Afghanistan

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Afghanistan.

From the outset this Government have sought to take a more hard-headed, more security-based approach to our mission. As I have said, we are not there to build a perfect democracy, still less a model society. Yes, we will help with the establishment of democratic institutions. Yes, we can improve infrastructure, develop education, encourage development. But we are in Afghanistan for one overriding reason: to ensure our own national security by helping the Afghans to take control of theirs.

This means building up the Afghan security forces so we can draw down British combat forces, with the Afghans themselves able to prevent al-Qaeda from returning and posing a threat to us and to our allies around the world. This is particularly poignant today, on the eve of the sixth anniversary of 7/7—an attack that was inspired by al-Qaeda and executed by extremists following the same perverted ideology that underpinned the 11 September attack in 2001.

Three hundred and seventy-five British servicemen and women have died fighting in Afghanistan to help strengthen that country and keep Britons and Britain safe from another 9/11 or 7/7. Thousands more, including many civilians, have risked their lives, and hundreds have been injured fighting for the security of our nation. They have been part of an international coalition involving 48 countries with a specific UN mandate, working at the invitation of a democratically elected Government. Though there have been many, many difficult times, we should be clear about what has been achieved.

In 2009, my predecessor as Prime Minister told the House that some three quarters of the most serious terrorist plots against Britain had links to Afghanistan and Pakistan. We must always be on our guard, but I am advised that the figure is now significantly reduced. International forces have been bearing down on al-Qaeda and their former hosts, the Taliban, in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. In Pakistan, Osama bin Laden has been killed and al-Qaeda significantly weakened. In Afghanistan, British and international forces have driven al-Qaeda from its bases and, although it is too early to tell for certain, initial evidence suggests that we have halted the momentum of the Taliban insurgency in its heartland in Helmand province.

We are now entering a new phase in which the Afghan forces will do more of the fighting and patrolling, and our forces more training and mentoring. As President Obama said in his address last month, the mission is changing from “combat to support.” When we arrived there was no one to hand over to—no proper army, no police force. In many places across the country the Afghan security forces now stand ready to begin the process of taking over security responsibility.

Success in Afghanistan requires a number of critical steps. The first is to ensure that Afghan security forces are able to secure their own territory. There have been well-known problems, especially with the Afghan police, but there has been real progress in the past two years. General Petraeus went out of his way to praise the recent performance of Afghan forces in a number of complex and dangerous operations. The Afghan forces are growing rapidly and are ahead of schedule to meet the current target of having 171,600 in the Afghan army and 134,000 in the Afghan police by the end of October this year. They are now deploying in formed units and carrying out their own operations.

There have been some real successes. Afghan national security forces have prevented insurgents from reaching many of their targets, and just eight days ago, when a major hotel was attacked in Kabul, they dealt with the situation. This was a major, sophisticated attack. They dealt with it professionally and speedily, calling in assistance from a NATO helicopter only to deal with insurgents on the roof. As General Petraeus stressed to me, they acquitted themselves extremely well. It is this growing strength and capability that will allow us over time to hand over control of security to Afghan forces and draw down our own numbers.

We remain committed to the objective, shared by President Karzai and the whole of NATO, that the Afghans should assume lead security responsibility across the whole country by the end of 2014. Last month President Obama announced that the US will withdraw 10,000 of its forces from Afghanistan by the end of this year and complete the removal of the US surge—some 33,000—by the end of next summer. At the time of the US surge, the UK increased its core force levels by an extra 500. For our part, I have already said that we will withdraw 426 UK military personnel by February 2012. Today I can announce that the UK will be able to reduce its force levels by a further 500, from 9,500 to 9,000, by the end of 2012. This decision has been agreed by the National Security Council on the advice of our military commanders.

These reductions reflect the progress being made in building up the Afghan national security forces. Indeed, it is worth noting that for every US soldier who leaves as the surge is removed, two Afghans will take their place. This marks the start of a process that will ensure that by the end of 2014 there will be nothing like the number of British troops who are there now, and they will not be serving in a combat role. This is the commitment I have made, and this is the commitment we will stick to.

Having taken such a huge share of the burden and performed so magnificently for a decade, this country needs to know that there is an end-point to the level of our current commitment and to combat operations. This decision is right not only for Britain but for Afghanistan. It has given the Afghans a clear deadline against which to plan and has injected a sense of urgency into their efforts.

Although there is a clear end-point to our military combat role, after 2014 the UK will continue to have a major strategic relationship with Afghanistan: a development relationship, a diplomatic relationship and a trade relationship. Above all, we have a vital national security interest in preventing Afghanistan from once again becoming a safe haven for international terror, so although our forces will no longer be present in a combat role we will have a continuing military relationship.

We will continue to train Afghan security forces. In Afghanistan I announced plans for a new officer training academy, which President Karzai specifically asked me for, and which I am proud Britain is able to deliver. We intend to lead the academy from 2013, in addition to maintaining our current role in the officer candidate school, which is due to merge with the academy in 2017. We will continue our efforts to help Afghanistan build a viable state, but our support cannot be unconditional.

In my meeting with President Karzai, I made clear the Afghan Government’s responsibility to ensure that British taxpayers’ money is spent well and spent wisely. I emphasised to President Karzai just how important it is that he personally grips the problems with the Kabul bank and the need for a new International Monetary Fund programme. I also urged him to support due democratic process and to tackle corruption, and I made it very clear that, although Britain wants to stand by Afghanistan beyond the end of our combat mission, we can do so only on the basis that Afghanistan must help itself, too.

Almost all insurgencies have ended with a combination of military pressure and political settlement, and there is no reason why Afghanistan should prove any different. As we strengthen the Afghan Government and security forces, so we will back President Karzai’s efforts to work towards an Afghan-led political settlement. The death of bin Laden presents the Taliban with a moment of real choice. Al-Qaeda are weakened; their leader is dead.

Last month, the United Nations adopted two separate sanctions regimes, creating a clear distinction that separates the Taliban from al-Qaeda. Local peace councils have now been established in almost all of Afghanistan’s provinces. These have already allowed more than 1,800 people from 17 provinces to be enrolled on the scheme for reintegration, so we should take this opportunity to send a clear message to the Taliban: now is the time to break decisively from al-Qaeda and to participate in a peaceful political process.

In this task, we need Pakistan’s assistance. As I discussed with President Zardari last week, that process is now as much in Pakistan’s interests as Britain’s or Afghanistan’s, because the Taliban pose a mortal threat to the state of Pakistan as well.

There is no reason why Afghanistan should be destined to remain a broken country. It has abundant mineral wealth and fertile agricultural land, and it stands at the crossroads of Asia’s great trading highway. It has succeeded in the past when not wracked by conflict, but Afghanistan still has many challenges ahead.

There are real security issues and a lack of Government capacity, but 10 years ago Afghanistan was in the grip of a regime that banned young girls from schools, hanged people in football stadiums for minor misdemeanours and banished radios and any form of entertainment—while all the time incubating the terrorists who struck on 9/11 and elsewhere.

Afghanistan, for all its imperfections, has come a long way. Today, it is no longer a haven for global terror, its economy is growing and it has a Parliament, a developing legal system, provincial and district governors and the basic building blocks of what could be a successful democracy.

In Helmand province, which with Kandahar, we should remember, was a stronghold of the Taliban and the insurgency, there is now a growing economy, falling poppy cultivation and many more effective district governors. The fact that President Karzai has been able to choose Lashkar Gah as one of the areas to include in the first phase of transition is a sign of the transformation that we have helped to bring about there.

As we enter this new phase of transition, I am sure the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to our servicemen and women who have made such incredible sacrifices to defend our national security. While we have been going about our daily lives, they have been out there day and night, fighting in the heat and the dust and giving up the things that we all take for granted.

That is the true character of the British Army, and it is why we are so incredibly proud of all our forces and the families who support them, and why we are so grateful for everything that they do for us. I commend this statement to the House.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to our forces, who serve with such dedication and such heroism in Afghanistan, and let me just say to him that, whatever differences separate us on other issues, I commend the substance and the tone of his statement today and, indeed, his approach to the issue of Afghanistan.

As we prepare to remember tomorrow the victims of the attacks of 7/7, we are all reminded of why we are engaged in Afghanistan: to secure our security at home. That is why Opposition Members continue to support our forces in Afghanistan. We continue to support also the Prime Minister’s intention to end the British combat role in Afghanistan by the end of 2014. It is right that we make it clear to the Afghan Government and their security forces that they need to step up and take responsibility for the future of the country, and it is right that we make it clear to the British people that this is not a war without end.

This year and next we must maintain the combination of military pressure, the accelerated build-up of the Afghan security forces and the work on basic governance and justice. I support the Prime Minister’s plan to maintain British troop levels above 9,000, as they have been for the past two years, for this fighting season and the next. That will give our forces the best chance of consolidating the situation before the process of transition to Afghan control accelerates in 2012 and 2013, when our forces can start to come home in greater numbers.

May I first ask the Prime Minister about our troop commitments? Will he assure the House that if our reductions go slower than those of other countries—in particular, America—that will not cause British forces to take on a disproportionate share of the burden in Helmand? Can he assure the House that detailed plans for troop draw-down will always be based on military advice and conditions on the ground? I am sure that he can give that assurance. We ask our troops to do a difficult job in testing circumstances. Will the Prime Minister assure the House that our armed forces will continue to receive all the equipment they need in the months ahead, including the 12 Chinooks he promised but for which the order has still not been placed?

The bravery and professionalism of our armed forces deserve to be given the best chance of success. As the Prime Minister said in his statement, that will be realised only if we see political progress in Afghanistan. The political track is as important as the decisions on troop numbers and military strategy. As I understand it, there are still talks about talks. I am sure the Prime Minister will agree that much work needs to be done between now and the Bonn conference in December, and indeed after it, if we are to make the most of this opportunity. I have some specific questions on that issue.

First, to build on the excellent work of Stefan di Mistura, the UN special representative, will the Prime Minister press for the Security Council to appoint a senior figure, perhaps Mr di Mistura or someone from the Muslim world, to be empowered to mediate between the Afghan Government, ISAF and those members of the Taliban who renounce violence? Such a figure could help to secure the commitment of countries in the region to support a new political settlement, reflecting their shared interest in long-term stability in Afghanistan.

Secondly, although it must remain a red line that the Taliban and others must commit to a peaceful political process, the constitution need not be set in stone. Will the Prime Minister press the Afghan High Peace Council to consider constitutional reform, including a more devolved Afghan state, which I believe is one demand that could unite people with political differences? Those steps need to be taken now so that by the time of the Bonn conference in December the ground has been prepared and real progress can be made.

As we look to a stronger Afghanistan, we all recognise that there are issues of governance and the rule of law. Will the Prime Minister say more about the ongoing scandal over the Kabul bank? I welcome that he raised the issue with President Karzai. Does he agree that this problem symbolises the inability of the Afghan Government at times to distance themselves from practices that threaten to undermine the Afghan economy and international development assistance? Will he tell us more about the role that Britain is playing to get the Afghan Government to take the necessary steps to tackle the crisis in the Kabul bank and allow the International Monetary Fund to resume its proper support?

