeting environmental health, trading standards or fire safety regulations from a single local authority, then applying this advice nationally. The underpinnings of our product safety regime are based on extensive engagement with businesses. Whether it is on regulatory change, the development of standards or the work of the OPSS as a regulator, the relevant bodies consult extensively across industry.
I am always open to new ideas on how to support businesses to innovate. I understand that in 2022 the Office for Product Safety and Standards supported the Home Office in a regulatory sandbox trialling electronic ID for alcohol sales. However, I am concerned about mandating regulatory sandboxes in the Bill. Product safety is, after all, about avoiding potentially serious risks to people and their property, and anything that would relax regulations in this way, even as a trial, would need careful consideration. It could also commit local responsible authorities to run trials in their areas without sufficient consultation or preparation. This could place an undue burden on local authorities, diverting resources and capacity from their primary responsibilities.
This Government are committed to ensuring that any regulations made under this Bill will support the interests of UK businesses and consumers, providing regulatory certainty and creating the conditions for investment, innovation and economic growth. The Government are always open to debate to ensure that we can support businesses to deliver safe and effective products. I hope I have demonstrated to the noble Lord the extent to which regulators already work closely with businesses to achieve this.
In response to the point from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, about SMEs, I was an SME once; we do not want to burden SMEs with additional regulatory or financial cost, if possible. This Government are pro-business and pro-worker and have provided certainty, consistency and confidence—for which investors have been looking for a very long time. Massive tax reliefs are available to investors through the EIS, the SEIS, VCTs and all kinds of grants, including patent grants for any new industries. The Government have shown that we are committed to investment and growth.
I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to fostering growth through all our policies. This will be set out in more detail in the forthcoming industrial strategy, which we will publish in the spring. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank all speakers, in particular my noble friend Lady Lawlor for so eloquently introducing her amendment. I say to my noble friend Lord Kirkhope that my remarks are in no way meant to diminish any of our trading relationships; the point is that these amendments are designed to look after our national interest. It may well be that aligning with the EU is in our national interest, in which case we absolutely should, but if it is not, then we should not, and any reference to relative economic growth is merely factual. I thank my noble friend very much indeed for his supportive remarks on Amendments 104A and 124A.
I also thank my noble friend Lord Lansley for his perspective, which will be very helpful when we come to later stages of the Bill. I also thank the Minister for his remarks, which provided helpful clarity. I take comfort from the fact that he remains open to new ideas. We will consider his remarks carefully but are very pleased to hear his reassurances regarding SMEs. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Crawley
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would broaden the definition of items subject to the new regulatory framework of product regulation to ensure that all digital as well as non-digital products are within scope.
Baroness Crawley (Lab)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 12 in my name and those of the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, I also support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, to his new post and thank my noble friend the Minister for his courtesy in organising several meetings for Peers and organisations interested in this Bill; it was remiss of me not to do so earlier.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
My Lords, this is an important group of amendments. No doubt, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, will shortly set out his amendments but, as I understand them, by deleting bits of the Bill they provide an opportunity for us to have a debate on what is meant by a “product” and by the “use of products”. The other two amendments are in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and my noble friend Lord Fox and have a similar purpose. My noble friend cannot be with us today because he is abroad on parliamentary business in connection with NATO. These amendments will help us to get more clarity on what is covered by a “product” and its use and will help to future-proof the legislation, in the case of Amendment 12 by ensuring that all digital and non-digital products are within scope and in the case of Amendment 13 by ensuring that all operating systems and internet-connected products are within scope.
The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, very clearly set out the arguments for why this is needed, and I fully support her, but my noble friend Lord Fox’s amendment, which is also a probing amendment, seeks to find out whether the Government’s intention is that operating systems and interconnected products will be covered by the provisions of the Bill. Some may recall that in an earlier grouping I expressed concern about what appears to be the limited way in which the Government consider products as just things. I sought to explain that we cannot always consider a product in isolation as some products are installed as part of a system, and I argued that we should take the whole system into account.
My noble friend’s amendment expresses a similar point. It seeks to ensure that the Bill recognises that the operational characteristics of many products are, effectively, changeable. For instance, household products are increasing controlled by operating systems that can be and are controlled by the vendor remotely. The legislation needs to take this into account in two separate ways. The first, and most simple, is that there should be a clear obligation on the vendor to demonstrate good faith in ensuring its products’ operating systems are up to date and are protected, for example, from external malign attack. Secondly, there needs to be a process whereby material changes in the characteristics of a product continue to meet regulations that they met before the changes.
Many noble Lords will already have heard my noble friend Lord Fox’s particular concern about references to the health and safety of domestic animals in the Bill. He has picked it up on several occasions. He sought to explain his amendment to me in relation to those references. He pointed out that, for example, a remote vacuum cleaner may be programmed to behave in a way that ensures that family pets are not in danger of being harmed by it. He went on to point out that a remote change might disregard this safeguard and so endanger the health and safety of domestic animals. My noble friend argues that without his amendment, or something similar, it would appear that there is no way in which the measures in the Bill could enable the policing of such remote revisions to product properties.
More generally, these amendments in this group seek to probe the Government further on what they believe are covered by “products” and which uses of products are covered by the proposed legislation. I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s response on those issues and to hearing the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, explain his amendments more effectively than I have sought to do.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, for her remarks. Obviously, defining “products” is a key consideration in much of what we have to discuss in this Bill. It is a subject to which we will return later today. I thank the noble Lords for introducing their amendments. It was very eloquently done. They certainly deserve consideration and comprehensive answers from the Government.
I will speak to Amendments 18 and 19 standing in my name. The Bill as it stands—and I am afraid this is going to be rather labouring a point that we discussed a lot last week—has been widely criticised for being skeleton legislation with much of the substance being delegated to Ministers through statutory instruments. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has rightly pointed out that this leaves “almost no substance” or perhaps, as the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, described it, no clear markers in the Bill, giving Ministers excessive and unaccountable discretion to regulate in important areas, such as product marketing and safety, without sufficient parliamentary scrutiny or oversight.
Clause 2 is a prime example of this, because it grants wide powers to Ministers to make regulations on a wide range of product characteristics—but without any clear or substantive detail. By keeping paragraph (a), the Bill opens the door to the possibility of Ministers creating regulations that lack transparency or specificity. I find the wording concerning and unnecessarily vague. For example, the phrase “other characteristics of products”—or, as the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, described it, “just things”—is far too broad and could allow the Government to regulate anything under this clause, with little or no clear limit or definition.
The lack of clarity here is a significant issue, not least because businesses and producers rely on clear, specific regulations to know what is expected of them and to ensure that they remain compliant. Under this clause, they are left in the dark. What exactly are we talking about when we refer to “other characteristics”? Are we talking about the design of products, marketing methods or even the raw materials that are used in manufacturing? Small businesses and start-ups are especially vulnerable to such unclear regulations, as they may struggle to interpret or comply with such an open-ended provision.
This provision, in effect, gives Ministers the power to define and change the scope of regulations without sufficient clarity or transparency. Ministers could, under this clause, make regulations to cover an incredibly wide range of product characteristics, creating significant uncertainty for the market. We believe that this is an unacceptable level of ministerial discretion. With such a clause, the Government could, in effect, regulate anything and everything related to products. We do not think that we can afford to pass a Bill that leaves businesses and consumers in the dark and subject to the whims of ministerial power. This clause should be completely rewritten or removed. If the Government cannot provide a more specific targeted framework for these regulations, we must consider removing it entirely on Report.
With Amendment 19, there are the same issues. At present, there is no clear definition of what constitutes the “use of products”, nor any explanation as to how the Government intend to regulate it. This lack of clarity presents a significant issue, as it allows Ministers broad and undefined discretion to determine how products should be used and how they are to be regulated. This could easily lead to overreach, and, given how the Government have argued so far in some areas, regulations could be imposed with little or no accountability or scrutiny, leaving businesses uncertain about the future of their operations.
I am very pleased that the Minister has talked repeatedly about giving businesses certainty, particularly in aligning with EU regulations. However, we need more in the Bill to suggest certainty in the areas that I have just described, and I hope that he will be able to provide some reassurance.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, as technology and regulation continue to develop, we need new powers to address future threats and hazards and to ensure a continued supply of safe, accurate and compliant goods.
I thank my noble friend Lady Crawley and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for their Amendments 12 and 13, and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, who introduced the latter. I agree that we need a robust product safety framework that can reflect the latest risks and hazards and keep consumers safe and protected. The Government have worked hard to ensure that the powers in the Bill capture the multitude of products that fall within our product safety framework, as well as new products that might be placed on the market and present risks to consumers in future.
For the purposes of the Bill, products are defined as
“tangible items that … result from”
a “method of production”. This definition ensures that we can capture a wide range of manufactured products marketed or used in the UK, from cosmetics to complex machinery. There are a number of instances where our current regulation and product safety work covers software: for example, where certain products are reliant on software, or our work to enforce certain software security requirements under telecommunications legislation. Following my noble friend Lady Crawley’s comments on smart doorbells, I confirm that an app connected to a smart doorbell would be covered by the Bill where it affects the physical safety of the product. The Product Regulation and Metrology Bill would ensure that our general ability to regulate the safety of all products can take account of software, as well as the impact of software on the performance of any particular product.
Let me assure noble Lords that we have carefully considered the scope of products that we seek to cover, and we are future-proofing as much as we can by allowing regulations to also cover intangible components of physical products. This includes things such as software, as I mentioned, where they form part of a tangible product. As such, the Bill will allow us to regulate interconnected products in so far as the safety of the physical product is affected. In this way, we can ensure that we are able to regulate the role of these intangible components in the risk that physical products may present.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
I am grateful, because this takes this back in a sense to an earlier group. The Minister has again referred to the issue of installation. Can he say categorically, on the issue of use, whether use will always include installation—or is it that it “may” include installation, as he said? Is it “will” or “may”?
Lord Leong (Lab)
I can give the noble Lord the assurance that it is “will”.
Baroness Crawley (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister and the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Foster, who have contributed to this short but useful debate.
I will not repeat the valid and important points that have been made, but I ask the Minister to have another look at the Bill’s definition of “product” in the light of our discussion this afternoon. However, I accept his explanation of software regulation going forward: that was an important point he made. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Holmes of Richmond
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this second day of Committee on the Bill, and a pleasure to speak on this group of amendments. I will move Amendment 14 in my name and speak also to Amendments 54, 75 to 78 and 99 to 101. In doing so, I declare my interests, not least my technology interests, as set out in the register, in particular as an adviser to Socially Recruited, an AI company.
The purpose of these amendments is to bring greater clarity to consumers, citizens and indeed our whole society and economy when it comes to the interaction of AI across so many sectors of our lives, not least in product production, deployment and use. Each amendment has a specific focus. When taken as a suite, they would make a significant difference to citizens’ and consumers’ understanding of where AI has been used in the production of a product or is inherent to the deployment and use of that product—which can only be a positive thing.
Amendment 14 seeks to amend the definition of “production” to highlight where AI has been involved in the production process. As with the previous group of amendments, I could just as easily have drafted an amendment expanding the definition of “product”, because it seems that, with the Bill as drafted, we have a product regulation regime and a production of product regime that do not really fit the economy, society and methods of production we now have across our daily experience.
I will give another example. We have had doorbells and out-of-control vacuum cleaners, potentially. Now let me give you the Minister’s fridge. After a hard day in Committee, the Minister returns home and takes out a lovely piece of soft cheese. Unfortunately, because the AI involved in that fridge has decided, for whatever reason—we know not—to increase the temperature in the fridge to 25 degrees, the Minister becomes very ill as a result of his midnight snack. How does the Bill help the Minister in his travails? The fridge is clearly a product and would be covered, but in no sense can the safety, operation and use of the fridge be of any benefit in the set of circumstances that resulted from AI acting in the way it did. That is what Amendment 14 is all about and I look forward to the Minister’s response on how the Bill could be amended to give better protection, certainty and understanding where AI is involved in the production of products, and indeed in the products themselves.
Similarly, that theme continues through Amendment 54. I believe that, if we are to have greater clarity and consistency, it would be helpful for the Government to undertake a review of all product legislation and regulation, both to see how it would deal with all the issues, opportunities and challenges around artificial intelligence and to assess all that statute and regulatory framework’s ability to look at competency in addressing AI, in terms of how it is operating and having an impact on so many people’s lives because of the products in which it is already embedded, whose use it is part of and which it controls. Oftentimes, it has an impact on people without them even knowing that AI is in the mix. I look forward to the Minister’s response on this potential review.
Amendments 75 to 78 look at labelling. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for signing Amendment 75; similarly, I should have thanked the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for co-signing Amendment 14. If consumers are to have greater understanding of the products they are buying, it would seem helpful for there to be labelling of that product—simple labelling stating that AI was involved in the production of the product and/or is involved in the product. By this, I mean not only a simple label to alert consumers if that is the case but a QR code with far more detail so that all consumers can be aware of the AI elements of a product’s production, particularly in terms of its power usage, water usage and compute usage. Clause 5 of my Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill, to which the Minister in opposition gave full-throated support, covers a number of these issues. I am interested in the Minister’s response to the concept of labelling around product where AI has been involved in the production of a product or is involved in its use.
Amendment 76 goes specifically to the music industry, where artificial intelligence itself has created music products. Again, to my mind, this should be labelled so that consumers know how music has come into being—that is, if it is simply AI-generated with no human involvement.
Amendment 77 offers a statutory option for the Minister to consider amending the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which would give far greater clarity to musicians—indeed, to all creatives across our economy and our society. The current situation is that many creatives find themselves on the wrong end of AI usage of their creative works, with no respect, no consent and no remuneration.
Amendment 78 moves us on and takes us into the areas of likeness and other elements of our personal IP. If AI products take such IP rights, this is not currently covered. I am interested in the Minister’s response as to how we can give our creative community greater clarity, greater comfort and greater support—and, through such labelling and statutory amendment, give far greater legislative cover not just to musicians but to all of our creatives, right across our society and our economy.
Amendments 99 to 101 look at potentially developing new metrology standards for AI data centres and search. Again, they cover these recurrent themes of consumer knowledge, consumer understanding and clarity around what is involved in AI-created products and products with AI in them. It is unlikely that many people who conduct an AI search or query, particularly on the new generative AI models, know the impact of every search in terms of its power usage, its water usage and its compute usage. Similarly, how many of us consider the water usage and compute power of what might seem like a more heritage search—that is, how much is involved in each and every one of those searches? Does the Minister agree that it would be helpful for the Government to undertake a programme of consultation to see whether new metrology standards could be developed? This would be helpful for consumers, businesses and developers in delivering clarity around what is involved in these new product creations.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
I am very grateful for the explanation from the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, of his amendments on AI and digital products, which are particularly appropriate, given the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the first group when we were discussing sandboxes, because of his experience during the passage of the digital medicines Act three or four years ago. A number of noble Lords in this Grand Committee worked on that—I am looking at the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in particular.
I raise this because one area that concerns me about new products, especially those using AI, is that we do not have the same mechanisms that we have, full of fault though they are, for being able to allow our personal information to be used and to give our consent. I have mentioned before the issue of my dentist. Before you go to see your dentist, you have to go online to fill in a consent form, and at some point mid last year I noticed that there was something about the IT suppliers and it said, “It is assumed you give your consent”—and 10 layers further down they had a completely different set of consents that breached UK GDPR law. Had I not been working on another Bill about digital consent, I would not have looked much further. I have to say that the moment my dental surgery was aware of this, that firm was not just told to change it but was sacked. My problem with AI is that none of that work is visible; it is completely invisible.
