Dormant Assets Bill [HL]
Baroness Barran ExcerptsMonday 21st June 2021
(2 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Dormant Assets Act 2022 View all Dormant Assets Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 3-II(Rev) Revised second marshalled list for Grand Committee - (21 Jun 2021)
Baroness Barran
“(3A) In subsection (3)(a) “amount owing” includes an amount available to be paid as benefits under a personal pension scheme (see section 6(1)(c) and (3)).”Member’s explanatory statement
This would ensure that the overview of the dormant assets scheme in Clause 1 reflects Clause 6, which covers amounts available to be paid as pension benefits even though the owner has not made an election as to how the benefits are to be received.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, on 14 June I tabled minor and technical amendments to the Bill, which are needed to ensure that it works properly. These included changes for clarity and consistency, and updates to references and consequential amendments. I set these amendments out in my letter to your Lordships on the same day.
The changes, for clarity, can be grouped into three categories. The first group includes Amendments 1, 2, 3, 5, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, 30, 31, 42 and 46. These amendments clarify that amounts owing or payable to a person include those which are not immediately owing or payable until some action is taken. The second group includes Amendments 16 to 20, as well as Amendments 75 and 77. These amendments clarify that orphan moneys would arise in the context of a sub-fund of an umbrella structure. This is because an umbrella structure is effectively a shell structure, and it is the sub-fund of it that would be authorised under the Financial Services and Markets Act. The third group includes Amendments 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 25, 26, 27, 33, 35, 36 and 44. These amendments clarify that lifetime ISA provisions apply in the context of access restrictions and to client moneys; in other words, restrictions on assets held within lifetime ISAs apply when their transfer to the Reclaim Fund Ltd would trigger a withdrawal charge payable to HMRC. With that, I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
My Lords, I was going to crave the indulgence of the Grand Committee in trying to hang on to my fast-disappearing status as a new, inexperienced Member: I wanted to provide an opportunity for a debate on Clause 1, on the overview of the scheme, and I was going to do that by stand part or by putting down an amendment—but I got the timetable wrong and I failed to do so. However, other people have come to my aid, in that there will be sufficient opportunities later in the Bill’s progress to raise the issues that I would have raised here had I got my act together.
I will mention the main issues that I have in mind. Of course, I mentioned them at Second Reading, but the ability to repeat points seems to be one of the great assets of this process that we go through. The first issue that I will come back to at an appropriate time is the whole structure that leads to this situation. We can have a lot of discussion about the process of the dormant assets scheme, but we need to address the question of why dormant assets appear in the first place. It would be wrong to have a full debate on the scheme without at least reflecting, to some extent, on that issue.
In the government consultation and in preceding debates that led to the Bill there has been a lot of discussion by various people about what the financial institutions are doing to make sure that this issue does not arise. In general terms, there has been a lot of discussion of that issue—well, perhaps not a lot—but I am not sure that it really gets anywhere. Everyone expresses intentions, but how detailed the planning is to avoid it happening is a separate issue.
However, I think there is a stage before that. Why do we have a structure that leads to this sort of end result? The fact that this can happen is something that bears investigation—not just because it has happened but what we can do about it—as does the extent to which the financial institutions seem, in one way or another, to try to shift the blame to individuals. There are questions about what we can we do so that it does not happen in the first place, and I will come back to that at a later stage, possibly this afternoon—and I will try not to repeat myself too much.
The other issue is additionality. There has not been nearly enough discussion of what exactly is meant by additionality; there is no clear structure as to how it is defined. I will take the opportunity at a later stage to raise and discuss that issue as well. So I am really just putting these issues on the table and saying that, at the appropriate time, I will raise them at a later stage of the process.
Since I am here and speaking, I will ask something. The Bill was published effectively only a few days ago, yet we end up with this extensive raft of minor technical amendments, which makes the job of understanding what the Bill is doing extremely difficult—twice or three times as difficult. The grid that we have been supplied with for today’s session is extremely useful, but getting it only an hour before the meeting reduces its value. If I had been quick, I would have ticked off which amendments fall into which of the groups that the Minister has identified. It would have been helpful if we had had it earlier and the different groups had been identified on that list. Perhaps we could have that in arrears, as it were.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords for their interventions. Like the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, I still feel like a newbie here, so I hope on that basis that we will both be given a little leeway.
I think that the central point of all of your Lordships’ comments was about the number of technical amendments, and a request for greater clarification—particularly, in the case of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in relation to lifetime ISAs. I will say three things in that regard. The first, as I said in my letter of 14 June, is that in no way do these amendments change the policy intent of the Bill. In some ways this Bill is not complicated, but in other ways it cuts across a number of policy areas, and that is apparent in the number of government amendments.
The second point on which the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, asked for reassurance was that we would not be having another slew of government amendments on Report. I cannot that there will not be any more: I think there may be a very small number—but it will be a very small number. Thirdly, I undertake to write to your Lordships between now and Report and address in a bit more detail the impact of these amendments.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would ensure that the description of pension assets in Clause 1(5)(c) includes the right to elect how to receive pension benefits.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My Lords, I thank your Lordships for your proposals on reviewing various aspects of the dormant assets scheme, and for raising the important issue of transparency. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I will try to organise the amendments into different groups, because I believe that they cover three aspects of reporting. The first relates to regular reporting to Parliament on the operation of the scheme. The second relates to the role of reporting as a mechanism for encouraging further expansion of the asset classes that are eligible for inclusion in the scheme. The third relates to reporting in relation to the impact of the scheme.
On the first aspect, I turn to Amendments 61, 62 and 65, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Kramer, which call for a regular government report on the scheme’s operations, including, for example, the amounts transferred into the scheme, by whom they were transferred, how they have been applied and the amounts reclaimed from RFL. I am grateful to your Lordships for raising these issues, and certainly agree on the importance of such transparency.
We believe that there are a number of mechanisms already in place for reporting on the scheme’s operations. Some of them are well established. For example, as the scheme administrator, RFL publishes annual reports that set out, among other metrics, the amounts it receives from participants and the value of reclaims. Other mechanisms have only recently been set up with RFL’s establishment as an arm’s-length body of the Treasury. For example, the Government will now be monitoring RFL’s delivery against the scheme’s objectives on a quarterly basis. In addition, the relevant Select Committee can always probe the working of the scheme at any point, and the Bill may be subject to post-legislative scrutiny, which takes place between three and five years after Royal Assent. In addition, starting in the current financial year, RFL will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who will be able to report to the House of Commons the result of any value-for-money assessment it carries out. This will enhance Parliament’s oversight of RFL’s delivery of the scheme.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, asked about the transposition of Section 14 from the original Act into this Bill. As he noted, the original Act required the Treasury to undertake a review of the legislation and lay it before Parliament within three years of the date that the reclaim fund was first authorised—and this review was indeed published in 2014.
I have tried to set out a number of the mechanisms that are now in place for reporting on the scheme’s operations, and we believe that these combined efforts do provide a greater level of transparency on the scheme’s operations and allow for flexibility in monitoring RFL’s delivery of the scheme as it works on the phased introduction and implementation of these new and more complex assets. By tightly prescribing the timing for carrying out such a review, an equivalent to Section 14 would, we believe, have a potentially limiting impact.
However, the basic principle that I have heard from your Lordships this afternoon is the importance of transparency and robust reporting—how much money, where is it coming from, what is the asset type, what is the purpose and what is the reclaim experience? We believe that all these points are covered, but we are anxious that your Lordships should agree that they are transparent and easy to access. So I am very happy to meet your Lordships ahead of Report to go through this in more detail and make sure that our understanding of the transparency that we believe the current reporting mechanisms offer indeed aligns with what your Lordships seek.
I will now turn to Amendments 4, 45 and 61, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and my noble friend Lady Noakes, relating to the role of reporting in encouraging further expansion of the scheme. Over the past five years, the Government and the reclaim fund have worked closely with industry on the scope and design of an expanded scheme, and I am extremely grateful for their hard work and dedication in helping to realise these very ambitious plans. While our industry stakeholders are keen to maintain momentum, they have consistently recommended a phased approach to expansion. This will allow participants to deepen their understanding of the scheme and to implement new processes progressively. This also enables RFL to build experience managing these new and more complex assets.
Decisions on which assets should be included in the future will depend on a number of factors, including identifying asset classes with high instances of dormancy and then setting the dormancy definitions for, and quantifying the value of, such assets. Consideration may also be given to whether other mechanisms for dealing with dormancy already exist and how these could interact with the scheme. Any further expansion will require the same close collaboration between the Government, the reclaim fund and industry, which has supported this phase of expansion.
The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, asked about the inclusion of additional asset classes, and my noble friend Lady Noakes strayed into the territory of state larceny—on which, obviously, I could not possibly comment. To be clear, at this stage the Government are not considering widening the net to include non-financial services assets. My noble friend talked about Oyster cards; the Bill contains a power to extend the scheme in future by way of regulations, and this obviously offers a more flexible avenue to reconsider whether some types of non-financial assets should be included in future. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, also asked about the potential to expand to other forms of pension. Occupational pensions are excluded under the scheme as they are trust based, belonging to a fund or a group of investors rather than a specific identifiable individual. Only contract-based pension schemes are within the scope of the Bill.
To date, bringing new assets into the scheme has required primary legislation. As I just mentioned, Clause 19 provides a power to extend the scheme without need for this. In future it will be subject to the draft affirmative procedure, rightfully allowing Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise such regulations before they are made. It is natural that we will continue to review which assets may be suitable for further expansion. I will consider the best mechanism and timing to achieve this, taking into account the implementation of this phase and RFL’s quarterly reporting to the Government.
Further to this, the UK Government remain committed to engaging with the devolved Administrations on any legislative proposals or statutory changes that could have an impact on transferred or devolved matters of competence. This is in line with the principles set out in the devolution memorandum of understanding between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. We will consult with the Northern Ireland Executive where the provision of any statutory instrument laid under Clause 19 will have an impact on transferred areas of competence in Northern Ireland—for example, the regulation of credit unions—with a view to obtaining mutual agreement on any approach before taking it forward.
Before I turn to Amendment 63 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, I would like to make sure that we are on the same page about the £750 million and the £150 million. The £750 million was funding from the Treasury for the charitable sector, including social enterprises. The £150 million was in addition to that; it came from dormant assets and was distributed to the existing organisations.
Amendment 63 considers the impact of the scheme. I reiterate my thanks to the noble Baroness for placing emphasis on having transparency and clarity in reporting on this issue. If I followed her question correctly, she asked why this was not in the Bill. As she knows, this is something that we proposed putting into secondary legislation, with the purposes being specified through a public consultation.
As your Lordships know, the scheme provides long-term flexible funding that enables expert organisations to focus on creating positive and systemic change. It is essential that this funding has a positive impact by contributing to the social and environmental initiatives for which it is designed. The independent spend organisations are regularly reviewed by the Oversight Trust, which is their parent body, to examine their effectiveness in delivering against their objectives. They are also subject to standard annual reporting requirements.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson asked a number of specific questions about the role of the Oversight Trust. He will be aware that it was set up relatively recently in its current form. I will cite the example of Fair4All Finance, which was established in February 2019 following widespread consultation with almost 100 organisations, and I am sure that, had the Oversight Trust existed at that time, it would have been part of that. I do believe that it has the powers necessary to look at the impact of the different distribution organisations. As my noble friend knows, the issue of measuring impact in this area—attribution versus contribution and all the other complexities—is genuinely very difficult, but we are extremely encouraged by some of the early reports from the Oversight Trust on the way that it has approached that. I will briefly comment on that now.
