Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. At the end of her speech, it was very clear that she should have had no concerns about the contribution she would make to the debate—it was a very powerful speech.

We are all the product of our experiences. One of the most profound and shaping that I had in public life was being shadow Minister and then Minister for disabled people. The reason for that was the opportunity I had over the four years or so in those two roles to meet people of all ages who had thrown in front of them, sometimes over the whole of their life and sometimes as a result of circumstances, challenges and difficulties that they faced doing the things that we all take for granted: living an independent life, working, bringing up a family, contributing to society and making the best of what they had in front of them. Many of those people are profoundly concerned by what the Bill will do to society’s view of people who have challenges thrown in front of them.

I know that is not the intention of the promoters of the Bill, but it does say something fundamental about society’s view of life, particularly life lived by people who have profound challenges. That is why the Bill is not supported by a single organisation in this country that represents disabled people—not a single one—and we should listen to their views and take them very seriously.

The second very powerful argument we have heard in this debate, referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, is the one about choice and autonomy. The reason why that argument fails in this case is that you are taking a decision that impacts only upon yourself and has no consequences for others. The problem is that in delivering rights and choices for those who will be the beneficiaries—if that is the right word—of the Bill, you are effectively taking away choices and opportunities from others. There are competing rights, and when we have competing rights, we always have the most difficult decisions to make, and they are always the most charged political conversations we have.

The second reason why that argument fails is that, for choice to mean anything, it has to be a meaningful choice, and we do not have that in this country. We have some excellent palliative care, but it is not universally available to everybody; and in the Government’s 10-year plan for the NHS, there is no plan and no ambition to make it so, not even at the end of that 10-year period. I am afraid that a choice for assisted suicide without access to good quality palliative care is no choice at all.

My final point is about being clear about what we are doing here. As the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said, and my noble friend Lady May of Maidenhead said last week, this is about assisted suicide. We are amending the Suicide Act to provide a defence for people taking their life. If the promoters of the Bill and those who support it find plain and clear language uncomfortable, rather than attacking those that use that plain and clear language, as they have done with my noble friend Lady May, they should perhaps reflect upon what it is they wish to do.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

As the Delegated Powers Committee has pointed out, there are already extensive Henry VIII powers in the Bill, and it should be an easy matter to draft a new clause that removes all references to Wales in the Bill but grants a power to the Senedd to do its own Bill. Wales wants control of its own death regime and cannot do it since the Bill is nonsensically regarded as a criminal law Bill in Wales. We have the power to give the Senedd the power it needs to determine its own laws on this matter.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s amendments. I will raise two issues, one on the principle of how we are dealing with devolution. I also want to bring to the Committee what I hope is some valuable experience from my time in the House of Commons about the detail of how these services are delivered on the ground, particularly for people who live close to the border. Given that these are life and death issues, the detail of how these services are delivered is very important.

One lesson from the way in which the 1999 devolution settlement was delivered was that there was literally no thinking done about some of the complexity of the cross-border issues. It took the best part of a decade of hard campaigning work to get this right. In the interim, many of my former constituents sadly did not get the life-saving medical treatment that they deserved as residents in England. This is incredibly important. It is an issue that I suspect will be known only by those of us who have had some responsibility for this. I am sure the Minister will be well aware of it and, if she is not, she will be able to ask her officials to dig out all the background and history for the cross-border delivery of healthcare and the protocols that are now in place, because they will be very relevant to how these services are delivered.

In the first part of my remarks, I will touch particularly on the aspect that my noble friend Lord Blencathra raised. This is partly about my fundamental view that I do not think that delivering this legislative outcome through a Private Member’s Bill is very satisfactory. This issue is one of the reasons why. We have a very uncomfortable situation in which we accept that this is devolved in Scotland—and the Scottish Parliament is busy legislating to deliver assisted suicide in Scotland according to how it wants to deliver it.

I personally do not believe that assisted suicide is a healthcare intervention, actually, but it is clear from what Health Ministers have said that they think this will be delivered by the National Health Service. If it is to be delivered by the National Health Service, you would logically expect it to be done, as my noble friend said, in accordance with the devolution framework. But because what is actually happening here is the amendment of the Suicide Act to put in place the ability for people to help someone take their own life and not be caught by the Suicide Act, that effectively makes it a criminal justice matter. That is not devolved, which is why we are having to legislate for England and Wales. I do not think that makes any sense.

It would have been much better if the UK Government had had some sensible conversations at the beginning of this process with the Welsh Government and come to an agreement about how this was going to be dealt with, either—as my noble friend said—by devolving the power to the criminal law in Wales and allowing a fully devolved solution, or by the Welsh Government and Senedd agreeing that we could legislate at Westminster for both the principle and the operational delivery mechanisms on an agreed basis. We have ended up with a very uncomfortable halfway house, which I do not think will be at all satisfactory, where we will be making decisions here for a service being delivered in Wales, not doing it in line with the wishes of those elected by the people of Wales. We are not really having that proper, sensible conversation.

I turn now to the operational issues. I have looked at the Bill, and because it says almost nothing about how this will be delivered in practice, I will flag up a couple of issues. The Bill applies to people ordinarily resident in England and Wales and registered with a GP practice. For those who do not know, my former constituency is the Forest of Dean. One of the complexities if you live in the Forest of Dean is that there are parts of it where you live in England, so will be covered by the law and the NHS in England, but you will be registered with a GP practice either physically located in Wales and governed by Welsh laws or physically in England but part of a wider practice in Wales. That matters because you will get your primary care delivered according to the rules of that practice. Some of my former constituents have primary care delivered according to Welsh rules, even though they are resident in England. People will be familiar with the fact that there are differences there—about whether you pay for prescriptions, for example.

The really important issue, on which the Bill is silent, is that when you receive secondary care—when you are referred to hospital for treatment—it was the case before we put in place the protocols that now exist that my former constituents in England, entitled according to the law to get services in England, were being referred to secondary care in Wales. There, waiting lists were longer and there were not the same provisions about choice. Therefore, those residents of England were not getting the services to which they are entitled. The Bill does not distinguish between whether you are resident in England or Wales.

The concern is that if the health service in England delivers the service in a particular way but Welsh Ministers decide to deliver the service in a different way, with different checks and balances and different professionals delivering that service, it is not clear in the Bill whether someone who lives in England but is registered with a GP practice in Wales would be entitled to the English or the Welsh provisions. Given that this is about life and death situations, that matters. I, for one, am not content to leave it to secondary legislation. The Bill should spell out the rights you have as a resident of England to the services you get, and if you live in Wales the rights should be according to the provisions of the Senedd.

I see Ministers chatting to each other. This matters. If this is not got right, there will be people in England facing life or death situations who do not get the health professionals involved in this. There will be people potentially coming under the ambit of the Bill who get social care. Social care is devolved, so the level you get, the rules about it and the entitlements to it are different in England and Wales. There has been a lot of talk about the necessary provision of psychiatric services. The provision of secondary care—psychiatrists, for example—is devolved, so it will not be the same in England and Wales. Getting this right matters.

The legislation says nothing about delivering services accurately to people based on their residence. At the moment, we have lumped together whether someone is ordinarily resident in England and in Wales; I do not think that that is satisfactory. You should get the services in England that this House and the other place decide are appropriate, and English Ministers—namely, Ministers in the UK Government responsible for the health services in England—decide that. If you live in Wales, you should get the services that Health Ministers in Wales decide you get. We need to make that very clear in the legislation.

My noble friend’s amendments raise some important issues that go to the heart of the legislation. They have not been thought through by the promoter and sponsor of the Bill. Having raised them today, I hope that Ministers will start thinking about them and will come back to the House with amendments themselves. Otherwise, I will put down amendments—and I suspect other noble Lords will, too—to correct this on Report. It is a massive gap, and it will be an issue for residents in England and Wales, particularly those close to the border, who make up one-quarter of the Welsh population. It will be raised by Members of Parliament up and down the border. My experience as a former Member of Parliament is that it is better to get these things right—

[A noble Baroness]

You have made your point.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am going to finish very quickly if you do not interrupt me. The time limit is very clear, and I am going to stick to it, but I am finishing my point. I was coming to the end of my point, and that was not necessary. The Government Chief Whip made it clear that these are incredibly important issues, and we will debate them with courtesy and respect. I will treat people whom I do not agree with on this issue with courtesy and respect. As I have not exceeded the time limit, I do not expect to be yelled at. Let me just finish my point and then I will sit down.

My experience—I am going to go over the time limit only because I was interrupted—as a former constituency MP is that it is better to get these things right in advance, when you draft the legislation, and not spend years trying to fix them afterwards.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I am not an expert on delegated powers, so I must admit to a bit of confusion. I hope that either the Minister or the Bill’s sponsor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—or maybe both—can help clear this up.

My understanding of what the Bill is trying to do is to enable the Welsh Senedd to make a choice. If the amendments were to go through as drafted, they would deny that choice, because they would rule out people living in Wales from being able to choose whether they have assisted dying, whereas what I think the Bill is trying to do—I hope that can be clarified in the response—is state that the legislation will enable the Welsh Senedd to decide whether and how it wants to implement the Bill. When the Senedd does that, it can take into account the points that the noble Lord, Lord Harper, made about how the two services could sit alongside each other.

If we were to pass this amendment, we would deny the people of Wales that choice. That cuts right across the principles that the noble Lord, Lord Weir, set out when he said that the decision should be taken in Wales. The amendment would mean that the decision was taken here, which would deny the people of Wales that choice.

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[Lord Harper (Con)]

The Minister has said very carefully today and in answer to some Written Questions that there are officials, rightly, working on the legislative drafting of this Bill to make sure that it is workable. It is completely proper for Ministers and officials to be doing that. I want to probe the Minister on a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. Does she have officials, in her department or elsewhere, who have gone further than that and who are working on implementing the legislation if it were to pass both Houses of Parliament?

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I make a declaration of interest: I have an assistant who is funded by Mr Bernard Lewis and who helps me on this Bill. I make a declaration that Dignity in Dying paid for the printing of the material that was circulated to Peers in my name before this process commenced.

I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, on the short way that she introduced the important issue. I very much hope that I can put to rest most of the misconceptions that were expressed during this debate.

As everybody agrees, criminal law is not devolved to the Welsh Senedd. Therefore, any change in criminal law has to come from the UK Parliament. You cannot proceed with assisted dying without changing the criminal law. Therefore, the UK Parliament has to provide a legislative change for that.

Healthcare is rightly devolved to the Welsh Ministers and the Senedd. The Bill makes provision in England for Ministers to produce regulations on how assisted dying will be implemented and regulated in England. Clause 42 requires Ministers to produce such regulations. It is wrong, as part of the devolution settlement, to require Welsh Ministers who are responsible for health in Wales to do that. It is for the Welsh Government to decide what provision to make. Unlike Clause 41, which relates to England, Welsh Ministers are given the option to introduce such regulations as they see fit. Those regulations will permit the assisted dying process to be introduced in Wales, in the National Health Service, and for Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government to provide whatever provision for it in regulations that they see fit.

The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, asked why we are legislating for England and Wales but not Scotland at the same time. It is because we are doing exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked me to do—and I am so glad he did—which is to respect the devolution settlement. Will the noble Lord let me finish? Then I will come back to him.

The way this structure works is that, first, we in this Parliament determine whether the criminal law should be changed. Secondly, the Welsh Government are given the power to introduce regulations. That power should normally be given to Welsh Ministers by an Act of the Senedd. Therefore, a legislative consent Motion has been proffered by the Welsh Government for the Senedd to decide whether it would be willing to give us consent to legislate in an area that would normally be legislated for in the Senedd.

The LCM—legislative consent Motion—in the Welsh Senedd covers the following. I give these details for noble Lords to consider them at their leisure: Clause 40, which gives Welsh Ministers power to issue guidance; Clause 42, which gives Welsh Ministers power to regulate how this is to be introduced in the health service in Wales and with what regulations; Clause 51, which gives the Welsh Government power to talk about and make regulations about the Welsh language; Clause 54, which gives them a general power to make regulations; and Clause 58, which gives the Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government power to introduce certain of the provisions.

The sponsor in the other place and I have discussed this arrangement with the Welsh Government, and by that I mean Welsh Ministers and Welsh officials. We have done what the Welsh Government would wish us to do to respect devolution. We have taken these powers in the Bill, subject to Parliament, so that there is not a position where, after this Bill is passed, Welsh Ministers lack the power to introduce regulations if they choose to do so.

I have listened to this torrent of points about Wales saying it has not been thought out. I say with suitable humility that we have thought it out and sought to reflect what good devolution practice would require. I do not invite people to come back, but please think about what I have said and consider—

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Hold on. Consider whether it represents the right position.

Can I just deal with two other points? First, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in a very clear speech, said maybe one should amend the Bill to give the Welsh Senedd the power to make a decision about the criminal law in relation to assisted dying. It was a point I thought the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, was sort of flirting with. We have not taken that view. We have taken the view that the right way to deal with this is in accordance with the existing devolution settlement.

If the noble Lord, Lord Gove, has not been satisfied with my answer so far, he may continue with his question.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

In relation to the noble Lord’s first point, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s point about the width of the legislative consent Motion is that it wants the LCM to extend not just to the health provisions but also to those that relate to the change in the criminal law and the safeguards. It argues that those changes in the criminal law should also be subject to it. My view—and it is a view I think shared by the Welsh Government—is that, no, you do not need a legislative consent Motion for the UK Parliament to do that which it is entitled to do, which is to change the criminal law. I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Harper.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am very grateful—

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Sorry, the noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked a second question which I did not answer.

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[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I have listened very carefully to what he said, and I absolutely accept that he has conducted extensive engagement with Welsh Ministers based, perfectly understandably, on the framework of the Bill as he and the sponsor in the Commons have drafted it.

The noble and learned Lord will know that one of the concerns of many in your Lordships’ House is the extent of Ministers’ powers and the extent to which some of the regulations should be put in the legislation. I am sure, as Committee progresses, we will have those debates. If it ends up being the wish of this Parliament that more of the detail about how the legislation will be implemented is put in primary legislation, how will we do that in a way that satisfies the desires perhaps of this Parliament but does not trespass, given the way he has chosen to set out the framework, over the devolution framework? Therefore, did he consider just devolving the power to the Welsh Senedd to change the criminal law in this narrow case? Then the Senedd, as the noble Baroness said, would have the full power to change the law and implement it. I accept that what he has done makes sense in the way he has drafted the Bill, but if we significantly change the Bill, I think that will cause a real problem with how it is implemented.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am not sure I understood the question. As far as devolution is concerned, I do not think the question of regulations on the face of the Bill is the right issue. The right issue is who has power to produce those regulations and does that offend against the devolution settlement. If he has a question about there being not enough detail in relation to other areas, I am happy to answer that, but this is not for this group. Those are my submissions.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Let me ask him the question.

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Noble Lords]

Yes!

[Lord Harper (Con)]

He said he did not really understand my question. If we set out in the Bill some of the details he currently envisages are in regulations and therefore the House decides on them as opposed to them being for Ministers in either the UK Government or the Welsh Government, that will cause a problem for the approach to devolution that he has conducted. I just wondered whether he had thought about that. That was my question, and I am sorry for not expressing it clearly.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am not sure the noble Lord has quite understood what I have said. It is for the regulations in so far as they deal with the Welsh health service to be delivered by Welsh Ministers, so it is quite inappropriate for us to put them in this Bill.

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[Lord Rook (Lab)]

My Lords, I will keep this brief. I was not going to share this at this point because it is quite personal and because it takes a lot for me to counter the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for whom I have huge respect. She was the first person to invite me to the House of Lords for tea, many years ago. I do not doubt that the Mental Capacity Act has been a huge advance in how we deal with these issues.

I accept that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is probably one of the few people in this place to make judgments in the courts and the Court of Appeal on mental capacity. I suspect that more of us have had to go through the process of helping a loved one through a mental capacity assessment, although I suspect that number is also still low. My father has dementia. I have had to support him through a mental capacity assessment. No matter how clear the Act or various legislations or definitions may be on paper, it is extremely difficult at times to take someone through that process. All he had to do was prove that he had capacity to instruct a solicitor, a decision far less serious and far less terminal than the one we are discussing today.

If you assessed my father’s capacity, you would find—on the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, about literacy and numeracy—that my father has near-perfect literacy and numeracy. We have had comments about executive function. You would find that he has near-perfect capacity for executive function to make important decisions. You would also find that he has virtually no short-term memory. He is more than capable of making a decision, but that decision is gone in 30 seconds—sometimes sooner. If you apply that to this situation, he would be able to make a decision but would not know about it at the point that decision was acted upon.

Returning to the comment from the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about whether it is capacity or ability, I pick up on the comments from the other side of the Committee recently. There is not enough, in the way we judge capacity at the moment, to make this practicable and desirable. We certainly need more. I am not sure whether it is “ability”, but what we have at the moment is not enough to deal with this in practice.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has done the Committee a service in tabling this amendment. It has enabled us to think in advance of the debate that we will have when we get to Clause 3 on the existing wording in the Bill about the Mental Capacity Act. Some of those issues came out in the debate that we have just had. It has been helpful to cue that up.

I want to comment on a couple of issues following on from the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben. Two different things are being talked about with capacity and ability. I listened carefully to the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Scriven. There is a clear mental capacity test. But as others have said—I will not repeat the quote—experts in assessing capacity from the Royal College of Psychiatrists think that this decision was not thought about when the test was designed and that it is not an adequate test. I will not labour the point now, but we should think about whether we need a new test or, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, an additive process where we take the Mental Capacity Act test and add something to it. There are amendments on both of those—a new test or adding things to it.

That comes to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, made. Of course, it is true that people make life and death decisions about medical treatment and about whether to refuse medical treatment. But there is a qualitative difference between refusing medical treatment, even if the consequence of refusing that medical treatment will be to hasten the end of your life, and to make a decision for active steps to be taken to administer substances to you which will end your life. They are very different things, and they are treated differently in the law. Perhaps that is the reason why we have had that slight cross-purpose. We need to be very precise about our language when we come to have that debate on capacity. I think that that would be helpful. That is all I will say about that at this point. I suspect that we will have a very extensive debate on Clause 3.

