178 Earl Howe debates involving the Ministry of Defence

NATO: Member State Spending

Earl Howe Excerpts
Wednesday 1st February 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, on his Question and on highlighting the importance to the alliance of all member states meeting the NATO target to spend at least 2% of their GDP on defence. I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke this evening.

The alliance remains the world’s most powerful defensive organisation. For 68 years it has kept the UK and our allies safe. Today, it plays a critical role in deterring Russian aggression, strengthening Iraqi institutions, training local troops to stop Daesh and helping Afghanistan rebuild its security structure, to name but the most important of its current tasks. However, as a number of noble Lords today stressed, in today’s world of growing dangers, NATO is becoming more important than ever. It is worth mentioning what the new US Defense Secretary, James Mattis, said at his confirmation hearing:

“If we did not have NATO today, we would have to create it”.


The trouble is that in recent decades we have seen a marked decline in defence spending. Today, the UK remains one of only five nations to meet the 2% target. The best estimate for 2016 is in fact 2.21%, as my noble friend Lord Jopling pointed out. I also take the opportunity to remind noble Lords that the budget will increase by 0.5% in real terms each year of the Parliament. However, five countries in the alliance invest less than 1%. That approach is no longer sustainable. In the face of multiple and diverse threats, NATO must become adaptable by design: that is, transparent, flexible and able to take tough decisions swiftly. In turn, that requires us to spend more, more consistently and more efficiently. That is why from the Wales summit in 2014 through to the Warsaw summit in 2016 and beyond, the UK, alongside our US counterparts, has led efforts to encourage nations to put their money where their mouths are.

So, on the noble Lord’s Question, what progress have we made? Here I depart slightly from my noble friend Lord Attlee, with great respect to him, because the answer is quite a significant amount. Thanks to the defence investment pledge signed by NATO nations in Cardiff, we not only halted NATO’s decline in defence spending but reversed it. In addition to the five allies who meet the alliance target, a further 20 increased their defence spending and seven others plan to reach the 2% target by 2024. At the same time, we should not forget that overall spending is not the only metric we use to measure NATO progress. Three other factors are worth mentioning.

First, we have also seen 10 nations increase the proportion of their investment dedicated to new capability. The noble Lord, Lord Clark, was absolutely right to highlight how critical that is. At a time when our adversaries are making exponential advances in fifth-generation airframe technology and advanced communications, NATO must dedicate itself to developing vital disruptive capabilities, from cyber to space, and from autonomy to big data, to avoid obsolescence and keep ahead of the curve.

Secondly, NATO is becoming far more agile in being able to deploy its forces when the call comes, whether that is Daesh terror in the south or Russian aggression in the east. Since the Wales summit, NATO set up a very high readiness joint task force, the VJTF, to respond in short order to a full range of security challenges from crisis management to collective defence. We have also seen NATO planes policing Baltic and Black Sea skies and we established an enhanced forward presence in eastern Europe. That is currently in train. I am proud that the UK takes a leading role in all these areas. We are leading on the VJTF, we are sending our Typhoons to safeguard Romanian and Polish airspace, and we are deploying around 800 troops to Estonia, alongside around 200 troops from France and Denmark. We are also deploying a reconnaissance squadron to Poland of approximately 150 personnel, who will come under US command.

Thirdly, we are seeing the alliance become more interoperable. One of the NATO alliance’s greatest achievements has been enabling multiple nations to communicate, plan and operate together. Yet there remains work to be done, especially when aligning the defence aspirations of the European Union and NATO. Rather than be distracted by the prospect of European armies or joint HQs, we encouraged our EU colleagues to build on progress already made on tackling migration, applying sanctions to Russia and strategic communications. The joint declaration at Warsaw was about making these two organisations complementary not contradictory, working together on countering hybrid threats, enhancing resilience, building defence capacity, cyber defence, maritime security, and exercises. Clearly, that declaration was a welcome step in the right direction.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, focused on the budget and in particular the 2%. He expressed his concern about creative accounting and, I was sorry to hear, accused the Government of shamelessly massaging the figures. I gently point out to him that the House of Commons Defence Committee disagreed with that view. It said that there had been no creative accounting. Indeed, the prime reason it said so is that NATO determines the definitions for categorising defence spending, not the Government. As with other NATO allies, the UK updates its approach to ensure that it categorises defence spending fully in accordance with NATO guidelines by capturing all spending contributing to the defence of the United Kingdom.

I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, on the necessity of comparing like with like. All NATO members are assessed using the same guidelines so it is right that we should complete our return along NATO’s metrics or we could not be compared accurately with our allies. Incidentally, only one NATO ally does not include pensions: Bulgaria.

Lord Soley Portrait Lord Soley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Do the other NATO countries include things such as pensions to civilians as well as to military persons, and UN peacekeeping operations? Is that the Minister’s understanding?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

That is indeed my understanding. We are clear that NATO wishes to quality-assure the figures that it receives so that it can compare like with like. We believe that the figures are broadly comparable as between the member states of NATO.

