Social Housing and Regulation Bill (First sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2022
(1 year, 5 months ago)
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The Chair
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email any speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. All the normal rules apply.
Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and then a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. I am sure we can take those matters formally, without debate. I first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Ordered,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 29 November) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 November;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 December;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 8 December;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 13 December;
(2) the proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 13; Schedule 1; Clause 14; Schedule 2; Clauses 15 to 35; Schedule 3; Clauses 36 to 38; Schedule 4; Clauses 39 and 40; Schedule 5; Clauses 41 to 44; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(3) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 13 December.—(Dehenna Davison.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Dehenna Davison.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.
We will now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. A selection and grouping list for today’s sittings is available in the room. It shows how the clauses and selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar issues. Please note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order they are debated, but in the order that they appear on the amendment paper. The selection and grouping list shows the order of debates. Decisions on each amendment and on whether each clause should stand part of the Bill are taken when we come to the relevant clause.
A Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group is called first. Other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on all or any of the amendments in that group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of the debate on a group of amendments, I shall call the Member who moved the lead amendment again. Before they sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision on it. If any Member wishes to press another amendment in the group to a vote, they will need to let me know in advance.
Clause 1
Fundamental objectives
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 1, page 1, line 5, at end insert—
‘(aa) after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) to ensure the provision of care and support services in supported exempt accommodation and in temporary accommodation are adequate, well-managed, safe, and of appropriate quality,”’.
This amendment would ensure that support services provided to residents of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation for those properties that already fall within consumer regulation are adequate and of an acceptable quality.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8—Standards relating to supported and temporary accommodation—
‘(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 192 (Overview)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “social housing” insert “, supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation”
(3) In section 193 (Standards relating to consumer matters)—
(a) in subsection (1), after “social housing” insert “or accommodation to which subsections (1A) to (1D) applies”
(b) after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State, after consultation with the regulator, may by order bring into consumer regulation accommodation managed or in the control of a registered provider that falls within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D).
(1B) An order under subsection (1A) may apply to either subsection (1C) or (1D) only or to both and orders commencing either can be made separately at different times and for any part of England.
(1C) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is supported exempt accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1D) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is temporary accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1E) The Secretary of State may by regulations set out the classes of accommodation that fall within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D) and may define each class by reference to the Housing Benefit Regulations 2006 or the Universal Credit Regulations 2013.”
(c) in subsection (2), after paragraph (2)(d) insert—
“(da) standards relating to supported exempt accommodation or temporary accommodation,”’.
This new clause would ensure that providers of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation who are registered with the regulator and charge market rents covered by housing benefit are brought within the scope of the new consumer regulatory regime.
Matthew Pennycook
It is a pleasure to begin our line-by-line consideration of the Bill with you in the Chair, Sir Edward, and in a Committee with a considerable amount of housing expertise, which I hope will put us in good stead for further improving the Bill. The Opposition have consistently maintained that the Bill is uncontroversial legislation, and we welcome it and the measures it contains.
We desperately need to build more social homes, but we also need to ensure that our existing stock is of good quality and well managed. Almost half a million social homes fail to meet the Government’s decent homes standard and, as that standard is not a requirement, it is almost impossible to enforce.
The Regulator of Social Housing can and does react to systemic failings among registered providers—for example, the request for evidence issued in relation to damp and mould following the coroner’s report into the death of two-year-old Awaab Ishak in 2020—but at present it has no proactive way of regulating consumer standards. The spotlight of media attention, tenant campaigning or intervention by individual hon. Members should not be required to trigger the appropriate response to substandard conditions in social housing, yet that is all too often the case.
To ensure that tenants are properly protected by a robust, effective system of regulation, major reform is needed. Indeed, it is long overdue, and the Secretary of State was right to concede, in the wake of Awaab’s untimely death, that the Government have been too slow to toughen regulation in this area.
Despite its limited number of clauses, the Bill is therefore of real significance for millions of social housing tenants across the country. That is why the Opposition regret how long it took the Government to bring it forward, and it is why we want to see it on the statute book as soon as possible. To that end, we want to see the Committee to sit no longer than is absolutely necessary. However, we are determined to see the Bill strengthened in a number of areas, so that standards in social housing markedly and rapidly improve, tenants are able in practice to pursue and secure effective redress, the collective voice of tenants is heard more audibly and they have a greater role in shaping national policy, and we are better able to respond to pressing issues affecting some of those living in social housing, such as serious violence.
We owe it to the bereaved and the survivors of Grenfell, Awaab’s family and all those social tenants currently living in appalling conditions to pass the most robust legislation that the House can possibly deliver. To that end, we have tabled a limited number of amendments in key areas, the intention of which is to persuade the Government to reflect sincerely on how the Bill might be improved still further. Although we intend to work constructively with Ministers to secure the Bill’s speedy passage out of Committee, we expect the Government to give serious consideration to the arguments that we make in respect of those amendments.
Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation. The new clause would provide the Secretary of State with the power to bring properties let at market rents by non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation registered with the regulator into the scope of consumer regulation. It would allow Ministers to do so at a time of their choosing and on an area-by-area basis as required. The amendment would extend the regulator’s fundamental objectives to the care and support services provided by supported exempt and temporary accommodation in relation to properties that already fall within the scope of consumer regulation.
I want to be clear at the outset that these proposals do not seek to extend the scope of the regulatory framework provided for by the Bill to all non-registered supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers in a way that could place unreasonable burdens on the regulator. Rather, they would apply only to those landlords who are registered, or entitled to register, with the regulator as non-profit making providers because they let some properties at below market rents—that is, social housing.
The purpose of these two related proposals is to address an existing loophole that, unless addressed, will remain a problematic gap in the consumer regulatory regime after the Bill has come into force. It is that non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation can let properties at market rents that are eligible for housing benefit support on the basis that “more than minimal” care, support or supervision is being provided, without those properties coming within the scope of consumer regulation.
We know that the regulatory gap is currently being exploited by unscrupulous providers. The three biggest registered providers of non-commissioned exempt accommodation in Birmingham last year, Reliance Social Housing CIC, Ash-Shahada Housing Association Ltd and Concept Housing Association CIC, received £159 million in housing benefit payments for 16,370 market rent properties that fell outside consumer regulation. They were able to operate those properties free from the fear of intervention on consumer standards grounds, because they collectively operate 310 properties—in Reliance’s case, it is just six—at below market rents.
As a result of the regulator being unable to enforce against poor performance by providers in relation to market rent properties that they operate on the basis of consumer standards, the regulator can enforce against bad practice in such cases only on grounds of economic viability. It has done so—for example, it found the large, Birmingham-based Reliance to be non-compliant with the governance and financial viability standard in October last year. However, Opposition Members struggle to understand why the Government have not enabled the regulator to take action against supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers letting units at market rents who fail to meet expected standards, using the tools provided for by the new proactive consumer regulatory regime introduced by the Bill, given that permitting it to do so would simply provide an additional weapon in the regulator’s arsenal when it comes to clamping down on unscrupulous providers.
It is true that clause 8(d) tightens the definition of what constitutes a non-profit making provider. That should help to ensure that some of the most flagrant abuses, such as out-of-balance portfolios, can be clamped down on. However, it will not end all instances of rogue providers gaming the system by letting some properties at below market rents, registering as non-profit making providers on that basis, and then operating far larger numbers of substandard market rent properties outside the scope of consumer regulation. For example, those with more balanced portfolios—presumably even if that were achieved on the basis of a split of 51% of properties let non-profit and 49% for profit—will escape the provisions of clause 8 that I just referred to.
We recognise that the Government support, as we do, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Harrow East. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is on the Committee with us. His Bill will enhance local authority oversight of supported housing and thereby enable local authorities to drive up standards in their areas. However, it does not contain provisions to close the particular loophole that is the focus of amendment 13 and new clause 8. As such, if the Government do not accept our amendments or bring forward their own to tackle the loophole in question, enforcement action on the part of the regulator in these cases will be confined to matters of economic regulation.
One element of our concern about the gap in the proposed consumer regulatory regime that the amendments seek to address is that, once the hon. Gentleman’s Bill has received Royal Assent, rogue providers of supported exempt accommodation will be incentivised to exploit this loophole further, as it will be one of the last remaining loopholes because their operations will be hampered by the range of measures in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill. Using the Bill before us to address the issue of supported exempt and temporary accommodation landlords who are already partially regulated would also close down the loophole more quickly than would be possible by doing so through the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, because it will be some time before that Bill is in Committee, and the detailed regulations required to give it full effect will take some time to be passed.
If the Government were persuaded of the merits of the argument underpinning amendment 13 and new clause 8, they could determine to deal with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation separately. We ultimately decided that the amendments should cover both, because there is good evidence to suggest that the loophole is being increasingly exploited by private temporary accommodation providers, in particular those providing nightly paid temporary accommodation, who often describe themselves as social landlords but who are exempt from consumer regulation in relation to substandard properties they let at market rents at great cost to the taxpayer.
Dealing with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation together is also an attempt to pre-emptively address the scenario in which the Government accept that properties let at market rents by registered non-profit making providers of supported exempt accommodation should be covered by consumer regulation and legislate to that end, but, by setting aside market rent temporary accommodation let by registered non-profit providers, ensure that that becomes an obvious target for rogue providers seeking to escape consumer regulation standards.
I appreciate fully—I expect that the Minister will respond along these lines—that the Government will be reluctant to re-open at this stage of the Bill’s proceedings what and who falls within the ambit of the new consumer regulatory regime, but surely they cannot believe that the Bill as drafted ensures that support services beyond general management that are provided to residents of supported exempt and temporary accommodation will be of acceptable quality, or that non-profit making registered providers can simply ignore consumer standards when it comes to those properties let at market rents eligible for housing benefit support.
The issues that are the subject of these two amendments will need to be addressed if the Government are serious about clamping down on rogue providers who take public money while failing vulnerable people. I hope that the Minister can signal that the Government are minded to act either by accepting the amendments or by bringing forward their own in due course.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Edward. I am incredibly grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, for the constructive way he has embraced this debate, for the Opposition’s broad support for the Bill, and for his commitment to ensuring that the regulator is as robust as it can be. On that point, we have certainly found some early agreement.
As the hon. Member outlined, amendment 13 would extend the remit of the regulator to the care and support provided to residents in supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation, while new clause 8 would extend the remit to those types of accommodation when they are not social housing but are held by a registered provider.
Temporary accommodation and supported housing that meets the definition of social housing is already regulated under the regulator’s standards, and the Care Quality Commission already regulates the provision of personal care in supported housing. The support needs of people in supported housing are wide, varied and often complex compared with those living in general needs accommodation. That is why we are supporting targeted measures in the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, to tackle the issues we are seeing in supported housing. I echo the shadow Minister’s comments; I am very grateful that my hon. Friend is bringing his incredible expertise to the Committee.
While there are many excellent supported housing providers, the Government recognise that there are some rogue supported housing landlords. Let me be completely clear for the record: any abuse of the supported housing system will not be tolerated. The Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill will introduce national standards to be applied to supported housing and to give local authorities new powers to introduce licensing schemes and other enforcement powers.
Temporary accommodation is a key safety net for homeless households in this country. The homelessness code of guidance is clear that, at a minimum, temporary accommodation must be free from all category 1 health hazards, as assessed by the housing health and safety rating system, and it must be suitable for all members of the household. Households have the right to request that the council reviews the suitability of their accommodation.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
On temporary accommodation for homeless families and the code of guidance, who enforces the code? Who knows whether councils are living up to it? Who inspects the accommodation with a third eye to see whether it meets the standards?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow that up with the hon. Member in writing after our sittings today.
Dehenna Davison
As I have just outlined, I will write to the hon. Member to pick up her point following today’s sittings.
The focus of the Regulator of Social Housing is on regulating the standards for registered providers of social housing. I believe that the regulator should remain focused on that vital role, and that greatly expanding its scope to include temporary accommodation could be a significant risk to its expertise. I do not believe that expanding the scope of the regulator into those areas, as proposed by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, is the right way to address them. The regulator should continue to focus on ensuring that registered providers provide safe and high-quality social housing for tenants and on delivering the new consumer regime.
On that basis, I ask the shadow Minister to consider withdrawing his amendments today, but with a commitment from me to follow up with him before Report to see whether anything more can be done.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister for their compliments about me and my Bill. No doubt we will be debating it in one of these Committee Rooms in the not too distant future.
One concern about the position on supported housing is the number of regulators that get involved already. There is almost a confusion of regulation. There is another problem: as we legislators seek to plug gaps, the rogue landlords seek alternative ways of making huge amounts of money. We already know that nearly £1 billion in housing benefit was paid out last year on supported housing in exempt accommodation. Clearly, that was for people who are vulnerable and need help and support. They are from a wide variety of different backgrounds. They might be recovering drug addicts; they might be people who became temporarily homeless or people who have had mental or physical health problems. I could go through a long list of people, but they are vulnerable and need help and support.
However, I have a concern about the proposed amendments. They seek to plug a gap, but are they comprehensive enough? We need more discussion to make sure we have a comprehensive measure that includes everything and makes it clear who the regulator is. Given the interventions by the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, we want to make sure, as a Committee and as legislators, that the laws we introduce are actually enforced.
Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)
The shadow Minister made a very interesting point, and I believe his case has some merit. We have invested in pilots in several areas of the country so that we can explore the case more fully. When the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee looked at the procedure, there was some frustration on the part of Members about the fact that we cannot easily compartmentalise the breadth of people who are supported in the accommodation, so a range of organisations have oversight of the quality of the accommodation provided, supported or otherwise. We need further work to be done through the pilots to make sure that any intervention we make does not have unintended consequences for the providers who provide excellent quality supported accommodation.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Clearly, while the amendments may have good intentions, he makes a good point. We do not want the good providers, who are doing a fantastic job in supporting people to rebuild their lives, to face unnecessary burdens and regulation. It behoves the movers of amendments such as these to ensure that we have covered all those bases.
We must therefore ask: even though the amendments look superficially beneficial, do we have a comprehensive series of measures that plugs all the loopholes and does not burden good providers? Rogue providers are smart; they will look at any gaps in the law and for all opportunities to exploit the system and vulnerable people. The sensible thing would be to withdraw the amendment and have further discussion so that, together, on a cross-party basis, we can make sure that the Bill ends up in the right place.
Siobhain McDonagh
I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. At the moment, we have two things going on. First, we have exempt accommodation, where private property developers access vulnerable people and place them in houses in multiple occupation, cream off large amounts of housing benefit and provide no support to those individuals. They are exploited and left until the police, in many cases, or mental health services come along and take them away. Secondly, neighbourhoods are completely terrorised by people who are vulnerable but unable to control their behaviour, and absolutely nobody regulates that.
I represent a suburban south-west London constituency. Do not get me wrong; properties are not cheap, but they are cheaper than in other bits of London. Companies such as Stef & Philips are exploiting wholesale every loophole and making large amounts of money to bring fear and distress to neighbourhoods and to the residents who occupy those premises.
Last week, a lady who lives in the Pollards Hill area came to my surgery. The 1930s semi-detached house next door to her had been converted into an HMO for five vulnerable tenants. There were no bins to collect the rubbish and no facilities to ensure people could live adequately. She lives next door and has cancer. One of the residents in that home had pulled a knife on her only the day before, and all the other vulnerable tenants in the house had to stay locked in their rooms to avoid that individual. Stef & Philips are making hundreds or thousands of pounds every week from that property.
In Ravensbury, another ward in my constituency, on Malmesbury Road, the same company had a man who was so vulnerable that the police raided the property and had to withdraw because he had a crossbow and they needed firearms support. The whole street was blocked off. That is St Helier estate, for any hon. Members who may know it. It is a beautiful local authority estate built after the first world war to provide homes fit for heroes. The house is beautiful, but not as an HMO for five vulnerable people. People in the street are terrified. Who knows how terrified the other residents in the property are? The company’s balance sheet goes up and up while people go out to work to pay ever-higher tax rates to sustain that company in exploiting people.
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making excellent points. That is the human impact of the lack of regulation and enforcement on rogue providers that are making millions out of very vulnerable people. Their impact is felt not only by the individuals who are being harmed, but by entire communities. Does she agree that although we do not want regulation for regulation’s sake, we need not just regulation but enforcement for those who are getting away with this scot-free right now? We do not just need legislation; we need the ability to enforce and act.
Siobhain McDonagh
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. If there is no regulation, this will just grow and grow. As mortgage interest rates go up and business for buy-to-let landlords becomes less profitable, more people are going to look at providing this style of housing, because they can exploit the housing benefit system. If that is not happening in the constituencies of all the hon. Members of this Bill Committee, it will be coming to them soon.
Eddie Hughes
The point I am about to make is non-political, given that I am going to use the example of Labour-led Birmingham Council. That council did pilot work, and its scrutiny committee, which was chaired by a Labour member, subsequently published a report. It was able to identify a number of improvements that it could make within the existing legislation. I fully appreciate that legal challenge is an option for landlords who have their claims turned down. However, the council was able to reduce the number of people coming through the pipeline to provide this type of accommodation, and it was able to improve the quality of that accommodation. There is some room for councils who are prepared to focus on this, to improve outcomes for local people within the framework of the existing legislation.
Siobhain McDonagh
I turn to Aves housing association, which was run by a man who was exposed by the BBC for running a former supposed housing association that is in fact a commercial enterprise. It specialises in parts of Pollards Hill and Longthornton in my constituency, which neighbour Croydon, and it routinely takes very vulnerable people to live in houses that are simply not big enough for conversion. It accesses people’s universal credit accounts and takes their money. When the housing benefit department at Merton Council discovered that, it decided not to pay housing benefit to Aves residents. That might seem sensible to most Committee Members. However, that then meant that 92 vulnerable people were not having their rent paid, so were vulnerable to eviction—at which point, Merton Council’s housing department and adult social services departments would have collapsed. Local authorities are in a bind. Do they take notice of what is going on—in which case, they get responsibilities they cannot meet—or do they turn a blind eye because, in the end, that is the only way they can manage?
Bob Blackman
The hon. Member is making a very clear case about the problems in her constituency. One problem that local authorities face is that they have no powers to prevent such properties from being turned over in this way. Does she agree that one issue we have to deal with, which is not addressed in this amendment, is that local authorities need powers? Those powers might be around planning permission to do with HMOs and HMO regulation, to control the type of housing that she quite rightly describes as being a challenge in her area; or they might be over a licensing system to make sure that the operators of supported housing projects are fit and proper persons who will not exploit their position.
Further, data-sharing should be spread across the country. These rogues might well jump from Merton to Croydon to somewhere else, because they know that the local authority does not know about them. However, that is not within the scope of the amendment, although it is in the scope of my Bill, which I will be debating later. Although we would all agree that the issues that the hon. Member has raised are a scandal and need to be addressed, we must be clear that that is not within the scope of the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh
I believe that the regulator should have power to look at this area of housing. It is all very well for councils to get more powers, and I would be the first to agree with that, but many councils already have a lot of powers that they cannot use because they cannot afford to. They do not have access to social housing units. They do not have access to the level of environmental health officers that they need. They do not have access to the number of planning officers they need in the area of planning enforcement.
Sarah Owen
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. The pilot work that the hon. Member for Harrow East just spoke about is fantastic. We will take whatever we can from that and learn, but the point is that the councils and authorities that did that work had to have extra resources to use their existing powers. This is not just about legislating and enabling local authorities to have more powers; it is also about them having the funds and resources to use those powers.
Siobhain McDonagh
Absolutely, and I know the hon. Member for Harrow East will be aware of how few London councils ever prosecute anybody under their current powers. It is about regulation, but it is also about local authorities being able to use their powers. In the light of the recent Budget, local authorities’ powers will become even less well used if their finances continue to be squeezed.
Let us go back to Aves in Pollards Hill and Longthornton. I met the regulator and spoke about Aves and my concern about the exploitation of tenants. The regulator said to me, “We completely agree with you, but there is nothing we can do. We do not have the power to do anything.” Either we give the regulator the powers and do something about it, or we go on talking about it in a well-meaning way while the problem exponentially grows. I, for one, want to see some action rather than none.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I think this is an important Bill. Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation when provided by providers that are the subject of other parts of the Bill. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made a very good case.
The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden made a passionate speech, and I think we can all relate to what she was saying, because we all have examples in our constituency of providers who sound very legitimate and credible, but after they are looked into, it turns out that they are not. They are fly-by-nights who are just taking the opportunity provided by the loophole in regulations. We can all cite examples of HMOs that have been passed by councils because the councils do not have the powers to stop them. The impact on neighbourhoods is quite dire, and it really does destroy local communities.
While I appreciate the intentions behind the Opposition’s amendments, I think the better place to close the gaps in regulation would be in the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. This measure is obviously needed, but I think this Bill is the wrong place for it. I hope to speak later about some of the specific issues in my constituency and the importance of regulating the providers and ensuring the provisions of the Bill are met, because they are so needed.
Matthew Pennycook
That was an incredibly informed and helpful debate. I just want to say at the outset that we fully appreciate how complex an area of law and regulation this is. I have done enough of these Committees to know that the Minister is not going to simply stand up and accept the amendments we have cobbled together just on the basis of my speech, however good it might have been.
I will try to respond to the points made, which I take in the constructive spirit they were offered in. I do not think many of the points made get to the heart of what the amendments are driving at. I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow East: there is a plethora of regulators in housing and planning generally, and I am concerned that we are creating overlap and confusion in various ways. I will come to how that might be true in relation to the ombudsman and the regulator when we discuss clause 5, but that is absolutely a point.
The Minister made the point well: the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Harrow East, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, includes a range of targeted measures to address the scandal—we all agree it is a scandal—of rogue providers of exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation in many cases. However, as I made clear, that Bill does not address this gap. The hon. Member for Erewash said that if it is not covered by these amendments, it can be done via the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, but it is not in that Bill. Perhaps it will end up in that Bill after Committee stage, in which case we will be entirely happy with that being a vehicle for it rather than this Bill, but it needs to be addressed.
Dehenna Davison
Absolutely, we will take this away. I would be grateful for the expertise of all on the Committee, including the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, who made an incredibly passionate case. Let us have a roundtable discussion about how best we can take this forward following Committee.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 2—Regulator duty to report on safety defects—
‘(1) In fulfilling its consumer regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must report to the Secretary of State on actions taken by registered providers to remediate unsafe external wall systems and other historic fire safety defects in social housing.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required to sufficiently address identified issues.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, the regulator would be required to report to the government on the progress of building safety remediation.
New clause 3—Regulator duty to support provision of social housing—
‘(1) In fulfilling its economic regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must–
(a) within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, and
(b) at intervals of no more than three years thereafter
provide a report to the Secretary of State on whether the supply of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations relating to how to ensure that the provision of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing sufficient to meet reasonable demands the regulator would be required to report to the government on adequacy of social housing supply.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 1 relates to the fundamental objectives of the Regulator of Social Housing and adds safety and energy efficiency of tenants’ accommodation and transparency. New clauses 2 and 3 seek to take that further and expand the role of the regulator into new areas.
New clause 2 relates to monitoring the remediation of unsafe cladding and other fire safety defects in the social housing sector. I want to make clear from the outset that nothing is more important to this Government than making sure people are safe in their homes. The tragic, horrendous case of Awaab Ishak, which we are all unfortunately now familiar with, has highlighted the crucial role of registered providers of social housing in making sure that happens.
The Bill sits alongside other key reforms that we have introduced in response to the Grenfell Tower fire, including the Building Safety Act 2022 and the Fire Safety Act 2021. New clause 2 is incredibly well intentioned, given what it seeks to achieve, but the Bill is not the correct vehicle for it. A duty should be placed on the Regulator of Social Housing to undertake such monitoring. The regulator is not a specialist fire or building safety body. The proposed new clause would be a significant expansion of the regulator’s remit. Currently, the regulator does not have the expertise to fulfil that function effectively.
The question of who should undertake that kind of role is, however, an important one for Government. The Department is evaluating options on how best to monitor and report on the progress made in remediating unsafe cladding and other fire-safety defects. It is important that the work is done at pace, but thoroughly. I understand that hon. Members will be keen to study its outcomes and implications for future policy, but I must reiterate that it would be improper to pre-empt it while it is ongoing by allocating responsibility for that highly important function without the benefit of fully understanding the options. We need to ensure that that work is undertaken by those with the correct skills, expertise and capacity. My concern with new clause 2, therefore, is that it would make for a hasty decision that might mean we do not achieve the desired outcomes in the optimal way.
I turn to new clause 3. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is right to draw attention to the importance of increasing the supply of social housing. In the levelling-up White Paper, we made it clear that we want to
“increase the amount of social housing available over time to provide the most affordable housing to those who need it.”
Our £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will play an important role in achieving that aim, as will the measures we have taken to support increased council house building.
For its part, the regulator has an objective to support the provision of sufficient social housing. It discharges that role through its work to ensure that private registered providers are financially viable, efficient and well governed. In turn, that helps providers to obtain funding to enable them to deliver more social housing. However, I do not agree that we should make the regulator responsible for assessing the adequacy of social housing provision in England or, indeed, in Wales. I am concerned that such an additional role could divert resources away from the activities that should be the focus for the regulator, which is setting standards for social housing so that landlords are clear about expectations on them to deliver quality of housing, to monitor compliance with those standards and, where necessary, to undertake relevant enforcement action.
Organisations outside Government often publish their own analysis of the level of need for social housing. There are a number of different approaches to assess that, and not necessarily a single right answer. I am therefore not convinced that the regulator stepping in to provide its own assessment is the right approach. It should focus on the task at hand and on standards, quality and enforcement. On that basis we would not want to accept new clauses 2 and 3.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for her explanation of the clause and for the response to the two new clauses tabled by the Opposition. As the Minister has made clear, with a view to providing for a stronger and more proactive consumer regulatory regime, the clause expands the regulator’s fundamental objectives as set out in the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to include those of safety, transparency and—following the well-deserved success of Baroness Hayman’s amendment in the other place on standards relating to energy demand—energy efficiency.
My response to the case that the Minister made against new clauses 2 and 3 has, thankfully, pre-empted a number of the points she has just made. New clause 2 seeks to ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well managed and of appropriate quality, under proposed new subsection (3)(a) of the amended 2008 Act the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the progress of building safety remediation in the social housing sector.
According to the Department’s own figures, every one of the 160 social sector buildings identified as having unsafe aluminium composite material—ACM—cladding, similar to that which covered Grenfell Tower, have been remediated through the social sector ACM cladding remediation fund. When it comes to buildings in the social sector with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, we know that, as of 31 October, 251 have applied for Government funding for remediation. Alarmingly, as things stand, not a single one of those 251 buildings has been remediated.
Perhaps more worryingly, we have no estimate of the total number of social sector buildings with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, because social landlords can apply for Government funding only if the costs of remediation are unaffordable or if there is a threat to their financial viability. We have no idea whatsoever how many social sector buildings have other non-cladding building safety defects.
There is a wider debate to be had outside this Committee about social landlords’ restricted access to funding for non-ACM remediation work, given the impact that has on social tenants, whose rent payments are contributing to the costs of the works required, and on providers in terms of upgrade and maintenance works, services provided such as welfare advice and the supply of new social homes.
However, all new clause 2 seeks to achieve is to make the regulator—which, as a result of the Bill will now have to perform its functions with a view to supporting the provision of social housing that is safe—report to the Secretary of State on the progress of remediating unsafe external wall systems and other historical fire safety defects in social housing, and provides it with the opportunity to make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required.
Speaking for the Government in the other place in response to a similar amendment in the name of Baroness Pinnock, Baroness Scott of Bybrook argued, as the Minister just has, that the type of monitoring sought by new clause 2 would not be “appropriate” for the regulator to undertake because
“it is not a specialist health and safety body.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 September 2022; Vol. 824, c. 114.]
I am afraid that we find that argument wholly unconvincing.
New clause 2 does not seek to impose a duty on the regulator to carry out inspections of social sector buildings that are either potentially unsafe or identified as unsafe and in need of remediation or to physically monitor the progress of remediation works. As such, it does not require the regulator to possess the relevant professional skills, expertise and capacity necessary for assessments of that nature. All it would require is that the regulator be responsible for reporting to the Government on the progress of remediation in respect of social sector buildings—on the overall number of such buildings identified as having defects and the progress of whether they have started and completed remediation.
Given that the regulator already collects data from registered providers to inform its regulation of standards, and that the Bill ensures that one of the regulator’s new fundamental objectives will be the safety of buildings, we believe it is entirely reasonable and appropriate to task it with reporting to the Government along these lines.
As the Minister made clear, the Government have been at pains over recent months to stress they are examining options for monitoring and reporting remediation progress in future. Yet, as we consider the Bill today, neither the Department nor the new Building Safety Regulator is providing accurate data with regard to the scale of the building safety challenge in the social housing sector, or progress toward meeting it; no firm proposals have been brought forward by the Government to address that gap; and we have no guarantees that appropriate measures will be forthcoming any time soon, although I take at face value what the Minister has just said.
The Bill rightly ensures that the provision of safe, high-quality social housing will be integral to the function of the regulator’s role. There can be no more important task in respect of social housing—I think we are agreed on this point—than to ensure that buildings that are either covered in combustible material or riddled with other non-cladding safety defects are made safe. New clause 2 would ensure the regulator monitors progress to that end and reports to Government. I urge the Minister to rethink. If the Government are not minded to amend the Bill as new clause 2 seeks, I urge them to bring forward other proposals for monitoring this important element of the remediation drive in the near future.
I turn to new clause 3. In a similar way to how new clause 2 seeks to place additional requirements on the regulator in relation to its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, new clause 3 seeks to ensure that, in meeting its fundamental objective under the 2008 Act to support the provision of social housing that is sufficient to meet reasonable demands, the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the adequacy of social housing supply.
The problem to which this new clause relates is well known. While more people than ever are struggling to afford a secure place to live, nowhere near enough social homes are being built. Almost 1.2 million households in England are now languishing on a housing waiting list. The Green Paper that foreshadowed the Bill stated:
“Social housing remains central to our supply ambitions.”
Despite that, the Government are doing nowhere near enough to deliver the volume of social homes our country needs.
Not only are the Government failing to build the volume of social homes that we need, but by means of reduced grant funding, the introduction of the so-called affordable rent tenure, increased right-to-buy discounts and numerous other policy interventions, we would argue that they have actively engineered the decline of social housing over the past 12 years. The result is that not only were fewer than 6,000 social homes constructed last year but over 21,000 were sold or demolished—a net loss of 15,000 desperately needed genuinely affordable homes.
Bob Blackman
I agree with the shadow Minister that the provision of affordable social housing in this country is far too low. It has been far too low for far too long. That has been the case not just under this Government, but under successive Governments for more than 30 years.
The shadow Minister has put forward his case, and he quoted one report claiming that 145,000 units are required per year. The Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee and I have always taken the view that 90,000 units per year would be required just to get us back to where we should be. From that perspective, it is clear that there needs to be more investment in affordable social housing, and we need to get to a point where people have a place they can call home, a rent that they can afford, and the option to buy when their circumstances allow.
The new clauses seem to put extra burdens on the regulator, for example by requiring them to report on the amount of social housing there should be in this country. I do not think that is an appropriate role for the regulator. It is right that organisations, such as those the shadow Minister quoted—Shelter, Crisis, CIH and others—should be reporting and commenting to Government, but I do not think it is the role of the regulator to report to Government.
I think the role of the regulator is quite clearly to report on the condition of social housing. I hope as we go through the Bill—and I will challenge the Secretary of State on this particular issue—we will see some amendments that strengthen the role of the regulator to ensure that social housing providers are performing as they should be. That means providing a high-quality standard of accommodation. We have heard about what has happened in Rochdale, but the issue of the condition of property is not confined to Rochdale. It goes up and down the country.
We need to see dramatic improvements in the provision of not only the quantity of social housing, but the conditions within those units. It is a sheer scandal in this country that we are paying huge salaries to social housing providers who are pocketing the money while providing a very poor service for their tenants. We need to call them to account. I believe that comes through the role of the regulator. That is the way it should be. I hope we can see some strengthening of the Bill on that point through Government amendments, at least when we get to Report stage.
On safety defects, there is clearly an issue about data, performance and the funding of removing unsafe cladding and dealing with fire safety defects. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will know that I have been on this case for quite some time—since before Grenfell. One of the key issues here is about whether the regulator should be reporting on it, but frankly I think the regulator should be enforcing it. They should be making sure the providers actually do their job of providing safe accommodation for people.
While I recognise that the new clauses are well-intentioned, I do not think they hit the nub of where we need to be going. I hope the Government will come forward with some new clauses to strengthen the Bill when we get to Report stage, particularly in light of the scandal in Rochdale and the conditions people are facing up and down the country.
Siobhain McDonagh
Thank you, Sir Edward, for your generosity in calling me. I realise I registered quite late that I wanted to speak.
Why are we sitting here in this Bill Committee today? We are sitting here because, under the coalition Government’s bonfire of the quangos, we set fire to the housing inspectorate and the Audit Commission in the belief that no regulation of damp or mould growth in properties was required, that all the adjudicator had to do was look at the financial structure of housing associations, and that that would be enough. What a terrible error that has been.
In my constituency, the largest social housing provider is Clarion Housing Association. After an ITV news programme about some of its standards, it was referred to the regulator. The regulator’s decision was that it could not investigate because there was not a systemic problem. That is where we have got to. How many of us were distressed by Awaab Ishak’s death? How many of us know that we have plenty of social housing units in our constituencies with the same damp and mould growth problems? At the moment we have no form of regulation that can tackle that.
The adjudicator does not go out and look at properties or inspect procedures. The adjudicator is interested in the financial structures. I would never argue that we should not look at the financial viability of a housing association, but I also want to know what it does when it has problems of damp and mould growth. I want to know that a Government inspector goes out and sample-tests and looks at properties.
We would never accept an Ofsted that did not inspect schools or a Care Quality Commission that did not go in and inspect hospitals, care homes or local authority social services, but we have accepted that the regulator has no responsibility for going into social housing properties and inspecting their conditions.
When we look at reducing regulation, we must remember Awaab Ishak, and remember that we do not have a regulator in our country that would do anything about that.
Dehenna Davison
I will be brief and just say that I recognise the arguments made by the shadow Minister, but I hope he recognises the arguments that I made in my opening statement. I have made a commitment to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East that before Report we will sit down to discuss the issues further and make sure the regulator has the teeth it really needs.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Advisory panel
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 14, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—
“(2A) The Panel may provide information and advice to the Secretary of State about, or on matters connected with, the regulator’s functions and wider issues affecting the regulation of social housing (whether or not it is requested to do so by either the regulator or the Secretary of State).”
This amendment would enable the Panel to provide information and advice and to proactively raise issues affecting social housing regulation more generally directly to the Secretary of State.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 15, in clause 2, page 2, line 17, at end insert—
“(8) The Panel must be chaired by a tenant of social housing.
(9) The Chair is responsible for setting Panel meeting agendas.
(10) The majority of persons appointed to the panel must be tenants of social housing.”
This amendment would ensure that tenant representation on the advisory panel is mandatory and that tenants are able to influence effectively what information and advice is presented to the regulator in respect of issues affecting social housing regulation.
Matthew Pennycook
For all its technical complexity, the Bill is ultimately about those who live in social housing and overhauling regulation to ensure that they are treated fairly by landlords who are well run, responsive, transparent and accountable. In considering the detail of the Bill, we must never forget that the impetus for it was the deaths of 72 men, women and children in the early hours of 14 June 2017. Those 72 human lives were ended in an inferno fuelled by the highly combustible cladding system installed on the outside of the tower block in which they lived, despite the fact that tenants had repeatedly sounded the alarm about the building’s safety defects and the fact that warnings were going unheeded.
I have met and spoken to Grenfell United, as I assume the Minister and many other Members have. I once again pay tribute to them and the wider Grenfell community. I know that what the survivors and the bereaved are determined to achieve is not only justice, but lasting change in how social housing is regulated and the power that tenants themselves can exercise. We firmly believe that the empowerment of tenants must be at the heart of the Bill, and we believe that a key test of its robustness is whether it establishes mechanisms that will enable tenants to influence in practice the regulator’s approach to regulating standards; to shape any future changes to regulatory standards and codes of practice; and to proactively raise wider issues affecting social housing regulation and policy, not just with the regulator but with Ministers.
The Government ostensibly agree that tenants are at the heart of the Bill, and Ministers have repeatedly assured us that one of its primary objectives is to give social housing tenants a voice and ensure that it is listened to. Yet when it comes to providing ways in which tenant representatives can exert a measure of control over the work of the regulator, shape the future direction of the regulatory arrangements that the Bill establishes and proactively influence national regulation and policy so as to shape the services that tenants receive from their landlords, we feel that the Bill is somewhat lacking in ambition.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for making his case for amendments 14 and 15. Amendment 14 seeks to enable the advisory panel to provide information and advice and to raise issues affecting social housing regulation directly with the Secretary of State. The social housing White Paper made it clear that the purpose of the advisory panel was to provide independent and unbiased advice specific to the regulator on matters connected to regulation. Clearly, the views of tenants are central to that objective.
As the hon. Gentleman outlined, in parallel we also established the social housing quality resident panel, which will provide an opportunity for us to hear from tenants. The aim of the resident panel is to enable tenants to share their views directly with Government and Ministers on their approach to improving the quality of social housing, and on whether the Government’s interventions will deliver the changes that they want to see.
The resident panel is made up of 250 social housing residents from across the country and from diverse backgrounds. They met for the first time last week on 26 November, and will meet approximately monthly over the coming year, with opportunities for the agenda to be shaped by panel members. At that meeting, residents told the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), that the most important issues to them were how repairs are dealt with, how landlords are held to account and how complaints are handled by their landlords and the housing ombudsman. The Department’s resident panel and the regulated advisory panel have a specific role and remit to ensure that tenants’ views are properly represented to both Ministers and the regulator.
Amendment 15 seeks to require a social housing tenant to chair the advisory panel and have responsibility for setting the agenda that the panel considers. It also seeks to ensure that social housing tenants comprise the majority of panel members. We share the notion that it is vital that tenants’ voices are heard, but it is important that the advisory panel considers the full range of regulatory issues that the regulator has to tackle. That means that we need to allow a diverse collection of voices to share their knowledge and opinions with the regulator.
Consumer matters are rightly at the forefront of the Bill but, equally, working to resolve some of the economic issues should not be diminished. Legislating for a tenant to chair and set the agenda and requiring the majority of the panel members to be tenants would not support what we are trying to achieve with the advisory panel. I am concerned that being too prescriptive in legislation about how the advisory panel must operate may prevent the panel from having the flexibility to decide how it best operates. In practice, I expect that all members of the advisory panel, along with the regulator, will shape how it works and what it considers.
We are committed to ensuring that tenants can effectively engage with the Department and the regulator, and that tenant voices are at the heart of social housing regulation and policy, but we do not feel that amendments 14 and 15 are necessary to achieve that so I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw them.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that helpful response, and I take on board the concerns she raised about the amendments.
I am slightly concerned about the lack of what we would consider to be true tenant empowerment. The quality resident panel is important, but it only lasts a year, so how will we get ongoing tenant engagement with the work of the regulator to inform how it operates, to shape future regulation, which is part of its remit, and to raise future issues of concern to tenants nationally, in terms of social housing regulation and policy? We do not think the Bill allows for that, and in all honesty I cannot understand the Government’s objection to allowing the advisory panel to notify Ministers directly, rather than the regulator, in certain rare circumstances. As the Minister said, the panel is at present constituted by the regulator, which appoints its membership, and it can only provide views directly to the regulator. We think there are some circumstances in which it may need to do otherwise. I hope the Minister takes away those points.
Eddie Hughes
Although there might be some deliberation about this mechanism, there are several mechanisms through which resident organisations are able to engage with Ministers and the regulator. I am delighted to see representatives of Grenfell United in the Public Gallery. There is a regular opportunity to meet Ministers, although it is not prescriptive and perhaps not as frequent as many would like, but the Government are certainly determined to build on it.
Matthew Pennycook
We recognise that Ministers meet tenants and tenant representatives frequently. My concern is that if tenants on the advisory panel have an issue that they feel is sufficiently serious that they need to bring it to the attention of Ministers, rather than the regulator, they should not have to rely on attempting to get a meeting with Ministers. There should be a mechanism through which they can put serious issues on the desk of the Secretary of State or the Minister if they feel that they, as well as the regulator, need to know about them. That is the point we are trying to address with amendment 14.
On amendment 15, I understand the Minister’s concerns about being too prescriptive, but I urge the Government to go away and think again about the membership of the advisory panel. I appreciate fully the need to have a diverse panel, but as I read clause 2(4), there is nothing on the face of the Bill to prevent the Government from putting one tenant or tenant representative on the panel and leaving it at that. There is no minimum quota for tenants, and we want tenant voices to be properly represented.
Bob Blackman
The shadow Minister is making a good point. We want to empower tenants, but his proposal could have an unintended consequence. Supposing tenant representatives on the board cannot agree among themselves who will be the chair, the panel could meet, but obviously that would be a difficult situation. There may potentially be social tenants from various parts of the country, representing different organisations. It is therefore not appropriate to prescribe a chair on the face of the Bill; that would defeat the objective. It might well be that we could find some suitable wording about the number of representatives, but I do not think we should force the panel to have a particular individual or representative as the chair.
Matthew Pennycook
The point about obvious issues around tenant representation and selection is well made, although those issues exist for the quality residents panel and the 250 members it selects. They have existed every time we have tried to create a body that gives voice to residents, so I do not think they are insurmountable. I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman thinks a minimum level of tenant representation on the panel is a good thing, and I urge the Government to think again about that.
We ultimately want to achieve tenant empowerment on the advisory panel so that tenants can be confident that, when the advisory panel gives information and advice to the regulator about the new system of regulatory standards, its voice is properly heard and it can bring issues to the attention of Ministers if required. I hope the Government will take away the points we have made about the amendments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 2 makes it a requirement that the regulator will engage with a wide range of stakeholders, including tenants and landlords. It also sets out expectations about who should be represented on that panel. It is not just about the regulator asking a group of people for views once it has already made up its mind about what it wants to do. The panel is designed to be used to test and shape the regulator’s thinking. For example, we expect the regulator to engage the panel on the design and implementation of new consumer standards. The clause also empowers the panel to raise issues directly with the regulator that its members consider important. I hope the Committee will support the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Power to charge fees
Dehenna Davison
I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 4, page 3, line 40, leave out “follows” and insert
“set out in subsections (2) to (6)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 2.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 2.
Clause stand part.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 4 and Government amendments 1 and 2 deal with the regulator’s fee-charging powers. As we heard from a number of hon. Members on Second Reading, the Regulator of Social Housing must be provided with the necessary funding to enable it to deliver the outcomes the Bill is designed to achieve.
Once the new consumer regime is implemented, the regulator will see substantial growth in its regulatory activity, which means its costs will increase significantly. It is Government policy to maximise the recovery of costs of arm’s length bodies, so clause 4 will refine the existing fee-charging power to allow for the cost of some additional functions to be recovered, and to charge fees that cover costs of activities that may not be connected to the specific fee payer, such as the cost of investigation and enforcement. Any significant changes to the design of the regime will be consulted upon and require ministerial approval.
Government amendments 1 and 2 also address the regulator’s fee-charging powers. The amendments remove specific provision allowing the regulator to charge following the completion of inspections, if authorised by the Secretary of State by order. The existence of that special provision relating to fees for inspections is no longer necessary given the changes we are making to the regulator’s general power to charge fees. That power will now allow it to cover the cost of inspections in its fees for initial and continued registration.
Leaving the provision in legislation erroneously risks causing confusion and casting doubt on the regulator’s ability to set fees to cover inspections as part of its general fee-setting power. As such, the change serves to ensure that there is greater clarity and consistency in this legislation.
Clause 4 establishes the parameters to the regulator’s fee-charging powers and makes clear that it can charge the sector for costs that may be unconnected to the specific fee payer. Government amendments 1 and 2 support clause 4 by delivering a technical change that will ensure there is no confusion over the powers available to the regulator to deliver maximum cost recovery. On that basis, I commend the clause to the Committee and beg to move the amendments.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that explanation of Government amendments 1 and 2. As she makes clear, clause 4 amends section 117 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to clarify the extent of the regulator’s fee-charging powers. New subsection (4A) adds to the 2008 Act and makes it clear that the regulator has the power to recover the cost of activities it does not currently charge social housing providers for.
If I understood the Minister correctly, Government amendment 2 revises section 202 of the 2008 Act because the powers in new subsection (4A) are sufficiently broad to cover charging providers fees for inspections. In short, as I hope she agrees, this is just a tidying-up exercise, the rationale for which is that the power is being omitted from section 202, concerning inspections only, because it more properly fits within section 117, concerning fees generally, to ensure that references to fee charging are all in one place in the 2008 Act. If that is the case, and amendment 2 in no way prevents the regulator from charging fees for inspections, we take no issue with it, because it is important that the regulator is able to charge fees to cover the significant costs involved in overseeing the comprehensive and rigorous Ofsted-style inspections regime that the Bill introduces.
The amendment raises wider issues relating to the resourcing of the regulator. Since the Bill’s publication, we have consistently expressed concern about the very real risk that the regulator will struggle to discharge its new functions and that it will not be adequately resourced to perform its enhanced role, in particular in relation to inspections. Prior to the Bill’s publication there were already concerns, expressed by the Select Committee and others, as to whether the regulator had the resourcing, skills and capacity to continue to regulate economic standards adequately, given the complex financial and corporate structures proliferating in the sector.
The new consumer regulatory regime will impose significant burdens on the regulator. The Minister stated on Second Reading that the Government are
“firmly committed to ensuring that the regulator has the resources that it needs not only to deliver the new consumer regulation regime but to ensure that it continues to regulate its economic objectives effectively.”—[Official Report, 7 November 2022; Vol. 722, c. 83.]
She also suggested that the Government were potentially minded to introduce changes to the fee regime to ensure that the regulator is funded appropriately. We accept that the Government have made limited additional funding available this financial year to support the new regime, but we are concerned that there may still be a resourcing challenge for the regulator. I would welcome any further assurances from the Minister that the regulator will have all the resources it needs to discharge the enhanced functions that the Bill requires of it.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising the question of resourcing. We touched on this on Second Reading, as he highlighted. He is right that in this financial year we are providing £4.8 million to aid the regulator in its vital work, but this is why it is so important that we get the fee charging regime right—to ensure that the regulator is properly resourced. As we have discussed today, on Second Reading and in the other place, the regulator needs the teeth to be able to do its job, and a huge part of that is resourcing. He is right that, effectively, we are tidying the legislation up to make it a bit neater and ensure further clarity, so I hope he will support these amendments.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Amendment made: 2, in clause 4, page 4, line 16, at end insert—
‘(7) In section 202 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (inspections: supplemental) omit subsections (4) to (7).’—(Dehenna Davison.)
This amendment repeals the provisions of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 which provide specific powers to enable the regulator to charge registered providers of social housing fees for inspections.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5
Relationship between regulator and housing ombudsman
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
I will be brief, but there is an issue that we want to highlight in relation to clause 5, which is about the relationship between the regulator and housing ombudsman. Clause 5 amends the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 and the Housing Act 1996 to add measures on the relationship between the two bodies, so that they can exchange information quickly and effectively to provide better protection for tenants, all of which is entirely to the good and uncontroversial. However, consideration of the clause provides me with an opportunity to seek clarification from the Minister about the precise role of each body in the reformed regulatory regime that the Bill establishes.
Taken at face value, the role of each body is clearly delineated: the regulator regulates registered providers in England, while the housing ombudsman seeks to resolve complaints from individual residents about their registered provider. The regulator operates on a top-down basis, and the housing ombudsman operates on a bottom-up basis. However, when one considers how the reformed regulatory regime will operate in practice, things start to appear somewhat more complicated.
First, if my reading of the Bill is correct, the regulator appears to be able to intervene in individual complaints. Clause 31, for example, enables the regulator to arrange for an authorised person to take emergency remedial action in respect of individual premises following completion of a survey. Presumably, it is therefore necessary for the regulator to receive a complaint from a tenant who fears they are at risk of an imminent serious health and safety risk. Otherwise, how could the regulator order the necessary survey of a given premises? It may be that that is not the case, and it will be for the ombudsman to refer an individual complaint to the regulator to allow them to make use of the provisions in clause 31; if that is the case, it is not clear from the Bill.
Secondly, following revisions to the housing ombudsman scheme enacted in September 2020, the ombudsman has a responsibility to publish a complaint handling code, enjoys a new power to issue complaint handling failure orders that can relate to a landlord’s overall complaint-handling policy and, crucially, has the ability to investigate beyond an initial complaint to establish whether evidence might indicate a systemic failing by a registered provider. It may be that the ombudsman can address such systemic failings on the part of registered providers on the basis of suggested changes to their policies only with the regulator responsible for exploring whether changes to their systems are necessary, but again that is not immediately clear in the Bill.
Eddie Hughes
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but it is based on the premise that these bodies operate in a completely siloed fashion. The relationship between them is a fluid one; they speak regularly and consider complaints and points that have been raised, which come to them from either direction. They work in a collaborative fashion and are then able to identify who should best proceed with a particular case. Obviously, it is governed by a memorandum of understanding, but it is a much more fluid and collaborative arrangement than that.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman, and I fully understand his point. I met with senior staff from the housing ombudsman yesterday, and we were talking precisely about the ways in which the respective roles operate and how they could be clarified. What these examples seek to illustrate is that there is still an obvious risk of overlap and duplication of roles in respect of these two bodies. One could argue, as the hon. Gentleman just has, that those issues can be resolved by means of updating the non-statutory memorandum of understanding that already sets out the functions of both organisations and how they work together, but that throws up two distinct issues in and of itself.
First, is it appropriate for us to leave these matters to the two bodies themselves to resolve, rather than clarifying on the face of the Bill the precise role of each body in the new regulatory regime, so as to avoid the duplication of functions and potential gaps in coverage—even if only in the short term, before they update that memorandum of understanding to reflect the new regulatory system of proactive consumer regulation?
Secondly, I am sure that hon. Members have been contacted by tenants who are aware that the Bill is progressing through the House. The expectations around the Bill are such that, after it receives Royal Assent, tenants who feel that they have not secured appropriate redress by means of a standard complaint to their landlord and believe that their grievance might be systemic in nature will understandably be uncertain about whether they should approach the ombudsman or the regulator with their complaint. I appreciate that the Department is alive to the risk, has produced guidance in the form of a fact sheet and is apparently delivering a communications campaign to tenants so that they know where to go and are well informed but, without greater clarity prior to Royal Assent about the precise roles of each body in the regime established by the Bill, I fear that neither will be sufficient to prevent a large degree of confusion. When debating this matter in the other place, Baroness Scott of Bybrook conceded that fears about confusion of the kind that I alluded to are legitimate, and that greater clarity is required as a result; yet, despite her promise to take the matter back to the Department, the Government are not amending the Bill to provide greater clarity or committing to take any further concrete steps—that I am aware of, at least—to ensure that confusion will be avoided.
As Shelter and others have argued, it is essential that the roles of the regulator and the housing ombudsman are clearly defined, that tenants and tenant groups understand the appropriate way to make complaints and that any complaints process or system is easy to use, accessible and effective. I would be grateful if the Minister provided greater clarity today and, if not today, in writing. I hope that, in general terms, she will assure me that the issues that I have highlighted will be both considered and acted on by the Department before the Bill receives Royal Assent.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising his concerns and giving me the opportunity to provide some clarity. We will take it from the experience of one particular tenant, if we may. If a tenant has a complaint, they should first go to their landlord but, if that complaint cannot be resolved between tenants and the landlord, it can be escalated to the housing ombudsman to investigate individual complaints from tenants. If the ombudsman’s investigation finds instances of maladministration on the part of the landlord, the ombudsman can issue orders to that landlord to put things right for the complainant. That can include requiring the landlord to pay compensation to the complainant or to undertake repairs.
If an investigation raises a potential breach of a regulatory standard or there is evidence of systemic failure by the landlord, the ombudsman can refer the matter to the regulator. In situations where the regulator has concerns that the provider is failing to maintain the premises in accordance with the regulatory standards, it can conduct a survey and, following the implementation of this Bill, arrange for emergency repairs to remediate the issue in cases where there is a risk of serious harm to tenants that is not being addressed by the landlord.
Matthew Pennycook
That is useful clarification. If I have correctly understood what the Minister is saying, emergency remedial action under clause 31 of the Bill stems, in the first instance, from a referral from the ombudsman. Let us think about that process in detail. To get to the ombudsman, a tenant would have to exhaust all stages of their resident provider’s internal complaints process, which is three stages in most cases. It takes about a year to get through it. They would then have to go to the ombudsman, who has a huge backlog. Clause 31 is about emergency remedial action that poses an imminent threat to health and safety. I urge the Government to think again about how, in particular, clause 31 operates because tenants will need to give notice to the regulator about specific clause 31 failures far quicker than the process she has just described.
Siobhain McDonagh
The situation gets even more complicated when a tenant exasperatedly says, “I want to go to a lawyer” and then the whole thing closes down.
Matthew Pennycook
We are testing the patience of Sir Edward and the rules, but the point my hon. Friend highlights is a genuine one about the complication of legal matters and whether tenants abandon complaints at whatever point, which I hope adds to the weight of the point that I have just made. It is not immediately clear, and we have to be clear with, most importantly, tenants once this Bill is in force about where they go and how they can seek redress under the provisions of the Bill as quickly as they need to. As I said, in the case of clause 31, the process the Minister has described does not seem like it is fast enough to ensure that emergency remedial action of the kind provided for by clause 31 will happen. I hope the Government will take this and those other points away.
Dehenna Davison
Again, I am grateful to the shadow Minister and to the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden. On the shadow Minister’s point about communications ensuring that tenants know where to go and how this process works, we have been working with organisations that represent landlords, social housing residents and the housing ombudsman service. We delivered communications and marketing campaigns in 2021 and this year to ensure that social housing residents were aware of how to make a complaint and how to seek redress where appropriate. We are putting in the work through communications to ensure that tenants understand the process, but I have heard his points on timeliness and I will endeavour to take that away.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 6 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Appointment of health and safety lead by registered provider
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
Clause 10 is not contentious, and we broadly welcome it, but I would appreciate some clarification from the Minister on a specific issue arising from it. At present, proposed new section 126B ensures that
“The functions of the health and safety lead”
are to
“monitor the provider’s compliance with health and safety requirements”
and to notify the provider’s responsible body of any material risk to or failures of compliance, and to advise on steps to ensure the provider addresses them.
As Ministers may be aware, the Local Government Association, among others, has inquired what—if any—channels of communication or reporting mechanisms will exist between the health and safety leads of registered providers and the regulator itself. The LGA also highlighted the obvious need for sufficient new burdens funding in the case of local authority landlords. Will the Minister provide answers today or in writing to the following questions? First, did the Government intend to establish any direct permanent relationship between the regulator and RP health and safety leads? Secondly, what is the rationale for not requiring health and safety leads to report any material risks or failures of compliance directly to the regulator, as well as the responsible body, as a matter of course? Thirdly, can the Minister guarantee that the Government will make sufficient new burdens funding available to local authorities to fully implement the provisions in the clause?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow up in writing with a bit more clarity and specific detail on the questions the shadow Minister has raised.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
Electrical safety standards
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
We welcome the Government’s decision, in response to concerns raised during the passage of the Building Safety Act 2022, to carry out a consultation on the introduction of mandatory checks on electrical installations for social housing at least once every five years and to include measures within this Bill to partially implement such checks—only partially, because the section of the Housing and Planning Act 2016 that this clause seeks to amend is concerned with properties let by landlords, not owner-occupier leaseholders. That is an important distinction, for reasons I will explain.
As we know, there is currently no legal requirement in England for social landlords or leaseholders to undertake electrical safety checks of their dwellings. The situation is distinct from that in the private rented sector, where the Housing and Planning Act introduced mandatory safety checks on electrical installations at least once every five years.
We know that fires in numerous tower blocks, including Grenfell, Shepherd’s Court, and Lakanal House, were caused by electricity. Home Office fire data shows a consistently high level of accidental electrical fires in high-rise buildings with 10 or more flats. Campaign groups such as Electrical Safety First have been at pains to stress that those buildings were mixed-tenure buildings containing an assortment of owner-occupier leasehold and social rented units and that there is therefore a case, given that the fire safety of a building depends on the safety of all the units within it, for ensuring parity in electrical safety standards across all tenures in high-rise residential blocks.
The Government’s own consultation on this issue noted that the National Federation of ALMOs supported introducing electrical safety requirements for owner-occupiers in mixed-tenure blocks and highlighted that properties being considered by authorities for London’s right to buy-back programme often have electrical installations that are
“in a state of significant disrepair.”
Given that we know that many high-rise social housing blocks contain owner-occupied flats owned on a leasehold basis, it surely cannot be right that a leaseholder living next door to a social renter will not have their electrical installations mandated to be checked every five years. To put it another way, what good is having the electrical installations of two thirds of a building checked every five years if the other third is not? The risk of a potentially life-threatening fire obviously does not discriminate by tenure.
Bob Blackman
This is a very significant point, particularly with what happened at Grenfell. We should reflect on that carefully. Who does the hon. Gentleman suggest should carry out the inspections and how would they be enforced? One of the problems that is clearly still relevant is people buying second-hand white goods that are not safety checked, which could then be faulty and cause electrical fires. In his research, has the hon. Member come up with any proposals as to how this measure could be implemented and work could be undertaken?
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point—it is a point well made. I do not have a comprehensive answer to hand. There are provisions in this clause that apply to mandatory electrical safety checks for social rented properties. There are similar requirements in place for the private rented sector. My instinct is that it would seem obvious that those could be applied to the owner-occupier sector in a way that the provisions in the clause perhaps could not be. Whatever way we cut it, what we want to see are mandatory checks on all electrical installations in all units in high-rise buildings, because, as I said, fire does not discriminate between tenure. I hope the Minister will take the points away for further consideration.
Dehenna Davison
The shadow Minister is right to highlight the consultation, which concluded in August. It included a call for evidence seeking views on whether leasehold properties in mixed tenure social housing blocks should have mandatory five-year checks. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East was right to say that we need to get this mechanism right to ensure that people living in mixed-use blocks are protected. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his pragmatism on this point. We are still assessing the responses to the consultation, so it is a bit too early to say what the outcome will be and we do not wish to pre-empt it. However, we will announce further details as the work progresses, and I will endeavour to keep the shadow Minister informed.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Clauses 15 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Julie Marson.)
Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill (Seventh sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2022
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 View all Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2022 - (29 Nov 2022)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 8 / Noes: 2 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 2 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
I beg to move amendment 70, in clause 16, page 18, line 25, at end insert—
“(1A) Before the power in subsection (1) may be exercised, the relevant national authority must publish a written statement on any societal and economic changes relevant to the intended modifications.”
Brendan O’Hara
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Gary, for our final day of scrutiny of the Bill. The amendment was tabled in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes. It will be a relief to the Committee that I will be as brief as I can, as I know we have an awful lot to get through.
Clause 16 allows a relevant national authority to make modifications to secondary legislation that it considers appropriate, taking into account
“changes in technology, or…scientific understanding.”
We do not disagree with that. Our amendment simply seeks to widen the scope of the clause by allowing relevant national authorities not just to consider changes in technology and developments in scientific understanding, but to take into account societal and economic changes that may be pertinent when making modifications to retained EU law.
It is the narrowness of the clause that concerns us the most. It has been highlighted as a potential problem by the Law Society of Scotland, which in its excellent briefing paper suggested widening the scope to reflect other factors and include economic or societal changes. It seems eminently sensible to include factors that go beyond science and technology. Whether we like it or not, things happen in society that we cannot reasonably predict. It would therefore be unwise for the legislation to be so completely straitjacketed that we could not react appropriately to unpredicted societal events.
Similarly, giving relevant national authorities the ability to pivot when changes to the economic circumstances dictate also seems logical. Imagine we had been examining the Bill before the summer, and I had tabled an amendment that would have allowed relevant national authorities the flexibility to consider changes in economic circumstances when considering retained EU law. Had I based my argument around a Conservative Prime Minister resigning and forcing a lengthy leadership election, and the arrival of a new Prime Minister who promptly tanked the economy and then resigned six weeks later, everyone on the Government Benches would have howled with derision, but that is precisely what happened.
As much as we like to think we know what is around the corner in terms of society and the economy, the truth is that we simply do not. That is why, again in the spirit of trying to be helpful and improve what is a thoroughly dreadful piece of legislation, I commend amendment 70 to the Government.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Gary. I was sorry to read that you may not be seeking re-election. I know that social media is not always truthful on such things, but what I read appeared to be legitimate, and I will be sorry to see you go. I welcome the Minister in the Jack Grealish role, coming in late in the day to retrieve a seemingly lost position for the Government.
I understand that we are dealing with clause 16 stand part as well as amendment 70. I thank the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute for moving the amendment, which is very similar to some of ours. It will be no surprise that we are sympathetic to and supportive of it, but to avoid repeating what we have said previously I will try to keep my statements brief. Government Members will be tired of hearing this, but those who are tired of scrutiny are tired of democracy itself, so I will yet again refer to the lack of scrutiny and consultation that are the hallmarks of the Bill.
Amendment 70 offers a means to address that problem in the specific and possibly limited circumstances in which clause 16 will apply. We know how often the Government like to use the phrase “specific and limited circumstances”. The amendment contains the guiding principle of our new clause 9, which was previously debated: the Government and relevant national authorities need to address the impact of changes made by the use of the Bill’s powers. Having Ministers of the Crown produce written statements about intended modifications will ensure not only that the societal and economic impacts of changes are considered, but that they are justified, which, as we have discussed, ought to provide a greater level of accountability. Despite the fact that the amendment could benefit from extra conditions—for example, mandating a programme of consultation with relevant stakeholders—it serves the purpose of demanding greater scrutiny. Given that the Government rejected our new clause, which previously requested that, I suspect we will not find favour with this one.
The Minister for Climate (Graham Stuart)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Gary.
I thank the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute for tabling the amendment, but I urge the Committee to reject it. The power under clause 16 is intended as an updating power to make modifications to retained EU law that take account of a change in technology or developments in scientific understanding. The scope of that power has been deliberately restricted so that it can only be exercised to bring about such modifications.
It is critical that that power operates in that manner to ensure that legislation that sits on the UK’s statute book is able to keep pace with scientific and technological developments, so that we continue to uphold our high standards as well as ensure laws remain tailored to best suit the UK’s needs. Without that power, it would take a significant amount of parliamentary time for the Government to bring forward bespoke proposals and consider each amendment on a sector by sector basis.
I consider the requirement for Ministers to produce a written ministerial statement on the societal and economic changes relevant to the proposed changes under the clause to be neither relevant nor appropriate. The UK Government are committed to the appraisal of any regulatory changes relating to retained EU law, and the nature of that appraisal will depend on the types of changes that Departments make and the expected significance of their impact. We assess that current scrutiny procedure for legislation made under the clause is sufficient. Further scrutiny would be inappropriate for that type of power and would place additional pressure on parliamentary time. The power is circumscribed and, in answer to an earlier question, it is for Ministers to make those decisions. Further scrutiny could hinder the UK’s ability to keep pace with new scientific and technological developments, and I am sure that no member of the Committee would want that.
Justin Madders
Will there be a standard threshold across Departments to trigger when Ministers may use the power? If so, can the Minister share it with us?
Graham Stuart
In so far as I understood the hon. Gentleman’s question, the powers are circumscribed. They are designed to deliver the technical changes necessary and are certainly not meant to lead to substantive changes in policy. That would absolutely not be within the scope of the clause.
On that basis, I ask the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute to withdraw his amendment.
Brendan O’Hara
I thank the Minister for his response. I also thank the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston for his support. I still do not quite understand why the Government have been so deliberately restrictive in the scope of clause 16. In common with much of the Bill, the Government’s complete refusal to accept any reasonable amendments is worrying. The amendment is not party political, but arose directly from a suggestion from the Law Society of Scotland. I will not pursue it to a vote, however, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 17
Power to remove or reduce burdens
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Justin Madders
The clause relates to legislative reform orders under the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006. There are certainly positives associated with the mechanisms within which those orders operate.
The procedure for enacting draft Bills, in common with the terms of new clauses we have tabled, would include requirements for consultation, with further time for parliamentary consideration. When we are talking about between 2,400 and 3,800 laws, we think that is a reasonable proposal. That requirement would apply to instruments introduced under both the negative and the affirmative procedure, with the super-affirmative procedure further requiring 60 days for consideration, and a requirement on Ministers to have regard to recommendations to amend the draft order. Even if Ministers choose to press ahead with the unamended order, they must still lay a report before the House detailing the representations made and the proposed revisions. Although these measures do not go quite as far as our proposed new clauses, if they were used across the board for non-deregulatory purposes, they would be far more preferable to the use of the standard procedures currently in the Bill.
As Jack Williams pointed out in evidence a couple of weeks ago, the main concern is that using any of the mechanisms contained in the 2006 Act will put in place completely unrealistic time constraints, if they were used on all regulations and pieces of legislation on the EU dashboard. We have discussed at length why we think the 2023 sunset is unrealistic. Given that the time restrictions we face are well known, why does the clause remain in the Bill? Are there plans to use this power? Will the Minister provide us with some examples of where he thinks it might be appropriate to use this procedure or where it is already intended to be used? How will the problem of the clear six to eight months we will have once the Bill is passed to deal with all the regulations be dealt with?
The Government have promised to abide by all the stages of consultation and reporting in the Bill. It seems to me that it would therefore be a challenge to deal with this in the timeframe we have. Will the Minister tell us what criteria will be used when deciding to use this procedure? I presume some consideration was given as to when it might be appropriate to use it before it was inserted into the Bill. If Ministers choose not to use this power, there is nothing that we as parliamentarians can do about it. That is the nub of it.
Looking at 2016 Government guidance on legislative reform orders, it was noted that it can take some 10 to 14 months from the start of a consultation before a legislative reform order becomes law and reaches the statute book. I think we are all conscious of the fact that, even in the unlikely event that there is a smooth passage of this Bill through the Lords, it will be in force at the lower end of that timescale, if not far below it. I wonder if the Minister can tell us whether there is any intention to use the powers under the clause and, if so, in which circumstance they might be operative.
Graham Stuart
Clause 17 amends the LRRA 2006 explicitly to include any retained direct EU legislation in its definition of legislation. This amendment confirms that the delegated powers existing in the framework for legislative reform orders extend to retained direct EU legislation, and enable it to be amended within the current procedures and scope of the LRO process. There is no reason to exempt this category of legislation from the LRO process. It is a pretty innocuous technical change, and I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 17 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 18
Abolition of business impact target
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
I will be brief, as we have many clauses to get through. Clause 18 abolishes the business impact target in the annual report that the Conservative Government themselves introduced in 2015. Perhaps the Minister could explain the rationale behind the change. Have the Government finally caught up with the pointlessness of this exercise, which has piled unnecessary work and bureaucracy on civil servants over the past seven years? It would be helpful to hear the Minister’s explanation for the change.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
My apologies for being late for the start of the sitting, Sir Gary.
About eight years ago, I bought myself a car. For a long time, the car did pretty much what I wanted it to do, but now it is showing its age and is not really behaving the way I would like, and I am wondering whether it is worth keeping. It would be foolhardy for me to get rid of my car when I have no idea what kind of car I want to replace it with, because I would leave myself open to the possibility either that I am without a car for a lot longer than I expected to be or that a replacement car is much more difficult and expensive to acquire. That is the position the Government want to put us in with this clause.
Graham Stuart
Having left the EU, the UK has the regulatory freedom to ensure that all regulations are designed with UK interests front and centre. To seize the opportunities that come with this freedom, it is important that the Government’s framework for scrutinising regulation—the better regulation framework—is reformed. As set out in “The benefits of Brexit”, we are reforming the system to ensure that we regulate only where necessary. When regulation is needed, it should be designed and implemented in a way that minimises burdens on businesses and households, thereby driving competition, innovation and, ultimately, growth.
