Transforming Rehabilitation
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the rehabilitation of offenders.
This Government are committed to an ambitious programme of social reform, even at a time of financial constraints. Major changes have already been delivered in welfare and education to tackle the challenge of endemic welfare dependency and educational underperformance, particularly in deprived areas. In the coalition agreement, the Government also promised
“to introduce a rehabilitation revolution”
to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending, and today I am publishing a consultation paper entitled “Transforming Rehabilitation: a revolution in the way we manage offenders”. We need a tough but intelligent criminal justice system that both punishes people properly when they break the law and supports them to get their lives back on track so that they do not commit crime again in the future.
Despite significant increases in Government spending on offender management during the past decade, reoffending remains consistently and unacceptably high. In 2010, nearly half of prisoners were reconvicted within a year of release. This rate is even higher for short-sentenced prisoners, the great majority of whom currently receive little or no support.
Failing to divert offenders away from crime has a wide impact. The Ministry of Justice alone spent over £4 billion on prisons and offender management in 2011-12, and the wider cost of this failure is considerable. The National Audit Office estimated that the economic cost of reoffending by recent ex-prisoners was as much as £13 billion in 2007-08. I am clear that we cannot continue as before. In difficult economic times, delivering real reform requires a dramatically different approach. We cannot afford not to do this.
I propose to introduce a new emphasis on life management and mentoring support for offenders in order to address the problems that lead them to turn to crime time and again. For the first time, all offenders will be subject to mandatory supervision and tailored rehabilitation on their release from prison, including those serving sentences of less than 12 months. Those offenders have some of the highest reoffending rates, but there is currently no statutory provision after the halfway point of their sentences. I want to ensure that persistent offenders do not walk out of the prison gates with £46 in their pockets and little or nothing else.
My vision is very simple. When someone leaves prison, I want them already to have a mentor in place. I want them to be met at the prison gate, to have a place to live sorted out, and to have a package of support set up, be it training, drug treatment or an employability course. I also want them to have someone whom they can turn to as a wise friend as they turn their own lives around. I intend to open up the market for probation services, so that we can combine the expertise that exists in the public sector probation service with the innovation and dynamism of private and voluntary providers.
These radical reforms are underpinned by the principles of the big society. Enabling voluntary sector organisations to participate fully in the transforming of rehabilitation, harnessing their expertise, and making the most of existing local links will be vital to the delivery of the reductions in reoffending that we need to see. Providers will be commissioned to deliver community orders and licence requirements for the majority of offenders, and will be paid by results to reduce reoffending. They will be expected to tackle the causes of reoffending and help offenders to turn their lives around.
Through the introduction of payment by results, providers from all sectors will have a clear incentive to rehabilitate offenders. We will pay in full only for services that succeed in reducing reoffending. Services will be commissioned nationally, and delivered across broader geographical areas. I am committed to ensuring that the new system continues to make best use of local expertise, and to integrate itself into existing local structures. Potential providers will have to be clear about how they would sustain local partnerships in contracts, and commissioning will be informed by local intelligence.
Extending rehabilitation to more offenders will introduce new costs to the system, but I believe that they can be balanced by our drawing more providers into the system. Through increased use of competition, we can generate efficiency savings and drive down unit costs across the system, allowing our funding to go further.
The public sector probation service does an important job in protecting the public. The Government are very clear about the value and expertise that it brings, and we want to continue to use that expertise as we transform our approach to rehabilitation. There will be a continuing critical role for the public sector, which will include advising the courts and assessing the risk that an offender poses to the public. Offenders who pose the highest risk of serious harm to the public will continue to be managed directly by the public sector, and the public sector will retain ultimate responsibility for public protection.
Transforming rehabilitation will help to ensure that all who are given prison or community sentences are properly punished, while also being helped to turn their back on crime for good. That will mean lower crime rates, fewer victims and safer communities. I commend my statement to the House.
Chris Grayling
I am grateful to the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), for the elements of his statement that were supportive of what we are doing, and of course I should thank the Labour party, because it is only thanks to legislation introduced by the Labour Government prior to 2010 that I am able to make such an important reform for this country. I should also pay tribute to the former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who established the Peterborough pilot. The work being done in Peterborough prison by the team involving the St Giles Trust—I met representatives from the trust this morning—and other charities working in partnership with the private sector is an impressive example of what can be done in mentoring offenders.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned pilots. The last Government were obsessed with pilots. Sometimes those in government just have to believe in something and do it, but the last Government set out a pilot timetable under which it would have taken about eight years to get from the beginning of the process to the point of evaluation and then beyond. Sometimes we just have to believe something is right and do it, and I assure Members that if they went to Peterborough to see what is being done there, they would think it was the right thing to do.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Work programme, and I wish he would stop using statistics that are certainly not entirely—[Interruption.] I am not sure how to describe them; “misleading” might be inappropriate language to use. The Opposition keep missing an important point: in the Work programme, we do not pay until someone has been in work for more than six months. So if 800,000 people joined the Work programme in the first year, half of them could not have been in work for six months. The reality is that the Work programme has so far helped 200,000 people find jobs. Many of those people have been in jobs for the short term and have then gone on to second jobs, and many of them have gone into long-term employment. The programme is making a real difference, and I defy any Member of the House to visit a Work programme centre, see the work that is being done and not come away impressed. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman mentions G4S. It is true that G4S is one of the prime contractors in the Work programme, but interestingly, it subcontracts all its work in the Work programme to voluntary sector organisations and small businesses. The Work programme is the biggest voluntary sector welfare-to-work programme that this country has ever seen, with organisations such as the Papworth Trust delivering support right across East Anglia and organisations such as the Careers Development Group involved. That charitable organisation is running large parts of the Work programme in London. Labour Members need to look at the detail of what is happening.
The right hon. Gentleman made a sensible point and asked a sensible question about the management of and fluctuation in risk. We intend the public probation service to work closely with local providers, and where there is a variation in risk—where it suddenly becomes clear that an individual represents a clear and present danger of harm to the public—the mechanisms will exist to move those people back under the public sector umbrella. So the public sector will continue to work with the most serious offenders, through the multi-agency public protection arrangements and similar, and the police will continue to work closely with the public sector on the most serious offenders. Where there is a clear and present risk to the public, it is the duty of the public probation service and of this Government—and it will continue to be so—to make sure that we supervise and manage that risk, and that intelligence is shared between the police and the public probation service to manage the risk that exists, when it does exist, because we must ensure that the public are protected.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of cost, and I simply offer him one example of where efficiencies can be delivered. When we contracted out the delivery of community sentences in London, the cost of delivering those sentences fell by nearly 40%. I am absolutely certain that although very good work is being and will continue to be done in the probation service, and those professionals will continue to work in this field, there are efficiencies to be found. Such efficiencies can be reinvested in providing support to those prisoners whose sentence is less than 12 months, who have never had it before.
Lastly, the right hon. Gentleman asked about the more difficult offenders. I wish to make it absolutely clear, as our consultation document does, that we will have a pricing mechanism that makes it impossible for providers simply not to support the most difficult prisoners. Every prisoner must have support. We are delivering support that is mandated by the courts for every prisoner, and that will be continued.
Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
These proposals, which will greatly increase the potential for offender managers to deliver rehabilitation, should mean that probation officers will be employed by many different types of organisation. Indeed, it will be vital for the success of these reforms that probation officers at all levels of experience are found in the remaining public sector organisations and in the new delivery organisations. Will the Secretary of State therefore ensure that he strengthens the corporate identity, and the training and academic underpinning of probation as a profession, so that there is a strong base for our excellent probation officers and their profession, wherever they are deployed?
Chris Grayling
I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend. There is a slight myth in the media that we arrived in the Department in September and nothing had been done before, but that is totally untrue; I have inherited some very good work done by him and his colleagues, which created the foundation for these reforms. Indeed, he and I worked closely together in providing employment support to prisoners through the Work programme. It is very important that we ensure that we have the best possible professional standards. I apologise here, because the point was raised by the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). One of the questions I have for the probation profession is: should we facilitate the creation of some sort of chartered institute that raises professional standards in the profession? It will continue to be an important profession, with high-level specialist skills needed to manage the most serious risk. I am also ensuring, through these proposals, that existing probation staff have the opportunity to set up social enterprises and mutuals, so that they themselves have the opportunity to be part of the future.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with working with the private and voluntary sectors in the justice system; I did it when I was the Justice Minister. I have two questions to put to the Secretary of State, if I may. First, on resilience, how does he know that the organisations with these contracts, like G4S in the Olympics, will be able to deliver? Secondly, on accountability, things will go wrong in the justice system, cases will be disastrous and things will be serious. Who will ultimately be accountable to this House and to the public for the errors and mistakes?
Chris Grayling
The simple answer to the latter point is that responsibility will continue to lie with the public probation service and, ultimately, the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman and I know that in any system with a rate of reoffending there will be further crimes, whether a public, private or voluntary sector provider does the work. I want to ensure that the level of reoffending continues to go down and that we try every means at our disposal. The payment-by-results regime opens the way to innovation to ensure that we do the best possible job in ensuring that people do not reoffend.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Although I understand the Secretary of State’s enthusiasm for getting on with the job without waiting for more pilots, a decision that some of his advisers might have called courageous, may I ask him to pay particular personal attention to ensuring that charities and voluntary organisations with a track record are not crowded out by how contracts are let? Will he also consider whether he should expand the role of the chief inspector of probation so that quality control over the whole of the provision is maintained?
Chris Grayling
The latter point is an important one and I rather agree with my right hon. Friend on that. I look forward to having discussions with him and his Committee about it. I am also strongly supportive of the voluntary sector. It is simply not the case, even though the Opposition keep saying that it is, that the voluntary sector is not involved in the Work programme. That programme supports well over 100,000 people in the voluntary sector, using the real expertise of small and larger organisations such as the Papworth Trust and the Salvation Army. I want to see more of that in this process.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
May I ask the Secretary of State about accountability to the courts? When a medium or low-risk offender is on a programme run by a private company and fails to keep to the conditions of that order, who will make the decision to return that offender to the court? Will it be the private company, which clearly has an interest in a successful outcome to the programme, or will it be a probation officer?
Chris Grayling
It will be a probation officer. I expect to have in every centre a seconded or attached probation officer who will be responsible for enforcing the legal side of things. In much the same way as happens in the Work programme, where Jobcentre Plus does the sanctioning, it will be a contractual duty of providers to report a breach but it will be the job of the public probation service to decide how to respond and whether to refer it to court or do something else.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, which I welcome. Does he agree that the most effective support for former prisoners can be given by those with whom they have developed a relationship of trust—a relationship that has been developed not just over the days or weeks prior to release but over a longer period of time—and that that is particularly the case for young offenders? In light of that, will he consider how support can be given to the excellent restorative justice work done with young men by the Sycamore Tree project at Thorn Cross young offenders institution in Cheshire?
Chris Grayling
Absolutely. I look forward to visiting Thorn Cross at some point. I visited some years ago when, as my hon. Friend knows, I was the candidate in Warrington South. It is a very good centre and I look forward to visiting it again in the not-too-distant future. I absolutely believe that the role of such local projects is very important. I am often asked why crime is coming down. I think that one of the reasons is that all around the country real efforts are being made by the voluntary sector and the community sector to engage with young people who might otherwise re-engage with or embark on a life of crime.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and I recently had the opportunity to visit the probation service in Greater Manchester, where we saw the programme to deal with some of the most dangerous individuals—that is, people who had been convicted of terrorist offences who will be released over the next few years. The work being done to reintegrate them into the community and to de-radicalise them—very specialised work indeed—was first rate and very professional. Will the Secretary of State reassure us that in the case of such prisoners—ex-terrorist offenders—the community will be kept safe and that vital reintegration and de-radicalisation work will continue?
Chris Grayling
I can absolutely do that. I envisage no change, unless it is an improvement, to how we manage offenders such as former terrorists in the community. They would fall under the high-risk umbrella and I would expect that work to continue in the public sector, where it takes place at the moment. I pay tribute to Greater Manchester probation trust, which is among the most innovative and entrepreneurial of the probation trusts. I have little doubt that some of the people in that trust will see the opportunity to create a mutual or co-operative. In the spirit of the Labour party and the co-operative movement, this is a great opportunity for a new generation of co-operatives to emerge and I want to see staff participating in the future.
Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that it is difficult and challenging to rehabilitate hardened drug addicts? Does he share my concern that many young people are going into prison as mild drug users but coming out as addicts? Why are there still so many drugs available in our prisons and what is he doing about it?
Chris Grayling
That is a concern that I and the prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), share. We have done quite a bit of work on it already, but we are up against a determined effort to get drugs into prison; some of the means used to smuggle drugs into prison are quite eye-catching. We will do everything we can to reduce the availability of drugs in prisons, but when someone comes out, if they have had some form of rehabilitation in prison I want to see that continue in the community. The structure of these reforms and the through-the-gate approach will make it much more likely that we have consistent rehabilitation through prison and beyond.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The last report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, entitled, “Drugs: Breaking the Cycle”, pointed out that 35% of those coming out of prisons had a drugs problem. I support the principle of what the Secretary of State has said today, but will he be able to choose the expertise in dealing with drugs of those organisations that will help with his rehabilitation revolution? Not just any organisation can deal with drugs; those people must be experienced in helping people once they have come out of prison.
Chris Grayling
That is why not just any organisation with cash in the bank will be able to come in and win the contracts. I want to see expertise and understanding of how to bring in the different services that are available. They should be able to bring in the drug rehabilitation services funded by the Department of Health and deal with the local college, ensuring that prisoners are on training courses. The people who do this work must have a joined-up understanding of what needs to be done, otherwise we would not work with them.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Will he give me an assurance that those who will now be responsible for rehabilitation will give high priority to getting prisoners working while they are serving their sentences and into jobs when they have completed their sentences?
Chris Grayling
I intend to continue the work done by my predecessor, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe, on increasing the amount of work done in prisons. He has done good work in extending that already and it is particularly important that that work continues after prison. That was why my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I worked hard to ensure that prisoners who came out of jail entered the Work programme on day one and started to get back-to-work support straight away. I want to see an integration of support that not only delivers the life management and mentoring I have discussed today but ensures that we provide proper back-to-work support for offenders alongside that, as that is the best way of stopping them reoffending.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
During his statement, the Secretary of State said that sometimes we must believe that something will work rather than having a pilot. That same Secretary of State believes that we should drastically increase electronic tagging, despite his own impact assessment saying that that will have no impact on reoffending. Should we take the consultation seriously?
Chris Grayling
I would simply invite the right hon. Gentleman to visit his own probation trust in Wales, which is one of the trusts trialling GPS tagging. I can see real benefits in that tagging. We are considering it and we are recontracting tagging contracts at the moment. I think that GPS tagging offers a new dimension for our community justice system that will help sometimes to protect offenders and sometimes to deal with offenders who are doing things that they should not be doing.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Does the Justice Secretary agree that it is simply astonishing that there has not been rehabilitation support for the roughly 50,000 a year whose sentences are less than 12 months? They have a reoffending rate of about 60% and I congratulate him on the fact that this Government will finally address the issue, helping them back into society and reducing reoffending.
