Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.
Public Procurement (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, procurement by the Government and public sector bodies represents a significant sector of the UK economy. It is essential to the day-to-day running of government and is appropriately regulated. The Government are committed to ensuring the continued functioning of this important marketplace when we leave the EU. If a transitional deal is agreed with the EU then the existing procurement regulations will remain in place during the transition period. However, if no deal is reached with the EU then certain aspects of the existing regulatory scheme for public procurement will be deficient and will simply not work. The draft regulations before the Committee seek to address those deficiencies that would arise in a no-deal scenario.
The amendments made to the legislation reflect the UK’s new status outside the EU. It provides a balance between the need to maintain continuity based on established principles and the existing framework with the need to correct deficiencies to the extent permitted by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. This will ensure the legislation is operable, effective and makes sense. This instrument primarily makes amendments to three sets of regulations—the Public Contracts Regulations, Utilities Contracts Regulations and Concession Contracts Regulations—that regulate public procurement in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. These sets of regulations implement EU directives on awarding contracts and concessions in the public and utilities sectors, outside the fields of defence and security.
This instrument amends or revokes various EU regulations and decisions relating to public procurement that will become retained direct EU legislation on exit day. It also makes small amendments to various pieces of domestic legislation, including some primary legislation, that are not primarily about public procurement but which contain public procurement references that will become deficient on exit day. These changes address the UK’s new position outside the EU while continuing to facilitate a functioning UK internal market.
As we leave the EU, the UK is working to join the WTO government procurement agreement in its own right. We are currently a GPA member through being an EU member state. I am pleased to say that the other GPA parties have agreed in principle to our market access offer and accession. We have taken precautions against the UK’s accession not being fully completed by exit day. One of the amendments to the public procurement regulations ensures continued guaranteed access, rights and remedies on current terms for suppliers from existing GPA countries for a time-limited period from exit day. Without this amendment, suppliers from GPA parties would no longer have the guaranteed access, rights and remedies that they currently enjoy in our public procurement contracts. This will mitigate the risks of a short gap in GPA membership by facilitating continued market access.
Through the amended regulations, control over public procurement is returned to the United Kingdom. All notices for public procurement opportunities will in future be published on a new UK e-notification system. Business continuity is meanwhile assured through the transitional provisions that will generally apply the amended regulations, even in relation to procurements that are already under way on exit day.
In a no-deal scenario, this instrument reflects the UK’s status as a non-member state, at the same time as ensuring a functioning internal market exists that complies with the requirements of the GPA. It provides the continuity and legal certainty required by public procurers and suppliers. I commend the regulations to the Committee and beg to move.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
I thank the Minister for introducing the regulations, and those who drafted them for their hard work. Shall we get the good points out of the way first? I thought there were three. The first is that any regulation-making powers under the 1958 list will be by affirmative procedure—a tick for that one. The second was the ban on convictions being carried over as grounds for exclusion—tick. Thirdly, it looks as though Gibraltar has been included, which I assume is with the agreement of the Government of Gibraltar—tick. However, I have a number of questions.
One of my major questions is about the bold statement that no impact assessment has been made, despite the regulations introducing a requirement for businesses to use a new e-notification system that might include considerable changes to their own data systems, requiring software changes and internal training. These things never just happen, and preparing for them could well be expensive for the companies involved. That is a concern, given that the Explanatory Memorandum also states that there has been “no consultation”. It is hard to see how on earth it could have been decided that there would be virtually no cost to the companies affected, particularly small and medium-sized companies. It is exactly those companies, which do not have their own sophisticated IT departments, that could therefore face quite a challenge. It would be helpful to have some explanation of why no consultation and testing took place with them, and how it was therefore possible to take the view that the change would have no impact.
My second question relates to the exit date. I think that I am right that no definition is given in the regulations, presumably because they are made under the withdrawal Act of 2018, which itself defines exit day. I know that the Minister will not comment on this, but a number of us think it extremely unlikely that we will leave on 29 March and that there will very likely be a request for an extension to Article 50, and therefore a change of exit date. Should exit day be amended by statutory instrument under, I think, Section 20(4) of the Act, does that automatically amend the date on which these regulations would come into force? Would the eight months after which Regulations 6, 8 and 10 would come into force automatically follow the new exit date?
My third question is about e-notification, which I touched on earlier. I am worried about it because this is a no-deal preparatory statutory instrument, which sort of assumes that there will be no deal in seven weeks’ time. It would be helpful if the Minister could indicate when he considers that the e-notification system will be up, ready to run and fully tested; hopefully, it will be pre-tested with potential users. Some response on that would be helpful—as would some thoughts on what happens if it is not ready on exit date, particularly as another part of the regulations says that notices cannot be published on any other national portal until they have appeared on the e-notification system. Since we know that these things do not always appear quite on time, what happens if the system is not ready by 29 March? Can the Minister also tell us what sort of training and support will be given to those who need to access it? Perhaps he might know, or be given guidance on, how different this system is from the one currently used with EU procedure.
My fourth question turns to the GPA. The Minister said that the other parties have agreed in principle to us becoming a member of the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement. However, I am interested to know why, both in the regulations and in what he says, there is an indication that that might not have happened by exit date. Paragraph 7.20 of the EM suggests that it may not have happened. Can he explain why there might be a delay, given that we have applied, I assume, and he has heard that the other parties are happy? Basically, what is the problem?
My fifth question is about the CMA. The purpose of these regulations is to ensure that the “award of public contracts” is done in a market which is,
“open and competitive and that suppliers are treated equally and fairly”.
As I understand the regulations, the CMA will oversee and enforce this but that is something of a problem in that we do not yet know the nature of the state-aid regime post Brexit. We do not know the anticipated regime, nor exactly how it will oversee and enforce it. Obviously, state aid is very relevant to procurement, but the market is populated by international actors. They, and our people doing the procurement, will need to be clear about what the regime is. The relevant SI for the CMA bit of this was laid only on 21 January, and there is no indication of when the CMA will publish its policy statements. It says it will be before the end of March; should we come out on 29 March without a deal—which is what this instrument is about—there will be almost no time for anyone to know what the policy on which it will work to oversee the market is.
The Minister will be very pleased to know that I have only seven questions. My sixth question is about the financial threshold. The role of converting the GPA threshold into sterling will fall to the Cabinet Office Minister under these regulations. I was not clear about how this decision will be communicated. At the moment this is done through the normal EU channels but once that no longer happens, what is the transparency? This should be quite a simple decision and how it will happen is laid down, but it would be good to know how it will be communicated.
My last question is about something that I am sure everyone in the Room except me knows, so I ask it very much for my own benefit. It is about social obligations. A contracting authority can refuse to award a contract to the lowest bidder if the bidder,
“does not comply with certain … obligations in the field of social, environmental and labour law”.
I understand what environmental and labour law cover, but I am personally unsure whether “social law” would include consumer law, or whether it is more about social benefits and so on. For my benefit, could the Minister clarify whether consumer law would be covered? I am sorry that I have lots of questions, but that is partly why I asked my colleagues if they minded me going early. I think that gives other people in the Room a chance to find the answers before the Minister has to reply.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, having read this lengthy SI and being conscious of the other 600 or so coming our way, my sympathy for the officials working on Brexit is deeper than before. My despair at the Government refusing to rule out a no-deal Brexit is deepened when I think that some of all this is to guard against the contingency of no deal and would not be necessary if we ruled out that possibility. I know that a huge amount of extra work is going on across Whitehall to guard against a contingency that Parliament would not accept if we found ourselves drifting towards it. However, in the event of a withdrawal agreement, we will still have public procurement issues.
I want to ask primarily about the agreement on government procurement and the adjustment of moving to WTO terms, so to speak, in moving from the EU regulations to the GPA. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I heard the Minister say that others have “agreed in principle” to this and that we are “working to join” the GPA, which suggests that we will not have joined by the end of March. I hope that he can tell us when we might do so and what will happen if we leave in an orderly fashion in the next few months—I do not know how we will manage that but we will try to do it somehow—before we have joined the GPA, with a gap in between.
I note that paragraph 12.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that,
“in a no deal scenario where the UK is not participating in the GPA, it may be that economic operators would no longer have guaranteed access to the procurement markets of GPA parties (including the EU) or the remedies provided for by them”.
I understand that to mean that British companies will suffer in having no access to other countries’ markets. What would the situation be? Can the Minister explain a little about the difficulties we appear to have run into between October and November last year in applying to become an independent member of the GPA? Why was the United States so resistant to UK admission, as some of the documents I have looked at suggest? Are Her Majesty’s Government confident that, in rejoining the GPA as an independent country, we will find that procurement in the United States—by states as well as by the federal Government—will be open to the UK? I recall from my time in the US as a student that other countries constantly complained about how they could access federal procurement but states did not think that they were bound by international agreements of that sort.
Why did New Zealand express reservations about the UK becoming a full member of the GPA? Given that Liam Fox provides constant assurances that New Zealand is willing to offer open arms to the UK through the most generous possible trade deal after Brexit, it struck me as rather odd that its Government did so. New Zealand is a massive friend to the UK, ever grateful for having been colonised by British people. One would have thought that there would be no problems what ever.
Will Irish firms be in an intermediate position in any way in terms of access to government procurement? I am conscious that the Belfast agreement and our future relationship with Ireland are not exactly foreign matters. Can the Minister say anything about our confidence in standards of enforcement in the GPA? Moving from the EU framework to the World Trade Organization GPA framework represents moving to a looser framework. It is a bit like moving from Europol to Interpol. Standards of enforcement tend to be lower; for example, I know that China is about to join the GPA but I cannot imagine the Chinese opening their domestic state procurement market as fully as we have managed with France, Italy or Spain. Is a little more assurance on that point possible or are we simply accepting that we are moving from a tighter, more effective framework to a looser and less effective one?
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I will begin by asking the noble Earl some specific questions, and then make some wider remarks. First, what status would British public procurement contracts have in the Official Journal of the European Union? In a no-deal scenario, is it the intention that the United Kingdom would still advertise its contracts in the Official Journal? Indeed, would it be legally possible for it to do so? If it does not, either because it is not legally possible or because it is a policy of the Government not to do so in a no-deal scenario, will that not in practice mean that our procurement market in the United Kingdom is a great deal less competitive after than it was before because, if people do not know about contracts and there is not a level playing field for them to apply, fewer people will apply? That is an important point. I simply do not understand the position in a no-deal scenario.
Secondly, from what the Explanatory Memorandum says, I assume that it will still be entirely open to UK companies to bid into the EU procurement market, in the same way as it is open to countries outside the EU at the moment. It is the issue about the advertising of contracts in respect of the United Kingdom that seems significant.
My third question relates to the point just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, of the slightly conditional language used by the noble Earl in his opening remarks about whether we will or will not be a member of the GPA by 29 March. I took him to say that we might be, but he could not give a guarantee. Having looked at the statements made by the WTO and Julian Braithwaite, the United Kingdom’s representative there, my under- standing is that our application has been accepted in principle but that there are a number of issues still being worked through. Perhaps the noble Earl could update us. That seems a point of some importance for people in these markets to understand—whether we definitely will or may not be an independent signatory to the GPA by the end of March—not least because of the remarks made by the noble Earl himself in his introduction, where he said, I think, that having that independent membership would give us,
“continued guaranteed … rights and remedies”.
I assume the reverse is also true: if we are not an independent member at the end of March, then for the period when we are not we will not have guaranteed rights and remedies, and this could leave British companies seriously vulnerable in enforcing their rights.
My fourth question relates to paragraph 7.39 of the Explanatory Memorandum and what the regime will be in respect of state aid. A number of questions arise from the paragraph, so I will quote it:
“In respect of abnormally low tenders submitted by bidders who may have been in receipt of state subsidies, the intention”,
of the Government,
“is to treat non-UK economic operators on a level playing field. Further, although a new UK State aid regime is envisaged in which the function for enforcement is to be conferred on the Competition and Markets Authority, in the area of public procurement, it would be inappropriate for economic operators established in the UK to be required to demonstrate that aid provided by the UK Government was compatible with the UK’s State aid regime in contrast to economic operators not established in the UK”.
Is my understanding of this correct, namely that whereas we intend to apply state aid rules to European bidders for our contracts, we are not intending with these regulations to insist on those same state aid rules being applied in respect of UK bidders for European contracts? The obvious point which arises if that is the case is that it will not be accepted at face value by our European partners, who will of course presumably continue to insist on the application of their state aid rules, which are the same as now. They will not change those rules. I therefore do not understand the actual effect, because the implication in paragraph 7.39 is that the UK could start, for example, flouting existing state aid rules to support UK bidders for EU contracts. As I understand it, that would be legal under the regime envisaged. What is the point of allowing that if those same rules are going to be applied by the EU in the first place? Let us think about real-life situations. It is not in the interest of the United Kingdom that we be regarded as an unreliable bidder in respect of state aid for EU contracts. If a belief gains ground that because these rules do not apply we are content for UK companies which are in receipt of state aid to bid, that will in quite short order lead to significant tension between us and the European Commission. Would a better arrangement not be to say that if we are so keen on state aid rules being applied in respect of EU bidders for UK contracts, the right, reasonable and collegiate thing for us to do would be to insist that those same rules applied in UK domestic law to UK bidders for European contracts? Is the noble Earl with me on those points? They are technical but extremely important for bidders for these contracts.
More broadly, we are again in a slightly surreal Alice in Wonderland situation. We are told—it comes up again in the impact assessment and the statement on consultation—that these changes are technical. Indeed, they are technical in the sense that they replace an existing procurement regime which operates within the European Union market with one that operates within the UK, only with minimal changes. That is certainly correct, and for that reason there is no impact assessment and there has been no consultation. However, at another level they are anything but technical; this relates to a point that my noble friend Lady Hayter made. The act of leaving the EU with no deal means that we are at one stroke potentially rupturing our entire access to these markets and the entire access arrangements of EU bidders to our market. As the noble Earl does not appear even to guarantee that we will be a member of the GPA—subject to what he says in his response—we cannot even be sure that we are able properly to enforce existing contracts which United Kingdom operators have entered into, because the ability to enforce those contracts depends upon our membership of the GPA.
While the technical wording of the rules may not have changed in terms of how we intend to operate public procurement, the act of leaving the EU will fundamentally rupture the entire regime for public procurement, including potentially closing European markets to UK operators over time and closing UK markets to EU operators. This goes against the whole drift and success of EU policy over the past 20 years, which has been systematically to open public procurement markets. I see from the latest EU statement on the three directives in this area that they are estimated to be worth €1.9 trillion a year, paid by 250,000 public buyers across the EU. This is a very significant reason why we engaged in the construction of the single market, why we have played such an active role in setting up the rules and why we have been absolute hawks on issues of state aid and intervention by EU Governments—some of our fellow European Governments have not been as open to the concept of competition in public procurement markets as we have been.
As this statutory instrument goes through, it is important to note that the loss to the UK will be huge. It relates directly to paragraph 12.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which was quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. Those of us who are becoming familiar with these statutory instruments after dozens of them are now used to this formula. The technical changes made in this statutory instrument to make it compatible with UK law on exit are minimal. However, the actual act of leaving the EU in relation to the real-world operation of the law is massive. Paragraph 12.3 is another statement exactly in that tradition. It says:
“An Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument because the framework and principles underlying the Regulations have not been substantially amended”.
Three sentences later, however, it goes on to say:
“It will be open to UK economic operators to continue to respond to contract notices published on OJEU by member States but in a no deal scenario where the UK is not participating in the GPA, it may be that economic operators would no longer have guaranteed access to the procurement markets of GPA parties (including the EU) or the remedies provided for by them”.
Those euphemistic words amount to the undermining or closing of a substantial part of the markets in which UK companies currently operate. The fact that it is caused not directly by these regulations but by the decision to leave the EU in a no-deal scenario—which underpins these regulations—will not greatly satisfy or mollify those companies whose livelihoods are trashed as a result of a no-deal Brexit.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their questions. If noble Lords will bear with me I will do my best to answer them, although not necessarily in the order in which they were asked.
The first question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, was about the lack of an impact assessment. As I said in my opening remarks, this statutory instrument was designed to ensure continuation of the current system where possible. The impact of the amendments, including the replacement of the OJEU with the UK e-notification service, was deemed, after a de minimis impact analysis, to be below an annual cost of £5 million, which is the critical figure in this context. Consequently, in line with published guidance, a full impact assessment was not required or produced. We do not anticipate that the costs of complying with the amended regulations will be very great: in fact for all practical purposes they will be unchanged, because this amendment only fixes deficiencies and removes reciprocal rights—it does not change processes and procedures that would affect the cost of running or participating in a procurement under the regulations. That is why there was no consultation.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
If I understand the Minister correctly, paragraph 12.3 should therefore read: “Provided that there is a withdrawal agreement, the impact will be limited, but in the event of no agreement there will be a considerable and adverse impact”.
Earl Howe
No, my Lords. These regulations are designed to ensure that the experience of businesses using the public procurement system is virtually unchanged from today. Our aim has been to produce as smooth a transition as possible—even in the event of no deal. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has pointed out, there will be changes in the wider context of bidding in the European market; I will come to that in a minute.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked what would happen if exit day was deferred. If that were to happen, and the withdrawal Act amended, that would feed directly through into these regulations, so no specific amendment would be required for that. She also asked me about the GPA thresholds and how they will be published. To update the thresholds, the Minister for the Cabinet Office will need to exercise the new regulation-making powers conferred by this instrument. The new thresholds will, therefore, be reflected in the public procurement regulations themselves and be publicly available and notified by procurement policy notice.
The noble Baroness, and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, asked about the GPA. As I said in my opening remarks, the UK currently participates in the GPA via its EU membership. We need to accede to the GPA in our own right to maintain legally guaranteed access to public contract opportunities that the GPA provides. The offer that we have made to GPA parties maintains our existing commitments in the UK part of the EU schedule. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 aims to ensure as much continuity as possible. It is, therefore, the UK’s intention to join the GPA in its own right and, ultimately, to transpose the other international agreements between the EU and third countries. Accordingly, all suppliers should continue to be treated equally and fairly through open competition. Keeping our procurement market open to international competition clearly ensures better value for money for the taxpayer and facilitates UK suppliers being offered reciprocal rights to participate in procurements abroad.