As I mentioned, the independent spend organisations are regularly reviewed by the Oversight Trust on their effectiveness in delivering against their objectives—that happens every four years—and they are also subject to standard annual reporting requirements. The Oversight Trust’s review of Big Society Capital was published in 2020. It reported that Big Society Capital had made substantial progress in catalysing development of the UK social investment marketplace, which was one of its primary original objectives. For example, social property funds, which did not exist at all in 2012, are now worth more than £2 billion.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
I naively had it in my mind when I spoke that I was speaking only to Amendment 4. I cannot come back on the substance of the amendments, but I have a couple of specific questions. First, in the formal consultation, and in the previous reviews, the Government said that they recognised
“the strong interest in the ways that funds can best be spent”,
even though it was outside the consultation, and that:
“Accordingly, we will consider whether this is an area that should be reviewed”—
in other words, other ways of spending the money. Is this what the Minister just referred to or is it a separate exercise that is being considered?
In the Second Reading debate, the Minister referred to the additionality principle in her introduction. She said:
“Money must fulfil the additionality principle, so it cannot be used as a substitute for central government funding.”—[Official Report, 26/5/21; cols. 1035.]
In response to the debate, she said:
“There was a lot of discussion about the additionality principle. This is set out in paragraph 9 of Schedule 3 to the 2008 Act and remains unchanged.”—[Official Report, 26/5/21; cols. 1084.]
Of course, I turned to the 2008 Act. It is far from explicitly set out; it is actually set out only at one remove. It refers to the need for the Big Lottery Fund to cover the issue in the annual report and to say how it complied with that requirement. It does not set out explicitly what is meant by additionality, so my second question is would it not be better to have a clear and specific definition of what is meant by additionality, given the emphasis the Government place on it as a pillar of the scheme?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his additional questions. He talked about other ways of spending the funds. I was talking about other causes; I am not sure whether we are using different words for the same thing. In the consultation that we are proposing, we will invite the public to name the issues they care about on which these funds should be used—the aim being to have that in secondary rather than primary legislation to make it a bit more flexible—as opposed to using different types of spend organisations. I was referring to the causes on which that will be spent.
I think that issues of additionality are likely to come up quite frequently, particularly on Wednesday, when we debate some of the other amendments. Perhaps we can take that issue in the round then, if the noble Lord is agreeable.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said it all, in the sense that this has been an extremely wide-ranging debate covering many topics, even though, as I said at the outset, we are fishing in the same pool here looking for a form of review. I thank the Minister for her very full, detailed and thorough response. I will have to read it carefully before deciding what to do about this subject area on Report.
I also thank her for the opportunity she has afforded us through her response of meeting and considering what other ways there may be to look at the impact of the dormant assets review and how we can best formulate it. I think she was inviting us to subscribe to an amendment that covers that point, but I am not sure yet. I look forward to having that discussion with her.
It is perhaps worth reflecting on comments that colleagues made. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, knows that I agree with her that there is not much point bringing forward amendments that lead to pointless reports unless those reports have an action at the end of them. That is why my amendment in particular calls for a review with the purpose of leading to something. That is why it is important that we have an early review. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked for a review now. “Now” may be in two years’ time after the Bill has passed—that would be about right—and periodic reviews thereafter.
The good thing about this legislation is that flexibility is brought into it. Although at the moment it is limited to financial products, in her response the Minister did not seem to rule out entirely that it might be extended to cover non-financial products. I liked the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, looking at things such as Oyster cards, gambling winnings and utility accounts. At Second Reading I raised that assets from criminal activity might be brought into the scheme. That is perhaps going a bit far at this stage, but we are all looking at ways in which we can expand dormant assets so that they can be used for a broader social purpose.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, was right to ask whether the powers are sufficient at the moment. I want to be confident that is right. As the Minister acknowledged, the Oversight Trust is very much in its early phase of development, though clearly it has done some important and valuable work so far.
The Minister said that transparency could be guaranteed through a number of routes: the RFL, Select Committees and post-legislative scrutiny. That is true—there is no doubt that those routes are available—but one of the reasons I am keen to see a review process built into the legislation is that we need to have that review in one place so that we can look across the piece in a more coherent and cohesive way, decide whether the dormant assets are having impact, determine whether there are other financial and non-financial assets that could be brought within its scope and see that there is a degree of transparency about the way in which the legislation is operating. That is why I am keen to see a review process.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, made a good point about the need to look at the derivation and application of funds: where from and why? That is really part of the thinking behind my amendment and, I think, other amendments in this group.
We have had a very good discussion on this. It is an important part of the legislation. I welcome the Minister’s offer of some discussions and restate my intent to bring back an amendment that captures the best of the other amendments and brings them to bear on how we move forward in reviewing how this legislation works. I am grateful to everybody for their interest and support on this. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Barran
“(9) In this Part—(a) any reference to an amount owing (or payable) to a person includes a reference to an amount which is not immediately payable to the person only because it is necessary for a request for payment to be made or for the person’s entitlement to payment to be verified, and(b) any reference to the right to payment of an amount owing (or payable) includes, in the case of an amount described in paragraph (a), the right to request payment of the amount.”Member’s explanatory statement
This would ensure that the provisions of Part 1 relating to transfers of dormant assets to an authorised reclaim fund cover not only cases where an amount is payable immediately (i.e. as a debt) but also cases where the person entitled to an amount needs to request payment, or that person’s entitlement needs to be verified, before the amount becomes payable immediately.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the government amendment at page 3, line 35.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would correct an inconsistency of expression between Clause 5(2)(a) and corresponding provisions elsewhere in Part 1, such as Clause 8(2)(a).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would correct a minor verbal error in Clause 7(5)(c), which should refer to “the benefits” i.e. the pension benefits mentioned in the opening words of Clause 7(5).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the government amendment at page 8, line 30.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This is a drafting amendment to secure consistency of expression across Part 1 of the Bill in consequence of the proposed removal of subsection (3) of Clause 12 by the government amendment to page 11, line 14.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the government amendment to leave out subsection (3) of Clause 12.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would correct an inconsistency of expression between Clause 14(2)(a) and corresponding provisions elsewhere in Part 1, such as Clause 8(2)(a).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would make the language in Clause 15(1) consistent with Clause 14(1)(a).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would make the language in Clause 16(3)(a) consistent with Clause 14(1)(a).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, with the government amendments at lines 9, 11, 14, 17 and 19 on page 14, would ensure that Clause 17 refers to the correct provisions of Part 1.
Baroness Barran
““withdrawal charge payable to HMRC” means a charge payable under paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the Savings (Government Contributions) Act 2017.”Member’s explanatory statement
This would define “withdrawal charge payable to HMRC” by reference to the primary legislation governing Lifetime ISAs.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This is a drafting amendment to secure greater consistency of expression in references to a person’s right to payment of a dormant amount owing.
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would amend the definition of “third party” in Clause 22(2) so that it refers to claims arising by virtue of Clause 5(3)(b), as well as those arising by virtue of Clause 5(2)(b).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would ensure that Clause 24(1) refers to claims arising by virtue of Clause 5(3)(b), as well as those arising by virtue of Clause 5(2)(b).
Baroness Barran
Member’s explanatory statement
This would amend the definition of “repayment claims” in Clause 25(3) so that it covers claims arising by virtue of Clause 5(3)(b), as well as those arising by virtue of Clause 5(2)(b).
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, it is always nice to be able to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. We have crossed swords many times, but I very much share one thing in common with her, and that is a desire to have an absolutely laser focus on getting value for money. So I am very supportive of her amendment; it certainly goes to the right place. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, touched on the importance of that in drawing our attention to remuneration levels within Reclaim Fund Ltd.
We need to be assured that we are getting value for money. Getting the Comptroller and Auditor-General involved in looking at the Reclaim Fund Ltd is a valuable use of the time of that body, because we need to better understand how funds are being used and be reassured that the best possible value for money is being secured. After all, this is a very significant funding mechanism and we need to ensure that, as part of it, the Reclaim Fund Ltd operates to the best and highest of standards. My noble friend Lord Davies is right that we need to focus on issues such as efficiency and effectiveness of spend, so I am very supportive of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 50 seeks to provide a power for the Comptroller and Auditor-General, the C&AG, to examine the Reclaim Fund Ltd for its economy, efficiency and effectiveness in using its resources to carry out its functions—also known as a value-for-money assessment—and to lay the result of the examination before Parliament.
I will first address the question on RFL’s auditors that my noble friend Lady Noakes asked at Second Reading. As set out in the Government’s framework agreement with RFL, which has been published in the Libraries of both Houses, the C&AG will audit the company’s accounts. This will be possible because of the explicit agreement made between RFL and the Treasury for such an arrangement. I hope that my noble friend will feel that that is sufficiently clear.
I know that my noble friend was also anxious to confirm that both the value-for-money assessment and the audit would be carried out by the same body, so, to continue in that vein, the C&AG may also carry out value-for-money assessments of the Reclaim Fund Ltd in the way proposed in subsection (1) in my noble friend’s amendment. The C&AG can carry out value-for-money assessments of public bodies under the National Audit Act 1983. The Act enables the C&AG to carry out value-for-money assessments of a body if there is an agreement between the body and a Minister of the Crown that requires the body’s accounts to be examined and certified by the C&AG and that enables value-for-money assessments to take place. This is set out in Section 6(3)(d) and 6(5) of the National Audit Act. An agreement has been made between the Treasury and RFL that meets these conditions of the Act, and this arrangement is outlined in the RFL/Treasury framework agreement.
Value-for-money assessments can be undertaken under Section 6 of the National Audit Act in relation to many public bodies, including UK Asset Resolution, the British Business Bank and S4C, the Welsh language broadcaster, to name but a few. In future, the Comptroller and Auditor-General will be able to undertake value-for-money assessments in relation to RFL.
Section 9 of the National Audit Act 1983 enables the Comptroller and Auditor- General to report to the House of Commons the result of any value-for-money assessment carried out under Section 6 of the Act. So, the provisions in the Act, which as I have already explained are applicable to RFL, also make provision for the Comptroller and Auditor- General to bring the results of the value-for-money assessments to the attention of the House of Commons.
My noble friend picked up on the location of RFL’s offices in St James’s. My understanding is that this is the registered address of the company secretary and that RFL is actually based in Crewe. I hope my noble friend sees that as a more cost-effective, dare I say levelling-up, option.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, this useful set of amendments will help us to tease out the relationship between Reclaim Fund Ltd, Parliament, the Treasury, and the Government. My probing amendment is in a slightly different direction from those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Noakes, but they sit comfortably next to each other.
I want to understand what the oversight mechanism is and what will be available to Parliament in the event of Reclaim Fund Ltd requiring money from the Treasury. We have heard that this will never happen, which I am sure is quite right—with the reserve level set at 40% it is extremely unlikely—but I too believe in prudence in the management of funds, and I would like to understand what oversight Parliament will be given. We need a position where we can discuss and debate how it is working. Will that be through some kind of annual report to Parliament? Would oversight by Parliament be triggered in the circumstances of a particular use of funds? Can we perhaps see a situation where there is an annual debate about Reclaim Fund Ltd and how the money has been distributed so that we could test whether the 40% reserve is right?
Parliament needs to be in a stronger position here. These amendments take us in that general direction, particularly the clever one tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, which would put the Treasury in the hot seat and ensure that we have a level of accountability enabling a regular look at how Reclaim Fund Ltd operates. I am looking forward to the Minister giving us not only some assurance but a guarantee that we will be able to see how the mechanism is working through a regular oversight session.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My Lords, before I turn to the detail of the amendments, I will respond to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about how Reclaim Fund Ltd invests its assets. The reserves are a mix between cash held at the Bank of England and an externally managed bond portfolio managed by Goldman Sachs asset management. All the assets are held to maturity. The portfolio is not actively traded to save on management fees and the portfolio follows environmental, social and governance principles. I hope that this comforts her or otherwise regarding the fund’s approach.
