Prison and Probation Inspectorate

Lord Gove Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2016 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

I am pleased to announce that Peter Clarke has been appointed as Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons for three years, commencing 1 February 2016, and Dame Glenys Stacey has been appointed as Her Majesty’s chief inspector of probation for three years, commencing 1 March 2016.

Peter Clarke is a retired senior police officer, who served in the Metropolitan Police Service for more than 30 years. He rose to the rank of assistant commissioner and also served as head of the anti-terrorist branch and national co-ordinator of terrorist investigations. In 2014 he was appointed education commissioner for Birmingham, to conduct an inquiry into the allegations concerning Birmingham schools arising from the “Trojan Horse” letter. Peter also served on the board of the Charity Commission until January 2016.

Dame Glenys Stacey is currently the chief executive of Ofqual, the exams regulator in England. She is a solicitor by profession and has 17 years’ experience leading public sector organisations, having previously served as CEO of Standards for England, Animal Health, the Greater Manchester Magistrates’ Court Committee and the Criminal Cases Review Commission. In August 2015 she announced her intention to leave Ofqual when her current term finishes at the end of February 2016.

These appointments have been made after a recruitment process for these posts which followed the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ code of practice. Both roles were advertised online and candidates were then assessed against the criteria for the posts. An independent selection panel produced a shortlist of candidates deemed appointable. As required under the rules, I then selected my preferred candidates from that shortlist. Peter Clarke and Dame Glenys Stacey appeared before the Justice Select Committee, which concluded both were appointable to the roles of HM chief inspector of prisons and HM chief inspector of probation respectively.

Both appointments are subject to security clearance.

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Prisons

Lord Gove Excerpts

Thursday 17th December 2015 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

I will today publish the Government’s response to the Harris review into self-inflicted deaths in custody of 18 to 24-year-olds.

The Government are grateful to Lord Harris of Haringey and the Harris review panel for their report on this important review.

We must never simply accept self-harm and self-inflicted deaths as an inevitable feature of prison life. Reducing the rates of violence, self-harm and deaths in custody is a priority for the National Offender Management Service. I have already made clear that our prison system needs urgent reform. I have also asked Charlie Taylor to review the current system of youth justice. We will be setting out more detail on our plans for reform in due course.

The Government’s response to the Harris review sets out the wide range of action we are taking to reduce self-harm and self-inflicted deaths in custody, including giving greater support to those with mental health vulnerabilities who come into contact with the criminal justice system and improving the management of “safer cells” in prisons. We are also increasing the number of prison staff. Over the last year we recruited 2,340 prison officers, a net increase of 540.

The Harris review, and our response, will help to address the serious problems of self-harm and self-inflicted deaths as we develop our wider reforms to make prisons places of decency, hope and rehabilitation.

The response will be laid today and copies will be available in the Vote and Printed Paper Offices. The response will also be published online at: www.gov.uk

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Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Gove Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

5. If he will make an assessment of the effect of the criminal courts charge on access to justice; and if he will make a statement.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

Last week, I announced that the Ministry of Justice will review the entire structure and purpose of the financial penalties and orders handed down by courts to offenders, with a view to considering options for simplification and improvement. The Government have listened carefully to the concerns raised about the criminal courts charge, and in the light of those concerns, I decided to pause the imposition of the charge while the wider review is carried out.

[Tulip Siddiq]

May I take the opportunity to congratulate the Secretary of State on scrapping yet another proposal put forward by his predecessor, but may I also remind him that he was Chief Whip at the time and voted for the policy? Individuals have incurred high levels of personal debt, which they are unlikely to be able to pay back, because of this cost. Bearing that in mind, will the Secretary of State review and waive the outstanding payments, which do nothing but blight the finances of our justice system and place an administrative cost on the taxpayer?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her kind words, and for reminding the House that, while I was not an unprecedented success as Chief Whip, I did manage to vote with the Government the majority of the time while I was in that post. It is the case that people will have paid penalties under the criminal courts charge. That was the law at the time, and it will be the law until 24 December. After that, people will not pay the criminal courts charge.

[Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)]

Members on both sides of the House will be pleased that the fixed charge will no longer apply from later this month, but does the Secretary of State agree that it is right that convicted criminals should contribute not only towards supporting victims, but towards the running costs of our criminal courts?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. One of the reasons why we are reviewing the way in which the court orders penalties and fines to be paid is that there is at least a triple purpose: of course penalties need to be paid in order to ensure that people recognise that they have crossed the threshold of the law and need to be punished, but the money raised also goes to help with both the administration of justice and the support of victims.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

20. Until 24 December, magistrates will be forced to impose what is now a discredited charge, which has caused many of them to resign. What advice does the Secretary of State give those people in the meantime?

[Michael Gove]

To obey the law of the land. It is my responsibility to uphold the rule of law. We sought to take steps as quickly as possible after a proper review of the criminal courts charge and after the spending review to suspend the operation of the charge. Twenty-one days after the requisite statutory instrument was laid—that is, on 24 December—there will be no further imposition of the charge.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

May I, too, welcome the Lord Chancellor’s fifth U-turn—or is it his sixth? I note that it is somewhat unorthodox to rehabilitate one’s own reputation by trashing one’s predecessor. Will he now clean up the mess his Government have made, rather than walk away from it? When will the charge be repealed by primary legislation? Why is it still being imposed —it does not have to be—up to Christmas? Will the charges already imposed be remitted? Will the magistrates who resigned in protest be reinstated? Will he tell us the cost of the debacle, and how much it adds to the £15 million he has already wasted on the privatisation of fines collection and the secure college?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. That was something of a multifaceted question, but I think we can rely on the Secretary of State to respond with his customary elegant simplicity.

[Michael Gove]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. You are quite right that there were more questions in that sally than in a multiple-choice maths GCSE paper.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman still wouldn’t know the answers.

[Michael Gove]

Yes; I hesitate to say what the mark would be.

We moved as expeditiously as possible to suspend the charge. The best legal advice available to the Department suggested that this was the most effective way of relieving magistrates of the obligation to impose it.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

6. What plans he has to reform HM Courts and Tribunals Service.

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[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

The investment in prison reform announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the spending review is designed to make it easier to get prisoners learning and working. As a result, I recently met the Employers’ Forum for Reducing Re-offending to discuss how we can improve employment opportunities for ex-offenders.

[Andrew Stephenson]

New Call Telecom in Pendle is working with Spacious Place, a social enterprise, to help young offenders at Forest Bank prison with training and employment opportunities. Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming New Call Telecom’s work to improve rehabilitation and get young offenders back into society and into employment?

[Michael Gove]

I wholeheartedly welcome its work, and I commend its efforts to other companies. About 20% of companies employ ex-offenders, but as many as 90% of companies have expressed an interest in doing so. I suspect that the example set by the employer in my hon. Friend’s constituency will inspire more companies to support ex-offenders into work.

[Sir David Amess]

Given that prison is an expensive option, does my right hon. Friend agree that it makes moral sense to give people who wish to turn their lives around the opportunity to work? Does he also agree that that makes sound business sense, because those people are often hard-working and very loyal employees?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is economically sensible to ensure that ex-offenders are in work—about 22% of those in receipt of out-of-work benefits are ex-offenders—and it makes moral sense to give people dignity and a chance to redeem themselves by contributing economically to society.

[Rebecca Harris]

My right hon. Friend will be aware of my interest in the work of the Cascade Foundation, which was founded by my constituent Jackie Hewitt-Main, and does amazing work in educating and rehabilitating offenders with learning needs. Will he meet me and the Cascade Foundation so that it can share some of its observations about ways we could further improve and streamline rehabilitation through education in prison and on release?

[Michael Gove]

I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and her constituent. Many outstanding firms, from Cisco Systems to Greggs the bakers, Halfords and DHL, are doing more and more to employ offenders, and we must reduce the bureaucratic burdens standing in their way.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

When I sat on the Justice Committee earlier this summer, I visited Holloway prison and saw how release on temporary licence allowed women to carry out jobs that led to employment on the outside, and to stability. That worked extremely well in Holloway because the transport links are so good, but how can the Secretary of State ensure that such facilities are consistently good across all women’s prisons in the UK?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. I would like to see an expansion of release on temporary licence across the prison estate, not just in women’s prisons. We must ensure an appropriate assessment of the risk posed by releasing offenders in such a way, but we must also reinforce the initiative of prison governors who want people out there working and accustoming themselves to life on the outside.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I beg the Secretary of State not to forget what has worked in the past? Will he look at the experience of British Gas, Ford and a cluster of companies in the very famous Reading prison, which I believe is due for closure, working with young offenders? The employment rate was amazingly successful. Let us make sure that that model is not forgotten.

