International Monetary Fund: UK Subscription
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
On 23 February, the UK will increase its quota subscription to the IMF by 9,416.6 million special drawing rights (SDRs), equivalent to £9,270.2 million using exchange rates on 22 February 2016. This raises the UK’s total quota subscription from 10,738.5 million SDRs to 20,155.1 million SDRs.
On 20 January 2016, a sufficiency of IMF members notified the IMF of the completion of relevant legislative procedures to implement resolution 66-2 of the Board of Governors of the IMF (DEP2011-0977), thereby bringing increases to IMF members’ quota subscriptions envisaged by that resolution into effect. Parliamentary approval in the UK for implementation of resolution 66-2 was secured via the International Monetary Fund (Increase in Subscription) Order 2011, which came into force on 19 July 2011.
On the same day as the UK increases its quota subscription, two temporary loan facilities with the IMF will change. These facilities act as a second line of defence behind quotas. The UK’s commitment to the new arrangements to borrow will roll back by 9,178.2 million SDRs—equivalent to £9,035.5 million—and a bilateral loan commitment of the same value will become effective.
Worldwide quota increases form part of a wider reform package which makes the IMF stronger and more legitimate. It is vital at this time that we have an IMF equipped to strengthen the resilience of the global economy against risks and spillovers.
An SDR is the unit of account used by the IMF. Its value is calculated daily as a weighted average of the US dollar, euro, yen and pound sterling.
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Protection of the EU’s Financial Interests
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. It is also a pleasure to be joined by the Minister of State, Department for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West to discuss the three reports outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford. The Government welcome the three reports—the European Court of Auditors’ annual audit report for the 2014 budget, the ECA report on the European development funds in 2014 and the European Commission’s “Fight against fraud 2014 Annual Report”—which continue to play a key role in informing the UK’s approach to EU fraud and financial management. The Council vote on the discharge of the EU budget in 2014 will take place at ECOFIN on 12 February and will be discussed in COREPER the day after tomorrow. The Government’s priority is to hear the Committee’s contributions on EU fraud and financial management before those meetings.
As the Committee is aware, the Government take a tough stance on EU financial management. The Prime Minister’s 2013 deal, which represented the first ever real-terms cut to the EU budget framework, set the context and imposed financial constraints that are forcing the Commission to prioritise spending and focus on value. Against that backdrop, we welcome the European Court of Auditors’ report on the 2014 EU budget, which, in particular, increased the focus on performance and results.
Compliance is important, but without considering performance we will never achieve the maximum value for money. It is necessary, but not sufficient. As Vice-President for budget Kristalina Georgieva said, a 100% compliant road to nowhere
“is a 100% waste of our taxpayers’ money”.
We are therefore pushing hard for a more effective EU performance framework that delivers results.
Proper financial management is essential and it is clear that the ECA’s verdict on the EU accounts does not yet give taxpayers sufficient confidence in the system. While EU revenues and commitments were given a clean audit, the Government regret that there has been no significant improvement in the estimated level of error for EU payments. Consequently, the ECA has been unable to grant EU budget expenditure a positive statement of assurance for the 21st consecutive year. This estimated level of error in the EU budget—reflecting expenditure that is not compliant with EU regulations—stands at 4.4%, which is well above the acceptable 2% threshold, and shows only marginal improvement on last year’s 4.5% error rate. We are not achieving the rigorous standards of budgetary management that we expect to see at EU level. We are therefore pushing all those involved to make further improvements.
Until the 2009 audit, previous Governments had consistently voted to approve the discharge of EU annual budgets. However, in 2010, under the current Chancellor, the UK took the unprecedented step of abstaining on the Council decision to approve the Commission’s management of the EU budget. Subsequently, for the past four years, the UK has voted against the discharge of annual EU budgets. We intend to continue to do so this year, issuing our own counter-statement calling for an increased focus on performance and setting out our own recommendations.
On EU spending in the UK, I am pleased to confirm that where the ECA has identified specific cases of potential weakness in the UK, the relevant authorities have engaged with the Commission and the ECA to resolve those issues. In the majority of cases, the necessary recovery action or sanction has either been completed or is under way.
Finally, I turn to the Commission’s report on the fight against fraud in 2014. Based on Commission estimates, established fraud is likely to affect only about 0.02% of EU payments. None the less, any fraudulent misuse of EU funds is unacceptable. That is why the Government take a zero tolerance approach to such criminal activity by fully supporting anti-fraud in the EU, including co-operating with the European anti-fraud office, OLAF.
I want to conclude by assuring the Committee of the Government’s strong commitment to improving EU budget management, borne out by our focus on three key areas: driving simplification to reduce compliance errors; encouraging a sharper focus on performance and results; and continuous improvement of domestic control systems to ensure the effective management of EU funds in the UK.
I will now hand over to the Minister of State, Department for International Development, to say a few words about the report on European development funds. I look forward to the subsequent debate.
Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to appear before you, Sir Edward; I do not think that I have had the pleasure before. I have a brief question for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I understood him to say that 0.2% of EU spending was thought to be subject to fraud. Have the UK Government made an assessment of the level of fraud and irregularities, which can be different, relating to the UK’s share of that EU expenditure?
Mr Gauke
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. It is 0.02% that is identified as being fraud. I think that a slightly larger number is suspected of and looked at as being fraud, but when it comes down to it, only 0.02% is established as being fraud.
In terms of the UK comparison, it can be difficult to make exact comparisons. All managing authorities across the UK have in place robust anti-fraud measures. Those include fraud risk assessments, mandatory checks on payments, fraud awareness training and regular referrals to OLAF where suspected fraud arises. We also support OLAF through the work of the designated UK anti-fraud co-ordinator, AFCOS, which is based in the City of London Police alongside Action Fraud. AFCOS continues to engage actively with OLAF and other member states to investigate and bring criminal proceedings against perpetrators of EU fraud. It would also be fair to say, looking at the ECA’s assessment of member states, that it samples member states’ activities; it is not intended to be a thorough audit of each and every member state to produce those numbers, so there is not a specific UK error rate on fraud, just as there is not for financial management errors.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Hon. Members may notice a sceptical note in my questions, but—[Interruption.] They are just very accurate. We are a very substantial net contributor to the European budget, and 4.4% of the budget going amiss is the equivalent of certainly £1 billion and possibly more. Should we not be more concerned than some of the large recipient countries, because it is our money that is going into the wrong pockets?
Mr Gauke
It is certainly right that we should be concerned about that money. That would be the case regardless of whether we were a net contributor, but the hon. Gentleman makes a fair point: we make a substantial contribution to the EU budget every year. The UK has traditionally played a leading role in ensuring budgetary discipline in the European Union, and I highlight the Prime Minister’s achievement in 2013 of a real-terms cut in the EU budget for the multi-annual financial framework. An important area for us is ensuring that money is spent wisely and that we do not spend too much money at an EU level. We are a strong advocate of sound financial management and are committed to ensuring that EU funds are safeguarded and managed well. The Commission has ultimate responsibility for the implementation and management of the EU budget, but all member states, including the UK, must take responsibility in terms of putting pressure on the Commission and ensuring that money spent by member states is spent well.
Kelvin Hopkins
No doubt there are particular budgets that are more vulnerable and particular countries where the budget is not as appropriately controlled as it might be. The Financial Secretary talked about simplification. Are the British Government targeting certain areas and do they have concerns about particular countries where the budget might not be appropriately spent?
Mr Gauke
In terms of the UK’s action in this area, we have in place comprehensive procedures to ensure that EU funds comply with UK and EU rules, including a role in programme audits and preventive anti-fraud measures. The hon. Gentleman raises concerns about particular areas. Structural funds, for example, which are a sizeable part of the EU budget, have to be focused upon. The Commission set up a high level group on European structural investment funds simplification last year, whose work is ongoing. Although the agenda is in its early stages, the UK continues to engage actively by advising on simplified costs and financial instruments.
In agreeing the terms of the 2014 to 2020 structural funds regulations, the UK actively pushed for and achieved greater use of simplified costs, reductions in document retention periods, and lighter and more automated annual reporting. In terms of good practices, DCLG’s work in improving public procurement procedures was highlighted in an ECA special report last year. The Department has set up an internal network to review public procurement issues, including the issue of guidance, case studies and reviews of public procurement checks and audits.
As I have said, the UK takes this matter very seriously. Although the Commission has ultimate responsibility for implementation and management of the EU budget, we have a role in taking responsibility to push for reforms.
Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. May I say I admire how you have generated such a beautiful gender balance on the bench beside you?
I have two questions, if I may. My first is for the Minister of State. I am interested in this issue because I have spent much of my life in parts of the developing world and on aid projects. I have a very precise question, but, by way of a short preamble, I have a lot of sympathy with those who are at times critical of agencies that operate internationally. At one stage in my life I was in Yemen to look at a college built with World Bank money and with United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation development. My terms of reference were simple: we have built this building, now tell us what to do with it. It was not necessarily the best project that had been set up. The Minister mentioned the recent report, published on the EU website, on the amount of money wasted. He said that in his and the Government’s view, the report was “very good”. Will he explain precisely what “very good” is?
Roger Mullin
My supplementary to the Financial Secretary is also about the international aspects of fraud. Many projects funded through the European Union require multinational partnerships. I am aware that some fraud has occurred in more than one member state. Does he have a general view of how the UK compares with other EU member states on multinational projects?
Mr Gauke
There is a general view that the UK is strongly determined to address fraud. We have a strong record of budgetary discipline in the EU and with multinational projects, and we have demonstrated that we take fraud very seriously.
From the documents before us, it is hard to draw comparisons between the UK and other member states. There is no directly comparable error rate for the UK’s management of EU funds against which the ECA’s error rate for the EU budget can be measured. To our knowledge, there are no national accounts of major economies, including the UK’s, that can be meaningfully compared with the ECA’s audit of EU accounts. Only a few countries—the UK is one—produce whole of Government accounts. It is hard to compare precisely our record with those of other member states or countries outside the EU. The UK remains determined to root out fraud, wherever it might be.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
Like so many others, I want to say that it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I confess to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench that I have not read these documents cover to cover.
Stephen Hammond
It is indeed shocking, although I thought it would be more useful to spend my weekend trying to ensure that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is elected in May.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford that it is shocking that this is the 21st year in which the accounts have not been properly audited and signed off. That would not be acceptable in the financial world. With my financial hat on, I read three of the chapters, and I would like to test something with the Financial Secretary. Chapter 3 is about getting results from the EU budget. The common themes include poor performance setting, poor planning and objectives that are not fit for management purposes. My hon. Friend will have noticed that it states that budgetary strategy is not aligned with political strategy, which is an explicit criticism of the inability to make proper financial judgments.
Hidden in the documents—the Commission did not even bother to reply—is paragraph 3.79, which gets to the heart of the lack of results in partnership arrangements. I would like to hear from my hon. Friend exactly how the Government will put pressure on the Commission to respond with more a bit more force than its bland statements.
Mr Gauke
My hon. Friend raises an important point. It is traditional in these debates that we focus on error and specifically on fraud, but as I touched upon in my opening remarks the focus on performance should not be forgotten. We welcome the ECA’s increased focus on performance while retaining its valuable role on compliance. That shows there is recognition that compliance without performance will achieve little. Strengthening the ECA’s work on performance could help to maximise the efficiency, economy and effectiveness of EU spending.
It is also in line with Vice-President Georgieva’s budget for results initiative, which aims to develop a more performance-orientated budget that delivers tangible results for EU citizens. We see this as an important opportunity to help to improve the transparency of EU spending to taxpayers, and its value and efficiency. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor made our position clear at ECOFIN last year.
We are working closely with the Commission on this issue, offering our expertise in areas such as transparency and value for money. The Commission is keen to drive this agenda forward. In particular, it is our priority to ensure that this work feeds into the mid-term review of the multi-annual financial framework this year. It is important that the work in this area is joined up with other related initiatives to improve budgetary management, such as proposals for simplification of the common agricultural policy and structural funds, which were launched earlier this year by the Commission, and the wider mid-term review this year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon raises an important point. Having heard Vice-President Georgieva discuss these matters on a number of occasions, I know that she is clearly very personally committed to a move towards ensuring that performance is at the forefront of how EU money is spent, and that is an initiative that we support and welcome.
Stephen Hammond
I am grateful for that response and I am sure that many in this Committee will hope that Vice-President Georgieva’s performance will show the result of that next year.
