Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

3. What progress he has made on introducing payment by results for the rehabilitation of offenders.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

We want to introduce payment by results to incentivise providers to reduce reoffending. It makes sense as a way of improving effectiveness and getting a good deal for the taxpayer.

Our “Transforming Rehabilitation” consultation closed on 22 February 2013. We will respond to it and bring forward detailed plans in due course.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. There is, however, a concern that a payment-by-results approach can favour larger national companies. What measures are being put in place to ensure that local voluntary and charitable organisations, which often have a proven track record built up over many years, will not be squeezed out?

[Chris Grayling]

I agree with my hon. Friend. Within the voluntary sector, we find very many of the mentoring skills that I am so keen to harness in preventing reoffending. That is why we have a team in the Cabinet Office working with the voluntary sector to ensure that they are as well prepared as possible for this exercise, and why I am making it absolutely clear that I do not believe that winning contracts can take place without a contribution from the mentoring skills to be found in the sector.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

How does he intend to deal with the issue of payment by results in drugs rehabilitation? He will know that the Home Affairs Committee recommended the mandatory testing of prisoners on entry and exit from prisons. Will he look at that proposal, because it is the best way of ensuring that we break the devastating cycle of drug dependency?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not underestimate the drug challenge that we face. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware, from the work he has done on his Select Committee, how big a part drug addiction plays in the crime and disorder problems we face in this country. We are working closely with the Department of Health. He will be aware that we have many localised drug treatment pilots using payment by results. It is my clear objective to ensure that what we deliver in the Ministry of Justice synchronises carefully with the work that is being done with the Department of Health.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

18. A key objective of Government policy must always be to reduce the number of prisoners, and there is no better way to do that than through rehabilitation, which prevents reoffending. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to target rehabilitation at those who are serving less than 12 months, where it would be most effective?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the things that I have found most surprising about the system that we currently operate is that we do not currently provide all-round support for those who get sentences of less than 12 months. A central part of our reforms is to change that. It is this group who have the highest propensity to reoffend. It is simply not acceptable that we continue not to provide them with the same level of support as longer-sentenced prisoners when they leave jail.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I do not know whether the Secretary of State has looked at the National Audit Office’s response to his consultation. It says that, in the Work programme, the majority of providers were big private companies. It also says that it is likely that the most difficult, prolific offenders will not be picked and that there will be cherry-picking. So despite his warm words, does he not think that this is going the same way as his failed Work programme? Is he intending to have moved on before this fails as well?

[Chris Grayling]

I hate to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but the Work programme is succeeding in getting very large numbers of people into work, and is delivering much better value for the taxpayer than the programmes that we inherited from the previous Government. The truth is that the National Audit Office has contributed some valuable thoughts to our preparations for this exercise. I have listened to its contributions, as I will listen to all contributions, and we will deliver the most sensible, rounded package, particularly one that ensures that no one is left at the fringes of the system and that we provide rehabilitation and support to all offenders.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of reoffending rates; and if he will make a statement.

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[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

6. What discussions he has had with the devolved Administrations on the proposed opt-out from the EU third-pillar arrangements.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Before the Home Secretary’s announcement, on 15 October last year, of our current thinking, my officials were in regular contact with colleagues in the devolved Administrations to inform the initial analysis of the measures subject to the 2014 decision. Those discussions have continued, and I was in Belfast in February meeting the hon. Lady’s colleague, the Justice Minister, David Ford, to discuss that very issue.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the Minister for his answer, but he will be aware that, as Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with a land border, moves to opt out of the third pillar could affect the effective operation of the European arrest warrant system between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Will he assure the House that the Northern Ireland Executive and the Justice Minister will be fully engaged in the issue, given its importance?

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give the hon. Lady that assurance. I very much recognise the issue that she mentions, which was discussed at my meeting with David Ford. I can reassure her that we are mindful of the situation in Northern Ireland and giving it due consideration as we reach our decision.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Why are Ministers not engaging properly with the House on those opt-in decisions, given that the five memorandums promised for mid-February have not yet been produced and the Government appear to be discussing with the Commission important opt-ins without having discussed them with important Committees of the House?

[Chris Grayling]

I can give my right hon. Friend, and indeed the House, a clear assurance that this Government will go further than any Government in ensuring that the House is involved in the decisions that are taken, and that as we reach agreement within the coalition on the way forward, we will need fully to engage Parliament, his Committee and, indeed, all the Committees with a vested interest in the matter, so that they are able to express a proper view on it.

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

7. What his Department’s policy is on victims of crime.

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[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

8. What representations he has received from the voluntary and charitable sector on his proposals to introduce payment by results for the rehabilitation of offenders.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

We want to open up rehabilitation services to a more diverse market and harness the expertise of the voluntary sector in dealing with the complex difficulties that repeat offenders face. We received more than 500 written responses to our recent consultation, including from the voluntary and charitable sector. We are considering them carefully and will introduce detailed plans in due course.

[Mark Pawsey]

Charities and the voluntary sector can play a big part in the rehabilitation of offenders. What information will be made available to bodies in the sector so that they have an opportunity to introduce effective strategies?

[Chris Grayling]

In April we will launch a justice data lab, which will allow all kinds of organisations involved in the issue to access data on reoffending so that they can be clear about the effectiveness of their work. We will do everything that we can to help them identify that impact in a way that encourages them in the role that they intend to play.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

17. One consequence of payment by results is that it creates working capital problems for many charitable and voluntary organisations. Social impact finance is one solution to bridging that working capital gap. What conversations has the Secretary of State had with Big Society Capital and others about promoting social impact finance in that area?

[Chris Grayling]

I have met personally with representatives of Big Society Capital and other organisations in the social finance sector. I believe that this is an enormous opportunity for the sector, and I want it to be involved in the work that we are doing. Combining the skills of the voluntary sector with the social finance sector could play a powerful part in what we are trying to achieve.

[Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)]

9. What powers there are to confiscate unauthorised property found in prisoners’ possession.

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[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

10. What the Government’s policy is on membership of the European convention on human rights.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

As a coalition Government, we remain committed to the European convention on human rights, and we are also closely involved in the process to reform the Strasbourg Court. Individual political parties will choose what approach to take at the next general election.

[Debbie Abrahams]

The Home Secretary wants to leave the European convention on human rights; the Justice Secretary has said that he is not too sure, but he wants to abolish the Human Rights Act. Apart from being another omnishambles, does that reflect their lack of commitment to human rights, the fact that they want to leave the European Union, or both?

[Chris Grayling]

What I think is far more shameful is the complete resistance by the Labour party to any measures designed to stop a situation in which terrorist suspects with a clear goal of doing damage to the citizens of this country can use human rights law to try to defend their right to stay in this country.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

This is ludicrous equivocation from the Government on the ECHR, which was written by a Conservative Home Secretary in the 1940s and 1950s. How can we possibly say to countries such as Turkey and Russia, where British citizens need to have their rights protected, that they should adhere to the ECHR when the Justice Secretary cannot even stand up for justice?

[Chris Grayling]

When I was younger I was a human rights campaigner, and my idea of human rights is not providing artificial insemination to prisoners in our jails. It is up to the Labour party if it wants to defend that. I am going to carry on arguing for change, and I hope that when we are a majority Government we will deliver it.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State not recognise that the ECHR has done a great deal to improve the lot of people who were discriminated against and abused in many countries across Europe. It is an important statement of intent by a large number of countries. Can he not just get behind the principle that human rights are universal? The universal declaration is important, and the European convention was a major landmark in improving human rights around the world?

[Chris Grayling]

The issue is not about the original convention, which contains a sensible balance of rights and responsibilities. The issue is about how far we have moved over 60 years from the original intentions of those who wrote the convention. That is why a change is desperately needed.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

11. What plans he has for the future of the probation service; and if he will make a statement.

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[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

16. What plans he has to ensure that high net worth defendants do not receive legal aid.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Ministry of Justice is considering ways in which high net worth defendants can be obliged to pay the costs of their defence privately, without receiving legal aid first. We have also announced measures to strengthen Crown court means-testing to help ensure that defendants who can pay towards their legal aid costs at the Crown court are made to do so. Last night, of course, there were additional provisions to the Crime and Courts Bill, which received its Third Reading in this House.

[Mr Bellingham]

I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for that encouraging reply, and I thank him for the work he is doing in this area, but does he agree that for far too long these rich defendants have had their cases financed through legal aid by the taxpayer, which is completely unacceptable at a time when he has had to make changes to the legal aid budget? Does he agree that more can still be done to access wealth from frozen accounts?

[Chris Grayling]

I very much agree with that, and, of course, the measures in the Crime and Courts Bill open the door to our doing that for the first time. I wish to see us recover funds from those who can afford to pay for their own defence.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Last week I launched the “legal services on the international stage” action plan. It sets out the immense contribution Britain’s legal services sector can make both to reinvigorate our economy and to ensure that Britain remains ahead in the global race. Legal services employ 340,000 people nationwide, and contribute over £20 billion to the UK economy. Beyond London, the north-west, Scotland and Wales are also emerging as centres of excellence. The Government want to encourage and export Britain’s leadership in this industry. The action plan we have published sets out how we intend to do that. It requires opening up legal markets abroad and selling the benefits of British law firms and the English legal system, as well as championing our offer to overseas legal students. I am sure the House will want to back our industry and the efforts both my Department and UK Trade & Investment are making to help our businesses spread our footprint around the world.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I thank the Justice Secretary for his reply, but may I draw his attention to the Public Accounts Committee’s damning report on the Ministry of Justice’s handling of the court translators contract? Again it is a case of being penny wise and pound foolish. Two hundred cases in England and Wales had to be cancelled, costing the public purse millions of pounds. Experienced and trained translators are still refusing to work with Capita, which was awarded the contract. Will the Minister, as part of his action plan, rescue our justice service and abandon this failed contract?

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[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I am sure the Justice Secretary agrees that we need not only to ensure that people do not become victims of crime in the first place, but that those responsible for crime are caught and dealt with appropriately by the criminal justice system. Burglary can have a devastating impact on the victims of crime and leave families traumatised. What are the Justice Secretary’s views on those accused of burglary being given a caution?