Chris Grayling
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. It is baffling that over all the years of plenty for which Labour was in power, this is something Labour never did. We have an extraordinary situation with thousands and thousands of offenders who leave prison with £46 in their pocket and nothing else, and with no support, and a huge proportion of them reoffend. I am determined to change that.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Government talk a lot about evidence-based policy making. Will the Secretary of State tell me why we are not having pilots to see whether the reform will work?
Chris Grayling
I simply invite the hon. Lady to look at the work done in Peterborough and by voluntary sector organisations to mentor offenders. Sometimes when we look at something, we can say, “That is the right thing to do.” That is what we are doing.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to drug treatment. Does he share my concern that, in the past 10 years, there has been a 165% increase in methadone maintenance prescriptions in prisons but a 30% reduction in detoxification procedures? Will he commit today to making rehabilitation and recovery a key and central part of his plans?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely give that commitment. One problem has been that if prisoners who are in prison for a short time have no support after they leave, all prisons can do while they are inside is to stabilise the situation. When there is through-the-gate rehabilitation, with somebody waiting to ensure that rehab continues in the community, we have a much better chance of addressing the issues to which my hon. Friend refers.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The probation service is staffed by highly qualified, professional, extremely dedicated and hard-working people. Medium-risk cases can be complex and serious in their consequences. The public will be concerned that the same levels of qualification and professionalism should apply to supervision. Will the Secretary of State ensure that the same level of qualifications and experience will apply to probation officers in the voluntary and private sectors?
Chris Grayling
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman quite understands what we are trying to achieve. We need the qualifications and experience to protect the public from harm, but in my view the former offender turned good—the former gang member gone straight—is the best way of making sure that a young person coming out of jail does not go back to the same ways. This is about getting a mix of high qualifications, of the kind we find in our public probation service, in people who have turned away from crime and who are helping those who might end up in a place where they once were.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my historic interest in social investment.
I welcome the opportunity for charities and social enterprises to get more involved in this area. Payment by results is very hard on working capital. Will the Secretary of State outline what his Department is doing to increase access to finance for charities and social enterprises—for example, the nascent social impact bond sector?
Chris Grayling
Let me start by saying that I do not expect this to be a 100% payment-by-results contract. There is a need to enforce orders of the court, so I do not expect to be able to put 100% of the fees that we pay on a payment-by-results outcome basis. However, I do want providers to be at risk; I want them to have their money on the table to deliver excellence for us, but I absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s point. That approach will make the cash flow situation less challenging than it would be in a 100% situation.
I have already held and will continue to hold meetings with people in the social investment sector to encourage them to look at the measure as a real opportunity. This is the kind of area in which social investment in this country should be involved. There is a clear public benefit and the possibility of earning a return. I absolutely hope and believe that our social investment sector will row in behind it.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Secretary of State was explicit in saying that we could not afford not to do this. Can he be equally explicit about the primary focus of the consultation exercise? Is the measure about a reduction in reoffending or a reduction in expenditure?
Chris Grayling
This is absolutely about a reduction in reoffending. I have believed for a while that we should carry out this measure. I was particularly pleased when the Prime Minister invited me to take my current position. I absolutely believe that I should try to lead with the reform, and the Prime Minister is absolutely behind it. As the hon. Gentleman will know, in some parts of the United Kingdom, such matters are devolved; I hope that we are setting an example that others will choose to follow.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for fulfilling another manifesto promise in this rehabilitation revolution. Will we be following the great model of the National Grid young offender programme, which moves people into work? Its reoffending rates are in single digits, in contrast to the unacceptable rates nationally. Can we follow through with that model and replicate it across the country, so that we have a conveyer belt not into crime but into employment?
Chris Grayling
I pay tribute to the work done not only by National Grid but many other companies in this area. I have visited the Timpson’s workshop, which involves the father of the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson). It is a first-class facility in Liverpool jail of the kind that I would like to see more of. The more that we can engage the private sector in helping offenders make the transition from prison into employment, the better. I pay tribute to all those organisations, and particularly National Grid.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to look at the gap between a person leaving through the prison gate and finally being picked up by the authorities, and to close that gap; it is a key vulnerability when it comes to reoffending. Will he also look downstream at creating programmes that will help social and emotional capability to be developed within prisons before people are released? As he has converted to co-operatives, will he extend the Whitehall co-operative to health and education, so that offending behaviours are addressed way earlier and potential offenders do not go to prison in the first place?
Chris Grayling
The latter point is important, and I give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I pay tribute to his work in establishing the Early Intervention Foundation. The way in which he works across the House is a good example of Parliament setting aside politics and coming together in the interests of the country. I assure him that we will continue to look for different ways of working.
I see social challenges as a jigsaw puzzle. We are reforming welfare and education, and we have the troubled families programme and an increased focus on early intervention. Today I am trying to put in another piece of that jigsaw. The hon. Gentleman and I know that the problems will not be solved overnight, but if we do not move things in the right direction, we will never solve them. I hope and believe that the measure is one part of doing that.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Following on from the question asked by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), we should change the attitude towards reoffending while offenders are in prison. Should we not have modern and efficient prisons rather than Victorian ones? Would it not be a good idea to reopen Wellingborough prison—a modern prison and the third cheapest in the country to run?
Chris Grayling
I congratulate my hon. Friend on continuing to be a first-rate advocate for his constituency. He knows that my strategy is to modernise the prison estate as fast as resources allow; it is clearly both cheaper and better if prisoners are in more modern prisons. I will have more to say about that as time goes by. We have had extensive discussions about Wellingborough prison and its site. My answer is never say never, but he will know the nature of the challenges that we face and how we are trying to address them.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
One of the busiest places in prison is the gym. I hope that the Secretary of State will look at how sports can help to reduce reoffending. Will he look at the boxing project in Doncaster prison? It teaches offenders to get involved in boxing and uses boxing coaches. Unfortunately, it has had to be stopped because of a change in the guidelines on boxing in prisons. I understand some of the problems, but the scheme is great and people get jobs at the end of the course.
Chris Grayling
I can give an assurance to the hon. Gentleman. I am aware of the project to which he refers. I have seen a number of projects around the country in which boxing is used as a way of engaging young people. I have no problem with that happening in our prisons. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam is writing to the hon. Gentleman to say that we are happy for the project to go ahead; our only caveat relates to violent offenders. We are happy to see the project continue as a way of engaging non-violent offenders.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
I warmly congratulate the Justice Secretary on having the vision to have every offender met at the prison gates with somewhere to live and a proper package of support. There was certainly a pilot under the last Government—giving offenders £46 and little else. We have seen where that ended up.
Will the Secretary of State outline the number of offenders who have problems with alcohol? Will he reassure me that alcohol will be given the same priority as drugs as offenders leave prison?
Chris Grayling
About three quarters of prisoners have an addiction problem, a mental health problem or both. About half of prisoners have had some form of addiction problem. That is a real challenge, which colleagues at the Home Office are looking at closely as well. There are new mechanisms to monitor and help and support those with alcohol problems. I accept that it is a real issue, which I hope and expect mentors working with prisoners to address if they work with people with an addiction challenge.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on the consultation. As one who in a previous life spent four years as Roy Hattersley’s deputy working on our party’s policy in this area, I can say that most Governments have failed to get the issue right. However, I did learn at that time that we must pay careful attention to how many people we put in prison and what we do with people in prison—education and skills training is still absolutely pathetic. Lastly, when a prisoner comes out, he needs the full package of support—housing, education, a job and everything else. Highly skilled people are needed to help make that happen.
Chris Grayling
I absolutely agree. We are doing this through a consultation document rather than simply arriving with a final blueprint—I am setting a direction of travel but I am not saying that every detail is finalised—to offer people in this House and outside an opportunity to say, “You want to do that, but if you tweak this a bit it might be better.” I hope that over the next two or three months we can look at that feedback, digest it, and help to hone the final package in a way that gives us the maximum opportunity of working with and using the expertise of people such as the hon. Gentleman who have been here and done this.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I warmly support the thrust of my right hon. Friend’s proposals, but the thorny issue is about what constitutes a successful outcome on payment by results. I have met people in the probation service who think that reducing reoffending from 10 burglaries a month to two is a success. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that that will not be considered a success and that only no reoffending will be considered a successful outcome?
Chris Grayling
I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that I will not be rewarding people for someone burgling a few houses rather than a lot of houses.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
The moment at which the probation service has been commended for its effective performance is an odd one for the Secretary of State to choose to put his foot on the accelerator. What is his estimate of the number of probation officers who will be made redundant, what is the anticipated cost of that, and does he have an agreed budget for it from the Treasury?
Chris Grayling
I do not expect this to lead to wholesale redundancies in the probation service. It certainly means a new world for many people in the probation service in being part of the new organisations, new social enterprises and new consortia that will deliver the services. Yes, of course there will be some changes, but this does not involve, suddenly and instantly, mass redundancies in the probation service—that would not be right.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Of the 50,000 prisoners on short-term sentences who are released each year, a growing proportion are EU and other foreign nationals. These people do not deserve rehabilitation; they deserve deportation. Will my right hon. Friend dig deep within the security provisions of the EU free movement directive to ensure that if any EU national commits an imprisonable offence in this country, of whatever sentence length, they are deported on release and barred from returning to this country?
Chris Grayling
I agree with every single word that my hon. Friend said. We have far too many foreign national prisoners in our jails. The challenge of returning them, of course, is that there has to be somebody willing to take them at the other end—I am not willing simply to release criminals on to the streets. I absolutely agree that we need to be able to return prisoners as quickly as possible. I intend to do everything I can to use the prisoner transfer agreement, which more and more countries are now ratifying, as much as possible to return offenders to other countries, and to do everything I can, with my hon. Friends in the Home Office, to make sure that they do not come back.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
The practical effect of the Work programme in Wrexham is that local charitable organisations have been excluded from providing services, and some of them have closed. Will the Secretary of State impose a contractual condition that local charitable organisations should be involved in the provision of services for the new scheme?
Chris Grayling
It depends on what works. There are very good charities delivering excellent services for this country. There are charities that do good and noble work but are less good at the jobs they do. What matters to me is that we have the organisations that do the best job. In the Work programme we will find excellent organisations in the charitable sector doing first-rate work and excellent private organisations doing first-rate work, and I would like to have the best of both.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
I strongly welcome what the Secretary of State has said. Will he look not only at the amount of money that prisoners get on release but the monetary form in which it is given to them? I am concerned that many prisoners are given the money in cash form and go immediately to the nearest town to use it to purchase inappropriate goods such as alcohol that damage the essential stability of their first 48 hours post-release when they need to set a good pattern of behaviour.
Chris Grayling
Absolutely. Another problem in the system was that up until a few months ago prisoners could not even sign on for benefits for a week after release, which left a huge hole in their finances and caused a lot of reoffending. I addressed that when I was a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions. We have to make sure that the environment is right when prisoners are released. If they are met by a mentor at the gate who then sorts out their lives, showing them where they are going to live and making sure that they are signed on to benefits, I hope that their time to go down the pub will be much diminished.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Changing human behaviour is a complex business, and I have been very impressed by the work going on across agencies in the Scunthorpe area to reduce reoffending, particularly when it is related to alcohol and drugs misuse. Changing what is going on puts at risk those sorts of activities. Why is the Secretary of State allowing only six weeks for this consultation when it is so important to get it right?
Chris Grayling
This is an iterative process. We have a formal consultation period of six weeks. We carried out a consultation on the future of probation last year, and this is an updated consultation. We are going to carry on listening to Members across the House. It will take us a few more months to hone and finalise our final package, and we will look at what works. If the best idea comes in half an hour before we finalise it, then that is fine. I want to make sure that what we have is what works.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
While I recognise that the Secretary of State’s proposals seek to ensure that ex-prisoners make a success of their lives once they are released, I want to return to the matter of those who enter prison with a drug problem. Has he managed to call a complete halt to the practice of retoxifying prisoners prior to release when the Prison Service has taken the trouble to detoxify them at the beginning of their sentences?
Chris Grayling
We will do everything we can to do that. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam, is looking very hard at the whole issue of how we manage drugs in prisons and the nature of such rehabilitation. As a result of these reforms, I hope that we will end up not only dealing with the question of retoxification but identifying problems, starting rehab in prison and continuing it post-prison, and getting prisoners off drugs altogether.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
Some parallels have been drawn between this plan and the Work programme. One of the problems with the Work programme is that minimal information is available from some of the private providers, and they are not subject to freedom of information requests. How will this be different?
Chris Grayling
I am working on reforms to FOI at the moment. We will try to be as transparent as possible. The hon. Lady has to remember, although she is not guilty of this, that over the past couple of years I have been regularly attacked by Labour Members about the use of national statistics. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot demand the information in advance and then want me to conform to national statistics rules. We will publish data as soon as we are able to do so, under the guidance of our statisticians, and we will be as transparent as possible over all this.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
In welcoming this statement, may I ask the Secretary of State to expand on one aspect of it? He said, “Services will be commissioned nationally”, but he also said that he is committed to ensuring that the new system will make the best use of local expertise. In an area such as West Mercia, where our probation service has a strong record of working with the voluntary sector, how can we ensure that the existing relationships are expanded and improved on rather than discarded and replaced?
Chris Grayling
One of the things I intend to write into the tender documents when the time comes is a requirement for the bidder to demonstrate that they are capable of maintaining and developing these local partnerships, which are crucial. In an area such as integrated offender management, for example, it is essential to maintain those close links. The point made in the document is that it is not practical to commission a contract of this kind on a fragmented basis. Trying to have 15, 20 or 30 small payment-by-results contracts around the country, locally commissioned, would be unbelievably complex and take an inordinate amount of time to administer, and the expertise is not really there to deliver that. We will commission nationally but the delivery will be as local as possible.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
This statement seems to be driven more by extremist right-wing ideology than by any empirical evidence, because the Secretary of State acknowledged that the public sector is best placed to deliver public safety. Is he planning to allow the police to share intelligence with G4S and other private providers?
Chris Grayling
I know that the Labour party is going through an identity crisis at the moment, and the hon. Gentleman may be in the wrong party, but if I am not mistaken the Peterborough pilot was started by Labour and the legislation that allows me to do this was passed by Labour, so does he support what his party did, or not?
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I welcome the extension of rehabilitation to more offenders. As my right hon. Friend rightly said, a place to live on release is vital. Will capital funding be available to assist in the development of such, sometimes specialist, housing?
Chris Grayling
This is an important issue that was raised with me this morning by the probation trust chairs. Of course, we provide a number of specialist accommodation blocks already. As part of the work we do over the next two or three months, we need to look at exactly how we ensure that the right vehicles are available to address accommodation needs. I want to see what I saw this morning at St Giles Trust, which has a small team of professionals who are very good at finding young people who are out of prison somewhere to live and stabilising their lives.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
I want to press the Justice Secretary on something. On his watch, the Government have cancelled the probation service’s payment-by-results pilots before we have heard the evidence. Is not risk to the public increased when we do not have the results of those pilots?
