Football: European Super League

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reform the governance of English football to prevent the breakaway of six Premier League clubs into a European Super League.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will not stand by and watch football be stripped of the things that make millions across the country love it. We will continue to look at everything within our power to stop this proposal going ahead. The Secretary of State spoke to the FA, the Premier League and UEFA yesterday to give them the Government’s full support in pushing back on these proposals in the first instance. However, we stand ready to do whatever is necessary to represent fans and protect their interests.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the six English clubs that have signed up to this grotesque project have, in the words of Stephen Fry on social media yesterday,

“brought together the whole divided nation, indeed all of Europe—everyone united in disgust & revulsion at such greed and stupidity.”

I look forward to hearing more in due course about how the Government plan to stop it. Meanwhile, I welcome the announcement of the setting up of the Government’s fan-led review into the administration of English football, chaired by the excellent Tracey Crouch MP. Can the Minister assure me that the terms of reference for the review will definitely include the possibility of establishing a statutory independent regulator? Reform here is long overdue.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his warm welcome to the announcement of the fan-led review and its chair. I can confirm that it will cover the merits of having an independent regulator, as well as financial sustainability and governance.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, do the Government agree that many people regard this proposal as an attack on our cultural heritage? In light of that, will they be even fiercer in trying to prevent these clubs forming in effect a cartel to control the revenues of the biggest spectator sport in the world? Will they make sure that other European nations are actively involved with them in preventing this?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We absolutely agree that this is an attack on our heritage, and nothing is off the table when it comes to protecting it, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said yesterday.

[Lord Laming (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the clubs supporting this proposal often claim that their fans are the beating heart of all that they do, yet sometimes it seems as if the loyalty of these very fans counts for little. Yesterday’s ministerial Statement was most welcome, but can the noble Baroness assure the House that, before any further action is taken, each of these clubs will be required to put the proposal to a vote, at least of their season ticket holders?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It will be up to the football authorities in the first instance to determine how to deal with this proposal but, as I have made clear, they have our full backing.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con) [V]]

My forecast on the outcome of the Super League proposal will be some resolution through the courts, not the legislatures. The last time the courts were involved in football governance we ended up with the Bosman ruling, which just created more and more millionaire players and their agents, which was hardly in the public interest. Do this Government accept that they may well be powerless to intervene when my learned friends on both sides of the channel start to challenge the cartels that run football on behalf of the Super League?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope that my noble friend’s prediction about a resolution in the courts is wrong, because that implies a long and drawn-out process. As I have said, the Government are exploring all options to prevent this proposal, and we will continue to work with the football authorities and our counterparts across Europe to achieve this.

[Lord Pendry (Lab)]

My Lords, I commend the robust stance taken by the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and all those who have condemned this proposal for a so-called super league. It is unfortunate that five of the six clubs involved are foreign owned, with clearly no understanding of the depth of feeling of British supporters, who recognise that the football league structure is based on our heritage. Therefore, we must fight to ensure that this Super League is swept away and that football does not fall on the altar of greed and avarice. It was one of the great football managers, the late Bill Shankly at Liverpool, who once slightly exaggerated the interpretation of football’s importance when he said that football is not,

“a matter of life and death: it’s much more important than that.”

If Bill were here today, what would he think of his beloved Liverpool pursuing this act of folly? Will the Minister go along with the football supporters to show this group of individuals the red flag, or should I say the red card?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not think that the owners of the clubs to which the noble Lord refers can be in any doubt about the strength of feeling both from the fans and from this Government.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister ask Tracey Crouch to hold public hearings around the regions while she conducts her inquiry?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure that she will consider all her options to make sure that this is a transparent and effective review.

[Lord O'Neill of Gatley (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too express my disgust at this development. It is the culmination of many years of the style of ownership that has been so permissible under the way football has evolved. I am extremely sad that my own football obsession, Manchester United, is right in the middle of it. I applaud the Government’s seemingly strong stance. In this regard, I echo the call from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for an independent regulator to stop things persistently falling through the cracks of the structure of the FA, the Football League and the Premier League. Will the Government be prepared to go as far as introducing legislation to encourage a partial fan-based ownership model, similar to that currently operating in Germany? It is almost definitely, with no surprise, among the reasons why no German teams have been announced as part of this ridiculously named European Super League.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have been consulting with fans and football stakeholders throughout the past year to understand exactly what is needed in the review. The Prime Minister and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State have both said that legislation is not ruled out, but we should not pre-empt the work of the review, which will start shortly.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, commend the Government on their robust response. As a Tottenham Hotspur supporter, a club that is involved in this, I, too, join in the condemnation of this idea. It seems to revolve around money rather than football. I ask my noble friend whether the Treasury might consider international tax co-ordination to address this issue via financial means?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises an interesting point. We have been clear that the football authorities are best placed to push back on these proposals in the first instance—they have our backing—but that nothing is off the table if they fail to do so.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thought Gary Neville spoke for millions of us football fans at the weekend when he condemned the Super League proposals. Can the Minister set out the sort of legal measures the Government are prepared to deploy in order to protect the competition laws that govern the current fair access system on which the football pyramid has long been built? When will the Secretary of State set out the terms for the fan-led review announced yesterday, when will it start and how will it seek to draw on the fan anger rightly directed at this football-destroying proposition?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

With regard to the fan-led review, we will be releasing the full terms of reference imminently. In relation to the noble Lord’s question about what the Government can practically do to prevent this, we are looking at everything from governance reform, as I mentioned, to competition law and all the mechanisms which allow football to take place. We have been in close contact with colleagues from BEIS and the Competition and Markets Authority, who are examining whether this would contravene competition law.

[Lord King of Lothbury (CB) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that the outpouring of concern about the proposed European Super League shows that the organisation of professional football is not just a matter for private clubs to determine among themselves and that the relationship between clubs and their fans is not the same as that between a supermarket and its customers? Has not the time come to create a regulatory framework within which the governance and finances of the game can be managed with a degree of competence that has been sadly lacking in recent years?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right, and this will be covered in our fan-led review. I think the House will share my confidence in Tracey Crouch as its chair, as the former Minister for Sport is very well placed to lead this.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I react with some horror to the proposals for yet another regulator, which will end up simply being gamed by the big clubs, as most regulators tend to be. Instead I second the remarks of my noble friend Lady Altmann, who said that there should be a fiscal solution to this problem by way of imposing a non-dodgeable tax on sports clubs joining closed leagues, which I suggest should be equivalent to 100% of their broadcasting revenues. Would my noble friend be willing to put this to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There is great elegance in the apparent simplicity of my noble friend’s suggestions, but I just repeat that in the first instance, it is for the football authorities to deal with this and respond to the outpouring that we have heard from across the country.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, clubs cannot hoover up £300 million a year and pay the world’s best players wages that nobody else can match so that they can dominate domestic competitions as well. Fans of other clubs, such as Leicester, West Ham and my club, Villa, could never dream of competing for domestic trophies ever again. It is a closed shop cartel, anti-competition, anti fair play, and anti the very ethos of sport. Of course the football authorities should take a tough line, but the Government should be looking at this as well. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, is entirely correct: given that this is just about money, would not the threat of a windfall tax make the clubs think again?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I share many of the noble Lord’s sentiments, other than the implication that we are not taking this seriously: we are taking it extremely seriously. The Prime Minister had a round table this morning with all the relevant authorities and, as I said, nothing is off the table.

