Lords Chamber

Tuesday 16th September 2025

(began 1 month, 2 weeks ago)

Share Debate
Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
14:37
None Portrait Oral questions: Effectiveness of the National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) Regulations 2015, as amended this year Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

My My Lords, My Lords, first My Lords, first Oral My Lords, first Oral Question.
14:37
14:38
14:39
14:40
14:40
14:41
14:42
Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
-
-
I appreciate what Mike noble friend has said about Healthwatch. They did a sterling job over the years. But in assessing where we are in terms of making sure we have the right framework on patient safety and there was a recent publication of a report that said the landscape was cluttered and it was hard to hear patient voices. I think it is right we make the changes we do to improve things for them. I should improve things for them.

I should say the reform to the GP contract does very much help general practice to be at the heart of a neighbourhood health service. That is where we are going. I hear the government was planning on walk-in clinics when the new government came in. How is that progressing?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In terms of development, as my

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In terms of development, as my noble friend will know, the 10 year health plan speaks clearly about a neighbourhood health service. That neighbourhood health service. That is where people find it easier to access. It will be up to local areas access. It will be up to local areas how they do that. In a number of areas that will be clinics where all areas that will be clinics where all services are under one roof. We services are under one roof.

We would encourage that. I can also give an example of a pilot scheme taking place now in terms of mental taking place now in terms of mental health crisis centres which are 24- 7, all year round, and available 7, all year round, and available
14:43
14:44
14:45
14:45
14:45
14:46
14:47
14:47
14:47
None Portrait Oral questions: Risk of renewed cross-border conflict and civilian protection amid escalating tensions between Ethiopia and Eritrea Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
-

Second Oral Question.
14:47
14:48
14:49
14:50
14:50
14:51
14:52
14:53
14:53
14:54
14:55
14:56
14:57
14:58
14:58
14:59
None Portrait Oral questions: Specific factors driving the increase in undocumented migrants leaving France to enter the United Kingdom Lord Massey of Hampstead (Conservative)
-

Third oral question. Paper.
14:59
15:00
15:01
15:02
15:03
15:03
15:04
15:05
15:05
15:06
15:06
15:07
15:08
15:08
15:09
15:09
15:11
None Portrait Oral questions: Government assessment of the growth figures for July 2025 Lord Leigh of Hurley (Conservative)
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

people into illegal migration roots. Fourth Oral Question, Lord Lee.
15:11
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Fourth Oral Question, Lord Lee. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. Paper. By 0.2% in the three months up to July 2025 after an increase of 0.3% in the three months leading up to June. The economy overall grew by 1% in the first half of the year, above the forecast of 0.6% stop the UK was the fastest growing economy in the G7 in this period. We want to go further and that is why economic growth remains our number one growth remains our number one But the ONS said that there is a zero growth in GDP and that means GDP per capita will be negative in part because productive people are leaving and less productive people leaving and less productive people are arriving.

The markets have made their view of the economy clear as borrowing rates are higher than any other country in the G7. Will the noble Lord agreed to meet the noble Lord agreed to meet the commissioner who has excellent ideas on the growth? As Treasury minister, will he persuade his new colleagues every employer is saying the Employment Rights Bill will severely curtail growth and now is the time for amendments? I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question and his thoughts on growing the economy.

After his success in advocating for a Brexit deal that reduced GDP by 4%, it is always helpful to get his advice on economic growth. He mentioned the monthly growth figures. I do not know if he avidly read the Office for National Statistics blog posts, but he might have seen the announcement this week they would revert to pleading with the three , and provide a clearer picture of underlying economic momentum. He might have seen UK GDP increased in the three months up to July in that data release and we can see the government action to turn around under investment, the legacy from his government, opposed now by the party opposite, is having an effect and construction output increased by 0.6%, driven by 2.1% growth in infrastructure work.

He might have seen exports to the US increased in seen exports to the US increased in July. The UK economy grew by 0.1% -- 1% in the first half of this year as a result of the fastest growing economy in the G7. He may have seen Lloyds Bank business figures showing confidence rising for the fourth confidence rising for the fourth consecutive month to its best level in 10 years.
15:13
Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
50% of the economy is small and medium-sized is. Their commentary about rising unemployment and falling vacancies and the highlight of employment costs from the British Chamber of Commerce, they singled out the hike in National Insurance. Earlier today those of you who were at prayers prayed for the wealth and tranquillity of the nation. My Lords, rather than waiting for divine intervention, can the Minister admit the National Insurance rise was wrong and it is contributing to neither wealth nor contributing to neither wealth nor Can I first of all say that it is a welcome return to the noble Lord and welcome return to the noble Lord and a pleasure to be asked a question by him again after a somewhat lengthy absence.

The answer to his question is no. We hear from the Liberal is no. We hear from the Liberal Democrat benches about their strong support for the investment we announced in the spending review. They supported I think every piece They supported I think every piece of investment right across the board. Not a single piece of investment we announced did they investment we announced did they They are now saying they oppose the way in which we raise that money. That is I'm afraid something we see That is I'm afraid something we see on many of their leaflets across the country and it is also the route that led to the mini-budget wanting to support outcomes but not supporting difficult measures to support them.

He mentioned small business. We have set out a clear strategy to support small businesses in this country.
15:15
15:15
15:16
15:16
15:17
15:18
15:18
15:19
15:20
15:20
15:20
15:21
15:23
15:24
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
-
-
principles of this rather than to the details of it. For parents, the difference of information is of great importance. If there looking around for school for their child, they need to have an understanding of which schools they actually have a chance of getting into. So the admission rules and the outcomes from those rules are vital information for parents. It used to be the case that local authorities published a booklet every year, setting out exactly that, what the rules were and what the outcomes would be.

But the more that academy schools have grown, the less that has become the practice. I ran off the booklet for East Sussex, where I live, senior schools, and out of the 20 also schools that are available at secondary level, full admissions information is certainly available -- is only available for four. The others say, contact school. Because although there is supposed to be a system whereby schools provide local authorities with the information that they can then put in their schools booklets, this is no longer happening and East Sussex is by no means and outlier, it is common.

Providing parents with easily accessible schools admissions information has broken down. If as part of the forthcoming school profiles, we are to have school information available on the government website, and if as with the other excellent information that they provide on that website, it will be available in electronic form in bulk, then, my Lords, we have solved this problem. I hope that is the answer. If not, we must do something to get back to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

position we all thought we were in. I beg to move. Amendment proposed, because 53,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment proposed, because 53, page 115, line 26, insert the words on the marshalled list.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

on the marshalled list. I have not had much input into
15:26
15:27
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)
-
-
intervention I've made in this important bill. I would like to draw the Minister and the Department's and the house's attention to the plight and funding of rural schools. One of the first actions that the incoming government undertook was to end the Rural Services Network grant which greatly benefited rural areas and allowed many outlying villages and farms to access the schools for their children. This has had an immense impact on counties such as Bury rural and isolated North Yorkshire.

When I was there in the other place, there was a group of about a hundred MPs who have actually felt that they represented deprived areas of local education funding for the simple reason that we lost what was initially eight rural and sparsely populated element of the funding, and the grant seemed to change every single year. In addition to the loss of the delivery grant, the government also took away the grant that was actually dedicated to rural schools transport funding, so if you like, a double whammy and a double effect of this first action from the government.

In the year up to the end, the financial year 23/24 understand the rules grant totalled over £100 million and the government saw fit to redirect that money from what are called, " more deprived areas ". I would just like to point out, during the course of my management to 55, the lack of understanding of how changes to this funding really impacts on individual rural schools, where they face the risk of closure but also impacts on the parents and the children of those who are trying to access what I believe are very good schools.

I understand that the thinking of the government is to transfer resources from rural to urban areas. So what I ask in this amendment is to ask the government to review within six months of the passing of this bill it's rural school admissions policies to include an assessment of whether admissions policies in this area have affected the availability of home to school transport. I would make a plea to the Minister to ask why rural schools have been singled out for this very, what I would describe as disappointing and shabby treatment, leaving them grossly underfunded and if you look at other local education authorities, neighbouring to North Yorkshire, such as West Yorkshire, and indeed York, or South Yorkshire, I think you'll find and she will find that rural schools in terms of accessing schools in deeply rural sparsely populated isolated areas have been very, very underfunded by this change of policy and I urge the government to think again.

I hope the Minister will look kindly. She may not like the wording, and I would be pleased if the government would bring forward a better framed and drafted amendments to accept my amendment drafting may not be perfect but I think the noble Lady will get the thrust of what I'm trying to say and I'm sure she will agree it is very unfortunate that rural schools have been impacted in this way and the admissions policy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for schools even more so. I beg to I want to speak to amendment 456
15:31
Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I want to speak to amendment 456 in my name. Which would require state schools to have a limited faith -based selection process for admissions of 50% for school is oversubscribed. This has been a requirement since 2011. But as it stands the bill would end this requirement. We often talk about amendments being dismissed by ministers with unintended consequences. This appears to be an example of the bill itself causing unintended consequences. The determination by a succession of Tory governments initially hand in hand with the Lib Democrats to undermine schools while promoting academies and free schools vigourously has meant since 2011 all new schools have had to be free schools.

But there was one benefit of that policy because free schools are subjected to the faith -based limit in admissions as part of the funding agreement. Because 57 would remove the presumption all new schools should be free schools and instead allow others to be open. That includes foundation schools which can be 100% selective. Those types of schools would be open for the first time since the introduction of this system 14 years ago. Was that an unintended consequence? If it was initially it seems the government was not concerned because when it was debated in another place, a similar amendment was voted down by the government in committee and the same thing happened at report.

I hope my noble friend will be able to see that on deeper reflection that is now a position that she does not want to defend. I say that because this has been demonstrated to strengthen ethnic integration. Analysis of data on faith schools shows religiously selective schools Are significantly more ethnically diverse than schools that are 100% selective. I think we should bear in mind that at a time when the far- right is seeking to divide communities on the grounds of ethnicity, it is surely appropriate to allow schools to entrench differences.

This is a time for government to promote social and ethnic integration and not facilitate a means by which children grow up not knowing anyone their own age different from themselves. I cannot believe that is what the government would want. Faith selective schools are less inclusive across multiple factors. Compared to other schools they admit fewer children eligible for free school meals than would be expected in their catchment area. They would only exacerbate inequalities in the school system. Last year the office of the schools adjudicator said disadvantaged children, including those in care are missing out on school places because of faith - based admissions.

Studies by the London School of Economics reached the same conclusions. We know 100% selective schools will open if the clause remains. The Church of England will certainly do so and it may be other groups will wish to do the same. It already exists. At the committee stage the then Schools Minister said on the faith schools provision, we want to allow proposals for different types of schools to promote a diverse system that supports parental choices. Well supporting that is admirable. But allowing new 100 % faith selective schools to open would not expand choice.

It would limit it for parents in an area that does not adhere to the faith of the new school or any faith according to the survey. 53% of people now have no That is more than half of all parents with fewer choices for state funded schools than their religious counterparts and 100% faith selection allows children to be rejected from an oversubscribed school on their doorstep in favour of a child possibly miles away whose choice of religious affiliation is the factor allowing them to be selected.

I suggest that is not right or fair. Lifting this cap would be a regressive move and not

**** Possible New Speaker ****

one I think should be sanctioned by a Labour government and this offers a means of avoiding that. My Lords, I wish to speak to my

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I wish to speak to my amendment, 457. And amendment 456 in amendment, 457. And amendment 456 in the name of the noble Lord Watson of Invergowrie. Both deal with the Invergowrie. Both deal with the issue of faith -based selection in school admissions. My amendment school admissions. My amendment speaks to the Schools Minister concerns raised in committee in the other place. The Department of education currently does not collect data on how admissions policies are data on how admissions policies are applied in schools.

Therefore we do
15:37
Baroness Burt of Solihull Portrait Baroness Burt of Solihull (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
applied in schools. Therefore we do not know how many parents are missing out on places on their preferred school because of religion or because they do not have a religion. Collected data would shed light on what the impact of faith selective admissions is for parents and pupils and whether such selection is contributing to or undermining parental choices. Amendment 456 should I hope be uncontroversial. Since 2011, all new faith schools, as all new schools have to be free schools, and have been subjected to the funding agreements with a 50% cap on faith- based selections on admissions when oversubscribed.

This situation, in this situation, amendment 456 is a simple tidying up exercise. That is how I read it. Extending standing policy for free schools, whether it has a religious character and all state maintained schools, which could open under clause 57. The government has not suggested in any way it opposes the 50% cap in principle. Following consultation, it showed overwhelming support for it to continue. The government stated it will maintain the cap for free schools with a religious character.

If the government is supportive of allowing new 100% faith selective schools to open, I would ask the Minister to state that clearly before the house. I wish to be clear that neither of these amendments oppose the opening or continuing service of faith schools in this country. Many of them provide exemplary education for their pupils. What the amendment seeks to do is to ensure faith schools cannot limit parental choice and pupil diversity by hand selecting who they wish to accept.

Using a selection of faith leads to less inclusion. The church of England, and minority religion schools subject to a 50% cap have higher ethnic diversity compared to those not subject to the cap. Faith schools compared to schools without a religious character in the same catchment area have been found to accept fewer children on free school meals, according to the Sutton Trust. Fewer children in care according to the adjudicator. And fewer children with additional learning needs, according to the research from the London School of Economics.

Amendment 456 and my amendment of 457 promote fairness and parental choice in admissions policy and I commend them both to the house.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

If I might briefly speak to my own amendment in this group, I will leave the summarising to my noble
15:40
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
leave the summarising to my noble friend. I use the term operating in this. It may be out of date and may be unfair. But the fact is there has been an increase in the number of children not in over recent years. There was a report on it in the House of Commons, coming out in 2020 and it has been exacerbated by the COVID situation. It is about time we had a real dive into why more and more pupils are not in the mainstream system.

There have been some suggestions that the academy system will get rid of bad pupils or the fact that more people realise, there is a greater emphasis on special education and there might be more trouble for that school and that has been brought in. I would like to know. I know some of the academies, the better ones are against this and the noble Lord Agnew is annoyed about the idea of the practice and the committee stage debate on another bill. If they are asking academies that are avoiding it all summer falling into this, we should know.

Because if academies are here to stay in this bill, whether we like it or not because we have accepted them, can we find out if there is a specific problem there or if it is something else? The increased number of people not in school as a problem we have referred to throughout this committee stage. I think it is time we had a decent, in-depth look at it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I rise very briefly to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I rise very briefly to make very few remarks as I am an active unionist and I would like to identify my support of the identify my support of the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness Burt and the noble Lord Baroness Burt and the noble Lord Watson. I hope the government will take heed of what these modest amendments say and what they amendments say and what they propose. If there is something that propose. If there is something that needs to be discussed, may I ask the needs to be discussed, may I ask the noble friend the Minister to pull together those of us who are interested in this and committed to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this to talk about it? My Lords, if I could speak to a
15:43
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, if I could speak to a number of these amendments, I want number of these amendments, I want to do it from my own experience. Let me start first of all with the cap on faith. If you remember, this was something that was originally introduced by the Tony Blair government new schools. I thought at the time, how sensible is that? That if we live, as we do, in a multifaith, multicultural society, is it not a good thing that children mixed with children of different faiths? By speaking in committee stage, day nine, I referenced the fact my daughter went to a Jewish school.

It was wonderful for her to be able to have Jewish friends, to have Hindu friends, Christian friends and have Muslim friends. That was the ethos of that Jewish school. If you just put the Catholics there, Anglicans there and the Jewish there and the Muslims there, you divide people. I do not want to divide society. I want children to celebrate their faith and culture. The best place to do that is in school when they are learning and growing up. You only have to remember what happened in the education system in Northern Ireland.

Second, I want to talk about faith schools in terms of about faith schools in terms of And this I think is, I was speaking to amendment 456 in the name of Lord Watson on the 50% cap and I could not add anything further to his contribution. I want to now turn to my noble friend Baroness Burt's my noble friend Baroness Burt's amendment, 457. Faith schools do a fantastic job. A very good educational job. I look again at my own city and the four Anglican schools are oversubscribed, are very popular, but the way that children are admitted raises real questions in my mind.

Suddenly at the local churches, the local Anglican churches, which are in the neighbourhood of that school, guess what? They certainly fill up their congregation. Because when they apply for the school, they have to have a reference from the vicar. Number two, if they are able to go to an Anglican primary school, there are these two hallmarks of getting into the secondary school. I do not think that is the way admission should be done. It becomes almost, never mind moving church or going to church, or moving house to get into a catchment area.

This is not the way we should be filling up schools. Yes there should be faith schools. Yes, faith schools, the clue is in the title, there should be families who have faith. But to go through that sort of process in my mind seems to be an abuse of the way we admit children into school. I want to come to the question of off- rolling. I agree with my noble friend Lord Addington. We never really heard this phrase until we really heard this phrase until we It cannot be right that schools take children of their role, not because they were excluded, but may be because they have special needs and the school decided to decided couldn't cope.

Maybe they had learning difficulties and the school decided they couldn't cope. Maybe they decided they couldn't cope because the peoples had behavioural difficulties. That is not a way to have schooling in our society. And I very much support, and I think since this issue has been raised, academies have actually realised academies have actually realised that this is an issue and the subject of off-rolling has got less and less and I'm absolutely delighted about that. But there's no harm in actually making sure that this practice goes once and for all.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Milos, as we have heard, this group and the next one cover a range group and the next one cover a range of issues in relation to admissions. My sense is that most of the My sense is that most of the amendments in this group are not really needed in practice, but the noble Baroness Minister will no noble Baroness Minister will no doubt clarify. In relation to amendment 449 in the name of my amendment 449 in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas, as my noble friend made clear, each individual friend made clear, each individual school does publish its admissions school does publish its admissions policy on their website post policy on their website post although I accept his point that local authorities no longer local authorities no longer published as many comprehensive booklets as perhaps they once did.

But I do think that it's reasonable to expect parents to be able to look at different websites, and the admissions policies of the schools that they are interested in sending that they are interested in sending their children to. Turning to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness Lady Garden of Frognal, my understanding is that under the fair access protocol, children who are in need of a school place will be found one and I'm just not, while I absolutely respect the noble lady's
15:50
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
concerns about the groups of children she described, I'm not sure it is helpful that we place a it is helpful that we place a priority on one group of children priority on one group of children over another, but rather that we see a right education is fundamental to every child. My noble friend every child. My noble friend Baroness McIntosh of Pickering 's amendment relating to admissions amendment relating to admissions policies for children living in policies for children living in rural areas, I think my noble friend raised some very valid points about the financial pressures that rural schools and in particular very small schools and in particular very small rural schools face.

But I'm just not sure that an analysis of those policies is appropriate to be done policies is appropriate to be done in the Department. Turning to amendment 456 and the name of the noble Lord Lord Watson of Invergowrie, I think the noble Lord Invergowrie, I think the noble Lord raises a valid point that there is a change in policy happening with the change in policy happening with the ability in future for maintained preschools, although they won't be preschools in the sense of many of us understanding it.

Will be available. And that that is different to what exists today for different to what exists today for academies. -- Free schools. Amendment 457 as we heard in the name of the noble Baroness Baroness Burt of Solihull would require the Secretary of State to publish an annual report on School Admissions Code including an analysis of the proportion of places allocated based on faith related criteria. And of course, as I said earlier, schools already published the admissions policy.

I don't think they publish the outcomes and the comms of both rigid criteria. Again slightly puzzled about the value of doing this nationally as obvious to parents are typically looking at schools in a narrow geographic area close to where they live. Finally in close to where they live. Finally in relation to amendment 475, I agree with the name Lord Addington that off-roading is not acceptable and in 2019, OFSTED defined off-rolling as " the practice of removing a pupil from the school roll without using a permanent exclusion, where that permanent exclusion, where that removal is only in the best interests of the school rather than the best interest of the pupil and this includes pressuring apparent to remove the child from the school roll".

I do think that the suspect is clearly in the sites of the Inspectorate and I don't think with that at the noble Lords amendment is needed. He did raise much wider issues about attendance which I think go very far blonde that definition of off-rolling. And I think indeed that the new inspection framework from OFSTED with its emphasis on inclusion might serve to reassure the noble Lord that that continues to be in the sights of those who are responsible for holding our schools to account.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

The amendments in group 1 cover admissions and related issues. In relation to these clauses. In this package of measures will help to package of measures will help to ensure that decisions on baserunning and admissions support admissions, and admissions support admissions, sorry, support the needs of cuties and families were also supporting local authorities to deliver their local authorities to deliver their statutory functions. Amendment 49 tabled by the noble Lord Lord Lucas and amendment 457 tabled by noble and amendment 457 tabled by noble Baroness Bert, seek to ensure that admissions information is available
15:53
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-
admissions information is available to all parents and for the Secretary of State to publish information about schools admissions arrangements including any faith- based arrangements. I hope I can provide some reassurance to the noble Lord Lord Lucas. Admission authorities are already required by the statutory School Admissions Code to publish their admission arrangements on their schools websites, including the portion of places which will be prioritised for peoples of the faith will stop and ensure that parents can easily understand how admissions arrangements will be satisfied.

Admissions authorities must also provide information to enable local authorities to publish an annual admissions prospectus for parents. The code requires local authorities to publish this information for all schools via a composite practice. Existing approach we believe is proportionate and reflects the diversity of arrangements and local circumstances and is not overly burdensome on schools or local authorities, was enabling parents to access the information that they need about their local schools. Turning now to amendment 455 tabled by the noble Lady Baroness McIntosh which seeks to insert a new clause to require a review of rural schools admissions policies, the admissions system already contains organisms to ensure that admissions policies meet local needs including rural schools, admissions authorities must consult locally performing changes and anyone who considers a schools admissions policy to be unfair or unlawful can object to the schools adjudicator.

Furthermore our school travel policy, also ensures that no child is prevented from accessing education by lack of transport. Local authorities must arrange free travel for children attending nearest suitable school who could not walk there because of the distance, the special educational needs, disability or mobility problems or due to reach safety. The government is setting out a plan to deliver best services and drive opportunity to underserved regions -- better bus services was nobody particularly talked about the issue of the rules delivery grant.

Can I just say in relation to that the government is committed to tackling the issues that matter rural communities. We are allocating funding through improved needs formally, in 2025/26, to target funding where it is needed most and investing in the priority services people rely on the most. Places with significant rural population will on average received almost 6% increase in their core spending power this financial year, a real terms increase, and the council will see a reduction.

The rules delivery grant does not properly account for need, in fact many predominantly rural councils receive nothing from it and that is clearly not right. The government consulted on proposals to purpose this funding in the usual way in the provisional 2025 /ready six settlement but the government is nevertheless keen to hear from councils about how best to consider the impact of reality on the cost of services as part of the longer term consultation on local authority funding reform which was published in June.

Turning to amendment 456 in the name of my noble friend Lord Watson which seeks to apply the 50% faith admissions cap to new state- We We greatly We greatly value We greatly value the We greatly value the contribution that faith schools make to our school system and support the ability of faith schools to set faith-based oversubscription criteria. This can support parents wishing to have their child educated in line with their religious beliefs. It is for the admission authority of individual schools to decide whether to adopt such arrangements.

Many faith schools are oversubscribed suggesting parents value and want these schools. We also understand that the ability to prioritise children of faith when oversubscribed and of course it is only at the point at which the school is oversubscribed that these criteria would bite on the admissions of a school. But when that does happen it is important to faith schools, and the risk of disappointing my noble friends and that no lady bonus but, we don't intend to change that at this stage.

But removing the legal presumption that all new schools should be academies, has brought about this particular issue, that of course intended to give local authorities the ability to make the best decisions to meet the needs of their communities and decision-makers in making those decisions will carefully consider proposals from

**** Possible New Speaker ****

all groups and commission the right to new schools to meet needs and ensure every child has the opportunity to achieve. I don't feel my noble friends

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I don't feel my noble friends minister has answered the questions about why this the change. I don't expect to make any progress right now but I think the full report will need to discuss this further.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

need to discuss this further. I'm certainly happy to write to my noble friends and perhaps facilitate the opportunity for them facilitate the opportunity for them to meet with the new schools minister in order to discuss this minister in order to discuss this particular issue. What I was in the particular issue. What I was in the process of saying was of course process of saying was of course these provisions relate to the new provisions around opening schools and in doing that decision-makers and in doing that decision-makers will carefully consider proposals from all groups and commission the from all groups and commission the right new schools to meet need and to ensure every child has the opportunity to achieve and to opportunity to achieve and to thrive.

Turning to amendments 452, A, and B, tabled by the noble Lady A, and B, tabled by the noble Lady Baroness Garden which have the effect of a enabling local effect of a enabling local authorities to direct the production of children in the asylum process, and resettlement schemes, the fair access protocol, local and collaboratively for securing school places for and placed and vulnerable children, already ensures that children of refugees and asylum seekers can be secured places in the event that they failed to secure one event that they failed to secure one

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Clause 54 extends current powers

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Clause 54 extends current powers to admit a child and also enables them to direct academies in the same them to direct academies in the same way. Clause 55 also enables the admissions code to set out admissions code to set out additional circumstances in which additional circumstances in which directions can be made, including whether fair access protocol failed to secure a school place for a child. Clause 55 will therefore already enable local authorities to already enable local authorities to initiate the direction for children among refugees and asylum seekers.

Amendment 475, tabled by Lord Ellington on the requirement to introduce a review into the practice of off-rolling in schools, I think of off-rolling in schools, I think there is a clear consensus amongst noble lords that off-rolling is noble lords that off-rolling is unacceptable in any form. We will continue to work with OFSTED to continue to work with OFSTED to tackle this. OFSTED takes unlawful exclusions and off-rolling exclusions and off-rolling seriously. Where evidence is found, it will impact the leadership and management judgement of the school.

We are committed to strengthening accountability. We are looking carefully at options for annual reviews of safeguarding, attendance and pupil movement, including off- rolling, to ensure transparency and accountability with respect to this issue. I hope that with the additional information and assurance that I have given to noble lords they will feel able to withdraw

**** Possible New Speaker ****

their amendments. Referring to Lord Watson's

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Referring to Lord Watson's No plans to make a change at this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

No plans to make a change at this time, what does she mean at this time? Will the government consider it in the future or is it not going to happen at all? I think I was clear about the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think I was clear about the position with respect to admission arrangements with faith schools and it is not intended to change.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

it is not intended to change. My Lords, the government is changing that. I remember, I was changing that. I remember, I was part of the debates where we arrived part of the debates where we arrived at the 50% figure. This was very at the 50% figure. This was very much understood. I remember the catholic schools played a strong part in that. In that debate. Very much understood. So the schools that much understood. So the schools that were created and quite clearly have a strong religious character, being a strong religious character, being directed and running that way, but they did not become isolated parts they did not become isolated parts of the community, fracturing it and of the community, fracturing it and separating it.

As the noble Lord said, one only has to look at Northern Ireland to see the difficulties caused by fully segregated systems. We agreed a system for avoiding that. Why is the government now going back on it? Where is the argument coming from? It doesn't appear to be coming from It doesn't appear to be coming from the Church of England. We have had silence there about these amendments. We have not heard any other religious voices saying thank you so much. This is what we want.

Who has been lobbying for this? Where is the pressure coming from? What is the government giving into in order to make this change? It is not at all obvious. The government is not being open or clear about what the motivation is or what outcome they wish for. Presumably they are hoping that we will get a collection of 100% religious character schools being founded in the next year or two. Where are they intended to be? What kind of schools are they looking at? What future is the government letting us in for? I think the government owes us some clarity and openness on this so we can understand what they are doing, what they intend to do, to our society.

This is a really important set of issues. Binding us together as a nation. This has never been more important. It is threatened from various angles now. Why is the government heading towards that I can see I am not going to get anything out of the Minister now.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I will respond. I will as I said I would write. I think the noble Lord is enormously overstating the very specific circumstances in which very specific circumstances in which this particular criteria would relate. This is not an invitation by
16:06
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
-
-
relate. This is not an invitation by To enormously increase the number of faith schools. This is a specific requirement related to the provisions about opening a new school contained within this bill. But I will write to the noble Lords about that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I look forward to that but I very much regret that the settlement we much regret that the settlement we reached should be torn up in this way. When it comes to my own amendment, 449, it is all very well for the government to say that there should be a composite prospectus but there is not. It used to exist, absolutely. But it is not what is absolutely. But it is not what is available now. If you look for a available now.

If you look for a perspective of this notice -- of this type, it is not there. -- this type, it is not there. -- Prospectus, it is not there. We have produced a system where the really produced a system where the really diligent, intelligent, motivated parent can find their way through

**** Possible New Speaker ****

parent can find their way through the system. But anybody... In that case, east Sussex are not fulfilling the requirements of the statutory code that I have spelt out in my response. I would be surprised in my response. I would be surprised if that were the case. But if that is the case, then of course I would be willing to look into that. But the government has made clear the requirement both on schools to publish their admissions arrangements on their website and on local authorities to publish a composite prospectus about the admissions arrangements of all the schools in their areas.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I have not done a complete survey but I am not aware of a single local authority that does produce a composite prospectus in the old composite prospectus in the old

**** Possible New Speaker ****

style any more. But absolutely... You might have been putting quite a lot of emphasis on the old-style a lot of emphasis on the old-style impression, my lord. I think it is on a website and I am not sure the requirement to produce a written

**** Possible New Speaker ****

prospectus for all parents is necessarily something that we would require in this day and age, is it? No, my lord. I would expect a website PDF. But something website PDF. But something containing the information which is supposed to be there to make it possible for parents to go to one place and see what the criteria is, place and see what the criteria is, the way it works for all the schools within that local authority that within that local authority that they might be interested in.

This is widely not happening and nor is that widely not happening and nor is that information available on school websites. I have checked a few. No, cannot find that either. There is cannot find that either. There is supposed to be a system but it is not. So yes, I will take up the invitation from the noble Baroness to pursue this afterwards but I think that it is important we get back to a system where ordinary, hard-pressed parents can easily find the information they need to make good decisions for their children.

I very much hope that the noble Baroness would be able to reassure me at some stage that the admissions me at some stage that the admissions information will form part of the profile of schools which is talked about in the announcement which was made at the same time as the announcement of the new Ofsted systems. I think there is a real premise in that. If the noble Baroness can tell me more about what government plans are, for what should be in the profile, and have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that available, I should be very grateful but for now I beg leave to withdraw. Is it the pleasure of your Lord

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is it the pleasure of your Lord Shipley amendment be withdrawn? By leaf withdrawn. Now the group of amendments beginning with 450.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Clause 53. Baroness Longfield. I beg to move the amendment in my
16:10
Baroness Longfield Portrait Baroness Longfield (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I beg to move the amendment in my

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I beg to move the amendment in my name. Related to managed moves. I also speak to amendment 453 in the also speak to amendment 453 in the name of Lord Storey. This is a group of children who are literally moved between schools and who at the moment are pretty much out of the spotlight and are not in any way accountable back into the system. It is a very practical amendment and looks to provide a framework that is consistent and transparent so we do not lose these children.

We ensure we know where they are and we know when moves are in their best interests. Managed moves relate to permanent changes on a school registration. Where a move is not the result of a permanent exclusion, a transfer to a special school, school closures or moving between educational phases. They are currently not monitored or regulated in many areas. While some local authorities have very strong authorities have very strong protocols, and partnerships meaning managed moves operate well, the lack of appropriate guardrails to ensure moves between schools are in the best interests of the child have some problematic practices.

In the current system frequently neither current system frequently neither the local authority nor indeed government knows where or even if the child is being educated after a managed move. And a report uncovered a deeply concerning trend where it was estimated for every child that was permanently excluded, there were 10 more invisibly being moved around the system behind that. There are also reports that sometimes children can almost be traded between different schools and systems within this process.

Some children will spend a lot of time out of school as a result of being moved time and time again. So the solution being proposed here is very practical. It brings managed moves in line with suspensions and exclusions. It proposes that they are put through the existing access protocol and that local authority's report on their use to the Department for Education. This would subject managed moves to a collaborative review and ensure appropriate local authorities and the Department for education have knowledge and oversight and it would be important that this discussion should an application to the protocol should happen before the move is initiated, to make sure that the education of the child is not disrupted as a result.

We would want the local authorities to keep good records. We would want to be clear where responsibility lies for that child responsibility lies for that child as they move between schools. Also we would want a stipulation this does not apply to a child when they That there is a need for a definition of managed moves. And for those moves to be reported back to the department. With an annual report on the numbers and the nature report on the numbers and the nature of those moves.

There is an opportunity to draw on really good practice in many areas and create a standardised approach which would be fair, transparent and accountable. Ultimately also in the best interests of the child. I think this interests of the child. I think this really speaks to the ambition we all have been increasing opportunities for all children and strengthening inclusion as well. It is what we all want to see. I think it is practical and doable and I look forward to the response of the Minister on this.

I beg to move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

, Line 26, insert the words as

**** Possible New Speaker ****

printed on the Marshall list. My lord, I speak in support of my amendment, 452 and amendment 454, the control of admissions into schools. This is a fraught issue for schools. This is a fraught issue for parents trying to get their children into excellent schools which lacked sufficient places, so the unpleasant
16:15
Lord Agnew of Oulton Portrait Lord Agnew of Oulton (Conservative)
-
-
sufficient places, so the unpleasant word rationing has to apply. When a shortage of places is structural, outstanding schools can be and are supported to expand facilities. In my trust we have an outstanding school that started out in special measures more than 10 years ago. It has almost doubled cohort size in that time and I am grateful to the local authority and the Department for supporting this expansion in physical terms. This year it was the highest performing secondary school in Norfolk at GCSE. I am proud of the staff who achieved that.

But more relevant for this legislation, it shows the system can work well Either through demography or weak schools operating with larger pans, pupil admission numbers, and they can justify. Parents aren't stupid and once the reputation of a school starts to slide the discriminating ones will be looking elsewhere. My experience in Norfolk too often these weak schools in the primary phase are local authority schools. Rather than face the necessary pain of reducing their size through limiting the whole PAN they follow the line of least resistance, asking outstanding schools to reduce the intake so that children's can be spread around.

This is convenient for bureaucrats, no unseemly costs, and is the problem is solved by clawing in children who otherwise receive a good or outstanding education nearby. But if these good schools are choked up the problem is "old". It can work in the other direction, a good school operating with an optimal PAN risks being forced by local authority to widen it so they have to accept children being permanently excluded from nearby schools. Those exclusions are very often required because of the failure of the expelling school in properly handling difficult children stop good local school is then forced to take these troubled children on.

In that case, what should be happening is that the local authority OFSTED, the Department for DfE should be challenging the school getting rid of its difficult children, not dumping them up the road because they not strong enough to deal with the issues themselves. These judgements as I'm sure you will know are extremely nuanced. Often expulsion is the only solution after other avenues have been exhausted. If it is a good school making those decisions, probably a child needs to go into some form of alternative or special school provision.

It only takes a couple of unruly children in a class to damage the education for all of the others. The point I'm trying to make is that a blunderbuss to power to the local authority to intervene in these areas is in most cases much more likely to do damage and assault problems. Yes go after the 23% of expedient or indeed scrupulous heads who are abusing the admissions system but don't make the job of the other 97% harder still. We have to rely on the judgement of our head to.

In these difficult situations. We heard from my noble friends Lord Addington and he is right. These are very difficult situations. They can't be dealt with from a bureaucrats office. As I said last week, the matter of teacher recruitment and qualifications, all you're doing this Bill is making it harder in the areas of deprivation. We already have to cope with a vicious cycle of poor education in these places. Deprived areas have more poor schools with low attainment and high proportion of permanent exclusions.

In according to the IPPR a think tank children on free school meals are five times likely to be permanently excluded. How is this Bill is it's worded with its submission change is going to help those children? Reducing the PAN of good schools and to various reduces those engine of social and widening them achieves the same dismal outcome for a different route. Putting local authorities in charge of admission is really akin to putting the fox into the chicken coop.