The abolition of the business impact target will support the delivery of the reforms by reducing what is currently a disproportionate focus on direct costs to business and allowing—I hope the whole Committee will agree—a more holistic appraisal of the impacts. By increasing the early scrutiny of the flow of new regulation and improving the existing stock of regulation undertaken through the use of powers elsewhere in the Bill, the new system will support the Government’s growth ambitions.
Peter Grant
The Minister has great faith in the new system, but none of us can have any faith in it because we have not seen it. When can we expect to see the intended replacement for the relevant sections of the 2015 Act?
Graham Stuart
As I said, we expect the reforms to the better regulation framework to set a higher bar for the introduction of regulation and to help to reduce the flow. On the precise timing of when that will be, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman, unless I am suitably refreshed right now. As I say, this is a more proportionate approach, which I think the whole Committee will support. I therefore recommend that the clause stand part of the Bill.
Peter Grant
On the basis of the Minister’s answer, I assure him that we will come back to him in due course and tell him when we are prepared to support clause 18, but we are not prepared to support it yet.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Alex Sobel
We have already debated how the Bill grants Ministers sweeping powers; we now come to clause 19, which looks like it literally and explicitly allows Ministers to do anything they want. The Minister needs to explain what the Government think the powers are going to be used for, specifically in relation to EU regulations.
On the face of it, clause 19 would allow Ministers to make the case for anything at all, provided only that they consider it appropriate and in consequence of the Act. It is entirely left up to Ministers themselves to define “appropriate” and “in consequence”. I would like the Minister to give the Committee further clarification of what “appropriate” and “in consequence” really mean—or perhaps he does not yet know.
It is noteworthy that the powers include modifications to any Act of Parliament—including this legislation. The powers are so sweeping that it is difficult to understand why the Government cannot better define the powers they are giving themselves in the clause.
Peter Grant
First, I have a concern similar to the hon. Gentleman’s. It is the same concern that the SNP has expressed repeatedly throughout the progress of this Bill and many others. If the Bill does not just give any Minister the power to do whatever they like, will the Minister explain what clause 19 does not allow them to do? I always think it is interesting that when they give powers to Ministers, the Government put it into legislation that the Minister can do only what they consider appropriate. It is almost as if they do not trust their own Ministers not to do things that are considered completely inappropriate—although, having seen the actions of some Ministers over the past few years, I completely understand why they put that restriction in.
Secondly, is there a legal definition of what is actually meant by the words
“in consequence of this Act”?
If there is not, we could see regulations made under clause 19 being challenged in court, with the case hanging on whether the Minister’s decision was in consequence of this Act. A phrase as woolly as that is going to be a field day for lawyers. It is going to end up with the Government, and potentially businesses, being tied up in exactly the kind of legal uncertainty that the Government claim they are trying to get rid of by the passing the Bill. Will the Minister clarify those two points, with particular regard to the legal interpretation?
Graham Stuart
Clause 19 establishes a power to make consequential provision. It is necessary to enable the UK Government to make appropriate provision in consequence of the Bill. That includes the ability to modify any enactment, including provisions in the Bill. The power in the clause is exercisable by a Minister of the Crown and can be used to make regulations by statutory instrument.
You might not know it from listening to the debate, Sir Gary, but the inclusion of such a power is standard practice for Bills in respect of which minor additional changes to legislation may be necessary as a consequence of the changes brought forward by the Bill. Consequential amendments to legislation may be necessary to ensure that the UK statute book continues to function effectively. It is therefore appropriate that the power be included in the Bill to enable UK Government to deal with consequential amendments—and strictly consequential amendments.
The consequential power is subject to the negative procedure. If the power is used to amend primary legislation, it will be subject to the draft affirmative procedure to ensure the sufficient level of scrutiny. It is in fact entirely appropriate and proportionate.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 19 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 20
Regulations: general
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 64, to clause 20, page 20, line 13, at end insert—
“(1A) A Minister of the Crown may not include in regulations under this Act any provision which is within the devolved competence of any devolved authority as defined in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.
Brendan O’Hara
The amendment was tabled in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes and takes us back to a recurring theme of this Bill Committee—namely, the incursion by the UK Government into areas that are, and have been since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament more than 20 years ago, wholly devolved.
I assure Members that before today is out they will have heard a great deal more about the power grab that is happening and how the Bill and its partner, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, are systematically undermining the devolution settlement and stripping powers from our Parliament. The amendment would simply protect the integrity of the devolution settlement by preventing a UK Minister from revoking any piece of retained EU law that currently sits within the competency of the Scottish Government, as defined in paragraph 2 of schedule 2.
The Union is hanging by a thread. The polls increasingly show a pro-independence majority, and among young voters in particular that majority is substantial and growing. We have heard lots of talk about the partnership of equals and how Scotland has an integral place in this so-called precious Union; those may be nice words and easy for politicians to say, but the problem is that fewer and fewer Scots believe it any longer. Not only have we been dragged out of the European Union in the face of an overwhelming desire to remain a member, but in the past weeks we have discovered that this is not a voluntary Union after all. We cannot decide our constitutional future without the permission of this place. Now, with this Bill, coupled with the insidious United Kingdom Internal Market Act, we have to sit and watch the powers of our Parliament being eroded and our democracy being dismantled.
I challenge the Government to prove me wrong and show the people of Scotland that this place is no threat to our Parliament and our democracy by accepting amendment 64 and allowing our Government to act according to the mandate given to them in 2007, 2011, 2016 and, again, in 2021. That mandate is to keep our regulations in lockstep with the European Union if that is what we choose to do.
Alex Sobel
I shall speak briefly to schedule 2. The need for the Government to act with devolved authorities when provisions are outside the devolution settlement makes a lot of sense. We are currently in a situation in Northern Ireland in which there is no Executive, the Assembly is not functioning and the Northern Ireland protocol, which is hugely affected by the Bill, is effectively broken. The schedule 2 powers will, in the end, as things stand—they do not look like they are going to change in the near future—be enacted by a UK Minister of the Crown rather than by the devolved authority, whether with or without a Minister. I note that that is made explicit. So we have a situation in which, although the Bill cannot have any impact on what happens regarding the Executive, there is a mismatch between what is happening de facto in Northern Ireland and de jure in the Bill. That creates a dichotomy, so will the Minister tell us how he thinks that will resolve itself, considering that a new Executive is nowhere in sight?
Peter Grant
Following the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute, the existence of schedule 2 specifically tells us everything we need to know about the nature of what is sometimes claimed to be democracy in this place. There is an explicit assumption in the schedule that Ministers in this place have the right to directly hold to account the democratically elected national Parliaments of the United Kingdom. That is not devolution; that is colonialism. It is not democracy; it is elected dictatorship. I appreciate that what is stated in schedule 2 is simply a restatement of the assumption that has run through this place for the past 300-plus years, yet it is a false assumption. It is an assumption that ultimate sovereignty by gift of God resides with an unelected individual who then passes down that sovereignty to a semi-elected Prime Minister.
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
If the SNP decides to join the EU, is that not exactly what would be being joined?
Peter Grant
I think the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that is not the case. The European Union is about sharing and pooling sovereignty; there is no shared or pooled sovereignty within this Union. There is absolute sovereignty exerted, in effect, by one individual. One individual was able to end the careers of 40 Conservative MPs in 2019, just because they disagreed with him. That is how powerful one individual in this place can be. No individual in the European Union would have that authority against the will of national Parliaments and national Governments. My final response to the hon. Member is that he might think it is in Scotland’s interests to leave the European Union but, with the greatest respect, it has nothing to do with him. It is—it should be—a choice for the people of Scotland—
Peter Grant
It is also for the people of Scotland to decide what restrictions are put on the actions of their national Parliament and national Government, as it is for the people of Wales and of Northern Ireland. The inclusion of the schedule is another example of the rights of those three devolved nations being usurped by a state that claims to have the absolute right of sovereignty over them—but it does not have that absolute right, and, quite soon, it is going to discover, to its cost, that it never had that right.
Graham Stuart
I urge the Committee to reject the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute. It would prevent UK Ministers from making provisions within the competence of any devolved authority in respect of any of the powers in the Bill. As Members will be aware, the UK Government are committed to respecting the devolution settlements and the Sewel convention. The territorial extent of the Bill is UK-wide, and it should take effect UK-wide so that the benefits of Brexit can be seized across all four nations of the UK.
Conferring the powers concurrently ensures that the UK Government are able to legislate on behalf of a devolved Government who do not intend to take a different policy position. That will ensure that the most efficient and appropriate approach to the reform of retained EU law can be taken in every situation. Because of the nature of retained EU law, the edges of where UK Government competence ends and devolved competence begins are not always absolutely clear, so it is important that UK Ministers are able to make provision in areas of devolved competence to ensure that nothing important falls between the areas of reserved and devolved competence.
When using the powers in the Bill, we will use the appropriate mechanisms, such as common frameworks, to engage with devolved Governments, enable us to take account of the wider context and allow for joined-up decision making across the UK. The idea that we are riding roughshod over the devolution settlement is incorrect.
The hon. Member for Leeds North West mentioned Northern Ireland. The powers in the Bill are concurrent partly so that we can work with the Northern Ireland Executive—when there is one—to ensure that the Northern Ireland REUL required to operate the withdrawal agreement and the NIP is preserved.
I think I have answered most of the points that were made—I hope so, anyway—so I ask the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Brendan O’Hara
Over the course of today, I will give the Government numerous opportunities to show that they respect the devolution settlement and that they are not intent on usurping powers from our Parliament. Given their past record, I had no expectation that they would accept amendment 64, but I never wanted it to be said, in future, that they did not understand what they were doing, or that it was somehow accidental. The Minister said that it is not clear what is devolved and what is reserved. It is absolutely clear: it is in the Scotland Act 1998, which says clearly that if it is not reserved, it is devolved. We will vote against schedule 2, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Question put, That the schedule be the Second schedule to the Bill.
Graham Stuart
I beg to move amendment 1, in schedule 3, page 30, line 5, leave out paragraph 2 and insert—
“2 (1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies to a statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act which is subject to a procedure before Parliament for the approval of the instrument in draft before it is made.
(2) The statutory instrument may also include regulations under this Act or another enactment which are made by statutory instrument which is not subject to the procedure mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) (whether or not it is subject to any other procedure before Parliament).
(3) Where regulations are included as mentioned in sub-paragraph (2), the statutory instrument is subject to the procedure mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) (and is not subject to any other procedure before Parliament).
(4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in relation to a statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act which is subject to a procedure before Senedd Cymru as they apply in relation to a statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act which is subject to a procedure before Parliament, but as if references to Parliament were references to the Senedd.
(5) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in relation to a statutory rule as they apply in relation to a statutory instrument but as if references to Parliament were references to the Northern Ireland Assembly.
(6) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in relation to a statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act which is subject to a procedure before a devolved legislature as well as a procedure before Parliament as they apply in relation to a statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act which is subject to a procedure before Parliament, but as if references to Parliament were references to Parliament and the devolved legislature.
(7) In sub-paragraph (6) ‘devolved legislature’ means the Scottish Parliament, Senedd Cymru or the Northern Ireland Assembly.
(8) Nothing in this paragraph prevents the inclusion of other regulations in a statutory instrument or statutory rule which contains regulations under this Act.”
This amendment enables regulations under this Act subject to the draft affirmative procedure to be combined with regulations that are not subject to that procedure.
This is a technical amendment necessary to ensure that the mechanism for combining statutory instruments in the Bill functions correctly. The intent behind the Bill is to enable regulations made under different powers in the Bill to be combined into a single statutory instrument where it would be more appropriate to do so. This technical amendment will allow provisions made under any powers in the Bill and other enactments to be combined with regulations under the Bill that require a draft affirmative instrument.
Where such provisions are combined, the default procedure will be the higher procedure, which is the draft affirmative. That will enable statutory instruments to be combined more effectively, which will save resource and reduce the future burden on parliamentary business. The amendment also makes equivalent provision for the devolved legislatures. I commend the amendment to the Committee.
Justin Madders
I am grateful to the Minister for providing an explanation of the technical nature of the amendment. It actually quite an important amendment for the Government if they are to have any chance of meeting their self-imposed deadline in a year’s time. Being able to link together different instruments that require different procedures will, as the Minister said, be a helpful tool to limit the amount of parliamentary time taken up, although that may come at the cost of scrutiny. I am, however, encouraged by the Minister’s confirmation that the affirmative procedure will be used in those circumstances. It is almost as if there will be levelling up of regulations so that the higher standard of scrutiny will apply.
Will the Minister tell us whether there has been any assessment of on how many occasions it is anticipated that the amendment will be used? It is worth saying, once again, that if the Government had not created this artificial cliff edge and put themselves up against the clock so steadfastly, the amendment would not be necessary.
Peter Grant
I will not oppose the amendment, but I need to put on record that the fact that such a detailed technical amendment is needed is clear evidence that the people who draft legislation do not always get it right first time. Is it not lucky that we have a Bill Committee, so that errors, omissions and oversights in the drafting of the Bill can be put right before it comes into force? The 4,000 or so—at the latest estimate—bits of legislation that the Bill will tear up and throw in the fire will be replaced by things that we will not get a second chance to put right in Bill Committee.
When, as will almost certainly be the case, the Government end up repealing bits of legislation that nobody knew existed, we will not have a Bill Committee to put things on hold in order to correct any mistakes. The fact that the Government have already had to table this and so many other amendments and we have no idea what else they will have to introduce on Report or in the House of Lords does not represent a criticism of those who drafted the legislation. It is simply an illustration of an uncomfortable fact: no matter how good we are at drafting legislation, we do not get it right first time. If this Bill passes in the form in which the Government are determined to pass it, there are potential catastrophic impacts from Parliament repealing legislation that it did not even know existed.
Graham Stuart
I am glad that there is, I think, acceptance that this amendment is a practical and sensible measure. By bringing procedures together in one and having the affirmative procedure, we can ensure that Parliament can scrutinise in a more holistic manner, to address some of the concerns that have been raised by the Scottish nationalist spokesman. As to precisely how often, I do not have an estimate on that, but I expect it to be on numerous occasions, because, as has been said, there is a substantial amount of retained EU law. If that can be brought together and scrutinised in an effective manner that allows full and proper scrutiny but does so in a way that does not waste parliamentary time, I hope we will have something that works for all parts of the House and is seen as practical and proportionate.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Alex Sobel
I beg to move amendment 88, in schedule 3, page 31, line 6, leave out from “15” to the end of line 8 and insert—
“(d) regulations under section 16.”
This amendment, together with Amendment 89, would make all regulations under Clause 15 (regulations that are intended to achieve the same or similar objectives as the REUL being replaced) and under section 16 (technological developments) subject to affirmative procedure.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 89, in schedule 3, page 31, line 17, leave out paragraph (c).
See explanatory statement to Amendment 88.
Alex Sobel
We have already spoken at length about the lack of effective parliamentary scrutiny provided for in the Bill. Our amendments 88 and 89 would ensure that any instruments made by Ministers to replace retained EU law under clause 15 or to update it under clause 16 were subject to the affirmative procedure and had to be approved by both Houses. At present, schedule 3 does not provide for the affirmative procedure for clause 16 instruments at all; for clause 15, it provides for the affirmative procedure to apply only in the case of revocation or for much more limited cases where the clause 15 powers are used for sub-delegation or to create a new criminal offence.
It seems to us, as well as to many of those who have submitted written evidence, that the powers in both clauses are potentially extremely significant even if they are not being used for wholesale revocation. Updating and replacing retained EU law might well involve alterations to existing and long-established rights and protections—alterations that we feel Parliament should be asked to positively agree to before they pass into law. The Minister himself just said that this Bill covers a substantial number of regulations, so it is only right and proper that we have the correct level of scrutiny and process in this place.
Can the Minister explain the circumstances in which he envisages the powers to replace and update being used? Can he also provide examples of the replacement or updated legislation that Departments are planning to take through, using these powers? I ask because we have heard very little, but we know that civil servants are busy preparing regulations for this procedure.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
Good morning, Sir Gary. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning on this Bill. You have missed some real treats, I venture to suggest, about the future of decision making in this place.
Members who have been on this Committee for the whole marathon rather than the last couple of miles will know that Opposition Members have been raising consistent concerns about how we do what we were all promised we would be able to do—take back control. The amendments before us this morning are about exactly that, because one of the central concerns that we have about this legislation is that it does not take back control to the British people; it simply takes back control to the back rooms of Downing Street and Departments. These provisions, these amendments, show why that concern is merited.
All of us have sat through statutory instrument Committees in our time in Parliament. It is a joy to receive the message, at the last minute, that you have been selected, Sir Gary, for what pleasures—what delights—await you and what information you will learn on one of those Committees. But they are a vital part of our parliamentary scrutiny process. After all, they offer the opportunity for Ministers to set out clearly the purpose behind any amendments; the recognition that not everything needs to be debated on the Floor of the House; and clarity about the Government’s thinking. Many of us who have sat through court cases will recognise how important that is when it comes to the application of the law.
As we have discussed previously in Committee, this legislation will delete overnight potentially 4,000 laws. It could be more, or it could be slightly less—who knows? We probably should know before we pass the Bill. We have had that debate and the Government still do not think it is important, but they have always told us that they wanted to take away unaccountable European bureaucrats and give us the opportunity to have British bureaucrats making legislation. The amendment challenges that process. It would give back to us, as parliamentarians, the responsibility for holding the Government to account.
Stella Creasy
Perhaps, then, the Minister will publish and confirm for all of us who have been on the Committee—he is new to these debates, but I am afraid he is going to hear this concern repeated at length—what comes next. Without clarity over what comes next, it is difficult to be confident that the legislation will not be a destructive disaster. I see he is already enjoying the fact that he is on duty today.
Having this power only for revocation undermines other powers the Bill gives to Ministers, because it is a power both to ignore and to amend legislation. Taking back control and returning it to the back rooms to allow Ministers to write legislation and then simply put it before us in a “like it or lump it” proposal is not really taking back control.
I also venture to say that it is worth ensuring that we have this procedure for all forms of legislation that are affected by the Bill—not for some grand political design so we can have these wonderful debates, but because, as we have already seen with this Bill, not everything is going to be perfect. Departments make mistakes. Drafting can contain errors. I am reminded of the tale, which is completely true, of the Belgian legislature that managed to put a recipe for asparagus into Belgian law because it was cut and pasted into legislation by accident. That genuinely happened—I am sure the Minister will google it—in 2021.
Statutory instruments give us an opportunity to pick up drafting errors, as well as to hold Ministers to account, and to challenge and query legislation—for example, one of those so-called technical amendments, although we know the Bill represents not technical amendments, but, potentially, serious changes to rights, rules and regulations that people have relied on and recognised for generations. Having such a procedure would give us the chance to identify actions, and possibly to identify the asparagus.
If the Minister will not accept the amendment, he is saying two things: first, that taking back control is not about Parliament, but simply about the back rooms, and, secondly, that we never get things wrong. We have all met in life individuals, and perhaps even organisations, who say, “I never get things wrong,” and we know that that is the most worrying thing that anybody can say. Drafting errors are part and parcel of trying to get right even one or two pieces of legislation, but the Government, potentially, are setting us up to try to get 4,000 right to replace the laws they are deleting overnight.
Statutory instruments and the use of processes and amendments are an important part of the process of trying to ensure that that is done with the greatest possible skill. Removing those powers, or not clarifying that they are part of those processes, and giving Ministers the opportunity to decide whether they want to put themselves up for parliamentary scrutiny is like letting contestants in “The X Factor” avoid the judges’ houses stage. This all forms an important part of the process.
I have a horrible feeling that the Minister is not going accept the amendment, so in responding to the queries and questions we have raised, and in reflecting on why the amendment has been tabled, will he consider why—when we are discussing potentially significant and meaningful changes, and when we know he can only water down regulation because the Bill says that regulation can only be something that does not create a burden—he believes our constituents should be denied that representation and that voice in the process? That is what not including such a provision, or not having any form of it, means.
We saw that in the pandemic, when statutory instruments were not receiving appropriate scrutiny. In December 2020, a new set of covid restrictions that would have criminalised a child going to school in tier 4, despite schools remaining open, were implemented without any parliamentary scrutiny. In that case, due to the extraordinary public scrutiny these regulations faced, the issue was finally identified before the schools returned from the Christmas break for one day. Despite what they might think, however, it is not normal for commentators on Twitter to go through legislation at this level. Such errors are not minor—they are not just asparagus—but could have real life implications. They happen and they happen in this place, and not having proper scrutiny of SIs is the foundation of such errors.
I hope the Minister will do more than laugh at the asparagus. I hope he will act on these concerns and finally agree, if not to this amendment, to the tabling of the Government’s own amendment in the other place to ensure we finally take back some control. I say to my colleagues on the Government Back Benches that at some point, somebody will turn up in their constituency surgeries asking about the outcome and implication of this legislation, and they will have to say, “Well, I didn’t vote through any changes. I did not recognise the problems with the sunset. I was pretty confident about not knowing what laws this would affect and I did not even vote through any powers to be able to scrutinise what happens next. I just thought it would all be fine because this Government never make mistakes.” It simply will not wash.
Graham Stuart
I urge the Committee to reject amendments 88 and 89. Alongside the other powers in the Bill, the power to revoke or replace in clause 15 is an important, cross-cutting enabler of reform in the Bill. The power to update in clause 16 is an essential, ongoing power that will facilitate technical updates to retained EU law to take account of changes in technology or developments in scientific understanding. We recognise Parliament’s important role in scrutinising legislation, and the Bill ensures the appropriate scrutiny of all amendments and revocations of retained EU law using the powers in the Bill, including the powers provided for in clauses 15 and 16.
When discussing matters of scrutiny, I feel it is important to note the negligible scrutiny that most of the legislation we are discussing today—with such high-falutin’ language from the Opposition—received when it was created. When our democratically elected Government of the people of the United Kingdom take decisions, for which they are accountable at the ballot box, that is what I mean by taking back control. The people who are elected are responsible for what happens. That is what we have, and we are accountable at the ballot box. When they go to the ballot box now, British people will know who to hold responsible: us. It is not some pooled whatever system in Brussels; it is here in the United Kingdom. Power sits within this legislature, which is elected by the people of this country; it is not about precisely where the powers sit within our legislature. That is why it seems ironic that the Opposition parties had so little concern when powers were exercised on the other side of the channel, but apparently it is outrageous when those powers are exercised here by a democratically elected Government.
Several hon. Members rose—
Graham Stuart
I am not going to give way. If I was, I would certainly let them know, Sir Gary. [Hon. Members: “Lack of scrutiny!”] More important than issues around lack of scrutiny is the Minister’s failure to keep everyone calm. I recognise that is a significant misstep on my part.
Let me first turn to clause 15. Any regulations made under subsection 15(2) that recreate a power to make subordinate legislation or a criminal offence present in the retained EU law that is being replaced are already subject to the affirmative procedure, as are those regulations making alternative provision to the REUL being replaced under subsection 15(3). The power to update has been crafted so that we can do this in the right way. I must underscore this by saying that the power is intended to enable UK legislation to be updated to reflect future advances in science and technology, rather than to provide for any fundamental policy changes.
Given the scope of the power and the amendments that we expect to be made to regulations under this power, we judge the negative procedure to be the proportionate level of scrutiny. We therefore do not assess that it is necessary or appropriate for all regulations made under clauses 15 or 16 to be subject to the draft affirmative procedure. To do so would place additional pressure on parliamentary time and detract from the legislative agenda, and indeed from the scrutiny of substantive measures that should be subject to that positive scrutiny that we are talking about. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendments.
Peter Grant
Thank you, Sir Gary, for calling me to speak. You will be aware that I attempted to intervene on the Minister to correct his mistake, because we are not in the same position with this Bill as we were with European legislation. The reason that Parliament did not do more to scrutinise the action of British Government Ministers in making legislation on our behalf while we were in the European Union is that, for most of the time, Parliament under any Government was completely supine. This Parliament is set up in such a way that it does what the Government tell it to do. It is headline news around the world if Parliament does not do what the Government tell it to do. Parliament had the power to rein in Ministers, but shamefully it repeatedly failed to do so. If this Bill goes through, Parliament will not have that power; Ministers will be able to do pretty much what they like.
The Minister talks very grandly about the fact that people have the chance to hold the Government to account. It is not a debate for just now perhaps, although some of us think that it is a debate for every day of the week, but the people of Scotland have been holding this Conservative party to account since 1955 and they just cannot get rid of them. He will perhaps understand why we can have no confidence in a legislative process that puts powers into the hands of a group of Ministers who people in Scotland have rejected at every opportunity they have been given since before I was born.
Alex Sobel
I want to just pick up on the idea that before 2016, or before early 2020 anyway, the regulations that we are talking about were somehow just created out of thin air—that an EU Commissioner decided one day that that was the regulation and that was it, and suddenly it was law in this country. That is a long way from the truth. The regulations had to go through the Council of Ministers, on which a UK Minister sat; they had to go through the European Parliament, where UK MEPs sat and provided scrutiny; and then they had to go through this House and the whole process here in the UK Parliament. When they related to devolved bodies, they also had to go through the devolved Administrations. I do not understand the argument that somehow there was a lack of scrutiny and process before, and now there is proper scrutiny and proper process. What our amendments would do is introduce the affirmative procedure.
Stella Creasy
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a heavy irony in a Minister who refuses to take interventions and to be held accountable for what he says suggesting that nobody should be worried about the details of parliamentary scrutiny, who then cloaks himself in an argument that somehow the scrutiny mechanisms within the European Union were not acceptable?
Alex Sobel
That is a theme running through the whole Bill. First, Ministers want to take powers for themselves—for the Executive—and away from Parliament. I understand that the Executive in this country is elected, at least in part—that is, down at this end of the building. Secondly, even in the microcosm of this Bill Committee, this is the third part of the Bill on which Ministers have refused to take interventions from the Opposition. They are not prepared to allow relevant scrutiny, which creates an even stronger argument as to why we need protections.
Justin Madders
Does my hon. Friend agree that although we hear an awful lot about how terrible the processes were and about these laws being imposed on us, as we discussed at length, we never hear which specific laws the Government object to?
Alex Sobel
As we do not know, there might be more than 4,000 of these regulations. We would all like lists of the various different types of regulations; I would certainly like to see which of the regulations did not receive adequate democratic process and scrutiny.
In conclusion, all of the arguments that we have heard make it even more important that the Committee accepts these two amendments.
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 69, in schedule 3, page 33, line 10, at end insert—
“Consent of Scottish Ministers
8A Before making regulations to which this Part of this Schedule applies, a Minister of the Crown must obtain the consent of the Scottish Ministers.”
This amendment modifies the powers which are conferred on Ministers of the Crown in devolved areas so that they may only be exercised with the consent of the Scottish Ministers.
Amendment 69, tabled in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes, simply adds a line to the end of schedule 3 that, in layman’s terms, would prevent the UK Government from acting in areas of devolved competence without the consent of the relevant Scottish Government Minister or Ministers. In previous sessions, we have discussed how the UK Government plan to avoid parliamentary scrutiny by packing Delegated Legislation Committees of this House, and using secondary legislation to dispose of thousands of pieces of retained EU law.
The Minister has heard that we on these Benches are deeply concerned about the lack of parliamentary scrutiny. Although we who work in this Parliament might be concerned, it is completely unacceptable that the Governments and parliamentarians across these islands will be excluded from those Committees and will have to sit and watch us. My hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes pointed out that they will have to watch as members of a party that has not won an election in Scotland since 1955 push through change after change to legislation in areas that have been—and are—wholly devolved, and which the people of Scotland and its democratically elected Government do not want changed.
It is yet another example of things being done to us, against our wishes, by a Government who we did not elect. I say to the UK Government that amendment 69 is another opportunity to show the people of Scotland that you value their opinion, you respect their Parliament and Government, and you wish to respect the devolution settlement. I urge you to accept this amendment. If you do, then maybe you will go some way to letting the people of Scotland know that you are not coming for our Parliament or our powers.
The Chair
Just a reminder that “you” is me. Does the hon. Gentleman mean the Minister, because I love the people of Scotland?
Brendan O’Hara
Absolutely, Sir Gary. I have no idea what you wish to do after you leave this place, but I am certain it is not that. If the Minster accepts the amendment, that would maybe go some way to showing that his Government are not coming after our powers or our Parliament.
Graham Stuart
I urge the members of the Committee to reject the amendment. As they are aware, the Bill contains a sunset date of 31 December 2023, by which all retained EU law will be removed or reformed. That date was chosen to create the impetus for REUL reform and enact change at the earliest opportunity. The Bill has been drafted to ensure that the sunset date is workable, but it is pivotal that there are no impediments or delays in that process. A delay of a month or more to seek consent would make it more difficult for the necessary regulations to be laid before that date. That risks the inadvertent sunsetting of laws that Departments have identified they wish to keep.
Peter Grant
The Minister appears to be admitting that the ideological, arbitrary and unnecessary deadline of the end of next year is more important than the basic processes of democracy and of courtesy towards the devolution settlement. Is that correct? Is that what he is saying?
Graham Stuart
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his colleague, the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute, on the mental and political gymnastics through which they put themselves in order to make out that perfectly reasonable, fair, proportionate and devolution-friendly legislation is somehow an affront to the Scottish people and devolution. It takes a particular turn of mind and will to twist everything into a grievance, even when that is not borne out as a reasonable outcome.
The UK Government take into account a variety of factors when seeking delegated powers in devolved areas. Each Bill is drafted according to its specific policy intent and the most appropriate way to effect those policy changes. The powers for the UK Government to make statutory instruments in devolved areas are not new, and have been used across a wide range of policy areas since the advent of devolution. That is because it is often appropriate for the UK Government to amend existing, or introduce new UK-wide regulations, including in devolved areas. That approach is more efficient and ensures greater coherence across the UK, as well as making it easier for our stakeholders.
Furthermore, the amendment would impose on UK Ministers a consent requirement from Scottish Ministers for provisions in areas of devolved competence. As I said, the boundaries are not always clearcut and could give rise to litigation, which might result in regulations being struck down by the courts.
The Bill is not intended to take powers from the devolved Governments and nothing in our proposed legislation affects the devolution settlements. In fact, the powers under the Bill will give the devolved Governments greater flexibility to decide how they will regulate those areas governed by retained EU law in the future. That will enable the Scottish Government to make active decisions about retained EU law within their devolved competence for the benefit of citizens and businesses in Scotland. What a shame that we did not hear any of that reflected in the contribution of the SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute.
The Government remain committed to continuing discussions with the devolved Governments throughout the passage of the Bill to ensure that the most efficient and appropriate approach to REUL reform can be taken in every situation in a way that works and provides certainty for all parts of the UK. As I said and do not apologise for repeating, the Scottish Government will be able to make active decisions about retained EU law within their competence. They need to get on with that and not have their representatives in this Parliament making out inaccurately that the Bill makes impositions on Scotland that it does not.
Brendan O’Hara
It is nice to see the Minister revert to type. Having been regaled for the past two or three days by someone with a slightly more considered approach, it is nice to see that the Government’s gloves have finally come off. We are getting down to the nitty-gritty of the Bill.
Let us be absolutely clear: this Bill is a full-on attack on the devolution settlement. Coupled with the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, this is an attack on our Parliament and our power. The idea that the Bill is “devolution-friendly” is literally laughable, as he heard from the reaction to it of me and my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes.
To be clear, that date of 31 December was chosen without consent. No one asked the Scottish Government or the Scottish Parliament if they agreed to that date. The date is ideological, arbitrary and a cliff edge 13 months from now, and it is almost certain to fail. It is an impossible target to achieve, and it will not be achieved. I say to the Minister again: we are giving him and his Government the opportunity to show that they respect the devolved settlement and Administrations. The amendment gives them the opportunity to say once and for all: “We respect you, listen to you and value your contribution.”
Despite all the Minister has said, I urge him yet again to accept the amendment. If he does not, however, I will not press it to a vote.
Peter Grant
It is not only in their debate style that we have seen a complete contrast between the Minister and his colleague the Minister for Industry and Investment Security, who was in Committee last week. We should remember what the Minister’s colleague said last week about the need for the 31 December deadline and how achievable it was. When we raised concerns that bits of legislation will be repealed by mistake, that was scaremongering. When we raised concerns that if the Government force through 90,000 job cuts in the civil service, civil servants who are already overworked will be put under impossible pressure, that was scaremongering as well. When we warned that the pressure would lead to more mistakes being made than would be acceptable or sustainable, that was scaremongering because the civil servants would get it right first time in just over a year. Now we are being told that a delay of a month in a small minority of some of these 4,000 bits of legislation would be so catastrophic that it cannot even be allowed in the name of simple democracy or simple courtesy.
If the Minister is concerned that a month’s delay is too long and if the Government are really on top of the problem, as they keep telling us they are, they could send a message to the devolved Governments today to say: “These are the parts of retained EU law that we think have got a direct impact on your devolved powers. We only need to give you a month to decide whether or not to give consent. But because the Government are in control and we know what we are doing, we can give you six months. If you come back in six months and tell us whether you consent, we still have three months to negotiate any differences and then a full three months to put the legislation in place.” That is how the Government would manage the situation if, first, they really were in control and knew what they were doing, of which we have seen very little evidence so far, and secondly, if they really believed in and respected the spirit of devolution.
The spirit of devolution is that there will be different answers in the four different nations of the United Kingdom because there are different needs, different priorities and, as we see, more and more different expressions of political will. On that point, the Minister keeps referring to the suggestion that Government Members understand and respect the will of the people of Scotland. We are prepared to put that to the test at any date of the Government’s choosing. The Government are running away from the will of the people of Scotland.
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chair
Just a gentle reminder that we are sometimes in danger of making Second Reading speeches on some of the amendments. We all know the rules, so let us keep our focus on the amendment in hand.
Question proposed, That the schedule be the Third schedule to the Bill.
Justin Madders
It is worth spending a little time on schedule 3 because it is the engine underneath the dashboard of the vehicle that will drive us off the cliff edge at the end of next year. It gives the Government the ability to use regulations to carry out the heavy lifting required by the Bill. As we have discussed many times already, we know the potential ramifications of that for the huge range of protections that our constituents currently enjoy and for the lack of parliamentary oversight that there will be in that process.
We have said all this before, but the broad changes that will be carried out under the regulations will mainly fall under the negative procedure. Offering only the affirmative procedure to a small proportion of the changes envisaged by the Bill falls far below the standard of scrutiny that we would expect. When one considers the sheer number of regulations required to make the changes, which we have talked about, and of course the risk that laws will fall by default because the relevant Department has not identified them, the concerns over lack of scrutiny multiply.
Stella Creasy
Does my hon. Friend agree that what is so critical is that we depend on Ministers knowing what is affected and what is not? I am struck by the fact that the Minister tried to tell us on Second Reading that airline safety rules would not be included and therefore we did not need to worry about the regulations. In fact, subsequent written parliamentary questions have confirmed that the SIs around airline safety were part of the Bill and therefore not contained in the Civil Aviation Act. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that making sure the engine underneath is roadworthy is perhaps one of the most critical things we can do in Committee, given that Ministers themselves perhaps should not be at the wheel?
Justin Madders
I think I have got rather lost in the number of analogies there; I might want to pull over and take a breather. The point is that we just do not know the full extent of the Bill. If we do not know, and if the Ministers and civil servants do not know, we cannot be confident that there will be no unintended consequences, which is why the level of scrutiny that the Bill affords is inadequate.
The wider problem is the way the Bill is framed. It seeks to provide the wrong answer to, essentially, the right question—“What do we do about all the retained EU law?”—but I am afraid that the answer we have come up with is wholly inappropriate. It does not uphold principles of scrutiny or parliamentary supremacy; actually, it makes Parliament a bystander in large parts of the process.
Graham Stuart
Schedule 3 specifies how the powers in the Bill will be exercised through regulations made by statutory instrument or the relevant equivalent in the devolved Administrations. The schedule sets out the parliamentary procedure applicable to specific powers in the Bill, including in cases where instruments contain combined provisions using a number of powers. It provides for equivalent procedures to apply in the devolved legislatures and for joint procedures to be available when Ministers of the Crown are making regulations jointly with devolved authorities.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the sifting procedure. The sifting procedure will apply to legislation made under clause 12, the power to restate retained EU law; clause 13, the power to restate assimilated law or sunsetted EU rights, powers, liabilities and so on; and clause 15, powers to revoke or replace, where Ministers decide to use the negative procedure. The sifting procedure largely corresponds with the sifting procedure under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and under the European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020. In both cases, sifting was effectively used to ensure proportionate parliamentary scrutiny on legislation regarding EU exit.
Under the procedure, recommendations on the appropriate procedure from both Committees, in the House of Lords and House of Commons, must be received before the instrument can be made. If either Committee recommends that the instrument should be subject to the draft affirmative procedure, the Minister must either follow that recommendation or publish a written statement explaining why they disagree with the Committee’s recommendations. If no recommendations have been received from the Committees after 10 days, the legislation can be made under the proposed procedure.
The sifting procedure will provide additional scrutiny of the powers while retaining the flexibility of using the negative procedure when and only when there are good reasons for doing so. The Government recognises the significant role Parliament has played in scrutinising instruments subject to these sifting procedures and are committed to ensuring the appropriate scrutiny of any secondary legislation made under the delegated powers in the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, accordingly agreed to.
Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 22
Commencement, Transitional and savings
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 66, in clause 22, page 21, line 39, at end insert—
“(aa) section [Impact assessments];”.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 3—Impact assessments—
“The Secretary of State must publish an assessment of the impact of the
(a) revocation of any—
(i) EU-derived subordinate legislation, or
(ii) retained direct EU legislation, or
(b) removal under section 3 of any rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies or procedures saved by virtue of section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 at least three months before the revocation or (as the case may be) removal takes effect.”
Brendan O’Hara
I will be mercifully brief. The amendment stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes. The amendment and new clause 3 would oblige the UK Government to provide an impact assessment on what they believe the likely consequences would be of any withdrawal of a piece of legislation before any revocation of the EU law takes place. That impact assessment should be published three months ahead of any scheduled revocation date.
The Government may see that requirement as a tad onerous, but it simply reflects the gravity of what the Government are planning with retained EU law. It would ensure that, rather than having the planned bonfire of legislation, the Government and their Departments of State are forced to consider very carefully and in great detail exactly the consequences of what they are about to do. Is that not what our constituents would expect of this Parliament and its parliamentarians—to consider very carefully the consequences of each piece of action that it takes and what impact it may have on those constituents, their businesses and livelihoods? I urge the Government to accept the amendment and new clause.
Graham Stuart
I ask that the Committee reject the amendment and new clause. When retained EU law is a regulatory provision and is being amended significantly, we would expect Departments to put their measures through the Government systems for regulatory scrutiny, such as the better regulation framework.
Where measures are being revoked, Departments will be expected to undertake proportionate analytical appraisal, and we are exploring appropriate steps that we can take to appraise the resulting impacts. However, given that Departments will undertake proper and proportionate cost-benefit analysis in relation to amendments to retained EU law, we do not consider there to be a need to include a reference to impact assessments in clause 22, relating to commencement, as such procedures and approaches are baked into the way Departments behave. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to consider withdrawing the amendment.
Brendan O’Hara
I am disappointed but not in the least surprised by the Minister’s response. In the future, when we pick over the detritus of the Bill and people say, “Why did they do it the way they did it?” the Government will never be able to say that they did not know what would happen and that it was not brought to their attention. They have decided to plough on regardless with this self-imposed cliff-edge deadline. I will not push the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 71, in clause 22, page 21, line 39, at end insert—
“(aa) section [Assessment of the impact of repeal of retained EU law];”.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 7—Assessment of the impact of repeal of retained EU law—
“Within three months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish an assessment of the impact of the repeal of any retained EU law done under the provisions of this Act.”
Brendan O’Hara
I will again be brief. The amendment and new clause would oblige the UK Government to publish an impact assessment of the consequences of repealing retained EU law. If they are not prepared to publish an analysis before, it is incumbent on them to publish an impact assessment of the consequences of every piece of retained EU law that is being revoked, and for that impact assessment to be published no later than three months after the date that any revocation has taken place.
This proposal is similar to what we proposed with amendment 66. We understand that it will take a great deal of work for Ministers and officials, but given the seriousness of the consequences of getting this wrong, if this revocation of retained EU law has to happen, it should happen with as little negative impact on businesses and people’s lives. That may mean a little extra work for Ministers, their staff and Whitehall Departments, but we think it is well worth doing.
I hope the Minister will view this amendment—indeed, all our amendments—as being in the spirit of trying to make what we have described as a truly awful piece of legislation just a little better. As we said at the outset, given the rate at which the Government are planning to proceed, mistakes are absolutely inevitable, and people—our constituents and their businesses—will be hurt by those mistakes. If the Government are not prepared to do an impact assessment before they revoke EU law, it is incumbent on them to carry one out after the EU law has been revoked so we can understand the consequences of what has happened and hopefully avoid a future catastrophe.
Graham Stuart
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the constructive spirit in which he tabled the amendment and new clause. None the less, I ask the Committee to reject them. They are similar to the previous group. Given that Departments will undertake proper and proportionate analysis in relation to amendments to retained EU law, and that effort is under way to understand the potential impacts of sunsetting, we do not consider that there is a need to include them in the Bill. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw them.
Brendan O’Hara
I thank the Minister for his reply. It is nice to see that the temperature has come down somewhat. If only to reassure the public that what they are doing is working, it is incumbent on the Government to provide these impact assessments. The Bill is happening hurriedly and, dare I say it, with a lack of planning, and when it hits the buffers on 31 December next year, people have a right to know what that means for them. However, I will not press the amendment to a vote. I am certain that we shall return to this issue on Report, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 61, in clause 22, page 21, line 42, at end insert—
“(da) section [Impact on the UK’s obligations under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement];”.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 1—Impact on the UK’s obligations under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement—
“Within three months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament an assessment of the impact of this Act on the UK’s obligations under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the UK and the European Union done at Brussels and London on 30 December 2020.”
Brendan O’Hara
When England and Wales voted to leave the European Union, and took Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the EU along with them, the United Kingdom Government signed a withdrawal agreement with Brussels. In return for certain rights and privileges in terms of trade with the EU, the United Kingdom promised not to diverge from the agreed level playing field set out in the trade and co-operation agreement.
I and many others have serious concerns that, if the Bill passes into law as it stands, the United Kingdom is in grave danger of breaching the international agreement it signed—I presume in good faith. On the presumption that the trade and co-operation agreement was signed in good faith, and that the UK Government would not knowingly and deliberately break such an important international treaty, I strongly urge the Government accept amendment 61. It would oblige the Government to publish, within three months of the Bill becoming law, an impact assessment of how the revocation of retained EU law, particularly on workers’ rights and environmental protections, has affected the trade and co-operation agreement.
The Government cannot be deaf to people’s concerns about the Bill, or to the genuinely held fear that, if it is pushed through unamended, and is implemented in the way that the Government have suggested, it will have a detrimental impact on the level playing field agreement with the European Union. If that happens, and if we stumble, accidentally or otherwise, into a situation in which we have broken the level playing field agreement, I fear that the United Kingdom could expect economic sanctions to follow. The last thing that the economy needs right now is another completely avoidable self-inflicted knock.
I urge the Government to accept the amendment. It makes sense. It sends a signal to our friends in the European Union that the United Kingdom is not about to unilaterally diverge from or break its international agreements, that we respect the level playing field, and that we will stick to what we said.
Justin Madders
I will be brief. This is an issue about which we are also concerned. No one wants to enter into a trade war because a Minister makes a mistake, and amends or forgets to restore regulations. That is what the Bill risks. I remind the Committee what the hon. Member for Watford (Dean Russell) said on Second Reading:
“I am very happy to make a commitment today that the Government will, as a priority, take the necessary action to safeguard the substance of any retained EU law and legal effects required to operate international obligations within domestic law. We will set out where retained EU law is required to maintain international obligations through the dashboard”—[Official Report, 25 October 2022; Vol. 721, c. 189.]
We are back to the dashboard. That is not quite as good as having something in the Bill, which is what the amendment seeks. However, it prompts a question for the Minister: when can we expect the commitments regarding the lovely dashboard to be honoured? We are all regularly hitting “refresh” to see whether the dashboard will be updated with the additional 100-plus or 1,400-plus Bills that have been identified. It is important that our international obligations are maintained. If there is a way of ensuring that Parliament is content, we are happy to support the amendment.
Graham Stuart
I ask the Committee to reject the amendment. None the less, the Government agree about the importance of the UK continuing to meet the obligations set out in the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement. As a sovereign nation, we have the right to regulate as we see fit and in the best interests of the UK. This right is preserved in the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement, and the Bill is part of us exercising that right. The level playing field provisions commit the UK and EU not to weaken or reduce overall levels of protection on labour and social standards, climate and the environment in a manner affecting trade or investment between the parties.
The Government’s intention is to ensure the necessary legislation is in place to uphold the UK’s international obligations. That is why we pledged on Second Reading to safeguard in domestic law the substance and legal effect of any retained EU law necessary to meet those international obligations. We have an exciting opportunity to embark on ambitious regulatory reform and remove outdated legislation that does not suit the UK. We can build on the high standards we have committed to within the trade and co-operation agreement, and at the same time boost competitiveness and productivity—something I hope the whole Committee will support. I therefore urge the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute to withdraw the amendment.
Brendan O’Hara
I thank the Minister for that response. Whether on workers’ rights or environmental protection, we have heard so much evidence and correspondence from people outside this Parliament who have genuine fears that this is the starting pistol of a deregulatory race to the bottom. If that were to be the case, I fear that the United Kingdom would be in breach of the level playing field agreement. I do not think the Government have fully considered the implications of this legislation. All my amendment sought to do was force the Government to consider those implications. I would push it to a vote, but I think it is another issue we will return to at a later stage, because it is vital that we are not seen to be tearing up international agreements or flying in the face of them in the way I fear the Bill will do. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Brendan O’Hara
I beg to move amendment 65, in clause 22, page 21, line 42, at end insert—
“(da) section [Disapplication of the UK Internal Market Act 2020];”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Disapplication of the UK Internal Market Act 2020—
“Where Scottish Ministers have used any power granted to them under this Act—
(a) to provide that any EU-derived subordinate legislation or retained direct EU legislation is not subject to revocation at the end of 2023, or
(b) to restate any provision of retained EU law (or, as the case may be, assimilated law), that legislation or provision shall apply notwithstanding any provision of the UK Internal Market Act 2020.”
Brendan O’Hara
Having been mercifully brief previously, I may take slightly longer now, because I think these measures are fundamental to our concerns about the Bill. Amendment 65 and new clause 2 would ensure that UK Ministers could not use the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to undermine or deny Scottish Ministers protecting retained EU law. These measures go to the heart of the issue—working between the internal market Act and this Bill.
We have said throughout Committee that even if this were a standalone piece of legislation, it would be sufficiently bad for us to oppose it at every step of the way. But for Scotland—and, I suspect, other devolved Governments—we have taken it in conjunction with the internal market Act. Not only does it present an existential threat to Parliament and the devolution settlement; this Bill is a disaster for crucial parts of the Scottish economy. I do not think it was coincidental or accidental. This is part of a deliberate policy to undermine and weaken devolution and the devolved Parliaments. It is designed to force the constituent parts of the United Kingdom to align their policies with those of the UK Government and to do what this Government tell them to do. The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 knowingly created confusion and deliberately blurred the hitherto clear lines of demarcation that existed.
The Bill, when in effect, will impose this place’s will on areas that have been wholly devolved since the Scottish Parliament was reconstituted more than two decades ago. In the areas of the environment, health, food standards and animal welfare, the democratically elected Scottish Parliament is the body that sets policy and direction. Since the internal market Act came into effect, we have seen significant encroachment by the UK Government into these wholly devolved areas. Amendment 65 and new clause 2 would ensure that if the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament decided that they wished to remain aligned to EU law, they could do so without the imposition of the internal market Act forcing them to change their position.
The infringement into the powers of our Parliament has, I fear, become a full-scale attack, with blanket, UK-wide—from Truro to Thurso—policies being imposed in areas over which this Government have no legislative consent. It is a crusade to weaken food standards, animal welfare, product labelling, environmental health and so much else by a Government who have no mandate to operate in those fields in Scotland. As I said earlier, this is the starting pistol on the deregulatory race to the bottom. That is why the United Kingdom Internal Market Act and the Bill have been brought in in this way. It goes completely against the spirit of devolution and is in direct contravention of the Sewel convention.
Before Second Reading, I met with the regional board of the National Farmers Union of Scotland in Argyll and Bute on a farm near Oban. The message was stark: farmers feel forgotten and undervalued. They have been battered by Brexit and they now face this Bill, which, they have said, is a potential death sentence for the agriculture sector in Scotland, which requires subsidies to manage the land, keep the lights on in the hills, provide employment and stem rural depopulation, as well as producing high-quality, high-value beef, lamb and dairy.
We know that the Bill will allow the lowering of food standards. We know that it will allow the relaxation of rules around labelling and animal welfare. We know that it will allow mass importation of inferior-quality products. All that will be an unmitigated disaster for Scottish agriculture. Our farmers are also painfully aware that, as it stands, there is very little that their democratically elected Parliament can do about it.
Last Wednesday, between our sittings on Tuesday and Thursday, I met Martin Kennedy, president of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, and his officials. They repeated almost word for word what I was told by my Argyll and Bute farmers. Martin Kennedy’s message to the Committee and this Government is that he and his members have severe reservations and concerns about the potential impacts of this Bill. As we do, he and his farmers accept that the Bill cannot be taken in isolation, but has to be put alongside the United Kingdom Internal Market Act.
Scottish farmers are not best noted for their political radicalism—probably because they are so busy battling the elements day and night to produce some of our best dairy and meat products—but this Government should understand that the Scottish agriculture sector is up in arms, maybe as never before, about the Bill and the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, and their disastrous consequences. If the Government will not listen to us here today and choose to ignore the Scottish Government, I implore them: listen to Martin Kennedy and his members about what this Bill will do to them, and their businesses and livelihoods. They are the ones who will bear the brunt of being forced into a UK-wide, one-size-fits-all regulatory framework that forces us to diverge from EU regulations.
When supermarket shelves become full of cheap, inferior cuts of meat, when lorryloads of chlorine-washed chicken cross the border and saturate the market, when animal welfare is a thing of the past, and when labelling rules are so relaxed that consumers do not know what they are consuming, that is a death knell for Scottish agriculture. The people of Scotland should be in no doubt that this Bill, coupled with the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, means one thing and one thing only: this place is coming for our Parliament and our democracy.
Justin Madders
Unfortunately, the new clause appears to apply only to Ministers in Scotland, not in the other devolved nations, but it does raise some important issues. If we start from the proposition that it is right that in areas of devolved competence, the devolved Administrations should have the ability to re-regulate their own priorities, which, I think, is where the Bill takes us, it does not take much to see where that might cause some difficulties, particularly when the Bill creates no wider duty in relation to the operation of the market access principles underpinning the UK internal market. The Bill creates the risk of new barriers to trade in the UK internal market. I accept that there is a conundrum there.
We want to allow the devolved nations to develop policy as per their own competencies, but there is no process in the Bill for resolution of any regulatory differences between the UK and the devolved Governments and, critically, no process for businesses or consumers to be consulted on the potential for new barriers between England, Scotland and Wales for certain categories of good. We need to understand how the Government intend to address that. Are the processes in the UK Government and devolved Administrations common frameworks post Brexit intended to apply to the Bill? If so, it is not clear from the Bill. Perhaps the Minister can reassure us on that.
Peter Grant
I take the initial point of the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston that we should perhaps have included the other devolved nations. It is an indication of the weakness of the Bill Committee system that sometimes some of the devolved nations have no representation whatever on a Committee. Of course, the way to address that is for the Government to signal their clear intent by accepting the amendment and undertaking to introduce an equivalent amendment protecting Northern Ireland and Wales at a later stage.
My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute raised a concern that the Bill will be used to lower standards. The Government always howl in protest and say that it will not be, but last week they insisted on including a clause that would prohibit making regulations under the Bill that placed additional burdens on businesses. They have not introduced a clause that prohibits the use of the Bill to make regulations to lower standards on workers’ rights, animal welfare or anything else. I wonder why that might be.
My hon. Friend also pointed out yet again that the presumptuous way in which the UK Government forced through the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 was based on the assumption that, notwithstanding the devolution settlements, Ministers in the British Government have the right to overrule the elected national Parliaments and Governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Although there will be cases where it is better to have similar or sometimes identical standards across these islands, the Government assume that what is decided by those who are elected by and for the people of England should automatically be what is imposed on the people of the other nations of the United Kingdom. That is not how devolution works. That is not how consensus works, which is what the Secretary of State for Scotland kept going on about last Wednesday in reply to our urgent question.
If the Government seriously want to work by consensus across the four nations, they would introduce legislation that required it to be in place before anything was done to change legislation. The Government have been reminded umpteen times over the past few weeks of the devolved competencies of our national Parliament in Scotland, Senedd Cymru and the Assembly in Northern Ireland. I appreciate that there is a different situation in Northern Ireland just now, and that there may be times when it is essential, and in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, for the UK Parliament to act when the Northern Ireland Assembly is not functioning, but the Bill is not about stepping in in emergency circumstances. The Bill, and the clause that we are looking at, is about the Government having the right to step in wherever it suits them.
I urge the Government to accept the amendment. I know they will not, because they seem to be under orders not to listen to or accept any amendment, regardless of how sound or sensible it is, if it comes from the wrong side of the Committee. If that is an indication of the way they intend to use the powers that the Bill will give them, we should all be very concerned indeed.
Graham Stuart
I urge the Committee to reject the amendment. The UKIM Act was introduced to protect businesses, jobs and livelihoods following our exit from the EU. The amendment seeks to disapply the provisions of the UKIM Act in cases where Scottish Government Ministers use the powers contained in the Bill to preserve or restate retained EU law. The operation of the UKIM Act is essential in maintaining our integrated market to ensure the free flow of goods, services, and people through the recognition of professional qualifications throughout the UK. The UKIM Act provides certainty for businesses and consumers where divergent approaches to regulation are taken in different parts of the UK, and the provisions of the Bill do not change that.
We recognise and value four nation co-operation—that is one reason that all four Administrations jointly started the common frameworks programme—and we remain committed to working with the devolved Governments in areas of shared policy interest, including REUL. I can see why the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute, from an oppositional point of view, would make out that we will lower our standards, but that is absolutely not our intent. Food standards are a devolved matter—I think that will be reassuring for Martin and his members—and key measures in the Bill apply to the devolved Administration. Accordingly, the devolved Governments will be able to exercise the powers in the Bill to amend retained EU law in their existing devolved competencies. We will work with all the devolved Governments, including the Scottish Government, on retained EU law reforms in line with commitments and common framework agreements that cover food standards.
Brendan O’Hara
If food standards will be absolutely protected and enshrined, as the Minister said, will he give me a cast-iron guarantee that, if the Scottish Government decide they do not want chlorine-washed chicken, they can prevent lorryloads of chlorine-washed chicken from crossing the border? Can he give me a cast-iron guarantee that if the Scottish Government say that they do not want inferior, cheap, hormone-injected beef on Scottish supermarket shelves, they can prevent that from happening? Can he give me a guarantee that, should the Scottish Government decide they will stick to the legislation on animal welfare and passporting, that too will be absolutely protected in this legislation?
Graham Stuart
Of course, chlorine, chlorine dioxide and other chemical washes have not been approved for washing chicken meat, and therefore are not allowed to be used. The hon. Gentleman can paint up any number of other unfounded scare stories and ask for categorical assurance from the Government that they are not planning to kill every firstborn, but I assure the Committee that that is not our intention.
Brendan O’Hara
Let me rephrase the question. Should the UK Government decide that chlorine-washed chicken is acceptable and the Scottish Government decide it is not, could the Minister give me a cast-iron guarantee that the primacy of the Scottish Government’s decision to continue to ban chlorine-washed chicken would be respected under the terms of the Bill?
Graham Stuart
Of course, it may be a question as to whether the Scottish Government decide to approve chlorine-washed chicken. Imagine if the scientific evidence provided in Scotland did that; perhaps the Scottish Government are secretly planning to bring in chlorine-washed chicken, in which case we would have to consider how that would be dealt with. In that instance or any other, the Government will continue to work closely with the devolved Governments to manage intra-UK divergence, including through existing mechanisms such as the common frameworks programme and the UK Internal Market Act.
I will not insult the Committee by suggesting that the Scottish Government will do things that I honestly do not think that they will do; I just wish that the hon. Gentleman would do us the courtesy of doing the same. I urge him to withdraw his amendment.
Brendan O’Hara
I will not withdraw the amendment, and I will seek to divide the Committee. The Minister said that the UK Internal Market Act is there to protect the interests of business; perhaps it is there to protect the interests of business as long as the business is not a Scottish farmer. This will be the death knell for the Scottish agricultural sector. Those in the sector are not the most radical group on the planet, but this Government and legislation have fired them up as I have never seen before. This is not four nation co-operation; this is as far as we can get from four nation co-operation. This is one nation imposition. On that basis, I will seek to divide the Committee.
The Chair
Order. It is 11.25 am. We will start this afternoon at 2 o’clock with a Division. I know that Members are keen to get to the Chamber, so off you go.
Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill (Nineteenth sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2022
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 View all Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2022 - (29 Nov 2022)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 6 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and it is fantastic to rise to do something more worthy in Committee than pour water for my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central.
I accept completely that, as has been said many times, the Bill is excellent and we just need to tighten it up, and that it contains provisions, including on unique identifiers, that will help to block some of the more obvious means of carrying out the practice of phoenixing, which has been discussed both when we took oral evidence and throughout line-by-line scrutiny. However, it is my view, and that of many others, that we are missing a golden opportunity to fully address phoenixing with the Bill and to tighten up all parts of the regulations relating to Companies House.
The genesis behind new clauses 69 and 70 is a specific directorate and company the businesses of which have unfortunately harmed my constituents and many others across Scotland and throughout the UK. New clause 69 would stop those who burn through multiple limited companies leaving a train of destruction in their wake, with little or no recourse for the authorities. It would not prevent those who have no nefarious or ill intent but find that their company is unsuccessful, even on more than one occasion. It would not apply automatically to any individual who hits the three winding-ups limit; it would only allow the registrar to act if there were grounds to do so.
Around 10 years, a company called HELMS—Home Energy and Lifestyle Management Systems—controlled and operated by a man named Robert Skillen, went door to door in my constituency offering solar panels and home insulation as part of the now-scrapped UK Government green deal scheme. You will be pleased to know, Mr Robertson, that I do not intend to go over the whole story; suffice it to say that hundreds of my constituents and thousands of people across Scotland are still paying the price to the tune of thousands of pounds each.
Skillen was able to wind up HELMS, move on to his latest venture with millions in his back pocket and face no consequences for his personal actions. He is an individual—there will be thousands like him—with a long track record of extracting maximum value from his scams via limited companies and then setting up shop for a new crack at it, having defrauded thousands of people. He even had the cheek to set up a company to assist those who had been defrauded by his previous company to receive compensation from which he would receive a cut. That type of individual is currently beyond the reach of the law; hopefully, provisions such as the new clause would assist with that.
Mr Skillen was fined £200,000 by the Information Commissioner’s Office and £10,500 by the Department of Energy and Climate Change, as it was at the time, but the fact is that of that £200,000 he paid only £10,000 before winding the company up. That led the ICO to lobby the Government to enable it to fine individuals such as Robert Skillen up to £500,000.
In respect of cases such as those of Mr Skillen and many others who make sharp practice look easy and do so without any care or remorse, the new clause would act as a deterrent to the manipulation of company registration for personal gain and enrichment and prevent those who have used multiple company identities for malfeasance or sinister purposes from continuing that pattern of behaviour ad nauseum. I stress that the point of the new clause is not to prevent those who have had genuinely unsuccessful businesses from starting afresh. The registrar should be able to separate those cases from those of people with evil intent.
Companies House already has the power to disqualify directors and the new clause would simply allow it to consider slightly wider grounds on which such a disqualification could rest. It would help to put an end to the cases that every Committee member will have encountered in their constituencies of companies taking payment for goods and services, shutting up shop with the cash pocketed and then popping up again under a different name but carrying out exactly the same work. The purpose of the new clause is to tease out from the Minister the Government’s approach to phoenixing. With that, I rest.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Robertson, and to follow the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, who made a very important speech. New clause 69 would introduce new provisions to prevent the continued trading of companies repeatedly declared insolvent and the practice of phoenixing, which the hon. Member outlined. It states:
“A company may not be registered under the Companies Act 2006 if, in the opinion of the registrar of companies, it is substantially similar to a company which has been subject to winding up procedures under the Insolvency Act 1986 on more than three occasions in the preceding ten years.”
A company may be “substantially similar” to previous companies in terms of its name, registered office, proposed officers and so on. This would mean that there is more scrutiny, and questions are raised about whether a company should be able to continue trading.
It is very important, for the reasons we have outlined in Committee, to seek to protect the public and other businesses from unscrupulous operators effectively carrying on their business activity and going through the same cycle of building up debts, which leads to consumer issues, and simply disappearing and starting again. We must deal with that behaviour, which is a route through which economic crime takes place, and that is why we support the new clause. We will listen closely to the Minister’s response on how the Government propose to tackle the issue of phoenixing.
I note the similarity between the intentions of this new clause and new clauses 28 and 46, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon and I, which we have discussed. In different ways, all those new clauses would tighten up glaring loopholes around strike-off, insolvency and phoenixing that enable those who are participating in economic crime to avoid scrutiny. We welcome the new clause, and we look forward to the Minister’s response.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kevin Hollinrake)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Robertson. I appreciate the spirit of the amendment, and I also appreciate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North describing this as an excellent Bill—a very constructive point—but one that needs tightening up; I understand his points and applaud the efforts made by him and other Opposition Members to do so.
I am fully aware of the devastating consequences that such issues have on businesses, suppliers, supply chains and our constituents. I have a case of a gentleman called Scott Robinson who repeatedly closed his investment business down. It was called TBO Investments at one point and then became Mount Sterling Wealth. He effectively took his clients with him, and people lost huge amounts of money. They had provided money for him to invest based on supposedly low-risk investments, but he was actually gambling that money in very high-risk investments, and he did that time and again. I really sympathise with the spirit of the amendment, and I am keen to look at not just phoenixing but other types of situation where people deliberately take risks like that that have devastating consequences for consumers and businesses in our constituencies.
Gavin Newlands
The Minister says he will look at this and is sympathetic to the issue. For clarity, does that mean a later stage beyond the Bill or at a later stage of the Bill?
Kevin Hollinrake
In my view, it needs further work rather than just plonking the new clause in the Bill. There is a wider issue here and I am pleased to see that he seems to acknowledge that. Certainly, a piece of work is needed to look at this in detail. There are some measures in place already—just the pre-pack arrangements subject to Committee scrutiny. I will come on to that in a second.
There are existing provisions in the Bill that provide safeguards against the fraudulent phoenixing behaviour that the new clause targets. Section 216 of the Insolvency Act 1986 makes provision for restriction and prohibition on the re-use of a company name when new companies are formed, which is an intrinsic feature of phoenixing and one that the hon. Gentleman addresses in his new clause. That provision will be complemented by the new powers contained in the Bill. For instance, the registrar may choose to exercise the power to compel the production of information to help her determine whether an application to incorporate a company complies with the proper delivery requirements. They will include that those named as prospective directors can lawfully act as such, which would not be the case if they were barred under the 1986 Act from acting as a director of a company using a prohibited name, and the registrar would be empowered to reject the incorporation application. Furthermore, the registrar will have greater power to direct companies to change their names if they deliberately mislead in their purpose. Such powers provide the registrar with a powerful tool when considering new company registrations.
The registrar will be able to examine and interrogate information already held and share data with law enforcement partners and other authorities. That will allow other key characteristics such as verified identities, the registered office, proposed officers and business activities to be critically assessed with intelligence received to spot patterns of phoenixing.
If adopted, the new clause would be largely duplicative of provisions already in place or those introduced by the Bill. It would also erode the registrar’s discretion in the application of their powers as envisaged. There will be some instances when companies are captured by the new clause and are not culpable, but are merely victims of a legitimate business failure trying to start their enterprise. For instance, the new clause mentions companies that have
“been subject to winding up procedures”.
In that situation, they may be companies that have not necessarily gone into liquidation. There might be other legitimate reasons that those procedures have taken place, which may not be reflective of something that might be considered phoenixing. So, the registrar must be allowed to apply their powers according to the facts and information available. As I have said, I am keen to look at that, including the pre-pack rules, to see where we can tighten up on the matter to make sure those instances are minimised. For all those reasons, I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his new clause.
Gavin Newlands
I thank the Minister for his response. The new clause was very much a probing amendment and the Minister points out one weakness. It is a small new clause for dealing with quite a big problem and I may look to table a much more rounded amendment on Report. With that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 70
Bar on directors in breach of duties receiving public funds
“(1) A company with a director or directors which are in breach of the general duties outlined in Chapter 2 of the Companies Act 2006, or who have been found to have committed statutory breaches of employment law, may not receive Government provided funds or financial support, unless subsection (2) applies.
(2) A company whose director or directors meet the criteria outlined in subsection (1) may receive Government provided funds or financial support if such funds or support are provided solely and specifically for the direct benefit of the company’s employees.”—(Gavin Newlands.)
This new clause seeks to prevent directors who fail to comply with their duties as a company director or with employment law provisions from being able to access funds in instances where these funds are for the benefit of the company and not the company’s employees.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Gavin Newlands
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is like London buses—I am back. I do not propose to take as long to speak to new clause 70, which proposes to turn off the tap of public funding to those who have failed to discharge their duties under the Companies Act or who have failed to discharge their duties to their company’s staff. I mentioned Mr Skillen previously, and his local constituency got in touch with me to tell me that he is back in business and that his company had been in receipt of public funds. The aforementioned Mr Skillen is currently a director of four limited companies, each one coming after the winding up of HELMS. Those companies are interlinked via control and ownership structures. Through that, Government loan funding was applied for and granted just before Mr Skillen became a director and owner of a large chunk of the new enterprise.
My new clause is very simple and would prevent those who fail to discharge their duties from receiving public money or support for any company for which they are listed as a director. Mr Skillen’s modus operandi was to misuse and mis-sell under the Government’s green deal scheme, but he popped up a few years later at a company benefiting from taxpayer funding and is involved in the energy business as well. It is simply not good enough that policy interventions intended to promote a wider economic strategy, be it local or national, are manipulated and used by spivs who are able to hide behind company registration and face no barriers to their actions from the registrar, short of the nuclear option of being barred from acting as a director.
We have seen a number of cases over recent years of multinational companies, such as P&O Ferries and, not quite to the same extent, British Airways, breaching their duties as employers and breaching employment law. Indeed, the chief executive of the former happily admitted breaking the law while appearing before the Transport Committee’s joint session with the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee. Such blatant and open law breaking cannot be rewarded with taxpayer support, and the new clause would ensure that those breaching laws that are meant to protect workers cannot then dip into the same workers’ pockets for financial support. It would not impact on workers, because any funding, such as for a furlough scheme, would not be affected by the new clause.
Seema Malhotra
This is a useful new clause, in the spirit of some of the new clauses that we have tabled on what should and should not be available to directors who are in breach of their duties, disqualified and so on. The new clause, tabled by our colleagues from the SNP, would introduce new provisions that bar directors who are in breach of their duties from receiving public funds. Under the new clause, a company with a director or directors who are in breach of the general duties outlined in the Companies Act 2006, or who have been found to have committed statutory breaches of employment law, should not receive Government-provided funds or financial support unless it is solely and specifically for the purpose of directly benefiting the company’s employees.