My question to the Minister is, in the discussion about sandboxes but also about products that will come under this Bill: will he ensure that our current GDPR laws—and indeed our copyright laws in relation to music—are complied with at all times, so that there would not be any freedom for somebody using AI to develop a product to breach those? I say that in light of the final remark the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, made about consultation. Two sets of Government Ministers have had a very bitter time about patient data and care.data—the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is smiling at me—when the public were not fully informed about what was going on, and in both cases the proposals had to be abandoned.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
My Lords, the first amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, Amendment 14, seeks to ensure that the production reliance on software and artificial intelligence are included in the scope of the Bill. Clearly, all our remarks are somewhat irrelevant if the Minister gets up and says, “No, they are not”. However, on the assumption that the Minister is going to say, “Yes, they are”, I draw particular attention, if I may, in supporting all the noble Lord’s amendments, to Amendments 75 to 78, on the issue of labelling. This seems to me to be an opportunity for real joined-up government thinking.
The Minister will be well aware that the Communications and Digital Committee, on which I had the opportunity to serve at the time of this, produced a very detailed report on the development of LLMs, large language models, and AI. In so doing, we particularly raised concern about the way in which these large language models were being trained by scraping tons of data from a variety of sources, then creating products over which they were then able to get intellectual property coverage. In so doing, they had scraped a great deal of data.
Amendment 78 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, in respect of the labelling and so on, requires the Secretary of State to lay
“regulations to ensure no product or content … uses an individual’s image, likeness or personality rights without that individual’s express consent”.
Had I been drafting the amendment, I would have gone much further, because it seems to me that a large amount of other data is scraped—for instance, novels written by authors without their permission. I could go on; it is well worth looking at the Select Committee report.
Does the Minister accept that this is a real opportunity to have joined-up thinking, when the Government finally decide what their position is in relation to the training of LLMs and people being required to get the permission of all data owners before they can bring their product to market? Does he agree that the labelling of such products, when developed, should include specific reference to them having gained the appropriate permission, paid the appropriate fee or got the appropriate licence to make use of the data that was made use of in the training of those AI products?
Baroness Freeman of Steventon (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendment 75, which was very eloquently introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. My academic background is in the research of communication and how people make decisions based on information that they are given. That touches quite a lot on how people assess the reliability and trustworthiness of data.
Amendment 75, on the labelling of AI-based products, includes a proposal about communicating the data used in the training of the AI. I think it is really important that people who have products that provide information on which they might be making decisions, or the product might be acting, are able to know the reliability and trustworthiness of that information. The cues that people use for assessing that reliability are such things as the size of the dataset, how recently that data was gathered and the source of that data—because they want to know if that data, to use the example of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, is on American cheeses, British cheeses or Italian cheeses, all of which might need a different temperature in your fridge. I urge the Minister to look at this, because the over-trust or the under-trust in the outputs of data make such a difference to how people respond to products. I think this is very important.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
My Lords, as one of the unfortunate authors of the GDPR, I am very interested to hear the remarks that have been made about possible abuse of the use of data. First, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes very much for his amendments because, obviously, without proper consideration of the effects in technology and the fast-moving developments of AI, no legislation, particularly the sort of legislation, will really pass muster, so I support his amendments very much.
However, as far as GDPR is concerned, we brought into all of that a term that many of our European Union friends were not going to include at the time: proportional. In relation to how we deal with alleged data abuse, whether or not it is simply a question of small areas of data that have been used for good purposes or otherwise, it is important that we remember at all times that the heavy hand must be looked at carefully and that proportionality must always be remembered as being relevant to the way in which we deal with the use of data.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for his superb introduction to this group. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for confirming my suspicion of dentists.
I shall speak in general terms because I cannot improve on the eloquence with which my noble friend Lord Holmes put his arguments. To return to the point, these amendments illustrate the limitations of Clauses 1 and 2, I am afraid. These amendments have considerable merit on a stand-alone basis but, in aggregate, they—Amendments 75 to 78 in particular—would in effect seek to define artificial intelligence. This is obviously a fast-moving and rapidly evolving subject; frankly, it deserves a national, never mind parliamentary, debate, as my noble friend Lord Holmes eloquently argued. AI will clearly demand definition and regulation, as the noble Lord, Lord Foster, rightly pointed out. Philosophically, I am not even sure that it qualifies as a product in the traditional sense; frankly, what is in this Bill suggests that we do not really know.
I cannot help thinking that some of the arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Leong, in our debate on the previous group reinforce this point to some extent. AI can be benign, obviously, but the same application might not be. So, how do we define risk in these terms, even if it regards only the temperature of cheese? I therefore question whether this Bill is the right vehicle for these amendments or whether AI deserves a stand-alone debate and argument. The fact that they are in scope again illustrates, as I said earlier, the inherent weaknesses of Clauses 1 and 2. They are too broad and lack definitions. Ideally, they should be removed; at the very least, they should be extensively rewritten and tightened. I hope that the Government will listen but, if they do not, I will certainly have conversations with my noble friend Lord Holmes about what we shall do next.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have spoken. The use of software and AI in physical products covered by our product regulation regime is still in its early days. It is important to take the opportunity of this Bill to ensure that future regulation can keep pace with technological change.
The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, would require a review of all product regulations in terms of how AI may impact them and a specific labelling requirement for AI. The Bill gives powers to ensure that product regulation can be updated or new regulations can be passed to cover emerging risks. They include measures such as labelling and verification requirements. However, mandating specific measures in the Bill would limit our ability to determine the most effective ways to protect consumers. A more flexible approach will allow us to adapt as this technology evolves and to ensure that protections remain robust and relevant.
To be clear, this Bill does not seek to regulate digital products or artificial intelligence in and of themselves; it is focused on the regulation of physical products and future-proofs our ability to keep product and metrology regulation up to date with emerging technologies. The Government have a wider programme of work on the regulation of artificial intelligence, where, in most cases, the UK’s expert regulators are responsible for enforcing the rules on AI in their domains; we are working with regulators to ensure that they have the resources and expertise to do this effectively.
Additionally, as set out in the King’s Speech, the Government will bring forward separate legislation to ensure the safe development of AI models by introducing targeted requirements on companies developing the most powerful AI systems. We will undertake a full public consultation to hone these proposals before presenting them to Parliament in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, raised the issues of data protection and intellectual property. As we know, UK GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018 form the legal framework for protecting personal data in the UK; this already covers things such as personal data, photographs and voice recordings.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, I thank everybody who took part in this debate and the Minister for his response. I am convinced that there will be a number of issues to discuss between Committee and Report—certainly to return to when we reach Report—but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Brinton
“(c) EU REACH regulation restrictions that are applied to the manufacture, placing on the market, and use of certain chemicals to mitigate unacceptable risks to human health or the environment;”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment ensures that EU REACH regulations covering certain chemicals are included in the Bill.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, REACH regulations cover the safety of chemicals. We simply ask: how can the Bill regulate cosmetics without considering the safety of the chemicals used to manufacture them? I do not buy the idea that Defra is in charge of chemical regulations—in the same way that the DWP is in charge of the chemicals database, other than via its responsibilities in managing the Health and Safety Executive. I will come back to a regulation that the DWP presented to the Grand Committee last year. So, should the Bill ignore chemicals or not? We need an explicit reference in the Bill to cover it. We have talked a lot about AI but the use of chemicals is equally important, particularly in online marketplaces.
I am sure that the selection of EU REACH rather than British REACH will raise certain hackles. I would grab any REACH in a storm, but the EU one is a system that functions, unlike its British cousin, which has proved expensive to business and is failing to react to new challenges.
Over a year ago, I was substituting for my noble friend Lord Fox when the biocidal products regulations 2022 were being discussed in Grand Committee. I think that none of us, including the then Minister, if she were honest, knew very much of what we were talking about. However, it was the most illuminating regulation that I have ever taken part in. We discovered that this was, in essence, a time extension for the use of the EU chemicals database, because Whitehall had not understood that the day we left the EU, we would lose access to the chemicals database. As a result, the Health and Safety Executive had to take on a very large number of staff. Its chemicals sections had increased by 30% to try to rewrite the chemicals database while also consulting with users, whether they were manufacturers importing, exporting or creating in this country. We know that there are systems out there that work but because of our bizarre structures, we tend to have government departments that are not focused on chemicals.
The cosmetics industry imports many of its ingredients from the EU, and often in very small quantities. These would certainly be covered by EU REACH, because these sales represent such a tiny proportion of total production. If there were a substantive difference between EU REACH and British REACH, it is unlikely that the manufacturer would invest in accrediting its products in the UK, causing the UK cosmetic manufacturer either to stop making its product or to move manufacture to the EU—hence my noble friend Lord Fox’s proposal about REACH in this amendment.
Can the Minister confirm whether, under the terms of the Bill as it stands, if a product contains a chemical that was allowed by EU REACH but blocked by British REACH, and yet it conformed to QC standards, it would be legal in Britain? That is what this amendment seeks to clarify. Given the interconnected nature of the UK and EU chemicals industries, it offers a route for aligning the UK chemical regulation with that of the EU. But perhaps the Minister thinks that the current wording of Clause 1(1) means that it could be used to amend and update UK REACH to align with EU REACH. I beg to move.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to both amendments in this group, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for her introduction of them.
When examining the purport of these amendments and considering whether to include provisions that require us to adopt regulations that correspond with the EU’s REACH provisions, I suggest that the metric by which we should judge that is simple. Would doing so make the people of this country safer? Every other consideration should be secondary to that.
As I said both at Second Reading and in Committee last week—I apologise to those who have heard this before, but it is worth repeating—the past few years have seen a significant divergence between the UK’s approach to chemical regulation and that of the EU. The previous Government decided to leave REACH—the EU’s body responsible for the registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals and their regulations—and to set up a parallel organisation.
Since then, we have not adopted a single registered restriction on a harmful substance, compared with 10 new protections offered by EU regulation, including on harmful microplastics deliberately added to products. While REACH has regulated PFAS in the EU, not a single river or water body in England is in good chemical health. Since we left REACH, the EU has initiated 23 risk assessments related to harmful substances, while we have initiated three.
In considering why that is the case, I point to two contextual factors. This is not a function of the legislative constraints. The Government have the power under the EU withdrawal Act and Schedule 21 to the Environment Act to adopt new restrictions and controls where necessary. However, reviews undertaken by the NAO and the Public Accounts Committee in 2022 pointed to a lack of operational capacity and insufficient data as factors that have hampered the ability of the UK’s chemical regulator properly to do its job. For instance, brominated flame retardants were identified as a risk to health and globally significant exposure rates were identified in this country. Indeed, they were identified as a regulatory priority over two years ago and a review was promised. So far, no review has been published and it is difficult to discern how this apparent priority has been acted upon, if at all.
However, while the EU has added eight flame-retardant chemicals to its list of substances of very high concern, no substances in this category have been added to the parallel UK list. The EU restrictions road map has proposed a ban on brominated flame retardants while no equivalent step has been proposed, let alone planned. This is not because we have data which diverges from that upon which the EU has based its conclusions but because we are working more slowly. I vividly remember the promises of greater regulatory agility and speed which would inevitably result once we were free of the sclerotic influence of the EU. This example is but one of many—including lead in PVC, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons in synthetic football pitches and formaldehyde in wood furniture—which suggest that far from being more agile and responsive, our current system of chemical regulation is slower, less efficient and consequently less safe than its predecessor.
In April this year, Hazards magazine published a parallel analysis of the 25 new standards that have been introduced across the EU since our departure in 2020 and the UK’s response. Of the 25 standards, 12 were identical. There were 10 in which the UK’s standard was weaker, sometimes significantly. Only in one case has the UK adopted more protective measures than the European standard. Again, this is suggestive of regulatory incapacity as much as a deliberate exercise of our power independently to regulate.
Fiscal stringency creates significant challenges in remedying this situation, but both these amendments obviate the need for the otherwise necessary significant increase in investment in our chemical regulator. Ensuring that our domestic regulations correspond with those of REACH not only offers greater safety but removes a barrier to trade and promises to ease the burden on our chemical regulator which, as I said earlier, the NAO and Public Accounts Committee suggested has compromised its ability to work with appropriate speed.
At Second Reading, my noble friend the Minister said, in response to a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that the Government are currently considering the best approach to chemical regulation in the UK separately to this Bill. In deciding our approach to these amendments, it would be extremely useful if my noble friend who is responding to this debate could at least give us an idea of the direction of travel on this. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, made the point also at Second Reading that the absence of such a Bill from the King’s Speech makes it unlikely that we will see it in this Session. That being so, what plans do the Government have, in the absence of adopting the amendments that are the subject of this discussion, to exercise the powers in Clause 2(7) to ensure that we catch up and keep pace with the EU chemical regulation?
Baroness Lawlor (Con)
My Lords, I will make a very brief intervention because I want to repeat my illustration from the first group about the REACH regulations. I have concerns about including this amendment to Clause 1 at line 13 of page 2 of the Bill as I do not agree that the EU REACH regulations are necessarily better equipped to target sectors and individual products than UK regulations. I will not go through the reasons I gave earlier. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, whose introduction I learned a great deal from and am very grateful for, mentioned cosmetics. In my earlier intervention I pointed to the use of olive oil and lemon in some soaps and said that UK REACH regulations recognise that these products can be eaten safely and, indeed, have been used for a long time. Requiring, as EU REACH does, that they go through stringent chemical REACH processes and labelling is a bit over the top and would put expense on our producers. I urge us to think of the wider implications of unsensitive or disproportion regulation where we can.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I will speak to Amendment 16 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, which was introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.
Regarding the EU’s REACH scheme, I shall refer to a specific example which relates to my time at the Home Office in the previous Government. It relates to cosmetics, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and my noble friend Lady Lawlor. In 2019, the Home Office aligned UK policy with two decisions by the European Chemicals Agency board of appeal which related to the testing on animals for the registration of cosmetics-only substances—specifically homosalate and 2-ethylhexyl salicylate. The marketing of cosmetics tested on animals is banned in the EU under cosmetics products regulation, but the ECHA—the European Chemicals Agency—confirmed that under REACH substances used solely in cosmetics may sometimes be tested on animals, as a last resort, to prove their safety for workers or the environment.
An NGO called Cruelty Free International, quite rightly, in my view, took the Government to court arguing that the UK’s alignment in effect led to the weakening of the long-standing—I think it was a 25-year—ban on animal testing of cosmetics and cosmetic ingredients. The UK court found in the Government’s favour but as the then Minister for Animals in Science, which somewhat surprisingly sits with the Home Office, the Home Secretary and I were firmly of the opinion that this was unjustified, so as of May 2023 we decided that no new licences should be issued to carry out this function. A small number of licences had been issued between 2019 and 2022.
The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, made persuasive arguments about why it might be in this country’s interest to align with the EU but, equally, it might not be, and this is a very nuanced subject. Failings of the domestic chemicals regulator—real or imagined—are an entirely separate subject. Alignment with, or invention of, our own rules that suit our national and public interest most definitely is in our interest. When I say public interest, in this case 76% of the public are against animal testing according to the RSPCA. So can I ask the Minister to guarantee that this ban on new licences in these cases will be maintained? I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, is not here because I was going to ask him if, in the spirit of nominative determinism, he would withdraw his Amendment 16. However, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that it certainly raised hackles, not necessarily human ones.