They have an entrenched conflict-of-interest, physically at the primary phase and face virtually no consequences if they continue to reside over weak or failing schools under their control. Protect the schools from this arbitrary behaviour. It's absolutely nice is that some academies have behaved with their own self interest, badly. I do not for a second defend that. My sister with all things in a bad and all things Academy good. In any walk of life you find a vast range, look at our own politicians.

But is White my amendment is carefully together using the help of people clever and more plugged in than me. Provides local authorities with the ability to step in where existing admissions behaviour is not in the interest of children, but it protects good schools from arbitrary interventions by the local authority. In my own trust we were asked to reduce the PAN of an outstanding rated primary school in Norwich, to deal with their bureaucratic problem as I outlined a moment ago. In Norwich there are around 24 primary schools, and last year only five achieved national better at Key Stage 2.

That is the crisis, the solution is not strong collating the few that are doing a good job. In relation to my proposal to oppose course 55, stand part of the bill, remove that matter of good process but amendment 454 builds on 452 as it gives scope for schools to appeal against arbitrary decisions on emissions. What really matters is that the emissions authority, the school in most cases, is a good centre of learning any decision to tamper with the judgement being made by those running schools should be required to keep this principle at the centre of their thinking.

I beg to move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I stand to oppose the moment for
16:21
Baroness Bousted Portrait Baroness Bousted (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I stand to oppose the moment for 5 to which would limit local authorities to intervene in admission situations the admission authority has failed to meet its authority has failed to meet its admissions objectives obligations has behaved improperly. Local authorities have a statutory responsibility under section 14 of the 1996 Education Act to ensure that enough places in schools available in their area for every child at compulsory school age. The provision in this bill to create a duty on schools to cooperate with local authorities to enable them to carry out their duties as required by law and to cooperate on seven -- C visible.

It ends the nonsense of academies being allowed to set their own PAN numbers without regard to the numbers of pupils in the catchment area. Multi-academy trusts and academies are no longer outlined, they run over 46% of primary and 83% of synergy school. The government has a duty to ensure local authorities have a legal requirement to provide school place and conducive. This requires local authorities and multi-academy trusts to together to ensure place planning is done effectively and cost effectively and this is particularly important now as we are experiencing a decline in the birthrate which is affecting primary places at the moment, and will move to secondary places.

The sustained rising have seen in people number since the early 2010s has now been reversed, the number of pupils overall in England's school system decreased in January with a drop of over 59,000 pupils. Primary numbers have been falling for several years but secondary numbers are due to peak in 2027, before falling as the population bulge moves out of compulsory education. These people demographics require coordinated placed money. We cannot have the situation where local authorities are illegally responsible for providing places to pupils but have no powers to direct the majority of schools in the area which are academies to cooperate in place planning admissions and exclusions.

We cannot leave local authorities with the responsibility but without the authority to require court motion on these legal duties.
16:24
Lord Nash Portrait Lord Nash (Conservative)
-
-
It is a delight to follow the noble lady, she may be pleased to hear that I have advised my noble friend on the correct pronunciation of her name. I didn't hear very well when we were here last week, there was a word devil into, but having checked, Hansard, I see that she seemed to think that when we had some dealings I thought she was doing the devils work working for unions. I couldn't possibly think that, I have always found her a most charming person to deal with and as opposed to the devils work recommend doing the Lord's work in their campaign and I look forward to talk to them about that.

I welcome the noble Lady Baroness Black and I hope she's finding atmosphere the Labour Party escalates you'll that she found it there, although in the current circumstances may not very much so. I write to support the amendments in the names of my noble Lady friend Ballance Darren and the noble Lord live in the real world teaches one that the benefits of competition are that strong organisations survive and expand and weak ones demise. Whilst I accept that in some areas there may be schools in remote community is where the available -- available to schools is essential, as no riding policy, I believe allowing competition has been proven to be a good thing.

Take for instance the London Academy of excellence in Stratford which started in rising tide of boats, apart from its own excellent performance, it has had a dramatic effect on the performance of the other six schools in the area. Good schools must be allowed to expand to not allow this is to deprive children of benefits and they should not be. Shoestring. Insofar as my noble Lord 's amendments is concerned about complex, local authorities clearly have a conflict of interest under the proposed revisions and also surely there must be right of appeal are set out in his amendments.

I also support noble lady's amendment five A2, because high-performance schools should be given the freedom

**** Possible New Speaker ****

as her amendment asks. ... Questions in the name of Lord

**** Possible New Speaker ****

... Questions in the name of Lord Agnew. On managed moves, if I can see something on that beforehand, I think managed moves are really good
16:26
Baroness Morris of Yardley Portrait Baroness Morris of Yardley (Labour)
-
-
think managed moves are really good things when they done well because they can prevent permanent exclusions. Because I know Birmingham very well, the size of Birmingham, sometimes the managed moves are made no consulted basis and I would ask that my noble friend who moved the amendment to reflect on whether you make that more bureaucratic in terms of the local authorities overall well, it will put too much of administrative burden on what is working very well in some parts of the city.

I'm not saying it's working well everywhere but where it is working well on a consortium basis it would be a shame to add layers of bureaucracy to that. On the whole the managed moves are very good. In terms of the admissions, my starting point in the same is Lord Agnew's and Lord Nash's why would you want to prevent a good school expanded. If something is good, why wouldn't you want more children going to it? I hold that at the centre of this, because that is true, but life is not as simple as that and it is not only the interests of that school and those children who might go to it that are affected by the amendments.

I was reflecting back to both noble Lords who I think one of the best things they did when they were ministers was recognise the early lie by the coalition government in having stand-alone academies and not including schools to work together, and the work they did in terms of the trust was a good step forward from what we have had at the start of the coalition government. And inherent in is that understanding that schools don't stand-alone. At their best they work with each other, help each other, depend on each other, and the key thing is they do no harm to each other.

They don't make life more difficult for the school down the road. I think that goes further than a multi- academy trust. If you take a geographical area, Birmingham, Camden, Coventry, which I know reasonably well, there is something about that place that every school in that area has in common. They teach the children of Birmingham. It doesn't matter whether they are an academy or a faith school or a free school or independent school. What they hold in common is that they teach the children who go to school in that area.

And I think they are the same obligation to each other as I have just praised in multi-academy trusts, do no harm, support each other, help each other, and compete as well. So you want to get to the top of the table but you don't want to do it at the expense of the school down the road because we want all schools to thrive and I think the problem with the amendments that are there is that admissions, if they were to follow these amendments, will harm other schools serving the same group of children and I think that is a problem.

And that is why I would oppose these amendments. A number of things, if numbers are rising and there has got to be an expansion of places, I take the point, why not expand good schools. I have often thought that is not a simple as claimed to be, sometimes the success of the school is the size of the school will stop and you can't put into five or six more children, it doesn't work. You end up putting 30 more children into you, you raise it by one form of entry, and over seven years you have got over 200 pupils and the change in the size of the school sometimes makes it different in nature and culture, and admire the damage its academic performance and its pastoral work.

So don't think expanding in schools at no cost at all. I think that something to pay. The other thing is that if we accept that corporate possibly the for all children that go to schools in that area, one sure way of making sure that other schools fail is to take kids away from them because the operating system of resources following children. And every child the goes out of that school to a successful school, money goes away from the school and its really difficult to then get back on your feet and would you then have a slow decline.

You have some children who have gone through five years of education while the numbers have been declining and maybe it closes at the end but it does not close to begin with because people think, the Department thinks there is an academy and succeed, they might build a new housing estate, they might need it. It is very complex and I think it's complex because schools have two Christmas abilities, one and foremost for the children they teach, that is the competition, but secondly that joint responsibility for every child in that area.

We go on about place. We now think places important. If place matters, there has to be a body that looks at admissions over a geographical area. And I can't think of anybody but the local education authority. If anyone else scans I would be prepared to listen but in the absence of that I think the bill, part of the bill the bill, part of the bill the If you change the admissions arrangements you can get into a situation where some parents have got no choice at all cost of the school nearest to them might be a single sex school or may be a faith school or they might not be close enough to the school if they have expanded to get airplay so you are left with no choice at all except to go to the school that was not strong to begin with and that makes your life more difficult because you take action over declining numbers, so this is not as easy as saying that schools expand, if it was Governments would have done because that is what every Government I have ever known has stated to do and it is for complex, so I hope that we can reflect on those comments.

can reflect on those comments.
16:32
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
That last point which was very incisively made by the Baroness. Free schools it was a popular school and we wanted to increase the size to three-quarter of entry. The authority initially said no because if you do that you will take children from the two other primary schools in the locality and we can those schools. At the time they were miffed about this but OK. And what we need to do is to build up the numbers and the esteem of those other primary schools and they did that very successfully.

Then they agreed that my school could become the three form entry school and it is not just about size, it is also about schools working together and the Baroness Pidgeon tribute quite rightly to the role that as Ministers loves Agnew and Nash played in terms of establishing the Academy. One area that I think has never in my mind worked for me has been the fact that you can have if you like the headquarters of the Academy at the other end of the country.

It has never worked for me that a multi-Academy trust can have schools in Devon and Cornwall and also the north-east, so where is that community field? The trouble with expanding schools is that you can get to a situation were schools just want to grow and grow and grow because they get more money and they can get two large for those existing Children and Families Act. I think of the school that my wife worked at which was 1/7 form entry comprehensive which was allowed to increase its size to 11.

And it just became completely unmanageable. Also by taking this and again I will repeat it as the Baroness Morris rightly said in many cases you are just putting almost close notice on that school and those children their way to deal with it is to provide the resources, provide the expertise, and make that school popular, not by moving children but allowing children in schools to grow but by putting in real expertise to change the character and expectation of that school.

So, I put my name to the motion, amendment put down by Baroness Longfield and also I put in an amendment myself and first of all I understand the definition of management that is a permanent move of a child from one school to another for reasons not related to family. And it is important to put that into context as well and to remind ourselves that currently 1.49 million children are consistently absent from school and 1,700, 1070 1,000 children are severely absent from school.

And the who is losing learning report of 2025 said they uncovered a deeply concerning trend for every permanently excluded child 10 more moved between schools or of entirely. These moves are unregulated and unmonitored, meaning too often even the Department of education does not know where or even if these children are being educated following the move. Managed moves when done correctly can have great success, although for the pupil and the school, this is why these amendments that are very similar are so important and we do need a fair access protocol to make sure that when we carry out those managements between schools we know how it is happening and I do like the notion that they should report on this perhaps or not creating more bureaucracy but just confidence in the system, so I hope the Minister when she replies will tell us how important it is to get this right.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I am speaking in support of my Noble Friend Baroness Barran's amendments to clause 55 and my noble friend's amendment 454. I my noble friend's amendment 454. I have heard much around the House this afternoon, it is extremely
16:38
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
-
-
this afternoon, it is extremely important. But I think there are some wider points to make. There are many romantic expectations of school but there is a perfect world in which the child will go to the school that then their parents choose, no matter how extreme a child's needs, and in which no child will ever cause harm to any other child or adult in the school and in this perfect world they expect children to be distributed permanently perfectly evenly between schools and any measure that we choose to analyse the population but this is the dream and chasing dreams rarely's children's experience in the real world.

And sadly it is entirely possible that the extra powers that will backfire, especially with policy pressure on priorities to keep even the worst behaved children in mainstream schools irrespective of the consequences. Consider a child for whom they are trying to find a managed move, if civil schools declined to accept the child it may mean they are shirking their responsibilities, or it may be that they have correctly assessed that the child needs are too great for that school or any mainstream school to manage the child safely.

One shocking case that I saw as chief expect related to a girl that was ripped by a boy that had come to her school on a managed move and at worst the receiving school had not worst the receiving school had not been informed by the sending school or the IPL eight of the boys known history of serious sexual misconduct. No school should be levered into putting other children at risk in this way. No, if the child reverted the child to one of its own schools it still has direct responsibility for the child but if it can direct the child to an Academy it has offloaded the problem at least in part.

There is an obvious incentive here for local authorities to use this power to offload the most difficult children and leave academies to shoulder a disproportionate responsibility for the most difficult and dangerous children and also to inflict the greatest risk on young children and staff in those academies. Let us also consider the point that when a decision will relate to a single child good schools do also have to consider how many children with behavioural problems they can manage and support properly without destroying the very strengths that make people work effectively with such children.

I have seen how difficult this is already for local authorities in the context of SEMD and then a school to which the child and then a school to which the child should be permitted. In theory, it is parents that she was that school, but in practice local authorities have significant influence over those parent choices, and some local authorities have perhaps on occasion found it convenient to encourage parents to choose academies rather than maintain schools, or at the very least not discourage them from doing so.

And, as a result, some popular and successful academies they are facing real difficulties, I know of cases where local authorities expected the school to fill more than 1/3 of their year seven places with children requiring intensive individual support, many of them with behavioural problems. This would have turned that schools into specialist deferred to schools without private infrastructure support of special schools. It is in fact extraordinarily difficult for local authorities to be impartial as between instream schools and for this reason I strongly support my noble friend's amendment for five to set a requiring local authorities to act impartially as to maintain local schools and academies.

And the principal should be explicit on the face of the act and similarly my noble friend's amendment 4538 and amendments for 57ABC to ensure that changes to school admission numbers are made in the interests of children and parents rather than the administrative local authority. Again, these decisions would always Again, these decisions would always be hard and would never please everyone, but it is right and important that children's needs are put explicitly first. Then it is all too certain that the shrinking cohort some excellent schools will see their schools restricted while mediocre schools carry on.

My noble friend's Lord Agnew's amendment 454 gives some protection to this principle. I hope the Government will see how unfortunate this would be and take steps to guard against it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Clause 53 covers the role of
16:43
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
schools in general and academies in particular in relation to the people please plan and as we know in the vast majority of cases academies to cooperate and do fulfil their role in helping the local authority to meet its sufficiency duties as the bill says so far as is reasonable, close 54 gives the local authority new powers to direct individual pupils despite the fact that those powers already exist for the Secretary of State to use but then the funding agreement for the categories, the policy notes say in my opinion slightly quaintly schools and local authorities interest may not always be aligned and they are not expected to agree on all admissions and place planning matters, however it is expected that they will behave reasonably and collaboratively.

For example, considering the views on being willing to meet and discuss differences and sharing information in a timely manner. All this is fine, but presumably the point of the clause is to get quicker decisions and to address a problem of academies apparently unreasonably refusing to accept these pupils. But where is the evidence that this is true? In the academic year 23/24 just under 11,000 exclusions looking at later on the departments website for exclusions and extensions including incredible differences in the rates of permanent exclusion in particular, even enabling local authorities.

And this is true both for local authorities were almost all academies and those when there predominantly maintain schools. I understand that the 85% of exclusions are happening in secondary schools and with the vast majority of secondary schools being academies, we do need to ensure that those people that can continue in mainstream do so and those that cannot placed in high quality alternative provision. But I had been unable to find the data on the number of pupils both when an Academy has refused to accept them and where the Secretary of State has required the Academy to do so.

I think it is important that we understand both of these figures, the first to give a sense of the scale of the issue and the second to quantify how many pupils are impacted by what might be defined as unreasonable refusal on the part of the Academy. If the noble Baroness the Minister does not have that data with her today, would she write to We also want to know how stable the placements are, and how many are excluded again.

But even without this data, we are worried about the principal which we have discussed in earlier groups of overriding the funding agreement powers. We are worried about the real conflict-of- interest with local authority both running schools and having the power to place more challenging children in particular schools, so my amendment for 51ZA in particular schools, so my amendment for 51ZA6 to get clarity that the legal status of the school will not have any bearing on where a child is placed. The noble Baroness the Minister will be aware that there are concerns expressed in evidence given to the Public Bill Committee in the other place that having large numbers of children, the example that my noble friend just gave 1/3 of children in year seven who perhaps have already moved school several times and been excluded, what impact that has on the perception of that school and the local authority.

It is important that this legislation is fair and feels fair, so I think it is important that the Minister explains how this is a conflict of interest how this is a conflict of interest with the local authority as Fox and the chicken coop will be resolved. My noble friend has offered an alternative to clause 54. Amendment 452 makes it clear that the local authority should only be directing an academy to admit children and that trust has failed to meet its obligations or where there is clear evidence of disadvantage or unfair treatment.

And it also requires the local authority making the direction to provide evidence and carry out a consultation with the admission authority before doing so. All this seems like common sense to me and brings a sense of Allen's to the desire to expedite the placement of children who are in need of a school place, and I support my noble friends amendment 100%, and I think it really does address the points raised by the noble lady about not in anyway interfering with the local authorities duties.

Lord Agnew has also highlighted some of potential problems with clause 55 which gives the local authority the power to direct admission of an individual child, and I know the government has argued that this is no real change in academy freedoms, but simply a chance for a power from the Secretary of State to the local authority. But this is happening in the context where mainstream schools are being asked to take children who arguably should be in either specialist or alternative provision. Of course they need certainty about where they will be educated, but the where they will be educated, but the pressure to be inclusive needs to be weighed by the children and the school room.

The schools adjudicator determines school admission numbers as a result of upholding an objection or a referral. The Explanatory Notes to the bill says the government seeks to amend these regulations to enable local authorities to also submit an objection where the admission number has been increased or maintained at the same level as the previous year. Currently, the school adjudicator can only consider objections where the admission authority has decreased their published admission numbers. The change presented by the government will mean it will consider objections where a school is seeking to retain or increase its pupil numbers, and the school adjudicator decision will determine the plan which the school must adopt.

And we just think this clause needs rethinking, and my amendment offers the government different ways of improving on it as well as arguing that clause 56 should not stay as part of the bill. The government's impact assessment is clear that they want local authorities to have more influence over plans for school in their areas. This is happening at a time where it is well known that pupil numbers are falling, particularly in London. The impact assessment also says this would include scenarios where schools plan is set at a level which creates viability issues for another local school.

This point was reinforced by Rachel, the president from children's services in an interview with schools week in April. She said that schools needed to be where your children are, so it's not helpful to have one particular type expands beyond the authority which causes lots of people to seek to travel. She goes on that it is better to invest resource and attention in improving the school where it is to serve the community that it is based in and I really do understand the pressure on local authority when a school becomes unviable and potentially has to close.

I spent many hours deliberating on these things when I was in the Department but we cannot allow a situation where good schools are forced to reduce in size to protect a less popular and underperforming school. This damages the opportunities for children and cuts across parental choice. To quote the government again, if a school is required to lower their plan, some pupils who would otherwise have been admitted will be unable to attend the school. This will negatively impact on parental preference, especially if the school was the parents first choice.

So my amendment is 453 a and 457 a seek to ensure firstly that the adjudicator takes into account the performance and popularity of the school, and secondly, that the adjudicator can only receive objections in relation to In power, and 457B would allow high performing schools to increase their plan. We are not weathered to the exact educational metrics in that amendment but we do think there is an important point of principle at stake here. Amendment 453B increases the bill as we would like to limit making powers in the legislation, and I think the adjudicator will use to make a determination will change so frequently.

So can the noble Baroness explain why the government needs this flexibility. Some of the criteria will be on the bill in relation to the definition of full- time education in an earlier clause. There are real concerns about the role of the adjudicator in this context and so amendment 451 gives admission authorities the right to appeal and surely this is a sensible edition. To be clear, unless the government accepts at least my amendment 457B, it is saying that it is prioritising the financial stability of an underperforming school on the quality of education.

And indeed the safety of other And indeed the safety of other principles. On these benches, we are really clear that this is the right choice. With apologies to the house, I overlooked which should have been in an earlier group if the Minister is wondering why it is in this group. This seeks to implement part of the 2002 education act passed under the previous Labour government. This section was never implemented for reasons that I don't fully understand, but I think it goes to the heart of the issue about how we create a self improving school system.

I hope the noble Baroness the Minister will take the amendment in the spirit that it is intended and not spend any time pointing out how regimes have changed over time. Namely, that we want to create a self improving system, a system for our schools that has new creative and intellectual energy, a system that is curious and wants to learn, and one that respects and listens to the evidence. One that feels that it has the agency to make change and the accountability to drive improvement.

So my amendment would achieve the government's goal of consistency in the way that academies and maintained schools are treated, but would rather give the same freedoms to both high performing academies and high performing maintained schools. I think I am right in saying that this is the work of the noble Baroness of Yardley when she was Secretary of State, and this amendment gives the government the chance to complete the noble Baronesses work, but it achieves that goal by increasing autonomy rather than increasing central control.

Our nation and our government face a huge challenge in improving public services and I would urge the Minister to consider this carefully. Education was the area which saw the greatest improvements under the previous government, and it was the area where the autonomy and accountability principle was tested at scale. Not every trust has used its freedoms at all, and not every trust used them well, but the most successful trust, particularly for disadvantaged children did use those freedoms and did not just use them well but use them brilliantly.

And our accountability systems have developed to address those who did not, so why wouldn't the government want to see more of this? At a time when we need to see the same out first of creativity and effective practice in relation to special educational needs and disabilities, for example. This is surely an obvious choice. If the government rejects my amendment which would simply implement their own parties legislation, then I think we will all be left thinking that we should judge the government does, not by what it says.

What do all the reality of the actions of the government going the opposite direction? I think this is an acid test of the government's vision. I beg to move the amendment in my name in this group and that clause 56 should not stay as part of the bill.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Turning 1st to causes 54 and
16:57
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Turning 1st to causes 54 and clause 55, a matter of which the clause 55, a matter of which the noble Lord Agnew opposes staying part of the bill, together, these clauses extend local authorities current powers to direct maintained schools to admitted child to also enable them to direct academies in the same way. They were important elements of this bill which are about future proofing the system. As I explained last week in talking about the nature of the National Curriculum, if quite rightly a majority of our schools or schools which are teaching the majority of our children are academies, and if we do as a government want to continue the progress to see more academies developing and opening, we do need to futureproof the system, and it is the case at the moment that local authorities can only direct, in the circumstances in which the very particular circumstances that they need to direct admissions into half or even fewer schools than.

And they also enable the school admissions code to set out additional circumstances in which directions can be made to ensure school places for vulnerable children can be secured more quickly and efficiently. Enabling local authorities to direct into academies without needing to make a request by the Secretary of State will help to reduce delays in securing vulnerable children in school place. It is right that there is a route to direct into an academy, but that requires making a request to the Secretary of State.

The average number of days for that to be determined is 38 days. That is a long time for a vulnerable child to be without a school place. These will create a more streamlined directions program with a fair access protocol for an place and vulnerable children has failed to secure a child a school place, and together, these measures will help provide a robust and consistent safety net for vulnerable children, ensuring that no child falls between the cracks.

Turning to amendment 452 which amends the circumstances in which local authorities can direct admissions and places certain requirements on academy admissions and to amendment for 5 to set a table by Baroness Barran requiring local authorities to not take into account a schools academy status in Noble Lords are absolutely right it is important these decisions are made in the best interest of the child and the impartiality between types of schools should be maintained. Legislation already contains protections to ensure that local authorities powers of direction can only be used in limited but deserving circumstances.

As well as consulting with the child's parent and schools, local authorities must ensure decisions are made in the child's interests. Including ensuring the school is suitable to the child's needs. These decisions and proposals are all about ensuring children's needs. Not as the Noble Lord Agnew continues to keep calling those people who have decided to devote their careers to looking after children and our schools bureaucrats which I do think is the shame and I hope that Noble Lord does not mean it in a disparaging manner in which he continues to use it.

Public law principles already prevent local authorities taking account of relevant factors when taking decisions such as whether a school is an Academy or not. Of course we recognise the point made by noble Lords about the potential for conflict-of-interest here and that is why this measure will also give the Academy trusts new right to reject to the independent school adjudicator they disagree with the local authorities decision to direct a child into their school. Turning to amendment 450 and 453 tabled by my Noble Friend Baroness Longfield, on arranging the moves to protocols I think there have been some important and useful points made by my Noble Friend about the way in which managed moves might actually be appropriate in being organised but I certainly also agree with my Noble Friend Baroness Longfield as I think I spelt out in the previous group that it is absolutely right that we should maintain a close eye and improve oversight of pupil movement and that is why we are already doing so by strengthening accountability through reforms to OFSTED the annual reviews of safeguarding attendance and pupil movement, including of rolling.

I think that my concern about right Noble Friends amendments is not in the intention but it is in the practicalities because these amendments would require a fair access protocol to be invoked in almost every situation where people move permanently to another school. I do not think that for my noble friend's introduction that was her intention but that would be the effect of the amendment. And that of course is not the intended function of fair accessible protocols and would actually delay vulnerable pupils from accessing that place.

Turning to amendments related to clause 56 on published admission numbers. And the Noble Lady Baroness Barran has indicated that she intends to look at where this should stand part of the bill, close 56 provides that where the adjudicator upholds an objection to the schools plan they can specify the new plan to be in the schools admission arrangements here I think we had a very important and help intervention from my Noble Friend pointing out of course the duty that local authorities have to secure sufficient places for children within the areas in which they have responsibilities and it is important therefore for us to ensure that local authorities have the ability and the reality to be able to do that.

In some areas we know that schools do not offer enough places to meet local needs. Equally, in areas of forming pupil roles, some schools increase or retain this beyond what is needed. This can make it harder for the local authority and school leaders to plan effectively. Hurting pupil outcomes and even I know there is concern from noble Lords that the impact of this would be to somehow or other prevent the quality and the parental choice that I think all of us are concerned about here.

As my Noble concerned about here. As my Noble Friend baroness pointed out if it is impossible or hard for local authorities and school leaders to plan effectively, that, in itself, may well have the effect of hurting people outcomes and damaging other good schools and in doing so limiting parental choice, all of which we agree that we want to protect and promote. This measure will be supported by changes to regulations and the schools admissions code to enable local authorities to object where this is increased or retained and to create new rules to ensure the quality of provision and parental choice are key considerations throughout.

And I have to say on this point about using regulations in our discussions, with the representatives of trusts there has been a strong recognition that it is appropriate in these particular circumstances to do this through the approach of regulations, and of course that also enables us to continue that consultation and to make sure that those regulations in the school admissions code to for all of us from different kinds of schools as well that they want to see delivered here.

Alongside changes to regulations this clause will help create a clearly legible framework for how the decisions are made to ensure children have access to the best education that they can achieve and thrive. Turning now to amendments 453 a and 453B, 457 a tabled by the Noble Lady Baroness Barran, I want to reassure noble Lords that a combination of changes to the statutory admissions code and the new regulations will ensure quality and parental choice or a key criteria in any decision and that other relevant factors are given due consideration.

In those cases pupils will be best served by high performing schools growing or retaining existing plans, but such decisions also need to consider the interests of children already enrolled in other good local schools. Rather than a rigid inflexible approach it is important that admissions authorities, local authorities, and the adjudicator are able to take into account the totality of local circumstances to ensure that the needs of all pupils in the community are met. And as I have suggested we do consider that these matters are best addressed by the regulations that are provided in clause 56.

We want to work in the sector to develop these regulations to ensure that these are clear, comprehensive and best meet the needs of pupils in schools. Turning to amendment 774454 tabled by Lord Agnew seeking to get a route for them to repeal the decision made by the adjudicator, of course the adjudicator already exists and has done under the previous Government and under the Government before that in which IN other education Ministers at various points the adjudicator already exists as an independent body appointed by the Secretary of State.

They will take an impartial view on the objection from the local authority at the end of a rigorous statutory process. To create a separate appeal that would duplicate their role, of course in extremist authorities can already challenge an adjudicator's decision through judicial review. Finally, turning to amendment 502 in the name of the Noble Lady I have to say we didn't think we had covered quite a bit of this last week in a interesting and lengthy discussions which is she says would maintain that schools could be exempt from and modify statutory teacher pay and conditions in the curriculum if they were considered as well performing and of course we share the aim of this amendment as we discussed last week at length we share the aim of ensuring a National Curriculum that can maintain within the National Curriculum to innovate and the ability to ensure that our Our airflow, not at ceiling and we want to ensure that there are consistent and high standards across schools.

This amendment in fact would propose a fragmented approach that is contrary to our guarantee for all children, through our wider reforms we want to ensure the ability to innovate and the flexibility to adapt to local needs that are available to every school, not just a select few, without compromising on this call standard, regarding the curriculum as we discussed last week the bill ensures that the core National Curriculum once reformed will be an entitlement for children in Academy schools as well as in mainstream schools and will provide the solid and broad foundation of knowledge skills and attributes that young people need to thrive and that they are entitled to receive in whatever school they attend.

The reformed natural curriculum however will still give schools including academies flexibility to tailor their teaching to the specific needs of their pupils and communities continuing to give them space to innovate without a ceiling and on the matter of conditions the bill enables the establishment to help ensure a competitive payoff after all state schoolteachers. This is crucial for recruiting and retaining the best teachers with high standards in our schools but through wider reforms to teacher pay and conditions we will spread best practice and innovation across the state school system by removing the ceiling on pay as is the case for academies and introducing greater flexibility is for all state schools, for example enabling more flexible working for teachers as we have discussed when previously considering this area.

I hope that given the assurances I have provided noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
17:13
Baroness Longfield Portrait Baroness Longfield (Labour)
-
-
Thank my Noble Friend Minister

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank my Noble Friend Minister for those points around that and the ambition is for all children to be ambition is for all children to be able to benefit from a great education and for them to thrive in school. The amendment I put forward was very much about keeping children was very much about keeping children within schools but also within the education system and it is a practical response and I have been practical response and I have been really pleased to bring together a group of schools and school leaders who are really putting forward a very positive practice there to meet with the education team and talk with the education team and talk about that, but with that in mind I beg to withdraw my amendment.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

beg to withdraw my amendment. Is at your Lordships pleasure the amendment be withdrawn? The amendment is by Lee, withdrawn. The amendment question is the close 53 stand part of the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. After clause 53 amendment 451, old story, not moved. In clause 54 amendment 452, not In clause 54 amendment 452, not moved. The question is that clause moved.

The question is that clause 54 stand part of the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. After clause 54 amendment 45 to set a Baroness Barran, not moved. For a Baroness Barran, not moved. For five to a and B, not moved. The question is that amendment 55 stand part of the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. After clause 55 amendment 453, Lord Storey, not moved.

In clause 56 amendment 450 3A, Baroness Barran, not moved. 450 3B, not moved, 454, not moved. The question is that clause 56 stand part of the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. After clause 56 amendment 455, not moved. Amendment 456, not moved. Amendment 457, not moved. Amendment 457 a, Baroness Barran, not moved. 450 7B, not moved. The question is that clause 57 stand part of the bill.

As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", The contents have it. The question is that clauses 58, 59, and We have just come to clause 57. I beg your pardon. I am in the wrong beg your pardon. I am in the wrong beg your pardon. I am in the wrong I do beg your pardon. Then I've got that in the wrong place as well. No, I haven't. Sorry, I'm somewhat confused because we've got to come to 58 to 60 and 61 to 62.

Yes, well, I did call that. Question was the clause 57 stand part of the bill. It has been debated. I beg your pardon. has been debated. I beg your pardon.
17:17
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
I, we seem, we have seen some of the most significant improvements in outcomes for pupils in our free schools with schools such as Michaela and Art Greenwich in London, Eden girls and boys, part of the star academy trust in Birmingham, and the Murcia school in Sheffield to name but a few achieving remarkable results. And I know that my noble friends Lord Harris, Lord Nash, and Lord Agnew are very likely to add to that list of exceptional free schools that they have been part of creating.

Free schools have been a mechanism for the injection of new ideas, new energy, and improving models of education into the state system. Free schools respond to parental and community demand. They provide parents with choice over their child's education and they have driven up standards. Free schools are usually part of a strong multi- academy trust which has a track record of delivering high quality education and the back office capacity needed to support smooth and financially sustainable operations across HR, finance, 80 premises and more.

Local authorities do not and have never had this same capacity and ability to provide tailored support to schools. The reason given for the change in policy in the bill to allow local authorities to open free schools in future is given in the policy summary that this measure better aligns local authorities responsibility for securing sufficient school places with their ability to open new schools. So, again, and if I may leap back to the previous group, I notice the noble Lady didn't commit to right but I'm sure her officials noted my request for the data in that group, but again, and can the noble Baroness the Minister share the evidence that there really is a gap in their ability to secure sufficient school places and cite any incidences where a local authority has been unable to meet their sufficiency duty as a result of a lack of applications from suitable trusts to establish a new free school.

Certainly, during my time in office, there were always multiple applications for new presumption free schools both mainstream and special schools. My worry is that this is an example of bureaucratic tidiness being prioritised over outcomes for children. The English system is not tidy. We have voluntary aided schools, foundation schools and many other models and on paper it might look messy but we have been still able to rise significantly at the global league tables because we have focused relentlessly on outcomes over bureaucracy and this clause feels like putting the bureaucrats diagrams first, even a bureaucrat with a big heart and a lifelong commitment to children.

Before the noble Baroness Goudie me to much. And all of this will change and will create higher cost for the government. In an interview with schools week in April, the new president of the ADC S said in relation to the range of new responsibilities that councils will be given in the bill that part of our ongoing dialogue is going to be about if you want us to do these things, then we're going to need to be resourced accordingly so can the noble Baroness the Minister given estimate of the funding needed for local authorities to fulfil their duties including in relation to free schools.

This proposed change creates a fundamental conflict-of- interest with local authority. They will both invite proposals for the free school when one is needed and be able to postpone themselves. They will then decide which proposal to approve. That is hardly a system designed to build confidence. We are told that when they put forward their own proposal, the Secretary of State will be the decision-maker, but this introduces an additional layer of work and there I say it bureaucracy in a system that is currently working reasonably well.

Organisations like the new schools network have been critical in supporting trusts establishing free schools and building capacity in the sector. So we think the change in policy created by clause 57 is a fundamental mistake and unnecessary, and I hope the noble Baroness the Minister will think again. My amendment 480 seeks to unblock the pipeline of free schools which have been put on hold since the election. I think there are 44 potential free schools on hold including some which would bring really high quality 16 to 19 education to areas of very high deprivation, including with a high percentage of white working class boys the Secretary of State has recently focused on.

Surely this is a way to demonstrate that focus and unlock those applications now. The government have so far spent twice as long reviewing the free schools pipeline and it took to open the free schools in 2010. Election to free score opening was 142 days. The announcement of the review in October. The announcement of the review in October 2024 to today is about 288 days. Overall, it feels that the whole programme has been delayed and I hope the Minister can reassure the house that this is not the case and put some numbers on how many places will open in the next three years from special and mainstream schools.

I would like to express my support for amendment 481 which would bring greater transparency to the accounts of maintained schools. I'm sure that my noble friend is tired of being told there is not enough transparency in relating to academies when there is no financial visibility for maintained schools. I beg to me.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I apologise to the committee and the noble Baroness for my confusion the noble Baroness for my confusion early on. My papers went marked up and I read them wrong. The question
17:24
Lord Agnew of Oulton Portrait Lord Agnew of Oulton (Conservative)
-
-
and I read them wrong. The question is the clause 57 stand part as the bell.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Addressing my amendment which is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Addressing my amendment which is a bit of a mixed bag this group, but I think it is relevant and I think it is relevant and important. It seeks to level the playing field and ensuring that there is a high level of financial governance with local authority schools compared to academies. Yet the credit must go to a previous Labour government for setting out/strong foundations to underpin the government academies. It is night and day when compared between academies and local authority schools.

I had a reputation for schools. I had a reputation for being something of a martinet when it came to discipline of school it came to discipline of school finances. People have made fun of me finances. People have made fun of me over the years which doesn't trouble me in the least because every pound I have saved from wasteful and poor management is then available from management is then available from the frontline in improving the education of children. The Minister education of children.

The Minister might even want to call me a bureaucrat because I have been so assiduous in that particular part of assiduous in that particular part of the system. I would love to see the overall school budget at a much higher level but that is not going higher level but that is not going to happen given the state of our country's finances. So we have to work with what we've got. The level of accountability and visibility of the oversight of our own schools is Nokia best.

An academy trust has to complete a full external audit of its finances within four months of being close in the academic year. That is between 31st of August and 31st of December. Accounts have to be filed with company house on that date. At that point, the full record of the trust financial affairs is available for public scrutiny for the year ending only four months the year ending only four months has seen it. Any trust that misses this deadline, any trust more than a month late was immediately placed on a risk register.