This is an important debate, and I would be interested in the Minister’s response. When taxpayers find out that their money goes towards effectively supporting or enriching directors who are in breach of the Companies Act, there will be a real question about what the Government can do to further disincentivise and not reward those who are in breach of employment law or other areas of legislation. We support the sentiments behind the new clause and the arguments being made, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Kevin Hollinrake
I thank the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North for his new clause; again, I support the motivation behind it. Clearly, there are restrictions already. Where a director has failed to observe a specific duty under the Companies Act 2006, they will potentially find themselves liable to criminal sanction and disqualification. I accept the fact that we have not focused too much on that area in the past, but that is exactly why we are legislating in the Bill to make the registrar far more proactive in her work. Where an employer has committed a breach of employment law, the relevant statute will generally provide appropriate remedies either by way of a right of action for the worker—normally in an employment tribunal or the courts—or by way of state enforcement, or sometimes both.
The new clause seeks to isolate only two triggers for denying access to financial support. Although they may have merit as triggers, who is to say that there are no other matters of conduct on the part of either a company or its directors that might lead one to question the wisdom of awarding it taxpayers’ money? Obviously, that should be determined within the scheme rules. The hon. Gentleman pointed to a case in which a director was interlinked with four other companies. There are already restrictions on Government loans—covid loans, for example—which must be taken into account where there are interlinked schemes, and he is probably aware of that.
Gavin Newlands
I appreciate the Minister’s response. To pick up on a couple of his points, he said that there are already remedies available, but as we have seen there are far too few for employees who suffer at the hands of a nasty business owner. We have all seen such cases on the news or from our own case loads.
The Minister mentioned the regulations governing covid loans. Clearly, that is a very specific example, and he makes a fair point, but that is not the case for all public moneys. However, this is a probing provision and would require further work before I sought to test the Committee or the Chamber with a vote. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 71
Suspicious Activity Reporting: risk rating
“(1) The Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection 339(1) insert—
‘(1ZA) An order under subsection (1) must prescribe that a risk rating be included as part of a disclosure.’”—(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I will be on my feet for a bit, so I will try to be succinct—I know that Members have other things to do this afternoon. [Laughter.] It may be impossible for me. I want to say quite a lot about this new clause.
New clause 71 is about reforming of the suspicious activity reports regime. Ministers will accept that the SARs regime is a central tool in our defence against money laundering, but I hope they also accept that the current system is broken—it is not working. The new clause would introduce a new risk rating system, which would transform the efficacy and efficiency of the current regime.
SARs are very valuable and a vital source of intelligence. They are made mainly by financial institutions, but also by solicitors, accountants or estate agents, and they report suspicious activity. They have been absolutely instrumental in a range of successful actions against criminal activities, locating sex offenders, tracing murder suspects and identifying those involved in online child abuse, and they have shown how young women are trafficked into the UK. They have also been instrumental in closing down fraud and money laundering.
To give one example of a successful case involving fraud, a vulnerable elderly man in his 80s was the victim of a fraudster who had gained his personal details through a cloned website, when the elderly man believed that he was making a genuine investment. The reporter who saw the transaction going through was suspicious when the fraudster tried to impersonate the victim and access his main funds. He reported the transaction, and the UK Financial Intelligence Unit, which operates the SARs regime, received that report. The unit immediately passed it on to the enforcement agency—I wish this happened every time—which visited the victim in his house. The agency was then able to quickly contact the institution where the transaction was supposed to take place. It reported that the suspicious activity was wrong and confirmed the real identity and bank details of the elderly man, which all prevented him from losing in excess of £80,000.
This scheme is therefore important, and it is successful when it works well. However, at present, the sheer volume of SARs and the limited resources available mean that the information is not analysed and often simply not used. In evidence to the Treasury Committee, Mark Steward, the director of enforcement at the Financial Conduct Authority, said:
“More needs to be done in order to get more out of the valuable data that is in there. Otherwise, it just sits there.”
Graeme Biggar, also giving evidence to the Treasury Committee, as director general of the National Economic Crime Centre, said:
“Twenty years ago, we got 20,000 suspicious activity reports in, largely from banks. This year, we would not be surprised if we got three quarters of a million, and the number of defence against money laundering SARs, where we are told in advance and given the option to refuse permission to proceed, is going to double, we think, this year. The sheer volume coming through is really significant and very hard to deal with.”
According to research from Spotlight on Corruption, only 118 people handle the SARs. That is one employee to 4,250 SARs. The Australians, who have a similar enforcement regime, and who have also experienced an explosion in SARs, have a staff complement of one to 1,400—three times better than our own. The Committee has often talked about the relative budgets for enforcement of the UK and the USA. The USA has increased funding of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network by 30%, and its staffing by 50%. The Minister should recognise that the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s budget is now 15 times larger than the National Crime Agency, although our population is only five times smaller than America’s.
The Financial Action Task Force review in 2018 said SARs should be reformed, and SARs were criticised by the FATF. The Treasury Committee report in 2019 talked about SARs reform. In 2017, the Government had announced a reform programme for SARs, led by the Home Office together with the NCA. That reform programme constituted action 30 in the economic crime plan. The intent was to have an IT transformation, better analytical resources and capabilities, and an improvement in SARs processes. That SARs programme was reviewed by the Government’s Infrastructure and Projects Authority, and was given an amber rating in 2021. So reform started in 2017, the programme was given an amber rating in 2021, and today, in 2022, it is not complete and there is no timetable from the Home Office—maybe the Minister can help with that—or a target date for completion, which was a criticism the Treasury Committee made of the programme. Delivery was originally promised by December 2020, but we are two years on from that and we are a long way from seeing SARs completed.
In that context, new clause 71 introduces a risk-rating regime. I do not think anybody thinks that is a crazy idea, and I hope the Minister will—just for once—adopt one of the suggestions that the Opposition have made in Committee. I hope he will not say that we do not need the legislation. We are nearly six years on from when the reform programme was announced, and reform has not happened. The Government cannot, despite the best efforts of right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), ignore legislation, although they seem to be ignoring the desire to reform the SARs programme.
If Ministers want action, which they have consistently said they seek with the Bill, they should accept new clause 71. If they simply see this measure as party political, they should not. We do not deal with the funding issue in the new clause, but we will ensure that the focus is on the most significant SARs. That will lead to more enforcement. I urge the Minister to adopt our new clause.
Seema Malhotra
It is a pleasure to speak briefly in support of the new clause tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking. It would amend the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 such that any disclosure made as part of the suspicious activity reporting regime must include a risk rating. My right hon. Friend outlined very effectively the reasons why the new clause is important. Much of the evidence in our meetings at the outset of the Bill, which set out the context and stakeholder views, it was clear that the SARs regime was failing. The databases of referrals were going unreviewed and unlooked at, because the resources were not there. There was no effective means that we could see of prioritising SARs fed into the NCA.
SARs is an essential tool in our defence against money laundering, but if the system is not working, something needs to happen. Having an extra step in the process to help with prioritisation, look at risks and deal with those identified as higher risk would help, as my right hon. Friend outlined, to bring in quality, at a time when we know that quantity is the new battle. She said that the current estimate is three quarters of a million referrals, which is extraordinary. Given the scale and types of economic crime, the number of referrals is likely to get worse, not better. That is a good thing if we are starting to highlight and refer more cases as we start to clean up our systems. However, we then need to deliver on that; otherwise, the downside is that we will reduce confidence among those doing the referrals that anything will actually happen.
Nigel Kirby of Lloyds Bank said in his evidence to the Committee:
“I think the SARs regime and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 itself actually need—well, not necessarily to be turned upside down, but to be looked at as a whole.”––[Official Report, Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Public Bill Committee, 25 October 2022; c. 19, Q26.]
I think we have some agreement that the system itself is important, essential and necessary but that it needs wholesale reform to make it more efficient and effective and to ensure that it does what we ask of it.
The Minister for Security (Tom Tugendhat)
I thank the right hon. Member for Barking for the new clause. I will slightly gloss over one element and focus on something she mentioned several times—I always listen carefully to what she says—about the comparison between the FBI and the NCA. I take the comparison, but the NCA is not a direct comparator for the FBI. After all, the FBI includes the equivalent to MI5. It also includes counter-terrorism police and a lot of what we call regional organised crime units. It includes a lot of other areas of policing that simply do not come under the NCA’s budget, so the comparison of budgets is not apples and oranges; it is more like apples and cider—the bulk of one and the punch of the other are not quite the same. I hope the right hon. Lady will forgive me for saying that that is not entirely a fair comparison.
That said, the NCA does an enormous amount of good work and uses SARs in many different ways. I have the figure here: the UKFIU received and processed nearly 600,000 SARs in 2019-20. That has increased significantly every year. The action taken has resulted in about £192 million being denied to criminals in 2019-20, up 46% on the previous year. So this is something that we are already using heavily.
Dame Margaret Hodge
We all think that SARs is a helpful regime. I wonder whether the Minister has been given the information by the NCA. It got more than half a million SARs, but how much of that data did it use to get the millions that it got in? That is a heck of a lot of data, which should yield a huge amount of valuable information.
Tom Tugendhat
First, not every SAR leads to an actionable offence. Many of them are simply, and quite rightly, reports. They are reports because there are suspicions, but suspicion does not necessarily mean guilt. Many times these are companies that are taking on clients or that have clients who are suspicious, and they want to be sure they are doing the right thing so, responsibly, they report in. We should not confuse the absolute number of reports with a level of criminality. That would not be fair on the British population, those doing the reporting or the NCA, which is looking into these things.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
I did not mean to stop the Minister in mid-flow. He says that the number does not necessarily correlate to criminality. Is he concerned to hear that trust and company service providers have provided only 31 SARs, according to Graeme Biggar when he gave evidence to the Treasury Committee? A total of 31 seems impossibly low for the number of trust and company service providers, compared with what comes in from others.
Tom Tugendhat
The hon. Lady makes a fair point, but as she knows well that is not the point of the new clause, which is about the supervision of SARs and the ways in which they are checked and verified. That said, I have listened carefully to her and will have a look at that, because I do appreciate the point she makes. That said, I think these codes already enable the NCA to triage effectively, although if she has better ideas I am happy to listen and look at them further. However, I am to be convinced, because I think the Bill already addresses the areas she indicates. I get the point she is trying to make, but I am not sure that her suggestions would lead to a significant improvement on what is already there.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I am trying to untangle what the Minister said. If he is open to further discussions, I do not think that there is a rating regime. All we are saying is that there should be a rating regime so that the most urgent cases come at the top. My understanding is that that does not exist. There may be some form of triaging that I am not aware of. We just want to introduce a rating regime. If he is willing to engage in discussions before Report, I am happy not to put the matter to the vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 72
Office for Professional Body Anti-Money Laundering Supervision: powers and duties
“(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations set out a further power and duty for the Office for Professional Body Anti-Money Laundering Supervision.
(2) The power referred to in subsection (1) is the power to impose unlimited financial penalties on Professional Body Supervisors that fail to—
(a) adopt an effective risk-based approach to anti-money laundering supervision;
(b) impose proportionate and dissuasive sanctions for non- compliance with anti-money laundering requirements; and
(c) fail to separate their advocacy and regulatory functions.
(3) The duty referred to in subsection (1) is the duty to publish the details of any sanctions imposed on Professional Body Supervisors, and its reviews of Professional Body Supervisors with data disaggregated by body rather than by sector.”—(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 74—Failure to prevent fraud, false accounting or money laundering: director liability—
“(1) If an offence under section [Offence of failure to prevent fraud, false accounting or money laundering] is committed by a body corporate and it is proved that the offence—
(a) has been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body corporate, or
(b) is attributable to any neglect on the part of an officer of the body corporate, the officer (as well as the body corporate) commits the offence.
(2) For the purposes of this section, ‘officer’ means—
(a) a director, manager, associate, secretary or other similar officer, or
(b) a person purporting to act in any such capacity.”
Dame Margaret Hodge
I will speak for a little longer on new clause 73, but hopefully we will get through the others more quickly. It is probably one of the most important new clauses that we have tabled. It sits with new clause 79, which we will come to a little later. If we can make progress on this issue, we will be putting some better meat on the bones of what is still quite timid legislation.
We all want to do all we can to prevent economic crime from occurring in the first place. Prevention and early intervention is obviously the best, cheapest and most effective way of tackling the problem of dirty money. We want to stop it happening in the first place. We also all know that much economic crime takes place because lawyers, company service providers, accountants, bankers or estate agents either enable or collude with bad actors, helping them or turning a blind eye to the things that they do, thus enabling money to be laundered, crime to be committed, and our systems to be used to commit financial crimes.
There is currently too little in our laws and regulations that will stop the enablers—accountants and all the others—supporting and enabling economic crime. Companies and individuals are not held to account for what they do. The new clause aims to put a halt to that. We need to reform our outdated corporate liability laws so that not only companies but senior managers can be prosecuted if they fail to prevent fraud, false accounting and money laundering. It is not because we want to have endless prosecutions, or to fill prisons with these enablers, but because the threat of criminal prosecution will act as the best and most vital deterrent in preventing professionals from helping criminals to launder and manage their dirty money.
As we have said time and again in Committee, most professionals act with integrity. Those professionals with integrity have absolutely nothing to fear from the new clause. Indeed, the majority, who act responsibly, should welcome the change, because it will help us to clean up their profession, get rid of the bad apples and restore our reputation as a trusted jurisdiction. The Minister knows very well—I am trying to find the right Minister—
Dame Margaret Hodge
Both Ministers know that reform has been promised, and delayed, for a long time. The 2015 Conservative manifesto committed to making it illegal for companies to fail to put in place measures to prevent economic crime. The 2017 Ministry of Justice consultation on corporate liability reform sat for three and a half years. Inexplicably, it found that there was not enough evidence to pursue reform. I can only imagine that the Ministry was strongly lobbied. It said there was not enough evidence despite the fact that 76%, or three out of four respondents, said that the identification doctrine, which we will come to, inhibits the holding of companies to account for economic crime, and that two out of three respondents thought that corporate liability reform would result in improved corporate conduct. Despite all that, the Ministry chose not to pursue reform.
We then got the Law Commission’s review in 2022. It found that the current situation was “highly unsatisfactory” and that, on the status quo on corporate liability, “the identification doctrine”—for fraud and money laundering, the way in which we determine whether the people involved represent the “directing mind and will” of the company and can therefore be held responsible—
“is an obstacle to holding large companies criminally responsible for offences committed in their interests by their employees.”
The commission said that the status quo is “unfair” and that if the law remains unchanged it
“will continue to enable large companies to be acquitted for conduct which would see small businesses convicted.”
It also stated that that
“could diminish confidence in the criminal law”
and, finally, that the status quo incentivises poor corporate governance and
“rewards companies whose boards do not pay close attention.”
Given all that, I cannot think of a stronger indictment of the status quo.
There are endless examples of where our failure to modernise our criminal liability law has led to failure in the courts. The Barclays bank action is probably the most infamous, or famous, of them all. In 2008, during the financial crisis, Barclays wanted to avoid nationalisation and entered into a deal with Qatar, from which it received more than £11 billion and a loan of £3 billion. The bank, however, also set up what was called an advisory service agreement—in a sense, as I can say under parliamentary privilege, it was a bribe—and, under it, £322 million was given to those who facilitated the deal between Qatar and Barclays bank.
The Serious Fraud Office tried to prosecute the bank and its chief operating officer with charges of conspiracy to commit fraud and charges involving “disguised commissions”—in my interpretation, bribes. The court threw out all the charges, saying that the alleged criminal dishonesty of senior officers “could not be attributed” to Barclays. So the chief executive could not be held responsible for what the bank did, because the chief executive was not the bank, but reported to the bank. It was a crazy judgment. The court also dismissed cases against other individuals, as they could not be defined as the “directing mind and will” of Barclays.
There was, then, a Barclays fiasco, but there were other examples, such as the LIBOR rate-rigging scandal. No criminal prosecutions were brought, although the individuals prosecuted gave evidence that their managers knew what they were doing, so the company itself was liable. If the Minister for Security will allow this comparison, the US brought criminal enforcement action against 12 of the banks in the LIBOR scandal—British banks—and extracted $3.4 billion in criminal fines. Other examples include HBOS—to which the Under-Secretary often refers—Serco and the tagging contract, London Capital & Finance, and so on and so forth.
In 2022, four parliamentary Committees called for the reform of corporate criminal liability legislation. In February 2022, the Treasury Committee urged the Government to
“act quickly in bringing forward any legislation flowing from the Law Commission’s review. In the meantime, corporate criminals will continue to be able to escape prosecution for economic crimes.”
I probably do not have to quote this one, as the Minister might remember it, but the Foreign Affairs Committee called for
“reform of outdated and ineffective corporate criminal liability laws which mean that it is difficult to hold large companies to account for economic crimes.”
Dame Margaret Hodge
Anyway, I thought it was a speech in favour of the intent of this new clause.
Failure to prevent offences have proved effective elsewhere, as the Minister himself has said. We use them to tackle bribery and tax evasion, and the Minister always raises the best example when he refers to what used to go on in the construction industry. In my youth, people would regularly have terrible accidents on construction sites, some of which were fatal. It was only when a duty was introduced for those who ran construction companies to ensure the health and safety of their workers in the workplace, meaning it would be a criminal offence if they failed to do so, that miraculously, overnight, deaths on building sites came almost to a 100% halt. We have lots of examples of where a failure to prevent does not end up with people being locked up but does change behaviour. That is what we are trying to do.
I have lots of examples of areas where the Bribery Act 2010 has been successful and this is not one. This is the last legislative opportunity we will have in this Parliament to put into effect something that Members across the House think is important. There is so much evidence from so many bodies emphasising the importance of this bit of legislation. I cannot see any argument for delay. Before they reached their great, really important roles on the Front Bench, both Ministers argued passionately, frequently and loudly for this reform. I hope they will accept the new clauses, together with new clause 79, on the identification principle. With the inclusion of those three new clauses, we can hold our heads up high and say that we have done good work in Parliament.
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Robertson. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking. The passion and eloquence with which she spoke was exemplary in terms of reminding us about what is at the heart of the Bill and one of the top priorities that we want to achieve. I do not want to say much more; how can I follow that?
New clause 73 would introduce a new offence of failing to prevent fraud, false accounting or money laundering, and new clause 74 would extend that offence, so I shall take them together. In effect, the new clauses would extend current failure to prevent offences beyond bribery and tax evasion to other economic crimes, money laundering and fraud. The offences would be applicable both to companies themselves and to senior managers or directors.
The Labour Front Bench team welcomes the new clauses tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking as vital to help to drive cultural change and corporate governance standards for the prevention of economic crime in the UK. They would also standardise criminal rules for holding companies to account across different economic crimes.
The call for this change is supported by a number of stakeholders, including Spotlight on Corruption, which made the following argument in written evidence to the Committee:
“Most urgently, a new failure to prevent fraud offence would help address the UK’s serious fraud epidemic. Fraud accounts for 40% of all recorded crime, but fraud prosecutions have fallen from 42,000 in 2011, to 13,500 in 2021 in the last decade, a 67% decrease. According to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS): ‘an extension of the “failure to prevent” model to fraud, false accounting and money laundering would be unlikely to require companies to do more than what they would already be expected to do under the current law (which relies on the identification doctrine) but it would enable prosecutors to hold them to account more effectively where they fail to do so’. The heads of the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and the CPS have both recently called for new failure to prevent offences.”
I refer the Minister, in addition to the stakeholders that support the call for change, to his own words on Second Reading. I will not replay his greatest hits—that my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking has already done so—but he has stated clearly that he sees this offence as “the No. 1 measure” that we need. The Opposition fervently hope that both Ministers will agree with their former selves that this is the No. 1 measure we need in the prevention and detection of economic crime. We urge the Conservative Front-Bench team to accept the new clause as a necessary and urgent provision to tackle economic crime that would have support across the board.
Alison Thewliss
I, too, rise to support the new clauses, which are incredibly important.
“Of all the measures we have talked about today, this would have the biggest effect in terms of cutting down on economic crime, because lots of our financial organisations are complicit when it suits their interests to be so.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2022; Vol. 720, c. 309.]
If the Under-Secretary recognises those words, it is because they are his own from just a few weeks ago, on 13 October 2022. What a long time it has been; here we are today at the end of November.
It is important that we use the new clauses as an opportunity. As the right hon. Member for Barking said, this is an opportunity to make this change now and get it right. It cannot be said that the Ministers present do not agree with the measures. The Under-Secretary argued for a failure to prevent economic crime offence not just on 13 October 2022 but on 7 July 2022 and 1, 22 and 28 February 2022, on 2 December 2021, on 9 November 2021, on 22 September 2021, on 18 May 2021, on 9 November 2020, on 25 February 2020, on 19 July 2019, on 23 April 2019, on 18 December 2018 and on 9 October 2018. Why have we got to the point today where he is arguing against something that he has argued for so consistently and repeatedly in this House?
Alison Thewliss
I will if the Minister can give me an explanation as to why he is not going to back the new clause.
Alison Thewliss
I suspect that if it goes to a vote, he will vote against the new clause, so he does not even need to argue against it. If it goes to a vote, he and his colleagues will vote against something that he has consistently and repeatedly supported in this House. He knows in his heart of hearts that this is the right thing to do. I am very interested to know whether, if the Government will not support the new clause—whether it goes to a vote or not—they will introduce something similar on Report. Both Ministers know that this is the right thing to do. The opportunity is here in the Bill. If the opportunity is there and the will is not, that leaves huge questions for the credibility of the entire Bill.
Tom Tugendhat
I am delighted to speak on the new clause. As the right hon. Member for Barking correctly identifies, it touches on many areas that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I have spoken about on numerous occasions, and we are not alone in having done so. Section 172(1)(b) and (d) of the Companies Act 2006 speaks about the interests of employees and of the community being the responsibility of directors as well, so having an emphasis on directors’ responsibility in corporate legislation is not new. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has also spoken about it in building safety legislation, which the right hon. Lady cited.
There are many different examples of our recognition that the interests of the whole of society and of the whole United Kingdom are better protected when directors understand that they are there not simply to advance shareholder value, but to further the interests of the whole community of their employees and wider society in actions and responsibilities they undertake. Although I see all of the responsibility laid out and I take very seriously the point the right hon. Lady made, we still need to do a little bit of work on how this can be made to work. There are arguments, some of which hold water, about whether the 2017 money laundering regulations include elements that already cover some of these areas, and there are arguments about whether the Law Commission will want to look at different bits of this. I can assure the right hon. Lady that I will look at this extremely seriously, because she is absolutely right that the Bill offers an opportunity to introduce different reforms. I will look to make sure that any opportunity is fulfilled as quickly as possible.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I am grateful for that. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Companies Act 2006—I cannot remember which section. In the days when Tony Blair changed our jobs every year, I was lumbered with taking through the biggest Act in Parliament. We deliberately put that section in, in the face of massive opposition. At the time there was a front page story in the FT that said, “How dare you talk about any interest but shareholder interest?” But the provision has stood the test of time, I am pleased to say, and I am glad to hear him cite it.
I do not want to embarrass Ministers today by putting the issue to a vote. I know that they feel strongly about this, but so do we—really strongly. The Bill will not pass any litmus test of its potency if the new clause is not included. I know there will be resistance because the professions that would be subject to the new potential criminal liability are very strong in lobbying. They are probably strongly lobbying the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as well as the Treasury and other Government Departments. I say to Ministers that they have to resist that lobbying with every bone in their bodies, because this is not an attack on any profession. There ought to be a new offence that cleans up the profession, and we will pursue this issue right through every phase and stage of the Bill’s passage.
I want to say one final thing to the Minister. Of course we need to make the new clause work, but for goodness’ sake, we have the same offence in the Bribery Act and the tax evasion legislation, and it works perfectly well.
Kevin Hollinrake
The right hon. Lady makes a very important point about vested interests. We have previously discussed the influence of people who may not be keen on these kinds of clauses. I would say to anybody in the financial services sector who is making these claims that there are potentially huge benefits from preventing fraud across the board, because 70% of online fraud, which costs banks a lot of money, comes from platforms, and this kind of legislation could make the platforms responsible for removing content. So the sector could see benefits as well as potential new obligations.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I am grateful to the Minister for reinforcing my argument. I would add simply that the same is true of the online harms Bill. If we had director liability there, I think we would see a lot of the online harms disappearing, but that is for next week.
On how the new clause would work, we can mirror processes that take place in other bits of legislation. To say that it is already covered is a nonsense, because we would not have had the failure of the Barclays case and all the other cases that I cited to the Minister had we already put in place legislation that was appropriate for ensuring that companies and their directors are held to account. I will not put the matter to a vote, but this is a hugely important issue. I look forward to our debating it further at other stages during the course of the Bill. I wish Ministers well in their attempts to get it past the Government, but if they do not, Parliament will do so. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 75
The Economic Crime Committee of Parliament
“(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations establish a body to be known as the Economic Crime Committee of Parliament (in this section referred to as “the ECC”).
(2) The ECC will consist of nine members who are to be drawn both from the members of the House of Commons and from the members of the House of Lords.
(3) Each member of the ECC is to be appointed by the House of Parliament from which the member is to be drawn.
(4) The ECC will have the power to meet confidentially.
(5) The ECC may examine or otherwise oversee any regulatory, enforcement or supervision agencies involved in work related, but not limited to—
(a) tax avoidance and evasion by corporations;
(b) illicit finance;
(c) anti-money laundering supervision;
(d) tackling fraud;
(e) kleptocracy and corruption; and
(f) whistleblower protection.”—(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I have been promoting accountability for years now. In the work that I did with the Minister as we thought about how we could tackle economic crime and turn round the tanker, we always said there were four ways in which we had to respond. One was through having not more regulation, but smart regulation. The second was through tough enforcement. The third was through broad transparency—the ruling of the European Court of Justice last week is an absolute nightmare that could create real difficulties for us in the economic crime space. The fourth was accountability, and with the new clause we are suggesting a way for us to have that accountability.
There is interest in this subject across the House. The hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) has written a paper on these issues. Can we find a mechanism for holding the regulatory bodies properly accountable to Parliament for what they do?
A lot of these questions arose when I chaired the Public Accounts Committee and we first started looking at tax avoidance. The rule is that everybody should be equal before the law in tax, but there was always a suspicion that sweetheart deals were being struck with certain big corporations and high net worth individuals. In fact, early on we came across one involving Goldman Sachs; on the back of a story in Private Eye, we uncovered a sweetheart deal. To this day, though, I do not understand whether Google is paying the correct tax or whether there is a deal there, and I could say the same about a lot of the big multinational companies. Because of the confidentiality of taxpayers’ interests, Parliament has no way to get the information that it needs to assure itself that the tax authorities are treating all taxpayers equally.
I have worked with all the agencies in this area—the NCA, the Serious Fraud Office, the Metropolitan police and so on—so whistleblowers, or just people who come across something that is wrong, often come to me, and I give the case to one of the agencies—and that is the last I ever hear of it. I always pursue the cases, but all too often I get the response, “Oh, there are security reasons for you not being given the information.” There was the Savaro case, which I referred to BEIS at the time. It went through BEIS and I still do not know whether anybody was pursued. Certainly, there were people behind that explosion in Lebanon, which led to so many deaths and loss of property.
I think that Parliament needs a better hold on what is happening and better accountability around how those agencies are operating. In the new clause, we suggest that we mirror the Intelligence and Security Committee, which meets under Privy Council terms. The proposed economic crime committee could be a Committee of both Houses, meeting under Privy Council terms and overseeing all the regulatory bodies in this space—in financial services and economic crime. It could call for papers relating to individual cases, which would remain confidential because the ECC would meet in private. The ECC could then produce reports on systemic changes that are necessary, arising from consideration of those individual cases.
I think that that would massively improve accountability, as well as the performance and effectiveness of the agencies. With that information, members of the ECC would have a better understanding of what, if anything, they needed to do as legislators to improve the situation. I believe that this committee will happen one day, but I am proposing it today as a new clause in this Bill. I know that the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden and those who support him in this mission would be happy to support me today, and I hope that Ministers give it a good hearing.
Stephen Kinnock
I am happy to support new clause 75, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking, which would require the Secretary of State by regulation to establish a body to be known as the economic crime committee of Parliament.
The new clause is driven by and based on the fundamental principles of transparency and accountability. Our call for those two principles to be adhered to is important because it recognises that the structures for reviewing progress, and scrutinising and reviewing economic crime, are simply not good enough. There is too much siloed thinking. This aspect of scrutiny does not sit neatly within BEIS, the Treasury, the Home Office, or the Ministries of Defence and of Justice; it really spans the waterfront, yet those Departments are all vital parts of what should be a systemic approach to tackling economic crime.
The proposed committee would consist of nine Members drawn from the House of Commons and the House of Lords, with each member of the ECC appointed by their respective House of Parliament. The ECC would have the power to meet confidentially; it could examine or otherwise oversee any regulatory enforcement or supervision agencies involved in work related to, but not limited to, tax avoidance and evasion by corporations, illicit finance, money laundering, fraud, kleptocracy, corruption, and whistleblower protection.
We welcome the new clause as it would introduce a vital mechanism for transparency and accountability within the Bill. If the Minister does not agree with it, we hope that he will acknowledge that the existing mechanisms are unfit for the kind of joined-up, systemic, expert-driven scrutiny that is needed to keep pace with and keep ahead of economic crime. Throughout this Committee’s proceedings, my colleagues and I have tabled amendments and new clauses designed to increase the scrutiny and transparency of the measures that the Bill will introduce, so as to ensure that when they are implemented, they are as effective as possible. If the Minister is not able to support the new clause, Parliament and the country more broadly would need him to come up with something better.
Alison Thewliss
I wholeheartedly agree with the new clause. When the Treasury Committee looked at this issue, what struck me was that economic crime was nobody’s priority. Our report said:
“Economic crime seems not to be a priority for law enforcement. The number of agencies responsible for fighting economic crime and fraud is bewildering.”
If it is bewildering in that sense, it is bewildering to Parliament, too. This is a BEIS and Home Office Bill, yet it has huge Treasury implications and huge security implications, and that gets to the heart of why this new clause is so important. There needs to be a body in Parliament that holds all these agencies to account in one place. If BEIS does a little bit, and the Home Office does a little bit, and security does a little bit, and the Treasury does a little bit, there will not be the cohesive scrutiny of all those agencies that is needed. Committees could well be palmed off with different responses by different agencies, with nobody consistently holding them to account.
The work of the Treasury Committee is very wide ranging. We have two meetings a week, and that is not enough to cover all the issues we need to cover. Setting up a bespoke Committee that could build up expertise on this issue would allow for that accountability. It could meet in private if it needed to, although it would ideally meet in public. The point is that it would keep an eye on all the things that we have agreed to in the Bill, and we would be holding all these agencies and Ministers to account in a consistent way. The reports of the ECC would also, we hope, be taken seriously, and its recommendations implemented.
It is not really enough that the Treasury Committee or another Committee looks at economic crime every once in a while and sees how things are going. The Treasury Committee has done that previously, looking back at previous reports and asking, “How are things going now?” but there is not that week in, week out consistent scrutiny of what is happening. Without scrutiny and consistency, it is difficult to see how the Government will get this right. We are legislating here, but legislation cannot be put on a shelf and left; it has to be living legislation that is scrutinised on a regular basis. A committee of sort proposed in the new clause really would give Parliament a lot of power to ensure that these measures are implemented correctly and that the agencies responsible for economic crime, which affects all of our constituents, continue to be held to account.
Tom Tugendhat
The right hon. Member for Barking will not be surprised to hear that I am a huge fan of parliamentary scrutiny, not just of Government but of various issues that others have sometimes felt are not in the immediate remit of the scrutinising Committee. As she will be aware, I received some criticism when the Foreign Affairs Committee, which I was fortunate to chair, focused so clearly on economic crime in 2017-18—in fact, it was some of the first work that we did—because of the national security threat that it poses to the United Kingdom. Its importance in foreign policy is very clear.
The Treasury Committee has done an awful lot of extremely good work on this issue; over the years, it has done some excellent reports on economic crime. The Public Accounts Committee, the Justice Committee and others have also focused on economic crime at various points. However, while I completely understand the right hon. Lady’s argument, I cannot support the new clause, because it is simply not up to a Secretary of State to set up a Committee of the House. As she knows very well, that is a decision for the House; it would therefore not be appropriate to have that provision in the Bill.
I would add that there are various other elements that already scrutinise quite a lot of the agencies referred to. There is the Economic Crime Strategic Board, co-chaired by the Chancellor and the Home Secretary—I know it is within Government, but it is still a challenging body because it supervises the agencies of Government. Various other levels of scrutiny appear at different points, which help to oversee the function of the agencies and different elements that the Government are trying to deliver—that the ministerial element of the Government is trying to get the bureaucratic element of the Government to deliver. It is really important that we keep those intentions.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I am sure that, in that spirit, the Minister also accepts that scrutiny by the Executive is different to scrutiny by the legislature.
Dame Margaret Hodge
What we are seeking is scrutiny by the legislature. I take what he said, and will reflect on it. There is cross-party support for this concept; whether we have got it quite right is open to debate, and we will have to find another means of getting it debated in the House. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 76
Whistleblowing: economic crime
“(1) Whistleblowing is defined for the purposes of this section as any disclosure of information suggesting that, in the reasonable opinion of the whistleblower, an economic crime—
(a) has occurred,
(b) is occurring, or
(c) is likely to occur.
(2) The Secretary of State must, within twelve months of the date of Royal Assent to this Act, set up an office to receive reports of whistleblowing as defined in subsection (1) to be known as the Office for Whistleblowers.
(3) The Office for Whistleblowers must—
(a) protect whistleblowers from detriment resulting from their whistleblowing,
(b) ensure that disclosures by whistleblowers are investigated, and
(c) escalate information and evidence of wrongdoing outside of its remit to another appropriate authority.
(4) The objectives of the Office for Whistleblowers are—
(a) to encourage and support whistleblowers to make whistleblowing reports,
(b) to provide an independent, confidential and safe environment for making and receiving whistleblowing information,
(c) to provide information and advice on whistleblowing, and
(d) to act on evidence of detriment to the whistleblower in line with guidance set out by the Secretary of State in regulations.
(5) The Office for Whistleblowers must report annually to Parliament on the exercise of its duties, objectives and functions.” —(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
This new clause relates to another issue on which there is cross-party support: reform of whistleblowing. It has been put together for me, although it is in my name, by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mary Robinson), who leads the all-party parliamentary group for whistleblowing. I must put it on the record that she has been a fantastic campaigner in this area and an outspoken champion for the countless courageous individuals who have dared to speak out. As she rightly says, for most of those individuals whistleblowing has shattered their lives, with many losing their health and livelihood. What we are talking about here is really important.
Our new clause would introduce an office for whistleblowers, which would protect the whistleblowers and ensure that their disclosures are investigated and information provided is passed to the relevant authorities. In clause 4, we set out ways in which whistleblowers would provide that service. I think that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton is the Minister replying to this debate; I know that he is passionate about this topic, because he has said so on lots of occasions—most recently on Second Reading on 13 October, when he said:
“We do not protect or compensate whistleblowers, and that is wrong. Those people do the right thing and come forward but—not to put too fine a point on it —we hang them out to dry.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2022; Vol. 720, c. 309.]
He went on to say:
“It is pointless having lots of law enforcement people charging around not knowing where to look. Whistleblowers tell us where to look. Some 43% of all financial crimes are identified through whistleblowers, yet it is something we do not talk about. We do not just need more regulators; we need somebody to point us in the right direction. Regulators will always be watchdogs, never bloodhounds. We need the bloodhounds in the organisations who are willing to speak up if things are going wrong.”—[Official Report, 7 March 2022; Vol. 710, c. 121.]
Hear, hear to that, but let us have some action arising out of those passionate words.
Whistleblowing plays an absolutely key role in addressing economic crime, whether it is for money laundering or other crimes. Think of the Panama papers 2016—we would never have had them—or the Paradise papers, the Russian and Troika laundromats, the Azerbaijan laundromat, the FinCEN files and the Pandora papers. Let us look at just one of those—the Panama papers—which were 11.5 million legal documents held by the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca. It basically made its money by creating offshore companies and bank accounts to launder and hide the money. The story was given to a German paper, then 370 journalists got involved in investigating the data, working in 80 countries.
Just think what came out of that. Twelve current and former world leaders were named in those papers. There was a $2 billion trail to Putin through his close friend Sergei Roldugin, known as Putin’s wallet. The money went all over the world, including into an upmarket ski resort in Leningrad owned by a company funded by this dirty money and where Putin gave his daughter a sumptuous wedding. The Icelandic Prime Minister resigned off the back of the papers. The Pakistani Prime Minister was removed from office due to allegations of corruption and fraud.
Through the leak, some £1.2 billion of tax revenue was restored to 23 national Governments. In the UK, there was an extraordinary list of the rich and powerful, from Kevin Keegan to Nick Faldo, Lewis Hamilton, Tiger Woods, Gary Lineker, Madonna, Keira Knightley, Simon Cowell, Nicole Kidman, the Barclay brothers, Stuart Gulliver of HBSC, and political figures like Arron Banks, Michael Ashcroft and the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg). They were all named and exposed.
Going back to my Public Accounts Committee days, the work we did all came from whistleblowers in the area of economic crime. I referred earlier to the Goldman Sachs sweetheart deal. That emerged from a whistleblower—a lawyer working in His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. We had a very frustrating session. We knew something was going on, and we interviewed the head of tax at HMRC, but he would tell us absolutely nothing. I then got a bundle of papers from a lawyer who was working there, and in that bundle was a sheet of paper that had on it two things. It said that a meeting was held by the head of law, and he had said that the head of tax had shaken hands on the deal, which the head of tax had denied at the Treasury Committee. He also said that the deal was unconscionable.
We called back the head of tax and head of law and interrogated them. They still said nothing. Then my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South (Clive Lewis) said to me, “Put the guy on oath. He might tell you something.” That had never happened in a Select Committee. I turned to the clerk, who told me that I could put him on oath, and said, “Go and find a Bible.” It took them 20 minutes to find a Bible. But the point is that all that from a whistleblower led to the trail that I think has certainly ended up with me being on this Committee considering the Bill today.
What is so terrible about that story is that the then head of tax left public service, and I asked the person who became the permanent secretary in HMRC every time she appeared before the Committee, “Are you looking after that whistleblower? Is he okay?” She always gave me assurances that he was, but actually they raided his computer and telephone. His marriage broke up, and in the end life became so intolerable that he had to leave public office. It is one of the things I feel great shame about really—that I was not able even in that position to protect him, even though it was his revelations that enabled us to start discovering what was going on.
Whistleblowing helps everywhere. It is a vital way of revealing wrongdoing in all sorts of sectors. It was a child sex abuse whistleblower who helped reveal the child sexual exploitation in Rotherham. The NHS is full of workers who blew the whistle on things such as the lack of personal protective equipment. The Public Accounts Committee saw another example, relating to Serco, where a GP contract was done in Cornwall but they were lying about their performance. A whistleblower came to us, but Serco’s response was simply to rifle through everybody’s lockers to try to find out who the whistleblowers were. Serco was not interested at all in the fact that the information it provided was inaccurate, or in trying to improve the quality of the service.
Interestingly, whistleblowers in America are treated very differently, particularly on the issue of compensation. To give one example, in the JPMorgan case, there was a $45 million settlement after two whistleblower employees at a Georgia mortgage broker alleged that the bank had scammed a programme that was intended to make it easier for veterans to qualify for loans, and had submitted fraudulent claims to the Government. The whistleblowers were awarded $11 million. Facing the same charges, Wells Fargo later settled for $108 million. A whistleblower revealed massive robo-signing at the four banks that were the country’s largest mortgage providers. The companies had allegedly relied on a company called Docx to forge signatures on thousands of mortgage documents. The suit was settled for $95 million, and the whistleblowers received $18 million for helping to expose the fraud.
The Minister well knows the facts that I will give him now. In 2018, 40% of whistleblowers reported going on sick leave—that is the pressure in the workplace. Only 4% of whistleblowers who bring claims under the current legal structure succeed. Of the 1,041 whistleblower reports submitted to the FCA in 2021-22, only three have resulted in any significant action. The Minister must agree that enough is enough. We in this country cannot go on failing to treat whistleblowers with the respect, support and advice that they deserve. Our new clause starts the process of reform. It does not do everything—for example, it does not do financial compensation—but it is a start.
Finally, please do not just say, “We are looking at this.” Do not tell us you will come back. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
Kevin Hollinrake
The right hon. Lady makes an interesting point about how compensation works in the USA. She will be aware that Protect, the most high-profile whistleblower organisation in the UK, is against a compensation scheme similar to that in the USA. There is good reason for that: very few whistleblowers in the USA actually get compensation, which is one of the flaws in the scheme. Does she agree that we must think carefully about how we introduce whistleblower reform? It needs to be well thought through, rather than simply rushed.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I agree that we have to think carefully, but setting up an office for whistleblowing, which is what our new clause would do, could be the start. We might get some proper expertise in there, so as to think through some of the more complex issues.
Minister, grasp the opportunity and agree with our proposal. It would set up a new office—a central place for any would-be whistleblower to come for advice. It would support regulation in organisations. It would be a central place for setting standards, monitoring, evaluating and reporting. It would ensure that those who inflict or suffer detriment will be properly held to account or properly compensated. An office for whistleblowers would drive up standards across both the private and public sectors, increase transparency and restore public confidence. Whistleblower discrimination is a global problem, and the new office would set a global standard here in the UK.
Stephen Kinnock
I will be brief because my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking has, again, made the case so eloquently. We support new clause 76. The basic fact is that by their very nature, money laundering and economic crime are very often linked to serious organised crime gangs and hostile states. We are dealing with some pretty frightening people. Without adequate protection, the stakes for an informed insider blowing the whistle are simply too high.
New clause 76 would take those vital first steps to provide more adequate protection for whistleblowers and enable the greater detection of fraud and economic crime by establishing a body specifically set up to both protect whistleblowers and investigate their reports. We feel strongly that the Government must bring forward steps to protect and enable whistleblowers. New clause 76 provides an excellent and strong platform to make that happen.
Alison Thewliss
We also support this important new clause. In a recent speech, the Minister said that 43% of all economic crime was identified by whistleblowers, which illustrates why the new clause belongs in the Bill. We all know from whistleblowers’ stories that doing the right thing comes often at a significant cost personally, professionally and financially. It is important that we do anything we can to support those whistleblowers and to make sure they feel comfortable to go ahead and do what they do to ensure that we are all protected. I look forward to hearing the Minister supporting the new clause, because he has supported it umpteen times in the past.
Kevin Hollinrake
I think this is the last occasion I have to address the Committee, so I thank all Members for their contributions. We have had very constructive debates throughout the days that we have looked at the Bill. I thank the officials for all their work in these areas.
Not for the first time, I am very sympathetic to the new clause and to the previous one on failure to prevent. Nothing I have seen or heard since I started as a Minister only a few weeks ago has changed my mind on the things I have said in the House and other places about the need for whistleblower reform and failure to prevent reform. There is no conspiracy behind the scenes here. There is a difference between arguing against the principle of something and arguing against the provisions of something. That is where we probably differ a little.
As the hon. Member for Glasgow Central said, I have said before that 43% is the stat for the discovery of financial crime. In my experience, it is much higher than that—about 100%. Everything I have dealt with has been brought to the attention of authorities through whistleblowers, not least Ian Foxley, my constituent who was very important to the case on GPT Special Project Management Ltd that the right hon. Member for Barking referenced. He was the bloodhound in that case. We need those bloodhounds.
Since taking over as Minister with whistleblowing in my portfolio, I have asked officials to prioritise this review and to get it moving properly, and that is what we have committed to do. There are differences in where we go with it: do we do something to address the cases like Ian Foxley’s and the others the right hon. Lady references? Sally Masterton addressed those cases. Do we do something longer term and more complex? It is either low-hanging fruit or something more radical.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle has done fantastic work in this area. I am keen to engage with her and my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) to make as much progress as we can as quickly as we can. Ian Foxley’s case is interesting because he was prevented from getting compensation. He was very successful in getting that case highlighted and the authorities successfully prosecuted it, but he was denied compensation because the PIDA rules on what it describes as an employee did not cover his particular category. That is a relatively easy issue to fix and something I want to look at.
The other part of the current legislation is around prescribed persons. There are 80 prescribed persons at the moment: people to whom others can make a protected disclosure. We are extending that this week when I introduce a statutory instrument on extending the number of prescribed persons to whom whistleblowers can go to seek assistance. Indeed, some of those prescribed persons are in this room. Members of Parliament are prescribed persons, as are some Ministers, but so too are our agencies. That is probably my biggest concern.
I took the case of Sally Masterton, who was key to highlighting the HBOS Reading scandal, which I have referred to many times in Parliament, to the Financial Conduct Authority. When I asked Andrew Bailey, who was then the chief executive of the FCA, whether he had followed his own whistleblowing procedures in relation to Sally Masterton, who was terribly mistreated by Lloyds Banking Group, he refused to answer the question because I was not a relevant person, under the relevant legislation. That is quite astounding, when it was Parliament that legislated to introduce the whistleblowing protections in the first place.
There are things that we need to do quickly that would address many of the problems, but we have done much. We have improved the guidance on what a prescribed person needs to do. We have a requirement on people to make public annual reports on what they have done in terms of whistleblowers, but I am keen to hold regulators’ feet to the fire in this area. I ask the right hon. Member for Barking not to pre-empt the review that I am urgently undertaking, because she knows how serious I am. I would like to bring forward effective reform very quickly, and to effect change more quickly. I fear that the new clause would delay the reform, when we can make progress by other means.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I hear what the Minister says. I simply say to him that finding legislative time will be a battle, so I hope that he has some mechanism to get the reform through.
Kevin Hollinrake
There are things that we can do without primary legislation that could move much more quickly.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I hear that. This matter will be debated by others on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 79
Identification doctrine
“(1) A body corporate commits an offence listed in Schedule 8 where the offence is committed with the consent, connivance or neglect of a senior manager or senior managers.
(2) An individual is a ‘senior manager’ of an entity if the individual—
(a) plays a significant role in—
(i) the making of decisions about how the entity’s relevant activities are to be managed or organised, or
(ii) the managing or organising of the entity’s relevant activities, or
(b) is the Chief Executive or Chief Financial Officer of the body corporate.
(3) A body corporate also commits an offence if, acting within the scope of their authority—
(a) one or more senior managers engage in conduct, whether by act or omission, such that, if it had been the conduct of only one representative, that representative would have been a party to the offence; and
(b) the senior manager who is responsible for the aspect of the organization’s activities that is relevant to the offence — or the senior managers collectively — fail to take all reasonable steps to prevent that offence being committed.”—(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
This goes with the failure to prevent, so I will not speak to the new clause. It literally just sorts out the legalese to ensure that we can get at companies and their directors.
Dame Margaret Hodge
Yes, because I want it on the record. I am just conscious that Members want to get on, and that the argument is the same.
Stephen Kinnock
We fully welcome the new clause, which we think is very important to ensure that all perpetrators of economic crime are caught and dealt with.
Tom Tugendhat
I merely point out that, while the new clause addresses many of the points that the right hon. Member for Barking has raised before, it also raises many of the same challenges. For that reason, I will object to it.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I will not at this point press the new clause to a vote, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 80
Forfeiture of recoverable property obtained through economic crime
“(1) Where the conditions in paragraph(2) are fulfilled, a notice may be served in accordance with subsection(4) by the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Director of Serious Fraud Office, or the Director General of the National Crime Agency (hereafter, ‘the Director’) upon the holder of an account held at a bank in the United Kingdom.
(2) The conditions mentioned in paragraph(1) are that—
(a) the Director has reasonable grounds to believe that property held in the bank account is recoverable property obtained as a result of an economic crime offence;
(b) in relation to the bank account or any property in the bank account, a consent request has been made to an authorized officer under Section 335 of the Proceeds of Crime Act;
(c) an authorized officer refused the consent requested;
(d) a court has granted an extension of a moratorium period for 186 days under section 336A of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002; and
(e) a court has granted approval to the Director to serve the notice.
(3) A notice under this section shall be a notice by way of representation and shall—
(a) state the name of the holder of the bank account to whom it is addressed;
(b) specify the details of the bank account and of the property or part of the property in the bank account which in the opinion of the Director is recoverable property;
(c) state a date on which, and a place and time at which, the holder of the bank account is required to attend a hearing of the Court to show cause why the property so specified is not recoverable property and should not be forfeited; and
(d) be served on—
(i) the holder of the bank account, and
(ii) the bank at which the account in question is held,
and if an address for service on the holder of the bank account is not known, service on the bank only shall be taken as sufficient for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) In this section and section [ Forfeiture of recoverable property obtained through economic crime: summary procedure ]—
(a) ‘economic crime offence’ means an offence listed in Schedule 8 of this Act; and
(b) ‘recoverable property’ has the meaning given in section 304 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002.”—(Dame Margaret Hodge.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 81—Forfeiture of recoverable property obtained through economic crime: summary procedure—
‘(1) If the person on whom a notice under section [Forfeiture of recoverable property obtained through economic crime](3)(d)(i) served (the “respondent”) fails to attend the hearing as required by the notice, the Director may apply forthwith for a forfeiture order, and the Court may make such an order, without further notice to the respondent.
(2) If the respondent appears (whether in person or by a legal representative) at the hearing, the respondent may—
(a) at the hearing, satisfy the Court that the property is not recoverable property; or
(b) request that the question of whether or not the property is recoverable property be determined at such later date as the Court may order.
(3) If the respondent makes a request under subsection(2)(b), the respondent must provide an affidavit in answer to the notice within the period of 21days beginning with the date on which the matter is placed on the list, satisfying the Court that the property is not recoverable property.
(4) Unless the respondent satisfies the Court that the property is not recoverable property obtained as a result of an economic crime offence, the Court shall, upon the application of the Director, make a forfeiture order in relation to the property specified in the notice or any part of it.
(5) Property which is forfeited pursuant to a forfeiture order under this section shall be paid into the top slice of the Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme run by the Home Department.’
Dame Margaret Hodge
I will speak to this very quickly, too. This is an interesting new clause, because its purpose is to tackle the issue of suspicious wealth remaining frozen in bank accounts and serving no useful purpose. We propose a new, more straightforward, pragmatic solution to deal with suspicious wealth, enabling our enforcement agencies to confiscate the moneys in the bank and repurpose them so that much of the wealth can be used to fund and strengthen our anti-money laundering enforcement capacity and perhaps be given back, in some cases, to the nations from which it has been stolen.
When a banker sees a suspicious transaction, he or she is required to ask for consent from the police to allow the transaction to go ahead. If the police officer refuses consent, the moneys can be frozen in the bank account. Under our new clause, the money would then remain frozen for six months, and the director of the Serious Fraud Office could apply to the courts to confiscate or seize the moneys. They will be granted that application unless the respondent proves to the court that the funds do not have a criminal origin. The onus is on the respondent to prove that he or she has obtained the assets legitimately. The SFO does not have to prove that the respondent committed a criminal activity; it is up to the respondent to prove that the funds are legitimately and honestly acquired and are not linked to acts of criminality. The new clause is modelled on unexplained wealth orders.
This would add an important new weapon to our arsenal in the fight against economic crime, as it provides for the non-conviction-based confiscation of frozen assets. Although they are not my favourite people, the people of Jersey have introduced a very similar law and recently managed to secure £1.7 million that was frozen in accounts there. That was money paid to Lieutenant General Jeremiah Useni, who had held office in the Abacha regime in Nigeria, and the allegation was that it was the proceeds of corruption. Although he tried to get his money back, he could not, and a lot of the £1.7 million went back to Nigeria.
The British Bankers’ Association thinks that we have up to £50 million held in frozen accounts, untouched. We need a little touch of boldness from the Minister. He should not just accept the message of “resist” that he gets from his officials. He should give good consideration to this sensible, practical, good idea of seizing money stolen by bad people and giving it back to the citizens who have been robbed, or repurposing it to strengthen the fight against economic crime.
Stephen Kinnock
We welcome these new clauses, which would give effect to the Government’s stated intention to unlock the proceeds of crime held in bank accounts to fund law enforcement efforts to tackle economic crime. Their adoption would also optimise the potential of the defence against money laundering regime and streamline the process of UK law enforcement identifying tainted wealth and being able to seek its forfeiture.
Tom Tugendhat
I thank the right hon. Member for Barking. While I agree with the intent behind her new clauses, I argue that they narrow slightly the scope in which the state can already recover much of the proceeds of crime. While they attempt to simplify, the reality is that we are already recovering large sums. I am not saying that we could not do more—we certainly could—but I am not convinced that the new clauses would add significantly to existing legislation. Last year, for example, a record £115 million of proceeds of crime were recovered under existing powers.
Dame Margaret Hodge
That is not a brilliant argument, but I will pursue this issue on Report, as we are doing with other issues around seizing and freezing assets. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 84
Compensation for Victims of Economic Crime
‘(1) The Secretary of State must, no later than 90 days from the date on which this Act comes into force, publish and lay before Parliament a strategy for the potential establishment of a fund for the compensation of victims of economic crime.
(2) The strategy may include provisions on the management and disposal of any assets realised by the government, or any body with law enforcement responsibilities in relation to economic crime, under relevant UK legislation.’—(Stephen Kinnock.)
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish a strategy on the potential establishment of a fund to provide compensation to victims of economic crime.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Stephen Kinnock
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
As this is the last time I will be on my feet, I thank the Committee; it has been an excellent set of debates, and I look forward to further constructive engagement with the Government on these matters.
The context of new clause 84 is the devastation caused by Putin’s barbaric and illegal war for the lives and livelihoods of Ukraine’s population. This demands a concerted cross-party and international effort, of which the UK should be at the forefront, as the staggering costs of reconstruction are sure to remain a key challenge long after the war itself has reached its inevitable end.
The new clause would require the Government to prepare and publish a wide-ranging strategy for efforts to ensure that the necessary financial compensation is made available to victims of economic crime, wherever they may be. This could and should be applied to victims of international crimes, of which the war in Ukraine is without doubt an example, but it could be applied more broadly as a means of providing a measure of justice to the victims of any other kleptocratic regimes around the world. The new clause would provide a mechanism for compensating victims of economic crime in the UK, including the thousands, or perhaps even millions, of British victims of online scams and other kinds of fraud. We therefore commend the new clause to the Committee, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Alison Thewliss
If this is indeed the last opportunity I have to speak in the Committee, I thank the Ministers. I hope they have been listening closely to what we recommend and will bring back amendments on Report. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North for being so patient and helpful in supporting me throughout the passage of the Bill.
The new clause gets to the heart of the matter. Victims of economic crime often receive very little compensation but suffer greatly from the impact of the crime. It can be devastating for people, both financially and personally, and they are deeply affected by it for the rest of their lives, so anything that will go towards helping to compensate those victims seems like a sensible prospect.
Tom Tugendhat
As this is probably the last time I will speak in the Committee, I thank you, Mr Robertson. I also thank the right hon. Member for Barking for her input into the Bill not just today, but over many years and as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. The way in which she has championed tackling economic crime, drawn the House’s attention to it, and focused the country on the real threats that we have faced has been impressive to us all, and I am personally enormously grateful to her. She certainly helped my work enormously when I chaired the Foreign Affairs Committee, and she has now helped to focus my work as a Minister. I am very grateful that I have had the privilege of working with her.
Dame Margaret Hodge
I forgot to thank you, Mr Robertson, for chairing the Committee and for showing such an interest in what we are doing. I also thank the Ministers and Members of all parties who have spoken and participated. I look forward to working further to get even more into the Bill.
Tom Tugendhat
If anybody thinks that I was trying to soft-soap the right hon. Lady in order to shut her up in future sittings, they do not know her very well. It would have not worked, and I have not tried it. All I have done is to pay credit to somebody who has definitely earned it. I also thank my fellow Minister and the Whips, who have got us through at lightning speed.
On the new clause, the powers in part 4 already increase the focus on victims. The compensation principles of the Serious Fraud Office, CPS, the National Crime Agency and others have committed law enforcement bodies to ensuring that compensation for economic crime is considered in every relevant case, including where there are overseas victims, so I believe that the Bill already focuses on many of the aspects that we have discussed. That said, we are coming to Report. As always, I will be listening, but I have yet to be convinced about the new clause, because I believe that it has largely been covered.
Stephen Kinnock
Has the Minister any thoughts on the international forums that have been set up—for example, the Russian Elites, Proxies, and Oligarchs Taskforce and the European Commission’s Freeze and Seize Taskforce. What contribution are the UK Government planning to make to those processes?
Tom Tugendhat
I can speak directly to that, because I have recently had a meeting about it with other Governments and other jurisdictions. So far, many people have come up with ways to freeze assets. That is not a particular challenge; the UK does so very actively. Seizing and forfeiting in totality is a different challenge, because it depends on ownership and on many aspects of common law jurisdiction that we would not want to understate. I assure the hon. Gentleman honestly that I have not given up on this, because compensation for the victims in Ukraine is the very least that we should expect, as he correctly identified. Ukraine’s inevitable victory, which is absolutely assured, leads us to start thinking about how we reconstruct that extraordinary country. It is clear that Russian state assets held abroad—some, sadly, are held in the UK—should go some way to contributing to that.
That said, how do we construct the legal arguments to ensure that that is possible? They need to be in keeping with British common law, for obvious reasons. We do not want a jurisdiction of forfeiture; we want a jurisdiction of law. There is more work to be done, therefore. We are working very closely with other common law jurisdictions, such as Australia, Canada and, indeed, the United States. There is an ongoing discussion, but it is not quite as straightforward as I would have hoped.
Stephen Kinnock
I have no further comments, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Schedule 1
Cryptoassets: terrorism
“Part 1
Amendments to the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001
1 Schedule 1 to the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (forfeiture of terrorist property) is amended as follows.
2 After Part 4B insert—
‘Part 4BA
Seizure and detention of terrorist cryptoassets
Interpretation
10Z7A (1) In this Schedule—
“cryptoasset” means a cryptographically secured digital representation of value or contractual rights that uses a form of distributed ledger technology and can be transferred, stored or traded electronically;
“crypto wallet” means—
(a) software,
(b) hardware,
(c) a physical item, or
(d) any combination of the things mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c),
which is used to store the cryptographic private key that allows cryptoassets to be accessed.
“terrorist cryptoasset” means a cryptoasset which—
(a) is within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) is earmarked as terrorist property.
(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument amend the definitions of “cryptoasset” and “crypto wallet” in sub-paragraph (1).
(3) Regulations under sub-paragraph (2)—
(a) may make different provision for different purposes;
(b) may make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional, transitory or saving provision.
(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under sub-paragraph (2) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(5) In this Part—
“cryptoasset-related item” means an item of property that is, or that contains or gives access to information that is, likely to assist in the seizure under this Part of terrorist cryptoassets;
“senior officer” means—
(a) a senior police officer;
(b) an officer of Revenue and Customs of a rank designated by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs as equivalent to that of a senior police officer;
(c) an immigration officer of a rank designated by the Secretary of State as equivalent to that of a senior police officer;
“senior police officer” means a police officer of at least the rank of superintendent.
Seizure of cryptoasset-related items
10Z7AA (1) An authorised officer may seize any item of property if the authorised officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the item is a cryptoasset-related item.
(2) If an authorised officer is lawfully on any premises, the officer may, for the purpose of—
(a) determining whether any property is a cryptoasset-related item, or
(b) enabling or facilitating the seizure under this Part of any terrorist cryptoasset,
require any information which is stored in any electronic form and accessible from the premises to be produced in a form in which it can be taken away and in which it is visible and legible, or from which it can readily be produced in a visible and legible form.
(3) But sub-paragraph (2) does not authorise an authorised officer to require a person to produce privileged information.
(4) In this paragraph “privileged information” means information which a person would be entitled to refuse to provide—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, on grounds of legal professional privilege in proceedings in the High Court;
(b) in Scotland, on grounds of confidentiality of communications in proceedings in the Court of Session.
(5) Where an authorised officer has seized a cryptoasset-related item under sub-paragraph (1), the officer may use any information obtained from the item for the purpose of—
(a) identifying or gaining access to a crypto wallet, and
(b) by doing so, enabling or facilitating the seizure under this Part of any cryptoassets.
Initial detention of cryptoasset-related items
10Z7AB (1) Property seized under paragraph 10Z7AA may be detained for an initial period of 48 hours.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) authorises the detention of property only for so long as an authorised officer continues to have reasonable grounds for suspicion in relation to that property as described in paragraph 10Z7AA(1).
(3) In calculating a period of 48 hours for the purposes of this paragraph, no account is to be taken of—
(a) any Saturday or Sunday,
(b) Christmas Day,
(c) Good Friday,
(d) any day that is a bank holiday under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 in the part of the United Kingdom within which the property is seized, or
(e) any day prescribed by virtue of section 8(2) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 as a court holiday in a sheriff court in the sheriff court district within which the property is seized.
Further detention of cryptoasset-related items
10Z7AC (1) The period for which property seized under paragraph 10Z7AA may be detained may be extended by an order made—
(a) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, by a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, by the sheriff.
(2) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may not authorise the detention of any property—
(a) beyond the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the date of the order, and
(b) in the case of any further order under this paragraph, beyond the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the date of the first order; but this is subject to sub-paragraph (4).
(3) A justice of the peace may also exercise the power of a magistrates’ court to make the first order under sub-paragraph (1).
(4) The court or sheriff may make an order for the period of 2 years in sub-paragraph (2)(b) to be extended to a period of up to 3 years beginning with the date of the first order.
(5) An application to a magistrates’ court, a justice of the peace or the sheriff to make the first order under sub-paragraph (1) extending a particular period of detention—
(a) may be made and heard without notice of the application or hearing having been given to any of the persons affected by the application or to the legal representatives of such a person, and
(b) may be heard and determined in private in the absence of persons so affected and of their legal representatives.
(6) An application for an order under sub-paragraph (1) or (4) may be made—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, by a procurator fiscal.
(7) The court, sheriff or justice may make an order under sub-paragraph (1) if satisfied, in relation to the item of property to be further detained, that—
(a) there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that it is a cryptoasset-related item, and
(b) its continuing detention is justified.
(8) The court or sheriff may make an order under sub-paragraph (4) if satisfied that a request for assistance is outstanding in relation to the item of property to be further detained.
(9) A “request for assistance” in sub-paragraph (8) means a request for assistance in obtaining evidence (including information in any form or article) in connection with the property to be further detained, made —
(a) by a judicial authority in the United Kingdom under section 7 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, or
(b) by an authorised officer, to an authority exercising equivalent functions in a foreign country.
(10) An order under sub-paragraph (1) must provide for notice to be given to persons affected by the order.
Seizure of cryptoassets
10Z7AD (1) An authorised officer may seize cryptoassets if the authorised officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cryptoassets are terrorist cryptoassets.
(2) The circumstances in which a cryptoasset is “seized” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) include circumstances in which it is transferred into a crypto wallet controlled by the authorised officer.
Prior authorisation for detention of cryptoassets
10Z7AE (1) Where an order is made under paragraph 10Z7AC in respect of a cryptoasset-related item, the court, sheriff or justice making the order may, at the same time, make an order to authorise the detention of any cryptoassets that may be seized as a result of information obtained from that item.
(2) An application for an order under this paragraph may be made, by a person mentioned in paragraph 10Z7AC(6), at the same time as an application for an order under paragraph 10Z7AC is made by that person.
(3) The court, sheriff or justice may make an order under this paragraph if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cryptoassets that may be seized are terrorist cryptoassets.
(4) An order under this paragraph authorises detention of the cryptoassets for the same period of time as the order under paragraph 10Z7AC authorises detention in respect of the cryptoasset-related item to which those cryptoassets relate.
Initial detention of cryptoassets
10Z7AF (1) Cryptoassets seized under paragraph 10Z7AD may be detained for an initial period of 48 hours.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) authorises the detention of cryptoassets only for so long as an authorised officer continues to have reasonable grounds for suspicion in relation to those cryptoassets as described in paragraph 10Z7AD(1).
(3) In calculating a period of 48 hours for the purposes of this paragraph, no account is to be taken of—
(a) any Saturday or Sunday,
(b) Christmas Day,
(c) Good Friday,
(d) any day that is a bank holiday under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 in the part of the United Kingdom within which the property is seized, or
(e) any day prescribed by virtue of section 8(2) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 as a court holiday in a sheriff court in the sheriff court district within which the property is seized.
(4) This paragraph is subject to paragraph 10Z7AE.
Further detention of cryptoassets
10Z7AG (1) The period for which cryptoassets seized under paragraph 10Z7AD may be detained may be extended by an order made—
(a) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, by a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, by the sheriff.
(2) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may not authorise the detention of any cryptoassets—
(a) beyond the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the date of the order, and
(b) in the case of any further order under this paragraph, beyond the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the date of the first order; but this is subject to sub-paragraph (4).
(3) A justice of the peace may also exercise the power of a magistrates’ court to make the first order under sub-paragraph (1).
(4) The court or sheriff may make an order for the period of 2 years in sub-paragraph (2)(b) to be extended to a period of up to 3 years beginning with the date of the first order.
(5) An application to a magistrates’ court, a justice of the peace or the sheriff to make the first order under sub-paragraph (1) extending a particular period of detention—
(a) may be made and heard without notice of the application or hearing having been given to any of the persons affected by the application or to the legal representatives of such a person, and
(b) may be heard and determined in private in the absence of persons so affected and of their legal representatives.
(6) An application for an order under sub-paragraph (1) or (4) may be made—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, by a procurator fiscal.
(7) The court, sheriff or justice may make an order under sub-paragraph (1) if satisfied, in relation to the cryptoassets to be further detained, that condition 1, condition 2 or condition 3 is met.
(8) Condition 1 is that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cryptoassets are intended to be used for the purposes of terrorism and that either—
(a) their continued detention is justified while their intended use is further investigated or consideration is given to bringing (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected, or
(b) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected have been started and have not been concluded.
(9) Condition 2 is that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cryptoassets consist of resources of an organisation which is a proscribed organisation and that either—
(a) their continued detention is justified while investigation is made into whether or not they consist of such resources or consideration is given to bringing (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected, or
(b) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected have been started and have not been concluded.
(10) Condition 3 is that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cryptoassets are property earmarked as terrorist property and that either—
(a) their continued detention is justified while their derivation is further investigated or consideration is given to bringing (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected, or
(b) proceedings against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected have been started and have not been concluded.
(11) The court or sheriff may make an order under sub-paragraph (4) if satisfied that a request for assistance is outstanding in relation to the cryptoassets to be further detained.
(12) A “request for assistance” in sub-paragraph (11) means a request for assistance in obtaining evidence (including information in any form or article) in connection with the property to be further detained, made —
(a) by a judicial authority in the United Kingdom under section 7 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, or
(b) by an authorised officer, to an authority exercising equivalent functions in a foreign country.
(13) An order under sub-paragraph (1) must provide for notice to be given to persons affected by the order.
Safekeeping of cryptoasset-related items and cryptoassets
10Z7AH (1) An authorised officer must arrange for any item of property seized under paragraph 10Z7AA to be safely stored throughout the period during which it is detained under this Part.
(2) An authorised officer must arrange for any cryptoassets seized under paragraph 10Z7AD to be safely stored throughout the period during which they are detained under this Part.
Release of cryptoasset-related items and cryptoassets
10Z7AI (1) This paragraph applies while any cryptoasset or other item of property is detained under this Part.
(2) A magistrates’ court or (in Scotland) the sheriff may, subject to sub-paragraph (9), direct the release of the whole or any part of the property if the following condition is met.
(3) The condition is that the court or sheriff is satisfied, on an application by the person from whom the property was seized, that the conditions for the detention of the property in this Part are no longer met in relation to the property to be released.
(4) A person within sub-paragraph (5) may, subject to sub-paragraph (9) and after notifying the magistrates’ court, sheriff or justice under whose order property is being detained, release the whole or any part of the property if satisfied that the detention of the property to be released is no longer justified.