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. In my constituency, HMP Coldingley works with a group of disparate employers to provide offenders with the chance to contribute again. He makes a very important point.

[Tom Elliott (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) (UUP)]

What specific measures are being put in place to reduce the bureaucracy that companies have to overcome to employ offenders?

[Michael Gove]

The first thing we need to do is give governors a greater sense of freedom so that they are able to invite employers in, ensure they can make use of prisoners while they are still on the prison estate and employ them through the gate. Specific reforms we hope to bring forward in the new year will give more governors precisely that freedom and flexibility.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

21. Does the Secretary of State agree that the key to improving employment in prisons is giving more power and control to governors over what goes on in their prisons, including the accountability and control to ensure that the quality is appropriate?

[Michael Gove]

I absolutely agree. I think many Members will be aware of the Clink Restaurant social enterprise. A visionary prison governor at High Down in Surrey and a succession of great governors at HMP Brixton have helped it to expand. One of the most impressive prisons I have visited, HMP Parc in Bridgend, is also part of this initiative—all because of great governors leading institutions that we can learn from.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

8. What support his Department provides to military veterans in prison.

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[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, let me say that I hope the whole House agrees that we are all in the debt of the dedicated prison officers and prison staff who will be working on Christmas day and over the Christmas season. In that spirit, let me also congratulate the newly elected leader of the Prison Officers Association, Mr Mike Rolfe. My Department looks forward to working with him to improve the situation of all prison officers. They do an invaluable job, and we should support them in every way we can.

[Valerie Vaz]

I associate myself with the Justice Secretary’s remarks. Secure colleges, criminal court charges, court fine enforcement and Saudi Arabian contracts— £40.7 million has been wasted so far. Will the Justice Secretary reveal to the House the full costs of those policy changes, and will he tell us which Minister is responsible for that waste of public money?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady started very well, in a bipartisan way. The point about each of the policies that she mentioned is that we made those decisions in both the national interest and the taxpayer’s interest.

[Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)]

T3. Paul Gambaccini, Jim Davidson and Jimmy Tarbuck have all spoken about the appalling trauma and stress involved in the conducting of an investigation, following allegations, in the full glare of publicity, and then the closing of the case because no further action has been taken. That is quite apart from the appalling collusion of the BBC and the police over the investigation of Cliff Richard. Have the Government given any consideration to turning the clock back, so that such investigations can be conducted with no publicity until the person concerned has been charged?

[Michael Gove]

I absolutely take account of my hon. Friend’s point. The Government’s position is that, in general, there should be a right to anonymity before the point of charge, but the decision to release the name or details of a suspect in an investigation is an operational one for the police to make. Ministers should not interfere in the operational independence of the police, but I think that the case made by my hon. Friend and others is important. It is vital for us to recognise that the right to be regarded as innocent should be respected by everyone involved in the administration of justice.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

Working Links, which runs three community rehabilitation companies in Wales and the west of England, is announcing redundancies of up to 44% of staff—some 600 jobs. If these redundancies go ahead, what will the Secretary of State do to ensure that standards of service and the safety of the public are maintained?

[Michael Gove]

The transforming rehabilitation reforms, which were introduced in the last Parliament by my predecessor, have enhanced the quality of probation support that offenders enjoy, and we needed to make sure the improvements that have been made are built on. Each of the individual community rehabilitation companies will make their own decisions about the mix and qualifications of staff required in order to enhance that service, but these transforming rehabilitation reforms are welcome and are in the interests of offenders and of community safety.

[Andy Slaughter]

The Lord Chancellor will have seen the reports today of the outrageous treatment of Andrew Waters, whose right to a private life under article 8 of the European convention on human rights was breached by East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust, which placed a “do not resuscitate” order on him, listing his Down’s syndrome and learning difficulties among the reasons. Given that these are exactly the rights the Government wish to opt out of, is it not time, in the week we celebrate international Human Rights Day, for the Lord Chancellor to do another of his famed U-turns and keep the Human Rights Act?

[Michael Gove]

The case the hon. Gentleman raises is indeed very serious, and I cannot imagine any human rights legislation, or indeed any legal architecture that any of the parties in this House would subscribe to, which would in any way countenance the sort of behaviour he has described.

[Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

T5. A recent report revealed there had been nearly 400 illegal Traveller encampments across Warwickshire in the last three years, including four in Alveston and Bedworth in my constituency this summer alone, and these are costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of pounds. The previous Justice Secretary pledged to address this issue, so will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss what progress has been made, and how the rights of local businesses and residents can always be put first?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

T2. Many magistrates resigned over the fees that the Secretary of State has now reversed his decision on, partly because they felt people were pleading guilty when they were innocent, as the fees would be excessive. In taking his decision, what estimate did the Secretary of State make of how many innocent people pleaded guilty during that time?

[Michael Gove]

I take account of the hon. Gentleman’s point. In the circumstances, we have to let the judgment of those courts rest, but I invite every single magistrate who felt, for whatever reason, that they could not sit on the bench as a result of that policy to reconsider and revisit their decision.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

T7. Wimbledon is the home of one of London’s probation service resource centres, where there is a real focus on providing ex-offenders with the education and skills they need. Given the importance of education and skills to the rehabilitation of ex-offenders, does the Minister agree that it is essential that the next head of the probation service is someone who can really concentrate on that and on vocational training, as that is what the service needs?

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[Mr Speaker]

Order. There was rather too little regard being paid to the fact that we were listening to a question from the Chair of the Justice Committee, a point of which I hope hon. Members will take proper note in future.

[Michael Gove]

There is broad bipartisan support for the idea of problem-solving courts. Lord Woolf, when he was Lord Chief Justice, and David Blunkett, when he was Home Secretary, both agreed that it was important to explore the potential of problem-solving courts, not just to keep our streets safe but to ensure that offenders changed their lives. I had the great privilege of meeting Judge Alex Calabrese last night. He has been very successful in this area, and I know that the Justice Committee has highlighted his work in America. We will make an announcement shortly on the joint work that the current Lord Chief Justice and I will take forward in this area.

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

T8. The Government’s own figures reveal that the number of serious crimes committed by violent and sex offenders who are being monitored after leaving prison has risen by more than 28%, and that some 222 offenders under supervision in the community were charged with crimes including murder and manslaughter and with sexual offences in 2014-15. The National Association of Probation Officers has said that this is partly due to the privatisation of probation, which means that the exchange of information between agencies is not quick enough. What urgent steps is the Minister taking to address this issue?

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[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

I recently wrote to the Lord Chancellor and received an uncharacteristically non-committal reply, unbelievable though that may seem. I therefore ask him again: does he believe the maximum tariff for child cruelty, which is set at 10 years, is too low, and will he use the upcoming criminal justice Bill to raise it to 14 years?

[Michael Gove]

Normally I like to give my hon. Friend satisfaction, but on this occasion I am afraid I will have to maintain the enigmatic prevarication that characterised my previous communication with him.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

I hope the Secretary of State will be aware of the High Court ruling of 26 November on the legality of the benefit cap when applied to disabled people and their carers. What advice will the Justice Secretary give the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in the light of that ruling?

[Michael Gove]

I will discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State later today.

New Member

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath required by law:

James McMahon, for Oldham West and Royton.

Bill Presented

Fracking (Measurement and Regulation of Impacts) (Air, Water and Greenhouse Gas Emissions) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Geraint Davies, supported by Mike Weir, Jonathan Edwards, Kate Osamor, Tulip Siddiq, Neil Coyle, Caroline Lucas, Chris Evans, Dawn Butler, Mr Mark Williams, Dr Rupa Huq and John Mc Nally presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to measure and regulate the impact of unconventional gas extraction on air and water quality and on greenhouse gas emissions; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 January 2016; and to be printed (Bill 105).

Courts

Lord Gove Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

The courts take money from offenders in a number of ways, including fines, the victim surcharge, compensation orders, prosecution costs and the criminal courts charge.

