Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Wednesday 12th November 2025

(began 2 hours, 4 minutes ago)

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15:07

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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My My Lords, My Lords, I My Lords, I regret My Lords, I regret to My Lords, I regret to inform My Lords, I regret to inform the house of the death of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, on the 11th of November, and on behalf of the House, I extend our condolences to the noble Baroness, family and friends. First oral question. Baroness O'Loan. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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Before I respond if I could, and I'm sure on behalf of the whole House, wish to join the Lords House, wish to join the Lords Speaker and extending our condolences sincerely to the late condolences sincerely to the late noble Ladies, friends, family and loved ones, we will miss her loved ones, we will miss her greatly. The government has no greatly. The government has no plans to extend access to telemedical abortions. As with other matters of conscience, other matters of conscience, abortion is an issue on which the government takes a neutral stance, and it is for Parliament to decide and it is for Parliament to decide the safety of women.

Accessing abortion services is of paramount importance. All providers are

15:09

Baroness O'Loan (Crossbench)

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required to have effective arrangements in place to ensure women's safety and to obtain

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informed consent. Before I before I ask my

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Before I before I ask my supplementary, may I pay tribute to the noble Baroness Baroness Newlove, who was so brave and effective in all that she did in this House and in her work for victims after the in her work for victims after the murder of her beloved husband, Gary. Helen had such compassion, such courage, and she really was such a courage, and she really was such a very lovely person that she will be sorely missed, not only by her family, to whom I'm sure we all send great sympathy, but also by so many of us in this House and in the many of us in this House and in the world beyond.

We were indeed blessed by her presence among us blessed by her presence among us here. My Lord, I thank the noble Lord, the Minister, for her reply. My Lords, is not possible on the My Lords, is not possible on the telephone to ensure a woman's privacy, to ensure that she is not being coerced, nor to verify that being coerced, nor to verify that the woman seeking the medication is actually the person who is going to take it, particularly in cases take it, particularly in cases involving domestic abuse, child abuse and trafficking, and government.

Stats show that since 2020, 54,000 people have been admitted to hospital in England for complications from abortion bills. complications from abortion bills. Last year alone, some 12,000 over 6% of women taking such medication required hospital treatment to safeguard women and girls. Will the noble Baroness, the Minister, take action to restore the requirement for face to face consultations, and will she also assure the House that there will be no no extension of the time limits for access to medical abortions?

15:10

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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My Lords, the evidence base for telemedical abortion is sound. It's been thoroughly evaluated. It's recommended as safe by the World Health Organisation, by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and in Nice's evidence based guidelines, there are no plans to do what the noble Lady has requested. And I would also have to say that I don't recognise the statistics the noble Lady has raised, although I would be very interested to hear more about them.

But I can assure you Lordships' House that telemedical abortion is and must be carried out in line with clinical guidelines published by the Royal College. published by the Royal College.

15:11

Baroness Sugg (Conservative)

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Lord Suri Minister, confirm that the changes voted in to the Police and Crime Bill in the Commons do not extend the provision of telemedicine and that the ten week limit remains in. The introduction of telemedicine has meant that 40% of abortions now occur in less than six weeks gestation, in comparison to 25% previously. Does the noble Lady, the Minister, agree that the earlier women can access abortion, the better it is for their health and wellbeing? Yeah. and wellbeing? Yeah.

15:11

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I certainly can confirm that the changes voted into the Police and Crime bill make no change to the provision of telemedicine and to the noble Ladies. Other point, we would need to review the data, including the available data, in respect of her question about health and wellbeing. And I'll be further.

15:12

Baroness Barker (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, I'd like to note that.

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noble Baroness new dedication to sticking up for victims extended, no matter who was in government at no matter who was in government at the time. And that was a very laudable thing to to witness in laudable thing to to witness in this House. My Lords, the noble noble Lady, the Minister, agree with me that all of the peer with me that all of the peer reviewed evidence suggests that women who are in vulnerable women who are in vulnerable situations find it easier and safer to access abortion services on the to access abortion services on the phone.

And that study after study has said that the processes that the professionals employ in those the professionals employ in those services are very well attuned to finding out what, if anything, is

15:13

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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finding out what, if anything, is happening to the person on the end of the phone, and particularly if you are under duress. Yeah.

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I certainly can agree with the points that the noble Lady has rightly made. There is a very clear rightly made. There is a very clear pathway to providing safe care and pathway to providing safe care and the provision of telemedicine in this regard is something that came this regard is something that came in in 2022, and indeed it has given in in 2022, and indeed it has given safe abortions further ballast to

15:13

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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safe abortions further ballast to what there was previously. So it is not anything other than a safe procedure. As I have mentioned

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earlier. My Lords, can I associate myself and these benches? My Lords, thank you, my Lords, can I associate myself and these benches with the myself and these benches with the the kind tributes paid to Baroness Noble, Lady Baroness Newlove. She was a fierce campaigner, was a fierce campaigner, particularly after sad death, premature death of her husband. In fact, her death could be seen as fact, her death could be seen as premature and we will all miss her greatly. And.

My Lords, as noble said, and many other nobles have said that much of the clinical evidence shows that telemedicine is just as safe as when medication is administered in clinic. However, however, whatever your view on abortion, there are clearly some abortion, there are clearly some concerns about coercion of women. So can the noble Lady, the Minister repeat the assurance to the House that Telemedical abortion consultations will include robust safeguarding assessments carried safeguarding assessments carried out by trained clinicians, and specifically, if there are any specifically, if there are any concerns over the safety of women or concerns that women may be being coerced from a by an abusive

15:14

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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coerced from a by an abusive partner into seeking an abortion, that they are referred to an in-person appointment. I certainly can confirm that,

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I certainly can confirm that, and I'm grateful to the noble Lord for emphasising the point. Two doctors have to certify their opinion. The abortion meets the grounds of the Abortion Act, and for telling medical abortion, a doctor must also certify their opinion that the pregnancy will not have exceeded ten weeks at the time the first pill is taken. Let me also say that if there are any concerns, the woman will be asked to attend an in-person appointment.

15:15

Baroness Prosser (Labour)

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My Lord. Minister, just to ensure that whatever is the umbrella of this legislation, that it will cover women in a variety of different circumstances? We all know that many women, unfortunately, live in a situation where they don't have much control over their own lives. There is also, of course, a circumstance where a woman might happily find herself pregnant, only to discover a couple of months later that really something else has happened. And this is really going to be a disaster.

So we just need to ensure that all the different circumstances that women might find themselves in will be enable those women. The legislation will enable those women to access whatever is right for them and their families. their families.

15:16

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I do want to understand the point that my noble friend is making, and can indeed assure your Lordships' House there is. We have at the heart of it the Abortion Act, but we have other Acts of Parliament. And as I said in the outset, it is right that Parliament makes that decision. In addition to the groups that my noble friend refers to, for example, we did commission the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health to develop new safeguarding guidance for children and young people under 18 who are accessing medical abortion services.

So we understand her concern and are acting on it. her concern and are acting on it. Of the.

15:16

The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)

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Regulations for early medical abortion to be provided without requiring in-person person medical consultation was a significant change. We have heard about the tragic cases where early medical abortion pills have been provided outside the law, and where women have been put at risk. As a result, we are now three years on from this change. Could the noble Baroness, the Minister, Minister, tell us what data has been collected in that time? And what does it tell us about the workability of the new system in terms of providing safe abortions within the law? abortions within the law?

15:17

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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And in terms of the data that is available, does, if I can say, but it doesn't point to it, doesn't point to concerns about the provision of telemedicine. And I should emphasise that, of course, abortions can only take place in an NHS hospital, a place approved by the Secretary of State or via telemedicine at the woman's usual place of residence. And I would also say approval has to be given by the Secretary of State and also inspected by the Care Quality Commission, which inspects providers.

So the data thus far is not flagging a difficulty in respect of tele medicine. In fact, all of the aspects of this are actually saying this is ensuring that this safe procedure is assisting the situation for the women concerned.

15:18

Oral questions: Needs-based funding in Wales

Second question Lord Wigley.

