(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
1. What recent assessment he has made of the threat to security in Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
6. What recent assessment he has made of the threat to security in Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the threat to security in Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I believe that the House will want to pay tribute to Sir Oliver Napier, whose funeral was held yesterday. He was a founding father and leader of the Alliance party, and a member of the power-sharing Executive in 1974. He led the way towards inclusive politics, and was widely respected across the entire community. He will be much missed.
The threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe. Despite the overwhelming community rejection of violence, the terrorist groups continue to pose an indiscriminate threat to the safety of police officers and the general public, who want their lives to be free of fear, disruption and intimidation.
Graham Evans
The violent scenes that we have witnessed in part of east Belfast in recent days are obviously a matter of great concern. Will my right hon. Friend join me in sending our support and gratitude to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for its restraint, courage and success in combating that disorder as well as the continuing terrorist threat in Northern Ireland?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question and I wholly endorse his comments. I happily put on record the Government’s deep appreciation of the restraint and skill with which the PSNI handled the recent disturbances.
However, I would put out a public appeal to all those who are considering expressing their views over the next few days. They, too, should show restraint. I remind them that the rule of law will prevail, and that this week, significant prosecutions have resulted from charges against those who broke the law a year ago.
Jake Berry
Does my right hon. Friend agree that close co-operation between the PSNI, the Garda, and Ministers here, in Belfast and in Dublin, is essential in combating the ongoing terrorist threat? Will he join me in congratulating the Garda on its recent discovery of an arms cache and arrests in County Louth?
Mr Paterson
It is almost impossible to stress how closely we are now working. Last week, I met Eamon Gilmore, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and I had several discussions in the last week with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence. I also recently saw the Garda commissioner. The Garda is to be wholly congratulated on its recent raid at Hackballscross in County Louth, where a significant amount of lethal matériel was apprehended. I am delighted to confirm that the co-operation with the PSNI gets better from month to month.
Karl MᶜCartney
Does my right hon. Friend agree that at a time of such pressure on the public finances, the exceptional deal to the give the PSNI an extra £200 million over the next four years is a clear demonstration that this Government will always stand by Northern Ireland?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the chance to remind the House that we endorsed £50 million last year and a further unprecedented £200 million over the next four years. We are absolutely determined to bear down on the current threat, and I am delighted that Matt Baggot, the Chief Constable, to whom I spoke this morning, confirmed that we
“have the resources, the resilience and…the commitment”
to meet that threat.
Glyn Davies
All of us in the House are concerned about the recent violence in east Belfast and acknowledge the challenges facing the PSNI. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a very significant role for the Northern Ireland Executive in tackling the underlying causes that fuel that violence?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for his question. The problem cannot be contained by security activity alone, however well co-ordinated and well funded by the PSNI and the Garda. Ultimately, this must be sorted out on the ground, by local politicians working with local people. That was confirmed in the Independent Monitoring Commission report that said:
“The main responsibility for dealing with these challenges rests with the Assembly, the Executive and local politicians, working in conjunction with community leaders, churches, the law enforcement and other public institutions, and ultimately, with the…whole community”.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
In 2004, Jane Kennedy, the then Northern Ireland Office Minister, told the House that an inventory of all decommissioned weapons would be published when the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning had completed its work. The IICD stood down on Monday, but no inventory was published. Will the Secretary of State tell the House why that pledge was not honoured, and does he accept that that will affect public confidence?
Mr Paterson
The IICD made it clear why it did not publish an inventory. We would like to be in the position to publish this data, as the then Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, Jane Kennedy, was back in 2003-04, but the success of the IICD has been its independence, and it is for it to decide—it is entirely within its remit—where it puts this information. It is now in the hands of the US Secretary of State and cannot be divulged without the prior agreement of the Irish and British Governments.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I acknowledge the information that the Secretary of State has just given us about dissident activity, the report published by the Independent Monitoring Commission last Monday and the fact that the level of dissident activity is now higher than when it published its first report in 2004. The report stated that loyalist groups were finding it difficult to contemplate going out of business. In that context, does he agree that whatever we do to bring the paramilitary activity to a peaceful conclusion, it will not be achieved by throwing money at gang leaders, as has been suggested in east Belfast over the past few weeks?
Mr Paterson
I just quoted from the IMC report showing that these problems will not be resolved by one simple solution. They have to be resolved on the ground by working with local people at the closest level. That means down to community groups and local politicians. It is not for us to lay down the law from Westminster. That is now in local hands.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State give us some guidance on the extent to which the police and his office are getting co-operation from all communities in identifying those responsible for the ongoing terrorist activities on both sides of the divide?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. The police are conducting a review and a serious investigation into the disturbances last week, and it would be wrong to pre-empt what they discover. However, once we have the information from the police, we will make further decisions.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
2. What assessment he has made of the effects on the service sector in Northern Ireland of reductions in Government spending.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Tackling the deficit remains the Government’s biggest priority, and Northern Ireland has its part to play in achieving that outcome. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to boost private sector growth and investment and to help rebalance the economy.