On the subject of dynamic alignment, I have two questions for the Minister about an apparent contradiction in our debates last Wednesday. I pored over Hansard, and I found that he said:
“If the UK makes a sovereign decision to mirror EU provisions, the Bill provides the mechanism and flexibility, on a case-by-case basis, to do so. This would avoid primary legislation each time technical changes are needed and would increase the certainty that businesses are crying out for”.—[Official Report, 20/11/24; col. GC 74.]
However, he went on to say:
“The powers in the Bill do not allow regulations to make automatic or ambulatory references to changing EU law. I reassure noble Lords that the Government will return to Parliament to make any changes to references to EU law within our regulations”.—[Official Report, 20/11/24; cols. GC 74-5.]
On careful reading, these statements seem a bit contradictory. So, although I am totally willing to be persuaded otherwise, perhaps the Minister could write to explain to the Committee exactly what is proposed and what was meant. If I am being particularly thick, I would be very happy for him to explain why.
The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, who spoke to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox.
From listening to the debate, I suggest that the defects identified are not so much in this Bill or other legislative provisions that we have in place but more, as my noble friend suggested, in the energy with which the previous Government used the provisions at hand., I shall first explain why this is covered in existing legislation, and then I will come on to the energy, if you like, with which this Government will approach these important matters. I shall also set out the distinction between the regulation of chemical substances under REACH and other regulations, and the regulation of consumer products that contain chemicals.
The UK has a comprehensive regulatory framework for the use of chemicals. The REACH—registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals—regulation controls the manufacture, import, supply and safe use of chemical substances. The CLP—classification, labelling and packaging—regulation requires companies to classify, label and package their hazardous chemicals before placing them on the market. The REACH model operates in both the UK and the EU, but the systems have been independent since UK REACH entered into force on 31 December 2020, after we left the EU, and the EU REACH regulation was brought into UK law. So the regulation of chemicals must be managed separately under UK REACH and EU REACH.
REACH ensures a high level of protection for human health and the environment from risks imposed by chemicals. This includes minimising harm to workers who may handle chemicals during manufacturing processes, as well as minimising health impacts on our population and environmental damage from chemical substances. Chemical safety is governed by several interacting regimes. For example, certain products regulated by sector-specific regulations, such as cosmetics or toys, may contain chemicals that are also regulated by REACH and CLP. One of the aims when applying these regimes is to avoid putting in place overlapping or conflicting duties, which is the issue that we would have with the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. That amendment risks having overlapping or conflicting duties.
I know that the noble Baroness mentioned Defra, but the Secretary of State for Defra already has powers to amend UK REACH through the Environment Act 2021 and through REACH itself, which sets out a bespoke regime for imposing restrictions and other regulatory controls on chemical substances. The primary statutory purpose of UK REACH is to ensure a high level of protection for human health and the environment from substances that contain chemicals. In some cases, animal studies may be necessary to understand these human health or environmental hazards but, of course, I very much take on board the noble Lord’s point about animal testing, and I know of no plans to change the rules laid down by previous Ministers on that.
The Bill, as we know, relates to consumer products, and the definition of “product” stated in the Bill means that many of the substances regulated under REACH, and the ways they are used, are out of scope of the powers, regardless of these amendments. It should also be noted that the provision in Clause 1(2) is limited to the mitigation of the environmental impact of products. This limitation is reinforced in Amendment 51. As I have already commented, changes to REACH may be prompted by human health and safety, rather than environmental, considerations. The UK REACH work programme, published annually, sets out the work that has been done under UK REACH.
The fact is that the amendment would not provide the Secretary of State with the powers sought by the noble Baroness. We think the powers within UK REACH enable human health and environmental concerns to be considered alongside each other, where necessary. Existing sector regulations, such as those for cosmetics and toys, already include powers for the Secretary of State to regulate the use of chemicals in specific products beyond the overarching restrictions that can be applied under UK REACH. These powers can be, and already have been, used to make provision by regulation in UK law that corresponds, or is similar to, provision in relevant EU law. Such changes to UK regulations have been informed by independent expert scientific advice provided to the Office for Product Safety and Standards by the scientific advisory group on chemical safety for non-food and non-medicinal consumer products.
We have used these powers to make regulatory changes based on advice from that advisory group, following the EU’s introduction of new or amended prohibitions on the chemicals used in cosmetics and toys. My understanding is that, in some circumstances, the Government implemented scientific advice that was different from advice received by the EU. I am sure that the previous Government would have said that this demonstrated regulatory sovereignty to choose what products can be placed on the GB market and also demonstrated our status as a global leader in product regulation, supporting businesses and protecting consumers.
Powers in the Bill, alongside existing sector regulations, will ensure that we are able to regulate the use of chemicals in consumer products, including cosmetics and toys, as well as other consumer products with similar chemical exposure risk, so we will be able to continue to protect consumers from product-related harm. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked whether chemicals blocked in Britain but permitted in the EU would be available for use in this country. If we decided to ban chemicals that the EU continued to permit, those chemicals would not be permitted to be used for the GB market, because we have sovereignty.
I will confirm the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, on animal testing. The ban on using animals to test cosmetic products or ingredients has been in place, as he said, since 1998. We do not wish to revise the ban and do not wish to risk any unintended consequences that might result from bringing REACH within scope of the Bill.
On my noble friend Lord Browne’s point on the pace of reform, at the moment the Government are pursuing a programme of work on a wide range of hazardous substances to gather evidence of risk and exposure pathways. Publishing the work programme 2024-25 late in the financial year has not prevented the continuing development of ongoing streams. Obviously, the UK work programme 2024-25 was prepared under the previous Government. Once approved by Ministers, it will be published on the Health and Safety Executive’s website. But let me say that I understand the essential point that has been raised. My point is that there is nothing wrong with the legislative framework. The point of contention is the vigour with which any Government use their sovereign powers in the way that noble Lords want.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
If I have understood my noble friend’s response to this debate, do the Government accept the NAO and Public Accounts Committee’s assessment that UK REACH lacked capacity to do its job? If so, has Defra allocated sufficient funding to bring it up at least to the productivity of EU REACH in the quantity of assessments, recommendations and decisions that it makes? The statistics show that it is not doing anything much in this space.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, the quick answer is that these matters are being considered by Ministers at the moment, but I will feed back to them what noble Lords have raised today.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I would be glad to give way to the noble Baroness, but as we will come back to her in any case—
Baroness Brinton (LD)
I have a question. I am very grateful for the Minister’s response, but he has not yet responded to my final question and, following his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I need to repeat it to check. I said that this was a probing amendment to clarify the interconnected nature of, and differences between, the UK and EU chemicals industries. Under its current wording, Clause 1(1) says:
“The Secretary of State may … make provision, in relation to”.
Could that be used to amend and update UK REACH to align with EU REACH? I ask this in light of the letter that the noble Lord, Lord Leong, wrote to colleagues on 17 October:
“Though the Bill is not intended to cover REACH specifically, chemicals have not been excluded from its scope … We are currently considering the best approach to chemicals regulation in the UK and will set out priorities”.
That is the fundamental bit of this amendment. We can debate EU REACH and UK REACH, but it is about the influence on this Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, the quick response is that we do not envisage it being used in that way because we already have separate legislation to deal with that. I will follow up with a more detailed response, but I do not believe that the provisions would allow that to happen. However, I will double-check and clarify that.
On my noble friend’s point, I have listened to the debate and understand the concerns. I know that Ministers are considering this, and I will ensure that the strong points raised here are put to them as they consider how to take forward this work.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the short debate on this group. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for covering the 10 restrictions adopted in the EU but not in the UK, since it left the EU. I was debating whether to raise them or not; I am glad that I left them to him. He pointed out the cost-benefits of using REACH. Manufacturers have made it very clear that they want things as simple as possible and, usually, would prefer one form of REACH—the one to which they are likely to export or from which they will have products coming in. I recognise that other Members of the Committee will disagree with that. I am grateful for the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor; lemon and lavender sound like a lovely, simple way of looking at it, but cosmetics are much more complicated. We need to be very careful about that. I look forward to hearing from the Minister but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment will enable discussion of what information might usefully be marked on the product, such that the liability for regulations and charges can be clearly established.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 20 and speak to the others in this group. Each of these amendments has a role, I hope, in improving or at least elucidating the provisions of the Bill, but they are also put together from the point of view of “Let’s collect the tax”.
This Government have not been shy of hurting people in pursuit of a few hundred million pounds in tax per year. They have threatened the basis of family farms, chucked children out of school in the middle of their exam years and frozen old age pensioners. Why, then, are they leaving a billion pounds a year lying on the floor, uncollected, from scamming Chinese and other—Asian, by and large—traders? It is quite extraordinary. It not only fails to collect the tax but damages the British businesses that would be doing the business if we were not giving a 20% price advantage to the likes of Shein and Temu. Now we see that Amazon has to follow them down this track because it has been so damaged by Shein and Temu that it has to go into the same business. This is economically illiterate and ridiculous.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Leong, for arranging a meeting to discuss this. He very kindly invited a Treasury official along. I have had a reply now from the Treasury saying basically, “Don’t ring us, we’ll ring you”. I find this extraordinary, but I do not particularly blame this Government. The last Government was just as bad on it. However, it is extraordinary not to collect tax when the Government are going to such lengths to collect additional tax now.
I will add one more thing: for goodness’ sake, make the marketplaces liable for VAT. Stop trying to make the individual traders liable for VAT. They are here today, gone tomorrow, registering 500 new companies with Companies House, with lots of new VAT numbers. As soon as you put your finger on them, they are gone. Make the marketplaces collect VAT. It would be simpler and easier for them and for us, and much more effective.
Amendment 20 asks that we get a sensible amount of information on the origin, the identity of the local representative, the value and the beneficial ownership of the goods, so that everybody involved can see where the liability for product regulation sits, where the liability for any charges can sit and how things can be enforced. The more difficult you make it to track down who should be collared, the less it will happen. In these regulations, we must make it easier to chase people.
Amendment 24 basically says, “Make sure the representative who is appointed has the financial strength to stand behind what’s going on”. If the Minister cares to browse Amazon when he has the time and looks for, say, a three-terabyte drive—the sort of thing I shall need to pack up my 30 years in this place and carry it away with me—he will find that there are some very reputable products on the market for around a hundred quid. That is astonishing. I remember buying my first serious computer, which had 20 megabytes of hard drive, and thinking that was extraordinary. So—three terabytes for a hundred quid from a good manufacturer.
However, there are also products on the market for fifty quid from weirdly named companies. The game being played there is that the products do not contain three terabytes. They probably contain only 256 megabytes. But it does not show on the outside and by the time that anyone gets around to complaining and putting bad reviews in place, the company has changed; it has gone; it is someone else and there is no one to pursue. With a product such as a hard drive, it takes a while for someone to realise that it has been mis-sold. If you are going to pursue these people properly, you need to know that you can go after them for several months of turnover and succeed, which means that the representatives in the UK have got to be good for the money. Otherwise, you just do not have effective product regulation.
Amendment 25 also relates to “Let’s collect the tax”, since we are creating these structures to look after product quality, which could quite easily be used to help collect tax. Amendment 26 says, “Look, we’ve got a trading standards system that is really short of money, so let’s make it easier for us to extract money from the process we are creating in the Bill and feed it through to trading standards so that we get an effective and efficient system of enforcement”. I beg to move.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his proposed amendments to Clause 2, which, as highlighted by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, has been recommended for removal due to the broad and vague nature of the powers it grants. The liability for regulations and charges related to products is a matter of extreme importance. Without clear guidelines and transparent information, businesses could face significant uncertainty, which in turn undermines their ability to comply effectively.
The Government’s focus on clarity in other areas will ring hollow if they fail to address the critical need for clarity in liabilities—an issue that the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, seek to address directly. Regarding Amendment 20, by ensuring that products are marked with clear and comprehensive information, such as origin, local representation and ownership, we can establish clear responsibility for product compliance. This would not only improve regulatory transparency but foster trust with consumers and businesses alike.
I urge the Government to take this opportunity to acknowledge the importance of clear liability and responsibility frameworks. Although these amendments are to Clause 2, and we continue to discuss its broader issues, nevertheless the noble Lord’s proposed changes are a necessary step towards ensuring both accountability and transparency in product regulations.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Sharpe, for their comments in this interesting debate. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, was able to meet my noble friend and officials. I am sure they have taken note of his concerns, although he obviously has some reservations about that. I have also noted the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, about the shape of the Bill, which we have already well debated and no doubt will continue to do so.
Despite the noble Lords’ concerns about the Bill, the fact is that we are trying to produce a workable yet robust framework for regulating product safety in what I think we all acknowledge is a rapidly changing and evolving marketplace. We want to ensure that businesses, whether operating through traditional channels or online marketplaces, are held accountable for the safety of the products they distribute. The Bill’s approach is targeted, addressing the need for traceability and enforcement while avoiding excessive regulatory burdens that could stifle innovation and growth. I believe most noble Lords think that is the right balance, although some are somewhat critical of the way in which we have sought to do it in the Bill.
Amendments 20 and 24 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, propose to allow regulations to make requirements in relation to the marking of products, including their origin, the identity of the local representative, their value and their beneficial ownership, while also allowing regulations to require authorised representatives to accept liability and demonstrate financial strength. The amendments reflect important concerns, particularly around traceability and accountability, especially in the context of online marketplaces: for example, where a product creates a consumer safety concern, or the circumstances which the noble Lord mentioned in his introductory speech. Our view is that Clause 2(2)(e)(ii) and Clause 2(3) already provide the necessary mechanisms to ensure that authorised representatives and other relevant parties carrying out activities in relation to a product can clearly be identified for product safety purposes.
While I can see where the noble Lord is coming from with the proposed additional requirements, such as marking the product’s value or beneficial ownership, they would create an additional administrative burden for businesses without providing significant additional benefits for consumers or enforcement. The Bill as drafted aims to ensure that sufficient information is available for product safety and enforcement and we are not convinced that the extra information would offer clear advantages in those areas.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful for the Minister’s comprehensive reply. On Amendment 24, I remain unclear whether the powers in the Bill allow for representatives to have to demonstrate deep pockets. I would be happy to be written to if the Minister cannot reply now. If he could point me in the direction of homework related to Amendment 25, such as the OBR analysis and so on, I would be most grateful.
Lord Lucas
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is to ensure that people are aware that they are often buying from China when buying on Amazon/eBay and the product hasn’t undergone any quality checks.
Lord Lucas (Con)
I will also speak to Amendment 22. Amendment 21 is fairly self-explanatory. It asks that people be made aware of where the goods they are buying come from and, therefore, what confidence they can place in their quality. Secondly, it explores whether we might place liability on marketplaces for the quality of the products they allow to be listed there, which is clearly not the case at the moment.
My view is that Amazon makes a great deal of money out of selling what are, essentially, counterfeit products. This is not a satisfactory state of affairs. Amazon is quite well enough off to do a bit of investigation, which does not take long with these products, to make sure that they are what they say they are. This would result in greater stability and higher quality of companies doing business through Amazon. I do not think it would lose Amazon any business, but I am prepared to be shocked to find that the Government disagree with me. For now, I beg to move.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, Amendment 45 in this group is in my name. I also support my noble friend Lord Foster’s Amendments 117 and 122.
I come back to an issue debated at some length on the first day of Committee. I am particularly pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, in his place because my amendment relates directly to his Amendment 33, which questions whether Clause 2(3)(h) should stand part of the Bill; my amendment also looks at paragraph (h). He spoke about it in the context of parliamentary scrutiny and consultation, but my focus is a different one: I am trying to look at how it will work in practice. During our debate last week, my noble friend Lord Fox said that
“the wording of Clause 2(3)(h) is ‘any other person carrying out activities’. All the other items refer to the activity of the sale and marketing of that product. This does not refer to it but any person carrying out activities unspecified”.—[Official Report, 20/11/24; col. GC 40.]