I turn now to the amendments. Amendments 51, 52 and 53 relate to Clause 27 of the Bill. These amendments seek to understand the oversight that Parliament will have over any loan that the Treasury provides to RFL, and intend to allow RFL to take into account the loan when considering its reserving policy. I will address the amendments together.
In recognition of RFL’s establishment as a Treasury non-departmental public body, the Bill introduces a new provision to provide that, in the event that an authorised reclaim fund is, or looks likely to be, unable to meet its reclaim liabilities, the Treasury would provide a loan to cover these liabilities.
On Amendment 52, from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, the Government agree that Parliament should have oversight of the Treasury loan. Parliament will already be sighted in respect of the loans made from the Treasury by virtue of this being recorded in its annual reports and accounts, which are laid before Parliament on a yearly basis. The terms and conditions of the loan will be set in line with usual Treasury practice, as set out in Managing Public Money. It would not be usual practice to provide the full terms of the loan, which may contain commercially sensitive information. Further transparency to Parliament is provided in the reclaim fund’s annual report and accounts, which, as we discussed earlier, are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
Amendments 51 and 53, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, and my noble friend Lady Noakes respectively, seek to understand the impact on RFL of a potential Treasury loan when setting its reserving policy. I will respond, first, by summarising the particular features that govern RFL’s reserving policy, and then turn to the implications on these of the Treasury loan. While the Government agree that as many dormant funds as possible should be channelled to good causes, we also fully recognise that the decision on how much money should be retained to meet reclaims should sit with RFL and not the Government. The RFL board is responsible for overseeing the process for changing the level of reserves, and RFL has confirmed that this is regularly revisited by the board.
I met recently with RFL. Following that meeting, I am satisfied that it follows diligent processes with respect to its reserving policy, which is based on an analysis of the relevant risk factors, actuarial modelling using both internal and independent actuarial advice, and Financial Conduct Authority guidance. This ensures that RFL can achieve its primary objective of meeting reclaims from owners at any time in the future. The fundamental principle that underpins RFL’s current approach to its reserving rates and investing policy is that it is required to meet reclaims in perpetuity. As your Lordships well understand, that makes it very different from, say, an insurance company. Therefore, it has to plan both for any normal trends in the reclaim experience and for any future stress scenarios that may occur, and model those accordingly.
Examples of such stress scenarios include developments in artificial intelligence that help to reunite more customers with their lost assets and, as we discussed in an earlier amendment, future changes in government data access, which could affect participant’s tracing efforts. Any stress scenario could result in a sudden increase in reclaims, and a combination of these scenarios would, of course, have a significant impact on RFL’s reserves. This is reflected in RFL’s regulatory permission and activities under which it is authorised to operate, with the purpose of ensuring that RFL has adequate financial resources to meet its ongoing reclaim obligations without placing it into undue financial distress or business failure.
While I recognise your Lordships’ interest in the current level of reclaim rates compared with money reserved, RFL has informed me that the cumulative reclaim rate is increasing and looks set to increase further in future years. RFL has reviewed and will continue to review its reserving policy regularly, using both internal and independent actuarial advice and modelling, to ensure that it is appropriately prudent and will continue to release as much money as responsibly possible to good causes across the UK, while retaining sufficient funds to meet reclaims. RFL’s remit is expanding to include previously unheld asset classes. I therefore understand why RFL has chosen not to amend its reserving policy at this time, although that decision remains solely with the company.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I hear what my noble friend the Minister has said—that she was speaking to my amendment and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, which both rely on the loans to reduce the amount of reserving. That is not what my amendment said at all. Mine was based on more explicitly recognising that the Treasury de facto now stands behind the company and that anything else is a complete fiction.
My noble friend talked about industry needing confidence in the scheme being independent of government. Frankly, the whole world has changed: the Treasury now owns 100% of the capital and it has been reclassified as public sector. The fact of life is that this is a public body and its “separate legal entity” nature is just a fiction.
If the Treasury wanted to release more for good causes, it could. That is at the heart of the issue; anything else is some form of dissembling. So I personally am not satisfied with the Minister’s response today. I do not think meeting the chief executive of the Reclaim Fund Ltd will get us any closer to the heart of the matter. The issue is: why will the Treasury not step up to the plate and recognise that it now carries responsibility for the amounts released, and that in public sector terms there is no good reason to withhold significant sums for tail risk?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I accept that I am not going to convince my noble friend this afternoon. Although she may see the fact that Reclaim Fund Ltd is a separate legal entity regulated by the FCA as a fiction, I respectfully disagree. She will decide whether she wishes to meet those from Reclaim Fund Ltd. The reason I felt that it might be helpful is that it may clarify to what extent the current level of reserving is “excessive”, as it was described in the debate this afternoon.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate; it has brought forward shared concerns and different ways of expressing much the same thing. The way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, explained it has been very informative, in particular the comparison with the original suggestion that maybe you need a 10% reserve and that that approach is the reality. Although I expressed it in a different way—I am sure that her amendment is probably crafted better than mine—we share the view about the tail risk and the role of government meaning that you do not have to provide for that in the ultra-cautious way. This also reflects my noble friend Lady Kramer’s comments that it is not being run as an endowment whereby you have to hang on to money. However, I suppose you can argue that there is a perpetual risk because there is an in-perpetuity claim.
It has been interesting to hear the Minister outline some of the concerns about AI tracing and using government data. If the 40% level will be retained as new assets come along, maybe I am not quite so alarmed. I shared the fear of my noble friend Lady Kramer that when these new assets came in, it was going to shoot back up to 60% or beyond.
We have this strange arrangement whereby limited liability companies that are on the public books but have to run under the Companies Act have the possibility of going into liquidation, which is how the directors can protect themselves, but the fact is that the Government will have to pick up the tab. It seems a bit wrong, somehow, not to use what is, in effect, a de facto “extreme circumstance” reinsurance provision that will be triggered come what may. We have to reflect the reality of that, and it is probably rather an excuse to say, “We will have to have it at arm’s length from the Treasury so that it is not interfering in the way the funds will be used.” We will get on to that when we begin to talk about additionality and some of the ways that the money has been deployed.
It may be interesting to have a bit more information on the figures; there are noble Lords who can get their heads around some of this. I am open to having more information and Parliament needs to see this level of it, but I am not entirely certain that I am satisfied at this point—particularly as the section regarding the loan turned out to be really rather meaningless, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, outlined. We need some kind of explanation and reassurance either that that is not the case or that it can be made into something meaningful. Otherwise, what is the point of it being there?
This has been a very useful debate, which will continue. I too may consider returning to it on Report. I feel I know more—I have had a little comfort but maybe not yet enough—but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Public Representatives: Online Abuse
Baroness Barran Excerpts(2 years, 10 months ago)
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The Lord Bishop of Leeds
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the fifth anniversary of the murder of Jo Cox MP, what assessment they have made of (1) the security needs of public representatives subjected to online abuse, and (2) the need for regulation to tackle such abuse.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, I think that this is a very solemn day for all of us as we remember Jo Cox’s tragic murder five years ago. I am sure that the House joins me in acknowledging the courage of her sister, whatever our party affiliations, in standing as a candidate in the by-election in Jo’s former seat.
The online abuse and intimidation of public representatives is completely unacceptable. It risks deterring talented people from entering public life and has a chilling effect on democracy. We are absolutely committed to protecting public representatives’ security both online and offline. The online safety Bill will play an important part in this.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her Answer. Given that Jo’s murder was partly fuelled by online conspiracy communications and that violent language sometimes leads to violent actions, how can the Government strengthen even the online safety Bill? We already have the Malicious Communications Act, but it seems to do little to deter bad behaviour. Will the online safety Bill be properly resourced and enforced to provide protection for public representatives both actually and online?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I hope that I can reassure the right reverend Prelate. We are absolutely clear that Ofcom, in its role as the regulator here, will be properly resourced. We are also clear that the approach in the Bill provides absolutely clarity, if it did not exist already, for social media companies and others on the expectations for how they enforce their terms and conditions, that there will be clear mechanisms for user redress and that there will be very significant enforcement powers.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, this is not just about MPs, of course. When I was a council leader—admittedly, before social media—receiving abuse and violent threats was common. One individual pursued me in the street and in the supermarket, as well as by phone, with abuse directed at family members and work colleagues, and by pinning up defamatory notices around the locality. He ended up in prison for unrelated violence. He would have relished being able to disseminate his abuse via social media. Of course, social media companies must be much more proactive in dealing with this—I hope that the online safety Bill will help with that—but does the Minister agree that the policing resources available are inadequate for the scale of the problem of dealing with fixated individuals before they escalate to violence? The Metropolitan Police’s parliamentary liaison and investigation team does a wonderful job, but where is its equivalent for local government?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government aim to make sure that people can operate in the public sphere safely at all levels, as the noble Lord rightly highlights. We expect the Bill to make a great difference to that when it becomes law. It is clear that, when the police use their existing powers, particularly under the Investigatory Powers Act, they are successful in identifying anonymous users online in particular.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I declare an interest as someone whose receipt of online abuse is somewhat off the scale but who feels uncomfortable with public figures playing the victim card on this. I feel even more uncomfortable with the implicit conflation of a brutal murder with a Twitter pile-on. Does the Minister agree that there is a danger in principle of confusing physical harassment, such as was horribly meted out to the BBC journalist Nick Watt, with online trolling, however unpleasant it may be? Does she note free speech activists’ concern that online abuse is being used to justify censoring lawful content? My fears about the online safety Bill outweigh any fear of harassment.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness is right to raise the unacceptable abuse that Nick Watt received the other day. I highlight that we have just published our National Action Plan for the Safety of Journalists and a call for evidence is live at the moment. I encourage your Lordships to contribute to that as appropriate.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, as we remember a very brave and remarkable woman, should we not also take on board the fact that public life has been further coarsened and cheapened since her death by the indiscriminate use of social media? Should we not take steps to outlaw anonymous contributions to social media?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government are clear that abuse is unacceptable, whether anonymous or not. Our intention is to try to address that.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, all our thoughts are with the Cox family today. Does the Minister agree that what we now know makes it more and more clear that the report of the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, for this House, Digital Technology and the Resurrection of Trust, should be included in the work of both the pre-legislative scrutiny committee and the final Bill committee?
Baroness Barran (Con)
As the noble Lord knows, we look forward to pre-legislative scrutiny starting. It will be up to that panel to decide what they will cover within it.
Baroness Fall (Con) [V]
My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to the inspirational Jo Cox as a model public servant, campaigner and mum, whose tragic murder we remember today. In a healthy, just and open democracy, our representatives should be free to speak out without fear of recrimination, whether physical or from online abuse. Sadly, we see MPs and others, particularly women, bullied out of public life. In my view, a good start in curtailing online abuse would be to end anonymity. Transparency would help to restore accountability in one stroke. Does the Minister agree? If so, what steps is she taking to deliver this?
Baroness Barran (Con)
As my noble friend knows, this is a complicated area. Anonymity provides protection for a number of groups that deserve it but can be seen as an enabler of those who choose to abuse. In the first instance, it should be for social media companies to close the gaps that so many of us feel exist between their quoted terms and conditions and our experiences online.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
I, too, pay tribute to Jo Cox, a brave woman. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fall, that anonymity online seems to encourage the worst sort of behaviour in those who wish to be abusive. There must be more that can be done to stop that. Whenever this issue is raised, the Minister tells us about the need to preserve free speech, protect those suffering from terrorism and so on, including the need to offer them some means of making their case felt. I appreciate that, but if you Google “anonymity online”, what pops up is a company that boasts “We tell nobody anything and, for £5 a month, you are guaranteed complete anonymity.” I do not believe that that is saving anybody from terrorism.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness makes her point very powerfully. I imagine that issues around anonymity will be covered by the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, and I look forward very much to its reflections.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
On the anniversary of the murder of Jo Cox MP, may her memory be for a blessing. It was an absolute disgrace to see the BBC’s Nick Watt pursued in the street as though he were an animal being hunted down. Decency and democracy demand that journalists can go about their business free from abuse, harassment and physical violence. How does the Minister plan to tackle the growing culture that makes some people think that they have an inalienable right to abuse public figures online and in person? What assessment has been made of the impact of this on the likelihood of underrepresented groups taking their place as public figures?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am not aware of a formal impact assessment of the nature that the noble Baroness suggests, but I am sure she will agree with me that it can only have a deterring effect given the preponderance of abuse towards minority groups in particular.
