Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

14. What steps his Department is taking to support young people into work.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

Work experience and apprenticeships are central to improving the prospects of young unemployed people. In this year’s Budget the Chancellor announced funding for an additional 80,000 work experience placements, with eligibility widened to cover the 18 to 24 age group. In addition, we have announced tens of thousands of new apprenticeships. We will also be providing early access to the Work programme for young people from the most challenged backgrounds.

[Stuart Andrew]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. When the previous Government left office, apart from the record deficit, they left an extra 270,000 young unemployed. How are the Government working with business to ensure that new apprenticeships are what our economy needs to tackle youth unemployment and that we do not repeat the mistakes of the previous Government?

[Chris Grayling]

The Government have a very proactive campaign to engage employers, working with them to identify work experience places for young unemployed people. We have already located many thousands of opportunities for young people to gain their first foothold of experience in the workplace. In addition, my colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are working hard to engage employers in providing apprenticeship opportunities. So far they are being particularly successful in doing so and have met their targets for apprenticeships.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said about the importance of apprenticeships. There are 615 unemployed young people in my constituency. What other measures will he put in place to ensure that those young people have the skills they need to compete in the workplace?

[Chris Grayling]

The other policy that we will be introducing later in the summer is work academies, which will provide a mix of a short-term segment of training and a period of work experience, again designed to provide young people with a first foothold in the workplace and to give opportunities to those who do not have previous qualifications with a view to trying to get them into employment and build a lasting career.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

May I congratulate the Minister on his statement today and on his announcement that the new Work programme comes into force around now? Does he accept, however, that at a time when there is a shortage of jobs, the new providers might well be placing in jobs those who find it easiest to get jobs anyway, and that we need a back-up scheme to ensure the involvement of those who find it most difficult to get jobs or who do not want to work? Will he keep his mind open about reintroducing at some stage the future jobs fund—not that he will do so under that name, but under a Tory name?

[Chris Grayling]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. I do accept that there is a challenge in placing some people into work, which is why we have created a differential pricing structure to reflect the challenge of getting them into the workplace. The problem with the future jobs fund was the cost relative even to the outcome costs of other programmes run by the previous Government. Of course, in straitened financial times we have to seek not only what works in employment terms but what is affordable.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Government reinstate Labour’s jobs guarantee to ensure that young people are offered a job or training place after six months out of work?

[Chris Grayling]

What the hon. Lady does not understand is that Governments do not create jobs. Governments have to create an environment in which jobs are created by the private sector. Our job is to ensure that unemployed people are in the best possible position to take advantage of jobs when they are created by employers. It has been encouraging over the past few months to see the private sector creating far more full-time jobs, and I hope that that continues.

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[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

4. What estimate the Health and Safety Executive has made of the annual cost to the economy of inadequate workplace health and safety.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The Health and Safety Executive estimates that the annual cost to Great Britain of workplace injuries and work-related ill health is currently in the order of £20 billion.

[Ian Lavery]

Last year, there were 152 fatalities and 26,000 major injuries in the workplace and more than 800,000 people suffered a work-related illness. As a consequence of the cuts, the HSE has withdrawn a large number of workplace inspections. How will the Government ensure that those figures do not increase year on year?

[Chris Grayling]

As a former union official, the hon. Gentleman will know that the biggest challenge we face is employers who cut corners and break the rules. I would have thought that he would welcome a change in policy that focuses health and safety inspections not on low-risk, good employer sites, which have taken up so much resource in the past, but on employers who are not playing by the book and who endanger their employees and the public. That is where I want our regulatory effort to focus.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend has said, we all agree that health and safety legislation, when applied correctly, is very useful and important, but does he also agree that when it is applied inappropriately and gold-plated, it can cost jobs and damage the economy?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree. Let me be clear that I believe it is extremely important to get health and safety right. As the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) suggested, we need to protect people against real dangers in the workplace. However, we have to understand that if the system is over-bureaucratic, it will lead to the closure of businesses and cost jobs, and that does nobody any favours. The job of Government is to find the right balance, and that is what we seek to do.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

5. What arrangements he plans to put in place for transitional payments for those who will be affected by the introduction of universal credit.

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[Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)]

8. What recent progress he has made on reform of health and safety legislation.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

On 21 March, I announced an immediate review of health and safety regulation with a view to finding ways to simplify the regulatory burden on business. That review is being chaired by Ragnar Löfstedt, the professor of risk management at King’s College, London. He published a call for evidence on 20 May, the closing date for which is 29 July. We hope to publish the findings of the review later this year.

[Michael Ellis]

Some of the most inappropriate and burdensome health and safety recommendations on business come from unqualified, cowboy consultants. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is getting rid of cowboy wheel clampers; what are the Government doing to tackle those cowboy health and safety consultants?

[Chris Grayling]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. At the beginning of April, we launched a new online register of qualified health and safety consultants, precisely with a view to stamping out the cowboys. I want businesses and other bodies that need consultancy advice to work with qualified people who are capable of advising on what the law actually says, rather than working with people who would like to argue that the law does something they claim it says.

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

While the Minister is considering what reform to health and safety legislation might be necessary, I hope he will take into account the problems that the Health and Safety Executive has had at Sonae in my constituency. A major fire incident over the last few days has covered much of the industrial area as well as residential areas in acrid black smoke. Will he assure me that the HSE will work with the local authority, Knowsley council, the fire service and everybody else in the town, because we have reached the conclusion that this place should be closed down?

[Chris Grayling]

I am aware of the very unfortunate incident in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I cannot comment specifically on that investigation, but I can assure him that the HSE is investigating carefully what happened. Clearly, lessons must be learned. However, that underlines my view that the HSE should concentrate its resources on dealing with genuinely serious incidents and problems, and not on trivial matters.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

9. What his policy is on the couple penalty in the benefit system.

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[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

10. What recent progress he has made on the contracting arrangements for the Work programme.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am pleased to tell the House that as of today, all bar four of the contract package areas for the Work programme are fully operational; that many thousands of claimants have already been referred to the programme; and that the first two job outcomes have been achieved in one contract package area, where the provider was particularly quick off the ground.

[Priti Patel]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the providers that are participating in the Work programme? Does he agree that by involving that diverse range of providers, we can tackle the culture of welfare dependency and worklessness that grew under Labour, and ensure that work pays?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. One encouraging thing about the Work programme is the vast diversity of organisations taking part—from big international organisations to small businesses; and from some of our bigger more prestigious charities, such as the Prince’s Trust, down to individual charities—even a walled garden project is involved in Yorkshire—and many of our local colleges. Together, they can make a huge difference in what is a revolutionary approach to the problem of long-term unemployment in this country.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The Minister will remember an exchange of correspondence that he had with the Select Committee about TUPE cover. Now that the Work programme has gone live, the confusion over which posts will enjoy TUPE protection has continued. Of two contractors in the same area, one says that TUPE does apply and the other says that it does not—in some cases, to the same workers in some of the subcontracting companies. I urge the Minister to clarify this issue and ensure that his Department sets out clear advice about which positions have TUPE protection and the rules regarding people working in the Work programme.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady needs to remember that in many cases the programmes that we are replacing are very different to the Work programme. Pathways to work, for example, was simply six work-focused interviews. There will be cases in which TUPE does not apply. We have been very clear in saying to the providers that it is a matter between the providers themselves, the individuals and the former employers to resolve when and where it applies. It is not for the Department to offer legal advice to providers.

[James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)]

I welcome the speed with which the Work programme’s contracts have been put together, but some small voluntary organisations in my constituency who took an interest in it were not successful. Will the Minister reassure them that there will continue to be opportunities for them to play a role in getting people back into work more informally?

[Chris Grayling]

I can indeed. First, there will be further opportunities to contract to provide support for the Department. In addition, we do not believe that the supply chains to the Work programme providers are fixed in stone in perpetuity. The whole nature of the Work programme makes it desirable for the prime contractors to look for the best in the business at getting people into work. If any organisation is excellent, I am sure that it will find its way into the programme, even if it has not done so yet.

[Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of future trends in youth unemployment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The independent Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that unemployment will fall from its current level of 2.5 million to around 2 million by 2015. There is no separate forecast for youth unemployment, but over the medium term this would be expected to follow a broadly similar trend.

[Michael Dugher]

Fewer than 14% of my constituents are aged between 18 and 24, but this age group accounts for 35% of people looking for work. What is the Minister doing to ensure that private contractors in the new Work programme will not simply cherry-pick those areas of the country where it is easier to get young people into work and ignore areas performing less well economically, such as my constituency?

[Chris Grayling]

I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman. One of the things that we wondered as we went in to the contracting process was whether we would see a difference in the level of interest between different areas of the country, depending on the nature of the local labour market. That was not the case: the competition was equally intense across all areas. I hope that the presence of the Work programme, offering young people support after nine months—and in some cases after three months—of unemployment, combined with the additional support that we are providing though Jobcentre Plus to provide work experience opportunities for young people, will make a significant difference to their prospects as the months go by.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to deal with youth unemployment is not just through the 250,000 apprenticeships, but the roll-out of the 24 university technical pre-apprenticeship schools around the country?

[Chris Grayling]

I do indeed agree. Those schools, the increased numbers of apprenticeships, the work experience scheme, the support being provided through the Work programme and the additional measures we have announced recently to support 16 to 18-year olds all show that we have a Government who recognise the problem of youth unemployment, understand its severity and are doing something about it.

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

Does the Minister think that the record level of youth unemployment has been made worse by the botched ending of the Connexions career service, which was withdrawn with no replacement put in place? No transition plan has yet been put into place.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the causes of youth unemployment. He should look back to when the current increase started in 2003-04, in the good years under the previous Government. He should ask why their policies failed so badly.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

12. What recent meetings he has had on reform of disability living allowance.

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[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

16. What recent representations he has received on his Department’s use of 0845 numbers; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The Department—and, indeed, I myself—has received several communications from customers and their representatives asking about our policy on the use of 0845 numbers and whether we have considered changing to 0300 and/or geographical numbers. In the wake of those representations, I have asked the Department to undertake an internal review about our use of 0845 numbers and see what other options might be available to us.

[John Pugh]

I thank the Minister for that response, but given that benefit clients normally have no access to a landline, that calls from mobiles can cost as much as 40p and that they could be kept waiting for information on crisis loans and disability, should we not do more and consider talking to the Telephone Helplines Association about that to make faster progress than we are currently achieving with 0300 numbers?

[Chris Grayling]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We offer a ring-back service to anybody who is concerned about the cost of the call that they are making. None the less, there is a genuine problem and I have asked the Department to consider it and ascertain whether better options are available, particularly given the number of claimants who use mobile phones.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

17. What recent representations he has received on his policy on the date at which the state pension age for women will start to rise.

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[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

22. How many nationals of other EU member states are in receipt of benefits provided by his Department.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

One of the things that I was surprised to discover in the past few weeks is that the Department does not keep any record—nor, indeed, did it under the previous Government—of the nationality of people who claim benefits. This is something that we are moving to address; indeed, we want to find a way to ensure that we do so.

[Mr Hollobone]

It is indeed a scandal that we do not know how many EU nationals are claiming benefits funded by the British taxpayer. Is it not completely wrong for an eastern European citizen to be working in this country, with his family and children back home in Poland or wherever, and to be claiming and receiving child benefit at the British taxpayer’s expense?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the anomalies of the European system which is causing concern not just in this country, but in other capitals around Europe. I have had many conversations in the last few months with fellow Employment Ministers in other EU countries, and there is a mounting debate about the need for rule changes that will set out exactly when and where benefits should and should not be paid.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

23. What steps his Department is taking to reduce the level of youth unemployment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The issue of youth unemployment is one that the right hon. Gentleman would know, if he had listened to my earlier answer, is of great importance to this Government and the nation. We are taking urgent steps to seek to address it.

[Mr Hanson]

Despite excellent apprenticeship schemes such as the one at Airbus near my constituency, which employs about 100 apprentices a year, youth unemployment in Wales is, sadly, still higher than anywhere else in the UK as a whole. Given what the Minister said earlier about potential jobs being created, in the absence of a strong regional policy and with the scrapping of Labour’s job schemes, how can he guarantee that the jobs for young people will go to where the most young people are unemployed?

[Chris Grayling]

We need two things to solve the problem of youth unemployment. We need a strategy for growth, which was at the heart of the Budget put forward by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer a few weeks ago. We will continue to seek measures that will encourage business to grow, develop and create jobs in this country. Alongside that, we will continue to pursue measures, through work experience, the Work programme and other arrangements to support young people to make sure that they are as well equipped as possible to take advantage of those vacancies wherever in the United Kingdom they arise and wherever in the United Kingdom they live.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

T4. The mental health charity Mind has suggested changes in the work capability assessment to capture better the complexity of the conditions of those suffering from mental illness. What reassurance can the Minister give about how the process can be enhanced to reflect those needs better?

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We have already introduced mental health champions to the network of health care professionals who carry out the assessments, and we believe that the changes introduced at the beginning of April will bring more people with mental health conditions into the support group. However, we now have on our desks a new set of proposals from the charities which we asked them to supply to us. We are considering them carefully, and hope to respond in the very near future.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

One important purpose of crisis loans is to cover emergencies when claimants have no money and payment of their benefits or tax credits is delayed. Because applications are now limited to three per year, families in my constituency already face the blocking of that route to help, not because they have failed but because of failings in the system. Will Ministers look at the system again and establish whether a more flexible approach could be adopted?

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

T5. Will my right hon. Friend please update the House on the progress of the work clubs initiative?

[Chris Grayling]

Let me start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend for his work in establishing a national network of work clubs. Several hundred are now up and running around the country, some with a degree of help from Jobcentre Plus and others with none at all. I hope that this strong network of organisations will make a real difference to people looking for jobs, and that their number will continue to grow.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

I opposed changes to Remploy made by my own party in government which resulted in the closure of my local factory in Woolwich. Before the Government implement any further changes under the Sayce report that may result in more closures of Remploy factories, will the Secretary of State contact the former employees of that Woolwich factory, and write to me telling me how many found jobs and are currently employed?

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

T6. On behalf of Micklefield job club in my constituency, a strictly voluntary effort to help people back into work, and on behalf of GB Job Clubs, a charity that supports a national network of like clubs, may I ask what the Government will do to ensure that the state does not crush such voluntary provision?

[Chris Grayling]

I should like to reassure my hon. Friend that I have made sure that there are no attempts within Jobcentre Plus and the Department for Work and Pensions to track and monitor and data-manage and performance-manage. This is a grass-roots movement. Our role is to provide a degree of local encouragement, and sometimes some initial funding to clubs to get up and running, but after that it is very much up to them to shape their destiny, and up to us to champion their success, but not to interfere.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The DWP’s own research on the future jobs fund published last month demonstrated the value of Government subsidy for the employment of young people during an economic crash. Does the Minister agree with his own Department’s research, and will he therefore reconsider the possibility of a work subsidy for young people if their employment levels do not improve in the coming year?