Chris Grayling
I sat through a decade in opposition watching the previous Government so often piloting something, with nothing ever happening. The number of pilots that the Labour Government went through in office was endless. There is something in the work that is being done in Peterborough and the voluntary sector that I want to capture now, not in a decade’s time.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
In my constituency, Royal British Legion Industries is doing a great job in getting people back into employment through the Work programme. Does the Secretary of State envisage organisations such as RBLI helping, in particular, ex-service personnel who are former offenders to be rehabilitated?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely hope that RBLI will be one of the organisations that will come forward. It is an example of practical delivery of the Work programme by the voluntary sector on the ground, contrary to what we sometimes hear. There is a particular challenge in dealing with the number of ex-service people in our prisons. The more expertise we can bring to bear on that, the better.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State mentioned in passing the importance of mental health in prison and the number of prisoners who suffer from mental health problems. I am sure that he understands the need for significant support, both in prison and after, in reducing reoffending among that group. Will he confirm that counselling and other services for those with mental health problems will get the priority they need, both in prison and after, as a result of these changes?
Chris Grayling
The support in prisons for mental health is substantially provided by the national health service. We have to make sure that what starts in prison carries on after prison, but one of the flaws in the current system is that it does not work very well in that respect. I hope that, by creating a service that is much more through the gate and by addressing the life-management of offenders as they move through prison and afterwards, there will be continuity in the delivery of those services and that a mentor will look three months ahead and say, “Prisoner X is coming out and needs to carry on with their counselling service. I will make sure that happens.”
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware that in 2010 and 2012 only 56% of those on drug treatment and testing orders completed them. Will he clarify and confirm what further steps will be taken to ensure that those who are on such orders fully complete them?
Chris Grayling
I intend to legislate in the near future to ensure that, when we do this, the court has the power to require people who have short sentences to go through rehabilitation programmes. It is important that we have a system whereby if someone who has a drug problem has a short sentence and is released from jail having started rehab there, that rehab will carry on and they will be required to do it. That will be the case.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
The Justice Secretary will be well aware of the special experiences and needs of women in the criminal justice system. There are already some excellent programmes supporting women offenders, such as the women matter programme in Greater Manchester. Will the Justice Secretary assure me that he will use the consultation period to reflect carefully on how a payment-by-results method will need to be adapted to meet the particular needs of women offenders?
Chris Grayling
I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), who has responsibility for women in prisons, and I are looking at the issue. There are different challenges for adult males, young people and women in prisons, and we need to be careful and ensure that we approach each of those groups with an appropriate understanding of the different circumstances in which they find themselves.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
The Justice Secretary has rightly said that the failure to divert people away from crime is having a wide impact and he has mentioned life management. Will he confirm that he recognises that the transformative impact that we could have includes focusing on early years work at primary school, and even before that, with professionals such as speech and language therapists and, probably even more importantly, good parenting specialists?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely accept that. That is why I said that I see meeting the social challenge we face as a jigsaw puzzle. Different pieces, whether they be intervention to work with troubled families, health visitors in the home, guidance for young lone parents or helping offenders who are long-term unemployed, are all part of a broad-ranging challenge that I believe will, as time goes by, deliver real change in our society.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Northamptonshire has the lowest reoffending rate in the country, despite the chaotic circumstances that prevail. That is a tribute to the local probation officers in my area. They are concerned that this ideological move is being rushed through without proper thought for the circumstances and that it has not been properly tried, tested or evidenced. The real concern is that the Justice Secretary is not like a shopkeeper gambling on a new line of stock; he is dealing with public protection. What is his response to the comments of Harry Fletcher of the National Association of Probation Officers, who says that this move will compromise public protection?
Chris Grayling
I do not agree with Harry Fletcher. I am making sure that, when it comes to risk of harm to the public, that remains in the public sector and will continue to do so.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I pay tribute to the probation service for its work in my constituency, a very rural and sparsely populated area. What thought has the Secretary of State given to how these proposals will be carried out in such areas, which lack the presence of private sector and charitable organisations with the necessary skills to carry out rehabilitation?
Chris Grayling
The probation service in Wales has been one of the most innovative in doing this and has, in fact, in the past few months produced a blueprint on how this could happen in Wales, following a similar model to the one I have set out today. I fully expect to see members of the Wales probation team at the forefront of creating either mutuals or co-operatives to deliver the services. I pay tribute to the Wales probation trust, which is imaginative and innovative and has some great ideas to do precisely what my hon. Friend is talking about in difficult areas where communities in rural areas are spread out.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I warmly welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement. Often, small and medium-sized enterprises and voluntary providers are put off applying for Government contracts because of the complexity of the process involved. May I urge my right hon. Friend to make the application process to run probation services as straightforward as possible in order to maximise the number of applicants?
Chris Grayling
I can give that assurance. One of the things that I have learned from the contracting of the Work programme is to try to make the process as simple as possible for small organisations. I am not sure that we did it as effectively as we could have then, but we will certainly do so this time.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Along with many other Members, I greatly welcome the statement. Will my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor join me in commending the governor of HMP Shrewsbury, Mr Gerry Hendry, on giving the very highest priority to finding places for prisoners on release to live and work? He has demonstrated clearly that rehabilitation works, because reoffending has fallen greatly.
Chris Grayling
I indeed pay tribute to the work not just there, but across the prison service. We have some first-rate professionals in the probation service who have a strong future in delivering support to offenders in our communities, whether as part of a high-quality, specialist public sector probation service or, indeed, as part of one of the new generation of organisations.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
The Labour party suggests that there is no evidence on mentoring. I spent the past 12 months studying that particular issue for my book, “Doing Time”, which, amazingly, is still available in shops. The fact of the matter is that the Labour party introduced custody plus in 2004 to 2007 on this exact issue, but it did not follow it through. It is this coalition that has the guts and determination to address the crucial bridge between prison and release.
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I pay tribute to him for the work he has done. There is enormous expertise in this field in the House and I hope that all Members will feel able to take part in the consultation. The Labour party introduced power after power, scheme after scheme and pilot after pilot, often for PR purposes, but seldom did anything.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
The Lord Chancellor rightly reminded us in his statement that the criminal justice system must both punish offenders and seek to rehabilitate them, but will he acknowledge that many of our constituents doubt that we have got the balance right? Will he reassure us, and is he confident, that his proposals will achieve outcomes that will increase public confidence?
Chris Grayling
I hope and believe so. The reality is that, whether we are the hardest hard-liner or the softest liberal on crime, we all have an interest in preventing reoffending. I understand where my hon. Friend and his constituents are coming from. That is why we have taken steps such as increasing the protection that householders receive if they meet an intruder in their home, introducing a mandatory life sentence for a second-time serious sexual or violent offender, and introducing a mandatory punishment to every community sentence. We will take further measures that will restore and rebuild the public confidence in the criminal justice system that was so lacking when we inherited it.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Secretary of State and other colleagues for their succinctness, which enabled 45 Back Benchers to question him in 41 minutes of exclusively Back-Bench time.
Transforming Rehabilitation
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
This Government are committed to an ambitious programme of social reform, even at a time of financial constraints. Major changes have already been delivered in welfare and education to tackle the challenge of endemic welfare dependence and educational underperformance, particularly in deprived areas. In the coalition agreement, the Government also promised
”to introduce a rehabilitation revolution”
to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending, and today I am publishing a consultation paper entitled “Transforming Rehabilitation: a revolution in the way we manage offenders”.
This publication describes my proposals to reform the way in which offenders are rehabilitated in the community through a new focus on life management and mentoring support. I am also planning, for the first time, to extend rehabilitation to those released after serving sentences of less than 12 months, who currently get no support but have the highest reoffending rates.
Reoffending has been far too high for far too long. Despite significant increases in spending on probation under the previous Government, there has been little change in reconviction rates over the past decade. In 2010, nearly half (47.5%) of prisoners were reconvicted within 12 months of release. Failing to divert offenders away from crime has a huge impact. The cost to the Ministry of Justice of dealing with these offenders is considerable, with total expenditure on prisons and offender management standing at £4 billion in 2011-12. But it is not only expenditure on offender management; the National Audit Office estimated that the wider economic cost was as much as £13 billion in 2007-08.
The proposals in this paper extend provision to a greater number of offenders and increase the focus on rehabilitation. Given the challenging financial context, we will need to increase efficiency and drive down costs to enable us to do this. I therefore intend to begin a process of competition to open up the market and bring in a more diverse mix of providers, delivering increased innovation and improved value for money. To ensure that the system is properly focused on reducing reoffending and deploying more effective interventions, providers will in future only be paid in full when they reduce reconviction rates in their area.
We will not take any risks in protecting the public and the public sector probation service will retain ultimate responsibility for public protection and will manage directly those offenders who pose the highest risk of serious harm to the public—this group will include MAPPA cases. They will also continue to carry out risk assessments for each offender, advise the courts and Parole Board and handle breach cases. The probation service performs a vital role in protecting the public and managing risk—I am determined to preserve that.
The great majority of community sentences and rehabilitation work will, however, be delivered by the private sector and voluntary organisations, which have particular expertise in this area. I am also keen to ensure that probation professionals currently within existing structures have scope to play a full role in the new rehabilitation provision. Providers will be commissioned to deliver community orders and licence requirements for most offenders in broad geographic areas, and will be paid by results to reduce reoffending. They will be expected to tackle the causes of reoffending and help offenders turn their lives around, for example, by providing mentors and signposting to housing, training and employment, and addiction and mental health services.
Our reforms will make use of local experience, and integrate with existing local structures. We want to introduce a system which allows for closer alignment of the variety of services which offenders use, through co-commissioning with other Government Departments, police and crime commissioners, and local authorities. Potential providers will have to evidence how they would sustain local partnerships in contracts.
These proposals will make a significant change to the system, delivering the Government’s commitment to real reform. Transforming rehabilitation will help to ensure that all of those sentenced to prison or community sentences are properly punished while being supported to turn their backs on crime for good—meaning lower crime, fewer victims and safer communities.
This paper includes the Government’s response to the March 2012 consultation “Punishment and Reform: Effective Probation Services”.
Copies will be available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office and online at:
https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/transforming-rehabilitation.
Victims Commissioner
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
On 21 December 2012, I announced that Baroness Helen Newlove has been appointed as the new Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses—the Victims Commissioner.
The role of the Victims Commissioner, as set out in the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, is to promote the interests of victims and witnesses, encourage good practice in their treatment and keep under review the operation of the statutory victims code.
We are committed to strengthening the voice of victims who too often feel like they are treated as an afterthought in the criminal justice system. The appointment of Baroness Newlove as the new Victims Commissioner will ensure that as our strategy to improve services and support for victims and witnesses is implemented, the views of victims are represented.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
1. What the Government’s policy is on the use of indeterminate sentences for public protection.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The widely criticised indeterminate sentence of imprisonment for public protection was abolished on 3 December. It has been replaced by a new regime of mandatory life sentences, which apply to anyone who is convicted for a second time of a very serious sexual or violent offence, and tough extended determinate sentences.
Kate Green
In a written answer published on 19 October, I was informed that 193 prisoners over the age of 60 were serving indeterminate sentences for public protection. Approximately 25 elderly high-risk prisoners are expected to be released in Greater Manchester, some of whom will have higher than average social care needs as well as a need for specialist supervision. What discussions have been taking place with local authorities about where those individuals are to be accommodated, and who will bear the cost?
Chris Grayling
As the hon. Lady will know, the probation service regularly engages in detailed discussions with local authorities to try to establish the right ways of dealing with individual offenders. In many parts of the country there is integrated offender management, which is designed to ensure that we provide the best possible support. My plans for a rehabilitation revolution will step up the support provided for such people, and will, I hope, ensure that we address issues such as where prisoners are to live after leaving prison.
Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
On 25 April 2010, Irene Glen from Littlehampton opened the front door to her former partner Sean Benn. He came in and, with a kitchen knife, stabbed Mrs Glen 10 times. She was flown to London for several hours of emergency surgery, and mercifully survived. Sean Benn was convicted of wounding with intent, and was sentenced to detention in a secure hospital under the Mental Health Act 1983. On Thursday, a tribunal will consider whether to release him, a mere two years after that horrific attack. Mrs Glen believes that he may attack her again, and is terrified for her life. What can she do to prevent Sean Benn from being released, and what can we do to protect my constituent?
Chris Grayling
I shall look carefully at the case to which my hon. Friend has referred. Matters relating to release are handled independently by the different tribunals and assessment services that are there to decide whether it is safe to release a prisoner, and I should obviously be concerned to hear of circumstances in which a potentially dangerous prisoner was to be released. My Department will certainly be able to discuss with my hon. Friend whether there are any ways in which we can help either to support his constituent or to influence the process, should that prove necessary.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
2. What consideration he has given to reviewing the age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
6. What steps he is taking to reform the rehabilitation of offenders by supporting people leaving prison who have served less than 12 months.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
It might be helpful if I put the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and other Opposition Members out of their misery and told them exactly what we are planning to do. As the House knows, I intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community. This rehabilitation revolution will stimulate innovation and open the delivery of services to a wider range of providers with the skills needed to change an individual’s behaviour and reduce offending in future. I aim to extend those services to cover those sentenced to less than 12 months in prison. I intend to hold a series of initial discussions with stakeholder groups tomorrow and to publish early in the new year a detailed consultation paper that will serve as both a response to the previous consultation paper and a direction for our reforms.
Chris Grayling
One of the things that I believe are very important as we build a system of mentoring for former offenders is that there should be someone working alongside them to ensure that they have somewhere to live when they leave prison. Of course, the Department has worked closely with the Department for Communities and Local Government to address homelessness with a strategy that contains a number of measures to help ensure suitable accommodation for offenders, such as flexibility in the universal credit system so that short-sentence offenders do not lose their tenancies when they spend a short time in prison.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that prisoners should be met at the gates by mentors—I am not sure whether he is volunteering to be one of them. Some 35% of prisoners have a drugs problem. Has he seen the latest Home Affairs Committee report, which suggests that prisoners should be compulsorily tested on exiting prison so that they can be given the support they need in the community as he has so rightly recommended?
Chris Grayling
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s sentiment with regard to drugs, prisons and when offenders move back into the community. I have spoken to prison officers who are deeply frustrated by the fact that treatment begins in prison but then stops at the prison gate. I can assure him that one of the things we are working on is ensuring that the conditionality we introduced to surround our rehabilitation revolution will mean that treatment flows through the prison gate and continues after the prisoner has been released.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Can I ask the Secretary of State specifically about what he and his Department are doing to support former members of the armed forces who are in prison? I am thinking particularly of those who have served on operations. How is the Department helping them with rehabilitation and making sure that support mechanisms are in place so that they can get on with their lives and do not reoffend?
Chris Grayling
I regard it as a national shame that so many former members of our armed forces are in our prisons. I have discussions with the Minister with responsibility for veterans issues, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). I see the issue as something that we need to take forward in the next few months. It is certainly sitting high in my in-tray as a priority for us all.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
7. What steps he is taking to tackle reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave a few moments ago. We intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community as soon as we can.