Finally, I turn to Pakistan. We all accept that long-term stability in Afghanistan depends on stability in Pakistan. When I met President Zardari last week, I commended the hard work and sacrifice of the Pakistan security forces in tackling violent extremism in the north-west of the country. As the Prime Minister said in his statement, the situation in Pakistan continues to be serious. There is a danger that the bringing to justice of Osama bin Laden, which should be welcomed on all sides, will not have that effect in Pakistan. What steps is the Prime Minister taking to put British support for counter-terrorism in Pakistan at the heart of our relationship with the Pakistan Government?

We all want to see British troops come home at the earliest opportunity, not least the family and friends of those who are currently serving in Afghanistan. However, we also want the campaign to be concluded in a way that ensures that their service and sacrifice has not been in vain, and that Afghanistan and the wider region move into a stable future, rather than once again posing a serious threat to our security and that of other countries. I welcome today’s statement as a step along that path. I say to the Prime Minister that I will continue to work with him on Afghanistan so that we can redouble our efforts on the military and political fronts to give Afghanistan the stability it needs for the future.

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his response to the statement and for the very good cross-party support not only for the mission but for how we are proposing to draw down and bring it to an end. He is right to say that the combination of military pressure, the build-up of the ANSF and a political process can enable us to meet our objective.

The right hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions, the first of which was on troop commitments. Yes, we are withdrawing troops more slowly than the US, but of course the US had a surge of about 33,000 troops. Its enduring number is more like 70,000, so obviously it makes sense for our draw-down to be proportionately smaller. It is important for us to have the draw-down in the way I have said.

The right hon. Gentleman said, quite rightly, that we must be careful as the draw-down takes place that we do not put a disproportionate burden on the remaining British troops. I am very clear that we must not enter into large new operational areas. We should continue the excellent work that we are doing in Helmand province, handing over progressively to the Afghans. Indeed, we are seeing the transition of Lashkar Gah and it might well be possible to transition other parts of Helmand province in a very effective way before the end of the process.

On the issue of equipment, one thing that struck me on the visit from which I have just returned, and indeed on visits over the past couple of years, is that there is now a real sense among our troops that they have the equipment they need. The body armour is much improved, as is the quality of vehicles, such as Mastiffs. There is no use of Snatch Land Rovers outside bases any more, and what has taken place is very positive. Obviously some of that action was initiated under the previous Government, and it has been continued under this Government. Funding the urgent operational requirements in Afghanistan is working well. Clearly we need to ensure that we have helicopter capacity and that Chinooks and the rest go ahead.

On talks, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the need for a new international figure. I feel that perhaps the time for that has passed. I think that we now need an Afghan-led process. There are now much more effective discussions taking place between Afghanistan and Pakistan, with a much more positive attitude on both sides. We should do what we can to give that every possible support.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the High Peace Council. I met former President Rabbani, and I think he is doing extremely good work in that process. We should not be completely hung up on every element of the current Afghan constitution, but it is important to give a reassurance to the Government, Parliament and people of Afghanistan that there is not some secret agenda to carve their country up. There is not. We want to see a strong and stable Afghanistan, with everyone within it playing a part in its future.

On the Kabul bank, we are very clear about what is necessary. We need a forensic audit of what went wrong and what happened, and we need the recapitalisation of the central bank so that the financial system is properly supported. The UK is massively involved in that process, and we are working for a positive outcome. We need it, because otherwise funds cannot flow into organisations in Afghanistan in the way that they need to.

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right to commend the Pakistani security forces for what they have done in the north-west frontier and elsewhere. On the British relationship with Pakistan, what is important at a time when it is clearly under huge challenge is obviously to talk about our counter-terrorism relationship, but also to stress all the parts of our relationship and explain that we are there for a democratic and peaceful Pakistan for the long term, just as we want to have a long-term relationship with Afghanistan. Both those countries fear, and have good evidence from the past, that some in the west will walk away. We must convince them that our long-term interests are to be with them and stand with them.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the magnificent performance of the men and women of all three services and all those who support them in Afghanistan? May I particularly commend the decision that he has pushed forward to have an officer training school in Afghanistan and provide the personnel to be instructors? The British Army is brilliant at that and will do it very well. May I suggest that he might also consider whether our resources might extend to doing the same thing to provide help in training civil servants?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I misspoke—I referred to the spirit of the British Army, but I should have talked about all the British armed services. It is very striking when one is there just how many RAF personnel, and indeed how many Navy personnel, are in Afghanistan, not least the Marines. I had the great pleasure of being able to speak to both the UK Royal Marines and the US Marine Corps—an odd thing to do on Independence day, but I struggled through none the less.

My hon. Friend is right to mention what we are calling “Sandhurst in the sand”, which I think is the right proposal for British involvement in the future. Clearly there is also a case for doing more on civil service training, and we will look at that as well.

[David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)]

May I beseech the Prime Minister to reconsider his rejection of the idea of a UN mediator? His own arguments about the record of the Afghan Government, and indeed its present activities, show why an independent figure from the Muslim world needs to be engaged there, with the Afghan Government as a party but also with western nations and neighbours as parties.

Secondly, will the Prime Minister pick up the idea of a council of regional stability? Although he is right to mention Pakistan, the truth is that stability in Afghanistan requires the engagement of all its neighbours, not just the Pakistanis. The dangers in Afghanistan relate not just to the presence of the Taliban in the political system but to some of the northern and other groups. A council of regional stability is essential to provide the type of support for a stable Afghanistan that we all want to see.

[The Prime Minister]

I listen carefully to the right hon. Gentleman, who has considerable experience in this. I agree very much about ensuring that Afghanistan’s neighbours are fully involved. One point I would make, though, is that from what I have seen there is no shortage of ideas for new processes to wrap around that. The problem is a lack of commitment. We need to see real commitment from the Afghans to work with the Pakistanis and real commitment from the Pakistanis to work with the Afghans.

President Karzai made the very reasonable point to the Pakistanis when he visited recently that there must be an ability to allow Taliban who want to talk to go to talk, but that those Taliban who do not want to talk must be arrested and confronted by the Pakistanis. It seems to me that it is about commitment. We can wrap all the processes in the world around it, and I will certainly look at what the right hon. Gentleman says, but in the end what we should be about is encouraging real commitment to make the peace process work.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

May I endorse the points that have just been made about the need for regional involvement in stability? The Prime Minister went to some lengths to explain what the United Kingdom would do after the withdrawal of combat forces. What confidence does he have that other countries—for example, members of NATO or the European Union—will be willing to contribute in a similar way?

[The Prime Minister]

I think there is good evidence that there is a real commitment in NATO. Many NATO partners say that we joined this together and should leave together. There is a growing understanding that what needs to be done in cases such as this is to have an enduring relationship rather than just a short-term relationship. That argument is well understood, and the commitment that other NATO members have made to the training positions in Afghanistan is a pretty positive story.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

As someone who takes a somewhat different view on Afghanistan, may I make it quite clear that I pay tribute, as I have previously, to the British troops involved for their bravery?

Will the Prime Minister continue to reject the arguments of those who oppose ending the British combat role in the next four years? As far as I am concerned, I would like to see it done earlier. Is there not a very strong feeling in this country that, after 10 years, the British people want out?

[The Prime Minister]

I think what the British people want is some certainty about the length of the mission and what it involves. My belief is that because we have been in Afghanistan since 2001 and in Helmand province since 2006, it is reasonable to say to people that we are going to be there until the end of 2014 in large numbers and in a combat role, but that after that the numbers will be lower and we will not be in a combat role. That gives people in our own country some certainty, but it also puts some pressure on the Afghans to ensure that they have really worked out how they need to take their responsibilities. The advice that I receive from our military commanders is that this is doable. Yes, it is challenging, but it is on track to be achieved.

[Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

I welcome what my right hon. Friend said about the modest withdrawal of troops next year, and, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), I also particularly welcome what the Prime Minister said about the officer training academy in Afghanistan. Will the military relationship after 2015 extend beyond that academy to training, mentoring, logistics and other support?

[The Prime Minister]

Yes, it will. Let us look at the numbers—we are talking about roughly 120 British personnel for the training academy, supplemented by other countries’ personnel. Indeed, the US has agreed to put, I think, $38 million into the training academy. Clearly we want to do more over and above that, and the National Security Council will discuss precisely how much we should commit and how much we will spend. Yes, of course we will be going over and above that as part of an important relationship to help Afghanistan build and maintain its capacity.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

May I join the Prime Minister in expressing my condolences to the family of Scott McLaren, who was killed in such tragic circumstances earlier this week? He came from Edinburgh. His loss of life is a reminder to us of the sacrifice being made in Afghanistan by so many young people from this country.

When the Prime Minister spoke of drawing down troop levels next year, I think I am right in saying that he meant reducing our troops to the numbers that we had at about the beginning of 2009. However, I was unclear about what will happen after 2014. Are we talking about maintaining such a significant presence after that time? I appreciate that the troops will be in a different role and doing different things, but the House will want to have some idea whether we are talking about maintaining such a significant presence, and also of where other countries stand on that.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman asks a totally appropriate and legitimate question. What I have said is that the numbers are going down to 9,000 by the end of 2012. We must then work out the right number for 2013 and into 2014. I have said that after that, we will not be in Afghanistan in anything like the same number, nor in a combat role. I am not in a position now to give a figure for, as it were, the enduring commitment, through 2015 and beyond and the training role, which involves the officer training academy and other training work. We are not in a position yet to put a figure on that, but it will obviously be way down from the figures that we talk about today.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

The Prime Minister reaffirmed today that the stated policy objective in Afghanistan is to deny al-Qaeda a base from which it can attack the UK and other British interests. From that, it is fair to assume that he continues to receive intelligence that al-Qaeda remains a threat in Afghanistan. I know that this is difficult, but will he consider how that information and intelligence can be shared with the House?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously, the whole process of sharing intelligence is a difficult vexed issue, and there are some difficult recent historical connotations. What I said in my statement is that there was a time when the lion’s share of plots that threatened people in UK came from the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. The number of such plots has come down significantly since then. Clearly, al-Qaeda has been absolutely hammered in Pakistan—it has lost a huge number of its senior leaders—and it has nothing like the presence in Afghanistan that it had when it was hosted by the Taliban in 2001. Our aim should be not just to exclude al-Qaeda from Afghanistan, but to ensure that the Afghans can go on ensuring that exclusion without the support of foreign troops. That is our real enduring aim.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

I express my admiration for the service personnel, including the men and women of York’s 2 Signal Regiment, whom I met in Afghanistan when I went with the NATO Parliamentary Assembly three weeks ago. As our troops come home we will, thanks to the NATO training mission, leave behind very strong, and very well-trained and armed, Afghan national security forces. However, at the current rate of progress we will also leave behind fragmented politics. Given the history of military dictatorship and authoritarian states in the region, I believe that Afghanistan could go the same way. What are our Government doing to try to prevent that from being the medium-term outcome?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. The more mechanical task of training the Afghan army and police is now going very well. There were errors and mistakes in the early days, but I think that they have been ironed out. I was very struck by what General Petraeus and Lieutenant-General Rodriguez said about the quality of the Afghan army. Clearly, the long pole in the tent—as they like to call it—is how strong, sustainable and vigorous is the quality of Afghan governance and democracy. The moment there is a stand-off between the Executive on the one hand and the Parliament in the other, we must settle those issues.