On another level, comparing like with like is a bit of a flawed approach. As I pointed out in the recent debate of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, the nature of defence spending inevitably changes over time. In the past, for example, we reported significantly more operational spend, such as when we were involved heavily in operations in Afghanistan. Clearly, that type of spending has diminished considerably. At the same time, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, questioned—he will forgive me if I got this wrong—the legitimacy of including new categories of spend in the analysis. Of course, he will recognise that new threats require new spending. We have not, historically, included any spend on cyber but we do now and it is right that we should. From time to time, like all NATO allies, we must ensure that we are capturing all appropriate spend.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, questioned whether the Army had the ability to wage war. It is important to say that the Army, in line with the strategic defence and security review of 2015, is ready and capable of deploying a potent, large scale, war-fighting force at divisional level providing there is sufficient notice.

The SDSR of 2015 took us a step forward because, along with a commitment to spend £178 billion on equipment and to increase the budget year by year, as I mentioned, it mandated a modernised war-fighting Army division that will be larger and able to use cutting- edge technology to harness all elements of Joint Force 2025. Altogether, it will be a significantly more potent force and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, would not disagree with that vision.

In a darker, more dangerous world, NATO is more important than ever. Let me reassure the House that the UK has no intention of easing up in our drive to adapt the alliance. In our strategic defence and security review of 2015, this Government spelled out our plan to strengthen our involvement, and since the referendum vote we have seen our commitment to the alliance intensify. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, said that we should not allow ourselves to lapse into complacency. I entirely agree with that, but if the progress we have made in recent years is no excuse for complacency, it is considerable cause for encouragement. It shows that the will is there.

Even those sceptical of the new US Administration’s plans should have been reassured, I hope, by our Prime Minister who, during her recent press conference with President Trump in Washington, reiterated that the US was “100% behind NATO”. The Government have no doubt about that commitment. While we can reflect on what the President said during his campaign—remarks such as “NATO is obsolete”—surely what matters is what is being said and done now, which is a lot of joint work. We are working with all NATO allies, including the United States, to make sure that NATO is capable of dealing with the risks posed to us. We are encouraging all allies to meet those investment targets. In fact, we believe that President Trump’s election presents a unique opportunity to forge ahead with NATO reform. The allies now have a chance to invest in this vital organisation to make it more interoperable and expand its international role, showing that it makes a difference not simply to European but to global security.

For almost seven decades, NATO has been the bastion and the bulwark of our defence. By continuing to press our partners to modernise and adapt the alliance, in the face of the 21st century’s mounting demands, we will ensure that it continues to be the cornerstone of our defence for many years to come.

House adjourned at 8.12 pm.

NATO: Eastern Flank

Earl Howe Excerpts
Monday 30th January 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what contribution the United Kingdom is making to the defence of NATO’s Eastern flank.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the United Kingdom plays a significant role in the defence of NATO’s eastern flank, leading NATO’s enhanced forward presence in Estonia, deploying a reconnaissance squadron to the US battalion in Poland and leading NATO’s very high readiness joint task force with up to 3,000 UK troops. Typhoon aircraft based in Romania will conduct southern air policing this summer, and we will deploy a Royal Navy ship to NATO’s standing naval mine countermeasures group in the Baltic.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, one should never take historical analogies too far. However, we have an America that is increasingly protectionist and isolationist; we have an international system in the United Nations which is becoming less and less effective; in Britain we have reduced our defence spending hugely since the Cold War a quarter of a century ago; and we have a large number of troops on the borders of eastern Europe. It sounds depressingly familiar to historians. I commend Her Majesty’s Government for the position they have taken in sending a battle group to Estonia. The Prime Minister said,

“we should engage with Russia from a position of strength”.

Does my noble friend agree that that means we should review again defence spending in this relatively new Administration and that we should increase defence spending to take account of new circumstances?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the first duty of any Government is the safety and security of the British people at home and abroad. That is why we have committed to spending at least 2% of our GDP on defence every year of this decade. Not only that, in addition the MoD budget will rise by 0.5% a year in real terms to 2020-21 and we have access to up an additional £1.5 billion a year by 2020-21 through the new joint security fund. This is an appropriate response to the complex and challenging international and domestic security threats that we face.

Lord Boyce Portrait Lord Boyce (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister agree that part of the NATO eastern flank includes maritime and the eastern Mediterranean? Will he say whether we are contributing our Royal Navy to NATO in that area, and if not whether we would have the capacity to do so if we were so asked?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The noble and gallant Lord will know that there is a NATO operation currently in train in the Aegean in which the UK is playing a leading role. As to a wider involvement in the eastern Mediterranean, I will write to him if I can find out any more plans which can be disclosed. What I can say is that we are conscious of the need to defend NATO’s southern border as well as its eastern borders, and that is why we are deploying RAF aircraft for southern air policing later this year.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is quite clear that we are not spending enough on defence, but that is not my question. I am delighted that we are showing support for our eastern allies in NATO, but I am wary of military involvement within Ukraine. Does the noble Earl agree that we must keep open at all levels every line of communication we can with the Putin Administration so that any incident does not actually become something far more serious? We are dealing with someone where things could become very nasty indeed.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The noble Lord makes an extremely good series of points. NATO’s renewed focus on deterrence and defence is, we believe, a proportionate response by NATO allies to the changed security environment in eastern Europe as demonstrated by Russia’s aggressive actions in Ukraine. However, that does not change our approach to bilateral relations with Russia. Despite the challenges I have referred to, we will continue to engage where necessary in areas of shared interest, and engage in dialogue as well through the channels we have available to us, such as the NATO-Russia Council.