Jeremy Lefroy
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer and for the one he gave my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). Reoffending is to some extent also linked to lack of preparation prior to release. As a member of an independent monitoring board, I noted that we placed a great emphasis on induction and less on “outduction”—preparation prior to release. What is my right hon. Friend doing in that respect?
Chris Grayling
Our aim is to deliver a service that flows through the prison gates. One of the failings of the current system is that, as the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said a moment ago, there is not enough co-ordination between what happens in prison and after prison. The contracts that we build will begin while an offender is in prison and will see them through the prison gate to ensure that the continuity to which my hon. Friend refers is present.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Given the abject failure of the payment-by-results programme that the Secretary of State introduced in his previous role as Minister with responsibility for employment, does he not recognise how incredibly worried people in Corby and east Northamptonshire will be that his new privatisation —the new payment by results—will be equally damaging for offender management?
Chris Grayling
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the Work programme. About 200,000 people who were long-term unemployed have started work through that programme. The Labour party has been utterly disingenuous in how it has argued around the figures. There are people with first-rate expertise out there, particularly in the voluntary sector. I will be seeing such people tomorrow to talk about how we can help offenders participate. Those people can bring real expertise to make sure that reoffending rates, which are much too high, come down.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
When are the Government going to produce a strategy on dealing with women offenders and reoffending by women?
Chris Grayling
Our aim is to do so early in the new year, but we do not want to rush it. I recognise that there is a need to differentiate the needs of women in prison from those of men in prison. The challenges are different and our responses should be different. One of my early steps in recognising that was to separate ministerial responsibility for men and women in prisons so that we could place a proper focus on the latter and their distinctive needs.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Legal aid is a fundamental part of our legal system, but resources are not limitless. Publicly funded legal support should be reserved for those who need it most—for the most serious cases in which legal advice and representation are justified. It will continue to be available in cases where people’s lives or liberty are at stake, where they are at risk of serious physical harm or immediate loss of their home, or where their children may be taken into care.
Ian Mearns
The Secretary of State said that the legal aid system is a fundamental part of the justice system, but we are witnessing a massive erosion of legal aid. Given the attacks on legal aid, on no win, no fee claims, on the Human Rights Act and on judicial review, and the drainage of resources at community legal advice centres and citizens advice bureaux, which are so important, particularly at the moment, do this Government truly believe at all in access to justice for all?
Chris Grayling
Of course we believe in access for justice, but we have to face the reality that we have had by far the most expensive legal aid system in Europe. At a time when we are still dealing with the financial debris left behind by the previous Government, it is impossible to avoid some tough decisions.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
Reforms to legal aid to date have focused on civil legal aid. Future reforms will have to move on to criminal legal aid and, in particular, criminal contracting. Will my right hon. Friend therefore please say whether he has a timetable for criminal contracting?
Chris Grayling
Inevitably, we cannot avoid considering all the financial issues that face the Department. We are focusing on delivering the changes that we must soon introduce on civil legal aid; a number of measures need to come before this House in the next few weeks. That, for now, is our prime focus.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
To avoid a 12th defeat in the other place on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, the Secretary of State’s predecessor promised this House that he would not cut legal aid at first-stage appeal in welfare benefits cases if a point of law were involved. The proposals finally brought forward were so inadequate that two weeks ago their lordships voted them down and told him to come back with something better. Now we hear that the Secretary of State, in a fit of pique, intends to do nothing at all. Why is he breaking a promise to Parliament and to some of the most destitute and vulnerable people in the country?
Chris Grayling
As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we have promised to consider the decision by the Lords. I was a little surprised to see the rather unusual step taken in the other place of voting down a statutory instrument that was granting a concession, but we will of course review the issue and decide how to proceed.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
9. If he will take steps to ensure that prisoners serve full sentences as handed down by the courts.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
15. When he expects to announce the Government’s response to the consultation on the future of the probation service.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
As I indicated a moment ago, following my meetings tomorrow with a series of stakeholders, I will finalise a paper setting out my proposals for delivering a rehabilitation revolution. The paper will include a response to the previous consultation on probation reform and set out how my proposals have developed. It will be published early in the new year.
Mrs Glindon
The Secretary of State will be aware that Northumbria probation trust has received the best inspection results so far from Her Majesty’s inspectorate. How will he ensure that probation trusts continue to be effective in protecting the public and reducing reoffending after the review, given that it is proposed that offender management will be fragmented across a wide range of providers?
Chris Grayling
As I have indicated, we have some high-quality probation professionals in this country. It is a profession that will remain important to us. We need specialist skills, particularly in the protection of public security, risk assessment and harm prevention. Such skills will remain integral to the way in which a public sector probation service works.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
16. What plans he has to extend the use of restorative justice.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
17. What steps he is taking to improve community sentences.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The Government are determined to ensure that community sentences are effective at punishing and rehabilitating offenders. We have increased the length and duration of curfews and given courts greater flexibility to impose programme and treatment requirements. We are also making the delivery of community payback swifter and more intensive. Provisions in the Crime and Courts Bill will ensure that new community orders contain a punitive element, give courts new powers to monitor the location of offenders electronically, and, following on from the comments of the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), increase the use of pre-sentencing restorative justice.
Stephen Gilbert
I welcome the steps that my right hon. Friend has outlined. Newquay, in my constituency, sees a large and welcome influx of visitors each year, a minority of whom commit antisocial behaviour. What assurance can my right hon. Friend give me that community sentences will be served in the areas where the crimes occur?
Chris Grayling
That would of course be the norm, but the most important thing is not geography but that punishment takes place. Given the circumstances that Newquay faces, I hope that the addition of a punishment to a community sentence will be a timely reminder to a lot of young people of what they can and cannot do. That approach will create a system that is better and more appropriate for Newquay.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Wales probation trust has carried out excellent community-related work with local voluntary services in north Wales. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he sees a role for probation services in the brave new world to which he has referred?
Chris Grayling
I can absolutely do that. I have visited the Wales probation trust and am impressed by what it has done, and I am absolutely committed to seeing high-quality, specialist public sector probation officers continuing to deliver the support that we need them to deliver, particularly to prevent harm from coming to members of the public.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Today, in accordance with the timetable set out in its terms of reference, the Commission on a Bill of Rights has delivered its final report jointly to the Deputy Prime Minister and myself. The Government thank the commission for the diligent manner in which it has discharged its task. It reflected the remit set out in the coalition’s programme for government of establishing a commission to examine the creation of a British Bill of Rights that
“incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue to be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends British liberties.”
The House knows very well my strong views on these matters, and we will now give the report careful consideration.
Mrs Hodgson
What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the medium to long-term demand on the youth justice system, given that the budget for early intervention work such as helping troubled families and supporting teenage drug and alcohol programmes will have been cut by 40% by the end of this Parliament?
Chris Grayling
I think the hon. Lady misunderstands the position. The Government are putting a huge effort into tackling the problems in troubled families, with work taking place in the Departments for Communities and Local Government and for Work and Pensions. I hope that we can make a real difference by reducing offending. The contribution of restorative justice will make a difference, and our rehabilitation revolution will help to ease pressures on our criminal justice system.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
T2. Last week, the Public Accounts Committee published its report on the Ministry of Justice’s language services contract. It concluded, among other things, that Applied Language Solutions does not have enough interpreters available to meet demand, and that the interpreters who are provided do not all have the necessary qualifications. Does the Secretary of State intend to implement the Committee’s recommendations to address those pressing issues?
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The British Human Rights Act provides protection against cruel and inhumane treatment, including the right to a fair trial, the right to life, the right to family life and freedom of expression. It makes explicit the fact that Parliament is sovereign, and that even the Supreme Court cannot trump Parliament. Bearing that in mind, will the Justice Secretary make it clear that it is the British Human Rights Act that he so opposes, or is it the British courts that interpret the law? Which of the rights in the British Human Rights Act would not be included in his Bill of Rights?
Chris Grayling
The original human rights convention was a laudable document written when Stalin was in power and people were sent to the gulags without trial. Over 50 or 60 years of jurisprudence, the European Court of Human Rights has moved further and further away from the goals of its creators, and I believe that this is an issue that we have to address in this country and across Europe.
Sadiq Khan
I know that the right hon. Gentleman has done the primer, but I did not mention the European convention or the European Court—I mentioned the Human Rights Act. Will he answer a simple question? Will he confirm that were it not for the Human Rights Act, the extradition of the Asperger’s-suffering Gary McKinnon to the USA could not have been stopped by the Home Secretary?
Chris Grayling
I am a bit puzzled by the right hon. Gentleman’s comment, because the Human Rights Act enacts the convention in the law of this country. I think, and many in the House agree, that the remit of the Court has expanded beyond its creators’ original intention, which is why we need reform.
Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)
T3. Will the Secretary of State seek to make an example of some of the best practice work experience schemes for serving prisoners such as the big society award-winning custody and community project at Norwich’s Chapelfield shopping centre, which is highly effective in cutting reoffending?
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
T5. The Bill of Rights commission report that has just been published has split views on many issues, but a majority think that the status quo is unstable and, interestingly, a majority want further reform of the Strasbourg Court. What reassurance can the Secretary of State give us that he remains committed to defending the House from the creeping usurpation of democratic power by the Strasbourg Court?
Chris Grayling
I can give my hon. Friend an absolute commitment. The Conservative party—although not the Opposition, from what we have heard today—is committed to the need for change and to ensuring that international human rights frameworks do not inappropriately intrude on the democratic decisions of this Parliament.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Does the Minister agree that an essential part of probation for reoffenders is monitored interaction within the community, and that community service can be a useful tool for reintegration in society?
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Very agog, Sir. Will the Secretary of State say when he plans to end the scandal of making welfare benefit payments to prisoners serving a sentence?
Chris Grayling
That is a matter for the Department for Work and Pensions but I am absolutely of the view that benefit payments should not be made to serving prisoners. I hope and expect that the DWP will deal with that issue. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has already taken steps to ensure that the system we inherited, in which that kind of thing could happen, comes to an end.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
T9. Does the Secretary of State agree that although judicial review is important, in many circumstances its use can become excessive?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely agree. The proposed consultation and the measures that we set out last week, which we think will make a difference as a first stage towards reforming judicial review, are essential. We must bear in mind that only one in five judicial reviews succeed. They are a huge burden on our justice system and a price the nation has to pay. We will be looking at whether further changes can be made to ensure that we protect the integrity of judicial review as a valuable tool for challenging the Government, while not allowing it to continue as a tool that can be abused.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The most vulnerable people in my constituency will suffer most from cuts to legal aid. Is it not the case that under this Government there is one law for the few who can afford expensive legal advice and another law for the rest?
Chris Grayling
It is noticeable that time and again in these sessions we hear what are effectively spending commitments from the Opposition. They want to spend more money on legal aid, despite the fact that—by their own admission—they left us with no money in the bank. The hon. Gentleman must accept that we have to take tough decisions to reduce the cost of the most expensive legal aid system in Europe, and we will take those decisions.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Many of us who were young advocates took work from legal aid at the start of our careers. If that work goes, will my right hon. Friend look at promoting mediation across all departments—welfare departments, health tribunals and the works—to help young aspiring advocates and barristers make up the income they will undoubtedly lose?
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend’s point about mediation is important and highlights the fact that when dealing with the financial challenges we face, the Government must look for innovative new ways of doing things. Mediation is certainly one of those.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
How many people do the Government expect to be able to challenge welfare benefit decisions at the highest level on a point of law in the future if they continue to claim that it is too difficult to find a way to identify cases and provide legal aid, despite the Minister’s reassurances to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee?
Chris Grayling
We are still in discussions about how to respond to the vote in the House of Lords, but we must accept that there are limits to what the Government and the taxpayer can provide in terms of legal support. There will always be limits to what the state can do, and we are trying to find the right balance in exceptionally difficult financial circumstances.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
This week the public learned that the legal aid bill for the radical cleric Abu Qatada stands at over half a million pounds and is still rising. Will my right hon. Friend put an end to that misuse of public money?
Chris Grayling
I would make two points to my hon. Friend. First, whether we like it or not, we will always, in the interests of justice, have to provide some support to people whom we find distasteful. Secondly, the reality is that I share her concerns. I have already commissioned a review of aspects of our legal aid system in which I believe there are public confidence issues. I hope to give my thoughts on that front in due course.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
The Courts and Tribunals Service has admitted that there is a 55-week wait for appeals on employment and support allowance in Coventry. That is higher than the 37 weeks admitted by Ministers and higher than the national average. What will be done to end that disgraceful state of affairs?
Chris Grayling
We are doing two things, but the right hon. Gentleman needs to bear in mind that the backlog has existed not just under this Government, but under his Government. The reality is that we are dealing with a very large number of cases. We are working hard to improve decision making within Jobcentre Plus, and have taken on board the recommendations of Malcolm Harrington to improve the process. One challenge we face is that when we are taking tough decisions on benefit entitlement and when people are free to appeal, there will always be a propensity to do so.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State ensure that charities and voluntary organisations can continue to provide their services for the rehabilitation of offenders?
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
The Secretary of State seemed to confirm a moment ago in a reply to the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) that the legal aid bill for Abu Qatada came to half a million pounds, as has been reported in the newspapers. Will he therefore explain why he refused to provide that figure in a written answer to me last week?
Chris Grayling
I will have to look into that. I am not aware that I have refused to provide anything. The figure has been made publicly available.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Last year, the number of applications for permission to apply for judicial review in immigration and asylum cases reached a point at which they represent more than three quarters of the total number of such applications. What will my right hon. Friend do about that growing issue?
Chris Grayling
Our consultation includes proposals to introduce a series of limitations in the judicial review process, particularly to stop people coming back again and again looking for new legal nuances to launch a new case. I believe, as does the judiciary—this has been highlighted in a number of recent cases—that judicial review is simply being used as a vehicle to delay being deported from the country, which is wrong.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
The all-party parliamentary group on child protection is conducting an inquiry into the review of family justice and the Government’s proposed reforms. We have today heard that in most situations the judge did not meet children in the looked-after system before making decisions about their lives. Is it not time that judges who work on family justice cases are dedicated to family justice rather than dealing with other cases, so that we can ensure that they are properly trained and can communicate properly with children?
Chris Grayling
It is not for me specifically to instruct the judiciary on how they handle cases—the independence of the judiciary is a feature of our system. However, I am sure the hon. Lady’s comments will have been heard by those who lead the family division. It is very much a matter for judges to decide how best to ensure that they have the right mix of experience.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
Topically, Liz Calderbank, the chief inspector of probation, has today produced a report into what she calls the depressing and flawed care system, in which too many young people in care end up in the youth justice system. What part are Justice Ministers playing in the Department for Education review of vulnerable children placed a long way from home, often in inappropriate children’s homes and other accommodation?
Chris Grayling
We are doing two things. First, we are undertaking a complete review of how we detain young people. I am uneasy—to say the least—about a system that costs a substantial amount of money and yet has a high reoffending rate. I do not believe we are getting it right, and we are looking to introduce a process in the new year to address how we detain young people. Secondly, I am in regular contact with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. I believe we are due to meet to discuss those issues in the next few days.