This array of penalties, fines and charges is complex and confusing. I have therefore asked my Department to review the entire structure, and purpose, of court-ordered financial impositions for offenders, in order to bring greater simplicity and clarity to the system.

This review will seek to achieve three goals: giving the judiciary greater discretion in setting financial impositions; making financial penalties a more effective tool in delivering improved noncustodial sentences; and ensuring that money raised through financial penalties plays an appropriate—and sustainable—role in supporting taxpayers to meet the costs of running the courts.

The review will consider how to ensure offenders make a fair contribution. The criminal courts charge was introduced in order to ensure that those who break the law make a financial contribution to the costs of seeing justice done.

The basic principle behind the policy—that those who have broken the law should bear some of the costs of running the criminal courts—is right. However, as the Justice Select Committee set out in its recent report, there have been concerns raised about how this has worked in practice.

I am today laying in Parliament an amending statutory instrument which will mean that, as of 24 December, the criminal courts charge will no longer be imposed. Our review will consider alternative ways of ensuring that criminals pay their fair share.

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Prisons

Lord Gove Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

Social reform is at the heart of this Government’s programme, and nowhere is that more true than in criminal justice.

We are embarking on a radical reform of our prisons to rehabilitate offenders, cut crime and enhance public safety. Investment for nine new prisons, which will have better facilities for work and education, has already been announced.

Today I can also announce a new beginning for female offenders with women prisoners serving their sentences in more humane surroundings better designed to keep them out of crime. We will close the inadequate and antiquated Holloway prison and invest in 21st-century solutions to the problems of criminality.

For women offenders in London, we are now in a position to hold them on remand in the more modern facilities at HMP Bronzefield. We will also reopen newly refurbished facilities at HMP Downview as a women’s prison later next year. This will allow sentenced women to be held in an environment that is more appropriate for many of those currently sent to Holloway. Both provide a better setting for children visiting their mothers. Both are well located with good transport links to London.

I am very grateful to the hard-working staff in the prison who have deservedly won praise for their work. Despite their inspirational efforts, Holloway’s design and physical state do not provide the best environment for the rehabilitation of women offenders. Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons last published inspection of Holloway noted that the

“size and poor design make it a very difficult establishment to run”.

I am extremely mindful that Holloway holds many vulnerable women. For that reason, no one will be moved immediately and we will not close the prison until services similar to those currently provided for women offenders are in place elsewhere. We expect the prison to close by summer next year.

The closure of Holloway underlines our determination to invest in a high-quality, modern prison estate with better facilities to help prisoners turn away from crime.

[HCWS326]

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Gove Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

1. What his policy is on the level of autonomy provided to prison governors; and if he will make a statement.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

I believe that prisons need a new and unremitting emphasis on rehabilitation and redemption. The best way to secure that is to give greater freedoms to prison governors. I would like to give governors more flexibility in managing their budgets and overseeing work and education in custody. With greater freedom must come sharper accountability, so that governors are held to account for their prison’s performance.

[Andrew Rosindell]

Does the Secretary of State agree that a central cause of criminal behaviour and violence within prisons is an inherent sense of disfranchisement from society? What steps will he take in implementing his reforms to encourage prison governors to instil a sense of British pride, national belonging and responsibility to the wider nation?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a characteristically acute point. It is vital that prison governors are given the right tools, particularly the capacity to play a greater role in deciding what curriculum prisoners follow, to ensure that prisoners, like any school student, have the chance, through the provision of great education, to appreciate the history of liberties that is so important to our country and our criminal justice system.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I am pleased that the Justice Secretary has said that accountability remains important. Will he consider how we can strengthen prison boards through more community involvement to give local direction to local decisions, while retaining accountability to the director general of the Prison Service and to Ministers?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. It is not only independent monitoring boards that are vital; a strong inspectorate is vital too. He is absolutely right that accountability to the local community matters. Only when prisons are rooted in their communities and forge the sorts of links that ensure that offenders go on to work and contribute to their communities on release can we make sure that prisons fulfil their task of rehabilitation effectively.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Prison governors already have a great role to play in deciding whether somebody should be released on parole, yet nothing is ever fed back to the governors, or anybody else for that matter, to determine whether their judgment was good or flawed. How can we give prison governors more discretion in decisions over whether prisoners should be released when we have no idea whether those prisoners go on to reoffend?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend will be aware that there is a vacancy for the chair of the Parole Board. I would encourage him to—[Interruption.] I encourage others to apply for that post who can ensure that we have a much more rigorous and evidence-led approach to reviewing the grant of parole.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Given the rising trend of suicide in prisons, what advice is being given to governors to allay this serious problem?

[Michael Gove]

This is a very serious problem and the hon. Gentleman is right to raise it. The work that Lord Harris of Haringey has done on self-inflicted deaths in prison has provided a series of recommendations that we are considering as part of our prison reform programme. More broadly, we are aware that the increased use of psychoactive substances in prison is leading to increased levels of self-harm and harm to others. The Psychoactive Substances Bill, which is being taken forward by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice, will play a considerable part in ensuring that our prisons are safer places.

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

Having listened carefully to the last reply, I should say that psychoactive substances are not the only factor. We broadly support the Secretary of State’s aim to increase governor autonomy. I have long believed that governors are the best at finding new ways to reduce reoffending. The big problem that he has—he cannot just blame it on psychoactive substances—is that prisons are becoming very dangerous. So far this year, there have been 95 suicides and seven murders in our prisons. Is it not time that he took a fundamentally new approach? Have not the last six years been a wasted opportunity, dogged by petty interference from the centre? We look forward to him changing that.

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady is right to raise that point. One of the ministerial team’s biggest concerns is the incidence of violence and disorder in many prisons. As she acknowledges, giving prison governors a greater degree of autonomy is critical to changing things, as is a proper understanding of the mix of offenders in our prisons. As the balance of traffic through the courts has changed, a number of offenders who have violent pasts pose particular risks in prison, and we must ensure that prison officers are provided with the tools that they need to keep themselves and others safe. Those will sometimes be technical tools such as body-worn cameras, which are supported by my ministerial colleagues, but sometimes it is about ensuring that people have the support and training that they need to do their job well.

[Callum McCaig (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

2. When he plans to launch his consultation on plans to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998.

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[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

It is right that we find better ways to pay the costs of running our criminal courts, and the introduction of this charge has made it possible to recover some of the costs from offenders, which reduces the burden on taxpayers. The Government are, of course, keeping the operation of the criminal courts charge under review.

[Tulip Siddiq]

The Secretary of State will be aware of disturbing case studies highlighted by campaigners such as the Howard League showing that this charge is putting pressure on people to plead guilty in order to avoid legal costs, thereby restricting access to a free trial. I am pleased to hear that he is reviewing the charge, but will he admit that signing off such an absurd policy should not have happened in the first place?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising this issue, because I know that concerns have been expressed across the House and, indeed, by members of the magistracy and the judiciary, as well as by pressure groups such as the Howard League. That is why we are reviewing the operation of the charge. It is important to stress, however, that our justice system already creates a number of incentives for those who enter early guilty pleas, in order to ensure that the wheels of justice can run more smoothly, but I will continue to listen to the points that the hon. Lady and others make.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend had the opportunity to review collection rates of the criminal court charge, a system that is wholly despised by the lay magistracy? The concerns go beyond inherent unfairness; there are worries that bailiffs will chase debts that will simply be written off and never collected.

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a characteristically pungent point. He is right to say that we have listened to a number of representations from representatives of the magistracy, but we have to balance those concerns against other judgments as well.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

May I help the Secretary of State on the issue of collection? Earlier this year, the courts Minister told me that the minimum net sum that would be raised by the criminal courts charge in this Parliament would be £265 million. Last night, the Chair of the Justice Committee told the BBC that, as well as distorting the criminal justice system for most defendants and sentences, it may well run at a loss. The Secretary of State does not need to review the charge; it is worthless as well as dangerous. Should he not just scrap it now?

[Michael Gove]

I believe in evidence-led policy and it is important that we should look at not just the evidence from the magistracy, but, as the hon. Gentleman points out, the collection rate. The criminal courts charge is generating revenue, which helps ensure that the taxpayer is not the first port of call for supporting the way in which our courts operate, but it is important that we balance all the criteria in making a judgment on the review of the charge. [Interruption.]