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that this outrageous proposal is a consequence of men who are rich enough to buy a football club but who do not buy into the values of football in this country? We all accept that Tracey Crouch is someone we have confidence in to undertake a review, but surely there is an urgency about this that requires action at the moment along the lines that have been suggested, including early legislation for an independent regulator, an assurance that fans can have a golden share and whatever fiscal measures might be needed to make it not worth the while of these clubs to go down this path?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness is hugely knowledgeable and passionate on this subject, and I have enjoyed listening to her in the Chamber in debates on football ownership and governance in the past. It is important that we separate out the immediate urgencies of the issues raised by this proposal. It will not surprise her to know that Ministers and officials were working on this over the weekend as soon as we became aware, as well as addressing some of the wider governance and regulatory issues and funding issues that affect the whole pyramid.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 25 February be approved.

Relevant document: 48th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 April

Motion agreed.

Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) Regulations 2021.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to introduce this instrument, which was laid in both Houses on 25 February and is being made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. This instrument will remedy certain failures of retained EU law arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU. It addresses minor and technical issues in domestic law after transposition of the audio-visual media services directive by the Audiovisual Media Services Regulations 2020, and is necessary to ensure that the law remains fit for purpose beyond the end of the transition period.

These regulations amend references to EU legislation, substituting domestic law references and making references to EU legislation ambulatory where appropriate. They also remove the requirement for Ofcom to notify the European Commission of services in scope falling within the UK’s jurisdiction, and address Ofcom’s co-operation with EU member state regulators.

I will now look at the regulations in more detail. The audio-visual media services directive, also known as the AVMS directive, is long-standing EU legislation that co-ordinates the regulation of audio-visual media services. The AVMS directive was revised in 2018 to take into account changes to the media landscape since the last revision of the directive in 2010.

The UK’s Audiovisual Media Services Regulations 2020, which transposed the revised AVMS directive, were made and laid in Parliament on 30 September 2020. Those regulations came into force on 1 November 2020. They introduced rules for video-sharing platform services for the first time, with Ofcom as the national regulatory authority for video-sharing platforms falling under the UK’s jurisdiction. The new rules for video-sharing platforms stipulate that platforms which have the required connection with the UK must have appropriate systems and processes to protect the public, including minors, from illegal and harmful material. The “required connection with the UK” means that if the platform provider is established in the UK, or if a group undertaking of the provider is established in the UK and the service is not regulated by another EEA country, Ofcom will in those circumstances have jurisdiction to regulate the video-sharing platform service.

Three key requirements have been placed on video-sharing platforms: first, to take appropriate measures to protect minors aged under 18 from harmful content; secondly, to take appropriate measures to protect the general public from material inciting hatred or violence, and certain illegal content; and thirdly, to introduce standards around advertising.

Ofcom is currently actively engaging with platforms that may be affected and has published guidance on scope and jurisdiction. In March, Ofcom published draft guidance for consultation on the list of measures that video-sharing platforms can take to protect users from harmful material. More vigorous regulation will commence once all guidance on video-sharing platform regulation has been published later this year.

I now draw the attention of the Committee to the report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee considering this instrument, and thank it for its work. The committee’s helpful report flagged two key areas: first, Ofcom’s power to co-operate with EU regulators and, secondly, the delay in the introduction of the online safety Bill.

I will first address the committee’s concern that replacing Ofcom’s duty to co-operate with a power to co-operate with EU regulators could result in uncertainty regarding enforcement for platforms whose services are used in the UK but where the platform is based and regulated outside of the UK.

Co-operation and sharing information between national regulatory authorities is helpful for the purpose of enabling authorities to fulfil their functions in the most efficient and joined-up way, and to collaborate on matters of common interest. In this post-transition period, co-operation continues to be important and this instrument provides Ofcom with the power to co-operate with its EU member-state counterparts. Engagement with other national regulatory authorities will be helpful to resolve any jurisdictional issues and help ensure that UK users are protected from illegal material appearing on a video-sharing platform where the provider of the platform does not have the required connection with the UK.

Ofcom will be able to use this power in a number of circumstances: addressing jurisdictional matters, such as determining where a provider is established; co-ordinating enforcement action; engaging to ensure cross-border compliance; and exchanging regulatory best practice. Without that power, Ofcom would be able to engage only in non-case specific informal co-operation with other EU regulators—for example, exchanging regulatory best practice rather than co-ordinating enforcement action. This could result in a lack of transparency between regulators and could lead to less effective protection of UK users, including minors.

Although this instrument does not guarantee that EU counterparts will reciprocate and co-operate with Ofcom, these regulations show a willingness on the part of the UK Government that Ofcom should engage and promote collaboration in this important area of online safety. Leaving a duty to co-operate in place would be inappropriate because of the lack of reciprocity from EU member states, and would provide no incentive for EU national regulatory authorities to co-operate with Ofcom.

I will now address the committee’s concerns about the timing and introduction of the online safety Bill. While we recognise the importance of being online and the benefits that this can bring, we acknowledge that online safety is a major concern. There are serious risks that users, especially children, currently face when they are online, and the prevalence of the most serious illegal content and activity online is unacceptable. We are working at pace to prepare online safety legislation, which will be ready this year. In the meantime, we are working closely with Ofcom and will continue to engage with parliamentarians as we prepare the legislation.

The current regulation of video-sharing platforms shares broadly the same objectives as the upcoming online safety legislation. In particular, it places requirements on UK-established video-sharing platforms to have systems in place to protect their users. The online safety regime will be broader and is expected to apply to a much wider range of online platforms. It is therefore the Government’s intention that the UK video-sharing platform regime in Part 4B of the Communications Act 2003 will be repealed and superseded by the online safety legislation once the latter has been implemented. Ahead of the repeal, Ofcom, through regulating video-sharing platforms, is gaining invaluable knowledge about systems regulation and how best to keep UK users safe online. This knowledge and experience will help the Government to meet our objective to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords for their valuable and insightful contributions to this debate. I will do my best to answer the points raised in the time allowed, but if I run out of time I will of course write to your Lordships.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friends Lord Holmes and Lord Kirkhope asked how this approach would work in practice in terms of co-ordination with EU regulators. I believe that I covered some of this in my opening remarks. I would just add that the UK and the EU have similar objectives regarding online harms and continue to share similar values. Both the digital services Act and the online safety legislation will set out new expectations on companies to ensure that they have proportionate systems and processes in place to mitigate risk and to keep their users safe online. We are committed to working with our European and international partners, as well as businesses themselves, to understand how we can implement these existing frameworks better. However, I would like to be clear, in response to many noble Lords’ requests for clarification on jurisdiction, that our forthcoming online safety regime will regulate platforms irrespective of jurisdiction.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked which platforms would be regulated by this new instrument. From 6 April this year, VSP providers in UK jurisdictions have been legally obliged to notify their services to Ofcom. Existing providers have one month—until 6 May —to notify their services, and the list of providers will be published shortly thereafter. We expect, and this is very important in light of the very valid concerns that your Lordships raised, that this will include some smaller platforms that have never previously been in scope of regulation.

A number of questions were asked about ambulatory references. These ensure that UK law reflects updates to the definition of European works and/or the relevant guidance attached to that, so that when the EU makes changes to legislation, a full legislative process has to be gone through and the UK will therefore get a reasonably lengthy period of notice in which to consider whether or not to disapply the ambulatory reference. As a matter of policy, however, the UK wants to keep close to the EU on the definition of European works, which is why the definition is ambulatory. It is also a technical definition and has links to the European Convention on Transfrontier Television, to which the UK is a party.

