Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Q5. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, how parishes can apply for the Places of Worship Renewal Fund. (900488)

>> Marsha de Cordova thank you, Mr. Speaker. With your permission, I would like to group questions five

10:22

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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would like to group questions five and eight. So the Places of Worship Renewal Fund was announced at the Renewal Fund was announced at the start of this year and formally launched in May. Now, Historic England are managing the operation of the new fund on behalf of the Department for culture, Media and Sport. Now, the first application window closed on the 14th of June and the second round is expected to follow soon. In September this year.

10:22

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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Douglas McAllister thank you, Mr. Speaker. While the UK Labour Government introduced a £92 million fund for places of worship in England, the scheme does not apply to Scottish parishes. Now that it has gone from VAT rebate to capital grants. The Scottish Government received the Barnett consequentials. However, no similar scheme was set up despite being told by the UK government as far back as January 2025. Can the Church Commissioner with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport please raise this with their Scottish counterparts as a matter of urgency to ensure Scottish parishes have access to much needed funding.

10:23

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Marsha de Cordova thank. very conscious that the new Places of Worship fund is not available in Scotland or indeed Wales or Northern Ireland. So my hon. Friend is to is correct to say that this has been a conscious decision of the government to move away from the old VAT rebate scheme to a new grant based system. He will know that this was not a decision of of the church, obviously, but obviously the church has been supporting Scottish churches, parliamentary offices indeed, as well as the churches in Wales as well as in the UK.

And I would be very happy to put my hon. Friend in touch with the team in Scotland if that would be helpful. I would also urge my hon. Friend, obviously, to do what all hon. Members should do when they want. Something happened is to lobby the Secretary of State for culture, Media and Sport on this particular issue.

10:24

Ben Goldsborough MP (South Norfolk, Labour)

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Ben Goldsborough thank. >> Ben Goldsborough thank. >> You very much, Mr. Speaker. There are 124 round tower churches in Norfolk. In South Norfolk. We in Norfolk. In South Norfolk. We have some Peter's in Forncett and Saint Mary and Saint Alston's in Bawburgh, to name but two. I've written to all my local churches to make them aware of the fund, but can I ask my hon. Friend, to help ensure all rural churches are encouraged to apply?

10:24

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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What a fantastic question. Thank >> What a fantastic question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously you are championing these beautiful churches across your constituency, churches across your constituency, and he is absolutely right to highlight both their cultural importance and the opportunities provided by the Places of Worship Renewal Fund. So I thank my hon. Friend for writing to all of his churches to share the details about the fund. And again, I would encourage hon. Members across the House to do the same if they are able to.

The National Church institutions have actively encouraged all parishes to make full use of this new fund and share the details as widely as they as they possibly can, whether that's through their clergy network, church wardens, etc. and I know that they are also regularly in touch with a targeted advice, newsletters and engagement with Asean officers to make everybody aware of this new capital grant scheme.

10:25

Nick Smith MP (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, Labour)

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Tom Rutland thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question number six. >> Scott Arthur. >> No, no, that's not me. >> I'm so used to it. >> It's good to give my hon. Friend

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It's good to give my hon. Friend from Battersea a break. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Commission has considered the proposed changes to the education outreach model. The changes are designed to save money over half £1 million every year, but also ensure we reach more students across the UK and increase the opportunities members have to meet the children and young people. While over 30 members have signed an EDM on the topic in 2020 five, 26 no events were held in nearly a third of our constituencies.

Under the proposals, the current model will be replaced by a digital model of outreach to increase opportunities for members to speak to students. The proposed new service will help reach schools in every constituency. A final decision on the proposals will be made following the consultation proposal.

10:26

Tom Rutland MP (East Worthing and Shoreham, Labour)

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Tom Rutland. >> I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. The Parliamentary Education Outreach Service plays a vital role Outreach Service plays a vital role in delivering in-person democratic engagement workshops in schools across the country, especially those that are disadvantaged and harder to reach. Engaging them in the work of our political system. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that the closure of this in-person service risks making Parliament more removed from young people across the country?

10:27

Nick Smith MP (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, Labour)

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Nick Smith can I thank my hon. Friend for this question. We Friend for this question. We understand his concerns about these proposals, but the new model is designed to increase engagement designed to increase engagement with schools across the UK. Given the high number of constituencies that receive no outreach visits at all, the key benefit here is that it will remove geography as a barrier, so schools everywhere can access these sessions. Furthermore, the proposed model would sit alongside other UK programmes that continue to provide in-person opportunities, which include our UK Parliament Week teacher training activity delivered around the country, the travel subsidy scheme, supporting visits to Parliament and the Learn with Lords programme.

Taken together, Parliament will continue to have a strong and

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visible presence beyond Westminster. Tessa Munt thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have to say I am dismayed by the fact that this is dismayed by the fact that this is going to. They're not going to be humans in contact with young people, humans in contact with young people, and I know that from my experience, young people have really engaged. When somebody turns up in their When somebody turns up in their place, particularly in their school, at a time when we're trying to reduce the screen screen time of reduce the screen screen time of young people.

I'd actually like to speak up in support of having people going into schools, especially when they're slightly more distant from London, because it's something so very different. So I'd ask the hon. Gentleman if I shall certainly reply to the consultation when it comes along. If I haven't missed the boat and I

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would speak up for this particular scheme, it's fantastic. Nick Smith thank you, Mr. Speaker. The scoping work, focussed Speaker. The scoping work, focussed on large scale and ambitious digital digital education outreach digital digital education outreach work across the UK. Case studies that were included in the research with the Royal Ballet and the North with the Royal Ballet and the North East Museums, Hadrian's Walls Live Focus Day both attracted very high

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levels of interest. Laura Kyrke-Smith thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question seven please.

10:29

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Marsha de Cordova thank you, Mr. Speaker. The church remains Speaker. The church remains steadfast in its support for Palestinians. The relentless attacks on the Christian population in Palestine and the wider region in Palestine and the wider region by the Israeli government are abhorrent, and we have seen Christian communities in Lebanon also cut off, with Palestinian refugees being the main target there. And also we've seen settlement expansion again in the West Bank also, which we know is in breach of international law. The bishops in the Other place have publicly highlighted their concerns by condemning the violence, and they have joined His Holiness the Pope and the local heads of churches who have called for the protection of all innocent civilians.

10:29

Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank her for her response. One of my constituents has written to me my constituents has written to me about Natalie Abidor, a young Christian girl from Birzeit in the West Bank, who was seized at West Bank, who was seized at gunpoint by Israeli forces earlier this month. Her family don't know where she's being held. They don't even know if she is alive and being treated well. This is a repeated pattern of behaviour. We've seen the same treatment of Lion Naseer, another Palestinian Christian, last year.

I've written to the Foreign Office Minister, but can I also ask what representations the church has made to advocate for Natalie's release and for the protection of

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other Palestinian Christians facing detention? Marsha de Cordova thank you, Mr.

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Marsha de Cordova thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I want to thank my hon. Friend for raising this important issue. And it is clear important issue. And it is clear the Israeli government are breaching international law, and breaching international law, and this really must be called out for the attacks on Palestinian Christians. Indeed, any Palestinian

10:30

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Christians. Indeed, any Palestinian is totally wrong and we need to see that stop. But the bishops of South Suffolk, Gloucester, Norwich and Chelmsford have written a joint letter on the 5th of June to the right, Reverend Doctor Ahmad Haddad, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land, about the case of Nathalie Obadia. And they were clear in their letter that Natalie's detention is a violation of article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The bishops have renewed their call on the government of Israel to abolish its punitive practice of administrative detention immediately and to immediately release Natalie and all those that are being presently held.

And we all know that these are cruel measures, Mr. Speaker, and and as Christians, we must all speak out for the defenceless and for the destitute and the voiceless, and I will continue to do all I can in my capacity, both as a member of Parliament, but also as the Second Church Estates Commissioner, to ensure the church stands against the violence we have seen across the region for far too long.

10:31

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> I apologise for not being here earlier. The sad reality is that earlier. The sad reality is that many Christians in in the West Bank and in Gaza face direct challenges and in Gaza face direct challenges for forced conversion to Islam. The sad reality is that in the Holy Land now, there is not an attempt to actually increase the number of Christians and bear witness. So will the church actually reach out and encourage and promote Christianity in the holy Lands, so that we can actually see more Christians there rather than less?

10:32

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Marsha de Cordova thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for his question. He may or may not be aware that the situation may not be aware that the situation in Palestine and across the region features regularly at church features regularly at church questions, and I have highlighted in the past the work that not just the church is doing, but obviously

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the wider Anglican Communion is doing in that region. Right.

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That completes questions. We now come to the urgent

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question, Mims Davies. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the progress made since the publication of Dame

10:32

Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)

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since the publication of Dame Louise Casey's review into group based child sexual exploitation, and the impact of recent developments on confidence in the government's statutory inquiry.

10:33

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Can I thank the hon. Lady for. >> The question? Tuesday marked.

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The question? Tuesday marked. One year since the publication of Baroness Casey's National audit on Group based child sexual on Group based child sexual exploitation and abuse. The House will record that the government accepted all 12 recommendations of what was a landmark report, exposing more than a decade of failure and inaction on the part of the state. Scandalously, the most vulnerable in society were let down by the very institutions that should have protected them. As the Home Secretary made clear in her written statement to the House earlier this week, this government is determined to confront the failings that occurred directly and decisively.

We have made good progress against the mandate for change set out by Baroness Casey, with action taken or ongoing in relation to all 12 of her recommendations. We have changed the law on rape to remove any ambiguity about the ability of sick Legislated to disregard any convictions for so-called child prostitution, and commissioned new research into the drivers of these heinous crimes, including ethnicity, religion, cultural factors, group dynamics and the role of online technologies. Central to our response is the statutory independent inquiry into grooming gangs, having been formally established in April.

The work of the inquiry is under way and it will shortly announce the first local areas that will face investigation in terms of the terms of reference, have been shaped by the testimony, priorities and lived experience of victims and survivors. And can I take this opportunity to pay tribute to them, Mr. Speaker, and to all who have campaigned to get us to this point. The inquiry will have a laser focus on grooming gangs, including the role that ethnicity, religion and culture played in these terrible crimes.

Mr. speaker, our message is clear we will do whatever it takes to secure justice for those who were so badly let down. Pursuing the evidence wherever it may lead, exposing failings and taking every necessary step to protect the most vulnerable in our society. For too long, questions about what was and will forever be one of the darkest moments in this country's history have gone unanswered. That must change, which is why the government has established a full, independent inquiry to shine a light on past horrors.

Alongside our wider work to tackle exploitation and abuse, which is backed by a record £100 million in Home Office funding this year and an unrelenting effort to keep our children safe from harm.

10:36

Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)

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So. thank the Minister for their answer. It has been one year since Dame Louise Casey Stark and deeply troubling review into group based child sexual exploitation. Known rightly as the rape gangs. She exposed what we know now a culture of institutional blindness, weak data, fragmented accountability and a reluctance to confront uncomfortable truths and ultimately stand up for women and girls who have been systematically abused, or simply they have not chosen to act. For.

The bigger fear was being labelled racist disgraceful. So deep concerns remain that progress on justice has been too slow and that in some areas is simply superficial. She has rightly warned of a box ticking culture. This government talks a good game, but recent ministerial Home Office resignations have raised serious questions about what it's delivering in practice. So how does the Minister respond to the deeply distressing but bold testimony of Fiona Goddard, who has bravely highlighted that some of the men convicted of abusing her have been released early, with some others potentially due for release soon.

This is Labour's choices and we warn them. Therefore, what action is being taken to rebuild the confidence of the victims in this process? Does the Minister deeply regret opposing measures to prevent early release in such heartbreaking and horrific cases? Finally, how is the government ensuring sentencing and post-release supervision reflect the severity of these crimes? I remind the House that they were warned by us about their dire choices on the safety of women and girls. What are they going to do about it? Will anything change before the next election? Or is this simply in the long grass? Survivors voices and community concerns need to be heard.

This is a matter of justice, accountability and trust. This government needs to step up and protect our women and our girls.

10:38

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister 14 years. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we can agree on some of what the we can agree on some of what the hon. Lady has said. She's right that there was institutional blindness and that we have seen in other ways across the state as well, and not just in these horrific cases. And it is something that we know we need to change. And she is right to speak of the victims and the horrors that they have.

They have suffered. And she is right to keep a focus on on that. I would just gently say on the prison situation that she said that they warned us. I mean, we warned them for very many years about the state of our prison estate and the catastrophic situation that we found when we came into government, where there just simply weren't enough prison places, and the whole system was at the point of collapse. And of course, we have had to respond to that.

And I, as policing Minister, have a duty to ensure that our police are policing our streets and making sure they keep everybody safe. And we are, of course, always aware of those people who are former criminals, who've been in prison, who come out to make sure we are keeping an eye on them in the right way. And I spend a lot of my time talking to the police about how we do that. In terms of Louise Casey, who I think we all admire very greatly and are very grateful for the work that she continues to do.

Of course, Louise Casey is right to push us to go faster. Of course she is. She always will. And that's why we asked her to do the job, because she demands the best from us. She also has praised the progress of the government in establishing the inquiry and the work that has been done to date. She has pushing. She is pushing us understandably, on on three areas around the convictions of the non child prostitution convictions that people who've been groomed might have been convicted of.

Operation Beacon port having information flows in the right way. And Whitehall sort of taking this with the urgency that it needs to be on all of those cases. We are going as fast as we can. We are responding to the questions that she has rightly asked, and we are pushing to get all of this work done as quickly as possible. She was very clear the inquiry should be a relatively speedy one. This was one of the challenges of Baroness Jay and her inquiry that took many, many, many years.

Excellent though it was. And so the inquiry will be concluded by 2029. It has £65 million of funding and

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we will get to the answers tomorrow. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Spicer review of 2018 into the handling of widespread sexual handling of widespread sexual exploitation in Newcastle of children and vulnerable adults children and vulnerable adults found a culture which did not which which enabled the exploitation and rape of children and vulnerable

10:41

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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rape of children and vulnerable adults and the culture of victims by not investigating them, and a culture of victim blaming. Now I. It also praised Newcastle City Council and Northumbria Police's actions following the. Following the investigation. Now I have repeatedly contacted Northumbria Police to. To raise issues around child exploitation and to seek reassurances of their actions. Given the case review comments. How can I ensure that Northumbria Police have the resources and support they need to support the victims, identify victims, to believe them, to encourage them to come forward and a culture of

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investigation and openness and transparency to reassure my constituents. Minister.

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for the question? Of course, I'm happy to facilitate conversations, but it sounds like the hon. Lady is sounds like the hon. Lady is already having those conversations. We are working on police culture, We are working on police culture, as she will know, and things like the Hillsborough Law and some of

10:43

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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the other wider work we're doing across government to make sure we have the right openness and transparency and the right culture to be professionally curious and seek out seek out solutions is very important. On the specifics, obviously, all of the forces across the country have had an increase in funding this year, and Operation Beacon Port has has its own fund of £38 million. So the funding should be there. But of course, I'm happy to have further conversations with. spokesperson.

10:43

Marie Goldman MP (Chelmsford, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is deeply disheartening to see that a year on from Baroness Casey's audit, year on from Baroness Casey's audit, the government has not made greater progress. These victims have already been failed once. They must not be failed again. There have been over 800 recommendations produced by previous inquiries, most of which have not been implemented. We see this over and over again across departments. Inquiry launched, recommendations produced and accepted by the government and then nothing while victims continue to suffer.

I wholeheartedly support the independent inquiry into grooming gangs, but it must not become an excuse to delay implementing the changes we already know are needed. So will the Minister set out a clear timeline for implementing all of Baroness Casey's recommendations in full? And will the Minister make clear to every organisation with a duty to safeguard children that the hundreds of recommendations from previous inquiries are not nice to

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haves, but must be implemented at pace and without further delay. Minister.

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Minister. Can I thank her for her question? The inquiry, led by Anne Longfield, The inquiry, led by Anne Longfield, will look at previous inquiries and recommendations and bring all of those into their remit, and I would encourage the hon. Lady to perhaps sit down and talk to Anne Longfield

10:44

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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if she hasn't done already. She has done already to make sure her concerns in that space are are felt. I would just say on on recommendations from inquiries. It's not an unreasonable point of view. I gave evidence recently to the Nottingham inquiry, and one of the issues that they're looking at is exactly this, that government inquiries over many years happen. Recommendations are made. And then actually there isn't the oversight. The Cabinet Office is acting on that, bringing together and making sure it it has a function to sort of drive, ensuring that whatever department it is, whatever role it is we do, we do prioritise those recommendations from inquiries.

We are making progress on all of the recommendations from from Baroness Casey, and I would say we are making good progress. Of course, we need to push as fast as we can, and she's right on that.

10:45

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Johanna Baxter thank you, Mr. Speaker. The victims and survivors absolutely have to be at the heart of this inquiry. So can the Minister talk to us about how Minister talk to us about how practically they are being put at the centre of this work, what the centre of this work, what access to support they are being provided with, and what meaningful opportunities they have to shape the outcomes of the inquiry.

10:46

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Mr. >> Can I thank my right hon. Friend? She's absolutely right to highlight the role of victims here and the need for us to be survivor focussed need for us to be survivor focussed and trauma informed all the way through. And that is exactly what through. And that is exactly what the inquiry is focussed on. They are working on a victims charter, which they are going to publish very soon, which will set out all the questions that the hon. Lady has asked in terms of how we will ensure we are both supporting, and also hearing the voices of front

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and centre, all those victims who we know weren't listened to for so long. Bob Blackman thank you, Mr.

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Bob Blackman thank you, Mr. Speaker. I sat on the housing, Communities and Local Government Select Committee for 14 years, and Select Committee for 14 years, and of course, we saw the first exposÃ© of the scandals of the grooming gangs, particularly in Rochdale and gangs, particularly in Rochdale and other places in the north of England. Dame Louise Casey came in

10:47

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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England. Dame Louise Casey came in front of us, made recommendations which have still not been carried out. So full power to the Minister to actually make this happen. The sad reality is that, as I understand at the moment, police forces are resisting the collection of ethnicity data and indeed resisting the investigation into those that turned a blind eye to what was going on in terms of grooming gangs. So will the Minister ensure that police forces carry out their duties properly, and that those who turned a blind eye to what was going on are actually brought to justice and suffer the consequences of not protecting vulnerable girls? Hey, hey.

10:47

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I. >> For his question? And I'd be very happy to have a conversation with him, or if he's got any information about which forces what information about which forces what he's heard on that front. Of course, it would be very worrying if that were the case. And we have made it were the case. And we have made it clear that ethnicity needs to be reported on. This kind of grooming based CS that we are dealing with here. We've also committed that in the police reform White Paper that it will be introducing soon.

And that was announced in the King's Speech that that will commit to do it across the board so that ethnicity reporting will be

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mandated and part of what the police have to do. Steve Race thank you, Mr.

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Steve Race thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister mentioned the issue of institutional bias, blindness to these horrific crimes. blindness to these horrific crimes. Can she outline how this vital inquiry's terms of reference have been designed to ensure a thorough been designed to ensure a thorough examination of those institutional failings? That meant that action

10:48

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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wasn't taken to protect children? >> Can I thank my hon. Friend? And of course, the terms of reference are very wide and very clear and will look at cultural ethnicity, race and any kind of bias that might have been in the system and

10:49

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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that was in the system in this case. And I think there is a there is a wider question that Louise Casey wider question that Louise Casey has talked about many times, and that we are trying to drive through the. I'm trying to drive through policing, and I know others are policing, and I know others are trying to drive through other areas of work, which is about this professional curiosity, keeping an open mind, problem solving, looking, open mind, problem solving, looking, finding, you know, and actually being curious to get to the bottom of what is happening and finding those connections.

There is also a big piece of work, I think, around just the information sharing across different organisations, because there is a blindness that comes from all the different institutions not talking to each other in the way that they should, and not picking up vulnerability where we should. And we've seen that with Southport Nottingham South we see it here. So there is a big job to be done there to.

10:49

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade the abuse of children. children. >> Is the most disgusting of crimes, and anyone involved in it or protecting someone involved in it protecting someone involved in it must face justice. But the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth, who I note is not in his place, published note is not in his place, published his report this week, and my constituents are eager to understand why the statutory inquiry is going to take three years. Can she assure me how agencies are working together now? So another two years? Several years.

But why is the government backed inquiry going to take so long?

10:50

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister so scary. >> Can I. >> Thank her for her question? The hon. Member that she refers to has hon. Member that she refers to has has done a piece of work, and I would welcome the work that he has done and and hope that he will pass on to the police the sort of criminal evidence that he has gathered and pass on to the inquiry. Any evidence that he has gathered. This is a this is a independent statutory inquiry.

It is a very different thing. It will be absolutely ruthless in in making sure we. We can outline every single part of what has gone wrong here and learn every single lesson that we have to learn. It is a completely different thing. What I would say is that statutory inquiries of this nature have in the past taken years and years, and Louise Pacey was very clear that she wanted it to be time limited. And so we have said we want it finished, which is unusual in an inquiry.

And there are some inquiries from the previous government set up that are still ongoing now. So it will be done by 2029. But it is a completely different piece of work. It will be enormously thorough and it will get to the bottom of what happened and bring us, you know, the answers

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that I know victims and the whole of the country want to see. Jas Athwal.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The grooming gangs represent the most profound betrayal against some of the most vulnerable people in of the most vulnerable people in our society, and the victims were failed by the very institutions that should have protected them. Justice was denied whilst perpetrators escaped accountability.

10:52

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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perpetrators escaped accountability. The vile individuals who systematically groomed, abused and violated these girls must face the full force of the law. Can the Minister provide an update on how Operation Beacon Port and explain how its work is helping to identify offenders, secure justice for victims and strengthen the national response to tackling these heinous crimes? Minister.

10:52

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for the question. Operation Beacon Port is being led by the National Crime Agency, which is the very best of Agency, which is the very best of our serious organised crime operators, and we are treating this operators, and we are treating this as we would treat serious organised crime, which is what it is. We're treating it with the very utmost seriousness. And the NCA are working with local police forces around the country to do reviews of closed cases.

They made an announcement yesterday that hon. Members can see online about reopening cases, and they are funded this year with £38 million, which is a very substantial amount of money which will enable them to uncover, go back over and reopen cases where we feel they feel that there is injustice has been done

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and that actually these cases need to be opened again. Ben Lake for the inquiry to

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Ben Lake for the inquiry to secure justice for victims and survivors and Wales is essential that it fully understands the devolved context of Wales and the devolved context of Wales and the various lines of accountability that arise from it. One way to achieve that would be for Wales to achieve that would be for Wales to receive a specific investigation. As one of the inquiries designated local areas. Can I ask whether the Minister can consider that.

10:53

Ben Lake MP (Ceredigion Preseli, Plaid Cymru)

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Minister can consider that. >> Minister? >> Well, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the inquiry is entirely independent and it's not for us to say where where it should lead. What I would say is that I know that the inquiry are going to be announcing shortly the first tranche of areas that they will be going to. So he will be able to see at least the first stage of those areas soon.

10:53

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Patricia Ferguson thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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I wonder if the Minister could advise, if she believes that the inquiry has the appropriate powers inquiry has the appropriate powers and also the flexibility to allow it to follow the evidence wherever it leads, so that the it leads, so that the recommendations can then drive lasting improvements in safeguarding and child protection?

10:54

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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safeguarding and child protection? And can she advise, if she is in dialogue with the Scottish Government on these matters, to. >> Minister?

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Minister? Thank her for her question. She's. She. She can be reassured that this inquiry has all the powers that it needs to go without fear or favour, to find the answers that we all seek. This issue is is too important for us not to have ensured that. So we absolutely have. And I know that my colleague the Minister for safeguarding will be Minister for safeguarding will be in contact with her counterparts in the Scottish Government to make sure we are joined up in in our approach.

10:54

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Tessa Munt thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I echo the comments about how disgusting these particular crimes are? Lady Casey identifies the government's quashing of convictions, has failed to take account of the whole

10:55

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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picture, so quashing convictions for underage prostitution is laudable. But there are other laudable. But there are other convictions, like possessing drugs given to those who are abused by their abusers or carrying them their abusers or carrying them under coercion. The Minister referred to professional curiosity. I wondered if she could encourage I wondered if she could encourage people around her to engage exactly that, and to look further than just that, and to look further than just the very first conviction, the main conviction, and to sort this out.

10:55

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I thank her for the for the question? As she says, we have quashed convictions for people quashed convictions for people under 18 who were tried for prostitution. That was a very important part of this picture. And important part of this picture. And Louise Casey is is suggesting that we go further. At the moment, we go further. At the moment, victims can apply, they can come in and apply. And I think she wants a more proactive response. So we are working on more active guidance for victims.

10:56

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Mr. >> Can I thank the Minister for her response and for her reassurance that this inquiry will have the that this inquiry will have the powers to go wherever and to whomever, whomever it needs to get the answers for the families and the answers for the families and Redditch and other areas affected by these heinous crimes. Can I ask her when the initial set of inquiries announced, if areas that we represent are not included, but we still want to persist and ensure that our families get the justice that they required? How are my best placed to do that? Via the department and via her?

10:56

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Mr. >> I thank him for the question. As I said, the inquiry is independent of government, and that's right and proper. What I would suggest is proper. What I would suggest is that he speaks to Anne Longfield, who is leading this work, or her who is leading this work, or her panel when the when they make their announcement, of course, people will will say, well, what about other areas? I'm sure that will be the case, and I'm sure that they will be working through that and dealing with dealing with the priorities as they as they see them, and I'm sure they would welcome input from the hon.

Member.

10:57

Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)

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Christopher Chope Mr. speaker. >> Has referred to. >> The grooming gangs inquiry

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The grooming gangs inquiry carried out by our friend the Member for Great Yarmouth and Early Member for Great Yarmouth and Early Day. Motion 380 makes a number of recommendations. Will the Minister engage with our hon. Friend in ensuring that that his ideas and recommendations can be taken forward, because we don't want to have to wait for three years until the Baroness case report comes.

10:57

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Stuff. >> Well, firstly, can I reassure him that we're not waiting three years until the inquiry to act? We years until the inquiry to act? We are already doing a lot of work, as I've already outlined things like Operation Beacon Port to reopen cases, and we are using the legislative process to do what we need to do in terms of data collection, ending the statutory rate definition. There is a whole raft of work that we are doing, and of course, we have a wider piece of work around violence against women and girls and our ambition to halve that in ten years.

