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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, the hybrid Grand Committee will now begin. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, while others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the Room to wear a face covering except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and any other touch points before and after use.
The microphone system for physical participants has changed. Your microphones will no longer be turned on at all times, in order to reduce the noise for remote participants. When it is your turn to speak, please press the button on the base of your microphone stand. Once you have done that, wait for the green flashing light to turn red before you begin speaking. The process for unmuting and muting for remote participants remains the same. If the capacity of the Room is exceeded, or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.
Medicines and Medical Devices Bill
Wednesday 11th November 2020
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
A participants’ list for today’s proceedings has been published by the Government Whips’ Office, as have lists of Members who have put their names to the amendments or expressed an interest in speaking on each group. I will call Members to speak in the order that they are listed. Members are not permitted to intervene spontaneously; the Chair calls each speaker. Interventions during speeches or “before the noble Lord sits down” are not permitted.
During the debate on each group I will invite Members, including Members in the Grand Committee Room, to email the clerk if they wish to speak after the Minister, using the Grand Committee address. I will call Members to speak in order of request and will invite the Minister to respond each time. The groupings are binding and it will not be possible to degroup an amendment for separate debate. A Member intending to move formally an amendment already debated should have given notice in the debate. Leave should be given to withdraw amendments.
When putting the Question, I will collect voices in the Grand Committee Room only. I remind Members that Divisions cannot take place in Grand Committee. It takes unanimity to amend the Bill, so if a single voice says “Not content”, an amendment is negatived and if a single voice says “Content”, a clause stands part. If a Member taking part remotely intends to oppose an amendment expected to be agreed to, they should make this clear when speaking on the group.
Amendment 49
Baroness Thornton
“Extending prescribing rights
The Secretary of State must, within three months of this Act being passed, lay before each House of Parliament proposals and a timetable for extending prescribing rights to additional healthcare professionals under section 2(1)(n).”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause requires the Secretary of State to publish proposals and a timetable for additional healthcare professionals to be given appropriately restricted prescribing rights.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I said at Second Reading that we on these Benches are supportive of the extension of prescribing rights to additional health- care professionals, including radiographers, dietitians, orthoptists and speech and language therapists. It is time that this issue was resolved and that is our intention in tabling this amendment. The new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish proposals and a timetable for additional healthcare professionals to be given appropriately restricted prescribing rights. I thank my noble friends Lord Bradley and Lord Hunt, and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for their support and I look forward to hearing their remarks.
The background to this issue is that, in February 2020, in response to a Parliamentary Question tabled by my honourable friend Geraint Davies MP, the Government said:
“Subject to Parliamentary approval, the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill currently before Parliament will give the Government powers to extend prescribing responsibilities to new professional groups where it is safe and appropriate to do so.”
We support that extension and our proposed amendment to the Bill will expedite that, resulting in better outcomes for patients and the system as we face a surge in demand on health services both now and in the future due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
The extension will build on the groundwork already undertaken by the NHS England scoping exercise over the past few years on extending prescribing rights to members and professionals. Extending prescribing rights would help to deliver better support and more timely care for patients. It would improve patient safety, as allied health professionals with appropriate expertise would be able to make decisions rather than relying on junior clinicians signing off clinical management plans. It would decrease the number of patient group directions needed, thus reducing the time spent on development, use and training, and it would bring prescribing expertise closer to the patient. It would reduce the pressure on other stretched professionals, including GPs, and it would improve system efficiency by reducing the duplication of work among health professionals, with a potential result of significant time and resource savings. The extension of prescribing rights to these professionals and others would make a significant and positive difference to those professionals and to the ability of the wider health system to respond as swiftly and efficiently as possible to the post-Covid-19 surge in demand on health services, including the rehabilitation and recovery of post-Covid-19 patients.
It is important to recognise the impact of Covid-19 and how it has emphasised the urgency of taking action. When we discussed these issues before the Bill came before the House, representatives expressed their frustration at how long it seemed to be taking to get approvals to work their way through the system. Given that we have managed to shortcut various systems because it has been necessary to do so with Covid-19, it seems that this is one that presents itself and needs a positive response. It will benefit the NHS, patients and expert health groups. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment and the potential for increasing prescribing responsibilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, was a huge champion of prescribing rights for nurses. I was able to extend that to community pharmacists and I want to see us now build on that by extending it to other professions in healthcare. Dietitians, occupational health therapists, orthoptists, radiographers and speech and language therapists all have a hugely important role to play and giving them prescribing responsibilities would help to deliver safer, better and timelier patient care.
We have seen already how dietitians have hugely expanded their role in the treatment of diabetes, gastroenterology, bariatrics, metabolic conditions and oncology. Orthoptics has seen its roles expand in stroke management and neuro-rehabilitation and neuro-ophthalmology, in particular among children with SEN and for paediatric ophthalmology. Diagnostic radiographers are increasingly performing routine interventional procedures under imaging control, while speech and language therapist roles have developed in respiratory care, ear, nose and throat services, critical care and end-of-life care. Occupational therapists have increased their advanced practitioner roles and are demonstrating a hugely beneficial impact across all areas of the NHS.
There is a problem. It has been reported that the current ability of these professions to administer medicines to support patients through patient group directions and/or patient-specific directions is apparently becoming increasingly difficult. They are either taking longer to secure or they are being more restrictive, to the detriment of patient care and safety. I ask the Minister why this is. I refer to his interesting comment on Second Reading, when he said:
“NHS England and NHS Improvement are considering across all non-medical groups, influenced by learning from the Covid-19 pandemic, where there is a need to consider undertaking formal consultation on potential amendments to prescribing responsibilities for several professional groups.”—[Official Report, 2/9/20; col. 432.]
This is very welcome—and, of course, implied in that statement is a recognition that during the past six months we have had to rely on professional and other staff adding to their responsibilities and going beyond the extra mile. By extending prescribing rights, we would be recognising that fact and recognising that many of our professionals can do more, if they are given the ability to do it.
Provided that this happens within safe bounds—and so far, prescribing for non-medics seems to have worked very successfully—we have a total win-win situation, in which patients will benefit and the professional development and satisfaction of many of our staff groups will increase. I believe that my noble friend’s intention is to give the Minister all support for charging on with the extension of prescribing rights, and I hope that she will embrace that support and get a move on.
Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]
My Lords, I must declare two interests in explaining why I have put my name to the amendment—first, as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Speech and Language Difficulties, and secondly, as an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. As always, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, both of whom know a great deal more about this subject than I do.
As I reported on Second Reading, on 12 August the Minister in the other place wrote that the Bill would allow the Government to update those professional organisations that can prescribe medicines when it was safe and appropriate to do so. This is in line with what the Minister said on Second Reading, which was quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. If the experience of dieticians, orthoptists, diagnostic radiographers and speech and language therapists is anything to go by, the role of such people has expanded considerably during the pandemic, during which there has been ever-increasing pressure on health professionals.
Prescribing responsibilities would enable allied professions to share the burden with their NHS colleagues and avoid unnecessary delay and duplication for patients. Their call for increased prescribing responsibilities is backed up by hard-pressed NHS trusts, which have identified a means of increasing their capacity. Therefore I hope that, on the basis of experience during the pandemic, the Minister will be able to announce proposals and a timetable for extending prescribing rights for certain carefully chosen health professional organisations within three months of the Bill being passed, as part of the NHS long-term improvement plan.
Lord Bradley (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I am pleased to support this timely amendment, which, as we have heard, would introduce a new clause to the Bill to extend prescribing rights to additional healthcare professionals. It is a consequence of the debate on Second Reading, which clearly laid out the benefits of extending prescribing rights to such allied health professionals as dieticians, orthoptists, diagnostic radiographers and speech and language therapists. I will not repeat all the advantages this would bring, because that argument has already been well made, both on Second Reading and in the speeches we have already heard this afternoon. In summary, I believe that it would help to deliver better support and more timely care for patients, reduce pressure on other health professionals, increase system efficiency and maximise the ability to respond to the Covid-19 pandemic, both now and in the predicted post-pandemic surge in the pressure on services.
Lord Balfe (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow the four noble Lords who tabled this amendment, all of whom are working from exactly the same brief as I am—I can tell that from the quotes. First, I should declare an interest: I have not been present in Committee before, but am here as a former president of the British Dietetic Association, a TUC-affiliated union. The Bill was published during the dying days of my presidency and I undertook to speak in support of the proposed new clause.
I have nothing substantial to add to what has been already been so ably said by colleagues. I will just point out that dieticians are one of the groups seeking to extend this, and people often misunderstand what dieticians are for. The number of times I have been asked whether I am associated with Weight Watchers has rather driven me insane, but dieticians are actually more involved with undernutrition than overnutrition. Although people think of obesity and what are now the more popular things, the biggest challenge facing the average dietician is a person probably over 80 years old, almost certainly living alone and generally not caring for themselves. So the role of a dietician is often to get people to eat a balanced diet. They work in hospitals and in the community, and with other health professionals, particularly in developing clinical management plans. That effort would be reduced if this proposed clause were accepted.
Points about dieticians and others have been extensively made. I understand that
“within three months of this Act being passed”
is a big ask, but also that, unless we ask for something, we will probably not get anything at all. The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has already quoted the Minister at Second Reading saying that they were
“considering across all non-medical groups … where there is a need to consider undertaking formal consultation on potential amendments to prescribing responsibilities”.—[Official Report, 2/9/20; col. 432.]
I realise that, at the time of Covid, there is a huge number of demands on the Minister’s department and the staff therein but, overall, if this can be made to work, it will benefit and increase the productivity of health professionals. So, in associating myself with the previous speeches, I also encourage the Minister to give as positive a response as he is able to. I am sure that, if we extend prescribing rights, we will be benefiting many patients and the medical profession. We will also be enabling many health workers to play a more effective role in the care of their patients.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, I support Amendment 49 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Bradley. It mandates the Secretary of State to publish proposals and a timetable for additional healthcare professionals to be given appropriately restricted prescribing rights. As other noble Lords have said, for well over 20 years, some appropriately trained nurses have been prescribing from a restricted list. I see no reason why, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, described, appropriately trained allied health professionals and others, working from a list of approved medicines commensurate with their profession, should not do the same.
This is entirely appropriate at the moment, when it is not always easy to access a GP. We have seen how successful giving prescribing rights to both community and practice nurses has proven to be. Patients are becoming more willing to have appointments with AHPs and nurses, rather than GPs, which frees doctors to concentrate on patients requiring more experience, such as those with unusual or complex conditions. This is a win-win amendment and I heartily commend it.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I recognise that there is keen interest in how we may use powers in Clause 2(1)(n) of the Bill, relying on Clause 1(1), to continue to update the prescribing and supply responsibilities of healthcare professionals. However, I hope to persuade noble Lords that Amendment 49, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is unnecessary.
I am very pleased to say to noble Lords that NHS England and NHS Improvement are already leading work to scope the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals. On 15 October, they started consulting on a range of proposals to extend medicines administration and supply responsibilities, and to update the medicines that some existing independent prescribers may prescribe.
The consultations cover the use of patient group directions by biomedical and clinical scientists and operating department practitioners, exemptions enabling dental therapists and hygienists to supply some medicines, and changes to the controlled drugs that can be prescribed by physiotherapists, podiatrists and paramedic independent prescribers. If progressed, these proposals would allow patients to get timely and safe access to medicines from the most appropriate healthcare professionals, without the need for extra appointments from other prescribers, such as a GP. The current consultation will run until 10 December and is of course a public consultation. It will be informed by the views of key patient and professional groups, with engagement starting shortly through a series of online events.
I reassure noble Lords that we are committed to updating the prescribing and supply responsibilities of professional groups, where it is safe and appropriate to do so. In keeping with the rest of the Bill, any such changes will be made in a way that serves the best interests of patients. The powers allow us to ensure that professional responsibilities can be updated to reflect developments in professional practice, new approaches to care, changing scientific understanding and growing technical abilities. This ensures that we can continue to make full use of the skills available to us among NHS professionals, and support patients to receive the best possible care and support from NHS staff.
I know that a number of NHS professional groups are keen to see their members taking on responsibility for supplying or prescribing medicines. We have recently seen papers put forward by the British Dietetic Association, the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, the British and Irish Orthoptic Society, the Society of Radiographers and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. I am very grateful to the professional groups for the careful consideration that they have given to these issues.
I reassure noble Lords that NHSE/I already has extensive joint working and engagement under way with these and other professional groups to consider whether any other changes would help keep patients safe and well. This will build on the historic work with various professional bodies and the devolved Administrations, over the last few years, which resulted in a number of changes, including allowing paramedics and therapeutic radiographers to be independent prescribers. As well as this, a wider scoping project is being led by NHS England and NHS Improvement, with the devolved Administrations and professional bodies, on the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals.
I also reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who raised this that NHS England and NHS Improvement’s work on prescribing and supply will of course account for lessons learned from the Covid-19 response. For instance, NHSE/I wishes to learn from professional bodies and, in its scoping work, is asking them how the use of medicines mechanisms contributed and how they can play a role in increasing capacity to respond to future challenges. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, feels able to withdraw her amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
I have received no requests to speak after—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
Oh, right. I have received one request to speak after the Minister. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I am sorry; it was possibly delayed. It was really just to ask the noble Baroness: when is the earliest she thinks there will be change? Are we looking at three months, six months or a year?
Baroness Penn (Con)
I might need to pick this up with the noble Baroness in writing afterwards. The consultation will close in December and, obviously, work has to be done after that—but it is probably safest to write, if that is okay.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
If these were normal times, I would have just popped up and asked that question.
I thank my colleagues—my noble friends Lord Hunt and Lord Bradley. My noble friend Lord Bradley is one of my roommates here. I have not seen him since March and I am missing him very much. So it is very nice to see him, even on the screen, and he made a very powerful case. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who has enormous expertise in the very important areas of speech and language therapies. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly.
Given the promise that we might actually, at some point, have a date, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bethell
“(1A) The appropriate authority may only make regulations under subsection (1) if satisfied that they would promote one or more of the following—(a) the health and welfare of animals;(b) the health and safety of the public;(c) the protection of the environment.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the appropriate authority may only make regulations under subsection (1) of Clause 8 if satisfied that they would promote the health or welfare of animals, the health and safety of the public or the protection of the environment.
Lord Bethell
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the appropriate authority to have regard to the factors mentioned in subsection (2)(a), (b) and (c) of Clause 8 in considering whether regulations under subsection (1) would promote the health or welfare of animals, the health and safety of the public or the protection of the environment.
Lord Bethell
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name inserting a new subsection after subsection (1) of Clause 8.
“(c) the likelihood of the relevant part of the United Kingdom being seen as an attractive or favourable place in which to develop or supply veterinary medicines.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies what was meant by the version of Clause 8(2)(c) in the Bill as brought from the House of Commons.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 62. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate.
Clause 9: Manufacture, marketing, supply and field trials
Amendment 62
Baroness Wheeler
“(1A) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision about the use of the Cascade.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment gives the Secretary of State the responsibility to make provisions regarding the Cascade, a risk-based decision process where veterinarians can dispense different medicines to animals beyond the terms of authorisation.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
My Lords, I am pleased to move Amendment 62 in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton. It amends Clause 9 of the Bill dealing with manufacture, marketing, supply and field trials. This is a probing amendment. It would give the Secretary of State the responsibility to make provisions, in respect of the cascade, risk-based decision-making process, allowing vets to prescribe unauthorised medicines when they are unable to get hold of suitable authorised medicines.
The cascade provision for the medical treatment of animals will be vitally important if there are problems with the supply of veterinary medicines in the event of no deal. The British Veterinary Association has underlined the importance of maintaining the cascade, and of the Veterinary Medicines Directorate reviewing the cascade to consider whether it would be possible to allow greater flexibility on the use of medicinal products licensed elsewhere in the EU and those of other partners within the International Cooperation on Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Registration of Veterinary Medicine Products, known as VICH.
I am always struck by how much one learns during the course of working on legislation in the House of Lords, and how much is new that one was previously unaware of but should have been. The cascade system for prescribing unauthorised medicines is a good example for me. It is a vitally important procedure, underpinned by 2019 guidance from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate, whereby vets are permitted to use their clinical judgment where there is no suitable veterinary medicine authorised in the UK for the specific condition in the animal being treated. Cascade gives vets access to a wider range of medicines to treat animals within their care and to prevent unavoidable suffering that could happen were a vet unable to prescribe a suitable alternative.
The cascade goes through the various stages of decision-making in the treatment of animals in descending order of suitability, commencing with the desired outcome of using an available authorised UK veterinary medicine and going through other stages, including the use of clinically suitable alternatives of, for example, human medicines authorised in the UK or in another member state for use in animals. The final provision is for the use of a medicine prescribed by the vet responsible for treating the animal and prepared specially on the occasion of the treatment being required—known as “extemporaneous preparation”. This has to be prepared by a vet or a pharmacist or a person holding an appropriate manufacturer’s authorisation.
In exceptional circumstances, where no suitable veterinary medicine is available either as an authorised product or under the cascade, a vet may treat an animal with a medicine authorised in a country outside the EU via the Special Imports Scheme. Clearly, the guidelines and appropriate primary legislation will need to be amended in the light of our forthcoming exit from the EU—or if there is no deal. So can the Minister tell the Committee what preparations are being made in respect of this very important matter?
Prescribing decisions under the cascade are made on a case-by-case basis. The prescribing vet is personally responsible for the choice of product, is subject to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons’ code of professional conduct and must always obtain the owner’s consent for their animal to be treated under the cascade. Accurate record keeping is also required under the guidelines. Supplies of products used under the cascade and associated records can be examined during inspections of vets’ premises by the VMD and the RCVS. Under the last tier of the cascade, extemporaneous preparations —also known as veterinary specials—can legally be prescribed, supplied and used, recognising that they carry a higher risk than authorised medicines.
So this is an important scheme and the maintenance of the veterinary medicines cascade is a vital issue in the medical treatment of animals post Brexit, particularly in the event of no deal, as I said. I look forward to the Minister’s explanation of the action being taken to ensure that the cascade is maintained, continued and, if possible, simplified in line with the BVA’s recommendations. We need assurance that the Government will not use the powers in this Bill to diverge from the cascade after it is passed.
Finally, the BVA has underlined that, if it is to remain as one of the leading agencies in Europe and beyond, the Bill must be used to establish a national authorisation procedure for veterinary medicines, on the same scientific and evidence-based technical requirements as adopted by the EU, firmly rooted in the established standards set for quality, safety and effectiveness. The association has emphasised that, to have an influential voice in global veterinary regulatory affairs, it is vitally important for the UK to seek full membership of the international technical requirements registration body, the VICH, to which I referred earlier. I look forward to the Minister’s response on this vital issue.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has given a really good description of the cascade and the way in which it works. It is a risk- based decision process whereby vets can dispense different medicines to animals beyond the term of authorisation. The BVA supports maintaining the cascade. Can the Minister confirm the arrangements if no suitable UK drugs are available? Can she also confirm that veterinary drugs will be part of trade deals with both the EU and the US?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for raising the important issue of the prescribing cascade, as put forward in Amendment 62. I recognise the desire to ensure that the use of the cascade continues to be regulated. It is an important tool for veterinary surgeons, as they can access a wider range of medicines to treat animals under their care and avoid unacceptable suffering. However, I reassure the noble Baroness that this amendment is not necessary. The Bill already confers discretionary powers that will allow the appropriate authority to decide, following public consultation, if and how the existing cascade provisions in the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 should be amended.
The existing provisions for the prescribing cascade are well used and well understood by veterinary surgeons who are responsible for their prescribing decisions. The provisions were so well described by the noble Baroness that I shall not repeat them here.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, is right that the second option under the cascade is the use of human medicine authorisation in the UK or a veterinary medicine authorised in an EU member state. She and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked what will happen after the end of the transition period. On 1 January, the second option will be extended to encompass the importing of veterinary medicines from any other country, rather than only EU member states. This is being provided for through secondary legislation taken through last year, I believe.
The Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 also set out additional conditions that need to be met when a product is prescribed under the cascade for use in food-producing species. These conditions help protect the safety of consumers of produce from treated animals. The conditions state that the pharmacologically active substances contained in the medicines must have a maximum residue limit, an appropriate withdrawal period must be specified, and specified records must be kept. These conditions help protect the safety of consumers of produce from treated animals. We do not plan to significantly diverge from the current prescribing cascade for veterinary medicines.
The new EU regulation 2019/6 on veterinary medicinal products will apply in the EU from January 2022. This regulation introduces changes to the cascade, such as separate cascade structures for food producing and non-food producing animals. It includes provisions on the use of antimicrobial medicines under the cascade. For example, the European Commission may, by means of implementing Acts yet to be adopted by the EU, establish a list of antimicrobials which shall not be used under the cascade and a list of antimicrobials which shall be used, subject to certain conditions for cascade use. If it is in the best interests of the UK, we can make provision corresponding or similar to those in EU regulation under the powers in the Bill.
The UK Government and animal sectors have already shown their commitment to tackling antimicrobial resistance and the sectors have substantially reduced their use of antimicrobials in food-producing species—a 53% reduction in sales between 2014 and 2018. The Government will consult on proposed changes to the VMR, including changes implementing our priorities on antimicrobial resistance.
The amendment that the noble Baroness has proposed would obligate the Secretary of State to make changes to the regulations on the use of the cascade. I hope I have reassured her that the cascade remains of vital importance, and it is right that we have the option to amend the regulations when it is appropriate and necessary, subject to consultation, rather than being obliged to do so.
I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on her question about trade deals.
In the light of that response, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, for her support and the Minister for her response. As I said, I have learned a great deal about this valuable procedure. I am grateful for the Minister’s reassurance on the Government’s continued support for and commitment to the cascade. I will certainly read her comments carefully. I did not hear any reference to the VICH, but if she would write to me on that that would be very helpful. With that, I withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bethell
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the amendment in the Minister’s name inserting new subsection (1A) into Clause 10.
“(1A) Regulations under section 8(1) may not provide for an offence to be punishable with a sentence of imprisonment of more than two years.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, and the other amendment to clause 10 in the Minister’s name, ensures that regulations under Clause 8(1) may not provide for any offence to be punishable with a sentence of imprisonment of more than two years.
Lord Bethell
“Disclosure of information in accordance with international agreements
(1) This section applies to information which a relevant authority holds in connection with veterinary medicines.(2) The relevant authority may disclose information to a person outside the United Kingdom where required for the purpose of giving effect to an international agreement or arrangement concerning the regulation of veterinary medicines.(3) The relevant authority may not disclose commercially sensitive information in reliance on subsection (2) unless the relevant authority— (a) considers that it is necessary to do so for the purpose mentioned in that subsection, and(b) is satisfied that the making of the disclosure is proportionate to what is sought to be achieved by it.(4) Except as provided by subsection (5), the disclosure of information in accordance with this section does not breach—(a) an obligation of confidence owed by the person making the disclosure, or(b) any other restriction on the disclosure of the information (however imposed).(5) Nothing in this section authorises a disclosure of information which—(a) contravenes the data protection legislation (but in determining whether a disclosure would do so, take into account the powers conferred by this section), or(b) is prohibited by any of Parts 1 to 7 or Chapter 1 of Part 9 of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016.(6) In this section—“commercially sensitive information” means commercial information whose disclosure the relevant authority thinks might significantly harm the legitimate business interests of the undertaking to which it relates;“relevant authority” means—(a) the Secretary of State, or(b) the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland;“data protection legislation” has the meaning given by section 3(9) of the Data Protection Act 2018.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause makes clear that information held by the Secretary of State or the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland in connection with veterinary medicines can be disclosed, subject to certain restrictions, to persons outside the United Kingdom in order to give effect to a relevant international agreement or arrangement.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 67A. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the course of the debate.
Baroness Jolly
“Veterinary devices
(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed the Secretary of State must set up a working group to conduct a review of the regulation of veterinary devices.(2) The review under subjection (1) must make reference to the impact of the current system of regulation on—(a) animal welfare;(b) human safety; and(c) the environment.(3) The working group must consult bodies or individuals who are subject to regulation concerning veterinary devices during the course of the review. (4) The review under subsection (1) must make a recommendation as to whether further regulation should be introduced in light of its findings.(5) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the review before both Houses of Parliament.”
Baroness Jolly (LD)
My Lords, this Bill is about medicines and medical devices, and also includes veterinary medicines, which I understand the profession welcomes. I support government Amendment 131.
I confess, I wondered whether the veterinary part of the Bill was a bit of an afterthought, as although veterinary medicines are covered, I was somewhat bemused that there was no mention of veterinary devices. Modern vets make much use of veterinary and medical devices. Many pet owners expect their pets to be treated as well as they are by the NHS, and they are ready to pay. Many large animals, particularly stud animals, are of considerable value to their owners, who also expect modern treatment.
With a growing market for veterinary devices there are areas in which the absence of these devices often involves medical devices, but the profession anticipates that the veterinary device market will only increase and specialise. The Committee will appreciate that size is an issue. At present, many vets manage by using human medical devices, but I am sure the Committee will understand that vets treat animals of all sizes, from a hamster to a chihuahua, to a prize bull. I tabled these amendments in anticipation of a vibrant veterinary device market. To use devices designed for a human body weight is not always appropriate.
My amendment calls for the Secretary of State to set up a working group to conduct a review into the regulation of veterinary devices, referencing animal welfare, human safety and the environment, and make appropriate consultations before laying a copy of the review before both Houses. Amendment 67B is also in my name and calls for a review of the impact of the Bill on veterinary medicines.
We are in a transition, and by the end of 2021 or thereabouts there will be a clearer picture about veterinary medicines, a year after leaving the EU. The Secretary of State should consult relevant bodies, such as the BVA, the NFU and animal welfare groups such as the PDSA and the RSPCA, but I think noble Lords should agree that there is a case for veterinary devices in the Bill.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
My Lords, I am pleased to speak to government Amendment 131, merely to ask a question. The amendment will require reporting, which is positive and is to be welcomed. However, it leaves the matter of who is to be consulted to the discretion of the Secretary of State, because proposed new subsection (2) refers to
“such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”,
while proposed new subsection (3)(a) requires the Secretary of State to take account of
“concerns raised, or proposals for change”,
but only those made by a person in accordance with subsection (2). Those persons are left to the discretion of the Secretary of State. It is not only the people who are consulted who are chosen; the list is produced by the Secretary of State.
To have any substance to it, the proposed new clause ought not to leave it to the whims of the individual Secretary of State to decide who ought to be consulted. There should be some minimal statutory list, or principles that can guide a list in practice, to give transparency and confidence. My question is quite simple: is it likely that the Government will produce a list of who they will consult?
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, I put my name down to speak on this group primarily to speak to Amendment 106 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, but I will comment briefly on the excellent Amendment 67A from the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. It seems to address an obvious lacuna in the Bill and I hope that the addition of veterinary devices would be a really simple procedure that the Government could take on board. I also commend Amendment 67B in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, and associate myself with the remarks from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, on the concerns about the apparent weakness of government Amendment 131.
I wanted to speak to Amendment 106 because many of us who have been in different roles in politics over many years are used to receiving cries for help from people who feel as if medical systems have made them more ill, treated them badly and failed to live up to the oath of “first do no harm”. It is very hard for a person in your Lordships’ House or in politics to make a judgment call on what can be done and how people can be helped—on how systematic the issue really is and where this should be going. What we really need is a place where records are kept overall; it does not feel as if that is happening at the moment. The amendment lays down a way to address that. Of course, we have not heard yet from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, so I am interpreting what her amendment says.
There is also a broader point here, which we need to address throughout the Bill, and which I have been thinking about in the context of Covid-19. We really have a huge problem of trust, given the concern among significant parts of the public about how systems are working and whether decisions are being made in the right interests. One thing we need to do is to make sure that the whole system is transparent and open, and that records are there and accessible. We know of so many cases—the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, set out some—where there tends to be a particular issue with the way that medicine has treated women.
There is also an issue in that the people who come to us and are able to make a fuss are often those who, in one way or another, have some form of social capital in their education, knowledge and ability to reach out and seek help. If we do not have regular systems of keeping records to see problems arising, it may be the most vulnerable who suffer without really knowing how to speak out and initiate action. I commend Amendment 106 to the Committee and look forward to hearing further discussion on it.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
My Lords, our Amendment 106, which I am speaking to on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton, is in this group on reporting requirements under the Bill. Specifically, it would add a new clause providing for an annual report to Parliament on medical devices information systems established by NHS Digital under the powers conferred by Clause 16. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for her support for this amendment.
Clause 16(1) gives the Secretary of State the power by regulations to make provision for NHS Digital to establish and operate
“one or more information systems”
for medical devices. Under the Bill, these relate to the safety, performance and
“clinical effectiveness, of medical devices … placed on the market; … the safety of individuals who receive or are treated with a medical device”,
or who have one implanted in them, and
“the improvement of medical device safety and performance through advances in technology”.
The annual report proposed in our amendment would provide for the operation of these information systems to include information on the overall data in relation to
“the number of patients who receive or are treated with a medical device, or into whom a medical device is implanted; … any safety concerns received; and … any regulatory action taken.”
Finally, the amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State provided a copy of the report from the information centre on these related areas to the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
The Government’s own Amendment 131, providing a new clause after Clause 41 on consultation provisions and requirements, limits itself to the provision of a biennial report to Parliament starting:
“As soon as reasonably practicable after”
the Bill has passed on the operation of regulations laid on human medicines, veterinary devices and medical devices. The amendment is part of the Government’s response to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It also provides for regulations to be subject to public consultation before they can be made and requires the Secretary of State to include in the biennial report, as part of a consultation process, a summary of the concerns expressed or proposals put forward and, in consulting, to set out how the key issues of safety, availability and attractiveness have been taken into account.
The Minister’s letter to Peers of 13 October, which, as my noble friend Lady Thornton has already pointed out, we did not receive until after the amendments had been laid, underlines the importance of the Government’s amendments in providing a reporting obligation on the Secretary of State which
“will inform Parliament of the outcome of consultations on regulation made under Clauses 1, 8 and 12 during the two-year period under consideration, and provide a look ahead to expected regulatory change in the future”.
While consultation before the preparation of the report and information on the consultation, concerns and proposals are welcome, we do not accept that Amendment 131 fully meets the concerns of the DPRRC. We consider that an annual report to Parliament is essential, given the vital importance of the scrutiny and accountability that Parliament must be able to exercise.
We also consider that the government amendment should make a specific commitment to consultation with the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and not just to the Secretary of State consulting such persons as he/she considers appropriate. We will take up the key issue of consultation with the devolved Administrations in our later amendment and I look forward to the Minister’s response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, on these areas.
Finally, I strongly support Amendments 67A and 67B from the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, which call for reviews to be laid before Parliament of the regulation of veterinary devices and the Bill’s impact on veterinary medicines after the Act is passed. The noble Baroness made a pretty convincing case for these amendments. The delegated powers in Part 2 of the Bill to amend the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 are wide-ranging. Close scrutiny of the impact on animal welfare, human safety and the environment, together with full consultation with key stakeholders and recommendations on the need for further regulation, will be crucial. Similarly, the review of the Act’s impact on veterinary medicines, to be published one year after it is passed; on safety in relation to animals, humans and the environment; on availability in the UK; and on the UK’s participation in the development and supply of veterinary medicines would ensure full scrutiny of how the provisions in Clauses 9 and 10 were working in respect of these key issues.
I have two further points. During the Commons Committee on the Bill, we raised the importance of the availability of veterinary medicine services, as well as medicines across the country, and of ensuring that they are available in rural and urban settings. This would ensure that we do not have a two-tier system whereby there is better access to veterinary medicines and services in certain communities. We also called for a full assessment of the capacity of the veterinary industry to meet the regulatory and other requirements set out in the Bill. These are key issues which the review process set out in the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, would address. Can the Minister tell the Committee what work is being undertaken with veterinary sector stake- holders, including the British Veterinary Association and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, on these issues —particularly to ensure that, post Brexit, we have the sustainable, diverse and modernised UK veterinary infrastructure and skilled workforce that we need to ensure a safe environment for humans and animals?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 67A, put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, relates to veterinary devices. This is a proposed new clause seeking to ensure that the Secretary of State sets up a working group to review the regulation of veterinary devices within six months of this Act passing.
There is currently no specific legislation for veterinary medical devices. The market is small and manufacturers may choose to market their products for dual use—for humans and animals. The medical devices regulations are intended only for human devices. However, we consider that the regulatory framework is also suitable for ensuring the quality and safety of equipment for veterinary use. The Bill allows us only to amend or supplement the existing veterinary regulations in the manner described in Clauses 9 and 10. Those clauses do not provide authority for regulations to introduce substantial new standalone requirements for veterinary medical devices. If a medical device is packaged with a veterinary medicine, the marketing authorisation application would need to set out relevant information on that device. The device would therefore be assessed together with the veterinary medicine before a marketing authorisation is granted. Therefore, this type of medical device falls under the regulation of veterinary medicines.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
I have received one request to speak after the Minister. I call the noble Lord, Lord Patel.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
I merely wish to ask the Minister about the consolidation legislation, to which he referred. Am I to understand that the Minister is saying that the Secretary of State will respond to Parliament, and that the matter will be available for debate?
Lord Bethell (Con)
I will get to back to the noble Lord with the specific answer to that question, if I may.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee for very long. I thank the Minister for his comments. I feel inclined at the moment not to withdraw my amendment, but I would like to read Hansard, consult and decide whether to return with these amendments, or something like them, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bethell
“(1A) The Secretary of State may only make regulations under subsection (1) if satisfied that they would promote the health and safety of the public.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State may only make regulations under subsection (1) of Clause 12 if satisfied that they would promote the health and safety of the public.
Lord Bethell
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the factors mentioned in subsection (2)(a), (b) and (c) of Clause 12 in considering whether regulations under subsection (1) would promote the health and safety of the public.
Lord Bethell
“(c) the likelihood of the United Kingdom being seen as an attractive or favourable place in which to develop or supply medical devices.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies what was meant by the version of Clause 12(2)(c) in the Bill as brought from the House of Commons.
Lord Freyberg
“(3) Within 12 months of this section coming into force, the Secretary of State must initiate a comprehensive technical review of the definition of “medical device” under the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 with a view to addressing the inclusion of artificial intelligence software and algorithms including methodologies for the interpretation of data and associated technical architecture in medical devices.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to improve how the Bill addresses new technologies which have significant potential for harm, aligning with and improving on the EU and US equivalents.
Lord Freyberg (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the opportunity to speak today about medical devices that make use of data-processing methodologies, algorithms, artificial intelligence and other technical architecture. In moving Amendment 83, I shall speak also to Amendments 112 and 113.
I am a long-standing advocate of the use of patient data to provide better healthcare. Noble Lords can therefore rest assured that I by no means seek to introduce obstacles to the vital research and innovation that I know the Government wish to encourage and facilitate to improve the nation’s health. However, I seek to guarantee patient safety in our increasingly data-driven health service and to ensure that the UK is well placed to become a rule-maker and world leader post Brexit.
Others in this place have spoken eloquently about the need to prioritise consideration of patient safety in the Bill. In particular, I was moved by the expert and passionate speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, at Second Reading. I hope and anticipate that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, will remind us of the social and environmental consequences we should pay heed to in encouraging innovation in medicines and medical device development, which, I believe, should result in closer consideration of the implications of the growth in digital healthcare for the climate as the Government prepare to host COP 26. However, it was the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who helpfully reminded us of the importance of precision in the definitions and wording we agree in this place, and it is my intention here to do the same.
In speaking to Amendments 112 and 113, I am recommending specific protections in the form of an up-to-date definition of a medical device, because the Bill currently relies on a definition from the Medical Devices Regulations 2002, which were updated to include the term “software” in 2007 and therefore do not safeguard individuals from the potentially harmful effects of the full range of contemporary medical devices. The effect of my amendment would be to update the definition of a “medical device” and bring it in line with regulatory provisions in the EU and the US. The use of technology has advanced significantly since 2007 and I can see no good reason why the UK should be a laggard at this time.
In moving Amendment 83, I recognise that we are always, in some senses, on the cusp of new developments or breakthroughs in science and technology that have the potential to transform healthcare services as well as outcomes for individuals. I can therefore understand the Government’s desire for flexibility in presenting this Bill as they have done. However, I am certain that the Minister will agree that we find ourselves on the cusp where growth in the use of artificial intelligence in healthcare is concerned, not least because the Department of Health and Social Care has invested more than £250 million in establishing an AI lab this year and is preparing to publish the first national health and care data strategy this autumn, which is expected to state that the Government will prioritise the
“safe, effective and ethical use of data-driven technologies, such as artificial intelligence, to deliver fairer health outcomes”.
As such, I very much hope that the Government will, at the very least, support Amendment 83, the effect of which would be to require the Secretary of State to initiate a comprehensive technical review of the definition of a “medical device” under the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 within 12 months of this Bill coming into force, with a view to addressing the inclusion of artificial intelligence, software and algorithms, including methodologies for the interpretation of data and associated technical architecture, in the legal definition of a “medical device”.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]
My Lords, I want to strongly support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and myself, and to commend him on an extraordinarily well-informed speech in support of them. I absolutely support the amendments, in particular Amendment 83, which calls for the comprehensive technical review.
The noble Lord made all the points about dynamic algorithms, deep neural networks, the whole question of self-alteration by algorithm and the absolute need to avoid black-box AI, which chime strongly with everything that I know about artificial intelligence. I welcome, right at the beginning, the Minister’s agreement to meet the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and me to discuss these issues further. So I am taking this debate not as the end of the road but as the beginning of a dialogue on these issues.
The big question is: does the Minister really believe that we should be reviewing the definition of “medical device”? Does he believe that it is out of date but is simply reluctant to enshrine it in legislation? All Ministers hate their legislation being tampered with, but I am afraid that I am quite sure that this Bill will suffer some treatment on Report.
Even more important than the definitions is the question of how regulation takes effect on these medical devices, in particular on the new medical devices that incorporate algorithms in this way, and whether the regulation is fit for purpose. Without going into the paper at too great a length, I commend to the Minister the discussion paper from the US Food and Drug Administration, Proposed Regulatory Framework for Modifications to Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning-Based Software as a Medical Device. I have searched but I could not find that the MHRA had done anything of an equivalent quality. I will take a few quotes from the document that illustrate that this is exactly the kind of work that our own regulator needs to do.
The document states:
“Artificial intelligence- and machine-learning-based technologies have the potential to transform healthcare by deriving new and important insights from the vast amount of data generated during the delivery of healthcare every day … The traditional paradigm of medical device regulation was not designed for adaptive AI/ML technologies, which have the potential to adapt and optimize device performance in real-time to continuously improve healthcare for patients.”
That is positive, but it also puts on regulators a particular duty to continuously assess and monitor, as the nature of the medical device and the algorithm within it changes.
The paper sensibly goes on to suggest a completely different way of regulating this kind of dynamic algorithm and type of artificial intelligence incorporated in medical devices. It distinguishes between locked—static—algorithms and dynamic algorithms and states:
“In contrast to a locked algorithm, an adaptive algorithm (e.g., a continuous learning algorithm) changes its behavior using a defined learning process. The algorithm adaptation or changes are implemented such that for a given set of inputs, the output may be different before and after the changes are implemented.”
Those are exactly the points that the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, made.
The FDA, of course, is one of the great regulators globally. In a sense, it carries on regardless of whatever Administration are in place. So it has a very high reputation. I hope that we are heeding the wise words of the FDA and I very much hope that we are taking on board all the suggestions that the FDA has made for better regulation of algorithms. They are different. I hope that the Minister is not being Canute-like in holding back the thought that new technologies need new treatments in regulatory terms and I am looking forward to what he has to say.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow two such wonderfully informed and informative speeches and I thank the noble Lords for tabling this amendment. So that the Committee can understand my position in this, I will say that I wrote part of a master’s thesis 20 years ago on artificial intelligence. That of course is an age in terms of these things, but I had cause to engage with the issues of medicine and artificial intelligence just last year when I was asked to take part in a debate on the subject. One of the things that I found was that a lot of the language has not changed. Twenty years ago, AI was almost there and now, while we have a great deal of big data, how much closer we are to actual artificial intelligence is another question. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, referred to what happened this year with the exam results fiasco, which was very much a cautionary tale about the use of this.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to technologies. Amendment 83, from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to which I have added my name, seeks to improve how the Bill addresses new technologies which have significant potential for harm, and it aligns with and improves on the EU and US equivalents. The critical issue is: what is a medical device? Amendment 113, also from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, updates the definition of a medical device to bring it in line with the EU and US regulation, acknowledging the progress of technology beyond the Medical Devices Regulations 2002, which, in the world of programming, is very nearly the dark ages. I wonder if noble Lords remember ALGOL, FORTRAN and BASIC.
I support Amendment 83, to which I have added my name, and received a very helpful letter about Amendments 112 and 113 from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. I listened very carefully to both him and, of course, my noble friend. I am happy to support their arguments and their amendments.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg and Lord Clement-Jones, have done the Committee a great service today. I was fascinated by the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, which set the tone for this discussion. I welcome his main points and his knowledge. He knows that I am a supporter of his work in this area, particularly on the protection of patient data.
