Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Wednesday 10th June 2026

(began 2 hours, 15 minutes ago)

Share Debate

Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution

15:14

Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)

- -

this scheme is to speed up the asylum process, to get people's decisions made quickly so that individuals can know whether they have a long term future in the United Kingdom, or they don't. And the right to work, in my view, is one that should be at the end of that process, not during it. We

**** Possible New Speaker ****

need to complete the process as quickly and speedily as possible. Lord, I cautiously welcome the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lord, I cautiously welcome the increase to 42 days. Though those on the ground do warn that the 56 on the ground do warn that the 56 days which are piloted are needed to ensure refugees can move on from Home Office support successfully. And if the 42 days is to work in order to avoid the confusion order to avoid the confusion reported in the evaluation is essential that new refugees receive all the necessary documentation to access accommodation, etc. before the clock starts ticking on the move on period.

Can my noble friend commit to making sure that this happens? Please?

15:15

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, that that is the intention. And again, what we what we're trying to do throughout all of this trying to do throughout all of this process is to ensure that asylum claims are speedily dealt with as quickly as possible, and that the quickly as possible, and that the points that my noble friend has mentioned are relevant. And that, again, goes back to the point I mentioned to the noble Lord earlier that we have put in place asylum. Move on. Liaison officers in 59 local authorities across the United Kingdom who are working alongside migrant help to support individuals who will be leaving asylum accommodation and ensure a successful transition.

It's in the interests of all parties to ensure that people transit, move out of the transition through the housing procedure as soon as possible and as efficiently as possible.

15:15

Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)

- -

The government, of course, talks >> The government, of course, talks up the number of illegal migrants and failed asylum seekers. They have returned, but the Minister have returned, but the Minister knows that the number of enforced returns, those people that the Home Office forcibly deport was only 9700 and a small number in the grand scheme of the scale of the problem. So given the significant number of people who are living in Britain illegally, what action is the government taking this year to ramp up deportation of those who have no right to be here?

15:16

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, let me just say, the noble Lord and his government had jurisdiction over these matters for jurisdiction over these matters for 14 years. The issue rose. The number of asylum seekers rose, the processing fell, the number of hotels increased, the number of deportations fell, and the number of criminal justice activities increased. So I say to the noble Lord quite clearly, I'll say to the noble Lord, now the position now is better than it was when he left office. There are further deportations, more deportations than before.

There are more hotel closures. There are fewer asylum applications. They're being dealt with more speedily. And I will defend that record in front of this house and in front of him on every day of the week.

15:17

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (Crossbench)

- -

The crossbench. >> The crossbench. >> Reverting to reverting to Lady Lister's question if the person Lister's question if the person granted asylum has only 42 days to navigate the housing, the navigate the housing, the employment, the markets, to get himself a bank account to get registered for Universal Credit, we need to help him by giving him all the documentation he'll need for that from the start. 18 months ago, the noble Lord, the Minister told us on on Lady Lister's bill debate told us that digital status existed from the moment that asylum was granted.

Couldn't it be communicated at that moment with all the other necessary documentation, including the National Insurance number straight away, day zero?

15:17

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, I'll certainly look into >> Well, I'll certainly look into the points that the noble Lord has mentioned. I can say to him now that most e-visas are accessible within minutes of a grant. In a within minutes of a grant. In a small number of cases, some will take up to three days as set out on take up to three days as set out on government.uk. But we hope again to try to ensure that we speed up this issue. We get the proper documentation, we allow people to have that transitional period when the asylum position is determined, and we also need to ensure that the the 42 days, as has been said, generally provides for a smooth transition to whatever happens next to the individual.

But I'll

**** Possible New Speaker ****

certainly look into the point. The noble Lord has mentioned. Second Oral Question Lord Farmer.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Second Oral Question Lord Farmer. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and in the meantime Order Paper, and in the meantime also declare my interests as co-founder of the family not for

15:18

Oral questions: Best Start Family Hubs: support for families with children and young adults requiring special educational needs and disabilities

profit Family Hubs Network Limited. Yes. >> My Lords, we are investing over

15:18

Lord Farmer (Conservative)

- -

>> My Lords, we are investing over £900 million in the Best Start Family Hubs and healthy babies programmes with an ambition for a

15:18

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

thousand hubs by 2028. New guidance published on 30th March outlines published on 30th March outlines delivery expectations. Whilst there will be a focus on pregnancy and the early years, hubs will also welcome all families with older children up to the age of 19 or 25. children up to the age of 19 or 25. For those with special educational needs and disabilities, providing a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

universal offer for all. I thank the Minister for that reply. Family hubs are not sure start rebranded. They are also a

15:19

Lord Farmer (Conservative)

- -

multitude of problems affecting families with older children. Yet all that's ever talked about, in my all that's ever talked about, in my opinion, is the early years. Hubs need to support parents of need to support parents of teenagers to prevent them becoming and staying Neet. Alan Milburn report repeatedly in various paragraphs, highlights why families are not a peripheral influence, but are not a peripheral influence, but central. Also, Josh McAllister's review found teenagers are the last largest growing cohort in child protection and care.

What evidence can the Minister provide of family hubs outcomes in supporting parents with teenagers, and which local authorities are doing particularly well?

15:20

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

I do recognise the noble Lords real commitment in this area and his work over the years. I just want to stress there are good examples of hubs providing support for families with teenagers such as in Coventry, for example, who brought together over 400 young people and 65 partner organisations to facilitate access to services. We are talking about transformation here. We're not talking about the old, the older models. We're moving forward and I agree with the noble Lord that evidence of outcomes is important, though that does take time to come through.

As the recent report has shown, we are committed to evaluating the programme fully and we are programme procuring for that now.

15:21

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

- -

My Lord. >> The family hubs, particularly the support for young people 5 to 19 or up to 25 with special 19 or up to 25 with special educational needs. One of the issues we always have around these initiatives, my Lords, is the consistency of delivery and what is often referred to as postcode lottery. So how could the Minister assure us how we're going to get consistency of delivery? So every young person, no matter where they live in the country, gets the support they need? Yeah, yeah.

15:21

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

Of course, the noble Lord raises >> Of course, the noble Lord raises a very important point. And that's why the programme is committed to why the programme is committed to initially providing a hub within every local authority, expanding over the next two years to a over the next two years to a thousand hubs opening, recognising that the diversity of need and recognising that local areas will want to move the program forward. But there is very clear guidance and there is a very clear expectation that every area will report in around the outcomes that they achieve, making sure that we drive forward that real desire for consistency that he outlines.

15:22

Baroness Bousted (Labour)

- -

Over my Lord Eatwell in office, the party opposite oversaw an the party opposite oversaw an exponential rise in child poverty. It abolished Surestart, the most successful programme which improved successful programme which improved children's physical and mental health, boosted their educational attainment and reduced serious youth crime. It also imposed a child benefit limit which condemned children to poverty. This

**** Possible New Speaker ****

government has abolished the two child limit and introduced best legacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would the Minister agree that this is the right way to reduce child poverty rather than to ignore

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. I'm tempted to just simple

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I'm tempted to just simple straight. Yes. My noble friend speaks absolute sense on this

15:22

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

speaks absolute sense on this agenda. And I just want to highlight the devastation to provision that she outlines. Between 2010 and 2022, 1300 Surestart centres closed by 2024, 1 in 3 low income families had no access to children's centres at all. And as she says, poverty soared and school readiness flatlined. I am delighted that this government is making this one of its top priorities and I look forward to the outcomes, the benefits to families very soon.

15:23

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

- -

Lord, Lord Lords, this side, my Lords. Very well. It's a word of power in Leeds under the guidance of the wonderful Secretary, Ann Hart, for many, many years, bringing together able bodied people with those with disabilities and disadvantages which she support me in. In both congratulating Ann and that organisation, which I know she supports as well, but also the whole question of bringing people together who are are in good health, but those who have disabilities and making them work together for the benefit of both.

15:24

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

I'm delighted to hear the the >> I'm delighted to hear the the noble Lord reference and and the brilliant work that has been done for many, many years. I think the for many, many years. I think the whole principle of surestart was the whole of the universal approach, bringing all sorts of people together and not just focusing on one sector, everyone at different stages in their lives need support and everyone has something to offer. And I think it's that interchange and support that you get through this type of provision that makes a huge difference to people's lives.

15:24

Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)

- -

My Lords, my Lords, the best, the Best Start Family Hubs, I think, the Best Start Family Hubs, I think, offer an opportunity for very positive progress. But if we were to provide the most assistance to families, particularly those with Sen children, it requires an integrated and holistic approach from government. So could the Minister outline how the family hubs will integrate with the government's proposed reforms to send, and also its response to the Milburn report, so that we have an integrated, joined up approach in terms of our support for families.

15:25

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

I probably don't have enough time, in my short answer to to go time, in my short answer to to go into all of the initiatives, but just to reassure noble Lords that every Best Start Family Hub will every Best Start Family Hub will have a Best Start inclusion practitioner, there's an enormous amount of resource going in to make sure that the training is there, that the links can be made. But I think the fundamental point that the noble Lord makes, which we absolutely endorse, is that there needs to be very strong local linkages, bringing together all of the different services who work with young people and their families to make sure that we get the very best provision at the earliest possible opportunity to improve their outcomes.

15:26

Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative)

- -

The test of. >> A family hub is not how many open, but whether children are connected to the right opportunities. The Department for Education's own guidance includes a minimum expectation that families whose young people who are not in education, employment or training be connected to targeted support to ensure parents are part of the solution. To what extent is this happening and will the government improve reporting to increase accountability? Yeah.

15:26

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

I think improved reporting is is a is is a mission for all of us. a is is a mission for all of us. But most of all, it's so important to collect the data and as she suggests and make sure that we use suggests and make sure that we use it. Running alongside the family Hub model is the Youth Matters programme. But I think the most important thing around this agenda is to make sure that young people have a say and a voice.

They design the services in their local areas that are fit for purpose. And of course, families, the wider families have a real role in this. We are facing a million young people who are in need, and I know the noble Lady recognises that the policy over the last years of the last government contributed to that. We are determined to work with those young people to make sure they can take advantage of all the opportunities we're creating.

15:27

Baroness Deech (Crossbench)

- -

Noble Lady. The Minister wants to lift children out of poverty. Why then, has she not Why then, has she not enthusiastically accepted the recommendations of the Public Services Committee about reforming the Child Maintenance Service, which currently is letting hundreds of thousands of fathers get away with paying nothing, hiding their assets, not having their obligations enforced when they have a legal and moral responsibility to support their children. And this has gone on for years. She has the power to move this forward.

15:28

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

Yes I can. I congratulate the noble Lady in taking the opportunity to bring one of her opportunity to bring one of her real passions into this broader debate. I, of course, we understand debate. I, of course, we understand the problems, but I have to say this is for other departments are picking this up and are taking it forward, and I wouldn't like to comment further at this stage either.

15:28

Baroness Hyde of Bemerton (Labour)

- -

My Lords. >> Friend the Minister, please. >> Explain how the government will ensure that these brilliant hubs reach and build trust with all women. I'm thinking, for example, of women who are the victims of domestic abuse, women with poor mental health, and women who have encountered the criminal justice encountered the criminal justice system. And will the Minister look at how women's centres might close this gap?

15:28

Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)

- -

Well, I'm very happy to have a discussion with the noble Lady, but discussion with the noble Lady, but I would just caution that, of course, family hubs will be working with all those with care for with all those with care for children and young people, including fathers, when we have to make sure that the environment in those hubs is supportive and picking up on all of the issues that she has raised. From my own experience of working with Surestart, one of the most powerful things that we saw was women disclosing for the first time that they were being subjected to domestic violence, to other women within their peer group, not having to go to through any agency or any professional, but getting that support and then being signposted to the support that they need.