Chris Evans
I am sure that the Minister will have seen that 59,500 people are signed on the dole in Northern Ireland. Whenever anyone losses their job, it is a tragedy for their family and causes hurt and pain. What are the Government going to do about it?
Mr Swire
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s interest in Northern Ireland, and I hope that it will continue. I hope also that he will join me in celebrating the jobs that the service sector in Northern Ireland has attracted. The New York stock exchange has attracted 400 new jobs; Citigroup financial services will attract 500 jobs over the next five years; and the law firm Allen and Overy has attracted 300 jobs in Belfast. To answer his question directly, I would say that Northern Ireland is a great place for the service industries. It is open and we want more investment, and I hope that he and his party will join us in making that happen.
Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
Well that all sounds very good, but in the past 12 months, the Northern Ireland claimant count has increased by 7%. That is the biggest increase in the UK and 21 times the national average. The Minister will know that the Northern Bank/Oxford Economics survey has now dramatically downgraded economic growth forecasts in Northern Ireland to 1.1% from a previous forecast of 1.9%. The Northern Ireland economy needs help now. What is the Minister going to do?
Mr Swire
It is regrettable that the Secretary of State is talking Northern Ireland down—[Interruption.] The independent Office for Budget Responsibility’s recent updated fiscal and economic forecasts show that the Government’s plans will deliver sustainable growth in each of the next five years with employment rising by 1.1 million by 2015 across the UK and the deficit falling. That of course includes Northern Ireland. The unemployment rate for Northern Ireland was down by 0.8% over the quarter and the number of unemployed people in Northern Ireland was estimated at 61,000—down 6,000 over the quarter. It is because of the Government’s determination to tackle the deficit and the legacy we inherited from a Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was part that these figures are good.
Mr Woodward
Regrettably, the only thing that is going down is an economic forecast from 1.9% to 1.1%. Undoubtedly the Minister will update his brief in due course. The Secretary of State proposes a change in corporation tax rates to help in the long term. I seek clarification. We know that the immediate impact of the cut in the block grant will be the loss of tens of thousands of jobs in the public sector, especially in education. However, if the policy in the medium term creates jobs, it follows that there will be additional revenue from income tax and a decrease in welfare payments. He wants the public sector, especially in education, to take the pain now, but in the future, if those benefits flow from increases in jobs and tax revenues, will the Treasury keep the money or will it go to the people of Northern Ireland?
Mr Swire
The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue of corporation tax. There has been widespread consultation on the issue, and all the political parties in Northern Ireland support devolving the power to Northern Ireland. We believe that it will bring growth and jobs; equally, we believe that it is important to rebalance Northern Ireland’s economy, regardless of the situation that we inherited. Like me, the right hon. Gentleman represents an English constituency, and he will be aware that Northern Ireland receives about 25% more in spend per head of the population than England. It is therefore important that we rebalance Northern Ireland’s economy and allow it to grow.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
3. What recent assessment he has made of the extent of petrol and diesel smuggling from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs leads the work to crack down on fuel smuggling and fraud, working closely with the Irish authorities. The Organised Crime Task Force, which is chaired by the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, estimated in its 2011 threat assessment that there is an annual tax loss of £200 million from fuel fraud and legitimate cross-border fuel shopping.
Robert Halfon
Estimates suggest that the Government actually lose between £280 million to £300 million a year to fuel smuggling and laundering in Northern Ireland. That pushes up fuel taxes for everyone, which is deeply unfair. Does my right hon. Friend agree that extending rural fuel pilots to the new economic zones would cut smuggling and save the taxpayer an absolute fortune?
Mr Swire
I agree that we need to save the taxpayer an absolute fortune, and I have had discussions about this issue with both the Northern Ireland Justice Minister and the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury. I recently brought to the attention of the Exchequer Secretary and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—who is here with us today—the comments of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who has some ideas about various companies that can help with the traceability of fuel. However, I would also point out to my hon. Friend that the “Cross-Border Organised Crime Assessment 2010” said:
“Changes in exchange and duty rates have made this…less profitable over the past few years than it would have been previously.”
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
We have just heard about the amount of money that Her Majesty’s Government are losing in revenue to fuel smuggling and laundering. The Minister will be aware of recent findings of large amounts of fuel on the border. Can he please update us on the fuel duty escalator and the possible introduction of a pilot scheme in Northern Ireland?
Mr Swire
I think that I have just answered that question, which was not dissimilar to that asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). In direct answer to the point about co-operation across the border, relations are extremely good, as is true for all our relations with the Republic of Ireland, not least with the Garda. We are working in close co-operation, hence the success of the Organised Crime Task Force and HMRC in driving down fuel smuggling.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
4. What recent representations he has received on the rate of VAT applied to tourism activities in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Northern Ireland has enormous attractions for tourists and we strongly support efforts to encourage them to visit. The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) raised the issue of VAT rates at a recent meeting with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but these matters are not our direct responsibility.