It is a constant source of concern that either through carelessness, lack of expertise, unscrupulousness or policy fragmentation, our NHS will not benefit from AI and the use of patient data. I see this amendment as part of that discussion and that effort to decide what happens. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has asked some very pertinent questions about algorithms, how they change and how they develop. Our job, surely, during the course of this Bill, is to find legislation that is ahead of the technology for once, not behind it. I was particularly struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has to say about GOQii and the MHRA, and the definition for medical devices and algorithms. The use of AI and algorithms is not impartial. We know that, particularly given our recent experience with A-levels, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.
The Minister has to find a way of ensuring that this Bill reflects the modern situation and does not stop innovation. I really hope that she is not going to say that those of us who are asking these questions are opposed to innovation, because that is absolutely not the case. These are very important questions indeed for the future, as we find ourselves between the FDA and the European Union, and we make our way in this particular world.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, all the amendments in this group deal with the important matter of forward-thinking regulation—regulation that evolves as technology evolves. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that all the questions raised in this debate are very pertinent and are pro-innovation, not anti-innovation questions, concerned with ensuring that we can regulate this area properly.
As my noble friend the Minister said in previous communication to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, artificial intelligence is already in use in medical device technology and is already regulated—for example, Babylon’s mobile application Healthcheck is software that provides a general health assessment to users. That application is registered as class 1 medical device by the MHRA. We are also working on equipping our regulator for these products. The MHRA secured £740,000 from the Regulators’ Pioneer Fund to work with NHS Digital on developing a pilot in order to test and validate algorithms and other AI used in medical devices. There are other works in train to get the benefit of artificial intelligence in the health service. The Artificial Intelligence Award is run by the Accelerated Access Collaborative in partnership with NHSX and the National Institute for Health Research. It is making £140 million available to accelerate the testing and evaluation of the most promising AI technologies that meet the strategic aims set out in the NHS Long Term Plan.
I recognise that the intention of Amendments 83, 112 and 113 is to address the potential to cause harm to patients without appropriate regulation of these technologies. I can reassure noble Lords that software used for the application of medical devices falls within the definition of a medical device under the EU medical device directive, transposed into UK law through the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. Artificial intelligence and algorithms are encompassed within the term “software” where they have a medical purpose, and I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, that this covers static and dynamic algorithms.
In addition, within 12 months of this Bill gaining Royal Assent, we will start to develop new medical device regulations. The development of these regulations will include a full consultation on any changes proposed. I can commit here that the consultation will conclude within 12 months and will include the definition of a medical device, with particular reference to algorithms and methodologies used for the interpretation of data and associated technical architecture used within medical devices. This process will allow members of the public, patients and industry bodies—as well as perhaps noble Lords in this Committee—to help shape the future of regulation in the UK and the terminology that we use to describe what is captured by those regulations.
The amendments are accordingly unnecessary, as the outcome sought will be achieved under the umbrella of the wider-scale review of medical devices regulation in the UK, which will take place during a similar window as that sought by the amendment and will address the specific questions that it raises. So I hope that I have reassured the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, that the existing definition covering both dynamic and static algorithms is sufficient and, if I have not, that he will take satisfaction from the Government’s commitment that, within 12 months, we will have concluded a consultation—to which I hope the noble Lord will contribute—that will include the definition of a medical device and specific reference to algorithms and methodologies used for interpretation of data.
This is an incredibly important debate. This is an emerging area of technology and, while we are reassured that the current regulations capture what they need to, we also need to look to the future, which is what the consultation can do. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I now call the noble Baroness.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness the Minister. This is such an important issue, with the potential for huge benefits and huge harms. I regard it slightly like the sort of issues we dealt with in relation to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and the Human Tissue Authority—this is very important and runs very deep into our humanity. So the question I need to ask the Minister is: when the consultation is over, will we be looking at primary legislation, because I am not sure that regulation will quite do?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the consultation will look at the specific issue of medical device regulation that takes place through secondary legislation. However, the noble Baroness is right in that this is not the only aspect of this issue that we are looking at and working on. There is work across government on a number of areas where this technology comes up, and we have established a number of bodies to help us in our work, such as the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. So, although the specific issue about the definition of a medical device and medical device regulations will take place under this Bill—subject to public consultation —there is a broader landscape that we will also address across the board and across government.
Lord Freyberg (CB)
My Lords, I first thank the Minister for her attentiveness during my very long and quite tortuous speech, and for the very detailed responses I have had, back and forth, from the Minister’s officials, which have been exceptionally helpful. They have been doing that over many days and many weeks. I also thank the other noble Lords who supported my amendment: the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. It was hugely welcome and I thank them for the contributions that they made.
I was fascinated by the fact that the Minister thought that it was both dynamic and static. That is not what I had understood from the letters, but I would like to look at that again. I will obviously follow her remarks in Hansard quite closely. Perhaps I could have further dialogue with her or the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, about that, because I am not entirely sure that that is how I have interpreted it—so I would like to come back on that, if I may.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I recall what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, said about the ongoing situation that faces those affected by sodium valproate and mesh. We do not want to be in a situation in years to come of not having something that adequately protects the public, and I worry that we are not getting to the root of this. So, while I am happy that the Minister has offered this review in 12 months’ time, I would like more information about that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
We come now to the group beginning with Amendment 86. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate.
Amendment 86
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to raise the issue of tracking of medical devices. Coupled with amendments by Baroness Finlay to page 8, line 17 and page 10, line 20, it would allow regulations to provide for the tracking of all devices via a Unique Device Identifier, as they are used, with the information recorded either in registries or through hospital episode statistics data.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 86, 88 and 102, standing in my name, and in support of Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.
My purpose in this group is to underscore the critical importance of unique device identifiers in maintaining patient safety. Fundamentally, I ask your Lordships to reflect on the systems we have in this country more broadly, say in retail, for product recall where a safety issue arises. Let us say that a tumble dryer is found to be a fire risk, or a washing machine is liable to flood people’s homes: it is dealt with by a media campaign urging people who have the product, with the relevant model number and bought at the relevant time, to contact their retailer and the manufacturer directly. We may examine, as the Fire Safety Bill presently before the House illustrates, whether this system is adequate for domestic electrical products, but that is for another day.
This afternoon, I hope that we can agree that devices left inside human beings and used in their medical treatment should be subject to a more rigorous and effective product recall system than tumble dryers. Tracking is absolutely essential in order to ensure that, if a product is discovered to be faulty or to have adverse effects of some kind, others who have had that device used in their treatment can be contacted and, if necessary, examined.
What is more, we already have the technology in place to make this a reality. In July this year, Scan4Safety published an evaluation of six pilot sites where a system of scanning and tracking was used. At these Scan4Safety sites, all patients have a unique GS1 barcode on their wristband, which is scanned before a procedure. The system also involves scanning all equipment used for the procedure, including implantable medical devices, and the location in which the procedure takes place. At some trusts, staff have barcodes on their badges that they can scan prior to a procedure. The result is full visibility of what has been done to which patient, when and where. To quote the noble Lord, Lord Prior, who as chair of NHS England wrote a foreword to the report, this system means:
“The time taken to recall products falls to hours from days or weeks, clinical time is freed up—significant as the NHS continues to face workforce challenges—and effective stock management becomes straightforward.”
The system is good both for patient safety—providing complete traceability, speed and accurate recall, alongside reductions in drug errors and those terrible “never events”—and for cost and efficacy. It leads to cost-effective product ordering, more efficient staff with better staff well-being, the creation of accurate patient-level costings, and reductions in unwarranted variation. Across the six trusts, the pilot produced £5 million in recurrent savings and £9 million in non-recurrent ones. Perhaps more importantly, the system is said to have released 140,000 hours of clinical time back to patient care.
The purpose of my amendments is to adduce from the Minister—who I hope will be willing to help—an absolute commitment that the Government see rolling out Scan4Safety as the future of medical device use in this country, and that we will not have devices put inside people without a clear record, including of which surgeon put in the device, when, where and so on. We will come back in the group starting with Amendment 87 and Amendment 95 to talk about registries that track outcomes. They are an absolutely essential part of this picture. However, the bare minimum for registries to function is to have a full and accurate database of what devices have been used in procedures, and on which patients.
Amendment 86 addresses this issue directly by stipulating that the provision about unique device identifiers—barcodes—must be included in regulations on medical devices made under Clause 12 of the Bill and should be part of the thinking when it comes to packaging and labelling. Amendment 102 seeks to strengthen the later Clause 16 by making the regulations about unique device identifiers mandatory.
I will briefly address Amendment 103 on patient consent. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and I are broadly aligned on this. Her report recognises the GDPR issues around recording data on patients and storing it in a database. She distinguishes between database, the subject of this group, and the registry, which is more complex and useful, and which we will discuss in a later group. There is an issue as to whether the database we are discussing here is subject to the same level of patient consent as a registry. In a registry, patient outcome data will be recorded, in addition to the simple fact of a device having been used. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s position on that, and I strongly support the idea in Amendment 103 that any distinction should be set out clearly in the regulations under this Bill.
For my own part, I would hope that the consent process and shared decision-making that are used between surgeons, radiologists and so on and their patients in deciding to go ahead with a procedure, could be used both to set out a routine action to make an entry in a database and to participate in more complex registries. We will examine the purpose of registries more thoroughly in subsequent groups. For this group, I hope that the Minister will respond by confirming a shared belief in Scan4Safety and set out a timetable for an equivalent scheme to be rolled out across the NHS. It is an approach which has the strong support of the Royal College of Surgeons and whose broad use around the country is long overdue.
I hope that the Minister will also ensure full consultation with the devolved Administrations to ensure that a system of coding is compatible with all systems across the UK. I beg to move.
Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who made a powerful case for knowing what happens to medical devices once they have been inserted. This was at the very centre of the Cumberlege review and to which I am sure my noble friend will draw our attention again, as well as to the key findings in this respect. Amendment 86 draws attention to the need for unique device identification information to be added to all packaging of medical devices, while Amendment 88 deals with the tracking of devices once inserted, as Clause 13(1)(h)(ii) requires information relating to the use of medical devices in individual procedures to be tracked and entered in a register or within hospital episode statistics data.
In my speech at Second Reading, I referred to Scan4Safety, which the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has just noted. In 2016, the Department for Health and Social Care awarded a total of £12 million to six hospital trusts in England for Scan4Safety demonstrator sites to investigate how the consistent use of point-of-care barcode scanning might improve efficiency and safety within the NHS. The noble Baroness also outlined the benefits of the GS1 barcodes. The result of the GS1 is a comprehensive, real-time view of stock, including that which is about to expire, as well as a complete audit trail. An audit trail is key to identifying problems with devices when they occur and to keep track of them in the future, as it may be many years before complications occur. Total hip replacements are one example. I have two of them, so I have a vested interest in knowing about the long-term future of those prostheses.
In June 2020, Scan4Safety published a report entitled A Scan of the Benefits. It gave two examples that are worthy of note and of repeating. In the North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust hospital orthopaedic department, barcodes helped to ensure that the correct patient is listed for the correct operation on the correct side. All items and implants are scanned before use. If the incorrect prosthesis is selected, for example a right knee implant for a patient who is supposed to be having an operation on the left knee, the barcode scanner buzzes and flashes, immediately notifying the potential error. At Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, following the introduction of Scan4Safety, the average time taken to recall a product has fallen from 8.33 days to less than 35 minutes. The organisation reported £84,411-worth of staff efficiency savings on recall between January 2016 to December 2017 alone.
In Clause 16 on information systems, while I welcome the provisions, surely they are worthy of being strengthened by not using “may” so often. We need to move away from “may”, and its implied “perhaps”, to “must” and the implication that it will actually happen.
I shall end by restating my comments at Second Reading. The Government must undertake to mandate the tracking of all medical devices that are used in the UK, rather than a select few. I hope that these amendments will provide a means to do so. The Cumberlege review rightly recommended that a central patient identifiable database should be created, collecting key details of the implantation of all devices at the time of the operation. In the light of this, we strongly urge the Government to apply the powers provided for in Clause 16 as well and as widely as possible.
To give assurances in the context of this amendment, the Royal College of Surgeons believes that the Government should publish their intended regulations under Clause 16 in draft before Report, as they have for the various regulations on medicines. Early sight of the regulations would establish whether the Government intend to apply the powers covered by Clause 16 widely enough to satisfy the recommendations of the Royal College of Surgeons and those of the Cumberlege review.
In closing, perhaps the Minister would update us on the future of the medical devices information system and its application to the private sector.
Baroness Cumberlege (Con) [V]
My Lords, I very much appreciate the support that I have already received today from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Lord Ribeiro. I am going to go into a bit of detail on what we found during the review, but I want to say to both noble Lords that I strongly support their views on Scan4Safety. Indeed, I spent a day in Derby going through the whole process with the clinicians, support staff and policymakers, and it was very impressive.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is absolutely right to say that we should look at more than just one example. Her research, which she has told us all about today, took on the six different areas, which is excellent. However, I agree with her that we should think seriously about introducing this system across the country.
Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]
My Lords, I add my voice to those of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, on their Amendments 86, 88 and 102, about having unique identifiers for medical devices. In these days of barcodes, this should not be too difficult nor add much, if any, cost for the manufacturers. Indeed, it has been proved to work with medical devices, as the noble Baroness explained.
It is important that products found to be faulty are speedily traced. If my digital radio can be recalled speedily because it might burst into flames, surely a medical device implanted in someone’s body must also be able to be recalled speedily. Recall could also be useful when something better comes along; it could be vital for the future treatment of the patient.
There are occasions when an individual product develops a fault, although the majority of products of that model are perfectly okay. If we are to learn lessons and improve products, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has just pointed out, it would be essential to know where they are and how the receiving patient has reacted to them. A unique identifier could facilitate that, and also provide some protection for the patient concerned, especially in the case of a recall.
I look forward to the Minister’s answers to the questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, asked about patient consent. It is vital that patients have confidence in the system. Confidence in their own privacy is part of that, and patients can have that confidence only if they know what is being shared, and by whom.
Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am pleased to speak to this group of amendments, and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, who has been so diligent in her review in proposing such needed changes, and making good for the recipient and building user confidence in the devices offered. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro—as well, of course, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.
I spoke on Second Reading in support of an extensive programme for medical devices, to provide for high standards of safety and to share vital information, with data central to effectiveness. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in her review, regarded being able to track which treatments and implants people have had as being of particular importance. A barcoded wristband, with equipment used in treatment, including implantable medical devices, being scanned and tracked to a patient’s record, would save much precious time for product recalls, and reduce drug errors.
This means knowing who has had a device used in their treatment, so that they can be swiftly notified if there is a problem. Having unique device identification is therefore very important. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, said—and I agree—that we must consider tracking all medical devices used in the UK, rather than a select few.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, we support the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, and Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. Registers are a tool that helps clinicians to track devices and those who have the devices fitted or implanted, and to use the data for research and to aid patients to seek redress.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, explained clearly how the amendment would work to help to change a medical device that no longer functions. By citing the recall mechanism for a faulty domestic product, she illustrated what is required of a device register.
The amendments in this group relate to the tracking of medical devices, and the information stored. Amendments 86, 88 and 102 would allow regulations to provide for the tracking of all devices, as they are used, via a unique device identifier, with the information recorded either in registries or through hospital episode statistics data.
Amendment 103 is an important amendment, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that seeks to clarify which information held by the healthcare system requires the consent of the relevant patient. Data is powerful, and should be kept appropriately. The governance of data has been a key issue in the NHS for more than 20 years.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I have greatly appreciated this debate, the expertise, and the explanations we have been given as to why the amendments are important. I particularly enjoyed the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, about his hips: very important they are indeed.
Perhaps we should remind ourselves that Clause 16 was inserted in the Bill during the Commons stages after a cross-party effort involving the Labour Front Bench working with the Government. It provides for a data system to be set up by regulations to assist in tracking devices once they are implanted, so that safety performance and clinical effectiveness can be better monitored. The intention is that in the long term, that would support future device registries, allowing problems to be spotted earlier and patient harm to be prevented.
The amendments would tighten up that clause. The amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, are concerned with the operation of the tracker, using the devices’ unique identification. Currently, Clause 16 provides that unique device identifiers “may” be recorded as part of the data system. Quite rightly, the amendment would change that “may” to a “must”. So much of our work revolves around changing “may” to “must”.
Amendments 86 and 88 would amend Clause 13. Amendment 86 would require that UDIs should be considered as part of the packaging information on medical devices, and Amendment 88 would require that tracking devices used in individual procedures should be part of the Government’s consideration when regulating device registries. These amendments raise questions about the detail of device tracking. How will the unique identifiers be recorded and used? Those questions were raised by both the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Cumberlege. Will it be mandatory to record the unique device identifier in every procedure, and feed that into the data system? How can we ensure that that data is secure, and that it is recorded in the appropriate place? The Minister has those questions to answer at the end of the debate.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, rightly addressed the issue of patient consent. She also underlined the fact that there is an opportunity in the Bill to get the law and the framework right. Amendment 103 would add to Clause 16 a requirement that the regulations must specify what information held by a data system is subject to a patient’s consent. The intention is that data held under the system should be used and shared to identify trends and trigger regulatory and clinical action where it is needed.
In her report, the noble Baroness cites the difference between a database and a registry. She is right to do so. The amendments explore the importance of the registry and the database, and the importance of patient consent —and whether we return to the subject at a later stage will depend on what the Minister now has to say.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I am enormously grateful for that really important discussion of these critical amendments and provisions. I will take a moment to run through them in some detail. Device safety is absolutely critical to patient safety, and that is why the Government amended the Bill to include Clause 16. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, whose team helped inspire that amendment, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who has participated in discussions on this clause. We have the benefit of her insight now.
Amendment 86 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, would add the unique device identifier number to the provisions in Clause 13(1)(g). These provisions currently allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about package labelling, provision of information and instructions for medical devices. UDIs would be one of the matters included within regulations made in reliance on Clause 13(1)(g), as drafted. It is therefore our belief that the amendment is not necessary.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Lord Ribeiro made important and fascinating remarks on Scan4Safety. I will limit my comments, which could be extensive, to the importance and value of that scheme. We are extremely supportive of the principle of fast and accurate traceability. Scan4Safety is not the only scheme of its kind, but it is a particularly good one. It is the hope that any UDI created by these regulations will empower these valuable services. We have a session on medical device information systems coming up in the diary, when I hope very much that we can discuss how that might work. If the concern of the noble Baroness is whether we intend to make provision to require manufacturers to provide a UDI, I reassure her that that would be a condition for being placed in the UK market.
Amendment 88 to Clause 13, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has indicated, is intended to support the tracking of devices used in medical procedures by recording the UDI in a register provided for in Clause 13 or within hospital episode statistics. I completely acknowledge the noble Baroness’s intent, but there is a difference between a register at Clause 13 and a database at Clause 16, or a registry. Clause 13 provides for a register or a number of registers. The register or registers we intend to create under Clause 13 will be a list of medical devices for sale on the UK market, held by the MHRA. It will not include the individual product identifier part of the UDIs and it will not contain data or monitoring information related to individual devices. The register forms part of wider market surveillance and vigilance activity. Regulations will be able to make provision requiring information to be entered into a register, such as the unique device identifier, which all manufacturers will be required to put on their devices. Amendment 88 is therefore unnecessary.
While the registers will enable some device identification to track individual devices, it is the information system, created under regulations made under Clause 16, which will ensure that devices and procedures are tracked in the event of a concern being identified, through which patients can be contacted and appropriate action taken in each case. The use of MDIS, which I will come on to, could prompt the MHRA to use the information in the register established under Clause 13 to identify the manufacturer and take action.
Amendment 102 would add information to be recorded in any information systems established under Clause 16. All the information set out in Amendment 102 can already be required under regulations made under Clause 16, but the regulations do not have to set out all those matters and can set out other descriptions of information.
A UDI may not always be available, such as for a custom-made device, so it may not always be possible for the providers to capture this. Amendment 102 would also require the recording of every procedure that related to a medical device. I have spoken before about the number of different medical devices on the market and that they vary greatly in risk profile. It would not be necessary or cost-effective to record every procedure related to a medical device, but they could be recorded in one of the registers provided for by regulations under Clause 12, as being on the UK market.
Amendment 103 in the name of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege deals with the important issue of patient consent. It would introduce an obligation that regulations made under Clause 16 would require the Secretary of State to set out the categories or types of information that are subject to patient consent that are held by the Health and Social Care Information Centre, otherwise known as NHS Digital, or by other persons.
My noble friend has raised this with me and with officials, and she is a tireless champion of patients. I am moved and affected by the accounts she has heard. As the testimony in her review shows, the absence of data in the healthcare system is absolutely medieval, and it is exactly the purpose of the Bill to fix that. Before any data can be collected relying on the provisions at Clause 16, regulations must be made. Those regulations are subject to consultation, as at Clause 41. It is absolutely right that the system is informed by patient views, and that the process is one where it is easy to engage, to understand what we want to do and to build consensus that it is the right thing.
My noble friend Lady Cumberlege has views on what data should be subject to opt-out versus opt-in. Privacy is a higher-order value that we should protect. The question of patient consent is really important. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, campaigned on the importance of opt-out organ donation and I congratulate her on her contribution to the recent change to organ donation privacy protocols, which are widely supported by the public and will save thousands of lives. She knows as well as I do that choosing to opt into measures is not as comprehensive as choosing to opt out. It is important to have enough data to draw conclusions.
Consent will not be required to input information about the surgical procedure and the UDI of the implanted device, linked to the patient, into the information system. The medical device information system is about protecting all patients who have had similar procedures, not just a particular patient. The detail of the specific device inserted, the procedure information and, if necessary, the effect that device has caused is what will be necessary for the information system to work. If there is no adverse report made by the clinician on behalf of that patient, that data acts as a control sample. It allows for other patients’ reports, where there have also been adverse reactions, to be understood as part of a wider data picture.
In her report, my noble friend raised the recommendation that detailed data should require consent in order that the data collected is necessary and proportionate. I reassure her that all data collected for the system will be necessary and proportionate. Data held by clinicians should be shared only under those circumstances, and data shared by the information system with, for example, a clinical registry for clinical assessment of whether there is an issue, should be only that which is necessary.
The intention is, that in the event there is a reported adverse reaction with a device, the medical device information system would send a report to a clinical registry. That report, suitably anonymised and stripped of patient-identifiable information but including the device UDI, would have the detail of all procedures, not just those involving adverse reactions, to further anonymise the incident. A clinical assessment would be conducted and, if it is concluded that the device is the issue, only relevant and necessary information would be sent to the MHRA to conduct its own tests.
This is a very important paragraph and one that I will emphasise. We do not need patient-identifiable information to determine whether compliance or enforcement action needs to be taken, but device information. There are routes to identifying that there are issues with adverse reactions when a clinical registry is not present, such as manufacturers’ reports or Yellow Card reports.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on whom I now call.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
Can the Minister run it by me again how this will protect patients? I heard a lot being said about physicians and their reporting. I am not sure that I understand how this will avoid the problems with valproate and all the other situations with mesh unless “must” is used rather than “may”.
Lord Bethell (Con)
I can give a couple of illustrative examples if that would be helpful, but to run through the whole philosophy and system is probably beyond my ability or the time afforded by this Committee. In essence, the challenge identified by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege is that individual reports of adverse signals are not easily connected, unless those reports are somehow sent to a central registry and analysed by the kinds of experts who can spot mistakes and the connections made between those signals. This is how any problem identification system works. To do that process, you do not have to share personal details. You do not need the telephone numbers or personal identities of those concerned, but you need the clinical details and the full context in which signals have occurred. This pattern identification is often missing in the instances on which my noble friend reported. Having this information system, and analysis connected to it, will enable us to spot problems at a much earlier stage. Necessary interventions based on analysis and understanding will be much prompter and the connections made much more emphatic.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)[V]
I am incredibly grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It has been very important and illuminating. We will all need to read the Minister’s words with care because there was an awful lot in them. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for asking about the private sector, because if procedures are done in the private sector for patients who pay for themselves and those procedures are outsourced more and more, it will be important to make sure that this safety data is collected.
I am surprised that the word “must” is not being picked up. A supermarket will know how many tubs of mayonnaise it has ordered and which factory they came from. If there is glass in jam, a supermarket can track it back to the factory where the glass was. If we do not have complete data collection systems, we will find that all the places that are functioning above average will do really well. They will collect the data properly, and so on. But 50% of places are below the average line—that is the nature of an average. All patients need to be protected and standards need to be driven up. I was grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley, Lady Redfern and Lady Jolly, for elaborating on aspects of points that I have made, and particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for giving us the history of the amendment and asking again how this would work in practice.
Consent is critical. Patients going into a hospital expect all the equipment to be safe and to be known about. They expect the fire alarms to work and that the oxygen pipes to anaesthetic machines are correctly positioned and known about, and that full servicing data is available. It is important. Here I should declare that I was a very junior doctor in a hospital, but on the periphery, when an anaesthetic accident happened many years ago. It was critical that things could be traced back urgently. Unfortunately, there are tragedies, even when it is possible to do that.
We need to be able to look right across the whole system. There is the safety aspect—the tracking and quality control—that goes along with all the routine procedures. If something faulty is used in 15 hospitals around the country, that needs to be known rapidly and safely. I, too, worry about relying on clinicians to report if there is a problem, and I rather felt that the Minister’s answer underlined the call for a distinct commissioner for safety. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has been calling for that because we need somebody who can interrogate and analyse the data, and look at it carefully. She explained consent for patient details extremely well. The Montgomery test of consent is that you should be given the information that other reasonable people would expect. It is almost the Clapham omnibus test of what patients should be told.
This is not about what the clinicians want or do not want to tell patients. They might feel it unnecessary to tell them something, but most patients would want to know about it and therefore it should be disclosed to patients. A doctor might say, “This can happen, but it has never happened to me”, but they still have a duty to disclose. Linked to that consent, I would like us to have routine processes in clinical practice for consent data to be entered into a registry. Patients could opt out and say that they did not want it to be entered, so that box would not be ticked; their scanned-in data would then not be sent on with the additional information.
This debate has been incredibly important. It gets right to the nub of patient safety. I hope that the Minister will meet me and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. I have to say to the Committee that I am pretty convinced that we will return to this on Report because there is a lot more to do. However, we have another group of amendments to move on to, and that debate will be interesting and informative, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
We now come to Amendment 91A. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I beg the indulgence of the Committee for just a moment because I have a horrible feeling that I have lost my place. I had thought that we were moving to Amendment 95. Perhaps the chair would be kind enough to set me right on that.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I propose that we adjourn for five minutes.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, the Committee will now resume and I call again on the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to move her Amendment 91A.
Amendment 91A
“Innovative Medical Devices Fund
In section 261 of the National Health Service Act 2006, after subsection (9) insert—“(9A) The Secretary of State must make a scheme to promote the availability of innovative medical devices for human use within the National Health Service and must provide monies paid to the Secretary of State under subsection (9) for the benefit of that scheme to be known as the “Innovative Medical Devices Fund”.”
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I am most grateful for the kindness of all your Lordships. Lacking having all those wonderful papers in front of me really showed. It is the first time that I have missed walking into the Chamber with a large stack of papers.
Amendment 91A builds on the concept that we had in the previous debates of an innovative medicines fund, which had been carefully thought through, including how it was to be financed. It struck me then that we have fantastic potential in medical engineering in this country to develop new and innovative medical devices. I should declare an interest because my son is involved in developing devices for use in cardiology, for oblation procedures and so on.
The real issue, as the Minister pointed out in the previous debate, is about developing a piece of equipment which is a custom-made device, for one reason or another. When that happens it can turn out to be, serendipitously, something that solves a problem for clinicians in undertaking a procedure of some sort. However, when that happens, if it is a small clinical team in a district general hospital, it will not be linked into a commercial enterprise and funding its ongoing development is extremely difficult.
In previous debates, I referred to the investment that went on in Ireland—in Galway—to create an innovation hub and ensure that there is investment in innovation. This amendment would allow the Government to explore having a medical devices fund similar to an innovative medicines fund, and would allow that fund to be used to develop a device and test and trial it within the NHS, with it being available to NHS patients and clinicians much more rapidly than the current procedures require. It does not in any way suggest that the usual ethical approval processes and all the checks that go with it should be curtailed; it would simply be a way of making sure that, where a custom-made device that solves a major problem could be rolled out widely, it can be used for the benefit of UK plc, if you like to call it that. It would make sure that we have that investment, and that the clinicians do not have to give it away for the whole thing to be developed commercially elsewhere and then sold back to the NHS at huge cost. I again express my gratitude to the Committee and I beg to move.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for tabling and moving this amendment for a number of reasons, the first of which is that it allows me to express my appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for moving Amendment 28, in his name and mine, last week on the innovative medicines fund and to say how much I welcomed the debate on it, which I have read, and the Minister’s response.
I am also grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his subsequent letter about the innovative medicines fund. There is of course a direct parallel in that Amendment 91A would look for the innovative medical devices fund to be funded in a similar way. I just gently dispute one proposition with my noble friend: he said that the use of the rebate on the voluntary pharmaceuticals access scheme would not be appropriate for the innovative medicines fund because the amounts could vary sharply from one year to the next. This would be a problem only if there were a direct hypothecation for the amount, and that is not necessarily implied. The amount of the innovative medicines fund could be established as a fixed amount that would then be funded by the rebate or, in the absence of a rebate, by the Exchequer or though NHS England’s total budget. It would not necessarily rise or fall with the rebate. The same would of course be true for the innovative medical devices fund.
There is a central proposition that supports both an innovative medicines fund and a medical devices fund; it is not that we in the United Kingdom lack innovation, it is that we lack the adoption of innovation in the National Health Service. That was the starting point for the Cancer Drugs Fund, on which this proposition is based. The Cancer Drugs Fund arose, in policy terms, from an analysis by Professor Mike Richards, who was then the cancer tsar under the last Labour Government, that there was a significant lack of availability of the latest cancer medicines for cancer patients, compared with other, principally European, countries. At the time that was not true for some other disease groups and medicine available for other diseases. It was a problem particular to cancer.
Why does this happen? It is not simply about funding; there is a systematic issue here, separate from the amount of resource, which is that the United Kingdom has a single-payer system. A single-payer system necessarily makes decisions about the availability of medicines on the basis of the whole system moving together. I suspect the same is true for devices. Pretty much all of the other European systems are not single-payer systems, but insurance-based systems, where, essentially, clinicians advise, patients choose and insurers pay. That brings innovations into use much more rapidly. There is potentially a problem with the diffusion of innovation in the NHS, which we have seen before and we have to continually guard against.
I put this question to the Minister for when he responds to this debate: are patients in the NHS getting access to new, effective medical devices as quickly as patients in other countries? I do not know the answer to that. I am absolutely clear that there was a good case for the Cancer Drugs Fund. I am clear that there is a continuing need for the innovative medicines fund, because there is sometimes a continuing gap between the availability of the most effective new medicines here and in other countries. I do not know about devices.
To this extent I offer an apology to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, because a medical devices fund might be premature, in the sense that we do not know to what extent there is a gap in the adoption or diffusion of innovation where medical devices are concerned. We identified real potential in the previous debate on Amendment 85 about the funding mandate for medical devices. If that is rolled out, as I think is the intention, and extended to a faster and larger pipeline of medical devices going through the NICE evaluation process, then we may find there is not too much of a problem. There may well be a case for understanding to what extent medical devices are being adopted by the NHS, relative to other health economies. I hope the Minister will agree that is worth looking at.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to speak to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. Because this is about devices, I should remind the Committee that I am president of GS1 UK, the barcoding association, and chair of the advisory board of TenX Health.
I thought the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, posed a very interesting question about whether NHS patients have less access to innovative new medical devices than those in other European countries. My gut feeling is that they do, but I agree that the more information we can obtain the better so that we can debate whether the fund that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, proposed is a good way forward. On the face of it, I think it is. We have a situation in this country that is rather the case for medicines, where we have a very important health technology and medical devices sector. The ABHI informed me recently that the health technology industry employs over 127,000 people, generating a turnover of £24 billion. That is very substantial.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, would require the Secretary of State to introduce a scheme to promote the availability of innovative medical devices for human use within the NHS. The scheme would be known as the NHS innovative medical devices fund.
The Secretary of State is charged with providing the funding and I welcome that approach. She has explained that custom-made devices are both difficult and expensive to fund, especially for the subsequent development of innovative devices with repeated trials. It can also be frustrating. A medical devices fund could take an innovation from concept through its development to production and then be rolled out widely, with any gains being returned to the fund or to the NHS organisation hosting the work. Clearly, flesh needs to be put on to those bones, but as I explained in an earlier Committee session, there is a fund that is particular to orthopaedics which is managed by a charity. In effect, every year it calls for bids, often from start-ups. It supports a certain number of the bids and any profits come back to the charity, which can also choose to be a partner in the venture. Some of the bids come from academia and others from within the NHS, but it works.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
This amendment is interesting and certainly worthy of consideration. The innovative medical devices fund would insert a new subsection into the National Health Service Act 2006. Section 261 provides powers for the Secretary of State in relation to voluntary schemes to control the cost of medicines. The section describes these as schemes that are joined voluntarily and limit the price that may be charged on the profits that may accrue from the manufacture and supply of health service medicines. The scheme also provides for manufacturers and suppliers to pay the Secretary of State an amount of money if the agreed limits are breached. Amendment 91A would create a voluntary scheme under Section 261 which would be specifically for medical devices to give them equal treatment as innovative medicines. The Minister will have to explain why that would not be a good idea.
In her speech at Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, talked about making the UK a medical devices development and production hub. Too often the UK effort has been bought out by overseas manufacturers who then market the devices back to the NHS at great profit.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 91A seeks to replicate the innovative medicines fund with a comparable fund for medical devices called the innovative medical devices fund. We have had a terrific debate on this. The ideas and insights shared by noble Lords have been extremely powerful, but perhaps I may address the points in turn.
The goal that is shared wholeheartedly by the Government is that we recognise the huge benefits that medical devices can deliver. My noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, put that particularly well. We recognise the astonishing pace of innovation and development that is creating new healthcare options for patients across the UK. In fact, that is one of the reasons we are considering this Bill. We are extremely ambitious and are determined to capitalise on the opportunities presented by new medical technologies to ensure that the best innovations are adopted and spread across the NHS.
Devices, like medicines, are key to ensuring patient health, but they are different and it is not necessarily helpful to use a system that was developed for medicines to be used for devices. For example, the primary purpose of the innovative medicines fund is to cover the cost of managed access agreements where NICE feels that there is insufficient evidence to give a positive opinion and asks for further evidence to be collected before the product is re-evaluated.
Devices are not assessed by NICE in the same way and we do not consider that mirroring the provisions for medicines would necessarily be beneficial. In particular, unlike medicines where, once licensed, they do not change, medical devices are constantly evolving. New iterations of medical devices are developed quickly, their impact on patients changes, often rendering earlier iterations completely obsolete within relatively short periods of time. That gives rise to the potential for funding mandates to be in place for devices that are no longer the best or most cost-effective in their category. Requiring the mandatory purchase of all but the most innovative devices by commissioners would not be a sensible use of NHS funds. We therefore need to find different systems of process to ensure that innovative and effective devices, along with other medical technologies such as digital, find their way to the NHS and to patients.
That is why we have boosted the remit of the Accelerated Access Collaborative. It will bring together leaders from across Government, the NHS, regulators and industry to address the underlying challenges that delay patient access and uptake.
As chairman of the AAC, the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, has been able to bring his world-leading expertise to bear to deliver a host of successes in recent years. Indeed, almost 750,000 patients have benefited from access to AAC-supported innovations in recent years, including more than 315,000 patients who have accessed new technologies supported through the innovative technology payment programme. The AAC is going further to deliver the commitment in the NHS Long Term Plan to accelerate the uptake of proven, affordable innovations with the introduction of a new medtech funding mandate. The mandate will ensure that all patients have faster access to selected cost-saving devices, diagnostics and digital products approved by NICE, via medical technologies guidance and, when available, NICE diagnostic guidance for innovations.
The final criteria to be used in the mandate will be announced in the consultation response to be published in December this year, and the mandate will take effect from April 2021. Additional steps are being taken to ensure that the mandate translates to front-line improvements in patient access. The NHS standard contract has already been updated to state that the relevant parties must comply with their obligations under the mandate guidance, and technologies receiving the mandate will benefit from dedicated support via the regional academic health sciences network to help drive local adoption and spread.
NICE also recognises the need to ensure its methods for assessing innovative medical technologies continue to support our ambition for the NHS to provide world-leading care that delivers value to patients and the NHS. The NICE methods review is therefore under way, with extensive input from industry and patient representative groups. The consultation on the case for change to existing NICE methodology is open until 18 December, and I encourage all those interested to submit their views.
Finally, it is also important to note that in her amendment the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, stated that moneys should be paid to the Secretary of State under Section 261(9) of the National Health Service Act 2006 in order to support an innovative medical devices fund scheme. However, Section 261 of the National Health Service Act relates only to voluntary schemes agreed with pharmaceutical manufacturers which control the prices charged, or profits accrued, by manufacturers and suppliers of health service medicines. The vast majority of medical devices would not therefore be within the scope of such a scheme.
I trust that I have been able to reassure the noble Baroness that the funding of medical device technology in the NHS in England is of great importance to the Government and that we are actively putting in place mechanisms to support it. On this basis, I hope very much that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for contributing to this debate. There were a couple of comments that I would like to come back on.
The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, asked whether there was evidence of the slow adoption of innovation. I have a series of different case studies that I will happily share with him. I shall highlight one. Cytosponge had a 19-year journey from when it was thought of to when it was adopted. It is estimated that it saves 7,190 QALYs having now gone through NICE. Companies do not feel incentivised to develop low-cost devices in this country.
Another example is the CoMICs study on conventional versus minimally invasive extra-corporeal circulation in patients undergoing cardiac surgery, which compared two types of bypass machines. The difficulties there resulted in most of the study going abroad and being conducted elsewhere. Our development of robotics has been impressive, but we have huge competition from the US market, in particular in device development.
So I suggest that we need to look at a way of making sure that we can develop devices. I accept that this amendment as worded may not be right for this Bill at this time, but I hope that we will not lose sight of the need to innovate. I would like to come back on Report to the concept of provisional licensing as a way of getting new and innovative devices through the system rapidly, possibly without burdening the NHS with the financial bureaucracy that this amendment might cause. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)
We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 94A. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate.
Amendment 94A
Lord Field of Birkenhead
“Requirement to make regulations concerning medicinal cannabis and associated devices
(1) The appropriate authority must by regulations amend the law relating to medicinal cannabis and devices used to administer medicinal cannabis.(2) Regulations under subsection (1) must establish criteria for the licensing of cannabis medicines and medical devices.(3) In making regulations under subsection (1), the appropriate authority must have regard to—(a) the safety of medicinal cannabis;(b) the availability of medicinal cannabis;(c) international evidence of the efficacy of cannabis medicines.”
Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)
My Lords, I wish, with a straight bat, to move this amendment standing in my name and in the names of my noble friends. Looking at the names of those who will be contributing to this debate, I willingly admit that I probably know least about this subject—although, in declaring an interest, I probably bring a knowledge which most of your Lordships do not have. I use cannabis. My spine is breaking up. I have tried all the traditional painkillers, but they were worse than what they were actually trying to deal with. So I am not somebody who embraced cannabis as a first option; I was driven to it because no other traditional painkillers helped.
It is important to say what I am not asking for. I am not asking for a free-for-all for people who wish to use cannabis for recreational purposes. I understand their case, although I do not share it. Others may wish to use other opportunities to move that interest. I do not. Nor am I—or the other noble Lords who have signed this amendment—asking for a random control trial. We are asking for something much subtler. This medicine helps people and relieves pain, and it is the relief of pain that I wish this debate to concentrate on.
I am no snake oil salesman. I am not here to claim—on behalf of my fellow citizens who suffer, for example, from Parkinson’s or cancer—that this is a miracle cure. I am not arguing that. I know a number of people with Parkinson’s or cancer who have been helped by this, and their lives possibly extended. But in this amendment I am concentrating merely on how to relieve pain. In proposing the new clause, I am really making a plea to the Government to renew past conversations about how we might equalise access to cannabis in this country where people are totally concerned with controlling pain. Clearly—and rather appropriately, given the previous set of amendments—the new clause concerns itself with the devices by which cannabis can be delivered to a patient. Above all, it is a plea to change the schedule within which the drug sits, so that—if they so wish—GPs can prescribe this painkilling drug.
I do not know how many times others have been able to speak in a cannabis debate with your Lordships knowing that the person speaking is actually using that drug. My plea is, very simply, that there are pains that traditional painkillers cannot reach and there is considerable evidence that in those circumstances, when all the traditional painkillers have been tried, cannabis can sometimes work.
What is so unfair is that under the present arrangements, I can pay for my cannabis. There are huge numbers of other people, probably in greater pain than I, who cannot buy cannabis, as I do, within the law as a painkiller. I am therefore moving the amendment with its proposed new clause as a plea to the Government, on behalf of all of us who suffer pain in varying degrees and have tried the traditional methods of pain relief. Where that has failed—it often makes one even more ill than when one started to take those painkillers— we have found some redress in cannabis.
As a user and beneficiary, I hope that I therefore speak on behalf of many of my fellow citizens who get relief for their pain from cannabis. I wish to equalise access to cannabis in the way that I have benefited, so that others might too. I beg to move.
Baroness Meacher (CB)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Field, who has knowledge that I do not have. I have never used cannabis, but he has made a powerful statement as a user.