15:29

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

- -

Third Oral Question Baroness >> Third Oral Question Baroness McIntosh of Pickering. >> To ask the question, standing in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

my name on the Order Paper. My Lords supporting British farmers and boosting the nation's farmers and boosting the nation's food security are key priorities. Our reformed SFI offer will open

15:29

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

later this month, and our Elm Capital Grants offer opens next month. We will continue to work with stakeholders through the new Farming and Food Partnership Board, Farming and Food Partnership Board, and we will publish our response to the Farming Profitability Review and our 25 year farming roadmap and our 25 year farming roadmap later this year, and that will set out the government's long term vision for farming.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

vision for farming. I'm grateful to the noble Lady for for that reply. But of course, environmental schemes do not put

15:30

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

- -

food on the table. Will she take this opportunity to set out how the government intends to put the focus government intends to put the focus back onto food production and farming, in particular, to boost farming, in particular, to boost the productivity of farms in the uplands and tenanted farms? And uplands and tenanted farms? And what specific measures are she intending to take to boost the food security and self-sufficiency so security and self-sufficiency so desperately needed at home, and the ability of our farmers to compete internationally away from home?

15:30

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

Well, clearly profitability is >> Well, clearly profitability is really important, which is why the the batters review was was so important. As part of increasing profitability, we are already implementing some of the recommendations from that review. As I say, our full response will be arriving later this year, and we will look at what else we can do. It's really important that we we work closely with with farmers, but also processors, other producers, horticultural sector. There are a number of areas where it's really important.

We look at what we can do to increase profitability, and also on trade and ability of our farmers to export, because obviously that makes a big difference. And clearly, the SPS agreement that we are looking at negotiating at the moment will also support that.

15:31

Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)

- -

Lib Dem. >> Lib Dem. >> Agree that. True food security cannot exist without climate cannot exist without climate resilience, considering the recent severe weather disruptions to UK crop yields, will the government's crop yields, will the government's priorities priorities in this parliamentary session include a legally binding Good Food Bill to formalise national self-sufficiency targets, alongside nature restoration metrics? And if not, why not?

15:32

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

Yeah. bill announced in the King's Speech this time, and I can't presume to, to, to to guess what's going to be in the next King's speech, but clearly, resilience to climate change is absolutely critical. And from from different perspectives, we know that farmers struggle when we have severe flooding. We know that drought and wildfire risk is also a real problem. And so improving resilience for farming to both very dry and very wet weather are absolute priorities for for the government.

So we have invested a record £2.65 billion in flood defences, for example, and that will include supporting farmers as well, and the environmental land management schemes also will allow for grants to look at some of the impacts of climate change.

15:33

Baroness Boycott (Crossbench)

- -

Across the crossbench. >> Would the would the. >> Government consider extending the SFI payments to cover farmers growing leguminous crops? In other words, beans, a. This fixes nitrogen in the soil makes more healthy. They can't get fertilisers at the moment because of the Straits of Hormuz blockage and also. This is the way we want our diets to go. And at the moment there's not much money in it for farmers to plant these kind of crops. And this would be a massive step towards both combating climate change, etcetera, etcetera, and improving health.

15:33

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

I mean, the noble Lady makes a very good point, and I think anything that can help us to make anything that can help us to make our farming sector more secure, particularly when we've seen the impacts of the war in the Middle impacts of the war in the Middle East on fertiliser, for example, I know that the farming Minister, Angela Eagle, is looking at ways to continue to improve the SFI offer, and I will take the noble Lady

**** Possible New Speaker ****

suggestions back to her. My Lords.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords. It pays to persevere. Does my noble friend the Minister, acknowledge the very real contribution in the farming industry of the upland farmers, not least, for example, Kevin Glad. In the lovely land of Wales, the Pennine farmers, the many uplands

15:34

in Scotland, and the Cheviots, for example. And this community secures example. And this community secures in many ways the environment of much of Britain, and they face many much of Britain, and they face many challenges now, not least climate change. And I know that my noble friend the Minister, does she acknowledge how important she sees acknowledge how important she sees the environment and this community across Britain does a great deal to help and should be acknowledged and rewarded.

15:35

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

Well, I can absolutely reassure >> Well, I can absolutely reassure my noble friend that the uplands are a very close to my heart. My mother's family were upland farmers in Wales, in fact, and I currently live in in Cumbria. So the issues around upland farming is something that I know very, very well. The SFI offer that's coming forward is going to include seven moorland actions. I know not all uplands are moorlands, but it will help and payment rates will be increased.

15:35

Lord Jones (Labour)

- -

We're also working very closely. I've had a very constructive meetings with Doctor Hilary Cottam, meetings with Doctor Hilary Cottam, who's looking at a new approach and actually working very much on from the ground up in upland communities, the ground up in upland communities, working with communities, bringing them together. We are looking at pilots first in Dartmoor and then pilots first in Dartmoor and then in Cumbria because we we know that it is a challenging landscape to farm in, and we want to support the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

farm in, and we want to support the best we can. The government. Announced this 25 year roadmap for farming plan in November 24th. That's 18 months ago now, the noble Baroness Cass said. It's going to happen this year. So when exactly might we see it in 2026? And will Defra now stand up for British agriculture against Treasury and government? Attacks for farm closures are at a record new record level, and 51% of our farmers are simply thinking of giving up and leaving.

When will the government realise that supporting farming, realise that supporting farming, our farmers and food is good for Britain? That should be the principal aim of any 25 year farming plan.

15:36

Lord Blencathra (Conservative)

- -

Well, part of the reason we decided to do a 25 year farming plan is to work with farmers and rural communities to ensure that

15:36

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

they have some kind of certainty. They have some sort of security for the future, because they just simply hasn't been enough of that in recent years. So we really feel that having that long term approach that having that long term approach that is worked up with farmers, the people who are on the ground, who understand the ways that that long understand the ways that that long term thinking, that long term security can really help to support them as businesses, but also our

**** Possible New Speaker ****

food security for the future. Yeah. There's a noble Lady, except that the backbone, the backbone of food production in rural Wales and in many other areas are the small

15:37

Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru)

- -

family farms. But that one of the banes of their lives are the red banes of their lives are the red tape levels with which they have to face in undertaking their work. Will the government please review Will the government please review the red tape pressure that is on such farms, both in taxation such farms, both in taxation matters and other matters, so as to lessen this burden and let them get on with what they're best at

**** Possible New Speaker ****

producing food. Well, as I mentioned earlier, my my mother's family had a small family farm in Wales, so I, my, my uncle actually had to do another job because they couldn't make

15:38

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

sufficient money just from the farm. So I know the tough challenges that that hill farms in Wales face. And obviously it's a devolved matter. I can reassure him that I support can reassure him that I support regularly in the past. To my my colleague, I'm looking very much forward to meeting the new Plaid forward to meeting the new Plaid Cymru Minister and absolutely will continue to work to reduce what red

**** Possible New Speaker ****

continue to work to reduce what red tape in whatever way we can for farmers. Across. My Lords, my Lords.

15:38

Lord Trees (Crossbench)

- -

Crossbench, it's. >> Thank you very much, my Lords. Bovine TB is one of the most serious challenges facing our cattle farmers in England, so I very much welcome the control strategy announced this morning by the government, which makes a positive step change approach to that control. I haven't seen the details yet, but could I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, will she confirm that it will enable, first of all, farmers and vets to use new antibody based sensitive tests to indicate which of their animals is infected, no matter what the official TB status is, will they be able to have more easy access to data from Defra and.

And will they have freedom to manage out the infection in their herds? If these changes and others that are mentioned are followed, they should help improve animal health and welfare. They should reduce the stress on farmers from having to cull their cattle at regular intervals, and they should provide the farmers with some welcome light at the end of a very dark tunnel.

15:40

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

- -

Yeah, the the noble Lord is is >> Yeah, the the noble Lord is is asked some very pertinent questions. Actually, I'm really pleased that earlier today, the code assigned earlier today, the code assigned bovine TB control strategy for England was published. This has been developed and published through the the TB hub website, which, if noble Lords interested. I would urge them to to have a look at. There's been a steering group of the bovine TB partnerships that's been working on this for some time in order to make sure that we.

We get the next stage of our strategy on tackling bovine TB. Absolutely right. We're now going to be looking at the detail of the steering group's proposals carefully to see where we go next. The noble Lord asks a number of very specific questions. My understanding is, is that we are looking at new tests and implementation and working with vets, but as he has quite detailed questions about a strategy that's only just been published and I haven't seen the detail of as yet, I would write to him with that particular information.

15:41

Oral questions: Support to those affected by the earthquake in Mindanao in the Philippines

Fourth Oral Question. >> My Lords, my work in the Philippines is recorded in the in the Lords Register. Can I beg leave the Lords Register. Can I beg leave to ask the question? Standing in my name in the Order Paper.

15:41

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Labour)

- -

My Lords, I was deeply saddened to hear about the earthquake in the Philippines on the 8th of June, and I offer my condolences to everyone impacted. Our thoughts and prayers

15:41

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

are with them. I would like to praise the strong and rapid response of the government of the response of the government of the Philippines at a challenging time, and of course, the UK stands ready to provide humanitarian assistance to provide humanitarian assistance if requested by the Philippines government. We have a range of mechanisms and capabilities in mechanisms and capabilities in place to provide that support if called upon.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

called upon. I thank my hon. Friend on behalf of the government for his answer. The good people of of General Santos in South Cotabato, in the Bangsamoro region of the Philippines, have spent the last 12

15:42

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Labour)

- -

years rebuilding their economy and their communities after 50 years of their communities after 50 years of civil war. And they face these climate shock events on a regular climate shock events on a regular basis. 32,000 people have been displaced, 37 at least have died. displaced, 37 at least have died. And I hope that the government will not only be able to provide humanitarian support for a key humanitarian support for a key partner country in our geopolitical relationships, but also continue to provide support in the Philippines for action against climate change and in support of the peace building efforts following the conflict and the civil war that affected that region, in particular for so long.

15:42

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Well, can I pay tribute to my >> Well, can I pay tribute to my noble friend for the work that he's done in the Philippines over many years, and particularly in the years, and particularly in the Bangsamoro region? And he I think he's been involved for more than a decade, and it has been a remarkable commitment where he's achieved and contributed to real change. The UK has provided humanitarian assistance in recent years to support the Philippine government's response to the major natural disasters that have impacted the country.

My noble friend is right to say that these are often climate related. The Philippines is one of the countries that is most vulnerable to climate related disasters, and we have been strong supporters of them. We also have a modern development partnership with the Philippines.

15:43

Baroness Sugg (Conservative)

- -

Can I also acknowledge. >> Had any discussions. >> About deploying emergency response teams to assist. >> On the ground, such as the excellent Hazardous Area Response excellent Hazardous Area Response Team or the UK med, who have been trained in providing life saving assistance in these cases.

15:43

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

We haven't. As I say, we haven't been asked as yet to provide been asked as yet to provide support and we are a strong supporters of the of the response that's been made from the Philippines government. But I do want to make it clear we're close partners of the government of the Philippines, and we would mobilise the resources that the noble Lady mentions if they were felt to be necessary. There's there's no resistance at all. At our end.

