Pre-Council: EU Foreign Affairs Council
Greg Hands Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
The EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) will take place in Brussels on 10 November 2017. I will represent the UK.
The substantive items on 10 November will be: the state of play of preparations for the 11th World Trade Organisation Ministerial Conference, the state of play of the EU Trade Negotiations with Mexico, and the state of play of the EU Trade negotiations with Mercosur. Also, the Commission will present its report on the implementation of free trade agreements.
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Trade and Customs Legislation
Greg Hands Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
On 9 October 2017, the Government published two White Papers at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-vision-for-post-eu-trade-and-customs-policy.
These papers set out the Government’s approach to legislating for the UK’s future trade policy, establishing a standalone customs regime, and ensuring that VAT and excise legislation operates effectively upon EU exit.
The papers reaffirmed the Prime Minister’s commitment to maintaining and maximising the UK’s position as a global free trading nation, once it leaves the EU, both by boosting our trading relationships with old friends and new allies, and by seeking a deep and special partnership with the EU. The paper reiterated that, in assessing the options for the UK’s future customs relationship with the EU, the Government will be guided by delivers the greatest economic advantage to the UK and by three strategic objectives: ensuring UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible; avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland; and establishing an independent international trade policy.
The White Papers also confirmed the Government’s intention to bring forward a trade Bill and a customs Bill before the end of the year, to put in place the necessary legal powers and structures to ensure the UK is ready from the first day after exit. This will help to provide continuity and avoid disruption for individuals, businesses, and international trading partners.
The Trade White Paper asked for comments on three specific aspects of trade policy: transparency of trade policy; trade remedies frameworks; and the design of a future unilateral trade preferences scheme. The closing date for comments has now passed and the Government will shortly issue its response. Wider engagement on our trade policy proposals will continue.
The Government have now tabled resolutions for a customs Bill—the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill—and is today introducing the Trade Bill to Parliament.
The Trade Bill will:
Create powers to enable the UK to transition trade agreements that currently exist between the EU and other countries, and which we are party to through our EU membership;
Create the powers needed for the UK to implement the obligations created by becoming an independent member of the agreement on Government procurement, maintaining current guaranteed access for UK businesses to global procurement opportunities and offering value for money;
Establish a “Trade Remedies Authority” to conduct trade remedies investigations and to assist with international trade disputes; and
Enable HM Revenue and Customs to share data on trade so the Secretary of State for International Trade can carry out other functions currently fulfilled by the European Commission, and share data with other bodies carrying our public functions, such as the Trade Remedies Authority and World Trade Organisation.
The Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill will:
Allow the Government to create a standalone customs regime by ensuring that, among other things, the UK can charge customs duty on goods, set and vary the rates of customs duty, and suspend or relieve duty in certain circumstances;
Allow the Government to define how goods are classified to determine how much duty is due.
Allow the UK to set preferential or additional duties in certain circumstances, for example, preferential rates for developing countries (unilateral preferences) and additional duties relating to trade remedies following an independent investigation by the Trade Remedies Authority, and when authorised following trade disputes.
Allow the VAT and excise regimes to continue to function whatever the outcome of the negotiations, for example, by enabling supplies of goods and services to continue to move as freely as possible.
Combined, these two key pieces of legislation represent a significant step in creating the statutory framework and powers needed to ensure that the UK is ready for EU exit, and providing certainty and continuity for businesses and consumers alike.
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Oral Answers to Questions
Greg Hands Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
The UK has long supported the promotion of our values globally, including successfully supporting workers’ rights and environmental protections as a member of the EU, and the UK will continue to play a leading role on these as we leave the EU. We are committed to upholding the UK’s high standards; our prosperity benefits from us reinforcing these high standards, not abandoning them.
Thangam Debbonaire
I am glad that the White Paper mentions respecting the role of Parliament, but to protect workers’ rights, fair trade and environmental rules, will the Minister now guarantee to transfer to this House the rights that our elected representatives in the European Parliament have to scrutinise, debate, amend and vote on trade agreements?
Greg Hands
The Government have been absolutely clear on the importance of this House and this Parliament scrutinising trade agreements. There is an irony in the hon. Lady’s question. Only last month, she voted against the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, which would write into domestic legislation 40 years of workers’ rights and environmental protection coming from Europe. She did not want to see that transfer. She even whipped her own side to vote against the Bill. Today, she is calling for us to introduce European procedures. I think her actions speak louder than her words.
Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con)
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
As the Prime Minister set out on Monday, the Government are preparing for the UK’s future as an independent trading nation. We will maximise our opportunities globally by seeking a deep and special partnership with the EU and boosting our trade relationships around the world.
The trade White Paper establishes the principles that will guide future UK trade policy and sets out the preparatory steps we are taking, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State laid out earlier in response to Question 1.
Mr Fysh
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is Government policy to take full control of the UK’s trade policy in services regulation, to take advantage of the free trade opportunities that are open to us as we leave the EU? Does he agree that this must not be obviated by any conditions of a period of implementation for our new arrangements with the EU?
Greg Hands
The Prime Minister has made it very clear that we want a deep and comprehensive trade agreement with the EU. We in the Department for International Trade are losing no time in preparing ourselves for our own independent trade policy in terms of transitioning existing EU FTAs, in terms of the 14 trade working groups that we have set up and in terms of transitioning trade preferences for the developing world, and that includes the ability to scope out and negotiate new trade agreements once we leave.
Rehman Chishti
Will the Minister update the House on the work that the Government are doing to engage with frontier markets, and how these are being prioritised with existing established markets?
Greg Hands
May I first congratulate my hon. Friend on becoming the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Pakistan —[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]—which, I can tell him, went down extremely well on my visit to Islamabad last month. We are devoting resources to frontier and emerging markets through our economic horizons group. We are committed to transitioning the EU’s scheme of trade preferences with those markets into a UK scheme, which will bring real economic assistance to developing countries, including Pakistan.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Northern Ireland will be the only part of the United Kingdom to share a land border with an EU member state after the UK leaves the EU. What discussions has the Minister had with his counterparts in Northern Ireland regarding future trade and investment opportunities and potential issues post-Brexit?
Greg Hands
The whole Government are engaging very closely with those in authority in Northern Ireland, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and also engaging with the other side of the border. I should be meeting the Irish Trade Minister tomorrow.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Given what the Minister says, why have the Government not responded positively to the request that Singapore made 10 months ago to revive the third country training partnership, which in their words would support global Britain’s role in the Commonwealth and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations?
Greg Hands
The Government take the Commonwealth and ASEAN extremely seriously. In fact, yesterday we hosted a celebration for ASEAN’s anniversary, and we actually hosted the first Commonwealth Trade Ministers’ meeting ever, in March, here in London, and we are making extensive preparations for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting next year.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
Could my right hon. Friend advise what steps the Government are taking to ensure that when we leave the EU, businesses do not face a cliff edge for trade with countries that are beyond the EU but covered by trade agreements that the EU has?
Greg Hands
The Department for International Trade is devoting significant efforts to transitioning the EU’s existing FTAs into a UK FTA. We are doing this in consultation with the European Union. In the majority of countries—certainly all those that we have spoken to so far—third parties are in agreement with that. Just two weeks ago I was in Peru, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was in Colombia, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State met the Ecuadorian Trade Minister to talk about the transition of the EU/Andean FTA—a perfect example in this space.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Barry Gardiner
Thank you, Sir; it is always good to have you keeping me up to pace.
Recent reports suggest that Boeing provided Monarch Airlines with 45 Boeing 737 MAX jets at a cut price and that Boeing used a complex sale and leaseback deal to provide Monarch with more than £100 million in cash against a paper profit. Given the Secretary of State’s earlier commitment to trade defence remedies, why has he left it to me to write to the EU Commissioners to ask them to investigate this as a matter of potential illegal dumping and anti-competitive behaviour?
The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
I am happy to look at the precise nature of the hon. Gentleman’s allegation, but I have to say that the Government’s response on Monarch has been exemplary. We have devoted an incredible amount of resources to getting tens of thousands of stranded British subjects abroad back to this country. The process was led incredibly well by the Department for Transport, and we should be proud of the Government’s efforts in helping the victims of Monarch.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
If the EU27 do not give the two-year extension that the Prime Minister begged for in Florence, trade barriers will rise between the UK and how many other countries? Does the Department have a number?
Greg Hands
I am not sure that I fully understand the hon. Gentleman’s question. If it is helpful to him, I can say that there are 27 other countries in the European Union and the EU has more than 40 FTAs around the world. As I mentioned earlier, one of the roles of our Department is to transition those into UK-only FTAs, which should avoid any cliff edge or future trade barriers at all.
James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con)
Oral Answers to Questions
Greg Hands Excerpts(6 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
Brazil is the UK’s largest export market in Latin America and represents significant opportunities for the UK. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State attended the UK-Brazil joint economic and trade committee last December. As I saw for myself in March in Rio, São Paulo and Belo Horizonte, both Governments are committed to deepening UK-Brazil trade and investment. UK and Brazilian officials continue to work together on proposals for reducing trade barriers, for discussion at the next joint committee.
Mr Robertson
I thank the Minister for his response and congratulate him on that work. I was in Brazil last November and have had many meetings with His Excellency the Brazilian ambassador to London, and while Brazil has not been able to achieve a trade deal with the European Union, it very much looks forward to one with the UK. So can the Minister expedite such arrangements as quickly as possible?
Greg Hands
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his work with the all-party group on Brazil in the last Parliament, and he makes the good point that we do not need to have a free trade agreement to have free trade. Indeed, as I am sure he knows, the EU has no free trade agreement with the world’s largest markets such as the US, China, India and, indeed, Brazil. So there are many trade barriers that we can address without having a formal free trade agreement. This is very much our approach in Brazil, as seen by our joint committee talks and my own visit in March.
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that the barriers to trade are not simply those that would be covered in an orthodox trade deal; there is also the unfamiliarity with local customs and so on. If we are to encourage our small and medium-sized enterprises to export, what practical facilities can be given to open up markets like Brazil, potentially enormous but at present very difficult for SMEs to access?
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and welcome him back to his place; I have fond memories of working closely with him in previous Departments on trade and other issues.
There are two things to say in response to the hon. Gentleman’s question. He is right that the removal of non-tariff barriers—the grit in the system—is a key aspect of our Department’s work, and he is right to emphasise that this is about not just free trade agreements in the future, but also removing those practical barriers, which is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had those talks back in December. In terms of supporting SMEs, the GREAT.gov.uk portal is very good; there is good access to Brazilian deals that are coming up, and I urge all SMEs to go to that portal, in order to access that.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Of course, the Minister could have pointed out that a trade agreement can only take place with Mercosur, because Brazil is part of that bloc, and should an EU trade agreement be put in place with Mercosur prior to our leaving the EU, it would become one of the agreements the EU currently has with some 50 countries. How does the Secretary of State propose to carry out his manifesto commitment to replicate all of those existing agreements after Brexit, and specifically, what legislative instruments does he propose to introduce to that end in the trade Bill?