Noble Lords asked me what would happen if our GPA accession did not take place by exit day. We have made good progress in our accession process and, as I said, we have received agreement in principle to our GPA market access offer. Despite this progress, we have taken the necessary precautions in the event that the UK’s application to accede has not been fully completed by exit day. In this scenario, economic operators established in territories and states that are GPA parties would no longer have the guaranteed access and associated remedies that they currently have in relation to UK public procurements. One of the amendments in the public procurement regulations guarantees continued access, rights and remedies for suppliers from GPA countries for a time-limited period from EU exit. This approach has been taken to mitigate the risk of a short gap in GPA membership. This will facilitate UK suppliers being offered reciprocal rights to participate in procurements abroad.
The noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Adonis, asked about the attitude of other countries—New Zealand and China in particular—to what we were doing in relation to the GPA and standards. New Zealand has, in fact, accepted our final market access offer. It continues to be interested in other aspects of the UK’s WTO membership. China’s application has been in train for many years and I am advised that it is unlikely to be completed in the near future. There will be no change to the standards that we currently operate. A draft decision inviting the UK to join has been sent to all GPA parties. It is expected that the formal invitation will be issued at a committee meeting this month. Parties were interested in how the decision described the UK’s relations with the EU during the transition period.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, also asked about oversight carried out by the Competition and Markets Authority. This instrument does not provide for oversight by the CMA of the public procurement regime. Aggrieved suppliers will, however, continue to be afforded the remedies provided for in the regulations. In that way, contracting authorities and other entities will be held to account by the courts.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked various questions about the Official Journal of the European Union and the publication of contract opportunities. In a no-deal scenario, the UK is unlikely to be afforded access to the Official Journal for the purposes of advertising public contracts. That is simply a facet of no longer being a member of the EU, and that is why we have developed our own system to which UK bidders, EU bidders and bidders from the rest of the world will have access and in which they will be able to see UK public procurement opportunities. UK authorities may continue to advertise some types of procurement opportunity in the Official Journal—where the UK is participating in EU research and development projects, for example—though we anticipate that being a relatively rare event.
Lord Adonis
Is the noble Earl saying that to advertise in the Official Journal of the European Union you are required to be an EU member? Could he say—or follow up in writing afterwards—whether Norway and Switzerland, countries with very close economic associations, including membership of some of the economic institutions of the EU, do or do not advertise public procurement opportunities in the Official Journal? If it is possible to advertise in the Official Journal without being an EU member, it would be good to know whether the United Kingdom could continue to do so, since it would be a big advantage to be able to advertise our public procurement opportunities in that way.
Earl Howe
I take the noble Lord’s point entirely. I need to seek advice on the question that he asked me about Switzerland and Norway, as I do not have that information to hand, but clearly, to the extent that we are allowed to avail ourselves of the OJEU in any public procurement context, it will be an advantage. However, I am advised that the new UK e-notification system which is being developed will be accessible by the same portal that suppliers use at the moment. To that extent, the process which they go through will feel quite normal. I can advise the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that the new system is on track to be in place by 29 March 2019.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, am I correct in thinking that provided we have an agreement as we leave and therefore also a transition period, during that transition period many of the same arrangements will continue? If so, it is possible that the answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is that during the transition period we will continue to have access. The question of what happens after 2020, 2021 or whenever it is has to be negotiated; the future relationship negotiations have not yet begun.
Earl Howe
The noble Lord is absolutely correct. Clearly if the agreement proposed by the European Commission is agreed, or something like it is agreed, the implementation period will kick in, and therefore we will be as if a full member of the European Union for purposes of public procurement. There will then be the question of what long-term arrangements are negotiated by and through the Commission.
Earl Howe
I have just alighted on my note to that effect. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, essentially asked whether the implication of the Explanatory Memorandum is that the UK could start flouting the EU state aid regime. On leaving the EU, the UK will no longer be bound by the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, so economic operators will not be subject to the EU’s state aid regime any more than a third-country supplier receiving state subsidies would be. The UK has developed its own state aid regime, but it is important to remember that this instrument does not disapply the state aid rules. Rather, contracting authorities will simply no longer be required to look behind an abnormally low tender to investigate whether a bidder was in receipt of unlawful state subsidies. That is because the UK will no longer be a participant in or bound by the EU’s single market and competition rules.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I asked a question about whether the description of social law includes consumer law. I am happy for the Minister to write to me if he needs to check that.
There was one question I omitted to ask. It is not particularly relevant or specific to these regulations, but the Minister may know the answer anyway. It is: assuming this goes through, is approved by the House, therefore becomes law and then we get a deal, what happens? Do all these statutory instruments get repealed? What would be the status of all these no-deal statutory instruments should we get a deal?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
In that case, the impact assessment for no deal should have been part of the statutory instrument. I read it as being partly about no deal and partly about the withdrawal agreement, because if we leave with a deal before we have completed joining the GPA the consequences could be quite substantially adverse.
Earl Howe
The two situations would indeed be very different. The Government hope that Parliament will agree a deal, which will make for a much smoother transition in the implementation period for businesses, private citizens and everybody else than if there is no deal. However, as has been said many times in the Chamber, it behoves a prudent Government to prepare for these contingencies. Unlike the statutory instrument we will debate next, this one is purely designed to address the contingency of no deal.
Defence and Security Public Contracts (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, a responsible Government plan for all eventualities. It is essential that, as part of our preparations to leave the EU, we make sure that our legislation governing defence and security procurement functions properly beyond exit day in a no-deal scenario. It is the first duty of the Government to keep their citizens safe and the country secure. As part of that, the Government need to be able to procure the critical equipment and capabilities they need smoothly and with confidence. In the event of no deal, these amending regulations will provide procurers and suppliers with legal continuity and certainty, giving them the stability they need to conduct business after 29 March.
Clearly, the amendments to the legislation reflect the UK’s new status outside the EU in a no-deal scenario. However, the framework and principles underlying the defence and security procurement regime remain otherwise unchanged. This is in accordance with the powers given to amend retained EU law in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That Act does not allow major policy changes or the introduction of new legal frameworks beyond those that fix deficiencies to ensure the law continues to function properly or remove any reciprocal obligations that are no longer appropriate from exit day.
Brexit will offer us real opportunities, including reform of our defence and security procurement regulations. In the near term however, these amending regulations ensure that the UK’s defence and security procurements continue to function smoothly in a no-deal scenario, but with that all-important autonomy from the European Union. To protect the UK’s essential security interests, the amending regulations will maintain the effect of Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union by writing its substance into the existing regulations. The regulations already make it clear that they can be trumped by Article 346. Article 346 enables us to disapply the defence and security procurement rules when necessary to protect essential national security interests.
Through the amendments, control over our procurement is returned to the United Kingdom. For example, the Secretary of State for Defence will take the power previously held by the European Commission to modernise, although not broaden, the 1958 list of warlike stores that falls under Article 346 (1)(b). All notices for defence and security procurement opportunities will in future be published on a new UK e-notification system. Business continuity, meanwhile, is assured through the transitional provisions; there will be no defence procurement cliff edge.
Competition remains the cornerstone of defence procurement policy to ensure we equip our Armed Forces with the right capabilities at the right price. Currently, we allow bids from suppliers outside the EU, although the existing regulations provide only the legal right of market access required by EU law for suppliers based in the EU. Any restrictions on bidding, for example, on national security grounds, are made clear from the outset of any procurement.
The amending regulations provide a legal right of market access for suppliers based in the UK and Gibraltar which currently enjoy rights under the EU defence and security directive. After exit day, we will still allow bids from suppliers in the EU on the same basis as we do now for suppliers currently outside the EU. This reflects the UK’s new status as a third country outside the EU.
Although the amending regulations are mainly about EU exit in a no-deal scenario, they also make some updates and corrections to the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011. They will come into force before exit day regardless of whether there is no deal.
To sum up briefly, it is through these amending regulations that the Government will ensure that UK defence and security procurement continues to function properly and appropriately, with solid legal foundations underpinning it. It is this instrument that will give procurers and suppliers the confidence and continuity in procurement they need in a no-deal scenario. I commend these regulations to the Committee. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, this is the first statutory instrument related to Brexit that I have had the joy, or misfortune, to be involved with. In that sense I am quite glad that it has two purposes, one of which is valid regardless of whether there is a no-deal Brexit. However, one does wonder, given that the relevant legislation was repealed in 2011, why it has taken Her Majesty’s Government quite so long to bring this to our attention in the SI.
On the other aspect of the SI, many of the questions I have noted are very similar to the questions raised by noble Lords on the previous SI. According to the statutory instrument, Regulations 3 and 4 come into effect on exit day. Will the Minister explain what would happen in a transition period? Exit day would still presumably be 29 March, but at that point we would stop using the Official Journal to advertise things. Will we be in a situation where, somehow, the statutory instrument does not come into effect? Is it like the previous SI and will come into effect not on exit day, but only after some transitional period? Otherwise there would seem to be a bit of a gap. The UK would not quite be at a cliff edge, but the situation would be somewhat unclear because we would not have the situation I envisaged would be the case during the transition period.
I will ask various questions that go beyond the nitty-gritty of the regulations. Will the Minister explain what Her Majesty’s Government envisage by the statutory instrument in terms of access to UK markets? There is already a whole set of questions about overspends and the Public Accounts Committee has asked questions about defence procurement. If we are in a new world where EU defence contractors are treated like third-country defence contractors, have the Government modelled the impact this is likely to have on defence procurement? Will it mean that the UK will spend more on defence procurement than was the case when it was a member of the European Union? Similarly, what work have Her Majesty’s Government done on evaluating the impact on our arms export industry of not being part of the single market? If we are treating the EU 27 as third countries, presumably they will not exercise the reciprocity of access to their defence industry and defence exports that we have enjoyed. There are some wider questions on the impact the Government think we will see from Brexit if we are not part of the single market for defence exports.
I have various technical questions. Like other noble Lords, I have spent quite a long time reading the Explanatory Memorandum. I am intrigued to note that the Minister can confirm that it meets the required standard. What counts as the required standard, and what can we expect to see in an EM? Are there things that we might find even more useful for understanding what is going on? The memorandum is certainly rather easier to follow than the SI as it is drafted.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has asked a number of pertinent questions. I hesitate to intervene in this area, because this is the first time I have ever made any remarks in the House on defence issues. I have always regarded the defence of the realm as so capably safeguarded by other noble Lords, not least the noble Earl himself—and, indeed, his family historically—that I never thought I needed to intervene in such affairs. I have two questions, which will reveal my ignorance but seem to be important in the context of us leaving the European Union in a no-deal scenario. The noble Earl said that once we have left in a no-deal scenario, we will allow bids in the defence sector from inside the EU on the same basis as we currently allow them from outside it. What is that basis? Is it codified? Looking at it from a great distance, I have always thought that we are extremely selective in the countries and suppliers outside the EU from which we are prepared to entertain bids for defence contracts. For example, I do not believe that at the moment we entertain bids from Chinese companies—and some other countries—for extremely good reasons. What is the noble Earl saying? Is there a document to which he can point me, and those who will be reading these proceedings, showing the basis for bids being entertained? The noble Earl may correct me, but if the basis on which we allow bids from outside the EU at the moment is essentially arbitrary, will that be the same basis on which we allow bids from existing EU states after Brexit?
I know that the noble Earl was simply reading his brief, but in his positive-sounding remarks at the outset he said that there would be real opportunities in procurement from leaving the EU, which I took to mean also in a no-deal scenario. It is not immediately obvious what those real opportunities are. Will he tell the Grand Committee something about them, as there are many disadvantages in leaving the EU? Readers of our proceedings will be delighted to know that there are some opportunities and would be grateful for any optimism that the noble Earl can provide for the world after 29 March if we leave without a deal.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for introducing this statutory instrument. On the other hand, that is not really true: the facts of life are that I would rather not spend my weekend studying SIs for a scenario that is deeply absurd and the Government should have ruled out many months ago. It is, however, forced upon us.
Initially, I tried to read the Explanatory Memorandum while applying the test that I have been using so far—that there is no new policy except what is necessary to smooth the transition. That is essentially the test of the withdrawal Act. He has already said, however, that this SI goes beyond what is allowed in the withdrawal Act. I noticed that the SI also prays in aid the infamous—as I would call it—European Communities Act 1972, which must have the grandest powers of any piece of primary legislation. Since, therefore, this is quite important—that the Government are seeking to mix the two—I would be grateful if he could give a little more detail on where the 1972 Act has been used and where he is praying in aid the 2018 withdrawal Act.
I found the Explanatory Memorandum difficult to understand because it requires considerable previous knowledge. I can find only one area of concern. In general, the references to the requirement for a new organisation—for new parts of government to take over what is happening in the EU—all seem to make sense.
Essentially, I think the Minister has said that this SI leaves the situation unchanged. Does that mean that the requirement to put defence procurement up for both domestic and international tender is unchanged, except where derogated under provisions similar to Article 346, which I assume is written into the regulations? Does the derogation for national security reasons remain unchanged? Has it been decided that it should not be enhanced, as many of us would argue it should, to include wider, more long-term considerations, such as the preservation of UK sovereign capability by favouring UK firms in some circumstances? This measure seems to create a situation where the rest of the world can bid for UK contracts except where derogated. Does that mean that UK firms will be able to bid for foreign contracts, particularly opportunities in the EEA?
Finally, can the Minister indicate what will happen to these regulations in the event of a deal? Do they die in total or in parts? How will the deaths be managed?
Earl Howe
My Lords, once again I thank the noble Lords who have contributed to this debate for their questions, which I will do my best to answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, both asked a similar question about the coming into force of these regulations and the circumstances in which they might not come into force. These amending regulations apply only in a no-deal scenario, other than the changes being made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was slightly unclear as to how we could avail ourselves of powers under that Act if we are not a member of the community. The answer is that we are still a member of the European Union and we can avail ourselves of the powers under the 1972 Act until such time as we cease to be members. The very minor adjustments we are making will come into force regardless of whether there is a deal or no deal. If the withdrawal agreement enters into force, the UK, with certain specific caveats, will be treated as an EU member state for the duration of the implementation period. Therefore, the current DSPCRs will continue to apply for that period, albeit with the updates and corrections made in Regulation 2.
The noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked about those changes. They are very minor. They are, in the main, changes required to resolve outdated references and to correct an omission arising from an amendment to the European Economic Area agreement. There is an amendment to the definition of “member state” to add Norway and Iceland, ensuring that economic operators from those two EEA states are covered. Again, that amendment is required regardless of whether the exit-related changes come into force. There are various other minor changes that I can read out, but I think it would be tedious if I were to do so.
The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about the effect of the coming into force of these regulations on UK companies and what the benefits to UK industry are likely to be. The main benefit for both UK and Gibraltarian suppliers will be stability and continuity of working regulations, which are well established, understood and practiced. Importantly, UK and Gibraltarian suppliers will continue to enjoy legal rights to participate in UK defence and security procurements. Other non-UK economic operators, save for those in Gibraltar, will not have these rights under the amending regulations. I make it clear that that is not to say that only UK or Gibraltarian suppliers can bid for defence and security procurements. As noble Lords will know, the UK has a long-standing practice of allowing overseas suppliers to participate in defence and security procurements where there is no need for restrictions on who can bid in some way—for example, on national security grounds.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked whether UK companies would be disadvantaged regarding their access to the EU market. As a matter of EU law, EU member states will no longer be legally obliged to open their defence and security procurements to UK suppliers, as the EU defence and security directive will no longer apply to the UK after exit day. However, it has to be said that our UK suppliers are recognised as world class. They offer extraordinary experience and expertise in defence. Individual EU member states therefore may choose to give UK suppliers access to their competitions to maximise the effectiveness of their procurements in the same way as the UK does. There is a strong case in terms not only of value for money but of other considerations, such as interoperability and cutting-edge capability.
Lord Tunnicliffe
I feel that I have lost my place. Is the Minister saying that non-derogated invitations to tender will be restricted to the UK suppliers and Gibraltar, or will they be available to worldwide competition, with certain exceptions?
Earl Howe
It will depend on the procurement. If it is determined that the procurement rate relates to an issue necessitating the protection of UK sovereign capability, as in the case of the construction of warships, we would restrict the tendering process to UK-based suppliers. However, the generality of defence procurement is opened up to the widest market possible, although, as was pointed out, we make clear in certain procurements that we will not entertain bids from certain countries. Each procurement has its operational basis made clear at the outset.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked whether we will give state aid to suppliers. We have no intention of providing state aid to UK suppliers, which is incompatible with our state aid regime. I am sure she will not be surprised to hear that. Having said that, it is important to understand that there are ways we can alert our home-based industry to forthcoming procurements to enable them to prepare their bids in good time and understand our needs. That process is already under way; we are clear that the entire procurement process needs to be smoother than it perhaps has been. That is not the same as state aid, however.
The noble Baroness also asked whether the Government have modelled the impact of the change on UK defence exports. As I said, defence suppliers will lose their legal rights to participate in procurement in the EU 27, but the quality of our companies should ensure that many EU member states will still wish to entertain bids from our defence industry. As the noble Baroness knows, the UK defence industry participates in co-operative defence projects, such as Eurofighter; that will not change either.
Lord Tunnicliffe
I am sorry to ask the same question over and again, but it is important: putting the derogated areas covered presently by Article 346 to one side, do the regulations—noble Lords must realise that I cannot read them; it took all my time to read the Explanatory Memorandum and try to understand it—require the UK to put non-derogated opportunities to international tender, or is that a matter for the United Kingdom Government’s discretion on a project-by-project basis?
Earl Howe
It is important to understand that competition remains at the heart of our approach to defence procurement. Currently, we routinely allow bids from suppliers outside the EU, although the current legislation provides a legal right of access only for suppliers based in EU member states. Where we restrict who can bid in some way—for example, on national security grounds, as I have mentioned—we would make that clear at the outset in the advert or in any pre-procurement documentation.