15:44

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

- -

A small way also involved. though I haven't visited the region but did engage with parliamentarians. This earthquake is a major setback for the region on its recovery, but can I ask the the Minister why it is that in the past, before our aid cuts, when there was a major earthquake or a major disaster, we had an immediate response from an operation in Victoria Street to send out within hours a response to, rather than wait for the call from the government, has that capacity been abolished and do we have to wait? And at the moment, with all our engagement in in the area, don't we need to offer a little bit more than the ambassador's sympathy? Yeah.

15:45

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

With respect, I don't think we are just offering the ambassador are just offering the ambassador sympathy. We we do stand ready to help. And we have ensured that our commitments to humanitarian assistance have been protected. So I'm afraid I don't quite accept the characterisation that the noble Lord puts puts forward on the banks moro peace process. Why? It is an important commitment that we have been heavily involved with in the UK, supported by my noble friend Lord McConnell, and we will continue to be actively engaged in that.

15:45

Lord Swire (Conservative)

- -

The British people can be proud of the part that we have played over the years in bringing peace, relatively peace to that part of the world. Can the Minister reassure us that we will do everything we can to preserve the peace in that area? In case it is not a bit. By the recent humanitarian problems we have seen resulting from this earthquake?

15:46

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Well, can I reassure the noble Lord that we are not receiving any Lord that we are not receiving any reports? I checked this specifically of any problems with aid reaching the affected communities in the Bangsamoro area. The Philippines government aid, but, but we are committed to supporting the peace process in the Bangsamoro Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, and we will continue to do that even once this disaster is behind us.

15:46

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

- -

My Lord, did I ask my noble >> My Lord, did I ask my noble friend the Minister, what was the closest Royal naval ship to the closest Royal naval ship to the Philippines when this when this accident happened? Because historically, the Navy has been very involved in these things and was its tasking changed at all as a result of this?

15:46

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Well, I suppose I should have been prepared for that question. And he will also be prepared for me to say, I don't know the answer, but but I. But I will check, but I, I've said if the if the government of the Philippines asked for our help, we would provide it. But but there's no suggestion that they've asked for help from the Royal Navy at the moment.

15:47

The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)

- -

My Lords, the safety. is the only thing that matters right now. But following on from the noble Baroness, Lady Saag, on a practical level, we have some brilliant UK based firms with international operations who specialise in structural integrity assessment and crisis communications. Apparently the wounded are being treated in tents because they are afraid of the hospitals collapsing. So will the FCDO engage with both our experts and the Philippines authorities so we can try to make a real difference? Surely we do not need to be asked.

We should be on the front foot.

15:47

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Hey. >> Hey. >> Of course we will and we won't just wait to be asked. We we, the Philippines government, as I've said, has a strong response and we will respond to request for help. But of course we prepare. Of course we plan, of course we monitor the situation. The noble Lord knows that.

15:48

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)

- -

The UK, Asean Business Council and the noble Lord. The Minister and the noble Lord. The Minister will be aware that the Philippines is currently the president of Asean and indeed the whole region works very closely with the UK on climate change and green technologies. I wonder whether the Minister could update the House on the engagement the UK is currently undertaking with the Philippines during its presidency of Asean.

15:48

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Yes, I'm I'm I'm happy to to to do that. And I'm happy to talk and I'm happy to write with more detail, if that would be helpful. But but on the specific question that the noble Lord answered, asked about climate resilience and agriculture, and so solar energy, particularly in the blue economy, we have a very active programme and we have committed up to £20 million to various kinds of technical assistance. And my brief is in the FCDO told me that even if they don't ask for a letter, I should offer to send one, because we've got a lot of good things to say, so I will.

15:49

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Labour)

- -

Recollection that we used to. >> Speedier in. >> Response when we had a separate Department for International Development, which was Development, which was unfortunately abolished by the government of the party opposite. Would the Minister, however, tentatively give some indication that when circumstances permit, we will consider reinstating a separate Department for International Development?

15:49

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Yeah. quite empowered to tentatively, tentatively or otherwise propose machinery of changes in government machinery of government changes. But I would say to my noble friend, it is important to us that our international development effort particularly and and, and the whole House knows this in toughened fiscal circumstances, comes together with our diplomatic effort and our defence effort in a coordinated way. And, of course, the government will consider the right machinery of government to achieve that.

15:50

Baroness Goldie (Conservative)

- -

May I try and come to the aid of >> May I try and come to the aid of the Minister? When I was a defence Minister and visited the Philippines and I was the first defence Minister to go there for 40 defence Minister to go there for 40 years, it was my pleasure to board HMS Tamar, now Tamar and HMS Speyer, two OFT offshore protection vessels retained out in that region to provide humanitarian and general help if required. Is the noble Lord the Minister aware, or will he consult with the Mod as to whether these two ships are in a position to offer any form of support? Yes.

15:50

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

I'll be happy to to do that. The noble Lady may have been the First Minister to visit the Defence Minister of the Philippines, but she wasn't the last. My noble friend Lord Coaker was there very recently talking to the to the Philippines government about increased defence cooperation, and I'll be very happy to come back to the noble Lady on the specific questions about about about the ships, but it is the strengthening relationship. But I won't spoil Lord Coaker thunder.

15:51

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

- -

Just further to the question >> Just further to the question asked by the noble Lord Effingham, it's not just a question of residents not wanting to go to hospitals because of fear of them collapsing. Many hospitals have actually been very badly damaged and so people are being treated, as the noble Lord said, in makeshift facilities. So can I just push the Minister a bit further? What specific? We have a lot of expertise in this area. So what specific aid, medical aid is HMG looking at and thinking of?

15:51

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

I'm very happy to to because it follows up on the on the question from the Earl of Effingham. I'm very happy to look specifically at what what is being prepared. But I would reiterate, and I do want to emphasise this, there is no resistance on the part of His Majesty's Government to supporting the Philippines government in disaster relief on this disaster, and no doubt ones in the future. I really do want to stress that.

15:52

Private Notice Question: Government offices and vehicles: concealed surveillance equipment

Private notice question government officers and vehicles, government officers and vehicles, concealed surveillance equipment. Lord Alton of Liverpool. Of which I have given private notice. The

15:52

Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)

- -

question is as follows. To ask His Majesty's Government further to the reported discoveries of concealed surveillance equipment in government offices and vehicles, government offices and vehicles, what assessment? They have made the implications of this for one,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

policy. In line with the practice of successive administrations, this government does not comment on the detail of internal security matters,

15:53

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

but I can confirm that an electronic device was found in a communal area of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government during a routine security check. The device was not security check. The device was not in or near ministerial offices, and it is currently being investigated by the appropriate agencies. The by the appropriate agencies. The government have also looked into the Daily Mail report and previous coverage, and have not discovered any evidence of a tracking device being placed in Prime Minister's cars.

This is based on inquiries made at the time and more recently.

15:53

Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)

- -

My Lords, it's. >> So sorry. >> I'm grateful to my friend. I'm grateful also to the noble Lord, the Minister, for that reply. But the Minister, for that reply. But in fact, that disclosure was made yesterday to a select committee in another place that a Chinese cellular module was discovered in the then Prime Minister's car, and the previous day there was a report of secret cameras being discovered in government offices. And surely, my Lords, that raises serious questions about the security of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

government departments and the systematic Use of. Both surveillance.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And indeed, transnational repression by hostile states, including those states described by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, as being part of a deadly quartette of our country's enemies. My Lords, is our country's enemies. My Lords, is it true that the location of the cameras was where consideration of the proposed People's Republic of the proposed People's Republic of China Embassy was taking place? If you'll make an assessment of whether there has been undue influence as a result, and when will the government give effect to the unanimous call of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I have the honour to chair that the People's Republic of China should be listed with Russia and Iran in the upper tier of the Foreign Influence Registration Scheme.

15:55

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, on the latter point, the government keeps all matters such as the registration under the first game under review at all times, and it's not appropriate again to comment upon any consideration of that at this time. I also would just say to the noble Lord that it's not appropriate for me to comment on what is a live investigation into the circumstances that I've already admitted have happened in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and Communities, and I would strongly caution against any speculation at this time, because the government will need to investigate that matter in due course.

On the question of the Chinese embassy decision, I'll just say to the noble Lord that intelligence agencies were involved throughout the process, and an extensive range of measures were developed to manage any risks. The planning decision was taken independently by the Secretary of State for housing, and its conclusion is a result of a process that began in 2018, and I would, if I may return to my initial comments, that the government cannot comment on the detail of internal security matters, but we are investigating those by the appropriate agencies, and I think it's best at the moment if we leave it at that.

15:56

Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)

- -

Lord Wood apologies. government could comment on this. It's bad enough, though perhaps all too predictable, that there are. There's illicit surveillance, by way, for example, of hidden cameras. But what about when public money is actively used to procure cameras that originate, for example, in the People's Republic of China? Now, I know the last government banned the new the new installation of Hikvision cameras in sensitive government buildings. Have they all been dismantled? And what about banning them from from from the public estate more generally? Good question.

15:56

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, I again, I know my noble friend is pressing me to comment on these matters. I say to the House, I cannot comment on security issues and nor would the House, I suspect, wish me to comment on security issues, except to say that the government will ensure that all matters in government activity are secure and that the government takes every step it possibly can to make sure that the type of incidents that the noble Lady is referring to do not happen and are prevented.

15:57

Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)

- -

Sir, I'm. will agree that this is a highly disturbing and troubling discovery that demonstrates the severity of that demonstrates the severity of the espionage threat that we face today. And picking up on the point that the noble Lord Lord Alton made. that the noble Lord Lord Alton made. Given that the camera was found in the offices where Ministers approved the application for the new Chinese Mega Embassy, it seems highly likely that China or a person linked to China is behind this.

Surely this has to serve as a wake up call for government. So I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, how can they still go ahead with allowing China to build a massive spy hub in the middle of London after this?

15:58

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well said. Well. >> Again, I would caution the noble Lord about jumping to conclusions as to who, what, where or when was behind the device that was found. I behind the device that was found. I would genuinely caution him on that. But I can say, with regard to the Chinese Embassy that the planning decision was taken independently. The intelligence services have been involved throughout, there have been extensive negotiations, and the Chinese government themselves have agreed to consolidate its seven current sites in London into one site, which brings clear security advantages for the United Kingdom.

So if the noble Lord will allow me. Those are interesting points that he's made. We will examine the facts and determine the facts in due course.

15:58

Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)

- -

My Lords. Minister and the government have understandably emphasised that the camera was not in a location used by Ministers. However, with due respect to Ministers, civil servants can be pretty important as well. So is the noble Lord the Minister able to give us any information about exactly where the camera was located and who uses that area, and could the noble Lord, the Minister, reassure us that just because the camera was not in a place that Ministers use, that is no reason to downplay the importance of this issue or the importance of an appropriate response by the government in due course.

15:59

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Yeah. does take this matter extremely seriously. It has and will investigate what's happened. Again, I'd just say that which I hope he can understand. I don't want to comment on where and how the information came to light, but I have confirmed to the noble Lord Alton of Liverpool that the facts of the case, as reported, are correct, and I think it's best that we investigate this through the appropriate agencies and in due course, come to conclusions in government and understand what and how has happened in due course.

16:00

Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)

- -

Declare an interest as the director of the Free Speech Union, I wondered if the noble Lord, the I wondered if the noble Lord, the Minister, could give us some indication of when section nine of the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act is likely to be commenced. I know the government is keeping it under review. This is the clause which requires English universities to include the funding they're receiving from foreign states in their annual reports to the office for students, so the office can monitor if those foreign states are trying to interfere in freedom of speech or academic freedom on on those university campuses.

16:00

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

I'm grateful to the noble Lord. If he will allow me, I will write If he will allow me, I will write to him on that point for the simple reason that the universities aspect of that is a different department than the one I have responsibility than the one I have responsibility for, but I will examine that and report back to him as soon as possible.