Greg Hands
A lot of these matters will form part of the trade Bill which will be introduced in this Session. What is most important is that, as we seek a smooth and orderly exit from the European Union, we seek to replicate all of those existing EU free trade agreements, to provide certainty and stability for our businesses as we go forward to enable them to access both existing and future markets.
Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con)
4. What estimate he has made of the value of the contribution of the food and drink sector to UK exports.
Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
T4. Brecon and Radnorshire is full of excellent small business owners who are looking to trade with the rest of the world, but many are concerned that the trade deals the UK is looking to make with the rest of the world will focus on big, rather than small, businesses. What assurance can my right hon. Friend give to small business owners that their voice will not be lost in negotiations?
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
My hon. Friend makes an extremely strong point. Over 99% of businesses in this country’s non-financial business economy are small and medium-sized enterprises. Last year we helped over 1,200 Welsh companies, most of which were SMEs, and we ensure that we have regular SME-focused roundtables. We meet SME representative groups and, of course, SMEs can always access our portal, GREAT.gov.uk, which gives important indicators on how to improve their exports.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
T2. The Secretary of State wants to leave the EU because he felt it was undemocratic and unaccountable, so why is he happy for the UK to trade under World Trade Organisation rules, given that the WTO is more undemocratic and more unaccountable?
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
T7. I thank the Ministers for the written answers they have given me this week on the EU-Japan free trade agreement. They were at pains to reassure me that existing animal welfare and environmental standards would be maintained, but can they give me further reassurance that we will use this as an opportunity to address with Japan the illegal timber trade and commercial whaling?
Greg Hands
We engage on these issues on an ongoing basis with Japan. I know this is very important to the hon. Lady, so may I reassure her that the Government share a lot of her concerns on protecting animal welfare in free trade agreements? The UK has one of the best scores on the world animal protection index, where we are in the top four. It is important that we maintain animal welfare standards in this country in future agreements, and I have every confidence that we will.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
T6. Ten and a half thousand UK businesses export to Canada, a quarter of a million jobs in the UK rely on trade with Canada and we are likely to be one of the biggest winners from the EU-Canada trade treaty. However, CETA—the EU-Canada comprehensive economic and trade agreement—is imperfect, so what are we going to do post-Brexit to ensure that we do even better in our trading relationship with Canada?
Greg Hands
That is a very appropriate question, in this the week of the 150th anniversary of the Canadian confederation. My hon. Friend will know only too well that the UK exported more than £7 billion-worth of goods and services to Canada in 2015. We have five offices throughout Canada. We remain strongly supportive of CETA, but of course we will look to have a future agreement with Canada at an appropriate time.
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
Secretary of State, you will be aware that there are not only particular opportunities, but some challenges for each of the devolved regions across the UK in the next few years. Can you outline what plans and intentions you have to fully integrate the interests of the devolved regions within your strategy? Will you commit to an early meeting with delegations from the devolved regions to outline your engagement moving forward?
Exiting the European Union and Global Trade
Greg Hands Excerpts(6 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
May I thank Members for what has been a very useful debate? I think that 17 Members have spoken in the first general trade debate since the formation of the Department last summer. Let us consider for a moment the significance of this new Department of State. It was 10 years ago, almost to this month, that Labour abolished the word “trade” from the name of every Government Department. One of Gordon Brown’s very first decisions was to eliminate entirely the word “trade”. The creation of this new Department shows the determination of our Prime Minister to put trade at the heart of Government. May I praise the free trade vision that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State outlined earlier today?
First, let me say a few words on today’s foreign direct investment data, showing a record-breaking number of FDI projects coming into the UK in the financial year just finished. Inward investment into the UK is estimated to have safeguarded nearly 108,000 jobs last year. Our trade officials have helped to secure more deals than ever before—up 7%—so a big thank you to all our staff around the world.
May I just remind Labour Members that the trade deficit, which they talked about at one or two points today, is down considerably since we inherited the position in 2010—down a considerable £5.6 billion? At the same time, exports to the EU have increased by 11.3%, but exports outside the European Union have increased by 34.6%, which is a very significant figure.
We had calls from the Labour Opposition for clarity from the Government—this from a party whose leader calls free trade a dogma. The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) says that Labour Members are “principled free traders”. We remember his clarity on the comprehensive economic and trade agreement. On the Monday in Committee, he supported CETA, but on the Tuesday, he called for a Commons vote on it on a deferred Division. Then on the Wednesday, he urged his party to vote down CETA, but it rebelled against him by a margin of 85 to 67. He says he is in favour of free trade but he seems to be against all free trade deals.
There is one final point that the hon. Gentleman might want to note. He talked about his hon. Friend for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland. Now, he might not have been watching on 8 June, but the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland is now on the Conservative Benches and is now my hon. Friend, not the hon. Gentleman’s.
We had some excellent maiden speeches, including a first-class maiden speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Dockerill). She spoke with limited notes, which was welcome, and paid tribute to Dame Angela Watkinson, a friend of mine and many others. My hon. Friend talked eloquently about Upminster, a place I know well as its name is on the front of every single train I take each morning on the District line. I rarely get there, but I am looking forward to visiting one day. She mentioned the sale of council homes in London and how important that still is today, and she presented a positive and uplifting vision for the future of this great country. We thank her and welcome her.
The hon. Member for Lincoln (Ms Lee) talked about her predecessors, whom I knew well, Gillian Merron and Karl MᶜCartney. She did not mention another predecessor, Dick Taverne, who of course left Labour to join the Social Democratic party. From the content of her speech, it sounded like there is little chance of that happening in her case. I congratulate her on her speech and welcome her to this place.
We heard from the new hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone)—one of the longest constituency names and the second largest constituency, too. He clearly knows it well and I am sure that his predecessor but one, the late Charles Kennedy, would have been very proud of his speech in this House today.
We heard from the new hon. Member for Midlothian (Danielle Rowley), who made an accomplished maiden speech. It is refreshing to hear Scottish accents coming back to the Labour Benches. She made some good points on welfare and I think we would all agree that people need a hand up, not a handout.
We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) and my hon. Friends the Members for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) and for Gloucester (Richard Graham). My hon. Friend the Member for Stone mentioned the Labour split on the single market. I have seen 11 Queen’s Speeches in this House, and although I have occasionally seen a Government rebellion on an Opposition amendment, I have to say that I have never seen an Opposition rebellion on an Opposition amendment—
Greg Hands
I will not take an intervention, as there is no time.
We heard an entertaining speech from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage, who praised me for my language skills—so vielen Dank. He asked in particular about countries—we have 10 working groups covering 15 countries. He talked about the timetable and the analysis of the increase of GDP, and it is impossible to tell at the moment, as it is impossible to know what will be in those agreements.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East rightly pointed out the increase in value of our exports outside the EU since he and I were first elected in 2005, rising from 48% to 56%. He is also right on the trade deficit.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester was right to say that, whether we campaigned for leave or remain, what is important is to seek the best outcome for the UK as regards success in the negotiations. I praise him for the work he does as our trade envoy in south-east Asia, as well as on the question of the importance of China.
My hon. Friends the Members for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) and for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) mentioned the importance of financial services. They are absolutely right, but here we are in a strong position. The City needs access to European customers, but European borrowers and investors also need access to the largest capital market in the European time zone, which is the City of London. That is very important to remember.
From the Opposition Benches, we have heard from the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and the hon. Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and for City of Chester (Christian Matheson). They were all good speeches.
Trade is now back at the heart of Government policy making and I hope that all Members will agree that it is back where it belongs. For the first time, the three pillars of trade, finance promotion and policy fall under one roof, allowing us to approach trade in the most co-ordinated way possible. Our three objectives are worth reiterating and their simplicity should not detract from their significance. We will promote British exports the world over, encourage both inward and outward investment and build the strongest possible trading framework for the UK post-Brexit.
Finally, this country has a great free trading future. I am optimistic about a good outcome for the Brexit negotiations and I and the whole Department are looking forward to growing trade and investment in the years to come.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Exiting the European Union and global trade.
EU Informal Foreign Affairs Council
Greg Hands Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
My noble Friend the Minister of State for Trade Policy (Lord Price) has today made the following statement.
The EU informal Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) took place in Brussels on 3 March 2017. I represented the UK at the meeting. A summary of the discussions follows.
Anti-dumping methodology
The Commission (Commissioner Malmström) presented its proposal for a new anti-dumping methodology. With a WTO ruling on China’s dispute likely by the end of the year, Malmström called for rapid agreement to avoid a legal vacuum in the EU. She recognised that the challenge was to find an approach that was both fully compliant with WTO rules while retaining effective trade defence measures.
There was broad support for the proposals as a basis for further discussion, while noting the importance of working to get the details right to ensure proportionality, simplicity, effectiveness and legal certainty. I called for the EU to promote openness against protectionist headwinds, and noted the need to respect the interests of consumers as well as producers.
Autonomous trade measures for Ukraine
The Commission urged support for its proposed extension of autonomous trade measures for Ukraine. Malmström insisted that the additional quotas would not impact EU markets but would be valuable to Ukraine while difficult economic reforms were under way.
Multilateral investment court
Malmström underlined the global interest in amending investor-state dispute arrangements in general, and in the idea of a multilateral investment court (MIC) in particular. Following extensive international outreach conducted jointly with the Canadians, the Commission expected to seek a mandate to launch formal negotiations over the next year. Malmström recalled that the MIC would not provide any new rights for investors but rather ensure a more legitimate means of resolving disputes.
Most member states supported the concept of the MIC, although many emphasised the importance—and potential difficulty—of securing a critical mass of global and cross-stakeholder endorsement.
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Commonwealth: Trade
Greg Hands Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Owen. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) on securing this debate about our current and future trading relationships with the Commonwealth, which has truly been remarkable, uplifting and enormously encouraging. It is testimony to the popularity of the debate that I counted some 26 Back Benchers in the Chamber, most of whom stayed for the duration despite the Division. That shows the strength of interest in this subject.
In an uncertain and increasingly challenging world, the Commonwealth is more important than ever. It is an enormous market, but it is more than just a market. The Commonwealth charter has prosperity at its very centre. Members are
“committed to an effective, equitable, rules-based multilateral trading system”
and
“the freest possible flow of multilateral trade”.
I will try in the limited time available to answer the many questions and points that were made, but I am happy to meet or write to Members if I miss anything. My hon. Friend made a strong and compelling speech and presented a comprehensive vision of our future trading relations with the Commonwealth. He began by referencing the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which was most appropriate here in the mother of Parliaments. We should recognise the importance of parliamentary diplomacy. Like many Members in the Chamber, I am a long-standing supporter of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. My hon. Friend mentioned a recent CPA conference. I went to the one in New Delhi in 2007, which was quite an experience, and have also participated in CPA visits to Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Sri Lanka.