The one other issue that I just wanted to raise with my hon. Friend is the contentious nature of state aid rules and infringements, because obviously that goes quite far towards the heart of trade. Paragraph 6.39 indicates that there were 14 projects that infringed state aid rules and the Commission’s response is, “We’ll deem whatever action’s necessary.” Given that these projects are obviously usually highly controversial and get to the source of quite a lot of disagreements, can he assure the Committee that we will be pushing the Commission to act where deemed necessary so that action is taken?
Mr Gauke
In terms of UK infringement of state aid rules, the mandate of the relevant audit authorities for structural funds in the UK includes checks on compliance with state aid rules. The UK project reference here is not identified by the ECA, so it is not possible to comment on the nature of the errors. However, if my hon. Friend’s concern is about ensuring that state aid rules are properly enforced, I say to him that we will continue to push the Commission to focus on the areas of greatest error, and we think that that would be beneficial in ensuring that the EU state aid regime works as effectively for Europe as it can.
Rob Marris
I have a question for the Minister of State. In her explanatory memorandum dated 10 December, Baroness Verma, the Under-Secretary of State, Department for International Development, pointed out that the European development fund is the European Union’s main development co-operation instrument and that the total budget for it in 2014 was £34.5 billion. She also said that about 15% of that came from the United Kingdom. I say “about 15%”, because in paragraph 2 she says it was 14.68% and in paragraph 21, on page 391 of the bundle, she says it was 14.82%—it is about 15%. The Minister of State referred to 11% of DFID’s budget being spent via the European Union. Could he say briefly what the process is for deciding the percentage of DFID’s budget that is spent via the European Union?
Mr Gauke
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their participation in the debate. I thank the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath for his warm words of appreciation. He brings an amiability to his role as the Member of Parliament for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath that is perhaps unprecedented.
Mr Gauke
Indeed.
I thank the hon. Members for Luton North and for Wolverhampton South West for their questions, which I will attempt to address. I also thank other hon. Members who participated in the debate.
As the Committee is aware, the Government have taken an increasingly robust stance on financial management. Although the estimated European Court of Auditors 4.4% error rate from the 2014 EU budget shows a slight improvement in the estimated level of error, it is a marginal reduction from the 4.5% error rate in the previous year and remains well above the ECA’s acceptable threshold of 2%.
We want to see more ambition and progress in the area, so, as I confirmed earlier, the Government will vote against discharge of the 2014 EU budget at this month’s ECOFIN. That is the most public way for member states to take a tough stance on financial management and the Government continue to make that stand for UK taxpayers. None the less, we welcome the efforts of Vice-President Georgieva to manage the budget better and to focus on performance. The UK is taking a proactive role in driving that agenda forward.
The hon. Member for Luton North asked about the difference between fraud and error, which was touched on by his Front-Bench colleague. Fraud is the deliberate criminal misuse of EU funds. Financial errors are breaches of often complex EU regulations. Of course, the Government take a zero-tolerance approach to fraud. As I said earlier, only an estimated 0.02% of EU payments are established as fraudulent, according to Commission data. The “Fight against fraud 2014 Annual Report” shows that, across the EU, cases of suspected or potential fraud affected around 0.26% of EU payments and 0.8% of EU revenues. Of these, Commission estimates suggest that around 8% are likely to go on to be established as actual fraud. So I do not think we should consider that that 4.4% is all fraud.
Kelvin Hopkins
I thank the Minister for his explanation. However, the discrepancy between definitely defined fraud and the money that has been spent inappropriately suggests a relaxed attitude to expenditure—money splashing about and finding its way into the pockets of people who might be politically helpful and so on. It may not be fraud, but it leans that way.
Mr Gauke
First, where I would agree with the hon. Gentleman is that failures of financial management matter. Whether it is fraud or not, we should have stringent standards and take a robust approach. However, there is another context. We often talk about fraud and error, or error and fraud, in the context of welfare payments, and when politicians allow the percentages that refer to fraud and error to be described as simple fraud, those politicians tend to be criticised. Indeed, I have heard people make the case that we should refer to error and fraud, not fraud and error, because the larger part of the error and fraud budget relates to error and is not proven to be fraud. So I think that approach should also be borne in mind.
It is also the case that, as has been mentioned, much of the legislation governing the EU funds is complex, and the associated guidance does not always offer the necessary level of clarity. Some of the errors identified are systemic, recurrent, and affect various member states and EU institutions. It is therefore clear that the overarching rules governing these areas need to be addressed. I do not wish to downplay the importance of dealing with error or any kind of financial mismanagement, but it is not the same as fraud. It is not synonymous with fraud, and the element that can clearly be identified as fraud is a subset of the overall 4.4% number that we are talking about.
Kelvin Hopkins
Clearly, we must not confuse error and fraud. Nevertheless, if the vast proportion of the money that is inappropriately spent is described as error, it enables those who want to play it all down to be successful in reducing concern about the money that is misspent. There might be a penumbra somewhere between fraud and genuine, innocent error.
Mr Gauke
Yes. I do not in any way want to downplay that 4.4% number. It is too high and needs to be addressed. On the 0.02% that is identified as fraud, there may well be sums of money that in the end are not identified as fraud, but might be getting close to it. I recognise that point. However, I would not want us to consider that the two are synonymous.
The hon. Gentleman raised a point about expenditure levels. It is worth reiterating again that in 2013 the Prime Minister secured the first ever real-terms cut to the multiannual financial framework for the period 2014 to 2020, forcing necessary budget restraint. For example, both the 2014 and 2015 budgets represented cash and real-terms cuts compared with the 2013 budget, which was the last year of the previous MFF. From 2010 to 2013, we were still working on the MFF that had been agreed by the previous Government. Tempted as I am to debate the weaknesses of that agreement, I would rather focus on the successes of the 2013 agreement, negotiated by the current Prime Minister.
Turning to the detailed points made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West, he first raised the directive on the fight against fraud to the Union’s financial interests by means of criminal law—the PIF directive. The UK supports the directive’s broad aims, but the draft text contained several unacceptable elements, such as the inclusion of VAT in the directive’s scope. While the Council’s general approach of 2013 removed many of the unacceptable elements, discussions are ongoing and the final text is yet to be agreed. As such, the UK has elected not to opt in to the PIF directive at this stage but continues actively to engage in EU negotiations and will consider the case for a post-adoption opt-in once the final text has been agreed. I will of course keep hon. Members informed of progress in that respect.
We of course continue to take VAT fraud seriously at both national and EU levels. In addition to working to tackle VAT fraud domestically, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs continues to work closely with other member states and international agencies to combat VAT and other cross-border fraud. Additionally, member states continue actively to work together to share knowledge and expertise through the Fiscalis programme and exchange information on potential missing trader intra-community fraud in the EUROFISC network. The UK has also successfully pushed for the increased use of multilateral control systems, involving a co-ordinated exercise in which two or more member states verify the tax liability of businesses, to investigate cross-border VAT fraud. However, the UK Government’s position on VAT fraud is that it should be dealt with at a national level, not an EU level, as it is primarily a national resource.
As for the other detailed points that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West raised, I will write to him on the specific policies outlined in the explanatory memorandum to the Commission’s “Fight against fraud 2014 Annual Report”, which, as he said, I signed on 24 August. I reassure him that it did not get in the way of the Gauke family holiday, much excitement though there would have been at the opportunity to run through the memorandum on a wet afternoon in north Wales. In the event, it did not interrupt us and I think we played Uno instead.
On missing trader intra-community fraud, it is worth pointing out that the estimates of attempted MTIC fraud have now decreased from some £2.5 billion to £3.5 billion in 2008-09, which I suspect we debated back then, to between £0.5 billion and £1 billion, which has held steady over the past four years. Nevertheless, we recognise that fraud poses a constant threat, but HMRC remains vigilant. HMRC has been in the vanguard of member states developing tools and arguments to deal effectively with VAT fraud, MTIC fraud in particular, and is active in EU forums to ensure the spread of good practice and greater co-operation between tax authorities.
Rather than attempt a definitive definition of the reverse charge this afternoon, I will include one in my letter. In short, it is about shifting the responsibility for reclaiming input taxes within a chain of transactions involving VAT. The reverse charge was something used by the previous Labour Government to counter MTIC fraud. I will write to hon. Members with a definitive definition.
On the European Public Prosecutor’s Office, the UK will not participate in the establishment of any European Public Prosecutor. Nevertheless, the Government retain a considerable interest in negotiations on the European Public Prosecutor, given its potential impact on us and bodies such as Eurojust in which we currently play a role. The Home Office leads on that matter.
The role of the anti-fraud co-ordination service varies across member states. The UK’s role includes investigating irregularities involving criminal behaviour—a function that the City of London police is well placed to perform. The AFCOS has attended EU conferences designed to facilitate the sharing of information and best practices across member states, enhancing co-operation on the important issue. The UK’s AFCOS actively supports OLAF in investigations in Brussels through facilitating interviews, statements and visits to the UK.
On structural funds, the ECA has indicated that a significant proportion of errors in its audits are related to public procurement procedures, which is partly due to the complexity of the rules. The ECA acknowledged in a recent special report on public procurement issues the good practices introduced by the UK since the errors in 2009-10. The UK authorities are aware of the need to continue improvement of public procurement procedures in structural funds programmes for the 2014 to 2020 period.
The UK welcomes the fact that the ECA recognised the different definitions of customs audit applied across member states and revised its assessment accordingly. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West raised a further point about preventing the falsification of documents—one of the primary ways in which fraud is committed. The UK has a number of policies in place. The Government support efforts to reduce fraud in the EU, including the work of the European anti-fraud office, OLAF, in detecting and tackling fraud, and in seeking financial redress for the EU budget when it is found.
Finally, the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath raised the issue of different countries’ practices in ensuring compliance with EU aid spending. Member states are responsible, but ultimate responsibility lies with the Commission, which needs to ensure compliance across the EU by issuing clear guidelines and ensuring that effective control systems are in place.
I hope that those points of information and clarification are helpful to the Committee. I thank hon. Members for their ongoing engagement with the issues and for their continued support of the Government’s strong position on financial management and fraud.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 11470/15 and Addenda 1 to 6, a Commission Report: Protection of the European Union’s financial interests—Fight against fraud 2014 Annual Report, and unnumbered European Union Documents, the European Court of Auditors’ 2014 Annual Reports on the implementation of the budget and on the activities funded by the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th European Development Funds; agrees that budgetary discipline and robust financial management at all levels remains crucial, and that EU taxpayers must have confidence that their funds are being effectively managed and implemented at an EU level; expresses disappointment that the error rate for EU budget payments shows only a slight improvement on last year; supports the Government’s efforts to continue to engage with the Commission and Member States to drive improvements to reduce the error rate, in particular, advancing the simplification agenda; stresses the importance of the EU budget achieving results as well as being compliant; and presses the Commission for a clear action plan to address the European Court of Auditors’ recommendations relating to the European Development Fund in order to improve its error rate.
Tax Avoidance and Multinational Companies
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” in line 1 to end and add:
“notes that the Government has taken action to promote international cooperation in relation to clamping down on tax avoidance by multinational companies, challenging the international tax rules which have not been updated since they were first developed in the 1920s, that multilateral cooperation at an international level has included the UK playing a leading role in the G20-OECD Base Erosion and Profit Shifting Project to review all international tax rules and increase tax transparency, and as part of that, the UK was the first country to commit to implementing the OECD country-by-country reporting model within domestic legislation, that the Government recognises the case for publishing country-by-country reports on a multilateral basis, that the Government has introduced more than 40 changes to tax law, that the various measures taken by the Government have included the introduction of a diverted profits tax aimed at targeting companies who use contrived arrangements to divert profits from the UK, stopping the use of offshore employment intermediaries to avoid employer National Insurance contributions, stopping companies from obtaining a tax advantage by entering into contrived arrangements to turn old tax losses or restricted use into more versatile in-year deductions, and requiring taxpayers who are using avoidance schemes that have been defeated through the courts to pay the tax in dispute with HM Revenue and Customs upfront, and that the Government is committed to going further, enabling HM Revenue and Customs to recover an additional £7.2 billion over the Parliament.”
It is a great pleasure to move the Government’s amendment. There is much that we have heard from the Labour party today on this subject that is wrong, confused and, to put it kindly, oblivious to the record of the last Labour Government. However, before addressing those points, I hope to strike a note of consensus. Both sides of the House believe that all taxpayers should pay the taxes due under the law. Both sides believe that taxpayers should refrain from contrived behaviour to reduce their tax liabilities, and all taxpayers should be treated impartially. That is why the Government’s record is one of taking domestic and international action to tackle tax avoidance.