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[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

As this is national pro bono week, may I take this opportunity to congratulate and applaud the solicitors and barristers who do so much to represent individuals for free? In particular, may I draw attention to the fact that Baroness Lawrence is paying tribute this week to the lawyers who acted for her pro bono in securing justice for her son Stephen? They have proved that the law is not just a profession, but a vocation for justice.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Many of us were very pleased when, 546 days ago, the Government announced a full review of driving offences and penalties, but we were rather less pleased that it was 546 days ago, and we still have not seen the results of the review. May we please have a date on which we will be able to receive them?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, but it is vital that we look at sentencing in the round to make sure that we make balanced judgments. One of the problems we have sometimes had in the past is that new offences have been created and new sentencing frameworks have been laid down that have led to confusion rather than clarity, and we want to ensure we have swift and certain justice.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

T2. What safeguards and guidelines are in place for the probation service regarding the category of residents at approved premises or bail hostels that are located within residential areas and within one mile of a school?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

It looks likely that by the end of today 90 solicitor firms and 70 of the 85 bidding areas across the country will have started proceedings against the Legal Aid Agency over the award of criminal legal aid contracts. Given that we know, thanks to a whistleblower, that the tendering process was run by junior temporary staff with “very limited” legal training, does the Secretary of State agree with the Criminal Law Solicitors Association chair that if the Government

“were trying to handle it badly”,

they

“couldn’t have done a better job”,

and what chance does he think he has of winning those cases?

[Michael Gove]

It is rare that I ever disagree with the CLSA, but on this occasion I have to differ. The individual referred to as a whistleblower is merely one voice. The voices I have heard from many others, including those who have received their contracts, is that this was a well-run process in the tradition that the LAA has upheld for many years now.

[Andy Slaughter]

Turning from the chaos in the courts to the chaos in our prisons, the Secretary of State will agree with me that prison officers are doing an exceptional job in the most difficult of circumstances. Yesterday I met officers here who told me that, as one put it, as a result of the cuts in funding imposed so far,

“prison officer numbers have been cut to levels where prisoners are taking over the prisons.”

When we see that serious assaults on staff have risen by 42% in the last year, is he not right?

[Michael Gove]

I find myself distressingly often these days agreeing with the hon. Gentleman that our prison officers do a fantastic job. I value the meetings I have with them and the feedback they give me. We have recruited 420 new prison officers in the last 12 months. Of course we keep safety and security in our establishments under review, but as I explained earlier we are taking steps on the use of technology and also on the increased powers that governors will have which I hope will make our prison estate safer and more secure for everyone.

[Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

T4. In evidence to the Justice Committee in July, the Secretary of State confirmed that his Department would be undertaking a review of the Legal Services Act 2007. Can he please confirm today if a date has been set for that review, and if not when the date of the review will be set?

[Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP)]

T3. Yesterday the Prime Minister announced changes to Government policy regarding the use of special guardianship orders. What assurances can the Minister give that this will not inhibit the ability of loving grandparents to assume legal responsibility for their grandchildren?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question. I know he has been campaigning very effectively on increased transparency in the family courts. One of the points the Prime Minister sought to make yesterday is that sometimes special guardianship or other kinship choices will be absolutely right, but there have been cases where special guardianship orders have been granted to grandparents and others who have had limited, and in some cases no, contact beforehand with the child placed in their care, so we do need to keep the system under review.

[Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)]

T6. Does the Minister agree that specialist courts for crimes with high reoffending rates like drugs and sexual offences can offer a number of benefits if implemented correctly, not only by reducing those reoffending rates but also by more sensitive handling of vulnerable witnesses, which can lead to better evidence and fewer cases collapsing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T7. Rehabilitation is likely to be on a smoother path if prisoners have access to good education in custody. What steps is the Department taking, in conjunction with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, to ensure that maths and English are promoted within prisons?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am inclined to take a leaf out of the Education Secretary’s book here. In a speech she is making today, she is making the point that we need to reform our testing system to know how well children are performing when they enter school and when they leave primary school. In our prison estate, we should have tighter monitoring of the educational attainment of prisoners when they arrive in custody and when they leave. I am delighted that we are ad idem.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

T9. Legal aid was withdrawn from refugees who safely reached these shores and needed to be reunited with their families because this was deemed to be a straightforward process. The British Red Cross report entitled “Not So Straightforward” indicates that that is not the case. Has the Secretary of State read the report? Will the Government reintroduce legal aid or will they simplify the process so that legal aid is not required and the process in in fact straightforward?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

T10. The Secretary of State has spoken about achieving swift and certain justice for the families of the victims of dangerous driving. Along with the families of Ross and Clare Simons, who were tragically killed in an incident in my constituency in January 2013, I have been campaigning for the maximum sentence to be raised from 14 years to life imprisonment. Will the Secretary of State meet my constituents and a delegation of interested MPs to discuss this issue?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend has been a particularly assiduous campaigner in respect of this heartbreaking case, and of course I would be delighted to meet him and other colleagues who want to make sure that the law can be changed appropriately.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware of the case of Tara Hudson, the transgender woman who was placed in a men’s prison and then moved to a women’s prison on Friday. Can he explain why it has taken so long to get Tara moved? Will he clarify the guidelines for sentencing procedures for transgender prisoners?

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

Jobs, Friends and Houses is an award-winning initiative on the Fylde coast, which provides ex-offenders with real opportunities to work in the building trade. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating it on its excellent work and seek to support it and other such endeavours in the future?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that fantastic campaign to the attention of the House. In three simple phrases, he and the organisation sum up what ex-offenders need: work, strong relationships and a place to live.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Earlier, the Secretary of State mentioned the recruitment of prison officers. I think that the figure of 420 was used, but that is against a background of a 25% cut in prison officers in the previous Parliament. What is the current shortfall?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)]

Whether or not the criminal courts charge survives in the long term, will the Secretary of State give the most careful and timely consideration in the short term to giving discretion to judges and magistrates as to whether it should be imposed so that they can do justice in the instant case?

[Michael Gove]

As I acknowledged earlier, the criminal courts charge is a cause of concern across the House, but it is also important that we maintain a balance between the funding of our courts coming from the taxpayer and that coming from those who use our courts. My hon. Friend makes a valuable submission on which I shall reflect.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

HMP Northumberland, like many other prisons, is awash with the legal high, spice. It is creating a really dangerous environment for prison officers and offenders alike. What action is the Minister taking to tackle that very dangerous situation?

Saudi Penal System

Lord Gove Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State if he will withdraw from the contract for training needs analysis with the Saudi penal system in the light of recent concerns, particularly the cases of Mohammed al-Nimr, Raif Badawi and Karl Andree?

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. It is important that the resources of the Ministry of Justice are targeted at our programme of domestic public service reform, so, as has previously been announced, we have wound up the work that Just Solutions International, the commercial arm of the National Offender Management Service, has been engaged in. This is in line with our ambition to ensure that the Department’s resources are firmly focused on our domestic priorities. On the commercial work that Just Solutions International had been engaged in with Saudi Arabia, as the House is aware, the final bid was submitted this April, but discussions have been going on since then. We have now reviewed the issue further and decided to withdraw our bid.

[Andy Slaughter]

The power of the urgent question. What a pity, though, that once again a Secretary of State has to be dragged before the House and that what he said was not volunteered by way of ministerial statement. The Secretary of State is trying to establish a reputation as a prison reformer, and now perhaps as a champion of human rights as well. That would be highly commendable and would be better if our prisons were not in a downward spiral of violence, idleness and despair and if the right hon. Gentleman were not intent on repealing the Human Rights Act.

On 25 September, the Leader of the Opposition wrote to the Prime Minister, raising the case of Mohammed al-Nimr. The Secretary of State will be aware that Mr al-Nimr was 17 when he was arrested for peaceful protest and sentenced to death by beheading and then crucifixion. Three weeks later, the Leader of the Opposition is yet to receive a response. That letter also asked for the ending of the contract, so perhaps that response could now be forthcoming. More importantly, Mr al-Nimr remains in solitary confinement, awaiting execution.