Mark Durkan
The Minister of State should be aware that as of last week, VAT in the tourism sector in the south of Ireland has been reduced to 9% for 18 months. Similar steps have been taken in France and Germany. Will he and the Secretary of State use their standing with their colleagues in the Treasury to commend a sectorally targeted VAT cut for tourism throughout the UK?
Mr Swire
The hon. Gentleman knows that the EU average for VAT is 20.8%, whereas VAT in the UK is 20%. Germany’s lower rate is simply a mechanism to redistribute money from the centre to the Länder, as Germany has many local tourist—or “bed”—taxes. We would all like lower taxation and we would all like the deficit to be addressed, which is what we are seeking to do, but this is not just about the rates of VAT. London hotels are doing better than they have done for some time, there are more tourist visitors to Northern Ireland than there have been for some time and the hon. Gentleman’s city of Londonderry will be city of culture in 2013. We need to offer people value for money and good hospitality—that I am sure we can do—and the issue of VAT will then become secondary.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
On future taxation policy, will the Secretary of State tell us whether the electricity White Paper that is soon to be published will contain proposals to address the fact that Northern Ireland has a single electricity market, linked with the Republic of Ireland? Will it address the implications of those arrangements for providers and users of energy in Northern Ireland, in that they could influence the market disproportionately?
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
5. What assessment he has made of the role of dissident republicans in recent disturbances in the Short Strand area of Belfast; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
The Government utterly condemn all those involved in the localised violence in part of east Belfast a fortnight ago. It would be unwise for me to comment on the role played by specific groups while the police investigation is ongoing, but I know that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is determined to bring those responsible to justice.
Mrs Glindon
Will the Minister accept that the unanimous condemnation by all the parties in Stormont shows that dissidents of all traditions might have the power to damage the peace process but not to derail it?
Mr Paterson
I am happy to concur wholeheartedly with the hon. Lady’s comment. Northern Ireland has moved on by a huge distance, and everyone can now express their legitimate political aims and pursue them by democratic means. There is absolutely no place for political violence in Northern Ireland today.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
On behalf of the whole House, may I congratulate the Minister of State on his upgrading of my right hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward) to his new role of Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? I am not entirely sure whether that was a prediction, but it is certainly one that we would support. Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), the Secretary of State will be aware that even below the most placid surface, dark cold undercurrents flow, and that we have to address the issue of the sectarian legacy. What is he doing to support groups such as Co-operation Ireland and other peace-builders?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to the shadow Minister, who is on perky form this morning. I have regular meetings with the chairman of Co-operation Ireland; I am actually seeing him again today. However, dealing with community groups is very much in local hands. I have had recent discussions with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and I am seeing both of them again tomorrow. This is very much a local issue to be sorted out on the ground according to local circumstances. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber. We need to be able to hear the Secretary of State.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Given the ease with which guns were produced at the Short Strand interface, does the Secretary of State understand the annoyance and anger at the fact that the inventory of the weapons destroyed by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning was not made known? Does he agree that the people of Northern Ireland have a right to know the full extent of the destruction of weaponry that has taken place? The Conservatives and Labour have agreed on that, and the inventory has also been lodged in Washington.
Mr Paterson
I am fully aware of the concerns behind the hon. Gentleman’s question, but we have to take the advice of those very experienced independent professionals, who have pulled off an extraordinary task. I pay tribute to General de Chastelain and his colleagues for what they did, and if it is their professional opinion today that it would not be helpful to publish that inventory, we have to take that advice seriously, as do the Irish Government. That is why the inventory has been placed with the American Secretary of State, where it will rest. No one will see it until the British and Irish Governments together decide that the time is appropriate.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
9. What assessment he has made of the effect on economic growth in Northern Ireland of reductions in public expenditure.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
As I said earlier to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), tackling the deficit has to be the Government’s biggest priority, and Northern Ireland must play its part. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working with Northern Ireland Ministers to attract growth and investment and to help rebalance the economy.
Toby Perkins
Northern Bank’s quarterly economic forecast states that Northern Ireland’s construction sector has hit a new low and is facing its fourth year of decline. It has already suffered some of the worst job losses anywhere in the country. Do the 10,000 people who could now lose their jobs, on top of those who have already done so, have any cause for optimism, given the complacency that the Minister showed in his earlier answer?
Mr Swire
I do not think that I showed complacency in my earlier answer. We are fully aware of the effect of the recession on the construction industry not only in Northern Ireland but in the whole of the United Kingdom. It has had a real effect in many of the border areas where people used to go down to the building sites of Dublin and earn their money that way. That is a serious issue for all kinds of reasons. The fact that we came to the aid of the Republic of Ireland has allowed us to have far greater involvement in its investment decisions affecting Northern Ireland, not least those of the banks, as well as in other issues of mutual interest.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Does the Minister agree that air passenger duty is helping to strangle economic recovery in Northern Ireland? Does he have any plans to persuade the Treasury to make changes to it?