16:01

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

- -

My Lords, my Lords, I fear that the. My noble friend, the Minister will probably give an answer. He's will probably give an answer. He's already given about five times already, in particular to the noble Lord Lord Pack. But I do think it makes a world of difference as to where. Within the Department this camera was found. If, for example, and he used a very careful form of words, he talked about the common areas, and he talked about an area which was not close to Ministers office by common areas.

Did he, for example, mean those areas to which the public or visitors quite frequently were present, or did he? Common areas mean, for example, that it was concealed within a toilet area? Now, if it was a toilet area, I suspect we would be having a very different conversation in terms of this series of exchanges, because that would imply perhaps it's an internal matter with an internal member of staff rather than anything else. So is my noble friend without prejudicing any of the other things he's said, able to give us any enlightenment?

16:02

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

In short, no. And that again. But by my very nature, I am trying to be helpful on a on a regular basis. But there are certain things I can't be helpful with, and one of them is to prejudice or give further information about an important matter of location of the. Any device that was found, as I've said to the House, it was not in or near a ministerial office, but we are investigating. There will be some examination of what's happened, and I wouldn't I would just hesitate against any speculation as to who, what, where, why or when until such time as that investigation has occurred.

16:03

Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)

- -

Locomotive always helped with >> Locomotive always helped with the replies which he gives to the house. But could I press him further on the second limb of the further on the second limb of the question I put to him about the discovery of cellular modules in a former Prime Minister's car? This was not something just reported, as he said to the House in a newspaper. This was said to the Business Select Committee in another place yesterday by Mr. Charles Parton, who served as one of our senior diplomats and is one of the leading experts in this country on China and also on cellular modules.

It was also said again, My Lords, at a meeting in your Lordships House at a meeting I chaired only last night by the same Mr. Charles Parton, will he at least look at the record of the Select Committee and perhaps undertake to have a conversation with Mr. Parton?

16:03

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

As I said, and I. I will repeat the answer because I need to do so the answer because I need to do so for clarity, for the noble Lord. We have looked into the reports and previous coverage and have not discovered any evidence of a tracking device being placed in Prime Minister's cars, and that's based on inquiries made at the time. And again more recently. And I think that I can't be clearer than that an investigation is taking place. No evidence has been provided.

The individual I saw on television last night make those allegations. I can only repeat what my understanding is of the security services follow up on those matters following the allegations. And indeed, what I've said to the House today is my current understanding of the position.

16:04

Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Conservative)

- -

The Minister has said that the >> The Minister has said that the this was found in a routine inspection. I just wondered whether the government has instigated more the government has instigated more frequent inspections as a result of this discovery.

16:05

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Again, this this with due respect to this chamber, I don't think the chamber is the place for think the chamber is the place for me to outline how often, when, where and how the government undertakes security checks on buildings or on vehicles. But I hope the noble Lord, who I know takes an interest in these matters, will understand that it is the first priority of the government to keep our workings internally secure, and it's important that we do that, and I can assure him that that's what the government is doing.

16:05

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

- -

An element of the original question from the noble Lord Lord question from the noble Lord Lord Alton. Does the Minister agree with the director general of MI5 that China is seeking to influence our political system?

16:05

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

Well, China does influence our political system in many ways, and the government won't tolerate foreign interference from any state actor targeting the UK. We've been consistent and unambiguous in our assessment that China presents a series of threats to the UK. We have to do business with China still, we have to recognise China. We have to work with China on a number of areas of common interest. But self-evidently, there are a number of significant threats that China poses, and we keep those under review.

And in all our dealings with the nation of China, we bear those aspects of work in mind.

16:06

Lord Farmer (Conservative)

- -

Can I just ask, Minister, whether parliamentary members offices have been checked for any offices have been checked for any of these devices in the other place and in this place? I mean, I would have imagined that foreign powers could be quite interested in certain members of Parliament's offices. The conversations that are going on there. I'm just asking, is there a usual check of our offices?

16:06

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

- -

It's an interesting and potentially helpful question. I do not have jurisdiction over this building in either the House of Lords or the House of Commons. That is a matter for the speaker and the Lord speaker and the chief officers of both houses. I think they will have heard that response, and it may be possible for me to facilitate a reply to the noble Lord on that via those offices. But

**** Possible New Speaker ****

it's not a matter for me. My Lords, may.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, may. I will give the members a minute

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The The first.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The first. Reading of a private member's Bill Lord Oates. My Lords. I.

16:08

Business of the House

16:10

Urgent Question Repeat: Reports of a serious violent attack in north Belfast involving a foreign national

North Belfast.

16:10

Lord Caine (Conservative)

- -

My Lords, the barbaric attack in >> My Lords, the barbaric attack in north Belfast on Monday evening was truly sickening and our thoughts are with the victim. Will the noble are with the victim. Will the noble Baroness, the Minister, join me in commending the bravery of the public who intervened and the swift response of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Does she also agree that nothing justifies the violence we saw overnight? We are all angry. The right response, however, is not uncontrolled rage, but to allow the law to take its proper course.

In early 2024, the Irish government were quick to raise concerns over migrants entering their jurisdiction through Northern Ireland. So can the Minister tell us what conversations are taking place to prevent migrants coming into Ireland from other safe EU countries that are in the Schengen area, and then exploiting the Common Travel Area to claim asylum here in the United Kingdom.

16:11

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I thank the Lord for his comments with regard to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I think anyone that's watched the news in the last 36 hours can only be in awe and very grateful to. To the Chief Constable Jon Boutcher and the. The brave men and women that are serving in our all of our emergency services, but especially the PSNI. I also want to put on record. I think the thanks of the whole House to those extraordinarily brave bystanders who chose not to look the other way, but intervened very bravely to save a member of their community.

With regards to the specific question that he raises in terms of the common travel area, the noble Lord will be as aware as I am that the common travel area has been in operation for a century and has always had an issue, and has is something that is of regular conversation with both the British and Irish governments, and that continues to be so, and has been so this week. I think it's helpful for members of your Lordships' House to know that in the last 12 months, there were 1500 enforcement operations which took place in terms of illegal immigration in Northern Ireland, with more than 1200 arrests.

It is something this government takes very, very seriously.

16:12

Baroness Suttie (Liberal Democrat)

- -

I too deeply deplore yesterday's violent attack and condemn in the violent attack and condemn in the strongest possible terms those who seek to weaponise pain and suffering. In particular, I condemn those inciting violence from abroad, including Tommy Robinson from Moscow yesterday evening. Our thoughts are with the victim and his family, and we all owe a debt of gratitude to the bystanders and the emergency services whose bravery was truly outstanding. Does the Minister agree that the priority must be to help the community recover from this appalling violence? And will she say what the government is doing to support the people of Belfast and bring communities back together through the difficult weeks ahead? Yeah.

16:13

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Noble Lady, for the tone in >> Noble Lady, for the tone in which she's taken. I agree with every word that she says, not least about the appalling comments of Stephen Yaxley-lennon, someone who I, in a previous incarnation, campaigned against for decades. I think for all of us, Steven Ogilvy should be in our prayers and we hope and wish for him to have a speedy as a recovery as possible in terms of working with the community after the riots, after the disorder in Ballymena last year, I went and met with the community leaders, the extraordinary women who stood in between those violent perpetrators and the community and I am very grateful for them.

This will take months and months for the community to heal from what is happening. I want to reiterate what the leader of the DUP has said in recent hours. Protests and politics are not protests and politics are British values. That is the way we engage. Violence is not.

16:14

Lord Dodds of Duncairn (Democratic Unionist Party)

- -

Scenes of appalling violence that we've seen in Belfast and in North Belfast, which is. I used to have the honour to represent. In the other place, I've been rightly condemned by everybody. Such violence serves absolutely no purpose except to hurt communities and innocent people and should not be happening. Can the Minister, in relation to the horrific event on on on Monday night which sparked all of this, can't you give an assurance that will be speedy justice for that victim, as we've seen in other cases, and there'll be no undue delay? And in terms of protecting and defending the people of Northern Ireland and the open border has been mentioned, will she urgently review the operation of the Common Travel Agency, talk to the Irish authorities about what they're doing? Will she look at the draw factors which enable people to go through two or 3 or 4 safe countries before they claim asylum in the UK? Would you also look at the particular problem we have in Northern Ireland, and which has been subject to proposed legislation so far, unsuccessfully, to outlaw the glorification of violence? This is happening at the very top of the Northern Ireland government by the First Minister, and it's encouraging young people to say, well, if it was OK for them, it's OK for us.

This culture of resorting to violence on the streets must end. Yeah.

16:15

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I'm going to thank the Lord for >> I'm going to thank the Lord for his service, both in this House but also his decades of service in Northern Ireland. I think the scenes that we have seen remind all of us of quite how challenging it has always been to be a representative in Northern Ireland, and we're so grateful for the work that he has done. I think it is fair to say an important to say that we have to call for calm in Northern Ireland and across the country in the coming hours and days in terms of the other.

And that has been the case, and I am pleased to see from across the political spectrum that they have done so. In terms of the glorification of terrorism, there is no excuse for glorifying proscribed organisation. In fact, it's illegal and it should be.

16:16

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

- -

My Lords, I totally condemn the >> My Lords, I totally condemn the brutal and barbaric attack on Steven Ogilvy and I wish him a full Steven Ogilvy and I wish him a full and speedy recovery. I commend the first responders, the PSNI and those members of the community who apprehended the assailant and in so doing, we then witnessed in the aftermath the uncontrollable violence that spilled onto the streets of Belfast. Would my noble friend agree with me that such violence seemed to concentrate on a pogrom of people of colour, and in so doing, it is important to adhere to the principle of diversity, the principle of diversity is the very essence of humanity.

Yes.

16:17

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

What we've seen overnight is violence and disorder of some of violence and disorder of some of the most shocking kind base, using what was, I think, one of the most horrendous murder attempted murders that we have unfortunately seen because of its spread across social media. I think we need to remember what has actually happened and contextualise what's happened in the last 24 hours and what it's actually led to. 27 people were made homeless last night because people went door to door to try and target foreign nationals, to burn them out of their homes.

I can only imagine the terror to a two month old is the youngest victim, who had to be moved from her home, and I don't think any of us will ever be able to forget the image of a nine year old child and their family being put in the back of a Land Rover to be rescued from violent, racist thugs who were seeking to undermine them and to undermine their very sense of belonging, a country that many had lived in for decades.

This is simply unacceptable and will not be tolerated. And these people will face, as I should have said to noble Lord Lord Dobbs, they will face the full strength of the law, both the original perpetrator, but also the people who have acted with such dishonour over the last 24 hours.

16:18

Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (Ulster Unionist Party)

- -

My Lord. >> My Lords, I, like everyone else here, offer my sincere sympathy to Mr. Ogilvy, and also to welcome the the the support for. For those who came to his aid as well as the local people. But the security services, police and ambulance service. I, like everyone else, totally condemned that violence, condemn the violence of last night and those people who are living properly in the United Kingdom, in that part of the United Kingdom. They have a right to live there.

But will the Minister give us some idea as to how she and her government are going to, or how the Minister and the government are going to stop those illegal immigrants coming in, their boatloads and their numbers in great volume into the United Kingdom.

16:19

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

The noble Lord raises a very, >> The noble Lord raises a very, very important point. Nearly 7000 people have been deported since the general election to March 2026. general election to March 2026. It's a 40% 41% increase on the 21 months before that. That is an important thing for us to remember. We are a welcoming opening country. I am only here because of previous immigration policies that allowed my family to come. But this is about making sure that when, if you're lucky enough to live in the UK, that you abide by British values, and if you don't, you will leave.