I will set out details of that action, but first I want to address another issue. The shadow Chancellor’s approach has generated more heat than light, and often reveals a complete misunderstanding of how the corporation tax system works. Let me take this opportunity to explain to the House how it does, in fact, work.
The independent Institute for Fiscal Studies, in a paper it published last week, puts it well:
“The current tax rules are not designed to tax the profits from UK sales. They’re certainly not designed to tax either revenue or sales generated in the UK. They are instead designed to tax that part of a firm’s profit that arises from value created in the UK. That is the principle underlying all corporate tax regimes across the OECD.”
I make that point because it is fundamental to understanding the tax we are entitled to receive from multinational companies. It is not a point that the shadow Chancellor appears to have grasped.
Let me give an example of why this matters, and it is similar to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood). The UK is home to one of the most successful video games sectors in the world. Would it be fair for a firm to design a game here, develop it here and take the risks here, but to go on to sell it overseas and then have to pay corporation tax on all that activity in the country in which it makes the final sale, and not in the UK? The current international tax arrangements are clear that such profits are taxed in the UK—the place of economic activity—rather than in the place where the sales are made. That is the internationally agreed and internationally applied concept of corporation tax. That is the law that HMRC applies. Quoting numbers to do with revenues or profits from sales, as opposed to activities, demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the tax system works, or—and this is worse—an understanding of the way the tax system works, but the hope that those following these debates do not.
John McDonnell
Is the Minister saying that Google employs 2,300 staff in this country on an average salary of £160,000, and they cannot be defined as involved in economic activity or as adding any value? What are they doing? Playing cards all the time? Are they not actually involved in economic activity—this sizable proportion of the Google workforce?
Mr Gauke
The point I am making is that the shadow Chancellor goes around quoting numbers based on profits from sales. To be fair, he went through the methodology carefully in the House today, but that methodology appears to be based on a complete misunderstanding of how the tax system works.
Rachel Reeves
I do not misunderstand how the corporation tax system is applied, but without information from HMRC, and without publication of the deal, it is difficult to know exactly how much tax Google should be paying. That is why we are seeking answers. Also, there have been $8 billion of royalty payments to Bermuda. Does the hon. Gentleman really think that that is where the economic activity is and where the value is being added?
Mr Gauke
I will deal directly with the issue of transparency in a moment.
On the issue of how our international tax system works, I have explained that it is based on economic activity. However, I would be the first to say that that international tax system needs to be brought into the modern world. That is the very reason why the UK has led the way on the base erosion and profit-shifting process. We should also be aware that there are particular issues with the US tax system, which is failing to tax intellectual property developed in the US in the way that it should.
I gave the example of video games companies. However, I recognise that there are many cases that are much more complex, and where it is not so easy to identify where the economic activity takes place. There is an issue about where multinational companies allocate their profits and where they identify economic activity as taking place. There is a need to address that, which is why we need tax rules that genuinely reflect where economic activity takes place, to ensure that profits are aligned with it. However, that is a very different matter from making big claims about profits from sales and saying that those sales profits have to be taxed where the sales take place. That is the misunderstanding I wish to address.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
The Minister is right, of course, that these issues are sometimes very complicated. However, sometimes there are loopholes that are exploited. Will he identify some of the loopholes closed by this Government that were opened by the previous Labour Government?
Mr Gauke
There is a whole host I could draw attention to, but in the interests of time, I will not run through that lengthy list. I have it here, and there are quite a number of cases—there are 40 I can identify straightaway—where there were loopholes, and we have tried to address that.
The diverted profits tax—I will come back to this again in detail in a moment—is designed to ensure that, where companies divert their profits away from the UK, and where the economic activity is happening in the UK, we get some of the tax yield.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
The difficulty with the economic activity test the Minister talks about is that it is intrinsically judgmental, and that gives us many of the issues that we try to grapple with. The test came in in the 1920s, way before the internet. Might it not be a way forward to move more towards taxing sales and, if necessary, dividends, with less on corporation tax, which would take these judgments away?
Mr Gauke
The first point to make is that this is a debate on the operation of the tax law as it stands, not on how people might want it to be, and to be fair to HMRC, it can only collect the tax that is due under the law as it stands, not as how people might want it to be. On reform of this area, there is no reason why we should not debate these matters. However, with regard to a move towards taxing profits on the basis of sales—there is a perfectly respectable case for reform in that direction—I would be worried about the impact on, for example, the UK’s creative and scientific sectors. I have mentioned the video games sector, and one could also look at pharmaceuticals. There are a number of areas where the UK—businesses in our constituencies—would lose out in those circumstances, so I would be a little wary about it.
Joan Ryan
May I bring the Minister back to the fundamental point about transparency? It would make this debate much easier and more useful if he published the details of this deal in full so that we can be sure that we are not talking about mates’ rates and a special tax loophole for Google.
Mr Gauke
I will come on to transparency, but let me first return to this Government’s record on changing domestic law and leading the way in updating the international system.
This Government have led internationally on the G20 and OECD base erosion and profit-shifting project, making the international tax rules fit for the 21st century. My right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in particular, took on highly prominent roles in initiating those discussions and taking them forward through the G20 and the OECD. The outcome will be to level the playing field among businesses, give tax authorities more effective tools to tackle aggressive planning, and help us better align the location of taxable profits with the location of economic activities and value creation. This is a major step forward in addressing the underlying causes of aggressive tax avoidance.
We have been at the forefront of implementing this agenda, acting swiftly to change the rules on hybrid mismatches and country-by-country reporting. Because we consider it important not to rely solely on international rules, we have also legislated domestically to introduce a world-leading measure to address the contrived shifting of profit from this country—the diverted profits tax. The diverted profits tax targets companies that divert profits from the UK, principally those with substantial activities in the UK who are trying to avoid creating a UK permanent establishment. Under our rules, those companies either declare the correct amount of profits in the UK and pay the full amount of corporation tax on them, or risk being charged a higher amount of diverted profits tax at a rate of 25%. By the end of this Parliament, the diverted profits tax will raise an extra £1.3 billion, both directly and as a result of associated behavioural changes. The tax is already having that effect, and multinationals will pay more corporation tax as a result.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Of course, the diverted profits tax was referred to as the Google tax. My hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor has alleged that under the terms of the deal Google will not pay a penny. Is he right about that?
Mr Gauke
The purpose of the diverted profits tax, which came into effect in April, is to ensure that companies stop diverting their profits and pay corporation tax like everybody else. I repeat that I cannot talk about the Google case beyond information that is in the public domain, but if this tax is effective in driving companies to stop diverting their profits, it is a success.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Minister refers to the Government’s record over the past Parliament and this one, but he has not mentioned the changes to the controlled foreign companies rules, which favoured a number of companies at the expense of the Exchequer and, in net terms, at the much greater expense of exchequers in developing countries.
Robert Jenrick
The Minister is making a very important point about the diverted profits tax. It is important that Members on both sides of the House recognise that this extremely important development was brought in by this Government, and that it is not correct to say that Labour Members supported it, because at the time, a year ago, their position was that it was not wise to bring it in until the BEPS process was completed, which it still is not. Had we taken the advice of the then shadow Chancellor and shadow Chief Secretary, there would be no diverted profits tax, and the points made by Labour Members would be irrelevant.
Mr Gauke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who reminds the House of an important point. When we brought in the diverted profits tax, the intention was clearly to make sure that we got more money being paid in corporation tax. We want to stop companies diverting their profits out of the UK, and we are leading the way in bringing forward legislation on this.
Let me address the shadow Chancellor’s point about resources for HMRC. We have invested heavily in HMRC’s ability to strengthen its anti-evasion and compliance activity, including through extra funding and hiring professionals whose area of expertise is multinational companies. For example, contrary to the impression that he gave, the number of people working in HMRC’s large business directorate has gone up, since it was formed in 2014, from 2,000 to 2,600 people. We believe in competitive taxes—that is why we have cut our rate of corporation tax so that it is the lowest in the G7—but we also believe in making sure that those taxes are paid.
I turn to the issue of transparency raised by several hon. Members. Taxpayer confidentiality is a fundamentally important principle of our tax system, as in the tax systems of every other major economy. We hear complaints that HMRC is not disclosing full details of the settlement. HMRC is prevented by law from disclosing taxpayer information. The resolution of tax disputes, however, is subject to full external scrutiny by the independent National Audit Office, which has reviewed how tax inquiries are concluded by HMRC. In 2012, it appointed a retired High Court judge, Sir Andrew Park, to investigate HMRC’s large business settlement process. Sir Andrew concluded that all the settlements he scrutinised
“were reasonable and the overall outcome for the Exchequer was good.”
I do wish that those who are so keen to accuse HMRC and its staff of sweetheart deals were as keen to look at what happens where independent scrutiny occurs in order to see that in fact there are no sweetheart deals. HMRC introduced—
Helen Goodman
I am grateful to the Minister, who is doing his best in a difficult situation. However, Ministers are not barred by law from publishing the minutes of meetings that they have, so could he now publish the minutes of all 25 meetings that Ministers have had with Google?
Mr Gauke
We have a very open and transparent arrangement for disclosure of meetings. I am very clear that when it comes to determining the tax liability of a company such as Google—or, indeed, any other taxpayer in this country—there is no ministerial involvement. HMRC is entirely operationally independent. There is no ministerial interference in such areas, and no suggestion that there would be. When it comes to determining the tax bill of any taxpayer, it is a matter of HMRC enforcing the law; it is not for ministerial involvement. HMRC introduced new governance arrangements for significant tax disputes in 2012 to provide even greater transparency, scrutiny and accountability. They included the appointment of a tax assurance commissioner to ensure that there is clear separation between those who negotiate and those who approve settlements. The tax assurance commissioner oversees the process and publishes an annual report on his work.
Let me be absolutely clear. There are no sweetheart deals, and there is no special treatment for large businesses. HMRC resolves disputes by agreement only if the business agrees to pay the full amount of tax, penalties and interest. Otherwise, it is a matter for the courts—an arena in which HMRC has a strong track record of fighting and winning.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for his assurance that there are no sweetheart deals, but if the process is so independent and Ministers are so far removed from it, how can he give us that assurance? Similarly, how was the Chancellor able to hail the deal as a major success?
Mr Gauke
We have in place strong governance. The NAO has looked in the past at settlements when accusations have been made of sweetheart deals, and those accusations have been dismissed. It is very clear that HMRC’s remit is to get the tax that is due under the law, and no one has ever produced a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise; they have merely displayed a prejudice against HMRC staff and a tendency to insult them.
Several hon. Members rose—
Chris Philp
Does the Minister agree that the reason why this announcement is welcome is that we collected £130 million of tax from Google, while Labour collected nothing?
Mr Gauke
I must press on. Tax avoidance is a global issue, which requires global solutions. Fruitful partnerships with other countries on the matter are part of the reason why the Government have been at the forefront of efforts to increase tax transparency. That appeared last year in the Conservative party manifesto, in which we pledged to
“review the implementation of the new international country-by-country tax reporting rules and consider the case for making this information publicly available on a multilateral basis.”
The Government are dedicated to increasing tax transparency, and we have already taken action. Just last week, the UK signed an agreement with 30 other tax administrations to share country-by-country reports from next year. We want such agreements so that information can be made public, as we spelled out in our manifesto. We will continue to lead any multilateral debates on tax transparency, as we have done in so many areas of international tax avoidance.
Reforming the international and domestic rules, investing in HMRC’s capacity and leading the way on global tax transparency—those actions were taken by this Government, but were sadly lacking during 13 years of Labour. The result of those actions has been £130 million to the Exchequer from Google, on top of the tax already paid. Under Labour, that sum was next to nothing. That is testament to the importance we have given to tackling the tax risks posed by multinational enterprises. Last month’s announcement represents an important result of our actions on the matter, and I assure hon. Members that we will continue to work hard on that agenda over the coming years, to give the Exchequer more money to fund the public services that we rely on. I urge the House to support the Government amendment.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I agree entirely. The Minister talks about the work done by the Public Accounts Committee. The law is not a complete ass. I do not believe that. When the National Audit Office looked at, I think, 10 cases—I will be corrected if I am wrong—it found three where HMRC had not abided by its own rules. Every time something like this happens, it damages British jobs and British businesses—nobody else. We have definite proof that a sweetheart deal was entered into with Goldman Sachs.
Dame Margaret Hodge
No. With the greatest respect, those are not the facts. The judge looked at five cases. The NAO looked at 10 cases and found in three of them that HMRC had not abided by its own rules.