A number of questions, including from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, were asked about the use of age-assurance and age-verification measures within the video-sharing platform regime. Age assurance is one possible appropriate measure in the VSP framework. In order to comply with the VSP regime, age-assurance measures may be adopted by VSPs, along with other measures such as age ratings and parental controls. When considering which measures are needed to protect users adequately, platform providers must consider what is practicable and proportionate, which includes taking into account the rights of users.

Ofcom is committed to promoting best practice in this area within the VSP regime, and its guidance is consistent with the guidance on establishing age within the Information Commissioner’s age-appropriate design code. Throughout the duration of the regime, Ofcom will work with the ICO to provide clarity on roles and coherence in approach. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that this will be done with a risk-based approach, both in this regime and in the forthcoming online safety regime.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, asked whether Ofcom had sufficient resources to fulfil its role. Ahead of the online safety Bill we are working closely with the regulator to understand the challenges that it faces, and we are working to ensure that it has the resources, processes and expertise to start building its capability as an effective regulator of VSPs and of course, importantly, as the future online safety regulator.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, asked again about jurisdiction and the regulation of platforms not established in the UK. VSPs that are not established in the UK will be regulated not by Ofcom but rather by the EEA state in which they are established. Ofcom will regulate VSPs that are not established in the UK but have a group undertaking in the UK, if the VSP does not fall under the jurisdiction of an EEA state. We hope that the regulation provided by other EU member states will be effective enough to provide protection to UK users in the interim. But, as I said earlier, our online safety regulation is intended to be the long-term regulatory framework.

Lastly in relation to this instrument, my noble friend Lord Kirkhope asked about the regulation of advertising. Under the VSP regime, the requirements placed on providers with regard to restricted material and relevant harmful material in videos apply to adverts as well.

In the time remaining, I will turn to the online harms legislation. Most noble Lords asked me to clarify the timing of the online safety Bill. We are working at pace to prepare the legislation, which will be ready this year. As for pre-legislative scrutiny, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for his kind remarks about our engagement with parliamentarians, which we have found extremely useful. We will make a final decision on pre-legislative scrutiny nearer the time of introduction, but your Lordships will have heard the Secretary of State say that he is minded to undertake it.

A number of noble Lords asked for clarification on what would be included in the new regulatory framework. In brief, the framework will prioritise action to tackle illegal content and the protection of children. All companies in scope will need to tackle illegal content on their services and protect children. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, cited some of the most troubling examples of legal but harmful content. In that case, companies will be required to set out clearly what content and behaviour are acceptable on their services.

I fear that I am running out of time and have not answered all noble Lords’ questions. I will follow up in writing. As I have set out clearly today, these regulations are required to fix the remaining issues of the transposition of the AVMS directive to ensure that the law remains clear and operable beyond the transition period. This instrument will allow Ofcom to continue regulating video-sharing platforms effectively and will give it the power to co-operate with EU regulators when it is appropriate to do so. This will help to ensure that online users, particularly those under the age of 18, will benefit from the protection from illegal and harmful content provided by Ofcom’s regulation of video-sharing platforms ahead of the upcoming online safety legislation. With that, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Social Media: Offensive Material

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are planning to take to remove anonymity from persons who post racist and other similarly offensive material attacking (1) sportspeople, and (2) other high profile public figures, on social media sites.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are clear that being anonymous online does not give anyone the right to abuse others. We are taking steps through the online harms regulatory framework to ensure that online abuse is addressed, whether anonymous or not. The police already have a range of legal powers to identify individuals who attempt to use anonymity to escape sanctions for online abuse. We are working with law enforcement to review whether the current powers are sufficient to tackle illegal anonymous abuse online.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

Can the noble Baroness be more specific about what the online safety Bill will achieve? Presumably, it will force social media companies to take down the racist and sexist rantings of some of their customers and lead to prosecutions where the abuse goes far beyond any free-speech justification. How much has happened since the Culture Secretary’s welcome statement on 8 February that those companies can start showing their duty of care to footballers today by weeding out racist abuse now, and will football be a specific priority in the hate crime unit looking at online discrimination against protected characteristics, as specified under the 2010 Equality Act?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are absolutely committed to making the internet a safe place for all, and of course that includes footballers and other public figures, but it also, very importantly, includes children, other vulnerable people and the general public. A key part of making this work is the duty of care that we will be imposing on social media companies, with clear systems of user redress and strong enforcement powers from Ofcom. I am happy to take the noble Lord’s suggestions regarding the place of footballers within the hate crime unit back to the department and, in relation to the equalities issue which he raises, he will be aware that it was very clear in the 2019 social media good practice code that social media companies are expected to have regard to protected characteristics.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford [V]]

My Lords, the requirement to love our neighbours as ourselves makes practical demands of our online behaviour: not only what is posted but also what is endorsed, what is given the oxygen of repetition and what is tolerated. The digital common good is threatened from both sides: by those who post racist and offensive material and by some social media sites that craft algorithms to curate, propagate and perpetuate in order to maximise income. So will the Government give urgent consideration to implementing a code of practice for both hate crime and wider legal harms, perhaps along the lines of the model code that Carnegie UK and a number of other civil society organisations, including my office, recently co-drafted?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate raises very important points. He will be aware that the Law Commission is reviewing the legislation in relation to offensive online communications to make sure that it is fit for purpose, and that its final recommendations will be made this summer. We are also working more widely with law enforcement to review whether we have sufficient powers to address illegal abuse online.

[Baroness Verma (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend include, in the reporting and duty of care on social media companies, harassment and bullying in the way that we have seen happen when people break off relationships or are threatened because they do not agree with a particular point of view? I have heard from a number of people who have been very frightened of going back on to social media because of the attacks that they have had to endure. Will she also make sure that media companies have enough resources to police and that the required processes are in place to do so?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises important points about harassment and bullying. The pile-on harassment to which she refers is one of the specific issues that the Law Commission will be making recommendations on. She mentioned the resources of social media companies, and we are less concerned about them. We feel that they have ample resources, but we will also make sure that Ofcom is fully resourced to respond.

[Baroness Prashar (CB) [V]]

My Lords, although we need to protect freedom of speech, urgent action is needed to deal with abuse of free speech on social media. Does the Minister agree that social media outlets should be required to remove material that contravenes race hate and libel laws and limit how many times messages are forwarded, as those who post racist and other offensive materials are not entitled to have their voices amplified?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right: what is illegal offline should be illegal online, and it is very clear that the social media companies should remove that content. Where there is harmful but legal content, they need to have very clear systems and processes to make sure that it can be removed quickly.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not just a problem for famous people. If anything, it is a much more serious problem for members of the public. For example, mothers campaigning in Scotland to get schools reopened last year were attacked by anonymous cybernats and their children were threatened via direct messages on Twitter. Twitter is a real problem here, but there is a very simple solution, which is for Twitter or the Government to ban anonymous accounts. That would stop the abuse, it would ensure that anybody who tries to be abusive or threatening can be prosecuted and it would be a simple measure for those running Twitter, given the scale of their operation now, to introduce. Will the Government call them in, insist on it and, if they will not do it themselves, do it for them?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of the general public and the troubling example that he just shared with the House. However, banning anonymous accounts is not as simple as he suggests. They provide important protection for a wide range of vulnerable people, as well as journalists’ sources and others—so these are complex issues that we aim to address through the Bill.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am interested in the Minister’s comment that the department is in discussions with the police about the use of existing powers. Would it not be a good idea for the police to pursue a number of high-profile cases of bullying of children, rampant racism or threats to our democracy under existing powers until we get the proper legislation in place?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Just to be clear, I was speaking on behalf of the Government in conversation with the police. The noble Lord will be aware that the primary responsibility for this matter sits with the Home Office. The police are independent in how they pursue these cases.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, about ordinary people who are humiliated and persecuted. May I suggest to my noble friend that, when looking at strengthening the law, the Government look at increasing penalties on media companies that do not obey the laws? Nothing has more effect than hitting the pocket.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right and the framework will aim to protect all users, particularly children and vulnerable users. As for hitting the pocket, she may be aware that the maximum fine that can be levied in future will be 10% of global turnover.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