16:19

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

- -

My Lords. Raise this issue with the Minister that people are conflating those who come here illegally to those who are here legally. One of the people that were fire bombed out of their homes last night were an African family that had been here 20 years. We also see pictures of a business potentially started by an Indian family that have been firebombed. There is no excuse for those people to inciting hatred and race. And just as South Yorkshire Police took action when the Holiday Inn in Rotherham was attacked, I really hope that the Northern Ireland Police Service have the same figure to take action against those that put life at danger for the last couple of days.

16:20

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Lord raises an incredibly important point. We've seen people important point. We've seen people who have been too scared to go to work in the last 24 hours, people who serve in our NHS, people that serve in lots of different public services, as well as those that have built lives here. And and we are grateful to do so. I'd like to finish my contributions today with not my words, but the words of the Ogilvy family, because I think that they reflect when most of us would want to be.

We want to make it absolutely clear that overnight unrest is not welcome and peaceful protest is the only way forward. We have many migrants who make a deeply valuable contribution to our country, including in our healthcare system, hospitality sector, and we depend on them to make our country work. We do not want this terrible tragedy to be used to divide people or fuel hostility.

16:21

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

- -

Questions on a statement made in >> Questions on a statement made in the House of Commons yesterday on the Middle East. >> My Lords.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords. Let me firstly thank the Minister for the opportunity to ask questions on this important statement. The situation in the Middle East continues to cause global instability, and families here in the UK are feeling the impact at the petrol pump and in the shops. We all have an interest in securing stability in the region, and we should all hope that ceasefires eventually lead to lasting peace. In recent days, we have seen a significant increase in tensions following the Iranian regime's use of ballistic missiles in an attack on Israel.

I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington, for her confirmation that Israel does have the right to defend itself when Israel faces terrorist attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah, when the Iranian regime fires ballistic missiles at Israel, we must all, in my view, be united on Israel's right to self-defence. We must all recognise that Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism, both internationally and. Sadly, here in the UK. This House voted three times in the last session to prescribe the IRGC as a terrorist organisation.

The Ministers now tell us that this is something that the government is committed to, and that it will happen as soon as Ministers can. So would the noble Lord. The Minister update the House on the government's planned timescale for prescription. Iran also continues to obstruct shipping in the Strait of Hormuz. The regime has murdered its own citizens in droves and refuses to end its nuclear weapons program. So could the noble Lord please take this opportunity to reassure the House that urgent work is ongoing with our US and EU partners to secure the safe passage of shipping through the Strait? And can he say what work is being done to ensure that Iran does, in fact, eventually end its nuclear programme? I think noble Lords across the House, including on the government benches, will agree with me when we say that Iran was never have a nuclear weapon.

Turning to Gaza and the West Bank, my right hon. Friend Dame Priti Patel was right when she said in the other place that we all want to see an end to violence and conflict in the West Bank and in Gaza, and there remain concerns about the delivery of aid which urgently need to be resolved. And we support all efforts to secure peace. But in that context, we know that Hamas must be disarmed and it must have no role in the future government of Gaza or in the West Bank.

However, Hamas is still a threat and it is still powerful in Gaza, so would be grateful if the noble Lord would give the House a sense of the government's reaction to the news yesterday that the United States Agency for International Development has referred 101 current or former UNRWA staff members to the US State Department over their affiliation with Hamas and in some cases, their involvement in the October 7th attacks themselves. We believe that. Of course, it would be preferable for the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah.

So when my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary asked questions in the other place about the support that the government is giving to Lebanon on this point, they went unanswered. So I wonder, can the Minister please say whether the government have plans to go beyond the current support that we are already giving to the Lebanese armed forces and help them to contribute to the disarmament and disbandment of Hezbollah?

16:25

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

- -

Lordships we. >> Had an. >> Opportunity of raising Lebanon yesterday. I will focus today on Iran, on Palestine and on Sudan. I agree with the noble Lord that we are feeling the impact of the US Israeli Iranian war here in the UK. 102 days ago, we were called on by the conservative opposition to be all in with the Trump administration. On the Iran war. I warned that would be a mistake as the case had not been made and there was no clear means by which it would be ended.

Now we have ceasefires where the firing has not ceased, and there is not an end to the war, and civilians are still paying the price and the convulsion on global trade and energy markets continue, and seems to offer no immediate or medium term respite for the communities affected by it, especially those on a humanitarian need. I was at a briefing yesterday with the situation in Afghanistan, where we were told in very clear terms that ships with food supplies, vital nutritional supplies for Afghan children, had been held up because they were on a ship waiting to exit the Strait of Hormuz.

Both the United States and Iran have not offered any respite to to allow humanitarian relief through the Strait of Hormuz. So I'd be grateful if the Minister is able to make strong representations that there are humanitarian consequences to the closure of the strait. President Trump seems to, at the same time, have crippled the civilian economy in Iran, actively harming the very people that he said the US was on its way to help and at the same time, given the homicidal regime in Tehran, astonishing strategic advantage, its proxies have noticed.

And it is why people are still under the thumb of Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists after all of this violence that we heard yesterday, for some in this House, that there needed to be more violence to solve this situation. But as the former Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid has said, I quote, for the thousandth time, violence without diplomacy is not sustainable. And I agree with him with regards to the ongoing situation and tragedy within Gaza and Palestine. I wonder if the Minister could confirm what our government's assessment is on the actions of the Board of Peace and any of the technical elements within it that we read reporting that the Board of Peace currently has zero funds, zero funds available to it under an authorised situation, is that the government's assessment, with the stasis and confusion of the Trump administration on its intent for the Board of Peace, that that is something where I remind the House the conservative opposition said we should be part of that, too.

What is the current means by which humanitarian assistance is being provided within Gaza? I agreed with the Foreign Secretary and in the statement that there is a considerable lack of action to deliver levels of humanitarian aid. It is not even anywhere close to where the 20 point plan said it would be. What is the government's assessment of the scale of the assistance that's being provided, and with regards to the continuing violence within the West Bank, it is very regrettable that there is still too high a level of impunity for those that are perpetuating violence within the West Bank.

I agree with the additional sanctions that are being put in place, but there is too much of the impunity for not only settlers, but those who are in outposts. These are outposts which are prohibited under Israeli law, and there is lack of policing with regards to the activity of outposts. So will the government ensure that any of those who are facilitating, either by finance or political support, those that are sanctioned, will be brought within the sanctions regime, and that will apply to those within this country, too.

Finally, with regards to Sudan, because Sudan is a conflict which has far too little scrutiny in this House and Parliament and in the UK, but it is incredibly linked with what is happening within the Middle East. Does the Minister agree with two of the key principles in the 12th of September statement last year by the Quad Countries, that Sudan's future governance should be, through an inclusive and transparent process where civilians are leading and not controlled by any warring party, including those of the Muslim Brotherhood, so that Sudan, as well as other civilians across the region, can have more sustainable peace.

Before I sit down and links with the previous question that we've just heard, community cohesion is now something where we all need to be focusing our minds. There has been repugnant Islamophobic statements from the far right, and there has been repulsive anti-Semitic statements and actions from those, including the far left in this country and groups two. And I reiterate my call for high level cross-party talks to lead to a consensus that anti-Semitism has no place in the streets of our country, is not British, and no single person in this country should be held to account for actions of foreign governments.

It is not in the repulsive.

16:31

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Yes. Thank you. >> Yes. Thank you. >> I thank both noble Lords for those comments on the statement those comments on the statement made by my right hon. Friend and I try and do deal with some of the questions they raise. If I don't if I'm not able to, then I'll obviously follow up in writing. We obviously. Let me start with Iran. We're obviously concerned by the recent escalation and rise in tension, and we absolutely encourage the US and Iran to continue with the talks and to focus on de-escalation.

I think everyone in the House would agree with that. And I note the the noble Lord Lord Purvis observation about humanitarian aid not getting through the Straits of Hormuz. I must say I'm very concerned about that. And I promise to to look look into it further. But the Strait of Hormuz must be reopened for trade and indeed for humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan and elsewhere. And the. The UK is working with the French on the multinational military mission to keep the Straits of Hormuz open.

But we can't do that at the noble Lord Callanan asked me about this. We can't do that until there is a sustainable ceasefire and we know exactly what is required, but we are at the forefront of bringing together international cooperation to ensure that once the there is a ceasefire and the Straits of Hormuz are reopened, they stay reopened with. With our support. The noble Lord asked me about prescription and so on, and we are following the recommendations of Jonathan Hall KC.

He will know that the State Threats Bill has been introduced in in the other place, and we are determined to address strait state threats from proxies. It is absolutely essential for our national security and for the safety of our communities and the. This House had the opportunity to discuss the State Threats Bill very soon with my noble friend Lord Hanson, and we hope, as I think the Home Secretary said yesterday, that that will be brought to the statute books in very shortly, and that will give us the.

Give the government powers, similar to terrorism powers, to act against state threats from proxies. We take that very seriously indeed. I entirely agree, and the entirely the the the government entirely agrees with Lord Callanan that that the that Iran must not have a nuclear weapon. We don't think this war is the way to deliver that outcome, but we will continue to work with our allies and partners to focus on that. We. We do not want to see that proliferation under any circumstances.

And the noble Lord Lord Callanan asked me to reaffirm the UK's long standing support for the Lebanese government and indeed the Lebanese Lebanese armed forces, and I'm very happy to do that. And we will look specifically at what more help we can give them. The situation. I don't have time to talk at great length about Lebanon, but the situation in Lebanon is, is, is really terrible. I answered a question from Lord Purvis not so long ago about this, and we do regard Israeli strikes as reckless and disproportionate, and we will the Lebanese government is the legitimate authority in Lebanon, and we will continue to support them and their armed forces.

Hamas has not yet. Sorry, Hezbollah attacks on Israel and Hezbollah must Demilitarise and we are very committed to that. Turning now to Gaza, if I may, I mean, words almost fail me, frankly, to describe how extreme the humanitarian crisis and words really fail me to describe the seriousness of the of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. 1.9 million people have displaced. I know noble Lords that know these things, but it is really important for us to understand them. What is going on? There is a water and sanitation crisis.

There is a public health crisis. There are families without shelter and there are children without food. It is I could, I could, but I don't have time to go through a long list of what what is needed. But let me just say this it is essential that food, medicine and fuel gets through to Gaza as soon as possible. The problem is not that aid is not available. We've got food rotting in warehouses. The problem is not that funding is not available. The problem is access.

These crossings must reopen and they must stay open and the aid must get through. Lord Callanan asked me about. About UNRWA. The reality is, I think the noble Lord knows is that there have been a lot of concerns about. I think that the noble Lady Baroness Deech raised them with me in the past. UNRWA now has Christiane Saunders and charts. It has a reform programme. We want to see that taken forward and we want. But. But the reality is, and I'm sorry, I know this is a difficult dilemma.

UNRWA is providing life saving basic services on the ground. And in order to get those services delivered, we have to continue to work with with UNRWA. Can I just say on on Palestinian governance, Hamas decommissioning has not started and we do want that want to see that happen as soon as possible. I'm very happy to say more about the support that we're giving to the Palestinian Authority in in our following our historic recognition of the Palestine state and the two state solution.

But as far as Hamas decommissioning is essential for making progress with Palestinian recognition, the noble law. Lord Purvis asked me about sanctions in relation to settlements on the West Bank. We've just announced a fourth round of sanctions. As my right hon. Friend said the other place, and we have our sanctions regime in on West Bank settlers is stronger than any other country. And he knows I'm not going to give a running commentary on future sanctions, but we will use our sanction powers.