The case of Raif Badawi—a blogger sentenced to 1,000 lashes and 10 years in prison for criticising the Saudi regime—is similarly shocking, and today we add to the list the case of Mr Karl Andree. Mr Andree is a 74-year-old British citizen from south London who has been sentenced to 350 lashes by the Saudi Government after spending more than a year in custody. I do not know whether the Secretary of State heard the interview on the “Today” programme this morning with Mr Andree’s youngest son, Simon, which was all the more powerful for being rational and understated. He said there was no doubt in the family’s mind that 350 lashes would kill his father, who needs medical care for his cancer, which he has had three times, and his asthma. Simon said:

“I think my father is at the bottom of the list and the bottom of the pecking order”,

when it comes to the Government. He continued:

“I feel that all the business dealings with Saudi Arabia and the UK are probably taking priority over it. All I can say is that the primary responsibility of the British Government is to their citizens. He is a British citizen and I ask the Government to plead for clemency, for him to be released.”

Will the Secretary of State therefore go further—welcome though his comments were—and explain why the Government ever contemplated entering such a contract; why the reasons for continuing the contract were initially given as “commercial considerations”, subsequently corrected to the “wider interests” of Her Majesty’s Government; why the Prime Minister has not responded to the letter from the Leader of the Opposition; and what is being done in each of the three specific cases I have raised?

We know that these are not isolated cases. Indeed, guidance given to British prisoners in Saudi says that the death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences,

“including murder, rape, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy, adultery, witchcraft and sorcery and can be carried out by beheading with a sword, stoning or firing squad, followed by crucifixion.”

Amnesty International says that at least 175 people have been executed in the last year. It is simply not good enough that human rights get no regard. Of course this is a balancing act, but in the end, the Secretary of State has to take responsibility and he needs to answer the further questions I have put to him today.

[Michael Gove]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising these serious issues and for the appropriately sombre and serious way in which he couched his questions. First, this Government take very seriously questions of human rights, and in particular the obligation to protect the human rights of British citizens abroad. That is why the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), who has responsibility for the middle east, has been talking to Mr Andree’s family, and it is also why the Government have been interceding at the highest level in all three of the cases that the hon. Gentleman raises.

It is important that that sensitive and diplomatic work is carried on in circumstances that ensure that we can influence not just the Saudi Government, but other Governments, in a way that allows them to make progress in a manner consistent with ensuring that our case can be made effectively. That is why I believe that the actions of the Minister for the middle east—and indeed those of the Foreign Secretary and the diplomatic service—in ensuring that human rights considerations can be carried forward have been right and wise.

It is also important to bear in mind that there is security co-operation between Britain and Saudi Arabia, which has, as the Prime Minister and others have pointed out, saved British lives in the past. We would never compromise our commitment to human rights, but we must also recognise that it is in the interests of the most important human right of all—the right to live in safety and security—that we should continue with necessary security co-operation with the Saudi and other Governments.

The hon. Gentleman asks why no letter of reply was written to the Leader of the Opposition. I can only apologise for any delay in writing to him, and I hope that today’s statement goes some way to raising the concerns that he understandably raised in his party conference speech and in correspondence. More broadly, I want to assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that the whole focus of the Ministry of Justice will be on maintaining the rule of law, upholding human rights and making sure that our citizens are protected effectively with a justice system in which all can take pride and have confidence.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

The Lord Chancellor is to be congratulated on his decision. I and fellow members of the Justice Committee welcome it warmly. It reinforces Britain’s status on justice and human rights matters. It also proportionately and sensibly continues the necessary work that we need to do on security matters with Saudi Arabia. My right hon. Friend has got the balance right, which some Opposition Members did not do when they were in office.

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee for making that point. Governments always have to balance the vital importance of upholding human rights with necessary security considerations, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the confidence he places in the Government’s decision in this case.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)]

The power of the urgent question indeed. This is a victory, if we believe press reports, for the Secretary of State himself, but also for the Gulf Centre for Human Rights, which has been vociferous in challenging the decision.

This is not, of course, an easy issue. The contract was being negotiated against a backdrop of a Government who have beheaded more people than Daesh, who are about to lash a British pensioner 350 times, potentially crucify a teenager and have sentenced a blogger to a slow death sentence, so I can genuinely understand why a Government would seek to involve themselves in changing how they manage the justice system. However, questions need to be asked about the whole approach to and relationship with Saudi Arabia, and about why the Government have dropped abolishing the death penalty as a priority in their international work abroad. What assistance did this Government give to the Government of Saudi Arabia so that they could chair a committee on human rights within the United Nations? Why did the British Government sanction flags flying at half-mast when the King of Saudi Arabia died—something that the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson called

“a steaming pile of nonsense”?

I welcome today’s move, but this cannot be the end of our examination of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. One thing the Justice Secretary could do would be to place all papers relating to this deal in the public domain, so that Parliament can examine them retrospectively.

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his detailed questions. Some, of course, strayed into diplomatic matters, which are not the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice, but I can confirm that whenever any monarch of any country dies, the flag is flown at half-mast. It is a long-standing convention—one that has been honoured in the past and continues to be honoured.

The hon. Gentleman’s broader point about the administration of justice within Saudi Arabia was well made. We have profound concerns about the respect accorded to human rights within Saudi Arabia, but it is also the case—I must stress this—that the most effective way of ensuring that human rights progress can be made in Saudi Arabia, both for its citizens and for others, is to allow the Foreign Office to continue its diplomatic work, which balances the strong relationships built up over time with an absolute insistence that in all countries and at all times, we oppose the death penalty. We will never resile from that.

[Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)]

Deny it though he might, many are left with the impression that this decision has been guided more by my right hon. Friend’s rather caustic personal view of Saudi Arabia than by any legitimate concerns of his Department’s policy on justice. Is it not the case that when we look at a country’s judicial system of which we do not in many respects approve, engagement is far better than disengagement, and that disengagement may be a comfortable moral position, but can lead to no progress whatsoever?

[Michael Gove]

I take my right hon. Friend’s comments very seriously. He is absolutely right to say that constructive engagement with Governments like Saudi Arabia’s is always the wisest course. However, it is also the case that there is always a balance to be struck in the nature of the engagement that we make. The decision was made across Government that the Just Solutions International branch of the National Offender Management Service should be wound up, and this decision is consequent on that cross-Government decision.

As I have said before at the Dispatch Box, it is vital that we support the Foreign Office, its skilled diplomats and its excellent Ministers in the work that they continue to do to influence not just the Saudi Government, but other Governments who are considering how they can improve their own domestic human rights record and, indeed, promote the rule of law.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Is it not almost farcical that the Saudi ambassador to the United Nations is actually chairing a panel that selects officials to decide on human rights violations? I am not aware that the United Kingdom has protested about that; it was probably a party to the appointment.

Is it not also the case that the Saudi Government do not take too seriously the various disapprovals expressed occasionally by Ministers, because they know that Britain will continue to sell arms on a substantial scale to a country where executions occur, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter)? Britain’s dealings with that state do not present a very pretty picture.

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman has made two points. The first relates to the involvement of Saudi Arabia in the United Nations. Again, I should stress that this is a matter for another Department. However, I think that we should encourage the involvement of countries in international institutions when we can bring pressure and influence to bear on them to meet higher standards when it comes to the rule of law and human rights. That is an ongoing process; it is a dialogue.

In the same spirit, I should also stress that there are, of course, individual British companies that do business in Saudi Arabia, and there are shared security interests as well. Any responsible Government will always want to balance those interests with standing up for and making the case for progress in the realm of human rights, and that has been the consistent policy of this Government.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on being an example of a Secretary of State who has made a decision because, quite simply, it was the right thing to do. Can he reassure the House that in future, when that difficult balance is being struck between our legitimate security and foreign policy considerations and the needs of human rights, those human rights needs may be placed slightly higher in the mix than they have been in the past under Governments of all colours?