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[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

In the light of earlier questions on the Health and Safety Executive, will there be more workplace inspections next year or fewer?

[Chris Grayling]

We have made it clear that we are seeking to reduce the number of proactive workplace inspections by about a third by removing from proactive inspection low-risk premises that have no record of problems. In that way, the HSE can concentrate its resource on dealing with those employers where there is a problem and fault has been found. Indeed, we are introducing a system of fee for fault to ensure that we recover money from those employers who are breaking the rules.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

Changing from three to six months the period before which a claimant becomes eligible for the new personal independence payment not only means that people with sudden onset conditions, such as cancer or a stroke, have to wait longer for support, but it may affect their family’s access to carer’s allowance. Will the Minister investigate ways to enable those looking after loved ones who suffer sudden onset conditions early access to carer’s allowance?

Welfare Reform Bill

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 1 to 13.

[Chris Grayling]

Mr Speaker, if you would permit me to go off the subject for a moment, I think it would be appropriate to mark, as you did just now, the recent honour received by the Clerk. I am sure that Members in all parts of the House send him our congratulations and best wishes. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

Amendments 1 to 13 and new clause 1 introduce the direct earnings attachment, or DEA, as a method of social security debt recovery. An attachment of earnings is a method by which money will be stopped from a customer’s wages to pay a debt. The debt in question could be an overpayment of benefit, any associated penalty, a recovery of hardship payments or a payment on account. The measure will also be available for use by local authorities for the recovery of housing benefit overpayments. In due course it could also be used for the recovery of council tax benefit overpayment, once the localisation of council tax benefit takes place. A DEA would also be available to recover an administrative penalty for a benefit fraud offence or a civil penalty for failing to take proper care of a benefit award.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

Is there some sort of structure in process so that if EU migrants who work in the country and are eligible for benefits move out of country when they no longer wish to work here, any overpayment of benefits could be clawed back, should those migrants move through other EU countries?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Although in theory mechanisms do exist to recover payments, the process is much more difficult than one would wish. I take her point, and my ministerial colleagues and I will continue to seek ways of ensuring that in such an eventuality, we can make recoveries.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

While the Minister considers that issue, will he also consider the case of the many hundreds of thousands of British people who live in Spain, who often rely on support, especially from the national health service and many other services that they receive, from the Spanish Government? The same applies elsewhere in Europe.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman is of course correct, but I am sure that he would also agree that if someone comes to live and work in this country, receives benefit payments and then returns overseas, they carry with them an obligation that they should fulfil. That is the sole point that my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) was making, and it is one that I think Members on both sides of the House would see as common sense. There is freedom of movement across Europe, but we must make sure that the mechanisms are in place to ensure that our systems are not abused. The primary purpose of DEA is to enforce recovery where the debtor is in pay-as-you-earn employment and will not make other arrangements for debt repayment. I think that that is a sensible approach to take.

I apologise to the Opposition for the fact that we were unable to bring the new clause forward in Committee. It has been very carefully considered and discussed in our regulatory processes. We have brought it forward at this time and hope that they will not find it controversial. One of the reasons why I hope that they will not find it controversial is that there is currently something of an anomaly in the system. If someone incurs a penalty, for whatever reason, and remains in the benefit system, we can recover that money through a deduction from the benefit payments they receive. However, if they move into PAYE employment and basically say, “No way. Go away,” we currently have no mechanism for recovering the debt that is owed. That is the purpose of the measures that we are considering.

The rates of deduction will be determined in the regulations, which will include a safeguard to ensure that deductions do not take the debtor beneath a given level of earnings. That is necessary and common practice in the operation of similar arrangements in other parts of society where deductions are made—for example, with court-related penalties and deductions for child maintenance. It is essential that we do not deduct money at a rate that will tip the person concerned below a given level of earnings. It is, and will be, a basic principle that recovery of overpaid benefits should not cause undue hardship.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

Will the Minister clarify whether any judicial process will be applied to attachments in relation to someone’s earnings? The reason I ask is because, as I am sure all hon. Members know, mistakes happen, sometimes because of errors on a claimant’s part but sometimes because of errors by the bureaucracy, and I am concerned that there may not be enough safeguards to ensure that attachments will not be made erroneously.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, and I will explain in a moment what rights individuals will have. It would of course be inappropriate to have a system in which a DEA could be applied and there was no comeback at all for the individual. A system that allowed no right of challenge or appeal would be wholly inappropriate, and I will explain in a moment why that will not be the case.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

On that point, would a debt order have any bearing on the assessable income available for child maintenance payments?

[Chris Grayling]

That would depend on the circumstances. It is obviously important that a deduction of earnings takes into account the potential impact on the individual, so we would need to take into account other payments. Ultimately, it is a basic principle that recovery of overpaid benefits should not cause undue hardship, so all circumstances would need to be taken into account. I should clarify that council tax benefit will be deducted from council tax liability, so it will not be administered in quite the same way.

Imposing a DEA is intended to be an administratively simple process that replaces the current practice of obtaining an attachment of earnings order by application to the court. The ability of the Department for Work and Pensions to make DEAs on its own authority sends out a strong signal to potential fraudsters and will prove a useful tool in the fraud and error strategy. I hope, particularly given the comments made today by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Opposition will welcome this as a sensible measure to take against people who defraud the system.

We think that the measures will also encourage claimants in debt to be more aware of the possibility of deduction at source, reducing any expectation that they will avoid repaying debt. There is always a concern that they will think that they can just pile money up and up, and that there will be no day of reckoning. The proposals make it much simpler for us to ensure that there is indeed a day of reckoning.

The measure will make use of an existing process used by the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, with which businesses are already familiar. It is a matter of routine for an employer to make a child maintenance-related deduction from a person’s salary cheque each month, and this measure will use the same process. The provision also allows for the levy of an administration charge against the debtor by the employer administering the deduction, offsetting any increased administrative costs resulting from the increased use of earnings attachment as a recovery method.

Using a DEA to recover debt does not remove a debtor’s rights to challenge any decision relating to the recovery of benefits or the imposition of a civil penalty. This relates to the point just raised by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). For example, when an overpayment occurs in relation to an award, an independent decision maker decides whether a recoverable overpayment exists. As I set out in Committee, there are circumstances in which overpayments will be recovered, and circumstances in which they will not. We will focus on offering discretion to our front-line staff in judging what is right and what is wrong. We accept that there will be times when an overpayment results from an administrative error within the Department, and that we should accept the blame for that and not seek recovery of the overpayment. The general position, however, is that if someone receives money that they should not have received, we will expect them to pay it back. If they refuse and have already started work, this mechanism will enable us to recover the money.

In addition, there will be a right of appeal to an independent appeal tribunal, should the person be unhappy with the original decision. So there is still a full judicial process available, similar to the one available when a sanction is imposed that could lead to the withdrawal of benefits. The claimant has the right first to go to the decision maker and then to a tribunal, and those rights will remain in this situation. However, we will not have to go to court to secure the original order to make a deduction of earnings.

Before taking action to impose a DEA, we will ensure that the debtor is aware that we are taking such action. We are also keen to remain mindful of our welfare obligations. We do not, for instance, want to push the debtor into leaving work in order to avoid a repayment under a DEA. This measure must be applied with common sense and care. In certain instances, it might be determined that another method of recovery should be employed, or that arrangements should be made so that the DEA commences only after other commitments have been cleared. This relates to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) raised a moment ago: we will take into account other commitments.

The DEA is designed to recover debt from those who currently seek to avoid repayment—those who hope that they can avoid paying the money back. Those who comply with requests for repayment and who either come to a reasonable arrangement to repay or can show that they are currently unable to repay will not have a DEA imposed. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that when someone refuses to meet their obligations to repay benefit debt, such powers should be available to the relevant authorities to make recovery.

That is all that the new clause and the other amendments are designed to do. They are designed to ensure that we treat people fairly and appropriately within the system. When necessary we can recover benefits directly from people who are still on benefits, but we cannot currently do that easily, without going to court, from people who have moved into PAYE employment. These provisions will allow us to change that. I believe that this is a prudent and sensible step. It is very much in keeping with our anti-fraud strategy, and I hope that it will be in keeping with that of the Opposition as well. I hope that the new clause will command support on both sides of the House.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I welcome this opportunity to respond to this first group of amendments. It is certainly one of the less contentious groups that we shall consider, and the Minister should not imagine that we will be equally amenable throughout the debate today. The new clause aims to amend the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to allow the Government to recover overpayments resulting from mistakes or fraud in out-of-work benefits and housing benefit, as well as in universal credit and the other contributory benefits.

I can well see why the Minister wants to make these changes. In particular, because universal credit will encompass people who are in work as well as those who are out of work, it makes sense for the recovery of overpayments to be extended into earnings received in work, as he has outlined.

However, a number of questions need to be asked about these plans. The Minister has already been pressed about the mechanism for appeals. The changes will certainly require a good deal of co-operation from employers, as those are the organisations on which the Government will be serving notices to deduct from earnings. Employers will bear the burden of the administration of these deductions through having to pay in amounts, keep records of those amounts, and keep the Secretary of State informed if the person concerned leaves their employment.

The Minister has made the perfectly reasonable point that a system already exists for child support payments, but in order to take into account the additional burden that he is imposing, the Government are allowing for the employer to deduct an amount in respect of their administration costs. We need to have some idea of the amount that employers will be permitted to deduct, which should be seen to be fair by the person whose pay is being deducted, while adequately compensating employers. Will the Minister tell us a little more about how that amount will be calculated, and how it relates to the existing arrangements for child support that he touched on?

The amendments allow for a level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced by the deductions. Again, that seems appropriate, but we need to know how that level of earnings will be prescribed. There could be a significant impact on work incentives, particularly for people who have received overpayments and who may well have been acting entirely innocently, having been confused or having made a mistake—or perhaps the job centre has made a mistake. If the amount is too low, claimants who are out of work could see little gain from moving into work. Additionally, if the deductions are at a flat rate or not a percentage of hourly pay, the work incentives that the universal credit taper mechanism is designed to provide will be compromised. Will the Minister tell us how the minimum level of earnings will be calculated? Will he ensure that people who are repaying overpayments will still be better off if they increase their income through working additional hours?

Subsection (3)(i) of new section 71ZCA of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 creates a criminal offence for non-compliance with the regulations, with a fine of £1,000, which would be a hefty sum for a small business. Small businesses have less time and energy to spend on administration or human resources, so the additional burdens being placed on them could prove a significant disincentive to their recruiting new employees who have overpayments hanging over them. That would result in those people finding it more difficult to get into work. Will the Minister tell us a little more about how he thinks that the new provisions will affect people who are paying back overpayments while trying to find a job? How he will ensure that the provisions do not create a new barrier to those people getting back into work?

The move towards allowing deductions from earnings to repay benefits lost due to error or fraud is sensible, particularly because universal credit will be paid to people in work as well as out of work. The Government are already introducing several penalties for those whom they feel have negligently made incorrect statements. It is important that we do not penalise people who have made mistakes but have done so honestly, by placing new and unnecessary barriers to employment in their way. The minimum level of earnings and the red tape that this will mean for small businesses could have that result if the Government get the judgments wrong. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some reassurances about how the measures will work in practice.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to make my first contribution to this stage of proceedings on the Bill by welcoming an aspect of Government amendment 2. Specifically, it is enormously welcome that the short paragraph (e) will enable regulations to include

“a level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced”

when overpayments are being recovered. That echoes the practice in Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway and other nations, which have legally enforceable, attachment-free limits when debts are being enforced, below which claimants must be protected. The limits relate to a national minimum income standard, which is set by a variety of methods. I am grateful to Professor John Veit-Wilson, Professor Elaine Kempson, Damon Gibbons of Debt on our Doorstep and Rev. Paul Nicolson of the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust, who have helped me to prepare for this debate.

I would be pleased to see the principle of irreducible attachment-free minimums extended to all debts and to the unemployed, in particular to safeguard children’s, disability and housing benefits. That would prevent the damage that is done to physical and mental health by the enforcement of debt against poverty incomes, and the damage that that does to the capacity of the poorest adults to find and keep work.

In Sweden, the standards for a reasonable standard of living are uprated for price index changes every year and reset every five years by the National Board for Consumer Affairs. The standards are based on survey data on national household consumption patterns and current prices; statisticians and NBCA policy officials decide what is reasonable in terms of deviations from the averages. For example, for the past four years in the UK, the prices of food and domestic fuel have increased faster than the retail prices index and the consumer prices index. The standards are used by the social service board for setting benefits and by the tax authority for setting the tax threshold. The tax threshold is also used by the court enforcement authority to set its attachment-free sum for debt enforcement. That sum consists of two parts: variable housing costs and a fixed standard normal sum for all other living expenses.

There are clearly other methodologies for setting the minimum acceptable income standard below which incomes should be protected and attachment-free. In Committee, we explored work that is under way in this country at the universities of York and Loughborough, among others, to develop a minimum income standard that can command and be informed by the perceptions of the public. There is a range of options for assessing and setting the minimum standard below which there will not be deductions. There are examples from other nations where such a minimum is enforceable by the courts and related to national minimum income standards. In countries that have legally enforceable limits, the courts, in setting payment plans, can ensure that the debtor is left with a minimum level of income, taking account of family size.

I hope that the small but vital paragraph (e) in Government amendment 2 will begin an era of cross-party support for legally enforceable irreducible and attachment-free minimums when people are repaying debts, which are based on minimum income standards. That would contribute to a reduction in the huge cost of mental illness to the health service and the wider economy, and make a significant contribution to the reduction of poverty in the UK. I hope that we have an ambitious approach to setting that minimum.

[Chris Grayling]

I start by saying that I very much appreciate the comments of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). I listened carefully to her points, a number of which she made in Committee. She has given a great deal of thought to these matters, and although I cannot offer her a guarantee that we will do all the things she wishes, I can say to her that we will take great care, in the regulations attached to the Bill, to ensure that we get the right balance. It has been clear for a long time in this country, and remains absolutely clear under the current Government, that in setting the levels of any deduction we have to be extremely careful not to tip people into hardship. In particular, we must not encourage them to leave work and end up moving them and their families down the poverty scale.

The hon. Lady and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) asked how we would determine the level of earnings below which deductions for overpayments cannot be made. Of course, there is no one-size-fits-all approach, and the circumstances of different families are very different. There may be a case in which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) suggested, there is a deduction for child support, or the number of children in a family or a disability may be factors. Great care therefore has to be exercised.

The minimum level that we will pursue will be determined to ensure that the debtor is left with sufficient income to maintain themselves and their family, in line with similar provisions in the Attachment of Earnings Act 1971. We therefore plan to use the same basis that the previous Government used—for example, to determine deductions from benefit payments.

In many cases, however, a direct earnings attachment will be implemented with little negotiation with the debtor. There will be a prescribed minimum level that will not take account of individual circumstances. We will try to create a system whereby we are mindful of the need to reflect the circumstances of the individual, but we cannot go the whole way, and we certainly cannot go quite as far as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston would wish.