(5) The following persons are within this sub-paragraph—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, a procurator fiscal.
(6) If any cryptoasset-related item which has been released is not claimed within the period of a year beginning with the date on which it was released, an authorised officer may—
(a) retain the item and deal with it as they see fit,
(b) dispose of the item, or
(c) destroy the item.
(7) The powers in sub-paragraph (6) may be exercised only—
(a) where the authorised officer has taken reasonable steps to notify—
(i) the person from whom the item was seized, and
(ii) any other persons who the authorised officer has reasonable grounds to believe have an interest in the item,
that the item has been released, and
(b) with the approval of a senior officer.
(8) Any proceeds of a disposal of the item are to be paid—
(a) into the Consolidated Fund if—
(i) the item was directed to be released by a magistrates’ court, or
(ii) a magistrates’ court or justice was notified under sub-paragraph (4) of the release;
(b) into the Scottish Consolidated Fund if—
(i) the item was directed to be released by the sheriff, or
(ii) the sheriff was notified under sub-paragraph (4) of the release.
(9) If (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the property is connected, the property is not to be released under this paragraph (and so is to continue to be detained) until the proceedings are concluded.
Part 4BB
Terrorist cryptoassets: crypto wallet freezing orders
Interpretation
10Z7B (1) In this Part—
(a) “cryptoasset exchange provider” means a firm or sole practitioner who by way of business provides one or more of the following services, including where the firm or sole practitioner does so as creator or issuer of any of the cryptoassets involved—
(i) exchanging, or arranging or making arrangements with a view to the exchange of, cryptoassets for money or money for cryptoassets,
(ii) exchanging, or arranging or making arrangements with a view to the exchange of, one cryptoasset for another, or
(iii) operating a machine which utilises automated processes to exchange cryptoassets for money or money for cryptoassets;
(b) “custodian wallet provider” means a firm or sole practitioner who by way of business provides services to safeguard, or to safeguard and administer—
(i) cryptoassets on behalf of its customers, or
(ii) private cryptographic keys on behalf of its customers in order to hold, store and transfer cryptoassets;
(c) “cryptoasset service provider” includes cryptoasset exchange provider and custodian wallet provider.
(2) In the definition of “cryptoasset exchange provider” in sub-paragraph (1)—
(a) “cryptoasset” includes a right to, or interest in, a cryptoasset;
(b) “money” means—
(i) money in sterling,
(ii) money in any other currency, or
(iii) money in any other medium of exchange,
but does not include a cryptoasset.
(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument amend the definitions in sub-paragraphs (1) and (2).
(4) Regulations under sub-paragraph (3)—
(a) may make different provision for different purposes;
(b) may make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional, transitory or saving provision.
(5) A statutory instrument containing regulations under sub-paragraph (3) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(6) For the purposes of this Part—
(a) a crypto wallet freezing order is an order that, subject to any exclusions (see paragraph 10Z7BD), prohibits each person by or for whom the crypto wallet to which the order applies is administered from—
(i) making withdrawals or payments from the crypto wallet, or
(ii) using the crypto wallet in any other way;
(b) a crypto wallet is administered by or for a person if the person is the person to whom services are being provided by a cryptoasset service provider in relation to that crypto wallet.
(7) In this Part—
“enforcement officer” means—
(a) a constable, or
(b) a counter-terrorism financial investigator;
“relevant court” means—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a magistrates’ court, and
(b) in Scotland, the sheriff;
“senior officer” means a police officer of at least the rank of superintendent;
“UK-connected cryptoasset service provider” means a cryptoasset service provider which—
(a) is acting in the course of business carried on by it in the United Kingdom,
(b) has terms and conditions with the persons to whom it provides services which provide for a legal dispute to be litigated in the courts of a part of the United Kingdom,
(c) holds, in the United Kingdom, any data relating to the persons to whom it provides services, or
(d) meets the condition in sub-paragraph (8).
(8) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that—
(a) the cryptoasset service provider has its registered office, or if it does not have one, its head office in the United Kingdom, and
(b) the day-to-day management of the provider’s business is the responsibility of that office or another establishment maintained by it in the United Kingdom.
Application for crypto wallet freezing order
10Z7BA (1) This paragraph applies if an enforcement officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet administered by a UK-connected cryptoasset service provider are terrorist cryptoassets.
(2) Where this paragraph applies the enforcement officer may apply to the relevant court for a crypto wallet freezing order in relation to the crypto wallet in which the cryptoassets are held.
(3) But—
(a) an enforcement officer may not apply for a crypto wallet freezing order unless the officer is a senior officer or is authorised to do so by a senior officer, and
(b) the senior officer must consult the Treasury before making the application for the order or (as the case may be) authorising the application to be made, unless in the circumstances it is not reasonably practicable to do so.
(4) An application for a crypto wallet freezing order may be made without notice if the circumstances of the case are such that notice of the application would prejudice the taking of any steps under this Schedule to forfeit cryptoassets that are terrorist cryptoassets.
(5) An application for a crypto wallet freezing order under this paragraph may be combined with an application for an account freezing order under paragraph 10Q where a single entity—
(a) is both a relevant financial institution for the purposes of paragraph 10Q and a cryptoasset service provider for the purposes of this Part, and
(b) operates or administers, for the same person, both an account holding money and a crypto wallet.
Making of crypto wallet freezing order
10Z7BB (1) This paragraph applies where an application for a crypto wallet freezing order is made under paragraph 10Z7BA in relation to a crypto wallet.
(2) The relevant court may make the order if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that some or all of the cryptoassets held in the crypto wallet are terrorist cryptoassets.
(3) A crypto wallet freezing order ceases to have effect at the end of the period specified in the order (which may be varied under paragraph 10Z7BC) unless it ceases to have effect at an earlier or later time in accordance with this Part or Part 4BC or 4BD.
(4) The period specified by the relevant court for the purposes of sub-paragraph (3) (whether when the order is first made or on a variation under paragraph 10Z7BC) may not exceed the period of 2 years, beginning with the day on which the crypto wallet freezing order is (or was) made; but this is subject to sub-paragraph (5).
(5) The relevant court may make an order for the period of 2 years in sub-paragraph (4) to be extended to a period of up to 3 years beginning with the day on which the crypto wallet freezing order is (or was) made.
(6) The relevant court may make an order under sub-paragraph (5) if satisfied that a request for assistance is outstanding in relation to some or all of the cryptoassets held in the crypto wallet.
(7) A “request for assistance” in sub-paragraph (6) means a request for assistance in obtaining evidence (including information in any form or article) in connection with some or all of the cryptoassets held in the crypto wallet, made—
(a) by a judicial authority in the United Kingdom under section 7 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, or
(b) by an enforcement officer, to an authority exercising equivalent functions in a foreign country.
(8) A crypto wallet freezing order must provide for notice to be given to persons affected by the order.
Variation and setting aside of crypto wallet freezing order
10Z7BC (1) The relevant court may at any time vary or set aside a crypto wallet freezing order on an application made by—
(a) an enforcement officer, or
(b) any person affected by the order.
(2) But an enforcement officer may not make an application under sub-paragraph (1) unless the officer is a senior officer or is authorised to do so by a senior officer.
(3) Before varying or setting aside a crypto wallet freezing order the court must (as well as giving the parties to the proceedings an opportunity to be heard) give such an opportunity to any person who may be affected by its decision.
(4) In relation to Scotland, the references in this paragraph to setting aside an order are to be read as references to recalling it.
Exclusions
10Z7BD (1) The power to vary a crypto wallet freezing order includes (amongst other things) power to make exclusions from the prohibition on making withdrawals or payments from the crypto wallet to which the order applies.
(2) Exclusions from the prohibition may also be made when the order is made.
(3) An exclusion may (amongst other things) make provision for the purpose of enabling a person by or for whom the crypto wallet is administered—
(a) to meet the person’s reasonable living expenses, or
(b) to carry on any trade, business, profession or occupation.
(4) An exclusion may be made subject to conditions.
(5) Where a magistrates’ court exercises the power to make an exclusion for the purpose of enabling a person to meet legal expenses that the person has incurred, or may incur, in respect of proceedings under this Schedule, it must ensure that the exclusion—
(a) is limited to reasonable legal expenses that the person has reasonably incurred or that the person reasonably incurs,
(b) specifies the total amount that may be released for legal expenses in pursuance of the exclusion, and
(c) is made subject to the same conditions as would be the required conditions (see section 286A of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002) if the order had been made under section 245A of that Act (in addition to any conditions imposed under sub-paragraph (4)).
(6) A magistrates’ court, in deciding whether to make an exclusion for the purpose of enabling a person to meet legal expenses in respect of proceedings under this Schedule—
(a) must have regard to the desirability of the person being represented in any proceedings under this Schedule in which the person is a participant, and
(b) must disregard the possibility that legal representation of the person in any such proceedings might, were an exclusion not made—
(i) be made available under arrangements made for the purposes of Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, or
(ii) be funded by the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland.
(7) The sheriff’s power to make exclusions may not be exercised for the purpose of enabling any person to meet any legal expenses in respect of proceedings under this Schedule.
(8) The power to make exclusions must, subject to sub-paragraph (6), be exercised with a view to ensuring, so far as practicable, that there is not undue prejudice to the taking of any steps under this Schedule to forfeit cryptoassets that are terrorist cryptoassets.
Restriction on proceedings and remedies
10Z7BE (1) If a court in which proceedings are pending in respect of a crypto wallet administered by a UK-connected cryptoasset service provider is satisfied that a crypto wallet freezing order has been applied for or made in respect of the crypto wallet, it may either stay the proceedings or allow them to continue on any terms it thinks fit.
(2) Before exercising the power conferred by sub-paragraph (1), the court must (as well as giving the parties to any of the proceedings concerned an opportunity to be heard) give such an opportunity to any person who may be affected by the court’s decision.
(3) In relation to Scotland, the reference in sub-paragraph (1) to staying the proceedings is to be read as a reference to sisting the proceedings.
Part 4BC
Forfeiture of terrorist cryptoassets
Interpretation
10Z7C (1) In this Part—
“cryptoasset service provider” has the same meaning as in Part 4BB (see paragraph 10Z7B(1));
“crypto wallet freezing order” has the same meaning as in Part 4BB (see paragraph 10Z7B(6));
“senior officer” means—
(a) a senior police officer;
(b) an officer of Revenue and Customs of a rank designated by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs as equivalent to that of a senior police officer;
(c) an immigration officer of a rank designated by the Secretary of State as equivalent to that of a senior police officer;
“senior police officer” means a police officer of at least the rank of superintendent.
(2) Paragraph 10Z7B(6)(b) (administration of crypto wallets) applies in relation to this Part as it applies in relation to Part 4BB.
Forfeiture
10Z7CA (1) This paragraph applies—
(a) while any cryptoassets are detained in pursuance of an order under paragraph 10Z7AE or 10Z7AG, or
(b) while a crypto wallet freezing order made under paragraph 10Z7BB has effect.
(2) An application for the forfeiture of some or all of the cryptoassets that are detained or held in the crypto wallet that is subject to the crypto wallet freezing order may be made—
(a) to a magistrates’ court by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer, or
(b) to the sheriff by the Scottish Ministers.
(3) The court or sheriff may order the forfeiture of some or all of the cryptoassets if satisfied that the cryptoassets are terrorist cryptoassets.
(4) An order under sub-paragraph (3) made by a magistrates’ court may provide for payment under paragraph 10Z7CJ of reasonable legal expenses that a person has reasonably incurred, or may reasonably incur, in respect of—
(a) the proceedings in which the order is made, or
(b) any related proceedings under this Part.
(5) A sum in respect of a relevant item of expenditure is not payable under paragraph 10Z7CJ in pursuance of provision under sub-paragraph (4) unless—
(a) the person who applied for the order under sub-paragraph (3) agrees to its payment, or
(b) the court has assessed the amount allowed in respect of that item and the sum is paid in respect of the assessed amount.
(6) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (5)—
(a) a “relevant item of expenditure” is an item of expenditure to which regulations under section 286B of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 would apply if the order under sub-paragraph (3) had instead been a recovery order made under section 266 of that Act;
(b) an amount is “allowed” in respect of a relevant item of expenditure if it would have been allowed by those regulations;
(c) if the person who applied for the order under sub-paragraph (3) was an authorised officer, that person may not agree to the payment of a sum unless the person is a senior officer or is authorised to do so by a senior officer.
(7) Sub-paragraph (3) ceases to apply on the transfer of an application made under this paragraph in accordance with paragraph 10Z7CE.
Forfeiture: supplementary
10Z7CB (1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies where an application is made under paragraph 10Z7CA for the forfeiture of any cryptoassets detained in pursuance of an order under paragraph 10Z7AE or 10Z7AG.
(2) The cryptoassets are to continue to be detained in pursuance of the order (and may not be released under any power conferred by this Schedule) until any proceedings in pursuance of the application (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded.
This is subject to Part 4BD (conversion to money)
(3) Where an application is made under paragraph 10Z7CA in relation to cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet that is subject to a crypto wallet freezing order—
(a) sub-paragraphs (4) and (5) apply, and
(b) the crypto wallet freezing order is to continue to have effect until the time referred to in sub-paragraph (4)(b) or (5).
(4) Where the cryptoassets are ordered to be forfeited under paragraph 10Z7CA(3) or 10Z7CE(3)—
(a) the cryptoasset service provider that administers the crypto wallet must transfer the cryptoassets into a crypto wallet nominated by an authorised officer, and
(b) immediately after the transfer has been made, the freezing order ceases to have effect.
(5) Where the application is determined or otherwise disposed of other than by the making of an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3) or 10Z7CE(3), the crypto wallet freezing order ceases to have effect immediately after that determination or other disposal.
(6) Sub-paragraphs (4)(b) and (5) are subject to paragraph 10Z7CF and Part 4BD.
(7) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument amend this paragraph to make provision about the forfeiture of cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet that is subject to a crypto wallet freezing order.
(8) Regulations under sub-paragraph (7) may in particular make provision about—
(a) the process for the forfeiture of cryptoassets;
(b) the realisation of forfeited cryptoassets;
(c) the application of the proceeds of such realisation.
(9) Regulations under sub-paragraph (7) may—
(a) make different provision for different purposes;
(b) make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional, transitory or saving provision, including provision which makes consequential amendments to this Part.
(10) A statutory instrument containing regulations under sub-paragraph (7) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
Associated and joint property
10Z7CC (1) Paragraphs 10Z7CD and 10Z7CE apply if—
(a) an application is made under paragraph 10Z7CA in respect of cryptoassets,
(b) the court or sheriff is satisfied that some or all of the cryptoassets are terrorist cryptoassets, and
(c) there exists property that is associated with the cryptoassets in relation to which the court or sheriff is satisfied as mentioned in paragraph (b).
(2) Paragraphs 10Z7CD and 10Z7CE also apply in England and Wales and Northern Ireland if—
(a) an application is made under paragraph 10Z7CA in respect of cryptoassets,
(b) the court is satisfied that some or all of the cryptoassets are earmarked as terrorist property, and
(c) the cryptoassets in relation to which the court is satisfied as mentioned in paragraph (b) belong to joint tenants and one of the tenants is an excepted joint owner.
(3) In this paragraph and paragraphs 10Z7CD and 10Z7CE, “associated property” means property of any of the following descriptions that is not itself the forfeitable property—
(a) any interest in the forfeitable property;
(b) any other interest in the property in which the forfeitable property subsists;
(c) if the forfeitable property is part of a larger property, but not a separate part, the remainder of that property.
References to property being associated with forfeitable property are to be read accordingly.
(4) In this paragraph and paragraphs 10Z7CD and 10Z7CE, the “forfeitable property” means the cryptoassets in relation to which the court or sheriff is satisfied as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)(b) or (2)(b) (as the case may be).
(5) For the purposes of this paragraph and paragraphs 10Z7CD and 10Z7CE—
(a) an excepted joint owner is a joint tenant who obtained the property in circumstances in which it would not (as against them) be earmarked, and
(b) references to the excepted joint owner’s share of property are to so much of the property as would have been theirs if the joint tenancy had been severed.
Agreements about associated and joint property
10Z7CD (1) Where—
(a) this paragraph applies, and
(b) the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA (on the one hand) and the person who holds the associated property or who is the excepted joint owner (on the other hand) agree,
the magistrates’ court or sheriff may, instead of making an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3), make an order requiring the person who holds the associated property or who is the excepted joint owner to make a payment to a person identified in the order.
(2) The amount of the payment is (subject to sub-paragraph (3)) to be the amount which the persons referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(b) agree represents—
(a) in a case where this paragraph applies by virtue of paragraph 10Z7CC(1), the value of the forfeitable property;
(b) in a case where this paragraph applies by virtue of paragraph 10Z7CC(2), the value of the forfeitable property less the value of the excepted joint owner’s share.
(3) The amount of the payment may be reduced if the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA agrees that the other party to the agreement has suffered loss as a result of—
(a) the seizure of the forfeitable property under paragraph 10Z7AD and its subsequent detention, or
(b) the making of a crypto wallet freezing order under paragraph 10Z7BB.
(4) The reduction that is permissible by virtue of sub-paragraph (3) is such amount as the parties to the agreement agree is reasonable, having regard to the loss suffered and any other relevant circumstances.
(5) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may, so far as required for giving effect to the agreement, include provision for vesting, creating or extinguishing any interest in property.
(6) An order under sub-paragraph (1) made by a magistrates’ court may provide for payment under sub-paragraph (11) of reasonable legal expenses that a person has reasonably incurred, or may reasonably incur, in respect of—
(a) the proceedings in which the order is made, or
(b) any related proceedings under this Part.
(7) A sum in respect of a relevant item of expenditure is not payable under sub-paragraph (11) in pursuance of provision under sub-paragraph (6) unless—
(a) the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA agrees to its payment, or
(b) the court has assessed the amount allowed in respect of that item and the sum is paid in respect of the assessed amount.
(8) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (7)—
(a) a “relevant item of expenditure” is an item of expenditure to which regulations under section 286B of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 would apply if the order under sub-paragraph (1) had instead been a recovery order made under section 266 of that Act;
(b) an amount is “allowed” in respect of a relevant item of expenditure if it would have been allowed by those regulations.
(9) If there is more than one item of associated property or more than one excepted joint owner, the total amount to be paid under sub-paragraph (1), and the part of that amount which is to be provided by each person who holds any such associated property or who is an excepted joint owner, is to be agreed between both (or all) of them and the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA.
(10) If the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA was an authorised officer, that person may enter into an agreement for the purposes of any provision of this paragraph only if the person is a senior officer or is authorised to do so by a senior officer.
(11) An amount received under an order under sub-paragraph (1) must be applied as follows—
(a) first, it must be applied in making any payment of legal expenses which, after giving effect to sub-paragraph (7), are payable under this sub-paragraph in pursuance of provision under sub-paragraph (6);
(b) second, it must be applied in payment or reimbursement of any reasonable costs incurred in storing or insuring the forfeitable property and any associated property whilst detained under this Schedule;
(c) third, it must be paid—
(i) if the order was made by a magistrates’ court, into the Consolidated Fund;
(ii) if the order was made by the sheriff, into the Scottish Consolidated Fund.
Associated and joint property: default of agreement
10Z7CE (1) Where this paragraph applies and there is no agreement under paragraph 10Z7CD, the magistrates’ court or sheriff may transfer the application made under paragraph 10Z7CA to the appropriate court.
(2) The “appropriate court” is—
(a) the High Court, where the application under paragraph 10Z7CA was made to a magistrates’ court;
(b) the Court of Session, where the application under paragraph 10Z7CA was made to the sheriff.
(3) Where (under sub-paragraph (1)) an application made under paragraph 10Z7CA is transferred to the appropriate court, the appropriate court may order the forfeiture of the property to which the application relates, or any part of that property, if satisfied that what is to be forfeited—
(a) is within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) is property earmarked as terrorist property.
(4) An order under sub-paragraph (3) made by the High Court may include provision of the type that may be included in an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3) made by a magistrates’ court by virtue of paragraph 10Z7CA(4).
(5) If provision is included in an order of the High Court by virtue of sub-paragraph (4) of this paragraph, paragraph 10Z7CA(5) and (6) apply with the necessary modifications.
(6) The appropriate court may, as well as making an order under sub-paragraph (3), make an order—
(a) providing for the forfeiture of the associated property or (as the case may be) for the excepted joint owner‘s interest to be extinguished, or
(b) providing for the excepted joint owner‘s interest to be severed.
(7) Where (under sub-paragraph (1)) the magistrates’ court or sheriff decides not to transfer an application made under paragraph 10Z7CA to the appropriate court, the magistrates’ court or sheriff may, as well as making an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3), make an order—
(a) providing for the forfeiture of the associated property or (as the case may be) for the excepted joint owner‘s interest to be extinguished, or
(b) providing for the excepted joint owner‘s interest to be severed.
(8) An order under sub-paragraph (6) or (7) may be made only if the appropriate court, the magistrates’ court or the sheriff (as the case may be) thinks it just and equitable to do so.
(9) An order under sub-paragraph (6) or (7) must provide for the payment of an amount to the person who holds the associated property or who is an excepted joint owner.
(10) In making an order under sub-paragraph (6) or (7), and including provision in it by virtue of sub-paragraph (9), the appropriate court, the magistrates’ court or the sheriff (as the case may be) must have regard to—
(a) the rights of any person who holds the associated property or who is an excepted joint owner and the value to that person of that property or (as the case may be) of that person’s share (including any value that cannot be assessed in terms of money), and
(b) the interest of the person who applied for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA in realising the value of the forfeitable property.
(11) If the appropriate court, the magistrates’ court or the sheriff (as the case may be) is satisfied that—
(a) the person who holds the associated property or who is an excepted joint owner has suffered loss as a result of—
(i) the seizure of the forfeitable property under paragraph 10Z7AD and its subsequent detention, or
(ii) the making of the crypto wallet freezing order under paragraph 10Z7BB, and
(b) the circumstances are exceptional,
an order under sub-paragraph (6) or (7) may require the payment of compensation to that person.
(12) The amount of compensation to be paid by virtue of sub-paragraph (11) is the amount the appropriate court, the magistrates’ court or the sheriff (as the case may be) thinks reasonable, having regard to the loss suffered and any other relevant circumstances.
(13) Compensation to be paid by virtue of sub-paragraph (11) is to be paid in the same way that compensation is to be paid under paragraph 10Z7CM.
Continuation of crypto wallet freezing order pending appeal
10Z7CF (1) This paragraph applies where, on an application under paragraph 10Z7CA in relation to a crypto wallet to which a crypto wallet freezing order applies—
(a) the magistrates’ court or sheriff decides—
(i) to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3) in relation to some but not all of the cryptoassets to which the application related, or
(ii) not to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CA(3), or
(b) if the application is transferred in accordance with paragraph 10Z7CE(1), the High Court or Court of Session decides—
(i) to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CE(3) in relation to some but not all of the cryptoassets to which the application related, or
(ii) not to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CE(3).
(2) The person who made the application under paragraph 10Z7CA may apply without notice to the court or sheriff that made the decision referred to in sub-paragraph (1) for an order that the crypto wallet freezing order is to continue to have effect.
(3) Where the court or sheriff makes an order under sub-paragraph (2) the crypto wallet freezing order is to continue to have effect until—
(a) the end of the period of 48 hours starting with the making of the order under sub-paragraph (2), or
(b) if within that period of 48 hours an appeal is brought (whether under paragraph 10Z7CG or otherwise) against the decision referred to in sub-paragraph (1), the time when the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of.
(4) Sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 10Z7AF applies for the purposes of sub-paragraph (3) as it applies for the purposes of that paragraph.
Paragraphs 10Z7CA to 10Z7CE: appeals
10Z7CG (1) Any party to proceedings for an order for the forfeiture of cryptoassets under paragraph 10Z7CA may appeal against—
(a) the making of an order under paragraph 10Z7CA;
(b) the making of an order under paragraph 10Z7CE(7);
(c) a decision not to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CA unless the reason that no order was made is that an order was instead made under paragraph 10Z7CD;
(d) a decision not to make an order under paragraph 10Z7CE(7).
Paragraphs (c) and (d) do not apply if the application for the order under paragraph 10Z7CA was transferred in accordance with paragraph 10Z7CE(1).
(2) Where an order under paragraph 10Z7CD is made by a magistrates’ court, any party to the proceedings for the order (including any party to the proceedings under paragraph 10Z7CA that preceded the making of the order) may appeal against a decision to include, or not to include, provision in the order under paragraph 10Z7CD(6).
(3) An appeal under this paragraph lies—
(a) in relation to England and Wales, to the Crown Court;
(b) in relation to Scotland, to the Sheriff Appeal Court;
(c) in relation to Northern Ireland, to a county court.
(4) An appeal under this paragraph must be made before the end of the period of 30 days starting with the day on which the court or sheriff makes the order or decision.
(5) Sub-paragraph (4) is subject to paragraph 10Z7CH.
(6) The court hearing the appeal may make any order it thinks appropriate.
(7) If the court upholds an appeal against an order forfeiting any cryptoasset or other item of property, it may, subject to sub-paragraph (8), order the release of the whole or any part of the property.
(8) If (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the property is connected, the property is not to be released under this paragraph (and so is to continue to be detained) until the proceedings are concluded.
Extended time for appealing in certain cases where deproscription order made
10Z7CH (1) This paragraph applies where—
(a) a successful application for an order under paragraph 10Z7CA relies (wholly or partly) on the fact that an organisation is proscribed,
(b) an application under section 4 of the Terrorism Act 2000 for a deproscription order in respect of the organisation is refused by the Secretary of State,
(c) the property forfeited by the order under paragraph 10Z7CA was seized under this Schedule on or after the date of the refusal of that application,
(d) an appeal against that refusal is allowed under section 5 of the Terrorism Act 2000,
(e) a deproscription order is made accordingly, and
(f) if the order is made in reliance on section 123(5) of the Terrorism Act 2000, a resolution is passed by each House of Parliament under section 123(5)(b) of that Act.
(2) Where this paragraph applies, an appeal under paragraph 10Z7CG against the making of an order under paragraph 10Z7CA, and against the making (in addition) of any order under paragraph 10Z7CE(7), may be brought at any time before the end of the period of 30 days beginning with the date on which the deproscription order comes into force.
(3) In this paragraph a “deproscription order” means an order under section 3(3)(b) or (8) of the Terrorism Act 2000.
Realisation or destruction of forfeited cryptoassets etc
10Z7CI (1) This paragraph applies where any cryptoasset or other item of property is forfeited under this Part.
(2) An authorised officer must—
(a) realise the property, or
(b) make arrangements for its realisation.
This is subject to sub-paragraphs (3) to (5).
(3) The property is not to be realised—
(a) before the end of the period within which an appeal may be made (whether under paragraph 10Z7CG or otherwise), or
(b) if an appeal is made within that period, before the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of.
(4) The realisation of property under sub-paragraph (2) must be carried out, so far as practicable, in the manner best calculated to maximise the amount obtained for the property.
(5) Where an authorised officer is satisfied that—
(a) it is not reasonably practicable to realise any cryptoasset, or
(b) there are reasonable grounds to believe that the realisation of any cryptoasset would be contrary to the public interest,
the authorised officer may destroy the cryptoasset.
(6) But—
(a) the authorised officer may destroy the cryptoasset only if the officer is a senior officer or is authorised to do so by a senior officer, and
(b) the cryptoasset is not to be destroyed—
(i) before the end of the period within which an appeal may be made (whether under paragraph 10Z7CG or otherwise), or
(ii) if an appeal is made within that period, before the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of.
(7) The question of whether the realisation of the cryptoasset would be contrary to the public interest is to be determined with particular reference to how likely it is that the entry of the cryptoasset into general circulation would facilitate criminal conduct by any person.
Proceeds of realisation
10Z7CJ (1) This paragraph applies where any cryptoasset or other item of property is realised under paragraph 10Z7CI.
(2) The proceeds of the realisation must be applied as follows—
(a) first, they must be applied in making any payment required to be made by virtue of paragraph 10Z7CE(9);
(b) second, they must be applied in making any payment of legal expenses which, after giving effect to paragraph 10Z7CA(5) (including as applied by paragraph 10Z7CE(5)), are payable under this sub-paragraph in pursuance of provision under paragraph 10Z7CA(4) or, as the case may be, 10Z7CE(4);
(c) third, they must be applied in payment or reimbursement of any reasonable costs incurred in storing or insuring the property whilst detained under this Schedule and in realising the property;
(d) fourth, they must be paid—
(i) if the property was forfeited by a magistrates’ court or the High Court, into the Consolidated Fund;
(ii) if the property was forfeited by the sheriff or the Court of Session, into the Scottish Consolidated Fund.
(3) If what is realised under paragraph 10Z7CI represents part only of an item of property, the reference in sub-paragraph (2)(c) to costs incurred in storing or insuring the property is to be read as a reference to costs incurred in storing or insuring the whole of the property.
Victims etc: detained cryptoassets
10Z7CK (1) A person who claims that any cryptoassets detained under this Schedule belong to the person may apply for some or all of the cryptoassets to be released.
(2) An application under sub-paragraph (1) is to be made—
(a) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, to a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, to the sheriff.
(3) The application may be made in the course of proceedings under paragraph 10Z7AG or 10Z7CA or at any other time.
(4) The court or sheriff may, subject to sub-paragraph (8), order the cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant if it appears to the court or sheriff that—
(a) the applicant was deprived of the cryptoassets to which the application relates, or of property which they represent, by criminal conduct,
(b) the cryptoassets the applicant was deprived of were not, immediately before the applicant was deprived of them, property obtained by or in return for criminal conduct and nor did they then represent such property, and
(c) the cryptoassets belong to the applicant.
(5) If sub-paragraph (6) applies, the court or sheriff may, subject to sub-paragraph (8), order the cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant or to the person from whom they were seized.
(6) This sub-paragraph applies where—
(a) the applicant is not the person from whom the cryptoassets to which the application relates were seized,
(b) it appears to the court or sheriff that those cryptoassets belong to the applicant,
(c) the court or sheriff is satisfied that the release condition is met in relation to those cryptoassets, and
(d) no objection to the making of an order under sub-paragraph (5) has been made by the person from whom those cryptoassets were seized.
(7) The release condition is met—
(a) if the conditions in Part 4BA for the detention of the cryptoassets are no longer met, or
(b) in relation to cryptoassets which are subject to an application for forfeiture under paragraph 10Z7CA, if the court or sheriff decides not to make an order under that paragraph in relation to the cryptoassets.
(8) If (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected, the cryptoassets are not to be released under this paragraph (and so are to continue to be detained) until the proceedings are concluded.
Victims etc: crypto wallet freezing orders
10Z7CL (1) A person who claims that any cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet in respect of which a crypto wallet freezing order has been made belong to the person may apply for some or all of the cryptoassets to be released.
(2) An application under sub-paragraph (1) is to be made—
(a) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, to a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, to the sheriff.
(3) The application may be made in the course of proceedings under paragraph 10Z7BB or 10Z7CA or at any other time.
(4) The court or sheriff may, subject to sub-paragraph (8), order the cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant if it appears to the court or sheriff that—
(a) the applicant was deprived of the cryptoassets to which the application relates, or of property which they represent, by criminal conduct,
(b) the cryptoassets the applicant was deprived of were not, immediately before the applicant was deprived of them, property obtained by or in return for criminal conduct and nor did they then represent such property, and
(c) the cryptoassets belong to the applicant.
(5) If sub-paragraph (6) applies, the court or sheriff may, subject to sub-paragraph (8), order the cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant.
(6) This sub-paragraph applies where—
(a) the applicant is not the person from whom the cryptoassets to which the application relates were seized,
(b) it appears to the court or sheriff that those cryptoassets belong to the applicant,
(c) the court or sheriff is satisfied that the release condition is met in relation to those cryptoassets, and
(d) no objection to the making of an order under sub-paragraph (5) has been made by the person from whom those cryptoassets were seized.
(7) The release condition is met—
(a) if the conditions for the making of the crypto wallet freezing order are no longer met in relation to the cryptoassets to which the application relates, or
(b) in relation to cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet subject to a crypto wallet freezing order which are subject to an application for forfeiture under paragraph 10Z7CA, if the court or sheriff decides not to make an order under that paragraph in relation to the cryptoassets.
(8) Cryptoassets are not to be released under this paragraph—
(a) if an application for their forfeiture under paragraph 10Z7CA is made, until any proceedings in pursuance of the application (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded;
(b) if (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the cryptoassets are connected, until the proceedings are concluded.
(9) In relation to cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet that is subject to a crypto wallet freezing order, references in this paragraph to a person from whom cryptoassets were seized include a reference to a person by or for whom the crypto wallet was administered immediately before the crypto wallet freezing order was made.
Compensation
10Z7CM (1) This paragraph applies if no order is made under paragraph 10Z7CA, 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE in respect of cryptoassets detained under this Schedule or held in a crypto wallet that is subject to a crypto wallet freezing order under paragraph 10Z7BB.
(2) Where this paragraph applies, the following may make an application to the relevant court for compensation—
(a) a person to whom the cryptoassets belong or from whom they were seized;
(b) a person by or for whom a crypto wallet to which the crypto wallet freezing order applies is administered.
(3) If the relevant court is satisfied that the applicant has suffered loss as a result of the detention of the cryptoassets or the making of the crypto wallet freezing order and that the circumstances are exceptional, the relevant court may order compensation to be paid to the applicant.
(4) The amount of compensation to be paid is the amount the relevant court thinks reasonable, having regard to the loss suffered and any other relevant circumstances.
(5) If the cryptoassets were seized, or the crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by an officer of Revenue and Customs, the compensation is to be paid by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
(6) If the cryptoassets were seized, or the crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by a constable, the compensation is to be paid as follows—
(a) in the case of a constable of a police force in England and Wales, it is to be paid out of the police fund from which the expenses of the police force are met;
(b) in the case of a constable of the Police Service of Scotland, it is to be paid by the Scottish Police Authority;
(c) in the case of a police officer within the meaning of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000, it is to be paid out of money provided by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
(7) If the cryptoassets were seized, or the crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by a counter-terrorism financial investigator, the compensation is to be paid as follows—
(a) in the case of a counter-terrorism financial investigator who was—
(i) a member of the civilian staff of a police force (including the metropolitan police force), within the meaning of Part 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, or
(ii) a member of staff of the City of London police force,
it is to be paid out of the police fund from which the expenses of the police force are met;
(b) in the case of a counter-terrorism financial investigator who was a member of staff of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, it is to be paid out of money provided by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
(8) If the cryptoassets were seized, or the crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by an immigration officer, the compensation is to be paid by the Secretary of State.
(9) If an order under paragraph 10Z7BB, 10Z7CA, 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE is made in respect of some of the cryptoassets detained or held, this paragraph has effect in relation to the remainder.
(10) This paragraph does not apply if the relevant court makes an order under paragraph 10Z7CK or 10Z7CL.
(11) In this paragraph “relevant court” means—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, the sheriff.
Part 4BD
Conversion of cryptoassets
Interpretation
10Z7D (1) In this Part—
“converted cryptoassets” is to be read in accordance with paragraphs 10Z7DC and 10Z7DD;
“crypto wallet freezing order” has the same meaning as in Part 4BB (see paragraph 10Z7B(6));
“relevant court” means—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a magistrates’ court;
(b) in Scotland, the sheriff;
“relevant financial institution” has the same meaning as in Part 4B (see paragraph 10Q);
“UK-connected cryptoasset service provider” has the same meaning as in Part 4BB (see paragraph 10Z7B(7)).
(2) Paragraph 10Z7B(6)(b) (administration of crypto wallets) applies in relation to this Part as it applies in relation to Part 4BB.
(3) In this Part references to the conversion of cryptoassets into money are references to the conversion of cryptoassets into—
(a) cash, or
(b) money held in an account maintained with a relevant financial institution.
(4) For the purposes of Parts 2 to 4, converted cryptoassets detained under this Part are not to be treated as cash detained under this Schedule.
Detained cryptoassets: conversion
10Z7DA (1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies while any cryptoassets are detained in pursuance of an order under paragraph 10Z7AE or 10Z7AG (including where cryptoassets are subject to forfeiture proceedings).
(2) A person within sub-paragraph (3) may apply to the relevant court for an order requiring all of the cryptoassets detained pursuant to the order to be converted into money.
(3) The following persons are within this sub-paragraph—
(a) an authorised officer;
(b) a person from whom the cryptoassets were seized.
(4) In deciding whether to make an order under this paragraph, the court must have regard to whether the cryptoassets (as a whole) are likely to suffer a significant loss in value during the period before they are released or forfeited (including the period during which an appeal against an order for forfeiture may be made).
(5) Before making an order under this paragraph the court must give an opportunity to be heard to—
(a) the parties to the proceedings, and
(b) any other person who may be affected by its decision.
(6) As soon as practicable after an order is made under this paragraph, an authorised officer must convert the cryptoassets, or arrange for the cryptoassets to be converted, into money.
(7) The conversion of cryptoassets under sub-paragraph (6) must be carried out, so far as practicable, in the manner best calculated to maximise the amount of money obtained for the cryptoassets.
(8) At the first opportunity after the cryptoassets are converted, the authorised officer must arrange for the amount of money obtained for the cryptoassets to be paid into an interest-bearing account and held there.
(9) Interest accruing on the amount is to be added to it on its forfeiture or release.
(10) Where cryptoassets are converted into money in accordance with an order made under this paragraph—
(a) the cryptoassets are no longer to be treated as being detained in pursuance of an order under paragraph 10Z7AE or 10Z7AG, and
(b) any application made under paragraph 10Z7CA(2) in relation to the cryptoassets which has not yet been determined or otherwise disposed of (including under paragraph 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE) is to be treated as if it were an application made under paragraph 10Z7DG(2) in relation to the converted cryptoassets.
(11) An order made under this paragraph must provide for notice to be given to persons affected by the order.
(12) No appeal may be made against an order made under this paragraph.
Frozen crypto wallet: conversion
10Z7DB (1) This paragraph applies while a crypto wallet freezing order under paragraph 10Z7BB has effect (including where cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet that is subject to a crypto wallet freezing order are subject to forfeiture proceedings).
(2) A person within sub-paragraph (3) may apply to the relevant court for an order requiring all of the cryptoassets held in the crypto wallet to be converted into money.
(3) The following persons are within this sub-paragraph—
(a) an authorised officer;
(b) a person by or for whom the crypto wallet is administered.
(4) In deciding whether to make an order under this paragraph, the court must have regard to whether the cryptoassets (as a whole) are likely to suffer a significant loss in value during the period before—
(a) the crypto wallet freezing order ceases to have effect, or
(b) the cryptoassets are forfeited (including the period during which an appeal against an order for forfeiture may be made).
(5) Before making an order under this paragraph the court must give an opportunity to be heard to—
(a) the parties to the proceedings, and
(b) any other person who may be affected by its decision.
(6) As soon as practicable after an order is made under this paragraph, the UK-connected cryptoasset service provider that administers the crypto wallet must convert the cryptoassets, or arrange for the cryptoassets to be converted, into money.
(7) The conversion of cryptoassets under sub-paragraph (6) must be carried out, so far as practicable, in the manner best calculated to maximise the amount of money obtained for the cryptoassets.
(8) At the first opportunity after the cryptoassets are converted, the UK-connected cryptoasset service provider must arrange for the amount of money obtained for the cryptoassets to be paid into an interest-bearing account nominated by an authorised officer and held there.
(9) But—
(a) the UK-connected cryptoasset service provider may deduct any reasonable expenses incurred by the provider in connection with the conversion of the cryptoassets, and
(b) the amount to be treated as the proceeds of the conversion of the cryptoassets is to be reduced accordingly.
(10) Interest accruing on the amount obtained for the cryptoassets is to be added to it on its forfeiture or release.
(11) Where cryptoassets are converted in accordance with an order made under this paragraph—
(a) the crypto wallet freezing order ceases to have effect,
(b) any application made under paragraph 10Z7CA(2) in relation to the cryptoassets which has not yet been determined or otherwise disposed of (including under paragraph 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE) is to be treated as if it were an application made under paragraph 10Z7DG(2) in relation to the converted cryptoassets, and
(c) any application made under paragraph 10Z7CF(2) in relation to the crypto wallet which has not yet been determined or otherwise disposed of may not be proceeded with.
(12) An order made under this paragraph must provide for notice to be given to persons affected by the order.
(13) No appeal may be made against an order made under this paragraph.
Conversion: existing forfeiture proceedings
10Z7DC (1) Where—
(a) cryptoassets are forfeited under paragraph 10Z7CA or 10Z7CE, and
(b) before the cryptoassets are realised or destroyed in accordance with paragraph 10Z7CI, an order is made under paragraph 10Z7DA requiring the cryptoassets to be converted into money,
paragraph 10Z7DJ(1) applies in relation to the converted cryptoassets as if they had been detained under paragraph 10Z7DD and forfeited under paragraph 10Z7DG (and accordingly paragraph 10Z7CI ceases to apply).
(2) Where—
(a) cryptoassets are forfeited under paragraph 10Z7CA or 10Z7CE, and
(b) before the cryptoassets are realised or destroyed in accordance with paragraph 10Z7CI, an order is made under paragraph 10Z7DB requiring the cryptoassets to be converted into money,
paragraph 10Z7DJ(2) applies in relation to the converted cryptoassets as if they had been detained under paragraph 10Z7DE and forfeited under paragraph 10Z7DG (and accordingly paragraph 10Z7CI ceases to apply).
(3) Where—
(a) an appeal may be made under paragraph 10Z7CG(1) or (2) in relation to the determination of an application under paragraph 10Z7CA(2) for the forfeiture of cryptoassets (including where paragraph 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE applies), and
(b) an order is made under paragraph 10Z7DA or 10Z7DB requiring the cryptoassets to be converted into money,
the appeal may instead be made under paragraph 10Z7DH (within the time allowed by paragraph 10Z7CG(4)) as if it were an appeal against the determination of an application under paragraph 10Z7DG.
(4) Where—
(a) an appeal is made under paragraph 10Z7CG(1) or (2) in relation to the determination of an application under paragraph 10Z7CA(2) for the forfeiture of cryptoassets (including where paragraph 10Z7CD or 10Z7CE applies), and
(b) before the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of, an order is made under paragraph 10Z7DA or 10Z7DB requiring the cryptoassets to be converted into money,
the appeal is to be treated as if it had been made under paragraph 10Z7DH(1) in relation to the determination of an application under paragraph 10Z7DG for the forfeiture of the converted cryptoassets.
Detained cryptoassets: detention of proceeds of conversion
10Z7DD (1) This paragraph applies where cryptoassets are converted into money in accordance with an order under paragraph 10Z7DA.
(2) The proceeds of the conversion (the “converted cryptoassets”) may be detained initially until the end of the period that the cryptoassets could, immediately before the conversion, have been detained under Part 4BA (ignoring the possibility of any extension of that period).
(3) The period for which the converted cryptoassets may be detained may be extended by an order made by the relevant court.
(4) An order under sub-paragraph (3) may not authorise the detention of the converted cryptoassets beyond the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the relevant date; but this is subject to sub-paragraph (5).
(5) The relevant court may make an order for the period of 2 years in sub-paragraph (4) to be extended to a period of up to 3 years beginning with the relevant date.
(6) In sub-paragraphs (4) and (5) “the relevant date” means the date on which the first order under paragraph 10Z7AE or 10Z7AG (as the case may be) was made in relation to the cryptoassets.
(7) An application for an order under sub-paragraph (3) or (5) may be made—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, by a procurator fiscal.
(8) The relevant court may make an order under sub-paragraph (3) only if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the converted cryptoassets to be further detained—
(a) are within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) are property earmarked as terrorist property.
(9) The relevant court may make an order under sub-paragraph (5) only if satisfied that a request for assistance is outstanding in relation to the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1).
(10) A “request for assistance” in sub-paragraph (9) means a request for assistance in obtaining evidence (including information in any form or article) in connection with the cryptoassets, made—
(a) by a judicial authority in the United Kingdom under section 7 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, or
(b) by an authorised officer, to an authority exercising equivalent functions in a foreign country.
Frozen crypto wallets: detention of proceeds of conversion
10Z7DE (1) This paragraph applies where cryptoassets held in a crypto wallet subject to a crypto wallet freezing order are converted into money in accordance with an order under paragraph 10Z7DB.
(2) The proceeds of the conversion (the “converted cryptoassets”) may be detained initially until the end of the period that the crypto wallet freezing order was, immediately before the conversion, due to have effect under Part 4BB (ignoring the possibility of any extension of that period).
(3) The period for which the converted cryptoassets may be detained may be extended by an order made by the relevant court.
(4) An order under sub-paragraph (3) may not authorise the detention of the converted cryptoassets beyond the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the day on which the crypto wallet freezing order was made; but this is subject to sub-paragraph (5).
(5) The relevant court may make an order for the period of 2 years in sub-paragraph (4) to be extended to a period of up to 3 years beginning with the day on which the crypto wallet freezing order was made.
(6) An application for an order under sub-paragraph (3) or (5) may be made—
(a) in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, by a procurator fiscal.
(7) The relevant court may make an order under sub-paragraph (3) only if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the converted cryptoassets to be further detained—
(a) are within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) are property earmarked as terrorist property.
(8) The relevant court may make an order under sub-paragraph (5) only if satisfied that a request for assistance is outstanding in relation to the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1).
(9) A “request for assistance” in sub-paragraph (8) means a request for assistance in obtaining evidence (including information in any form or article) in connection with the cryptoassets, made—
(a) by a judicial authority in the United Kingdom under section 7 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, or
(b) by an authorised officer, to an authority exercising equivalent functions in a foreign country.
Release of detained converted cryptoassets
10Z7DF (1) This paragraph applies while any converted cryptoassets are detained under paragraph 10Z7DD or 10Z7DE.
(2) The relevant court may, subject to sub-paragraph (7), direct the release of the whole or any part of the converted cryptoassets if the following condition is met.
(3) The condition is that, on an application by the relevant person, the court is not satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the converted cryptoassets to be released—
(a) are within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) are property earmarked as terrorist property.
(4) In sub-paragraph (3) “the relevant person” means—
(a) in the case of converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DD, the person from whom the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph were seized, and
(b) in the case of converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DE, any person affected by the crypto wallet freezing order mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph.
(5) A person within sub-paragraph (6) may, subject to sub-paragraph (7) and after notifying the magistrates’ court or sheriff under whose order converted cryptoassets are being detained, release the whole or any part of the converted cryptoassets if satisfied that the detention is no longer justified.
(6) The following persons are within this sub-paragraph—
(a) in relation to England and Wales or Northern Ireland, an authorised officer;
(b) in relation to Scotland, a procurator fiscal.
(7) Converted cryptoassets are not to be released under this paragraph (and so are to continue to be detained)—
(a) if an application for their forfeiture under paragraph 10Z7DG is made, until any proceedings in pursuance of the application (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded;
(b) if (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the converted cryptoassets are connected, until the proceedings are concluded.
Forfeiture
10Z7DG (1) This paragraph applies while any converted cryptoassets are detained under paragraph 10Z7DD or 10Z7DE.
(2) An application for the forfeiture of some or all of the converted cryptoassets may be made—
(a) to a magistrates’ court by, the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or an authorised officer;
(b) to the sheriff, by the Scottish Ministers.
(3) The court or sheriff may order the forfeiture of some or all of the converted cryptoassets if satisfied that the converted cryptoassets to be forfeited—
(a) are within subsection (1)(a) or (b) of section 1, or
(b) are property earmarked as terrorist property.
(4) But in the case of property which belongs to joint tenants, one of whom is an excepted joint owner, the order may not apply to so much of it as the court thinks is attributable to the excepted joint owner’s share.
(5) Where an application for forfeiture is made under this paragraph, the converted cryptoassets are to continue to be detained under paragraph 10Z7DD or 10Z7DE (and may not be released under any power conferred by this Part) until any proceedings in pursuance of the application (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded.
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph—
(a) an excepted joint owner is a joint tenant who obtained the property in circumstances in which it would not (as against them) be earmarked, and
(b) references to the excepted joint owner’s share of property are to so much of the property as would have been theirs if the joint tenancy had been severed.
Forfeiture: appeals
10Z7DH (1) Any party to proceedings for an order for the forfeiture of converted cryptoassets under paragraph 10Z7DG who is aggrieved by an order under that paragraph or by the decision of the court not to make such an order may appeal—
(a) from an order or decision of a magistrates’ court in England and Wales, to the Crown Court;
(b) from an order or decision of the sheriff, to the Sheriff Appeal Court;
(c) from an order or decision of a magistrates’ court in Northern Ireland, to a county court.
(2) An appeal under sub-paragraph (1) must be made before the end of the period of 30 days starting with the day on which the court makes the order or decision.
(3) The court hearing the appeal may make any order it thinks appropriate.
(4) If the court upholds an appeal against an order forfeiting the converted cryptoassets, it may, subject to sub-paragraph (5), order the release of some or all of the converted cryptoassets.
(5) If (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the converted cryptoassets are connected, the converted cryptoassets are not to be released under this paragraph (and so are to continue to be detained) until the proceedings are concluded.
Extended time for appealing in certain cases where deproscription order made
10Z7DI (1) This paragraph applies where—
(a) a successful application for an order under paragraph 10Z7DG relies (wholly or partly) on the fact that an organisation is proscribed,
(b) an application under section 4 of the Terrorism Act 2000 for a deproscription order in respect of the organisation is refused by the Secretary of State,
(c) the converted cryptoassets forfeited by the order under paragraph 10Z7DG were converted from cryptoassets which were seized under this Schedule on or after the date of the refusal of that application,
(d) an appeal against that refusal is allowed under section 5 of the Terrorism Act 2000,
(e) a deproscription order is made accordingly, and
(f) if the order is made in reliance on section 123(5) of the Terrorism Act 2000, a resolution is passed by each House of Parliament under section 123(5)(b) of that Act.
(2) Where this paragraph applies, an appeal under paragraph 10Z7DH against the making of an order under paragraph 10Z7DG may be brought at any time before the end of the period of 30 days beginning with the date on which the deproscription order comes into force.
(3) In this paragraph a “deproscription order” means an order under section 3(3)(b) or (8) of the Terrorism Act 2000.
Application of forfeited converted cryptoassets
10Z7DJ (1) Converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DD and forfeited under paragraph 10Z7DG, and any accrued interest on them, must be applied as follows—
(a) first, they must be applied in making any payment of reasonable expenses incurred by an authorised officer in connection with the safe storage of the cryptoassets mentioned in paragraph 10Z7DD(1) during the period the cryptoassets were detained under Part 4BA;
(b) second, they must be applied in making any payment of reasonable expenses incurred by an authorised officer in connection with the conversion of those cryptoassets under paragraph 10Z7DA(6);
(c) third, they must be applied in making any payment of reasonable expenses incurred by an authorised officer in connection with the detention of the converted cryptoassets under this Part;
(d) fourth, they must be paid—
(i) if forfeited by a magistrates’ court in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, into the Consolidated Fund, and
(ii) if forfeited by the sheriff, into the Scottish Consolidated Fund.
(2) Converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DE and forfeited under paragraph 10Z7DG, and any accrued interest on them, must be applied as follows—
(a) first, they must be applied in making any payment of reasonable expenses incurred by an authorised officer in connection with the detention of the converted cryptoassets under this Part;
(b) second, they must be paid—
(i) if forfeited by a magistrates’ court in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, into the Consolidated Fund, and
(ii) if forfeited by the sheriff, into the Scottish Consolidated Fund.
(3) But converted cryptoassets are not to be applied or paid under sub-paragraph (1) or (2)—
(a) before the end of the period within which an appeal under paragraph 10Z7DH may be made, or
(b) if a person appeals under that paragraph, before the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of.
Victims etc
10Z7DK (1) This paragraph applies where converted cryptoassets are detained under this Part.
(2) Where this paragraph applies, a person (“P”) who claims that the relevant cryptoassets belonged to P immediately before—
(a) the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or
(b) the crypto wallet freezing order was made in relation to the crypto wallet in which the relevant cryptoassets were held,
may apply to the relevant court for some or all of the converted cryptoassets to be released to P.
(3) The application may be made in the course of proceedings under paragraph 10Z7DD, 10Z7DE or 10Z7DG or at any other time.
(4) The relevant court may, subject to sub-paragraph (9), order the converted cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant if it appears to the relevant court that the condition in sub-paragraph (5) is met.
(5) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that—
(a) the applicant was deprived of the relevant cryptoassets, or of property which they represent, by criminal conduct,
(b) the relevant cryptoassets the applicant was deprived of were not, immediately before the applicant was deprived of them, property obtained by or in return for criminal conduct and nor did they then represent such property, and
(c) the relevant cryptoassets belonged to the applicant immediately before—
(i) the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or
(ii) the crypto wallet freezing order was made in relation to the crypto wallet in which the relevant cryptoassets were held.
(6) If sub-paragraph (7) applies, the relevant court may, subject to sub-paragraph (9), order the converted cryptoassets to which the application relates to be released to the applicant or to the person from whom the relevant cryptoassets were seized.
(7) This sub-paragraph applies where—
(a) the applicant is not the person from whom the relevant cryptoassets were seized,
(b) it appears to the relevant court that the relevant cryptoassets belonged to the applicant immediately before—
(i) the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or
(ii) the crypto wallet freezing order was made in relation to the crypto wallet in which the relevant cryptoassets were held,
(c) the relevant court is satisfied that the release condition is met in relation to the converted cryptoassets, and
(d) no objection to the making of an order under sub-paragraph (6) has been made by the person from whom the relevant cryptoassets were seized.
(8) The release condition is met—
(a) if the conditions in this Part for the detention of the converted cryptoassets are no longer met, or
(b) in relation to converted cryptoassets which are subject to an application for forfeiture under paragraph 10Z7DG, if the court or sheriff decides not to make an order under that paragraph in relation to the converted cryptoassets.
(9) If (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the converted cryptoassets are connected, the converted cryptoassets are not to be released under this paragraph (and so are to continue to be detained) until the proceedings are concluded.
(10) Where sub-paragraph (2)(b) applies, references in this paragraph to a person from whom relevant cryptoassets were seized include a reference to a person by or for whom the crypto wallet mentioned in that provision was administered immediately before the crypto wallet freezing order was made in relation to the crypto wallet.
(11) In this paragraph “the relevant cryptoassets” means—
(a) in relation to converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DD, some or all of the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph, and
(b) in relation to converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DE, some or all of the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph.
Compensation
10Z7DL (1) This paragraph applies if no order is made under paragraph 10Z7DG in respect of converted cryptoassets detained under this Part.
(2) Where this paragraph applies, the following may make an application to the relevant court for compensation—
(a) a person to whom the relevant cryptoassets belonged immediately before they were seized;
(b) a person from whom the relevant cryptoassets were seized;
(c) a person by or for whom the crypto wallet mentioned in paragraph 10Z7DE(1) was administered immediately before the crypto wallet freezing order was made in relation to the crypto wallet.
(3) If the relevant court is satisfied that—
(a) the applicant has suffered loss as a result of—
(i) the conversion of the relevant cryptoassets into money, or
(ii) the detention of the converted cryptoassets, and
(b) the circumstances are exceptional,
the relevant court may order compensation to be paid to the applicant.
(4) The amount of compensation to be paid is the amount the relevant court thinks reasonable, having regard to the loss suffered and any other relevant circumstances.
(5) If the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or the relevant crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by an officer of Revenue and Customs, the compensation is to be paid by the Commissioners for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
(6) If the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or the relevant crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by a constable, the compensation is to be paid as follows—
(a) in the case of a constable of a police force in England and Wales, it is to be paid out of the police fund from which the expenses of the police force are met;
(b) in the case of a constable of the Police Service of Scotland, it is to be paid by the Scottish Police Authority;
(c) in the case of a police officer within the meaning of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000, it is to be paid out of money provided by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
(7) If the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or the relevant crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by a counter-terrorism financial investigator, the compensation is to be paid as follows—
(a) in the case of a counter-terrorism financial investigator who was—
(i) a member of the civilian staff of a police force (including the metropolitan police force), within the meaning of Part 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, or
(ii) a member of staff of the City of London police force,
it is to be paid out of the police fund from which the expenses of the police force are met;
(b) in the case of a counter-terrorism financial investigator who was a member of staff of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, it is to be paid out of money provided by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
(8) If the relevant cryptoassets were seized, or the relevant crypto wallet freezing order was applied for, by an immigration officer, the compensation is to be paid by the Secretary of State.
(9) This paragraph does not apply if the relevant court makes an order under paragraph 10Z7DK.
(10) In this paragraph—
“the relevant cryptoassets” means—
(a) in relation to converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DD, the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph;
(b) in relation to converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DE, the cryptoassets mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph;
“the relevant crypto wallet freezing order”, in relation to converted cryptoassets detained under paragraph 10Z7DE, means the crypto wallet freezing order mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph.”
3 In Part 1, in paragraph 1(1) (terrorist cash), for “and 4B” substitute “to 4BD”.
4 In Part 4B (forfeiture of terrorist money held in bank and building society accounts), after paragraph 10Z6 insert—
“Victims etc
10Z6A (1) A person who claims that money in respect of which an account freezing order has been made belongs to them may apply to the relevant court for the money to be released.
(2) The application may be made in the course of proceedings under paragraph 10S or 10Z2 or at any other time.
(3) The court may, subject to sub-paragraph (7), order the money to which the application relates to be released to the applicant if it appears to the court that—
(a) the applicant was deprived of the money to which the application relates, or of property which it represents, by criminal conduct,
(b) the money the applicant was deprived of was not, immediately before the applicant was deprived of it, property obtained by or in return for criminal conduct and nor did it then represent such property, and
(c) the money belongs to the applicant.
(4) If sub-paragraph (5) applies, the court may, subject to sub-paragraph (7), order the money to which the application relates to be released to the applicant.
(5) This sub-paragraph applies where—
(a) the applicant is not the person from whom the money to which the application relates was seized,
(b) it appears to the court that the money belongs to the applicant,
(c) the court is satisfied that the release condition is met in relation to the money, and
(d) no objection to the making of an order under sub-paragraph (4) has been made by the person from whom the money was seized.
(6) The release condition is met—
(a) in relation to money held in a frozen account, if the conditions for making an order under paragraph 10S in relation to the money are no longer met, or
(b) in relation to money held in a frozen account which is subject to an application for forfeiture under paragraph 10Z2, if the court or sheriff decides not to make an order under that paragraph in relation to the money.
(7) Money is not to be released under this paragraph—
(a) if an account forfeiture notice under paragraph 10W is given in respect of the money, until any proceedings in pursuance of the notice (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded;
(b) if an application for its forfeiture under paragraph 10Z2, is made, until any proceedings in pursuance of the application (including any proceedings on appeal) are concluded;
(c) if (in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) proceedings are started against any person for an offence with which the cash is connected, until the proceedings are concluded.
(8) In relation to money held in an account that is subject to an account freezing order, references in this paragraph to a person from whom money was seized include a reference to a person by or for whom the account was operated immediately before the account freezing order was made.”
5 In Part 6, in paragraph 19(1), at the appropriate places insert—
““cryptoasset” has the meaning given by paragraph 10Z7A(1);”;
““crypto wallet” has the meaning given by paragraph 10Z7A(1);”;
““justice of the peace”, in relation to Northern Ireland, means lay magistrate;”;
““terrorist cryptoasset” has the meaning given by paragraph 10Z7A(1);”.
Part 2
Amendments to the Terrorism Act 2000
6 The Terrorism Act 2000 is amended as follows.
7 In Schedule 6 (financial information)—
(a) in paragraph 6(1) (meaning of financial institution)—
(i) omit the “and” after paragraph (ha), and
(ii) after paragraph (i) insert—
(b) after sub-paragraph (1AA) insert—
“(1AB) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(j), “cryptoasset exchange provider” means a firm or sole practitioner who by way of business provides one or more of the following services, including where the firm or sole practitioner does so as creator or issuer of any of the cryptoassets involved—
(a) exchanging or arranging or making arrangements with a view to the exchange of, cryptoassets for money or money for cryptoassets,
(b) exchanging, or arranging or making arrangements with a view to the exchange of, one cryptoasset for another, or
(c) operating a machine which utilises automated processes to exchange cryptoassets for money or money for cryptoassets.
(1AC) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(k), “custodian wallet provider” means a firm or sole practitioner who by way of business provides services to safeguard, or to safeguard and administer—
(a) cryptoassets on behalf of its customers, or
(b) private cryptographic keys on behalf of its customers in order to hold, store and transfer cryptoassets.
(1AD) For the purposes of sub-paragraphs (1AB) and (1AC), “cryptoasset” means a cryptographically secured digital representation of value or contractual rights that uses a form of distributed ledger technology and can be transferred, stored or traded electronically.
(1AE) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1AB)—
(a) “cryptoasset” includes a right to, or interest in, the cryptoasset;
(b) “money” means—
(i) money in sterling,
(ii) money in any other currency, or
(iii) money in any other medium of exchange,
but does not include a cryptoasset.
(1AF) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend the definitions in sub-paragraphs (1AB) to (1AE).”
8 In section 123 (orders and regulations), after subsection (6ZE) insert—
“(6ZF) Regulations under paragraph 6(1AF) of Schedule 6 may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”’—(Tom Tugendhat.)
Part 1 of this Schedule amends the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 to make provision for a civil recovery regime in relation to terrorist cryptoassets. Part 2 of this Schedule amends the Terrorism Act 2000 to make provision about financial institutions and cryptoassets.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill (Eighth sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2022
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 View all Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2022 - (29 Nov 2022)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 2 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 2 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that with this we are considering new clause 2—Disapplication of the UK Internal Market Act 2020—
“Where Scottish Ministers have used any power granted to them under this Act—
(a) to provide that any EU-derived subordinate legislation or retained direct EU legislation is not subject to revocation at the end of 2023, or
(b) to restate any provision of retained EU law (or, as the case may be, assimilated law),
that legislation or provision shall apply notwithstanding any provision of the UK Internal Market Act 2020.”
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
I beg to move amendment 62, in clause 22, page 22, line 5, at end insert—
“(3A) But no provision of this Act, other than this section, may come into force in relation to Scotland unless the Scottish Parliament has passed a motion consenting to the Act.”
This is the last of the amendments in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes, but it is arguably the most telling, because it gets to the nub of everything that we have said about the Bill, while putting the Government on the spot about their commitment to the devolution settlement. The amendment says that none of the Bill’s provisions can take effect on areas of devolved competence unless and until the Scottish Parliament has consented to the Bill through the granting of a legislative consent motion.
I have mentioned on numerous occasions in Committee the seemingly endless stream of warm words on how valued, respected, appreciated and indeed cherished Scotland is by this place, and on how absolutely catastrophic it would be if we decided to leave this not-so-voluntary and not particularly precious Union. The amendment is a litmus test of that commitment to devolution. It would allow the Scottish Parliament to operate as it has done, and as it has always intended to, by giving it the power to decide on matters in a whole raft of policy areas—indeed, on everything that is not specifically reserved to this place. In that spirit, and mindful of everything said by the Prime Minister and others in the past week, I ask: is it too much to ask the Government turn that stream of warm words into action, to accept this amendment, and to prove to the growing band of doubters north of the border that the Government respect Scottish democracy after all? This is, in many ways, the last chance for the Government to secure their support and turn the tide. I wonder whether they will take it.
The Minister for Climate (Graham Stuart)
It is only right that all four nations of this United Kingdom should benefit from the ability to reform and amend retained EU law, so I reject the amendment. The Bill’s territorial scope is the whole UK. As such, all its key measures, including the sunset, will apply to the devolved Governments. That will ensure that we can amend or remove outdated EU-derived law that is no longer right for any part of the UK. The Bill is an essential piece of legislation that will enable the four nations of the UK to capitalise on the regulatory autonomy offered by our departure from the EU, and to fully realise the opportunities of Brexit.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
Who is best placed to decide whether any of this retained EU law is in Scotland’s best interests? Is it the 5.5 million people who live in Scotland or the Minister?
Graham Stuart
I would have thought the hon. Gentleman would still be smarting from finding out—from the Supreme Court, no less—that all the exaggerated, hyperbolic claims made by the Scottish National party had no grounding whatever. If he was a true democrat, he would respect that once-in-a-generation opportunity taken by the Scottish people, in which they were asked if they wished to stay part of this Parliament and this United Kingdom; and they decided that, yes, they would. It is on that basis that I reject the amendment. I am pleased that the Supreme Court agreed with any other well-informed commentator—other than those specially selected by the Scottish nationalist party—that we are behaving in an appropriate way that fully supports and respects Scottish democracy, and will continue to do so.
Peter Grant
I genuinely and sincerely thank the Minister for the contemptuous way in which he has dismissed the demands of the people of Scotland, because he has added another couple of percentage points to their support for independence. Perhaps—appropriately, when we are discussing a Bill that is full of opportunities for the Government to change the law by mistake—he is single-handedly bringing independence day that wee bit nearer.
There is an important point here. The Minister claimed that in 2014 the people of Scotland were given the chance to decide our future. The chance to decide our future is not something we are given by some colonial overlord. The chance to decide our future is recognised in this place as a fundamental right, as, indeed, is the chance to decide whether the interests of Scotland are best served by a chaotic Brexit, as illustrated in this Bill, or by remaining in the European Union. I accept the Minister wants this country out of the European Union. It is time he respected that I want my country back in. If he wants to talk about the decision that was made in 2014—
The Chair
Order. I blame the Minister for taking us down a particular path, but I encourage the hon. Gentleman to stick to amendment 62.
Peter Grant
I will stick to amendment 62, Sir Gary. The amendment is the last chance in the Bill to respect the decision of the people of Scotland in 2014. Among other things, they voted the way they did because they wanted to remain in the European Union, and they confirmed that with a 24% margin of victory in the 2016 referendum. If the Minister wants to respect the will of the people of Scotland in respect to our relationship with Europe, he will support the amendment, and his Whip, the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, will hold up a board telling Government Back Benchers to support it too.
Brendan O’Hara
Again, I am not remotely surprised that the Government have rejected the amendment; they have rejected every single amendment we have tabled in the past six sittings, over three days. We have given the Government ample opportunity to respect the devolution settlement and for them to say to the Scottish people, “Yes, we respect your Parliament. We respect your democracy. We respect that you have the right to do things differently, as enshrined in the devolution settlement,” but they have rejected every single opportunity they have been offered.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes is absolutely right to say that Scotland is being denied democracy. This Bill, coupled with the UK Internal Market Act 2020, is a full-on assault on Scottish democracy. I will not push the amendment to a vote, but I will return to this issue on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Graham Stuart
I beg to move amendment 7, in clause 22, page 22, line 9, at end insert—
“(b) the revocation of anything by section 1, or
(c) anything ceasing to be recognised or available in domestic law (and, accordingly, ceasing to be enforced, allowed or followed) as a result of section 3.”
This amendment provides that transitional, transitory or saving provision may be made in connection with anything sunsetted under Clause 1 or 3.
Graham Stuart
The amendment clarifies the power to make transitional provisions for the sunset. Transitional provisions regulate transition from the current law to the law as it will be when amended by the Bill. For instance, transitional provisions could be made to ensure that laws that will fall away after the sunset continue to apply to certain types of ongoing contracts after the sunset date, if the contracts were entered into on the basis of those rules applying. Consequently, the amendment ensures consistency for businesses and citizens following the sunset’s effects. That is highly important, given the roles the Bill will play as a key driver for growth. I trust the Committee will support consistency and growth for British business and citizens, and thus will join me in voting for the amendment.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
As the Minister just said, Labour will support growth for British business, and we look forward to seeing some in the next 18 months, or maybe before. However, I have a couple of questions about the commencement dates.
