Points of Order

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

rose—

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Perhaps I can call the Leader of the House first. I should say that I am not aware of exactly when the letter was sent or received, but I have long been aware that this is a matter of great interest and concern to Members across the House. The whole situation is extremely unsatisfactory, and if the Leader of the House would like to come to the Dispatch Box, we would be pleased to hear from him.

[Chris Grayling]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Let me say first of all that the Government and I share the frustration of the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) at the amount of time that this has taken. None of us has ever sought to hide that fact. There are clearly lessons that will need to be learned from this whole process. It is in none of our interests that this should have taken so long. We were in opposition at the time, so we have no vested interest in delaying the matter. I understand his concerns, but he will understand that this process is outwith the control of the Government. Sir John’s timetable is entirely in his own hands. On the timing of this announcement, I do not know the time at which the letter was released, but it is certainly not my job to pre-announce a letter from Sir John Chilcot before he has announced it himself.

[Paul Flynn]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I say gently that I want to hear the points of order—we will hear from the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) in a moment—but the Leader of the House was absolutely correct to say that it was not for him to pre-empt the delivery or publication of any letters. However, in the light of what I sense to be a strong feeling across the House, it would be extremely helpful if, when the Leader of the House is in full possession of the facts, he were to consider an early, short statement, on which there would be an opportunity for questioning, at the start of next week. I merely put that thought to him now. He will have an opportunity to reflect on it. Let us hear whether he wishes to say anything further in response to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis).

[Chris Grayling]

I simply wish to assure my right hon. Friend that I have seen absolutely no evidence of a desire in Government to stall this matter. Indeed, the Prime Minister has been as keen as anyone in this House, including the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), to see the report published, so there is no desire in the Government to slow it up. It has been a matter of frustration that it has taken so long, but it is outwith our control. I will certainly take back with me the point about an early statement.

[Paul Flynn]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. The Committee that set up the Chilcot inquiry was the old Public Administration Committee under Tony Wright. At that time, there were misgivings about the form of the inquiry, and the suggestion was made that the inquiry should be run by Parliament directly, which would have been an entirely new form of inquiry. Would it not have been better if parliamentarians had had control of it? Furthermore, as we have had no explanation for the terrible loss of 179 lives in Iraq and for the Helmand incursion that resulted in 454 lives being lost when we believed that we would be going there without a shot being fired, can we have an assurance from Government that we will have no more talk about military interventions in the four-sided war in Syria before all those matters are reported on?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I think we should leave the exchange pretty much there, but of course if the Leader of the House wishes to respond, he can do so. The hon. Lady has made her point very clearly and it is on the record—or it will be on the record—in the Official Report. The Leader of the House will speak, but then we must proceed.

[Chris Grayling]

It is important to say that it is not always fair or wise to cut sentences short, because if the hon. Lady had listened to what I said she would have heard, “on zero-rating”.

Points of Order

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The Leader of the House is entitled to rise to his feet, but he is not obliged to do so. I think that it would be fair to say that these matters, as far as I can discern, are under consideration. Conclusions have not been reached. The detail is not yet known. It will be decided in due course. The request is that the House be informed first. I think that it would be a reasonable supposition that if an important part of the subject matter is the prerogatives of the House of Commons, it will occur to the Leader of the House first to notify the House of Commons of the particulars.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

I think, judging by the gentle nod of assent from the Leader of the House, from which the Government Chief Whip does not demur, that that is indeed, at any rate now, the Government’s intention. [Interruption.]

[Chris Grayling]

And it is what I said in my statement.

[Mr Speaker]

And it is what the Leader of the House said in his statement. [Interruption.] Order.

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I think that I can make a judgment about the handling of matters. [Interruption.] Order. It is certainly open to the Leader of the House to come to the Dispatch Box, but he is not obliged to do so. I think that it is clear that we will get the details and that they will be communicated first to the House.

[Chris Grayling]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

We will take that as a yes, and I think that the Hansard writers will have recorded that. We will leave it there for now, although I always appreciate the attempts by the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) at what might be called diplomacy.

Commons Financial Privilege

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Leader of the House if he will make a statement on the Government’s review of the financial privilege of the Commons under Lord Strathclyde.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

On Monday, the House of Lords rejected a financial measure that had been approved three times by the elected House of Commons. We are clear that that raises constitutional issues that need to be examined carefully. We need to ensure—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise for interrupting the Leader of the House. This is a very serious matter and it would be seemly if colleagues who are leaving the Chamber did so quickly and quietly and if others inclined to conduct private conversations decided to do so outside the Chamber. There is a very important matter being treated of by the Leader of the House in response to the urgent question.

[Chris Grayling]

We need to ensure that we have arrangements in place that protect the ability of elected Governments to secure business that has the support of the elected House.

Yesterday the Government announced that we are in the process of setting up a review to examine how to protect the ability of elected Governments to secure their business in Parliament. The review will consider in particular how to secure the decisive role of the elected House of Commons in relation to its primacy on financial matters and on secondary legislation. The review will be led by Lord Strathclyde, supported by a small panel of experts.

The relationship between the Commons and the Lords is extremely important. When conventions that govern that relationship are put in doubt, it is right that we review that. Clearly, the House will be fully updated when more details of the review have been agreed.

[Chris Bryant]

It is clear that the Government intend to give the House of Lords a kicking, but they should remember, as they fashion this pretend constitutional crisis, that the vast majority of people in this country applauded the Lords on Monday, because the measure was not in the Government’s manifesto. Does the Leader of the House see no irony at all in getting a Member of the House of Lords—and, for that matter, a hereditary peer—to review the financial privilege of the House of Commons? Is this the right person for the task? After all, in 1999, Lord Strathclyde said of the convention that the House of Lords did not strike down statutory instruments:

“I declare this convention dead.”

That same day, he and the Lords voted down two Labour Government statutory instruments. Now he thinks that it is an utter disgrace to do so. Is there one rule for Tory regulations and another for Labour ones? Is he now a convert or frankly just a hypocrite?

[Chris Bryant]

I withdraw that term unreservedly, Mr Speaker; I presume that he is a convert.

Why are there no representatives of other parties or of the House of Commons on the review panel? Would it not be better for this House to conduct its own inquiry into the operation of secondary legislation? Could not the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, whose admirable Chairman is in the Chamber now, do the job far better?

Is there not a far simpler means of guaranteeing the financial privilege of the Commons? The Government should stop relying on secondary legislation and introduce properly scrutinised primary legislation as money Bills that are covered by the Parliament Act instead. In all honesty, is it not a disgrace that measures affecting 3.2 million people should be decided in a 90-minute debate with no opportunity for amendment? There is a very simple principle here: money Bills do not receive scrutiny in the Lords, so they get extra time in the House of Commons; secondary legislation does not get much time in the Commons, so it does receive consideration in the Lords.

Does the Leader of the House not realise that the Lords had the power they did on Monday only because the Government tried to sidestep scrutiny by using secondary legislation dependent on the Tax Credits Act 2002, section 66 of which specifies that changes to tax credit rates must be approved by both Houses of Parliament? As things stand, the Government rely on hundreds of Acts that have the same provision. Does the Leader of the House intend to make retrospective amendments to each and every one of those Acts, and will he use the Parliament Act to drive that through?

We have very few checks to Executive power in this country. If we do not protect our constitution, it is not worth the paper it is not written on. There is a real danger that if Parliament as a whole lets the Government of the day dismantle every check and balance, they will no longer be governing by consent—and that really would be a constitutional crisis.

[Chris Grayling]

I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman’s experience as a parliamentarian, but he will not be surprised to learn that I tend not to anticipate the outcomes of reviews before they have even started. I said a moment ago that we would publish full details of the terms of reference and the full review panel in due course, so he will have to wait to see the full detail when we bring it to this House. There is no restraint on any Committee of this House from carrying out any inquiry that it wishes to conduct, within its remit. Lastly, on primary legislation, it is a simple fact that tax credits are classified as a benefit. They cannot be included in a money Bill. You, Mr Speaker, would not certify a Bill containing a reference to tax credits as a money Bill, so I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend recall that the 2002 Act was produced by Gordon Brown precisely to keep tax credits out of a Finance Bill so that he could alter them by statutory instrument and raise them before elections without proper scrutiny? Will he confirm that the Labour and Liberal peers, having discovered that they have a large party political majority in the upper House, are using it with increasing frequency and that they have cast a vote that is totally contrary to every sensible understanding of the constitutional position for the past 100 years? Indeed, the situation is an exact replica of the Conservative peers foolishly voting against Lloyd George’s Budget.

The Lords does not vote against Budget measures. So although I welcome the advice of my noble Friend Lord Strathclyde, for whom I have enormous respect, will my right hon. Friend not delay too long before bringing forward legislation that sets out clearly what convention has previously established? If the Lords keep repeating these party political votes, it will be almost impossible to have stable government taking firm and difficult decisions for the remainder of this Parliament, when presumably they will start misbehaving with ever more frequency.

[Chris Grayling]

I share my right hon. and learned Friend’s concerns. He makes his point with his usual wisdom, and I hope very much that Lord Strathclyde will address the issues to which he refers. It is essential that these matters are dealt with. It is worth remembering that in 13 years of Labour government, the Labour party did not have a majority in the House of Lords, yet Conservative peers and others respected the conventions. It is a great shame that Labour and the Liberal Democrats clearly have no intention of respecting the conventions and will cast them out of the window, which will fundamentally change the relationship between the two Houses.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I am sure the British public are amazed and bewildered by that ermine-handbags-at-dawn spat between the Tories and the unelected Lords in this great battle of the nobles. We on the Scottish National party Benches are hoping it is a double knock-out blow.

Is it the case that the way democracy now works in the UK is that if the Government do not like what one part of the legislature does, they simply emasculate it or re-appoint it? Is this the sort of democracy we are living in? The emergence of the cronies and donors as some sort of ermined tribunes of the people is a ridiculous concept. We have great concerns about Lord Strathclyde. An unelected Tory peer—[Interruption.] Indeed, a hereditary peer is to handle this inquiry. The only comfort we take from this case is the fact that he reviewed and reported on the Scottish Tories and set recommendations in place for their progress in future. They are now at 14% in the polls.

[Chris Grayling]

I know very straightforwardly what the hon. Gentleman’s submissions will be to any review of the relationship between the House of Lords and the House of Commons. He can surely take comfort also from the fact that Lord Strathclyde is a Scot and therefore brings to this job great wisdom.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for the announcement made yesterday and assure him that the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee requires no instructions from the Government about what inquiries we will carry out, and nor does it require any prompting from the Opposition.

At our meeting yesterday, we started to cross-examine witnesses about events on Monday, and we will be looking at what Lord Strathclyde is likely to consider, but there is a simple point to make. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Parliament Act 1911 established the principle of financial privilege at a time when there was very little secondary legislation? Now that so much is done by secondary legislation, it should not be too complicated to make sure that that principle in the 1911 Act is extended to secondary legislation, to avoid such misunderstandings in the future.

[Chris Grayling]

I have no doubt that my hon. Friend and his Committee will look closely at those issues. I am not in the least bit surprised to learn that they have made a start. Most Members of the House realise that this week has marked a significant change or potential change in the relationship between the two Houses. We need to establish a firm foundation for the future. My hon. Friend and his Committee will play an active role in that. When change is necessary, I want to bring it forward as quickly and sensibly as possible, but we need to take the time to get it right and ensure that we deal with the issues for the foreseeable future.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House ensure that the review includes whether the House of Lords has the right to vote down measures introduced by a Government who said that they would not take such measures? Secondly, will the members of the review panel be paid a daily rate? If so, will it be higher than the minimum wage?

[Chris Grayling]

As I have said, we will bring forward full details of the review panel and the terms of reference in due course. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that nobody can be in any doubt that the Government won a general election in May saying that we would have to take tough decisions and cut welfare. That is what we are doing.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

Many of us in the House believe, as a point of principle, that those who make the law should be accountable to those who live under the law. Does my right hon. Friend accept that that is absolutely impossible as long as we have an appointed Chamber? How does he feel about the fact that, nowadays, only Britain and Iran have unelected clerics in our legislatures?

[Chris Grayling]

As we have learned from debates over the past few years, there are strong opinions in the House about the need for reform. Up to now, the House has chosen not to pursue the avenue of reform of the House of Lords, but it is difficult to see how, in the wake of these events, there can be no change at all to the relationship between the two Houses.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

The Lords were right and entitled to table the fatal motion and it has not created a constitutional crisis. That is a smokescreen to distract attention from the pain that would have been inflicted by tax credit cuts on 3 million working families on low incomes. If the Leader of the House wants to reform the House of Lords, I recommend that he dusts down all the hard work done in the coalition on House of Lords reform. This time, he should get the Conservative party to support those reforms rather than scupper them.

[Chris Grayling]

I am not sure how the Liberal Democrats advance their case for reform by throwing out conventions and behaving in a way that is contrary to all the workings of Parliament over the past few decades. They can by all means make the case for reform, but they should not behave in a way that is simply designed to wreck the manifesto of an elected Government.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

The House knows only too well that knee-jerk reactions leading to rapidly made legislation often result in poor law. What assurances can the Leader of the House give that such a hastily convened commission will be given reasonable time to carry out its work, and that no pressure will be brought to bear on it on the timetable? We do not want results produced in haste that we regret at our leisure.

[Chris Grayling]

One thing I said clearly yesterday was that I do not think we should do change on the hoof and rush headlong into change. Equally, we must accept that there appears to be a strategy in the House of Lords—an alliance between Labour and Liberal Democrat peers—to demolish the Government’s platform on which we were elected in May. This cannot therefore wait forever, but I accept my right hon. Friend’s point that we must do it carefully and properly.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Does the Leader of the House appreciate the irony of selecting a hereditary peer who has previously said that the convention is dead to undertake the review?

[Chris Grayling]

It is entirely sensible to pick a respected senior figure who knows the workings of government and of the House of Lords, and who will undoubtedly produce words of wisdom for all of us.

[Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

My friends on the Scottish National party Front Bench want me to mention that, from 1407—the beginning of the 15th century—the Commons was given primacy over financial matters. That was confirmed in our motion of 1678, when all matters of taxation and expenditure were to be the preserve of this House. In 1839, the Speaker of the House of Commons insisted that an amendment from the House of Lords on a financial matter must be rejected. At that date, the House of Commons would not even consider the change of a trustee of a turnpike trust if it was suggested by the House of Lords, so jealous were we of the privilege that the democratic House must have control of taxation and expenditure.

May I urge my right hon. Friend to send the clearest message to the House of Lords that, if their lordships do not obey the conventions that have governed this country for centuries, they will be forced to do so by legislation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend speaks with enormous wisdom and knowledge on these matters. He will not be surprised to remember that history was downplayed in our curriculum under the Labour Government. Parliamentary history does not appear to be top of the knowledge of Members of the other place. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have traditions and ways of working in this country that date back decades and centuries. They have been cast away this week entirely inappropriately. It would be a huge mistake for us to allow them to slip away. It is a shame that the Opposition parties appear not to respect them.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I gently ask the Leader of the House to face the House so that we all get the benefit of his words.

[Alex Salmond (Gordon) (SNP)]

As we all carefully reflect on the 15th-century precedent, could we also carefully reflect on the modern world? A Government elected on 37% of the vote and 14% in Scotland might not be expected to win every single Division in the legislature. Should the Government not accept that their position seems to be based on a sense of entitlement as opposed to an attachment to the democratic ballot box?

[Chris Grayling]

The issue has nothing to do with entitlement and no Government should ever take either House for granted, but it is not unreasonable that, when precedents and conventions have existed for handling financial matters for decades and decades, they should be respected.

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

Does the Leader of the House agree that the time has come for proper reform of the House of Lords? By “proper reform”, I mean a reformed Chamber that is fully elected.

[Chris Grayling]

From talking to colleagues around the building, I know that House of Lords reform has returned very much to the centre stage, but we face big challenges in this country and have important legislation to get through. I want to deal first with challenges in health, education, environmental matters, enterprise and the economy, but there is no doubt that reform will now be discussed much more widely in the House.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has explained why the measures were not in a Finance Bill. He seems to be confused: he seems to believe that the big bill attached to tax credits makes them a finance measure. If we follow his logic, no Bill that involves spending could go to the other place, be it on legal aid or HS2.

[Chris Grayling]

Let us be clear to the House—this is a very simple matter—that tax credits are officially categorised as a benefits matter and not a tax matter. If one puts a change to tax credits into a Finance Bill, that Bill will not necessarily be certified as a money Bill. That is the state of play and the reality of what we are dealing with. That is why the tax credits measures were not in a Finance Bill.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Has not the Leader of the House just said why the Lords were entitled to amend the statutory instrument? They did not reject it but delayed it because it clearly was not a tax measure. If it had been a tax measure, we would have put it in the Finance Bill. We are seeing a knee-jerk reaction to the House of Lords doing what it is supposed to do. I am all for a review, but let us have a proper review and take our time over it. Will my right hon. Friend reflect on that and announce more than just Lord Strathclyde heading a review?

[Chris Grayling]

It is absolutely essential that we do not rush this. We have said that there will be a panel of people working with Lord Strathclyde. Their names will be announced in due course, but I remind my hon. Friend that a statutory instrument has been rejected by the House of Lords in that way only five times in the past century. This is the first time that it has happened to a specifically budgetary measure. That is the important change.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Before we all join the Lords resistance army in a synthetic constitutional crisis, will the Leader of the House not acknowledge that the real issue is not the procedural powers of respective Houses in this Parliament, but the spending powers of hard-pressed and hard-working households in this country? In any review, will he ensure that our first priority is to get this House in order, not another?

[Chris Grayling]

I think that this House is in perfect order. It has voted for these measures five times and passed them five times.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

I frequently take schoolchildren and visitors from other democratic countries on tours of this building, and I always feel slightly awkward when explaining that the House of Lords is appointed. As my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) suggested, is it not time we had a fully elected second Chamber?

[Chris Grayling]

I know that my hon. Friend thinks that, along with a number of other Members. Certainly, as a result of Monday’s activities, that debate is likely to restart in this Parliament, having not continued in the previous one.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

Does the Leader of the House not accept that the other place has a constitutional role to provide pause to this House when it feels that we have taken a decision that is wrong and out of sync with the feelings of the country? Why should we take seriously his views on the powers of the other place, and indeed the views of Government Members, given that he is continuing to pack that House with 50-odd new peers at the same time as slashing the number of elected Members of this House by 50?

[Chris Grayling]

The simple reality is that this House has now voted for these changes five times—prior to Monday it was three times. Ultimately, it must be the elected House of Commons that has the final say on these matters, which is why the actions of the House of Lords were, in my view, unacceptable.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I welcome the Strathclyde review and the Leader of the House’s reiteration of the primacy of the elected House of Commons. The shadow Leader of the House alluded to our unwritten constitution, which is a constitution of convention. Is it not the case that the House of Lords has breached that convention and therefore, by definition, is acting in a very unconstitutional manner?

[Chris Grayling]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. In recent years I have heard many Members of the House of Lords stress the importance of convention, but on this occasion they appear to have completely ignored it, which is why we now face this issue.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Will there be any political balance on the panel, and will it be taking evidence?

[Chris Grayling]

As I said earlier, we will give more details about the panel’s composition and terms of reference shortly.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Is it not true that although changes to the House of Lords might be necessary, the last thing we want is another House of Commons?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend sets out one of the great subjects of debate: if we replace the House of Lords with something else, should it be elected? As he knows, that has been debated several times since he and I were first elected in 2001, and I suspect that it will now be debated again. The important thing, from my point of view, is to deal in the coming months with the apparent wrecking strategy that Labour and the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords appear to be taking to the platform of the elected Government, so we have to resolve these matters quickly.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

The Conservative Government keep trying to play politics with this but keep finding themselves in a hole. For a start, they did not put the tax credits policy in their manifesto, which has allowed the Lords to vote against it. Then they introduced it in a statutory instrument, which also allowed the Lords to vote against it. Now they have appointed a hereditary peer to conduct a review into the unelected House of Lords. Mr Speaker, when will the Government stop digging?

[Chris Grayling]

We have appointed a respected former Leader of the House of Lords, and a compatriot of the hon. Lady, to conduct a review, and I think that he will do an excellent job.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Yesterday the Chancellor said that the House of Lords has no mandate for tinkering with his tax credit changes, but, with 14% of the vote, it is his Government who have no mandate to introduce their vicious welfare reforms up in Scotland. After all the constitutional tinkering we have already had to introduce English votes for English laws, would not the solution to both constitutional conundrums be to abolish the House of Lords and replace it with an English Parliament?

[Chris Grayling]

The Scottish nationalists keep making that argument. Over the past few weeks, I have listened to them express fury about the introduction of EVEL because it gives them less say over matters that they say affect Scotland. But an English Parliament would give them no say, so their argument simply does not stack up.

Points of Order

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Leader of the House was absolutely right to refer earlier to the tragedy of Aberfan, the anniversary of which was yesterday, but may I gently point out to him that it took place 49 years ago, not 50? The 50th anniversary will be next year, and I hope, having heard his comments, that we will be commemorating it properly in the House at that time.