If a debtor finds that they are unable to cope with the deductions being made from their earnings, they should contact us to discuss an alternative payment rate. Of course, they can avoid being placed in that situation, bearing in mind that we are discussing not people who are struggling to deal with something that they have already agreed but those who have wilfully refused to enter an agreement with us and are basically saying, “I’m not paying the money back”, or who have not even got to the point of saying anything to us at all.

Debtors who are repaying their overpayment by means of a direct earnings attachment will, in line with those repaying by other methods, be able to claim that the repayment rate causes them hardship and ask for it to be reduced. Although we of course have a responsibility to recover overpayments in order to protect public funds, we also take into account an individual’s financial and personal circumstances. The hon. Lady articulated a strong case for her points, but I cannot offer her quite as much as she would wish. However, I can offer her an assurance that we will always take an individual’s circumstances into account, particular where poverty, deprivation and hardship could arise.

The right hon. Member for East Ham made a point about employers. We will, of course, use the same mechanism for the attachment orders in the Bill as is used for child maintenance deductions. That process is well established through the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission system, and prior to that through the Child Support Agency, so it should not cause employers to recast their processes and do things very differently. On that basis, I am confident that it should not represent a significant additional burden on employers.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the provision for a £1,000 fine. In truth, there is no excuse for a refusal to engage in any part of the process. The orders will arise only because an individual claimant has refused to engage, and there is no real excuse for an employer to refuse to engage either. The matter should not be complicated, and it certainly should not be complex enough to cause an employer to decline an expansion in business or a recruitment to fill a vacancy. The process is established and many employers up and down the country are used to dealing with it, and I do not believe there will be significant extra burden on business.

The right hon. Gentleman asked how much employers could deduct for the administration charge, and the answer is an amount not in excess of £1 for each deduction. He asked for an assurance that the measure will not damage work incentives. The answer to that is that, as with all debt recovery, we must of course be mindful of the Department’s welfare obligations. As I said, recovery of overpaid benefits should not cause undue hardship. In the calculation of a repayment, we certainly would not want to push someone into a position in which they have to leave work to avoid payment under a DEA.

The operation of the DEA does not mean that the debtor will commence the repayment of their debt earlier than they would under another repayment method. The debtor will have had ample opportunity to make other arrangements to pay, or indeed to show that suspension of recovery was applicable in their case. We are not talking about people who have had no chance to engage and discuss.

[Stephen Timms]

Will people who receive pay rises always receive some benefit from it, or could they lose all of that increase in additional repayments required by the Department?

[Chris Grayling]

It is very difficult to give an absolute answer to that question. It is unlikely that we would seek to withdraw an entire pay rise, but clearly, if we had given somebody a lot of slack in making their repayments, and their financial circumstances improved, we would not allow them simply to continue paying at the hardship rate that they had previously paid. We would expect an improvement in the terms based on their improved circumstances.

The right hon. Gentleman, as a former Minister, knows the reality. Well-established hardship considerations are in place. If the customer engages with the Department, their circumstances could suggest that another method of recovery should be employed. Arrangements are made so that the DEA begins only after a period time, but only in exceptional circumstances would we waiver repayment.

Common sense lies at the heart of this measure. It is our job to recover funds that have been overpaid to a claimant when there is not a good reason for waiving the repayment because of departmental error. At the same time, it is not in any of our interests for the system to force people into severe hardship and poverty—the system should reflect the reality of people’s financial situations.

There is a clear obligation to repay. The Leader of the Opposition spoke this morning of responsibility, and he was right to do so. Those who we are talking about have a responsibility to repay the money that is due to us. However, the Department, and indeed the courts, must apply common sense to the process, achieve the right balance and ensure that we recover the money that is due to the taxpayer correctly and sensibly.

I welcome the Opposition spokesman’s positive comments. We are likely to have livelier debates as the hours go by, although I hope, having heard the Leader of the Opposition’s comments this morning, that such debate masks their willingness to support the Bill. It would be disappointing if the Opposition did not support the Bill. If they decline to support it, I will look forward to having a debate in public on who is right and who is wrong, but for now I am delighted that there is cross-party co-operation on this group of amendments and the new clause.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 102

Recovery of benefit payments

Amendments made: 1, page 67, line 35, at end insert—

‘() by deduction from earnings (section 71ZCA);’

Amendment 2, page 68, line 17, at end insert—

71ZCA Deduction from earnings

(1) Regulations may provide for amounts recoverable under section 71ZB to be recovered by deductions from earnings.

(2) In this section “earnings” has such meaning as may be prescribed.

(3) Regulations under subsection (1) may include provision—

(a) requiring the person from whom an amount is recoverable (“the beneficiary”) to disclose details of their employer, and any change of employer, to the Secretary of State;

(b) requiring the employer, on being served with a notice by the Secretary of State, to make deductions from the earnings of the beneficiary and to pay corresponding amounts to the Secretary of State;

(c) as to the matters to be contained in such a notice and the period for which a notice is to have effect;

(d) as to how payment is to be made to the Secretary of State;

(e) as to a level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced;

(f) allowing the employer, where the employer makes deductions, to deduct a prescribed sum from the beneficiary’s earnings in respect of the employer’s administrative costs;

(g) requiring the employer to keep records of deductions;

(h) requiring the employer to notify the Secretary of State if the beneficiary is not, or ceases to be, employed by the employer;

(i) creating a criminal offence for non-compliance with the regulations, punishable on summary conviction by a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale;

(j) with respect to the priority as between a requirement to deduct from earnings under this section and—

(i) any other such requirement;

(ii) an order under any other enactment relating to England and Wales which requires deduction from the beneficiary’s earnings;

(iii) any diligence against earnings.’

Amendment 3, page 69, line 22 , after ‘71ZC’ insert ‘, 71ZCA’

Amendment 4, page 70, line 13 , leave out from ‘etc)’ to end of line 15 and insert—

‘(a) for subsection (4) there is substituted—

(4) If the recipient of a notice under subsection (3) above agrees, in the specified manner, to pay the penalty—

(a) the amount of the penalty shall be recoverable from the recipient by the Secretary of State or authority; and

(b) no criminal proceedings shall be instituted against the recipient in respect of the conduct to which the notice relates.

(4A) Sections 71ZC, 71ZCA and 71ZD above apply in relation to amounts recoverable under subsection (4)(a) above as to amounts recoverable by the Secretary of State under section 71ZB above (and, where the notice is given by an authority administering housing benefit or council tax benefit, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority).’

(b) in subsection (9), the definition of “relevant benefit” is repealed.’—(Chris Grayling.)

Clause 112

Civil penalties for incorrect statements and failures to disclose information

Amendments made: 5, page 75, line 29, after ‘71ZC’ insert ‘, 71ZCA’

Amendment 6, page 75, line 31, at end insert—

‘(and, where the appropriate authority is not the Secretary of State, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority)’

Amendment 7, page 76, line 24, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate authority’

Amendment 8, page 76, line 26, leave out from ‘71ZC’ to end of line 27 and insert—

‘71ZCA and 71ZD apply in relation to amounts recoverable by the appropriate authority under subsection (4) as to amounts recoverable by the Secretary of State under section 71ZB (and, where the appropriate authority is not the Secretary of State, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority).’—(Chris Grayling.)

Schedule 14

Repeals

Amendments made: 9, page 155, line 37, at end insert—

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right about the centrality of free school meals entitlement in the system. The Government have simply failed to work out who, under their proposals, will be entitled to free school meals. It is not that I am disagreeing with the Government’s policy: the problem is that they have no policy. We have no idea whom they believe should be entitled to free school meals. As far as we can tell, they have not got a clue, either.

As my hon. Friend points out, free school meals are an important part of the system. They can be worth more than £350 a year to a family with one child in a primary school and easily more than £1,000 a year to a family with three or more children at school. Clearly, that makes an enormous difference.

Families currently receive free school meals until they work for more than 16 hours, at which point they receive working tax credit so that they are not worse off as they move into additional hours of work. The universal credit White Paper suggested that the Government intend to remove entitlement to free school meals at a fixed income threshold. That may partially answer my hon. Friend’s question. However, if they do that, it creates precisely the sort of cliff edge that we were told the Bill would eradicate. I presume that that difficulty has prevented the Government from setting out their policy and is the reason for the Bill’s silence on the matter and the absence of notes on the regulations to explain the Government’s policy.

If a lone parent with three children lost entitlement to free school meals at some level of earnings—say, £150 a week or more—their net household income would fall unless they earned more than £4,000 extra a year. If the new system works like that, it will be a disaster. It is exactly the sort of disincentive that we have been told all along that universal credit is supposed to remove. If the Government introduced such a policy, universal credit would make the problem of work disincentives far worse than it is in the current system.

Our proposal in new clause 3 is that the value of free school meals should be paid through universal credit and then tapered away gradually as household income rises. I recognise that there is concern among many who follow these matters closely that that could mean that the cash is not used for school meals but other expenses. Given the pressure on household budgets, one can well understand how that might happen. I therefore suggest that the solution is for the cash to be paid on to an electronic card, which could be used only to purchase school meals. An arbitrary cut-off in income, whereby all support for free school meals was withdrawn, would be damaging.

[Chris Grayling]

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that his proposal flies in face of the admirable position at the moment whereby, in the lunchtime school queue, there is no obvious and visible difference between those who receive free school meals and those who do not? A provision that would effectively give some, but not others, a particular card with money on it would surely stigmatise those kids who get free school meals.

[Stephen Timms]

No, the Minister is mistaken. All pupils in the school would pay for their meals with the card. The difference would be how the money got on to the card. Some would pay cash as currently happens and others would have the money placed on the card through universal credit. The Minister is right to raise the matter, which is important, but my solution would solve the problem.

[Chris Grayling]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

I gladly give way to the Minister again. Perhaps he will tell us how the Government propose that entitlement to free school meals will be determined.

[Chris Grayling]

If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will try to catch Mr Speaker’s eye in a moment to answer questions, but for now, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can answer one for me. As different schools today use different systems—some use fingerprinting, some use an electronic card system and some still use cash—does he envisage his proposal requiring schools up and down the country to scrap their current systems and have a new, harmonised system? If so, has he calculated what the cost of that system would be and how long it would take to introduce?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. For that very reason, the risks are great indeed. When I come on to speak to amendment 24 in a few moments, I will point out that if people go beyond a prescribed level of savings, they will lose all that help under all those headings.

[Chris Grayling]

Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up one point of confusion for me and, I suspect, for my hon. Friends? Over the past two or three months, he has said that he supports the universal credit in principle. However, his remarks and those of his hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) imply some distancing from the proposal. Does he intend to support the Bill on Third Reading or not?

[Stephen Timms]

The right hon. Gentleman will find out the answer to that question in due course. We have been consistent in supporting the principle of universal credit. We think that bringing in-work and out-of-work benefits together is a good idea that has a number of attractions. The problem is that the detailed work to make that policy fly has simply not been done by the Minister and his hon. Friends. There are desperate, gaping gaps in the policy and fundamental questions that he is unable to answer or explain about how the arrangements will work. As a result, the Bill, on departing this House, will leave many households, and many working families in particular, in a very precarious position.

Having talked about a lot of things that we do not know about, let me now deal with some things that we do know about. Clause 5, which I touched on a moment ago, will badly undermine the aspirations of people who are in work on modest incomes. Under the current rules—they have been a long-standing feature of the system—people who are out of work but who have above a prescribed capital sum are expected to use it to support themselves before claiming income-related, out-of-work benefits. If somebody has more than £6,000 in savings, the Government assume an income from them, which is then subtracted from the benefit entitlements; someone with more than £16,000 in savings will not receive means-tested, out-of-work benefits at all. Those two figures were increased from £3,000 and £8,000 by the last Government to help people retain some of their savings when they lost work. For people in work, the story has been very different. There is no savings cap at all on tax credits. Clause 5 will change that fundamentally by extending the rules on savings for those who are out of work to people who are in work.

The Conservative party used to tell us that it wanted to encourage people to save. Clause 5 will not just discourage people from saving; it will make it impossible for them to save. Anyone on a modest income who decides to save for a deposit to buy a house in the future, or for the cost of university education, will suffer an extraordinary punishment under the clause. It is impossible to buy a house today, or to obtain a mortgage for shared ownership, with a deposit of less than £16,000. However, if people have savings of £16,000 towards, say, the deposit for a mortgage—if, as Ministers seem to believe, they start to get ideas above their station—they will lose all their universal credit. Typically, that might be £5,000 a year. In addition, they will lose any support that they receive for the costs of child care, and on top of that they will lose any help that they are given with housing costs.

Those measures will add up to an extraordinary punishment for saving. They will make saving literally impossible, because as soon as people have managed to save £16,000 from their earnings, the Government will drain their savings away. The problem will start as soon as they have saved £6,000. The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales)—who, I am pleased to see, is present—said in Committee that the problem would not last very long because people’s savings would soon be gone, and he was absolutely right. These proposals mean that if anyone attempts to start building up a saving that would be enough for, say, a deposit on a house or a contribution towards higher education costs, the Government will take it away by withdrawing their universal credit. The message being sent to people on low incomes who are doing the right thing and working to support themselves could not be clearer: “This Government will not support you.”

Amendments 23 and 24 would change that. They would allow people to save money in an individual savings account—up to £50,000 if they are in work. Ministers have told us that it would cost just £70 million a year to exclude all working households from the savings cap, and this measure is obviously more modest than that.

Surely we should be encouraging people to save, not punishing them for saving. People work to improve their lives and the lives of their families. They are aiming not for a bit more spending money each month, but for the means to buy a house, to help their children through university, to start a business or to pay for a child’s wedding. If they are to achieve such aspirations, people need to be able to save from their earnings, but clause 5 denies them the chance to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that we debated this matter extensively in Committee, so it is not quite the bolt from the blue that he suggests. Is it his party’s policy that people under retirement age who happen to have a partner who is over retirement age should, through that partner, be able to access means-tested support from the state without any obligation to look for work themselves?

[Stephen Timms]

In government, we set out the arrangements for pension credit as they stand. In our view, those arrangements made sense. If the Government want to make a case for changing those arrangements, I simply suggest that they need to announce that change and to stand up openly and say that they have decided that in future people cannot have pension credit if their spouse is under pensionable age. We could then have a debate. I would have thought that such a measure ought to be in the Pensions Bill. The Minister is right that we were able to spot the change in Committee and to discuss it then, but this is certainly not an example of the Government’s being open—far from it. They seem to have hoped that they could slip this measure through and nobody would notice.

For those couples for whom there is a substantial age gap—in 40% of those cases, the partner will be younger than 55, so the gap will be more than five years—this measure could represent an enormous cumulative loss of £5,000 a year for five years or more.

[Chris Grayling]

May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the key question? We are talking about people of working age whose households would be in receipt of means-tested benefits from the state without being obliged to look for work. Is it his policy that those people should not have an obligation to look for work and that their households should be able to continue to receive means-tested benefits from the state?