The reason the Chancellor and his team do not get it is the people they talk to about tax. A small army of tax professionals and multinational companies are the only people with whom they converse. I have to say to the Minister that there is a difference between good working relationships, which I applaud, and undue influence and preferential treatment, which I do not. Talking to stakeholders is a good thing. Being captured by stakeholders is a bad thing.
We just have to look at the evidence—and not just the 25 meetings held with Google. If we look at the Tax Professionals Forum, its members are KPMG, Ernst and Young, Grant Thornton and so on. There is nobody from any of the tax campaigning organisations. There is nobody from any of the charities and no academic with a different view. Ernst and Young made £250 million in recent years by advising Google, Apple, Facebook and Amazon.
Let us look at what the Minister has done. He appointed David Heaton from Baker Tilly to the Government’s advisory panel on the general anti-abuse rule, which was supposed to look at closing loopholes. That particular gentleman was captured on video describing
“ways to keep the money out of the Chancellor’s grubby hands”.
Let us look at what happened to Dave Hartnett—within six months he was going to work at HSBC and within a year he was going to work at Deloitte. Let us look at Edward Troup, who is now our commissioner on taxation. He wrote in the Financial Times that “Taxation is legalised extortion.” This is a small bunch of people who all have the same interests.
I want to make two other brief points. The Government say they want companies to pay proper tax, but the Government are obsessed with tax competition. That means far from tackling tax havens and so on, they are trying to make the UK an alternative best tax haven in the world. We only have to look at three changes the Government brought through on the control of foreign company rules, Eurobonds and the infamous patent box tax relief to see that that is right.
We do not know whether the Google settlement is fair, because under the existing law—the Minister is right—we cannot see it. I personally do not accept that HMRC properly challenged Google on the evidence the Public Accounts Committee collected, which demonstrated that it engages in economic activity here in the UK. I personally do not think the whistleblowers were listened to properly. Google does sell here. It does complete sales here. It does research and development here. Its economic activity is here. What on earth is that massive complex in King’s Cross for if not to undertake economic activity?
I have to say to the Minister that he has lost the argument on transparency. He ought to cave in gracefully and open up the books of these multinational companies so we can restore confidence.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. As someone who represents a constituency containing thousands of business, of all shapes and sizes, many of which feed into the national supply chain, I wish to say at the outset that I am very proud of the role that not just my constituency, but this country plays, with many of our leading industries leading the way globally. I want this country to be a good place to do business and to set up a business, and to continue to lead the world with competitive tax rates.
This debate is actually about fairness and transparency. To follow up something that the hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) said, the fact is that the Minister could not tell us last week what effective tax rate Google would be paying. I can tell him what the effective tax rate is for businesses in my constituency—what rate of corporation tax they will be paying—so why is it so difficult for Google, a multinational giant, to be transparent with the public about the rate of tax it is paying?
Mr Gauke
Just to be clear, the statutory rate is 20% and that applies to everybody. There are businesses that will have a lower effective rate, entirely lawfully and in accordance with the spirit of the law, because, for example, they make use of capital allowances or they might have losses that they are making use of. Someone having an effective rate below the statutory rate does not mean that they are conducting avoidance activity.
Wes Streeting
That is a fair point, but of course many tax experts have estimated that Google is paying an effective tax rate of 3%. If that is not the case, we need to see the numbers that give us that assurance. We do not doubt the difficulties here. In an increasingly globalised world, where intellectual property and the growth of internet companies makes this more important in the debate about tax, these are difficult issues to grasp, but there is no hint of fairness or transparency about this deal, and that is what we are seeking with this debate.
We would have more confidence if there had been consistent messages on this issue from both the Government and Google. On 23 January, the Tory Treasury Twitter account—not the most accurate of sources—claimed that the
“Google tax bill is for years 2005-2011, almost all under Labour”.
Yet Google Ltd’s account for the period ended 30 June 2015 reported
“a liability to HMRC of £130 million in respect of additional taxes and interest due for prior accounting periods and the current accounting period.”
The Minister says that there has been no sweetheart deal, but, as I asked him earlier, how can he give us that assurance if he has not seen the deal and is as far removed from it as he says. The Chancellor said it was a “major success”. How can he laud it as a major success if he is not close enough to the deal? If it is such a major success, why did the Prime Minister in Downing Street run so far away from that claim? Why has the Financial Secretary to the Treasury not once in recent weeks stood by his Chancellor in saying that this deal is a major success? I believe that it is because he knows that it is nothing of the sort, and that this Government look deeply out of touch with the public.
Labour were accused of attacking HMRC staff. The fact is that HMRC has a responsibility to apply tax law. It has a duty to go for the full rate of tax due, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) pointed out, it has not always applied that duty. I am sure that, following the work of the Treasury Committee and the Public Accounts Committee, we will find that the issue at HMRC is to do with resourcing and extra teams and whether there are the people and the capacity to pursue not just the current claims and outstanding tax, but the historical backlog that exists as well.
Also of concern is the fact that Google itself has made some rather odd claims. On the one hand, we see senior Google executives writing to the newspapers about how great the deal is and how they have stood by their obligations, while, on the other, they are committing to paying more tax in the future. What is the reality? Is it that Google is paying the tax liability that is due; that it has somehow got away with it and plans to pay more in the future; or that it sees tax as a means of charity towards the state and it is willing to prop up the Treasury coffers a bit more generously in the future? Whatever the reality, there is deep inconsistency in the messages from the Government and Google.
We should look at the comments recently made by the Mayor of London who went as far as to suggest that finance directors have a fiduciary duty to minimise tax exposure. That cannot possibly be the case. If the Mayor of London looked at the duties under the Companies Act 2006, he would see that they also have to make reference to
“the likely consequences of any decisions in the long term…the company’s business relationships with suppliers, customers and others”—
and—
“the impact of the company’s operations on the community and the environment”.
There is a problem with the ethos of those on the Conservative Benches. Many of them see tax as a form of theft, whereas we see it as a civic responsibility and duty and as a means of creating a more civilised society. I want businesses in my constituency to pay their fair share of tax, and indeed they do. It is not unreasonable to expect a multinational company such as Google to do the same. The Government need to do much more to ensure that there is transparency for all such companies in all of the jurisdictions in which they operate.
HMRC and Google (Settlement)
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a statement on the settlement reached between HMRC and Google.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I am proud of the work the Government have done to make our tax system internationally competitive, but also to make sure that those taxes are paid. Time and again, we have taken the lead, domestically and internationally, when it comes to getting international companies to pay their fair share of tax. This is the Government who, working through the G20 and OECD, led on the base erosion and profit shifting project—BEPS—making the international tax rules fit for the 21st century. This is the Government who introduced a diverted profits tax to address the contrived movement of profit out of the country, so that profits from UK activities are taxed in the UK. And this is the Government who have invested heavily in HMRC to strengthen its compliance activity, which has allowed HMRC to secure around £100 billion in additional compliance yield over the last Parliament, including more than £38 billion from big businesses.
We have competitive taxes—that is why we have cut our rate of corporation tax so that it is the lowest in the G7—but we are also making sure those taxes are paid, reforming the international tax rules, introducing a diverted profits tax and investing in HMRC’s capacity. That is action taken by this Government that was sadly lacking in 13 years of Labour rule.
The statement made by Google at the end of last week is solid evidence that companies are changing their models and reviewing their structures because we have strengthened the rules. The statement comes at the conclusion of a lengthy inquiry by HMRC. The tax that individuals and companies pay is collected by HMRC enforcing the law, not politicians who are, rightly, not engaged in or informed of particular cases. I am therefore unable to go into the details of the inquiry’s conclusion beyond those made public at the end of last week. I would point out, however, that the National Audit Office examined the HMRC settlement process in 2012 and examined specific settlements. In all cases, the NAO concluded that HMRC obtained a reasonable settlement for the Exchequer. It also made recommendations on the process by which HMRC should operate when reaching a settlement—recommendations that have been implemented.
It might be helpful to the House if I reiterate what the law is and how the corporation tax rate works, both in the United Kingdom and around the world. The first thing to note is that corporation tax is charged on profits, not on turnover. Equally important, corporation tax is not calculated on the basis of profits attributed to sales in the United Kingdom, but to economic activity and assets located in the United Kingdom. To illustrate my point, imagine a UK company—a car manufacturer, for instance—manufactures its vehicles in the United Kingdom, but half its profits come from sales in the United States. The law as it stands in the UK, as elsewhere, would mean that those profits would be taxed in the United Kingdom, the place of activity, and not the United States, the place of sales.
Ever since 2010, we have been engaged in reforming the tax system both domestically and internationally. Government action is levelling the playing field among businesses, giving worldwide tax authorities more effective tools to tackle aggressive tax planning and helping us to better align the location of taxable profits with the location of economic activity. We are incentivising businesses to do the right thing and come to the table early. Last week’s announcement represents an important result of those actions. I can assure hon. Members that we will continue to tackle the tax risks posed by multinational companies over the coming years, giving the Exchequer more money to fund the public services we all rely on.
John McDonnell
I thank the Minister for his statement. However, many will feel it is a display of disrespect to this House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer confirmed the deal with a tweet over the weekend, but has refused to come here today personally to make a statement.
I pay tribute to the former and current Chairs of the Public Accounts Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), as well as all the campaigners for tax justice who have forced this issue on to the agenda. The Chancellor has managed to create an unlikely alliance between myself, the Sun newspaper, the Mayor of London and, according to reports, even No. 10 this morning. All of us think this deal is not the “major success” the Chancellor claimed at the weekend.
The statement offered today has left a number of questions unanswered, which I turn to now. Does the Minister not agree that it is important in our tax system that everybody is treated equally and fairly, whether they be large multibillion-pound corporations or small businesses? In that respect, independent experts have suggested that the effective tax rate faced by Google is now about 3%, despite estimated profits of £1 billion in 2014 alone. Will the Minister confirm whether this is the effective tax rate faced by Google over the past 10 years? In the interests of openness and transparency, will he now publish details of the deal and how it was reached? Will the Minister confirm that Google is not changing the company structures that enabled this avoidance to take place over the past decade? Are the Government not concerned that the agreement creates a precedent for future deals with large technology corporations, such as Facebook and Amazon? Will the Minister assure us that this deal does not undermine international co-operation on tax avoidance, such as the OECD base erosion and profit shifting scheme that the Chancellor once supported?
I also ask the Minister, once more, to halt the programme of HMRC staffing cuts, which is undermining morale and removing the very staff with the collective experience and expertise in collecting these taxes. Finally, will he address a confusion that seems to have arisen? Does he agree with the Chancellor, who thinks the deal was a major success; with the Prime Minister’s Office, which said this morning it was only a step forward; or with the Mayor of London, who described it as derisory?
Mr Gauke
I welcome the progress the Government have made over the past six years in ensuring that large companies pay more tax. At a time when we have been cutting the rate of corporation tax, corporation tax receipts, excluding North sea oil, have remained buoyant, partly because we have been more effective than ever at collecting tax from large companies. HMRC’s operational capability in this area has been strengthened—by the way, HMRC staff numbers are going up, not down, this year.
The shadow Chancellor mentioned the 3% figure. That is the very reason I drew attention to how corporation tax is worked out. It is worked out on the basis not of sales profits in a country, but of the economic activity and assets held in a country, and there would be severe dangers to moving in the direction of basing it on sales profits. He is right that every taxpayer should be treated fairly and has to pay the rate determined by the law; there is no lower, special rate for Google or any other taxpayer in this country.
We are collecting more tax, which is evidence of the steps we have taken, in both the BEPS process and the diverted profits tax, forcing companies to change their behaviour. That should be welcomed around the House. The real threat to collecting tax revenue from big businesses would be the anti-business policies of the Labour party.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Last week, the Treasury Select Committee agreed the terms of reference for an inquiry into, among other things, problems with the corporate tax base. Does the Minister agree that Google might be a symptom but is probably not the cause of these problems; that those lie with the immense complexity of the tax system, which is rendered more problematic by the globalisation of tax liability; and that therefore fundamental reform of the corporate tax base probably now needs to be considered?