Subsection (2) states:
“Section 18 comes into force…two months”
after Royal Assent, whereas subsection (3) contains a much broader provision for Ministers of the Crown to implement different parts of the Act on different dates. As the Committee will have gathered from my comments this morning, I think that that will be sooner rather than later for much of this Bill, but will the Minister explain the difference? Why is there a specific date for section 18, but a much broader power for the remaining provisions?
Subsection (5) refers to various pieces of legislation, including the Financial Services and Markets Act 2022, Financial Conduct Authority and Prudential Regulation Authority rules, and the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013, as not being applicable to this Act. We have tried to exclude and carve out various pieces of legislation from this Bill, because we believe that some provisions are important for our constituents. I wonder what the rationale is for deciding that those particular provisions are so special that they deserve that treatment.
Graham Stuart
In short, it is because clause 18 covers the business impact target, which is an internal Government process, so I hope that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.
Amendment 7 agreed to.
Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
We come to new clause 1, which has already been debated. I call Brendan O’Hara to move new clause 1 formally.
Peter Grant
On a point of order, Sir Gary. I am looking for some clarification. The earlier amendments that would have introduced these new clauses were voted down, so we were unsure whether the new clauses themselves could still be voted on, or whether they had automatically been deemed to have fallen.
The Chair
I think I have made a slight error, so we will move on. The new clauses have fallen—my apologies.
New Clause 8
Conditions for bringing sections 3, 4 and 5 into force
“(1) None of sections 3, 4 or 5 may be brought into force unless all the following conditions have been satisfied.
(2) The first condition is that a Minister of the Crown has, after consulting organisations and persons representative of interests substantially affected by, or with expertise in the likely legal effect of, that section on a draft of that report, laid a report before each House of Parliament setting out, with reasons, the Minister’s view as to the likely advantages and disadvantages of bringing that section into force, setting out in particular the effect of that section on—
(a) the rights of and protections for consumers, workers, and businesses, and protections of the environment and animal welfare;
(b) legal certainty, and the clarity and predictability of the law;
(c) the operation of the Trade and Cooperation agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU, and UK exports of goods and services to the European Economic Area; and
(d) the operation of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland in the EU withdrawal agreement.
(3) In relation to section 4, that report must take into account any regulation made or likely to be made by a relevant national authority under section 8(1).
(4) The second condition is that a period of sixty days has passed since that report was laid before Parliament, with no account to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which either House is adjourned for more than four days.
(5) The third condition is that, after the end of that period, both Houses of Parliament have approved a resolution that that section come into force.
(6) If both Houses of Parliament have approved a resolution that that section should not come into force unless it is amended in a way set out in that resolution, then the Minister may by regulation amend that section accordingly, and that section may not be brought into force until that amendment has been made.”—(Justin Madders.)
This new clause requires Ministers to analyse, and to explain their analysis of, the effect of the removal of retained EU law rights, the principle of supremacy of EU law, and of the general principles. It also includes opportunity for Parliamentary approval and timeframes for laying reports before both Houses.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 11—Impact assessments—
“(1) This section applies when—
(a) a relevant national authority is making regulations under section 12, 13, 15 or 16, or
(b) EU-derived subordinate legislation or retained direct EU legislation is to be revoked under section 1(1) of this Act and regulations made under section 2 do not apply to that legislation.
(2) Six weeks prior to the coming into force of the regulations or (as the case may be) three months before the revocation of the legislation, a relevant national authority must lay before Parliament the report required by subsection (3).
(3) The report required by this subsection must outline the impact the authority expects the regulations or (as the case may be) revocation to have on—
(a) the UK’s obligations under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement,
(b) divergence in standards, rights, protections and regulatory burden between component parts of the UK,
(c) the regulatory burden for businesses seeking to import or export goods or services, and
(d) level playing field provisions contained within bilateral trade agreements between the UK and countries outside the EU.
(4) If the report required by subsection (3) is not laid before Parliament by the date required by subsection (2), the regulations may not be made or (as the case may be) the legislation is, notwithstanding section 1(1), not revoked.”
This new clause will insert the requirement for taking out a comprehensive impact assessment when using the powers afforded by sections 12, 13, 15, and 16, and before the application of section 1(1) (sunset of retained EU law).
Justin Madders
The Government have a track record of inadequate impact assessments going back a few years, and they are not showing much sign of improvement with this Bill. Labour sees it as our duty to push for new clauses that would force the Government to wake up and properly assess the impact of this Bill and policies that will flow from it. As we are approaching the end of proceedings, I will try to keep this brief.
Subsections (1) and (2) of both new clauses should be somewhat familiar to those who have been following our new clauses closely. In both new clauses, subsection (1) simply states that the new clauses would apply to national authorities making regulations under clauses 12, 13, 15 and 16, or section section 1(1), and subsection (2) mimics the timeframe stipulations in our other new clauses; it requires that at least six weeks before the legislation comes into force, or at least three months before it is revoked, a report should be laid before the House that sets out the issues outlined in the new clauses.
The two new clauses differ in the issues that the impact assessments are designed to tackle. New clause 10 focuses on the impact that modifications will have on each authority’s obligations under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. If Members are unaware of what that includes, it is a duty to consider the need to
“eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by or under this Act…advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it”
and
“foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it.”
Those are principles that I hope all members of the Committee can sign up to, so it should not be seen as an unreasonable requirement on the Government to prepare such an assessment. In fact, I would be deeply concerned if they were not planning to do that as a matter of course.
The Minister told us last week that the Government were committed to retaining all necessary equality legislation. Leaving aside the question of who decides whether legislation is necessary, if the Government were committed to maintaining equality, they would surely as a matter of course want to know the impact on equalities of all the changes that Ministers are giving themselves the power to make under the Bill. All the new clause does is require the Government to lay a report on these issues before Parliament in good time. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government intend to undertake equality impact assessments of each legislative change in the Bill? He mentioned this morning that there was a commitment to undertaking assessments, but I do not think that we specifically heard that there would be equality impact assessments.
I remain sceptical that we will get the full and proper assessments that we need, because there has been little time and space for proper scrutiny and assessment of the consequences of the powers that Ministers are giving themselves in the Bill. That is, of course, not an accident. As I argued last week, it is by design, so that as little attention as possible is drawn to the impact of any changes that the Bill may deliver.
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that equality impact assessments under the 2010 Act are not a legal requirement anymore. If I am right on that—I may not be—are the Opposition requiring an equality impact assessment for this Bill alone, or is this part of a broader change in their approach?
Justin Madders
Of course, we can talk only about the effects of the Bill, so the proposal is limited to the Bill at this stage. If the hon. Member has been listening throughout the last three days, he will know that Ministers’ powers to revoke and amend EU legislation have a range of potential implications on equalities. That is why an assessment is particularly important in this instance. Our concern is that the Government do not want it in the public domain that changes under the legislation will lead to Equality Act obligations being failed or less stringent. They seem to be trying to ensure, either by accident or design, that the legislation passes without the microscope of scrutiny and assessment that we think is necessary when talking about basic protections and equality laws.
We parliamentarians should be concerned about the consequences of any legislation that we pass. Our new clauses address that. They do not just set out a requirement to report on obligations under the Equality Act. In new clause 11 we ask for a more general impact assessment, including of the effect on our obligations under the trade and co-operation agreement, which we discussed briefly, and on divergences in rights, standards protections and regulatory burdens in the component parts of the UK. We discussed that, and why it is important, this morning.
We have already discussed the regulatory burdens incurred by businesses seeking to import and export goods and services, and the level playing field provisions in bilateral trade agreements between the UK and the EU, so I will not detain the Committee by setting out why those assessments are vital for the Bill. One would hope that those issues were being factored into any decisions made by Ministers under the powers in the Bill, but there are two key problems that would be made less likely as a result of the impact assessments under new clause 11. Proposed new subsection (3)(a) and (d) would ensure that the assessment highlighted the potential for changes to break international trade obligations. Proposed new subsection (3)(b) and (c) would require the assessment to ensure that the impact on our economy was minimal.
The Minister does not need me to tell him that if the Government decide that basic employment or environmental protections should no longer apply, they will potentially be in breach of the level playing field provisions in the TCA. That is probably the headline example of why we think that impact assessments are important. We certainly do not want to enter into a trade war. All we ask is that the Government make available to parliamentarians the details of what they have taken into consideration. Given how short a period the Government have in which to process every retained law, it is important that the assessment is available to parliamentarians. It will help us to identify any potential burdens on businesses and, significantly, whether there will be divergences across the country—an issue that we have already discussed. It is important that those issues are picked up at an early stage before regulations are passed.
We rely on the Government to undertake the necessary due diligence, but at the moment, we parliamentarians will not see the benefit of it. That is why I tabled the new clauses. We are trying not to place unreasonable restrictions on the Government, but we parliamentarians need the right information to scrutinise the changes. Unfortunately, assessments in recent times have been pretty flimsy. The Regulatory Policy Committee described the impact assessment for the Bill as “weak” or “very weak” in every respect. It said:
“As first submitted, the IA was not fit for purpose as it failed to consider adequately the full impacts of the Bill, in line with RPC primary legislation guidance. Specifically, the RPC highlighted, in its initial review, that the IA had not…provided a clear baseline position, with respect to the overall number of REUL”,
which of course is something that we are still waiting to get to the bottom of,
“that was in scope of the Bill and would, potentially, be retained, amended or sunset”.
We have discussed the question of what is in scope. The report also said that the impact assessment had not
“clarified whether other legislation that is in progress, will have impacts on some of the REUL contained in the overall figure of over 2,400 pieces of REUL”,
or 3,800, depending on which report we believe.
The Regulatory Policy Committee also said:
“The Department was not clear on how the different legislation would interact with the Bill”,
nor had it
“discussed, or set out, any examples of the REUL that is likely to be sunset, despite the Department having previously published extensive assessments of candidate REUL that could be changed or removed…The Department had not drawn upon any evidence or analysis, which was used to support those prior legislative changes, to provide an indication of the potential impacts associated with amending/replacing”
legislation, nor had it
“provided a more considered assessment of the full range of impacts of the Bill”,
so—
The Chair
We will continue with the excellent speech being made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston. If you feel that there are points that we may have forgotten, you may wish to repeat them.
Justin Madders
With that encouragement, I will start from the beginning. Hon. Members will be relieved to hear that I was actually reaching my peroration. The new clauses are designed to address our concerns about the amount of consideration that has been given to the Bill’s impact. We are continually told that this is a framework Bill. What confidence can we have that there will be sufficient assessment of the powers in the Bill? It is not outlandish or unreasonable to ask the Government to identify and critique the impact of the changes that they intend to make. Any prudent Government would seek to do that, given the nature of the Bill. For that reason, I hope that the Minister will finally agree, at the fag end of this Committee, to the new clause.
Graham Stuart
I ask the Committee to reject the new clause. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government take their responsibilities under the Equality Act 2010 very seriously. We would never intend to bring forward legislation that does not comply with that law. The Government will continue to provide equality impact assessments for regulations that engage a relevant public sector equality duty, as is good practice. We follow our responsibilities under the Equality Act, and will continue to do so when the Bill becomes law. With no further ado, I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider withdrawing the new clause.
Justin Madders
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 12
Assessment of impact on governance
“(1) Each relevant national authority must, within 28 days of the passage of this Act, lay before Parliament a report on—
(a) the projected cost incurred by each Government department or relevant national authority of complying with the requirements of sections 1 to 23 of this Act;
(b) the projected number of staff required by each Government department or relevant national authority to process all of the relevant retained EU law by the deadline in section 1(1);
(c) the amount of Parliamentary time expected to be needed to process the legislation relevant to each Government department or relevant national authority; and
a timeline outlining how each Government department or relevant national authority plans to meet the deadline in section 1(1).”—(Justin Madders.)
This new clause will establish the requirement for relevant departments to publish an assessment of the impact of processing through all the retained EU Law before the deadline set by Clause 1(1).
Brought up, and read the First time.
Justin Madders
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
We are almost back where we started, with questions about governance and capacity. Despite spending the best part of three days scrutinising the Bill, we are no closer to getting satisfactory answers. The new clause requires each national authority to produce a report for its Parliament within 28 days of the Bill becoming law, setting out the costs that each Department expects to incur in complying with the Bill’s requirements, the projected number of staff required to process all the retained EU law before the 2023 cliff edge, and the amount of parliamentary time that will be needed to deal with all the legislation. Most importantly, the new clause requires national authorities to produce a plan for how that deadline will be met.
I hope that Members see why there is a need for that report. We are concerned, if not alarmed, about the level of denial in Government about what they are letting themselves in for. There will be consequences, possibly negative ones, because of that lack of understanding of the task ahead. Any big project needs a critical analysis of timescales, resources and capacity.
Say the Government decided to build a giant gas pipeline all the way to Arctic, and someone said, “Let’s have it done by the end of next year.” People might reasonably ask whether one could build a pipeline of that length in just over a year. If all we parliamentarians got back was an assurance that each Department had teams looking at what was involved, we might question whether those plans were realistic. If we were lucky, that Arctic pipeline might reach the Shetland islands by the end of next year. The Bill is that pipeline. It is a hopelessly optimistic, totally unrealistic and frankly reckless attempt to achieve something on a timescale that is driven entirely by political rather than practical considerations. For the umpteenth time, completing this task by the end of next year is not going to stop Brexit, because we have already left the European Union.
Graham Stuart
You will be surprised to learn, Sir Gary, that I ask the Committee to reject the new clause. I apologise to Government Members for the Opposition’s mournful tone. They may not realise that, here we are, restoring our sovereignty in this Parliament—restoring our law, rather than being subject to that of a foreign sovereign.
Through the legislation that my colleagues and I are helping to proceed through this House, we are seeking to ensure that this law is fit for the needs of the UK, Department by Department. We are challenging Departments to look at retained EU law to ensure it is fit for purpose. I admit we are giving them a challenging deadline by which to do that, but I make no apology for doing that, and nor does any other Government Member. We are ambitious; we want to get on with growing the UK economy and ensure we do so in the right way. The new clause would place an unnecessary and laborious burden on the very officials who should be dedicating their time to delivering the retained EU law reform programme.
Paul Blomfield
I am impressed by the Minister’s ambition, although I am not sure that everybody shares his confidence. Will he share with the Committee how realistic it is that that ambition will be realised? He will know that the previous Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), was advised that, in his Department alone, it would take 400 civil servants to work on the 300 laws that need revision. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that will have on the Department’s other work? If that figure is wrong, what is the correct figure? I am sure that, behind all that rhetoric, an awful lot of detailed work has gone on to work out how this will be put into practice.
Graham Stuart
I recognise that the retained EU law reform programme is a significant piece of work. However, it is the quickest and most efficient way to deliver the Bill’s objective and end retained EU law as a legal category in its current form—something that everyone who accepts the result of the referendum—
Graham Stuart
The hon. Gentleman, who represents the SNP, does, of course, have a problem with accepting the results of referendums. He never likes the result they come to! Those who have accepted the result will recognise that this is the best way to incentivise genuine reform of retained EU law in ways that work for all four nations of the UK and are consistent with the devolution settlements.
Peter Grant
If the Minister checks his record, he will find that in three of the four referendums I have voted in in Scotland, Scotland voted in accordance with my wishes, and only one of those has been in any way respected by the present Government. The Minister gave a great oration about how important it is for him that the laws affecting his country are made by his country. Could he then explain why it is that when he wants the laws that affect his country to be made by a Government elected by his country, he is a patriot, but when I want the laws affecting my country to be made by the Government elected by the people of my country, I am a narrow-minded separatist? Why is that?
Graham Stuart
Of course, the hon. Gentleman is part of Parliament. That is why he is sitting in this United Kingdom Parliament—because, when his electors and electors across Scotland were asked, “Do you want to be in an independent Scotland?”, they said no. Despite that, this false narrative is pushed on a daily basis by the separatists opposite, who try to suggest that they are being held against their will. In fact, the only will they are being held against is the will of the Scottish people, who refuse to comply with the demands of the separatist SNP, which does not listen to the results of a referendum taking place in Scotland.
Getting back to the Bill, Departments will be expected to develop a delivery plan that outlines their intention for each piece of retained EU law. The Brexit Opportunities Unit will work with Departments to draw up those delivery plans and ensure the legislative process proceeds smoothly. The delivery plans will be subject to scrutiny via an internal Government process or ministerial stocktake process. More information on that will follow, including information on how to factor these processes into statutory instrument timetables.
Turning to the body of law we are talking about, we are currently engaging with the National Archives to uncover any additional information on retained EU law. However, it is worth nothing that many statutory instruments uncovered by the National Archives have been recognised either as orphaned statutory instruments or as no longer applicable to our current legal framework. We are exploring various ways—whether that is star chambers or using the dashboard—to identify what REUL is kept or sunsetted. Although individual Departments will take responsibility, we in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy will be helping to co-ordinate this across Government.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is helpful that the Minister has given us some insight into the work of the National Archives. When does he think those regulations—whether orphaned or not—will appear on the dashboard so that we can see them? They are currently opaque for the rest of us.
Graham Stuart
The National Archives has a statutory duty, as the King’s printer, to ensure the statute book is accurate, so asking it to look at REUL is in its existing remit, and—going back to the question from the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston—it does not cost additional money. It is actually a fundamental part of its work. It is working on that and, like him, I hope to see progress as quickly as possible.
The Government have proved during the Brexit transition and covid-19 that they can deliver extensive legislative programmes to tight deadlines. In so many ways—I should not stray from the subject, so I will not—we have learned from those programmes, and will work with Parliament to bring an even more successful REUL SI programme before the House. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston to consider withdrawing his new clause.
Justin Madders
We have had a slightly lively end to the proceedings. I want to pick up on some of the comments made by the Minister. He characterised our opposition to the Bill as not being ambitious—well, if we are in league with the Institute of Directors in saying that this Bill should be withdrawn, I cannot think of a more ambitious bunch of people. Its correct characterisation is that anyone who thinks the timescales in this Bill are realistic is deluded. There is a difference between reality and ambition, and at some point the Government will find the two colliding. I do not want be on the Government Benches when we have to deal with the fallout from that.
Justin Madders
We’ll see about that.
Whichever Benches I am on, I will always hold firm to the view that Parliament should be sovereign, and that Parliament should be the body that looks at laws and considers changes that affect our constituents. People voted in 2016 for Parliament to take back control, but the Bill does not do that; it gives control to Ministers. It wrenches control away from Parliament and the people we represent. At the core of this is a lack of transparency and a lack of confidence in the Government’s programme, because if they cannot tell us what they intend to do with the Bill and they do not want the light of scrutiny shone on their intentions, it suggests that they are not confident about what the public will say when those intentions become clear. A Government who are not confident in their own policies should not have the confidence of the public. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Justin Madders
On a spurious point of order, Sir Gary—no point of order is ever spurious in this place. I would like to thank you and Sir George for chairing the Committee, and the Clerks for their hard work in making sure that everything we have done has been in order—even this point of order. I also thank all Members for participating. We have had some robust and healthy debates, and I look forward to taking them forward in the main Chamber.
Brendan O’Hara
Further to that point of order, Sir Gary. I associate myself with the comments made by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, and thank the Clerks and the Government’s civil servants for the hard work that they have done. I realise that it has been a bit of mauling from this side of the House, but it was never, ever intended to be personal; it is purely political.
I thank you, Sir Gary, and Sir George, who guided us through the first two days of our proceedings. I am delighted to thank colleagues on both sides of the Chamber for the usually constructive, respectful and informed discussions that we have had over the past few days. I put on the record my sincere thanks, and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes, to Emilie-Louise Purdie, who did so much work behind the scenes so that my hon. Friend and I occasionally knew what we were talking about.
Graham Stuart
Further to that point of order, Sir Gary—spurious or otherwise. I thank the Committee for being so indulgent of me, as I have come in on this final day. It has been a robust but extremely good-humoured Committee, which has managed—under your excellent chairmanship, Sir Gary—to move with expedition through the Order Paper in front of us. I thank the Clerks for their support for all that we have done, and my civil servants in BEIS. If the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute had trouble with his colleague being brought up to speed, I can assure him that BEIS civil servants had an even harder task at bringing me up to speed. Members will be the judge of whether they managed that very well, but they put in a great deal of effort. Finally, I thank the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, and I congratulate him on his birthday last week and on the fact that he brought in his 50th birthday cake—it is just a shame I did not get a slice.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Social Housing and Regulation Bill [ LORDS ] (Second sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2022
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Social Housing (Regulation) Act 2023 View all Social Housing (Regulation) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2022 - (29 Nov 2022)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 6 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 4—Persons engaged in the management of social housing to have relevant professional qualifications—
“After section 217 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (accreditation) insert—
‘217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
(1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide that a person may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.
(2) Regulations specifying work for the purpose of subsection (1) may make provision by reference to—
(a) one or more specified activities, or
(b) the circumstances in which activities are carried out.
(3) Regulations made under this section may, in particular, require—
(a) the possession of a specified qualification or experience of a specified kind,
(b) participation in or completion of a specified programme or course of training, or
(c) compliance with a specified condition.
(4) Regulations may make provision for any of the following matters—
(a) the establishment and continuance of a regulatory body;
(b) the keeping of a register of qualified social housing practitioners;
(c) requirements relating to education and training before and after qualification;
(d) standards of conduct and performance;
(e) discipline and fitness to practise;
(f) removal or suspension from registration or the imposition of conditions on registration;
(g) investigation and enforcement by or on behalf of the regulatory body, and appeals against the decisions or actions of the regulatory body.”’
This new clause would require managers of social housing to have appropriate qualifications and expertise.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
As I said on Second Reading, the Government are fully committed to driving up housing management standards by improving the professional behaviours, skills and capabilities of all staff in the sector. The Grenfell tragedy and our subsequent social housing Green Paper consultation highlighted the fact that many staff did not listen to or treat residents with respect, provide a high-quality service or deal appropriately with complaints. The circumstances surrounding the death of Awaab Ishak have once again shown the tragic consequences that can occur when staff lack empathy and when tenants are not listened to. That is why clause 21 makes provision to enable the Secretary of State to direct the regulator of social housing to set standards for the competence and conduct of social housing staff. Registered providers will be required to comply with specified rules concerning the knowledge, skills and experience of social housing staff. They will also be required to comply with specified rules concerning the conduct expected of such individuals when dealing with tenants. Those factors are crucial in determining the quality of services provided to tenants.
Our approach offers a holistic solution to the issue of professionalisation. It champions the value of skills, knowledge and experience, and maintains landlords’ flexibility in choosing the most appropriate training programmes and qualifications to equip their workforces. The standards set under this clause will ensure that social housing staff develop the core skillsets and behaviours required to treat tenants with the empathy and respect that they deserve. They will also empower staff to take appropriate action to support tenants.
New clause 4, tabled by the shadow Minister, takes a different approach to achieving professionalisation. It gives the Secretary of State the power to stipulate, through regulations, that a person
“may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.”
As both myself and the Secretary of State set out on Second Reading, there is a real risk that mandating qualifications for all housing management staff would lead to the reclassification of housing associations to the public sector. The sector is close to the threshold for reclassification, and we saw that happen in 2015. Since then, a number of deregulatory measures have had to be taken before housing associations could be reclassified back to the private sector.
To make this point very clear, reclassification would bring around £90 billion of debt and all housing association annual spending on to the public ledger, and would likely reduce the ability of housing associations to improve the quality of their stock and build new homes. We have to be mindful of that risk and that outcome, which could be harmful to tenants.
However, we have listened carefully to the arguments made both in this House and the other place in support of mandatory qualifications. As I committed to do on Second Reading, I met with my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) to discuss this issue before the Bill reached Committee stage. We are continuing to look at whether there is any scope to include qualifications requirements in the competence and conduct standards without triggering reclassification. If we can identify a solution, then we will be able to bring that forward on Report.
We continue to believe that the existing provisions in the Bill, which will enable us to direct the regulator to set standards for the competence and conduct of all staff, will be an effective means of professionalising the sector. Our approach has been informed by the findings of our professionalisation review, which we will publish in full early next year. There is no doubt that housing management qualifications are an important aspect of professional development for some staff. Our review heard no clear evidence that such qualifications in and of themselves lead to better staff behaviours or improved tenant experiences. Qualifications such as those offered by the Chartered Institute of Housing will be an important part of how landlords ensure their staff have the skills, knowledge, experience and behaviours they need to deliver professional services, as required by the competence and conduct standards. Qualifications will sit alongside external and in-house training and more informal developmental tools such as staff supervision, mentoring and reflective practice.
Our review findings echoed what we heard after the Grenfell tragedy and more recently in relation to the death of Awaab Ishak—that what tenants most want and need is for all of the staff they deal with, whether housing managers, officers, or contact centre staff, to treat them with respect and empathy, to listen carefully and take appropriate and timely actions in response to their issues and concerns. We heard that these behaviours, and the interpersonal skills and attitudes that underlie them, are more likely to be achieved through a combination of organisational culture change led by senior executives and boards, adoption of codes of ethics and values, delivery of bespoke on-the-job training and effective supervision by experienced staff, than they are necessarily by formal qualifications.
The review also highlighted how important flexibility is in designing staff development programmes, given the sector’s diverse structures, operating models, role types, and breadth of service provision. Mandating qualifications for all housing management staff could hinder landlords in delivering the right mix of qualifications, training and development for their staff. Through the review we also heard that mandating qualifications for all staff would likely add to the recruitment and retention challenges faced by many landlords. Recruiting staff who have the right attitudes and aptitudes is more important to building a caring and empathetic workforce than employing people who possess formal qualifications. So we are concerned about the recruitment issues in that regard.
The standards that we are bringing forward will drive a holistic and organisation-wide approach to professional development, and deliver the empathetic, forward-looking and professional housing services the sector deserves, with staff who treat tenants with respect and act swiftly to remedy issues.
Dehenna Davison
Two to choose from—I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East.
Bob Blackman
The clause refers to the standards and competence that we expect to be achieved in this sector, and the amendment goes further and expands on them. However, it is silent on sanctions when they are not achieved. It is all very well having qualified people, but, if they do not perform properly, sanctions have to be available and directions by the Secretary of State should be possible. I wonder whether my hon. Friend will look at how we might strengthen the position when we get to Report stage.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I will respond to him and then perhaps I will have answered the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North wanted to ask. It is right that the regulator must have the right powers in place to deal with breaches of its standards. With regard to competence and conduct, the Bill enables the regulator to require providers to produce and implement a performance improvement plan to be approved by the regulator. If a provider fails to implement a plan, the regulator can issue an enforcement notice and levy an unlimited fine if that notice is not complied with. So the regulator will have teeth to ensure the kind of conduct that we expect. I hope that that answers the question from one hon. Friend.
Eddie Hughes
Anyone who has listened to the Grenfell Tower inquiry—especially the podcast, which provides a great summary of the challenges that were faced—will know that a number of tenants encountered members of staff who simply were not appropriately qualified to carry out their role. As a result, the tenants did not get the experience, support and help that they so rightly deserved. So, while I fully appreciate that it is appropriate to recruit for aptitude—this is a vocational area for many—it is incredibly appropriate to make sure that staff are trained for their role.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His expertise on this matter is welcome to all of us, and I thank him for all the work that he did as Minister on this really important body of work. He is right. That is why we have taken this away and are looking at what more we can do around professional qualifications, without that risk of reclassification. I hope that, following Committee stage, I will be able to report on what progress we have made before we reach Report stage.
It is important that we get this process right. We will continue the dialogue that we have already started with key stakeholders such as Grenfell United, Shelter and the CIH before we issue a statutory consultation on the direction itself. The regulator will then also consult on its draft standard before it comes into force. This Committee can be assured of our intent to take on board fully the views of both tenants and providers in developing the way forward. I have already spoken a little about compliance and sanctions if standards are not complied with, so I will leave that point there.
To summarise, the Government’s ambition is to build an empathetic, qualified and skilled social housing workforce. We want to bring about a wholesale organisational and cultural change, which we all recognise is desperately needed. We remain firm in our belief that our approach and the clause will deliver the professionalisation of the social housing sector, but we will of course continue to explore options for qualification requirements that would not trigger reclassification and would deliver the right outcomes for tenants. I commend the clause to the Committee and, on the basis of what I have outlined, I ask the shadow Minister not to move his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
We welcome the concession made by the Government in the other place on professional training and qualifications, and the resulting inclusion of the clause in the Bill. However, if we are to be certain that this legislation will expedite the professionalisation of the sector, we are absolutely convinced that the Government need to go still further.
As the Minister said, the clause amends section 194 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 by adding a proposed new section allowing the regulator to set regulatory standards on the competence and conduct of social housing managers, and making it clear that such standards may require providers to comply with specified rules relating to knowledge, skills and experience. However, the clause as drafted includes no requirement for those involved in the management of social housing to meet objective professional standards. We therefore agree with, among others, Grenfell United and Shelter, that it therefore risks introducing an insufficiently high bar for registered providers in respect of the professional training that they implement.
New clause 4 seeks to strengthen the Bill in relation to professionalisation by amending section 217 of the 2008 Act, concerning accreditation, to require managers of social housing to have appropriate objective qualifications and expertise.
Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
On professional qualifications, I completely understand that we need to have properly qualified people overseeing those in social housing and giving them support, but most professions—whether lawyers, accountants, firemen or police—have a professional body. What professional body does the hon. Gentleman propose should be behind social housing, because I do not think that there is one, is there?
Matthew Pennycook
I will touch on that. The Chartered Institute of Housing does a considerable amount of work in this area. For reasons I will come on to, however, the review that it is undertaking perhaps does not go as far as we need in the ways in which we think this legislation must be amended to drive professionalisation along the lines that many groups are calling for.
As I was saying, we think it is vital that those requirements should be put on the face of the Bill. As a result of the progressive residualisation of social housing over the past 40 years, it is now overwhelmingly let to those most in need. According to the latest English housing survey data, half of social renters are in the lowest income quintile, compared with 22% of private renters and 12% of owners; more than half of all households in such tenure have one or more members with a long-term illness or disability; and more than a quarter are 65 or over. We also know—this is certainly the case from my own post bag—that many social tenants find themselves facing intimidation by criminal gangs, domestic abuse and racial harassment, and that a minority are in desperate need of urgent moves to escape serious youth violence. We will return to that point when we debate new clause 1 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood.
As a result of frequently having little voice or power, and because there is a chronic shortage of social housing, tenants have few if any options to move if they receive an unprofessional service from their landlord. They face significant barriers when it comes to challenging poor conditions. We therefore must do more to ensure that those managing the homes of social tenants are properly qualified to do so and that they have undergone the necessary training, for example in anti-discriminatory and anti-oppressive practice, to ensure that they are treating tenants fairly and providing them with the necessary support. We rightly expect those working in other frontline services, such as education and social care, to have the professional qualifications and training necessary to carry out their work effectively, and to undergo continuous professional development. We should expect no less for those managing social homes.
Bob Blackman
The shadow Minister is applying quite a long list of prescriptions, and I think Members on both sides of the Committee would probably agree with much of what he is saying. One of the problems with putting such provisions into the Bill is that they are very difficult to amend at a future time. I accept that what he is proposing now is that regulations “may” be made; I wonder whether a better approach might be for a Government amendment to set out that regulations may be made. The prescription he has put in his new clause could then be made under regulation and, therefore, be easier to amend in the event that matters change. Otherwise, we would have to introduce primary legislation.
Matthew Pennycook
I do not want to engage the hon. Member in a prolonged discussion about “may” and “must”—we had enough of that with his private Member’s Bill. We are open to a discussion about how to proceed, but what we need at this stage is a commitment from the Minister that the Government are going to move on objective professional qualifications and training, rather than leaving the Bill as is. If that requires regulations to be moved in due course, we would be open to that, but let us see what the Government bring back on Report.
We will press our new clause to a vote at the appropriate moment to underscore how strongly we feel that this is one of the areas on which the Government must move by Report stage, to ensure that the legislation is as robust as it can possibly be.
Dehenna Davison
I will keep this brief. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for outlining his concerns, which were mentioned on Second Reading. The commitment I can give is that we are seriously looking at the issue and seeing how far we can go without that risk of reclassification. I appreciate his reasoning behind wanting to push the new clause to a vote; I hope in the meantime that he will be inclined to change his mind before we get to that point.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 21 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 22
Standards relating to information and transparency
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 9—Application of Freedom of Information Act 2000 to registered providers—
“(1) Within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, the Secretary of State must by order designate registered providers of social housing as public authorities for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.”
This new clause would bring registered providers of social housing within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Dehenna Davison
It is essential that social housing tenants should be able to access relevant information about their landlords and their homes. Greater transparency will empower tenants and drive providers to improve service delivery. Clause 22 extends the standard-setting powers of the Regulator of Social Housing to cover information and transparency. The clause will enable the regulator to deliver key social housing White Paper commitments, including setting standards relating to the new access to information scheme. We also expect information and transparency standards to include requirements for registered providers to share information on how landlords spend their income, executive pay and breaches of the standards.
When a provider is failing to meet these standards, the clause ensures that the regulator can take strong enforcement steps, including penalties, compensation and requiring changes in the management of the provider. Extending the regulator’s power to set regulatory standards to include standards on information and transparency will empower tenants to hold their landlord to account and strengthen overall consumer regulation.
New clause 9 seeks to require the Secretary of State to extend the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to registered providers of social housing, via statutory instrument, within six months of Royal Assent. I do not believe the amendment is necessary or advisable. The Government have worked closely with stakeholders to agree plans to deliver the access to information scheme for tenants of housing associations and other private registered providers, as promised in the social housing White Paper.
The new scheme will enable tenants of private registered providers and their representatives to request information from their landlords in a way similar to that available under the 2000 Act. It will also impose similar obligations on private registered providers. Tenants of private registered providers will be able to request information from their landlord on anything relating to the management of their homes. The new scheme will be integrated into the regulatory environment, tailored to the needs of tenants, and enforced as part of the regulator’s consumer standards.
If a tenant is unhappy with how a landlord has dealt with their request for information, they will be able to take their complaint to the housing ombudsman. The process will be the same as for other complaints, ensuring ease of use and accessibility for tenants. The ombudsman also has a strong understanding of the social tenant and landlord relationship, and an established relationship with the Regulator of Social Housing. Additionally, local authority providers, which would fall under the new clause, are already subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as public bodies.
Finally, extending freedom of information to registered providers would increase the level of Government control exercised over the sector. We are back to the potential argument around reclassification, which we are keen to avoid. The access to information scheme that we have laid out does not carry the same reclassification risk. On that basis, although I commend the excellent clause, I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to consider not pressing his new clause to a vote.
Matthew Pennycook
At the outset, I should thank the Greater Manchester Law Centre for its support in drafting the new clause, the purpose of which is to probe the Government’s rationale for not using the Bill to bring registered providers of social housing within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act—other than local authorities, which, as the Minister rightly said, are already subject to it—and to press the Government to reconsider.
As the Minister is no doubt aware, this matter has been a perennial cause of concern. In 2011, the coalition Government announced that they would consult housing associations on bringing them within the scope of the Act; however, no further action was taken—almost certainly as a result of housing associations objecting. The issue resurfaced in the wake of the Grenfell Tower fire as a result of the Information Commissioner’s Office reporting to Parliament that it had experienced difficulties in accessing information relating to social housing and to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation because the information was not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. The Information Commissioner at the time, Elizabeth Denham, made it clear that
“housing Associations are currently not subject to Freedom of Information Act because the Act does not designate them as public bodies. It is clear to me that this is a significant gap in the public’s right to know”.
We believe that she was right to highlight that gap, which remains to this day.
It is not simply that the public do not enjoy rights that they have never had; in the cases of housing associations that have had local authority stock transferred to their management, tenants and the public have lost freedom of information rights that they previously enjoyed when those homes were under local authority control. As I expected, the Minister has made the case that the issues are addressed by the provisions in clause 22 relating to information and transparency; however, those provisions are limited both in scope and specificity in terms of who may request the disclosure of information—it would appear that only tenants themselves have access to it, while journalists and others would not—and how the scheme will operate in practice.
Eddie Hughes
Perhaps the Minister can clarify this, but I understood that it was not just tenants, but people who were acting on their behalf. Can we confirm that? [Interruption.]
The Chair
Order. There is a Division in the House, so we will have to break for 15 minutes or so. We will resume as quickly as people can get back.
Matthew Pennycook
Before we suspended, the hon. Member for Walsall North pressed me on what he felt was an inaccuracy in my statement that journalists were not covered by the provisions. The Division has given me a chance to look at both the Bill and the explanatory notes. Unless he can find one, I see no mention of tenants or their representatives in the Bill. The provision in question, on page 18 of the Bill, merely states:
“the provision of information to their tenants of social housing”.
If it is the case that tenant representatives, including a broad definition of what that entails—including journalists—can access the information in question, that would be welcome.
However, not only is clause 22 limited to tenants themselves, but it provides no guarantees that an information and transparency scheme will be established. All it specifies is that the regulator “may set standards” for RPs in relation to those matters.
Although we can debate the efficacy of clause 22 in terms of whether the regulator’s ability to set standards relating to the provision of information and transparency will significantly increase RP accountability, it is clear that the clause does not provide for anything akin to that facilitated by the freedom of information regime. As the Information Commissioner’s Office put it, on welcoming the commitment to provide some information to tenants, the scope of the proposed access to information scheme
“appears narrower than FOI in a number of significant ways”.
The arguments against bringing housing associations within the Bill’s scope have been that it would inevitably result in reclassification by the Office for National Statistics and that RPs would be overwhelmed with FOI requests. However, the Scottish Government’s decision to extend coverage of Scotland’s freedom of information legislation to registered social landlords there, following a 2017 consultation—despite opposition from a majority of the housing associations affected—appears to undermine both those counter-arguments. A 2021 report by the Scottish Information Commissioner following the changes made there found that social landlords had responded well to being covered by the legislation, with a significant majority of organisations surveyed making it clear that they were responding effectively, were publishing more information as a result of FOI and were not overwhelmed with requests, with 57% reporting a small impact on staff workload. Importantly, despite being subject to the Freedom of Information Act, Scottish providers remain classified as private non-financial corporations by the ONS.
There are numerous examples from across the country of RPs either ignoring or refusing outright to respond to reasonable requests from tenants for information on a range of issues, including fire safety and health hazards, on the basis that they are not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I note what the Minister said about tenants’ ability to take such concerns to the housing ombudsman, but we have already discussed what a lengthy and time-consuming process that is. Given that local authority RPs are already covered by FOI, we cannot understand why non-local authority RPs are not brought within the scope of that Act. Given that one of the central aims of the White Paper and the Bill is to engender a culture of transparency and accountability among RPs and that clause 22 is far narrower in scope than FOI, we believe it would be beneficial to the public if housing associations that are not publicly owned are brought within the scope of the 2000 Act. The UK Information Commissioner’s Office agrees, stating as recently as January 2022:
“The ICO believes that housing associations that provide social housing should be covered by the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in the same way as housing provided by local authorities. We believe access to information laws should remain relevant and appropriate to how public services are delivered.”
I hope that the Minister has listened carefully to the arguments about the new clause, in particular the Scottish experience, and I look forward to her response. I will not press the new clause to a Division at this stage. Depending on her reply, we may return to it on Report.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for outlining his case so coherently. I go back to points that I made earlier. On the point about tenant representatives, it is certainly the intent that they will be able to make those requests on behalf of tenants. In some cases, that could include journalists—the hon. Member specifically commented on them. I hope that provides some assurance about intent. I am grateful to the hon. Member for not pressing the new clause to a Division for now.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 24
Standards relating to energy demand
The Chair
The Government indicated an intention to vote against the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill by tabling an amendment to leave out the clause.
Matthew Pennycook
The proposed tenant satisfaction measures scheme, as outlined in the social housing White Paper and underpinned by the provisions in the clause, has the potential to be an extremely useful tool for tenants, both in gaining a better understanding of their landlords’ performance and in providing feedback that can assist in driving up standards. We support it.
Given the diversity of providers across the social housing sector, however, a sufficient degree of standardisation of the collecting, processing and presenting of the information relating to the new tenant satisfaction measures is crucial. If steps are not taken to ensure a prescribed collection method for obtaining the information in question so that, when published, it allows for rigorous like-for-like comparison, the obvious risk is that the TSM scheme will struggle to facilitate an accurate and fair comparison of performance between RPs, and its use as a means of informing regulation will be compromised. The regulator itself has acknowledged the potential limitations of the scheme, owing to the variation in methods of data collection and sampling across different organisations.
The question, therefore, is what might be done to address those potential pitfalls to ensure that the TSM scheme works as effectively as it can. I will be grateful if the Minister could give us a sense of how the Government believe that a degree of standardisation might be imposed upon the TSM process to facilitate an accurate and fair comparison of performance between providers. Also, she might ask her officials to consider whether it would be appropriate for the Government to commit to asking the regulator to review the method of collecting, processing and presenting the information in question within a certain timeframe, following any directions issued under proposed new section 198C coming into effect.
Dehenna Davison
I will write to the shadow Minister following our sitting to give him further clarity about the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 28
Surveys
Dehenna Davison
I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 28, page 22, leave out lines 3 to 8 and insert—
“(8) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (7) may be left in a place on the premises until the survey has been carried out provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of carrying out the survey and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendments 5 to 11.
Clause stand part.
Dehenna Davison
The regulator has an existing power to arrange for a survey of a premises where it suspects that a landlord may be failing to maintain the premises in accordance with its standards. The clause takes steps to ensure that those important surveys can take place more promptly by reducing the notice period required from 28 days for landlords and seven days for tenants to 48 hours for both parties. These are minimum requirements, and in the majority of cases the regulator would seek to give more than the minimum notice period, but the changes ensure that the regulator can act quickly in the most serious cases.
The clause also includes a power for the regulator to seek a warrant for entry when necessary, meaning that surveys can take place when required to ensure that the regulator can identify problems and take appropriate action. In the most serious cases, following a survey the regulator will be able to arrange for emergency remedial action to take place, as set out under clause 31, to address an imminent risk to the health and safety of tenants if the provider fails to take action required by the regulator.
Committee members may be aware that we have stipulated in the Bill that equipment or materials can be left on the premises only if it is necessary for the survey or emergency remedial action to go ahead, or otherwise if that does not significantly impair an occupier when using the premises.
Government amendments 4 to 11 are common-sense amendments designed to ensure that regulatory activities do not unnecessarily obstruct or inconvenience residents of social housing. Our changes are slight and intend to strengthen the Bill’s provisions to the benefit of tenants. They require that even if it is necessary to leave equipment or materials on the premises for surveys or emergency remedial action, they must not be left in a way that causes significant inconvenience to occupiers if they can be left in another place where this inconvenience does not occur. This means that thought must be given to minimising the impact of a survey or works on occupiers, including the impact on a tenant’s use of the common parts.
Those small, technical changes are intended to ensure that a survey or emergency remedial action can be conducted, but in such a way that is mindful of the impact on tenants and courteous to them. I commend the amendments to the Committee.
Amendment 4 agreed to.
Amendments made: 5, in clause 28, page 22, line 8, at end insert—
“(9) Where the premises include common parts of a building, references in subsection (8) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.
(10) In this section, “common parts”, in relation to a building, includes the structure and exterior of that building and any common facilities provided (whether or not in the building) for persons who occupy the building.”
Where a survey is carried out on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the survey is carried out.
Amendment 6, in clause 28, page 22, leave out lines 31 to 36 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4) may be left in a place on the premises until the survey has been carried out provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of carrying out the survey and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 7, in clause 28, page 22, line 36, at end insert—
“(5A) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 199A), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”—(Dehenna Davison.)
Where a survey is carried out on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the survey is carried out.
Clause 28, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 29
Inspection plan
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 16, in clause 29, page 23, line 36, leave out lines 36 to 39 and insert—
“(a) the inspection of every registered provider within four years of the commencement of this Act,
(b) the inspection of every registered provider at intervals of no longer than four years thereafter, and”.
This amendment would ensure that the regulator is required to carry out regular inspections of every registered provider.
Matthew Pennycook
We strongly support the introduction of routine inspections of social landlords. We therefore welcome clause 29. I would like to take the opportunity once again to commend the efforts of Lord Best in the other place and the perseverance of Grenfell United, which ensured that the Bill was strengthened.
Routine inspections of social housing landlords must be central to the new consumer regulatory regime introduced by the Bill if tenants are to have confidence that landlords will be monitored appropriately and deterred from risking breaches that could undermine health and wellbeing. The welcome removal of the serious detriment test in its entirety through the provisions in clause 26 legally allows the regulator to adopt a proactive approach to monitoring and enforcing consumer standards.
In our view, such an approach should be premised on inspections that are at short notice, rigorous, thorough and that include direct engagement with tenants who can highlight issues of concern, thereby helping the regulator determine whether a given provider is meeting the enhanced consumer standards introduced by the Bill.
Clause 29 amends section 201 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, adding a new section 201A to require the regulator to make, and take appropriate steps to implement, a plan for carrying out inspections. The plan must be published, kept under review, and revised or replaced where appropriate. However, the nature of the plan and issues such as the types of RPs that should be subject to regular inspections, the frequency of those inspections, and the circumstances in which RPs should be subject to ad hoc inspections are not prescribed on the face of the Bill, instead being left to the regulator to determine in due course.
While we recognise the need for the regulator to have a significant degree of discretion when it comes to formulating the inspections plan, we believe that the Bill should be more prescriptive in two important respects. First, we believe it is essential that the Bill make clear that all RPs, large or small, will be subject to inspections by the regulator. Secondly, we believe it is essential that the Bill ensures that each RP will be subject to routine inspections.
Amendment 16 seeks to achieve both those objectives by specifying which landlords will be inspected and the maximum duration of time between each inspection they are subject to. It does so by replacing proposed new section 201A(1)(a) and (b) of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, as inserted by clause 29—for those following in the Bill, that is lines 36 to 39 on page 23—with a requirement that every RP must be inspected within four years of the commencement of the Act and then inspected at intervals of no longer than four years thereafter.
We believe it is entirely reasonable to detail in the Bill the minimum expectations for the regulator’s inspections plan. The policy paper published alongside the Bill in June made clear that it would enable Ofsted-style inspections of social housing providers by the regulator. The Education Act 2005 that introduced those inspections specified that every school in England would be subject to them and that they would be inspected on a routine basis at least once every three years. Amendment 16 takes that arrangement and applies it to RPs, subject to the enhanced consumer standards introduced by the Bill.
The amendment deliberately does not specify the precise frequency of inspections, merely requiring that they take place at least once every four years—the timeframe proposed by the Government in their 2020 White Paper in relation to the largest landlords. In doing so, the amendment would allow the regulator to determine the precise frequency and nature of individual inspections based on the size of the landlord and its risk profile as determined by means of desktop review.
We believe amendment 16 would preserve the regulator’s operational independence and flexibility when it comes to formulating and implementing the inspections plan now required by clause 29, while strengthening the clause to ensure that key minimum expectations are specified and that tenants can have real confidence in the new inspections regime as a result. I hope the Minister will consider accepting it.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 29 commits the regulator to the delivery of regular inspections by providing it with a duty to publish, and take reasonable steps to implement, a plan for regular inspections. The clause will reinforce the regulator’s commitment to deliver the policy objective set by the social housing White Paper, while ensuring the regulator has the freedom to design the inspections regime following engagement with the sector.
As members of the Committee know, a key part of our efforts to drive consumer standards is the introduction of routine inspections by the regulator for the largest landlords. Inspections will help the regulator to hold landlords to account and intervene where necessary, ultimately driving up the quality of homes and services provided to tenants. That measure is integral to the success of the proactive consumer regime facilitated by the Bill.
However, I cannot accept amendment 16, which seeks to introduce a specific duty for the regulator to conduct inspections of all RPs every four years. As I have said, clause 29 puts the Government and the regulator’s shared commitment to inspections into legislation, through requiring the regulator to publish and take reasonable steps to implement an inspections plan. The clause also ensures that the regulator maintains a level of operational flexibility to allow it to respond on a risk basis to significant developments in the sector.
The regulator is committed to developing a robust approach to inspections, and continues to develop the details of how it will manage consumer inspections via a process of targeted engagement with the sector and social housing tenants. I do not feel that we should bind the regulator’s hands by putting into legislation detailed requirements about inspections that would pre-empt the work it is currently undertaking.
The system of inspections will be based on a risk profile to ensure that those landlords at greatest risk of failing, or where failure might have the greatest impact on tenants, are subject to greater oversight. As part of that provision, the regulator will aim to inspect landlords with more than 1,000 homes every four years. We will, of course, hold the regulator to account to deliver and implement its inspections plan, and the regulator continues to be accountable to Parliament for the delivery of its statutory objectives.
Bob Blackman
Clearly, the providers with the most complaints against them to the regulator will be placed most at risk. In my view, some could be subject to an annual inspection, while providers that are doing a really good job and do not warrant an inspection could be left, although, clearly, if there were complaints, the inspection could be brought forward. Is that my hon. Friend’s understanding of how this will work? Obviously, the regulator will have limited resources to ensure that standards are improved.
Dehenna Davison
Absolutely—this is all about driving up standards. The plan is that the regulator will aim to inspect landlords with over 1,000 homes at least every four years, and those at highest risk could be subject to more frequent inspections. As I say, the regulator is doing detailed work to see how best to implement the measure, and it is important that we let it get on with that work before putting anything into the Bill. On that basis, I hope that the shadow Minister will withdraw the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
I rise to support amendment 16 on the basis of 17 years’ experience of Ofsted. We know that unless a school knows that Ofsted is coming, problems begin. A substantial proportion of outstanding schools that were not inspected for five years have recently been graded as needing improvement. Organisations need to know that somebody is coming, and coming in a reasonable time.
I simply do not understand why we would oppose registered providers being inspected once every four years, or why we would choose to inspect large housing associations but not smaller ones. Are housing associations with 1,000 tenants or fewer not just as susceptible to poor standards, and are those residents not entitled to live under the same inspection regime?
If regulation just requires looking at the paperwork, things can be made to look brilliant. Who here has not been told by their housing provider that it does not have a problem because 80% of tenants say that its repairs system is fantastic? When we dig into the detail, we appreciate how few people respond to customer service requests and just how hard some of our constituents find it to complain or get themselves heard. We need a clear and strong inspection regime.
Eddie Hughes
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. That is why we will do customer satisfaction surveys that have been agreed with the regulator. The format has been agreed. We will be able to compare housing associations and their relative performance in order to drill down and improve that performance. I understand her point, but the Government are making significant strides with the regulator to try to drive up customer and tenant engagement to ensure that we are genuinely getting the opinion of the majority, rather than a minority.
Siobhain McDonagh
That is not possible. We cannot construct a customer survey as emphatic or successful as that, because we have a broad span of residents and tenants, with different lives that determine whether they fill in forms. We as politicians, and people who deliver leaflets and get others to do so on our behalf, know that some people will always respond and others never will, even if, objectively speaking, they need to do so.
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
Surely, if a tenant is aggrieved with the process, they are likely to fill in the survey response.
Siobhain McDonagh
I have been an MP for 25 years and a member of the Labour party for 42 years. I am really interested in political communication and getting people to respond. I have to tell the hon. Member that a substantial number of people will never respond, and it is often those who live in the most dire circumstances. If we are serious about improving standards, we need the most structured inspection system that we can afford—I appreciate that it is public money.
I do not deny that anything done in the Bill is a step forward and an improvement, but if we are going to spend public money on behalf of some of our most vulnerable constituents, we want to make it the best-spent money that we can. Let us get it right. We are not starting with a clean piece of paper; we are starting with 17 years of experience with Ofsted and years of experience with the Care Quality Commission. We know a great deal about how inspection regimes work.
Dehenna Davison
On the point about making sure we get the system right, the hon. Lady mentioned public funds, which is clearly a crucial issue. That is precisely why the regime is being designed so that those who are most at risk will be inspected more frequently. That includes not just larger landlords but smaller landlords where there is a clear indication of issues that have been found previously. Inspections can also be done on a more reactive basis. If a report goes to the regulator to suggest that there is a specific issue with a smaller landlord, the risk profile will be there and the landlord could be inspected much more frequently.
Siobhain McDonagh
I am glad that there will be reactive inspections. I am not suggesting that there should not be. What I am saying is that, along with reactive inspections, there should be a regular and rigid routine of inspections. That way, everybody knows that they will have an inspection once during a four-year period. That does not seem to me to be over-regulation, certainly given recent events in social housing stock.
Matthew Pennycook
I have to say that I am slightly disappointed with the Minister’s speech. I am not convinced by her arguments. There is clearly a debate here about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill as to the regulator’s functions. I am convinced that we need to be slightly more prescriptive. I say that for a couple of reasons.
First, my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden made a good point on the size of providers. It has certainly been my experience that some of the smaller providers are the most egregious when it comes to standards, partly because they do not face the reputational risk, or the extent of investigations by Members of Parliament or others into their activities, that some of the larger providers do. I do not think the size of providers should play a part in who is inspected.
We think it is important that all providers are inspected within the four-year period. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend: it is not enough to base a reactive inspections regime, to the extent that that is a part of the process provided by the clause, on surveys or desktop studies alone. We do not leave schools out of the Ofsted inspections process because we are not getting complaints about them. We inspected all schools routinely within a certain period.
Secondly, to the extent that the amendment is prescriptive, I do not think that it is particularly onerous on the regulator. All we are asking for is an inspection within four years of the Bill receiving Royal Assent and every four years thereafter. That four-year timeframe was proposed by the Government in their White Paper; we did not pluck it out of thin air. I think it is entirely reasonable to ask for an inspections regime to take place on that basis. If the regulator needs the resources to carry out those inspections, let us ensure that it has them. However, I struggle to understand why the Government do not feel they can add an element of prescription to the inspections plan in the way that amendment 16 proposes. We will therefore press the amendment to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Matthew Pennycook
We welcome the introduction of performance improvement plans as a sensible measure to drive up standards where registered providers are falling short. I would, however, like to raise a few issues in relation to how these plans will work in practice.
We note that the tenant is provided with a copy of the performance improvement plan, which is drawn up where a registered provider has failed to reach a statutory standard for properties under their responsibility, only if the tenant makes a written request for one. Given the strong case for ensuring that all affected tenants know how their landlord is performing and what decisions they are making, we question whether that is sufficient. We note that this matter was also explored during Committee stage in the other place.
In the material it supplied in relation to consideration of the Bill, the Chartered Institute of Housing argued:
“Consideration should be given as to how tenants will be alerted should any poor performance lead to the regulator requiring a performance improvement plan”.
The Local Government Association has also put on record its desire to see the publication of guidance on the regulator’s requirements and timescales for preparing and implementing performance improvement plans.
In the light of these points, I hope the Minister could clarify, either today or in writing—I am happy to take another letter from her—the operation of the provisions in this clause in relation to the following. First, how will tenants be notified if the poor performance of their registered provider leads to the regulator initiating the process of preparing an improvement plan? Will tenants, for example, have the chance to input their views about the problems identified and the measures specified for improvement in these plans?
Secondly, what is the rationale for specifying that tenants can only request a copy of the plan if they require one, rather than being provided with the plan as a matter of course along with any information about what it is, why it came about and what changes they can expect to see as a result—an arrangement that strikes us as more in keeping with the aims outlined in the Government White Paper? Thirdly, is the Minister able to tell us when the guidance on the regulator’s requirements and timescales for preparing and implementing performance improvement plans will be published? Lastly, does the Minister expect that performance improvement plans will be used as a first resort to give underperforming landlords the chance to improve before the regulator considers more punitive measures?
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his questions. I will follow up in writing and provide some more clarity. Where there is a performance improvement plan in place, the provider is required to publish that, so it will be freely available to tenants and, indeed, to members of the public.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 31
Emergency remedial action
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 31, page 27, line 28, leave out “may” and insert “must”.
This amendment would ensure that emergency remedial action takes place on every occasion where the conditions in subsections (2) to (4) of section 225B inserted by clause 31, are met rather than being discretionary.
Matthew Pennycook
Amendment 17, in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North, is extremely straightforward, and I will therefore be very brief in speaking to it.
Clause 31 relates to emergency remedial action. It amends section 225 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, adding new sections 225A to 225H, which enable the regulator to arrange for an authorised person to take emergency remedial action in instances where a tenant faces an imminent health and safety risk. We strongly support it. The purpose of amendment 17 is simply to ensure that emergency repairs of the kind proposed must take place, rather than may take place—with apologies to the hon. Member for Harrow East, we return to the “may” and “must” distinction—on every occasion where the relevant conditions have been met.
It is worth briefly touching on what those conditions—as set out in proposed new section 225B(2) to (4)—are, because they are stringent, which is why we think that the regulator should be required to act in all instances. For the premises of a social housing provider to be considered appropriate for possible emergency remedial action under clause 31, a survey of its condition must have been completed; the premises must have been found to be improperly maintained; its condition has to have been found to cause an imminent risk of serious harm to the health or safety of the tenants who reside in it or neighbouring residents; and the provider has to have failed to comply with an enforcement notice requiring it to take action to bring the premises up to standard.
Our contention is that any premises managed by any provider found to have satisfied all those tests should automatically receive emergency repairs, rather than merely be considered for them. As such, we think the replacement of the offending “may” with a “must” is vital. I hope the Minister will give the issue considered thought.
Dehenna Davison
It is the responsibility of every registered provider of social housing to ensure that they provide safe and decent housing to their tenants. That means maintaining properties in accordance with the Regulator of Social Housing’s standards and addressing problems issues quickly where problems are identified.
Where a provider cannot or will not address issues that risk the health and safety of tenants, it is essential that the regulator can act. The clause therefore allows the regulator to authorise persons to enter a property and conduct emergency remedial works in cases where failings risk causing serious harm to tenants. For the regulator to do so, it must first conduct a survey of the premises, be satisfied that the provider has failed to maintain the premises in accordance with relevant standards and that the failure poses a serious health and safety risk, and give an enforcement notice requiring those failures to be addressed. If those grounds are met, the regulator may step in and take emergency remedial action. The amendment moved by the shadow Minister would mean that the regulator must take emergency remedial action when the relevant grounds are met.
I have made it clear several times that nothing is more important to the Government than keeping people safe in their homes. Sadly, however, I cannot accept the amendment, because we feel it is essential that the regulator retains the independence and flexibility to determine where it is appropriate to use the power set out in the clause. That reflects regulatory best practice, whereby the regulator has the operational independence to regulate the sector effectively by deciding which of its enforcement powers to use in any given case.
Matthew Pennycook
If a provider has failed all the tests in the clause, what other powers might the regulator use if it did not feel that emergency remedial action was necessary? What other things might it do to address a series of failings that triggered its ability to act along the lines we have discussed?
Dehenna Davison
We have talked, for example, about enforcement notices and possible fines, which are clearly measures available to the regulator. One of the things that we are concerned about at this stage—this has been drawn out at various points today—is binding the hands of the regulator. We do not want to commit it to one course of action.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that we are providing the framework for the regulator? As politicians, we should not be telling it how to do its job. If we make the regulations and powers strong enough and give the regulator teeth, whether the word is “may” or “must” becomes irrelevant, because it will take action anyway.
Dehenna Davison
My hon. Friend makes the point extremely well and much more strongly than I did. She is absolutely right. We are setting out the framework of what the regulator can use and will have access to. It will have a full suite of powers available to ensure that it is looking out for tenants and that they are in the best possible housing.
To summarise, we do not wish to bind the hands of the regulator too stringently. We want to give it a suite of powers and the operational independence to choose which powers to use. On that basis, I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Matthew Pennycook
I appreciate the Minister’s concern about binding the regulator too rigidly. I push back slightly against the point made by the hon. Member for Erewash: I think it is wrong to say—the experience of recent years shows this—that just because we give a regulator a power, it necessarily uses it, and certainly not in a proactive way. At this stage, however, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: 8, in clause 31, page 29, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 6 on page 30 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4)(b) may be left in a place on the premises until the emergency remedial action has been taken provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of taking the emergency remedial action and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 9, in clause 31, page 30, line 6, at end insert—
“(6) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 225C), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”
Where emergency remedial action is taken on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the work is carried out.
Amendment 10, in clause 31, page 30, leave out lines 29 to 36 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4) may be left in a place on the premises until the emergency remedial action has been taken provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of taking the emergency remedial action and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 11, in clause 31, page 30, line 36, at end insert—
“(5A) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 225C), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”—(Dehenna Davison.)
Where emergency remedial action is taken on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the work is carried out.
Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 32 to 35 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Clauses 36 to 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 4 agreed to.
Clauses 39 and 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Clauses 41 to 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 44
Short title
Amendment made: 12, in clause 44, page 37, line 10, leave out subsection (2).—(Dehenna Davison.)
This amendment removes the privilege amendment inserted by the Lords.
Clause 44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Regulator duty to ensure continuity of secure tenancy in cases of threat to safety
“(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 92K insert—
‘92KA Duty to ensure continuity of secure tenancy in cases of threat to safety
(1) This section applies where—
(a) a registered provider of social housing has granted a secure tenancy of a dwelling-house in England to a person (whether as the sole tenant or a joint tenant), and
(b) the registered provider is satisfied that there is a threat to the personal safety of that person or of a member of that person’s household which means there is a risk to their personal safety unless they move.
(2) When subsection (1) applies, the regulator must ensure that the registered provider grants the tenant a new secure tenancy which is–
(a) on terms at least equivalent to the existing tenancy; and
(b) in a dwelling where the threat to the tenant’s personal safety does not apply.
(3) In this section, a “threat to personal safety” means any threat of violence, including in circumstances of—
(a) domestic abuse where the perpetrator does not live at the same address as the victim;
(b) an escalating neighbour dispute;
(c) a threat of targeted youth or gang violence.
(4) In assessing the threat under subsection (1)(b), the registered provider must act in accordance with any relevant police advice provided to–
(a) the registered provider,
(b) the tenant, or
(c) any member of the tenant’s household.
(5) In the event that a registered provider is unable to ensure the provision of an appropriate new secure tenancy pursuant to subsection (2), the regulator must ensure that the registered provider concerned co-operates with other registered providers to ensure an appropriate new secure tenancy is provided in a timely manner.’”—(Helen Hayes.)
This new clause would require the regulator to ensure that tenants whose safety is threatened are granted alternative accommodation by their housing provider on equivalent terms to their existing tenancy. It also requires the regulator to ensure that a provider which is unable to provide appropriate alternative accommodation co-operates with other providers to do so.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The new clause proposes a small but significant amendment to housing law to give additional security to social housing tenants who suffer the consequences of a threat of serious violence. The clause arises from my experience of representing my constituent Georgia, an NHS worker whose teenage son was threatened by gang members. Georgia was a housing association tenant who had lived in her home for nine years. She and her children were happy in their home, which she had recently redecorated—then her neighbours told her that one afternoon, while she was at work, they had heard loud banging on her door. Georgia eventually coaxed out of her son the information that he had witnessed something that local gang members had not wanted him to see, and they had come to her home looking for him. Georgia contacted the police, who told her that she had to move immediately for her family’s safety. She got in touch with her housing association, which told her that it was the council’s responsibility to provide emergency housing. The council placed Georgia and her children in temporary accommodation, which was in another borough, of poor quality and expensive. Georgia’s children did not have enough space, the flat was damp and dirty, it was hard for her children to do their homework and Georgia started to suffer from panic attacks that affected her work.
By the time that Georgia’s friend got in touch with me because she was worried about Georgia’s health and the wellbeing of her children, they had been in the temporary accommodation for six months, and her housing association had started the process of ending her tenancy because she was no longer living in her flat. The consequence of this, in the context of the UK’s housing crisis, would have been Georgia and her children being added to the statistics of homeless households, in temporary accommodation—potentially indefinitely—and at the bottom of the housing waiting list. No one should become homeless because their child is threatened.
In one London borough, 47 housing association tenants—at the time that I did this research, earlier this year—have required homelessness assistance from the council as a result of a threat of violence since 2019. Across the country, that means that thousands of families have had to leave their home each year, with their secure tenancies potentially at risk, on top of having to rebuild their lives in a new area. Homelessness is fundamentally destabilising, involving the loss of a sanctuary and a place in one’s community. It is deeply traumatising to have to make an emergency move because of a threat of violence and start again somewhere else. Our housing system should do everything possible to help families in such circumstances to make the transition to a new, permanent home as soon as possible to limit the harm caused by that threat.
I am delighted that the new clause has the support of both Shelter and the National Housing Federation. Shelter has also highlighted the case of Corey Junior Davis, or CJ, whose mum had asked her housing association for an urgent move after her son had been threatened and told her that he feared for his life. CJ’s mum had done everything possible to keep her son safe, including sending him to stay with relatives in a different area, but six months after her initial request, while they were still waiting for a move, CJ was shot and killed. I have also met several constituents who have sent their children away to keep them safe, because they know what the consequences of an emergency move to temporary accommodation would mean and they fear those consequences. That is not a choice that any parent should have to make.
The new clause would have the effect of requiring social landlords to protect the tenancy rights of secure tenants who have had to move due to a threat of serious violence, and would place a duty on social landlords to co-operate in a situation in which the tenant’s current landlord does not hold stock in an area that is considered safe for the tenant to move to. The threshold for these new duties to be triggered is that the police consider an emergency move to be necessary. Georgia was troubled by what had happened to her son, but it had not occurred to her that she would have to move out of the home that she loved until the police said that that was necessary to safeguard her child’s life. The group of people who would be protected by the new clause are not net additional demand on the social housing system; they are already secure social tenants, and the current social home that they are vacating would of course be returned to the landlord to be let to a new tenant.
There are many reasons why people become homeless due to no fault on their part. The clause will not protect all of them, but I am tabling this new clause for two reasons. The first is that the loss of a secure social tenancy, and effectively going to the bottom of an impossibly long housing waiting list, is far too high a price to pay for being the victim of a threat of violence. Georgia and her children suffered a grave detriment, simply because some violent gang members decided to threaten her son. The second is that serious violence is a scourge on the lives of all those that it affects. Far too many young people are living with the deep trauma of things that they have witnessed or friends that they have lost to knife or gun crime. We have a duty to do everything possible to stop the cycle of violence and the trauma that it causes in our communities. Supporting the victims of threats of violence to regain stability and move on with their lives is one way in which we can do that. Plunging victims into the unstable, often appalling, world of temporary accommodation has the opposite effect. We have the opportunity to change that.
Bob Blackman
Does my hon. Friend—I classify her as my hon. Friend because we have co-operated on so many other things—not accept that one of the problems is the shortage of suitable accommodation? I had a similar event in my constituency: a family was encouraged by the police to seek alternative accommodation, the registered social landlord said, “We don’t have any,” and naturally there was a problem as a result. Does she accept that providing suitable accommodation within a reasonable distance that allows children to go school, perhaps, and the tenant to get to work will be very challenging? I wonder whether she has considered that she is putting the onus on the registered social landlord to provide that. They may not operate within suitable areas, or may not be able to get co-operation from another registered social landlord. Would it not be better to have a range of potential organisations that might provide accommodation in what are, as she said, exceptional circumstances, rather than putting the onus on the registered social landlord?
Bob Blackman
I understand that, Sir Edward, but this is an important issue that merits further explanation.
Helen Hayes
I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. The new clause would impose a duty of co-operation on registered social landlords, which is designed to deal exactly with such a circumstance, where accommodation cannot be found that is safe for the tenant within the area in which the current landlord holds property. These are of course very challenging cases. I have certainly come across constituency cases in which the tenant simply cannot bring themselves to move from their home because the consequences are so dire for them, even when an offer has been made in an area that is considered by the police to be safe for them.
The new clause will not resolve every single circumstance, but in Georgia’s case, when I phoned a senior director in her large registered housing provider she was provided with a new tenancy in a safe borough, and signed that tenancy within a week. With greater will on the part of registered providers, and I believe that placing a duty would prompt that greater will, much more can be done to stop the cycle of violence in our communities.