[Stephen Timms]

As far as I can see, the arrangements for pension credit have worked perfectly well up to now, presumably with the feature that the Minister is now deprecating. My case is that if the Government want to change the rules for pension credit to discriminate against people who have a spouse under pensionable age, they should do so openly. They should announce the change: it should have been in the Budget, the welfare reform announcement or the Pensions Bill. We have a Pensions Bill going through Parliament at the moment—why was it not included there? Instead, the change was slipped into a schedule to this Bill and no Minister, until asked, said anything about it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

No, it is not. Any income to the household from a working spouse will be counted in the household income for pension credit purposes. My argument is that if there is a case to be made for a change to pension credit, it should be made openly, and it should have been in the Pensions Bill, which Parliament is currently considering.

[Chris Grayling]

Forgive me for probing. The right hon. Gentleman has rightly set out his case as an amendment, but I wish to press him on the following point. If a household is receiving elements of pension credit that gives them the wherewithal to survive, is he saying that a 45-year-old should have no obligation to work while the household receives means-tested benefits from the state? It would be helpful to understand that. If that is his party’s policy, will he say so clearly and unequivocally?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

I look forward to reminding the hon. Gentleman of that comment in September 2013.

The intention of universal credit is that work should always pay. Without decisions and policies on child care or passported benefits, we cannot know whether work will always pay, and all the indications are that the Government will in due course, when they finally put a policy together, introduce one that will mean that for many work will no longer pay.

On savings, I am afraid that the Government are heading to crush the hopes of many people in work. On the self-employed, the Government will crush the hopes of many who want to set up their own businesses. As Policy Exchange recently argued in its report, universal credit has been oversold by Ministers. I very much hope that the House will support our amendments so that universal credit can support the aspirations of families across the country.

[Chris Grayling]

I should like to start by making the same point that I made in Committee. I have listened to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) setting out a vast range of measures and details that he wants us to write into the Bill. He is conveniently forgetting the first fundamental element of a Bill, and the lesson that he taught me 10 years ago, when I was first elected to the House, about the nature of primary legislation. I remember, as a new Member of Parliament, debating an education Bill in Committee and asking why there was not more detail in the Bill. I proposed amendments to provide certain details. I remember the right hon. Gentleman, as a Minister, arguing why that should not happen. He explained that it was a piece of enabling legislation to create a framework for the changes that his Government were seeking to put in place, and that my amendments were all unnecessary. Today the roles are reversed, and the right hon. Gentleman has conveniently forgotten everything that he, as a Minister, taught me all those years ago. Instead, he is telling me that I should put all kinds of new details into the Bill that I have introduced. I am sure that hon. Members will therefore forgive me if I take some of his proposals with a pinch of salt.

[Stephen Timms]

Is the Minister seriously saying that how the cost of child care will be supported is a detail?

[Chris Grayling]

I am saying to him precisely what he said to me all those years ago—that many of the details will be dealt with in secondary legislation. The Bill contains a framework that will include, among other things, provision for a child care element in universal credit. That is fundamental, and we all agree that there should be such an element, just as there should be elements relating to disability and to other aspects of the current benefits system that need to be replicated in universal credit.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Why does the Minister expect us—and, indeed, the general public—to accept his statements about the impact of this huge reform when so much of the detail in unknown? Is it not reasonable for us to request the details that will tell us whether people are in fact going to be better off?

[Chris Grayling]

I expect it for precisely the same reason that the right hon. Member for East Ham expected me to support his education measures 10 years ago. He asked me to take on trust many of the same kinds of thing that I am asking the House to accept today. We have been completely transparent in setting out the different stages of the formulation of universal credit, and about the consultation processes that we have been through to fill in the details. We have also been clear and transparent in setting out the principles that we are following in trying to fill in those details.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I went along to one of the meetings about the Government’s proposals for child care to which the Secretary of State was kind enough to invite people. We were presented with three options containing some very selective figures, and it was therefore impossible to tell exactly what the Government were proposing. I am still none the wiser. It is very difficult to vote on a principle when we do not know what the Government are going to do to implement it.

[Chris Grayling]

The point is that we do not write numbers on the face of a Bill. I will speak in detail about the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments in a moment, but the fact is that primary legislation sets out the framework for such things. We have worked with the hon. Lady and her Select Committee members, with other Members on both sides of the House and with people and representative groups outside the House working in child care and other areas. We started a discussion process to determine which was the best of a number of options to fit into the framework that we are creating.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The Minister is right that often things are not written into a Bill, but usually the regulations have been published before the Bill leaves the House of Commons. I remember Members who are now on the Government Benches criticising regulations for being late—not for not having been published, but merely for being late. Where are the regulations so that there can be parliamentary scrutiny of this important aspect of the Bill?

[Chris Grayling]

I have had this discussion within the Department. We have already brought forward a number of draft regulations—far more, I am told, than was the case under the previous Government, when, I was told, the instruction of Ministers was very much not to bring forward as many regulations. We have produced as much detail, if not more, about this measure than the previous Government did about their measures. They did introduce some sensible measures—for example, their reforms to introduce employment and support allowance, which was the project of the right hon. Member for East Ham himself—but they wrote a framework into their legislation and filled in the detail with secondary legislation.

[Dr Whiteford]

One of the concerns raised by children’s organisations in Scotland is that not enough consideration has been given to the different statutory framework that pertains to child care in different parts of the UK. In particular, they are concerned that the existing child care infrastructure may not be able to cope with the increased demand that could arise from the introduction of universal credit. I appreciate that the Minister does not want to be drawn on the detail, but can he assure us that parents who are unable to access good-quality affordable child care will not face sanctions if, through no fault of their own, they are unable to find the child care that they need?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, we already provide child care universally through our schools system. The truth is that no parent with a youngest child under school age can be subject to any job search-related sanctions. Only once their youngest child reaches school age are they subject to a work-search requirement and can face sanctions. Under the rules that are pursued at the moment, and under the provisions that we have clearly said will exist within universal credit, we will expect lone parents of children at primary school to do a part-time job only if that fits in with the hours of that school.

[Dr Whiteford]

I am slightly surprised to hear the Minister describing school as a glorified babysitting service. The real pressure point pertains to older children, and particularly to out-of-school care. That is not covered across the UK by the Childcare Act 2006, which applies only to England and Wales. I urge him to take a closer look at that and to give the House the assurance that parents will not be penalised.

[Chris Grayling]

The point is that we do not penalise parents, particularly lone parents. We do not require them to pursue work; that is out of keeping with the reality of their child care responsibilities. I am not describing school as a giant babysitting service; I am saying that for a goodly part of the year children of school age are at school, and therefore do not need additional child care. The requirements placed on parents by Jobcentre Plus in relation to their job search and whether they take up employment are designed to work around what it is reasonable and what it is not reasonable for them to do. For example, we do not expect lone parents of school-age kids to work night shifts. I can certainly assure the hon. Lady that it is not our intention, nor will it be, to seek to sanction parents in relation to a job requirement that is unreasonable and unrealistic given their child care responsibilities.

[Dame Anne Begg]

On a matter of principle, does the Minister believe that the regulations should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the same way as primary legislation?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course.

As the right hon. Member for East Ham will know, I have tabled several Government amendments to address the concerns that he and other Members raised in Committee. I will deal with those before I talk in detail about his amendments.

Government amendments 14 to 21 will make certain regulation-making provisions for universal credit, employment and support allowance, jobseeker’s allowance and pension credit subject to the affirmative resolution procedure when they are first used. I recognise the hon. Lady’s point, and it is a point that was made well by the right hon. Member for East Ham in Committee. I do not think that it would be sensible to make the provisions subject to the affirmative procedure year in, year out, but it is right and proper that the House should be able to debate them fully when they are first introduced.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the Minister for his important announcement on the use of the affirmative procedure the first time the regulations go through. The process that the Government have taken of consulting informally and sharing the consultation document so transparently, so that we could all sit down and discuss the options for child care, is a great and important step forward. I would have thought that the Work and Pensions Committee would have stirred itself to take a proper look at the document before the regulations come in, and make constructive comments to add to the process of reforming our benefits system.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Some of my colleagues and I have been in the House for longer than he has—and when the Labour party was in government, I do not recall once being called in to discuss the policy-making process for one part of a piece of primary legislation. I was not asked to go in and discuss education or health options; the decisions were always just made. What is different is that we have extended the hand of involvement to the Opposition and said, “Please come and be part of the decision-making process.”

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

As another new Member, I ask my right hon. Friend to cast his mind back and consider whether the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), when he was a Minister, ever consulted quite so extensively as this Government have with third sector organisations, charitable organisations and other organisations to inform their work in developing the benefits system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I cannot remember the previous Government doing more than we have to engage people in Westminster, people around Parliament, third sector groups and members of the public. We are making a genuine attempt in a number of complex areas to get things right and to involve everyone in the decision-making process, and that will continue. Notwithstanding this afternoon’s amendments, we will continue to be delighted to seek and involve the input of Opposition parties, including the Labour party and the nationalist parties. As the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) said, it is right and proper that we have full dialogue with the Administrations in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and with the Members of Parliament who represent Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

[Stephen Timms]

It is certainly the case that the previous Government never got to this stage in a Bill’s passage with such an enormous hole in the policy as there is in this Bill.

[Chris Grayling]

The technical response to that is, “You wish!” I remember many occasions on which we came to a debate and asked what the Labour Government were planning to do. Did we ever get an answer? Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman and I have different memories of the way things were.

It is important to remember that this Bill creates a structure for universal credit, and that the details will be set out in regulations. The Opposition amendments relate mainly to issues that will be dealt with in regulations, and which do not affect the structure of universal credit as set out in the Bill.

I have accepted certain recommendations from the Opposition. The Bill as introduced provided that the regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. In Committee it was suggested that that would not provide the right level of parliamentary scrutiny and control. The right hon. Member for East Ham identified a number of provisions that he thought should be subject to the affirmative procedure, and I gave a commitment in Committee on 28 April to consider those provisions carefully.

There are two provisions, in clauses 22 and 25, relating to conditionality, for which we do not think the affirmative procedure is appropriate, because they do not introduce new principles. Although we intend that regulations will be much less prescriptive than the current jobseeker’s allowance regulations, the powers in the Bill will be used to create a regime for jobseekers that is broadly similar to the current one. We have therefore formed the view that there is no necessity to subject those two to the affirmative resolution procedure. Of course, it always remains within the gift of Opposition Members to pray against regulations if they want a matter to be debated. They could, of course, do so anyway, but we are making their life a bit easier by providing for the affirmative procedure.

I have thought long and hard, and apart from those two specific provisions I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that regulations should be made under the affirmative procedure in the first instance. I say “in the first instance” because it does not seem sensible to repeat the process year in, year out when the regulations are regularly renewed.

As set out in amendment 14, that principle covers all the key regulation-making powers relating to the universal credit, including the rules on capital, the calculation of income, the treatment of self-employed people’s cases, and the amounts of the elements within an award, including those for disabled children, housing and child care. Opposition Members might say that that is not enough to allay the concerns that they have raised on specific issues, and I shall deal with some of those specific concerns in a moment. However, I made it clear in Committee that we recognised the importance of getting the details of universal credit right. We are working hard to do so in consultation with key stakeholders, and we are listening to their concerns.

The Opposition amendments would pre-empt our considerations and tie the hands of this and any future Government with regard to areas of policy in which it is important to retain flexibility. I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to say that as we reach a final conclusion on what is right, involving Members of all parties, the Work and Pensions Committee, organisations such as the Social Security Advisory Committee, and third-party groups, we will bring regulations to the House by the affirmative procedure. There can then be a full and proper debate in Committee and a vote on Floor of the House.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Clearly the Minister has moved on this issue, but there is still the problem that the affirmative procedure is “take it or leave it”. The Work and Pensions Committee and other Members have no ability to amend regulations, so it is not the same as the line-by-line scrutiny that primary legislation receives.

[Chris Grayling]

I accept that, but that is precisely why we have extended the hand of involvement to the hon. Lady and her Committee and to Opposition Members, so that they can help us shape the details. This is a big complex project and there are challenging issues to deal with, and we want to work on a bipartisan basis and take views from all parties on how best to shape the system. In the end we will have to take a final decision ourselves, but it is our goal and intention to involve all those who wish to be involved in the thought process.

That brings me on to child care, on which we have been seeking to do precisely that. New clause 2 raises important points about how we intend to support people with formal child care costs within universal credit. Hon. Members will be aware that we recently held two seminars on the topic. Members of both Houses attended, and there were interesting and fruitful discussions. There was a follow-up seminar with a group of key stakeholders. I am aware that Members raised particular queries, and we have undertaken to look into them and provide more information. The seminars were part of an ongoing dialogue about how best to structure child care support under universal credit.

For now, I reiterate the point that I made in Committee. The Bill already allows us to include an additional element for child care within universal credit, under clause 12. We have made a firm commitment to provide such an element, but I make no apology for taking time over the details. We must get them right, and to do so we must listen to those with experience and expertise and consider the options.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware of how important the child care tax credit has been in supporting families’ child care. Will he undertake that people will not be worse off in terms of their child care costs, or is the change really just about saving money?

[Chris Grayling]

As the hon. Lady would have known if she had listened to the debate in Committee, we are putting in place transitional protection for the introduction of universal credit, so that no one will lose out in cash terms as a result of the changes. That is right and appropriate. The problem with new clause 2 is, first, the cost, which the right hon. Member for East Ham did not mention.

Had we introduced new clause 2 with the current 16-hour rule, the cost would be around £200 million to £400 million, which would be additional to current expenditure of around £2 billion. The Opposition have therefore made a clear spending commitment, which appears to be a reversal of their policy—I was under the impression that the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor had said, “No spending commitments without official sanction.” Perhaps this spending commitment has official sanction, but, if so, they need to say where the money is coming from.

Two or three Opposition proposals that we will debate today require extra spending. It is incumbent on a party that has just presided over the building of the biggest deficit in our peacetime history to say where the money is coming from if it proposes spending commitments that would take away some of the money that we are trying to reinvest to deal with the deficit. Do Labour Members want to borrow more money? If so, that £200 million to £400 million means extra public borrowing. Alternatively, will they increase taxes? They need to explain where the money is coming from.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Does the Minister understand that many women are frightened by the Bill’s proposals and nervous about their futures—about whether they can continue working and supporting their families? Women who are looking to move into work are not worried about artificial arguments on whether the Labour party has a new spending commitment. They want to know whether the Bill will give them the opportunity to move into work when they are capable of doing so, and whether the Government will give them child care support. In many cases, child care is the only thing stopping them making that step.

[Chris Grayling]

Women and men in this country have realised that the previous Government’s belief that money grows on trees is wrong. They have also realised that the consequence of the previous Government’s policies—they simply threw money at every problem—is that we are faced with the most monumental deficit challenge. If we do not deal with that, we will end up in the same position as a number of other countries. I would not want us to be in that place, because women’s chances of getting back into work would be much diminished by the state of such an economy.