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend has made a characteristically wise point, and I absolutely agree with him. It is important that we put the interests of advancing human rights at the heart of everything that the Government do, and that is one of the reasons why I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), is the Minister responsible for civil liberties, has revised the way in which the Ministry of Justice engages internationally in order to ensure that human rights enjoy greater prominence.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The Secretary of State has made exactly the right decision today. He has done the right thing, and I think it important for him, in particular, to be given credit for having done it. In order better to inform the debate about the very difficult balancing act that he has had to perform—along with his ministerial colleagues—will he now consider publishing the documents behind this deal? In particular, will he publish the memorandum of understanding that was signed by his Ministry and the Home Office with Saudi authorities in March this year?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his generous words, but I must stress that this is a cross-Government decision. It was reached after discussion across Government, and it is a shared, collective decision of the whole Government. It is, of course, in that spirit that I entirely understand why the right hon. Gentleman would like further and better particulars. However, I must also respect the nature of diplomatic engagement. It is necessarily the case, and understandable, that when we are seeking to influence countries to act in a way which we believe to be in their interests but which may ultimately involve a change of policy at any given point, we wish to maintain confidence in the nature of that relationship, and that means that such conversations must sometimes remain confidential.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend. I think that he speaks for the House when he articulates the reasons for this decision. As he will know, the United Kingdom was recently voted the No. 1 nation in the world for “soft power”, partly owing to an acceptance across the world that we are not willing to be complicit in, or tacitly support, egregious abuses of human rights, including those perpetrated by the Wahhabi-dominated Saudi regime. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that we will keep under review all actions to signal our disapproval of its conduct, including the most robust actions in the future?

[Michael Gove]

Let me absolutely emphasise that the Minister for the middle east and the Foreign Secretary make representations regularly not just to the Saudi Government, but to other Governments whose behaviour gives us cause for concern in respect of human rights matters. However, as my hon. Friend acknowledged in his question, there is always a balance to be struck by the Government between—quite rightly—standing up for human rights, and recognising our broader security and other relationships which help to keep British citizens safe.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

When answering questions put by the Foreign Affairs Committee the other week, the permanent secretary to the Foreign Office said that human rights were fairly low down in the list of priorities, or certainly not as far up as the Secretary of State suggests. The UK’s College of Policing provides training courses for Saudi police. What training is being given, and at what price?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Lady’s record of commitment in advancing human rights globally is second to none in this place. I should stress that I am not a Foreign Office Minister, but it is clear to me from all my dealings with the Foreign Office that it places advancing the cause of human rights and protecting fundamental freedoms at the heart of British diplomacy. We are guided by our values first. However, when we are co-operating with countries across the world, it is important for us to recognise—even as we argue first and foremost for respect for human rights—that there are shared security concerns. I think that the particular work that is undertaken in relation to policing, although another Government Department is responsible for it, falls fairly and squarely into that category.

[Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)]

I am sure that everyone in the Chamber would agree that the Saudi penal system needs reform. Having made his decision, will the Secretary of State outline what he thinks the Government’s future strategy should be in relation to improving that penal system, and, indeed, other similar systems around the world?

[Michael Gove]

I think it important that we continue to work diplomatically to encourage countries not only to improve their penal systems, but to improve their respect for the rule of law. One of the activities in which the Foreign Office is most energetic is ensuring that the strong relationships that have been nurtured over years by our diplomats and Ministers are used to reinforce and encourage progress and reform in all the countries with which we have relationships.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision, but will he also have discussions with the Foreign Secretary? I listened to Karl Andree’s son on the “Today” programme this morning, and it was clear from what he said that the Foreign Office’s interpretation of “regular visits” was not what he thought his father was receiving. Can we take greater care that our prisoners abroad are looked after properly?

[Michael Gove]

I understand from my hon. Friend the Minister for the middle east, who has taken a very close personal interest in this case, that he has been and will continue to be in touch with the family, and I know that every resource that we have to help Mr Andree is being deployed.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

We rightly condemn barbaric regimes with which we have no relationship whatsoever, but Saudi Arabia is clearly a key ally in the middle east. As a friend, we have more influence. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the House sends the message that the barbaric treatment of British people in Saudi prisons is unacceptable, and that he uses his influence to improve the prison system in Saudi Arabia?

[Michael Gove]

Our diplomats, operating in our embassy in Saudi Arabia, regularly visit any British citizens who may find themselves caught up in conflict or in the Saudi Arabia criminal justice system, and, as well as providing that consular support, we obviously exercise whatever diplomatic influence we can. However, my hon. Friend is right to stress that the broader security co-operation between Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom is friendly, and that it is in the interests of our citizens for it to be maintained so that we can safeguard their security.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has taken a sensible decision today. He also rightly pointed out that Britain’s role internationally is to encourage other countries to respect the rule of law and that our diplomats spend a lot of time campaigning against the death penalty. However, the rule of law in Saudi Arabia includes amputations and floggings. What will Britain do to try to encourage those countries whose law permits cruel and unusual punishment as part of their justice system to stop it, because that is not justice?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Lady makes a powerful point. It is important to recognise that Saudi Arabia is a deeply conservative country and is going through a period of transition. We want to encourage that transition and modernisation within that country while at the same time respecting the nature of any diplomatic conversation and any diplomatic relationship. That is why it is right that the Foreign Office—its diplomats and Ministers—continue the good work they are doing in encouraging the Saudi regime to adopt a more modern approach.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The Secretary of State has explained very clearly this difficult balancing act. I want to know how it works in practice, because we have to work with countries whose human rights records we not approve of, but how do we actually approach this? Do we talk one to one? How is this actually done?

[Michael Gove]

We engage with the Saudi Government on every level. Of course it is the case that we have regular daily diplomatic contact. Consular support is given to British citizens in Saudi Arabia, too. It is also the case that there is contact at ministerial level and head of Government level. As my hon. Friend recognised, there is a balance to be struck, and it must be guided first of all by Britain’s national interest, which resides in keeping our citizens safe, but also in standing up for the values our citizens believe in and would like us to promote.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

The Justice Secretary says the Government were interceding in the cases raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter). In the case of Raif Badawi, could the Secretary of State find out why the prosecutors are now asking for a retrial with a possible death sentence?

[Michael Gove]

That is a very important point, and the Foreign Office are in discussions with the Saudi Government about precisely that case.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

The Telegraph has reported in the last few minutes that the Foreign Office has been assured that the flogging will not be carried out. Can the Secretary of State clarify matters in that regard?

[Michael Gove]

It was always the case that our Foreign Office was seeking to ensure that no flogging would be carried out, and it is also important to stress that, understandably, press and media reporting of these events can sometimes be affected by strong emotional feelings, but it is also the case that even as these strong emotional feelings and powerful voices are raised, quietly and behind the scenes our diplomats and Foreign Ministers are working hard to safeguard the interests of British citizens, and we should be glad that the skills of our diplomats are being deployed in order to safeguard our citizens’ interests.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

I have made several representations to both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Office—I am glad to see the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), in the Chamber—over the case of Ali Mohammed al-Nimr. I have yet to receive a reply. This young man is still due to be brutally executed by beheading and crucifixion. Would the Secretary of State perhaps like to comment on this case now within the context of the Saudi prison contract, and also in light of numerous brutal and repeated human rights abuses within Saudi, such as that of Mohammed al-Nimr, not to mention the fact that one person is executed every two days, often by gruesome and medieval methods? There is also the growing number of civilian deaths in Yemen by air strikes conducted by the Saudi Arabia-led coalition. I am wondering—and others will be as well—how the Government can continue to have such a close, intertwined relationship with the Saudis. [Interruption.] What can the Secretary of State tell us today to reassure people that the Government will not continue to support and facilitate human rights abuses? I have heard in the Chamber as well that safety and security—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have been very fair—some would say indulgent—to the hon. Lady. She must accept that her oration—it was more of an oration than a question—is, for now, over, but we thank her for what she said.

[Michael Gove]

We both know, Mr Speaker, that the hon. Lady feels very strongly about this issue and has raised it on a number of occasions. I am glad to say that my hon. Friend the Minister for the middle east would be delighted to talk to her outside the Chamber to update her. There have been specific domestic reasons why, in Saudi Arabia, we have not had all the conversations we might have wanted to, but we continue at every point to ensure we make the case that we believe the death penalty is wrong.

[Mr Speaker]

If I and the House heard the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove) correctly, and if he is correct in his understanding, the barbaric flogging which has occasioned much interest today will not now take place, and I do not think the Secretary of State demurred from that observation.

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove) is at an advantage in that he has information that I do not have, but that is my understanding and that was what the Government were working towards.

[Mr Speaker]

I am most grateful to the Secretary of State for what he has said and to colleagues for participating in this exchange.