The regulations affecting the production of prescription and medical cannabis are incredibly unhelpful. They result in about 1 million people—very sick, disabled people—accessing medical cannabis illegally, usually from the criminal market, although some go to Europe to access medicine for either themselves or their children. Although cannabis medicines have been legalised, most such people simply cannot get access to them. It just is not there for them at all.
Under the regulations in place at present, cannabis medicines are unlicensed—they are known as specials. This means that only consultants can prescribe them, on the basis that if there is a problem—it is extremely unlikely that there would be any problem with medical cannabis—the consultant has to take personal responsibility for having prescribed that medicine. The trouble is that doctors have not been trained in this complex group of medicines. The cannabis plant contains about 540 phytochemicals: 144 known as cannabinoids, 200 terpenes and 20 flavonoids have been identified so far. Maybe there will be more; I do not know.
Different mixes of these phytochemicals alleviate the symptoms for patients with a wide range of conditions. The noble Lord, Lord Field, concentrated on pain, and fibromyalgia is a particular type of pain, which apparently responds well to this. But there is also Crohn’s disease, treatment-resistant epilepsies, PTSD, Parkinson’s and an incredible number of others. I think that Germany approves medical cannabis for something like 40 conditions, which is extraordinary.
Not surprisingly, consultants have been very reluctant to prescribe medical cannabis. Only 204 prescriptions have been written in the two years since medical cannabis has been legalised, and only 10 within the NHS. It is pretty disastrous in terms of the regulations and it is essential that a way is found to license high-quality medical cannabis for the alleviation of symptoms for a specified list of conditions.
The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency generally insists on random controlled double-blind trials, and I very much support that gold standard for the great majority of medicines. However, medical cannabis medicines are different from almost anything else I can think of, in part because in general—certainly until now—they claim only to alleviate symptoms. At this point they do not claim to be a cure, although there is some interesting current research on the curative potential of cannabis. But we will not talk about that now. Also, cannabis has been used as a medicine for thousands of years; I do not think there is any other medicine quite like it. A million patients use it today, and can provide evidence of its efficacy, minimal side effects and safety. Many patients have used it over many years, so I argue strongly that cannabis medicines are in a really different position from other medicines.
There are a considerable number of studies across the world that clearly show the efficacy and safety of medical cannabis. In 2017 the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine published a great volume called The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids, a review of global research into the efficacy of cannabis medicines. It concluded:
“There is substantial evidence that cannabis is an effective treatment for chronic pain in adults.”
Why is this not taken seriously?
Until now the MHRA has been unwilling to consider that and much more international research. Bedrocan products have been widely used in Europe for more than 20 years, greatly benefiting patients. If the Government did nothing else but allow Bedrocan products to be approved in this country, that would be of enormous benefit to a huge number of patients. High-quality products are now available in the US, Latin America, Canada and many other countries across the world. Outcome data is available from Columbia Care, for example, but also from many other organisations, universities and so on.
Not only do the regulations place medical cannabis in the “specials” category, they also complicate the import and production processes, adding considerable costs to the medicines. The situation cannot, in my view, be justified. It creates criminals out of completely law-abiding incredibly sick and disabled people. It wastes police, court and prison time, and considerable sums of taxpayers’ money—and, indeed, NHS resources. Most important of all, it is ruining the lives of many of our most vulnerable citizens.
I am in touch with GW, the pharmaceutical company that has produced the only cannabis medicines licensed in this country. I hope to work with GW, and I have a meeting with its representatives—next week, I think. They understand the problem. Epidyolex, trialled by GW, is a single cannabinoid medicine. GW spent many years and hundreds of millions of pounds undertaking the double-blind trials of Epidyolex and, understandably, wants a return on its investment. I have huge sympathy with it.
Since that work started, research in other countries has shown that a single cannabinoid medicine is suboptimal for many treatment-resistant epileptic children. The evidence tells us that it helps 43% of children with two particular variants of epilepsy, and the reduction in symptoms is only 50%. I sincerely want Epidyolex to succeed. It may be the right drug for some children. However, more recent research internationally has shown that some children given whole plant products can achieve up to 100% improvement, with minimal side-effects .The evidence available justifies regulation changes to enable very sick patients to benefit from cannabis medicines, which patients say alleviate their symptoms more effectively and with substantially fewer side-effects, than prescribed medications, as the noble Lord, Lord Field, has told us from personal experience.
We genuinely wish GW well, and we are privileged to be in discussions with it to try to find a way forward that will benefit patients and work for pharmaceutical companies, while upholding the high standards of safety and efficacy for which this country is renowned. At a recent virtual meeting with our highly valued Minister and the CEO of the MHRA, I was encouraged to see that the CEO also recognised the need to discuss a possible way to increase access to cannabis medicines for patients who benefit significantly from them.
The aim of the amendment is to initiate a discussion with Ministers, alongside discussions with officials and experts, about how to remove the umpteen hurdles within the regulations which prevent patient access to cannabis medicines. We hope through these discussions to find a way forward, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]
My Lords, I heartily support the noble Lord, Lord Field, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. I thank the noble Lord for his important evidence, and congratulate the noble Baroness on her many years of energetic campaigning on this matter. Noble Lords may know that I too have campaigned long and hard for medicinal cannabis projects, that have been proved to be safe and effective, to be prescribed on the NHS for UK patients. When the Home Office changed the status of medicinal cannabis two years ago, many of us thought that, given the mass of evidence that there are many such safe and effective products in widespread use abroad, such medicines would become available free to UK patients. That has turned out not to be so. Although some expert clinicians are prescribing them for appropriate patients—including the noble Lord, Lord Field—in a private capacity at high cost, very few patients have received their medicine free on the NHS. Why is this? It seems that it is because NICE has not approved them because there have not been any random controlled double-blind trials. Therefore, several health trusts are forbidding consultants who want to prescribe these medicines to do so, on pain of losing their jobs.
There are children with intractable epilepsy in this country whose lives have been saved by the medicines, for which their parents have had to fundraise. The lives of some of those children have been put at risk because the coronavirus has prevented that fundraising, and they suffered serious preventable fits. Many of these children have been treated with approved pharmaceutical medicines that have never been approved for use with children and have serious side effects. That is why we need a proper regulatory framework based on the full cadre of available evidence, which this amendment proposes. It will not be difficult to establish the safety of these medicines, as required by subsection 3(a). If those making the regulations are allowed to take into account the health records of people who have already been taking these medicines, and also the vast amount of evidence from other developed countries which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has listed, that will subsection 3(c). Subsection 3(b) requires that availability be considered when making the regulations. These medicines are readily available. Indeed, a lot of them are being made in this country and exported because they cannot be sold here. How mad is that? Nor are they expensive as medicines go, and the NHS can bulk buy at a discount anyway.
In order to satisfy those who do not trust evidence from other countries—although why is beyond me—we also need to collect data from UK patients who are managing to get cannabis medicines in order to provide the information required by NICE, but there is no system in place to do that. Will the Minister say why the NHS Commissioning through Evaluation system is not being used? It is a well-established and approved system that collects patient data and clinician observation on the use of novel medicines and treatments. It strikes me that, given that cannabis medicine’s illegal status made it impossible to collect much UK data before 2018, it would be an ideal candidate for this trusted method of evaluation. Finally, I would welcome the Minister’s response to this suggestion.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)
I call the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. Lord Norton? We will move to call the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and come back to the noble Lord, Lord Norton if we have time. I call the noble Lord, Lord Patel.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
My Lords, I will need to speak only very briefly because the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Walmsley, have covered the ground extensively, fully and informatively. It is a privilege to be involved in an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Field of Birkenhead. We have been friends, discussing such issues for very many years, although he was in a different House, so it is a pleasure to see him and support his amendment.
My noble friend Lord Field spoke from personal experience, and my noble friend Lady Meacher spoke extensively about the information available. In 1998, the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Lords recommended that there should be a programme to assess the medicinal use of cannabis and that ways should be found to use it. NICE has recommended one or two areas where it can be used, as has already been said. Very few NHS prescriptions have been given out, but more than 1 million people use cannabis preparations bought privately at huge cost. They use them because they find benefit from them. The report suggests that the people who benefit from it mostly suffer from chronic pain. Despite that, reports have been published where people with Alzheimer’s, cancer, chronic pain, Crohn’s disease and multiple sclerosis, to name but a few, found benefits from it. More than 20,000 publications on PubMed, not of clinical trials, but of people’s experience and data collected from patients, show that they have found it to be beneficial.
When recommending and assessing medicinal products using cannabis, NICE suggested that research should be carried out in six or seven areas. I do not know what research has been carried out. The problem with such a recommendation is that it does not recommend who should do the research. So I ask the question: who should be doing this research to explore the benefits that patients find in medicinal cannabis?
Private clinics prescribe more and more cannabis on a daily basis, and more and more clinics are opening in cities in England where cannabis is available. My noble friend Lady Meacher and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, alluded to two important issues. One is that a way needs to be found to collect information on patients’ experiences and data to show why so many patients go to private clinics to get cannabis products and what benefits they derive from them.
I look forward to the Minister’s response, but I hope she may agree, as it would not require legislation or an amendment to the Bill, that the NIHR or the Department of Health and Social Care through the NIHR should establish a forum of specialists, including patients, to find a way forward to collect information on a more formal basis. I hope the Minister will respond positively to that. It has been a pleasure to take part in this debate.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, the amendment signed by my noble friend Lady Walmsley and others would require the Secretary of State to make regulations concerning medicinal cannabis and associated devices. The noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, made his case clearly and strongly. I have a family member who used cannabis as a painkiller towards the end of their life when pharmaceuticals failed. Given the huge relief it can bring to patients with conditions such as epilepsy, it is vital that barriers to access are removed. We have heard that since the law was changed in November 2018, only a very small number of prescriptions have been written for medical cannabis.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, have for many years supported the use of medical cannabis for a small number of conditions. Very few patients have received their medicine on the NHS because NICE has yet to approve the use of cannabis in any context. Evidence is available, so why are the Government fighting shy of using cannabis or its derivatives, thus forcing individuals to become criminals by having to go abroad to countries where cannabis is legally available, but at a huge cost, and then smuggle it home? It does not make sense. We support the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)
We do not seem to be able to contact the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I thank my noble friend Lord Field—he may not technically be my noble friend, but he is really—for bringing this issue to the Committee at this stage. He probably knows that he is not the only parliamentarian who has been driven to cannabis products for similar reasons, but my lips are sealed about who the others might be.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is absolutely correct. She and I have form. I have been supporting her from the Front Bench on this issue for quite a long time. While the debate was going on, I looked to see what Hansard had to say about this. The last time, I think, that we discussed this was in March 2019. At that time, the framework and law had been changed the previous November, so that is two years ago. At that point four people had managed to get cannabis products prescribed. When the noble Baroness put the question to the House, it was answered by the Minister’s predecessor. Will the Minister say how many more people there are now? I think it is probably not that many more, and I see this amendment as a scream of frustration about this issue. There is justifiable frustration that we have not managed to regulate this product in a way that makes it accessible to people who need it most. It also exacerbates the inequalities in our health system because, as the noble Lord, Lord Field, said, he can afford to buy it, but there are thousands of people who need it and cannot afford to buy it. I support this amendment, but I am really much more interested to see what on earth the Government are going to do to make progress with this.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)
I am now able to call the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate and I apologise for not being able to contribute in my allocated slot.
I was very keen to add my name to the amendment to support the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead. I do not want to repeat the points that have already been made, but I draw attention to the fact that a few years ago I initiated a debate in the House on drugs policy. My point was to argue the case not for a change in policy but that policy must be—or should be—evidence-based. At the time, the Minister who replied said that opinion on this is divided. Someone afterwards pointed out that only the Minister disagreed with me because everyone else who spoke in the debate supported the case I was making that the Government were resisting going on the basis of evidence. For whatever reason, they were sticking their heels in.
As we have heard, the evidence really supports the case for change. The APPG for Drug Policy Reform showed the case and that there is evidence for the value of medicinal cannabis in relieving pain. There is a very strong argument on the basis of evidence and a moral case as well, given the sheer number of people who are forced, at great expense and possibly some danger, to find alternative ways of getting hold of cannabis for medicinal purposes, so I very much support what has been said by preceding speakers, including the noble Lord, Lord Field. I think the amendment is a step in the right direction in what it seeks to achieve. It is targeted and proportionate. It is designed to help to expand access to safe and regulated medicinal cannabis products in the United Kingdom. There were other points I was going to make in support, but I do not want to repeat points that we have already heard. I just wanted my name to be on the record as supporting the very powerful cases that have been made for the amendment.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 94A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, deals with a topic of great difficulty. As the noble Lord has personally testified, patients and families deal courageously with challenging conditions, and I know that the issue of medicinal cannabis is one that has had much debate.
As other noble Lords have pointed out, it is almost two years to the day that the Government changed the law to allow the supply of medicinal cannabis under misuse of drugs legislation. These regulations provide that medicinal products containing cannabis can be prescribed or supplied when certain conditions are met. These conditions are that the relevant cannabis product is a special medicinal product, an investigational medicinal product for use in a clinical trial or a medicinal product with a marketing authorisation.
I do not have specific figures for the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on the number of people who may have accessed cannabis drugs since then. I understand that the collection of data on certain private prescriptions was suspended because of Covid-19, but we can go away and look for the latest data and, when it becomes available, update the House. I believe I heard the noble Lord, Lord Field, say that there may have been 204 prescriptions. While I cannot endorse that figure, and noble Lords may feel it is low, it is considerably higher than the figure that the noble Baroness quoted for one year after the approval of medicinal cannabis. Therefore, if it is correct, progress is being made in the right direction.
Noble Lords are right that cannabis remains a controlled drug. I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, already expressed views on this in our discussions with the MHRA on whether it ought to be a controlled drug at all. The noble Lord, Lord Field, also made that point. However, the changes to its restrictions are set out in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001, for England, Scotland and Wales, and the Misuse of Drugs Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002. Those regulations are not within the scope of the Bill.
What is within scope is when those medicinal products are regulated as a human medicine. The noble Lord is asking for regulations to provide for a specific licensing regime for medicinal cannabis. However, I stress that medicinal cannabis products already have a route to market. They fall within the scope of the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 and the Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004. It is entirely appropriate that they are subject to the same standards and requirements of evidence as any other medicine. The MHRA’s licensing process takes into account evidence of clinical efficacy. This includes consideration of all evidence supplied by the manufacturer. The regulators also inspect the factory where the medicine is to be made to make sure that supplies will be of a uniformly and consistently high standard. Companies can and do submit evidence of use from other countries, so there is no need to set an explicit requirement to consider efficacy internationally. If a company wishes to make a product available, it can within this regime.
Medicinal devices that administer medicinal products, including medicinal products containing cannabis, would also need to comply with the relevant provisions of the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. But a medicinal product in the UK must be safe. We have talked throughout the Committee about the critical importance of safety and the need to uphold standards. There is a paucity of evidence to support the quality, safety and efficacy of these products, meaning that very few hold marketing authorisations. To address this, the industry needs to further the evidence base and support the use of their products. Government is supporting this with a programme of two randomised control trials commissioned by the National Institute for Health Research. I hope that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Patel, as the National Institute for Health Research is engaged in assessing the evidence in this matter. These trials will be critical in ensuring that evidence for cannabis-based medicinal products can be developed to plan future NHS commissioning decisions for the many patients who may benefit from these innovative medicines.
Just to pick up on the question of how many drugs may already hold licensing, I can say that there are three such licensed products, including Sativex for MS and Epidyolex for rare epilepsies. These drugs are proof that cannabis-based products can meet the high standards of quality, safety and efficacy that we rightly expect in the UK. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, that the drugs that have been licensed by the MHRA also have NICE approval for use in the NHS in certain appropriate conditions. As we heard in our meeting with the MHRA on Monday, it is able and willing to provide advice to researchers and companies that wish to conduct clinical trials and go through the licensing process for their products.
Cannabis-based products for medicinal use can also be supplied as unlicensed “special” medicines, as noble Lords have noted. A special medicinal product is a product that is manufactured or assembled according to the specifications of a specialist medical practitioner to meet the needs of a specific patient, in accordance with the stringent “specials” regime provided for in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. Those unlicensed products have not been assessed by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence for clinical or cost effectiveness. These are the foundations of NHS decisions about routine funding for medicines.
I appreciate that families with ill children, or patients themselves, would dearly love to have greater products available to them for more purposes, but this is not about creating new licensing routes. It is about companies coming forward and undertaking clinical trials and tests and it is about having the appropriate level of assessment and understanding of the impact. We are taking steps to improve the body of evidence available. When marketing authorisations are sought, they will be dealt with by the regulator, as they would for any other medicine. That may not be as quickly as some would like, but it is necessary to protect patients. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Field, is content to withdraw his amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)
I have received requests from three noble Lords to speak: the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Walmsley and Lady Thornton. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I am most grateful to be able to come in at the end of this important short debate. I particularly commend the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, for his outstanding and long history as a parliamentarian and, yet again, for his clarity and ethical approach to every subject that he addresses.
I am glad that the Minister has referred to the two studies from the NIHR and simply support the idea that we need to wait for those, although I draw attention to the fact that, in 2018, there was a Cochrane database review, which looked at the 16 double-blind randomised control trials that it could find. It found some support, but it was not terribly strong. One of the difficulties here is that pain is a symptom that occurs in an enormous range of disorders, but the fundamental cause of the pain will be very different in different people. To get a matched population where you can compare one with another is extremely difficult. I hope that the change that NICE is looking to in the evidence that it seeks, where it will also look at evidence in practice, will support the evidence coming through from large patient cohorts who can then be put into broader groups.
The other point about pain is that, as people get multiple pathologies, they often take several other medications as well, which can interfere with the ability to assess them. They are also often elderly. The evidence certainly needs to be accrued. I would say as a clinician that one worry was always whether there would be a leak of cannabis on to the streets. However, in practice, I think that the leakage has gone other way so that it comes from the streets into people’s homes. Clinicians have had to look at this with Nelson’s eye because they do not want to support clinical activity. In a study that I did, while we did not ask patients to tell us specifically where they were getting some things from, when we put together all the different types of alternative therapies being used by a group of people who were cancer patients, the numbers were huge. This supports many of the comments that have already been made. I am glad that the Government are looking at it and I expect that it will not be too long before we find that the ability to get the medication that is needed is made easier. I worry that it may be too late for some patients, but we are getting there.
Baroness Penn (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for her comments about the importance of evidence. The Government and the MHRA recognise some of the difficulties around these trials. That is part of the reason that NIHR is supporting two trials and is asking people to come forward. The MHRA has also indicated that it is willing to work with those who have these products in order to support them in the process for licensing.
That has reminded me of one other point. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked me about the NHS commissioning through evaluation programme. I undertake to write to her with a response, perhaps when I update the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on prescription numbers.
Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. With regard to her earlier response, if it were as easy as that, there would have been tens of thousands of NHS prescriptions in the past two years, but clearly that has not been the case. The noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Meacher, have both made it clear why it is very difficult to conduct randomised double-blind clinical trials for these products. That is why I have suggested that, while we wait for many more than two trials, the commissioning through evaluation system could be used. I am grateful to the Minister for promising to write to me about that.
Baroness Penn (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. I emphasise that there has been a great deal of discussion in the debate about the use of evidence. That is what will guide the Government and the MHRA in this, and that is why we are supportive of these RCTs taking place.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I have two brief questions. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in what she said about 200 being two a week. That is really pathetic in terms of what the need is likely to be. I wondered if the problem was because early on, there was a certain nervousness among GPs and clinicians in terms of the legal issues as regards prescribing cannabis products. Is that still an issue? The other thing I want to ask the Minister about is whether the MHRA is drawing on international experience because some countries are much further ahead on these issues than we are.
Baroness Penn (Con)
The MHRA is very clear about its desire to be an international regulator and engage with other regulators across the world on all issues regarding the regulation of medicines and medical devices, so I am sure that it is working in this area. On the point the noble Baroness has made about the nervousness of clinicians on the legal status, this is not something that I am aware is still an issue, but I am happy to take the point away and look at it again.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
My Lords, I wish to concur with some of the points made; I do not speak against anything said by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. We are in complete agreement and I do not counteract anything that she says anyway. Having said that, most people look at medicines as things that cure disease. Most medicines do not cure disease. Symptoms are what patients experience, and we have to treat those symptoms. As an obstetrician, I have spent most of my life treating the symptoms of pain, prescribing morphine and heroin as painkillers to mothers who are suffering from labour pains. I could not measure their pain in any way except by what they told me about it.
The problem with database evaluation is that it looks for the size of the randomised trials. I suggest that observational studies that look at the experience of patients are a good enough database to evaluate whether the substance used is effective in alleviating their suffering. That is the sort of evidence that I hope NIHR will seek to establish a proper database. I am pleased to hear the Minister say that NIHR is looking at ways of dealing with this.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the only thing that I will add is that the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, said that this was about equality. My point is that MHRA’s approach to medicinal cannabis is the approach it takes to licensing all other medicines. So whatever approach we take to evidence, or how we look at the appropriate gathering of that evidence, will be based on the approach we take to all medicines. The way in which cannabis is treated is not as a different or exceptional case, and we will want to ensure that that is the case going forwards.
Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)
My Lords, it may be because I am a new Member that I do not quite understand the nuances of language in the House of Lords. I thank most sincerely my fellow Peers who have participated in the debate, and I agree with the Minister’s wish that at this stage I should withdraw the amendment, but in doing so, I would like to say that we will return to this issue. I would particularly like to return to the issue that my noble friend Lady Thornton raised, about equal access.
Only 10 NHS prescriptions have been offered under the new provisions that Parliament made. When I got what had to be a private prescription and took it to Boots, the pharmacist came back with it as though I had left some terrible mess, dropped the prescription back on the counter and said, “We do not dispense that drug.” So all the talk that somehow, if only we could get a prescription, we would get a supply, is also a myth.
I am disappointed with the Minister’s reply. I thought it was pretty thin gruel to offer us. Although I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, I hope that those of us who are interested in this topic will return to it at the most suitable date.
House of Lords
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now begin. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing, while others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House.
Royal Assent
Wednesday 11th November 2020
(3 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 149-I Marshalled list of motions for Consideration of Commons disagreement and amendments in lieu - (6 Nov 2020)
Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, Oral Questions will now commence. Please can those asking supplementary questions keep them no longer than 30 seconds and confined to two points. I ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief.
Rural Bus Services
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to improve rural bus services.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are developing a national bus strategy to set out how national and local government and the private sector will come together to meet the needs of local communities, including those in rural areas. The Government have established a £20 million rural mobility fund to support demand-responsive services.
Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]
My Lords, over the last 10 years, around half of council-supported bus services have been lost. This has hit rural areas particularly badly. I am glad to hear from the Minister that the Government are taking some action on this, but do they accept that it is time to ensure that rural bus services do not disappear altogether and to look again at the deregulation arrangements introduced in 1986?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My Lords, we believe that local authorities have a significant role to play in ensuring that we protect rural bus services. To that extent, local authorities receive £43 million from BSOG, and in September 2019 we announced a further £30 million of local authority funding. Now we need to ensure that local authorities step up and support the more vulnerable services.
Baroness Mallalieu (Lab) [V]
My Lords, in April last year the Lords Select Committee on the Rural Economy was told about the spiral of decline in both the funding and provision of rural public transport. It recommended that the Government should review the different funding schemes, aiming to put them together in a single investment pot in each area, and then let local people develop integrated, demand-led, case-based systems. Has anything been done?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
As I mentioned, the Government are working extremely hard on the national bus strategy. The sort of proposals that the noble Baroness outlined are the sort of things that we are looking at. It is very much time for local accountability for local bus services, taking into account the needs of the local community.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]
My Lords, it is good to hear that the Government are doing some planning on the issue of rural bus services, but it is not enough to keep pushing responsibility back to local councils when they simply do not have enough money to take forward anything like the amount of services necessary. In view of the fact that we need a national strategy to reduce all our carbon emissions, encourage people out of their cars and generally become better functioning members globally on the issue of climate change, surely the Government can see that funding councils so that they can do their job properly is the right way forward.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
It was a little hard to hear the noble Baroness’s question but I believe it was about funding local councils. These considerations are of course being had as we think about the national bus strategy. However, I say to the noble Baroness that it is not just about money; it is also about skills and capacity. We need local authorities to boost their local transport teams so that they have the skills and capacity to plan the sort of improvements that we need in bus services.
The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a member of the NFU. Does the Minister agree that rural bus services play a vital role in the well-being of communities, especially in less favoured areas such as the Staffordshire moorlands and the Peak District? Does she further agree that these services must be encouraged, assisted, promoted and funded in all such areas in every way possible?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My noble friend is quite right. I assure him that the national bus strategy will include measures suitable for all parts of the country, whether dense urban settings, market towns, sprawling suburbs or the most rural areas. We will need to work with local authorities; this is not something that can be dictated by national government. We will work with local authorities, particularly those in rural places, to ensure that they have appropriate plans in place.
Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]
My Lords, the most successful rural bus operations are those direct, regular inter-urban services that form a network over much of the country. If the Government intend the national bus strategy to be interested in developing truly rural services, are not further improvements to the existing network that I have described more likely to create a framework that could be built on by local authorities in developing their own truly rural services?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I partially agree with the noble Lord in that it is key for all local services, wherever they are, to be integrated with other modes, be they long-distance coach-type journeys or rail services provided between cities or over shorter distances. Integration is important, so to a certain extent it needs a guiding mind. We will be looking to local authorities to pick up the pen on that and take it forward.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, we all agree that public transport is essential for those who live in rural areas and do not have access to a car. However, does it all have to be provided by buses, which often do not run at the times when people want them, do not go from home to destination and back, and frequently lead to narrow country lanes being blocked by large vehicles? Can the Minister do more to promote demand-responsive, community-based services to complement those provided by the bus?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My noble friend is right: an empty double-decker bus careening through narrow country lanes simply will not do. One of the solutions that may be appropriate for rural areas is demand-responsive transport. That is why in September 2019 we launched the £20 million Rural Mobility Fund. We asked for expressions of interest and have had 53. I take great heart from that and at the moment we are reviewing those. We probably do not want to launch them now, in the middle of the pandemic, but we hope that will go on to prove what kind of demand-responsive transport works and what does not, and then we will be able to roll it out more broadly.
Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]
Half of households on low incomes and two-thirds of jobseekers do not have access to a car. Bus services are also crucial to rural economies and small local businesses. However, a study by Warwick University in 2019 found that over a decade the price of travelling by bus has risen by 39%, way above the level of inflation. Does the Minister accept that this has contributed to the decline in bus passengers and that it has been and is damaging, both socially and economically?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
What the Minister accepts is that we must always strive to improve our bus services. In February 2020 the Prime Minister talked about his view for the bus network, with more high-frequency services and better bus prioritisation. With those two things, one automatically gets lower fares. If we can put all those services on cleaner, greener buses, that will be all to the good.
Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]
My Lords, an overreliance on short-term competition funding for the long-term task of transforming transport networks is inefficient and costly. What assessment has the Minister made of the Local Government Association’s call for capital expenditure to be funded through long-term secure grants to councils to plan a comprehensive pipeline of infrastructure and capacity improvements focused on the needs of local networks as a whole?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I have some sympathy with my noble friend in that longer-term funding can sometimes indeed be more efficient. However, it should be said that short-term funding and competitions for larger amounts of funding play an important role in how we fund transport infrastructure. In the case of bus infrastructure specifically, we will be looking to local authorities to plan bus priority measures and then we will outline how we can help and encourage them to put those in place.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]
My Lords, what keeps many buses, especially on rural routes, going is elderly people’s travelcards. Often, if I am on a bus, I know that most of the people going to the remote villages are travelcard holders. It is better now that it has been extended in Wales to other age groups. So I ask that, in the coming demand on council budgets, we safeguard these travelcards because without them we will not have the passengers or the routes.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My Lords, the Government support local authority spending by around £1 billion a year so that older and disabled people can travel on buses; £877 million of that is on statutory schemes, while £230 million is used on discretionary schemes, whereby local authorities decide to extend the scheme to other people. We are well aware of the importance of these concessionary payments to the bus operators, such that they continue services, and we support them.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: Foreign Aid
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bruce of Bennachie
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the economic impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, what assessment they have made of (1) their foreign aid, and (2) their development spending, commitments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Sugg) (Con) [V]
My Lords, like nations around the world, the UK is experiencing a severe economic downturn due to the pandemic, which will affect the amount we spend on overseas development assistance this year and in future years. In light of this, we have prioritised our aid spending to respond to Covid-19, focus on poverty reduction, tackle climate change and champion girls’ education.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]
I thank the Minister for her reply. Integrating development and diplomacy is a major challenge, so how long will it take to achieve that and enable us to build back better post Covid-19? Since poverty is rising, as the Minister acknowledged, the impact of climate change is increasing and we have had cuts to date of £2.9 billion, will the Government publish a strategy for the new department to provide clarity for development partners, some of which are fighting for survival and all of which face an uncertain future? Will that strategy and the Government’s official development assistance be subject to scrutiny by the Independent Commission for Aid Impact, working with a dedicated parliamentary committee to ensure that we maintain the UK’s global leadership in international development?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, we plan to set out a strategy in the near future as part of the integrated review. The aim of the new department is to bring the weight of our diplomatic network to support our development expertise and our development programming dealing with the rise in poverty and the climate change that the noble Lord points to. We are committed to working with our partners as we move through the merger, and I assure him that we are indeed committed to independent scrutiny and confirm that we will be keeping to ICAI.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester [V]
My Lords, protecting freedom of religion or belief remains a pertinent issue in the developing world when more than 80% of the world’s population identify with a religion or belief system. My diocese has historic links with the Church of the Province of Myanmar, and during the pandemic many of its clergy have been providing volunteer support in understaffed hospitals. Can the Minister assure the House that, despite the almost £3 billion cut in the UK’s foreign aid budget, Her Majesty’s Government will continue to prioritise international freedom of religion and belief and recognise the contribution of religious groups in the development and support of their communities, particularly in times of crisis?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, I assure the right reverend Prelate that we are indeed committed to continuing to support the freedom of religion and belief around the world. We will also continue to work with and alongside faith groups. I agree with him that they have been incredible in their response to Covid-19. They are among the first to respond and can play an effective role in bringing about the behaviour change essential to slowing the spread of Covid and reducing infection and illness.
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con) [V]
My Lords, the pandemic has had a devastating health and economic impact around the world. Women and girls have been disproportionately affected. Rates of gender-based violence have soared, in many places girls’ education has been disrupted, and they suffer from acute food insecurity. They have also had to take on additional caring duties for the sick. As my noble friend the Minister acknowledged, there will be less spent on ODA this year. Can she give assurances that the FCDO will continue to be a global leader in advancing gender equality, as well as promoting girls’ education?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
I am grateful to my noble friend for highlighting the disproportionate impact of Covid-19 that we are seeing on women and girls. Advancing gender equality and women’s rights will remain a core part of our mission across government and within the new department. Since 2015 we have supported more than 8 million girls to get an education. Last year alone we provided 25 million women with life-saving contraception, and we will continue this work within the new department.
Baroness D'Souza (CB) [V]
My Lords, the Government have many times reiterated their support for deploying development assistance to further education, especially of girls. This is to be applauded, because we all know that educating girls is a powerful development tool. However, with the limits on school attendance for reasons of poverty, violence or indeed the spread of Covid-19, and with a reduced budget, will the Government now give priority to investing significantly in online programmes and distance learning in the most severely educationally deprived countries, such as Afghanistan?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, we are continuing to prioritise girls’ education, particularly during this pandemic; as the noble Baroness says, many children are out of school at the moment. We are investing in remote learning but we need to make sure that we do so appropriately, given the difference in digital access around the world. We have adapted our programmes within Afghanistan through our Girls’ Education Challenge to make sure that we are reaching girls who are out of school, so that they can continue to learn and return to school when schools reopen.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, since the Foreign Secretary announced in July that there would be cuts of £2.9 billion in-year, there have been very few further details. Can the Minister rectify that? First, why are the cuts 19% when the anticipated fall in our gross national income is only between 10% and 14%? Secondly, where will the cuts fall by department, what is the value of these cuts, and when will details be forthcoming?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, as the noble Lord said, we are still waiting to see the impact of Covid-19 on the economy here in the UK, and therefore the related impact on 0.7%. We have maintained our flexibility to manage our overspend against an uncertain gross national income figure, and we will continue to do so as we approach the end of the year. We are committed to full transparency, and the statistics on international development will provide a detailed breakdown of our overspend across departments. We will also continue to update the development tracker online to show the latest on programmes and projects.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, African countries have been very hard-hit economically by the pandemic, and health spending clearly must be a priority. But will the Government work with others to make sure that cash transfers, which are so vital for those in the informal economies, especially women and girls, continue to be provided?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that Africa has been incredibly hard-hit. We absolutely continue to support cash transfers and indeed the wider social protection net. That is one of the best ways to get support directly to the people who so need it.
Baroness Helic (Con) [V]
My Lords, sexual and gender-based violence is an epidemic affecting one in three women worldwide, but it receives only a miniscule proportion of global humanitarian spending—0.12% between 2016 and 2018. Will Her Majesty’s Government commit to working with the incoming US Administration and other donor countries to increase funding for prevention, and will they lead the way by pledging at least 1% of the UK’s aid spending to programmes combating sexual and gender-based violence?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My noble friend highlights the disturbing increase in gender-based violence that we have seen throughout Covid-19. The UK spends more than average on preventing gender-based violence, but I agree that there is more that we can do. I can commit to working with the US to increase our funding. We have a great opportunity in co-hosting the Action Coalition on Gender-based Violence this year, and I would very much welcome a meeting with her to discuss this further.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, last week I met representatives of the British Overseas Territories, who acknowledged that the funding that they had received since March to deal with the pandemic. But, regarding the second wave, they have had only the statement from September saying that
“in addition to the urgent assistance already delivered, we will support the territories as they deal with the medium and longer-term economic, public health and other impacts of the pandemic.”
Can the Minister assure the territories that these words will be backed up with financial support?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am very proud of the extensive support that we have given the overseas territories on Covid-19, from testing to the provision of kit and expert advice from PHE, as well as financial help. I speak with leaders of the overseas territories very regularly. Just last week I spoke to all the premiers to discuss what further support we will be offering them, and I look forward to our joint ministerial council with all the leaders of the overseas territories in two weeks’ time.
Baroness Coussins (CB) [V]
My Lords, the NGO Translators without Borders is working to provide information on Covid-19 in Rohingya refugee camps in Bangladesh, where women in particular say they would be reluctant to accept a vaccine without more information in a language they speak and understand. The UK’s funding for TWB through the H2H Network ended recently, so I ask the Minister to look urgently at reinstating the necessary funds to encourage acceptance by the refugees of a vaccine when it is available.
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, I agree that we must ensure that, when a vaccine is available, people have the appropriate information. We are supporting H2H through our funding, but I shall take that back to the department and come back to the noble Baroness.
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
My Lords, I will build on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. The 2012 overseas territories White Paper commits the Government
“to meeting the reasonable assistance needs of Territories where financial self-sufficiency is not possible, as a first call on the aid budget.”
In light of the financial impact of Covid-19, can my noble friend confirm that this very specific commitment to our overseas territories remains government policy?
Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]
My Lords, I can commit to our financial support for the overseas territories. They have seen a variation in the cases of Covid—only nine territories have had cases—but most are heavily reliant on tourism and have seen their local economies collapse overnight. We have committed to sharing the vaccine with the overseas territories and we will continue with our health support and our financial support.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Domestic Abuse
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Bertin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what long-term funding plans they have put in place to address domestic abuse.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, since 2010, this Government have provided more than £100 million to tackle violence against women and girls. This year, £35 million has been provided to combat domestic abuse. An additional £76 million was announced by the Government to support victims of hidden harms in response to Covid-19, including victims of domestic abuse. Funding beyond this financial year is a matter for the spending review but, in May this year, the Government committed to developing a victim funding strategy to place this sector on a more sustainable footing.
Baroness Bertin (Con) [V]
I thank my noble friend the Minister for her Answer. While the first round of emergency funding was welcome—the Government certainly deserve credit for acting so quickly—many specialist domestic abuse services now face a cliff edge because they have no set budgets for the forthcoming financial year due to delays in both the spending review and the Domestic Abuse Bill reaching this House. For this reason, there are many problems with commissioning on the ground. Therefore, can the Government confirm that an urgent assessment will be made to establish what further resources are needed between now and the end of March to meet the increased demand? Secondly, can the Government confirm that, through the forthcoming spending review, they will address the instability that these services face by guaranteeing longer-term funding of at least a year from March 2021-22? It feels unreasonable to expect these life-saving organisations to do so much more heavy lifting without budget certainty.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
In answer to my noble friend’s first question, we continue to work closely with domestic abuse organisations to assess these ongoing trends and needs, and help to support them through the period of new measures, building on the work that we have done to date. We are proud that, since 2010, the Government have provided more than £100 million to tackle violence against women and girls. We recognise the absolutely vital role that tailored support services play in supporting victims of domestic abuse, both within safe accommodation and, of course, in the community. On the second question, the Government recognise the need for sustainable funding, which is why the core grants, such as the £1.1 million Home Office fund for seven specialist support helplines for victims of domestic and sexual abuse, run over a four-year period from April 2018 to March 2022.
Baroness Gale (Lab) [V]
Following on from the previous question, does the Minister agree that an increase in core funding, which she mentioned, for women’s refuges is needed because of the sharp increase in domestic abuse since the pandemic? There are insufficient women’s refuges: one in six have closed in the last eight years owing to a lack of funding. Will the Minister do all she can to ensure that long-term core funding is guaranteed, rather than funding special projects, to prevent further closures in this time of crisis for victims of domestic abuse?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, since 2014, MHCLG has invested £80 million in accommodation-based services, including refuges, to support victims of domestic abuse. There were 3,898 bed spaces in refuges in England in 2018. That is a 12%increase from 2010, but additional Covid funding has reopened, creating up to 1,546 additional refuge bed spaces and enabling a further 344 bed spaces that were closed due to Covid-19 to reopen. As announced in the other place during the passage of the Domestic Abuse Bill, which I hope will be in your Lordships’ House soon, we will provide £1.5 million to fund the Support for Migrant Victims scheme, which is due to be launched this autumn.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD) [V]
In its report, Safe and Well: Mental Health and Domestic Abuse, Safelives states:
“Despite the strong association, domestic abuse often goes undetected within mental health services and domestic abuse services are not always equipped to support mental health problems.”
According to this organisation, there has been limited progress by government agencies and
“NHS leaders to drive integration of domestic abuse into the health sector”.
This is particularly true of mental health services; it is often
“prolonging the period in which victims have no support”.
Will the Government undertake to provide more targeted resources than those already mentioned by the Minister so that more is done to ensure greater awareness of the relationship between domestic abuse and mental health within all organisations? This will help people to get the support they need faster.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
You cannot decouple domestic abuse from mental health trauma. Surely the two go hand in hand, not only for the woman—it is usually a women—who is suffering abuse at the hands of an abusive partner but also, usually, for her children, who feel those effects and the trauma for a very long time, if not the rest of their lives.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
I ask my noble friend the Minister when she thinks the Domestic Abuse Bill will come to this House? She said “soon”; does that mean “soon, soon” or “soon, soon, soon, soon”? When it does come, can she make sure that children, from birth to the age of 18, are seen as victims and not witnesses so that they can get the support that they need for the trauma that they have experienced?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My noble friend will know that I would introduce the Domestic Abuse Bill into this House tomorrow if I could, but a number of pieces of legislation need to get through this House. It will probably be early in the new year but I will press—the Leader of the House is sitting there—for that Bill to come to this House as soon as is practicably possible. On the question of children, my noble friend will know that children will benefit from a number of measures in the Domestic Abuse Bill, including—I note what I said in the last answer—the fact that it ensures that they are now recognised as victims in their own right. The Designate Domestic Abuse Commissioner has been appointed to encourage good practice in, among other things, the provision of protection and support for children affected by domestic abuse.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]
My Lords, I chair the National Commission on Forced Marriage. When the Government look at funding, will they take into account the special needs of victims of forced marriage, some of whom suffer domestic abuse from their families rather than their partners?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I am very happy to take back that suggestion from the noble and learned Baroness as we move forward with this.
Baroness Andrews (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Minister will know that, when women leave women’s refuges, they are often at greater risk of harm. What additional protection have the Government put in place to prevent those who have left abusive partners from continued coercive control and financial abuse?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The noble Baroness asks a very pertinent question in this field. The Government have put in place several forms of protection for victims to prevent continued coercive control, which so often goes on after the event, and economic abuse, including accommodation, community-based services and counselling. The Domestic Abuse Bill and wider action plan will help to ensure that victims have the confidence to come forward and report their experiences, safe in the knowledge that the justice system and other agencies will do everything they can to protect and support them and their children and pursue their abuser.
Baroness Benjamin (LD) [V]
My Lords, recent shocking evidence showed a 20% rise in babies being killed or harmed at home during the first lockdown. In normal times, 50% of children in need of support from local authorities come from homes with domestic abuse. The Domestic Abuse Bill promises additional support for victims and children in safe accommodation, but this will not help those who do not or cannot flee their own homes. Will the Minister tell us how the Bill will improve support for victims and their children while they live in an abusive family home?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I hope that I have outlined some of the measures that we intend to put in place. The noble Baroness will recall, some time ago when we discussed this, I explained how we will support people through local authorities in their own homes who need to be kept safe for a short period of time through safe rooms, et cetera. However, the whole point of the provisions of the Domestic Abuse Bill is to deal with all the things that she outlines, including supporting women who have suffered abuse and their children, and establishing perpetrator programmes, which are so often overlooked but are at the heart of us tackling this awful crime.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.