Footballers, women sports commentators and public figures generally receive daily racist, homophobic, misogynist vile abuse and personal threats inciting hatred and physical attacks. The Minister has promised that the Government will act against this in the online harms legislation. Players and commentators alike have acted against abuse but they need support. When will the Government bring forward their Bill; are they waiting for the Law Commission; what will its scope be in tackling abuse; will its codes be voluntary or statutory; what powers will Ofcom have to act; and will the Bill contain measures removing the anonymity of abusers, difficult though that may be, who post abusive material?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I may answer a number of the noble Lord’s questions in writing but the Bill will be brought forward this year.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB) [V]]

Facebook already has a real-names policy but users often provide fake ID. To enforce real-name identity, a government-backed ID scheme would have to be introduced. However, bearing in mind the current public suspicion of surrendering personal data to tech platforms, are there any plans for the Government to introduce such a digital ID policy for all users?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have an open mind on all these issues and the noble Viscount will be aware that the Secretary of State has indicated that he is minded to have pre-legislative scrutiny, which will provide a chance for transparent and robust scrutiny of issues such as that.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, we come to the fourth Oral Question.

British Library Board (Power to Borrow) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Vaizey for bringing forward this Bill, which was successfully taken through the other place by my honourable friend Bim Afolami, the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden. I would also like to thank Dame Carol Black for the time she has given me in preparing for today’s debate. The Bill has had no amendments and enjoys government support.

I also thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, just said, it is a short but important Bill that seeks to bring the British Library in line with its peers. As we have heard, the British Library Act 1972 created a vital new national institution—even if my noble friend Lord Hannan does not admire the architecture—but this same legislation is preventing the library from potentially accessing an opportunity to support its future.

As we have heard in the speeches of noble Lords, this is an institution that has touched all our lives. My last visit was made with my noble friend Lord Cormack to see the history of writing exhibition and the remarkable Leonardo da Vinci notebooks. When I ran a charity, it was my favourite place for meetings when we could not afford to hire meeting rooms, because of the excellent business centre and even better tea room, so I am a huge personal fan.

In the 21st century, we expect our national cultural institutions to be more self-governing and financially independent. That is exactly what the operational freedoms introduced for our national museums and galleries in 2013—which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, acknowledged were particularly helpful—help them to be. The British Library enjoys all these freedoms except one: the power to borrow. This Bill will remove the legislative barrier that prevents the British Library having the same freedom to borrow that its fellow national museums and galleries already enjoy.

I will comment on some of the points raised by noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Vaizey raised the public lending right. This is something that we work on with the British Library annually and is determined at the spending review. Over 22,000 authors benefit from public lending right payments and the rate per loan has increased by 58% since 2010-11.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lords, Lord Eatwell, Lord Thomas of Gresford, Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bassam of Brighton, questioned the relationship between the powers to borrow that the Bill would give the British Library and its access to grant in aid. The two are separate; I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, of that.

Questions were raised about our funding for national museums, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, for his eloquent exposition on the merits of having a commercial element. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, would feel the same in relation to philanthropy. The Government remain committed to supporting our world-class national museums and galleries, which make such a rich contribution to our society and economy, and are implementing the recommendations of the Mendoza review and the range of funding sources that it identified.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, questioned whether the British Library should sit within the DCMS or elsewhere in government. He is right that it plays a critical role in research, but we heard from other noble Lords about its strengths in many other areas. The commitment I make is that, while it stays in the DCMS, we will endeavour to do everything in our power to make sure that it continues to be the extraordinary success that it is today.

My noble friend Lord Holmes asked me to reflect on the British Library’s role in levelling up. I agree entirely with him that it has an important part to play. We remain fully supportive of all its efforts on accessibility for those with disabilities. He gave a good example with the business and IP centres. Use of a grant-in-aid loan, should it be successful in applying for one, lies with the board. Other major institutions have used those loans for commercial ventures and digital expansion.

My noble friend Lord Hannan questioned the ability of the Government and publicly funded bodies to deliver on time and to budget. I remind him that, since the delivery of the St Pancras site, the British Library has successfully delivered multiple high-profile capital projects—closing Colindale and building a new national newspaper building in Boston Spa and a new additional storage building—on time and to budget.

The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, raised the important issue of bringing books into the lives of children as quickly and as early as possible. I remind her of the exhibition “Marvellous and Mischievous: Literature’s Young Rebels”, and the hugely successful Harry Potter exhibitions. My noble friend Lord Moylan worried about sherry going to the head of the British Library board with this new power. As he will understand very well, there is a strong governance framework, which we hope will avoid any overindulgence in the sherry department.

The British Library’s ambitions are genuinely national in scale, and I join my noble friend Lord Vaizey in recognising the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and her leadership in this area. As we heard, last year’s Budget allocated £13 million to expand the libraries network of business and IP centres in public libraries to 20 regional and 90 local centres across England, reaching more entrepreneurs in more communities than ever before. Those centres providing business advice have recently responded very swiftly to need. The “Reset. Restart” programme, launched in October, is designed specifically to help businesses respond to and recover from the impacts of Covid-19. As the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, said, we welcome that combination of great cultural depth and expertise and entrepreneurial and business relevance, which the British Library demonstrates so ably.

As we recover from the economic effects of the pandemic, this flexibility and innovation will be even more important, particularly for all our cultural institutions as they attract visitors again. I do not have three Shakespeare quotes for my noble friend but I have one from Cicero:

“If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need.”


I am sure we can all agree with that. It is only fair that the British Library should have access to the same opportunities that its peers do to help it thrive in future. I welcome the House’s support for this Bill.