15:18

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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Leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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part of the arrangements. For pooling and sharing risk and resources across the UK. It is simple, efficient and provides a clear and certain outcome. The inclusion of a needs based factor in the Barnett formula ensures that accounts for the relative needs of the Welsh Government, and funds

15:18

Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru)

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them above Welsh Wales's independently assessed level of need, compared to equivalent UK government spending in England.

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When the Barnett formula was first established, over 100,000 first established, over 100,000 people worked in coal and steel in Wales. And that's down now to under 5000. Does the noble Lords Minister recall Lord Barnett admitting that his formula was outdated with the his formula was outdated with the consequent underfunding of Wales hidden by European regional grants, which of course have now ended? Has which of course have now ended? Has the noble Lords Minister seen Cardiff University's recent report stating that Wales receives far less than its population share of funding for reserved functions such as justice and railways, calling as justice and railways, calling for the tripling of the borrowing capacity and for full income tax devolution.

If the Minister cannot devolution. If the Minister cannot commit to a needs based formula, will the government at least now will the government at least now take the opportunity to give the Senate parity of financial powers

15:19

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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Senate parity of financial powers with the Scottish Parliament, the powers the Scottish Parliament now has here?

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I thank the Lord for that question and to say in reply, the Barnett formula does reflect the Barnett formula does reflect the higher level of needs in Wales. 5% needs based factor in the formula ensures Wales receives fair funding. It's the biggest uplift since 1998, when devolution first started. As when devolution first started. As far as the railways are concerned, the UK government is responsible for heavy railway infrastructure for heavy railway infrastructure across England and Wales. It's devolved, I believe, to to Scotland devolved, I believe, to to Scotland and so spends money on rails in Wales rather than railways in Wales, rather than funding the Welsh rather than funding the Welsh Government to do so.

This is consistent with the funding arrangements for all other policy areas reserved in Wales and Wales areas reserved in Wales and Wales continues to benefit from rail investment at 2025 spending review,

15:20

Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Labour)

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the Chancellor announced an investment in Welsh Rail of at least £445 million.

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My Lords, does the Minister, not. The Welsh Government, the largest financial. Settlement in the history of

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Settlement in the history of devolution, nearly £5 billion extra to spend on public services in the next three years, not supported in the Senate chamber by Plaid Cymru? Does the Minister agree that it was most positive to hear last Tuesday in the Senate, the Deputy First Minister telling the chamber that

15:21

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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Ministers had secured an agreement with the UK government to further explore the Barnett formula.

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I thank the Baroness Vere for that question and it is true that the UK and devolved governments the UK and devolved governments have agreed to undertake joint working work along working along working work along working along ways of improving the operation of the Barnett formula to report that the next ministerial meeting of the finance Interministerial Standing Committee, expected in early 2026. Committee, expected in early 2026. And just to reiterate, the 20% uplift in the the budgeting from

15:22

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)

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uplift in the the budgeting from the Barnett formula, which is equivalent to £4 billion this year. Does the Minister not recognise

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Does the Minister not recognise that this is not actually about the amount of funding going to Wales? It's about fairness. And could I It's about fairness. And could I draw his attention to the 2009 Reports Select Committee report by this House on the Barnett formula, which clearly showed that Wales loses out and that we should move to a funding system which is based on need. Surely that would be fairer to the people of Wales, and simply quoting numbers doesn't deal with the problem, which is the basic unfairness in the way in which the Barnett formula has which the Barnett formula has operated towards people, and where the.

15:22

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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I think it's just fair to say that the noble Lord Wood have already reiterated that Wales is receiving a massive uplift in its budget via the Barnett formula. It is the biggest increase since 1998, and I think we should be welcoming that and as well as and also as I've said earlier as well, that what we have is we are looking at the the Barnett formula again with the devolved administrations to find out what other ways we can do better.

15:23

Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)

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My Lords. I have a great deal of respect, did neglect to mention when he talked about the report A Decade on Reform of the Fiscal Framework, recently published by Cardiff University, that it described tax devolution and the extra needs based formula that was negotiated by Mark Drakeford as the finance as first finance and First Minister, as an unequivocal budgetary success, because it's added £1 billion by 20 2728 to the Welsh Budget. However, whilst making that point, can I also emphasise to my noble friend the Minister the need for that extra flexibility on borrowing and I very much hope that that will come out of these discussions.

come out of these discussions.

15:23

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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I thank my noble Lord for that question and just to say I would, I would like to think that all these avenues of approach that is mentioned will be looked at and discussed at the ministerial meeting that will be taking place next year, at the beginning of next year. But I think it's also important to point out that there is direct funding to Wales, and that includes, you know, 160,000 workers in Wales have benefited from a direct pay rise due to the increase in the minimum wage and the national living wage.

the national living wage.

15:24

Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, that's a each of the four nations operates a different and independent NHS computer system, which means that doctors struggle to get information on cross-border patients in England and Wales. Will the government now recognise the seriousness of this issue and adapt the Barnett formula, which stands in the way of providing the funding to remedy this situation? Yes. to remedy this situation? Yes.

15:24

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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I think that Baroness Stroud is a very important issue and it's something that the ministerial meeting at the beginning of next year will look at. I'd like to think that all these aspects of the Barnett formula and issues that the the noble Baroness has raised will be looked at in the round, because obviously we want to see efficiency departments.

15:25

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

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My Lords, Professor Fulton's.

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Independent review. Published in June this year, suggested that Northern Ireland's suggested that Northern Ireland's needs based factor might be higher than the 124% used in the current formula. We are all aware that the Barnett formula for the three nations and regions is deeply unfair. So therefore will my noble unfair. So therefore will my noble friend, in talking with the Chancellor and Treasury colleagues, give adequate reflection to the give adequate reflection to the need for the total review of the

15:25

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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Barnett formula to reflect the need for needs based assessment, and also for fairness and equity.

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I thank my noble Baroness for that question. And just to repeat and to say this is as far as Northern Ireland Executive is concerned, this is the largest spending review settlement received spending review settlement received by the executive in real terms since devolution started in 1998. The Northern Ireland Executive is The Northern Ireland Executive is receiving at least 24% more per person than equivalent UK government spending in the rest of government spending in the rest of the UK, and the Northern Ireland Executive is receiving an average

15:26

Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)

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Executive is receiving an average of £19.3 billion per year between 2627 and 2829.

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My Lords, would. The. Minister agree. That.

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That. The immediate issue in Wales is not the mechanism by which. Funds not the mechanism by which. Funds are now allocated, but how effectively those funds are spent in Wales? The Welsh Government's record of waste of inefficiency and misplaced priorities has, I believe, misplaced priorities has, I believe, deprived the Welsh people of value for money and of a really strong

15:26

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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for money and of a really strong NHS, despite record levels of funding that the Minister has pointed out.

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I think I would dispute with the noble Baroness has just said, actually I don't recognise that picture of what's going on in in Wales. Obviously the, the increase in the, in the amount of funding in the, in the amount of funding that's going to go to Wales through the Barnett formula is welcome. And I, as I pointed out, there's more I, as I pointed out, there's more direct funding to Wales as well. You know these £80 million for investment support, floating investment support, floating offshore wind developments in Port Talbot for example, £160 million Talbot for example, £160 million over ten years for investment zones in Cardiff City Region and Wrexham and Flintshire.

There's a lot going

15:27

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

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on in Wales, there's a lot to be proud of and there's a lot for the Welsh Government to boast about.

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You know, this is my Lords, this

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You know, this is my Lords, this side. My Lords. My Lords. The noble Lady.

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The noble Lady. Thank you. Thank you. With the strengths and representation and increased democracy we're about to see in Wales with the Senate elections under the new system, surely that adds further weight to Lord Wigley needs based argument for looking again at improving the Barnett formula for Wales. Barnett formula for Wales. Shouldn't the elected people closest to the voters truly representing them, have adequate

15:28

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Labour)

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representing them, have adequate resources to deliver on their aspirations? Yeah.