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Portrait Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the deployment announced by the noble Earl in the eastern area of Europe is obviously to be welcomed, but is he aware of the RAND Corporation report of 2016 which sets out graphically the vulnerability of the Baltic states in the face of any Russian threat? Is not their best guarantee the fulfilment by all members of the NATO alliance of the obligation under Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty—including, if I may say so, the United States, which after all was the beneficiary of that article after the events of 9/11?

--- Later in debate ---
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The noble Lord is quite right. Article 5 is one of the key components of the NATO treaty and all allies are cognisant of what that means should any member of the alliance be subject to an armed incursion or attack.

Lord Touhig Portrait Lord Touhig (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I endorse entirely the point made by my noble friend Lord West that we should keep a dialogue with the Russian Government open, and the NATO-Russia Council is perhaps a vehicle for doing that. The deployment of British forces in Estonia and Poland is purely defensive, but can the Minister assure us that this will be kept under review, and should it be the case, we would have the capacity to increase the number of troops we have placed there? Does he further agree that no one at all in this country or abroad should be in any doubt that if NATO invoked Article 5, we will respond if any of our allies in the Baltic are threatened?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The enhanced forward presence is undoubtedly a major step forward in NATO’s deterrence posture. These are forces that will reassure our allies. They will defend Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, another NATO territory, and we believe that they will deter Russian belligerence on an enduring basis. The forces are designed to be defensive but combat-capable in order to show the Russians that should they be rash enough to contemplate any incursion into the Baltic states, that will be met with an appropriate response from NATO.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Trefgarne Portrait Lord Trefgarne
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, will it be possible to persuade the eastern flank nations which have the benefit of all the arrangements my noble friend has described to contribute 2% of their GDP to the cost of all these arrangements?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, it is encouraging that the defence investment pledge taken in Cardiff at the NATO summit in 2014 has raised the profile of investment within NATO. It has galvanised the allies’ defence spending. When leaders made the pledge in 2014, only three allies met the 2% of GDP guideline. Since then, two more have increased their budgets and five allies now meet the guideline. There is further progress still to come.

Viscount Hanworth Portrait Viscount Hanworth
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister tell us how many of our Typhoon aeroplanes are deployed in the east and how many are operational at any one time?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

If the noble Viscount is talking about southern air policing, where we will station aircraft in Romania, four aircraft will be deployed to carry out that policing alongside the Romanians. The total deployment size is yet to be confirmed, but it is likely to be in the region of 140 personnel. I will write to the noble Viscount if I have any further details.

UK Exports

Earl Howe Excerpts
Tuesday 24th January 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, there is time enough for two more questions. We can go first to my noble friend and then to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.

Lord De Mauley Portrait Lord De Mauley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, services are particularly important to the United Kingdom’s economy, but they by no means always play a prominent part in trade agreements. Can my noble friend assure me that the Government will make it a priority that our services will receive prominence in all trade negotiations?

Trident Missile Test

Earl Howe Excerpts
Monday 23rd January 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement, the Answer to an Urgent Question given in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence on the test firing of a Trident missile.

“On 20 June, the Royal Navy conducted a demonstration and shakedown operation, designed to certify HMS “Vengeance” and her crew prior to their return to operations. This included a routine unarmed Trident missile test launch. Contrary to reports in the weekend press, HMS “Vengeance” and her crew were successfully tested and certified as ready to rejoin the operational cycle. We do not comment on the details of submarine operations, but I can assure the House that, during any test firing, the safety of the crew and public is paramount and is never compromised.

Prior to conducting a Trident test fire, the UK strictly adheres to all relevant treaty obligations, notifying relevant nations and interested parties. On this occasion, the chairman of the Defence Select Committee, the opposition defence spokesperson, and the chair of the Public Accounts Committee were informed in advance.

I can assure the House that the capability and effectiveness of the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent is not in doubt. The Government have absolute confidence in our deterrent and the Royal Navy crews that protect us and our NATO allies every hour of every day”.

That concludes the Statement.

Lord Touhig Portrait Lord Touhig (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, immediately on crossing the threshold of No. 10 on 13 July, the Prime Minister wrote four identical letters to the commanders of our Vanguard fleet, instructing them what to do in the event of the Government ceasing to function and this country being subject to a nuclear attack. That is the measure of how important we think our nuclear deterrent is.

With reports that a test missile launched in June failed, the Prime Minister was asked four times on live television yesterday when she knew about this and she would not answer. This morning, No. 10 confirmed that she was told about the test when she took office. Frankly, if the Prime Minister cannot face up and answer an honest question about the very basis of our nuclear deterrent, we must ask whether she is up to holding that high office in the first place. At the end of the day, it all comes down to character.

Today’s Statement says:

“We do not comment on the details of submarine operations”.