Mr Gauke
My right hon. Friend raises an important point. Our international tax system is based largely on that set up in the 1920s, but the world has moved on and the way multinational companies operate has changed significantly. That is why, some years ago, led by my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, we encouraged the OECD to establish the BEPS project. We are now seeing the first signs that that is working—that companies are changing their behaviour and the tax system is becoming better suited to the modern world.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
First, the diverted profits tax, set at 25%, came into effect last April. May we have the Minister’s assurance that the Google deal does not cover any of the period when diverted profits tax should have applied? Secondly, the rules on disclosed evasion are clear: tax should be paid at 100%, plus interest, plus a 30% penalty. May we have his assurance that that was rightly not applied in this case? Finally, given the difficulty the Netherlands got into with the Starbucks deal and Luxembourg got into with the Fiat deal, when the Commission insisted they recoup between €20 million and €30 million extra, should the Google deal not be put to Commissioner Vestager to ensure that it complies with state aid rules?
Mr Gauke
The United Kingdom does not engage in special deals with any taxpayer. When accusations to that effect were made before, Sir Andrew Park, a retired High Court judge, investigated them on behalf of the National Audit Office and concluded that in every case he had investigated the settlement was reasonable and the overall effect of the arrangements was good. For the very reasons I set out, I cannot comment on the individual matter beyond what is in the public domain. I do believe that there is an important principle here—that tax should be collected on the basis of the law, and that a Department that is independent from Ministers should be able to make the assessment of the right level of tax due under the law without politicians interfering in operational matters. I hope that that has the support of Members of all parties.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend assure me that some investigation will be made into how HMRC managed to allow this to go on for such a long period of time? Given that this started under the last Government and it has taken this Government to tackle the issue and bring it to book, will my hon. Friend help me to understand what lessons should be learned?
Mr Gauke
The information is in the public domain that HMRC launched an inquiry into the tax affairs of Google in 2009. This is a complex matter, but I am pleased that that inquiry has reached a conclusion. It would be fair to say that the progress made on bringing in a diverted profits tax and the reforms involved in the base erosion and profit shifting project appear to represent a shift in the behaviour of a number of companies, which is to be welcomed.
Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
I am sure that my other colleagues on the Public Accounts Committee will be looking forward to hearing from Google and HMRC about this deal. The inquiry into the tax situation that many of these companies seem to be applying to what they should pay in a fair way to the UK public purse was started under Labour, and yes, it continued over the last five years, but last year, in the Budget before the general election, the Chancellor said that he would not tolerate this behaviour, declaring:
“Let the message go out”—[Official Report, 18 March 2015; Vol. 594, c. 772.]
and claiming that there would be an end to this sort of play. Given the £24 billion-worth of UK revenues over this period, experts have said that Google should have paid taxes of almost £2 billion, so does £130 million really meet the test of no tolerance?
Mr Gauke
I want to address this point and engage seriously with Members on the calculations that we have seen in the press, suggesting some of these very large numbers. As far as I can see, those calculations are based on looking at the profits attributed to the sales in the United Kingdom, and there is a very important distinction between profits attributed to sales versus profits attributed to economic activity and assets. The UK is a country that is very creative. We have a very strong scientific base. As a country, much economic activity goes on here that is involved in then exporting goods and services, and the profits from those exports should, I believe, be taxed in the UK where the economic activity occurs, not in the countries where the sales may occur. If we accept that principle, it does, I have to say, rather discredit the claims of a 3% tax rate.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
Although we fully appreciate in the House that the international rules are ferociously complex and that there can sometimes be variations in how they can be interpreted, will my hon. Friend please assure the House one way or the other whether Google has actually broken any laws that were in place between 2005 and 2011—or is this just an outcome of negotiations?
Mr Gauke
Again, I cannot comment on that—in large part because I am not privy to information that is not in the public domain—but I can say that an inquiry has been in place for some years and that it has now reached a conclusion. The consequence of the conclusion of that inquiry is, as Google has stated, that an additional £130 million is being paid to the Exchequer. Google has also made it clear that it has made changes in how it structures some of its arrangements, and that will obviously have an implication for future tax liabilities.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Why, on the one hand, should Italy put in a claim for £1 billion from Google while Britain, on the other hand, is prepared to settle for a paltry £130 million? It is not very good for Cameron, is it?
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
No one should underestimate the complex nature of trying to tax globally active corporations such as this. It is speculation to talk in terms of the numbers that have been bandied around. However, in view of the Government’s desire to get an international arrangement in place, can the Minister tell us today whether he believes this deal sets some sort of precedent, or is it just a one-off arrangement?
Mr Gauke
The important point to note is that the individual tax affairs depend on the application of the facts in the case; as I have mentioned a number of times, it depends on the economic activity and assets that are held in the UK, or indeed other jurisdictions. But I do think this signifies that companies are looking at their tax arrangements and there is a closer alignment between tax and economic activity, which I certainly welcome. That is what the BEPS—base erosion and profit shifting—process is designed to achieve, and that is what the UK Government have been advocating for some years now, and I believe we are making progress on that.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
The reality is that the practice of companies organising their business over multiple jurisdictions to minimise their tax liability is not new, and even if the diverted profits tax were to apply it would barely make a dent on Google’s real tax liability. Given that this week all our constituents and small businesses will be filing their tax returns and do not have the luxury of negotiating their own sweetheart deals, what message does the Chancellor think he is sending to those individuals and businesses by saying this paltry sum of money from Google can possibly be considered, as he says, a major success? Does this now show how complacent Ministers are?
Mr Gauke
All businesses have to pay tax under the law. It is under this Government that we have seen the diverted profits tax brought in, and it is under this Government that we are seeing the BEPS process change the behaviour of companies. We did not see any of this from the last Labour Government, and all we end up with is unsubstantiated claims about sweetheart deals, insulting HMRC staff, who have worked for years to ensure that Google and other companies pay the tax due under the law.
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that in the mad world of corporation tax on international companies this sum of money is at once derisory, substantial, lawful and completely unacceptable to the public, and will he therefore also agree that it is time for a complete overhaul of the corporate tax system?
Mr Gauke
The point I would make is that this is a highly complex area, but there is a need for international co-operation in it, which is why we instigated the OECD looking at this as part of the BEPS process. That process has come forward with a number of recommendations. We have already legislated for two of those recommendations. There is a third that we are specifically looking at and consulting upon in terms of interest deductibility. It is right that we bring the international tax system up to date to reflect the way multinational companies are working. This has been left for too long; we are taking action.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Does the Minister recognise that people’s anger is very legitimate and even more justifiable given that Google is effectively freeriding on publicly funded infrastructure, not least the £1.2 billion the Government have invested in superfast broadband, and may I urge him again to make sure these calculations are put in the public domain so people can see how the figures are arrived at?
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)
As the former Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne), left that well-known note stating, “I am afraid there is no money,” does my hon. Friend agree that this is evidence that not only did the former Labour Government spend too much of our money, but they did not collect appropriate taxes?
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
The problem is that the Conservatives have form when it comes to arranging mates’ rates for taxation. They gave a massive tax cut to big City banks, particularly in relation to profits brought in from abroad. They also gave a massive tax cut to hedge funds, £25 million of which arrived in the Conservative party’s coffers last year, and now we have this deal. City banks, hedge funds and globalised corporations—the three bodies the modern Conservative party exists to serve. So let me ask the Minister: why should my constituents in Chester, who work hard and play by the rules, subsidise these big globalised corporations?
Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is the Financial Secretary to the Treasury familiar with the report from the Oxford University Centre for Business Taxation that was published a short time ago? It itemised 42 anti-tax-avoidance measures that the coalition Government put in place, including the general anti-avoidance provisions, the banking code of conduct and the diverted profit tax, which will raise an additional £34 billion between 2011 and 2020.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
I and many other Members on this side of the House have seen representatives of small businesses queueing up at our surgeries to complain about the sweetheart deals that big businesses seem to be able to get while they themselves cannot get assistance from HMRC. I wrote to the Minister to ask him to meet me to talk about small businesses, but sadly he said no. May I take this opportunity to ask him again? Please will he meet me to talk about the impact of tax on small businesses in Wirral?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the best way to help HMRC to collect more tax is for this House to pass tax laws that are clear, precise and understandable without the need to refer to tax lawyers and accountants?
Mr Gauke
My hon. Friend has set out a laudable objective. We have to recognise that the nature of international businesses is often inherently complicated, but we also have to ensure that our legal system and our tax laws are brought up to date to reflect the way in which businesses work in the 21st century.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
If any of the thousands of wonderful small businesses in this country failed to pay their taxes for 11 years, they would not be sitting negotiating with HMRC; they would be sitting down with the police. Can the Minister therefore understand the anger of small businesses and taxpayers when a quarter of calls to HMRC are not even answered? Will some of this money go into sorting that out?
Mr Gauke
First, on customer service, the hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. Taxpayers are understandably exasperated when customer service is not good enough, although I am pleased to say that at the moment the service is performing better than in any January in recent years. I stress to the hon. Gentleman and the House as a whole that it is very important that we have one tax system and fairness applied to every taxpayer. We must also recognise, however, in relation to some of the accusations, that some of the calculations that are used do not reflect the reality for particular companies. It is absolutely right that HMRC pursues all companies, even over many years, to make sure that the right amount of tax is paid.
Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)
As a journalist, I had the dubious privilege for a couple of years of breaking the story of how much tax Google had paid. With that in mind, I had to look at the international arrangements that Google also makes. Is the Minister aware of any country outside of America—other than Britain—that has a deal with Google that is as good as this one?
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
At a time when the Government expect small businesses to do tax returns four times a year, does the Minister not understand that many of those small businesses will be outraged that a firm such as Google can get off with paying no tax for 10 years and then finish up with a paltry bill that includes fines and interest? At the same time, we have a refusal by the Government to show how that sum was raised. Surely, to avoid the feeling of cynicism among many taxpayers, we should at least have some transparency about how the figure was reached.
Mr Gauke
We are determined to ensure that all businesses pay the tax that is due. May I specifically address the hon. Gentleman’s point about quarterly returns? There will be a Westminster Hall debate on that matter in 25 minutes, and the point that I shall make is that there is no requirement for quarterly returns. Businesses should keep their information digitally and send summaries of that information on a quarterly basis. That is very, very different from quarterly returns.
Several hon. Members rose—
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
When it is in the public domain that one technique used by Google, Facebook and others is the so-called double Irish arrangement, by which profits in the first instance leave the UK and go to Ireland, is there not more that we can do with our European partners to use state aid rules on countries such as Ireland and Luxembourg, which undermine our tax base in that way?
Mr Gauke
My hon. Friend raises an important point. There is a need for international co-operation at an OECD level, which is the principal focus, and at an EU level. He will be aware of action that the European Commission has taken in respect of other member states that have had concerns about state aid.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Minister says that this deal does not amount to a 3% tax rate for Google, so for the sake of public confidence will he say what the actual tax rate is?
Mr Gauke
No—[Laughter.] That is because of taxpayer confidentiality. The point that I was trying to make was that the rate cannot be calculated by looking at profits from sales in the United Kingdom. The tax rate is currently 20%, and that applies to everybody, but the effective tax rate depends on the particular circumstances of any business.
Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that it is worth remembering that this matter has been outstanding not for one year or five years, but since the middle of the previous Labour Government, who failed to do anything about it? It is this Government who have taken effective action to collect these tax receipts. The Opposition should check their facts; perhaps they could google them.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
The deadline for submission of self-assessment tax returns is in six days’ time, on 31 January. What consideration has the Minister given to reaching deals, victorious or otherwise, with any of my self-employed constituents who miss that deadline?
Mr Gauke
Let me return to this case. There has been a lengthy inquiry by HMRC into the affairs of Google. That inquiry has now come to an end and reached a conclusion. There is nothing to suggest that anything other than the proper enforcement of the law as it stands has led the way to this particular conclusion.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
The Minister has said much about bringing our tax system up to date for the 21st century and about closing the tax gap, which I welcome. None the less, we have in our business rates system, a tax regime that is hopelessly out of date, and the cross-party Business, Innovation and Skills Committee called for fundamental reform of it under the previous Government. May I urge him to be as ambitious as possible in that reform so that we can close the gap between online businesses and the bricks and mortar businesses on our high streets?
Mr Gauke
As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Government are reviewing the business rates system, and will report shortly. As far as my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Prime Minister are concerned—and as the Chancellor has made clear—we are looking to do that in a fiscally neutral way, and we have received many representations on that point.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
Does the Minister not accept that this deal with Google, which most of us believe to involve a corporation tax rate of less than 3%, simply encourages tax avoidance by companies? If the issue was the amount of economic activity and assets held by Google in the UK, why are the Government not prepared to test that in the courts if necessary, and call its bluff?
Mr Gauke
HMRC has been conducting an inquiry in this specific case for a number of years, and has reached the conclusion that it is satisfied with the position that Google has reached. As for the additional payment, it is based on the facts that HMRC has seen, and on the detailed inquiry and exhaustive work that it has undertaken over many years, not numbers drawn up on the back of an envelope.