We are moving from products to people in this debate.
At Second Reading, I asked the Minister who is caught by this very wide, catch-all paragraph. In his letter of 17 October, in which he responded to issues that he did not have time to cover at Second Reading—I thank him for it—he said:
“These supply chain roles may be undertaken by individuals as well as by businesses. The Bill will enable the responsibilities of supply chain actors to be rationalised and modernised, including to reflect the development of new business models that were not anticipated by current legislation, such as online marketplaces”.
I read his reply carefully, but it did not answer my question. That is partly because “actors” could mean anybody; it does not necessarily mean somebody mentioned in one of the clause’s previous paragraphs. I remain concerned about that in the context of Clause 2(3), which identifies the
“persons on whom product regulations may impose product requirements”.
It appears that paragraph (h) can include absolutely anyone involved in selling a relevant product, without limitation. This matters because a private individual selling an item with a lithium-ion battery, for example, on eBay or Vinted may be an actor at the very end of a long supply chain, but that does not mean they are a professional in the business. The wording is important.
Where does the responsibility for satisfactory compliance lie? In our Second Reading debate, there was some discussion about online marketplace platforms having responsibility for ensuring compliance but, frankly, eBay and Vinted cannot check the detail of a regulated item—in the case I gave, a lithium-ion battery in a bicycle—or how it meets the regulations. Also, the individual at the end of the supply chain has no obvious way of finding out whether they are responsible for ensuring that the item they wish to sell meets the regulations. Of course, there is a future actor in all of this: the person who buys it.
Which?, in its very helpful briefing prior to Second Reading, pointed out that the Bill needs strengthening in a number of areas, including clearer definitions of key terms, so that existing and future online marketplaces cannot take advantage of gaps to avoid responsibility. Clause 2(3)(h) is one such area. Will the Minister help by making it clear who is covered? Can he also explain exactly how the online marketplaces can manage the extension of liabilities for defective products sold by individuals, which those online marketplaces have not seen themselves? Alternatively, if individuals selling items are covered by Clause 2(3)(h), how do those individuals become aware of their responsibilities under the Bill for ensuring that the goods they sell meet the requirements and are not defective? Frankly, eBay sending them an email saying, “You are entirely responsible” is not good enough for compliance. If this is not clarified, we have a gaping hole in the Bill.
Baroness Crawley (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 48, 71, 118, 119, 120, 121, 123 and 124 in this group, on the topic of online marketplaces, which are in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay.
Turning first to Amendment 48, I recall that, in the King’s Speech, the Government made a commitment to ensure that the responsibilities of those involved in the supply of products, such as online marketplaces, are clear. That commitment is to be welcomed, but the clarity and detail will be in the secondary regulations after the Bill is passed and not in the Bill itself. As set out in the explanatory statement, the proposed new clause in the amendment
“provides a non-exclusive list of duties that must be imposed upon online marketplaces by regulations made by the Secretary of State … to be made to Parliament within 3 months of Royal Assent regarding the exercise of the duties conferred by this section”.
These duties include an explicit provision to place a duty on online marketplaces to take the necessary measures to ensure the safety of products offered on their platforms and a commitment to publish any draft secondary legislation on how this duty and related provisions will work in practice in good time before the measures are due to come into force. Finally, there is a duty to consult with key stakeholders on the design of these regulations.
I make it clear to my noble friend the Minister that the duties in this amendment are about the transparent process by which the Government will ensure a safer online marketplace, rather than a long list of possible actions taken to bring this about. The Office for Product Safety and Standards, in its 2021 research, found that 81% of the products it found online failed safety tests. I am sure that the figure would probably be far higher if they were tested today. Which? tells us that around 23.4 million consumers in the UK make monthly transactions on these marketplaces, yet they are unwittingly putting themselves at risk because, at present, they do not have the same protections as they have come to expect when buying from traditional high-street retailers. This evidence should encourage us to reform online marketplace regulations as urgently as possible.
Amendment 71 allows for regulations to provide liability of online marketplaces for defective and unsafe products and to ensure redress for those harmed by these unsafe and defective products, including civil litigation. It is important that the law on product liability can be updated to take account of the responsibilities of online marketplaces and others in the supply chain, and to provide effective redress for consumers who suffer harm from these dangerous products. We know that online marketplaces have become a mainstream method for people to shop, particularly when they are looking for value for money in these difficult economic times. This amendment seeks to ensure that there is redress for those online shoppers if they buy unsafe or faulty goods.
From the briefing sent to us by the London Fire Brigade we know that e-bikes and e-scooters are one of the capital’s fastest-growing fire risks. On average, there was a fire every two days in 2023. Sadly, deaths and injuries have resulted. Many of these fires are caused by incompatible chargers and faulty products that are purchased online. The London Fire Brigade believes, as many of us do, that product innovation has gone far ahead of proper safety standards and that there is inadequate regulation, especially for conversion kits, batteries and chargers. A strengthened version of the Bill would go a long way to answering these safety gaps online.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, I support the probing Amendment 45 from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, as she referenced my earlier Amendment 33. She expressed in a more erudite and articulate way what I should have said last week on Amendment 33. However, I think we have both alighted on the fundamental problem in that subsection, which is that despite its opacity and the fact that it is drawn very widely, it does not achieve what we all hope it will achieve—in other words, to point out the obligations on buyers and sellers. The noble Baroness quite rightly pointed out the lacuna inherent in that.
My very brief question to the Minister is whether it might be possible—this is not a criticism but merely an observation in respect of the drafting—for this subsection to be redrafted before Report so that that confusion that we see now, which could potentially give rise to substantial amounts of litigation, is ameliorated and we could have tighter wording to address some of the issues that the noble Baroness and I have pointed out.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
My Lords, so many of our deliberations in our various sittings have been seeking to put some flesh on to the skeleton nature of the Bill before us; I have done that on a number of occasions, as have many other noble Lords. For instance, in our last-but-one grouping, I proposed that we seek to use the Bill to address concerns about data scraping for the development of new AI products. I gently point out to the Minister that he told me that this would be covered by the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I have double-checked Hansard and can tell him that at the end of the debate on that Bill, when this was raised with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, the Minister responsible, she replied that this issue was not covered by that Bill and that DCMS and DSIT Ministers are jointly working and looking forward to bringing forward proposals in due course. She ended by saying:
“We will announce more details in due course”.—[Official Report, 19/11/24; col. 197.]
So it is not covered, and this is a good opportunity to do it.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and other noble Lords who have spoken have pointed out, this is an area, in terms of online marketplaces, where there is an urgent need to put flesh on the bones and to have a clearer understanding of the definition of an online marketplace and of what regulations should apply to them. I have frequently raised in your Lordships’ House my concerns that consumers have far less protection from faulty products bought online than they have when they purchase them on the high street.
It simply cannot be right, as we have seen from all the evidence that we have all received from various organisations, such as the British Toy & Hobby Association, Which? and Electrical Safety First, as well as others, that so many unsafe products are available for sale online. In an earlier contribution, the noble Baroness referred to the fact that 86% of toys sold online do not comply with UK safety requirements. I have referred to the sad fact that many electrical appliances purchased online do not meet appropriate safety requirements and, sadly, have led to loss of life and damage of a great deal of property.
It certainly cannot be right that products that have been withdrawn by a manufacturer, often because of concerns about safety, can still be purchased online, and it certainly cannot be right that consumers have not only less protection but fewer opportunities for redress when purchasing products online compared to what they have when purchasing them on the high street. I support all the amendments addressing those concerns because collectively they would improve consumer protection by ensuring accountability by imposing a clear and enforceable duty on online marketplaces to ensure the safety of products sold on their platforms, especially those coming from third-party sellers overseas. Incidentally, I shall later propose an amendment that would strengthen the extraterritoriality covered by the Bill.
The amendments that we have before us further protect consumers by removing anonymity so that third-party sellers can no longer hide behind platforms to evade product safety regulations and by making it easier for them to seek any form of redress. It establishes direct liability on platforms for unsafe products sold throughout them, which leads to the opportunity for much greater fairness in terms of redress because, at the moment, consumers dealing with faulty high street products expect and receive a full refund or replacement, but when problems arise with online purchases, particularly from overseas sellers, consumers often seem to have no recourse. Amendments in this group deal with that issue. Finally, the amendments would clarify something that is lacking in the Bill at the moment: the issue of accountability. Who is actually accountable in the multinational marketplace structures that we have to deal with now?
Given that these platforms are evolving at an incredibly rapid rate, with people almost daily finding new ways to market their products, we need amendments that ensure that there is no room for manoeuvre to get around the regulations by online marketplaces now and, crucially, in future. We need a clearer definition of what we mean and what is covered by an online marketplace, and I welcome and support the amendments in the group that do just that.
I add one additional point. In Clause 10, the definition of an online marketplace includes,
“any other platform by means of which information is made available over the internet”.
Clause 10 does not define “the internet”, despite quite a point being made of doing so in other legislation. Indeed, other pieces of legislation prefer the phrase “internet service”, not just “internet”. To avoid further ambiguity, I have proposed in Amendments 117 and 122 that the Bill uses “internet service” instead of “internet” and that the definition of “internet service” is exactly as set out in the Online Safety Act 2023.
Given, for instance, that the Tobacco and Vapes Bill has this definition simply copied and pasted into it, I see no reason why this Bill could not do the same. Failing to do so would unhelpfully leave the definition to common law. We should be aiming to ensure that levels of protection and redress are as powerful online as they are on the high street. Amendments in this group will achieve this and will also ensure that we have a future-proofed definition of “online marketplace” and that clear duties and responsibility towards consumer protection are imposed on all relevant bodies. On these Benches, we certainly support them.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for introducing their amendments in this group. I shall briefly speak in favour of Amendments 48 and 71. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, for bringing attention to the critical issue that addresses the responsibilities of online marketplaces and also, if I may, pay tribute to her wider work in this area as well as that of my noble friend Lord Lindsay, who is not in this place but whose exemplary work as president of the Chartered Trading Standards Institute deserves a mention.
This sector has grown exponentially in recent years and plays a dominant role in modern commerce. This amendment, therefore, highlights essential duties for online marketplaces. For example, a 2023 TSB study found that Facebook Marketplace accounted for 73% of purchase fraud cases. If you think about fraud and its growth in terms of the British crime statistics, that is a significant percentage of British crime, not just online crime. Over one-third of adverts on Facebook Marketplace are scams, we are told, so this amendment would help to level the playing field by ensuring that online marketplaces meet the same safety standards as physical retailers. This would foster fair competition and ensure that businesses prioritising consumer safety are not undermined by unscrupulous practices.
It is vital that we ensure online marketplaces, which facilitate the sale of billions of products, do not become conduits for unsafe goods or fraudulent activity, as all noble Lords have rightly highlighted. Without robust regulations, consumer trust and market integrity are at significant risk. We ask noble Lords to take seriously this amendment to uphold consumer protection, market fairness and safety standards, and think that the Government ought to recognise the urgency of addressing these concerns and act decisively.
On Amendment 71, I support it as a necessary step to protect consumers in the rapidly growing online marketplace sector. The extension of liability to online marketplaces and others under Section 2(3) ensures that those who facilitate the sale of unsafe or defective products are held responsible. Such measures are crucial to maintaining consumer confidence, especially as online shopping becomes so dominant.
We think it is essential that the Government protect consumer rights in all the marketplaces, especially online. We urge the Government to listen to those two amendments in particular but, frankly, there is merit in all the amendments we are debating in this group, and I hope to hear some positive news from the Minister.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, before I respond to this group, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, that I will write to him in respect of the points he has raised.
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and for Amendments 21, 22, 32, 45, 48, 71 and 117 to 124. These amendments have raised important points on the scope and application of the Bill’s powers, and I hope to provide clarity and reassurance. Around one-third of UK retail sales are now conducted online, but our product safety legislation has not kept pace with changes in shopping habits, in particular the development of online marketplaces and other platforms.
Online platforms may sell goods themselves and/or provide a platform for third-party sellers—in the UK or aboard—including consumers, to sell goods. The most well-known online marketplaces in the UK are probably Amazon, eBay, ASOS and Etsy, and others are widely used. The online marketplace industry in the UK is booming. In 2023, the UK e-commence market was valued at close to £137 billion and is projected to grow to £152 billion this year. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, for setting out the landscape of online fraud and scams on online marketplaces; we really need to take note of that.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
I thank the Minister very much for the detail he has gone into in his answer, but there are two types of regulation. The one he has described is the one that you would expect the Government, trading standards and other bodies to take. But, in litigation terms, if somebody bought an electric bike in good faith, who would they sue? Paragraph (h) does not make it clear. This is not purely about the parameters of the products and the Bill; it is about the consequences of having something that is very general. I think platforms will say, “It’s nothing to do with us”, and the individuals will say, “But I’m not part of the chain, as described”. I am genuinely struggling to understand and I wonder whether the Minister can help me.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for that; I will come to it. We are talking about product liability to some extent; I have a paragraph on it in my brief, if she will bear with me for a moment.
Amendments 32 and 45 highlight some of the different actors in online supply chains that may need to be captured appropriately in these new requirements. The Bill gives powers to introduce requirements on online marketplaces to improve the safety of products sold online. These requirements can be tailored and updated appropriately to reflect the wide range of online marketplace models, and other relevant supply chain actors and their activities, now and in the future. Clause 2(3) is therefore sufficiently broad to enable requirements to be introduced on any persons carrying out activities in relation to a product. This could include, where appropriate, private individuals selling products via online marketplaces, whether in return for payment or free of charge.
I will now focus on Amendments 117 to 124, which seek to broaden the definition of online marketplaces. The definition of online marketplaces in the Bill has been created in a way that is broad enough to capture the full range of online marketplace business models, including social media platforms such as TikTok Shop, which was mentioned earlier. I assure the Committee that all the changes proposed in the amendments are captured within the existing definition. For example—and of relevance to Amendment 123—the expansion of the term “marketing” within the definition of an online marketplace is not required due to the definition of “marketing” within the Bill, meaning the “making available” of products. This in turn is defined as goods
“supplied or advertised for distribution or use on the market, whether in return for payment or free of charge”.
Amendments 117 and 122 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster, seek to change the definition of an online marketplace, replacing “internet” with “internet service”, as defined in the Online Safety Act 2023. The definition we have used in the Bill includes a service on any other platform by means of which information is made available over the internet. We are therefore confident that the issue the noble Lord raises in his amendments is covered by the Bill as drafted.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for his clarification about data and GDPR being captured by the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I shall read Hansard and confirm accordingly. I totally agree with him that all unsafe products should never be allowed to be offered for sale on any online marketplaces, whether original or second-hand. We have to address his point about accountability. Who is accountable to be held responsible for some of these unsafe products?
The Bill also includes a power in Clause 10(2) that allows for the definition to be amended later by regulations, if this were necessary to capture any future models not captured by the current definition. I will come back to the issue of product liability.
Amendment 71, tabled by my noble friend Lady Crawley and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, would allow the Secretary of State to make provisions to ensure that online marketplaces can be held liable for products purchased via their platforms. The primary route to seek damages for harm caused by defective products is through the Consumer Protection Act 1987. Depending on the specific facts, an online marketplace may have responsibility under this legislation. The Government are currently reviewing this legislation and we will consider the UK’s product liability regime holistically, including the question of how it should apply to online marketplaces. This is not a change that we would seek to make without considering all the evidence, so we do not want to pre-empt this important work by adding to the scope of the Bill.