Going back to the safety of journalists, in the action plan, which was developed together with the National Union of Journalists, the police and others, there are clear calls for training for the police so that they can respond to those issues.
Baroness Helic (Con) [V]
My Lords, five years on from the despicable murder of Jo Cox, the values by which she lived should continue to inspire us all. During the passage of the Domestic Abuse Bill, I witnessed the relentless online abuse to which some women—activists, academics and survivors of domestic abuse—who spoke out on the issue were subjected. Will the Government commit to working with politicians and public figures from all parties and from civil society in reviewing online abuse and developing strategies to counter it?
Baroness Barran (Con)
We are absolutely open to and are already working on this issue. I have met with numerous women’s groups with great expertise on this issue and we will continue to do so.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Destination Management Organisations
Baroness Barran Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Ravensdale (CB) [V]
I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and, in so doing, note that I am co-chair of the Midlands Engine APPG.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, in March the Government commissioned an independent review of the destination management organisations in England to look at these issues. The review is ongoing and will report later in the summer. It will make recommendations on how DMOs might best be structured and funded to support the post-Covid recovery of the tourism sector. Last year, the Government provided £2.3 million in financial support to England’s DMOs so that they could continue to carry out vital business support roles during the pandemic.
Lord Ravensdale (CB) [V]
I thank the Minister for that response. Local connections and knowledge of place are key for DMOs. Does the Minister agree on the importance of community-based action for DMOs and that freedom from hierarchical structures is key in helping them undertake their role effectively—for example, freedom from the constraints inherent in local government structures and strengthening connections with LEPs, town funds and future levelling-up opportunities?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Lord will be aware that there are several different models of DMO, but the Government recognise the point that he makes about the important role that DMOs currently play in supporting local communities, sharing their expertise and building connections across destinations. The review will consider the points he raises, taking into account current examples of best practice, and will make recommendations based on that.
Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]
My Lords, what support for the recovery of these organisations are the Government giving regarding the resulting instability of endless changing of the red, amber and green countries?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government recognise and regret the disruption to travellers, particularly those who had been planning trips to Portugal recently. We have provided £2.3 million in the last year specifically to support the destination management organisations in recognition of their crucial role.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
My Lords, in this country we are very lucky to have so many museums and art galleries that are free to the public. And yet, on occasion, DMOs have included in the list of things they can do for visitors “entry into the British Museum”, et cetera. Will the Government undertake not to support any organisations that market themselves in this way?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am very happy to take the points raised by the noble Baroness back to colleagues in the department.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, local authorities deserve praise for their work during the pandemic to promote staycations: getting people to fall back in love with the great British holiday either by exploring new places in our rich and varied country or revisiting childhood destinations. Are the Government considering giving these hard-pressed councils and destination management organisations additional financial and other support, at a time when the UK desperately needs to grow domestic tourism and the hospitality industry is suffering?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness will be aware that the Government have given huge support—over £25 billion—to the tourism, hospitality and leisure sectors. We made an additional grant of £425 million specifically to local authorities, making clear that tourism and events were eligible for that funding, at the discretion of local authorities.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
My Lords, a recent survey of tourism businesses by the Tourism Alliance highlighted some severe staffing problems: only 18% of businesses in the tourism and hospitality sector say that they have enough staff, and almost one-third have had to reduce their capacity, services or hours because they simply cannot get the staff. What action are the Government taking with DMOs to rectify this situation, which is wrecking the recovery not just of the tourism industry but of local economies?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness makes a good point, but the picture is slightly more complicated than the one that she paints. She is right that there are areas of shortage, but in significant portions of the industry staff are still on furlough. There are great geographic variations on that, and we are working closely with the sector to assess how we can respond to the challenges it faces.
Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House how the stronger towns funding, the future high streets fund, the levelling-up fund, the UK shared prosperity fund, the welcome back fund and the coastal community fund are being co-ordinated to provide a coherent strategy for tourism and, specifically, for seaside towns?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I thank my noble friend for highlighting the varied and sustained support that the Government have been offering in the range of funds that he cited, some of which have been available since 2019 and others which are yet to be launched. We are working across Whitehall and with local and regional stakeholders, including DMOs, to make sure that ongoing investment in places reflects their local priorities and needs.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, following on from the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, there is a question about how much the Government appreciate the important role local authorities should be playing in the visitor economy. The news of further job losses for visitor and museum staff, such as the 50% losses currently threatened in Harrogate Borough Council, is hugely worrying. Local authorities need to be given the resources to do the job intended for them.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government absolutely recognise the role that local authorities play, and, as the noble Earl is aware, they are important funders of DMOs. The review will look at the right funding structure for these organisations going forward.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that regional transport authorities have an important role to play in welcoming and facilitating both national and international tourism? I am thinking, for example, of the sorts of visitor welcome centres that Transport for London has habitually maintained at major London rail termini. Will she take steps to ensure that funding is directed at keeping these in operation?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government recognise the role that regional transport authorities can play in providing information and assistance to visitors, as my noble friend has outlined, particularly when they co-ordinate that work with the DMOs. I have already mentioned the £25 billion provided to support the sector, which has been one of the worst hit; we have supported over 87% of businesses in this area.
Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)
The Government’s support in that respect is very welcome. One of the themes of these questions is greater co-ordination between DMOs and greater co-ordination of funds. Are the Government planning a big domestic marketing campaign, given that Matt Hancock has turned us into a captive audience for domestic tourism?
Baroness Barran (Con)
We are currently working with VisitBritain, VisitEngland and local partners, including DMOs, to champion the diverse tourism offer we have in this country through the Enjoy Summer Safely campaign. We spent £19 million on domestic marketing activity last year, and much more is planned for this year.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]
My Lords, given that many visitors wish to see international artists, how much does the noble Baroness think this question is bound up with post-Brexit rules on touring, and the difficulty of getting artists to this country and getting our artists to other countries?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The two issues obviously have a link. Particularly for international tourism into this country, the range of events we have traditionally offered has been very important. We are obviously trying to balance that with the safety of citizens.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]
My Lords, in its recent submission to the Independent Review of Destination Management Organisations, the Local Government Association proposed that local councils should be given the power to reinvest the money generated by tourism into their local areas. Can the Minister comment on whether this recommendation will be supported by the Government, since local councils need to pay for the facilities to support such tourism?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I really would not want to prejudge the review’s findings. When we get those later this summer, we will respond on a way forward.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.
Public Service Broadcasting (Communications and Digital Committee Report)
Baroness Barran Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, it has been an absolute pleasure to listen to this debate this afternoon. I echo the thanks of other noble Lords to my noble friend Lord Gilbert for securing the debate and for all his work with his colleagues on the committee. Although 18 months have elapsed since the publication of his committee’s report, the issues which it raises are, as we have heard, no less topical now than they were then. I acknowledge the delay in holding this debate, but I know that my noble friend understands that we experienced exceptional circumstances. I also join other noble Lords in welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, to her place. I feel I shall have constructive but positive challenge across the Dispatch Box, and I look forward to that very much indeed.
As set out in our written submission to the committee, the Government are clear that public service broadcasting provides significant cultural, economic and democratic value to the UK. It is free at the point of use, universally available and works for the public benefit to foster shared experiences, stimulate learning and reflect communities from across the country. As the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, mentioned, it has also celebrated major charitable events during the past year. As the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, noted, evidence from Ofcom shows that PSB programming remains popular and valued by UK audiences.
However, as many noble Lords noted, in a changing media landscape, there is growing consensus that public service broadcasters need to adapt—in the words of my noble friend Lord Hannan, getting on our surfboards, although I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, will be joining him on a surfboard. Therefore, the legislation and regulation in this area need to evolve to ensure that we have a regulatory framework that is fit for purpose.
With that in mind, the Government are working closely with Ofcom and the sector to consider those issues as part of their strategic review of the future of public service broadcasting. As set out in our response to the committee’s report, the Government want to ensure the continued health of a strong, successful and sustainable PSB system, one that is capable of bringing the nation together through shared experiences, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, put it so eloquently; that represents and serves audiences in all parts of the UK; and that remains at the heart of our world-class broadcasting sector, which is among our greatest soft power assets, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Bhatia, all noted. I very much hope that we will be able to set out our next steps on that later this year and, within that, a strong, independent and trusted BBC is vital.
I start with a brief reflection on recent events at the BBC and try to set the record straight again on this Government’s attitude towards it. I agree with the spirit of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, that the ferocity of emotion—those are my words, not his—about recent events is because all of us personally and individually care deeply about the BBC as a national institution. On Lord Dyson’s report on the Martin Bashir interview, noted by many noble Lords in the debate, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said—and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, quoted, it reveals
“damning failings at the heart of the BBC”.
We are now reflecting on that thorough report and considering what further governance reforms might be needed as part of the mid-term charter review.
I will comment on the mid-term review, but so many noble Lords have questioned the Government’s attitude to the BBC, including the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, that I shall just quote from a reply by my right honourable friend the Minister for Media and Data in a debate in the other place last week. He described the BBC as
“a priceless national asset, and one of the most serious consequences of the revelations of the past week is that its reputation and trust in it have been badly damaged. It is essential that it retains its position as the most trusted and reliable broadcaster in the world, and there is work to be done to restore that reputation.”—[Official Report, Commons, 24/5/21; col.52.]
We need to use all our energies to focus on the wider challenges that public service broadcasters, including the BBC, face and resolve them, rather than constantly questioning the Government’s attitude towards them.
On the mid-charter review, I cannot accept the suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, that the Government’s behaviour is impacting on the editorial independence of the BBC, which, we are crystal clear, is important. I very much welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, accepting the need for constructive criticism. Sometimes a need for transparency and accountability are seen as criticism, but they are obviously essential.
In response to my noble friend Lord Gilbert’s question about what we mean when we say that we will consider further governance reform, as the Secretary of State has said, the mid-term review provides an opportunity to look at issues such as the performance of the BBC board and the effectiveness of the regulation of BBC by Ofcom. We will start preparations for that now, ahead of the review starting formally next year. Many people in the other place and in your Lordships’ House have used the phrase “never again”. This is an opportunity to check whether the new governance system that we introduced, to which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred, would have worked had the events of 25 years ago occurred under this regime.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, asked about the wider scope of the review. I have set out the scope—addressing governance and regulation issues only—but we have been clear that we will look at the future of the licence fee model ahead of the next full charter review, which is by 2027.
A number of noble Lords raise the issue of the licence fee settlement for the BBC, including the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, my noble friend Lord Gilbert, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron. We are already in discussion with the BBC and S4C on the next licence fee settlement, which is due to take effect from April 2022 for at least five years. As the Secretary of State has said publicly, this is an opportunity for the BBC to consider how it can offer best value for money for everyone across the UK. I note the call to improve the transparency of the settlement process. The Secretary of State has undertaken to publish formal correspondence between the Government and the BBC and S4C on the Government’s website, and he will lay his final determination before Parliament to allow time for debate before the settlement takes effect.
A number of noble Lords raised the issue of the concession for the over-75s. Your Lordships will have heard me say on too many occasions in this House that it is clearly the responsibility of the BBC to deal with that issue, and we encourage it to do so urgently.