My hon. Friend mentioned that we have stood shoulder to shoulder in conflict with the Commonwealth countries on our side. I am reminded whenever I go to a Commonwealth country that there are sometimes war memorials to our common endeavours in different conflicts in small and surprising places. I remember seeing a memorial in the town of Kumasi in Ghana to the important service of Ghanaian forces in the small and in many ways forgotten—it is probably not forgotten in Ghana—conflict with German-occupied Togo. That is not to mention the millions of people from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India, Pakistan and other countries who have participated on our side in conflicts.
My hon. Friend mentioned the kind offers from New Zealand and other countries to help prepare our Department for negotiating free trade agreements. We took up New Zealand’s offer, and a senior official from New Zealand was seconded to the Department. I expect that we would look favourably on further such offers, including from Australia and Canada.
My hon. Friend mentioned that trade deals can take several years. That is not necessarily the case. He mentioned the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement with Canada, which I will come back to, but the North American Free Trade Agreement, which is pretty comprehensive, took only 14 months to negotiate. That is not necessarily the model for where we go from here, but it indicates the potential spread of dates.
My hon. Friend also asked whether we should wait until 2019. I say to him clearly that we will not. We are already out there. We have working groups on trade with Australia, New Zealand and India. Notably, the Prime Minister made her first bilateral trade mission to a Commonwealth country—India. The Secretary of State and I accompanied her on that mission. We have also made ministerial visits to Australia, New Zealand, India, Singapore, Malaysia and so on. We have six Commonwealth trade envoys—one spoke in the debate and at least one other was present. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) rightly referred to the inaugural meeting of Commonwealth Trade Ministers.
The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) made important points about the importance of human rights in trade talks. The UK has always been at the forefront of ensuring that important issues such as human rights, the environment and consumer protection are at the heart of such deals.
My right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) has in many ways been the very embodiment of the Commonwealth in Her Majesty’s Government for the last four years. He and I had several interactions during that time in all kinds of roles. He is quite right about the importance of the coming meeting of Commonwealth Trade Ministers. I expect that all four trade Ministers will play a role in support of the Secretary of State. No. 10 will come to a decision about the date and location of next year’s CHOGM in due course, but I am sure other Commonwealth leaders will be consulted. After all, we want them to come, so it stands to reason that we will check that date as far as we reasonably can to ensure that we maximise their attendance.
Businesses will of course be involved. At the very centre of trade is commerce and at the very centre of commerce is business and businesses. How they will be involved at CHOGM will be a matter for ongoing engagement. The Secretary of State and I meet businesses on a regular basis.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) mentioned the importance of smaller countries. Some 80% of Commonwealth countries benefit from preferential access to the UK via the general scheme of preferences, economic partnership agreements, market access regulation and so on. That is an important part of it.
My hon. Friend also mentioned the Commonwealth immigration channel. I am keenly aware of a recent letter to the Home Secretary. I understand that a meeting with my hon. Friend the Immigration Minister is coming up for the people who wrote that letter. Immigration queues are a matter for the Home Office, with input from the Foreign Office and the Department for International Trade. We in the Department for International Trade are always interested in how we can make business travel easier so that those people we depend on for the free flow of trade between the UK and other nations are not unfairly penalised when entering the country.
The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Stuart Blair Donaldson) said that trade was good for Scotland, and I totally agree. That is exactly the point I was making earlier today in front of a Scottish Parliament Committee on the European Union. What I have to say to the Scottish National party is this: the most important market for Scottish exports is the rest of the United Kingdom. Some 64% of goods and services leaving Scotland go to the rest of the United Kingdom, compared with just 15% to the European Union. Moreover, the rate of growth in trade with the rest of the UK has been almost 10 times as fast as that with the European Union over the past nine years.
My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell), who is a trade envoy to Nigeria, made an important point about trade with Nigeria. Within that was an incredibly important point about the importance of the diasporas to trade. That is a key UK unique selling point in terms of our ability to trade with the Commonwealth, whether those are from Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the Caribbean or so on.
The hon. Member for City of Durham (Dr Blackman-Woods) mentioned the importance of higher education—trade and business is incredibly dependent on access to the best talent—and of ensuring that universities are a key part of the UK offer in attracting foreign direct investment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) talked about the importance of services. Some 80% of our economy is in services and we need to ensure that the UK is playing an active role in the Trade in Services Agreement, which we are.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) mentioned the importance of New Zealand. We have no better friend in the world when it comes to trade than New Zealand. I mentioned earlier the support it has been providing, and the recent visit of the New Zealand Trade Minister was a strong sign as well.
My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham) is another person who has taken a strong interest in the Commonwealth in recent years as head of the all-party parliamentary group for the Commonwealth. I will take back his idea of a pre-meet with Commonwealth high commissioners in advance of the trade meeting and discuss that with the Secretary of State to see whether it is practical in the time available.
I did not get a chance to address the main issues, but hopefully I have got across the importance of the Commonwealth to the Government. In the limited time I have left, I do have to say to the official Opposition that they must sort themselves out. We heard from the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) in an intervention. He has said that, if we cannot do a trade deal with Justin Trudeau-led Canada, with whom can we do one?
The incredible sight last week of the official Opposition and the nationalists on Monday deciding that they supported CETA, changing their minds on Tuesday and calling a deferred Division, and then on Wednesday voting against that very matter, was amazing to behold. I am sure that was noted widely not only in the European Union but in Canada and across the Commonwealth.
Albert Owen (in the Chair)
Order. The Minister has taken his allocated time.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).
Oral Answers to Questions
Greg Hands Excerpts(7 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
The EU-Canada comprehensive economic and trade agreement—CETA—is a good agreement for the UK. It will promote jobs and growth and benefit consumers. The UK Government are fully committed to supporting such agreements while we remain an EU member. The investment protection provisions in CETA will have no impact on UK environmental legislation. They cannot force the UK or other parties to change their laws on the environment or any on other area of public policy.
Nick Thomas-Symonds
I am grateful for that answer, but many of my constituents are worried about us maintaining our current environmental standards post-Brexit. Can the Minister guarantee that with this trade deal and, indeed, any other trade deal that the UK intends to make, our current environmental standards will not be watered down?
Greg Hands
Enshrined in CETA and many other free trade agreements is the UK’s right to regulate in these areas, and that includes key environmental protections. There is nothing, for example, in the investment court system that would force the UK to change its environmental regulations. I notice, however, that the hon. Gentleman voted against CETA yesterday, in line with the Leader of the Opposition, but he may not know that when CETA was debated in Committee on Monday, the Official Opposition were actually in favour of it.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend heard of CANZUK, and is he encouraged by it? This is the plan being proposed in the Canadian Parliament for a Canada, Australia, New Zealand and United Kingdom trade partnership after Brexit. Does he share my enthusiasm for it?
Greg Hands
I have seen this proposal, and we are very enthusiastic about the future of UK trade with Canada. I repeat that we are currently very supportive of CETA going through. We think it is very important for the UK, for the European Union and for Canada, and we will continue to campaign for it to go through, not least in the face of the new-found opposition by Her Majesty’s Opposition.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
May I point out to the Minister that in the deferred Division, a majority of Labour Members voted for the trade deal? Given that Canada is such a long-standing Commonwealth friend, ally and defence and trade partner, could he answer this basic question: in a post-Brexit world, if we cannot do a deal with Canada, who the hell can we do a deal with?
Greg Hands
I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much indeed for that question. He is right that more Labour MPs—86—voted for CETA than the 68 who voted against it, with perhaps more than 100 abstaining. This agreement has been eight years in gestation. You would have thought, Mr Speaker, that the Opposition would have got their act together by now. On the point that the right hon. Gentleman made, I quote from one of his colleagues, who said:
“If we don’t support a trade deal with liberal, Justin Trudeau-led Canada, who do we support trade deals with?”
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Post-Brexit, will CETA be transitioned into a bilateral arrangement, or will there need to be a fresh Canada-UK agreement?
Greg Hands
My hon. Friend raises an interesting point, and I think we will have to look at that when we come to it. There are a number of important aspects of CETA that we might look to replicate in a future deal, but, for the time being, while we remain a member of the EU, the UK remains strongly supportive of CETA going through.
I heard the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) say that he was the unnamed Back Bencher referred to in the “Politics Home” article. It is good to see that he is now named, and that he is supporting the Labour party’s traditional friends in Canada, the Liberal party.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)
Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
Since 23 June, the UK has continued to attract investment from global technology companies, including SoftBank’s purchase of ARM, Facebook expanding by 50% in the UK, Google pledging to invest an estimated £1 billion, Snapchat’s new global headquarters in London and more. This Department additionally promotes and showcases the UK’s leading technology capability through our overseas network, and via our recently launched digital platform, GREAT.gov.uk.
Mr Prisk
The global market for smart city technologies is now worth something in the region of $400 billion. British firms lead the way in many of the specialisations, but we could win more contracts if there were a UK approach to a complete smart city solution. I encourage Ministers to promote greater collaboration, both among businesses and between businesses and the Government.
Greg Hands
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct and I agree with everything he said on the size of the UK capability, the size of the potential market and the need for a “Team UK” approach, which I spoke about recently when I visited his smart cities all-party parliamentary group just two weeks ago. In addition, I can announce today that two UK companies—Carillion and Zaha Hadid Architects—have secured a contract worth tens of millions of pounds to build a new headquarters in Sharjah in the United Arab Emirates, with support from UK Export Finance, which shows that the UK remains very much open for business.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The No. 1 tech Brexit worry is that when we leave, it will become unlawful to send personal data from Europe to the UK unless we have achieved an adequacy declaration from the European Commission about our data privacy arrangements. Important businesses will overnight become unviable. Will that declaration be achieved in time?
Greg Hands
Fortuitously, I was in the Chamber for the earlier Question Time and heard the right hon. Gentleman ask precisely the same question of the Minister for Digital and Culture. The UK is committed to implementing the global agreement, and to ensuring that it works for the UK once we transition outside the European Union.
Mr Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
I welcome the British Business Bank announcement of £1 billion of funding. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the technology sector gets its fair share so that Britain’s leadership in the fourth industrial revolution can continue?
Greg Hands
I very much agree with my hon. Friend. I again praise his work on the fourth industrial revolution both in the House and beyond. He is a key advocate, not just in the UK but around the world, of ensuring that the UK takes advantage of its very great strengths in technology and its technological expertise.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
Figures published by the Centre for Cities show that Glasgow’s exports of goods and services to the EU were worth more than £2.5 billion in 2014. Given the importance of Scotland’s membership of the single market to the technology sector in Glasgow, will the Minister commit to considering the Scottish Government’s proposals in the “Scotland’s Place in Europe” paper to keep Scotland in the single market?
Greg Hands
I am very sympathetic to Glasgow maintaining its exports and capability in smart cities. The UK and the Department for International Trade follow a whole-UK approach, often working with key partners such as Scotland Development International. However, I would point out to the hon. Lady that Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom is more important. Some four times as much Scottish produce and capability is exported within the United Kingdom than to the European Union.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
British tech firms have been unable to go to two US trade shows, and look unlikely to be able to attend a top conference and exhibition in Singapore, owing to extensive delays by the Minister’s Department in announcing trade access partnership funding. Will he go back to the Department and confirm the funding, so that British businesses can attend trade shows and play their part in boosting our exports and economy?