That is strange because I have an MoD press release, dated June 2013, in which we are told that HMS “Vigilant” was awarded a trophy for successfully completing a similar test to the one we are talking about today. More than that, the press release also tells us that the crew prepared for the test for six months. It gives the date of the test and tells us where it took place. It tells us that it was the 10th test in a row and how long our nuclear deterrent is at sea. Also, in the last hour or so, a spokesman for the White House has confirmed that the missile was successfully diverted and destroyed off the coast of Florida.

The Government’s policy of no comment on these matters because of national security is in chaos—it is a shambles—and deserves to be thought through all over again. It is nonsense. Previous tests have been filmed and broadcast. Why was this one kept secret? I do not wish to compromise our national security—none of us wants to do that at all—but can the Minister confirm that the cause of this failed missile launch has now been identified and resolved, and that Britain’s nuclear deterrent is fully operational?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord saw fit to criticise my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. As I am sure he would expect, the Prime Minister is routinely updated on matters of national security. This DASO happened before she assumed office but she will have been briefed on a range of nuclear issues while Prime Minister.

I turn to his point about tests made in the past. There is no set approach to communicating the outcome of demonstration and shakedown operations; that is decided on a case-by-case basis, informed by the circumstances of the time. Nothing should be read into the fact that the outcome of this particular test was not publicised.

The noble Lord asked about the test itself. If the premise of his question was to accept the validity of the weekend press reports then I cannot accept that premise. As I have said, this was a successful operation, following which HMS “Vengeance” and her crew returned to operational service for deployment on nuclear deterrent patrols, which was the purpose of the exercise.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord King of Bridgwater Portrait Lord King of Bridgwater
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I apologise to my noble friend. I understood from the clerk that in an Urgent Question we go backwards and forwards across the House.

I do not think I am the only Member of your Lordships’ House who was extremely disappointed by the line taken by the noble Lord, whom I thought normally rather a responsible spokesman on defence for the other side. I think it was a disappointment to many of us.

I think the Prime Minister was rather overzealous in her interview to preserve in this case the long-standing principle of not commenting in detail on our nuclear activities. As the Secretary of State for Defence in another place has made clear, he and the Prime Minister are kept regularly informed, as I was in my time, about the progress and activities of our critical nuclear deterrent.

The current situation is why we have tests. There have been problems before. As was made clear in the Statement, problems arise and are dealt with. The important thing is to maintain at all times the credibility of our deterrent, and anyone who seeks to undermine it or suggest that it is not working does great damage to our country. No one would be more interested in a running commentary on the activity of our deterrent tests at present than the Kremlin, Pyongyang and maybe Daesh. We need to maintain our last line of defence and its credibility. I strongly support the Statement that my noble friend has repeated here today.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend, who has immense experience of these matters. I say again that this was a successful operation. There are very few matters that cannot be discussed openly in Parliament or outside it, but this is one of them. Noble Lords will, I hope, appreciate that it is appropriate and right for government to maintain secrecy on detailed matters relating to our nuclear deterrent.

Baroness Jolly Portrait Baroness Jolly (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we on these Benches support the use of a deterrent, and the whole point of a deterrent is that people do not know, blow-by-blow, what happens when and how and where. However, it has been argued today that it could be a waste of taxpayer resources to have a nuclear deterrent, which depends on credibility for its deterrent effect, if there are doubts about its effectiveness. Does the Minister agree that the confusion surrounding this test will erode public trust in the credibility of the nuclear deterrent? Would the Government agree to make sure that Parliament and the public are kept updated on non-sensitive information?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I can only repeat that we have absolute confidence in the operation of our independent nuclear deterrent capability and that the effectiveness of the Trident nuclear system—should we ever need to employ it—is absolutely assured. I would add only that I often reflect on the importance of not believing everything one reads in the press. This is a classic example of the application of that principle.

Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield Portrait Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I witnessed the launch in question from the survey vessel two and half miles away from where the missile came out of the sea. I put it to the Minister, with great respect, that it would make it much easier for those of us who very powerfully support the independent deterrent, and the building of the four “Dreadnought” submarines in the successor class, to make the case generally in the country when we are interviewed in the media if the Minister could assure us that a full analysis has been successfully made of whatever went wrong—I have no knowledge at all of the nature of what went wrong—and that remedies have been put in place. I understand that every particle of a D5 missile is riddled with the highest security classifications, but in this case, such an assurance could be possible and would be very welcome.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the most important assurance is the one that I have already given: this is a system in which we have absolute confidence. It has never been the practice of government to give Parliament details of submarine operations or of the systems and subsystems that are tested during a demonstration and shakedown operation. But I hope I have said enough to reassure noble Lords about our deterrent and its reliability.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in naval parlance, this is a complete pot mess. A very successful DASO, which proved that “Vengeance” and her crew are well capable of being part of the CASD rotation, was carried out, but because of the way it was handled it has failed to reassure us all. I have spent my life fighting for Trident and I understand all the complexities and all the security issues. For 20 years, we have shot and sent out films of every single DASO and made an announcement about it. We did not do it this time, and consequently we are in a position where we have embarrassed our own Prime Minister—which is not very clever—and have given succour to those people who do not like the deterrent, do not understand why we need it and want to find some way of attacking it. That is what we have achieved. Does the Minister not agree that our failure to handle this openly has caused huge problems? It has given succour to those who do not like the deterrent, which our nation needs, and has embarrassed our Prime Minister. It has made a complete mess and was handled badly.