What I hope is that the hon. Member he refers to is talking to Anne Longfield, who is chairing the inquiry, which, as I say, is independent. She will take all information from all places and as I said, I hope he's feeding his information into her and I hope that if he's got criminal evidence he is passing that to the police. I'm sure he has uncovered and talked to some victims of the most grievous harm. And we want to make sure that they

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they see that the government is acting in the in the best way appropriate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My thoughts are with the victims of these despicable grooming gangs. these despicable grooming gangs. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that it's vital in the context of the numerous actions this the numerous actions this government have taken to protect

10:59

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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women and girls, that despite this, members in this House, hon. Members in this House sometimes use language inside and outside this House, which allows the spreading of tropes online. About my party and hon. Members on this side, which I can speak from personal experience, have real world implications, because those online tropes affect the behaviour of people in the real world. And does she agree with me that it is incumbent upon honourable and right hon. Members in this House and outside this House to use temperate language? Opposition is needed and expected, but politicising such an important issue can create real risk to hon.

Members in the real world and others.

11:00

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister and. >> I couldn't agree more with my hon. Friend. We all have a duty to hon. Friend. We all have a duty to try and use language in a way that doesn't incite hatred and division. And of course, there are very strong feelings, particularly around this area, because the the the crimes are so heinous and there was so much that was wrong in the way that the state in all its forms responded to those crimes. So I understand the anger, but I do urge all hon.

Members to be careful with their language. We've all received in real life the impact of what we are seeing online. And it can be it can be very scary and very dangerous. And I know that lots of hon. Members have had the same. So I would urge everybody to treat this issue with the respect that it deserves.

11:00

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon Mr. Speaker, can I thank the Minister very much for her encouraging answers, and also her encouraging answers, and also to put on record that no one doubts the Minister's commitment to deliver justice in this House, and deliver justice in this House, and we thank her for her commitment to that. Will the Minister outline what urgent steps government will what urgent steps government will take to action? The recommendations on mandatory ethnicity, recording of offenders, deportation, deportation of all foreign national perpetrators, full institutional failures by the police, the social services, local authorities, the NHS and follow through with a national public inquiry with subpoena powers.

Thanks very much, Minister.

11:01

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I thank him for his question on ethnicity? We will be legislating in the police reform bill that is shortly coming before Parliament to ensure ethnicity is recorded in the way that I think recorded in the way that I think everyone in this House wants to see. In terms of foreign national offenders, he will know that we have increased very substantially the number of foreign national offenders that are being deported. Since the last government, there has been a big increase, and that's quite right.

And we will continue to do that, and we will continue to do the work across all of our departments to make sure people are acting in the way that they should be. And there is a whole raft of work underway across multiple departments to make sure that's the case.

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Right. We'll let the frontbench

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Right. We'll let the frontbench

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Right. We'll let the frontbench change over. Those questions. Acting shadow leader Joe Morris.

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Will the Leader of the House give us the upcoming business leader? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The business for the week commencing the 22nd of June will include Monday, the 22nd of June, remaining

11:02

Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)

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stages of the Armed Forces Bill. Tuesday the 23rd of June. An opposition day at first allotted day debate on a motion and the name of the official opposition. The subject is yet to be announced. Wednesday. The 24th of June debate on Motion to approve Ways and Means on Motion to approve Ways and Means resolutions relating to the taxation of energy and vehicles, followed by a debate on motion to followed by a debate on motion to approve the Draft Carbon Budget Order 2026, the Draft Climate Change Act 2008, International Aviation and Shipping Regulations 2026 and the Draft Climate Change Act 2008.

Credit Limit Order 2026 Thursday the 25th of June a general debate on Windrush Day 2026, followed by a general debate on the diagnosis and treatment of pans and pandas. The subject for these debates being determined by the backbench Business Committee on Friday the 26th of June. The House will not be sitting the provisional business for the week commencing the 29th of June includes Monday the 29th of June. Estimates day, first day, subject to the agreement of the House. There will be debates on estimates relating to the Cabinet Office insofar as it relates to security and resilience.

The Northern Ireland Office and the Home Office and Ministry of Justice, insofar as they relate to the criminal. To criminal Justice. Tuesday, the 30th of June estimates day. Day two. Subject to the agreement of the House, there will be debates on estimates relating to the Department for culture, Media and Sport insofar as it relates to sport and Youth services, the Department of Health and Social Care, insofar as it relates to pharmaceutical procurement and the Department for Work and Pensions, insofar as it relates to the spending, priorities and performance.

And at 7 p.m. the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates Wednesday, the 1st of July, proceedings on the

11:04

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Supply and Appropriation Main Estimates Bill, followed by consideration of a business of the House motion, followed by all stages of the taxation, Energy and Vehicles Bill. Thursday, the 2nd of Vehicles Bill. Thursday, the 2nd of July debate on a motion on Commonhold and Leasehold Reform and the Regulation of property managing the Regulation of property managing agents, followed by a general debate on access to further education. The subject for these debates were determined by the debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee and on Friday, the 3rd of July, the House will not be sitting.

11:05

Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)

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Tom Morrison thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to be responding again to the Leader of responding again to the Leader of the House. It is, of course, the day after England started their world champion, and it is fair to say they already have our hopes up. I am a bit cheered out, Mr. Speaker, and today we, many of our colleagues, are pounding the pavement for the. By elections, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is waiting with bated breath to see if the Self-anointed King of the North is shortly to begin his long march South to save the Labour Party from the Greens.

Or maybe he is waiting more keenly for the next intervention from the former health Secretary, bemoaning the Prime Minister's and I quote, poor leadership, poor judgement and bad politics. The truth is, Mr. Speaker, that, well, the comedy of errors, the comedy of this Labour government, is playing out the serious issues facing our country, go unaddressed grooming gangs, the murder of Henry Novak, the two tiered justice system and benefit Britain, but none more so than the irresponsible failure of the Prime Minister and this Labour government to support our armed forces with a defence investment plan fit for the dangerous world we face.

A Prime Minister and Labour government also prepared to see our veterans subjected to continuing persecution and relentless lawfare. It is a failure of leadership. It is a failure to put our country before party. It is a failure to put our brave service men and women before personal political survival. And it is a failure to protect those who have fought to keep us safe and free. It is easy to say the first duty of government is protecting the country.

It is much harder to make that choice. The choices needed to deliver on that duty. We know that the root cause of this failure that Labour MPs put Benefit Street before anything or anyone else. The DWP Secretary of State kindly confirmed it when he told Peter Mandelson that the only question Labour MPs ask him is who they can tax to pay more benefits. The Prime Minister didn't have the backbone to confront his backbenchers and tackle the out of control welfare Bill.

£333 billion of welfare spending this year, £18 billion higher than last year. As the centre for Social Justice pointed out recently, £18 billion could have been invested in our armed forces. £18 billion could have bought 200 fighter jets, £18 billion could have bought 12 warships, £18 billion, could have funded 250,000 extra soldiers. Labour is taking the wealth created by hard working families, small businesses and millions of Britons, and making clear that in Labour, Britain working just doesn't pay.

That. In Labour's Britain, Benefits Street comes first. Which brings me back to Andy Burnham, a twice failed Labour leadership candidate who has shown he has exactly the same flexibility of principle as the current Labour leader. A twice failed Labour leadership candidate who is who is? Who thinks governing will be as simple as out greening the Greens, spend more, tax more. Repeat. This Labour Party can never and will never change. Our armed forces, hard working families and small businesses across Britain deserve better.

It is time for this government to keep their promises,

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or it is time for this government to go. Yeah. Leader of the House.

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Leader of the House. Mr. Speaker, and I welcome the hon. Lady to her place, and we'll get to her remarks in just a second. But may I say, before I do so, Mr. Speaker, that I was saddened to hear this week of the passing of hear this week of the passing of Roy Hattersley, former deputy Labour leader. He was, and it's an overused word, but he was a true

11:09

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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overused word, but he was a true giant of the Labour Party and will be remembered for his role in reforming it. He gave decades of service and I send my condolences to his friends and family. I'm also sure, Mr. Speaker, that the whole House will join me in sending our condolences to the family and colleagues of PC Jess Turnbull, who was killed on duty as a Northumbria Police officer. Police officers risked their lives each day to help people and make a difference, and PC Turnbull was a committed and dedicated officer and she will be sorely missed.

I also want to congratulate the parliamentarians and those associated with Parliament who were recognised in the King's Birthday Honours last week. It's right and proper that people who make an exemplary contribution to public service are recognised in the way that many others across our country are recognised to. Mr. speaker, this week we've introduced announced that social media will be banned for under 16 seconds. We're going further than any country in the world by banning social media for under 16 seconds, and we're putting wider protections in place to give young people their childhood back.

And yesterday, Mr. Speaker, this House passed the National Security State Threats Bill, and many members have raised this with me in this forum, and there will be pleased to see that the bill gave the Home Secretary new counter-terrorism powers to stand up to foreign state organisation and state linked groups that threaten the UK's national security and the safety of our communities. I join with the hon. Lady in congratulating England and Scotland winning their opening World Cup matches, particularly Scotland's performance, which was their first win in the men's World Cup for 36 years.

Let me turn now to the remarks of the hon. Lady, and she started by referring to the King of the North and disappointing her remarks, because I thought for a

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moment she was referring to me. But but.

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But but. But as king of the North. But but but but clearly not. But she's right to say that leadership, right to say that leadership, leadership is a serious matter. She's a late convert to this, Mr. Speaker, because as I've pointed Speaker, because as I've pointed out before, she was one of the last people in the bunker with Boris Johnson. And then and then when Johnson. And then and then when that ended, she leapt to Liz Truss. So I just ask her a question.

How did that turn out then? But on a serious point, this Prime Minister has done more than his predecessors, much more than his predecessors predecessors to make our country safe, both by working hard on the diplomatic stage but also on defence. And I would just remind the House that her government quote and I quote, hollowed out defence. And they're not my words. They're the words of a former defence secretary in the government that she served in. And as for tackling, as for welfare, we are tackling the broken welfare system that they left behind, and we're getting on with the job of that.

But let me just say this we are renewing public services, but we're also keeping our country safe. It's not a choice of either or. We're doing both of those things.

11:13

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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Daniel Francis thank you, Mr. Speaker. Me and my constituents Speaker. Me and my constituents rely on the 96, 48 and 492 bus routes to serve Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater Shopping Centre. Reform led Kent County Centre. Reform led Kent County Council have proposed a substantial increase to their bus tax. The transport for London bus services transport for London bus services pay to use the fast track busway at Bluewater, putting those services at risk that many of my residents in Crayford and in neighbouring constituencies rely on to serve both the hospital and the shopping centre.

So does Leader of the House agree with me that it's vital that Kent County Council reconsiders this proposal, and that they and transport for London, work with local MPs and the local councils to ensure that these essential bus routes are safeguarded for my constituents.

11:13

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to bring this to the House's attention. this to the House's attention. Buses are the most used form of public transport, and they are a lifeline for many local communities. The record of the last conservative government on bus routes is appalling. They raised fares and they left communities stranded. I am sorry to say that the reform councillors appear to be following that example. I hope that they've heard my hon. Friend remarks today decision.

11:14

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Lisa Smart. Lisa Smart. >> Thank you very much indeed, Mr. speaker. It's a real pleasure to be back once again subbing for my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington. Last week, the NHS published the first ever official figures on corridor care. This figures on corridor care. This ripped off the plaster and revealed a scandal many of us seen, many of us have seen first hand. In one month. Patients across the country were treated in corridors at least 69,000 times, and that's with major trusts like Birmingham failing to share their figures.

This practice has become dangerously normalised across our NHS. My colleagues and I on the Lib Dem benches believe this amounts to serious and continual negligence, and Ministers should be held to account before a corridor care tribunal of patients, bereaved families and frontline NHS staff. Because behind every one of these numbers is an NHS trust and a hospital starved of resources and of capital funds and a social care system in crisis. That leaves hospitals full of people desperate to leave. But they can't because the care package they need isn't available.

While we've got A and E waiting rooms heaving with patients waiting to be seen, nowhere is the crumbling estate behind this crisis clearer than at Stepping Hill Hospital in my patch, with its growing £134 million repair backlog, collapsing ceilings, leaking roofs that forced the temporary closure of the intensive care unit, and times when just four of the 14 lifts were working, meaning anyone using a wheelchair was unable to visit a higher floor ward and meaning patients were being carried up and down stairs in scoops.

So I asked the Leader of the House, Will the government make time for an urgent debate on the corridor care crisis and the state of the NHS estate to ensure that patients, including those in my Hazel Grove constituency, are no longer treated in corridors or left waiting on them for hours for the treatment they deserve.

11:16

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Leader. care in a corridor, and the situation that we inherited is unacceptable, undignified, and we are determined to end it. Which is are determined to end it. Which is why, for the first time, we are publishing the data to show where problems are greatest and ensure problems are greatest and ensure that trusts get the support that they need. We are also taking action, investing £150 million to extend, expand, urgent and emergency care services. And I just say to the House that there is a way to go.

That ambulance response times are the fastest in five years. She. She talks about a debate at the health bill. Mr. speaker has just gone into a committee. I think it's his first day today. So both in committee and then when the bill returns to this House, I'm sure there will be ample opportunity to debate the matters that she raises.

11:17

Liz Twist MP (Blaydon and Consett, Labour)

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Liz Twist thank you. been quite the month for races in my constituency. So a couple of weeks ago we saw the cycle race from the Derwent Reservoir to Consett town centre, and on the 9th of June, of course, we have the famous Blaydon Race, where over 5000 runners took place, took part in it. Both events centred in the local community are important parts of our local spirit. Now. These magnificent events highlight just how deeply residents across Blaydon and Consett value their shared identity.

Will the leader allow a debate in government time on central funding for regional heritage events and projects?

11:17

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this to the attention of the House, and she's right that ensuring that communities can come together is vital, and the government is providing funding to help local areas breathe life back into their high streets and to restore community pride, not only giving them investment, but allowing them to make the choices. Hers is a very beautiful part of the country, Mr. Speaker, and I know that. I know that many members of the House will see the benefits of the community events, both the concert cycle race but also commemorating the Blaydon Races.

But I would recommend to her perhaps an adjournment debate will be the way of being able to discuss how beautiful her constituency is, but also how much. Find out how much the government is supporting what she aspires to.

11:18

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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Bob Blackman, chair of the Backbench Business Committee. announced next Thursday in the chamber, there'll be a debate, a Select Committee statement from the Work and Pensions Committee on Work and Pensions Committee on their recent report. The. The backbench Committee received eight backbench Committee received eight high quality bids for estimates de debates and we had to disappoint two of those. But we've allocated three debates on each day as the leaders announced, I would make a plea to the leader to avoid government statements on those two days because they are well subscribed debates and backbenchers will want to have their say about the estimates that are coming.

In addition, the business in Westminster Hall on Tuesday the 23rd, will be a debate on flytipping in residential areas and associated impacts for Thursday the 25th. There'll be a Select Committee statement from the housing, Communities and Local Government Select Committee, followed by a debate on National Lung Cancer screening programme, followed by a debate on ports and port connectivity. On Tuesday, the 30th of June, there'll be a debate on government support for removing unlawful storefronts from and regenerating local high streets.

On Thursday, the 2nd of July, there'll be debates on reducing premature deaths from heart disease and stroke, followed by a debate on government plans to tackle air pollution. Mr. speaker, I was tempted to ask the leader for a statement on the performance of

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London Underground. Given my experience again this morning. Yeah. But given that that's a devolved

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But given that that's a devolved responsibility to the Fylde mayor of London, I will have something much more joyous to to relate. Sunday is the is the International Day of Yoga. This was made the Day of Yoga. This was made the International Day of Yoga in 2015, and it's celebrated across the and it's celebrated across the world and indeed will be celebrated next week in Parliament as well. Personally, I do yoga stretches first thing in the morning when I wake up.

Because yoga is recognised now in the National Health Service as being extremely valuable to

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People's individual health. I'd recommend it to everyone. So could we have a statement from one of the presumably one of the health presumably one of the health Ministers next week on the benefits of yoga to people's personal health.

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of yoga to people's personal health. Leader yoga. Mr. speaker, first of all, can I thank the hon. Gentleman for the thank the hon. Gentleman for the work of his committee and for him updating the House on the business. As far as the committee is As far as the committee is responsible for that going forward? I've certainly heard what he said

11:21

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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about statements on on the days he knows that, I am keen to make sure that there is as much time as that there is as much time as possible for his debates to go ahead and for people to be able to ahead and for people to be able to take part in that. But he also knows that sometimes it's a difficult balance between getting that time, but also keeping the that time, but also keeping the house updated on these matters. On the question of yoga, which he raises, let me tell the house I raises, let me tell the house I don't do yoga stretches on a morning.

That will come as a surprise to many, I know, but I don't, but I'll certainly think about it going forward in. Well, people get into all sorts of positions in this place, don't they? Continue. But but but but I think I better stop this before it goes any further. But but but my understanding is that yoga does have a calming effect. So maybe it's a question for the Commission to consider whether we introduce it as part of what we do in this House before we start our business.

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I agree. Mr. speaker, blind and.

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Train train line was closed during the 60s with the Beeching cuts. It reopened in December last year, and there's been more than 1.5 million.

11:22

>> Visitors passengers. >> On that line. And there's a huge burning desire, Mr. Speaker, to burning desire, Mr. Speaker, to extend the line to Newbiggin by the sea, the coast via Woodhorn Colliery. Can we have a debate in government? Time to discuss the merits, the benefits to local communities who are socially and economically for well, well supported local train infrastructure lines which benefit my community and other communities across the country, likes of Ashton Blythe and Bedlington.

11:23

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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Yes. House, and I pay tribute to him for all his hard work in securing the line, but also the hard work of our hon. Friend Ronnie Campbell, who worked extraordinarily hard on this

11:23

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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project as well while he was a member of this House. And he's much respected and much missed the respected and much missed the government. Mr. speaker is bringing rail services back into public ownership to ensure that our ownership to ensure that our railways work for all the communities that they serve. I would recommend, perhaps, that my hon. Friend seeks an adjournment hon. Friend seeks an adjournment debate so that he can make his case about not just the success of the current line.

It is a. It is a remarkable success, but also for the potential for expansion in the area that he represents.

11:24

Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)

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Sir Roger Gale. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. speaker, you will recall that on the 16th of April I raised with the Leader of the House the failure of Leader of the House the failure of capita to administer properly the Civil Service Pension Scheme. The Leader of the House, ever courteous, passed that information and my concerns to the Cabinet Office. The Deputy Director of the Government People Group responded on the. On the 30th of April, saying that the second Permanent Secretary at HMRC is personally leading a specialist person Pensions Recovery taskforce to restore service levels.

We are, I quote, now focussed on a backlog of approximately 25,000 outstanding pensions quotations and in response to my concerns about capita, she said. Capita is a strategic supplier to the government and they have more than 80 contracts across the public sector. She also said that we are holding capita to rigorous account through every available commercial lever. Mr. speaker, could I gently ask the Leader of the House? Is it not time

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for the Cabinet Secretary to come to the House and make a statement and face questions on this matter? Thank you, Mr.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the right hon. Gentleman is clearly frustrated on this matter, and he's right to be, because this has been raised not because this has been raised not just by him but by other members of the House, almost as long, I think, as I've been doing this particular as I've been doing this particular role. So I will go to the department to see if the response

11:25

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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that he got does reflect the fact that the government does take this seriously, and that efforts are being made to improve the situation, but he is seeking an update, and I will go to the department and see if we can get an update that he seeks further.

11:25

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. speaker, we all know how important housing is, and I applaud the government's ambition to build 1.5 million new homes. But we've seen in Enfield, where we now have a conservative led council propped up by the Greens, decide to go to axe completely the government's axe completely the government's proposal for 21,000 new homes. Doesn't you think it would be good to have a debate in government time about how we can reprofile that spending with the Mayor of London to make sure that constituencies like mine in Hackney South and Shoreditch and my neighbouring east London constituencies can get the housing that we need, even if it's not a new town in one big space, that we could consider a revision of the government policy to create new towns with smaller cluster of smaller developments in seats like mine.

11:26

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise these matters, and I can again voice about where decisions like voice about where decisions like these are taken. Recognising the fact that that houses are necessary. They are needed not just for where people are meant to make a home, but also they are a driver of economic growth as well, which we all seek. I would respectfully suggest that should she seek perhaps a Westminster Hall debate or an adjournment debate, she will find that other members across the House will want to come and speak in that debate with her and get an update on what the government's plan is.

11:27

Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

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Carmichael. Alistair Carmichael >> Carmichael. Alistair Carmichael thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can we have a debate in government time on the changes proposed by the Maritime changes proposed by the Maritime Coastguard Agency and the way in which they compensate those who give their time as coastguard give their time as coastguard volunteers? The agency is currently proposing changes which are causing massive concern amongst volunteer coastguards. In my constituency and right around the coastline, and we risk seeing people being forced to walk away from volunteering as coastguards, leaving communities without the necessary protection as a result.

Surely the leader himself can agree that not to take on board those concerns before the changes are made demonstrates a fundamental

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lack of respect for those who give their volunteer services in this way. Yeah.

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Thank you. Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman will know that this Gentleman will know that this decision to make changes comes from a Court of Appeal judgement that said that the current arrangements said that the current arrangements could not legally continue. And as a result of that, the decision was made to move to a new model that

11:28

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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made to move to a new model that shouldn't, Mr. Speaker, suggest any disrespect for the Coast Guard service who are instrumental in keeping people safe around our communities? And he knows that I'm a MP for a coastal community, and I am acutely aware of the importance of the Coast Guard service, and therefore, it's important that we get this right. This was raised, I believe, Mr. Speaker, at transport questions by a number of colleagues and the Transport Minister at that point agreed to meet with colleagues.

So if the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting a meeting will help to make his case, and it's a strong case, then I'll have to arrange that meeting.

11:29

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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Jayne Kirkham thank you, Mr. Speaker. Cornwall has organisations like Young People Cornwall, which like Young People Cornwall, which deliver vital services in substandard, frankly, premises, and they're doing brilliant work with they're doing brilliant work with limited resources, but they need investment in buildings to expand their impact. I'd be grateful if the leader could ask the Minister to outline the timeline for the next phase of the Better Youth Spaces Fund, and how the criteria will be changed, so it will also benefit rural and coastal areas, because at the moment the criteria are similar to the pride in place criteria, which does exclude some of those areas.

11:29

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend is right to raise the importance of youth services, and importance of youth services, and our vision, Mr. Speaker, is to establish a much more straightforward funding system to provide young people with opportunities where and when they need them most, and we will be providing further details regarding eligibility criteria later this year. But I'm sure I will ensure that the Secretary of State hears my hon. Friend, concerns and gives him an gives her an update.

11:30

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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So. Gavin Williamson. on both sides of the House, we're deeply appreciative of the work of civil servants right across the country. And if I can pick up the country. And if I can pick up the points that was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Herne Bay and Friend the Member for Herne Bay and sandwich is we've got a real issue here. I've got pensioners who have dedicated their life to the civil service, who are not actually in receipt of their pension from March, and as a Member of Parliament who continuously writes and follows up these issues with the scheme, they're just simply not having the courtesy to even respond and say what they're doing.

Can we have, as a matter of urgency, the Minister come to this House to make a statement and make it clear what is being done to support our civil servants who have retired?

11:31

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and he says, quite rightly, that it's already been raised. It is raised at most business questions, if I'm honest. And as I've said in if I'm honest. And as I've said in a previous answer, the government does take this seriously. We are acting to turn around what is a very difficult situation. But I very difficult situation. But I hear what he says about getting an achieve.

11:31

Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)

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Dame Jessica Morden. >> History teacher, the Leader of the House will know that Newport was the site of the UK's last armed insurrection and that every year in Newport we honour and commemorate the Chartists sacrifice at the annual Newport Rising Festival, and annual Newport Rising Festival, and I am delighted to say that the torch lit march is being considered for Unesco Wales's Inventory of Living heritage. Does the leader agree that we could do. We should look for every opportunity in this House to debate and recognise the sacrifice of people's movements who helped to shape our democracy in this House, especially at a time when our democracy is under threat?

11:32

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, congratulate my hon. Friend on her well-deserved Damehood announced last week very well announced last week very well deserved indeed. She is right to draw attention to the story of draw attention to the story of Chartism, because it is a vital part of the story of democracy in our country, not least the Newport Rising in 1839. And our democracy is absolutely central to who we are as a country.

And the Chartists helped to build that. We can take pride in the evolution of democracy. And as a government, we have a responsibility to protect and strengthen it. I'll give some thought, Mr. Speaker, as to how we might be able to mark the contribution of Chartism and others who have played a part in the extension of democracy. But in the meantime, and I would invite other members to do so too. There is what was once a secret door Mr Speaker between the.

The previous chamber in this house and the cloisters, which is being repaired in 1851, and the people who were repairing it, the workmen who were repairing it, slept amongst the cloisters and appear on the census in 1851. And what they managed to do, I'm not sure we would approve it at this time. It's. They cover the door with Chartist graffiti. Once a history teacher, always a strategic. So if anyone wants to see that graffiti. Which is a remarkable example of the messages that Chartists leave for our history, I'm sure the House can facilitate that.

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Jamie Stone don't get him on the Romans. Jamie Stone.

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Romans. Jamie Stone. Mr. speaker. Thank you. I want to raise the case of Hughie to raise the case of Hughie Stirling from Ullapool. He was on board the flotilla proceeding to board the flotilla proceeding to Ghana with aid when the Israelis intercepted them in international waters and took them into custody.