Mr Swire
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been a consultation process on air passenger duty, which is continuing, and we have discussed the issue with the Finance Minister at Stormont. These are issues that we take very seriously, not least in respect of what I describe as the economic umbilical cord—the link to New York by Continental airlines. We are keen to see that continue. A number of companies, including the New York stock exchange, came to invest in Northern Ireland because of that air route. As I say, we are taking this extremely seriously and we are batting for Northern Ireland.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
10. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on the level of cross-border human trafficking to and from Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Data on the exact level of cross-border trafficking is not available, but there is clearly a cross-border element in many cases. I spoke yesterday to the Northern Ireland justice Minister and I know that he has been working closely with authorities in the Republic of Ireland to tackle this despicable crime.
Mr Bone
I thank the Minister for his response. People are being trafficked across the border with bogus papers. Unfortunately, they are being trafficked from this country into the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is discovering trafficked people whose papers are so obviously bogus that they should never have been admitted to the United Kingdom in the first place. This is an issue that we really need to look at.
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. The Minister for Immigration is working closely with his counterparts in the Irish Republic to ensure that we jointly strengthen our external borders against threats such as human trafficking gangs. I would like briefly to pay tribute, if I may, to my hon. Friend’s work on the all-party group and, indeed, to that of our former colleague, Anthony Steen and the Human Trafficking Foundation, which I hope to accompany to Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend has much to add to the debate. [Interruption.]
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ease with which cross-border trafficking between Northern Ireland and the Republic can occur is quite obvious and apparent to everyone. Will the Minister ensure that liaison with the Republic of Ireland’s authorities is stepped up to ensure that those who are being trafficked can be helped, given the problems that they are facing?
Mr Swire
We all want to hear the hon. Gentleman—I hope others heard him better than I did. The little that I heard was about cross-border co-operation. I can assure him that we have had some recent successes in Northern Ireland, as he will have seen from the newspapers. We work extremely closely with the authorities in the Republic. This is an issue that affects us all. It is a despicable thing, and I draw the attention of all Members to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s report “Forced labour in Northern Ireland”, which has recently come out and bears reading.
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
11. What recent assessment he has made of the Northern Ireland economy.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
Northern Ireland is an excellent place to do business and enjoys world-class aerospace, engineering and health technology companies, but the Northern Ireland economy is still too over-reliant on the public sector, so we are working together with the Northern Ireland Executive to help rebalance it and to boost private sector growth.
Mr Holloway
Will my right hon. Friend ensure that internal squabbles in the Assembly do not undermine the consultation?
Mr Paterson
I am delighted to report that the consultation, which ends on Friday, has received the overwhelming endorsement of all five political parties. The leaders in the Executive came to Kelvatek for the launch of that very successful consultation. My right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been to Northern Ireland to see what is happening for themselves—as has my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary, who is going again tomorrow—and we will respond in the autumn.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State agree that if the Northern Ireland economy is to be helped through the devolution of corporation tax, that must come at a fair, reasonable and acceptable price rather than a price that is detrimental to economic growth?
Mr Paterson
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Treasury document makes it clear that every 2.5% reduction in corporation tax requires a £60 million to £90 million reduction in the block grant. That constitutes 0.5% of the block grant, which many economists and businesses consider to be a very modest investment.
Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 6 July.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Highlander Scott McLaren of The Highlanders, 4th Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Scotland. This week I witnessed at first hand the sacrifice of our soldiers. I pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of this particular soldier, who was lost in such tragic circumstances. Our thoughts will rightly be with his family and his friends at this very sad time, but we pay tribute to him and all those like him who serve our country so magnificently in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Mr Campbell
I echo the sentiments that the Prime Minister has expressed. As a father whose son is serving in the Royal Marines and doing his duty in Afghanistan, I can tell the House that those in my position dread the knock on the door saying that their son has been lost in action. Our sympathies obviously go to Scott’s father, mother and family at this time.
Is it right that yesterday we gave £10 billion to the bail-out of the banks in Greece, that we gave £7 billion to the bail-out in Ireland, and that we—the British taxpayers—give £100 billion a year to the banks in this country for insurance and other purposes? Why does the Prime Minister not get on his bike, go down to see his friends in the City, and sack a few spivs and speculators and bankers—
Mr Speaker
Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We have got the gist.
The Prime Minister
Let me say first that it is this Government who have imposed a levy on the banks so that they pay more every year than they paid in bankers’ bonus tax under the last Government. As for Greece, I kept us out of a European bail-out, and as for Ireland, its economy is so close and so integrated with ours that it is right for us to give it support. That, I think, is the right approach, but this Government are being tough in ensuring that the banks pay their fair share.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Q2. Severe droughts, conflicts and food prices have combined viciously in the horn of Africa, creating desperate hunger and threatening the lives of millions. Given that aid agencies are short of funds, what are the Government doing to help?