Fireworks: Damage
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Greaves
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to prevent damage being caused by fireworks set off other than at organised events.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I call the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Old Trafford.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford)
Well, I am young Trafford, actually, compared to the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, but we often get the two mixed up. One is old and one is young.
The Government remain committed to promoting the safe and considerate use of fireworks through an effective legislative framework and through non-legislative measures. We launched a public awareness campaign this October with the aim of educating people on how to buy, use, store and dispose of fireworks safely and considerately, and ensuring that retailers know and understand their responsibilities when selling fireworks.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I put this Question down because there seemed to be a spate of fireworks causing damage to buildings that they had hit, including one just down the valley from us at Brierfield, but is it not the case that the indiscriminate and uncontrolled use of fireworks is one of the major causes of anti-social behaviour now in this country? Is it not time that there was a ban on the purchase and use of fireworks except by appropriate bodies on special commemorative occasions and in a controlled and organised way?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, it is true to say that fireworks injuries have actually gone down since 2016. I cannot comment on the assertions made by the noble Lord in his questions, because I do not know whether that is the case or not. The Government are most certainly not thinking of a ban. It might help him to know that the Petitions Committee conducted an extensive inquiry into fireworks in 2019, and concluded that it could not support a ban on the sale or use of them. Funnily enough, the National Fire Chiefs Council agrees, as do the Government.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I agree with the Minister that we should not ban fireworks, but do the police have powers should they find people letting fireworks off in public places where they could pose danger? For example, there were two fires in the Bournemouth area over the weekend for fireworks night. Has there been an increase in the number of children who were admitted to A&E this year as a result of the lack of public fireworks displays and more private fireworks?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. I cannot yet say what the numbers are for this year because they have not been collated, but, as I said in a previous answer, fire injuries have gone down quite dramatically since 2016. On police powers, Section 80 of the Explosives Act 1875 prohibits setting off fireworks in a public place, or throwing them into a public place or on to a public road, and the police have powers to enforce it. Breaches can be subject to a fine scale. They can also issue on-the-spot fixed penalty notices, including fines of £90, to persons age 18 or over who are found to be committing this offence.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]
My Lords, I understand the desire not to restrict civil liberties if at all possible, but the fact is that fireworks lead to some terrible injuries. My information, despite what the Minister said, is that 2,000 people were brought into A&E in 2018. I, in fact, was injured when I was a child and still bear the scars from a wayward firework. I really feel that we should try to move firework sales to people who are experts and know how to put on a public display. Will the Minister think in terms of trying to move the law in that direction?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The number of 2,000 that the noble Lord quotes is actually not far off the figure that I have, which is 1,936. On the point about the numbers declining, if I go through them he will see just how much they have declined—notwithstanding the fact that he was injured by a firework, for which I am terribly sorry. There were 1,936 injuries in 2018-19; 4,436 in 2017-18 and 5,340 in 2016-17. That is a very marked decrease in injuries from fireworks.
Lord Clark of Windermere [V] (Lab)
My Lords, over the past weekend, to see firemen and police being attacked by yobs with fireworks as they attended emergency call-outs saddened me. Then, to hear the police describe fireworks as the hooligans’ weapons of choice persuaded me that only fireworks in organised displays should be permitted. I am disappointed with the Minister’s reply.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, police being attacked by fireworks might be police being attacked by something else on a different night. There are restrictions on anti-social and nuisance behaviour through the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 and the police and local authorities of course have powers under that Act to tackle anti-social and nuisance behaviour. Of course, the noble Lord points out something that is extremely dangerous if people decide that they will behave in this way.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD) [V]
My Lords, I live at the end of the Yorkshire Dales, and while the irresponsible use of fireworks is reprehensible, sky lanterns there are causing incredible damage to animals ingesting wires and are starting fires in the countryside. Richmondshire District Council is considering banning the use of these flares, which have as much destructive ability as fireworks. Will the Government consider doing the same for these sky lanterns?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I have to confess to the noble Baroness that my knowledge of sky lanterns is very limited. However, under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to any captive or domestic animal. That does not quite answer her point, but where there is evidence that an animal is suffering because of such things as sky lanterns, then local authorities will have the powers to enforce on this.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, last year the London fire brigade attended over 2,000 incidents over the Halloween and bonfire night period. Over the last five years, 45% of the fires ignited by fireworks in London during the bonfire night period occurred at residential properties. I support the call from the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for fireworks only to be in the hands of professionals, who can deliver an exciting, memorable display safely, for the enjoyment of everyone and minimising the risk to people and property. The Minister’s response to previous questions is disappointing; can she at least say that the Government will keep this under review?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I can, of course, say to the noble Lord that all legislation is kept under review. If there was evidence of increasing injuries or misuse of fireworks, we would look at it. The Petitions Committee had a good look at this last year and concluded that it could not support a ban on the sale or use of fireworks. However, the noble Lord makes an appropriate point about the responsible use of fireworks. It is very sad that firework displays have not been able to take place this year. It is true that we need to be responsible in using things which are potentially very dangerous.
Lord Loomba (CB) [V]
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House if there will be any New Year’s Eve firework display during this pandemic year, as there has been in previous years?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The lockdown restrictions will certainly be reviewed on 2 December. I would love to see a New Year’s Eve firework display, but my noble friend the Leader of the House is not sure whether it will go ahead. Because the Government have to review some of the Covid measures on a regular basis, it is probably too early to say.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: Vaccine
(3 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Jolly
To ask Her Majesty's Government, following the recent analysis of the effectiveness of the Pfizer and BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine, what arrangements they have put in place to distribute approved Covid-19 vaccines (1) in the United Kingdom, and (2) internationally; and who determines the protocol for priority of access to any such vaccines.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, the NHS is preparing to be ready to deploy a Covid-19 vaccine as soon as one is safe and effective. Distribution arrangements remain flexible and include the make-up of the workforce needed to rapidly deliver a vaccination programme, training requirements, consumables and supporting infrastructure. The UK continues to work through multilaterals, such as the G7 and the G20, and with the WHO to agree collaborative approaches to supporting global vaccine development and distribution.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
The Government anticipate that the vaccination programme will start with the most vulnerable and those living and working in care homes. Vaccination into muscle does not need to be administered by a clinician; any of us could be trained to do it. Which organisations are the Government working with to make this happen? Can the Minister confirm that there will be no need to take out contracts with the private sector, but that the Government will use the military, local resources—such as public health, fire and ambulance services—and trained volunteers?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right that the range of people who can administer this vaccine is extremely wide. The challenge of administering so many vaccines in such a short amount of time will indeed require the involvement of a large range of people. We are putting in the recruitment and training necessary for that to happen. I am particularly grateful to all healthcare workers, particularly those from professions such as the pharmacy industry, who are stepping forward to meet this challenge. We are not allergic, though, to using the private sector in this matter, and we will be explaining the detailed terms of our arrangements at a later date.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
I plead with the Minister to ensure that whatever arrangements are being made for rapid result testing and vaccination, absolute priority is given to the vulnerable, itinerant, homeless and occupants of night shelters, for the earliest possible access to testing, when the new rapid testing regime is introduced, and for vaccination. They are very vulnerable people, and that is the least we can do for those in need.
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Lord makes a persuasive case for those who are most vulnerable, including the itinerant and the homeless. We have seen for ourselves the impact of the disease on those who live in close quarters with each other, have health vulnerabilities or are exposed to the disease due to the nature of their circumstances. Those who are most vulnerable should surely be at the top of the list. I do not know the precise arrangements for the homeless and itinerant, but he makes an extremely good point, and I would be glad to get back to him with details.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, as is the case with the ordering of home testing kits, in order to prove one’s identity and access the vaccine, will UK citizens be required to share their credit rating history with US data-mining companies with which the Government have signed contracts?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]
My Lords, what are the arrangements in Scotland as far as the Minister knows?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, we are taking a four nations approach to the deployment of the vaccine. The Scottish NHS has been involved in all the arrangements we have been putting together and in both the Vaccine Taskforce, to procure the vaccines, and the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which has been discussing prioritisation. Furthermore, it has a voice at the DHSC, which is responsible for deployment.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
My Lords, the announcement of the effectiveness of the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine being not only the first vaccine against Covid-19 but the world’s first vaccine against infection developed using messenger RNA is a huge scientific advance. There are challenges in delivering an effective national vaccination programme. As Professor Melinda Mills, in a report from the Royal Society and British Academy, pointed out, not the least is honest, transparent public communication free from hyperbole. Does the Minister agree? If so, who does he think would be best placed to lead the public communication of the programme?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Lord is entirely right that we have to approach the prospect of a vaccine in a measured way. There remain considerable imponderables about the effectiveness, longevity, impact and side-effects of a vaccine. These are things that we do not know yet, and we have to keep our eyes open to the limits of what the vaccine may or may not be able to do. That said, the initial data from Pfizer is incredibly encouraging. We have taken a measured approach in our communications to date. Jonathan Van-Tam, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, is the face of the vaccine, as it were; he is the member of the Vaccine Taskforce who has brought the clinical perspective to its work, and he will remain an important voice in all this.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
It is good news indeed. I would like the Minister to share how the Government are preparing to build public confidence in the vaccine and counter the anti-vax campaigns. Following my noble friend’s question earlier, I would be grateful if the Minister could share with the House the plans for reaching harder-to-reach communities, so they can get the information they need and access to the vaccine when the rollout starts.
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Baroness is right that we face a challenge. While there will be millions of people who will come forward emphatically to have the vaccine, there will be some who are either disengaged with the British Government or actively hostile to the thought of a vaccine, and we take seriously the disruption caused by those who seek to profit either financially or politically from the confusion and distress caused by anti-vax campaigns. It is not appropriate for me to discuss at the Dispatch Box the detailed measures we are putting in place to deal with the anti-vax message, but I can reassure the noble Baroness that they are focused, energetic and proving to be effective.
We also take seriously our efforts to reach hard-to-reach communities—those who might not have confidence in the Government or we might not have the right connection with. Those communities are exactly the ones we need to vaccinate, and we are making them an enormous priority in our efforts.
Lord Moynihan (Con)
Will my noble friend the Minister ensure that among the priority groups for vaccination will be the sportsmen, sportswomen and their entourages who are seeking to represent GB in international events during 2021, in particular the Olympic and Paralympic athletes who aim to qualify for and participate in the Olympic Games in Tokyo? Will the Government urgently consult with the World Anti-Doping Agency to ensure that all approved vaccines are exempt from any possible breach of the current regulations on doping?
Lord Bethell (Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend for that question, which is incredibly important because we all take our preparation for the Olympics extremely seriously. I am also grateful to him for giving me advance notice of it. There is a desire for all the UK population to be vaccinated, including those who represent the UK. Prioritisation decisions will be based on vaccine availability and scientific clinical evidence on the safety and efficacy within different population groups. The JVCI is the independent expert on this and will make the decision he refers to. The World Anti-Doping Agency is actively responding to the coronavirus outbreak as it relates to the global anti-doping programme and the regulations are evolving rapidly.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP) [V]
Acknowledging the possibility of a vaccine being made available before Christmas, can the Minister assure me that a Northern Ireland supply is part of the UK’s order, and will the Northern Ireland Executive be involved in discussions over its distribution? Can the Minister also tell us when he expects news concerning the vaccine being developed by Oxford University?
Lord Bethell (Con)
We are working extremely closely with the Northern Ireland Administration to ensure deployment of the vaccine; as I said earlier, this will be done on a four-nations approach. The Oxford vaccine is going through the final stages of phase 3. We are very much looking forward to hearing how it is going but I am afraid to say that I do not have a precise date for when that will be.
Lord Scriven (LD) [V]
My Lords, what specific arrangements have the Government put in place at our borders to ensure that the vaccine can pass speedily, without hindrance, from Belgium after 31 December?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, we have extremely detailed and thorough arrangements for our borders on 31 December. No problems are envisaged with regard to the vaccine.
Lord Balfe (Con)
My Lords, I draw attention to the bit of the Question that says:
“distribute approved coronavirus vaccines in the UK and internationally”.
There is a great danger in the international distribution that corruption will creep into the system. Can the Minister assure me that the Government will co-ordinate with the EU and like-minded international aid agencies to ensure that corruption is avoided and the vaccine that we donate is delivered for free to vulnerable groups in countries overseas?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My noble friend makes a very reasonable point. The marketplace for vaccines is extremely competitive. The British Government have been emphatic in our commitment to CEPI, Gavi and the other vaccine organisations. The COVAX advance market commitment aims to produce 1 billion doses for high-risk populations in 92 developing countries in 2021. We support that initiative enormously and work with other partners to ensure the fair and equitable distribution of vaccines around the world.
Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
[Inaudible]—about the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine and full credit to the vaccine taskforce. Given that other vaccines, such as the Oxford AstraZeneca one, will, I hope, be available soon, what will the Government do to ensure the rapid rollout of the inoculations of these vaccines? Can business help in any way? As president of the CBI, we stand by to help in any way we can. Secondly, I offer my congratulations on the rapid mass-testing pilot starting in Liverpool. Can the Minister confirm that these pilots will now be rolled out to another 67 regions, and how soon will that happen?
Lord Bethell (Con)
I am grateful for the noble Lord’s remarks. Business can play an important role. Distribution of the vaccine will employ a large workforce and the supply chain is incredibly important. There will be a dimension for business to provide thought leadership and behavioural leadership to encourage and make space for employees and to be advocates for the principle of vaccination in every way. In terms of mass testing, we have sent lateral flow devices to 67 directors of public health and we will be learning from the Liverpool experiment to see whether we can apply citywide mass testing of the kind he describes to other cities in the future.
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
My Lords, I commend the Government on the leadership they have shown in committing £548 million to the COVAX advance market commitment to which my noble friend referred a few moments ago. That is essential if we are to ensure that poorer countries are to get access to these vaccines. However, with some $2 billion of seed corn funding required by the end of this year, what are the Government doing to ensure that other first-world countries follow our lead in this area?
Lord Bethell (Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend for the question on international vaccines. He is right that no single country holds the keys to victory against this invisible enemy and we must work together. I point out in particular the work of the ACT Accelerator, which estimates that $38 billion is needed by the end of next year for equitable access to vaccines. This will be an important part of our chairmanship of the G7, which starts at the beginning of next year, and which will be a helpful platform for Britain’s advocacy of fair and equitable distribution of vaccines.
Lord Flight (Con) [V]
I thank all involved for the achievement of a successful vaccine. What, if any, is the effect of the vaccine if taken when the recipient is already testing positive for coronavirus?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, my understanding at the moment is that it is not necessary to take a coronavirus test before having the vaccine. This has been one of the subjects of the trials that have taken place so far. I do not believe that there is any effect at all but I am happy to check that, seeing as it is a detailed clinical point that is beyond my personal experience, and revert to my noble friend with confirmation of it.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.
House of Lords Commission
(3 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Senior Deputy Speaker
That the Report from the House of Lords Commission Rules relating to Parliamentary passes for Members’ Staff: follow-up report be agreed to. (1st Report, HL Paper 160)
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the House may recall that this is the second report from the commission on the subject of passes for Members’ staff. The first report was published in May 2019 and was prompted by the former Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct, which advised us to take steps to ensure that all Members’ staff passes, of which there are more than 500, are being used for the purpose for which they are intended: namely, to assist Members directly with their parliamentary work.
A number of Members had concerns about our initial proposals, and we have listened. The feedback from two well-attended consultation meetings and various written submissions was invaluable. Unfortunately, the disrupted sitting patterns last autumn and the pandemic mean that it has taken until now to bring revised proposals before the House. We now recognise that rather than restricting passes to staff who “regularly and frequently” provide the Member with parliamentary support, we should employ a more qualitative approach.
Accordingly, we propose the following new rules:
“Members may only sponsor a pass for an individual if the absence of such a pass would make it impossible for the individual to support the member effectively.”
We have also underscored the existing rule that Member’s staff may not use their pass,
“to further the interests of an outside person or body from whom they have received or expect to receive payment or other incentive or reward.”
If the House agrees the report today, the administration will write to all Members who sponsor staff passes to set out the amended rules and ask them to confirm their compliance. In recognition of the fact that some Members may need time to adjust their existing arrangements, there will be a one-off grace period lasting until 31 March 2021. While the revised rules will have immediate effect, the commissioner will have regard to that grace period in considering any relevant complaints against Members of the House.
Much of the feedback we received during the consultation related to something that was not the focus of our first report: the issue of passes for staff of all-party parliamentary groups. We understand how much Members value the work of APPGs, and we strongly encourage noble Lords and others to make submissions to the House of Commons Standards Committee, which is conducting an inquiry into APPGs, including the issue of passes. As my recent global email pointed out to Members, the deadline for written submissions is 20 November, so noble Lords have nine days to put in such submissions.
The evidence received by the committee will help to inform the final scope and terms of reference of its inquiry, which will continue into next year. In the meantime, the rules remain as they have been in both Houses since 2013. People whose primary or only role in Parliament is to support an APPG are not entitled to have a parliamentary pass. This report simply restates the existing situation while allowing Members’ staff to help APPGs in addition to the core role of assisting their sponsoring Member. If Members have any questions about the interpretation of these rules, the Registrar of Lords’ Interests will be happy to advise, and I am happy to receive any further comments from Members.
Lord Balfe (Con)
I am not criticising the report, but I am a bit puzzled by a couple of things. The first concerns the word “primary”. Presumably, that means that someone is here just to look after an all-party group. However, a lot of people seem to be around Parliament working for MPs and also staffing all-party parliamentary groups. I frequently go to APPGs and find that the assistant, generally of an MP—the MP for somewhere or other— is also acting as secretary to this group. This appears to be okay, but I would like confirmation of that, because I am a bit unclear what “primary” means.
The second point is that there are people here who, I will not say represent outside groups, but are paid by outside groups, such as a trade union. I declare an interest in that I had an assistant for a time who was advising me but was actually paid by a TUC-affiliated trade union. I am not quite clear where these people fit in. It applies not only to them; there are a number of hybrid organisations. For instance, the Catholic Union has a person who works within Parliament, for a Member of Parliament, for two days a week, who obviously has a pass which enables them to come and see people within Parliament. So, it seems there is a sort of hybrid group in the middle of people who are not part of all-party groups but are, none the less, and I would say, quite legitimately, within Parliament, because they do an extremely good job in keeping us informed of things that matter. I am just wondering where such people fit in to this kaleidoscope of different jobs of people who work here.
I think it would be a great mistake if we tightened the rules to a point where, say, a legitimate trade union representative could not also brief other Members about issues. They might work for one Member but nonetheless send out briefings on a quite wide basis. I think, for instance, of the Justice Unions Parliamentary Group, which is serviced by someone who works within Parliament for a Member but works part-time to service that all-party group. Will the Senior Deputy Speaker clarify, if he can, where these rules begin and end, and assure us that legitimate interests from outside Parliament will still be able to make representations to us?
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, I ask the Senior Deputy Speaker a very simple question: who will interpret the word “impossible”? It is certainly true that without my own assistant it would be impossible for me to continue in this House and do my duties—there is no question about that—but there will be grey areas in relation to Members. Is it going to be decided by officials of this House, by the House of Lords Commission or by the Procedure Committee?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, first, I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker. I raised concerns about the earlier draft, and he has listened to those and come back with what I think is a very workable and proper report. I wonder sometimes whether the term “staff passes” is quite as accurate for Peers as it is for Members of the House of Commons. I assume that “staff passes” is used for continuity and clarity about access because, for most Peers who have a staff pass, it will be not for a member of staff but for an assistant, and quite often a volunteer. However, I think the proposal we have here is the right way forward.
On what my noble friend Lord Blunkett said about what is “impossible”, I think it will be for the Peer to make a judgment on that but, if there were any question about it and if it were refused, there would be a right of appeal. I think most Peers will know what is meant by “impossible” and why they need someone to support them.
I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, is making rather heavy weather of this. My understanding, based on our ongoing discussions, is that if somebody has a pass as a member of an outside organisation, whether a trade union, a campaigning organisation or whatever, and advises a range of Members as part of their work, that would not entitle them to a pass. If, of course, they are primarily supporting a Member of the House of Lords, that work would entitle them to a pass. But the primary reason they have a pass must not be because they want access for the other organisation they work for. I think that should be clear, and I suspect it is what the Senior Deputy Speaker will address. He gave examples of both. If somebody has a pass because they are working for a Peer, whether in a voluntary or a paid capacity, that does not preclude them from doing other work, but the primary purpose cannot be for their role in a campaigning organisation. I hope that is helpful to the House.
I am grateful to the Senior Deputy Speaker. There has been some concern and we have to be mindful of security. There have been a lot of passes. I think all Members are very grateful for the support and advice we get from outside organisations that assist us in doing our work. In most cases, they do not have a pass to do that, but we are quite happy to meet them and have a cup of tea—or, occasionally, something stronger—when circumstances allow. There is a bit of an irony in discussing passes now, when those who hold staff passes are not permitted on to the estate, other than in exceptional circumstances, because of the pandemic. We look forward to when that changes and we are able to have those advisers, with or without passes, back on the estate so that we can discuss issues with them.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
Since nobody else in the Chamber wishes to speak, I call the Senior Deputy Speaker to reply.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I thank noble Lords for their very legitimate points. If I may reinforce the issue, the primary, core work is for the Member. If, for example, a Member is part of an APPG, their assistant can help with that, but they should be mindful that he or she is there to ensure that the Member of the House of Lords can do their work effectively. Hopefully that makes that plain.
The issue of passes and 500 has been a matter of concern to the House of Lords Commission, particularly in terms of media stories and whatever else. However, it has also been of concern to the House of Commons. On behalf of the House of Lords Commission, I was asked to engage with the Speaker of the House of Commons on this; we produced a way forward but were then informed that the Commons Standards Committee have undertaken this issue. The Speaker of the House of Commons and the chair of the Standards Committee are encouraging Members from the House of Lords to input their views. They will also ensure that, when this report is out, there is a place for the House of Lords to engage on this. The bicameral element here must be underlined.
The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, asked who makes the decision. I am delighted to say that the noble Lord engages with me quite regularly via email on particular issues; I encourage him to continue with that. To get an issue such as this sorted out, my first port of call would be the Register of Members’ Interests; this element is important. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned, it is for the Member to judge themselves on the work they do and whether that work has been carried out according to the rules.
In terms of us listening, the definition of “regular and frequent” came up. I had quite a number of discussions here, not least with a Labour Front-Bencher, on what that definition meant. As a result of interpreting that, we moved to a more qualitative approach, which satisfied Members. Most of the Members I have engaged with have been satisfied with that. If there are still outstanding issues, I would be delighted to receive any comments. I emphasise that as many Members as possible should write to the standards body in the House of Commons so that our views are well articulated there when it comes to take the final decision.
Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill
Wednesday 11th November 2020
(3 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Act 2021 View all Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 15 October 2020 - (15 Oct 2020)
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Stewart of Dirleton) (Con) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to open this debate. I am struck by the importance of the legislation on which I will make my first contribution to the House.
Before commencing, I wish to express my thanks to the House for the warm welcome I have received since taking up my appointment. I owe particular debts to my supporters, my noble friends Lady Goldie and Lord McInnes, for their good humour and encouragement; to Black Rod, Garter and the clerks of Parliament for their patience and tolerance; and to my noble friend Lord Courtown for his wise guidance in the customs and practices of this place. Your Lordships will, I hope, realise that, should I offend against these, the cause lies in my obtuseness rather than in my noble friend’s instruction.
I recognise that I am filling the place of my noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie. I am too new in this place to speak of his reputation here, but I can say that his high standing in our profession is a consequence not only of his matchless forensic skills but of the kindness and courtesy that he shows to all and the care with which he led the Scottish Bar as Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.
I hope I will not trespass further on the patience of the House if I take the opportunity given by my maiden speech to make some reference to myself and to the place from which I have taken my title: the village of Dirleton, in East Lothian. It is a place of great beauty. Moreover, there are aspects of its history and geography which may provide your Lordships with matter for reflection.
I know that many of your Lordships are familiar with the area. Some of your Lordships may have tested your skills against the famous golf courses which lie round about. There are other diversions too: yachting and skiff rowing from North Berwick around the islands just off the coast, which fired the imagination of the young Robert Louis Stevenson. The islands may be viewed from the fine beaches, looking across to the Kingdom of Fife at magnificent and ever-changing vistas of sea and sky.
All sorts of sporting clubs and associations of other sorts flourish. At the recreation ground and elsewhere in North Berwick, I played bowls, hockey, football, rugby, highland games, tennis and, not least, cricket—a sport which suffers in East Lothian not so much from want of enthusiasm among its players but from the shortness of the season and the unpredictability of the weather.
Dirleton lies in an area of rich, fertile soil, and we can anticipate that our farmers may soon be able to take advantage of new opportunities arising out of the implementation by this Government of their popular mandate. We can anticipate, too, that more boats may set out along the waters of the Firth of Forth to work fisheries which will be richer, better managed and replenished by the more directed and more sustainable management policies which the policy of this Government will allow to be established.
The village of Dirleton features the castle—set in beautifully landscaped grounds—a village green, a primary school and two hotels, where visitors may regain their strength ahead of more sightseeing. The parish church in Dirleton dates from the 17th century. Inside is a list of the names of those of the parish who fell in two world wars. The church is set in surroundings of especial beauty, north of the village green and north of another smaller green, on which stands the war memorial where, again, the names of those who fell are inscribed.
This 11th day of the 11th month brings to mind those names on the war memorial, so familiar to me from their being called over at Remembrance Sundays. Some are the names of families who flourish in East Lothian to this day. But today calls to mind also those others who lie in the churchyard and the cemetery on the way out of the village—names from the rest of the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth and allied countries. Those graves remind us of service and sacrifice in a common cause to preserve our institutions and to keep alive our common hope for a brighter future. We will remember that the sacrifice in that common cause continued after those great wars were brought to an end, and continues today—sacrifice of life, of mental health and of emotional well-being.
Watching the business of the House and the range of expertise and experience your Lordships bring to the scrutiny of that business, I am conscious of the honour done to me by admission to your number. I am conscious, too, that I have no family history of service in this place, as do some of your Lordships, and that I have been appointed to my place, whereas many of your Lordships come here after having sought and won popular mandates from electors, whether in local or devolved government or in the other place. But I seek to assure your Lordships that in my role as law officer, I will seek not only to uphold the law but to try to maintain the spirit and traditions of your Lordships’ House.
The legislation we bring forward is a necessary piece of legislation; it will ensure that our intelligence agencies, law enforcement bodies and those public authorities that also have vital investigative functions are able to continue to deploy tools they need to keep us safe from harm and to prevent serious crime. The recent incidents in Nice and Vienna, and the increase in the threat level here in the UK, show that the need for robust tools with which to tackle terrorism remains as important as ever.
Covert human intelligence sources—I will use the convenient, if inelegant, acronym, CHIS—are agents: undercover officers who help to secure prosecutions by infiltrating criminal and terrorist groups. This technique has been used to disrupt terrorist plots, including one by Zakariyah Rahman against the then Prime Minister in 2017; drugs offences, including enabling the largest ever seizure of heroin destined for the United Kingdom in 2019; and child sexual exploitation and abuse, including attempts by individuals to take indecent images of children.
It is appropriate to reflect today on the role that our intelligence agencies play in war and conflict. A notable success of the intelligence agencies was the discovery and arrest of German spies in the United Kingdom at the outbreak of hostilities in 1914—a success built on the effective use of what we now call CHIS, alongside other techniques. The courage and ingenuity of the double-cross network, a CHIS network which did much to protect allied lives in the Second World War, often at grave cost, comes to mind also as we pause to remember today.
In order to build credibility and the trust of those under investigation, there are occasions where CHIS may need to participate in criminality themselves. This is an inescapable feature of CHIS use. Without this, it would not be possible to utilise CHIS as an intelligence tactic. The Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill seeks to ensure that there is a clear and consistent statutory basis to authorise participation in conduct which could otherwise be criminal, where this is necessary and proportionate to what is sought to be achieved. Let me say at the outset that the purpose of this Bill is not to extend the range of activity which public authorities are able to authorise—the Bill does not do this.
The Bill amends the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 to provide an express power to authorise CHIS to participate in conduct that, but for the authorisation, could be criminal. This is known as a criminal conduct authorisation. The effect of an authorisation is to make the conduct lawful for all purposes. I recognise that this is a departure from the existing approach, whereby authorised criminality can still be considered for prosecution by the prosecution services. This approach is a deliberate policy decision. It aligns with other investigatory powers and the approach taken elsewhere in RIPA, including other CHIS authorisations. It also provides greater certainty for CHIS that they will not be prosecuted for activity the state has asked them to commit. We think it is right and fair to provide this certainty, and it may also help to recruit and retain CHIS in the future and maximise the intelligence we can gather through this technique.
Of course, this is not a blanket immunity from any criminal prosecution. Criminal conduct authorisations are tightly bound with strict parameters which are clearly communicated to the CHIS. A CHIS will never be given authority to participate in all or any criminality and were they to engage in criminality beyond their authorisation they could be prosecuted in the usual way.
While it is right to provide this certainty to CHIS and to their handlers, it is of course important—vital—that this is subject to robust and independent safeguards. Let me briefly set out how the Bill ensures this.
All authorisations are granted by an experienced and highly trained authorising officer, who will ensure that the authorisation has strict parameters and is clearly communicated to the CHIS. Authorising officers have clear and detailed guidance that they must follow in deciding whether to grant an authorisation. We have published draft updates to the code of practice alongside this Bill that sets out some of that detail. I encourage all noble Lords to read that. The updates to the code will be subject to a full consultation and debate in both Houses in due course.
Authorisations are then subject to robust, independent oversight by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner—the IPC—who conducts regular and thorough inspections of all public authorities and published an annual report of his findings. The IPC sets the frequency of these inspections himself, and public authorities must provide unfettered access to documents and information. The IPC will report on the use of criminal conduct authorisations in his annual report, and this will identify any errors, provide statistics on the use of the tactic and may identify whether there are any training needs. Public authorities must take steps to implement recommendations given by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office—IPCO—with progress assessed at the next inspection. The IPC also has powers to provide independent remedy; for instance, to inform a person if they have been the subject of a serious error, or to refer a matter to the independent Investigatory Powers Tribunal.
I know that some will think that we need to enhance the role of the IPC in this process. The Government are committed to ensuring that there is robust oversight of criminal conduct authorisations, but that this is not at the expense of ensuring that the tactic remains operationally workable and reflects the live and complex human elements of CHIS, which we do not see in our other investigatory powers. For this reason, we do not think that prior judicial approval is appropriate for this tactic and believe that the authorising role best sits with the highly trained authorising officer within the public authority, as it does at present. The authorising officer will be able to consider the necessity and proportionality of the conduct, but will also consider the safety of the CHIS and the human element of the specific situation. The IPC then provides an important retrospective oversight function, which I have set out.
I want also to draw attention to the additional safeguards in place for vulnerable individuals and juveniles. These safeguards are clearly set out in the CHIS code of practice. It makes clear, for example, that juveniles or those who are vulnerable are authorised as CHIS only in exceptional circumstances. However, there may be occasions when these individuals are able to provide intelligence to disrupt criminal groups. I know that might sound uncomfortable, but it might be necessary to stop criminal groups continuing to exploit those individuals and prevent anyone else being drawn into them. In these instances, significant additional safeguards are in place to ensure that the best interests of the juvenile are a primary consideration in all operations. Those are set out in detail in the code of practice, which has legal force and includes a requirement for an appropriate adult to be present at all meetings where a CHIS is under the age of 16 and to be considered for 16 and 17 year-olds, and the rationale documented if an appropriate adult is not present.
I turn briefly to the upper limits of conduct that can be authorised. These are contained in the Human Rights Act 1998. It is unlawful for any public authority to act in a way incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, and the legislation makes clear that nothing in the Bill detracts from a public authority’s obligations under the Human Rights Act. We have not drawn up a list of specific crimes that may be authorised or prohibited as to do so would place into the hands of criminals, terrorists and hostile states a means of identifying a CHIS, creating a checklist for suspected CHIS to be tested against. That would threaten the future of CHIS capability and result in an increased threat to the public. We have taken this approach in response to a detailed assessment of the specific threats we face in this country. No two countries face the same threat picture or, indeed, have identical legal systems. In particular, we must consider the specific counterterrorist effort in Northern Ireland. However, through the safeguards and the independent oversight that sits alongside an authorisation, there are checks in place to ensure that no activity is authorised that is in breach of human rights obligations or, indeed, activity that is not necessary or proportionate.
Let me, finally, just pause on the list public authorities that can authorise this activity. The number of public authorities able to authorise this conduct has been restricted from those that can authorise the use and conduct of CHIS generally. We expect wider public authorities to be low-volume users of this power because an authorisation can be granted only where it is necessary and proportionate to what is sought to be achieved. However, there will be occasions where CHIS play a critical role in providing the intelligence needed for these wider public authorities to identify and prevent criminal activity. These authorisations will be subject to the same safeguards and independent oversight I have already outlined, including by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. We have published case studies that give examples of the use of this tactic by wider public authorities. I give the example of where the Food Standards Agency may authorise a CHIS to participate in criminal conduct. This may relate to the relabelling of produce to misrepresent its quality and fitness for consumption. Those are criminal offences, but by authorising a CHIS to participate in this activity the Food Standards Agency might be able to gather intelligence to seize unfit produce and identify those responsible for the fraudulent activity.
It has been a pleasure to make my maiden remarks on this issue. I am of the strong view that this Bill is both necessary to ensure that our operational agencies are able to keep us safe, and welcome in that it provides legal clarity through an express power and sets out the robust safeguards to ensure that an authorisation is tightly bound, necessary and proportionate. CHIS do a difficult and important job in providing intelligence that other investigatory tools cannot access. This Bill provides certainty that operational agencies can continue to utilise this tactic and that they are able to best ensure that they keep us all safe. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, for his clear explanation of the content and purpose of the Bill. I congratulate him on this, in his fine maiden speech, which I know the House will have appreciated and enjoyed. The noble and learned Lord specialises in criminal law and has already had a distinguished legal career, being called to the Bar in 1993, appointed Queen’s Counsel in 2011 and, last month, being appointed Advocate-General for Scotland, succeeding the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie.
The noble and learned Lord’s title is, as I said, Lord Stewart of Dirleton. Dirleton, near North Berwick, is, as he said, in one of the many beautiful and scenic parts of Scotland, by the coast and adjacent to one of the best-known golf courses in the world: Muirfield. I found his references to the village of Dirleton both interesting and moving.
The noble and learned Lord has joined the relatively small group who have made their maiden speech as a Minister at the Dispatch Box. We welcome him most warmly to this House and look forward to what I am sure will be many further thoughtful and compelling contributions from the Dispatch Box.
Security is a top priority for us. Our first responsibility is to keep this country and our citizens safe. We recognise the importance of our police and security services, including the National Crime Agency, and thank them for the vital work they undertake on our behalf. We also recognise the importance of covert human intelligence sources and the results they achieve. The director-general of MI5 has said:
“Since March 2017, MI5 and Counter-Terrorism Police have together thwarted 27 terror attacks. Without the contribution of human agents, be in no doubt, many of these attacks would not have been prevented”.
In other words, this kind of activity and operation is saving lives by stopping terrorist attacks on our citizens.
The data available also indicates that in 2018, for example, covert human intelligence operations disrupted threats to life, led to the seizure of thousands of kilograms of class A drugs, safeguarded more than 200 vulnerable people, and took firearms and rounds of ammunition off the streets. Covert human intelligence operations also play a significant role in stemming and preventing vile crimes such as child sexual exploitation, and organised black markets in, for example, vital medicine.
The activity the Bill deals with is not new: it has been taking place under existing practices for years. The Bill provides the statutory footing and increased oversight that have so far been missing.
It is well understood that in order to achieve their objective of protecting our citizens from acts of terrorism and vulnerable people from other awful crimes, covert human intelligence sources may need to commit criminal conduct. Being embedded in a proscribed organisation is, of course, an offence in itself. Such activity must be tightly controlled, but it is necessary to achieve the successful infiltration of the activities of criminal and terrorist organisations and networks to gather intelligence and to thwart or bring an end to their activities.
This vital and necessary activity cannot continue in the shadows without boundaries and safeguards. We acknowledge the importance and necessity of putting covert human intelligence sources activity on a proper statutory footing, and we strongly support that aim. This is not the first piece of legislation that brings activities that have been going on in the shadows into a statutory and regulated framework. The Investigatory Powers Act 2016 had a similar purpose in relation to surveillance and phone tapping, and the Bribery Act 2010 also provided for the authorisation of criminal acts in pursuit of those involved in crimes covered by the terms of that Act.
The crucial issues for this Bill are those of safeguards and oversight. We will be pushing to introduce proper oversight, increased scrutiny and further legal protections into the Bill. The question of safeguards and checks on activity of this kind is a serious issue for any democratic society. It is vital, too, that there is public confidence in how our security services and other agencies that use covert human intelligence sources are exercising the power of authorised criminal conduct.
We also have to be clear about what we expect of those engaged in covert human intelligence activity, the standards we should set and how we expect them to be implemented. We recognise that the Human Rights Act is mentioned on the face of the Bill, and that no authorisation should be made in contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights. The accompanying memorandum to the Bill states:
“Section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 makes it unlawful for public authorities to act in a way which is incompatible with Convention rights. Nothing in this Bill detracts from that fundamental position. Authorising authorities are not permitted by this Bill to authorise conduct which would constitute or entail a breach of those rights.”
We will, however, be pressing the Government to go further and will be tabling an amendment, based on the Canada model, to put explicit limits on what can be authorised by placing protections against the most serious crimes, including murder, torture, and sexual violence, in the Bill.
The Government need to make it clear beyond any doubt that the activities of covert human intelligence sources under this Bill are not, and will not ever be, free from Human Rights Act considerations and that there will not be any deliberate attempts to prevent the Human Rights Act from coming into play.
We will be seeking to strengthen both prior and post-authorisation oversight. As it stands, the Bill provides for self-authorisation by an agency of criminal conduct. There is no need to obtain a warrant, for example, beforehand. I am conscious of what the noble and learned Lord said, but we have areas of law at present where judges are available 24 hours a day, and we will pursue the issue of prior judicial oversight in respect of this Bill.
As drafted, the Bill requires the Investigatory Powers Commissioner to include information about public authorities’ use of criminal conduct authorisations in the annual report, including statistics on the use of the power, the operation of safeguards and errors.
It is not sufficient for this somewhat vague requirement to be on an annual basis. Every authorisation should be notified to the commissioner within a few days, and the Intelligence and Security Committee should have more detail about the use of the powers under the Bill, and in what context, if there is to be meaningful reassurance to the public on the operation of safeguards and the use of the powers. We will be tabling amendments on these issues.
The Bill provides that authorisations for participation in criminal conduct may be granted only if it is necessary in the interests of national security; for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime or of preventing disorder; or in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom. We need to have clarity about what is within the scope of that framework of the necessity criteria, which cannot and should not encompass any lawful activity, including legitimate trade union activity. We will be pursuing this issue in Committee.
There is also a proportionality test in respect of authorisations for participation in criminal conduct. What must be considered before deciding if an authorisation would be proportionate is covered in the code of practice. There is a question, however, of whether those required considerations should not be strengthened by being written into the Bill—a point that might be relevant to other parts of the code of practice.
On the impact of the Bill on those affected by it, we will be pursuing the issue of the safety of juveniles and vulnerable people acting as covert human intelligence sources. We will also want to be satisfied that there are measures in place to prevent a disproportionate gendered impact, or impact on black, Asian and ethnic-minority communities, of the use of the powers under the Bill.
The issue of a route for redress and civil claims for wholly innocent victims is one we will also be raising in Committee. While those most likely to be affected by the criminal conduct of a covert human intelligence source are those with whom an agent is engaging in order to thwart criminality, there will inevitably be occasions when a wholly innocent person ends up with a material loss as a consequence of the actions of a covert human intelligence source. In addition, we will also want to be satisfied of the necessity for the non-security agencies covered by the Bill to have the power to authorise criminal conduct by covert human intelligence sources.
This is not a retrospective Bill but it has to be made clear that those seeking justice for what has happened in the past can still do so. There is an ongoing inquiry into undercover policing chaired by Sir John Mitting. Its recommendations should be implemented and victims should not be denied access to justice. Likewise, we are committed to a full independent public inquiry into the events at the Orgreave coking plant in June 1984. There are also outstanding issues in relation to the unlawful blacklisting scandal and the finding of the Metropolitan Police’s internal investigation that,
“on the balance of probabilities, the allegation that the police or special branches supplied information is ‘proven’.”
The kind of powers that the Bill covers and their use need to be on the statute book and not, as now, be powers in the shadows.