Greg Hands
The Department continually reviews its products and services to ensure that it meets its customer needs and represents good value for the taxpayer. Business planning will be completed very shortly, so we will be confirming events shortly.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Ind)
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
Building on my visit to Taiwan in September, we will continue to work with the Taiwanese authorities to address market access issues and to further increase our trade in this important market. The UK and Taiwan share a strongly favourable outlook on free trade and enjoy a robust trade partnership. Bilateral trade reached £5.9 billion in 2014, up 8% compared with 2010.
Simon Danczuk
I am pleased that the Minister met the Taiwanese President in September. I hope he shares my belief that as Britain reaches out to secure more trade deals, we keep in sight our foreign policy values. Does the Minister agree that increased trade with Taiwan and the UK is a win for both our economies and our liberal democratic values?
Greg Hands
I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. The UK and Taiwan share so many commitments, including the importance of environmental protection and the importance of a free society. We also have very strong shared values of free trade, open markets and an openness to foreign investment. I had very productive talks with President Tsai in September. She is a big friend of the United Kingdom, not least because of her time as an undergraduate at the London School of Economics.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
Greg Hands
Yes. In terms of both trade with Taiwan and the Commonwealth, the Department remains extremely supportive of Members being involved. In relation to the Commonwealth Trade Ministers meeting, I very much hope the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association will be involved in those discussions.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
With trade deals in place for the likes of Bushmills whiskey and Northern Ireland pork products, will the Minister outline how he intends to use that success for other agri-food business products, such as long-life dairy supplied by Lakeland Dairies to 77 countries across the world?
Greg Hands
When I held talks with the Taiwan authorities in September, agricultural produce was very much at the centre of those talks. We talked about pork and poultry exports, and we made real progress on Scotch whisky. Taiwan is Scotch whisky’s third-largest global market and we made important progress on it being certified by Taiwan.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)
I know a lot of British businesses focus on the China market, for obvious reasons, but when I led a delegation to Taiwan in September, as chairman of the British-Taiwanese all-party group, I witnessed a vibrant economy. Does the Minister agree that if British businesses ignore Taiwan they are missing a trick?
Greg Hands
I totally agree. I think my hon. Friend and I were in Taiwan at roughly the same time back in September. I applaud the work he does for the all-party group. Taiwan has been a longstanding open market for UK goods and services, and we need to ensure that we work hard to remove the few remaining barriers. That was the purpose of the Joint Economic Trade Committee—or JETCO—talks in September. The message from this House should go out loud and clear to British businesses that Taiwan is a very good place for them to do their business.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Given that the UK currently receives two thirds of all investment into Europe from Taiwan, does my right hon. Friend see any reason why that will not continue after we leave the EU?
Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con)
Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
The Secretary of State promised that Parliament would have the opportunity to debate the important comprehensive economic and trade agreement between the EU and Canada on the Floor of the House. Unfortunately, he broke that promise and the debate was sidelined to an obscure Committee of the House earlier this week. Given that the UK will soon be responsible for negotiating its own international trade deals following Brexit, what assurances can the Minister give the House that parliamentarians will have an opportunity to scrutinise such trade deals fully in the future, and not be afforded the discourtesy we unfortunately were in relation to CETA?
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
It was not an obscure Committee; it was a two-and-a-half hour debate in Committee Room 10 following the proper procedures laid out by the House. I remind the hon. Lady that, at the end of the debate, she failed to oppose CETA, yet the Scottish National party in yesterday’s deferred Division voted en masse against it. Like the official Opposition, it changed its position on something that has been debated for eight years now within the space of merely 24 hours.
Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
When I wrote to the Secretary of State in November to ask for an investigation into his Department’s support for any British businesses engaged in corrupt practices, he replied that his Department had no power to conduct such an investigation. Last week, after the publicity surrounding Roll-Royce’s deferred prosecution, he announced precisely such an investigation. When did the powers of his Department change, when will the inquiry report back, and will he explain why he has refused to comply with the open government principles of the OECD anti-bribery convention?
Greg Hands
Rolls-Royce has made it clear that it will not tolerate improper business conduct of any sort. It continues to co-operate fully with the Serious Fraud Office, and we await the final outcome, on which it would not be proper to comment beforehand. UK Export Finance notes, and is reviewing, the statement of facts released as part of the deferred prosecution agreement with regards to Rolls-Royce, but the details of the statement are a matter for the SFO and it would not be appropriate to comment further at this stage.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Continuing the trend of exporting from the south-west, last week Gloucestershire-based SME Fluid Transfer International won a £6 million contract to supply aircraft-refuelling vehicles to Indonesian airports. The key ingredients were British manufacturing, a strong commitment to the market, and a very good local partnership. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Fluid Transfer, and will his Department work with me to produce a short video to capture the story and inspire other small and medium-sized enterprises by showing them what can be achieved?
Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)
As the Secretary of State knows, UK steel is the best in the world. What opportunities does he envisage to promote the sale of it around the world?
Greg Hands
We take an ongoing and strong interest in the steel sector. It faces difficulties at present because of the low global steel price, but we see a good future for UK steel, and the Department looks forward to taking part in a whole-of-Government approach to ensuring that it is sold abroad.
EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement
Greg Hands Excerpts(7 years, 3 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
Welcome to the Chair, Sir Edward. I believe that it is my first time serving under your chairmanship. I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the comprehensive economic and trade agreement today. I apologise for the fact that the parliamentary calendar has meant that we were unable to have this debate in the Chamber of the House of Commons, as we had hoped to. My officials, however, worked hard with business managers in the House, at a busy time for Parliament, to agree time for this debate prior to next week’s vote, on 15 February, on CETA in the European Parliament. I am pleased that we have the chance to hold this debate today, within the appropriate timetable.
The Government are clear that CETA is a good trade deal for the United Kingdom that will promote jobs and growth and help our businesses to develop and strengthen trade links with Canada, which is an important Commonwealth partner and a like-minded country on many issues. It is an important achievement, given that it is one of the most ambitious and comprehensive agreements that the EU has concluded with a major economic partner to date.
The agreement is consistent with the UK’s objectives in trade policy and with relevant wider policy goals. It is well balanced and ambitious, and will provide substantial gains for all parties on market access and rules. It will significantly improve business opportunities for UK companies in Canada by increasing our ability to access Canadian goods, services and procurement markets.
It is estimated that the deal could be worth as much as £1.3 billion per annum to the UK while we are a member of the European Union. Those benefits will be across a range of sectors. To provide a few examples, the agreement will remove all tariffs on industrial products and substantially benefit the UK’s wines and spirits industry by removing not only tariffs into Canada, but behind-the-border barriers that have limited our companies’ access in the past. It will benefit our life sciences industries, giving them greater protection for research-based pharmaceutical products.
By opening markets in that way, CETA will support jobs and growth in the UK and bring further benefits for British consumers. It has the potential to keep prices down and provide consumers with a greater choice of quality products. It is critically important that the UK continues to do all it can to support such agreements while we remain in the EU. Not only will we directly benefit from such agreements while we remain a member, but we will also benefit from the more open and prosperous trading environment that agreements such as CETA provide for the global economy. By supporting agreements such as CETA we demonstrate to the world that we remain, and will remain, the strongest global advocate for free markets and free trade. That is fundamental to the prosperity of the United Kingdom and the world economy, and is a key part of the Government’s vision for a truly global Britain.
The Government look forward to the successful passage of the CETA agreement in the European Parliament following the vote that is scheduled for 15 February, and the provisional application of the agreement in the coming months. Following the vote in the European Parliament and the start of provisional application, the Government will move towards ratifying the agreement on a timely basis, but the exact timetable is not yet decided. We will look at the parliamentary timetable and listen to the plans of other member states when deciding on a timetable for ratification in our Parliament.
It is worth clarifying that only those areas of the agreement that fall solely within EU competence will be provisionally applied. Those areas of the agreement that are within member states’ or mixed competence will not. Those areas of CETA will still require ratification by the UK and other member states before they come into effect. Those areas not being provisionally applied include a large part of the chapter on investment; the areas being provisionally applied relate only to foreign direct investment. In particular, the investment court system of arbitration referred to by the hon. Member for Swansea West is not being provisionally applied.
I know that the investment court system is one of the areas of CETA over which hon. Members have raised concerns. I look forward to discussing that further and answering any questions today. I would also like to highlight that the right of member states to regulate in their own markets is reiterated throughout the agreement. The agreement provides that member states will not have to reduce their labour and environmental standards to encourage trade and investment. Nothing in CETA prevents the UK and other member states from regulating in the pursuit of legitimate public policy objectives, such as the health of their citizens. That is in line with the Government’s clear position that protecting the NHS is of the utmost importance to the UK.
To conclude, I welcome the increased scrutiny of free trade from both Parliament and the public, and the opportunity to make the case for free trade in times of uncertainty. We will take advantage of all the opportunities available to us to ensure that Britain becomes a global leader in free trade once we leave the European Union. We will look to build on our trade and investment links with key trading partners around the world, including Canada. We are aiming to increase our ability to access markets, with a trade policy that has a global outlook, in order to ensure the prosperity of our nation in the years ahead.
The Chair
I will now take questions to the Minister, which will be brief because there will be an opportunity for debate later. I am happy to take supplementary questions.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
First, I would like the Minister to clarify a point. He said that nothing stops us protecting the NHS. Of course, he will be aware that, uniquely, CETA adopts a negative list approach. The German Government have incorporated their health service in that negative list to protect it, but the UK Government did not see fit to do the same. They reserved that for private ambulance services, but not for the NHS. Will the Minister explain why that was the case?
Greg Hands
The Government have always been clear that protecting our NHS is of the utmost importance. It is important to understand that nothing in CETA prevents the UK, or other member states, including Germany, from regulating in pursuit of legitimate public policy objectives such as those relating to the NHS. CETA will not force or incite Governments to privatise or deregulate public services, and nothing in CETA will prevent any Government from reversing any decision to privatise in those sectors. Moreover, the joint interpretative instrument that was agreed by the European Union—by the Commission—and Canada in October affirms
“the right of governments, at all levels, to provide and support the provision of services that they consider public services including in areas such as public health and education, social services and housing and the collection, purification and distribution of water.”
Barry Gardiner
The Minister will know that although the joint interpretative instrument has legal force, it does not supersede the agreement. He talked about taking back into public ownership any aspect that had been privatised; will he explain further how the ratchet mechanism works? That seems to be in place precisely to stop any country doing exactly what he has just said.
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the follow-up question, but he has no need for concern in this space. The October joint interpretative instrument is a clarification of what was already in the agreement, which is clear: the NHS will be protected by our right to regulate. Other member states have those same rights.