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Yeah. I think just to repeat, as I've said before, I think Wales is actually under the devolved authorities have done have done really well out of the Barnett formula this time around. It's the biggest increase in in funding from the Barnett formula since 1998. The money is there. It's up to the the elected assembly to decide how they're going to spend that money so that democracy is there. And all I can say is that the best result that we could get at the next election is a is a Labour Assembly.

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Oral question. Lord Davidson of Glen Clova I beg leave to ask the

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question standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords. The UK is engaged with the US on

15:29

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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The UK is engaged with the US on crypto assets risks through international fora and we have created a joint UK, US Transatlantic Task Force for markets of the future for enhanced collaboration on digital assets. The government is legislating this year for crypto assets, financial services regulatory regime, but the Financial Conduct Authority is the lead regulator. So consumers are protected and firms have the certainty needed to invest and grow certainty needed to invest and grow in the UK.

15:29

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend, the Minister, for his answer. The risks normally associated with cryptocurrencies are volatility, fraud, money laundering, access to criminality and have these risks been assessed by the government and if so, with what result? if so, with what result?

15:29

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm grateful to my noble friend for his question. The government's approach to crypto assets seeks to strike the right balance between giving firms regulatory certainty, while ensuring the sector has the space and flexibility to innovate. The government recognises that our financial stability and other considerations. My noble friend mentioned associated with crypto assets, but these do need to be balanced against supporting innovation and ensuring the UK positions itself as a competitive global destination for digital assets. Internationally, the UK financial authorities have been working through the Financial Stability Board to assess and develop supervisory and regulatory approaches to address global financial stability risks posed by crypto assets and global stablecoins are also currently working to put in place a comprehensive domestic regulatory regime for crypto assets as financial services, to ensure the UK has the necessary protections for crypto asset usage.

Just as the for crypto asset usage. Just as the cryptocurrency.

15:30

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)

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The minister's remarks are very welcome. Does he not agree with me that the risks around crypto are the risks of not regulating crypto? With 1 in 4 people in Britain now trading in cryptocurrency, half of them under the age of 35, regulation has never been more needed. And in essence, the key issue is time. We need to get on with it.

15:30

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm grateful to the noble friend for his question, and pay tribute to his considerable expertise in this matter. I think I do agree with what he said. Crypto assets have the potential to play a significant role in the financial services sector and the economy more broadly, including greater transparency, efficiency and security. We're already seeing the benefit stablecoins can provide in cross-border payments by reducing costs and improving efficiency, and unlocking the full potential for digital assets and blockchain technologies.

Requires payments that interact with them directly, and stablecoins can play an important role in achieving this. It's therefore important for the UK to harness these opportunities, and I agree with him. It's important that we bring forward that legislation as we will do so.

15:31

Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, that's my concern is the geopolitics. Much of the UK's trade today is conducted in offshore dollars, which sit beyond the reach of the US government as dollar stablecoin replaces traditional dollars, the US government gets its hands on levers to pressure us and others by threatening to curtail access. Is the government looking at these key issues of monetary sovereignty? Because the regulators clearly are not? Yeah.

15:32

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm grateful to the noble Lady for a question. I think she's not correct to say that the regulators are not. I think of course, they're taking that into account. She's absolutely right that the US are taking forward US denominated stablecoin. It's very important that the UK does the same thing. The government sees stablecoins playing an important role in diverse and competitive UK payments landscape. We hope firms will see the advantages of being regulated as stablecoin issuer in the UK, and will seek permissions under the new regime for this.

15:32

The Earl of Devon (Crossbench)

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Is loosening regulation. As the noble Lord, the Minister has mentioned, the FCA is midway through its multi-year review of comprehensive Cryptoasset regulatory regime. Can the Minister confirm that that review is proceeding in accordance with the published crypto roadmap? And is there any concern that the crypto sector in the UK is innovation will be hampered by increased regulation at a time that other jurisdictions are loosening their regulations? are loosening their regulations?

15:33

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm not sure. I share the noble Lords characterisation of the distinction between the two regimes. Clearly the US will legislate for their interests and we will legislate for ours. The US passed legislation for the regulation of stablecoin in the summer. US regulators will publish their regulatory rules in mid 2026, with a backstop date of January 2027. For the US regime to go live in the UK. The government published draft legislation in April, with the final legislation due before the end of the year.

Alongside this, the FCA is at an advanced stage in its consultations on the details of its regime, with a view to finalise its detailed rules and requirements in 2026. As I said at the outset, we have also created a joint UK, US Transatlantic Task Force for markets of the future for enhanced collaboration on digital assets. collaboration on digital assets.

15:33

Lord Ranger of Northwood (Conservative)

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I welcome the comments from the. Lords Minister on this.

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Interest as co-chair of Digital Markets, Digital Money APPG. And in fact, two weeks ago I was in Washington and met with the US Washington and met with the US Securities and Exchange Commissioner and Commission Chair Paul Atkins and the Commissioner, Hester Peirce, to discuss their Hester Peirce, to discuss their project crypto, their roadmap that they announced in August to modernise regulations for the modernise regulations for the digital asset economy. And the goal is to enable American financial markets to move on chain and position the US as a global leader in blockchain and crypto by creating a clearer, more innovative, friendly regulatory framework friendly regulatory framework whilst recognising the need to manage risks in financial stability.

Does the noble Lord, the Minister, Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that the greater danger to the UK is falling behind jurisdictions like the US if they

15:34

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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jurisdictions like the US if they move faster to enable innovation in crypto and digital assets? I'm grateful to noble Lord for

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I'm grateful to noble Lord for his question. I pay tribute to to his expertise in this matter. I think there's a lot of truth in think there's a lot of truth in what he says, and I think it's partly why we have established the Transatlantic Task Force, as I as I described, jointly established by Treasury and the US Treasury, the purpose of that task force is threefold. Firstly, to identify and explore options for short to medium term collaboration on digital assets. While legislation regulatory regimes are still developing.

Secondly, to identify options to improve links between our capital markets to enhance the growth and competitiveness of both UK and US markets. And thirdly, the task force should report ideally within 180 days. The task force is chaired by officials from Treasury and US Treasury, and include representatives from the UK and US regulators responsible for capital markets, so that we can share lessons between the two authorities.

15:35

Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)

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My Lord. any lessons from history when considering the potential consequences on the finances of ordinary people, of a regulatory race to the bottom with regard to any kind of financial instrument?

15:35

Lord Livermore (Labour)

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Well, possibly, but I don't at all share the characterisation of my noble friend of a regulatory race to the bottom. As I've said, we are we will regulate in the UK's national interest. The government will bring forward legislation to create a financial services regulatory regime for crypto assets this year. And clearly we must balance the that striking the right balance between giving firms regulatory certainty, protecting consumers and ensuring the sector has the space and flexibility to innovate.

15:36

Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)

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Lords. global. Can the Minister tell us what contingency plans the Bank of England and the Treasury have in place? Should a major crypto company in the UK collapse, with consequences for UK savers and markets now, as well as once legislation has gone through? And when we last discussed this subject, the Minister helpfully agreed that government might present a discussion paper which would help us all. When might we expect that, given the pace of change in this important area? important area?

15:36

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm grateful to the noble Lady for her question, as she knows the Bank of England is the independent regulator for systemic stablecoin and will design its regime as necessary to manage the associated risks on November the 10th. I think just earlier this week, the Bank of England launched a consultation to seek industry feedback on its systemic stablecoin regime. Building on the initial proposals set out in its 2023 discussion paper. This includes up to 60% of banking assets to be held in short term, sterling denominated UK government debt securities, consistent with emerging regulatory regimes internationally, and a proposed cap of between 10,000 to 20,000 individuals and 10 million for businesses applying to systemic stablecoins, and only after consultation, the Treasury and Bank of England are maintaining a close and ongoing dialogue on the legal and regulatory treatment of stablecoins in support of the government's objective to make the UK a global destination for digital assets.

In terms of any wider discussion paper, I'm very happy to continue discussing that point.

15:37

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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But, my Lords, my question really concerns the Bank of England's control over money supply and at what point when the public is adopting cryptocurrencies, at what point does the bank lose control of of money supply, and what calculation has the Treasury done or the Treasury done in conjunction with the Bank of England to maintain national control over our money supply?