[Mrs Moon]

I appreciate that there is concern about the deficit, but will the Minister assure us that women who are unable to work because the cost of their child care will remove all the benefit of them doing so will not find themselves harassed or pressured by the Department for Work and Pensions to take work that will leave them out of pocket? Will that be taken into account when their capacity to work is reviewed?

[Chris Grayling]

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was in the Chamber a moment ago when I answered question on child care from the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), but the former seems to be forgetting the fact that there is no job search obligation for the lone parent of a child who is below school age. A job search requirement is made only when a child is at school, and the requirement is for a willingness to accept a reasonable job offer that fits around school hours. No draconian measure is waiting to hit a lone parent as their child grows older. Our system is pretty supportive, and we have been absolutely clear that child care costs will continue to be paid through universal credit.

The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) must also understand that our nation’s resources are finite. We cannot just turn on the financial taps because we feel like it. We must take pragmatic decisions on what the nation can and cannot afford. We set out very clearly in our announcement last year that there is a £2 billion envelope to fund child care. Parliamentarians now need to agree how best to spend that money.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

As the Minister knows, I have supported the universal credit system for some while, but each of the proposed amendments address vulnerable people—people on free school meals, people living in near poverty or poverty, children with disabilities, and people who are sick and who incur health costs. Those real anxieties about the introduction of the new system need to be assuaged. When the Minister responds on those issues, could he at least give us some sort of time scale on which they will be addressed, so that those people can have more certainty in the run-up to the introduction of the new system?

[Chris Grayling]

The answer is that we will do it as quickly as we possibly can. We are not in the business of delaying these things. We are doing the consultation on child care now, and I hope that we will reach a resolution in a relatively short space of time. However, I want to take the time to get it right. I do not want to rush through under an artificial timetable something that is not necessary right now. We are still two and a half years away from the introduction of new claims for universal credit. We have got time to get these things right and we are trying to work with a fixed envelope of money for child care—we will talk about some of the other issues shortly. We want to take the time to look at the real costs of child care, the requirements and how we can best deploy the £2 billion available.

[John McDonnell]

I am not trying to catch the Minister out—I am trying to secure clarity on each of these issues. What is an indicative time scale for addressing those anxieties, so that people can have some prospect of being able to calculate their futures in those areas?

[Chris Grayling]

I will endeavour to answer that. On the child care issue, we are in consultation at the moment. I would hope that we will get all the responses that we are going to get by the summer and be able to take decisions quickly after that. That would be my first answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question.

[Mrs Main]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is unhelpful for the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) to talk about the Department for Work and Pensions “harassing” women who are considering going back to work? All these measures are an attempt to be mindful of the public purse and to encourage people to go back to work and do the best they can for their families—because being in work is good for their families.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The whole purpose of universal credit is to provide assistance to people who are trying to get back to work and to ensure that work always pays. I hope that the women of Bridgend will benefit, like those across the country, from the introduction of universal credit and the extra support that it will provide to ensure that they are better off in work.

[Kate Green]

I noted the Minister’s reminder a few moments ago that transitional protection would also be available in respect of child care costs. Can he confirm that one change in circumstances that can be predicted is that child care costs will vary between term time and school holidays and that that will not trigger a change in circumstances that would lead to the cancellation of transitional protection?

[Chris Grayling]

It is not our intention that routine or minor changes in circumstances would lead to the loss of transitional protection. The requirement for child care clearly fluctuates during the course of the year, but follows a set pattern. It is not our intention for a moment to remove transitional protection in that situation, nor is it our intention to remove it in an environment in which there is an annual increase—RPI or CPI—in the rate of child care. We are looking at material changes in circumstances, and I certainly would not envisage the change from term time to holidays as a material change.

The other issue that I have with the Opposition’s proposals is that they would remove the ability for people to take up mini jobs. For women re-entering the workplace after a lengthy time out of it, there is a bigger barrier than needs to be the case. One of the strengths of the universal credit system is the flexibility for people to take on mini jobs. The level of prescription set out in the Opposition’s proposals would set up unnecessary and inappropriate barriers to getting people back to work.

[Sheila Gilmore]

In Committee, we heard a great deal about these mini jobs. We have just heard the Minister say that we should not be worried about the effect on parents of children of school age because a job could be encompassed within school hours. Why is it so necessary to take money away from people who are trying to improve their families’ prospects of getting out of poverty in order to help people in mini jobs—although I do not fully understand the concept—because surely those would be covered by school hours even more?

[Chris Grayling]

The changes we made last year—the reduction from 80% to 70% support—merely returned us to the situation that applied before 2006. On the mini jobs, I want us to spend the money we have on supporting people from deprived backgrounds and in the most deprived situations into the work place so that they can make the most of their lives. The mini job is a perfectly reasonable way of doing that. I also happen to think that for many lone parents, a mini job during schools hours is a perfectly reasonable alternative that might mean that the need for child care is not great. None the less, the option should be there. We should not be writing—this is the key point about some of the Opposition amendments—into primary legislation rules that cannot be undone for two or three years, while we wait for a parliamentary slot. Instead, we need to set out straightforwardly a situation in regulations that can be amended if the situation requires. I could not possibly accept an amendment from the right hon. Member for East Ham that would write into primary legislation actual amounts of benefits that should be paid. The Labour party would never have done that while in government. It would not have happened, and I am not going to tolerate the idea now.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The detailed and comprehensive information that the Minister and the Department for Work and Pensions shared with members of the Bill Committee and the Work and Pensions Committee sets out clearly that joint working is the norm for couples in this country. In most families, mine included, with young children, both spouses or partners work. I, for one, resent the idea among some older people that mothers just sit at home and have primary responsibility for child care. Society has changed, and it is time people moved on from being old-fashioned and out-of-date and accepted that the reality of modern Britain is that both parents play a key role in bringing up children.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes his point in his usual forceful and inimitable way. He highlighted how Labour Members struggle to move on from traditional ways of things. Listening to the right hon. Member for East Ham, I am still not sure on which side of the argument he falls. Does he think that we are doing the right thing, but want to fine-tune it a bit, or is he trying to distance himself from the Bill, so that on Wednesday the Opposition can vote against it and so say to the pressure and lobby groups, “We are on your side”? I am genuinely not sure which is the case, although if they do vote against it, I will love it. I will look forward to arguing up and down the land that this Government have got it right on welfare reform, and that the Opposition have not. I wait with interest and enthusiasm to discover how they vote.

New clauses 3 and 4 provide an amount for school meals and health costs in universal credit. It is absolutely our objective to ensure that people on universal credit will continue to receive appropriate support for school meals and health costs, and that this support is withdrawn gradually to avoid damaging the incentives to work. However, entitlements to passported benefits are the responsibility of other Departments and devolved Administrations. We have been working closely with those responsible to consider the options, and we have commissioned the Social Security Advisory Committee to review passported benefits and how they interact with universal credit. The review was announced in a written statement on 23 May, and a copy of its terms of reference has been placed in the Library. To answer a question put to me earlier, I should say that the Committee will produce its interim report in September and a final report by January. The Committee provides a good way of considering this challenging and important cross-governmental issue. We are certainly well aware of the potential for a large cliff-edge reduction in a person’s income, if support for school meals is withdrawn completely when they reach a certain level of earnings, and we are working closely with other Departments on the matter, as well as on the review.

On health, we aim to ensure that passported benefits are awarded to broadly the same number of people as now. However, passporting is not the only source of help with health costs. Income-related help is also available through the NHS low-income scheme, which can be claimed by anyone on a low income who has capital of less than £16,000. For people on medication, pre-payment options can also significantly reduce the cost of recurring prescription charges. With a 12-month pre-payment certificate, the maximum cost of a prescription is £2 a week, although of course that is an issue only for England; for those with constituencies in Scotland, there are no prescription charges.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister made an important point a moment ago. He said that he agreed that support for free school meals and prescriptions should be tapered away. That is different from the proposal in the White Paper to have an income threshold and no support. Is that a change in Government thinking?

[Chris Grayling]

That is precisely what we have asked the Social Security Advisory Committee to examine for us: how best we deal with that cliff edge. We accept that it is there. How do we tackle it to maximise the likelihood of people moving into work?

In most cases, health charges will be one-off or occasional costs that are unlikely to weigh heavily in people’s perception of the financial gains from working. However, for some disabled people in particular, there may be a more significant factor. The current passport from working tax credit together with the separate NHS scheme for people on low incomes should mean that health costs are not, in theory, a disincentive to work, but we know that the reality is often dictated by perceptions and issues about access. We will work to get that right for universal credit. However, we await the Social Security Advisory Committee’s recommendations with interest and we believe that it will be necessary to consider them with other Departments. We need to find a way in which to address the matter that maintains support without creating insuperable barriers to returning to work. It is a complex subject, which falls beyond simply decision making by our Department because we are not responsible for much of it.

New clause 5 would ensure that claimants understand how the amount of universal credit that they receive is calculated. I share that goal, but we do not need primary legislation to achieve it. We are designing universal credit to ensure from the outset that people have the information that they need in an accessible form that is clearly set out. We intend to provide a clear record of any award when it is first made and of subsequent changes, ensuring that claimants are always up to date with the latest position.

Universal credit will be a digital service by default that claimants will predominantly access online. However, we recognise that not all universal credit claimants have access to the internet and we will continue to provide notification through other channels. We are also working with the Government Digital Service—as well as other partners—to help people get and stay online by providing more reliable internet access and training in communities. Of course, we put in place some of the measures to increase digital access when we debated the appropriate regulations last week.

The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) was concerned that one part of the benefits system going wrong would bring down the whole deck of cards for a family. She is wrong in thinking that, simply because we have multiple channels, the system somehow works well at the moment and will be much more vulnerable under universal credit. The current system does not often provide that security. Outstanding questions can affect a wide range of existing benefits, particularly at key points of transition, such as moving into work. Many people do not even claim everything to which they are entitled. Rather than a patchwork of provision, with people thinking, “Have I got everything I’m entitled to? If I don’t know a particular answer, everything gets delayed”, a single point of entry, a single point of access and a single system of paying benefits makes it less likely that somebody will get into difficulties and not receive all the money to which they are entitled. I do not therefore believe that the hon. Lady has got that right. We are confident that universal credit will not have the effect that she suggests—it will make it easier to access benefits. Of course, we intend to introduce a system of payment on account, which will allow some payments to be made even if all the details of the claim cannot be sorted out straight away.

Amendment 26 on reporting would make it a legal requirement that we assess and report on access to welfare advice, including advice for those unable to use the internet, before we introduce universal credit. Universal credit will be a simpler system than we have today. It will be easier for potential and existing claimants to find out relevant information online, and easier for advisers to understand and advise.

Welfare advice is already provided by Jobcentre Plus, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and local authorities through a variety of means—over the internet and via other routes.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Even if universal credit fulfils what the Minister describes—he says that it will be simpler, and although it will certainly be simpler superficially, in practice it may be more difficult—with any move from an old system, it takes time for people such as advisers to become familiar with the new system. Advice will be crucial at that pinch point. Will the Minister ensure that the organisations that provide advice are properly funded in that transitional period?

[Chris Grayling]

My view is that our partner organisations, such as Citizens Advice, need to be involved and informed of all the changes. We need to continue to be able to offer the valuable advice that they give to individuals. We provide quite substantial blocks of Government funding to Citizens Advice and similar organisations, and it will be for them to decide how best to use that financial support. In what are straitened financial times, I would hope that those organisations would see their priority as sending as much of that money as possible to front-line advice services, and spending as little as possible on central administration, central marketing activities and other head office functions. I would like those organisations to focus on providing every spare bit of cash that they can for front-line advice services—as well as finding ways of generating more spare cash for that purpose—because after all, that is where the money is most effectively and valuably spent.

We will seek to provide guidance, training and advice for advisers on the universal credit and the implications thereof. There is always a willingness on our part to talk to groups of advisers, including at some of the big conferences that Citizens Advice organises. I have not been able to do so yet—I have offered to do so on other matters—but we are always willing to provide such input to those organisations.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that the money currently given to Citizens Advice is spent centrally on vital services such as training advisers, the information system and support for those agencies? In fact, none of the money goes to local bureaux, which are extremely concerned about the effects of the cuts in 2013.

[Chris Grayling]

Every organisation has to look at how it operates in tougher times financially, and at how best to spend the money that it has available. I am sure that Citizens Advice will be no different in that respect.

Amendments 23 and 24 deal with the capital limit and propose that for claimants who work, the universal credit assessment should ignore savings that they hold in individual savings accounts up to a prescribed maximum of no less than £50,000. We fully understand the importance of saving. Working families should seek to provide for their future needs and larger purchases. However, families with substantial savings should draw on those reserves when their incomes fall, not look to the taxpayer for support. Our analysis suggests that in 2014-15, there will be up to 100,000 households on tax credits with savings over £16,000 who could be affected by the capital rules in universal credit. However, transitional protection will ensure that there are no cash losers at the point of the transition to universal credit where circumstances remain the same.

However, it is important to be fair to the taxpayer. Although nearly one in three pensioner households have savings in excess of £16,000, only 13% of households with a working-age adult in them have that much in savings. A typical working-age household has only £300 in savings. It cannot be right that people with significantly greater savings than the average family can claim universal credit. A maximum limit of at least £50,000 in ISA savings, as proposed by the right hon. Member for East Ham, is a large sum to be excluded from the capital ceiling. We are striking the right balance between protecting people with modest savings and placing responsibility for their own support on those with substantial resources. Once again, we are talking about an uncosted spending commitment. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would cost £70 million a year to uncap totally, but not that many people on universal credit would have savings of more than £50,000, so the majority of that £70 million would be spent on his measure. The reality is that this is a multi-tens-of-millions-of-pounds spending commitment. Once again, we have not heard from the right hon. Gentleman where the money would come from.

Amendment 30 to clause 10 would mean paying at least as much in the additional elements for disabled children as we did in benefits and child tax credit prior to the introduction of universal credit. As we announced in policy briefing note 1, “Additions for longer durations on Universal Credit”, we will retain two levels of payment for disabled children in universal credit. The higher element will be payable to more severely disabled children receiving the highest rate of the care component of disability living allowance. The lower rate will be payable to children receiving the other rates of the disability living allowance care component. The higher rate will be increased by £52 a year, with eligibility extended to children who are severely visually impaired, who currently receive only the lower entitlement.

The key change is that we propose to align the elements for disabled children and disabled adults. That means that the lower rate would be around £26.75 and the upper rate £74.50 a week in current figures. The lower rate for a less severely disabled child in universal credit would be less than now, but we have pledged that where universal credit entitlement is less, transitional protections will be put in place. Our aim is to simplify and align the additional elements for disabled children with those for adults. We do not think it right that when a young person claims benefits in their own right, the extra amounts payable for disability are different. We also want to focus resources on the most severely disabled children and adults. Savings from abolishing the adult disability premiums and changes in the child rate are not going back to the Exchequer. This is not a cutting exercise; it is about recycling that money into higher payments for more severely disabled people.