I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was getting at something a little wider, which was not just about the capability of the individual to make a decision—that is the capacity piece. It was also about both the information they are furnished with and whether they have all the information at their disposal to be able to exercise their capacity to make a decision. It is not just about whether the information is available but whether the services are available that make that a truly proper, informed decision. Clearly, she has enormous expertise in palliative care.

Whether that palliative care is available in practice is incredibly important. Somebody could have capacity, and we could judge that they do. I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, said, with her expertise on the Mental Capacity Act, and I listened carefully to my noble friend Lady Browning about the importance of recognising how it works in practice, but it is also about whether those services are available. You could have the capacity and a lot of information provided to you, but if the palliative care services are not available to you, you do not have the ability to make a meaningful choice about whether you wish to end your life. I think that is what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was getting at in that wider use of the word “ability” on top of capacity.

When we get to Clause 3 and the amendments to it, one of the things we should think about is whether we accept that the Mental Capacity Act is a good basis. As people on both sides of the argument have said, it is a tried and tested situation. As we heard earlier, it has been tested in court, up to and including the Supreme Court. We should think about whether we want to replace that with a completely new test or whether we actually stick with the Mental Capacity Act and perhaps have some additions to it, which recognise that it is a qualitatively different decision from whether you are having medical treatment or not. That is the essence of it.

In the place it is in the Bill, just accepting the word “ability” probably is not the right thing to do. We want that wider debate. But the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has done us a service in flagging up some of the issues that we can now think about in advance of the debate on Clause 3.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps he could just clarify a point. Medical royal colleges are often quoted as having a view, but they are very seldom unanimous. I wonder whether he could tell us not just the percentage of psychiatrists but how many psychiatrists who are members of the royal college specifically had this view and how may did not. That is really important. There were a number of people who just did not respond to a question.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am happy to answer. I do not know how many did. My understanding is that the royal college, whatever its decision-making processes are, has publicly said that it does not think this is adequate. As I said, I did not quote it, because it had been quoted at length. I put some weight on that.

As a relatively new Member of your Lordships’ House, I am also very struck that this House is blessed with those who have enormous experience in the law, who have to make some of these decisions in practice, and experienced legislators, such as myself, who have looked carefully at the operation of the legislation, both in taking it and post-legislative scrutiny. Many Members have personal experience, either themselves or through family members, of the exercise of these laws in practice. I will listen very carefully to them.

Therefore, the view of the Royal College of Psychiatrists is clearly an important one that I will put some weight on, but I will also listen very carefully to others in the House, who I think will add enormously to this debate as we weigh up this important piece of legislation. I thank the noble Lord for his question.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for bringing this debate to the Floor. I declare my interests as chief executive of Cerebral Palsy Scotland, and I have been involved with the Scottish Government on neurological conditions and policies for many years.

What has struck me in the debate so far is something that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said about concentrating on the interests of the person. This is what I see every day when I deal with vulnerable people and they are dealing with service providers, whether in health, education, housing or whatever. I take the point your Lordships have made that this debate is about the difference between “capacity” and “ability”; capacity, as we define it in the Mental Capacity Act, is something that professionals will assess. They have lots of experience of doing that, and that is great. However, if we come back to concentrating on the interests of the person, the person is quite often in this difficult, complex situation for the very first time. Therefore, as my noble friend Lord Deben said, their ability to take on complex information, potentially when there might be multiple comorbidities and issues going on, is very different.

We see it in children in education and in people with communication difficulties—I have an amendment later on about how we support people with communication difficulties to navigate this. But we see it every day with the ability of people to take on something really profound that professionals are used to talking about—and we are professionals in here; we can talk about definitions and how we define things in legislation. I wanted to question whether people in the street that will be dealing with this have the ability to understand all the options, the prognoses and everything in front of them.

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[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I cannot accept that. I am talking about the Bill that we have before us. The noble Lord, Lord Harper, asked: should we have a novel approach to this? My answer is no; it is safer to continue with the approach that we have.

I want to say one other thing to the Committee. I hope the Committee will accept that, given the experience that I have had here and the honour I had of being Lord Speaker, no one respects more the contribution that this House can make to improving legislation and the commitment that it should do its work properly. The noble Lord, Lord Harper, said that we were blessed in this House with many experts, and that their opinions should be listened to. The noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, said that we should listen to the voices of those with lived experience. I am sad that the Select Committee did not do that, but I think that that is absolutely correct.

The one thing that we are not is what was said to me in 1974: “You have now been anointed by the popular vote”. I was then a Member of Parliament. It was a long time ago—in ancient times—but it was true. What has worried me slightly about the tone of this debate is that there has been a sense that this was a Private Member’s Bill introduced in the House of Lords, and that we were having the first go at any scrutiny of it. That is not true; it is not true at all. We do often get legislation from the other place that has not been scrutinised, but that is not true of this Bill. It has had much more scrutiny and I think we should have some respect for the fact that that has happened.

People say that we should not have an arbitrary timetable. Of course we do not want an arbitrary timetable. We have to do our job properly, but we should not be forced into a position where we are incapable of completing that job due to having an enormous number of amendments. We should concentrate on the important issues that we want the other place to take our views on seriously. I really think we are in danger of demeaning that process if we allow so much debate that we do not allow the other place to hear considered views on the important issues.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I have an enormous degree of respect for the noble Baroness, particularly given her position as a former Lord Speaker. I am a relatively new Member of your Lordships’ House, but I have interacted with it. I look around and there are a number of noble Lords here—such as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—with whom I had a number of interactions on previous matters. So I am familiar with the different role of the two Houses, and I believe it is absolutely our job to get legislation right.

In the end, this is a Private Member’s Bill. It was not in the Government’s manifesto, so it has not been, to use the noble Baroness’s words, anointed by the popular will. This is our job. If in the end this House decides that this Bill is not fit for purpose and cannot be adequately put into law, it is our role to say to the House of Commons, “It isn’t good enough; we need to do this again”. It is our job to say to the Government that this is of such import that, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, said, the Government should do their job and bring forward a better-drafted piece of legislation. That is our right, and we should reserve that right for later stages.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I follow the noble Lord’s argument, but he said that we should say, “We should do this again”. I think that if we reach that situation, the proper formulation is, “You should do this again”, and the other place could consider that. But the way we undertake that scrutiny should be responsible and reasonable and it should not deny the process of doing our job and putting those views and doing that—frankly, we have to be grown up about this and we have to behave responsibly about it.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I will respond to that. I do not know the answer about the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. However, I say to the Committee and to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, that amendments have been made to the Mental Capacity Act 2005 that have not been enacted by this Government. Therefore, we are not even sure exactly which version of the Mental Capacity Act we will be dealing with in the future. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is babbling away, but this happened. Amendments were made in 2023. That was on slightly different matter, but it is something I will come to in Clause 3.

I come back to the attack on Dr Price. Perhaps the noble Baroness could be brave. She has used parliamentary privilege to do that. If she really believed it, she might say those words outside the Chamber and see if she gets a legal letter. I thought it was really poor to attack somebody who had been invited and to try to suggest that, somehow, for such a distinguished royal college, she was manipulating a particular report. That was unfair.

I will make one minor observation about the Select Committee. In my view, it was noticeable how distressed Dr Price started to become during that oral evidence session. I am not a clinician or a psychiatrist; frankly, I am just another woman who could see how distressed she started to become. I also spoke to her outside afterwards. We have to bear in mind that we are used to this bear pit—which is much gentler at this end than at the other end—but that is not true of the others.

I will come back to the discussion and one of the questions I wanted to understand when going through ability versus capacity. We have already heard that things such as depression and mental illness are not a disabler. We already know that having dementia is not a reason to be denied, certainly in the Mental Capacity Act 2005. We know that capacity can fluctuate, and I certainly will not repeat what others have said.

What I have not yet understood is how things such as the power of attorney might work, which can be given over for health reasons. I want to get an understanding of the view of the sponsor and the Government Minister about the application of this, before potentially laying further amendments to discuss this.

We know that the Government do not believe that the Bill is in a fit state. They would not have 16 people working on it and the amount of work that has been going on if they did. By the way, that does not include the Government Legal Department in any way.

I thank the noble Baroness for having introduced this, but there is still quite a lot of debate to be had once we get to Clause 3, if we are allowed to see that it is in scope.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

In case I am not understanding it and it would be helpful for the Minister, is the question my noble friend wants the Minister to answer on lasting of powers of attorney whether it the Government’s understanding that somebody in possession of a lasting power of attorney for health and social care would be able to use that lasting power of attorney to seek an assisted suicide for the person on behalf of whom they hold the lasting power? Is that the question she is asking? I was not entirely certain.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My noble friend has put it more accurately—that is precisely the question I am trying to understand. I am trying to be a legislator rather than somebody who argues in court, but the very fact that somebody can make health decisions on behalf of somebody else is important to consider in this matter, and I am not clear that it is explicit in the Bill—yet—that that power of attorney could not apply. We know that the Mental Capacity Act 2005 does not apply to Section 2 of the Suicide Act 1961. I will not go into a history lesson about the Suicide Act at Clause 1, but at the moment everything seems silent on the use of that lasting power of attorney.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It might be convenient to concur with what the Government Chief Whip has just said. We could finish in the normal run of things if there were fewer interventions and perhaps if the Front Benches could be allowed to sum up.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Since I was standing, I will be very brief. I support what the Chief Whip said. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said earlier. I agree with the Government Chief Whip about not giving government time, but we need more time to deal with this as a Private Member’s Bill. I do not think that any reasonable person listening to the debate and the expertise contributed from these Benches could have concluded anything other than that this was a debate that reflected well on the House and that we are doing our job seriously and conscientiously. We need to continue to do that. That is all I would say to the Chief Whip.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

As a final point, I agree with the noble Lord. As Government Chief Whip, I take my job very seriously. I love the House, and I want to do this properly. I assure the Committee that I hear noble Lords’ sentiments. I know how long it has taken on the Bill. I know that views are sincerely held on both sides. I will work in the usual channels to deal with these matters.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I just remind the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that of course I did vote for the Brexit legislation and in fact led the Labour Party into the Lobby to support the final agreement on Brexit.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I support the thrust of the amendments in this group, but first, I want to say a word or two on one of the issues that has come up in this morning’s debate. I hope the Committee will indulge me if I just quote a few lines from yesterday’s maiden speech by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester. The House was a little less well-attended for the debate on the Sustainable Aviation Fuel Bill in which he spoke, but I thought his words yesterday, the ones I am going to read, are very relevant to the debate and the tone of it, so I hope the Committee will forgive me. He said that

“communication is a vital gift for those of us who nurture and curate community. In communication, we need to learn to speak and to listen. This is almost always done in person and directly. Indeed, I argue that one of our primary vocations in this noble House is to be with and to listen, for few disciplines are more vital in the search for wisdom—the search I so often witness in your Lordships’ House. The question for me is not so much how we can be great again, but how we can be kindly present. Greatness is great, but grace is greater”.—[Official Report, 20/11/25; col. 965.]

I think those were wise words. They moved me and I think they are relevant to how we conduct ourselves in this debate on these vital issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, referred to how useful this debate was, and I believe that it is vital. That is why I quoted those words from the right reverend Prelate. We have raised a range of issues, all connected to people’s capacity to make an informed choice. The point of the debate is for us all—but especially the Bill’s sponsor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—to listen to the concerns that have been expressed. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that the noble and learned Lord will then have the opportunity to talk to noble Lords and to bring forward on Report amendments that deal with these issues.

Part of the problem here, and the reason there are many amendments on the Marshalled List and the debate will be lengthy—the noble Lord, Lord Watts, referred to that—is that the House of Commons spent, I think, 17 hours in Committee, focusing on just the first three clauses of this legislation because they are very important. That involved just 23 Members of Parliament. Almost all the proposals that we are discussing were brought up in the House of Commons, but almost all were rejected or disposed of. If some had been accepted and dealt with in the House of Commons, all we may have been doing here is tidying up some of the wording or improving the amendments. However, we have to address them from scratch because they were not dealt with in the House of Commons.

It is our job in the House of Lords to scrutinise legislation and to deal with the things that have not been dealt with. We do that on behalf of people— a number of today’s amendments deal with vulnerable people who do not have the same opportunities that we have. The one thing that we all have in common in this House is that we are all privileged. I am referring not to our material circumstances but to the fact that we have a voice. Many people in this country do not have a voice. Many of the people who have been touched on in these amendments—people of poor material circumstances; people undergoing coercive control, as my noble friend Lord Gove suggested; and people who have severe disabilities—have no one to speak for them. It is our responsibility and duty to make sure that we test these issues and make sure the Bill is as good as it can be.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, asked whether the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, would support the Bill if some of these things were dealt with. That is not really the question. I have been very clear that I do not support the change, and I will set out why in a moment in relation to one of the amendments. However, I have to confront the possibility that the Bill may become law; I will not find that welcome, but the noble Baroness will. If it becomes law, it is absolutely my responsibility—and the responsibility of everyone in this House—to make sure that the Bill has in it all the protections for vulnerable people. If we were to fail to do that, we would have failed the people of this country, whom we are supposed to support—that is our duty. There will be some people in this House who will, if the Bill is improved, support it; there are some who will not, but that is not the point. The point is to get the Bill in as good a shape as possible.

Let me now turn to the amendments. I will deal first with Amendment 45 on encouragement, so powerfully spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley. The reason that word is important was demonstrated in the short debate between the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Carlile, on the present position. I hesitate, as a humble accountant, to trespass in the debate between those learned noble Lords, but I will make two points. First, there is a fundamental difference between someone refusing treatment or not having treatment and someone taking deliberate steps to kill themselves. Those are fundamentally different things, and trying to elide them is not helpful to the debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, talked about the status quo. As I understand it, the current position if you assist somebody to take their own life and the DPP investigates is that the guidance contains the concept of encouragement. There is a specific point, when the DPP is considering whether to prosecute you, about whether you have encouraged somebody to take their own life or tried to talk them out of it. If you have encouraged them not to take their own life but you have, none the less, assisted them, the current position is that that is treated much more favourably than if you had not tried to discourage them. That subtle position in the status quo is something we should maintain, because something very important will happen if this legislation passes, which is why I do not support it: it will, effectively, change society’s view of suicide. In some circumstances it will, effectively, support suicide where currently we do not. In those circumstances, the use of “encouraged” is vital. That is why I support the amendment.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That will very much depend upon the number of people who apply from particular groups, and I think one can be pretty sure, on the basis of the impact assessment, that there will be sufficient numbers.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I think it would probably be sensible, unless the noble Lord has something to raise that we have not already dealt with, for me to make a bit of progress.

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[Lord Harper (Con)]

It is directly relevant to the amendment that we are discussing, if the noble and learned Lord will forgive me. I am coming back to what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said about the point of the debate. I absolutely get that the noble and learned Lord is very certain about the quality of the Bill. He has set that out in his usual eloquent way. However, if he followed my injunction from the words of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester yesterday and if he has listened to this debate, he must recognise that that certainty is not shared by many Members of this Committee.

I hope the noble and learned Lord will forgive me if he was coming to this on later amendments, but he has in effect said that he is not persuaded by most of the amendments. If he does not accept that many noble Lords have concerns about the Bill and thinks it is basically fine as it is, I fear that—picking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—many noble Lords who might have been persuaded to support it had it been improved will not now be persuaded. Is he prepared to listen and amend the Bill in any way at all?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I am sure that I will not be able to reach the high standard of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, but I will try.

Secondly, I do not think I am rejecting the principle of many of the amendments. I am saying that—for example, in relation to an independent decision and to encouragement—the protection is there in practice. I also say to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that her reference to organisations is something we could discuss. I think it may already be covered but let us discuss it.

The noble Lord, Lord Harper, is right: I am saying no to quite a lot of the amendments because, in my opinion, I do not think they are necessary and there is adequate protection. It does not mean I am not listening; but painful as it is, because I respect so many people who disagree with me, I do disagree with some people.

I am very conscious as well of what the Chief Medical Officer, Sir Chris Whitty, said, which is not to over-engineer this and make it a thicket people cannot get through. If you are serious about assisted dying, make sure it is genuinely accessible to people. I am trying to strike that balance.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, up to the age of 25, people often struggle to grasp that death is irreversible. They understand in notional terms the point that death ends a person’s life on earth, but they do not really grasp the sense—both those who accept and those who deny the afterlife know this—that life as we know it ends.

Somebody who has not been mentioned is Professor Leah Somerville, a Harvard academic who specialises in psychology and is the director of the Affective Neuroscience and Development Lab. An article on her research says:

“Adolescents do about as well as adults on cognition tests, for instance. But if they’re feeling strong emotions, those scores can plummet. The problem seems to be that teenagers have not yet developed a strong brain system that keeps emotions under control”.


I have suggested the age of 21, not 25, as the lower limit. I regard this as a compromise, and I proposed it at the outset. As I say, the medical evidence points to 25; I am happy to support that.

In conclusion, opponents might say that the seven-year gap between the age at which a person is thought to be an adult for legal purposes and the age at which they become eligible for assisted suicide is simply too long, but no young person should be presented with the option of taking their own life—certainly not those who have been diagnosed as having a terminal illness. They are not physically, psychologically or emotionally developed to the maturity needed to make a judgment devoid of emotion. Although my moderate amendment places the age of eligibility at 21—I stress that it is a compromise—I would be prepared to support other noble Lords on the age of 25.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I want briefly to respond to a point made earlier in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, whose medical expertise I respect greatly. He quoted a comment from Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, which has not been said already in this debate, and talked about the context in which decisions are made. In a paper, she said:

“Adolescence is characterized by making risky decisions … This suggests that decision-making in adolescence may be particularly modulated by emotion and social factors, for example, when adolescents are with peers or in other affective (‘hot’) contexts”.


That tells me—it is relevant to an earlier discussion—that it is not just the age of the person that is relevant, which is why Amendment 4 from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is very helpful. It is about context in decision-making.

I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said about the thought process that he was going to undertake, having listened carefully to some experts. Like him, I am torn on the age issue. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is very helpful in setting out some of the issues, but I was also struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said, so I am slightly torn on whether age is the right way of doing it. I do not know whether it is an assessment.