11:33

Jamie Stone MP (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)

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waters and took them into custody. His partner tells me that he and others were shockingly mistreated. We're talking about physical abuse and even being beaten up. Now, when his partner made appeals to FCDO for information or assistance, the silence was utterly deafening. Hughie is a British citizen and has his rights. Surely so. Could I ask, with respect to the House, could we have a debate in this House on consular support and protection? Protection of UK nationals

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delivering aid abroad. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. And I'm sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman's constituents and certainly is not acceptable. The British citizen acceptable. The British citizen should be treated in such a way, and I'm also disappointed in the the disappointment of the response so far from the FCDO. I'll give some thought about what he asks in

11:34

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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some thought about what he asks in terms of consular support, but also if he wishes to meet a Foreign Office Minister. To put those

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concerns directly, I'll help him to arrange that. Jonathan Davies. Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker. The government's the Labour government's Summer of savings program, cutting VAT for savings program, cutting VAT for visitor attractions and on children's meals, and also providing free bus travel for under 16 seconds. This August is very 16 seconds. This August is very welcome news for families in Derbyshire and those visiting the county, as it is a very much loved

11:35

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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county, as it is a very much loved holiday destination. It's also a very important shot in the arm for a sector which is struggling. So can I suggest to the Leader of the House that we make some time in the autumn, once we have assessed how successful that scheme has been to have a debate in government time, so we can bring those insights from our constituencies across the

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country to see if there's more we can do for this sector going forward later this year. OK. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I join my hon. Friend in welcoming the Great Britain Summer of savings. The measures will help families to enjoy a day out for less and support businesses that depend on footfall over the summer. On the footfall over the summer. On the more substantive point that he makes, I will make sure that he gets a response from the Treasury

11:35

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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gets a response from the Treasury so that he is not just about the policy, but that we can learn lessons and perhaps look at it

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going forward. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This week we've been discussing civility in public life. Yet almost a year ago, I reported Rutland councillor Mark Chatfield, formerly to the Liberal Democrats, for a year's Liberal Democrats, for a year's worth of offensive social media posts, which included, I'm sorry to say, a racist post against the Member for Richmond, comparing him Member for Richmond, comparing him to different shades of toast. He's also attacked local journalists, calling for them to be named and

11:36

Alicia Kearns MP (Rutland and Stamford, Conservative)

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calling for them to be named and shamed, and uses phrases such as beat faced Tory expletives on his social media. What do we do when we formally go through the processes that political parties put in place, and they refuse to do anything at all when their councillors clearly

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bring their parties into such disrepute? Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm very

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm very sorry to hear of the hon. Lady's experiences, particularly at a time experiences, particularly at a time when we are marking the 10th anniversary of the death of our friend Jo Cox, and this House has friend Jo Cox, and this House has has has marked that anniversary in a particular way and talked about

11:37

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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a particular way and talked about civility in politics. I'm very disappointed in the first instance that such comments were made, but also that it's not been followed up. I hope that the Council, here's the hon. Ladies are words today and acts because it's been a while. I think they need to get on with it.

11:37

Matt Western MP (Warwick and Leamington, Labour)

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Brent West thank you. see so many Lionesses honoured. >> In the. >> Recent King's birthday, including Jess Carter, who hails including Jess Carter, who hails from Warwick and started her career at Warwick Juniors. As we celebrate at Warwick Juniors. As we celebrate pride this month, we do so, I fear, at a time that has dark echoes of the 1930s. Sadly, in Warwickshire reforms, council leader George Fincher said that libraries are promoting contested gender ideology and has promised a comprehensive policy to combat this trend.

These are libraries that have simply had Pride Month books and displays. We should be under no illusion, Mr. Speaker, that this is clear dog whistle politics against the LGBTQ plus community. So could we have a debate on the role of our councils and how crucial they are in in

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delivering community cohesion and not division? Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that my hon. Friends council, he has his remarks because it's he has his remarks because it's important that councils do reflect the communities that they serve, Mr. Speaker, and they reflect the Mr. Speaker, and they reflect the whole of the communities that they serve. But once again, it sounds as

11:38

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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serve. But once again, it sounds as if this is a Reform Council, which is disappointing. The very people who probably voted for them with so much hope. So I do hear that they I do hope that they hear. And as I

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say, that they reflect the whole of the community that they're meant to serve. Claire Young thank you, Mr.

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Claire Young thank you, Mr. Speaker. Nearly seven years ago, National Highway spent £40 million building a ghost junction, a building a ghost junction, a junction on the M49 that was left entirely unconnected to the local entirely unconnected to the local road network. South Derbyshire Council stepped in and is on track to complete the slip road this year.

11:39

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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to complete the slip road this year. National highways now tell me the junction is unsafe and cannot open, with no timeline for remedy, meaning my constituents will continue to have lorries thundering through their villages, shredding the roads. Will the leader find time for a debate on national highways accountability for this

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farcical situation? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Must be deeply frustrating for the hon. Lady's constituents, both the hon. Lady's constituents, both in terms of the lorries thundering through, but also the frustration at not having the road network that at not having the road network that they thought that they were going to get. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, this is an ideal topic that she this is an ideal topic that she might want to raise, either as an adjournment debate or a Westminster Hall debate, so that she can hear from the Minister what might be

11:39

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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from the Minister what might be able to be done to take this matter through to completion.

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Jas Athwal thank you, Mr. Speaker. And in keeping in line with the current theme of the with the current theme of the beautiful game, the Buzzer Footballing Academy in Ilford South Footballing Academy in Ilford South have only been running for six years, and in that time the youngsters, in particular the under youngsters, in particular the under nines, have won the Echo League, the under 11 seconds and the under 13 seconds have actually won the

11:40

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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13 seconds have actually won the cups and competed abroad. Will the oh, and two of their players have now got contracts with the West Ham United are only six and eight, but they are talented and. Will the leader join me in congratulating this wonderful club, especially the quick strides they've made and the wonderful coaches and the work of the parents in the way that they have progressed so quickly and

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helped the children of Ilford South. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Football and sport in general, Mr. Speaker, provides such richness and experience to the lives of young people, which is one of the reasons why the government is providing a £400 million package for grassroots sports facilities across the UK, and I absolutely join my hon.

11:41

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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and I absolutely join my hon. Friend in congratulating Buzzer is that right? Yes. Youth Football Academy on so many incredible achievements. Wish them all the best for what I'm sure is a bright future. And also the young people

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that who have gone on to West Ham's books. So Christopher Chope. Mr. Speaker.

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Mr. Speaker. The landmark 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence by the United States takes place in by the United States takes place in the week commencing the 29th of June, and I have applied for an end June, and I have applied for an end of day adjournment debate. But will the Leader of the House enable more

11:41

Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)

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members to be able to participate in marking that historic event? >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a historic event, and I'll give some thought as to what the right hon. Gentleman is asking.

11:41

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Dan Tomlinson thank you, Mr. >> Dan Tomlinson thank you, Mr. Speaker. Everybody knows that my constituency of Gower is one of the most beautiful and the number one most beautiful and the number one tourist destination in the United Kingdom. So the safety of those who Kingdom. So the safety of those who live and visit the stunning coastline are a priority. It is a priority. Now, I heard the right

11:42

Tonia Antoniazzi MP (Gower, Labour)

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hon. Member from Orkney and Shetland ask the question about the Coast Guard rescue officers, but Coast Guard rescue officers, but will the Leader of the House make time for an urgent debate in this House on the impact of this decision to stop paying coastguard rescue officers for emergency callouts from September, following the recent Court of Appeal ruling, and what support will be provided to the volunteer Coast Guard teams, including those at Rhossili, Oxwich and Mumbles. In my constituency constituency to maintain effective

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emergency response capability. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend is a doughty fighter for her constituency and I share with her her support for and her appreciation of the work of the Coast Guard service. She will have Coast Guard service. She will have heard my response to the right hon. Gentleman and also the offer that I extended to him, that a Transport

11:43

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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extended to him, that a Transport Minister has said that he will meet concerned MPs, and I would extend that offer to my hon. Friend, or because it has, it will be affecting a number of constituencies should she seek a

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Westminster Hall debate and debate, I'm sure she'll be well attended. Tessa Munt thank you, Mr.

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Tessa Munt thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I raise the matter of repayment of overpaid corporation repayment of overpaid corporation tax identified by Her Majesty's His Majesty's Revenue and Customs after Majesty's Revenue and Customs after a company has been dissolved? So businesses in my part of Somerset have had repayments, but they're

11:43

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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have had repayments, but they're not able to cash them. It's their money, but the business doesn't exist. So the money, the cheque can't be paid in effectively and the account's been closed. Quite rightly so. Can the Leader of the House encourage the Chancellor to assess the current processes, including the transfer of such funds, to the bona Vacantia Division, so that former shareholders have solvent but dissolved companies can recover the funds in a way that's accessible, particularly for small businesses.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd draw to the attention of the hon. Lady the fact it's Treasury questions the fact it's Treasury questions next week, and therefore she might want to raise this issue, but I'll certainly raise it with Treasury

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Ministers as well to draw to their attention her remarks and see if we can get an update from the Minister. Thank you.

11:44

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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>> Mr. Speaker. >> I was delighted with the government's announcement this week that we will be banning social media for under 16 seconds, amongst media for under 16 seconds, amongst other measures, and throughout the consultation, I met with hundreds of people in Beckenham and Penge, including parents, teachers and students. But one family I met have really stuck with me. Chris and Jo

11:44

Liam Conlon MP (Beckenham and Penge, Labour)

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Barber, from Beckenham, tragically lost their wonderful son Leo, who took his own life aged just 16 in November 2023. The inquest into Leo's death found that exposure to harmful content online significantly contributed to his mental health struggles. I have been working with Chris and Jo in advocating for this change, and on Saturday I am also joining them for Saturday I am also joining them for the launch of Leo's Safe Haven, a charity they have set up to provide mental health support for other autistic children and young people.

Will the Leader of the House join me in welcoming the ban on social media as a major step forward in protecting the welfare of children and young people, and in paying tribute to the courage of bereaved parents like Chris and Jo, who turned personal tragedy into positive change for others.

11:45

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Yeah. hon. Friend sentiment about the ban on social media, which was announced earlier this week, and I join him in paying tribute to the join him in paying tribute to the bravery of Chris Jo and all the campaigners who use their tragic and unimaginable experiences to bring about change for the better. We are taking action, Mr. Speaker. We are going further than any other country to keep children safe online, and we will set out further measures in July. And in the meantime, I wish my hon.

Friend and everybody concerned all the very best for their event on Saturday.

11:46

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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Bradley Thomas thank you, Mr. Speaker. Across my constituency Speaker. Across my constituency from. Al Pinkerton, and it feels as if villages in between all of those. There is a barrage of speculative planning applications from developers who have been emboldened by this government. Yet there are by this government. Yet there are around 1 million long term empty homes in England alone, which would go a long way towards helping the government alleviate the pressure on the green belt as it seeks to deliver its housing target.

Can we please have a statement from the Minister on the government's long term empty homes strategy as soon as possible.

11:46

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker, and I certainly draw to the attention of the Housing Minister and make sure that Housing Minister and make sure that the hon. Gentleman gets an update on that. It is important, however, as he knows, because he's raised these matters before, that we do these matters before, that we do have the housing that the that the country needs. It has to be sensitive. I understand that, but sensitive. I understand that, but it is important that we get on with that. And it's also important that we deal with the question of empty

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homes. But that alone will not resolve the housing crisis that we face. Joe Morris thank you, Mr.

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Joe Morris thank you, Mr. Speaker. And can I join the Leader of the House in paying tribute to the young Northumbria Police the young Northumbria Police officer who was so sadly and tragically died last week, this tragically died last week, this week protecting and serving our week protecting and serving our region, the A1 motorway forms the boundary of my constituency at Lane.

11:47

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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There is an open play area next to cars racing past at 60 miles an hour and more. My constituents have hour and more. My constituents have raised concerns about the unsightly but more importantly, unsafe but more importantly, unsafe fencing there for a decade now and for the last five years, led by former Labour councillor Alex say former Labour councillor Alex say they have been passed from Newcastle City Council to the Highways Agency, whilst in the Highways Agency, whilst in the meantime the fencing has fallen into disrepair and in some places no longer exists, forming a clear and present danger to a whole generation of Geordie children.

The Highways Agency has finally accepted responsibility but now says that they may they may or may not fix it in next year at the earliest. So could we have a debate in parliamentary time, in business time, on how we can ensure a culture of taking responsibility amongst government agencies rather than parking passing the buck?

11:48

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend raises a very important point. And first of all, can I pay tribute to Alex Hay and everyone tribute to Alex Hay and everyone else who has campaigned about this issue? And I understand how upsetting it will have been to upsetting it will have been to particularly parents in that area. I am pleased to hear that it will be resolved, but not the timescale be resolved, but not the timescale that has been envisaged. I hope that the Highways Agency has heard my hon.

Friend, and if possible, they can do something more timely. But I'll also draw to the attention of the Transport Minister to make sure that the Highways Agency are held to account.

11:49

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

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Gideon Gideon Amos. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Taunton and Wellington people recognise the need for new homes. Indeed, they've supported thousands of new homes. supported thousands of new homes. Taunton is the town that's grown most in the south west and has a population growth 2% ahead of the national average. However, we don't accept the blinkered idea that that can't go hand in hand with protecting our most precious green spaces. The new proposed National Planning Policy Framework will make that so much harder.

The longest established environmental development charity in the world, Town and Country Planning Association has called it an unprecedented change. The public are debating it. They're having a consultation on it. Can this House not have a debate on the proposed

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new National Planning Policy Framework, which is more far Act? Thank you.

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Thank you. Speaker. If the hon. Gentleman raises understandable concerns. But as I've said before, the country as I've said before, the country does need houses, and therefore it is a question of it is a question of balance. Should should the hon. Gentleman seek a Westminster Hall debate or an adjournment debate? Now, not only will other colleagues be able to raise their concerns

11:50

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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be able to raise their concerns about their areas, but he will hear directly from the Minister responsible about.

11:50

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Health and social care partnerships across Scotland face half £1 billion worth of a funding gap in their budgets this year alone. That is the result this year alone. That is the result of years of underinvestment by the SNP, which has real life consequences because tomorrow in Renfrewshire we face the prospect of our local disability resource centre in Paisley being closed. Our Autism Connections programme cut and our day centres for adults with learning disabilities merged. So does the Leader of the House agree with me that rather than cutting vital services that my constituents rely on, the SNP government in Holyrood should invest in our communities using the record funding that they have had from

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this Labour government and put the constituents of Paisley and Renfrewshire South first. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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I, hon. Friend, is absolutely right to raise this important matter with the House this morning. The Scottish Government has had the biggest single investment since biggest single investment since devolution and therefore is absolutely right that my hon.

11:51

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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absolutely right that my hon. Friend and her constituents will be scratching their heads as to why community facilities are being lost in the way that they are being lost. I hope that the Scottish Government has heard her remarks today. She's a great champion for her constituents, and I hope that something can be done to save these

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community facilities, which are so important. Vikki Slade Mr. Speaker, those who care for our loved ones at home who care for our loved ones at home are unsung heroes and reduce the financial burden on the NHS. So it's tragic when they're subjected to harm or crime from those that they bring into their home. Yet without a carers register, families without a carers register, families are left open to abuse by those who don't have DBS or worse, aren't don't have verified training in

11:52

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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don't have verified training in first aid, dementia and safeguarding. And it's reasonable to expect the people who provide the most personal care are safe, competent and trained. Madam, madam, Mr. Speaker, I'm so sorry we undervalue those who work in care. So will the Leader of the House agree to a debate in government

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time on professional standards in social care? Mr. speaker, the hon. Lady is

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Mr. speaker, the hon. Lady is absolutely right to pay tribute to carers. They are the unsung heroes, carers. They are the unsung heroes, but certainly assure that assure her that this government respects the contribution that they make. the contribution that they make. She raises a very important point about carers and people being cared

11:52

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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about carers and people being cared for, being able to expect safety. They live their lives and therefore I will talk to the attention of the department responsible. But also she might want to raise this directly in a Westminster Hall or

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an adjournment debate. And he for the Minister directly herself. Warinder Juss thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week I visited.

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Speaker. Last week I visited. Saint Regis Church. Of England Academy in my constituency of Wolverhampton West, and I was really impressed to see the outdoor learning space and nature reserve. And this week I met nature reserve. And this week I met a young constituent in Parliament who is participating in an environmental leadership programme.

11:53

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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environmental leadership programme. Mr. speaker, I see young people having a growing passion for protecting and enjoying the environment, and in light of our commitment to protect our young people online, what alternative opportunities will this government provide so that our young people can also enjoy outdoor activities,

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our green spaces and the environment? Mr. speaker, my friend is absolutely right to raise this matter today. Alongside our action this week on social media, we're this week on social media, we're also giving every child greater access to a range of opportunities, including in nature, through the including in nature, through the Every Child Can programme. So I'd encourage my hon. Friend to apply for Westminster Hall debate and to

11:54

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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for Westminster Hall debate and to hear from the Minister about what more can be done.

11:54

Rachel Gilmour MP (Tiverton and Minehead, Liberal Democrat)

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Rachel Gilmour. Fortitude Gym in Will Stone from scratch at just 27 years old, after selling her own house amid Covid, selling her own house amid Covid, it's grown into a community wellbeing hub with classes and events and offering support to members coming back from injury, illness and addiction, one of whom went from being on crutches to running a half marathon. Outfits like hers are doing preventative health work that takes pressure off the NHS, but business rates and overheads continue to push them towards closure.

Will the Leader of the House make the case to his Treasury colleagues to commit to fairer business rate treatment for small, independent, health and fitness focussed providers so they can keep doing the vital

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preventative work the NHS relies on? Yes, thank you. Mr. Speaker. The hon. Lady will know that the the government is know that the the government is seeking to balance the monies that government needs to be able to renew public services, but also to renew public services, but also to make sure that businesses are fit, are treated fairly. I will raise are treated fairly. I will raise her concerns directly with Treasury Ministers and get her an update on what further action the government

11:55

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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what further action the government intends to take, because we do want to see community businesses and community facilities retain

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wherever possible. Wallasey thank you, Mr. Speaker. Local businesses are the backbone of our high streets, and it's on that basis that I want to congratulate Slovakia for their hugely successful opening in Morley this week, following their rip roaring success in Wortley. And roaring success in Wortley. And should you find yourself in our part of the world, Mr. Speaker, you and the Leader of the House are

11:55

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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and the Leader of the House are very welcome to join me any time. And given that this government is back on our high streets with £10 million for high street rental auctions to get those empty shops filled, can we have a debate on

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this and the other things we can do to help genuine local businesses? Thank you.

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Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I certainly join my hon. Friend in celebrating the successes of Lucky Corner, because, successes of Lucky Corner, because, as I've just said, small businesses are at the heart of our economy and we are committed to supporting them. we are committed to supporting them. We will bring forward our high street strategy later this year and build on our work to regenerate

11:56

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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build on our work to regenerate high streets across the country. I would encourage my hon. Friend, perhaps, to apply for an adjournment debate so that he and other hon. Members, because this is a theme of today's deliberations, that we can raise ideas on how best we can further support local businesses.

11:56

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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Tom Gordon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to start by putting on record a tribute to former councillor Jeanette Sunderland for many by elections taking place today, but elections taking place today, but the one in idle and factory in Bradford took is taking place as a result of her tragic passing. Earlier this year she had a record of over 30 years serving the community and she was a true Yorkshire liberal. Looking back to the weekend that's just been and gone, I took part and attended the Great Knaresborough Bed Race, which is celebrating its 60th year.

It was a fantastic event. The population has nearly doubled for the day. One of the challenges that came with that was the the capacity came with that was the the capacity when it came to Wi-Fi and also cellular networks, which meant that local businesses actually struggled to trade on the day. I wondered if the Leader of the House might be able to arrange a meeting with relevant government departments to relevant government departments to make sure that when we have this event next year, people can get the trade into their businesses, pubs, shops and more.

11:57

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Leader.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me pay tribute to Councillor Sunderland work to and send Sunderland work to and send condolences to her friend and family. We may not have shared politics, a political stand point politics, a political stand point of view, but we certainly respect people who serve their local communities. I just want to put that on record. It sounds as if the great Knaresborough bed race is great Knaresborough bed race is something to behold, but I will, I will raise, I will raise the matter with a Minister.

If he wants a meeting with the relevant Minister, I'll help him to get one.

11:58

Mary Glindon MP (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend, Labour)

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Mary Glindon thank.

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You, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituent Abdul faces phase

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My constituent Abdul faces phase three on the day cancellations to his asylum interview due to challenges securing an interpreter. challenges securing an interpreter. He then had a fourth interview in his second language in which he's not proficient. He is now appealing not proficient. He is now appealing his decision on the basis he was unable to answer questions to the best of his ability. With his best of his ability. With his appeal date next month, he faces his fifth trip to London without an interpreter being present.

Will the leader ask the relevant Minister to make a statement on what steps the government is taking to tackle interpreter related interview cancellations for people like Abdul?

11:59

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you. Friend raises a distressing case. I'm not surprised that she does so because she has an outstanding because she has an outstanding record of working hard on behalf of her constituents, and I want to put that on record, too. If she provides me with the details of the case in writing, I'll make sure that the Home Office receives them and that she does get a response from the relevant Minister.

11:59

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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Clive Jones. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Eight months after changes to FP69, flagging GPS in Wokingham remain flagging GPS in Wokingham remain concerned that many patients are marked for removal from lists are from ethnic minority backgrounds or other vulnerable groups. Will the leader make time for DHS? C Ministers to update the House on whether an equality impact assessment has been undertaken, or whether one is planned?

11:59

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can't give the hon. Gentleman an answer off the top of my head, but I will draw it to the attention of health Ministers and get him the update that he seeks.

12:00

Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)

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Lillian Jones thank you, Madam Speaker. I was absolutely delighted to be able to congratulate Auchinleck Talbot Football Club Auchinleck Talbot Football Club from my constituency on their recent remarkable achievement in winning the Scottish Junior Cup for a record 15th time. Now. The bot came from behind to defeat their Ayrshire rivals Largs Thistle, demonstrating resilience, determination and community spirit that has made the club one of the most successful and respected names across Scottish junior football. The Leader of the House join me to congratulate them once again and also the volunteers, the supporters in all at the club on this outstanding success and acknowledge the important role of local football clubs in playing in the roles that they play for local communities, and bringing together and inspiring our young people.

12:00

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Leader. >> Madam Deputy Speaker absolutely, John. My hon. Friend, in congratulating the local team and club on an outstanding achievement, local football clubs indeed, sporting clubs play such an important part in our local important part in our local communities. And in this occasion, not only will they celebrate success, but I'm sure they'll be watching the television and and looking at the performance of their national team, and maybe even dreaming that they may be part of that in the future.

12:01

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Just to say to the Leader of the House and as far as Leader of the House and as far as the Leader of the House will always be the king of the North, as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that I'm concerned, and I believe that many others in this House will will also be of the same opinion anyway. Will the Leader of the House ask a Foreign Secretary to make a statement on freedom of religion or belief in Vietnam? Following the arrest of Pastor Suu Kyi and the church member Suu Duck and Gai Lai Province on the 1st of June on charges of undermining national unity and on what representations the government has made to Vietnamese authorities on the use of national security provisions against Christians and other much.

12:02

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, as ever, the hon. Gentleman raises a serious matter, and I pay tribute for his matter, and I pay tribute for his tireless work in this regard. He knows that the UK is committed to defending freedom of religion and belief for all, and we have regularly raised concerns regarding freedom of religion or belief in Vietnam with the Vietnamese government, including through the work of our Special Envoy of freedom and religious belief. My hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland, and we will continue to do so, and I'll make sure that the hon.

Gentleman gets a response from the relevant Minister.

12:02

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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Steve Race. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Dartmoor ponies are vital for the biodiversity of the moor and the economy of the South West. They're economy of the South West. They're so iconic that they feature as the logo of the national park. However, the policies of Natural England have already meant that the population of ponies has fallen from over 5000 ten years ago to under 1000 today. The Prime Minister and DEFRA have made clear that they do not support any pony, whether by design or by default.

Will the leader allocate time for a debate on the role of Natural England and its responsibilities to deliver on the Fursdon review?

12:03

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for raising I thank my hon. Friend for raising this matter, which I know has caused some concern in the way caused some concern in the way after it has been reported. As such, Dartmoor ponies are an important part of Dartmoor heritage, and there are an important part of supporting the habitats of Dartmoor. Natural England are not recommending a call. I don't believe it's actually in their power to do anything about it anyway.

And let me just put quite clearly on record the government would not allow one.

12:03

Rt Hon Rishi Sunak MP (Richmond and Northallerton, Conservative)

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Rishi Sunak. >> Rishi Sunak. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituents and I are deeply My constituents and I are deeply concerned with proposals to develop what would be one of England's largest onshore wind farms, right next to the Yorkshire Dales National Park. Obviously, this will have a huge impact on the visual landscape, one of our most beautiful parts of the country, with turbines that are as tall as the Gherkin, but also potentially damage our precious peatland in the moors, which is the hon.

Gentleman, the right hon. Gentleman know is a natural resource which we are lucky to have. Will he join me in praising the work of Councillor Thompson and the Hope More Windfarm Action Group for organising our community and will he support both their and my efforts to make sure that our local voices are heard loudly during this process?

12:04

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm. It's good to see the right hon. Gentleman in his place. I think number ten would have been a think number ten would have been a rough place to be, but it sounds as if he's been in the wars more recently, perhaps of a different nature. But he's right to raise this matter on behalf of his local constituency. And I know his his area well. It is a very beautiful part of the world, and I understand the concern that people have there.

And I do pray. Offer my congratulations to Councillor Thompson and the local people in raising their concerns. Whatever the outcome, it is important that local people do have their voices heard because it's very much part of their heritage going forward.

12:05

Alex Mayer MP (Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, Labour)

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Alex Mayer thank. >> Recent heat wave, bus drivers reported soaring temperatures in their cabs and steering wheels that in some cases were literally too in some cases were literally too hot to handle. Would the Leader of the House consider bringing forward a debate in government time on maximum working temperatures as the climate change? This is going to be of increasing issue to workers across the country.

12:05

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And again, I pay tribute to my hon. And again, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her diligent campaigning on this matter. The government is absolutely committed to ensuring absolutely committed to ensuring workplaces are safe in the modern world, and we have committed to looking at how to modernise health and safety guidance for extreme temperatures. As part of this, the Health and Safety Executive is reviewing the approved Code of Practice for the workplace regulations to ensure that they are fit for purpose and at the

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appropriate time. I am sure that the relevant Minister would want to update the House. Leigh Ingham thank you, Madam

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Leigh Ingham thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Morrisons has proposed. Closing its shop in Highfield, which hosts a local post office now. Closing.

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Closing. This would. Remove a. Vital service from our community. People rely on it every.

12:06

Leigh Ingham MP (Stafford, Labour)

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>> People rely on it every. >> Day for banking bill payments for many, for many residents, particularly older people and those without access to a car, the without access to a car, the nearest alternative in rising Brook is not a realistic option, and it's also open for much shorter hours, which wouldn't serve the needs of many of my constituents. Now, I've already met with Morrisons and Post Office to raise these points, but with the Leader of the House grant a debate on the role of post offices in local communities.

And I know that it isn't just impacting my community, it's across the country. Recognising accessibility is key so that members can discuss the impact of the loss of these services can have on residents who depend on these services for day to day activities.

12:06

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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And we certainly recognise the impact that closures have on impact that closures have on communities and access to essential services. And I hope even at this services. And I hope even at this late stage, that a hunt for an alternative site is found. We are calling. This week we open a call for evidence as part of the Access to Banking review, and I urge her and other members across the House to contribute to that and make their voices known. Should she wish to follow up on the specific local example that she has in her constituency, then I'd encourage you to apply for an adjournment debate.

12:07

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Chris Bloore thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek the guidance Deputy Speaker. I seek the guidance of the Leader of the House. A constituent of mine. David, has raised serious concerns regarding the handling of a deeply the handling of a deeply distressing paternity case involving a child taken out of the country, later confirmed to be his daughter. Key lines of inquiry by West Midlands Police were not pursued and evidence later relied on has been found to be false, with proceedings in Latvia having experienced significant delays and errors and concerns remaining regarding the child's welfare and contact with the father.