We are committed to keeping our people and our country safe. To deliver that, law enforcement bodies and our security services have to be able to carry out their vital and necessary work, which includes the activities of covert human intelligence sources and the authorisation of criminal conduct to which the Bill relates. We are mindful that public confidence in our law enforcement and security agencies is dependent on their proven ability to protect us from acts of terrorism and other vile crimes
We will be seeking to improve the Bill, particularly on the vital issue of strengthening safeguards and oversight so that the public can also have full confidence in the covert human intelligence process and how it is being implemented, including the manner and purpose for which the powers are being used on behalf of all of us.
Lord Paddick (LD) [V]
My Lords, I too welcome the noble and learned Lord to this House and congratulate him on his maiden speech and appointment as Advocate-General for Scotland. If noble Lords think that he has been put into bat a little early, I can reassure him that I made my maiden speech the day after my introduction; needs must when the devil drives.
First, I should perhaps explain my experience on these issues. When I was in the police, we used to call most covert human intelligence sources “informants”, who were mainly criminals recruited and run by “handlers”. The way in which handlers used, rewarded and authorised informants to participate in crime was controlled by “controllers”. I used to be a controller. I also had the enormous privilege of visiting MI6 and GCHQ to be briefed on the work of all the security services as part of this House’s consideration of the then Investigatory Powers Bill, including examples of who their CHIS were and how they were recruited and used.
Secondly, I came to my own conclusions about this Bill, having read the Investigatory Powers Tribunal judgment dated 20 December 2019 that prompted it. I am grateful for the briefings from Justice, Reprieve and the NUJ, among others, some of which I agree with and other aspects I do not.
There are two fundamental issues in the Bill on which the Government have, to date, not been as clear as they could be. The first is that it is not just about one issue, and it certainly does not simply maintain the status quo, as the Government have suggested. The reason for the Bill is to give absolute legal clarity that handlers can authorise their covert human intelligence sources to participate in crime. They have been doing that with little difficulty for decades but the Investigatory Powers Tribunal’s split decision called into question whether there was any legal authority for the police and the security services to authorise CHIS to commit crime. If providing that legal authority was all that the Bill did, it would maintain the status quo and I would have no argument with it.
Of course there are peripheral issues that the Bill provides an opportunity for us to address, but on providing legal authority for participating informants, as we used to call them, or criminal conduct authorities as they are now called, there is no argument and I will support the Bill in that respect.
The Bill, however, goes much further—unacceptably far—and makes everything that the covert human intelligence source is authorised to do by the criminal conduct authority “lawful for all purposes”, including immunity from civil liability, and including any conduct that is incidental to what CHIS are authorised to do. For example, had the Bill been in force at the time, the undercover police officer who was authorised to form a relationship with an environmental activist could have argued that sleeping with her was “incidental to” what he had been authorised to do, and that he therefore could not be sued.
The status quo is the following: the Crown Prosecution Service examines what happens in such cases after the event, and independently decides whether a crime has been committed, whether there is a 51% or more chance of conviction, and whether prosecution is in the public interest. Rarely—the Government’s position is never—does the Director of Public Prosecutions grant immunity to a CHIS prior to the event. To date, the status quo has rarely, if ever, caused any problems. It has been put to me that the status quo does cause problems, in that sometimes, when a handler asks an informant to participate in crime, the criminal concerned backs away because they want a promise of immunity in writing, and the handler cannot give it. We need to examine carefully and in detail whether such a cast-iron guarantee is necessary or desirable.
This Bill as drafted would allow a police officer or member of the security services, with no independent judicial oversight, to grant total immunity to a criminal to participate in an armed robbery, for example. Rarely, if ever, would immunity not be given prior to the CHIS being asked to participate in crime—a complete reversal of the status quo. At the moment, the CPS almost always decides that it is not in the public interest to prosecute in such cases, but the Bill makes anything done in accordance with a criminal conduct authority not a crime. What is in law a criminal act becomes a lawful act for the person authorised that would no longer rest on the public interest test. This is not preserving the status quo by any stretch of the imagination.
The Government will tell us that that is akin to granting immunity to those involved in the interception of communications and, indeed, immunity is to be provided by the same section of the same Act that makes properly authorised communications interception “legal for all purposes”. However, interception of communications has to be authorised by a Minister of State in advance, having already been approved by an Investigatory Powers Commissioner against someone suspected of the most serious criminality.
However, under this Act, authorising a criminal to take part in an armed robbery, in which innocent people could be seriously injured, will not be done in advance by anyone outside the police. Even officials in the Home Office, potentially on instruction from government Ministers, could otherwise grant immunity to someone to commit crime, with no prior judicial oversight and little post-event scrutiny. Is that what we want?
The second major issue about which the Government have not been clear is who these covert human intelligence sources are. In their briefings, the Government have placed the emphasis on CHIS being undercover police officers or officers of the security services working undercover. The majority of covert human intelligence sources are criminals, members of terrorist organisations and drug gangs, or those inside other organisations that the police or security services have a legitimate interest in. This legislation, as drafted, will predominantly protect criminals, not undercover cops.
Other safeguards are needed, such as to prevent CHIS from acting as agent provocateurs and to protect child CHIS. We must carefully scrutinise which authorities can grant immunity. Other matters, considered in the other place and recommended by NGOs, such as prior authorisation and limitations on what crimes can be authorised, would be necessary only if the immunity provision remains part of the Bill. It should not remain part of the Bill. This is not a party-political issue; this is a rule of law issue. We have a lot of work to do.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB) [V]
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for his thought-provoking speech. I welcome the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, and look forward to many contributions from him in the future. I particularly welcome a fellow criminal lawyer to a senior role here. His maiden speech was both elegant and bucolic.
The proportionate use of CHIS is a necessary component of the fight against terrorism and other serious crimes, including people trafficking and modern slavery. A group of operational case studies has been tabled by the Home Office to accompany this Bill. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, for the part that she has played in ensuring that those case studies appeared and for providing as much openness as possible for our debates on the Bill, consistent with legitimate national security considerations.
As we heard, a major inquiry is currently investigating undercover policing. It enjoys the wise leadership of Sir John Mitting. Under examination of the activities of individual police officers and professional managers, this Bill provides a framework—a rulebook—that makes it clear that participating informants of and in crime, including those committing some crime, must be subject to full and rigorous control in the future, and that the use of CHIS is controlled in all circumstances.
No more can there be room for sometimes extraordinarily casual and inexcusably pragmatic decisions which allow vulnerable people to continue to be involved in, and at the same time be victims of, serious crime. The CHIS draft revised code of practice, published in September, is a model of its kind, and I hope your Lordships have read it. It is essential reading for this debate.
Subject to two reservations, the Bill, the code and the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office should provide a clear foundation for the proper use of CHIS in the future. I urge your Lordships not to be confused about IPCO’s role. It should be a prompt and rigorous regulator. It should not be transposed to a real-time, operational approval agency. That is not its intended role and, frankly, not its expertise. The Bar Council says that, in respect of criminal contact with the security and intelligence services,
“this Bill is a welcome regularisation of activity which was previously lawful but for which the power and mode of authorisation was opaque and outside the system of quasi-judicial scrutiny which otherwise oversees all intelligence and surveillance activities of agents of the state. It serves to reinforce the rule of law.”
I agree.
I have two reservations, which Her Majesty’s Government must address. First, amendments to the Bill can ensure that IPCO’s scrutiny role will be accelerated, so that any breaches of the Act and code are negated within the minimum practical full-time period, and it certainly does not have to wait for an annual report. Secondly, in relation to CHIS aged under 18, of which there have been very few, the youngest being 15 years old, I agree with the organisation Justice that authority to commit criminal conduct should be limited to truly exceptional and necessary circumstances, with clear and proactive measures to protect the child’s welfare. All that must be achieved within the provisions and correct interpretation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
I look forward to Committee, which promises improvement of an already very welcome Bill.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]
My Lords, I warmly welcome the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, to his office and to his place in this House. We are both members of the Faculty of Advocates, and I am delighted by his present appointment. I am unable to comment on the full state of his speech because I gather that some parts of it were constrained, but I congratulate him warmly on that passage which was his own, and which, as has been said, contained some very moving matters relating to the village of Dirleton, which I know well. I look forward to many contributions from him in this House, and hope and pray that he enjoys his tenure here.
It is with a certain amount of nostalgia that I take part in this Second Reading. In 1992, I was responsible for the first reference in Parliament to a Bill concerning the security and intelligence services, on the invitation of my good friend Lord Hurd of Westwell. I am very sorry that for a long time he has been unable to participate in the business of this House.
I have tried to look at this matter in a somewhat theoretical way, and I entirely accept that much must be discussed in Committee, but it is clear that criminal organisations depend for their success on elaborate machinations, which they strongly endeavour to keep secret. To overcome this secrecy, the forces of law and order have found it necessary to enable covert human representatives to infiltrate these machinations, or to participate in them, thus appearing to breach criminal law.
Apart from a few statutory offences, our criminal law requires, as an essential to conviction, that the accused is motivated by a criminal intention. It is clear that a covert representative of law and order has no such motivation and, therefore, is not guilty of a criminal offence when he or she infiltrates or participates in a criminal operation for the pure purpose of investigating or bringing it to conclusion. Again, it is clear that such an activity may involve danger, and it is obviously right that he or she should not face, as an additional danger, a risk of prosecution. This Bill is a clear and systematic way of obviating that risk—even in a case where the statute which is relevant to the operation does not require a criminal intention for its breach. I support this Bill wholeheartedly, subject to the many detailed considerations already mentioned by your Lordships, which I certainly agree should be thoroughly considered. My point is that, if the real intention of the convert human intelligence is for the purpose of investigating and stopping the criminal activity concerned, they do not have a criminal intention.
The Lord Bishop of Durham [V]
My Lords, I too would like to welcome the noble and learned Minister to the House and to his new role. Not many find their maiden speech to be that of introducing a Bill to the House, and I congratulate him on the necessarily blended speech.
I welcome the Government’s move to provide a statutory basis for covert human intelligence sources to participate in criminal conduct, where it is necessary and proportionate to do so for a limited set of specified purposes. We recognise the heavy duty placed on government to protect its citizens, and this Bill is a necessary step so that those undertaking these activities with a view to protecting the public can be clear in their status and duties.
However, while welcoming the intent behind this Bill, I am concerned that safeguards should be properly scrutinised, in particular when they concern the treatment of children. Sadly, we know that children are used and abused in evils such as county lines, child sexual abuse and other serious crimes. In facing these, there is an understandable temptation, however small, to make use of children as assets for the forces of law and order. We should never lose sight of the fact this places and keeps children in situations of harm and of increased risk. The primary concern must always be that, when children find themselves in vulnerable situations, we look after them as children first and foremost rather than assets for fighting organised crime. We must guard against the temptation to undermine that essential principle in the pursuit of security. Regardless of the children’s age—I note that they are usually 15, 16 and 17 and few in number—we must still treat them as legally children. They are not to be used and must be protected.
Therefore, how can using a child as a CHIS and in doing so placing them at greater risk of harm ever be in their best interest? Allowing these children to act illegally only worsens this. It is preferable for children never to be used. I am confident that the majority of noble Lords would agree, including the Minister. However, I recognise that there may be rare instances in which children are being used. If this is to be the case, then fixed protections need to be put in place. Although there are guidelines in the code of practice for children used as CHIS, this requirement should be made statutory so that there is sufficient legal weight. Vague phrases like “exceptional circumstances” must be met with explanation and guidance rather than leaving it open for interpretation and even manipulation.
We trust our law enforcement agencies to act within the law, but we must protect them from themselves when the temptation arises to use children for what appears a greater good. It is unfair on those agencies not to provide clear legal parameters by which they must operate. Let us not settle for compromising the safety of children for the pursuit of a safer nation, for is it not for those very vulnerable children for whom we seek to create this safer nation? If on rare occasions children are to be used as covert human intelligence sources, there must be clear and meaningful safeguards set out in statute. I will be looking in Committee to support amendments in this space.
Lord Hain (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I too welcome the Minister to this House. To declare an interest, I am what is described as a “non-police, non-state core participant” in the Undercover Policing Inquiry, and I am due to give evidence early next year. I was targeted by undercover officers for some 30 years, including when I was an MP. But what troubles me most are the clear abuses practised by undercover officers involving people I know well.
Ecological activist Kate Wilson is not a criminal. She is a principled radical activist. She was at primary school in London with my two sons. Our families shared holidays and often visited each other’s homes. She was targeted by undercover officer Mark Kennedy, who formed an intimate and what she described afterwards as abusive relationship with her over seven years. He even reported back to his superiors on contacts with my family when I was a Cabinet Minister. Why were police targeting Kate instead of drug barons, human traffickers, criminals and terrorists?
Doreen Lawrence, now my noble friend Lady Lawrence, was a law-abiding citizen when her family’s campaign to discover the truth about her son Stephen’s brutal racist murder was infiltrated by undercover officers. Why were they not targeting the racist criminals responsible for Stephen’s murder?
Undercover officers attended anti-apartheid meetings in my parents’ living room from 1969 through the early 1970s and reported back that I was a speaker at anti-racist meetings when I was an MP in the early 1990s. Why were they not targeting those responsible for, among other things, crimes in London of fire bombing and murder by the oppressive actions of the apartheid state? Why did they show no interest whatsoever in discovering who in South Africa’s Bureau of State Security was responsible for sending me a letter bomb in June 1972 capable of blowing my family and our south-west London home to smithereens were it not for a technical fault in the trigger mechanism?
In each of these cases, the police were on the wrong side of justice, on the wrong side of the law and on the wrong side of history: infiltrating the family of a climate change activist instead of helping combat climate change; covering up for a racist murder instead of catching the murderers; harassing anti-apartheid activists campaigning for Nelson Mandela’s freedom instead of pursuing crimes by the apartheid state.
Fortunately, Kate Wilson’s early eco-activism helped make climate change an international treaty. We stopped the 1970 all-white South African cricket tour; we helped bring down apartheid; and Nelson Mandela went on to be elected President. The Anti-Nazi League, of which I was a founding national officer, succeeded in destroying the fascist, racist National Front. But why were undercover police officers trying to disrupt us, diverting precious police resources away from catching real criminals?
However, perhaps I differ from other core participants in the inquiry because I do believe there can be a need for undercover officers. When I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 2005 to 2007, I met undercover officers doing brave work trying to prevent dissident IRA splinter groups from killing and bombing. I also signed surveillance warrants to prevent Islamist terrorists bombing London and was aware of vital undercover work around their cells.
But where to draw the line—if indeed, it is possible to do so? How do you stop that sort of legitimate undercover police or intelligence work sliding over into the illegitimate? Counterterrorism police recently putting non-violent Extinction Rebellion on their list of terrorist groups hardly inspires confidence. Why does this Bill not even begin to answer any of these key questions?
Lord Beith (LD) [V]
My Lords, speaking from Berwick-upon-Tweed, it is a pleasure to welcome the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, from just up the road in Dirleton. I wish him well in the House.
My interest in this Bill is as a former member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I am in no doubt at all that human intelligence continues to be essential in preventing terrorist attacks, disrupting violent criminal gangs and tracking down prolific sex offenders. I also accept that law-breaking is inevitably a feature of some of those from whom we get human intelligence. In my mind, there is a distinction to be drawn—the noble Lord, Lord Hain, touched on this—between two different kinds of sources. One is described by intelligence services as an “agent” but, as my noble friend pointed out, by police as an “informant”. This is usually a person already involved in a terrorist, criminal or hostile state activity who has turned, induced to give information that may save lives, but they cannot retain their cover among people involved in that activity if they refuse to participate in anything that is against the law.
The other scenario is the undercover police officer who is sent to infiltrate an organisation but is still accountable to the police force for his or her actions. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, pointed to some of the dangers that arise from the misuse of that sometimes necessary process. However, all these activities require some legislative basis. A nod and a wink that, if the intelligence is good, they might not be prosecuted is not adequate, but a general immunity also presents problems, as my noble friend Lord Paddick made clear. Therefore, the Bill is necessary, but it requires further scrutiny and amendment to deal with some of the issues in it, and I want to pick out some of the main concerns.
First, there is a strong case for prior authorisation by a judge of all but the most urgent cases. If it is needed for interception or for a simple search warrant, how much more is it needed for a criminal act—perhaps a serious criminal act?
Secondly, I am unhappy with the range of organisations in the list. If we have to include bodies such as the Food Standards Agency, which sometimes has a need for human intelligence, then ought they not to have to refer to the police and get authorisation from them or from some other external body? The authorising process is so far from the central nature of their activities that it does not seem to me a satisfactory basis for their inclusion.
Thirdly, I have long had concerns about the term “economic well-being”, which features in the Bill. It is very familiar in intelligence legislation but I do not know of a case in which a court has had to define it. It could include so many things: it can include a systemic threat to our banking and financial system but it can also include a major industrial contract that could account for a lot of jobs in Britain, even perhaps a bid for a major international event to be held here. Where do we draw the line? There is too much uncertainty around that.
My fourth point is that, as well as the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, I would want the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament to review on a continuing basis the ways in which these powers are used. It should not be prevented from doing so by an insistence that the issues raised by this work are strictly operational. They are not; they include moral and ethical issues that require parliamentary scrutiny in a secure form, which is what the ISC is for.
I have one final plea. This Bill is a rewrite of RIPA 2000 and the Scottish equivalent legislation. You cannot understand it without a copy of RIPA beside you, so it makes an obvious claim for consolidation as soon as possible. The law really has to be readable and intelligible to those who have to enforce and live by it.
Baroness Bull (CB)
My Lords, I join others in welcoming the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, and congratulating him on an excellent maiden speech. In a crystal clear exposition of the Bill, he reminded us that the use in exceptional circumstances of children as covert sources, including those as young as 15, is already covered by law. This Bill would allow for them to be authorised, in exceptional circumstances that continue to be undefined, to commit criminal offences in order to integrate themselves into groups under investigation and provide intelligence that would not otherwise be available.
I am not the first today, nor will I be the last, to express concerns about the use of children as mechanisms for intelligence gathering, however valuable that intelligence might be. It stands in direct contradiction to what should always be our intention, which is to remove children from situations and relationships that promote criminality, and it almost certainly involves children from already disadvantaged backgrounds, further widening the inequalities between the lives and long-term outcomes of those who have and those who have not. We know that criminals prey upon vulnerable individuals, including children, using their vulnerability as a shield against law enforcement. It seems extraordinary that, rather than ending this exploitation, the law itself would become the next perpetrator of continued abuse through the recruitment of children and vulnerable individuals as CHIS. I argue that they should never be used in this way but, if they are, as the law already allows, every possible safeguard needs to be in place.
The revised code of practice includes several welcome improvements, but there are areas that still need to be strengthened. Clarity is needed on what constitutes an “exceptional circumstance”, and the code should be clear that the protection of an appropriate adult must be available to all children under 18, rather than on a case-by-case basis, as is proposed. This appropriate adult provision is standard practice for police interviews, even for the most minor transgressions. It cannot be right to fail to provide this support when children are taking the serious decision on whether to place themselves in harm’s way.
The revisions to the code add considerably to the section on juvenile sources but not to that relating to vulnerable individuals. The definition of a vulnerable adult fails to include victims of slavery or trafficking. Although paragraph 4.6 of the code stipulates that there must be an assessment of the juvenile’s ability to give informed consent, there is no such stipulation when it comes to vulnerable adults. Anti-Slavery International has questioned the extent to which someone who has been trafficked or exploited is able to give this informed consent, given their traumatic experiences of manipulation and control, and the long-term impact that this can have on their ability to make independent decisions.
There is also no reference in the code of practice to mental capacity and the ability of someone with impaired mental capacity to consent to acting as a CHIS. As mental capacity is not universal but specific to a given decision, and as it can change over time, it presents particular challenges and needs to be specifically covered. This omission is yet another example of legislation and statutory guidance failing to make provision in relation to mental capacity. I would be grateful if, in responding, the Minister could confirm that this omission will be reviewed.
I know that there will be some who argue that these safeguards are best placed in the code of practice rather than on the face of the Bill, but putting them on a statutory footing would send out a clear and unequivocal message about the importance that we place on our responsibility to protect children and the most vulnerable in our society. They are already a target for exploitation by criminals and they should be able to rely on the state, not only for protection but to help break a cycle of abuse that will otherwise echo on through the course of their lives.
Lord McLoughlin (Con) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, first, I too congratulate my noble and learned friend the Minister on his maiden speech and welcome him to the House and, indeed, to the Dispatch Box.
It is just over a year since I made my valedictory speech in the House of Commons, on 5 November. I was first elected to the House of Commons in 1986 with a majority of 100. I particularly want to bring that out today because, of course, it is 100 years ago today that the Cenotaph was unveiled and King George V was present in the laying to rest at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Westminster Abbey. We must always think of the sacrifices that those people made to enable us to be here today—to debate in this Chamber and in the other place.
I say a very special thanks to all those who have welcomed me to the House of Lords and made my transition here so very easy. I particularly thank Black Rod, the doorkeepers and all the staff of the House in what are very difficult times.
I thank my two sponsors as well; it is easy for me to do so. I first came across my noble friend Lord Cormack some 50 years ago. He had the biggest swing in the country and won a seat called Cannock, where I was at Cardinal Griffin school. He visited all the schools and invited them to the Houses of Parliament. It was on that trip that I thought to myself, “One day, I’d really like to come back as a Member of Parliament”, never expecting really to be able to do so. I am grateful to him for that. It was not something I thought I would achieve. My father died the day after my seventh birthday, on 1 December 1964, and my mother worked in a factory in Wolverhampton and brought the family up as a single mother from then on. I went to work at Littleton colliery, where my father and grandfather had worked before me. Becoming an MP was a dream that I did not expect I would be able to fulfil.
I very much regret the current situation we find ourselves in. One thing I really miss is seeing people visiting both Houses of Parliament and I look forward to the time when that can be restored.
My other sponsor was my noble friend Lord Randall. We do not go back quite so far as those 50 years, but we have been working in Parliament for more than 20 years from when he first joined the Whips’ Office. He eventually became Deputy Chief Whip when I was Chief Whip in the coalition. He would always speak very truthfully to me about what he thought we should be doing. It was a great pleasure for me to ask him to be one of my sponsors when I came into the House. We worked consistently together during that period, although he was for a short time not in the Whips’ Office having voted against the Iraq war.
I loved my time in the Whips’ Office; it was a great pleasure to be there. I did it for some 17 years. David Cameron then asked me to go back to the Department for Transport, in which I started as a junior Minister in 1989. To go back there as the Secretary of State in 2012 was a great honour. I had four years there and it was a tremendous privilege. When I first got there, I was in favour of HS2; I became more strongly in favour of it the more I went into the detail about the need to increase capacity in this country.
In January this year, I applied to become chairman of the British Tourist Authority; it was an appointment I took up. The scene was very different then. Tourism is a very important industry in our country. I look forward to us being able to restore it to its rightful place with the very difficult challenges that it has to face.
I will deal with the Bill. One body I met when I was Secretary of State for Transport was the armed unit of the British Transport Police. The pressure that we put on our police services and our officers in the front line is immense. It is our duty to do everything we can to help them. I too have some slight concerns about the number of bodies covered by the Bill, which seem to go a bit wider, but I am sure that will be addressed in Committee.
For somebody from my background to join your Lordships’ House is an immense privilege. I look at the House, listen to the wide variety of views and see the diversity of where its Members come from. I realise that the experience and knowledge in the House add greatly to our national debate. I hope that in the years to come I can continue adding to that debate as well, always appreciating that we are an appointed House and that the House of Commons is an elected one.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, it is a real pleasure to be the first to commend my noble friend on his maiden speech. For much of his parliamentary career in the other place, he was in the Whips’ Office, notching up a record 17 Trappist years. That meant that we were deprived of his views in the Chamber on public affairs, although he could be more forthcoming in private. Happily, he faces no similar vow of silence in your Lordships’ House, and we look forward to him catching up on those lost 17 years. How appropriate that, as a former Government Chief Whip and master of the dark arts, he should make his maiden speech on a Bill dealing with covert intelligence and the infiltration by agents of the Executive of political activists seeking to do harm to the Government—though I doubt whether in furtherance of that cause he entered into any long-term relationships with Christopher Chope or Philip Davies.
My noble friend was Chief Whip during the coalition, which was probably at its strongest in the Whips’ Office, due not least to his capacity to develop good relationships with those from other parties, a talent particularly welcome in the less partisan atmosphere of your Lordships’ House. He brings to the House a deep affection for Parliament, as we have just heard. He is also chairman of the British Tourist Authority and a former Transport Secretary and will bring an informed view to our debates on those matters, among many others. We look forward to his future contributions.
I do not have any fundamental objections to the Bill but, along with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, I have reservations about its impact on children. Along with other noble Lords, I am grateful to Jennifer Twite and Just for Kids Law for their briefing on the Bill last Friday. I was struck particularly by the evidence of Neil Woods, a former undercover police officer with experience of being a CHIS and handling them. He made two points: first, that 95% of the use of CHIS in his experience was targeted on the drugs trade and, secondly, because county lines were using children as a means of distribution, there was growing pressure to use children to infiltrate the gangs and bring those responsible to justice. I note that none of the case studies which the Minister gave us yesterday involved children. However, as gangs use younger and younger children in county lines so there is a risk of a race to the bottom if younger and younger CHIS are then used to inform on them.
That brings me to the only point I want to make in this debate. We need to get the balance right between, on the one hand, the imperatives of enforcing the law and, on the other, protecting children from danger. I am not sure that the Bill and the undefined “exceptional circumstances” in the code take the trick. We heard for example from Neil Woods about the strain on an adult of maintaining deception. What must it be like for a child? Chapter 4 of the draft code is certainly an improvement, but there is no lower limit on the use of children for entrapment. I wonder whether either the Bill or the code will make it clear that there is a lower age limit beyond which children should never be used for CHIS. For example, I find it indefensible that the social worker of a child in care is not told when that child is recruited. How can a local authority discharge its responsibility to a child already failed by its parents if it does not know that the child has been recruited for dangerous activities? I therefore join other noble Lords in hoping that during Committee we can rebalance the Bill and build in better protection for the country’s children.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab) [V]
I join others in welcoming the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, to this House and commend them on their maiden speeches. I want to say particularly to the noble and learned Lord, who like me is a Scot but also a criminal lawyer, that I hope he will bring his experience of human rights and civil liberties to bear on his work in this House, because we confront that regularly as criminal lawyers and know the importance of those aspects of our work.
I accept that the practice of our intelligence services and police in covert intelligence gathering has to be placed on a clear and consistent statutory footing. Covert agents may need to commit crimes in the course of what they do—I know that from my own work—but I want to reinforce what was said by my noble friend Lord Hain: the agencies involved should stop this business of spying on legitimate protest and lawful political activity, the stuff of which is so vital to a vibrant democracy. It is not the right use of our policing or of our security services.
As I said, agents may need to commit crime, but it cannot be acceptable or right to authorise the gravest of crimes—murder, torture, sexual transgression. Our security partners in the United States and Canada already place limits on the nature of the crimes that agents can commit. Canada recently passed legislation in this area which is worth looking at because it prohibits those serious offences quite clearly. It looked at what had been happening recently here in Britain with the “spy cops” case, which has been referred to a number of times. Women were lured into relationships in order to provide cover for agents joining political movements. Those women were involved in serious relationships over years and then felt abandoned, abused and ill-used because they loved the men who lived with them; one had fathered a woman’s child. This conduct has long-term, damaging effects on people and should be absolutely impermissible. The FBI in the United States learned from bitter experience that being involved in serious criminality had a cost, and it too has introduced clear guidelines.
The Government argue that there is no need for the Bill to include explicit limits on crimes, set out in any sort of list, because the Human Rights Act is a sufficient safeguard. This argument is a bit rich when Her Majesty’s Government have separately stated, in legal court arguments, and to Parliament, that they do not accept that the Human Rights Act applies to abuses committed by their agents.
The Government should not authorise grave crime. Without limits, the Bill may damage the integrity of the criminal law and suggest to the public that the state may tolerate or encourage such abuse. I am afraid that I see this as another display of the Government’s rather casual and light-touch commitment to the rule of law. We should be setting the gold standard for oversight and accountability and I hope that we do. There have to be clear limits on the permissible crimes, a right to redress for those who are abused or harmed in the course of crimes, and real-time oversight by a judicial commissioner or judge. This is serious, it matters, and I hope that the Government will listen.
Baroness Doocey (LD) [V]
My Lords, there are times when breaches of the law by agents of the state should be allowed, in order to avoid some horrific harm to society as a whole, but there are some lines which should never be crossed. One such line is the assumption that children, who are often extremely vulnerable, can be used as agents of the state. Children are not pawns on a chessboard to be sacrificed for the greater good of some checkmate against organised criminals.
This country has a shameful record on vulnerable children. I witnessed this at first hand when I spent eight years as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority. It is shameful that, in 2020, children in care are six times more likely to be sexually exploited, and 12 times more likely to be victims of trafficking, than other children. During the passage of the Modern Slavery Act, I sought a separate section specifically to protect children. The committee on the draft Bill had recommended a specific offence that it be illegal to exploit a child, or to obtain benefit from the use of a child for the purpose of exploitation. For reasons which I still fail to comprehend, the Government disagreed. I will, therefore, be seeking to secure specific protections for children on the face of the Bill. As Just for Kids Law, an excellent charity, puts it,
“it is deeply worrying that children are being asked to participate in covert activity associated with serious criminals without fully considering their welfare and best interests. Not only are the authorities using children—some of them under the age of 16—in covert investigations, but oversight in this area is so inadequate that the government isn’t even aware how many children are affected.”
That is, frankly, shocking.
There are girls left in gangs to act as informants who could be subject to all sorts of abuse, and boys left in drug rings who may be compelled to commit crimes which will haunt them for years to come, if not for the rest of their lives. There is also the temptation for police to avoid doing a trafficking referral if they think that the child is of more use as an informant in a gang or extremist environment. The Government say that children are used only if they are already involved in criminal activity. However, this is a classic two-wrongs-make-a-right argument and completely misses the point that many of these children have not chosen a lifestyle of criminality but have been trafficked into the gangs or will have found security in a gang that their home situation does not provide.
The fact that children are already involved in criminal activity is not, and never can be, an excuse for putting them in a position where they may be the victims of violence or asked to engage in it. This House should make that clear. In addition, where children have any involvement in undercover operations, they must benefit from representation by an appropriate adult, right up to the age of 18. It is quite incomprehensible that a 16 or 17 year-old is entitled to have an appropriate adult with them if they are arrested for some relatively minor crime, but not entitled to the same support if they are helping the state in an investigation. This should be guaranteed.
The way we treat children defines us as a society. This Bill can and must be amended to give them better protection.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
I join other noble Lords in welcoming the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, to their place. I do so with open arms, if the Minister will forgive a reference to that delightful Dirleton hostelry.
The Bill, like the litigation which forced it into being, is welcome. I have a wish list, but time requires me to come straight to the nub: the linked questions of immunity, authorisation and oversight. The Bill would give power to police superintendents to confer immunity on members of the public, and of their own organisations, for the commission of crimes. That proposition is startling, and the potential for abuse obvious. There are three central ways in which that potential might be mitigated. The first way is to remove the immunity and retain the existing discretion of the CPS to prosecute for a criminal offence within the scope of the authorisation. I have two questions for those who promote this option. Is it fair for a CHIS who does no more than he is asked by the police to be at risk of prosecution? With that in mind, how often has the CPS considered it to be in the public interest to prosecute a CHIS who has not exceeded his authority? The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, with all his experience, suggested seldom or never. I keep an open mind but wonder whether removing immunity would be a safeguard more apparent than real.
The second way is to provide for prior approval of authorisations by the judicial commissioners of IPCO. I recommended this approach for some other covert powers in my report A Question of Trust, and was glad to see it followed in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. However, context is everything and I will make three comments. Deciding how to task a CHIS, against a nuanced and rapidly changing background of personal relationships and group dynamics, is less obviously within the competence of a judge, or indeed any external person, than a decision to intercept a line or hack a device. Internal, not external, authorisation is provided for by Section 20.1(12) of Canada’s CSIS Act, of which the House has heard mention today, although it is fair to say that some form of external approval for CHIS criminality, whether by judges or lawyers, is required in some circumstances in Australia and the US. Finally, and without being defeatist, it is right to acknowledge that an amendment to require prior judicial approval was heavily defeated in the other place.
That leaves the third way: beefing up oversight by requiring a judicial commissioner to be informed every time a CCA is issued. That solution was adopted in SI 2013/2788, when the spycops revelations first surfaced, to deal with undercover police deployments of less than 12 months.
Having worked intensively with IPCO’s chief inspector for CHIS in the Channel Islands, where I was Investigatory Powers Commissioner until this summer, I have the highest praise for IPCO’s inspection work. Much of it is below the waterline in the form of inspections, oral feedback, classified detailed reports, observations and recommendations requiring speedy action. A sense of it is given publicly at paragraph 5.19 and onwards of IPCO’s March 2020 annual report.
The real-time notification of CCAs to a judicial commissioner would have three further advantages. First, the knowledge that their decision would go straight to the desk of a High Court judge or equivalent would concentrate the minds of authorising officers. Secondly, it would eliminate the gap of up to a year between authorisation and annual inspection, potentially assisting in the termination of any ill-advised authorisations, difficult though that will always be. Thirdly, it would help to promote a culture in which informal advice is sought before an authorisation was issued—something that happens a good deal in practice and is particularly valuable for authorities that do not make much use of CHIS. This third approach is no panacea and will not be strong enough for some, but it deserves at least to be debated and I will table an amendment for that purpose.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, there are few moments of unalloyed joy in politics but being able to endorse the splendid remarks of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham in congratulating my noble friend Lord McLoughlin is one of them. I, too, remember that visit to Cardinal Griffin school in May 1970, over 50 years ago. I, too, remember the schoolboy coming to the Palace of Westminster. I remember him becoming a splendid local Conservative, having a poster with a miner’s hat when he fought his first constituency. I am always amazed that, when I left the House of Commons 10 years ago, he was my Chief Whip. I bid him welcome with all the warmth at my disposal.
It was very splendid also to have a maiden speech from the Front Bench. My noble and learned friend Lord Stewart of Dirleton spoke with an elegiac love of his constituency. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay indicated, the rest of the speech was not entirely at his disposal; nevertheless, he delivered it with a calm rationality that made me feel that we have a true learned friend in our midst.
Having said all that, while putting on record that I believe that the Bill is necessary and support it, I am troubled. We have to look at this in the context of the times. We are, through no desire of anyone, living at the moment in a benign police state. I cannot go out this evening with my son for dinner; I cannot ask him round to my flat nor go to his home with his wife and children. We are in a very difficult situation. We have the Law Commission proposing that remarks made at the dinner table should perhaps be admissible in a court of law in the prosecution of a hate crime. We therefore have to be careful how far we go. That is why I am troubled, as others have said, about the number of agencies that are allowed to have, as it were, crimes committed in their name. I shall want to look at that very carefully in Committee.
I share the concerns of many colleagues about the position of children. Although it may be tempting to use children in dealing with ghastly county lines, we have to be careful about our overall responsibility for our children.
As we go through the Bill, which lends itself to the forensic examination that it needs and deserves in your Lordships’ House, we must be extremely careful. First, how many agencies can take advantage of it? I think that it is too many. Secondly, how is the regulation on the use of children controlled? Thirdly, we have to look carefully at whether there should be specific limits—as there are in Canada, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws—on the type of crimes that we can see committed in the interests of the greater good. That we need to protect our people from terrorism and terrible crimes is self-evident, but we have to be careful how we go.
Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, makes it easy for me to refer to his protégé, the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin. I welcome him to this House and welcome his maiden speech.
I also welcome the Minister. I listened carefully to his speech, and indeed to the speech from my own Front Bench, on why the Bill is needed. I am afraid that I am not as yet convinced. On Monday, this House overwhelmingly expressed its outrage at the Government trying to give themselves statutory immunity from breaching international and national law in, as they call it, a limited and specific sense. Today, the Government now propose giving equivalent protection in criminal law to our own security services and a dozen other state agencies to commit unspecified criminal acts.
Obviously, I appreciate that this is not a new issue; I was a member of the Government when the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 was passed. I remember feeling uneasy about it at the time—I generally did with Home Office initiatives in that era—but I recognised the need for an authorisation framework. Still, this Bill goes much further than that. My noble friend Lord Rosser proposes significant amendments that might make it more palatable to me, but even then I am not yet convinced.
I am not an automatic knee-jerk opponent of the security services and state agencies. I recall many occasions in my life when I have told keen young political activists who complain that the deep state is monitoring them, “Of course they are! That is their job.” I have always felt that society is safer as a result of those agencies; I am glad that they are there. However, the Bill goes beyond the monitoring, surveillance and simple embedding in, and infiltration of, dangerous organisations.
There are issues with the authorisation process itself but I have two main objections. First, the Bill renders such criminal acts legal for all purposes. That appears to mean that victims could not claim compensation in any respect. If, in order to gain trust in an organised crime syndicate by proving himself, a CHIS undertakes a robbery, does that mean that the victim of that robbery is denied not only a criminal process but any compensation or recourse to the criminal compensation scheme because, under this Bill, the action was deemed not criminal? At a minimum, we need to retain or at least describe the right to compensation for victims.
My second main objection relates to the infiltration into political campaigns, particularly trade union ones. As my noble friend Lord Hain said, we know from very recent history that phrases such as “danger to the economic well-being of the UK” or “preventing disorder” can be used to target otherwise legitimate trade union industrial action or political or environmental campaign demonstrations. Such infiltration by police agents has been identified in the past. On occasion, it has been aggravated by agents of the state authorities acting in effect as agents provocateurs—that is, a supposed member persuading his colleagues in the organisation to go further than they would have done previously. Here, we are treating political campaigns on anti-racism, the environment and trade unions in an equivalent way to terrorist organisations. There must be some distinction and some limit to the degree to which we can grant immunity under the Bill.
Unless there are drastic, explicit changes on access to the civil courts, compensation and agents provocateurs, I will not support the Bill.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]
I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, on his excellent maiden speech. He referred to many sports in Dirleton, and I was hoping that he might mention the excellent North Berwick Rowing Club. I think he should have a word with his noble friend— I refer to the noble Earl, Lord Courtown—or with my noble friend Lord Paddick, who spoke third in the debate. I promise that, if he joins us in the House of Lords eight, we will overlook his youth. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, to the House, but he should be aware that the West Derbyshire by-election of 1986, where he narrowly but fairly defeated that outstanding Liberal Chris Walmsley, has not faded from memory in some quarters.
This Bill has some extraordinary features. Suppose an official from the Gambling Commission believes, quite unreasonably and without any basis, that, in his view, it is necessary, in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom, to infiltrate a perfectly lawful organisation—say, a trade association or, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned a moment ago, a trade union. Under this Bill, he may authorise a 16 year-old to commit a criminal act and give him full immunity against criminal prosecution or civil liability, removing any consideration as to whether, even in part, he himself had a criminal intent or was incited to the sort of abuses to which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, referred.
It is obviously right that there should be a framework that is open and transparent to control the exercise of state power to authorise the commission of criminal offences, but it must be a tight framework. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, referred to authorisations that will have strict parameters and be tightly bound—but only by the word of the authoriser of the CHIS, his immediate controller.
I will analyse the scenario I set out. What is the rationale for putting into the hands of an official of the Food Standards Agency, or similar organisations, the extraordinary power to authorise criminal acts? Is it for labelling or pursuing dodgy hamburger vendors? This power should be used in the public interest and only in the pursuit of serious crime by professional criminal investigation agencies.
As for immunities, should not the decision as to what is in the public interest remain with the CPS or the Director of Public Prosecutions and not with the initial authoriser? Why should that official, unchecked, exercise this power on his own subjective belief as to its necessity and proportionality? Surely his belief should be, and be seen to be, reasonable? I agree with my noble friend Lord Beith that, as with ordinary warrants, he should be required to obtain the prior consent of a judge or, as in other covert operations, judicial commissioners. A judge would have the power to interrogate the authoriser to establish that he has a rational base in law for issuing an authorisation. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, there is a duty High Court judge on hand 24 hours a day.
The Bill permits the commission of crime by an agent or CHIS infiltrating a perfectly lawful organisation —for example, a protest group. If such lawful groups need to be infiltrated to ensure public order, it is curious that this Bill should permit the infiltrator to commit crime. I would like to know from the Minister whether an authorisation issued under the Bill could permit a CHIS to act as an agent provocateur, stirring up crime where none exists. This Bill should be limited to national security and the detection and prevention of crime.
However, the most glaring anomaly is that the Bill would permit authorising the CHIS to commit murder, rape or robbery anywhere in the world without any of the limitations set out in other similar jurisdictions—Canada, the US or Australia—and with immunity from prosecution or civil liability, rather than prosecutorial discretion. Is the European Convention on Human Rights a sufficient safeguard? The Minister will find that his colleagues want to scrap it.
This is a very specific question and I would like the Minister to answer it: do the Government concede at last that convention rights bind an agent of the Crown acting outside the jurisdiction in, for example, Europe, the USA or the Republic of Ireland? The Bill should be clear as to what is or is not within its scope, territorially and in substance. In Committee, I hope to pursue safeguards for children, which other noble Lords have addressed, and redress for victims. I am sure there will be many other issues.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My noble and learned friend Lord Garnier will speak next, but this pause gives me the opportunity to remind noble Lords about the advisory four-minute time limit for Back-Bench contributions. This is only advisory, but it would be a courtesy to the large number of Peers who want to contribute. I hope that my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier will set a fine example.