That position will not change after exit day. Suppliers in the EU and elsewhere will still be free to bid for procurements where no limitations are specified. What is changing is that bidders from the remaining EU member states will not have a legal right to bid for defence contracts; this is the same position as for suppliers currently based outside the EU. I hope that answers the noble Lord’s question.
Lord Adonis
If the noble Earl will forgive me, I think I follow what he is saying, but I invite him to say whether I have understood him correctly. Because we will no longer be part of the EU procurement regime, we will have no statutory obligation to make these contracts available to bidders from the EU, but we intend to continue to invite applications from those countries. Is he saying that, in practice, for suppliers from the EU—leaving aside those from outside the EU about which we have security concerns—there will be no change in the bidding regime as a result of a no-deal Brexit? If that is not correct, and there will be a change, could he tell the Grand Committee what that change would be?
Earl Howe
For UK Government defence procurements, the process from the point of view of an EU supplier will be no different. What it will experience is the need to bear in mind two separate portals or bidding channels; one is the UK e-notification system, which I mentioned earlier, and the other is OJEU. It will need to keep an eye on both if it wishes to participate in the Europe-wide market; in using that phrase, I include the UK as still being a European country, even if not a member of the EU.
Lord Tunnicliffe
The noble Earl says there will be no changes. I understand that at the moment, in non-derogated areas, EU suppliers have a right to bid and we have an obligation to take their bids seriously. I think that under the new situation they do not have this right and that whether they are allowed to bid will be a matter of policy. That policy could change year by year or Government by Government.
Earl Howe
That is technically right. It is our policy to maintain access for EU member states—and indeed, non-EU states—in many, if not most, instances of procurement. A good example might be the fleet solid support ships. We invited tenders from all over the world to build those ships and that should provide the best value for money. We all hope that UK suppliers will feel confident in bidding for that contract, but we wish to benefit the taxpayer as well as the Royal Navy and the process will be an open one.
To answer one point which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, alluded to, there will of course be opportunities to reform the defence procurement rules after we leave the EU. The current rules are generally seen as out of date, compared to the PCR 2015. We have the opportunity to take a fresh look at what is needed for defence procurement—
Earl Howe
They are the Public Contracts Regulations 2015. This will involve public consultation to ensure that we strike the best balance between value for money and protecting national security. However, I emphasise that that is a long-term project and does not relate to the regulations before us today.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about exit day in the event of a deal. As with the non-defence procurement that we debated earlier, any amendment to exit day as a result of a deal will track through from the EU withdrawal Act to these regulations. Therefore, the no-deal element of the amendments will not come into force.
I hope I have explained clearly the effect of Article 346 and why we have replicated it in the regulations but, just to make doubly clear, it is to ensure we can continue to disapply the procurement rules when required to protect our national security interests. For example, if we did not do so we would be required to advertise our sensitive procurements as a matter of domestic law. In so far as I have not answered noble Lords’ questions I will certainly do so in writing, as for the previous debate, but I hope that my responses have clarified any points of uncertainty.
Collective Investment Schemes (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
That the Grand Committee do consider the Collective Investment Schemes (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, as this instrument has been grouped, I will speak also to the Long-term Investment Funds (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. The Treasury has been undertaking a programme of legislation to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period, there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK. The Treasury is laying SIs under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to deliver this, and a number of debates on these SIs have already been undertaken here and in another place. The SIs being debated today are part of this programme and have been debated and approved in the other place.
These SIs will fix deficiencies in UK law on investment funds to ensure they continue to operate effectively post exit. The approach taken in this legislation aligns with that of other SIs being laid under the EU withdrawal Act, providing continuity by maintaining existing legislation at the point of exit but amending where necessary to ensure that it works effectively in a no-deal context.
Turning to the substance of these instruments, noble Lords may remember previous debates relating to alternative investment funds and their subcategories on 16 January. Those instruments, along with these being debated today, will ensure there is a functioning legislative and regulatory system for investment funds in the UK. The first instrument focuses specifically on the regulation of Undertakings for Collective Investments in Transferable Securities, commonly known as UCITS, which are funds aimed at retail investors. The second instrument relates to long-term investment funds, a further subcategory of alternative investment funds that promote long-term investment, such as in infrastructure and small and medium-sized enterprises. In a no-deal scenario, the UK would be outside the EEA and the EU’s legal, supervisory and financial regulatory framework. Retained EU and domestic law relating to the regulation of UCITS and long-term investment funds needs to be updated to reflect this.
I will begin with the collective investment schemes regulations. First, this instrument removes references to the Union and to EU legislation that will no longer have legal effect, replacing them where appropriate with references to the UK and UK legislation. It removes obligations to co-operate with EU authorities and defunct references to the EEA passporting system. However, as set out in FSMA and other legislation, it maintains the ability for co-operation between authorities which may be in the interests of both the UK and the EEA.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, we have allowed my noble friend Lady Bowles to go off to her committee today so I am afraid that there is somebody on these Benches with a far less-detailed knowledge of the intricacies of the relevant pieces of legislation. That may be of some relief but she will be back on future occasions so the respite is only temporary.
We have no objection to these two SIs, although I would like to probe around them a little. Clearly the UK Government should make this move because, frankly, EEA UCITS with a presence here in London suddenly fleeing because of a lack of temporary permissions would be a hole beneath the waterline for the future of fund management in London. The measure is absolutely necessary. The vast majority of those funds have said that if they had to go back and apply again as third countries for third-country permissions to keep their existing funds in place, they would prefer to exit. That is the situation with which we are dealing so the Government’s move is appropriate.
However, noble Lords will be aware that a great deal of money has already fled London. Two or three weeks ago, EY provided a report setting the number of assets to have left the City, primarily funds, at around £800 billion. With the latest Barclays announcement, that takes the number to about £1 trillion, which is a reasonable amount of assets under management to have left because of Brexit. So that everybody understands, I say that this is not about people being disloyal or unpatriotic. One of the companies involved, Somerset Capital Management—co-founded by Jacob Rees-Mogg—domiciled two recently launched funds in Dublin, apparently because of the demands of various clients. Clearly, a great deal of the movement out of London has been client-led.
That is a problem because conglomeration is a very powerful factor in driving this industry forward. Losing something like £1 trillion of funds under management and finding that many players are playing double-handed, with a presence in both London and somewhere else—typically in Dublin but perhaps in other places in the EU 27—puts into doubt a future never before doubted: that London would dominate in this area. Did I understand correctly from the Minister—and do I understand correctly from reading the instrument—that the transitional arrangements described are simply to provide continuity for existing London-domiciled EEA UCITS? Has there been any assessment of the likelihood of new funds to open choosing London for their headquarters? Has there been any assessment of whether the limited reach of the regulations means that, if we leave on 29 March, funds to open later in the year are far less likely to be London-domiciled because they will have to apply through a third-country process? I would be interested to understand that.
In a sense, that leads me on to the impact statement, which is peculiar. The Minister is absolutely right that the statement is recent: I think it went online on Friday and was printed only today. The costs are defined in the summary as “Unknown: likely significant”. But the description which follows that brief table says that the only really quantifiable costs on businesses are,
“marginal compared to the … costs arising from the UK leaving the EU”—
thank goodness, as this is one tiny area—and that they,
“mainly consist of familiarisation costs”.
Has there been any attempt in that estimate of significance to estimate the changing pattern of investment for new funds that will follow, because of the limited nature of this new SI? From a cost perspective, I do not know whether that has been included in the numbers.
The benefits are described as “significant” but, again, we have no numbers around any of that. I suppose that one person’s significant differs from another’s but it seems that it is significant compared to having nothing to protect us from a cliff edge. I can certainly understand that that is significant but it seems peculiar, frankly, to suggest it as a benefit. The status quo is clearly the benefit; there are no costs and there is no reduction in the future location of funds in the UK. A benefit that basically avoids the damage of a cliff edge seems a terribly odd description.
Finally, I saw the humour on the Minister’s face, and I share it, at the second SI, which deals with long-term investment funds. Since, as I understand it, this is a continuity and rollover SI and there are no funds, can he help me with the logic of why we are bothering with it? I do not mind it being on the statute book but it seems slightly redundant to provide for the continuity of nothing. I thought that the Minister might help me in this context with these issues, but we will of course oppose neither instrument.
Lord Young of Cookham
I think I can help the noble Baroness on that. There are no UK-based funds of this nature but there are some based in the EU—about five—that market into the UK. Those are the ones that will be able to apply for a temporary passport.
Baroness Kramer
I find that very helpful and I thank the Minister for saying that.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument but I repeat my concern that we are considering such instruments at all. I and my party feel that the Government should have given a commitment that we would not have a no-deal exit; day by day, there is growing evidence that such an exit will be disastrous for our country. I will say no more on that but try to process these SIs on their merits against—how shall I put it?—the strict limitation that we are assuming a no-deal situation and recognising that things have to be done to achieve that.
The Treasury, I assume to be consistent, has reproduced the same eight paragraphs in all the Explanatory Memorandums. Paragraph 7.4, which I will repeat, says:
“These SIs are not intended to make policy changes, other than to reflect the UK’s new position outside the EU, and to smooth the transition to this situation”.
It is against that test that I spent my time studying the Explanatory Memorandum. It seems to do all the right things: it creates a new name; it says that passporting dies; and it goes on to offer a temporary permission regime. This regime may last for up to three years, or three years and 12 months, or three years and 24 months, or perhaps for ever. One has to view the SI in the light of that regime.
Lord Young of Cookham
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for their broad support for the statutory instrument before us. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, implied that she was not well informed on financial matters, but we all know that not to be the case. I agree with what she said about the TPRs. These are sensible measures, not least for seeking to keep the City of London’s pre-eminent position in financial markets at the forefront of our priorities.
The noble Baroness mentioned the migration of funds. I, too, saw the EY report. The £800 billion figure was an estimation of firms’ stated intentions rather than of actual assets transferred. The report states that the estimate is a “modest” sum when compared to the total assets of the UK banking sector, which stand at almost £8 trillion. None the less, it underlines the case for taking forward measures such as this to prevent any unnecessary migration of funds out of the UK. She also asked whether new funds could be established. The answer is that where there is an umbrella fund with lots of sub-funds, an existing umbrella fund with a sub-fund approved under the TPR can then get another sub-fund approved subsequently because it shares the same governance structure as the original one, so it has already been validated. Otherwise, a brand new one would have to start from scratch, in the way that the noble Baroness implied.
The noble Baroness asked about the impact assessment, She is quite right that it was published recently. These impact assessments focus narrowly on the changes that these SIs make and how businesses will need to respond. They do not deal with the broader economic impact of leaving the EU. The whole point of these SIs is to try, wherever possible, to maintain stability and continuity and minimise the amount of turbulence for firms involved. An impact assessment for the EU withdrawal Act deals with the impact of the parent Act; the Government have also published analysis of the potential economic impact of a range of scenarios, including no deal. These SIs mitigate the impact of leaving the EU without a deal. As the noble Baroness said, if they were not in place, there would be substantially more disruption and turbulence for the industry as a whole.
I think I have dealt with temporary marketing permissions. New EEA UCITS that are not sub-funds with temporary permissions, as I have just described, will have to use the third-country regime to market into the UK after exit day. The instrument does not change the process for authorising UK UCITS; that remains the same. There should be minimal change for the domestic industry.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, reiterated his opposition to no deal, which I understand and which he has made absolutely clear on earlier occasions. The best way to avoid no deal is to agree a deal; as I think he knows, the Prime Minister wants to meet others to identify what would be required to secure the backing of the House.
I think I answered the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about removing LTIFs, in that some market and want to go on doing so. It will allow for EEA funds that market into the UK before exit day to continue to do so through the temporary marketing permission regime. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, is right that it can be renewed at the end of three years. The TMPR can be extended only by the Treasury, pursuant to an FCA assessment on the effect of extending, or not extending, on financial markets, funds in the TMPR and the FCA’s objectives. It must also go through the House.
I was asked, if reciprocity is so important that they can continue marketing into this country, what about the reverse? The answer is that we can legislate only in relation to EEA funds and managers that passport into the UK. We cannot, through our own unilateral action, oblige them to do the same to us. That is why we are seeking to agree a deep and special partnership with the EU, as well as an implementation period—important for both of us—so we can have this reciprocity.
Baroness Kramer
On reciprocity, we know that some temporary permissions are now being provided by the EU. For example, the London Clearing House has been given 12 months. Does the Minister anticipate temporary permissions in this area? Some guidance would be extremely helpful for the industry.
Lord Young of Cookham
The noble Baroness makes a valid point. The answer may become available before I sit down. I agree that it would be of great value to firms based in this country if they could continue marketing into the EU in the event of no deal. I have just been handed the answer to an earlier question, which I have already replied to off the cuff. There may be some more in-flight refuelling.
On the response of industry to what we are doing, I draw the Committee’s attention to the remarks of Richard Withers, the head of government relations for Vanguard in Europe—one of the world’s largest asset management firms. He said that the collective investment scheme regulation that the Committee is debating now is a well-considered and well-drafted piece of secondary legislation, which removes possible disruptions to the UK public’s long-term investment and pension savings activity while also ensuring that the UK remains an attractive and pre-eminent target market into which global fund management companies distribute their products.
On the last point, it looks as if I may not be able to give a response to the very good question aimed at what representations are now being made by the Government or City institutions to encourage the EU and the relevant authorities there to do to us what we are in the process of doing to them. If I have not got the information by the time we reach the end of the next statutory instrument, I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I beg to move.
Long-term Investment Funds (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
That the Grand Committee do consider the Long-term Investment Funds (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Motion agreed.
Over the Counter Derivatives, Central Counterparties and Trade Repositories (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
That the Grand Committee do consider the Over the Counter Derivatives, Central Counterparties and Trade Repositories (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, as this instrument has been grouped, I will speak also to the Financial Markets and Insolvency Amendment and Transitional Provision (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
As with the instruments we have just debated, these two instruments are also part of the same legislative programme to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK.
Turning to the substance of the over-the-counter derivatives, central counterparties and trade repositories SI, many noble Lords will be familiar with the European market infrastructure regulation known as EMIR, which the EU implemented in 2012. It is Europe’s implementation of the G20 Pittsburgh commitment in 2009 to regulate over-the-counter derivative markets in the aftermath of the financial crisis, reduce risk and increase transparency in derivative markets. It should be noted that EMIR, and the financial markets and insolvency SI which we will come on to in a moment, concern activities that mainly take place on financial markets. EMIR imposes requirements on firms that enter into any form of derivative contract and establish common organisational, conduct-of-business and prudential standards for trade repositories and central counterparties. Central counterparties, for example, stand between counterparties in financial contracts, becoming the buyer to every seller and the seller to every buyer. They guarantee the terms of a trade, even if one party defaults on the agreement, thereby reducing counterparty risk.
This SI addresses deficiencies within EMIR and related UK legislation to ensure that after the UK has left the EU an effective legal supervisory and regulatory framework for over-the-counter derivatives, central counterparties and trade repositories remains. This instrument is the last of three key SIs that fix deficiencies in EMIR, and it follows two SIs which have already been debated in your Lordships’ House and which have subsequently been made: the central counterparties SI and the trade repositories SI.
Firstly, the SI continues key requirements of EMIR that include the clearing obligation, which requires firms to clear certain types of derivative contracts at a CCP, the reporting obligation, which requires firms and CCPs to report derivative trades to a registered or recognised trade repository, and margin requirements, which compel firms to put forward money to cover the costs associated with trades. In order to have a framework in place to facilitate these requirements the relevant functions are transferred from the European Commission to the Treasury, and from the European Securities and Markets Authority—ESMA—to the UK regulators, namely the Financial Conduct Authority or FCA, the Prudential Regulatory Authority, known as the PRA, and the Bank of England.
Secondly, the power of granting equivalence decisions for non-UK trade repositories is transferred from the European Commission to the Treasury and functions for recognising non-UK trade repositories are transferred from ESMA to the FCA. The SI also transfers powers from the Commission to the Treasury with regard to equivalence decisions on over-the-counter derivative requirements and whether non-UK markets are recognised for the purpose of trading exchange-traded derivatives.
Thirdly, a temporary intragroup exemption regime provides continuity by ensuring that exemptions from EMIR requirements for intragroup transactions will continue after exit day. The regime will last three years from exit day to allow time for consideration of an equivalence decision by the Treasury and for the FCA to determine a permanent exemption. This period can be extended by the Treasury if necessary. Under the MiFID II legislation, there is an exemption from clearing and margining for certain energy derivative contracts, and this exemption is maintained by this instrument. Finally, EU processes which will become redundant are removed and replaced with equivalent UK processes.
I turn now to the financial markets and insolvency SI. This instrument, broadly speaking, concerns insolvency-related protections that are provided to systems and central banks under the EU settlement finality directive, or SFD. Systems are financial market infrastructure, such as central counterparties, central security depositories and payment systems, which provide essential services and functions relied upon by the financial services sector.
Currently, if an EEA-based system is designated under the SFD and receives funds or securities from a system user—for example, a UK bank—those funds or securities cannot be clawed back in the event of the UK bank being subject to insolvency proceedings. Importantly, this framework also benefits system users, who could receive services on less favourable terms, or not at all, if the EEA system were not protected from UK insolvency law. In certain cases, membership of a system is contingent on these protections. Designation is therefore important as it facilitates the smooth functioning of, and confidence in, financial markets.
In order to become a designated system, a system must be approved by its designating authority—the Bank of England, in the case of the UK. The Bank then informs ESMA, which places it on the EU register of designated systems. The SFD provides similar protections to central bank functions across the EEA. Collateral received by an EEA central bank in accordance with its functions, such as emergency lending, cannot be clawed back if the relevant counterparty to the central bank is subject to insolvency proceedings.
The relevant EU laws—the SFD and the financial collateral arrangements directive—are implemented in the UK via the Financial Markets and Insolvency (Settlement Finality) Regulations 1999, the Companies Act 1989, the Financial Collateral Arrangements (No. 2) Regulations 2003 and the Banking Act 2009. Should the UK leave the EU without a deal or an implementation period, there will be no framework for the UK to recognise systems designated in EU member states, which in turn may risk continuity of services from those designated systems for UK firms.