Product liability also covers products that extend beyond the scope of the Bill, including, for example, food and medical devices. A considered review of this area would be the most appropriate way to ensure that our product liability laws are up to date and fit for the future and to take account of the broad-ranging interests in this body of law. I will keep the Grand Committee updated on the Government’s progress with this review and plans for wider engagement.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and other noble Lords: we have listened to the debate and reflected on all the points made. We are aware of the Grand Committee’s strength of feeling on a number of points, including the scrutiny of secondary legislation. With that, I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords that these amendments are therefore not required to achieve their laudable aims. Consequently, I would ask for the amendments in this group not to be pressed.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
Clause 1(5) says that
“‘marketing’ means making available on the market”,
which is a much shorter definition than the one that the Minister just read out at the Dispatch Box. Is he telling me that I am not correct in saying that I market a product on eBay when I put it up on eBay?
Baroness Brinton (LD)
This is very important, because this is partly about liability and partly about the clarity in the Bill about who has responsibility. Whether it is a buyer or, as I think the Minister argued, an individual seller, someone has to tell them that they have to follow the regulations, and they need to know how to do that. When he read out the definition of marketing in his speech, he gave a whole sentence more than is included in the definition in the Bill, which very simply says,
“‘marketing’ means making available on the market”.
It goes on to discuss “related terms”, but they are not relevant to my problem. While he ponders between Committee and Report, can he look at that? More than one of us is likely to come back with amendments on Report on this issue.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness. We are trying not to be too prescriptive because it is constantly changing. I am sorry about this, but the Bill defines “marketing” as
“making available on the market”.
Clause 10, line 8, states,
“a product or goods … supplied or advertised for distribution or use on the market”—
Baroness Brinton (LD)
That is exactly what happens with a private individual. They will advertise an item on eBay. The language the Minister is using is what I would describe as the old-style manufacturing and business model. It does not take into account all the comments that people have made about where online marketing is in the 21st century. Therein lies the problem, and I would be very grateful if the noble Lord would look at that.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for that as well. Online marketplaces are changing overnight. I have just learned over the weekend of dropshipping. Dropshipping means that if someone orders a product on eBay, the person supplying it is not eBay or whoever claims to be on eBay. It is dropshipped by AliExpress straight to that buyer’s home. How are we going to control that? How are we going to capture that? That is why we cannot be too prescriptive. We need to have the flexibility to address ever-changing marketplaces. That is what this Bill is trying to do. If the noble Baroness is still unclear or unsure about this, perhaps we can have another follow-up meeting so we can discuss this in depth.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
I think a number of noble Lords who have participated in this debate might be interested in a meeting, if that is okay. I shall very briefly respond to the Minister to say that flexibility is fine, until the point at which there is nobody to hold accountable. That is the problem.
Lord Leong (Lab)
The Bill is drafted in this way to address who is going to be accountable. My invitation to all noble Lords to a meeting stands, and I welcome each and every one of them. I hope this amendment can be withdrawn.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful for the long and detailed reply given by the noble Lord, Lord Leong. I recommend a meeting with him to anybody. He is a most welcoming and courteous Minister, and you get good results out of a meeting with him. If, on rereading what he has said, I have any further questions, I shall attend the meeting. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, this might be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee.
House of Lords
Oaths and Affirmations
Domestic Solar Panels
(2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Russell
To ask His Majesty’s Government how they plan to increase the number of homes fitted with solar panels.
The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)
My Lords, rooftop solar on homes and buildings will play an important role in the drive for clean power. Details about how the Government will increase deployments of domestic solar panels will be set out in the forthcoming solar road map.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, Labour promised a rooftop solar revolution, which I welcome, tripling solar power by 2030. It now appears that this commitment has not survived contact with the housebuilding industry. Are this Government still requiring that, as part of the future homes standards, all new homes will have to have solar panels installed, as promised? If not, why? Further, France is maintaining solar panel installations on all parking lots greater than 80 spaces, generating power for 8 million homes. What consideration has been given to doing the same here?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, we are not moving away at all from the idea of a solar revolution. The noble Earl will know that, in its scenarios for 2030, the National Energy System Operator—NESO—reckons that we will need 47 gigawatts by that time. We are committed to publishing a clean power action plan, which will embrace solar plans, very soon. The Solar Taskforce is there to provide clear advice and actions on how we will take that forward. What the noble Earl said about French car parks was interesting. There has been an easing up of development rights in this country in relation to that. On the 1.5 million homes that we pledged to build in the lifetime of this Parliament, we are in close discussion with our colleagues across government about mandation, and we very much take his point on that.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I was indebted to the Minister for his courteous reply to us at the end of the Second Reading debate a week ago. He will recall that I raised with him specifically the use of Uighur slave labour in the manufacture of solar panels in Xinjiang, and the use of 25,000 children in child labour in the DRC in lithium production, which is essential to our green technology. The Minister was unable to answer some of the questions I put to him during that debate. Will he undertake for his officials to write and give replies, so that we can consider them before Committee? Will he place a copy of the replies in the Library of your Lordships’ House?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I think the Lord will recollect that he asked me rather a lot of questions and, given that my winding-up speech was 20 minutes, with the best will in the world, I said that I would write to him. On the general principle, he knows that I have long shared his concern, particularly about Xinjiang province and the appalling use of the Uighurs. We understand those issues and are committed to tackling them. We have given guidance on the risk to business of trading in Xinjiang province, and we have pointed out the penalties for those who fail to report under the Modern Slavery Act. The noble Lord will find an invitation to meet in the next two days to discuss those issues.
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)
My Lords, further to that point, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the keys to tackling this issue, especially in terms of exploitation in other countries, is to ensure that solar panels are built in this country and that our industrial strategy matches up with the energy strategy and Great British Energy to make that happen? Can he assure us that he is focused on that?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, that is a very interesting point put forward by my noble friend. One of the responsibilities of the Solar Taskforce is to look at the supply chain, and we will pick up the issue that she mentioned. It is also worth pointing out that if we look at where the content comes from in relation to placing solar panels on a roof, it is reckoned that 60% of the value of the work—including scaffolding and whatever else has to happen—is bought in this country.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, would it not be a great help if the owners of listed buildings could find it easier to obtain planning consent for solar panels? I also declare an interest in that members of my family have listed buildings.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
One of the main benefits of solar is that, in general, planning consent is not required. However, in conservation areas, there are many more constraints. I cannot give the noble Viscount a commitment, but I will make sure that the relevant department is made aware of his views.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I now call the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, to make a virtual contribution.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
With the price of panels a key consideration in housing costs, and with 75% of the world’s production in China, why can the Government not sponsor a taskforce of engineers and chemists et al with the task of designing and establishing a polysilicon manufacturing plant facility for use in wider solar panel production? The site could be located under a regime of regional development with climate incentives. Polysilicon stands at the heart of competitive solar panel production internationally. That is why the Chinese lead, and why we should be investing now.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I am very grateful to my noble friend for that very helpful suggestion. I will make sure the taskforce gives it earnest consideration.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, as the Government’s Great British Energy Bill enters Committee in the coming weeks, can the Minister confirm whether this will include the deployment of solar panels as part of its strategy? Given that I have the Minister’s attention, and following on from the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, I draw his attention to GB-Sol, a spin-out from Cardiff University, which manufactures Welsh slate-looking tiles, which are suitable for both listed and heritage buildings.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
That is a very interesting point. It is worth making the point also that a number of British companies are assembling some of the solar panels imported from China. I agree that we need to look at all these areas.
In relation to the GB Energy Bill, the noble Baroness will know it is not our intent to place in the Bill the exact amount of energy generation we require from each source. That will be a matter for the GBE board in light of the Government’s overall priority-setting towards clean power and net zero.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, I have had solar panels on my roof for many years. There is a local town in Devon near Exeter—Cranbrook—which is growing vastly and does not have a single solar panel on any of the buildings, and there are thousands of houses and other buildings. Can the Minister make sure that cannot happen again?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I am intrigued, my Lords, to learn as to why there should be a desert in a particular part of the noble and learned Baroness’s county. Certainly, if she would like to send me more details, I will have a look at it.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, the Government have pushed for solar panels on roofs, but they have not got a strategy on batteries associated with those panels—it seems to be left up to the individuals. Can the Government say whether they are going to bring forward a storage strategy linked to solar panels?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, storage is of course important. If you apply to have a solar panel, you are usually asked whether you wish to opt for battery or not. This is part of the work that the Solar Taskforce will take forward.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, the Government clearly believe it to be of great strategic national interest to get so many solar panels built in a very space of time. As for heat pumps, a tiny fraction of heat pumps were actually built in this country—that was the last Government’s obsession. This Government want to massively expand the use of solar panels. How is the Minister going to ensure that, between now and 2030, the majority of solar panels will be built in this country? How will he also ensure that they are not filled with Chinese chips?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, of course, I cannot guarantee that the majority of solar panels between now and 2030 are going to be built in this country. What I can assure noble Lords is that, as part of the work we are taking forward, we will look at the UK supply chain. However, the essential point here is that we must strive towards clean power. I do not discount the positive impact of heat pumps. The Government, in their warm homes plan, are as committed to heat pumps as they are to solar.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, one of the best ways of increasing solar panels on the roof is to incentivise people to put excess capacity over their own usage requirements. What assessment have the Government made of peer-to-peer trading arrangements, which would allow people to sell their excess to their neighbours at a price higher than the smart export guarantee but lower than the retail price? I hope the noble Lord will agree that would be a win-win situation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
The noble Lord has raised this with me, and I think mentioned it at Second Reading of the GBE Bill, so we are giving it consideration. Of course, one should say that in terms of the incentives for people to invest in solar panels, we already have the smart export guarantee, which is a payment for excess electricity generated. However, as part of the warm homes plan, we are looking at the role of incentives and the use of private finance to find a way to help people with the upfront cost, which—even though solar is cheaper than other renewable energies—is always one of the main problems in relation to people being able to invest in their own solar panels.
Cladding Remediation
(2 months ago)
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Lord Young of Cookham
To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on remediating flats with dangerous cladding.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Baroness Taylor of Stevenage) (Lab)
My Lords, I wish the noble Lord better—I know he is not feeling so great today. The pace of remediation has been far too slow, with only 50% of identified buildings beginning or completing works, and just 29% fully remediated. This has caused untold distress and expense for all those concerned. Further strong measures will be detailed in the forthcoming remediation acceleration plan. As set out by the Prime Minister, we are willing to legally require those responsible to assess their buildings and promptly enter remediation schemes. We will bring the full power of government to bear on this task.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. In the debate on Grenfell on Friday, the Minister’s colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Khan, said:
“Yesterday the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government published its monthly remediation statistics. They show that, of the 4,834 residential buildings 11 metres and over in height with unsafe cladding that the department is monitoring … 50% … have still not started remediation”.—[Official Report, 22/11/24; col. 431.]
That is 250,000 families living in buildings that are not safe, in flats which they cannot sell, and who are confronted with high insurance premiums and service charges; and some of them are also confronted with unlimited remediation costs.
None of these leaseholders are responsible in any way for the difficulties they find themselves in. The NAO has now said that it may take until 2037—20 years after the Grenfell fire—for all the dangerous cladding to be put right, and we still have not identified all the dangerous buildings. I appreciate that the Minister has come to this relatively recently, but does she accept that if we do not get a grip on it, it will be the next major national scandal?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I am very glad to say that we now have a Government, and a Deputy Prime Minister who is responsible for this area, who take this incredibly seriously. We will soon be publishing a remediation acceleration plan, which outlines the specific measures we are going to take to increase the pace of remediation, to find all the at-risk buildings quicker and to ensure that the residents at the heart of this terrible issue are supported in the process. There is no longer any excuse for those responsible failing to fix dangerous cladding on their buildings. The message is clear: use the routes we have created to get buildings fixed, and get on with the job.
The Deputy Prime Minister recently held a national roundtable with mayors, regulators and national building safety bodies to press home the urgency of this work, and most developers have now signed up now to the plan that she set out. But please be assured that we will not hesitate to use enforcement measures, and we have provided local authorities with funding to undertake the enforcement necessary.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)
My Lords, there are still limits to access to funding for social landlords, despite the welcome measures the Government have taken already on funding, meaning that those with the lowest incomes still have to pay for unsafe buildings to be fixed, when private developers profited from constructing them. Will my noble friend respond to End our Cladding Scandal’s call for housing associations to have the same access to the building safety fund and the cladding safety scheme as private building owners?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for the action she has taken already in this respect. The Government are committed to improving building safety, and to accelerating the remediation of unsafe social housing just as much as we are for those in private rented and private owned property. Investment in remediation will rise to record levels of over £1.5 billion across 2024-25 and 2025-26, and that includes new investment to speed up the remediation of social housing. The Government will set out further steps to accelerate remediation in the remediation acceleration plan. Social landlords have access to existing government grants, and the Government are committed to providing £400 million of grant funding to the social housing sector for the removal of unsafe cladding. With social housing, as with other types of housing, there is no excuse now for not getting on with this as quickly as possible.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, following on from the Question of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, this Labour Government have allocated only £1 billion of funding for the removal of the cladding, in contrast to the £5.1 billion allocated by the previous Government to fix the most dangerous cladding through the cladding safety scheme. Can the Minister explain how the Government came to the figure of £1 billion, and will she commit to comparable levels of support to those seen under the last Government?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, we have waited seven years for action to be taken on this. The remediation acceleration plan will set out the full details of how we intend to take this forward, and the funding that has been set aside. Of course, we would have wanted to put more into this, but with a £22 billion black hole, it has not been possible to do so.
Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)
The National Audit Office recently published a report showing that of the £16.6 billion total remediation cost, £6.5 billion would be met by developers, private owners and social housing providers. But what about the manufacturers of the cladding, who the inquiry found had been systematically dishonest and deliberately misled through the test data, so as to mislead the market about the safety of the cladding in question? Are they going to foot any part of the total bill?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a very important question. The Prime Minister stated on the day the inquiry’s report was published that we
“will write to all companies found by the inquiry to have been part of these horrific failings, as the first step to stopping them being awarded Government contracts”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/9/24; col. 312.]
Preliminary letters have been now written to all those organisations mentioned by name in the report, each of which bears a different level of responsibility for the failings that led to the Grenfell tragedy, including construction project manufacturers. We recognise the failings of the system for construction projects, and we announced our commitment to bring forward proposals for reform of the regulatory regime in a Written Ministerial Statement on 2 September.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, the very serious fire in a high-rise block of flats in Dagenham in August has resulted in the residents losing their homes and not even being able to access their belongings. They are also in real financial hardship. They are really grateful for the support from their local council, Barking and Dagenham, which has stopped them having to pay any council tax and provides weekly support meetings. Last Thursday, the owner of the building announced that it was to be demolished, without any discussion at all with the leaseholders and residents. The council cannot force the owner to the table, so I was very pleased to hear the Minister talk about enforcing remediation and working with people. Is there anything she can do to help these residents get the owner in front of them, so they can find out what is actually happening?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that issue, and to Barking and Dagenham Council, which acted very quickly to support the residents. A great deal of action is being taken on building owners who are not progressing remediation works, getting them to do so as quickly as possible. The enforcement action is strengthened by funding for local authorities, as I said earlier.