And as he knows, we've used them extensively in relation to the West Bank, including on members of the Israeli Cabinet in a personal capacity. I do want to say one other thing. One other important thing which which has been mentioned about the West Bank, we do not want to see. The government does not want to see UK companies involved in in work in on the West Bank. And we have my my right hon. Friend has tightened the guidance and.

And we shall see. We shall keep that under review. We do not, under any circumstances, want UK companies involved in settlement building in the West Bank, and the Prime Minister has issued a joint statement on the 22nd of May, specifically on E one. We. We do not want UK companies involved in that. I'd say one other thing about that, if I may, we have also been in touch with the Charity Commission about charities that purport to support West Bank settlers and indeed, in relation to my earlier comments, people that are involved with the Iranian regime.

And we do want to see the Charity Commission doing more in relation to those purported charities. And we we are working with them on that. I am, of course, very happy to repeat what my noble friend Lady Chapman, said in relation to Israel's right. To self-defence. Of course we understand that. Of course we support that. We have not forgotten what happened on October the 7th. And we think that attacks. We've made it very clear that attacks from. On Israel, from Hezbollah, Hamas or Iranian Iran or any proxies should stop.

And we are we are friends and allies of Israel, and we will continue to be so. We do not support movements for disinvestment and all the rest of it. On antisemitism, which the noble Lord Lord Purvis mentioned. We are concerned about this. We have provided 80 million community security trust. But I am not complacent and I don't think anyone in the government or indeed in your Lordships' House is complacent about this. We have to do more. We have to bring different bits of government together to work more closely on on anti-Semitism.

We are not where we want to be, and that is partly to do with what's going on in the international arena. But we must address these remarks, address these issues domestically as well. And in that context, I entirely endorse Lord Purvis remarks about community cohesion on Sudan. Just very briefly, because I'm now really nearly out of time, we do indeed endorse the quad process. And as the noble Lord knows, we're part of that process. And we do want to see the kind of government that he recommended and talked about.

My Lord, my.

16:40

Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-affiliated)

- -

Lord, my. >> Lord, my. >> Lord. >> My Lords. >> If I may. My Lords, it's completely naive of the government completely naive of the government to expect the the Lebanese government or armed forces to deal with Hezbollah. They're completely with Hezbollah. They're completely incapable of doing that. And they have been for years. The only people capable of dealing with Hezbollah are the IDF. If Israel does have the right to defend itself, and if we want to see peace, then we should be supporting the Israelis in dealing with with Hezbollah.

On this question of anti-Semitism, singling Israel out, holding it to standards not applied to other countries are clear examples of anti-Semitism under the official IHRA definition. This is, my Lords, the second debate already this week on Israel. The second debate. Over the last few years, Parliament has discussed Israel more than any other issue, not just any international issue, more than any domestic issue, more than the economy, unemployment, crime, the NHS, the public out there look at Parliament and think this is utterly mad, utterly, utterly mad.

Does the government understand? Does Parliament not understand, that singling out the world's only Jewish state, holding it to standards not applied to anywhere else, suggesting that Israel is committing the worst? Falsely accusing Israel of committing these terrible crimes. This is bound to drive hostility towards people who are identified with Israel, which is the vast majority of the Jewish community. And I have to say, this is why I believe Parliament is playing a large role in driving the explosion of anti-Semitism that we've seen on the streets of Britain.

16:42

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

This is the government. >> Perhaps I can answer that question. Thank you. The. The noble Lord raises two issues in relation to Hezbollah. First, let me let me try and deal with that. We have made our position clear on Hezbollah. He takes the view that the only people that can deal with Hezbollah are Israel. But. But we do need to see progress on on their actions in Lebanon. And we will continue to support the Lebanese government. We do think that's the right thing to do.

I'm sorry if the noble Lord doesn't agree with that, but we do think that is the right thing to do with regard to Israel. I hope I was going to say, my noble friend, I think he is my noble friend. In some ways I hope Lord Austin wouldn't include me or any of my remarks in what he said about Parliament and Israel, and I don't entirely concur. Frankly. I do think, though, and to this extent I agree with Lord Austin very strongly. We should watch our language.

We should mind our words. We people do watch out for what we say and listen to what we say, both here and in the other place, and I would not want to endorse the view that Israel should be held to higher standards than other countries, but it is a very concerning situation. And as I said in response to Lord Callanan, we are supporters of Israel.

16:44

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

- -

We'll hear from we'll hear from the noble Lord Ahmad. the noble Lord Ahmad. >> I draw attention to my entry on the register in the Middle East and the register in the Middle East and conflict resolution. If I could push the noble Lord, the Minister, further on the issue of Lebanon, raised by my noble friend Lord Callanan. The United Kingdom, as he rightly acknowledged, has a long standing support for Lebanon. Lebanese armed forces. During the last visit that I made with the then Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron to Lebanon, President then General Owen, the Lebanese armed forces requested uniforms training.

These things are required now. They shouldn't be requiring consideration. So I pressed the noble Lord. What specific support are we giving in support of resolution 1701 of the UN Security Council in Britain, playing its part, exercising its levers. And I'm also a bit concerned by the fact that there's been no high level engagement visits to Israel and to the occupied Palestinian territories since 2024. We must engage with the government of Israel to ensure that we see long term peace and stability in the region.

At the moment, I can't see that happening.

16:45

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

I thank the noble Lord, and I pay tribute to his experience and his track record in this area. On the on the question of the practical help we should be operating operate offering to Lebanon and to the Lebanese army. I'm very happy to accept his challenge. If there are practical things we can do, we should be doing. And I think that's absolutely right. And I'll take that back to the department to find out exactly what the situation is on that.

That doesn't seem to me entirely at all inconsistent with where the government stands on this. On this question of discussions with Israel, the noble Lord will know that in the current situation, these things are extremely difficult. But we will keep talking to all the parties involved. We have a significant role in the various groups that have been set up around all these conflicts, and we will be continue to be part of that, including talking to. I'm sorry, I can't give a more specific.

16:46

Lord Anderson of Swansea (Labour)

- -

That no minority has contributed more positively to this country than the Jewish community in our midst in the past and now. But turning to the statement, which I genuinely recognise and applaud that, and it appears to have all party support. But is there not a danger that we shall ignore the fact that, in regard to his bother, that it is so intertwined within the communities and the Lebanon that it's very, very difficult indeed to expect the Lebanese government to launch a the campaign against Hezbollah, to me not also recognise that there is no realistic prospect of Hamas decommissioning its weapons, because that would be the end of the.

Of Hamas. And also that is unrealistic to expect the Israeli Cabinet as currently constituted, to exert any real pressure on settler violence. It is all somewhat realistic. Those assumptions.

16:47

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

I. Let me try and deal with some some of those points that I know my noble friend raises. I wouldn't want, frankly, to single out a particular community as having made more contribution to this country than any other, but I do absolutely recognise the contribution that the Jewish community has made to this nation's life, sometimes in the most difficult circumstances for that community. So I'm absolutely stand foursquare behind my own admiration for the Jewish community in Britain on on Hezbollah and Demilitarising.

Let me be absolutely clear about this. The government does not think that Hezbollah has any place in the future of Lebanon. That's our view. And on decommissioning Hamas. Well, I think our view is that what we want to do is to strengthen the Palestinian Authority and Palestinian governance. That is why we have taken the steps we have to to support the Palestinian Authority. We've given them £10 million this year. We do want to get some basic services. We're funding 5300 health professionals in Palestine.

We. Michael Barber, my noble friend Lord Barber is working there too. But the thing I really want to stress in relation to, to what my noble friend says is the importance of civil society and the importance. Because when I travel in that region, it. Many, many people in Israel, in the Palestinian territories, in Lebanon and so on, they don't share the views of their governments and the various actors in in the area. So tomorrow, I'm happy to to say that the Foreign Secretary, along with Canada and Australia, will be launching a peace building fund, which seeks to work specifically with civil society in in Israeli and Palestinian communities.

And I greatly welcome that.

16:49

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

- -

Lords Minister mention. >> Million. >> Extra funding that is going to go. >> To the Palestinian Authority. Can he please explain why this government is making that payment without first requiring the Palestinian Authority to comply with the demands of this country, the EU and the United States to address governance concerns so as to remove not just inefficiency, but also corruption, and why we are paying that money. When the Palestinian Authority refuses to abandon its outrageous policy of paying the families of convicted murderers.

16:50

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Well, on the on the prisoner >> Well, on the on the prisoner payments, the government does not support those, as I'm sure there are no more, Lord knows, and we are no more, Lord knows, and we have addressed that issue directly with the Palestinian Authority. So we hope that that that that is not something that's going to continue. On the wider point, though, I think the the I suppose the sense I have of what the noble Lord is asking me is really whether we should require more of the Palestinian Authority before we part with large sums of money and so on.

I think, I think, to be direct about that. My answer to that is we are committed to the two state solution. The Palestinian Authority needs our support. Without that, there is no prospect for the two state solution, including a change in the approach settlements on the West Bank. I know it's not comfortable. I'm not pretending it is. I'm not suggesting that this is all straightforward and he knows I'm not. But I think we do feel we should get behind the Palestinian Authority within the reasonable bounds of what is proper.

16:51

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

- -

From the Liberal Democrats. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you, my Lord. Thank you for the Minister replying. Can I for the Minister replying. Can I start with Lebanon? There's talk about how Lebanese army and the Lebanese government should do this and do that. But could the Minister reply how governments of the UK have reduced aid to Lebanon and with all right talking what they should do? But the Lebanese army has had aid reduced to it, and staying on Lebanon.

The problem that with Lebanon, in a nutshell, is that Hezbollah are very active in the south of Lebanon, the north of Israel, and no one is talking about the Israeli villages, kibbutzim in northern Israel, which are evacuated, which are under attack, and what Israel is doing, rightly or wrongly, is defending the people of northern Israel. And what is needed is that Hezbollah should do what was agreed originally, that they should stay on the Beirut side of the Litani River.

If they stayed on the Beirut side of the Tierney River, then they would be less contact and less reason for Israel to attack. So please, can the Minister help us by telling us how we can resolve this? Yeah.

16:52

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Thank you. >> Thank you. >> On the question about about Hezbollah, I think I've made the Hezbollah, I think I've made the government's view clear on the question again about our support for Lebanon. We have provided, as I think the noble Lord knows, a great deal of financial assistance, assistance over many years to the Lebanese government and the Lebanese army, and we are still committed to supporting them. He knows, as we all know, what what the pressures are in terms of development aid and the decisions the government's taken.

But I don't think it would be fair to say that the government has not supported the Lebanese government. On the question about northern Israel, of course, we do want to see territorial integrity in those communities, and we do understand the pressures they're under, but we want to see territorial integrity in in the whole neighbourhood.

16:53

Lord Swire (Conservative)

- -

Of the two state. >> Solution is still. >> The only way forward. And that is certainly my belief. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, not concede that if the e one if the building in the E one area, 3000 new houses goes ahead, that effectively will build out any chance of a two state solution ever. And given that that I think that is a fact, does he not think that yesterday in the statement, the Foreign Secretary could have gone a bit further and rather advise British companies and British citizens from taking part in the construction or the purchase of any property in the illegal e one

16:54

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Area. It should have been made illegal. illegal. >> I. I don't want to take a doom laden view on this, but I think the laden view on this, but I think the Prime Minister and the leaders of other countries have made it very clear. What the consequences of E1 going ahead will be. And that is why we are against it, and that is why we've set our position now, clearly. I don't I wouldn't want to go quite as far as the noble Lord does in saying, well, that ruins all hope.