How would the Leader of the House suggest I support my constituent and help reunite this father and daughter as soon as possible?

12:07

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm sorry to hear of his constituents distressing situation. If my hon. Friend writes to me with If my hon. Friend writes to me with the details, I'm sure that the relevant Minister will get a response to him or if he wishes to speak to the Minister directly, I'll help him to arrange that meeting.

12:08

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Patricia Ferguson thank you, >> Patricia Ferguson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituents successfully took his employer to an industrial tribunal. employer to an industrial tribunal. A financial award was made to him, but it was never paid. He knows that the current enforcement system is ineffective, and I'm aware, too, that Ministers are working to provide a better system to ensure that people like my constituent receive the payments they are due. Can the leader update me on the House on progress so far, and would a debate on the issue be of use to Ministers in teasing out the many issues that are no doubt involved?

12:08

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My friend is raising a concerning matter. The law is clear workers should receive the payments that should receive the payments that they are entitled to. We are committed to strengthening enforcement options and as she alludes to, DBT and Minister of Justice have also set up the Dispute Resolution System Task Force to provide insights into feedback on longer term solutions system reform proposals, and I will ensure that she receives an update on that work.

12:09

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Chris Vince thank. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> The leader will be aware of the long term funding challenges facing our palliative. >> Care sector.

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Care sector. And due to real term funding cuts over many years. As a result, Sinclair's hostage in my constituency, Harlow, are consulting on streamlining services. consulting on streamlining services. I know the government is, and I welcome the fact that the government is publishing the modern services framework in autumn, and I met with the Minister to discuss this yesterday. But can the Leader of the House find time to discuss time?

12:09

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And again, my hon. Friend is right to raise this important matter, and we do recognise the difficult financial situation that many hospices are facing. We have supported the hospice sector in England with £125 million capital funding boost, but I would encourage my hon. Friend to apply for a Westminster Hall debate, not just to raise the local concerns that he has, but I know they are shared by other colleagues across the House and hear from the Minister directly.

12:10

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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John Slinger thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I'm sure I speak Deputy Speaker. I'm sure I speak for all honourable and right hon. Members when I say that it's a privilege to serve our constituents in this place. We have a multifaceted role. There are many things that backbench MPs can do in this place, some welcome and some perhaps not so welcome. Sometimes backbenchers even get above their station, such as the allure of high office. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder if the Leader of the House could let me know if time could be found in government time to debate the role of the Member of Parliament.

There is, as we know, no job description. There is perhaps no employer save our constituents. And when I thought about this, perhaps there isn't even a government department that could answer. But I do think it's important that we debate and suggest ideas in addition to those we can send to the modernisation committee, as I have done repeatedly about how we can improve the role of an MP because it's much misunderstood, some might say under-resourced, and we can probably do better. Thank you.

12:11

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, and the >> Madam Deputy Speaker, and the hon. Gentleman raises a fascinating issue, and I agree that the role of issue, and I agree that the role of an MP has evolved, but is of no less importance than it was. As he says, there is no job description for an MP, and each MP will have a different interpretation of their role, both as a constituency MP representative, but also scrutinising government and legislation. He raises the issue in the context of metro mayors, and in my experience, it often comes down to the personal relationship and the way in which metro mayors regard their powers and their job, and also how MPs might work more closely with them.

Because at the end of the day, Madam Deputy Speaker, it doesn't matter what party people come from as much as what are we prepared to do collectively to serve the constituency constituencies and indeed the regions. The metro mayors and MPs will represent? The government is absolutely determined, however, that we shift power out of Westminster with more local decision making, better services and a stronger voice for local people, which means that the this debate will rumble on and my hon. Friend, I'm sure, may want to find forums in which the House can debate these matters going forward.

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Can I. Thank the leader for his statement this morning, and I'll allow a couple of moments for the allow a couple of moments for the allow a couple of moments for the front benches to swap over. We now come to the Select Committee come to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee. Dame Chi Onwurah will speak for up to ten minutes, during which no interventions will be taken. At the conclusion of her statement, I will call members to ask questions on the subject of the statement, which should be brief questions, not should be brief questions, not speeches.

Can I emphasise that questions should be directed to the Select Committee Chair and not the Select Committee Chair and not the relevant government Minister? However, frontbenchers may take part in questioning. I call Dame part in questioning. I call Dame Chi Onwurah.

12:13

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the First Special Report of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee, Flying Blind: Innovation, Growth and the Regions: Government response, HC 271

Yes.

12:13

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for this statement. I'm speaking on behalf statement. I'm speaking on behalf of the science, Innovation and Technology Select Committee. I want to put on record my thanks to the to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks and specialists who have supported this inquiry. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are told Madam Deputy Speaker, we are told on a daily, if not hourly basis that the source of all our that the source of all our political, public service and economic woes is the lack of economic growth.

The Labour government was elected on a platform of delivering economic growth across the country, around its unashamedly place based modern industrial strategy, and across the UK we have world class scientific research institutions and universities, two of which are in my constituency, Newcastle University and Northumbria University. Indeed, the importance of the innovation ecosystem is reflected in the government's pledge to spend £86 billion of public money on on on R&D and by 2030, and to leverage at least £3 of private investment for every £1 of public investment.

So the committee launched its inquiry in December 2024 to assess the role of our innovation ecosystem in achieving this government's wider economic growth mission across the UK. Our call for evidence assessed the role of structural factors in influencing the success of Start-ups spin outs and other innovation focussed enterprises. These included the tax system, regulatory requirements and standards. Across six sessions, we heard from innovators, from investors, local and regional leaders, universities, Ministers, Ukri and innovate UK and I would like to place on record my thanks to those who gave evidence.

By doing so, they really helped us to shape our report and we are very grateful. Our report, entitled Flying Blind Innovation Growth in the regions, was published in March. Profound policy mistakes have led to a multi-decade failure to foster geographically, even economic growth from a productivity and GDP per head perspective. We are two nations, Greater London and the South East and everywhere else. As of last year, GDP per head in the UK averaged just over £39,000.

Every region in the country is below that, apart from the South east at £41,000 and London at a whopping £69,000. My committee's report found that if the 86 billion of public funds is accompanied by unlocking private investment across the country to commercialise innovation, it could deliver regional economic growth and therefore better living standards and quality of life for all our constituents. But whilst we welcome the government's commitment to including a 500 million fund for regional innovation clusters, that is less than 1% of our public

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research spend, the work of our committee member and former Minister, the Member for Mid Norfolk rightly emphasised the power of clusters, and our report found that there is still untapped found that there is still untapped potential for innovation driven activity across the regions, with an increase in the number of an increase in the number of innovation led clusters. Regional inequalities continue to persist inequalities continue to persist with R&D funding. The Golden Triangle between Oxford, Cambridge and London receives significant public funding and private investment, absorbing 46% of non-business R&D.

Despite having only 36% of the population. There are centres of excellence in across the country and whilst the Minister for science asserted that cutting edge research is best carried out in centres of excellence, we found that there are centres of excellence across the country in Cardiff, Durham, Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester, Milton Keynes and Newcastle amongst many others. Geographic clusters can drive productivity, foster concentrated networks and of expertise, infrastructure and collaboration and support regional growth. Their success relies on sustained investment, established infrastructure and skills concentration.

We have said that the government should establish a national framework for cluster development that embeds regional key performance indicators. We said that the government should take a data driven approach and comprehensively monitor, map and support the growth of innovation led clusters across the region to support clusters. We also found that the government should publish annual data covering the performance and impact of innovation clusters. These should set out any gaps around infrastructure skills and commercialisation outcomes, and detail how public investment is being used across different parts of the country.

Throughout our inquiry, we heard a major shortfalls in gathering and sharing data related to innovation policy, meaning that currently there is no way to track the pipeline from R&D research to capital investment company growth and wider economic benefit. There is no system that brings together the data on all research and innovation spending across the public sector. The Public Accounts Committee noted in July last year that Ukri aimed to link up all such data across government, but had given not no target date for this, and that there are significant limitations in its data systems that make it hard to manage its Budget strategically.

So we concluded that the UK is flying blind when it comes to public and private R&D spending, and it is unacceptable that we cannot measure and map R&D spending and private sector investment. So the Secretary of State rightly told us of her desire to leverage public funds to unlock private investment in innovation led activity across the country, but without clear, transparent measures of what is being done and its impact, it's impossible to access existing policies or identify improvements.

So I would like to thank the government for their response, which which is published on Tuesday. And there's much to welcome within it, particularly the joint contribution from across government from DSIT MHCLGDBTDF Treasury and the Cabinet. We welcome the government's agreement with the key thematic areas highlighted within our report, as well as the acceptance and acceptance, the need for better data. More specifically, the promise of a more robust and joined up approach to monitoring the development of innovation clusters over time is a step in the right direction.

The government also committed to doing more to help innovators access public funding and, crucially, to prioritising the procurement of innovation. The best way for government to support the development of sovereign UK alternatives to global technical technology providers, and I note and welcome the government's recent directions to Ministers on this topic. However, I am disappointed by the government's rejection of our call to establish a framework for monitoring cluster development and the fact that they did not designate a Minister responsible for championing innovation in each region of the UK, leaving us only with a Minister for Cambridge and Oxford Innovation, who is also the Minister for science.

They have argued that supporting the establishment of Midlands mine Forge or Northern Gritstone is not what they should be doing and have not accepted our recommendation to establish regional branches of the British Business Bank. So. So by by failing to accept these recommendations, the government is depending too heavily on an industrial strategy which does not have appropriate regional data. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, we chose to title our report Flying Blind, because that was the best summary of successive governments approach to innovation policy.

But regional growth and development can transform a region and rebalance our nation's economy, helping to address the inequalities which drive division. Greater Manchester is an example of this and the mayor, Andy Burnham leadership. We have seen a 3% annual growth sustained over ten years faster than London and underperforming twice as well as the UK as a whole. That shows the power of regional leadership and investment. The current government deserves credit for backing our national research and development ecosystem ecosystem, but without a clearer picture of what works for different regions and greater engagement with local leaders on what support their local innovation ecosystems need, we will continue to be flying blind.

12:23

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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Gordon. I welcome the report and thank the chair of the Select Committee for her diligent work on it. When it comes to Yorkshire, we receive less comes to Yorkshire, we receive less funding per head for across the board when it comes to transport, school funding and importantly, health research funding. We know that Yorkshire receives a quarter of that which London does when it comes to funding per head, and that's despite seeing a worse cancer incidence and cancer outcomes when it comes to those key health aspects.

So does the chair of the Select Committee agree with me that when it comes to that regional imbalance, if we want to see health inequalities tackled, then that needs to start with making sure that research funding is better allocated across our regions. Thank.

12:23

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I first thank the hon. Member for his contribution to the Select Committee, where he sat on Select Committee, where he sat on it, and he is absolutely right to trace the link between research, funding and key issues such as health inequalities, which we also suffer from in the north east of England. And he's right also to identify the need to address the differences in in health research funding and without the appropriate data and information on it, it is hard to do so.

But he is right. He he's right to look to that, to be addressed by the government. And we shall be looking to the actions of both the DSIT and the Department for Health and Social Security Social care on. In this area. John Slinger.

12:24

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. It's very interesting and it's very, very important. Might I briefly draw her attention Might I briefly draw her attention to the agreement between Rugby Borough Council and Frasers Group, who are setting up their global HQ in my constituency, and the agreement has meant that Frasers Group is providing are providing £10 million for a training and innovation hub in Rugby town centre, which is much needed. Does she agree that encouraging businesses such as Frasers Group and many others to invest in towns, not just cities, is vital, and that we also need to remind our colleagues in government that while cities are wonderful and attract lots of investment, they have a lot going for them already and we need to do more for our towns.

And what she said in her statement gives me some hope in that regard.

12:25

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for for that question, and he is absolutely that question, and he is absolutely right. And let me let me join him in paying tribute to Frasers Group. Innovation and its benefits are for Innovation and its benefits are for everyone across our country, and that is particularly important in towns which may traditionally not have seen the benefits and particularly in particularly having well, they may have done in centuries past, but not so recently, and particularly having a local employer and business drive innovation and innovation sustained jobs into his town is of benefit to his constituents, not just now, but in the future.

12:25

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Jim Shannon Madam Deputy Speaker, can I first of all, thank the hon. Lady, chair of the committee for the report and for the Select the report and for the Select Committee as well, and the hon. Lady has identified clearly the shortcomings in relation to the regions when it comes to innovation, regions when it comes to innovation, growth and where we are. And can I ask the hon. Lady this question, in relation to discussions that the hon.

Lady would have had with the Northern Ireland Assembly and perhaps with the Minister as well, in identifying the shortcomings when it comes to regional funding for us in Northern Ireland, what discussions and what recommendations were put forward to improve that? Thank you.

12:26

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Let me thank the hon. Member for >> Let me thank the hon. Member for his question. He was always a champion of the of of Northern champion of the of of Northern Ireland. And I also want to congratulate him on the innovation that the and examples of innovation and economic and its contribution to economic growth that the Committee did find in in Northern Ireland. In terms of specific discussions, we did not have specific discussions with Ministers with regard to that when the Minister came before the Committee.

But he raises a very good point, and I'm very happy to take that up with him.

12:27

Mary Glindon MP (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend, Labour)

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Mary Glindon thank you. time for my neighbour. >> For her statement. >> And does she agree with me that devolved administration, such as the North East Combined Authority, have the local knowledge to inspire, to support, to drive and encourage innovation and growth, and places in places like our very own Tyneside.

12:27

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Thank you. >> I'm very immensely grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour for her question. And she's absolutely her question. And she's absolutely right. As I as I highlighted in my concluding remarks, we've seen in Greater Manchester, where the mayor has had over ten years now to make such a difference, that that that having local leadership, which we also see this in Liverpool as well, local leadership, which values innovation and knows the local economies, needs and skills and strengths can really drive regional growth.

And I know that the combat that the mayor, the mayor, the combined authority, Kim McGuinness, is fully seized of the importance of innovation in driving great jobs and a sustainable economy in the Tyneside.

12:28

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Yes. Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend and the Select Committee for their report. I wonder if my hon. Friend can say a little more about the role of the Scottish Government in this area, and whether the Select Committee had any observations about the relationship between the Scottish Government and the UK government on this, because, obviously she's made reference to the role of devolution in this space and whether that relationship is securing the gathering and sharing of data that she might expect and that she raised in her statement.

And if not, what more can be done in that regard?

12:29

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Laura. question, and we looked in particular at the innovation in ecosystems around around Edinburgh and around around Aberdeen as well. And we found, obviously, there are fantastic examples of world leadership in scientific research and innovation in Scotland. But we did not but we did not find the collection of regional data at a level that could enable us to, to, to measure effectively what what works best. And there were some concerns about the funding of research, particularly sort of research intensive, high intensity research across Scotland.

But I'd be willing to to discuss that in more detail with those Leigh Ingham.

12:30

Leigh Ingham MP (Stafford, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for her report. I find it fascinating, a statistic I can't get out of my head that in the get out of my head that in the cities around the UK in the last ten years, we've seen growth accelerate at a rate of 10.7%. But in our towns it has been almost half that. It's been 5.4%. And we know that our towns were the hubs of the industrial revolution, the innovation that took place there.

So does my hon. Friend agree with me that any plan from this government must have towns at its heart to support the innovation and the good jobs that come with it.

12:30

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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James Frith. >> James Frith. >> Let me thank my hon. Friend for that question. And she is absolutely right. And of course, in absolutely right. And of course, in the North-East, our great history of industrial innovation and growth of industrial innovation and growth was based around towns as well as as well as cities. And that is what we must aspire to again. And the, the, the focus on looking on clusters and data enables us should, would enable us through the industrial Strategy, which is so much to be welcomed and supported, to ensure that we can drive innovation across our region, and particularly look at at hubs which are based around around towns as well as around cities.

And there is much good work done by universities that we found in having a, a hubs in towns which drive particular as well as and around the region, which can drive innovation and therefore with the right support, also growth. Speaker.

12:31

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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My colleague has stolen my >> My colleague has stolen my thunder about. Speaking of which, I will never forgive her for. But I thank. I thank the hon. Member for thank. I thank the hon. Member for her report and I am going to bang on about towns because this report's title perfectly describes the frustrations and the situation in Redditch. We sit at the heart of a precision and research engineering supply chain, contributing millions to the economy. Yet we receive a fraction of the R&D funding from government or from private investment.

And so would she agree with me that to support those excellent firms and Redditch, we need that granular regional tracking so that we get the metrics in place so that we can support those clusters that exist outside towns and outside metro areas, so that we can actually grow our towns and get the regional growth and the national growth that this government so desperately wants.

12:32

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and let me say that one can never and let me say that one can never bang on too much about towns and innovation and growth. That is what all our constituents across our country deserve, because it is only by having growth across the country, in every town that they that we will address the the, the cost of living crisis and the economic conditions that we need to improve. And when it comes to Redditch, he's absolutely right to say that we need to understand the what innovation is happening around there and what is works best with in concert with local leaders to ensure that Redditch and towns in his area are getting the support for innovation which they deserve and which they can put to the best use for his constituents and indeed for all our constituents.

12:33

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the First Report of the Justice Committee, Courts and Tribunals Bill, HC 192

Can I thank the Select Committee Chair for that statement? We now come to the Select Committee come to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Justice Committee. Andy Slaughter will speak for up to ten minutes, during which there will be no which there will be no interventions, and at the conclusion of his statement, I will call members to ask questions on the subject of the statement, which should be brief questions directed to the Select Committee Chair and not the Minister. Frontbenchers may, of course, take part should they wish.

I call Andy Slaughter.

12:33

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the Backbench and thank you to the Backbench Business Committee for making time for this statement. The Courts and Tribunals Bill was introduced in February as a response to the Crown Court crisis. There were over 80,000 outstanding cases as of December 2025, with some trials being listed into 2030. This harms victims, defendants and witnesses alike. We recognise the urgency of that crisis and acknowledge the. Continuing with the status quo is not an option.

In response to the crisis, the government commissioned Sir Brian Leveson to conduct his independent review of criminal courts, which has been published in two extensive parts and makes 180 recommendations to address the crisis and reduce the backlog. The government's bill has been informed by Sir Brian's review, although it deviates from his recommendations in some key areas. Last Wednesday, the Justice Committee published a report setting out our critique of the Courts and Tribunals Bill based on three oral evidence sessions and over 130 written submissions.

And could I take this opportunity to thank all those who have contributed to that report, in particular, committee members of all parties, many of which are here today. And of course, our secretariat, our report puts forward recommendations to improve the bill and draws attention to some of its unintended consequences. Our report aims to inform further scrutiny of the Bill in both houses. I note we do not yet have a confirmed date for the bill's return to this House for report, and I hope that we will have that soon.

The government introduced the bill without publishing a formal response to part one of Sir Brian Levison's review. The government also declined to allow the Justice Committee to conduct Pre-legislative scrutiny of the bill. We instead launched our inquiry a matter of days after the bill's publication, as we felt this landmark piece of legislation required proper, in-depth parliamentary scrutiny. We know it is hard for the government to change course once the bill is introduced, but this is an area where the government should have enabled more parliamentary input before pushing forward with a bill, particularly given that the bill's provisions will not come into force until March 2028 at the earliest.

Our report is analytical, but crucially, it is constructive and aims to improve. Rather than dismiss what the government has proposed. It covers all clauses of the Bill dealing with reform of the criminal courts. But I will focus my remarks on a few key areas. First, let me address the impact on magistrates courts, which will significantly increase owing to the removal of the right for defendants to elect Crown Court trial and by increasing magistrates sentencing powers. Our principal finding on this point is that we're not convinced that the magistrates court will be able to cope.

It seems unrealistic to propose that 7000 magistrates can be recruited in three years, so there will be 21,000 magistrates by 2029. Previous recruitment campaigns have fallen far short of their targets. Retention also remains a persistent challenge and there is a chronic shortage of suitably, suitably qualified legal advisers. The government must demonstrate in more detail than it has done so far that expanding capacity in the magistrates court is deliverable. As part of that, we recommend that the government should significantly increase the number of salaried district judges.

They must also ensure that the pay of legal advisers matches comparable legal roles in the public sector. The government seeks the authority to increase magistrates sentencing powers to 18 months or even 24 months, double what they are now. Until recently, the maximum was six months. Then from October 2020 for 12 months. Sir Brian said this should be set permanently at 12 months and the government should not be able to vary it at will. We say at the least, any change should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and debated in Parliament.

Otherwise, every time there is a peak in prison numbers, the government will shift magistrates sentencing powers down to 6 or 12 months and then back up to 18 or 24 when they stabilise again. On appeals from the magistrates court. We recognise the government's concern that as more cases are retained, unmanaged growth in appeal volumes could place additional pressure on the Crown Court. We also accept that the current automatic right to a full rehearing can, in some cases, place a stressful burden on victims and witnesses.

However, appeals currently represent a small and declining proportion of overall Crown Court receipts, with only 0.4% of magistrates Court decisions appealed in 2025. They are resolved quickly and with a high success rate, suggesting that the right to a full rehearing plays an important role in correcting wrongful outcomes. The Bill provides for the introduction of audio recording in magistrates courts for trial and sentencing. This would allow for an accurate record of proceedings to be transcribed in support of an appeal.

Several submissions we received raised concerns about the scale of such an undertaking and the practicalities of equipping magistrates courts with the necessary facilities. It would benefit no one if changes were introduced before these recording systems were properly functioning, or if they subsequently failed. We recommend any changes to magistrates appeals should only be introduced once. Recording of all Magistrates Court proceedings have been introduced and is, and they're proving to be operating effectively. The main public and professional criticism of the Bill has been around judge only trials and the creation of a Crown Court bench division.

Our report focuses more on the question of whether this will work in practice than the principles of the reform. We decided the proposal to introduce judge only trials hangs on allocation to a jury trial or to the Bench Division. This will be done by an assessment of the first hearing in the Crown Court as to whether the defendant would receive a sentence of three years or more. While many cases will be straightforward, overall, the allocation process could consume a significant amount of court time and judicial resource.

We think the three year threshold for deciding which sort of trial a defendant needs or a defendant gets will lead to more consideration. At present, when magistrates decide whether a case should be allocated to the Crown Court, they consider the length of the potential sentence, but they can also consider the circumstances of the case. Should not the Crown Court also be able to say this case is likely to have a sentence of less than three years, but it should still have a jury trial? We conclude that the allocation process, as currently designed, is likely to be complex, time consuming, time consuming and will lead to unintended consequences.

Reliance on likely sentence length as the sole criteria will mean that defendants with previous convictions are more likely to face a jury trial than those without, and that children are less likely to face a jury than adults accused of the same offence. We recommend that children should be exempt from being tried in the bench division. We also raised concerns that the predicted 20% time saving of judge only trials so heavily relied upon in both the Bill and for Brian's review, lacks sufficient evidential basis.

Finally, on equality, we share the concerns of many in the justice sector around the potential equality impacts of the bill, particularly in relation to race, an unreformed justice system already perpetuates a range of inequalities, and we don't feel that the government have tackled these head on through the bill. The bill proposes to expand the role of both the magistrates court and the judge only Crown Court proceedings, while reducing the role of juries. The Lammy review in 2017 concluded that juries are one of the few areas of the criminal justice system where black and ethnic minority defendants do not face disproportionate outcomes.

It is shocking that only 1% of crown Court judges are black, a figure that has not changed since 2015. This has serious implications for the trust that black defendants may have in the bench division, where judges will sit alone. We recommend that the government takes action to improve progression routes to the senior judiciary, and that it sets a clear national target to achieve a representative judiciary and magistracy by 2035. To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, we recognise the need to reform our criminal justice system and commend the government for commissioning the Leveson Review and proposing comprehensive reforms.

We hope, however, that they will take note of our recommendations, which we believe would improve the Bill while maintaining the core values of justice and fairness in our criminal justice system. Thank you.

12:43

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I should put on record that I voted for an record that I voted for an alternative report, which I felt better reflected my concerns. But I do accept that the report is a fair do accept that the report is a fair reflection of the committee's view. Given that the last recruitment drive for magistrates failed to deliver the much needed uplift at that point, and the expansion of the magistrate led trials, adding further pressure, does he agree that the government should publish regular statistics on magistrate recruitment to ensure that they're

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2029? For those comments? And she's right to mention that there was a right to mention that there was a dissenting report which wasn't approved by the committee. The approved by the committee. The others may wish to raise that issue from. From my point of view, what was reassuring is that the analysis was reassuring is that the analysis in both reports was very similar, and I hope I've correctly reflected today some of those concerns, what today some of those concerns, what the outcome of those concerns should be may have been a matter of differences between different parties, but that all adds to the spice of life on, on, on select committees.

I absolutely agree with her in relation to magistrates. So much attention has formed around the issue of judge only trials, and that is clearly of crucial importance. But this Bill will succeed or fail on the recruitment and indeed the type and nature of magistrates court proceedings. They're being asked to do a huge amount of heavy lifting, and it's certainly only fair that the certainly only fair that the government keeps us regularly updated with its progress.

12:44

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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Gurinder Josan thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend will know that there has been quite a bit of opposition to having judge only trials, given that only 1% of the judiciary are black. Does he the judiciary are black. Does he agree with me that it makes it even more urgent now for us to look at more urgent now for us to look at how the judiciary is appointed, because something does appear to be seriously wrong with the selection procedure.

12:45

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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Andy Slaughter.

12:45

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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very assiduous member of the of the Committee and indeed the. In the Committee and indeed the. In the same week we published this report, we published our report on pre-application Pre-appointment pre-application Pre-appointment hearing for the new Jack chair, and hearing for the new Jack chair, and we feel very strongly that the government needs to look at judicial appointments and judicial judicial appointments and judicial progression, because that clearly is not working at the moment. And it undermined the credibility of a judiciary, which we all take a huge pride in.

If it is not reflective of the population at large. That was true before this bill. It's even more true after it.

12:45

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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Tessa Munt thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I too voted for the minority Report, mainly because I'm minority Report, mainly because I'm particularly concerned that this goes so much further. The government is going so much further government is going so much further than the Leveson Report. So I want to speak about judge or ask about judge only trials. And I just wonder whether the hon. Gentleman agrees that if the magistrates entering sentencing powers are increased to 24 months, it's not impossible that cases up to two and a half years could be retained by magistrates courts, which might mean that there's really very little work for the Crown Court Bench Division, and they'll only have a narrow tranche of potential cases.

And I just wondered whether there might be some merit, whether the Oliver Dowden feels there might be some merit in actually looking at other jurisdictions and seeing whether there are other mechanisms to allocate cases which might be Slaughter.