Amendments 27, 28 and 29 to schedule 1 relate to the regime for self-employment in universal credit. As I told the right hon. Gentleman many times in Committee, we are committed to ensuring that people in self-employment have the financial support that they need. Amendments 27 and 28 would take a power to allow “accruals accounting” of profits and losses from a trade to be used in the reporting of earnings from self-employment. Strictly speaking, that is unnecessary, as the power taken by paragraph 4(1)(b) of schedule 1 already permits such a regulation. Amendment 29 would limit the application of the power taken at paragraph 4(4), which allows for a minimum level of earned income from self-employment to be set. It proposes that the minimum level would not apply where the claimant’s business was conducted on a commercial basis with a view to the realisation of profits.

We recognise that self-employment is a vital element of the economy and will be an important contributor to the sustained recovery from recession that we all want. It is also an important route into work for many people. We are therefore giving careful consideration to the conditions that we set for people claiming universal credit who seek to make their living from self-employment. The enabling framework provided by the Bill allows the treatment of income from self-employment, including the definition of earnings to be taken into account, to be set in regulations. We therefore do not need to decide this question today; we can work to get it right. However, as I have said to the right hon. Gentleman previously, we have to deal with the issue carefully. It is not the intention to make it impossible for people to get into self-employment, particularly in the first few months, when they have difficulties and money does not come easily. However, in the current system, people can report no or very low income from their business activity and continue to receive the bulk of their benefit or tax credits entitlement. We want people to become progressively less reliant on benefits and universal credit. At the end of the day, we cannot have the taxpayer funding someone who is notionally self-employed—and on whom there is no job search requirement—but who generates little or perhaps no income at all from that self-employment. We have to apply a threshold to determine whether someone is credibly in self-employment or whether they are using self-employment as a reason for not looking for other job alternatives. We have to get this right.

[Mrs Main]

My right hon. Friend makes a valid point about people who are considered self-employed. Does he have any view about those who are considered self-employed who sell magazines such as The Big Issue?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is something that we need to address, because the current situation is not right. We need to ensure that the system is fair and justifiable in the eyes of taxpayers and other individuals. I share some of her anxieties, and although it is not in my remit to pursue the issue, I am sure that she will make her representations elsewhere in Government. It is not that we want to do anything that undermines that publication or others in a similar position; rather, we want to ensure that the position is not only fair and equitable, but defensible and justifiable.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend knows that I have expressed some concerns about this issue in the past. Can he give us an assurance that self-employed income will be based on actual income, rather than deemed income? Linking self-employed income with an assumption that people are earning the minimum wage would effectively put most farmers in this country the wrong side of the line, because probably most of them earn less per annum than they would if they were paid the minimum wage for the hours they work. The same goes for young barristers, lots of people in the carpentry and building trade, and others building up businesses. Surely the system should be based either on actual earnings or on something else. If it is based on something else, that surely needs to be spelt out clearly, because there are rumours circulating that we are effectively imposing a minimum wage by the back door on self-employed people.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, underlining the complexity of these issues and why I believe it inappropriate to set hard-and-fast rules in primary legislation. If we find that we have not got it right the first time around, or if things need to be done to remove anomalies, which they might well be, it makes no sense to have written the fine print into the detail of primary legislation, therefore making it more difficult to adjust accordingly. This is one reason why it is important to maintain as much flexibility as possible.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) referred to rumour, but the White Paper said that self-employed people would be deemed to have earned at least the minimum wage for each hour of employment. Can we take it from what the Minister is saying that the Government are reconsidering that White Paper decision?

[Chris Grayling]

As I said to the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, we are looking at the best way of doing this. We cannot have a situation in which people who are receiving an entitlement to the universal credit while generating no income at all over long periods of time still say that they are self-employed. We must ensure that that does not happen, and we are looking for the best way of doing it. If we wrote the rules into primary legislation, we would not be able to take decisions and fine-tune on the basis of experience, as we would have to come back to primary legislation every time. That is why I think it inappropriate to accept the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments.

Let me make some further progress. Amendment 33 seeks to remove the restriction on eligibility for pension credit for couples where one member is below and the other is above the pension credit qualifying age. Suffice it to say that although someone over the retirement age should be able to receive benefits for the household under the pension credit system, someone under the retirement age being able to receive the benefits of a means-tested system without having to go out and look for a job is just plain wrong. I am afraid we disagree on that, and I am comfortable with the changes. They are set out in legislation, which is where one would expect them to be set out. I am disappointed at the right hon. Gentleman’s disappointment that we have not issued a press release on the subject, but I do not think that this is the kind of change that would command the front pages of any newspaper. It seems perfectly reasonable to set out proposed changes in legislation, given that it is legislation that is laid before the House with accompanying explanatory notes that Members can read and discuss and into which they have an input.

Amendment 68 would add additional provisions for carers to paragraph 4(4) of schedule 1. It is not necessary to set a minimum level of payments to carers. The risk is that the incentives for carers to get into work are blurred by the automatic payment of an amount that does not relate to their personal circumstances. We all agree that work, not benefits, is the best route out of poverty, and we must ensure that payment levels are not set so high as to undermine that.

Amendment 61 takes us back to an issue that was extensively debated in Committee in respect of the payment of universal credit. Opposition Members suggest that that default position should be that payments made in respect of children are routinely directed to the carer. The amendment would provide powers to specify other circumstances for paying a portion of the universal credit award to a particular individual.

We have published a policy briefing note setting out our intentions for payments. We have already said that couples will be able to choose which of them receives the award and they could direct it to a joint account for both to access. It is a core principle of our approach that individuals are best placed to make choices about what is best for their own circumstances. There will, of course, be some exceptional circumstances and there are powers within the Bill to amend the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to allow the Secretary of State to pay all or part of an award to another individual. We do not need this amendment to ensure that. However, the default position should be that we make payment to the person chosen by the couple, not by anyone else.

Many of the concerns raised in this debate are, of course, about the possibility that universal credit might be less generous to some people than the current system of benefits and tax credits. We propose a radical reform and a simplification of the welfare system. In that situation, it is not possible to replicate exactly every aspect of the current system. That is why we will introduce a system of transitional protection to ensure that there are no cash losers as a result of the move to universal credit.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Will the Minister tell us how much will be available for the transitional protection? The figure of £2 billion was mentioned, but that included all the changes, all the administration and IT as well as the transitional protection. What is the spending envelope? How much will cover the transitional arrangements?

[Chris Grayling]

The £2 billion contains sufficient money for us to be able to deliver the transitional protection and the various changes. I do not have the numbers in front of me, but I will happily write to the hon. Lady to give her the more detailed figures we have published so far. We have given a clear commitment to transitional protection. It costs what it costs, but we have made a sensible projection of what we believe it will cost, which is contained in the budget for the spending review period. It is important to ensure that there are no cash losers as a result of the transition, but it is impossible to make a big change of this kind without finding that people in subsequent years are in a different financial position from their counterparts in previous years. Inevitably, some will move one way; others will move another. The only fair and proper way of dealing with the situation is to ensure that everyone is protected in cash terms.

We think that we have put together a framework in part 1 that will give us the flexibility to introduce the universal credit and to fine-tune the proposals as necessary so that if we do not get everything quite right at the start, we can fine-tune as we go by, and that a future Government will have the flexibility to do that. We have made absolutely sure that we have the appropriate protections in place so that there is an element for child care, for parents, for those with disabilities, and so on and so forth.

We think we have created a sensible framework of the kind that in different areas of policy and in different ways were created through primary legislation by previous Governments, including the last Government. I do not believe for a second that it would be prudent to write into the Bill the sort of amendments that the Opposition have tabled. I have responded to their wish to see more measures brought forward on the affirmative rather than the negative procedure, which I think is right and proves that we will listen and make amendments where it is sensible to do so. I am afraid that the Opposition are seeking to write the sort of detail into the Bill that they would never have put in legislation when they were in government; they would never have followed that approach themselves. That is why I cannot possibly accept their amendments and why I ask the House to accept the Government new clauses and to reject the Opposition amendments.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The debate we have had—in Committee and this evening—shows some of the pitfalls of saying, “We are going to simplify benefits.” The Minister and his colleagues have said to the country generally, “We're going to simplify benefits. This is a simpler system, so it must, by definition, be a good thing.” They expected and, indeed, got from many people the answer, “We agree that benefits should be simplified.” The problem is that when dealing with real people and real situations it all becomes much more complicated, as our debates tonight and on previous occasions have demonstrated quite clearly.

The details of issues such as school meals, health charges and the even bigger matter of child care are extremely important, and will have a real impact on whether the new system works for people, will make them better off, and enables them to get into employment, stay in employment, improve their circumstances and get out of poverty. We all agree that, except for those who suffer from real and deep health problems, employment is the best way out of poverty. If, however, such an important element as child care is left so undefined, we cannot know the answer to that question.

Frankly, we are being asked to buy a pig in a poke. We are told, “If you don’t accept it, don’t vote for it or don't agree with it, you are throwing over the whole issue of welfare reform.” I do not accept that. Nor do I accept the Minister’s view that he was given that sort of response by the previous Government and that there should be simply a framework—an empty bookcase, as he was wont to say in Committee—as there was before. It seems to me that if he thought it was wrong then—and it sounds as if he did—it may still be wrong now. As I said in Committee, people should not be asked to buy that empty bookcase without knowing whether it contains classics or cheap comics.

Work Programme Launch

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Friday 10th June 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am delighted to announce that the Department for Work and Pensions is launching the Work programme today. The Government’s vision of a high-quality, personalised employment programme for those benefit claimants throughout Great Britain who need more intensive support is now a reality.

The Work and Pensions Select Committee report published last month was very positive about DWP’s management of the procurement process despite the “very ambitious timescales” set. Thirty-eight of the 40 contracts have now been signed. The two remaining contracts are all on track to be signed—week commencing 13 June 2011.

Today, I will be personally visiting a provider in west London to meet their first participants and see first hand how they are starting to use the freedom we have given them to innovate and design personally and locally tailored support.

The Government will publish providers’ minimum service offers to all claimants in due course. This will ensure that claimants are aware what they can expect, and that providers live up to what they have told us they will deliver. We will also be publishing the details of the local voluntary, public and private sector organisations that make up the prime providers’ supply chains.

Unlike in previous employment programmes, the Government have adopted genuinely long-term goals in the design of the Work programme.

Providers will be in place for up to seven years, giving them time to invest in building strong relationships with local partners and to innovate to find what works, enabling them to deliver the best quality back to work support possible.

Claimants will join the programme for up to two years, so providers will have a real chance to address the most serious disadvantages some of our claimants face in the labour market.

Once claimants have found a job we will pay providers to help them keep it for up to 18 months for mainstream jobseekers, and up to 27 months for an employment and support allowance claimant moving from incapacity benefits.

I am confident we have given the Work programme every chance of making a real difference to long-term worklessness. We expect to see substantial indications of the success of the programme from spring 2013. A full independent evaluation has been commissioned for that year as the first customers complete their two years and I look forward to sharing the results with the House as soon as possible.

Universal Credit (Review of Passported Benefits)

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State responsible for welfare reform, Lord Freud of Eastry, has made the following statement:

We have commissioned the Social Security Advisory Committee to undertake an independent review of passported benefits and how they link with universal credit. Passported benefits include, for example, free school meals, free milk and vitamins, free prescriptions, optical and dental care.

The Committee has been asked to produce an advisory report, taking account of the UK Government’s view that changes should not involve a net increase in public expenditure and the benefit system should be as simple as possible. I have placed a copy of the terms of reference in the Library.

Back to Work Agenda

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

For at least the last five minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, that was a really disappointing speech. He spent 10 minutes setting out very eloquently the benefits of localism in Rhyl and the work that has been done by the local community to help young people and people of all ages into work. I listened with care, and he was actually making a good argument for the approach that we are taking in the Work programme. In a moment, I will set out how we hope that the Work programme will address some of the challenges faced by towns such as his.

I am well aware of the excellent work that has been done on the ground in Rhyl. It is a good example of how a partnership between providers, local authorities, local business and other organisations to help people into employment can be fruitful. He referred to Working Links, and he will be aware that it is one of the preferred bidders for the Work programme across Wales. It has certainly built experience in Rhyl that can be used in the rest of Wales. However, that was where it stopped, and for the last five minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, one would have believed that we were back to the rhetoric of the 1980s and the Morning Star. We heard a rather outdated view of class war and an apparent belief that Conservative Members and the Government have no interest in helping employment. He could not be more wrong. He needs to understand, first and foremost, the legacy that we inherited.

One would have believed from listening to the hon. Gentleman that the past 15 years were a period of great employment success, but nothing could be further from the truth. We have gone through a long period in which we have consistently had almost 5 million people on out-of-work benefits. Although there have been increases in employment, such as the growth by almost 4 million in the past few years, we know thanks to the assiduous work of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who spent a lot of time in the previous Parliament teasing out of the previous Government the reality of the labour market, that far too many of those jobs—indeed, the majority—went not to unemployed people in this country but to people coming to the UK from overseas. That was a great tragedy and a great failure. Billions of pounds were spent on nationally organised back to work schemes that did not deliver the change that we needed.

The hon. Gentleman made a good point when he said that he did not want to see the man or woman coming from Whitehall with a big stick to try to get people into work. I agree with him, but that was the failing of the previous Government’s policy. Programmes were designed in Whitehall, to a template designed in Whitehall and on a contractual basis designed in Whitehall, and they did not deliver the improvement that we needed. That is why we are determined to change things and have brought an entirely fresh approach to back to work programmes. I believe that that approach will help and harness the expertise that has been built up in his town of Rhyl over the months and years.

Let me explain to the hon. Gentleman how the Work programme is designed to work. He will be aware that the contracting of the programme has involved not only individual prime contractors such as Working Links but a network of private small businesses, voluntary organisations, local charities, local groups with expertise on the ground in dealing with unemployment challenges and local public sector bodies. A number of local colleges are also involved in delivering the Work programme. We have decided to say to those providers that it is not the Government who know best how to get people into work, and who are best placed to design the programmes that will work in various parts of the country, it is the professionals on the ground.

We have said that we will leave it to the providers to design what works. We want to encourage them to form excellent local partnerships such as the hon. Gentleman describes as having worked well in Rhyl. The only thing that we ask of them is that they succeed. We have put in place a payment-by-results regime, in which the prime contractors are investing £580 million over the next 12 months. We have confidence in their ability to build consortia of organisations and local partnerships, and in their capability to transform the lives of unemployed individuals around the country. We will reward them when they succeed in getting the unemployed into work. The scheme is designed to deliver the type of localism that he described in Rhyl. We believe that localism can work well around the country, and it is the essence of the Work programme and the black box approach.

[Chris Ruane]

We’ve been doing it for 10 years.