It schools or trustee can't get the money right, how can they ever get the education right? It really is that simple. But what visibility is there for local authority schools. Virtually nothing that is easily accessed. It is an endless battle to get this kind of information. Although we would complain frequently about not having enough money, they will rarely forthcoming about how a spending what they had. This is a very unacceptable state of affairs. If we look at some key categories of oversight and compare the levels of transparency, I hope you will see why this unbalanced situation needs correcting.

The accountable bodies. For academies, it is the Board of Trustees and the members sitting above that. The DfE trust Academy handbook sets the rules. These board members and the members themselves are wrong every academies website. The local authorities are their own accountable body and try talking to that person. Audited annual accounts I have already explained, but there are no requirements of anything similar for local authority schools. It is even worse that the average frequency of an internal local authority in the public's own schools about every three years and is virtually impossible to see a copy of those reports that I failed consistently when I was in the department.

Internal auditing for supper trust have a certain size which is another annual requirement. For those noble Lords not familiar with the term, an internal audit is not exactly as it says on the tin. An internal audit is looked at by internal specialists the looks of different areas of operation beyond finances such as deep dives into cyber ability, payroll, the condition of the school of state and so on. There is no such requirement for local authorities. Academies are required to submit annual accounts to the DfE and to 3 month budget forecast.

They also need to demonstrate compliance with the local authorities again put there is no standard account and they are not required to submit three year forecasts. Monthly management accounts. They are required to ensure that the Board of Trustees sees these four times a year. My noble friend actually reduced it and she was right that my bureaucratic obsession probably got the better of me. This is not required for chairs of governors and local authority schools. Related party transaction reporting have to comply with specific rules such as needing independent authorisation and larger sums.

It was 20,000 but I think my noble friend might correct me. But again, nothing like that with local authority schools. Publication of salary, academies have to disclose all salaries above £100,000. Local authority schools, not so. Only required at LA level. Estimates I have seen says there are over 1000 staff and the local authority schools across England that have exceeded that threshold, so any defence that it is not a material number of people in receipt of public money I don't think washes.

Website reporting are required to publish their audited accounts on their website. There is no requirement for local authorities to publish their school accounts and the accounting officer, academies have the point a minister with personal responsibility for accurate and timely reporting. No such thing exists in local authority schools. Given LAs are facing an unprecedented squeeze with some virtually bankrupt such as Birmingham, there should be no excuse for them to give up and up their game. The cost which will be the reflective defence for doing anything would be triggered against the improvement in the spending going on inside the LA schools and would be recouped many times over the cost of the audit fee.

Every time that I have taken over local authority schools, we have eliminated hundred thousands of pounds of expenditure which was then focused on teaching. In every secondary school inside my trust, because of the financial management, we have been able to extend the school day by three hours a week. If a child spends the full five years of his or her education in one of those schools, it is the equivalent of getting another year's education. That is what is at stake here.

Norfolk is not a well funded authority. We are not getting any handout but it shows you that if there was more rigour in the system, it would make an enormous difference There is a very simple solution that would drive the actual discipline to be part of the school system where this currently rules the roost. I beg to move. beg to move.
17:31
Lord Harris of Peckham Portrait Lord Harris of Peckham (Conservative)
-
-
I am very disappointed that we have got over 50 schools that are still waiting to hear the results from. We started taking schools back in 12, got 16 preschools a day all under the Conservatives. We got great results from these 16 schools, 12 outstanding, 14 good, and 15,000 children the. And this year though schools are different between the ordinary children and the disadvantaged children it was only 1%, so it proves that we want more of them. I want to see everyone get a good education step and the other point is that we want more schools because we have got teachers we have trained, we have got nearly 100 teachers trained to go into new schools and we are paying for them privately from investors to make it happen.

We cannot get schools, we can't get schools that are failing because they are going to have another two years of feeling that is very important. If you look at the results of the free schools and the County schools if you take primaries the free schools, every school in the country is 68%. The local councils is 62 and I am proud to say Paris is 76. Secondary which is finished for this year which is progress eight the secondaries or 0.24 and the council schools are 0.01.

And if we go to the A-levels they are fantastic with the academies, 29% of the children get a stars and is from the preschools against the country average of 26. This makes a big difference. We are giving children a better education. We want to be sure they get that education and I think we have got to schools that we worked on for two years and three years. One of them, this school is in an old mill, at the top of Tesco, a building down the road.

We were promised we would get a free school there where they are building for thousand and eight new houses, and at the moment we can't get an answer. The school was always inadequate. It was inspected last month, sorry, last month before the year end, the houses standing, the secondary outstanding and the sixth form got good. In the sixth form was at the top of the Tesco. 40 students do you know how many we have got now? 220 students in that area the conditions we are getting and giving people a good education and that is what we need to do.

We need a school with 1,500 students it happens and it works. I heard today that people said about primary schools some of them are too big and I do agree. We have got primary schools outstanding with 300 people, 300 students, and we have got schools with just under 1,000 pupils outstanding in the primary sector and by the way I about that, so what you need is motivated staff, motivated people, and motivated children that want to come to school and some of them do not.

When we take over a school we see three years to make that outstanding and 95% of the schools we have taken over our outstanding in three years. We talk to them, we put more people in, we cut the costs because the costs are very strong, they have got to many staff not doing things, we take them out, good staffing. Make sure they're happy. A child only get one chance at a good education and we have got to make sure every child in this country get a good education.

Then we can talk about a school in Greenwich. This is very disappointing. We spent nearly 3 years and nearly £1 million in our budget to improve attend other Government department spent a lot of money as well. We got it approved about six weeks before the election. It was in the press, before it opened it does not open for two years. The people want these good schools. They want them to not only have the schools put the schools all over the country they want good schools.

We have got to make sure that we give them good schools but we can't have the feeling schools that have been failing for two years for another two years which is nearly the lifetime of a child's education. I am a great believer in education, I know everyone here is, we have got to make sure it works and it happens and we have got to make sure they get a good education and I hope the Government look at these schools, make it happen, because they are very successful.

because they are very successful.
17:36
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Conservative)
-
-
I to rise to speak in the program and amendment to hundred and 80 in the name of my Noble Friend. Preschools have been a significant driver in this country over the last decade and 1/2 and their impact is being felt and that benefits they have needed most, today there are Educating hundreds of thousands of children and the results speak for themselves. Those free schools that have been inspected 93% R-rated good or outstanding by Ofsted and is my Noble Friend Lord Harris has just said this summer's exam results have confirmed their impact.

Preschools once again outperformed on selected state schools with GCSEs and A- levels hoping to drive up standards of high deprivation and traditionally poor educational achievement. 31.3% of A-levels statewide pupils and free schools achieved grade or a star compared to 25.2% by pupils in all state funded schools. 23.7% of GCSEs taken by pupils at preschools graded seven or above compared to 20.6% studied by pupils in all state funded schools and provisional results for 2025 Key Stage 2 show 70% of pupils for free schools met the expected standard for reading, writing and maths, compared to 63% of pupils or mainstream primary schools.

These are not isolated success stories, they look at the freedom work and the success of free schools has been especially striking, the new schools network report on the impact of free schools highlights the fact that they have been disproportionately located in the most deprived parts of the country and played a key role in improving access to high-quality places where they are most needed. Many of the stronger performers such as the Academy Fulton, Dixons Trinity Academy, Newent Collegiate six form, the star academies also have communities that have historically studied suffered.

Giving future to innovate, whether it is long school day or searching the curriculum are developing closings with businesses and universities has a measurable impact on outcomes, helping to close the disadvantage. So, given this record it is disappointing that the Government now seeks through clause 57 to weaken the very mechanism that has allowed these schools to flourish by removing the requirement flourish by removing the requirement to seek when a new school is needed and as the former national schools commissioner observed, free schools are excellent way of filling the supervision that are always obvious in Whitehall or local authorities and we should back school leaders and others to decide what their area needs.

Finally amendment for 80 tabled by my Noble Friend Baroness Barran would require the Secretary of State to proceed with the opening of 44 mainstream approved free school projects that were bought in October 2024 as we have heard many of these proposed new schools will offer incredible opportunities for young people in the areas they are due to be set up from ensuring that every English region has a 16 to university to proposals for new states exposed to support students from disadvantaged backgrounds through a collaboration between a leading private school and a multi- Academy trust in Oldham, Middlesbrough, and Dudley, since the report however there has been a lack of information and progress.

The 44 schools under review have not been publicly named and there has been a lack of transparency in the Department about the review process that is being followed, or indeed when it is due to conclude with officials only seeing that updates will be sent to trusts and local authorities in due course. Projector mounted the department before Christmas but have had little since, so can the noble Baroness the Minister please update the House on when the review will conclude to provide certainty to these projects? And she will not they have put a huge amount of work and effort into submitting their applications but have been in limbo for almost one year.

Furthermore, an educational request in The Other Place on 21 July in response to a question on capital resources to help expand this, the former Minister Stephen Morgan said that the Department and I quote hopes to replicate the success of these settings across the Two free schools in the pipeline, Nottingham and Durham. And a number of other 16 to projects proposed for outside London by trust with the Track Record of exceptional results, so the Government has the means to replicate the previously successfully have seen across the country at its fingertips, so why not approve the free schools and all the 44 schools in the pipeline? Preschools have delivered exceptional outcomes, expanded opportunity, and brought high- quality education to communities that for too long were left behind.

Clause 57 risks turning back the clock, while amendment for 80 would give certainty to 44 much-needed projects and ensure that the next generation of free schools could continue this record of success. I do hope the Minister will reflect on the positive contribution of the free school program that it has and it is making to hundreds of thousands of people's lives and ensure it is able to grow in order to further improve our education system particularly in areas that need it the most.
17:42
Lord Nash Portrait Lord Nash (Conservative)
-
-
It is a great honour to speak behalf of these amendments that I support in the name of my Noble Friend Baroness Barran. I thought the speech and the passion with which she spoke as a tribute to him and his team that have done the most remarkable job and it is also a tribute to the Government that had tribute to the Government that had the foresight to bring people in to help turn this around and that is why it is such a shame as I have said before to see this Labour Government appear to go back on many of those proposals and I hope this is not really the case.

And I begin to try and compete with my Noble Friend Lady Evans who so ably ran that free schools program, so far as my own experience is concerned it is limited to my group opening one primary school from Pimlico Academy because we believe strongly in education and the broader education, subject specific education for primary school was and where that can be delivered efficiently in our primary schools that is to exclusively tune children in state schools.

The Noble Lady will be aware that there academies were appointed by the previous Government to run the Latin excellence program of £4 million contract to print Latin to 40 state schools across the country who were not previously teaching it, something that we were doing. Sadly, this Government binned that program which is because the students love it, it helps them greatly with their grammar and their thinking skills. And I often say noble Lords may be interested to know that this summer on the Latin GCSE results, a subject which is thought to be very difficult, 48% of pupils at the Academy that took Latin GCSE got a grade 9.

So far as free schools are concerned, I would like to add that I understand that there are over 50 special and a free schools which were approved prior to October last. We desperately need more special schools in this country and I would ask the Noble Lady the Minister kindly to tell me how many of these are now planned to actually of these are now planned to actually open and how many are not, and if she can't do that today I understand she might not be able to do so, perhaps she could kindly write to me with the answer.

Considering my Noble Friend amendment about auditing local authority schools, the specialists taking over specialist school, mainly for local authorities. I have been struck in many cases, most cases, by the very prospect of financial control of schools, generally when a school is failing educationally, financially, not just because of forming roles but also because of poor financial An annual audit seems to me an absolute must in the case of local absolute must in the case of local
17:46
17:47
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Turning to group 3 which relates to the opening of new schools including new maintained schools including new maintained schools academies and free schools but not the noble Lords amendment about local elections, so I won't respond to that. I turn 1st to clause 57 which relates to how new schools are opened and which the noble Lady Baroness Barran opposes extending part of the bill. Clause 57 and is the legal presumption that new schools should be Academy schools.

It requires local authorities to invite proposals for both academies and other types of school when they think a new school should be established and gives them the option to put forward their own proposals for new schools. The current system only allows current authorities to propose new schools as a last resort or in very limited circumstances. Local authorities hold the statutory responsibility to secure sufficient school places in area and it is right that we give them greater ability to fulfil that duty effectively.

These changes will enable consideration of any offer which meets the needs of children and families. I turn to amendment 480 tabled by the noble Baroness baron which relates to the opening of projects in the free schools pipeline. I do understand the noble Ladies desire and the passion and enthusiasm of the noble Lord Lord enthusiasm of the noble Lord Lord Harris who, as others have said, has played an enormously important role in improving the quality of schools for many of the children who need it the most.

To ensure the approved free school projects in as planned. I know that trusts and local authorities commit significant time and energy to support these projects. But noble Lords will also understand the need to consider carefully the use of a limited amount of school capital and agreeing this amendment would commit the Secretary of State to opening all projects in the current pipeline regardless of whether they are still needed or represent value for money. That is the reason why the department is giving careful consideration to these proposals in relation to the need for places.

The value for money. And the extent to which they provided distinctive local offer. It would be wrong to spend funding on new schools that cannot be financially viable while existing schools urgently need that funding to improve the condition of their buildings. Turning next to amendment 481 tabled by the noble Lord Lord Agnew, this would require local authority maintained schools to have an annual external audit. I think I would just want to clarify in relation to the noble Lords contribution that the noble Lord was wrong to state that maintained schools don't have to publish salaries over £100,000 and they don't have to submit three year budget plans.

Those requirements were introduced by the last government in 2021 following a consultation put out by the noble Lord as a minister. He's had more of an impact than he realises. I do nevertheless understand the points about the noble Lord was making about the responsibility on all school leaders to ensure that public money is being spent as effectively as possible in order to maximise the amount, but the government doesn't believe it is necessary to mandate or maintain schools to have an annual external audit, maintained school accounts to form part of local authority accounts, a sample will be given as part of the authority audit process.

At any maintained school that wants a separate audit has the right to commission one. We can argue about whether or not, as the noble Lord has suggested, auditing would save money, but we are clear about how much it would cost. They can cost £5000 or more. The cost of separate audits for all maintained schools would be at least £100 million a year. Turning now to amendment tabled in the name of the noble Lord. The noble Lord didn't propose it.

I hope given the explanations that other noble Lords for feel able

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to withdraw their amendments. I accept what she says about the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I accept what she says about the proposal for being properly interrogated et cetera, but it has now been nearly a year and if she has alluded to the fact that some of the issues may be around funding, at the very least, could she commit to contacting the schools all the groups who have put forward groups who have put forward proposals to give them an update? In some cases it is the not knowing and the not hearing that is the most the not hearing that is the most frustrating for them, so perhaps you could at least do that because it could at least do that because it does seem to be a huge amount of work to do this, and there will be work to do this, and there will be parents as Billy wanted to know if schools will open so even if she cannot tell us today, perhaps we can cannot tell us today, perhaps we can commit to some further information to those that are within the to those that are within the pipeline as that would be a move forward from their perspective.

forward from their perspective.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I want the trust to have certainty for their products as soon as possible, and we will provide an update on next steps to trust local authorities in due course and I am sure that others within the department have had the reasonable points made by the Minister.
17:53
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
I am slightly surprised by the noble Baroness the Ministers response in this group. In relation to the changes proposed by clause 57, she repeated the point set out in the policy summary document about the importance of local authorities being able to meet their sufficiency duty, but she didn't give us any examples or any data to suggest that there had been instances where there had been unable to meet their sufficiency duty because of a lack of suitable applications, so if I may, I think I will repeat my request that the noble Lady writes to me and sets out exactly how often that has happened over the last five years year by year so we can get a picture of what this problem really picture of what this problem really is.

She gave the house no reflection on the capacity of local authorities to be able to deliver new free schools. No reflection on the conflict-of-interest in this policy and no real recognition of the contribution of free schools which, as we had from my noble friend, done really great work, particularly in narrowing disadvantaged gaps. And as my noble friend Lord Nash said in relation to the importance of the Latin for excellence programme, these schools have often been pioneers in raising the aspiration of children through the curriculum that they offer, and as we debated, and I quoted last week on the debate on the curriculum, this is about opening doors for children and not moving the destination closer to them but building the bridge so they can get to that destination.

And in relation to my noble friend Lord Agnew's amendment 481, I think it is good that the noble Lady has a figure on the cost. I'm sure my noble friend could negotiate that down given half a chance, but I think the real point is the one he made that, in his trust, they have been unable to unlock funding which gives three hours more a week to the children in the trust, or a year more of education, and for the government to accept that there is an invisibility and the probable financial inefficiency in local authority schools.

I think that does the children in those schools are real disservice, but with that, I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

beg leave to withdraw my amendments. The question is that clause 57

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that clause 57 status part of the bill. The contents have it. The question is contents have it. The question is that clauses 58, 59 and 60 stand part of the bell. The contents have part of the bell. The contents have it. The question is that schedule four will be the fourth schedule to four will be the fourth schedule to the bill. The contents have it. The question is that clauses 61 and 62 question is that clauses 61 and 62 stand part of the bill.

The contents have it. After clause 62, and then have it. After clause 62, and then 458, not moved. Since 458 has not been moved, I cannot call for been moved, I cannot call for hundred and 58 a since it was a hundred and 58 a since it was a substitution for 458. And then 459, Baroness Barran.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This is a very important group of amendments as it seeks to understand the government's attitude to behaviour in our schools and in behaviour in our schools and in particular how to balance the rights of children who have either been excluded or have committed acts of violence with those of the rights of other pupils in the classroom as well as how best to address bullying in schools. My amendment 459 aims to bring clarity about acts of violence or threats of violence to school staff.

People should understand that any such act will be referred to the police. We have made it clear that this is not intended to criminalise children we just believe it would children we just believe it would help reset expectations regarding behaviour and give children services important information about those pupils, and I do recognise of course that pupils, that schools know their pupils very well and are able to exercise their professional judgement, but even with that, we are concerned that there might be pressure on the government to move to a position such as we've seen in Scotland to reduce the use of exclusions and suspensions.

Noble Lords will be aware of the disastrous impact of the Scottish government's policies in this area which have led to violent assaults on teachers by pupils. More recently, the Mayor of London has launched an inclusion charter to reduce suspensions and at an event last week, the Mayor of Greater Manchester suggested that he would like to see all pupil referral units abolished. Head Teachers need and deserve reassurance that they will be backed to exclude or suspend when necessary and the presumption will always be that the rate of these strategies should not be considered to be too high unless there is good reason to think otherwise.

The correct rate of exclusion is when necessary. It is not as low as we can make it, and my amendment 502 YY A6 to clarify this. We are really concerned about the impact of councils pursuing zero exclusion policies either directly or indirectly by asking schools to sign up to reduction charters or similar. Such policies create an implicit expectation that Head Teachers should not exclude which would be frankly disastrous for the pupils and staff who have to face the Similar to intensive-care or senior hospitals where the students presenting the most challenge receive the high-intensity support receive the high-intensity support and the boundaries that they so gladly need.

To reduce these vital institutions would condemn schools to enormous violence and chaos and damage the very children that they no longer access them. Experts in this field tell me that such naivete of strategy indicates the unfamiliarity of those that they have on the challenges of working with these children. Rather we need to learn from the best people referral units and alternative provision schools to ensure that pupils do attend and when they are there they get a full day of education because they need that structure and support perhaps more than the average child.

Concerns about the shift with senior leaders in the Labour Party such as the two I have cited earlier explain why we put down amendments 502 while the end 502 down amendments 502 while the end 502YW. Which would make the presumption that pupils that have committed serious misbehaviour including violence and sexual assault and those that have been permanently excluded twice from mainstream schools would not be reinstated in the mainstream school. Mainstream schools can and do movement and is but they cannot perform miracles.

Children whose needs exceed mainstream capacity, mainstream budgets, and mainstream systems cannot thrive in a mainstream environment. Any more than a surgical patient can obtain the treatment they need in a GP surgery. Nonmainstream environments are vital support mechanisms to help children to turn their lives around in the specialist setting. It is not a failure of mainstream that these children are approved in the AP environment any more than it is a failure on our position to cure cataracts.

It is a positive movement, not a negative one, and again we see the innocent but dangerous unfamiliarity with the reality of these children's lives in the woods of those that seek to make mainstream every child regardless of how extreme their behaviours are. Balancing the rights of those small number of pupils who threaten the safety of the classroom and that much larger group that need a calm environment to focus on learning is not easy. We do need to improve and expand the quality and quantity of alternative provision, but we also need to uphold the rights of the majority and that is what these amendments in to do.

Building a whole school systems above a preferential treatment and the minority of violent and chaotic children and the expense of the vast majority of children who are also potentially vulnerable, who also deserve dignity, safety, and a calm learning environment is an insult for the governance and ironically helps that child. Every child matters which means that every child matters equally. Amendments 502 while and 502 YY would require the Secretary of State to publish an annual report on the impact of behaviour on both teacher recruitment and pupil attainment.

We are very keen to see the annual behaviour survey being continued. The former minister in The Other Place was not clear in committee without not this would be the case, so I would be grateful if the noble Baroness the Minister could confirm that it will be continued today. We know from a range of different poles including teacher tap that behaviour is one of the biggest factors driving teachers out of the profession. For pupils it is crucial with the last behaviour survey showing that on average 1/4 of learning time is lost to poor behaviour.

That is the equivalent to 44 days I get. It is crucial as real visibility on this issue. As the founder of step lab wrote, just communicating expectations is rarely sufficient. Behaviour must be taught, not just told. And helping students achieve behaviour for success is not just good for safety and learning. It is vital for equity also. My Noble Friend is Lord Nash, Lord Bailey, will also speak to our amendment 502 YF stop we know that there is rightly great caution about permanently excluding a pupil, so before that if a child that was permanently excluded automatically qualifies in my language to be a child in need, then it would offer some automatic protection and support to that child.

The fact that a pupil cannot study effectively in a mainstream school does not mean they are not worthy of support. Quite the reverse. As I have already said, we need to see the best alternative provision pupil referral units developed further, but this amendment would provide those children with the timely support to ensure the services and other local services. Although there is some brilliant alternative provision does not typically offer the full school day and these are just the pupils that are most at risk of abuse and exploitation were so our amendment would seek to give the local

**** Possible New Speaker ****

authority ability to seek these pupils. I beg to move. And proposed article 32 insert

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the new clause as printed on the Marshall list. I rise to Echo the Noble Lady Baroness Barran's words, Head Teachers need and deserve
18:06
Lord Hampton Portrait Lord Hampton (Crossbench)
-
-
reassurance that they could be backed to exclude or suspend where necessary. I would also like to pass on the experience of a Head Teacher who recently told me that he had to permanently exclude to pupils that had set school on fire. If they have successfully moved back. I now have the rather bizarre situation of speaking against an amendment that I put my name to. Number 459. As a teacher I thought this amendment was eminently sensible, given the fact that the police would still be able to decide whether or not to act.

But I found out it is more complicated than that. The executive principal of the trust says and I quote I of the trust says and I quote I agree that on the face of it this appears eminently sensible as one would think it is vital to ensure that all services are alerted to ensure that the perpetrator and victim are offered necessary support. Given that the police services in the safeguarding laws alongside the council and healthcare then police should be alerted and equally responsible for the welfare and safeguarding of children.

An act of violence against an adult in the school environment is, in itself, a safeguarding issue. However, I am dismayed that once again no duty is placed on them to respond or act. So, in the absence of a collegiate approach, I worry this will become just another duty free teaching officials with no duty posed on those services. I must emphasise this should not become yet another safeguarding duty placed on the shoulders of schools with schools being potentially penalised if an act is not reported.

Reporting to the police is very likely to erode the trust between child's at home and school. This is only with risking if there is a definite response and support from the police for the child and family. My question is why the professional judgement of educators is deemed to be less worthy in the professional judgement of the police. I.e. Educators have a statutory duty to report and must always support but social care and the police have no statutory duty to support when a report is made.

Victor Hughes, Chief Executive of the trust gives a clear, and I quote, this bill is in danger of treating schools as if they are full of idiots, without the ability to make sensible decisions. Schools as a second-class citizen in the safeguarding arena spend more time with children in the other safeguarding partners combined. There the only service that is in loco parentis 190 days a year from the age of four to 18. Like any good parent we need to make judgements about what is in the best interests of children.

Balanced against society, and the other members of our family, students, and staff. I would ask that we are afforded that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

right. I support Lord Storey's amendment 501 and will speak to amendment 464 in my name and those of the Right Reverend Pollard. The Noble Lord born of Aberystwyth and the noble
18:10
18:12
Lord Nash Portrait Lord Nash (Conservative)
-
-
I rise to speak to amendment 58 rise to speak to amendment 582F in my name in the name of my Noble my name in the name of my Noble Friends Lady Barran to require an assessment when a child is permanently excluded. The reason for this is that in my experience there is a risk that without an adequate handover or adequate liaison between the school and the society there is a risk that the pupil disappears into a blackhole on the thankfully a few I have sat on we really do not like excluding pupils I have always hated that not just in its own right but because they just disappear from view.

In my view, schools should continue to have some involvement, if not responsibility to ensure that they receive adequate provision. As things stand, they have no say in where children go. Often because the local authority has an arrangement or a contract with one or two AP provider such that there are no other options. And, of course, in some areas, the providers have the capacity. And as I have said that is where we get such a provision. I would like to see schools with a greater involvement in this and I understand the key that there is a model were about a dozen schools, secondary schools, cooperate well on this and this could perhaps be a model for the future.

I also support amendments in the name of the baroness Aron in this group, poor behaviour by a few students has a dramatic effect on the school. The teachers spend a disproportionate amount of time dealing with if you pupils that exhibit very poor behaviour and are increasingly acting as social workers. We must protect the other pupils in the school and allowed the teachers. There comes a time when the disruption this causes to other pupils and teachers means it is necessary to exclude certain pupils.
18:14
Lord Bishop of Chelmsford Portrait The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford (Bishops)
-
-
I rise to speak in support of amendment number 464. Knowing that had mirrored honourable friend that Bishop of Lincoln been in his place he would very much have contributed to the debate. If passed, this amendment will introduce a duty on schools to record and report any incidents of racism or faith-based bullying on school premises. It would also help boards of education in collating and monitoring such cases and better assisting those church schools that might benefit from support.

In preparing for this speech, I spoke to our own director in Chelmsford classes whose team oversees 139 church schools. She told me that this proposed amendment had the potential to help the Board of Education strengthen anti- bullying and inclusive practices in Every child deserves to feel safe but racist in faith-based bullying as a significant driver hind school exclusions. A report published by the difference and the IPPR revealed that black Caribbean children are 1 1/2 times more likely than the national population to find themselves permanently excluded from schools.

Irish traveller children are three times more likely and Romani or gypsy and Roma children are four times more likely. Last November, the traveller movement published its Fort not taught report which traced examples of coercive exclusions from school settings. The organisation defines institutionally coerced exclusion as a situation in which a school setting either through action or inaction becomes a toxic environment with conditions that make it untenable or unsafe for a child to remain enrolled. To name one example, the traveller movement's research has revealed that tragically, 67% of young gypsies and travellers in London have experienced bullying from teachers that they felt was directly linked to their ethnicity.

And in relation to that, I should say that my right Rev friend the Bishop of Lincoln will host the launch of the traveller movement's follow-up publication on Thursday, 23 September in your Lordships house. Tell Mama or measuring anti Muslim attacks as an independent and confidential support service to record incidents of Islamophobia in the UK. Between 2023 and 2024, there was a 43% increase in the number of reported hate crimes targeting Muslims. 10% of these incidents occurred in a place of education.

To make matters worse, parents often feel that their concerns have ignored due to a lack of formal mechanisms for accountability. Maintaining a clear record of incidents is the first step towards building trust and fostering more collaborative partnerships between parents, schools, and local authorities. However, this amendment takes one step further. The collective safety and well-being of all pupils, educational environments must be prepared to take concrete action to address and crucially prevent racism. By requiring schools to record actions taken in response when incidents do occur, we should ensure that actively antiracist practised in our school is the expectation not the exception.

In 2021, the Archbishop's antiracism task force published from lament to action which set out recommendations to eradicate racism in the Church of England. Education surfaced as a priority area for action with commitments to ensure racial justice features as a core element of curriculum, staff training and school assemblies. There is of course much more work to be done but this would enable us to make long overdue progress. overdue progress.
18:19
18:21
Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)
-
-
Arise in relation to amendment 502 EE which is in my name, but before I do, can I say that I entirely agree with what was said by Lord Addington. In the numerous safeguarding and similar cases where I have been involved as a lawyer, it is the failure to share information that causes a huge amount of damage and often leads to that cycle, the revolving door of children going in and out of school that leaves many of them to go into custody for crime when they are not very old.

I turned to my amendment 502 EE, and that isn't on complicated attempts to provide consistent standards and process in the way in which individual schools focus on bullying. I'm grateful to the anti- bullying alliance for providing me with information on this subject. The truth of the matter is that huge numbers of children are bullied, and we see it every day. A few days ago, I was on a bus in North London at the time when children are just going home from school.

And there were three noisy normal-looking 11 or 12-year-olds on the bus laughing and pointing through the window at something, and I realise that a pointing at another boy who was actually the largest of the group who was on the pavement and I deduced that they had tripped that boy into getting off the bus at the wrong bus stop and then had got back on themselves and off the bus went on a laughing at the disconsolate fourth boy as the bus passed him by on the pavement.

It was a small example of bullying but what I saw was evidence possibly at least of a much larger bullying issue relating to that fourth child. It is a heartbreaking reality that only one in five children and young people report being bullied each year, and that figure comes from the office of National statistics. It is a perverse issue which not only disrupts their childhoods, the mental-health, and their education, but its repercussions can persist well into adulthood and many of us know people who have been affected by bullying, particularly at school which they suffer from at a very young age.

There is plenty of evidence that children who are bullied are significantly more likely to suffer from mental health issues. I used to be the chair of the mental health charity called and action and now called we are with you which has to deal with many, many people who, among them multiple and often complex issues have suffered from bullying when they are young. Either at school or possibly in the home. And children who are bullied often miss school. They have a very poor sense of belonging and achieve poorer academic results.

Parents learned that their children are being bullied but they don't know how to deal with it because they are not given any real guidance in their schools as to how to approach the school or as to what the school will do if their child is bullied. The effects of bullying are even more pronounced among children with special educational needs about whom we should be talking soon in another group. Children in poverty, young carers, care experience young people and other at-risk groups, and it really doesn't have to be this way.

My suggestion is that something like my very straightforward amendment 502 EE would at least ensure that schools had a consistent approach to those issues. So, what I respectfully suggest the Minister is that in pursuant of their duties, Head Teachers are relevant schools in England should appoint a member of staff who is simply the schools anti-bullying lead, just as they have leads in the six form and on individual subject heads. The primary role of the anti-bullying league should be to develop the schools individual anti-bullying strategy, and that anti-bullying strategy should include details of the steps being taken by the school to prevent bullying in all its forms among pupils, including of course those with protected characteristics.

There should be a standard way of recording incidences of bullying just as there are standard and required ways of recording incidences of injury at school. And there should be staff training available for all staff related to bullying. I would submit my Lords that this amendment is just common sense which would make a significant contribution to the way in which bullying is dealt with at

**** Possible New Speaker ****

school to the advantage of children. I want to support my noble

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I want to support my noble friends amendments but I want to friends amendments but I want to follow on from what the noble prelate said about racism. Racism
18:26
Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Conservative)
-
-
prelate said about racism. Racism has been rife in schools from as far back as I can remember. But at that time, social media wasn't there to inflame it further. And over recent years, it has not just become racism on colour but also about religion and the noble prelate mentioned Islamophobia but if I can tell you that most underreported acts of religion, bullying against faith is not always Islamophobia. People from my community enjoy it quietly, and where do they report it when often as not it is the most misunderstood way of bullying.

I've had parents come to me and say that children have told them that they will burn in hell, that if they don't change their faith, this will happen. We have got to find solutions that involve not just the teachers because the teachers have got more than enough to do already. We need to make sure first of all what we say and do is actually reasonable but secondly, families cannot be abdicated from their duties of what happens in and out of school.

They need to be part of the solution because often as not, unfortunately, we have a lot of dysfunctional families, not by choice, but just often by the economics of everything. And we have to find ways that every child is able to go to school knowing that they are going to be learning like every other child and not fearful of going. I grew up in a fearful atmosphere. But fearful atmosphere is back, and it is back even more now than ever before and amplified by social media.

So, to my noble friends amendments, yes, of course the police do have a duty and so do local authorities. They need to be the support mechanisms, not be standing on the sidelines waiting to be offering help. They should be intrinsic in the plans of making sure we can respond to the needs of children that come with problems, not of their making mostly but of their surroundings and their environment but we shouldn't make excuses. We should not make excuses that are acceptable and that everything should be on the teachers.

I don't think it is fair. I also don't think they are well enough equipped, and I also think that, as a child who went through that miserable time at school, knowing what bullying is like and dreading to go into school in case you are going to be beaten up by the next skinhead around the corner, I didn't become a bully. I became resilient and we've got to make sure that resilience is part of the teaching of our children.
18:30
Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
-
-
I rise to raise some reservations that I have had about amendments 501 and 502 EE on bullying in schools, and also, 464 on the reporting of racism and faith-based bullying. Bullying is a label that has been subject to the phenomena of concept creep. Bullying has now expanded enormously and is an elastic phrase that can mean a wide-ranging behaviours which can be described as bullying. And I fear that it is becoming a vehicle to encourage people to lack resilience, a point that's just been raised about the Pupils are told, " Three anti- bullying initiatives that words hurt, damage and wears them can become interchangeable with violence.

That name-calling is on par with physical intimidation. And that inevitably can lead the young to believe that actually, speech is violence. Something which I think all of us can acknowledge is a problem that we have at the moment when the people who say speech is violence then feel able to use violence in order to deal with speech they dislike. A very current issue. It's also the case in relation to those that harm can be subjectively defined as psychological, not physical harm.

And we know that many of the problems that we have one for example university campuses is when students arriving from school feel that it's appropriate to know platform speakers who, whose views they consider to be psychological harmful and interchangeable with violence. When words and speech is the equivalence to physical force, I think it does create some problems, so we should at least consider that. And it's also the case that the accusation of bullying can be weaponised.

And it regularly is by the young, pointing their fingers at each other bullying. So I just have some caution about an even more institutionalisation of anti- bullying initiatives into schools. I think we should at least look at this with a bit more critical thinking. Because I think we have to look at the detail of the schemes that are being put forward. Not all of them are the same or are of the same quality, just because they say the words anti-bullying on them, we shouldn't just give them the nod, and we should think about it.

Just one thing I remember, when a young family member from my own experience was hysterically crying because she was being so badly bullied at school, and you can imagine we were all terrified, had visions of her having her head kicked in, and it was awful, and she wouldn't tell us what it was. We eventually found that she was being bullied, and she wasn't worried, and she brought back the school's anti-bullying policy, which had the words exclusion from friendship group, a very serious form of bullying, and she said you see you are wrong, I am right and so on so forth.

By the way she made up with her friends. On amendment 464 on the recording, reporting of racist faith-based bullying in schools, I do worry about the real danger of treating young children as would-be racists, and I think we have to think very carefully about this. I thought the noble Baroness Baroness Verma's contribution was incredibly interesting, and the very least showed how complicated this is, not just a straightforward thing again just to say we have to fight racism in school, we have to report antiracist... Racist incidents et cetera is not so straightforward as you'd think.

Young children in particular are unencumbered by the adult fixations on brace, and I do worry about the danger of mislabelling pupils and so on. There was an interesting report on film and book in fact written by the researcher Adrian Hart on this very topic a few years ago, and one of the interesting things that Adrian Hart noted was a reporting regime can create a self affirming prophecy. With a growing list of incidents being written down as evidence of racism.