The Leader of the House also made a mistake about the Standards Committee and the Privileges Committee. This is an important matter, because several pieces of business urgently need to go to the Privileges Committee. He said that the membership of the Standards Committee and that of the Privileges Committee were the same, but that is not true. The Standards Committee is already set up, although it has just lost a member. A Conservative Member had to resign because they had not fully declared their earnings. That Committee has lay members, but the Privileges Committee does not. There is absolutely no reason why the Privileges Committee could not have been set up already, and it is the job of the Leader of the House to make sure that that happens as a matter of urgency.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I used the word “mirror”, and the point I was making was that the Standards Committee has now moved from having 10 members to having seven. The debate with the new Chairman of the Privileges Committee has been about whether we also reduce the membership of that Committee from 10 to seven. That will happen, in order to mirror the membership of the Standards Committee, which now has seven parliamentary members. The Committee will now be set up, and it clearly has some work to do.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

rose—

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

I beg to move,

That

(1) The following new Standing Orders and changes to Standing Orders be made:

“CERTIFICATION OF BILLS, CLAUSES AND SCHEDULES ETC: GENERAL

83J. Certification of bills etc. as relating exclusively to England or England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence

(1) The Speaker shall, before second reading-

(a) consider every public bill presented by a Minister of the Crown or brought from the Lords and taken up by a Minister of the Crown, and

(b) certify any such bill, or any clause or schedule of any such bill, which, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(2) A clause or schedule relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales if (disregarding any minor or consequential effects outside the area in question) it applies only to England or (as the case may be) to England and Wales.

(3) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England is within devolved legislative competence if-

(a) it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament,

(b) it would be within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales to make any corresponding provision for Wales in an Act of that Assembly, or

(c) it would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly to make any corresponding provision for Northern Ireland in an Act of that Assembly and the corresponding provision would deal with a transferred matter.

(4) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England and Wales is within devolved legislative competence if-

(a) it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament, or

(b) it would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly to make any corresponding provision for Northern Ireland in an Act of that Assembly and the corresponding provision would deal with a transferred matter.

(5) A bill-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence;

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(6) In deciding whether a bill relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, the Speaker shall treat any clause or schedule whose only effects are minor or consequential effects outside the area in question as relating exclusively to that area.

(7) In deciding whether a clause or schedule is within devolved legislative competence, the Speaker may take account of any amendments to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly which-

(a) are not in force at the time of certification, but

(b) are to come into force on a day already fixed by law,

if the Speaker considers that the clause or schedule is itself only likely to come into force on or after that day; and, for this purpose, an amendment which is in force but applies only in relation to a future period of time (or a clause or schedule which is likely to come into force but so apply) is to be treated as not being in force (or as not likely to come into force) until the start of that period (being a day already fixed by law).

(8) In deciding whether to certify a bill, clause or schedule under this order, the Speaker-

(a) may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis, and

(b) shall disregard any provision inserted by the House of Lords which, in the Speaker’s opinion, has the sole objective of ensuring that Standing Order No. 80(a) (Privilege (bills brought from the Lords)) will apply to the bill.

(9) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(10) This order shall not apply to the following bills-

(a) a bill which is certified under Standing Order No. 97(1) (Scottish Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)),

(b) a bill referred to the Welsh Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 106(1) (Welsh Grand Committee (bills)),

(c) a bill referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 113(1) (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)),

(d) a bill which falls to be considered by the select committee appointed under Standing Order No. 140 (Joint Committee on Consolidation, &c., Bills),

(e) a bill whose main purpose is to give effect to proposals contained in a report by a Law Commission,

(f) a tax law rewrite bill,

(g) a bill introduced under the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act 1945 or for confirming a provisional order.

(11) This order-

(a) shall not affect the right of every Member to vote on-

(i) the consideration of estimates, and

(ii) ways and means motions and motions for money resolutions (other than motions to which Standing Order No. 83U applies), and

(b) shall not apply to a Consolidated Fund or Appropriation Bill.

83K. Committal and recommittal of certified England only bills

(1) A bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence may only be committed to-

(a) a public bill committee (to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies), or

(b) the Legislative Grand Committee (England).

(2) A bill whose current certification by the Speaker (whether under Standing Order No. 83J or 83L) is that it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence may only be recommitted to-

(a) a public bill committee (to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies), or

(b) the Legislative Grand Committee (England).

83L. Reconsideration of certification before third reading

(1) Paragraph (2) applies in relation to every bill which-

(a) was eligible for certification under Standing Order No. 83J (whether or not the bill, or any clause or schedule of it, was so certified),

(b) has been amended since its second reading, and

(c) has completed the stages before its third reading.

(2) The Speaker shall, before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill-

(a) reconsider the bill, and

(b) certify the bill, or any clause or schedule of it, if the bill or clause or schedule, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) Paragraph (4) applies in relation to every bill which-

(a) was certified (whether in whole or in part) by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J,

(b) has been amended since its second reading, and

(c) has completed the stages before its third reading.

(4) The Speaker shall, before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill, certify any amendment made to the bill since second reading which, in the opinion of the Speaker-

(a) related to the bill so far as certified under Standing Order No. 83J,

(b) was not made by the Legislative Grand Committee (England) or a public bill committee to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies, and

(c) either-

(i) resulted in there being no certification under paragraph (2) when there would otherwise have been such a certification, or

(ii) changed the area to which a certification under paragraph (2) would otherwise have related.

(5) Any amendment certified under paragraph (4) shall be certified as relating exclusively to the area to which the certification under paragraph (2) would have related had that amendment not been made (and there shall be no certification as to devolved legislative competence).

(6) The Speaker shall announce any decision under paragraph (2) or (4) to the House.

(7) The Speaker shall, wherever possible, announce the Speaker’s decisions under paragraph (2) or (4) immediately after the conclusion of proceedings on the previous stage of the bill.

(8) Paragraphs (2) to (8) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of certification of bills, clauses, schedules and amendments under this order as they apply for the purposes of certification of bills, clauses and schedules under that order.

83M. Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions

(1) Paragraphs (2) and (3) apply where-

(a) a bill, or clauses or schedules of a bill, have been certified under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence, and the bill has completed the stages before its third reading without having been amended,

(b) a bill or clauses or schedules of a bill have been certified under Standing Order No. 83L(2) as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence, or

(c) amendments have been certified under Standing Order No. 83L(4) as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales.

(2) A Consent Motion which gives consent to the bill, clauses or schedules or amendments must be passed by the legislative grand committee for the area to which the certification relates before a motion may be made for the third reading of the bill.

(3) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move a Consent Motion, the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the motion.

(4) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move both a Consent Motion which is to be passed by the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) and a Consent Motion which is to be passed by the Legislative Grand Committee (England)-

(a) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) to consider the motion for that committee,

(b) on moving that motion, the Minister shall also inform the committee of the terms of the motion to be moved in the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(c) any debate in the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) may also relate to the motion for the Legislative Grand Committee (England), and

(d) on conclusion of proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales)-

(i) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(ii) a Minister of the Crown shall forthwith move the motion for that committee, and

(iii) proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall be brought to a conclusion forthwith.

(5) Standing Orders Nos. 83E (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration and up to and including third reading) and 83I (Programme orders: supplementary provisions) shall apply for the purpose of bringing proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (4)(d)(iii) above (whether or not those proceedings are subject to a programme order) as they apply for the purpose of bringing proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with a programme order.

(6) On the conclusion of proceedings on a Consent Motion (or, in a case falling within paragraph (4), the conclusion of proceedings on the second Consent Motion), the chair shall report the decision of the committee (or, as the case may be, the decisions of the committees) to the House.

(7) Subject to paragraph (8), a Consent Motion shall be in the form either “That the Committee consents to the XXX Bill” or “That the Committee consents to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]…”; and in the latter case the motion shall identify the clauses or schedules or amendments in question.

(8) If a Minister of the Crown wishes to propose that a committee should not consent to certain clauses or schedules or amendments, the Consent Motion shall be in the form “That the Committee consents to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]… and does not consent to [the following certified clauses [and schedules] of the XXX Bill] [and certified amendments made by the House to the XXX Bill]…”; and in any such case the motion shall identify the clauses or schedules or amendments in question.

(9) A Consent Motion may only be moved by a Minister of the Crown and may be moved without notice.

(10) Proceedings under this order may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption.

83N. Reconsideration of bills so far as there is absence of consent

(1) Where a legislative grand committee decides on a Consent Motion under Standing Order No. 83M to withhold consent to a bill or any clause or schedule of a bill or any amendment-

(a) the bill shall be set down for reconsideration unless a Minister of the Crown moves a motion for the bill to be reconsidered (and any such motion may be made without notice, the question on any such motion shall be put forthwith and, if the motion is passed, the House shall proceed forthwith to reconsideration), and

(b) any order for the third reading of the bill shall be discharged.

(2) Reconsideration of the bill shall be for the sole purpose of considering amendments to the bill to resolve matters in dispute as a result of the withholding of consent.

(3) Paragraphs (2) and (4) to (8) of Standing Order No. 83L, and Standing Order No. 83M, shall apply following reconsideration of a bill in relation to the bill so far as reconsidered as they apply in relation to a bill; but as if-

(a) in Standing Order No. 83L(4)-

(i) the reference to any amendment since second reading were a reference to any amendment made on reconsideration, and

(ii) sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) were omitted, and

(b) in the case of any matter, there were a deemed certification in relation to the area or areas to which any relevant previous certification under Standing Order No. 83L(2) or (4) related if there would not otherwise be a certification in relation to that area or areas.

(4) If, following reconsideration of a bill and the steps taken by virtue of paragraph (3), a legislative grand committee withholds consent to the whole bill (whether or not amended on reconsideration), the bill may not be given a third reading and shall not pass.

(5) Paragraph (6) applies if, following reconsideration of a bill and the steps taken by virtue of paragraph (3), a legislative grand committee withholds consent to-

(a) any clause or schedule of the bill (whether or not amended on reconsideration), or

(b) any amendment to the bill, but does not withhold consent to the whole bill.

(6) The bill shall be amended so as to remove any provisions of the bill which are not agreed by the House and any relevant legislative grand committee; and it is the bill as so amended which proceeds to its next stage.

(7) A Minister of the Crown may move a motion for the bill as so amended to be considered again (“consequential consideration”); and such a motion may be made without notice and the question on any such motion shall be put forthwith.

(8) If the motion is passed, the House shall proceed forthwith to consequential consideration of the bill as so amended; and any order for the third reading of the bill shall be discharged.

(9) Consequential consideration of the bill as so amended shall be for the sole purpose of considering minor or technical amendments in consequence of the removal of provisions under paragraph (6).

(10) Proceedings on reconsideration or consequential consideration, or a motion for reconsideration or consequential consideration, may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption.

(11) References in the standing orders of this House to consideration of a bill on report shall, so far as relevant and subject to paragraph (12), include reconsideration or consequential consideration of a bill under this order.

(12) In its application by virtue of paragraph (11), Standing Order No. 72 (Consideration of bill as amended in committee of the whole House) has effect as if the words “, as amended in a committee of the whole House,” were omitted.

83O. Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages

(1) The Speaker shall consider any motion relating to a Lords amendment to a bill or to any other message from the Lords in respect of a bill.

(2) The Speaker shall certify the motion if, in the Speaker’s opinion, it-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) a motion relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if it or any provision of it-

(a) relates to a Lords amendment, or an item in another message, which would, if agreed, result in-

(i) a clause or schedule as amended which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence,

(ii) a new or unamended clause or schedule which so relates and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(iii) the omission of a clause or schedule which so relates and is within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) contains proposals which would, if agreed, so result.

(4) The Speaker shall also certify the motion if, in the Speaker’s opinion, it or any provision of it-

(a) relates to a Lords amendment, or an item in another message, which would, if agreed, result in a clause or schedule, which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence, ceasing to so relate or to be within devolved legislative competence, or

(b) contains proposals which, if agreed, would so result.

(5) Any motion certified under paragraph (4) shall be certified as relating exclusively to the area to which the clause or schedule relates (and there shall be no certification as to devolved legislative competence).

(6) The same motion may be certified in relation to different areas under paragraphs (2) and (4) or either of them.

(7) If a division is held on a motion certified under this order, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in the case of a motion certified in relation to England, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in the case of a motion certified in relation to England and Wales, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(c) in the case of a motion certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, vote in support of the motion.

(8) The Speaker shall, in selecting motions relating to Lords amendments or other messages, have regard to the extent to which such motions are drafted so that they can be certified under this order by virtue of every provision of them meeting the test in paragraph (3)(a) or (b) or (4)(a) or (b).

(9) If a motion relating to a Lords amendment or other message is disagreed to under this order because one of the groups voting in the division has not voted in support of it while another has, the decision of the House shall be-

(a) in the case of a motion to disagree (or agree) to a Lords amendment or an item in another message, to disagree with it, and

(b) in any other case, such decision as would have the effect of leaving the bill so far as it relates to that matter in the same position as it was before the Lords amendment or other message was received from the Lords.

(10) The Speaker shall announce any decision under paragraph (2) or (4) to the House.

(11) This order does not apply in relation to-

(a) any motion relating to a bill which was not eligible for certification under Standing Order No. 83J, and

(b) any of the following motions-

(i) any ways and means motion or motion for a money resolution,

(ii) any programme motion,

(iii) any order of consideration motion,

(iv) any motion of, or relating to, the Reasons Committee, and

(v) any other motion of a similar kind to a motion falling within any of paragraphs (i) to (iv).

(12) In this order-

(a) references to motions are to be read as including, so far as relevant, references to amendments to Lords amendments and references to amendments to the bill, and

(b) the reference in paragraph (3)(a)(i) to clauses or schedules as amended includes, in particular, a reference to clauses or schedules which would be amended by virtue of their territorial application being modified otherwise than in the clauses or schedules themselves.

(13) Paragraphs (2) to (4), (7) and (8)(a) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of deciding under this order whether clauses or schedules relate exclusively to England or to England and Wales and are within devolved legislative competence as they apply for the purposes of the certification of clauses or schedules under that order; and, in the case of a bill which relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, paragraph (6) of that order also applies for the purpose of deciding under this order whether clauses or schedules so relate.

CERTIFICATION OF INSTRUMENTS AND MOTIONS: GENERAL

83P. Certification of instruments

(1) The Speaker shall-

(a) consider every instrument to which this order applies, and

(b) certify any such instrument which, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

(2) An instrument-

(a) relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England and is within devolved legislative competence;

(b) relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence.

(3) Paragraphs (2) to (4), (6) and (7) of Standing Order No. 83J apply for the purposes of this order; and as so applied those paragraphs have effect as if-

(a) references to a bill were to an instrument, and

(b) references to a clause or schedule were to a provision of an instrument.

(4) In deciding whether to certify an instrument under this order the Speaker may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis.

(5) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(6) This order applies to any instrument (whether or not in draft) upon which proceedings may be taken in pursuance of an Act of Parliament where the instrument-

(a) meets any of conditions A to C, and

(b) is not a report within paragraph (1)(a) to (c) of Standing Order No. 83R.

(7) Condition A is that the instrument-

(a) stands referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee pursuant to paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees), or

(b) does not stand so referred because sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph applies to it.

(8) Condition B is that a member has given notice of a motion of the kind mentioned in paragraph (4)(a) of Standing Order No. 118 in relation to the instrument and the instrument-

(a) stands referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee, or

(b) has been set down for consideration in the Chamber on a particular day.

(9) Condition C is that the Regulatory Reform Committee has made a recommendation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2) of Standing Order No. 18 (Consideration of draft legislative reform orders etc.) in relation to the instrument.

83Q. Deciding the question on motions relating to certified instruments

(1) This order applies to the following motions-

(a) a motion to approve a certified instrument;

(b) a motion of the kind mentioned in paragraph (4)(a) of Standing Order No. 118 in relation to a certified instrument;

(c) a motion to disagree with a report of the Regulatory Reform Committee that contains a recommendation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 18 in relation to a certified instrument;

(d) an amendment to a motion within sub-paragraph (a) or (b).

(2) If a division is held on a motion to which this order applies, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(3) In this order-

(a) “a certified instrument” means an instrument which has been certified under Standing Order No. 83P as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales;

(b) “qualifying constituencies” means constituencies in the part of the United Kingdom to which the instrument has been certified as relating exclusively.

83R. Deciding the question on certain other motions

(1) This order applies to the following motions-

(a) a motion to approve-

(i) a report which has been laid before the House under paragraph 5 of Schedule 7B to the Local Government Finance Act 1988 (local government finance report) and which contains a determination under section 78 of that Act (revenue support grant), or

(ii) a report which has been laid before the House under section 84A of that Act (revenue support grant: amending report);

(b) a motion to approve a report which has been laid before the House under section 52ZD of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 (referendums relating to council tax increases: principles);

(c) a motion to approve a report which has been laid before the House under section 46 of the Police Act 1996 (police grant);

(d) a motion for a resolution under section 26(2)(b)(ii) of the Higher Education Act 2004 (student fees);

(e) an amendment to a motion within sub-paragraph (d).

(2) If a division is held on a motion to which this order applies, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(3) In this order “qualifying constituencies” means-

(a) in the case of a motion within paragraph (1)(a), (b), (d) or (e), constituencies in England;

(b) in the case of a motion within paragraph (1)(c), constituencies in England or Wales.

CERTIFICATION OF FINANCE BILLS, INSTRUMENTS AND MOTIONS

83S. Modification of Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83N in their application to Finance Bills

(1) In their application in relation to a bill within paragraph (2), Standing Orders Nos. 83J to 83N shall have effect with the modifications in paragraphs (3) to (5).

(2) A bill is within this paragraph if-

(a) it is a Finance Bill, or

(b) it is a bill which, before second reading, only contained provision which would be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill (or would be if the provision was to take effect in the current financial year).

(3) In Standing Order No. 83J-

(a) in paragraph (1)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) in paragraph (2) after “Wales” (in both places) insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(c) after paragraph (4) insert-

“(4A) A clause or schedule which relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland is within devolved legislative competence if it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament.”;

(d) in paragraph (5) after sub-paragraph (b) insert “;

(c) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence if every clause and every schedule of it relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence”;

(e) in paragraph (6) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”; and

(f) after paragraph (11) insert-

“(12) The test in paragraph (3)(a), (4)(a) or (4A) is also met if the clause or schedule concerned sets a rate of income tax in respect of any kind of income for a person who is resident in the United Kingdom for tax purposes but is not a Scottish taxpayer where the corresponding rate for a Scottish taxpayer may be set by a resolution of the Scottish Parliament under Chapter 2 of Part 4A of the Scotland Act 1998 (and the reference in paragraph (7) to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament includes a reference to that Chapter)”.

(4) In Standing Order No. 83L, in paragraph (2)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”.

(5) In Standing Order No. 83M-

(a) in paragraph (1) after “Wales” (in each place) insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) for paragraph (4) substitute-

“(4) If a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move Consent Motions which are to be passed by more than one legislative grand committee-

(a) the order in which the Consent Motions are to be considered is:

(i) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland),

(ii) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales), and

(iii) any motion to be considered by the Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(b) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the first Consent Motion,

(c) on moving that motion, the Minister shall also inform the committee of the terms of any other Consent Motion to be moved in any other legislative grand committee,

(d) any debate in the first legislative grand committee may also relate to any other Consent Motion to be moved in any other legislative grand committee,

(e) on conclusion of proceedings in the first legislative grand committee-

(i) the House shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee which is to consider the next Consent Motion,

(ii) a Minister of the Crown shall forthwith move that motion, and

(iii) proceedings in the second legislative grand committee shall be brought to a conclusion forthwith, and

(f) on conclusion of proceedings in the second legislative grand committee, sub-paragraphs (e)(i) to (iii) shall apply in relation to any third Consent Motion and a third legislative grand committee as they apply in relation to the second Consent Motion and the second legislative grand committee.”;

(c) in paragraph (5) for “(4)(d)(iii)” substitute “(4)(e)(iii) and (f)”; and

(d) in paragraph (6) for “second Consent Motion” substitute “Consent Motions”.

83T. Modification of Standing Orders Nos. 83P and 83Q in their application to financial instruments

(1) In their application in relation to a financial instrument, Standing Orders Nos. 83P and 83Q shall have effect with the following modifications.

(2) In Standing Order No. 83P-

(a) in paragraph (1)(b)(i) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”;

(b) in paragraph (2) after sub-paragraph (b) insert “;

(c) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence if every provision of it relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is within devolved legislative competence”; and

(c) in paragraph (3) for the words from the beginning to “apply” substitute “Paragraphs (2) to (4A), (6), (7) and (12) of Standing Order No. 83J (as modified by Standing Order No. 83S(3))”.

(3) In Standing Order 83Q(3)(a) after “Wales” insert “or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland”.

(4) For the purposes of this order an instrument is a “financial instrument” if it is made or proposed to be made in exercise of powers conferred by (and only by)-

(a) an Act which resulted from a Finance Bill;

(b) a provision of an Act which would have been within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill.

83U. Certification of motions upon which a Finance Bill is to be brought in which would authorise provision relating exclusively to England, to England and Wales or to England, Wales and Northern Ireland

(1) This order applies to any founding motion which, if passed, would-

(a) authorise a bill to include provision which would be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill, or

(b) authorise a Finance Bill to include provision which would not be within the ordinary scope of a Finance Bill.

(2) The Speaker shall-

(a) consider every motion to which this order applies, and

(b) certify any such motion which, in the Speaker’s opinion, falls within paragraph (3), (4) or (5).