Barry Gardiner
Many, Sir Edward. Further to my question on the NHS, will the Minister explain why the German Government and other Governments saw fit to protect their health services in their entirety, while the British Government felt the need to protect private ambulance services by listing them in the annexe, but not the health service as a whole? That is the key question. What was the rationale for that? If he believes that health services are protected under the generality of the agreement, why did he bother specifying private ambulance services?
Greg Hands
The simple answer is that it was not necessary to put that in the JII. For the benefit of the Opposition—I know there is a lot of public interest in this—I will repeat the six points to make about protections taken with regard to the NHS in CETA. First, as I have said, simply nothing in CETA would require the UK to privatise public services. Secondly, CETA contains a reservation allowing EU member states to impose a public monopoly on services considered, at national or local level, to be public utilities, including in the health sector, so even if public services are contracted out or privatised, the Government would remain able to impose a public monopoly.
Thirdly, Government procurement decisions relating to sensitive public services such as the health service are excluded from the scope of CETA. Fourthly, CETA contains EU-wide reservations specifically designed to protect particularly sensitive public services, such as health and education, ensuring that the Government may act as they consider appropriate in relation to such services when they receive public funding. Fifthly, in particular areas, the UK has taken a number of UK-specific reservations that go beyond those applying to other member states. For example, as the hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out, the UK retains the right to take any measures that it sees fit concerning privately funded ambulances, because that right is not explicitly stated in the rest of the agreement—they are not a public utility.
Sixthly, CETA contains general exceptions that allow parties to take measures necessary to protect certain key public interests, including public health. Those are the six key protections. There is a specific reservation for services considered as public utilities that overrides the ratchet mechanism. Other reservations are also relevant in this space.
Barry Gardiner
I have to say that I am not satisfied with the Minister’s explanation, and nor indeed with what he said about the ratchet mechanism. I trust that we will have a chance to debate those issues. Will he provide more information on how the Government intend to transition CETA to apply to the UK once we have left the EU? He was right that the mixed investment part of the agreement would not apply in the provisional application, but he did not explain what transitional arrangements he is looking at to apply the agreement in the UK after we have left the EU.
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question, which allows us the opportunity to explore the matter. However, we do have to bear in mind that, with regard to what transitioning might be done, that is looking fairly far into the future. We are looking to maintain existing commitments, which I think would necessarily be less complex than starting from scratch, in places where such commitments are appropriate. We will seek to achieve continuity in our trade and investment relationships with third countries, including those covered by EU free trade agreements and other preferential arrangements.
Barry Gardiner
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he accept that because CETA was negotiated as an EU-Canada agreement, there will be areas in which what would be most beneficial to the UK has been sacrificed for the benefit of the rest of the EU, because that was the basis of the negotiation? Therefore, given that we will shortly be coming out of the EU, would it not actually be better for us to have a separate bilateral treaty? No doubt CETA could provide the basis of much of what would be contained in that. To sign ourselves up now to elements negotiated to our detriment and for the betterment of other countries in Europe would seem rather comical.
Greg Hands
Inevitably, a future UK-Canada free trade agreement or similar things would balance taking what is already there or agreed between Canada and the European Union and seeking to do something specific to the UK. Clearly at some point in the future there will be a balance to strike between continuity and seeking advantages for the UK compared to the previous agreement. However, that is a discussion for the future. The Government are strongly supportive of CETA, and at the moment we are looking to get it through the European Parliament for it to have its provisional application. The UK remains strongly supportive of CETA going through, as part of our message overall that the UK is a strong supporter of global free trade. The Prime Minister herself has said that the UK will be the most passionate, compelling and convincing advocate of global free trade, and we see CETA as part of that key agenda.
Barry Gardiner
Of course, Sir Edward. To pick up on what the Minister has said, I think he accepts the basic premise that CETA was an EU-negotiated treaty and therefore some aspects of it will have been negotiated for other countries’ benefit and to our detriment. He then said that we are firm supporters of free trade—I totally agree with him that we want fair and open trade, because that is to all our benefit—but he has failed to articulate how we will be in a position to renegotiate the basis of the agreement we will have entered into under the European Union. The ratchet mechanism will still apply. He seems to think that once we have left the European Union we will be able simply to renegotiate the treaties we had, but that would be to an investor’s detriment; it would be to the detriment of Canada, which had already negotiated a better deal with us when we were part of the EU. It is very unlikely that it would concede to that. Indeed, the ratchet mechanism is there precisely to stop that.
Greg Hands
I simply do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s premise that the UK sacrificed some key interests on the altar of getting an EU-wide common position before going into these complex and intricate negotiations. The important thing is that CETA would no longer apply after we leave. Having negotiated at an EU level can form a basis but there is nothing to stop us negotiating our own deal thereafter.
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. A number of the points I was going to make have already been made and, breaking with tradition, I will not repeat them. However, the Minister said that this is a good trade deal. I would like to know what the implication is especially for the UK and an EU free trade deal post-Brexit. We will be looking for own free trade deal, so will this be used as a model?
Greg Hands
I thank my hon. Friend for asking that very good question. The answer is yes, of course there will be some benefits in looking at the deal and its benefits once we are outside the EU. We remain strongly supportive of the deal. It is UK Government policy to support CETA going through, so of course we welcome it. We would of course look at that as the basis for a future deal. Notwithstanding that, it does not prevent us from having the flexibility also to look at the deal afresh.
Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I am grateful to the Minister for his opening remarks. In October the Secretary of State for International Trade apologised to the Committee as there had been no debate before the decision was made in the Council in relation to this agreement, and he promised that time would be made. We then had another apology from the Secretary of State to the International Trade Committee last week, again proffering excuses in relation to timetables.
There is no doubt that this matter should be debated on the Floor of the House. It is not good enough for a deal of such a nature to be debated in this manner. I simply do not buy the excuse of timetabling. I have sat through business questions week after week, and we have had discussions about business collapsing because there has not been enough business going on. It is not good enough to use timetabling as an excuse for this matter not to be debated as it should be.
I say that not just for our benefit. Scotland is, of course, a trading nation and there are many businesses in Scotland that have welcomed this agreement. That does not mean that it should not be scrutinised. In the light of what I call the brief Brexit White Paper, which refers to CETA, we are now looking at a different relationship. The Government will be negotiating trade deals in their own right. It does not bode well if the Government intend to proceed by doing it on their own, without seeking authority, approval and discussion. Hon. Members will have something positive to offer that might be quite instructive in negotiations. It does not bode well if this is the way the Government are to proceed. I ask the Minister to reconsider an opportunity for this matter to be debated on the Floor of the House, because that is the respect the House deserves.
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. We warmly welcome parliamentary scrutiny of trade and of this agreement. Those points were made by the Secretary of State when he appeared at some length before the European Scrutiny Committee in October. To go back to the history, the European Scrutiny Committee referred the documents on 7 September, before the European Council meeting on 18 October, with barely two parliamentary sitting weeks in which to get that debate in place. It was not possible. The Committee decided to release the scrutiny override on the signature of the agreement but not on the provisional acceptance and not on the conclusion of the agreement.
When it came to the European Council meeting, of course all three decisions were taken together as a package, so it was not possible for us to, as it were, sign up to the signature of the agreement; it was “take it or leave it” on all three parts. It was decided that it was strongly in the UK national interest for us to agree to it, rather than follow the route that was ultimately taken by Belgium, among others—although it also signed up.
The Secretary of State appeared before the European Scrutiny Committee on 26 October at a stand-alone hearing, at which the hon. Member for Swansea West was definitely present, to give extensive evidence on the reasons for what happened. We have all worked very hard with business managers, and I am sure that you, Sir Edward, will have noticed other things that have come along to take charge of aspects of the parliamentary business calendar, such as the two days last week taken by the debate on article 50, or the important three-day debate under way downstairs at this moment on the EU (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill.
The Secretary of State has at all points set out his strong preference for a debate on the Floor of the House, and we would of course prefer that and welcome the scrutiny. However, it has simply not been possible, given the limited number of days in the parliamentary calendar, for us to do that. I am confident that the right thing is for us to debate the issue in Committee, giving Parliament the chance to scrutinise the agreement in advance of the European Parliament debate during the parliamentary recess on 15 February.
Ms Ahmed-Sheikh
I am sure that the Minister agrees that it is reasonable for us to expect the Secretary of State to have a handle on the business to come before Parliament over a period of time. That was promised on two separate occasions. Does the Minister agree that at the very least we should be able to rely on Secretaries of State to keep their promises to the House?
Greg Hands
As I have already explained, and as you will know, Sir Edward, I was deputy Chief Whip for some time.
Greg Hands
You will certainly know that there is pressure on the parliamentary business calendar, Sir Edward. A certain number of days are given over for Opposition day debates. Both Opposition parties have had numerous occasions on Opposition days—17 since last summer, I think—to choose the treaty as a topic. You will know, Sir Edward, about the pressure on the parliamentary calendar in unforeseen circumstances, such as the judgment of the Supreme Court.
The Chair
Order. I do not know why the Minister constantly has to pray in aid the Chair. Get on with your own arguments. Is that it?
Geraint Davies
I want to press the Minister on this point: there have been two Back-Bench business debates—one in November and one the previous November. There was a consensus on a vote in both debates that the international trade agreements—the transatlantic trade and investment partnership and CETA—should be scrutinised across Parliament in full parliamentary debates. With respect to the timetabling of the present matter, there have been three and a half months since the provisional agreement of CETA. There was a prior opportunity for the Government to call a debate. They could have done so in the knowledge that the Council of Foreign Ministers was going to sign. The Government could have timetabled it.
Instead, the Secretary of State was dragged kicking into the European Scrutiny Committee by the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), who demanded answers. At that point the Secretary of State said he would ensure that there was a full debate in Parliament, which he has not done. Now the issue has been hidden under the cloud of Brexit, so the media and others will take no notice of something that, if ICS goes forward, is a threat to our democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Will he answer the timetabling point again, and when he does will he also say whether he supports the ICS in principle?
Greg Hands
As I have already said, the ICS is not part of the provisional application.
Greg Hands
Let me deal with the hon. Gentleman’s point about the two Back-Bench business debates. As I understand it, they were not actually about CETA at all; they were about TTIP, which is not the agreement we are considering today. The European Parliament has pushed back its own debate on CETA to 15 February, which is significantly later than when it originally intended to debate and vote on this agreement. We are ensuring that our debate in the House of Commons takes place in advance of the European Parliament’s debate. That is the right thing to do, and I am confident that Members will back the decision today to go ahead with the provisional application of this agreement.
Geraint Davies
On a point of information, the debates were about international trade agreements and embraced TTIP and CETA. May I press the Minister on whether he agrees with ICS? He stated that it would not be applied, but does that not depend on how the Singapore agreement goes? He said that labour and environmental standards would not be reduced, but could they be increased, in particular with the advent of ICS? ICS would empower transnational companies, through arbitration courts, to sue the Government if they introduced new laws such as a tax on sugar to protect public health, or constraints on the effect that fracking could have on water quality, due to the extra cost or lost benefits resulting from those laws? According to him, the ICS provisions will not be ratified yet, but does he agree with ICS in principle?