This SI therefore establishes two main measures to mitigate these risks and ensure that settlement finality protections continue to operate effectively following the UK’s withdrawal. First, this SI establishes a UK framework for designating any non-UK system, while maintaining existing designations for systems that were designated by the Bank of England before exit day. To do this, the Bank of England’s powers to designate, and charge fees to, UK systems will be expanded to non-EEA systems, such that they can be designated under UK law. Moreover, the Bank will be able to grant protections to non-UK central banks, including EEA central banks, which already receive protections under the SFD. This will help maintain the effect of the current framework, providing continuity to UK firms accessing systems and central banks, while assisting UK firms in accessing the global market.
Secondly, the SI establishes a temporary designation regime. This provides temporary designation for a period of three years to existing designated EEA systems that intend to be designated under the UK’s framework. The purpose of temporary designation is to allow time for designation applications to be processed by the Bank of England while ensuring continuity of access for UK firms to relevant EEA systems immediately after exit day. The SI also gives the Treasury the power to extend this regime should more time be required to consider these applications.
The Treasury has been working very closely with the regulators in the drafting of the instruments. It has also engaged the financial services industry on these SIs and will continue to do so going forward. The Treasury published these instruments in draft alongside Explanatory Notes to maximise transparency to Parliament, industry and the public. That took place on 22 October and 31 October 2018 respectively for the Over the Counter Derivatives, Central Counterparties and Trade Repositories (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 and the Financial Markets and Insolvency (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. Furthermore, the Treasury published the impact assessment that accompanies these SIs, providing further transparency regarding the reasons behind, and foreseen impacts of, these proposals.
The Government believe that the proposed legislation is necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of financial markets in the UK if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting the regulations. I beg to move.
Lord Sharkey (LD)
My Lords, as the Minister noted, the first SI—dealing with OTC derivatives, CCPs and trade repositories—was published in draft on 22 October last year. The second, dealing with financial markets and insolvency, was published in draft on 31 October last year. The impact assessments for these SIs are contained in a consolidated batch of nine HMT impact assessments, which themselves rely occasionally on references to IAs for other SIs. That batch was published on 29 January, three months after the publication of the drafts and two working days before we were scheduled to debate them. Even one working day beforehand, last Friday morning, the IAs were not available in the Printed Paper Office. Can the Minister explain the very late appearance of the SIs and why the PPO did not have copies by Friday? Can he reconcile this late publication of IAs with giving Parliament proper time for scrutiny? Can he assure the Committee that future Treasury IAs will be published in good time and lodged with the PPO?
The consolidated IAs contain a headline assessment of cost and benefits. As to costs, there are three headings: “Total Transition”, “Average Annual” and “Total Cost”. In each case, the IA estimates the costs as “Unknown: likely significant”. This is unsatisfactory and raises the question of whether HMT understands the role that IAs play in parliamentary scrutiny. It is of no help that the consolidated IA reckons the benefits to be “significant” but declines to attempt to quantify them. In the remaining 52 pages of the impact assessment there is no real detailed examination or quantification of likely costs and benefits, apart from a reading time-based estimate and a passing reference to the trade repositories SI where costs are estimated, apparently, at £500,000 per TR. I say “apparently” because there is a typo in the cost reference for these TRs, so it is not clear whether the figure is meant to be £50,000 or £500,000. Perhaps the Minister can clear that up. I think that it would help the Committee in its scrutiny of future Treasury SIs if consolidation was avoided and we returned to individual impact assessments in proper form for each SI.
Turning to each SI, I found it quite hard in parts to follow the EM for the OTC derivatives, CCPs and TRs SI. I would be grateful for some clarification from the Minister. In paragraph 6.1, the EM notes that the SI revokes two pieces of delegated legislation. Will the Minister expand on what these are and why they are being revoked? The EM does not say why—or if it does, I could not find it. In paragraph 7.7, the EM explains that:
“As a general principle, the UK would need to default to treating EU Member States largely as it does other third countries, although there are cases where a different approach would be needed including to provide for a smooth transition to the new circumstances”.
The EM does not explain what these cases may be or what the different approach might be. Will the Minister tell the Committee what these cases are, or may be, and what different approaches will be needed, and why?
Paragraph 7.12 of the EM states:
“Where the Commission has taken equivalence decisions for third countries before exit day, these will be incorporated into UK law and will continue to apply to the UK’s regulatory and supervisory relationship with those third countries—with the exception of those taken under Article 25 EMIR as set out in the CCP Regulations”.
Will the Minister explain what these exceptions are and why they exist?
In paragraph 7.16, the EM notes that the SI introduces a power that allows the FCA to suspend the reporting obligation for up to one year, with the agreement of HM Treasury, where there is no registered UK TR available. Surely the Treasury must know how likely this is and who it will affect. Again, the EM and the impact assessment do not help—or at least did not help me. Will the Minister say how likely this suspension is, who it will affect and what its consequences and impact might be?
I turn briefly to the second instrument, the financial markets and insolvency regulations, which is, by comparison, a model of clarity and straightforwardness. My only question relates to paragraph 1.76 of the impact assessment, which explains that the relevant EEA systems will be required to notify the Bank of England, before exit day, to enter the regime. What happens if they do not? What risks does this generate, and what procedures are in place to mitigate them?
I realise that I have asked quite a few quite detailed questions, and if the Minister prefers to respond in writing I would be happy, as long as we have the answers before the SIs reach the Chamber. I emphasise that I feel strongly that the consolidation of IAs makes proper parliamentary scrutiny significantly more difficult, and the very late production of IAs, as in this case, really does not help.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, there is much that I would support in the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. I particularly like the way he sneaked in the fact that he got to page 41 of the IA.
The first instrument is on an area that I knew little about before I read it. With that limitation, it seems generally to make sense. It is clear about the transfer of functions, who will be responsible for equivalence decisions and information exchange—data comes over with a discretionary relationship. It is clear that the object of the exercise—at least this is how I read the Explanatory Memorandum—is to retain the discipline of EMIR. In view of its importance, I was surprised that a UK name for EMIR was not created, as was done in a previous SI, so that we would all know what we were talking about, given that the E in EMIR stands for European.
Going a little way into the detail, as the noble Lord pointed out, paragraph 7.16 allows a reporting obligation to be suspended for one year. From what I understand of the overall regime that this is part of, its very essence is open reporting of transactions. That is what the G20 came up with to create this regime. Will the Minister give us some feel for what risks are being taken by Part 2 of the instrument, which creates an opportunity for reporting to be suspended for up to one year? It also has what seems a fairly reasonable exemption for intragroup activity. It is a classic three years, plus however often the Treasury wants to extend it. It also has an exemption for energy derivative contracts up to 3 January 2021, but I could not see where that date came from; perhaps it is something to do with an international agreement.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
This is quite an important question. At the moment, LCH is the dominant clearing house globally and it is certainly the dominant player for any euro-denominated transactions. There is a shift under way to take some of this activity to Paris. The real question for a lot of the UK players is whether they have to relocate part of their operation to Paris to be able to play in both parts of what will become a much more fragmented European clearing system. That matters a lot for terms of compression and deciding what levels of margin companies have to keep. The reciprocal play matters. Today, the Bank of England and ESMA signed an MoU on how they will regulate these central counterparties. I do not know whether, or to what extent, that is the context. Am I being clear? No, I am being confusing.
Lord Tunnicliffe
No, that is very good. It might turn my casual question into quite a substantial one.
I notice that all the Treasury SIs that the Committee has discussed say that there will be no consolidation and no guidance. I do not know how we can carry on like this. I have found it absolutely impossible to understand the overall scene that these SIs relate to. The scrutiny that one is able to give is therefore entirely dependent on the Explanatory Memorandums. As a generality, these assume quite significant previous knowledge and it is an uphill battle to get a feel for these SIs and to give them the appropriate scrutiny.
Lord Young of Cookham
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. I detected no objection to the basic premises on which these SIs are based. I will sweep up some of the points raised in earlier debates that are also relevant to this one.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the FCA’s resources to cope with the new responsibilities being imposed on it. We are confident that the FCA is making adequate preparation and is effectively resourced ahead of March this year. In its 2018-19 business plan, a significant proportion of its resources are already focused on the forthcoming exit, including arrangements to implement any necessary changes. It has increased its staff numbers in response to increases in the scope of its regulatory activity, including EU withdrawal. It will publish its 2019-20 plan this spring, setting out its planned work for the coming year. As I said in response to an earlier SI, the chief executive of the FCA, Andrew Bailey, has said he expects to hold FCA fees steady for a year or two, assuming there is an implementation period. If there is not, it can increase its fees should it need to do so in the event of no deal.
The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked about the impact assessment being published late. This issue was raised in another place and was dealt with by my ministerial colleague John Glen. We do recognise the importance of making impact assessments available for parliamentary scrutiny. We find ourselves in a unique situation. While we have tried to ensure that these impact assessments are published before debates, this has not always been possible. We acknowledge that some firms will incur costs as a result of these SIs but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said in an earlier debate, the situation for these businesses would be much worse in the absence of this legislation. As a whole, these SIs will reduce costs to business in a no-deal scenario as without them the legislation would be defective. In response to the points raised by both noble Lords and the noble Baroness, we have agreed to undertake further analysis of these SIs in the event that we leave the EU without a deal and they come into effect.
The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked whether we could have independent assessments for SIs. I understand that, but there are some complex interdependencies between some of the SIs. Also, the work that the regulators are undertaking cannot always be neatly pigeonholed between the SIs. Given that, it has not been possible to fully quantify the impact of the individual SIs at this stage. However, this is something that Miles Celic, the chief executive of TheCityUK, noted in a letter to the RPC in November. As I said a moment ago, we are committed to undertaking further analysis of the impact of these instruments at an appropriate point, should they come into effect, either in the event of leaving without a deal—
Lord Tunnicliffe
We hear that explanation and I have great sympathy for the civil servants involved with this task. However, will the Minister at least have the grace to admit that it was entirely in the Government’s hands to decide when to start this process? If they had started it earlier we would not be in this mess now. We have had impact assessment after impact assessment delivered after we have approved the instrument. That is not satisfactory and I doubt whether the Treasury will be able to catch up.
Lord Young of Cookham
I plead guilty as charged. As I said a moment ago, we recognise the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. We will try to do better and make sure that the relevant impact assessments are available in time.
Lord Sharkey
I asked about the absence of the impact assessments from the Printed Paper Office. That is the route by which most of our colleagues get the information. They were transmitted electronically to some noble Lords on 29 January, but they were not available in printed form until this morning. That seems a very odd lapse.
Lord Young of Cookham
Again, I take that seriously. Would the noble Lord allow me to make some inquiries within the machinery of government in this House to find out what exactly went wrong there? I understand that they were delivered to the Printed Paper Office on Friday.
Baroness Kramer
Having gone to the Printed Paper Office myself well into the afternoon, I know that if the Printed Paper Office had received them, it was not aware it had, so there is something there that needs investigation.
Lord Young of Cookham
We need a post-mortem on this, which I will authorise.
In response to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, regarding the numbers on the impact assessment, and how they relate to trade repositories, I say that there are eight trade repositories operating in the EEA that are in scope of familiarisation costs. The impact assessment confirmed that we anticipate that the IT costs for those TRs will be approximately £10,000 to £15,000 per TR—although this cost is also dependent on the size of the TR—and, for firms that will need to update their systems, £5,000 per firm. Costs to the FCA associated with supervising the trade repositories, as well as new IT systems to connect to trade repositories, would be approximately £500,000 per trade repository, although this cost is also dependent on their size. The impact assessment also acknowledged that there may be other costs associated with trade repositories connecting to the Bank of England.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and it may have also been the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, who asked about the FCA’s power to suspend the need to report if there were no trade repositories. That is most unlikely. There are a number of trade repositories in the UK and there are arrangements in the legislation to passport them so they carry on. There are also arrangements for relatively speedily authorising any new TRs. It was slightly odd that a city such as the City of London did not have any TRs, so we think it most unlikely that the FCA will utilise its power to suspend reporting obligations against that background.
In the earlier debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me whether the EU was considering reciprocity to UK funds in a no-deal scenario. The EU has not done the same for UK funds passporting into the EU, but many UK asset management firms operate EU fund ranges, and they have welcomed the creation of the temporary marketing permission regime, which enables them to market them into the UK.
I was asked what happens to an EEA system that does not notify the Bank of England of entering the TDR. Such a system will not enter the temporary designation regime and it will therefore not have recognition for UK insolvency law purposes. A notification is not an onerous requirement; the Bank of England provided details of this last autumn. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, pointed out that under Section 8 we cannot create any new criminal offences, or, I think, create new taxes or new public authorities, and I am confident that nothing in the SIs goes against that restraint.
Lord Tunnicliffe
The appropriate paragraph does say that you are substituting one set of criminal offences with another. I can find it and read it if you like; it is a real question. I think the answer is in the word “relevant”.
Lord Young of Cookham
The noble Lord asked a good question: is the creation of a criminal offence consistent with the withdrawal Act? Section 8 outlaws the creation of a relevant criminal offence. This is defined in Section 20 of the Act as an offence with a possible prison term of more than two years. The criminal offence in this SI is not caught by that definition, so it is permitted.
Following an intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I was asked about unilaterally recognising EEA systems as central banks with no EU-wide reciprocal action. Extending settlement finality protections unilaterally reduces the risk that UK firms will be refused access to EEA financial market infrastructures, known as systems, and central banks once the UK leaves the EU. It also reduces the legal uncertainty and settlement risk these systems and central banks would face regarding UK law without such protections, so it ensures that the UK remains an attractive place to do business in a global context and supports broader financial stability.
I am conscious that I might not have answered all the penetrating questions from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, or some others that have been raised. If I have not, I will write to noble Lords, I hope with an authoritative reply.
Financial Markets and Insolvency (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
That the Grand Committee do consider the Financial Markets and Insolvency (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
House of Lords
Introduction: Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford
Oaths and Affirmations
Health: Public Health Grant
Baroness Barker
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the decision announced on 20 December 2018 to reduce the Public Health Grant to local authorities for 2019/20 by £85 million.
Baroness Manzoor (Con)
My Lords, despite funding pressures, councils are successfully improving people’s health, and most indicators of public health are stable or improving. Since 2011, the number of smokers has dropped by a fifth. Last year, 98% of adults accessing drug treatment services did so within three weeks and 90% of people with HIV were treated successfully. Future budgets will be influenced by the next spending review, when we intend to make a robust case for the value of prevention.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, local authority public health budgets have been reduced by £700 million since 2014. Due to rising rates of gonorrhea and syphilis and the problems young people have in accessing contraception, does the Minister not think there is an urgent need to rethink the Government’s strategy?
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, as I said, we will be making a robust case for the value of prevention in the spending review. The reduction to the grant to which the noble Baroness refers is not a new cut. It was agreed in the 2015 spending review in a difficult financial environment. Local authorities have been aware of these cuts for over a year and have been able to plan accordingly. But there is much more to public health than the grant itself—for example, our national childhood obesity strategy and NHS England’s world-leading diabetes prevention programme. As the noble Baroness knows, the NHS long-term plan has an emphasis on prevention.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I was the Secretary of State who introduced the public health grant to local government. Is my noble friend the Minister aware that this was done because many of the wider social determinants of health can be better influenced through the action of local authorities than by the NHS alone? That was the reason why the public health grant was included within the ring fence in 2010 to 2014, which guaranteed a real-terms increase in the public health grant to local authorities; this was reversed in 2014. Will my noble friend the Minister consider restoring the value and growth of the public health grant in the context of an agreement with local authorities to act on those wider social determinants of health?
Baroness Manzoor
I agree with my noble friend, and that is why we are making a robust case to the Treasury in relation to the spending review. Health improvement is about far more than the services funded through the grant, as my noble friend says. The transfer of local health responsibility to local government provided the opportunity to join up public health with decisions on other local services such as housing and economic regeneration. We see local authorities commissioning different kinds of public health services which better fit local circumstances and priorities and deliver improved value. We therefore recognise the importance of the grant.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register of interests. I want to develop the question from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. Demand for sexual and reproductive health services is rising. Public health data has indicated a 13% increase in attendance at sexual health services between 2013 and 2017, and over the same period the Health Foundation has found that health budgets have been cut by 25%. Will the Government’s prevention Green Paper therefore include a call for fully funded local authority public health services?
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, is right: spending on sexual health in 2017-18 has reduced by 4.3% from 2016-17. However, a reduction in spend does not necessarily mean a deterioration in outcomes. For example, the number of hospital admissions for drug-related mental health and behavioural disorders has dropped 16% since 2015-16. The Green Paper on prevention will set out further plans in much more detail, considering the best available evidence.
Lord Laming
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is actually not in the interests of the NHS to cut local authority public health services? Local authorities should be celebrated for what they are doing in many different fields, not least in supporting charitable bodies that are doing so much, in addition to what we have all heard of, by supporting people who are socially isolated and depressed and would otherwise be admitted to hospital.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, local authorities and charities are doing an excellent job and I commend the work they are doing, but the Government are investing £16 billion during the current spending review period on the provision of local authority public health services. That is on top of funding for Public Health England and what the NHS itself spends, which includes over £1 billion on immunisation and screening programmes and £340 million in 2016-17 on vaccine stocks. I agree that local authorities do a great job in challenging times.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, can we return the Minister to the original Question? Does she agree that increasing spending for the NHS, including a prevention vision, in the 10-year plan while cutting funding for services that impact on public health is a false economy? Could she please explain to the House the dichotomy of saying, “We want to spend more money on public health”, but actually cutting public health spending? Frankly, I am stumped.
Baroness Manzoor
I think I have already answered the Question. The reduction in the grant to which the noble Baroness has referred is not a new cut, as I have already said. It was agreed in the 2015 spending review, in a difficult financial environment. Difficult decisions had to be made. Local authorities have been aware of these cuts for over a year and have been able to plan accordingly. I have already stressed the balance we have between prevention and ensuring we address that. We are going to be putting £4.5 billion into primary and community care services, in addition to the money we are already putting into current services.