Lord Garnier (Con) [V]
My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Stewart has made both his first appearance at the Dispatch Box and his maiden speech. He spoke kindly and accurately of our noble and learned friend Lord Keen and modestly of himself, but we have already benefited from his being here with us. He is most welcome, and I look forward to meeting him in person before too long. I also congratulate my noble friend Lord McLoughlin on his maiden speech. His work in the other place in government and in opposition over many years, the way he performed it and the content and manner of his speech today suggest to me that we will have much to gain from his arrival here.
This Bill is being debated after the decision of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal last December in the third direction case but before its consideration by the Court of Appeal. Although it has no retrospective effect, it will clear up some of the questions left hanging by that case, which concerned the lawfulness of a secret national security policy apparently authorising Security Service agents to engage in criminal activity, including, according to the claimants, torture and murder.
The facts of any particular operation involving the use of covert human intelligence sources are necessarily kept from the public and even from Parliament. That mystery creates mystique for some and suspicion in others. While the security services can cope with the mystique, some suspicions are better allayed than fomented. I used to think that there was an advantage in keeping things vague so that the Foreign Secretary or Home Secretary and their security advisers could pragmatically, but legitimately, apply their discretion and common sense to the difficult legal and operational problems that come with deploying agents at home or abroad.
In my experience of the senior officers of the security and armed services when I was Solicitor-General, they never wanted to bend or break the law, be it the criminal law, the law governing military action or the laws concerning surveillance and counterterrorism. Indeed, they were meticulous about staying within it, and I really do not think they were just telling me things they thought I wanted or ought to hear. Putting the law into statute would, I once believed, inhibit their ability to take quick decisions and create sclerosis within the chain of command. No one needed reminding not to murder or torture people because it would be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. Intercepting suspected terrorists’ electronic communications was clearly a proportionate interference with their convention rights.
Part of me still thinks that keeping things pragmatically vague is sensible, but I am now persuaded that, even if the operations themselves and the identities of those providing vital information to the security or other services may often have to remain confidential for ever, the law governing their work should not be hidden, largely within the common law, to be revealed only when a judge’s interpretation of the law, often arrived at by necessary implication, is made public, as in the third direction case. It is also right that the government agencies to be covered by this Bill, and some other important questions, are thoroughly scrutinised in Committee.
The security services were put on a statutory footing in the 1990s, and other statutes have followed, but we now need to know what the rules are and to be able to say whether, in a democratic society, we approve of them. Some things must be kept secret, so we need to have confidence in the people who do this work in order that we can trust them, even if we do not know exactly what they are doing. Knowing what is permitted by statute, even if distasteful to some, helps to enhance that confidence. There are some things that, when known to the public, remove suspicion, even if they do not always lead to universal approval, but, in saying that, I do not expect the state to be absolved of all responsibility for its actions. The innocent bystander and his dependants, whose life, limb or livelihood are taken or damaged by someone whom this Bill absolves of particular criminal conduct, should not be left helpless and without remedy.
The preservation of our national well-being sometimes requires us to permit good people to do bad things. Today, especially, we remember that, in war, we justify the doing of terrible things by and to our Armed Forces to protect our freedoms and recognise that, in other fields of national conflict, we must permit that which, on other occasions, we would abhor.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the noble and learned Lord the Minister and congratulate him on his new role, and indeed I welcome the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin.
Many things are said about your Lordships’ House and about what it is to be a patriot today of all days. I cannot imagine the purpose of either if not to defend the rule of law. It is not a question of left-wing or right-wing, or leave or remain. There can be no freedom, security or even democracy without it, and one of its most fundamental principles is that the law of the land must apply to everyone equally.
If we were to introduce one law for agents of the state and another for everyone else, surely lawlessness and tyranny would not be far behind, and I know that no one in your Lordships’ House would wish for that outcome. Yet the gravest dangers to the rule of law do not politely announce themselves. More often than not, they come under cover and with the best of intentions, not least preserving security and even the law itself.
It is said that this Bill seeks to put criminal conduct by covert human intelligence sources on a statutory footing, but in truth—and as the Minister has today acknowledged—it goes a great deal further than that. It replaces our legal status quo, whereby criminal acts in the course of undercover intelligence work are nearly always and rightly forgiven in the public interest, with a complete and advance immunity or licence or golden ticket for a raft of agents against prosecution and civil suit, regardless of the harm caused to our people—including completely innocent people—in the process.
It is important to remember that the overwhelming majority of these agents are not trained officers of our security agencies or police. They necessarily come from the community, including the criminal community. They include extremely troubled, volatile and vulnerable people, including, as we have heard so many times, even children. A public inquiry that has only just begun is hearing how the agents are capable of abuse and even of inciting crime, rather than preventing and detecting it, even under the present arrangements.
We are told not to worry because those issuing these criminal conduct licences, from inside the relevant agencies themselves, must take into account the requirements of the Human Rights Act. I must point out that such an obligation is weaker than the normal obligation on public authorities to comply with them. Further, while human rights bind states and public bodies, they are no substitute for effective criminal law in both protecting and binding individual people by deterring violence—and sexual violence in particular. There is a wealth of case law to that effect.
Some argue that the great dangers in this legislation might be remedied by external or judicial authorisation of criminal conduct, or by limiting the list of agencies or types of crimes. I am far from convinced that anything other than removing the immunity from these authorisations and restoring them to the appropriate position of public interest guidance to agents, prosecutors and courts will suffice. Once more, in the words of former officer Neil Woods:
“As a former ruthless undercover cop, I see many possibilities of this going wrong. This immunity truly changes everything. It invites criminality into a realm uniquely susceptible to it. Once we go down this route, it will be very difficult ever to return.”
I urge your Lordships to heed that stark warning.
Baroness Young of Hornsey (CB) [V]
My Lords, I, too, welcome--albeit remotely—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, and wish him luck in his new role, and I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin.
I am sure that many people accept that the police and security services need to deploy undercover operatives to disrupt terrorist and criminal activity, and we recognise that difficult decisions have to be made regarding operational effectiveness. There is no need for me to elaborate on the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, except to say that the subject matter and nature of the Undercover Policing Inquiry is relevant not least because it reminds us of some of the critical issues raised by the scope, character and potential for harm of inappropriate and inadequately regulated undercover operations.
In the Bill, one area that causes me and many other noble Lords the most concern is the deployment of those under 18 years old—children of 15, 16 or 17—with no stated lower age limit. As the Minister will be aware from the Young review, which I chaired, from the Lammy review, led by the honourable Member for Tottenham, and from all the reports that preceded them, young black men are overrepresented in the criminal justice system and experience disproportionately poor outcomes throughout the system. I fear that racial disparities elsewhere in the CJS will be amplified in respect of the use of covert operatives. Will the noble Baroness the Minister, when she comes to respond to this debate, inform the House of the Home Office’s assessment of the equality impact reviews of the proposed legislation?
As has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Young, and others, drugs shifted around the country via county lines wreak havoc and violence in our communities. Younger and younger children are recruited and of course we long for effective strategies to mitigate the impact of these activities. Gangs groom young children into becoming drug mules, terrifying and traumatising them in the process, turning often vulnerable young people into criminals. Determined youth and social workers do their best, but it is incredibly hard and getting increasingly so to help out here. It appears that the juveniles recruited as intelligence sources are most often 16 or 17, but we have been informed of at least one 15 year-old being used in this way. I find this shocking. Will the Minister accept that not to have a lower age limit for recruiting children carries substantial risks to those already in harmful situations? In any other circumstances, we would be taking steps to protect such children and remove them from such harms.
My own view is similar to that of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and of my noble friend Lady Bull: under-18s should never be used as undercover operatives. I find the whole idea absolutely repugnant rather than uncomfortable. I cannot see how it is legitimate to recruit juveniles as informers and spies in dangerous, violent situations but not to allow 16 year-olds to vote.
Ideally, CCAs for children should be prohibited altogether to limit the risk of serious violations of the rights of the child. At the very least, the Bill should contain an explanation of the exceptional circumstances where it would be appropriate for a child to be given a CCA and of how their welfare would be protected. Appropriate adults should be mandatory, rather than discretionary, for 16 year-olds and 17 year-olds, and a lower age limit should be set.
I have many concerns similar to those of many colleagues who spoke earlier in this debate. Two further concerns are that of immunity from prosecution for those perpetrating criminal acts and the lack of explicit limits on the nature of any criminal act committed; those two are linked, I think. As others have noted, the USA, Canada and Australia place limits on the acts that agents can commit.
The case studies circulated by the Minister yesterday have been referred to. It is interesting that they fall into two categories: hypothetical and real-life. The hypothetical ones are all about the public bodies and do not reveal the extent to which CHIS work with police and are trained. The real-life cases seem straightforward, but can the Minister tell us how the results of those significant prosecutions would be undermined in some way by current legislation and how they would be improved by this piece of legislation? I look forward to debates in Committee.
Lord Walney (Non-Afl) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, it is an incredible honour to address your Lordships’ House for the first time. I have been touched by the kindness and support of the many dedicated staff in this place: Black Rod, the amazing doorkeepers and Garter, not least for his agreement to my title. I am deeply indebted to my two supporters, the noble Lords, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen and Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield, one a former NATO Secretary-General and esteemed former Labour Defence Secretary in the other place, the other the fabled analyst and chronicler of the inner workings of the British state. They were always so generous with their wisdom on the UK’s nuclear deterrent when I was the MP for Barrow-in-Furness. Today, I am honoured and still a little starstruck to count them as my friends.
I also want to mention two friends from opposite sides of the House with overlapping territorial designations to mine. The noble Lord, Lord Hutton of Furness, was my predecessor as MP for Barrow and my former boss in Whitehall. The noble Lord, Lord Cavendish of Furness, has shown me such kindness since I became a Member of Parliament. They are both beacons to me and many others in different ways. The noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, will be greatly missed by this House as he announces his retirement.
To my neighbours on Walney Island, which I am proud to take as my territorial designation, I just say this: you kindly took in this off-comer; you elected me three times, and now I will give you a lifetime of service, raising the particular concerns of the island and the wider area. I will remain a firm advocate of the submarines constructed with your expertise, and I hope to make a contribution in due course on the issue of coastal erosion, which could literally split our wonderful island in two in future decades if left unchecked. That would be unconscionable to the near-11,000 residents of the island and would decimate its unique, cherished natural resources.
I have been determined to use my maiden speech to highlight the need for the UK to do more in defending the rules-based order that underpins the freedoms and values embodied in this Chamber and the other place. Much has already been said on that subject this week, but the threat is far deeper than a particular part of a particular Bill. Our international adversaries are intent, with a whole spectrum of means, on unravelling the system of international order that protects our liberty and our interests abroad. As we remember today the struggle and sacrifice of previous generations so that we can live free, let us recognise that this battle will be our generation’s struggle.
I therefore wondered whether it was right to make my maiden speech in this debate on a Bill whose purposes, as we have heard, are to sanction certain individuals to commit what would otherwise be criminal acts. However, the fact that this process of scrutiny is happening at all, and that a legal framework is being constructed, should be seen as demonstrating the strength of Britain’s commitment to the rule of law as a means of upholding our security.
I was pleased to be asked by the Prime Minister, on standing down from the House of Commons, to advise the Government on aspects of counterterrorism. I listened carefully today to the excellent maiden speech by the Minister, whom I congratulate, and to many others. I have seen the strong backing that this Bill has received from the security services and from the Intelligence and Security Minister. I am happy, therefore, to vote to support it tonight in the knowledge that the many pressing issues that have been raised will see further scrutiny in Committee.
I end by briefly addressing the political journey that has brought me to this place, in this House on these non-affiliated Benches. I am proud of the small contribution that I made to stopping what would otherwise have been inflicted on the British people had the general election last year gone the other way. That has strained some lifelong friendships; indeed, it has led to one or two frosty encounters in the corridors of this place. I am happy now, however, to be given the opportunity to put party politics behind me and start a new chapter. Much of the past few years has been difficult, but it has underlined a central tenet of my faith: no one party and no one group within a party holds a monopoly of wisdom. We are all flawed human beings mostly trying to do our best in a complex and conflicted world. I will always endeavour to do my best in this place and it is deeply humbling to be given that chance.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, I am honoured to follow that excellent and very moving maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Walney. He talked of Walney Island, and I know that area. What he did not mention was that it has an airport built at right angles to the prevailing wind and about as long as this Chamber, so if any noble Lords are thinking of visiting there, they will have a very fun arrival if they go by air.
I have known John, the noble Lord, Lord Walney, for more than 10 years. He is a highly principled man, and I was particularly impressed, first, by his confrontation of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party, which he drove through with great vigour; and secondly by his passionate support for an issue very close to my heart and those of his ex-constituents, which noble Lords heard him mention—the UK’s independent deterrent and nuclear submarines. Neither issue made him popular with the last leader of the Labour Party, but he refused to compromise his beliefs. Rather like his namesake in the 17th century, he was martyred, although I doubt that—unlike his predecessor—he will be beatified by the Pope. The noble Lord, Lord Walney, will be of great value to this House. We already got that from what he said, and I look forward very much to working with him.
The Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, of which I am currently a member, welcomes this Bill. Agents provide invaluable information and play a vital role in identifying and disrupting terrorist plots. Basically, they save the lives of our people. However, can the Minister assure the House that, in putting the existing powers on a statutory basis—which needs to be done because of the legal shenanigans going on at the moment—the Bill does not extend them in any way at all? It is essential that these powers are properly circumscribed and used only where necessary: they have to be proportionate. They should be compatible with the Human Rights Act—let us face it, we are all responsible for ensuring that—and subject to proper oversight.
The Minister will be aware that the Intelligence and Security Committee proposed an amendment to the Bill in the other place relating to parliamentary oversight. I have lost sight of where that has gone; perhaps the Minister will let us know where that proposal stands. The committee clearly knows the agencies very well, but it has also taken evidence—very sensitive evidence—from the police in a number of its inquiries, and from that knowledge would support their use of these powers. I would, however, need convincing that a number of the other authorities really do need these powers.
The Intelligence and Security Committee strongly supports the Government’s decision not to place limits on criminal conduct in the Bill itself. My own operational experience would reinforce that because of the risks it would place on our agents. Clearly, that means even greater emphasis on the need for robust safeguards. I can offer reassurance to the House that the Intelligence and Security Committee has had comprehensive briefings on how these authorisations are used, and we are reassured and satisfied that they are used appropriately by MI5. Will the Minister say, however, what percentage of criminal conduct authorisations—they have been mentioned already—the Investigatory Powers Commissioner will actually examine?
I reiterate that I strongly support this Bill, subject to the caveats I touched on. I have not had time to go into other areas, such as the use of children, but I hope that these things will be investigated in Committee. There is no doubt that these agents save lives and are at great risk themselves. We must be careful not to pass legislation that, with amendments, leads to agents being killed.
Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate all three noble Lords who made their maiden speeches earlier. We will benefit greatly from their experience and expertise. My noble and learned friend Lord Stewart of Dirleton made a dignified and personal speech as well as an accomplished Front-Bench contribution. We are fortunate indeed to have him here; his probity will be an asset, not least in the Bill we are discussing today. His opening speech exemplified that.
I know the noble Lord, Lord Walney, from his time in the House of Commons, where he showed himself to be principled and courageous while serving his constituents well. We saw that in his speech just now. Anyone who takes a geographical designation of a place so ornithologically blessed as Walney Island is off to a good start with me; I know that he and his partner greatly appreciate the benefits of nature there.
I was honoured to be a supporter of my noble friend Lord McLoughlin on his introduction to this place. I can honestly say that it was very much a privilege and a pleasure to act as his deputy in the Chief Whip’s Office in the other place. I endorse entirely the words of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who is another of the best people in this House. My noble friend Lord McLoughlin made a moving speech; one of the few advantages for speaking remotely, for me, is that no one saw me wipe away a tear at his speech. His sage advice and knowledge of parliamentary procedures are exceeded only by his all-round modesty, affability and decency. He was, and is still, held in high regard by all who know him. If some of his advice had been taken by some whom he offered it to, I am sure that recent history might have taken a slightly different course.
My only regret is that I have never succeeded in persuading him about the joys of cricket. I remember him asking me, early on the first day of a five-day test match, who was winning. His response to my reply that it was far too early to know should not be repeated before the watershed, but his love for Derby County Football Club shows that he has a love of sport. I am sure that he will become as popular in your Lordships’ House as he was down the other end of the building.
This Bill is something that we would perhaps rather not have in law, but the world we live in today sadly necessitates these measures. I pay tribute to the courageous men and women who served this country in an unspoken, unseen way in the intelligence services. We owe it to them to give them the necessary powers to undertake that dangerous work. I share concerns about some of the agencies that have been given these powers, although my noble friend’s opening remarks gave me some confidence in those measures—but that is for the other stages of the Bill.
The strength of this Chamber is that it can be relied on ensure that we will give appropriate and proportional authorisation only to those who need it. Therefore, I am happy to allow this Bill to advance in its parliamentary journey and I look forward to further debate on this important measure.
Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]
My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome the Lord Advocate and congratulate him on his first speech. It is good to have another Lord Advocate from Scotland, with its own distinct legal system. I also congratulate the other two noble Lords on their excellent speeches.
I warmly support the idea of putting the power of these matters on a statutory basis. I wish to raise three points: first, the role of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner; secondly, the process for immunity; thirdly, the position of bodies other than the security services and the police. The observations that I wish to make on those three points have been drawn from my own experience of sitting on a large number of cases involving CHIS, the setting up of what is now the Mitting inquiry—formerly conducted by Sir Christopher Pitchford—and the setting up of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office. One of the difficulties in making observations is that, in all the hearings on which I sat and when setting up the Mitting inquiry, either the information provided to me was in circumstances of the strictest confidence or the hearings were closed.
It seems to me that three issues require further detailed consideration by this House. First, I would like to understand the reasons why we cannot follow the interception regime, with the IPC having a clear role in approving in advance except when urgency prevents. Obviously, it would have been of great advantage to know what had happened in the many years being investigated by the Mitting inquiry, but I can bring some of my own experience to bear and say that there are strong reasons for a very tight regime, particularly where the authorisation would go hand in hand with immunity. A regime for reporting a few days thereafter, put forward in the excellent speech by my noble friend Lord Anderson, would obviously need detailed consideration but, before we get to that stage, it is necessary to see whether there is justification for moving from a pre-authorisation system. There are real difficulties if the IPC says that the authorisation was wrong.
The second point can be put more briefly: I would like to see the justification for the change from the position where the CPS makes its decision on immunity. There are strong constitutional reasons for the CPS, an entirely independent prosecutor, making decisions on whether someone should be prosecuted. That is the proper constitutional route and entirely consistent with the rule of law. It would be inimical to the rule of law for immunity to be granted by an agency of the Executive, and it would be a bad example to other states.
Finally, if powers are to be granted in broad terms to the police and security services, I would like to understand the justification for granting these powers to the other bodies. It is important that these issues are examined carefully to protect confidence in the security services. We too easily forget the damage that can be done when officers, even fairly senior ones, do not do things properly. The damage, from my own experience in such cases, can be considerable indeed.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate the three noble Lords who made excellent, eloquent maiden speeches today in the House. I look forward to working with them in the period ahead. I pay tribute to the security forces, members of the Security Service and all those involved in counterterrorism for the great sacrifices that they make in defence of our country—acts of heroism that will never be told and suffering for the greater good of society that will never see the light of day. I am grateful for the briefing that I received in the other place in the run-up to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal case, which brought home to me just how important their work is.
As has been said, this Bill is about keeping the country secure and saving lives. It puts on to the statute book what already happens and has been happening for a long time. Lest anyone should doubt the need for CHIS—or agents, as they are better known—we only have to look at some of the statistics outlined by the Minister in the other place about the number of arrests, of firearms, class A drugs and illicit cash recovered, and of potential terrorist attacks thwarted by MI5 and counterterrorism in recent years—27 between March 2017 and today, which is nine each year. Those are staggering figures.
While there have been incredible advances in electronic and digital surveillance, we know that in many cases, such methods of intelligence-gathering are simply not enough in themselves. The Bill addresses participation in criminal activity of agents and legislates for robust, independent safeguards and oversight. The Government have set out clearly why this legislation is necessary to lift and remove any legal uncertainty. There must be no doubt in the mind of a handler, the agent themselves or the organisation responsible about the legal status of what an agent has been ordered to do.
Being from Northern Ireland, my experience as a Member of Parliament for Belfast North for more than 18 years has brought home to me the importance of the proper use of agents in combating terrorism. The recent report of the Intelligence and Security Committee illustrates the very serious threat of terrorism that still pertains in Northern Ireland, where the threat level is set at “severe”. Without covert agents, the safety and security of citizens in that part of the United Kingdom, as well as elsewhere, would be gravely impaired. Often agents in Northern Ireland have had to join an illegal paramilitary organisation, or people within those organisations have had to undertake, at great risk, activities which have been of enormous benefit to the state. These acts are, of course, illegal under normal circumstances, but it is a clear example of what would warrant a criminal conduct authorisation.
Of course, such authorisations must always be for precise and specific purposes, and the Bill sets out very clearly three such purposes. I welcome the fact that the Bill states that at all times there must be compliance with the Human Rights Act. The role of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner is also set out. Robust oversight is crucial, and I welcome the unfettered access that is permitted under the Bill to all documents and information. However, we need to examine carefully in Committee the organisations that are covered in the Bill, and I look forward to discussion in Committee on that. This is about saving lives. It is a sad fact of life that agents are necessary, and I fully support the Government at Second Reading.
Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the three maiden speeches. In particular, as a fellow member of the club of those who made their maiden speech at the Dispatch Box, I can imagine what the Minister was feeling when he made his maiden speech. I wish him well. The noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, a friend from the Commons, treated me really well when he was the most junior of Ministers in the 1990s and I went to him with constituency cases. As for my noble friend Lord Walney, I sat out the last election—I was on the dark side, in hospital—but I understand he performed a national service, and I welcome him to the Lords.
I am neither a lawyer nor a crime expert: I leave that to others. During my time as a Minister at MAFF and Defra, and as chair of the Food Standards Agency, I was from time to time informed of criminal issues relating to activity undermining food supply and food safety. One thing I can say for certain is that the police were never interested. Yet food is our largest manufacturing sector, we import 50% of what we eat and we have large exporting companies. The scope for criminal activity is very substantial. In a multi-billion-pound food industry, the risk of damage, serious illness and death is very clear. The simplistic view that economic well-being is not connected to serious crime or protection of national security is not one I accept. I therefore do not support the view of the Joint Committee on Human Rights in this respect; so, in general, I support the Bill.
I do not think I was aware of the term “CHIS” until I served on a RUSI panel in 2014-15, the Panel of the Independent Surveillance Review. I have now read several briefings and, in the main, think of a CHIS as someone who is not an employee of the police or security services, but an outside, undercover informer or agent. They may be motivated by a mixture of reasons, not all of which show them to be the nicest of people, but they offer a service that can be valuable and impossible to obtain elsewhere. I sat in on a briefing a few days ago, and I can see there are differences between those who seek prior judicial approval of actions authorised under the Bill and others, “the CHIS runners”, who see very practical issues, including issues of timing, as a key element in ruling this out. I shall be very keen to see the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich.
I do not see the benefit, by the way, of listing crimes which should not be authorised; in fact, I see it as quite negative. It would, of course, help the Government’s case if it were made crystal clear that the UK Government are not abolishing our Human Rights Act, nor leaving the European Convention on Human Rights. The Minister needs to address this, as it will influence decisions on amendments, and nobody trusts the Government at the present time. Our position on the Human Rights Act and the Convention has to be made absolutely clear.
The letter from the Minister on 27 October and the Explanatory Notes say and imply that the Bill simply puts onto a statutory basis that which happens now, and no more. The message is that this is not new activity but a continuation of existing practice, but is that correct? The note from the Bar Council questions that claim, as have some speeches this afternoon. Is there a widening of the separation of powers that exists at present with regard to prosecutions? We need answers to these points in Committee.
I started by saying that I support the wide view of potential damage to the nation. This means that I can support the list of relevant authorities set out in Clause 2. I believe that those people who, for some decades now, have operated a system on the dark side of openness, will see the Bill as a better way of operating in the 21st century. It is our role to see that Parliament likewise sees it as a better system that remains workable and keeps the public safe.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con) [V]
We have had three distinguished maiden speeches this afternoon. First, I welcome my noble friend Lord McLoughlin. The Cardinal Griffin School in Cannock has had a lot of airtime today, but I can tell him that when I visited the school as part of the Peers in Schools programme, there was a large photograph—one might almost say a dominating photograph—in the entrance hall of the school, a fitting tribute to his long and distinguished career in public life. I also congratulate my noble and learned friend on his distinguished opening speech. He reminded us that the underlying purpose of the Bill is to assist in maintaining and building the safety of the citizens of this country: as such, it has my in-principle support. However, it is a support that comes not without limitation: the use of the words “necessary and proportionate” remind us of those limitations.
What are my concerns, which I hope we can explore in Committee? The first is the list of relevant authorities. I share the remarks of several noble Lords about this. I would only add to what has already been said by saying that the greater the number of authorised bodies, some of which may use these powers only rarely, the greater the risk must be of misuse. The second is the extent to which the provisions of the Bill extend outside the United Kingdom. Geographical distance carries its own temptations and dangers, not least in the inevitable limitations on the ability to investigate and follow up fully where matters may have gone astray. My third point concerns what I can best describe as mission creep. I currently chair the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House. Our committee has been increasingly concerned about the use of skeleton Bills, where most of the legislative impact will be achieved through regulation. This is undesirable on many levels, not least because regulations have a lower level of scrutiny because, as is well known in the House, they are unamendable. Parliament is left with the nuclear option of complete rejection, a course which the House is often, understandably, reluctant to take.
As I read the Bill, there are at least three areas where mission creep could take place, but there may well be others. However, as I see it, by regulation the Secretary of State, first, may change the list of the bodies that can give CCAs; secondly, change the basis on which those authorisations can be granted; and, thirdly, change the individuals within the relevant authorities that can give CCAs. All of that is done by regulation. It seems that, taken together, these powers could quite radically shift the basis on which the Bill is constructed and on which it will operate.
My final point concerns the investigation of cases where matters have not developed as hoped and expected, and here I take up the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Anderson. I note the additional remit of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, and of course those powers are welcome, but I see nothing about urgency. Speed of innovation is critical to achieving a proper outcome before waters, which may well sometimes be deliberately muddied, close over the case. I have been an officer of the All-Party Group on Extraordinary Rendition for many years, and the group has watched as successive Governments—no party has clean hands on this—have ducked and dived. We have to make sure that these sorts of cases cannot arise with this Bill, although it has my in-principle support.
Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a governor of Coram, part of which includes the Coram Children’s Legal Centre. When I saw that there were going to be three maiden speeches today, my thoughts wandered to whether there is a collective noun for maidens, and the answer is yes: it is a rage of maidens. I am glad to say that we saw none of that today. I think that everyone is saving it for the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill.
My remarks will concentrate on the use of children and vulnerable juveniles under the age of 18 as CHIS—a subject that many other noble Lords have referred to. Understandably, this is a highly sensitive area. I suspect the Government may say that since the number of children and young people used for this purpose is extremely small, since existing safeguards are being reinforced in this Bill and in the revised code of practice, which is going through a consultation process, and since the level of criminal activity in areas such as child sexual exploitation and county lines drug activities continues to rise, the use of juvenile CHIS must be a necessary evil and is, in fact, a public duty. However, if one follows that line of argument, one can see that the temptation for legal authorities to expand their use would be quite strong.
As I considered what I was going to say today, I was struck by an uncomfortable parallel as I thought of the faded black-and-white photographs and flickering cine film of German boys in 1945 being pressed into military service as a hopeless last attempt to resist the allied forces. The use of juvenile CHIS could be seen as evidence of the failure of our state to prevent the criminal activities into which they have been drawn. The evidence strongly suggests that those individuals who are candidates to be juvenile CHIS are often vulnerable, traumatised and acclimatised to a world in which their own freedom of choice and inability to tell right from wrong leave them open to influencing and manipulation. If we reluctantly accept that using a small number of these children in this way is a necessary evil, what can we do to put in the most comprehensive safeguards possible?
First, we are dealing, and will continue to deal, with a very small number of cases. This would make treating them in a particularly comprehensive way much more achievable than with a larger number. Secondly, please could the Government consider very seriously the eminently sensible suggestion of the noble and learned lord, Lord Judge—who, unfortunately, is not able to speak today—for a dual-lock approach such that in addition to the assistant chief constable who must currently authorise a deployment, we add a judicial commissioner with specialist knowledge and training who must also always be involved? Thirdly, could we in addition mandate a procedure such that, at the end of each deployment, the assistant chief constable and judicial commissioner undertake a comprehensive audit to assess the history of the deployment, its outcomes in all areas with a particular focus on the juvenile involved, and an assessment of any and all the lessons learned?
The Minister will be aware that she may be faced with a range of amendments in Committee dealing with child and juvenile CHIS deployments. With her usual courtesy and patience, I know she will be open to working with your Lordships to try to see how we can authorise such deployments with forensic care and an overriding focus on the best interests of the child.
Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]
My Lords, in the short time available I will concentrate on Clause 2, which details the authorities able to authorise criminal conduct. The list of bodies included will probably surprise many people, as the justification for the Bill is usually given in terms of serious organised crime and terrorism, and the reason given for why there is no prior authorisation is the imminent danger and urgency of the potential crime. As we have heard, however, the Bill will apply to many bodies. I shall refer to just two of those agencies—the Food Standards Agency and the Environment Agency—and ask whether they need the power to authorise CHIS activity without prior judicial approval and why they need the level of immunity for their actions granted in the Bill.
The Food Crime Strategic Assessment 2020 states:
“There is minimal evidence of any significant involvement of more broadly active Organised Crime Groups … being involved in food crime taking place in the UK”.
The agency’s Manual for Official Controls on enforcement states that authorised officers,
“must not try to get someone to act as an informer or obtain information in an undercover way”.
It therefore seems that the FSA does not want or need these powers.
The Environment Agency says that it would authorise the use of the powers in the Bill only,
“when it is absolutely necessary, proportionate and with great care and scrutiny”.
That surely would give time for judicial approval. However, what the waste disposal industry in general wants is for the agency’s current powers to be used effectively. A lawyer in the field said that the Environment Agency already has the legislative arsenal to hit these criminals, it just needs to use them.
Can the Minister justify why the agencies should be able to grant immunity to members of the public to act illegally without any judicial oversight, but merely on the subjective assertion that they believe it to be necessary? Can she give an example of when a CHIS has been prosecuted after being authorised by one of these agencies? My understanding is that the current test of public interest has protected such activity. So why do they need specific immunity?
Secondly, will the Minister clarify whether members of the public who are damaged during the course of activities covered by immunity will be entitled to compensation? There is genuine concern that immunity will prevent citizens from holding these agencies to account, not because they are fighting terrorism or serious organised crime, but because they have unnecessarily been included in the Bill.
When civil liberties are put in jeopardy there must be a very clear case for it. Many other speakers have expressed their doubts that the Bill can be accepted as its stands. Certainly, the inclusion of the long list of agencies is an additional cause for concern which must be addressed in Committee.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I too congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, for his presentation of the Bill this afternoon, while being in at the deep end, as it were, at the Dispatch Box. I also congratulate my noble friend Lord McLoughlin, who I have worked with outside of Westminster on other issues and for whom I have great respect. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Walney, for a very passionate speech—as passionate a speech as we will probably ever hear in this House.
I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak at the Second Reading of the Bill, which I strongly support. I am afraid that we live in a very real world of terrorism and organised crime. It is, sadly, omnipresent. Criminals deal in any commodity that will give them a financial return. It can be fraud, drugs, people trafficking—whatever. They have no qualms as to where they make their money so we need to be ahead of the game. It is therefore the duty of Parliament to give our security services and law enforcement agencies as many tools as we can to counter terrorism and organised crime.
I believe that this Bill, which provides an express power to authorise covert human intelligence sources to participate in conduct that would otherwise constitute a criminal offence, is long overdue. I say this as someone who has been a member of the Counter Terrorism Command at the Metropolitan Police. I was also a member of the National Crime Squad, the forerunner of today’s National Crime Agency, where I ran a number of such operations. Some aspects of the Bill are clearly unpalatable to Members of your Lordships’ House but it is a Bill that, at long last, recognises the need to provide a statutory power to authorise CHIS to participate in criminal conduct when it is deemed necessary and proportionate to do so.
Although I support the Bill, I want to highlight a couple of issues that are clearly of concern. Human rights issues are paramount but so is our duty of care to all the actors in any CHIS operation. Any authority in its breadth needs to take notice of the practical issues in order to protect the agent. During an operation, a suggestion by the targets to the operative to commit an offence will come in real time and, in all probability, when he or she is out of contact with their handler. The operative needs to know exactly what the limitations of his or her criminal conduct are. There is no provision for retrospective authority, and that creates real difficulty in that the type of conduct suggested may differ from or exceed what has been authorised. For the operative to maintain his or her cover, authority may therefore need couching in terms that allow some discretion as to the precise scope of the remit. This is not to say that an agent has carte blanche to do whatever he or she wishes but there must, for practical reasons, be a level of flexibility built into the system. At present, I am unable to detect that in the Bill or, indeed, the codes of practice. Any illegal conduct will, of course, require justification at a later criminal trial, and it goes without saying that any breach of the absolute rights contained in the ECHR can never be permitted.
The use of children has been much exercised today. It is unpleasant—there is no doubt about that—but at times, in this very real world, I contend that it is necessary, particularly with issues that have been mentioned, such as county lines, paedophilia and child trafficking. If it has a long-term benefit to other children, I consider that that makes it necessary. Also much exercised today is the level of authority and why members of the judiciary should not be involved in the process. Some might say that it introduces a new level of unwanted bureaucracy. I agree with that. The Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office provides comprehensive independent oversight of the use of investigatory powers as outlined in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. That oversight includes the inspection and authorisation of the use of these powers.
In conclusion, I have some reservations on the public bodies issue. I agree that police could fulfil some of those actions when required. I very much look forward to Committee and further consideration of the Bill.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, and the noble Lords, Lord McLoughlin and Lord Walney, on their excellent maiden speeches. I had the pleasure of welcoming the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, in my capacity as lord president on the very threshold of his career at the Scottish Bar when he was admitted to the Faculty of Advocates in 1993. He has come a long way since then, further than we would have dared to contemplate on that day. It is a real pleasure for me to welcome him once again and to wish him well now that he takes on his new responsibilities as Advocate-General for Scotland.
It has occurred to me, as I have been reading and thinking about the Bill and the dangerous nature of the activities that it refers to, that I have led a very sheltered life. I have not been involved in any way with supervision of the work of the intelligence services, but I have had something to do with torture. When I was working here as a Law Lord, I was a member of the Appellate Committee in two cases that raised issues about it. One was the Pinochet case, in which we had to consider the reach of the UN Convention against Torture. The other was under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The question was whether our courts could rely in terrorism cases on information provided to us by agents from overseas that might have been obtained by torture.
As Lord Bingham said in the latter case, the fundamental nature of the prohibition against torture requires member states to do more than avoid the practice. It is not enough to say that I did not do it, I was not there, I did not see it happening or even that for some very good reason resort to it was necessary. It requires member states to do everything in their power to prevent and avoid it. The torture convention, we must remember, is breached by any act by which severe pain or suffering is inflicted to obtain information or as punishment by or at the instigation or with the consent or acquiescence of a person acting in an official capacity. Article 3 of the ECHR is at least as wide as that.
The reference in new Section 29B to the authorisation of criminal conduct by persons designated for the purposes of that section, and thus acting in an official capacity, seems to fall within the ambit of these provisions. The conditions mentioned in Section 29B(4) and the obligation merely to take account of the Human Rights Act in Section 29B(7) do not go nearly far enough with regard to this particular crime. We need to be very careful—ought it not to be made clear somewhere and somehow that participation in any way whatever in acts of torture will never be authorised? I am not suggesting this should expressly be mentioned as an exception in the statute but somehow, somewhere, a solution to this problem needs to be found.
Of course, to raise that question begs the question of whether we should go further. The right to life in Article 2 of the ECHR is also unqualified. At the very least, clear guidance needs to be read into the code as to when, if ever and for what purposes, participation in murder could be authorised. I also find the idea that children might be authorised to participate in torture or crimes of such gravity—by no means unimaginable given the way county lines operate—deeply disturbing for all the reasons mentioned a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool. I am sure the Minister will take his comments and his suggestions very seriously.
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I very much agree with the comments about torture that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, just made. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has just published its report on the Bill, and my comments are based largely on the evidence sessions and the final report.
I say at the outset that it is clearly welcome that the authorisation of criminal conduct by covert human intelligence sources should be put on a statutory footing. The justification is that through covert sources terrorist attempts have been prevented and lives have been saved, class A drugs, firearms and ammunition have been seized, and child sexual exploitation has been thwarted. All that is important, and that is the benefit of this Bill.
On the other hand, there have been some shocking instances of undercover activity in the past which should never be allowed to happen again. For example, there was the murder of Pat Finucane in Northern Ireland with the apparent complicity of undercover agents and, more recently, the surveillance of the Lawrence family after the racist murder of their son Stephen. It is quite unacceptable that a family such as that, victims of a most horrible crime, should be put under police surveillance. There are other incidents in the past, such as during the miners’ strike at the Orgreave coking plant.
As it stands, the Bill leaves open the possibility of serious crimes being committed through the granting of powers to authorise crimes more widely. That risks violating human rights, which surely means we have a responsibility to add many safeguards to the Bill. It should indicate a list of certain types of offences that should simply not be authorised. I am told that, if we had that list—as the Minister said at the outset—it would alert criminals to the way in which they can identify whether there is an undercover person working in their organisation. I think the safeguards can be built in; it has been done elsewhere, such as in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act. If it can be done there, we can surely adopt it as well.
I share the concerns about children. Children must surely be part of this covert process only in exceptional circumstances.
Extending authorisations to situations where there are no criminal threats risks unjustified interference in the activities of trade unions and other legitimate activists, and can affect the right to free expression and free assembly. In passing, I mention the criticism that senior members of the Government have made of “activist lawyers”; are they to be put under this sort of surveillance? I hope not.
The Bill will go way beyond the authorisation of criminal conduct by the security and intelligence services and the police. The power to authorise conduct should be restricted to public authorities whose core function is protecting national security and fighting serious crime. That should not include the Environment Agency, HMRC, the DHSC, the FSA, the Gambling Commission and others. It is also unacceptable for the Bill to provide authorisation of crime with fewer safeguards than exist at the moment for phone-tapping or the authorisation of search warrants. Those require a preliminary process, which is surely a safeguard which should be applied to the authorisation of crime. There should be prior judicial approval, except for urgent cases.
Finally, I am concerned about the victims and civil liability. I appreciate why this is a difficult area, but we should at least include provision for the indemnification of victims, who should be able to obtain compensation for losses suffered as a result of authorised crime.
Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate my noble and learned friend on his clear and comprehensive maiden speech. He opened today’s debate on a crucial issue of national interest, but also gave the first of three excellent maiden speeches. The others were from my noble friend Lord McLoughlin, who, like me, had the pleasure of serving as chairman of the Conservative Party, and the noble Lord, Lord Walney, whose moving and emotional speech I fully understand and resonate with. It is not easy taking on your own party, colleagues and friends on an issue of principle.
Turning to the Bill, no one can reject the importance of CHIS or the need to protect them. No one can doubt the importance of putting existing practices, the status quo, on a statutory footing. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, based on his real experience in this area, the status quo has rarely caused issues. I therefore support this Bill in principle, to the extent that we have a statutory basis for the current position.
I agree that we need to place a shield in front of CHIS, but we must be careful not to place a sword of blanket immunity in their hands or the hands of those who authorise, especially when the scope of those who can authorise is so widely drafted in this Bill. I ask my noble and learned friend to hear and heed the very personal and powerful contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Accountability tempers excess, and in this case appropriate authorisation and oversight provide the necessary accountability.
I note what the Bill—and my noble and learned friend in opening the debate—said about our commitment to the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights, but I am sure that he too, in the back of his mind, has concerns about much of the political debate around the Government’s commitment to both. We heard today from noble Lords on torture, murder and sexual offences. If we are clear which activities cannot and must not in any circumstances be authorised because doing so would put us in breach of convention obligations and rights, surely that must be in the Bill. I cannot accept that to do so would simply tip off criminals, terrorists or others, as my noble and learned friend said; as he and other noble Lords will know, those who operate in these gangs and terrorist organisations are far more sophisticated and already prepared for what they may see as potential CHIS activity. To this end I endorse the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws.
I look forward to supporting the principle of this Bill and the Government, but will make sure that I work with noble Lords across the House to ensure that this Bill protects covert human intelligence sources in a manner consistent with hard-fought human rights and the rule of law.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the three new Peers and congratulate them on their maiden speeches. I look forward to meeting them in future, perhaps bumping into them in corridors some time and setting them straight on a few of the issues in this Bill. The Bill is about granting immunity for crimes to criminals whom the Government employ. I will raise five issues today, though I am sure there will be more in future.