[Chris Grayling]

I regard burglary as an extremely serious crime. As I have said publicly, I also have reservations about the way cautions are currently being used, and I have been clear that we are looking at this as a matter of priority. I can reassure the shadow Justice Secretary that in fact, the length of time burglars spend behind bars is increasing, not decreasing.

[Sadiq Khan]

The right hon. Gentleman may therefore be interested to know that last year, 3,359 cautions were given for burglary, and in 2010 the figure was 3,484. There is concern that the use of more out-of-court disposals such as on-the-spot fines and cautions is cheapening our justice system. Although that may be desirable for the Treasury, it is not what law-abiding victims of crime want. The use of cautions and on-the-spot fines can lead to the public losing confidence in our criminal justice system. Does he agree and what is he going to do about it?

[Chris Grayling]

Actually, I do agree. I have reservations about the number of cautions being used. Of course, one has to remember that the current culture of the use of out-of-court settlements dates back to when the last Government were in power, and the use of cautions was much higher three or four years ago than it is today. I am very clear that we have to look again at the way cautions are used, and I have reservations about the way they are used for some serious offences. It is work we are currently doing.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

T5. What progress has been made on the Secretary of State’s plans to introduce a greater emphasis on education into the youth custodial estate?

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. May I push the Secretary of State on the question of victims, particularly the families of victims of murder? Just over 10 years ago, eight members of a family in my constituency were murdered, five of whom were children. One of the two men who were found guilty has been released by the Parole Board, which is considering releasing the other one. What sort of justice is it when this decision is not communicated to the family of the eight people who died?

[Chris Grayling]

I am absolutely clear that it is not acceptable for people who have been the victims of horrible crimes to discover, without their knowing anything about it, that those who committed those crimes, having served an appropriate sentence, are on the streets again. I intend to ask the new victims commissioner to look into this as a matter of urgency. Tragically, she has direct experience of how this can affect families, and I believe there is nobody better qualified to fulfil that role. I absolutely understand the point the hon. Gentleman is making.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

T6. A continuing issue is convicted criminals who hide their wealth or in other ways refuse to abide by financial assessment orders. Is there more we can do in this area?

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[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

T7. What is the minimum percentage that the Justice Secretary thinks needs to be in a contract for it to be considered a payment-by-results scheme?

[Chris Grayling]

I have been very clear that I find it profoundly unsatisfactory that people who get sentences of less than 12 months are not provided with supervision post-prison. The changes that we have put in place will include that group and people who receive community sentences. We must remember that 80% of those who end up in our prisons have completed a community sentence, so that part of our system is not working either.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

The risk posed by offenders can change, as was illustrated all too vividly by news reports from Chippenham last week. Under his proposals, how will the Secretary of State ensure that medium-risk offenders are assessed to enable them to receive attention from skilled and experienced probation officers should they become a higher risk to members of the public?

[Chris Grayling]

We are very clear that there has to be a simple mechanism for offenders whose risk profile is changing to be reassessed by a public probation officer. As a result of our consultation, we are working through the details of how that process should work. I am very clear that the responsibility for protecting the public from the risk of harm should and will remain with the public sector.

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[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

T9. After 1 April, the courts will be full of people defending themselves because they cannot afford professional advice and no longer have access to legal aid. What is the Department doing to ensure that everybody gets access to justice, not only those who can afford it?

[Chris Grayling]

Opposition Members must realise that they left behind not only the biggest deficit in our peacetime history, but also the most expensive legal aid system in the developed world. We must take tough decisions and have a system that is realistic, given our financial constraints. I believe we have achieved that with the reforms we have put forward. We will monitor the impact of those reforms and ensure that we adjust anything that needs to be adjusted. Opposition Members should not believe that there are alternatives to what we are doing.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Felmores approved premises in my constituency is located near a school, a nursery, a playground and a densely populated housing estate. Does my right hon. Friend agree that although the provision of such premises is essential, a location such as the one I have described is inappropriate? Will he encourage probation trusts to work with the local community to find alternative locations?

[Chris Grayling]

I have a lot of sympathy with my hon. Friend and I will ask the Minister responsible for prisons and probation whether he will work with him to look at the situation described. Clearly, it is not sensible to locate such facilities in highly sensitive locations, although my hon. Friend will agree that their provision in the community is vital.

[Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Government have proposed to move personal injury cases below a certain level into the small claims court, which will mean more people representing themselves in person. That is likely to mean that a lot more time will be needed for those cases, as well as a lot of negotiation, which will lead to more costs. How does the Minister think that such a move will save the public money?

[Chris Grayling]

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady has experience of the small claims court, but this plays to the point raised by her hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel). The small claims court is more of a mediation environment than a combative legal environment, and that is a better way of dealing with many of the smaller claims that people need to bring.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Jamaican and Nigerian nationals make up a big proportion of the foreign nationals in our jails. What progress is being made on negotiating compulsory prisoner transfer agreements with Jamaica and Nigeria so that we can send those people back?

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Schedule 2 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 means that a commanding officer does not automatically have to refer to the service prosecution authority incidents of sexual assault, voyeurism and exposure. Will the Minister talk to his equivalent in the Ministry of Defence to ensure that victims, whether in the civil service or the military, have access to the same justice as in the civil justice and military systems?

[Chris Grayling]

Access to justice is obviously important for everyone, but the matters to which the hon. Lady refers are for my colleagues at the Ministry of Defence. I am sure that they will note her comments in Hansard and be aware of what she has said.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

The Defamation Bill is a key piece of legislation, helping people to protect their reputations and supporting free speech. It was held up in the other place, but what progress is now being made and does it have a target date for Royal Assent?

[Chris Grayling]

I very much hope that now that cross-party issues on Leveson have been dealt with, there will be no obstacles to bringing forward the Defamation Bill in its original form, without the Lords amendments.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

On compensation for people with pleural plaques, will the Minister look at what has happened in Northern Ireland, which has overturned the House of Lords ruling and restored the right of people to sue in the civil courts for compensation for that condition?

Contingencies Fund Advance

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Ministry of Justice requires an advance to discharge its commitments which are set out in its supplementary estimate 2012-13, published on 13 February 2013 as HC 894 (CG supply estimates, supplementary estimates).

Parliamentary approval for additional resources of £1,157 million for existing services has been sought in a supplementary estimate for the Ministry of Justice. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £70,000,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund.

Group of States Against Corruption

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Council of Europe’s group of states against corruption (GRECO) has published today its fourth round evaluation report on the United Kingdom. This report focuses on the prevention of corruption of Members of Parliament, judges and prosecutors. Copies of the report will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

The report acknowledges the important steps to strengthen financial control across the Government following the expenses controversy but nevertheless, encourages the further reinforcement of transparency and accountability of Members of Parliament. In particular, GRECO notes the plans under way to regulate lobbying and to further develop the internal mechanisms for preventing and sanctioning misconduct. The report praises the reform introduced in recent years to safeguard the independence, impartiality and integrity of the judiciary and prosecution services. The report stresses, however, the need to ensure that judicial office holders are guaranteed permanent appointment and thereby recommends reducing the numbers of fee-paid judges in England and Wales.

The report contains eight recommendations, which are not legally binding, on which the United Kingdom is expected to report back to GRECO by 30 April 2014. A compliance report on the UK’s progress will follow.

Legal Aid Reform

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Chancellor’s autumn statement made it clear that further savings must be found from all areas of public expenditure.

Through the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 we have already reduced what we spend on legal aid for civil cases by targeting resources to those most in need. Criminal defence represents by far the largest element of our remaining legal aid spend, where we are still spending over a billion pounds a year. We are committed to ensuring that the criminal legal aid scheme of the future continues to protect people’s fundamental right to a defence. However, against a background of continuing financial challenge, we need to ensure we target our resources in that area too.

We are working to improve the efficiency of the criminal justice system as a whole, to move towards swifter resolution of cases before the courts.

We also need to look again at ensuring that defendants who can afford to contribute to their legal costs do so and that the legal aid system commands the confidence of the public. We are already taking steps in this regard to strengthen the effectiveness of the Crown court means-testing scheme which, from July 2013, will include powers to seize and if necessary sell a defendant’s motor vehicle if subsequently convicted. This is one of a raft of measures we are announcing today to help ensure that defendants contribute towards the cost of their otherwise taxpayer-funded defence.

In addition, we must consider how to achieve best value for money in the way we procure legal aid. We have already made clear our intention to introduce price competition in the criminal legal aid market, as the best way to ensure long-term sustainability and value for money. In a written ministerial statement laid on 1 December 2011, Official Report, column 74WS, we set out our intention to consult on proposals for competitive tendering in autumn 2013. Given the need to achieve savings as quickly as possible, we have decided to accelerate that timetable.

We therefore intend to publish an eight-week consultation on further reforms to legal aid in April 2013, which will include proposals to both improve the credibility of the legal aid scheme and reduce its cost to the taxpayer—one of these being price competition in criminal legal aid.

The revised indicative timetable for the development and implementation of our competition strategy is, subject to the outcome of consultation, as follows:

Consultation paper published—April 2013

Tender opens in competition areas—autumn 2013

First contracts go live—autumn 2014

The new contracts that we anticipate will be awarded in autumn 2014 will require contract holders to work digitally as part of the move to a digital criminal justice system.

Legal Aid Agency

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

I am pleased to announce that the Ministry of Justice will create the Legal Aid Agency, a new executive agency, on 1 April 2013.

The Legal Aid Agency will assume responsibility for the administration of legal aid in England and Wales from the Legal Services Commission, a non-departmental public body. On 1 April 2013 the Legal Services Commission will be abolished and the Lord Chancellor will become responsible for securing that legal aid is made available in England and Wales, in line with the provisions contained in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. That Act also contains the legislative provisions needed to abolish the Legal Services Commission.

Today the framework document which details the governance arrangements between the Department and the Legal Aid Agency has been published. The framework document will come into force on 1 April 2013. In line with the requirements for all executive agencies, the framework document sets out the overarching framework for the governance and accountability arrangements between the Department and the agency.