We all know that one of the great failings in the Grenfell situation was the failure to take residents’ voices seriously enough. We are clear that all projects should comply with the guidance in the code, and we will take action where needed if there is a failure to comply with the resident voice. The code is not currently legally binding; however, it does include references to legislation and has been developed in accordance with guidance and requirements. We will keep the status of that code under review, but there is redress for residents should they need to seek it.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
My Lords, guidance note 9980 is being used as an excuse by developers. It enables them to look at the safety of buildings with dangerous cladding on a holistic basis, so that they can claim that if the fire escapes are okay, they do not need to remediate. Can the Minister commit to having a look at that guidance note? I declare an interest as a part-owner of a building with cladding issues.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that point. I will have another look at it, but that guidance is very clear. They are industry-accepted standards, so they should be adhered to.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
Why do the Government not arrange for the blocks of flats that still have dangerous cladding to be fitted with equipment to prevent neutral current diversions causing a fire in the first place? The fear of fire has got to be a serious issue. Given that the most expensive three blocks of flats in London are fitted with such equipment, I do not see why it should not be fitted to all those flats where people are living in fear and still with dangerous cladding.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thank my noble friend, who has raised this point in previous debates. I hope he received a written response, but I will endeavour to seek another response for him on the specific point he makes today.
Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom
(2 months ago)
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Baroness D'Souza
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to review the status of the Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, the UK’s long-standing position on Taiwan has not changed. The UK does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan but does have a strong unofficial relationship based on deep and growing ties in a range of areas, underpinned by shared democratic values. The Taipei Representative Office works in the UK in the absence of those diplomatic relations. The UK does not have plans to review the status of the TRO but continues to work constructively with it in pursuit of our shared interests and within the parameters of our long-standing position.
Baroness D'Souza (CB)
I thank the Minister for her Answer, and I acknowledge that this is a difficult area. However, the London Taipei office is not invited to or included in any diplomatic events; does not receive protection from the police protection unit; is not exempt from council tax or business rates; cannot open a bank account with any British bank; and cannot secure meetings with Ministers or FCDO officials beyond director level, among many other restrictions. I wonder whether the Minister will say whether she feels that this is adequate support for a thriving but threatened democracy.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, whenever I am asked about my feelings on these issues, I know that it is probably wise to choose my words incredibly carefully. To reiterate: the Government do not have any plans to change the current long-standing position, but we have deep ties with Taiwan through various means, as do our Parliaments. Much as I hear and understand the noble Baroness’s concerns about the current situation, at present the Government do not plan to change it.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, are there any steps, short of full recognition, that would recognise that Taiwan/Taipei is a democracy with very warm relations with the United Kingdom?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We do recognise that. I know that several noble Lords in this Chamber have undertaken many meetings with and visits to Taiwan. This Parliament and representatives of Taiwan enjoy that connection and relationship. Long may that continue.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, unlike our trade with China, with which we have a trade deficit of £23.7 billion—which is a strategic vulnerability—the UK has a trade surplus of £1.1 billion with Taiwan. As discussed in our first Question today, it is a liberal democracy that respects modern slavery standards, labour law rules and intellectual property rights. Surely it is in our strategic interests to grow trade with Taiwan over trade with China. In the context of the previous visit to Europe by former President Tsai, can the Minister confirm that no FCDO official was in contact with the TRO to suggest that her visit be postponed?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to point out our good trading relationship with Taiwan. We do not see this as an either/or. We have a good trading relationship with both China and Taiwan. I can only reiterate the answers given about the visit in the other place and in this Chamber. The characterisation that has been given to this visit is not one that the FCDO recognises.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, considering the UK’s commitment to supporting democracies around the world, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the Minister, how are the Government leveraging their relationship with Taiwan to promote the shared values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law in the region?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We are very keen to promote our values of democracy and the rule of law in the region and elsewhere in the world. I would not say that we are particularly leveraging our relationship with Taiwan. I think it is more important to us than that, and we will promote these values throughout the world whenever we have the opportunity to do so.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. In May this year, the then United Kingdom Government published on their official website a joint statement signed by several international partners, including the British Office Taipei, reaffirming the joint support for Taiwan’s meaningful participation in the work of the World Health Organization and as an observer at the World Health Assembly. Does the Minister support this statement on behalf of the present Government? If so, will she use her good offices as a Foreign Office Minister to back the increasing momentum towards the establishment of a fully fledged UK embassy in Taiwan?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, we support Taiwan’s participation in multilateral bodies, particularly when statehood is not a prerequisite, such as at the World Health Assembly, and we have supported its participation as an observer in other ways, including at the WHO.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has just said about the World Health Organization. Is it not particularly reprehensible that China, the place of origin of Covid-19, should have blocked Taiwan from becoming a member of the World Health Organization? Given that we can do more, at the Human Rights Council, in the General Assembly and elsewhere, to influence these events, should we not be pointing out to others that those who fund the WHO feel some anger, having provided money to that wonderful organisation, that a country of 23 million people is excluded from its membership?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, we value the work of the WHO and the contribution that Taiwan has made through the World Health Assembly. We will continue to support its participation, because we believe that everyone who has something to contribute to this important organisation and its work should be supported in doing so.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, the Chinese say that, if necessary, they will surround and besiege the island of Taiwan in three hours. That is their estimate and they have positioned forces to do it. They will then be surrounding an island that produces about 39% of the world’s larger industrial chips and probably an even greater percentage of domestic microcircuits, which really create the modern world, so we would be in a very serious position. Can we work closely with the Taipei Representative Office here and all our Taiwanese friends to foresee and prepare for the problems with such a situation in various ways, including by developing our own microchip industries 10 times more vigorously?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble Lord is right to remind us of the precariousness of a situation arising such as he describes. It would be very dire indeed for the world economy. It would take around 10% of the world’s GDP, and no country, including China, would be immune to that impact.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, during the election campaign, the Labour Party talked about change. Does the Minister not think that change should take place in this area—in Taiwan and Somaliland? Somaliland had peaceful, democratic elections 10 days ago; is it not about time that the British Government, who owe these people something, supported their rights? Now is the time for that change.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I hear the noble Lord. There are many countries in the world that I wish we could change for a statement or a shift in position. But we need to tread carefully and respectfully, and work alongside allies, putting all the interests of the United Kingdom front and centre. That is the way this Government will proceed.
NHS: Dentistry Provision
(2 months ago)
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Lord Fuller
To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to tackle the issue of ‘dental deserts’, areas with no NHS provision for dentistry; what plans they have to establish new dental schools to meet demand, and on the basis of what criteria decisions about new dental schools will be made.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, 28% of the population of England needs but cannot access NHS dentistry. We want to ensure that everyone who needs a dentist can get one, including by providing 700,000 more urgent dental appointments and recruiting dentists to areas that need them. Government approval is not required to establish new dental schools; we encourage prospective providers to approach the General Dental Council, and we will work with partners to assess the best distribution of training places.
Lord Fuller (Con)
My Lords, I live in Norfolk which, alongside its neighbouring counties, is the only part of our nation not to have a school of dentistry. Even the Secretary of State says that our county is the “Sahara of dental deserts”. It is important: poor oral health is the principal cause of admission to hospital for children of primary school age, and incidences of mouth cancer are being missed locally. The last Government announced plans to recruit 1,000 more dentists a year and to build completely new schools of dentistry in which to train them alongside hygienists. Will these plans be taken forward by the new Government? Does the Minister agree with me that, where entirely new schools of dentistry are to be established, it makes much more sense to put them where we do not have very many dentists, rather than to have even more schools where we do have them? I hope she will say that the Government look favourably upon the proposals from the University of East Anglia to establish a brand-new school of dentistry and oral hygiene in Norwich.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I commend the noble Lord for raising his long experience of facing and dealing with these problems locally in Norfolk. I note the report in September that the Norfolk and Waveney area has the worst ratio of NHS dentists to patients in England, with 1,000-plus people having to attend Norfolk’s casualty department last year due to serious dental issues, so this is a serious point. We are aware of the University of East Anglia’s interest in this area, and my colleague Stephen Kinnock, the Minister responsible for this area, recently met with east of England MPs to discuss this matter. However, as I have said, it is not the Government who make these decisions, although we encourage those new dental schools to be in areas of particular need. I encourage the University of East Anglia to take its proposals to the General Dental Council.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, has any extra allocation been made in-year—this year—from the Budget’s NHS allocation for the extra appointments the Government wish to see in dentistry, or is this expected to be bought from existing ring-fenced dentistry budgets?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are investing around £3 billion in dentistry each year. As the noble Lord will be aware, I cannot yet confirm 2025-26 dentistry budgets, but they will be confirmed in planning guidance published by NHS England in due course. I know that the noble Lord will be aware that, despite the tough fiscal circumstances the Government have inherited, the Budget set out a big increase in day-to-day spending for health and social care. Regarding the process, and our planning, it is entirely normal that we set out matters in planning guidance. We are, of course, keen to reform the dental contract with a shift to focusing on prevention and the retention of NHS dentists. That work is immediately under way.
Lord Fowler (CB)
My Lords, no one fought harder for the elimination of dental deserts than Lord Colwyn, who died recently and whom most of us in this House remember. Would not the best memorial to Lord Colwyn be to place a new priority on dental services particularly for children? As well as making that a priority, and to show that it is, should we not allocate it a budget?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I would like to associate these Benches with the comments made by the noble Lord about the late Lord Colwyn, whose contribution was indeed considerable. I agree that that would be a very appropriate legacy to his memory. The fact is that we are in the position that the previous Government’s dentistry recovery plan did not go far enough and, as we all know, there are too many people struggling to find an NHS appointment. As part of our 10-year plan we are working to assess the need for more dental trainees in areas including the east of England, which the previous noble Lord referred to, because many people continue to struggle. This cannot go on, not least because prevention is absolutely crucial as we move towards making an NHS fit for the future.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register as chair of the General Dental Council. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for twice referring to the General Dental Council, but she has, perhaps inadvertently, given the impression that all that is required for a new dental school is that somebody rocks up to the General Dental Council and says they would like to open one. What consideration has she given to where the resources will come from for the training of extra dentists through a new dental school? Can she say what is being done to look at the best use of the number of dental professionals that exist around the country in order to make the best use of the skills mix between dentists and dental care professionals?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My noble friend makes, as ever, very important points, and I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify that it is not a matter of just rocking up to the General Dental Council. However, we may find—I am sure that we will—that, in order to deliver our workforce ambitions, we need to work with partners such as NHS England and the GDC to explore the creation of new dental schools in currently underserved areas of the country. We have already had one such example. Provided that a prospective dental school meets the requirements of the GDC and the Office for Students, it will be considered for future government-funded training places. I absolutely agree with my noble friend that there are a number of layers to this, and I also agree that we need to look at the whole dental team, including dentists. There are a number of people involved in care, and it is crucial that the workforce plan can deliver on that.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, the Minister said that it was not only about rocking up to the General Dental Council, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, but about having conversations. Can the Minister confirm what specific conversations the Government have had with the NHS, with the General Dental Council and with other dental bodies to encourage the opening of schools of dentistry in so-called dental deserts, especially in areas such as Norfolk, which my noble friend Lord Fuller described as the Sahara of dental deserts?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
As the noble Lord will know, we are very keen to see that the areas that are most underserved—as I know from my own experience in Lincolnshire—are targeted. One of the reasons is the problem of recruiting and retaining dentists, as there is not a dental school to call upon. That point is well understood. We are keen to target the areas that need the most, as well as providing additional urgent dental appointments. Early conversations have also taken place with the Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock, about reforming the dental contract, which is absolutely key, and that work will continue at pace.
The Lord Bishop of Newcastle
My Lords, the Child of the North report, published in September, on the crisis in oral health in children, reported that 20% of children in the north-east have tooth decay in their permanent teeth. What plans do the Government have to implement one of the report’s recommendations—namely, to have a national strategy for children’s oral health, of which the establishment of new dental schools could be a part?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. The fact is that the overall state of our children’s oral health is very poor, including in the north-east, as she rightly identifies. One of the shocking facts is the impact on children’s ability to sleep, eat, play, socialise and even learn. It is also shocking that tooth decay is still the most common reason for hospital admission in children aged five to nine years. We will indeed look at the report, but we do have a strategy, including the introduction of supervised toothbrushing for young children in disadvantaged areas.
Arrangement of Business
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, the next two items of business are questions on Urgent Questions asked in the other place. The clue is in the title: questions. We have 10 minutes for each, so please ask short, sharp, succinct questions and, equally, give short, sharp, succinct responses.
Police Reform
(2 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, having spent 32 years as a detective officer investigating crime in the police, I never thought I would ask this question, but does the Minister agree that it is important that police spend their time actually investigating crime, not policing thought? Will he agree to change the guidelines urgently on non-crime hate incidents?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
Yes, the Government are reviewing the guidelines on non-crime hate incidents. We will work with the police college and the National Police Chiefs’ Council to review that. The police should concentrate on serious crime, street crime and neighbourhood policing accordingly.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
My Lords, additional investment in neighbourhood policing is of course most welcome, but it is also crucial that forces have adequate support staff, to free up front-line officers. The uplift programme’s ring-fenced funding model forced police officers into back-office roles, damaging efficiency and morale. Does the Minister agree that greater flexibility is needed to deliver neighbourhood policing—for example, allowing chief constables to decide the most operationally effective workforce mix of both officers and back-room staff, crucially without them then incurring financial penalties?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The Government are committed, as part of our manifesto commitments, to encouraging and supplying resources to fund 13,000 neighbourhood police officers. How police and crime commissioners and chief constables determine the use of that resource is for them. We will have the overall policing Statement in December, but last week my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced an extra £264 million for policing, a £0.5 billion fund to support wider policing, and additional measures on respect orders and anti-social behaviour. I hope the noble Baroness will await the Statement in December, but I hear what she says about the flexibility we require.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there are significant savings to be made by a greater harmonisation in procurement policies among police forces? If he does, how does he intend to press that forward?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I agree absolutely. One of the options that the Home Secretary announced last week was a police performance unit to look at more centralised procurement. There are savings to be made in the police budget by 43 forces working together in certain areas. That will be part of the establishment that will be taken forward by the police performance unit, and I hope that the noble Viscount will welcome it in due course.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, will my noble friend have a word with the National Crime Agency to see if it can speed up and report early on its inquiry into Michelle Mone—the noble Baroness, Lady Mone—and her husband and the allegations of criminality against them? Until the National Crime Agency reports, we are unable to get a report from our own commissioner, who has investigated whether or not she has broken our rules as well.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My noble friend will know that the investigation by any police force, not least the National Crime Agency, is a matter for that police force, not Ministers. Additional resources will go into policing next year, so if that is a problem for the National Crime Agency it can call on those additional resources, but it is not for me to determine investigations.
Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)
My Lords, the Minister might find this question familiar: with police and crime commissioners deciding police priorities, police budgets and how those budgets are spent in consultation with their chief constable, and with chief constables having operational independence, how much influence can the Government realistically have over policing under current arrangements?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The Government have quite a lot of influence over policing. As the noble Lord will know, we set the budget for policing and will do so in December. As he will also know, particularly after my contribution today, there is £264 million of additional funding going in, along with £0.5 billion going in overall. Police national insurance contributions will be covered by central government, and a new policing unit is being put in place. There is a push on violence against women and girls. New respect orders are going into place. There will be new powers to tackle off-road bikes. We are giving priorities to police on those issues. This is a partnership. Police and crime commissioners are there, as are chief constables. The Government set a framework and set decisions—for example, the changes in law that we will bring to this House on shoplifting and shop theft. There is a serious central role, but self-evidently there is a local decision-making process as well.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, on White Ribbon Day, whose slogan is, “It starts with men”, will the Minister note the irony of the British Transport Police’s new policy allowing a male officer who identifies as a woman to conduct intimate searches of women? Will he add that to the police reform agenda and condemn, along with me, what some women’s rights campaigners are calling state-sanctioned sexual assault—that is, police violence against women and girls?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
Trans people have a right to exist and be employed in communities to work with communities, and I will defend that right for trans people to hold responsible positions in society. If the noble Baroness wants to write to me with a specific example, we will look at that but, as far as I am concerned, let us get round to the basics that trans people are people.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my policing interests in the register. Is it not the case that successive Governments have focused almost to the exclusion of all else on the question of police numbers? Does my noble friend agree that there is a case for allowing chief constables and police and crime commissioners much more flexibility about the way in which they use the total police workforce, perhaps not always using police officers but instead using PCSOs or police staff to carry out the functions that need to be carried out? It is not necessary to have a fully warranted, fully trained constable to carry out all the things that a police force needs to do.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to my noble friend for the experience he brings to the Question. It is certainly the Government’s wish to give flexibility to local police and crime commissioners and chief constables to determine their local priorities, but we still need to set central advice, guidance and funding. One of the key things that will come out of the December settlement will be a focus on neighbourhood policing. It was a manifesto commitment to invest in 13,000 neighbourhood police officers to ensure greater engagement at a local level on crime detection, support from the community and a wider neighbourhood policing role. Within that flexibility I am very happy for chief constables and police and crime commissioners to allow a range of roles to be undertaken to achieve the Government’s objective of reducing crime.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, as an ex-police and crime commissioner some years ago now, I agree with the Minister in his reply to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. I know from bitter experience that, because of government settlements, the number of police officers went down year by year and there was nothing that a police and crime commissioner let alone a chief constable could do about it. It may not be all important but it is pretty important, so are those years over now?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
We are trying to reset the relationship between central government and the 43 police forces. That resettlement includes a £0.5 billion boost to policing generally; a new standards authority; £264 million announced up front to help support police to deliver good services; a settlement in December which I am not at liberty yet to talk about, because it is right and proper that we announce that to both Houses in December; and a range of new powers on anti-social behaviour, shop theft and violence against women and girls to set the tone that we need to take action on serious organised crime, violence against women and basic neighbourhood policing issues such as shop theft. I hope that will reset that relationship and I will be held to account by this House and others in doing so.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
I refer back to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley. Might the Minister wish to reconsider his reaction that a legitimate question about the sanction of the British Transport Police of transgender officers being able to conduct intimate searches of women was a suggestion that she was casting any kind of aspersion on trans people?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I will reflect on what the noble Baroness has said, and on what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley—in the county of Flintshire—said about that issue, and I will write to both of them. There might be a need for some guidance, but the key point I am making is that we have to recognise that trans people can fulfil roles in policing and should be encouraged and supported to do so.
Asylum Seekers: Hotel Accommodation
(2 months ago)
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Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
My Lords, there were 213 hotels in use by the Home Office at the time of the election; there are now 220. That is an increase of seven which have opened under this Government, notwithstanding the commitment in the Labour manifesto to “end hotel use”. When does the Minister envisage reducing the number of hotels again and when does he envisage ending the use of hotels, as his party promised?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
The Government have closed 14 hotels since July; there have been additions, so there is a net increase of seven hotels. The key point that the Government are trying to undertake—I know that the noble Lord will know this—is to reset the agenda on this issue. That means putting money into a secure command at sea to ensure that we do not have those small boats coming in the first place; speeding up asylum claims; encouraging deportations of those who do not have a right to be here; and looking at the long-term issues of hotel accommodation.
In answer to the noble Lord’s question, it remains the Government’s ambition to exit hotels as soon as possible, because he left us with a bill of £8 million per day and with £700 million of expenditure on a Rwanda scheme that sent four people to Rwanda, all voluntarily. We inherited a scheme that would have cost billions of pounds and would not have deterred or stopped the use of hotels. We need to speed up asylum accommodation. We will do that and, at the appropriate time, exit hotels and save the taxpayer resource by doing so.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, as I am supported by RAMP. I appreciate the position that the Government find themselves in: a huge backlog of people to deal with, some of them here for a very long time indeed. Has the Minister considered that a way of releasing some accommodation would be to allow people who are here now and have been for more than six months to start to do some work, even on a temporary basis, and therefore fend for themselves? That would be just like the rules used in every country in the European Union.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I appreciate the suggestion and will take it as a representation from the noble Lord as to government policy. We are concerned with trying to reduce the use of asylum as a whole, to stop people coming and to undertake deportations where they are appropriate. On the asylum figures, 10,000 claims every month are now being taken through the system. When the noble Lord, Lord Murray, was the Minister it was 1,000 a month, so it is a massive increase in relation to asylum support. We put additional officers in to do that. We have put an additional £75 million into the border security scheme, with a brand new border command, and stopped the wasteful Rwanda programme, which has cost us £700 million to date and would have cost us billions of pounds accordingly. I will take the representation but the Government’s focus is to speed up asylum claims, stop the boats in the first place, ensure that we repatriate that money and, in answer to the noble Lord’s question, exit hotels as quickly as possible to save the taxpayer resource.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend did not mean that he wanted to reduce asylum, because it is a legitimate—
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
Good. I am glad and wanted to put that on the record. Last week, a round table of academics and stakeholders heard of children wrongly assessed as adults being put in hotels with adults, to the detriment of their mental health. Are the Government looking at this as an issue?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I reassure my noble friend that the Government have a proud role in accepting people with legitimate asylum claims. The key question, which relates to the questions from both Opposition Front-Bench spokespeople, is about the speed and efficiency, and the prevention of illegal entry where there is no asylum claim. The Government will take that on board and I will certainly take away the point that my noble friend mentions. I will look at whether we have figures and facts on children being used and accommodated in that way. If she will let me, I will report back to her and place any letter in the Library of the House.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, what are the Government doing about getting rid of those who should not be here?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I can help the noble and learned Baroness on that point. Between 5 July and 28 October this year, which is the only time that I can account for as Minister, the Government have returned 9,400 people who have no right to be here. Of those 9,400 returned, 2,590 were enforced returns, which is a 19% increase on when the noble Lord, Lord Murray, held this post not 12 months ago.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
Uniquely in the OECD, the previous Government made the decision to overturn many years of UK practice to score as 100% official development assistance the first-year immigration costs, including hotel costs. This has meant that the ODA budget has been massively squeezed, to the extent that under the previous Government in their last full year, more ODA was spent in the UK on immigration costs than on bilateral programmes abroad, in direct contravention of the 2002 legislation. Many people thought the new Labour Government would reverse this calumny, but they have not—in fact, they are doubling down. Can the Minister tell me what the ODA costs are for the first year of immigration under this new Government and why they have taken the decision to penalise the most vulnerable and poorest around the world for the failures of the previous Government?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
With due respect to the noble Lord, I will look into his point, but we are four and a half months into this Government. The focus the Government have had so far—and I say this genuinely—has been the removals of people with no right to be here, putting extra resources into speeding up the asylum system, stopping this failed Rwanda scheme, and putting money into border security. These things take time. I will reflect on the points he has made, but it is not the long-term aim of the Government to spend the overseas aid budget on supporting issues to do with asylum in the United Kingdom. The aim of this Government is to speed up the asylum system, stop people fraudulently coming, and welcome people who, as my noble friend Lady Lister said, deserve and require asylum under our legal obligations. But we have to try to move this tanker in a very slow and difficult way. The tanker is slowly and surely being moved. I hope the noble Lord will recognise that.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
Does the Minister acknowledge that the existence of the international convention does make it extraordinarily difficult to turn the tanker?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
No, we respect our international obligations—and we can take action. As I said a moment ago, the 9,400 total returns is a 19% increase over the past year; 2,590 were enforced returns. It is an important step by this Government to remove people who have no right of abode in this United Kingdom. But we will respect asylum claims that are legitimate. We will speed them up and, by doing so, we will ensure—to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord German—that people, having had that asylum approved, will be able to go out and contribute to society. It is a very difficult tanker to turn, as the noble Viscount will understand, but it is one that we are determined to turn.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, back in April a joint report from the APPG on Poverty and the APPG on Migration recommended that asylum seekers should be allowed to work after six months in the country. Given the enormous asylum backlog and the costs to which we are referring, surely the Government are considering allowing asylum seekers to work after six months, so that they can both support themselves and contribute their skills and energy to our economy, while we deal with this enormous continuing backlog.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I refer the noble Baroness to the answer I gave earlier to the noble Lord, Lord German. Those are issues I will take as a representation, but the prime focus of the Government currently is to increase the use of asylum cases being approved and we have done that—up from 1,000 a month to 10,000 in the last month. That has been a big focus. I repeat myself, but it is important, the focus is on the issue of small boats, the Border Security Command and the issue of trying in the long term to reduce the number of hotels and to scrap the Rwanda scheme. Those are initial proposals the Government have brought forward. We will look at other options in due course.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, are we not seen as a soft touch by those who want to get into this country and as having little control over the number of people coming in? According to reports, there may be close on a million people who are not registered as British citizens. Should we not be exploring again the use of a modern identity system? The abolition of the ID cards by the coalition Government was a serious error. Is it not the case that we will have to return to it, and the sooner we look at that, the better?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I respect the question from my noble friend. I reassure him that this United Kingdom Labour Government are not a soft touch on migration to this country. We have invested in Border Force. We are investing in additional measures to prevent illegal entry and in a e-visa system which will allow people to come into this country through a controlled mechanism.
On the aspirations for an identity card, I was in the Home Office when we introduced the identity card. It went through the noble Baroness, Lady May, in her actions as Home Secretary. It is not likely to return soon.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
My Lords, my apologies for inadvertently cutting off the Minister.
G20 and COP 29 Summits
(2 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I will repeat a Statement the Prime Minister made last Thursday:
“Thank you for your earlier words about John Prescott. We woke today to the deeply sad news that we have lost a true giant of the Labour movement and of this House; a man who fought for working-class ambition because he lived it. As one of the key architects of a Labour Government, John achieved that rare thing: he changed people’s lives and he set the path for us all to follow. I will always be grateful to him for that. He did it in his own way, with humour, pride, passion and total conviction. He truly was a one-off. There will be a moment for fuller tributes, but today I send my deepest condolences to John’s wife Pauline and his family, to the city of Hull, and to all those who knew and loved him. His legacy lives on in all of us.
I would like to update the House on my engagements at COP and the G20. We live in a dangerous and volatile world. We all wish that that were not the case, but it is, and it means that global problems are reaching into the lives of our constituents more and more. Climate change causes extreme weather, such as the terrible floods that we saw in September, and drives down economic growth; conflicts drive up the prices of fuel, food and energy and threaten our stability and security; and both are drivers of migration. To serve the British people we must tackle these problems head-on, because they do not stop at our borders—and that is the fundamental point. At every meeting I had at COP and the G20, and in every agreement I entered into, my focus was on tackling these problems to deliver growth and security for the British people.
At COP, I made the case that we must act on climate change and nature loss as some of the greatest long-term threats we face, and in doing so we must seize the opportunities of the low-carbon economy for investment, for UK businesses and for British workers. At COP, I was proud to announce the UK’s new nationally determined contribution, with a 2035 target to reduce all greenhouse gas emissions by at least 81% on 1990 levels. I called on other countries to match that ambition to limit global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees, and I made the investment case for the transformation that we are leading here in the UK.
By launching GB Energy, creating the National Wealth Fund to build new energy infrastructure and setting a path to clean power by 2030, we will not just boost our energy security and protect bill payers, but put Britain in pole position to claim the clean energy jobs of the future. That is why at COP, I was able to announce a £1 billion wind turbine investment that will support 1,300 local jobs around Hull—something of which John would have been proud—and produce enough clean energy to power 1 million homes. That is in addition to the recent investment in carbon capture in Teesside and Merseyside, which will create 4,000 jobs, and the investment announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor for 11 new green hydrogen projects across Britain.
Tackling climate change is a global effort, of course, so at the G20, together with Brazil and 10 other countries, I launched our global clean power alliance to speed up the international rollout of clean power, accelerate investment, and cut emissions around the world.
We came together at the G20 to meet other challenges as well. I was pleased to join President Lula’s Global Alliance Against Hunger and Poverty to bring an end to the lost decade in that fight, because this is also an investment in stability and in tackling the factors that force people to leave their homes and make long journeys that too often end with criminal gangs exploiting them and putting their lives at risk in the English Channel. We will smash those gangs. I am sure the House will welcome last week’s news from the Netherlands, where the National Crime Agency, operating with European partners, arrested a man suspected of being a major supplier of small boats equipment. We will hit these organised criminals with the full force of the law, but we will also work with our partners to address the root causes of the problem.
The G20 represents 85% of global GDP, so we have a shared interest in driving up growth and investment. I held productive bilateral meetings with many G20 leaders to that end: Brazil, Japan, Italy, South Africa, the Republic of Korea and others. I also met Italy and Japan together to take forward the Global Combat Air Programme, which will build the next generation of fighter jets, create highly skilled jobs and strengthen our national security for the longer term.
I also had a good discussion with Prime Minister Modi about deepening our bilateral ties. We agreed to raise the ambition of our UK-India comprehensive strategic partnership, covering security, defence, technology, climate, health and education, building on the unique bonds and cultural ties between our two countries. Crucially, this work will start with trade and investment, and I am pleased to say that we agreed to launch FTA negotiations early in the new year.
I also held a bilateral meeting with President Xi. This was the first high-level leader meeting between the United Kingdom and China for six years. We had a frank, constructive and pragmatic discussion. As G20 economies and permanent members of the Security Council at a time of huge volatility, we both recognise the importance of engagement. I was clear that we will always act in our national interest, but we need to work together on challenges such as climate change and delivering growth. We agreed to a new dialogue on these issues, which my right honourable friend the Chancellor will take forward with the Vice-Premier in Beijing. Of course, there will continue to be areas where we do not agree, and we will address them clearly and frankly. They include a number of human rights issues, the sanctioning of Members of this House and, of course, Hong Kong, but here too we need to engage. The lesson of history is that we are better able to deal with problems, and the world is safer, when leaders talk, so we agreed to keep this channel of communication open.
Although it was not on the formal agenda of the G20, the spectre of conflict loomed large over the summit. Conflict is spreading misery, destruction and despair, and causing children to starve and families to flee their homes. I called again for the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages in Gaza, who are always uppermost in our minds. I also called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and a massive increase in the flow of aid to Gaza, which is desperately needed. Yesterday, we backed a UN Security Council resolution to that end. We must find ways to make this international pressure count, to end the suffering on all sides.
The G20 coincided with 1,000 days of conflict in Ukraine. For the third year running, Putin did not attend. Instead, on the eve of the summit, he launched Russia’s biggest attack for months, killing yet more innocent Ukrainians and hitting civilian energy infrastructure at the start of winter, and he indulged yet again in dangerous, irresponsible rhetoric. This is a member of the Security Council acting with contempt for the UN charter. Whereas Brazil made finding solutions to hunger and poverty the focus of its presidency, in recent weeks Russian missiles have continued to rain down on civilian ships carrying grain bound for Africa. It could not be more clear: this is a man who wants destruction, not peace.
After 1,000 days of war—1,000 days of Ukrainian bravery and sacrifice—I am clear that we must double down on our support. We will not be deterred or distracted by reckless threats. We have consistently said that we will do what it takes to support Ukraine and put it in the best possible position going into the winter. The UK’s support for Ukraine is always for self-defence. It is proportionate, co-ordinated and agile, in response to Russia’s own actions. It is in accordance with international law: under Article 51 of the UN charter, Ukraine has a clear right of self-defence against Russia’s illegal attacks. I say again that Russia could roll back its forces and end this war tomorrow. Until then, we will stand up for what we know is right, for Ukraine’s security and for our own security, and we will back Ukraine with what is needed for as long as it takes.