--- Later in debate ---
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I do not agree with that. I can say only that we assess the approach to communicating or not communicating the outcome of a DASO in relation to the circumstances of the time. It is true that past tests have been commented on publicly, but I put it to the noble Lord that the circumstances back then were different from the circumstances now. Nothing at all should be read into the fact that the outcome of this test was not publicised. If a Question had been put down immediately after the test took place last summer, we would have given the same Answer.

Business of the House

Earl Howe Excerpts
Thursday 19th January 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Moved by
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

That the debates on the motions in the names of Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Bruce of Bennachie set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the second Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Earl Howe Excerpts
Thursday 19th January 2017

(7 years, 3 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Moved by
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Wednesday 25 January to enable the Commonwealth Development Corporation Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the first Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces Covenant

Earl Howe Excerpts
Monday 9th January 2017

(7 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, before I respond, I am sure that the House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Lance Corporal Scott Hetherington of 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, who died while on operations in Iraq on Monday 2 January 2017.

The covenant is a big subject and time is unfortunately short, but I begin by thanking the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth for securing this debate and providing us with the opportunity to examine how effectively we, as a nation, are repaying the very great debt that we owe to our brave service personnel and their families. This is a debt that we can never repay in full, but we can at least begin to honour it by ensuring that those who sacrifice so much in our defence are treated with fairness and respect.

That is exactly why the Armed Forces covenant was introduced—to set down, unequivocally and in law, the nation’s pledge that former and current members of our Armed Forces—including reservists—and their families, should suffer no disadvantage because of their service to our nation and that special provision may be appropriate for those who have given so much, such as the injured or bereaved. That is why we are working tirelessly across government to implement and improve the Armed Forces covenant, drawing together society so that we can all fulfil our moral obligation to our military family.

A seminal part of that process is, of course, the publication of the Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report. It is a definitive guide to the covenant that outlines its key principles and achievements, explains what actions have been undertaken over the past 12 months and sets out targets for the coming year. The fifth and most recent report was published just last month, on 15 December, and I am delighted that it demonstrated considerable progress across government in the work that we are doing to support service personnel, their families and veterans, most notably in the key areas of healthcare, education and accommodation.

For example, 2016 saw NHS England launch its veterans’ trauma network, a new system to provide an extra level of support for trauma-recovering veterans and transitioning service personnel, so that their specific and lifelong healthcare needs are met more efficiently. Meanwhile, the Department of Health has developed a new integrated personal care for veterans system to help the most seriously injured service personnel and veterans transition into civilian life. In the devolved Administrations, NHS Scotland established 19 Armed Forces champions, while the Welsh Government provided annual funding of £585,000 to Veterans NHS Wales to improve support and treatment for veterans suffering from mental health issues.

On education, the Department for Education allocated around £22 million in service pupil premium payments to support the pastoral needs of over 73,000 service pupils in state schools in England, and it changed the rules for student funding so that service personnel and their families can now access student funding for distance learning courses while posted overseas. On accommodation, the Department for Communities and Local Government extended the period within which ex-service personnel and surviving partners are given priority for government-funded shared ownership schemes from 12 to 24 months after service.

Those are only some of the cross-government achievements, but they all serve as examples of just how far we have come since the Armed Forces Act 2011 enshrined the covenant into law. The challenge now is to build on this momentum, which is why the Government are establishing a new inter-ministerial group ensuring that all government departments continue to work together to fulfil the covenant vision. But it goes without saying that the MoD’s efforts remain central to achieving all of this and my department continues to work hard to galvanise each and every one of us into action, as the House would hope and quite rightly expect.

Let me turn now to exactly what defence has been up to over the past year. Last year saw the launch of a new UK Armed Forces families strategy setting out how we intend to improve the lives of service families in the round by addressing issues including housing, employment, education, health and welfare. The strategy is underpinned by an action plan, developed alongside the single services and families federations, and a £4 million commitment over the next two years to fund projects supporting families of service personnel in times of crisis or distress.

When it comes to supporting our veterans community, I am glad to reassure my noble friend Lady Scott and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, that the MoD is working closely with the Office for National Statistics and the Chief Statistician to include a question on veterans in the national census so that there will be a fuller picture of where former service personnel are in the UK. The Armed Forces Covenant Fund has £10 million each year to support the covenant by funding projects that address specific priorities, one of those being the creation of a veterans’ gateway. The aim of the initiative is to provide a single point of contact via a fully transactional website, mobile app and telephone number which will help veterans of all ages find and access specific advice and support for a whole host of issues.

That said, I should stress that most service leavers continue to make a smooth transition to civilian life. The Career Transition Partnership provides one-to-one guidance, training and employment opportunities to about 15,000 service leavers. Its success rate is significant: 95% of those who want to find employment do so within six months of leaving the Armed Forces, which compares to a 73% employment rate in the rest of the UK population. All personnel, without exception, are eligible for this support for two years after their date of discharge.

Underpinning this work on veterans and families is a concerted drive to ensure that the letter and the spirit of the covenant are applied correctly and consistently across the UK. Our goal is that anyone from the Armed Forces family based anywhere in the UK should know what they can expect from local authorities and their partners in the local community in terms of support and services. At the same time, front-line staff in any local authority should know just what is expected of them under the covenant. This is not always the case, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, rightly noted.