15:38

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I'm grateful to the noble Lord for his question. The Bank of England's Financial Policy Committee and the Multilateral Financial Stability Board currently agree that crypto asset markets do not currently pose a material risk to financial stability in the way that Noble Law describes, but that stability risk may grow as connections between the traditional financial services sector and crypto markets increase internationally. The UK financial authorities have been working through the Financial Stability Board to assess and develop supervisory and regulatory approaches to address global financial stability risks posed by crypto assets and global stablecoins.

Verdirame.

15:38

Oral questions: US military action in the Caribbean

My Lords.

15:39

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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My Lords, recent.

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Including strikes. Against boats allegedly involved in drug trafficking, is a matter for the United States. The depth of our defence relationship with the US remains an essential pillar of

15:39

Lord Verdirame (Non-affiliated)

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our security, and we jointly recognise the significant threat that organised crime presents at home and abroad.

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My Lords, the US claims that the boat strikes are justifiable as boat strikes are justifiable as acts in self-defence and because the US contends that there is an the US contends that there is an armed conflict with drug cartels, it is fair to say that very few outside the US administration agree outside the US administration agree with those views. The government has repeatedly said that its policies is guided by international law. Can the government tell us what assessment it has made of the what assessment it has made of the position under international law, in respect of the boat strikes, and separately, a number of countries separately, a number of countries with which we have good relations, including Colombia, are being threatened by some of the US threatened by some of the US actions.

What steps are we taking

15:40

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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to defuse the risks? Can I thank the noble Lord for raising what is a really important question? I mean, the position of the government hasn't changed. We have stated and continue to state that the lawfulness of the strikes is a matter for the United States. That's our position and that's what we believe the United Kingdom itself, as far as the government's concerned, was not involved. We are committed to fighting the scourge of drugs and organised crime, including with our partners in Latin America like Colombia and the Caribbean, in accordance with international law and the UN principles, with respect to to all of this as well.

And I think if we're acting according to the UN principles, according to the principles of international law, that's something that the UK government itself can be proud of. My Lords.

15:41

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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It it seems from all of the media reports that the noble Lord, the Attorney General, has struck again. And now banning the sharing of intelligence with the US on this issue. Now, I'm sure the noble Lord is, of course, not going to comment on whether or not the US has as yet retaliated on this, but he's to his credit. And he said it again today, often told this House of his commitment to national security and defence. So does he think that putting our crucial Five Eyes intelligence relationship under threat because of a debate over the US use of force against Caribbean drug smugglers, is indeed prioritising the security of this country?

15:41

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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I think the government does prioritise the security of this country and as I say to the noble Lord, as far as the government of the United Kingdom is concerned, we are acting in accordance with we believe in acting in accordance with international law and the fundamental principles of the UN charter, and that's the guiding principle for the government. But let's be clear, as I also have said from this Dispatch Box time and time again, the US and the UK is a fundamental security relationship for this country, for Europe and for the global security.

And that's the important principle of which which this government adheres to. I know the noble Lord is smiling, but he agrees with that. And he will know that that fundamental principle, that fundamental government.

15:42

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

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My Lords, my Lords. friend. The Minister knows well that for many years we've been deeply involved in G8. That's the Joint intelligence, Joint Drugs Task Force in the in the Caribbean. And we work very closely. We share intelligence across the board. There is nothing strange over the years in being a little bit selective sometimes in what intelligence is provided. We've done that when we worked in Iraq, when we worked in other places in the Middle East. So it is not surprising.

But would he agree that it is just very, very important that we stay part of the part of the involvement in stopping that drug traffic, which is so destabilising, but have to be very careful over exactly what intelligence we do share. And as I say, that is not anything new. It is something we've done over many years. years.

15:43

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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My noble friend, that makes a really important point, because at the end of the day, of course we have to act. According to the UN charter, we have to act in accordance with international law, and the UK government does that. Alongside that is nothing new across the world, let alone between the US and the UK that we have to be. We're always sensitive about intelligence sharing, and we're also sensitive about how much we discuss that and talk about it. But I tell you, one of the things that my noble Lord has done, he's highlighted the fact that the UK, along with our friends in the Caribbean and with the alliance with the US, acting in accordance with those principles of the UN charter, as stopped many, many hundreds of millions of dollars worth of drugs coming out of that area of the world and coming into the US or into Europe.

And I think sometimes we should talk about that things. things.

15:44

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, my Lords, as. authoritarian and repressing dissidents and probably involved in drug trafficking. But does that justify extrajudicial killing without evidence by our ally? If the government has withheld intelligence, as the press reports say, I say we welcome it in these benches. But can he clarify? And does he not recognise when a government, an ally, loses trust or base its relationship on trust and puts it on transaction? That transactional decisions can go both ways.

15:44

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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All I'm saying to the noble Lord, which is a really important point, is the lawfulness of the actions of the US is a matter for them. What I'm saying is, as far as the UK government is concerned, we act in accordance with international law. We act in accordance with the fundamental principles of the UN charter, and that's what we do in that region. And by doing that, we protect many people's lives, both in the United States, the rest of America and indeed in Europe.

And that's something we ought to celebrate as well. Yeah. celebrate as well. Yeah. Conservative.

15:45

Baroness Rawlings (Conservative)

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Rawlings.

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What actual involvement do. HMG have at present in Venezuela?

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have at present in Venezuela? In Venezuela? It's a very good question. And of course, what we have we have an embassy in Caracas,

15:45

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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have we have an embassy in Caracas, which is the only five eyes, the only five eyes member who has an embassy in Venezuela. And we make our points to the government in Venezuela, but we also recognising the responsibility of having that embassy there and the importance of keeping that embassy there, so that we have a line of communication to all the parties in Venezuela. And so that embassy is extremely important. My Lords.

15:45

Lord Beamish (Labour)

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My Lords, as chair. want to comment on this individual case, but my hon. Friend also knows that our intelligence sharing is governed by the principles which came a review of the consolidated guidance in 2019, which came out of the report of the Esrc in 2018 into rendition and detention, a principle governed by that implemented by the conservative government at the time, is that we do not share intelligence. If there is a likelihood that an individual is going to be extrajudicially, killed or tortured.

Now that is accepted by our international partners and well known by and implemented by the security services, does that not show that we hold the highest regard to international law and is something that the last government were right to actually implement?

15:46

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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My noble friend makes a really good point, and he's right to point out that the last government implemented the particular review and the principles that he's referring to. All I'm saying is that the actions of the strikes that the US have conducted, the lawfulness of that is a matter for them as far as the UK government is concerned, what we're doing is consistent with international law, consistent with the principles of the UN charter, and that is the UN charter, and that is something I'm proud of with respect to our own government.

15:47

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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Lord Morse is being uncharacteristically coy in

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declining to. Say the. Government's position on whether the extrajudicial killings are a the extrajudicial killings are a breach of international law. Surely it's not simply a matter for the United States. As the Minister says, United States. As the Minister says, this government has been very vocal in announcing its view of the in announcing its view of the conduct of other nations under international law, whether in

15:47

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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international law, whether in occasion? Well, the government has not been coy at all in saying that international law should be adhered international law should be adhered to. It's not been coy at all in what it said about adherence to the UN charter and the principles of the UN charter. What I'm trying to do is, as a responsible Minister in a responsible government, is to deal with the difficult international situation, to say we have to be careful about what we say in terms of intelligence sharing.

It's not in anybody's interest sometimes to discuss these matters in open, but what is important is for us to lay out the principles that the UK government operates according to. And that's what I've done. what I've done.

15:48

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Conservative)

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Yeah. His Majesty's Government quite properly didn't. Recognise the last Venezuelan.

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Was marred by. Fraud and widespread human rights abuses. May I. Ask.