12:46

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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Yeah, again, I'm very grateful >> Yeah, again, I'm very grateful to our friend who again, is a very assiduous member of the committee, and I appreciate what she says about important respects in which the government, without evidencing the reasons for that, has departed from Leveson, for example, where the magistrates should sit with the judge in the in in the in the bench Division. I think she makes a very good point that because the government has deviated from what Leveson recommended, you now have this really quite narrow window between what can happen in the magistrates court and what is left for the for the Crown Court Bench Division to do, I think the government will have to to look at that again.

Otherwise we are. I'm sure some members may think that's a good thing because they're not very supportive of the Crown Court Bench Division in any event. But we have to have a system that has credibility and works seamlessly in that way.

12:47

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon Madam Deputy Speaker can I first of all, thank the hon. Gentleman for. Hammersmith and Gentleman for. Hammersmith and Chiswick for his recommendations and many of the recommendations in the gentleman put forward are the gentleman put forward are specific to England and Wales, and we thank them. But there are recommendations put forward, many recommendations put forward which could be helpful for us in in Northern Ireland. I always ask this question because it's important that it is put on record. Has the Committee and the hon.

Gentleman had the chance to suggest that those recommendations would be helpful, could be helpful to us in Northern Ireland because it would be given improvement UK wide. We really we really must not be my intention anyway.

12:48

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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Andy Slaughter I rely on the hon. Gentleman to attend these sessions so that he can make that sessions so that he can make that point, as he has done on every report from the Justice Committee, I think, where we've had a statement in the chamber, because he's quite right about that, and that the lessons, even though this will apply in England, Wales, the lessons can be learned, and certainly I will undertake to go back to my officials and ensure

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that that work is done. Can I thank the Select Committee

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Can I thank the Select Committee Chair for his statement this afternoon? I will allow a couple of afternoon? I will allow a couple of moments for the front bench to swap moments for the front bench to swap over. And we now come to the backbench debate on the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme. I call Clive Efford, who will speak for about 15 minutes.

12:49

Backbench Business: General debate on the infected blood compensation scheme

Thank you, Madam.

12:49

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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13:10

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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The question is, as on the. >> Order Paper Damian Hinds. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank, as the Deputy Speaker, and I thank, as the hon. Gentleman did, the Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate today. I also pay tribute to him for for securing it, but also for all his work with the all party parliamentary group. He does put an awful lot of work into it. It is not like a normal APPG and we're all very grateful to him for that.

This scandal, Madam Deputy Speaker, is of such a scale that probably every MP has at least one constituent who has been infected or affected. But in my constituency it has a particular a particular weight attached to it. Because we are home to law school and college in East Hampshire. Treloar's Madam Deputy Speaker is an internationally recognised centre of excellence which provides the most remarkable level of care from incredibly committed people in terms of support, care, nurture and education for children and young people with some of the most profound disabilities imaginable.

But it was also the place where, in the 1970s and 80s, there was the single biggest concentration of people who were victims of these of these terrible practices. The reason for that was that because at any one time there were 40 to 50 Haemophiliac patients there, it was seen as an opportunity to study that disease. And the haemophilia NHS Haemophilia Centre was established nearby and then later moved into the moved into the school grounds. And Treloar's looms large in Sir Brian Langstaff report.

There's an entire section given over to it about how research objectives were put ahead of the interests of children, about how those children were subjected to unethical research techniques without them or their parents being informed or consulted about the risks attached. And as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, of the 122 children who were with haemophilia who attended between 1970 and 1987, only around 30 remain alive now, and it much wider effects, of course, to the stigma that could be attached.

The interrupted education, long term mental health scarring on them and their families, and indeed trauma through families that lasted for and has lasted for decades. This is a story of lost childhoods and lost futures. It's been a privilege of mine to have met a number of the Treloar's boys over time, and in particular one gentleman, Adrian Goodyear, Ade Goodyear, who I've been in contact with since I was first elected in 2010. He was then, before that in contact with my predecessor, Michael Mates, for many years too.

But in the debate we had in in 2010, I read out a line from him in one of his emails to me, which haunted me then and does now, he said. We've now lost so many of our friends from the Treloar days. In fact, we stopped counting at 40. I paid tribute to to Aids, to all the boys and everybody in this community who has kept up the fight for their remarkable tenacity in seeking justice, and in the name and memory of their friends lost.

I want to thank the Paymaster General for his continued and consistent positive engagement in this subject. He always comes here in person and that, I think is really appreciated. Yeah, it's really appreciated by the House. I do have a few questions for him, which I hope you may be able to address later in the debate. First, I've been asked specifically to raise the point about the lack of parity for bereaved parents if their child was over 18, as opposed to those where the child was younger than 18.

I wonder if he I hope he'll be able to comment on that. And if a change may be possible on elements of further elements of the award, I want to thank the Minister for his letter. His. In response to earlier exchange, we had at Cabinet Office questions about the special category mechanism and the psychological harm payments, but I continue to receive questions from from from my constituents about the Unethical Research Award. Now, clearly, the the change, the increase in that amount is, is very, very much welcomed in.

On November 2024 debate, I asked how these numbers, how these figures get reached, I. Although even with the higher number, I still get asked that question and I accept that it might be. I mean, clearly one cannot put a value. One cannot say that any amount of money compensates for this. For this tragic loss. But even if even if the answer is that you that there is no way of calculating such a number, I think it would be helpful perhaps to just have that, have that set out.

And then on the administration of the of the scheme. But first, I would like to say that I think have have tried well, actually to engage with with with MPs. And that is welcome. But clearly this needs to accelerate. And as inevitably with these processes, at first you have the relatively straightforward cases. And that moves relatively relatively well. But then once you get on to the more complex cases, it becomes harder. But as the hon. Gentleman said, we are talking about victims here who are increasingly elderly and and tragically may die before they receive the compensation that they

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have been promised. I'll happily give one. I'm very grateful to my hon. Friend, for giving way and for the hon. Gentleman for this debate. I think it's very difficult for any of us to contain our unadulterated rage at what happened. One of my rage at what happened. One of my constituents, her mother, she lost her mother to infected blood. She is now unfortunately, her father is is now unfortunately, her father is in his final days and she will lose him soon as well.

He received compensation and of course there compensation and of course there was no inheritance tax on that. But as a child, she knows her father. She will soon lose him as well. The government will be putting inheritance tax onto that money when it passes to her in very short time. So would the hon. Gentleman give his view, and I'm sure it will be heard by the frontbench about his view on how we make sure that that compensation, when it passes down from father who lost his wife to daughter, who lost her mother.

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But that doesn't incur inheritance tax. Damian Hinds that's my word. And

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Damian Hinds that's my word. And the hon. Lady puts puts it in very striking terms, but I, I think what I should do, as the Minister has I should do, as the Minister has heard her question, I think it is. It would be right for me to. And I It would be right for me to. And I see him indicate he'd be right for me to defer to, to, to when he comes to speak, to be able to say a comes to speak, to be able to say a word about that, about that matter, clearly.

And as colleagues have already said, the hon. Gentleman and others in interventions, this is not the first compensation scheme that has been set up. And it does seem that whenever it happens, obviously every case is somewhat different. It is dealing with different types, different categories of harm having been done. But it does seem that every time new processes have to be set up, systems have to be set up, time is therefore lost and we want lessons to be learned from from this scheme.

But of course, lessons also should have been learned from previous schemes. I do welcome the fact that the Public Accounts Committee is is conducting the the inquiry that it is. And and I hope to hear from the Minister a commitment that lessons will be learned and indeed, particularly from that inquiry. The last thing I wanted to mention, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the possibility of a criminal investigation, and I know this is something that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, with your constituents, have been involved in discussions with.

And you and I have both been in discussions with the Police and Crime Commissioner for Hampshire, Donna Jones. And this is clearly not a question for this Minister or any Minister, not for the Cabinet Office, not for the Home Office. It is about it is about the criminal justice system, the police and whether a threshold has been met. But I did just want to take the opportunity without expecting him to respond to it directly through this debate, to say, look, with all the passage of time, that there really is a premium on on knowing what is going to to happen and to and to know if we're going to move on that.

Madam Deputy Speaker, nothing will ever could ever make up for all the failings, the multiple failings of the state in this case from successive governments, from the civil service, from the National Health Service, and many more. But we can ensure. We must ensure that at this point we we have a compensation scheme which does pay out now in a timely way and is as effective and humane as it possibly can be for all of those victims and their families. And we can face up clearly to our failings, our failings as a state.

And let's be honest, our failings as a as a political system over these many years and give truth to that phrase, never again. Dame Jessica Morton.

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and I can I also begin by. Thanking the hon. Member for

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Thanking the hon. Member for Eltham and Chislehurst for his excellent and assiduous work on the APPG, and the hon. Member is right. APPG, and the hon. Member is right. It is a very different APPG and he does a fantastic job with it and does a fantastic job with it and also for articulating so well this afternoon. The asks of the community. Mine is is a general community. Mine is is a general plea really, but keenly felt by my constituents. But I do fully support all the asks the hon.

Member has put today and look forward to the Minister's response. Over the last 15 years in this chamber, I've raised the case of the Newport East families impacted by the contaminated blood scandal

13:21

Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)

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over 20 times, and I really hope we're closer to the point where I really don't have to raise their cases again, as we now have the compensation scheme and the money. compensation scheme and the money. And I thank the Minister for that. And we do appreciate he's doing a very difficult job, and I want him very difficult job, and I want him to know that. But so I really hope we don't have to raise these cases we don't have to raise these cases again.

And can I also pay tribute to all those who brought us to this stage, especially, and of course, the victims and the families who've campaigned absolutely tirelessly and provide provided us with the vital evidence over the years. I pay particular tribute to Colin and Janet Smith and their family, who've lived with this nightmare since 1983, when their toddler son Colin was given infected blood sourced from a prison in Arkansas. And I'm going to remember Colin again here in this chamber today.

He he died just aged seven because it's really important. We remember here today the people I believe that that we here for the Smiths are some of the strongest and most dignified people I have ever met.

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And it is an immense privilege to have them as My constituents. And I really mean that.

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And I really mean that. And this. Fight for them has been about justice. And it's never been about the money. But the Smiths, like so the money. But the Smiths, like so many others, and I understand there are about 92 estates in Wales, are about 92 estates in Wales, haven't been invited to apply for compensation yet, even though we have the scheme and the money to have the scheme and the money to pay the claims, they registered their intent to claim and pre-qualified for interim payments, but are still waiting to be invited.

For all these families, they just need to know what the Hold-up is. The authorities have done the checks, they have the information and the system appears to me to be just doubling up. So it would be really helpful to know why people can't just kind of apply, why they have to wait to be invited to apply. We need to move faster, much faster than we are now, and the current pace of delivery is just adding to the stress these people have already endured for decades.

So on behalf of these families, the Hepatitis Trust, the Haemophilia Society, can I urge the Minister to just look to what we can do to increase the speed to deliver the scheme and see what we can do about people waiting to be invited. These people have fought long enough, and crucially, I think it's really important that, as the hon. Member said, we continue to listen to the community and prioritise the elderly and the terminally ill. And the hon. Member for East Hampshire made the point and I'll repeat it again.

This community are getting older and it's now been more than two years since Sir Brian Langstaff delivered his recommendations, and around 20 months since the Chancellor set out the 11.8 billion required to settle the claims. So those affected want the chance to move on from this painful chapter. And for many bereaved parents to live their remaining years with a sense of closure after what, for them has been more than 40 years of struggle. So I'll just finish by saying these families deserve the closure before it's too late, and we have it in our gift to make that happen.

So please, can we increase the pace and bring this long injustice to an end? And I support all the asks made by the hon. Member for Eltham and Chislehurst and a final plea to please continue

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to listen to the community. Sir. Julian Lewis thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And like.

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Deputy Speaker. And like. Others before. Me, I join in paying tribute to the work of the hon. Gentleman for Eltham and Chislehurst. He is the driving force behind the all party parliamentary group, which has done parliamentary group, which has done so much to highlight this terrible tragedy. I was struck by what my

13:25

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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right hon. Friend for East Hampshire said about having been Hampshire said about having been alerted to this as far back as 2010. In my case, it wasn't quite so far In my case, it wasn't quite so far back. It was 2015, but that's still more than a decade ago. And I spoke more than a decade ago. And I spoke in this House about the case of my constituent Lesley, which illustrated how long it often took for victims of contaminated blood to discover that they indeed had been infected.

I pointed out that in 1970, she and her future husband had been involved in a very serious road traffic accident, and she had to receive no fewer than 44 pints of blood. For many years, she knew nothing about the fact that she had been infected, although over those years she had many visits to GPS and hospitals with numerous symptoms of illness and considerable pain and suffering. And it was only in 2014 that she finally discovered that she had been infected with hepatitis C by NHS contaminated blood.

Another example of a constituent who is in regular contact with me and my office is is Stephen. He came to see me in August 2023. He was diagnosed as an eight year old as Haemophiliac in the late 1960s. He thinks that he was infected with hepatitis C in 1974, which persisted for nearly 15 years before. Eventually, it cleared from his system. He says that although it did not inhibit his professional life too badly, it had a deep impact on his personal life.

He was married in 1986, and he was constantly having to have testing for fear every time that he had to have a transfusion, that he might be being infected. He was told in quite firm terms not to have children, and he said that he was often too scared to have treatment once he had quite a bad leg injury, which led to complications, and his fear of treatment led to him being effectively disabled for a period of time.

But in his brother's case, it was far worse because his brother was one of about 400 chronic hepatitis C victims of this scandal and he to this day, can only effectively live on a day to day basis. He cannot plan because the complications of his infection mean that whether he will be able to do something will depend on how he is on the day in question. We also benefited earlier this week from briefings from a number of organisations that are concerned with this scandal.

In portcullis House. On Tuesday, I will just briefly touch on a couple of those. One was a campaign about a condition of which I was previously unaware, called Thalassaemia. This is a rare blood disorder which requires sufferers to have a transfusion every 3 to 4 weeks, a blood transfusion every month. And what this does, because these people are at a very high risk of having been infected, and many of them were. But what these regular blood Iron into the major organs, which, coupled with the hepatitis C virus with which they've been infected, maximizes the prospect of them developing cirrhosis and liver cancer.

And the drug interferon has been mentioned a couple of times already, and I can I'm old enough to remember when interferon was first regarded as a great breakthrough in the treatment of some cancers. But sadly, like so many medical interventions, it does have side effects that can be harmful and taken in combination with what these patients are also suffering from by way of infection. And by way, in the case of thalassemia sufferers, this build up of iron, the interferon that has been used in their cases, also has complicating adverse effects.

And this was a point impressed on me at that briefing, also by the representative of the Terrence Higgins Trust, who pointed to the additional negative impact of treatment with interferon, which was for a significant time the only option available for HIV positive patients. Finally, I am indebted to the Haemophilia Society itself for briefing material, which I hope will simply add to the excellent statement and laying of the groundwork. In his opening speech, so ably delivered by the hon.

Gentleman and the Haemophilia Society, draw attention to 1 or 2 specific points that I would like to now put before the House. We all acknowledge that the infected blood community have valiantly fought for the truth for decades. We also accept that the government is clearly committed to compensation following the inquiry, and that the debate now focuses on how to deliver that commitment and to make sure that people are compensated without further delay, and that the compensation is truly fair.

Now, in this connection, I would like to make reference to a. Detailed opportunity I had virtually to participate in exchanges with senior people. In fact, the most senior people at the Infected Blood Compensation Agency back in June last year. This again, was at the initiative of the chairman of the APPG, and my participation was online, but I was able to, as was he, to discuss all these matters with the interim chairman at the time, Sir Robert Francis, and the chief executive, David Foley, and other key officials.

In particular, we were able to talk directly with members of Ibc's cases team, and I must say that I, for one, found them to be both compassionate and empathetic. And I must say, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was very impressed with the the calibre of the people who are involved in this agency, and I am hopeful that if they can be given the direction they need and the resources they require. I did get the feeling that this was an organisation that really does want to help the people who they have been set up to support, and not an organisation that wants to be in any way obstructive.

So I do hope everything can be done to encourage them to. I know they're operating in in uncharted waters with a tragedy of this magnitude, but I do hope that they succeed in overcoming the obstacles that have been causing these delays. More than two years have passed since the government accepted the need for compensation, but the majority of eligible people are still waiting to begin their claims, and this includes infected people not previously on a support scheme and affected people, namely the partners and family members of those who are sadly no longer with us.

And we've heard concern from the community that progress has slowed. While Ipqa works out how to grapple with these categories of claims in a process that it calls Test and learn every month of delay matters. Because many infected and affected people are elderly or seriously ill. And what we would like to know from the Minister is his latest assessment of the timescale by which Ibca will compensate each of the categories of claimant, because latest figures show just 30 affected people have been paid compensation.

So far, over 14,000 affected people are waiting to start their claim. And at what point does the Minister expect Ibca to truly start making a dent in these very large numbers? And in particular, we would like to know what specific steps are being taken to accelerate compensation payments over the next 12 months. Finally, there's an issue to do with claims in relation to the estates of those who died before the steam. The scheme commenced. Those who survived until the scheme commencement are rightly entitled Financial loss compensation from the date of their infection, right up to the National age of healthy life in expectancy that they should have had.

But in contrast, those who died before the scheme started have their financial loss calculated only from the date of their infection until the date of their death, which may have been a lot earlier than their normal expectation of a term life, which would have been their lot without this catastrophe having befallen them. There can be no doubt that this creates a stark and unjust two tier system. Those who died earlier will often have suffered the same or worse than those who died later, and the financial loss to their estate is clear.

Yet the government's position seems to be that those killed by their infections the soonest, deserve less compensation and recognition than those who survive for longer. In many cases, this amounts to a very substantial reduction in compensation, potentially decades of lost earnings. Bereaved families should not receive lesser justice because their loved one died before the scheme was established. The result is that timing, not harm, is determining value, meaning that compensation depends on whether someone survived long enough to see the scheme introduced.

And this is about avoiding, as I said earlier, a two tier compensation system. So I would like. In conclusion, the Minister to explain how it can be in accordance with natural justice for those who died earlier due to their infection, to receive less compensation than those who died later from a similar infection. And I'd like to ask whether the government will commit to reviewing its position on estate claims to ensure families are not disadvantaged because their relative died earlier.

Hear, hear.

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Ian Lavery. Yeah, I think, you know, we've

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Yeah, I think, you know, we've got to boil this down very, very, very simply. This has been very simply. This has been described as the biggest tragedy the NHS has ever seen. And as a the NHS has ever seen. And as a result, lots of people have sadly result, lots of people have sadly passed on. People are still dying

13:38

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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on a regular and frequent basis at a time when the steel issues pain, a time when the steel issues pain, the people are dying. As we sit here, you know, through the contaminated blood that dying on a regular basis, I'm going to pay tribute to the Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend, who I think has done a marvelous job, but at has done a marvelous job, but at the same time, I've said time and time and time again, and I've spoken.

I think I've spoken ten debates in the Commons with regards to this issue. And along with my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham and Chislehurst, we we've met the points time and time and time again, and the Minister has afforded as many meetings as possible as has been required, and that he's been he's totally dedicated to the scheme. But the reality is it's failing the people who are still waiting compensation. That's a reality. Despite everybody's best efforts, despite the fact that Ibca are doing a really good job as the hon.

Member said before, I've been to Ibca, I've had a look at how they operate. And regardless of Sir and Sir and sir, the chairman, the Chief executive, the staff, the staff are so dedicated, they're so compassionate, and it's in my area. So I'm not too surprised that that is the case. But I want to pay tribute to the the victims. I want to pay tribute to the families. I want to pay tribute to the friends, to the supporters and the campaigners, because without their persistence and their commitment, I'm not sure really where we would be.

It's absolutely I'm I'm I'm saddened, you know, that the latest iteration of the government's contaminated blood scandal compensation scheme still falls short of what the victims and their families have been expecting. And we've got a question. Why might this be why is this the case? Because the government has had the the chairman of the inquiry into the scandal, Sir Brian Langstaff, intervened to provide guidance in November 24th. It had months of the further consultations and still the victims and their families feel they and their representatives haven't been listened to properly.

The steel base. Unacceptable provisions, as has been explained by a number of speakers already, the steel face unacceptable provisions in the scheme regarding matters such as adequate compensation for all classes of relatives of deceased victims for the suffering, stemming and treatment and for the periods of financial losses experienced. Still huge difficulties with this scheme. The feeling like there might be let down by this government, you know. But I would say that as well as sharing their frustrations, as you can see by the tone of my contribution today, again, I thank the Paymaster General for the fact that the government, Labour government allocated £11 billion to compensate the victims.

Again, the reality is it's getting that compensation to those who justly deserve it. So I think in November 24th, say it in the House, that infective contaminated blood scandal is just one of far too many injustices experienced here in the UK over recent decades, in which powerful people have treated institutional reputations, career prospects and a number of cases profits as being more important than working class lives. Hillsborough, Orgreave the poor service horizon. Scandal. Grenfell all share share this shameful characteristic, and each one sent out a message that ordinary working class lives don't matter.

And I said the Minister was given an opportunity to show that the Labour government does think that the lives of ordinary people do matter by ensuring that the victims of contaminated blood products received just in meaningful compensation, without further unconscionable delay. But I just want to touch on a number of the points in the points. Most of the points have already been raised, but I think I'm compelled to raise the number of the outstanding issues, the the work of the, the and the excellent work that determination of the Paymaster General has meant.

We're in this position which we ought to do. Lots of progress made, and I thank him for his engagement with the infected blood community as well. But these are the the main points, Minister, I would like to raise. There's a few. I want to talk about the changes many believe are still needed to. The compensation scheme, about the pace of compensation and about the impact the compensation scheme is having. There's clearly injustices which remain fundamental injustices in the compensation scheme, and I hope this can still be addressed.

And if treatment is still not being properly recognised under the latest proposals, and, for example, people treated with the interferent or excluded from the additional injury award if they later develop more serious and more severe conditions like cirrhosis. This is supposed to reflect the fact that they're already compensated for a higher level of injury, but the harm caused by the interfering treatment is distinct and additional to the harm caused by infection of any severity. It should be acknowledged in its own right, and I'm hoping that the Paymaster General can look again at extending the additional injury award to all those who underwent interferon treatment, regardless of other conditions on a state, claims.

We are going to see families in and out with very different amounts of compensation depending on when the loved ones die, and in practice, this means those who have died earlier can end up worse off. It's ludicrous which it perverse. It cannot be right that families shouldn't receive receive less just because a loved one died before the scheme was up and running. Of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

course I will. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm going to have to do this I'm going to have to do this without crying. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the really impassioned speech that he's making. impassioned speech that he's making. I'm a member of the Public Accounts Committee, and this became to us a couple of weeks ago in a session couple of weeks ago in a session about blood and other things, and we examined the infected blood scandal as part of a much wider report on government compensation schemes.

These cases are always marked by a profound injustice, but there is nowhere clearer than it is here. Each people, each week, people die before receiving the compensation they are promised. And I know that he will agree that this

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is a moral stain upon our country. Not intervention. I'm sure that

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Not intervention. I'm sure that people across the benches would agree with the sentiment echoed by agree with the sentiment echoed by the hon. Lady. We look at the the estate claims, as I've just mentioned, it cannot be right. You mentioned, it cannot be right. You know what, what what's just been explained. And again, my right hon. Friend, my right, my honourable and Friend, my right, my honourable and promoting the hon. Gentleman mentioned before. Yeah, you're right hon. Sorry. The right hon.

Gentleman. And I think if we ask the the Minister today if he's able to announce a change of approach for that, families who have already suffered so much aren't penalized because of the date their relative died. Carer's contributions still aren't properly recognised in the way that they should be. We've got many family members provided unpaid care for many years, putting their lives and careers on hold again, already being mentioned. It's especially stark for children and young people who took on caring responsibilities went far beyond what you would normally expect, often at a real cost to their education, the well-being and the future prospects.

The supplementary compensation should be amended to reorganize and recognise both the financial and personal losses of carers, as well as recognising the additional impact caring duties have placed on children. And again, to his credit, the Paymaster General is engaged with the community, parliamentarians and advocates and allies listening closely today, and I hope there may be further changes before the next regulations are introduced. I hope that the latest proposals on the last word, then that will ultimately have a scheme that is free of from clear inequities.

As I've already described. The other top priority must now be for compensation to be delivered faster, we need to focus on delivery and accountability. Too many people are still waiting in the system isn't moving fast enough. Many people are wondering how long it'll take for the cases to be considered. If this pace continues. The scheme made some initial progress, but now feels as if it's been slightly stalled. Most of the progress it has made is amongst the most straightforward category of claims.

Living infected people who are already on a support scheme. We also need to see the faster progress across all the remaining categories of claims, including infected people who were never previously compensated. Affected people in estate claims. A lot of these cases should be relatively straightforward. For example, many estate claims were were prohibited is already in place and interim payments have been made. There's a strong argument for prioritising these to families can get closure soon, sooner. There's also a growing concern that the test and learn approach used by IPA is working and not delivering speed, or indeed fairness.

Would it not be in the best interests of the most people to rapidly deal with these straightforward cases, so that thousands of people get a closure and can move on with their lives? And I think we just mentioned the fantastic work of the haemophilia centres. That's ongoing operational problems in the regulations that are causing avoidable delays in placing an additional burden on haemophilia centres, clinicians and haemophilia centres are under real pressure. As a result, many are being asked for historic records that no longer exist.

The administrative burden of finding evidence a respondent has fallen on already stretched NHS teams. There are cases where centre staff, whose primary focus should be on treatment and care of people with bleeding disorders are working every weekend to keep on top of compensation administration. It's important to note that the haemophilia care is already facing its challenges. The most recent peer review found major gaps, with 93% of haemophilia centres staffed below the target. Standard compensation claims and admin should be properly resourced and funded through Epca, rather than relying on haemophilia clinicians to pick up the slack.

And I hope this can be. I hope this will be accepted by the Paymaster General of the day. And finally, Madam Deputy Speakers, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman can clarify a point on regulation 12, the switching of payments. Sean Kevins, who's a great campaigner, man who suffered greatly as a result of this tragedy. He thought it was possible to to to switch his payments. And what he's asking is if an individual is on a yearly support payments, which was previously guaranteed for life, this could be switched to take a lump sum payment.

The clarification is he believed that there would be an an appropriate lump sum payment. However, he's 45 years of age and if he commuted his support payments to a lump sum payment, it would only represent four years of support payments. When was this? When was this changed? And surely it cannot be right if somebody wants to transfer the support payments and basically forget about the the situation and move on. Surely there should be allowed more than four years support payments as a lump sum.

Thank you very much, Ms.