Baroness Jolly (LD)
My Lords, we seem to be relying more on local government: additional preventive health campaigns; local five-year plans as part of the integrated care system; and greater social care provisions. Can the Minister please articulate exactly how the December 2018 reduction of the public health grant can have any positive impact for local authorities?
Baroness Manzoor
I understand the point that the noble Baroness is making, but I have already said that this is part of a longer plan. The grant in itself is not the only part of the NHS plan. There is much wider spending by the local authorities and joined-up thinking. The Green Paper that I have already mentioned, Prevention is Better than Cure, was published on 5 November 2018. This will support healthy life expectancy, by at least five extra years by 2035, and close the gap between the richest and the poorest. The Government are taking concerted and proper action to address these issues.
NHS Staffing: Long-term Plan
Baroness Wheeler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will ensure that there are sufficient nurses, doctors and community specialist care staff to deliver the National Health Service long-term plan, published on 7 January 2019.
Baroness Manzoor (Con)
My Lords, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has commissioned the chair of NHS Improvement, working closely with the chair of Health Education England, to lead a number of programmes to engage with key NHS interests to develop a detailed workforce implementation plan. These programmes will consider proposals to grow the workforce, including consideration of additional staff and the skills required to build a supportive working culture and ensure first-rate leadership for NHS staff.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
I thank the Minister for her Answer. Both the NAO and the Commons Public Accounts Committee have stressed that the NHS long-term plan is at risk and cannot be delivered if current staff shortages of over 100,000 are not addressed, and if we do not recruit more staff in key specialities to meet future need and demand. Last Thursday’s major debate on the plan showed that this view is shared across the House.
Today is World Cancer Day. The ambition in the plan, for example, to diagnose 75% of cancers at stage one or two by 2028 is welcome, but there are chronic staff shortages in the cancer workforce across both primary and acute care, with more than one in 10 diagnostic posts currently unfilled. It is the same scenario for other key priority ambitions in the plan, but the long-term workforce implementation plan, as the noble Baroness said, has yet to be drawn up, developed and costed, and is not included in the extra funding promised for the NHS. Do the Government have any idea how they are going to take the NHS plan forward?
Baroness Manzoor
We absolutely do. The NHS employs record numbers of staff now compared to any other time in its 70-year history, with significant growth in newly qualified staff over the period from 2012. There are almost 13,400 more nurses on our wards since 2010. However, the noble Baroness is right—the current vacancy levels are not sustainable. Therefore the Government have put several actions in place to increase nursing workforce supply, covering improving staff retention, return to practice, overseas recruitment, expanding nursing associates, improving sickness absence and a review of language controls.
Lord Naseby (Con)
Bearing in mind that one of the key problems facing doctors is those leaving the NHS as soon as they qualify—a significant number, both male and female, choose to go abroad—should the Government not have a look at the Singapore system, where they have to sign up for five years once they qualify and after that it is entirely free, regarding their medical practice?
Baroness Manzoor
I thank my noble friend for that question. I am certainly aware of the Singapore model. I reassure him that we are expanding undergraduate medical education by funding an additional 1,500 medical school places in England. We have also recently announced the removal of doctors and nurses from the ambit of the cap on tier 2 visas, which means that all overseas doctors needed in the UK should be able to come and work here. We have more doctors than ever before, but there is no doubt that the pressures are huge. That is why we want to train more doctors. However, I understand the point that my noble friend makes, which is perhaps something we need to consider.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
Do the Government recognise the GMC’s statement that the medical profession is on the brink of breaking point, that up to a third of doctors report being burnt out and that around 10% at times have depression? There is evidence that errors are twice as likely to be made by people who feel burnt out. Do the Government recognise that this is urgent and whatever plans they have to train more people will take several years to come through the system?
Baroness Manzoor
I agree with the noble Baroness: we need to take care of our workforce and ensure that supportive mechanisms are in place so that there is greater flexible working. We are already looking at medical training and different modules. We want a first-class workforce and we will do everything in our power to support doctors so that they stay and remain healthy while they work in the NHS.
The Lord Bishop of Lincoln
Is the Minister aware that we have recently opened a new medical school in the University of Lincoln? We hope that this will assist the recruitment and retention of more doctors. However, what are the Government doing to mitigate the increased cost of specialist community nursing provision in remote and sparsely populated rural areas?
Baroness Manzoor
I am delighted that a new medical school is being opened in Lincoln, which is very welcome. On community nursing, we are trying to attract more nurses and medical practitioners to areas where there is greatest need, which are community nursing, psychiatry, mental health and learning disabilities. Last year, the Secretary of State announced golden hellos. We are also looking at further, more flexible training to enable a greater number of people to enter the profession.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, with concern being voiced about current vacancy levels among mental health professionals, let alone the additional 21,000 mental health practitioners the Government have said will be needed to treat a million more people by 2021, will the Government agree to fund a collaborative mental health careers campaign aimed at secondary school, college and university students, particularly psychology graduates, to help plug this gaping hole?
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, we are looking at allied professionals and more creative ways of bringing a wide range of people into the profession. I cannot comment precisely on the question that the noble Baroness has asked. However, as she is aware, HEE has published the mental health workforce plan, which has the stretching ambition of delivering 21,000 new posts and employing 19,000 additional staff. As well as increasing recruitment and retention in mental health training, the NHS is creating new roles such as physician associates, nursing associates and allied health professional associates as well as looking at advanced clinical practitioners. On the specific question asked by the noble Baroness, I shall write to her.
Lifeboats: Ceredigion
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the impact will be on the coastguard of the RNLI’s decision to downgrade the all-weather lifeboats capacity in New Quay, Ceredigion.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the RNLI is an independent organisation that declares its lifeboats available to Her Majesty’s Coastguard. It determines how and where it deploys the resources that it has available. Based on historical incident data and the outputs of the RNLI’s risk-assessed five-year review, we do not anticipate that its decision to replace the all-weather lifeboat with an Atlantic 85 vessel at New Quay will have an impact on HM Coastguard’s capability to co-ordinate search and rescue in Cardigan Bay.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
I, too, hesitate to criticise such a respected charity, but the replacement of the all-weather lifeboat with an Atlantic 85 inshore vessel, which cannot be launched in stormy conditions exceeding force 7, leaves a gap of 63 nautical miles in all-weather search and rescue provision. This and the alleged lack of a proper, open consultation with any local stakeholders concerned with sea safety in Cardigan Bay are a matter of grave concern to the local community. Will my noble friend the Minister intervene and ask the RNLI to publish its evidence and perhaps also to review its decision?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the RNLI’s decision was underpinned by extensive research of incident reports as well as information gathered in face-to-face meetings and workshops at the lifeboat station both before and after the coast review visits, to ensure that local knowledge and concerns were considered. The decision is a significant investment by the RNLI in the area—which of course we are very grateful for—with new, faster boats at all three RNLI stations. The RNLI view is that that is the optimal combination for future life-saving in the area. It has shared a 30-page extract of the report with the lifeboat operations manager, and I understand that it is in dialogue with a campaign group to ensure it has the appropriate information.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former Lord Lieutenant of the county and my wife is from a long line of New Quay sailors. The Government have paid £3.5 million since 2014 to increase capacity and resilience in rescue, so they cannot wash their hands entirely to the RNLI. Since it is proposed that all-weather lifeboats will be as far away as Pwllheli and Barmouth, will the new inshore lifeboat at New Quay diminish capability? Will there be a gap in safety provision in Cardigan Bay in severe weather?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is right to point out the change in provision. Three 17-knot Mersey class all-weather lifeboats are being replaced with two Shannon lifeboats at Pwllheli and Barmouth and there will be a smaller but faster lifeboat at New Quay. This was based on a risk-based review that looked at the entire area and the RNLI’s decision to replace the all-weather lifeboat was, as I said, underpinned by extensive research. It is convinced that this is the optimal amount of resource for the area.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)
I declare a personal interest as someone with long-standing family connections in the area and as a supporter of this campaign. The RNLI of course does wonderful work, but I am afraid that in this instance it has been totally lacking in transparency with the people of New Quay about the reasons for its decision. Despite what the Minister said, independent research shows that in severe weather conditions—force 7 in daylight and force 6 by night—it does increase the risk. There is a 70-mile gap, as I understand it, between the nearest all-weather lifeboats and it simply takes that much longer to get there. Should not an organisation such as the RNLI that depends on trust be more open about its decisions and in this instance look again at the increased risk of this decision?
Baroness Sugg
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his question. I know of his long-standing interest in the area. The RNLI, as I said, has shared a 30-page extract of the report and is working closely with a campaign group. I understand that the campaign group is made up of passionate people who want to ensure that they have the optimal provision in the area. As I said, along with the replacement new boat, the all-weather lifeboats in the surrounding area will be replaced with much faster ones. There is also a new helicopter base in St Athan, and the new boats, the helicopter and the increase in lifeguarding on the coast will not only maintain but improve life-saving provision in the area.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
The RNLI’s decision to move the all-weather facility from New Quay has led to huge public disquiet in the area—an area where people understand the important role fisheries play in providing a livelihood for commercial fishing and angling vessels. They also understand the danger to the fishermen who brave all weathers. What assessment has the noble Baroness made of the importance of the all-weather lifeboat to the safety of fishermen in Cardigan Bay?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the RNLI carries out a coastal safety review every five years. It is a very extensive review based on extensive research; it considers all the rescue records and looks at all the reports of launches and incidents carried out by the lifeboat stations. It has concluded that services by the New Quay RNLI all-weather lifeboat could have been carried out safely and effectively by an Atlantic 85 inshore lifeboat, supported by the new, faster lifeboats at neighbouring stations if required. I understand that people who have long experience in this area locally are concerned about it. The RNLI continues to have conversations with them and will ensure that they are given the appropriate information.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister was asked just now what assessment she had made of the need in the area. She told us what assessment the RNLI had made. She referred to the campaigners as being passionate. We can also say that the RNLI is passionate, because day in and day out volunteers are out there saving people’s lives and collecting and raising the funds to do so. This is a difficult decision that has been made. What engagement do the Government have with the RNLI to ensure that the interests of the public are taken into account, so that the Government can assure themselves that the work it is doing takes public safety into account? That may allay some fears of those who are concerned about this decision, or who may be in a position to provide funding so that they do not have to make this decision.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, lifeboat provision in the UK is delivered by independent charitable organisations that declare their lifeboats available to Her Majesty’s Coastguard. As I said, we are very grateful for their work. It is the responsibility of the organisations to decide on the specific operational capacity they consider appropriate, but of course the MCA works closely with the RNLI on the coastal review. The noble Baroness was quite right to pay tribute to the scale of volunteers in this area—it is extremely impressive. The Coastguard Rescue Service is made up of approximately 3,500 volunteers; the RNLI has 5,000 volunteer lifeboat crew; and, as the noble Baroness said, there are more than 23,000 volunteer community fundraisers. They all contribute to providing the excellent service on our coasts.
Broadcasting: Public Sector Content
(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Benjamin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to introduce legislation to ensure that public sector content continues to be easily discoverable by viewers, regardless of how they are accessing broadcasting content.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question on the Order Paper, and declare an interest as per the register.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, Ofcom has consulted on proposed changes to the linear EPG code and on how the prominence regime may need to change to ensure that public service content remains accessible, regardless of how consumers access it. That consultation closed in October 2018 and we look forward to receiving its findings in due course. If Ofcom makes it clear that there is a problem which needs fixing by legislation, we will look to bring that forward.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, children are being increasingly exposed to inappropriate content on social media, and public service broadcasting plays an important role in providing parents with a safe, trusted space where children can access high-quality, entertaining educational content—especially now that the new BFI contestable funding will be available to programme makers. However, it is difficult to find these PSB channels because no two electronic programme guides are the same. They are confusing and very frustrating. Does the Minister agree that it is essential we update the EPG rules as a matter of urgency, to ensure that viewers can easily access this excellent PSB content?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree that PSB content is important—in fact, 83% of people think that children’s provision by public service broadcasters is important. Ofcom’s consultation on the rules for prominence and proposed changes to the linear EPG includes a proposal for prominence for children’s PSB channels. Ofcom already has the powers to review and revise the code, so any final decision on changes to the linear prominence regime is a matter for it.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, it is unusual for both of my questions, carefully prepared, to have been answered before I put them, but that will not stop me asking the Minister to repeat the assurance he gave that, if the Ofcom report suggests that legislation is necessary, the Government will do it.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I can do better than that. I will repeat what the Secretary of State said to the DCMS shadow Secretary of State:
“The Government has made clear that if the Ofcom report concludes that there is a problem with the current prominence regime that needs fixing with the legislation, then we will look to bring that forward”.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, does public sector content include “Songs of Praise”, which the BBC insists on moving about to different times on Sunday, presumably with the ambition that it should eventually lose its audience altogether?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
As my noble friend knows well, editorial decisions are for the BBC, not the Government.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
My Lords, the Sky Q box prioritises access to its services over PSB catch-up services. Many television manufacturers have partnered with Netflix to prioritise its services on their channel controllers. Is the Minister not concerned that the PSB digital channels, paid for with public money, are losing out in the battle for channel prominence to the video-on-demand giants?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I recognise that most of what we have talked about today is for linear services. Of course, a change is taking place: people now have subscriptions for watching on-demand programmes on their internet browsers. This creates a number of challenges and we have agreed that, if Ofcom makes suggestions that take that into account, we will bring legislation forward when the time arises.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)
My Lords, I fear I will ask the Minister to repeat, yet again, what he has said. Does he not agree that prominence is not a perk for PSBs but a fair and essential exchange? I do not know how many of you listened this morning to Radio 4’s “Start the Week”—a really quite frightening public service broadcast programme about the tech titans’ struggle for our individual attention. Will the Government commit to supporting the urgently needed updating of prominence rules through legislation?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I think I have done that—twice. We are aware that the technology is changing, and noble Lords might be interested to hear an example. More UK households now own a voice-activated smart speaker than own Britain’s third most popular pet: a rabbit.
UK Shared Prosperity Fund
(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress it has made on the design and implementation of the proposed UK Shared Prosperity Fund in the light of reports that the Prime Minister is considering providing additional funds to former steel and mining communities and industrial towns.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, we intend to launch the single prosperity fund consultation shortly, as confirmed by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in the other place last month.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, first, is the money that the Prime Minister has been scattering around actually new money, or is it money that would otherwise come out of this shared prosperity fund? Secondly, we might need this fund in seven weeks’ time. How come, therefore, we have yet to have a consultation on it? We do not know whether it will be allocated on the basis of need or prosperity. Can the Minister assure us that, if it is needed in seven weeks’ time, it will be up and ready for the communities it is to serve?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, first, the noble Baroness will be aware that current EU programmes will run their course—in some cases, beyond 2020—so I do not quite recognise the urgency of which she speaks. At the same time as the Prime Minister announced that the consultation would be short, she talked about the importance of tackling inequalities between communities—something I am sure the noble Baroness welcomes, and it may well be something that the right honourable Member the leader of the Opposition chose to discuss with the Prime Minister. I am sure that she would hope so because, clearly, this is very important. We have been doing a lot of work with engagement events around the country. The consultation will start shortly and the decisions will be made in the spending review.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, in a letter in today’s Times, my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford makes it clear that the offer of cash subsidies to an MP for the benefit of constituents provided that the MP votes for the Government’s withdrawal agreement is in breach of Section 1 of the Bribery Act. Does the Minister agree that having ad hoc, specific discussions of this nature is not just legally unwise but a disreputable act of a desperate Prime Minister?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I bow to nobody in my discipleship of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on legal issues, and I am sure that what he says is correct, but noble Lords should not believe everything that they see in the newspapers. What is important in regard to any fund—such as the shared prosperity fund, on which we will consult shortly—is that it tackles inequalities across communities. I am sure that the noble Lord would agree with that, and I would think that he would want to engage in the consultation on that basis.
Lord Tomlinson (Lab)
My Lords, in his usual generous way, when the Minister answered the question from my noble friend Lady Hayter, he answered more than she had asked. However, he did not answer the crucial part of her question, which was whether it was new money.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I answered that, to the extent that I said that any spending decisions would await the spending review. However, the noble Lord will be aware of the amount that is currently spent on EU programmes—more than £1 billion per year—which I am sure will inform that review. Any decisions will await the spending review, but I am sure that that is a good guideline figure.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, do the Government agree that many of these steel and mining areas have been left to rot for many years, and it is about time that the Government provided funds to address some of the poverty in those communities?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, it was on that basis that I said that the Prime Minister was very keen to say that this was about tackling inequalities between communities, which I would think noble Lords would welcome very widely—I hope that the Labour Party does—and we will be keen to stress that in the consultation and the future spending review.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, twice now the Minister has referred to inequalities being a key factor in the shared prosperity fund. How does that sit with the latest consultation on the fairer funding formula, where deprivation and need have been excluded? Will this not mean robbing Peter to pay Paul when it comes to inequality and need?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I will make two points. First, I referred to inequalities in communities because that was in the Written Statement on the UK single prosperity fund made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government in July; it was restated by the Prime Minister, and in looking at that consultation we have talked about the importance of people, infrastructure, business, environment, ideas and place. The noble Lord referred to the fairer funding formula but did not do so totally fairly, if I may say so. He will be aware that deprivation is recognised as a key factor in many areas, such as health.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, to come back to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, can we have the position made absolutely clear, that the money that was being talked about over the weekend is not in any way conditional upon support for the Government in the House of Commons? Can that be made absolutely clear at this Dispatch Box?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I will make two points. The first is a relatively minor one, but lest the Order Paper appear strange, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, did not table the Question but was cited in another question. In relation to the content of the letter that was read out, I am sure that the noble Lord is right legally. I say simply that the context of this consultation, when it happens shortly, is about ensuring that we address inequalities between communities. That is the essence of what we are looking at.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if any meetings are held with individual MPs, the minutes of those discussions will be published immediately after they have taken place?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, that is well beyond my brief. I am not quite sure whose discussions the noble Lord is referring to. As he will be aware, many confidential discussions are held, and both MPs and Ministers respect their confidentiality. It is unthinkable that a Government Minister is breaching the law in the way that has been suggested—directly and, in some cases, indirectly—in the Chamber today. Once again—your Lordships should not need encouragement in this—noble Lords should not believe everything they read in the newspapers.