Office of Communications: Chair

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to appoint a new Chair of the Office of Communications.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the process to appoint a new permanent chair of Ofcom is currently under way. The process will be fair, open and robust. As with all public appointments, it will be conducted in line with the governance code and regulated by the Commissioner for Public Appointments. The preferred candidate will also appear in front of the DCMS Committee. The Government are committed to finding an outstanding individual, and we very much encourage all qualified candidates to come forward.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Given that one of the most important functions of Ofcom is to uphold the broadcasting impartiality regime which lies at the heart of our most trusted media, such as the BBC, does she agree that it would be unacceptable for the new chair to be someone with a long record of extreme political partisanship, and who, as a newspaper editor, presided over such headlines as “Enemies of the People” in relation to our trusted and independent judiciary, and “Crush the Saboteurs” in relation to those who voiced opposition to Brexit?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure that the noble Lord will understand that I am not going to speculate on any potential candidate for the role, but I absolutely agree that it is critical that Ofcom remain impartial, independent and an evidence-based regulator.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that just as important as the new chair of Ofcom are the new powers that Ofcom will have? The regulator will have significant extra responsibilities following online harms legislation and will have a vital role in working with the new digital markets unit to ensure that the platforms are subject to fair competition. Can she tell us what progress is being made on bringing forward the online harms legislation and, crucially, a Bill to give the digital markets unit the statutory powers it needs, particularly in the area of payment for content?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right that it will be extremely important in future for Ofcom to co-ordinate its activities with other digital regulators, including the new digital markets unit being set up in the CMA. We are working at pace to prepare the online harms legislation, which will be ready later this year. In December, the Government received advice from the CMA on design and implementation of the new regime. We are carefully considering this and will consult on it as soon as possible.

[Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (CB)]

My Lords, we all remember the foundation of Ofcom, when all it was about was spectrum allocations and channel licensing—and now it has the BBC as well. However, the biggest elephant in the communications room is the urgent need for social media regulation, given its regularised misinformation and distortion of reality. Will the new chair and the ever-expanding Ofcom take on this duty, and should media literacy better fit with Ofcom than Ofsted?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Ofcom is the Government’s preferred regulator for the new online harms regime and the new legislation, which will be introduced later this year. The Government will announce their media literacy strategy later this year.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a great deal of concern about the Government’s stated attitude to the BBC and, indeed, to public service broadcasting generally? Ofcom has been particularly successful to date. Does the Minister agree that it would be a tragedy for the high standards of British television broadcasting if we lost the traditions we have had and denigrated the standards to those of Fox?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are supportive of a modern system of public service broadcasting that remains relevant and continues to meet the needs of UK audiences in future. Obviously, Ofcom, with its regulatory role in this capacity, is a crucial part of delivering this.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, earlier this week the Government published their external review, which said that the BBC is the most trusted broadcaster in the world. Is it not about time they started showing that they believe that in their statements and policies?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have been very clear about the value of the BBC, particularly in the pandemic, during which it has served to educate, inspire, inform and act as a crucial and reliable source of news.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

Several noble Lords have already referred to Ofcom’s expanding remit and the additional responsibilities to be introduced through the online safety Bill and the challenges they will bring. What conversations has the Minister had through her department with Ofcom’s new chief executive about the body’s current and future resourcing? Can she assure us that the various changes envisaged in the forthcoming legislation will be accompanied by commensurate increases in staffing budgets, training opportunities and, vitally, political support?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a very important point. Work is already starting within Ofcom to recruit the appropriate skills and experience that will be needed to deliver on the online safety regime, including the recent recruitment of a head of emerging technologies from Google.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister give the House any valid reasons why the committee wants the power of veto over such appointments?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am afraid I do not follow my noble friend’s question, so, if I may, I will write to him.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

They will need an understanding not only of fast broadband connectivity issues in rural areas, which Covid homeworking has highlighted, and the pressing questions of online security and harm, but of the far-reaching changes in the television sector with the streaming of content by international providers such as Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google. Does the Minister accept that the appointment must be future-proof and not given as a reward for yesterday’s achievements?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The role profile for the chair of Ofcom was discussed, including with the DCMS Select Committee, and updated with exactly the intention the noble Lord suggests.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Does the Minister recall that the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, was appointed to an NHS position without any proper scrutiny? Her main qualification was being a member of the Jockey Club. The main qualification of the acting chair of Ofcom, Maggie Carver, is being chair of the Racecourse Association. Can we have an assurance that this appointment will be made in a proper fashion and that the person appointed will have knowledge of the communications industry and not of the racing fraternity?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

If the noble Lord looks at the role profile, he will see that it is extremely clear about the level of professionalism and experience required—although, it being Cheltenham week, I cannot exclude racing connections.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, moving away from Cheltenham, does the Minister agree that the only independent member of the board’s being closely associated with the Murdoch stable might make us a little nervous about the results of any appointment?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The process regarding the independent panel member to which the noble Lord refers has been carefully considered. The Commissioner for Public Appointments has approved them and they are recusing themselves from all areas of discussion where they have a conflict of interest.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, what expectations do Her Majesty’s Government have of a new chair of the Office of Communications in enhancing Ofcom’s role in preventing online abuse?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This will be a very important part of the new role, but I stress that the role of the chair is to lead the independent board. It is for the board, together with the chair, to deliver on that responsibility.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Music and Performing Arts Students: Visas and Work Permits

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 11th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as chairman of the Royal College of Music.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of international touring for UK cultural and creative practitioners. British music and performing arts students seeking to tour within the EU are now required to check domestic immigration and visitor rules for individual member states. The DCMS-led working group on creative and cultural touring, involving sector representatives and other key government departments, is working to assess the impacts and ensure that the sector gets the clarity and support it needs.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we are all aware of the damage to the creative economy from the new visa and work permit requirements for EU touring, with jobs lost and tours cancelled, but perhaps hardest hit are students in music and the performing arts. Does my noble friend acknowledge that students need to perform in Europe to progress their careers and enrich their education, but now cannot because the cost of work permits and the bureaucracy of multiple visa applications are prohibitive? It is essential we reach bilateral agreements on work permits with member states urgently if we are not to blight a generation of students, so can my noble friend tell the House what progress has been made on that front?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government absolutely agree with my noble friend about the importance of touring for students, both within the EU and more broadly around the world. He will be aware that our rules for touring creative professionals are more generous than those of many EU member states. The working group to which I referred met for the first time on 5 February to try to get clarity on the issues impacting creative professionals and how best to support them. I reassure my noble friend that we are working across government to address the important issues he raises.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con) [V]]

I strongly support my noble friend Lord Black. This could and should have been resolved by now, for it is self-evidently in the interests of all concerned that frictionless visa-free arrangements—[Connection lost.]

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend kindly shared his question with me ahead of time so, despite the technological glitches, I will endeavour to answer. First, we remain disappointed that the deal we proposed in this area, which met the needs of our extraordinary creative industries, was not agreed by the EU. We understand the concerns of the sector and we are working at pace to address them so that touring can resume as soon as it is safe.

[Baroness Prashar (CB) [V]]

My Lords, there are a number of testimonies from musicians who are already losing work in Europe because it is no longer financially viable to tour. EU promoters and venues are no longer hiring UK passport holders. While the proposal for a cultural export office is welcome as a long-term measure, what are the Government doing right now to unravel the huge bureaucratic and regulatory challenges facing touring musicians?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are talking to the sector about an export office, as the noble Baroness mentioned, but the real focus of the working group to which I referred is getting as much evidence as possible of the impact on the sector, some of which the noble Baroness referred to, providing clarity about the steps needed to tour more seamlessly and exploring with the sector the options to support our wonderful practitioners.

[Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister talked about the Government’s offer during the Brexit negotiations to incorporate the music industry into short-term business agreements, but this had precious little chance of success given the WTO most favoured nation rules. UK musicians now face not just inconvenience but an impossible and overwhelming array of obstacles. Have the Government ruled out what the vast majority of people in the music industry consider the only sustainable solution—a visa waiver agreement covering our world-leading musical and creative sector?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, the issue is more complex than simply visas; work permits also play an important part. As I mentioned, our original offer worked for our creative professionals and we will continue to try to streamline their ability to tour.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, post-Brexit mobility regulations are a problem not just for students but for those who teach them, many of whom come from the EU. What is being done to make teaching in the UK cost effective for them, and less of an administrative and financial burden for British institutions? Without access to such culturally diverse teachers and training, our future talent pipeline will be seriously disadvantaged.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a very specific question. As I mentioned, our rules around visiting this country for creative professionals, which would include teachers, are more generous than in the vast majority of EU member states. If there is further to add on that, I will write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, before this year, music and performing arts students participated in study or cultural exchanges under Erasmus. This allowed them to develop the skills and build the networks that bring success in the creative industries sector. Published details of the Government’s Turing replacement scheme suggest no tuition fee support and significantly lower cost of living grants. Does the Minister believe that this meets the test of rewarding raw talent rather than financial background, and will she agree to talk to her DfE counterparts and discuss the double whammy these proposals represent as a barrier to UK cultural engagement in Europe?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am more than happy to talk to my DfE counterparts. I do not think we accept the suggestion that the noble Lord makes. The Turing scheme is going to be open to about 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to allow them to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting this September. He is right that we will also seek to support students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am sure he agrees with me that that is also an important priority.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords,

“I learned by touring Europe in the 60s. Young artists need the same chance”.

Those are the words of Elton John. Would my noble friend agree that the Rocket Man is right? We need a long-term, sustainable solution, but we also need a short-term fix. Would the Minister agree that the department could put in place such a short-term fix, particularly when it comes to legals and logistics, to help all musicians? Otherwise, it will just be a guttering candle in the wind.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thought for a second that my noble friend had a previous musical touring career he had not told us about. We are working closely with those in the sector on exactly the sort of practical issues my noble friend refers to in terms of legals and logistics, to make sure that everything works for them once they can start touring again safely.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned work permits, but work permits and visas are two very different things. As the noble Lord, Lord Wood, said, the performing arts are as one in asking for a bespoke visa waiver agreement as a matter of urgency—this can be an agreement that does not cross the Government’s red lines on free movement. As such, will the Government and department have discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Frost, about this, and does the Minister know what plans there might be to talk to Maroš Šefčovič on this matter in the future?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot speculate about the future, but I can reassure the noble Lord that we work closely with both the FCDO and the Cabinet Office on these issues.

[Baroness Quin (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, is it not clear that the Government’s EU deal has severely penalised one of the most successful parts of our economy, putting it at a huge competitive disadvantage? On 20 January, my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara asked about publishing

“all correspondence between the EU and UK on this issue”.—[Official Report, 20/1/21; col. 1166.]

Has this correspondence now been published in the House of Lords Library? If not, is it intended that it will be?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In relation to the publication of that documentation, my understanding is that it was legal text that was shared in confidence and that there are no current plans to publish it further.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Data Protection Act 2018: Children

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 4th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kidron]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to their call for views and evidence for the Review of Representative Action Provisions, Section 189 Data Protection Act 2018, published on 27 August 2020, what plans they have to reflect the views of the children consulted as part of the Review in changes to the Data Protection Act 2018.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran)]

My Lords, DCMS officials consulted children directly as part of the call for views. Children who responded pointed to a lack of awareness about how to complain to the ICO or take action against a data controller when things go wrong. That is why we have committed to work with the ICO and other interested parties to raise awareness about the redress mechanisms available to all data subjects, including children. Our focus is on improving the operation of current law, rather than making legislative changes.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for her response. However, the other thing that children said in the Government’s own review was that 96% of them thought that charities should be able to represent them—and that they had a “lack of support” and

“had not heard of the ICO.”

As the noble Baroness said, they also lacked awareness of how companies such as advertisers might use their personal data—so they may not even know that they have a problem. As such, I challenge the noble Baroness to say that only a handful people can successfully understand and challenge data protection law.

The other thing is that the Government’s reasoning was that children now benefit from the protections of the age-appropriate design code, so I ask the noble Baroness, as Minister for Youth Policy and DCMS: how do the Government reconcile wilfully ignoring the views of children—in favour of the business interests of the tech sector—with their duties under Article 12 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which is that views must be heard in “matters affecting the child”? Are we to understand from this that—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

It is very important that those people asking supplementary questions keep them to a sensible time—otherwise, it simply knocks out other speakers lower down the list.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reject the noble Baroness’s suggestion that the Government are blocking off meaningful means of redress. Our current data protection laws already offer strong protections to people, including children and other vulnerable groups, and we will continue to assist them in exercising their rights. Through the review, we sought, and have listened to, the views of children and their parents, and we are working with the Information Commissioner’s Office to raise awareness of the redress mechanisms available to them. Finally, civil society groups can still make complaints on behalf of children, as the noble Baroness suggests.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is very hard to square the two strands that the Minister is dwelling on: that children were in favour of more legislation to help them challenge the issues concerned with their data, but also that there was not a strong enough case for introducing legislation. Given that the consequence of that decision, as has been said, is more children suffering from identity theft, online grooming, data profiling and microtargeting, can the Minister help us by explaining what would have been a strong enough case?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Lord is aware, we considered the views of children and business, but the real issue here is less what would be a strong enough case and more whether the existing law is adequate—which we believe it is—and whether it needs to be implemented in a way that allows all data subjects to seek redress more easily, which it does; that is what we are working on.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that there is a pressing need for much greater levels of awareness and understanding? Furthermore, does would she agree that it is crucial that we enable our young people, and indeed all people, to be financially, digitally and—crucially—data literate and aware?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right, and that is why we focused, and will publish later this year, our media literacy strategy. This was absolutely underlined by the responses from parents.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of just how time-consuming it is for a young person to go through a complaint under the ICO rules, which is something I personally have done and have helped children with? Does she not consider it worth making it very clear to children that the civil society organisations representing them can do the bulk of the work, without constantly having to refer back to the child?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes a fair point about the complexity in this area, but the ICO has been very clear that it will investigate companies that do not comply with the GDPR concerns reported to it—and that it will accept referrals and complaints from civil society organisations, which can play an important role.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, as a family judge, I regularly talked to children, some of them very young, about what they wanted to happen to them at the end of the proceedings. May I urge the Minister really and seriously to listen to children—because they very often have something extremely valuable to say?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I entirely concur with the noble and learned Baroness.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, when I read the government response to the call for evidence, it struck me that it is as important, if not more so, to take account of and reflect on adequate protections and to ensure that they are in place for young people, who evidently have a distinct lack of knowledge and awareness about, for example, how an advertiser might use their personal data. If the noble Baroness agrees with me on that point, what thought have she and her department given to delivering that extra protection by non-legislative means? If she has any examples to share, I am sure the House would welcome them.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point, particularly in relation to adtech. As he will be aware, the ICO has recently reopened its investigation into it, which it had to pause last year because of Covid-19 constraints. If it is to be effective, our media literacy strategy needs to cover all these points, including giving children and their parents an understanding of how their data is used.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, among millions of disadvantaged parents and children, awareness of data protection and online harms in general is very fragmented. Could the Minister assure the House that the children consulted came from all sorts of backgrounds to give a broader picture? Does she agree that we cannot leave it to parents and teachers to manage the complexity of data protection—particularly in the context of online harms and safeguarding children from grooming and sexual exploitation—without government leadership with structural safety legislation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that it is important that we always talk to a wide range of children, which we always seek to do. She is also right that the responsibility to sort this out should not fall to the child or parents; really, we need this to be addressed much earlier on, which is one of the reasons that, in addition to the age-appropriate design code, the Government are developing a one-stop shop to give companies practical guidance about keeping children safer online.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister comment on what steps the Government will take to stop organisations’ growing use of “legitimate interest” to get around cookie refusals? What will HMG now do to help improve knowledge of data protection rights and the Information Commissioner’s Office among young people? It is clear from this review that they are, in the main, not aware of what is done with their personal data or that they can complain to the ICO.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right; as other noble Lords have noted, this is a challenging area for young people in relation to making complaints. She asked specifically about “legitimate interest”, and I will write to her on that.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

[Inaudible]—2021, seek children’s views. They were rejected because they were asking whether children’s voluntary sector organisations should represent them in presenting those views. I understand that this was rejected because there was a lack of evidence; could the Minister explain this?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I apologise; I did not hear the first part of the noble Baroness’s question because it was cut off, so I will respond in writing.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked, and we now move on to the third Oral Question.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Lords Hansard
Thursday 4th March 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1A and 1B in lieu.