(3) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(4) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England and Wales, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(5) A motion falls within this paragraph if it would, if passed, only authorise a bill to include provision which-

(a) relates exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and

(b) is within devolved legislative competence.

(6) In deciding whether to certify under this order a motion to which this order applies, the Speaker may consult two members of the Panel of Chairs who are appointed for this purpose by the Committee of Selection on a session by session basis.

(7) The Speaker shall announce any decision under this order to the House.

(8) Paragraphs (2) to (4A), (7) and (12) of Standing Order No. 83J (as modified by Standing Order No. 83S(3)) apply for the purposes of this order; and as so applied those paragraphs have effect as if references to a clause or schedule were to a provision.

(9) In paragraph (1) “founding motion” means a motion upon which a bill is to be brought in.

83V. Deciding the question on motions certified under Standing Order No. 83U

(1) If a division is held on a motion which has been certified under Standing Order No. 83U, the motion shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) a majority of Members, and

(b) a majority of Members representing qualifying constituencies,

vote in support of the motion.

(2) In this order “qualifying constituencies” means-

(a) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 83U, constituencies in England;

(b) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (4) of that standing order, constituencies in England or Wales;

(c) in a case where the motion concerned was certified as falling within paragraph (5) of that standing order, constituencies in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

LEGISLATIVE GRAND COMMITTEES

83W. Legislative Grand Committees

(1) There shall be-

(a) a Legislative Grand Committee (England),

(b) a Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales), and

(c) a Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland).

(2) The Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall consist of all Members representing constituencies in England.

(3) The Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) shall consist of all Members representing constituencies in England and all Members representing constituencies in Wales.

(4) The Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) shall consist of-

(a) all Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) all Members representing constituencies in Wales, and

(c) all Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland.

(5) A Deputy Speaker or a member of the Panel of Chairs may chair a legislative grand committee.

(6) The functions of the Legislative Grand Committee (England) shall be-

(a) to consider any bills committed or recommitted to the committee in accordance with Standing Order No. 83K, and

(b) to consider any Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M which relate to the committee.

(7) The functions of the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) and the Legislative Grand Committee (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) are to consider any Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M which relate to them.

(8) Any Member who is not a member of a legislative grand committee may take part in the deliberations of the committee but shall not vote or make any motion or move any amendment.

83X. Legislative Grand Committees: supplementary

(1) The procedure of this House applicable to a committee of the whole House shall, so far as relevant, be applicable to a legislative grand committee.

(2) Accordingly, references in the standing orders of this House to a committee of the whole House or to the House in committee, or similar references, shall be read as references to the relevant legislative grand committee.

(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee).”

In Standing Order No. 12 (House not to sit on certain Fridays), in line 20, after “notices of” insert “Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M (Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions) and of”.

In Standing Order No. 51 (Ways and means motions), in line 12, after “forthwith” insert “or, in the case of a motion to which Standing Order No. 83U applies, forthwith upon the announcement of the Speaker's decision with respect to the motion under that standing order”.

After Standing Order No. 63(4) (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order) insert-

“(5) In the case of a bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence-

(a) committal under this order is subject to Standing Order No. 83K (Committal and recommittal of certified England only bills), and

(b) committal under this order to a public bill committee is accordingly to a public bill committee to which Standing Order No. 86(2)(iv) (Nomination of general committees) applies.

(6) Nothing in this order enables a bill to be committed to any legislative grand committee other than to the Legislative Grand Committee (England) in accordance with Standing Order No. 83K.”

In Standing Order No. 64 (Notices of amendments, &c., to bills), in line 2, after “schedules” insert “, of Consent Motions under Standing Order No. 83M (Consent Motions for certified England only or England and Wales only provisions)”.

In Standing Order No. 73 (Report of bills committed to public bill committees), in line 4, after “bill committee” insert “or the Legislative Grand Committee (England)”.

In Standing Order No. 83A (Programme motions), in line 30, after “and” insert “up to and including”.

In Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees)-

(a) in line 2, after “reading” insert “or in legislative grand committee or on reconsideration or consequential consideration”, and

(b) in line 14, after “reading” insert “or in legislative grand committee or on reconsideration or consequential consideration”.

In Standing Order No. 83C (Programming sub-committees)-

(a) in line 22, after “and” insert “up to and including”,

(b) in line 62, after “and” insert “up to and including”, and

(c) in line 75, after “and” insert “up to and including”.

In Standing Order No. 83D (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings in public bill committee or in committee of the whole House)-

(a) in the title, after “House” insert “etc.”, and

(b) in line 2, after “bill committee” insert “, in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) when exercising functions under Standing Order No. 83W(6)(a) (Legislative Grand Committees)”.

In Standing Order No. 83E (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration or third reading)-

(a) in the title for “or” substitute “and up to and including”,

(b) in line 2, after “and” insert “up to and including”, and

(c) in line 22, at end, insert-

“(5) In the application of this order to proceedings on a Consent Motion in legislative grand committee, the references to the Speaker in paragraph (2) are to be read as references to the Chairman of Ways and Means or either Deputy Chairman.”

After Standing Order No. 83F(7) (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments), at the end of line 35, insert-

“(8) Where a single question would be put under paragraph (3)(a), (4)(a) or (7) in circumstances where some or all of the amendments concerned are certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages) in relation to a particular part or parts of the United Kingdom, the Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is in relation to England,

(b) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is in relation to England and Wales,

(c) a single question on any amendments for which the certification is both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, and

(d) a single question on any amendments for which there is no certification.

(9) Where a single question would be put under paragraph (6) in circumstances where, if there were (or are) separate motions to agree in relation to each of the remaining Lords amendments, some or all of the motions would be (or are) certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages), the Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments,

(b) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) amendments certified in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments,

(c) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments, and

(d) in the case of any remaining Lords amendments for which there would be (or are) motions which would not be (or are not) certified, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those amendments.

(10) If a division is held on a question put under paragraph (8) or (9), the amendments shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (b) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales,

(c) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(d) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph, a majority of Members,

vote in support of them.

(11) Paragraph (9) of Standing Order No. 83O shall apply to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (10) above on a question as it applies in relation to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (7) of that order on a motion.”

In Standing Order No. 83G (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the Lords)-

(a) in line 12, after “shall” insert “, subject to paragraphs (6) and (7),”, and

(b) at the end of line 14 insert-

“(6) Paragraph (7) applies where, if there were (or are) separate motions to agree in relation to each of the remaining Lords proposals, some or all of the motions would be (or are) certified under Standing Order No. 83O (Consideration of certified motions or amendments relating to Lords Amendments or other messages).

(7) The Speaker shall put forthwith-

(a) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals,

(b) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals,

(c) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions certified both in relation to England and in relation to England and Wales, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals, and

(d) in the case of any remaining Lords proposals for which there would be (or are) motions which would not be (or are not) certified, the question that this House agrees with the Lords in those proposals.

(8) If a division is held on a question put under paragraph (7), the proposals shall be agreed to only if, of those voting in the division-

(a) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (a) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England,

(b) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (b) of that paragraph, a majority of Members and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales,

(c) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph, a majority of Members, a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and a majority of Members representing constituencies in England and Wales, and

(d) in a case falling within sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph, a majority of Members,

vote in support of them.

(9) Paragraph (9) of Standing Order No. 83O shall apply to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (8) above on a question as it applies in relation to a decision made by virtue of paragraph (7) of that order on a motion.”

In Standing Order No. 83I (Programme orders: supplementary provisions), in line 2, after second “House” insert “or in legislative grand committee”.

In Standing Order No. 86 (Nomination of general committees), in line 33, at end insert-

“(iv) for the consideration of any bill certified by the Speaker under Standing Order No. 83J (or, in the case of recommittal after recertification, Standing Order No. 83L) as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence, the Committee of Selection, in nominating Members to a public bill committee, shall have regard to the composition of that part of the House consisting of Members representing constituencies in England; and no Member who does not represent a constituency in England shall be nominated to such a committee”; and

(2) The new Standing Orders, and the changes to Standing Orders, made by this order do not apply in relation to-

(a) any bills which have had a Second Reading in this House on or before the day on which this order is made,

(b) any bills introduced in the previous Parliament which have been carried over into this Parliament,

(c) any instruments or draft instruments laid on or before the day on which this order is made, and

(d) any motions agreed to on or before that day.

This is the third time that the proposals have been debated by the House, and the second occasion for debate that I promised back in July. I have endeavoured throughout this process to listen to the views expressed by hon. Members about the way all this is conducted and to respond as positively as possible, notwithstanding the timetable commitments in our manifesto.

I should add that the reason we have timetabled votes for 4 pm is that I was aware there were likely to be a number of Divisions, and I was particularly concerned to ensure that Members from constituencies a little further away could get away to catch planes and trains to get back to their constituencies this evening.

I will endeavour to keep my remarks relatively short so that all Members who want to speak can do so, and I hope other Front Benchers will do the same. I want to start by setting out briefly why we are pursuing this strategy. If Members will forgive me, I will do that before I take interventions. I will obviously be happy to take interventions a little later.

I am a staunch Unionist. I support the devolution of powers to the different parts of the United Kingdom. I want the United Kingdom to remain secure and intact. I was delighted when the Scottish people voted clearly to stay in the United Kingdom. The whole is greater than the sum of our parts. Indeed, I have great affection for all the countries of the United Kingdom, so I cheered when Wales and Northern Ireland secured their places in Euro 2016 and was dismayed last Sunday when Scotland was so narrowly pipped at the post at Twickenham. I will always cheer the home nations in competition.

I have, however, listened with concern to some in England who have expressed less enthusiasm than me about the future of the UK. I am sure I am not alone in having experienced strong views from an English perspective about the nature and extent of devolution, and the sense that somehow the other parts of the United Kingdom are getting something that the English are not. It is clearly not in the interests of the Union for us to see mounting resentment in any part of the United Kingdom. That is why I looked carefully at the polling evidence that suggests a majority of Scots think the approach we are taking is fair.

To all of those in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland who share my concern for the future of the Union, I say this: it cannot be in the interests of any of us to see the English people becoming cynical about the Union and even perhaps wishing for its end. That is why I think these proposals will help to secure what most reasonable people would think was a fair settlement across the United Kingdom.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give way?

[Chris Grayling]

I will give way in a while, but I will just make some progress before I do.

When the Prime Minister asked me to take over dealing with the issue of English votes for English laws—I should emphasise that it is sometimes English and Welsh votes for English and Welsh laws—I looked very hard at the proposals I inherited from my predecessor. I found what I believe to be a sensible set of proposals, which fit well with the Government’s strategy on devolution. I found a package that, taken overall, should strengthen the Union through giving greater devolution to all parts of the United Kingdom—the Scotland Bill and the draft Wales Bill, which has been published in the past few days. I found a package that creates fairer Parliaments and fairer Assemblies, and that gives the English a strong voice on English matters without—I emphasise, without—excluding MPs from other parts of the United Kingdom from participation in this House.

[Andrew Gwynne]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Chris Grayling]

I will give way in a moment. Let me just make this point.

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We will have a calm and sensible debate this afternoon, and I hope that tempers will now be kept under control.

[Chris Grayling]

I did say that I would give way in a moment but just wanted to set out some remarks first; that was all.

This has been one of the frustrations of the debate on this issue. Anyone who reads these proposals will know full well that they do not exclude any Member of Parliament from any vote in this Chamber in which they can currently take part. It is simply not the case. Yet I keep hearing about MPs being excluded. That will simply not happen. I hope we will not hear that error repeated in today’s debate.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way on that point. Will he explain why, for example, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who has fought four elections in north-east Wales and lost every one—he has never won an election—but sits in another place, will have rights over my constituents in moving motions on an amendment, whereas I—I have won six elections to this place—will not have the same rights?

[Chris Grayling]

The answer to that question is that in 1997, in the wake of the general election, the right hon. Gentleman’s party passed a devolution package meaning that, on issues such as health and education, he had no right to vote on issues affecting his constituents, but that people sitting in the Assembly did. Members of the House of Lords can vote on English matters, but it is of course for the Assembly in Cardiff to vote on matters affecting his constituents in areas such as health, education and transport.

[Andrew Gwynne]

If the Leader of the House does not think it is unfair for Lord Thomas of Gresford to be able make a judgment on legislation on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) cannot make a judgment, what about Lord Roberts of Llandudno, who has fought five general elections for the Liberal Democrats and lost all five, but will be able to make laws on which Welsh MPs cannot have a say?

[Chris Grayling]

The irony of this, as I keep saying, is that both the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)will continue to be able to vote on matters relating to health, education and other issues in relation to the constituencies of Government Members, with the exception of those who represent Wales and Scotland, whereas they cannot vote on those issues in relation to their own constituencies. That is the point of the devolution settlement that Labour set up.

[Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House reflect on the abbreviation for this legislation, which seems to have been boiled down to EVEL? Will he reflect on changing it to something more appropriate, such as laws only votable in England? The House could then could vote for LOVE, not EVEL.

[Chris Grayling]

I cannot confess to being the greatest fan of the acronym, but, sadly, that had been set before I came along. I rather like my hon. Friend’s alternative. Certainly, as I always say to my friends in the Scottish National party in this House, we may disagree violently about the future of our Union and we may disagree on a whole range matters, but I value our debates and their presence in the House. We will continue to have a lively time, but I hope also a friendly time, working together.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

I was shocked to hear on Radio Scotland this morning, across my porridge, a senior member of the Secretary of State for Scotland’s team criticising the involvement of SNP Members in the debate on assisted dying. He picked out those who voted and particularly those who spoke. I understand that there are Members in the Chamber who feared we would come down with claymores to smash up the furniture, but when we speak up for Scotland in Committees and in debates, I and my colleagues do our best to be constructive and professional. As I was the only SNP Member who spoke in that debate, I was very upset and hurt to hear that said. I have to say that if someone thinks the introduction of assisted dying here would have no impact in Scotland, that shows the difficulty of picking the Bills from which we should be excluded.

[Chris Grayling]

That is precisely why I am not proposing that the hon. Lady should be excluded from any debate or vote that she may currently take part in.

[Dr Whitford]

It was a senior member of the Secretary of State’s team.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I say to the hon. Lady today, as Leader of the House, that I do not want her to be excluded from any debate or vote that she may currently take part in on the Floor of this House. Nothing in the proposals will make that happen. As I keep saying to the SNP’s shadow Leader of the House, I would not take a step that prevented us, in the rare moment when it might happen, from walking through the Division Lobby together, perhaps because we had all come to the view that some of the views of the Labour party were beyond the pale. There are quite a few these days that look like they might be just that.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Grayling]

I will take a couple more interventions and then make some progress.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

When my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and I campaigned for a no vote in Wales, we warned that this would happen. Does my right hon. Friend agree that these proposals are the only fair way to move matters forward?

[Chris Grayling]

I rather agree. It is simply not tenable for us to say that devolution for Wales is good, devolution for Scotland is good and devolution for Northern Ireland is good, but that the English should have no powers at all. All we are saying is, should a future United Kingdom Parliament, or indeed this one, seek to impose something on the English that the English do not want for their constituencies, when it is a matter purely for England, it is surely not unreasonable that they should grant their consent before it happens. We are using the same principle of a legislative consent motion that applies in the devolution settlements.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Grayling]

I will take one more intervention before I make a bit of progress, and then I will take a couple more.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Leader of the House confirm that these changes to Standing Orders make it practically impossible for any Conservative Welsh Member of Parliament to be appointed a Minister of the Crown in any area where the jurisdiction is devolved?

[Chris Grayling]

No, I do not accept that at all. Indeed, it has already happened. The former Member of Parliament, John Reid, was Health Secretary while representing a Scottish constituency over which he had no jurisdiction in health matters. I happen to believe that we want the best people in this House to do the jobs. Nothing in the proposals will prevent that.

I will make a few points about the Procedure Committee and then take more interventions. I recognise that this is a change to the workings of the House. I have therefore sought to ensure that the views of the House about the process are taken into account. I have given evidence to the Procedure Committee and the Scottish Affairs Committee. I am grateful to the members of both Committees for their work. I have met representatives of the parties across the House and many individual Members over the past few weeks. I listened to the comments that were made earlier in the summer and provided extra time for debate. I extended the timeframe beyond the original 100-day commitment. I also ensured that this debate took place after the Procedure Committee had completed its work.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way on that point?

[Chris Grayling]

I will just make some points about the Procedure Committee’s recommendations, then I will happily take my hon. Friend’s intervention. I thank him and other members of the Procedure Committee for the work that they have done since July. The interim advice they gave me in September, which was published this week, contained some valuable thoughts. I have made amendments to the proposed Standing Orders to take into account many of their recommendations.

I have accepted the Procedure Committee’s proposal to give Mr Speaker discretion over whether to give his reasons for decisions during the trial period. I have accepted its proposal to allow the Speaker to appoint two senior Members to assist him in the task. I have accepted that it should be set out formally in Standing Orders that Members who represent constituencies other than those in England and Wales should, subject to the decision of the Chair, be able to take part in debates in the Legislative Grand Committee stage, should they choose to do so. I have accepted its proposal to strengthen the guidance notes to make it easier for all Members to work with the new process.

The Procedure Committee made a point about trials and pilots. In practice, we are embarking on the kind of trial process that it asked for in the report. My estimate, subject to confirmation through the new certification process, is that the change will affect three or four Bills in the next few months, as well as statutory instruments, before we get to the review that I have committed to undertaking. We will effectively have a trial period to road test the proposals and will then review them in discussion with the different Committees of the House.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I am really grateful to my right hon. Friend for the careful way in which he has listened to our representations. He is a model Minister in that respect. He knows that I have raised on many occasions the problem of Barnett consequentials. It might be argued in Scotland that its Members do not have exactly the same voting rights and that that affects spending in Scotland because of the Barnett formula. As part of the piloting process, will he undertake to review that matter and report back to the House, so that if there are Barnett consequentials, we can think again about that point?

[Chris Grayling]

I have looked carefully at that issue, as my hon. Friend knows. I have not identified measures outside the estimates process that create a Barnett consequential. I have been very clear in the proposed changes to Standing Orders that the estimates process remains outside the proposals. I have asked officials to continue to monitor this matter over the period leading up to the review and to produce information that can be presented to the House in due course. I give my hon. Friend and the House a commitment that if we identify a problem in this area, I will return to it as part of the review.

I intend this to be a process of development, rather than a one-off. The House will undoubtedly take decisions over the next 12 months about how we want to modify the system to make it work. That is right and proper with a new approach. I give my hon. Friend an absolute commitment that that information will be provided to the House ahead of the review.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am very grateful for all the things the Leader of the House has said about the idea that this should be a pilot that we should engage in for a period and then review. We tabled amendment (e), which would mean that the changes to Standing Orders would be in place until the end of the parliamentary Session—that is to say, until next May. That seems perfectly in line with what the Procedure Committee said. It would provide the opportunity, as the Leader of the House has just said, to review the operation of four or five Bills and several statutory instruments. If the Government then wanted to come forward with another set of measures, whether they were identical measures because everybody thought that they were working wonderfully or different measures, they would be able to do so. Would that not be a sensible way to proceed that would allow him to take the whole House with him?

[Chris Grayling]

I studied the hon. Gentleman’s amendment carefully. There are two problems with it, or two reasons why our approach is right. First, it prejudges the length of the Session. We have not announced the length of the Session. Opposition Members will remember that the first Session of the last Parliament was two years long. Therefore, in some circumstances, his proposal would extend the trial period rather than reduce it. We do not know the date of the end of the Session, so it is difficult to commit to a pilot of that length.

Secondly, if the Session does finish next spring, we will not even, in my judgment, be able to test to the level recommended by the Procedure Committee, because not enough Bills to which these procedures apply would have been laid before the House. I understand the point the hon. Gentleman is making but, with respect, I think the approach we have taken is better and I intend to stick to it.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

Is the Leader of the House aware that yesterday in the other place, Lord Butler of Brockwell described the process that he is outlining to the House as one whereby,

“We will jump over the cliff and grab a bush on the way down so that we can review our decision about whether we were right to do so”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 October 2015; Vol. 765, c. 750.]

Why is the Leader of the House so resistant to the proposal from the other place that we should have a Joint Committee of both Houses to establish the best way of moving forward and building a consensus?

[Chris Grayling]

I cannot agree to the message from the House of Lords or amendment (a), which was tabled by the hon. Member for Nottingham North—I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, as he knows, and for the House of Lords—and I invite the House not to do so. To do so would be to remove this process from the first Session of this Parliament. We would not be able to trial the measures until the second Session. That would be a direct contravention of our manifesto commitment to introduce the measure within the first 100 days. It would also invite the House of Lords to be directly involved in shaping the Standing Orders of this House—something that would require pretty extensive debate here before we did it. I think many Members would doubt that that was the right thing to do.

I do recognise the concerns in the other place about constitutional change. I have therefore written to the Chair of the Lords Constitution Committee in response to those concerns. I am grateful that the Committee has responded to say that it has agreed to undertake its own review of the impact of the proposals, including their effect on the House of Lords and their wider implications for the constitution as a whole. I hope that the work of that Committee and of the Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee will complement each other, that they will work in partnership in this area and that they will make recommendations ahead of the review that I have committed to carry out next year. I hope that we will also receive work from the other Committees in that time.