Turning more broadly to issues affecting public service broadcasting, a number of noble Lords talked about the importance of wider diversity in our broadcasting. My noble friend Lord Holmes spoke very eloquently about the value of regional broadcasting and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, had particular local reservations. But when we talk about diversity, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, put very clearly, we are not talking about just location of production but about commissioning, subject matter, workforce and diversity of thought. Recent commitments in this area have been warmly welcomed by the Government.
As noble Lords will be aware, Ofcom is undertaking a review of PSBs at the moment. I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that the Government have encouraged Ofcom to be very ambitious and innovative in its approach to the review and to explore all issues that it sees as relevant. We look forward to receiving its recommendations this summer.
The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, raised the issue of the Public Service Broadcasting Advisory Panel. As I hope I have made clear, the Government are absolutely supportive of a modern system of public service broadcasting that remains relevant and meets the needs of UK audiences in future. Your Lordships set out very clearly some significant strategic challenges facing public service broadcasters, and that is why the Government have brought in an advisory panel to provide independent expertise on these critical issues.
My noble friend Lord Gilbert, the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, and other noble Lords raised the issue of prominence. We recognise the need to ensure that high-quality public service content is easily accessible to UK audiences. We have committed to act on Ofcom’s prominence proposals and we will take forward legislation on this as soon as the timetable allows.
My noble friend Lord Gilbert asked about the terms of trade. I am pleased to say that Ofcom heeded the advice of the committee and issued a call for evidence late last year to see whether any changes were required. The Government look forward to receiving its recommendations.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the importance of radio. On behalf of the Government, I echo his recognition of the incredible role that radio, particularly local radio, has played during the pandemic.
My noble friend Lord Gilbert and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, talked about the apprenticeship scheme in the creative industries. DCMS has been working closely with industry and the Department for Education on introducing additional flexibilities to the apprenticeship levy. We hope this will start increasing the number of quality starts in the creative sector from next year. I will pass on your Lordships’ observations to the Minister for Digital and Culture.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, asked about archiving and, in particular, the national film archive. As set in the government response, we strongly encourage non-PSBs and SVODs—I am not sure that is in the Companion, but anyway—to entrust guardianship of their screen content to the BFI National Archive, making it a reasonable contribution to the BFI. I reassure him that we are monitoring progress in this regard and remain open to considering the full range of options to deliver on this, including statutory support for collecting, as currently exists for the PSBs.
We are involved in an ambitious set of plans in a rapidly changing and important sector. I feel that much of what I have said is about the future, so I will reflect briefly on some of the actions we have taken since the publication of the committee’s report to protect UK public service broadcasting. These include: adding the Paralympic Games to the listed events regime, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, referred, in recognition of their special national significance; setting out a clear and transparent process for the present licence fee settlement; as I mentioned earlier, introducing additional flexibilities to the apprenticeship levy, which we hope will really start to translate into an increasing number of quality starts in our world-class creative sector; launching a £500 million film and TV production restart scheme to ensure productions could restart after Covid restrictions were eased—many commissioned by PSBs; and supporting the wider screen industry through the launch of the UK global screen fund, which will help independent film and screen content made in every corner of the UK to export to markets around the world.
Looking forward, this will be a busy year for public service broadcasting. We have already had the conclusion of Ofcom’s Small Screen: Big Debate Consultation and the publication of a report by the DCMS Select Committee in the other place. In the summer, we are likely to receive a report from Ofcom, and in the autumn the PSB advisory panel will meet for a sixth and final time. The Government have already committed to updating the UK’s system of prominence when the legislative timetable allows. We will consider outputs from all these different processes carefully and set out our steps later this year.
I close by thanking my noble friend Lord Gilbert and his colleagues on the committee once again for their important work, and for their ideas, analysis and recommendations. To be clear, the Government continue to consider them and use them to inform our strategy as we go forward. I have greatly enjoyed the debate this afternoon and look forward to carrying some of these issues forward with your Lordships in future.
Dormant Assets Bill [HL]
Baroness Barran ExcerptsWednesday 26th May 2021
(2 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, this Bill delivers on the Government’s commitment to expand the dormant assets scheme. Not only does the scheme provide a great opportunity to support industry’s work to reunite more people with their assets but it also has the potential to unlock hundreds of millions of pounds for good causes.
The dormant assets scheme takes a pragmatic approach to forgotten money. Rather than leaving funds to languish in dormant accounts, money can instead be channelled into long-term initiatives that address some of the UK’s greatest challenges. Since the scheme was established a decade ago, more than £1.4 billion has been transferred voluntarily into the system by banks and building societies. Of the total transferred, £106 million has been reunited with owners. The scheme responds to the imperative to put any money that is not reclaimed or reserved to good use. So far, £800 million has been released, including £150 million for coronavirus response and recovery.
I hope noble Lords will indulge me for a few minutes as I reflect on the impact of the original scheme. In England, funding is distributed via expert organisations. The first, Big Society Capital, was established in 2012. It received £425 million of dormant assets funding with the explicit aim of growing the social investment market. Since then, with partners, it has been able to invest more than £2 billion in social impact organisations. This includes around £200 million directly targeted at place-based investments, supporting left-behind communities to develop vibrant, local, social economies that reduce poverty and inequality.
The second, Access—The Foundation for Social Investment, seeks to support the development of enterprise activity and improve access to social investment. It has developed a £21 million programme of flexible recovery finance for the social sector and has made £7 million available for emergency Covid support through social lenders. Together, these organisations have grown the social impact investment market from £830 million in 2011 to more than £5 billion today.
More recently in 2019, the scheme supported the establishment of Fair4All Finance and the Youth Futures Foundation. By 2025, Fair4All Finance will have supported community finance providers to increase their lending capacity from £300 million a year to over £900 million, enabling more than 800,000 people to access affordable loans and escape high-cost credit. It is also working to grow the financial services market to support 14 million people in vulnerable financial circumstances. The Youth Futures Foundation is targeting support to young people from marginalised backgrounds facing barriers to work. By the end of this year, it will have directed £40 million towards funding and evaluating the largest range of youth employment interventions ever initiated in England.
Scotland and Wales use dormant assets funding for projects focusing on young people, climate change and sustainability, while Northern Ireland has worked with the National Lottery Community Fund to establish a £20.5 million Dormant Accounts Fund NI for the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector.
I thank in particular all those involved in the development, passage and implementation of the 2008 Act, several of whom are in the Chamber today; without their vision of what could be achieved, this would not have been possible. I am proud of what the current scheme has achieved to date and I hope that the Bill will continue to build on its notable successes.
With 34 banks and building societies now participating in the scheme, including all major high street banks, the current scheme is reaching a mature state, with significantly fewer funds flowing into the system each year. Over £300 million was transferred in 2011, but this will decrease to around £42 million per year in future. Expansion means that the flow of funds is not only maintained but will be increased substantially.
Consumer protection remains at the heart of the expanded scheme, with the continued priority being to locate and reunite people with their financial assets. Where that is not possible, expansion will enable more responsible businesses to redirect money to some of the nation’s priority issues. Full restitution will also continue to be a core principle. Asset owners will always be entitled to reclaim what they would have been owed, had their assets never been transferred into the scheme.
Industry expects that around £1.7 billion-worth of dormant assets could be eligible for transfer after expansion. Once transferred, a proportion is held back to satisfy any future reclaims and around £880 million could then be released. Money must fulfil the additionality principle, so it cannot be used as a substitute for central government funding. We have worked closely with industry leaders on how best to design expansion. I record my warm thanks for the support we have received throughout this process. I also thank everyone who responded to the public consultation, whose contributions have informed the shape of the Bill.
I shall now outline the main contents of the Bill. Currently, the dormant assets scheme accepts transfers only from dormant bank or building society accounts. The Bill expands the scope of eligible assets, so certain assets from the insurance and pensions, investment and wealth management, and securities sectors will be eligible for transfer. Our consultation response committed to considering how legislation could best provide the flexibility to expand the scheme further in the future. In reply, the Bill introduces a new power to broaden further the pool of eligible assets through future regulations.
The Bill also enables the specific focus of the English portion of funds to be set through secondary legislation, subject to statutory consultation. This harmonises the mechanism in England with the devolved Administrations and will allow the scheme to respond more flexibly to changing needs over time.
After 10 years of operation, we are at a critical juncture in considering the scheme’s overall operation, and now is the right time to think about how the scheme can deliver the greatest impact once it has been expanded. Therefore, subject to the Bill passing, we will launch a public consultation on the use of funds in England. The current restrictions of youth, financial inclusion and social investment will continue until any new arrangements come into force.
The Bill also includes provisions to improve the operation of the scheme: for example, by making owner reunification efforts a requirement before funds are transferred, with the exception of situations where efforts are considered disproportionate or unnecessary.
The Bill also reflects Reclaim Fund Ltd’s recent establishment as a Treasury non-departmental public body. It names Reclaim Fund Ltd as the scheme’s only authorised reclaim fund, and as a result the Government are seeking a power to enable the Treasury to add, substitute or remove an authorised reclaim fund in future through secondary legislation. The Bill also enables the Government to cover the liability for reclaims should any authorised reclaim fund face insolvency, in the form of a loan. Such a liability will be established following the usual parliamentary process.
In closing, I emphasise our mission to support industry efforts to reunite owners with lost money and to provide a practical way for unclaimed and unwanted funds to be put to good use. I hope that the Bill receives strong support from your Lordships so that we can proceed swiftly with its passage and continue to build on the scheme’s success. I look forward to all noble Lords’ contributions to this debate but in particular to the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Fleet. I beg to move.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I thank all noble Lords for their valuable contributions today. The debate has indeed been very wide-ranging, and your Lordships have set me a difficult challenge in trying to cover your points in the time allowed. If I may, I will therefore follow up with a letter to noble Lords after this debate.
I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lady Fleet on her excellent maiden speech; I look forward to listening to her speak many times in future. I also echo the best wishes expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, to the noble Lord, Lord Field, and wish him well. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on starting a new trend of supporting, agreeing with and welcoming government legislation.
I shall touch on some of the broader points that went beyond the direct scope of the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, challenged the Government on their ambition in relation to levelling up. The Queen’s Speech had a very strong theme of levelling up going through it. I highlight in particular the changes we have already made to the social value legislation and the potential it gives for social enterprises, charities and SMEs more broadly to benefit from £49 billion of government commissioning.
My noble friend Lord Vaizey managed to combine Dickens, the BBC and the National Fund in an incredible bit of knitting. As he is aware, the National Fund is currently subject to court proceedings, so there is no more that I can do to release it, but perhaps when we get there it will be a combination of “Sleeping Beauty” and Hard Times, if that is not too bad a combination.
Finally, and importantly, I thank my noble friend Lord Bates for stressing the incredible generosity of the British people over the past year in donating to charities and in volunteering for the NHS responder scheme to help with the vaccination rollout. I am sure that we will shortly see an incredible outpouring when volunteering options for the Commonwealth Games open in a couple of weeks.
The first area of discussion by your Lordships related to the size of the assets that will be released; that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and several other noble Lords. To reiterate, industry valuations show that expansion has the potential to make £1.7 billion available to transfer to Reclaim Fund Ltd, which is based on an estimated £3.7 billion of dormant assets in the new asset classes that will be included in the Bill. The industry believes that, with enhanced tracing and verification efforts, £2 billion could be reunited with its rightful owners. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, talked about whether we could do more, as did other noble Lords. This represents an important step forward. Obviously, in the regulations we propose to make further expansion of the scheme more flexible and, when that happens, the money will of course increase.
I listened intently to the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, talking about social housing and was writing down all the good things that Big Society Capital had done—but of course that was exactly where he was going with his comments. However, it is also important to recognise the multiplier effect that some of these specialist distribution organisations have had and the additional funds that they have brought into areas such as social housing, where the market is now I think over £800 million. I absolutely agree with him about the potential for both impact investment and impact philanthropy.