And one of the reasons that happened was the schools were getting in trouble they hadn't got enough incidents of racism written down, and therefore they were ignoring racism and they were literally going around hunting the racism to add to the list to prove how diligent they were being. I do want an active course that children can behave cruelly, often they fall out a lot, do call each other's names. I'm not trying to say it's all an enjoyable time. But I think that there is a danger of sometimes seeing the crass language that children use and so on as racist, and I do think the fact that the teachers who recently reported a child wearing a Union Jack dress to school had recently been on a racial literacy course is an indication of the fact that maybe things aren't all so well.

In that sense antiracism education is itself contentious. Some schools, increasing number of schools in fact to deploy antiracist strategies, and they have adopted uncritically for example critical race theory. They argue that a colourblind approach, are you not focusing on skin colour is itself racist. They parrot the line that there is white privilege. And for many young white children, that can be guilt inducing. In other words, it's a dangerously politicised area, and we should at least consider that. I just want to finish off by saying I broadly support the group of amendments from the noble Baroness Baroness Barran who importantly suggest reports on the impact of behaviour on young children, behaviour of schoolchildren and on teacher recruitment and the impact of such behaviour on educational outcomes behaviour on educational outcomes because I said behaviour is a hugely challenging issue schools, and at present I think it's not given much attention, so I hope we can tackle that.

But one problem that I do think we face as a kind of cultural salt -- assault on discipline per se. Those people who advocate discipline in schools can be described as authoritarian, enjoying meeting our cruel punishments on pupils, and in fact can be accused of bullying children, the very term is used regularly by those who argue for discipline in schools. And even as I say the word discipline, I can feel a kind of phrasal of people thinking I mean get out the stick of anything.

I simply mean adult authority. And the truth is that adult authority per se is under attack in many ways. Which is why I think it's important that we have amendment 502 that we have amendment 502YV on the presumption against the reinstatement of children engaging in extremely serious behaviour. And 152YYA on the right to exclude. Because I actually think that teachers need to have those tools in their educational toolbox. I think it's only fair on pupils that they know that there are lines that they can't cross.

I think the adult authority in schools is in crisis, and we should do everything we can to bolster it, not undermine it.
18:38
Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
-
-
I speak to amendment 502N in my name which of the clause 62 would insert a new clause, which raises the issue of seclusion in education, particularly in the form of isolation rooms. They have serious implications for emotional and psychological well-being of children, especially disabled children and young people and those with special educational. This is a preppy amendment and would introduce a statutory definition of seclusion. It would empower the sector of state to regulate its use through a consultation and if regulations are made, requires minimum protections banning seclusion as discipline, notifying parents, recording incidents, and ensuring internal safeguarding oversight.

The experience of seclusion impacts too many children to date, children with speech-language communication needs. Communication may not be recognised or supported in that moment. Children with ADHD who made -- may find it hard to regulate strong emotions without timely support. And yet instead of being supported they are removed, placed alone and not free to leave and to labels such as isolation, calm, breakout room. Nurture space or any other number of euphemisms. What they experience it euphemisms. What they experience it seclusion.

It happens in a locked room, space with a closed or an area where the child is to be not permitted to leave. The impact is the same, loss of connection and potential safety. Disabled children and those with special educational Sardis proportionally affected. Some children are removed daily and there is no guarantee parents will be told. These experiences can be isolating, traumatic and deeply damaging to a child's sense of safety and belonging. Other sectors such as healthcare and secure settings already regulate seclusion and deprivation of liberty and education should not be an exception.

The Department for education has acknowledged the issue and its 2025 guidance, and this alone does not close a legal loophole. This clause invites us to act thoughtfully and proportionately to close a legal gap that has persisted for far too long. It's not a radical proposal first of its proportionate enabling amendment grounded in evidence, shaped by lifting spirits and guided by the principle that no child should be left unsupported or invisible in the name of behaviour management. Seclusion happens in our schools, even if we don't call it that.

This clause doesn't ban it but it gives us the tools to see it, define it and scrutinise it. At the very least we should agree that when a child is confined and not free to leave, we confined and not free to leave, we ought to know and we ought to care.
18:40
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
-
-
I'm speaking in support of amendment 502YF proposed by Noble Friend Lord Nash and the amendments 52YV to 502 and the amendments 52YV to 502YYA proposed by Noble Friend Baroness Barran. It's long been a lot of discomfort about permanent exclusions. No one likes the idea that there are children who cannot thrive in mainstream schools so you are too likely to harm others to be allowed to attend them. Last year's Youth Justice Agency's show 12,000 convictions of children for offences of violence, 3,000 for knife - related offences, and 1404 sexual of.

Serious misconduct doesn't begin only once children have left school. There's also a lot of hope that keeping children in mainstream keeping children in mainstream schools and what they would do were later overtly to criminality, but in fact excluded children more likely to have come into contact with youth just a services before they are excluded rather than after. And because we've been remarkably successful in reducing the number of children in custody, there are more children with very serious behaviour problems in the school system you might once not have been there.

And in fact what sort of state is the vast majority of schools work extremely hard to keep children in mainstream schools. Relatively few exclusions are unjustified. Many parents especially those with children's hand by other children believe there is too much rather than too little pressure not to exclude. In the vast majority of exclusions are the culmination of a long period in which a school does all that it knows how to do to support a child and help them progress academically and socially.

As a result I believe we have a problem of a different nature. Many teachers will tell you that it's often possible to spot the children who are most likely to fall out of school as earliest reception year. Or even earlier. But the pressure is always to keep them in mainstream schools, even when that school could do little more than have teaching assistants until it becomes manifestly unhelpful for the child and the parent succeeds in obtaining an EHCP and a special school place.

So we don't start contingency planning for these children as early as we should. And code. Which contributes to their not being enough specialist provision. And even at the point of permanent exclusion, our laws and processes are focused on the legitimacy of the exclusion and the process that's been followed. What isn't part of any of these processes is a pragmatic assessment of what kind of education to adulthood will give the excluded child the best chance in life.

By which I mean reaching adulthood with the basic skills in place, functioning within social norms, willing and capable of holding down a job, and in the longer term capable of sustaining a marriage or stable relationship. When your friend Lord Nash is amendment will help concentrate minds on how best to do what in the power of the state to do to help excluded children the best possible excluded children the best possible future. And further, my Noble Friend amendments in this group would also help to direct attention appropriately.

They reflect a pragmatic recognition of the circumstances in which the harm to other children from reinstating a child is likely to exceed the benefit of an excluded child of reinstatement. For example it's well known that sexual offending tends to be a persistent pattern of behaviour, and are referred to one such case in an earlier group. And I will add the Noble Lord stories billing survey might be useful in showing how much fear and unhappiness can be induced in many other children by a very small number of their peers.

Because for many years there has been a strong presumption that children should be reintegrating in mainstream schools as soon as possible after exclusion. And policy and processes have been designed on this basis. But the risk data that shows that pupils who have been permanently excluded and return to a mainstream school very rarely stay in mainstream to age 16. Nearly all will be moved into alternative provision subsequently with or without another permanent exclusion or dropout entirely. It would be useful to know what proportion of managed moves are effective in the long run and which kinds of children and problems are most likely to be effectively dealt with in this way.

My Noble Friend Baroness Barran's amendments relating to a presumption against reinstatement for certain children dovetails with my Noble Friend Lord Nash is amendment to steer schools and local authorities towards constructive and realistic planning for the children but the greatest difficulties in their I'd like to express concerns from Baroness Fox looking at more measures that can be weaponised or potentially cause more division in schools and society. When young children fight, labelling it as racially may not help those children get along and may encourage factions get along and may encourage factions within class.

Promoting and focusing on what we have in common and should value together is at least as important and probably rather more important than labelling and division if we are to achieve the social cohesion we aspire to. social cohesion we aspire to.
18:46
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
I have found this debate very thought-provoking. I always want to listen to what Baroness Fox has to say. She always challenges my own thoughts. You know the saying sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words can never harm me, but words do harm and can harm tremendously. do harm and can harm tremendously. They can almost destroy a pupil and their resilience and their well- being. I think about a little girl called Millie who was eight years old and was a very good footballer.

And her grandad took her to play football every Saturday morning on the fields and because she was so good the other good girls became jealous of her and they contrived amongst themselves to never pass the ball to Millie. Millie could not understand this. She was wanting to take part in the game and all together they bullied her by not passing the ball to her. She went to the parent who organised the football, who was the referee and one of the girls was part of the group telling them to not pass the ball to Millie.

You are a footballer. Take it. She went home and completely was destroyed and chose not to play football again. I tell that tale because I think we forget the bully and the bully needs help and support as much as the person bullied and we often don't do person bullied and we often don't do that. I think in school policies on anti-bullying and I also wanted to say to the Minister that when we talked about bullying briefly on another group, you mentioned schools have behavioural policy and they should have separate anti-bullying policies as well because not every school has to have those if I'm not correct.

This amendment simply says that we should know where we are. I'm perhaps going to criticise myself a bit. All of these amendments are seeking more information. More information rightly on racist incidents, more information on bullying, and who collect the information? The school. The school has to collect it, the teacher. When we talk about workload pressure on teachers, let's be aware all of the time we are creating more workload pressures for teachers themselves. These things are important and should be collected and we should know on bullying about it and know about the incidents.

We know how we can react and where we should go. Lord Addington made a really important point that was picked up by Lord Carlile that was when we collect information we might be good at collecting information, but we are not good at sharing information. It is no good if we do not share it with other people or not share it with other people or agencies. I will give the information in terms of why we want to do this, but Lord Carlile spelt out the information as we were supplied by the anti-bullying alliance.

Those figures are quite shocking, really. The number of children in our education system who children in our education system who are bullied. Bullying comes in all types of events. I mention football, but I could have mention someone being pinched everyday. I could mention a host of things and I can think of people in my own friends who now are in their 60s and 70s and were affected as a young person by bullying and it formed how they have to behave and react to things.

We need to address the issue, but only if we notice how serious it is. Despite workload pressures for teachers, I hope the Minister might agree that this is an important route to go on. I would like to briefly mention as time marches on the Bishop of Gloucester and the amendment and I think it is really important that we don't ask teachers and teachers and they don't know how and teachers and they don't know how many children are aware of parents or parent in prison.

We think it is about 31,000. The number of children with a parent in prison according to figures is nearly 193,000. That is something we must address and I don't want to go into the details but I very much support the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

amendment. I think we have had a good,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think we have had a good, wide-ranging debate in this group which concerns how schools deal with which concerns how schools deal with acts of violence against their staff, people behaviour management staff, people behaviour management and tackling bullying in schools including incidents that are racist or faith-based. Violence and bullying in schools are never bullying in schools are never acceptable. No teacher should feel unsafe or face violence or abuse in unsafe or face violence or abuse in the workplace and the environment should allow them to work in safe and calm classrooms.

Schools must have a behaviour policy to regulate the conduct of pupils, help ensure teachers and pupils are protected teachers and pupils are protected from disruption and most importantly have a safe school environment in have a safe school environment in which to work and learn. When misbehaviour occurs, schools can use misbehaviour occurs, schools can use sanctions as a measure to improve behaviour and in the most serious behaviour and in the most serious cases exclusion may be necessary to ensure all pupils are protected from disruption and can benefit from the opportunities provided by education.

Just to provide some assurance to Baroness Barran, we believe Pupil Referral Unit's have an important role to play in this. Just to reiterate the importance with which the government takes this, we have recently announced the launch of new rise attendance and behaviour hubs focus on supporting senior leaders to develop safe, supportive school cultures with high expectation for attendance and behaviour. It will include using data to identify and address areas of concern and we have now appointed the first 21 schools in this program.

Turning to speak to amendment 459 in the name of Baroness Barran which requires schools to report acts of violence against staff to the police. Can I be completely clear as I have already said all forms of violence against school staff must be taken seriously and it is never acceptable for anyone to be harassed, intimidated or attacked. The primary duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of all employees rests with the employer. They are responsible for doing what is reasonably practical to ensure the health, safety and welfare of all employees and make them aware of any matters that could detract from that.

Where violence is involved, schools must take immediate, schools must take immediate, appropriate action and should an incident constitute a criminal offence it would be for the school employer to consider involving the police. Having followed the advice in the advice for schools and colleges by the National Police Chiefs Council written in partnership with the department and the Home Office, given those provisions and that guidance, we fear this amendment would be likely to impose additional burdens on schools without necessarily strengthening protections for staff.

Turning to amendment 464 in the name of Baroness Whitaker, which places a duty on local authorities to require schools to record and report racist incidents of faith-based bullying and the action taken. I wholly support the views of noble Lords who identified how reprehensible these incidents would be and how important it is within the school action is taken to identify and also educate students about the significance of that particular element of bullying. Under the Equality Act 2010, every school in England has an existing legal obligation to not discriminate unlawfully on the grounds of a protected characteristic.

We have confidence in the seriousness with which Head Teacher's take any incident that preach this requirement as these would. Further reporting requirements for schools would risk creating a new burden and risk unintended consequences as some noble Lords have touched on. Discouraging children and staff from disclosing to school leaders due to privacy concerns and increasing the threshold of which schools may identify and respond to incidents duty perceived risk of reputational damage, we want children to be as open as possible within the school environment so Head Teacher sent teachers can determine the appropriate action.

Now turning to amendment 501 and 502 b which looked to aim to tackle bullying in schools and recognise the profound impact it can have on children's lives amendment 501 in the name of Lord Storey seeks to introduce a duty on the department to collect and publish national data relating to pupil experience of bullying in schools. The department already monitors young people's perceptions of bullying through the annual national behaviour survey report and I can confirm for the noble Lady Baroness Barran that survey will be continuing and that survey report enables us to develop our understanding of bullying prevalence and trends.

Amendment 502 e in the name of Lord Carlile 62 point and anti-bullying lead in school to develop an anti-bullying strategy will stop in my introduction to this group I refer to the legal requirement for schools to have a requirement for schools to have a behaviour policy and in response to the specific question raised by Lord Storey, the law is clear that a schools policy should include measures to prevent bullying and schools are held to account by Ofsted and the independent schools inspectorate on that.

School leaders are and should be free to tailor their approach and this can include deploying a lead for anti-bullying. Mandating how schools meet obligation to prevent bullying particularly in terms of staffing, I think does not recognise the need for flexibility in schools to ensure approach can be made to meet the needs of different settings and cohorts of pupils. This does not suggest we do not take this issue enormously importantly and that is why the department for education is launching a procurement for an expert, evidence led review into best practice on preventing and tackling bullying.

The learning from that best practice review will inform the support to be given the long-term by the new attendance and behaviour hubs that I have already mentioned. This approach has been informed by recent engagement with a range of stakeholders including teachers, parents, academics, charities, and young people to understand more about the issues around bullying. Turning to around bullying. Turning to amendment 502 n this is a very important topic and is right the noble lady Baroness Grey-Thompson raises it.

The department recognises the misuse of seclusion in schools can have a significant, long lasting effect on the people, staff members and parents involved and we are committed to minimising its use in schools. Earlier this year we held a 12 week consultation on the draft use of reasonable force and other restrictive interventions guidance. We have listened to the views of the sector and taken the decision to pursue secondary legislation that mandates the recording and reporting of the use of seclusion in schools This important work is orally under way.

This is a significant positive step forward for pupils and families and will support schools to have consistent, transparent policies on the use of reasonable force and restrictive interventions which aim to safeguard everybody within the school community. Turning now to speak to amendments 502YV, 52 Turning now to speak to amendments Turning now to speak to amendments 502YV, 52YW, by the 2YX for, YX and Y that a -- the name of noble Baroness Baroness Barran. Through a series of new statutory duties and presumptions, and can I be clear here as well, every pupil deserves to learn in a safe, calm classroom.

And we will always support our hard-working and dedicated teachers to make this happen. The statutory suspension and permanent exclusion guidance is clear the head teachers can use exclusion as a disciplinary measure, to maintain behaviour and a safe environment for pupils. In the most serious cases, permanent exclusion may be necessary to help take pupils from disruption and to restore a safe environment. All decisions to suspend optimally exclude a pupil must be lawful, reasonable and fair but within these requirements schools need to be able to set and enforce behaviour policies that reflect their ethos and the specific challenges that they face.

The department therefore is clear that head teachers should use their professional judgement when implementing a behaviour policy where both staff and pupils can work in safety and are respected. We also trust head teachers to use their professional judgement based on individual circumstances of the case when considering whether to use exclusion for people and we will protect their right to do that. In all cases we expect school leaders to consider early intervention strategies and the use of multiagency assessments to address the underlying causes behind a pupils disruptive behaviour before issuing an exclusion.

Given all the statutory duties and responsibilities in place, we do believe that this amendment would be likely to impose additional burdens on schools and risks limited flexibility in complex cases and can disproportionately affect vulnerable pupils. Finally, turning to amendment 52YF, table the Noble Lord Lord Nash, which proposes that local authorities assess the needs of children who are permanently excluded from school, section 17 of the Children Act 1989 already places a general duty on local authorities to safeguard and promote the welfare of Children In Need.

Naming specific groups would risk narrowing the cohort of children and limiting local flexibility in providing support. Statutory guidance working together to safeguard children makes clear that local authorities and partners should identify emerging problems and unmet needs, including the children facing multiple suspensions or permanent exclusion. Our reforms to family help and multiagency child protection supported by over £500 million this year that we have talked about earlier on in this bill will embed people with education experience within multiagency teams, and we are also introducing a duty in all safeguarding partners to ensure the education and childcare settings are properly represented at strategic and operational levels.

I hope, following this wide-ranging and important debate, Noble Lords will feel reassured that the government has in place positive measures to address the range of serious important issues highlighted by this group of amendments, and to recognise how important it is that our teachers can carry out their jobs safely, and that our children can benefit from safe and calm classrooms in which to learn. And for those reasons outlined, I would urge Noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would like to start by thanking the noble Baroness the mister. I felt much happier listening to that
19:06
19:08
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
Hampton said, the head teachers know the government has got there back in terms of managing the very difficult situations that they do with such dedication day in day out. And so dedication day in day out. And so the noble Lady's comments about the importance of safe and calm importance of safe and calm classrooms, the focus on the guidance that already exist in relation to suspensions and exclusions and the noble Ladies exclusions and the noble Ladies reassurance in terms of the discretion that Head Teachers have discretion that Head Teachers have in terms of behaviour and permanent in terms of behaviour and permanent exclusions on occasions when those are necessary.

And that the government protects the rights of government protects the rights of Head Teachers too. I think that's very important for them to hear, and very important for them to hear, and I'm grateful to the noble Lady for I'm grateful to the noble Lady for making that very clear. I think I'm sure everyone in this House would sure everyone in this House would echo her sentiment in terms of early intervention strategies, and that was obviously something picked up by was obviously something picked up by my Noble Friend Baroness's Spielman.

And I want very much to the contrast she drew between the current focus on following process versus the opportunity to think about a plan for the future for each child who sadly finds himself in that position. In terms of amendment 502YF, in the name of the Noble Lord Lord Nash and myself, I think what I heard the noble Lady the Minister say was that those children already qualify under section 17 as Children In Need if one reads section 17, and I would absolutely agree with her.

I wonder if it's helpful if where that's not happening in practice, perhaps we bring those examples to the Department for them to consider because clearly that is both the letter and this period of the law. And we want to see that happening all of us in practice. I will skate over my minor fallout with my Noble Friend as I hope I can call him Lord Hampton. Things have been going so well and a full life at 7 o'clock on day 11 seems unfortunate, but there we go.

Hopefully we can recover before day 12 is out. Just briefly, on the amendments regarding bullying in schools raised quite rightly by the Noble Lord Lord Carlile and the Noble Lord Lord Storey, of course I share very much their concern about the impact of bullying, but I would argue that this is all about having strong school culture where bullying and other forms of poor behaviour are not accepted, and I would worry that if you make an individual person responsible for it, rather than it being something that every member of staff polls, that it might not work as effectively as Noble Lords would wish.

In terms of information and data, on bullying, I was relieved to hear the behaviour survey will continue to be published. I'm hoping that means the same questions as we've had in previous years to allow for comp ability. The nobility might want to put that as a PS on one of the many letters she's going to write me. But it does give details, detailed information, and we also know from information, and we also know from the charity parent kind from their response from parental complaints that bullying, peer behaviour, safety, safeguarding, behaviour and discipline, which kind of all our very overlapping other top areas of complaints.

So I would just like to... Sorry, before I close, I'm hoping the noble Baroness Lady Grey-Thompson is reassured by the minister's comments in relation to seclusion rooms. Of course we are seclusion rooms. Of course we are able to offer the noble lady the Minister, to accept our ban on smartphones in schools, which I say with a smile but in all seriousness, we know that this is the source of much bullying. Nowadays. And in a way that continues not just in school but also out of school, and we know, I'm not sure what the noble Lady is muttering, but if the government doesn't want to listen to me, then maybe they will listen to Esther Guy, mother of Breanna Guy who recently bravely launched a campaign against smartphones in schools, highlighting in particular the terrible bullying and impact they had on Breanna.

But with that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendments in my name. amendments in my name.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To refer to momentum to YF. I heard what she said about the general duty on the children's act, but I'm still concerned about the black hole I talked about, because black hole I talked about, because this is all part of proving liaison between schools and local authorities about how we provide for authorities about how we provide for these children. And as I will these children. And as I will reflect on that, I'm still concerned about the point. As far as my Noble about the point.

As far as my Noble Friend's point about smartphones in schools and bullying, of course bullying does happen outside of school when they still have their smartphones. It happens in social media, and that is of course why I'm so pleased to see the National so pleased to see the National education union and others pushing for a ban on, lifting the age for a ban on, lifting the age restrictions of social media up to 16, and as I say I commend them in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that endeavour. Is at your splash of that
19:13
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is at your splash of that amendment 459 be withdrawn? Amendment is by leave withdrawn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment 460, Lord Storey. I just thought we might be breaking 1/4 past. You caught me breaking 1/4 past. You caught me unaware. COVID seems a long time unaware. COVID seems a long time ago. And I remember very well the virtual meetings that we had as members. We carried on our business, but for schools it was a very challenging time. Perhaps one of the successes of that time in terms of education was the national tutoring program.

I think it cost £1 billion. Despite tutoring. So children could carry on their learning with a dedicated tutor online. And this amendment is really suggesting, not really, it is suggesting that we look at whether we want to introduce a national tutoring guarantee now. Because particularly aimed at children and young people from disadvantaged backgrounds because the gap between those, between children, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds is growing and growing. And this might be one way that we can accelerate the learning and help them to overcome that deficit that currently exists.

If you like it's the sort of rocket fuel which will ignite their educational needs. It's easy to do. It's effective as we found during COVID, and it's just asking that we look at whether that is a feasible possibility. I move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Article 62, insert the new clause on national tutoring guarantee. The on national tutoring guarantee. The words of which are on page 11 and 12 of the marshalled list. Amendment of the marshalled list. Amendment

**** Possible New Speaker ****

of the marshalled list. Amendment I rise to speak to amendment 490

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise to speak to amendment 490 in my nine and I thank Baroness Grey-Thompson for adding her name to it. Special educational needs and
19:16
Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond (Conservative)
-
-
it. Special educational needs and disability education is not working in the UK right now. This is no in the UK right now. This is no fault of the excellent SEND COs up and down the country and those who fought up and down the country and certainly not parents who fight their way through the often labyrinth EN -- bureaucratic practice and no fault of the children's of those with special educational needs and wants an inclusive educational experience to give off their talent.

Amendment 490 simply asks in probing manner for Royal commission to look at the attainment gap for those children with special educational needs disabilities. I do not mind if it is a Royal commission. The weight of the issue merits a Royal commission but were the government to undertake swiftly a task and finish group, so much the better. The attainment gap needs to be considered at all levels of the school experience through examinations from when they begin. But crucially, it is about putting a plan in place so in shortorder we no longer talk about an education attainment gap because there is no reason why there should be one just by dint of a young person having a special educational need or disability.

That is all this amendment is asking for, simple, clear, effective measurement of the current SEND educational attainment gap. It is important to measure the gap. The aim, however, the mission must be to close it. I look forward to the Minister's response.
19:18
Lord Bishop of Chelmsford Portrait The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford (Bishops)
-
-
The Bishop of Gloucester is sadly unable to be here to speak to the amendment in her name, amendment 482, this amendment which I support and has already been touched on by noble Lords in the last group would compel the Secretary of State to commission a report on the educational attainment of school-age children with a parent who is in prison, making recommendations for how the educational attainment of those children can be improved. I will not presuppose what the recommendations will be, but through their work supporting 1450 children with a parent in prison, the charity Children Heard and Seen have shown by simple, targeted, and tailored emotional support you can drastically change outcomes for children with a parent in prison.

Having a parent in prison is among the most significant adverse childhood experience, severely impacting health and well-being of children. Children with an imprisoned parents are 25% more likely to suffer from mental health issues including depression, anxiety, insomnia and eating disorders. Negative school experiences such as bullying, persistent truancy and academic underachievement are also common amongst this group. It is estimated there are almost 200,000 children with a parent in prison in England and Wales, yet we still don't nowhere these children are who they nowhere these children are who they nowhere these children are who they are.

-- know where. It means they are not being brought to the attention of schools and due to the lack of awareness of the issue of parental imprisonment throughout schools, support the children with a parent in prison varies hugely from school to school. There is no uniform approach and many children are left without the appropriate support that they need. Amendment 482 would be a strong step in the right direction in increasing awareness and understanding of the harms of parental imprisonment within schools, ensuring pupils and students affected by parental imprisonment are supported through an inclusive, nonjudgemental approach stop children with a parent in prison should be given the same chance in life as any other child and this would help enable them to mitigate the impact of their parents imprisonment, overcoming it and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

fulfilling their academic potential. I strongly support the amendment
19:21
Lord Carter of Haslemere Portrait Lord Carter of Haslemere (Crossbench)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I strongly support the amendment of the Right Reverend Prelate. We of the Right Reverend Prelate. We know for a fact that children with a parent in prison significantly are at greater risk of suffering mental health difficulties than children who do not, including low self- esteem, depression, disturbed sleeping patterns and symptoms of PTSD. The Ministry of Justice research highlights a strong correlation between parental offending and child offending. Family members often explain parental imprisonment for children is akin to a type of bereavement from losing a parent and suddenly leaves the home and never returns.

It is not exactly the same. I remember visiting Holloway prison in the early 90s when it was a women's prison and it happened to be visiting our for the children seeing their mothers for the first time possibly in many months because of geographical distances involved in travel. It was wonderful to see the excitement and joy the children had in greeting their mothers after perhaps a long time, but that turned to despair and anguish when visiting time was over and sometimes, and I saw it, children had to be physically separated from their mothers by prison officers.

It was a horrific sight that still haunts me. Parental imprisonment is hugely underresearched. In most cases schools have a crucial work -- role to play and they are not aware that a pupils parent has been in prison. These children are forgotten and invisible victims of crime and totally innocent. Article 3 of the UN Convention of the rights of the child provides the best interest of the child must be a primary consideration in more decisions and actions than affect children.

It must be taken into account at every stage of a parents journey through the criminal justices to as these decisions affect these children directly. The Labour government in page 71 of the manifesto for the last general election commendably commented, committed to identifying and supporting children with a parent in prison. What has happened? Nothing as far as I can see. There is no statutory mechanism for identifying and supporting children with a parent in prison. I ask the Minister when will this manifesto commitment be fulfilled? I can answer my own question as the right reverend Prelate wonderful amendment provides a golden opportunity to fill the commitment right now.

It would not only raise awareness and understanding of parental imprisonment in schools but also provide clear guidance on how to mitigate the impact of a parent going to prison so that children are able to fulfil academic potential. Will the government grasp this opportunity to do something and accept this amendment this evening? accept this amendment this evening?
19:24
Lord Weir of Ballyholme Portrait Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)
-
-
May I firstly address this group of amendments by declaring an interest as a board member of the education authority in Northern Ireland responsible for 90% of education spend in Northern Ireland most personally with regards to these amendments has direct responsibility for those with special educational needs stop education in Northern Ireland. Can I say I would be broadly in favour of these amendments. I did have a caveat with regards to amendment 460 which Lord Storey has actually allayed some concerns I had in his opening remarks and I'm sure he will be pleased to hear.

In particular, these are important because they highlight the issue of the attainment gap and the different ways. I think across different jurisdictions where there may be some slight variation of which particular groups have particular issues around attainment gaps, the extent of the attainment gap, we know issues around educational underachievement are universal in whatever part of the United Kingdom and internationally. I think therefore the three areas we seem to be particularly true of in all jurisdictions are those of social economic disadvantage, children of prisoners.

And SEND children. These amendments offer foresight. When I was minister in Northern Ireland, I saw it as a key priority, tackling educational underachievement and ensuring we could take whatever steps we took in this manner to address the attainment gap. I established an expert panel to drop a report on the issue very much as the proposals being put forward today. That was drawn not simply on the basis of ensuring it had the right mix of cross-community element and drawn from the education sector, but pertinent to the proposals in front of us today, if we are looking at expertise and if it was on the basis of a single report or a Royal commission, I think we must draw a range of expertise as it was range of expertise as it was critical we had both people who work -- were from a working class background, community education background and had a direct experience of leadership within schools and it was only by those mix of skills the best of results could be produced.

I commend the efforts of the panel in Northern Ireland that produced the first art under great leadership of Noel Purdy. A lot of the conclusions reached in that report will not surprise the House and one of the major lessons we face on any of these reports will be that it is not a single solution which closes the attainment gap, it is a cocktail of measures. Issues such as ensuring we have the right early intervention, ensuring whatever has developed at a strategic level by government that if we simply try to do something on a top-down basis and impose it upon people, that will have a limited level of success.

You need to buy in from the grassroots as well. Also one of the conclusions of the report which touches on amendment 460 which is the advantage of small group tutoring and recommends the expansion of nursery units in Northern Ireland and there was additional finance going into those. A caveat I had was that if this is to be something done on a universal basis and expansion of that could be very costly and difficult to achieve in the short-term but the model put forward by Lord Storey is if you look at a replica drawn from the national tutoring program that was there at the time of Covid is a good example.

In Northern Ireland we had the example which was Engaged which was very good and if that is the model we are looking at, I think that is something that government would be wise to look at replicating on a long-term basis. On touching on some of the other amendments, I think it is right that we focus for a couple of major reasons on attainment issues with regards to children of prisoners. I think from the basic principle and I appreciate the previous speaker made reference to Holloway, there is the old saying that the sins of the father should not be inflicted upon the children and we know with a few exceptions most prisoners are males.

I think ensuring that if children are not punished in any system for something which is no fault of their own is something that is important from an educational point of view, societally, we talk about investing in society to save money in the long run. It seems to me one of the issues at times we will face in various families is a cycle of social problems that goes from generation to generation. If I think through education being a great liberator, we can ensure positive support for children of prisoners.

I think that is one important area where we can help bring that cycle. I look at the issue which is pertinent on special educational needs. We know different parts of the United Kingdom sees a lot of pressure around the system of special educational needs and we have seen it in England where concerns over the appropriateness of delivery which is there has lead in a number of cases in England with parents opting out of the state system and sending their children privately and I think as we have seen in different jurisdictions pressures will be there within the system because of special educational needs and will only increase in Northern Ireland and the Prime Minister brought forward a transformation programme and I suspect that the government will be under constant pressure to reform whatever provisions are made in terms of SEND.

In terms of where we are going to end and proposals, what I think is critical is any actions are grounded on the basis of what could actually help improve attainment SEND for pupils. This And finally I would say whether it is an adoption of report for national tutoring or whether it is a report on prisoners or Royal Commission SEND pupils, we often make the mistake in this place and indeed in other legislatures of indeed in other legislatures of If a report is produced, that is job done.

A former leader of mine I think once described government very happily as a never-ending relay race, and I think we need to look at this issue not simply as a period this issue not simply as a period that once the report is finished, what's critical is the implementation which will require resources and commitment of government, so therefore I would like to see around these issues not simply the steps taken I think of that drill down focus on attainment, but then so can actions -- subsequent actions to ensure that whatever recommendations are made are brought into practice.

are brought into practice.
19:33
Lord Gove Portrait Lord Gove (Conservative)
-
-
Can I rise I hope briefly to urge the noble Baroness the Minister to reject all three amendments? They reject all three amendments? They come I'm sure from the very best of intentions, making sure the disadvantaged children, making sure the children who labour under the additional difficulty of having a special educational need and children whose parents are in prison are deserving of our compassion and support. But the means by which the Baroness and the government are being urged to support these children as a diversion of resources and addition to bureaucracy and an impediment to progress.

The Noble Lord Lord Storey's request that we have a national tutoring guarantee seems to me to be a misdirection of resources. We should concentrate on making sure children are in school in the first place. When we have A- level of persistent -- absence and when any tutoring stuff would be staffed inevitably by people who are already stretched and hard-pressed members of the teaching profession, it would seem to me to be, and I hesitate to suggest that such a thing would ever come from the Liberal Democrat benches, a performative attempt to secure publicity rather than a thoughtful analysis of what is actually going on in our schools.

If we want a national tutoring guarantee, perhaps we should make sure that across the nation tutors, or as I prefer to think of them, teachers are guaranteed the support they deserve in the classroom. With respect to the children of criminals and those who are in prison, they deserve our support. The father and mother should not be, the sins of the mother and father should not be visited on the children but equally deserving of the children of veterans, the children of those who work in our emergency services, the children of others in homes where daily stresses and pressures are likely of course to increase the likelihood of anxiety or depression in that household.

To single out and to devote administrative resource to the children of one vulnerable group rather than others is simply to divert the energy of the Minister's civil servants from the work that they should be doing. And believe me, it's vitally important we improve education in the Criminal Justice Bill to what is the job of the Ministry of Justice to improve education in our prisons, which will make far more difference to ensuring that when people who are currently incarcerated leave, that they can be useful members of our society and supported in their parenting roles.

Most striking of course is the need to improve education for children who have special educational, but the term SEND has become so stretched and capacious that we almost lost sight of what we are really talking about. There are children who have high impact, low instant special educational, those living with severe learning difficulties, visual impairment or hearing loss who need discrete tailored support. Those children with physical disabilities who will need significant investment in order to achieve everything of which they are capable.

But there is a large and growing group of children about behavioural, emotional and social difficulties who certainly deserve our support to occupy a very different category from those who are living with neurological, physical or other barriers to learning. And I know civil servants are currently working in the department and ministers are paying attention to that, Royal Commission. It takes minutes and lasts years that would not actually provide the focus that is required to deal with those children. It would be a diversion once more.

Having been in the department worked with the outstanding civil servants who were there, I know just how hard-pressed they are, and I know that almost every day there are new calls upon their time from well-intentioned lobby groups who have compassion in their heart but will only lower the morale of those seeking to improve our schools. One thing I would say to the Minister is that we have actually seen in living memory, a narrowing of the attainment gap in state schools will stop it happened as a result of the policies introduced by the coalition government.

That was as a direct result of giving frontline schools greater autonomy, making sure that Ofsted provided appropriate and rigorous scrutiny with transparent judgement to our schools the parents could understand and it was allied to strengthening our curriculum and no accountability measures at the end of key stage 2 and three GCSE and A-levels. I'm afraid this legislation overall puts in peril some of those gains and some of the poorest children catch up with the wealthiest in schools, so as well as urging the Minister to reject these deeply flawed but well-intentioned amendments, I hope you will urge the secretary of state to think again about these measures in the bill which will do damage to the gains that were made and which will

**** Possible New Speaker ****

support -- were supported Once upon a time every party in this House. I rise to speak to amendment 490

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise to speak to amendment 490 in the name of the Noble Lord Lord Holmes to which my name is added. And I was delighted to put my name to this amendment because it took me back to thinking about my back to thinking about my experiences at school, which admittedly was a while ago but my parents used the work of Baroness Warnock to threaten to sue the Seco state for Wales over my right to go to mainstream education, and without that, I wouldn't have had that that, I wouldn't have had that career that I now have.

But the career that I now have. But the system that existed back then took a tiny percentage of disabled children, giving great education commander and else was just left languishing in a special school languishing in a special school system which actually didn't even system which actually didn't even allow children to sit exams. The school I nearly ended up in, at most I would have been able to sit three CSEs. So there was nothing around looking at the ambition of disabled looking at the ambition of disabled children.