[Chris Grayling]

No, the tragedy is that the Labour Government did not do that for 10 years. There were one or two isolated pockets where there were very good local partnerships, and the hon. Gentleman has described one in Rhyl which was clearly very good, but in too many places that did not happen. Individual communities did not have the type of support that he described. They had top-down programmes designed in Whitehall. The man or woman from Whitehall with the big stick did indeed go down and tell people how things should be done.

I remember that when I held the work and pensions brief in opposition, I used to receive regular e-mails and letters from people who had been referred to the employment programmes that the previous Government had put in place and were hugely frustrated. They were being referred for a 13-week period, more often than not to sit in a classroom for the entire time, with a few lessons on how to fill in a CV and do interviews and the occasional work placement. However, they absolutely did not get the type of diverse programme that the hon. Gentleman described.

I am all in favour of some of the initiatives that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, although I do not know the details of every one. He described young people setting up their own market stalls and unemployed young people rebuilding community centres to gain the skills that they need. I applaud such valuable initiatives.

One thing that excites me when I look at the ideas of Work programme bidders is that we have challenged them to move beyond where they were before. We set a minimum performance standard in excess of what previous national programmes had achieved, precisely because we wanted to drive innovation, new ideas and much more tailored provision. I do not want one-size-fits-all provisions, because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, they do not work. A wide variety of individuals have been on benefits for the long term. He referred to young people who grew up in households in which their parents and grandparents did not work, and who had no experience of a working environment as they grew up. We must help those people back into an understanding of what they can achieve in the workplace. Some older people find that the profession that they spent 20 or 30 years in is no longer available to them. We need to help them to find something different to do with the remainder of their working years.

The Government have actively sought new ideas and a new approach. The exciting thing about the Work programme bids is that there have been real signs of innovation that move beyond that 13 weeks in the classroom and the structure of past programmes.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I appreciate the need to recognise that unemployed people are individuals with individual circumstances, to which the Minister has referred. My concern is that Jobcentre Plus does not always recognise that at a local level in respect, for example, of the new requirement that lone parents seek work when their youngest child is aged seven—the age is eight at the moment. I hear tales of people being told that they are regarded as not looking for work, because they say that they cannot work in the evenings because babysitters are unavailable, or because they turn down a job that starts at 9.30 am and they have to drop the kids off at school on the other side of town at 9 am. Will the Minister reassure me that such people will not be penalised?

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give the hon. Lady that reassurance. She will know that there is a definition of reasonableness in deciding whether somebody should be required to take a job. We only expect lone parents with a child at primary school to take up a job that is consistent with school hours—it would be absurd to expect a lone parent to work a night shift, for example. I absolutely assure her that that is the case.

While we are on that point, I will pick up the point that the hon. Gentleman raised on targets. The truth is that we discovered that problem, were horrified about it and put a stop to it immediately. However, is he aware of the roots of the problem? The roots are in a set of benchmarks that were introduced by Jobcentre Plus regions to judge whether appropriate sanctions were being achieved in each area, why there were differences, and whether policy was being applied uniformly. In an organisation that is, in my view, too target and detail-focused, the consequence was that in some areas, that was interpreted as a need to apply the individual target of which the hon. Gentleman is now aware.

However, the hon. Gentleman might be unaware that the those benchmarks were introduced in 2006 under the previous Government. Jobcentre Plus is much too focused on targets and goals. Benchmarks are turned into individual targets for front-line staff, and the organisation’s culture does not appreciate the fact that we want front-line individuals to use discretion. We are going through a long change process after 13 years. Jobcentre Plus is used to taking diktats from the top, but this Government are saying, “We want you to use discretion in the front line and to take the right decisions in the interests of individual with whom you are dealing. We do not want you constantly to look back over your shoulder to ask what the centre is saying.” That is an important development, but it will take us time to feed through the whole organisation.

Ironically, given what the hon. Gentleman said about targets, that policy dates back to changes made by the Labour party when it was in power. Indeed, last April it changed the rules actively to encourage an increase in the number of sanctions—again, something that we inherited. It is easy to look at the current Government and say, “What are you doing?”, but actually it is a problem which we inherited, which has grown and which we are now trying to unpick.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the future jobs fund. I know that Labour Members are wedded to it, but in truth it cost four times as much per job outcome as the previous Government’s other scheme, the new deal for young people. At the end of the day, given that we have inherited the biggest budget deficit in Britain’s peacetime history, we have to take some hard decisions and look for value for money. The problem with the future jobs fund was that it was a six-month work placement in the public or voluntary sector with no clear pathway through to a long-term career. We took the view that it was much better to invest our money in apprenticeships, where the young person spends an extended period with a private sector employer gaining skills that will provide the foundations of a lifetime’s career and that will not simply lead to a shutter coming down at the end of six months.

We are pretty early on in our apprenticeships programme, but we are already having considerable success in getting employers to take up apprenticeships. I was delighted to go to Newcastle earlier in the week and see the front page of The Journal announcing a great success for the paper’s campaign to encourage small employers to provide apprenticeships for young people. That is the kind of partnership that I really like. I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of local partnerships. I want local employer groups, papers and public sector organisations working together to encourage young people to take up apprenticeships and to encourage local employers to provide apprenticeships. He will know that we are focused on ensuring that we provide work experience places for young people, but above all we are trying to ensure that decisions are taken locally. In the context of what is being done in Rhyl, there is nothing in the Work programme that prevents that work from continuing. Excellence will flourish in the Work programme. The whole system is designed to give local communities, providers on the ground and local organisations the freedom to do what works for the individual, which is what is important.

In conclusion, I regard unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, as among the most important of this Government’s challenges. I am relishing the chance—

Employment and Support Allowance

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing this debate. It is a useful opportunity to put on the record, once again, the things that we are doing to make sure that this is a proper, fair and appropriate process.

I should like to correct the hon. Lady on a number of things that she has mentioned where she has not got her facts right or is a little out of date. First, however, I pay tribute to her for referring to the fact that it was the previous Government who introduced this system. She has set out in detail the context for the changes that we are putting in place. I agree with her that the system that we inherited was not adequate. It did not do the job properly and in many cases led to wrong decisions about individuals. I and my colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions have spent the past year trying to sort all that out, so that we were ready for the start of the migration process. I shall explain to the hon. Lady in some detail how that was done.

I shall begin by picking up on some of the points made about Atos, the contractors. The hon. Lady mentioned that Atos was contracted, but, as she knows, it was contracted originally by the previous Government. We have not sought to change the contracting arrangements because, frankly, it would be massively disruptive to do so in the middle of the process. What we have sought to do is address the issues surrounding Atos that have led to concerns being raised. Let me be clear—Atos has no financial targets. A myth has been circulating for some time that our contractors are incentivised to find people fit for work. That is absolutely not the case and I am happy to put that on the record.

It is also not the case that there is a target of seeing 10 people a day. The only indicators and targets that Atos has relate to the quality of the work that it does for us. We have been careful to make sure that that is the case. It would be absolutely inappropriate to have a situation in which a third-party contractor was incentivised to reach a particular outcome in an area as sensitive as this. The hon. Lady can be reassured that that is not the case.

Before moving on to the details of the Harrington review, I shall address the hon. Lady’s query about the internal review, which was carried out by the previous Government, which made a number of recommendations to us, and with which we have decided, after much thought, to proceed. The internal review was carried out over the last 12 to 18 months of the previous Government. It looked at how the assessment was working and made a number of recommendations about changes. It did a number of things in particular, and there are two or three reasons why I decided to accept the recommendations of the previous Government and to implement that set of changes—they were introduced at the start of last month—to the assessment. The first of them related to mental health. The hon. Lady is not right on the mental health issue. This is a matter of great concern to me. I am acutely aware that mental health problems and fluctuating conditions are crucial, as she rightly said. Getting them right is fundamentally important. They are the most difficult areas of health challenge to deal with as we go through the assessment process.

We looked carefully at the impact that changes to the assessment recommended by the internal review would have on people with mental health conditions. The assessment we have carried out shows, in fact, that more people with mental health conditions will find themselves in the support group with long-term unconditional support than would have previously been the case. The set of changes we have just introduced should increase the number of people who receive ongoing unconditional support for mental health conditions. That seemed the right thing to do.

The second thing we did was to address the fact that people in between periods of chemotherapy could, theoretically, be found fit for work. We did not think that that was right and therefore we have excluded people who are in between courses of chemotherapy from any kind of return-to-work process, as well as those involved in chemotherapy at a particular moment in time. Again, that seemed the right thing to do.

On the change the hon. Lady referred to in relation to people who are blind, partially sighted or in wheelchairs, we had a situation that was inappropriate and wrong. Let us think of the motivation behind these changes. Fundamentally, we are trying to help people with the potential to work to get into work and not end up spending the rest of their lives on benefits. The internal review highlighted that, under the previous system, if someone was a Paralympic athlete with a university degree, there was no obligation for them to look for a job. That is not right. Some people who are blind or partially sighted and are out of work have long since adapted to that condition and have worked before. They should be looking for another job and it is wrong to say that that should not be the case simply because they are blind or partially sighted. I am not suggesting that that is what the hon. Lady was saying, but that is what the previous system provided for. We have introduced an adaptation factor into the assessment, so that a judgment is made about how well somebody has or has not adapted to their condition. That factor will have to be considered.

I want to give the hon. Lady more detailed context on the way in which that consideration now takes place. Over the past few months, we have made big changes to the whole process precisely because of the kind of issues she has rightly identified. I have no interest whatsoever in putting anybody who is not fit for work into a position whereby they are being pushed towards trying to find work. That is not in our interests as Ministers, as a Government, as individuals or as a society. Indeed, if somebody is not fit for work, an employer will not hire them, so we would achieve nothing from such an approach.

We inherited the internal review and looked at its conclusions, which we have implemented. We set up the Harrington review precisely because we had concerns of the kind that the hon. Lady has raised. She has rightly looked at the Harrington recommendations, of which there are 25. As we stand here today, all the recommendations bar, I think, two have already been implemented and the other two are due to be implemented by the end of this month. By the time we get to the point in June when the first big wave of people will be reassessed as part of the incapacity benefit-employment and support allowance migration, all of the Harrington recommendations will be in place. The ESA50 form has already been updated and the various other recommendations have all been put in place. I reassure her that there is no question of waiting for a point much later in the year before all that happens; it is happening now. When Harrington provided his recommendations, something I insisted on with officials is that we cracked on and delivered these changes, so that they are in place for the IB-ESA migration.

The most important of Professor Harrington’s key recommendations was about the decision-making process. We had a situation whereby, up until the past few months, the final decision about whether somebody was found fit for work was technically taken by a decision maker who was a senior member of staff within Jobcentre Plus. Those members of staff had tended to view the outcome of the Atos assessment—the work capability assessment—as gospel because it was carried out by a health care professional. They thought such assessments just had to be rubber-stamped.

We have changed that totally and have created a process through which the decision makers are told not only that it is their decision, but that they have to look at other evidence—for example, the hon. Lady referred to GPs’ evidence. Our decision makers are expected to look at other medical evidence submitted by the individual concerned and at the GP’s and consultant’s comments to form a rounded view. Indeed, if they believe that they do not have enough evidence, they have the freedom to go back and ask for more. That is a big change. We have effectively downgraded the role of the work capability assessment in the process. It is an important part of the decision, but it is no longer the only part of the decision. That will make a big difference.

Professor Harrington highlighted precisely the situation the hon. Lady identified surrounding mental health conditions. That issue is a hugely complex and sensitive area that needs to be dealt with carefully. Within the Atos health care professional network, Professor Harrington recommended that we introduce mental health champions to whom the assessors can turn for advice if they are uncertain about how to react to particular responses. Those champions are already in place. In fact, we have gone back to Atos and said, “We’d like some more of them please.” The numbers will be increased by the early summer. I am very keen to ensure that we provide a proper focus on and expertise in the mental health field.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

On the decision makers and support for mental health, could the Minister provide some numbers and the geographical basis of those numbers, because it is an issue of real concern in north Wales?

[Chris Grayling]

In terms of the mental health champions, there are I think about 50 in the network. The number will rise further and is rising; they are being recruited all the time. By the time the process is finished, there will be one champion for about every two to two-and-a-half assessment centres. Someone will be constantly on call. In some cases, those champions will be present and, in other cases, they will be at the end of a phone line. The hon. Lady made reference to the Harrington recommendation on the individualised statement—the summary of the assessment. We want the champions to be involved when the individual concerned picks the phone up and says, “I’m not quite sure about this.” That view can be reflected in that statement, which will be introduced later this month. So that recommendation will have been dealt with as well.

[Angela Smith]

I am very pleased with the fullness of the Minister’s response, but will he comment on the situation that threatens individuals with long-term and sometimes terminal conditions, such as emphysema, who may be fit for some form of work, albeit only for a few hours a week? Those people are currently failed by the system.

[Chris Grayling]

I will come on to that because I want to make another point in response to the hon. Lady’s question about fluctuating conditions. Professor Harrington is currently working on that to see if there is anything else we need to do. However, we are trying to ensure that there is expertise within the Atos network of individuals and that training is provided to both decision makers and Atos professionals about fluctuating conditions.

On the hon. Lady’s other point, a crucial part of this jigsaw puzzle is the Work programme that will start in about three or four weeks’ time. That programme is designed to provide specialist support for precisely the kind of person she has mentioned. She said that the person concerned wants to work, but that he clearly cannot work in the job he had before. If we put him into the sickness benefits environment and leave him there, he will probably never work again. We can offer him the opportunity to have specialist support through the Work programme, with providers who are contracted on a payment-by-results basis and in a system where we pay different amounts for different levels of challenge. For example, somebody who is coming off sickness benefits will command a higher tariff than somebody who is a conventional job seeker without sickness challenges. The aim is to encourage the providers to work with somebody in that position to find a job that he can fulfil.

I do not regard it as acceptable—I am sure that the hon. Lady and I share this view—to have a situation whereby anyone who has the potential to work is parked on the sidelines and is unable to get the support that they need to get into work. From our point of view, the most fundamental part of the change is not to try to find people who cannot work fit for work. Indeed, those who end up in the support group—the group that needs ongoing unconditional support—will get more money as a result of the change.

The key goal is to identify those people who have the potential to return to work so that, through the Work programme and other support provided by Jobcentre Plus, we can give them the help they need to get into the workplace. That is what this is all about. We will do our best to get it right, but I am sure that we will make some mistakes along the way. We have introduced a reconsideration stage at Jobcentre Plus to try to ensure that we catch our mistakes early. However, it is important to realise that this is all about helping people who could work to do so. Otherwise, the only alternative is for them to spend the rest of their life on benefits, and I do not believe that that is in their interests or in any of our interests.

Work and Pensions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Lisa Nandy]

To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 16 March 2011, Official Report, columns 9-10W, on the public bodies reform programme, what estimate he has made of the savings to his Department net of costs incurred in the assumption of additional departmental responsibilities to accrue from (a) the abolition of three public bodies within his Department's area of responsibility, (b) the merger of one such body and (c) the change in function of two such bodies.