The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 also requires the Lord Chancellor to designate a civil servant as the director of legal aid casework. This is a statutory office, with the function of making independent decisions on whether to grant legal aid in individual cases. The director will assume this function on 1 April 2013, following the abolition of the Legal Services Commission. I have designated Matthew Coats as the first director of legal aid casework.

The creation of the Legal Aid Agency is an important step for the Ministry of Justice in strengthening the governance arrangements and accountability for legal aid, and ensuring that there is an appropriate delivery structure in place. Legal aid is a significant area of public expenditure and it is vital that its administration is undertaken by an appropriate body.

Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 will be commenced on 1 April 2013. Part 1 sets out the new framework for legal aid in England and Wales which, as well as the abolition of the Legal Services Commission, includes reforms to the scope of civil legal aid.

Copies of the framework document and code of conduct have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and on the Department’s website at: www.justice. gov.uk.

Transforming Youth Custody

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Government are today launching their consultation “Transforming Youth Custody: Putting Education at the Heart of Detention”. This forms the next step in delivering the Government’s rehabilitation revolution following publication of the “Transforming Rehabilitation” consultation last month.

Much has been achieved in the youth justice system. Overall crime and proven offending by young people are both down, fewer young people are entering the criminal justice system and the number ending up in custody has fallen. This is testament to the important work done by a range of passionate people working with young people to prevent offending.

But there remains a hardcore of serious and persistent young offenders for whom custody is the right place, and at present custody is delivering poor outcomes both for this group and for society. Seventy-five per cent of young offenders who leave custody reoffend within a year; education provision is patchy, meaning that many young people leave custody still lacking basic skills; and too often the support provided in custody falls away when an offender is released back into the community. On top of this, we are paying far too much for youth custody, close to £100,000 a place per annum, and in some cases more than £200,000.

Custody punishes by depriving offenders of their liberty, but we must also use that time constructively. It is an opportunity for young people to get help to tackle their offending behaviour and acquire the skills and self-discipline to secure placements in education, training or employment on release. My vision is for secure colleges which refocus a young person’s time in custody as education with detention, rather than detention with education as an afterthought.

To help me implement this change I want to seek ideas from the market on how it would deliver a secure college, drawing on the innovation and diversity of provision that characterises the free schools and academies reforms to education. If the consultation demonstrates that the market can deliver improved education and reoffending outcomes while driving down costs, I will seek to move quickly to launch a competition that will be open to all sectors.

I am today laying before Parliament “Transforming Youth Custody: Putting Education at the Heart of Detention”, copies will be available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

3. What progress he has made on his plans for the probation service; and if he will make a statement.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The Ministry of Justice recently published the consultation paper “Transforming Rehabilitation—a revolution in the way we manage offenders”, which sets out our plans for reforming the way in which offenders are rehabilitated in the community. The consultation closes on 22 February 2013, and we will announce further details of our proposals once we have considered the responses.

[Mrs Glindon]

Under the Secretary of State’s proposals, services will be fragmented across a wide range of providers and will be rewarded through payment by results, which will prevent public sector probation trusts from competing for those services. So how will he ensure that the high levels of performance now provided by probation trusts in protecting the public and reducing reoffending will be maintained?

[Chris Grayling]

Let us be clear about why we are doing this: reoffending rates in this country have barely changed in 10 years, and it is not true to say that we are getting the kind of performance across the probation service that the hon. Lady suggests. There is good work being done in the probation service, in the voluntary sector and in the private sector, and my aim is to have a package of proposals that brings to bear the strengths of all three in reducing reoffending rates.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Why have the Government come up with the idea that the commissioning of probation services should be done by a national body, rather than a local or regional one, given that that undermines the way in which local bodies concerned with preventing crime can work together and the ability of local and regional voluntary sector organisations to take part?

[Chris Grayling]

There are two reasons. First, we do not believe that the expertise exists on a localised basis to procure payment by results in an ambitious way—the kind we are proposing. Secondly, many probation trust management teams are enthusiastic about being part of the contracted-out world themselves, so I hope and expect that we will see some of them forming partnerships and creating new bodies that will take the service forward.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

4. When he last met the Joint Committee on Human Rights; and if he will make a statement.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

I have not met the Joint Committee on Human Rights since I became Secretary of State for Justice. I was due to attend an evidence session before the Joint Committee on the Government’s human rights policy on 18 December 2012, but the meeting was postponed and will now take place on 12 February 2013.

[Simon Hughes]

I look forward to the Secretary of State’s visit. When we were debating the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, before he took over as Secretary of State, his Department gave a commitment to review legal aid, particularly in relation to immigration and asylum, a year later. The Committee is now addressing that issue in relation to unaccompanied minors. Will he look at the evidence being given, address that issue before he comes to meet the Committee and see whether we ought not to amend the legal aid arrangements so that vulnerable people with immigration or asylum issues get the proper legal support and advice they need?

[Chris Grayling]

I am very happy to give that commitment and to look at that issue before the evidence session, and I look forward to discussing these issues with my right hon. Friend and his colleagues.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

It seems that the Government’s process on reviewing human rights legislation is, to put it kindly, somewhat slow, at a time when the practical implications are more urgent than ever, not least in relation to gay marriage, which we will debate later. Will the Secretary of State speed up the process, as everyone wants to see that?

[Chris Grayling]

As my hon. Friend knows, I feel strongly that we need to make changes to the human rights framework. Unfortunately, it is my belief that there is not a majority in this House for such changes, and it will therefore fall to a future majority Conservative Government to deliver them.

[Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the level of delay in criminal proceedings involving vulnerable witnesses.

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[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

6. What estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of appeals related to the work capability assessment.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Some 103,000 appeals against decisions related to the work capability assessment were disposed of between April and September 2012. The estimated total associated cost was £23.5 million. In the previous financial year, 189,000 appeals were made, at an estimated total cost of £45 million.

[Tom Greatrex]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. As he knows from his previous responsibilities, many of those appeals were a result of incorrect initial decisions in a work capability assessment. Given that Department for Work and Pensions figures that I have obtained show that more than 35,000 people in the support group have to repeat the WCA, including people with cancer, Parkinson’s disease, multiple sclerosis and other progressive conditions, does the Secretary of State not accept that there would be less cost to his Department and therefore to the public if we stopped reassessing people who are not going to get better?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, that is really a matter for the DWP. It is my job to provide an appeal route for those who wish to appeal, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that before I left my previous job I asked officials to change how we reassessed people who had been through an appeal so that there was a more sensible length of time between appeal and reassessment.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that it would be far more efficient throughout the entirety of government if the decisions that were made were right the first time? The work capability assessments have not delivered that since they were introduced by the previous Government. Will he talk to colleagues in the DWP to try to ensure that decision making is right first time in the interests of Government efficiency and of the people who undergo a lot of anxiety and worry as they go through the appeals process?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend will know that that was a matter of great concern to me in my previous job. None of us benefits from getting decisions wrong and a huge amount of effort has been put into getting them right. Of course, our Department must provide a route for appeals when they are necessary, but I can assure him that a huge amount of effort goes into trying to ensure that we get decisions right first time.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

7. If he will consider increasing magistrates’ sentencing powers from a maximum of six months to a maximum of 12 months for the purpose of making greater use of magistrates’ courts.

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[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

8. How he plans to ensure that the voluntary and charitable sectors play a full role in the rehabilitation of offenders.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Retaining the expertise and dynamism of the voluntary and community sector within the justice system is central to our approach. We have already announced an extra £500,000 of grant funding to support voluntary sector organisations, helping them to compete for contracts. My team and I are meeting a large number of such bodies early in this process to ensure that they are as fully on board as possible.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his reply. His recent statement on transforming rehabilitation has the potential to be hugely positive for the voluntary sector, but it is crucial that charities can compete for contracts on a level playing field. What action have the Government taken to make sure that charities are not at a disadvantage when competing for contracts on a payment by results basis?

[Chris Grayling]

I would make two points to my hon. Friend. I absolutely agree with his premise but, first, the cash-flow element of the proposals that we have introduced will not be as tough as that for the Work programme. Part of the task is to pay for the requirements of the court, so the cash-flow situation will be rather different. Secondly, I am making sure that we really engage the social investment sector, which can play an important part in ensuring that voluntary sector organisations can compete on that level playing field and win on it.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know that we privatised and contracted out hospital cleaning, and that led to MRSA. We privatised and contracted out school meals, and that led to turkey twizzlers. Why does he think that in relation to the probation service—such an important service—privatising and contracting out will lead to a better end?

[Chris Grayling]

If I am not mistaken, the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister in the previous Government who introduced the legislation that makes these changes possible. The Opposition say one thing one day and another thing the next. The truth is that reoffending rates in this country have barely changed in a decade, despite extra money being spent, and I want to bring those rates down.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

9. What plans he has for the modernisation of the prison estate.

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[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

16. What his Department’s policy is on reform of judicial review.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

As set out in our recent engagement exercise “Judicial Review: proposals for reform”, our policy is to reduce the burden on public services of ill-founded judicial review applications, while protecting access to justice and the rule of law. We are working with the judiciary to ensure that we achieve that balance.

[Mr Bain]

Has the Secretary of State not seen Liberty’s response to his consultation on judicial review, which finds no statistical or any other evidence that it impedes growth or stifles innovation? Why does the Secretary of State believe it is right to remove rights from local communities and vulnerable people in immigration cases just to find an excuse for why this economy has not grown in five of the past nine quarters?