I therefore ask the House to reject amendment (a) and graciously to decline the request from the Lords. However, I want to send the clear message to the Lords—indeed, I have already done so—that I want their input.

[John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

England has waited 18 years to get some justice and power back under this lopsided devolution settlement that was forced on us against our will all those years ago. Can my right hon. Friend think of any good reason an English MP could give for voting against these very moderate proposals? Does he notice how few English Labour voices there are in the Chamber? They must be ashamed of their own party’s policy.

[Chris Grayling]

It baffles me that English Labour MPs seem to be set against these sensible and balanced proposals. They do not exclude anyone from debate, but they give the English a clearer voice so that they can say no to something being imposed on them against their wishes.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

A few weeks ago, the Leader of the House was talking about English votes for English laws, whereas today it has been about English and Welsh votes for English and Welsh laws. Will he develop this a bit further: can we have Scottish votes for Scots laws? Might I hope that he will support a 10-minute rule Bill by the end of November containing a triple lock that would enable the Scots Government, the Scots Parliament and Scots MPs here to say what should be happening for Scotland and that it will not be blocked by Conservative Members?

[Chris Grayling]

The reason we have taken this approach and the reason we are concerned about England is because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their own legislative Assemblies. The difference in Wales is that its devolution settlement is different from the ones in Scotland and in Northern Ireland. Key areas such as policing and justice are not devolved in Wales, and I would not countenance a situation where Welsh MPs were disadvantaged in debates on those issues. When I talk about this sometimes being English and Welsh votes for English and Welsh laws, it is to protect the interests of Welsh MPs as well. I hope that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), a Welsh MP, will bear that in mind.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

rose—

[Chris Grayling]

I give way to the Chair of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs.

[David T. C. Davies]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that these modest proposals will still allow Welsh and Scottish MPs to have far more influence over policy in the health service in England than any English MP currently has over the health service in Scotland or Wales? Why does he think some Members are so determined to prevent English MPs from having the same powers as they fought for in Wales and Scotland?

[Chris Grayling]

This still baffles me, because Scottish and Welsh Members can vote on education in my constituency but not on education in their own. All I am asking for is the ability to say no if the UK as a whole tries to impose something on my constituents that my constituents and their counterparts around England do not want. That seems to be entirely reasonable.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the Leader of the House clarify, for the benefit of all of us in this House, the composition of the Legislative Grand Committee for England, Wales and Northern Ireland? As drafted, it appears to include

“all Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland.”

As he will know, there are MPs who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland who, shamefully, do not take their seats in this House and are absentee MPs—there are four Sinn Féin Members. Please reassure me that they are not going to be serving on this Legislative Grand Committee.

[Chris Grayling]

They cannot; if they do not turn up, they cannot participate. They are Members of this House but they do not turn up and so they cannot participate. That situation is not going to change, be it in relation to something that is before the whole House or to a Committee.

[Hywel Williams]

Can the Leader of the House explain how we would solve the conundrum of the health service in England being changed in the north-west of England, given that it serves so many people in north Wales? People in north Wales would be taking advantage of a service that had changed substantially but their representatives would have been excluded from the discussion.

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration. He is not responsible for the Administration in Wales. He will know, rightly, that the Administration here in Westminster are doing a much better job of running the health service than the Labour Administration in Cardiff. I can understand why Welsh constituents look longingly over the border into England on health matters, but I simply remind him that a consequence of devolution is that if health is devolved in Wales, it is the responsibility of Assembly Members to discuss and debate those health matters. The opportunity I am leaving him—I am not taking it away from him—is to speak on and vote on health matters across the border in England. All I am asking when he does so is that if he is part of a United Kingdom bloc of Members of Parliament seeking to impose change on the English, the English should have the right to give their consent before that change happens.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Grayling]

I am giving to give way but then I must make some progress, because so many people want to speak.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Is the point not a simple one? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the people of Basildon and Thurrock will find it very hard to understand how people who are not affected by legislation can force it on those who are? What this measure does is resolve that issue.

[Chris Grayling]

I could not have said it better myself. My hon. Friend is absolutely right and puts his finger on the heart of these reforms. They are fair and sensible. Whatever Opposition Members say today, I am entirely comfortable, as a Unionist, in presenting them to this House.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Grayling]

I am going to make some progress because I am aware that many people want to speak. I wish to touch on one point relating to the McKay report and how some Members of this House are interpreting what it says. I have thought about this very carefully. I have talked to Sir William and looked at his report, and I am very clear that our proposals are consistent with the recommendations made by the team who worked on it. In particular, I draw the House’s attention to his core recommendation:

“A principle common to the devolution arrangements for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales exists on which to base proposals for modifying the procedures of the House of Commons to mitigate the unfairness felt by people in England. The constitutional principle that should be adopted for England (and for England-and-Wales) is that: decisions at the United Kingdom level with a separate and distinct effect for England (or for England-and-Wales) should normally be taken only with the consent of a majority of MPs for constituencies in England (or England and-Wales). This principle should be adopted by a resolution of the House of Commons”.

That is what we are putting in place today. It is worth saying that Sir William’s report was produced before the Scottish referendum and before the new devolution changes set out in the Smith commission report existed, but we have still remained faithful to the principle.

I was delighted when I heard the shadow Leader of the House accept the need for English votes for English laws, but I was disappointed to see from his comments and his amendments that he wants a reform that is toothless and meaningless. Labour’s position appears to be that devolved powers are a good thing, as long as it is not in England. I gently remind him today that if he votes against these measures, he will be a Welsh MP voting against a measure that also provides Welsh votes for English and Welsh laws. He will therefore be voting against increasing the influence of Welsh MPs over matters such as policing and justice. His amendments would also have the effect of removing almost all the substance from these proposals. If the House were to accept what he is proposing today, we might as well pack up and go home now. He has proposed a set of wrecking amendments and they are the wrong thing to do.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Grayling]

I will give way twice more and then I will sit down.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for the conversations we have had on this matter. Why is he quite prepared to exclude Members from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland from the English Grand Committee but he will not exclude English Members from the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scots Grand Committees?

[Chris Grayling]

I am not excluding the hon. Gentleman from the English Grand Committee. He will be able to speak in that Committee and to vote on Bills. I am simply leaving the English with a requirement to give their consent before something can happen. Where we legislate in this House for a variety of issues affecting Wales, we require a legislative consent motion from the Welsh Assembly Government. That is no different from this House seeking a legislative consent motion from the English in order to proceed.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

Like many Members, I have raised petitions on this issue and I have received enormous support from my constituents. One challenge with raising petitions in Worcester is that when we go out on the high street, we constantly meet day trippers from Wales. What I found was that when I explained to them that this was about English votes for English laws and English and Welsh votes on English and Welsh issues, they happily signed the petitions and gave strong support for the approach we are taking.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point: the public are on our side over this. It is perhaps a sign that we are in government and the Opposition are not that we are more in touch with what the public think.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

Does the Leader of the House agree that these relatively modest proposals do something powerful, which is allow us to say to our constituents—I say this as a Member of Parliament born in Belfast but representing an English constituency—that in future there is no chance of the rest of the United Kingdom’s Members of Parliament imposing on them something that they do not want in England? The reason there is so much hostility from Scottish National party Members is that they realise this is a safety valve that will help to protect the future of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I could not have put it better myself. The proposed changes enable us to give an answer to the West Lothian question and to our constituents by saying that England will have its own piece of the devolution settlement, but we will achieve that without removing any Member of Parliament from the workings of this Chamber. We will hear much this afternoon about how these changes will create a different class of MPs, exclude MPs, and shut MPs out from the job that they do. The truth is that that is nonsense. Despite all the rhetoric, our proposals do none of that. Instead, they bring fairness to our devolution settlement, and it is fairness that will secure the future of our Union.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

All right, I defy the hon. Gentleman to tell me whether clause 44 of the Housing and Planning Bill applies to England, England and Wales, Wales only, England, Wales and Scotland, or England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. He cannot—[Interruption.] I will give him some time.

[Chris Grayling]

No one is giving any instructions to the Speaker. It is custom and practice for those drafting a Bill to set out its territorial extent. No doubt those who drafted the Housing and Planning Bill will know precisely the territorial extent of clause 44. I do not happen to remember what clause 44 is; perhaps he does.

[Chris Bryant]

I know clause 44 extremely well, but I am not going to let on to the Leader of the House. If he cannot be bothered to read his own legislation when it goes through the Legislative Programme Committee, which he chairs, that is a problem for him.

Although the measures seek to address one anomaly, which has been referred to by the right hon. Member for Wokingham, I believe that they will create many more. If Scottish MPs are not to be allowed to determine legislation that affects only England, why should English MPs be allowed to determine Westminster legislation that affects only Scotland or, for that matter, that affects only Wales or Northern Ireland? Plenty of legislation, clauses and schedules fall into that category. The Partnerships (Prosecution) (Scotland) Act 2013, for instance, applied only in Scotland but was driven through the House of Commons on the back of the Government’s majority. I tell the Leader of the House that this is a dangerous road to go down as it will set a worm of grievance into the hearts of many across the Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I am not giving way for a while.

These measures will also not deliver the Government’s declared aim. The Library has examined every Division since 2001—some 3,000 Divisions in all. Library staff looked at what would happen if no Scottish MPs had voted in any of those Divisions. They found just a tiny proportion where that would have changed the vote— 25 in all. Yes, I admit that perhaps I could understand the Government if all the measures that we are debating this afternoon were intended to deal with those 25 cases, but of the 25, nine were on UK-wide or England, Wales and Scotland legislation, such as anti-terrorism legislation, so not affected; 10 were on non-legislative motions, such as whether the screen should be installed, so also not affected; three were on private Members’ Bills and, to answer the question from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) earlier, would not have been affected by the measures under consideration this afternoon; and one would have been tied and would therefore have fallen.

The most contentious subject, which the Leader of the House rather inadvertently deceptively mentioned in the previous debate, was on 27 January 2004, when the Higher Education Bill was given a Second Reading by five votes when 46 Scottish MPs had voted in favour and 15 against. Interestingly, the Tories voted against it then, but a few years later trebled tuition fees. However, that vote would not have been changed by today’s proposals, as I hope the Leader of the House acknowledges. It would not have been changed, would it? He need only nod. It would not have been changed, would it? [Interruption.] Oh, he thinks it would. No. The vote was on Second Reading, and Second Reading is not covered, a point that he has made several times. He does not understand his own provisions which he introduced this afternoon. [Interruption.] No, it was not. There is no point in the Leader of the House intervening again if he does not understand his own proposals.

[Chris Grayling]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

I am not giving way to the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I think I am duty bound to give way to the Leader of the House.

[Chris Grayling]

I was simply going to point out, as the hon. Gentleman and I were both Members at the time, that the top-up fees Bill in 2003-04 would not have secured a legislative consent motion because the English were opposed to it. Therefore, under these measures, it would not have happened.

[Chris Bryant]

That is not correct. The right hon. Gentleman needs to look back through the record. The vote was on Second Reading and the Bill was carried very healthily on Third Reading by English MPs as well. The measures this afternoon have nothing to say about Second or Third Readings.

On the amendments, the Procedure Committee was clear that it wanted a proper pilot system for these measures. These are enormous constitutional changes and they should be properly piloted. The response from the Leader of the House suggests that he thinks this will be a pilot. He stated in a written ministerial statement that

“there will be a limited number of Bills to which the proposals will apply in the remainder of this Session of Parliament”—

that is all he is talking about. He went on:

“While this is not a pilot in the exact terms of the Committee’s Report, the outcome will be very similar.” —[Official Report, 20 October 2015; Vol. 600, c. 43W.]

I gather the Government Chief Whip has been telling all his anxious colleagues not to worry as it is just a pilot, so I am taking the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip at their word. Our amendment (e) would mean that the Government would have to come back to the House in April if they wanted to continue the measures, or if they wanted to introduce other measures after we had had an opportunity to review how the processes had worked.

Talking of taking the Leader of the House at his word, he said earlier today that the Speaker is able to dismiss minor or consequential issues when certificating Bills. That is what he said—minor or consequential issues. He is wrong. It is minor and consequential issues. He knows that perfectly well and he went on to correct himself. Yet again, he does not fully understand his proposals. Our amendment (f) would make this “minor and consequential”, rather than “minor or consequential”, because that is the only way that Barnett consequentials could be taken into consideration when determining whether a Bill applies only in England or only in England and Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

May I say ever so gently to the hon. Gentleman that this is being done to us and it has taken an hour and a half and six speeches before a Scottish Member of Parliament has been allowed to speak? We will take our time and I will not rush for his sake.

I have scoured the fourth set of Standing Orders to see whether they change the first set significantly. Perhaps one curious thing could be explained to me. On the Speaker’s certification, the Speaker is now required and obliged to speak to two members of the Panel of Chairs before deciding whether a Bill will be English-only. I have a lot of respect for those on the Panel of Chairs—they do a fantastic job chairing the Committees of this House—but I have never known them to be an authority on the constitution. Surely it would be as well to ask two random members of the public for their views. The people that should be spoken to are the Scottish Government, the Welsh Assembly Government, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. They are the bodies that this is being dumped on and it is their devolution settlements that will be impacted, but there is no requirement on the Speaker to consult them.

The most invidious thing about the proposals is what they will do to the Speaker. The Speaker will be politicised, which is almost unforgivable. That could set the Speaker in conflict with Scottish Members of Parliament. If we do not agree with and reject one of the certifications, what are we supposed to do? We are here to represent our constituents, so of course we are going to do what we can to ensure that their voice is heard. The proposal could lead to a challenge that goes all the way to judicial review and the Supreme Court. We know that the rulings of the Speaker are unchallengeable because of parliamentary privilege, but if constituents who watch what is going on here feel that their rights are not being represented properly, we will end up in the Supreme Court and judicial review.

One of the daftest things the Leader of the House has said—I say this candidly, because I have a lot of affection for him—is that there is no such thing as Barnett consequentials. He told the Procedure Committee:

“I have looked long and hard at the issue of Barnett consequentials and I think they are a bit of both an illusion and a side issue. I don’t actually believe that Barnett consequentials exist.”

According to the right hon. Gentleman, Barnett consequentials are up there with Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. What he said about Barnett consequentials is absurd and I will give him the chance to take it back.

[Chris Grayling]

I have asked the Scottish nationalists to offer one example of a piece of legislation outwith the estimates process that has had a direct financial impact on the budget for Scotland. So far, neither he, his colleagues nor my officials have been able to come up with one example.

[Pete Wishart]

After the Leader of the House made those remarks, we went to the Scotland Office to look at the annual report and found that about 56 Barnett consequentials were enacted in the course of one Parliament. Of course there are Barnett consequentials. It is absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise.

I think the Leader of the House is trying to refer to downstream Barnett consequentials, but he is totally and utterly wrong about that as well. On the supply and estimates procedure, they are called estimates for a reason: they are an estimated departmental spend, and the Barnett consequentials from any subsequent legislation are simply consolidated in the next set of estimates.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Again, thinking on my feet I would say that such guidance as is necessary to facilitate Members in the House and ensure that what they are expected to do is intelligible to them, shall be provided. Whether it will be necessary for written guidance to be provided, or whether oral guidance from the Chair can be issued on the appropriate occasions, remains to be seen. I make that latter point not least because there was an obvious example of that at the start of today’s proceedings on these matters. I provided oral guidance to the House because I thought it would be helpful to Members to have an idea in advance about the order of proceedings and the choreography of the occasion. Advice might be written or it might be oral, but I would not want the hon. Gentleman to be unguided when in need.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Clearly, no one would take final actions before the House had approved a motion, but it might be helpful simply to inform the House that extensive work has been done by the Clerks to prepare for the possibility of the House approving the Standing Orders today. It is undoubtedly the case that they will be working in the coming days to ensure that Members are both briefed and ready for changes as they arise.

[Mr Speaker]

That is a very useful point to make, both because it informs the House and because it pays proper tribute to our Clerks. They will also do their duty. The Leader of the House is of course quite right. They anticipate scenarios and they do very good work in advance, applying, as Members will appreciate, what Hercule Poirot would have called their little grey cells, of which they have a very large number.

Business of the House

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The business for next week will be as follows:

Monday 26 October—Remaining stages of the Finance Bill.

Tuesday 27 October— Remaining stages of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill.

Wednesday 28 October—Opposition day (8th allotted day). There will be a debate on steel, followed by a debate on health.

Thursday 29 October—Back-Bench business day. A motion in the name of the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) relating to a House business committee, followed by a debate on a motion relating to the distributional effect of proposed reforms to tax credits.

Friday 30 October—Private Members’ Bills.

The provisional business for the week commencing 2 November will include:

Monday 2 November—Second Reading of the Housing and Planning Bill.

Tuesday 3 November—Opposition day (9th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Wednesday 4 November—Remaining stages of the National Insurance Contributions (Rate Ceilings) Bill.

Thursday 5 November—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 6 November —Private Members’ Bills.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for the week commencing 26 October will be:

Thursday 29 October—General debate on the future of the green investment bank.

Finally, Mr Speaker, may I associate myself with your very gracious remarks earlier about Michael Meacher? He was a great figure in this House. Even those of us who very much disagreed with his policies respected him as a great parliamentarian, a man who made a major contribution to our public life. He will be much missed by his friends on both sides of this House.

[Chris Bryant]

I, too, pay tribute to Michael Meacher. To be honest, few Members can have had such an impact as he had in his years as Environment Minister. He was an indefatigable stalwart who battled away in the intellectual trenches of politics for nearly five decades in this place. In his last speech in this House, he delivered an absolutely excoriating attack on the Government’s economic policy, and he ended with the words:

“So much for the Government’s…‘long-term plan.’”—[Official Report, 4 June 2015; Vol. 596, c. 819.]

Our thoughts warmly go out to his family and to all those who knew him well.

May we have a debate about how we celebrate anniversaries in this House? Yesterday, we completely ignored Trafalgar day, despite it being the 210th anniversary of one of the United Kingdom’s greatest naval triumphs. This Sunday, St Crispin’s day, will see the 600th anniversary of the battle of Agincourt at which several hon. Members of this House fought, though not, contrary to rumour, the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg). The Speaker, Thomas Chaucer, brought along 12 men at arms and 37 archers. I think that you, Mr Speaker, might feel that you need them for your press conferences. Next year is the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare’s death.

It was an immense pleasure this week to see the band of the Brigade of Gurkhas beat the retreat in the Speaker’s Court in proper recognition of their 200 years of valour and 13 Victoria Crosses that they have won, but should we not in Parliament do better at recognising these important national milestones?

Talking of beating the retreat, when will the Government beat the retreat on the cuts to tax credits? I can offer them two opportunities coming up very soon. There will be a vote in this House on Tuesday and another on Thursday. Before the Leader of the House gives us a whole load of tripe about financial privilege in the Lords, may I remind him that this is all his fault—his personal fault? The Government could perfectly easily have introduced these cuts in a Bill. That would have been a money Bill, which you, Mr Speaker, would have certificated as a money Bill and which we would have been able to look at line by line, but the Lords would not have been able to look at it because it was a money Bill. But oh no, the Leader of the House is too clever by half. He decided that a statutory instrument was best, so there would be just one-and-a-half hour’s debate on it and no amendments allowed. Unfortunately, the only downside—oh dear!—is that it has to go to the Lords. So he has been hoist on his own petard. In the end, every single one of us here knows that some way or other the Government will beat the retreat. Tory Back Benchers want him to retreat, and even The Spectator today says that they have lost sight of the human factor, so retreat the Government will. Will the Leader of the House just tell us when it will happen? I promise that we will not crow.

I warmly congratulate Mr Alex Newton on being appointed the new editor of Hansard and pay tribute to the retiring editor, Lorraine Sutherland, who had to cope with John Prescott’s contributions in this House. Members will know that Hansard is not exactly a verbatim record—thank goodness. It corrects repetitions and mistakes, so may I suggest that Hansard starts by re-examining the Prime Minister’s remarks yesterday. He said that he was “delighted” to be bringing in the tax credit cuts. Delighted! He cannot possibly have meant that. There must surely be a heart in this man.

On steel, the Prime Minister said:

“We will do everything we can to help”.—[Official Report, 20 October 2015; Vol. 600, c. 956.]

What he actually meant to say was, “We will do absolutely nothing to help.” He also said yesterday that the Government intend to relax the Sunday trading laws. When will that be debated and when will it be tabled? What Bill will it be in? I ask that simply because many of us on the Labour Benches, and I suspect on the Government Benches too, want to keep Sunday special.

I thank the Leader of the House for granting extra time for psychoactive substances this week—sorry, I mean the Psychoactive Substances Bill. I noticed last week that the Leader of the House did not answer a single question that I asked, so I warn him to take notes today, as, from now on, I will be writing to him after each session for answers to any questions that remain unanswered.

On 25 November, we shall have the autumn statement together with the comprehensive spending review. It is surely incumbent on us to scrutinise public spending diligently, including public spending cuts. Will the Leader of the House set aside three full days for a proper debate about the implications of the Government’s cuts? Of course the deficit must come down. We have to live within our means, but we will oppose any measures that are unfair, counterproductive or false economies.