And I'd hoped things would have moved on by now but the reality is disabled children in the UK still face significant educational face significant educational attainment gap compared to their nondisabled peers. And studies show they are significantly behind in the -- in key assessments and fewer degrees. Research shows children have the most educationally advantaged in the system command around four in 10 children identified as SEND at some point between the ages of five and 16. These children have been shown to have grades, multiple grades lower than their peers and I found myself in a slightly interesting situation but I agree with some of what the Noble Lord Lord Gove has said about making sure the children are absent, and I'm certainly not seeking to expand the definition of SEND, but I think there has to be something which is in the middle of where we are now and where I came from through my own educational experience because to me it's about getting the right support to the children that need it.

And disabilities right UK reported on the situation about the gap, and there's a huge gap for disabled children and even larger for children with no educational Health and Care Act plan. Seven 2019, children with an EHCP scored grades well over 3.4 places lower than a nondisabled child, and in 2020 that Had increased to 3.6 places lower. So whatever we are doing, it doesn't feel like we actually being able to educate and support disabled children in the best way that we can.

And we already know that disabled people when they are applying for jobs need a least a qualification higher than a nondisabled person, so if the job requires a degree, disabled person needs at least a Masters or PhD to have a chance of getting that job. And if we don't get this right we are not giving disabled people the right to work, pay taxes and contribute to society. Unlike other members in the chamber with its Royal Commission or however it works out, I do think we need to out, I do think we need to understand where we are and what is required, and this amendment fits required, and this amendment fits with amendments have gotten other groups which talks about teacher training because there is more we need to do that to make sure the need to do that to make sure the teachers are in the best position to be able to educate and teach everybody in the class, but at the everybody in the class, but at the moment that gap for disabled people is just too big.
19:41
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
If I might suggest a few words, particular inspired by the amendments of the Noble Lord homes in the Baroness Grey-Thompson. We know there's an attainment gap for those with disabilities. And we also know the bits of the education system don't help. The biggest one for me, and I remind the House yet again the time president of the again the time president of the British dyslexia Association, English and maths because the British Dyslexia Association also discovered dyscalculiac. I sat down with a child about three days ago who said they had a brother with dyscalculia who had been made to sit English 14 times and they still didn't have a pass.

What an incredible waste of time because we've decided that English and maths are gatekeeper exams. We are better at it. The English people have a better target their. Because they seem to understand it a little better. Maths is a real problem. Unless you get some degree of flexibility and understanding, and some look at the attainment gap and what causes that attainment gap would be very helpful. However of course I must slightly disappoint my two noble colleagues and I don't think I'm allowed to call the Noble Friends although I hope they are friends, is the fact that you would actually have to say identify educational needs.

Because you might know somebody who is blind or deaf or movement impaired. It's pretty obvious. We note that well over half the dyslexics in the country for instance are never identified. We just don't know the situation for the others. Dyspraxia et cetera, and we are still very bad at identifying we are still very bad at identifying it. So you could actually adjust this amendment to say we should have a look at the attainment results of those who have been identified. That would actually give you an idea of actually how the system properly fails because you know there is a problem.

We just haven't addressed it. There is a problem that is running through here. I hope when the Minister replies, she can start to address this because we know there is a problem here. We know there is something that is going on. And if we have that information ready, which we should, if there are identified problems, we might be up to bring it forward because actually addressing the problem itself would help. Briefly to the other amendments here, tutoring targeted will help these people, especially if they are trained to support.

Also for those in prison, and I've worked in the prison sector, not extensively but I've worked there, and the fact that a child is disadvantaged comes from an environment where everybody is expected to fail, will probably work into the other two groups. And I am still saying as a dyslexic the any time ever sat in a group of adults was educational attainment -- whose educational attainment was below mine was with a group of prisoners, and I'm pretty badly dyslexic. So it's a case of how to address this problem and address this idea and this culture is very important.

I hope the Minister when she responds will be able to give us some idea of what the general thinking of the government is because it's very important if we are starting to address these deep seated problems which we have given in many cases lipservice to in the past are going to get something which you don't have to be a Tiger parent fighting to get support for. Because that's
19:47
Earl of Effingham Portrait The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
-
-
His His Majesty's His Majesty's position His Majesty's position is His Majesty's position is that His Majesty's position is that we have to pay attention to the barriers that prevent children from lowering background, young carers and others from attaining higher grades and better results in school. Ensuring every child has a fair and Ensuring every child has a fair and equal chance is paramount and is entirely right that we should look for ways to mitigate these barriers wherever they arise.

That may well wherever they arise. That may well be achieved in different ways. For some children through homeschooling, for others through specialist for others through specialist academies as we already argued on other clauses for this bill. It is important that we look beyond structure and address the socio- economics reasons that often lie economics reasons that often lie behind underperformance. Disadvantage, low prior attainment and the additional burdens carried by some young people all need to be by some young people all need to be recognised.

We hope the Minister will use this opportunity to clearly set out how the government is working to level the playing field, ensuring no group of pupils regardless of background is either favoured or disadvantaged and even well-intentioned measures do not lead to any kind of positive discrimination. The principal of fairness and opportunity for all must remain central. For that reason, while we stop short of saying the statutory national tutoring guarantee is necessarily the best and only approach, we of course welcome the spirit of the First Amendment and we look forward to hearing other government amendments addressing the issue of violence.

On the second amendments in the group, let me thank the Bishop of Chelmsford for raising this important issue. The children of parents in prison are to often a hidden group and yet they face particular challenges that can significantly affect their educational attainment and life chances. We have had the opportunity to research the work that has been done by Children Heard and Seen. That research suggests schools were aware of just 30,000 children with a parent in prison, whereas the Ministry of Justice data estimates the number of children with a parent in prison in England and Wales is more likely 192,000.

The amendment rightly shines a light on their needs and on our responsibility to ensure they are not overlooked. We would be grateful if the Minister can take this opportunity to set out the steps the government is taking to address barriers faced specifically by these children and if they recognise them as a group that requires dedicated support and special help in addition to helping schools identify those affected children who would benefit from additional or tailored interventions from their place of learning.

It is only by identifying and acknowledging such groups, not just parents in prison children, but we can make sure no child is left behind, whatever the circumstances of their family life. And finally on amendment 490, we support the principle that lies behind this amendment and please let me thank Lord Holmes and Baroness Grey- Thompson for their tireless work in highlighting these challenges faced by children with special educational needs and disabilities. Their determination to improve outcomes for this group makes a huge difference and we hope the Minister will recognise the strength of feeling across the House on this matter.

That said, we do have reservation as to whether a Royal commission is the best medium to close the attainment gap for people with special educational needs and disabilities. Commissions can be lengthy, expensive and sometimes produce recommendations overtaken by events before the findings themselves can be implemented. Our goal is to ensure we do everything we can to enable children with special educational needs to leave school with the skills, independence, and confidence that will allow them to flourish and seize every opportunity available to them in the outside world.

That requires schools and educational delivery to be formulated in ways that are genuinely tailored for children's needs and not necessarily to meet a single uniform benchmark. For that reason, while we support the intent, please allow me to suggest another approach may be from the bottom up, focused on practised provision on the ground and in the corridors rather than launching a Royal commission. Nonetheless, the underlying issue of the greatest importance and we hope the dynasty will take the opportunity to set out how the government is addressing the attainment gap which has been made clear by noble Lords across the House.

That gap between those with special educational needs and those without and what more can be done to make sure every child is given the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

best chance to succeed. Can I thank all those who
19:52
Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I thank all those who contributed to this important group of amendments and I would like to of amendments and I would like to start my comments. It will not be possible to give the list that everyone specifically asked for, but I would like to start by making it absolutely clear that raising attainment for all children with inclusivity in mind and recognising the gaps wherever they occur is absolutely a top priority and for this government this is such a complex area of work as I believe has been eloquently highlighted by the contributions we have had to the three amendments in front of us today.

So if I could turn to the amendment from Lord Storey and he reminded us of the place we were in during those very dark days of Covid and the response to try and recognise that so many vulnerable young people were being left behind as a result of their absence from the school system. I fully appreciate the noble Lords concern and concern expressed by others, and particularly his interest in this space and is background and understanding how this works locally, but I would emphasise that whilst it was a program that came in time limited for obvious reasons, I think it is a program that has served its place and I'm very conscious of my Lord Gove's comments on how we target the resource we have.

The best resource is our schools and those involved in the system and I believe it is much better to go to those schools and let them identify the best way forward and it could be a tutoring program has worked specifically brilliantly for them that we know is not the case all over. I think we should have confidence in those schools to determine the best way that they can reach young people that really do need that additional support. It is as I say, schools can choose to continue providing tutoring through the use of funds such as pupil premium and being used to support disadvantaged children identified in this proposed amendment.

Also, the Department for Education published evaluations of the national tutoring program and we do not believe it would be good value and have further reporting on the tutoring program. Can I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I'm interested in the work that he did link to the report that he mentioned and I would be grateful. It is critical we listen to experience from our devolved regions and make sure we learn from all of the possible experience that we have.

And gathering information has been said from so many comments is one part of the issue. How we analyse that information and make it worthwhile and useful is another worthwhile and useful is another serious thing. My response to Lord Storey is we do not believe it is necessary to set up complete requirements of the framework in statute and we have confidence in schools to take us forward. Can I thank, moving onto amendment 482, the Right Reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford.

In and raising Bishop of Chelmsford. In and raising this whole important area. I recognise concerns expressed from across the House and I am grateful to her for raising such an important issue and I think we know that having a parent in prison can have a lasting detrimental effect on children's life chances including increasing their risk of low educational attainment as we have heard. I appreciate a supportive school environment can help buffer against these risks and teachers can help children to navigate a challenging time and aspire towards further education.

The government has committed to identifying supporting all children affected by parental imprisonment. It is not a simple, straightforward test. It is extremely difficult and I think we have two be aware of the gap in our knowledge and understand why we do have some of those gaps. -- have to be aware. We are considering how to support the cohort as part of the opportunity mission and obviously running through all of this is a theme of making sure educational attainment is at the centre of this, but there are so many other factors we need to bring in in terms of the well-being of children and young people and how that can have an impact.

While the request is welcome, it also risks duplicating the efforts to identify this cohort sensitively ensuring they are offered appropriate support and as Lord Gove said, the Ministry of Justice is stepping up in this space and the Department for Education is working closely with the Ministry of Justice to ensure all children affected by parental imprisonment including those.not of compulsory school age are recognised and receive the support they need to achieve and thrive alongside peers. I say this is sensitive because we cannot make the assumption that all children whose parents in prison have the same experience.

The different experience between siblings can be very stark. It is a very complex area and for some children who have a parent in custody might never live with that parent. We must be careful not to make assumptions about the experience and it is the approach of looking at all children recognising the specific experience can be very different indeed and sensitivity is paramount in this area. Turning to amendment 490 in the name of the noble Lord homes, can I thank him again for the way he expresses his concerns around these issues and can I extend those sentiments to everyone who contributed to this area.

I think again I would have to agree establishing a Royal commission on this subject perhaps is not the way forward. What we as a government have recognised is the whole area around special educational needs and education is educational needs and education is one that needs absolutely serious attention and I would have to say picking up on the comments of Baroness Grey-Thompson recognising the complexity of all of this is the reason why we are looking at that I know we are family guy on the next group after the dinner break to these issues in more detail, so don't cover too much of the ground the raised going forward.

But the reason I say that the Royal Commission perhaps isn't the best way forward at this time in terms of looking at the limited resource at our disposal and how we use that to the best effect to make sure that we actually address the needs, I have to say that the Department of education already holds data education attainment gap for children with SEND, including other relevant level of examination. For example key stage 214, which are all published on a regular basis.

High and rising standards around education are at the heart of our mission and the key to unlocking strong outcomes for all children, including those with special needs. The content on supporting and teaching pupils with SEND is a key element of that of the departments existing professional dwelling programs, and the governors recognised that this is not good enough. And that's why it's brought into new programs looking at teacher training, help teachers in mainstream can be much more aware of pupils needs and having that early sensitivity, and I think as Lord Addington has raised on this and other occasions, making sure that all teachers who work with children and young people have got that ability the extra support when needed.

It might seem obvious, but it really is an area that does need special focus. And that's why we have the focus on the mandatory initial teacher training and the early career framework. Bringing in the initial teacher training this month to make sure that we have the support going into our mainstream schools. This government's reforms to the school system will drive high and rising standards delivered through excellent teaching and leadership, and high quality curriculum and a system that removes the barriers to learning that we know all of us hold too many know all of us hold too many children back.

It's clear, I hope I've outlined our commitment to taking this forward. And I would just like to add the Baroness Grey- Thompson that of course we recognise the significance of special schools, the vital role they play in dealing with complex needs, but we also know that there is much more potential than is currently in the system for young people to thrive in mainstream. We want to make sure that the resource that becomes available and can go into those settings and provide appropriate provision within SEND units within provision within SEND units within schools.

So I think the overall conclusion with the three amendments in this group is that they highlight significant and important issues. And we want to make sure that the support we are bringing in breaches young people, and of course one of the main priorities is getting those young people into educational settings and making sure they have the ability to stay there and to thrive. And just to emphasise, through improving inclusivity and expertise in mainstream schools, ensuring specialist schools cater to those with the most complex needs, restoring trust for parents and carers that those children will get the support that they need is a very important journey that we are on.

And of course the details that so many Noble Lords have asked for a round toe intended approach will be clearly set out in the forthcoming schools white paper. With those comments, I hope the Noble Lords will withdraw their amendments. will withdraw their amendments.
20:06
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
I thank the Minister for her detailed reply and thank all members for their contributions. I was particularly taken by early thing and is comments when he said no child should be left behind, and these absolutely right. And I thought he was a -- had a very measured response. It was a good contribute from Lord Gove. As a coalition partner he did work in education. I was a bit surprised that he thought the idea of a tutoring program was a sort of LibDem publicity stunt.

During that time when he was Secretary of State for education, he focused on the attainment gap. Particular those with special educational, and have to say that actually that dial hardly shifted. For the work you did in that cataclysmic period, the attainment gap hardly shifted. And I also think to myself, I think he used the phrase how can poorer pupils catch up with wealthier pupils? Sadly, wealthier pupils if the child is behind, guess what? They might hire a tutor.

A tutor to help them catch up. And that's actually what the national tutor guarantee scheme would have done. And I think still despite some of the comments, I still think it's an area that we need closely to look at, not all children, not forever, but certainly as a catch up program for those young people, those children from disadvantaged backgrounds. With that I withdraw.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is a geologic splash of this amendment be withdrawn? Amendment is by leave withdrawn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The committee will now adjourn until 20: 47.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

until 20: 47. The committee stands adjourned
20:40
None Portrait House Adjourned During Pleasure
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment Amendment 461 Amendment 461 Lord Amendment 461 Lord Addington.
20:48
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment 461 Lord Addington. I thank Lord Holmes for that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank Lord Holmes for that welcome. We go back into special educational tear. There is a series educational tear. There is a series of amendments down the names of Lord Holmes and Baroness Thompson and Holmes and Baroness Thompson and Lord Carlile going through the list. Mine is the more general of all of them. We are looking at a general duty to have a look at special duty to have a look at special educational. Some of the specifics educational.

Some of the specifics that in the other amendments are probably thing that should be included in that general duty. included in that general duty. Trying to look down and look through about the teacher training that is accorded in here, unless you have teachers who are actually better equipped and increasingly better equipped to spot conditions here and deal with them in the classroom, you will always going to fail because you will have late diagnosis or you will have late diagnosis or known diagnosis. Many conditions, or you will have the wrong practice.

you will have the wrong practice. It's one of those things here that I'm trying to convince people getting extra help for special getting extra help for special education may be a bad thing if that help is by the system by which you have already failed. If you don't know what is required to be done sitting down saying, well you've already failed to do this, English will be a classic one. My experience which I worry mentioned once at the day on the committee, you're sitting down there, we going to be an extra 15 spelling tests when it evil every week and fail them all and you carry on doing it.

Just won't pass. This is because anybody who's got special ed means usually they process information differently. It can be the extreme cases, nobody expects somebody who is blind to copy of a black border whiteboard. If they do probably it is, I can't describe what that would be. You've got to have a different system of working in different structures that go with it. I could expand upon this for ages but the hour is late and other people with more detailed amendments

**** Possible New Speaker ****

awaiting to speak. All I would say is I beg leave to move my amendment and look forward to the rest of this debate. Amendment proposed optical city

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment proposed optical city to insert the following new clause is printed on the marshalled List.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

is printed on the marshalled List. Is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend Lord Addington and honourable friend Lord Addington and congratulate him for the work he congratulate him for the work he continues to do in this area. I rise
20:51
Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond (Conservative)
-
-
to speak to amendments 191 and 498 in my name and I thank Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Watson for cosigning the amendments. I will take them in reverse order, 498 first. Quite simply to address the issue that we discussed in the previous group of amendments, current SEND provision isn't current SEND provision isn't working. It's not working for the SENCOs try their utmost, the teachers who strain everything new to educate all in their classrooms, is not working for the parents and most importantly it's not working for those children with special education or a disability.

And yet it can if we start from the provision of inclusive by design and we set out an approach where the funding is identified and described to that same provision. I suggest that the Department should and must reach out beyond their own budgetary constraints because the reality is this is far more than an issue of education. If we look at for example the employment attainment gap for those with disabilities there is a clear causal relationship between the education attainment gap and that subsequent employment attainment gap.

Other departments must also pull their weight when it comes to addressing this issue of special education and disability provision. Which is why suggest in provision. Which is why suggest in amendment 491 a practical, reasonable and achievable measure to make a difference across government, to introduce a mentorship scheme for those young people with special educational disabilities. Before the question of distracting departmental officials from the incredibly important work, or the question of putting more pressure on already overstretched resources, I would suggest to the Minister that this would the an ideal situation for an effective, practical and achievable public-private partnership.

Imagine how local businesses, regional businesses, national and international businesses could get involved to help, support and be part of the delivery of such a mentorship scheme for children with special education and disabilities. Imagine the empowerment for those young people to hear from adults in successful careers, professions, jobs, activities, third sector work across the piece, who have themselves lived experience of being a disabled person and have come through and succeeded and achieved. That's not just mentorship, that is leadership, that's empowerment, that's enabling all of those young people.

I suggest a scheme which could be brought in with minimal if any disruption, with minimal if any resource pressures put on departments and the difference it would make for those children with special education and disabilities could be profound. Impacting the educational experience, setting them up for life, enabling them to not just positively be part of closing that education attainment gap, subsequently closing that employment attainment gap. That is something which I believe any government should have as one of its core provisions, I look forward to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister's response. In this group, 491 and 498 in the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In this group, 491 and 498 in the name of Lord Holmes to which my name is attached and 502U and 502 the
20:56
Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
-
-
is attached and 502U and 502 the which are only in my name. With regards to 491 we have only spoken about how disabled children are being left behind that I do worry that we are wrapping some disabled that we are wrapping some disabled children in Cornwall. Baroness Verma talked in an early group about resilience and I think we have to do more to ensure our disabled children in schools are able to build their resilience and this is one of the ways in which they can do that.

This amendment is not about physical activity but the fact disabled children are routinely excluded from physical activity in schools permits one of the ways you can build this resilience and there is often a myriad excuses, they are sent to the library which is often wrapped up in health and safety. It sometimes feels we are writing off disabled children before they been given a chance, there's less opportunity, there's also well lack of opportunity and ambition it's only something I like all children to be fed and it's probably dependent on what His Majesty's Government is thinking in terms of enrichment in the school day.

I declare an interest I'm chair of the Duke of Edinburgh awards and we are talking to the government about what this enrichment would look like. I do believe that providing mentoring will help, not just about grades but with Olding skills for life. Amendment 498 simply asked for a review of SEND provision and how it's funded, 502U links to other amendments that I have which are in other groups but this one sits better in this one. I don't think we got it right in terms of what support disabled children are getting in school, we have to think about what more we can do.

The organisation contact and the independent provider of special education advice surveyed 2,000 families with children and young people who have SEND but do not have an EHCP. To see how the process is working. What they concluded was there is not enough SEND support in schools leading many families to seek an EHCP to secure support their child needs, this just doesn't feel the right way that the system should be supporting disabled children, it leads to school avoidance, absenteeism, pupils put on part-time timetables and exclusion and therefore a never -- an ever decreasing circle of support and ambition to this amendment just seeks to ensure better support.

One thing I am keen on is that access to the curriculum for disabled children is not reliant on a single member of staff. I don't in this group of amendments seek to debate the role of TA's, but actually it's about how we get the right support beyond that that we just don't limit children opportunities. I know there is going to be some discussion about whether in this amendment their role should sit under the provision of a qualified to finally 502 the, I think we need to know how much we think we need to know how much we spend on SEND provision.

Lord Agnew in a previous group and admittedly it wasn't talking about this, said how important it was to identify how every penny is spent on schools and I think we do have to get a better I think we do have to get a better understanding of how SEND money is spent. I don't need to place a lot of additional work in schools but we of additional work in schools but we just need to know that we are getting value for money and ultimately we have got the right provision for disabled children to thrive.

thrive.
21:00
Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)
-
-
I rise to speak about amendments 502Q, R, S, T and W, all of which are in my name, amendment 502 are supported strongly by Baroness Bull who has expressed sincere regrets not being able to be with us tonight because of a long-standing engagement. The purpose of these amendments is to achieve coordination between criminal justice services and schools in justice services and schools in relation to children with special education needs. The amendments are education needs.

The amendments are the product of a review carried out by Michael save foundation, chaired by Professor Cheryl Thomas Casey of University College London of which Of those children cautioned or sentence, ET, 80%, have special educational needs and neurodivergence. It is found when reports are written about them for reports are written about them for the courts that that 80% all have a cocktail of different problems. They will include school exclusion, custody at an earlier age, longer sentences, that they are end in, and that their crimes are often involving violence.

And it is a involving violence. And it is a matter for real concern that these children are appearing so often in police stations with very little understanding of what is happening to them for the process of dealing with children in police stations. Though it is much more sensitive than it used to be, it is not actually child friendly in the sense of enabling the child to understand what is happening to them. And of course when children are arrested very high percentage of those that are charged and remain in custody, although many of those that are tried and convicted are not sentenced to custody, but the fact of their being in custody leads to them becoming associated from their families and, above all, from their education.

Education in young offenders institutions can be absolutely excellent, sometimes extraordinary, inspired. And sometimes it is pretty dreadful. And what are those educational institutions within child custody centres dealing with even if they are very good? Some years ago I visited a young offenders institution when I was doing a report on the use of restraints, physical restraints, on children in And a young lad beckoned me into his cell saying he wanted to show me something, so I went into the cell with the prison of and he pointed to his grade a star GCSE maths certificate.

On the wall and said to me that he hoped he could be a maths teacher when he was an adult. I hope he is, it was some years ago. I asked him a silly question to be in with, do you like maths, but then I said to him were you very good at maths when you were at school? He said I never went to school. I said what do you mean? I have not been to school since I was 11 years old. And then you have a child that is immature for his age, came from a terrible background, difficult background, had been convicted of Serious Crime Act and are saving quite a long sentence, but he had a talent to another ever been properly harnessed.

And, to be fair to him, in terms of the prison, it had been harnessed in the young offenders institution, but I do not know what happened when he was released in a few months after I spoke to him. So, the foundation in the report sought to tackle the relationship between the education system, the Criminal Justice Act system, and particularly for the cohort of children I have been talking about already. These amendments are only part of the foundation report.

They are the ones I could get in scope, heaven knows the scope of this bill has been pretty large. Given that we can observe it from the fact that these amendments are 502 onwards. In men number 502 In men number 500 and 2Q there is an attempt when a child is subject to police involvement to try and create an educational plan that means they are not kept in custody and not removed from school. 502 are which was signed by my Noble Friend requires mandatory training in SEND and neurodivergence for all teaching staff to support children with SEND and neurodivergence.

I know a lot of schools provide such training, but it does not happen uniformly everywhere. And it is absolutely essential and I agree with everything that the Noble Lord has said. It is absolutely essential that the educational difficulties that group of children have are catered for in all schools. It is absolutely pointless making all of them to write and write essays based on the books they have read in their English class or based on the difficult algebra that many of us enjoyed as a pleasure while at school.

502S places a very important duty on schools to work with youth courts to provide the assessment of special educational needs on neurodivergence. How could somebody be sentenced? How could a judge or magistrate make a decision on the disposal if they do not have in front of them the evidence that is required to give a proper disposal. I know of one case in which one child was released without cautioned by the police to their loving parents.

Telling him off in the police station whilst he was being interviewed and the other child that was with him on the expedition that led to their arrest was kept in custody because he was a looked after child. That sort of discrimination occurs in this system also and it is just not acceptable and it is, I am afraid, the only place where responsibility can be taken to provide the proper care and results for these children trying to By the Government. The Government has make the rules.

It is not good enough to lead it to individual schools, individual police forces, individual police stations anywhere to make the provisions and the adaptations necessary to deal with this cohort. And amendment 502 500 and 2T places a duty on schools to support reintegration and rehabilitation for children before they are in custody, even when they are dealt with by the police. Who would have thought that would have been obvious, something that one would not have to provide for, but it is not provided for.

And, finally, amendment 500 and 2W provides for proper collection of data and reporting of that data so that those who have to deal with this difficult cohort of children, this very large cohort of children are able to draw conclusions from the data that is being collected so that they can better deal with those children in the future. I would urge upon the Minister in replies and these amendments that all I have been proposing is something that is commonsense, is actually not properly provided for at the present time, the Michael C foundation did a calculation of the savings that would be made over I think it was a five year period.

If the sorts of measures were taken that are in these amendments. It runs to over £100 million because if we can help those children not to end up in custody, if we can help them when they get into trouble with the police to be disposed of by the court in a way that does not lock them up and take them out of education with their families, we have a far better chance in making them into responsible citizens who

**** Possible New Speaker ****

might even pay their taxes. This group of amendments are very

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This group of amendments are very important when it comes to SEND important when it comes to SEND provision. I am particularly attracted to the amendment for 98 in terms of the SEND vision review in
21:10
Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
-
-
terms of the SEND vision review in the name of the Noble Lord and Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Watson. But also Baroness Grey- Thompson's amendment 500 and 2B on the need for more transparency and reporting on SEND funding in state funded schools seems a key and obvious demand. Because the SEND issue is having huge financial impact on schools and on education in general. But for me as well as that the issue of SEND provision is important because I think that it potentially is shaping how young people see themselves and in some instances they are being encouraged to develop a habit and with addressing their own everyday experiences.

In this situation in which one of five children in the UK are not identified as having SEND needs, and the Government of education health and care plans for those with the most severe needs increasing by 83% from the 2015/16 to 2023/24, and the number of 11 to 15-year-olds receiving the Disability Living Allowance with the main condition determining eligibility is a learning disability such as ADHD that has increased by a % between 2023 and 2024, something peculiar seems to me is going on and I think it is hard to explain what's happening here but we do need to acknowledge that there is a wide social definition of mental health and neuro diversity and we will mention this again briefly in the next group.

Informally if you go into the next scoop and talk to pupils of all ages as I do, teachers or anyone that is familiar with young people, when you go and talk to young people they regularly describe themselves through the prism of a range of mental health acronyms or their particular divergence from the neurotypical norm. They use that language of medical textbooks and psychiatry with ease. Meanwhile, teachers have the concern of these labels and item shoe and we are all watching educating Yorkshire on trial for about almost inevitably there is a behavioural issue staff suggest testing people for ADHD and both an explanation and the solution as I do think that investigating what is going on here is essential and that is why I am interested in the review, but also in that context I also hope that the amendment and the Minister get the opportunity to read if they have not read it already a new policy exchange entitled out of control, addressing the rising psychiatric and neurodevelopmental disorders amongst children and young people.

I know the policy I found this report fascinating. One issue it identifies is a bug in the system of support. This argues it is designed to meet the needs of a small number of specialised cases rather than the sizeable numbers that they are now expected to support and even more troubling the systems of support can incentivise diagnosis seeking behaviour that can squeeze support for those with a severe need and those kinds of issues we already touched on by the Noble Lord in an earlier group.

Again, to return to spending, for those with SEND has ballooned but funding per head has fallen by funding per head has fallen by nearly 1/3 since 2013 to 2016, so I just hope that the movers of the amendments and the Minister will consider the risks of overdiagnosis in relation to SEND but also our current support may inadvertently encourage an escalation in this rather than targeting the support where it is absolutely needed the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

most as has been described by some of the speakers in this group. My Lords, in contrast to the
21:14
21:16
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
-
-
No one stands to speak here or anywhere else about SEND and preparing for a social media by Roger another but unless the underlining problems and intentions can be discussed openly and honestly there can be little hope of getting to a better place than we are in at the moment. My parents point of view some are happy but others say that theoretical entitlements do not translate into the support they believe a child needs. From a schools perspective they are loaded with enormous expectations and inadequate resources to meet them.

From a fund as perspective, I watering amounts of money are already being spent on SEND. If we do the sums the average household in England is already contributing £450 per year just for the cost of a high needs block on top of the other money it contributes for education. Yet local authorities must meet Yet local authorities must meet With few levers to direct that resource will make the most difference. As my honourable friend Lord Gove said in a previous group the SEND category has diversify to an extraordinary degree in recent years.

Among other things I think when mixing up the children who have lifelong conditions that will always affect their lives, with those who really only need some touchup teaching or some extra encouragement and you should be able to lead unimpaired adult lives. They are really quite different things. Clearly the situation can't go on and I think it explains the raft of amendments relating to SEND that have been proposed for insertion of the clause 62 as the bill doesn't contain any direct proposals for SEND.

In aggregate, what I take from these proposed amendments is a hope that if only we can find a few more ways to extend and push harder everything will be better. There are certainly ideas that deserve attention within these amendments, we do need a national body for SEND, but what we need is the SEND equivalent of NI CE, a body that collates and where necessary commissions the evidence of effectiveness of Mally value for money for SEND interventions and determines, excuse me, and determines which treatments can be paid for out of the public purse and which cannot be justified.

Someone does need to set and hold that line. We do need better join up between schools and Youth Justice Grant is, Lord Carlile's alternative educational plan for children involved with youth just a, thank you, parallels my honourable friend Lord Nash's amendment discussed in a previous group. But we have already pushed identification and labelling to the point that they may be doing more harm than good to some children at the margins.. Even though a label may feel reassuring it can also do real harm.

If it lowers the child's own expectations of what they can achieve all the teachers expectations of them. Neuro divergences a term that has no clinical definition. In essence, it invites people who don't meet clinical criteria and thresholds to self identify into services and funding streams intended for those who do meet those retiring -- criteria. The definitions that float around for neuro divergences often sound like most young people's adolescent experience, I suspect there are fewer of us who didn't feel awkward, socially inept and often just out of things in that period of life.

Good schools understand the adolescent experience and work to make culture and framework in which teenagers have the structure and encouragement they need foremost to succeed and emerge into adulthood without ever needing to be labelled as abnormal. And reserving specialist support for those who really do need it. The government must take great care not to create incentives to segregate children within schools into SEND and non-SEND categories. With very few exceptions children with rare physical needs, children need to run the same things stop cognitive science shows that they learn in the same way.

Though some may need the learning broken down into smaller steps with more repetition and reinforcement along the way. Most children with SEND will do the vast majority of their learning in their mainstream classrooms. Concentrating on getting that core classroom experience right for all children with a strong and coherent, well sequenced curriculum taught effectively, must come first. effectively, must come first. Because doing this well minimises the number of children who will come adrift, which is never a pleasant experience with a child.

And this enables the expert SEND put practitioners to concentrate those who will also ways need their help. If for example we expect SEND funding to be spent on things that are specific to children with SEND, those mainstream classrooms will be neglected and starved of resources. So I do look forward to the government bringing forward its reform proposals for SEND and to proposing amendments in this vein in due course. due course.
21:21
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
-
-
I very much support Lord Carlile's amendment 502W. We need a much better standard and a much better quantity of data in this area. We need to start with some very clear understandings and definitions of the terms we are using. There seems to me to have been a lot of drift in definitions and expansion, we need to get back to something which is clear and commonly defined and commonly understood. Then we really need to understand what works for these children.

We need to track what we are doing and when it works and why are doing and when it works and why it works. This is a really complex area, we won't get the answer to small studies and small mats of data, we need to track every child who has been fingered as SEND and by tracking every child we will get enough data to start seeing some patterns. We can add into that other patterns. We can add into that other categories, perhaps such as young carers and those who are in care where there are known difficulties with their education that aren't associated with SEND but which may well share some common characteristics.

If we get better data we will really start to understand how to do better by the children and work the cost down at the same time. I think that's really important. The only other thing I would say is we've got Lord Carlile in the spirit some of the other things he is doing but I would hope that this came to be enacted it was alongside it, a mission of the interests of the other children in the class.

the class.
21:24
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
We have had some very thoughtful speeches on the issues facing people's with special ed and disabilities in general and neuro divergences particular. There is no doubt that this is a pressing issue for parents, for pupils and staff, and of course local authorities whose budgets are being severely impacted by the costs associated with education, health and care plans or EHCPs. Is all noble Lords are aware the government is committed to publishing a new white paper in relation to SEND has been working with an expert group ably led by Tom Rees, the CEO of Ormiston Academy trust, this is an incredibly important task.

On these benches we hope very much the government is able to show a positive way forward that addresses some of the problems which beset the current system. The plans for this report mean I think that amendment 498 is not needed. I would also say that I understand the criticism of the Children and Families Act 2014 which introduced the current system, however all who were involved with that legislation including some noble Lords who have been in the House today had the best interests of children with special educational and disabilities at the forefront of their minds.

So whatever the government proposes I hope very much they will take the time to pilot it and avoid the problems of implementation and unintended consequences that the current approach has found. I hope also that we can move away from banking terms such as SEND or neuro diversion, as they cover such an incredibly wide spectrum. With that in mind I'm cautious about some of the amendments in this group including amendment 491 in the name of Lord Holmes of Richmond which would include mentors for all children with SEND and the implications for amendment 502S.

Given my earlier amendments and exclusions it won't surprise Lord Carlile that I don't agree with .2 in his amendment 502Q in this group. Which would make a presumption against permanent exclusion fixed term exclusion for the reasons I've set out earlier. Similarly I disagree with amendment 502T in the noble Lords name which would better duty on schools to support reintegration of the pupils who have been in custody without any balancing consideration about the impact on the other pupils in the classroom.

Again I'm not convinced that either amendment 502 are in the name of Lord Carlile or 502 you in the name of Baroness Grey-Thompson are needed. There is already extensive content both in the early years and the core Initial Teacher Training curricula following updates undertaken by the last government in relation to these issues. When I talk to real experts and inclusive teaching they are clear that for pupils who are able to attend mainstream school same approach is very high quality teaching applied to them to and I agree absolutely with Baroness Spielman when she says that the core way that we all learn is much bigger perhaps than many of us appreciate.

Indeed the SEND review of 2022 put it very clearly that high quality teaching differentiated for individual pupils is the first step in responding to children who have or may have special education rather I think there is a big gap in our understanding of the impact of different interventions, some commentators have called for the creation of something a bit like NICE that we have for pharmaceuticals where there could be a similar something for SEND intervention.

I've been sent some examples of the kinds of requirements that are put on schools for children with Education, Health and Care Plans. They range the ones I saw range between nine and 44 separate requirements, many of them not based on any academic evidence of their effectiveness but all of them creating a great workload for schools and I think that's something I hope the government is going to grip in this review and address. I do have a lot of sympathy for amendment five OTV in the name of Baroness Grey Thompson as I spent a lot of time trying to understand the flows of funding for EHCPs as have many much more robust organisations such as the IFS and the National Audit Office.