13:52

Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)

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Davis. Yes, thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to follow the hon. Gentleman from follow the hon. Gentleman from Blyth and Ashington. Where to start? Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity to contribute. On behalf of my constituents and I to thank the hon. Member for Eltham and Chislehurst on securing opening this debate and all of his sterling work. Madam Deputy Speaker, like you, I have constituents who stick in your mind and you want to stand up for.

And this is a particular area where my constituent, Robert Eleanor, has given me huge understanding of this terrible injustice, just like the Webster family I know in your own constituency. So I thank Robert from East Grinstead, who I've known for some time, who has been sterling in his activity and parliamentary engagement on this subject that affects him and the all party group. I am also keen to raise points on behalf of Josie from Turners Hill on behalf of her father, Andrew Quinn.

Much of what I would say today is her words on behalf of her father, and reflects much of what my hon. Friend from New Forest East, right on the phone from New Forest East, has said and reflects engagement that I have had with the Cabinet Office on behalf of Josie and her father. Josie writes, I'm writing to you as my family is one of the first 15 families who have been asked to begin our compensation claim for the estate of an infected blood victim.

This being my dad, Andrew Quinn, who passed away in May 2020. We are now a few weeks into the claim process and frustratingly and sadly, I feel my dad is now being completely failed by the core route. And I'm doubtful at this point that the proposed supplementary route is going to be any different for the following reasons. Call route. My father was infected with hepatitis C and developed cirrhosis of the liver. We believe around 2017, which puts him in the severity level three of the core route.

However, in 2018, my father underwent a 12 week course of Harvoni hep C treatment, which. The treatment. After completion of the 12 week course not only failed, but at the very same time, my father was also told he had developed mantle cell lymphoma lymphoma, which would have been a side effect of the harvoni treatment or could have been simply caused by the hep C. My father was told he was too ill to undergo full chemo due to his liver cirrhosis and other ailments caused by the hep C, so he did not have the required two rounds of chemo needed to qualify for the severity.

Level four. My father died on the 16th of May 2020 from hep C, liver cirrhosis and lymphoma. What could possibly be more severe than the above? To summarize, my father died because he was infected with hep C, which caused liver cirrhosis, gave him lymphoma for which he was too ill to receive the required two rounds of chemo and consequently died. Yet my father does not qualify for the severity level for the highest severity. Ironically, my father's health has not been as severely impacted by the hep C.

Ironically, my. Had my father's health not been as severely infected by the hep C, he would have been well enough to have had the required two rounds of chemo in order for him to qualify for severity level four of the compensation scheme, and may even still be with us today. I believe my father has been discriminated against for being too ill to receive two rounds of chemo, which I find utterly disgraceful. Supplementary route the supplementary route requires victims to have had at least 12 weeks treatment of interferon in order to give them.

In order for them to be considered for the next severity level. This being level three or a new level between 2 and 3. I strongly object to this, as some victims, including my father, had severe side effects such as chronic depression and a mild heart attack, and they were unable to sustain 12 weeks of interferon. Not that this would have even benefited my father's claim, as he had already, as he was already in severity level three due to him developing cirrhosis in the supplementary route.

It is no help to my father either. So to summarize, once again, I believe victims who were too ill to sustain 12 weeks of interferon treatment are being discriminated against. I do not believe anything could be more severe than death of an infected blood victim, a death which would have been caused by their infection. At present, there is no call route nor the supplementary route which addresses this direct injustice. I would sincerely appreciate your help and support in this matter to help identify and rectify this injustice in order to bring the rightful justice the infected blood victims deserve.

As the family of an infected blood victim, we are desperately want to put all the hurt and pain behind us, but we cannot do that if we are still discriminated against and unfairly treated. This week. Josie wrote again, she was very keen that I spoke in this debate and I am very grateful. The letter you forwarded me from the Minister, she writes. The Minister for the Cabinet Office stated that the infected blood victims would not be discriminated against for not being well enough to receive treatment.

However, Ipqa will not recognise this despite me making them aware of what the Minister for the Cabinet Office has stated in their letter. They have stated that in order to recognise this statement and not discriminate against victims who are not well enough to have treatment, this statement by the Minister for the Cabinet Office would have had to be made law. Josie urged me to raise this today in Parliament on behalf of all victims who were simply not well enough to receive treatment, because, as it stands, victims who were not well enough to receive treatment and have died as a result of their infections, will simply receive less compensation than those victims who were well enough to receive treatment and then survived.

I'm sure you will agree with me that this injustice needs to be addressed today. These are the words of Josie. She and families like hers must get justice and proper compensation and feel, Minister, that the process actually works for them and reflects the impact on them and their loved ones. All of this, we know, is so wrong. We must make it right, and I hope

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the Paymaster General can give Josie and many families the comfort they deserve. Thank you. Yeah.

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Thank you. Yeah. near Griffith much indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to start by thanking my hon. Friend, the Member for Eltham and Chislehurst, for his excellent work Chislehurst, for his excellent work and for once again securing this debate, an opportunity for us to speak up for our constituents and speak up for our constituents and express our continued frustration at the pace and the disparities of the rollout of the compensation scheme.

And I'd like to pay a huge tribute to all those who have campaigned tirelessly for so many long years, and also to my right hon. Friend, the Member for

14:00

Dame Nia Griffith MP (Llanelli, Labour)

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Kingston upon Hull North for her sterling work. Before I turn to current concerns about the scheme, current concerns about the scheme, I want to take a moment to remind us of just what an appalling scandal the infected blood scandal scandal the infected blood scandal has been. It is absolutely ruined lives and destroyed families. It's lives and destroyed families. It's appalling enough that those infected were infected in the first infected were infected in the first place, leaving them lifelong health problems and having a devastating impact on them and their families.

But of course, this was compounded by those infected and their families not being told the truth by the continued use of products. After the risks had become known by medical records that went missing, by cover ups, by obfuscation, by the deliberate withholding of information, by the stigma that surrounded HIV, by the limited treatments available, and by the endless delays in getting to where we are today, hopes raised only to be dashed again. Anticipation, expectation, disappointment. People have been waiting years and years for compensation.

Many of those infected and affected have passed away before they had any seen any redress. But Madam Deputy Speaker, many are still waiting, wondering if they will get redress in their lifetimes. I want to turn now to some specific issues and cases. I'm going to make mention of three of my constituents, but we only get a tiny glimpse into their lives. We can never know the anguish that they and their families have endured, the obstacles that they've encountered, and the continual battles that they've simply had to fight just to live their lives.

The injustice they felt, the anger and the despair. And so often we felt inadequate as MPs. So little we could do as like them. We were waiting. One of my constituents, his mother, is now 98 years old. She was only 52 when her son was infected, and she's had to see him suffer. And she's cared for him, and it's for 46 years now, and she still has not received any redress or compensation. Let's just remind ourselves of the trauma that mothers like her have lived through, seeing their children suffer, looking after their children.

Now, I understood that the older members of the affected community were to be prioritised, but just how old do you have to be? Is 98 not old enough to be a priority? Of course, any redress or compensation is totally inadequate in the light of what's happened, and can never make up for what those infected in their families have been through. But she at least deserves to see the recognition in her lifetime. And still they have no redress, no recognition. And the worry is that they may not even live to see it.

I appreciate the arguments about getting the scheme right and learning the lessons from small numbers, but now really is the time to ramp up and to speed up the roll out of the compensation. Now, another of my constituents was infected, very young. And again, we can never know the anguish he and his family suffered. But because of his age, there was never any proper accounting for his earning potential, any recognition of what he would have achieved if his childhood had not been dominated and ruined by the very serious consequences of his infection.

He quite rightly feels that it's all been rather too little, too late, and the payments really do not reflect what he's been through. And again, his family is still waiting. His mother and his sister and his children, and no one's getting any younger. His case has the infected is all documented, and so surely it should not be difficult to deal with the family members who have been affected as a result of him being infected. And then there's the family of Damian Lewis, who was infected with HIV in 1983 as a result of bone marrow treatment in the hospital in London, and who subsequently developed Aids and died in 1995 when he was just 19 years old.

To compound matters, this was another case of her parents, Brian and Joan, not being told straight away what had really happened and only finding out the truth later, the impact of his infection on him and the family was devastating. His surviving twin brother tells how his parents, Brian and Joan, never got over it. They had their lives destroyed by losing Damian, with his mother Joan only passing away in 2021, only seeing the first three years of the inquiry, all those long years from when Damian was infected and she sacrificed her career as a nursing midwifery manager to look after him in his final years.

All those years since, and they've never had a redress or apology, never saw matters resolved. And of course, now, with Joan passing away in 2021, her estate will never be eligible for any compensation because claims can only be made by estates where the affected person dies. Between the 20th of May 2024 and the 30th of May 2031. This just seems so unfair, so unjustifiable, so morally wrong, particularly in the light of the fact that there have been so many delays and when even now, dealing with the affected is moving at a glacial pace, like so many others, Damian, surviving twin, is shocked by the disparity between the living affected and those infected who've passed away, who never had answers, who never had redress.

And then there's a disparity between the different ways that those family members are treated with substantial differences between partners, parents, children and siblings, despite family. Family members experiencing the same events and witnessing the same injury, suffering and injustice. And so he would like answers on these issues. And of course, all the while there are delays. We're still waiting for payment to see the worth of their entitlements eroded by inflation, and they're missing out on the opportunity to earn interest on their money.

And I now want to specifically turn to some of what's happening with the current situation. We all appreciate that. My right hon. Friend the current Minister has worked hard on this issue and has secured this £11 billion funding for the scheme, and he is the latest in a long line of Ministers, and that many of the delays happened before his watch. But nevertheless, he is the one who now has the power to expedite matters. The cry from everyone is can we please speed up the process of payments, avoid all the duplication going back over records, all the imposing, unnecessary work on clinical staff, some of the dates set out by the Infected Blood Compensation Authority just feel light years away.

It's not just that those affected are missing out financially, it's the psychological trauma of yet more delays and the fact that they still cannot get closure. The infected two want closure, and they don't want to be ever, for ever, for ever simply getting the payments on their current schemes. They want the option of a lump sum, and above all, they want closure and the affected want their proper redress and recognition of all that they've been through as well. Repeatedly, Sir Brian Langstaff made it clear that those affected should be able to make an application themselves, not wait to be invited.

Many of those involved have the documentation ready and so much time, effort and cost could be saved by allowing them to make an application. The Haemophilia Society Wales has assessed that it would be far simpler and save the Cabinet Office a lot of work if those wishing to claim could put in their forms and get the necessary evidence, together with the help of their lawyers, many of whom have been involved for many years. This would save the department a lot of work and said, I understand that very well, meaning caseworkers who are new to the issues are having to ask for additional copies of documents and giving clinicians additional work, duplicating what has already been done.

For many of those who have been waiting for many, many years. Have all this information ready? Will the Minister look seriously at this suggestion? Now, I understand that included in the legislation there has to be a supplementary route for those affected, which will give a 50% uplift, recognising the unique and lasting impact experienced by children and siblings affected. While under the age of 18, bereaved parents whose infected child died under the age of 18 and bereaved partners. And can the Minister give us a timescale for this? And to conclude? Madam Deputy Speaker, what is the Minister going to do to speed up the roll out of the payments to all those infected and affected? None of us should rest until every person infected or affected receives their entitlement.

Pete Wishart.

14:10

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and can I wholeheartedly congratulate the wholeheartedly congratulate the hon. Member for Eltham and Chislehurst for his customary forthright and direct way that he opened the debate today, and I agree with him on all those points. And he would expect that of me as his loyal deputy and the all party group. And I think it's great that we've had so many solid and significant contributions here today. Like when you're talking about a couple of hours into a debate, you start to get a feeling of how it's going and the themes that are emerging and the sort of sense of direction that the debate is going in.

And I think all of us acknowledge and appreciate that huge progress has been made, huge progress, progress that when I started out in this campaign over 20 years ago, I would never have believed we would have got to this point where payments are being made to those that are impacted and affected. But I think the Minister is also starting to hear the same sort of issues that are starting to emerge about some of the complications and difficulties, some of the things that people are experiencing with their own constituents, and the sort of representations that are being made.

I'm not going to touch on them because so many have been made. I might just reinforce some of the points, but I think he's beginning to hear the chorus of the things that need to be addressed and addressed. They must be got to this point just now, but we're at the cusp of having something that you know, we can be proud of in this House that we have addressed. One of the biggest scandals that we've ever experienced in parliamentary life. And we took control of it.

We handled it. We got a report, we got an inquiry, and we've got billions of pounds of compensation. Let's do it right now. And we have that opportunity in front of us to do that. And I hope that is grabbed by the government, and I hope that we're able to do this. I would also like to pay tribute to abcA and the work that they've done. It's amazing that we've put together an infrastructure support scheme as quickly as we have. It's doing remarkable work in such a short time.

It is really starting to deliver, and I think we are all immensely pleased and proud that, again, this House collectively have been able to construct this and make sure that there is functional and there are words I've visited there in a couple of occasions, and I've met the staff and discussed many of these issues with them, and I recognise the sheer dedication to the work they are doing and the commitment they have and the best interests of everybody. They serve as part of an arm's length body, and I think it is amazing that we have got there.

But it wasn't always like this. Madam Speaker, I remember back in the early 2000, I'm looking at my hon. Friend, the chair of the committee. You'll remember this too, the way that we were fobbed off, disregarded and lied to, lied to when we took up the cases of our constituents, who presented to us our various surgeries with these difficulties and complications unexplained. How did I get this? I've got HIV, I've got hepatitis. I don't know how on earth this happened. And you would write to successive Ministers in the health department, making these representations, asking just for assistance, just for acknowledgement, to be told that they were not interested.

Nothing to see here. Move along. We are not prepared to take this up. Believe me, as the Minister, that we are doing everything in our power and that there's nothing really to acknowledge. So for years we're fobbed off and disregarded the. Madam Speaker, for years we fought on. Over these years, I've got to know these campaigners, people who came together in common purpose, determined to get to the heart of the issue and support each other. We call them the community, and you could not find a better community than the campaigners who have led this, been at the forefront and refused to accept no.

That people from different lives and backgrounds. But all of them carry the burden of what happened to them, and all of them are still here fighting the good fight, determined to get justice for the whole community. And that is the key thing today. The whole community. I was APPG chair for all these years, and I've met most of them. I have to say, some of the finest people I've ever encountered. And, you know, like I've seen lots of campaigns in this House and I've seen the way that people approach these issues about how they take them forward, about how they engage, about how they access the members of Parliament and be able to make sure that things are done.

I think this is the most fantastic campaign that we've ever had. I unfortunately couldn't make the the ceremony in Saint Paul's. I was myself recovering from illness, so I couldn't make it. But I know from friends, colleagues and campaigners how important that was for them and how they could be recognised as a community and for the work that they have done. But the high points too, and let's acknowledge it. I mean, I think few of us would have expected Theresa May to have made that announcement back in 2017 that there was to be a full inquiry.

I think a lot of us were surprised that she chose Sir Brian Langstaff to to lead that inquiry and led that he did. And like many people here, I listened to lots of the evidence and the inquiry sessions. I cheered when the report was produced along with the community. I was there when in this house, the report was launched and the government took full responsibility and said that there would be a full repayment scheme and people would get what they had.

Those were great days, absolutely great days met with real enthusiasm and euphoria by those that have campaigned. So there's been good days. But what we've got to do now is to address the issues. The biggest one that has been mentioned several occasions, so I won't labour on this, is that people have been waiting decades. But even at this point, the majority of those people are still waiting just to start to claim not to receive the compensation. We think we'd be at that stage now.

But it's just to get into the system. And even at this stage, only a relatively small number of actually being paid. People have mentioned that these are real people, people who are unwell, people who know that time is not on their side. And I don't know who mentioned it. One of my colleagues that people are dying weekly because they're not having their situation attended to and their payments being made. Families who still have no clarity about when their case will move forward, made worse by what's been asked of them.

And I'm quite surprised when I've listened carefully to colleagues who have raised this. We see people being asked for evidence that in many cases simply does not exist. I've been asked for things and records from the 1980s, things like proof of cohabitation between parents and children from decades ago, things that were probably never properly recorded in the first place. And if they had, have been lost over time. This means that so many people are being delayed or sometimes shut out completely because they cannot meet the requirements that are not realistic.

Then there is a case that in some cases, this runs into a purely arbitrary administrative date, rather than when harm was actually suffered. And then people have the bereaved families where support can stop at the point of death, rather than the full impact of what has been lost. But I think another theme that has developed, and I think it was the hon. Gentleman particularly raised this, and it's the growing concerns about those with hepatitis C who were treated with interferon. This Minister, I think, has to be addressed.

I think of all the issues that have started to emerge. This is the one that I think that the community in general want us to press as strongly as we can with the Minister, and I hope that we do get some satisfaction, because of course I will. Yes, I'm very grateful that he's reiterated that point, and if I could also do likewise. Madam Deputy Speaker, many of my constituents who have been affected and infected by this scandal have asked me to to really emphasize that point, that it's the long term consequences of interferon treatment, that they don't feel the current scheme, even the updated scheme, properly recognises.

At the moment, interferon was introduced as almost like a chemotherapy back in the day. And some of those impacts and consequences have been quite similar to those that have been. Side effects and impacts of chemotherapy. Physically and mentally, the effects are often severe and long lasting. What the government has done, and I'm trying desperately to understand it, and perhaps the Minister can explain when he's on his feet, just a little bit more, about what he intends to do with this group in this community, because he's introduced a new level to be to recognise some of these harms.

What it does is my understanding of this is that it provides a temporary uplift, but it only seems to apply in certain circumstances. What it doesn't seem to me, and I've read it carefully, it doesn't seem to reflect the long term reality. For many of these people, the argument appears to be that the higher category covers just about everything else. When it comes to interferon treatment of hepatitis C, that levels three and four already take interferon into account. But my colleagues in Scotland asked for the evidence showing how this was factored in and administered.

None was provided. So could we hear just a little bit more about the evidence that this goes into three and four? There is a similar set of concerns about unethical research. Again, we've heard quite a lot about that today. The government has expanded eligibility and increased awards. This is welcome in principle. That means that people are recognised without having to jump through additional evidential hurdles. But there is still a lack of clarity as to whether the level of awards properly reflects what actually happened to people.

And again, just looking at this and the Minister could clarify to me, this all seems to be about this arbitrary 1985 cut off date, with officials saying that there is no evidence of unethical research beyond that point. But the inquiry itself refers to some of this. Beyond that date, and even up to the 1990s, where children were recruited without proper information or consent. So why did the government arrive at 1995 as a cut off date for eligibility for unethical research? Given that there is evidence that unethical trials and research continued well into the 1990s, there is also ongoing concerns about estate claims where the structure of payments could disadvantage those who died early and about care about unpaid over these years.

And I think that, again, has been reflected by several colleagues who have brought that up. A few people have made reference to some of the different schemes around the devolved nations. I particularly proud and pleased of what we did in the Scottish Parliament, and the Minister will be aware, of course, of the bespoke schemes that are across all of the United Kingdom, not just in Scotland, the one that particularly worked in Scotland. I just want the Minister's response to just about what has happened to the special category mechanism known as the severely affected category.

This was a scheme in Scotland that was open to people who had significant problems and issues we were able to apply for, and were given an increased pay out in support through this. This has since been subsumed into the general supplementary schemes and where that's welcoming, but what it does is disadvantage what we had in Scotland, a superior scheme that was in place. Those have been those that were initially on that scheme have been kept on it, but those that wished to apply for it have to go through bigger hoops and hurdles just to get there.

So I think we need to know that this is still going to be available, and it will be easier for people to apply to that, because we were particularly pleased with that scheme operated in Scotland itself. But lastly. Mr. Madam Deputy Speaker. It's accountability. What is happening generally when we see this just. Get this one here. And that's that that we have to look at just now, the government repeatedly dismissed, as I said, those asking questions and trying to achieve justice throughout the decade.

And the final report acknowledged that the infected and affected had to go through the lies and lines that they were fed, and the outright dismissal of serious concerns. We have got to address this. We cannot leave it lying, and we have to look at how we get round some of the things that we were encountered. I remembered the letters and responses that I got from various government Ministers. The government does not accept that any wrongful practices were employed, and does not consider that a public inquiry is justified.

I got that for years. Every time I raised these issues on behalf of a constituent, and I listened carefully to the infected blood inquiry, the the evidence I found was compelling, Madam Speaker, was from a certain Andy Burnham, who was health Minister at one point during this period, and I believe he's in the news today for some other reasons not related to this particularly. But I remember Andy Burnham sitting at this inquiry, and he candidly told the inquiry that he now knows that the lines that he was given by senior officials in civil service was wrong, and that he was sending lies to me and other members when we raised these issues in Parliament.

That's what he, in effect, said in the evidence that in his inquiry this is simply unacceptable. Now, I believe this group of Ministers are probably much better than their predecessors, and they will look the cells very carefully at these things that come across the desk. But this cannot cannot be allowed to happen again. That is why we need the statutory duty of candour on all public officials, including civil servants and senior civil servants. But more than this, we need an independent compensation body that should be established to oversee all government compensation compensation schemes.

We cannot allow this to happen again in such a body would retain expertise and experience, save time and money when a scheme is to be set up and be capable of ramping up and down according to need, the Hillsborough law must be enacted without delay, introducing a duty of candour for everybody involved in public life in a national oversight mechanism should be established to monitor and scrutinise the implementation of recommendations from all public inquiries, and to hold the government to account.

Madam Speaker, is hard to believe that after all of this, the first meeting that I had on this was back probably about 2004 with a lovely lady from Blairgowrie in my constituency who came to see me in what could only be described as a hell of a state. We could not account for why she had HIV after a blood transfusion, after a medical emergency, and it was because I heard that I started to get involved in all this and try to find answers and try to ensure that campaigners justice would be met.

The only way that lady was Tisha Titheridge, and after contracting HIV, she died in 2013. Without seeing the huge progress that we've all made. It's because of people like Tricia that we're all still here, still fighting to ensure that everybody is included. That is a scheme that works for all our constituents. And I'm pretty certain when I look at the Minister and I know the qualities that he is going to bring to this job, he is going to be the man that delivers this for everybody and meets our concerns and looks at those

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difficulties we presented today. Yeah. Liam Conlon.

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Liam Conlon. And can I begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Chiselhurst and my neighbour for bringing this debate today and for bringing this debate today and for speaking with such clarity and so powerfully in his opening address, powerfully in his opening address, I was contacted by my constituent in Beckenham and Penge, Susan and her two daughters, including Louise, her two daughters, including Louise, who is here in the gallery today. I just want to welcome Louise here to

14:27

Liam Conlon MP (Beckenham and Penge, Labour)

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take part in this debate, and I would like to begin by paying tribute to them for their fight and for bravely sharing their story for bravely sharing their story with me. And I will come on to that story in in a moment. As has been story in in a moment. As has been said, the infected blood scandal is widely recognised as the worst treatment disaster in the history treatment disaster in the history of the NHS. Over 25,000 people were infected with hepatitis C and infected with hepatitis C and particularly tragically, over 380 children were infected with HIV.

I remember vividly meeting some of those impacted at an event with the phenomenal and unrelenting Hillsborough Law Coalition, and a Hillsborough law is an important part of this debate today. And in the context of today's debate, because this went from a tragedy to a scandal because of the way that patients and families were treated. As I have said previously, all the campaigners and campaigners supporting the Hillsborough law are distinct. I got involved in the Hillsborough law because I'm a relative of Hugh Mullen, who was one of the victims of the Ballymurphy massacre, one of the worst atrocities of the troubles.

He was shot in the abdomen and again in the back as he lay on the ground, giving the last rites to someone. And I've watched through my dad's family, they fought for 50 years for truth and justice to be placed on the record, and to be told that he was entirely innocent. And I've got to know many of the other campaigns involved. Margaret Aspinall and the Hillsborough families, the Grenfell families, Horizon Post Office, many others who are all part of this coalition.

And whilst they are distinct and come from different contexts, different places, different times, what often happens to them share many similarities. First, victims are dismissed. Information is withheld from them. Sometimes they are smeared. Second, the closing of ranks amongst authorities shutting off routes to justice. And we've heard many of those stories shared with us from members across the House today. And then thirdly, a legal system where the scales of justice are stacked in favour of the state. Justice for one of these campaigns requires justice for all.

And so I will go on to say that the Hillsborough law must be passed in full if we are to deliver this. And I echo comments, I think, made by members across the House about learning from these injustices. And I think it was the hon. Member opposite who said, you know, we need to stop recreating the wheel on these. We learn from processes around these scandals, the inquiries that take place and bringing them together with the Hillsborough law is a really important step.

But first, though, I'd like to turn to my constituent Susan and her husband George. And let me tell you what happened to George. George suffered from severe haemophilia A and type one diabetes, and died suddenly on the 26th of April 1978 at the age of just 33. It was only 41 years later when the family were able to obtain his medical records in 2019. Upon hearing about the infected blood inquiry being set up that they discovered he had been given factor eight products for various operations at Saint Thomas's Hospital from 1976 onwards, including a product called Hemofil.

In January 1978. The records also show that he was regularly tested for hepatitis B antigens, and the test results were negative until October 1976, just six months after he was first treated with factor eight. George died in 1978, before hepatitis C had even been identified and no tests were available. The inquiry, though, concluded that essentially any hemophiliac given blood products in the 1970s would have been infected with hepatitis C. Susan, his wife, gave evidence to the infected blood inquiry in March 2020 with assistance and contributions from her daughters.

In it, they expressed their belief that infected blood products may have contributed to George's death, in particular his ability to respond to insulin for his diabetes. Susan has just been informed by Ibca that they are now ready to begin her claim, which is really positive and welcome news, especially as she is 80 and not in the best of health. And I think many members have mentioned this today that time is not on their side for victims and for families, and an expedient process is really important.

Susan has been told that she will be one of the first people to make a deceased infected claim, and that her experience will help us to improve the service for other people who claim in the future. However, her daughters and doubtless thousands of others affected by the scandal would like more information on when these further claims will be processed. They fully understand that those who are elderly or ill take priority, and that the Ibca and the Ibca can only bring affected people into the scheme in small numbers for now.

But they would hugely value a more detailed timeline of when affected. People's claims will be addressed, even if this means distinguishing between months and years that waiting is something that I've heard from other victims and victims families, as well as Sir Brian Langstaff, the inquiry's chair, stated in his address at the recent Infected Blood memorial service. People need greater transparency and I would welcome the Minister responding to that when he responds to this debate. Susan's husband, George, was given products that government that the government knew weren't safe, and they were never made aware at any time that this was happening, nor that he was being tested for hepatitis.