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The noble Lord, the Minister, whether consistent with. That decision, His. Majesty's Government has. Plans to make available the

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Plans to make available the interest from the Venezuelan gold reserves in the Bank of England to the legitimate government of the legitimate government of Edmundo Gonzalez, and whether it has any plans to evict the Chavista squatters from the Venezuelan

15:48

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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squatters from the Venezuelan embassy on the Cromwell Road. I don't know the answer to some

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I don't know the answer to some of what the noble Lords just there, and I don't think I even understand and I don't think I even understand part of it, so. I'll review it and get back to him. I have no idea if the road he's talked about. So, for example, let me just say, because I think it's an important point to raise, let me just lay out what the UK UK's Venezuela policy is, because I think it's I'm going to read this because I think it's important to put this on the record.

Nicolas Maduro's claim to power is fraudulent. The UK continues to call on the Venezuelan authorities to publish the results of the 2024 presidential election in full. This government announced sanctions against 15 members of Maduro regime last year, and the UK will continue to work with our international partners to achieve a negotiated transition in Venezuela as the only solution which ensures that the will of all Venezuelans is respected. That's the position of the government. I hope that in part explains to the noble Lord what our position is.

And more generally informs the House as well.

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My Lords, that concludes oral questions for today. And any member wishing to leave the chamber may do wishing to leave the chamber may do Lord, Lord, we Lord, we now Lord, we now come Lord, we now come to Lord, we now come to an instrument previously debated in Grand Committee. National Health Grand Committee.

National Health Service (Procurement, Slavery and Human Trafficking) Regulations 2025 Baroness Wheeler. Baroness Wheeler.

15:52

Business of the House

My Lords, I beg. Leave to move the. Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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Question is that this motion be agreed to as many as there are that opinion will say content the contrary not content. The contents

15:52

Statement: BBC leadership

contrary not content. The contents have it question the statement made in the House of Commons yesterday

15:52

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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on BBC leadership. My Lords. We need a trusted. Respected and.

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Respected and. Newsworthy BBC more than ever poll after poll shows that our poll after poll shows that our country feels more divided than it ever has been, not just in terms of party politics, but by geography, by generation, by race and religion. At home, politics seems to reward those who seek to exploit those divisions rather than overcome them. Foreign conflicts seep over into our politics, and distressing images from across the globe animate our discussions, along with the preponderance of highly partisan reporting from different media environments, algorithms, social media and our own prejudices make it easier than ever to close ourselves off to the news we don't want to hear or opinions which differ from our own.

That is why the BBC's founding mission to inform, educate and entertain, which it has performed with such distinction for more than a century, still matters so much, and why it seems to be getting harder. It's also why serious and and avoidable errors like the ones which have been highlighted in recent days, cause such dismay from across the political spectrum and do such harm to the BBC's journalistic reputation. At a time when populists are on the march, when criminal acts seem to be no bar to high office, when facts themselves come under attack and people are encouraged to choose their own truth, the BBC and other news organisations have to be more scrupulous than ever to set out facts clearly and dispassionately, and to own up quickly.

When mistakes are made on all those fronts. They have fallen short in recent days. Now, not everybody watching the BBC should come away with the same conclusions about the Middle East, about the wisdom of the American electorate, about the application of sex based rights in modern society. But how much more dangerous a society would we would be if they turned off the BBC altogether? Rightly, the BBC remains one of the most trusted sources of news in this country. But each year, three quarters of a million fewer people are choosing to pay the licence fee.

Millions more have grown up, whether here or overseas, without the BBC as their bedrock. Ofcom's most recent annual report showed that YouTube has already overtaken other broadcasters to become the second most popular media service in the United Kingdom. People are increasingly importing their news and their entertainment from the far reaches of the internet. No wonder the national conversation seems so cacophonous and so confused. So the process, which begins shortly, and perhaps the Minister will be able to set out some more detail about it, to renew the BBC's Royal Charter, and to try and anticipate the next decade in our rapidly changing media environment is a crucial moment for public service broadcasting, as well as working out how the BBC can remain a light on the Hill.

As the Secretary of State puts it in this statement, we will need to chart a course for all of our public service broadcasters. Does the noble Lady, the Minister, think we will have the same number of public service broadcasters in a decades time as we do today? Channel five is owned by the US company Paramount. ITV is in discussion with Sky, itself owned by another American firm, Comcast, about its own future. The respected former chairman of ITV, Sir Peter Bazalgette, has said there needs to be consolidation among our public service broadcasters.

What is the government doing to ensure that these cherished British channels remain distinctive, prominent and popular in an increasingly crowded media landscape? On the BBC itself, what discussions has the government had with the corporation about the threat of legal action from the president of the United States, because of the errors it's made in the absence of an ambassador in Washington? Has the government raised this matter with the US administration directly? And if the BBC ends up paying millions of dollars, whether as a result of foreign litigation or in a humiliating out of court settlement, who will bear the cost, the taxpayer or the licence fee payer? More broadly, what specific actions does the government want to see from the BBC to demonstrate that it has learned the lessons of this sorry episode, and that it is changing the way in the ways that it needs to change in order to avoid a recurrence.

I'd like to put on record my thanks and appreciation for Tim Davie, the corporation's 17th director general. He has had more than his fair share of crises to contend with, emanating from different parts of the huge and varied organisation that he has led. In his resignation statement, he has referred to the, I quote, very intense personal and professional demands of managing this role and I don't underestimate those challenges. As the process begins to appoint his successor, does the government have a view on whether the role of director general should be reconsidered? Mr.

Davie himself has said that it is not an impossible job, but as the noble Lady think, that it's striking breath in effect, asking somebody to be both chief executive and editor in chief is as practical now as it was in 1922. In the past week, the BBC has brought me to tears more than once with its moving coverage of Remembrance Day and with the final of the Celebrity Traitors. Perhaps I, perhaps I tear up too easily today. In yesterday, I've listened with pride and admiration to radio two, as people from across Northumberland and County Durham have lined drizzly rural lanes to cheer Sara Cox on as she ran through their villages, raising more than £1 million and counting for Children in Need, a charity the corporation founded 45 years ago.

That is the BBC at its best. If we criticise it or express our frustrations in weeks like this, it is because we care so much about the BBC and what it represents, while respecting its vital independence. I would urge the government, and indeed everybody from across this House and another place to hold its feet to the fire and make sure that it continues to be the best of British now and long into the future. into the future.

15:58

Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (Liberal Democrat)

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Thank my Lords. We welcome the.

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Of the BBC. But let us not mince words. It. Is under attack as never before.

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Is under attack as never before. A free press is the foundation. Stone of freedom and democracy, and Stone of freedom and democracy, and the BBC is the foundation stone of our free press. Highly respected Reuters Institute has just updated Reuters Institute has just updated its data on news and trust, and their findings should remind us all of the BBC's importance, not just of the BBC's importance, not just for the UK, but the world. In an era of disinformation and social era of disinformation and social media silos, the BBC stands as a beacon of accuracy.

As the beacon of accuracy. As the Secretary of State says in her statement, it projects British values, creativity and integrity to values, creativity and integrity to the world. My Lord, the BBC is not just the news. I think it is important to remind people of this. important to remind people of this. Its radio stations, podcasts, orchestras, BBC bitesize, BBC orchestras, BBC bitesize, BBC online, iPlayer, sounds, the world service it develops and invests in talent in local creative hubs talent in local creative hubs across the UK, not to mention a network of local radio and TV.

It plays a hugely important role in promoting the UK around the world. Soft power, both through the Soft power, both through the programmes IT exports and the World Service. Ever more important now, President Trump has cut off funds to the Voice of America and through its mission to inform, educate and entertain, it has made culture news, other people's experiences and lives available to all. To quote the words of the man who so, so in so many ways exemplifies the BBC David Attenborough.

It is that miraculous advance that allows a whole society, a whole nation, to see itself and to talk to itself. The origin of the word broadcast, my Lords, is to sow seeds widely. And that is what the BBC does. Of course, the BBC isn't perfect, and it's right that we hold it to the highest standards. The Panorama editing error was a serious mistake and we welcome the BBC's apology. However, it is obvious that this issue is being weaponised, weaponized by those who want to undermine the BBC and who would

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profit from its demise. Yeah. Without the BBC, we are more vulnerable to dangerous vulnerable to dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories. So as the government theories. So as the government navigates President Trump's latest tantrum, threatening to sue the BBC tantrum, threatening to sue the BBC for $1 billion, can the noble Baroness, the Minister, tell us what the government is doing to stand up for the BBC? Britain's BBC and speaking of interference by bad actors, serious concerns may remain over the conduct of Sir Robin Gibb during his tenure on the BBC board.