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
Hon. Members on both sides of the House share the public’s anger that Google has been able to get away with paying so little tax for so long, and many of them also share the feeling that this deal is unsatisfactory, but will the Minister confirm that the £130 million that the Government have extracted from Google is precisely £130 million more than the Labour Government ever got from it?
Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Mr Speaker:
“O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us/
To see oursels as ithers see us!”
I agree with the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that this will be seen by many small businesses the length and breadth of the country as unfair and not understandable. Surely, part of the problem, as a number of Members have said, is the sheer complexity of the system. Will the Government commit themselves to addressing that matter?
Mr Gauke
We always look to try to find ways to simplify the tax system. I would make the point that if a company operates in many jurisdictions, its tax affairs are inherently more complex than if it existed in just one country, but the Government are determined to ensure that where the economic activity occurs in the United Kingdom, we tax it in the United Kingdom.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Everyone wants business to pay its fair share of tax, and most people will welcome the additional £130 million of tax revenue to fund important services, but many will wonder, given that the period of the settlement covers 2005 to 2011, what other multinational tax bills are out there that have still not been settled and what, if anything, the Labour party did in government to highlight those questions?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
May I gently chide the Minister, particularly given his last remark? Will he acknowledge the work of the cross-party Public Accounts Committee in the last Parliament? Its campaign on fair taxes by multinational companies was chaired by a Labour MP, the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge)?
Mr Gauke
There has been a shift in public opinion in recent years, and the pressure on companies to pay the tax that is due under the law is greater than ever before. I welcome that, and I welcome that change in public opinion, but it is the measures taken by this Government that mean that we are getting additional sums from large companies, as has been demonstrated in the past couple of days.
Mr Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
Following the successful Google settlement, will the Minister confirm that the Government will continue to work with our international partners and organisations such as the OECD to continue taking a lead to ensure that our tax laws are complied with—action that Labour failed to take over 13 years?
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister rise above the political bickering for a moment and, with Opposition Front Benchers, look at the real problem? These massive global companies are extremely clever. With great respect to the people at HMRC, who work so hard, those companies can hire the best accountants, the best tax experts and the highest paid lawyers. However we change the law, they will find a way around it. In Europe and in this country, we have to look at this in a much more sophisticated way.
Mr Gauke
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but he should not be quite so defeatist. If he looks at what happened over the previous Parliament, he will see that HMRC’s large business team brought in £38 billion in additional tax as a consequence of their intervention. The UK has a reputation as somewhere with competitive tax rates but where taxes do have to be paid. That is a reputation that we should all seek to maintain.
Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)
Although £130 million might seem low for a business as large as Google, is not the reality that the Revenue cannot do as much to collect back-taxes as we would like it to, because they come from a significantly more lax era? This morning one tax expert described the situation under the previous Labour Government thus: “Everything was above board, and the board was set at floor level.” Under this Government, the diverted profits tax gives us the opportunity to change the landscape, but is there not a concern that letting Google off paying the diverted profits tax suggests that the Revenue will find this significantly more complex to implement than we would like? What more can we do to give the Revenue the support it needs to apply that evenly and to all?
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
To clarify the misinformation, under the law of the land what is Google’s theoretical tax liability?
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Human nature and ingenuity being what they are, from the moment taxes were invented there has always been a difference between the tax that Governments expect to receive and the tax that is actually paid—that is known as the tax gap. Will the Minister explain to the House in what direction the tax gap has been going since we came to office in 2010?
Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
Will the Minister comment on the effectiveness of the OECD’s current BEPS proposals in responding to the globalisation of business? What would the impact have been on the situation in which we currently find ourselves with Google and HMRC had those proposals been implemented?
Mr Gauke
The hon. Lady asks a very good question. We are in the process of implementing those recommendations. The BEPS process is more closely aligning economic activity with taxing rights. That is the direction in which we believe we should go. Having led the way in getting the BEPS process started, this Government want to lead the way in implementing its recommendations.
Several hon. Members rose—
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
When the Minister makes large businesses publish their tax strategy, will he also make them publish their tax returns so that we can all see how much tax they are declaring and how they got from their cash profit to that tax bill? That would improve transparency and confidence in the system.
Mr Gauke
The United Kingdom’s position on taxpayer confidentiality is hardly unique. Indeed, it is the mainstream approach. Knowing what a company’s tax liability might be depends on a detailed understanding of the whereabouts of its assets and activities, and not all of that information would necessarily be apparent from a straight tax return. As I have said, there is greater transparency now because companies have to set out their strategies, which has never been the case before.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Minister is trying to have it both ways. These are companies, not individuals, so the confidentiality excuse does not wash with me. We know what the profits, assets and the liabilities are, because they are in the companies’ accounts. We also know that the corporation tax rate is 20%. On the basis of both those pieces of information, how much does Google actually owe the Exchequer?
Mr Gauke
The principle of taxpayer confidentiality is not new. It has existed for as long as we have had a tax system. If the hon. Gentleman wants to make a case for abandoning it, he ought to consider what the overall consequences would be for the attractiveness of the UK as a place in which to do business. Let me add that, without fully understanding the whereabouts of a company’s assets and activities, no one is in a position to make a judgment about how much tax it should pay. HMRC is able to do that, and HMRC is bringing in more money than ever.
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)
I welcome the fact that the Government have raised £130 million, but does my right hon. Friend agree that it should not have had to take five years—and, no doubt, considerable public resources—to prise that money out? Do not multinationals themselves need to change their culture?
Mr Gauke
My hon. Friend has made an important point. The way in which to change the culture of multinational companies—and, indeed, we have already started to see signs of such a change—is to take the action that we have taken in implementing the BEPS recommendations and introducing a diverted profits tax. Those are the achievements of this Government.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
I really cannot believe that the Government see this deal as a major success. Why are they so supportive of sweetheart deals for companies like Google, but so slow and reluctant to address the business rates burden on the steel industry?
Mr Gauke
As I have said, we are reviewing business rates, and, in fact, we have cut them by £1 billion in recent years. I should add that there is no sweetheart deal. HMRC does not undertake sweetheart deals. What it undertakes are thorough inquiries, and when companies accept their liabilities, those inquiries can be brought to a conclusion. However, we are ensuring that HMRC succeeds in delivering the revenue that is due under the law.
Small Businesses: Tax Reporting
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I thank all Members who participated in the debate. I was struck by its measured tone and the many sensible inquiries made. I hope to respond to as many of them as possible.
Before I do that, may I add to those words said by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Oliver Dowden) my own words of tribute to Lord Parkinson and of condolence to his family, following the announcement of his death today? I was fortunate enough to meet Cecil Parkinson a number of times in my years as a Member of Parliament and I was struck by his warmth and generosity of spirit. He will be greatly missed by both Houses of Parliament.
We have had a useful and helpful debate in which many points were raised. I am grateful for the opportunity to dispel some of the myths that I think exist with regard to the policy and to provide greater clarity where I can. This is an important policy and it is important that we get it right for small businesses. I would particularly like to thank the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise, my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who was present for much of the debate.
I would also like to thank all those who took the time to respond to the petition. I hope that as many people engage in the consultations on the reforms that HMRC will launch later this year. The Government have always been on the side of businesses that help to create long-term, sustainable economic growth. That is why we have lowered the rate of corporation tax, increased the investment allowance and helped our companies expand into new markets. We believe in competitive tax, simple tax, and tax that is paid.
Before I say a few words about what is changing and why, I would like to make clear what “Making tax digital” is not and address some of the concerns raised by businesses. First, to respond to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere at the beginning of the debate some hours ago, this transformation does not—I repeat “not”—mean four tax returns a year, but, by 2020, most businesses will be keeping track of their tax affairs digitally, updating HMRC at least quarterly via their digital tax account.
Quarterly updates will not involve the complexity of a full tax return, where the business, or its agent, has to gather together and manually input data on to an electronic or paper form and then perform various calculations. Instead, updates will be generated from digital records and, in most cases, little or no further entry of information will be needed. It will be much quicker, easier and far less burdensome than the current process. The agony of the annual tax return will be a thing of the past.
Sammy Wilson
If the information required will not be the detail required in the end-of-year tax return, what value will there be in the calculations made? If the aim is to give certainty to taxpayers about what they are likely to owe but the information is not substantial enough to work that out, what value does it have? How will that enable people to keep account of their tax affairs, as the Minister described it?
Mr Gauke
That is a fair question. The hon. Gentleman raised that point in his remarks and there is a distinction between the nature of the information provided. Whereas a full return can be complex, the update will be based on business records that are already being recorded. There will be one process for both business and tax purposes, which will involve a summary of income and expenses.
The hon. Gentleman asks what is the use of the data and how will they be helpful. First, keeping records digitally will reduce error, partly because that will be done on a more timely basis. Secondly, the data will allow HMRC to focus its attention on the small minority of small businesses that are evading their taxes, and not on those who are trying to get it right. One must also bear it in mind that the software will help taxpayers identify any errors in the information they provide. One of the key benefits permitted by a more digital approach is that errors can be spotted earlier by the taxpayers themselves.
I reassure the House that HMRC does not intend to increase interventions on the basis of quarterly updates. On the contrary: HMRC is seeking to reduce error at source and so reduce the need for interventions. It is the case that by keeping records in real time instead of processing paperwork at the year end, businesses are less likely to lose receipts or make basic accounting errors.
I confirm that the proposal applies to large businesses—it is not exclusively for smaller businesses. On whether the software will work, let me point out that there are already six free products on the market and we expect there to be more as small software firms innovate to meet business needs. Such firms are clearly keen to engage and produce new products and services—we see that in the growth of apps—and already 30,000 small businesses have downloaded free record-keeping apps suited to all varieties of devices, whether tablets or smartphones.
One point that came up repeatedly and which was made by the hon. Member for East Lothian (George Kerevan) was that we are rushing this through. Let me reassure him and others that the Major Projects Authority has examined the plans and that it views them as deliverable. However, neither the Treasury nor HMRC are complacent, and we do understand that there are challenges, and I will pick up on some of them. However, it is worth noting that this is a five-year roll-out. We are engaging in substantial consultation this year. The piloting and testing of the technology and the various processes will then follow.
Phone calls were mentioned on a number of occasions. I said in the main Chamber earlier this afternoon that HMRC’s performance in January, which is traditionally a busy month, because of the self-assessment deadline, has been at a very high level. The last number I saw, which was for last week, suggested that 89% of calls were being answered and that the average waiting time is four minutes, which, it would be fair to say, is better than the historic norm for HMRC.
It is worth pointing out that the overall £1.3 billion package of investment for HMRC will allow more of its customers—not just businesses, but individuals—to go online, thus reducing calls. In addition, HMRC gets many calls about information that will in future appear in taxpayers’ digital accounts. For example, people call to find out their reference number or to chase a refund, and digital accounts will take out a large number of those calls. As I said, call centre performance is now also much improved.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy) raised the issue of sanctions. We will consult on the sanctions that will be appropriate in a digital environment. Penalties and other sanctions will not be the same as those that apply now to end-of-year returns. We will want the new process to bed in before we turn on any sanctions. There is no plan to penalise those who try to comply. I point hon. Members to HMRC’s record on the introduction of real-time information. There was a careful and measured approach to penalising people, and only deliberate non-compliance resulted in sanctions while the system was being introduced.
A couple of hon. Members asked whether quarterly updates will be required to take account of accounting adjustments for stock and work in progress, which are currently made only once a year. Detailed issues such as the allocation of capital allowances and the counting of stock levels will be addressed through consultation. I stress that all allowances, deductions and reliefs that are currently annual will remain so. Of course, for the many businesses that use cash accounting, that is much less of an issue, but I recognise that it is an issue for some businesses. Again, for issues such as work in progress, we are not requiring information quarterly.
Concerns were raised about payment. No decision has yet been made about changing payment dates. In December, alongside the “Making tax digital” road map, we published a discussion paper on options to simplify the payment of taxes. An initial consultation will take place shortly, with a further, full consultation to take place later this year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), who does so much for the self-employed in the role he plays for the Government, raised the issue of payments following quarterly updates. Again, I stress that no decision has yet been made about changing payment dates.
Questions about how the changes will affect seasonal businesses will be addressed through this year’s consultation. Businesses trading seasonally may be due a tax refund in-year. If they update HMRC more frequently than they do now, that will allow HMRC to assess them for such a refund, so there may be a financial benefit for them. Let me also stress that the quarterly update will be based on actual information, not forecasts. I hope that that provides some reassurance.