My noble friend Lord Bellingham also talked about the greater potential both to reunite people with their assets and to release money for good causes. I reiterate the point that the Bill includes the principles not just of reuniting but of full restitution.
The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friends Lady Sater and Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked about increased efforts in relation to tracing, verification and reunification. The requirement to make efforts to trace, verify and reunite the owner with their asset before transfer is set out in the agency agreements between current participants and the authorised reclaim fund, and that will be mirrored in future. However, the Bill strengthens that position by ensuring that the reclaim fund can accept transfers from a participant only if it has made satisfactory contractual or other arrangements with it.
A newspaper—not my noble friend Lady Fleet’s former employer but another—has a supplement called How to Spend It, and here we come to the “How to spend it” section of the debate. It is absolutely right that we should bring this focus if we are to expand the scheme and review where those funds can be spent. We have had such a rich and knowledgeable debate, and I thank in particular my noble friend Lord Bates, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, the noble Earl, Lord Devon, and my noble friend Lady Eaton for their contributions here. During the consultation on expanding the scheme, we received multiple calls to change the current restrictions. There was some concern from a number of your Lordships about the restrictions in Section 18 coming to an end and there being a gap before the new restrictions would apply. That is not correct; they will apply until a new order has been made.
There was a lot of discussion about the additionality principle. This is set out in paragraph 9 of Schedule 3 to the 2008 Act and remains unchanged. There was perhaps a misunderstanding on the part of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, reiterated by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in suggesting that there had been a breach of that principle in the last year. There was absolutely no breach. I am not quite sure where that idea comes from, but it is not correct. The additional £150 million that was given to the dormant asset distribution organisations came from dormant assets themselves. Their mission was absolutely as set out in the legislation. There was no government interference whatever.
The noble Earl, Lord Devon, commented on the valuable role played by social enterprises. I share his support for that sector, with which I engage very regularly. The Act does not currently specify social enterprises as particular beneficiaries of the funds; rather, they will often deliver in the social and environmental areas which are the funds’ focus. Since that broad area of focus will stay unchanged—the restrictions may change beneath it—we would very much expect them to continue to be part of the ecosystem.
There were a number of questions about the consultation, particularly from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. The position was made clear in the press pack, which noble Lords may be forgiven for not having read. It is absolutely in the public domain that we have committed to a full public consultation with all the groups that the noble Baroness talked about. Regarding the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, it is important to remember that dormant asset funding is entirely dependent on industry participants who voluntarily transfer into the scheme, as well as the general public’s trust in it. It is therefore very important that we listen to those groups as well as the others that were cited.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, asked about capital versus revenue funding. To clarify, it is up to the distribution organisations to decide what they want to make grants to; the Government do not interfere as to whether it is capital or revenue. They will use their expertise to find the best way to have a positive impact on the issues they are seeking to address. On the points raised by my noble friends Lord Patten, Lord Polak, Lord Bellingham and other noble Lords, the distribution to small organisations already happens through those four distribution organisations.
I turn to the expansion of the scheme. My noble friend Lord Patten asked about industry participation and support for the scheme. There has been very strong interest from industry in participating in the expanded scheme. It has, in the nicest possible way, been nudging us along very politely and it backs the swift progression of the Bill. We are continuing to work closely with the dormant assets expansion board, as well as the Reclaim Fund, trade bodies and regulators, as we prepare to operationalise the expanded scheme.
There were a number of specific questions about additional types of assets, including online investment platforms, raised by my noble friend. I will respond in writing to these, including on the proceeds of crime, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and gambling proceeds, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, and others asked about the relationship between the scheme and the pensions dashboard. The consultation cited ongoing changes in the pensions landscape, including the introduction of the dashboard, as needing “time to fully develop”. Many responses asserted that the dashboards would interact positively with the scheme. Both initiatives have the primary aim of reuniting owners with their assets, and the dashboards will make it even more likely that only genuinely dormant pension products that will not be reclaimed will be transferred to the scheme.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, also asked about safeguards against perverse incentives. Legislation may indeed incentivise firms to change their terms in order to participate, but the Bill tightly prescribes the circumstances in which an asset is eligible, including dormancy definitions and reclaim values. If the terms of an asset align with these, it is obviously appropriate for it to be in scope.
My noble friend Lady Noakes asked about dormant national savings accounts. She may be aware that money invested in National Savings and Investment products is passed directly to the Exchequer and used to fund public services, which means that any unclaimed balances are already being used for public benefit. There is also the My Lost Account scheme, which seeks to reunite customers with their money and premium bond winnings. In the past 20 years, £840 million has been reunited in that way.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts asked about the inclusion of shares and dividends. The Government have been engaging with the sector on plans to include them since 2018. More recently, share registrars have joined forces to think about how they will work with companies to operationalise the scheme, which includes thinking about what kind of register would be needed to ensure full restitution.
I turn to the Reclaim Fund and focus on the reserves policy, raised by my noble friend Lady Noakes, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. I absolutely share your Lordships’ wish to see more money distributed. As your Lordships are aware, the Reclaim Fund is legally obliged to retain a portion of the funds that it receives to repay owners. That portion has been declining over time: initially, 60% of assets were reserved, but that has now reduced to 40%. In relation to the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, that explains the bumper year in 2019, when there was a large release of assets because of a reduction in the reserving policy, which allowed the establishment of Fair4All Finance and the Youth Futures Foundation.
We expect the approach to reserves to evolve over time. It remains the responsibility of the Reclaim Fund to set the reserves at the right level. My noble friend Lady Noakes asked about whether the guarantee from the Treasury affects this. There is a balance to be struck here, but the principle of additionality and separation of the assets means that the current structure is sound.
I turn to the issues of secondary legislation raised by my noble friend Lord Hodgson and the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker, Lady Kramer and Lady Bennett. We have kept the provisions and the number of delegated powers in the Bill to a minimum and have only included those powers that are necessary for a successful operation of an expanded scheme. Where it is possible and practical, we have implemented future changes in the Bill. However, in a way, the answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, about timing and why it has taken such a long time to get to this point lies in the need for secondary legislation to make this more flexible. It has been about five years since the industry started to encourage us to expand the asset classe,s and obviously through the consultation recently, we heard the calls for more flexibility in deployment of those assets. The secondary legislation will give us that flexibility.
I have appreciated enormously the tone of a generous but critical friend in this debate and I look forward very much to working with your Lordships as we pass this important piece of legislation. I am also able to put my noble friend Lord Hodgson out of his suspense as I look forward to introducing the Charities Bill. With that, I beg to move.
BBC: Dyson Report
Baroness Barran Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the blunt findings of the report by Lord Dyson make for deeply troubling reading, and I welcome the unequivocal apology by the director-general of the BBC and the review into editorial practices and culture. Is the Minister satisfied that the scope of the review will ensure that such a disgrace cannot happen again? Do the Government agree that veiled threats about the upcoming charter renewal exercise are unhelpful and that the focus really should be on building trust, accountability and service to the public, as we saw in the vital role played by the BBC during the pandemic?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
It is obviously up to the board of the BBC to determine the scope of the review. I am sure the noble Baroness has seen the letter today from the chief executive of Ofcom about its work in this area. It is all part of an effort to rebuild trust in the BBC after the dreadful events revealed by the Dyson report.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]
My Lords, we welcome the fact that the Government agree that, in an era of fake news, public service broadcasting has never been more important. The Bashir story is truly shocking, but I worked as a journalist at the BBC for many years and know that the vast majority abide by the values and principles that make it such a respected institution at home and abroad. This is not a time, as the Secretary of State said, for knee-jerk reactions. While I wholeheartedly condemn these events, does the Minister not agree that they must not be used as an opportunity to undermine the BBC’s independence or the principles of universality that so importantly underpin it?
Baroness Barran (Con)
We absolutely agree—we want a strong and successful public broadcasting system, and that needs the BBC to be a central part of it. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made clear in his recent article in the Times, there will be no knee-jerk reaction.
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the comments made by the ministerial teams in both this House and the other place over the last day or so. I also welcome the announcement by the DCMS Select Committee that it will look at this matter. I therefore call on the BBC to clear the slate, get a move on and make absolutely clear where it admits responsibility, but commit for the future that it will publish the likes of the Balen report and make absolutely clear, when it has people commenting on news items, what their well-known political positions are.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend is absolutely right that the BBC needs urgently to demonstrate that the failings to which he refers have been addressed, that they can never happen again, and that trust is restored in a culture of transparency and accountability within the BBC.
Baroness Deech (CB) [V]
I declare an interest as a former BBC governor. The problem of trust in the BBC today is not, at core, one of governance; it is one of inbreeding. Ofcom is not the solution, for it too has many former BBC employees on its committees. The chances of a complaint succeeding are about nil. The answer is oversight by a completely independent ombudsman with no links to the BBC. This is the pattern adopted for other professions, such as financial, legal and medical. Does the noble Baroness agree that, as long as problems and complaints are dealt with internally and by BBC people, there can be no perception of impartiality?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I do not completely agree with the noble Baroness: I think part of the role of good governance is to check that inbreeding is not happening within an organisation, and that the governance structure reinforces the culture necessary to deliver on the mission of the organisation. In relation to internal investigations, she will be aware that complaints can be made direct to Ofcom on issues of fairness and privacy.
Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)
My Lords, while I condemn Bashir’s deceitfulness and the subsequent cover-up, can the Minister reassure the House that the BBC board and director-general will be allowed to get on with the review they have announced without interference by the Government? Moreover, does she agree that any further steps to alter the governance or editorial oversight should be proportionate and not heavy-handed and, above all, should resist damaging the BBC’s independence and its contribution to soft power through output that is relied on and admired not just in the UK but around the world?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I absolutely agree: it is essential that the BBC can operate with editorial independence and integrity, and nothing we are doing will compromise that.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
The BBC operates under a royal charter; does it not therefore have an obligation not to broadcast interviews with Diana, Princess of Wales, that can only undermine our monarchy? Secondly, Martin Bashir was found by the Dyson report to have actually been implicit in forging bank statements. Is this not criminal activity, and should he not face charges for this, as indeed should anybody further up the food chain at the BBC who knew of this activity and did not report it to the proper authorities?
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend’s first question falls into the area of editorial independence, although I share the very real concerns he raises. On the forgery of the bank statements, as my right honourable friend the Minister for Media and Data set out, my understanding is that a request has gone to the Metropolitan Police to examine the evidence and reach a judgment on it.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB) [V]
I welcome the Government’s review of the BBC’s governance. However, contrary to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, I was concerned this morning that the director-general of the BBC said he had no intention of airing the Princess Diana interview ever again. I understand, given the shocking circumstances under which Martin Bashir obtained the interview, why he said that; however, the interview is a seminal part of the understanding of the history of this country in the 1990s. Does the Minister agree that to prohibit future airings of the interview is to censor our history and limit freedom of expression?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I can only repeat what I said earlier, which is that that appears to me to sit as an editorial decision for the BBC.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP) [V]
Does the Minister accept that now is an opportune time for the BBC to acknowledge the serious flaws within the system and to learn the lessons from the failures of the past, not only in the Bashir saga but in other unbalanced reporting of events? Is the mid-term review not an opportunity to have a radical change within the BBC? Are the Government determined to make any fundamental changes necessary?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The mid-term review is really a health check point that was built in to the charter review process to look at the effectiveness of governance and regulation, rather than the more widespread suggestions the noble Lord makes.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]
My Lords, while I agree with Mr Whittingdale’s comments in the other place, will the review reconsider my complaints about a fairly recent programme commemorating the Caernarvon investiture, with unsubstantiated allegations of the use of agents provocateur and fixing of the date of court hearings being defended by the noble Lord, Lord Hall, downwards on the grounds that it was the work of experienced journalists?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble and learned Lord raises another troubling example. All of these will be important to address if the BBC is to rebuild the trust we all wish it to have.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]
My Lords, I dealt with BBC News for many years and I regret to say that, despite being known—I hope—for straight dealing, I found it almost impossible to get an error corrected or the semblance of an apology from it. I encountered, I fear, a well-entrenched and regrettable defensiveness. Does my noble friend agree that this needs to change and that the BBC should appreciate that even it can learn from its mistakes?