With this is mind, the Local Government Association, in partnership with the Forces in Mind Trust, last year commissioned a review with more than 400 representatives of local authorities to identify areas of good practice and create a covenant toolkit. This will help to raise the standard of covenant delivery across the UK. As I speak, the covenant team is developing an action plan to implement the recommendations of that review across the UK. And on the subject of consistency across the UK, to address a point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Rogan, I am delighted that the Northern Ireland Executive recently reached a consensus on sending a representative to the Cabinet Office-chaired Covenant Reference Group—a body that is key to co-ordinating the efforts of all covenant stakeholders across the nation.

At a more tactical level, the MoD has been working to resolve some of the practical difficulties encountered by our service personnel in their day-to-day lives, particularly in the commercial field. For example, in a victory for common sense, 47 of the UK’s biggest banks and building societies have now signed up to an initiative that will mean that service personnel posted away from home will be able to rent out their property without having to change to a buy-to-let mortgage, saving them time and money. Meanwhile, 86% of the UK’s motor insurance industry has now committed to waive cancellation fees and preserve no-claims discounts for up to three years when personnel and their families are posted abroad. More than 1,300 businesses and organisations have now signed the Armed Forces covenant.

Finally the team has been focusing on a subject raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Dean: improving communication about the covenant. Trying to co-opt the whole of society into delivering our covenant vision is nigh on impossible, as she said, if people do not understand what is being asked of them. Likewise, ensuring that members of our military family can take full advantage of the covenant is impossible if they do not know what is on offer. So 2016 saw a rebranding of the Armed Forces covenant. In April we launched a new website to make information about the covenant easier to find. On the ground, we saw the introduction of a 200-strong network of Armed Forces covenant champions across Armed Forces units. These military champions act as the focal point for their local community, helping to deliver information about the covenant directly to personnel and their families.

I will try to answer as many questions raised by noble Lords as I can. I will write on those that I do not address. I am happy to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, that there has been no softening of the Government’s primary statement, which refers both to fair treatment and to no disadvantage.

The right reverend Prelate raised mental health. The best available evidence suggests that the mental health of veterans is as good as or better than that of the rest of the civilian population—but where problems occur, the highest standard of support is made available. More than £13 million from the LIBOR fund has been awarded to programmes specifically supporting mental health in the Armed Forces community.

A number of noble Lords referred to accommodation. We continue to invest in improving accommodation for our people and their families. Standards have significantly improved. Regarding social housing for service leavers, the MoD works closely with the Department for Communities and Local Government and the devolved Administrations to ensure that service personnel do not experience any disadvantage as a result of their military service when applying for social housing. The MoD referral scheme assists service leavers and their families with social housing applications following discharge.

Considerable help is available on education and schools for service children; I will write on that subject. My noble friend Lady Sugg rightly emphasised the contribution of Armed Forces families and spouses. Again, I will write on that subject.

I listened with great interest to my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the Northern Ireland legacy issues. I can tell him before I write that the Defence and Northern Ireland Secretaries are working to create a Stormont House Agreement Bill to ensure that veterans are not unfairly treated or disproportionately investigated.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether I could give reassurance that the Northern Ireland Veterans Support Committee will be able to continue its good work. I cannot commit funding from the Dispatch Box at the moment, but I will find out the details and write to him.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked about the composition of war pensions and compensation tribunals. I have today written to the noble and gallant Lord on this subject. In brief, it is something that we will look at as part of the wider MoJ-led transformation of tribunals. It is very much a matter in its focus.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, asked about harmony guidelines. We are working to ensure that the three services’ harmony guidelines are met, but I fear there will continue to be occasions when that is not possible. Our job is to minimise those occasions and that is what we are trying to do.

My time is up. I hope that the House will accept that a great deal is going on. There is more that we can do and room for improvement, but we remain steadfast in our commitment to work with all our partners on removing disadvantage, instilling fairness and respect, and meeting the unique needs of our Armed Forces community.

Register of Hereditary Peers

Earl Howe Excerpts
Monday 9th January 2017

(7 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Grocott Portrait Lord Grocott
- Hansard - - - Excerpts



To ask the Leader of the House whether she is satisfied that the requirements of the Register of Hereditary Peers are compatible with equalities legislation.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the Equality Act 2010 provides that neither a life peerage nor a hereditary peerage, as a dignity or honour conferred by the Crown, is a public or personal office for the purposes of the Act. As such, the register of hereditary Peers is not subject to equalities legislation. As provided for in the House of Lords Act 1999, Standing Orders of the House make provision for the replacement by elections of hereditary Peers who are Members of this House. It is therefore a matter for this House, when regulating its own affairs.