Reading about George's experience and that of his family, and listening to the contributions made by members across the House this afternoon brings genuine anger. The state must ensure now that it does not fail victims and families again, that we make quick progress on this. Susan had to wait over 40 years to find out the truth about her husband's death, but she and thousands of others have still not been given closure. And as the Haemophilia Society has laid out, first, psychological harm must be fairly and compassionately recognised.

Second, the scheme must ensure compensation to estates, reflects the harm and loss suffered and remove the clear injustice of penalising those who died earlier. And third, compensation must begin to be paid faster. Beyond this too, as George's daughter Louise said, who sits in the gallery today, a compensation payment is hugely significant not for its monetary value, but as an acknowledgement that an injustice has been done to. And I think when we talk about compensation, it is one component of redress. I have just spent the past year and I'm really proud to have passed Philomena's Law, which has delivered justice for victims and survivors of Ireland's cruel mother and baby homes, 13,000 of whom live in Britain today.

And I've met with countless survivors. And that's what they say that nothing can undo the wrongs done to them. But this is one important component of redress, and we won't deliver closure as a house for these families until that is paid. And a swift resolution to the compensation issue would help many, like Susan, find some kind of ending to what has been a very difficult process. And this sentiment, the importance of acknowledgement of injustice and wrongdoing, is one I hear echoed across much of the hills the Law coalition.

Time and time again, we have seen the state engaged in David versus Goliath battles, where the state, flanked by an army of lawyers, takes on families who have scraped together for a single barrister. The state closes ranks and opportunities for justice are snuffed out. And even when there are admissions of guilt and wrongdoing, such as with the infected blood scandal, we too often see a hesitation to implement the recommendation of public inquiries, as the Haemophilia Society also calls for. The Hillsborough law must be enacted in full, introducing a duty of candour for public officials to ensure scandals like this can never happen again.

The bill will also introduce a national oversight mechanism, so that governments are held to account in implementing the recommendations of public inquiries like that into infected blood. And so to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, we must deliver justice for those impacted by the infected blood scandal. For many, we know we do not have long to do so, but we must also do all we can to ensure that no such scandal, like what happened to George and his family can happen again. And I have faith that this government wants to do that.

I thank again the Member for Chislehurst for securing this debate today. And whilst I urge the government as a whole to go faster, I thank the Minister personally for

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all the tireless work I know he does on this issue, too. Thank you. Jo Furness.

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Jo Furness. Thank you very much, deputy. Madam deputy, we find ourselves at a critical juncture in time as we approach the laying of the final amendments to the scheme in legislation for at this stage, I'd legislation for at this stage, I'd like to thank my hon. Friend from the Member for Eltham and Chislehurst for securing today's Chislehurst for securing today's debate and all the work he, he and the APPG on haemophilia and contaminated blood have done. I

14:36

Gill Furniss MP (Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough, Labour)

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also want to pay tribute tribute to my hon. Friend, the Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who ably Kingston upon Hull North, who ably led the APPG previously for her years of tireless campaigning and the Minister for the countless the Minister for the countless hours he spent working on this and his willingness to engage with myself and other members on this myself and other members on this issue. Every time we speak to him. The infected blood scandal is rightly being described by the rightly being described by the chair of the infected blood inquiry, Sir Brian Langstaff, as the worst treatment disaster in the history of our National Health Service.

The infected between the 1970s and the early 1990s, tens of thousands of people were knowingly exposed to unacceptable risks and infected with HIV, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. More than 3000 patients received contaminated blood or clotting products, many of which were sourced from high risk paid donors in the US, including prisoners and drug addicts. The result was catastrophic, claiming at least 2900 lives in some particularly horrifying cases, children as young as two were used as guinea pigs in clinical trials without the knowledge or consent of their parents, doctors, the blood services and successive governments did not put patient safety first, and many of those affected have had to live with the consequences of these failures for decades.

One such person is my constituent John, who I know will be watching today. Like many hepatic, hepatitis, many hepatitis C patients. Sorry, I've lost that little bit there once. John was initially unaware of his illness. Then once he became symptomatic, he spent 40 years desperately trying to figure out what was causing a myriad of inexplicable symptoms. The impact of this search for answers has had on every aspect of his life cannot be understated, and it is only after a chance conversation several years ago, when a doctor

14:45

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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offhandedly asked if he'd ever received a blood transfusion, did the truth come to light? John's the truth come to light? John's story is tragically mirrored in thousands of households across the country. John, the survivors and country. John, the survivors and bereaved families have battled for justice for too long. But in May 2024, hope was brought to many of these homes. When Sir Brian Langstaff delivered his landmark report, the previous government report, the previous government committed to providing compensation to those affected by this catastrophe and this government, upon its election six weeks later, rightfully set aside nearly £13 billion for compensation and rapidly launched a compensation scheme.

Yet as we stand here over two years on from that final report, that that promise remains unfulfilled, and for the vast majority, the sense of exhaustion, anger and desperation within the community is palpable. These issues could have been mitigated if, as records of his operation of my constituents operation have been destroyed, and I want to put on the record that I am not casting any aspersions whatsoever on the current staff of either hospital or the trust. My constituent tried to claim from the Skipton Fund in the early 2000, and got turned down for lack of evidence, and was told that because of the need for records from the hospital, they applied to the England Infected Blood Support Scheme.

However, this request for compensation was declined again due to lack of evidence. They have since tried to appeal this decision. However, it was of course declined because of the requirement to present new evidence. Now, my constituent is concerned that there may not be registered with the Infected Blood Compensation Authority in order to receive compensation. Through that, I have written to the Department of Health and Social Care. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to know the status of any intervention.

I think it is worth that department checking if there is evidence that any other people who were treated by the Hospital of Saint Cross in my constituency in October or around October 1977, were infected in the way that my constituent appears to have been. I'm also keen to know what happened to my constituents records, how and why they were lost and why they were destroyed. Given that my constituent has registered with the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme last October, I want to ensure that they receive the compensation that they are owed.

So could the Minister assure me that this case will be investigated and that my constituent will be updated on its progress, and that they will receive any compensation compensation that they are owed? I will, of course, provide details to my ministerial colleagues of this specific case. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make a broader point. As has been made by many hon. Members across the House today, the duty of candour that I am glad our government is committed to bringing in through the Hillsborough Law cannot come into effect soon enough.

Hopefully it will deter future examples of egregious state failure such as this, and also deter such behaviour in the private sector, which the duty of candour will have some relevance to in certain circumstances. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

14:48

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Saving the best for last. Doctor Peter Prinsley. >> And thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for Speaker. I thank the Member for Eltham and Chislehurst for bringing this debate and the many other hon. this debate and the many other hon. Members who have given marvellous speeches in this debate this afternoon. I am new to this debate in Parliament, but I am not new to this issue, for I remember the very first patients that we infected with Aids in 1988.

I was an ENT registrar at the Royal Free Hospital right here in London. Now, the Royal Free has a large haemophilia unit for the treatment of patients with bleeding disorders caused by lack of clotting factors in the blood. As we have heard, factor eight was derived from pooled blood donation from donors in the United States. Incidentally, people paid to donate blood, unlike here in the United Kingdom. Now, I wrote my very first scientific paper on the management of tonsillectomy in haemophilia patients who would believe that you would be brave enough to take out the tonsils of a patient with haemophilia, but we were able to do so now, the patients that we saw started dying, not of bleeding disorders, but of the HIV with which we'd unknowingly infected them.

I met such patients over several years, and then I stopped meeting them because they'd mostly died. Then we had hepatitis and deaths from cirrhosis and liver cancer. And still we have deaths and many bereaved families. Now. We doctors didn't realise what we were doing to our patients until it was far too late. We cannot change history, however much we regret our actions, but there is surely something we can do. There is something we can do and do it. We must.

Our government has committed billions to this scheme, and that is exactly right. But we must go faster, for that is why we are here today having this debate. Thousands are yet to start a claim. So we are formed and people are dying each week. So it is our duty to sort this out.

14:50

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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Doctor. So proud with that >> Doctor. So proud with that contribution. And the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Lisa Smart. Thank you. >> Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The infected blood scandal and the 30,000 or so people who were infected with HIV or hepatitis or infected with HIV or hepatitis or all of the above has been discussed in this House many times. But the numbers, the sheer scale of the scandal are still hard to comprehend. The hon. Member for Eltham and Chislehurst laid out the background compellingly to start this debate, and I congratulate him on securing it. And others have spoken of perhaps the most horrifying element children were subject to unsafe and unethical clinical testing in the 1970s and 80s.

This testing, this experimentation continued for more than 15 years. It involves hundreds of people and infected most with hepatitis B, hepatitis C and HIV. The trials involved children with blood clotting disorders when families had often not consented to them taking part, and the majority of those children who were experimented on are now dead. It's not just those who were infected, of course. The number of those affected by the scandal are far higher. And while we welcome the steps the government has taken in progressing the compensation scheme, it is clear that the job is not yet done.

The changes the government has brought in will mean more compensation for those who have been impacted by the infected blood scandal, payments being sent out to victims as part of the wider £11 billion plus allocated by the government in the 2024 Budget to compensate victims. But in the last two months to June, just 217 people have received compensation payments, and at that rate, far too many of the victims will not receive their compensation by the 2029 deadline. The pace must increase, a point that's been well made in this in this debate by the hon.

Ladies from both Clinical and Newport East, as well as others, the Liberal Democrats welcome the improvements to the scheme that the government set out earlier this year. These changes will hopefully deliver some of the justice that victims have been calling out for. But there is clearly a strength of feeling that this scheme still does not go far enough. And the member, in opening the debate from Chislehurst, laid out some of those well-founded concerns. The Hillsborough Law and the failure to deliver it so far has also been raised by many members across the House, and their right to do so.

It would extend the duty of candour to all public officials, and it was a manifesto commitment from this government. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's also a promise that has been repeated by the Prime Minister and several other Ministers since. Despite repeated talk of an unwavering commitment, this vital reform is still not being delivered and we don't know when it will be. So I would really welcome any update the Paymaster General could give when he's concluding the debate about any progress that we might expect and when we might expect it.

With this scandal, as with too many others, the inability to deliver both timely compensation and complementary legislation extends people's fears of a culture of cover up. We see in so many instances, the breakdown of trust between the people we represent and our politics. So delivering this compensation at pace and delivering the Hillsborough law would both be a statement of intent to change our political culture. It's one of the vital building blocks that can start to repair this house's fractured relationship with the public, an essential step to recover trust that is more vital today than at any other point in my lifetime.

Many members have spoken of their constituents who've been impacted by this scandal. My constituent, Catherine from Marple Bridge, is one of so many who provided testimony to the compensation authority. Catherine is both a daughter handling the estate of her father. He was infected and she is affected. Catherine's thorough, detailed testimony was calm, it was thoughtful, and it was delivered with a remarkable clarity. It was a testament to her strength of character. Last year's damning report on compensation showed that lessons, not enough lessons had been learned, and survivors such as Catherine continue to be left out in the cold.

The impact, of course, extends to those who have lost family members to contaminated blood. People like Angus Lacey Stewart, who contacted my hon. Friend the Member for Bicester and Woodstock. Angus, dad and granddad both died due to health conditions caused by infected blood. Angus lost his dad prematurely, but he also told my hon. Friend how his dad's infection at the age of 14 changed his dad's life and robbed Angus of the relationship he might have wanted with his father, who suffered from poor mental and physical health.

Angus understands there are many claims and supports the prioritisation of infected claimants, but he cannot understand why he's been told not to expect payment until 2030. Angus told my hon. Friend that he feels let down and ignored by the government. He won't be alone. Liberal Democrats have been consistent in urging the government to end the record of failure from successive governments, and finally answer the needs of victims. We, along with others, committed in our 2019 manifesto to act on the inquiry's recommendations, ensuring a just settlement for victims and their families.

And we voted in favour of legislation. When it's been brought to this House, we encourage the government to be as effective and visible as possible in the way that they deliver the promised compensation scheme for the all too many victims. And after so many years of secrecy, of deceit and delay, the government must deliver on the start that they have made to ensure full transparency over the progress of the scheme and open, ongoing, effective communication with all those affected. I'll close my remarks.

Madam Deputy Speaker, by paying tribute to the victims and their families, and particularly to those doughty campaigners who have worked for decades for the compensation and the justice they deserve.

14:56

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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I call the shadow Minister, Mike wood. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I want to begin by thanking honourable and right hon. Members from across the House for their thoughtful, measured and often heartbreaking contributions this afternoon. But if I may give afternoon. But if I may give particular mention to the hon. Gentleman from Eltham and Chislehurst for securing and leading this debate, and to my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East and for East Hampshire. My hon.

Friend the Member for East Grinstead and Uckfield, who spoke movingly about cases involving their constituents and the heartbreaking effects that this scandal has had upon them. The infected blood scandal remains the most devastating treatment disaster in the history of our National Health Service. The scale of the tragedy, the lives cut short, the families shattered, the trust destroyed is something that this House and indeed the entire country must never forget. The victims of this scandal, those who are infected and those who are affected have spent decades fighting the establishment for truth and for justice.

And now that the truth has been laid bare by Sir Brian Langstaff inquiry, it is the duty of the state. And that means all of us in this House to deliver that justice without further delay. It is entirely right that we begin by recognising the significant progress that has been made. The establishment of the Infected Blood Compensation Authority and the commencement of actual payments, represents a monumental milestone in this decades long journey, and in doing so, I want to again place on record my profound gratitude for the foundational work done by my right hon.

Friend the Member for Salisbury. When he was the Paymaster General, it was under his determined stewardship that the government accepted the moral case for compensation and passed the legislation that was needed to establish the delivery body that administers this scheme. He faced an incredibly complex technical challenge, but his deep personal commitment to the infected and affected communities ensured that the crucial groundwork, including the initial framework for multibillion pound interim payments, was laid. And I know that the current Paymaster General and the dedicated civil servants at Ibca, a building upon that foundation and working intensely to stand up a complex compensation scheme from scratch.

And we welcome the fact that more than £2.1 billion has now been paid out to more than 3200 victims. And for those living infected victims who are already registered with existing support schemes, these payments offer a long overdue measure of financial security and a tangible recognition of the horrific wrongs that they have endured. Getting billions of pounds out of the door to those who need it is no small administrative feat, and we support that. The progress that the Minister and the government have made on that front.

However, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is exactly because we share the government's desire to see this scheme succeed that we must urgently raise the profound frustrations being voiced by those who are still waiting. While progress for living infected victims on existing schemes has accelerated the reality for the thousands of affected victims and the estates of infected victims who have tragically passed away is still one of agonising delay. Since the registration of intent opened, more than 18,500 registrations have been made.

Yet we know from Ithaca's own figures that that the number of payments made to affected individuals, the widows and widowers, the parents and the children of those who died remains painfully low. And the same is true for those claiming on behalf of deceased infected individuals. Out of thousands of registrations, only a tiny fraction of claims from estates and affected people have been fully processed and paid. We hear from families across the country who feel they are stuck in an unbearable limbo.

They have watched the inquiry conclude they've heard the apologies from the despatch box. They have seen the compensation scheme launched, yet they still wake up every day wondering when their claim will even be assessed. For families who have already lost loved ones, time is a cruel companion, of course. Many of those waiting are now very elderly. We know the tragically, victims and affected family members are dying before they receive the compensation they are owed. We must ask ourselves what comfort is compensation scheme if it arrives too late? It has stated it expects to bring in all currently registered claims from living infected people in estates by March 2027, but we must push to see if that timeline can be safely accelerated because for some, even next year is simply too far away.

And of course, as more time passes, the real. The real value of those offers reduces. So will the Minister look again at uprating payments in line with CPI so that victims and their families are not financially disadvantaged because their claims took longer to process? And this brings me to a specific acute concern that has been raised repeatedly by victims and their families, as well as by hon. Members today, and one which I urge the Minister to address. It is the issue of the burden of proof and the requirement to provide evidence that is, in many cases, practically impossible to access.

Let me give the House a harrowing example. There are parents who suffered the unimaginable trauma of watching their children die as a result of infected blood products decades ago. Under the current requirements, some of these mothers and fathers are being told that to process their claim, they must provide documentary evidence showing that they lived with their child at the time. Madam Deputy Speaker, think about what is being asked here. We're asking grieving parents to source official paperwork from 40 or 50 years ago to prove that their own child lived under their roof.

How many of us in this house could easily produce a four decade old document proving our living arrangements with our own families? It is not just an administrative burden, it is deeply distressing and retraumatising. It makes victims feel as though they are not believed. And we are seeing similar issues with the states trying to track down decades old medical records or navigating complex probate rules for relatives who died in the 1980s and 1990s. We understand that the authority has a duty to protect public funds and to ensure that claims are valid.

However, we cannot allow the pursuit of administrative perfection to become the enemy of compassion when the state has been responsible for the systematic systemic cover up and the destruction of medical records. As the inquiry so damningly revealed, that same state cannot turn around and demand that victims produce these very same missing records, the burden of proof must be relaxed. We must always be mindful that we are talking about huge sums of taxpayers money, but we need a system that operates on the balance of probabilities, applying flexibility, common sense and above all, humanity, allowing those caseworkers at Ibca to display the compassion that many members have spoken about this afternoon.

So I urge the government to work with Ibca to review these evidence requirements immediately. We must empower caseworkers to make compassionate judgements, rather than forcing them to stick to rigid bureaucratic checklists. The punish the victims of state failures. I know the Minister shares my desire to see this resolved. The tone of our debate today reflects the shared resolve of this House, but good intentions must now translate into urgent operational improvements. We need to rapidly scale up the processing of claims for the affected and the estates.

We need to ensure that the legal and administrative support that is provided to claimants is truly adequate to help them navigate these hurdles, without adding to their distress. We on these benches stand ready to support the government in any measures needed to expedite this process. We will vote for the necessary resources. We will support the necessary regulations, and we will work collaboratively to unblock any legislative hurdles. Madam Deputy Speaker, for more than 50 years, the victims of the infected blood scandal were ignored, gaslit and denied justice.

This Parliament promised to do everything that we could to right this wrong, and significant progress has been made, and we praise all those who have worked hard to deliver it. Above all the incredible work of the many victims and their families over many years. But our promise is not kept until the final payments are made, until the grieving mother is recognised, and until the families who lost everything finally see the tangible justice they have fought their entire lives to achieve. So let us work together across the political divide to tear down the remaining bureaucratic barriers.

Let us push to move faster, to act with maximum compassion, and to finally close this darkest of chapters with the dignity and urgency that the victims so deeply deserve.

15:07

Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)

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I call the Minister. Minister Nick Thomas-symonds. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a solemn privilege to close It is a solemn privilege to close this debate, and I think it has been an extraordinarily moving debate that we've seen and observed this afternoon. And I want to start by paying tribute to the backbench committee. Indeed, to my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham and Chislehurst. He always, when I see him, says that he is the person to ask me the awkward questions and quite rightly too.

And he always does so with great courtesy, and speaks with great passion, if I may say so, on behalf of the infected blood community, and does, as across the House has been recognised, remarkable work as chair in the APPG and of course has a very able and loyal deputy. The Member for Perth and Kinross, who I know supports that work and also puts such a great deal of time into this. And I want to thank the Shadow Minister for the tone of his remarks.

I echo what he said about the right hon. Member for Salisbury. I worked very much with him across the despatch box when I was the shadow, and he has always continued that since. And also thank the hon. Member for Hazel Grove for the constructive tone that she took, and I want to thank members from New Forest, East Newport, East East Hampshire, Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough, Beckenham and Penge, Blyth and Ashington, East Grinstead and Uckfield and indeed Llanelli, Bury St Edmunds and indeed rugby, all of whom made a significant contribution and spoke very powerfully on behalf of their constituents.

And at the outset, can I just make a general point that so many moving individual cases have been raised here this afternoon, some quite specific points in relation to my hon. Friend the Member for Blythe and Ashington, who raised the case of Sean Kavanagh. He spoke many times on behalf of Sean Caverns. Just to be clear, the change that I made in the third regulations does allow someone to switch from receiving support scheme payments or periodic payments to a lump sum, and I am very concerned by what he has said is happening to Sean.

And I say to my hon. Friend, indeed others, please do follow up this debate with the detail so that I can come back to them. I'd say exactly the same thing to the hon. Lady for East Grinstead and Uckfield, and I was very moved listening to what she said about her constituent Josie. And I remember very much writing to the hon. Lady about that case. So I'd be very much like the details put to me of what has happened in that claim process and this reference to what I've put into the letter.

My hon. Friend for Newport East speaks movingly. Like her, I think the Smiths, the Smiths family's dignity in the face of extraordinary grief after the loss of calling, has been nothing short of inspirational, actually, over the years, and my hon. Friend speaks very powerfully for them. I know some constituents, including those of my hon. Friend the Member for rugby would prefer not to be named, and I completely understand that. But of course, again, if there's a way of getting details to me, I would be very grateful.

And then indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham and Penge. Of course, he actually has a constituent who has come along today and is in the public gallery, and I would acknowledge his contribution. His constituent Susan, and her two daughters, one of whom I think Louise, is in the public gallery, obviously in the memory of George. And I think the work that my hon. Friend does, indeed, them coming along to the debate today, I think is very, very meaningful indeed, very grateful for their time this afternoon.

More broadly, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do want to mark, first of all, the progress that has been made because, as so many honourable and right hon. Members have said, this was a scandal decades in the making, and they were decades before any form of acknowledgement or justice started to be delivered. Now, as has been pointed out, we there are now over 2.7 billion offers of billion pounds worth of offers that have been made. More than £2.1 billion has been paid in compensation.

Members have quite rightly held me to account today on speed, and I'm going to come back to speed of delivery in a moment. But we should acknowledge in this debate those who waited so long, especially those who are no longer with us, and we owe it to them to take the time to recognise the hardships they suffered. But the extraordinary resolve of the infected blood community as well. The topic has been debated many times in this House and I hope the House will have seen.

I always try to make every effort to be here personally for these debates, because I think it's important that I personally hear what honourable and right hon. Members are saying, and indeed, when the. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham brought forward her amendment to what was the Victims and Prisoners Act in 2023. I supported that from opposition and indeed, driving forward. This work has been a key priority as a government since I became the Minister, I brought forward three sets of regulations before the House.

Most recently, we've held a public consultation which asks for proposed changes for feedback on proposed changes to the compensation scheme, and I updated the House in April with the changes the government is going to be putting in place. I will shortly bring before the House a full set of regulations to make those legislative changes, and I am very grateful for what the shadow Minister said about support for those regulations when they come. The compensation scheme is rightly the largest that any government has ever launched alongside, as I say, the £1.4 billion of interim payments, over £2.1 billion has now been paid out.

But I totally recognise and hear that there is, of course, still a great deal of work to be done. I would just pick up, just for a moment, though, the ibkr approach of payments and I say to the House, Ibkr is operationally independent. It's very important that it is. Following Brian Langstaff recommendations. But that said, in terms of delivery, Ibkr uses a test and learn approach, which means that at the start the numbers are small, but then you will get to an exponential increase in the numbers.

Now that is what happened with the number of infected people who were paid towards the end of 2025. But as the House has rightly observed, the target of paying the first affected person before the end of 2025 was met. But the affected numbers are relatively small at the moment because they will go into that exponential phase. And as I've said to the House before, many occasions, yes, you have what I call those backstops, which are the bulk of infected people being paid by the end of 2027, the bulk of affected people being paid by the end of 2029.

They are not targets. I stand ready to assist Ibca to ensure that we can drive forward with delivery as quickly as possible, but the reason those numbers are small and affected people is precisely because of that test and learn approach. I will obviously hold it to account in terms of the moment at which the speed of that payment increases. I would say, though, and I think a number of honourable and right hon. Members have reflected this today. I've been on more than one occasion to his office in Newcastle.

I have to say, the claims managers and the staff are dedicated, they are diligent, and they are certainly building a system that I believe is sympathetic. I am troubled by. I be frank with the House. I'm troubled by some of the contributions today when they've spoken about the level of evidence being required. And I say that for two reasons. Number one, this is often an ask for evidence of things that happened a long time ago. But secondly, what we also know from Sir Brian Langstaff inquiry is there was deliberate document destruction.

Now, for those two reasons, I have repeatedly said from the despatch box that I expect not just a sympathetic approach to evidence, but also some assistance, some pointers as to where evidence is required, where it might be able to be obtained. And I hope that members across the House, when they're writing to me about individual cases, can give me some specific examples of where there have been issues regarding the level of evidence, which I am more than happy to go to take up.

The other thing I would say to members across the House is I have and I'm setting up a new feedback mechanism for this scheme. It was one of the things that I was expected to do, and Sir Brian Langstaff was very clear. He expected that to be done. What I wasn't prepared to do, frankly, was just create some sort of correspondence sifting mechanism. What I wanted to create was a system whereby the concerns that were raised went to the appropriate level.

Now, in some cases that will be because board. But in some cases it will be things that have to be elevated back to the Cabinet Office and back to me. I expect to publish the first quarterly summary of issues raised through this mechanism in early July, but I will continue to push forward to ensure that that mechanism is working in the way it should be, and the victims have a voice going forward. Now, I'll try and go through the

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different themes that, of course I will give. I'll go through tomorrow on my

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I'll go through tomorrow on my friend. And again, I pay tribute to to the work that he's done to move things forward. But, but when he's things forward. But, but when he's receiving those representations from the community, the infected from the community, the infected and affected, how does he intend to put them into effect and change the the compensation process? Because the compensation process? Because that's what they're making a approaches about. And we raise all of us a number of those that where we're asking for changes in the regulations that he's about to lay

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before the House Minister. So it depends on the nature of the of the change, because some of the things that have been described today, like, for example, this issue, which is being described as burden of proof. I've already burden of proof. I've already repeatedly said from the despatch box the sympathetic approach that I would expect. So it depends upon would expect. So it depends upon the specific issue that's being raised. And in some cases it will be things that I would expect Ibcs be things that I would expect Ibcs board to be dealing with, rather than me as a Minister.

But the point is, I want the issue that's raised to go to the appropriate level to ensure that it is, then that it then has an appropriate response. Now we'll obviously see how this mechanism works. And I'm sure my hon. Friend, through the all party parliamentary group, will start to see people having experience of it. And I'll of course, be very interested to hear that feedback. Could I also say on an ethical research, because that's been raised across the House in the debate today, I don't think there is any amount of money that could ever make up for the experimentation on children that happened as a consequence of this scandal and the the right hon.

Member for East Hampshire who represents Treloar's, will be aware from his constituents of how frankly heinous this situation was. What I would say to the House is I accepted a recommendation. It was from Sir Robert Francis, actually, who had conducted a review of the scheme. When I came in, it was one of the things on my desk, and I became a Minister, that there would be an amount of money. That is not in any sense the totality of the harm that is done.