I start by highlighting that many victims of undercover policing are currently, finally, giving evidence to the Undercover Policing Inquiry, which is exploring systematic abuses by undercover policing units over a period of 40 years. It is therefore regrettable that the Government are bringing this piece of legislation forward before any lessons have been learned. More can be learned from the public inquiry, so will the Minister undertake to bring forward further legislation in future to deal with any recommendations coming out of it?
Secondly, I want to dispel any notion that this legislation is simply regularising and codifying the status quo. This is simply not true. Most significantly, there is currently no blanket immunity granted to undercover state operatives. There are legal defences which can be relied on, and prosecutors can and do decide that it is not in the public interest to prosecute undercover operatives. However, this legislation seeks to replace that with a blanket system of legal immunity which would be self-administered by the agencies themselves. This undermines victims’ rights and gives them no legal redress when they are harmed by undercover operatives.
Thirdly, there are no limits in the Bill to the criminality that can be authorised. The Government’s response is that the Human Rights Act would prevent these types of crime; even if that is true, it remains this Government’s stated intention to repeal the Human Rights Act. Can the Minister make very clear what the Government’s proposals to change the Human Rights Act are and how they will interact with the Bill? The Bill allows the Secretary of State to place limits, by regulation, on what conduct can be authorised, so the Government have already explicitly conceded in the drafting of this legislation that there is a need for restrictions on what can be authorised. The Joint Committee on Human Rights said it best in paragraph 42 of its report on this Bill:
“The Government should not introduce unclear and ambiguous laws that would, on their face, purport to authorise state-sanctioned criminality that would lead to serious human rights violations such as murder, sexual offences and serious bodily harm.”
Noble Lords can see that we have a problem here.
One does not have to be a human rights lawyer to realise that the Government are not allowed to authorise people to commit such grievous crimes. Parliament should place limits on the face of the Bill. In particular, we must prohibit the use of government agents as agents provocateurs who infiltrate legitimate political campaigns or trade union groups and disrupt their activities or cause them to commit criminal acts.
Fourthly, on the issue of child spies, which I have spoken on many times, I think it is dangerous, unethical and cruel, and I would prohibit it.
Fifthly, I am very concerned about the overlaps of this Bill with already existing legal processes: for example, the risk that authorisation under this Bill could bypass some of the legal safeguards, like search warrants or phone-tapping authorisation, or authorise conduct that interferes with legal processes, such as tampering with evidence, contempt of court or perjury, which could all be argued to be necessary and proportionate.
I look forward to working with other noble Lords across the House to significantly amend this legislation. I believe that if we cannot amend it significantly, then it must be voted against in its entirety.
Baroness Blower (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Bill before your Lordships today has a great many flaws. A case could be made that the Government should simply look at it again and think again. It has been said that the Bill is merely, but importantly, to put on a statutory footing practice which has hitherto operated in the shadows. Alas, as currently framed, the Bill does not fulfil that function, as the Minister himself said. Rather, it seeks to confer immunity from prosecution for criminal conduct. Other noble Lords have argued this point with distinction, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti.
I preface my remarks today by stating that I do, of course, wish to live in a well-regulated society. I therefore accept the need for elements of covert activity in some well-defined circumstances. However, I also want to live in a society in which a high priority is placed on concern for people who are vulnerable, possibly due to a range of circumstances, one of which is the simple fact of being a child.
The UK Government signed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in April 1990, and it came into force in January 1992. In 2010, the then Government published a report on how legislation underpins the implementation of the UN convention, given that all policy and practice must comply with it.
Children are not the only vulnerable people who may become CHIS, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Bull. However, I propose to confine myself simply to remarks about children. Such children as are recruited will have engaged in risky and quite possibly illegal behaviours, and will therefore be in need of help, support and protection. On this, I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham. I am aware that the High Court has determined that it may be appropriate to use children where the welfare of the child could be protected, though it is hard for me to see how putting children in harm’s way could be considered to comply with Article 3 of the UNCRC, which provides that
“In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private … welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.”
It is indeed extremely difficult to see how authorities as listed would be able to fulfil the obvious duty of care owed to children if authorities themselves are authorising, or perhaps thereby encouraging, children to commit criminal offences, notwithstanding the reference by the Minister to the safeguards in the uprated guidance. I concur entirely with the briefing from Justice in the view that CCAs for children should be explicitly and expressly excluded. Unless such exclusions are in place, there is the risk of violating both domestic and international law.
CHIS will continue to be necessary in well-defined circumstances. However, this Bill does not put on a statutory footing existing practice, and it does allow for the continuing use of children. The Bill is in serious need of amendment. It should also be the opportunity to put beyond doubt that children should not be used as CHIS, and in this I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Young.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, has withdrawn from this debate, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
My Lords, I would like to add my congratulations to our three new noble Lords who have made their maiden speeches. I warmly welcome the noble Lord, Lord Walney, to the House and congratulate him on his maiden speech today, which was very heartfelt and personal. He will be a very welcome addition, having served with such distinction in the other place. My noble friend Lord McLoughlin will remember that he was my first Whip when I was first elected to the other place in 1997. I set particular challenges, as I think I was the last MP to serve as a dual mandate MEP at the same time, so I am grateful to him for his kindnesses to me at that time.
I would like to pay a particular welcome to—
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but we are struggling to hear her in the Chamber. If she could perhaps speak a bit closer to the microphone, that might help.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
Thank you.
I would like to pay a particular warm welcome to my noble and learned friend Lord Stewart of Dirleton, and say what a lovely part of the world he lives in. My father partly grew up in North Berwick, and my grandfather had a pharmacy there, so it is an area with which I am extremely familiar. I would like to join him in paying tribute to his predecessor. I am sure he will serve the House with distinction in his new office, and I look forward to working with him on this Bill.
I have a number of questions that I would like to explore both today and, more particularly, in Committee. In particular, I would like to explore a point raised by my right honourable friend Dr Julian Lewis, who of course is chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee at the moment. He said:
“What we are now saying is that they are not breaking the law, rather than, as in the past, that they were breaking the law, but that it was against the public interest to prosecute.”
And, he asks:
“Why the reason for that change?”—[Official Report, Commons, 5/10/20; col. 655.]
I would like to preface all my remarks with that question, because it would help me understand, in particular, the need for the Bill and why the Bill is coming forward at this time.
I would also like to particularly press my noble friend the Minister, when she sums up the debate, on the inclusion of new agencies. I have some sympathy with the background to this: I served as chairman of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in 2012-13, at the time of the “horsegate” scandal. This was a fraud, passing off horsemeat as beef; it was a multi-million pound criminal scam. So I can understand why the Government are seeking to empower the Food Standards Agency to do more investigations than previously, as it really was better done by the FSA than perhaps the City of London Police at that time.
Equally, the Environment Agency has been given a further power, and I would like to understand, in particular, how that will be used and to ensure that it will not be used beyond the remit set out in the Bill today, particularly for the purposes for which it is necessary. Fly-tipping and other offences are obviously on the increase, and we perhaps do need these powers, but I would like to understand them.
I would also like to understand what the role of the local authorities will be, presumably in working closely with the Food Standards Agency and the Environment Agency and their CHIS agents in performance of the duties under this Bill, and to what extent they might be covered by the Bill.
I also share the concern expressed by others on the better protection for children acting as CHIS under the Bill, and I look forward to exploring these issues during the passage of the Bill.
Lord Hendy (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I add my congratulations to the three noble Lords who made their maiden Speeches today and add my welcome to them. I cannot agree to a Bill which authorises the state to grant unlimited immunity for future crimes yet to be committed by its agents. That is not consistent with the rule of law. I have no problem with the CPS discretion to excuse crimes after the event, subject to clear criteria, but today I wish to make four other points.
I begin by declaring an interest. I represent a number of trade unions in the undercover police inquiry. Evidence began yesterday. The inquiry will investigate the practice of undercover policing since 1968. My first point is to ask why the Government cannot wait even for the evidence to be given, let alone for the inquiry to report its conclusions, before introducing this Bill. By failing to wait, they choose to dismiss the obvious contribution the inquiry could make to shaping the Bill.
Secondly, under proposed new subsection (5)(c), a crime can be authorised by a CHIS if it is deemed necessary
“in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom.”
As my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lord Whitty have observed, this undefined and ominous phrase is clearly capable of being interpreted as encompassing lawful industrial action which, as most industrial action does, has adverse economic consequences. Agents can be authorised to commit crimes to “prevent, minimise or disrupt” legitimate trade union activity. That is totally unacceptable. Trade unions and industrial action ceased to be criminal in this country 150 years ago. Trade unions and their activities are also protected by international law, not least by Article 11 of the European convention.
Thirdly, one justification for the Bill is said to be that it will only regularise present practice. If so, the material so far made public by the inquiry provides no comfort as to such practices. I say no more of the practice by which 30—yes, 30—women were groomed into largely long-term, intimate relationships with undercover police for the purposes of providing them with cover than that those who have so far sued have obtained the admission from the Metropolitan Police that those relationships were
“abusive, deceitful, manipulative and wrong”.
In relation to trade unions, we have learned that Special Branch had an industrial intelligence unit which maintained, for no apparent lawful purpose, files which contained information gathered by undercover officers with the special demonstration squad who penetrated both unions and rank and file campaigners. Some of the information in the unit’s files was then supplied by police to the blacklist maintained by the Economic League, so barring trade unionists from obtaining jobs.
My final point is that, currently, an undercover officer could not be instructed by superiors to commit a crime. If the Bill becomes law, an officer will be refusing to obey a lawful instruction if she or he refuses to commit a crime when instructed to do so by a superior who has obtained authorisation. That will be a disciplinary offence, potentially justifying dismissal. That is a powerful argument against prior authorisation.
Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB) [V]
Let me start by congratulating our three maiden speakers on their excellent speeches. Like others who have spoken today, I welcome the intention behind the Bill. Putting on to a statutory basis the authorisation of otherwise criminal acts committed by covert human intelligence sources is now clearly necessary. It is in the interests of both the agents themselves and of those authorising them to engage in what would otherwise be criminal conduct. However, as the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights says, it is essential that such authorisation is
“subjected to careful constraints, exacting scrutiny and effective oversight”,
and those are the areas on which I wish to focus today.
First, there is the scope of the criminal conduct authorisation. Authorising a CHIS to commit murder, torture or sexual violence is pretty hard to swallow. I recognise the difficulties and potential dangers in trying to draw the line between, as it were, crime and abhorrent crime, and I recognise that in difficult and dangerous circumstances, lines can be crossed, but I remain to be convinced that drawing such a line and excluding the gravest crimes from blanket authorisation cannot and should not be attempted. The arguments of my noble and learned friend Lord Hope were highly relevant here.
I raise one specific point. The Government have argued that there is no need to include explicit limits on, for example, murder and torture, because these are prohibited anyway under the Human Rights Act. As I understand it, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, has argued—perhaps I am wrong here—the Government have argued separately that the Human Rights Act should not apply to abuses committed by their agents. I look forward to the Minister’s comments on that point.
I make one final point. If I were an authorising officer, however highly I had been trained and however carefully I had absorbed the code of conduct—which I have indeed read—I would want as much cover and protection as I could get. The arguments for and against prior authorisation clearly need to be examined in Committee, and I certainly see merit in the proposal of my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich that an authorisation should be reported in real time to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner.
Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]
My Lords, just over two years ago, it fell to me to voice the concerns of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee about extending the authorised time for which juveniles—young people—could be used for covert human intelligence work. Yes, this extension had been authorised in the form of an SI. Fortunately, your Lordships’ committee picked it up and the outcome was that the Minister provided a number of additional safeguards relating to the welfare, well-being and protection of those young people. Here we go again.
I congratulate the Minister on his maiden Speech and the other main speakers. As the Minister said, the Bill will allow young people to conduct criminal activity in pursuit of their intelligence work. As many noble Lords have said, once again, there is a need for better protection. I am grateful to Just For Kids Law, a charity that campaigns strongly for the rights of juveniles caught up in covert activities. It fought for amendments to the code of practice and is active again in preparing amendments to the Bill. Those amendments would ensure that better protection, such as providing for an independent individual who will ensure that the safeguards in the Bill work in practice, and seeking to address the inevitable power imbalance that exists between a juvenile and the police, and the 13—yes, 13—other public authorities who have demonstrated an operational need for this activity.
In her letters of 27 October and 11 November, the Minister justifies this criminal conduct in carefully managed circumstances. She says that the Bill provides additional safeguards for juveniles and strengthens the code of practice. However, it is a code. Does it really have the force of law? She says that juveniles will be authorised to act in only the most exceptional circumstances, with their consent. Is it really informed consent, not just pressure? She assures us that safeguards are in place to promote the best interests of the juvenile. I put it to her that the best interests of the juvenile is not to be involved in criminal activities in the first place. Other noble Lords have reminded us that Article 3 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which we are a signatory, states that the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration. It seems to me that the primary consideration here is security and catching the criminal, even if the child risks being corrupted.
Therefore, before we start debating amendments in Committee, I ask the Minister, do we really want juveniles to be authorised to carry out this criminal activity, even under the strictest supervision? As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, and others have suggested, are we not making a victim of the juvenile, bearing in mind the risk of violence and sexual assault, the emotional and associated mental, physical and psychological damage, and the risk of corruption, which will damage them well into their adult lives. To some, it would appear that these young people are being exploited by our public authorities, leaving it to the rest of us to clear up the mess.
This is not a party-political matter. As many noble Lords have said, it is a human rights matter and a rights of the child issue. In view of all those concerns and in spite of the need, will the Minister consider stopping the use of children in this criminal activity? Then we will not have to argue over safeguards for them.
Lord Mann (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I join the welcome and congratulations to the Lord Advocate for Scotland and the noble Lords, Lord McLoughlin and Lord Walney. I thank the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, for the way in which he gave me and others support when we were under pressure at the height of the issues of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. I acknowledge that what he said in private was far more significant than what he said in public. The noble Lord, Lord Walney, stood on the right side when he did not have to, and took a brave stance. He supported Jewish members of the Parliamentary Labour Party and Jewish Members of the Labour Party. That will not be forgotten, and I thank him.
There have been a number of changes since the 1970s and 1980s. We are no longer fighting countries and armies under rules of engagement in war. We have human rights legislation that we did not have before. Those are significant changes. Since 1997, the strongest trade union organisation in the country is at GCHQ. Being a trade unionist and being loyal to one’s country are not contradictions. The density of membership there is a sign of that. It is part of the checks and balances in the system that makes it work.
We are now in a digital era, which changes many things. In many of the issues that we are talking about today, we are missing the mundanity of the actions that will be required outside the law. Some of the models are rather old-fashioned in terms of approach to what is going on. The mundanity is important to the effectiveness of the powers required.
I particularly want to talk about what happens if we do not do this, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, eloquently pointed out. We go back to the grey area that existed in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s —the shadows, as it was described. What characterised that more than anything was the incompetence of the actions taking place. Nothing could illustrate that better than putting people inside the International Marxist Group or, as we used to call them, the sons and daughters of the bourgeoisie. The only revolutionary thing that that organisation ever did was when some of its members accepted a peerage to come into this place.
The incompetence of the grey area was not in the national interest. There is a worse example. The Economic League sums up the grey area, the shadows and the incompetence. I should know: I was on the Economic League blacklist. When I went to work for the Ciba-Geigy chemical company in Manchester, I got given a job that was then withdrawn because I was on the list. I managed to get hold of the list and found my name on it. That is what happens with a grey area.
The Bill does more than codify; it allows accountability. It does not mean that things will not go wrong and there will not be big issues—there could well be—but it gives us, the people and the victims, the power to do something about it. The grey area is not an option. I want to see the Bill go through.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
The noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, will not be speaking in the debate so we will move straight on to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I concur that the Bill is necessary, but it is too loose—[Inaudible.]
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but we are struggling to hear her. Is it possible for her to speak closer to the microphone?
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
Is that better? I concur that the Bill is necessary, but it is too loose. It is apparently compatible with the Human Rights Act but— [Inaudible.]
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
I am afraid we still cannot hear the noble Baroness. I suggest that we come back to her because we are not able to pick up her words. If she has a chat with the people on the other end of the line, we will come back after the next speaker, hopefully when her microphone is functional. I am sorry, but I am going to move directly on to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. We will return to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, next.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I offer my congratulations to the three noble Lords, including the Minister, on making their maiden speeches today.
I am afraid I cannot give the Bill approval because it provides people employed by the Government with immunity for carrying out murder and heinous crimes. In fact, it would give statutory effect to legalised criminal offences committed by informants, provided that MI5, the Police Service of Northern Ireland or other UK law enforcement bodies have authorised the informant to commit the crime in advance. I understand that this is known as criminal conduct authorisation.
There are also no express limits set out in the Bill to prohibit informants’ participation in particular crimes that would constitute human rights violations such as murder, torture including punishment beatings, punishment shootings and kidnapping, or acting as agents provocateurs. I think back to the use of agents in paramilitary murders in Northern Ireland. This goes to the very heart of the legacy issues that the Government are currently considering and their very unhelpful Statement of 18 March.
There is a concern that, in addition to criminal conduct authorisations making criminal acts by informants “lawful for all purposes”, the extraterritorial provisions of Section 27(3) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 could also apply, namely that:
“The conduct that may be authorised under this Part includes conduct outside the United Kingdom.”
This would mean, for example, that MI5 could authorise from its Belfast base a serious criminal offence to be conducted by a paramilitary informant in the Republic of Ireland. That offence would be unlawful under UK law but, clearly, this would not change an act being a criminal offence—[Inaudible.] The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred to the murder of Mr Finucane in all these regards. I must ask the Minister some questions. Were the Irish Government consulted on the content of this legislation and on the fact that this proposed activity could take place in their jurisdiction? Were they asked if this would impact on their own police service—the Garda Síochána? Did the Prime Minister discuss this with An Taoiseach when he met him in Hillsborough earlier this year?
It is important that significant amendments are made to this Bill to ensure that the UK’s prosecuting authorities can independently review crimes—[Inaudible.] —and remove the power for MI5 and other public authorities to brand crime “lawful for all purposes”. I cannot accept the extraterritorial nature of this because it places an impact on the bipartisan rule of Britain and Ireland in terms of Northern Ireland.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
I understand that we are still not able to return to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker; once her microphone is corrected, we will attempt to do so. We will move straight on to the noble Lord, Lord Sikka.
Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, and the noble Lords, Lord McLoughlin and Lord Walney, to the House. I look forward to meeting them face to face in the not too distant future and working with them.
I have a number of questions. First, the Minister and the Government have told us that we can rely on the Human Rights Act as a way of curbing any excesses of the CHIS Bill, but the difficulty is that the Government have already committed to repealing and revising that Act. We do not know what will be taken out or left in. Surely it would be more prudent for the Government to introduce the revised human rights legislation first and bring the CHIS Bill later? But that is not what they are doing.
Subsection (5)(c) of new Clause 29B, as proposed by Clause 1(5), permits authorised criminal acts
“in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom.”
As the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, indicated, the Bill does not say what that actually means. How do we know what is in the long-term economic interest of the United Kingdom? Was deregulation of the financial sector really in the economic interest of the UK? Is anybody calling for deregulation now because it clashes with the government ideology of the day, perhaps? Are they really to be infiltrated by undercover agents and the organisation subverted? It is hard to know.
Some in authority will have argued—they certainly did in their day—that the general march against unemployment and poverty, the miners’ strike, the Dagenham women’s quest for equal pay or the Grunwick workers’ quest for better pay and working conditions were somehow a threat to the economic well-being of the UK. However, with hindsight, we know that they enabled many people to live a fulfilling life. They brought in an era of possible gender equality, at least over pay. Much of our social awareness is due to social organisations such as environmental activists, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, anti-apartheid movements and Extinction Rebellion, which may well operate in the margins of the law from time to time. However, these organisations can easily be classified by the Government as damaging the economic interests of society and thereby perhaps become subject to infiltration by undercover agents.
Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher referred to the African National Congress as a “typical terrorist organisation”; by definition, she labelled Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Whether the Government sent in any undercover agents to undermine the ANC, we do not know. Nevertheless, the idea that somehow you are going to safeguard national security and economic interests poses particular problems, because the issues tend to be seen through the lenses of the ideology of the Government of the day.
The Bill defines “relevant authorities” but omits an important fact: all the relevant authorities have been outsourcing some of their activities to private corporations. That means that other corporations would also be authorised to commit criminal acts. Where does that leave us in terms of corporate responsibility and the responsibility of corporations under international law to uphold human rights? Who will oversee these corporations? In this country, we do not even have a central regulator to oversee the enforcement of the Companies Act. What happens to the employees of these organisations if they say that they cannot go along with instructions from their employers? What happens to those conscientious objectors? The Bill provides absolutely no guide whatever.
For those reasons, it is impossible for me to support the Bill. I look forward to a number of amendments and a further debate.
Baroness O’Loan (CB) [V]
The processes through which CHIS are authorised to engage in crime are, at the moment, unsatisfactory. There is a mischief here that requires to be remedied. However, the Bill does not provide a remedy to the mischief; rather, it exacerbates it. It enables the granting of immunity for serious crime to a CHIS by a member of a range of authorities in undefined circumstances. It requires the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, in the exercise of his regulatory powers, to
“pay … attention to public authorities’… power to grant … authorisations.”
It does not provide proper authorisation or audit.
The three grounds on which criminal conduct authorisations will be permitted are defined as national security, preventing or detecting crime or preventing disorder, and the economic well-being of the country. These are very wide-ranging circumstances. National security must include the protection of life, yet the need to prevent crime can leave CHIS in place with authorisations that might lead to deaths because a decision can be made that the need to prevent a greater number of deaths is greater than the need to protect one life. It has happened. Crime and terrorism can be very fast moving. That is why we need to ensure proper authorisation processes, just as we have for the granting of search warrants and other activities under RIPA. Yesterday, the JCHR said:
“This raises the abhorrent possibility of serious crimes such as rape, murder or torture being carried out under an authorisation … There appears to be no good reason why the Bill cannot state clearly that certain offences or categories of offences are incapable of authorisation.”
I have had experience of CHIS activity over some 24 years as a member of the Police Authority for Northern Ireland; as Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland; more recently, as a member of the international steering group for Operation Kenova, which is looking at the agent known as Stakeknife; and in my current work for the Home Secretary. I have seen the good that CHIS can do and the havoc that they can wreak when not properly regulated. The death of Patrick Finucane’s solicitor is a very real example, as are the activities of the IRA agent Stakeknife. I have seen it in other countries too.
The activities of CHIS as a source of information and intelligence are essential in the fight against crime—I fully accept that. The Government are right: their activities require to be regulated. In order to search a property, there is a requirement to get a search warrant and provide information to support the application, swearing to the truth of that information. A person’s right to privacy requires that. Surely a person’s right to life requires more than the distant authorisation of criminal activity by agents of the state, as proposed by this Bill.
As we contemplate the fight against terrorism, which is so real today, we need to learn from our previous experiences, not just in handling CHIS but in the consequences of the actions of the state for respect for the rule of law. When solicitor Patrick Finucane was murdered by state agents in 1989, the people of Northern Ireland recognised what had happened; indeed, David Cameron apologised for the shocking levels of state collusion in his murder. People very quickly lose respect for the law; that is what happened in Northern Ireland. Such criminal activity by agents of the state, and the failure by the state to prevent and investigate crime impartially and effectively, is very damaging to the whole criminal justice system and to community acceptance of policing, which is vital in the fight against terrorism.
The Bill came to this House from the Commons unaltered, but there were serious challenges to it in the other place. As I listened to the Minister, I considered the extent to which criminals recognise the opportunity to exploit lacunae in the law. If the Bill were passed, it would create terrible lacunae. The Minister has said that there will be no authorisation of serious crimes such as murder, but particular crimes in respect of which there is immunity cannot be identified because that would enable criminals to identify the CHIS. If the offences which cannot be authorised are to be identified by reference to human rights law, then if a CHIS refused to participate in a serious criminal act, the criminals would be able to identify them anyway. If it became known that immunity could be secured by a CHIS for a serious crime, this process might well be utilised by the very criminal groups which the state seeks to infiltrate, effectively resulting once again in state-sanctioned crime. Criminals are always on the lookout for opportunities. They are usually very intelligent and use the same countersurveillance strategies and techniques as the state.
As other noble Lords have said, we need better protection for children. We know that criminals do not hesitate to kill, torture and seriously injure young people who get caught up in crime. The Bill provides no real protection for such children. The ex post facto examination of authorisations by the IPT does not prevent or control the inappropriate authorisation of serious crime; it is not enough. Humankind is frail and sometimes decisions are made in the absence of law. That is why the Bill is unsatisfactory.
Finally, the Bill appears to provide power to authorise CHIS to commit crime outside the UK.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
The noble Baroness has gone well over the advisory limit of four minutes. Perhaps she will conclude her remarks there.
Baroness O’Loan (CB) [V]
The Minister stated that this is needed for the MoD and, no doubt, for the security service. It raises problems for our relations with other states. We need processes to ensure the constant flow of information. To do that, we must amend the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
We have ironed out the gremlins with the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, so we will return live to her.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I concur that the Bill is necessary, but it is too loose. It is apparently compatible with the Human Rights Act, but there are other rights which could be breached as the Bill stands. There are considerations relating to public morality and the exercise of democracy—[Inaudible.]
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am very sorry, but I am afraid that the gremlins seem to have succeeded in this instance. We may have to leave it there.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
I am sorry, Lady Whitaker. We will try and return to you if we can find a microphone that works. We will go straight on to the noble Lord, Lord Judd.
Lord Judd (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I do hope that we will hear from my noble friend Lady Whitaker; she always has highly relevant things to say. We have heard interesting maiden speeches today. The Minister combined, in a rather attractive way, heart, soul and pretty businesslike and effective professionalism. It will be interesting to see him playing his part in our proceedings.
We need security services and I join with noble Lords who pay tribute to what they do on our behalf. However, we are in a world in which there is a battle for hearts and minds. We must not lose sight of this when considering this legislation. We talk about British values and what matters to the British way of life. We must make this Bill clearly consistent with that. That is why it is so important to get certain principles on the face of the Bill.
We should be strengthening those within the security services, who are determined to operate by the highest standards and who very much have a conviction about what British values are. We must be very careful not to inadvertently play into the hands of the manipulators, who prey on people and build up an area of ambivalence and greyness around what is being done. There must be demonstrable, maximum united public support for what is being done. That is why what is on the face of the Bill is so important. Murder, torture, sexual violence and manipulation are simply not consistent with what we like to proclaim are British values. It is inconceivable not to somehow put on the face of the Bill our total unacceptance of these in any circumstances whatever. Canada has done so; why can we not follow its lead?
My other area of concern is the extent of the agencies covered by the Bill. It is ugly to see vital parts of the social well-being of our society—the Department of Health and Social Care, the Food Standards Agency and others—which are nothing to do with this Bill, being drawn into its orbit. The Minister must give more convincing arguments for why, when this is about national security. We must also hear more convincing arguments about how we can avoid agents provocateurs. My noble friend Lord Hendy spoke very convincingly indeed about the dangers to the trade union movement. Regarding children, where is our imagination and our heart? Most of the children to whom we are referring are deeply troubled, having been through difficult circumstances. We would be very unwise to compound their mental anguish, their difficulties or their instability for the future at goodness knows what social cost.
Justice has put its case very well. We should have prior judicial authorisation. The judicial commissioners are well practiced in making complex assessments of sensitive material in an independent, detached manner, and, where necessary, at speed. Why on earth can we not have prior judicial authorisation, with a role for the judicial commissioners?
Lord Janvrin (CB) [V]
I too congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, and the noble Lords, Lord McLoughlin and Lord Walney, for three memorable maiden speeches, and welcome them to this House.
I join this debate having served in the last two parliamentary Sessions on the Intelligence and Security Committee. I welcome this Bill, and the need to give a legal basis to an activity which, as I frequently heard in evidence to the ISC, plays a key role in many operations of the intelligence services and the police.
As with other legislation putting the secret activities of the agencies on a statutory basis, there is a balance to be struck between, on the one hand, constructing a clear and robust statutory framework with effective oversight and, on the other, giving the agencies the ability and flexibility to act very quickly, if necessary, and in difficult and changing circumstances to achieve their objectives.
I will confine my comments to three areas: the gravity of the crimes to be authorised, the public bodies and oversight. On the first point, I certainly understand the argument against spelling out a carefully defined list of serious crimes, but, as others have mentioned—most recently, the noble Lord, Lord Judd—some of our Five Eyes partners apparently do have explicit limits. Do they not have the same concerns about the risks of a checklist? To say that they are not subject to the European Convention on Human Rights does not really answer that question. Like others, I am troubled by the Five Eyes comparison.
Secondly, I join with others to question the public authorities able to grant authorisations. I know that a wide range of public authorities carry out criminal investigations but, if they are running an investigation of sufficient gravity to consider the use of a CHIS with authority to commit crime, surely, the police ought to be aware? If they are, is there not a strong case for them to be responsible for authorising the criminal activity?
Thirdly, I support the view that these criminal activity authorisations should be effectively scrutinised not only by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and IPCO but also by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament. It is for the IPCO to examine the detail of individual authorisations, and I look forward to examining what the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said about oversight on a more immediate basis. In addition, surely, it is right in principle that the ISC, on behalf of Parliament, should have wider oversight of the use of these authorisations now that they are the subject of legislation? I look forward to a full discussion of these and the many other issues raised in Committee. I take this opportunity to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and her department for the excellent briefings we have had on this Bill. I look forward to her reply.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]
I take this opportunity to welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his thoughtful contribution and a loving tribute to Dirleton. I also extend my warm welcome to the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, and my noble friend Lord Walney. I was deeply moved by his plain speaking, share his pain at the hands of the party we love and assure him that there are merits in being able to reach out to create new political alliances in this House.
The Bill proposes statutory protection for public institutions to authorise informants and undercover officers to engage in criminal conduct. It does not specify limits or types of crime that may be authorised. I come to this Bill as a rights activist and would like government assurance that obstructing civil disobedience will be excluded. New clauses would enable RIPA power necessary and proportionate for criminal conduct authorisation subject to meeting three tests on grounds of “national security”, “preventing or detecting … disorder” and
“the economic well-being of the United Kingdom.”
It is worth reminding ourselves that RIPA came into being in order to improve oversight of intelligence work, and this Bill must not assume implicit immunity, breaking laws that all other citizens are expected to comply with.
Like many noble Lords, I acknowledge with thanks briefings from rights organisations, which have grave concerns. I am grateful to Reprieve, Just for Kids Law, the Pat Finucane Centre, Justice and WAR. While I do not agree with every single aspect of their views, there is consensus among them that the Bill is regressively flawed. Some go further to suggest that it is a state licence for agents and informants on the public payroll to commit crimes, which may include murder, sexual violence and torture, with impunity and without adequate redress for the victims—the core principle of our criminal justice system. I fear we may be sleepwalking once again into what the former Prime Minister, the right honourable David Cameron, referred to as the unacceptable extent of state collusion in the case of Patrick Finucane. I am troubled by the idea of the state allowing individuals to partake in criminal acts and providing them with immunity from the due process of law. By passing this Bill, I fear that we would be approving serious violations of international human rights norms and obligations. No matter how limited my voice or reach in this Chamber or beyond, I stand against everything that the Bill proposes.
We cannot overlook the lessons of survivors of sexual transgressions by officers, or so-called spy cops, currently subject of the undercover policing inquiry. Paid officers entrusted to uphold laws transcended all moral decency, shattering the lives of their victims. It is a prevalent reminder, if any were needed, of the potential consequences of unregulated individuals interpreting for themselves what their institutions required of them. This Bill seeks merely to legitimise more such acts. Regrettably, we cannot lose sight of the unlawful attempt to discredit my noble friend Lady Lawrence’s family and the families of Hillsborough victims, infiltrated in their campaign for justice for their loved ones.
My most grievous concerns are about the potential use of CCAs for children. While I note cautiously the Minister’s assurances, as a child protection officer of long standing I find objectionable the notion of legally sanctioning the exploitation of children, inciting them to commit criminal offences and placing them in harm’s way for potential abuse and long-term harm to their mental well-being. I seriously question “informed consent” in these contexts, even in exceptional circumstances.
Noble Lords will be aware that Just for Kids Law has issued legal proceedings against the Home Office concerning the use of children as spies by the police and other investigative agencies. Justice and other NGOs are asking for CCAs for children to be prohibited. Will the Government listen to their call and exclude children from the purview of the Bill?
My final point is about the potential influence of the embedded disparities of structural racism, sexism and Islamophobia—
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
The noble Baroness is already over her four minutes.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]
I am finishing, my Lords.
My final point is about the potential influence of the embedded disparities of structural racism, sexism and Islamophobia when CCAs are issued with a view to targeting specific communities and groups in the shadow or clandestine decision-making. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, whose excellent analysis highlighted these sentiments. Given the countless individual experiences of discrimination beyond management’s eyes, there remains a lack of trust and confidence among black and minority communities in the police and intelligence services. Therefore, I do not support any government measures which infringe civil liberties, citizen rights and public trust at the peril of our democratic values and justice. I thank noble Lords for their lenience.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I apologise to the House for having to be absent for much of the debate due to a clash with a meeting of our Joint Committee on Human Rights. I regret missing the maiden speeches apart from that of the Minister, whom I congratulate on his aplomb during it.
I shall therefore be brief. I am sure that noble Lords will have covered wisely and in detail the points of contention. I want to state what the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Harriet Harman MP, said in a press release to its recent report:
“This Bill raises major human rights concerns … There should be added to the Bill clear limits on the scale and type of criminality which can be authorised. We cannot pass a law that leaves open the possibility of state-sanctioned rape, murder or torture … The power to authorise crime should be restricted to the public authorities whose role it is to combat serious crime and protect national security and not include bodies such as the Food Standards Agency or the Gambling Commission.”
I just want to emphasise a few points that concern me. First, the Joint Committee on Human Rights report points out that the authorised criminal offences have the potential to interfere with several qualified and absolute rights, including those guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act 1998. Secondly, the Bill contains no specific limits on the criminal conduct that can be authorised. Thirdly, and very importantly, no distinction is made between adults and children for the purposes of CCAs within the revised CHIS code of practice. This would be a serious breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, an international treaty and therefore legally binding on ratifying countries—the UK ratified the UNCRC in 1990. My noble friend Lord Haskel and others have spoken about this intolerable situation. The rights of the child are paramount, as reflected in the UNCRC. There must be no compromise on this, and the age of a child is 18 and under, not 16 as the Government seem to think.
The Bill does not include provisions for victims of authorised criminal conduct. The Bill needs additional safeguards to ensure that there can be no authorisation for serious criminality. Many agencies, including Reprieve and Justice, and the Bar Council have suggested changes that could be introduced to the Bill. They and the Joint Committee on Human Rights have similar concerns. I therefore hope the Government will take note. I look forward to hearing the Minister.
Baroness D’Souza (CB) [V]
Most of what I wanted to say has been said, and eloquently said. I will merely emphasise two points before I metaphorically sit down. The Government justify the absence of limits on the potential criminal activity that the Bill enables by saying that to do so might serve to expose active agents. Furthermore, HMG argue that there is no need to include such limitations in the Bill, as has been the case in similar legislation in Canada and the USA, on the basis that the UK is party to the European Convention on Human Rights, which is incorporated in the Human Rights Act 1998, and is therefore bound by the terms of the convention. However, at the same time and in almost the same breath, the Government said, in legal filings, that they do not believe that covert agents should be bound by the terms of the Human Rights Act. Additionally, since the Human Rights Act specifically precludes murder, torture or other degrading behaviour, which surely covers sexual violence, the argument that naming limits might endanger agents rather falls to the ground. Will the Minister clear up these ambiguities?
Secondly, the Bill relies heavily on oversight by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, the right to lodge any complaint with the tribunal and additional oversight —oh, I fear I have lost my text. Forgive me. What I was going to say is basically that dependence on the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, when there are no fewer than 14 authorising authorities bound to ensure that any criminal activity undertaken must be proportionate, necessary and at the lowest level possible to achieve the aims of the particular operation, is surely too much to ask. One could rely on the ISC, but we all know that too often the ISC has not received full or timely information to fulfil its function, and the tribunal itself will obviously take place after the criminal act has been committed. For that reason, I ask the Minister to clear up what seem to me to be ambiguities.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
We are going to make a final attempt to return to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. We hope that, on this occasion, the gremlins have finally been removed from the system.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
Thank you. As I am on the phone, it probably will work.
My Lords, I concur that the Bill is necessary, but it is too loose. It is apparently compatible with the Human Rights Act, but other rights could be breached as the Bill stands, and there are considerations relating to public morality and the exercise of democracy that lie behind the Human Rights Act which need addressing. It is not satisfactory that the crimes that may be committed are not specified, as they are in Canada and the USA. We need an assurance that the Government will retain the Human Rights Act. Will the Minister please provide that? Following the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, can she confirm that the UN convention against torture could be engaged when any authorisation is made? How will crimes not specified in the Human Rights Act, such as rape or sexual exploitation, be prohibited? This is particularly disturbing when those making the authorisations will be not independent or judicial but members of the very organisation which wants the authorisation.
I will make four specific points. First, allowing any crime in the interests of economic well-being and preventing disorder allows for undemocratic and oppressive activities. How will the cited brake of the Human Rights Act constrain these? Secondly, why is it appropriate for the Competition and Markets Authority to commit crimes? This is intrusive. How will it be accountable? Thirdly, leave to compel access to journalistic sources is a very serious step and should be granted by a judicial figure, not the recipient authority. Fourthly—here I echo very many other noble Lords—is the very disturbing element, not new to this Bill, that children can be invited to cultivate deception and entrapment. How does that accord with the rights of the child and the paramount importance of their welfare, as my noble friend Lady Massey asked? The draft code helpfully provided by the noble Baroness is explicit about the use of so-called juveniles—that is, children—as covert sources. Surely this is justified only when their own safety is at risk from the activities that they are asked to spy on. The draft code says that such authorisations must be given taking account of the best interests of the child. Does fostering morality have no place in welfare or in best interests?
In her helpful meeting on the Bill, the Minister said that we must live in the real world. I hope that one of the differences between these Benches and those of the Government is not trying to make a better world rather than accepting a world where crime reduction depends on the exploitation and debasement of children. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s answers.
Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
My Lords, I join others in welcoming the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, and I say to him that every follower of Lancashire knows the joys of the damp cricket match. I also welcome the noble Lords, Lord McLoughlin and Lord Walney, who bring valuable—if very different—experience to this House.
The Bill is short but raises big issues. Some of them are not new, and we will use the opportunity of the next stage to address whether we are in danger of consolidating provisions that should be reviewed. Some of the issues are new, and my noble friend Lord Paddick has carefully and thoughtfully unpacked the status quo. It has been quite some years since the de Silva review, itself many years after Pat Finucane’s death. Since the announcement of the judge-led inquiry, the Bill is concurrent with the hearings of evidence of that inquiry. I do not need to stress our concern for the rule of law, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has put it so clearly, and seeking to outflank a forthcoming judgment is, in my view, at best unseemly.
A statutory framework is welcome, but we already have a framework—more than a framework—in prosecutorial independence and the discretion applied. The public interest test serves us well, as noble Lords have said. The Minister said that “lawful for all purposes” is deliberate, and the House will note the authority with which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, speaks.
I assume that the test will be used in the case of the handlers of CHIS and their controllers. Or does the immunity extend to inciting crime or being an accessory? Presumably, one cannot authorise oneself.
Perhaps, this is the point at which to ask about territoriality. The Armed Forces are mentioned. Inevitably, I started to think about how one would police, and indeed define, criminal conduct overseas. I thought about rendition, but I assume that this legislation does not, and cannot, authorise criminal conduct outside the UK.
Oversight and independent scrutiny are needed, and investigation and accountability before and after—everything that adds up to transparency to the greatest possible extent. I am tempted to say, “so far as is proportionate and necessary,” but like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, we regard the greatest possible transparency as necessary. These will clearly feature at later stages, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has promised us amendments on this. I dare say he will not be alone. This is all part of the nub mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and I look forward to the amendments he will present to the House.
We must not lose sight of reviews and renewals of authorisations—I am not sure I have heard anyone mention them—or the governance, if you like, of the process. My noble friend Lord Beith made the point about the moral dimension.
Of course, we will consider who are the relevant authorities. My noble friends and I have often made the point about police officers having immigration enforcement added to their role. Today, I say we regard it as the police’s role to enforce the law, whether it is about gambling, food standards or whatever. My noble friend Lord Thomas was clear about that and much else. We are particularly interested in how it is envisaged that a government department should act as a relevant authority. Who within the Home Office will give authorisations? What position does this put the Home Secretary in?
The what as well as the who will certainly feature. On the issue of not providing criminal with a checklist against which a suspected CHIS can be tested, I today ask the Minister: what is envisaged by enabling the Home Secretary, by order, to prohibit the authorisation of, and impose requirements in connection with, conduct? That order will be a public document publicly debated, so its contents will be public. In any event, surely the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act provide a checklist. Like the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, I am troubled by some of the Government’s comments.
It would be helpful if the Minister could explain the Government’s view of the application of the Human Rights Act, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has asked. Are CHIS agents of the state, or are they independent of the state? Like the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, I find it difficult to reconcile some of the Government’s statements.
As the JCHR points out, authorising criminal conduct has clear potential for engaging human rights, so the Bill must contain effective protections against their violations, including stringent safeguards against unnecessary or abusive authorisations. I look forward to hearing further ideas from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who rightly raised the issue of torture.