As I said, I do not think that we will achieve perfection—Afghanistan is a country without a long-standing democratic history—but we must help to put in place basic democratic institutions and functioning government. The British effort is hugely geared towards that task.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Given that for many years our Government negotiated with the Provisional IRA while we were still fighting, I suspect that at some level, we will be negotiating with the Taliban. Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree that one of the most important things that we must put forward in any negotiations with the Taliban is that al-Qaeda should never become part of Afghanistan if the Taliban were ever to form a Government, or part of a Government, in that country?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right. Let me make two points. First, this must be an Afghan-led process. This is about the Afghans trying to bring together in their country all the elements that should form a part of its future. Clearly, if the Taliban separate themselves from al-Qaeda, and if they are prepared to give up violence and accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitutions, those are end conditions. If they can do that, there is the potential for a political process that can speed the end of this conflict. Clearly, we must go ahead on the basis that we are building the Afghan army and continuing with very tough operations to take out Taliban insurgents, but that there is also the opportunity for a political integration process at the low level, and a reconciliation process at the high level, that can speed the end of the conflict, and we can end up with a more stable and peaceful Afghanistan.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister referred to the recent attacks on the hotel in Kabul, which is well inside several security rings. Are there not worrying indications that the Taliban are infiltrating parts of Afghanistan where they previously had not been? How confident can we be that the Afghan authorities and President Karzai will be a in a position of complete control over the internal security of Afghanistan by the end of 2014?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the capacity of the Afghan Government and the scale of the Afghan security forces, which is improving all the time. The point I would make is that there has been rather unfair press about the hotel. In fact, the Afghan security forces were able to clear it of insurgents rapidly. There was of course a regrettable loss of life, but the operation was fast and effective. They drove the insurgents on to the roof, where they were effectively taken out with the assistance of NATO. We saw a similar attack on a hotel in Mumbai, and we have seen suicide attacks in other countries. All I can say is that people who are pretty tough nuts, such as General Petraeus and Lieutenant-General Rodriguez, were very impressed by what the Afghan security forces did. We should be talking that up, not talking it down.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Although my right hon. Friend, and indeed President Obama, are under all kinds of pressures to speed up the withdrawal from Afghanistan, and although that would be the wrong reason to withdraw, may I commend my right hon. Friend on setting a timetable, because that is how to accelerate the political process in Kabul and make President Karzai sit up and engage in the some of the talks that are already taking place? I also agree with my right hon. Friend that it would be quite wrong to internationalise that process. It must be done through the tribal structures and Loya Jirgas in Afghanistan, by and for Afghans. It is not something that we can supervise from the UN.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question; perhaps I can adjudicate between the two poles in the House. The process must be Afghan led. We do not want a bad, tribal, poorly thought-through carve-up that will lead to future instability. Clearly, there must be a proper reconciliation process, but what I have seen—a timetable has perhaps assisted with this—is a very positive engagement from Afghanistan in Pakistan on their shared future. We can push, encourage and work with those two countries, but in the end they must make decisions together on how they will be more secure.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Everybody would welcome the fact that peace negotiations are seriously under way. May I ask the Prime Minister for assurances that the rights of women will not be sold down the river? Those rights have been hard fought for. We do not want to see women once again imprisoned in their homes, and children—girls—not allowed to go to school. Will he ask the President to include women in his negotiating team? Many women are fearful of what will happen in Afghanistan in future, and they deserve such assurances.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Lady makes a very good point. I would stress that prominent Afghan women are involved in that reconciliation process through the high peace council, which is run by former President Rabbani. Clearly, nobody wants a return to the days of the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, but we must accept that if we want a speedier end to the insurgency and long-term stability in Afghanistan, what President Karzai has referred to as his “lost cousins”—those who have lost their way—must be brought back into the body of Afghanistan. We found that fantastically difficult with Irish republican terrorists, but none the less, people who were previously committed to violence, maiming and bombing people are now sitting in government in Stormont. The same process must happen in Afghanistan, difficult though it is.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

May I press the Prime Minister again on the importance of talks with the Taliban being non-conditional? Non-conditional talks with the IRA helped to bring about peace in Northern Ireland, and I suggest that the US wish for al-Qaeda and the Taliban to sever all ties should be part of a settlement rather than a precondition.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right, in that what matters is the end of the process. If we can get into a political process in Afghanistan with people who have separated from al-Qaeda, given up violence and accepted the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution, that will be a success. However, we cannot shade or fudge the idea of letting armed terrorists into government. We need to have some red lines in our minds about what is possible and appropriate, otherwise we will not end up with stability or any form of functioning state.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Prime Minister will know of increasing concern about the use of drones in Afghanistan and elsewhere, particularly about the risk that they will strike civilians. Just yesterday it was confirmed that a drone had killed four Afghan civilians and injured two others. Given that military officials are saying that almost one third of the Royal Air Force could be made up of drones within the next 20 years, will he review the use of this policy?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course it matters hugely that we avoid civilian casualties, whether in Afghanistan or in Libya. However, I do not think that the answer is to turn our face away from the modern technology that can now pinpoint people who are doing us harm. The technology being used in Afghanistan, including drones and other aerial ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—cameras, has been hugely effective in driving back the Taliban insurgency and taking out people who are doing us harm.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

16 Air Assault Brigade recently returned from its fourth deployment to Afghanistan, much good having been achieved. I urge caution over the speed of the withdrawal of British troops in case all that good work comes to nothing. In particular, I draw the Prime Minister’s attention to what happened in the summer of 2008, when the four battalions of the Parachute Regiment joined forces to transport a turbine to the Kajaki dam. Three years later, it still has not been connected up.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I do not want us to jeopardise the success achieved so far. From my many conversations with our service personnel, many of whom are going back to Afghanistan for a second, third or, as he said, even a fourth time, it seems to me that morale is extremely high, and that there is a sense that we are achieving good things in Afghanistan. However, I think that we need to focus on what is effective. One problem has been that we should have applied earlier the effective measures of counter-insurgency that we are now pursuing—protecting the larger population centres and ensuring that the main transport routes are open. Some of what we have done in years gone by might have had important symbolism for Afghans, but the real symbolism lies in protecting large population centres so that people can go about their daily lives.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Does the Prime Minister support the campaign by his own constituents and many families of the bereaved for the processions that bring the bodies of the fallen back to this country to be rerouted through urban areas so that local people can publicly express their respect, the families can express their grief and the country can be reminded of the true cost of war?

[The Prime Minister]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised this issue. Obviously, as the constituency MP, I take a close interest in it. I have tried to allow for the greatest possible consultation with the armed forces, the MOD and local councils in Carterton town and across West Oxfordshire district council. I believe that we have arrived at a sensible route with a far better centre for families within the airbase. Money is also being spent on a proper memorial garden where families will be able to show their respects to their loved ones. A lot of thought has gone into this, and of course we must keep it under review and ensure that it is done in the right way. However, there is sometimes a great danger—whether it is the local MP or the Prime Minister—of stepping in without allowing people to determine what is a good outcome that will be well done. Let us see how it works in practice before we jump to conclusions here.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

If we are to achieve a political settlement involving the Taliban, there must be an incentive for the Taliban to negotiate. At the moment, however, there is no such incentive. Has the Prime Minister received any indication from our American allies that they are contemplating the preservation of a long-term strategic base and bridgehead area in the region that would demonstrate to the Taliban, in any future Government in which they participate, that the return of al-Qaeda or other international terrorist organisations would not be tolerated and could easily be punished?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. However, I think that there is an incentive to join a political process, because Taliban mid and high-level leaders are being killed in ever larger numbers. Actually, we are now seeing, in some cases, lowering morale among the Taliban within Afghanistan because their “brave” mid and high-level leaders are cowering over the border in Pakistan. That is what has happened, and we need to keep up that pressure. Of course we need to work with the Afghans so that they have the long-term capability to go on dealing with the insurgency, if it continues—even in a minor way—along the lines that he suggests. However, no one should think that the Taliban are not under pressure; they are under huge pressure because of the surge and the effectiveness of the operations in which we are also engaged.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister guarantee that as we draw down troops in Afghanistan, we will not draw down the number of people who provide security for the diplomatic teams that will be left in the country?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously it is hugely important that we secure those who work in our embassy. I had the great good fortune of meeting many people who work in the Kabul embassy, which is now one of our biggest embassies. They have to make huge compromises to work in such a difficult location, and their security needs to be absolutely at the top of our agenda.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

It takes wisdom to set a date for withdrawal, but it takes enormous courage to stick to that date. Will the Prime Minister reassure us that no amount of guilt at lost lives, over-optimistic promises from generals or fear of lack of progress will ever shake his resolve that Britain will be entirely out of combat operations by the end of 2014 at the very latest?

[The Prime Minister]

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance because it is important to give people a sense of an end time to these combat operations. As he said, it is always difficult to change the lay-down of British armed forces. I think that the early decision I made to focus on central Helmand and to get out of Sangin has been hugely important in ensuring that we have the right concentration of forces on the ground to do the job that we need to do. It is always difficult to come out of somewhere, but it is an important measure to make us more effective. That does not mean that lives have been lost in vain, however, and the Americans continue to do excellent work in Sangin. Nevertheless, we have to make hard-headed and difficult decisions for the long-term good of our armed forces and country.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

In his discussions with President Karzai, did the Prime Minister raise the issue of the exodus of thousands of Afghanis from Afghanistan? As he knows, I have raised this matter in the House before. Fifty thousand Afghanis crossed the border between Turkey and Greece last year. Although he accepts that the threat from al-Qaeda is receding in Afghanistan, it is increasing in Yemen. What are we going to do about country shopping by al-Qaeda?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right. One of the roles of the National Security Council is to sit down and look at the scale of the threat that we face, and where that threat is coming from. Clearly the threat picture is changing, in that the number of threats coming out of the Pakistan-Afghanistan area is receding, and the number coming from Yemen and Somalia is growing. The nation has to work out how smart we can be in combating that threat. That means learning lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan about how best to combat extremism and violence in those countries. I am determined—with the good advice of the Home Affairs Committee, I am sure—to learn those lessons.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

I welcome today’s statement, and in particular the Prime Minister’s reminder to President Karzai that his Government must be responsible for ensuring that British taxpayers’ money is spent wisely and well. Can the Prime Minister reassure British taxpayers that measures are in place to ensure that that happens?

[The Prime Minister]

I can give that assurance, but clearly not everything has been satisfactory up to now. The situation with the Kabul bank has been appalling, but we now have it moving towards a solution, because there will be a forensic audit and recapitalisation of the bank. However, we need to put in place procedures within the Afghan Government so that there is not the level of corruption and wasted money that there has been.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I fully accept the Prime Minister’s argument that he cannot be entirely precise about how many of our troops will be in Afghanistan by the end of 2014. However, I am somewhat surprised that he can be so certain that they will be there in a non-combat role. If the progress made over the next few years is not as positive as he anticipates, surely he would not allow our troops there to be placed in a situation where security could not be secured, and which might require them still to have a limited combat role.