Bills presented

Housing and Planning

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mr Secretary Greg Clark, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Theresa May, Secretary Michael Gove, Secretary Sajid Javid, Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, Secretary Elizabeth Truss, Mr Marcus Jones and Brandon Lewis, presented a Bill to make provision about housing, estate agents, rent charges, planning and compulsory purchase.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow; and to be printed (Bill 75) with explanatory notes (Bill 75—EN).

Negligence and Damages

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mr Andy McDonald presented a Bill to make provision about liability for negligence in relation to psychiatric illness; to amend the law relating to damages in respect of personal injuries and death; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 4 December; and to be printed (Bill 76).

Youth Justice

Lord Gove Excerpts

Friday 11th September 2015 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

In recent years we have seen a significant and welcome reduction in the number of young people entering the youth justice system. However, little progress has been made in reducing reoffending, with 67% of young people leaving custody reoffending within a year.

The time is right to examine our approach to tackling youth offending. We need to consider whether the current system, which was created in 2000, remains able to meet the challenges we face in 2015.

It is vital that we seize the opportunity to rehabilitate young people who have offended, to steer them away from a life of crime, and to set them on a more positive course which will benefit both them and society.

For this reason Charlie Taylor will lead a departmental review of the youth justice system. Charlie is the former Chief Executive of the National College of Teaching and Leadership, the former head teacher of an outstanding school for children with complex behavioural, emotional and social difficulties, and an expert in managing young people’s behaviour. His experience and expertise in working with children with severe behavioural difficulties give him a real understanding of the wider challenges in preventing youth offending, and I am confident he will bring a fresh perspective and energy to the task.

As part of the review Charlie will look at the evidence and current practice in preventing youth crime and rehabilitating young offenders; he will explore how the youth justice system can most effectively interact with wider services for children and young people; and he will consider whether the current arrangements are fit for purpose.

The review will report in the summer of next year.

The terms of reference for the review will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS190]

Prison Education

Lord Gove Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

We have more than 80,000 adults in our custody. One of the most important things we can do once they are inside the prison walls is to make sure that they get the literacy and numeracy skills they need to make them employable and positive contributors to society once released. For those serving longer sentences, education and training is a key part of their rehabilitation.

We must have the right incentives for prisoners to learn and for prison staff to make sure that education is properly prioritised. I want to see prisoners motivated to engage in their own learning and Governors with the right tools to be more demanding and creative about the education provided in the prisons they run.

I have seen some excellent examples of innovation and visionary organisations providing prisoners with education opportunities and qualifications they actually need to help secure a job on release. But I want to see more.

That is why I have asked Dame Sally Coates to lead a review of the provision of education in prisons.

Dame Sally has a wealth of experience in working with pupils in inner-city schools and in taking decisive action to improve schools’ performance. She took charge of Burlington Danes Academy when it became an Ark school, leading it from special measures to outstanding in all areas. In her current role as Director of Academies South for United Learning she oversees the provision of education in 16 academies and seven independent schools. She recently carried out a review of teaching standards for the Department for Education and I know she will inject fresh thinking into the neglected area of prison education so that many more offenders’ lives can be turned around.

Dame Sally will be supported by a panel of people who have delivered outstanding secondary education, experts in further and higher education, employers, representatives from Ofsted, senior officials from the Ministry of Justice, the National Offender Management Service and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as well as experienced frontline prison staff. Together they will work with Dame Sally to explore how we can significantly improve education for all prisoners.

They will also investigate how the quality and methods of prison teaching can be improved including in classrooms and workshops, how prisoners can be encouraged to positively engage with learning and the potential for employers to advise on the curriculum to ensure that prisons offer the right courses and qualifications to enable prisoners to secure jobs on release.

I want this review to happen at pace so I have asked Dame Sally to make recommendations by spring next year.

A copy of the terms of reference for the review will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS178]

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Gove Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

17. What recent steps he has taken to improve the provision of education in prisons; and if he will make a statement.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

Improving the education of prisoners is key to rehabilitation, but Ofsted inspections have revealed that one in five prisons has an inadequate standard of education provision, and that another two fifths require improvement. That is why, as we announced in this morning’s written ministerial statement, I have asked Dame Sally Coates to chair a review of the quality of education in prisons. The review will report in March 2016.

[Alex Chalk]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that improving the literacy and numeracy of offenders is vital to increasing their employability and, with that, their opportunity to make a contribution to society?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The levels of literacy and numeracy of many offenders in the system are far too low. If we can transform that and provide them with the skills to hold down a meaningful job, they can be genuine assets to our society rather than liabilities.

[James Berry]

What role does my right hon. Friend think that new and outside providers could play in improving educational opportunities and outcomes in our prisons?

[Michael Gove]

There are some formidable organisations that want to improve the quality of education in our prisons. In my previous role as Education Secretary, I saw how a wider diversity of education suppliers can help to raise standards for all, and particularly for the most disadvantaged. I would like to see the same reforming vigour applied to the education of offenders.

[Pauline Latham]

I welcome the written ministerial statement that the Secretary of State mentioned earlier. He will be aware that some prisons, in addition to educating their inmates, provide educational opportunities whereby outside people come into the prison to help and give ex-offenders jobs when they leave. That is a way of preventing prisoners from reoffending, but the practice is declining. Will my right hon. Friend look into this, please?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. One aspect of Dame Sally’s critically important review will cover engagement with employers. I am delighted that the chief executive of Timpson, one of the most inspirational organisations employing ex-offenders, is part of the team that will help Dame Sally to ensure that education, employability and rehabilitation are all operating together.

[Karl MᶜCartney]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his answers so far. Does he agree that the current provision of education in prisons, which seems to centre on the awarding of certificates, is insufficient and that we need to move towards a system in which the curriculum is written jointly with employers and focused on employment? Will he therefore consider connecting education in Her Majesty’s prisons to Lord Baker’s career colleges initiative?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Offenders often feel that they have to complete courses in order to secure release, and that those courses are simply boxes to be ticked and do not contribute to their employability. He is right to suggest that the visionary work carried out by Lord Baker to improve the quality of vocational education more broadly can help to inform what we give to offenders to give them a second chance.

[Margaret Greenwood]

In a Prisoners Education Trust survey, 83% of prisoners said that access to the virtual campus was poor. That is hardly surprising, given that prison staffing levels have fallen almost 30% since 2010. If the Secretary of State really wants to improve education provision in prisons, what is he going to do address that?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about access to the virtual campus facilities. One of the reasons for the reduction in prison staff is that a number of prisons have been closed as part of the modernisation programme that took place under my predecessor. I had the opportunity yesterday to talk to the governor of a young offenders institution who is taking steps to ensure that all the young offenders for whom he is responsible have access to virtual learning platforms. I would like to see how we can more effectively integrate cutting-edge technology with the provision of education for offenders.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

21. The Secretary of State is right to stress the importance of education in helping to stop reoffending, but he seems to be completely unaware that classes are frequently cancelled and that wings are closed and locked down because of the shortage of prison officers. Will he now accept that the Government were wrong to cut the number of prison officers in the way that they have?

[Michael Gove]

A significant number of new and talented entrants to the Prison Service have been recruited. I am confident that if we give governors, in particular, a greater degree of operational flexibility, we will be able to tackle some of the problems that the hon. Lady rightly identifies.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that all Governments, all Ministers and all parties have failed to do very much of significance in prison education? When I chaired the Select Committee on Education and Skills, we looked at this issue. I hope the new inquiry, which I welcome, will look at that because our recommendations are still relevant today. Is he aware that children with special educational needs, and particularly those with autism, often end up in prison? Will he examine the work of the Shannon Trust, which tackles the issue of literacy in prisons and gets prisoners teaching prisoners?

[Michael Gove]

The Shannon Trust work is excellent and I am happy to commend it to the House. The work it does—its Toe by Toe programme—ensuring that prisoners can mentor others and help them to read is exemplary. The hon. Gentleman’s broader point is right; if we look back at the past, we see that we have not placed sufficient emphasis on ensuring that when prisoners are in custody we give them the tools to transform their lives for the better. That is absolutely vital and I know that he agrees with me on treating offenders as potential assets—as people who can contribute—rather than concentrating exclusively on the mistakes they have made in the past.