My final point is that I was struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said—

[Lord Birt (CB)]

I just want to ask: does the noble Lord think that we should try to reach the 10th group of amendments in the course of today?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am trying to make a brief remark. I have been speaking for only one minute and 45 seconds; if I keep getting interrupted, I will not be able to sit down. I was going to make literally one more point, having listened to the debate. After all, this is supposed to be a debate where we listen to what noble Lords say and respond—

[Lord Birt (CB)]

Could the noble Lord please answer my question: should we try to reach the 10th group of amendments today?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I want to try to make progress, which is why I was trying to keep my remarks very brief; if the noble Lord keeps interrupting me, they will necessarily take longer. All I was going to do was make one further point.

I was very struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said about the differences in the medical prognosis for a number of conditions among younger people. I suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that as well as looking at the assessment process, he should look at the extent to which clinical advice and evidence can be brought in to see whether a terminal diagnosis for a younger person is qualitatively different; from listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, that appears to be the case. That may be the appropriate way to pick up the concerns, which are widely shared. But I also accept—the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, made this point—that the law has to have some clarity to it. Like the noble Baroness, I think that having lots of different ages would be very difficult.

From listening to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, I think that may be a way forward; I commend it to the noble and learned Lord when he undertakes his thought process for what he may bring forward on Report.

[Baroness Spielman (Con)]

My Lords, I have not spoken previously on the Bill, nor tabled any amendments. But as the chief inspector responsible for inspecting children’s social care, as well as education in mainstream and special schools, I have visited many institutions with children with life-limiting conditions. I recognise that the Bill has profound implications for many children and young adults.

I support the amendments to raise the minimum age of eligibility—in particular, the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, to amend the minimum age limit to 25 throughout the Bill. There are, and always will be, children in their teens with terminal illnesses who are thinking about their own futures, in the context of the choice that they would be empowered to make from their very first day as adults, before they have any experience of adult palliative care.

Even though the provisions now rightly prevent medical practitioners initiating the subject of assisted dying with children, we know that young people seek out and are influenced by all kinds of information freely available online—and we have plenty of precedents. Consider what young people can already see on suicide, eating disorders, puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and, indeed, claiming invalidity benefits. These precedents show that no matter what constraints are placed, there will be freely available video content promoting assisted dying and some of it will coach viewers in how to pass mental capacity tests. That reveals the unpalatable prospect of children reaching their 18th birthday and immediately demanding their right to a state-delivered death, with little or no opportunity for adult services to be deployed to offer supportive alternatives.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate on the age of eligibility for those who are provided with assistance under the Bill. I have made it clear previously, and reiterate, that I will keep my comments limited to the issues on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

The amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Berger, Lady Lawlor and Lady Hollins, seek to raise the age at which an individual would be eligible for the provision of assistance under the Bill. The points that I wish to raise here relate to the European Convention on Human Rights. There are potential risks that I am raising to inform the decision-making of noble Lords, but the underlying policies are rightly a matter for Parliament. Under the convention, the amendments in this group could give rise to legal challenge; for example, that excluding people who are under 21 or 25 from accessing assisting dying may not be justified under Articles 2 or 8 of the EHCR, or that this amounts to unjustified discrimination under Article 14.

Noble Lords will be aware that differential treatments, such as raising the age of eligibility, may be lawful if it is possible to persuade the courts to agree that the age limit is justified, necessary and proportionate. There would need to be a reasonable justification for restricting access to assisted dying to people aged either 21 and over or 25 and over. Noble Lords will want to consider this in relation to these amendments.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Can the Minister be clear? If we decided to limit—whether by age or in some other way that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, might decide—and put that into primary legislation, is that then not the law of the country? All that the European court could then do is say that it is not compatible but remains the law—or is the Minister saying something different? If we pass primary legislation, that is the law of the land, is it not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, when considering this group, in particular, perhaps, Amendments 300A and 306A, I realised that the small number of noble Lords who have tabled most of the very large number of amendments to the Bill recognise compassion as their guiding intention. I hope they are being reassured by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer’s comprehensive and expert reassurance on the many safeguards now inserted into the Bill—more safeguards, I believe, than in the legislation of any other country.

However, I am concerned that very extended delays will betray the hope of the woman who nursed both her parents through agonising and protracted deaths, and who now faces the same fate herself. She mourns the fact that her parents were never given the choice this Bill provides. Her words to me as a legislator were: “Have mercy”. Mercy is what this Bill is about, and noble Lords will surely seek the path to mercy. Surely only those whose motives are ideological would want to prevent this Bill from passing, rather than working out the best amendments on a reasonable timetable.

I remain profoundly uneasy at the prospect of Members of this House abrogating to themselves the right to deny the choice of mercy to that large majority of our fellow citizens who want this choice to be available, as reflected in the decisions of our elected representatives. “Have mercy” should be our watchwords.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

The noble Baroness referred to the two amendments that I have on the Marshalled List that I have not yet spoken to. She seemed to be ascribing motives to the amendments. She referred only to two amendments—the two amendments I have tabled—and she seemed to be suggesting they were designed to stop people accessing this service. I hope she will stay and listen to me when I explain what my amendments are about, and she will see that is entirely the opposite of what they are designed to do.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that nothing is impossible in human rights law. But it would be exceptionally surprising if the courts were to say that a criterion as well established as ordinary residence were not a justifiable criterion to address the difficult problem of which people ought to benefit from the advantages that this Bill, if enacted, would confer. One other point—

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[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly in support of Amendment 23, which was spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, bearing in mind that amendments in Committee very often are probing amendments to test the view of the sponsor.

It is important to recognise at the start that it is, in fact, not clear from the Bill whether the NHS will provide voluntary assisted dying services. This was a point in relation to which the Bill was criticised very heavily by the Delegated Powers Committee, on which I sit. But it clearly is the intention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that it should, and I want to assume for the purposes of this debate, very briefly, that it will.

My noble friend Lady Coffey raised at the start of this debate a problem, which was the question of whether someone might seek to obtain residency under the terms of the Bill in order to obtain what has been referred to as death shopping. This is clearly a problem. The virtue of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Frost, is that it would deal with this, imperfect though the amendment may be. I would like to hear from the sponsor of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, what his view is of the problem raised by my noble friend Lady Coffey. I think he accepts that death tourism is a problem. Is his view, like that of my noble friend Lord Lansley, that residency remains the only sensible way of determining these matters? If it is, why has he put the additional safeguard into Clause 1 of the Bill? Or, if he thinks residency is not sufficient, what additional safeguards might he be able to offer? I look forward to hearing from him when he responds to this debate.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, before I speak to my Amendments 300A and 306A, let me just pick up, briefly, a couple of issues that have been raised in the debate.

First, I was very pleased that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said it was very important, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Beith, that we dealt with these border issues. He will remember that I spoke on that on the first day of debate, using my experience as a former Member of Parliament for a border constituency and I raised some of the very practical issues that there will be if we do not get that right. The noble and learned Lord will remember that when I was raising these issues, there were people on the other side of the argument who tried to shout me down before I had even finished. I am pleased, therefore, that he recognises that the issues I was raising are important and valid ones. To make sure these issues work properly, we have to worry about both the England-Scotland border and the England-Wales border.

Secondly, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for the free legal advice he provided to me in answering the question about what the courts could do about a human rights challenge. I did not get an answer from the Minister, so I am grateful to have had it from him.

Thirdly, on the point that came up in the debate about Crown servants, if you are a Crown servant, you can retain your ordinary residence status when you are posted overseas—that applies to diplomats, members of the Armed Forces and civil servants. It does not usually apply, though, to people who work for the NHS, local government and so forth, but we do not have to worry about people who work in embassies.

Let me deal with the issues raised by the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, because they are relevant to the nature of this service. He is absolutely right that, for primary care, we do not have the same test on residence that we do for secondary care. There is a reason for that. When we were putting in place the changes for secondary care in the Immigration Act, we considered whether we should implement similar changes for primary care—that was after he was Secretary of State for Health. We did not change that position because there is a very significant community benefit for allowing people, who are physically in the United Kingdom, to have access to primary care, so that they can access all sorts of services, particularly if they have a communicable disease or illness. We absolutely want them to seek early treatment, not just for their own benefit but for the benefit of everyone else. That is why we have wider access for primary care than we do for secondary care, which we limit to people who are ordinarily resident. We allow others to access it, but only if they pay for it.

I argue that, if this is to be provided on the NHS, this service should be treated more like how we provide secondary care, rather than how we provide primary care. It is more akin to that sort of treatment than primary care. That is where I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I do not think that we are disagreeing, because my amendments would have the effect of applying an ordinary residence test. That ordinary residence test for the assisted dying service would be exactly the same as the one for planned secondary care.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

In that case, I now understand the noble Lord. When he was talking about primary care, I thought he was suggesting that we had a wider remit, so I am very pleased to hear that.

I will now address my amendments and their purpose. They are intended to deal with the fact that under the Bill, as I understand it, it would be the job of the co-ordinating doctor—a clinician—to make the determination about somebody’s ordinary residence. The Medical Defence Union has expressed concern that requiring medical professionals to do that could put them at legal risk. Indeed, as my noble friend suggested, it sort of turns them into immigration officers. That concern was pointed out when we were making the changes to the then Immigration Bill, which is why the people who make those decisions are not clinicians; they are overseas visitor managers and administrators in the health service.

Therefore, my amendments would shift the responsibility for assessing residency from clinicians back to administrators. If NHS trusts were providing this service, they would use their overseas visitor managers to do it. That is an existing structure: they are people who know how these rules work. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, mentioned, a tool already exists, which is well understood, to enable people to check people’s eligibility. I think this has already come up in the debate, so I will not dwell on it at length, but I note that ordinary residence is not that straightforward; it is designed in case law, not in statute. When we were bringing forward the Immigration Act, the overseas visitors charging review took place in 2012, which concluded that the vagueness of the definition means that ordinary residence is difficult to interpret and apply on an individual case basis.

I have already been quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and now I am in danger of quoting myself. When I was taking through that legislation, I said that the existing rules were complex. One of the things that came through from the audit was that front-line health professionals find them complex. The evidence we got was not just that this was the opinion of front-line professionals—they were actually complex. We tried to make them more straightforward. It was one of the reasons why we introduced the health surcharge. Rather than try to make it more complex for the health service not to treat people, or to test whether they were treating people, we charged people coming into the country and then let them have access to the health service. That seemed to be a more sensible way of doing it.

That is the essence of my amendment, and I suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that he looks at it. On Report, it would be helpful if the Bill was amended to take the test for ordinary residence away from the doctor in charge of this and give it to the organisation that is providing it, so that it can be done as part of an administrative function. From the conversations we had at the time, I know that clinicians and medical professionals feel that it is not for them to gatekeep access to these services, both for legal reasons—as set out by the Medical Defence Union—and, as my noble friend Lord Lansley said, because that is not their job. We already have professionals in the health service whose job is to do that, and it would be better if they were given that task rather than clinicians. That is the purpose of my amendment.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I accept that completely. The reason the 12 months is here is to give some degree of assurance that the reason you are living here is not because of an assisted death but because it is your genuine home.

I come to the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Frost. The way it is drafted, although I cannot believe he meant this in the way that he put it, you have to be ordinarily resident in England or Wales, you have to be a British citizen and you need indefinite leave to remain. I was surprised he was saying it would be an easier test to apply. It would not be an easier test to apply, because you would have to apply both ordinary residence and whether you are a citizen or have indefinite leave to remain. Even assuming the proposal is the more limited one, namely, that you only have to be a British citizen or have indefinite leave to remain and you do not have to be ordinarily resident here, that would not be appropriate, for two reasons.

First, the policy choice that the sponsors of the Bill, myself and Kim Leadbeater, have made is that, if you live here—if you are ordinarily resident here—whatever your citizenship or status, you should be entitled to it. Secondly, and separately, I do not think it is appropriate to make it available for people who, for example, have not lived in this country for 50 or 60 years and have no intention of returning. That would invite death tourism, to use the phrase.

The noble Lord, Lord Harper, said that doctors should not be required to make the assessment. If the position is that there has to be some residence requirement, it is perfectly okay for the two doctors who are concerned with this to make inquiries about where someone lives and how long they have lived here. That is not difficult, and in 99.99% of cases it will not give rise to any problems. Let us assume that most people are honest, and say to the doctor, “I actually live in France but I’m coming here because I want this”. The doctor will say that it is not available. I hear what the noble Lord says, but I do not think it gives rise to particular problems. If there are particular problematic cases, these can ultimately be resolved by the panel.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I do not think that is the experience of the National Health Service. There is a whole cadre of staff—the overseas visitors managers—who deal with people who are trying to access a service. I do not think it is the case that this is straightforward and that in the vast majority of cases there will not be an issue. That is not the NHS’s experience and I do not think it will be the experience of this service either.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am surprised to hear that. I will make inquiries, but I am almost sure that that will not be the case with this.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, gave us an interesting tour d’horizon of the law and said how “ordinarily resident” applies in various areas. “Ordinarily resident” means the same thing in all those areas. For the reasons I have already given, I do not think it will prove a difficult thing to apply in practice. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for his endorsement of the approach to “ordinarily resident”.

The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, asked me a number of questions, such as about the citizen who was ordinarily resident here and then went to live abroad—I think that was the case raised by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. If a person decided that they were going to move to Spain and live the rest of their days there, then when they become ill they wanted to come back and have an assisted death, under the terms of this Bill they would not be eligible because they would not have been ordinarily resident in this country for 12 months—this country being England and Wales.

The noble Lord’s second question was about somebody from Northern Ireland who comes here and asks for an assisted death. Again, they would not be eligible because the assumption under his question was that that person’s ordinary residence was in Northern Ireland. His third question was about why opinion is not satisfied. It seemed to us that opinion is enough in relation to this because it would be done basically by asking a number of questions and you would assume that the answers that you had would be honest.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group. I did not table one in my name about a group of people who are also subject to deprivation of liberty safeguards. I am pleased to hear the noble and learned Lord repeat his offer of a meeting, which was made last Friday. I was disappointed not to receive an invitation to a group meeting to discuss the various groups of vulnerable people who may need additional conditions. Had there been such a meeting, I would not be taking up time today or on the later group, where I had offered to withdraw amendments had a meeting taken place.

There is another group of people under deprivation of liberty safeguards who are not under the Mental Capacity Act. These are young people who are under the High Court jurisdiction of deprivation of liberty safeguards—called High Court DoLS. I thank the President of the Family Division for ensuring that there is research available on this group and the Children’s Commissioner, who has visited very many of them. Those young people are so troubled that their liberty needs to be restricted, but they cannot currently be detained under Section 25 of the Children Act in a secure children’s home. That was for a variety of reasons. One was that we ran out of places, but another was that some of them were in such a situation that they could not even bear a communal secure environment like that.

I did not table an amendment also because under the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill these young people will possibly be brought under the statutory jurisdiction of the Children Act, though it would not be all of them. There were 1,280 applications made last year, and around 90% of them were granted, so this is not, as was originally envisaged, a handful of young people. Are any of those young people also ill? Are noble Lords content that at 18 years and one day old they should have assisted suicide raised with them? Are they also happy that if a child has been under mental health treatment but is also physically ill, at 18 years and one day they come under the jurisdiction of this Bill? The same applies to those detained in a young offender institution. Sadly, due to the Private Member’s Bill process, I do not believe that there has been any consultation, a White Paper or pre-legislative scrutiny to flush out the details and data that we need to properly legislate.

I am grateful to the Children’s Commissioner for attending the Select Committee, but I was surprised that the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons did not hear from her.

In addition to the issue of those who are 18 years old and one day, some of whom are still under the jurisdiction of the Children’s Commissioner until they are 25 and under the jurisdiction of the local authority, it is not wrong to say that there will be enormous societal change that affects children. I would be grateful to know, whether now or in the meeting that the noble and learned Lord has promised, whether he is aware of this group of children and what meetings he has had to establish how many would be affected at 18 years old, how many are in this group and how they can be protected by additional conditions and safeguards.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, gave a very welcome response to the opening speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. He set out a range of protections that there may be. Once he has had those conversations, if he is persuaded that there need to be some protections, will he be prepared to table his own amendments on Report to put those protections and assurances in the legislation, or will he do what the Delegated Powers Committee referred to as disguise legislation, which is only putting it in codes of practice and guidance?

I think it would be widely agreed that if we are going to have those protections, it is better that they are in the Bill. They then cannot be watered down and can be properly enforced. Could he indicate that to all noble Lords after he has had those conversations with those who are interested? The disadvantage of having private meetings is that you are not able to tell other people. If the noble and learned Lord wants proceedings to go faster and to table his own amendments on Report and prevent the need for other people to do so, can he indicate that, once he has had those conversations, he would be willing bring forward those amendments and put those protections in the legislation. I am sure that would be most welcome. If he could indicate his thinking on that today, that would be of help to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for making that point, which I think was the question I asked last time. This is very relevant to the question that I posed to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. It is very important that we put protections in the legislation, so that they are not subsequently unpicked, whether by domestic courts or the European Court of Human Rights. If they are only in a code of practice or guidance, it would not provide protection against those legal challenges. Will the Minister just confirm that what I have said is correct?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure that my noble and learned friend will comment on the noble Lord’s points, but the point I wished to make, which might be helpful, is that it is usual practice for the Government to consider and address these matters. Noble Lords are aware that there is a range of ways of dealing with that: by amending primary legislation, through a remedial order or by a declaration of incompatibility. That is the usual practice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will just pick up what the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, is saying. I think he is saying that the Act has been updated over the years and that people have taken account of improvements. He is absolutely right; from my own knowledge of the working of the Act, he makes an absolutely valid point.

I repeat what I said earlier—that we need to discuss this. I will deal with the interventions after I have given my response.

First, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, is right in identifying the risks that arise. That is why I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right that we need to build in some form of enhanced protection.

As far as the intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is concerned, this amendment is limited to DoLS under the Mental Capacity Act; it does not include any exercise of the inherent jurisdiction of the courts on somebody whose liberty has been taken away. The noble Baroness is very welcome to come and discuss that with us, and I will give her notice of any meeting that we have.

As far as the noble Lord, Lord Harper, is concerned, how one provides effective protection depends first on the discussions that take place. I would envisage tabling an amendment on this or maybe agreeing that somebody else tables one. I cannot tell noble Lords the extent to which it will involve the Minister having powers, but it is something that we will discuss.