Points of Order
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr Speaker
I understand what the hon. Gentleman is asking and what he describes as all he was asking, but I am afraid that the operation of the sub judice rule is not undertaken or applied on a selective basis entertaining various hypothetical scenarios. If a matter is sub judice, and I am so advised, it is sub judice. It is not open, in such circumstances, for a Member to pick upon an aspect of the matter that he thinks it timely to raise. The ruling I gave was on the basis of advice at the time, and I believe it to be correct. If I were incorrect, I would be very happy to say so to the hon. Gentleman. He is indefatigable in the pursuit of this issue and properly so, but he will accept that we must operate on the basis of the rules. He has said his piece, I respect that, and that is the end of it.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. It might be helpful to say that my Department is mindful of the financial pressures faced by the Hillsborough families. We all recognise the very difficult circumstances they have been through, and they are certainly in our consideration.
Bill of Rights (Commission)
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Today, in accordance with a timetable set in its terms of reference, the Commission on a Bill of Rights has delivered its final report jointly to the Deputy Prime Minister and to me.
The Government thank the Commission for the diligent manner in which it has discharged its task. This reflected the remit set out in the coalition’s programme for Government for establishing a Commission to examine the creation of a British Bill of Rights that
“incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue to be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends British liberties”.
We will now give the report careful consideration.
Judicial Review
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Following my written ministerial statement to the House on 19 November 2012, Official Report, column 22WS, I have today laid and published a paper (Cm 8515) proposing a set of reforms of judicial review on which we are seeking views.
The paper sets out a range of proposals designed to tackle the burden that the growth in judicial review applications has placed on stretched public services. The Government recognise that judicial review should remain an essential means of holding authorities to account and ensuring that decisions are lawful, and is committed to ensuring that access to justice and the rule of law are protected. We are however keen to seek views on how the process might be improved, and the proposals focus on the procedural aspects of judicial review in three areas.
First, we are seeking views on reducing the time limits for bringing a judicial review relating to procurement or planning, bringing them into line with the appeal timetable which already applies to those cases. More generally, we also see merit in clarifying the point at which the time-limit begins for any case with a continuing or series of breaches that give rise to the claim.
Secondly, we are seeking views on removing the right to an oral renewal where a judge refuses permission where there has been a prior judicial process, or where the claim was judged to be totally without merit. The right to appeal to the Court of Appeal would be on the papers.
Thirdly, we are seeking views on the introduction of a new fee for an oral renewal so that fees charged in judicial review proceedings better reflect the costs of providing the service. If the oral renewal is successful, the fee for post permission stages would be waived.
Together, these provide a balanced, practicable and targeted approach to ensure that legitimate claims are brought more quickly and efficiently to a resolution without affecting the right to properly hold the Executive and other public bodies to account.
The engagement exercise will close on 24 January. We will consider the responses to the paper carefully and will consult with the judiciary before taking decisions on any action, and we will publish a Government response as soon as possible in the new year, setting out those proposals we intend to take forward.
Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I wish to make a statement about the Government’s approach to the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights on prisoner voting. This is a subject that provokes intense debate, not least in this House. The House will know that, from as early as the case of Hirst in 2004, the Court found the United Kingdom’s bar on prisoners voting to be “general, automatic and indiscriminate”, and concluded that it was, in the Court’s view, in violation of article 3, protocol 1 of the European convention on human rights, which covers the right to free and fair elections.
The previous Government committed to implement the judgment, and issued two consultations which did not resolve the issue. Litigation has continued in the domestic and Strasbourg courts. In the case of Greens and MT in 2010, the Strasbourg Court again found that the UK was in violation of article 3, protocol 1 of the convention, and gave the UK six months to bring forward legislative proposals to remove the violation. That deadline was stayed pending the UK’s intervention in a further case, Scoppola, involving the Italian Government. In that case, the Attorney-General argued in person before the Court that national Parliaments’ discretion to determine policy on this issue should allow for a complete bar on prisoners voting.
The judgment in the Scoppola case was handed down in May of this year. It concludes the Strasbourg Court’s consideration of the issue. In that judgment, the Court made it clear that, in its view, the “margin of appreciation” afforded to individual Council of Europe member states to decide on how far prisoners should be enfranchised was wide, but confirmed its position that a complete bar was outside that margin. The judgment restarted the clock on Greens and MT, and it requires the Government to “bring forward legislative proposals” to give effect to the judgment by tomorrow, 23 November, and to enact the required legislation.
The Prime Minister has made clear, on the record, his personal views on this subject, and I have done the same. Those views have not changed. However, the Government are under an international law obligation to implement the Court judgment. As Lord Chancellor, as well as Secretary of State for Justice, I take my obligation to uphold the rule of law seriously. Equally, it remains the case that Parliament is sovereign, and the Human Rights Act 1998 explicitly recognises that fact. The current law passed by Parliament remains in force unless and until Parliament decides to change it. As Lord Justice Hoffmann put it in a case in 1999:
“Parliamentary sovereignty means that Parliament can, if it chooses, legislate contrary to fundamental principles of human rights. The Human Rights Act 1998 will not detract from this power. The constraints upon its exercise by Parliament are ultimately political, not legal. But the principle of legality means that Parliament must squarely confront what it is doing and accept the political cost.”
Last month, the Attorney-General made it clear in evidence to the Justice Committee that
“it is entirely a matter for Government to make proposals but ultimately for Parliament to determine what it wants to do. Parliament is sovereign in this area; nobody can impose a solution on Parliament, but the accepted practice is that the United Kingdom observes its international obligations”.
The judgment requires the Government to bring forward legislative proposals for Parliament to consider. It will then be for Parliament to scrutinise and to decide on them. So I have today laid before Parliament a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny, and the Leaders of both Houses are writing to the Liaison Committees proposing that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to conduct that pre-legislative scrutiny. We judge that pre-legislative scrutiny of this nature is appropriate, given the significance of this issue and the strong views on both sides that exist right across this House.
The draft Bill sets out three different potential approaches for the Committee to consider. Presenting a draft Bill with that range of options reflects the spectrum of views that we know exist on this question. However, it will of course be for the Committee, once established, to consider whether approaches beyond those canvassed in the draft Bill should also be considered by Parliament in due course.
The first approach in the draft Bill is for prisoners sentenced to less than four years to be entitled to vote. A four-year bar has previously been discussed by Parliament. The second approach would limit the vote to prisoners sentenced to six months or less. The final approach would effectively restate the current position that anyone incarcerated following conviction would not have the vote.
The Committee will want to consider these approaches, their consequences if they were in due course adopted by Parliament, and whether there are other options—for example, the Italian system, found to be compliant by the Court, which disfranchises prisoners post-release. The Committee will, I am sure, consider evidence on this and other approaches. It may also want to reflect on the consequences for the rule of law and the UK’s international standing of Parliament’s ultimate decision. The Committee may also wish to think about practical implementation. The administrative consequences and costs for the Prison Service, the courts and the electoral registration system and electoral registration officers of different approaches could be significant.
The House will want to note that this draft Bill does not yet deal with territorial extent. Any Bill introduced into Parliament would need to extend to the whole of the United Kingdom, although the Bill is currently drafted for England and Wales only. The Government will engage with the devolved Administrations during the pre-legislative scrutiny process to ensure that the legislation applies correctly in Northern Ireland and Scotland, in recognition of the interaction with devolved policy matters,.
When the Joint Committee has finished its scrutiny, the Government will reflect on its recommendations. We will continue the legislative process by introducing a Bill for full debate and scrutiny as soon as possible thereafter.
I have set out in some detail for the House the background to the draft legislation that I am publishing today, and the respective roles of Government and Parliament in resolving this issue. I commend this statement to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I thank the Justice Secretary for allowing advance sight of his statement. This issue has been controversial since the 2004 Hirst v. UK case when the European Court of Human Rights ruled our blanket ban on prisoner voting was contrary to article 3, protocol 1 of the convention. The Labour Government disagreed with the Court’s decision. It is not, and never has been, Labour’s position to give prisoners the vote. That is why we appealed the decision and continued to challenge it until we lost office.
Under this Government, I am afraid, there has been a lack of consistency on prisoner voting. On 20 December 2010—the last day before the Christmas recess—this Government snuck out a written ministerial statement announcing that prisoners on sentences of under four years would get the vote. This meant roughly 30,000 prisoners getting the vote. Information we sought showed that 4,188 offenders convicted and sent to prison for burglary would get the vote—so much for this Government being on the side of innocent homeowners. Had the Government’s original plans gone ahead, 5,991 offenders convicted of violence against the person, 1,700 offenders convicted for sexual offences and even 67 rapists would also have been given the vote. I asked the Government at the time for their legal advice that supported giving violent and serious prisoners the vote, but they declined to provide it. The Government then performed one of their earlier U-turns and in a debate on 10 February 2011, Back Benchers from all sides voted overwhelmingly to maintain the status quo.
I welcome the fact that the Attorney-General appealed to the European Court again in the Grand Chamber this year, but many of us remember the previous Lord Chancellor boasting that he would use our once-in-a-generation opportunity of chairing the Council of Europe to ensure that the European Court changed the rules so that civic and social issues such as this would not be adjudicated on in this way. Once again, the Government over-promised and under-delivered.
We will digest the details of the draft Bill, and will work with the Government to ensure that it receives the pre-legislative scrutiny that it deserves. Like my predecessors in the last Labour Government, I am unhappy with the European Court’s ruling on prisoner voting. I think that the Court got it wrong. This is not a case of our Government failing to hold free or fair elections, or an issue of massive electoral fraud; it is a case of offenders, sent to prison by judges, being denied the right and the privilege of voting, as they are denied other rights and privileges. This issue should be within the margin of appreciation that nation states are given by the European Court.
Let me make clear that I am passionate about punishing and reforming offenders. I believe in intervening aggressively to address the offending behaviour of prisoners, ensuring that they can read and write, addressing alcohol and drug dependency, treating mental illness, providing job training so that prisoners can find employment later, enabling them to work in prison and to find somewhere to live, providing a mentor to help them with those tasks, and much more. I meet many offenders, ex-offenders and experts, and I know that the idea that depriving prisoners of their votes makes them more likely to reoffend —or less likely to reintegrate themselves in society—is absurd.
That being said, I respect the rule of law, and we must uphold it. We do not and cannot abide only by judgments with which we agree. This issue is part of the bigger picture of our membership of the European convention, a membership of which Labour Members are proud. We acknowledge its role in protecting human rights throughout Europe for more than 60 years, and the fact that it gives the United Kingdom more leverage over other countries that are less scrupulous in their approach to human rights. It allows us to press others to improve their human rights records, just as the Foreign Secretary rightly did this week with the Syrian opposition coalition.
Parliamentarians need to know the Government’s legal advice on what is needed to enable our obligations under the convention to be discharged. We also need to be clear about the ramifications of any decisions that Parliament makes, as there is a risk that choosing the wrong option could lead to compensation claims from prisoners and to our being in breach of the rule of law. That is why I wrote to the Justice Secretary last week—as I did to his predecessor—to request that his legal advice be published so that Members in all parts of the House could make an informed judgment. He has not responded yet.
I should be grateful if the Lord Chancellor would answer a number of questions. Will he make available to the House the legal advice on which his draft Bill relies, and if not, why not? Does he agree with all the Attorney-General’s views on this matter? When will Parliament vote on his three options, and which of them will he recommend to the Joint Committee and the House? Finally, will he confirm that no compensation will be paid as a result of the announcement that he has made today?
Chris Grayling
I am sorry that the shadow Justice Secretary did not take the measured approach that was taken by the shadow Home Secretary at the weekend. When he talks of a lack of consistency and commitment, he should remember that the Attorney-General went personally to Strasbourg to argue the case for this country. That does not suggest to me any lack of determination on the Government’s part.
The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned the previous Lord Chancellor. I pay tribute to him for the progress that he made in the Brighton declaration. These are not easy matters. We are dealing with a very large number of countries, and it is difficult to reach unanimous agreement. I think that my predecessor took a good first step towards securing the reforms that are needed—and I agree that reforms are needed: indeed, I personally take the view that further reforms are needed. I think that I have been very clear about that over the past few weeks. Unless and until such reforms happen, however, we must also recognise the reality of our international obligations, and Parliament must decide what approach it wants this country to take. Having heard the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks, I am not entirely certain what approach he wants us to take, but I think it important for Parliament to be in a position to make the decision.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the legal advice. I do not think that the Attorney-General’s views on this matter are any great secret: he has given evidence to Committees of this House during the last few weeks. Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman will recall that on no occasion under the last Government was advice given to them by the Attorney-General willingly published. However, I will give careful thought to the issues that he has raised. I want to be as helpful as possible to the Joint Committee, and I am willing to consider what methods are available to us that are appropriate and follow due precedent.
The right hon. Gentleman asked for clarification of the implications of all this. It involves complex matters that need to be discussed by Parliament, which is precisely why we need pre-legislative scrutiny and should not head straight into a Bill. Both this Government and the last Government have talked about the importance of pre-legislative scrutiny, and this is exactly the kind of Bill that requires it. The right hon. Gentleman also asked about voting intentions. That is a matter for the House to consider. When we reach the point at which a Bill is before the House, every Member will consider how he or she wishes to vote, but, for now, let us wait and see what the Committee comes up with.
As for the right hon. Gentleman’s question about compensation, I hope that the Court will—as it should—view my announcement as the first step in the process that it has asked us to complete, and that the issues to which he referred will not arise.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
If the House agrees to the establishment of a Joint Committee, should not that Committee consider other options, such as restoring voting rights only in the last stages of a sentence? What makes me feel sick is the thought either of criminals cashing in from compensation because we have not sorted this out, or of Britain using the same arguments against international human rights jurisdictions as states with truly appalling human rights records.
Chris Grayling
Let me say in answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question about the different options that it will be for the Committee to decide whether there are other elements that it wishes to see in a Bill. We have tried to put together a simple framework within which consultation and discussion can take place. That will undoubtedly involve considering whether there are other options, in terms of either the scope of the Bill or some of the operational issues that underpin it.
As for the right hon. Gentleman’s point about other countries, I must make clear that I do not equate a legitimate democratic debate about these matters in this democratic House of Parliament with some of the extraordinary abuses of human rights that we have seen elsewhere in the past, and all too often today. These are very different issues.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
Does the Justice Secretary accept that on matters of fundamental human rights, the United Kingdom, under successive Governments, has been impeccable in observing the judgments of the Strasbourg Court, even—for example, in respect of terrorist suspects—when it has disagreed profoundly with those decisions? Long may that continue.
Given that we are talking about the rule of law, does the Justice Secretary also accept that—in breach of ideas of the rule of law that are based on consent—the Strasbourg Court has extended its jurisdiction from fundamental human rights to social and civic rights, for which we have not signed up? As Lord Hoffmann, the former Law Lord, has said, the Court “lacks constitutional legitimacy” in respect of such matters, and
“has no mandate to unify the laws of Europe”
on subjects of this kind.