[The Prime Minister]

Let me turn the hon. Lady’s question the other way round. If we are still in Afghanistan in 2014 in our current numbers and still in a combat role, clearly there would be something fundamentally wrong with the strategy that we would be pursuing. The point is that we have a programme and a plan. It involves the build-up of the Afghan national security forces, which is going well, it involves working with our allies, which is going well, and it involves close co-operation between us and the Afghans, all of which can be done. That is what we should focus on, and that is the programme that we will deliver.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. Does he agree that a key element in achieving long-term stability in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be providing good quality basic education, which will give people hope and opportunities, and lead them away from entering into sectarian and ethnic violence?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. If we look at the huge population growth in Pakistan in particular, and the fact that more than 10 million children are now out of school, we have to ask what sort of future will they grow up into and what sort of extremism will they be prey to. That is why, in spite of the frustration sometimes felt at Afghanistan being unable to do more on education itself, we are right to have the targeted programme that we do, in order to put more Pakistani children through school.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement, and pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of our soldiers and security personnel in Afghanistan. Will he ensure, however, that we will withdraw from Afghanistan at a time when we have achieved our overriding goal of ensuring our national security, as he has stated in the House today?

[The Prime Minister]

The answer to that is yes. Our goal is that Afghanistan can secure itself from al-Qaeda and terrorist bases without the need for British or other forces. That is the goal, and that is why building up Afghanistan’s security apparatus is so central. All the other things that we have talked about today—schooling, development, education—are important, but security is the absolute key.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s focus on an Afghan-led political solution, but in honour of the 375 brave British service personnel who have died in Afghanistan, that solution must include the rights of women, rights for other minorities, religious freedom and a commitment to developing democracy. Can he assure me that in detailed talks, those will be some of his red lines with the Taliban?

[The Prime Minister]

Those things are guaranteed through the Afghan constitution, and Afghanistan has made huge steps forward. Knowing President Karzai as I do, I know that he would not agree to an Afghanistan that was miles away from the sort of human rights and development goals that my hon. Friend wants to see progressed. However, we have to have a hierarchy, as it were, and the hierarchy of need from the UK’s point of view is to focus on security and the Afghan Government’s capacity to secure their own country. Other things have to take their place behind that.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister seems to be guaranteeing that the 12 extra Chinooks will be ordered. Is that right?

[The Prime Minister]

What I am saying is that we have made announcements about Chinooks being ordered, and we will stick to those announcements.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

Britain can help to achieve peace and stability in Afghanistan by leaving a lasting long-term legacy. I welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement today about the officer training school, but does he not agree that for education for all, especially young girls, is also important?

[The Prime Minister]

I do agree: if we want to see long-term stability in Afghanistan, that cannot be possible by excluding half the population from being educated. Indeed, if we look right across north Africa and the middle east, the empowerment and education of women is important not just for human rights, but for economic development and for peace and progress.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement to the House today. Back in March, round about St Patrick’s day, several hon. Members, including me, had the opportunity to visit Afghanistan, and in particular Lashkar Gah. At that time, we met some of the people from the police training college. One could not fail to be impressed by their energy, enthusiasm and commitment. However, they needed a $6 million new college, yet they told us that there was no start date or completion date for it. If there is to be a handover of security, the police will need training. Can the Prime Minister give us a commitment on the start and completion dates of the police training college in Lashkar Gah?

[The Prime Minister]

I shall make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, the police training college in Lashkar Gah is up and running, and it is working. I have visited it myself, and it is taking huge steps forward. One of the tragedies of the situation is that police training was the responsibility of other countries. Britain has had to take on some of those responsibilities directly, and we have done so very well. He will be interested to know that Lashkar Gah town will be one of the first places in Afghanistan to effect a transition. It is imminent: indeed, already today, security in Lashkar Gah is basically provided by Afghans for Afghans. Having been to Lashkar Gah many times over the last five years, I find that fact pretty staggering and pretty encouraging, and I think others should too.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Given that the raw material for such a high proportion of the illegal drugs on Britain’s streets starts in Afghanistan, what progress is being made on getting farmers to grow something other than poppy, and is the Prime Minister confident that the Afghan Government will continue that work once we have left?

[The Prime Minister]

We are seeing progress on that, and Britain has invested in the wheat seed distribution project in Helmand. However, one of the lessons that I have learned from going to Afghanistan repeatedly over the last five years is that we can talk all we like about destroying crops and the rest of it, but if we want to do something about poppy cultivation the real key is building roads, because we have to enable the Afghans to get their produce to market. If they do not have legitimate produce to get to a legitimate market, the drug dealers will prey on them, give them their poppy seed and collect their poppy at the end of the harvest, and the job is done. This is about roads and government capacity as much as it is about the criminal justice system.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Given the Prime Minister’s remarks about the need to build Afghanistan’s political structures, he will have seen today’s media reports, so can he confirm whether the UK is considering sending senior civil servants or senior Officers of this House to Kabul on either a permanent or a temporary basis?

[The Prime Minister]

I had the great honour of meeting the Speaker of the Afghan Parliament. As I understand it, there will be good and strong relations between this Parliament and the Afghan Parliament, which is beginning to establish itself—but I will leave decisions on what Mr Speaker wants to do to Mr Speaker.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s comments about education in Afghanistan, but can he update the House on how much progress has been made from investing in schooling and education over the years, and on where that leaves us now?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman asks a good question. I shall write to him with the specific figures for the number of Afghans in school in Helmand province and elsewhere. I think that he will see very good progress, but I will write to him with the exact details.

Reports of the Chief Surveillance, Interception of Communications, and Intelligence Services Commissioners

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2011 Written Statements

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I have today laid before both Houses the annual reports of the former Intelligence Services Commissioner, the Rt. Hon. Sir Peter Gibson (HC 1240), the Interception of Communications Commissioner, the Rt. Hon. Sir Paul Kennedy (HC 1239) and the Chief Surveillance Commissioner, the Rt. Hon. Sir Christopher Rose (HC 1111).

The responsibility of the Commissioners is to provide independent oversight of the use of the investigative powers contained in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Police Act 1997. They play a vitally important role in ensuring that public authorities make use of these powers in a way which is necessary, for a legitimate aim and also proportionate to what is sought to be achieved. They are required under the provisions of the legislation to provide an annual report to me with respect to the carrying out of their functions.

All three Commissioners have concluded that these powers are being used properly and appropriately, in accordance with the requirements set out in statute and that respective Secretaries of State and the various members of the intelligence services, police and law enforcement authorities and other public authorities are properly complying with the duties set out in the legislation. They consider that the public authorities concerned are undertaking their work with diligence and in accordance with the law. There have, regrettably, been breaches and errors. However, these have been relatively few in number and in all cases they were caused by procedural or technical problems that have since been addressed.

I am grateful to Sir Peter, Sir Paul and Sir Christopher and to the inspectors and staff which support them, for their work on these reports—which taken together represent a significant increase in the transparency and oversight of these intrusive powers.

European Council

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on last week’s European Council.

The main focus of the Council was, quite rightly, Europe’s economy. In advancing Britain’s national interest, I had two objectives: first to ensure that Britain did not have to contribute to any new Greek bail-out through the European financial stability mechanism; and, secondly to support efforts to bring stability to the eurozone and growth to Europe as a whole, while fully protecting Britain’s position. Let me take each in turn.

I turn first to the situation in Greece. As I have always said, Britain is not in the euro—and while I am Prime Minister it never will be—so we should not be involved in the euro area’s internal arrangements. Only eurozone countries were involved, alongside the IMF, in the first Greek bail-out, and only eurozone countries have been involved in discussions about potential further bail-outs. It is absolutely right therefore not to use the EU-wide EFSM for future support to Greece—that is what I asked for an assurance about at the Council, and that is what I got.

That was not a simple matter because, as the House knows, article 122 of the European treaty is being used to provide aid to eurozone countries that have mismanaged their economies. That was not our choice; it was agreed before the Government took office. We have dealt with it for the future, however, because when the new permanent arrangements replacing the EFSM come in—from 2013—we will not be part of them, and article 122 will no longer be used for eurozone bail-outs. That was the deal that I secured last December. However, we still had to deal with the prospect of a bail-out under the existing arrangements. Under qualified majority voting, that required real negotiating effort, but the Government have consistently stood up for the interests of British taxpayers, and as a result the British taxpayer will avoid a potential liability of billions of pounds.

My second objective was to support efforts to bring stability to the eurozone and to promote growth across Europe. Although we are not in the eurozone, we would be badly affected by a disorderly outcome to this crisis. Why? First, banks across the world, including in the UK, hold Government debt of all eurozone countries, including Greece; and, secondly, the effect on other countries far more exposed to these debts would have a knock-on effect on us. As Sir Mervyn King made clear when unveiling last week’s financial stability report, the present difficulties in the eurozone are:

“The most serious and immediate risk to the UK financial system”.

It has always been a long-standing principle that the British Government do not comment publicly on market-sensitive issues, and I am not going to depart from that very wise approach. What is important is that a solution be found quickly that is credible in the markets and that will address over time Greece’s fundamental problems and contribute to providing stability in global markets and the world economy.

One element of that solution must, in my view, be using the time that we now have to ensure that banks and banks’ balance sheets are strong enough to withstand any problems and difficulties, and that there is full transparency across the financial system. In the UK, we are stepping up efforts to ensure that our banking system is resilient to risks originating from the eurozone. That needs to be done right across Europe, it needs to be done now, and it needs to be done properly. I argued for that very strongly at the Council, and it is reflected in the language in the communiqué. As a first step, that means that the current stress tests being conducted in the banking sector must be conducted properly and transparently, unlike last time, and that Europe must implement in full—rather than water down, as some have suggested—the new detailed Basel capital and liquidity standards.

A key way in which we can help all economies in Europe, including the eurozone, is to promote sustainable economic growth. The best stimulus available for European economies is to ensure that we are promoting competition, deregulation, supply-side reform, the single market, innovation and structural changes, and also using the EU to advance the cause of free trade, both via Doha and, where appropriate, through bilateral deals. Following the proposals that Britain set out at the last Council, which many member states now support, I pressed in particular for concrete steps to reduce the burdens on small businesses and micro-enterprises, which are vital to promoting innovation, jobs and growth. The Council agreed that

“the regulatory burden on SMEs needs to be further reduced,”

and that the European Commission would now assess the impact of new regulations on micro-enterprises and identify existing regulations from which micro-enterprises should be excluded altogether. That mirrors what we are doing in Britain, and it is the right thing to do. For too long, European Council conclusions have focused only on what member states should do, rather than on what the European Commission needs to do; and when we think of the quantity of regulation that comes from Brussels, we realise that that must be the right approach.

Let me briefly turn to other issues raised at the Council, of which there were three of significance: migration, the Arab spring and the accession of Croatia. First, on migration, Britain does not participate in the Schengen border area, and we are not going to weaken our border controls. As an island, Britain has an important geographical advantage in preventing uncontrolled immigration. At the same time, practical measures to strengthen our external borders in Europe are in Britain’s interests too. However, there was a proposal ahead of the Council to suspend the measures in the Dublin regulation that allow us to return asylum seekers to the first safe country that they arrive in. Together with Chancellor Merkel, I ensured that those proposals were rejected, and they are not referred to in any way in the Council conclusions. We will not have our border controls compromised in that way.

Next, the Arab spring. On Libya, the Council agreed a declaration confirming its full support for UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973, and the efforts that our brave servicemen and women are undertaking to implement them. There is now, I believe, real unity of purpose and political will across the European Union on this issue. The wider world is turning against Gaddafi too, recognising that the transitional national council is the only credible diplomatic body that can represent the people of Libya right now. The Russians and the Chinese have accepted the importance of the transitional national council, and Premier Wen made this point to me in our meeting this morning. Gaddafi is increasingly isolated; indeed, today the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest. Gaddafi is now a fugitive from international justice. The pressure and the time are telling on Gaddafi, and we will not let up until the job is done.