You will know, Mr Speaker, that the Public Accounts Committee published a special report this week on the conduct of the Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People when he was a member of that Committee in the last Parliament and leaked a draft report to Wonga. The matter stands committed to the Privileges Committee for a decision on whether it is gross contempt of the House—or at least it would if the Government had set up the Privileges Committee. Will the Leader of the House tell us why it has not yet been set up? Is it because the Prime Minister knew perfectly well that the issue was coming along the track? When the noble Lord Touhig was found to have asked for a draft copy of a Select Committee report some years ago, he immediately resigned as a Parliamentary Private Secretary pending the decision of the then Standards and Privileges Committee, which later suspended him from the House. Will the Leader of the House explain why the Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People has not done the same?

With the opening of the new Bond movie next week, will Ministers celebrate the British film industry by auditioning for the next film? I can just see the Health Secretary, who will doubtless be playing Dr No. The Home Secretary will make a cameo appearance in her steel-tipped kitten heels as Rosa Klebb, and I can just imagine the Culture Secretary jumping across roofs in a fine exhibition of parkour on Her Majesty’s secret service. The Chancellor would look very fetching as Miss Moneypenny, and I gather that he is quite a cunning linguist—that is from “Tomorrow Never Dies”, Mr Speaker—and the Mayor of London’s career is surely proof positive that you only live twice. As for the villain running an evil media empire, intent on world domination—well, Members can pick their own. I note from the press that the spectre of dismissal is hanging over the Leader of the House, but perhaps he can take a quantum of solace in the fact that it would be the Work and Pensions Secretary who would get the part of the smooth-pated Oddjob, who comes to a grisly electrocuted end.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned anniversaries and he is right to say that we should celebrate all the work that the Gurkhas have done on behalf of this country. I think that he and the Leader of the Opposition will join me in recognising another, rather sadder anniversary today, as it is the 50th anniversary of the tragedy at Aberfan, a terrible event that led to the deaths of 116 children and 28 adults. It is a blot on our history and something that we should never forget. I hope that everyone in the House will remember those tragic events today.

The hon. Gentleman is, as we know, highly regarded among those on his Benches for his knowledge and understanding of the procedures of the House, so I am slightly mystified by his comments about tax credits and legislation. He will know that tax credits do not come within the scope of a Finance Bill, so I am a little puzzled by his assertion that we should have put the measure into a Finance Bill. He will also know that even if this House were to resolve to change that process, it would open up a range of additional questions about the role of the House of Lords and whether they should debate Finance Bills. I am surprised that he appears not to understand the processes of this House and I advise him perhaps to consult the Clerks afterwards who can put him right, I am sure.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of tax credits more generally. It is, of course, a matter that has been carefully debated in this House and voted on twice by MPs in the past few weeks. The measure has been supported by the House twice and it is interesting that the deputy leader of the Labour party did not turn up to oppose the changes, which we believe should now go forward and be put into action.

I suppose we should not be surprised that there is a degree of uncertainty on the Labour Benches, because we have had some interesting reports about what is going on. A message is being passed to me from a person with a vested interest, as is often the case for the Leader of the Opposition. A member of the Labour party has said to me:

“Farce doesn’t begin to describe our position any more. It’s the political equivalent of all the slapstick staples rolled into one. The Three Stooges pie fight. Stan Laurel stuck up a ladder. The house collapsing on Buster Keaton.”

That is a message for me from Simon of Rochdale. You know, Mr Speaker, the people of Rochdale are wise and that is why, I think, they elected him as their Labour Member of Parliament.

The hon. Gentleman talked about steel. We are very clear. We are doing everything we can to support the steel industry in a difficult period for the workers and all those who live in those communities. We have looked at changing the rules on procurement. We are working to provide financial support. We are in discussions with the European Commission about what support we are able to provide. We have raised the issue of dumping with the Chinese this week. We will do everything we can to support our steel industry, but I remind the Opposition that it was when they were in government that steel output in this country halved, and manufacturing in this country almost halved as a share of our national income. Under this Government manufacturing is growing and the steel industry has held up in output terms and has employed more people, so I do not think we should take lessons from the Opposition as we work very hard to address an extremely difficult set of circumstances.

The hon. Gentleman raised questions about Sunday trading. That is a matter that will be debated in the House shortly.

[Chris Bryant]

When?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I am rather surprised. The hon. Gentleman claims to know all about the procedures of this House, and he will know that at Business questions each week the Leader of the House gives the business for the following two weeks. That is the way it is today and it is the way it will continue to be. He will have to wait for the business to be announced when we come to that point, and I will make a point of announcing that when the time is right.

I have always had high regard for the hon. Gentleman as someone who knows the House of Commons procedures, but once again he seems be getting it wrong today. He is asking me for answers to questions of detail about ministerial responsibilities. This is a session for asking about future business, so when he asks me about numbers of asylum seekers or details of the Prime Minister’s knowledge about issues, I understand that he wants to ask the questions, but he needs to go to the relevant departmental questions and raise those matters himself. Today is about the future business of the House and I will be delighted to answer questions about the future business in this House. I just cannot help him. If the Clerks can spend a little time with him giving him a refresher course, perhaps next week we will not see quite such a lack of understanding of parliamentary process.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I had the pleasure of working with Michael Meacher in Parliament First. He was a great parliamentarian and he always wanted to put the House first. In that regard, what is my right hon. Friend’s view of the motion to be voted on roughly this time next week about establishing a business of the House committee? Would he regard it as House business on which there should be no whipping on the Government side?

[Chris Grayling]

I know how strongly my hon. Friend feels about this and how expert he is at working at parliamentary procedure. Perhaps he might like to give the shadow Leader of the House a lesson afterwards. It might be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. I am going to have to make my hon. Friend wait for a few days. I will give the matter careful consideration. Whipping is not a matter for me—it is for the Chief Whip, and I am sure he will make that point as well. I do understand the point he makes.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business for next week. I paid tribute to Michael Meacher last evening at the start of the debate on the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but I associate the Scottish National party with your comments this morning, Mr Speaker.

This is not a particularly good week for those who are poor or struggling to make ends meet in Tory UK. The tax credit whammy will be followed by the remaining stages of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill next week as this Tory Government up their assault on the poorest, most marginal and most vulnerable in our society. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) raised the issue of suicides related to changes to benefit arrangements for disabled claimants right across the United Kingdom. Apparently, something like 60 live investigations have been undertaken by the Department for Work and Pensions into the circumstances surrounding these suicides and deaths. May we have a debate—that is the only thing we can do—to assess what is happening to the poorest, most vulnerable and most marginal in our society? Will the Leader of the House publish the results of those DWP investigations?

One thing that happened in the past week—like Brigadoon, it appears once every 100 years—was the emergence of compassionate conservatism. The remarkable speech from the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) showed that there was some element of that within the callous heart of this Tory Government. We also hear about concerns from the Mayor of London, but such signs of compassion are to be chopped down just as they appear.

The Leader of the House is even considering suspending the work of the House of Lords because it dares to disagree with the Government. I am not a friend of the donors and the cronies in that place, but at least I respect their right to have their view on these issues. The Leader of the House seems to want either to suspend the business of the other place or flood it with even more Tory donors—a place that is already bloated with more than 800 Members. Here is another solution that the Scottish National party might support: how about just abolishing the place? That would solve the problem at once, because the Tories would get their way and face no opposition, having stamped down on dissent on their Back Benches. We would give that proposal a sympathetic hearing.

Mr Speaker, this is the last business questions at which I will be addressing you as an equal Member with my English colleagues, if the Leader of the House gets his way and consigns me and my colleagues to second-class status in this House following today’s EVEL vote. Indeed, a week on Monday we might see the first certification from you, Mr Speaker, on the Housing and Planning Bill, which I know you are looking forward to with great interest. Can the Leader of the House confirm that that will be the first EVEL certification? While we are on the Bond theme, I think I prefer Austin Powers, because after today’s vote the right hon. Gentleman will forever and a day be known as this House’s Dr EVEL.

[Chris Grayling]

I think that I still have fractionally more hair than Dr Evil.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have great affection for him as a parliamentarian and very much enjoy debating with him, but I cannot help but feel that today we are getting some slightly mixed messages. For one extraordinary moment I thought that he was about to reinvent himself as a champion of the House of Lords, but then he returned to his view that it should be abolished, raising my expectations and then dashing them at a stroke. Whatever my views might be—I happen to have great regard for the other place, as well as for him—I am afraid that I do not have the power to suspend the House of Lords. Therefore, I counsel him not to believe everything he reads in the newspapers.

I also encourage the hon. Gentleman not to be quite so cynical about compassionate conservatism. Let us look at a couple of things that have happened under this Government. We are seeing child poverty come down, not up, despite all the warnings from the Labour party. One of the achievements I am most proud of is the fact that our party, both in coalition and now in a majority Government, has overseen a rapid drop in unemployment and in the number of children growing up in workless households. To me, that makes a crucial difference for the development of the next generation. That is something I will always be proud of, and something that I think lies at the heart of a compassionate Conservative party and what it is achieving for this country.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about the debates on tax credits, but I am afraid that he has a rather misguided view of our approach to the poor. I remind him that we are cutting the rents of social tenants, increasing childcare, perhaps to the tune of £2,500 a year, cutting taxation for people on low incomes and boosting the national living wage for people on low incomes. This is a Government who care about people on low incomes and are doing practical things to help them. However, we cannot continue to have a high-tax, high-welfare and low-wage society. We have to change that, and that is what we are doing.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments about what the Government are doing for the steel industry. Many of my constituents are affected by the redundancies in Scunthorpe, so we need regular information to pass to them. Will he give an absolute assurance that the Business Secretary will come to the House regularly to make oral statements, particularly after visiting Brussels for talks with the European Commission in the coming days?

[Chris Grayling]

That is an issue I take very seriously. I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that Ministers with responsibility will want to keep the House informed. Indeed, the Prime Minister has addressed the issue on more than one occasion. We will do everything we possibly can to ease the problems caused by a deeply distressing change in world steel markets and to protect the livelihoods of workers in this country, but at the same time we will continue to pursue a policy that has succeeded in bringing down unemployment right across the country. It is much better to deal with these challenges in the context of an improving labour market, rather than a worsening one.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

A large group of women born in the 1950s have been badly hit by the acceleration of the state pension age as a result of the Pensions Acts of 1995 and 2011, and many of them, including my constituents, were not informed of the changes, which clearly have a key impact on their future pensions incomes. My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) requested a debate on the issue last week but received a fairly dismissive reply. This issue is very important to hundreds of thousands of women, so I ask the Leader of the House to reconsider.

[Chris Grayling]

I understood the points that were made last week, but I would simply say that Governments of both sides have taken the view in recent years that we have to increase the state pension age. It was done under the previous Labour Government and it has been done most recently under the coalition Government. We are seeing life expectancies rise massively in this country, and that is good. People are living far longer than they did before, but the inevitable consequence is an increasing state pension age, and that is what has happened. If the hon. Lady wants a debate, she can certainly refer the matter to the Backbench Business Committee. I understand that it is difficult for the women concerned, but in a world where people live much longer than they did before, it is impossible to make a transition without some kind of impact on those involved.

[Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

This morning, the Competition and Markets Authority released a report outlining a number of issues in the current account market that affect personal and business customers. May we have a debate in Government time on what measures can be taken to create more competition in this market?

[Chris Grayling]

This is an important issue. We very much want consumers to get the best possible deal. It is a marketplace where issues have been raised, as we have seen from today’s developments. The Treasury team, including the Minister responsible, will be here on Tuesday for questions. I encourage my hon. Friend to take part and make sure that Treasury Ministers respond appropriately to her concerns.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

With reference to the debate on the remaining stages of the Finance Bill, will the Leader of the House give consideration to a debate on the aggregates industry, which is particularly relevant to Northern Ireland as a taxation issue? We want to see the reinstatement of the aggregates levy credit scheme because our construction industry has to compete at a disadvantage with that in the Republic of Ireland.

[Chris Grayling]

I have listened carefully to what the hon. Lady says. This is always a challenge because it is so easy for business to flow one way or the other across the border. Treasury Ministers will be here for the debate on Monday, when she can raise her concerns, subject to your ruling it in order, Mr Speaker. There are also Treasury questions on Tuesday, so I am sure she will take advantage of that opportunity.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

When are the Government likely to provide time for a debate about the consequences of the agreements made with the Chinese Government this week concerning nuclear power, which are clearly very significant? Not only is the possibility of a new power station at Bradwell, overlooking my constituency, likely to have very detrimental effects on the marine ecology of the Blackwater estuary, but the ownership, construction and control of our critical national infrastructure appears not to have been fully considered by the National Security Council, and no proper assessment has been made of the consequences of these very significant decisions for our national security.

[Chris Grayling]

I will make sure that my hon. Friend’s concerns are raised with Ministers. There will be a number of opportunities for these matters to be raised at oral questions and, should he so choose, in debates on upcoming Bills. Clearly, the issue could be looked at in some of the discussions on Treasury matters coming up in the next few days. I will make sure that his concerns are raised and give careful consideration to what he has said.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

When can we have the details of the arrangements for the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the House when he visits this country in the middle of November? I know that you, Mr Speaker, are very supportive of the visit of Mr Modi to the House. Following the successful visit of the President of China, it is important that we should treat the leader of the world’s largest democracy in a proper and appropriate way. That will be also be welcomed by constituents in Leicester East, which has the largest number of British Indians, and Harrow East, which has the second largest number of British Indians.

[Chris Grayling]

First, let me say on behalf of the Government and everyone in this House how much we are looking forward to Prime Minister Modi’s visit. India is a country with which we have long and historic ties. It is a close friend and ally. It is also, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the largest democracy in the world. This is a friendship that we should cherish and support and always seek to sustain. I hope and expect that when Prime Minister Modi comes to London, we, as the mother of Parliaments, the Government, and, indeed, the whole country will extend the warm welcome to him that he has every right to expect. This will provide an opportunity for us to mark the very real and important contribution that the Indian community has made to this country. It is a real opportunity to celebrate our ties and that contribution.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Further to the question asked by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz)—I shall call him my right hon. Friend—about the visit of Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi, which you also referred to earlier this week, Mr Speaker, could we have a statement on the Floor of the House from a Foreign Office Minister on the arrangements, so that this country’s Indian diaspora can join Parliament in the celebrations? I am proud to represent the Indian diaspora in Harrow East and have no doubt that my right hon. Friend is proud to represent them in Leicester, too. Can we also note the fact that the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor both sought to block a visa being issued to Narendra Modi only two years ago?

[Chris Grayling]

I am not sure about the exact mechanism you will choose, Mr Speaker—because it is first and foremost a matter for you and the Lord Speaker—to announce how this Parliament will receive the Prime Minister of India, but I know that the matter is very much on your minds. We expect to be able to give details to hon. Members shortly.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I ask the Leader of the House about proper celebrations of big anniversaries? It will be the centenary of Harold Wilson’s birth on 11 March and I hope we will be able to mark it appropriately.

May I also push the Leader of the House on the need for a debate about the importance of this country’s film industry? I was born near Shepperton studios and my brother and sister worked there. One of our neighbourhood friends, John Glen, left school at 14 and went on to direct some of the James Bond movies. I want to know who pays taxes in the film industry and where they pay them.

[Chris Grayling]

The British film industry plays an enormously important role in this country and has a great tradition. There are not that many major adventure movies that do not have some kind of footprint in this country. That is a great tribute to this country’s creative industry, and long should we cherish, support and be proud of it.

This House should note the anniversary of Harold Wilson’s birth, because he was another great figure in our politics. His wife, Lady Wilson, is still alive and I hope that, as we mark the occasion, we will also think of her and that the House will send a message to her about how much we value not only her husband’s contribution to the country, but her personal contribution during his years as Prime Minister.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

May I just make it clear to the House that, as much as I enjoy watching them, I have no association with James Bond films?

Yesterday we heard that comments made in this House formed part of a campaign that undermined a police investigation. Will my right hon. Friend grant time for a debate on the issue of how hon. Members conduct themselves in such serious matters?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes a very serious point. I heard the remarks made in the Home Affairs Committee yesterday, but the conduct that has been unveiled in the past few days is nothing less than shocking. From time to time, every one of us is presented with difficult information that may or may not have substance. Of course, we have a duty to ensure that that information is followed through properly, but this country has a fundamental principle of people being innocent until they are proven guilty. For any Member of this House, let alone one who holds high office in his party, to make public statements about innocence and guilt before the evidence has even been assessed properly is shocking and betrays the principles of this House. I hope and believe that the relevant organisations in this House that can take a look at this matter will do so with great seriousness.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

May I urge the Leader of the House to make time to discuss the very serious and sensitive issue of why successive British Governments have failed to secure compensation for the victims of Libyan-sponsored IRA violence not just in Northern Ireland, but throughout the United Kingdom, including the Harrods bombing? This really sensitive issue should be discussed on the Floor of the House.

[Chris Grayling]

I understand the seriousness of the hon. Lady’s point. It is a genuine issue and there are tragic stories behind her question. I will ensure that her concerns are raised with my colleagues in the Foreign Office, and I suggest that she considers bringing this subject to the House, through either a Backbench Business Committee debate or an Adjournment debate, so that she can raise it directly with the Minister responsible.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the NHS providing a purpose-built national centre of excellence to treat rare diseases such as epidermolysis bullosa?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend raises an important point, and I hope that the work being done in this country to develop an understanding of genetics, and to develop gene-based treatments for some of the most difficult and rare diseases, will make progress and help provide solutions to sufferers. I am confident that we will make real progress through the high-quality research being done in this country to tackle many diseases. I encourage my hon. Friend to return to this issue so that we do not take our foot off the gas in relation to research that makes such a difference to so many people.

[Alex Salmond (Gordon) (SNP)]

I caution the Leader of the House against the idea from Labour Members about a celebration of the battle of Agincourt in parliamentary terms, since Scotland was basically on the other side—if I remember correctly, it was assisting a rebellion by progressive forces in England against the Lancastrian autocracy of Henry V.

On current military engagements, why is there no statement on developments in Syria? There are 12 combatant countries in Syria, and the Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and Defence Secretary want Britain to be the unlucky No. 13. The new Canadian Government have withdrawn from military operations in Syria, and there has been not a single Government reaction or comment—not even a tweet—about that development. Does that silence speak volumes about a Government who regard military intervention as a substitute for political and diplomatic strategy?

[Chris Grayling]

We do not regard military intervention as a substitute for diplomatic strategy. The Government take military action only in extreme circumstances, and when it is essential and the right thing to do. Should we choose to take any sort of military action in the future we have committed to discuss the matter with the House, and should such circumstances arise, we will of course do so.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

We have a crisis in Avon and Somerset policing. Our police and crime commissioner has not had a chief constable for nearly her entire tenure. She has lost the confidence of the police and of MPs, and we have no mechanism to get rid of this person. We need a debate in Government time to decide on a mechanism for getting rid of PCCs who are not up to the job, are not capable of the job, and have not got the intellectual rigour to do it.

[Chris Grayling]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, and there will be such a debate, not in the Chamber, not in Government time, but over the next five months. I hope that we as Conservatives will put forward a better strategy for policing in that area, and that we will win the election next May.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

Illegal, large-scale waste dumping is a growing worry in north Staffordshire and east Cheshire, and the activities of one haulage company—Frizells, which is based in Crewe— are of particular recent concern. May we have a debate on the effectiveness of the Environment Agency in licensing, monitoring, and enforcing the law on the dumping of waste materials?

[Chris Grayling]

This issue causes concern in a number of places. Just before the election I visited the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), where we saw an extraordinary 1 km long illegal dump at the side of the Thames. It was absolutely shocking, and if the hon. Gentleman’s constituency has suffered anything like that, I understand his frustration. If local councils are on the ball, they have powers to be tough about such issues. Where they have not been tough, the problem is much exacerbated. My advice is for the hon. Gentleman to talk to his local council and ensure that it uses the powers available.

[Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House make time for an urgent debate, in Government time, on parliamentary privilege, to ensure that it is not abused by any hon. Member?

[Chris Grayling]

This is an issue to which the House will want to return, perhaps through the Backbench Business Committee. We must not make the same mistake that perhaps some hon. Members have made in relation to putting guilt before innocence. There is due process. A Select Committee inquiry is taking place and there may well be another one. I believe there may also have been a referral to the Standards Committee. We need to let that process take shape. Every single Member of this House must remember that whatever information comes to us, people outside are innocent until proven guilty. We must conduct ourselves accordingly.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Will the Leader of the House make time available for a full debate on the future of St Helier hospital, which I know he would welcome? In response to a question I put to the Chancellor, he said the Government will support the project. Subsequently, I received a letter from the Secretary of State for Health who said that he will not.

[Chris Grayling]

The future of local hospital services is indeed very close to my heart, since St Helier is part of a trust that includes Epsom hospital. My prime concern is to make sure we retain services in our areas that are right for our constituents. I want them to have first-class services and I want the right treatments to be available to them. The right hon. Gentleman can be absolutely sure that I will continue to monitor carefully the future of the trust. He will have the opportunity to raise the question directly with the Chancellor at Treasury questions next week.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

May we have a debate on civilian use of remote-controlled aircraft or unmanned aerial vehicles near major airports such as Gatwick, as they pose an increasing safety risk and a potential security risk?

[Chris Grayling]

This is a very significant issue. The availability of drones is now making this a very real problem. The Civil Aviation Authority is looking at it carefully at the moment. Transport questions will be next Thursday and I encourage my hon. Friend to make sure Ministers keep focused on this issue.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

People in my constituency and the surrounding constituencies are worried that hospital services are being reduced in our area. May we have a debate on the ill-founded proposal from NHS England to transfer neo-natal services from the high performing North Tees hospital to the South Tees hospital, which currently has major performance problems?