Greg Hands
Let me try to take each of those two points. The UK has had its reservations about ICS, but importantly, that is part of the negotiation. We want and expect to see the details of ICS thrashed out in the coming months. The Commission and the Council have pledged to keep talking, and we are not alone in having reservations about ICS. We believe it is important to have investor protection in these agreements.
As for any decision to increase regulation, that comes back to nation states having the right to regulate. A right to regulate means an ability to decrease or increase regulation in accordance with whatever a Government and Parliament think is an appropriate course of action.
Geraint Davies
On saying that we will sign up to CETA and then do our own thing after Brexit, is the Minister aware that when CETA is fully signed, it will tie us into the agreement for 20 years and bind future Governments? We cannot just jump up and say, “We will have another agreement”, quite apart from the fact that it will be a worse agreement, because we have less negotiating power than the EU. Will he confirm that this is a 20-year agreement, and that he can give no firm undertaking that we can exit it?
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I will say two things. First, it does not stand to reason at all that the UK standing alone would negotiate a worse agreement than the European Union; he makes a massive set of assumptions there. Secondly, the 20-year provision relates only to investments made while CETA is in force in the UK, which there may or may not be, and while the UK is still party to CETA.
Geraint Davies
If we sign up to CETA and existing investors’ rights continue for 20 years, a fracking company that comes from the United States via a Canadian subsidiary could be subject to the capital tax concessions of 75% now in place for frackers, and to loose planning restrictions that meant that frackers could frack under your house, Sir Edward. Does the Minister agree that if a future Government decided that the planning constraints and tax concessions were too lenient, and wanted to focus on renewables, in line with the Paris agreement, the frackers could sue the Government, within a 20-year timeframe, for lost profit under ICS?
Greg Hands
That is an extremely hypothetical case. Let me be absolutely clear: CETA will no longer apply to the UK if it has been only provisionally applied. Only once CETA has been ratified by all EU member states and Canada can it be brought into force. Investments made during provisional application will not benefit from that sunset clause. The hon. Gentleman’s case is very unlikely to happen.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
May I first ask the Minister to clarify two points on the documents? Will he make it crystal clear that there is nothing in them that will cause any risk of our losing our publicly owned NHS?
Greg Hands
I am confident. The Government take the NHS extremely seriously. We believe ourselves to be the party of the NHS, and the protections for the NHS are absolutely clear. Those were made clear not just by ourselves but by the Canadians and by Cecilia Malmström, the EU’s Trade Commissioner. To be fair, she said this in relation to TTIP rather than CETA, but she made it plain that the protections for the NHS in that agreement would be clear. I am confident that the NHS will remain protected.
Peter Grant
The Minister niftily changed an absolute assurance to “confidence”. This may depend on how much confidence we have in the Government. My second point has not yet been raised: will the Minister tell us in how many instances the UK Government have asked for Scottish produce to be given the protection of geographical status? I think “protected names” is the terminology used in CETA. Those are massively important to a lot of producers in Scotland and elsewhere. How many of those names were put forward by the UK Government for inclusion under CETA?
Greg Hands
Let me come back on that specific point, but I will mention the importance of CETA to a lot of Scottish industries. There will be a big benefit, for example, for the Scotch whisky industry in Scotland, which as we know is hugely important for the UK as a whole; it will be able to be sold in Canada with no tariffs. That will be very important progress. That is just one industry; a host of other industries across the UK, including Scotland, will benefit from this agreement.
Peter Grant
I am being advised from a sedentary position that Scotch whisky should thank the UK Government; I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should thank Scotland for the bonus to his coffers, but that might be a discussion for another time. I want to pick up on the question asked earlier. A lot of people will find it difficult to understand why the Government are telling us that as soon as we are out of the EU, there will be a queue of major economic powers battering at the door to sign better trade deals than we could ever get under the EU, while at the same time Ministers have had to override waiver after waiver of scrutiny to get this deal signed as quickly as possible. Does the Minister understand that, if this deal is better than we could get after Brexit, it raises big questions about what kind of deal we can get from anybody else after Brexit?
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. I come back to his earlier question on UK foodstuffs to be added to the list for protected geographical indicators. The Government consulted relevant trade associations when CETA was being negotiated in 2011. At that time, no protected product was being exported to Canada in large enough quantities to be included on the proposed list of protected geographical indicators. However, CETA provides a mechanism for products to be added to the list of protected products. The Government recognise the benefits from protecting the best of our traditional and geographical food products, and will continue to work with producers to ensure appropriate protections are in place, now and in the future.
To respond to the hon. Gentleman’s question about better trading arrangements, we will have to wait and see. Article 50 has not even been triggered yet; we are still members of the EU. It is not possible for us to sign future free trade agreements while we are still a member of the EU. We are confident that the UK will be in a good position to negotiate future free trade agreements, but let us not jump the gun, and let us consider today what useful work the UK can do, in supporting agreements such as CETA, to show the importance that the UK attaches to the global free trade agenda.
Peter Grant
After its meeting on 12 October, the European Scrutiny Committee, of which I was a member at the time, agreed to a conditional waiver on the first part of the process, which is signing the treaty, but explicitly withheld consent for the other two parts. I want to ask first about the conditional waiver. One of the conditions was that the promised—not asked for, but promised—debate on the Floor on the House would be scheduled urgently. Does the Minister accept that this debate does not comply with that condition, and that even after we finish our deliberations this evening, the Government will still be in breach of the conditions of the scrutiny waiver?
Greg Hands
I have explained at some length the process that has got us from September to today. I am satisfied that the Secretary of State and the Department have put in considerable effort to enable us to have this debate today, in advance of the European Parliament debate, which is next week, during our parliamentary recess. This is a great opportunity—we have two and a half hours scheduled for today’s debate—to give the agreement proper scrutiny. I am satisfied that we have done what is in our power to make sure that is the case. I look forward to the debate.
The Chair
That is quite a long question. Shall we stop it there and let the Minister reply?
Greg Hands
I really do feel that I have already answered these questions. The hon. Member for Glenrothes, or perhaps the hon. Member for Swansea West, said that the Secretary of State was dragged before the European Scrutiny Committee. May I say that my right hon. Friend appeared just six days after the signing of the agreement, and could hardly have been quicker? That happened very quickly after scrutiny had to be overridden for the reasons that I explained: at the European Council, it would have been damaging for the UK to have appeared to obstruct CETA. That would have damaged our relations with the Commission and the EU member states, and greatly damaged our relations with Canada, one of our most important partners in the world, not just for trade but on security and other matters.
My right hon. Friend spoke to the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee on a number of occasions at that time, to explain what he was doing. He made a considerable effort to make sure that the Committee was brought into that decision process. We have today’s debate, and it might be time now, Sir Edward, to move to consider the substance of the debate, rather than these process arguments. After all, we are having the debate in advance of the European Parliament debate on 15 February.
Barry Gardiner
I do want to address all the issues of substance. The joint interpretive instrument was prayed in aid by the Minister but, of course, that says that the right to regulate applies only to procurement conditions that do not represent unnecessary barriers to trade.
Does the Minister consider that that is a proper restriction of the right to regulate, given that the trade dispute panels, as he well knows, have interpreted that word “necessity”—the necessity test—very narrowly in the past? Therefore, to pray it in aid as showing there will be no restriction is fine-tuning the interpretation in a way that experience would belie.
Greg Hands
I repeat that the JII is there to help as an addition to the agreement. It is agreed as an extra rider, as it were, to that agreement. The agreement itself provides for the right to regulate for parties and national Governments, including for the environment, public health, public ownership and all those other important issues. I think that, in his fears about the JII, the hon. Gentleman is chasing after something that does not exist.
Greg Hands
I have already talked about some of the concerns that the UK has had over some time in relation to the ICS. For example, some things still need clarification, such as how the arbiters are chosen, the cost of the ICS, the appointments and all of those kinds of things. Those will be matters for the future for the ICS. I repeat that the ICS is not a part of what is being provisionally applied; that is, what is in front of us today.
Barry Gardiner
Would the ICS not operate with general exceptions, rather than with country-specific reservation?
Geraint Davies
The Minister said his reservations about the ICS were about costs and choosing arbitrators and so on. He did not suggest that there was anything intrinsically wrong with the ICS. Does he agree with me that it is intrinsically unnecessary because investors are protected in Britain and Europe by three tiers of law: national, European law and the European Court of Human Rights? Similarly and in parallel in Canada, investors are protected by provincial courts, appeal courts and the Canadian Supreme Court.
Those established systems of public and contract law have protected trade between Canada and the EU in the past. The problem with the arbitration courts is that they are unnecessary, apart from the fact that they may be inherently dangerous to our democracy.
Greg Hands
Let me repeat that the ICS has not been provisionally applied. I know that I keep having to say that but it is an important point in relation to today’s debate. CETA confirms the right of state parties to regulate in the public interest. Non-discriminatory action by states should not give rise to a successful investor claim in the first place. A lot of the hon. Gentleman’s fears are not well grounded.
Tribunals can only award compensation to investors in the event of a breach of the agreement being proven. The ICS cannot force a state to amend or remove legislation. With this kind of thing, in a general sense it is important for there to be investor protection in trade agreements. How precisely that is done will be a matter for debate later. I will repeat that it is not part of what is being provisionally applied in this agreement.
Geraint Davies
With respect, the Minister has just said that arbitration courts cannot overturn legislation. What about the case of Ethyl v. Canada, which overturned a law to protect public health? What about the case of Metalclad v. Mexico? The authorities’ attempt to stop planning permission for a landfill that was polluting an entire town was overturned by an arbitration panel. The list goes on: the case of Cargill v. Mexico overturns a soft drinks tax of the sort that the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) was trying to introduce here. There are consistent international examples of arbitration courts overturning publicly agreed, democratically agreed laws. What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is not true.
Greg Hands
I am not aware of the specific cases the hon. Gentleman cites. I do not believe that we in the UK have been forced to change our regulation or our legal system as the result of an arbitration. The ICS cannot require us to change our laws; it is only a compensatory mechanism. Finally, I repeat that that is not what is provisionally applied under the CETA agreement.
Geraint Davies
Changing the subject, during the European Scrutiny Committee hearing the Minister and the Secretary of State said that the driving force behind signing up was our desire not to damage our relations with the EU and Canada, rather than the detail of whether the agreements might have a negative impact on our industries and, more important, our rights to decide. On the Minister’s final point, the issue here is that fining countries that pass laws to protect their citizens, public health, the environment or rights at work is intimidatory—it is the fine, the pressure, the cost. The ICS does not come in and literally write legislation. It says, “If the Government introduce a fizzy drinks tax, we will penalise you, so don’t. Let people have diabetes and die early.”
Greg Hands
It would have to be proved that that is a discriminatory action against a particular company, which I am not clear would be the case in the example the hon. Gentleman gives.