[Official Report, 21 March 2011, Vol. 525, c. 856-57W.]

Letter of correction from Mr Chris Grayling:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on 21 March 2011.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Chris Grayling]

On 16 March 2011, Official Report, columns 9-10W, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), issued a written ministerial statement updating Parliament on progress on public bodies reform. That statement also announced that Departments estimate cumulative administrative savings of at least £2.6 billion will flow from public bodies over the spending review period.

I anticipate net overall administrative savings from structural reforms over the spending review period of £0.141 million. Overall administrative reductions from reform of all departmental public bodies are currently estimated to be £17.95 million over the spending review period.

The correct answer should have been:

[Chris Grayling]

On 16 March 2011, Official Report, columns 9-10W, my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General issued a written ministerial statement updating Parliament on progress on public bodies reform. That statement also announced that Departments estimate cumulative administrative savings of at least £2.6 billion will flow from public bodies over the spending review period.

I anticipate net overall administrative savings from structural reforms over the spending review period of £0.354 million. Overall administrative reductions from reform of all departmental public bodies are currently estimated to be £17.95 million over the spending review period.

Work Programme (Preferred Bidders)

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

This morning, the Government took another major step forward in their delivery of the most sweeping welfare reforms for 60 years, announcing preferred bidders for 40 Work programme contracts.

Competition for contracts was intense, with 177 bids submitted by 30 organisations, and this has led to a diverse and high-quality list of preferred bidders.

We have also been very encouraged by preferred bidders’ response to the emphasis we placed on the involvement of voluntary, local and community organisations in Work programme delivery. There is impressive voluntary sector involvement with almost 300 voluntary sector organisations involved in delivery of the Work programme as sub-contractors, and two voluntary sector organisations and one public sector organisation as prime contractors. Voluntary sector organisations make up a substantial proportion of prime contractors’ supply chains, in some cases over 50%, representing an investment of £95 million in the voluntary and community sector.

We have chosen at least two providers to deliver in each of the 11 contract package areas. Their relative performance will determine their future share of the welfare-to-work market in each contract area, and we expect that this ongoing competition will continue to drive quality and performance in live running.

The new payment-by-results system will deliver better value for money by paying providers from additional benefit savings they create, and providers will be paid more for helping those with the greatest needs, creating better incentives to deliver truly tailored support for everyone.

The announcement of preferred bidders today keeps us on track for successful delivery of the Work programme in June, delivering innovative back-to-work support for around 2.4 million people.

I will place a document containing the list of preferred bidders in the Library today.

Skills Conditionality (Response to Public Consultation)

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

Today my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning and I have published a joint response to the public consultation on the implementation of skills conditionality.

The consultation proposed that claimants could be mandated to undertake activity to address an identified skills need, putting this on the same basis as other conditionality requirements. We consulted on the implementation of skills conditionality in order to make it fair, consistent and as administratively straightforward as possible. We are grateful to those who took the time to respond and will be reviewing delivery plans in the light of the comments we have received.

The Government believe it is right that claimants who are able to look for work should be required to do so as a condition of receiving benefit. Getting the right skills is one way of preparing for work and failure to meet those responsibilities should result in a financial sanction.

Skills conditionality will be introduced in England from August 2011 and will apply to those claiming jobseeker’s allowance and in the work-related activity group on employment and support allowance who are referred to training by a Jobcentre Plus adviser.

Copies of the consultation response are available on the DWP website at; http://dwp.gov.uk/consultations/.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

19. What recent progress has been made on implementing the recommendations of the Harrington review of work capability assessment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We are committed to taking forward Professor Harrington’s recommendations so that we can make the system we inherited from the previous Government fairer and more effective. Many of the changes he proposed are already in place, and we will implement the remainder by the summer, to coincide with the first work capability assessments of incapacity benefit claimants taking part in the full nationwide reassessment.

[Annette Brooke]

I thank the Minister for his answer. What guidance and training will be given to decision makers and Atos Healthcare professionals on implementing the new work capability assessment effectively and fairly, and in particular what training will be given for assessing people with fluctuating conditions such as multiple sclerosis and ME?

[Chris Grayling]

Staff decision makers in Jobcentre Plus and Atos assessors are currently going through a renewed training programme to take into account the changes proposed by Professor Harrington. We have also now moved ahead with, and pretty much put in place, the recommendation to have champions in the network who specialise in dealing with some of the more challenging conditions which will undoubtedly be a factor in the assessments, and on which expertise may not previously have existed to a sufficient degree.

[Sheila Gilmore]

One of the findings of the Harrington report was that the Jobcentre Plus decision makers were not, in fact, making decisions; rather, they were simply rubber-stamping the Atos assessments. What steps have been taken to ensure that that is no longer the case, and will the Minister publish some figures on this so that we can have some reassurance that that has actually changed?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. That was clearly one of the flaws in the system we inherited. We have retrained decision makers, instructing them to take into account a broader range of evidence than simply the assessment so that claimants now have the opportunity to submit proper evidence from their own medical practitioners, and we have made it absolutely clear to decision makers that they are in charge. We have also introduced a process of reconsideration within Jobcentre Plus to reinforce that process.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

The Harrington review contained some very welcome and important recommendations that the Government are implementing, including on increasing the discretion of Jobcentre Plus staff. In contrast, the Department recently introduced regulations making the descriptors for work capability assessments more prescriptive. As Professor Harrington will now be reviewing the descriptors as well, can the Minister assure the House that the Government will take into account Professor Harrington’s recommendations in that area, and look in general at the descriptors being applied to work capability assessments?

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give that assurance. We want to get this right, and we have introduced these changes because we think they improve the process. For example, we expect more mental health patients to end up in the support group as a result of the changes we have introduced. I have made it very clear to everyone involved that if there are further ways of improving the process, as a result either of recommendations from Professor Harrington or of the experience of the national roll-out, we will move quickly to make the necessary changes.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I want to be clear on what the Minister is saying will be in place by June in respect of Professor Harrington’s recommendations, and whether that will include the new descriptors—I understand that they will be another year away. I ask about this because my constituents have already been through the system as they are the first to be migrated from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance. It is important to ensure that they have been assessed properly, because they will also be the first cohort whose contributory ESA will be removed from them after they have been on it for a year—there is an unfairness in that process too.

[Chris Grayling]

We will take all necessary steps to ensure that the decision-making process is correct. Professor Harrington did not recommend changes to the descriptors ahead of the national roll-out; he recommended that they should be part of the second year review process. I invited him to accelerate that work, and if and when he makes further recommendations, either before or as part of the second year review, we will move quickly to implement them.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to reduce the level of benefit fraud.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We are taking all necessary measures to try to clamp down on benefit fraud—we are using the latest technology—and we regard this as a key area for progress. The introduction of the universal credit, which will provide better flows of information around the Department, will make it easier to reduce fraud.

[Andrew Bridgen]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that his Department is not only sharing data with other Departments but using the services of credit rating agencies to detect fraudulent claims? Such claims not only unfairly burden the taxpayer but unfairly tarnish those in genuine need of help.

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. The Welfare Reform Bill improves the flow of information and data sharing within the public sector. I can also confirm that we are now working closely with credit reference agencies—he will understand if I do not give too many details, as I do not want to give the fraudsters advance notice of what is coming.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that companies such as Atos Healthcare, which is French-based, are paid about £100 million per annum by taxpayers, yet in Scotland alone 40% of those deemed “fit to work” won their appeal. Does he think that that is a good use of money? Would it not be better used tracking down those who are avoiding paying tax in this country?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight the flaws in the system we inherited from his party when it was in government. We have taken steps to improve the process. The Harrington review was designed to ensure that we have a better and more just process, with fewer appeals being made. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about wanting to see the number of appeals reduced significantly, but it is the right of the individual claimant to appeal if they so choose.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the potential effects on incentives to work of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.

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[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

16. What progress his Department has made on delivering new enterprise allowance support in Merseyside.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am pleased to inform my hon. Friend that the new enterprise allowance was launched in Merseyside on 31 January. We have a partner in place to deliver the mentoring support, which is being done through the local chambers of commerce, and we have appointed a provider for the NEA loans service. The early signs are promising: we have had nearly 400 referrals from Jobcentre Plus to the mentoring service, more than half of whom are now working with a business mentor, and some of the propositions for new businesses are close to fruition.

[Guto Bebb]

Certainly, in the 1980s and 1990s the enterprise allowance was a great success in north Wales and I look forward to a roll-out to our part of the world. If the enterprise allowance is rolled out throughout the rest of the United Kingdom, what proposals does his Department have to ensure that the universal credit will work in tandem with the enterprise allowance scheme in order to ensure that work pays, even for the self-employed?

[Chris Grayling]

It is important to say that we recognise the need to ensure that the universal credit works with self-employment. In the detailed design of the universal credit, we will ensure that it aligns with initiatives such as the new enterprise allowance, but more broadly we will make sure that self-employed people can also benefit from the support that the credit offers. They are a crucial part of our economic future.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

How will my hon. Friend ensure that we harness the skills and expertise of business to help unemployed people get their own businesses up and running?

[Mr Speaker]

With reference to Merseyside.

[Chris Grayling]

In the context of Merseyside, we have been very pleased by the co-operation and support that we have had from the chambers of commerce. They are actively recruiting more mentors among the local business community. The lessons we have derived from Merseyside will enable organisations in other parts of the country and Jobcentre Plus to follow best practice in getting the scheme up and running nationwide in the course of the year.

[Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

20. What estimate he has made of the likely effects on welfare expenditure of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.

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[Laura Sandys]

I would like to associate myself and my local fishermen with the condolences that the Secretary of State paid to our hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray).

I, like many other hon. Friends, am taking on an apprentice, and I wondered what the Department was doing to support apprenticeships and work placements, which are so crucial to giving young people that first step in the workplace.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We are doing two things. First, we are supporting the programmes in a practical sense. We already have apprentices working in the Department, but we as a Department will take a lead in providing work experience places—including something like 4,000 throughout the Department per year. We will also actively go out and encourage organisations to come forward and take part in the work experience programme. I hope every company in the country—private, public and voluntary sector organisations—will give young people the chance to take those first steps in the workplace.

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

May I start by associating Opposition Members with the condolences expressed to the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray)? The circumstances that the Secretary of State outlined were extremely tragic.

May I return the Secretary of State to our debate this afternoon and ask about what the Prime Minister said to the House last week? He said that he had no plans to proceed with the removal of the mobility component of disability living allowance, and the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, his hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) appeared to confirm that this afternoon. Yet, two hours after the Prime Minister sat down, his right hon. Friend the Chancellor said that he was ploughing ahead with making the savings. Whose side is the Secretary of State on? The Prime Minister’s or the Chancellor’s?

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[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

T3. I should like to ask the Secretary of State what advantage he sees in placing young people on to apprenticeship schemes as opposed to a six-month placement on the Work programme.

[Chris Grayling]

Essentially, the Work programme’s role is to help those who are longer-term unemployed and are struggling to get into the workplace. Our work experience proposals and apprenticeship plans are very much geared towards those who are newer in the labour market and looking for opportunities in the early few weeks of job search. Of course, the really stark comparison is between what we are proposing and the vastly expensive future jobs fund run by the previous Government, which has proved to be three or four times more expensive than even their relatively unsuccessful new deals. In my view, our programmes will make a difference in a way that theirs did not.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

T2. Many of my constituents are facing lengthy delays in benefit appeals coming to tribunal. This causes real worry, but also financial hardship. What action are the Government taking to address this, given that demands on the Tribunals Service are increasing?

[Chris Grayling]

I am acutely aware of the issue to which the hon. Lady refers. We have been in detailed discussions with the Tribunals Service about this, and it is moving ahead with an increase in capacity that will help to ease the situation. We have also, for the national roll-out of the incapacity benefit reassessment, introduced a reconsideration stage at Jobcentre Plus level to try to reduce the number of appeals and to make sure that we get as many decisions as possible absolutely right.

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[Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

T8. Under new welfare rules, jobseekers will be required to undertake mandatory work activity placements such as stacking shelves for 30 hours a week for at least four weeks, and if they do not comply, their jobseeker’s allowance could be withheld. Can the Secretary of State tell me what safeguards are going to be put in place to prevent exploitation and whether sanctions will be placed on Work programme providers if it is found to be occurring?

[Chris Grayling]

The whole point about the mandatory work activity programme is that we listened to the advice of our front-line advisers on what they felt could make the biggest difference to the people they are working with. That is what this programme is designed to achieve in giving people an opportunity to step up their work search by getting involved in more full-time activity to get themselves focused on the challenge ahead. There will clearly be safeguards. Ultimately, the most important safeguard lies in the discretion of our front-line staff. There is no obligation for any staff member to sanction an individual if they judge a sanction to be inappropriate. They know and understand when a sanction is necessary, and when it is not, and that is guidance that we will continue to give to them.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

T7. My right hon. Friend is no doubt aware that my constituents in Lincoln help to fund welfare spending in this country. Welfare spending has increased from £132 billion 10 years ago to £192 billion at present—an estimated real-terms increase of 45%. Will he assure me that even in these difficult economic times, this Government, unlike the last Labour Administration, will do all they can to help people in Lincoln who are genuinely able to move from welfare into work?

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Having work experience and money reserved for apprenticeships will not automatically equal a reduction in unemployment among young people. When will the Minister report to the House on the unemployment that is faced by young people, and what will he do if the numbers do not fall?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady needs to understand that this problem has been building steadily for the past decade. It happened in good years under the previous Government. We are dealing with the appalling inheritance of 600,000 young people who left school, college or university and have never worked. We think that our programmes will start to make a difference, that they will be better value for taxpayers’ money, and that they will be more effective than the previous Government’s programmes. Above all, we think that apprenticeships give the foundation for a lifetime of skills and employment. That is why they were such a centrepiece of the Budget.

[Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

T9. Severe autism sufferer, Alastair Bolan, and his family came to my surgery in Winchester on Friday afternoon. Like many families living with the condition, they are anxious about the move to personal independence payments. They made the case to me passionately that a one-to-one interview for Alastair would be an absolute disaster, as it would be for many like him who have been granted permanent disability living allowance with good reason. I know that the Minister is good at reaching out to organisations, so will she reassure me that she will continue to engage with the all-party group and autism charities to minimise the uncertainty that some people feel?

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[Chris Grayling]

I express my sympathy to those of my hon. Friend’s constituents in that position. Unemployment is a very difficult thing for anybody to experience. We have put together a number of different proposals. Most immediately, there is support through the Jobcentre Plus rapid reaction service in the immediate aftermath of redundancy. Schemes such as the new enterprise allowance, as it is rolled out across the country, will give people the opportunity to move into self-employment, and we will examine all other sensible ways of ensuring that we mitigate the impact of unemployment on people at what remain difficult times in the labour market.