The points that the Minister, my noble friend Lady Merron, made about discrimination relate to people who have had a deprivation of liberty order in the past, or even those who have one now, who will be excluded altogether from the right to assisted dying. The nature of the Mental Capacity Act is that this should be done on a case-by-case basis. I am proposing that we discuss how to provide enhanced protection rather than excluding.

In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Berger, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, feel able to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that a court is unlikely to interfere with important social and economic policy that has been decided by Parliament. That rather reinforces the point that I made about why it is important that these protections are included in the legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

People living in remote parts of the borders, faced with a long drive when they are not feeling well and needing to attend an appointment 55 miles away in Cramlington, for example, could have a greater sense of wanting to seek to end their life because of the stress and sheer exhaustion that comes with travelling such distances for cancer or other terminal illness treatments. I therefore ask the noble and learned Lord, what consideration has been given to those living in remote parts along the England-Scotland border?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, this is a very sensible group of probing amendments, and it is a pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate. I will speak to them because the issues raised in this group concerning the difference between where somebody resides and where their GP is registered are exactly analogous to the situation regarding England and Wales, which I raised in an earlier group but have not received a satisfactory answer to.

I will remind the noble and learned Lord of the situation and he can, I hope, respond in a positive way. There are two issues, one of which is the difference between where you reside and where your GP is registered. There are a significant number of people living along the England-Scotland border and the England-Wales border whose place of residence is not the same as where their GP is registered. Therefore, it is very important that the legislation makes it clear that the rules through which you access assisted suicide are governed by where you live, not where your GP is registered. That is important for the reasons my noble friend Lady Fraser set out—in England and Scotland there will potentially be very different legal situations.

As we know from the earlier debate, although the Bill covers England and Wales, the rules governing the detail of how an assisted suicide service will work in Wales will be set by the Welsh Senedd, not the UK Parliament. Therefore, it is important that the Welsh rules apply only to people in Wales, who are governed by a body that is democratically accountable to them, not to people who live in England; otherwise, there would be a massive democratic deficit. It is very important that the noble and learned Lord is clear about how that is going to work.

Secondly, I think the noble and learned Lord said in response to our debate on England and Wales that he and the honourable Member for Spen Valley had had some detailed discussions with the devolved Governments. However, I was not clear from his responses whether those discussions had covered this point. Obviously, they need to take account of the views of not only the devolved Governments but the UK Government—which, for these purposes is actually only the English Government. We need to understand how this is going to work in practice.

As I have said, and in conclusion, this must be got right now, in primary legislation. If we do not get it right now, somebody will have to spend months and years clearing up the mess afterwards, which is one of the things that I had to do when I was the Member of Parliament for the Forest of Dean to deal with the cross-border issues that had not been properly thought through then. This is a valuable set of amendments. I was pleased that that the noble and learned Lord acknowledged, I think last week when the noble Lord, Lord Beith, spoke about this briefly, that these are valid issues that need proper answers. I look forward to hearing them now.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Could I be vulgarly practical about this, because of a point the noble Baroness mentioned, which is the parallelism with the deposit return scheme that got into terrible trouble? I declare an interest as chairman of Valpak. We had to work through that, so it is burnt into me how extremely damaging it was because it was not decided beforehand. I know that we are talking about much greater issues here but, as I hope the noble and learned Lord will accept, this is a really serious issue; it brought about enormous cost and a vast misunderstanding, and it ended up destroying what the Scottish Government wanted to do. It is a very dangerous precedent. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will want to make absolutely sure that we do not have a repetition of something that cost vast sums of money, in both the private and public sectors, and that has undermined an important measure ever since.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether we can now hear from the Front Benches. We have had a long discussion about these issues and have moved into the danger of repetition. We have already had a response from the sponsor of the Bill too, so I think it is now the turn of the Front Benches.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords—

[A noble Lord]

No—Front Benches.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will raise some new points that have not yet been raised in the debate—looking at the Companion, as the Government Chief Whip instructed, I have every right to do so. My noble friend Lord Blencathra made some very good points. I have been here for every minute of the debate on the Bill, and I have listened with care and courtesy to every noble Lord, whether they were making points I agreed with or disagreed with, and I expect the same courtesy to be afforded to every Member of this House.

I agree with the sentiment of these amendments. It has been a very valuable debate, because there has been a general sense in the Committee about the importance—

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord and I go back a long way. I certainly appreciate what he just said, but I ask him whether he agrees with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that it is important that the Bill gets to Report and that the House has the time to consider it then and not only in Committee.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am trying to make some comments on the amendments. Let me do that and then, if I have time—I am very careful to keep my remarks to less than 10 minutes, which is the guidance in the Companion—I will address the noble Baroness’s points. She is right that, when I was Government Chief Whip, she was my opposition and we had a very good working relationship, which I want to continue in this House.

What has come out of the debate is a general view from everybody, whatever their view on the Bill, about the importance of the relationship that people have with their general practitioner, whether it is an individual or, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, said, a multidisciplinary practice. That is a very important point. The amendments that have been tabled to Clause 1 are about the eligibility criteria for whether someone is able to make a request for an assisted death.

The flaw in the amendments—I support the idea behind them, but I do not support them—is that they do not make an appreciable difference to the safeguards in the Bill. When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, made some remarks in this debate, he put his finger on it: there is no requirement in the Bill for the GP or the team at the GP practice to be the doctor who makes the assessment about whether the person has the capability to make this decision or not. That, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is the role of the co-ordinating doctor, who does not need to have any relationship with the patient at all.

When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, looked at this issue before, there was a report from the Demos assisted dying commission, which the noble and learned Lord chaired. Its recommendations recognised the need for

“a doctor who … knows the person well and supports the person and their family”.

The report also said that that doctor who knows the person can better assess whether the request to die is a cry for help, a sign of poor care or a result of coercion, and that

“if an assisted death was to go ahead, the first doctor should be responsible for arranging support for the patient and their family during and after the assisted death”.

It envisaged that

“the first doctor would have a greater level of involvement”

and

“an established relationship with the person requesting this assistance, and be familiar with their personal history and family context”.

That seemed to be the general view of all of the noble Lords who have spoken.

The problem is that there is no requirement in the Bill before us for the GP or multidisciplinary practice to be the co-ordinating doctor or even to be consulted before the co-ordinating doctor makes the first assessment. It is absolutely true, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said, that, when the co-ordinating doctor has made the assessment, he or she has to send that to the GP practice. However, as the Bill is drafted at the moment, the role of the GP practice is to act as a postbox, log the report—I see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, nodding—and pop it on somebody’s medical records. There is no requirement or duty on that GP practice to read the report, to make an assessment of the decision of the person with whom they have a relationship to die or to do anything about it at all. That is the flaw in this.

The problem with the amendments on the eligibility criteria that we are considering is that, if they were all adopted—this is an administrative point—they would not ensure that that knowledgeable individual or practice with whom the patient has a relationship has any role whatever in making this important decision, involving the family or consulting anybody at all. That is the flaw.

This has been a valuable debate because I think it has demonstrated—and I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, recognised in his earlier comments —that there was value in that relationship, and I am not surprised by that, given the conclusions that the commission he chaired came to, but the problem is that that is not reflected in the Bill at all.

If I may, I will conclude on this point before I address the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton. Why we have these debates, and the reason for hearing from noble Lords with opinions, is because it highlights the flaws that exist in the Bill. The point of this process is that that then enables the sponsor of the Bill and all noble Lords to listen carefully to the debate and to bring forward improvements on Report.

I hope that, in his response, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will draw on the concerns that have been highlighted and can indicate his approach. If he is minded to bring forward amendments that deal with some of these things, that clearly means that other people do not need to. If he indicates he is not minded to do that, then other noble Lords can bring forward amendments to deal with it, which can then be debated and voted on at Report stage. That is the point of our process and why we debate these things in the Chamber: so that everybody can hear the debate and the points. It is a better way of improving the legislation than having lots of private discussions to which most of us are not party.

What I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton—

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I think there is a misconception by the noble Lord on how modern general practice works through the electronic patient record. If the report goes to a GP, like any report does, it is clinically coded, and there would be a flag on the patient’s electronic patient record that would indicate to the GP and anyone in that practice that an assisted death had been requested through the co-ordinating doctor. It would not, to use the noble Lord’s words, just be postboxed; it would be automatically registered on the electronic patient record, and a flag would come up for anyone in the GP practice to see what was happening.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

That is a very helpful intervention, and I absolutely accept that. I understand that that is the way it works. Certainly, with the way the NHS works now, you can go on to the NHS app, which many noble Lords may use, access your own patient record and see all those various notifications registered. He is absolutely right that a flag would be raised; the problem is that there is no requirement in the way the Bill is drafted at the moment for that GP practice to do anything as a result of that flag being raised—none at all. I think there should be. We can come on to that, as we progress through the Bill, when we get to Clause 10. That is the point I was trying to raise.

I do not want to go over my time, but I will deal briefly with the points by the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton. I agree with her. It is right that the House scrutinises the Bill properly. If you look at the number of days of debate in the House of Commons, I think there were 11 days in Committee. If you look at the normal way this House conducts itself—because we tend to do a more detailed level of scrutiny than the House of Commons—you would expect, as a rule of thumb, about 16 days of debate in Committee; then we normally have 50% of that on Report and at Third Reading. I do not disagree with her. It may be that this Bill requires more time, and that is clearly a discussion for the sponsor to have with the Government Chief Whip about making that time available. But I think the wrong response is for us to not do our jobs properly, not scrutinise the Bill and not make sure that it is a properly fit piece of legislation to get on to the statute book. That would be the wrong response. If we were to do that, we would be failing in our duty to legislate properly for the people of this country.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, I will speak to these amendments because I want to make a new point. A very vulnerable population that we must continue to remember is the prison population. Although we will deal with the prison population more fully in the group coming up, we must remember that this Bill currently does not exclude prisoners from being eligible. That means we must consider how each issue is likely to play out in a prison setting.

As we have heard extensively, these amendments deal with two main issues: first, access to primary care; and, secondly, how well that primary care physician knows the details of your medical history. The first is very closely related to inequalities and making sure that those who have worse access to care are not more likely to choose assisted dying. The prison population are therefore a key group that must be considered, since their health and access to healthcare are worse than that of the general population. That is evidenced by the recently published report by the Chief Medical Officer.

That report also highlights access to healthcare for those in prison. There is no automatic or compulsory enrolment of prisoners into primary care on the prison estate. Over 20% of the prison population do not complete registration on arrival. For those who do, the service is often slow or inaccessible. According to the Nacro report on physical health in prison, two in five prisoners waited for a month or longer for a GP appointment and one in 13 never got one. According to the Chief Medical Officer’s report, one in three prisoners does not have their full electronic health record available to prison healthcare staff. These are not just statistics. When I visit and talk with prisoners about their well-being and purpose, access to healthcare is always spoken about.

Briefly, I do not believe that the issue of how well a primary care physician knows your medical history has been sufficiently considered from a prison context. If a GP may be the person to conduct a preliminary discussion to consider a person’s application for an assisted death, how will they do that safely with incomplete information about their patient’s health record? We must question eligibility along these lines. Before we talk about the next group of amendments, I hope that there will be important safeguards for prisoners on the issues raised in this group.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 9th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, the flaw in that argument is that not all of the questions for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the Minister have been asked. If they answered some of them now and more were then asked, we would need to hear from them again. That would not help the Committee make progress. It is better that the noble and learned Lord and the Minister hear all of the questions then respond to them.

I listened carefully to the procedural debate yesterday. There was a great deal of concern that one of the reasons for the slow progress of the debate was the fact that many of the questions asked in the debate have not been answered by the Bill’s sponsor; indeed, the sponsor himself recognised that he needed to do better. That is welcome, and we look forward to hearing that later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Lemos) (Lab)]

I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord but I am sure that it will be useful for him to know that the Minister will respond on the question of resources when the time comes.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

That is very good. I am glad that the noble Lord has confirmed that the Minister will respond; I look forward to her doing so.

My final point concerns whether the Bill’s sponsors have carried out the modelling and costings that their proposals will require. Have those been put before this House so that we can make the appropriate decisions?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am sure that the noble Lord will have read the impact assessment; it is based on the current Bill, which includes the panel, and contains detailed costings for the panel.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am aware of that. I want to know whether it will contain detailed costings for the court process. Obviously, I do not know what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is going to say, but one of the things discussed yesterday was whether he will accept any of the amendments that have been tabled. The point I am making is that, if he were minded to accept the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, which obviously have a cost implication, there is a role for the Government in assessing those costs as well as a role for the sponsors. I am simply asking whether, if the noble and learned Lord were to accept them—he may not, of course—he would also provide the costs to the Committee. At that point, I draw my remarks to a conclusion.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will not detain the Committee for very long; the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, can be reassured that I am not in the business of making a long speech.

I have in the past expressed my concerns to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, as to whether judges are the best people to make these decisions and whether they can do so against the advice of the contracting doctor. The problem is that the doctor will be absolutely adamant that he is right in his case; I do not see why a judge should be able to overrule that, and I am not at all certain that a panel makes it much better. We should concentrate very much on the question of the contracting doctor; my forthcoming amendments will, I hope, address that point.

The problem is that doctors are sometimes malevolent. I accept that the doctors in this House are dedicated to looking after their patients and the public good, but that is not always the case. There are occasions—the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, referred to them—when doctors get it completely wrong.

I am very pleased that although Esther Rantzen was given six months to live, that was two and a half years ago. She wrote an article in the newspaper saying how much she has enjoyed the extra time that she has been given, although she is an advocate of this Bill. We must accept that doctors get these things wrong, and I think we should be concentrating on the contracting doctor rather than on the process of review.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Baroness Levitt) (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall respond to the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Coffey. Some of your Lordships may be aware that I know the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, very well. Indeed, the convention of this House is that I refer to him as “my noble kinsman”. This has given rise to a number of jokes outside this Chamber, but there is a serious point to be made here. I reassure your Lordships that this has no effect on the Government’s neutral analysis of the workability of the amendments in question, and although I have the advantage of having advance notice of my noble kinsman’s position, I have engaged with him as to the Government’s response in no different a way from the way I would with any of your Lordships.

As this is the first time a Minister from the Ministry of Justice has spoken in this debate, I reiterate what has been said on many occasions by my noble friend Lady Merron: the Government’s position is that it is a matter for Parliament to decide the policy which underpins this Bill. It follows that I will not be providing a government view on the merits of any of the amendments, nor will I make any observations in a personal capacity.

I will, however, deal with the question asked by a number of your Lordships as to whether the Government would deliver this, were the will of Parliament to be that the general principle contained in the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, were to be adopted. The answer is that, given our current workload, it would of course be challenging; I say this because I am in fact the Family Justice Minister, as well as the Lords Minister. But if it is the will of Parliament, then we will work with the judiciary to make sure that we have the resources in place to deliver what Parliament has decided.

This is a large group of amendments, and it is the Government’s view that—

[Lord Harper (Con)]

On that point, briefly, the Minister made the point about making available the resources to deliver what would be in the Bill. The question I asked her, which the Whip on the Front Bench confirmed she would answer, is: would that have an impact on other users of the court system, or would the Government make available extra resources to deliver what is in the Bill, but without disadvantaging other users of the court system? He did say she would answer.

[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

He did not intend to say that he would go further than I have just gone. That is confirmed. I would be surprised if he had intended to go further than I intended to go.

With respect to the noble Lord, we are not here to debate what is going on in the family justice system. We are here to debate these amendments, and I am going to stick to that. I am also anxious not to take too many interventions because this is a large group, and there are things the Government want to say about workability. I need to get through them in the time allotted to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

I am sure the Committee entirely endorses what the noble Baroness said in relation to the importance of those who are hearing impaired. I think that, in these circumstances, this is not a matter for the Government; it is a matter for the proposer of the amendment and for the sponsor of the Bill should it be passed. However, the point remains an important one.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Before the Minister concludes, she has obviously inadvertently omitted to answer the important question that both my noble friend Lord Gove and I asked. This is a resources question and the Whip, of course, confirmed that she would answer it. The Bill, as introduced, had a court system in it. It was reported that the sponsor of the Bill was advised by the Government and the judiciary that it was not possible to deliver that for capacity reasons. Did the Government provide that advice, and if they did, will the Minister publish it?

[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

I am going to repeat the words that were used by my honourable friend the Minister for Courts in the other place. The decision as to the introduction of the panel was made by the sponsor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I just want to make one point—

[Noble Lords]

No!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harper (Con)]

No, I am sorry, there is no requirement in the Companion that you can speak in a debate only if you have tabled an amendment. If we want to finish at 3 o’clock, we can either go slightly past 3 o’clock or we can stop at 3 o’clock and resume this group next week. I wish to make one point that has not yet been made and which I think is pertinent to the debate, and I believe I am perfectly in order doing so.

The point is this. Two Members have raised the valuable contribution made in yesterday’s procedural debate by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham—a man who knows what he is talking about on the NHS, as he ran it for a number of years—about the timetable for the Government to publish their modern framework for palliative medicine. He said that, at the moment, that framework is likely to be published after Parliament has considered the Bill, and he felt that that was the wrong way around. The reason that matters is that the Government have published a 10-year plan for the NHS, and nothing in that plan will significantly change the provision of palliative care in England.

We know that only about half the people who require specialist palliative care are able to get it, and that the Bill’s sponsor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, believes—or believed and still believes—that good palliative care is a prerequisite for there to be assisted suicide, so I think it very important that the Minister answers the question and confirms that the Government will at least think about publishing the modern framework for palliative care before we get to Report on the Bill, so that this House can make a properly informed decision about the amendments before it on palliative care.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, this is a self-regulating House, and that does not mean that a Government Whip can regulate who can speak and who cannot. I echo the point made by my noble friend. If the only way one can speak in these debates is to sign amendments, I know what to do in future.