Baroness Quin (Lab)
My Lords, in view of the Minister’s concern for former steel- and coal-mining areas, I ask that it be extended to areas devastated by the demise of the shipbuilding industry. On the allegations of bribery, does that not apply to the agreement between the Government and the DUP?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Baroness is fair. I shall address the first part of her question, which is certainly fair; the second, I think, was a throwaway comment. I am sure she is more concerned about the shipbuilding industry than scoring political points. On shipbuilding, I address her to the fact that much of the EU funding that will no longer be in place has been to assist such areas—the north-east, which I know she is familiar with and concerned about, is one of those areas. As I said, it is about addressing inequalities in communities, so I am sure those communities would be part of that; for example, there has been an engagement exercise in Gateshead, where I am sure this policy issue would be considered in framing a consultation. There have been engagement events around the whole country—the UK, not just England.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, will this policy affect Airbus or Vauxhall in north-east Wales? It will cause tremendous devastation of the economy in those areas. Does he really think that coming out of Europe will be to our benefit and ease the austerity in Wales and other places?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I bow to no one in my respect for Airbus, but I would not be as keen as the noble Lord is to write it off. He will be aware that it is in an area not currently in receipt of cohesion funding, and I shall not be making decisions here—I do not have the writ to do so anyway—about who gets money after the consultation and the subsequent spending review. Those are the parameters: the consultation will happen shortly, the spending review later, and that is when decisions will be made which will shape what happens post Brexit.
The Lord Bishop of Durham
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that in the consultation, local community organisations will be assured that they can access the new fund so that local issues really do rise to the surface in use of the funding?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for raising the matter. I can confirm that this will be a wide consultation. I very much hope that the sorts of organisations he referred to will participate, and obviously we will react to what we find in the consultation.
Arrangement of Business
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, I should like to make a short business statement about our sittings in February. Noble Lords on all sides of the House will have noticed that, last Thursday, the Leader of the House of Commons informed that House that it was no longer the intention for it to have a February recess in the light of the significant decisions taken by that House last Tuesday.
In our House, we have discussed our sitting patterns on the Floor of the House on several occasions in recent months. Noble Lords will be aware that I have always said that I thought it would be necessary for us to sit throughout February. Had the House of Commons decided to proceed with its anticipated February half-term, I would have suggested that we have a long weekend to allow all Members and staff some additional time away.
However, given that the Commons will now sit throughout February, I believe it would be wrong for us to do otherwise. I assure the House that we will have plenty to do in the weeks ahead. Whatever noble Lords’ views on Brexit, I think everyone agrees that we must allow the maximum time for scrutiny, and that is what I propose we do.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Chief Whip for making the announcement. When he last spoke about this and we pressed him on dates, he said that he was speaking in code and that if we looked at Hansard we might get a better idea. Many of us did, and still had no idea. Perhaps now we understand why. We certainly understand the volume of work that has to be undertaken. If the Government were to rule out no deal as an option—or, as the Prime Minister seems to think, a sword of Damocles if her deal is not accepted—the workload may be slightly less. Of course, we stand ready to play our part.
The Chief Whip will be aware that the business this week in this House is rather light. The House of Commons has risen early on several occasions recently, and there are two Bills currently stalled in the Commons that this House has been waiting for: the Agriculture Bill completed Committee on 20 November, but there is still no date in the other place for either Report or Third Reading; the Fisheries Bill finished Committee on 17 December, and there is no date scheduled for the Commons Report or Third Reading. Both need to be through Parliament by 29 March. The Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill has its Second Reading tomorrow, but there have been two months between Committee and Report in the Commons. It seems that while we will sit longer to undertake this business, the Commons and the Government have been rather tardy in bringing forward the needed legislation. I assure the Chief Whip that we stand ready to play our part, but we expect the Government to do so as well.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, I wonder if the Chief Whip might explain something to us. Under “Business of the House”, today’s Order Paper says:
“The Lord Privy Seal … to move that Standing Order 40(4) (so far as it relates to Thursdays) and (5) be suspended until Monday 3 June so far as is necessary to enable notices and orders relating to Public Bills, Measures, Affirmative Instruments and reports from Select Committees”.
What is the relevance of Monday 3 June?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It has none at all to the matter we are discussing. My noble friend the Lord Privy Seal will move a business Motion to follow what I have just said.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, could the Chief Whip explain just how much all these extra days we will sit will cost the taxpayer? It seems to be a concern.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Noble Lords are not obliged to claim their expenses but, should they wish to do so, they can. I think this House offers the taxpayer very good value for money, and I am not at all ashamed of its deliberations and their necessity. We should be proud of this House. I am very grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for registering her support for the programme we will have to consider over the next couple of months. We know that we will be busy and I am grateful for the support of noble Lords in going through that process together.
Business of the House
(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday 7 February to allow the Finance (No. 3) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.
Business of the House
(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That Standing Order 40(4) (so far as it relates to Thursdays) and (5) be suspended until Monday 3 June so far as is necessary to enable notices and orders relating to Public Bills, Measures, Affirmative Instruments and reports from Select Committees of the House to have precedence over other notices and orders on Thursdays.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, in agreeing the Procedure Committee’s first report of this Session on 4 December 2017, the House decided that Thursdays after the end of January this year should be used for legislation rather than general debates. As with the equivalent Motion last year, this Motion simply allows legislation to take precedence over other types of business that would otherwise have priority on a Thursday. I beg to move.
Trade Bill
Monday 4th February 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Trade Bill 2017-19 View all Trade Bill 2017-19 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 127-IV Fourth marshalled list for Committee (PDF) - (31 Jan 2019)
“Future partnership with the European Union: services
It shall be the objective of an appropriate authority to take all necessary steps to implement a future trade agreement with the European Union that—(a) ensures no additional barriers to trade in services between the European Union and the United Kingdom are erected after exit day;(b) protects—(i) the right of UK nationals and businesses to provide or receive services in the European Union, and(ii) reciprocal rights for EU nationals and businesses to provide or receive services in the United Kingdom;(c) protects—(i) the right of UK businesses to establish a company in an EU member state, and(ii) reciprocal rights for EU businesses to establish a company in the United Kingdom.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 45 is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for whose support I am very grateful. We are reaching the last quarter of our time on this Bill in Committee, and we have never touched, in any serious way, the question of services, which make up 80% of our GDP; they are an important part of our economy now and will be in the future. That curious absence of services has prompted this amendment; it is a probing amendment in the sense that I do not think there is any issue between the Government and us on this. We both recognise the importance of it and want to make sure that it is successful, but it is an opportunity for the Government to set out clearly what they intend to do in this area and to bring forward any thoughts they have about how the importance of services might continue, as the negotiations, which are currently with the EU and will return to the other place shortly, progress.
We hear a lot, importantly, about manufacturing and the physical goods that this country makes and imports. We do not hear nearly as much about services, and that is curious. It is important to be clear why that is. Direct trading of services across borders by purchasing or selling architecture, legal opinion or forms of insurance is a well-known measure of activity. This area has grown considerably and the UK economy is strong and strengthened by that. Business services, financial services and other aspects such as travel, including the tuition fees of foreign students who study in the UK, transportation and telecommunication information services make up the huge proportion of our activity in this area. Most trading of this type is with the EU. It is over 50% if Switzerland is included in the figures, but we also have considerable trade outside the EU and we should not forget that.
It is also important to recognise that, in some senses, exactly how this takes effect is hidden from plain sight. I should explain: we know a lot about the physical movement of things like car parts, because we are told, time and again, that the issue in modern-day trade is not so much the individual purpose of creating a particular object, machine or type of equipment; it is the assembly of the various parts. In the case of a car, bumpers, injectors and all sorts of things that go into the modern car cross the channel several times before being assembled, either here or elsewhere, in the final product, which is then sold. We are concerned about that and much of the Bill has this as part of its process, but the point is that this is not just about physical material. There is also a question about knowledge, intermediate input, services, financing and having the right people in the right place, which is necessary for this complicated pas de deux to work.
The single market, which underpins all this in the EU, plays a pivotal role in facilitating this process of increasing specialisation, because it includes as its basic point—this is derived from consideration within the GATS treaty under the WTO—the four freedoms for moving goods, services, capital and people. Hence, a focus on manufacturing the individual item sees only part of the story.
Why do services not feature more strongly in our discussion and debate? There are three reasons. First, services agreements are a relatively new form of trade negotiation. There are not that many around. They are difficult, because you have to negotiate and consider individual aspects, often regulatory and non-tariff barriers, to the way the trade happens. They cannot always be done by fiat from government; they have to involve large numbers of other companies and organisations. They are bureaucratic; they are not necessarily all organised from a particular aspect in government, such as BEIS or the Department for International Trade, because regulators and government departments will be involved in legal services and other areas. Finally, because different regulations belong to different bodies, it is more difficult to trade one sector, as it were, against another. There is not really an easy route through this, and that may explain why it is often left to the last.
I welcome the Government’s response on that, but it is a cynical response. We have done so well in services trade in recent years and our performance is one of the strongest in the world. We have more to lose in trade negotiations that focus on individual hardware and machinery parts if they do not also make sure that those trading in legal and other services are considered as well. We are in a quandary. We can argue the easy option of a goods-only agreement, because the rules for that are relatively straightforward: the tariffs are already very low anyway and we are not talking about substantial changes to the way in which we would do it. But if you include services then we are talking about a whole range of new activities, new players and the offering of new types of discretion. I will wait to hear the Government’s response, but it could be argued that we in Britain are not yet ready to engage with that successfully.
In that context, the opportunity is there for the Government to respond positively on how we are going to take forward this issue and how important it is to make sure that we get it right, and to make sure that we in this country do not suffer simply because the dog that did not bark—services—is still not barking. I beg to move.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for moving the amendment, which I happily signed. It will be no surprise that we on these Benches favour, still, the United Kingdom continuing as part of the single market of the European Union. However, in many respects this is a mitigating amendment on the basis that, if we are to leave the European Union, the most significant non-financial services sector for the British economy is, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the services sector. It is right, therefore, that we give proper focus to it in this Bill.
Up until this point, we have discussed the emerging elements of the continuity agreements. We have seen so far only one published, that of Switzerland, and are awaiting others. In the continuity agreement, Switzerland has components on services, and guarantees free movement of people for those providing services. That is beyond the elements in the immigration White Paper and in the withdrawal agreement from the European Union, and it is beyond what the Government have said. There are, however, some indications that the Government recognise that services are critical to the British economy. But it goes beyond that, as do our discussions with Switzerland, which are on the gold market and property.
This affects all parts of the United Kingdom. The UK is more dependent on services, especially non-financial, than perhaps any other country in the world. We export more in absolute terms than any country other than the United States. We have been able to get to that position because we have been doing so within an integrated market of the European Union. In many respects, we in the United Kingdom have been the driving force of the emerging integrated markets in the European Union. It is an irony that, as the architects of this approach to developing the services markets across the European Union to benefit our country, we are going to leave it.
If we are to have a future relationship, it is critical that we focus not only on tariffs and non-tariff barriers but on what is necessary to ensure that we can continue to benefit, at least to some degree, from a services relationship with the European Union. This applies particularly in digital services, as well as in the wider elements of research and development.
Many months ago, your Lordships’ committee reported on this, and in December 2017, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, this House had an opportunity to debate the significance of the non-financial services sector to the British economy. Now, we have the Government’s clear position: we will be leaving it. We are choosing to leave an integrated market, which we have led, so how do we focus on some of the component aspects?
In the withdrawal agreement, we have seen some elements of mutual recognition of qualifications and some elements of professional standards being aligned so that those working in the services sector can be part of a wider operation on the continent and with the European Union. However, this is only a very small aspect of the overall need to have a much closer alignment. It requires government honesty: we may well be leaving the single market, but it needs to be clear what very close alignment would look like.
This applies to the discussions taking place this week and next week on the alternative to a backstop. The arrangements for the Northern Ireland backstop were as much to do with the continuity of the services sector for those providing professional and trade services from north to south and south to north as they were with the checking of the origin of goods at a border for tariff purposes. The all-Ireland economy is, by and large, an all-Ireland economy because of services. We are treaty-bound to protect that, so it is very important to have more clarity from the Government on what they expect to see as alternative arrangements to the Northern Ireland protocol if we are to protect the core elements of an all-Ireland services economy.
We know that we cannot rely on a much wider alternative, which is the WTO. In its last set of discussions, it could not even agree on a communiqué about taking forward future services agreements on a WTO basis. We know that the USA and China are in dispute not only on trade in goods, but also on services, and we know, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the complexity of even the European Union introducing services components to third-party trade agreements. If we know that it has been difficult, with the UK as the driving force, to secure agreements with other third countries, why do the Government think that it will be easy for the European Union to do it with us?
This amendment, therefore, is very important. I hope that it will allow the Government to be much clearer, because the services sector of the United Kingdom has, in many respects, been the driving force of growth in the UK, one that we cannot afford to put at risk.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, both the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, have stressed how important the services sector is to the economy of this country and to the exports that we sell. However, anybody involved in the financial services industry would say that they have not been much helped by the single-market provisions of the EU, which have put up many non-tariff barriers, to which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred. It is probably quite ambitious, if we hope to have a free trade deal with the EU, to think that we are actually going to lower the non-tariff barriers that have been erected during our membership of EU, when the single market was supposed to provide a market for services as well as goods but effectively has not actually done so. I will be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say about this very important sector of the economy. We have not been much blessed by reciprocal agreements with the EU over financial services and very many other services in the past because of the non-tariff barriers that have been erected against them.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, I strongly support this amendment, which is of profound importance. I apologise for an intervention that I made in Committee last week, where I was ticked off by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for intervening on an amendment when I had not been present for the start of the debate. I apologise again; I should know the rules better.
I was privileged to serve on the EU Internal Market Sub-Committee of your Lordships’ House. We conducted an inquiry into non-financial services, and I was very struck, not having known much about this before, by the importance of non-financial services. The sector makes up something like two-thirds of the total of the services trade. This is important, particularly for people who think that services just mean finance and the City. It is far broader than that and a lot of members of my own party might better understand that point.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, in pursuing the aspect of services, and I have a specific question for my noble friend Lord Bates, who I think will be summing up. This debate is not dissimilar to the one that we had on the free movement of professions, and I am mindful of the fact that my noble friend Lady Fairhead has said on a number of occasions that the Bill before the Committee today is all about continuity. I also have regard to what my noble friend Lord Hamilton said—that there has been precious little reciprocity in terms of setting up and establishing services elsewhere in the European Union to date. So that does not fill me with confidence about what the legal position will be going forward.
There are some very helpful pages on the European Commission website about what the position will be as regards professions after 29 March and in the longer term, but there is precious little about establishing companies. This is becoming a matter of increasing urgency because we can see, in particular if we look at financial services, that the issue is not just free movement of people but free movement of services and capital. We have recently seen an increasing exodus of capital and people moving from the City of London to bases in Dublin, Frankfurt and Holland—and even Paris and Copenhagen are pressing for people to go and set up businesses there.
I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister how we are pursuing this on a reciprocal basis. We saw with professions, in the case of lawyers, that we have adopted the statutory instrument and the necessary regulation. What is the legal position of a UK company that wishes to establish itself and offer its services, first in the event of no deal after 29 March, secondly in the event of a deal during the transition phase, and thirdly at the conclusion of the transition period, whether it is as planned or extended? It strikes me that many of us are focusing on businesses already established in the UK and providing services. My concern is how much the ability of those looking to set up and establish themselves will depend on the right of residence, either now or at some future date in what will be a third country after 29 March.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
My Lords, I think that this is a very good amendment and I will come to the substance of it in a second. I just want to make two points by way of introduction. First, here we are at the beginning of February—a new week and a new month—and we are still in an absolutely ludicrous position, presenting an almost unbelievable picture to the world of a country with a Government doing their best to damage their own economy. Every day we have new evidence of this. Today we had the worrying story from Nissan. Many of us who have focused on the mess the Government are in could speak on the subject for hours.
There is another example from the last few days. We say that when we leave the European Union we want to sign trade agreements with those countries which currently have trade agreements with the EU. One of those countries is Japan. Japan has just signed a trade agreement with the EU. At the very best, I suppose, if the Japanese were to give us exactly the same terms—which is unlikely because our bargaining power vis-à-vis Japan is nothing like the power that the EU has—it would take a minimum of five years, and probably nearer 10, to conclude this deal. So the Government are saying that we are walking away from a trade agreement in order to spend a vast amount of time and money and suffer a lot of uncertainty before perhaps, in many years’ time, finally reaching another trade agreement that may not be as good as the one we now have. I put it to the Government: what kind of reason or logic is that? What a way to run a state. What a way to look after not only this generation but future generations of British people and make sure that they have a viable economy on which they can actually base a reasonable standard of living and a reasonable level of public services.
The Government are already under attack in this place, quite rightly, for their delivery of public services. We had a very interesting series of Questions earlier about the health service. The Government are undermining the future ability of the British economy to deliver the wealth we need to maintain our public services at acceptable international levels. This is quite apart from the impact of their policies on individual wealth and prospects for individuals who want to travel or study abroad or benefit from all the other freedoms we will be giving up. It is a very serious matter. The muddle the Government are in about the damage that is being done makes the whole picture even more disgraceful—that is the only word I can use.
I think my noble friend’s amendment is excellent. I agree with everything he said when he introduced it—and that noble Lords on both sides of the House said—about the importance of services. We all know that they are 80% of the British economy. But I have one question. Why has he not put goods in there as well? It seems to me that exactly the same principles apply to goods. I just looked at the amendment, and if you were to add the words “goods” wherever “services” are mentioned, you would not produce any particular anomalies or logical or linguistic problems. I do not know why goods have been left out of this particular picture. As I said, exactly the same principles apply. We want there to be no new barriers—that sums up everything. “Barriers” includes tariffs, quotas and non-tariff barriers, so the ground would be covered quite well by doing that.