1A: The Schedule, page 8, line 4, at end insert—
“1A In section 134 (restrictions in leases and licences), in subsection (8), for the definition of “lease” substitute—
““lease”—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, includes—
(i) any head lease, sub-lease or underlease,
(ii) any tenancy (including a sub-tenancy), and
(iii) any agreement to grant any such lease or tenancy;
(b) in relation to Scotland, includes any sub-lease and any agreement to grant a sub-lease,
And “lessor” and “lessee” are to be construed accordingly;”.”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 3 to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 3A.

3A: Because the Commons do not consider it necessary for the Secretary of State to be required to carry out a review as set out in Lords Amendment No. 3.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I am moving Motions A and B en bloc. When the Bill was introduced in early 2020, we could not have predicted the situation that we find ourselves in now. Over the past year, our telecoms network has allowed businesses to continue to operate, children to continue to learn and those in isolation to continue to see and speak to families and friends. As the Minister for Digital Infrastructure has done in the other place, I give wholehearted thanks to the UK’s digital infrastructure providers, internet service providers and mobile network operators. They have stepped up and worked with us to bridge the gaps in provision, be that through whitelisting educational websites, providing free data and devices to struggling families or coming together to deliver connectivity to the Nightingale hospitals and vaccination sites. As with any industry, there is a tendency to pay attention only when something goes wrong and to ignore the huge amount of effort and hard work it takes to keep things working normally. The industry’s efforts during this extraordinary time cannot and must not be forgotten.

However, the coronavirus pandemic has put into sharp relief the divide between the digital haves and the digital have-nots. This Government’s ambition is to support the delivery of fast, reliable, resilient broadband to every home and business in this country. Noble Lords will be aware—not least from our discussions during the passage of the Bill—of the myriad, complex barriers that face infrastructure deployment. There is no panacea, but the Bill provides a modest yet vital development. Despite having once been described by the Guardian as “an obscure technical bill”, it has within its initial scope some 10 million people in the UK who live in flats and apartments. It also contains the flexibility to bring still more people into its scope in the future, such as those in office blocks and business parks, where the evidence points to it.

We expect these provisions, once commenced, to make a real difference to rollout, along with other measures we are taking forward such as mandating gigabit connectivity to new-build developments and reforms to the street-works regime so that it better supports deployment.

I trust that your Lordships will have seen that a consultation on further potential changes to the Electronic Communications Code has now been published. We will carefully consider whether further legislative changes beyond those made in the Digital Economy Act 2017 are necessary as a result of what we learn from that consultation. These are all steps that, combined, will help operators achieve their, and this Government’s, ambitious connectivity targets. Crucially, these measures will take into account the interests of those needing greater connectivity, balancing those interests alongside those of landowners. Just as with the Bill, that balance is crucial to ensure that we continue to bridge that digital divide.

The Motion asks that this House does not insist on its Amendment 1 and does agree with the Commons in its Amendments 1A and 1B in lieu. As noble Lords will recall, Amendment 1 was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, following similar amendments by the Opposition Front Bench, here and in the other place. Its purpose is to clarify that people who rent their flat can make use of the policy in the Bill. While we maintain that the Bill has always provided for that, the strength of feeling on the matter is undeniable. To make it clear that the Bill serves the interests of tenants as well as leaseholders, the Government have tabled two amendments in the spirit of that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. The amendments clarify the definition of “lease” in the Electronic Communications Code, to ensure that it includes, for example, any tenancy. I hope that your Lordships will support these amendments.

I hope that the House will not insist on Lords Amendment 3, to which the Commons has disagreed for Reason 3A. That amendment, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, adds a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to commission a review of the impact of the Bill on the Electronic Communications Code. The proposed new clause requires the commissioned review to include an assessment of whether the code is sufficient to support the delivery of one gigabit per second broadband to every premise in the country by 2025. The amendment also requires that further, separate assessments be made of whether the code should be amended to

“introduce rights of access to telecommunications operators akin to those available to suppliers of electricity, gas, and water”.

The amendment also provides for an assessment as to whether the code should be amended to provide additional development rights and encourage collaboration alongside other works being carried out in the locality.

I recognise and appreciate the intention with which this amendment was tabled. It is important that the Government are held to account over their rollout targets, and it is frustrating that many parts of the country still do not have access to the digital services they need. However, we continue to believe that the amendment is unnecessary and seeks to introduce provisions which fall outside the purpose of the Bill and, indeed, the code itself. As I have said, there are already mechanisms in place by which the department’s rollout targets are measured and scrutinised.

Ofcom, the independent regulator, publishes its annual Connected Nations report, which it updates a further two times a year. This provides a clear assessment of the progress that this country is making in providing connectivity, both fixed and mobile. These reports provide detailed analysis of the connectivity available in the UK as a whole, in each of the nations and in urban and rural areas. They show the progress that is being made in the deployment of gigabit-capable networks and 4G and 5G coverage. They show progress in relation to connections to superfast services, as well as the areas in this country which are not yet served—for example, those premises unable to access a broadband speed that meets the minimum under the universal service obligation. Should the Ofcom reports raise questions, the Government continue to provide answers and clarity on any aspects of their work in this area, both in this House and in the other place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their helpful contributions to the debate and I will respond to some of the questions that have been raised. I start by sharing the aspiration of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that future Bills should move more smoothly. I shall try not to take too much personal responsibility for the pace of this Bill, but I know he will accept that the breadth of Bills can slow them down. There is a tension between wishing that there could have been more in this legislation and the speed of its progress.

Along with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, raised questions about our diversification strategy and its progress, particularly in relation to open RAN. I want to reassure all noble Lords that we have made early progress in our work to accelerate the development of open interface solutions by committing to work with NEC to launch the NeutrORAN test bed as part of the wider 5G test beds and trials programme that will showcase 5G open RAN technology. As noble Lords are aware, our strategy in this area is backed by an initial investment of £250 million to kick off this work. We are trying to take a balanced approach to this diversification, which will see measures introduced across three separate strands of activity; that is, by supporting incumbent suppliers such as Ericsson and Nokia, as well as attracting new suppliers into the UK market and, as I said, accelerating open interface solutions and deployment.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked why we are nervous about a review. I do not think we are nervous and I hope I have made it clear that we do not think that that kind of review is necessary given the level of scrutiny already given by Ofcom and Select Committees across both Houses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, asked about the vital issue of network security. As she will know, the Telecommunications (Security) Bill being debated in the other place introduces a stronger security framework for all UK public telecom providers. It will ensure that providers design and manage their networks in a secure way. In response to her point about future-proofing the legislation, the Bill will introduce a new national security power to manage the risks posed by high-risk vendors in our telecom networks both now and into the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked about the universal service obligation. We will keep the speed and quality parameters of the USO under review to make sure that it keeps pace with consumers’ evolving needs.