[Chris Grayling]

As somebody who has always been concerned about hospital services in my area, I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. Given the structure of the health service, I have found it most helpful to engage local GPs in a discussion. Indeed, I have found them very useful allies in ensuring that the local service configuration remains what people want.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

You know better than anybody, Mr Speaker, that one of my favourite days of the year in this House is when we debate international women’s day. On 19 November, it is international men’s day. In the interests of gender equality, which I know many Members take very seriously, will the Leader of the House agree to a debate in this Chamber on international men’s day, just as we have a debate on international women’s day?

[Chris Grayling]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on being such an effective champion of equality in this House. I was not aware of international men’s day, but I will look very carefully at the suggestion he makes.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

The draft guidance released by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence not to approve Translarna was devastating news for the boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy who need still to be able to walk in order to access the treatment. Will the Leader of the House seek a statement from the Department of Health, or even allocate time for a debate, on Translarna?

[Chris Grayling]

It is always a difficult balance when new drugs come on stream. The role of NICE is to evaluate whether such drugs really can make the difference that is sometimes suggested by those producing them. That can often lead to very difficult, unhappy and challenging decisions. We, as politicians, are not really in a position to judge the rights and the wrongs of the effectiveness of drugs. What I will always do is ensure that such concerns are raised with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, so that he is aware of them. I am only too well aware of what a terrible disease this is. A number of children in my constituency are affected and, like the hon. Lady, I want them to receive the best possible treatment, but of course NICE has to take difficult decisions as well.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

May we have a debate on first wave academies? The Voyager academy in Walton, Peterborough, administered by the Comberton academy trust, recorded catastrophic GCSE results last summer—19% grades A* to E—but nevertheless the regional commissioner has failed to take proper action to remove the trust sponsors. Will my right hon. Friend have a word with our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education to encourage her to use her powers to intervene and sack failing academies for the benefit of my constituents in Walton and across Peterborough?

[Chris Grayling]

I will indeed do that. The measures passing through both Houses at the moment are designed to make sure we can deal with failing schools as effectively as possible. It is important that we celebrate the success of our education system while being willing to act when it is not there. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be before the House on Monday, and I encourage my hon. Friend to raise this issue then as well.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The Leader of the House will be aware that the air accident investigations branch is publishing a report tomorrow on the Clutha helicopter crash in Glasgow, in which 10 people lost their lives on 29 November 2013. Will he grant a debate on this tragedy and the report on the lessons to be learned from it, particularly given the implications for the safety of helicopters?

[Chris Grayling]

I caution Members to wait for the report to come out. It was a tragic incident and lessons must absolutely be learned, but let us wait for the report. If lessons or questions arise from it that need to be discussed in the House, those in the Department for Transport and I will give careful consideration to how that can best be done.

[Mr Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)]

NatWest bank in my constituency is planning to close its Hayling Island branch. This follows closures in Leigh Park and Emsworth. Will the Leader of the House grant a debate on bank branch closures? Banks must remain at the heart of our successful and booming high streets.

[Chris Grayling]

Having experienced several bank closures in my own constituency recently, I understand my hon. Friend’s point. Of course, most of us now bank online, so branches are not always viable, but they can be a central part of a local high street and community. The responsible Treasury Minister is before the House on Tuesday, and I encourage my hon. Friend to make his point then so that we can do everything possible to preserve local banking.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Now that the Ministry of Justice consultation on proposed court closures in Wales and England has closed, may we have a debate in Government time, or at least an oral statement, so that those of us who have significant concerns about the effect of these proposals on the communities we represent can put them on the record?

[Chris Grayling]

I will ensure that that point is made to my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor. Of course, these are difficult decisions, and I am sure he will want to make sure he gives hon. Members on both sides the opportunity to raise their concerns with him.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

Love the Lorry week starts on Monday, and the Road Haulage Association estimates that 45,000 drivers will retire in the next few years, causing an acute shortage of drivers. May we have a debate on the state of our road haulage industry?

[Chris Grayling]

I know that this is a matter of great concern to my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department for Transport. I hope that the Government’s focus on apprenticeships will provide a vehicle to bring more people into this important industry, which is a lifeline for many businesses in the country. We must do everything we can to ensure a steady flow of new drivers.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the costs of the options appraisal report on the Palace of Westminster refurbishment works? I politely remind him that I requested this information from him on 9 July. Perhaps he could furnish colleagues with that information in a written or oral statement.

[Chris Grayling]

It is technically a matter for the House of Commons Commission to release that information, to which he will have access as a member of the Committee of both Houses that is studying these issues. As co-Chair of that Committee, I do not want any secrecy around what we are doing; I want it to be transparent. I have a simple goal: to deliver a solution that protects the integrity and historic nature of the building but in a way that causes minimal disruption to the workings of Parliament and offers the best possible value for the taxpayer.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

There are communities in the middle east facing persecution for their beliefs, including the Baha’is and Yazidis in Iraq, but there are also good examples of tolerance and co-existence, such as in Bahrain. In the capital, Manama, there are 19 churches, three Hindu temples and a synagogue, all within close proximity to one another. This shows tolerance and freedom. May we have an urgent debate on the Floor of the House to discuss religious freedom and—a point I made earlier—the Baha’is in Iran.

[Chris Grayling]

Religious persecution, wherever it takes place, is utterly and totally unacceptable. I think we should all be particularly distressed at the moment at the way in which minority religions—Christian, Yazidi and others—are being treated so brutally by ISIL. If ever there were a justification for what we are seeking to do in the military action we are taking in Iraq, it would be the sight of what happened to the Yazidi community and the extraordinarily brutal way in which young women have been taken as sex slaves. That is a kind of evil that we should always stand up against.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

When can we debate early-day motion 599?

[That this House judges the Chinese investment in Hinkley Point C to be an act of desperation to rescue the failed EPR design after all prudent investors, including Centrica, have fled; is appalled by catastrophic delays and financial losses at all other EPR reactors; notes that Flamanville is six years late and costs had tripled to 10.5 billion euros and the Finnish EPR is seven years late and four billion euros over budget; and believes gifting China with unparalleled rights over UK nuclear development will seriously debilitate the UK’s future economy.]

It deals with the disastrous record of EPR nuclear reactors, none of which works. One is five years late, the other seven years late; one €4 billion over budget and the other €10 billion over budget. As all the sensible investors have fled from the Hinkley Point future disaster, should not Chinese investment be judged for what it is—a cynical sprat to catch the mackerel of control in perpetuity of the British nuclear industry, which will greatly debilitate the future economy and rob us of future jobs?

[Chris Grayling]

No, I do not believe that to be the case. The first thing to say, of course, is that this project is being led by the French. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that one reason why we do not have a nuclear power station building capability in this country is that, under last Labour Government, Gordon Brown sold it.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House allow MPs the opportunity to discuss the proper role of parliamentary privilege and whether it has been abused under a partisan campaign by any Member of this House?

[Chris Grayling]

I should apologise for not answering the question from the shadow Leader of the House about the Privileges Committee, which is due to be set up in the next few days. Members will know that it tends to mirror the Standards Committee in that the parliamentary Members are the same. The Standards Committee has to be established before the Privileges Committee can be. As I say, the Privileges Committee is due to be set up in the next few days and, by the sound of it and from experience of its work, it has quite a big project still ahead of it.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I would like to associate myself and my party with the fine tribute you paid, Mr Speaker, to Michael Meacher. I am sure that the high esteem in which he was held across the entire House will be of some comfort to his family.

When a statement is brought forward about the recent visit—successful visit—by the President of the People’s Republic of China, will the Leader of the House ensure that some comment is made about our agri-food trade with the country? Many promises have been made over the years to include pork and other food produce being exported to China, but very little has been delivered. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that some comment is made and that the matter is urgently brought to the attention of the Prime Minister during the current talks?

[Chris Grayling]

I will most certainly ensure that the attention of the Prime Minister and his office is brought to this. We are keen to find all avenues for expanding our trade—both with China and, indeed, other international partners such as India, which is why we are looking forward so much, among other reasons, to the visit of the Indian Prime Minister. I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s point, and will make sure that it is drawn to the Prime Minister’s attention.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

I have recently been informed that the annual inflation rate in the transport construction sector is around 19%, while general inflation is running at zero. This is because of the threat of HS2, sucking up all the required materials and labour for future years. May we have a debate about the impact of the HS2 project on the cost of improvements to conventional rail and other infrastructure projects going forward?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I will make sure that my right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary is aware of his concerns. I have to say that this a challenge of success rather than failure. This Government are spending substantial amounts of money on infrastructure. If we are creating demand problems, they will, I hope, create an opportunity for new businesses to emerge to service that work. I think we should be proud that we are delivering infrastructure improvements to this country—something that it has waited for much too long.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on freedom of speech in the workplace? Given that cleaners working for contractors in the Foreign Office have been disciplined for what is seen as the “crime” of asking for a living wage, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the Foreign Secretary to attend that debate so that we can express our dismay at what has happened? Will he draw this to the attention of other Ministers to ensure that no contractors working in Government offices treat their workers in this way in future?

[Chris Grayling]

I can only speak as a Minister, but I would not countenance circumstances in which anyone working in my Department was unable to raise concerns about their terms and conditions. I do not know the details of the situation in the Foreign Office, but I know my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary very well, and I am sure that he shares my view.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

Would my right hon. Friend consider granting a debate on parliamentary privilege, given that comments made by an hon. Member have formed part of what a serving police officer has called a “baseless witch-hunt”?

[Chris Grayling]

I think that the extraordinary situation that the House faces over the conduct of the hon. Gentleman will prompt a general debate in the House about the behaviour of Members of Parliament and the way in which privilege works and is used. I also think that, most immediately, it is important for the individual case to be dealt with, and I am confident that it will be, but once that has happened we shall have to ask some serious questions about what has taken place, especially in view of the fact that it has been carried out by someone with such a senior rank in the House.

[Callum McCaig (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

On Tuesday next week, a statutory instrument, the Onshore Hydraulic Fracturing (Protected Areas) Regulations 2015, will be discussed. It would allow fracking wells to be drilled through protected groundwater source areas, which I think would horrify a number of Members. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the debate to take place in the Chamber, so that all Members can take part in it?

[Chris Grayling]

In a previous role, I was the Minister responsible for the Health and Safety Executive, which is in turn responsible for safety standards throughout our energy industry. I believe, and the Government believe, that fracking is a necessary part of providing a sustainable supply of energy for the future, but we also believe that we have world-leading standards of safety in works through the industry. For those reasons, I simply do not share the hon. Gentleman’s concern.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

With Trafalgar day just past, I am sure that Members in all parts of the House will welcome the launch of the Joining Forces credit union, which will offer affordable credit products to people serving in our armed forces, to veterans, and to those people’s families. Will the Leader of the House provide time for a debate so that Members throughout the House can draw attention to the availability of the new credit union, and will he join me in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) and our hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) for their long campaign to secure a credit union for the armed forces?

[Chris Grayling]

What we learn about during sessions such as this is the great work done by individual Members of Parliament to make a difference. That gives the lie to what was said earlier by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) about the attitude of our party. What we have in our party is a group of representatives of their constituencies who work to make a difference both for local groups and for those who have served our country, and we should be proud of those efforts.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

May we have a further statement on Government policy as it relates to Syrian refugees? I have constituents who were born in the United Kingdom, but whose parents and sister are Syrian nationals still trapped in Syria. My constituents can support their parents here in the UK without any recourse to public funds, and normally they would simply apply for a visa, but Syria clearly does not represent a normal set of circumstances. Will the Leader of the House make some inquiries within the Government, and perhaps send me in writing any advice that I can pass on to my constituents?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I will certainly pass on the hon. Gentleman’s concerns to the Home Office. What he has said, however, shows why it is so important that we are supporting refugees in the neighbouring countries and providing a refuge for a number of refugees from the camps there, rather than simply taking some of those who have been strong enough and able enough to find their way to Europe.

[Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)]

Recent events involving the use of parliamentary privilege when serious allegations have been made clearly serve as a cautionary tale for all of us in the House when we name individuals, but it is also clear to anyone who reads the books written by Paul Gambaccini and Jim Davidson that an investigation carried out in the full glare of publicity makes the terror and trauma worse. May we have a statement from the Home Office about what action may be taken to protect those against whom allegations are made?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and one that he perhaps more than anyone in this House understands well. It is important that we have a police force with the freedom to take actions in the interests of justice. I think of the case of Stuart Hall, where allegations that appeared to be questionable initially proved to be very serious and very substantial once his name entered the public arena. I was brought up in a world where the reporting tended to be, “A 30-year-old man is helping police with inquiries,” not the publishing of the full details of the person arrested. Unless our police forces, and indeed all involved in our criminal justice system, are absolutely certain that there is very good reason for putting the name of a suspect into the public arena, they need to think very long and hard before doing so. That lesson needs to be at the heart of the way in which this House behaves, but clearly in recent times it has not been.

[Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)]

The Government have made a number of attacks since the election in May on support for green energy. In the light of reports this morning that our current emissions targets may be insufficient to meet the challenge on global warming, may we have a debate in Government time on support for sustainable energy?

[Chris Grayling]

In the past few months the level of electricity generation from sustainable sources in this country has passed 25%. That is far in excess of anything that was envisaged in the early days by the previous Labour Government, so I do not think we have anything to be embarrassed about in our record on sustainable and renewable energy. Also, in a week when the Labour party has been complaining of the high energy costs faced by our steel producers, it is surely right and proper that we in this country do not seek to impose on consumers an ever higher burden of support from either the taxpayer or from bill payers without recognition of the impact that that can have.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

Following the questions raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Salisbury (John Glen), for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson), for Bolton West (Chris Green), for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) and others, it is clear to the Leader of the House that many hon. Members wish to have a debate on parliamentary privilege, particularly when we now hear that comments made in this House led to an unlawful interview and what has been described as a baseless witch hunt.

[Chris Grayling]

I can see that feelings on this issue are very strong. It is important to allow the Select Committee to do its work first, but I will take the comments of hon. Members away today and think about how best to address them. These are very serious and important matters. When we have such a clear example of questionable conduct in this House, we clearly have to learn the lessons from it.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

The Ministry of Defence’s latest published list of military assets includes jets officially retired in 1993 and grounded helicopters and tanks retired in the mid-1990s. Clearly it would be dangerous to rely on this information, so may we have a statement or debate in Government time on the UK’s real military capability?

[Chris Grayling]

I suspect that it is as simple as the armed forces retaining old equipment for training purposes. That is what happens at airports for fire crews and in training in a variety of fields. The hon. Lady is perhaps seeing things that are not actually present.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

The crisis facing the steel industry has brought into sharp focus the importance of buying British products. May we have a full debate in Government time on how procurement policy across Government can better help our industries and give them a welcome boost?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and in the case of steel we have worked hard to do that already. I am pleased that 97% of the contracts for steel for Crossrail, the biggest engineering project in Europe, have gone to British sources. It is important that we continue to focus our procurement policy, where we possibly can, on local sourcing and the support of local business. I commit absolutely to that being at the heart of what the Government are trying to do, particularly in what has happened to our steel industry.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Since the Leader of the House is so confident about his Government’s record on sustainable energy, may we have a debate on Government plans to cut energy feed-in tariffs and the reports that that will cost us 20,000 jobs, devastate the rooftop solar industry and lead to 1 million fewer solar panel installations by 2020? That is not very green or efficient.

[Chris Grayling]

We take decisions on the basis of what is workable and affordable, and we will see whether the impact of the policy is quite what the hon. Gentleman suggests.

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

On Tuesday, the Business Secretary failed to mention the Scottish steel industry once in answering an urgent question on job losses in the industry. Will the Leader of the House now secure an urgent debate in Government time on the future of the industry in Scotland, so that we can hold this Government to account for the promises made but not delivered?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, when we talk about the international challenges facing this country, we are referring to the UK as a whole. That is a given. Many aspects of the way in which we as a Government interact with the steel industry are devolved. Transport is an example. It is disappointing that, while we are working hard in England and Wales to ensure that we source as much steel for transport projects as possible from local suppliers, the same has not happened in Scotland, whose own Administration have responsibility in this area.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The reply from the Leader of the House to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) made it quite clear that he did not understand the issues surrounding the state pensions of ladies born in the 1950s. May I politely suggest that he meet representatives of Women Against State Pension Inequality, in order to understand that they are not against the equalisation of the state pension age, but that this is an equality issue? Those women have been clobbered not once but twice, and there is no transition. When he has met them, will he change his mind about having a debate on the matter?

[Chris Grayling]

I have already had discussions with people who are affected, and I understand why they are frustrated, but the Government have to take difficult decisions about transitions and increasing the state pension age. That is what took place under the previous Government, and it is taking place under this Government. When life expectancy rises sharply—which is good—we have to raise the state pension age, and we have to take difficult decisions about how to do that.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

Since I was elected in May, 44 new Lords have been sworn in to the other place, despite this Government’s pledge to cut the cost of politics. Given that, yesterday, even the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) expressed his concern about the performance of the other place, will the Leader of the House now agree, on the second time of asking, to bring forward a debate in Government time on the merits, performance and value for money of the other place—because we might now all agree on abolition?

[Chris Grayling]

We are definitely back to the status quo, following the brief glimpse of support for the other place from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). This issue has been debated exhaustively in recent years. There have been at least three debates on it since I was elected, and there have been discussions in the other place. I have no doubt that the other place will in due course have further thoughts about how it should evolve and develop, but this Government’s greater priority at the moment is to sort out our economic challenges and address some of the other issues that our nation is facing. Frankly, reform of the House of Lords is not at the top of our priority list right now.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The Government will carry out a review of the new system next year, subject to approval by the House today, and I will consult the relevant Committees, including those in the House of Lords, should this House agree the proposed changes. We will consider carefully any observations and recommendations that arise from those reviews, to ensure that the English votes mechanism works as effectively as possible. I expect that the House will return to this issue at that time.

[Andrew Rosindell]

What steps will my right hon. Friend take to ensure that measures on English votes for English laws do not damage the fabric of our cherished Union and lead to a situation where this House could be deemed to be the representative assembly of England, rather than the House of Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and that is why we have chosen not to go down the path of an English Parliament. As we devolve more powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—we committed to that in our manifesto and we believe it is the right thing to do—we seek to ensure that the English also have a role in that devolution, but not in a way that removes any Member from any part of the current debating process in this Chamber.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) for probably the first time in my life, so that is a good thing. Will the Leader of the House ensure that in any review he undertakes, the position of border constituencies such as mine in Wales, and those in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, are reflected carefully so that Mr Speaker’s tight discretion on determining what is an English-only Bill is reviewed in the light of pressures on my constituents?

[Chris Grayling]

The review and the work we do in the next 12 months should take into account all concerns raised by Members. I give the right hon. Gentleman a commitment that we will of course listen to views from across the House on this and other matters.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I, too, find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). Does the Leader of the House not accept that unless he is very careful in the drafting of the new rules, there will be the unintended consequence of creating certain members of the other place who will be more powerful than Members of this House?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not accept that. We have taken great care in drafting the rules. We will monitor very carefully their operation in practice. If the hon. Gentleman and other Members have concerns over the next 12 months, they will undoubtedly want to raise them as part of our review process.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

2. If he will take steps to ensure that proposals for English votes for English laws do not give English-only certification to Bills or clauses with consequential implications for Scotland.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The proposed changes to Standing Orders would mean that clauses or schedules that Mr Speaker considers to relate exclusively to England, or to England and Wales, disregarding any minor or consequential effects for other parts of the United Kingdom, will be subject to the new legislative process.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Minor and consequential.

[Chris Grayling]

Minor or consequential, and consequential. This will include any potential spending effects. Any decision on spending that will have a material impact on the allocation of funding to the devolved Administrations will always be taken by a vote of the whole House of Commons through either the estimates process or a money resolution.

[Kirsty Blackman]

In response to a question from me in June, the Leader of the House said that the Scotland Bill could be considered as “English votes for English laws”. When we debated EVEL on 15 July, the Leader of the House committed to producing a list of measures in the Queen’s Speech that he thought might be subject to EVEL. I would very much appreciate it if he could tell me where I could find that list.

[Chris Grayling]

It will of course be a matter for you, Mr Speaker, to decide which measures are subject to this process. It is, as I will tell the House this afternoon, my view that there are probably two or three remaining Bills in this Session that are likely to prompt you to issue a certification decision. All this, of course, is entirely academic until the House has decided whether to accept the Standing Orders.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Leader of the House mentioned the estimates process. Has he discussed with the Treasury the likely increased scrutiny of the estimates process as a result of the can of worms he is opening up with English votes for English laws? The Procedure Committee is very much looking forward to Treasury officials appearing before it. I wonder whether Treasury officials are looking forward to appearing.

[Chris Grayling]

Dare I say that it is Treasury questions next week and the hon. Gentleman is of course able to put that question to the Treasury?

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

3. If he will make it his policy that the House not adjourn for the period covered by the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat party autumn conferences.

English Votes for English Laws

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Written Statements

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The Government wrote to the Procedure Committee on Monday 19 October 2015, in response to the publication of its report on “Government proposals for English votes for English laws Standing Orders: interim report” (First report of Session 2015-16—HC410). The Government are grateful to the Chair of that Committee for agreeing that the Government response, reproduced below, could be unusually published by written ministerial statement. This allows speedy and transparent publication of this information to Members of Parliament, and others, ahead of the debate on the issue on Thursday 22 October 2015.