In terms of implementation, I reassure hon. Members that we will carry out extensive testing. Roll-out to businesses will take place when the process and the design are known to work.
I touched on cash accounting earlier. About 2 million businesses operate on a cash basis and do not need to account for work in progress, stock and so on. For others, updates will provide an increasingly accurate picture through the year. However, direct taxes will remain annual taxes, so some adjustments will need to be made at the end of the year. That should, however, be less of a task than the traditional annual tax return, because much of the information will already have been pulled together.
Chris Leslie
I am trying to envisage what the Minister is discussing, because there is still quite a lot here that is open to consultation. Data on income and expenses would be supplied through these quarterly updates, but we might not necessarily be able to get rid of the annual return, which might still be necessary because of tax reliefs and so forth. [Interruption.] Yes, people could be doing these things five times a year—there would be one big final return and these updates along the way. Are we getting rid of the annual tax return or not?
Mr Gauke
The traditional annual tax return, we can get rid of. What I am saying is that, rather than starting largely from scratch and pulling all the information together, businesses that need to make adjustments at the end of the year will have already done much of that work. Now, as I say, the tax system remains an annual system, and one needs to be able to look at the year as a whole for things such as capital allowances. However, it is worth bearing it in mind that the capital expenditure of the vast majority—something like 98%—of businesses would fall within the annual investment allowance of £200,000, so that is not necessarily too much of an issue for them. However, I understand the point about work in progress.
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make the point that there is still quite a lot to consult on. Sometimes, I fear that we are criticised both for rushing things, charging in and not listening and for things being a bit vague because we are still consulting on them, and there is a certain mutually exclusive element to those criticisms. However, the sense of direction is clear, and it is right that we consult on the details.
Rob Marris
May I gently tell the Minister that the problem, rightly or wrongly, is that it has not been clear to many observers what the Government have been consulting on?
Mr Gauke
I think the information has always been out there, but we are where we are, and I am grateful to have an opportunity to set out where we are consulting. If the hon. Gentleman likes, I can set out some of the communication that has already been done. There are issues we are consulting on, but I believe that the direction is absolutely right.
The hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) asked about the cost of the proposal. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) asked about the cost to business and the publication of an impact assessment. As with any other tax measure, a detailed assessment of the impact on administrative burdens will be published alongside draft legislation, and that is expected to be in December 2016. That assessment will be informed by prior consultation of affected businesses. HMRC anticipates producing an initial draft impact assessment alongside the formal consultation process, which starts in the spring.
Sammy Wilson
Perhaps it is this very point. The Minister has told us the kind of information that will be required in the quarterly returns and the calculations that will be done. Will that give taxpayers an indication at the end of each quarter of what tax HMRC expects from them, and will it have to be paid quarterly?
Mr Gauke
As I said a moment ago, we are looking at the issue of payments, which I appreciate is a potentially vexed one. We are not rushing into that. We are consulting on it, but it is not part of the proposal announced at the autumn statement. The new arrangement will provide more information. Indeed, one benefit is that it will give a better indication to businesses of what tax they owe when it is due. That will be an advantage to businesses, which I think they will appreciate. However, we have not made any decisions on payments.
The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and other hon. Members raised the subject of broadband. I will come back to the issue of people who cannot make use of digital, but I want to respond on broadband, as it is a key point. Through the Government’s £1.7 billion investment programme, we are on track to deliver superfast broadband to 95% of premises by 2017. The Prime Minister announced at the end of last year that we are looking to implement an updated broadband universal service obligation for those not covered by the superfast plans. Industry are also set to roll out 4G mobile connectivity to 98% of UK premises well ahead of the 2017 obligation, through Ofcom’s regulatory spectrum licensing conditions.
In every walk of life, people are embracing the digital revolution. From shopping for groceries to making a GP appointment online or paying invoices at any time of day or night, millions of us benefit from digital services daily. Businesses, too, are harnessing the opportunities of the digital age to transform fundamentally their operations and the services they provide, with customers reaping the benefits. It is only right that the Government keep pace with the world around us. That is why we are seeking to transform HMRC into one of the most digitally advanced tax administrations in the world. “Making tax digital” is at the heart of those plans. At the spending review, the Chancellor announced a £1.3 billion investment in HMRC to make that vision a reality. That will see the end of the annual tax return and, in its place, the introduction of simple, secure and personalised digital tax accounts for businesses and individuals.
Importantly, the changes will deliver what businesses and individuals have told us they need. In particular, many businesses have said they want more certainty about their tax bill and do not want to wait until the end of the year, or often longer, to find out how much they have to pay. Businesses have also said they want tax returns to be more integrated into the way they run their business, rather than something done separately and many months later. The use of digital tools—accounting software or smartphone apps—will, for the first time, create that desired integration.
Businesses will be able to see in their digital account what each update means for their tax position as the year goes by. That will also make it easier for businesses to understand how much tax they owe, giving them far more certainty about their tax position and helping them to budget, invest and grow. Beyond helping businesses to get their taxes right, making tax digital will also help them to improve and develop their business. Targeted guidance and alerts will make them aware of relevant entitlements and reliefs or wider Government services to support business growth.
Apart from the modernisation of business practices, there is another important prize that we cannot ignore. Each year, around £6.5 billion of tax goes unpaid because of mistakes made by small businesses when preparing and filling in their tax returns. These reforms will improve the quality of record-keeping, reducing the likelihood of mistakes and contributing £920 million in additional revenue to the Exchequer by 2020, then £600 million a year thereafter. The alternative would be to stick to a system where taxpayers take out 18-month-old records, stare at them for a while as they try to figure out what they were doing then and tentatively use them to fill in a lengthy HMRC form, or drop on to their accountant’s desk a large carrier bag of records—
Mr Gauke
—or, indeed, a shoe box, and bear the expense of having the accountant do the job. The taxpayer then pays their final tax bill on money made up to 21 months previously. It is a system designed for a world of paper and bookkeeping, in the literal sense, and it is not tenable in the 21st century.
I do not, however, underestimate the scale of changes that making tax digital represents for businesses and their agents, in particular the transition to digital record- keeping. I also make no apologies for the scale of our ambition. With the Government and local authorities investing £1.7 billion to bring superfast broadband to over 95% of the UK by 2017, these changes are possible. As I said, the Prime Minister has announced that we are looking to implement an updated broadband universal service obligation for those not covered by the superfast plans. Equally, I acknowledge the concerns raised about the pace of the reforms. Similar concerns were raised about online filing and real-time information. However, HMRC’s impressive track record in implementing those changes speaks for itself. Working with interested parties, we can match that success.
Some have suggested that the reforms should be introduced on a voluntary basis, rather than requiring businesses to make the change. A voluntary approach would cost the same but deliver only a fraction of the benefits for business and the Exchequer. In the current fiscal environment, without the additional revenue generated by closing the tax gap, we could not have provided the £1.3 billion investment required to transform services for all taxpayers.
Some have said that it is overly ambitious to rely on digital as the primary channel. The fact is that we are going with the grain of the way small businesses are already moving. The benefits of digitisation are readily accepted by the majority of small and medium-sized organisations. While there has been plenty of debate—a lot of it online—about the challenges, I am heartened see that many businesses and their agents are already forging ahead. Already, 2 million small and medium-sized businesses are using software for their payroll and VAT.
I am, however, equally focused on ensuring there is support for those who need it. The Government have already said they will ensure that free software products are available to businesses with the most straightforward tax affairs. Some—a very small minority—will be unable to adopt digital tools due to geography, personal disability or other circumstances. In those cases, help will be provided. There is no question of forcing those who genuinely cannot go digital to do so. We will consult with business and representative bodies to understand fully who cannot get online and what support they need, and we will ensure we provide alternatives, such as telephone filing.
We want the reforms to provide the maximum benefit for business and the UK. We are already talking to a wide range of businesses, agents, software developers and professional bodies, and a wide-ranging consultation exercise will start in the spring. We are introducing the reforms gradually and not phasing them in fully until 2020 because we know how important it is to give taxpayers time to adapt. We are using volunteers to stress-test new services, so that we can be confident the new services work before they are rolled out.
If we get this right, the benefits will be considerable. We will reduce burdens on business, reduce the tax gap and bring tax administration well and truly into the digital age. These important changes will boost economic growth, so I urge hon. Members to support our reforms to make tax digital.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
5. What assessment his Department has made of the potential effect of leaving the EU on UK GDP.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The Government are fighting hard to fix aspects of our EU membership that cause so much frustration in the United Kingdom, so that we get a better deal for our country and secure our future. We are confident that the right agreement can be reached.
Emma Reynolds
Jaguar Land Rover recently announced that it will double investment in the brand-new engine plant on the outskirts of my constituency, creating hundreds and hundreds of additional jobs on top of the 1,400 already announced. Does the Minister agree that unfettered access to the single market drives this sort of investment and that if we were to walk away or sacrifice that access, those jobs and that investment could well be put at risk?
Mr Gauke
I too welcome the new jobs being created in and near the hon. Lady’s constituency by Jaguar Land Rover. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor visited that site recently. On our relationship with the European Union, the Government’s position is very clear: we want the benefits of access to the single market, but there are aspects of our relationship with the EU that can be improved. That is what we are seeking to do in our renegotiation.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Given that we had a £62 billion trade deficit with the European Union last year, and given that if we left the EU the UK would be the EU’s single biggest export market, does the Minister think we could have a free trade agreement with the EU from outside it, without handing over £19 billion a year in membership fees?
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Britain has been a significant and, in recent years, a substantial net contributor to the EU budget. For over 40 years, this has had a negative impact on UK economic growth and GDP, the cumulative effect of which has been very large. Would leaving the EU not take that particular brake off UK GDP growth?
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
6. How many staff in his Department earn less than £7.85 per hour.
Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
12. What recent representations he has received on proposed changes to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ regional centres.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
HMRC announced its future location strategy on 12 November. As I have previously stated, delivering that strategy will help HMRC to deliver more for less and reduce its estate costs by £100 million per year by 2025. Both HMRC and I have received a number of representations from interested parties, most recently from my hon. Friends the Members for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) and for Southend West (Sir David Amess).
Sir David Amess
Following my hon. Friend’s meeting with me and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), will he reflect further on the points made about Southend becoming a regional centre? Whatever changes are made in the future, will he ensure that the hard-working, dedicated and loyal staff of Alexander House are treated well?
Mr Gauke
Of course, my hon. Friend made his representations in a robust and forthright way in our meeting yesterday. I am sure that HMRC will be reflecting on that. Assuming that staff are relocated from Southend to Stratford, they will be compensated for their additional transport costs for up to three years and will benefit from London weighting, given that they will have moved to Stratford.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
How exactly is any of this reorganisation going to do anything about the depressing call handling statistics of HMRC? Will the Minister guarantee an improvement?
Mr Gauke
At the moment, call handling is at a higher level than it has been for many years. It was certainly the case that in spring of last year call handling standards were not at an acceptable level, but HMRC has made significant improvements and I hope it will continue to make progress.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
14. What his plans are for future funding of illegal money lending teams.
Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
T4. Although I welcome the Government’s move towards digitisation of tax, a number of self-employed people and small businesses across my constituency, approximately 74% of which employ fewer than four people, have voiced concern about how quarterly tax reporting might have a negative effect on their human and financial resources, depending on their reliance on an accountant. What support will be provided to our small businesses to help them to adapt to the proposed changes?
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
First, may I reassure the House that there are no plans for quarterly tax returns, as has been reported? What HMRC is considering is making greater use of digital technology and ensuring that information is provided to HMRC more frequently. My hon. Friend raises an important point about ensuring that businesses are supported as they adapt to new ways of record keeping, and HMRC is determined to do that.
Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)
T9. The midlands engine has been turbo-charged, with recent figures showing four Staffordshire constituencies in the top seven ranked by the extent of the fall in the claimant count between May 2010 and November 2015, with Cannock Chase ranked fourth. What measures is my right hon. Friend taking to make sure that we maintain the positive momentum?
VAT Evasion: Internet Retailers
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Hanson. It was not that long ago that you and I were debating tax matters in your long and distinguished period on the Labour Front Bench, as my shadow. I note that four of the five shadows I had in the previous Parliament are no longer serving on the Labour Front Bench. I hope the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) will not see that as in any way ominous.
Rob Marris
I see Mr Hanson has had a promotion, so he should be congratulated.
Mr David Hanson (in the Chair)
With due respect, I have had a release after 17 and a half years.