Chris Grayling
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. I think it is worth recalling that when the convention was written, back in the 1950s, Stalin was in power in Russia and people were being sent to the gulags without trial. That is what the convention was all about, but over the past 50 or 60 years the Court has moved it away from those fundamentals, and into a territory that many of us find deeply unsettling and wrong. I think there is a compelling case for reform, but while the current situation continues, we must none the less respect the laws of which we are part, and put to Parliament the questions that I am putting to it today.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
As the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) has just demonstrated, this is a non-partisan, parliamentary issue—a matter of debate across the House. In that context, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on doing exactly the right thing in the Bill and handing the decision back to Parliament. I am sure, given the debate that the right hon. Gentleman and I secured some time ago, that the House will effectively decide on the status quo, but that is for the House to decide. If that is what the House decides, does he accept that it will set a precedent, and that every time the European Court goes beyond the remit set by the treaty, to which we did sign up, Parliament will reserve the right to correct it and put things back into proper law?
Chris Grayling
My right hon. Friend has set out clearly the legal position: Parliament has that right. It has been endorsed in the comments made to a Committee of this House by the Attorney-General, as it was in the House of Lords 13 years ago by Lord Justice Hoffmann. That is the legal position—Parliament is sovereign, and long should it remain so.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Are we not in grave danger of insisting on the British way on a relatively insignificant matter and giving an open invitation to other, oppressive countries in Europe to mistreat their prisoners? I recall meeting a woman in a Turkish jail who had been given a 35-year sentence for murdering her abusive husband. As someone who has been involved in these matters for the past 15 years in Europe, may I say that we are sending out a signal that other countries may behave in line with their own national interests and traditions, and that those traditions are to oppress their prisoners and to ignore human rights?
Chris Grayling
If the Court in Strasbourg were following those fundamental principles to which the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) referred a moment ago and concentrated on serious human rights problems, the issues we are talking about today simply would not have arisen.
Mr Speaker
It is time to call a knight of the realm. I call Sir Gerald Howarth.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
In thanking you, Mr Speaker, and in congratulating my right hon. Friend, may I suggest to him that it is an affront to the British people that judges from such A-list countries as Andorra, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg should be seeking to usurp the judgments of this sovereign Parliament? In so doing, they have, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) implied, discredited themselves. It is not we who are discredited by this judgment; it is they who have discredited the Court.
Chris Grayling
I know that my hon. Friend has strong views on these matters. What I would say as Lord Chancellor is that it is important always to remember that judges, whoever they are and in whichever court they are, be it the European Court or a national court, have the right to reach the decisions they reach. We may violently disagree with those decisions, but they have the right to reach them, and it would be a sad day when they no longer had that right. Our job and duty as legislators—the job of national Parliaments such as this—is to exercise sovereignty when we wish to do so. If we do not like the decisions that judges take, we always have at our disposal the ability to change the law. My statement today indicates to Parliament that the legal precedents before it are very clear: it has the right to disagree with the decisions reached in the Court in Strasbourg, but it would be for Parliament to decide whether it wishes to exercise that sovereignty.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Do the Government want to pass this decision to Parliament without providing it with the legal advice or any estimate of the potential compensation claims that might be met if we do not comply?
Chris Grayling
Absolutely not; I intend to be as helpful as possible to Parliament. Indeed, my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has already been extensive in his evidence-giving to Parliament about the legal position. There is no secret and nothing to hide; we want Parliament to have access to all the sensible advice. I am certain that my right hon. and learned Friend will be willing to give evidence before the Joint Committee.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
Just because there may be a bipartisan consensus does not mean that it is right or rational, and it certainly does not include me. May I volunteer to serve on this Joint Committee, and may I ask those who give evidence the following? Is denying the vote to someone who has been sentenced to jail after being convicted of a crime a deterrent? It clearly is not. Is it a punishment, given that most criminals have not voted in their lives? Is it a penance? Or is it part of rehabilitation? Having discussed Strasbourg, we ought to start discussing why we are doing this to prisoners.
Chris Grayling
It is clearly a matter for Parliament to decide. There may be divided opinions, in different ways, on whether or not to give votes to prisoners and on which form any reform should take. That will be debated in the coming months, but surely it is ultimately the job of Parliament to decide which of many options it wishes to adopt.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Can the Lord Chancellor confirm the position on judges’ discretion on sentencing and the sentencing guidelines? Is there room in the Bill for that, given that the length of sentences could change over time?
Chris Grayling
It would not be my intention to try to add additional dimensions to the Bill. It is important that it concentrates on the core issues in relation to prisoner voting and the decisions of the European Court. There will be other opportunities to debate matters relating to sentencing when we discuss Bills that are before the other place and will, I trust, be before this House in the coming years.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his robust position. Can he confirm that the legal advice is that Parliament, not the European Court, has the final say? Will Ministers be free to vote for no change?
Chris Grayling
As regards voting, I shall leave that question until we see what the Committee has brought forward. As for Parliament having the final say, I can tell my hon. Friend that it absolutely does so. That is clearly what the Law Lords ruled 13 years ago and it is clearly what the Attorney-General has advised. It is also absolutely right—our national Parliament should be sovereign.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
Let us suppose that this House were to accept the most modest of the Minister’s extensions of voting rights to prisoners—the option for sentences of less than six months. What assurances can he give us that at some point in future that, in itself, would not be found to be incompatible by the European Court?
Chris Grayling
It is unlikely; the indications from the Court are that a level of reform of that kind would be sufficient to satisfy it that we had conformed to the judgment. That is one reason we have put that option in the Bill for consideration. A number of people have suggested more minor changes, but we do not believe that those would be sufficient to satisfy the Court. One can never say never about anything, but our expectation and belief is that that option would end this matter for the foreseeable future.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
What sanctions are available to the European Court of Human Rights to apply against the UK Government if they are judged not to have complied with the judgment sent down?
Chris Grayling
Ultimately, if this Parliament decides not to agree to rulings from the ECHR, it has no sanction. It can apply fines in absentia, but it will be for Parliament to decide whether it wishes to recognise those decisions, as it is with all decisions. Of course, as Lord Justice Hoffmann said in 1999, there are political consequences for the UK if Parliament chooses to take that decision.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
It is right and proper that convicted prisoners should not be able to vote while they are in prison. I very much welcome the Minister’s commitment to consult the Scottish Government at the pre-legislative stage, but may I seek his assurance that he will prioritise keeping to a minimum the burden on the Scottish Prison Service, the Scottish Court Service and those who administer elections?
Chris Grayling
I will certainly give the hon. Lady that commitment. I should say that I spoke to the Scottish Justice Secretary this morning ahead of this statement, as I did to his counterparts in the other devolved Administrations. It is important that they play a part in the discussions that lie ahead. Of course, one factor that needs to be a part of the discussion is what the burdens will be on those who have to administer systems to provide prisoners with the vote, if indeed that is what Parliament chooses to do.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Prison governors have more regular contact with prisoners than any of us in this House. Does the Justice Secretary therefore agree with the past president of the Prison Governors Association, who has said:
“The blanket ban on sentenced prisoners’ voting is out of step in a modern prison service and runs counter to resettlement work which aims to ensure that prisoners lead a responsible, law-abiding life on release”?
Chris Grayling
What my hon. Friend has just brought before the House is one example of the kind of views I expect to be submitted to the Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament. I am sure that the views of prison governors will be listened to with interest.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Of the 43 member countries of the European conventions, which ones maintain a blanket ban on prisoner voting?
Chris Grayling
Seven countries have done so. Most recently, Italy was before the Court and has made an amendment to its system. Of course, each country will form its own decision based on the system it has in place and the sovereignty of its Parliament. There has been some suggestion that ours is the only country that has even contemplated failing to implement a decision of the European Court, but I should tell the House that if we look at the record of different members of the Council of Europe for implementing decisions over the years, we see that this country stands near the top of the list.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to nail the myth about the so-called blanket ban? We do not have a blanket ban in this country; remand prisoners, contemnors and fine defaulters retain the right to vote. Will he assure me that it is for this Parliament to consider a range of options, which I hope the Joint Committee will consider carefully?
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend makes an important point about those in our prisons who vote, including fine defaulters, people on remand and people who are between verdict and sentence. I can give him an absolutely clear assurance that it will be for Parliament to decide whether it wishes to see more prisoners with the vote or simply to retain the number at that level.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will know that the Edinburgh agreement devolves the franchise in the forthcoming independence referendum to the Scottish Parliament but that Acts of the Scottish Parliament have a very different relationship with the European convention on human rights from Acts of this Parliament. Have the Scottish Government contacted him to put on record their position about whether prisoners will have the right to vote in the referendum? Should any prisoner decide to sue, will that Government or this Government be liable in the courts?
Chris Grayling
The legal position is very clear: this is a reserved matter for this Parliament and not for the devolved Assemblies. As I mentioned, I have already had a discussion with the Scottish Justice Secretary. Clearly, one issue that will have to be addressed in the pre-legislative process is what will happen with the Scottish referendum. We have already started that conversation and it will continue.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Should we not set store by precedent? Am I right in believing that when we signed up to the convention, before the 1960s, those serving as misdemeanours for fewer than six months were allowed to vote but felons serving for more than six months could not? Of course we must be sovereign, but is that not the sort of compromise that could be reached to ensure our continued membership of the Council of Europe?
Chris Grayling
That is a very interesting point. It will be for my hon. Friend, given his expertise on these matters, to make representations to the consultative Committee, which we hope will be able to consider all these issues before it forms a view of what this Parliament should do.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, which was very clear. I understand that no matter what the European Court says in the future, if Parliament decides that prisoners will not get the vote, with which I agree completely, that is the end of the matter. What if compensation claims are still made and won in the European Court? Will the Government refuse to pay out any compensation?
Chris Grayling
If Parliament decides not to change the current position, that will clearly, as per the ruling from Lord Justice Hoffmann, generate a political issue between the United Kingdom and the Council of Europe. The Joint Committee will wish to consider that as part of its deliberations. As for the consequences, we cannot know what they will be until that decision has been taken. The legal position is very clear. The hon. Gentleman mentioned fines, and as I said earlier, this Parliament is ultimately sovereign and can decide whether it will accept a ruling of the European Court of any sort or whether it will not.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Many members of the public will believe that this decision is because of the Human Rights Act. As the Lord Chancellor has said very clearly that it is not, will he confirm whether he supports repealing that Act?
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the question refers back to the original convention and the structures that have been in place since the 1950s. I support reform of that system and I have been quite clear that I intend on behalf of my party to introduce proposals before the next election. If the whole House decides to adopt those proposals, that will be great. Otherwise, we will fight the campaign on them.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will not the whole of the British people welcome the fact that the Secretary of State for Justice has come to the Dispatch Box and put their views first, making this Parliament sovereign and ignoring the Mickey Mouse court in Europe?
Chris Grayling
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind comments. He has been a great champion of the rights of Parliament and I think that Parliament’s role in this and other matters is enormously important. I am very glad to put it at the centre of a vital decision for this country.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
May I commend the approach taken by my right hon. Friend? This is a matter for Parliament and Parliament alone to decide, but the processes he has outlined to the House today, including pre-legislative scrutiny, will take some time. Can he assure me it that will be drawn to the attention of the Court that this House will need a proper amount of time to consider these detailed matters and for reflection?
Chris Grayling
I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. Pre-legislative scrutiny is a part of the legislative process that is now supported strongly on both sides of the House. It has been used on many occasions for other Bills. In the case of a Bill as controversial and with as many permutations as this one, I shall make it very clear to the Court that this is the start of a parliamentary process and an important part of the response to what it has asked us to do.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
Many people will accept that prisoners serving custodial sentences rightly surrender many of their civil and social privileges and rights. What does the Secretary of State think about the proposal that one determining factor on reinstating any of those rights to vote should be proximity to the end of a sentence?
Chris Grayling
There is a perfectly coherent argument to be made by those who believe that, and it is undoubtedly one of the areas I expect to be discussed by the consultative Committee. I should also say that I would expect the different Select Committees with an involvement in this area to want to contribute to the process, too. I have no doubt that what the hon. Gentleman has just described will be one of the options discussed.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
The option that gives prisoners with lower sentences the opportunity to vote would therefore include some prisoners who have been convicted of electoral fraud. Does the Secretary of State regard that as appropriate?
Chris Grayling
We have different rules for those convicted of electoral fraud, who are banned from voting for an extended period. The Government have no plans to change that, but the issue will be discussed as part of the review process and we will see the will of Parliament. I do not believe that that is necessarily the same legal issue as the broader one about the availability to prisoners of the right to vote.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on emphasising the importance of parliamentary sovereignty. In that context, will he assure us that this is not an area in which the European Union and the fundamental rights agency have any competence whatsoever?
Chris Grayling
I wish I could give my hon. Friend that complete assurance, but there is another case pending on the right to vote on European elections, rather than national elections, that will be heard in our Supreme Court next summer. That is another thing that is not entirely welcome, but we will have to see what the judgment is when the time comes.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
I am still not clear about the issue of compensation. What advice has the Secretary of State received about what the situation will be if Parliament restates the present position and current prisoners decide to claim compensation?
Chris Grayling
The legal position remains that Parliament has the right to say no to any decision of the European Court of Human Rights, whatever that might be. It is clear that that is its absolute right but, as Lord Justice Hoffmann said, there is a political consequence of doing so. I do not make light of the challenge or debate that would follow if the decision were not to give prisoners the vote.
Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
The Secretary of State has just mentioned that a number of leading EU countries have ignored judgments of the ECHR on the grounds of parliamentary sovereignty. It was stated at the time that their international reputation in various forums, such as the UN Human Rights Council, would suffer. Is there any evidence of that happening and has any analysis being carried out?
Chris Grayling
I have no evidence of such issues. Some people have suggested that if Parliament chooses to exercise its right of sovereignty, the UK would become a pariah state, but I must say very clearly that I simply do not accept that. I believe that Parliament has the right to exercise its sovereignty. It will be for Parliament to decide in this situation whether it wishes to exercise that sovereignty, but I do not believe that if it chooses to do so, Britain will somehow turn into a nation with an appalling human rights record. Our human rights record stands comparison with anyone’s.
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
As a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, I have had the opportunity to discuss the issue with senior members of the European Court of Human Rights in a particular context. There are 47 member states of the Council of Europe and very many of them—France is one; Malta is another—hold prisoners for very long periods without trial in clear breach of the convention on human rights, about which the ECHR chooses to do precisely nothing. Would it not be a good idea for the ECHR to concentrate on enforcing article 5 and such matters rather than meddling, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) has said, in matters that are not even within its remit?
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is the problem; at the moment, we have a Court that is drowning in hundreds of thousands of cases in areas that the originators of the convention would never have considered relevant to what they were creating. That has taken the judges in Strasbourg away from the fundamental principles that they are supposed to be there to protect, so I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
The European convention on human rights was set up in the aftermath of the second world war to ensure that the horrors of Nazi Germany never happened again. It was never the intention of its framers to give Albert Speer and Rudolf Hess the vote. Does not that make it clear that there is a difference between the convention and the Court? That is why Parliament will have a moral mandate to defy the Court.