The Government are grateful to the Procedure Committee for publishing its interim report in advance of the debate and decision on the proposed Standing Order changes to implement English votes for English laws on 22 October 2015. The Government are also grateful that the Committee was willing to indicate its initial findings by way of a letter of 10 September to the Leader of the House of Commons, subsequently published on its website. This letter was important in allowing the Government to reflect the Committee’s views in the updated proposals published on 15 October 2015.

The Government’s proposals deliver their commitment to introduce English votes for English laws. The Government are determined to strengthen the Union and are devolving more powers across the United Kingdom, and now is the time to give the English more say. These plans provide a fair balance by giving England, and Wales, more control over decisions which they alone are affected by, while ensuring that Westminster continues to be a place where those from across the UK govern in the best interests of those living within the Union.

The Government’s responses to the recommendations of the Committee are indicated below.

Recommendation: In the experimental phase following the introduction of any new Standing Orders, we consider that the Speaker should not give the reasons for his decisions on certification to the House. We nevertheless consider it inappropriate that the role of the Speaker should be confined in this way through Standing Orders proposed by the Government, and we recommend that the matter should be left to the Speaker’s discretion, so that he may choose to enter into the spirit of this experiment by being himself free to experiment. (Paragraph 45)

The Government are content to give the Speaker the discretion on whether or not to give reasons for his decisions on certification to the House. The Government will reflect this when it tables updated Standing Orders by omitting the phrase

“without giving the reasons for the decision”

from Standing Orders 83J(9), 83L(6), 830(10), 83P(5) and 83U(7). We note the Committee’s view, following evidence, that the Speaker should not give the reasons for his decisions on certification during the experimental phase following the introduction of any new Standing Orders.

Recommendation: We recommend that provision should be made for the Speaker to consult two senior members of the Panel of Chairs, to be appointed by the Committee of Selection, if he chooses before determining his opinion on certification, but should not be obliged to do so. This provision would, we believe, help underpin the House’s confidence in the Speaker’s decisions. (Paragraph 47)

In response to earlier discussions, the Government considered this issue and the updated Standing Orders published on 15 October 2015 contain an additional sub-paragraph relating to the certification of Bills, clauses and schedules (SO 83J (8)(a)), and similar additional paragraphs at SO 83P(4), S0 83U(6), SO 83L(8) and SO 830(13).

These new additions enable the Speaker to consult two members of the Panel of Chairs to assist him in the process of certifying Bills, clauses and schedules as relating exclusively to England or England and Wales, should he wish to do so. The two members of the Panel of Chairs should be appointed on a Session-by-Session basis by resolution of the Committee of Selection. We agree that this will help underpin the House’s confidence in the Speaker’s decisions.

Recommendation: We recommend that, in considering the interaction of the proposed new procedures with the present procedure for programming stages of Bills, the Government should allocate set periods of time for the consideration of amendments or groups of amendments, for elements of consent stage and for Third Reading. Without such protected time, there is a high risk of bringing the procedures of the House in considering legislation into further disrepute and of failing to show the electorate that we take our task of making the law seriously and are prepared to give sufficient time to do the task properly. (Paragraph 92)

The Government accept the principle of the Committee’s recommendation, that adequate time should be given for the scrutiny of legislation. The Government will consider all legislation on a case-by-case basis and note that the Committee will undertake detailed monitoring of the time spent on the various elements of the new consent stage, as part of its review following the introduction of the revised Standing Orders.

Recommendation: We recommend that the Government amend their proposals for Standing Orders to provide that Bills and instruments be sent for the Speaker’s decision on certification only after the House has debated and agreed to a motion to this effect moved by a Minister of the Crown. (Paragraph 98)

The Government have given this matter careful consideration, and note the Committee’s desire to ensure that the House’s time and resources are allocated to items which are politically important. However, the Committee also recognises that there are implications for the development and drafting of legislation, which needs to be undertaken in the anticipation that these proposals will apply to it. The requirement for a separate decision having the effect of applying the procedure to Bills and instruments could add additional time and complexity to the system, and introduce uncertainty. The consequence of these proposals on the resources of the House, in the longer term, is a matter that the Procedure Committee may wish to consider.

Recommendation: We recommend that Departments should as a matter of course instruct parliamentary counsel to draft legislation intended to apply to England or England and Wales only with the express intention of meeting the certification tests. (Paragraph 99)

The Government will be as helpful as possible to Members in identifying those provisions of a Bill which are likely to be certified. In practice, this information will be in supplementary material to a Bill such as the explanatory notes rather than in the Bill itself but parliamentary counsel will, so far as practicable, take account of the need to assist Members when drafting the Bill.

Recommendation: We recommend that the Government’s proposals be amended to provide that certified amendments, new clauses and new schedules, whether made in Committee or proposed on Report, only pass Report stage if they are unopposed or, if put to a vote, when an appropriate double majority in the House has voted in favour. (Paragraph 100)

The Committee’s proposal to introduce double majority voting as suggested aims to make the procedure simpler. However, the Government believe that the proposal would actually increase complexity and unbalance the proposals away from Members of the relevant constituencies having a specific body through which to have their voice heard.

As outlined in the report, the suggestion does not indicate how it would deal with clearing unamended certified provisions at Report. In the absence of a clause or schedule stand part debate, a Legislative Grand Committee would still be needed to clear these.

Where there has been amendment since Second Reading, a different sort of certification would be required depending upon whether the amendment had been made in Committee or on Report. If made in Committee, it is not clear what the subject of the vote would be at Report stage. It could not be on the clause/schedule as amended because there is no clause/schedule stand part debate. A separate procedure would need to be devised and separate votes at Report on clauses amended in Committee which would alter the nature of Report stage.

For amendments proposed on Report, there would be added complexity because these amendments would have to be certified before, and as they are tabled, during Report stage. A new process would have to be devised for certifying amendments because, except on Commons consideration of Lords amendments and for special cases (S083L(4)), it is Bills, and clauses and schedules that are already in Bills, that are certified and not amendments. The test for the amendments would have to be whether, if agreed, they would produce an England or England and Wales clause or schedule. This would not be easy for Members to follow during what is the most important stage of the Bill.

Finally, the proposal suggests, if there were a disagreement between the House and Members of the relevant constituencies, that there would be a full and nuanced debate on the substantive issues at the Legislative Grand Committee stage. However, this would introduce another stage to the process because, even after this, there would still have to be a process for resolving the disagreement.

Recommendation: We recommend that the Government’s proposals should be amended to make it clear that all Members can speak and intervene in Legislative Grand Committee proceedings in the Chamber at the discretion of the Chair. We note that in common with analogous proceedings in Delegated Legislation Committees, Members who are not members of a Legislative Grand Committee will not be able to move motions, propose amendments or vote. (Paragraph 103)

The Government were grateful for an indication of the Committee’s view on this issue in its letter of 10 September 2015 and was able to reflect this in the updated proposals published on 15 October 2015. New text has been proposed in paragraph SO 83W(8) in the Standing Order relating to Legislative Grand Committees. This paragraph makes clear that any MP may take part in debate at Legislative Grand Committee stage, though only members of the Legislative Grand Committee may vote, make any motion or move any amendment.

Recommendation: We recommend that the procedures be piloted on statutory instruments, and no more than three Bills, in the remainder of the 2015-16 Session. The House should be invited to agree to the Bills to be piloted under these procedures, using the process we have outlined in paragraph 98 above. (Paragraph 104)

The reality is that it seems likely that there will be a limited number of Bills to which the proposals will apply in the remainder of this Session of Parliament, and the Government and relevant Committees will be able to undertake the necessary review based on the experience of those Bills and instruments. While this is not a pilot in the exact terms of the Committee’s report, the outcome will be very similar.

Recommendation: We recommend that the new procedures should not be applied to any Bill in the 2016-17 Session until after we have reported on our evaluation. (Paragraph 105).

The Government are seeking to implement a manifesto commitment. Introducing a system in the knowledge that it will be concluded at the end of a Session and then reintroduced, possibly in amended form, halfway through the next Session of Parliament may cause confusion for Members of Parliament, Government Departments and members of the public, not least in the example of carry-over Bills, which might be part way through their amending stage at the end of the current Session.

The Government take the work of the Procedure Committee seriously, and will reflect fully on any evaluation of the proposals the Committee may choose to undertake in order to make the proposals work as effectively as possible.

[HCWS251]

Business of the House

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The business for the week commencing 19 October will be as follows:

Monday 19 October—Second Reading of the Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]. I also expect my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to make a statement following the European Council.

Tuesday 20 October—Opposition day (7th allotted day). There will be a debate on tax credits on an Opposition motion.

Wednesday 21 October—Consideration in Committee of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [Lords] (day 1).

Thursday 22 October—A motion to approve standing orders relating to English votes for English laws.

Friday 23 October—Private Members’ Bills.

The provisional business for the week commencing 26 October will include:

Monday 26 October—Remaining stages of the Finance Bill.

I should also like to inform the House about some debates to be held in Westminster Hall.

Monday 19 October—Debate on an e-petition relating to immigration.

Tuesday 20 October—Debate on the availability of cancer drugs.

Thursday 22 October—General debate on the conflict in Yemen, followed by a debate on fire safety measures in school buildings.

Monday 26 October—Debate on an e-petition relating to term-time leave from school for holidays.

As you heard, Mr Speaker, I announced that next Thursday we will be debating and voting on the Government’s proposals to allow for English votes for English laws. I should just inform right hon. and hon. Members that I have this morning published updated proposals for changes to the Standing Orders, reflecting the discussions and feedback I have had since July, as well as the letter I received from the Procedure Committee in September, which is published on its website. The revisions are clearly indicated in the new document. I have published these proposals today to give the House further time to consider them before the debate. I am also conscious that the Procedure Committee is due to report on Monday, and I will not be tabling the final proposed Standing Order changes until I have read that report and been able to make any final changes before we table them, probably on Monday night.

[Chris Bryant]

We should first pay tribute to two great men who have died since the last business questions: Denis Healey, the greatest Prime Minister this country never had, a man who showed that politicians need never be automata; and Geoffrey Howe, a man I had the great honour to know closely because of all the campaigning work we did together to keep Britain at the heart of Europe. As Robin Cook once quipped, because Geoffrey had been knighted and made a peer, and his lovely wife Elspeth had been made a Baroness, she was “once, twice, three times a lady”. That is a tribute to Robin Cook, too.

Deep in the bowels of the parliamentary estate lies a small, sweaty airless room where people go to spin. It is in the gym, and it is called the John Bercow spin studio! I have never seen the Leader of the House in the gym—I do not suppose anybody has—but it seems clear that his colleagues have been spending a great deal of time in the spin studio.

When the Prime Minister was asked yesterday when exactly he knew about Lord Ashcroft’s tax status, he started spinning away like a top, stuck his fingers in his ears and simply refused to answer. It got even worse later in the day when his official spokesman was asked precisely the same question 11 times—yes, 11 times—but answer came there none. Silence; tumbleweed. Can the Leader of the House therefore tell us when precisely the Prime Minister learned about Lord Ashcroft’s tax status? Was it as the Prime Minister declared in this House, or was it as Lord Ashcroft declared in his book? I know that the Leader of the House does not like books—for prisoners or anybody else—but there we are.

One might have thought that it was perfectly reasonable to ask the British Minister with responsibility for Syrian refugees how many Syrian refugees had come to Britain. One might have thought that it was the one thing that that Minister would know, but when he was asked this simple question seven times—yes, seven times—by the Home Affairs Select Committee, he refused to answer point blank. He even maintained that he knew the answer, but just did not want to tell anyone—like an eight-year-old hiding his homework from his older sister. So can the Leader of the House now tell us how many Syrian refugees have come to Britain?

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when we will have a proper debate on Syria? The country, to be honest, is crying out for leadership on this issue. The Prime Minister seems to think that a consensus will miraculously develop on what the UK’s response should be. We have heard press briefing after press briefing, but millions of people have been displaced, thousands have lost their lives—thanks to Putin, Assad and ISIL—and all the while, the UK’s diplomatic, humanitarian and military policy on Syria remains a blank page. So when will the Government come to the House with a proper plan of action on Syria?

Mr Speaker, it is clear that the Government’s

“changes to tax credits have been somewhat under-scrutinised. The changes are both eye-wateringly painful to those affected, but also reverse a key policy platform of the last five years—namely, making work pay.”

Those are not my words, but those of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), a Conservative Member, and he is absolutely right. Millions of working people are terrified of what will happen to their family finances next year. About 3.2 million families will be hit. A two-parent family with one adult working full time and the other doing 20 hours a week on the minimum wage will get a £1,100 annual pay rise, but even after that, will be £1,800 worse off and out of pocket. We all know that the Government are going to back down in the end on this issue, so will they just get a move on? Will the Leader of the House be the champion of this House and fight for a change on the tax credits cuts.

Yesterday, the Government were quite exceptionally defeated in the Lords on a motion condemning the mandatory court charges that were introduced by the right hon. Gentleman when he was the Injustice—sorry, Justice Secretary. One magistrate has written to me to say that because of these mandatory charges, many innocent people are pleading guilty. He says that he recently had to impose—he had to, because it is mandatory on the magistrates—the court charge of £150 on a homeless man who had stolen a £1.90 sandwich from Sainsbury’s. That is not the rule of law; it is cruel injustice.

The new Justice Secretary has already overturned the Leader of the House’s ban on books for prisoners. He has put a halt on the right hon. Gentleman’s plan to build Saudi Arabia’s jails and execution centres, and we read in the press today that the new Justice Secretary is now going to beat a retreat on these cruel mandatory court charges. Just in case the Leader of the House is to be completely airbrushed from history, can we have a debate on his legacy as former Justice Secretary? It need not be a very long debate.

The Leader of the House has announced that we will debate his EVEL—English votes for English laws—proposals next Thursday. I still believe that they are a dog’s breakfast. However, during the last session of business questions I asked the Leader of the House whether he had any intention of replying to the Lords message asking for a Joint Committee to be set up before the measures were voted on. It is exceptional for the House of Commons not to reply to such a message from their lordships. The Leader of the House chose not to reply, either to me in the House or to their lordships subsequently.

I know the right hon. Gentleman’s old school, the Royal Grammar School in High Wycombe, extremely well. When I was curate of the parish church I used to prepare the boys for confirmation at that school, so I know that they are taught good manners. Is it not time that the Leader of the House remembered his old RGS High Wycombe school lessons, and gave the Members of the House of Lords a proper response? Should he not reply, “Yes, we will not implement these changes until a Joint Committee of both Houses has been set up”?

Let me say finally that I am sure the whole House—every single Member—will want to wish Wales, Scotland and Ireland well in the rugby world cup this weekend, but especially Wales.

[Chris Grayling]

Let me begin by echoing the hon. Gentleman’s words about Denis Healey and Geoffrey Howe. They were two towering figures in the House, and they made a massive contribution to the national life of the country. They will be sorely missed by their families, their former colleagues, and all parliamentarians.

Let me also pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman. Last week, he was responsible for ensuring that three new plaques were placed on the wall of the Chamber for three Members who died in the first world war. It is absolutely appropriate that we remember parliamentarians who have given their lives in the interests of this country, and I commend the hon. Gentleman for doing that.

I hope the House will also remember that a service is being held in the chapel today, and I hope that, straight after business questions, you and I will go down there together, Mr Speaker. The service is being held to celebrate the life of Ian Gow, who, rightly, has a shield at the end of the Chamber—another man who gave his life in the service of this country. We remember him today as well.

The hon. Gentleman could perhaps be described as a beacon of stability in his party this week, and I commend him for that. He is a ship that is sailing steadily forward in a party that otherwise seems to be slightly on the chaotic side. Yesterday the shadow Chancellor announced five times his embarrassment at the U-turn that we had experienced. Moreover, during an interview on Channel 4 News—I do not know whether you saw it, Mr Speaker—the shadow City Minister first admitted that he had no idea what the deficit was, and then, after prolonged questioning, said that he had no idea when, or indeed whether, he had been able to go to the City. In fact, he had not been there at all.

The hon. Gentleman talked about spin, and about the John Bercow spin studio. I am afraid that, actually, the spin lessons in the House of Commons came from the Labour party when it was in government. The present Government have set out a clear plan, and this week we are implementing it. The hon. Gentleman talked about English votes for English laws. English votes for English laws was a manifesto commitment which we are implementing. Yesterday we debated devolution measures for England and Wales, a manifesto commitment which we are implementing. On Tuesday we debated the Immigration Bill, a manifesto commitment which we are implementing. So I will take no lessons from the Labour party about spin. This is a Government who are delivering what they promised.

The hon. Gentleman asked about Syria. We all take the situation in Syria enormously seriously. It is tragic and distressing beyond belief to see a country in such a state of chaos and ruins, and to see the human cost. I remind the hon. Gentleman, however, that we debated the subject for several days in September, and we will undoubtedly return to it when we need to. It is a matter that will be constantly in the minds of Ministers and the House, and we will continue to debate and discuss it at the appropriate moments.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the availability of time for a debate on tax credits. Again, I remind him that we had five days of debate on the subject following the summer Budget in July. He asked about English votes and the Lords message. He will have to wait for the debate next week, when I shall set out exactly how we plan to respond to all the issues that have been raised during the last few weeks and months.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about my legacy as Justice Secretary. I remind him that when the Labour party was in power—for 13 long years—if you had been in prison for less than 12 months, when you left you walked out of the door of that prison with £46 in your pocket and nothing else: no support, no guidance, nothing. It was shocking, it was a disgrace, and in all the years when the Labour Government had the money to do something about it, they did not. Well, as of last February, following the “Transforming rehabilitation” reforms, every single prisoner who leaves our jails will receive, for a minimum of a year, support, supervision and guidance. That is a massive change. It is a change I am proud of. It is a change that did not happen under the previous Government. It is a legacy that will be part of the social change that I think will mark the future view of this Government and what they achieved.

Finally, I echo the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the rugby world cup. In particular I offer my good wishes to Wales. May they do to Australia what unfortunately England were unable to do.

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

May I first thank the Leader of the House for his open and straightforward dealings with me as Chairman of the Procedure Committee? May I urge him, at this late stage, when he receives an embargoed copy of the Procedure Committee report tomorrow to seriously consider all our recommendations? They are not made lightly and I believe they will significantly improve the proposals in relation to English votes for English laws.

[Chris Grayling]

First, I thank my hon. Friend and all the members of the Procedure Committee. What I sought to do after the debates in the summer was respond to the requests of the House. We provided additional debating time and time for the Committee to look at these issues. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the collaborative way in which he has worked with me. He is bringing forward new ideas challenging the proposals, but it has been a productive discussion. I can tell the House today that I have already taken on board some of the recommendations to me in the letter that came from the Committee in September, and I shall be reading the report very carefully when it arrives on my desk tomorrow.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business for next week. May I too pay tribute to Geoffrey Howe and Denis Healey? I grew up in the 1970s when they were the absolute giants of this House, and many of us of that generation will remember them very fondly. I also thank the shadow Leader of the House for the three magnificent plaques we now have in the House. They are a fantastic addition.

We are back here after what is called the “conference recess”, but the third party of the United Kingdom is starting its conference today, which makes a mockery of the concept of the conference recess. Mr Speaker, I think that you, the Leader of the House and other interested parties should look long and hard at how we are organising the recesses over the summer period. That would find great support throughout the House.

Of course, we found out several things of course during the conference recess, some of them almost bizarre and utterly unmentionable, including the fact that the Leader of the House, probably in what is not a bizarre intervention, may possibly be seeking the leadership of the Conservative party. Apparently he will be the unity candidate for the Eurosceptics. I wish him good luck in that endeavour.

Next week we conclude the sorry saga of English votes for English laws. Over the past few months the Leader of the House has managed to convince absolutely no one, outwith the ranks of the Conservative party. The idea is opposed by every party in this House. It is opposed by every single legislative Assembly and Parliament in the whole of the UK. It is even opposed by the unelected cronies and donors from down the corridor, and the Leader of the House knows very well the views of Scottish MPs on this. I just wish he would have a quiet word with the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. Support for the Scottish Conservatives stands at about 12% in the opinion polls at present, and once they make Scottish MPs second-class MPs we can expect it to fall still further.

Yesterday, in points of order following Prime Minister’s questions, some very disturbing points were made on the ruling of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal on the Wilson doctrine. Several of us were incredulous at what was said: that it has no legal force and is nothing other than an ambiguous political statement, directly contradicting what the Prime Minister said on this issue only a few weeks ago. We absolutely require an urgent debate on this issue. I hope the Leader of the House will support any such initiative so that this is brought to the Floor of the House and we can hear from the Prime Minister exactly what he meant when he made that statement a few short weeks ago. We must approach this in a spirit of honesty, openness and transparency. I hope the whole House will support any initiative to ensure we get a debate on the Wilson doctrine and the worrying allegations that MPs are being spied on.

Lastly, the Government got their fiscal charter through last night. Congratulations to the Conservatives for once again, through their measures, picking on the poorest and most marginal and vulnerable in our community. Last night we saw three positions: the Conservatives’ position, backing the fiscal charter; the SNP position, opposing it with most of the Labour party supporting us; and there was a rebellious abstention, which I have never heard of in this House. I say to the Leader of the House and the Labour party that they will find those on the SNP Benches resolute in the objective of opposing the Tories. We hope the Labour party will unite and join us in that mission.