Many noble Lords, including from our Benches my noble friend Lady Doocey, have spoken forcefully of the use or, as the right reverend Prelate said, the abuse, of children—because juveniles are children—and vulnerable adults as CHIS. What does it say about us, as a society, that we contemplate exploiting children—often, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, says, disadvantaged children—in this way?
In a debate a few years ago, I recounted an example of the abuse of a child, and I have periodically been asked for more details. Let me say now that I have no more details, so could journalists please stop asking me. Whether that is out of abhorrence or concern or through some enjoyment of sensationalism, I do not know, but I have been asking myself whether recruiting and directing a child as a covert intelligence source is not itself a type of grooming, with all its predictable outcomes for mental health, development and life choices. I think that the same thought has occurred to the noble Baroness, Lady Young. She and the noble Lord, Lord Russell, made very powerful points, and I look forward to working with all noble Lords who share these concerns.
How can acting as a spy, let alone undertaking criminal conduct, ever be in a child’s best interests? I appreciate that the code deals with appropriate adults in some cases, but can a child give informed consent to these activities? Every child is by definition vulnerable, and a child who is in a position to be used and targeted in this way is by definition very vulnerable. We have progressed in our thinking and views on other vulnerabilities, and we will be discussing the issue of mental capacity and the position of, among others, the victims of trafficking, modern slavery and exploitation whom we should primarily protect.
We recognise—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, pointed out—that in many contexts, perpetrators are victims too. There are also victims who are not perpetrators. The Joint Committee on Human Rights, among the many issues it has raised, has reported its concerns about conduct being “lawful for all purposes” and victims being deprived of civil remedies. In its report, it referred to the Minister for Security, who said that any authorisation found to have been made in breach of Section 6 of the Human Rights Act, which requires public authorities to act compatibly with convention rights,
“would be invalid and the conduct of the CHIS would not be rendered lawful.”
However, the report goes on to say,
“it is not plain on the face of the Bill that this would be the consequence of an authorisation that was inconsistent with human rights. Nor is it clear what would be the consequence of a CHIS carrying out a validly authorised offence in an excessive or disproportionate manner.”
We are grateful to the Minister for circulating the revised code of practice, but—and she will know that this is not a reflection on her personally—how far should we rely on a code? It is not legislation. We have had 54 speakers today and a thoughtful debate on the Bill’s seven pages and two schedules and considerable back- ground. I do not expect subsequent stages to be brief.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, from the Opposition Front Bench I put on record my thanks to the police, the security services, the National Crime Agency and the wider law enforcement agencies for the work they do to keep us safe. They often put themselves in harm’s way and at real risk. It is important that they know they have our support and our thanks for the work they do every day to protect us and to prevent crime and loss of life.
The work of covert human intelligence sources is vital to fighting crime and thwarting acts of terrorism. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, referred to the necessity of having CHIS operatives to fight crime. However, the existence of such operatives is not on a statutory footing, but it should be. By putting this work on a statutory basis, we will provide for the necessarily robust safeguards and proper protections to be put in place. Both I and my noble friend Lord Rosser will argue those points consistently from the Opposition Front Bench as the Bill progresses through your Lordships’ House.
As my noble friend said, the activity that the Bill deals with is not new but has been going on for many years. My noble friend Lord West of Spithead made the important point that we need to be careful in the legislation we pass and should never pass anything that puts an agent’s life at risk.
This is a relatively short Bill, with seven clauses and two schedules, but it is of the utmost importance. It is a Bill where the House of Lords has an important role in providing the scrutiny enabling the Government to provide the necessary assurances. Where they are unable to do so to our satisfaction, we will seek to amend the Bill, return it to the other place in a much-improved state and ask them to think again.
There is considerable interest in the Bill. Over 50 noble Lords have spoken in this Second Reading debate. I congratulate the three noble Lords who have given their maiden speeches today. The noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, had an impressive career in the other place, holding senior positions in both government and opposition, and representing the beautiful constituencies of West Derbyshire and Derbyshire Dales. I had the pleasure of spending much time there and regularly drove through to get to County Hall at Matlock to attend a meeting of the Derbyshire County Council Labour group, which was always a great pleasure. He must be the only member of the National Union of Mineworkers to have served in a Conservative Government and Cabinet.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, has had an impressive legal career to date and takes on the position of Advocate-General for Scotland. I wish him well in his new responsibilities. I have not had a chance yet to speak to him outside the House and I look forward to doing that. He will be fully aware that there are many impressive legal minds on all Benches, and his skill as an advocate will be much in use in this House to support the Government. I can advise him that that is not an easy job at the moment with some of the legislation coming forward.
I have known my noble friend Lord Walney for many years. I think it is nearly a quarter of a century, which makes me feel very old. We were both working to elect and support the Labour Governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. He was subsequently elected the Member for Barrow and Furness in 2010, the same time I was nominated to serve in this House. He was much more successful than me outside Parliament: he got to work in No. 10 Downing Street, while I never got out of Labour Party headquarters. I am conscious that I have never been to Walney Island. I am sure it is a beautiful place—nearly as beautiful as the London Borough of Southwark that I take my title from. The noble Lord is my noble friend and always will be. He is also a dear friend and I look forward to working with him many times in this House.
All three speeches were excellent. I look forward to hearing many more contributions from each of the noble Lords, as they will undoubtedly bring knowledge, skill and experience that will be of much benefit to us all.
I return to the Bill before the House today. It is right that we are very clear on what is and is not authorised by this legislation—what is legitimate, lawful activity, such as the activity of trade unions. They play an important role in the United Kingdom, standing up for people’s rights, campaigning for changes to legislation and changes in working practices and playing their rightful role in our democratic, free society. I have been a member of a trade union since I was 16—first USDAW and, for the last 31 years, the GMB.
My noble friend Lord Whitty raised a number of concerns about the Bill such as compensation for victims of crime and the issue of the legitimate activities of trade unions and other campaigning organisations. We will want to probe these fully in Committee. My noble friends Lord Rosser and Lord Dubs raised the important issue of the call for an inquiry into what happened at Orgreave on 18 June 1984. This again is something I am sure we will come back to during the course of the Bill. My noble friend Lord Hendy raised the issues of the undercover police inquiry and trade union activity. It needs to be clear that nothing in the Bill puts the lawful needs of unions into question. My noble friend Lord Mann made the important point about the restoration of trade union rights in 1997 at GCHQ. People there do work of the utmost importance to the security of our country. You can be both a proud, loyal trade union member and a proud citizen of your country and do work of the utmost importance to national security. There is nothing contradictory there whatever.
It is also important for the House to probe the number and range of organisations that are covered by this legislation and which would take powers from it. A number of noble Lords raised the issue of the Food Standards Agency and other bodies; I am sure that we will come back to that many times during consideration of the Bill.
Human rights protections have always been made; the Government are relying on the Human Rights Act, which is printed on the front page of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, uses Section 19(1)(a) and says that the Bill is compatible with the convention rights, which is very important. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, raised that issue in his contribution to the debate. It is also clear, however, that many in the Minister’s party have voiced opposition to the Human Rights Act and to the convention itself. I would therefore appreciate a clear and unambiguous statement from the Government on where they stand on this. Many senior members of the Government, such as Mr Gove and perhaps even the Prime Minister himself, have raised concerns about this Act, so we need to be clear what we are doing if the Government are relying on this at the moment.
We also need to be absolutely clear that the most heinous crimes cannot ever be carried out or authorised in the name of the Government. As my noble friend Lord Rosser said, we will table an amendment seeking changes similar to those of the Canada model. The Government need to be clear on the limits of criminal activity to be authorised. The Ministers leading on this Bill will have heard the concern expressed across the House, and we will come back to that in the course of our debates.
What we have been talking about here is the type of crime that the police and other agencies are seeking to disrupt. It could indeed involve, as the noble Lord, Lord Stewart, said, outlining what needs to be done for organisations such as the Food Standards Agency. Crimes such as murder, rape and sexual violence are commonplace in the organisations they would be seeking to disrupt, and we have to have in place appropriate legal safeguards to get closer to what offences would and would not be allowed under this legislation. I know that the area where CHIS work is very difficult, but these are important points.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, my noble friend Lord Haskel, the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and many others raised the question of child CHIS. The important thing to recognise is that they are children—just that. On the rare occasions that they have to be used to combat crime—if there is no alternative—we have to be absolutely clear that proper and meaningful safeguards are in place. Every possible safeguard must be there, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, said. I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Haskel for first raising this issue in the previous Parliament.
The Bill strengthens the current legal position by putting the power to authorise criminal conduct by a CHIS on an explicit statutory footing. However, my noble friend Lord Hain highlighted serious matters—serious breaches—that should concern all noble Lords in this House. He also outlined the authorisations that he approved as a Minister to use CHIS and said that we need to debate and explore carefully where we draw the line on this issue. Security is absolutely right, and we all support that, but we do not support the abuse of power, and getting the balance right is, of course, a matter that we will come back to again and again. We need clear accountability—the issue of self-authorisation in the Bill needs to be discussed—and we will press the issue of prior judicial oversight, because it is vital that we get the safeguards, processes and structures right. As my noble friend Lord Rosser said, there are procedures for judicial approval 24 hours a day. I listened carefully to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. I agreed that his points and suggested solutions to the concerns need to be debated fully by the House, so I look forward to those amendments being tabled and to debating those issues. We believe in accountability, and authorisation needs to be in as real time as is possible and notified to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner on an ongoing basis.
My noble friend Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick raised points about the activities of paramilitaries and agencies of the state and raised the issue of the murder of Pat Finucane. My friends in the other place—the Members for Sheffield Heeley and St Helens North—have spoken about that and called on the Government to hold an inquiry into his murder in 1989, and I fully support that.
In conclusion, the Opposition understands the importance of the Bill; we have set out the areas on which we have concerns and we will seek to make improvements to the Bill in those areas. We will work constructively with the Government, making our points clearly, and if we think it necessary, we will divide the House on issues to enable the other place to think again. However, we remain hopeful that if we consider these things carefully, considerable progress and improvements can be made by agreement with the Government as the Bill makes its progress through the House.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords not only for speaking in this debate but for some of the discussions that we had prior to the debate. They were very thoughtful and constructive. I look forward to exploring some of the issues that were raised today in further detail in Committee.
I have the very nice job of starting by thanking all three speakers who made their maiden speeches today. They were all excellent and quite different. All three noble Lords will be a great asset to this House. I start with my noble and learned friend Lord Stewart of Dirleton. It was an absolutely superb speech—almost poetic. It transported us for a brief moment into the beautiful area where he lives, and I am sure that in future he will regale us further with some of his words. He has clearly had a glittering career and it seems that he has another one to come. If he is from the same faculty of advocates as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I know that he will be an excellent asset to your Lordships’ House.
My noble friend Lord McLoughlin has spent 33 years in Parliament, 30 of which have been on the Front Bench. I must confess that he looks very good on it. If I had to do another 23 years, I think that I would have to be carried out. He has had a great career, having spent 17 years as a Whip, and also as Transport Secretary and chairman of the Conservative Party. One of my favourite things that I have at home is a little postcard of his election where he is wearing his miner’s hat. I know that he will be a great contributor to your Lordships’ House. I am delighted to hear that he is a fan of HS2; he knows my views as a fellow fan.
Finally, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Walney, was absolutely wonderful. I want to put on the record that I think he is a brave and principled man. As the noble Lord, Lord Mann, said, he stood up for his colleagues when others did not, and that is a great accolade. He has shown independence of character, spirit and strength through what he has suffered for probably far too long, but I think that he knows that in this House he is surrounded by friends on all sides. I look forward to hearing some of his views on nuclear submarines, coastal erosion and other things.
I thank all three noble Lords, who made great speeches today. They have set the tone for the debate in many ways.
I think that we are all in agreement—bar perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, who I do not think will support anything that we put forward—that we need to ensure that our intelligence agencies, police and public authorities have access to the correct tools to allow them successfully to safeguard the public from criminal and terrorist groups that would seek to do us harm and undermine our way of life here in the United Kingdom. The raising of the UK’s threat level to severe last week reminds us all of the threats that we continue to face as a nation. I give my thanks to those in the public authorities, who work so hard and often put their lives on the line on behalf of us all to keep us all safe.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, started his speech by outlining the number of terrorist attacks that have been thwarted since 2017. As he said, there have been 27, nine every year. This activity saves lives. He also pointed out CHIS activity in the NCA disruptions that we have seen in the last year, as well as proscribed organisation infiltration—as he said, the Bill brings into law things that have been going on for years—and we thank all those concerned.
One of the major topics of discussion has been on safeguards and oversight of activity. They have rightly been a recurring topic. I pay tribute to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and his team of judicial commissioners. They provide rigorous oversight of all our investigatory powers, including covert human intelligence sources, and will continue to play an important role under the Bill. On the percentage of authorisations currently overseen by the IPC—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead—the IPC is able to examine any authorisation, and he sets the frequency of those inspections.
There have been calls for prior judicial approval by commissioners, including from the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Beith. The Bill currently replicates the existing model, whereby any criminal activity undertaken by a CHIS, as I will now call them, is signed off by an authorising officer, who is highly trained and experienced. They will know the CHIS, not just as anonymous assets but human beings with unique strengths and, of course, weaknesses. The officer will know the context in which the CHIS are operating, including the risk to the CHIS themselves and the public. Authorising officers are best placed to make that judgment on whether the proposed criminality will meet the necessity and proportionality threshold, while considering the specific duty of care for the CHIS and the specific live environment. However, we have been clear that if there are ways in which to provide greater reassurance on the safeguards and independent oversight of the regime, while ensuring that it does not affect the operational workability of the tactic, the Government are willing to consider that issue. I listened very carefully to the remarks of the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Carlile, and would welcome a further opportunity to discuss the matter with them.
The noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, also asked about oversight by the Intelligence and Security Committee. It might be helpful for me to repeat the commitment made by the Security Minister in the other place in a letter lodged in the Library, which he stated that, in line with its remit and the provisions of the Justice and Security Act, such information as is requested in order for the ISC to provide effective oversight of these policies shall be provided to the committee.
Virtually every noble Lord who spoke raised the subject of the use of children and vulnerable people as CHIS. It is an uncomfortable area, and I agree that it is imperative that we ensure that appropriate safeguards are in place for the rare occasions—I repeat they are rare—where there is a need to authorise young or vulnerable people to participate in criminality. This may be necessary to stop criminal gangs from continuing to exploit those individuals and prevent others from being drawn into them. Noble Lords mentioned county lines gangs.
The then Investigatory Powers Commissioner previously confirmed that, in practice, juveniles are not tasked to participate in criminality in which they are not already involved, and that decisions to authorise are made only where that is the best option for breaking the cycle of crime and the danger for the young person.
The use of juvenile CHIS and additional safeguards have been debated previously in this House and the courts. We will extend those safeguards to ensure that they also apply in any proposed authorisation of criminal conduct. Juveniles and vulnerable individuals will be authorised to act as CHIS only in exceptional circumstances. This is emphasised in changes to the CHIS code of practice, a draft of which has been published alongside the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, please read it because not only is it a good document but it will be subject to full consultation and debate in both Houses. The safeguards are also set out in statute in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Juveniles) Order 2000, which was debated by this House in 2018 and subsequently updated.
Let me be clear in response to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel: the code has legal force, so any authorisation must legally comply with the safeguards in it. The circumstances under which juveniles and vulnerable persons are asked to undertake criminal activity will be tightly controlled and subject to stringent risk assessments that will account for and seek to mitigate the risks of physical and psychological harm to them. All individuals will be risk-assessed, and their individual circumstances considered, before being tasked as a CHIS. Victims of crime will never be coerced into becoming a CHIS, but in some cases they may decide that they wish to play a role in bringing perpetrators to justice.
Any authorisation of juveniles requires a more senior level of authorising officer and a shorter authorising period, with reviews of the authorisation taking place at least monthly. For any juvenile CHIS under the age of 16, an appropriate adult must attend all meetings with the handlers. These safeguards seek to ensure that juveniles are appropriately protected when they play a vital role in undermining and disrupting the criminal or terrorist groups that seek to exploit them. I recognise that it is very important that noble Lords and the wider public have confidence that we have the right safeguards in place. I am very happy to discuss this further.
Many noble Lords talked about the limits. An authorisation will be tightly bound and specific. In response to the noble Lord, Lord West, I can confirm that this Bill will not widen the scope of activity which can be authorised. However, I appreciate why some noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Rosser, question why we cannot clearly write in the Bill the crimes that CHIS will never be authorised to commit, as is the case in Canada.
Every country has its own unique circumstances, be they in legal systems, public bodies or threat picture. The United Kingdom is the only Five Eyes country that is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. We also have our own threat picture; the unique challenges we face in Northern Ireland in particular mean that our operational partners advise that CHIS testing is a very real possibility. However, there are limits to the conduct which can be authorised under this Bill, and they can be found in the Human Rights Act. This is set out explicitly in the Bill.
The requirement for conduct to be necessary and proportionate also places limits on what can be authorised. I emphasise the point on necessity and proportionality: an authorisation can be granted only if it is considered necessary for one of three statutory purposes and proportionate to prevent more serious criminality. Within this framework, I assure noble Lords—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Hain—that nothing in the Bill will prevent or limit legitimate and lawful activity, including activity by political groups or trade unions. The noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Mann, pointed that out very well.
I also stress that our operational partners have publicly stated—I reiterated this the other day—that it is never acceptable for an undercover operative to form an intimate sexual relationship with anyone they are tasked to investigate or may encounter during their deployment. The conduct will never be authorised; nor must it ever be used as a tactic of deployment.
I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts that while the activity that will be authorised under the Bill is UK-focused, the same safeguards will apply for authorisations for both UK and overseas activity. A CHIS will never be given authority to commit any and all crimes. The UK complies with all obligations under the Human Rights Act and is also bound by obligations under international human rights law.
I turn briefly to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young, about the potential for the Bill to have a disproportionate impact on women or members of BME communities. These characteristics will never be a consideration in why a person is under investigation.
I turn to the issue of redress. Authorisations are very tightly bound and, as part of the necessity and proportionality test, collateral damage will be considered. This minimises the risk of those who are not the intended subject of the operation being impacted. In the rare case that an individual is unintentionally impacted, there are number of routes for redress available to them to challenge the validity or lawfulness of the authorisation and seek appropriate remedy. An affected person could seek a judicial review of a public authority’s decision to authorise criminal conduct. The Investigatory Powers Tribunal also has jurisdiction to investigate and determine complaints against a public authority’s use of this power, and any person or organisation is able to make a complaint to the IPT. The Investigatory Powers Commission also has an obligation to inform a person of a serious error that relates to them, where it is in the public interest. This would include situations where the commissioner considers that the error has caused significant prejudice or harm to the person concerned.
Moving to the range of public authorities, there were diametrically opposed views—that there were too many and not enough—but all those included in the Bill already have the power to authorise the use and conduct of CHIS, and we have restricted the number of public authorities able to then authorise participation in criminal conduct based on operational need. I welcome, in particular, the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, on this issue. I urge noble Lords to read the case studies that I think I provided yesterday to explain why these public authorities require the use of this power. All public authorities will receive appropriate training to ensure that authorising officers understand the strict necessity and proportionality parameters that must be met before authorising a CCA, and will be subject to independent oversight provided by IPCO.
On immunity, and the point raised by several noble Lords that we should simply continue to leave decisions on the prosecution of CHIS to the CPS or other prosecuting bodies, it seems unfair and unreasonable for the state to ask an individual to engage in difficult and potentially dangerous work while leaving open the possibility of the state prosecuting them for the exact same conduct. That tension has existed for many years and it is right that we use the Bill to resolve it. It is also undesirable to create an express power for public authorities to authorise activity that remains criminal. I refer noble Lords to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, on this point, but I reassure noble Lords that if a CHIS were to undertake criminal activity that fell outside the strict parameters of a CCA, that will have been clearly explained to the CHIS by their handlers. The prosecuting authorities are in a position to consider whether to bring a prosecution. This has been done before and will be done again if required.
I am committed to ensure that Members of this House and the wider public can have confidence that there is not an unfettered and unlimited power for public authorities to authorise criminality. The legislation certainly does not do that, but it is right that we debate and consider the safeguards and the oversight in place. We must ensure that we do not pass legislation that unnecessarily restricts our operational agencies from utilising the tactics they need to keep us safe. That is the balance that this Bill seeks to strike, and the key principle that we should be operating to. This is important and necessary legislation and I look forward to debating and considering it further.
Future of Financial Services
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for dealing with the second Treasury Statement in as many days. This Statement is billed as a prelude to the Financial Services Bill, which we will be able to scrutinise following its Commons stages. The process promises to be an interesting one, and I hope the Minister will avail himself of the expertise that exists across your Lordships’ House.
The Chancellor was correct to outline the importance to our economy of the financial services sector. It is a huge employer, generates a significant amount of economic activity and makes a large contribution to the Exchequer. It is vital that we harness the potential of financial services to grow our economy, particularly in terms of green growth.
It is a shame that this Statement has come only now. As it stands, we are weeks away from leaving the transition period without an agreement giving UK firms preferential access to the EU markets that are so important to their day-to-day operations. The Government have unilaterally published equivalence decisions for EU and European Economic Area member states, but the Minister will concede that that gets us only so far.
In his Statement, the Chancellor reiterated the Government’s position that an equivalence determination for UK firms should be simple and swift as we start from a point of regulatory alignment. If that were true, why were the Government not able to secure equivalence determinations by the deadline set out in the political declaration? The Chancellor has sought to blame the EU, but when the Government were asked to complete various questionnaires to aid that process they managed just four out of 28 by the June deadline.
While we may start at a point of alignment, decision-makers in the European Commission will no doubt be studying the Financial Services Bill in detail. Equivalence may not require total alignment, but it seems odd for the Government to amend UK regulations at the same time as demanding that our EU colleagues take a snapshot of them. Does the Minister believe that the contents of the Financial Services Bill are likely to have any bearing on the ongoing discussions? Is it possible that the EU will delay a ruling until that Bill is on the statute book? We will scrutinise the Bill closely, not only in the context of equivalence but to ensure that the reforms do not lead to a deregulatory race to the bottom that puts investors and financial stability at risk.
I turn to the green components of the Statement. The Government would have us believe that their commitment to tackling climate change is second to none, but those of us who share an interest in recent legislation will be sceptical, to say the least. We are told that everything done by Ministers is with a net-zero future in mind, but time after time they oppose sensible climate amendments, most recently on the Agriculture Bill. While the various green finance initiatives announced in recent days represent a degree of progress, the Treasury has not gone as far as many would like. It is certainly not the comprehensive green agenda that is needed to make swift and decisive progress towards the 2050 net-zero target and our wider international obligations. As the shadow Chancellor observed in her response in the Commons,
“Over the last decade, the UK has pumped £6 billion into overseas fossil fuel projects via UK Export Finance”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/20; col. 621.]
There is no indication that this behaviour will be banned, undermining any meaningful action taken in the UK.
The Financial Conduct Authority has signalled a change in approach to firms’ disclosure of climate-related information, which we support. However, mandatory reporting will not be implemented until 2025. Why are the Government not being more ambitious? Green gilts are another case in point. How can we be sure that the money will represent genuinely new investment? Why have the Government waited until 16 other countries have introduced their own schemes, rather than taking the lead on the issue of green financing?
I wish I could be more optimistic, but, sadly, I remember the story of the Green Investment Bank. The institution, proposed in the last Labour Government’s final Budget, should have been key to improving the UK’s environmental record. Instead, just years into its existence, it was sold off by the former Business Secretary Sajid Javid. Earlier this year, a government Minister suggested at a roundtable event that the “Green Investment Bank 2.0” could materialise in the future. Can the Minister confirm whether this is being looked at and, if so, when we can expect news?
Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. I agree with the Chancellor that financial services are fundamental to Britain’s economic strength. However, I recommend that anyone looking to assess their future ignore the hype in the Chancellor’s statement—he seems to have drunk the moonshot Kool-Aid—and look at reality. Our failure to negotiate mutual recognition, or at least equivalence-plus, with the EU is a serious problem. If only the Government had taken as much interest in this area as they do in fishing or, as Catherine McGuinness of the City of London Corporation is quoted as saying in today’s Times, finance risks being
“the neglected child of an acrimonious divorce”.
Over £1 trillion in assets have already transferred from the UK to the EU. Last year, Ministers seemed to think that half the financial services business with EU clients, which is about 15% of total UK financial services, had left or was in the process of leaving, including swathes of insurance and asset management. Is 15% still the number, I ask the Minister? The size of these asset transfers suggests that the actuality is well above those expectations. Job transfers are unclear because of Covid, but we do know that, even in 2019, the recruitment of graduates who do not have EU passports had pretty much collapsed for anything except retail banking.
The EU, which I once thought had a 10-year strategy to remove, slice by slice, most EU and euro-related financial services back to the 27, seems to have accelerated that programme. For example, Mr Dombrovskis has cautioned EU businesses to shift a significant portion of their clearing activity out of the UK in the next 18 months. Without dominance in clearing euro-denominated derivatives, the UK’s global role is seriously at risk. Does the Minister agree?
On fintech, many firms have made it clear that they will have to move EU business if we cannot agree on the rules that govern data. Where are negotiations on this, because at the last look they were pretty dire, with the UK determined to please the United States by watering down data protection?
I am delighted that we are finally going to issue a green sovereign. We may be a leader in green finance now, but every single significant financial centre is committed to the green agenda. I note that the EU is expected to issue €200 billion in green bonds as part of its Covid recovery fund, none of which will be issued through London. But will the Government replace the Green Investment Bank? The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned it; it was sold off in part because, along with the British Business Bank, it was associated with Vince Cable, but that was also a deliberate act of environmental vandalism. Will it be replaced?
We are entering a period of regional economic blocs. The United States has actively repatriated a great deal of dollar financial services. China and Asia generally, contrary to the expectations of George Osborne, are using Hong Kong and Singapore rather than London, even with all the disruption in Hong Kong. India is developing Mumbai, so I caution the Government not to misread the potential of dialogue with India. We are now outside all the regional blocs. We have capacity and skills in financial services, but everyone else has the clients and issues the major currencies. You can move capacity and skills, but you cannot move the clients. London will remain a global centre but, I fear, one of gradually less significance. Will the Government give us a reality check on the future of this crucial industry and a proper assessment of the damage that their hard-line Brexit is delivering?
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office and the Treasury (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for their thoughtful contributions. I will try to answer the questions as fully as I can.
Unlike the EU, the UK’s equivalence assessment of the EU’s regime was conducted on a proportionate basis, recognising that the UK and EU have the same rulebook. The EU sent us over 1,000 pages of questionnaires—not in a timely manner, with the last 248 pages arriving by 25 May, which is why we were not able to return them within a week, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned. We responded to the questions fully and comprehensively, with over 2,500 pages of response going back at the beginning of July. The EU has not come back with any questions on these responses.
In the absence of clarity from the EU, the Chancellor announced the package of decisions on Monday, which are in the UK’s interest and seek to support UK firms and ongoing cross-border activity with the EU. I assure both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we remain open and committed to a continuing dialogue with the EU about their intentions. The Government have taken all reasonable steps to co-operate in good faith with the EU throughout the equivalence process.
The noble Lord asks whether we feel that the EU is holding back, pending the progress of the Financial Services Bill. The measures in the Bill are consistent with a mutual equivalence outcome, and a number of cases actively support it. The UK played an instrumental role in the introduction of a lot of the EU’s regulation, particularly the investment firm regulation and directive, for example, so it is very supportive of the intended outcomes.
The noble Lord asked about TCFD. The UK is the first major country to go beyond comply or explain, or as far as able requirements, and our proposals contain a requisite level of prescription, supervision and enforcement mechanisms to mandate meaningful disclosure. The approach confirms the UK’s position as a global leader on robust climate-related financial disclosures that help investors to make informed decisions. We believe that the timelines set out in the road map provide the right balance between showing ambition and allowing businesses, investors and asset owners enough time to prepare to disclose meaningful information. Initial steps towards introducing TCFD-aligned disclosures have already been taken in respect of certain listed companies, banks and building societies. The FCA consulted in March on comply or explain rules for premium listed companies.
The noble Lord asked about green gilts. The UK’s sovereign green bond will identify specific government green projects that its proceeds will be used to finance, as per the International Capital Market Association green bond principles. These proceeds will then be tracked and reported in a regular and transparent manner to provide clarity to the public and investors.
The UK Government have always remained open to the introduction of new debt-financing instruments but needed to be satisfied that any new instrument would represent good value for money to the taxpayer. We have been regularly reviewing the case for introducing a sovereign green bond, as well as closely monitoring how the green and other ESG bond markets have developed over recent years. The noble Lord asked why we were slow. We have been watching the evolution of this market; indeed, Germany issued its first equivalent only in September this year.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked about a Green Investment Bank mark 2. The Government are committed to ensuring that businesses and infrastructure projects continue to have access to the finance that they need. The UK has a number of existing tools available and we committed, in March last year, to an infrastructure finance review. We still intend to respond to that within the next few weeks.
The noble Baroness asked about asset transfers and the future role of the City. One of the advantages of leaving the EU’s regulation is that it gives us the opportunity to launch a number of initiatives. For example, we will review Solvency II. We will have a call for evidence on the overseas regime, some parts of which have not been reviewed since 1986. We are carrying out a task force on future listings given that there is, for example, quite a big discrepancy between the minimum size of a prospectus in this country and in the US. We are carrying out a consultation on the UK funds review to look at ways of making this country more attractive for international funds.
I remain more optimistic than the noble Baroness that there is a good future. She also asked about fintech and its role. We are a major player in the fintech market. We are developing an ecosystem that supports fintech firms to grow and reach scale. We are fostering partnerships between fintechs and incumbents to enable mainstream adoption of innovation. Being a large economy, we provide the opportunity for high levels of domestic demand; the British public tend to be early adopters of the opportunities that fintech throws up. We have the third-largest number of tech unicorns in the world, with 77 companies valued at over $1 billion. We are absolutely committed to supporting the growth of that market.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
We now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers. The first speaker is the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman.
Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of Peers for the Planet. I very much welcome the emphasis in the Statement on green recovery and the ambition to lead the world in green finance. I have a couple of questions on TCFD and the decision to mandate climate disclosures. Could the Government not be a little bit more ambitious on the 2025 deadline, given the number of companies that are already taking on these responsibilities and have acted on disclosure? In the run-up to COP 26, will the Government take this as an exemplar and persuade other countries to act in a similar fashion so that we can have an even playing field across countries?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
The noble Baroness asks important questions. I certainly take on board her desire to try to accelerate the mandatory implementation date. I will feed that back to the Chancellor and see if it can be done. It is always a matter of balance between doing these things too quickly and being slow-footed. The TCFD is a key component of our international efforts at the G7, which we are hosting, the G20, COP 26, which the noble Baroness mentioned, and the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action. Making this announcement will mean that we can set this as an example for other countries to emulate and harmonise approaches on disclosure.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I, too, declare my interests as set out in the register and welcome the launch of green gilts and the aim of a green recovery.
I shall ask my noble friend two questions. First, I welcome the equivalence decision that the Government have taken unilaterally, but which areas in particular will we have equivalence for, and will there be the same sort of short-notice withdrawal for equivalence as exists in the EU?
Secondly, could my noble friend clarify the welcome statement in the document released by the Chancellor about UK pension funds directing more of their capital towards our economic recovery and setting up a long-term asset fund? Utilising the money in long-term pension schemes to boost recovery directly is an excellent idea, but could we have a little more detail on the plans?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. In relation to the equivalence announcement, we are taking on board 17 equivalence rules. In the interests of brevity, I shall not go through all of them, but I shall ask that they are entered into Hansard. The point the noble Baroness makes about the early or perfunctory removal of equivalence is something we have taken on board. Indeed, other countries have expressed this as one of the EU’s problems, and it will be our intention to have a more transparent process that gives those countries the ability to respond to issues and have a more iterative dialogue.
In relation to the noble Baroness’s points on pension fund assets allocation, I touched on this yesterday in the Statement in relation to local government pension funds, and it is certainly a priority for us to try and steer some of these assets, on a low-risk basis, into infrastructure development.
Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the finance industry has been engaged in bribery, corruption, money laundering, tax avoidance and mis-selling of numerous products. The victims of RBS and HBOS frauds are still awaiting compensation. In July this year, the Intelligence and Security Committee said some aspects of the finance industry were also a threat to national security. I ask the Minister and urge the Government to appoint an independent inquiry into the finance industry, as that would be a good way of promoting public confidence in the industry.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I do not accept the noble Lord’s harsh criticisms of the sector. As in any sector, one gets miscreants, but is important to remind the noble Lord that this industry employs over 1 million people in this country and contributes £130 billion to our national economy and some £75 billion in tax receipts.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register.
A lot of time was used up seeking equivalence, and now it is right to move on with reforms and new matters. But what is the overall timeline, and will there be more democratic oversight than mere devolving of power? I welcome the unilateral equivalence decisions the UK has made. Many of them show that equivalence can benefit the granter; it is not all about benefits to those receiving equivalence.
I would also like to pursue the matter of pension funds investing in infrastructure. It is something we have envied in Australia and Canada for a long time. Has the Treasury considered how much more could be unleashed if there were not a systemic obsession of regulators with risk-free, liquid investment in government bonds? Post-Covid, is that not an even more outdated comfort blanket, which robs both public and pensioners?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
To reassure the noble Baroness, full disclosure will be made on any further progress with equivalence. The new Finance Bill, just starting its progress through both Chambers, will give opportunities to noble Lords to contribute.
On the issue of pension fund asset allocation, I agree that we have been too focused on pushing too many assets into government gilts or equivalent instruments and that enormous opportunity exists for investment in UK infrastructure.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I take this opportunity to welcome the Statement from my noble friend today, in particular the part relating to the issuing of the green sovereign bond. Among my interests on the register, I am vice-president of the Association of Drainage Authorities. I urge him to consider that a fundamental shift of thinking is required on environment issues at the heart of the Treasury, relating to spending on environmental projects and more especially flood defences, which will increasingly become a challenge given the threat of climate change. Will the Government ensure that revenue and maintenance activities receive a greater balance of spending than those on capital work? So often when flood defences fail, it is due to the lack of maintenance. Given the pressure of climate change, I hope that my noble friend will agree to review this urgently.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I take on board my noble friend’s comments. In relation to flood defences, I must declare an interest: my farm runs down to the sea and I have some three miles of coast, which is under continual attack by the elements. But we have increased the commitment of funding for flood defences; I think it was in the Budget in March, and it certainly recognised that this is a major element of our national infrastructure. In terms of seeing an allocation into these kind of assets, this falls partly into the previous question about ensuring that we get a wider allocation into infrastructure and of course into sea defence and indeed flood defence.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
My Lords, if fluency in fintech will define the future prosperity of the UK, policy alignment and regulatory equivalence are essential with the EU and global counterparties. Does the Minister agree that a key goal is to encourage digital trade, and then to help our SMEs access global markets? I refer to my declaration in the register. The range of financial interventions from Governments and regulators has expanded in an unco-ordinated fashion, underlining the need to strengthen regulatory co-operation. What incentives and assistance will be available to promote standardisation, reusability and rationalisation of technology to standardise taxonomies, document digitalisation, implementation of distributed ledger technology and artificial intelligence?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we absolutely acknowledge the role of fintech in the economy. It generated some £11 billion in 2019 and employed more than 76,000 people. The 2020 report has highlighted the UK as a global leader. Likewise, in the payments landscape, we are also highly innovative because we again are a large economy. In 2018, more than 230,000 faster payments were sent every hour, compared to fewer than 3,000 10 years earlier. The noble Viscount is concerned about regulation. The financial regulators continue to provide a platform that facilitates innovation in this space. For example, the Financial Conduct Authority has accepted a significant number of DLT-based projects into its regulatory sandbox to enable the adoption of this technology to deliver better financial services with appropriate consumer safeguards.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I refer to my interests in the register. Unlike some others, I congratulate the Chancellor and my noble friend on getting ahead and providing as much certainty as possible in financial services, despite the ongoing difficulties with the EU. We need this innovative £130 billion industry, especially as we start to pay for Covid. How does my noble friend think that this package will help the large number of smaller financial services providers—and indeed the businesses they serve—outside London and outside the leading-edge areas of fintech and green finance, which will of course take time to grow?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we absolutely accept that small businesses are the backbone of the wealth-creating part of our economy. One of the answers I gave earlier was looking at the listing rules in this country to see whether we can make it more accessible for smaller firms. I mentioned that I think that you have to issue a full prospectus for anything in excess of €8 million, whereas in the US it is $50 million, so we certainly will be looking at that.
On a slightly unrelated element, but connected to SMEs, the rules reform that we are working on now, post transition, on procurement opens up an enormous opportunity for SMEs, because it will allow us to set our own rules and not be controlled by the EU regime. That covers some £290 billion-worth of government expenditure each year, and we will be making sure that SMEs get a good slice of that.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
You are on mute. Please unmute. No, you are still on mute. We will move on to the next speaker and come back to the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, if we have time. I call the next speaker.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. The Treasury papers say that it will give audit equivalence to the EEA states and approve as adequate their competent authorities. It is important that investors should be able to have confidence in audits provided by EEA auditors for overseas operations of UK businesses. However, does this also mean that EEA auditors will be able to continue practising in the UK after the end of the transition period, while UK auditors will be excluded from EEA markets? If this is the case, can the Minister say what the cost will be of this lack of reciprocity?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I am not able to give specific answers to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on those subjects at the moment. They will, no doubt, be included in the ongoing negotiations. If we receive clarity on that in the next few weeks, I will happily write to her.
Lord Flight (Con) [V]
My Lords, I apologise that my screen has gone wrong while waiting. I first declare my interest. [Inaudible.]
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
Lord Flight, could you come closer to your microphone? Do not worry about your screen.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
No. Let us try again: one more time, Lord Flight.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
No, you are cutting in and out.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
Let us move to the next speaker and we will come back. Apologies, Lord Flight, but you were breaking in and out.
Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
My Lords, we look forward to the Ron Kalifa report on fintech. The trade credit insurance guarantees making a real difference. Would the Government agree it should be extended until June 2021? Will the Government consider instituting a new 3i-type funding to help provide equity finance for funding, recovery and scale-up? Will the Minister clarify if the Government will consider reinstituting a Green Investment Bank—a question that has been asked before? Finally, will the Minister agree that getting an EU deal with make equivalence much easier to resolve?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
The noble Lord asks a lot of questions: I will take the last one first. Of course, getting a deal will make the whole relationship far more constructive. We remain cautiously optimistic that this can be achieved. I think the Government are broadly sceptical about creating an equity distribution fund or a fund that makes equity available. As I am sure the noble Lord will know, the private equity industry has some $1.5 trillion-worth of dry powder available for investment around the world, including this country. I believe that we should be accessing that rather than using taxpayers’ money.
Lord Gadhia (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the content of this Statement and the recognition of the significant contribution of financial services to our economy. However, could I press my noble friend on equivalence? For those following the trajectory of our approach to securing continuing market access, we have been on a ski slope for mutual recognition to enhanced equivalence to equivalence and now to unilateral equivalence—which, by definition, involves no reciprocity. Does this Statement effectively signal we have abandoned hope for a substantive financial services chapter in the UK-EU trade deal? How does that reconcile with the ambitions set out in paragraphs 35 to 37 of the political declaration?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we have certainly not abandoned any aspirations of mutual equivalence. As I said earlier, we cannot start from a position of almost perfect equivalence, and it is disappointing that the EU has not seen it appropriate, at this stage, to engage on a more collaborative basis. We had to provide clarity to UK-based firms and show that we were ready for business on 1 January, whatever the EU’s attitude. We continue to engage with the EU proactively.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Chancellor’s Statement. It quite rightly emphasises the high regard that the United Kingdom is held in throughout the world for its financial services, which, as he said, bring £130 billion to the Exchequer. We are also renowned for our gold standard legal system, which, again, attracts many high-value disputes in our courts, and we rightly take pride in our word being our bond. Therefore, does the Minister agree that, as we leave the European Union, our enviable reputation is tarnished by an open admission by a Minister of the Crown in another place that we will place on the statute book an Act which, on his own admission, will breach international law?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, the UKIM Bill is there as a precautionary instrument in the event that we do not achieve a deal at the end of this year, to protect the interests of this country.
Lord Jopling (Con) [V]
My Lords, some years ago, when the European Union was trying to negotiate the TTIP agreement with the United States, one of the United Kingdom’s principal aims was to include financial services in that deal. But when we went to Washington on a Select Committee visit, the United States Treasury was totally—even aggressively—opposed, saying that it was totally unacceptable to include financial services in a trade agreement. Does the Minister agree that there has been no change in the American attitude, and that it will be almost impossible to get a satisfactory and acceptable new trade agreement with the United States in the short term? To suggest that it will be simple and swift is some way from the truth.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, I am not involved in the intricacies of the trade discussions between the US and ourselves. There is a very simple principle with any trade agreement: the more you try to agree in one go, the harder it is. If you include something as complex as financial services, then it will be very difficult. I am sure that that is why the EU has still not been able to negotiate its own deal with the US. However, we will continue to engage with it as practically as we can.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
My Lords, that is all we have time for in the 20 minutes.
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