Let me return to the point about not wishing to damage relations with Canada. May I ask the hon. Gentleman—
Greg Hands
That is a fair point, Sir Edward. Let me instead ask members of the Committee to consider what the situation would have been on 18 October had it been not the Walloons who said no to the provisional agreement, but the UK. Bear in mind that the Government’s position is that we want this country to be at the global forefront of promoting free trade. Had it been the UK, which had been party to the negotiations for many years, that said no on 18 October—no to Canada, no to the Commission, no to Cecilia Malmström—it would have been catastrophic for our international relations and our trading relations. The Government’s position was and remains that this is a good agreement. Even though we are leaving the European Union, I cannot stress enough how important it is for us that CETA is passed and comes into effect.
I happened to note that earlier in the week the Opposition tabled a different amendment, one that was opposed to CETA—the actual content of CETA—rather than the procedural aspects and the lack of time, which the amendment before us today deals with. I ask all members of the Committee to consider whether we are believers in global free trade and want to have a good free trade agreement with Canada. I strongly believe it is in our country’s interests to do so, and I have yet to hear that from the official Opposition.
Greg Hands
The answer is this, Sir Edward. Starting “Line 10, leave out from “part;” to end and insert”, this amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Swansea West continues: “regrets the signature and the provisional application in the coming months of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement; is of the opinion that the provisions regarding the Investment Court System are potentially harmful as they have the potential to empower corporate trade interests to the detriment of public bodies protecting the environment, food safety, public health and social rights”. This amendment expresses regret about the signature and the provisional application, even though the hon. Gentleman was a member of the European Scrutiny Committee that, at its meeting in September, agreed that the treaty should be signed.
Geraint Davies
Okay, then I will go on and ask a question. I will take up the matter with the House authorities. It is disgraceful.
The previous draft amendment, which the Minister read out, expressed concern about the implementation of the investment court system. There is enormous concern about this across Europe, which is why it has been taken out of the agreement and put to one side. Such expressions have been made across the Council of Europe, representing 830 million people, which passed a legal affairs resolution only the week before last stating that the ICS should at least be amended to be in accordance with the European Court of Human Rights, that there should be a one-year opt-out, and that fines should be strictly limited to actual damages. There is nothing anti-CETA about that amendment. It says that there are concerns, so there should be a debate. It is outrageous that the Minister got hold of that somehow—perhaps he can tell us who leaked it?
Greg Hands
Sir Edward, as I understand it, amendments can be tabled in the Public Bill Office and withdrawn, which is what I understand the status of the amendment I read out to have been. It was tabled, and it is perfectly possible for people to go in and see what amendments have been tabled. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman says, the amendment does express regret about the signature and the provisional application. I think the onus is on the official Opposition to work out what their position is on CETA. Are they in favour of CETA or against it?
Peter Grant
May I refer the Minister to the resolution of the House of 17 November 1998, which prohibits Ministers from giving agreement to decisions in the European Council while they are still under scrutiny, and in particular to the paragraph that allows a Minister to take that action in certain circumstances? In the case of a proposal that is awaiting consideration by the House, the Minister is required to
“explain his reasons…to the House”—
not to the Scrutiny Committee but to the House—
“at the first opportunity after giving agreement.”
Agreement was given on 18 October. On what date was the statement to the House made?
Greg Hands
I am not sure that I fully followed that, but on why the UK overrode scrutiny at the European Council on 18 October, the Secretary of State wrote to the Committee to outline what he intended to do, given the fact that the three motions were to be taken as a package. He then appeared before the Select Committee as soon as possible—really as soon as possible—after that European Council, in this case on 26 October. The European Council that took place on 18 October ultimately led to the signing on 20 October. You will recall, Sir Edward, the delay caused by the Walloons seeking further clarification.
As for the provisions of the 1998 resolution, it is not entirely clear to me whether that refers to the House as whole or to the European Scrutiny Committee, which acts on behalf of the House in these matters. I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman setting out some clarification. I was not a Member of the House in 1998, but I am happy to write to him to outline the impact of that measure on our interactions since it was passed.
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. If it is all right with him, I will write to him in some detail in response to those detailed questions about whether a risk assessment has been undertaken or not.
The Chair
That is the end of the time for questions. We will now proceed to the debate on the motion. I must inform the Committee that I have selected the amendment in the name of Geraint Davies.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 10968/16 and Addenda 1to 16, a Proposal for a Council Decision on the signing of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) between Canada of the one part, and the European Union and its Member States, of the other part; further takes note of European Union Document No. 10969/16 and Addenda 1 to 16, a Proposal for a Council Decision on the provisional application of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Canada of the one part, and the European Union and its Member States, of the other part; further takes note of European Union Document No. 10970/16 and Addenda 1 to 16, a Proposal for a Council Decision on the conclusion of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Canada of the one part, and the European Union and its Member States, of the other part; welcomes the signature of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement in October 2016; looks forward to provisional application in the coming months; and notes that this is a mixed agreement which must be laid before Parliament for at least 21 sitting days without the House having resolved that it should not be ratified before the United Kingdom can ratify it.—(Greg Hands.)
The Chair
The Minister could speak now, but I think I will call Mr Gardiner and then Mr Grant. However, they must allow the Minister at least 15 minutes to reply. Is that all right with the Minister?
Barry Gardiner
Thank you, Sir Edward. I welcome the opportunity, under your chairmanship, to address the Committee in this important and long overdue debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West speaks here for the European Scrutiny Committee. I speak for the official Opposition, and I am delighted to support the cross-party amendment tabled by me, my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Glenrothes.
For the avoidance of any doubt—there was doubt, because the Minister tried to sow it—the Labour party believes in an open, fair system of trade. Trade is one of the most effective means of creating shared prosperity and decent jobs. From the very first, when free trade was a radical cause in British politics, my party argued for open markets in the crisis years of the 1920s and ’30s, as mounting calls for protectionism led the world towards disaster.
We understand the power of fair and open trade today. We share the dream of the vast majority of people around the world who want closer ties between countries. We want to build trade links, not protectionist walls. Trade is one of the most important mechanisms for binding peoples together, but we want trade agreements that respect—
Greg Hands
Does the hon. Gentleman agree with his party leader, who described free trade as a dogma?
Barry Gardiner
I am not interested in university debating points ad hominem. Free trade has become narrowed in its interpretation. The right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that I have focused on the benefits that an open and fair trading system can bring, and that is what we want, but we want trade agreements that respect sovereignty and that benefit little companies, not just major corporations. We want trade agreements that make our society a more, not less, equal place. That is why I am delighted to support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West.
I want to deal with the process first. I will try to be brief because we talked a great deal about this issue during the questions. The failure to bring consideration of CETA to a full debate on the Floor of the House should be a matter of not only regret by the Government, but deep disquiet for hon. Members from all parties. The job in front of the Committee today is very clear. It is not to decide whether CETA should proceed or not. It is to decide whether it is appropriate, given all the concerns there are about CETA, that the Secretary of State should honour the promise and commitment he gave to the House in his written statement and to the European Scrutiny Committee and that we should debate this on the Floor of the House.
I welcome the fact that we have finally today been given the opportunity to discuss this issue, but I cannot help but record that at its meeting on 7 September last year the European Scrutiny Committee recommended CETA for an early debate on the Floor of the House. It did so in view of the unprecedented public interest shown in this new generation of international trade agreements and the complex legal and policy issues raised for the UK. The Committee granted the Government a waiver to allow them to sign CETA at the EU Council of Ministers, but that waiver was conditional upon the promised debate being scheduled urgently to take place on the Floor of the House and at the very latest, it said, before the provisional application of CETA.
As I said, the Secretary of State appeared before the Committee on 26 October. He said that that he was “very happy” to have that debate on the Floor of the House and claimed that the failure to do so had been the result of scheduling problems in the parliamentary calendar. In reality, as the freedom of information request I referred to earlier showed, the Government had not been delayed by a scheduling problem in the parliamentary calendar at all. In fact, the first time the Secretary of State’s Department even approached the business managers to discuss a potential debate on CETA was 25 October—one day before the Secretary of State was due to appear before the European Scrutiny Committee to account for his failure to do so.
“What advice would you give”—
the Department asked—
“would it be better to have an actual date or do you think we can just tell the chair we are in the process of scheduling a debate”.
That does not sound like a Secretary of State committed to full parliamentary scrutiny and to keeping his promise. The Government confirmed in their subsequent letter of 30 November that they recognised a debate on the Floor of the House of Commons to be “of the utmost importance”.
Greg Hands
We have had a good, wide-ranging and lengthy debate, which I welcome. I would like to address some of the important issues raised by members of the Committee, but first I make it clear that the NHS is not at risk from CETA. That is of fundamental importance to the Government. A careful assessment of the legal protections was carried out by lawyers, and we ensured that we were fully satisfied that the NHS is not at risk.
Nothing in CETA prevents the pursuit of legitimate public policy objectives, such as protecting the NHS. To reinforce that point, CETA does not get in the way of our sovereignty on any such matters. The joint interpretive instrument clearly states that the parties have the right to regulate in this manner. The UK can choose to protect public health—by regulating fizzy drinks, for example; that was one of the issues raised earlier. Linked to that is the fact that Governments are also allowed to protect labour rights—
Greg Hands
I am going to make progress first. There are a lot of points to answer after two hours of debate.
Linked to that is the fact that Governments are also allowed to protect labour rights and human rights. A fair, non-discriminatory and proportionate action taken by a member state Government, including to protect human rights, would not breach investment protection. Governments are also able to take action to protect the environment as they see fit. I want to restate that this Government support transparency and proper scrutiny of the agreement. We have followed the usual procedure and engaged extensively with the scrutiny Committees in both Houses, as I outlined. I will add more detail in a moment. Crucially, we have worked hard to secure this debate in advance of the vote on CETA in the European Parliament on 15 February.
To be clear, the Committee requested the debate on 7 September, ahead of the conference recess, which, as we all know, ran from 15 September to 10 October, so it was not possible to schedule the debate before then. CETA was fast-moving, and was originally scheduled for agreement at the end of September. It was only later on that it slipped to 18 October, and eventually 20 October. I hope that the hon. Member for Brent North understands that it has not been possible to schedule the debate on this timetable. The Government have, as has been noted, opened a TTIP reading room for parliamentarians; that is not dissimilar to the operations of the European Parliament. We warmly welcome that ability of Members of Parliament to engage. We have also written proactively to the scrutiny Committees in both Houses on the subject of ongoing trade negotiations; that goes back some time.
The Government are fully committed to transparency and consulting with a wide range of stakeholders during trade negotiations, including the devolved Administrations, while recognising that trade policy is reserved to the United Kingdom. We have provided updates to the devolved Administrations during the process, and my Department looks forward to consulting with them going forward.
On the investment court system of arbitration, the UK welcomes the investment protection provisions in CETA. We also welcome the clear statement of the right of Governments to regulate. We support the inclusion of dispute settlement provisions. It is important for there to be a dispute settlement procedure, but we continue to have concerns about the cost and effectiveness of the proposed ICS. The UK will continue to work with other member states to improve the system.