On Syria, the Council condemned in the strongest possible terms the ongoing repression, and the unacceptable and shocking violence of the Syrian regime against its own people. At my instigation, we expressed particularly grave concern about what Syrian troops are doing close to the Turkish border. On the middle east more generally, the Council called on all parties to engage urgently in negotiations, and, on the fifth anniversary of his capture, demanded the immediate release of Gilad Shalit.

Finally, on Croatia, earlier this month I met Prime Minister Kosor and welcomed her country’s progress towards completing European membership negotiations. At the European Council we agreed that the negotiations would be concluded at the end of this month. Croatia’s success points the way for the rest of the countries of the western Balkans, whose aspirations to join the European Union we have always strongly supported.

At this Council, Britain has achieved some important objectives: we have protected the interests of the British taxpayer; we have secured agreements to promote and safeguard economic growth; and we have protected Britain’s borders from uncontrolled migration. I commend this statement to the House.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I start by expressing sympathy with the Prime Minister for the sense of shock and loss he must feel over the death of Christopher Shale. From whatever side we come from, we all know that it is unsung heroes such as him who are the backbone of our constituency associations. I am sure the whole House will join me in sending condolences to all of Mr Shale’s family and friends.

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement on the European Council. On immigration, we support the position he set out, including on the continuance of the Dublin regulation negotiated by the previous Government. We also support the Government’s position on Croatian accession to the European Union. Let me ask the Prime Minister questions about Libya, Syria, the eurozone and the wider economic situation in Europe.

On Libya, the Prime Minister will know that Opposition Members welcome the Council’s continuing commitment to implement UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973. We are clear that we must keep up the pressure on Colonel Gaddafi and the Libyan regime. Those who are expressing doubts over the mission should remember that if we had not taken action this European Council would have been discussing not the conduct of our campaign, but, in all likelihood, our failure to prevent a slaughter in Benghazi. But beyond immediate military and diplomatic developments, experience of conflicts demonstrates that post-conflict planning is crucial to a successful long-term outcome. Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity to say something about this, and will he explain why it appears to be Britain and not the United Nations that is fulfilling this role? Will he update us on what progress is being made?

In the context of the Arab spring, will the Prime Minister take the opportunity to publish the review of the strategic defence and security review, which he told us at Prime Minister’s questions last week had been conducted? We are all interested in the outcome and look forward to seeing it.

Let me ask the Prime Minister about the situation in Syria, as he mentioned it in his statement. Will he tell us how we can continue to step up the pressure on Syria, including at the United Nations?

We have also consistently said—on both sides of the House, I believe—that Britain, as a supporter of Turkish membership of the EU should say to the Turks that the potential refugee crisis on their borders will only grow unless they help to put more pressure on the Syrian Government. Will the Prime Minister update us on conversations between this Government and the Turkish Government on that issue?

Turning to Greece, let me first say that we agree that the primary responsibility for addressing the situation lies with eurozone countries. As the Prime Minister will know, the UK made no direct contribution to the last Greek bail-out agreed on 2 May 2010 under the previous Government. I should like to congratulate the Prime Minister on sticking to our approach to these issues. Indeed, on the question of article 122, which the right hon. Gentleman raised, he did not mention the famous 15 July 2010 Greening memorandum on the European bail-out mechanism, which is of much interest to the Conservative Benches. That, of course, said that article 122 had been agreed “by cross-party consensus”. Every time the Prime Minister comes before the House and says that this is not something we supported, he needs to know that is not what the memorandum of his own Economic Secretary said in a submission to this House.

The truth is that we have an interest in the Greek situation that goes beyond the level of our direct contribution—because of the potential exposure of our banks; because we contribute indirectly through the International Monetary Fund; and because of our wider interest in growth and jobs in Europe. I understand issues of market sensitivity, but will the Prime Minister confirm that a full analysis is being done of the impact of any restructuring of Greek debt on UK taxpayer-owned banks?

Britain also clearly has an interest in the durability of the bail-out. The Governor of the Bank of England has said:

“Providing liquidity can only… buy time”

and

“will never be an answer to a problem”.

Will the Prime Minister tell us whether he has confidence that the right balance is being struck in demanding a further round of austerity against the need for growth in Greece?

After this European Council and after the Prime Minister’s statement, it remains unclear what the Council and the Prime Minister regard as a long-term and sustainable solution to the Greek crisis. Instead of boasting about being on the sidelines, should not the Prime Minister engage more with his colleagues to secure a solution to the crisis that will last, and will be in the interests of the eurozone and the United Kingdom?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

Let me first thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he said about my constituency chairman, Christopher Shale. Some people say that in politics there are no real friendships, but I think that that is completely untrue. Many of us in the House become extremely close to people who work very hard in our constituencies to help us. Christopher was one of those people, and he will be missed by my family and me and by many, many people in west Oxfordshire. As the right hon. Gentleman said, this might be a moment for us to reflect on the fact that, while we all consider what we are doing in this place to be public service, the work done by people who toil very hard in political parties up and down the country is also a form of public service, which I think should be recognised and praised as well.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support in regard to Libya. He asked about post-conflict planning. We are doing a huge amount of work there, not least by the stabilisation team that we sent to Benghazi. The right hon. Gentleman asked how we would be working with the United Nations. We are working closely with the UN, but I believe that when our constituents think about post-conflict stabilisation, as well as the longer-term stabilisation work that they expect the UN to be doing, they also want to know what will happen the day after: what will happen immediately after the departure of Gaddafi. We need to work very hard on that as well. There are clearly timing issues when the UN becomes involved, if I can put it that way.

As for the strategic defence and security review, I tried to explain that the National Security Council regularly reviews the implementation of the SDSR, and asks profound questions about it. If the right hon. Gentleman has complaints to make, he should be a bit more specific. I have found, looking at the SDSR—[Hon. Members: “More detail?”] Yes, the right hon. Gentleman should be a bit more specific. What we are seeing in Libya is that we need to move faster to an area where we have the flexibility, the ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—and the new assets that the SDSR is all about.

I entirely share the right hon. Gentleman’s frustration over Syria. Britain and France are leading the way at the UN, wanting a strong resolution, but we are meeting objections from many. We should push ahead as far as we can, because what is happening in Syria is completely unacceptable. I think that the UN has done well in establishing asset freezes, travel bans and the like, but we need to go further.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about working with the Turks. We were side by side with them on this issue, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is in permanent contact with their Foreign Minister, Mr Davutoglu.

When it came to Greece, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman gave brass neck a whole new definition. If he wants a brief description of the history of article 122, he should remember that it was subject to unanimity until the Nice treaty. It was in this House that my former right hon. and learned Friend Michael Howard objected to article 122 going to qualified majority voting, and warned of the dangers of bail-outs. He was told at the time, “Don’t worry, it will all be fine.” This is a hopeless line of argument for Labour Members, given that it was their party that got us into this mechanism, and this party and this Prime Minister who got us out of it.

The right hon. Gentleman asked for a full analysis of the Council. Of course the Bank of England and our banks are working hard to calculate our potential liabilities. I thought that the dog that did not bark in the right hon. Gentleman’s response was his failure to mention his proposed £51 billion cut in VAT. That, of course, is what the Labour party suggests that everyone should be doing in Europe. As one of those who sat around a table in the European Council representing countries with budget deficits—including our own at 8%—I think that in suggesting that VAT cut the right hon. Gentleman has achieved what I thought was impossible, and ensured that he will be taken even less seriously in Europe than he is in Britain.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister be good enough to put on record his appreciation of the support and encouragement of the British people and Members of Parliament in securing the terms from the negotiations on the Greek bail-out, and will he now take that further and do whatever is necessary to take the lead in both the United Kingdom and Europe to get us out of the mess the existing treaties got us into?

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support, and for his question. I have got us out of the mechanism from 2013, because Britain is excluded from the treaty change that is going through putting in place the new permanent bail-out mechanism. It took negotiation to get that deal, because we were in a mess beforehand.

[David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)]

I have two brief questions. The Prime Minister mentioned Sir Mervyn King’s remarks of last week. Does the Prime Minister agree with Sir Mervyn that the combination of austerity plus bail-out will never bring Greece to solvency? Secondly, the Prime Minister mentioned the stability of the banking system in advance of what I believe is an inevitable Greek default. In that context, is it not the case that future European Councils will be discussing whether to use the European financial stability facility or the European stability mechanism to shore up and recapitalise the banking system, rather than throwing good bail-out money after bad?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course the Greeks have a debt and solvency problem as well as a liquidity problem, but they have decided that they want to use liquidity to give themselves some time to deal with their debt problem. That is the choice they have made—and that is the choice the eurozone members are supporting—and I can quite see why they want to do it in that way. Let me also just make the following point, as I think a number of colleagues will ask similar questions: we must be very careful not to speculate about the financial situation faced by a fellow member state of the European Union.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the worst outcome for the British economy from the Greek crisis would be a disorderly and chaotic default by Greece and subsequent departure from the euro? What discussions did he therefore have with colleagues about preparing for that default, which is inevitable, and that departure, which is desirable, and in particular with President Václav Klaus, who has said that neither departure from the euro nor the dissolution of a monetary union need be disorderly? He dissolved the monetary union of the Czechs and Slovaks over a weekend without too much disruption.

[The Prime Minister]

As on many previous occasions, I had a very interesting meeting with President Klaus in Prague, at which he made that interesting point. However, dissolving a monetary union between the Czech Republic and Slovakia is very different from changing arrangements within Europe, where there are some very serious issues of equilibrium. The other point I would make is about those of us who do not want to join the euro, would never join the euro, and think that countries should maintain their own flexibilities. I have always held that view, but those of us who do hold that view should not misunderstand the fact that there would clearly be very big consequences for Britain were there to be a disorderly situation in Europe. To put it another way, it is much easier to stay out of the euro than to leave it.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Many of us worry about not only the direct consequences for Britain, but the possible indirect consequences, such as for the people of Cyprus, with which many British people have a direct connection. What analysis have the Government done of what the effects for the people of Cyprus would be, and is there any opportunity of reinvigorating the peace process so that there might no longer be a divided capital city of Nicosia?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes the good point that disorder in the eurozone will have knock-on consequences for other countries—he mentioned Cyprus—as well as for the country that is directly affected. Obviously, we are looking at all potential eventualities and all possible problems, and doing contingency planning for them. That is what we would expect the Treasury to do, and that is exactly what the Treasury—and the Bank of England and others—are doing. On getting the Cyprus peace process started, Alexander Downer, the special representative, worked extremely hard, but we have a lot more hard work to do to convince both sides that there needs to be a deal, and a deal soon.

[Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)]

I am delighted that the Government seem to be listening to this House and seeking to minimise eurozone debt liabilities. It is very encouraging that Ministers are no longer in thrall to the Europhile Whitehall mandarins who negotiated us into this mess. Will the Prime Minister assure us that he will not use the European financial stabilisation mechanism for any further eurozone bail-outs—and not just those for Greece—between now and 2013?