We need to have absolute confidence We need to have absolute confidence that the BBC can operate free from political influence, factional political influence, factional interests or personal agendas. If the government truly believes in an independent BBC, will they sack Robbie Gibb as the BBC charter Robbie Gibb as the BBC charter permits? My Lords, the new charter offers an opportunity to rethink the BBC appointments process and end the political grip on the BBC board. Will the noble Baroness, the board.

Will the noble Baroness, the Minister, listen to calls from this bench that both the chair and non-executive members of the board should be appointed by an independent body and not, as currently happens, by the government? My Lords, the BBC cannot be allowed to fail. Mistakes will happen and should be dealt with better and more quickly. But it is essential to our democracy, is trusted by its audience, provides much more to the nation than just news and current affairs, and is globally unique.

Unique. Remember, my Lords, the words of Joni Mitchell, or is it my noble friend Lord McNally? You don't know what you've got till it's gone. Please, let's not be in that place. And can I add my word? Sorry, echo. Lord Parkinson's words in in my adding my gratitude to Tim Davies services.

16:02

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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DG yeah. and noble Lady for their points and questions on this matter. I'm sure the BBC agrees with the noble Lord Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay in his aspiration for it not to be newsworthy, as the Secretary of State said in the other place yesterday, the BBC has a responsibility to uphold the highest standards when standards are not met. Firm, swift and transparent action must follow. Tim Davie and Deborah Turness have both taken responsibility for the mistakes they admit the BBC has made.

It is right that the government now continues to support the BBC as an important national institution, and supports the BBC board in managing the transition. Before I go further, like the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, the noble Lady Baroness Bonham-Carter, I would like to place on record my thanks to the outgoing Director General for his service and his commitment to public service broadcasting over many years, and I'd like to thank the CEO of news for leading the BBC news operation through turbulent times.

As the Secretary of State made clear, we do not underestimate the challenges that these roles pose and the pressure that they put on those who hold them. However, I also agree with the noble Lady that the BBC is about more than news. This government supports a strong independent BBC in an age of disinformation. The argument for a robust, impartial British news service is stronger than ever. The BBC is one of the most important institutions in this country. It has stood at the centre of our democratic and cultural life for over a century.

Each of us has our own personal connection to the BBC. We can all point to the programmes that we watched growing up and the deep impact they had on us. My own addiction to BBC news probably started with Newsround, and the BBC continues to be an integral part of the life of almost every single person in this country, and undoubtedly every person in your Lordships' House. It is not possible to talk about the BBC without acknowledging the people at the heart of it, in particular in relation to BBC news, the incredible work of BBC journalists across the country and across the world, whose tireless work enables stories to be told that would otherwise not be heard.

Many BBC staff put themselves in danger in order to report fearlessly from across the world, in particular, as the Secretary of State said yesterday. In the other place, and as the noble Lord referenced in his remarks, the World Service is a light on the hill for people in times of darkness. We undervalue the BBC at our peril. That is why this government will ensure the BBC remains fiercely independent and is also genuinely accountable to the public and people it serves. I'll now endeavour to raise the points raised by the noble Lord and noble Lady.

Lady. I wanted to start by welcoming the tone of the speech to the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, and his clear commitment to to both preserving the BBC, but also to holding it to account. In relation to his question about the appointment of the Director General. It is a matter for the board, and I am sure they are considering whether they should keep the role as it stands as is, but it can also be part of the governance consideration that will be looked at in the charter review, which I will come on to in a moment.

With respect to the lawsuit threatened by the president of the United States, the BBC has confirmed that they have received a letter from President Trump's legal team. Lawyers for the BBC are now dealing with this. It would not be appropriate for me to comment or speculate on this point. The chair's letter on Monday made very clear that the Panorama edit of President Trump's speech did give the impression of a direct call for violent action, and it included an apology for that error of judgement.

As a government, our commitment to an independent, impartial and empowered BBC is unwavering. The noble Lord raised a point around the potential consolidation of public service broadcasters. It is clear that the TV market is transforming. We're asking the CMA and Ofcom to look at how this could impact their work. At the heart of our views on this, though, we support public service broadcaster. Particularly, which, because we believe they benefit audiences and their sustainability.

I can't, however, read my own writing, which I'm scribbling, so apologies. That was a bit garbled in relation to other topics raised by the noble Lady. The noble Lady raised and named Robbie Gibb. I've no doubt that noble Lords will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on individuals. The culture sector has been speaking regularly to the chair of the BBC board to ensure he and the board as a whole, are in the best possible place to lead the BBC going forward.

And as the Culture Secretary was clear yesterday. In the other place, the charter sets a strict legal threshold that must be met before dismissal of a board member, and so she is unable to pursue that course of action in relation to questions around the timing and content of the charter review raised by both the noble Lord noble and the Charter Review will consider how best to ensure the public, the BBC, continues to deliver the high standards of reporting that the public expects.

And it doesn't just survive, but it actually thrives for decades to come. As the Secretary of State said yesterday, we will publish a green paper and consultation shortly. I'm not going to go further than that, as I'm sure your Lordships' House might anticipate, but I, I do understand that shortly does indeed mean shortly, and I look forward to future debates on this in your Lordships' House. I'd like to thank both the noble Lord, noble Lady, for the points that they have raised this afternoon.

I want to conclude by reiterating the government's view on the BBC, which is that it is an institution of national importance and one that we will protect, and we fail to protect it at our collective peril.

16:09

Lord Fowler (Crossbench)

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My Lords, I have been a journalist for 60 years. Leaving aside rather lively period in which I served with the late Lord Lady Thatcher. But apart from that, I have been a journalist in that time, and also in time as a journalist. I've chaired two regional newspaper groups. Of course, BBC have made mistakes and we have heard of one this afternoon and I would be the last to to deny that, and I hope that we will put that right.

But in my experience, my general experience, the gold standard in fair reporting has consistently been set by the BBC, both in reporting home news. And also, let me say, in reporting news overseas. So what we should do, I think, is to have a position in which we maintain and strengthen the position of an independent BBC. That should be our goal. No other. And surely what we do not want is the is the position of of the partisan news and the none too accurate news of Fox News being put down our throats by some of the people who are now seeking to imitate it.

So, my Lords, I think that although the BBC has gone through a very difficult stage, we've taken a long time in this House to come to this issue, incidentally. But although we've got we have now come to it, I think that there is a very wide public support for the BBC, much wider than people like Lord Pickles

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are. Keep going.

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Keep going. So what I would ask is that the.

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So what I would ask is that the. The noble Lady should say and should support the gold standard of

16:11

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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should support the gold standard of the BBC in report, in its reports and in its general reporting duty.

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Yeah, yeah. The Secretary of State for

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The Secretary of State for culture in the other place yesterday said that if we didn't have the BBC, we'd have to invent it. And I think it does have a proud history of over 100 years, proud history of over 100 years, and it can have a proud future, hopefully, if more than 100 years hopefully, if more than 100 years going forward as well. I concur with the noble Lords sentiment. 94% with the noble Lords sentiment. 94% of UK adults use BBC services each month, and the majority of people month, and the majority of people still believe it is effective at providing trustworthy news in an age of mis and disinformation, age of mis and disinformation, where we have hostile states where we have hostile states attempting to confuse the the, the sort of whole context in which sort of whole context in which we're operating, it's never been more important, but we do want it to be the absolute best it can be.

16:12

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)

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to be the absolute best it can be. So we do want that gold standard. Conservative.