The Prime Minister
As ever, the Department for International Development is being extremely effective. It is working very quickly to try to help in this appalling crisis, in which 10 million people face the threat of starvation. That demonstrates once again that we are right to maintain and increase our spending in this area, difficult as the arguments sometimes are. Our difficulties here and elsewhere in Europe are nothing in comparison with what is being experienced by people who face starvation and death unless we help them.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Highlander Scott McLaren of The Highlanders, 4th Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Scotland? He was a young man who was serving our country, and died in the most horrific circumstances. I am sure the thoughts of the whole House are with his family and friends.
The whole country has been appalled by the disclosures about phone hacking: the 7/7 victims, the parents of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, and, of course, the phone of Milly Dowler. That anyone could hack into her phone, listen to her family’s frantic messages and delete them, giving false hope to the parents, is immoral and a disgrace. Given the gravity of what has occurred, will the Prime Minister support the calls for a full, independent public inquiry to take place as soon as practical into the culture and practices of British newspapers?
The Prime Minister
Let me be very clear: yes, we do need to have an inquiry—possibly inquiries—into what has happened. We are no longer talking about politicians and celebrities; we are talking about murder victims—potentially terrorist victims—having their phones hacked into. What has taken place is absolutely disgusting, and I think everyone in this House, and indeed this country, will be revolted by what they have heard and seen on their television screens.
Let me make a couple of points. First—people need to know this—a major police investigation is under way. It is one of the biggest police investigations currently under way in our country, and crucially—I hope Opposition Members will listen to this—it does not involve police officers who were involved in the original investigation that so clearly did not get to the truth. It is important that we have inquiries: inquiries that are public; inquiries that are independent; and inquiries that have public confidence.
It seems to me that there are two vital issues that we need to look into. The first is the original police inquiry and why that did not get to the bottom of what has happened, and the second is the behaviour of individual people and individual media organisations and, as the right hon. Gentleman says, a wider look into media practices and ethics in this country. Clearly, as he says, we cannot start that sort of inquiry immediately because we must not jeopardise the police investigation, but it may be possible to start some of that work earlier. I am very happy to discuss this with him, with other party leaders, and with the Attorney-General and the Cabinet Secretary, to make sure that we get this right and lessons are learned from what has become a disgraceful episode.
Edward Miliband
Let me say to the Prime Minister that I am encouraged that he does now recognise the need for a full public inquiry into what happened. He is right to say that it can be fully completed only after the police investigation has taken its course, but, as he also said, that may take some years. It is possible, as I think he implied, for the Prime Minister to start the process now, so may I make some suggestions in that context? He should immediately appoint a senior figure, potentially a judge, to lead this inquiry, make it clear that it will have the power to call witnesses under oath, and establish clear terms of reference covering a number of key issues: the culture and practices of the industry; the nature of regulation, which is absolutely crucial; and the relationship between the police and the media. I wonder whether he can respond on those points.
The Prime Minister
I want to respond positively, and let me do so. First, on the two issues I mentioned—the conduct of the earlier police inquiry and the broader lessons about ethics in the media—I do not think it is possible to start any form of investigation into the former until the police investigation is completed, because I think there would be a danger of jeopardising the current police inquiry. Responding positively to what the right hon. Gentleman said, I do think it may be possible to make a start on other elements, and, as I have said, I do not want us to rush this decision; I want us to get it right, having discussed it with other party leaders, the Attorney-General and the Cabinet Secretary. All too often, these sorts of inquiries can be set up too quickly without thinking through what actually needs to be done.
Edward Miliband
I think the Prime Minister is implying that this can start moving now, and I think it is very important that it does so; just because we cannot do everything does not mean we cannot do anything. It is very important that we act. A year ago to the day, the Prime Minister appointed the Gibson inquiry to look into the treatment of detainees by the intelligence services, with criminal cases still pending.
Let me ask the Prime Minister about what happens in the meantime, pending this public inquiry. We have consistently said that the BSkyB bid should be referred to the Competition Commission and not dealt with in the way the Culture Secretary has done. The Prime Minister must realise that the public will react with disbelief if next week the decision is taken to go ahead with this deal at a time when News International is subject to a major criminal investigation and we do not yet know who charges will be laid against. Does the Prime Minister agree that the BSkyB bid should now be referred to the Competition Commission, to provide the breathing space that is required?
The Prime Minister
First, let me answer the right hon. Gentleman’s point about Gibson, because this is a good and fair point. We established the Gibson inquiry but it has not been able to make much progress until criminal proceedings have been brought to an end. There is a good reason for this; clearly you do not want to jeopardise a police operation, and you do so if you start questioning witnesses through a public inquiry process at the same time as they are being questioned through a police process. That is the reason for doing this, but, believe me, I want us to get on with this issue, and the faster we can set up other elements of an inquiry, the happier I will be.
On the issue of BSkyB, what we have done is follow, absolutely to the letter, the correct legal processes. That is what the Government have to do. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has a quasi-judicial role and he has to follow that. I note that the leader of the Labour party said yesterday that the issue of competition and plurality is “a separate issue” from the very important issue we are discussing today. What I would say is that these processes must be followed properly, including by Ofcom, and it is Ofcom that has the duty to make a recommendation about a “fit and proper person”. Those are the right processes; this Government will behave in a proper way.