I spoke for five minutes on the Friday before Christmas and said not a peep in the debate earlier today because it was not my speciality. I have been waiting here for two hours to make a speech on palliative care, and we seem to have been refused the right to do so because the Government Whip wants us not to say anything so that we can finish at 3 o’clock. I agree that we can finish at 3 o’clock—it is a simple matter for the House to adjourn and come back to polish off this matter next Friday morning—but it would be absolutely outrageous for noble Lords who have not had a chance to speak at all on palliative care to be refused the right to do so because the Government have imposed an arbitrary timetable on us.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I hope that it was an intervention, because, if so, I am able to comment on it. If we start talking about paternalism, we will go backwards in time. We are not really talking about that at all; we are talking about the legislation of this House and the House of Commons. We are talking about how we produce legislation that works. What worries me is that there are a lot of words being used, such as “paternalism”, “kindness” and others, that are making us less precise. Law has to be precise enough for it to be properly implemented.

Frankly, the intervention of the noble Baroness sums up something else. There is a paternalism among some in this Committee who feel that they are so right about the Bill and that they can therefore ignore the comments of people who are trying very hard to overcome their own prejudices—if that is the right word—to get the Bill right. I find it a bit discomfiting to be lectured to, from time to time, as if I should not be making any of these comments because I do not seem to understand the higher views that are being presented. After being a Member of Parliament for 40 years and knowing what goes on in families in terrible circumstances, all I am trying to do is protect people. That is my job; it has been my job all my life. In response to the noble Baroness shaking her head, I say: that is not paternalism; that is the role of leadership in any circumstances. It is what decent people do, and, above all, it is what kindness demands.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to two blocks of amendments in this group. Before I turn to that, I just want to pick up on the points that my noble friend Lord Deben made. I strongly agree with the thrust of his speech, and I look forward to the response of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, to this group, not just to the specific amendments. Perhaps it will give us a sign of how he intends to respond.

I agree that if the noble and learned Lord listens to the concerns of the Committee and sets out clearly on the Floor of the House on the public record what he intends to do about some of them, that is the best way, from his point of view, to make progress. It is important that those commitments are made on the Floor of the House in public, rather than in private meetings. That is how Ministers generally conduct themselves when they discuss concerns with Back-Benchers. They might have meetings to discuss those concern, but, certainly when I was a Minister, I was always expected to set out at the Dispatch Box what I was committing to do on behalf of the Government so that people were confident that we all had an agreement and that it could not be walked back. Given that we are in a slightly different situation here, because it is a Private Member’s Bill and the noble and learned Lord is the sponsor, I would expect him to behave in the same way as a Minister piloting a Bill to give that level of public transparency, and I hope he will be able to do so.

I will pick up on what my noble friend Lord Deben said in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington. I agree with her that we should not be paternalistic, but I do not agree that that is what we are in danger of doing. This group of amendments is about making sure that other people are not making decisions on behalf of the individual who is going to end up losing their life. This is about making sure it is actually their decision, that they are not being pressured into it and that someone is not making it on their behalf. Allowing somebody else to allow someone to be killed is the paternalistic thing—to turn a blind eye to it and do nothing about it. To make sure that it is genuinely that individual’s settled will is the opposite of paternalism. That is what we are trying to do in this group of amendments.

The first amendment I want briefly to refer to is Amendment 28 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. It is about setting out in the eligibility criteria that someone is entitled to benefits under the special rules, for example, personal independence payment on the grounds of terminal illness. I accept that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, may quibble with the wording, but the point is to make sure that the person has gone through that process to apply for that benefit to make sure that one of the reasons they are seeking assisted suicide is not because of financial pressure. There may be other ways of achieving that, but that is the purpose of the amendment, and that is very important.

The Committee will be aware that under our rules for personal independence payment, if you have a terminal illness diagnosis, there is a fast-track procedure, rightly, so that you can get financial support much quicker than under the normal process. That is very important to ensure that someone facing a terminal diagnosis does not have financial pressures added to all the other things they are dealing with. The amendment is a sensible way of ensuring that someone has got that financial support and to make sure that is not the reason they are seeking assisted suicide.

Secondly, I support Amendment 31 and Amendments 68 and 68A, to which I have attached my name. They would make sure that it is genuinely somebody’s own request. The reason why that is important is—we will hear from the noble and learned Lord in a minute about whether he thinks the drafting of the Bill already deals with this—that I am very mindful of the issue that we hear about pretty much every week, and I suspect we will hear it again today from the Minister, who usually has an extensive piece in her briefing that counsels us on concerns about the European Convention on Human Rights and the extent to which decisions that this Committee takes might end up being challenged under that legislation and that we should bear that in mind.

I always listen to the Minister with care, and I am effectively doing what she is asking us to do, which is to be concerned about that issue. Even if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is able to assure us that, in his view, the Bill as drafted does not present that risk, I still want him to look seriously at these amendments because of my concern—which we have seen in other jurisdictions—about judicial oversight and judicial moving of the goalposts. This legislation will inevitably be challenged, and I want to make sure that we do not find judges starting to move the goalposts when there are challenges and allowing things to happen that we would not have wanted to happen.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I very strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said. I would just like to correct something that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, said in his email yesterday, I think. I am extremely anxious to get this Bill through to Third Reading, but I profoundly dislike it, and I never said that I wanted to get it right the way through to the House of Commons. I just wanted to put that right.

I doubt the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Harper, that judges would be moving the goalposts. I think he is in a different world from me. Having been a judge, I do not remember ever moving the goalposts; it is only when the law is uncertain that judges, from time to time, have to come to decisions.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble and learned Baroness and, of course, I defer to her knowledge of the law. The point I am making, which I think is the same point, is that we should make sure that the legislation is absolutely clear, so that there is no risk of that. The other issue, of course, is that so much of this legislation is not in statute but left to regulations, which are much easier for judges to challenge than primary legislation.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am not at all sure that they are. If Parliament has passed regulations or primary legislation, judges apply it; they certainly do not try to move the goalposts. That is the only point I am making.

The last point I want to make is that as the recipient of a lasting power of attorney, which is in the hands of my children, I certainly do not want them to decide when I die.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

This whole debate shows that these are not black and white matters. Although they are all relevant criteria, which absolutely should be in the assessment—my understanding from the Bill is that they are in the assessment—it should not be put down as some sort of tick-box exercise that says you are either eligible or not, according to them.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

May I just check: is the noble Lord, Lord Markham, really saying that he wants it to be open so that a lasting power of attorney could be used by somebody else to seek the death of the person on behalf of whom they have that power? Does he want that to be available? I do not think he does, and it appeared that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, did not either. If we do not think it should be, we should rule it out.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

What I am trying to come back to—a point that my noble friend Lord Deben was making—is that there are some valid criteria here. I am trying to build some flexibility into this system. Lots of eligibility criteria are being set out here, in all these different amendments.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

“Available” in that context obviously means available in a practical sense for that particular patient. If you live in the western part of England and there is palliative care of a particular sort available in a place you cannot access, that would not be “available”.

My noble friend Lady Merron indicated what the effect of Amendment 28 is, which was again proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The effect is that there are two additional requirements before you are eligible for an assisted death: first, that you are eligible for certain specific benefits available at end of life; and, secondly, that there has been a home visit by a GP to consider it.

Neither of those is appropriate for eligibility requirements for an assisted death. As my noble friend Lady Merron said, you might well not be eligible for particular benefits because, for example, they are means tested and you are above the means. It would be wholly wrong for that to prevent you getting an assisted death if you are otherwise entitled to it. Again, I do not think that the purpose of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, advancing that provision was to say, “You’ve got to satisfy these specific requirements”, with all the problems my noble friend Lady Merron indicated.

What I think she was getting at is that you have to be sure that financial circumstance—being short of money—is not a relevant reason for an assisted death. I put forward the Bill on the basis that choice is the key thing. Your financial position might be an element in what makes you reach a decision. From the way that the safeguards are put in the Bill, they are trying to ensure it is your decision, freely made.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am slightly incredulous about this, so I am just going to make sure I understand the noble and learned Lord correctly. As we also heard earlier from the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, he is talking about someone’s autonomy. If you are in a financial position where you feel you are unable to live properly because you have no money, and as a result of that you decide you want to end your life, that is not a freely reached decision; that is being done because of your circumstances. Is he really saying that he is okay with poor people ending their lives, with the assistance of others, because they are poor? That is what it sounds like. All we are talking about with these amendments is putting in provisions to make sure that is not the case. That is not paternalistic; it is protecting people. Exactly as my noble friend Lord Deben said, that is what we should be doing in this House.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am saying that what the Bill does is allow you to make your own decision. I am strongly against saying poor people should not have that choice, which appears to be what the noble Lord, Lord Harper, is saying. The evidence from abroad is that it is people from perhaps more financially secure circumstances who make this sort of choice.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am going to come back once more, because the noble and learned Lord suggested why I was saying what I was saying, which is absolutely not the case. What I am saying is that if someone is making the decision because they feel pressured because of their financial circumstances, that is not a free choice; that is a choice that is being forced upon someone by their circumstances. They are not in an equal position to someone with resources. That would be very wrong, and I think people would be horrified that he is suggesting that someone, because of their financial circumstances, should be more likely to end their life than someone else.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am saying it is their choice.

I will go on to Amendment 31 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, in relation to the issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is saying on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, that it must be their own request for an assisted death. The whole Bill is posited on the proposition that the person making the request has to be doing it as their own free choice. I draw attention in that respect to Clause 1(1)(a),

“has the capacity to make a decision to end their own life”,

then Clause 1(2),

“has a clear, settled and informed wish to end their own life, and … has made the decision that they wish to end their own life voluntarily and has not been coerced”.

Then, if one goes over the page to the conditions, there is Clause 8(1):

“A person who wishes to be provided with assistance … must make a declaration to that effect”.


The only concession made is in Clause 21 on the declaration. Clause 21(1) states:

“This section applies where a person intending to make a first declaration or a second declaration … declares to a proxy that they are unable to sign their own name”.


It allows a proxy to sign their name. The noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and I are both saying that it has to be you who does it, the person who wants it, the patient. My own view, having consulted on this, is that that is absolutely clear under the Bill and that the terms of the amendment would make absolutely no difference to it legally. I make clear that the policy intent that the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, wishes to achieve is exactly the policy intent that has been achieved.

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[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, in connection with Amendment 30, I will just say, in a point of distinction to some of the speeches, that if I were interested in having an assisted death, part of the reason would most definitely be that I would not want to be a burden on my family. I have told my children this. They perfectly understand and I trust them to carry out my wishes. If I do not have any more pleasure in living, I most particularly do not want to add to the burden on my family. It seems to me that that is one of the perfectly good reasons to have an assisted death.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will touch on Amendments 30, 56 and 57, the latter two to which I have attached my name. Before I launch into my arguments, it is, if I may say so, a delight for me to see the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, in her place after an unavoidable absence. She and I worked very closely when I was shadow Minister for Disabled People. I found her insight and lived experience, and her willingness to spend time with me on improving my knowledge of disability, extraordinarily helpful. I was grateful to her for the time that she was willing to spend. I am pleased to see her here in this important debate.

The latter contribution I thought was helpful. It goes to the heart of two issues: what the Bill is about and whether the promoters of the Bill are being entirely straightforward about what it is about. The Bill is called the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill, and the primary requirement is that you have a terminal diagnosis. The arguments made for it are almost entirely around preventing people suffering or having physical pain. However, as has been pointed out, that is currently not anywhere a requirement in the legislation.

Sometimes supporters of the Bill do not make that argument. Instead, they focus on autonomy, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, did this morning, or on choice, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, did in response to my challenging him on someone’s financial circumstances. We should be very straightforward. If the promoters of this Bill are arguing that it is entirely about somebody’s choice, they should be very straightforward about it. They should not argue that people have to be suffering and that this is about relieving it—which, as my noble friend Lady Fox said, is what compassionate and kind people think is the motivation for this legislation. If they think it should be open to anybody regardless of motivation, they should say so. It is very helpful when some of them are prepared to say that, because it makes what this is about more straightforward.

This goes to the heart of why many of us have concerns. We know this will get challenged in the courts and be expanded, because that has happened everywhere else. As I said earlier, the Minister keeps telling us about the human rights provisions. They will absolutely be used, if not to change what is in the Bill, to widen and challenge the regulations made under it. That is why so many of us want more safeguards on the face of it and not left to statutory instruments, which we know judges are very happy to change and strike down.

It will get expanded, so the proposed new clauses we have put down about the motivations are important. If it is about choice, it has to be a real choice. For people to have genuine choices, they cannot be forced by circumstance into making them. I was exercised with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, earlier because somebody might have enormous pressures on them—financial, housing, feeling like a burden or, as others have said, wishing financial resources to go their families. Some think those are perfectly fine reasons for somebody to have an assisted suicide. I do not, and I think most members of the public do not think those are reasons for somebody to kill themselves or seek to have others help kill them. We should just be honest about it. If noble Lords think that is fine, they should say so and we will see whether that argument carries water.

People are not making that argument; it is about whether you are suffering. If noble Lords think that is the critical matter, they should put it in the Bill and make it so that you can get assistance with your suicide only if you are suffering and in pain, and that is the reason for your seeking this course of action. If it is one of the other things, we should rule it out. If you are not prepared to rule it out, it becomes clearer what this is really about.

That goes to the point made by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin and why so many of us have concerns. The remarks I made at Second Reading are absolutely highlighted by these amendments. Not a single organisation of or for disabled people supports this legislation, because they are concerned about two things. As my noble friend said, they are concerned that, because so many disabled people are made to feel that they are a burden or, because of the costs of their disability, have financial or housing pressures that others do not have, they will feel forced into seeking an assisted suicide when that is not really what they want. Secondly, they are concerned that, if society decides that it is okay for you to get help in ending your life because you feel you are a burden or do not want to cause problems for other people, that fundamentally changes how society treats and looks after disabled people. Instead of wanting them to live well and have great lives, and being prepared to find the resources for them to do so, we would rather they were not here. That is the message they are getting.

These groups of amendments make it very clear that this legislation is about alleviating suffering and pain; it is not about the other things. That is why I strongly support these amendments and I hope that, in his response, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will recognise that those are the reasons why so many people take a different view from him, If he limited the provisions of the Bill to people who are in pain or suffering, it would reassure the many disabled people in this country who are terrified that the passage of this legislation will fundamentally alter their lives for the worse.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Harper; when he was a Minister, we had many interesting discussions, although they were possibly not as collaborative as those with my noble friend Lady Campbell. This group talks about motivation and I am sure we are going to be told that these people have terminal conditions and they are dying anyway. We have to understand, however, that there may be a number of other motivations that are part of this.

The noble Lord, Lord Harper, as a non-disabled person—I assume—highlighted many of the reasons why disabled people are very worried about this Bill. We look at what happens in other jurisdictions around the world, including Oregon, Washington, Belgium and Holland. Australia is one of the newer jurisdictions, having recently changed the law, and it has surprisingly high figures on the number of people who request assisted dying because they feel they are a burden. In western Australia in 2022-23, 35.3% of people who requested an assisted death did so because they felt they were a burden. In 2023-24, that figure was 32.2%.

We have to understand that, unfortunately, in the UK currently, the health and social care system is broken for many people. The fact that a person might not be able to get good social care, a job or access to work could add layer on layer to a reason why someone might request an assisted death.

I am told that it is not for disabled people, and I am not suggesting we draw up a list of every single condition of people who would qualify or not. I have spoken many times in the Chamber about how people assumed I would want to change the law because someone with my condition would probably rather be dead than alive. My condition is spina bifida. I assume that I would not be eligible for an assisted death because of that, but, if I got a pressure sore, I would very easily and quickly fit it into that six-month diagnosis.

I have lost many friends through pressure sores, one of whom I was in school with. She also had spina bifida and had a pressure sore on the base of her spine, and one problem with it developing so rapidly was that she did not feel it: she was paralysed and did not realise she had it. It was discovered by the smell. As soon as it was discovered, a number of people around suddenly started talking very differently about that young woman’s life: about how, basically, she would be better off dead, because it was never going to heal.

This is why disabled people are so fearful. If the law changes, it does not matter whether there is one doctor or two in the assessment process—which I do not believe is anywhere near strong enough currently. There will always be ableist doctors out there who would very quickly think and agree that we would be better off not being around.

Let us look at other jurisdictions and the number of people there who choose to end their lives. When I talk to people outside, they assume we are talking about cancer and leukaemia, not lots of other conditions. But in Belgium, for example, the official figures from last year show that 54% of people who requested an assisted death had cancer; 26.8%, however, had polypathology. Now, I am not a medic, so that sounds like an interesting combination of conditions. Actually, though, what is included in those figures is being tired of life.

This comes back to the debate we had in the previous group about the equality impact assessment. That is based on the first 10 years of Oregon, where the numbers were very low because there was no social media and people did not know about it. This provides more evidence of why the Government need to reconsider looking at the impact assessment to actually understand the numbers that might be involved. The noble Lord, Lord Harper, is absolutely right: we need to be honest about what we are doing here, not wrapping it up in euphemisms and easy soundbites. I have said consistently that, when you do an interview about the Bill, it is not easy to lay down every single reason in four minutes as to why a number of people have many concerns with the Bill.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I will make four quick preliminary points.

First, I join everybody in welcoming back the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, and I have been debating this for at least 20 years, or maybe longer. It is very good that she is still with us and doing it in the same way.

Secondly, I mean no disrespect to the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton of Dallington Forest, but I will not deal with the points that she made because in a sense—and I quite understand why—they have nothing to do with these particular amendments, which she acknowledged. However, I am more than happy to talk to her about the process issues and I would welcome a conversation with her.

Thirdly, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, asked whether it is a medical procedure and whether it is part of the range of treatments that have to be offered or discussed with the patient. In relation to whether it is a medical procedure, the noble Baroness will know that the Bill provides that the actual provision of assistance has to be given by a doctor. I do not know what the consequences are in relation to either the medical or the legal world, but that is the medical connection.

In relation to whether it has to be raised if it is a possible medical procedure, the answer is unequivocally not, because the Bill specifically provides in Clause 5(1) that:

“No registered medical practitioner is under any duty to raise the subject of the provision of assistance in accordance with this Act with a person”.


So the matter is put completely beyond doubt in the Bill.