Matthew Pennycook
I rise briefly to support my hon. Friend’s new clause, Georgia’s law. She made an extremely powerful case for it. I believe that it is sensible and proportionate, and will have a significant impact. I am sure that many hon. Members present have dealt with the kind of cases that she outlined—I certainly have. We are talking about a small but significant minority of tenants in England, but they find themselves, as the hon. Member for Harrow East said, in the exceptional circumstances of a police referral. All the new clause asks for is the protection of their tenancy rights, which should not be lost when they are forced to move, and greater co-operation between registered providers.
It is no surprise that the new clause is supported by organisations such as the NHF and Shelter. I think this is a very strong new clause, and I very much hope that the Government are minded to act on this issue, if not today then on Report. It is a crucial provision and will benefit the lives of many of our constituents.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood for tabling the new clause and for her engagement on the issue some weeks ago when we met to discuss it. I am grateful to her for raising the case of Georgia and her boys, and that of CJ. They are both horrendous cases, which give us all food for thought. I thank her for her words on the need to reduce violence more widely. That is something I am incredibly passionate about on a personal level too.
Before I begin, I want to clarify some technicalities. The new clause would provide protection where registered providers have granted their tenants secure tenancies. Secure tenancies are only granted by local authorities, so we will talk to the intention of the new clause, which is I believe around assured tenancies, as well as those in secure tenancies given by local authorities that are registered with the regulator.
We do not expect anyone who is threatened with violence to feel like they cannot move to safety for fear of losing their security of tenure. There are already a number of policies in place that seek to protect people at risk of violence who are in need of urgent rehousing. If a local authority grants a victim of domestic abuse, for example, a new tenancy for reasons connected with the abuse, it is required to give them a secure lifetime tenancy, rather than a tenancy with a fixed term.
Local authorities are also required to give people who need to move for their safety reasonable preference for social housing under section 166A(3) of the Housing Act 1996. Chapter 4 of the statutory guidance encourages local authorities to give additional preference or high priority to those fleeing violence, including intimidated witnesses, those escaping serious antisocial behaviour and people fleeing domestic violence.
By extension, those protections can be applied to private registered providers through duties to co-operate with their local authority in housing people with priority. Most private registered providers let 50% to 100% of their tenancies via nominations from their local authority. The current approach, which considers applicants for social housing on a case-by-case basis, and retains some flexibility, is the most appropriate means of determining whether a household should be granted a new tenancy.
The new clause would have the effect of requiring registered providers to relocate tenants and provide them with a new tenancy agreement. As we know, there are sadly many people with urgent housing needs who need to move immediately—for example, families who are living in conditions that pose a serious risk to their health. Going further than the existing protections by requiring registered providers to prioritise people fleeing violence above others would undermine some of the flexibilities given to housing providers to respond to the specific requirements of those in urgent need of social housing locally.
It is a fundamental right of the landlord to determine who they grant a tenancy to and who lives in their property. Retaining that right is key to registered providers being able to achieve their goal of creating safe and stable communities. It is therefore important to retain some flexibility for social landlords to decide their policy on allocations and who to house. That is integral to the effective functioning of the wider system.
Finally, as I am sure the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood will be aware, we are taking steps to reform tenancy law to protect the security of tenure for social tenants. After section 21 is removed, all tenancies given by private registered providers will have greater security of tenure.
On that basis, I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause. I am very willing to work with her to see what more can be done in this area to prevent any more cases like that of Georgia and her boys emerging.
Helen Hayes
I thank my hon. Friend the shadow Minister for his support for the new clause. I am grateful to the Minister for her engagement and discussions prior to Committee stage, and for her comments just now. I would be more than happy to work with the Minister to resolve any drafting clarifications and on the intention of the new clause.
The Minister mentioned existing protections, but surely if they were working as they should, cases such as Georgia’s would simply not be arising in their current number. When I first spoke to the local authority that covers the part of my constituency where Georgia was resident, it said that registered providers, housing associations, fall back on the local authority’s duty to provide emergency accommodation. It says that happens all the time, and that there is no regard for what happens to the tenant, given all the destabilisation that comes from a very long time in temporary accommodation.
Certainly in London, on paper the local authority has a duty to provide emergency accommodation and then to rehouse that resident. There is nothing in the priority need criteria, however, that would have given Georgia or her family any significant level of priority need—certainly not a sufficient level of priority, because the violence would not have been taken into account. She was housed with a roof over her head in another borough, where it was thought it was safe for her to be. As it turned out, it was not safe for her, but it was judged to be a borough distant from where the initial threat was made. There was nothing in her circumstances to give her a level of priority band above about band C. She was never going to be rehoused, and because of the consequence of a threat to her son, she went from being a secure tenant in a very stable situation to facing, realistically, an indefinite period of time in temporary accommodation.
I simply do not believe that that situation is fair, and the current system is not functioning as it should. I acknowledge that there are many people who need to move and that our housing system is absolutely full of people who have a pressing and real need to do so. We also have a duty as a society to prevent harm from serious violence, and that is why that additional protection is needed over and above the current protections in law outlined by the Minister. I am happy to withdraw the new clause, but it is my intention to re-table it on Report, when I will divide the House if there is insufficient evidence of progress, because I strongly believe that this needs to get on the statute book. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
“After section 217 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (accreditation) insert—
‘217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
(1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide that a person may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.
(2) Regulations specifying work for the purpose of subsection (1) may make provision by reference to—
(a) one or more specified activities, or
(b) the circumstances in which activities are carried out.
(3) Regulations made under this section may, in particular, require—
(a) the possession of a specified qualification or experience of a specified kind,
(b) participation in or completion of a specified programme or course of training, or
(c) compliance with a specified condition.
(4) Regulations may make provision for any of the following matters—
(a) the establishment and continuance of a regulatory body;
(b) the keeping of a register of qualified social housing practitioners;
(c) requirements relating to education and training before and after qualification;
(d) standards of conduct and performance;
(e) discipline and fitness to practise;
(f) removal or suspension from registration or the imposition of conditions on registration;
(g) investigation and enforcement by or on behalf of the regulatory body, and appeals against the decisions or actions of the regulatory body.’”—(Matthew Pennycook.)
This new clause would require managers of social housing to have appropriate qualifications and expertise.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
This is, quite consciously, a probing amendment. As a result of the Regulation of Social Housing (Influence of Local Authorities) (England) Regulations 2017, the amount of local authority influence over private registered providers was reduced through the loss of local authority voting rights and restrictions on the percentage of officers a local authority may nominate as board members. The rationale for that reduction of influence was that it was necessary for the Government to relinquish sufficient control to allow the Office for National Statistics to reverse its 2015 classification of housing associations into the public sector following the Cameron Government’s decision to force registered providers to cut social sector rents by 1% a year for four years, with all that that entailed for the ability of social landlords to fund essential services, spend on repairs and maintenance, carry out retrofit work and build new social homes. If you recall, Sir Edward, it was done as a means of slashing the housing benefit bill.
Dehenna Davison
As the shadow Minister rightly outlined, new clause 5 seeks to ensure representation of tenants and councillors on the board of registered providers. While I agree with the sentiment behind the amendment—that we must ensure that the voice of social housing tenants is heard loud and clear in matters that affect them—I am afraid I must disagree that it is the best approach to take.
Tenants speak from their lived experience, which can bring a different and valuable perspective to that of other board members. They should be listened to at all stages of decision making. However, we do not think that mandating the inclusion of a tenant board member is necessarily the best way to achieve that aim.
Eddie Hughes
I have some experience of this, having been a councillor representative on the board of Walsall Housing Group at a time when it was a prescribed position. I distinctly remember a couple of instances prior to my being on the board when the Conservative spot was decided by random voting or people having been coerced into filling it. That seemed completely inappropriate.
When I became chair of the board of that group, we took a different view—to adopt a skills-based approach, determining that some of the skills would be best met by those who had experience of being a tenant. It was not prescribed that we were saving places for tenants; it just became a natural order of business that they would have the appropriate skills and experience to fill some of the vacancies on the board. Speaking from personal experience, too prescriptive an approach can sometimes lead to unintended consequences: people filling a place just because they need somebody under a certain heading to fill it.
Dehenna Davison
I thank my hon. Friend for setting out his own experience. It is an area the Government are very concerned about, and it comes back to the Committee’s debate today about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill.
Some housing providers already have tenants on boards, and they have been effective in championing residents’ voices, but this is not the case for everyone. Tenant board members are required to put their legal duties as a board member before their role as the representative for residents, which can cause confusion and conflict. Other structures can be just as successful and involve a more diverse range of tenants in decision making. That can range from formal consultations, focus groups and local events to appointed board observers and membership of panels focused on scrutiny, procurement or complaints that feed in at all stages of the decision-making process. We want to retain a flexible approach that promotes tenant empowerment and engagement for all tenants without forcing the statutory duties of a board member on a single individual.
The Regulator of Social Housing already sets standards for the outcomes that landlords must achieve in respect of tenant engagement. It will review, consult and update them as part of the new consumer regulation regime. The regulator will also ask landlords to demonstrate how they engage with tenants and require them to report on tenant satisfaction measures, as part of their assessment and inspection of landlords in the new regime. That is important because for the first time it makes tenants’ experiences a measure by which housing providers will be judged and held to account by the regulator.
There will also be improved transparency measures for tenants to be able hold their landlord to account. They need to know how it is performing and what decisions it is making. That information needs to be easily available. Earlier today we touched on the access to information scheme that we will introduce. That will enable tenants of private registered providers to request information from their landlords.
In addition, we have made funding available for a residents’ opportunities and empowerment programme, which will provide training to residents across the country on how to engage effectively and hold landlords to account. I hope that I have provided enough reassurance for the shadow Minister to withdraw his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that useful response and the hon. Member for Walsall North for his contribution. The Minister touched on an interesting issue when exploring the details of the Bill before today. There is not only potential for confusion but potential conflict about the role of a board member, particularly in the case of an elected councillor.
I was interested to read when looking into the death of Awaab Ishak that two councillors were removed by the board of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing for drawing attention to their concerns about buildings being pulled down—I am not saying that was anything specifically related to his death, but it related to concerns they had about a particular decision by the provider that was in conflict with their role.
In general terms, I understand the concern about being too prescriptive. This area should perhaps be kept under review. Whether it is best practice by some registered providers, guidance or whatever it might be, it is important to keep under review how to ensure that we can get the most representative and effective board of registered providers. As I said, this is a probing new clause. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 6
Standards relating to consumer matters
‘(1) Section 193 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2)—
(a) after paragraph (d) insert—
“(da) major repair or improvement works,
(db) estate regeneration,
(dc) service charges,”
(b) after paragraph (ga) insert—
“(gb) advice and assistance in relation to the prevention of homelessness,”
(c) after paragraph (h) insert—
“(ha) provision for urgent transfer of tenancies in relation to tenants affected by domestic abuse or other violence”’.—(Matthew Pennycook.)
This new clause would allow the regulator to set standards in relation to major repair or improvement works, estate regeneration, service charges, homelessness prevention, and urgent moves for residents at risk of violence.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
In rising to speak to the final new clause, I thank hon. Members for their indulgence. They have listened to me a lot today.
Matthew Pennycook
Absolutely right.
We finish with an important new clause. It relates to what comes under the rubric of consumer standards as defined by the Bill. Since its initial publication in June, the Bill has been improved in several important respects. Today we have urged the Government to go further in relation to some areas and we will continue to do so, but we welcome the introduction of the consumer standards in relation to safety, transparency, competence and conduct.
However, there are other matters of real importance to social tenants that the Bill, as drafted, does not extend new consumer standards to. They include major repairs or improvement works, estate regeneration, service charges, advice and assistance in relation to the prevention of homelessness and urgent moves resulting from the risk of domestic abuse or serious violence.
New clause 6 simply seeks to ensure that the regulator has the freedom to set standards for registered providers in respect of each of those areas of housing management by amending section 193 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to include them within the scope of what is considered a consumer matter.
There is arguably a need for the regulator to carry out a thorough consultation about consumer standards to better understand what housing management issues currently matter most to tenants. However, we know both from organisations providing housing support, guidance and expert advice services and, I would argue, from our own postbags, that the issues covered by new clause 6 are important to tenants. There is an arguable case for placing them in the Bill to at least allow the regulator, which has probably consulted and developed them, to set consumer standards in relation to some of these issues at a later date. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Dehenna Davison
As the shadow Minister outlined, the new clause seeks to amend the Regulator of Social Housing’s powers to set consumer standards in a number of ways. All the issues that he raised are important. Although I cannot accept the amendment, I will seek to address the issues raised in turn.
On major repairs and improvements, all social housing landlords should be delivering decent social housing and prioritising repairs and improvements that need to be made to ensure that housing is up to standard. The regulator is already able to set standards relating to the nature, extent and quality of accommodation, and the facilities and services, provided. That can include specified rules about maintenance, which would cover major repairs.
The regulator’s current homes standard already requires registered providers to provide a repairs and maintenance service that meets the needs of tenants, with the objective of getting repairs and improvements right the first time. The regulator will consult on and revise the standards following the passage of legislation and the issuance of Government directions.
On estate regeneration, let me be clear that I agree that landlords should be adequately planning for major regeneration projects and delivering planned maintenance. However, including that area as part of the regulator’s standard-setting remit is not necessary. As I have noted before, the regulator already has the powers required to set standards required relating to maintenance and repairs. Those standards apply to all homes, regardless of whether they are part of a regeneration project.
Existing legislation also enables the regulator to set standards relating to the contribution of landlords to the environmental, social and economic wellbeing of the areas in which their property is situated, which relates closely to the intended outcomes of regeneration projects. The regulator already sets expectations about neighbourhood management in its consumer standards and will be consulting on revised expectations under the proposed new standards, once the Bill has been passed.
It remains the responsibility of landlords to effectively manage their stock and deliver decent housing for their residents. We believe that a specific standard-setting power for regeneration is unnecessary. Effective asset management is already a focus of the in-depth assessments that the regulator conducts, which mean that landlords have to demonstrate to the regulator that they are able to maintain adequate levels of investment in the homes that they are responsible for.
I turn to service charges. The Government’s policy statement on rents for social housing encourages registered providers of social housing to keep any service charge increases within the consumer prices index plus 1% per year—the current limit on annual increases in social housing rents—in order to help ensure that charges stay affordable. Following our recent consultation on social housing rent increases, the Chancellor announced as part of his autumn statement that the Government will cap the increase in social rents at a maximum of 7% in 2023-24. In line with the proposal set out in our consultation, we will amend the policy statement to encourage providers to apply the 7% limit to any service charge increases in 2023-24.
Our policy statement also states that tenants should be supplied with clear information on how service charges are set; in the case of social rent properties, providers are expected to identify service charges separately from the rent charge. The new clause is not necessary to facilitate the regulator’s requiring that transparency from providers.
Furthermore, service charges are already governed by legislation in the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which states that service charges can be charged only to the extent that they are reasonably incurred and that enforcement of that is via the courts. Consequently, it is not appropriate or necessary to add to the Bill a specific standard-setting power relating to service charges.
I move on to the issue of homelessness. Let me be crystal clear: the Government are committed to preventing homelessness, and I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North on the incredible work he did on that as a Minister. Since the introduction of the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, more than half a million households have been supported into secure accommodation. We are investing £2 billion over the next three years into addressing homelessness and rough sleeping, and in September we published our bold new strategy “Ending rough sleeping for good”. We have also provided £316 million this year for the homelessness prevention grant, which local authorities can use flexibly to meet their homelessness objectives—including to work with providers to prevent evictions.
I am not in a position to accept the new clause, as I believe the existing legislation is sufficient to achieve the outcome that the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is seeking. The regulator’s existing tenancy standard already requires social landlords to develop and provide services that will support tenants to maintain their tenancy and prevent unnecessary evictions. The regulator’s standards will be consulted on and updated following the passage of legislation and the issuance of Government directions. Consequently, homelessness prevention is already a priority for providers; the regulator plays a vital role in support.
I move on to the urgent transfer of tenancies in cases of domestic abuse and violence. Again, to be absolutely clear we do not expect anyone who is threatened with violence to feel that they cannot move to safety for fear of losing their security of tenure. A range of measures are therefore already in place to protect people at risk of violence and in need of urgent rehousing, some of which I have already outlined that in earlier contributions.
Chapter 4 of the statutory guidance encourages additional preference to be given to those fleeing violence, including people fleeing domestic violence, and private registered providers have a role in housing such people through their duties to co-operate, as I outlined earlier.
I will not rehash any more of the arguments that I made in response to the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood and her new clause 1. However, I should add that in schedule 5 to the Bill, we are already amending the regulator’s standard-setting powers to include policies and procedures in connection with behaviour that amounts to domestic abuse within the meaning of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021.
For all the reasons I stated, I do not believe that the amendments to the regulator’s standard-setting powers are necessary. I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to withdraw his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that response. I am somewhat reassured by it, to the extent that she has laid out—in considerable detail, in some cases—the ways in which some of the issues of concern flagged in the new clause are appropriately covered by the standards, guidance, policies and procedures. My reservation is about whether those existing processes have the effect that would be achieved by allowing the regulator itself to set standards and consumer standards.
Given how complex an issue this is, I will take away the Minister’s response and look at it in more detail, but I reserve the right to come back to the issue on Report. We think it is important that some of these real issues of concern to tenants be given due consideration when it comes to whether they are brought within the new regulatory regime to be established by the Bill. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
Dehenna Davison
I have my Oscars-style speech of thanks to give before we finish today. First, a huge thank you to you, Sir Edward, for chairing the Committee so successfully and professionally, and for keeping us all in check. We are MPs; we always need someone to keep a good gaze over us to ensure that we are behaving.
I thank all members of the Committee for a constructive debate. One of the most reassuring things has been that there is such cross-party consensus in recognising that the Bill is absolutely needed and that we can all very much get behind its aims.
I thank the Clerks for their stellar work and my officials, who have been brilliant at speedily giving me all the information that I need. I thank the fabulous Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford, again for keeping us in check on the Government Benches.
I also say a huge thank you to Grenfell United, Shelter and others for their engagement on this important legislation. As the Minister, I feel grateful to have had the opportunity to take the Bill through Committee. I look forward to its coming back on Report; as I said, I will engage with Members before that point.
In my final breath, I say a massive good luck to both teams tonight. I am sure most people know which one I am supporting.
Matthew Pennycook
Briefly, Sir Edward, I thank you for your chairmanship of the Committee and the Clerks for all their work to prepare us. I thank the Minister for the constructive tone in which she approached the debate, and all hon. Members for the considerable amount of expertise and insight put forward in our debates. I, too, thank all the organisations, not least Grenfell United, that sent us their views and engaged with us on what they see as important in how the Bill could be strengthened.
As I said at the start, the Bill is uncontroversial and we welcome the vast majority of measures. We want to see it strengthened and we have made the case for that today. We will continue to make the case on Report for those areas of the Bill where we want to see further improvement, but I am glad that it can make swift progress to its next stage.
The Chair
I thank you for being so expeditious. My fellow Chair, who is a Scot Nat, has had an easy ride.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly to be reported.
Social Housing and Regulation Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chair
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email any speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. All the normal rules apply.
Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and then a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. I am sure we can take those matters formally, without debate. I first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Ordered,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 29 November) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 November;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 December;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 8 December;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 13 December;
(2) the proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 13; Schedule 1; Clause 14; Schedule 2; Clauses 15 to 35; Schedule 3; Clauses 36 to 38; Schedule 4; Clauses 39 and 40; Schedule 5; Clauses 41 to 44; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(3) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 13 December.—(Dehenna Davison.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Dehenna Davison.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.
We will now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. A selection and grouping list for today’s sittings is available in the room. It shows how the clauses and selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar issues. Please note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order they are debated, but in the order that they appear on the amendment paper. The selection and grouping list shows the order of debates. Decisions on each amendment and on whether each clause should stand part of the Bill are taken when we come to the relevant clause.
A Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group is called first. Other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on all or any of the amendments in that group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of the debate on a group of amendments, I shall call the Member who moved the lead amendment again. Before they sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision on it. If any Member wishes to press another amendment in the group to a vote, they will need to let me know in advance.
Clause 1
Fundamental objectives
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 1, page 1, line 5, at end insert—
‘(aa) after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) to ensure the provision of care and support services in supported exempt accommodation and in temporary accommodation are adequate, well-managed, safe, and of appropriate quality,”’.
This amendment would ensure that support services provided to residents of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation for those properties that already fall within consumer regulation are adequate and of an acceptable quality.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8—Standards relating to supported and temporary accommodation—
‘(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 192 (Overview)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “social housing” insert “, supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation”
(3) In section 193 (Standards relating to consumer matters)—
(a) in subsection (1), after “social housing” insert “or accommodation to which subsections (1A) to (1D) applies”
(b) after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State, after consultation with the regulator, may by order bring into consumer regulation accommodation managed or in the control of a registered provider that falls within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D).
(1B) An order under subsection (1A) may apply to either subsection (1C) or (1D) only or to both and orders commencing either can be made separately at different times and for any part of England.
(1C) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is supported exempt accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1D) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is temporary accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1E) The Secretary of State may by regulations set out the classes of accommodation that fall within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D) and may define each class by reference to the Housing Benefit Regulations 2006 or the Universal Credit Regulations 2013.”
(c) in subsection (2), after paragraph (2)(d) insert—
“(da) standards relating to supported exempt accommodation or temporary accommodation,”’.
This new clause would ensure that providers of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation who are registered with the regulator and charge market rents covered by housing benefit are brought within the scope of the new consumer regulatory regime.
Matthew Pennycook
It is a pleasure to begin our line-by-line consideration of the Bill with you in the Chair, Sir Edward, and in a Committee with a considerable amount of housing expertise, which I hope will put us in good stead for further improving the Bill. The Opposition have consistently maintained that the Bill is uncontroversial legislation, and we welcome it and the measures it contains.
We desperately need to build more social homes, but we also need to ensure that our existing stock is of good quality and well managed. Almost half a million social homes fail to meet the Government’s decent homes standard and, as that standard is not a requirement, it is almost impossible to enforce.
The Regulator of Social Housing can and does react to systemic failings among registered providers—for example, the request for evidence issued in relation to damp and mould following the coroner’s report into the death of two-year-old Awaab Ishak in 2020—but at present it has no proactive way of regulating consumer standards. The spotlight of media attention, tenant campaigning or intervention by individual hon. Members should not be required to trigger the appropriate response to substandard conditions in social housing, yet that is all too often the case.
To ensure that tenants are properly protected by a robust, effective system of regulation, major reform is needed. Indeed, it is long overdue, and the Secretary of State was right to concede, in the wake of Awaab’s untimely death, that the Government have been too slow to toughen regulation in this area.
Despite its limited number of clauses, the Bill is therefore of real significance for millions of social housing tenants across the country. That is why the Opposition regret how long it took the Government to bring it forward, and it is why we want to see it on the statute book as soon as possible. To that end, we want to see the Committee to sit no longer than is absolutely necessary. However, we are determined to see the Bill strengthened in a number of areas, so that standards in social housing markedly and rapidly improve, tenants are able in practice to pursue and secure effective redress, the collective voice of tenants is heard more audibly and they have a greater role in shaping national policy, and we are better able to respond to pressing issues affecting some of those living in social housing, such as serious violence.
We owe it to the bereaved and the survivors of Grenfell, Awaab’s family and all those social tenants currently living in appalling conditions to pass the most robust legislation that the House can possibly deliver. To that end, we have tabled a limited number of amendments in key areas, the intention of which is to persuade the Government to reflect sincerely on how the Bill might be improved still further. Although we intend to work constructively with Ministers to secure the Bill’s speedy passage out of Committee, we expect the Government to give serious consideration to the arguments that we make in respect of those amendments.
Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation. The new clause would provide the Secretary of State with the power to bring properties let at market rents by non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation registered with the regulator into the scope of consumer regulation. It would allow Ministers to do so at a time of their choosing and on an area-by-area basis as required. The amendment would extend the regulator’s fundamental objectives to the care and support services provided by supported exempt and temporary accommodation in relation to properties that already fall within the scope of consumer regulation.
I want to be clear at the outset that these proposals do not seek to extend the scope of the regulatory framework provided for by the Bill to all non-registered supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers in a way that could place unreasonable burdens on the regulator. Rather, they would apply only to those landlords who are registered, or entitled to register, with the regulator as non-profit making providers because they let some properties at below market rents—that is, social housing.
The purpose of these two related proposals is to address an existing loophole that, unless addressed, will remain a problematic gap in the consumer regulatory regime after the Bill has come into force. It is that non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation can let properties at market rents that are eligible for housing benefit support on the basis that “more than minimal” care, support or supervision is being provided, without those properties coming within the scope of consumer regulation.
We know that the regulatory gap is currently being exploited by unscrupulous providers. The three biggest registered providers of non-commissioned exempt accommodation in Birmingham last year, Reliance Social Housing CIC, Ash-Shahada Housing Association Ltd and Concept Housing Association CIC, received £159 million in housing benefit payments for 16,370 market rent properties that fell outside consumer regulation. They were able to operate those properties free from the fear of intervention on consumer standards grounds, because they collectively operate 310 properties—in Reliance’s case, it is just six—at below market rents.
As a result of the regulator being unable to enforce against poor performance by providers in relation to market rent properties that they operate on the basis of consumer standards, the regulator can enforce against bad practice in such cases only on grounds of economic viability. It has done so—for example, it found the large, Birmingham-based Reliance to be non-compliant with the governance and financial viability standard in October last year. However, Opposition Members struggle to understand why the Government have not enabled the regulator to take action against supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers letting units at market rents who fail to meet expected standards, using the tools provided for by the new proactive consumer regulatory regime introduced by the Bill, given that permitting it to do so would simply provide an additional weapon in the regulator’s arsenal when it comes to clamping down on unscrupulous providers.
It is true that clause 8(d) tightens the definition of what constitutes a non-profit making provider. That should help to ensure that some of the most flagrant abuses, such as out-of-balance portfolios, can be clamped down on. However, it will not end all instances of rogue providers gaming the system by letting some properties at below market rents, registering as non-profit making providers on that basis, and then operating far larger numbers of substandard market rent properties outside the scope of consumer regulation. For example, those with more balanced portfolios—presumably even if that were achieved on the basis of a split of 51% of properties let non-profit and 49% for profit—will escape the provisions of clause 8 that I just referred to.
We recognise that the Government support, as we do, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Harrow East. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is on the Committee with us. His Bill will enhance local authority oversight of supported housing and thereby enable local authorities to drive up standards in their areas. However, it does not contain provisions to close the particular loophole that is the focus of amendment 13 and new clause 8. As such, if the Government do not accept our amendments or bring forward their own to tackle the loophole in question, enforcement action on the part of the regulator in these cases will be confined to matters of economic regulation.
One element of our concern about the gap in the proposed consumer regulatory regime that the amendments seek to address is that, once the hon. Gentleman’s Bill has received Royal Assent, rogue providers of supported exempt accommodation will be incentivised to exploit this loophole further, as it will be one of the last remaining loopholes because their operations will be hampered by the range of measures in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill. Using the Bill before us to address the issue of supported exempt and temporary accommodation landlords who are already partially regulated would also close down the loophole more quickly than would be possible by doing so through the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, because it will be some time before that Bill is in Committee, and the detailed regulations required to give it full effect will take some time to be passed.
If the Government were persuaded of the merits of the argument underpinning amendment 13 and new clause 8, they could determine to deal with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation separately. We ultimately decided that the amendments should cover both, because there is good evidence to suggest that the loophole is being increasingly exploited by private temporary accommodation providers, in particular those providing nightly paid temporary accommodation, who often describe themselves as social landlords but who are exempt from consumer regulation in relation to substandard properties they let at market rents at great cost to the taxpayer.
Dealing with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation together is also an attempt to pre-emptively address the scenario in which the Government accept that properties let at market rents by registered non-profit making providers of supported exempt accommodation should be covered by consumer regulation and legislate to that end, but, by setting aside market rent temporary accommodation let by registered non-profit providers, ensure that that becomes an obvious target for rogue providers seeking to escape consumer regulation standards.
I appreciate fully—I expect that the Minister will respond along these lines—that the Government will be reluctant to re-open at this stage of the Bill’s proceedings what and who falls within the ambit of the new consumer regulatory regime, but surely they cannot believe that the Bill as drafted ensures that support services beyond general management that are provided to residents of supported exempt and temporary accommodation will be of acceptable quality, or that non-profit making registered providers can simply ignore consumer standards when it comes to those properties let at market rents eligible for housing benefit support.
The issues that are the subject of these two amendments will need to be addressed if the Government are serious about clamping down on rogue providers who take public money while failing vulnerable people. I hope that the Minister can signal that the Government are minded to act either by accepting the amendments or by bringing forward their own in due course.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Edward. I am incredibly grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, for the constructive way he has embraced this debate, for the Opposition’s broad support for the Bill, and for his commitment to ensuring that the regulator is as robust as it can be. On that point, we have certainly found some early agreement.
As the hon. Member outlined, amendment 13 would extend the remit of the regulator to the care and support provided to residents in supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation, while new clause 8 would extend the remit to those types of accommodation when they are not social housing but are held by a registered provider.
Temporary accommodation and supported housing that meets the definition of social housing is already regulated under the regulator’s standards, and the Care Quality Commission already regulates the provision of personal care in supported housing. The support needs of people in supported housing are wide, varied and often complex compared with those living in general needs accommodation. That is why we are supporting targeted measures in the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, to tackle the issues we are seeing in supported housing. I echo the shadow Minister’s comments; I am very grateful that my hon. Friend is bringing his incredible expertise to the Committee.
While there are many excellent supported housing providers, the Government recognise that there are some rogue supported housing landlords. Let me be completely clear for the record: any abuse of the supported housing system will not be tolerated. The Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill will introduce national standards to be applied to supported housing and to give local authorities new powers to introduce licensing schemes and other enforcement powers.
Temporary accommodation is a key safety net for homeless households in this country. The homelessness code of guidance is clear that, at a minimum, temporary accommodation must be free from all category 1 health hazards, as assessed by the housing health and safety rating system, and it must be suitable for all members of the household. Households have the right to request that the council reviews the suitability of their accommodation.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
On temporary accommodation for homeless families and the code of guidance, who enforces the code? Who knows whether councils are living up to it? Who inspects the accommodation with a third eye to see whether it meets the standards?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow that up with the hon. Member in writing after our sittings today.
Dehenna Davison
As I have just outlined, I will write to the hon. Member to pick up her point following today’s sittings.
The focus of the Regulator of Social Housing is on regulating the standards for registered providers of social housing. I believe that the regulator should remain focused on that vital role, and that greatly expanding its scope to include temporary accommodation could be a significant risk to its expertise. I do not believe that expanding the scope of the regulator into those areas, as proposed by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, is the right way to address them. The regulator should continue to focus on ensuring that registered providers provide safe and high-quality social housing for tenants and on delivering the new consumer regime.
On that basis, I ask the shadow Minister to consider withdrawing his amendments today, but with a commitment from me to follow up with him before Report to see whether anything more can be done.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister for their compliments about me and my Bill. No doubt we will be debating it in one of these Committee Rooms in the not too distant future.
One concern about the position on supported housing is the number of regulators that get involved already. There is almost a confusion of regulation. There is another problem: as we legislators seek to plug gaps, the rogue landlords seek alternative ways of making huge amounts of money. We already know that nearly £1 billion in housing benefit was paid out last year on supported housing in exempt accommodation. Clearly, that was for people who are vulnerable and need help and support. They are from a wide variety of different backgrounds. They might be recovering drug addicts; they might be people who became temporarily homeless or people who have had mental or physical health problems. I could go through a long list of people, but they are vulnerable and need help and support.
However, I have a concern about the proposed amendments. They seek to plug a gap, but are they comprehensive enough? We need more discussion to make sure we have a comprehensive measure that includes everything and makes it clear who the regulator is. Given the interventions by the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, we want to make sure, as a Committee and as legislators, that the laws we introduce are actually enforced.
Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)
The shadow Minister made a very interesting point, and I believe his case has some merit. We have invested in pilots in several areas of the country so that we can explore the case more fully. When the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee looked at the procedure, there was some frustration on the part of Members about the fact that we cannot easily compartmentalise the breadth of people who are supported in the accommodation, so a range of organisations have oversight of the quality of the accommodation provided, supported or otherwise. We need further work to be done through the pilots to make sure that any intervention we make does not have unintended consequences for the providers who provide excellent quality supported accommodation.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Clearly, while the amendments may have good intentions, he makes a good point. We do not want the good providers, who are doing a fantastic job in supporting people to rebuild their lives, to face unnecessary burdens and regulation. It behoves the movers of amendments such as these to ensure that we have covered all those bases.
We must therefore ask: even though the amendments look superficially beneficial, do we have a comprehensive series of measures that plugs all the loopholes and does not burden good providers? Rogue providers are smart; they will look at any gaps in the law and for all opportunities to exploit the system and vulnerable people. The sensible thing would be to withdraw the amendment and have further discussion so that, together, on a cross-party basis, we can make sure that the Bill ends up in the right place.
Siobhain McDonagh
I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. At the moment, we have two things going on. First, we have exempt accommodation, where private property developers access vulnerable people and place them in houses in multiple occupation, cream off large amounts of housing benefit and provide no support to those individuals. They are exploited and left until the police, in many cases, or mental health services come along and take them away. Secondly, neighbourhoods are completely terrorised by people who are vulnerable but unable to control their behaviour, and absolutely nobody regulates that.
I represent a suburban south-west London constituency. Do not get me wrong; properties are not cheap, but they are cheaper than in other bits of London. Companies such as Stef & Philips are exploiting wholesale every loophole and making large amounts of money to bring fear and distress to neighbourhoods and to the residents who occupy those premises.
Last week, a lady who lives in the Pollards Hill area came to my surgery. The 1930s semi-detached house next door to her had been converted into an HMO for five vulnerable tenants. There were no bins to collect the rubbish and no facilities to ensure people could live adequately. She lives next door and has cancer. One of the residents in that home had pulled a knife on her only the day before, and all the other vulnerable tenants in the house had to stay locked in their rooms to avoid that individual. Stef & Philips are making hundreds or thousands of pounds every week from that property.
In Ravensbury, another ward in my constituency, on Malmesbury Road, the same company had a man who was so vulnerable that the police raided the property and had to withdraw because he had a crossbow and they needed firearms support. The whole street was blocked off. That is St Helier estate, for any hon. Members who may know it. It is a beautiful local authority estate built after the first world war to provide homes fit for heroes. The house is beautiful, but not as an HMO for five vulnerable people. People in the street are terrified. Who knows how terrified the other residents in the property are? The company’s balance sheet goes up and up while people go out to work to pay ever-higher tax rates to sustain that company in exploiting people.
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making excellent points. That is the human impact of the lack of regulation and enforcement on rogue providers that are making millions out of very vulnerable people. Their impact is felt not only by the individuals who are being harmed, but by entire communities. Does she agree that although we do not want regulation for regulation’s sake, we need not just regulation but enforcement for those who are getting away with this scot-free right now? We do not just need legislation; we need the ability to enforce and act.
Siobhain McDonagh
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. If there is no regulation, this will just grow and grow. As mortgage interest rates go up and business for buy-to-let landlords becomes less profitable, more people are going to look at providing this style of housing, because they can exploit the housing benefit system. If that is not happening in the constituencies of all the hon. Members of this Bill Committee, it will be coming to them soon.
Eddie Hughes
The point I am about to make is non-political, given that I am going to use the example of Labour-led Birmingham Council. That council did pilot work, and its scrutiny committee, which was chaired by a Labour member, subsequently published a report. It was able to identify a number of improvements that it could make within the existing legislation. I fully appreciate that legal challenge is an option for landlords who have their claims turned down. However, the council was able to reduce the number of people coming through the pipeline to provide this type of accommodation, and it was able to improve the quality of that accommodation. There is some room for councils who are prepared to focus on this, to improve outcomes for local people within the framework of the existing legislation.
Siobhain McDonagh
I turn to Aves housing association, which was run by a man who was exposed by the BBC for running a former supposed housing association that is in fact a commercial enterprise. It specialises in parts of Pollards Hill and Longthornton in my constituency, which neighbour Croydon, and it routinely takes very vulnerable people to live in houses that are simply not big enough for conversion. It accesses people’s universal credit accounts and takes their money. When the housing benefit department at Merton Council discovered that, it decided not to pay housing benefit to Aves residents. That might seem sensible to most Committee Members. However, that then meant that 92 vulnerable people were not having their rent paid, so were vulnerable to eviction—at which point, Merton Council’s housing department and adult social services departments would have collapsed. Local authorities are in a bind. Do they take notice of what is going on—in which case, they get responsibilities they cannot meet—or do they turn a blind eye because, in the end, that is the only way they can manage?
Bob Blackman
The hon. Member is making a very clear case about the problems in her constituency. One problem that local authorities face is that they have no powers to prevent such properties from being turned over in this way. Does she agree that one issue we have to deal with, which is not addressed in this amendment, is that local authorities need powers? Those powers might be around planning permission to do with HMOs and HMO regulation, to control the type of housing that she quite rightly describes as being a challenge in her area; or they might be over a licensing system to make sure that the operators of supported housing projects are fit and proper persons who will not exploit their position.
Further, data-sharing should be spread across the country. These rogues might well jump from Merton to Croydon to somewhere else, because they know that the local authority does not know about them. However, that is not within the scope of the amendment, although it is in the scope of my Bill, which I will be debating later. Although we would all agree that the issues that the hon. Member has raised are a scandal and need to be addressed, we must be clear that that is not within the scope of the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh
I believe that the regulator should have power to look at this area of housing. It is all very well for councils to get more powers, and I would be the first to agree with that, but many councils already have a lot of powers that they cannot use because they cannot afford to. They do not have access to social housing units. They do not have access to the level of environmental health officers that they need. They do not have access to the number of planning officers they need in the area of planning enforcement.
Sarah Owen
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. The pilot work that the hon. Member for Harrow East just spoke about is fantastic. We will take whatever we can from that and learn, but the point is that the councils and authorities that did that work had to have extra resources to use their existing powers. This is not just about legislating and enabling local authorities to have more powers; it is also about them having the funds and resources to use those powers.
Siobhain McDonagh
Absolutely, and I know the hon. Member for Harrow East will be aware of how few London councils ever prosecute anybody under their current powers. It is about regulation, but it is also about local authorities being able to use their powers. In the light of the recent Budget, local authorities’ powers will become even less well used if their finances continue to be squeezed.
Let us go back to Aves in Pollards Hill and Longthornton. I met the regulator and spoke about Aves and my concern about the exploitation of tenants. The regulator said to me, “We completely agree with you, but there is nothing we can do. We do not have the power to do anything.” Either we give the regulator the powers and do something about it, or we go on talking about it in a well-meaning way while the problem exponentially grows. I, for one, want to see some action rather than none.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I think this is an important Bill. Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation when provided by providers that are the subject of other parts of the Bill. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made a very good case.
The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden made a passionate speech, and I think we can all relate to what she was saying, because we all have examples in our constituency of providers who sound very legitimate and credible, but after they are looked into, it turns out that they are not. They are fly-by-nights who are just taking the opportunity provided by the loophole in regulations. We can all cite examples of HMOs that have been passed by councils because the councils do not have the powers to stop them. The impact on neighbourhoods is quite dire, and it really does destroy local communities.
While I appreciate the intentions behind the Opposition’s amendments, I think the better place to close the gaps in regulation would be in the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. This measure is obviously needed, but I think this Bill is the wrong place for it. I hope to speak later about some of the specific issues in my constituency and the importance of regulating the providers and ensuring the provisions of the Bill are met, because they are so needed.
Matthew Pennycook
That was an incredibly informed and helpful debate. I just want to say at the outset that we fully appreciate how complex an area of law and regulation this is. I have done enough of these Committees to know that the Minister is not going to simply stand up and accept the amendments we have cobbled together just on the basis of my speech, however good it might have been.
I will try to respond to the points made, which I take in the constructive spirit they were offered in. I do not think many of the points made get to the heart of what the amendments are driving at. I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow East: there is a plethora of regulators in housing and planning generally, and I am concerned that we are creating overlap and confusion in various ways. I will come to how that might be true in relation to the ombudsman and the regulator when we discuss clause 5, but that is absolutely a point.
The Minister made the point well: the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Harrow East, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, includes a range of targeted measures to address the scandal—we all agree it is a scandal—of rogue providers of exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation in many cases. However, as I made clear, that Bill does not address this gap. The hon. Member for Erewash said that if it is not covered by these amendments, it can be done via the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, but it is not in that Bill. Perhaps it will end up in that Bill after Committee stage, in which case we will be entirely happy with that being a vehicle for it rather than this Bill, but it needs to be addressed.
Dehenna Davison
Absolutely, we will take this away. I would be grateful for the expertise of all on the Committee, including the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, who made an incredibly passionate case. Let us have a roundtable discussion about how best we can take this forward following Committee.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 2—Regulator duty to report on safety defects—
‘(1) In fulfilling its consumer regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must report to the Secretary of State on actions taken by registered providers to remediate unsafe external wall systems and other historic fire safety defects in social housing.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required to sufficiently address identified issues.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, the regulator would be required to report to the government on the progress of building safety remediation.
New clause 3—Regulator duty to support provision of social housing—
‘(1) In fulfilling its economic regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must–
(a) within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, and
(b) at intervals of no more than three years thereafter
provide a report to the Secretary of State on whether the supply of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations relating to how to ensure that the provision of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing sufficient to meet reasonable demands the regulator would be required to report to the government on adequacy of social housing supply.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 1 relates to the fundamental objectives of the Regulator of Social Housing and adds safety and energy efficiency of tenants’ accommodation and transparency. New clauses 2 and 3 seek to take that further and expand the role of the regulator into new areas.
New clause 2 relates to monitoring the remediation of unsafe cladding and other fire safety defects in the social housing sector. I want to make clear from the outset that nothing is more important to this Government than making sure people are safe in their homes. The tragic, horrendous case of Awaab Ishak, which we are all unfortunately now familiar with, has highlighted the crucial role of registered providers of social housing in making sure that happens.
The Bill sits alongside other key reforms that we have introduced in response to the Grenfell Tower fire, including the Building Safety Act 2022 and the Fire Safety Act 2021. New clause 2 is incredibly well intentioned, given what it seeks to achieve, but the Bill is not the correct vehicle for it. A duty should be placed on the Regulator of Social Housing to undertake such monitoring. The regulator is not a specialist fire or building safety body. The proposed new clause would be a significant expansion of the regulator’s remit. Currently, the regulator does not have the expertise to fulfil that function effectively.
The question of who should undertake that kind of role is, however, an important one for Government. The Department is evaluating options on how best to monitor and report on the progress made in remediating unsafe cladding and other fire-safety defects. It is important that the work is done at pace, but thoroughly. I understand that hon. Members will be keen to study its outcomes and implications for future policy, but I must reiterate that it would be improper to pre-empt it while it is ongoing by allocating responsibility for that highly important function without the benefit of fully understanding the options. We need to ensure that that work is undertaken by those with the correct skills, expertise and capacity. My concern with new clause 2, therefore, is that it would make for a hasty decision that might mean we do not achieve the desired outcomes in the optimal way.
I turn to new clause 3. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is right to draw attention to the importance of increasing the supply of social housing. In the levelling-up White Paper, we made it clear that we want to
“increase the amount of social housing available over time to provide the most affordable housing to those who need it.”
Our £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will play an important role in achieving that aim, as will the measures we have taken to support increased council house building.
For its part, the regulator has an objective to support the provision of sufficient social housing. It discharges that role through its work to ensure that private registered providers are financially viable, efficient and well governed. In turn, that helps providers to obtain funding to enable them to deliver more social housing. However, I do not agree that we should make the regulator responsible for assessing the adequacy of social housing provision in England or, indeed, in Wales. I am concerned that such an additional role could divert resources away from the activities that should be the focus for the regulator, which is setting standards for social housing so that landlords are clear about expectations on them to deliver quality of housing, to monitor compliance with those standards and, where necessary, to undertake relevant enforcement action.
Organisations outside Government often publish their own analysis of the level of need for social housing. There are a number of different approaches to assess that, and not necessarily a single right answer. I am therefore not convinced that the regulator stepping in to provide its own assessment is the right approach. It should focus on the task at hand and on standards, quality and enforcement. On that basis we would not want to accept new clauses 2 and 3.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for her explanation of the clause and for the response to the two new clauses tabled by the Opposition. As the Minister has made clear, with a view to providing for a stronger and more proactive consumer regulatory regime, the clause expands the regulator’s fundamental objectives as set out in the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to include those of safety, transparency and—following the well-deserved success of Baroness Hayman’s amendment in the other place on standards relating to energy demand—energy efficiency.
My response to the case that the Minister made against new clauses 2 and 3 has, thankfully, pre-empted a number of the points she has just made. New clause 2 seeks to ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well managed and of appropriate quality, under proposed new subsection (3)(a) of the amended 2008 Act the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the progress of building safety remediation in the social housing sector.
According to the Department’s own figures, every one of the 160 social sector buildings identified as having unsafe aluminium composite material—ACM—cladding, similar to that which covered Grenfell Tower, have been remediated through the social sector ACM cladding remediation fund. When it comes to buildings in the social sector with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, we know that, as of 31 October, 251 have applied for Government funding for remediation. Alarmingly, as things stand, not a single one of those 251 buildings has been remediated.
Perhaps more worryingly, we have no estimate of the total number of social sector buildings with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, because social landlords can apply for Government funding only if the costs of remediation are unaffordable or if there is a threat to their financial viability. We have no idea whatsoever how many social sector buildings have other non-cladding building safety defects.
There is a wider debate to be had outside this Committee about social landlords’ restricted access to funding for non-ACM remediation work, given the impact that has on social tenants, whose rent payments are contributing to the costs of the works required, and on providers in terms of upgrade and maintenance works, services provided such as welfare advice and the supply of new social homes.
However, all new clause 2 seeks to achieve is to make the regulator—which, as a result of the Bill will now have to perform its functions with a view to supporting the provision of social housing that is safe—report to the Secretary of State on the progress of remediating unsafe external wall systems and other historical fire safety defects in social housing, and provides it with the opportunity to make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required.
Speaking for the Government in the other place in response to a similar amendment in the name of Baroness Pinnock, Baroness Scott of Bybrook argued, as the Minister just has, that the type of monitoring sought by new clause 2 would not be “appropriate” for the regulator to undertake because
“it is not a specialist health and safety body.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 September 2022; Vol. 824, c. 114.]
I am afraid that we find that argument wholly unconvincing.
New clause 2 does not seek to impose a duty on the regulator to carry out inspections of social sector buildings that are either potentially unsafe or identified as unsafe and in need of remediation or to physically monitor the progress of remediation works. As such, it does not require the regulator to possess the relevant professional skills, expertise and capacity necessary for assessments of that nature. All it would require is that the regulator be responsible for reporting to the Government on the progress of remediation in respect of social sector buildings—on the overall number of such buildings identified as having defects and the progress of whether they have started and completed remediation.
Given that the regulator already collects data from registered providers to inform its regulation of standards, and that the Bill ensures that one of the regulator’s new fundamental objectives will be the safety of buildings, we believe it is entirely reasonable and appropriate to task it with reporting to the Government along these lines.
As the Minister made clear, the Government have been at pains over recent months to stress they are examining options for monitoring and reporting remediation progress in future. Yet, as we consider the Bill today, neither the Department nor the new Building Safety Regulator is providing accurate data with regard to the scale of the building safety challenge in the social housing sector, or progress toward meeting it; no firm proposals have been brought forward by the Government to address that gap; and we have no guarantees that appropriate measures will be forthcoming any time soon, although I take at face value what the Minister has just said.
The Bill rightly ensures that the provision of safe, high-quality social housing will be integral to the function of the regulator’s role. There can be no more important task in respect of social housing—I think we are agreed on this point—than to ensure that buildings that are either covered in combustible material or riddled with other non-cladding safety defects are made safe. New clause 2 would ensure the regulator monitors progress to that end and reports to Government. I urge the Minister to rethink. If the Government are not minded to amend the Bill as new clause 2 seeks, I urge them to bring forward other proposals for monitoring this important element of the remediation drive in the near future.
I turn to new clause 3. In a similar way to how new clause 2 seeks to place additional requirements on the regulator in relation to its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, new clause 3 seeks to ensure that, in meeting its fundamental objective under the 2008 Act to support the provision of social housing that is sufficient to meet reasonable demands, the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the adequacy of social housing supply.
The problem to which this new clause relates is well known. While more people than ever are struggling to afford a secure place to live, nowhere near enough social homes are being built. Almost 1.2 million households in England are now languishing on a housing waiting list. The Green Paper that foreshadowed the Bill stated:
“Social housing remains central to our supply ambitions.”
Despite that, the Government are doing nowhere near enough to deliver the volume of social homes our country needs.
Not only are the Government failing to build the volume of social homes that we need, but by means of reduced grant funding, the introduction of the so-called affordable rent tenure, increased right-to-buy discounts and numerous other policy interventions, we would argue that they have actively engineered the decline of social housing over the past 12 years. The result is that not only were fewer than 6,000 social homes constructed last year but over 21,000 were sold or demolished—a net loss of 15,000 desperately needed genuinely affordable homes.
Bob Blackman
I agree with the shadow Minister that the provision of affordable social housing in this country is far too low. It has been far too low for far too long. That has been the case not just under this Government, but under successive Governments for more than 30 years.
The shadow Minister has put forward his case, and he quoted one report claiming that 145,000 units are required per year. The Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee and I have always taken the view that 90,000 units per year would be required just to get us back to where we should be. From that perspective, it is clear that there needs to be more investment in affordable social housing, and we need to get to a point where people have a place they can call home, a rent that they can afford, and the option to buy when their circumstances allow.
The new clauses seem to put extra burdens on the regulator, for example by requiring them to report on the amount of social housing there should be in this country. I do not think that is an appropriate role for the regulator. It is right that organisations, such as those the shadow Minister quoted—Shelter, Crisis, CIH and others—should be reporting and commenting to Government, but I do not think it is the role of the regulator to report to Government.
I think the role of the regulator is quite clearly to report on the condition of social housing. I hope as we go through the Bill—and I will challenge the Secretary of State on this particular issue—we will see some amendments that strengthen the role of the regulator to ensure that social housing providers are performing as they should be. That means providing a high-quality standard of accommodation. We have heard about what has happened in Rochdale, but the issue of the condition of property is not confined to Rochdale. It goes up and down the country.
We need to see dramatic improvements in the provision of not only the quantity of social housing, but the conditions within those units. It is a sheer scandal in this country that we are paying huge salaries to social housing providers who are pocketing the money while providing a very poor service for their tenants. We need to call them to account. I believe that comes through the role of the regulator. That is the way it should be. I hope we can see some strengthening of the Bill on that point through Government amendments, at least when we get to Report stage.
On safety defects, there is clearly an issue about data, performance and the funding of removing unsafe cladding and dealing with fire safety defects. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will know that I have been on this case for quite some time—since before Grenfell. One of the key issues here is about whether the regulator should be reporting on it, but frankly I think the regulator should be enforcing it. They should be making sure the providers actually do their job of providing safe accommodation for people.
While I recognise that the new clauses are well-intentioned, I do not think they hit the nub of where we need to be going. I hope the Government will come forward with some new clauses to strengthen the Bill when we get to Report stage, particularly in light of the scandal in Rochdale and the conditions people are facing up and down the country.
Siobhain McDonagh
Thank you, Sir Edward, for your generosity in calling me. I realise I registered quite late that I wanted to speak.
Why are we sitting here in this Bill Committee today? We are sitting here because, under the coalition Government’s bonfire of the quangos, we set fire to the housing inspectorate and the Audit Commission in the belief that no regulation of damp or mould growth in properties was required, that all the adjudicator had to do was look at the financial structure of housing associations, and that that would be enough. What a terrible error that has been.
In my constituency, the largest social housing provider is Clarion Housing Association. After an ITV news programme about some of its standards, it was referred to the regulator. The regulator’s decision was that it could not investigate because there was not a systemic problem. That is where we have got to. How many of us were distressed by Awaab Ishak’s death? How many of us know that we have plenty of social housing units in our constituencies with the same damp and mould growth problems? At the moment we have no form of regulation that can tackle that.
The adjudicator does not go out and look at properties or inspect procedures. The adjudicator is interested in the financial structures. I would never argue that we should not look at the financial viability of a housing association, but I also want to know what it does when it has problems of damp and mould growth. I want to know that a Government inspector goes out and sample-tests and looks at properties.
We would never accept an Ofsted that did not inspect schools or a Care Quality Commission that did not go in and inspect hospitals, care homes or local authority social services, but we have accepted that the regulator has no responsibility for going into social housing properties and inspecting their conditions.
When we look at reducing regulation, we must remember Awaab Ishak, and remember that we do not have a regulator in our country that would do anything about that.
Dehenna Davison
I will be brief and just say that I recognise the arguments made by the shadow Minister, but I hope he recognises the arguments that I made in my opening statement. I have made a commitment to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East that before Report we will sit down to discuss the issues further and make sure the regulator has the teeth it really needs.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Advisory panel
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 14, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—
“(2A) The Panel may provide information and advice to the Secretary of State about, or on matters connected with, the regulator’s functions and wider issues affecting the regulation of social housing (whether or not it is requested to do so by either the regulator or the Secretary of State).”
This amendment would enable the Panel to provide information and advice and to proactively raise issues affecting social housing regulation more generally directly to the Secretary of State.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 15, in clause 2, page 2, line 17, at end insert—
“(8) The Panel must be chaired by a tenant of social housing.
(9) The Chair is responsible for setting Panel meeting agendas.
(10) The majority of persons appointed to the panel must be tenants of social housing.”
This amendment would ensure that tenant representation on the advisory panel is mandatory and that tenants are able to influence effectively what information and advice is presented to the regulator in respect of issues affecting social housing regulation.
Matthew Pennycook
For all its technical complexity, the Bill is ultimately about those who live in social housing and overhauling regulation to ensure that they are treated fairly by landlords who are well run, responsive, transparent and accountable. In considering the detail of the Bill, we must never forget that the impetus for it was the deaths of 72 men, women and children in the early hours of 14 June 2017. Those 72 human lives were ended in an inferno fuelled by the highly combustible cladding system installed on the outside of the tower block in which they lived, despite the fact that tenants had repeatedly sounded the alarm about the building’s safety defects and the fact that warnings were going unheeded.
I have met and spoken to Grenfell United, as I assume the Minister and many other Members have. I once again pay tribute to them and the wider Grenfell community. I know that what the survivors and the bereaved are determined to achieve is not only justice, but lasting change in how social housing is regulated and the power that tenants themselves can exercise. We firmly believe that the empowerment of tenants must be at the heart of the Bill, and we believe that a key test of its robustness is whether it establishes mechanisms that will enable tenants to influence in practice the regulator’s approach to regulating standards; to shape any future changes to regulatory standards and codes of practice; and to proactively raise wider issues affecting social housing regulation and policy, not just with the regulator but with Ministers.
The Government ostensibly agree that tenants are at the heart of the Bill, and Ministers have repeatedly assured us that one of its primary objectives is to give social housing tenants a voice and ensure that it is listened to. Yet when it comes to providing ways in which tenant representatives can exert a measure of control over the work of the regulator, shape the future direction of the regulatory arrangements that the Bill establishes and proactively influence national regulation and policy so as to shape the services that tenants receive from their landlords, we feel that the Bill is somewhat lacking in ambition.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for making his case for amendments 14 and 15. Amendment 14 seeks to enable the advisory panel to provide information and advice and to raise issues affecting social housing regulation directly with the Secretary of State. The social housing White Paper made it clear that the purpose of the advisory panel was to provide independent and unbiased advice specific to the regulator on matters connected to regulation. Clearly, the views of tenants are central to that objective.
As the hon. Gentleman outlined, in parallel we also established the social housing quality resident panel, which will provide an opportunity for us to hear from tenants. The aim of the resident panel is to enable tenants to share their views directly with Government and Ministers on their approach to improving the quality of social housing, and on whether the Government’s interventions will deliver the changes that they want to see.
The resident panel is made up of 250 social housing residents from across the country and from diverse backgrounds. They met for the first time last week on 26 November, and will meet approximately monthly over the coming year, with opportunities for the agenda to be shaped by panel members. At that meeting, residents told the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), that the most important issues to them were how repairs are dealt with, how landlords are held to account and how complaints are handled by their landlords and the housing ombudsman. The Department’s resident panel and the regulated advisory panel have a specific role and remit to ensure that tenants’ views are properly represented to both Ministers and the regulator.
Amendment 15 seeks to require a social housing tenant to chair the advisory panel and have responsibility for setting the agenda that the panel considers. It also seeks to ensure that social housing tenants comprise the majority of panel members. We share the notion that it is vital that tenants’ voices are heard, but it is important that the advisory panel considers the full range of regulatory issues that the regulator has to tackle. That means that we need to allow a diverse collection of voices to share their knowledge and opinions with the regulator.
Consumer matters are rightly at the forefront of the Bill but, equally, working to resolve some of the economic issues should not be diminished. Legislating for a tenant to chair and set the agenda and requiring the majority of the panel members to be tenants would not support what we are trying to achieve with the advisory panel. I am concerned that being too prescriptive in legislation about how the advisory panel must operate may prevent the panel from having the flexibility to decide how it best operates. In practice, I expect that all members of the advisory panel, along with the regulator, will shape how it works and what it considers.
We are committed to ensuring that tenants can effectively engage with the Department and the regulator, and that tenant voices are at the heart of social housing regulation and policy, but we do not feel that amendments 14 and 15 are necessary to achieve that so I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw them.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that helpful response, and I take on board the concerns she raised about the amendments.
I am slightly concerned about the lack of what we would consider to be true tenant empowerment. The quality resident panel is important, but it only lasts a year, so how will we get ongoing tenant engagement with the work of the regulator to inform how it operates, to shape future regulation, which is part of its remit, and to raise future issues of concern to tenants nationally, in terms of social housing regulation and policy? We do not think the Bill allows for that, and in all honesty I cannot understand the Government’s objection to allowing the advisory panel to notify Ministers directly, rather than the regulator, in certain rare circumstances. As the Minister said, the panel is at present constituted by the regulator, which appoints its membership, and it can only provide views directly to the regulator. We think there are some circumstances in which it may need to do otherwise. I hope the Minister takes away those points.
Eddie Hughes
Although there might be some deliberation about this mechanism, there are several mechanisms through which resident organisations are able to engage with Ministers and the regulator. I am delighted to see representatives of Grenfell United in the Public Gallery. There is a regular opportunity to meet Ministers, although it is not prescriptive and perhaps not as frequent as many would like, but the Government are certainly determined to build on it.
Matthew Pennycook
We recognise that Ministers meet tenants and tenant representatives frequently. My concern is that if tenants on the advisory panel have an issue that they feel is sufficiently serious that they need to bring it to the attention of Ministers, rather than the regulator, they should not have to rely on attempting to get a meeting with Ministers. There should be a mechanism through which they can put serious issues on the desk of the Secretary of State or the Minister if they feel that they, as well as the regulator, need to know about them. That is the point we are trying to address with amendment 14.
On amendment 15, I understand the Minister’s concerns about being too prescriptive, but I urge the Government to go away and think again about the membership of the advisory panel. I appreciate fully the need to have a diverse panel, but as I read clause 2(4), there is nothing on the face of the Bill to prevent the Government from putting one tenant or tenant representative on the panel and leaving it at that. There is no minimum quota for tenants, and we want tenant voices to be properly represented.
Bob Blackman
The shadow Minister is making a good point. We want to empower tenants, but his proposal could have an unintended consequence. Supposing tenant representatives on the board cannot agree among themselves who will be the chair, the panel could meet, but obviously that would be a difficult situation. There may potentially be social tenants from various parts of the country, representing different organisations. It is therefore not appropriate to prescribe a chair on the face of the Bill; that would defeat the objective. It might well be that we could find some suitable wording about the number of representatives, but I do not think we should force the panel to have a particular individual or representative as the chair.
Matthew Pennycook
The point about obvious issues around tenant representation and selection is well made, although those issues exist for the quality residents panel and the 250 members it selects. They have existed every time we have tried to create a body that gives voice to residents, so I do not think they are insurmountable. I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman thinks a minimum level of tenant representation on the panel is a good thing, and I urge the Government to think again about that.
We ultimately want to achieve tenant empowerment on the advisory panel so that tenants can be confident that, when the advisory panel gives information and advice to the regulator about the new system of regulatory standards, its voice is properly heard and it can bring issues to the attention of Ministers if required. I hope the Government will take away the points we have made about the amendments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 2 makes it a requirement that the regulator will engage with a wide range of stakeholders, including tenants and landlords. It also sets out expectations about who should be represented on that panel. It is not just about the regulator asking a group of people for views once it has already made up its mind about what it wants to do. The panel is designed to be used to test and shape the regulator’s thinking. For example, we expect the regulator to engage the panel on the design and implementation of new consumer standards. The clause also empowers the panel to raise issues directly with the regulator that its members consider important. I hope the Committee will support the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Power to charge fees
Dehenna Davison
I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 4, page 3, line 40, leave out “follows” and insert
“set out in subsections (2) to (6)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 2.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 2.
Clause stand part.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 4 and Government amendments 1 and 2 deal with the regulator’s fee-charging powers. As we heard from a number of hon. Members on Second Reading, the Regulator of Social Housing must be provided with the necessary funding to enable it to deliver the outcomes the Bill is designed to achieve.
Once the new consumer regime is implemented, the regulator will see substantial growth in its regulatory activity, which means its costs will increase significantly. It is Government policy to maximise the recovery of costs of arm’s length bodies, so clause 4 will refine the existing fee-charging power to allow for the cost of some additional functions to be recovered, and to charge fees that cover costs of activities that may not be connected to the specific fee payer, such as the cost of investigation and enforcement. Any significant changes to the design of the regime will be consulted upon and require ministerial approval.
Government amendments 1 and 2 also address the regulator’s fee-charging powers. The amendments remove specific provision allowing the regulator to charge following the completion of inspections, if authorised by the Secretary of State by order. The existence of that special provision relating to fees for inspections is no longer necessary given the changes we are making to the regulator’s general power to charge fees. That power will now allow it to cover the cost of inspections in its fees for initial and continued registration.
Leaving the provision in legislation erroneously risks causing confusion and casting doubt on the regulator’s ability to set fees to cover inspections as part of its general fee-setting power. As such, the change serves to ensure that there is greater clarity and consistency in this legislation.
Clause 4 establishes the parameters to the regulator’s fee-charging powers and makes clear that it can charge the sector for costs that may be unconnected to the specific fee payer. Government amendments 1 and 2 support clause 4 by delivering a technical change that will ensure there is no confusion over the powers available to the regulator to deliver maximum cost recovery. On that basis, I commend the clause to the Committee and beg to move the amendments.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that explanation of Government amendments 1 and 2. As she makes clear, clause 4 amends section 117 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to clarify the extent of the regulator’s fee-charging powers. New subsection (4A) adds to the 2008 Act and makes it clear that the regulator has the power to recover the cost of activities it does not currently charge social housing providers for.
If I understood the Minister correctly, Government amendment 2 revises section 202 of the 2008 Act because the powers in new subsection (4A) are sufficiently broad to cover charging providers fees for inspections. In short, as I hope she agrees, this is just a tidying-up exercise, the rationale for which is that the power is being omitted from section 202, concerning inspections only, because it more properly fits within section 117, concerning fees generally, to ensure that references to fee charging are all in one place in the 2008 Act. If that is the case, and amendment 2 in no way prevents the regulator from charging fees for inspections, we take no issue with it, because it is important that the regulator is able to charge fees to cover the significant costs involved in overseeing the comprehensive and rigorous Ofsted-style inspections regime that the Bill introduces.
The amendment raises wider issues relating to the resourcing of the regulator. Since the Bill’s publication, we have consistently expressed concern about the very real risk that the regulator will struggle to discharge its new functions and that it will not be adequately resourced to perform its enhanced role, in particular in relation to inspections. Prior to the Bill’s publication there were already concerns, expressed by the Select Committee and others, as to whether the regulator had the resourcing, skills and capacity to continue to regulate economic standards adequately, given the complex financial and corporate structures proliferating in the sector.
The new consumer regulatory regime will impose significant burdens on the regulator. The Minister stated on Second Reading that the Government are
“firmly committed to ensuring that the regulator has the resources that it needs not only to deliver the new consumer regulation regime but to ensure that it continues to regulate its economic objectives effectively.”—[Official Report, 7 November 2022; Vol. 722, c. 83.]
She also suggested that the Government were potentially minded to introduce changes to the fee regime to ensure that the regulator is funded appropriately. We accept that the Government have made limited additional funding available this financial year to support the new regime, but we are concerned that there may still be a resourcing challenge for the regulator. I would welcome any further assurances from the Minister that the regulator will have all the resources it needs to discharge the enhanced functions that the Bill requires of it.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising the question of resourcing. We touched on this on Second Reading, as he highlighted. He is right that in this financial year we are providing £4.8 million to aid the regulator in its vital work, but this is why it is so important that we get the fee charging regime right—to ensure that the regulator is properly resourced. As we have discussed today, on Second Reading and in the other place, the regulator needs the teeth to be able to do its job, and a huge part of that is resourcing. He is right that, effectively, we are tidying the legislation up to make it a bit neater and ensure further clarity, so I hope he will support these amendments.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Amendment made: 2, in clause 4, page 4, line 16, at end insert—
‘(7) In section 202 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (inspections: supplemental) omit subsections (4) to (7).’—(Dehenna Davison.)
This amendment repeals the provisions of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 which provide specific powers to enable the regulator to charge registered providers of social housing fees for inspections.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5
Relationship between regulator and housing ombudsman
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
I will be brief, but there is an issue that we want to highlight in relation to clause 5, which is about the relationship between the regulator and housing ombudsman. Clause 5 amends the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 and the Housing Act 1996 to add measures on the relationship between the two bodies, so that they can exchange information quickly and effectively to provide better protection for tenants, all of which is entirely to the good and uncontroversial. However, consideration of the clause provides me with an opportunity to seek clarification from the Minister about the precise role of each body in the reformed regulatory regime that the Bill establishes.
Taken at face value, the role of each body is clearly delineated: the regulator regulates registered providers in England, while the housing ombudsman seeks to resolve complaints from individual residents about their registered provider. The regulator operates on a top-down basis, and the housing ombudsman operates on a bottom-up basis. However, when one considers how the reformed regulatory regime will operate in practice, things start to appear somewhat more complicated.
First, if my reading of the Bill is correct, the regulator appears to be able to intervene in individual complaints. Clause 31, for example, enables the regulator to arrange for an authorised person to take emergency remedial action in respect of individual premises following completion of a survey. Presumably, it is therefore necessary for the regulator to receive a complaint from a tenant who fears they are at risk of an imminent serious health and safety risk. Otherwise, how could the regulator order the necessary survey of a given premises? It may be that that is not the case, and it will be for the ombudsman to refer an individual complaint to the regulator to allow them to make use of the provisions in clause 31; if that is the case, it is not clear from the Bill.
Secondly, following revisions to the housing ombudsman scheme enacted in September 2020, the ombudsman has a responsibility to publish a complaint handling code, enjoys a new power to issue complaint handling failure orders that can relate to a landlord’s overall complaint-handling policy and, crucially, has the ability to investigate beyond an initial complaint to establish whether evidence might indicate a systemic failing by a registered provider. It may be that the ombudsman can address such systemic failings on the part of registered providers on the basis of suggested changes to their policies only with the regulator responsible for exploring whether changes to their systems are necessary, but again that is not immediately clear in the Bill.