Edward Miliband
I am afraid that that answer was out of touch with millions of people up and down this country. The public will not accept the idea that, with this scandal engulfing the News of the World and News International, the Government should, in the coming days be making a decision outside the normal processes, for them to take control of one of the biggest media organisations in the country. I know that this is difficult for the Prime Minister, but I strongly urge him to think again and send this decision to the proper authorities—the Competition Commission. As I say, this would provide breathing space for legitimacy and for the proper decisions to be made.
The Prime Minister
I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that the decision making has been through the proper processes, that it is right that the Government act legally in every way and that that is what they have done. One of these is an issue about morality and ethics, and a police investigation that needs to be carried out in the proper way—they have total independence and must do that. The other is an issue about plurality and competition, where we have to act under the law. Those are the words he used yesterday and, in just 24 hours, he has done a U-turn in order to try to look good in the Commons.
Edward Miliband
This is not the time for technicalities or low blows. We have said consistently, throughout this process, that this bid should be referred to the Competition Commission—that is the right way forward. The Prime Minister, instead of engaging in technicalities, should speak for the country on this issue, because this is what people want him to do. I hope that he will go off from this Question Time and think again, because it is in the interests of the media industry and the British public that this is properly referred to the Competition Commission in the way that all other bids are dealt with.
What we also know, as well as that we need a public inquiry and that we need the BSkyB bid referred to the Competition Commission, is that these were not the actions of a rogue individual or a rogue reporter, but part of a wider, systematic pattern of abuses. The public see a major news organisation in this country where no one appears prepared to take responsibility for what happens. Nobody is denying that Milly Dowler’s phone was hacked and nobody is denying that it happened on the watch of the current chief executive of News International, who was editor of the newspaper at the time. Will the Prime Minister join me—if he believes in people taking responsibility—in saying that she should take responsibility and consider her position?
The Prime Minister
First, let me deal with the issue of technicalities. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that when you are dealing with the law, you have to look at the technicalities because there is something called due process that you have to follow. That is necessary for any Government and I am sure that he understands that. As for News International, everyone at News International must ask themselves some pretty searching questions and everyone at News International is subject to one of the largest police investigations under way in this country. I think that we should let the police do their work. They must follow the evidence wherever it leads and if they find people guilty of wrongdoing, they should have no hesitation in ensuring that they are prosecuted.
Edward Miliband
I do not know from that answer whether the Prime Minister says that the chief executive of News International should stand down or not. I am clear: she should take responsibility and stand down. These events show a systematic set of abuses that demonstrates the use of power without responsibility in our country and it is in the interests of our democracy and the public that such issues are sorted out. With the biggest press scandal in modern times getting worse by the day, I am afraid the Prime Minister has not shown the necessary leadership today. He has not shown the necessary leadership on BSkyB or on News International. Is it not the case that if the public are to have confidence in him, he must do the thing that is most difficult and accept that he made a catastrophic judgment in bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his Downing street machine? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the Prime Minister, but the Prime Minister should not have to shout to be heard and neither, for that matter, should the Leader of the Opposition. It is thoroughly disorderly and the Prime Minister will now be heard.
The Prime Minister
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I take full responsibility for everyone I employ and everyone I appoint and I take responsibility for everything my Government do. What this Government are doing is making sure—the public and I feel appalled by what has happened, and the fact that murder victims and terrorist victims have had their phones hacked is quite disgraceful. That is why it is important that there is a full police investigation with all the powers the police need. That is why it is important that we have those inquiries to get to the bottom of what went wrong and the lessons that need to be learned. That is why we also need to inquire as to how we can improve the ethics and morals of the press in this country and ensure that they improve for the future. That is what needs to be done, that is what the Government are doing and we do not need to take lectures from the right hon. Gentleman about it.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
Q3. Year 9 pupils at Limehurst high school in my constituency have joined hundreds of other pupils to work on the “Send my Sister to School” campaign. Will the Prime Minister add his support to this cause and should not this campaign remind us that good education, here or overseas, transforms children’s lives and their life chances?
The Prime Minister
I am delighted to welcome the campaign that my hon. Friend mentions and her personal support for it. The fact is that across our world 39 million girls are out of school and even if they are in school, the gender gaps we still see are appalling. We in the UK, through our aid budget, are securing schooling for 11 million children by 2015. That is more than we educate in the UK, but we will be able to do it at 2.5% of the cost. This is a good investment for Britain and for British taxpayers that will ensure that we reduce inequality in our world.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Q4. Will the Prime Minister explain whether he thinks that the cost of his NHS reforms, which are set to rise even further—as we now know thanks to the revelation that a new super-quango will be created in the NHS—might be partly responsible for the funding squeeze affecting health services in Harrow? That has put at particular risk services at the popular Alexandra avenue polyclinic in my constituency.