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Conservative. My Lord, my Lords. Declare my interest as the presenter of a yet to be award presenter of a yet to be award winning radio show on Times Radio. My noble friend Lord Parkinson asked the Minister whether it is still the case that one can be director general and editor in chief of the BBC. Is it not time now to consider a fundamental structural reform of the BBC, where BBC news and the World Service are made completely structurally separate from the rest of the BBC, with own chief executive, own board and own accountability.

16:13

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Yeah.

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I would refer the noble Lord to the charter review. So as part of the charter review. So as part of the review process, the government expects to publish terms of reference and launch a public consultation in due course. In relation to that point around the specific role of the Director specific role of the Director general and whether or not different parts should be distinctly separate. I would anticipate in the first instance that that would be a conversation that that would be a conversation for the board and then for the board, with also a matter for the

16:14

Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)

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charter review in due course. My Lord. My, my Lords, my Lords,

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My, my Lords, my Lords, children's BBC, especially CBeebies is highly trusted. Parents feel is highly trusted. Parents feel safe and confident for their children to watch it. The content is mostly home grown and culturally relevant, so that our children grow up understanding their world. We need to do everything in our power to protect this last bastion of high quality content. As children migrate to unregulated platforms on online platforms, I fear for the future of this high quality children's content.

If the BBC is weakened. So how is the government going to ensure that we do not abandon children and maintain a robust BBC? And I declare an interest as a presenter of CBeebies.

16:14

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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I probably need to declare an interest as somebody who watched The noble Lady as a as a child on the BBC and have huge respect both for her work and for the work of C children's BBC, but also for the noble Ladies campaigning in terms of making sure children and young people get access to high quality, accurate content. I think I'm happy. I know the noble Lady has spoken to the Secretary of State about this, but I'm happy to follow up with a conversation on this point.

conversation on this point.

16:15

Baroness Caine of Kentish Town (Labour)

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Lord Labour Lord Bird. Labour.

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My Lords. As other noble Lords have noted, we must never shy away from discussing and.

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from discussing and. Addressing the BBC's. Challenges and shortcomings. Charter renewal will be. An. Important milestone in the.

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An. Important milestone in the. History of what is a cherished national institution, and I trust my noble friend and her ministerial colleagues will ensure steps are taken to strengthen public confidence in the leadership, accountability and performance of the corporation at every level. the corporation at every level. However, with that said, could my noble friend confirm that the government remains? And I think you've already said it, but we like to hear it repeated, fully committed to our main national public service broadcaster, which public service broadcaster, which does so much so very well to inform, educate and entertain.

And does she agree that a strong BBC will be

16:16

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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central to efforts to tackle mis and disinformation nationally and indeed internationally? Yeah.

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I'm not sure I've got anything other than yes to respond to my noble friend, I think I, I love the noble friend, I think I, I love the BBC. We do want it to be the best it can be, and that goes everything. it can be, and that goes everything. As the noble Lord on the benches opposite said, from coverage of key national moments like Remembrance Sunday, all sort of ceremonial Sunday, all sort of ceremonial events, but also to general news content and to programmes such as

16:17

Lord Birt (Crossbench)

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The Traitors, which three thoroughly. My Lords.

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May I welcome the. Extremely constructive tone from all three front benches about the all three front benches about the BBC and make three points, if I may, first the BBC. As some have said already, has been in the making for well over a century now, in an achievement unmatched in any other country in the world. It is a crucible for our best writers, for our funniest humorists, for our scientists, naturalists, historians, for every aspect of our culture.

It is the BBC of strictly the Last Night of the Proms, Farming Today and The Archers. Set second. In my experience, everyone working at the BBC, from the director general to front line journalists, works with honest integrity, utterly dedicated to public service. Third, as with all organisations, mistakes are made mostly innocent, but some not, some the result of inexperience, some local management laxity. On occasions and including, in my time, 13 years of time, some the result of a wider cultural malaise.

The critiques of some of the BBC's journalism by Mr. Prescott and by others on all sides of the political spectrum, do need to be calmly considered, my Lords, and, where necessary, addressed. And my Lords. I have no doubts whatsoever that under current leadership of the BBC that they will be. the BBC that they will be.

16:19

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Though I'm going to agree with much of what the noble Lord said, although I I'm not clear what the question was other than affirmation. Affirmation that I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord that we have world class programme making. We have world class journalism at the BBC. This doesn't take away from the fact that the BBC also has work to do in terms of working through some of the issues. We are also confident that the chair of the board is dealing on on dealing with these issues, and I know that the content of the letter to the chair of the Commons Culture, Media and Sport Committee outlined, outlined some of these issues and that they will be holding them to account.

But the Secretary of State is also speaking regularly to the chair of the board as well, and is confident that he is taking this situation extremely seriously and is exploring all the relevant issues and taking the necessary action to ensure we can continue to have the absolute gold standard. Gold standard journalism that everyone in your Lordships' House would expect. would expect.

16:20

Lord Polak (Conservative)

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My Lords, my Lords, my my Lords, we need to have some reality. Why are we having this statement at all? The Prescott report revealed that the BBC BBC flagship programme Panorama had faked a video of President Trump and Mr. Davies and Mr. Ness had known about it for six months and did nothing. The Prescott report also exposed systematic anti-Israel bias, anti-Semitism at BBC Arabic and impartiality problems on the wider coverage of Israel-hamas war, Mr.

Shah, Mr. Davies and Mr. Tennis knew this for six months, yet BBC executives were sent out to say, publicly and privately there was no systematic problem and telling the Jewish community there was no issue. This cover up is the whole problem. They have been caught out. So I say to the and ask the noble Lady, the Minister, if she agrees with me, to regain the reputation of fairness, of transparency and truth, the BBC really needs to act fairly, be transparent and tell the truth.

16:21

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Yeah. place in our society. The BBC has rightly acknowledged and admitted mistakes, and the error of judgement was referred to by Doctor Shah and his letter to the Commons Select Committee. The the where coverage, standards and enforcement of those standards has fallen short. We we we are anticipating and would expect, as I've no doubt the noble Lord would understand, things to improve. The chair has set out actions to address these which we welcome, and the DCMS Select Committee will have the opportunity to scrutinise these in due course.

The BBC is, however, an incredibly important institution. It is. It is important that we get the standards right, but it plays a crucial role in ensuring that all communities are heard and feel valued as part of our public life, and that is the standard we expect, and we expect that to be driven through. In any subsequent actions the BBC might take.

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Bishop. Bishop, Bishop. My Lords, I have just returned from a visit. To a country in.

16:23

The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)

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To a country in. well. a. Number of coups in. Recent years.

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Recent years. However, I can. Testify firsthand that. The role. Of the. BBC in such.

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BBC in such. Regarded. In a situation. Where people do

16:23

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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In a situation. Where people do not know where to turn to find. Out what is happening around them, and there is huge amounts of. Fear and.

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Fear and. Anxiety, it is to the BBC that they turn to. Find out. What is. Happening.

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Happening. And that remains true today. I believe even. In the face. Of mistakes that have been made.

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Of mistakes that have been made. I want to therefore, what's the noble Lady. The Minister can say. To reassure. Us that.

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Us that. The BBC will continue to have the people and resources. Need needed to play this.

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Vital role internationally. The World Service is renowned and revered the world over, and I'd like to reassure the right reverend Prelate that the this government Prelate that the this government believes that it plays an essential role in our global democracy. As role in our global democracy. As the Secretary of State said in her remarks yesterday and has been repeated in your Lordships' House, it is a light on the hill for people in places of darkness, and this government strongly supports the World Service and will continue to do so.

16:23

Baroness Keeley (Labour)

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All is to turn the light.

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My Lords, I think it is broadly accepted now that the BBC. Made a. Serious error. In broadcasting the edited clip on Panorama, and

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the edited clip on Panorama, and they also did not act swiftly. Enough. To issue an apology. But it's deeply concerning to hear today from respected BBC journalist from respected BBC journalist Kirsty Lang and Misha Glenny that they are firmly convinced that the BBC is under an unprecedented level of political pressure which threatens its future existence. And they rightly say that allowing the they rightly say that allowing the BBC to fail would be disastrous for our democracy and for Britain's reputation around the world.