Hope of the of the two state solution. But it is very serious. On the other point he made, and this point was made extensively in the other place, why don't we ban this altogether? I think the government's view, and I want to be completely straightforward about this, it is that there is legitimate trade with Israel and legitimate activities with Israel and civil society, and we don't want to compromise those. But I would say that we will if if if this advice is insufficient to put it.

If I can put it like that, we will we will review it and keep it under review. We are completely clear, as I've already said, and I'm very happy to reinforce it. We don't want British companies involved in E1 or in any of the other settlements of the West Bank who will do will do what is necessary. Can I just come back very quickly to the noble Lord Lord Pannick? I've got the official answer to your question here, so I'd better read it out for the record, to prevent myself getting into trouble on prisoner payments.

We welcome the important, important commitments made by the Palestinian Authority to reform prisoner payments so that welfare payments are need needs based and delinked from violent actions. So I hope, I hope I've made that clear, and I won't have to correct myself. Lord.

16:56

Lord Craig of Radley (Crossbench)

- -

If I may. Crossbench. >> If I may. Crossbench. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, my Lords. At the start of the American operation start of the American operation against Iran, Her Majesty's Government refused the use of some bases, including RAF Fairford and Diego Garcia. Since then, permission has been granted to the Americans. Does that permission still stand and will it stand until operations against Iran are complete?

16:57

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

The Prime Minister has made it clear that that we. This is not our clear that that we. This is not our war, and we will only permit use of our bases for defensive reasons, and that remains the position of the government. It hasn't changed.

16:57

Lord Polak (Conservative)

- -

Well. >> The noble Lord. In a previous answer he said, it's difficult to go to Israel. Well, El al fly you did. El al fly twice a day from Heathrow. And I'm sure any government Minister who wishes to go can go to Israel. But in the. In the statement, the Foreign Secretary said that the Minister for the Middle East was due to go to a meeting, I think today to the Charity commissioners chief

16:57

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

executive, to specifically discuss UK charities having links in UK charities having links in disputed areas. So. But can I ask the noble Lord to come back to me and to the House to explain whether the said Minister raised the issue the said Minister raised the issue of charities in the UK supporting the IRGC, supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, supporting Palestinian rejectionists or dare I say, is it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

just Jewish charities that are concerning the government? I I'm sure I did not mean to say

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I I'm sure I did not mean to say it's difficult to go to Israel even if I did say it. So I'm very happy for the helpful advice on that. I for the helpful advice on that. I think the noble Lord knows what I intended or meant, which is that, you know, this is a complex dynamic you know, this is a complex dynamic and who we talk to when it's not straightforward. On the question of the Charity Commission, the meeting the Charity Commission, the meeting took place this morning.

I can confirm it was not confined to charities that support West Bank settlements. I'm very happy to to ask the department to write to the noble Lord about the others, but I know it did involve some some of the places and charities, the activities that he's talking about, I wasn't there, obviously.

16:59

Baroness Deech (Crossbench)

- -

The crossbench from the >> The crossbench from the crossbenchers cross the pointless. Recognition of Palestine, which ran counter to international law and has made no difference at all. And it. There was no Jewish access to holy places. They were deliberately desecrated. And the thought of that happening again is really too dreadful. And it is about time that the government came to terms with the possibility of a two state solution. If 2 million Arabs can live in Israel peacefully, why can't some Israeli settlers, as they're called, live in Palestine? If it is ever created without any trouble?

16:59

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

Well, the government's view, as I think the noble Lady knows, is that we do support the two state solution. That is why we recognise Palestine. I know she's a long standing critic of that position. I understand her scepticism, but that that is the government's view. And we do we do want to try and make that work on Jerusalem. Of course, it's important that these that Jerusalem, Jerusalem is the most important city for many, many people of many, many faiths around the world.

And of course, we should

**** Possible New Speaker ****

want to see it protected. Lord Spellar. Baroness Prosser. We want to

17:00

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

- -

>> Baroness Prosser. We want to hear from her. >> We'll hear from the Lib Dems. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Press. The Minister in terms of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

potential sanctions and. My Lords. We've just. Had a conservative contributor

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Had a conservative contributor Democrats. Thank you. Order.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

There's been plenty of conservative contributions. I just want to press the Minister in terms of you said that you would of you said that you would regularly review the potential action for those people involved in illegal settlement activities. Would you commit to reviewing that Would you commit to reviewing that on a monthly basis? As asked by my colleague Calum Miller in the other

**** Possible New Speaker ****

place. I don't think I am quite the authority to give that commitment authority to give that commitment on behalf of the government today, but I can and he knows. And as I think I said in my opening response to Lord Purvis, I'm not going to give a running commentary on future give a running commentary on future arrangements about sanctions. That's not the government's view. But but as you as I've said, we are But but as you as I've said, we are we are at the forefront in relation to West Bank settlements, and we to West Bank settlements, and we will continue to, to, to to review it as necessary.

17:01

Lord Lemos (Labour)

- -

We will.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Motion Motion for Motion for debate. Autism Act 2009 Committee report.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Autism Act 2009 Committee report. On the New. Autism Strategy. Baroness Rock. My Lords.

17:03

Debate: Report from the Autism Act 2009 Committee Time to deliver: The Autism Act 2009 and the new autism strategy

>> My Lords. >> I'm absolutely delighted. >> To introduce this important and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To introduce this important and very timely debate, and I'd like to start off by thanking the members of the committee for their very of the committee for their very hard work, their dedication, and their thoughtfulness. I would also like to thank our specialist adviser, Professor Laura Crane, who is the professor of Autism Studies in the School of Education at the University of Birmingham, for her expert guidance, our outstanding staff team, Stuart Stoner, Lucy

17:03

Baroness Rock (Conservative)

- -

Valsamidis, Abdullah Ahmad Clayton Gurney and Aneela Mahmood for their incredible support. But my Lords, incredible support. But my Lords, most of all, I would like to thank everyone who engaged with our everyone who engaged with our inquiry. We were constantly struck by the very moving and powerful testimonies without. All of those who engaged, our report would just not have been possible. My Lords, the Autism Act 2009 is a landmark law for and about autistic people. The act began as a private members bill and won government support thanks to the tireless efforts of its sponsor, the late right Hon Cheryl Gillan MP, and we pay enormous tribute to her today.

The act requires the government to produce an autism strategy for England, backed up by statutory guidance. Our committee's task was to examine how well the act has been implemented and to inform the development of a new autism strategy ahead of the expiry of the current strategy, which is this July next month. A key priority for us was to carry out our inquiry in partnership with autistic people and support those who and and those who support them. My Lords, we took oral evidence from incredibly nearly 70 witnesses, and we received written evidence from almost 400 individuals and organisations.

Several thousand people also contributed through surveys and consultation exercises. I think that speaks volumes for the engagement and the importance of the of the topic. We also spoke in private to dozens of autistic people and those who support them, including invaluable visits to Care Trades employment scheme at Saint Thomas's Hospital, just over the river, and to Phoenix School in Tower Hamlets. My Lords, when the Autism Act was passed, autistic people were often invisible. The act really helped change that, making government recognise and respond to their needs.

When the act was passed, about 1 in 100 people were estimated to be autistic. Diagnosis rates are now higher than that among younger people, but still far lower among older people. That rise is in part because of our understanding of autism, and it has evolved. But there are also worrying signs that more autistic people are struggling. The inequalities are unacceptable and in many cases, widening. More than 270 000 people are now waiting for an autism assessment. Only about 3 in 10 autistic people are in work.

On average, autistic people live shorter lives. My Lords, the government Autism Strategy for 2021 to 2026 set out laudable ambitions decided in consultation with autistic people and their families. But after the first year, successive governments produced no plans to deliver or fund the strategy. It is now time to change that. Our central recommendation is that the government must deliver a new autism strategy taking effect when the current strategy expires next month. The Minister for care, Stephen Kinnock MP, assured us that the government is absolutely committed to there being a strategy and to there being an implementation plan, he said.

And I quote him, the strategy we will bring forward is being shaped as we speak. The government will be developing the strategy in 2026, and the input from the committee will help us shape that strategy. But and I am sad that I have to say, but the government's response to our report was markedly vaguer, saying we recognise that meaningful engagement will take time, so a balance will need to be struck as to what level of further engagement is required, and the current strategy will remain in force while we do this.

My Lords, this is simply just not good enough. The strategy's expiry date is now weeks away, and we seem closer to delivering for autistic people. Baroness, the Minister tell the House what will happen when the current strategy expires. When will the new strategy come into effect? How is the government ensuring that the new strategy reflects the findings of our report? How the government will meaningfully involve autistic people and those who support them in the development of the new strategy, and, most importantly, how the government will ensure accountability for delivering the change.

Autistic people need to see. Our report examined progress against the ambitions in the 2021 Autism Strategy, and I would like to address these each in turn. First, we considered how to improve public understanding. Awareness of autism has rapidly grown in recent years, but public understanding has not kept pace. My Lords, the 2021 Autism Strategy promised a public understanding and acceptance initiative, but that never materialised. Sadly, many told us that stigma has since increased. We called on the government to run a public understanding campaign and to commission and evaluate mandatory training for public facing staff.

The government told us it would consider this recommendation further. Inaction is inexcusable. So will the Minister clarify what concrete action the government will now take to deliver a public understanding campaign and ensure effective training for public facing staff? Second, we examine systems for identification, assessment and support. Time and time again, we heard from our witnesses how powerful the powerful evidence of how autism diagnosis changes lives. However, the autism assessment system can also be a bottleneck, giving overstretched services a means to ration access to support.

My Lords, the assessment system is now just unfit for purpose. Thousands wait for years for a diagnosis and receive little to no support, even when it comes. So we called for the government to move towards a stepped, lifelong model of support. But many fear moving away from a diagnosis led model will become an excuse to withhold what little support now exists. The government's independent review into mental health, ADHD and autism could offer a real opportunity for a new approach.

So I would welcome the Minister explaining how the government will reform and rebuild our broken systems for autism identification, assessment and support in partnership with autistic people and those who support them. Third, we considered how to reduce health inequalities and the life expectancy gap. My Lords, we were truly honoured to take evidence from Paula McGowan OBE, who campaigned successfully for the introduction of the Oliver McGowan mandatory training for health and care staff after her son's tragic death. We pay tribute to Paula and to Oliver's memory.

We must build on this progress. So will the Minister now commit to setting out a plan to enable autistic people to live healthier, longer lives? Many autistic people still fall into the cracks, being between mental health and social care services. And too often this leads to crisis. We heard truly courageous testimony from many young autistic people who had been detained for years in mental health hospitals. We called for a national framework for low level support to prevent care needs from developing and to build, and for a plan to build strong community services, including appropriate housing for people at risk of in-patient care of inpatient admission.

Apologies. The government's response promised only an annual statement on implementation of the Mental Health Act and, in the longer term, a National Care service. But neither of those is a plan. So will the Minister tell us how the government will stop unnecessary detention in mental health units once and for all? Next, we examined how to secure equal access to education and employment. My Lords, we are setting up a new generation of young autistic people to struggle. Thousands are unhappy at school or out of school altogether.

The Right Honourable Alan Milburn's recent review starkly showed how we are failing the million young people who are not in employment, education or training. A disproportionate number of them are autistic. We recommended that the government build up capability for educating autistic children and young people in all settings, supporting the best special schools to become centres of excellence. The government's planned reforms to the Sen system offer a real opportunity to make schools more inclusive, but we also know how worried many are about changes to their rights to specialist support.