[Chris Grayling]

May I start by thanking the hon. Gentleman for his comments about Denis Healey and Geoffrey Howe and telling him how much we all regret keeping him away from his conference today? I am sure that he will be jumping on a train as soon as business questions are over and heading off to have a great time with his delegate colleagues.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of English votes for English laws. I must gently chide him on the way in which he and his party are approaching this matter. They keep coming up with the line that they will be excluded from certain votes as a result of the proposal. He knows, and I know, that that is not the case. What is more, he knows that I would not do that to him anyway. Although we spar across the Chamber, I have a great regard for him and we get on very well. Perhaps one day we will get to walk through the Division Lobby together—I know this is theoretical; it has not happened yet—and I would not dream of taking that opportunity away from either of us. Let me assure him again that on no occasion will he be excluded from a vote that he is currently able to take part in in this Chamber. That is really important for both of us and for our relationship.

The hon. Gentleman made a more serious point about the ruling in the court case yesterday. I remind him that two clear messages emerged from that case. First, the case was not successful; the court upheld the current situation. Secondly, it was made clear that all the activity was within the law. As Leader of the House, I take these issues very seriously and I would not be happy with the House being treated inappropriately. My ministerial colleagues and I will be keeping a careful watch over the matter.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the fiscal charter. Again I pay tribute to him: he is right to say that over the past few weeks the Scottish National party has formed a united front, voted consistently and behaved as one. He is also right to point out that the same cannot exactly be said of the Labour party. After last night, it is difficult to see where Labour is going. I am not sure what its policies are now, or whether a leadership coup is being planned for the near future. Of course, the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), has a track record in that regard. He was the person who pulled the trigger when Tony Blair went, and he was instrumental in pushing Gordon Brown out. Maybe it will be third time lucky—or unlucky, depending on where in the House you are sitting.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

At 4.25 pm yesterday in Westminster Hall, a unique event took place. For the first time, a question in Westminster Hall was not agreed to. Under subsection (13) of Standing Order No. 10, a motion should be brought to the House in those circumstances so that the House can then vote on it without further debate. I listened carefully when the Leader of the House announced the business for next week, but I did not hear him mention any such motion. Was that an omission that he would like to correct now?

[Chris Grayling]

I am aware of what took place yesterday, and I will be happy to discuss the matter with the Clerks and to write to my hon. Friend.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I thank the Leader of the House for the business statement. Members will be aware that we resumed on Monday following the conference recess with heavily subscribed debates on superfast broadband and the political situation at Stormont. The time available for those debates was curtailed, however, as a result of statements being made before the Back-Bench business commenced. I note that there was no mention in today’s business statement of any dates being allocated for Back-Bench business. I understand there is a possibility that 29 October will be allocated for that purpose, but that has not been confirmed. Will the Leader of the House confirm the next dates for Back-Bench business debates in the Chamber as soon as possible?

[Chris Grayling]

I will always seek to be as helpful as possible to the House and to the hon. Gentleman, and I can assure him that we will let him know the next dates as soon as possible and as far in advance as possible.

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

In two Bills before the House—the European Union Referendum Bill and the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill—amendments have been proposed both by this place and the other place to refer to a change in the age of the franchise. Does the Leader of the House agree with me that we should approach this debate properly and pay it proper attention rather than dealing with it piecemeal under other Bills?

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work that she is doing in and around youth engagement, which is very important to all of us from all parts of the House. Undoubtedly, this will be debated seriously, as indeed it should be because it is a very real issue, given the fact that 16 and 17-year-olds have the vote in Scotland. There are different views in this House, so of course the matter should be given the proper attention that it deserves.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Last week, the Tunisian national dialogue quartet received the Nobel prize for peace, but that country faces huge economic difficulties, especially in the tourism industry, in part owing to the travel advice of our Foreign Office. May we have an urgent debate or a statement on what we can do to help Tunisia, especially with regard to tourism?

[Chris Grayling]

We all have the greatest admiration for the prize winners in Tunisia and for all those who have worked so hard to make Tunisia a stable and peaceful country. The decision of the Foreign Office was taken with a heavy heart, because we understand the implications of it, but we also have a duty to look after the safety of British holidaymakers. The Foreign Secretary will be here on Tuesday, and I will ensure that he is aware of the right hon. Gentleman’s concern. This is a matter that will be under continuous review, as we all want to do the right thing by Tunisia.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

The Prime Minister said that the whole focus of the Government will be on implementing the Conservative manifesto of the last election. That manifesto said that we would toughen sentencing and create a victims law. From what I have seen so far, perhaps it would be helpful if the Leader of the House introduced the new Secretary of State for Justice to the manifesto. Will the Leader of the House tell us when the Government will bring forward their proposals from the manifesto to toughen sentencing and create a victims law?

[Chris Grayling]

The victims law is an important part of what we brought forward at the election. I can assure my hon. Friend that the intention of the Government is to fulfil their manifesto in full. We have a lot of business to get through, but I have no doubt that we will move on to that soon, and that it will make a difference.

[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

Among the remaining orders on the Order Paper, the Leader of the House will see that there is a motion signed by Members of all parties saying that this House concurs with the Lords Message that a joint committee be set up to look at the constitutional implications of English votes for English laws. It is 104 years since this House has refused to acknowledge or answer a message from the House of Lords. Will the Leader of the House ensure that when the English votes for English laws proposals come forward next week an answer to that message is made very clear to their lordships?

[Chris Grayling]

When we come to this issue next week, I will have acted on that message. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is a debate about the Standing Orders of the House of Commons and it would be quite a big step for us to take a move towards inviting the House of Lords to rule, consider and act on our own Standing Orders.

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

Given the 20% increase in the number of reported hate crimes in the past year, will a Minister come to the Dispatch Box to explain why the Metropolitan police have written to me to say that they do not consider it necessary to take legal action against identified individuals who were protesting outside Downing Street on 9 September when a mob was waving Hezbollah flags, shouting anti-Semitic remarks and making anti-Semitic gestures?

[Chris Grayling]

Let us be clear: hate crime is unacceptable in our society. Anti-Semitic behaviour is unacceptable in our society, as is the reverse, which is when we sometimes see hostile actions taken against mosques in this country. This is an issue that my hon. Friend should raise on the occasions that are available to him with both the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister. All of us agree that this is something that should be acted on; it is not acceptable and we would always wish to see the police take strong action when such behaviour occurs.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I wish to be associated with the comments made by the Leader of the House about the memorial to Ian Gow. We have a service of thanksgiving today to commemorate his murder by Irish terrorists 25 years ago. I hope as many Members as possible will join us in St Mary Undercroft for that service.

On an equally important matter, police recruitment in Northern Ireland has been disrupted in the past two weeks by bomb attacks on the recruitment centre. It is quite unbelievable. No other police recruitment centre in these islands faces bomb attacks when young people try to sign up for public service. Will the Leader of the House bring forward a statement on additional resources that the police in Northern Ireland will have available to them to combat those attacks?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, we have just had Northern Ireland questions, but I will ensure that that concern is passed to my colleague the Secretary of State. What the hon. Gentleman has just described is absolutely unacceptable in our country and should never be tolerated in any way, shape or form. Those who express support for terrorist actions are not only utterly misguided but out of place in a democratic society and should be ashamed of their views. In my view, what he has just described underlines the need for the parties in Northern Ireland to continue the dialogue they are engaged in. We need to work our way through the current difficulties to secure a stable future for Northern Ireland in all respects and to ensure that what we have seen in the past can never return.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

Sue Wathen, one of my constituents, is experiencing terrible difficulties in trying to access treatment for a condition caused by contaminated blood. I know that Members on both sides of the House have constituents who are facing similar difficulties, so may we have a debate in Government time on this tragedy? We need action.

[Chris Grayling]

I know that this issue concerns Members on both sides of the House and is a matter of concern to the Secretary of State, so I am worried to hear that my hon. Friend’s constituent is having those difficulties. If my hon. Friend wants to contact me after questions, I will ensure that his concerns are passed on to the Secretary of State. These things are probably subject to local decision making, but we should all be concerned if people who have been through a terrible experience are not getting the support they need.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Given the Care Quality Commission’s report on hospital safety and the £3.3 billion bill for NHS temporary staff, may we have an urgent debate on the skills shortage in the NHS? The University of Wolverhampton, some of which is in my constituency, has said that it has had 5,000 applications for 500 nursing places. Supply could easily meet demand locally without having to go abroad.

[Chris Grayling]

I am well aware of the pressures in different parts of the health service and I pay tribute to our healthcare professionals. We are announcing measures today to try to ease pressures on nursing. In my view, today’s CQC report is a positive in that it is part of a drive by this Government to push up standards. If we do not look at where challenges remain to be addressed, we will never be able to address them. Fantastic care is provided across many parts of the national health service, but where it is not fulfilling its full potential we obviously have to know about it and work to improve it.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

There has been a dramatic escalation in violence across Israel and the west bank over recent weeks, so may we please have a debate on this serious issue?

[Chris Grayling]

I think we are all concerned about what is happening in Israel and the west bank. Utterly unacceptable incidents have taken place, including stabbings out of the blue and other incidents that have led to death and serious injury. We need to be constantly aware of that in this country and use every opportunity to try to facilitate talks and peace between the two sides. Obviously, I will ensure that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary addresses the issue in this House before too long.

[Steven Paterson (Stirling) (SNP)]

Yesterday I attended a reception organised by Citizens Advice Scotland about the barriers facing Scotland’s rural customers. It has produced an excellent report that is well worth a read, and one part that caught my eye was the section on rural banking provision, which lists the difficulties facing rural areas and villages. I am sure that the situation is the same in constituencies across the country. May we have a debate on the issues facing rural communities with banking and other services, such as post offices?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

We have to work to protect services in rural areas. It is vital that we do, and I hope and believe that the additional powers being provided to the Scottish Parliament through the Scotland Bill will give the Scottish Government greater ability to deal with the challenges the hon. Gentleman has described in his constituency.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence recommends three rounds of in vitro fertilisation on the NHS, but my clinical commissioning group and many others can afford only one or two. May we have a debate on whether the commissioning of IVF should be transferred to NHS England so that we can have a standard, fair number of IVF rounds across the country?

[Chris Grayling]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, but of course there will always be differences in provision in different parts of the country under a system in which we offer power and decision-making responsibilities to local doctors. I suggest that he look to secure an Adjournment debate on the subject, as I know that it will be a matter of concern to my friends in the Department of Health.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

The Royal Borough of Greenwich and the Mayor of London have approved a planning application for a cruise terminal at Enderby Wharf on the Thames, despite the absence of the provision of a shore to ship energy supply, which would prevent ships from having to use their diesel engines for power while they are berthed there. Has the Leader of the House had any indication from the Department for Communities and Local Government that it will be making a statement calling in this application for a proper examination of the impact on air quality in London?

[Chris Grayling]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman’s concerns have been heard. He has made his case eloquently. This is a detailed planning matter that would have to be handled in the usual way by Ministers, but I am sure his comments have been noted.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

Parents in Rugby were delighted when our new free school opened in September, providing additional choice and extra places, but they have been very concerned this week when, for the second time in a short period, a Traveller encampment has been set up at the entrance on the public highway to the school. May we have a debate about additional powers for local authorities to deal with encampments where they occur in sensitive areas, such as around schools? Perhaps some consideration can be given to how we fund defensive measures such as bollards to prevent such encampments.

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In my experience in Surrey, police and local authorities have more powers than they sometimes realise. If they use those powers effectively, they should be able to move those encampments on quickly. They need to do that, and I encourage my hon. Friend to put pressure on both those organisations locally to make sure that they get on with it.

[Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)]

I bobbed furiously yesterday in Prime Minister’s questions, such is the importance of this matter. The national media recently reported the findings of a coroner’s report on a young man from my constituency named Kane. He was the same age as my son, who is 18, and he killed himself because Wonga cleared all the money from his account. May we have an urgent debate so that this cannot happen again? These companies should not be allowed to leave someone—our children—so destitute.

[Chris Grayling]

It is tragic when anybody takes their life, but particularly when someone so young does so. The point that the hon. Lady makes is a valid one. I encourage her to apply for an Adjournment debate so that she can put this point directly to my colleagues at the Business Department.

[Will Quince (Colchester) (Con)]

We are fortunate in Colchester to have two of the best grammar schools in the country, and I was delighted to hear the announcement that the Government will imminently approve a new grammar school in Sevenoaks. May we have a debate on the Government’s policy on grammar schools and whether we can open any more during this Parliament?

[Chris Grayling]

It is important to say that the decision taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education involves the expansion of a successful school. If that expansion goes ahead, it will mean that a successful school will be able to offer more places to more students, but it is the expansion of a successful school. Our policy is always to ensure that every successful school—grammar school, academy or otherwise—is able to expand to offer places to young people who need that support.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

In Chesterfield over the past few years we have been conscious of the huge difficulties in accessing GP appointments. The Government’s policy, which seems to suggest that GP contracts are over-generous at a time when the country is desperately struggling to attract GPs, and the moves that they are taking in relation to junior doctors, which are discouraging people from pursuing a career in that field, make the problems worse. May we have a debate in Government time to ascertain what the Government’s strategy is to improve access to GP appointments?

[Chris Grayling]

My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary was in the House on Tuesday answering questions. It is his policy to encourage the development of a seven-day NHS to improve access to GP services. He is working with the relevant representative groups on plans for employment structures for junior hospital doctors to ensure that we provide the right framework for that to happen, and also to provide the right support for our junior doctors.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Tomorrow afternoon I will be attending the unveiling of a plaque to commemorate Napoleon Bonaparte’s sojourn on HMS Bellerophon in Plymouth Sound, following his defeat at Waterloo 200 years ago. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating and thanking Alain Sibiril, who is the French honorary consul in Plymouth, who has organised this event? May we have a debate on the entente cordiale?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

In this country we always try to welcome our French friends with open arms. It is quite unusual for them to be detained in a ship offshore. They are otherwise welcome to come here as part of an entente cordiale that, happily, has lasted 100 years. It is quite a long time since we had a conflict with the French, and long may that continue. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, as I know that this is not the only historic event that he is involved in. He is also involved in the celebrations of the sailing of the Mayflower, another important occasion to mark in the history of this country, and I commend him for it.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

May we have a statement on the plight of six merchant seamen, including my constituent William Irving, who have been detained in Chennai for over two years on charges of piracy and are now undergoing their second trial? If they are again released following the trial, will the Government commit to securing their return home as soon as possible?

[Chris Grayling]

We always try to provide proper consular support to people who are charged abroad and ensure that they are treated fairly and justly by overseas justice systems. I encourage the hon. Lady to raise the case with Foreign Office Ministers when they are here next Tuesday, because I know that they will try to do the right thing.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Just 6% of mobile phone users change contracts each year, and more than half the population have never changed carriers. According to the consumer group Which?, that means consumers are paying more than £5 billion a year more than necessary because 70% of people are on the wrong contract. Will my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on ways in which mobile network operators could better communicate the best available deals to their customers?

[Chris Grayling]

That issue was addressed in our manifesto, and I know that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is currently looking at it and hopefully will shortly take steps to enhance what we do shortly. I encourage my hon. Friend to seek to bring the matter before the House, either through the Backbench Business Committee or in an Adjournment debate, because I think it is very important.

[Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab)]

In the Finance Bill Committee we recently discussed the issue of VAT on female sanitary hygiene products. The Financial Secretary told us that it was a matter of European legislation. Therefore, may we have a debate on the Government’s strategy for negotiating a zero rate as part of the Prime Minister’s talks on our EU membership before the referendum?

[Chris Grayling]

I think there will be many occasions to discuss our relationship with the EU over the next few months—indeed, we have done so with the European Union Referendum Bill. The hon. Lady makes an interesting point that I know she will want to make in those debates, or during Foreign Office questions next week.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

Anni Nasheed is the first ever democratically elected President of the Maldives, yet he has been sentenced to 13 years in prison for terrorism. The UN working group on arbitrary detention has found that unlawful on three counts and urged for his immediate release. Will the Leader of the House find time for a statement from a Foreign Office Minister to explain what the British Government are going to do, including the possibility of sanctions, to ensure that he is released as soon as possible?

[Chris Grayling]

I know that the United Nations has looked at that matter closely. The Government are extremely concerned about what has happened in the Maldives and want to see the issue addressed. The Foreign Secretary will be here next Tuesday for Foreign Office questions, so I encourage my hon. Friend to take advantage of that opportunity. We should always stand up when political leaders are imprisoned inappropriately. We should be, as we always have been, a beacon of liberty for political protesters suffering in that way.

[Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)]

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), I would like to request an urgent debate on today’s report from the Care Quality Commission, which states that two thirds of our hospitals are offering substandard care, that one in eight are rated as inadequate for safety and that three quarters overall are rated as requiring improvement.

[Chris Grayling]

As I said earlier, the reason we have the new regime, and why we go through these performance assessments, is precisely so that we can drive up quality and performance. Where hospitals have been put in special measures as a result of the CQC’s work, we have seen measurable improvements in the quality of care, which is something we should all welcome.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Harrow Council has announced its intention to impose a £75 charge for the collection of garden waste. This back-door council tax increase for a monopoly service is likely to be the most expensive in London, and possibly in the whole country. May we therefore have an urgent debate in Government time on councils imposing additional charges for monopoly services that the public have no choice but to accept?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend highlights the risk of monopoly services generally. We should always seek to deliver choice in the public sector where we possibly can. Seeking to offer consumers choice has been part of what this Government, and indeed our party, have done for a very long time. I understand that the situation he describes must be hugely frustrating locally. I know that he, as a powerful advocate for his area, will be biting at the council’s ankles for what it is doing.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

I am sure that the Leader of the House will want to join me in praising Leeds business week—the UK’s biggest week-long business event, bringing businesses, entrepreneurs, the private sector and the third sector together to discuss business issues. May we have a debate on how the Government’s devolution proposals, currently somewhat confused with the different options in Yorkshire, will affect businesses so that they have a clear idea of what to support?

[Chris Grayling]

We very much hope that our devolution proposals, with the plans that are coming through—we had a Second Reading earlier this week and we have a debate in Committee on the Floor of the House next week—will provide a real opportunity for partnership between local authorities and businesses to drive up the economic performance of our cities and our regions. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to take part in the debate next week. He makes an important point and I am sure that Ministers will listen to it.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

On Saturday it was great to see the last flying Vulcan bomber fly over Rolls-Royce in Barnoldswick as part of its farewell tour of our country. My family have very close ties with this iconic aircraft; four members of my family, including my father, worked for A.V. Roe and Company, which designed and built the aircraft. Will the Leader of the House grant us a debate where we could pay tribute to Vulcan to the Sky, the charity that has kept the plane flying, and the remarkable farewell tour across the UK that has delighted thousands of spectators?

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and his family for their involvement in an iconic aircraft in the history of this country. He must be very proud that they have played a part in its construction. For so much of our heritage, we rely on groups of volunteers who give up their time to protect for future generations what has been. He describes a very important group of those volunteers who are doing a great job; I commend them for it.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Changes to the state pension as part of the Pensions Act 1995 and the Pensions Act 2011 have adversely impacted, not just once but twice, on a number of women born in the 1950s. May we have an urgent debate in Government time to discuss the impact of those pension changes on women born in the 1950s and potentially look at solutions to put right the injustices?

[Chris Grayling]

These issues have been debated in this House extensively over the years. Yes, there are difficult decisions to take when deciding to raise the state pension and having to set a framework within which to do that. These decisions were taken under Governments of both parties. We have all recognised the need to increase the state pension age and the logic of equalising the pension age between men and women, and we have tried to do that in as sensitive a way as possible. It has been extensively debated in this House, but I do not think we could move to further changes now.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

The continued retention of weapons of mass destruction for the UK is of grave concern to millions of people, not least in Scotland, where people live in their shadow. This issue is much too important to be about gaining advantage at an election, as has been suggested. Will the Leader of the House ask for a statement from the Secretary of State for Defence on the timing of the vote on the Trident replacement?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

We will bring this issue before the House in due course. I appreciate that Scottish National party Members feel strongly about it. What I have never been quite able to understand is why, since the nuclear deterrent is such an important part of the Scottish economy, they want to see it go.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Jim Shannon]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

One recent health issue has been the increase in type 1 diabetes. Many schemes have been put forward to address that, including dose adjustment for normal eating, which controls carbohydrates in tandem with physical exercise. Will the Leader of the House agree to a statement or a debate in the House on type 1 diabetes and how to address it?

[Chris Grayling]

That condition affects very large numbers of people, and we would wish health research to continue to try to alleviate the burden that people face. The subject is absolutely right for requesting an Adjournment debate or asking the Backbench Business Committee to bring forward a debate, and I encourage the hon. Gentleman to do so.

Wilson Doctrine

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am very grateful to you for what you have just announced. Given the Leader of the House’s announcement earlier that we will have a statement from the Prime Minister on Monday—such statements sometimes run for an hour or even two hours—and that we will then have this three-hour debate, there will not be much time for the Psychoactive Substances Bill.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

That’s your fault.

[Chris Bryant]

No. The Leader of the House says that that is our fault. It is for the Government to make provision for matters of interest to the whole House and to make proper provision for scrutiny of their own legislation.