Eddie Hughes
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but it is based on the premise that these bodies operate in a completely siloed fashion. The relationship between them is a fluid one; they speak regularly and consider complaints and points that have been raised, which come to them from either direction. They work in a collaborative fashion and are then able to identify who should best proceed with a particular case. Obviously, it is governed by a memorandum of understanding, but it is a much more fluid and collaborative arrangement than that.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman, and I fully understand his point. I met with senior staff from the housing ombudsman yesterday, and we were talking precisely about the ways in which the respective roles operate and how they could be clarified. What these examples seek to illustrate is that there is still an obvious risk of overlap and duplication of roles in respect of these two bodies. One could argue, as the hon. Gentleman just has, that those issues can be resolved by means of updating the non-statutory memorandum of understanding that already sets out the functions of both organisations and how they work together, but that throws up two distinct issues in and of itself.
First, is it appropriate for us to leave these matters to the two bodies themselves to resolve, rather than clarifying on the face of the Bill the precise role of each body in the new regulatory regime, so as to avoid the duplication of functions and potential gaps in coverage—even if only in the short term, before they update that memorandum of understanding to reflect the new regulatory system of proactive consumer regulation?
Secondly, I am sure that hon. Members have been contacted by tenants who are aware that the Bill is progressing through the House. The expectations around the Bill are such that, after it receives Royal Assent, tenants who feel that they have not secured appropriate redress by means of a standard complaint to their landlord and believe that their grievance might be systemic in nature will understandably be uncertain about whether they should approach the ombudsman or the regulator with their complaint. I appreciate that the Department is alive to the risk, has produced guidance in the form of a fact sheet and is apparently delivering a communications campaign to tenants so that they know where to go and are well informed but, without greater clarity prior to Royal Assent about the precise roles of each body in the regime established by the Bill, I fear that neither will be sufficient to prevent a large degree of confusion. When debating this matter in the other place, Baroness Scott of Bybrook conceded that fears about confusion of the kind that I alluded to are legitimate, and that greater clarity is required as a result; yet, despite her promise to take the matter back to the Department, the Government are not amending the Bill to provide greater clarity or committing to take any further concrete steps—that I am aware of, at least—to ensure that confusion will be avoided.
As Shelter and others have argued, it is essential that the roles of the regulator and the housing ombudsman are clearly defined, that tenants and tenant groups understand the appropriate way to make complaints and that any complaints process or system is easy to use, accessible and effective. I would be grateful if the Minister provided greater clarity today and, if not today, in writing. I hope that, in general terms, she will assure me that the issues that I have highlighted will be both considered and acted on by the Department before the Bill receives Royal Assent.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising his concerns and giving me the opportunity to provide some clarity. We will take it from the experience of one particular tenant, if we may. If a tenant has a complaint, they should first go to their landlord but, if that complaint cannot be resolved between tenants and the landlord, it can be escalated to the housing ombudsman to investigate individual complaints from tenants. If the ombudsman’s investigation finds instances of maladministration on the part of the landlord, the ombudsman can issue orders to that landlord to put things right for the complainant. That can include requiring the landlord to pay compensation to the complainant or to undertake repairs.
If an investigation raises a potential breach of a regulatory standard or there is evidence of systemic failure by the landlord, the ombudsman can refer the matter to the regulator. In situations where the regulator has concerns that the provider is failing to maintain the premises in accordance with the regulatory standards, it can conduct a survey and, following the implementation of this Bill, arrange for emergency repairs to remediate the issue in cases where there is a risk of serious harm to tenants that is not being addressed by the landlord.
Matthew Pennycook
That is useful clarification. If I have correctly understood what the Minister is saying, emergency remedial action under clause 31 of the Bill stems, in the first instance, from a referral from the ombudsman. Let us think about that process in detail. To get to the ombudsman, a tenant would have to exhaust all stages of their resident provider’s internal complaints process, which is three stages in most cases. It takes about a year to get through it. They would then have to go to the ombudsman, who has a huge backlog. Clause 31 is about emergency remedial action that poses an imminent threat to health and safety. I urge the Government to think again about how, in particular, clause 31 operates because tenants will need to give notice to the regulator about specific clause 31 failures far quicker than the process she has just described.
Siobhain McDonagh
The situation gets even more complicated when a tenant exasperatedly says, “I want to go to a lawyer” and then the whole thing closes down.
Matthew Pennycook
We are testing the patience of Sir Edward and the rules, but the point my hon. Friend highlights is a genuine one about the complication of legal matters and whether tenants abandon complaints at whatever point, which I hope adds to the weight of the point that I have just made. It is not immediately clear, and we have to be clear with, most importantly, tenants once this Bill is in force about where they go and how they can seek redress under the provisions of the Bill as quickly as they need to. As I said, in the case of clause 31, the process the Minister has described does not seem like it is fast enough to ensure that emergency remedial action of the kind provided for by clause 31 will happen. I hope the Government will take this and those other points away.
Dehenna Davison
Again, I am grateful to the shadow Minister and to the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden. On the shadow Minister’s point about communications ensuring that tenants know where to go and how this process works, we have been working with organisations that represent landlords, social housing residents and the housing ombudsman service. We delivered communications and marketing campaigns in 2021 and this year to ensure that social housing residents were aware of how to make a complaint and how to seek redress where appropriate. We are putting in the work through communications to ensure that tenants understand the process, but I have heard his points on timeliness and I will endeavour to take that away.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 6 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Appointment of health and safety lead by registered provider
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
Clause 10 is not contentious, and we broadly welcome it, but I would appreciate some clarification from the Minister on a specific issue arising from it. At present, proposed new section 126B ensures that
“The functions of the health and safety lead”
are to
“monitor the provider’s compliance with health and safety requirements”
and to notify the provider’s responsible body of any material risk to or failures of compliance, and to advise on steps to ensure the provider addresses them.
As Ministers may be aware, the Local Government Association, among others, has inquired what—if any—channels of communication or reporting mechanisms will exist between the health and safety leads of registered providers and the regulator itself. The LGA also highlighted the obvious need for sufficient new burdens funding in the case of local authority landlords. Will the Minister provide answers today or in writing to the following questions? First, did the Government intend to establish any direct permanent relationship between the regulator and RP health and safety leads? Secondly, what is the rationale for not requiring health and safety leads to report any material risks or failures of compliance directly to the regulator, as well as the responsible body, as a matter of course? Thirdly, can the Minister guarantee that the Government will make sufficient new burdens funding available to local authorities to fully implement the provisions in the clause?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow up in writing with a bit more clarity and specific detail on the questions the shadow Minister has raised.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
Electrical safety standards
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
We welcome the Government’s decision, in response to concerns raised during the passage of the Building Safety Act 2022, to carry out a consultation on the introduction of mandatory checks on electrical installations for social housing at least once every five years and to include measures within this Bill to partially implement such checks—only partially, because the section of the Housing and Planning Act 2016 that this clause seeks to amend is concerned with properties let by landlords, not owner-occupier leaseholders. That is an important distinction, for reasons I will explain.
As we know, there is currently no legal requirement in England for social landlords or leaseholders to undertake electrical safety checks of their dwellings. The situation is distinct from that in the private rented sector, where the Housing and Planning Act introduced mandatory safety checks on electrical installations at least once every five years.
We know that fires in numerous tower blocks, including Grenfell, Shepherd’s Court, and Lakanal House, were caused by electricity. Home Office fire data shows a consistently high level of accidental electrical fires in high-rise buildings with 10 or more flats. Campaign groups such as Electrical Safety First have been at pains to stress that those buildings were mixed-tenure buildings containing an assortment of owner-occupier leasehold and social rented units and that there is therefore a case, given that the fire safety of a building depends on the safety of all the units within it, for ensuring parity in electrical safety standards across all tenures in high-rise residential blocks.
The Government’s own consultation on this issue noted that the National Federation of ALMOs supported introducing electrical safety requirements for owner-occupiers in mixed-tenure blocks and highlighted that properties being considered by authorities for London’s right to buy-back programme often have electrical installations that are
“in a state of significant disrepair.”
Given that we know that many high-rise social housing blocks contain owner-occupied flats owned on a leasehold basis, it surely cannot be right that a leaseholder living next door to a social renter will not have their electrical installations mandated to be checked every five years. To put it another way, what good is having the electrical installations of two thirds of a building checked every five years if the other third is not? The risk of a potentially life-threatening fire obviously does not discriminate by tenure.
Bob Blackman
This is a very significant point, particularly with what happened at Grenfell. We should reflect on that carefully. Who does the hon. Gentleman suggest should carry out the inspections and how would they be enforced? One of the problems that is clearly still relevant is people buying second-hand white goods that are not safety checked, which could then be faulty and cause electrical fires. In his research, has the hon. Member come up with any proposals as to how this measure could be implemented and work could be undertaken?
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point—it is a point well made. I do not have a comprehensive answer to hand. There are provisions in this clause that apply to mandatory electrical safety checks for social rented properties. There are similar requirements in place for the private rented sector. My instinct is that it would seem obvious that those could be applied to the owner-occupier sector in a way that the provisions in the clause perhaps could not be. Whatever way we cut it, what we want to see are mandatory checks on all electrical installations in all units in high-rise buildings, because, as I said, fire does not discriminate between tenure. I hope the Minister will take the points away for further consideration.
Dehenna Davison
The shadow Minister is right to highlight the consultation, which concluded in August. It included a call for evidence seeking views on whether leasehold properties in mixed tenure social housing blocks should have mandatory five-year checks. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East was right to say that we need to get this mechanism right to ensure that people living in mixed-use blocks are protected. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his pragmatism on this point. We are still assessing the responses to the consultation, so it is a bit too early to say what the outcome will be and we do not wish to pre-empt it. However, we will announce further details as the work progresses, and I will endeavour to keep the shadow Minister informed.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Clauses 15 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Julie Marson.)
Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Chair
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email any speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. All the normal rules apply.
Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and then a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. I am sure we can take those matters formally, without debate. I first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Ordered,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 29 November) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 November;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 December;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 8 December;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 13 December;
(2) the proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 13; Schedule 1; Clause 14; Schedule 2; Clauses 15 to 35; Schedule 3; Clauses 36 to 38; Schedule 4; Clauses 39 and 40; Schedule 5; Clauses 41 to 44; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(3) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 13 December.—(Dehenna Davison.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Dehenna Davison.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.
We will now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. A selection and grouping list for today’s sittings is available in the room. It shows how the clauses and selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar issues. Please note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order they are debated, but in the order that they appear on the amendment paper. The selection and grouping list shows the order of debates. Decisions on each amendment and on whether each clause should stand part of the Bill are taken when we come to the relevant clause.
A Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group is called first. Other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on all or any of the amendments in that group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of the debate on a group of amendments, I shall call the Member who moved the lead amendment again. Before they sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision on it. If any Member wishes to press another amendment in the group to a vote, they will need to let me know in advance.
Clause 1
Fundamental objectives
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 1, page 1, line 5, at end insert—
‘(aa) after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) to ensure the provision of care and support services in supported exempt accommodation and in temporary accommodation are adequate, well-managed, safe, and of appropriate quality,”’.
This amendment would ensure that support services provided to residents of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation for those properties that already fall within consumer regulation are adequate and of an acceptable quality.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8—Standards relating to supported and temporary accommodation—
‘(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 192 (Overview)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “social housing” insert “, supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation”
(3) In section 193 (Standards relating to consumer matters)—
(a) in subsection (1), after “social housing” insert “or accommodation to which subsections (1A) to (1D) applies”
(b) after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State, after consultation with the regulator, may by order bring into consumer regulation accommodation managed or in the control of a registered provider that falls within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D).
(1B) An order under subsection (1A) may apply to either subsection (1C) or (1D) only or to both and orders commencing either can be made separately at different times and for any part of England.
(1C) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is supported exempt accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1D) The accommodation to which this subsection applies is temporary accommodation as defined by regulations under subsection (1E).
(1E) The Secretary of State may by regulations set out the classes of accommodation that fall within subsection (1C) or subsection (1D) and may define each class by reference to the Housing Benefit Regulations 2006 or the Universal Credit Regulations 2013.”
(c) in subsection (2), after paragraph (2)(d) insert—
“(da) standards relating to supported exempt accommodation or temporary accommodation,”’.
This new clause would ensure that providers of supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation who are registered with the regulator and charge market rents covered by housing benefit are brought within the scope of the new consumer regulatory regime.
Matthew Pennycook
It is a pleasure to begin our line-by-line consideration of the Bill with you in the Chair, Sir Edward, and in a Committee with a considerable amount of housing expertise, which I hope will put us in good stead for further improving the Bill. The Opposition have consistently maintained that the Bill is uncontroversial legislation, and we welcome it and the measures it contains.
We desperately need to build more social homes, but we also need to ensure that our existing stock is of good quality and well managed. Almost half a million social homes fail to meet the Government’s decent homes standard and, as that standard is not a requirement, it is almost impossible to enforce.
The Regulator of Social Housing can and does react to systemic failings among registered providers—for example, the request for evidence issued in relation to damp and mould following the coroner’s report into the death of two-year-old Awaab Ishak in 2020—but at present it has no proactive way of regulating consumer standards. The spotlight of media attention, tenant campaigning or intervention by individual hon. Members should not be required to trigger the appropriate response to substandard conditions in social housing, yet that is all too often the case.
To ensure that tenants are properly protected by a robust, effective system of regulation, major reform is needed. Indeed, it is long overdue, and the Secretary of State was right to concede, in the wake of Awaab’s untimely death, that the Government have been too slow to toughen regulation in this area.
Despite its limited number of clauses, the Bill is therefore of real significance for millions of social housing tenants across the country. That is why the Opposition regret how long it took the Government to bring it forward, and it is why we want to see it on the statute book as soon as possible. To that end, we want to see the Committee to sit no longer than is absolutely necessary. However, we are determined to see the Bill strengthened in a number of areas, so that standards in social housing markedly and rapidly improve, tenants are able in practice to pursue and secure effective redress, the collective voice of tenants is heard more audibly and they have a greater role in shaping national policy, and we are better able to respond to pressing issues affecting some of those living in social housing, such as serious violence.
We owe it to the bereaved and the survivors of Grenfell, Awaab’s family and all those social tenants currently living in appalling conditions to pass the most robust legislation that the House can possibly deliver. To that end, we have tabled a limited number of amendments in key areas, the intention of which is to persuade the Government to reflect sincerely on how the Bill might be improved still further. Although we intend to work constructively with Ministers to secure the Bill’s speedy passage out of Committee, we expect the Government to give serious consideration to the arguments that we make in respect of those amendments.
Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation. The new clause would provide the Secretary of State with the power to bring properties let at market rents by non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation registered with the regulator into the scope of consumer regulation. It would allow Ministers to do so at a time of their choosing and on an area-by-area basis as required. The amendment would extend the regulator’s fundamental objectives to the care and support services provided by supported exempt and temporary accommodation in relation to properties that already fall within the scope of consumer regulation.
I want to be clear at the outset that these proposals do not seek to extend the scope of the regulatory framework provided for by the Bill to all non-registered supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers in a way that could place unreasonable burdens on the regulator. Rather, they would apply only to those landlords who are registered, or entitled to register, with the regulator as non-profit making providers because they let some properties at below market rents—that is, social housing.
The purpose of these two related proposals is to address an existing loophole that, unless addressed, will remain a problematic gap in the consumer regulatory regime after the Bill has come into force. It is that non-profit making providers of supported exempt or temporary accommodation can let properties at market rents that are eligible for housing benefit support on the basis that “more than minimal” care, support or supervision is being provided, without those properties coming within the scope of consumer regulation.
We know that the regulatory gap is currently being exploited by unscrupulous providers. The three biggest registered providers of non-commissioned exempt accommodation in Birmingham last year, Reliance Social Housing CIC, Ash-Shahada Housing Association Ltd and Concept Housing Association CIC, received £159 million in housing benefit payments for 16,370 market rent properties that fell outside consumer regulation. They were able to operate those properties free from the fear of intervention on consumer standards grounds, because they collectively operate 310 properties—in Reliance’s case, it is just six—at below market rents.
As a result of the regulator being unable to enforce against poor performance by providers in relation to market rent properties that they operate on the basis of consumer standards, the regulator can enforce against bad practice in such cases only on grounds of economic viability. It has done so—for example, it found the large, Birmingham-based Reliance to be non-compliant with the governance and financial viability standard in October last year. However, Opposition Members struggle to understand why the Government have not enabled the regulator to take action against supported exempt and temporary accommodation providers letting units at market rents who fail to meet expected standards, using the tools provided for by the new proactive consumer regulatory regime introduced by the Bill, given that permitting it to do so would simply provide an additional weapon in the regulator’s arsenal when it comes to clamping down on unscrupulous providers.
It is true that clause 8(d) tightens the definition of what constitutes a non-profit making provider. That should help to ensure that some of the most flagrant abuses, such as out-of-balance portfolios, can be clamped down on. However, it will not end all instances of rogue providers gaming the system by letting some properties at below market rents, registering as non-profit making providers on that basis, and then operating far larger numbers of substandard market rent properties outside the scope of consumer regulation. For example, those with more balanced portfolios—presumably even if that were achieved on the basis of a split of 51% of properties let non-profit and 49% for profit—will escape the provisions of clause 8 that I just referred to.
We recognise that the Government support, as we do, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Harrow East. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is on the Committee with us. His Bill will enhance local authority oversight of supported housing and thereby enable local authorities to drive up standards in their areas. However, it does not contain provisions to close the particular loophole that is the focus of amendment 13 and new clause 8. As such, if the Government do not accept our amendments or bring forward their own to tackle the loophole in question, enforcement action on the part of the regulator in these cases will be confined to matters of economic regulation.
One element of our concern about the gap in the proposed consumer regulatory regime that the amendments seek to address is that, once the hon. Gentleman’s Bill has received Royal Assent, rogue providers of supported exempt accommodation will be incentivised to exploit this loophole further, as it will be one of the last remaining loopholes because their operations will be hampered by the range of measures in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill. Using the Bill before us to address the issue of supported exempt and temporary accommodation landlords who are already partially regulated would also close down the loophole more quickly than would be possible by doing so through the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, because it will be some time before that Bill is in Committee, and the detailed regulations required to give it full effect will take some time to be passed.
If the Government were persuaded of the merits of the argument underpinning amendment 13 and new clause 8, they could determine to deal with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation separately. We ultimately decided that the amendments should cover both, because there is good evidence to suggest that the loophole is being increasingly exploited by private temporary accommodation providers, in particular those providing nightly paid temporary accommodation, who often describe themselves as social landlords but who are exempt from consumer regulation in relation to substandard properties they let at market rents at great cost to the taxpayer.
Dealing with supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation together is also an attempt to pre-emptively address the scenario in which the Government accept that properties let at market rents by registered non-profit making providers of supported exempt accommodation should be covered by consumer regulation and legislate to that end, but, by setting aside market rent temporary accommodation let by registered non-profit providers, ensure that that becomes an obvious target for rogue providers seeking to escape consumer regulation standards.
I appreciate fully—I expect that the Minister will respond along these lines—that the Government will be reluctant to re-open at this stage of the Bill’s proceedings what and who falls within the ambit of the new consumer regulatory regime, but surely they cannot believe that the Bill as drafted ensures that support services beyond general management that are provided to residents of supported exempt and temporary accommodation will be of acceptable quality, or that non-profit making registered providers can simply ignore consumer standards when it comes to those properties let at market rents eligible for housing benefit support.
The issues that are the subject of these two amendments will need to be addressed if the Government are serious about clamping down on rogue providers who take public money while failing vulnerable people. I hope that the Minister can signal that the Government are minded to act either by accepting the amendments or by bringing forward their own in due course.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Edward. I am incredibly grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, for the constructive way he has embraced this debate, for the Opposition’s broad support for the Bill, and for his commitment to ensuring that the regulator is as robust as it can be. On that point, we have certainly found some early agreement.
As the hon. Member outlined, amendment 13 would extend the remit of the regulator to the care and support provided to residents in supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation, while new clause 8 would extend the remit to those types of accommodation when they are not social housing but are held by a registered provider.
Temporary accommodation and supported housing that meets the definition of social housing is already regulated under the regulator’s standards, and the Care Quality Commission already regulates the provision of personal care in supported housing. The support needs of people in supported housing are wide, varied and often complex compared with those living in general needs accommodation. That is why we are supporting targeted measures in the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, to tackle the issues we are seeing in supported housing. I echo the shadow Minister’s comments; I am very grateful that my hon. Friend is bringing his incredible expertise to the Committee.
While there are many excellent supported housing providers, the Government recognise that there are some rogue supported housing landlords. Let me be completely clear for the record: any abuse of the supported housing system will not be tolerated. The Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill will introduce national standards to be applied to supported housing and to give local authorities new powers to introduce licensing schemes and other enforcement powers.
Temporary accommodation is a key safety net for homeless households in this country. The homelessness code of guidance is clear that, at a minimum, temporary accommodation must be free from all category 1 health hazards, as assessed by the housing health and safety rating system, and it must be suitable for all members of the household. Households have the right to request that the council reviews the suitability of their accommodation.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
On temporary accommodation for homeless families and the code of guidance, who enforces the code? Who knows whether councils are living up to it? Who inspects the accommodation with a third eye to see whether it meets the standards?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow that up with the hon. Member in writing after our sittings today.
Dehenna Davison
As I have just outlined, I will write to the hon. Member to pick up her point following today’s sittings.
The focus of the Regulator of Social Housing is on regulating the standards for registered providers of social housing. I believe that the regulator should remain focused on that vital role, and that greatly expanding its scope to include temporary accommodation could be a significant risk to its expertise. I do not believe that expanding the scope of the regulator into those areas, as proposed by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, is the right way to address them. The regulator should continue to focus on ensuring that registered providers provide safe and high-quality social housing for tenants and on delivering the new consumer regime.
On that basis, I ask the shadow Minister to consider withdrawing his amendments today, but with a commitment from me to follow up with him before Report to see whether anything more can be done.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister for their compliments about me and my Bill. No doubt we will be debating it in one of these Committee Rooms in the not too distant future.
One concern about the position on supported housing is the number of regulators that get involved already. There is almost a confusion of regulation. There is another problem: as we legislators seek to plug gaps, the rogue landlords seek alternative ways of making huge amounts of money. We already know that nearly £1 billion in housing benefit was paid out last year on supported housing in exempt accommodation. Clearly, that was for people who are vulnerable and need help and support. They are from a wide variety of different backgrounds. They might be recovering drug addicts; they might be people who became temporarily homeless or people who have had mental or physical health problems. I could go through a long list of people, but they are vulnerable and need help and support.
However, I have a concern about the proposed amendments. They seek to plug a gap, but are they comprehensive enough? We need more discussion to make sure we have a comprehensive measure that includes everything and makes it clear who the regulator is. Given the interventions by the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, we want to make sure, as a Committee and as legislators, that the laws we introduce are actually enforced.
Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)
The shadow Minister made a very interesting point, and I believe his case has some merit. We have invested in pilots in several areas of the country so that we can explore the case more fully. When the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee looked at the procedure, there was some frustration on the part of Members about the fact that we cannot easily compartmentalise the breadth of people who are supported in the accommodation, so a range of organisations have oversight of the quality of the accommodation provided, supported or otherwise. We need further work to be done through the pilots to make sure that any intervention we make does not have unintended consequences for the providers who provide excellent quality supported accommodation.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Clearly, while the amendments may have good intentions, he makes a good point. We do not want the good providers, who are doing a fantastic job in supporting people to rebuild their lives, to face unnecessary burdens and regulation. It behoves the movers of amendments such as these to ensure that we have covered all those bases.
We must therefore ask: even though the amendments look superficially beneficial, do we have a comprehensive series of measures that plugs all the loopholes and does not burden good providers? Rogue providers are smart; they will look at any gaps in the law and for all opportunities to exploit the system and vulnerable people. The sensible thing would be to withdraw the amendment and have further discussion so that, together, on a cross-party basis, we can make sure that the Bill ends up in the right place.
Siobhain McDonagh
I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. At the moment, we have two things going on. First, we have exempt accommodation, where private property developers access vulnerable people and place them in houses in multiple occupation, cream off large amounts of housing benefit and provide no support to those individuals. They are exploited and left until the police, in many cases, or mental health services come along and take them away. Secondly, neighbourhoods are completely terrorised by people who are vulnerable but unable to control their behaviour, and absolutely nobody regulates that.
I represent a suburban south-west London constituency. Do not get me wrong; properties are not cheap, but they are cheaper than in other bits of London. Companies such as Stef & Philips are exploiting wholesale every loophole and making large amounts of money to bring fear and distress to neighbourhoods and to the residents who occupy those premises.
Last week, a lady who lives in the Pollards Hill area came to my surgery. The 1930s semi-detached house next door to her had been converted into an HMO for five vulnerable tenants. There were no bins to collect the rubbish and no facilities to ensure people could live adequately. She lives next door and has cancer. One of the residents in that home had pulled a knife on her only the day before, and all the other vulnerable tenants in the house had to stay locked in their rooms to avoid that individual. Stef & Philips are making hundreds or thousands of pounds every week from that property.
In Ravensbury, another ward in my constituency, on Malmesbury Road, the same company had a man who was so vulnerable that the police raided the property and had to withdraw because he had a crossbow and they needed firearms support. The whole street was blocked off. That is St Helier estate, for any hon. Members who may know it. It is a beautiful local authority estate built after the first world war to provide homes fit for heroes. The house is beautiful, but not as an HMO for five vulnerable people. People in the street are terrified. Who knows how terrified the other residents in the property are? The company’s balance sheet goes up and up while people go out to work to pay ever-higher tax rates to sustain that company in exploiting people.
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making excellent points. That is the human impact of the lack of regulation and enforcement on rogue providers that are making millions out of very vulnerable people. Their impact is felt not only by the individuals who are being harmed, but by entire communities. Does she agree that although we do not want regulation for regulation’s sake, we need not just regulation but enforcement for those who are getting away with this scot-free right now? We do not just need legislation; we need the ability to enforce and act.
Siobhain McDonagh
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. If there is no regulation, this will just grow and grow. As mortgage interest rates go up and business for buy-to-let landlords becomes less profitable, more people are going to look at providing this style of housing, because they can exploit the housing benefit system. If that is not happening in the constituencies of all the hon. Members of this Bill Committee, it will be coming to them soon.
Eddie Hughes
The point I am about to make is non-political, given that I am going to use the example of Labour-led Birmingham Council. That council did pilot work, and its scrutiny committee, which was chaired by a Labour member, subsequently published a report. It was able to identify a number of improvements that it could make within the existing legislation. I fully appreciate that legal challenge is an option for landlords who have their claims turned down. However, the council was able to reduce the number of people coming through the pipeline to provide this type of accommodation, and it was able to improve the quality of that accommodation. There is some room for councils who are prepared to focus on this, to improve outcomes for local people within the framework of the existing legislation.
Siobhain McDonagh
I turn to Aves housing association, which was run by a man who was exposed by the BBC for running a former supposed housing association that is in fact a commercial enterprise. It specialises in parts of Pollards Hill and Longthornton in my constituency, which neighbour Croydon, and it routinely takes very vulnerable people to live in houses that are simply not big enough for conversion. It accesses people’s universal credit accounts and takes their money. When the housing benefit department at Merton Council discovered that, it decided not to pay housing benefit to Aves residents. That might seem sensible to most Committee Members. However, that then meant that 92 vulnerable people were not having their rent paid, so were vulnerable to eviction—at which point, Merton Council’s housing department and adult social services departments would have collapsed. Local authorities are in a bind. Do they take notice of what is going on—in which case, they get responsibilities they cannot meet—or do they turn a blind eye because, in the end, that is the only way they can manage?
Bob Blackman
The hon. Member is making a very clear case about the problems in her constituency. One problem that local authorities face is that they have no powers to prevent such properties from being turned over in this way. Does she agree that one issue we have to deal with, which is not addressed in this amendment, is that local authorities need powers? Those powers might be around planning permission to do with HMOs and HMO regulation, to control the type of housing that she quite rightly describes as being a challenge in her area; or they might be over a licensing system to make sure that the operators of supported housing projects are fit and proper persons who will not exploit their position.
Further, data-sharing should be spread across the country. These rogues might well jump from Merton to Croydon to somewhere else, because they know that the local authority does not know about them. However, that is not within the scope of the amendment, although it is in the scope of my Bill, which I will be debating later. Although we would all agree that the issues that the hon. Member has raised are a scandal and need to be addressed, we must be clear that that is not within the scope of the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh
I believe that the regulator should have power to look at this area of housing. It is all very well for councils to get more powers, and I would be the first to agree with that, but many councils already have a lot of powers that they cannot use because they cannot afford to. They do not have access to social housing units. They do not have access to the level of environmental health officers that they need. They do not have access to the number of planning officers they need in the area of planning enforcement.
Sarah Owen
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. The pilot work that the hon. Member for Harrow East just spoke about is fantastic. We will take whatever we can from that and learn, but the point is that the councils and authorities that did that work had to have extra resources to use their existing powers. This is not just about legislating and enabling local authorities to have more powers; it is also about them having the funds and resources to use those powers.
Siobhain McDonagh
Absolutely, and I know the hon. Member for Harrow East will be aware of how few London councils ever prosecute anybody under their current powers. It is about regulation, but it is also about local authorities being able to use their powers. In the light of the recent Budget, local authorities’ powers will become even less well used if their finances continue to be squeezed.
Let us go back to Aves in Pollards Hill and Longthornton. I met the regulator and spoke about Aves and my concern about the exploitation of tenants. The regulator said to me, “We completely agree with you, but there is nothing we can do. We do not have the power to do anything.” Either we give the regulator the powers and do something about it, or we go on talking about it in a well-meaning way while the problem exponentially grows. I, for one, want to see some action rather than none.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I think this is an important Bill. Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation when provided by providers that are the subject of other parts of the Bill. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made a very good case.
The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden made a passionate speech, and I think we can all relate to what she was saying, because we all have examples in our constituency of providers who sound very legitimate and credible, but after they are looked into, it turns out that they are not. They are fly-by-nights who are just taking the opportunity provided by the loophole in regulations. We can all cite examples of HMOs that have been passed by councils because the councils do not have the powers to stop them. The impact on neighbourhoods is quite dire, and it really does destroy local communities.
While I appreciate the intentions behind the Opposition’s amendments, I think the better place to close the gaps in regulation would be in the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. This measure is obviously needed, but I think this Bill is the wrong place for it. I hope to speak later about some of the specific issues in my constituency and the importance of regulating the providers and ensuring the provisions of the Bill are met, because they are so needed.
Matthew Pennycook
That was an incredibly informed and helpful debate. I just want to say at the outset that we fully appreciate how complex an area of law and regulation this is. I have done enough of these Committees to know that the Minister is not going to simply stand up and accept the amendments we have cobbled together just on the basis of my speech, however good it might have been.
I will try to respond to the points made, which I take in the constructive spirit they were offered in. I do not think many of the points made get to the heart of what the amendments are driving at. I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow East: there is a plethora of regulators in housing and planning generally, and I am concerned that we are creating overlap and confusion in various ways. I will come to how that might be true in relation to the ombudsman and the regulator when we discuss clause 5, but that is absolutely a point.
The Minister made the point well: the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Harrow East, the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, includes a range of targeted measures to address the scandal—we all agree it is a scandal—of rogue providers of exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation in many cases. However, as I made clear, that Bill does not address this gap. The hon. Member for Erewash said that if it is not covered by these amendments, it can be done via the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, but it is not in that Bill. Perhaps it will end up in that Bill after Committee stage, in which case we will be entirely happy with that being a vehicle for it rather than this Bill, but it needs to be addressed.
Dehenna Davison
Absolutely, we will take this away. I would be grateful for the expertise of all on the Committee, including the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, who made an incredibly passionate case. Let us have a roundtable discussion about how best we can take this forward following Committee.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 2—Regulator duty to report on safety defects—
‘(1) In fulfilling its consumer regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must report to the Secretary of State on actions taken by registered providers to remediate unsafe external wall systems and other historic fire safety defects in social housing.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required to sufficiently address identified issues.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, the regulator would be required to report to the government on the progress of building safety remediation.
New clause 3—Regulator duty to support provision of social housing—
‘(1) In fulfilling its economic regulation objective under section 92K of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the regulator must–
(a) within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, and
(b) at intervals of no more than three years thereafter
provide a report to the Secretary of State on whether the supply of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.
(2) A report produced under this section may make recommendations relating to how to ensure that the provision of social housing in England and Wales is sufficient to meet reasonable demands.’
This new clause would ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing sufficient to meet reasonable demands the regulator would be required to report to the government on adequacy of social housing supply.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 1 relates to the fundamental objectives of the Regulator of Social Housing and adds safety and energy efficiency of tenants’ accommodation and transparency. New clauses 2 and 3 seek to take that further and expand the role of the regulator into new areas.
New clause 2 relates to monitoring the remediation of unsafe cladding and other fire safety defects in the social housing sector. I want to make clear from the outset that nothing is more important to this Government than making sure people are safe in their homes. The tragic, horrendous case of Awaab Ishak, which we are all unfortunately now familiar with, has highlighted the crucial role of registered providers of social housing in making sure that happens.
The Bill sits alongside other key reforms that we have introduced in response to the Grenfell Tower fire, including the Building Safety Act 2022 and the Fire Safety Act 2021. New clause 2 is incredibly well intentioned, given what it seeks to achieve, but the Bill is not the correct vehicle for it. A duty should be placed on the Regulator of Social Housing to undertake such monitoring. The regulator is not a specialist fire or building safety body. The proposed new clause would be a significant expansion of the regulator’s remit. Currently, the regulator does not have the expertise to fulfil that function effectively.
The question of who should undertake that kind of role is, however, an important one for Government. The Department is evaluating options on how best to monitor and report on the progress made in remediating unsafe cladding and other fire-safety defects. It is important that the work is done at pace, but thoroughly. I understand that hon. Members will be keen to study its outcomes and implications for future policy, but I must reiterate that it would be improper to pre-empt it while it is ongoing by allocating responsibility for that highly important function without the benefit of fully understanding the options. We need to ensure that that work is undertaken by those with the correct skills, expertise and capacity. My concern with new clause 2, therefore, is that it would make for a hasty decision that might mean we do not achieve the desired outcomes in the optimal way.
I turn to new clause 3. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is right to draw attention to the importance of increasing the supply of social housing. In the levelling-up White Paper, we made it clear that we want to
“increase the amount of social housing available over time to provide the most affordable housing to those who need it.”
Our £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will play an important role in achieving that aim, as will the measures we have taken to support increased council house building.
For its part, the regulator has an objective to support the provision of sufficient social housing. It discharges that role through its work to ensure that private registered providers are financially viable, efficient and well governed. In turn, that helps providers to obtain funding to enable them to deliver more social housing. However, I do not agree that we should make the regulator responsible for assessing the adequacy of social housing provision in England or, indeed, in Wales. I am concerned that such an additional role could divert resources away from the activities that should be the focus for the regulator, which is setting standards for social housing so that landlords are clear about expectations on them to deliver quality of housing, to monitor compliance with those standards and, where necessary, to undertake relevant enforcement action.
Organisations outside Government often publish their own analysis of the level of need for social housing. There are a number of different approaches to assess that, and not necessarily a single right answer. I am therefore not convinced that the regulator stepping in to provide its own assessment is the right approach. It should focus on the task at hand and on standards, quality and enforcement. On that basis we would not want to accept new clauses 2 and 3.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for her explanation of the clause and for the response to the two new clauses tabled by the Opposition. As the Minister has made clear, with a view to providing for a stronger and more proactive consumer regulatory regime, the clause expands the regulator’s fundamental objectives as set out in the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to include those of safety, transparency and—following the well-deserved success of Baroness Hayman’s amendment in the other place on standards relating to energy demand—energy efficiency.
My response to the case that the Minister made against new clauses 2 and 3 has, thankfully, pre-empted a number of the points she has just made. New clause 2 seeks to ensure that in meeting its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well managed and of appropriate quality, under proposed new subsection (3)(a) of the amended 2008 Act the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the progress of building safety remediation in the social housing sector.
According to the Department’s own figures, every one of the 160 social sector buildings identified as having unsafe aluminium composite material—ACM—cladding, similar to that which covered Grenfell Tower, have been remediated through the social sector ACM cladding remediation fund. When it comes to buildings in the social sector with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, we know that, as of 31 October, 251 have applied for Government funding for remediation. Alarmingly, as things stand, not a single one of those 251 buildings has been remediated.
Perhaps more worryingly, we have no estimate of the total number of social sector buildings with unsafe non-ACM cladding systems, because social landlords can apply for Government funding only if the costs of remediation are unaffordable or if there is a threat to their financial viability. We have no idea whatsoever how many social sector buildings have other non-cladding building safety defects.
There is a wider debate to be had outside this Committee about social landlords’ restricted access to funding for non-ACM remediation work, given the impact that has on social tenants, whose rent payments are contributing to the costs of the works required, and on providers in terms of upgrade and maintenance works, services provided such as welfare advice and the supply of new social homes.
However, all new clause 2 seeks to achieve is to make the regulator—which, as a result of the Bill will now have to perform its functions with a view to supporting the provision of social housing that is safe—report to the Secretary of State on the progress of remediating unsafe external wall systems and other historical fire safety defects in social housing, and provides it with the opportunity to make recommendations to the Secretary of State on further action required.
Speaking for the Government in the other place in response to a similar amendment in the name of Baroness Pinnock, Baroness Scott of Bybrook argued, as the Minister just has, that the type of monitoring sought by new clause 2 would not be “appropriate” for the regulator to undertake because
“it is not a specialist health and safety body.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 September 2022; Vol. 824, c. 114.]
I am afraid that we find that argument wholly unconvincing.
New clause 2 does not seek to impose a duty on the regulator to carry out inspections of social sector buildings that are either potentially unsafe or identified as unsafe and in need of remediation or to physically monitor the progress of remediation works. As such, it does not require the regulator to possess the relevant professional skills, expertise and capacity necessary for assessments of that nature. All it would require is that the regulator be responsible for reporting to the Government on the progress of remediation in respect of social sector buildings—on the overall number of such buildings identified as having defects and the progress of whether they have started and completed remediation.
Given that the regulator already collects data from registered providers to inform its regulation of standards, and that the Bill ensures that one of the regulator’s new fundamental objectives will be the safety of buildings, we believe it is entirely reasonable and appropriate to task it with reporting to the Government along these lines.
As the Minister made clear, the Government have been at pains over recent months to stress they are examining options for monitoring and reporting remediation progress in future. Yet, as we consider the Bill today, neither the Department nor the new Building Safety Regulator is providing accurate data with regard to the scale of the building safety challenge in the social housing sector, or progress toward meeting it; no firm proposals have been brought forward by the Government to address that gap; and we have no guarantees that appropriate measures will be forthcoming any time soon, although I take at face value what the Minister has just said.
The Bill rightly ensures that the provision of safe, high-quality social housing will be integral to the function of the regulator’s role. There can be no more important task in respect of social housing—I think we are agreed on this point—than to ensure that buildings that are either covered in combustible material or riddled with other non-cladding safety defects are made safe. New clause 2 would ensure the regulator monitors progress to that end and reports to Government. I urge the Minister to rethink. If the Government are not minded to amend the Bill as new clause 2 seeks, I urge them to bring forward other proposals for monitoring this important element of the remediation drive in the near future.
I turn to new clause 3. In a similar way to how new clause 2 seeks to place additional requirements on the regulator in relation to its fundamental objective to support the provision of social housing that is well-managed and of appropriate quality, new clause 3 seeks to ensure that, in meeting its fundamental objective under the 2008 Act to support the provision of social housing that is sufficient to meet reasonable demands, the regulator would also be required to report to the Government on the adequacy of social housing supply.
The problem to which this new clause relates is well known. While more people than ever are struggling to afford a secure place to live, nowhere near enough social homes are being built. Almost 1.2 million households in England are now languishing on a housing waiting list. The Green Paper that foreshadowed the Bill stated:
“Social housing remains central to our supply ambitions.”
Despite that, the Government are doing nowhere near enough to deliver the volume of social homes our country needs.
Not only are the Government failing to build the volume of social homes that we need, but by means of reduced grant funding, the introduction of the so-called affordable rent tenure, increased right-to-buy discounts and numerous other policy interventions, we would argue that they have actively engineered the decline of social housing over the past 12 years. The result is that not only were fewer than 6,000 social homes constructed last year but over 21,000 were sold or demolished—a net loss of 15,000 desperately needed genuinely affordable homes.
Bob Blackman
I agree with the shadow Minister that the provision of affordable social housing in this country is far too low. It has been far too low for far too long. That has been the case not just under this Government, but under successive Governments for more than 30 years.
The shadow Minister has put forward his case, and he quoted one report claiming that 145,000 units are required per year. The Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee and I have always taken the view that 90,000 units per year would be required just to get us back to where we should be. From that perspective, it is clear that there needs to be more investment in affordable social housing, and we need to get to a point where people have a place they can call home, a rent that they can afford, and the option to buy when their circumstances allow.
The new clauses seem to put extra burdens on the regulator, for example by requiring them to report on the amount of social housing there should be in this country. I do not think that is an appropriate role for the regulator. It is right that organisations, such as those the shadow Minister quoted—Shelter, Crisis, CIH and others—should be reporting and commenting to Government, but I do not think it is the role of the regulator to report to Government.
I think the role of the regulator is quite clearly to report on the condition of social housing. I hope as we go through the Bill—and I will challenge the Secretary of State on this particular issue—we will see some amendments that strengthen the role of the regulator to ensure that social housing providers are performing as they should be. That means providing a high-quality standard of accommodation. We have heard about what has happened in Rochdale, but the issue of the condition of property is not confined to Rochdale. It goes up and down the country.
We need to see dramatic improvements in the provision of not only the quantity of social housing, but the conditions within those units. It is a sheer scandal in this country that we are paying huge salaries to social housing providers who are pocketing the money while providing a very poor service for their tenants. We need to call them to account. I believe that comes through the role of the regulator. That is the way it should be. I hope we can see some strengthening of the Bill on that point through Government amendments, at least when we get to Report stage.
On safety defects, there is clearly an issue about data, performance and the funding of removing unsafe cladding and dealing with fire safety defects. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will know that I have been on this case for quite some time—since before Grenfell. One of the key issues here is about whether the regulator should be reporting on it, but frankly I think the regulator should be enforcing it. They should be making sure the providers actually do their job of providing safe accommodation for people.
While I recognise that the new clauses are well-intentioned, I do not think they hit the nub of where we need to be going. I hope the Government will come forward with some new clauses to strengthen the Bill when we get to Report stage, particularly in light of the scandal in Rochdale and the conditions people are facing up and down the country.
Siobhain McDonagh
Thank you, Sir Edward, for your generosity in calling me. I realise I registered quite late that I wanted to speak.
Why are we sitting here in this Bill Committee today? We are sitting here because, under the coalition Government’s bonfire of the quangos, we set fire to the housing inspectorate and the Audit Commission in the belief that no regulation of damp or mould growth in properties was required, that all the adjudicator had to do was look at the financial structure of housing associations, and that that would be enough. What a terrible error that has been.
In my constituency, the largest social housing provider is Clarion Housing Association. After an ITV news programme about some of its standards, it was referred to the regulator. The regulator’s decision was that it could not investigate because there was not a systemic problem. That is where we have got to. How many of us were distressed by Awaab Ishak’s death? How many of us know that we have plenty of social housing units in our constituencies with the same damp and mould growth problems? At the moment we have no form of regulation that can tackle that.
The adjudicator does not go out and look at properties or inspect procedures. The adjudicator is interested in the financial structures. I would never argue that we should not look at the financial viability of a housing association, but I also want to know what it does when it has problems of damp and mould growth. I want to know that a Government inspector goes out and sample-tests and looks at properties.
We would never accept an Ofsted that did not inspect schools or a Care Quality Commission that did not go in and inspect hospitals, care homes or local authority social services, but we have accepted that the regulator has no responsibility for going into social housing properties and inspecting their conditions.
When we look at reducing regulation, we must remember Awaab Ishak, and remember that we do not have a regulator in our country that would do anything about that.
Dehenna Davison
I will be brief and just say that I recognise the arguments made by the shadow Minister, but I hope he recognises the arguments that I made in my opening statement. I have made a commitment to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East that before Report we will sit down to discuss the issues further and make sure the regulator has the teeth it really needs.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Advisory panel
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 14, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—
“(2A) The Panel may provide information and advice to the Secretary of State about, or on matters connected with, the regulator’s functions and wider issues affecting the regulation of social housing (whether or not it is requested to do so by either the regulator or the Secretary of State).”
This amendment would enable the Panel to provide information and advice and to proactively raise issues affecting social housing regulation more generally directly to the Secretary of State.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 15, in clause 2, page 2, line 17, at end insert—
“(8) The Panel must be chaired by a tenant of social housing.
(9) The Chair is responsible for setting Panel meeting agendas.
(10) The majority of persons appointed to the panel must be tenants of social housing.”
This amendment would ensure that tenant representation on the advisory panel is mandatory and that tenants are able to influence effectively what information and advice is presented to the regulator in respect of issues affecting social housing regulation.
Matthew Pennycook
For all its technical complexity, the Bill is ultimately about those who live in social housing and overhauling regulation to ensure that they are treated fairly by landlords who are well run, responsive, transparent and accountable. In considering the detail of the Bill, we must never forget that the impetus for it was the deaths of 72 men, women and children in the early hours of 14 June 2017. Those 72 human lives were ended in an inferno fuelled by the highly combustible cladding system installed on the outside of the tower block in which they lived, despite the fact that tenants had repeatedly sounded the alarm about the building’s safety defects and the fact that warnings were going unheeded.
I have met and spoken to Grenfell United, as I assume the Minister and many other Members have. I once again pay tribute to them and the wider Grenfell community. I know that what the survivors and the bereaved are determined to achieve is not only justice, but lasting change in how social housing is regulated and the power that tenants themselves can exercise. We firmly believe that the empowerment of tenants must be at the heart of the Bill, and we believe that a key test of its robustness is whether it establishes mechanisms that will enable tenants to influence in practice the regulator’s approach to regulating standards; to shape any future changes to regulatory standards and codes of practice; and to proactively raise wider issues affecting social housing regulation and policy, not just with the regulator but with Ministers.
The Government ostensibly agree that tenants are at the heart of the Bill, and Ministers have repeatedly assured us that one of its primary objectives is to give social housing tenants a voice and ensure that it is listened to. Yet when it comes to providing ways in which tenant representatives can exert a measure of control over the work of the regulator, shape the future direction of the regulatory arrangements that the Bill establishes and proactively influence national regulation and policy so as to shape the services that tenants receive from their landlords, we feel that the Bill is somewhat lacking in ambition.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for making his case for amendments 14 and 15. Amendment 14 seeks to enable the advisory panel to provide information and advice and to raise issues affecting social housing regulation directly with the Secretary of State. The social housing White Paper made it clear that the purpose of the advisory panel was to provide independent and unbiased advice specific to the regulator on matters connected to regulation. Clearly, the views of tenants are central to that objective.
As the hon. Gentleman outlined, in parallel we also established the social housing quality resident panel, which will provide an opportunity for us to hear from tenants. The aim of the resident panel is to enable tenants to share their views directly with Government and Ministers on their approach to improving the quality of social housing, and on whether the Government’s interventions will deliver the changes that they want to see.
The resident panel is made up of 250 social housing residents from across the country and from diverse backgrounds. They met for the first time last week on 26 November, and will meet approximately monthly over the coming year, with opportunities for the agenda to be shaped by panel members. At that meeting, residents told the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), that the most important issues to them were how repairs are dealt with, how landlords are held to account and how complaints are handled by their landlords and the housing ombudsman. The Department’s resident panel and the regulated advisory panel have a specific role and remit to ensure that tenants’ views are properly represented to both Ministers and the regulator.
Amendment 15 seeks to require a social housing tenant to chair the advisory panel and have responsibility for setting the agenda that the panel considers. It also seeks to ensure that social housing tenants comprise the majority of panel members. We share the notion that it is vital that tenants’ voices are heard, but it is important that the advisory panel considers the full range of regulatory issues that the regulator has to tackle. That means that we need to allow a diverse collection of voices to share their knowledge and opinions with the regulator.
Consumer matters are rightly at the forefront of the Bill but, equally, working to resolve some of the economic issues should not be diminished. Legislating for a tenant to chair and set the agenda and requiring the majority of the panel members to be tenants would not support what we are trying to achieve with the advisory panel. I am concerned that being too prescriptive in legislation about how the advisory panel must operate may prevent the panel from having the flexibility to decide how it best operates. In practice, I expect that all members of the advisory panel, along with the regulator, will shape how it works and what it considers.
We are committed to ensuring that tenants can effectively engage with the Department and the regulator, and that tenant voices are at the heart of social housing regulation and policy, but we do not feel that amendments 14 and 15 are necessary to achieve that so I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw them.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that helpful response, and I take on board the concerns she raised about the amendments.
I am slightly concerned about the lack of what we would consider to be true tenant empowerment. The quality resident panel is important, but it only lasts a year, so how will we get ongoing tenant engagement with the work of the regulator to inform how it operates, to shape future regulation, which is part of its remit, and to raise future issues of concern to tenants nationally, in terms of social housing regulation and policy? We do not think the Bill allows for that, and in all honesty I cannot understand the Government’s objection to allowing the advisory panel to notify Ministers directly, rather than the regulator, in certain rare circumstances. As the Minister said, the panel is at present constituted by the regulator, which appoints its membership, and it can only provide views directly to the regulator. We think there are some circumstances in which it may need to do otherwise. I hope the Minister takes away those points.
Eddie Hughes
Although there might be some deliberation about this mechanism, there are several mechanisms through which resident organisations are able to engage with Ministers and the regulator. I am delighted to see representatives of Grenfell United in the Public Gallery. There is a regular opportunity to meet Ministers, although it is not prescriptive and perhaps not as frequent as many would like, but the Government are certainly determined to build on it.
Matthew Pennycook
We recognise that Ministers meet tenants and tenant representatives frequently. My concern is that if tenants on the advisory panel have an issue that they feel is sufficiently serious that they need to bring it to the attention of Ministers, rather than the regulator, they should not have to rely on attempting to get a meeting with Ministers. There should be a mechanism through which they can put serious issues on the desk of the Secretary of State or the Minister if they feel that they, as well as the regulator, need to know about them. That is the point we are trying to address with amendment 14.
On amendment 15, I understand the Minister’s concerns about being too prescriptive, but I urge the Government to go away and think again about the membership of the advisory panel. I appreciate fully the need to have a diverse panel, but as I read clause 2(4), there is nothing on the face of the Bill to prevent the Government from putting one tenant or tenant representative on the panel and leaving it at that. There is no minimum quota for tenants, and we want tenant voices to be properly represented.
Bob Blackman
The shadow Minister is making a good point. We want to empower tenants, but his proposal could have an unintended consequence. Supposing tenant representatives on the board cannot agree among themselves who will be the chair, the panel could meet, but obviously that would be a difficult situation. There may potentially be social tenants from various parts of the country, representing different organisations. It is therefore not appropriate to prescribe a chair on the face of the Bill; that would defeat the objective. It might well be that we could find some suitable wording about the number of representatives, but I do not think we should force the panel to have a particular individual or representative as the chair.
Matthew Pennycook
The point about obvious issues around tenant representation and selection is well made, although those issues exist for the quality residents panel and the 250 members it selects. They have existed every time we have tried to create a body that gives voice to residents, so I do not think they are insurmountable. I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman thinks a minimum level of tenant representation on the panel is a good thing, and I urge the Government to think again about that.
We ultimately want to achieve tenant empowerment on the advisory panel so that tenants can be confident that, when the advisory panel gives information and advice to the regulator about the new system of regulatory standards, its voice is properly heard and it can bring issues to the attention of Ministers if required. I hope the Government will take away the points we have made about the amendments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 2 makes it a requirement that the regulator will engage with a wide range of stakeholders, including tenants and landlords. It also sets out expectations about who should be represented on that panel. It is not just about the regulator asking a group of people for views once it has already made up its mind about what it wants to do. The panel is designed to be used to test and shape the regulator’s thinking. For example, we expect the regulator to engage the panel on the design and implementation of new consumer standards. The clause also empowers the panel to raise issues directly with the regulator that its members consider important. I hope the Committee will support the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Power to charge fees
Dehenna Davison
I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 4, page 3, line 40, leave out “follows” and insert
“set out in subsections (2) to (6)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 2.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 2.
Clause stand part.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 4 and Government amendments 1 and 2 deal with the regulator’s fee-charging powers. As we heard from a number of hon. Members on Second Reading, the Regulator of Social Housing must be provided with the necessary funding to enable it to deliver the outcomes the Bill is designed to achieve.
Once the new consumer regime is implemented, the regulator will see substantial growth in its regulatory activity, which means its costs will increase significantly. It is Government policy to maximise the recovery of costs of arm’s length bodies, so clause 4 will refine the existing fee-charging power to allow for the cost of some additional functions to be recovered, and to charge fees that cover costs of activities that may not be connected to the specific fee payer, such as the cost of investigation and enforcement. Any significant changes to the design of the regime will be consulted upon and require ministerial approval.
Government amendments 1 and 2 also address the regulator’s fee-charging powers. The amendments remove specific provision allowing the regulator to charge following the completion of inspections, if authorised by the Secretary of State by order. The existence of that special provision relating to fees for inspections is no longer necessary given the changes we are making to the regulator’s general power to charge fees. That power will now allow it to cover the cost of inspections in its fees for initial and continued registration.
Leaving the provision in legislation erroneously risks causing confusion and casting doubt on the regulator’s ability to set fees to cover inspections as part of its general fee-setting power. As such, the change serves to ensure that there is greater clarity and consistency in this legislation.
Clause 4 establishes the parameters to the regulator’s fee-charging powers and makes clear that it can charge the sector for costs that may be unconnected to the specific fee payer. Government amendments 1 and 2 support clause 4 by delivering a technical change that will ensure there is no confusion over the powers available to the regulator to deliver maximum cost recovery. On that basis, I commend the clause to the Committee and beg to move the amendments.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that explanation of Government amendments 1 and 2. As she makes clear, clause 4 amends section 117 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to clarify the extent of the regulator’s fee-charging powers. New subsection (4A) adds to the 2008 Act and makes it clear that the regulator has the power to recover the cost of activities it does not currently charge social housing providers for.
If I understood the Minister correctly, Government amendment 2 revises section 202 of the 2008 Act because the powers in new subsection (4A) are sufficiently broad to cover charging providers fees for inspections. In short, as I hope she agrees, this is just a tidying-up exercise, the rationale for which is that the power is being omitted from section 202, concerning inspections only, because it more properly fits within section 117, concerning fees generally, to ensure that references to fee charging are all in one place in the 2008 Act. If that is the case, and amendment 2 in no way prevents the regulator from charging fees for inspections, we take no issue with it, because it is important that the regulator is able to charge fees to cover the significant costs involved in overseeing the comprehensive and rigorous Ofsted-style inspections regime that the Bill introduces.
The amendment raises wider issues relating to the resourcing of the regulator. Since the Bill’s publication, we have consistently expressed concern about the very real risk that the regulator will struggle to discharge its new functions and that it will not be adequately resourced to perform its enhanced role, in particular in relation to inspections. Prior to the Bill’s publication there were already concerns, expressed by the Select Committee and others, as to whether the regulator had the resourcing, skills and capacity to continue to regulate economic standards adequately, given the complex financial and corporate structures proliferating in the sector.
The new consumer regulatory regime will impose significant burdens on the regulator. The Minister stated on Second Reading that the Government are
“firmly committed to ensuring that the regulator has the resources that it needs not only to deliver the new consumer regulation regime but to ensure that it continues to regulate its economic objectives effectively.”—[Official Report, 7 November 2022; Vol. 722, c. 83.]
She also suggested that the Government were potentially minded to introduce changes to the fee regime to ensure that the regulator is funded appropriately. We accept that the Government have made limited additional funding available this financial year to support the new regime, but we are concerned that there may still be a resourcing challenge for the regulator. I would welcome any further assurances from the Minister that the regulator will have all the resources it needs to discharge the enhanced functions that the Bill requires of it.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising the question of resourcing. We touched on this on Second Reading, as he highlighted. He is right that in this financial year we are providing £4.8 million to aid the regulator in its vital work, but this is why it is so important that we get the fee charging regime right—to ensure that the regulator is properly resourced. As we have discussed today, on Second Reading and in the other place, the regulator needs the teeth to be able to do its job, and a huge part of that is resourcing. He is right that, effectively, we are tidying the legislation up to make it a bit neater and ensure further clarity, so I hope he will support these amendments.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Amendment made: 2, in clause 4, page 4, line 16, at end insert—
‘(7) In section 202 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (inspections: supplemental) omit subsections (4) to (7).’—(Dehenna Davison.)
This amendment repeals the provisions of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 which provide specific powers to enable the regulator to charge registered providers of social housing fees for inspections.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5
Relationship between regulator and housing ombudsman
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
I will be brief, but there is an issue that we want to highlight in relation to clause 5, which is about the relationship between the regulator and housing ombudsman. Clause 5 amends the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 and the Housing Act 1996 to add measures on the relationship between the two bodies, so that they can exchange information quickly and effectively to provide better protection for tenants, all of which is entirely to the good and uncontroversial. However, consideration of the clause provides me with an opportunity to seek clarification from the Minister about the precise role of each body in the reformed regulatory regime that the Bill establishes.
Taken at face value, the role of each body is clearly delineated: the regulator regulates registered providers in England, while the housing ombudsman seeks to resolve complaints from individual residents about their registered provider. The regulator operates on a top-down basis, and the housing ombudsman operates on a bottom-up basis. However, when one considers how the reformed regulatory regime will operate in practice, things start to appear somewhat more complicated.
First, if my reading of the Bill is correct, the regulator appears to be able to intervene in individual complaints. Clause 31, for example, enables the regulator to arrange for an authorised person to take emergency remedial action in respect of individual premises following completion of a survey. Presumably, it is therefore necessary for the regulator to receive a complaint from a tenant who fears they are at risk of an imminent serious health and safety risk. Otherwise, how could the regulator order the necessary survey of a given premises? It may be that that is not the case, and it will be for the ombudsman to refer an individual complaint to the regulator to allow them to make use of the provisions in clause 31; if that is the case, it is not clear from the Bill.
Secondly, following revisions to the housing ombudsman scheme enacted in September 2020, the ombudsman has a responsibility to publish a complaint handling code, enjoys a new power to issue complaint handling failure orders that can relate to a landlord’s overall complaint-handling policy and, crucially, has the ability to investigate beyond an initial complaint to establish whether evidence might indicate a systemic failing by a registered provider. It may be that the ombudsman can address such systemic failings on the part of registered providers on the basis of suggested changes to their policies only with the regulator responsible for exploring whether changes to their systems are necessary, but again that is not immediately clear in the Bill.
Eddie Hughes
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but it is based on the premise that these bodies operate in a completely siloed fashion. The relationship between them is a fluid one; they speak regularly and consider complaints and points that have been raised, which come to them from either direction. They work in a collaborative fashion and are then able to identify who should best proceed with a particular case. Obviously, it is governed by a memorandum of understanding, but it is a much more fluid and collaborative arrangement than that.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman, and I fully understand his point. I met with senior staff from the housing ombudsman yesterday, and we were talking precisely about the ways in which the respective roles operate and how they could be clarified. What these examples seek to illustrate is that there is still an obvious risk of overlap and duplication of roles in respect of these two bodies. One could argue, as the hon. Gentleman just has, that those issues can be resolved by means of updating the non-statutory memorandum of understanding that already sets out the functions of both organisations and how they work together, but that throws up two distinct issues in and of itself.
First, is it appropriate for us to leave these matters to the two bodies themselves to resolve, rather than clarifying on the face of the Bill the precise role of each body in the new regulatory regime, so as to avoid the duplication of functions and potential gaps in coverage—even if only in the short term, before they update that memorandum of understanding to reflect the new regulatory system of proactive consumer regulation?
Secondly, I am sure that hon. Members have been contacted by tenants who are aware that the Bill is progressing through the House. The expectations around the Bill are such that, after it receives Royal Assent, tenants who feel that they have not secured appropriate redress by means of a standard complaint to their landlord and believe that their grievance might be systemic in nature will understandably be uncertain about whether they should approach the ombudsman or the regulator with their complaint. I appreciate that the Department is alive to the risk, has produced guidance in the form of a fact sheet and is apparently delivering a communications campaign to tenants so that they know where to go and are well informed but, without greater clarity prior to Royal Assent about the precise roles of each body in the regime established by the Bill, I fear that neither will be sufficient to prevent a large degree of confusion. When debating this matter in the other place, Baroness Scott of Bybrook conceded that fears about confusion of the kind that I alluded to are legitimate, and that greater clarity is required as a result; yet, despite her promise to take the matter back to the Department, the Government are not amending the Bill to provide greater clarity or committing to take any further concrete steps—that I am aware of, at least—to ensure that confusion will be avoided.
As Shelter and others have argued, it is essential that the roles of the regulator and the housing ombudsman are clearly defined, that tenants and tenant groups understand the appropriate way to make complaints and that any complaints process or system is easy to use, accessible and effective. I would be grateful if the Minister provided greater clarity today and, if not today, in writing. I hope that, in general terms, she will assure me that the issues that I have highlighted will be both considered and acted on by the Department before the Bill receives Royal Assent.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for raising his concerns and giving me the opportunity to provide some clarity. We will take it from the experience of one particular tenant, if we may. If a tenant has a complaint, they should first go to their landlord but, if that complaint cannot be resolved between tenants and the landlord, it can be escalated to the housing ombudsman to investigate individual complaints from tenants. If the ombudsman’s investigation finds instances of maladministration on the part of the landlord, the ombudsman can issue orders to that landlord to put things right for the complainant. That can include requiring the landlord to pay compensation to the complainant or to undertake repairs.
If an investigation raises a potential breach of a regulatory standard or there is evidence of systemic failure by the landlord, the ombudsman can refer the matter to the regulator. In situations where the regulator has concerns that the provider is failing to maintain the premises in accordance with the regulatory standards, it can conduct a survey and, following the implementation of this Bill, arrange for emergency repairs to remediate the issue in cases where there is a risk of serious harm to tenants that is not being addressed by the landlord.
Matthew Pennycook
That is useful clarification. If I have correctly understood what the Minister is saying, emergency remedial action under clause 31 of the Bill stems, in the first instance, from a referral from the ombudsman. Let us think about that process in detail. To get to the ombudsman, a tenant would have to exhaust all stages of their resident provider’s internal complaints process, which is three stages in most cases. It takes about a year to get through it. They would then have to go to the ombudsman, who has a huge backlog. Clause 31 is about emergency remedial action that poses an imminent threat to health and safety. I urge the Government to think again about how, in particular, clause 31 operates because tenants will need to give notice to the regulator about specific clause 31 failures far quicker than the process she has just described.
Siobhain McDonagh
The situation gets even more complicated when a tenant exasperatedly says, “I want to go to a lawyer” and then the whole thing closes down.
Matthew Pennycook
We are testing the patience of Sir Edward and the rules, but the point my hon. Friend highlights is a genuine one about the complication of legal matters and whether tenants abandon complaints at whatever point, which I hope adds to the weight of the point that I have just made. It is not immediately clear, and we have to be clear with, most importantly, tenants once this Bill is in force about where they go and how they can seek redress under the provisions of the Bill as quickly as they need to. As I said, in the case of clause 31, the process the Minister has described does not seem like it is fast enough to ensure that emergency remedial action of the kind provided for by clause 31 will happen. I hope the Government will take this and those other points away.
Dehenna Davison
Again, I am grateful to the shadow Minister and to the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden. On the shadow Minister’s point about communications ensuring that tenants know where to go and how this process works, we have been working with organisations that represent landlords, social housing residents and the housing ombudsman service. We delivered communications and marketing campaigns in 2021 and this year to ensure that social housing residents were aware of how to make a complaint and how to seek redress where appropriate. We are putting in the work through communications to ensure that tenants understand the process, but I have heard his points on timeliness and I will endeavour to take that away.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 6 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Appointment of health and safety lead by registered provider
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
Clause 10 is not contentious, and we broadly welcome it, but I would appreciate some clarification from the Minister on a specific issue arising from it. At present, proposed new section 126B ensures that
“The functions of the health and safety lead”
are to
“monitor the provider’s compliance with health and safety requirements”
and to notify the provider’s responsible body of any material risk to or failures of compliance, and to advise on steps to ensure the provider addresses them.
As Ministers may be aware, the Local Government Association, among others, has inquired what—if any—channels of communication or reporting mechanisms will exist between the health and safety leads of registered providers and the regulator itself. The LGA also highlighted the obvious need for sufficient new burdens funding in the case of local authority landlords. Will the Minister provide answers today or in writing to the following questions? First, did the Government intend to establish any direct permanent relationship between the regulator and RP health and safety leads? Secondly, what is the rationale for not requiring health and safety leads to report any material risks or failures of compliance directly to the regulator, as well as the responsible body, as a matter of course? Thirdly, can the Minister guarantee that the Government will make sufficient new burdens funding available to local authorities to fully implement the provisions in the clause?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow up in writing with a bit more clarity and specific detail on the questions the shadow Minister has raised.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11
Electrical safety standards
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
We welcome the Government’s decision, in response to concerns raised during the passage of the Building Safety Act 2022, to carry out a consultation on the introduction of mandatory checks on electrical installations for social housing at least once every five years and to include measures within this Bill to partially implement such checks—only partially, because the section of the Housing and Planning Act 2016 that this clause seeks to amend is concerned with properties let by landlords, not owner-occupier leaseholders. That is an important distinction, for reasons I will explain.
As we know, there is currently no legal requirement in England for social landlords or leaseholders to undertake electrical safety checks of their dwellings. The situation is distinct from that in the private rented sector, where the Housing and Planning Act introduced mandatory safety checks on electrical installations at least once every five years.
We know that fires in numerous tower blocks, including Grenfell, Shepherd’s Court, and Lakanal House, were caused by electricity. Home Office fire data shows a consistently high level of accidental electrical fires in high-rise buildings with 10 or more flats. Campaign groups such as Electrical Safety First have been at pains to stress that those buildings were mixed-tenure buildings containing an assortment of owner-occupier leasehold and social rented units and that there is therefore a case, given that the fire safety of a building depends on the safety of all the units within it, for ensuring parity in electrical safety standards across all tenures in high-rise residential blocks.
The Government’s own consultation on this issue noted that the National Federation of ALMOs supported introducing electrical safety requirements for owner-occupiers in mixed-tenure blocks and highlighted that properties being considered by authorities for London’s right to buy-back programme often have electrical installations that are
“in a state of significant disrepair.”
Given that we know that many high-rise social housing blocks contain owner-occupied flats owned on a leasehold basis, it surely cannot be right that a leaseholder living next door to a social renter will not have their electrical installations mandated to be checked every five years. To put it another way, what good is having the electrical installations of two thirds of a building checked every five years if the other third is not? The risk of a potentially life-threatening fire obviously does not discriminate by tenure.
Bob Blackman
This is a very significant point, particularly with what happened at Grenfell. We should reflect on that carefully. Who does the hon. Gentleman suggest should carry out the inspections and how would they be enforced? One of the problems that is clearly still relevant is people buying second-hand white goods that are not safety checked, which could then be faulty and cause electrical fires. In his research, has the hon. Member come up with any proposals as to how this measure could be implemented and work could be undertaken?
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point—it is a point well made. I do not have a comprehensive answer to hand. There are provisions in this clause that apply to mandatory electrical safety checks for social rented properties. There are similar requirements in place for the private rented sector. My instinct is that it would seem obvious that those could be applied to the owner-occupier sector in a way that the provisions in the clause perhaps could not be. Whatever way we cut it, what we want to see are mandatory checks on all electrical installations in all units in high-rise buildings, because, as I said, fire does not discriminate between tenure. I hope the Minister will take the points away for further consideration.