So can I ask my noble friend, the Minister, I ask my noble friend, the Minister, if she will work with the Secretary of State to address these deep concerns about political pressures, concerns about political pressures, and can we do whatever we can to improve the governance of the BBC? And can those of us who support the And can those of us who support the BBC as our most trusted news brand be vocal as we are mainly in this be vocal as we are mainly in this statement today in our support for our national broadcaster, particularly as it now has to fill those two difficult leadership

16:24

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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those two difficult leadership roles and prepare to go forward to the charter review.

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For any public service broadcaster. Accountability and trust are key, including in trust are key, including in relation to its board. But what's important here is that the BBC maintains the high standards for which it's rightfully recognised, both nationally and internationally. It is right that the government can It is right that the government can use, support and work with the BBC as an important national institution and to manage the institution and to manage the leadership transition. A number of the issues my noble friend raised the issues my noble friend raised are likely to be addressed through the charter review, but I'd be very happy to meet with my noble friend happy to meet with my noble friend to discuss the concerns that have been raised with her directly, and

16:25

been raised with her directly, and to make sure that the Secretary of State is aware of the concerns that have been raised.

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Lord Sewell my Lords, my Lords, my Lords, there can be no doubt that the what happened on Panorama that the what happened on Panorama was both wrong and also damaging. But would the Minister agree with me that there is no institutional me that there is no institutional bias within the BBC? There are hardworking journalists seeking after the truth and sometimes they after the truth and sometimes they get it wrong. We all need a BBC that is confident about its future. A strong BBC at the cornerstone of A strong BBC at the cornerstone of our public life and creative economy, a powerful purveyor of this country's soft power and a this country's soft power and a beacon of impartial news for all.

beacon of impartial news for all. It seems to me that the BBC is now more vulnerable than I've ever more vulnerable than I've ever known it. Restoring confidence must be the key. Would the Minister look at ways of ensuring that the at ways of ensuring that the charter process, which is a defining moment for the BBC, is is made available so that the new

16:26

Lord Hall of Birkenhead (Crossbench)

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made available so that the new director general can come in and he and she can take the helm and drive that process. On behalf of all of us who believe in a strong BBC, would she also agree that one other way of strengthening the BBC's independence is to make this almost the last charter review process? This is used as a way of upsetting and and damaging and and taking questions about something as important as the BBC each time to say that there is a charter that runs on and on, I think would be an amazing legacy for this government, for the BBC.

16:27

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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In relation to the noble Lords, point as to whether this government believes that the BBC is institutionally biased. No, we do not believe that to be the case. The BBC provides trusted news and high quality programming. It's really important they maintain that trust and rebuild the trust by correcting mistakes quickly when they occur. And I would agree that for any public service broadcaster, accountability is important to maintain trust, I would I would say that arguably the charter review process comes at a good point in the BBC's history because it will enable us to have a national conversation, including voices from across the political spectrum and across the country, to make sure we get the right outcome, both for the BBC but more importantly for the country conservatives.

80 80 out 80 out of 80 out of London, 80 out of London, but 80 out of London, but I'm 80 out of London, but I'm sure 80 out of London, but I'm sure the noble Lady knows that actually, BBC noble Lady knows that actually, BBC Scotland is is in crisis at the moment. We have a long standing presenter who has been suspended. presenter who has been suspended. We have our flagship radio news programme under review, and we have programme under review, and we have an election to the Scottish Parliament in May.

So it is extremely important that that BBC Scotland as a as a characterful Scotland as a as a characterful voice for that is respected across the different genres, is is put in the different genres, is is put in order in time for that election. So what is the government doing and what can the noble Lady do to what can the noble Lady do to ensure that the voices of the nations and the regions are heard through our BBC? Yeah.

concerns about the overwhelming concentration of the media industry being from one background and in one region, and the noble Lady makes a a valid point, and I will feed that back to the Secretary of State and to Minister Murray as well. What I would like to do, however, is to highlight the work that the BBC has done over the years in this area, albeit from a English regional perspective, not least in Mediacity in Salford and through the work they're doing at Digbeth Loc in Birmingham, we're clear that this is important to make sure that the BBC doesn't just represent the views of one part of the country or one demographic, and we're clear that that will also be part of the charter review, albeit the issues that the noble Lady raises do need to be addressed before the elections next year.

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This may be a moment for noble Lords who wish to leave, to leave

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Quite Quite frankly Quite frankly.

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Quite frankly.

16:31

Legislation: Sentencing Bill - second reading

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Second Second Reading Second Reading of Second Reading of the Second Reading of the Sentencing

16:31

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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Bill Lord Timpson. I beg to move that this bill now be read a second time. My Lords, it's my pleasure to bring this bill for its Second Reading. I want to start by thanking the former Lord Chancellor, David Gauke, and his team for his Independent Sentencing Review. This has informed many measures in this bill. I want to thank another former Lord Chancellor to the now Home Secretary for all her work in getting us to this point.

I also want to thank the many noble Lords who have engaged with me on this bill. The input I have received has been a great value and generally very positive as we take this legislation forward. And of course, I want to pay tribute to our incredible prison and probation staff who have worked, often unseen and underappreciated, through an incredibly difficult time. I see and appreciate what they do every day, and I'm proud to call every one of them a colleague. And I also want to pay tribute to the noble Baroness Newlove, whose sad passing I learned of today as both victims Commissioner and Deputy Speaker of the House of Lords, Baroness Newlove brought unparalleled experience and dedication to her roles.

She championed the rights of victims and witnesses, and held agencies to account. Her leadership shaped the victims code, strengthened victims voices in the criminal justice system, and ensured that the Victims and Prisoners Act progress with victims interests. At its heart, she was an extraordinary public servant who I was fortunate to know well and admired immensely, whose life's work and legacy are defined by courage, compassion and an unwavering commitment to justice. My Lords, before I turn to specific measures in this Bill, it is important to understand the context of why it is needed.

When the new government came to power in July last year, we inherited a crisis in our prisons and probation service. We were days away from running out of places entirely, days away from the police having to prioritise which criminals to arrest, the courts having to make impossible decisions, and the criminal justice system buckling under insurmountable pressure, days away from our criminal justice system failing to deliver the one thing it was for delivering justice, we took urgent steps to prevent that catastrophe, and we've embarked on the biggest prison building programme since the Victorian era, delivering 14,000 new places by 2031.

But if we don't take further action, it is only a matter of time before we'll be back here again. In a few months we will again be facing prisons on the brink and having to take emergency measures and again asking, how did we get here? My Lords? That's why this bill is vital. It doesn't kick the can further down the road, and it doesn't shy away from making tough decisions to keep the public safe. Instead, it will end the cycle of crisis once and for all.

It will build a justice system that victims can have confidence in, and it will bring stability and sustainability to our prisons and our justice system. More than that, it will restore purpose to sentencing. It will deliver punishment that works by following the evidence of what works, that works for victims, delivering them the justice they deserve that works for society. We want better citizens, not better criminals. And what works for the public, delivering safer streets and protection from crime.

Of course, my Lords, that means that we must always be able to lock up the most dangerous offenders prisoners serving extended determinate sentences, those the court has deemed to be dangerous will not be affected by anything in this bill. They will still need the approval of the Independent Parole Board, if they're to be released at the two thirds point of their custodial term. The IPP sentence is also not included in the new progression model. The Parole Board will continue to review IPP cases at least every two years, and in many cases, more regularly.

My Lords will know that this is an area of incredible importance to me. I'm determined to support those in prison to progress towards a safe and sustainable release, but not in a way that undermines public protection. And for completeness, my Lords, nothing in this bill affects those who receive life sentences. Having been been convicted of the most horrendous crimes. But we need to be smarter. We need to follow the evidence. For many offenders sentenced to less than a year in prison, prison sets us up a revolving door of repeat offending.

Over 60% of those on prison sentences of less than 12 months reoffend within a year. Offenders have limited time to engage in rehabilitation. Instead, they're exposed to hardened criminals and shown a path that can lead to more crime. And when they get out, they may have lost their home, their job, their

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