It remains very difficult to get clarity on how the system works from a financial point of view and given the sums of money involved it surely would make sense to be able to do this. Amendment 502W in the name of Lord Carlile builds on five OTV and aims for cross sector reporting and I am hoping that with the new single unique identifier some of that would become much more possible and will certainly reveal some very valuable data but I look forward very much to the Minister's comments on these
21:31
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-
It has been a common theme of this It has been a common theme of this debate this evening that members, noble Lords from across this House noble Lords from across this House will recognise the pressures facing our special education and our special education and disabilities system, a system that many families find frustrating to navigate, one where too often the outcomes for children for short of what they deserve, and whereas we what they deserve, and whereas we have heard from noble Lords I think have heard from noble Lords I think Baroness Spielman a considerable Baroness Spielman a considerable amount of money is being spent with insufficient evidence of effective insufficient evidence of effective outcomes and certainly in a system outcomes and certainly in a system which has lost the trust of parents.

For all of those reasons I can assure the House that this government remains absolutely committed to reforming the SEND system. Our ambition is clear, we want all children to receive the support they need to succeed in their education and to lead happy, healthy and productive lives. Turning to the amendments in this group which raises important questions about the support available to children and people with SEND, firstly amendment 498 tabled by Lord Holmes of Richmond, concerning a review of SEND provision in England, whilst thanking the noble Lord for both his amendment and his obvious commitment and concern to improving the situation I don't think what we need situation I don't think what we need We know and in fact we have heard in the debate this evening many failures of the SEND system and there have been many reviews by the previous Government, by Parliament, by that National Audit Office, this Government inherited a system with significant failings and we know that too many children and young people with SEND are not getting the support that they need.

That is why we are determined to take action and we are committed to bringing about a more inclusive education system. This is a difficult and complex task. We are working with parents, teachers, and experts that we have appointed. We are fortunate as the Noble Lady baroness has said that leadership of practitioners in this job and of course particularly to listen to those with lived experience to make sure that we get it right. I would think my Noble Friend for her recognition of both Friend for her recognition of both the action and also the attendance and the approach of my new ministerial colleague from absolutely at the beginning of her time in the role making sure she was listening to people that were most impacted by the work we were doing in this area and the details of our intended approach to reform will be set out later this autumn.

Turning to amendment 461 tabled by the Noble Lord Addington proposing the establishment for SEND and I think this is an important issue as others have said that we have a range of ways we might want to bring this into the approach we are taking think it would be a nice idea. It makes I think the important point that is being made there is the need to ensure evidence-based practice in what is being proposed and I can issue a noble Lords that will be and is being a very important turn out of the approach the Government is considering in this area.

I do not believe another body at the moment would necessarily contribute to that. Our focus is on making the system less bureaucratic and support to children and young people who need it quickly and efficiently. Turning to amendment 502 and 502 you tabled by the Noble Lord Carlisle and the Noble Lady baroness Thompson respectively I appreciate them raising the issue of the quality and training of our staff and in particular the issue of mandatory training in SEND to teaching staff and education standards for teachers, inclusion does lie at the heart of our work and our approach is vital in meeting the needs of children and young people with SEND.

All teachers, to an extent, are teachers of special educational needs and disabilities and we need to approach their training in that spirit, I believe. But in specific cases teachers in special schools for example are already required to have qualified teacher status unless they're working under an exemption and in compliance with the teaching standards all teachers must be able standards all teachers must be able to adapt their teaching to understand the needs and support pupils, including those with SEND, in October 2024 the Government also introduced that national professional qualification for SENCO and mandatory qualification supporting them to develop the essential knowledge and performance needed to set a strategic direction on SEND policy.

From this month initial teacher training will include significantly more content on supporting pupils with SEND and adaptive teaching because as others have said all teachers need to know how to adapt their teaching for a range of students in their classes and certainly to recognise the special educational needs and disabilities within those classes. This, of course, being delivered through the mandatory initial framework and in addition to this my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is also a to provide more training for teachers on SEND and the details of this are currently being worked through.

Turning to amendment 491 tabled by the Noble Lord homes regarding the establishment of a school mentorship scheme for children with SEND, the SEND code of practice is clear that all children and young people with SEND should be prepared for adulthood and that schools and colleges should use a wide-ranging imaginative approaches such as taster opportunities, work experience, Mint Tory, exploring entrepreneurial options, and inspiring speakers. Additionally, schools and colleges are expected to provide careers guidance to all children and young people.

This includes at least one meaningful interaction with employers per-pupil per yeah. And we are also funding employer engagement activities. We will be considering the feedback and experiences of previous mentoring activities. This includes the mentoring pilot for apprentices with learning difficulties and disabilities that was delivered in 2024 and explored what additional support young people with additional needs may require from mentors. Turning now to amendment 502B tabled by the Noble Lady Baroness Grey- Thompson regarding transparency and SEND funding in state funded schools, as I have already said, the considerable think one thing is that we are clear about without the transparency measures that the considerable amount of money being spent at this moment on SEND education, the outcomes for children who want it to deliver.

That was the clear message of the National Audit Office report. I also understand the point that the Noble Lady is making about how we can achieve more transparency within schools and the way that funding is being allocated to SEND and delivered of steps inspection of schools does of course cover how school support pupils with SEND. But we think it is important that schools have autonomy over how they spend their core funding allocations or trust school leaders to make decisions that best serve their pupils and we would be concerned asking schools to produce detailed annual reports of the kind proposed placed a burden, for example asking teachers to work out precisely how much time they spend supporting children with SEND and the resulting increase in paperwork is less time.

I think the call for this transparency and the effectiveness and the outcomes receiving from the money that is being spent is very legitimate but we need to be careful that we do not set up strangers that actually increase burdens without increasing the real transparency or the ability to drive the practice. Turning now to amendment 502Q the practice. Turning now to amendment 502Q2 ST W all tabled by the Noble Lord Carlisle aims at preventing children with young people and SEND from unnecessarily entering the system and I think that Noble Lord for raising this issue and the important work that is done in this space and I noted at this point the report and I will certainly make sure if it has not already that was the intention of those people within the Department working hard on this area.

In relation to amendment 502Q, the Government does recognise the importance of safeguarding and coordination regarding exclusions, the changes that this amendment would make to the statutory school exclusion review process may so cause unintended burdens, particularly on youth just to spread is. In all cases as we talked about earlier when thinking about this school leaders should consider early intervention to address this behaviour before excluding and any decision to exclude must also be lawful, reasonable, fair, including when there is police involvement or parallel criminal proceedings against them.

Turning to amendment 502S and 502T which proposed duties on schools to work to provide assessments with SEND and to support reintegration and the ability Asian for children post custody we do support that spirit of both of these amendments. But believe that the existing statutory framework already provides mechanisms to deliver those outcomes. Local authorities have a statutory duty to establish a multiagency Youth Offending Team with members from the police social services health and education. They are equipped to work with schools and other relevant partners to compile assessments and youth courts, ensuring the children's diverse needs are appropriately identified and responded to.

In addition, these offending teams also play a central role in supporting reintegration post custody. Their work is designed to provide continuity and consistency across services and they are well-placed to draw in education partners including schools were needed, placing a direct duty on schools would therefore risk confusing the existing multiagency working. Regarding amendment 502W that concerns the cross sector I do welcome the intention to strengthen coordination across services and ensure that no child is left unseen or overlooked.

However they already have the means to understand the interplay between exclusions, social care involvement, and special educational needs to nationally connected official statistics and these datasets provide a valuable foundation for working and on a unique reference plan I can, of course, reassure the House that this bill already makes provision for a consistent identifier and we had important discussions about that earlier on during Committee stage and we have initiated a series of test pilots to explore how best to expand the use across safeguarding and welfare and data sets, these pilots will inform a careful and incremental approach to implementation.

I think this is a group of amendments which understandably identifies the need for the considerable amount of work that is currently going on within the department and, as I said at the beginning, alongside parents and other experts in ensuring that we are able to improve our SEND system and for those reasons I hope that noble Lords will feel able at this point to withdraw their amendments with the certainty that their contributions will be added to this really important work and the system really important work and the system
21:46
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
This is... I am reassured by the amount of attention that is paid to the subject. That we are doing something, that we are actually getting through and getting to the government had. We don't actually know whether the results we've got yet are going to be delivered. And there have been... Just to sum up some of the arguments, Baroness Spielman, saying there are problems but over identification if I could paraphrase her. But the fact of the matter is, we know for many of these hidden needs, problems, educational diverse problems call it what you like, we don't identify most of them.

There is, this means somebody who is in an environment where the learning process isn't one that they enjoy, probably it might be something like delivering information. That's usually where basic blocks are. There are identified ways now to deal with it, most of which are quite cheap. Technology, I declare my interest as chairman of microlink plc, most of the technology you have isn't specialist any more, a lot of it is on every computer. It's about structuring and you get at it.

It's also identifying the structure and way in which you learn to make it acceptable in a mainstream classroom to be using it. Headphones are not regarded as a good thing in most classrooms at the moment, until you realise it might be the way you are taking in information. Attitudes to technology will cover this. There is a great thing about no smartphones in school, wonderful platform to hold assistive technology. Going through there. So I suggest it's a bad thing, no it's not if used correctly.

Computers, screens, structures. The noble Lord shakes his head, idiots. We are going through this thing about how we use them and how we use this going forward. Noble cut -- Lord Carlile talked about the Criminal Justice System, he is right draw attention to it for the very simple reason that if you want to find what happens to somebody who doesn't address the easy-going to any prison. And talk to them. Any prison for any of the groups you will find a huge overrepresentation.

Autism is greatly open overrepresented in there, people who are manipulated or people who react badly to violence, react badly with violence sorry. There are so many complications here, but most of the solutions are comparatively simple. And flexible and made more easily available now than they were. I would hope when we get this review that the government accepts that they will probably save a great deal of money if they get this right. But Baroness Barran was quite right about one thing, and we implement at the last system and I was on that bill, I think myself and I managed to convince Lord Nash to save one tree and a burning forest because we managed to get a concession on dyslexic youngsters taking apprenticeships didn't have to do the exam in the way forward.

That was although. You've got the rest of it coming through, it is very easy to make mistakes by making assumptions. I would hope that the Minister takes back yet again I hope she takes back to her department the fact that you are dealing with problem which we have identified but we are struggling to deal with because the structures are just wrong. And the considerations outside special education will bear an incredible weight on it. I refer back to the fact that if you got a course and you are dyslexic or Is Is -- Is -- or Is -- or dyslexic Is -- or dyslexic you Is -- or dyslexic you can't Is -- or dyslexic you can't write quickly, you got a problem.

That is the sort of balance I would be looking from this, it is not just about help it is about structure. Having said all that and the hour is Having said all that and the hour is late I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
21:51
Baroness Tyler of Enfield Portrait Baroness Tyler of Enfield (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Is at your Lordships pleasure that the amendment to be withdrawn? It is by leave withdrawn. Amendment 462 Baroness Tyler of Enfield.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise to speak to amendment 462 in my name they thank Lord Storey and Baroness Finlay for adding their and Baroness Finlay for adding their names. This is a very important group, it's about mental health and well-being of children, something that is or indeed should be central that is or indeed should be central to this bill. The name on the tin. I amendment would ensure dedicated those currently dealt with by early intervention, CBT that's cognitive behavioural therapy support, which is currently delivered by existing is currently delivered by existing Mental Health Support Teams.

To be clear I very much welcome and applaud the government's commitment applaud the government's commitment in the spending review to expanding Mental Health Support Teams to all schools and colleges in England. These teams work with children, with parents and wider school staff to parents and wider school staff to promote good mental health and funded through the health system provide effective prevention and provide effective prevention and early intervention support for early intervention support for children with a range of men -- mild-to-moderate mental health needs including things like low mood and anxiety, they are doing important anxiety, they are doing important These teams are staffed by education mental health practitioners and I do recognise the terminology can be a bit confusing here, but it's a relatively new role within the children and young people's mental health workforce system.

As these Mental Health Support Teams expand these practitioners in training are recruited within a work-based placement whilst completing a diploma or postgraduate qualification over a period of one academic year. During this time practitioners are trained to deliver low intensity cognitive behavioural therapy to children or in some cases to parents to allow them to directly support their children. Whilst this approach has been effective for children with lower-level needs, CBT is not appropriate for all. Evidence has shown that some groups of children are less likely to benefit from these interventions, including those with special, younger children and children experiencing moderate to more complex mental health needs.

The problem is, this is specifically what my amendment is designed to address, it's that this group of children with more complex needs still don't meet the very high threshold for child and adolescent mental health services because their needs are deemed to be not severe enough. In short, they are currently falling through a gap in support and is often referred to as the missing Cams have closed 28% of referrals without offering any support, this results in Mental Health Support Teams in schools often being asked to hold cases that they are not trained to work with safely, leaving children at risk.

These children include -- include those who are at risk or having indeed self-harmed, those who have experienced trauma bereavement or loss and have thoughts of suicide. These things are real these children not making those things up. These children are often clearly visible to the professionals within schools in the health service through repeat presentation at health services, often they are struggling, not attending school or unable to engage with learning. I think it's worth noting that respective voluntary sector providers such as Barnardo's and Place2be have recommended that as part of the government's rollout of Mental Health Support Teams the model is expanded to include provision of funded school based counselling.

They say it would feel this missing middle to ensure all children in mental distress can access timely support. The dedicated mental health professional qualified at the right level such as school- based councillors would normally hold a degree in counselling and psychotherapy that would both improve outcomes in children whose needs are not currently being met and should help, and I think this is critical, reduced pressure on the AMS in a cost-effective way because they are trained to deliver a range of different therapeutic skills and approaches that allow them to understand the unique needs of each child, because A1 size does not fit all, I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Evidence from other UK nations demonstrate how unbending school counsellors can indeed reduce pressure on the AMS, in Wales where school counselling services are statutorily funded, only 1.7% of those accessing counselling need to be referred on to specialist the AMS. So existing Mental Health Support Teams are school-based councillors they have the outer school based counselling they have different training and different convocations in a different skill set. They each fill a different mental health need and working together could offer more support to more children and is currently the case.

In conclusion my amendment proposes that the skill mix of Mental Health Support Teams workforce is expanded to ensure all children have access to an appropriately qualified health practitioner as part of the rollout. I very much look forward to hearing the Minister's response on this. Finally I want to express my very strong support to amendment 472 in the name of Lord O'Donnell to which my name is attached and also to amendment 479 in the name of Lord Watson. Just a few very quick points on amendment 472.

This is a bill about children's wellbeing but frankly with very few direct references to the broader issue of well-being and certainly without any provisions for measuring well-being. This amendment provides for a single optional online well-being survey delivered annually in schools and with centralised support made available to schools who wish to take up the option. This is I think a very modest but important ask. School data from the surveys would not be published or used to penalised schools in anyway or be part of the formal accountability systems.

In case of any misunderstanding, this is not a stick to beat schools with. The survey would be optional, schools would not be mandated to participate, it is up to them as indeed it would be for parents and carers and pupils to opt out should they choose. But we know from a recent YouGov poll that 75% of parents agree that to improve young people's well-being we do need to measure it. Critically the data collected would allow the whole system to respond including children's services, education, health and the voluntary sector at both national and local level.

I just end by pointing out what I think we all know, that happy and healthy children are most likely to be present at school to engage in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

learning and to achieve their full potential. Surely that is what we all want, and we have a real chance here to progress the same. I beg to move. Amendment proposed, after clause

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment proposed, after clause 62, insert the following clause in the words as printed on the marshalled List.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

marshalled List. I rise to talk on behalf of amendment 472 in my name and that of Baroness Tyler, she has spoken very Baroness Tyler, she has spoken very well, Lord Layard and Lord Moynihan.
21:59
Lord O'Donnell Portrait Lord O'Donnell (Crossbench)
-
-
well, Lord Layard and Lord Moynihan. This is a modest proposal but it is actually probably the most important one. I've sat through all the hours of this and for all of you who have spoken, if this doesn't go through you will not succeed. The reason for that is because I haven't spent over two decades in the Treasury without knowing that you need evidence, you need to prove what works. All of you have talked about various things, Baroness Spielman just mentioned about various interventions and wanting to know whether the costs were worthwhile, whether the benefits are worthwhile.

Absolutely right. You mentioned NICE. NICE, thickly -- key about NICE is it works out whether this medicine is worthwhile by doing a cost benefit analysis based on quality adjusted life years. We have now more sophisticated measures known as well-being years. In order to understand whether a thing makes sense we need to do the assessment and for that we need data. All of you have made suggestions, we want more physical exercise, we want more molest bullying and we want to think about what things in SEND work.

We need to, as Lucas said, some common definitions. We need a common definition of well-being, the Department can give us that and then we can work on exactly how important and how effective all of these things are. If you think about how this debate started at the beginning we all talked about our favourite brand of school. Free schools, academies you name it, different things. How do we assess which one is better? Well basically what was done was implicitly, but explicitly in some cases, its exam results or its OFSTED rankings.

Nobody talked about their impact on well-being. For a very good reason, you don't know. We don't have data, the only data we've got is the world's most embarrassing data of all which nobody has mentioned yet, which is the PISA data. The PISA data shows us that out of all of Europe our young people how -- have the lowest well-being of all, the OECD 38 countries where do we come? 37th. My favourite football's team mounted -- Manchester United aren't even that bad in the league.

This is dreadful and we should be ashamed of this, we should be doing something, we should You mention various things but you will never know unless you do something or unless you look at the assessment they work on, so the survey which Baroness Tyler mentioned looks at the measure of well-being and also the drivers of well-being, so it would look at physical exercise, nutrition, all of the things that most of the analysis suggests are really important, so that not only do we get data on the levels of well-being but we are actually able to do the research into what are the things that really make a difference, so then we start to work out all of the interventions you have mentioned we would be able to know which ones work and which ones don't, which is vital because without that the Treasury would say this is a waste of time, you can't prove to me this has made any difference, so please this is the most important thing of all, I am not going to give up on this, the Minister has very kindly talked to me about this and the Department have come up with some pretty half- hearted measures which do not actually solve the problem.

We need a consistent definition, 60% of schools, bizarrely, are doing something on this, they are all doing their own thing, the net result is they have all got different definitions, the data there coming up with is completely worthless, you can't compare, you can't analyse it, you can't do proper research with it, so we are stuck and wasting a lot of money. Please, let's have some common definitions, the Department are happy with that, there is no burden on teachers, in Manchester, they are doing this, it is optional for schools, teachers love it, they have opted in, schools love it, it is giving the really useful information and we are beginning to learn about what works and what does not, so please this, to me, is one of the most important things.

I could talk about the benefits there will be in Treasury terms. Treasury Green Book supplement on investment appraisal, when we did the sums with economics we worked out that if we were to match the well-being levels of kids in the Netherlands which we are not going to do, we are miles away, but if we were, it would be £80 billion a year. That is huge. No we might only get a fraction of that because these things take a while to move but the benefits of the potential benefits are huge.

If you think about it from a former permanent secretary to the Treasury if we solve these issues Baroness Tyler talked about the issues of children's belt mental health issues, to get someone in the wrong path they end up not being in a very good job, possibly going into the criminal system on benefits, fiscally absolutely disastrous. We get them on the right path, they are great income earners paying lots of tax which we at the Treasury love. So, there is a massive difference.

And the earlier you get these things, that is why the children's pass is so important. We measure adult well-being really effectively but we do not do it for children, so what I would say to the Minister is we are very happy to help and get involved in this Government prioritises growth. I hope and wish that we define it as the growth of well-being for the whole nation but they have not quite done that yet but if we care about children we want them to grow into healthy, happy, productive adults, then we need to start measuring their well- being and bizarrely enough if you look at the cohort studies people through their lives up to what is the best predictor of someone that has a worthwhile highly satisfied life in their own terms that they might not self identify as that it would be their well-being as a child and then they have got exam results stop these things matter hugely.

If we get this right it will be the most important thing we have done in this bill but at the moment there is no measurement. Thank you.
22:05
Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Labour)
-
-
Speaking to amendment 279 in my name, before doing so I would like to offer an apology to all noble Lords, and particularly the Noble Lord Holmes of Richmond in the Noble Lord Addington to whose amendments in the previous group I had added my name and fully intended to speak in support of it got my timings rather wrong and did not arrive here until the first three speeches had been made, so because of that felt it inappropriate to contribute to that particular grouping.

Again, I apologise. My Lords, amendment 479 would not mean a material change because it aims to make existing statutory guidance but grams of support around that guidance already in place. Previous Governments acknowledge concern in the worsening mental health among children and young people with the most significant policies stemming from the 2018 Department for Education and health social in emotive children and young people's mental health and that reference in the nonstatutory guidance that was issued in 2015 called old school approaches to mental health and well-being and I welcome the fact that the Labour Government has continued this commitment and the announcement from the Department of education indicated a rollout of the mental health support program will continue with additional funding committed this year and a full roll-out aiming for 100% of schools expected by the end of the academic year 2930.

As the guidance is nonstatutory there is a current iniquity of access to support from schools that we would like more help with improving health and well-being and most schools with their mental health lead will understand old school approaches but that person is often a current member of staff that may be juggling other roles such as a pastoral lead or a safeguard. But many schools may not have further access to a mental health support team until that program reaches its conclusion by 29/30.

Additionally, without statutory status, leaders and senior management in schools may be tempted to overlook this approach to previous schools ethos and environment when faced with understandably range of other issues and challenges presented by attendance and behaviour. The campaign of schools well-being partnership argues that by improving mental health and well-being of pupils attendance and behaviour can be positively affected. This looks at the foundational support for all pupils so that they can feel a true sense of belonging at a school and can thrive in that schools environment.

And whether or not the guidance is made statutory it certainly requires updating that according to 2021. With that in mind I want to elaborate on my amendment on whole school approaches. There is an old saying that you can't improve what you can't measure and is impact on what the Noble Lord was just saying but evidence in passing and can I just say Manchester United were not as bad as seventh in the league table, twice as bad as that. But what you can't measure you have to measure before you begin improvement and identifying measures and jobs for young people's mental health and well-being often the necessary data that schools can use to improve their environment, their to improve their environment, their teaching and their support.

We do welcome amendment 472, the whole school approach already has the tools to respond to that data. The current guidance needs to be strengthened for more robust information about this and updating the guidance and making statutory support schools in turning data interaction plans and action plans into improvement, although that will improve the mental health leads. Training for staff taking controls ended in March this year, perhaps winnable from the Minister will be able to see if and when that essential training will resume.

Access to mental health support in schools is a manifesto commitment last year and I commend the Government for wasting no time as that delivery has now begun also that is welcome, of course, and concern some mental health concerns teams have not been able to provide the support for specific cohorts of children requiring in some schools. Finally, I want to turn to wider aspects of the approach, the schools well-being partnership has recently published eight principles necessary, I will not list them due to the time just now but I very pleased at not that it of those principles are contained in Ofsted's new proposed inspection framework, so there is a very good chance that they will enter the mainstream and that will strengthen the effectiveness of the approaches that is necessary to ensure that the children and young people's mental health are taken seriously and that necessary support is properly resourced and that support is too important to be left at optional guidance and made statutory to ensure that those get the support that they deserve.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would rise to support the Noble

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would rise to support the Noble Lord whose name I have attached a whose amendment I have attached my name and I have to say that after
22:11
Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Conservative)
-
-
name and I have to say that after such a powerful speech probably one of the best speeches we have had at committee I was sort of waiting on the Minister to jump to her feet and see can bring this to an end and accept that amendment, it makes such consummate sense that what we need to do is underpin all the ambitious goals we have for the well-being of goals we have for the well-being of What can we do without data? We introduce policies that we do not know are effective or ineffective, it costs too much, we need data.

No one is arguing today that this data should be compulsory amongst all schools. This is voluntary. But I expect virtually every school I have ever visited in the city centre to want to do this, to be party to this, because there can be opportunities to benefit and some of us had the opportunity the other data listen to the CEO of Lego who was giving a presentation here in Parliament, Neil Christiansen. He was talking about the work that he was doing his company was doing, to work with young kids, five-year-olds in Slough and to get benefits at an early stage of life by participating in Lego and play rather than playing online.

And actually if you had the data and you had the evidence that companies like Lego were doing such good work there would be more and more schools wanting to do that. And to have that information available would be second to none, so I am confident this evening that the Minister is going to be holy supportive of this amendment. And just not on the points that have been made so far but on the reasons why what would that measurement that we are talking about do in terms of benefiting the well-being of young people? I would say it would promote children's mental health and with enhanced learning outcomes it will promote fairness.

It will strengthen accountability. It will build a healthier and fitter society and have long-term social benefits. Schools play an absolutely essential role in shaping future citizens and this information will help us. Well-being which improves social cohesion, improved productivity and public health will stop it would help us create a national policy to support the U.K.'s wider commitments to tackling not just mental health problems but physical health problems and challenges as well. And reduce pressure on the NHS.

It would support teachers. This information, this data would support staff, well-being measurement data can highlight systemic issues. Stress levels, workload concerns. It also affects staff and allows us to address those issues it can lead to healthier happier school communities which benefit both students and educators. And staff can use insights from well-being data to pastoral care and teaching were appropriately directed and more effectively directed as a problem. It can have a cultural shift in education and what we know is going on, the more we can do to have a cultural shift in education.

By that I mean embedding well-being measurement, reinforces the message that mental health and physical that mental health and physical health is an important issue and in fact for many ways for many children just as important as academic in chief movement. It normalises conversations about well-being, reduces stigma around mental health issues. In this shift helps prepare young people for life beyond school, fostering resilience, and emotional literacy. And I can just see the Minister is just about to get to her feet to accept this amendment.

But if in the event she is just going to post to reflect that she wants to hear a little bit more about how this amendment is going to benefit the bill, the implementation, her legacy in education I will say this : regular well-being measurement can help schools identify mental and physical health and well-being challenges before they escalate into serious issues. And early detection enables timely support, reduces long-term risks, such as school dropout, self-harm, and Preventative is more cost-effective for crisis management in health and social care systems.

They can be nobody in this chamber, nobody in this committee who disputes that by having the right data available and taking a really serious initiative to make sure that data is available to all of us who work in education cannot but be a good thing. I totally understand that the government might be resilient to saying this should not be compulsory. But this isn't an amendment which says it should be compulsory. This is an amendment that says it should be voluntary.

I believe many schools, many teachers, many heads any parents would want to avail themselves of this information and with this information I genuinely believe we can improve the well-being of all our children which is what this bill is all about.
22:17
Baroness Whitaker Portrait Baroness Whitaker (Labour)
-
-
Amendment 470, 479 briefly. Very warmly I won't try to resume. There is a form of civil servant I recognise their strengths, quite part of the intrinsic value of enabling happiness which I confess is my underlying reason. Well-being has instrumental advantages for society, it's the new late motivation, energy and concentration, particularly for demoralised alienating children such as those from minority ethnic groups who experience constant prejudice and belittling among others, it encourages them on to a pathway of achievement.

We know that children from disadvantaged backgrounds and on free school meals are more likely to have lower well-being so our care leaders. In our credential iced society improving motivation and raising achievement can reduce the disturbing proportion of needs slot aimlessly onto route 2 on employment rights. I think well-being is allied to a sense of self-worth, after all if you feel your world does not think enough of you to value your happiness you may well feel that you are not worth it yourself.

It is this absence of sense of self worth, self respect that I noticed most strikingly among criminals I met when I was a magistrate, and also among the children at risk of delinquency I used to run a club for. Even among a few so-called normal children and I did some teaching and more recently in encounters with embittered adults whose childhood had surrounded them with prejudice and discrimination. Children can be resilient, can triumph over adversity if they are motivated enough, the erosion of the ability to cope which suffering and the absence of well-being causes is clearly undermined and increasing number.

Well-being has been notably increased by the right kind of design and architecture in schools and particularly by music education including singing. There is good evidence for that. Well-being needs to be measured systematically in all schools. This would do much to start embedding us at stable culture of resilience and happiness in our schools. So I very much hope the Minister will accept these amendments.
22:19
Baroness Ramsey of Wall Heath Portrait Baroness Ramsey of Wall Heath (Labour)
-
-
I rise to speak in support of amendment 502 YG in the name of this Baroness Morgan of Cotes and other noble Lords. Your chips may well have seen the health briefing from the Natasha allergy research The honour of being a Parliamentary ambassador for those of you haven't had the chance to read it let me share some brief highlights given the hour. Two children per class suffer from food allergies on average, if you are allergic reaction to milk cheese nuts or anything else triggers and an electric shock you need an immediate dose of adrenaline acted with an EpiPen also known as an autoinjector.

Half of all England schools haven't got one, that's 10,000 of them. Two thirds of teachers haven't had any formal training on what to do if a pupil suffers from that anaphylactic reaction. Or shock. In circumstances in which the buildings outside the home where children are most likely to have an an eclectic shock unsurprisingly since they spend six hours a day five days a week 38 weeks per year there. I am confining my remarks on this amendment to particularly in support of all elements relating to EpiPen /autoinjector is but I support all of the amendment.

You can see noble Lords from my comments above that requiring all schools not just half tavern EpiPen and someone who knows how to use it has the potential to save lives and reassure countless parents that their children will be safe at school. In fact you might be wondering why so many schools are completely unprepared for this sort of emergency. Of course schools have got a vital day job to do, it's hard enough teaching maths to children who aren't interested, please insert your own least favourite lesson if gently say that all of which is being asked at this point is that an EpiPen is in the school reception and there is someone who knows one end from the other.

If you think I'm joking I'm afraid no as a matter of fact there has indeed been one in incident at least of a member of staff injecting themselves with adrenaline rather than the people in shock. Another argument which might be used against the amendment is that surely it's the responsibility of pupils at risk to carry their own epi-pens and their parents to make sure they do. Which of course is true, but I imagine that the Minister would probably agree that it is not realistic to assume that every single child will follow the rules every single day without fail.

The evidence shows the pupils are most at risk when they are 15 to 17 years old, precisely the age when they are most likely to take risks. I've spoken in this House about this issue before as the mother of a now 17-year-old people who has suffered with two episodes of anaphylactic shock. Yes she has to Abbey pens in her bag and yes I do make sure, try to make sure that she always does but just like any other mother I know that things don't always go to plan and I live with that fear just like so many others.

10 years ago shortly after my daughters first and eclectic shock her doctor at the Avellino London Children's Hospital just across the river asked for my phone after her emergency treatment. And to my astonishment he took photos of my pale limp and silent daughter she lay in my arms. He explained to us that we should print out these photos and give them to her grandparents, her friends parents and anyone else was a little bit doubting that severe peanut allergy is really a thing.

And dangerous will top and keep one for her first boyfriend in years to come. So that everyone who might treat allergies, severe allergies would understand that this can happen, this is what can happen and the adrenaline in epi-pens is life- saving. It is well worth requiring schools to keep them and for them to know how to use them, they save lives. lives.
22:24
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
-
-
I will be fairly brief. I mainly want to commend the government on the restraint it has shown in this bill in the clauses relating to mental health and well-being. Despite the bills title there is a welcome absence of clauses that imply that well-being and activities that promote it are separate from or even antithetical to good in -- education in reality they are strongly correlated. For most children well-being is a likely outcome of being well taught, well supported, discovering and developing their wider interests and forming good relationships with peers and with adults, so really developing a sense of belonging.

Furthermore I think there is a growing recognition that spending too much time talking about mental illness to young people who are not ill can be counter-productive. We may lead -- need less mental health awareness training in schools not more for those advocating more universal mental health interventions, in their amendments, I recommend reading the findings published by DfE earlier this year. On the effectiveness of several school mental health awareness interventions. These tests have established programs found that they didn't reduce emotional difficulties in the short-term and in the longer term appeared to be associated with greater emotional difficulties and Those who have been around in education long enough may also remember the evaluation of the then popular seal program, I think it was social and emotional aspects of learning.

This study of a program for primary schools not only showed that the positive outcomes expected didn't materialise, but also that there was an unwelcome side-effect in that to paraphrase, it taught the mean kids to be better bullies using the techniques of emotional manipulation that the program taught them. These findings are a valuable reminder that sometimes less is more. A word of warning. Much of what is proposed and these amendments is hugely well- intentioned stop but I am particularly nervous about some of the ideas around measurement.

If we don't want measurement processes in themselves to harm children, we shouldn't collect data by constantly asking children who are not unwell about their well-being. And especially about their negative emotions. I've seen so many dreadful examples in schools where even very young children are constantly prompted to express emotions and to say, invited to say that they are experiencing negative emotions, and you can see the point where they start to believe they are sad or worried or afraid where this hadn't even occurred to them.

Nothing could fit the phrase, throw the baby out with the bathwater more accurately than to make children unhappy through well-intentioned measurement processes. I therefore urge the government to prioritise advice from expert clinicians in this field and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to allow schools to do only what... One thing because I think we

**** Possible New Speaker ****

One thing because I think we agree, you mentioned all the things about where you have been able to talk about the evidence because talk about the evidence because there was data, just to remind you, this amendment talking about one this amendment talking about one annual survey, is not asking people

**** Possible New Speaker ****

annual survey, is not asking people every couple of minutes how they are doing alright, just to be absolutely clear. Children are very frequently

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Children are very frequently surveyed from different directions adding another one may actually be adding to an extensive load of adding to an extensive load of surveys that they are already completing, the wider point is that there are many ways of measuring there are many ways of measuring indirectly that if we want to measure we should look for indirect routes that don't involve constantly routes that don't involve constantly asking children to self-assessed. We asking children to self-assessed. We should make sure that schools are doing only what is genuinely likely to be helpful for children and the to be helpful for children and the government should resist the urge to Lord -- launched crowdpleasing but ultimately waste for even harmful
22:28
Baroness Sater Portrait Baroness Sater (Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

initiatives. Arrives to speak in support of Amendment 472 and everything that Amendment 472 and everything that has been said by Lord O'Donnell and Lord Moynihan passionately and I can't agree with what has just been said. I frequently attach on themes of well-being especially in regards to sport, physical activity, mental health, inclusion and financial security. The term well-being means different things to different people, if we don't define and measure it consistently we leave it to drift and risk missing the opportunity to improve children's lives in meaningful and measurable ways.

We all recognise that young people today face mounting pressures whether it's increased anxiety or reduced physical activity. Yet we lack a consistent national framework for measuring how children are really doing. Not just academically, but emotionally and physically as well. That's why look forward to hearing how initiatives like the be well program are progressing. Be well is an example of what can be achieved when universities, charities and local authorities come together to prioritise children's wellbeing. It can offer valuable lessons on how data gathered and shared sensitively can inform targeted support drive better outcomes.

Anything that improves children's wellbeing and strengthens the evidence base behind policy has my full support. This amendment as we have heard proposes an annual voluntary and confidential national survey. It would equip schools, local authorities and policymakers with the data they need to understand and respond to what young people are really experiencing. Better data leads to better policy Youth sports trust chief executive Ali Oliver back in 2023 said fewer than half the children in the UK meet the Chief Medical Officers guidelines, for the minimum recommended activities.

She goes on to say, this is contributing to our nation were too many children are missing out, have poor well-being and lack a sense of belonging. She added, the evidence is clear, unhappy and unhealthy children do not learn. Well-being is closely linked to additional attainment, educational attainment, when children feel better and more supported they are much more likely to engage in learning and reach their full potential. Understanding that connection and measuring is Amendment would be innovative and evidence driven, broad drivers of well-being such as physical activity, nutrition, and access to family see culture.

These are all important components for building resilience and purpose and this proposal ensures that the data is shared meaningfully that schools and public bodies and not analysis. Everyone healthier and happier children we need to have this national framework I do hope we can make some progress today.
22:31
Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
-
-
Arise to amendment to YG and pass on the apologies that they have in fact had to go but agreed to move the amendment on behalf of Ernest Prentice that can take part in the bill and in some way it is to improve safety in schools and this marks the campaign of Helen Blythe, the inspirational, following the tragic death of her son Benedict in 2021 and he was only five. At an inquest last month we concluded that Benedict's death was avoidable and caused by the accidental ingestion and the procedures in place to protect him and outlines almost 20% of allergic reactions take place in schools as we now know they do not necessarily have the implements or a plan for training in place and all of these protective measures on a statutory footing with the classroom with allergies and they have worked tirelessly to address this to ensure no child is ever lost in such a tragic and unavoidable way.