It is an amount of money within a much larger amount, but it is there as a reflection, a marker of what was particularly heinous in terms of experimentation. And that is the context in which the Unethical Research award. That's why I accepted it. It was a slightly. They were lower sums than the ones that are before the House today, but I accepted that recommendation because I thought it was important that there was that recommendation in the scheme. But the amount that we see are not the totality of the settlements.

I think the hon. Member for right, right, hon. Member for New Forest East asked this question about differences between the amount of compensation awarded to living and deceased infected people. Now, I do recognise that financial loss awards may be lower for awards to estates, which I think is the point he was making. That is because though the future financial losses for estate claims are paid to the infected person's dependants rather than the estate, which I think is the point that he was making.

There's then the point around psychiatric disorders, and the government certainly has been looking about how to make the severe health condition award for psychiatric disorders more accessible and with a less intrusive ask for evidence. Now, we examined using there was types of evidence, and these are such difficult issues evidence such as suicide to qualify for the award. But imposing, in my view, a retraumatizing requirement would place an unconscionable burden on families who have already suffered decades of mental suffering.

So when designing any compensation scheme, the government has to ensure that no mechanism or award criteria inadvertently creates a risk to potentially vulnerable people. So instead, the new special category Mechanism Severe Health Condition Award allows applicants to access more compensation for mental health problems they experienced in excess of the core route. And I repeat, without an unreasonable ask for evidence on the recognition of carers, which again, I thought was a really important point that came up in the course of the debate.

The care award is provided to people making a claim as an infected person, or as the representative of a deceased infected person's estate. A living infected person claiming compensation can, however, instruct Ibca to pay all or some of this award to an eligible affected person who provided them with care. Now, the hon. Member for East Hampshire also asked me about criminal prosecutions, and the House will realize that, quite rightly, it's not for me as a Minister or indeed any other Minister to make prosecutorial decisions.

That is rightly a matter independent of government for the Crown Prosecution Service. But I thought the House would welcome an update on this. So given the nationwide scope of the independent inquiry and in the absence of a clear lead police force, the National Police Chiefs Council has engaged experienced senior investigators to conduct a review of the available evidence, and they've been assessing the extensive information that was provided by the inquiry, who have been supporting the investigation fully, and legal advice to look at next steps now.

In March, I wrote to the National Police Chiefs Council to reaffirm mine and the government's commitment to make any and all relevant information around the infected blood inquiry available to the prosecuting authorities where requested, so that an informed decision could be based on the evidence now in May and the hon. Member for East Hampshire may be aware of this already, but the National Police Chiefs Council published a statement that its initial review that was focused on events at Treloar's did not provide sufficient information for a viable criminal investigation.

However, terms of reference are now being developed. For a further review of the remaining chapters. Decisions around that investigation and the time frame are obviously for the Npcc to take, but the House should be assured that I stand ready to assist in providing evidence in any way possible. I know my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli, asked about affected estates eligibility. Now, it is right that following the inquiry's additional report, we've amended the scheme so that the estate of a deceased affected person is now eligible to claim compensation where an affected person passed away between the 21st of May 2024 and 31st of March 2031.

And actually on that, the recommendation from Sir Brian Langstaff was a cut off of the 31st of December 2029. But we've actually extended that a couple of years further. Can I pick up on the issue of interferon, because that was raised by a number of members. And first of all, the government has accepted the inquiry's recommendation to introduce a new higher level award for infected people who were treated with interferon. The new level to be called Compensation Award, will provide more financial loss and care compensation for the full two years after treatment and be available to anyone treated with interferon who would otherwise be receiving a level two award.

And I didn't recognise. I think it may have been the hon. Lady. The point about a 12 week minimum, which I didn't recognise, but I'm sure when I look at the detail of the case, I can I can look into that. I think the point, though, that was being made to me was twofold really, first of all, around evidence and transparency, which I think the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross Shire made. The government has a technical a technical expert group that gives advice to government.

One of the things I've said is that we need transparency on its members, on its minutes and on its evidence. So my attitude on this is to publish it so that it is out there and people can see it. So that's the first point. But second, and I think this is the the issue that was raised to me, I think by a couple of members, it's about the long term impact. And on that, if someone has experienced long term impacts following interferon treatment, that's impacted on their ability to work or their need for care, they may be eligible for additional compensation through the special Category Mechanism Severe Health Condition Award, and that ensures that those with those long term side effects do receive additional financial support.

Could I just pick up a couple of other points? I know the hon. Lady for Rutland Mountain is no longer in her place, but the point she raised, which is around inheritance tax and secondary transfers. That is a matter that I hope I have rectified and was announced in the Budget last year, but I will certainly follow up with the hon. Lady on the specific case that she raised, also on the duty of candour. And I think a number of members have mentioned that the House should be in no doubt about my commitment to the Hillsborough Law and the duty of candour.

I believe that we are well over 90% of the way there. I think as the House has been updated before, the outstanding issue on the Hillsborough law is how exactly we strike that balance between a security and intelligence services, but I am very confident that we can resolve that satisfactorily, and I look forward to driving forward the work on the Hillsborough Law, which I think will be a landmark moment in terms of the legal duty that we're talking about. I mean, this House, we think of so many of the scandals that even in my 11 years as a member of Parliament have been coming before us, and they all have that similarity that Sir Brian Langstaff, in his inquiry, said that it wasn't really about specific people who were involved in a conspiracy.

If that was the case, you could identify them and they could be prosecuted. What Sir Brian Langstaff said it was about was a culture of institutional defensiveness that actually what people do when terrible things happen is they often either protect their own reputations or the reputation of the institution in which they serve. And I think we'll have a landmark moment when that law goes on the statute book, but it will then be about driving cultural change beyond it that will try to ensure that terrible scandals like this don't happen in the future.

I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, this compensation scheme exists because it's absolutely the right thing to do, but it exists because of the way campaigners over many, many years continued in the face of state denial. To drive this forward because of suffering for them and their families. Now, we cannot in this House change the past, but we certainly can mark it and remember it. And it was a solemn privilege for me to attend the Infected Blood Memorial Committees organised service of remembrance in Saint Paul's Cathedral last month.

It was designed by

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The community, for the community, and it was a profoundly moving moment. And I know that the moment. And I know that the committee and I was privileged to speak to the members of the Committee for ably chaired by Clive Committee for ably chaired by Clive Smith when I was at Saint Paul's. I know they are continuing their important work towards the National important work towards the National Memorial, and I know they take a very open approach to seeking the community's views at every community's views at every opportunity.

And for me, that service of remembrance underscored the importance of getting this right. As I think my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham and Penge pointed out. Absolutely crucial to get the compensation scheme right, but it's actually one of a number of recommendations that Sir Brian Langstaff made. We owe it collectively as a House to get that right for future generations, so that we can ensure that nothing like this can happen again. I believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the very least we can do.

15:30

And, Clive Efford to wind up. >> And, Clive Efford to wind up. >> Deputy Speaker. I won't detain the House. I just want to thank everyone who contributed to the everyone who contributed to the debate. Thank you for the thoughtful consideration of all the points that people have raised, but from my right hon. Friend, I just got one request that before he lays the regulations, could I meet with him so that we could discuss some of the issues that we've raised in today's debate, if that's at all possible.

But thank you again to everyone who contributed. I hope we've done justice to the people who are concerned about this issue. The infected and the affected who are watching the proceedings today.

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And the question is, as on the I. I.

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I'm going to know the ayes have it, the ayes have it a point of

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order, Claire. Madam Speaker, I rise on. A point. Of order. I wonder if.

15:31

Points of Order Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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>> I wonder if. >> You could assist. >> The House. >> The Department for transport has this afternoon published the this afternoon published the Heathrow expansion National Policy statement, the HENPS, alongside supporting documents and a major consultation. Given the significance of this decision, with implications for communities across a wide area, for the government's own climate commitments and for connectivity across the whole of the United Kingdom, could you confirm whether the Secretary of State for transport has given any indication to the chair that she intends to come to this House to make an oral statement? If not, would you agree that this House ought to expect the government to come here first, rather than learning a major consultation through a written ministerial statement?

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I thank the hon. Member for giving notice of this point of order. I have received no notice from Ministers that they intend to make a statement on this matter. make a statement on this matter. This House know, this House knows I have no power to compel a Minister to make a statement. But Mr. to make a statement. But Mr. Speaker has repeatedly stated how important it is that significant important it is that significant announcements are made here in this House.

First Minister's on the Front Bench will have heard the hon. Member and myself, and no doubt will be responding to that in due course. The hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate has informed the speaker that she will not proceed today with her debate on the potential merits of a full ban on fracking. Before I continue with business, if Ministers wish to swap If If we are ready, petition. Claire Young.

15:33

Petition - Claire Young

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The lives of people in and around Pilning are blighted by giant warehouses being built under warehouses being built under outdated 1950s planning consents, which lack modern safeguards. The seven side Warehouse Action Group seven side Warehouse Action Group has already presented a petition with over 2500 signatures to South Gloucestershire Council, and now has over 3500 signatures online. However, primary legislation is needed to resolve the problem. The petitioners, therefore, request that the House of Commons urge the government to encourage the planning authorities to revoke the 1957 planning consent for warehouse developments in Pilning, or to amend it as soon as possible to include appropriate conditions and restrictions to protect local communities.

And the petitioners

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remain. ET cetera. Petition, warehouse development

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and pilning. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.

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now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn, and I call Richard

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do now adjourn, and I call Richard Ford on sewage pollution and the River Otter. Richard Fall. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to raise the issue of sewage pollution in the River Otter, a river that flows through many of the Devon communities that I represent. And I should say at the outset that this morning I declined an offer of hospitality from the new chief executive of South West Water and its parent company, pennon Group. They offered breakfast in Parliament, which I did not accept because I was here in the chamber, and this morning I was trying to catch Mr.

Speaker's eye to talk about the Jurassic Coast Unesco World Heritage Site, and it's helpful that I get to talk a little bit about that now. But my office has written back to South West Water to request a separate

15:35

Adjournment: Sewage pollution and the River Otter

meeting with the chief executive, and then perhaps we can talk through some of the issues that I'll be raising in this debate today. And in fairness, this debate is also about issues that I think apply across the water industry and not just with pennon Group, but first, I'd like to pay tribute to the more than 75 water testers, campaigners and citizen scientists of the Otter River Catchment Action Group, or orca. The orca group developed out of the Otter Valley Association, and it has devoted almost as many hours to understanding and protecting the cherished river otter as there have been hours of sewage spills into

15:35

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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that river, which is saying something. The work of orca has provided much of the evidence in my provided much of the evidence in my contribution to this debate. The dedication of the orca volunteers represents the very best of Self-organised civic community action and public service. In action and public service. In particular, I would like to pay tribute to Bruce McGlashan, who passed away suddenly in April this passed away suddenly in April this year. It was just days after orca hosted a public meeting at the Institute in Ottery Saint Mary, and Bruce brought to orca his experience of 30 years as a manager within the Environment Agency.

He was also secretary of the River Otter Fisheries Association. Bruce was central to orca and helped us correspond with South West Water and the Environment Agency, and it's hard to believe that he, Peter Williams and I stood on the shingle outside the Otter Inn at Honiton just after a meeting with the Environment Agency, and that was just days before Bruce died. He should have lived to see the River Otter returned to full ecological health. The otter should be one of England's ecological success stories.

It runs through a beautiful valley in Devon which supports agriculture, tourism and recreation, and ought to be a rich and diverse habitat. But today most sections of the otter and its key tributary, the Wolf Otter, are classified by the Environment Agency as having poor ecological status. This places the rivers within those 20% of water bodies with the poorest ecological status in the country. This is an issue that doesn't just concern the local environment, it also concerns public health infrastructure and is increasingly a question of public trust and the ability of government to regulate companies that provide utilities properly.

The facts on the ground are damning. Data obtained from South West Water through freedom of Information and Environmental Information Regulation requests reveal an alarming picture of bacterial contamination in the River Otter. Between November 2024 and May 2025, average daily levels of E.coli measured in the river were five times higher than the acceptable level for safe swimming. After periods of rainfall, those levels spiked up to 100 times the safe limit remaining at increased levels for days or weeks at a time.

During the period analysed, E.coli levels exceeded the safe swimming limits on more than 90% of days. Budleigh Salterton, which is at the Where this River meets the sea, lost its blue flag status this year and that was because of a deterioration in water quality following the loss of that blue flag status, South West Water stated in public that the E.coli levels at Dudley's beach quote, could be caused by bird life in the new Otter Nature Reserve. Yet orca samples from the mouth of the River Otter show E.coli surges correlate with surges upstream of the nature reserve.

We should be honest about the scale of the sewage problem. This challenge is made more difficult by the fact that regular monitoring has been limited. Until recently, nobody was routinely measuring E.coli levels along the Otter. Orca volunteers are collecting samples every two weeks. They do so at three locations along the river, building a much needed evidence base to understand pollution levels, rainfall impacts and likely sources of contamination. In 2024, South West Water released untreated sewage into the otter for more than 9500 hours.

In terms of duration, that's three times more untreated. Sewage hours spilled into the River Otter than into the Exmouth Bay. In 2025, there were more than 8000 hours of untreated sewage discharged into the river and its tributaries, following hundreds of monitored sewage overflow events. Untreated sewage is entering this river on a routine basis and at a scale that cannot be dismissed as a consequence of exceptional weather. Phosphate pollution further damages the river's ecology. High concentrations of phosphate cause algal bloom eutrophication and reduce oxygen levels in the water, causing significant harm to aquatic plants, fish and wildlife.

The evidence gathered by orca is striking. Their monitoring suggests that the presence of a single sewage treatment works on the river can increase harmful phosphate concentrations in the river by about 80% during the summer months. Their testing indicates that around 70% of phosphate found in the middle and lower otter can be attributed not to agricultural pollution, but to treated sewage effluent. One of the most frustrating aspects of this situation is the gap between the pledges that we've received from South West Water and the delivery that we've seen from that water company in August and October 2025, Southwest water's then CEO Susan Davie publicly committed to three critical objectives for the River Otter by the end of 2029.

And I will quote these three objectives. First, any storm overflow that is persistently releasing more than 20 times a year will be tackled following investigation of the cause. Second, where our assets are not performing as they should or where they are causing environmental harm, we will act. Third as part of our 2025 to 2030 investment programme. We're targeting improvements across the Otter catchment, including at Ottery Saint Mary, to reduce storm overflow use and lower phosphate in our treated discharges.

At the time, these commitments were welcome, but residents are entitled to ask what progress has been made in the last year. First, at the 11 worst discharge points along the river, there were still an average of 67 untreated discharges in 2025, not fewer than the 20 that we were pledged. Second, South West Water has published only a limited programme of what it describes as tactical improvements. That's hardly action. And third, despite repeated engagement from local campaigners and community groups, South West Water currently has no scheme to remove phosphate from treated effluent by 2030, nor a published plan to meet the commitments made by the former chief exec.

There was a time when South West Water talked about a phosphate reduction scheme for Honiton sewage treatment works. This would have removed 35% of all South West water sourced phosphate before 2030, according to South West Water. More recently, the scheme had been removed from the 2025 to 2030 plan, another consequence of sewage pollution is its impact on housing developments. East Devon District Council commissioned a water cycle study as part of their local plan. Honiton sewage treatment works, the largest treatment works on the river, is already operating at 40% above its capacity, and that is projected to rise to 73% above its capacity when future building plans are taken into account.

The East Devon District Council report identified many serious failings in South West Water's sewage infrastructure in the River Otter catchment. It includes three major sewage works, which are already operating in excess of their capacity. The excess untreated sewage is being discharged regularly into the River Otter. Effectively, South West Water has been using the otter as a conveyor. A free, open, half piped sewer resulting in significant environmental harm. The East Devon District Council report was plain. New housing approvals will require that South West Water delivers suitable additional treatment capacity.

The costs of inaction are mounting. We have environmental degradation, we have risks to public health. We have constraints on housing and additional pressure being added by new housing, and we have growing public frustration. Residents ask a simple question why must local communities accept continuing environmental damage, rising bills and insufficient investment in the infrastructure required to clean up this mess? According to Off-white's most recent Water company Performance report from 2425 South West Water, based on self-reported data, had 108 pollution incidents per 10,000km of sewer.

That is more than double the average in the sector. In fact, South West Water failed to meet its own performance targets for pollution incidents for each of the five years of the 2020 to 25 period, orcas trained citizen scientists have logged over 2800 individual tests and observations, whereas the Environment Agency over that period carried out 24 location tests on the River Otter. The public shouldn't have to rely on volunteers to provide the evidence base for environmental protection. The volunteer action that we've seen is invaluable, but safeguarding rivers must ultimately be a responsibility of water companies, of regulators and ultimately, the government.

Are we going to have to wait for years for the otter to be coaxed back to health? I'm curious, what specific measures might we see in the government's upcoming Clean Water bill that could potentially address these local issues? Residents living in towns and villages across this corner of Devon would love to know, because over 5000 people have signed a petition initiated in February by resident Mark Astley. Mark lives in Ottery Saint Mary and his family and he put together this petition.

I'll read the text if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, if environmental standards aren't being met, executives shouldn't be receiving bonuses, it continues. Government has introduced new powers intended to block payouts when environmental performance fails, but loopholes remain. Rewards can be restructured as retention payments or routed through parent companies, the petition concludes. To the public, that looks like bonuses by another name. The end goal is clear. It goes on. Close the loopholes, link the executive rewards directly to measurable environmental outcomes.

Cleaner rivers, healthier seas and fewer sewage discharges. Now, I know that this Minister wants also to see cleaner rivers and seas, and I know that she is committed to her brief. So I ask, can she confirm to the more than 50,000 signatories, those signatories who signed this petition, that these loopholes will be closed by new legislation? The River Otter is not a cost free extension of the Sewage Infrastructure Network, which enables bill hikes and increased shareholder returns. It is supposed to offer a living ecosystem, a valued recreational resource and an integral part of the lives of the people who live in East Devon.

The people who live along the banks of the otter are not asking for miracles. They are asking for honest monitoring, adequate infrastructure and accountability. Where commitments that were pledged are met, the river otter can recover. We have seen elsewhere that targeted investment in infrastructure and phosphate removal can make a real difference, but recovery will require urgency, transparency and a willingness to move beyond promises and towards delivery. Bruce Mcglashan's legacy will live on if the polluters, the regulators and we listen to and act on the citizen science carried out by the volunteers who I am representing today.

Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. Minister. Mary Craig. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to respond to this debate this afternoon on behalf of my colleague, the water Minister, my colleague, the water Minister, who is sadly unable to be with us because she is attending an international conference on the international conference on the marine environment. And can I begin by thanking the hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth for raising this important issue? Colleagues, can I just say that this government is absolutely determined to fix our broken water system because the situation we inherited, as he has rightly set out, is one where pollution warnings and sewage discharges were commonplace, where regulation was stripped back, where water companies were allowed to mark their own homework, and where there were simply no penalties for

15:49

Mary Creagh MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Coventry East, Labour)

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failure, and where incompetence and pollution was rewarded. That pollution was rewarded. That stopped with this Labour government. And I think we can say that we have And I think we can say that we have taken action not not just over the past two years, but we have seen action this week with the Secretary of State for the environment. Letter to the regulator about the plans for Thames Water and the plans for Thames Water and the investment plans there. So the action is continuing and it is ongoing now.

The River Otter reflects that failure. It's poor in the upper reaches, moderate water quality in the middle and poor again downstream, with excessive, excessive nutrient levels right across the catchment. South West Water has not met the standards that people rightly expect. Honiton the sewage treatment works has exceeded its permitted flow limits and its performance has fallen short. That is not acceptable because rivers like the otter are not lines on maps. They are places where families walk, children explore and where our nature and wildlife thrives.

They are part of our shared national inheritance, and they deserve better. We recognise that nutrient levels in the River otter are too high. This leads to excessive algal growth that harms local wildlife, and the Environment Agency has, under this government, stepped in challenging South West Water, increasing oversight and requiring improvement improvements. South West Water has had to fix failures in how it monitors and manages its network spill levels, as he has set out at some sites, have been absolutely unacceptably high and regulators have made clear this must improve.

We are seeing early improvements, but there is still much more to be done and we will hold South West water to account until it delivers. The Environment Agency is expanding monitoring of the river, and it welcomes the support of local groups, including the Ottawa Valley River Association and the River Otter Group. Orca and I do echo his tributes to Bruce McGlashan, 32 years working for the Environment Agency, and then he retires and has to carry on doing what he was doing as an Environment Agency officer.

And I do send my condolences to Bruce's families, and I pay tribute to Peter Williams as well, and I thank them both for the incredible efforts that they have made and watching The Dirty Waters documentary and just seeing the scale of the deregulation that happened under the previous government. I was absolutely furious. And of course, the water companies could do their data dumps, but unless you had a PhD in mathematics, no one could actually reverse engineer the maths to see what was really happening.

So there are these arguments about the data and the sources that I will come to, but I do want to thank put on record my thanks for their work, collecting data, raising concerns and building the evidence needed to drive positive change. I pay tribute to similar groups up and down the country who are helping us to hold these polluters to account. We will secure a fair deal for customers, we will rebuild public trust and we will protect the environment that supports health, nature and our economy.

Now, the Environment Agency has identified agriculture as the largest source of pollution in the otter, and we are taking action to tackle it. We are creating a single, clear set of rules for farmers. We are doubling farm inspections, enabling at least 6000 inspections a year by 2029, while working with farmers to raise their standards. This is an increase from around 700 inspections in 2021. We are increasing funding for environmental land management schemes from £800 million in 2023 24 to £2 billion by 2020 829, and that funding targets crucial issues like improving water quality.

We are also taking decisive action on sewage pollution, strengthening enforcement and holding them to account. We have the £104 billion of private investment from water companies to upgrade our ageing, creaking, leaking water infrastructure. This includes over £10 billion to improve around 2500 storm overflows in England by 2030, and £4.5 billion to reduce nutrient pollution over the same period, including upgrades to nutrient removal. At Feniton treatment works, we have set a target in our environmental improvement plan to reduce phosphorus from wastewater by 55% by 2030, putting us on track for an 80% reduction by 2038.

We are well on our way to delivering this, and phosphorus removal improvements were completed at church. Infant treating treatment works in 2024. We are requiring water companies to ring fence investment so that it is spent on infrastructure upgrades and not diverted elsewhere, and we have, as he notes, introduced the Water Special Measures Act to raise standards and enforce accountability. As of the 1st of January 2026, water companies must publish annual pollution pollution Incident Action Plans and by April, the first of each year.

Sorry, I've misread my own writing there. Madam Deputy Speaker, I must apologise to the House for that. It's water annual pollution incident reduction plans, not action plans. Reduction plans by April the 1st and under the previous government, these action and reduction plans were voluntary. Now they are mandatory and they will be. They. They are publicly out there so everyone can see what the water companies have set out to do. The act also introduced a requirement for spill monitoring at all emergency overflows, matching the pre-existing requirement to monitor discharges from storm overflows.

Two separate things. And it has given regulators powers to ban bonuses for executives at failing water companies and pursue criminal charges against bosses where needed. We have already stopped over £4 million in bonuses for the bosses of polluting water companies, and we have fined southwest Water this month over £1.8 million after the Brixham water supply incident. The cryptosporidium that was found there, a record penalty for a drinking water offence, one I believe, that comes from agriculture and sewage runoff, agricultural runoff, actually reflecting the seriousness of their failure in that incident where water companies fail, this government is acting.

I'm also concerned to learn that South West Water has made statements to local communities that did not reflect accurately, reflect the full position in relation to Honiton, the company told a local group it had sought a tighter permit limit and that was incorrect, and the Environment Agency challenged that directly, and the company has since acknowledged its statement was not a true reflection of events. It has apologised and committed to issuing a formal retraction. This is what accountability looks like and we will continue to enforce it, so I do hope he can pass on that reassurance to Mark Astley and the 50,000 petitioners that we are taking action also to tackle bonuses by the back door retention payments.

They must comply with the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law. And I'm also concerned to hear from him today that Budleigh Salterton, these gorgeous beaches, has lost its blue flag status, given that it is a designated bathing water site, and we have designated more sites in order to force water companies to up their games. But this is not how it's supposed to happen. It's not supposed to lose its blue flag. So we will also be taking that away to look into it.

Unlike the last government, we are committed to stopping pollution before it starts because if we take the rain water out of our sewers, we reduce pressure on the system and cut storm overflow spills. Capturing rainwater where it falls reduces the amount of water entering the network, and it's estimated that the average household roof collects 85,000l litres of rainwater each year, equivalent to around 4,000,000,000,000l annually across the UK. That's 1.6 million Olympic sized swimming pools. And of course, it all just runs off and is lost.

And then, of course, we enter the summer. The heat waves and drought ensues. Managing that water better can reduce discharges into rivers like the otter in the Clean Water Bill, which is coming in this next session of Parliament, we will commit to ensuring that regulatory mechanisms and funding support the delivery of these solutions, and we want to maximise the opportunities offered by better managing rain where it lands. This approach will benefit communities, the environment, it will prevent flooding and it will help with urban development, ensuring policies and services work better to deliver.

We recognise that the water sector does need reform, and the Clean Water Bill will deliver on commitments in the White Paper, driving reforms to transform the water system for good and secure a sustainable system for future generations. They will establish an enhanced regional planning function to help identify lower cost, higher impact solutions across whole catchment areas. Looking at it instead of individual works, looking at the entire river from source to sea, considering opportunities across sectors, this will improve water quality and supply.

It will also enable a greater uptake in preventative interventions and nature based solutions to reduce long term costs and improve resilience. The government is committed to improving the regulation of private sewerage to reduce pollution from these systems. The that I'm sure he's aware of. We recognise current arrangements of sewer adoption need review and we will consider how to enact that change on the on the otter, the environment agencies. Two the team there has carried out over Devon and Cornwall 900 inspections in 2020 526, including unannounced visits and prioritising the most environmentally sensitive sites, some of which will have been in the Otter catchment and the River Otter.

The Environment Agency is currently investigating potential offences at Ottery Saint Mary sewage attenuation Tank. It's in the process of agreeing an enforcement undertaking with South West Water and investigating event duration monitoring data from the site, so I'm sure that will be of interest to him, to the campaigners and to everybody who cares about this precious river. Let me conclude by saying our water system has not worked, Madam Deputy Speaker, as it should, but this government is taking strong, robust action to fix it, acting to clean up rivers, acting to hold the water companies to account for their pollution and their neglect and negligence, stopping them marking their own homework.

And we are securing record investment to rebuild infrastructure, tackling pollution at its source and restoring trust in this damaged industry. We are delivering a cleaner, healthier river otter for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

future generations to enjoy. The question is this house do now adjourn as many that have been, say I. The ayes have it, the ayes

09:00

Motion for an Unopposed Return

This debate has concluded

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