[Chris Grayling]

The problem with judicial review is that it has mushroomed beyond any expectation. It started with a few hundred cases when it was first introduced and there are now more than 10,000 a year. Often, those judicial review processes are based on a public relations exercise or an attempt to derail the reform temporarily by using a technicality. Judicial review should be a genuine process to challenge the public authorities when they get it wrong; it should not be an excuse to fly a kite.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

17. If he will develop a feedback process to the Department for Work and Pensions on the reasons for the overturning of employment and support allowance decisions by tribunal judges.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

The provision of feedback on reasons for tribunals’ decisions is a matter for the judiciary. However, as the hon. Lady will remember, in my previous role we put in place new arrangements last year. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service is now working with the DWP to evaluate the findings so that decision making can be improved wherever we can do so.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. However, his successor as employment Minister, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), told the Work and Pensions Committee that it was important to expand the reasons given by tribunals far beyond those on the dropdown menu, so that opaque statements such as “cogent oral evidence” are not given as the reason for an appeal being upheld. Will the Secretary of State confirm that those reasons will be expanded greatly?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, the intention of the change was to identify relevant information that would improve decision making. We have learned quite a lot from the dropdown menu. The two Departments will of course discuss any improvements that will increase the quality of decision making and reduce the number of appeals.

[Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Since becoming Justice Secretary, I have embarked on a programme of delivering more for less and of boosting public confidence in the justice system. We are consulting on transforming rehabilitation and will shortly be considering reforms to youth justice.

In the past, my Department has routinely undertaken 12-week written consultations in some areas, including legal aid. I want to be clear that although the Government still want to hear the views of stakeholders and the public on many matters, they should no longer expect a 12-week consultation, even where that has been the practice in the past. Instead, in line with the new Cabinet Office principles, we will take a fresh look across all areas at whether, how and for how long we should consult, according to what is appropriate and proportionate in each case.

[Gordon Henderson]

I was going to use this opportunity to follow up on my previous question, but since I got a good answer, I will not bother.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I only wish that I had received a good answer from the Justice Secretary. He has been busy in recent weeks chasing headlines with general statements on everything from Titan prisons to spartan prisons, and from gay prisoners to smacking children. May I ask him about the specifics? I note that his junior Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), could not answer earlier, but then he did not do the media appearances. When will the first Titan prison open, where will it be and how much will it cost?

[Chris Grayling]

We are not planning to build a Titan prison. We have a very good model for prison development in Oakwood, which opened recently in the west midlands. That site has multiple blocks and first-class training facilities. To my mind, it is an excellent model for the future of the Prison Service. We are looking at a number of sites and hope to reach a decision in the next few months on the best option. I would like to open a new generation prison as quickly as possible, because it will save the taxpayer money and the facilities will be better.

[Sadiq Khan]

Four weeks ago, the Justice Secretary announced to the BBC, Sky and anyone else who would listen that he was going to open new super-mega Titan prisons in the near future and that he would undertake feasibility studies. Given his comments on Sunday, can he tell the House how many current prisoners are gay and are sharing a prison cell with another gay person?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not know how many people in prison are gay. I want to ensure that the regime in our prisons is appropriate, commands the confidence of the public and provides an appropriate environment for rehabilitation and training. We must have a prison system in which everyone can have confidence.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

T3. An increasing number of international companies are looking to the UK for its legal services. That trade creates billions of pounds for our economy. Will the Minister tell the House what plans there are further to promote British legal services abroad?

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

T4. The Teesside coroner takes almost twice as long as the national average to conclude inquests, causing further anguish to grieving families. This matter has been raised many times with the Ministry. Why on earth, given his failing and unprofessional service, is the coroner still in post? What steps will the Secretary of State take to remove him?

[Chris Grayling]

I will not give a detailed response in the Chamber but I am happy to discuss the issue with the hon. Gentleman. I take seriously any concern about the effectiveness of the judiciary—which is, of course, independent—and I also take seriously my responsibilities as Lord Chancellor. I will look into the issue.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

T8. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what steps he is taking to improve the youth detention system, and in particular to ensure that the great work done by secure children’s homes continues?

[Chris Grayling]

As I indicated earlier, I intend to bring forward shortly a consultation paper on the youth estate. Our challenge at the moment is that across the youth estate we are detaining a small number of young people at a very high cost and with an unacceptably high reoffending rate—something like 70%. I want to see whether there is a better way of doing things to reduce that reoffending rate and help turn the lives of those children around.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

T5. This morning I met Bill Waddington, chairman of the Criminal Law Solicitors Association. Despite what the Minister said in response to an earlier question, I was assured that there has been a sharp increase in cautions for serious offences, including sexual offences and violent assault. That is soft on criminals and harsh on victims. Will the Secretary of State meet me and Bill Waddington to discuss the issue?

[Chris Grayling]

I take seriously the issue of cautions being administered for serious offences. Indeed, one of the first things I did as Justice Secretary was commission work on the issue, and I am due to meet senior police officers to discuss it in the next few days. I do, however, caution the House to be careful. For example, we would all view a caution for rape as completely unacceptable, but in some cases where the victim is absolutely unwilling to give evidence it may be the only way to get something on the record about an offender. We must be careful about this issue and try to get it right.

[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

T10. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the potential to reduce reoffending by providing treatment in prisons for gambling addiction?

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

T6. Just when MPs of all parties are seeing growing demand for housing, including as a consequence of the Government’s welfare and benefit changes, eight Shelter housing advice centres are scheduled to close. Those centres are lifelines to those in housing need, often at a time of crisis in their lives. Will the Secretary of State meet me and hon. Members from all political parties who are concerned about how to support those in housing need in their constituencies?

[Chris Grayling]

We will always discuss concerns that Members of this House have about their constituencies, but Labour Members must understand that we are dealing with an unprecedented financial crisis. We inherited from them a situation in which this country was borrowing £1 for every £4 that it spent. That inevitably means tough decisions that they may not always like.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

Magistrates courts in Swindon and Wiltshire are about to make important decisions about the allocation of crime and family work. Will my right hon. Friend work with me and those on local magistrates benches to ensure that very long journeys in order to access justice do not become the norm?

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

T7. There are 500,000 victims of sexual offences but only 5,600 convictions. Why does the Secretary of State think that the number of sex offenders who are prosecuted is falling under the coalition Government?

[Chris Grayling]

We take the whole issue of sexual offences very seriously, which is why one of the coalition commitments is to expand the availability of rape crisis centres. I visited the team running one such centre in Devon last week, and I pay tribute to them for their work. The Government will do everything they can to ensure that offenders and people who commit serious sexual offences are brought to trial. Any ideas that come through our rape crisis network of ways we could do that will be listened to.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I want to refer to the Justice Secretary’s proposals to reform the probation service. I have received a communication from the police and crime commissioner for Wiltshire who expresses grave concern about the degree of consultation prior to that announcement, and about the level of involvement and discretion that the commissioners will have in providing those services locally.

[Chris Grayling]

One thing we are doing before launching our policy is consulting on the broad direction of travel. That creates an opportunity for police and crime commissioners and others with an interest to take part. We are listening.

[Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)]

T9. Most people accept that there is a need for change in the motor accident claims sector, but is the Secretary of State satisfied that new plans to raise the small claims limit from £1,000 to £5,000 will ensure that accident victims continue to find adequate independent local advice and access to justice?

[Chris Grayling]

I think the new plans will do that. Indeed, I think there is a case for saying that the small claims court limit of £5,000 is too low. I am keen for people to have access to a proper legal process, but the benefit of the small claims court is, in part, arbitration. The plans make the process simpler and cleaner for people who have been through a difficult time.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Last month in Bradford, Qamar Malik was one of the last people to be locked up on an indeterminate sentence for public protection. Malik is a dangerous, predatory paedophile who was convicted of kidnapping and sexual assaulting a six-year-old girl and of twice attempting to abduct a 12-year-old girl. Under his IPP, he will not be released until he is considered safe to be released, but under the Government’s new regime people such as Malik will be released whether or not they are safe to be released. How does that make my constituents any safer?

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

As the Minister progresses his plans for probation services, what consultations has he had with the devolved Administration? When did he last meet the Justice Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and were probation services on the agenda?

[Chris Grayling]

I last met the Northern Ireland Justice Minister about 10 days ago and am meeting him again tomorrow. No doubt probation services will be one thing we discuss.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Given the renewed threat that convicted terrorists will pose to society on release and the amount of security and intelligence resources that will have to be devoted to monitoring them, will the Minister confirm that the use of automatic early release would be entirely inappropriate for them?

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[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

How much does he owe in parking fines?

[Chris Grayling]

On behalf of the whole House, I congratulate all of those who have been involved. It is an historic occasion and an extraordinary piece of history. I hope everyone will come together for a proper service to mark the occasion, and for a formal internment in the cathedral.

[Mr Speaker]

We are not debating the question of whether Richard III incurred parking fines.

Judicial Pensions Reform

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

On 17 July 2012, my predecessor informed the House that he had written to the heads of jurisdiction setting out his proposals for reform of judicial pensions, Official Report, column 131WS.

The Government recognise that although there is a longstanding practice that the total remuneration package offered to the judiciary, including pension provision, should not be reduced for serving judges, this forms part of a broader constitutional principle that an independent judiciary must be safeguarded. However, in the particular context of difficult economic circumstances and changes to pension provision across the public sector, we do not consider that the proposed reforms infringe the broader constitutional principle of judicial independence.

Nonetheless we have listened to the concerns of the judges and we have modified our proposals.

The judicial pension scheme will be constituted under the same legislation as will apply to other public service pension schemes. But we now propose to proceed on the basis of a new, stand-alone judicial pension scheme for which the Lord Chancellor would be the responsible authority. The scheme regulations will be subject to affirmative resolution procedure. This approach will allow the judges to participate in the governance of their pension arrangements and to have a say in how their pension terms develop in future.

It is proposed that the new scheme will apply to all judges other than those within 10 years of pension age at 1 April 2012; this group (around 75% of judges at 1 April 2012) will continue in their current schemes. Other judges will move into the new scheme for service from 1 April 2015. Those appointed before 1 April 2012, and who were aged between 51½ and 55 at that date, will have the option to defer joining the new scheme until an age-related later date; this “tapering protection” is intended to avoid a cliff-edge in treatment for those who fall just outside the group with full protection. Previous service in any of the current judicial schemes will be fully protected, continuing to be pensioned under the rules of the current scheme but reflecting the individual’s salary on retirement.