Chris Grayling
I really believe that is the central issue, which is why I feel so passionately that we need to reform the system, which has moved a long way from the noble motives of its conservative creators, who were trying to address some of the appalling situations that people in Europe found themselves in at the time. It was not about whether prisoners had the right to vote; it was about people being put in mental hospitals for the rest of their lives without trial as an excuse for taking them out of the political process. That is the kind of thing we should be fighting.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on doing something previous Secretaries of State for Justice have not done, which is invoke parliamentary sovereignty, but I gently suggest that that takes us only so far. It is likely that ambulance-chasing compensation claims will be made, so will he indicate what steps he is taking now, by way of contingency planning, to prevent any prisoners from making claims, in either the European Court of Human Rights or English courts, for denial of their alleged human rights?
Chris Grayling
I cannot say too much about all the detailed plans I have at the moment—I am in the early stages of thinking through some of the broader issues—but one point I will make is that I have asked the question about the use of the legal aid system for purposes that I do not believe it was designed for. I hope to bring forward further thoughts on that before too long.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my recently published book on prison reform.
I have represented hundreds of people who were in prison, not one of whom ever said to my good self that they were busting for a chance to vote; I assure the Secretary of State that that was not the intention of many I represented. What is the proposal in the option for considering short sentences of a few weeks or even a few days in custody?
Chris Grayling
Under the proposal to give the vote to prisoners who have received a sentence of either six months or less or four years or less, someone given a very short sentence would be eligible for a postal vote in prison. Of course, whether or not they are given that vote would depend on what Parliament and this House decide.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I am appalled by the lack of legal training for so many of the so-called judges of the European Court of Human Rights, incensed by the Court’s repeated attempts to traduce the sovereignty of the British Parliament, and cognisant of the fact that there would be no Court and no human rights in Europe if this country had not stood alone against Hitler in 1940. My constituents want their MP to vote to ban prisoners from voting, and in that they will not be disappointed.
Chris Grayling
We have had one or two early statements of intent from Members, some of which have not surprised me at all. I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly about these matters and is an effective advocate for both his constituency and his point of view on these issues, which I know is shared across the House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) made clear, those views are not unanimous across the House and, therefore, I think that we will have a constructive and lively debate before Parliament reaches its view on the way forward.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
I strongly welcome the stance my right hon. Friend has taken. Does he agree that everybody supports the concept of genuine human rights but it is this sort of nonsense, whereby the Court interferes in the internal affairs of a country with an impeccable record and tries to micro-manage our system, that gives the whole concept of human rights a bad name and undermines the work the Court should be doing?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely agree. It is a little-known fact that at university I was chairman of the Amnesty International group and campaigned for Soviet prisoners of conscience. That work is a world away from some of the areas the Court is currently considering, which is why I believe it needs serious reform.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments today about Parliament being sovereign on this issue and on how he is vigilant on legal aid. It would be completely unacceptable to my constituents to see legal aid paid to convicted criminals.
Chris Grayling
On legal aid, there will always be people we might find repellent but for whom we must provide financial support so that they can defend themselves in a fair and open justice system, but that does not mean that our legal aid system should be open to abuse for purposes it is not intended to serve. That is why I have asked my officials to look closely at that area and consider what changes are necessary.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State clarify that it will be open to Parliament to decide that non-violent offences tried summarily by the magistrates would comply with the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights and that using the sentencing guidelines and the experience of the judiciary, which is independent of interference and hears the evidence, should be a vehicle for deciding whether or not prisoners are entitled to vote?
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend has put forward a further option for the eventual legislation, and I encourage her to take it to the Committee for its consideration.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
My constituents are horrified by the prospect of prisoners being given an entitlement to vote. Further to the issue of those given short sentences, will the Secretary of State comment on the position of offenders who are given community sentences?
Chris Grayling
Those who are given community sentences are currently still able to vote and we have no intention of changing that, although one option that has been adopted in some other European countries, Italy particularly, is having tighter rules for those released after a prison sentence. That is clearly an option that the Committee might wish to consider.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
I was pleased to hear my right hon. Friend say that he will uphold our obligations under international law. I welcome the middle option of six months or fewer as something that those of us who are not implacably opposed to prisoners having the right to vote under any circumstances could consider. Will he qualify that further and comment on whether further restrictions could be added to that option—for example, eliminating from the list of eligible people those who have a record of violence or taking into consideration their previous convictions?
Chris Grayling
Those issues could certainly be discussed, but the Court has indicated to us that, were we to implement a measure that took the bar lower than the six-month sentence point, it would be unlikely to see our approach as compliant with the original ruling. Whether an exception for violence could be made is a matter that needs careful consideration in Committee. I do not have the legal basis to rule it in or out at the moment, but the six-month threshold is certainly where the Court has indicated that it sees the line being drawn.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that not only is it fundamentally wrong for prisoners to be given the vote, but it is British courts that see all the evidence and take away the freedom of those people, so why on earth should it be European courts that overrule us?
Chris Grayling
As a great believer in the principle of subsidiarity, I think that, where possible, national courts should take decisions on all but the highest points of principle. That, of course, is not where we are at the moment with the European Court of Human Rights, which is taking decisions on issues that, in my view, should certainly be a matter for national courts.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
The Secretary of State is absolutely right: this is not just about the important matter of prisoner voting; it is about the even more important matter of the very sovereignty of this House and this Parliament. To that end, can he reconfirm that the legal advice is clear and unequivocal that it is this Parliament, not the European Court of Human Rights, that has the final say on this important matter?
Chris Grayling
I absolutely confirm that. That advice has come from distinguished legal figures at both ends of this Parliament, from the former Law Lord, Lord Justice Hoffmann, and a current distinguished legal figure, my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, who have given identical advice on the sovereignty of Parliament and its right to take the final decision on the matter.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I warmly welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement and look forward to being able to vote again in favour of maintaining the status quo. In the meantime, will my right hon. Friend please confirm that the pre-legislative scrutiny will in no way be rushed and that when the Joint Committee comes to consider the draft Bill every single issue will be explored and every interested person will be given the time and opportunity to put their views in full and to be examined about them?
Chris Grayling
Given the wide range of views expressed in the House today, it is clear that there will be an extensive and broad-ranging debate, and it would be entirely wrong to curtail the parliamentary process and prevent legitimate views from being heard.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that voting is a right, but it is also a responsibility? Prisoners are in prison precisely because they have shown a lack of responsibility, so they should not have the right to make decisions over other people by voting in elections.
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend has articulated one of the clear views held in the House on this issue. The issue commands very strong opinions, and I believe that today I have offered Members such as my hon. Friend the opportunity not simply to express their view, but to vote to express it.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I absolutely agree that deciding whether prisoners should have the right to vote is properly a matter for this Parliament, but I am concerned that the United Kingdom may well find itself either asked to pay fines or outside the judgment of the European Court. Britain has an admirable reputation for leading the world in respect of the rule of law, so will my right hon. Friend work with the other 46 members of the Council of Europe to find ways of avoiding the confrontation we seem to be heading for, which will almost inevitably involve curtailing the ambitions and scope of the European Court?
Chris Grayling
I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. It is my view that reform must come, and I am very pleased to have heard today that that is clearly the view of Opposition Members as well. The former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), made a good start with the work done before the Brighton declaration, but my view is that there is a long way still to go on this matter.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
Parliament is rightly seeking to reflect the public’s horror at the prospect of prisoners getting the vote, so why not tap into that by putting the options in a referendum coinciding with the next police and crime commissioner elections, in which we want more people to vote?
Chris Grayling
That is an intriguing idea, but, sadly, I think the European Court will not allow us to wait four more years before reaching a final decision on this matter. I think Parliament will have to vote before then.
Bills Presented
Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Theresa May, supported by the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Danny Alexander, Secretary Chris Grayling, Secretary Jeremy Hunt, Secretary Maria Miller, the Attorney-General and Damian Green, presented a Bill to make provision about interviews held during certain investigations under schedule 3 to the Police Reform Act 2002; and about the application of part 2 of that Act to matters occurring before April 2004.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 93) with explanatory notes (Bill 93-EN).
Equality Act 2010 (Amendment ) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Frank Field, supported by Diana Johnson, Andrew George and Mrs Eleanor Laing, presented a Bill to amend the Equality Act 2010 to remove discrimination against women in relation to consecration of bishops in the Church of England; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 January 2013, and to be printed (Bill 94).
Judicial Review
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I am today announcing a review of the judicial review process.
Judicial review is a critical means of holding the Executive to account, ensuring that decisions are lawful. However, there has been a huge growth in the use of judicial review, which has expanded far beyond what was originally intended. In 1974 there were 160 applications for judicial review, but by 1998 this had grown to around 4,500 applications, and to around 11,000 by 2011. In 2011, for every application for permission to bring a judicial review that was granted, five were refused (a higher proportion was refused in immigration and asylum cases). In those cases where permission was granted, an even smaller proportion was successful.
Much of this growth is the result of an increase in applications to review decisions in immigration and asylum cases, but judicial review is also used as a means of challenging other types of decisions, for example, in planning matters, in large infrastructure projects, in procurement exercises and in other key reform programmes.
The Government are concerned about the burdens that this growth has placed on stretched public services. This can lead to unnecessary costs and lengthy delays, and may in some cases stifle innovation and frustrate much needed reforms, including those aimed at stimulating growth and promoting economic recovery.
The Government therefore intend to seek views on a package of options designed to tackle these problems. This package will include shortening time limits in certain cases, restricting the opportunities for an oral reconsideration of the application for permission in certain circumstances, and introducing new fees. The purpose of this is not to deny or restrict access to justice, but to provide for a more balanced and practicable approach, ensuring that weak, frivolous and unmeritorious cases are identified early, and that legitimate claims are brought quickly and efficiently to a resolution. In this way, we can ensure that the right balance is struck between reducing the burdens on public services, and protecting access to justice and the rule of law.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Grayling Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
4. What progress he has made in developing an evidence-based policy to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The Prime Minister has restated our determination to apply an intelligent approach to reducing reoffending. By 2015, I intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community. In addition, the National Offender Management Service published its commissioning intentions for the coming financial year on 1 November, clearly stating our commitment to evidence-informed commissioning.
Roberta Blackman-Woods
As the House heard earlier, the Ministry of Justice’s own survey has revealed that restorative justice can reduce reoffending by as much as 14%. These methods are being effectively used by probation and prison services in Durham, which has one of the lowest reoffending rates in the north-east. What further steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that this evidence-based approach is supported and has the necessary resources to be effective?
Chris Grayling
We are looking to allow for the greater use of restorative justice in the criminal justice system—for example, by allowing an element of restorative justice between a verdict and the sentence in court, to establish whether that can have an impact on the sentence that would otherwise be passed and the likelihood of the offender to reoffend. I would commend all those who are using restorative justice. It is a common-sense early intervention in the criminal justice system and there is no doubt that it is having an impact on offending rates.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
When the Secretary of State is developing his evidence-based policy, will he look at the Ministry of Justice’s own figures, which show that the longer people spend in prison, the less likely they are to reoffend, and that the lowest reoffending rate for any sentence handed down by the courts is for indeterminate sentences for public protection?
Chris Grayling
May I say clearly to my hon. Friend that I share his view? I think prison is a very important part of the criminal justice system, I believe that offenders should serve a prison sentence appropriate for the crime they have committed and I have given a clear commitment that there will be no strategy under my leadership of the Ministry of Justice to reduce the number of prison places artificially. I want to see the right people going to prison in the first place.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) spookily teed that up rather nicely for me. We all want to see policies based on evidence. The evidence tells us that the most effective means of protecting the public from convicted sex offenders is to keep them behind bars for as long as it takes to stop them being a threat. The Government took away so-called indeterminate sentences. It was a dangerous mistake and we said so at the time. When will the Secretary of State put that right and protect our citizens?
Chris Grayling
We have introduced longer determinate sentences to deal with the most serious offenders and, unlike the previous Government, we have introduced a “two strikes and you’re out rule” for the worst sex offenders, to ensure that if they offend for a second time, they will go to jail for the rest of their lives.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
5. What progress he has made on reform of the criminal injuries compensation scheme.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
7. What plans he has to review prisoners’ entitlement to privileges.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
It is really important that we ensure that the public have confidence in the prison system, and it is crucial that they are assured that any privileges earned in prison are gained through hard work and appropriate behaviour. In the light of this, the Prisons Minister and I have immediately moved to start a review of the policy around the incentives scheme for prisoners. We need to be confident that the system of incentives has credibility with the public. There are important operational reasons for the original policy, but we need to be clear that the incentives are pitched at the right level.
Mr Jones
Many of my constituents feel that some of the privileges provided in our prisons are far too soft on the inmates. How is my right hon. Friend preparing to reverse the tradition whereby many of our prison inmates have been left to pass their time in an enforced situation in which they are completely idle most of the day, with little or no meaningful activity?
Chris Grayling
First, I am quite prepared to make changes to the incentive regime in our prisons if it proves necessary to do so. I am absolutely clear that prisons should be places that rehabilitate, not places to which people have any desire to go back. It is equally important, however, that we have within our prisons proper processes to ensure that prisoners are trained and given work experience. One of the achievements of the current Government over the last few months is that we have seen a steady increase, under the stewardship of the previous Secretary of State, which the current ministerial team is now taking on, in the number of hours worked by prisoners in our prisons. That has got to be right.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
8. What plans he has to introduce a payment by results scheme to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
By 2015, I intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community. Providers will be commissioned to rehabilitate offenders, and those who are successful at reducing reoffending will be rewarded. I will announce detailed proposals shortly.
Amber Rudd
Studies such as the recent report from the Prison Reform Trust show that women have higher rates of reoffending. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on plans to divert women from custody in the first place, particularly those with short sentences?
Chris Grayling
I do agree. One of the first prisons I visited was Holloway. I saw at first hand the very different challenge we face with women offenders. One of the earliest steps I took was to separate ministerial responsibility for men and women in our prisons, asking the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) to take on the role of Minister with responsibility for women in prisons, and to look at whether we are getting the regime right and how we should adapt it to reflect the very different challenges we face with women in our prisons.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
9. What consideration the Government has given to the UK opting out en masse from EU Justice and Home Affairs directives.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced to this House on 15 October, the Government are currently minded to opt out of the measures included in the 2014 decision en bloc, and to consider which measures it is in our national interest to rejoin. This is a complex issue, and we are considering carefully the individual merits of each measure, continuing to work with law enforcement and criminal justice partners to do so. We are committed to a vote in both Houses before we finalise our decision.
Andrea Leadsom
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Will he tell me whether he is considering undertaking international co-operation on EU justice and home affairs rather than simply looking at the option of opting back in to specific EU directives?