Lord Grocott Portrait Lord Grocott (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am glad to hear the Deputy Leader confirm that this will ultimately be a matter for this House. I ask him also to confirm that the current register of hereditary Peers—containing as it does the names of all those people eligible to stand in by-elections—contains the names of 199 people, just one of whom is a woman. I would have thought that this statistic alone should bring into disrepute the whole by-election system for the replacement of hereditary Peers. I should be grateful if the noble Earl, Lord Howe, would do the House a favour by announcing that the Government will support my Bill, which costs nothing, hurts no one and has overwhelming support in this House. In so doing, we would be able to consign this whole by-election system to the dustbin, where it deserves to be.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I must declare an obvious personal interest in the context of this Question, as an elected hereditary Peer. But in the context of what the noble Lord seeks to achieve by his Bill, it would not in our view be an incremental reform. Reform of that kind would clearly change the means by which membership of this House is determined, as well as its composition, and would be a fundamental change to how it operates. The Government’s position is that comprehensive reform of the House of Lords is not a priority during this Parliament.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, until the Grocott Bill or something like it has a realistic prospect of success, should we not look at the electorate for the by-elections? Can we not also take a crumb of comfort that one of those high on the list on the Labour side is Lord Stansgate?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I am sure that the House will wish to note that fact but I can only say again that the process for the filling of vacancies on the register of hereditary Peers is a matter for this House under its Standing Orders. It is open to any noble Lord to make representation to your Lordships’ Procedure Committee and to the Lord Speaker on any relevant matter.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Minister said this would not be an incremental change. By my reckoning, if we take the hereditary Peers who are currently in your Lordships’ House, if we fail to have by-elections to replace every single one of them as they choose to retire or depart by other means, it would take 60 or 70 years. I think that is a fairly incremental change. I suggest to the Minister that this House thinks we should end by-elections for hereditary Peers—he just has to be here when we have our debates. There are very few noble Lords, including hereditary Peers, who think it is the right thing to have the nonsense of these elections. The other House would agree with us; the public agree with us. Why do the Government not just get on and make this minor, incremental and sensible change?

--- Later in debate ---
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I say it is not incremental because the end point of such a measure would be to entrench a House—if one excludes the Lords spiritual—composed solely of appointed life Peers. That is where the Government are coming from. I suggest to the noble Baroness that we have an opportunity, through the committee set up by the Lord Speaker and chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, for noble Lords to make representations to the committee on this or any other associated matter.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I wonder whether the Minister would care to reflect on what he has just said. It does not seem to me that there is anything in the Bill that my noble friend Lord Grocott is bringing forward which would preclude further and different kinds of reform within, say, the next 60 years during which it would be possible to see the end of the hereditary principle in this House, if only my noble friend’s Bill were in operation. Therefore subsequent reforms might overtake that over time, and I think many of us hope that they will, so is that really a reason to stand in the way of this Bill?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, as the Government’s manifesto made clear, we believe that the size of the House should be addressed, and that is the issue primarily being addressed by the committee set up by the Lord Speaker. However, we also made it clear that with so many pressing legislative priorities, not least those stemming from the result of the UK referendum, comprehensive reform is not a priority during this Parliament. We do not wish to close to our minds to that idea. A good case can be made for comprehensive reform, and it is worth remembering that in the last Parliament the Government put forward a Bill that would have made 80% of the eligible membership elected.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, surely one of the most pressing problems is the fact that we are so horribly Londoncentric.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My noble friend raises an issue which I believe has often been addressed in the past, but again it is not beyond the scope of the committee that has been established by the Lord Speaker. However, it is difficult to address that issue satisfactorily if one is going to be fair across the whole country.

Lord Newby Portrait Lord Newby (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I wonder whether the Minister will reconsider the answer he just gave about the amount of legislative time involved in this incremental change and his assertion that in the period ahead, during which this Bill could easily be passed, the House will be overpreoccupied by legislation relating to Brexit. Surely the case is that, even if we have a Bill to trigger Article 50, we know that the Government and the Labour Party agree that that Bill should be through by 31 March. Therefore, would it not be possible for the Government to give time for the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, from 1 April?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

As with any proposal to reform your Lordships’ House, the key is that we have a prospect of securing broad consensus for whatever is being proposed. Where there are further measures that can command consensus across the House, then the Government are more than willing to work with your Lordships to look at how to take them forward, and we hope to see such proposals emerging from the Lord Speaker’s committee.

Lord Soley Portrait Lord Soley (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister keeps referring to the Government recognising that this is not the time for a comprehensive review. Does he not accept that step-by-step change might be a lot more effective than a comprehensive approach, which has often failed in the past?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The Government are certainly not averse to incremental reform, providing we can agree on what incremental reform means, which is the reason for my earlier answer to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. As proof of that, one has only to look at the two Acts relating to the composition of the House that we passed in the last Parliament—the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015 and the House of Lords Reform Act 2014—as well as the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015, which again was a measure in this bracket.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, these days, why should gender have any relevance for the descent of anything to anybody?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My noble friend makes a point which I am sure would resonate with many of your Lordships. I am sure noble Lords would agree that once Peers reach this House, the equality principle is unquestioned.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister recall that the insertion by Lord Cranborne—now the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—of this dimension into the 1999 Act was intended precisely to make it more difficult to put in a halfway reform and to ensure that when we moved further on the question of elected hereditaries, we moved towards some form of comprehensive reform? Does he also accept that the main thrust of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, in this is to get rid of the elected hereditaries, but to stop there and go no further?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

I agree with both parts of the noble Lord’s proposition.