Geraint Davies
If we must have a dispute settlement system, how is it that we have had successful trade between Canada and the EU based on the fact that we have national courts, European law and the European Court of Human Rights in Europe, and provincial courts, the Supreme Court and appeal courts in Canada? Investors are happy. We do not need the system. No case has been made.
Greg Hands
Foreign investment is incredibly important to this country. It is also important that we protect our investors in markets such as Canada. It is important that we ensure those things are protected, while also protecting the right of member states and Parliament to legislate as they see fit, and the right to regulate. The UK will continue to work with other member states to improve the system. I restate that crucially, the ICS is not being provisionally applied here. Parliament and the UK will therefore have the option further to debate and scrutinise the system, and CETA in its entirety, as part of the ratification process.
In the time available, I will deal with as many of the many points raised as I can. The hon. Member for Brent North asked why there has been no impact assessment of ICS or its predecessor, ISDS. The answer is that ISDS has been in operation for some time. The UK Government have never had a successful case taken against us. All the cases listed earlier were not actions against the UK Government. I reinforce that the system does not, will not and cannot supersede national laws.
Greg Hands
I am going to make a bit more progress, because a lot of points have already been raised. We had an extensive question-and-answer session and extensive speeches that I need to respond to, to be fair.
A question was asked about the methodology for the £1.3 billion figure, which is what the UK will likely gain from the agreement once it is fully in operation. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman said, that was not produced simply by restating EU estimates. The figure is the result of modelling commissioned by the Government during the course of the negotiations, and it shows broad benefits across a range of sectors.
Barry Gardiner
I refer to the explanatory memorandum of July last year, which explicitly states the way in which the figure was calculated. I can find the exact reference.
Barry Gardiner
It is the Department for International Trade’s “Explanatory Memorandum on European Union Document: Proposal for a Council Decision on the provisional application of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Canada of the one part, and the European Union and its Member States, of the other part”, from July 2016.
Greg Hands
The figure of £1.3 billion may be the same one that the hon. Gentleman cites, but I am confident that my figure is the result of modelling commissioned by the Government.
I was asked whether environmental standards can be increased. Article 24.3 of CETA specifically provides that parties are free to establish their own environmental standards. The hon. Member for Swansea West raised fracking. Contrary to what he said, CETA does not get in the way of the right to regulate. Exactly as we would expect, it does not give fracking companies the right to invest in the UK if they are in breach of UK national laws.
Greg Hands
No, because I am worried about finishing within the time limit.
Crucially, the mere loss of profit is not sufficient to ground a claim in the ICS process. Even if it were, it would not require us to change our laws. Why did we not raise reservations, as other countries did, and protect our public services? Well, we do have a few reservations in CETA, but we have never been subject to a trade dispute concerning public services. We are confident that if one arose, we would defend it.
On geographic indicators, CETA allows for future protection of geographic status, as I have already said. When the negotiations took place in 2011, there was insufficient trade in specific goods for us to qualify. However, it is incredibly important to think about the impact that CETA will have on our ability to export key UK products. I mentioned Scotch whisky earlier; UK cheeses will now be able to enter the Canadian market free of tariffs or other barriers. There will also be zero tariffs on industrial goods. There are a host of things, and all of them will be of immense benefit to the UK and all its constituent parts.
We have delivered on our undertaking to have a debate on CETA. The hon. Member for Brent North was right to draw attention to the European Scrutiny Committee’s request for a debate before the provisional application of CETA at the very latest, but there has not yet been provisional application; that is subject to the European Parliament’s vote on 15 February. Nor has the matter fully progressed through the Canadian Parliament. We are fully in conformity with the European Scrutiny Committee’s request. I urge Members to vote against the amendment.
I am glad that the hon. Member for Swansea West raised previous debates on international trade treaties. One fascinating aspect of this debate is where the official Opposition stand on these subjects. I am glad that he mentioned his debate on 15 January 2015, because two of the then Back Benchers who featured in that debate were the right hon. Members for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), and for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who spoke out very strongly against TTIP and against this kind of international trade treaty.
Geraint Davies
The Minister will also remember the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) speaking strongly against this proposal, with reference to national sovereignty and interference. All sorts of people take all sorts of angles on this; that is why we need a debate. All we are saying is, “Have a debate”, because we cannot agree. It is absolutely outrageous to railroad democracy in this way, and it is a recipe for future railroading.
Greg Hands
I note that we have already had two and a quarter hours tonight—there has been quite a good debate. The hon. Gentleman is right that concerns have been voiced, but there is not necessarily outright opposition. We, too, have concerns about ICS, and I have raised some of them tonight. However, I have to point out that he is wholly opposed to CETA. At least, that is what he said last week.
Geraint Davies
In essence, I am in favour of free trade, and I think CETA and TTIP could be blueprints for future trade. The issue is to get them right, and not to give them special powers whereby transnational companies can undermine our democracy and liberties.
Greg Hands
I am not going to dwell on this for too long. We heard this evening the hon. Member for Brent North make what sounded like a very long speech against the agreement; it now turns out that he is in favour of it. The hon. Member for Swansea West was strongly against it last week and called for debates on this subject previously, in which the leader of his party and the shadow Chancellor appeared with him. The hon. Member for Nottingham East, who is a member of the International Trade Committee, is not here this evening but may well have a different view. As for the Labour Whip, who knows where Labour Whips stand these days on party policy?
I have two other points. The hon. Member for Brent North talked about a study showing that apparently the UK would suffer a loss of exports. He carefully did not mention what that study was. I suspect it is the Tufts University study, which uses an approach that is useful for analysing a number of global macroeconomic issues, but is not suitable for trade policy analysis. The ICS is not a supranational court. It cannot override or amend national laws and is, in any case, not subject to provisional application. I urge all Committee members to support the original motion proposed by the Government.
Greg Hands
No, I will not. It was not possible to schedule a debate ahead of the extraordinary Foreign Affairs Council trade meeting on 18 October. It was strongly in the interests of the UK to signal political agreement at that Council. We worked hard to secure this debate—in advance, crucially, of the vote on CETA in the European Parliament on 15 February. Owing to the pressures of the legislative timetable, it has not been possible to have this debate in the main Chamber of the House, for reasons that are clear if Members look at the Annunciator.
I am pleased that we have had this opportunity to debate this important matter within the appropriate timetable. I urge the Committee to vote against the amendment. The Government are strongly committed to engaging further with Parliament as we move towards ratification of the agreement on a timely basis. I commend the Government’s motion to the Committee, and urge Members to support the motion and oppose the amendment.
Amendment proposed: line 10, leave out from “part;” to end and insert
“welcomes the prospect of enhanced trading relations between the United Kingdom and Canada; is disappointed that the Government has so far failed to provide a full debate on the floor of the House as recommended by the European Scrutiny Committee; notes that this is a mixed agreement which must be laid before Parliament for at least 21 sitting days, without the House having resolved that it should not be ratified, before the United Kingdom can ratify it; and believes that the Government should provide an opportunity for the House to come to a decision on this issue following a full debate on the floor of the House in advance of ratification.”—(Geraint Davies.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Oral Answers to Questions
Greg Hands Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
The United States is our single largest export market, accounting for £100 billion-worth of UK exports. As the Prime Minister said, the UK and US are, and will remain, strong and close partners on trade, security and defence. We cannot negotiate and conclude trade deals while we are a member of the EU, but we can discuss our current and future trading relationships. The Secretary of State for International Trade, Lord Price and I have all visited the US since taking office. We look forward to working with President-elect Donald Trump to ensure the continuing prosperity of our nations.
Mr Bone
The excellent Minister is quite correct that the USA is our biggest single export market, although we have no trade deal with it. However, the current President said that we would at the “back of the queue” when it comes to a trade deal. In the discussions that the Minister will have in the US, does he think that President-elect Trump will put us at the back or the front of the line?
Greg Hands
My hon. Friend is right to stress the importance of the bilateral trading relationship and the investment relationship. Every day, 1 million Britons go to work for American companies here and 1 million Americans go to work for British companies in the United States. Not only are our exports to the US very strong, but they grew by 19% in the most recent year for which data are available. Of course we look forward to developing a stronger and more open trading relationship with the new President and the new Congress.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
One of the main proponents of a future UK-US trade deal in Congress is Congressman Charlie Dent, who happens to be a very good friend of mine and of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). However, President-elect Trump was elected on an anti-globalisation mandate, so why does the Minister think the new President will put UK-US trade deals at the front of his agenda in a post-Brexit environment?
Greg Hands
Over the summer, I met Senator Orrin Hatch, one of the co-authors of the Congress resolution calling for a future US-UK free trade agreement. We strongly welcome the support right the way across Congress on our future trade relationship with the United States. As for the President-elect, I suggest we wait to see his actions. He did say during different campaign events:
“Trade has big benefits, and I am in favour—totally in favour—of trade…Isolation is not an option. Only great and well-crafted trade deals”.
We look forward to working with him in the future.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
What consideration has the Department given to the President-elect’s views on the Trans-Pacific Partnership?
Greg Hands
In a very general sense, the UK remains supportive of trade deals, right the way across the globe, that reduce or remove trade barriers—tariff barriers or non-tariff barriers—to help facilitate the flow of international trade.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
The TPP, which has just been mentioned, and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership have been fraught with difficulties and concerns from the public, businesses and sectors. So what will the Minister do when negotiating a bilateral trade deal with the US to make sure that those issues do not derail that kind of deal?
Greg Hands
The first thing to say is that TTIP is still on the table, and we have always been clear that the rights of Governments to regulate in the public interest will still be there in all these different trade deals. As the hon. Gentleman will know, TTIP has been debated in the Commons on at least five occasions, and the views of parliamentarians have been made clear. We will make sure that there will be no reduction in regulatory standards if TTIP comes to pass.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Greg Hands)
I know that my hon. Friend takes a huge interest in Korea and his Korean community in Kingston. He knows that I visited Seoul, as did Lord Price, in September and saw for myself what natural allies we will be in the global future of free trade. I had excellent meetings with Samsung and with other interlocutors. We look forward to working very closely with South Korea in the future in developing free trading relationships, and I will make sure that my hon. Friend is very involved.
Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Greg Hands
I commend my hon. Friend on his work as Chairman of the Science and Technology Committee. As he will know, I was in his constituency on Friday looking at some technological innovation at DP World’s fantastic port facilities at the London Gateway. The UK has a long-established system that supports and therefore attracts the brightest minds at all stages of their careers. We will make sure that Britain is the global go-to nation for scientists, innovators and tech investors.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
What steps is the Minister taking to include human rights expertise on UK trade delegations?
Greg Hands
If I understood the hon. Lady’s question correctly, while we remain members of the European Union, of course we are party to all the EU agreements and all the human rights elements attached to those. With regard to the future, the UK has as strong a history as any in the EU of promoting and protecting human rights around the world, including in relation to trade.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)