I turn to the substance of the amendments, which fall into three categories. The first is the amendment ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Weir, to the effect that certain motivations, if they exist, should ban or prohibit an assisted death. Secondly, an amendment says that the only circumstances in which you can have an assisted death are when you are acting for your own sake rather than for the benefit of others. The third category is where you are acting for the primary purpose of avoiding physical pain. All the amendments in this group are designed to try to limit it to certain permitted motivations only.

I want to adopt completely the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, who described what the Bill is seeking to do: to give people who are diagnosed as having six months or less to live the choice about how their life ends in those six months. The choice they make may be motivated by a whole range of factors. The pain may be too much. They may not be able to bear the thought of being reliant on their children, not because they see themselves as a burden but because the whole change in the relationship is just unbearable. They may not want to go through that period while they await death and there is nothing else. They may find the whole sense that they are incurring expenditure for somebody else so awful for them that it makes them feel bad and they do not want to go through it.

I go through all those possibilities simply to indicate that the reasons why you may want an assisted death vary from person to person. From my own experience, it is very often what we would regard as pain and suffering that causes it, but what causes distress or unbearability to people is not always, and may not often be, the pain or the suffering; it is the whole circumstances in which they find themselves during that last six months.

There is an incredibly good article by somebody on what their mother, who had all the access to palliative care, said was awful about their circumstances. All the pain relief was there and everybody had come to say goodbye, but then weeks went by when there was nothing but staring at the wall in a period of not quite being able to engage with other people and wanting it to end. Would they qualify if, for example, pain and suffering was the requirement? No pain would be identified. The suffering would come from the unbearability of it.

The Bill is constructed on the basis that the person who has six months or less to live should have the choice. There are ideas to bring in these particular things. Do they feel they are a burden to somebody? Do financial considerations apply? They might well apply because there is only a limited amount of money to go around, so they might contribute. Is the panel or the doctor supposed to parse the precise part that every one of these motivations plays? In my view, that would be a very bad way of constructing the Bill. I am very happy to explain how I got there. I think it is a choice, and pain and suffering will often be the choice. If you are serious about putting the patient first, you have to give them the choice and not be in a position where you are trying to look into a whole range of multiple motivations.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for once again giving way. Can I just press him on this choice point? Although I do not agree with the Bill, there is an argument to be made for giving people a completely free choice, but does he accept that many people in society have many constraints on their ability to make choices? These amendments are trying to make sure they are making a free choice, not one that has been constrained by their other circumstances. Does the noble and learned Lord accept that it is a problem if someone has all these constraints on them and is not really making a free and unconstrained choice, which many people in this Committee would be able to make? Does he even accept that it is a problem that, although it may be difficult, potentially needs fixing?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It is very difficult and would be inappropriate to try to examine exactly why people make particular choices. Look at the first Amendment 30 proposal:

“not wanting to be a burden on others or on public services”.

Why does the thought that they are going to be a burden on their children become an unbearable thing for some people to go through? They might make that choice because of what has gone on in their lives, but it is totally inappropriate, impossible and wrong in a Bill such as this to say that we have to ask why they are in that position.

The next proposal refers to a mental disorder—

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[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Many years ago, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, introduced a similar Bill. I, very misguidedly, introduced an amendment to the title of the Bill; I suggested that the word “euthanasia” should be in the Bill. I did this without believing either that the Bill should pass or that it should fail—I was genuinely uncertain—but, earlier that week, I had talked to a 16 year-old schoolgirl in a school. In the short conversation we had, she asked, “Do you think we always feel that we have to go for and strive for perfection?” I found that very difficult to answer, so I pondered on it.

One of the issues here is exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Frost, has just shown. He tried to demonstrate that there are no absolute meanings of words. In that case, I used Greek, but this is something that we need to go beyond now. These words will mean different things to different people. We waste a lot of time doing this sort of meddling with language when it is unnecessary and when there is no issue with the legal quality of the Bill, which, of course, must be paramount. It is clear that the language we have at the moment is undoubtedly intelligible and largely workable.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, let my start by picking up the point that was just made by the noble Lord, Lord Winston. We should be plain and simple in saying what is going on. In effect, the Bill’s central purposes are to amend the Suicide Act and to legalise somebody’s ability to assist someone else in killing themselves. We should be frank about that; that is what we are doing. If people find us being clear and speaking plainly about what we are doing either uncomfortable or distressing, that should make us pause and ask ourselves whether what we are doing is the right thing. We should not change the language to make the thing that we are doing more palatable. We should speak plainly about it then judge accordingly.

There are some real consequences. One of them was set out by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin when he referred to people with learning disabilities. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will correct me if I have got this wrong, but I think that, when he gave evidence to the committee, he was clear that he wanted someone with a learning disability to have the same ability to access assisted suicide as anybody else, assuming that they meet the other eligibility criteria. My noble friend Lord Shinkwin put it very well when he said that people with learning disabilities need to have things explained in clear and straightforward language. That is really important.

In an earlier debate, my noble friend Lord Markham talked about relying on the experts, but we cannot do that because we know that they do not always make the right decision. We know that, during the Covid pandemic, many people with learning disabilities were given “Do not resuscitate” notices because some people had made the decision that their lives were not as worthwhile as others. People made decisions about them that they would not have made about somebody who did not have a learning disability. It is important that we make sure that the language we use about this decision, which could not be more important, is understandable and that the consequences are understandable for everybody who will be impacted by such a decision. My noble friend Lord Shinkwin made that point well.

My noble friend Lord Frost has already made the point about the use of the phrase “committing suicide”; I reflected on it before I signed his amendment. Personally, I do not like using that phrase—the “commit” piece, not the “suicide” piece—so I paused before I signed his amendment. However, I thought that having a debate and pressing on clarity was important. Obviously, we are in Committee. If my noble friend were to bring forward these amendments on Report, I would want to work with him on the language. I think that removing “commit” would be better because, as my noble friend correctly said, the Suicide Act has removed that vocabulary.

But using the word “suicide” is accurate. Just because somebody has a terminal illness, that does not mean that in taking their own life they are not committing suicide. It is important because it gets through to people the consequence of what we are doing here and the fundamental reshaping we are doing to the way in which society looks at this. That is why so many of us are concerned about it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

I hope that the sponsors of the Bill will be persuaded of the benefits of the additional measures that we propose, which no doubt can be improved even further through dialogue before Report, not least with those who have concerns about the Bill. I conclude by asserting that we should put no obstacle in the way of someone of sound mind, of a settled view, in deep distress, with death imminent, being allowed a dignified ending to their life on earth, at a moment of their choosing. I beg to move.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I thought we were taking the remote contributors first. If we are not, since there are amendments from my noble friend Lord Mackinlay of Richborough to which I have attached my name—he is unable to be here today; he sends his apologies and has asked me to speak to his amendments—I will speak to Amendments 223A, 223B, 223C, 495A, 771ZZA and 771ZA. For the avoidance of doubt, I am perfectly happy to take any interventions, if anybody wants to ask me any questions, if anything I am saying is not clear or if anyone wants to challenge my arguments.

The primary reason for these amendments, as was ably explained by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, is that the Bill does not really give the patient choice. It is designed to preference one option—that of seeking assisted suicide—rather than to help the patient navigate all the options that may be available to them.

There were limits on the way my noble friend could table his amendments. The advice that we received was that any amendments requiring a personal navigator to help secure or facilitate access to palliative, hospice or other end-of-life care, as an end in itself, were out of scope because the Bill’s collective purpose is provision for assisted suicide, not the wider delivery or co-ordination of end-of-life care. So amendments were admissible only where consideration of alternatives were explicitly tied to eligibility for or progression within the assisted suicide process. If anyone has any criticisms at this stage of the way that my noble friend’s amendments are drafted, I say that they are drafted in such a way as to fit with the advice that we received, so I will be perfectly happy to take criticisms of the drafting on the chin.

I start with a point that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, acknowledged in his opening remarks. He said that it was of great importance that there is universally available palliative care. He went on to say that, in his experience of talking to people, even where that palliative care was available, it did not always do the job that the person required it to. However, he skated over the fact that high-quality palliative care is not universally available. In the debates that we have had so far, to which the noble Lord, Lord Birt, referred, many of us have thought that, if high-quality palliative care is not available as part of the choice that you face, seeking assisted suicide is not the result of a proper, freely reached choice, because you do not have all the range of things in front of you. I think I am right in saying that, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, was tested on that, he accepted that you have to make your decision based on the choices that are actually available to you. Many of us think we should actually be trying to make sure that everyone has access to that high-quality palliative care and understanding that should be part of this process.

The point of the amendments that we have tabled is to try to ensure that this navigator does not just have a conversation at the beginning; if you seek palliative care and it is not available to you in the normal course of events, this person could help you seek that, rather than being able only to help you seek assisted suicide. They can help you get the full range of choices that you might wish were available to you because, if they were, you might make a different choice. So that is the purpose of the amendments.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

This is a point of clarification about access to high-quality palliative care. It should also be about timely access, because we know that, even in the parts of the country where high-quality palliative care exists, around 100,000 people do not get it at a time that would amplify it and ensure that they get the maximum benefits.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful for that intervention; it is a very good point. The importance of it is emphasised by one of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, made in his opening remarks: that many people do not seek to make decisions on these matters until quite late in the process. If you were facing considerable pain as a result of your medical situation, not only might you not think about assisted suicide early on but, if it not available in your area, you may not have sought high-quality palliative care early enough. Again, that needs to be available at pace, as well as the choice of assisted suicide.

The second reason why I think these amendments are important is this. I do not know whether I am the only noble Lord to have thought this, but it does seem odd that what we are, or the noble Lord is, proposing here is a personalised service, I presume funded by the taxpayer—the noble Lord nods his assent—which would support somebody in a very personal, individual way to seek one particular outcome. But as far as I am aware, unless something happens in the National Health Service that I am not aware of, we do not offer a personal navigator to help somebody with their journey through seeking medical treatment that will actually help them live and live well, and it just seems to me a slightly odd sense of priorities that we are proposing to put in place a service that is only available to help somebody die.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I wonder whether my noble friend could think a little bit about the money involved in this. I am sorry—it sounds a bit odd, but I do feel very strongly that we ought to talk about how much all this is going to cost and where that money is coming from. In the very unsatisfactory answers from the Minister, who gave the opinions earlier on in previous arrangements, I asked directly whether she would assure the House that this money was additional money, rather than money that would otherwise come from the National Health Service. I wonder whether my noble friend would think to himself about the extra cost that this would mean. Where would it come from, and why are we not spending it on a lively attitude, which is to help people when they are ill with better palliative care, instead of going in for this death concept?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful for my noble friend’s comments, and he is right: we had an extensive exchange on this subject on a previous Friday, and I am sure the Minister will correct me if my interpretation of what one of her ministerial colleagues said was incorrect, but it was very clear when I asked whether the Government were going to fund anything in the Bill. The Minister confirmed that, if Parliament were to choose to pass the Bill, the Government would indeed fund it and make sure it could be delivered. But when I asked the Minister whether that funding would be extra funding from the Treasury or would be taken from other parts of the public services—I think this was in the context of the extensive debate we had on the proposals on the court system by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile—it was made very clear that that assurance was not given. I am afraid that the only conclusion I could come to, which was not challenged by the Minister—if she thinks I have got it wrong, she is welcome to intervene—was that the money would come from other parts of the public services.

I have to say for myself that, if this assisted dying navigator proposal were to be funded by taking money away from NHS services to pay for it, I think people would find that quite extraordinary. I personally would find it indefensible that we were, again, taking money away from services to help people live to pay for a service to help them die. That would show a very odd sense of priorities. When the Minister responds, because she is the only one who can answer this question, not the sponsor of the Bill, because he is not, as far as I am aware, responsible for His Majesty’s Treasury, I hope she can tell us—

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I think I heard my noble friend say that NHS resources should be used just to help people live. Of course, we would all agree that is a very important thing, but surely palliative care is all about helping people to die comfortably, which I think we all believe in as well. Given that, maybe my noble friend would agree that helping people to die comfortably, such as through palliative care, is a very good way to spend NHS resources as well.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I agree that palliative care is a very good way to spend NHS resources, to help people live the rest of their lives in as comfortable a way as possible; it is not about accelerating their demise. That is a fundamentally different thing. In the exchange towards the end of our debate last week between my noble friend Lord Markham and my noble friend Lady Finlay about what palliative care is and is not, we had that, and I think it came out very clearly.

I do not wish to overstep the time available to me. The purpose of the amendments is to challenge some of the premises of the proposal set out by the noble Lord, Lord Birt. I hope I have set out some of the concerns that we have, and I hope that the House will support the amendments I have supported on the Order Paper.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 287A, 287B and 771ZB. I call the noble Lord, Lord Birt, my noble friend. We went to the same school, although admittedly not at the same time. I am conscious that he has come at this with an approach of a lot of research, as he set out. The noble Lord knows that I disagree with him, but I understand why he is trying to speed up. However, I wonder whether he has taken account of evidence presented already. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, talked about the CEO of Mind, but also Marie Curie spoke about this and indeed the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

I am particularly thinking of the speeding up and that moment of reflection, which is really important. I think the noble Lord is already suggesting in his Amendment 771 that patients should be aware of their right to withdraw from the assistance process at any stage. There is quite a lot in here that sets out a framework that could be done through the NHS. I completely agree with what the noble Lords, Lord Stevens of Birmingham and Lord Mawson, have said: it worries me that, if this ends up in the NHS, it will accelerate in becoming a routine end of life. In my meetings with the Royal College of GPs, it has been clear that it does not want this to be part of the NHS and it would absolutely resist it being part of the NHS contract.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

On that point, and the point raised earlier about a conflict of interest, one of the problems if this is in the NHS is the money. The cost of the drugs to end someone’s life, according to the impact assessment, is £14.78, but the saving you would make from four months of healthcare not used would be £13,075, and anyone with any experience of NHS budgets knows that that contrast would inevitably drive people to being pointed towards assisted suicide.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

I have to say that that was not my intention—the noble and learned Lord knows that perfectly well. I raised the point merely to indicate the length of time that this is taking and that a lot of the proposals and amendments on the Marshalled List could be addressed if we had amendments put forward by the noble and learned Lord, which he indicated in an email last week would be forthcoming. They are not here.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I think that the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Birt, has put down these amendments is that it is not clear, from what the Government have said or what the Bill says, where this service is supposed to be—I see that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, is nodding at that. If the sponsor of the Bill had set out in the Bill more detail about how it would work and where it would sit, if there had been a proper process, many of the amendments from people with concerns would need to have been tabled and we would be moving faster. It is because of that gap and that failure, which is the sponsor’s responsibility, that this is taking a long time. It is necessary scrutiny to get the Bill right. That is what the public would expect of us.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I think that we can clear quite a number of these things away by taking one central issue. The big problem about being in government is that it is not a single issue that faces you; it is a whole range of issues, and you have to get a balance between them. When we talk about cost, it is perfectly possible to say that there is a majority of people who want this thing, and there is a majority of people who want that thing. The Minister and the Government have to decide how to share out the money that is available between those things. That is crucial to any decision made by this House. My concern is that we are not facing up to that. This is a single issue being presented to the House as if it can make decisions about single issues, irrespective of the effect of the decision on all the rest of the single issues that people also have strong views about.

If you asked the public whether they wanted more money for palliative care, they would almost universally say yes. If you asked the public whether they wanted a National Health Service where they could get an appointment with their GP within a week, they would say yes. If you asked the public whether they wanted a National Health Service where there was someone who could help them through complicated arrangements, they would say yes. The problem for this House is that we have to decide, first of all, what burden these proposals place on the National Health Service, the judicial service and the Government as a whole.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Sorry, I will try to hasten it, actually, in many ways. Maybe we should slow down.

I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Birt, for the amendments in the group and the whole idea of establishing the assisted dying help service. As the noble Lord said, it is based on well-established experience. It seeks to address a number of important questions that the current draft of the Bill does not address. How will important services, such as care for the families of those who are seeking assistance under the Bill, be provided? Who will publish the appropriate information about the provisions of the Bill in the public domain? How will those seeking assistance be supported throughout the process? These are thoughtful amendments, but a number of noble Lords have quite rightly raised concerns about the potential downside to speed and efficiency in this case.

The amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Mackinlay seek to ensure that when a personal navigator is allocated to the person seeking assistance—that sounds like a good suggestion—there must not be a presumption that, when they appoint that navigator, the person will necessarily continue with the process to its end. That gives the person who seeks it the option of changing their mind.

A number of the issues that we have discussed today have been discussed throughout the passage of the Bill. I have a number of questions; they are more for the Minister than the Bill’s sponsor, but I think that many noble Lords have questions for the Minister.

On the specific matter of the assisted dying help service, as well as the duty to publish information on the Act’s provisions, what consideration have the Government given to the interaction between the legitimate dissemination of information about assistance with ending one’s life and the encouragement of suicide, as prohibited by law under the Suicide Act 1961? I know that this issue came up very early on but, in this specific context, it is worth repeating.

A number of noble Lords have rightly asked about the workability of the help service, including what the cost of managing the service and the other running costs might be. Do Ministers feel that resourcing the service adequately might undermine the effective delivery of other parts of government? As a number of noble Lords have said, the Government have not really answered those questions about the available resources and where the money will come from. Once again, I am taken back to Second Reading, when the noble Lords, Lord Stevens and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—the latter being a former Health Minister—both said, “We know how the system works. This money will come from somewhere, and it will be at the expense of palliative care”. We are assured by those who support the Bill that that will not be the case; indeed, Ministers have themselves said that sufficient money will be made available. However, a couple of weeks ago, I asked almost the same question as my noble friend Lord Deben asked—albeit in a less eloquent way—of the Minister from the Ministry of Justice, and, last week, of the Minister from the Department of Health. To be fair to the Government, I received an answer from the Minister; if noble Lords allow me, I will touch on a few extracts from that letter and paraphrase where possible. The Minister’s letter to me said

“you sought confirmation that the Government is confident that palliative care will be sufficiently funded, so that those who may seek assisted dying services are offered a real, as opposed to theoretical, choice on palliative care to support them making a more informed decision”.