In challenging times, I take the view that British leadership matters more than ever. For the sake of our growth and security, we are making our presence felt, giving the British people a voice on the global stage once again and standing up for the national interest. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I repeat the genuine sadness that we on this side also felt in losing a great comrade in this place: the late Lord Prescott. He was a man of the deepest conviction and principle. He was a great party man but, at the same time, a true patriot.
I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement, although I felt that a few of the Prime Minister’s words were somewhat self-congratulatory. Perhaps third-party congratulations for this Government are running a little short. The Statement pumps up unilateral announcements on energy policy that did not require the Prime Minister to go to Rio or Baku. Has the noble Baroness an update, asked for last week, on the costs of flying 470 UK delegates to Baku?
We will study carefully the conclusions of COP 29 on the important questions of climate change and nature loss, although I see with some regret that many developing countries have already criticised them. Can the noble Baroness confirm the new $300 billion annual climate finance target by 2035? Will she say what the contribution of the UK will be and whether the great polluter China will now contribute to this? How many countries have pledged to match the Prime Minister’s new long-term commitments?
The Statement claims that domestic energy initiatives will “protect bill payers”, yet Labour recently voted against enshrining in law a pre-election promise to bring down energy bills by £300, and it has accelerated policies to festoon our countryside with pylons and raise costs for consumers. The Government now admit that their energy policy will push 100,000 pensioners into poverty by 2027. How can the noble Baroness defend that?
The Statement referred to action against illegal migration, and we welcome that. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister met with the Prime Minister of Italy—there is always good advice to be had from real Conservatives. But is he aware that Italy and the EU are both actively pursuing what President von der Leyen has called “return hubs”, while the Labour Government have abandoned that course and are reopening asylum hotels, as we have just heard. The Prime Minister boasts of an arrest in Holland in the Statement, but, under the last Government, 246 people smugglers were arrested in one year.
On defence, we welcome the recommitment to pursuing the Global Combat Air Programme with Japan and Italy, but we still await any credible route to the 2.5% target on defence in the face of Russia’s aggression, which the Statement rightly condemned. But it was disappointing, at the very least, not to see this aggression called out by name in the G20 communiqué. We welcome and we back the Government’s continuing support for Ukraine. Putin’s aggression must be and will be stopped, and the noble Baroness has our support.
However, it was disappointing to see in paragraph 8 of the G20 communiqué no meaningful recognition of the terrorist onslaught on Israel, against which it has every right to protect itself. Instead, the Prime Minister again called for an immediate ceasefire. There was no mention in the communiqué of UN Resolution 1701, so flagrantly breached by Hezbollah. Does the noble Baroness agree that that resolution is fundamental? When she replies, will she assure the House, and indeed Jewish people in this country, that there will be no question of the UK Government undertaking or permitting an ICC-inspired arrest of Prime Minister Netanyahu, should he come to these shores? There can be no ifs and buts on this question, as my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar has explained.
The G20 rightly laid emphasis on the challenge of hunger, so much of which results, as the Prime Minister accurately said, from conflict. It is important that we play our full part in addressing that. Perhaps the Minister could say a little on our efforts in Sudan, which, sadly, went unmentioned in the communiqué.
Paragraph 15 of the G20 statement states that the world is capable of producing the food it needs. It is, but to do so it needs farmers. I doubt that world leaders were lining up outside the prime ministerial suite to ask for his advice on how to treat those hard-working people. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will give a lead to the world and think again about their cruel assault on small farming families?
I welcome the positive commitment to improving and maintaining relations with India, a great friend and a key strategic partner. On the Indian Ocean more widely, can the Minister tell us if, after the Government’s stampede to surrender the Chagos Islands without any consultation with the Chagossian people, President Milei of Argentina has asked for the handover of the Falklands? On Diego Garcia, President Trump’s nominee for Secretary of State, Senator Rubio, has said that the deal poses “a serious threat” to United States security. Will the Government undertake to pause the deal to allow for discussions with the incoming US Administration? Was that discussed with President Biden?
More widely on US-UK relations, can the Minister say something about the Government’s engagement with the incoming Administration? President Trump had a British mother; he hugely values that, and he loves Scotland. He may well be the last US President ever to have those credentials. Would it not be a historic act of folly if the UK Government, in their search for a so-called reset with an economically stagnant and divided EU, spurned the opportunity for a close and productive relationship with a pro-British US President?
The Prime Minister is clearly proud of meeting President Xi of China. He declared that he wanted a strong relationship, but when the Statement said, in a rather throwaway phrase,
“and, of course, Hong Kong”,
it sounded as if the snuffing out of freedom by China, contrary to treaty obligations, was a done deal; perhaps it was time to move on. [Interruption.] Someone says it is, but it is never time to move on on the strangling of freedom.
We hear that the Prime Minister mentioned the case of Jimmy Lai. I thank him for that, although the Statement was silent on it. But what assurances did we get in return? Was it not unfortunate that this glad-handing should go on in the week when the heroic Hong Kong 45 await their unjustified sentences?
Meanwhile, President Xi praised Labour’s economic policies. Had some Labour spin doctor sent him a line to take? Perhaps the president should see the comments from the CBI, British retailers and other business voices who say, correctly, that the Budget will destroy job creation and force up prices. Is that the message the Chancellor will be taking to Beijing: tax the living daylights out of wealth creators and innovators? I do not think they will roll out the red carpet in the Great Hall of the People for that. The Chinese are a little shrewder than that—although they may be quietly smiling at one of their international rivals dashing towards economic self-harm.
There was much that could be productive, and which we welcome, in the G20 discussions. However, surely it is now time that this globe-trotting Prime Minister turned his attention to problems at home: promises broken, growth stalling, inflation rising and business frankly reeling from the most brutal tax on jobs ever seen. It may have been high summer down in Rio, but here at home pensioners, farmers, small businesses and savers are wondering what tempest has hit them—and it was storm Starmer, not Storm Bert.
Lord Newby (LD)
I begin by joining from these Benches the tributes to Lord Prescott. With colleagues, I send our condolences to John Prescott’s family and friends.
I completely agree with the Prime Minister when he says that the world is safer when leaders talk. Given the many conflicts and challenges facing the world today, the need for international dialogue has never been greater. The Statement covers a very wide range of issues, of which I would like to refer to just five.
First, on our climate reduction commitments, it is a good start to set the target of an 81% reduction in our greenhouse gas emissions by 2035, but we still need an action plan to do so. The Statement stresses the important role which GB Energy and the National Wealth Fund will play in achieving this, but will the Leader accept that there is currently a complete muddle as to how the National Wealth Fund will operate at all? Its relationship with GB Energy is unclear, to put it mildly. Given the need to maximise investment on green energy from both these bodies, will the Government clarify this situation and present a detailed plan to explain how their laudable aspirations for decarbonising the economy will actually be met? As part of any plan, could the Government say what steps they are taking to ensure that the benefits from new wind farms are not delayed because they cannot get a timely connection to the grid, as was reported today in respect of BP’s Morven wind farm? We need a new sense of urgency in this whole area.
Secondly, we welcome the Government’s decision to join the Global Alliance against Hunger and Poverty, but can the noble Baroness the Leader explain how we can really step up to the plate on this so long as our commitment to aid continues to fall so far short of the 0.7% target? In the absence of any proposal to increase the currently planned 0.5% level, what will joining the global alliance mean? What is going to change?
Thirdly, on Gaza, we share the Government’s call for an immediate ceasefire and a massive increase in the flow of aid to Palestinian civilians, but does the noble Baroness accept that Israel shows not the slightest inclination to move in this direction, and is instead maintaining a programme of massive destruction and of denying aid to Gaza? The UK’s ability to influence events in the region is extremely limited, but one thing we could do would be to recognise Palestine as an independent state. Will the Government stop prevaricating on this issue and recognise Palestine now, without further delay?
Fourthly, on Ukraine, we support the Government in their determination to double down in our support for the Government in Kyiv. We welcome the long-delayed decision to allow the use of Storm Shadow missiles into Russian territory, but we believe that we should also be freeing up frozen Russian assets so that they can be used by Kyiv to support the war effort. This is an area where the Government could take a lead, by calling a summit of European leaders to unblock these assets. Will the Government now do so?
Finally, on China, the Prime Minister has had what he called “frank, constructive and pragmatic” discussions. This is welcome. The Statement refers to Hong Kong but is not specific about exactly what was discussed. Did the Prime Minister raise the case of Jimmy Lai and the 45 jailed pro-democracy campaigners? If so, what was President Xi’s response? When the Prime Minister says that we need to work together with China on delivering growth, what does that mean in practice?
The previous Government succeeded in trashing the UK’s global reputation, and we welcome the Prime Minister’s attempts to rebuild it, but action must now follow the promises he has made if we are really to punch our weight again on the international stage.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for most of the comments made by both noble Lords. I will do my best to answer as many as I can in the time remaining. I thank them for their comments about our friend John Prescott. John and I were introduced into this House on the same day. My mum still tells with great affection the story of meeting Pauline in the loo and having a chat afterwards. He was a one-off, and we miss him greatly.
I have to say that I thought the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition’s comments about the Prime Minister were really unwarranted and unworthy of him. This country has a role to play on the international stage. We have not really made our weight and our presence felt in the way that we should. The fact that this was the first time in six years that there had been a meeting between the Chinese Premier and a Prime Minister does not serve the best interests of this country. The Leader of the Opposition asked specifically about that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and we have to co-operate where we can with China; we have to compete where it is appropriate; and, as my noble friend Lord Collins has said on many occasions, there are times when we must challenge as well. The frank discussions that were had were very important. Yes, the first item on the agenda was Jimmy Lai. The world will have seen that was the first issue that the Prime Minister raised, because the cameras were there at that time—although they were ushered out soon after.
The Secretary of State will make a further Statement on the detail of energy policy, but the thing that will make the most difference and will help enormously in bringing down prices and protecting our energy security is GB Energy, where we have been dependent on an international market buffeting us around. We will hear more about that, but in answer to both noble Lords, I say that we will publish our clean power action plan by the end of the year. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, was absolutely right to talk about the national grid connections, which are poor and need to be improved. My right honourable friend will say more on that, but we are working on improving those connections at pace.
I think the noble Lord, Lord True, was a little confused when he talked about return hubs and the Rwanda policy, comparing to what has happened in other countries. There is a real difference between offshoring and outsourcing. This country has had offshoring arrangements with other countries for some time, but when you outsource or offload your immigration policy, that is when there is a significant difference. Given the amount of money spent by this country on the failed Rwanda policy—frankly, more Home Secretaries, Prime Ministers and journalists went to Rwanda than those seeking asylum or who had to have their claims assessed—I will take no lectures from the party opposite about that. What will really make a difference is the kind of international discussion which is being had about tackling the gangs. I was surprised that the noble Lord did not congratulate the Government and the National Crime Agency, because working with other countries is really important. Think of the arrest in the Netherlands last week. He shakes his head at me, but it is a significant step forward and one we hope to see more of.
The noble Lord also asked about the Falkland Islands. I do not know how many times we have to say from this Dispatch Box that the Falkland Islands and the Chagos Islands are completely different. We have made clear our support for the Falkland Islanders time and again, and I am entirely happy to do so again. The sovereignty of the Falkland Islands is not up for debate; it is an absolute commitment. I remind him that it was the previous Government who started negotiations on the Chagos Islands back in November 2022. Those discussions were not concluded, and that put the military base at risk. Under the agreement secured with Mauritius, the UK/US military base on Diego Garcia is now secured. That is the first time in 50 years that it is undisputed and legally secure. That was not the case before.
The noble Lord asked for an assurance about US engagement. I thought that it was clear that it has been the policy of this Government, and will continue to be, that we engage with foreign Governments. He described the Statement as self-congratulatory. It was not. It made clear that we have a place in the world. We have to find our place in the world and show our commitment to negotiations. In the relationship so far, the Prime Minister has met the President and the President-elect; there is ongoing dialogue and discussion and there will continue to be so. The noble Lord should recognise that it is an important relationship for this country, but we also recognise that relationships around the world are crucial as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about aid into Israel and Gaza, and he is absolutely right. There are two sides to this: the hostages must be released—just imagine the agonies of those families not knowing if the hostages are dead or alive or what state they are in—and that is a prerequisite; but, at the same time, given the amount of suffering of the people in Gaza, getting aid in as quickly as possible, particularly with winter coming, is absolutely crucial. Both those issues were discussed at the G20, and we will continue to put pressure at every opportunity possible.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, we now move on to 20 minutes of questions. To get as many noble Lords in as possible, we need questions, not speeches.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader referred to GB Energy. Are the Government looking at small nuclear reactors?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am happy to give a very quick answer to the noble Baroness: yes, they are.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
It was a comprehensive Statement, but it included wording about
“a 2035 target to reduce all greenhouse gas emissions by at least 81% on 1990 levels”.
I know a clean energy mission is coming and we will learn the details there, but could the noble Baroness just explain how that squares with the aim of decarbonising all power by 2030 and an all-electric economy—or is that by 2035? Some of us are getting a bit confused with this and other developments. If we could just know roughly where we are going and whether these things are remotely attainable, that would help.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Targets are there to be attained and reached, and every effort is being made. The difference is that 2030 is the national target; 2035 is the international agreement reached at the summits. I hope that is helpful.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
While I applaud the Government’s policy of being civilised, nice and supportive of President-elect Trump because we have to work with him, will it be made abundantly clear, without qualification, that this country will not import hormone-treated beef or chlorinated washed chicken?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
From a sedentary position, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, suggests that was an application to be ambassador—I think not.
On all these things, the food safety agency will be involved to ensure that all products must be safe. The issue of chlorinated washed chicken previously caused enormous concern to the public, and that is why labelling is important. But I am sure these issues will be discussed as part of a new trade deal.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that this is an appropriate moment to mention Lord Prescott’s involvement in the Kyoto Protocol? I think it was one of his outstanding achievements.
Can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House say a little bit about the forward look for next year’s COP meeting in Belém in Brazil? With a good Brazilian Minister of the Environment who is genuinely committed to stopping the destruction of the Amazon rainforest, there are surely major opportunities now to have a somewhat less contentious approach than we had to this year’s COP. Can she also say a little bit about what we are going to do on food security, because Brazil is very relevant there. Brazil has enormous capacity for agriculture and food production but not a very active programme of development in developing countries; we have a development policy. Can we not make them work a bit better together?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his comments about John Prescott and Kyoto. It was one of the things of which he was most proud, and in many ways he was a man ahead of his time—many derided him on that issue but he was proved to be absolutely right. It remained an abiding passion of his right until the very end.
The noble Lord is right that the Brazil COP presents a major opportunity. Discussions are difficult when so many countries are trying to reach an agreement, so how these discussions are managed and how the countries work together is really important. The noble Lord has made the point about how the climate emergency affects every part of our lives in terms of food security and migration; they are interconnected, and that is why the role on the world stage is important. Food security is an issue that will be discussed at the next COP, because it is part and parcel of what is happening to the world with the climate emergency. The noble Lord is also right that the relationship between our country and Brazil has grown in the last few years. Certainly, at this COP, both Brazil and the UK were asked for advice on many occasions. After a very difficult COP this time, we must try to be as optimistic as we can to see what progress can be made in Brazil.