[The Prime Minister]

The first part of my hon. Friend’s question was a slight dig at the mandarins, but it is important to blame Ministers rather than officials for decisions that one does not like. I would place the blame squarely on those who sit on the Opposition Front Bench rather than on officials. I cannot really give him satisfaction on the second part of his question, because the EFSM is in place, it is subject to qualified majority voting and it will not go until 2013. Although I cannot give him that satisfaction, we have done the best we can by getting us out of that situation from 2013, when the treaty changes. In the meantime, we have kept ourselves out of the Greek situation.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Are not Italy and the Arab League now putting far more emphasis on trying to bring about a genuine ceasefire in Libya and would it not be better to do that instead of going for regime change? On the question of the nature of the Gaddafi regime, is it not a fact that we were selling arms to Gaddafi right up until the uprising?

[The Prime Minister]

On the hon. Gentleman’s final point, our approach to Gaddafi and Libya is clear. The Government have been utterly consistent and I do not agree with those who believe there should be a ceasefire now. There could be a ceasefire if Gaddafi agrees to do what he has to, which is to withdraw his troops from the towns and cities he occupied and to stop butchering his own people. For us unilaterally to declare a ceasefire, which was what the hon. Gentleman hinted at, would be a mistake. We have turned up the pressure on Gaddafi and we should keep it up, because it is beginning to tell.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

May I join the expressions of condolence to the Prime Minister and the family and friends of Mr Shale?

Is it not right that although it is not the UK’s duty to intervene to bail out the Greeks, it is absolutely in the United Kingdom’s interest that the European Union and the wider community took decisions to support the economies of Ireland, Portugal and Greece this year to prevent them from collapse? Is not the lesson from the history of those countries over the past year that they should follow the example of this country and take tough measures early to deal with the economic legacy? We should support the three new Governments in those countries as they deal with the failures of the past five years, just as this Government have sought to do.

[The Prime Minister]

First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he said about my constituency chairman, Christopher Shale.

The right hon. Gentleman is right that if one is in a debt situation, one has to deal with one’s deficit and debts and show a path back to solvency. That is what the Government have done. We have had to take some tough measures to show how we will pay down our deficit and debt and that is what other countries must do, too. The right hon. Gentleman is right that it is in Britain’s interest that we should do that and it is also in Britain’s interest that there should not be a disorderly outcome to what we are seeing in Europe.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

May I suggest that the next EU summit takes place on Filakio on the Greek-Turkish border, where members of the Select Committee on Home Affairs were told that 100,000 people crossed the border between Greece and Turkey last year? Their destination is not Athens but London, Paris or Stockholm. What further steps can we take to encourage our EU colleagues to help countries such as Greece, rather than letting Greece export its problem, and to get Frontex to do the job it is supposed to do?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right that we should support Frontex in its work and that we should support the action that Schengen members are taking to secure Europe’s external borders. That is vital because, as he says, many of those people do not stay in Greece but come to Paris or London. I do not think it is any contradiction to say that we should support that action while at the same time maintaining our own border controls and arrangements, particularly with the French, that have done us proud in recent years.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

The Prime Minister will have spoken for the overwhelming majority in this country when he expressed his anger at the proposed £280 million new European headquarters. Was any progress made at this Council meeting in implementing the coalition agreement’s aspiration to end the obscenity of the European Parliament moving between Brussels and Strasbourg, wasting a huge amount of money? Does he agree that anybody who does not agree with those points is, to use a phrase coined at that Dispatch Box, living in cloud-cuckoo land?

[The Prime Minister]

I am afraid that I cannot give my hon. Friend much satisfaction because the fact that the European Parliament moves between those two cities was not discussed at the European Council. Indeed, the problem that I have referred to in relation to the new building rather shows that there are too many people in Brussels who do not understand the need to cut their cloth according to what is available—by passing around a very expensive brochure to a very expensive new building.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

What are the dramatic consequences, as the Prime Minister just called them, on Britain and the rest of Europe of a Greek default and the break-up of the euro?

[The Prime Minister]

As I described in my statement, the consequences would be twofold. First, British banks, like banks around the world, hold a debt of other eurozone countries, including Greek debt. Clearly, there would be a consequence either if there were a default or if Greece were to leave the eurozone. That is self-evident.

Secondly, there is the knock-on effect from the countries that are more exposed than we are to Greek debt. As I have said, those of us who do not want Britain to join the euro should not use that as an excuse to say that this does not affect us—it does and that is why it is important that we help to encourage eurozone countries to take the right steps to sort out their issues. That is the very constructive approach that the Government have taken. I see no contradiction between that—making sure that we do not stand in the way of the eurozone’s sorting out its issues and helping with that—and at the same time keeping Britain out of the euro.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Further to the question of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is important that we retain the Dublin regulation so that we do not simply have asylum shopping all over the European Union?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that my hon. Friend is entirely right. The Dublin regulation has been effective at allowing us to return people who seek asylum in this country but who have come from another European country. One of the reasons it was suggested that the Dublin regulation had to change was because of repeated court cases against the Greeks regarding their asylum policy. It seems to me that the answer is for the Greeks to sort out their asylum arrangements rather than for the rest of Europe to have to give up the Dublin regulation.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

Did the Prime Minister have a chance, in the many bilateral conversations he will have had at the European Council, to discuss the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao’s visit to Europe at the moment—currently in London? Why will not the Prime Minister mention the name of Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel peace laureate who is in the Chinese gulag? Mrs Thatcher also raised the position of Sakharov in public and said, “Get him out of the gulag.” Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity now to say, “Liu Xiaobo should be out, not in prison”?

[The Prime Minister]

That is absolutely the Government’s view. I had very good meetings with Premier Wen this morning and a lunch with him and there has never been anything in the Britain-China dialogue that is off limits, including individual cases. Nothing is off limits, but it is right to have the dialogue at both the leader-to-leader level and the human rights level. As I said, nothing is off limits and we have a very frank relationship.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

May I thank the Prime Minister for standing up for the important principle concerning the Dublin process? Does he share my concern about the people traffickers who are stuffing unseaworthy boats full of people and casting them adrift in the Mediterranean? Does he agree that more needs to be done to patrol that area? Were there any discussions about positive moves to attack that problem?

[The Prime Minister]

There were long discussions about this issue because the Mediterranean countries in particular feel extremely strongly that we have got to do more to strengthen borders and Frontex, which can help to secure Britain’s perimeter. Britain is fully supportive of that, and we are not in the Schengen area, which means that we are protected from some of the problems that Schengen countries are suffering from. I think we have the best of both worlds—backing the action taken at Europe’s perimeter while at the same time being able to maintain tough and strict border controls for our own country.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In the midst of all the other pressing issues on which the Prime Minister has reported from the European Council, was there any acknowledgement of the gathering ravages of conflict in parts of Sudan, the humanitarian crisis facing people there yet again and the plight of aid workers and journalists from Europe in that situation? Does the duty to protect extend to them?

[The Prime Minister]

The issues of Sudan were not discussed at the European Council itself, but they will be discussed at the Foreign Affairs Council that is coming up soon. I raised the issue of Sudan with Premier Wen today, because of the close relationship between China and northern Sudan. It is important that the terms of the comprehensive peace agreement are properly stuck to and that we deliver that and the two-state solution that is being put in place, in which Britain has played a constructive part.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

May I welcome the commitment to exclude micro-businesses from EU regulations and urge the Prime Minister to continue his campaign to free up British risk-takers from Brussels’ red tape?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. As I said in my statement, so often at European Councils the Commission comes along with a list of things that countries should do, but does not ask enough, “What can we, the Commission, do to encourage deregulation and growth?” From 1998 to 2010, I think that 69% of new regulations came from Brussels. Clearly, Brussels needs to play its part in trying to exempt small businesses from at least some of those regulations. I shall keep pushing this agenda and I find growing support for it around the table at the Council of Ministers.

[Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

May I draw the Prime Minister’s attention to the conclusions of the European Council that there is recovery within the European zone, that that recovery is long and sustainable and that the Heads of State and the leaders of Governments will commit themselves, and have committed themselves, to do all that is necessary to ensure financial stability within the euro? Is that not in the interests of the United Kingdom?

[The Prime Minister]

Yes, it is in the interests of the United Kingdom. Fifty per cent. of our exports go to the EU and 40% go to eurozone countries. We want the eurozone to be sustainable and strong, and it has issues that it needs to sort out, so we do not stand in the way when eurozone countries want to do more together, as they are doing through the euro-plus pact. I still think that there is a big question mark about whether they are really gripping some of the issues that they need to resolve, but none the less it is in our interests, and that is why we are playing such a constructive role in it.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Following the Prime Minister’s interesting and welcome answer to the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) on the subject of Libya, will my right hon. Friend confirm that our mission is entirely humanitarian and there is the genesis of a deal here? If Gaddafi is prepared just to hold what he has in Tripoli, we could then achieve a compromise and the end to this war.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

Britain’s role is clearly set out in UN resolution 1973, which is to work with others to stop the attacks on civilians. It is not about regime change; it is for the people of Libya to decide who governs them and how they are governed. We have also always been clear that if Gaddafi declared a ceasefire and removed his troops from the towns and cities that he has invaded, that would be playing his part in resolving resolution 1973. Where I have always gone on and said that I cannot see a future for Libya where Gaddafi is still in place for the simple reason that if one looks at what this man has done during the last 100 days—although he has had every opportunity to pull back and put in place a ceasefire—all he has done to his own citizens is more shelling, attacking, murdering and sniping. So it is inconceivable to think of a future for Libya where he is still in a position of authority.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Given the significance of the European Council, it is a great shame that the Leader of the House still thinks that this is Back-Bench business and therefore we did not have a debate ahead of the Council meeting. Has the Prime Minister instructed his officials to demand that the Commission starts to prepare a legal framework for a country to leave the euro rather than just wait for the bad day and then have chaos?

[The Prime Minister]

On the extent of parliamentary debate, we have one of these statements every time there is a European Council, and we seem to be clocking up those at a rate of knots. We have also put in place the recommendations of the Wright Committee to ensure that Back Benchers have proper time for debate.

In terms of what happens next in the eurozone, I have set out the Government’s position. We do not want a disorderly breakdown in Europe. We are playing our full part in making sure that the eurozone sorts out its problems, and we are protecting Britain’s interests by ensuring that we are not contributing as a European country to a Greek bail-out. The Greeks have chosen their path and they will be voting in Parliament shortly. They have chosen the path where they want to put in place further measures so that they can stay inside the eurozone and find their way back to solvency in dealing with their debt problems. That is the choice they have made; it is the choice that is being supported by eurozone members. We are not in favour of disorder in the eurozone for the very good reasons that we have given.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House, in view of the increasing number of European summits, whether he managed to save any taxpayers’ money en route to the recent European Council summit?