In common with the approach applying to other public service pension schemes, the new scheme will be registered with HM Revenue and Customs for tax purposes. Particular concerns have been expressed about the impact on some judges of moving to a tax-registered pension scheme. We understand these concerns and propose to address them by allowing those likely to be most affected the option of a transitional protection allowance in lieu of pension accrual in the new scheme. Eligibility to apply for this allowance will be strictly limited to those serving judges who have had continuous membership of a judicial pension scheme, who have registered their prejudicial pensions for enhanced protection under the Finance Act 2004 or fixed protection under the Finance Act 2011 and who have made no contributions to a tax-registered pension after 5 April 2006 (for those with enhanced protection) or after 5 April 2012 (for those with fixed protection).

The Government will bring forward amendments to the Public Service Pensions Bill as necessary to deliver our amended proposals.

I have today written to the Lord Chief Justice, the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland and the Lord President and, via the judicial intranet, to all judges holding non-devolved office, to inform them of the Government’s revised proposals, including those in respect of transitional protection, and to provide them with further information.

The Government’s view is that the new pension arrangements will continue to provide a good way of saving for retirement and the new judicial pension scheme will remain among the most generous in the public sector.

Prison Capacity Management

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Written Statements

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Our strategy for the custodial estate is to ensure that we have sufficient places to meet the demand of the courts while securing best value for money for the taxpayer.

My intention is to have more adult male prison capacity available than we had in 2010 but at a much lower unit and overall cost. Our strategy for achieving this is to replace accommodation which is old, inefficient or has limited long-term strategic value with cheaper modern capacity which is designed to better meet the demand for prison places and supports our aim to drive down stubbornly high reoffending rates. I am also announcing today that the Government are to start feasibility work on a new prison that could hold more than 2,000 prisoners—around a quarter more than the largest current facility.

At present, we have buildings within the prison estate which date back to the 18th century. Prisons are not all located where we would want them to be to best meet the needs of the courts or support resettlement and there is an annual maintenance cost of approximately £184 million. There is clear evidence that by replacing old uneconomic places with modern prison capacity we can drive substantial savings for the taxpayer and I am determined to do just that.

Last year we opened a significant amount of new accommodation including 1,600 places at HMP Oakwood in the west midlands. The average cost at Oakwood is £13,200 per place. This is less than half the average cost of existing prison places, and sets the benchmark for future costs. In order to further drive down unit costs in prisons, I can today announce that we plan to significantly increase capacity at four existing prisons by building additional houseblocks to provide up to 1,260 new modern and cost-effective places. Our current intention is that new accommodation will be built at HMP Parc in Bridgend, HMP Peterborough in Cambridgeshire, HMP The Mount in Hertfordshire and HMP Thameside in London.

These houseblocks, along with Oakwood, which is now reaching capacity, represent over 2,800 new places. This provides the opportunity to close excess capacity elsewhere in the estate.

I am therefore announcing that we will close around 2,600 old and uneconomic places through the closure of six prisons and the partial closure of accommodation in three other sites. The affected establishments are:

Transforming Rehabilitation

Chris Grayling Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the rehabilitation of offenders.

This Government are committed to an ambitious programme of social reform, even at a time of financial constraints. Major changes have already been delivered in welfare and education to tackle the challenge of endemic welfare dependency and educational underperformance, particularly in deprived areas. In the coalition agreement, the Government also promised

“to introduce a rehabilitation revolution”

to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending, and today I am publishing a consultation paper entitled “Transforming Rehabilitation: a revolution in the way we manage offenders”. We need a tough but intelligent criminal justice system that both punishes people properly when they break the law and supports them to get their lives back on track so that they do not commit crime again in the future.

Despite significant increases in Government spending on offender management during the past decade, reoffending remains consistently and unacceptably high. In 2010, nearly half of prisoners were reconvicted within a year of release. This rate is even higher for short-sentenced prisoners, the great majority of whom currently receive little or no support.

Failing to divert offenders away from crime has a wide impact. The Ministry of Justice alone spent over £4 billion on prisons and offender management in 2011-12, and the wider cost of this failure is considerable. The National Audit Office estimated that the economic cost of reoffending by recent ex-prisoners was as much as £13 billion in 2007-08. I am clear that we cannot continue as before. In difficult economic times, delivering real reform requires a dramatically different approach. We cannot afford not to do this.

I propose to introduce a new emphasis on life management and mentoring support for offenders in order to address the problems that lead them to turn to crime time and again. For the first time, all offenders will be subject to mandatory supervision and tailored rehabilitation on their release from prison, including those serving sentences of less than 12 months. Those offenders have some of the highest reoffending rates, but there is currently no statutory provision after the halfway point of their sentences. I want to ensure that persistent offenders do not walk out of the prison gates with £46 in their pockets and little or nothing else.

My vision is very simple. When someone leaves prison, I want them already to have a mentor in place. I want them to be met at the prison gate, to have a place to live sorted out, and to have a package of support set up, be it training, drug treatment or an employability course. I also want them to have someone whom they can turn to as a wise friend as they turn their own lives around. I intend to open up the market for probation services, so that we can combine the expertise that exists in the public sector probation service with the innovation and dynamism of private and voluntary providers.

These radical reforms are underpinned by the principles of the big society. Enabling voluntary sector organisations to participate fully in the transforming of rehabilitation, harnessing their expertise, and making the most of existing local links will be vital to the delivery of the reductions in reoffending that we need to see. Providers will be commissioned to deliver community orders and licence requirements for the majority of offenders, and will be paid by results to reduce reoffending. They will be expected to tackle the causes of reoffending and help offenders to turn their lives around.

Through the introduction of payment by results, providers from all sectors will have a clear incentive to rehabilitate offenders. We will pay in full only for services that succeed in reducing reoffending. Services will be commissioned nationally, and delivered across broader geographical areas. I am committed to ensuring that the new system continues to make best use of local expertise, and to integrate itself into existing local structures. Potential providers will have to be clear about how they would sustain local partnerships in contracts, and commissioning will be informed by local intelligence.

Extending rehabilitation to more offenders will introduce new costs to the system, but I believe that they can be balanced by our drawing more providers into the system. Through increased use of competition, we can generate efficiency savings and drive down unit costs across the system, allowing our funding to go further.

The public sector probation service does an important job in protecting the public. The Government are very clear about the value and expertise that it brings, and we want to continue to use that expertise as we transform our approach to rehabilitation. There will be a continuing critical role for the public sector, which will include advising the courts and assessing the risk that an offender poses to the public. Offenders who pose the highest risk of serious harm to the public will continue to be managed directly by the public sector, and the public sector will retain ultimate responsibility for public protection.

Transforming rehabilitation will help to ensure that all who are given prison or community sentences are properly punished, while also being helped to turn their back on crime for good. That will mean lower crime rates, fewer victims and safer communities. I commend my statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), for the elements of his statement that were supportive of what we are doing, and of course I should thank the Labour party, because it is only thanks to legislation introduced by the Labour Government prior to 2010 that I am able to make such an important reform for this country. I should also pay tribute to the former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who established the Peterborough pilot. The work being done in Peterborough prison by the team involving the St Giles Trust—I met representatives from the trust this morning—and other charities working in partnership with the private sector is an impressive example of what can be done in mentoring offenders.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned pilots. The last Government were obsessed with pilots. Sometimes those in government just have to believe in something and do it, but the last Government set out a pilot timetable under which it would have taken about eight years to get from the beginning of the process to the point of evaluation and then beyond. Sometimes we just have to believe something is right and do it, and I assure Members that if they went to Peterborough to see what is being done there, they would think it was the right thing to do.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Work programme, and I wish he would stop using statistics that are certainly not entirely—[Interruption.] I am not sure how to describe them; “misleading” might be inappropriate language to use. The Opposition keep missing an important point: in the Work programme, we do not pay until someone has been in work for more than six months. So if 800,000 people joined the Work programme in the first year, half of them could not have been in work for six months. The reality is that the Work programme has so far helped 200,000 people find jobs. Many of those people have been in jobs for the short term and have then gone on to second jobs, and many of them have gone into long-term employment. The programme is making a real difference, and I defy any Member of the House to visit a Work programme centre, see the work that is being done and not come away impressed. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman mentions G4S. It is true that G4S is one of the prime contractors in the Work programme, but interestingly, it subcontracts all its work in the Work programme to voluntary sector organisations and small businesses. The Work programme is the biggest voluntary sector welfare-to-work programme that this country has ever seen, with organisations such as the Papworth Trust delivering support right across East Anglia and organisations such as the Careers Development Group involved. That charitable organisation is running large parts of the Work programme in London. Labour Members need to look at the detail of what is happening.

The right hon. Gentleman made a sensible point and asked a sensible question about the management of and fluctuation in risk. We intend the public probation service to work closely with local providers, and where there is a variation in risk—where it suddenly becomes clear that an individual represents a clear and present danger of harm to the public—the mechanisms will exist to move those people back under the public sector umbrella. So the public sector will continue to work with the most serious offenders, through the multi-agency public protection arrangements and similar, and the police will continue to work closely with the public sector on the most serious offenders. Where there is a clear and present risk to the public, it is the duty of the public probation service and of this Government—and it will continue to be so—to make sure that we supervise and manage that risk, and that intelligence is shared between the police and the public probation service to manage the risk that exists, when it does exist, because we must ensure that the public are protected.

The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of cost, and I simply offer him one example of where efficiencies can be delivered. When we contracted out the delivery of community sentences in London, the cost of delivering those sentences fell by nearly 40%. I am absolutely certain that although very good work is being and will continue to be done in the probation service, and those professionals will continue to work in this field, there are efficiencies to be found. Such efficiencies can be reinvested in providing support to those prisoners whose sentence is less than 12 months, who have never had it before.

Lastly, the right hon. Gentleman asked about the more difficult offenders. I wish to make it absolutely clear, as our consultation document does, that we will have a pricing mechanism that makes it impossible for providers simply not to support the most difficult prisoners. Every prisoner must have support. We are delivering support that is mandated by the courts for every prisoner, and that will be continued.