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend is right to question the culture of the BBC. We welcome the fact that the new chair and director-general are doing the same, as my noble friend says, in relation not just to some of the serious failings we have heard about in the Chamber today and in the Dyson report but to the day-to-day defensiveness in its dealings, which my noble friend referred to and which was also referenced in the letter from Ofcom.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and answered.
Digital Identification Protocol
Baroness Barran Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interests as set out in the register.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, in 2020, the Government committed to creating a framework of standards, governance and legislation to enable a UK digital identity market. The DCMS published a draft trust framework in February this year setting out the Government’s vision for the rules governing the future use of digital identities. A next iteration is expected to be published this summer and we are expecting to consult on digital identity legislation during this year.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, which specific sectors do the Government believe are best to run proofs of concepts in when it comes to digital ID? Further, does my noble friend agree with the analysis from McKinsey that suggests an additional 13% in UK GDP if we get digital identity effectively deployed? That is a prize certainly worth prioritising.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I absolutely agree with my noble friend that this is a prize worth prioritising—although I cannot comment on the specific McKinsey data. On his question about areas for pilots, we are working with a number of sectors and are eager to look into pilots in healthcare, tourism, housing, conveyancing and insurance—but all of this is of course subject to spending review outcomes.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]
It is increasingly important for all of us as citizens to be able to simply and securely verify our identity to others and, likewise, that we can always have confidence that the person with whom we are engaged in a transaction is who they say they are. Yet there have been 11 wasted years since the Government scrapped the previous proposals for a secure identity system. Why has there been that waste of time? Can the Minister assure us, the public, that our personal identity data will be secure and not exploited for profit by these new private sector solutions?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I cannot comment on the delay to which the noble Lord refers. What I can say is that we are working at pace and have made considerable progress since our response to the call for evidence in September. As he is aware—the clue is in the name—a fundamental of the “trust framework” is that citizens can trust how their digital ID will be used.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, identity theft is a major, growing crime in this country and many people, particularly the elderly, are commonly relieved of their life savings. In the digital, financial and communications world, we all use fingerprint, facial and iris recognition applications to access our personal and financial information. They also safeguard travellers at airports. Unique DNA data has revolutionised crime investigation, resulting in serious historical crimes being detected. Does the noble Baroness agree that proof of identity brings welcome security to most people living in the modern world? However, for it to be trusted, we need to capture this biometric data, verify its authenticity and digitise it securely.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I absolutely agree that a secure and trusted digital ID framework can help reduce data breaches, identity fraud and some of the problems to which the noble Lord referred.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I remind the House of my interest as chair of the Proof of Age Standards Scheme board. I congratulate my noble friend and welcome the moves that the Government are making in this direction. However, mindful of the fact that digital identity verification is fiendishly complicated, I urge the Government to consult as widely as they can, to embrace the consequences for rural as well as urban areas and to ensure that any such framework is fit for purpose and will, as my noble friend says, be used safely and appropriately.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend makes an important point on which I absolutely agree. That is why we have taken this very transparent approach with the publication of the trust framework alpha. A second iteration will be published this summer and then, as I mentioned, further work towards legislation later this year.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the Government Digital Service is hiring a new head of design with the statement:
“Our vision is that citizens will be able to use one login for all government services.”
But we have already spent £200 million on Verify without notable success. Despite what seemed to be the intention in the call for evidence response of creating an open marketplace for verifiable credentials, are the Government really planning to reinvent Verify?
Baroness Barran (Con)
We are not planning to reinvent anything. We will continue to run the Verify system, plan for its retirement and the offboarding of services, while working closely with departments, including my own, to develop a viable long-term digital identity solution for all government, which will be called “One Login for Government”.
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Holmes on his persistence on this important subject. Does the Minister agree that we have to introduce a unified digital ID protocol for many reasons, not least the IT benefits for people’s well-being, which will require building equal digital opportunities, widespread digital literacy and strong digital security? For this to succeed, the Government need to introduce their own digital ID protocol as soon as possible and use that opportunity to consider launching further widespread digital literacy education campaigns.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I thank my noble friend for highlighting another opportunity for digital ID. The Government are committed to realising the benefits of these technologies, albeit without creating ID cards. My honourable friend the Minister for Digital Infrastructure and the Parliamentary Secretary at the Cabinet Office are working closely together, as both the trust framework and the single sign-on system for government are needed, so that users can control their data in line with the principles that we published in our response to the 2019 call for evidence.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
My Lords, anonymity online has encouraged people to say things that are rude, hurtful, untrue and, sometimes, murderous. This does huge damage to society and individuals, so could the Minister undertake that any move towards a distributed digital identity protocol would include an examination of how it might be used to prevent people hiding behind pseudonyms on social media?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness will know that issues around anonymity on social media are extremely complex. She rightly raises instances where anonymity is abused, but we also know that some people use anonymity and pseudonyms for their own protection. I will take her remarks back to the department.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on pursuing this issue so doggedly, and I challenge the Minister’s assertion that the Government are moving at pace on this. But it is crucial that our economy and public services move with the times. Bodies such as the Financial Action Task Force acknowledge the existence of risks if digital ID is not properly implemented. So how do the Government intend to strike the right balance between risk and reward in this important area?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Lord raises an important question. It will be through the transparency that I mentioned earlier, with the publication of the trust framework alpha and a second iteration, a beta version, which will be tested before going live.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
The Minister rightly stresses the importance of building public trust in all this. Given increasing concerns about the partisan fashion of so many recent public appointments, what are the Government doing to build broad support for forthcoming key appointments in this field, such as the new Information Commissioner, the new chair of the board at the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, and others?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I absolutely do not accept the noble Lord’s assertion about the political complexion of recent appointments. All go through the public appointments process and are entirely transparent.
Lord Etherton (CB)
My Lords, live automated recognition technology is currently on trial by the police, under the supervision and care of the Surveillance Commissioner. Is it envisaged that digitised identity will similarly be subject to the remit of the commissioner, or will they be run as completely separate issues of digitisation?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I welcome the noble and learned Lord to his place and thank him for his question. My understanding is that there will be a need for co-operation between different regulatory authorities. As he will be aware, we have not yet established the governance structure for digital identity—but if there is further information to share, I will write to the noble and learned Lord.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed and we now come to the third Oral Question.
Music Festivals: Covid-19-related Cancellations
Baroness Barran Excerpts(3 years ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce a government-backed insurance scheme to provide cover for music festivals this summer against COVID-related cancellations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of the UK’s live music sector. More than £21 million from the Culture Recovery Fund has supported over 100 music festivals to ensure that they survive and can put on events in future. We are aware of the sector’s concern about securing indemnity insurance, and we continue to assess all available options to provide further support as the public health context evolves.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that providing Covid insurance would help various groups of people—the creative sector, of course, and local communities, but, perhaps most importantly, the festival-going public, including many young people? The Government have provided indemnity for film and TV. They urgently need to do so for live events and save our festivals this summer.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government are extremely keen that the festival-going public should have a chance to enjoy live events as quickly as possible, and that is what is behind our events research programme, but we need to be absolutely confident that any scheme would result in an increase in activity.
Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Royal College of Music. My noble friend will be aware that many students rely on performances outside term time for income, which is vital to support their studies, and have therefore been particularly hard hit in this last year. Will she take the plight of students and recent graduates specifically into account when further considering this issue in order to ensure that the income of young performers is protected as far as possible this summer?
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend is of course right that that pipeline of performers is critical. I will share his concerns with colleagues in the department.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]
My Lords, I share the suggestion from my noble friend Lord Clancarty for help to jumpstart the insurance for live events. Is the Minister able to update us at all on bilateral talks involving work permits and visas? That is another aspect of a musician’s life that, combined with Covid, has created a very difficult position, as the Minister knows.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I can reassure the noble Lord that we are in conversations with individual member states focusing particularly on improving guidance regarding entry and work permit regulations. We are also looking carefully at proposals for a new export office to support this sector.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Budget extended the film and television insurance scheme to its present level of £2.8 billion, and it has supported 200 productions and saved an estimated 24,000 jobs. It therefore seems a little strange to recall that only yesterday the Minister said that the Government
“are trying to understand the market failure and how it impacts on different forms of live events.”—[Official Report, 26/4/21; col. 2074.]
She did not repeat that when she responded to the Question today. Will she explain what specific issues the department does not understand about this process?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am extremely happy to clarify those points. There are a number of interlocking issues—the noble Lord smiles, but it is true—into which we are carrying out reviews. I refer to the events research programme to understand the impact on public health as a result of those events; our review on social distancing; our review on certification and, which is connected, the global travel review.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, pointed out, the sector has already been impacted by the failure of the Brexit negotiations to protect the creative industries. In the Minister’s reply today, she did not say no—she said perhaps. Is it not time to stop squirming? We are now into April and this sector needs a decision.
Baroness Barran (Con)
We are not squirming and we are not hesitating. We are progressing as fast as we can, but the noble Lord would be the first to criticise the Government if we opened too early and the public health crisis re-emerged.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Minister is of course right that we should be continually guided by data, but slippage in the Government’s Covid road map will have a significant effect and impact this summer on staging music and other cultural festivals as well as large-scale sporting events, such as July’s British Grand Prix at Silverstone. I remind the Minister that the Chancellor said that when it came to economic support he would do whatever it takes, so why are the Government dragging their feet on matters such as insurance, leaving promoters and fans alike in limbo and unable to plan ahead?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I can only repeat that the Government are not dragging their feet. We have research pilots running in April and May that include an outdoor music festival in Sefton, and these will feed into decisions on step 4 of the road map in June. The evidence that we are gathering is aligned with the dates for the road map, but we cannot anticipate what that evidence will show.
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, I want to follow on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in relation to sporting events in general rather than high-profile ones. There are many lower-profile sporting events that require the booking of hundreds of hotel rooms and other facilities. If they cannot get insurance then those sporting events cannot take place, and they are planned literally years ahead.
Baroness Barran (Con)
My noble friend is right that the issue of indemnity cover cuts across a range of sectors. The Government have supported the sports sector both by allowing events to take place behind closed doors and through the £600 million sport survival fund.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]
My Lords, in response to my Question yesterday, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson mentioned, the Minister said that the Government were
“aware of the wider concerns around indemnity for live events and are trying to understand the market failure and how it impacts on different forms of live events.”—[Official Report, 26/4/21; col. 2074.]
Is it not simple? Does not this admission of market failure mean that intervention can be justified and should be acted upon?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am sure the noble Baroness would agree that before taking that decision we need to understand the impact on infection rates of removing or amending social distancing, not using masks, the role of certification and the impact of allowing global travel, which all have a bearing on the viability of these events.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, while I appreciate what my noble friend is seeking to do, will she accept that musicians face a triple whammy? First, if the festivals cannot be insured, they cannot perform at them; secondly, many of them are self-employed but do not benefit from the provisions that are designed to help the self-employed; and, thirdly, the visa problem compounds these others.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government have been very clear in acknowledging the multiple challenges that my noble friend has outlined. That is why we have announced major funding for the sector, particularly through the Culture Recovery Fund and, most recently, in the expansion of the self-employed income support scheme. We continue to work closely with the sector to ensure that we can respond as needed.
Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con) [V]
I declare my interest as a theatre producer and as chair of a leading live entertainment marketing company. The theatre sector—certainly the whole of the commercial sector—depends to a large extent on angels investing. Angels have always invested on the basis that a show can get business interruption insurance. I do not understand, and I wonder whether the Minister could explain, why the Government cannot prevail on insurance companies to do what their business is, which is to insure people. There may be an additional cost, but it seems to me that the problem lies with the insurance companies, not the Government.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I do not think this is about pointing a finger in one direction or another. We are trying to find a solution to this issue and are working with all the key stakeholders to do so.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. That concludes today’s Oral Questions.