Lord Anderson of Swansea Portrait Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Earl has said that my noble friend Lord Grocott’s proposal is best advanced through a change in Standing Orders—presumably not through legislation. What are the implications of that? Will the noble Earl and the Government give my noble friend an opportunity to test the opinion of the House?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, it is open to any noble Lord to approach the Procedure Committee or indeed the Lord Speaker with a proposal for consideration. If a proposition then comes before the House, we will of course look at it on its merits.

A159 Wildcat Helicopter

Earl Howe Excerpts
Monday 9th January 2017

(7 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon Portrait Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and wish all noble Lords a happy new year.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the Government fully recognise the capabilities of the UK aviation industry and the contribution that companies such as Leonardo make to our country. Wildcat airframe production for the UK Armed Forces has now drawn to an end and no decision has yet been taken on retention of the tooling and jigs. However, we are working closely with the company on this issue.

Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon Portrait Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I wish—in a spirit even of the fag end of good will—to say thank you for the Answer that the Minister has given, but I find it difficult to do so. We are asking for a very simple thing here. The Government own the tooling and jigs which support the job. Leonardo wants to ship those jobs out to Poland. The Government have the leverage to insist that, before that happens, there is a proper, competitive study on the comparative production costs between the two. That is not asking very much. I remind the Minister that the Government seriously damaged the future of Britain’s only stand-alone helicopter facility by handing out orders to the United States in the early years of this Government, without any competitive study whatever. If they commit that mistake again, we are bound to assume that their promise to do everything they can to preserve jobs in Britain are merely empty words. This will be seen as an insult to the technicians and engineers who spent 100 years providing our armed services with world-beating helicopters in the last period.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will recognise that decisions on aircraft procurement, as indeed procurement across the defence piece, have to represent best value for the UK taxpayer. On the Wildcat issue, I think the noble Lord will accept that there is no requirement or pressing need for the Government to make a decision yet because no export orders have been received by Leonardo helicopters. However, we clearly have an interest in this. We are working with the company to ensure that UK work content is maintained, and I hope enhanced, for any export orders. The decision on whether to allow the jigs and tools to be relocated offshore will be based on a balanced assessment focused on what is best for UK prosperity.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister believe there is a strategic requirement for our nation to have the ability to develop, design and build complex fast jets, and to do exactly the same for helicopters and warships, or is there no strategic requirement for this? Has this issue been considered by the National Security Council?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My Lords, the Government are committed to keeping the UK as a leading aerospace nation. We are fully engaged with Leonardo on future helicopter work in that region. For example, we have signed a 10-year strategic partnership agreement with Leonardo, which of course is key to maintaining cost effectiveness, driving exports and innovation. The Aerospace Growth Partnership, which is being managed by my colleagues in BEIS, will undoubtedly be of benefit in the long term to the UK aerospace industry.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, on this important matter for our aerospace industry, what optimism does my noble friend have that we may be able to export Wildcats? Is there any real prospect of that? If so, is that not a good thing?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

My noble friend is right. The drive to ensure that Wildcat secures export orders is central to the work that the company and my ministerial colleagues in BEIS are doing. We are working closely with the company to that end.

Lord Touhig Portrait Lord Touhig (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in an uncertain world, Britain needs our Armed Forces to be well equipped, and they need the support of the men and women employed in our defence industries. If the noble Earl agrees with that, will he say what the Government are doing to ensure the highly skilled workforce at GKN is not lost to Britain’s defence? He and I both know we will need them in the years ahead.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

The noble Lord is right about the need to maintain high-end skills in this country if we are to maintain our position as a leading player in the aerospace market. The Defence Growth Partnership is one element of this. We have a substantial programme of work already under way to encourage the growth and competitiveness of UK industry. Defence is playing an active part in the cross-government work on the national industrial strategy, which we aim to publish during the next few weeks. It makes sense to allow those programmes to deliver before taking a view on whether any further defence-specific work is needed.

Lord Soley Portrait Lord Soley (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Are the Government aware of the talk among several European Union aircraft manufacturers of both civil and military helicopters and jets that they have a real opportunity to take over production from the UK when it exits Europe? Real discussions are going on in Europe about how production can be transferred from the UK to the European Union. How much thought have the Government given to this?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

Naturally, that is being looked at in the context of the Government’s wider industrial strategy, but the 10-year industrial strategic partnership arrangement we have with Leonardo will act as a driver and influence to ensure that that company focuses on using the skills and expertise available in this country over the medium to long term.

Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, when the Government published a statement last week saying that the new aircraft carrier to be launched this year would dramatically increase Britain’s firepower in the defence of the world, did they understand whether there would be any planes to fly on this aircraft carrier, or are they relying on helicopters, machine guns or whatever?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -

We have already taken delivery of seven F35E aircraft for the “Queen Elizabeth” aircraft carrier. There are more to come. Indeed, we accelerated the procurement programme when we announced the results of the SDSR in 2015. The “Queen Elizabeth” aircraft carrier will be fully manned and fully equipped when she is ready to sail.

Business of the House

Earl Howe Excerpts
Tuesday 20th December 2016

(7 years, 4 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Moved by
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - -



That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday 12 January to enable the Savings (Government Contributions) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.