My noble friend rather implied that he was putting forward this amendment in order to have a debate on an important subject—which is a very worthy thing to do in this place. Perhaps I have that wrong, but it sounded as though that was what he had in mind, and we are of course having that debate at the moment. However, it seems to me that it would be even better if we got this proposed new clause on to the statute book. We would be doing a very good day’s work for the country if we could manage to do that. Therefore, I ask my noble friend why he came to his decision. I am sure that there must be a very good reason, which perhaps I am being foolish in not anticipating, but I do not understand why we do not include goods.
These debates are becoming extremely unreal. One likes to think that one’s service in Parliament, whether in the Commons or in the Lords, is based on being clear in one’s mind and discussing and working out with colleagues what is the best policy for this country. But we have a Government who are not pursuing the objective of the best policy for this country. We have a Government who are destroying British industry and commerce where they can—so it is a very unreal situation. I do not know how much longer this country can go on in the hands of people who take that attitude when they have in their charge the very considerable, and in my view very important, responsibility of governing the United Kingdom to the benefit of our citizens both of today and of tomorrow.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, in following the noble Lord’s remarks, perhaps I may say that the unreality of debates in Committee on this Bill will be exacerbated if we not only have amendments that, quite properly, raise relevant issues that are not presently included in the Bill but we then use them as the basis for a wide-ranging debate on every occasion. Let us not do that. On occasion, we in this House look broadly at what the resolution to our current impasse might be, but we also have a responsibility to use our time well on this Bill to try to ensure that it is effective legislation, because we might need it.
In that context, there is a very simple reason why trade in services is not in the Bill: the General Agreement on Trade in Services is multilateral, not plurilateral, so there is no need to legislate for this as it is something we are a party to only by virtue of our membership of the European Union. That is why the government procurement agreement has got into the legislation. If that were true for the General Agreement on Trade in Services, that would have to be included as well, but it is not; every member of the WTO is a member of the GATS.
However, the question is: do we want to legislate to mandate the Government in the negotiation on a future free trade agreement to seek to provide for a continuing and complete reproduction of our current relationship with the European Union, or at least to the extent that the amendment asks for that? As far as I can see, it asks for it up to mode 3—it does not include mode 4 arrangements, which allow for natural persons to be present in other member states—thus excluding the free movement of individuals for the purpose of the delivery of services in other member states. Therefore, it is not a continuity amendment, or at least it cannot be presented as such.
From the point of view of Ministers, broadly speaking at the moment it is important for us to understand to what extent free trade agreements that might be reproduced by way of continuity agreements in the event of a no-deal exit might lead to the perverse situation whereby we have greater service sector access to third countries than we do to the European Union, which would mean considerable dislocation for service industries in this country.
Finally, much as I wish that we were staying in the European Union and continue to argue that we should be in a customs union with a degree of regulatory alignment—we will come on to that briefly later—I certainly would not go as far as the amendment implies, which is that effectively we should be rule-takers on services with the European Union. That could be a very unhappy place for us to be, given that services make up 80% of our economy, as has been said. The fact that we are in a customs union for goods will therefore not preclude us from engaging extensively in discussions on trade in services with third countries, which is where much of the action may well be in future trade negotiations.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, 80% of the UK economy—in fact, I think the figure is 85%—comprises services. I support the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, in bringing forward this probing amendment although, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Lansley, I am not convinced that we should change the Bill and make ourselves rule-takers on services. If noble Lords will allow, I would like to keep the issue of the free movement of people separate. The question is: do we lose as much from losing the single market on services? It is not very well developed at all. I know this because I tried to cut down barriers on services within the EU when I led the presidency work in BEIS in 2016.
Last week the Chancellor spoke at the UK Finance dinner, which I attended. I was sorry as a result of that—the timing was unhelpful—to miss the last group of amendments, of which mine formed part. The Chancellor talked about liberalising trade in services—a sort of WTO services round—going forward. Of course, this would also extend to the European Union if it were to happen.
I have two questions about services for my noble friend the Minister, the answers to which will help me when we consider the Bill on Report. First, can he elaborate on the Chancellor’s idea, or emerging Treasury ideas, of doing something on services beyond the European Union, which would help us in the European Union as well? Secondly, can he confirm that the Government’s proposed deal—the withdrawal agreement or the political declaration—would not get in the way of bilateral deals with third countries on services, given that the multilateralism that I love is very hard going? In other words, would we be able to conclude a deal with the US—again, very tough—or, perhaps more realistically, with the emerging and already emerged countries of Asia, where we are now selling a lot of services and where it seems that aligning some of the rules on services could be extremely valuable?
The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of all those who have spoken, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, for bringing forward Amendment 45, the purpose of which is to provide an opportunity for the Government to put some remarks on the record about our approach to services which, as we all agree, is of crucial importance. So, before coming to some of the specific questions that have been raised during this short debate, I will take advantage of that opportunity to set out the Government’s position as it now stands.
As my noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the UK’s services economy is a global success story. Our internationally competitive industries play host to world-leading firms as well as thriving small and medium-sized enterprises, and we have undertaken significant engagement with the sector on issues related to EU exit.
I would like to reassure the House that the Government are seeking arrangements for services and investment that cover all modes of service supply—my noble friend Lord Lansley correctly referred to the variations; that provide substantial sectoral coverage, including measures on professional business services, which my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; that go well beyond both sides’ WTO commitments as set out in the General Agreement on Trade in Services, which my noble friend Lord Lansley also mentioned; and that build on the provisions in existing EU agreements.
Moreover, through the political declaration we have secured a commitment from the EU 27 that our future trading relationship will be ambitious, comprehensive and balanced, and will include market access commitments to ensure that service suppliers and investors do not face quantitative restrictions such as monopolies, economic needs tests or joint venture requirements, which my noble friend Lord Hamilton expressed concern about; national treatment commitments, to ensure that UK service suppliers and investors are not discriminated against by the EU 27 and vice versa, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; new arrangements on financial services, grounded in economic partnership, providing greater co-operation and consultation than is possible under existing third country frameworks; appropriate measures on the recognition of qualifications, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, to support UK professionals practising in the EU 27 and vice versa; arrangements that allow for temporary entry and stay in each other’s territories for business purposes, including visa-free travel for short-term visits, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, rightly identified from his extensive work examining the internal market as a member of the Select Committee; and mechanisms to promote voluntary regulatory co-operation to guard against the introduction of unnecessary barriers to services, trade and investment, to which my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe referred. I pay tribute to the work that she did at BEIS in seeking to remove those barriers.
We have also been clear that after we leave the EU, the UK will have an independent trade policy covering all aspects of goods and services. To deliver that objective, it will be important to retain regulatory freedom where it matters most for the UK’s services-based economy.
I turn to some of the points that have been raised.
Lord Davies of Stamford
Before the Minister moves on to detailed points, perhaps this might be a good moment for him to tell the Committee, out of all the countries with which we would like to have our own free trade agreements after we leave the EU—if we leave it—how many have indicated that they wish in principle to negotiate and sign such an agreement with this country; how many have said that they would do so on terms identical to their existing free trade agreement with the EU; and how many have indicated that they would not want to pursue such a negotiation at all?
Lord Bates
The noble Lord will remember from day three of Committee last week that one of the questions asked was whether we could provide the Committee with some running status on where we are with all those free trade agreements. That is a perfectly reasonable approach and it is something that my noble friend Lady Fairhead agreed to take back to look at and come back on ahead of Report. Rather than using this opportunity to rehearse that, I will say that it is something that we are looking at. Specifically on the EU and Japan, I was going to come to that topic and say that there is a working group with Japan to seek to replicate its effect as part of the continuity arrangements.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, on the point about freedom of movement, I have two specific questions for the Minister. I accept what he has said, but I would like to quote a personal example and declare an interest. For a period, my wife was chief executive of the English National Ballet. It was a requirement for the success of the English National Ballet that ballet dancers from all over the world were able to join, but the ENB had great difficulty with ballet dancers from outside the EU because they do not earn anything like the money that is put down in the Immigration Rules to justify easy entry. Are the Government prepared to be flexible on the earnings requirement to enable cultural organisations, which are very important to the British economy, to easily access talent from the EU, where people’s salaries will not initially be that high?
Secondly, if you are a small business in services and trying to expand by getting jobs, projects and contracts on the continent, one of the obvious business strategies you would pursue is recruiting young people from the countries in which you hope to do business. You take them into your consultancy, or whatever, and that gives you language and personal links into the markets you are trying to target. Again, there is no guarantee that, under the immigration policy outlined by the Home Secretary, young people coming from European countries would be able to get jobs in that kind of situation. We asked for a clear statement of the Government’s trade policy. The Government have to be clear on these issues before we can proceed on the Bill.
Lord Bates
I am happy to do that, and perhaps get some notes—I know we have a group coming up on the mobility framework, to which those points will perhaps be pertinent. I will, if I can, address them there. I also draw the noble Lord’s attention to section 9 of the political declaration, paragraphs 50 to 59 inclusive, which sets out the Government’s position on that.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friend Lord Hamilton pointed to or asked a very important question on bilateral services-only trade agreements. There is no precedent for a bilateral services-only trade agreement. Where service agreements exist, they are notified to the WTO alongside a wider agreement that also covers goods. We are leaving the customs union so that we can set our own tariffs and have an independent trade policy tailored to the strengths and requirements of our economy, which therefore includes—by implication and explicitly—the importance of services to our economy. The political declaration sets out a plan for a UK-EU free trade area for goods, including no tariffs, with ambitious customs agreements. This will be the first such agreement between an advanced economy and the EU.
The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, referred to the situation in relation to Northern Ireland. Without wanting to revisit that whole area in this group, the situation is that in Northern Ireland, under the common travel area, the rights to work, study and access social security and public services will be preserved on a reciprocal basis for UK and Irish nationals in the other state.
I turn to the questions raised by my noble friend Lady McIntosh and, in particular, the two questions raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. My noble friend referred to the Chancellor’s speech on liberalising services and looking for a more ambitious way forward. I am sure that is at the core of government policy, otherwise the Chancellor would not have said it. I do not have the text in front of me, so I cannot comment on its full meaning, but I will write to my noble friend on that point. My noble friend Lady McIntosh also asked a three-pronged question. For a company setting up in the UK, what would its situation be in the event of no deal on day one; in the event of the implementation period; and at the conclusion of a future economic framework? Some of those outcomes will depend on the extent of the negotiation, which we have set out in the heads of agreement in the political declaration. Between Committee and Report, I will write on my noble friend’s specific point relating to that. Again, I thank the noble Lord for giving us an opportunity to raise this very important issue.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Can my noble friend clarify the point about services and goods? I asked whether we would be able to continue to do deals on services if we had a tight agreement—a customs union or whatever —with the EU. He was saying that goods and services tend to be linked in trade agreements and are never separate. Would that mean that we could not have services agreements, assuming we got something quite tight on goods? That would obviously be a problem. I know that they are linked—often, the service for your car and the computer in it are as important as the car itself—but I had seen them as distinct in the WTO. If my noble friend could write to me on that, I would be very interested.
Lord Bates
I will be glad to do so. In a lot of such agreements, especially for the major manufacturers, the bulk of the value of the trade or the deal is the service package and the support provided thereafter. I will be very happy to write to my noble friend ahead of Report.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
In the early part of his speech, the Minister read out an impressive list of points that had been achieved or secured before he moved on to his brilliant ex tempore dealing with the questions raised in debate. I confess that I did not recognise those points. I cannot remember seeing them in the withdrawal agreement. Was he perhaps referring to the relevant part of the political declaration, in which case surely those points have not been secured or achieved and what has been agreed is that all these things may be discussed over the next three, four or five years as the long-term relationship is considered?
Lord Bates
Yes, except that the political declaration was of course part of the withdrawal agreement negotiated with the EU 27, so one hopes that it will form the basis of our future economic partnership.
Lord Purvis of Tweed
The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I have referred to the WTO. My understanding is that there have been objections to the UK’s submission of services schedules to the WTO and therefore they are unlikely to be certified if we leave at the end of March. We can still trade on them, but they are likely to be uncertified. Can the Minister give a little context about what concessions we might make or what discussions we would have with those countries that have lodged their objections? Clearly, they feel that we will not provide the same kind of market access to UK services as under the existing agreements. We could be starting from a situation that is much worse than simply carrying on with where we are at the moment at the WTO. If the Minister cannot respond at the moment, perhaps he could write.
Lord Bates
I am very happy to give further detail on that in the general update between Committee and Report, but, as the noble Lord knows, the schedules were tabled in December followed by a 90-day consultation period. There can be a variety of perspectives on them before they are finally adopted. I will get an update as to where we are on that before Report.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
To clarify, my concern is about British companies establishing their services in what will be a third country, another EU country. I would be happy for my noble friend to write to me.
Lord Bates
I am grateful for that clarification. I shall make sure that that is what is addressed.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, it sounds as if we are starting off a new train of activity or various letters. I suspect that it might also be helpful if we had a short meeting on some of the issues just to draw them together. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I was entranced by the detailed nature of the early part of the Minister’s response and I got a bit lost—I think it was on the fourth point the second time round. We will need to read him and understand not only what he was saying but where these points are to be found in more detail. The chance to be able to do that in the context of the very rich debate we have had would be helpful.
That is not to say that I think there is that much between us: with friends like the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, how can I complain? We are on the same side here, most unusually and extraordinarily, agreeing on points of some substance. There is some progress, it has not always been easy going and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was right to point out that this is partly because we are centring on an agreement which is brokered by the WTO through the GATS system. He is correct—his background in the chambers of commerce means that he reads these documents carefully and understands their provenance—that the wording of the amendment is indeed taken from the four pillars, but I was unable to get the fourth pillar in; the clerks would not accept that. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, managed to get it into the next amendment but one, so we will have that debate shortly. That complication sets us off in slightly the wrong direction: we are not trying to change that structure in essence, because that is the overarching world system and we have to be careful we do not try to take on too many battles at the same time.
The political declaration is not the same as the agreement and of course all that gets wrapped up into some form of yet-to-be-understood free trade agreement which may or may not include both customs elements and services agreements. I think the noble Baroness is right to pick up the question of how all that melds together: will we be able to trade off some aspects of our services in order to achieve a better tariff arrangement, or is it better to keep them separate and deal with the different arrangements? I do not think we have a clear answer to that, but I do not think we are very far apart on it. We want this to be the best for Britain. We have done pretty well, against all the odds. Why change it if it is not certain that the changes are going to be beneficial to us?
Having said that, the question from my noble friend Lord Davies is right: what is the point of this amendment if it does not improve where we are? That is where the test has to be. We must look carefully at the responses and make sure we have the right view. There may be some argument for having something, either in this Bill or in the non-continuity Bill yet to come, if that is the Government’s intention. However, at this stage we are unable to say that, so with that in mind, but with thanks to all who have contributed to a very rich debate, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lansley
“Free Zones
(1) Within three months of the passing of this Act the Treasury must launch a consultation on proposals for the establishment in the United Kingdom of Free Zones, as defined by the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979.(2) The Treasury must lay a report of the consultation under subsection (1) before both Houses of Parliament within six months of its launch.(3) The report under subsection (2) must include—(a) proposals for the Free Zones to be established, and(b) an account of the extent to which each proposed Free Zone would allow UK manufacturers to secure an integrated supply and value-added production.(4) Within six months of the report under subsection (2) being laid, a Minister of the Crown must by regulations made by statutory instrument make provision for the establishment of Free Zones as set out in the report under subsection (2). (5) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of Commons.”
Lord Lansley
I am grateful for this opportunity to raise the issue of free zones. I thought I was likely to end up moving this amendment at about 10 pm last Wednesday, so it is a pleasure to have it on in prime time but, recognising the value of this time, I will be as brief as I can.
The point about this amendment is that free zones were legislated for way back in 1979. Indeed, they featured, not least during the 1980s, as part of a broader industrial strategy. I do not propose today to debate the merits or otherwise of free zones, because there are arguments that cut both ways. They are, by their nature, a distortion: they distort the customs and regulatory framework in favour of specific geographical locations. None the less, there can be significant benefits associated with that happening in circumstances where one needs to advantage certain geographical areas. That is why, for example, they have been used in the past, and are used widely around the world, in relation to some more disadvantaged economic areas, and specifically in relation to ports of entry—not just seaports but airports and the like. The reasoning there is that the ports of entry to an economy are often in competition not so much with other parts of the geography of that country as with other ports in neighbouring areas.
The European Union has a general disinclination towards free zones because the single market effectively creates one single customs territory. Arguing against myself, if we were to be in a single customs territory with the European Union, the question of free zones would probably not arise at all—but if we are not to be, it ought to arise. Under these circumstances, it would be good to legislate in the Bill to encourage Her Majesty’s Treasury to bring forward both a consultation allowing the merits of free zone designation and its use in this country to be debated, and proposals to Parliament about how that designation might be deployed.
There are ports that are interested in this, and the Treasury’s approach—that it is happy to consider free zone designation under the 1979 legislation—is understandable. But it is for the ports themselves to decide whether they wish to do this. I understand some ports may wish to; Teesport and Humberside are interested, and Associated British Ports is interested. If we leave the European Union and do not form part of a customs territory with it, they may well bring forward proposals. In the interests of the legislative approach to this, we should have something that encourages that to happen as quickly as possible in an ordered way. That is why the deadlines in the amendment are swift: to initiate a consultation within three months, and to report on that consultation within six months. In quite short order after exit day, we in this country could see to what extent our ports would need and benefit from free zone designation to enable them to compete more effectively with other ports—not least those on the other side of the North Sea or the English Channel.
That is the reason we should think about this. Those bringing their goods to Europe have never previously had to think about customs or other formalities, or the imposition of duty on those goods if they are brought to the United Kingdom and then re-exported elsewhere in Europe. Unfortunately, they may have to think about that.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. As he rightly says, free ports are distortionary by definition. If you create a free port close to another port, one will survive and the other will probably disappear altogether. Does he think his Government would be tempted by the thought that they could say, “If we have a local MP who votes for us and supports this Government, we will make the port free; but if we have an MP who dares to vote against us, we will make the port unfree and ruin it”?