[The Prime Minister]

As I am sure my hon. Friend knows, I use a variety of transport means. On this occasion, I flew by a scheduled plane to Prague for my meetings with the Czech Prime Minister and President and shared the Prime Minister’s aeroplane from Prague to Brussels, although I have to admit that the RAF kindly flew me home. I seem to remember in previous years different Ministers flying in different planes to the same summit. I think that sharing an aeroplane with another Prime Minister is a good way forward.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister tell the House the amount of British taxpayers’ money being made available to Greece indirectly through loans from the International Monetary Fund and confirm that, should a default occur that ultimately causes further defaults in Europe, that money might also be at risk?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, our share of the IMF is a little over 4%, so that is our contingent liability share of what the IMF dispenses. Secondly, the point about the IMF—this might also be of some reassurance to my Back-Bench colleagues—is that it will lend money only if it is confident that it is part of a programme that a country can repay, and that is important to consider. I say to those who are sceptical about our role in the IMF that Britain, as a leading economic power in the world, has an important role to play as a shareholder and board member of the IMF, and the idea that we should somehow be seeking to reduce that is wrong.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Seventy-two top businesses, including Google, Centrica and Unilever, have made a joint declaration saying:

“Moving to a 30% emissions reduction target is a win-win-win for Europe”

that will

“boost economic growth and create new jobs”.

Does the Prime Minister agree with those companies, and if so, is there anything he can do to ensure that his MEPs vote accordingly next week?

[The Prime Minister]

We do agree with those companies and want Europe to move to that target. We have supported that and put it in our own carbon budget in this country. I think that that is the right way ahead.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

Recent press reports indicate that 15 member states are questioning the wisdom of Schengen. Indeed, Denmark has reintroduced passport controls with Germany and Sweden. Were there any further discussions on the issue over the weekend, and is there any possibility of moving away from Schengen over the next few years?

[The Prime Minister]

There was a very lengthy discussion on the Schengen issues, and clearly there is some unhappiness among Schengen members about some of the pressures they face. There was a particularly long discussion about the fact that Romania and Bulgaria feel that they have now qualified for membership of Schengen and want to see that membership advanced. There are pressures within the Schengen area that clearly do not apply to the UK, but it is clear that some of the northern members feel that Schengen has not been operating in their interests in the same way in recent years, but the Council’s conclusions were pretty clear that Schengen is working and will continue.

[Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that in the event of any breakdown in the eurozone, in assessing the potential banking liabilities in this country and abroad, by far and away the best thing we can do is ensure that there is, first, transparency in the banking system and, secondly, a proper set of stress tests in place so that we know what the potential liability for UK banks might be in future?

[The Prime Minister]

I think my hon. Friend is entirely right. The Governor of the Bank of England spoke powerfully about this and has set out what the liabilities of British banks are in terms of Greece. We need the stress tests to be transparent, and we then need them to be acted on by making sure that those banks that need to build up their reserves do so. One of the things I wanted to secure at the European Council was to ensure that the conclusions were very tough on this, because at the same time as they are operating these stress tests and arguing for more capital to go into the banks, some European powers are trying to water down the Basel requirements. It seems to me to be completely illogical to try, on the one hand, to strengthen a banking system to withstand pressure in the eurozone, and then to start weakening it on the other. I am thankful that the conclusions are pretty clear on that point.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I welcome what the Prime Minister said about Croatia coming closer to the European union, but was there any reference to Turkey?

[The Prime Minister]

In terms of future membership of the EU, I think I am right in saying that the conclusions referred only to Croatia, which is completing its negotiations. There was a reference to Serbia’s European perspective, because with the arrest of Ratko Mladic I think that it has taken another step towards European membership. There was no specific mention of Turkey, but as the hon. Gentleman knows, I strongly support Turkey’s membership of the European Union.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the most successful defence of British interests at a European summit since the halcyon days of the noble Baroness Thatcher? Will he turn his negotiating firepower on the Commission’s proposal to increase its own resources tax base?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, although I would not put my efforts in the same class as the famous Fontainebleau negotiation, because the British rebate still benefits Britain to a huge extent—even after the Labour party signed a large portion of it away. But I do hope people agree that they were a good step forward to keep us out of the situation.

On the budget, we have secured a very strong letter to the European Commission about future financial perspectives, saying that effectively there should be nothing worse than a real-terms freeze. That is what we got other countries to commit to, and I am sure that Government Members, like me, would wish to go further, but we are laying down the baseline of a freeze going into a negotiation, and that is a pretty good start.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

What is causing disorder and instability in Europe is the fact that Greece is bankrupt. The whole world knows that, and nothing said in this Chamber will alter it or create greater instability in the world markets. If Greece can neither withdraw nor default, good money—our money—via the IMF, or European Union money via other mechanisms, will be wasted bailing it out. Why does not the Prime Minister discover his Eurosceptic self and lead an orderly withdrawal of Greece from the euro?

[The Prime Minister]

First, as I said earlier, the IMF cannot lend money unless it believes that a country can undertake a programme that will lead it to pay back that money. Secondly, Britain’s interests are protected, because we will not contribute via the financial mechanism to Greece. Thirdly—I have said this before but I do think it important—the Greeks want some time, via some extra liquidity, so that they can take steps to get themselves back on a path to fiscal sanity. Of course, people can doubt whether that can happen, but the Greeks want to be able to get people to pay their taxes, to reduce spending programmes and to privatise assets so that they can get back to a position of financial sanity. That is the decision they have taken; that is the decision taken by members of the eurozone; and that is what the eurozone members themselves will support.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

With the Greece situation showing what happens if a country does not control its deficit, does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree that the actions of Labour’s paymasters this Thursday show that they and the Opposition are more interested in dogmatic cobblers than harsh reality?

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The Bank for International Settlements, in its annual report published yesterday, identifies two solutions to the Greek sovereign debt crisis: either mutualising Greece’s debts through further eurozone bail-outs, or restructuring them. Does the Prime Minister agree with that analysis, and if so, which option does he favour?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course, everyone is free to speculate about the different paths that Greece might take or might like to take, but it is not for the Government of the UK to speculate about another country’s finances. The Greek Government have made their decision, backed by the eurozone and the European Council, to seek further austerity measures so that they can deal with their deficit. That is the decision they have taken, that is what is supported by eurozone money, and the IMF will lend money only if it believes that it can be paid back.

On deficits, let me just make the point before people get too over-confident that if we look at 2011, we find that the UK’s deficit is 8.6% compared with Greece at 7.4%. That to me underlines the importance of our domestic programme of dealing with our debts and our deficit—[Interruption]—and not of charging around, as the most annoying man in British politics is currently doing, and suggesting a £51 billion VAT cut.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend rightly acknowledges the tension between, on the one hand, the need to rebuild capital ratios in order to achieve resilience in the banking sector and, on the other, the crying domestic need to get banks lending again. Does he agree that part of the solution lies in tackling the barriers to entry for potential new lenders, and that that could start with Brussels looking again at the uneven regulation on overdrafts, on how banks are allowed to market them and on how other lenders handle short-term lending?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Of course, if we are asking banks to rebuild their balance sheets and their reserves, there is a tension with that compared with asking them to lend. One of the solutions, as he says, is to make sure that there are new entrants into the banking sector, and that is something we are keen to secure.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister said that the IMF would not have made the loan to Greece if it did not think it could be repaid. The Governor of the Bank of England seems to disagree about the likelihood of that loan being repaid. I think that what the people of this country want to know is how much British taxpayers will be liable for if Greece defaults.

[The Prime Minister]

The point I made is that Britain’s share of the IMF is a little over 4%. It is a broad requirement of the IMF to consider whether the money can be paid back before it makes the loan. That is not something that it has decided to do on this occasion; it is something that it has to do.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. On Libya, did the European Council discuss the position of Qatar and the United Arab Emirates in continuing to support the mission the longer it continues? As the Prime Minister will know, those two countries provide the largest Arab support to the mission at the moment.

[The Prime Minister]

We did not discuss that specific issue at the European Council, but I speak regularly to the leaders of both those countries. I praise them for the huge commitment they have made—not just in men and matériel, as it were, but in the political commitment to garnering support in the Arab world for keeping up pressure on Gaddafi. I think that what the Qataris and Emiratis have done has been absolutely superb.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

My constituents will warmly welcome what the Prime Minister said about asylum, given that anyone who wants to claim asylum in the UK has to do so in person in my constituency. Is it not true that under this Government the trend of applications to the UK is going down while in other countries it is going up, and that if we allowed people to choose where in the EU to apply, that trend would reverse overnight?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why the Dublin regulation is so important, because it enables us to return people who claim asylum in the UK to another safe country. As the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said, many of the people breaking into Europe’s borders do not want to stay in the first country they get to—they are trying to come to the UK. We need to be wise about this.

[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

May I congratulate the Prime Minister on his very significant success in largely keeping Britain out of this Greek bail-out, despite what the previous Chancellor agreed? Could he tell the House what has changed given that he was able to keep us out of this Greek bail-out when that did not prove possible with regard to Portugal?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that what changed was that because we were not involved in the first Greek bail-out, we were able to make the argument that we should not be involved in subsequent bail-outs—particularly because, as we are not members of the eurozone, we were not involved in the design of the new package. None the less, we were at risk, because there were countries that wanted to push the EFSM and its use for Greece, but we ran a very strong diplomatic campaign, using every lever at our disposal to persuade our good friends and allies in Europe that it would not be fair for Britain to pay, and we achieved that. It was not an insignificant achievement, because it took quite a lot of negotiating heft to get it done.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. With an estimated cost to UK taxpayers of £25 million for the new £280 million home for European Union summits, which represents an unnecessary expense at a time of cuts and deficit reduction across Europe, will he assure us that further spending by the European Union will match the manner of spending currently seen in member states?

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly give that assurance. We have actually managed to write into Council conclusions that Europe’s spending should mirror what is happening in member states. The decision about the new building was taken, I think, in 2003, when the Labour party was in power. All I can say is that it seems to me that the building in which we hold the European Council has got plenty of space for all of us, and indeed for new members. I think they need to get real in Brussels and in the European Union about recognising the sacrifices that many countries are making in terms of spending restraint, and they need to start showing a bit of spending restraint themselves.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I want to add my congratulations to the Prime Minister on standing up for Britain and British interests. On the answer he gave to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee about Greece paying attention to its asylum reception centres, I hope my right hon. Friend agrees that perhaps the people of Greece have other things on their minds. Is not this an opportunity for the European Commission, through Frontex, to spend its money and resources appropriately on helping member states rather than on some grandiose white elephant?

[The Prime Minister]

Frontex has an important role to play and it must be invested in for the reasons that my hon. Friend gives. My understanding is that one reason why there was pressure to get rid of the Dublin regulation was that Athens’ arrangements for dealing with asylum seekers have been judged insufficient by the courts. We need to speak to our friends in Greece to get them to sort out their problems, so that the asylum system can work better throughout Europe.

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

Further to the Prime Minister’s answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), I congratulate my right hon. Friend on getting the European Commission to identify regulations from which small businesses should be exempt. What does he expect to be the time scale in which that task is completed? Will he give an assurance that he will follow this matter through ruthlessly to ensure that the Commission delivers on the promise?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes the good point that getting these things to appear once in a set of European Council conclusions is a good start, but that we have to ensure that the European Commission follows through on that. That is why I am trying to build an alliance in Europe on this issue. The fact that several consecutive Council conclusions have mentioned it means that a programme will have to be put in place to get it done.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

The Prime Minister’s statement rightly said that the transitional national council is the only credible body in Libya and that there is now unity of purpose in the EU. Will he tell the House what the EU is doing in practical terms to support that body?

[The Prime Minister]

Cathy Ashton, the EU High Representative, has been to Benghazi, which I think was extremely worth while, and the EU has opened an office in Benghazi. We are trying to reposition the EU’s plan for engaging with its southern neighbourhood to ensure that it puts resources, of which it has lots, into countries that are reforming in a democratic direction. In the past, we have handed out far too much money without questions being asked and without proper conditionality. We are now ensuring that there is a conditional programme that rewards countries that are heading in a democratic direction.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for his statement. Would the accession of Croatia be likely to increase or decrease the burden of our contribution to the EU budget?