I must offer an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, if I was critical of any of his drafting skills, which will certainly be vastly superior to anything I could manage. I am genuine in saying that the Government are very grateful to him for raising important issues, including how we should tackle the matters that cut across different government departments and their different legislative responsibilities, which are so crucial.

The noble Lord also challenged the Government’s ambition in this area. As he will know, by 2025, the Government are targeting a minimum of 85% of gigabit-capable coverage, but we will seek to accelerate rollout further to get as close to 100% as possible. That target is based on extensive engagement with the industry over the past year as well as the current industry rates of deployment and how those may be increased. We have also made a major investment of £5 billion in the UK gigabit programme, which has galvanised commercial build in the market.

In closing, I was reminded while listening to noble Lords of my low point on this Bill. It was when my own internet connection failed while we were all working remotely. I think it happened during the Committee stage and I was unable to use my video camera, so I have had a personal interest in this. I close by thanking again the Bill team, who have been enormously knowledgeable, professional and helpful in supporting me and, I know, a number of noble Lords through the passage of the Bill. I thank all noble Lords for their scrutiny, their challenge and the quality of the debate and I commend the Motions to the House.

Motions A and B agreed.

Video-sharing Platforms: BBFC Ratings

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 4th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to mandate the use of British Board of Film Classifications ratings for user-generated content on video sharing platforms.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the British Board of Film Classification’s age ratings are currently used by a number of video-on-demand providers. Although adoption is voluntary, we welcome their use. The video-sharing platform regime, for which Ofcom is the regulator, came into force on 1 November 2020. UK-established video-sharing platforms must now take appropriate measures to protect the public, including minors, from illegal and harmful material. Video-sharing platforms may adopt age ratings as an appropriate measure; however, they are not obliged to do so.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply, but there is a wider issue with BBFC certification. The recently launched Disney streaming service ran a documentary originally certificated by the BBFC as suitable for those aged 18 and over. Disney chose to self-certificate it as suitable for 12 and over. Believe me, some scenes in that documentary were truly horrific. To protect children, will the Government, as a matter of urgency, bang heads together and get every streaming service to sign up to the BBFC system, which is tried and trusted?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend’s last remark about this system being trusted. The Government have great trust in the BBFC’s best-practice age ratings. On his suggestion that we bang heads together, we aim to approach things more gently, but we are actively engaging with the industry to encourage other platforms to adopt the BBFC’s ratings across all their content, and will keep the evidence for legislation in this area under review.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare a past interest as a member of the first British video classification council, chaired by Lord Harewood. It was difficult then, so I ask the Minister how parents can be expected to manage their children’s screen time today, when there is such a lack of regulation and a slow government response.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes a valid point, and I know that parents have had extraordinary challenges in this area, particularly over the last year. She is aware that we are developing a media literacy strategy and that, last year, we published guidance on online safety for children. We should also remember that our broadcasters have educated, entertained and informed our children in the last year.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

The Government’s response to the online harms White Paper says that:

“The regulator will be required to have regard to the fact that children have different needs at different ages when preparing codes of practice relevant to the protection of children.”


What powers will Ofcom have to provide sufficient oversight and ensure enforcement of these additional protections? Will they be set out in the online safety Bill?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I assure the noble Viscount that they will be set out in the legislation. Ofcom will have wide-ranging powers to tackle both illegal and harmful content. I am happy to write to him with more detail.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

In December, the Minister spoke of the voluntary nature of the BBFC scheme, which she reminded us of earlier for video-on-demand services. One of the strengths of the BBFC’s ratings is that they are well understood by parents and children alike. The same cannot be said for the inconsistent approaches adopted by platforms offering user-generated content. How do the Government plan to balance the undeniable need for change, to which noble Lords have referred, with their wish to minimise regulation, which is clearly not working at the moment?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the adoption of BBFC ratings, particularly by Netflix, is a relatively recent development, so we have not yet made an assessment of its impact on both accessibility of content and other streaming services. As I said to my noble friend Lord Grade, we are keeping this under review.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, YouGov research confirms that 82% of parents and 73% of children want BBFC age ratings displayed on user-generated content on these video-sharing platforms. Given new duties under the revised audio-visual media services directive to protect children, and with the promised duty of care, is not actual regulation from the Government needed to make sure that these platforms work with the trusted ratings from the BBFC to better protect children? Are not the Government running against the tide?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We do not believe that we are running against the tide. The online harms legislation, which we have discussed extensively in this House and which I know we will debate in great detail in future, will make us a world leader in this regard.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

My Lords, sensibly regulating the wild west of user-generated content on the internet is essential, but potentially a whack-a-mole exercise, given the risk that it simply displaces activity elsewhere. How will the DCMS work with Ofcom to ensure that its implementation of the video-sharing platform regime develops understanding of how to regulate online services, in advance of the online safety Bill coming into force?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point. By the implementation of the video-sharing platform regime, as he suggests, Ofcom will build its experience in regulating harmful content while balancing freedom of expression. I understand that Ofcom is already preparing for its new responsibilities in relation to online harms by bringing in new technology and people with the right skills.

[Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that for 10 years I was a vice-president of the BBFC. While the adoption of the BBFC’s age ratings is currently voluntary, does the Minister welcome the fact that Netflix announced on 1 December last year that it had become the first platform to achieve complete coverage of its content under the BBFC’s ratings, and that a number of other video-on-demand platforms use BBFC ratings for some of their content, including Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV+, Curzon Home Cinema and BFI Player? Will she continue to engage with the industry to encourage other platforms to adopt the BBFC’s ratings across all their content?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Absolutely. The Government welcome Netflix’s decision and, as I mentioned earlier, we continue to work with a number of the providers in this area.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

I refer the House to my interests on the register. Age rating is just one of the many tools needed to build the digital world that children deserve, but it is hugely important to children and families that are looking to curate an age-appropriate experience. Is the Minister aware that Apple and Google app stores routinely advertise apps and games as suitable for four-plus and nine-plus for services whose own terms and conditions state that they are only for 16-plus or adult use? This means that a child or parent will download an app on the false understanding that it is age appropriate. Does she agree that there is little point age-rating individual pieces of content if the largest companies in the world continue to mislabel products and services on an industrial scale?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would be happy to discuss the matter that the noble Baroness raises with the relevant platforms and the Video Standards Council. We encourage online store fronts to follow the BBFC best practice for labelling online apps, which includes signing up to the international age rating coalition system.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Esports. Does the Minister agree that in protecting children’s rights, the views of gamers, children and teachers should be taken into account when considering a combination of age labelling, filters and parental controls, and that tools such as URI which provide age ratings for UGC available via online video-sharing platform services are exceptionally helpful in this context?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right that the views of children, gamers and teachers are important. Under the video-sharing platform regime, UK-established platforms will be required to take appropriate measures to protect all their users from illegal content and minors from harmful content. Those measures could include a combination of age labelling, filters, parental controls and technical tools.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.