Mr Gauke
Yes, that is a very long sentence. I hope you are enjoying your new role, Mr Hanson.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) on securing this debate and setting out the case so well. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on his passionate speech. He is correct to say that I have met Mr Juretic and listened carefully to the points he raised.
I will turn to specific points, but first I want to acknowledge the important work that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is doing in collaboration with other agencies, both in the UK and internationally, to tackle tax evasion, which, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West pointed out, is what we are talking about today. Tackling tax evasion in all its forms is a priority for HMRC. Last year, HMRC collected and protected a record £26 billion in revenues from compliance activities and secured more than 1,200 prosecutions using intelligence, sophisticated risking systems and smart data.
The phenomenal growth in online sales in recent years, which we have heard about this afternoon, has made many people’s day-to-day lives much easier but presents significant challenges for HMRC. That is because the supply chains are often very complex and involve a number of different entities. Suppliers can be located overseas and their records are not always available alongside the goods. All those factors combined make it much more difficult to spot where tax and duty have been paid.
To make things more complicated, HMRC is looking for frauds taking place in the midst of large volumes of legitimate trade. It is far from our, or HMRC’s, intentions to get in the way of legitimate trade, so HMRC is mindful of the need to target its activities proportionately. Nevertheless, this is a significant issue that we are determined to tackle. Building on its expertise in tackling evasion, HMRC has brought together specialists from across the Department and established in spring last year a taskforce to tackle the specific customs and VAT frauds that we have been talking about. That taskforce currently has more than 75 live investigations open into businesses or entities suspected of flouting the rules, and that figure is expected to grow to 150 before the end of the 2015-16 financial year.
Retailers Against VAT Abuse Schemes has highlighted about 500 businesses that it alleges are complicit in these frauds in some way. My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry drew attention to that list, and other hon. Members have referred to it. I assure the House that HMRC has examined the RAVAS list closely. For reasons of taxpayer confidentiality, I am not in a position to know, let alone say, what conclusions HMRC has reached in respect of each of the companies listed by RAVAS. However, it would only be fair for me to say that one cannot assume every company on the list is non-compliant.
At this point, I should touch on VAT registration numbers, which a number of hon. Members raised, including the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). Not all sellers are required to be VAT-registered. Overseas sellers that supply goods, located outside the UK, have no requirement to be registered for UK VAT. If they are compliant, in those circumstances, they would pay import VAT at the border. Of course, that would be a sticking tax, as they would not be entitled to reclaim that VAT. There are complications in this area, and the absence of a VAT number does not, in itself, suggest that a seller is breaking VAT law.
[Philip Davies in the Chair]
The issue is if sellers are claiming to be outside the UK and selling from outside it, but are in fact storing goods in a warehouse in the UK and dispatching them from the UK to a customer here. That changes the circumstances, but I want to be clear that the absence of a VAT number does not necessarily mean that fraudulent activity is occurring.
HMRC is working jointly with other Government agencies, including carrying out joint visits with trading standards and sharing intelligence with UK Border Force, to address risks across the entire supply chain to ensure that all sellers who sell online pay all the taxes that are due. To give hon. Members a flavour of that work, in an operation just before Christmas, HMRC and trading standards seized goods worth half a million pounds. As HMRC’s programme of activity continues, and both its operational intelligence and understanding of fraud improve, it expects to make more interceptions and seizures of illicit goods.
I should stress the point about illegitimate and legitimate trade. HMRC has the powers to seize or detain all goods in a warehouse, for example, but it also has to think about the potential impact of its actions, for instance, on the end consumer. If HMRC were seizing goods that subsequently turned out to be there legitimately, I suspect many of our constituents would want to raise concerns.
We recognise the concerns that have been raised by compliant businesses. Clearly, it is very important that non-compliant businesses should not be allowed to establish any unfair advantage over compliant businesses, as that would distort competitiveness. Again, that point was rightly made by a number of hon. Members. Tackling these frauds is just as much about maintaining a level playing field for business as it is about collecting the tax and duty that should be paid.
That operational work is the first strand of HMRC’s work to tackle these frauds. The second strand is engagement with the online platforms on which goods are sold.
Rob Marris
Before the Minister moves off the first strand—perhaps he is planning to address this point later—23 months ago he talked about the investigations that were going on. He tells us today that there are 75 live investigations. What he could tell us, which would not breach taxpayer confidentiality, is whether there have been any prosecutions—which would be in the public domain—in the last five years for this sort of fraud.
Mr Gauke
I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman with details on that. I am not in a position to give any numbers this afternoon, but I understand his point.
Turning to online platforms, I can tell hon. Members that a meeting with the top online platforms took place recently, at a very senior level, to explore the role that they can play in preventing such frauds. HMRC is proactively following that up to see how it can work with the platforms to tackle the fraud and better quantify the scale of that. However, having looked at the matter, HMRC’s view is that online platforms have no liability for unpaid VAT where the operator merely provides a marketplace for businesses to sell goods.
I know that this point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, and although I am loth to get too much into a legal argument, he mentioned the Kittel case. It is worth bearing in mind that the Kittel case applied in the context of MTIC—missing trader intra-Community—fraud, or carousel fraud, which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West and I debated some years ago. Irrespective of that issue, it is worth pointing out that the Kittel case has been used by HMRC in the context of withholding repayments of input tax to members of a supply chain. It is a civil case, not a criminal case, and in HMRC’s view, the important difference here is that all members of a supply chain in MTIC fraud have, at some point or other, title of the goods, enabling them to reclaim input tax. That is not the case when an online platform is involved in providing services relating to the sale. Therefore, HMRC does not believe that Kittel applies in these circumstances in the way that my hon. Friend suggests.
It is also worth pointing out that there are many parties involved in a transaction where this type of fraud may occur—for example, fulfilment houses, payment providers, freight forwarders and agents, and online marketplaces as well as online sellers. HMRC is not limiting anti-fraud work to marketplaces only, although it recognises that they play an important role and is prioritising its engagement with them in the coming weeks.
The third and final strand to tackling this issue is putting together an effective set of policies that can make this sort of fraud harder to perpetuate in the first place. As hon. Members will recognise, unilateral action is not going to solve the problem by itself, as there is an important international dimension to these frauds. They affect the revenues of other EU member states as well as the United Kingdom, and we are in close dialogue with them about how best to combine our efforts to tackle such frauds.
Rob Marris
Welcome to the Chair, Mr Davies. Would the Minister therefore say that in this respect, it would be advantageous to the United Kingdom to remain a member state of the European Union, because of that international dimension and the international action to which he referred?
Mr Gauke
I do not know whether that intervention was for my benefit or for the arrival of our new Chairman —Mr Davies, it is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon.
The point I would make is that whether we are inside or outside the European Union, international co-operation is very much necessary in such cases. As an example of that, the customs aspects of these frauds—it needs to be emphasised that this is a customs as well as a VAT issue—are on the agenda for the meeting of the directors general of all EU customs services on 26 March. There is some evidence that the UK has been particularly targeted for these frauds because of our much greater take-up of online shopping. That will make it all the more important that we work closely with our international counterparts, for the benefit of the UK and more widely. HMRC already works closely with the European Commission and OLAF, the EU’s anti-fraud unit.
Of course, there is a lot more to be done, not least as online retailing gets ever more popular worldwide. All taxes are kept under review, and HMRC is considering whether there need to be policy changes or other changes to the rules that apply to online sales. However, for effective longer term solutions, we will need to continue our engagement with other EU member states, the Commission and the OECD, and I would like to assure hon. Members that that dialogue is already under way.
Our goal is simple: one where the customer continues to enjoy the benefits of being able to buy goods conveniently through an online platform, but where unscrupulous businesses cannot undermine, through fraudulent activity, businesses that do the right thing. Although there is still much work to be done, I hope that hon. Members will appreciate the strong and collaborative efforts that HMRC is making to tackle this issue.
Draft Taxation of Regulatory Capital Securities (Amendment) regulations 2015
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Taxation of Regulatory Capital Securities (Amendment) Regulations 2015.
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr McCabe. The regulations amend the existing Taxation of Regulatory Capital Securities Regulations 2013. They clarify the tax treatment of securities issued by insurers in order to meet new regulatory requirements designed to improve financial stability. Insurers, like banks, are required by regulators to hold capital instruments that will absorb losses in the event of the insurer experiencing financial stress. Those are known as regulatory capital instruments.
From 1 January 2016, the EU solvency II directive will introduce a new harmonised regulatory regime across the EU for insurers. This is designed to make insurers more financially stable, and the Government therefore support the principles behind it. Existing tax law predates the development of the new regulatory regime, so it does not explicitly set out the tax treatment of instruments compliant with the new regulatory standards. This uncertainty of tax treatment risks inhibits insurers from issuing new regulatory capital instruments, as well as deterring potential investors. To ensure that tax rules complement the regulatory reforms, where regulatory capital is issued in the form of debt securities these will be taxed as debt instruments. This does not include shares. This aligns with the treatment provided to banks and building societies that issue similar instruments to accord their own regulatory standards, as prescribed by the EU capital requirements directive IV.
This statutory instrument brings tier 1 and tier 2 regulatory capital securities issued by insurers for the purposes of compliance with the EU’s solvency II directive into the existing tax rules for banks and building societies issuing similar securities. There are also consequential amendments and changes to update the statutory language used in respect of the taxation of corporate debt. These reflect updates made by the Finance (No. 2) Act 2015, which received Royal Assent on 18 November.
The Government are supporting the financial stability of the insurance industry by making these regulations. The amendment will take effect from 1 January 2016 in order to align with new regulatory rules. It will provide certainty of tax treatment for issuers and holders of such instruments. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Mr Gauke
As I set out in my opening remarks, the regulations provide necessary amendments to the existing Taxation of Regulatory Capital Securities Regulations 2013. They are required to clarify the tax treatment of securities issued by insurers to meet new regulatory requirements designed to improve financial stability. The taxation of regulatory capital instruments should be absolutely clear and support regulatory principles of financial stability, but the existing regulations, which provide clarity to the banks, are silent on the tax treatment of similar securities for insurers.
The securities included in these regulations are akin to loans made to the business rather than capital investment. They are therefore more like debt than equity and the tax treatment should reflect that.
Rob Marris
I have two points. First, clarity is always welcome in tax legislation, even though one may be clarifying a policy with which one does not agree, hence our discussion. Secondly, I remain bemused, because the Minister said that regulatory capital securities are akin to loans and more like debt, but they seem to me to be the cost of doing business. Many businesses require capital to do business, and those in the insurance and banking sectors, in particular, and for obvious reasons, have greater capital requirements, which are statutory. Why are they being treated that way?
Mr Gauke
The hon. Gentleman is aware that there are capital requirements on financial institutions because they need instruments that will absorb losses in the event of financial stress. The position for insurers is decided at EU level, as I said in my earlier remarks. In circumstances of financial stress, the debt can convert to equity. It is not simply a matter of it being a cost of doing business that many businesses would experience; it is part of a regulatory regime to ensure that insurers are well funded in circumstances of financial stress so that that does not cause wider difficulties in the financial system.
The hon. Gentleman expressed a concern—I do not know whether it was probing or likely to drive him to oppose the motion—that the regulations could be seen as being soft on insurance companies. I reassure him that they are about providing clarity on the tax treatment of securities that have debt-like qualities and are required to be held for the stability of insurers. The original regulations approved by the House in 2013 are designed to support the EU regulatory frameworks for financial institutions by taxing returns as interest and ensuring that a tax charge is not triggered in the event that coupon payments are altered or suspended as a result of the issuer falling into financial stress.
I hope that those points are helpful and that the regulations will be supported by all members of the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Annual European Union Finances Statement
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I am today laying before Parliament, “European Union Finances 2015: statement on the 2015 EU budget and measures to counter fraud and financial mismanagement” (Cm 9167). This is a routine annual publication. It is the 35th in the series. The statement gives details of revenue and expenditure in the 2015 European Union (EU) budget, recent developments in EU financial management and measures to counter fraud against the EU budget. It also includes an annex on the use of EU funds in the UK.
[HCWS375]
Office of Tax Simplification
David Gauke Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The Chancellor has appointed Angela Knight CBE to chair the Office of Tax Simplification (OTS). She succeeds The right hon. Michael Jack CBE who having served a full Parliament has stood down with the Chancellor’s thanks.
The OTS was established as a temporary office of the Treasury in 2010 to advise the Chancellor on options for addressing complexity in the tax system. As announced at summer Budget 2015 it will be made permanent and put on a statutory basis in Finance Bill 2016.
[HCWS373]