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

I very much welcome Sally Coates’s review and look forward to its findings. The Secretary of State will know that Ofsted says that outstanding learning cannot possibly be provided in prisons that are dangerous, violent and not safe. He needs to think about the fact that serious attacks on prison officers have risen by a third in the past year, with many prison officers working day in, day out in fear. I am talking about inexperienced staff; he has recruited many, but they are unencumbered by experience. Drugs and understaffing are endemic in the system. He mind find those issues trickier to deal with, but what is he doing urgently to address them? Without addressing them, he will not achieve his aim of improving education.

[Michael Gove]

Those are very fair points from the hon. Lady. She is absolutely right about the increase in the number of incidents of violence in our jails. One factor driving that is the presence of new psychoactive substances—what have sometimes been called “legal highs” but are more properly, as the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) has pointed out, called lethal highs. One thing that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice has done is introduce legislation in the Psychoactive Substances Bill, which I know has cross-party support and will help to deal with that. She is also right in saying that we need to ensure that the appropriate training and support is in place for prison officers. They put their security on the line every day to keep the rest of us safe, and everything we can do—for example, extending the roll-out of body-worn cameras—to ensure that their security is at the heart of our prison estate is worthwhile.

[Jenny Chapman]

That is probably the best answer I have had from a Secretary of State on the issue of prison officer safety, on what must be the 20th time of raising it, and we will hold him to the moves he has promised to make. But what happens inside prisons is only half the story. Will he ensure that the review examines continuity of learning on release? I ask that because I am concerned that, following the chaotic sell-off of probation, offenders are not being adequately supervised, risk-assessed or monitored. He knows that Sodexo has already laid off 600 staff, many of whom had good experience in providing offenders with suitable skills and learning placements.

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that the transforming rehabilitation programme needs to be scrutinised very closely. I have had the benefit of talking to the trade unions that represent not just Sodexo employees but employees from across probation, and they have raised a number of genuine concerns, which I hope we can meet. More broadly, the opportunity to appoint a new chief inspector of probation, and indeed a new chief inspector of prisons, arises—the closing date for applications is this Friday. The current incumbents of both posts have done an excellent job, but it is really important that we have high-quality people who will hold to account the organisations responsible for the fate of offenders and ex-offenders.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

I welcome the appointment of Dame Sally and her review, and the emphasis that the Secretary of State placed upon rehabilitation in prison when he appeared before the Select Committee on Justice. Will he ensure not only that Dame Sally’s work is linked in with the work done by Lord Harris of Haringey in his excellent report on the philosophy, in effect, of rehabilitation in prisons, but that we look at the expertise of not only the Prison Service, but those outside it in dealing with the raft of multiple issues that these offenders suffer?

[Michael Gove]

I absolutely agree. Lord Harris’s report was a sobering reminder of the problems we face in our prison estate in managing some very vulnerable people who engage in self-harm and, in some cases, suicide. The recommendations that he made are receiving proper consideration in our Department. More broadly, the point that the Chair of the Select Committee makes about engaging outside organisations is at the heart of the transforming rehabilitation programme. The extension of new powers to community rehabilitation companies, which my predecessor introduced, will increasingly bear fruit in the months to come.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Seventy-one per cent of women entering prison do not have any qualifications, so what assessment has the Secretary of State made of the tailored curriculum plan that was introduced in October 2014?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. One of my principal concerns is that far too often the courses that have been offered and the qualifications that have been available to women in prison have not reflected the genuine needs—the circumstances that led them into offending in the first place or the needs that they have when they leave custody. One thing that Dame Sally will be looking at is exactly what needs to change, and there are no options off the table.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

In the days of the coalition I discovered as prisons Minister that the budget for prison education was held in a Department led by our coalition ally. The result was that it became very difficult to achieve the objective of getting the commissioning of education in prisons into the hands of prison governors. Does the Secretary of State now have sufficient control to achieve that objective?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend was an excellent prisons Minister, and he is absolutely right that we need to give the governors greater control. The response that I have received both from the Secretary of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Minister for Skills, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), has been hugely encouraging. Obviously, we have Offenders’ Learning and Skills Service contracts—the contracts that govern spending in prisons at the moment—which need to be honoured, but I hope that we might be able to move at pace to devolving responsibility to individual governors.

[Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)]

2. When he plans to open a consultation on proposals for a British Bill of Rights.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

T2. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank the leadership of the criminal solicitors profession and the criminal Bar in England and Wales. Over the course of the summer, they felt it necessary to take action to show that they had legitimate concerns about the operation of reforms to legal aid. Thanks to the constructive dialogue that we have had with them and with Ministry of Justice civil servants, we are now in talks to ensure that access to justice can be enhanced and, at the same time, that the quality of advocacy improves.

[Kirsten Oswald]

According to newspaper reports, people recently subjected to the £150 basic criminal courts charge, which was introduced by the Secretary of State’s predecessor, on top of other penalties included a man who stole three bottles of baby milk and a homeless man who stole a bottle of Red Bull. Will the Secretary of State agree to an urgent review of the effect of that ludicrous charge on the recovery of compensation for victims, the pressure it puts on people to plead guilty, and its straightforward iniquity?

[Michael Gove]

I have been made aware of widespread concern about the operation of the criminal courts charge, but it is important to stress that the charge is levied or taken from the offender only after other fines have been paid. It is important that the legislation is understood as having made it clear that the charge should be linked to ability to pay—the payment of that charge in due course should be linked to the offender’s means. We are going to review the criminal courts charge, but it is important not to rush to judgment, because we have to ensure that a change that was made and approved by the House in order to ensure that our justice system is fair, and that those who offended pay their way, is given time to bed in, so that we can form an appropriate judgment in due course.

[Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

T3. Skegness court is one of the most underused in the country and one of the least able to cope with vulnerable prisoners. I am not sentimental about the building, but will the Minister assure me that we can still dispense justice locally in Skegness, perhaps in another facility?

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

T4. The National Audit Office has estimated that between 160,000 and 220,000 careworkers are illegally paid below the national minimum wage, but if they seek redress, those workers, without money, are expected to pay hundreds of pounds in employment tribunal fees. Does the Secretary of State accept that his Department’s tribunal fee policy makes a mockery of the Prime Minister talking tough on poverty pay?

[Michael Gove]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s concerns very seriously. The Prime Minister last month made it clear that we will put in place new enforcement mechanisms to ensure that all employers live up to their responsibility to pay an appropriate wage for the job. That enforcement mechanism and that investigatory mechanism will ensure that those people, whom the hon. Gentleman and I both care about, are paid the right rate for the job.

[Sir Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

T5. Will the Minister with responsibility for prisons tell the House when the inquiry that is currently being held into allegations of a prisoner from Chelmsford prison engaging in sexual activity in an NHS hospital will be concluded? If the allegations, which were published in The Sun newspaper, are proved to be true, what action will be taken against the prison officers who were meant to be keeping an eye on that prisoner?

--- Later in debate ---

[Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State will no doubt be aware that in their programme for government 2015-16 the Scottish Government said that they would abolish employment tribunal fees using powers to be devolved under the Scotland Bill. Will he now recognise that the introduction of those fees has prevented access to justice and follow the Scottish Government’s lead by abolishing those fees across the UK so that all workers in the UK can afford to have their cases heard?

[Michael Gove]

I look forward to seeing what happens in Scotland as a result of devolution. One of the great things about devolution is that different parts of the UK have the opportunity to do different things and we can all learn from one another. For that reason, I was absolutely delighted when the First Minister of Scotland just last week adopted our policy on primary and secondary school testing after years when the gap between rich and poor in Scotland had grown wider and the gap between rich and poor elsewhere had narrowed. At last the SNP are learning from what this Government have achieved.

[Mr Speaker]

We are extremely grateful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

The National Audit Office, the Public Accounts Committee and the Select Committee on Justice have been critical of the Government’s lack of understanding of the knock-on costs of their reforms to legal aid. Is it not now time that the Government reviewed them to ensure that cost shunting does not happen and that effective justice is available to those who need it?

[Michael Gove]

Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Lady on her election as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. I know she will do that job brilliantly. She is absolutely right: changes to legal aid touch on the very heart of the principles of equal access to justice that we all hold dear. That is why I have been in intense talks with representatives from both the Bar and the solicitors’ profession in order to ensure that we can maintain access to justice and enhance the quality of advocacy in our courts.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—