So it is vital that reforms are taken forward in partnership with young autistic people and their families. Young autistic people consistently told us how they face what they describe as a cliff edge in access to support when they become adults and into the world of work. We called on the government to develop integrated services to help them through this critical transition. So can the Minister tell us how the government will ensure every young autistic person has the support that they need to give them the very best start into adult life, including implementing the recommendations of the Keep Britain Working review? Finally, we looked at improving support in the criminal justice system.

Like anyone else, autistic people can come into contact with the criminal justice system as victims, as witnesses or as offenders. But autistic people's needs are often unmet, leaving them at risk of disproportionate disadvantage. I welcome efforts to to deliver the cross-government neurodiversity action plan for adults in the criminal justice system. But the reality is that support does remain patchy. So will the Minister tell us how the government will ensure the criminal justice system treats every autistic person fairly? My Lords, the 2021 Government Autism Strategy set a goal that every autistic person should have the support they need to live to live a full and happy life.

Together, we really can make that a reality. But to do that, we need a new strategy, a credible plan to deliver it, and clear accountability for change. It is time to deliver the change that autistic people in this country need to see. My Lords, I beg to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

move. The question is that this motion be agreed to. My Lords.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords. Can I begin by declaring an interest? I'm a vice president of the National Autistic Society, an the National Autistic Society, an honour I share with my noble friend Baroness Browning. And more than that, can I thank Baroness Browning for her work in persuading the Liaison Committee to agree to set up this Committee of inquiry in the up this Committee of inquiry in the first place? She and I started out working together on that, but when I was appointed leader of the British delegation to the Council of Europe, Baroness Browning alone did the heavy lifting and I thank

17:15

Lord Touhig (Labour)

- -

her for that. I thank the chair of the committee and the committee who have come forward with a report have come forward with a report that is imaginative and shows us a that is imaginative and shows us a way forward. My Lords, autistic young people can thrive in the young people can thrive in the right environment and collapse in the wrong one. Those were the words of just quoted in his interim of just quoted in his interim report, Young People in Work.

The report revealed that among young people who are not in employment, education or training, 22% cited autism as their main limiting condition. Milburn went on to say the benefits assessments lend themselves to a binary judgement of whether a person is able or unable to work, but this approach does not match the reality of many young peoples life changing conditions. Autism is a life changing condition, my Lords. Just ten, just seven rather out of ten people. Autistic people are in work.

Where I want to be in work, seven out of ten want to be in work. But only three out of ten are actually in work. Now, like many, I want to see the autistic people in a job building a building up their confidence and giving them the opportunity to enjoy the quality of life that we all accept. The recommendations in this report offers us hope of progress, and I certainly hope with a big capital H. Hope to see a more positive response from the government than we've seen so far.

The Autism Act was a critical step forward in the recognition of autistic people. Yet successive governments have failed to deliver the change. And can I say with the greatest respect to my noble friend on the front bench and the greatest respect to the noble Lord will be responding for the opposition. I can tell them that Dame Cheryl Gillan, who took the autism Bill through Parliament and with whom I served on the Council of Europe, where we produced a major report on the problems autistic people are facing across Europe.

Dame Cheryl would certainly have had plenty to say that failures of governments of all parties, if she were with us today and she would be telling Ministers to take this report's recommendations seriously and engage with the charitable and voluntary sector to embrace the reforms it proposes. For me, my most immediate concern is the autism strategy. It's the key to deciding priorities and making sure those priorities are delivered. The Act placed a strict legal duty on the government to prepare and regularly review a national strategy to meet the needs of autistic people by improving local services.

And it is alarming, isn't it? It is alarming to realise that after the first year of the 2126 strategy, there was no plan to deliver or fund it. That's a scandal. This strategy will end soon, and the government says it will remain in place until a new strategy is agreed. Of that new strategy, the government says, meaning engagement will take place. But how long will that take? How long will we have to wait? In response to the report, the government praises the committee for the large amount of evidence it gathered.

So in view of that, can I ask my noble friend to use that evidence, much of it given to the Committee by autism charities and experts in caring and supporting people with autism and their families, use it in working up the new strategy. And I can tell you, it will save countless hours of research by your civil servants. The committee has done the work for you. Use the work that the committee has done. My Lords, the report points the way in which we should all embrace and welcome.

It calls for the new strategy to identify priority outcomes and produce a costed, deliverable plan to achieve those outcomes. The strategy should make clear who is responsible and accountable for delivering. Now, to me, that's common sense. But having said that, I remember when I was growing up, my mother would say to me, son, in life sense is not that common. But despite that, can I plead with my noble friend, please take the common sense approach. Use the findings of this report to build on the new strategy and do it right away.

17:19

Lord Hope of Craighead (Crossbench)

- -

My Lord. committee under the chairmanship of the noble Baroness, lady Rock. It's not only because. >> Of the outstanding.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Way in which our work was guided by her and supported by our clerk, our policy analyst and our our policy analyst and our specialist adviser, but also because of the extent to which that team brought us into contact with so many autistic people and others with lived experience, which, of course, was what our committee was all about. The initiatives were taken by our team, went far beyond what normally happens in committee work. There is an important point that needs to be made here.

There will be other cases where the lived experience of those whose issues a committee is considering will matter very much. Hence our invitation to the relevant committees to consider ways in which such meaningful involvement can be achieved in the future, if necessary, by making changes to the current rules. It's impossible. In the few minutes I have to go over every issue that is discussed in this report, but as I look back over our work, there are 1 or 2 points to which I would like to draw attention.

The first relates to the importance of diagnosis. The benefits this may bring, and the harm that may be done by a failure to diagnosis before other interventions are resorted to that may be wholly unsuitable. One of our autistic witnesses had spent four years in a mental hospital before diagnosis, which revealed what their condition really was. For obvious reasons, we did not explore the reasons for the mistaken placement in that hospital. Such an unsuitable person for an autistic person to be in.

But the dramatic change that enabled that person to lead as normal a life as possible following release from hospital was deeply moving. The new autism strategy to be developed by the government must ensure that mistakes of that kind do not occur again. The other side of the coin was revealed during a visit to a special school for children and young people. All its pupils have a diagnosis of autism or are waiting for one, and all of them have complex needs and are disadvantaged academically.

We met a group of parents who told us of the effect that early diagnosis had had on them and their children. As one parent put it before the diagnosis, I was just talking to my son after diagnosis. I am talking with him. Lord Rose what had been an unreachable child had become reachable once the reason for the condition was explained and understood. The new autism strategy needs to address the problem that far too often access to diagnosis is not available. Early diagnosis can make all the difference not only to the child, but also to the family.

I turn next to the matter of employment. The government's new autism strategy should make an increase in the employment rate for autistic people a priority objective. Some of our witnesses drew attention to the risks that taking on an autistic person would involve, to fears that they would be unlikely to fit in, and the disadvantages that they face in. The recruitment process. But there is a really positive case to be made here, which should point the way forward. A witness from Babcock International, a major employer speaking as the neurodiversity and social mobility manager, told us that around 20 to 30% of their employees are neurodivergent, a remarkable number.

They include some brilliantly talented people who, as he told us, challenge the stereotypes of autism and have been able to solve problems that no other, no other engineer could. This positive message needs to be broadcast and built upon by the government. With the right support and in the right place. Autistic people have so much good to give to this country. They are valued members of the community and have turned us to mention one other matter which relates to the understanding of autism and the fact that, of course, every autistic person is different.

There is no one size that fits all. This matters very much in education, especially those who are teaching autistic children who are in mainstream schools. These people may struggle if their needs and fears are not appreciated and addressed. As each case is different, the teacher has to be given time to assess the child, to win their confidence and find out what is wrong. The pressures on the curriculum too often mean that the much needed time is certainly not available.

That needs to be changed and the government needs to address that, but in the proper way, so that the teachers can really give these people what they need to develop their education and move forward to employment.

17:24

Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru)

- -

My Lords, I am very grateful for this opportunity to speak in this this opportunity to speak in this short debate as I was to serve on the Select committee, although I did experience certain frustrations. did experience certain frustrations. But I thank the Baroness Rock for her huge commitment to autism and her huge commitment to autism and the balanced way in which she chaired the committee. I also thank the clerk, advisers, researchers and staff who had to cope with a huge volume of evidence and of witnesses who appeared before us.

And I also thank the numerous organisations who gave us such evidence in person and in written form. May I acknowledge also the debt which we had to Baroness Browning, who has campaigned on these issues for several decades and who was instrumental in getting the 2009 act onto the statute book. I mentioned frustration, and this arose from having been involved for several years in Autism Cymru and from being a member of this House who was not domiciled in England.

And in my 27 years in the Commons, I was heavily involved, of course, in disability campaigning and on returning to the chamber in 2011. I look forward to resuming such campaigning work, not least in association with the much loved late Lord Rix at Mencap. But on returning, I found myself in no man's land because many aspects of disability politics had been devolved. As stated in paragraph 31 of the report, the UK government's autism strategy applies to England only. So as noble Lords may appreciate, my role in the committee was at times limited, sometimes a cause of personal frustration.

I have put this on the record as it might be relevant to the authorities of the House when they select members to serve on such England only committees in future. The Committee did invite and did receive evidence from the governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland which was appreciated, but which could only be tangential to this inquiry. I do regret the very limited consideration given by our Committee to the international practices, which I raised at an early stage because of the huge benefits I personally had experienced as a member of the Brussels based Autism Europe in representing autism on that committee.

I learnt a huge amount relating to good practice in European countries, including many outside the EU. It is my feeling that we could have benefited in considering what lessons we can learn from such European countries. As soon as it was public, I passed a copy of our report to a senior member of Autism Europe, Mrs. Leigh Berzina of Latvia, which stated that there are certain aspects of autism policies in England which rightly get international praise, such as the Autism Act, the ongoing development of a national autism strategy and the Sendai framework of educational, health and care plans.

From her experience, a key dimension is that every school should have an additional learning needs coordinator with support delivered through individual development plans. And just as other countries benefit from studying experience in England, so surely we can at Westminster benefit from considering successful initiatives in other countries too. With regard to the welter of evidence submitted to us, I had three abiding thoughts. Firstly, of all the challenges and experiences we were trying to encapsulate in an integrated approach. There needs to be a flexibility to cope with a huge diversity of challenges and opportunities facing those on the spectrum.

Such policy applications must therefore be local and as it is related to individual needs. My Lords. Secondly, we must always see the abilities and potential of those who experience such challenges. It is quite stimulating to receive evidence from such witnesses, and that underscores our responsibility to secure from government a fitting response. Thirdly, our aspirations cannot be secured without additional resources. The magnitude of the cohort, crudely described as being on the spectrum, has grown hugely as our understanding of individual needs has matured.

And as these individuals get the opportunity to blossom. Such policies in due course bear fruit. If government. If the government merely responds, there is no more available cash. They simply have their priorities wrong. My Lords, despite my doubts about serving on this committee for the reasons outlined, I do support the recommendations and hope that the government give them an urgent and positive response.

17:29

Baroness Dacres of Lewisham (Labour)

- -

My Lords. today I expand it to Neurodivergence. We are speaking about people with their own strengths, challenges, perspectives and ways of experiencing the world. One point that has stayed with me came from a teacher who described the autistic spectrum as being like a unique combination of different balloons carried by each individual person. Some balloons may represent communication, sensory processing, anxiety, social interaction, confidence, and learning styles. The combination is different for every person. The report rightly highlights that many neurodivergent people continue to experience

Feed Live - Click to view video

Return to start of debate - Return to top of page