Dehenna Davison
The shadow Minister is right to highlight the consultation, which concluded in August. It included a call for evidence seeking views on whether leasehold properties in mixed tenure social housing blocks should have mandatory five-year checks. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East was right to say that we need to get this mechanism right to ensure that people living in mixed-use blocks are protected. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his pragmatism on this point. We are still assessing the responses to the consultation, so it is a bit too early to say what the outcome will be and we do not wish to pre-empt it. However, we will announce further details as the work progresses, and I will endeavour to keep the shadow Minister informed.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Clauses 15 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Julie Marson.)
Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [ LORDS ] (Second sitting)
(1 year, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 6 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 4—Persons engaged in the management of social housing to have relevant professional qualifications—
“After section 217 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (accreditation) insert—
‘217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
(1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide that a person may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.
(2) Regulations specifying work for the purpose of subsection (1) may make provision by reference to—
(a) one or more specified activities, or
(b) the circumstances in which activities are carried out.
(3) Regulations made under this section may, in particular, require—
(a) the possession of a specified qualification or experience of a specified kind,
(b) participation in or completion of a specified programme or course of training, or
(c) compliance with a specified condition.
(4) Regulations may make provision for any of the following matters—
(a) the establishment and continuance of a regulatory body;
(b) the keeping of a register of qualified social housing practitioners;
(c) requirements relating to education and training before and after qualification;
(d) standards of conduct and performance;
(e) discipline and fitness to practise;
(f) removal or suspension from registration or the imposition of conditions on registration;
(g) investigation and enforcement by or on behalf of the regulatory body, and appeals against the decisions or actions of the regulatory body.”’
This new clause would require managers of social housing to have appropriate qualifications and expertise.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
As I said on Second Reading, the Government are fully committed to driving up housing management standards by improving the professional behaviours, skills and capabilities of all staff in the sector. The Grenfell tragedy and our subsequent social housing Green Paper consultation highlighted the fact that many staff did not listen to or treat residents with respect, provide a high-quality service or deal appropriately with complaints. The circumstances surrounding the death of Awaab Ishak have once again shown the tragic consequences that can occur when staff lack empathy and when tenants are not listened to. That is why clause 21 makes provision to enable the Secretary of State to direct the regulator of social housing to set standards for the competence and conduct of social housing staff. Registered providers will be required to comply with specified rules concerning the knowledge, skills and experience of social housing staff. They will also be required to comply with specified rules concerning the conduct expected of such individuals when dealing with tenants. Those factors are crucial in determining the quality of services provided to tenants.
Our approach offers a holistic solution to the issue of professionalisation. It champions the value of skills, knowledge and experience, and maintains landlords’ flexibility in choosing the most appropriate training programmes and qualifications to equip their workforces. The standards set under this clause will ensure that social housing staff develop the core skillsets and behaviours required to treat tenants with the empathy and respect that they deserve. They will also empower staff to take appropriate action to support tenants.
New clause 4, tabled by the shadow Minister, takes a different approach to achieving professionalisation. It gives the Secretary of State the power to stipulate, through regulations, that a person
“may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.”
As both myself and the Secretary of State set out on Second Reading, there is a real risk that mandating qualifications for all housing management staff would lead to the reclassification of housing associations to the public sector. The sector is close to the threshold for reclassification, and we saw that happen in 2015. Since then, a number of deregulatory measures have had to be taken before housing associations could be reclassified back to the private sector.
To make this point very clear, reclassification would bring around £90 billion of debt and all housing association annual spending on to the public ledger, and would likely reduce the ability of housing associations to improve the quality of their stock and build new homes. We have to be mindful of that risk and that outcome, which could be harmful to tenants.
However, we have listened carefully to the arguments made both in this House and the other place in support of mandatory qualifications. As I committed to do on Second Reading, I met with my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) to discuss this issue before the Bill reached Committee stage. We are continuing to look at whether there is any scope to include qualifications requirements in the competence and conduct standards without triggering reclassification. If we can identify a solution, then we will be able to bring that forward on Report.
We continue to believe that the existing provisions in the Bill, which will enable us to direct the regulator to set standards for the competence and conduct of all staff, will be an effective means of professionalising the sector. Our approach has been informed by the findings of our professionalisation review, which we will publish in full early next year. There is no doubt that housing management qualifications are an important aspect of professional development for some staff. Our review heard no clear evidence that such qualifications in and of themselves lead to better staff behaviours or improved tenant experiences. Qualifications such as those offered by the Chartered Institute of Housing will be an important part of how landlords ensure their staff have the skills, knowledge, experience and behaviours they need to deliver professional services, as required by the competence and conduct standards. Qualifications will sit alongside external and in-house training and more informal developmental tools such as staff supervision, mentoring and reflective practice.
Our review findings echoed what we heard after the Grenfell tragedy and more recently in relation to the death of Awaab Ishak—that what tenants most want and need is for all of the staff they deal with, whether housing managers, officers, or contact centre staff, to treat them with respect and empathy, to listen carefully and take appropriate and timely actions in response to their issues and concerns. We heard that these behaviours, and the interpersonal skills and attitudes that underlie them, are more likely to be achieved through a combination of organisational culture change led by senior executives and boards, adoption of codes of ethics and values, delivery of bespoke on-the-job training and effective supervision by experienced staff, than they are necessarily by formal qualifications.
The review also highlighted how important flexibility is in designing staff development programmes, given the sector’s diverse structures, operating models, role types, and breadth of service provision. Mandating qualifications for all housing management staff could hinder landlords in delivering the right mix of qualifications, training and development for their staff. Through the review we also heard that mandating qualifications for all staff would likely add to the recruitment and retention challenges faced by many landlords. Recruiting staff who have the right attitudes and aptitudes is more important to building a caring and empathetic workforce than employing people who possess formal qualifications. So we are concerned about the recruitment issues in that regard.
The standards that we are bringing forward will drive a holistic and organisation-wide approach to professional development, and deliver the empathetic, forward-looking and professional housing services the sector deserves, with staff who treat tenants with respect and act swiftly to remedy issues.
Dehenna Davison
Two to choose from—I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East.
Bob Blackman
The clause refers to the standards and competence that we expect to be achieved in this sector, and the amendment goes further and expands on them. However, it is silent on sanctions when they are not achieved. It is all very well having qualified people, but, if they do not perform properly, sanctions have to be available and directions by the Secretary of State should be possible. I wonder whether my hon. Friend will look at how we might strengthen the position when we get to Report stage.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I will respond to him and then perhaps I will have answered the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North wanted to ask. It is right that the regulator must have the right powers in place to deal with breaches of its standards. With regard to competence and conduct, the Bill enables the regulator to require providers to produce and implement a performance improvement plan to be approved by the regulator. If a provider fails to implement a plan, the regulator can issue an enforcement notice and levy an unlimited fine if that notice is not complied with. So the regulator will have teeth to ensure the kind of conduct that we expect. I hope that that answers the question from one hon. Friend.
Eddie Hughes
Anyone who has listened to the Grenfell Tower inquiry—especially the podcast, which provides a great summary of the challenges that were faced—will know that a number of tenants encountered members of staff who simply were not appropriately qualified to carry out their role. As a result, the tenants did not get the experience, support and help that they so rightly deserved. So, while I fully appreciate that it is appropriate to recruit for aptitude—this is a vocational area for many—it is incredibly appropriate to make sure that staff are trained for their role.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His expertise on this matter is welcome to all of us, and I thank him for all the work that he did as Minister on this really important body of work. He is right. That is why we have taken this away and are looking at what more we can do around professional qualifications, without that risk of reclassification. I hope that, following Committee stage, I will be able to report on what progress we have made before we reach Report stage.
It is important that we get this process right. We will continue the dialogue that we have already started with key stakeholders such as Grenfell United, Shelter and the CIH before we issue a statutory consultation on the direction itself. The regulator will then also consult on its draft standard before it comes into force. This Committee can be assured of our intent to take on board fully the views of both tenants and providers in developing the way forward. I have already spoken a little about compliance and sanctions if standards are not complied with, so I will leave that point there.
To summarise, the Government’s ambition is to build an empathetic, qualified and skilled social housing workforce. We want to bring about a wholesale organisational and cultural change, which we all recognise is desperately needed. We remain firm in our belief that our approach and the clause will deliver the professionalisation of the social housing sector, but we will of course continue to explore options for qualification requirements that would not trigger reclassification and would deliver the right outcomes for tenants. I commend the clause to the Committee and, on the basis of what I have outlined, I ask the shadow Minister not to move his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
We welcome the concession made by the Government in the other place on professional training and qualifications, and the resulting inclusion of the clause in the Bill. However, if we are to be certain that this legislation will expedite the professionalisation of the sector, we are absolutely convinced that the Government need to go still further.
As the Minister said, the clause amends section 194 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 by adding a proposed new section allowing the regulator to set regulatory standards on the competence and conduct of social housing managers, and making it clear that such standards may require providers to comply with specified rules relating to knowledge, skills and experience. However, the clause as drafted includes no requirement for those involved in the management of social housing to meet objective professional standards. We therefore agree with, among others, Grenfell United and Shelter, that it therefore risks introducing an insufficiently high bar for registered providers in respect of the professional training that they implement.
New clause 4 seeks to strengthen the Bill in relation to professionalisation by amending section 217 of the 2008 Act, concerning accreditation, to require managers of social housing to have appropriate objective qualifications and expertise.
Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
On professional qualifications, I completely understand that we need to have properly qualified people overseeing those in social housing and giving them support, but most professions—whether lawyers, accountants, firemen or police—have a professional body. What professional body does the hon. Gentleman propose should be behind social housing, because I do not think that there is one, is there?
Matthew Pennycook
I will touch on that. The Chartered Institute of Housing does a considerable amount of work in this area. For reasons I will come on to, however, the review that it is undertaking perhaps does not go as far as we need in the ways in which we think this legislation must be amended to drive professionalisation along the lines that many groups are calling for.
As I was saying, we think it is vital that those requirements should be put on the face of the Bill. As a result of the progressive residualisation of social housing over the past 40 years, it is now overwhelmingly let to those most in need. According to the latest English housing survey data, half of social renters are in the lowest income quintile, compared with 22% of private renters and 12% of owners; more than half of all households in such tenure have one or more members with a long-term illness or disability; and more than a quarter are 65 or over. We also know—this is certainly the case from my own post bag—that many social tenants find themselves facing intimidation by criminal gangs, domestic abuse and racial harassment, and that a minority are in desperate need of urgent moves to escape serious youth violence. We will return to that point when we debate new clause 1 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood.
As a result of frequently having little voice or power, and because there is a chronic shortage of social housing, tenants have few if any options to move if they receive an unprofessional service from their landlord. They face significant barriers when it comes to challenging poor conditions. We therefore must do more to ensure that those managing the homes of social tenants are properly qualified to do so and that they have undergone the necessary training, for example in anti-discriminatory and anti-oppressive practice, to ensure that they are treating tenants fairly and providing them with the necessary support. We rightly expect those working in other frontline services, such as education and social care, to have the professional qualifications and training necessary to carry out their work effectively, and to undergo continuous professional development. We should expect no less for those managing social homes.
Bob Blackman
The shadow Minister is applying quite a long list of prescriptions, and I think Members on both sides of the Committee would probably agree with much of what he is saying. One of the problems with putting such provisions into the Bill is that they are very difficult to amend at a future time. I accept that what he is proposing now is that regulations “may” be made; I wonder whether a better approach might be for a Government amendment to set out that regulations may be made. The prescription he has put in his new clause could then be made under regulation and, therefore, be easier to amend in the event that matters change. Otherwise, we would have to introduce primary legislation.
Matthew Pennycook
I do not want to engage the hon. Member in a prolonged discussion about “may” and “must”—we had enough of that with his private Member’s Bill. We are open to a discussion about how to proceed, but what we need at this stage is a commitment from the Minister that the Government are going to move on objective professional qualifications and training, rather than leaving the Bill as is. If that requires regulations to be moved in due course, we would be open to that, but let us see what the Government bring back on Report.
We will press our new clause to a vote at the appropriate moment to underscore how strongly we feel that this is one of the areas on which the Government must move by Report stage, to ensure that the legislation is as robust as it can possibly be.
Dehenna Davison
I will keep this brief. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for outlining his concerns, which were mentioned on Second Reading. The commitment I can give is that we are seriously looking at the issue and seeing how far we can go without that risk of reclassification. I appreciate his reasoning behind wanting to push the new clause to a vote; I hope in the meantime that he will be inclined to change his mind before we get to that point.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 21 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 22
Standards relating to information and transparency
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 9—Application of Freedom of Information Act 2000 to registered providers—
“(1) Within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, the Secretary of State must by order designate registered providers of social housing as public authorities for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.”
This new clause would bring registered providers of social housing within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Dehenna Davison
It is essential that social housing tenants should be able to access relevant information about their landlords and their homes. Greater transparency will empower tenants and drive providers to improve service delivery. Clause 22 extends the standard-setting powers of the Regulator of Social Housing to cover information and transparency. The clause will enable the regulator to deliver key social housing White Paper commitments, including setting standards relating to the new access to information scheme. We also expect information and transparency standards to include requirements for registered providers to share information on how landlords spend their income, executive pay and breaches of the standards.
When a provider is failing to meet these standards, the clause ensures that the regulator can take strong enforcement steps, including penalties, compensation and requiring changes in the management of the provider. Extending the regulator’s power to set regulatory standards to include standards on information and transparency will empower tenants to hold their landlord to account and strengthen overall consumer regulation.
New clause 9 seeks to require the Secretary of State to extend the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to registered providers of social housing, via statutory instrument, within six months of Royal Assent. I do not believe the amendment is necessary or advisable. The Government have worked closely with stakeholders to agree plans to deliver the access to information scheme for tenants of housing associations and other private registered providers, as promised in the social housing White Paper.
The new scheme will enable tenants of private registered providers and their representatives to request information from their landlords in a way similar to that available under the 2000 Act. It will also impose similar obligations on private registered providers. Tenants of private registered providers will be able to request information from their landlord on anything relating to the management of their homes. The new scheme will be integrated into the regulatory environment, tailored to the needs of tenants, and enforced as part of the regulator’s consumer standards.
If a tenant is unhappy with how a landlord has dealt with their request for information, they will be able to take their complaint to the housing ombudsman. The process will be the same as for other complaints, ensuring ease of use and accessibility for tenants. The ombudsman also has a strong understanding of the social tenant and landlord relationship, and an established relationship with the Regulator of Social Housing. Additionally, local authority providers, which would fall under the new clause, are already subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as public bodies.
Finally, extending freedom of information to registered providers would increase the level of Government control exercised over the sector. We are back to the potential argument around reclassification, which we are keen to avoid. The access to information scheme that we have laid out does not carry the same reclassification risk. On that basis, although I commend the excellent clause, I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to consider not pressing his new clause to a vote.
Matthew Pennycook
At the outset, I should thank the Greater Manchester Law Centre for its support in drafting the new clause, the purpose of which is to probe the Government’s rationale for not using the Bill to bring registered providers of social housing within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act—other than local authorities, which, as the Minister rightly said, are already subject to it—and to press the Government to reconsider.
As the Minister is no doubt aware, this matter has been a perennial cause of concern. In 2011, the coalition Government announced that they would consult housing associations on bringing them within the scope of the Act; however, no further action was taken—almost certainly as a result of housing associations objecting. The issue resurfaced in the wake of the Grenfell Tower fire as a result of the Information Commissioner’s Office reporting to Parliament that it had experienced difficulties in accessing information relating to social housing and to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation because the information was not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. The Information Commissioner at the time, Elizabeth Denham, made it clear that
“housing Associations are currently not subject to Freedom of Information Act because the Act does not designate them as public bodies. It is clear to me that this is a significant gap in the public’s right to know”.
We believe that she was right to highlight that gap, which remains to this day.
It is not simply that the public do not enjoy rights that they have never had; in the cases of housing associations that have had local authority stock transferred to their management, tenants and the public have lost freedom of information rights that they previously enjoyed when those homes were under local authority control. As I expected, the Minister has made the case that the issues are addressed by the provisions in clause 22 relating to information and transparency; however, those provisions are limited both in scope and specificity in terms of who may request the disclosure of information—it would appear that only tenants themselves have access to it, while journalists and others would not—and how the scheme will operate in practice.
Eddie Hughes
Perhaps the Minister can clarify this, but I understood that it was not just tenants, but people who were acting on their behalf. Can we confirm that? [Interruption.]
The Chair
Order. There is a Division in the House, so we will have to break for 15 minutes or so. We will resume as quickly as people can get back.
Matthew Pennycook
Before we suspended, the hon. Member for Walsall North pressed me on what he felt was an inaccuracy in my statement that journalists were not covered by the provisions. The Division has given me a chance to look at both the Bill and the explanatory notes. Unless he can find one, I see no mention of tenants or their representatives in the Bill. The provision in question, on page 18 of the Bill, merely states:
“the provision of information to their tenants of social housing”.
If it is the case that tenant representatives, including a broad definition of what that entails—including journalists—can access the information in question, that would be welcome.
However, not only is clause 22 limited to tenants themselves, but it provides no guarantees that an information and transparency scheme will be established. All it specifies is that the regulator “may set standards” for RPs in relation to those matters.
Although we can debate the efficacy of clause 22 in terms of whether the regulator’s ability to set standards relating to the provision of information and transparency will significantly increase RP accountability, it is clear that the clause does not provide for anything akin to that facilitated by the freedom of information regime. As the Information Commissioner’s Office put it, on welcoming the commitment to provide some information to tenants, the scope of the proposed access to information scheme
“appears narrower than FOI in a number of significant ways”.
The arguments against bringing housing associations within the Bill’s scope have been that it would inevitably result in reclassification by the Office for National Statistics and that RPs would be overwhelmed with FOI requests. However, the Scottish Government’s decision to extend coverage of Scotland’s freedom of information legislation to registered social landlords there, following a 2017 consultation—despite opposition from a majority of the housing associations affected—appears to undermine both those counter-arguments. A 2021 report by the Scottish Information Commissioner following the changes made there found that social landlords had responded well to being covered by the legislation, with a significant majority of organisations surveyed making it clear that they were responding effectively, were publishing more information as a result of FOI and were not overwhelmed with requests, with 57% reporting a small impact on staff workload. Importantly, despite being subject to the Freedom of Information Act, Scottish providers remain classified as private non-financial corporations by the ONS.
There are numerous examples from across the country of RPs either ignoring or refusing outright to respond to reasonable requests from tenants for information on a range of issues, including fire safety and health hazards, on the basis that they are not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I note what the Minister said about tenants’ ability to take such concerns to the housing ombudsman, but we have already discussed what a lengthy and time-consuming process that is. Given that local authority RPs are already covered by FOI, we cannot understand why non-local authority RPs are not brought within the scope of that Act. Given that one of the central aims of the White Paper and the Bill is to engender a culture of transparency and accountability among RPs and that clause 22 is far narrower in scope than FOI, we believe it would be beneficial to the public if housing associations that are not publicly owned are brought within the scope of the 2000 Act. The UK Information Commissioner’s Office agrees, stating as recently as January 2022:
“The ICO believes that housing associations that provide social housing should be covered by the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in the same way as housing provided by local authorities. We believe access to information laws should remain relevant and appropriate to how public services are delivered.”
I hope that the Minister has listened carefully to the arguments about the new clause, in particular the Scottish experience, and I look forward to her response. I will not press the new clause to a Division at this stage. Depending on her reply, we may return to it on Report.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for outlining his case so coherently. I go back to points that I made earlier. On the point about tenant representatives, it is certainly the intent that they will be able to make those requests on behalf of tenants. In some cases, that could include journalists—the hon. Member specifically commented on them. I hope that provides some assurance about intent. I am grateful to the hon. Member for not pressing the new clause to a Division for now.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 24
Standards relating to energy demand
The Chair
The Government indicated an intention to vote against the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill by tabling an amendment to leave out the clause.
Matthew Pennycook
The proposed tenant satisfaction measures scheme, as outlined in the social housing White Paper and underpinned by the provisions in the clause, has the potential to be an extremely useful tool for tenants, both in gaining a better understanding of their landlords’ performance and in providing feedback that can assist in driving up standards. We support it.
Given the diversity of providers across the social housing sector, however, a sufficient degree of standardisation of the collecting, processing and presenting of the information relating to the new tenant satisfaction measures is crucial. If steps are not taken to ensure a prescribed collection method for obtaining the information in question so that, when published, it allows for rigorous like-for-like comparison, the obvious risk is that the TSM scheme will struggle to facilitate an accurate and fair comparison of performance between RPs, and its use as a means of informing regulation will be compromised. The regulator itself has acknowledged the potential limitations of the scheme, owing to the variation in methods of data collection and sampling across different organisations.
The question, therefore, is what might be done to address those potential pitfalls to ensure that the TSM scheme works as effectively as it can. I will be grateful if the Minister could give us a sense of how the Government believe that a degree of standardisation might be imposed upon the TSM process to facilitate an accurate and fair comparison of performance between providers. Also, she might ask her officials to consider whether it would be appropriate for the Government to commit to asking the regulator to review the method of collecting, processing and presenting the information in question within a certain timeframe, following any directions issued under proposed new section 198C coming into effect.
Dehenna Davison
I will write to the shadow Minister following our sitting to give him further clarity about the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 28
Surveys
Dehenna Davison
I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 28, page 22, leave out lines 3 to 8 and insert—
“(8) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (7) may be left in a place on the premises until the survey has been carried out provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of carrying out the survey and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendments 5 to 11.
Clause stand part.
Dehenna Davison
The regulator has an existing power to arrange for a survey of a premises where it suspects that a landlord may be failing to maintain the premises in accordance with its standards. The clause takes steps to ensure that those important surveys can take place more promptly by reducing the notice period required from 28 days for landlords and seven days for tenants to 48 hours for both parties. These are minimum requirements, and in the majority of cases the regulator would seek to give more than the minimum notice period, but the changes ensure that the regulator can act quickly in the most serious cases.
The clause also includes a power for the regulator to seek a warrant for entry when necessary, meaning that surveys can take place when required to ensure that the regulator can identify problems and take appropriate action. In the most serious cases, following a survey the regulator will be able to arrange for emergency remedial action to take place, as set out under clause 31, to address an imminent risk to the health and safety of tenants if the provider fails to take action required by the regulator.
Committee members may be aware that we have stipulated in the Bill that equipment or materials can be left on the premises only if it is necessary for the survey or emergency remedial action to go ahead, or otherwise if that does not significantly impair an occupier when using the premises.
Government amendments 4 to 11 are common-sense amendments designed to ensure that regulatory activities do not unnecessarily obstruct or inconvenience residents of social housing. Our changes are slight and intend to strengthen the Bill’s provisions to the benefit of tenants. They require that even if it is necessary to leave equipment or materials on the premises for surveys or emergency remedial action, they must not be left in a way that causes significant inconvenience to occupiers if they can be left in another place where this inconvenience does not occur. This means that thought must be given to minimising the impact of a survey or works on occupiers, including the impact on a tenant’s use of the common parts.
Those small, technical changes are intended to ensure that a survey or emergency remedial action can be conducted, but in such a way that is mindful of the impact on tenants and courteous to them. I commend the amendments to the Committee.
Amendment 4 agreed to.
Amendments made: 5, in clause 28, page 22, line 8, at end insert—
“(9) Where the premises include common parts of a building, references in subsection (8) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.
(10) In this section, “common parts”, in relation to a building, includes the structure and exterior of that building and any common facilities provided (whether or not in the building) for persons who occupy the building.”
Where a survey is carried out on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the survey is carried out.
Amendment 6, in clause 28, page 22, leave out lines 31 to 36 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4) may be left in a place on the premises until the survey has been carried out provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of carrying out the survey and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 7, in clause 28, page 22, line 36, at end insert—
“(5A) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 199A), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”—(Dehenna Davison.)
Where a survey is carried out on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the survey is carried out.
Clause 28, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 29
Inspection plan
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 16, in clause 29, page 23, line 36, leave out lines 36 to 39 and insert—
“(a) the inspection of every registered provider within four years of the commencement of this Act,
(b) the inspection of every registered provider at intervals of no longer than four years thereafter, and”.
This amendment would ensure that the regulator is required to carry out regular inspections of every registered provider.
Matthew Pennycook
We strongly support the introduction of routine inspections of social landlords. We therefore welcome clause 29. I would like to take the opportunity once again to commend the efforts of Lord Best in the other place and the perseverance of Grenfell United, which ensured that the Bill was strengthened.
Routine inspections of social housing landlords must be central to the new consumer regulatory regime introduced by the Bill if tenants are to have confidence that landlords will be monitored appropriately and deterred from risking breaches that could undermine health and wellbeing. The welcome removal of the serious detriment test in its entirety through the provisions in clause 26 legally allows the regulator to adopt a proactive approach to monitoring and enforcing consumer standards.
In our view, such an approach should be premised on inspections that are at short notice, rigorous, thorough and that include direct engagement with tenants who can highlight issues of concern, thereby helping the regulator determine whether a given provider is meeting the enhanced consumer standards introduced by the Bill.
Clause 29 amends section 201 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, adding a new section 201A to require the regulator to make, and take appropriate steps to implement, a plan for carrying out inspections. The plan must be published, kept under review, and revised or replaced where appropriate. However, the nature of the plan and issues such as the types of RPs that should be subject to regular inspections, the frequency of those inspections, and the circumstances in which RPs should be subject to ad hoc inspections are not prescribed on the face of the Bill, instead being left to the regulator to determine in due course.
While we recognise the need for the regulator to have a significant degree of discretion when it comes to formulating the inspections plan, we believe that the Bill should be more prescriptive in two important respects. First, we believe it is essential that the Bill make clear that all RPs, large or small, will be subject to inspections by the regulator. Secondly, we believe it is essential that the Bill ensures that each RP will be subject to routine inspections.
Amendment 16 seeks to achieve both those objectives by specifying which landlords will be inspected and the maximum duration of time between each inspection they are subject to. It does so by replacing proposed new section 201A(1)(a) and (b) of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, as inserted by clause 29—for those following in the Bill, that is lines 36 to 39 on page 23—with a requirement that every RP must be inspected within four years of the commencement of the Act and then inspected at intervals of no longer than four years thereafter.
We believe it is entirely reasonable to detail in the Bill the minimum expectations for the regulator’s inspections plan. The policy paper published alongside the Bill in June made clear that it would enable Ofsted-style inspections of social housing providers by the regulator. The Education Act 2005 that introduced those inspections specified that every school in England would be subject to them and that they would be inspected on a routine basis at least once every three years. Amendment 16 takes that arrangement and applies it to RPs, subject to the enhanced consumer standards introduced by the Bill.
The amendment deliberately does not specify the precise frequency of inspections, merely requiring that they take place at least once every four years—the timeframe proposed by the Government in their 2020 White Paper in relation to the largest landlords. In doing so, the amendment would allow the regulator to determine the precise frequency and nature of individual inspections based on the size of the landlord and its risk profile as determined by means of desktop review.
We believe amendment 16 would preserve the regulator’s operational independence and flexibility when it comes to formulating and implementing the inspections plan now required by clause 29, while strengthening the clause to ensure that key minimum expectations are specified and that tenants can have real confidence in the new inspections regime as a result. I hope the Minister will consider accepting it.
Dehenna Davison
Clause 29 commits the regulator to the delivery of regular inspections by providing it with a duty to publish, and take reasonable steps to implement, a plan for regular inspections. The clause will reinforce the regulator’s commitment to deliver the policy objective set by the social housing White Paper, while ensuring the regulator has the freedom to design the inspections regime following engagement with the sector.
As members of the Committee know, a key part of our efforts to drive consumer standards is the introduction of routine inspections by the regulator for the largest landlords. Inspections will help the regulator to hold landlords to account and intervene where necessary, ultimately driving up the quality of homes and services provided to tenants. That measure is integral to the success of the proactive consumer regime facilitated by the Bill.
However, I cannot accept amendment 16, which seeks to introduce a specific duty for the regulator to conduct inspections of all RPs every four years. As I have said, clause 29 puts the Government and the regulator’s shared commitment to inspections into legislation, through requiring the regulator to publish and take reasonable steps to implement an inspections plan. The clause also ensures that the regulator maintains a level of operational flexibility to allow it to respond on a risk basis to significant developments in the sector.
The regulator is committed to developing a robust approach to inspections, and continues to develop the details of how it will manage consumer inspections via a process of targeted engagement with the sector and social housing tenants. I do not feel that we should bind the regulator’s hands by putting into legislation detailed requirements about inspections that would pre-empt the work it is currently undertaking.
The system of inspections will be based on a risk profile to ensure that those landlords at greatest risk of failing, or where failure might have the greatest impact on tenants, are subject to greater oversight. As part of that provision, the regulator will aim to inspect landlords with more than 1,000 homes every four years. We will, of course, hold the regulator to account to deliver and implement its inspections plan, and the regulator continues to be accountable to Parliament for the delivery of its statutory objectives.
Bob Blackman
Clearly, the providers with the most complaints against them to the regulator will be placed most at risk. In my view, some could be subject to an annual inspection, while providers that are doing a really good job and do not warrant an inspection could be left, although, clearly, if there were complaints, the inspection could be brought forward. Is that my hon. Friend’s understanding of how this will work? Obviously, the regulator will have limited resources to ensure that standards are improved.
Dehenna Davison
Absolutely—this is all about driving up standards. The plan is that the regulator will aim to inspect landlords with over 1,000 homes at least every four years, and those at highest risk could be subject to more frequent inspections. As I say, the regulator is doing detailed work to see how best to implement the measure, and it is important that we let it get on with that work before putting anything into the Bill. On that basis, I hope that the shadow Minister will withdraw the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
I rise to support amendment 16 on the basis of 17 years’ experience of Ofsted. We know that unless a school knows that Ofsted is coming, problems begin. A substantial proportion of outstanding schools that were not inspected for five years have recently been graded as needing improvement. Organisations need to know that somebody is coming, and coming in a reasonable time.
I simply do not understand why we would oppose registered providers being inspected once every four years, or why we would choose to inspect large housing associations but not smaller ones. Are housing associations with 1,000 tenants or fewer not just as susceptible to poor standards, and are those residents not entitled to live under the same inspection regime?
If regulation just requires looking at the paperwork, things can be made to look brilliant. Who here has not been told by their housing provider that it does not have a problem because 80% of tenants say that its repairs system is fantastic? When we dig into the detail, we appreciate how few people respond to customer service requests and just how hard some of our constituents find it to complain or get themselves heard. We need a clear and strong inspection regime.
Eddie Hughes
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. That is why we will do customer satisfaction surveys that have been agreed with the regulator. The format has been agreed. We will be able to compare housing associations and their relative performance in order to drill down and improve that performance. I understand her point, but the Government are making significant strides with the regulator to try to drive up customer and tenant engagement to ensure that we are genuinely getting the opinion of the majority, rather than a minority.
Siobhain McDonagh
That is not possible. We cannot construct a customer survey as emphatic or successful as that, because we have a broad span of residents and tenants, with different lives that determine whether they fill in forms. We as politicians, and people who deliver leaflets and get others to do so on our behalf, know that some people will always respond and others never will, even if, objectively speaking, they need to do so.
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
Surely, if a tenant is aggrieved with the process, they are likely to fill in the survey response.
Siobhain McDonagh
I have been an MP for 25 years and a member of the Labour party for 42 years. I am really interested in political communication and getting people to respond. I have to tell the hon. Member that a substantial number of people will never respond, and it is often those who live in the most dire circumstances. If we are serious about improving standards, we need the most structured inspection system that we can afford—I appreciate that it is public money.
I do not deny that anything done in the Bill is a step forward and an improvement, but if we are going to spend public money on behalf of some of our most vulnerable constituents, we want to make it the best-spent money that we can. Let us get it right. We are not starting with a clean piece of paper; we are starting with 17 years of experience with Ofsted and years of experience with the Care Quality Commission. We know a great deal about how inspection regimes work.
Dehenna Davison
On the point about making sure we get the system right, the hon. Lady mentioned public funds, which is clearly a crucial issue. That is precisely why the regime is being designed so that those who are most at risk will be inspected more frequently. That includes not just larger landlords but smaller landlords where there is a clear indication of issues that have been found previously. Inspections can also be done on a more reactive basis. If a report goes to the regulator to suggest that there is a specific issue with a smaller landlord, the risk profile will be there and the landlord could be inspected much more frequently.
Siobhain McDonagh
I am glad that there will be reactive inspections. I am not suggesting that there should not be. What I am saying is that, along with reactive inspections, there should be a regular and rigid routine of inspections. That way, everybody knows that they will have an inspection once during a four-year period. That does not seem to me to be over-regulation, certainly given recent events in social housing stock.
Matthew Pennycook
I have to say that I am slightly disappointed with the Minister’s speech. I am not convinced by her arguments. There is clearly a debate here about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill as to the regulator’s functions. I am convinced that we need to be slightly more prescriptive. I say that for a couple of reasons.
First, my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden made a good point on the size of providers. It has certainly been my experience that some of the smaller providers are the most egregious when it comes to standards, partly because they do not face the reputational risk, or the extent of investigations by Members of Parliament or others into their activities, that some of the larger providers do. I do not think the size of providers should play a part in who is inspected.
We think it is important that all providers are inspected within the four-year period. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend: it is not enough to base a reactive inspections regime, to the extent that that is a part of the process provided by the clause, on surveys or desktop studies alone. We do not leave schools out of the Ofsted inspections process because we are not getting complaints about them. We inspected all schools routinely within a certain period.
Secondly, to the extent that the amendment is prescriptive, I do not think that it is particularly onerous on the regulator. All we are asking for is an inspection within four years of the Bill receiving Royal Assent and every four years thereafter. That four-year timeframe was proposed by the Government in their White Paper; we did not pluck it out of thin air. I think it is entirely reasonable to ask for an inspections regime to take place on that basis. If the regulator needs the resources to carry out those inspections, let us ensure that it has them. However, I struggle to understand why the Government do not feel they can add an element of prescription to the inspections plan in the way that amendment 16 proposes. We will therefore press the amendment to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Matthew Pennycook
We welcome the introduction of performance improvement plans as a sensible measure to drive up standards where registered providers are falling short. I would, however, like to raise a few issues in relation to how these plans will work in practice.
We note that the tenant is provided with a copy of the performance improvement plan, which is drawn up where a registered provider has failed to reach a statutory standard for properties under their responsibility, only if the tenant makes a written request for one. Given the strong case for ensuring that all affected tenants know how their landlord is performing and what decisions they are making, we question whether that is sufficient. We note that this matter was also explored during Committee stage in the other place.
In the material it supplied in relation to consideration of the Bill, the Chartered Institute of Housing argued:
“Consideration should be given as to how tenants will be alerted should any poor performance lead to the regulator requiring a performance improvement plan”.
The Local Government Association has also put on record its desire to see the publication of guidance on the regulator’s requirements and timescales for preparing and implementing performance improvement plans.
In the light of these points, I hope the Minister could clarify, either today or in writing—I am happy to take another letter from her—the operation of the provisions in this clause in relation to the following. First, how will tenants be notified if the poor performance of their registered provider leads to the regulator initiating the process of preparing an improvement plan? Will tenants, for example, have the chance to input their views about the problems identified and the measures specified for improvement in these plans?
Secondly, what is the rationale for specifying that tenants can only request a copy of the plan if they require one, rather than being provided with the plan as a matter of course along with any information about what it is, why it came about and what changes they can expect to see as a result—an arrangement that strikes us as more in keeping with the aims outlined in the Government White Paper? Thirdly, is the Minister able to tell us when the guidance on the regulator’s requirements and timescales for preparing and implementing performance improvement plans will be published? Lastly, does the Minister expect that performance improvement plans will be used as a first resort to give underperforming landlords the chance to improve before the regulator considers more punitive measures?
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his questions. I will follow up in writing and provide some more clarity. Where there is a performance improvement plan in place, the provider is required to publish that, so it will be freely available to tenants and, indeed, to members of the public.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 31
Emergency remedial action
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 31, page 27, line 28, leave out “may” and insert “must”.
This amendment would ensure that emergency remedial action takes place on every occasion where the conditions in subsections (2) to (4) of section 225B inserted by clause 31, are met rather than being discretionary.
Matthew Pennycook
Amendment 17, in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North, is extremely straightforward, and I will therefore be very brief in speaking to it.
Clause 31 relates to emergency remedial action. It amends section 225 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, adding new sections 225A to 225H, which enable the regulator to arrange for an authorised person to take emergency remedial action in instances where a tenant faces an imminent health and safety risk. We strongly support it. The purpose of amendment 17 is simply to ensure that emergency repairs of the kind proposed must take place, rather than may take place—with apologies to the hon. Member for Harrow East, we return to the “may” and “must” distinction—on every occasion where the relevant conditions have been met.
It is worth briefly touching on what those conditions—as set out in proposed new section 225B(2) to (4)—are, because they are stringent, which is why we think that the regulator should be required to act in all instances. For the premises of a social housing provider to be considered appropriate for possible emergency remedial action under clause 31, a survey of its condition must have been completed; the premises must have been found to be improperly maintained; its condition has to have been found to cause an imminent risk of serious harm to the health or safety of the tenants who reside in it or neighbouring residents; and the provider has to have failed to comply with an enforcement notice requiring it to take action to bring the premises up to standard.
Our contention is that any premises managed by any provider found to have satisfied all those tests should automatically receive emergency repairs, rather than merely be considered for them. As such, we think the replacement of the offending “may” with a “must” is vital. I hope the Minister will give the issue considered thought.
Dehenna Davison
It is the responsibility of every registered provider of social housing to ensure that they provide safe and decent housing to their tenants. That means maintaining properties in accordance with the Regulator of Social Housing’s standards and addressing problems issues quickly where problems are identified.
Where a provider cannot or will not address issues that risk the health and safety of tenants, it is essential that the regulator can act. The clause therefore allows the regulator to authorise persons to enter a property and conduct emergency remedial works in cases where failings risk causing serious harm to tenants. For the regulator to do so, it must first conduct a survey of the premises, be satisfied that the provider has failed to maintain the premises in accordance with relevant standards and that the failure poses a serious health and safety risk, and give an enforcement notice requiring those failures to be addressed. If those grounds are met, the regulator may step in and take emergency remedial action. The amendment moved by the shadow Minister would mean that the regulator must take emergency remedial action when the relevant grounds are met.
I have made it clear several times that nothing is more important to the Government than keeping people safe in their homes. Sadly, however, I cannot accept the amendment, because we feel it is essential that the regulator retains the independence and flexibility to determine where it is appropriate to use the power set out in the clause. That reflects regulatory best practice, whereby the regulator has the operational independence to regulate the sector effectively by deciding which of its enforcement powers to use in any given case.
Matthew Pennycook
If a provider has failed all the tests in the clause, what other powers might the regulator use if it did not feel that emergency remedial action was necessary? What other things might it do to address a series of failings that triggered its ability to act along the lines we have discussed?
Dehenna Davison
We have talked, for example, about enforcement notices and possible fines, which are clearly measures available to the regulator. One of the things that we are concerned about at this stage—this has been drawn out at various points today—is binding the hands of the regulator. We do not want to commit it to one course of action.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that we are providing the framework for the regulator? As politicians, we should not be telling it how to do its job. If we make the regulations and powers strong enough and give the regulator teeth, whether the word is “may” or “must” becomes irrelevant, because it will take action anyway.
Dehenna Davison
My hon. Friend makes the point extremely well and much more strongly than I did. She is absolutely right. We are setting out the framework of what the regulator can use and will have access to. It will have a full suite of powers available to ensure that it is looking out for tenants and that they are in the best possible housing.
To summarise, we do not wish to bind the hands of the regulator too stringently. We want to give it a suite of powers and the operational independence to choose which powers to use. On that basis, I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Matthew Pennycook
I appreciate the Minister’s concern about binding the regulator too rigidly. I push back slightly against the point made by the hon. Member for Erewash: I think it is wrong to say—the experience of recent years shows this—that just because we give a regulator a power, it necessarily uses it, and certainly not in a proactive way. At this stage, however, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: 8, in clause 31, page 29, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 6 on page 30 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4)(b) may be left in a place on the premises until the emergency remedial action has been taken provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of taking the emergency remedial action and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 9, in clause 31, page 30, line 6, at end insert—
“(6) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 225C), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”
Where emergency remedial action is taken on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the work is carried out.
Amendment 10, in clause 31, page 30, leave out lines 29 to 36 and insert—
“(5) Equipment or materials taken onto premises by virtue of subsection (4) may be left in a place on the premises until the emergency remedial action has been taken provided that—
(a) leaving the equipment or the materials in that place does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises, or
(b) leaving the equipment or the materials on the premises is necessary for the purposes of taking the emergency remedial action and it is not possible to leave it or them in a place that does not significantly impair the ability of an occupier to use the premises.”
This adjusts the power to leave equipment etc on premises so that it can only be left in a place that significantly impairs the ability of occupiers to use the premises if there is no other place on the premises it can be left which doesn’t impair such use.
Amendment 11, in clause 31, page 30, line 36, at end insert—
“(5A) Where the premises include common parts of a building (as defined in section 225C), references in subsection (5) to the ability of an occupier to use the premises include the ability of an occupier of a dwelling that has use of the common parts to use those parts or the dwelling.”—(Dehenna Davison.)
Where emergency remedial action is taken on premises which include common parts of a building this amendment requires the effect on the ability of occupiers to use their dwellings and the common parts to be considered in determining whether equipment or materials can be left on the premises while the work is carried out.
Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 32 to 35 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Clauses 36 to 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 4 agreed to.
Clauses 39 and 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Clauses 41 to 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 44
Short title
Amendment made: 12, in clause 44, page 37, line 10, leave out subsection (2).—(Dehenna Davison.)
This amendment removes the privilege amendment inserted by the Lords.
Clause 44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Regulator duty to ensure continuity of secure tenancy in cases of threat to safety
“(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 92K insert—
‘92KA Duty to ensure continuity of secure tenancy in cases of threat to safety
(1) This section applies where—
(a) a registered provider of social housing has granted a secure tenancy of a dwelling-house in England to a person (whether as the sole tenant or a joint tenant), and
(b) the registered provider is satisfied that there is a threat to the personal safety of that person or of a member of that person’s household which means there is a risk to their personal safety unless they move.
(2) When subsection (1) applies, the regulator must ensure that the registered provider grants the tenant a new secure tenancy which is–
(a) on terms at least equivalent to the existing tenancy; and
(b) in a dwelling where the threat to the tenant’s personal safety does not apply.
(3) In this section, a “threat to personal safety” means any threat of violence, including in circumstances of—
(a) domestic abuse where the perpetrator does not live at the same address as the victim;
(b) an escalating neighbour dispute;
(c) a threat of targeted youth or gang violence.
(4) In assessing the threat under subsection (1)(b), the registered provider must act in accordance with any relevant police advice provided to–
(a) the registered provider,
(b) the tenant, or
(c) any member of the tenant’s household.
(5) In the event that a registered provider is unable to ensure the provision of an appropriate new secure tenancy pursuant to subsection (2), the regulator must ensure that the registered provider concerned co-operates with other registered providers to ensure an appropriate new secure tenancy is provided in a timely manner.’”—(Helen Hayes.)
This new clause would require the regulator to ensure that tenants whose safety is threatened are granted alternative accommodation by their housing provider on equivalent terms to their existing tenancy. It also requires the regulator to ensure that a provider which is unable to provide appropriate alternative accommodation co-operates with other providers to do so.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The new clause proposes a small but significant amendment to housing law to give additional security to social housing tenants who suffer the consequences of a threat of serious violence. The clause arises from my experience of representing my constituent Georgia, an NHS worker whose teenage son was threatened by gang members. Georgia was a housing association tenant who had lived in her home for nine years. She and her children were happy in their home, which she had recently redecorated—then her neighbours told her that one afternoon, while she was at work, they had heard loud banging on her door. Georgia eventually coaxed out of her son the information that he had witnessed something that local gang members had not wanted him to see, and they had come to her home looking for him. Georgia contacted the police, who told her that she had to move immediately for her family’s safety. She got in touch with her housing association, which told her that it was the council’s responsibility to provide emergency housing. The council placed Georgia and her children in temporary accommodation, which was in another borough, of poor quality and expensive. Georgia’s children did not have enough space, the flat was damp and dirty, it was hard for her children to do their homework and Georgia started to suffer from panic attacks that affected her work.
By the time that Georgia’s friend got in touch with me because she was worried about Georgia’s health and the wellbeing of her children, they had been in the temporary accommodation for six months, and her housing association had started the process of ending her tenancy because she was no longer living in her flat. The consequence of this, in the context of the UK’s housing crisis, would have been Georgia and her children being added to the statistics of homeless households, in temporary accommodation—potentially indefinitely—and at the bottom of the housing waiting list. No one should become homeless because their child is threatened.
In one London borough, 47 housing association tenants—at the time that I did this research, earlier this year—have required homelessness assistance from the council as a result of a threat of violence since 2019. Across the country, that means that thousands of families have had to leave their home each year, with their secure tenancies potentially at risk, on top of having to rebuild their lives in a new area. Homelessness is fundamentally destabilising, involving the loss of a sanctuary and a place in one’s community. It is deeply traumatising to have to make an emergency move because of a threat of violence and start again somewhere else. Our housing system should do everything possible to help families in such circumstances to make the transition to a new, permanent home as soon as possible to limit the harm caused by that threat.
I am delighted that the new clause has the support of both Shelter and the National Housing Federation. Shelter has also highlighted the case of Corey Junior Davis, or CJ, whose mum had asked her housing association for an urgent move after her son had been threatened and told her that he feared for his life. CJ’s mum had done everything possible to keep her son safe, including sending him to stay with relatives in a different area, but six months after her initial request, while they were still waiting for a move, CJ was shot and killed. I have also met several constituents who have sent their children away to keep them safe, because they know what the consequences of an emergency move to temporary accommodation would mean and they fear those consequences. That is not a choice that any parent should have to make.
The new clause would have the effect of requiring social landlords to protect the tenancy rights of secure tenants who have had to move due to a threat of serious violence, and would place a duty on social landlords to co-operate in a situation in which the tenant’s current landlord does not hold stock in an area that is considered safe for the tenant to move to. The threshold for these new duties to be triggered is that the police consider an emergency move to be necessary. Georgia was troubled by what had happened to her son, but it had not occurred to her that she would have to move out of the home that she loved until the police said that that was necessary to safeguard her child’s life. The group of people who would be protected by the new clause are not net additional demand on the social housing system; they are already secure social tenants, and the current social home that they are vacating would of course be returned to the landlord to be let to a new tenant.
There are many reasons why people become homeless due to no fault on their part. The clause will not protect all of them, but I am tabling this new clause for two reasons. The first is that the loss of a secure social tenancy, and effectively going to the bottom of an impossibly long housing waiting list, is far too high a price to pay for being the victim of a threat of violence. Georgia and her children suffered a grave detriment, simply because some violent gang members decided to threaten her son. The second is that serious violence is a scourge on the lives of all those that it affects. Far too many young people are living with the deep trauma of things that they have witnessed or friends that they have lost to knife or gun crime. We have a duty to do everything possible to stop the cycle of violence and the trauma that it causes in our communities. Supporting the victims of threats of violence to regain stability and move on with their lives is one way in which we can do that. Plunging victims into the unstable, often appalling, world of temporary accommodation has the opposite effect. We have the opportunity to change that.
Bob Blackman
Does my hon. Friend—I classify her as my hon. Friend because we have co-operated on so many other things—not accept that one of the problems is the shortage of suitable accommodation? I had a similar event in my constituency: a family was encouraged by the police to seek alternative accommodation, the registered social landlord said, “We don’t have any,” and naturally there was a problem as a result. Does she accept that providing suitable accommodation within a reasonable distance that allows children to go school, perhaps, and the tenant to get to work will be very challenging? I wonder whether she has considered that she is putting the onus on the registered social landlord to provide that. They may not operate within suitable areas, or may not be able to get co-operation from another registered social landlord. Would it not be better to have a range of potential organisations that might provide accommodation in what are, as she said, exceptional circumstances, rather than putting the onus on the registered social landlord?
Bob Blackman
I understand that, Sir Edward, but this is an important issue that merits further explanation.
Helen Hayes
I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. The new clause would impose a duty of co-operation on registered social landlords, which is designed to deal exactly with such a circumstance, where accommodation cannot be found that is safe for the tenant within the area in which the current landlord holds property. These are of course very challenging cases. I have certainly come across constituency cases in which the tenant simply cannot bring themselves to move from their home because the consequences are so dire for them, even when an offer has been made in an area that is considered by the police to be safe for them.
The new clause will not resolve every single circumstance, but in Georgia’s case, when I phoned a senior director in her large registered housing provider she was provided with a new tenancy in a safe borough, and signed that tenancy within a week. With greater will on the part of registered providers, and I believe that placing a duty would prompt that greater will, much more can be done to stop the cycle of violence in our communities.
Matthew Pennycook
I rise briefly to support my hon. Friend’s new clause, Georgia’s law. She made an extremely powerful case for it. I believe that it is sensible and proportionate, and will have a significant impact. I am sure that many hon. Members present have dealt with the kind of cases that she outlined—I certainly have. We are talking about a small but significant minority of tenants in England, but they find themselves, as the hon. Member for Harrow East said, in the exceptional circumstances of a police referral. All the new clause asks for is the protection of their tenancy rights, which should not be lost when they are forced to move, and greater co-operation between registered providers.
It is no surprise that the new clause is supported by organisations such as the NHF and Shelter. I think this is a very strong new clause, and I very much hope that the Government are minded to act on this issue, if not today then on Report. It is a crucial provision and will benefit the lives of many of our constituents.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood for tabling the new clause and for her engagement on the issue some weeks ago when we met to discuss it. I am grateful to her for raising the case of Georgia and her boys, and that of CJ. They are both horrendous cases, which give us all food for thought. I thank her for her words on the need to reduce violence more widely. That is something I am incredibly passionate about on a personal level too.
Before I begin, I want to clarify some technicalities. The new clause would provide protection where registered providers have granted their tenants secure tenancies. Secure tenancies are only granted by local authorities, so we will talk to the intention of the new clause, which is I believe around assured tenancies, as well as those in secure tenancies given by local authorities that are registered with the regulator.
We do not expect anyone who is threatened with violence to feel like they cannot move to safety for fear of losing their security of tenure. There are already a number of policies in place that seek to protect people at risk of violence who are in need of urgent rehousing. If a local authority grants a victim of domestic abuse, for example, a new tenancy for reasons connected with the abuse, it is required to give them a secure lifetime tenancy, rather than a tenancy with a fixed term.
Local authorities are also required to give people who need to move for their safety reasonable preference for social housing under section 166A(3) of the Housing Act 1996. Chapter 4 of the statutory guidance encourages local authorities to give additional preference or high priority to those fleeing violence, including intimidated witnesses, those escaping serious antisocial behaviour and people fleeing domestic violence.
By extension, those protections can be applied to private registered providers through duties to co-operate with their local authority in housing people with priority. Most private registered providers let 50% to 100% of their tenancies via nominations from their local authority. The current approach, which considers applicants for social housing on a case-by-case basis, and retains some flexibility, is the most appropriate means of determining whether a household should be granted a new tenancy.
The new clause would have the effect of requiring registered providers to relocate tenants and provide them with a new tenancy agreement. As we know, there are sadly many people with urgent housing needs who need to move immediately—for example, families who are living in conditions that pose a serious risk to their health. Going further than the existing protections by requiring registered providers to prioritise people fleeing violence above others would undermine some of the flexibilities given to housing providers to respond to the specific requirements of those in urgent need of social housing locally.
It is a fundamental right of the landlord to determine who they grant a tenancy to and who lives in their property. Retaining that right is key to registered providers being able to achieve their goal of creating safe and stable communities. It is therefore important to retain some flexibility for social landlords to decide their policy on allocations and who to house. That is integral to the effective functioning of the wider system.
Finally, as I am sure the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood will be aware, we are taking steps to reform tenancy law to protect the security of tenure for social tenants. After section 21 is removed, all tenancies given by private registered providers will have greater security of tenure.
On that basis, I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause. I am very willing to work with her to see what more can be done in this area to prevent any more cases like that of Georgia and her boys emerging.
Helen Hayes
I thank my hon. Friend the shadow Minister for his support for the new clause. I am grateful to the Minister for her engagement and discussions prior to Committee stage, and for her comments just now. I would be more than happy to work with the Minister to resolve any drafting clarifications and on the intention of the new clause.
The Minister mentioned existing protections, but surely if they were working as they should, cases such as Georgia’s would simply not be arising in their current number. When I first spoke to the local authority that covers the part of my constituency where Georgia was resident, it said that registered providers, housing associations, fall back on the local authority’s duty to provide emergency accommodation. It says that happens all the time, and that there is no regard for what happens to the tenant, given all the destabilisation that comes from a very long time in temporary accommodation.
Certainly in London, on paper the local authority has a duty to provide emergency accommodation and then to rehouse that resident. There is nothing in the priority need criteria, however, that would have given Georgia or her family any significant level of priority need—certainly not a sufficient level of priority, because the violence would not have been taken into account. She was housed with a roof over her head in another borough, where it was thought it was safe for her to be. As it turned out, it was not safe for her, but it was judged to be a borough distant from where the initial threat was made. There was nothing in her circumstances to give her a level of priority band above about band C. She was never going to be rehoused, and because of the consequence of a threat to her son, she went from being a secure tenant in a very stable situation to facing, realistically, an indefinite period of time in temporary accommodation.
I simply do not believe that that situation is fair, and the current system is not functioning as it should. I acknowledge that there are many people who need to move and that our housing system is absolutely full of people who have a pressing and real need to do so. We also have a duty as a society to prevent harm from serious violence, and that is why that additional protection is needed over and above the current protections in law outlined by the Minister. I am happy to withdraw the new clause, but it is my intention to re-table it on Report, when I will divide the House if there is insufficient evidence of progress, because I strongly believe that this needs to get on the statute book. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
“After section 217 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (accreditation) insert—
‘217A Professional qualifications and other requirements
(1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide that a person may not engage in the management of social housing or in specified work in relation to the provision of social housing unless he or she—
(a) has appropriate professional qualifications, or
(b) satisfies specified requirements.
(2) Regulations specifying work for the purpose of subsection (1) may make provision by reference to—
(a) one or more specified activities, or
(b) the circumstances in which activities are carried out.
(3) Regulations made under this section may, in particular, require—
(a) the possession of a specified qualification or experience of a specified kind,
(b) participation in or completion of a specified programme or course of training, or
(c) compliance with a specified condition.
(4) Regulations may make provision for any of the following matters—
(a) the establishment and continuance of a regulatory body;
(b) the keeping of a register of qualified social housing practitioners;
(c) requirements relating to education and training before and after qualification;
(d) standards of conduct and performance;
(e) discipline and fitness to practise;
(f) removal or suspension from registration or the imposition of conditions on registration;
(g) investigation and enforcement by or on behalf of the regulatory body, and appeals against the decisions or actions of the regulatory body.’”—(Matthew Pennycook.)
This new clause would require managers of social housing to have appropriate qualifications and expertise.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
This is, quite consciously, a probing amendment. As a result of the Regulation of Social Housing (Influence of Local Authorities) (England) Regulations 2017, the amount of local authority influence over private registered providers was reduced through the loss of local authority voting rights and restrictions on the percentage of officers a local authority may nominate as board members. The rationale for that reduction of influence was that it was necessary for the Government to relinquish sufficient control to allow the Office for National Statistics to reverse its 2015 classification of housing associations into the public sector following the Cameron Government’s decision to force registered providers to cut social sector rents by 1% a year for four years, with all that that entailed for the ability of social landlords to fund essential services, spend on repairs and maintenance, carry out retrofit work and build new social homes. If you recall, Sir Edward, it was done as a means of slashing the housing benefit bill.
Dehenna Davison
As the shadow Minister rightly outlined, new clause 5 seeks to ensure representation of tenants and councillors on the board of registered providers. While I agree with the sentiment behind the amendment—that we must ensure that the voice of social housing tenants is heard loud and clear in matters that affect them—I am afraid I must disagree that it is the best approach to take.
Tenants speak from their lived experience, which can bring a different and valuable perspective to that of other board members. They should be listened to at all stages of decision making. However, we do not think that mandating the inclusion of a tenant board member is necessarily the best way to achieve that aim.
Eddie Hughes
I have some experience of this, having been a councillor representative on the board of Walsall Housing Group at a time when it was a prescribed position. I distinctly remember a couple of instances prior to my being on the board when the Conservative spot was decided by random voting or people having been coerced into filling it. That seemed completely inappropriate.
When I became chair of the board of that group, we took a different view—to adopt a skills-based approach, determining that some of the skills would be best met by those who had experience of being a tenant. It was not prescribed that we were saving places for tenants; it just became a natural order of business that they would have the appropriate skills and experience to fill some of the vacancies on the board. Speaking from personal experience, too prescriptive an approach can sometimes lead to unintended consequences: people filling a place just because they need somebody under a certain heading to fill it.
Dehenna Davison
I thank my hon. Friend for setting out his own experience. It is an area the Government are very concerned about, and it comes back to the Committee’s debate today about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill.
Some housing providers already have tenants on boards, and they have been effective in championing residents’ voices, but this is not the case for everyone. Tenant board members are required to put their legal duties as a board member before their role as the representative for residents, which can cause confusion and conflict. Other structures can be just as successful and involve a more diverse range of tenants in decision making. That can range from formal consultations, focus groups and local events to appointed board observers and membership of panels focused on scrutiny, procurement or complaints that feed in at all stages of the decision-making process. We want to retain a flexible approach that promotes tenant empowerment and engagement for all tenants without forcing the statutory duties of a board member on a single individual.
The Regulator of Social Housing already sets standards for the outcomes that landlords must achieve in respect of tenant engagement. It will review, consult and update them as part of the new consumer regulation regime. The regulator will also ask landlords to demonstrate how they engage with tenants and require them to report on tenant satisfaction measures, as part of their assessment and inspection of landlords in the new regime. That is important because for the first time it makes tenants’ experiences a measure by which housing providers will be judged and held to account by the regulator.
There will also be improved transparency measures for tenants to be able hold their landlord to account. They need to know how it is performing and what decisions it is making. That information needs to be easily available. Earlier today we touched on the access to information scheme that we will introduce. That will enable tenants of private registered providers to request information from their landlords.
In addition, we have made funding available for a residents’ opportunities and empowerment programme, which will provide training to residents across the country on how to engage effectively and hold landlords to account. I hope that I have provided enough reassurance for the shadow Minister to withdraw his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that useful response and the hon. Member for Walsall North for his contribution. The Minister touched on an interesting issue when exploring the details of the Bill before today. There is not only potential for confusion but potential conflict about the role of a board member, particularly in the case of an elected councillor.
I was interested to read when looking into the death of Awaab Ishak that two councillors were removed by the board of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing for drawing attention to their concerns about buildings being pulled down—I am not saying that was anything specifically related to his death, but it related to concerns they had about a particular decision by the provider that was in conflict with their role.
In general terms, I understand the concern about being too prescriptive. This area should perhaps be kept under review. Whether it is best practice by some registered providers, guidance or whatever it might be, it is important to keep under review how to ensure that we can get the most representative and effective board of registered providers. As I said, this is a probing new clause. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 6
Standards relating to consumer matters
‘(1) Section 193 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2)—
(a) after paragraph (d) insert—
“(da) major repair or improvement works,
(db) estate regeneration,
(dc) service charges,”
(b) after paragraph (ga) insert—
“(gb) advice and assistance in relation to the prevention of homelessness,”
(c) after paragraph (h) insert—
“(ha) provision for urgent transfer of tenancies in relation to tenants affected by domestic abuse or other violence”’.—(Matthew Pennycook.)
This new clause would allow the regulator to set standards in relation to major repair or improvement works, estate regeneration, service charges, homelessness prevention, and urgent moves for residents at risk of violence.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Matthew Pennycook
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
In rising to speak to the final new clause, I thank hon. Members for their indulgence. They have listened to me a lot today.
Matthew Pennycook
Absolutely right.
We finish with an important new clause. It relates to what comes under the rubric of consumer standards as defined by the Bill. Since its initial publication in June, the Bill has been improved in several important respects. Today we have urged the Government to go further in relation to some areas and we will continue to do so, but we welcome the introduction of the consumer standards in relation to safety, transparency, competence and conduct.
However, there are other matters of real importance to social tenants that the Bill, as drafted, does not extend new consumer standards to. They include major repairs or improvement works, estate regeneration, service charges, advice and assistance in relation to the prevention of homelessness and urgent moves resulting from the risk of domestic abuse or serious violence.
New clause 6 simply seeks to ensure that the regulator has the freedom to set standards for registered providers in respect of each of those areas of housing management by amending section 193 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to include them within the scope of what is considered a consumer matter.
There is arguably a need for the regulator to carry out a thorough consultation about consumer standards to better understand what housing management issues currently matter most to tenants. However, we know both from organisations providing housing support, guidance and expert advice services and, I would argue, from our own postbags, that the issues covered by new clause 6 are important to tenants. There is an arguable case for placing them in the Bill to at least allow the regulator, which has probably consulted and developed them, to set consumer standards in relation to some of these issues at a later date. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Dehenna Davison
As the shadow Minister outlined, the new clause seeks to amend the Regulator of Social Housing’s powers to set consumer standards in a number of ways. All the issues that he raised are important. Although I cannot accept the amendment, I will seek to address the issues raised in turn.
On major repairs and improvements, all social housing landlords should be delivering decent social housing and prioritising repairs and improvements that need to be made to ensure that housing is up to standard. The regulator is already able to set standards relating to the nature, extent and quality of accommodation, and the facilities and services, provided. That can include specified rules about maintenance, which would cover major repairs.
The regulator’s current homes standard already requires registered providers to provide a repairs and maintenance service that meets the needs of tenants, with the objective of getting repairs and improvements right the first time. The regulator will consult on and revise the standards following the passage of legislation and the issuance of Government directions.
On estate regeneration, let me be clear that I agree that landlords should be adequately planning for major regeneration projects and delivering planned maintenance. However, including that area as part of the regulator’s standard-setting remit is not necessary. As I have noted before, the regulator already has the powers required to set standards required relating to maintenance and repairs. Those standards apply to all homes, regardless of whether they are part of a regeneration project.
Existing legislation also enables the regulator to set standards relating to the contribution of landlords to the environmental, social and economic wellbeing of the areas in which their property is situated, which relates closely to the intended outcomes of regeneration projects. The regulator already sets expectations about neighbourhood management in its consumer standards and will be consulting on revised expectations under the proposed new standards, once the Bill has been passed.
It remains the responsibility of landlords to effectively manage their stock and deliver decent housing for their residents. We believe that a specific standard-setting power for regeneration is unnecessary. Effective asset management is already a focus of the in-depth assessments that the regulator conducts, which mean that landlords have to demonstrate to the regulator that they are able to maintain adequate levels of investment in the homes that they are responsible for.
I turn to service charges. The Government’s policy statement on rents for social housing encourages registered providers of social housing to keep any service charge increases within the consumer prices index plus 1% per year—the current limit on annual increases in social housing rents—in order to help ensure that charges stay affordable. Following our recent consultation on social housing rent increases, the Chancellor announced as part of his autumn statement that the Government will cap the increase in social rents at a maximum of 7% in 2023-24. In line with the proposal set out in our consultation, we will amend the policy statement to encourage providers to apply the 7% limit to any service charge increases in 2023-24.
Our policy statement also states that tenants should be supplied with clear information on how service charges are set; in the case of social rent properties, providers are expected to identify service charges separately from the rent charge. The new clause is not necessary to facilitate the regulator’s requiring that transparency from providers.
Furthermore, service charges are already governed by legislation in the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which states that service charges can be charged only to the extent that they are reasonably incurred and that enforcement of that is via the courts. Consequently, it is not appropriate or necessary to add to the Bill a specific standard-setting power relating to service charges.
I move on to the issue of homelessness. Let me be crystal clear: the Government are committed to preventing homelessness, and I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North on the incredible work he did on that as a Minister. Since the introduction of the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, more than half a million households have been supported into secure accommodation. We are investing £2 billion over the next three years into addressing homelessness and rough sleeping, and in September we published our bold new strategy “Ending rough sleeping for good”. We have also provided £316 million this year for the homelessness prevention grant, which local authorities can use flexibly to meet their homelessness objectives—including to work with providers to prevent evictions.
I am not in a position to accept the new clause, as I believe the existing legislation is sufficient to achieve the outcome that the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is seeking. The regulator’s existing tenancy standard already requires social landlords to develop and provide services that will support tenants to maintain their tenancy and prevent unnecessary evictions. The regulator’s standards will be consulted on and updated following the passage of legislation and the issuance of Government directions. Consequently, homelessness prevention is already a priority for providers; the regulator plays a vital role in support.
I move on to the urgent transfer of tenancies in cases of domestic abuse and violence. Again, to be absolutely clear we do not expect anyone who is threatened with violence to feel that they cannot move to safety for fear of losing their security of tenure. A range of measures are therefore already in place to protect people at risk of violence and in need of urgent rehousing, some of which I have already outlined that in earlier contributions.
Chapter 4 of the statutory guidance encourages additional preference to be given to those fleeing violence, including people fleeing domestic violence, and private registered providers have a role in housing such people through their duties to co-operate, as I outlined earlier.
I will not rehash any more of the arguments that I made in response to the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood and her new clause 1. However, I should add that in schedule 5 to the Bill, we are already amending the regulator’s standard-setting powers to include policies and procedures in connection with behaviour that amounts to domestic abuse within the meaning of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021.
For all the reasons I stated, I do not believe that the amendments to the regulator’s standard-setting powers are necessary. I ask the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to withdraw his new clause.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Minister for that response. I am somewhat reassured by it, to the extent that she has laid out—in considerable detail, in some cases—the ways in which some of the issues of concern flagged in the new clause are appropriately covered by the standards, guidance, policies and procedures. My reservation is about whether those existing processes have the effect that would be achieved by allowing the regulator itself to set standards and consumer standards.
Given how complex an issue this is, I will take away the Minister’s response and look at it in more detail, but I reserve the right to come back to the issue on Report. We think it is important that some of these real issues of concern to tenants be given due consideration when it comes to whether they are brought within the new regulatory regime to be established by the Bill. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
Dehenna Davison
I have my Oscars-style speech of thanks to give before we finish today. First, a huge thank you to you, Sir Edward, for chairing the Committee so successfully and professionally, and for keeping us all in check. We are MPs; we always need someone to keep a good gaze over us to ensure that we are behaving.
I thank all members of the Committee for a constructive debate. One of the most reassuring things has been that there is such cross-party consensus in recognising that the Bill is absolutely needed and that we can all very much get behind its aims.
I thank the Clerks for their stellar work and my officials, who have been brilliant at speedily giving me all the information that I need. I thank the fabulous Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford, again for keeping us in check on the Government Benches.
I also say a huge thank you to Grenfell United, Shelter and others for their engagement on this important legislation. As the Minister, I feel grateful to have had the opportunity to take the Bill through Committee. I look forward to its coming back on Report; as I said, I will engage with Members before that point.
In my final breath, I say a massive good luck to both teams tonight. I am sure most people know which one I am supporting.
Matthew Pennycook
Briefly, Sir Edward, I thank you for your chairmanship of the Committee and the Clerks for all their work to prepare us. I thank the Minister for the constructive tone in which she approached the debate, and all hon. Members for the considerable amount of expertise and insight put forward in our debates. I, too, thank all the organisations, not least Grenfell United, that sent us their views and engaged with us on what they see as important in how the Bill could be strengthened.
As I said at the start, the Bill is uncontroversial and we welcome the vast majority of measures. We want to see it strengthened and we have made the case for that today. We will continue to make the case on Report for those areas of the Bill where we want to see further improvement, but I am glad that it can make swift progress to its next stage.
The Chair
I thank you for being so expeditious. My fellow Chair, who is a Scot Nat, has had an easy ride.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly to be reported.