Lord Lansley
The noble Lord will observe that the amendment seeks a consultation on the part of the Treasury, and that consultation would undoubtedly enable these issues to be explored on an even-handed basis. In the scenario I was describing, any port would be free to come forward and seek designation. It is not something that would be handed out on the basis of any partiality; rather, it would be done by examining the cases made by those ports. The point is that whereas in the past we may have concluded that there was no basis for introducing such a distortion into our economic activity, if and when UK ports are principally having to compete in international trade with other European ports, we may conclude that it is not a distortion to trade inside the United Kingdom. Actually, it is an aid to competitiveness for the United Kingdom in relation to ports elsewhere in Europe. I beg to move.
Lord Bates
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lansley for moving this amendment. He has managed to get on to prime time in this territory. I once represented a seat on Teesside, which is very close to my heart. The idea has been advocated by the excellent mayor there, Ben Houchen, and by some of the local MPs, such as Simon Clarke and Rishi Sunak.
To reassure my noble friend, the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979—CEMA—allows for the designation of free zones, as he mentioned. The Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act, which the Government passed through your Lordships’ House last September, allows HMRC to make regulations regarding goods kept in a free zone. Under CEMA, operators are free to apply to become a free zone. The Government are open to any ideas that might deliver economic advantages for the UK and will continue to examine the role that free zones may play as part of this. Assuming that we will have an independent trade policy, we will be able to have these types of examinations and innovations.
Existing customs facilitations in the UK offer the same benefits as free zones, but are not geographically limited and can be accessed anywhere across the country, thereby potentially having more widespread benefits for the UK as a whole. For example, a manufacturer could import materials for its products and store them in a customs warehouse anywhere else in the country, without duties being paid on them. The manufacturer or its supply chain could then use those materials in its manufacturing process under inward processing relief and could export the finished goods without any UK customs duty ever having to be paid. Those existing facilitations, therefore, avoid the distortions to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred, which can arise from free zones where a manufacturer or its supply chain would be required to locate on the same site to benefit.
The UK’s ability to formulate a free zone that diverges from the Union customs code will depend on the future relationship with the European Union. The Government have also been clear that it is a commercial decision for operators to make on whether they want to apply for designation of an area as a free zone, and we will review any applications made. I am not able to be more helpful than that to my noble friend at this point, much as I may wish to be.
Lord Lansley
Since there is no recent substantial experience of free zones, does my noble friend not think it would be helpful—if we arrive at the point where we exit the Union customs code—for the Government at least to initiate a consultation to look at the criteria that would be applied in examining the designation of free-zone status?
Lord Bates
My noble friend will be aware that “consultation” has a specific meaning now in legal terms, which is quite an onerous responsibility of the process. We could seek ways to discuss—perhaps with BEIS as part of the industrial strategy—or to engage with others who are interested. He mentioned Humberside, Teesside and others, and I think we could look at ways in which that could be done. I am very happy to take that thought back to the Treasury and write to him further on that.
Lord Lansley
Once again, I am grateful to my noble friend and that is a very welcome comment. I look forward to further discussion about that but, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Trade agreement with the EU: mobility framework
It shall be the objective of the Secretary of State to take all necessary steps to secure an international trade agreement with the European Union which includes a mobility framework that enables all UK and EU citizens to exercise the same reciprocal rights to work, live and study for the purpose of the provision of trade in goods or services.”
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, we have come to the fourth day of Committee on the Bill. Before the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, became herald to this issue, we really had not talked about people. Trade is about people—it is about people who make and sell things, people who sell their services abroad, and people who come to this country to sell their services and goods to us. There are strong arguments for the preservation of free movement in any future treaty. Amendment 66 requires the UK to negotiate with the EU an international trade agreement that allows UK and EU citizens to continue to work, live and study abroad.
Free movement is good for the economy: it boosts efficiency and innovation. Meanwhile, its impacts on public services, crime and unemployment are generally positive—I will come back to those points shortly. There is a cultural and societal benefit which comes with the opportunity to work, live and study in other cultures and develop mutual understanding and friendships. These are often set to one side and referred to as “soft power” in a way which suggests that they are somehow less useful than hard power. However, these are important things, to do with the influence of our country in the rest of Europe. I will focus on the first two elements of the benefits from free movement.
In no small measure, we have a Prime Minister who is obsessive about the need to end free movement; this is reflected fully in the political declaration and the way we are moving forward. As the Minister set out, there is some outline in the political declaration, but of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, pointed out, it is merely a wish and not a reality. The political declaration says that free movement of people will end—we know that that is what the Prime Minister set out to achieve. The UK and the EU will provide visa-free travel, but only for short-term visits; both parties will consider visa conditions for research, study, training and youth exchanges; both parties will consider addressing social security co-ordination; both parties will consider measures to minimise border checks; both parties will seek to co-operate on parental responsibility measures; and there will be a framework to enable people to travel temporarily to the other territory for business purposes. The exception to this is the common travel area within Ireland, which will be unaffected. However, the rest of the immigration process, just like the rest of Brexit, is left hanging.
I am interested in what the Minister can say; clearly, he may not be able to say it directly. Those bullet points are interesting, and are clearly a result of a joint discussion between the European Union and the United Kingdom. Which of those points arose from the United Kingdom’s point of view and wish list, and which of them came from the European Union? In other words, what was the thinking of the two parties going forward?
Before we look at the trade influences specifically, I want to make the point clearly that ending the free movement of people in and to this country is a stupid idea. I shall take as my text to prove this the Migration Advisory Committee’s report of 18 September. When it comes to the impact of economic migrants from the EEA, the committee finds that, overall, there is,
“no evidence that EEA migration has reduced employment opportunities for UK-born people on average”,
and that overall there is,
“no evidence that EEA migration has reduced wages for UK-born workers on average”.
The committee notes that there is:
“Evidence that immigration has, on average, a positive impact on productivity”,
and:
“High-skilled immigrants increase innovation”.
I remind your Lordships that those two issues of innovation and productivity are key objectives of the Government’s Industrial Strategy. The committee also notes that EEA migrants,
“make a larger contribution both in terms of money and work to the NHS than they receive in health services”,
and that there is:
“No evidence that migration has reduced the quality of healthcare”.
Quite the contrary, I would say. Indeed, it is clear that the social care sector struggles to recruit sufficient people. With the current freedom of movement calling that into question, what will happen in the future?
The House of Commons Library estimates that in 2017 there were 10,705 doctors, 20,276 nurses, and 14,247 clinical support staff in the NHS who were EU nationals. It estimates that in the last two years the net number of nurses and midwives who were EU nationals, for example, has fallen by over 5,000. We heard in today’s Question Time about the struggle that the NHS is having to recruit future doctors. There were 41,000 nursing vacancies in England, and the Royal College of Nursing estimates that this will rise to 48,000 by 2023 as fewer start nursing degrees each year. In social care, things are much worse, with about 110,000 vacancies.
The Migration Advisory Committee found no evidence that migration has reduced parental choice at schools. Nor has it reduced attainment, and there is no evidence that it has an effect on the overall level of crime. The committee noted that EEA migrants pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits for public services. However, and tellingly, the committee is also not convinced that sufficient attention is paid to ensuring that the extra resources that have come in from those migrants is being spent in the areas where they live. That is a very important point.
Housing raises another important nuance. In pointing out that only a very small fraction of migrants occupy social housing, the committee also pointed out that, given that virtually no new social housing was being built, any migrant in social housing is excluding a UK-born tenant. The committee also found that migration has increased housing prices. It then went on to note that the housing issue cannot be taken in isolation from other government policy. “Hear, hear”, I say to that. For my part, it is clear that the woeful performance in housebuilding by successive Governments is a much larger irritant on the housing issue in this country than migrants. The evidence points to the need not to stop the beneficial flow of economic migrants but for targeted government investment in the communities that have generally been termed to have been left behind.
As the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, so eloquently put it in his speech during our debate before Christmas, these communities will not be benefited by making Britain poorer, and one way to make the UK poorer is to end free movement.
It is fair to say that there is a huge cognitive dissonance between the published evidence of the Migration Advisory Committee and the political declaration and immigration White Paper. Her Majesty’s Government are seeking to exclude a group of people who contribute positively to our national life. Worse than that, in justifying their policies, they vilify that group for issues that are caused by government mistakes and mismanagement.
The immigration White Paper makes clear distinctions between what are termed skilled and unskilled workers—here we come to the point raised just now by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. It uses the existing salary threshold of £30,000 to differentiate between those two groups of future employees. Yes, it makes the process of applying for tier 2 visas easier by proposing to abolish the 270,000 annual cap and the resident labour market test, which was a heavy administrative burden on businesses trying to hire from overseas. However, the salary cap is a fundamentally wrong proposal, because it conflates salary with skill. There are many jobs, not least in research and development, where experts are paid below that cap. They still have fabulous skills to offer this country, but they earn less than a £30,000 salary. The White Paper itself estimates that, overall, those restrictions would reduce the net inflow of EEA long-term workers by about 80% in the first five years. This would result in GDP being up to 0.9% lower in 2025.
So-called unskilled workers will not be offered a route into the UK in the long term, according to current proposals. In the interim, the Government will allow unskilled workers to apply for temporary, 12-month visas. This fails the logic test. High-skilled workers may be contributing more in tax, but lower skilled migrants are offering a huge contribution in the services they offer to this country. The Migration Advisory Committee report makes that clear.
There is also a tacit admission in the Government’s own words when they allude to work-related schemes. Once we start looking for sectors that might need such schemes, frankly, we can include the vast majority of the UK economy, but given that agriculture and the hospitality industry are two important parts of our international trade, perhaps the Minister can explain what volume of work-related immigrants the Government anticipate being admitted and how that equates to the stated needs of those two industries.
I am also anxious to learn the Government’s view on how self-employed people or freelancers will trade across the EU-UK border. Here I declare an interest, as I have at least one family member who is a freelancer. Self-employed people are vital to our service industry and dominate in particular sectors. I know that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will speak on their role in the tech and creative sectors, for example. How will self-employed people be able to contribute, going forward?
Lord Framlingham (Con)
I am listening very carefully to the noble Lord. Does he accept or acknowledge that there are any problems at all with the freedom of movement?
Lord Fox
If the noble Lord reviews what I said in Hansard, he will see that I talked about two particular issues highlighted by the Migration Advisory Committee.
In addition to listening for the reaction of the Labour Front Bench in this House, from the Government I am listening for the Minister to publicly acknowledge the benefits that EEA migrants have brought to the lives of all of us in the UK. More than that, I hope to hear the Minister confirm that Her Majesty’s Government understand that trade is intrinsically about people, whether working alone or in companies and organisations, and—as previous speakers have brought out—that this is even more important in an economy centred on services, such as ours. Therefore, the more they can move and trade, the better it is for the United Kingdom’s economy. I wish to hear that the Government understand that to restrain the trade of EEA nationals in the UK will not only forfeit the benefits they bring but materially restrain hundreds of thousands—if not more—UK people trading in the EU 27. I would like the Minister to rule out the use of this as a bargaining chip in negotiations. That is why I would like to write this into the Bill. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Fox has introduced his amendment extremely eloquently and convincingly. In supporting it, I highlight the fact that without the right deal on movement of talent and skills, our creative industries will face major challenges. Some 5.7% of the UK workforce is made up of EU 27 nationals. However, 6.1% of the creative industries workforce is made up of EU 27 nationals. More than that, 10% of the design, publishing and advertising workforce are EU 27 nationals. Some 25% of our visual effects in film—VFX—workforce is from the EU, and that rises to 30% in gaming. We are highly dependent, in those areas of the creative industries, on EU 27 nationals.
Take the music industry, for example. Some £2.5 billion was generated by music in export revenue. Germany, France and Sweden are among our top export markets, and are major destinations for our musicians. In the recent ISM survey of musicians, 39% said that they travel to the EU more than five times a year; 12% travel to the EU more than 20 times a year. More than one in eight performers had fewer than seven days’ notice between being offered work and having to take it, and more than a third of musicians said they received at least half their income from working in the EU 27. There are warnings from these musicians from their experience with the rest of the world. More than a third of musicians had experienced difficulties with visas when travelling outside the EU. In fact, of those experiencing difficulties, 79% identified visas as the source of those difficulties. Musicians in particular rely on being able to work and tour in Europe freely, easily and often with little notice.
It is equally important that the other people vital to touring, such as roadies and technical staff, are able to travel on the same basis. It is also vital that instruments and equipment can be moved around easily, and this must be a reciprocal arrangement. On touring, the Government have said that the UK will look to reach an agreement allowing musicians and museums to tour major events with their equipment and goods. What is considered a major event is not clarified and there are few details on what an agreement would look like.
The Government propose that the new immigration system will preserve the current rules for employing non-visa nationals for short-term work to join a UK production. This allows them to work for up to three months without a visa, requiring only a certificate of sponsorship from their employer, which is cheaper and easier to obtain. For periods longer than three months, the Government are reaffirming that the current tier 5 creative and sporting route, which caters for creative workers such as musicians, actors or artists who are working and touring in the UK, will continue. This is welcome but, again, without the right reciprocal provisions, Brexit is likely to make touring much more difficult for musicians and crews to move across Europe. Increased red tape will make it harder to promote music overseas.
Then, if the withdrawal agreement is agreed, from January 2021 non-visa nationals looking to take up permanent employment in the UK, such as VFX workers, will need to obtain a tier 2 visa. This requires sponsorship from an employer, which must pay a skills charge to make the recruitment. Workers must meet a minimum salary requirement to be eligible for a tier 2 visa. Like my noble friend, I welcome that the Government now plan to consult on the appropriate level for this requirement in the coming year, but the Migration Advisory Committee—MAC—has recommended that it stays at £30,000. There will need to be considerable changes to these proposals if the Government are to ensure that sectors such as the creative industries continue to thrive post Brexit. As the Creative Industries Federation has said,
“high skills do not always command a high salary”.
There is still a huge lack of clarity. The UK Screen Alliance has criticised the plans for a post-Brexit visa system. It says the Bill’s proposed visa system will “severely limit” the VFX and animation industries’ access to international talent. It also says that expensive new EU visas will add significantly to operating costs and impact on the sector’s competitiveness in the global market. Alan Bishop, the chief executive of the Creative Industries Federation, said about the White Paper:
“Unfortunately there is very little in this white paper which will give creative businesses and freelancers in the UK any confidence for the future … government has failed to recognise the challenges freelancers face within the current immigration system—a significant challenge for the Creative Industries Federation where 35% of creative workers are self-employed. Freedom of movement has given British businesses access to the best and brightest freelancers from the EU, presenting those businesses with opportunities to grow and contribute to the continuing health of the UK economy. For international non-EEA freelancers however, the current immigration system provides no long-term route. This is why the Federation has called for the introduction of a freelance visa”.
Those are the words of two significant organisations in this field.
The Government have had plenty of time to consider all these issues and have had plenty of sound advice, not least from quarters such as the July report of the House of Lords European Union Committee, Brexit: Movement of People in the Cultural Sector. That is why this amendment is so important, and I very much hope that the Minister will reflect in his response that the Government fully understand the needs of the creative sector.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, a powerful case has been made by the party to my left. My sadness is that the framing of the amendment before us deals largely with how any future trade agreement with the EU should have a relaxed approach to the mobility framework and, picking up the point of our earlier debate, tries to insert in some measure the fourth pillar of the GATS process, which allows for individuals to travel in support of goods and services.
The case we heard, and the emotion it raises, are about the much broader ideas of freedom of movement and the ability to transfer skills, particularly in the creative industries. Although it was not specifically mentioned, presumably it seeks to try to loosen the way in which the Government currently treat overseas students. There is a wider, richer, deeper and more important argument about the need for mobility, its importance for any modern nation state and the contribution it can make to our economy and our culture. That needs to be answered, but it is not picked up particularly by this amendment.
We too discovered this problem when tabling amendments. The title of the Bill means that we can not have as broad a discussion as we would wish. However, there is an immigration Bill coming, and others in your Lordships’ House will want to pick up many of the points made here and raise them in the context of a much wider and more appropriate set of immigration conditions and arrangements, which will satisfy much of the discussions we have heard this afternoon.
On the narrow question of where we move, it would be wrong to try to seek a broader solution to the problems identified through a generic approach. There is no doubt that what appeared to be—and it was appearance rather than reality—unbridled immigration was a factor in the referendum that led to the formation of the Brexit arrangements. We would be stupid to ignore that. There are probably answers and solutions that would be satisfactory to all concerned, but not in this amendment. Nevertheless, I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in response to this point. This issue will not go away and we look forward to returning to it at a future stage.
Lord Bates
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for introducing this amendment, which deals with an important area already touched on this afternoon. It will of course be pored over in some detail as the immigration Bill makes its way to your Lordships’ House.
There is no dodging the key line in the political declaration. At paragraph 56, I think, it makes it clear that free movement will end as the UK leaves the EU. The noble Lord is passionate in his advocacy of free movement, and he has expressed his view that it is a stupid idea—I think I quote him correctly—to get rid of it. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, identified, this issue is more complex. To use his term, unbridled immigration was an issue, and we would be stupid to ignore that. Therefore, there is a difference of views here but, as the noble Lord invites me to set out the Government’s position, I will put it on the record if I can.
I appreciate the desire to ensure that businesses and individuals who trade in services and goods between the UK and the EU will have the ability to move across borders to do so. The Government are committed to securing the best deal for UK businesses. We have set out a clear proposal for an ambitious future relationship with the European Union, including a reciprocal framework for mobility. This was reflected in the political declaration on our future relationship. The detail will be discussed in the next phase of our negotiations.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, earlier the Minister mentioned crossing borders. Would that include onward movement, which is a particular concern of not only individuals and self-employed people in this country but British people living in Europe? Time and again, I have heard that that is a particular concern.
Lord Bates