The Prime Minister
What we have seen since this Government have taken office is more than 2,000 more doctors but 4,000 fewer managers. We are cutting bureaucracy by a third—[Interruption.] I know they do not like to hear it, but if we had followed their plans and cut NHS spending, the number of doctors, nurses and operations would be going down. Just this morning, we have seen the figures for the number of diagnostic tests in the UK going up. That is because of the investment that is going in under this Government.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Q6. The Prime Minister will be aware of the news this morning that Portugal’s debt has been downgraded to junk status. Does he not agree that it is a warning to every Member of this House that we cannot put off difficult decisions and that the only plan B is bankruptcy?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right: plan B stands for bankruptcy. We can see what happens if Governments do not get a grip of their debt and their deficit. That is what this Government are doing, but the Labour party has learnt nothing.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Q7. Does the Prime Minister agree that the maximum sentence for the offence of dangerous driving does not properly reflect the potential harm caused to victims, some of whom are left paralysed and brain-damaged? Will he support me and Labour Front Benchers in moves to increase the maximum sentence to seven years?
The Prime Minister
I know that the hon. Gentleman speaks with great personal knowledge about this not just because of a constituency case that he wrote to me about but because of his work as a barrister before he came to this place. I do believe there is a problem when there is a high sentence, rightly, for causing death by dangerous driving, but only this two-year sentence in cases such as the one he brought to my attention in which someone was damaged permanently for life, and yet the maximum sentence was two years. In our Sentencing (Reform) Bill we are looking at this issue and we hope to make some progress.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree with me that the alleged bail-out mentioned by the Opposition of £10 billion is not that and that if we are not in the IMF we will not be a global player? Does he also agree that the Opposition need reminding that in the 1970s the IMF bailed out their Government?
Mr Speaker
I know that the Prime Minister will want to deal with the first part of the question, but not the second part because it was disorderly.
The Prime Minister
I absolutely agree with what my hon. Friend said. It was remarkable yesterday that the Labour party put itself in the position of opposing our involvement in the IMF. Britain is a serious global economy and we should take responsibility for serious global issues, including through the IMF.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Q8. Does the Prime Minister agree that details of all the weapons and explosives decommissioned in Northern Ireland should be made public as promised? Will he agree to have negotiations with the Irish Government to move forward to the Americans to see that that happens?
The Prime Minister
The point is that the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning did not provide us with an inventory. It was an independent body and that was a decision for it to take—difficult as I know that is. It stated:
“We would not wish, inadvertently, to discourage future decommissioning events by groups that are actively engaged today, nor to deter groups that have decommissioned their arms from handing over any arms that may subsequently come to light”.
This is difficult and we are all having to do difficult things, in Northern Ireland as elsewhere in the world, in order to bring conflict to an end and keep conflict at an end. That is what the independent commission’s report was doing.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
Is not the real issue about delaying an inquiry that the public have little confidence in the Metropolitan police where investigations concerning News International are concerned? May I remind the Prime Minister of the question I asked him on 27 April about whether he would have
“a full judicial inquiry and, in particular, look at the relationship between the Metropolitan police and News International?”—[Official Report, 27 April 2011; Vol. 527, c. 168.]
The Prime Minister
Clearly, this is a very important issue. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has discussed it with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner this morning and they want to continue with the investigation that is under way. But let me try to reassure the House and the hon. Gentleman about this because even before we get to the point about independent and public inquiries, what the public need to know is that the police are going to go about their job properly in this investigation, so they do need to know that this is an investigation completely separate from the previous investigation. As it stands today, it is one of the largest police investigations going on anywhere in our country.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
Q9. Victims of knife crime in London have increased by more than 8% in the past three months. On the streets of London we have children carrying knives and other children afraid of the journey to and from school. Last Friday, on a busy shopping parade, a 16-year-old constituent of mine was stabbed to death. Two children have been arrested in connection with that. What will the Prime Minister do to ensure that the Mayor of London gets a grip on this problem, which was one of both the Mayor’s and the Prime Minister’s election promises?
The Prime Minister
The case that the hon. Lady raises is an absolutely tragic one and there are still too many victims of knife crime, particularly among young people in our cities and particularly in London. What we are doing is creating a new offence with a mandatory prison sentence to send a very clear message to those who carry knives. The offence will apply to those with a knife who threaten and endanger others in a public place. That will send a clear message to those who possess a knife that if they threaten anyone, they will go to jail.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that those who pay back early their student loans are doing the right thing and should be encouraged? If so, how is that consistent with the Government’s policy, which is apparently one of discouraging people from paying back early, and indeed of penalising them for early repayment of student loans?
The Prime Minister
I urge my hon. Friend to look carefully at the detail of our proposals. We want a progressive system in which people who earn more pay back more, which is why nobody pays anything until they earn £21,000, and people do not start to pay back in full until they earn £35,000. We propose that people who pay back, say, £3,000 a year in earnings should not be discouraged, because in many ways that is the right thing to do.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
Q10. In opposition, the Prime Minister made it clear that Hizb ut-Tahrir should be banned, but last week he fell back on exactly the same explanations that he refused to accept when they were given to him by the previous Prime Minister. What has changed?