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

These proposals, which will greatly increase the potential for offender managers to deliver rehabilitation, should mean that probation officers will be employed by many different types of organisation. Indeed, it will be vital for the success of these reforms that probation officers at all levels of experience are found in the remaining public sector organisations and in the new delivery organisations. Will the Secretary of State therefore ensure that he strengthens the corporate identity, and the training and academic underpinning of probation as a profession, so that there is a strong base for our excellent probation officers and their profession, wherever they are deployed?

[Chris Grayling]

I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend. There is a slight myth in the media that we arrived in the Department in September and nothing had been done before, but that is totally untrue; I have inherited some very good work done by him and his colleagues, which created the foundation for these reforms. Indeed, he and I worked closely together in providing employment support to prisoners through the Work programme. It is very important that we ensure that we have the best possible professional standards. I apologise here, because the point was raised by the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). One of the questions I have for the probation profession is: should we facilitate the creation of some sort of chartered institute that raises professional standards in the profession? It will continue to be an important profession, with high-level specialist skills needed to manage the most serious risk. I am also ensuring, through these proposals, that existing probation staff have the opportunity to set up social enterprises and mutuals, so that they themselves have the opportunity to be part of the future.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with working with the private and voluntary sectors in the justice system; I did it when I was the Justice Minister. I have two questions to put to the Secretary of State, if I may. First, on resilience, how does he know that the organisations with these contracts, like G4S in the Olympics, will be able to deliver? Secondly, on accountability, things will go wrong in the justice system, cases will be disastrous and things will be serious. Who will ultimately be accountable to this House and to the public for the errors and mistakes?

[Chris Grayling]

The simple answer to the latter point is that responsibility will continue to lie with the public probation service and, ultimately, the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman and I know that in any system with a rate of reoffending there will be further crimes, whether a public, private or voluntary sector provider does the work. I want to ensure that the level of reoffending continues to go down and that we try every means at our disposal. The payment-by-results regime opens the way to innovation to ensure that we do the best possible job in ensuring that people do not reoffend.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Although I understand the Secretary of State’s enthusiasm for getting on with the job without waiting for more pilots, a decision that some of his advisers might have called courageous, may I ask him to pay particular personal attention to ensuring that charities and voluntary organisations with a track record are not crowded out by how contracts are let? Will he also consider whether he should expand the role of the chief inspector of probation so that quality control over the whole of the provision is maintained?

[Chris Grayling]

The latter point is an important one and I rather agree with my right hon. Friend on that. I look forward to having discussions with him and his Committee about it. I am also strongly supportive of the voluntary sector. It is simply not the case, even though the Opposition keep saying that it is, that the voluntary sector is not involved in the Work programme. That programme supports well over 100,000 people in the voluntary sector, using the real expertise of small and larger organisations such as the Papworth Trust and the Salvation Army. I want to see more of that in this process.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

May I ask the Secretary of State about accountability to the courts? When a medium or low-risk offender is on a programme run by a private company and fails to keep to the conditions of that order, who will make the decision to return that offender to the court? Will it be the private company, which clearly has an interest in a successful outcome to the programme, or will it be a probation officer?

[Chris Grayling]

It will be a probation officer. I expect to have in every centre a seconded or attached probation officer who will be responsible for enforcing the legal side of things. In much the same way as happens in the Work programme, where Jobcentre Plus does the sanctioning, it will be a contractual duty of providers to report a breach but it will be the job of the public probation service to decide how to respond and whether to refer it to court or do something else.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, which I welcome. Does he agree that the most effective support for former prisoners can be given by those with whom they have developed a relationship of trust—a relationship that has been developed not just over the days or weeks prior to release but over a longer period of time—and that that is particularly the case for young offenders? In light of that, will he consider how support can be given to the excellent restorative justice work done with young men by the Sycamore Tree project at Thorn Cross young offenders institution in Cheshire?

[Chris Grayling]

Absolutely. I look forward to visiting Thorn Cross at some point. I visited some years ago when, as my hon. Friend knows, I was the candidate in Warrington South. It is a very good centre and I look forward to visiting it again in the not-too-distant future. I absolutely believe that the role of such local projects is very important. I am often asked why crime is coming down. I think that one of the reasons is that all around the country real efforts are being made by the voluntary sector and the community sector to engage with young people who might otherwise re-engage with or embark on a life of crime.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and I recently had the opportunity to visit the probation service in Greater Manchester, where we saw the programme to deal with some of the most dangerous individuals—that is, people who had been convicted of terrorist offences who will be released over the next few years. The work being done to reintegrate them into the community and to de-radicalise them—very specialised work indeed—was first rate and very professional. Will the Secretary of State reassure us that in the case of such prisoners—ex-terrorist offenders—the community will be kept safe and that vital reintegration and de-radicalisation work will continue?

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely do that. I envisage no change, unless it is an improvement, to how we manage offenders such as former terrorists in the community. They would fall under the high-risk umbrella and I would expect that work to continue in the public sector, where it takes place at the moment. I pay tribute to Greater Manchester probation trust, which is among the most innovative and entrepreneurial of the probation trusts. I have little doubt that some of the people in that trust will see the opportunity to create a mutual or co-operative. In the spirit of the Labour party and the co-operative movement, this is a great opportunity for a new generation of co-operatives to emerge and I want to see staff participating in the future.

[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that it is difficult and challenging to rehabilitate hardened drug addicts? Does he share my concern that many young people are going into prison as mild drug users but coming out as addicts? Why are there still so many drugs available in our prisons and what is he doing about it?

[Chris Grayling]

That is a concern that I and the prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), share. We have done quite a bit of work on it already, but we are up against a determined effort to get drugs into prison; some of the means used to smuggle drugs into prison are quite eye-catching. We will do everything we can to reduce the availability of drugs in prisons, but when someone comes out, if they have had some form of rehabilitation in prison I want to see that continue in the community. The structure of these reforms and the through-the-gate approach will make it much more likely that we have consistent rehabilitation through prison and beyond.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The last report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, entitled, “Drugs: Breaking the Cycle”, pointed out that 35% of those coming out of prisons had a drugs problem. I support the principle of what the Secretary of State has said today, but will he be able to choose the expertise in dealing with drugs of those organisations that will help with his rehabilitation revolution? Not just any organisation can deal with drugs; those people must be experienced in helping people once they have come out of prison.

[Chris Grayling]

That is why not just any organisation with cash in the bank will be able to come in and win the contracts. I want to see expertise and understanding of how to bring in the different services that are available. They should be able to bring in the drug rehabilitation services funded by the Department of Health and deal with the local college, ensuring that prisoners are on training courses. The people who do this work must have a joined-up understanding of what needs to be done, otherwise we would not work with them.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Will he give me an assurance that those who will now be responsible for rehabilitation will give high priority to getting prisoners working while they are serving their sentences and into jobs when they have completed their sentences?

[Chris Grayling]

I intend to continue the work done by my predecessor, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe, on increasing the amount of work done in prisons. He has done good work in extending that already and it is particularly important that that work continues after prison. That was why my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I worked hard to ensure that prisoners who came out of jail entered the Work programme on day one and started to get back-to-work support straight away. I want to see an integration of support that not only delivers the life management and mentoring I have discussed today but ensures that we provide proper back-to-work support for offenders alongside that, as that is the best way of stopping them reoffending.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

During his statement, the Secretary of State said that sometimes we must believe that something will work rather than having a pilot. That same Secretary of State believes that we should drastically increase electronic tagging, despite his own impact assessment saying that that will have no impact on reoffending. Should we take the consultation seriously?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I would simply invite the right hon. Gentleman to visit his own probation trust in Wales, which is one of the trusts trialling GPS tagging. I can see real benefits in that tagging. We are considering it and we are recontracting tagging contracts at the moment. I think that GPS tagging offers a new dimension for our community justice system that will help sometimes to protect offenders and sometimes to deal with offenders who are doing things that they should not be doing.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Does the Justice Secretary agree that it is simply astonishing that there has not been rehabilitation support for the roughly 50,000 a year whose sentences are less than 12 months? They have a reoffending rate of about 60% and I congratulate him on the fact that this Government will finally address the issue, helping them back into society and reducing reoffending.

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. It is baffling that over all the years of plenty for which Labour was in power, this is something Labour never did. We have an extraordinary situation with thousands and thousands of offenders who leave prison with £46 in their pocket and nothing else, and with no support, and a huge proportion of them reoffend. I am determined to change that.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The Government talk a lot about evidence-based policy making. Will the Secretary of State tell me why we are not having pilots to see whether the reform will work?

[Chris Grayling]

I simply invite the hon. Lady to look at the work done in Peterborough and by voluntary sector organisations to mentor offenders. Sometimes when we look at something, we can say, “That is the right thing to do.” That is what we are doing.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to drug treatment. Does he share my concern that, in the past 10 years, there has been a 165% increase in methadone maintenance prescriptions in prisons but a 30% reduction in detoxification procedures? Will he commit today to making rehabilitation and recovery a key and central part of his plans?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely give that commitment. One problem has been that if prisoners who are in prison for a short time have no support after they leave, all prisons can do while they are inside is to stabilise the situation. When there is through-the-gate rehabilitation, with somebody waiting to ensure that rehab continues in the community, we have a much better chance of addressing the issues to which my hon. Friend refers.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The probation service is staffed by highly qualified, professional, extremely dedicated and hard-working people. Medium-risk cases can be complex and serious in their consequences. The public will be concerned that the same levels of qualification and professionalism should apply to supervision. Will the Secretary of State ensure that the same level of qualifications and experience will apply to probation officers in the voluntary and private sectors?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman quite understands what we are trying to achieve. We need the qualifications and experience to protect the public from harm, but in my view the former offender turned good—the former gang member gone straight—is the best way of making sure that a young person coming out of jail does not go back to the same ways. This is about getting a mix of high qualifications, of the kind we find in our public probation service, in people who have turned away from crime and who are helping those who might end up in a place where they once were.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I draw the House’s attention to my historic interest in social investment.