Chris Grayling
I give my hon. Friend that assurance. It is absolutely clear that we can work with international partners effectively in fighting crime, as we do with non-EU allies around the world, without necessarily handing over sovereignty over these measures to the European Court of Justice. We are looking very carefully at where there is good reason to opt back in and it is in the national interest to do so, but we will not take those decisions lightly.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Yes. [Interruption.] I am fully awake, thank you.
The Members behind the Secretary of State are determined to break with so much to do with European law and Europe as a whole. Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the European convention on human rights, the European Court of Human Rights and all the advantages that have been given to people who would otherwise be denied human rights across Europe are very important, and that we should dedicate ourselves to supporting that principle even though at times a European court, just like a UK court, can make decisions that are inconvenient and are seen to be unhelpful to national Governments? That is the whole principle of the independence of the judicial system.
Chris Grayling
The European convention on human rights was written in the 1950s by Conservatives at a time when Stalin was in power in Russia and people were being sent to the gulags without trial. What has happened over 40 or 50 years is that the judgments around the human rights framework have moved a long way from the original intentions of the authors of the convention. That is why it is my strong belief that change has to happen.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
10. What progress he has made in encouraging tribunal judges to supply feedback to Department for Work and Pensions decision-makers on the reasons for successful employment and support allowance appeals.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
11. How many foreign national prisoners were repatriated to their home country to serve their custodial sentence in 2011.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The simple answer is “Not nearly enough.” In 2011, 32 foreign national prisoners and one British national were sent to other countries to serve their sentences. The number of prisoners being repatriated is still unacceptably small, as it has been for a number of years under both Governments. I am not satisfied with that, and I am determined to push the numbers up, but the House should be aware that this is a difficult issue. We need the collaboration of other countries, and we are working hard to secure it.
Nick Smith
What a dismal record. Back in November 2010, the Prime Minister said that he would “personally” lead a new drive to remove foreign prisoners. Given that the number repatriated in 2011 was just a third of the number in Labour’s last year in government, is this not yet another illustration of a Prime Minister who over-promises but under-delivers?
Chris Grayling
I will not take any lectures from a party that was responsible for the levels of immigration to this country that we have seen over the past decade. There are now fewer foreign nationals in our prisons than was the case under Labour. I intend to continue the drive both to deport people when they have finished their sentences, and to deport them through prisoner transfer agreements as soon as we possibly can.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend make it a departmental priority to negotiate compulsory prisoner transfer agreements with Commonwealth member countries, especially Nigeria and Jamaica, which seem to be the source of most of the foreign national offenders in our prisons?
Chris Grayling
I can give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance to that effect. The prisons Minister—my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright)—and I have met our Jamaican counterparts during the last few weeks. We are focusing our efforts to negotiate compulsory transfer agreements on the countries where the problem is greatest. Of course, what we inherited from the previous Government were voluntary agreements, which, as we all know, have a limited effect.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
15. What plans he has to use training and education to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
We fully recognise the importance of training and education in improving an offender’s chances of employment and thereby reducing reoffending. That is central to the reforms set out in the joint Ministry of Justice and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills strategy “Making Prisons Work”. My officials are also working with the Department for Work and Pensions to provide enhanced employment support via the Work programme.
Gordon Henderson
I have three prisons in my constituency—[Hon. Members: “Well done!”] Yes! They work very closely together, and have an excellent record of effective education and training. Will my right hon. Friend agree to visit Sheppey to see for himself the good work that is being done to reduce reoffending?
Chris Grayling
I pay tribute to all the staff who work in the three prisons in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I should be delighted to visit Sheppey in the next few months and see, with him, the work that is being done. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s constituents—not just those who work in the Prison Service, but those who provide it with support services. What Sheppey is doing for the criminal justice system is enormously important.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
Training for work and cutting back on drug use are two proven ways of reducing reoffending. Will the Secretary of State therefore comment on the independent monitoring board report on HMP Risley, showing that, because of Government cuts, training is being cut back and illegal drug use is increasing, thereby undermining officers’ past good work? That is likely to impose a further cost on the community if offending goes up as a result.
Chris Grayling
It is simply not the case that we are seeing the kind of problems the hon. Lady mentions across the prison system. The reality is that we have no choice but to deal with the financial challenges left behind by the previous Government. The trick is delivering a more effective system for less money, and that is what we are doing.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
16. What steps he plans to take to reduce the number of offenders serving repeated short sentences.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would just like to say a few words about the Abu Qatada case. I strongly support the comments that the Home Secretary made yesterday, and would indicate to the House that my Department will do everything it can to support the Home Office in its efforts to get Abu Qatada deported. All of us believe that the law should not operate in this way, and this case underlines my view that there is a real need for major changes to the way in which the European human rights framework operates.
Grahame M. Morris
May I refer the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) back to the answer she gave a few moments ago in response to the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat)? Given the importance of this to victims of workplace accidents and industrial diseases, will the Minister meet a small delegation of Labour MPs to receive representations on the implications of the proposal to amend the ceiling on small claims compensation?
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
T3. Is it not rather counter-intuitive, given the Secretary of State’s excellent views, to be closing rather than opening prisons? Why then are the Government consulting on closing Lincoln prison, which, as far as I know, has caused no trouble to the community since Eamon de Valera escaped from it during the first world war, and which provides 400 jobs, and humanely and safely locks our local villains away?
Chris Grayling
First, let me explain the context to my hon. Friend. We are in the middle of a programme of new for old in the Prison Service; we are bringing on stream new capacity as well as closing down old capacity, as part of a drive to bring down the overall cost of running the Prison Service by making the unit cost of each place cheaper. We are looking at a number of options, and no decisions have been taken on Lincoln prison. There is no proposal to close it, and I can assure him that I will personally be looking carefully at this issue, as I am well aware of the geographical circumstances of Lincoln, particularly the lack of good transport to other locations in the prison system.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Justice Secretary referred to the Abu Qatada case. We have also recently heard the ruling of Reading county court, which held that a same-sex couple had been discriminated against by a bed and breakfast owner who refused to let them stay in her B and B. Will the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice join me in welcoming that ruling?
Chris Grayling
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I never comment on individual cases, but I voted for the law behind that case and stand by the decision I took at the time to vote for it.
Sadiq Khan
Three minutes ago, the Justice Secretary commented on a case from yesterday. Three minutes later, he is unwilling to comment on a case from three weeks ago. He looks uncomfortable—does he think that he was wrong when, as shadow Home Secretary, he said:
“B and Bs should be able to turn away gay couples”?
Will he now apologise for those comments and commend the Equality Act 2010, which is doing so much to tackle discrimination in this country?
Chris Grayling
I was not aware that I was accountable to the House for Opposition roles, but I will say again to the right hon. Gentleman that I voted for the law as it stands and I stand by that decision.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
T4. Does my right hon. Friend have plans to use the opportunities provided by new technology in tracking offenders?
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
T2. The Association of Child Abuse Lawyers has expressed great concern about drastic changes to the rules on legal costs that are due in April next year. They believe that those changes could have serious implications for the victims of childhood abuse. Is the Secretary of State aware of those concerns and what does he propose to do about them, especially in view of recent events?
Chris Grayling
It is nice to get a serious question from the Opposition. These are sensitive issues and we have had to take difficult decisions about the legal aid system. We have the most expensive legal aid system in Europe and, given the financial challenges we inherited, no change was not an option. We will, of course, continue to review the impact of the changes we have made to ensure that there are no unintended consequences. I will not be afraid to reconsider some of those issues if it proves that what we have done has created a major problem.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
T5. Will the Secretary of State urgently review the proposed changes to the Bail Act 1976 contained in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012? In some cases, magistrates will be forced to free defendants who they know will fail to surrender, will commit further offences while on bail and, in some cases, will go on to intimidate witnesses? To make matters worse, as the 2012 Act stands, if those offenders breach their bail conditions, the magistrates’ hands will be tied and they will have no choice but to rebail them. Is this not a ridiculous state of affairs?
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
In his response to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) on the question of payment by results and reoffending, the Secretary of State talked about the importance of evidence. Will he share with the House his assessment of the reasons behind the failure of the Mayor of London’s Project Heron at Feltham?
Chris Grayling
Of course I am not responsible for the Mayor of London’s projects. On the question of our whole approach to the rehabilitation of offenders and the introduction of payment by results, the nature of payment by results means that we provide incentives to providers to deliver what works best. There is constant pressure in a payment- by-results system to find best practice and apply it in a way that delivers best results for offenders and for the taxpayer.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T6. The social impact bond from Peterborough prison to reduce reoffending was launched just over a year ago. Full results will only be available after year four. What assessment has the Secretary of State made so far of the effects of the work done? Has it reduced reoffending?
Chris Grayling
We have not yet done the assessment—the detailed work—but I think there are good grounds for believing that good work has been done, and I will provide more information in due course.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The lessons from the Qatada case are that it is quite difficult to deport people to jurisdictions that do not adhere to, as a basis, the UN convention on torture, for example. What is the Department doing to encourage jurisdictions outside Europe to sign up to a higher standard of international law, so that there is a greater sense of parallel of the rights of justice in this country, in Europe and in other parts of the world?
Chris Grayling
Of course, it is the role of Britain and other democratic nations to encourage non-democratic countries around the world to adopt democratic principles, the rule of law and a proper fair, independent judiciary. But I have to say that I do not believe it was ever the intention of those who created the human rights framework to which we are currently subject that people who have an avowed intent to do damage to this country should be able to use human rights laws to prevent their deportation back to their country of origin.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
T7. Does the Secretary of State believe that the election of police and crime commissioners on Thursday will help restore public confidence in the way that offences are dealt with in local communities?
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
T8. I wonder whether the Secretary of State might update the House on discussions he has had with the Home Office about deporting foreign national prisoners straight away when they complete their sentence in the UK.
Chris Grayling
We have regular contacts at both ministerial and official level and, of course, we now have the benefit of the presence of the former Immigration Minister, who brings knowledge of both sides of that challenge to our team. We intend to continue to work as hard as we can to secure the deportation of offenders after their sentences, as well as to transfer prisoners when we can during their sentences.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Has the Secretary of State any concerns that the provisions in the criminal injuries compensation scheme voted on by the House last night in terms of sex abuse victims aged between 13 and 15 are a dangerous and dubious legislative signal to be sent by this Parliament as its first legislative signal in the wake of the scandal concerning Jimmy Savile?
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
When innocent people can be framed on social media sites will the Government consider, with some urgency, looking at a certain part of the libel laws? Innocent people do not deserve to be named; they certainly do not deserve to be put through the grilling that certain people have faced. Would the Secretary of State and the Government look at that as a matter of urgency?
Chris Grayling
I am as concerned as anybody about what has taken place over the last two weeks. It is utterly wrong that anybody should have their name blackened inappropriately and falsely on any form of social media. Of course, the laws of libel apply equally to what is published on a Facebook or Twitter page as they do to what appears in printed form, so those who are damaged in that way have full legal redress to try and get proper justice done.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
What discussions are taking place between Ministers and officials in the Ministry of Justice and those in the Department for Work and Pensions in anticipation of the further burden that will be put on the tribunals service when the new personal independence payment comes in next year, because experience shows that the level of appeals resulting from benefit changes is very high?
Chris Grayling
We will continue to do everything we can to improve the process in both Departments. I am absolutely clear that we want to get the appeals process right, both in the tribunals service and in Jobcentre Plus, where we have introduced a mandatory reconsideration process. Ultimately, the reason we are doing all that is that there are large numbers of people out there who can return to work and make a better lot of their lives, which we want to help them to do, but unless we have a reassessment process, we will never find those people to deliver that help to.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does the prisons Minister realise that staff at HM Prison Northumberland, who have successfully merged two prisons and earned a positive report from the inspector, are sickened and infuriated that the public sector bid will not go through to the final market testing round because of promises from private sector providers that the Department might lack the capacity to verify?
Chris Grayling
I have a huge amount of sympathy for a family in that appalling situation. I have sat down and talked with many families who have lost loved ones as a result of violent crime and absolutely accept that our criminal justice system often does not seem responsive enough to their needs, does not explain enough to them what is happening and does not give them details of the process, even to the extent that an offender who has been convicted of a violent crime can be back on the streets without the victims knowing about it. That is why one of the first things I did as Secretary of State was appoint the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), as victims Minister so that there is someone in Government who is a champion for that cause and who will work with the next victims’ commissioner to ensure that we have a system that is as responsive as we can possibly make it.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
My understanding is that the Law Society and the Family Law Bar Association have come out in opposition to the fixing of a time limit for courts to conclude care cases, so will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to remind family lawyers, and indeed judges, that the implementation of a 26-week time limit remains a core policy objective and that lawyers should be preparing now to meet those targets?
Chris Grayling
I can assure my hon. Friend that we have made no changes to the plans. We always listen carefully to outside bodies, but no changes have been made and we are not considering making any.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
In view of the Qatada decision, has the Secretary of State considered requiring courts to take into account the likely cost to the public purse of their bail decisions, particularly in serious and high-risk cases?
Chris Grayling
I am happy to consider that matter further and write to the hon. Gentleman.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In view of what the Secretary of State has rightly said about the case of Abu Qatada, a prominent supporter of al-Qaeda, will he say a word or two about an opponent of al-Qaeda, namely the special forces sergeant who has been sentenced to an 18-month term of military detention for having kept a pistol that was presented to him in gratitude for his services by the Iraqi special forces? I realise that court martial procedures might be outside my right hon. Friend’s immediate area of responsibility, but will he reflect public concern over that very serious matter?
Chris Grayling
I am aware of the public concern. My hon. Friend will understand that I cannot comment about an individual case, and of course courts-martial fall under the remit of the Ministry of Defence. However, I would always hope that common sense will lie at the heart of every judicial decision in this country.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
Will the Minister give an indication of the cut-off date for claims under the criminal injuries compensation scheme? Victims of crime and their representatives need to know that date. Will it be Friday 23 November? Will it be Monday 26 November?
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Does the Lord Chancellor recall that in the reign of Henry VIII it was made high treason to take an appeal outside this kingdom? Has not the time come for this Parliament once more to legislate to prohibit appeals to foreign courts and to prohibit the judgments of foreign courts leading our judiciary?
Chris Grayling
I know that my hon. Friend has strong views on these matters. While I may not agree with every word he says, he will know that I have some sympathy with his frustration about international courts and the rulings that they make. That is why I am very clear that, in relation to the European Court of Human Rights, further reform is necessary.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
My constituent Jermaine Sheerin and his family are suffering a cycle of despair since he was convicted and received an indeterminate public protection sentence in 2007. He remains in prison, and sometimes in hospital, at risk of suicide. The Government have said that IPP sentences are wrong, so why are people who are currently serving them left in limbo?
Chris Grayling
It is difficult for me to comment on the individual case, because that is a matter for the probation authorities. We have put in place a package of longer sentences for more serious offenders. In relation to those who are still in prison on an indeterminate sentence, they will of course have to submit to the procedures that were law at the time. It is particularly important for us to know that they are safe to be released before they are released.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Stafford prison was built in 1794 and is one of the cheapest prisons in the country to run. Will my hon. Friend visit Stafford with builders of new prisons to see how it is done?