I also want to pay tribute to the work of Alicia Kearns, MP of the Stanford of which I am connected. Helen Blythe is her constituent. The current Government guidelines mention allergies as only one of food and one link to an anaphylaxis charity. The key is that staff and policy. The Government would prefer any change to be by way of guidance and that does not give the guarantees necessary to be made to today's alternates amendment. Between 1998 and 2018, 66 children died from allergic reactions.

There are 680,000 pupils in schools that have allergies. That is one or two per classroom according to the foundation of that report from March 2024. At a time when the Department for Education is rightly focused on the attendance crisis, children missed half a million days of education due to allergies each year. These adrenaline auto injections are lifesavers the benefit foundation estimates that only £5 million for the rollout in English schools. A similar campaign to put defibrillators into every single school and that was done, so why not put these prepends and proper training and policy in place? So I do welcome the departments engagement at this time and the time for action is now.

for action is now. With respect to amendment 462, the importance of the point made by Baroness Tyler, reducing the pressures, the family courts are pressures, the family courts are being frustrated as I know from recent experience and indeed reaching necessary decisions, long- term decisions about future for term decisions about future for children when told week by week that they are waiting for an appointment and then told that they are waiting and then told that they are waiting for an assessment and then told that they are waiting for a recommended treatment to take place and if treatment to take place and if amendment 462 children will benefit, their parents will benefit, and the courts will benefit underparts are courts will benefit underparts are being criticised and the problems contribute to those delays.
22:35
22:36
Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
-
-
dedicated mental health practices in dedicated mental health practices in schools. I feel myself one of the problems we have got is there is too problems we have got is there is too much emphasis on mental illness, much emphasis on mental illness, mental health, in education at the moment. And actually the awareness is taking up too much time of school life and for young people and it is life and for young people and it is basically becoming a problem.

If you actually look at what is going on in actually look at what is going on in schools at that moment there are indeed endless numbers of organisations with responsibility organisations with responsibility for well-being. Mental health leads, support teams, emotional literacy, support systems, mental health first aiders, counsellors, well-being aiders, counsellors, well-being officers and if you go into any school these are covered with more school these are covered with more information about mental illness, mental health and so on, everywhere mental health and so on, everywhere you go, yet despite this, the mental health industrial complex, the well-being of pupils continues to deteriorate, that is what we are told.

Mental health problems and diagnosis is rising stop at the same time as all the awareness initiatives are taking place. I think this at least needs some think this at least needs some investigation. I sometimes think, sorry, this thing about something going wrong is what I would like to investigate because it seems to me that these amendments just assume that we should carry on doing the same and more of the same and as with the noble Baroness I actually do think that there are real critical thinking that needs to be done around some of the awareness campaigns, so I want to challenge the idea that schools are actually the vehicle for tackling the undoubted spiralling prices of happiness among young people and I also think it is important that we time all that from the crisis.

There is actually a serious problem for mental health support for mental health concerns of the NHS and I would like that to be taken up. That is very different to the kind of discussion we are having here about schools which is at mental distress that become such a problem for all of the discussions in schools. I tend to agree with Tony Blair on this possibly the only time when he has said you have got to be careful about encouraging people to think that they have got some sort of condition rather than simply confronting the challenges.

And I do think that is true and I think that starting with children we are encouraging people to internalise that narrative of medical explanations and the psychological vocabulary in terms of adopting an identity of mental fragility that is not doing them any good. And I think that can then create an increasing cohort of young people and their parents demanding official diagnosis or intervention or support at school. Doctor Alistair Santos, a neuropsychiatrist at the board in his new book mental health in an age of overdiagnosis says it has become crucial to reassess what constitutes mental illness so that we can decide what needs are treated with the resources and that way in the NHS and once the NHS is under a scenario of referrals and then says in the State services such as schools are straining to the point of dysfunction in relation to this particular issue and I tend to agree with him, so whereas I admired the passionate intervention by the Noble Lord O'Donnell in terms of a call for measurement and evidence, one of the problems is IM not entirely sure that we know what we are measuring.

There is absolutely no clear definition of well-being to be measured. The psychiatric profession while making the point about the definitions of what constitutes mental illness are now contained, there are arguments about them, what are you measuring? And this definition I think is becoming a problem in schools. And the council of Lucy green in her recent report considers that mental illness in schools is leading to a kind of diagnostic inflation where pupils compare notes on what they have got and go to different professionals and ask what they have got and so on and so forth and it can anything create a source of social inciting that young to see their ups and downs with mental health that can be demoralising and counter-productive.

There is no doubt that too many children and young people are not thriving mentally and emotionally in the UK today and I would like to have that discussion but I do not necessarily think that well-being in the way of mental health is the way to do it. I definitely think that the schools are not the place to solve it, so just to finish a lot of that well-being initiatives, a lot of the councils, a lot of the therapeutic interventions encourage young people to look at life through the subjective filter of their own feelings and anxieties.

That, in turn, is likely to lead inward to some self-absorbed children. The Department of education in schools is to introduce new generations to the wonders of the millennia of knowledge that is outside of their experience. That takes them outside of themselves. That is what school is for. That is what teachers are good at. It is not just about gaining credentials and the aspects of it but a brilliant novel, then authors explain the history of our world, evolution, if you get into that, you forget your troubles.

You are constantly talking to the counsellor about your troubles and yourself, and endlessly thinking of one's own well-being, it is boring, demoralising, insulting, and it is enough to make everybody depressed including foot young. I think that it is very important that schools do not get completely obsessed with this issue, I fear that they have and it has made matters worse.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In rising to follow the Noble Lady baroness Fox I did want to reassure the Noble Lady that the World Health Organisation has a very clear definition of well-being. And clear definition of well-being. And just to briefly quote from that it is a positive state experienced by individuals in society, all being individuals in society, all being encompasses quality-of-life and the ability of people in society to contribute to the world with a sense contribute to the world with a sense of meaning and purpose.

This is not about self focus, this is about how people are able to be in position to people are able to be in position to contribute. And it is very clear that they go on to say that society will be determined by the extent to
22:43
22:44
22:44
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
-
-
to do much better within our society and picking up on the points made by the Noble Lady baroness that I am the Noble Lady baroness that I am afraid I entirely disagree with the noble Ladies contribution if we look at the example of the Noble Lord commenting that the Dutch score particular highly with Denmark with particular highly with Denmark with those recent figures on well-being I those recent figures on well-being I would just look at a publication from a few years ago the Department from a few years ago the Department of education published that notes how we measure this is the Dutch system.

Not only academic achievement but also the well-being and involvement of proceedings. I and involvement of proceedings. I could reassure the Noble Lord or Donald that we have referred to the Donald that we have referred to the study a number of times because I am afraid I would like to raise it every time in the interests of the every time in the interests of the House progress I do not but every time we are told how would progress our schools have made because look our schools have made because look at the exam results.

I say look at at the exam results. I say look at the state of the well-being of our pupils. And particularly to the Noble Lady Spielman, if we only measure the exam results, that is what we are going to judge our schools on, and that is what we have doing and that is what has gotten us into this position right now at this moment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Me I just point out that Ofsted back when I was chief expect took personal development including personal development including children's wellbeing very seriously including the judgements there and I have never suggested nor what I suggest that academic outcomes were

**** Possible New Speaker ****

suggest that academic outcomes were the only thing that mattered for children. In responding to the Noble Lady accounts because a former municipal accounts because a former municipal governor and I do have my own opinions of Ofsted back and to put on record the Green party wishes to abolish Ofsted, so that is where I am coming from. However, what I actually acknowledge, one more thing because it is important that we do end 402Y5G about this I so went to end 402Y5G about this I so went to an event with the live foundation where I learned about this issue and it is crucially important that the it is crucially important that the work of that foundation absolutely needs to be acknowledged.

However, needs to be acknowledged. However, what I really rose to speak to is to amendments that have not yet been amendments that have not yet been introduced. The first is 50 to be in my name kindly back to the Noble Lord farmer and the Noble Lady Baroness Willis. And also going to Baroness Willis. And also going to speak to 502Y in the name that was tabled by the Noble Lady Baroness tabled by the Noble Lady Baroness Willis and backed by Baroness Palma and Baroness Allcock and apologises greatly that she is unable to introduce her own amendment like I have just given up on I did have a train to catch that I have not given up on that the Noble Lady did have to catch a train, so she has departed.

Both of these amendments seek to focus on the importance of nature in the physical spaces in and around school buildings and to promote active school-based learning Far too often this is seen as a nice to have, as an additional something that schools that have the resources to get money from parents to plant trees make nice gardens et cetera. It is a great pity that Baroness Willis is not here because this is something that she has literally written the book on. I'm sure many noble Lords already know the title of her book is good nature, the new science of how nature improves our health.

The two amendments just to highlight the different between them, my amendment 502B says that the Secretary of State has to promote, has a duty to promote schools, access to nature and says one hour of access to nature each week for every pupil. This is something there is bountiful evidence on. Baroness Willis amendment is much more limited but still very important, to conduct a review in the benefits of nature- based learning to children's health and well-being. I have vast amounts of notes which noble Lords will be pleased to know I'm not going to read out, but I think it's really worth focusing on just one study that Baroness Willis highlights, this is from 2015 on 3,000 primary aged children in four schools in Barcelona.

These are very standard Barcelona. These are very standard urban schools. The test scores of children who were just looking out the window at Greenspace were better than children but did not have just the view of Greenspace. We are not talking here about forest schools, these are normal inner-city schools and the addition of trees and green infrastructure in the playground has real impact on the exam results. More than that, there is also significant evidence about improvements in antisocial behaviour and levels of mental health, teenage anxiety and even reduce truancy, something that noble Lords, the government very concerned about.

This second part of her amendment very briefly is about nature-based skills. In other parts of the economy when we've been looking planning infrastructure bill we are focusing on the need to look after green spaces in our communities. Who's going to do the work of looking after that? It's crucial that we have the training. I feel guilty and not, Baroness Willis has given me a great more information but in the interests of time I will sit down now and urge noble Lords to read the noble Ladies book.
22:49
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley Portrait Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Labour)
-
-
I want to very briefly support amendment 502 YG and in doing so declare my interest as the chief officer of the Natasha allergy research foundation. Regrettably we do have an education system completely unprepared for the growing numbers of food allergic children in the UK. The safeguarding standards vary widely from school to school. Recent incidents do underscore the urgent need for thorough staff training and well implanted allergen management policies was to food allergy - related deaths and all of them in the most part are preventable.

While uncommon do tragically occur in school. As Baroness Berridge noted, just a few months ago at the inquest into the death of Benedict Blythe age of five which concluded, as we discuss this amendment I know Benedict is in our hearts and minds as is his mother Heather who is the driver behind amendment by voting YG which is a critical edition to the children well-being bill. Of course there are excellent examples of food allergy management and some of our schools, however with two children in every classroom having food allergy and one in five allergic reactions of food occurring in school, too many schools lack policies for effective allergy management, they are inadequately trained and there is also a lack of understanding around allergy in our schools.

All of which impact on children's attendance and puts a child at risk. At the Natasha foundation we regularly hear from parents about schools who ignore the request of reasonable adjustments or were still dismissive about a child allergy. These type of assistance challenges faced by thousands of allergy families across the country and they really reinforce the allergy should be treated with the same seriousness and attention as other medical conditions and school settings. That's why the Natasha foundation we offer free practical resources to help teachers create inclusive and safe environments for children with food allergies will stop charities and foundations cannot deliver change alone.

The government needs to do more to help schools and early years settings be better equipped to manage food allergies from improved training to safer food management practices. This amendment will achieve that. It will ensure all schools have proper staff training, effective policies in place, data, yes data Lord O'Donnell, on allergic reactions which is woefully lacking, and spare adrenaline auto injectors. There are very few chronic conditions that can take a child from perfectly fine to unconscious in 30 minutes, but food allergies and anaphylaxis is one of those, who can disagree with life- saving medication being on site, quick and easily accessible to save a child's life? Who can disagree with that? I look forward to Baroness Smith's reply.
22:52
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
-
-
Galleries late and I have my name on some of these amendments. Simply to say that the Royal paediatrics and child health has highlighted the fact that around 16% of children aged five to 16 now have mental health disorders. The AMS can't cope with this, the amendment in the name of Baroness Tyler certainly is trying to plug that large gap, that whole, I'm also would remind the House that it has been estimated that in every class on average there is a child who has been briefed of a parent or sibling.

It is not trivial trauma, that really major. They need support they need help. In terms of collecting data, it's absolutely essential that we know what we are doing, it must be using validated measures have been properly evaluated so that they are actually measuring what people think they are measuring. And they don't contain leading questions and so on. Then there is quality of data, it allows schools to understand whether it's improving or not. Very simply, I have the pleasure of chairing the interest of chairing the Samson technologies sixth report on allergy, I would strongly underline allergy, I would strongly underline all of the comments made stop we had during that enquiry about children being bullied by other children putting peanuts in their pockets, and about staff sometimes confusing anaphylaxis with panic attacks because they hadn't had training.

It's a very very simple measure to train staff and to make sure that they can access an EpiPen. With that I just hope the government will adopt the suggestions in these amendments.
22:54
22:56
22:57
Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
-
-
I declare an interest as chair of sport Wales was strongly support the amendment for seven to name of Lord O'Donnell and agri is one of the most important things we can do. At sport Wales we carry out school sports survey, we had responses of 116,000 children who gave their opinion on sport and well-being and don't only use it to focus the funding but to help them be part of the solution to think about how their well-being might be improved.

I have my name on amendment 500 and I would make a plea for physical literacy and given it the same status as literacy and numeracy. We know if we teach children good physical literacy skills and helps their mental well-being. The reason their mental well-being. The reason we need to do this is we are in a time of crisis UK active data shows that we got a generation of children who are more likely to die before their parents. Because of inactivity. In a press release issued by the Department of working on 18 June, 2025 they stated that one in eight young people are not in education, employment or training.

I realise this is cutting across age groups and looking at some thing different, but we have up to 93,000 different, but we have up to 93,000 young people between 16 and 24 on Personal Independence Payments. This is not to criticise the government, this system is not sustainable in this current format and we can't just keep pushing young people onto benefits. We have to do something differently and I do think this group amendments are part of the solution to helping young people. In a bill that has well-being in the title it would make sense that we measure well-being.
22:59
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
The hour is late so I will be very brief. I think this group of amendments has brought out the best in your Lordships, I think why people have spoken on each of these amendments I found truly caring. Schools do have, I stupidly perhaps earlier on was saying how much Baroness Fox made me consider more closely particular issues but I have to say on this issue Baroness Fox I think you are wrong. The most important thing for me in schools not just children learning it's about how they learn about themselves and their well-being and their mental health is so important.

The sooner at an earlier age if you can get the feeling of a sense of well-being any mental health problems being sorted then they are learning will accelerate, not as you suggest. We just know that about ourselves, when we feel good about something we give our best don't we? I know I do, if I feel down and miserable and things aren't going right for me I don't give my best. It's important to get mental health issues sorted. I look back and in the days when we had, before COVID when does seem to be plenty of when does seem to be plenty of provision in schools, if there was a people with perhaps a behavioural difficulty or a learning difficulty, you could get the school psychologist in straight away and the problem would be identified and support would be given, that's why Baroness Tyler's amendment is so Baroness Tyler's amendment is so Again, issues like epi-pens I remember going to the LibDem conference and I was with two friends and unbeknown to me one person had an allergy to peanuts.

She would eat a peanut, there was a bowl of peanuts on the bar, and just the fumes of that peanuts, she collapsed. Her friend quickly opened her bag, got out the epi-pen, stuck it in her thigh, and she was all right. And it made me think, I think 12 years ago at school we got a B pendant, all the staff got training, the number of grapefruits that we stamped with epi-pens was quite amazing, but it made me realise how important an issue like this is.

And we did the same of course we have been reminded with defibrillators in schools and again that has been life changing for those pupils that sadly have been in those situations. I have been in those situations. I finally want to just remind myself the primary class it was so important to me that children learn so much from that table but finally I just think this issue of well- being is so important. And I found your contribution inspiring.

It made me think. Baroness Bennett is right. We celebrate and we did used to celebrate how we have climbed up the tables on maths and English, literacy and numeracy. And we are declined in children's wellbeing. I hope that the pitch that Lord Moynihan gave the Minister about how this would be a brave career move for you might have resonated with you and we might see some movement on this.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This group of amendments that we have heard focuses on the important have heard focuses on the important issue of well-being and the rules that schools could play for in that.
23:03
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
that schools could play for in that. This needs to be seen in the mental health service that is currently struggling to keep up demand and where rating lists are all too often extremely long. Particularly with the rise of reports of mental ill- health since COVID. But schools rarely have extensive guidance from the Department on how to support both pupils and staff with mental well-being and as the mental health hub for resources. The previous Government introduced that rollout of mental health leads in our schools.

My understanding is the current Government has continued with this. I am really not convinced that all duties and guidance as proposed an amendment for six to end 479 are the answer. Although I do accept the department made by the Noble Lady Baroness Tyler by a range of qualifications that we might want to have on the team. We have some major red flags in relation to children's mental health and well- being. We use smartphones, social media, and the extraordinary amount of time for children and young people to spend on their screens.

I would urge once again the Government to address the root causes of isolation, loneliness, and disconnection. In our society. Especially for young people rather than introducing this. I am sympathetic to the spirit of amendment 582B and 582Y and the names of the noble Baroness Lady Bennett, respectively. Many schools that can offer this in primary but I do think this is something that the school leaders need to decide on. As the Noble Lady mentioned we did introduce that national nature Park with an emphasis on schools and areas with fewer know Green Spaces Bill die was pleased when I looked at the website for that national education Park last night there are now 3,000 schools that have signed up to the scheme that will give those children not only the opportunity to spend more time in nature but also to go about a range of relevant skills including data capture and analysis.

Amendment 472 in the name of the Noble Lord O'Donnell would establish the well- being measurement program. In the Noble Lord would make a powerful case to the approach, although I do note the concerns raised by my Noble Friend and the suggestion that perhaps indirect measures might achieve some of the same ends. There are a lot of questions put to the national behaviour survey regarding well-being, including when asked about happiness, how worthwhile people's life feels, levels of anxiety, loneliness, bullying and more.

And I do think there is a case for looking at a range of data that is collected and if it does not meet some of the objectives that the Noble Lord set out perhaps we could dispense with some of the protection that is more useful. I was very struck when an office by the approach that is taken, you can't laugh at me at this hour, but was taken in Indonesia, in relation to surveys that are built into their equivalent of Steadman framework and are able to identify very quickly schools where pupils were well-being are significantly better or worse and that allows us to learn from the very best and address the weaknesses.

I will not speak to amendment 496 unless someone tells me I should because I do not think me I should because I do not think that amendment was moved. And the noble Baroness Berridge and the Noble Lady Baroness Kennedy, both reminded us of the case of Baroness life and whether or not as parents we can all recognise the heartbreak of the death of the child, particularly where a debt is avoidable and particularly by the noble Baroness Ramsay rightly pointed out the wider and more prevalent issue of anxiety for parents and children at risk of an anaphylactic shock.

I would just like to express my thanks to all the organisations in this area that have contributed to improving the response of schools to managing the safety of pupils, particularly the Benedict Blythe foundation for their work on the schools allergy code and the Natasha foundation for their work on the allergy school and I hope very much that the noble Baroness the Minister will be able to address the concerns raised in that amendment. that amendment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, this Government is committed to improving mental health support for all children and young support for all children and young people, helping pupils to achieve their drive in education. We also agree that all children and young people should have the opportunity people should have the opportunity to understand and connect with the to understand and connect with the natural world and recognise the importance of supporting pupils with allergies. Turning to amendment 462 first tabled by the Noble Lady first tabled by the Noble Lady Baroness Tyler, with respect to the dedicated mental health practitioner, this Government has announced we will expand mental announced we will expand mental health support teams from 52% of pupils and learners at the start of April 2025 to 100% by 2029/30.

This will ensure that all schools have access to NHS trained and supported mental health practitioners. Additionally, funding of £13 million is also agreed in piloting enhancements to this service to support more serious needs. For instance, for young people that have experienced trauma with neuro
23:10
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-
experienced trauma with neuro diversity or with eating disorders. And we will want to look at the experience of those pilots and how they can be extended. The issue, of course, as other noble Lords have identified, rests particularly in the numbers of mental health staff available to deal with the most acute needs of young people. This amendment will not look at the provision of mental health professionals, although this cupboard has committed to increase them by 8 1/2 thousand, but switch responsibility from the NHS to schools.

Schools provide a range of classroom support, including counselling, but managing mental health officials is not their job. Mental health support teams benefit from being recruited, trained, clinically supervised and having outcomes monitored by the NHS and there is good evidence of their effectiveness. Turning to amendment 472 tabled by the Noble Lord Donald that aims to establish a national children's wellbeing regiment program, this movement is committed to supporting all children and young to supporting all children and young people to achieve and thrive.

To help us do this, we do need to understand how our children and young people are feeling. There is immense value in schools measuring understanding and taking action on the factors that influence whether there pupils attend and achieve and thrive and we know that 60% of schools already come up with some type of well-being measurement voluntarily. We agreed with the Noble Lord that the measurement should remain voluntary for schools. However, we do not agree that a centrally administered survey costing millions of pounds a year on the Spending Review is necessarily the right way forward.

We believe in measurement, but for schools to choose to do measurement it is important that the tool they use is relevant to them and that they can be issued with the results were not used for accountability in an overly simplistic way. We recognise the need, therefore, for there to be consistency of that measurement and that is why the Government has already initiated a program of work with similar names. With providers being under our voice campaign and with the education sector. This will involve setting standardised questions for schools to ask pupils, including about their well-being, enabling benchmarking in schools.

We go further and provide non-statutory guidance including tools and resources to support schools to measure with a more consistent and evidence-based way and, more importantly, to act on the findings with partners to improve outcomes for children. We are confident that the adoption of a standard set of questions across the sector and publication of operational guidance will better enable schools to share data with one another and local partners to facilitate them for benchmarking and joined up community action. I hear the noble Lords point about national collection did the long-term we also explore whether the House data can be collected centrally to inform national policy.

In the meantime to further amplify the voices of young people, we have committed to publishing an annual data release containing related national survey data on people's experiences in school, including their sense of belonging, enjoyment, safety and so I now turn to amendment 479 tabled by the Noble Lord Watson which would require statutory guidance for schools on the approaches to mental health and well-being most of the Government already provides guidance, supporting schools to put in place for school approaches whilst not itself statutory this supports a range of statutory duties in relation to teaching, safeguarding, behaviour, and special educational needs and disabilities, which are key to identifying need and working with external services to meet that need.

These existing statutory duties, the support already available to schools, and the work they have committed to on the framework measurement and added data collection that I have set out in response to amendment 472 will taken together provide a sound basis for all schools to put in place whole school approaches and secure the support that there pupils need. And I will write to the Noble Lord about the specific point relating to the training and the Government approach to providing additional support for schools to do this.

Turning to amendment 500 tabled by the Noble Lord Hobbs of Richmond, which would require newly published standards for schools in England on physical and mental well-being which was referenced by the Noble Lady Baroness Grey-Thompson schools already have specific requirements to teach about physical and mental well-being, which is set out in the physical education National Curriculum and statutory guidance for relationships sex and health education. OFSTED Mac inspects the delivery of these requirements, this approach allows schools to develop their own approaches to supporting physical and mental well-being which reflect very different circumstances Turning to amendment 502 why table by Baroness Willis of Summertown town and introduced by Baroness Bennett which seeks to require the government to review and report on the benefits of nature based learning to children's health and well-being, we agreed that all young people should have an opportunity to access, learn about and connect with nature.

The national nature Park as the noble Lady Baroness Barran has said provides these opportunities and support overcome barriers to nature-based learning. I was very pleased that it was internationally recognised at the G 20 education meeting in Brazil last year that I attended. We are also working with University of Oxford to assess the impact of nature-based programs and secondary aged children and young people's mental health and well- being I'm happy to share this with the noble Baroness once published. The Curriculum and Assessment Review raises the important issue of climate education and its interim report as well as learning about climate change want more children to learn about and have respect for the natural world, we will go further finalising and consulting on the proposed natural history GCSE subject content.

After the review concludes. In relation to amendment five OTB table by Baroness Bennett, I have already highlighted the government's commitment to enabling more young people to learn about the natural world in greater depth and how it is supporting this. However schools themselves are best placed to determine how to use these and other opportunities to meet their ambitions. For their pupils are given their curriculum and resources and their local environment. We don't think that Whitehall should try to plan schools timetables for them.

Lastly turn to amendment 502 YG tabled in the name of Baroness Morgan of Cotes which seeks to introduce mandatory and allergy safety policies all schools in England. As others have, I do recognise the tragedy of the death of Benedict Blythe and the work of his family in promoting this issue and the other organisations which have worked so hard to bring this important issue to the attention of us as legislators and to the government. When parents send their children to school it is only right and natural that they expect them to be kept safe.

For parents of children with allergies there is understandably an additional level of concern. We recognise the importance of supporting pupils with allergies and we will make improvements as part of our plans improvements as part of our plans for a more inclusive mainstream send -- SEND system. We have publicly committed to reviewing the statutory guidance and supporting pupils with medical conditions at school and propose open consultation in the autumn to test the changes needed to reduce the current risks within the system.

The measures to support children with allergies proposed in this amendment could be achieved without requiring primary legislation and we will consider how we might take them forward as part of this consultation. I hope after this wide-ranging debate in this response noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments. to withdraw their amendments.
23:19
Baroness Tyler of Enfield Portrait Baroness Tyler of Enfield (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
I thank the noble Lady the Minister for her response to this as she said wide-ranging indeed interesting I think you could even say, debate. Interesting in a certain sense. In terms of the tone of the debate we had I simply reflect that there was a time not so long ago perhaps a few years ago where if you were talking about children's mental health and well- being in this chamber, there would be a certain sort of debate, there would probably be a general consensus about the problem and what you are trying to achieve, there would probably be some disagreement about the best way of getting there.

I have to say that is no longer the case, as with so many things in this current world this whole issue seems to have become highly polarised and contested in a way which I personally find frankly pretty unhelpful. But we are where we are, we can all quote our favourite bit of evidence were our favourite research report that backs up our own worldview, but frankly unless you are looking at these things in the round it rarely takes you much further forward.

I was pleased to hear Baroness Barran actually in her remarks talk about the need to look carefully at the root causes of mental health, I thought that was a very helpful perspective. For me personally I think just pretending that a problem doesn't exist rarely helps to actually address it, I do not recognise these schools which have turned into some sort of industrial complex of mental health with an excess of mental health professionals, all I can say is the schools I have visited are not like that, and they told me what an issue mental health is and how they want extra, more help and support.

That's all I'm going to say in general terms. Just responding to a couple of the points on the amendment, I was in my amendment moderately encouraged to hear the Minister talk about these pilots, looking at these enhanced levels of support for Mental Health Support Teams, that's exactly what I was trying to get at in my amendment about the missing in my amendment about the missing middle as I put it, it is about the skill missing. I think there is a legitimate question to look at there and I hope in some way we can return to that point at report stage because from the people I have talked to practitioners on the frontline, it is important.

I will just end by talking about, I really feel, I thought there was such a strong consensus, no not consensus, but there were many people in the chamber he could see very clearly the case that was being mounted for a national well-being survey, a voluntary survey, no one is forced to do it, absolutely none of it being any part of the accountability system of schools, there is something there that those schools could have and use. I think it's an incredibly important, having that data and being able to use that data I think is absolutely fundamental if we are going to increase the well- being of children and young people in schools.

There is no running away as far as I am concerned from the PISA data that tells us that U.K.'s young people have the lowest well- being in Europe and the second worst in the OECD. That is what PISA tells us, we need to do some thing about it, to the song about it we need to be collecting that data. I'm sure we will want to think about this again, we all want to think of a way we competitive grass, the cost I think are very modest indeed that are acceptable to the Minister, and to this government because until we have that I just don't think we are going to be able to address the fundamental problem that for children who have poor well-being who are unhappy, who are perhaps poorer mental health, do not learn well, do not achieve and do not live the fulfilling lives that we all want them to live.

On that point I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

beg leave to withdraw. Is at your Lordships pleasure that amendment for six to be withdrawn? Amendment is by leave withdrawn. Amendment 463 Baroness
23:24
Baroness Blower Portrait Baroness Blower (Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lister. Given that Baroness Lister is unable to be here this evening it is unable to be here this evening it is my pleasure with her permission to read her speech to move this amendment. It's an honoured to move amendment 463 which would extend the provision of relationships and sex education to young people aged under 16 in post 16 institutions in England. It is an honour because it's been dubbed the Massey amendment is attributed to our late friend and colleague Baroness Massey of Darwen.

Had she still been with us she would have been the ideal person to move this amendment given her experience and commitment to young people's social health and well-being. It was to honour Doreen that I agreed to table this amendment even though I don't claim any expertise in this area. Another reason I agreed to table the amendment was that I was so impressed by how fast Dean Petra who approached me with her maid to -- make it mandatory campaign and enlisted many important bodies such as brick of which Lady Massey was at four, the sex education Forum and the and violence against women and girls coalition.

She has received the endorsement for this amendment of 50 organisations and has collected over 105,000 signatures for a petition. In her own words, I am a university student and the young survivor of domestic full stop as an older teenager I would have benefited from being provided with relationships and sex education after year 11 and an adequate education surrounding the early warning signs of Domestic Abuse Act, the different forms of abuse can take, and the places to get help. The third reason is that she has such a strong case.

She has identified a real gap in the mandatory provision of relationships and sex education which does not cover 16 and 17-year-olds full stop yet under the UN can the child, these are still children. Since RSE was made mandatory in schools it has begun to make a real difference. The Office for Students is making it a condition of registration for universities that they intend to prevent and address sexual violence. Fearing the gap in SE in sixth form colleges would lead to a preventative strategy with regard to sexual violence amongst young people.

This would help address the concern voiced by the Public Accounts Committee that, to date the approach to Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls has not put enough emphasis on preventative measures that are necessary to achieve long-term change. It is emphasised, it emphasised the key role that education can play in tackling this issue including in preventing children from becoming perpetrators in the future. Among its recommendations were that the Department for education should set out how it intends to work with children and young people to prevent violence against women and girls, including further changes to the relationships and sex education

**** Possible New Speaker ****

surveyed... Apologies to the noble Lady for interjecting relatively late into interjecting relatively late into her remarks but reminded that it is clear that members shouldn't seek to clear that members shouldn't seek to have their members read by other members of the House so perhaps the noble Baroness could rephrase her noble Baroness could rephrase her remarks in a way that makes it clear that she is speaking for herself not that she is speaking for herself not on behalf of another noble peer.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I apologise to the House I clearly, myself and possibly Baroness Lister had misunderstood Baroness Lister had misunderstood the rules relating to this. As has the rules relating to this. As has been noted national organisations backing the make it mandatory campaign in addition to the Children's Commissioner all agree Children's Commissioner all agree that the extension of relationships and sex education to this group and sex education to this group would be important. In conclusion, in a recent Commons debate on in a recent Commons debate on relationships education in schools, the Minister for School Standards emphasised the vital role that education plays in preventing violence and that the aim of relationships education is to support all young people to build positive relationships and to keep themselves safe.

That education must equip them for adult life, it thus makes no sense that just as they are at the cusp of adult life they should not be assured access to relationships and sex education to help equip them. The Minister continued that as part of the government's opportunity mission we will equip young people and children will equip young people and children with skills they need to form strong and positive relationships. Although she was talking about the school context, this is clearly important in terms of an extension to post 16.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Amendment proposed, after clause
23:29
Lord Hampton Portrait Lord Hampton (Crossbench)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment proposed, after clause 6 insert the following new clause with the words as printed on the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

marshalled List. I rise to speak to amendment 463 that I added my name to. Government that I added my name to. Government data shows that 16 to 19-year-olds experience the highest rate of domestic abuse of any age group. Without mandatory RSE education we are leaving many 16 to 18-year-olds unsupported, just as they are starting their first intimate relationships. Tender, a marvellous charity that goes into schools to educate children in relationships, has been working with this age group.

They found only around half the students could identify signs of an abusive relationship or knew where to find support. By contrast after participating in tenders workshops over 90% could identify workshops over 90% could identify abuse and know where to find help. Victim blaming and perpetrator excusing attitudes are also prevalent in this cohort. In part due to a high percentage of young people viewing harmful content online. End violence against coalition agrees quoting the national association managers of student services and I quote.

As the frontline of support services in post 16 education, we know it has been never more important to give young people a safe place with structure to discuss and learn about positive relationships. And to address the social isolation and misinformation, world living on Dean's 18-year-old seeking guidance in a confusing world deserve to be supported, to critically examine and challenge harmful attitudes along there appears in a safe and supportive environment that we can create through mandatory lessons.
23:31
Baroness Burt of Solihull Portrait Baroness Burt of Solihull (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Can I just start by apologising for my Noble Friend Lord Storey who has unfortunately had to leave to get the last possible train home. I just want to speak a few words because the hour is so late on amendment 471 and 465. This seeks to clarify in their legislation their requirement for schools to teach about nonreligious leaves such as humanism in religious education at these stages and I would note that I am aware of the ongoing review into the National Curriculum and it may well be the case that although the review or through the review it is recommended that religious education forms part of the National Curriculum, it is welcome to ensure that the subject becomes impartial, objective, and balanced with clear national minimum standards that teach children about all religions and nonreligious belief systems within our country.

However, as this may not come to pass, my amendment would ensure the teaching of nonreligious beliefs in religious education, 2015, the High Court ruling in Fox versus Secretary of State for Education declared that religious education curriculum should include the teaching of nonreligious beliefs to comply with the rights of freedom and relief under the European Convention on Human Rights. In 2024, nearly a decade later, OFSTED released a report of deep and meaningful, reporting that half of secondary schools and the majority of primary schools school to not teach about religious worldviews and in there are lessons.

It is vital that children and young people learn about other religious relief systems alongside major religions. They have a long and significant history in the UK stretching to sciences, arts, culture and politics. Many people in the UK live their lives around the values of the scientific method, making ethical decisions based on empathy and concerns for all living life and that in the absence of God or an afterlife we must strive to improve ourselves and our communities in the time that we have.

My amendment 471 would ensure that religious education must teach around nonreligious beliefs providing clarity and direction to schools with local authorities. 465, my amendment seeks to move the honour for collective daily worship in that state funded schools without a religious character. It does not remove the ability for schools without a religious character to combine the worship if they choose to do so. Nor does it as some lords have previously misunderstood ban prayers or carols or any other religious holidays.

It simply removes the legal requirement of mandatory Christian worship in non- faith schools while faith schools would still be required to provide collective worship, schools without a religious character will have to provide an assembly once a week that furthers the spiritual moral social and cultural education of all pupils regardless of their faith or belief. This amendment is about freedom of choice and respecting the diversity of our society. It cannot be justified when in their recent census on the third the population in England and Wales had no religion rising to over half of those in their 20s.

And a number of religious parents send their children to nonreligious schools, that school is still legally obliged to perform Christian worship and the alternative is to pull children out of lessons or assemblies, leave them sitting in classrooms or corridors by themselves. This is not a real choice. The current situation demands parents choose between ostracising their children and forcing them to the worship they do not want for their family. I know that there are many noble Lords that deeply and sincerely believe the values and I respect that belief.

That is why my amendment does not remove the requirement for collective worship in faith schools. But in return I would ask the noble Lords to respect those of us in society that do not believe in any phase and to allow parents and equally valued choice to have their children attend schools that do not require daily worship. And children should also have the right as under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child to remove themselves from worship if they do not believe in it.