I welcome the opportunity for charities and social enterprises to get more involved in this area. Payment by results is very hard on working capital. Will the Secretary of State outline what his Department is doing to increase access to finance for charities and social enterprises—for example, the nascent social impact bond sector?

[Chris Grayling]

Let me start by saying that I do not expect this to be a 100% payment-by-results contract. There is a need to enforce orders of the court, so I do not expect to be able to put 100% of the fees that we pay on a payment-by-results outcome basis. However, I do want providers to be at risk; I want them to have their money on the table to deliver excellence for us, but I absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s point. That approach will make the cash flow situation less challenging than it would be in a 100% situation.

I have already held and will continue to hold meetings with people in the social investment sector to encourage them to look at the measure as a real opportunity. This is the kind of area in which social investment in this country should be involved. There is a clear public benefit and the possibility of earning a return. I absolutely hope and believe that our social investment sector will row in behind it.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State was explicit in saying that we could not afford not to do this. Can he be equally explicit about the primary focus of the consultation exercise? Is the measure about a reduction in reoffending or a reduction in expenditure?

[Chris Grayling]

This is absolutely about a reduction in reoffending. I have believed for a while that we should carry out this measure. I was particularly pleased when the Prime Minister invited me to take my current position. I absolutely believe that I should try to lead with the reform, and the Prime Minister is absolutely behind it. As the hon. Gentleman will know, in some parts of the United Kingdom, such matters are devolved; I hope that we are setting an example that others will choose to follow.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for fulfilling another manifesto promise in this rehabilitation revolution. Will we be following the great model of the National Grid young offender programme, which moves people into work? Its reoffending rates are in single digits, in contrast to the unacceptable rates nationally. Can we follow through with that model and replicate it across the country, so that we have a conveyer belt not into crime but into employment?

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to the work done not only by National Grid but many other companies in this area. I have visited the Timpson’s workshop, which involves the father of the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson). It is a first-class facility in Liverpool jail of the kind that I would like to see more of. The more that we can engage the private sector in helping offenders make the transition from prison into employment, the better. I pay tribute to all those organisations, and particularly National Grid.

[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to look at the gap between a person leaving through the prison gate and finally being picked up by the authorities, and to close that gap; it is a key vulnerability when it comes to reoffending. Will he also look downstream at creating programmes that will help social and emotional capability to be developed within prisons before people are released? As he has converted to co-operatives, will he extend the Whitehall co-operative to health and education, so that offending behaviours are addressed way earlier and potential offenders do not go to prison in the first place?

[Chris Grayling]

The latter point is important, and I give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I pay tribute to his work in establishing the Early Intervention Foundation. The way in which he works across the House is a good example of Parliament setting aside politics and coming together in the interests of the country. I assure him that we will continue to look for different ways of working.

I see social challenges as a jigsaw puzzle. We are reforming welfare and education, and we have the troubled families programme and an increased focus on early intervention. Today I am trying to put in another piece of that jigsaw. The hon. Gentleman and I know that the problems will not be solved overnight, but if we do not move things in the right direction, we will never solve them. I hope and believe that the measure is one part of doing that.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Following on from the question asked by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), we should change the attitude towards reoffending while offenders are in prison. Should we not have modern and efficient prisons rather than Victorian ones? Would it not be a good idea to reopen Wellingborough prison—a modern prison and the third cheapest in the country to run?

[Chris Grayling]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on continuing to be a first-rate advocate for his constituency. He knows that my strategy is to modernise the prison estate as fast as resources allow; it is clearly both cheaper and better if prisoners are in more modern prisons. I will have more to say about that as time goes by. We have had extensive discussions about Wellingborough prison and its site. My answer is never say never, but he will know the nature of the challenges that we face and how we are trying to address them.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

One of the busiest places in prison is the gym. I hope that the Secretary of State will look at how sports can help to reduce reoffending. Will he look at the boxing project in Doncaster prison? It teaches offenders to get involved in boxing and uses boxing coaches. Unfortunately, it has had to be stopped because of a change in the guidelines on boxing in prisons. I understand some of the problems, but the scheme is great and people get jobs at the end of the course.

[Chris Grayling]

I can give an assurance to the hon. Gentleman. I am aware of the project to which he refers. I have seen a number of projects around the country in which boxing is used as a way of engaging young people. I have no problem with that happening in our prisons. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam is writing to the hon. Gentleman to say that we are happy for the project to go ahead; our only caveat relates to violent offenders. We are happy to see the project continue as a way of engaging non-violent offenders.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I warmly congratulate the Justice Secretary on having the vision to have every offender met at the prison gates with somewhere to live and a proper package of support. There was certainly a pilot under the last Government—giving offenders £46 and little else. We have seen where that ended up.

Will the Secretary of State outline the number of offenders who have problems with alcohol? Will he reassure me that alcohol will be given the same priority as drugs as offenders leave prison?

[Chris Grayling]

About three quarters of prisoners have an addiction problem, a mental health problem or both. About half of prisoners have had some form of addiction problem. That is a real challenge, which colleagues at the Home Office are looking at closely as well. There are new mechanisms to monitor and help and support those with alcohol problems. I accept that it is a real issue, which I hope and expect mentors working with prisoners to address if they work with people with an addiction challenge.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on the consultation. As one who in a previous life spent four years as Roy Hattersley’s deputy working on our party’s policy in this area, I can say that most Governments have failed to get the issue right. However, I did learn at that time that we must pay careful attention to how many people we put in prison and what we do with people in prison—education and skills training is still absolutely pathetic. Lastly, when a prisoner comes out, he needs the full package of support—housing, education, a job and everything else. Highly skilled people are needed to help make that happen.

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree. We are doing this through a consultation document rather than simply arriving with a final blueprint—I am setting a direction of travel but I am not saying that every detail is finalised—to offer people in this House and outside an opportunity to say, “You want to do that, but if you tweak this a bit it might be better.” I hope that over the next two or three months we can look at that feedback, digest it, and help to hone the final package in a way that gives us the maximum opportunity of working with and using the expertise of people such as the hon. Gentleman who have been here and done this.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I warmly support the thrust of my right hon. Friend’s proposals, but the thorny issue is about what constitutes a successful outcome on payment by results. I have met people in the probation service who think that reducing reoffending from 10 burglaries a month to two is a success. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that that will not be considered a success and that only no reoffending will be considered a successful outcome?

[Chris Grayling]

I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that I will not be rewarding people for someone burgling a few houses rather than a lot of houses.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

The moment at which the probation service has been commended for its effective performance is an odd one for the Secretary of State to choose to put his foot on the accelerator. What is his estimate of the number of probation officers who will be made redundant, what is the anticipated cost of that, and does he have an agreed budget for it from the Treasury?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not expect this to lead to wholesale redundancies in the probation service. It certainly means a new world for many people in the probation service in being part of the new organisations, new social enterprises and new consortia that will deliver the services. Yes, of course there will be some changes, but this does not involve, suddenly and instantly, mass redundancies in the probation service—that would not be right.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Of the 50,000 prisoners on short-term sentences who are released each year, a growing proportion are EU and other foreign nationals. These people do not deserve rehabilitation; they deserve deportation. Will my right hon. Friend dig deep within the security provisions of the EU free movement directive to ensure that if any EU national commits an imprisonable offence in this country, of whatever sentence length, they are deported on release and barred from returning to this country?

[Chris Grayling]

I agree with every single word that my hon. Friend said. We have far too many foreign national prisoners in our jails. The challenge of returning them, of course, is that there has to be somebody willing to take them at the other end—I am not willing simply to release criminals on to the streets. I absolutely agree that we need to be able to return prisoners as quickly as possible. I intend to do everything I can to use the prisoner transfer agreement, which more and more countries are now ratifying, as much as possible to return offenders to other countries, and to do everything I can, with my hon. Friends in the Home Office, to make sure that they do not come back.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The practical effect of the Work programme in Wrexham is that local charitable organisations have been excluded from providing services, and some of them have closed. Will the Secretary of State impose a contractual condition that local charitable organisations should be involved in the provision of services for the new scheme?

[Chris Grayling]

It depends on what works. There are very good charities delivering excellent services for this country. There are charities that do good and noble work but are less good at the jobs they do. What matters to me is that we have the organisations that do the best job. In the Work programme we will find excellent organisations in the charitable sector doing first-rate work and excellent private organisations doing first-rate work, and I would like to have the best of both.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

I strongly welcome what the Secretary of State has said. Will he look not only at the amount of money that prisoners get on release but the monetary form in which it is given to them? I am concerned that many prisoners are given the money in cash form and go immediately to the nearest town to use it to purchase inappropriate goods such as alcohol that damage the essential stability of their first 48 hours post-release when they need to set a good pattern of behaviour.

[Chris Grayling]

Absolutely. Another problem in the system was that up until a few months ago prisoners could not even sign on for benefits for a week after release, which left a huge hole in their finances and caused a lot of reoffending. I addressed that when I was a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions. We have to make sure that the environment is right when prisoners are released. If they are met by a mentor at the gate who then sorts out their lives, showing them where they are going to live and making sure that they are signed on to benefits, I hope that their time to go down the pub will be much diminished.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Changing human behaviour is a complex business, and I have been very impressed by the work going on across agencies in the Scunthorpe area to reduce reoffending, particularly when it is related to alcohol and drugs misuse. Changing what is going on puts at risk those sorts of activities. Why is the Secretary of State allowing only six weeks for this consultation when it is so important to get it right?

[Chris Grayling]

This is an iterative process. We have a formal consultation period of six weeks. We carried out a consultation on the future of probation last year, and this is an updated consultation. We are going to carry on listening to Members across the House. It will take us a few more months to hone and finalise our final package, and we will look at what works. If the best idea comes in half an hour before we finalise it, then that is fine. I want to make sure that what we have is what works.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

While I recognise that the Secretary of State’s proposals seek to ensure that ex-prisoners make a success of their lives once they are released, I want to return to the matter of those who enter prison with a drug problem. Has he managed to call a complete halt to the practice of retoxifying prisoners prior to release when the Prison Service has taken the trouble to detoxify them at the beginning of their sentences?