The Prime Minister
We have banned the Tehrik-e-Taliban—we have taken action. As my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor will hastily testify, it is endlessly frustrating that we are subject to so many legal requirements, but I am afraid that we have to be a Government under the law. [Interruption.]
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Q11. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given that the Olympics and the diamond jubilee will take place next year, is the Prime Minister aware that immigration and special branch officers at Stansted airport are concerned that the common travel area channel in its current form allows illegal migrants, Islamists and terrorists into the country without their passports being checked? Will he take urgent steps to close that loophole immediately?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Passport-free travel between the UK, the Crown dependencies and the Republic of Ireland has been in place for many years, and it offers real economic and social benefits. I accept that those routes can be open to abuse, and we are determined to resolve that. The UK Border Agency is working closely with Ireland and others to make sure that that happens, but we want to try to do so without disadvantaging people who have been able to take advantage of that common travel area up to now.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
Q12. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions have both said that British employers should employ British workers, so will the Prime Minister stop the Department for Work and Pensions offshoring existing jobs in North Tyneside to Bangalore?
The Prime Minister
Of course I will look closely at the case that the hon. Lady makes, but every Government—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I want to hear the Prime Minister’s answer, and so does the House.
The Prime Minister
We need to make sure that our welfare reforms encourage those people who sit on welfare and who could work actually to go out to work. Under the Labour Government, yes, we had economic growth, but there were 5 million working-age people living on benefits. That is not good enough, and we are going to change it.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
Q13. Does the Prime Minister agree that birthing centres in rural areas provide a valuable and irreplaceable service to the local community, and every effort should be made to retain them—a message that hundreds of my constituents and I are sending to Derbyshire County NHS as it considers the future of the Corbar birthing centre in my constituency of High Peak?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We want to see maternity networks so that mums can make a choice about where they give birth, whether in a community setting, midwife-led, or whether in a district general hospital with all the paraphernalia of consultants and the rest of it. It should be a choice made by them with their GP and others on what is right for their needs.
Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab)
Is the Prime Minister aware that yesterday, when Bombardier had to announce the redundancy, among others, of skilled engineers and designers, the company made public for the first time the fact that it had offered to establish a new academy in this country for the design and manufacture of cars for the next generation of high-speed trains for the UK and across the world—a global centre of excellence, providing more jobs and jobs with even higher skills. He will not have had time to familiarise himself with the details, but will he undertake to look into that with care to give substance to the commitment that he made in my constituency to British manufacturers?
The Prime Minister
I will look carefully at what the right hon. Lady has said about this issue. I want to see more British jobs in manufacturing as, indeed, we are seeing across the country. In the case of the Bombardier train contract, the procurement process was designed and initiated by the Government of whom she was a member. We are bound by the criteria that they set out, so we have to continue with the decision that has been made according to those criteria. Separately, we are setting out to ask what more we can do under the rules to make sure that we boost manufacturing and not have situations like this in future.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Q14. Twelve days ago a young constituent of mine was the victim of a vicious knife attack. Last weekend another 16-year-old young man was also the victim of a knife attack. Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning this upsurge in gang-related violence and confirm that those who carry knives will face a custodial sentence if apprehended?
The Prime Minister
As I said to the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), it is important that we send a clear message about this. We are doing that with the new offence which carries a mandatory sentence. That is a signal to anyone who is contemplating carrying a knife, but we should be frank with ourselves in the House and in the country that purely looking at the issue from a criminal justice perspective is not the answer. We have to ask ourselves why so many young children are joining gangs, and why our families and communities are not doing more to keep them close and prevent the carrying of knives. That is something that runs right across Government and across our society as well.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
It is simply not the case, as the Prime Minister claimed earlier, that the Government have followed the normal process in relation to the News Corp takeover of BSkyB. Why does he believe that the assurances that News Corp executives have given are any more credible than the assurances they gave over phone hacking?
The Prime Minister
The point is that we have followed the correct legal processes. If you do not follow the correct legal processes, you will be judicially reviewed, and all the decisions that you would like to make from a political point of view will be struck down in the courts. You would look pretty for a day, but useless for a week. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. If the House can overcome its collective mirth, it will give a hearing to Mr Ian Swales.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Last Friday I visited Grangetown school in my constituency, which is the 17th most deprived primary school in the country. Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the school and community on their work to convert an area of demolished houses into a school playing field, and will he ensure that the Government continue their pupil premium policy to support the school’s excellent work?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the support that he is showing to his local primary schools. I believe that the pupil premium, which will pump billions extra into education, particularly for the most deprived children in the most deprived parts of our country—[Interruption.] It will make a huge difference to our schools. For all the noise from the Opposition, they had 13 years to introduce a pupil premium. What did we get? Absolutely nothing.