So far, so good. As my noble friend Lord Gove said, the letter talks about support for the hospice sector, including £100 million for adults and £80 million for children—I almost sound like a Minister responding here, I know, but we have to be fair when we challenge the Government on this. The Minister also mentioned the all-age palliative care and end-of-life care modern service framework for England to improve the services. The noble Baroness, Lady Berger, said that it would be published in spring 2026, but the letter says that it will be published in autumn 2026—I think the Minister answered that; let us be fair: that is better than the answers that many Ministers from all parties have given over the years, where they often say “at pace” or—what is the other phrase?—“in due course”, but at least this gives us a real timeframe. The Minister also talked about the framework being aligned with the ambitions of the 10-year plan.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

On that point, I also got a copy of that letter. It is worth saying that, in the 10-year plan, there is no ambition for high-quality, universal palliative care. It is not there. So, if the plan the Government are going to publish in the autumn is aligned with it, I think we can see that they do not plan on making universal, high-quality palliative care available in the next 10 years. That is a real problem for decisions taken under this Bill.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that intervention. Before commenting on the content of the Bill, I was seeking, just to be fair to the Government, to lay out what they have told me.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I was just about to go on to the whole issue of funding, which many noble Lords have raised throughout this morning’s debate. The Government’s position is absolutely clear on this. Should Parliament pass the Bill, the Government would work to undertake development of the delivery model. Until the parliamentary process is complete, we are making no assumptions as to what the delivery model for an assisted dying service would be or what the role of specific departments in delivering the service would be.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister something that I do not think is an operational decision but a decision in principle, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and does not require the Government to take a view on whether they support assisted suicide or not? Is it the Government’s view—do they agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevens—that we would have to change the founding principle underpinning the National Health Service to put this service in the NHS? If they agree with him, is that something the Government support? The Government can remain neutral on the principle of assisted suicide, but I want to know whether they think it should be inside the NHS or not.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very aware of the repeated requests and comments. I come back again to the point that we have been making throughout the debates on these amendments, and throughout the process: until the parliamentary process is complete, we are making no assumptions as to what the delivery model will be. That is absolutely clear and straightforward, and has been emphasised by other Ministers before me.

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[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want to unfairly ascribe views to the Minister on behalf of the Government, but, just so I understand this, is she saying that the Labour Government do not have a view at all on whether we should change the founding principles of the National Health Service away from it being one that delivers medical treatment to save lives to one that also helps people to die? Is she really saying that they do not have a view?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I am saying that, at this point, the Government are neutral on the whole area.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

That is extraordinary.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I do not think it is extraordinary, but I am sure the noble Lord will keep expressing his point of view.

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[Lord Birt (CB)]

I am sorry; perhaps the noble Baroness can talk to me later, as I could not take in what she said.

I am, frankly, open-minded about the NHS question and accept the strength of what the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, says. It may well be that this is an organisation that should be apart from the NHS but uses some of its services. However, I am happy to talk to others about how best to do that.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Harper, that the process can, and should, be designed not only to support assisted dying but to painstakingly explore the alternatives to assisted dying, and I did say this. We suggest that palliative care should be one of those services and, whatever the reasons that people have for assisted dying—there may be others beside their chronic near-death state of mind—we also propose that the organisational body should be able to help the person in other sorts of ways. We want it to be a balanced process.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for taking my question at this stage of the debate. I listened very carefully to him when he was setting out his proposals and I welcome the fact that he said that the navigator can discuss palliative care and such issues with the person concerned. Unless I misunderstand his amendments, they do not propose to help secure those services for the person. They might set out what they are, but they do not get them, so there is an imbalance there. They will help them get the assisted suicide but not proper palliative care.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

I do not think it for us, in framing in principle amendments, to deal with that level of issue, but the noble Lord is right—that is exactly what the body should do. We are talking about highly distressed people, and it should facilitate different kinds of response and reaction to their difficulty.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

That is a very helpful intervention because the evidence from the places that have gone down this road and changed their legislation is that the unassisted suicide rate does not fall. This does not seem to prevent suicides from happening and these amendments are about people having information. With these amendments, we are not debating whether the Bill passes; we are debating the contents of the Bill and whether it is safe for patients.

Given the problems, I ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer: is there a plan to relicense drugs that in this country are available only for veterinary use, for the purpose of ending the life of patients here?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will make two brief points. First, I support the important point made by my noble friend Lady Berridge about how we deal with misinformation. In an enlightening exchange I had with Health Ministers on the subject of flu vaccination, I discovered that a significant number of people working in the health service are vaccine hesitant and at least some of them are because of the scare stories that we read about vaccination. I suspect that those people will be more informed than the general public, because they work in the health service, so how we deal with misinformation is very important.

My main question, for which I am pleased to be in this House surrounded by expert lawyers, is a legal question on Amendment 188A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Coffey, about putting current case law in statute. My question is aimed at the Minister, I suspect, but if he is not able to answer it today, I would be grateful if he could write to us. Would it be helpful to put the current case law position in statute? Would that be helpful in the sense of giving Parliament’s imprimatur, saying that we are comfortable and that we think the current position is helpful? Would it in any way inhibit or prevent the development of further case law?

Again, because of what my noble friend Lady Berridge said, I am conscious that a lot of the information that people get is from online sources. Because of the fast-changing nature of the world, artificial intelligence and so forth, I would want to make sure that, in this area, evolving ways of people getting accurate information that they can rely on were able to be taken into account by case law; equally, I would want to ensure that case law could take into account information sources that are not reliable and reputable and give guidance to clinicians about how they deal with informed consent. The danger of putting some of that detail into statute is that it does take some time to update. I am looking for factual guidance about whether that is helpful for us to put into statute or whether it is better to leave it for evolving case law. It is a factual question, and I hope that the Minister can either deal with it today or write to us.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, very briefly, I support these amendments. The process is designed only to kill but, inevitably, as noble Lords have explained, there will be complications. People react differently to different drugs. Only with full information will the patient be able to consent. Without it, that consent cannot exist.

I have questions for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. Why is the doctor required to discuss the nature of the substance—how it will bring about death, how it will be administered—but not to tell the patient that it may not be successful? Why must the doctor discuss with the person their wishes in the event of complications? Why is there no requirement to explain and discuss the risks of complication? How can a patient give informed consent? If the noble and learned Lord does not intend to accept these amendments, can he tell the House what his intentions are?

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I think that this is absolutely clear in the Bill. Self-administration is what is required. We are discussing how to deal with complications, including whether or not the patient wants some sort of non-intervention, which is perfectly possible. If it is not specifically agreed, and the patient is suffering in some way, the role of the doctor is to save their life, because the doctor cannot kill. I do not think that there is any doubt about that position in the Bill. I do not think that this is properly covered by the terms of this amendment—I will look at it again—and so I do not think that any further change is required.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I again apologise for not being a lawyer. I listened to this very carefully. I think there is a big gap here. The noble and learned Lord talked about the doctor, in effect, giving treatment to save the patient’s life. If the patient has expressed a clear and informed wish to die—I think this is the question that the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, asked—does the doctor owe a duty of care then to save the patient’s life? I do not think that that is clear at all. Doctors, I think, are asking what it is they are supposed to do. If they do not do anything and the patient dies and then it is found that they should have done something, that is incredibly serious. Doctors are asking for it to be put beyond doubt what they should do in those circumstances.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

First of all, there is absolutely no need to apologise for not being a lawyer; some of my best friends are non-lawyers. Secondly, this very thing was very closely considered, hence the provision in the Bill to say that, if there are complications, let us try to agree in advance what we should do. We will not, I am sure, be able to cover every complication, hence the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevens. The answer is clear and beyond doubt—hence the reference to the need to address the question of complications—that the doctor should do what the doctor is always obliged to do, which is to save life.

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[Lord Harper (Con)]

Just for the avoidance of doubt for anyone watching these proceedings, the noble Lord, Lord Polak, is no longer present in the Chamber, but he is very much still with us.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend Lord Harper is absolutely right: he is still with us, but he is absent for the moment. It might have been that, when he was given his diagnosis that he had six months to live, he was told that his final months would be very grim indeed and he would suffer terribly. He might, if this Bill had been in place, have made the decision to end his life. That was 32 years ago and my noble friend Lord Polak is actually pretty fit and doing a good job in your Lordships’ House. So we have to question medical diagnosis in this case.

I am very concerned and would like to hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, what he thinks about the problems of wrong diagnosis. I am old enough to remember that there was a time when we had capital punishment in this country. One of the reasons why it was abolished was because of the miscarriages of justice and the number of people who were hanged when they were innocent. That was a very serious lever used to get rid of capital punishment. What percentage of misdiagnosis of terminal illness would the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, think would be right before he thought about whether the whole basis of this Bill was to be questioned? I do not think we have any statistics on misdiagnosis—maybe he has some—but it really undermines the whole basis of this Bill if we have doctors who quite innocently say that they think a person has only six months to live but then find that they have not and they live on much longer. This is a matter of tremendous concern to people in this country.

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[Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I 100% support the motive behind the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and what the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, and others have just said, but my question is this: will it make any difference? If you want an assisted death, would you not be able to get it simply by saying that it is related to your terminal illness? You have your terminal illness and you have the prognosis, and you will therefore be advised by anybody who wants to assist you in your death that that is what you must say. How is this therefore a protection for the problem that we are discussing?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, in this group of amendments—the two parts of it, if you like—I support the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, has brought forward, which sets out that the primary motivation for seeking assisted death is terminal illness. That is important because, otherwise, the terminal illness is simply a trigger.

One reason why I think this is important is something that I am very nervous about. I am not saying, by the way, that this is the motivation of the sponsor of the Bill, but he will be aware that many people think that this Bill is just a first step—there are campaigners outside this House who absolutely think that. One problem with the way that it is drafted at the moment is that, because the terminal illness is simply a trigger, it would be very simple, if this Bill were on the statute book, to simply remove that qualification, so that the rest of the structure and processes in the Bill would then allow anybody for any reason, without having a terminal illness, to seek an assisted suicide. With the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, suggests—that the reason why you are seeking an assisted suicide is your terminal illness—then you could not do that. If you were to remove the terminal illness piece, there would be no motivation, so you would have to do a lot more work. Those of us who are nervous about this Bill as a Trojan horse would be more reassured if that motivation were in place.

The second part to this goes to what my noble friend Lord Deben said about what the public think that this is about. If we look at the opinion polling on what the public think should be reasons why someone should be able to seek assisted suicide, the powerful reasons that many members of the public—not all, but significant numbers—support is to relieve suffering and pain. People are broadly compassionate and think that that is a good idea. What they do not support is people being able to seek assistance to kill themselves because they are poor or for other reasons. They think that that is a terrible reason. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and other amendments in this group would more closely align the way the Bill is structured and what it would do with what many members of the public think that it should do.

I also support Amendment 320ZA from my noble friend Lord Blencathra, which explicitly says that the purpose of seeking assisted suicide cannot be various societal factors, such as housing or financial circumstances. That is important. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and I had an exchange last week where he made it very clear that he thinks that, if those things are the drivers for you wanting to end your life, he is okay with that. I am not, and the polling evidence is that the public are not okay with that either.

Choices should be proper choices. My noble friend Lord Deben set out very well the sort of society that I think people want to see. If people want to end their life because of something not to do with their terminal illness or their pain or their suffering—because they do not have enough money or they have poor housing, or they have other things that they are not happy about—then those things are remediable. They may be expensive, but they are fixable and we can do something about them. I want to live in a society where we do something about them and we make people’s lives better—even if it is only for the last few months of their life, that is still worth doing.

My noble friend Lord Deben is right. He is not saying that the sponsor or those who support this Bill are thinking like this, but he is absolutely right that people make decisions all the time based on weighing up financial consequences. Noble Lords have talked about NICE today. When it assesses approving drugs, NICE looks at quality adjusted life years against the price of the drugs to the health service. It literally weighs up how much valuable quality life you are buying versus how much money we are spending. My worry is that, if you do not exclude people wishing to end their lives for these other reasons, we will get ourselves in a terrible place where we are not prepared to spend the money on improving people’s lives but rushing them towards ending their life in a way that is not necessary.

That is a big choice for Parliament to make and there are different views. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, set out his view last week. I have set out mine and my noble friend Lord Deben has set out his—we are in agreement. That is a decision for the House. I hope that noble Lords will support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Blencathra and make the decision that you can only seek assisted suicide if it is because of your terminal illness, not because of your other circumstances. I think that that is the right sort of society we would be creating. The package of amendments in this group would improve the Bill. They would also reassure many people who are concerned about the Bill to not be concerned about it, which would be helpful for everybody. I commend them to noble Lords.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, on the society that we are seeking to have. We agree on so many things. We are on different Benches, but we agree on many things. However, the pre-eminent reason for this Bill is a terminal illness for six months. I understand what the noble Lord opposite is saying—that one cannot be sure—but we are talking about six months. As other noble Lords have said, one might aspire to have access to the drugs so that one could take one’s life if one had a terminal illness and it was thought that it was going to last for six months, but it does not mean to say that people are going to use them. It is important to remember that all the time. Six months and a terminal illness is the important thing to keep in the forefront of our minds at all times.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That was not really an intervention; it was just a statement. I should have said to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that, as I said last week, I will make an amendment so that the question of why will be asked, but I do not depart from the proposition that autonomy should be the leading reason for it. We disagree about that, and the House can reject that view on Report, but I am explaining what my position is.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I want to pick the noble and learned Lord up on the progress that I thought we had made last week, which he has just confirmed a bit, when he accepted that asking the question was valid. The problem is, if the result of asking that question is that nothing changes, it is just cosmetic window dressing. He may not have intended to, but he illustrated beautifully the point of asking the question. If we talk to somebody and it is clear that the reason they do not wish to go on is that they are lonely and they have no one there, we can do something about that. There are organisations and people who would provide that companionship. I see the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, shaking her head. There are organisations and people who would do something about that.

It comes down to the point I made last week. We are saying that, if your life is terrible and you get a terminal illness diagnosis, under the Bill, you are more likely to want to end your life with assistance than someone whose life is great. That is a terrible thing for us to do. The noble and learned Lord does not agree with me; that is fine. The House will have to make a decision, and I think that the position that we have set out with these amendments would lead to a better Bill and a better society than the one he is setting out. We will keep making that point and attempting to move him to that position.

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we are meant to be having brief questions here; these are not brief questions.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, it is far easier to develop a code of practice over time and change it in the context of changes in the environment. It is much more difficult to change a law by statute, which means it has to be brought back into both Houses of Parliament, so I do not really think that the point the noble Baroness just made is valid.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, having listened to this debate, I am struck that there seems to be a fair bit of consensus. Thinking back to the arrangement of business discussion we had about the pace before this debate, I have listened to the number of people who quoted Kim Leadbeater and her uncomfortableness about making these decisions on Zoom. It strikes me that if she had followed through on that uncomfortableness and put into the Bill a clear presumption that these decisions should be taken face to face, with some exceptions that I will elaborate on in a minute, we would not have needed this debate and we would be moving at a faster pace. There is perhaps a lesson there for the noble and learned Lord: if more cognisance had been taken about some of these concerns at an earlier stage, we would have moved at a faster pace.

The only reason why these amendments exists, why we have debated them and why the noble Lord, Lord Birt, referenced how important a decision this is to get right is that this issue has not already been addressed. I will just leave that there as a possible reason why there are as many amendments as there are to this lengthy Bill and why the debate is necessary: it is because it has not already been done. I will leave that for noble Lords to think about.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

I have one note of question. We are all quoting Kim Leadbeater and how she felt about the Oregon example, but, in fact, it may be that she was not talking about the issue of videolinking but about assessments that were done solely on the basis of paperwork. I think we need to find out exactly what Kim Leadbeater was saying before we jump to conclusions about whether the promoters of this Bill have been neglectful in the way that they have dealt with that issue.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point which illustrates the importance of being able to ask people questions directly rather than hearing reports of what they have said or seeing it on a video call. That is the importance of in-person conversation and the ability to ask questions and hear answers so that you know what people actually think. I think the noble Baroness has illustrated and evidenced my point extraordinarily well, and I am grateful for her intervention.

At the beginning of this, the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, referred to medical assessments. She is right in saying that many of them can be done very well remotely. I think that is excellent. I am a great supporter of technology. We do not all believe in quills and pens, and I do not think the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, was entirely suggesting that we were. She might want to reflect on that remark and whether it was entirely well-intentioned, given what the Chief Whip said to us about treating everyone with courtesy and respect. I support the use of technology where it is appropriate.

The problem here is that the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, said that we can all rest assured that doctors would never view this as a routine exercise. The problem is that in other jurisdictions there is quite a lot of evidence that they do. While it is true, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said, that the vast majority of doctors will approach this in absolutely the right way, I am afraid not all doctors are perfect. There was an example yesterday of a paediatrician at Great Ormond Street who had an appalling record. We have to make sure that the law makes sure that patients are properly protected in all cases, not just in the vast majority of them. Where I disagree with her slightly is that this is a policy decision, not a medical decision. Whether assessments should be face to face, either in every case or that the presumption should be that they are, is a policy decision, rightly for Parliament, not for clinicians. It should be informed by listening to clinicians, but it should also be informed by listening to evidence from the patient experience, so ably set out by the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Berger.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, gave her own testimony that she has had to make decisions in these cases, and I was very struck by her view that we should certainly have a presumption that these decisions should be taken face to face. I was very struck by listening to her on previous occasions. Her experience on these matters carries a lot of weight. I also listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, when he set out the GMC’s advice. Decisions for patients with a terminal illness about a course of action that will lead to the end of their life seem to me to fall squarely within the set of cases where you would want a face-to-face appointment, but equally I felt there was good counsel for us and challenge from the noble Baronesses, Lady Jay, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Blackstone, to think of the patient, the person who has the terminal illness who wants a decision. They were right to challenge us on that.

That is why I think, if we look at the balance of amendments in this group, they are very helpful because they set out a span of choices for your Lordships, from saying that every decision has to be taken in person, which I think would be wrong for the reasons that the three noble Baronesses set out, that you have to look at the patient’s views, but equally, I think the present wording is too loose and does not set out a presumption that they should be face to face. I would be very grateful to hear the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on where he thinks he is likely to settle because that will be helpful for all of us when thinking about whether we have to table further amendments. It seems to be a presumption that it is face to face, but with a very limited set of circumstances where it can be not face to face. But we should not accept the presumption in a patient-centred model that the patient always has to go and see the panel or the doctors. It should absolutely be, particularly because so many people in these circumstances are going to be in poor health, that we think of a system that makes sure that when it comes to the panel at least one member of the panel, the independent person, is physically present.