Maintaining the daily collective worship statement from schools without this character is not respectful to those families, other religions or with no religion. We should require more choice, not less, to schools and parents to reflect the needs and beliefs of children.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise this late hour to site a
23:38
Lord Weir of Ballyholme Portrait Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise this late hour to site a side note of caution and concern for amendment 465 and 471 concern for amendment 465 and 471 concern for amendment 465 and 4712 concern for amendment 465 and 47120 there is any particular problem with 463. In terms of ensuring that particularly education around prevention of sexual violence and respectful relationships I think it is something that all of us should look to experience but on 465 and 471, 465 in particular in many ways sort of transposes the proposed private members legislation and it seems to be that by moving the requirement one is put in its place and seems to be something that is quite vague and ill-defined, talking about the would-be assemblies, the spirit that they would have to promote the spiritual morality and culture and social aspects of it if we have got that right from the legislation.

And it does strike me that it seems that it is almost a replacement, effectively a humanist assembly. That is a conclusion that I think a lot of people would draw. And the vagueness of what is being proposed in that case the collective worship I think will leave a lot into trying to find other forms of lectures or lessons in one sense that they were trying to put across within an assembly and there is no doubt that Whitley to widespread, a vast difference of interpretation and there is no doubt that many of the subjects can be quite controversial and I think that may be naive to think if you do not believe that would create a situation in a number of schools where there is a friction and governors in the school and I think that there is a certain element that is being stirred up.

The proposal of the amendment also on that choice. It is absolutely right at present that there is no child or family that is compelled to attend a religious or collective worship. There is completely right, that is something that is enshrined in legislation and as such I think it will remain and I think everyone would accept that is the case. However, the amendment put forward as today in terms of the weight is drafted create this alternative form of assembly which is absolutely compulsory on everyone and it would mean that if a parent objected to a particular assembly, objected to a lesson, there is no right for them to withdraw, there is no provision.

And I would also I think urge the House that there is a danger of unintended consequences. This was made a number of debate earlier about not wanting to go down in Northern Ireland education. I would say without going into any detail some of what I said was oversimplified and wrong in relation to that, but leaving that aside, members made the valid point that AC the best of education, the best social mix of education where there is a wide-ranging of faith.

Where indeed there is considerable level of mixing and I think that removal of the religious acts what is the impact on some parents? In saying actually we should do much more towards faith schools and feeling perhaps the faith of their children is not being represented. And I think it will create the situation where it makes albeit in a relatively small fashion integration less likely. I think that is the language of unintended consequences. On 471 I do not believe it is necessary.

Already the curriculum does reflect nonreligious topics within RE. I think that this is, effectively, something that superchargers the nonreligious issues within our desirable. And I would say that all of us without we have faith or not I think everyone in this House probably in different ways holds nonreligious beliefs. Unfortunately, Lord O'Donnell has gone, I share with him one unfortunate tree that I am a life long Manchester United supporter. I have a belief that in the next two years Manchester United will be in the premiership again.

Perhaps that is not a nonreligious belief because the amount of faith that is required to hold that belief is such that it perhaps tips over into the matter of faith over hope and experience. But nevertheless we have seen that this is tied in to that definition of the provisions of the particular part of the ECHR. Yet we know that in terms of definitions of nonreligious beliefs as a result of that there has been quite a lot of case law not just here but in Europe and very wide-ranging topics which have come into play in case law.

And, again, all of those are perfectly legitimate topics. However, I think again it raises the prospect I think within religious education of the nonreligious side of it overwhelming the religious and of it. And this might be quite literalist point of view but I think that principally religious education should principally be about religion. And I think that this clearly dilutes this to an extent beyond which it is acceptable. Can I say as well in conclusion I appreciate all the figures that have been quoted that we are becoming increasingly secular as a society.

And therefore I suppose what I would say maybe is old-fashioned but I believe that a lot of the laws and the collective values in an age where perhaps there are a lot of unnecessary provisions in this country ultimately rely on Judaeo-Christian values and traditions and I think before we completely abandon those in a school setting we should not do that on a casual basis, we should not do that without specific consultation, and therefore I think that these amendments take us in that direction too far.

too far.
23:45
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Labour)
-
-
The naivete of the Noble Lord is actually his own mind. The school that I attended, my primary school that I attended in Bradford, part of my title, now has a population which my title, now has a population which So the idea that that school by law has to have Christian services and assemblies is naive actually, and probably possibly offensive to the parents of those children. I think we need to recognise in our society that it is not actually fair to impose those things upon those parents and those children.

The UK is the only Western democracy which legally imposes worship in publicly funded schools. I think that we have been asked by the United Nations committee on the Rights of the Child repeatedly to repeal the collective worship laws. I think that is a justifiable call by the United Nations which we should not dismiss, mainly in saying that the noble Lord suggest we should. Also I think the idea that because we might want to change the way our schools operate in the way that they collectively discuss issues and values, we are throwing out the values that created our society is also naive because that is not what these amendments are proposing to do at all.

I expect that this will not be acceptable in this bill at the moment but it's very important to have this discussion because we are multiracial, multicultural society with many different religions and mostly none at all.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise to oppose this amendment, time doesn't permit me to properly time doesn't permit me to properly debate and discuss amendment 471 but I will confine my comments to
23:47
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Conservative)
-
-
I will confine my comments to amendment 465, I have to say I thought Lord Weir's comments were very polite and I more or less wholly agree with him. -- Oppose site. I want to talk about the first part of the amendment, the duty to provide an at of worship to replace that with an assembly that has been to be directed towards furthering spiritual moral social and cultural education. Rather than the spirit -- specific issue of a daily act of worship.

I think what we see in this amendment is an incoherent phrasing amounting to effectively and imposition of humanist beliefs. Refer to quote, spiritual education, regardless of religion or belief is absurd. To refer to moral education regardless of belief is irrational, it is impossible to make moral judgements without beliefs about what is right or wrong or beliefs about how these judgements should be made. It is not possible to understand British society and culture without regard for the religious beliefs that have shaped its literature, music, art, history and institutions.

The exclusion of religious belief from social and cultural education in assemblies is illogical and will restrict people's understanding. The assumption that it is more or less able to provide an SMB that is furthering the spiritual moral education of the people without regard to belief is illogical. In effect these assemblies would write humanist beliefs and by the highly partial account of spiritual, moral or social and cultural education. As humanists are keen to point out not everyone is religious. There are people who hold nonreligious beliefs, but these are beliefs and consequently shape the perspectives values and aptitudes of those who hold them in ways that are not neutral.

They are sincerely held but they are not universally held. This is why Humanists UK for example campaign so vigorously, they need to persuade others who currently disagree with them. There is also a disparity in parents rights to withdraw their child. Currently all parents have the right to withdraw their children from collective acts of worship. This amendment allows parents to withdraw their children from assemblies and schools that contain an act of worship, but does not allow parents to withdraw their children from humanist assemblies.

This two tier system is deeply inconsistent and unfair. The state educates children on behalf of parents with their permission and not against their wishes. The amendment is inconsistent with section 9 of the 1996 education act and incompatible with article 2 of the protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights and I will surmise that there has been no consultation with the Church of England or Roman Catholic Church or any religious bodies on this in respect of this amendment.

Without the context of religion the content of these assemblies will inevitably focus on issues of political nature. And views on these issues will have to be considered religious perspectives excluded. There are already concerns about political impartiality and schools in this amendment risks making matters worse. Britain and its values are rooted in Christianity, this continues to be reflected in our national life. Currently schools can accommodate important national days such as Remembrance Day within their acts of collective worship. Baroness Meacher spoke in favour of Baroness Burt Private Members' bills earlier in the year.

Which aims to achieve in the year. Which aims to achieve similar changes to this amendment. Arguing that Christian assemblies need to be replaced so that pupils can be taught quote, generosity, kindness, neighbourliness, community support. But the fact that these are valued in contemporary British society is due in large part to the impact of Christianity. These values have positively transformed society and are still cherished in modern Britain. It is impossible to explain the development of these values to pupils without regard for the context of a religious belief from which they arose.

There is an assumption that Britain is becoming increasingly secular country, and it is used to support these amendments. It is not borne out necessarily by recent studies which demonstrate a sharp increase in young people attending church. Doctor Rhiannon racketeer author of the quiet rival states quote, while some traditional don't do nominations continue to face challenges, we have seen significant broad-based growth among most expressions of church, particularly in Roman Catholicism and Pentecostalism. There are now over 2 million more people attending church than there were six years ago.

The present legislation already allows for the consideration of all beliefs and requires Head Teacher to have regard to the background of pupils in determining the extent to which collective worship reflects Christian belief. If still unhappy parents can withdraw their child, the proposals are trying to fix a problem that does not exist. There is also the issue that the amendment extends to Wales where the education system and governance is devolved. For all the reasons I have laid out I therefore oppose this damaging and wholly unnecessary amendment.
23:53
23:55
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
-
-
Arise to offer green support for all three of these amendments but in the three of these amendments but in the interest of time I will just make two brief remarks about 463 and 465. 1463 agree with all the contributions made thus far but contributions made thus far but their focus particularly on the relationship and sex education part of this, I think it's also important we focus on the PSHE element of that. This is education about the that. This is education about the financial sector and an ageing financial sector and an ageing personal finances, something there is general agreement about and a real shortage of, this is education about physical and mental health and about physical and mental health and a cross-reference unless Klay Thompson's amendment earlier about the importance of physical literacy in particular.

And of course it's about rights and responsibilities about rights and responsibilities and we have to note that with about 16 now being a government policy and coming in this direction it is surely important we are providing surely important we are providing education about voting about our political system to young people in our Further Education system. I further point that sometimes people further point that sometimes people say to me when I say we need the education system that's knocking it against votes for 16-year-olds, I against votes for 16-year-olds, I think 16-year-olds are as well informed about our political system as 60-year-olds and they more all need more information and education and educating 16 and 17-year-olds will also provide information will disseminate out into the general community through their family, their friends, colleagues in the workplace et cetera.

Ruefully on 465 I want to respond directly to Lord Weir who I think suggested there was something odd about the idea that Baroness Birch had twice brought Private Members' bills and I have spoken in support of both of those Private Members' bills, and that this was now being put forward as an amendment to a government bail. I would say that these are very well

**** Possible New Speaker ****

trodden path for... With respect in case there was

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With respect in case there was any misunderstanding this was effectively a transposition of that, effectively a transposition of that, I didn't suggest this was some sort of irregular route was something wrong with that. I did point out that clearly if it's part of this that clearly if it's part of this then it went gone through the same level of consultation as the rest of level of consultation as the rest of the bill in that regard, but I didn't suggest it was some sort of oddly trodden path in that regard in case there was any misunderstanding

**** Possible New Speaker ****

case there was any misunderstanding I thank him for that clarification and of course what he just said applies to any amendment just said applies to any amendment that you lodge house inserts into a that you lodge house inserts into a government bill. A couple of points, the argument for this amendment vortex five has already been powerfully made but we are talking powerfully made but we are talking about a law that is dating back to about a law that is dating back to 1944.

This is 1/20 century arrangement for the 21st-century simply as other such that doesn't fit our society anymore. I note there was polling in 2024 that said there was polling in 2024 that said that 70% of school leaders wanted to get rid of this current legal get rid of this current legal About alternatively moral, spiritual and cultural development, we hear from all sides of your chips house regular lamenting about how much cultural education we have lost from our current system. And how much lack of space there is to fit into the curriculum things like cultural activities and cultural learning, this is one way to create a little more space for something as pretty well universally agreed as being essential.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

If I can very briefly say a few
23:57
23:59
23:59
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
-
-
but she did it pretty well. It seems like a fairly agreed thing that you like a fairly agreed thing that you are on very solid ground here. It is useful information which people should have. I would hope that the government is showing say at least government is showing say at least fairly friendly to this amendment. The two amendments brought on by my noble friend, let's put it like noble friend, let's put it like this. I doubt very much whether one assembly a week is going to change assembly a week is going to change anybody's religious views either way.

Actually not making it compulsory from one point of view probably won't change religious probably won't change religious views either way. The fact that there are spiritual values and there are spiritual values and similarity in the values of similarity in the values of religions and the fact that it would be quite nice to people seems to be something that is quite common across most of the board is across most of the board is something that I think you can probably can convey elsewhere.

It doesn't have to be this way forward. I don't think it's going to make much difference. And it certainly would bring it in line with a bigger chunk of the population, and if you want spiritual activities somewhere else it is available. The final amendment in the group about making amendment in the group about making sure, well I hope my noble friend won't hate me too much I say it should already be there because any education is about religion must education is about religion must know about the control to -- counterargument I think this is bait counterargument I think this is bait -- belt and braces, I I'm not getting style that I think I'm not too far.

I hope if the Minister in too far. I hope if the Minister in responses can confirm that for 71 should be covered, and at least should be covered, and at least partially covered in all current lessons on religious education.
00:00
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
This group of amendment seeks to strengthen the curriculum both by extending the teaching of RSHE and PSHE to the age of 18 and broadening it to include nonreligious beliefs in the RE curriculum. I confess to being sceptical about the impact of extending RSHE in particular to 18 extending RSHE in particular to 18 in relation to safeguarding principally young women who might be affected by domestic, my own experience working in that field is actually young people are very good at identifying domestic in other people and indeed that's training and support can facilitate disclosures of abuse, but it is much less likely that they will identify it in time in their own relationships because of course most abusive relationships start off looking like any other relationship.

It is only when you are in that relationship and significantly controlled by a partner that you begin to realise what is going on. So I absolutely support helping and providing advice to people young and old in abusive relationships but I am not convinced that RSHE to 18 I do not support either amendment 465 or 471 for the reasons set out by both my Noble Friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough and the Noble Lord we are. I will spare the House might write out thoughts.

Suffice it to write out thoughts. Suffice it to say that I think we are at risk of schools being expected to step in where, in the past, parents were responsible. And I do not think it ends well when the state takes on parental responsibility. I do not culture. culture.
00:02
Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)
-
-
This group covers a range of items as we have heard, we have had some very detailed views on different sides of the argument which is inevitable. Covering the subjects. And the amendments. Beginning with amendment 46.3 noted by the noble Baroness on behalf of of Baroness Lister. Concerning making personal social health and education relationships to sell sex education mandatory for all students under 18 in further education college. We absolutely recognise the importance of promoting healthy relationships to young people and this is exactly why PSHE including sex and relationships is taught in colleges.

Schools play an important sexual content but just going a bit further, if I may, the Government understands the challenge particularly to women in college. This is part of the society of our problem, sexual and domestic, and it is why it is one of the government's five options to make our streets safe again and all parts of Government are contributing to the key target of having the instance of violence against women and girls in a decade. And the FD sector has huge experience in meeting these challenges and the departments FD student champion, support champion is drawing on this and on international comparatives to create a new toolkit that will arm colleges with confidence and skills and materials to make a real difference in the lives of their students.

Just picking up on the comments made with regards to the National Association of student services, can I reassure him that the Department works closely with the Association on improving support for 16 to 18- year-olds and their relationships and sex education and they will be at the forefront of delivering the new RSC toolkit later this year. While the Department has concluded that no current measure consistently formalises post-16 RS ET teaching given the diversity of the providers as it has developed haphazardly over more than a century, the 16 to 19 institutions must follow guidance requiring that they teach our SEN health education to all 14 to 16- year-olds.

To support colleges the Department has engaged in leading experts to disseminate effective RSC materials in practice and they are well-known in the field and she is working towards raising the quality and consistency and there will be a launch of the toolkit and a series of regional events in the autumn to raise awareness of this important issue. I am very pleased also to let you know that my Noble Friend Baroness Smith has had a recent meeting with stakeholders from the sector, including the Chief Executive of the sex education Forum, gen AI Walker, public affairs manager at the end violence against women coalition and the founder of the make it mandatory campaign, and Isabell, senior communications secretary for health charity and I and very pleased to let members of the House no that she had a very positive recent meeting with them and looks forward to discussing or continuing those discussions and to see how we can work with them taking this agenda forward.

Turning to amendment 465 in the name of the Noble Lady Baroness Berridge and the daily requirement schools this amendment proposes requiring this for active worship in nonreligious maintaining schools with a weekly assembly focused on spiritual moral and social and cultural education and extending this requirement to academies without a religious designation. The Government values collective worship in assemblies as an essential part of school life, encouraging reflection and beliefs, traditions, and ethics. As has been mentioned by several noble Lords this evening, the writer withdraw this does remain.

Under the Education Act 2002, schools must promote social, moral, cultural development within their curriculum stuff schools already have flexibility to deliver nonreligious assemblies first of this amendment introduces different statutory duties on local authorities, governing bodies and teachers. Creating administrative burdens without I must say evidence of improving pupils education experience. Just picking up on the comments of my Noble Friend Baroness Thornton who always has an enormous contribution to make to these discussions but just specifically with reference to her school, former school in Bradford, and I am sure she is aware of what I am going to say.

Schools do have considerable flexibility to decide how to beat their existing statutory duty stop schools can apply to their standing counsel for religious education, so for a wider exemption for the duty to provide predominantly Christian collective worship, further pupils over the age of 16 and parents of those under the age of 16 will be accepted and they can remove there to collective worship if they do so. Schools are required to provide supervision for them. Turning to amendment 471 with regard to requirement for schools without a delicious religious view to talk about a worldview, the Noble Lady is referring to introducing a legal requirement for services of religious application to take account of teachers of nonreligious beliefs.

As we have heard tonight, Britain's landscape has diversified and a growing proportion now declare themselves as having no religion as identified by the baroness. Current legislation is already flexible, it allows schools to reflect context when designing their religious education curriculum and include the teaching of nonreligious worldviews. This is recognised as being an allergist to a religious belief such as humanism. The independent curriculum separate is under way. The review has gathered evidence of a wide-ranging subjects, including religious education.

And as we know it is not due to make its final recommendation until later in the air. Given that, we would not want to pre-empt that reviews recommendation on any particular subject, including religious education. To sum up, we recognise the importance of relationships in sex education through personal tuition and have commissioned effective practice towards the effect, existing legislation already gives schools the necessary flexibility to deliver collective worship or assemblies in ways that support people spiritual, moral, social and cultural development.

And this flexibility is also guaranteed for schools designing their religious education curriculum to include more religious worldviews. I hope that noble Lords are reassured that we have considered their amendments in this area carefully and for these reasons I ask the noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.
00:12
00:13
Lord Sandhurst Portrait Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
-
-
My Lords, I beg leave to move amendments for 66 and 467. They have the support of Baroness Morris of Yardley who are not here at this late hour. I also support amendment 502 Whiteley to which I gave my name which is moved in the name of Noble Friend Baroness Barran. Both my amendments concerned with RSHE, the rights of access by parents and carers, to the relevant teaching materials step in doing this, I stress that I support the teaching of RSHE.

But it is a sensitive area as I think we all know. And it is important that parents know what is being taught. Not least because, although I hope they will not, parents have the right to request their child be withdrawn from some all six education to be delivered. Parents can be reassured about the content, they are less likely to be suspicious and to remove their children. But schools have been entering contracts with external providers in RSHE teaching and they have been providers whose materials forbid the schools from showing them to others.

This has created suspicion, it has greeted unhappiness, and, on occasion, parents and carers have resorted to litigation that is not helpful in the education of our young. It makes it more likely that children will be withdrawn. The National parents survey 2025 was published last week. It found amongst other things that 23% of parents say their child has been exposed to inappropriate content in an RSC class. And 71% of parents think it is important that schools consult on the content of such lessons.

So, parents must be entitled and should be allowed to see the materials that he just sees being taught with. And they have faced furious legal arguments of faced furious legal arguments of We must make the content accessible and remove cores for suspicion. The purpose of these amendments is to create a statutory obligation on schools to make all resources in RSHE properly accessible to the public. Since my amendments were laid, excellent new statutory guidance has been issued. Core parts are these, just two of them I shall quote from.

55 says that schools should take steps to proactively engage parents and make sure that they are aware of what is being taught in RSHE. 56 says that parents should, schools should ensure that parents are able to view all curriculum materials used to teach RSHE on request. This is excellent. However we must not forget that this can be amended, or more importantly withdrawn at any time by future government which has a change of heart. The amendment which I have put before you which would seek -- would seek to entrench them in statute not just statutory guidance.

Because statute would mean that any new government which wanted to depart from these principles could do so, but could not do so without the approval of Parliament, that is the point. There would then be proper debate in Parliament would have to approve it. The fact is that until now parents have not had proper access to examine the external resources, too many schools have failed them. They have been pushed by external providers hide such materials from the eyes of carers we don't want to return to that.

It's caused people to withdraw children from a most important part of the curriculum. We must make sure that the content is accessible and not cause for suspicion are removed. In these circumstances I it's difficult to see what arguments can be made against these two amendments, not least because the government now accepts that there should be a statutory guidance in the form from which I quoted. On that basis that should be the obligation to make these materials published, accessible and not removed without the oversight

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Parliament. I beg to move. Proposed after clause 52 insert the following were suspended on the marshalled List.
00:18
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

marshalled List. I rise to support my my noble

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I rise to support my my noble friend is commendable amendment 466 friend is commendable amendment 466 the issue really is that is absolute right about the misuse of the concept of commercially contrapuntal -- confidential contractual relationships between the education provider and the company providing the material. We need to go back to essentially as an accountability that we had with the old-fashioned model of school textbooks will stop they contain knowledge that had been honed over the ages, was visible and accessible to all and rightly so.

It's the heritage we need to pass on to our children. We have seen in some examples, not all but some examples of RSHE or other school resources are low quality, unscientific ideological political and they are very often provided to schools as worksheets by online school resource providers. These resources are not in the public domain, indeed the business model requires them to be available by subscription only. Some examples that I could draw to the attention of your Lordships house but I won't of your Lordships house but I won't go into too much detail.

The point is that teaching works when it can bring people together with shared educational experience and often some of the contested issues around micro-aggression, casual racism, critical race theory et cetera in particular preposterous unscientific nonsense around gender ideology which can have an impact on young vulnerable children and their families is not open to the sort of transparency and clarity that we really need and it should be, we should be looking at it being unifying experience and not dividing children in the spit contentious way.

Just to give one example moving away slightly from RSHE but pertinent to this amendment there is a resource that I have seen that quotes the wealth of the British Empire was built upon the enslavement and labour of people from across the Empire that's historically ignorant in that United Kingdom or Great Britain gave up 1/3 of its National Wealth Fund destroy slavery. So there has to be contacts. It's a pattern here, the internet has made so much knowledge accessible to all but it is also harmed, it also allowed harmful nonsense to flourish and this is why we recognise.

That's why this amendment is timely. As a society we are looking at how the internet and technology usage is impacting our schools, our children in ways that may be harmful we should extend that to exploration, that explanation to this area. The business model of online resource provision to schools has grown and flourished over the 20 years or so, largely unregulated and none reviewed. In the area of RSHE it is ready clear that contenting -- contested nonsense has been allowed to flourish, much of it provided by online resource providers so we can all see with this amendment what we are teaching our children in RSHE.

There is accountability and transparency and let us ensure that it is done only using resources that are fully available in the public domain on that basis I support my

**** Possible New Speaker ****

noble friend amendment. I support my noble friend
00:22
Baroness Jenkin of Kennington Portrait Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I support my noble friend amendment but I would like to speak to amendment 502 YEF in the name of Baroness Barran. Conservative Baroness Barran. Conservative government published draft agenda questioning children guidance in December children guidance in December 2023 followed by consultation which lasted until March children guidance in December 2023 followed by consultation which lasted until March 2024. Government has now had well over a year to examine the guidance and the responses that there is still no explanation as to why the response has been so delayed.

Much of the draft guidance as a reassertion of existing requirements for schools and I won't get into that now but I would like to. What is it that is being taught at the moment is so contentious and why are we so keen to have the guidance confirmed? Here are a couple of examples. Stonewall tells primary schools everyone has a gender identity. This might not be the same as the gender they were given as a baby, but it might not be, but it might be the same, but it might not be.

Equality each tell schools, if a transgender young person wishes to change their name person wishes to change their name and pronouns this must be respected. Brooke and ended intelligence advised teachers, schools should support young people to use the facilities they wish to use. This bad and confusing advice needs to be addressed. Were talking earlier about well-being of children, one of the reasons they are so confused and upset as they don't understand what is going on. Group supporting parents still regularly contacted by distressed families who reported challenging and sometimes hostile response from schools and they raised their concerns about social transition.

When parents requested schools take into account the casts report statutory safeguarding requirements and the Supreme Court judgement they are met with claims judgement they are met with claims that quote, no official guidance has yet been released. By the time some families discovered their child's adoption of a trans identity, school has already been fully complicit in encouraging the child in their new identity without the parents knowledge. Family relationships can be undermined and put the child at high risk of estrangement. I have much else I would like to say but the crux of the matter is why has the publication been so long delayed and will the Minister tell us what and will the Minister tell us what the government's plans are.
00:25
00:26
00:28
00:28
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
-
-
I support amendments 466 and 467 proposed by Lord Sandhurst and amendment 502 why proposed by Baroness Barran. I think Lord Lucas is amendment is substantially the same as one of the other amendments. In relation to RSHE we know that there is something of a free for on what is taught in schools to give effect to the statute requirement. Some aspects of education that many teachers feel underequipped or unconfident to teach and many schools and teachers rely on external providers to supply curriculum programs and resources.

Some of these external resources are excellent, some court topics are uncontroversial, but there are some real tensions. One is around age appropriateness. Some PSHE providers appear to start from the position that no child is too young for detailed and explicit sex education with the associated terminology. There is little recognition that parents have a wide range of views and the legitimate interests in what is appropriate for their children's age and stage. Especially primary school but also in lower secondary school.

The right moments of the RSHE curriculum that have become highly politicised with some providers producing materials that reflect their ideology rather than factual curriculum. Many schools have embraced teaching about gender identity, sometimes downplaying the importance of teaching about sex by which I mean the protected characteristic not the activity. In the light of the Cass Review it is clear that the claim that we all have an inner gender identity that is more important than our biological sex has spread confusion and cause much damage.

Vulnerable children have been encouraged toward social transition and puberty blockers, choices that shouldn't be contemplated for adult hood are still being floated at children who may already be in distress and may well need clinical help. Yet in our The other Government draft guidance which by the way was meticulously drafted and worded with enormous care and attention to language, that guide said that schools should not teach gender identity and I think that was a sensible safeguard. This sum of Government we can the position only to say that it should not be taught as fact and I think there is still a lot of confusion about what is really intrinsic children's interests, especially those who are already vulnerable.

And yes, that new guidance does at least give parents the right to see what their own child is being taught and that is welcome. But individual parents should not need to keep constant watch over teaching materials, so we need more visibility of wider public discussion about what is being taught to children to make sure that unsuitable materials are identified and that it is easy for schools to know this and to avoid those programs. Since 2004 actually OFSTED Mac has been seriously constrained in its capacity to look at what is being taught and their proposals I think would limit this further.

So unless Government changes its policy there is no chance of these being properly surfaced through that. And that is why amendment 466 is so important. It requires all our SHA resources to be published, site of and open to scrutiny if they're good enough to be taught to children they ought to stand up to public debate.
00:32
Baroness Alexander of Cleveden Portrait Baroness Alexander of Cleveden (Labour)
-
-
My Lords, I rise to speak in this group of amendments and in so doing just because it is incredibly late which is why I suggest I come from Scotland and this is an England and Wales only bill, so therefore I'll Scott speaking of education given our recent performance they seem a little unusual, but I wanted to speak in this group of amendments because 25 years ago after the Minister of local Government, a very early Hollywood parliament, piloted the repeal of section 28.

In 25 years ago on this issue of school guidelines we found it in the following brief and it is very much rooted in the language of the time and it was that we do not honour marriage by denying the validity of other relationships well established in our society. And I think in that context and the context we discussed today it is about not denying the validity of relationships and identities established in our society. Those words of inclusivity, tolerance, transparency, and age appropriateness still hold up a century later.

And of course the question of school guidance and resources for our HSE is inevitably challenging when you are trying to balance preserving the childhood for children, parental rights, and building inclusive societies. So, what does this mean in terms of the amendments we have? In 467 and 464. The Government should be encouraged to step up and create age- appropriate materials not just to third parties who I think have done so by retaining statutory guidance. And yet parents should have access to all the materials that are taught in schools.

And yes, individual parents should have the right to withdraw their child from individual lessons if they so wish. But what would not be right is for one parent to sensor the educational rights of others. In Parliament today, this is an issue of free speech. The role of schools is not to judge but to educate. And it is not for parents to interfere in other children's education. Education for our H SE on societies behalf includes recognition of and tolerance for the most marginalised including the LGBT community.

And I do think that language, we talk of gender ideology, is very close to the dying experience of some of the most marginalised in our community. My final point is on the one of the type and the speed with which we issue guidance on gender for children and I fully accept there is a desire by schools from that be an issue and I would just caveat it with one comment, of all the recent experience with ECHR of rushing out guidance almost immediately after the Supreme Court ruling that they then had to redefine as interim guidance to then be followed by a new consultation, then to the Government then a Government review then further impact assessments.

On that basis let us learn from that experience and let officials in the Government concentrate on getting it right the first time by building the broadest possible consensus on the guidelines, get it right for gender questioning children rather than to compel the hard and fast deadline and look forward to the Minister's response. response.
00:36
00:39
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
-
-
certainly if you do not like something it does not mean you something it does not mean you I would like to start by stressing how much I support the amendments standing in the name of my Noble standing in the name of my Noble Friend Lord Sandhurst. As we have heard, the RSHE curriculum exists in a delicate area between responsibility of the school and the values and beliefs of your child's values and beliefs of your child's parents. Amendment 466 would ensure absolute transparency on what a pupil is being taught and avoid some pupil is being taught and avoid some very regrettable instances that have occurred in recent years that noble occurred in recent years that noble Lords are well aware of.

My Lords are well aware of. My amendments 502 Whiteley and 504B would require the Secretary of State to publish guidance for schools regarding gender questioning of regarding gender questioning of children. And I was slightly surprised at this new idea that surprised at this new idea that things are being rushed through, as my Noble Friend Baroness Jenkin is set, the last Conservative Government published a draft unquestioning children guidance in December 2023. And run a public consultation on this contents in the early months of 2024.

And this was in response to evidence of schools socially transitioning children or affirming children as being of the opposite sex. Sometimes behind their parents backs. And as my Noble Friend Baroness Spielman suggested I could absolutely confirm this to be true. I cannot describe the care it has taken over every single word in that guidance. And I pay tribute to the long-suffering patient official of the DfE who was responsible for leading that drafting. And I quote from the draft amendments in recent years we have seen a significant increase in the number of children questioning the way they feel about being a boy or a girl, including their physical attributes to sex, and that related ways in which they fit in to society.

This has been linked to gender identity ideology, the belief that a person could have a gender that is male, female, or Their dialogical sex. Since the publication of this draft guidance, there has been a growing consensus that gender ideology harms. There is no science or evidence behind the idea of gender identity. It is an ideological assertion. Social transition across sex affirmation for children is not a neutral act. It is a harmful one stop it sets vulnerable children on a pathway to orderly disassociation, psychological confusion.

Draft gender questioning guidance established number of quite clear principles, including the duty of schools and colleges to safeguard the welfare of children in schools and colleges should be respectful and tolerant places where bullying is never tolerated. Parents should not be excluded from decisions taken by the school or college relating to requests for a child social transition. That schools and colleges have specific legal duties that are framed by the child's biological sex. And that there is a general community to an outer child to sexually transition.

And there are a number of clear directives to schools, including keeping accurate records of every child's sex, the primary school age children should not have different pronouns to their textbased pronouns. And for older children schools do not need specified pronouns to be used by each pupil and can decline a request to change a child's pronouns. Schools must always protect these spaces with regards to toilets, showers, changing rooms, and dormitories, and all sports from where visible differences between the sexes threatens the safety of children, schools should adopt clear rules that mended separate sex participation stop and single sex schools can refuse pupils with the biological sex and eyesight these because there is a clear directive that will help schools struggling with this complex issue and this will help the Children and Families Act it by this ideology.

I would urge the Minister that it is urgent to act and we know that the Secretary of State is under huge pressure from some of the unions to move away from the Supreme Court judgement as we saw during the speech at the conference, so I hope very much that the right honourable lady will hold her nerve against this and reassure us that will be the case.
00:43
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
-
-
Turning to group 9 and firstly to the amendments for 66 and 467, both tabled by the Noble Lord Sandhurst in this group, amendment 4666 to ensure that all external resources used in schools within their relationship sex and health education curriculum are published. And amendment 4676 to ensure that the Department issues guidance which Not prevent parents from requesting to review copies of RSHE school material. And not to enter into commercial confidentiality agreements that would prevent schools from showing materials to parents.

In July 2025 they published updated RSHE statutory guidance which now makes it clear that there is a public interest in parents being able to see what their children are being taught. This is particularly important regarding our HSE whereas noble Lords have suggested content is often sensitive and covers issues on which there are differences of opinion. At the legal requirement for schools to publish the relationships and sex education policies, and consult parents on them has been in place since 2020.

However, we have gone further in our revised statutory guidance which is now clear that schools should ensure that parents are able to view all RHS IMA material is on request. As the Noble Lord Sandhurst identified, these issues are expressed I think particularly clearly in the guidance from paragraph 55 onwards and I would just reassure the noble Lords quote some of the key sentences within that guidance. In paragraph 56, guidance is clear that parents, we should ensure that parents are able to view all, underlined in the guidance, curriculum materials used to teach RSHE on request.

But in relation to the important point I think made by my Noble Friend Baroness Thornton, the guidance is also clear that parents are not able to veto curriculum content that schools must consult with parents when developing their RSHE policy and it is right that they are able to see what their children are being taught, especially in relation to sensitive topics and schools should respond positively to requests from Several noble Lords of referred the issue of copyright and contractual restrictions which I know has been of concern to some schools in terms of sharing information, the guidance of sharing information, the guidance is very clear that when contracting with external providers schools should not agree to any contractual restrictions on showing parents any content that school will use, school should communicate to providers that they are legally obliged to have regard to the statutory guidance including the expectation or content including the expectation or content can be shared with parents and in paragraph 58 when contractual clauses exist that seek to prevent schools showing any material at all with parents they are void and unenforceable.

But I think that provides the clarity noble Lords are looking for with respect to sharing of information with parents and I'm afraid I don't agree with Lord Sandhurst that putting the small element included within the amendment on the face of the bill strengthens schools, the situation strengthens schools, the situation where there is a real clarity and depth and range of advice that statutory guidance is able to provide is statutory, schools are required to follow it and I'm afraid as the noble Lord himself identified even placing something on the face of the bill does not mean that that couldn't be changed in the future, notwithstanding more difficult processing or to do it.

This government has taken seriously the requirement to fulfil spirit and the letter of the case made in these amendments and I've identified how we have done that. Turning to amendment 474 table by Lord Lucas that seeks to ensure all external resources used by schools are publicly accessible, I've identified how we expect schools to be open with parents and let them see any resources that they are concerned about. If parents have concerns there are ways of dealing with them, maintained schools and academies already required to publish details of how parents can access further information about the schools curriculum.

Turning to amendments 502 YEF 504B by table by Baroness Barran which seek to require the publication of statutory guidance for schools and colleges on gender questioning children, on the day this bill is passed, we have other government constantly reaffirms our commitment to placing children's wellbeing at the centre of education policy. I'm sure the noble Lady is right in terms of the care was taken right in terms of the care was taken over the draft guidance that she was quoted from it was draft guidance which was then subject to a consultation, in response to the consultation on the agenda quenched -- questioning guidance to schools we are considering the evidence, I can assure the noble Lady equally as carefully as happened previously, of course we are now in a position to be able to include the report of the Cass Review as part of that consideration and we will confirm our next steps shortly and I think my noble friend is right in emphasising the need for this to be produced right, thoughtfully rather than necessarily quickly.

Although I do understand the concerns raised by noble Lords about the difficult decision schools are having to take. Nevertheless I think they would expect this to be done with equal care and bearing in mind both the consultation and other factors I've said such as the Cass Review and we will confirm our next steps shortly. On that basis I hope that noble Lords will feel able to to withdraw their amendments.
00:50
This debate has concluded
Return to start of debate - Return to top of page