Creative Industries: Covid-19
Baroness Barran Excerpts(3 years ago)
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Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of COVID-19 on the levelling up agenda in relation to the creative industries sector.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, our creative industries are a global success story, growing at four times the UK average before the pandemic struck. While the pandemic has had a heavy impact, particularly on audience-facing subsectors, the Government have provided them with unprecedented levels of support through the £1.57 billion cultural recovery fund and the £500 million TV and film production restart scheme. Both these schemes have supported businesses across the UK and will help to ensure that the sector can return to growth as soon as public health conditions permit.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)
I thank the Minister for her reply. The Budget included the levelling-up fund, which drew attention to the importance of the creative sector in this endeavour, so why are the Government so resistant to working with the industry to create a scheme for insurance cover for festivals and live events? Without this, and as long as the threat of the pandemic continues, events that are so important to local economies and local jobs will not happen this summer. Does the Minister agree that in preventing such an insurance scheme the Government are taking a backwards step in their bid to level up the country?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government absolutely do not accept that we are taking any backwards step, either in support of the creative industries or in relation to levelling up. We have offered substantial practical help through setting out a very clear road map and identifying an events research programme to get those events going. We are aware of the wider concerns about securing indemnity for live events and are continuing to explore what further support we can offer.
Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests. Many creative industry venues, which are important dimensions in the tourist economy, have been devastated by Covid. Can the Minister confirm that the levelling-up fund may consider projects aimed at making these venues more secure against Covid while maintaining their audience capacity and giving audiences the confidence that they need to attend such venues, and that it will be in order for local authorities throughout the UK to submit applications to the fund in support of such projects?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The levelling-up fund has very explicitly focused on the importance of cultural and creative spaces in regenerating those areas and includes new and upgraded community hubs of the very type to which the noble Lord refers.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
I declare my interest as a former member of the Advisory Committee on Pop Festivals and my other interests as set out in the register. As the Minister knows, festivals are often a major foundation of artistic activity outside our great cities, but many of those planned for this summer are already being cancelled because of uncertainty over Covid. Do Her Majesty’s Government have plans to assist?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Government recognise the importance of the live music sector more broadly, and music festivals in particular, which is why more than £34 million from our cultural recovery fund has supported festivals, including Boomtown, Shambala, Glastonbury and Deer Shed. As I said in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, we are aware of the wider concerns around indemnity for live events and are trying to understand the market failure and how it impacts on different forms of live events.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
I declare an interest as a freelance TV producer making content for Netflix and the Sony Channel. Organisations representing freelancers have called for a freelance commissioner to be established, as many are not covered by the Small Business Commissioner. During the past year, 45% of freelancers have fallen into debt or used up their savings. Millions of others in the creative industries are struggling to find work. Does the Minister agree that it is essential to set up a commissioner dedicated to supporting employment rights and employment obligations for freelancers?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I agree with the noble Viscount that freelancers are a critical part of our creative industries and that we should explore many ways of ensuring their success in future. That is why we recently extended the pan-economy self-employment income support scheme with individuals now able to qualify for grants based on their 2019-29 tax return, meaning that more than 600,000 self-employed individuals will be newly eligible for the scheme.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, which include my membership of two trusts involved in cultural activities. In many of our most deprived communities, the cultural industries have taken a severe hit. Given that they are closely aligned with the hospitality sector, what plans do the Government have to develop a national plan to help the hard-pressed cultural sector recover as we emerge from lockdown? Can the Minister say some more about the support the Government are likely to give to freelancers, who have been frozen out of many of the schemes supporting workers in the cultural sector?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I just commented on the expansion of the scheme, which we think will include many new freelancers who are self-employed. The Government share the noble Lord’s concerns about support for our deprived communities and see cultural assets as critical in their revival. That is why more than two-thirds of the Culture Recovery Fund has been spent outside London and why we have a major series of funds, including the levelling-up fund, the community renewal fund and, in future, the shared prosperity fund, all of which have a creative industries strand within them.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, a number of groups in the creative industries are falling between the cracks in government support. For example, recent BECTU figures show that the overall number of black and minority-ethnic workers employed in the theatre industry has fallen by 19% over the last year, compared with a 3% overall reduction in the number of white workers. Does the Minister agree that levelling up must be about disadvantaged groups as well as geography? What can the levelling-up fund do for the creative industries in this respect?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Lord is right to raise these points. Absolutely, levelling up should cut across a number of axes, including the one the noble Lord raises. We are working to improve this area. At Budget the Chancellor announced a new approach to apprenticeships in the creative industries, with £7 million of pilot funding to test flexi-job apprenticeships that might suit better the working practices of the creative industries. Over 1,300 creative industry placements are now available via the Department for Work and Pensions Kickstart scheme.
Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)
My Lords, I recognise the substantial support the Government have given the creative industries and pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister and her officials for all their hard work. When she mentioned apprentices, it reminded me that the BBC has announced that it will employ 1,000 apprentices. Will she join me in recognising the crucial role the BBC and other public service broadcasters play in levelling up, given their increased regional presence? For example, the BBC now makes 60% of its programmes outside London.
Baroness Barran (Con)
As my noble friend is well aware, the BBC is operationally and editorially independent from government, but I share his warm welcome for the BBC’s recent announcement that it plans to move 60% of network TV commissioning spend and 50% of network radio and music spend outside London.
Baroness Prashar (CB) [V]
Does the Minister agree that, while levelling-up action must give priority to investment in creative and cultural enterprises across all regions, investment in arts and humanities education is equally important and crucial for innovation and creativity? This aspect is not often valued. What are the Government doing to ensure that this significant area is not overlooked?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness makes a good point. She will be aware that much of the work we are doing today stems from the creative industries sector deal, which includes an important plank focusing on skills, just as the noble Baroness suggests.
Gambling: Early Mortality
Baroness Barran Excerpts(3 years ago)
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The Lord Bishop of St Albans
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the research by Dr Naomi Muggleton linking gambling and early mortality, published in Nature Human Behaviour on 4 February, what plans they have to transfer responsibility for gambling policy to the Department of Health and Social Care.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, responsibility for gambling is shared across departments. DCMS leads on industry regulation, which is key to harm prevention. DHSC leads on gambling as a health issue and on treatment, and we work closely together. We are pleased to see more research being done and we are considering the findings carefully. Dr Muggleton’s research shows a correlation between higher gambling spend and lower well-being but does not look at causes.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
I thank the Minister for her response. As the recent research suggests, gambling-related harm and problem gambling produce a negative result across a whole variety of indicators, including health. Despite this, the Government continue to hold on to the idea that the industry is a net contributor to the Treasury, without taking into account the huge other costs being incurred. Will the Government consider undertaking a comprehensive study of the direct and associated costs, such as health, incarcerations, homelessness and social welfare, all caused by gambling harm, which materially affect the Treasury’s receipts?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The right reverend Prelate raises important points. He will be aware that Public Health England is doing research at the moment, looking at how to reduce gambling harms and how to recoup the costs to society, which I hope will go some way to reassuring him.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the excellent Select Committee report may not have endorsed the current split in policy leadership but it made it very clear that DCMS had a lot to do. In that context, can the Minister confirm that the online harms Bill will deal with underage gambling and issues raised by the question put by the right reverend Prelate, such as an association between gambling and early mortality—and if not, why not?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The main focus for addressing the issues that the noble Lord rightly raises is through our review of the Gambling Act. The online safety Bill, as he is aware, will focus on user-generated content in particular.
Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)
My Lords, with reference to my interests as set out in the register, and bearing in mind the good advice that prevention is always better than cure, would my noble friend tell the House how many schools have included teaching students about the risks of potential gambling harm in PSHE classes or, indeed, whether schools are being actively encouraged to incorporate that important subject?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The Department for Education does not record how schools teach their pupils about gambling, but young people will be taught about gambling risks as part of the statutory health education curriculum, including the accumulation of debt. Training modules have been developed for teachers, including a specific section on gambling.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]
My Lords, only 3% of problem gamblers currently receive treatment. The planned new gambling clinics will help, but far more is needed. Given that one gambling company owner earned nearly £0.5 billion last year, much of it from problem gamblers, should not all gambling companies pay more to fund treatment through a compulsory levy?
Baroness Barran (Con)
As I mentioned in response to an earlier question, that is one of the issues that will be considered as part of the review of the Gambling Act. I can update the House that there has been an increased donation this year to GambleAware from the industry of £19 million, up from £10 million last year, and next year’s donation is forecast to be £26 million.
Lord Moynihan (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that Dr Muggleton stressed that the report could not say whether the association between gambling and any negative effect, including increased mortality, was causal? As a result, does she agree that in government DCMS should continue to focus on the most vulnerable through advertising and the location of betting shops in impoverished neighbourhoods rather than make policies drawn on direct causal links which the research does not conclude?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I can agree with my noble friend’s first statement. I would just expand on his suggestion about the role of DCMS. The department is very clear that we have an important role in protecting vulnerable people who may be harmed by gambling in particular, and we work across government to achieve that.
Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)
My Lords, I cannot support the change in departmental responsibility suggested in the right reverend Prelate’s Question, but this is clearly a matter that raises the responsibilities of a wide range of government departments. What are the Government’s arrangements for enhancing departmental co-operation in addressing this crucial issue? Will they, for example, establish a bespoke departmental committee to co-ordinate action?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am not aware of specific plans such as those the noble Lord suggests, but I can reassure the House that co-operation between departments on this important matter is strong and effective.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]
Does the Minister agree with the comment of the Lancet Public Health last January, that:
“Gambling disorders often remain undiagnosed and untreated”,
and its call for a scientific inquiry into this
“urgent, neglected, understudied, and worsening public health predicament”?
If not, how would she describe it? Are the Government, as part of their review of gambling, considering the practicalities of a statutory duty of care for gambling companies, similar to the one we expect to be in the online safety Bill?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Lord raises an interesting point. It is significant, in relation to disorders such as gambling problems remaining hidden, that the Gambling Commission has recently appointed a panel of individuals with lived experience to advise it formally on player safety. We hope this means that currently hidden issues will become more visible, and we will be able to address them.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, despite the Government’s cross-departmental insistence that treatment for gambling problems will be prioritised, the scope of the call for evidence in the review of the Gambling Act 2005 made no mention of a public health approach. Such an approach would allow the treatment of gambling problems to be delivered in the same way as drug and alcohol addictions are treated. The Minister is aware of this. What action does she intend to take to rectify it?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I recognise the noble Baroness’s point about the specific language around public health, but if we look at what constitutes a public health approach, we see that it is inherent in the work being carried out. In particular, the Gambling Commission, as part of its role, looks broadly at the products, the players and the environment in which they operate.
Lord Mann (Non-Afl)
The vast majority of people who follow horseracing and football have no gambling problems whatever. Addiction manifests itself in many different ways. Does the Minister agree that it is the role of the Department of Health and Social Care to get into the precise causation that creates addictive behaviour, in whatever form it manifests itself?
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Lord is right. That is why the Department of Health and Social Care is leading on the addiction strategy and the addiction treatment strategy for the Government, and why the review of the Act seeks to strike the right balance between consumer freedom and preventing harm.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]
My Lords, nobody doubts my noble friend’s commitment, but in view of the need to protect, in particular, vulnerable children from gambling addiction, can she say when the Government last convened a meeting with the Department for Education, the Department of Health and Social Care and the Treasury to consider these issues, which are clearly of great importance?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I am not aware of the exact date to give to my noble friend, but I can reassure him that the issue that raised the most contributions in response to our call for evidence was the protection of children and young people.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.