That is important. These amendments touch on two parts of Clause 17. The first is subsection (6), which states:

“The duty under subsection (4)(b) to hear from the person to whom the referral relates does not apply if the panel is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances which justify not hearing from that person”.


That means there are circumstances where the panel does not have to hear from the person at all: not by videolink, not in person, not by pre-recorded video, not at all. That was confirmed to me when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and I were doing a media programme—I think it was “The Week in Westminster”—where I challenged him on this. He confirmed that there were circumstances in which a decision could be taken for someone to seek assisted suicide and the panel would never have to see them at all. I do not think that is right.

The other subsection these amendments touch on is subsection (5), which states:

“Where the panel considers it appropriate for medical reasons, it may make provision for the use of pre-recorded audio or video material”.


That was inserted in the House of Commons by a Back-Bench amendment. It was not very well debated. The fact that it is pre-recorded means that it gets rid of any opportunity for questioning or challenge. The problem I have with the language there is that it says “medical reasons”, it does not say “medical reasons pertaining to the patient”. This is my last point—

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

We are forgetting that we can use the telephone in this circumstance. It is not even that you would have sight of the person, but you could have a pre-recorded telephone call.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful for that. The final point I want to make is that we had experience during the pandemic of too many vulnerable people, people with learning disabilities, having “do not resuscitate” notices put on them by doctors. I do not want to see a system where, if we had a similar circumstance again, these sorts of decisions would be taken remotely at speed. We know from our deliberations in this House, and it is my experience in the other place, that there is no substitute for doing these things face to face where you can challenge people, ask questions, put people under that challenge and get good answers to make good decisions.

I commend this group of amendments to your Lordships, and I look forward to hearing the response of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

I would like to provide a brief clarification on the back of what the noble Lord, Lord Harper, said about the points raised by Ms Leadbeater’s comments about feeling uncomfortable. It came from a report on ITVX on 6 March 2025. An assessment was taking place with Dr Jess Kaan. I believe family members were there, and then she asked the patient’s family to leave the room so that she could privately ask the patient whether it was a settled wish. The patient said yes, it was. I quote directly from the ITV website:

“For Kim Leadbeater, the virtual consultations did not make for comfortable viewing—she says it has made her think about adding an amendment to make clear that consultations with doctors cannot be done via video call and that they should be done in person”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

As a lawyer, going for a presumption is wrong. I think the right thing to do is say something such as the norm is face to face, but there could be circumstances in which you may not do that. You should give maximum flexibility.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Can I just illustrate, perhaps, to the noble and learned Lord why people are so nervous? In the Commons, at Second Reading and for much of the Committee stage, MPs were told that the panel would have to speak to the patient. Amendments were tabled subsequently—the ones I talked about—which then allowed the panel to accept pre-recorded video and waive hearing from the applicant entirely in those undefined exceptional circumstances. I absolutely accept the argument against a blanket position, but if there was a rebuttable presumption that it should be face to face and some circumstances were set out, which could be developed with case law, from listening to the debate, it seems that that would command widespread support from the Committee and would deal both with people’s concerns and, rightly, the patient-centred approach that the three noble Baronesses set out for noble Lords.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

In relation to the noble Lord’s point about the imposition of subsection (6), the Bill currently says that the panel

“must (subject to subsection (6)) hear from, and may question, the person to whom the referral relates”,

so it has to question the person, though not necessarily in person. Subsection (6), which he referred to, says:

“The duty … to hear from the person … does not apply if the panel is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances which justify not hearing from that person”.


That was added during Committee, because a Member of the Committee described the circumstances of his own mother, I think. That is why it happened. But I will note what the noble Lord says. I do not think I will go for a presumption, but I hear what he says.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord talked about questioning; this is important, because I think he slightly misspoke. Subsection (5) says:

“Where the panel considers it appropriate for medical reasons, it may make provision for the use of pre-recorded audio or video material”.


The problem with that is that you lose any ability to ask questions, which is critical. That was added afterwards—after people had heard these concerns—and it went backwards. Will the noble and learned Lord reflect on that? If he is going to table an amendment, I ask him to make sure that it reflects the debate that he has heard this morning in your Lordships’ Committee.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Obviously, you cannot ask questions under subsection (6), so it is exactly the same point. The point being made in subsections (5) and (6) is that the panel recognises that there are circumstances in which questioning is not possible. I do not know what additional point the noble Lord was making.

--- Later in debate ---

My noble and learned friend can wipe out many of the amendments, and he can wipe out the ones he has actually tabled by operating the policy of the Government he was a member of. Clause 1 stands apart, and I agree that it is a major junction of the Bill. From now on, the sponsor can get up to speed and get the Bill ready for the Commons, or he can run out of time. It is his call, not ours.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I had not intended to say anything, but I was provoked—in a nice way—by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and his advice, which was well meant, to the sponsor of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I agree with him, but I think a bit more work is required.

I referred earlier to the letter that the noble and learned Lord sent to Members of the House. I urge him to test his mailing list, because it did not go to all Members; I received a copy of it only from another Member, and it would be helpful if we all received a copy. I now hear from my noble friend Lord Deben that he has not received it at all.

I have two things to say. First, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, about the Delegated Powers Committee’s recommendations. It was pretty scathing about the number of powers the Bill gives to Ministers with very little oversight. If I am being fair, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has engaged extensively with the recommendations of the committee in what he has set out. That is the good bit.

But I do not think the noble and learned Lord has really taken on board the point the committee made because he has largely, as I see in his amendments, preserved the Bill’s delegated skeletal architecture. Rather than limiting executive power and putting safeguards and limits in the Bill, he has added in all sorts of things, such as scrutiny and consultation, at the back end. He has not actually got the point, which is that the Bill should not have those delegated powers in the first place. Exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said, I humbly suggest accepting what the committee said and following its recommendations. That would be helpful.

The second point is about pace. The Delegated Powers Committee reported in September last year, and only half way through Committee we got a letter from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, setting out his response to it. My experience as a Minister was that if we had received the report from the Delegated Powers Committee, as the Minister I would have been expected to have my response ready at the start of Committee—or, frankly, Members of your Lordships’ House would have stood up and said some very disobliging things.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

The noble Lord would have had a whole department and civil servants behind him at that time.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I have two points to make on that intervention from the noble Baroness. First, on several occasions the noble and learned Lord has made reference to quite a significant number of officials that he has had working with him, helping him draft clauses and so forth. If the argument is that that is still not enough resource, that rather supports my contention—which I have made from the beginning—that the extent and nature of this legislation makes it absolutely not suitable for a Private Member’s Bill, and it should have been a government Bill. As I said, the noble and learned Lord has had extensive support from not just one but a number of government departments in helping him draft it.

My second and final point is on the issues that have arisen so far in Committee, particularly the issues that have arisen on Clause 1, which I think is why it is relevant to bring it up on the Clause 1 stand part debate. The noble and learned Lord referenced them in his letter, but he has not yet been in a position to set out what his amendments are going to be. He said that he will make them available as soon as he possibly can. That is good, and I welcome that, but, until we see them, we are not in a position to know whether further amendments need to be tabled for later in Committee or on Report. I finish by saying that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. The extent to which we can now make progress is going to be largely governed by the extent to which the noble and learned Lord the sponsor of the Bill engages with the very fair criticisms that have been made across the Committee. We will listen carefully to what he says in response to this debate and in subsequent groups.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, I think it is right, as my noble friend Lord Rooker said, that this clause stand part debate is an opportunity for a reset and a rethink about how we are approaching the Bill and the way we are prioritising the arguments. Where I slightly take issue with my noble friend is that I do not think it is helpful to apportion blame. We are where we are with this Bill now, and we are all under the clear impression and instruction that, if the Committee wants to change the Bill, whether those who oppose it or those who support it, we have to get it to Report so that we can do that and then send it back to the Commons improved and amended.

On the question of delegation, I worked with my noble friend Lord Blencathra—I will call him that—on the reports on delegated legislation, and they were extremely important. What we have discovered in this Bill, as the amendments have been put forward, is that there is a difficult balance to be achieved between what goes into the Bill on the principle and the design—our task in this House is to make every Bill workable—and what has been left to delegation. As a result of the nature of the Bill, the behavioural issues that are raised by it, and the extraordinary personal and exceptional circumstances when we are dealing with people in the last months of their life—which we should never lose sight of, no matter what we are debating and how technical and process-driven it is—we have to think about the balance between what is workable because it is in the Bill and will stand in law and what has to be left to delegation going forward and therefore can be amended as circumstances change. That is the situation the Australians find themselves in. We have a lot to learn, as we have already learned, from Australian medics who have told us how they are managing the Bill and what an extraordinary benefit it has been. That is on the public record.

All I would say, before my noble friend Lord Blencathra possibly opposes me, although I hope not, is that this is an opportunity to look at the amendments that are coming forward and the priorities we are attaching to them and whether we can triage them in some way. My noble friend Lord Rooker is right that a lot of these early amendments can fall away, because we have addressed the principle. Can we focus on what it will now take to agree to improve the Bill, so that we can have shared trust across the Committee that this is about improving the Bill and not delaying it to the point that it will never become law?

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Moved by

[Lord Harper]

70: Clause 2, page 2, line 3, after “disease” insert “or injuries”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to include those who suffer unbearable injuries likely to result in death and will be particularly relevant to military personnel and those suffering industrial injuries.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, in moving my Amendment 70, I will also speak to my Amendment 78 and to Amendment 829 from my noble friend Lord Sandhurst. The first two amendments were originally tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, who was unable to be here last week—although we did not get to them then—so I have taken them over in my name.

I will explain to noble Lords why they have been tabled. They are responding to concerns raised by David Green, a barrister specialising in industrial disease cases, and Michael Rawlinson KC, who wrote to a number of Peers, alerting us to the fact that the current drafting of the Bill can negatively affect some victims of occupational diseases. I will set out that concern and then the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, can, I hope, respond to it in a more detailed way than he did in the letter that he circulated to Peers in the past day or so. I will also raise a couple of related issues that we will come to later in our debates and that concern similar issues.

The reference in the amendments is to “injuries” or “disease” that people get during their working life. The reason for including those words is to raise the following issue. If victims of occupational diseases opt for assisted suicide, their dependants, under my reading of it, would probably lose their right to sue whoever caused their disease under the Fatal Accidents Act 1976, unless this Bill specifically provided otherwise, which it does not currently.

I will give noble Lords an idea of the size of the issue. In 2023, 2,218 people in Britain died of mesothelioma, which is the prime fatal occupational disease. It is a fatal cancer caused exclusively by asbestos. By way of comparison, that is considerably more than the 1,624 road deaths that year and we know how seriously the Government take that issue; they have just published an entire road safety strategy to reduce that number. Many more died of lung cancer with asbestos as a causative factor, or of respiratory failure secondary to asbestosis or pleural thickening, or of other occupational diseases.

Since virtually all instances of mesothelioma are caused by asbestos exposure, and most asbestos exposure was occupational, most victims can sue a former employer—in reality usually represented by an insurer. The damages recovered are an important way of paying for medical and nursing care and, importantly, of providing for surviving dependants. Claims arising from these occupational diseases can be pursued during the lifetime of the victim or by their families after their death under the Fatal Accidents Act 1976 and the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1934. A good deal of claims are pursued after death in this way for the benefit of families, partly because the prognosis following a diagnosis of mesothelioma is, sadly, relatively short. That is why so many families have to seek the damages rather than the victim being able to do so.

The key point is that the dependants of a deceased person can sue if, and only if,

“death is caused by any wrongful act, neglect or default which is such as would (if death had not ensued) have entitled the person injured to maintain an action and recover damages”.

That is in Section 1(1) of the Fatal Accidents Act. The requirement is that the breach of duties caused the death, but the law that has developed on that section requires an unbroken chain of causation between the defendant’s breach of duty and the death if the dependants of the deceased are to recover damages. In general, an individual’s decision to end their life by suicide breaks the chain of causation between a defendant’s earlier breach of duty and the death. In other words, the law considers that the death has been caused by the choice of the victim and not by the negligence of the defendant.

There are narrow exceptions to this rule—for example, where the defendant’s breach was of a duty to prevent suicide, as it was in the Reeves case, or where the defendant causes a psychiatric injury that itself causes the suicide. But where an individual has full capacity—we know that they must have if they have used this Bill, if it becomes an Act, because we have debated that at length—and the defendant’s duty was decades in the past, the common law would regard a freely made choice to end their life as a novus actus interveniens. Forgive me if I mispronounced that, not being a lawyer, as I have said on many occasions. It is a new and different cause, breaking the chain of causation.

That would mean that the person who died of fatal mesothelioma would have their cause of death recorded by the coroner as an industrial disease, but Clause 38 as drafted makes provision for the cause of death in these cases to be recorded for coronial and certification purposes as an assisted death and excludes this cause from the category of unnatural deaths, meaning that there is no inquest. That means that the assisted deaths will necessarily not be certificated as being caused by industrial disease, even if that were the cause of the terminal illness that led the deceased to be eligible for an assisted death.

That means that, under common law and the Fatal Accidents Act, it would break the chain of causation between the former employer’s negligence and the victim’s ultimate death. That means that a victim of an occupational cancer with a limited life expectancy who would meet the criteria in the Bill—and who would probably face a painful and unpleasant death, even though that is not a criterion in the Bill, as we have debated—has a dilemma. They have a choice between prolonging their suffering but preserving their family’s right to damages and ending their suffering but losing a right potentially worth hundreds of thousands of pounds to the people they leave behind. At the moment, that is not dealt with anywhere in the Bill.

I have a specific question about that, and I will refer in a minute to what the noble and learned Lord said in his letter. But I also want to ask whether there are other areas where similar issues have not been thought about. Two come to mind, the first of which is members of the Armed Forces. I tabled an amendment, which will come up later, because the compensation schemes in the Armed Forces again would not, in my understanding, pay out if somebody got an occupational disease because of their military service. If they were to seek an assisted suicide, that would preclude them and their dependants from receiving compensation under that scheme. That is even more particularly a failure given the duty of care that the state owes to those who put their lives at risk on its behalf.

I would also be interested in understanding the interaction between this and the Government’s statutory diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme. In cases where there is no employer or insurer still in existence, or they cannot be identified, there is a statutory scheme, which I know a bit about; I took the regulations through Parliament as a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions. That pays out on diagnosis. It means, potentially, someone whose employer was still around and on the hook who sought an assisted suicide would do themselves or their dependants out of compensation, whereas somebody whose employer or insurer was not around or not traceable and who qualified under the statutory scheme, which is paid out on diagnosis, would actually not do themselves— I think—out of the compensation. That seems an invidious position based on complete chance.

I do not know whether that has been thought about by the sponsors of the Bill. I would be interested to know the specific answers to those questions and whether there are other areas like this which have not been considered. If this had been a government Bill, as part of the process, other government departments would have looked at it, thought about these issues and would have made sure they were dealt with.

My final point is that the noble and learned Lord referenced this and dealt with it a bit in the letter that he circulated. He thanked my noble friend Lord Sandhurst and the noble Lord, Lord Hendy—whose name, as I said, was originally on these amendments—for their conversations. He said that he had tabled amendments to Clause 47, the reporting section of this Bill, which would require an early report about the impact. I welcome that, but I do not think it goes far enough.

If this Bill goes on to the statute book, there will be people whose legal position will be put at risk and damaged by what is in it. That is not going to be remedied by a report. If the report comes out and says “Yes, there is a problem”, it will require further primary legislation to fix it. It would be better if we understood what the issue is now and, if there is an issue, we should make sure there is an amendment tabled for Report which would deal with it—both for the Fatal Accidents Act and members of the Armed Forces.

In this area, it would be helpful if—I do not think this breaches the Government’s neutral position on the Bill—any other similar areas were identified so that we could deal with them with amendments on Report. That would be welcome. That was my purpose in tabling these two amendments. It is a very important area, and I look forward in due course to the answers from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I beg to move.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I will follow my noble friend and, I hope, be reasonably concise.

I asked for my Amendment 829 to be grouped with these amendments as it covers the same substantive ground. It was helpful that, about a fortnight ago, with the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, I met the noble and learned Lord, and we discussed this situation. Broadly speaking, there was acceptance. As I understand it, the sponsor of this Bill will be bringing forward an amendment which will tidy up various loose ends. The word “review” will be changed to “assessment”, there will be reference to victims of occupational diseases and one or two other tidying-up matters.

As has been explained—I can do this briefly, but it is important—as the Bill is drafted, it is highly probable that a victim of an occupational disease, such as asbestosis caused by the negligence of some tortfeasor, will, if they go down the assisted dying route, lose the right to recover damages for the injury that has put them in the position where they wish to die. This will also mean that their heirs and successors—their family—will lose that right to the Fatal Accidents Act claim.

If someone is suffering from a horrible illness, they may decide that they cannot bear it any longer and that they wish to terminate their life just a few months before the end. It would be quite wrong if their family and dependants, who deserve the money to cover themselves for the whole of the life that that person would have enjoyed but for the injury that created the asbestosis, should lose that entitlement to compensation because the victim has gone down the route of assisted dying. As the law stands—it has been to the Supreme Court or the House of Lords not in this context exactly but in others—it is quite clear that this would be a break in the chain of causation. It seems such to me and to others who are interested in this field.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am afraid that I am not the Government. On the issue of risk, my proposal—although I recognise that some people want to go further—sets out a sensible course to reach the aim that everyone wants to reach, which is that the problem does not arise. One will have to look at the extent to which one has to warn against that problem when one sees where the review goes, because the question of what warnings have to be given will have to be addressed only at the point when the review has already reported and any action has been taken on it.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a good debate, and it has raised a very important issue. The noble Lord, Lord Hendy, being a distinguished KC, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra spotted that I had not in my remarks pushed the injuries point. I confess that I am torn on that, because some injuries are effectively caused by employment, like mesothelioma where asbestos ingestion through employment results in an illness, as defined in this Bill already. Of course, there are other injuries that can be received in an employment context, where they would not qualify as an illness but where the outcomes may be very similar. But I do recognise all the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, so I am torn on that.