[Chris Grayling]

We will do everything we can to do that. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam, is looking very hard at the whole issue of how we manage drugs in prisons and the nature of such rehabilitation. As a result of these reforms, I hope that we will end up not only dealing with the question of retoxification but identifying problems, starting rehab in prison and continuing it post-prison, and getting prisoners off drugs altogether.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Some parallels have been drawn between this plan and the Work programme. One of the problems with the Work programme is that minimal information is available from some of the private providers, and they are not subject to freedom of information requests. How will this be different?

[Chris Grayling]

I am working on reforms to FOI at the moment. We will try to be as transparent as possible. The hon. Lady has to remember, although she is not guilty of this, that over the past couple of years I have been regularly attacked by Labour Members about the use of national statistics. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot demand the information in advance and then want me to conform to national statistics rules. We will publish data as soon as we are able to do so, under the guidance of our statisticians, and we will be as transparent as possible over all this.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

In welcoming this statement, may I ask the Secretary of State to expand on one aspect of it? He said, “Services will be commissioned nationally”, but he also said that he is committed to ensuring that the new system will make the best use of local expertise. In an area such as West Mercia, where our probation service has a strong record of working with the voluntary sector, how can we ensure that the existing relationships are expanded and improved on rather than discarded and replaced?

[Chris Grayling]

One of the things I intend to write into the tender documents when the time comes is a requirement for the bidder to demonstrate that they are capable of maintaining and developing these local partnerships, which are crucial. In an area such as integrated offender management, for example, it is essential to maintain those close links. The point made in the document is that it is not practical to commission a contract of this kind on a fragmented basis. Trying to have 15, 20 or 30 small payment-by-results contracts around the country, locally commissioned, would be unbelievably complex and take an inordinate amount of time to administer, and the expertise is not really there to deliver that. We will commission nationally but the delivery will be as local as possible.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

This statement seems to be driven more by extremist right-wing ideology than by any empirical evidence, because the Secretary of State acknowledged that the public sector is best placed to deliver public safety. Is he planning to allow the police to share intelligence with G4S and other private providers?

[Chris Grayling]

I know that the Labour party is going through an identity crisis at the moment, and the hon. Gentleman may be in the wrong party, but if I am not mistaken the Peterborough pilot was started by Labour and the legislation that allows me to do this was passed by Labour, so does he support what his party did, or not?

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I welcome the extension of rehabilitation to more offenders. As my right hon. Friend rightly said, a place to live on release is vital. Will capital funding be available to assist in the development of such, sometimes specialist, housing?

[Chris Grayling]

This is an important issue that was raised with me this morning by the probation trust chairs. Of course, we provide a number of specialist accommodation blocks already. As part of the work we do over the next two or three months, we need to look at exactly how we ensure that the right vehicles are available to address accommodation needs. I want to see what I saw this morning at St Giles Trust, which has a small team of professionals who are very good at finding young people who are out of prison somewhere to live and stabilising their lives.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I want to press the Justice Secretary on something. On his watch, the Government have cancelled the probation service’s payment-by-results pilots before we have heard the evidence. Is not risk to the public increased when we do not have the results of those pilots?

[Chris Grayling]

I sat through a decade in opposition watching the previous Government so often piloting something, with nothing ever happening. The number of pilots that the Labour Government went through in office was endless. There is something in the work that is being done in Peterborough and the voluntary sector that I want to capture now, not in a decade’s time.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

In my constituency, Royal British Legion Industries is doing a great job in getting people back into employment through the Work programme. Does the Secretary of State envisage organisations such as RBLI helping, in particular, ex-service personnel who are former offenders to be rehabilitated?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely hope that RBLI will be one of the organisations that will come forward. It is an example of practical delivery of the Work programme by the voluntary sector on the ground, contrary to what we sometimes hear. There is a particular challenge in dealing with the number of ex-service people in our prisons. The more expertise we can bring to bear on that, the better.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State mentioned in passing the importance of mental health in prison and the number of prisoners who suffer from mental health problems. I am sure that he understands the need for significant support, both in prison and after, in reducing reoffending among that group. Will he confirm that counselling and other services for those with mental health problems will get the priority they need, both in prison and after, as a result of these changes?

[Chris Grayling]

The support in prisons for mental health is substantially provided by the national health service. We have to make sure that what starts in prison carries on after prison, but one of the flaws in the current system is that it does not work very well in that respect. I hope that, by creating a service that is much more through the gate and by addressing the life-management of offenders as they move through prison and afterwards, there will be continuity in the delivery of those services and that a mentor will look three months ahead and say, “Prisoner X is coming out and needs to carry on with their counselling service. I will make sure that happens.”

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that in 2010 and 2012 only 56% of those on drug treatment and testing orders completed them. Will he clarify and confirm what further steps will be taken to ensure that those who are on such orders fully complete them?

[Chris Grayling]

I intend to legislate in the near future to ensure that, when we do this, the court has the power to require people who have short sentences to go through rehabilitation programmes. It is important that we have a system whereby if someone who has a drug problem has a short sentence and is released from jail having started rehab there, that rehab will carry on and they will be required to do it. That will be the case.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

The Justice Secretary will be well aware of the special experiences and needs of women in the criminal justice system. There are already some excellent programmes supporting women offenders, such as the women matter programme in Greater Manchester. Will the Justice Secretary assure me that he will use the consultation period to reflect carefully on how a payment-by-results method will need to be adapted to meet the particular needs of women offenders?

[Chris Grayling]

I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), who has responsibility for women in prisons, and I are looking at the issue. There are different challenges for adult males, young people and women in prisons, and we need to be careful and ensure that we approach each of those groups with an appropriate understanding of the different circumstances in which they find themselves.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

The Justice Secretary has rightly said that the failure to divert people away from crime is having a wide impact and he has mentioned life management. Will he confirm that he recognises that the transformative impact that we could have includes focusing on early years work at primary school, and even before that, with professionals such as speech and language therapists and, probably even more importantly, good parenting specialists?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely accept that. That is why I said that I see meeting the social challenge we face as a jigsaw puzzle. Different pieces, whether they be intervention to work with troubled families, health visitors in the home, guidance for young lone parents or helping offenders who are long-term unemployed, are all part of a broad-ranging challenge that I believe will, as time goes by, deliver real change in our society.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

Northamptonshire has the lowest reoffending rate in the country, despite the chaotic circumstances that prevail. That is a tribute to the local probation officers in my area. They are concerned that this ideological move is being rushed through without proper thought for the circumstances and that it has not been properly tried, tested or evidenced. The real concern is that the Justice Secretary is not like a shopkeeper gambling on a new line of stock; he is dealing with public protection. What is his response to the comments of Harry Fletcher of the National Association of Probation Officers, who says that this move will compromise public protection?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not agree with Harry Fletcher. I am making sure that, when it comes to risk of harm to the public, that remains in the public sector and will continue to do so.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I pay tribute to the probation service for its work in my constituency, a very rural and sparsely populated area. What thought has the Secretary of State given to how these proposals will be carried out in such areas, which lack the presence of private sector and charitable organisations with the necessary skills to carry out rehabilitation?

[Chris Grayling]

The probation service in Wales has been one of the most innovative in doing this and has, in fact, in the past few months produced a blueprint on how this could happen in Wales, following a similar model to the one I have set out today. I fully expect to see members of the Wales probation team at the forefront of creating either mutuals or co-operatives to deliver the services. I pay tribute to the Wales probation trust, which is imaginative and innovative and has some great ideas to do precisely what my hon. Friend is talking about in difficult areas where communities in rural areas are spread out.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement. Often, small and medium-sized enterprises and voluntary providers are put off applying for Government contracts because of the complexity of the process involved. May I urge my right hon. Friend to make the application process to run probation services as straightforward as possible in order to maximise the number of applicants?

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[Chris Grayling]

I can give that assurance. One of the things that I have learned from the contracting of the Work programme is to try to make the process as simple as possible for small organisations. I am not sure that we did it as effectively as we could have then, but we will certainly do so this time.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Along with many other Members, I greatly welcome the statement. Will my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor join me in commending the governor of HMP Shrewsbury, Mr Gerry Hendry, on giving the very highest priority to finding places for prisoners on release to live and work? He has demonstrated clearly that rehabilitation works, because reoffending has fallen greatly.

[Chris Grayling]

I indeed pay tribute to the work not just there, but across the prison service. We have some first-rate professionals in the probation service who have a strong future in delivering support to offenders in our communities, whether as part of a high-quality, specialist public sector probation service or, indeed, as part of one of the new generation of organisations.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

The Labour party suggests that there is no evidence on mentoring. I spent the past 12 months studying that particular issue for my book, “Doing Time”, which, amazingly, is still available in shops. The fact of the matter is that the Labour party introduced custody plus in 2004 to 2007 on this exact issue, but it did not follow it through. It is this coalition that has the guts and determination to address the crucial bridge between prison and release.

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[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I pay tribute to him for the work he has done. There is enormous expertise in this field in the House and I hope that all Members will feel able to take part in the consultation. The Labour party introduced power after power, scheme after scheme and pilot after pilot, often for PR purposes, but seldom did anything.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

The Lord Chancellor rightly reminded us in his statement that the criminal justice system must both punish offenders and seek to rehabilitate them, but will he acknowledge that many of our constituents doubt that we have got the balance right? Will he reassure us, and is he confident, that his proposals will achieve outcomes that will increase public confidence?

[Chris Grayling]

I hope and believe so. The reality is that, whether we are the hardest hard-liner or the softest liberal on crime, we all have an interest in preventing reoffending. I understand where my hon. Friend and his constituents are coming from. That is why we have taken steps such as increasing the protection that householders receive if they meet an intruder in their home, introducing a mandatory life sentence for a second-time serious sexual or violent offender, and introducing a mandatory punishment to every community sentence. We will take further measures that will restore and rebuild the public confidence in the criminal justice system that was so lacking when we inherited it.

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the Secretary of State and other colleagues for their succinctness, which enabled 45 Back Benchers to question him in 41 minutes of exclusively Back-Bench time.