[The Prime Minister]

We are very hopeful that it would not have an impact. That has been one of our negotiating stances with regard to Croatia. I remind my hon. Friend that the letter to the European Commission that I signed, along with the German Chancellor, the French President, the Dutch Prime Minister and the Finnish Prime Minister, said:

“The action taken in 2011 to curb annual growth in European payment appropriations should therefore be stepped up progressively over the remaining years of this financial perspective and payment appropriations should increase, at most, by no more than inflation over the next financial perspectives.”

I know that my hon. Friend and many other Government Members would like us to go further, but to have lined up five countries behind an effective real-terms freeze over the next period is a very good start.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Yesterday, I had a meeting with a constituent who I know can be very difficult at times. She was exceptionally happy and was singing the praises of the Prime Minister because we will not be involved in the Greek bail-out, and because after 2013 we will not be involved in any bail-outs. However, Mrs Bone wanted to know whether, if a bail-out came before 2013, Britain would vote no in any case, despite qualified majority voting. She would be very happy if the Prime Minister gave that undertaking, and it would be really helpful for the Bone household if he could.

[The Prime Minister]

I feel that a very big part of my life is spent trying to give pleasure to Mrs Bone. On this occasion, I can go only so far.

[Mr Speaker]

We note the admirable self-restraint that the Prime Minister has demonstrated and we are grateful for it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

[Margot James]

Thousands of people in my constituency work hard for less than £26,000 a year. Does my right hon. Friend agree that everyone who believes in the necessity of capping benefits must vote for the Welfare Reform Bill tonight?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. We are right to reform welfare. Welfare costs have got out of control in our country. We want to ensure that work always pays, and that if people do the right thing we will be on their side. It cannot be right for some families to get more than £26,000 a year in benefits that are paid for by people who are working hard and paying their taxes. I would say that everyone in the House should support the Welfare Reform Bill tonight, and it is a disappointment that Labour talks about welfare reform but will not vote for it.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

When the Prime Minister signed off his welfare Bill, did he know that it would make 7,000 cancer patients worse off by as much as £94 a week?

[The Prime Minister]

That is simply not the case. We are using exactly the same definition of people who are suffering and who are terminally ill as the last Government. We want to ensure that those people are helped and protected. The point that I would make to the right hon. Gentleman is that if you are in favour of welfare reform, and if you want to encourage people to do the right thing, it is no good talking about it: you have got to vote for it.

[Edward Miliband]

As usual, the right hon. Gentleman does not know what is in his own Bill. Listen to Macmillan Cancer Support, which announced on 13 June: “Cancer patients to lose up to £94 a week”. Those are people who have worked hard all their lives and who have done the right thing and paid their taxes, yet when they are in need, the Prime Minister is taking money away from them. I ask him again: how can it be right that 7,000 people with cancer are losing £94 a week?

[The Prime Minister]

We are using precisely the same test as the last Government supported. All we see here is a Labour party desperate not to support welfare reform, and trying to find an excuse to get off supporting welfare reform. Anyone who is terminally ill gets immediate access to the higher level of support, and we will provide that to all people who are unable to work. That is the guarantee we make, but the right hon. Gentleman has to stop wriggling off his responsibilities and back the welfare reform he talks about.

[Edward Miliband]

The Prime Minister does not know the detail of his own Bill. Let me explain it to him. Because the Government are stopping contributory employment and support allowance after one year for those in work-related activity, cancer patients—7,000 of them—are losing £94 a week. I ask him again: how can that be right?

[The Prime Minister]

I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The question has been asked; the answer will be heard.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman is wrong on the specific point. First of all, as I have said, our definition of “terminally ill” is exactly the same as the one used by the last Government. Crucially, anyone out of work who has longer to live will be given the extra support that comes from employment and support allowance. Irrespective of a person’s income or assets, that will last for 12 months. The right hon. Gentleman is wrong, and he should admit that he is wrong. On a means-tested basis, this additional support can last indefinitely. That is the truth; he should check his facts before he comes to the House and chickens out of welfare reform.

[Edward Miliband]

So let us be clear about this: in his first answer the Prime Minister said that his policy was the same as the last Government’s; now he has admitted that the Government are ending contributory-based employment and support allowance after one year. Let me tell him what Macmillan Cancer Support says—[Interruption.] I think that Conservative Members should listen to what Macmillan Cancer Support has to say. Let me tell them; this is what it says—[Interruption.] I think it is a disgrace that Conservative Members are shouting when we are talking about issues affecting people with cancer. This is what Macmillan Cancer Support says—that many people

“will lose this…benefit simply because they have not recovered quickly enough.”

I ask the Prime Minister the question again: will he now admit that 7,000 cancer patients are losing up to £94 a week?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me try to explain it to the right hon. Gentleman again, as I do not think he has got the point—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I think it is a disgrace that Members on both sides of the House are shouting their heads off when matters of the most serious concern are being debated. I repeat what I have said before: the public despise this sort of behaviour. Let us have a bit of order.

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker. This is important, and I want to try to explain to the right hon. Gentleman why I think he has got it wrong, and why I think what we are proposing is right. Let me explain the definition of who is terminally ill; these are horrible things to have to discuss, but let me explain. It is—[Interruption.] Hold on a second. The definition is the same one—as I say, it is six months. Anyone out of work who lives longer than that will be given the extra support that comes from employment and support allowance. That is irrespective of a person’s income or their assets and it will last for 12 months, not the six months that the Leader of the Opposition claimed. On a means-tested basis, this additional support can last indefinitely. So as I say, it is the same test as under the last Government. It has been put in place fairly, we have listened very carefully to Macmillan Cancer Support, and we have also made sure that someone is reviewing all the medical tests that take place under this system. I know that the right hon. Gentleman wants to try to create a distraction from the fact that he will not support welfare reform, but I have answered his question, so he should now answer mine: why won’t you back the Bill?

[Edward Miliband]

In case the Prime Minister has forgotten, I ask the questions and he fails to answer them.

Let me try to explain it to him. He should listen to Professor Jane Maher, chief medical officer of Macmillan Cancer Support, who said:

“In my experience one year is simply not long enough for many people to recover from cancer. The serious physical and psychological side-effects can last for many months, even years, after treatment has finished. It is crucial that patients are not forced to return to work before they are ready.”

Macmillan Cancer Support and Britain’s cancer charities have been making this argument for months. I am amazed that the Prime Minister does not know about these arguments. Why does he not know about them? The House of Commons is voting on this Bill tonight. He should know about these arguments. I ask him again: will he now admit that 7,000 cancer patients are losing up to £94 a week?

[The Prime Minister]

I have answered the question three times with a full explanation. The whole point of our benefit reforms is that there are proper medical tests so that we support those who cannot work, as a generous, tolerant and compassionate country should, but we will make sure that those who can work have to go out to work, so that we do not reward bad behaviour. That is what the Bill is about. The Leader of the Opposition is attempting to put up a smokescreen because he has been found out. He made a speech this week about the importance of welfare reform, but he cannot take his divided party with him. That is what this is about: weak leadership of a divided party.

[Edward Miliband]

What an absolute disgrace, to describe talking about cancer patients in this country as a smokescreen! This is about people out in the country and cancer charities that are concerned on their behalf—and the Prime Minister does not know his own policy. It is not about people who are terminally ill; it is about people recovering from cancer who are losing support as a result of this Government. We know he does not think his policies through, but is this not one occasion on which we could say that if ever there was a case to “pause, listen and reflect”, this is it? Why does he not do so?

[The Prime Minister]

What we have seen this week is the right hon. Gentleman getting on the wrong side of every issue. On cutting the deficit, we now have the CBI, the Institute of Directors, the International Monetary Fund, his brother, and Tony Blair, on our side, and he is on his own. On welfare reform, we have everyone recognising that welfare needs to be reformed, apart from the right hon. Gentleman. On the health service—yes—we now have the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Physicians, the former Labour Health Minister and Tony Blair all on the side of reform and, on his own, the right hon. Gentleman: a weak leader of a divided party. That is what we have learned this week.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

On a recent visit to India, my constituent Baljinder Singh’s mother, Surjit Kaur, a British national, was kidnapped and then beheaded in a horrendous murder. May I ask the British Government to urge the Indian authorities to carry out a full, transparent and thorough investigation and bring to account those responsible for that horrendous murder so that my constituent and his family can get some justice for their mother?

[The Prime Minister]

I understand why my hon. Friend wants to raise this case, and on behalf of the whole House let me send our condolences to Mrs Kaur’s family. I fully understand and support their wish for justice to be brought to bear on the perpetrators. The Foreign Office has been providing the family with consular support, as my hon. Friend knows, and they will arrange to meet him and the family to see what further assistance we can give. However, responsibility for investigating crime committed overseas must rest with the police and judicial authorities in that country. We cannot interfere in the processes, but I take his point to heart.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q2. We know that the deficit was the price paid to avoid a depression caused by the bankers, but in March the forecast for the budget deficit was increased by £46 billion—£1,000 per person. Will the Prime Minister now at last accept that cuts are choking growth, that VAT is stoking inflation and that both are increasing the deficit? He is going too far, too fast, and he is hindering, not helping, the recovery. Yes or no?

[The Prime Minister]

The deficit is the price paid for Labour’s profligacy in office. In his memoirs, Tony Blair said—[Interruption.] I know that Labour Members do not want to hear about Tony Blair any more, and that is funny, really. He was a Labour leader who used to win elections, so they might want to listen to him. He said that by 2007, spending was out of control. That is the point. We need to get on top of spending, on top of debt and on top of the deficit. I understand that the Labour leader is trying to persuade the shadow Chancellor of that—well, good luck to him!

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

The Prime Minister will be aware that yesterday was the anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands by the forces of the Crown. Will he remind President Obama when he next sees the United States President that negotiations over the Falkland Islands with Argentina will never be acceptable to Her Majesty’s Government, and that if the special relationship means anything, it means that they defend British sovereignty over our own territories?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I am sure that everyone right across the House will want to remember the anniversary of the successful retaking of the Falkland Islands and the superb bravery, skill and courage of all our armed forces who took part in that action. We should also remember those who fell in taking back the Falklands. I would say this: as long as the Falkland Islands want to be sovereign British territory, they should remain sovereign British territory—full stop, end of story.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Q3. This week we have seen the Government change their mind on the NHS, on sentencing, on student visas and on bin collections, so will the Prime Minister tell us now whether he will change his mind over Government plans to force more than 300,000 women to wait up to two years longer before they qualify for their state pension?

[The Prime Minister]

All parties supported the equalisation of the pension age between men and women. That needed to happen. We also need to raise pension ages to make sure that our pension system is affordable. The point I would make is that because we have done that, we have been able to re-link the pension back to earnings, and as a result pensioners are £15,000 better off in their retirement than they would have been under Labour. I think that is a good deal and the right thing to do. If anyone in the Labour party wants to be serious about pension reform and dealing with the deficit, they should back these changes.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

Q14. I agree with the Government’s timetable for increasing the men’s state pension age to 66, because it happens gradually. However, I ask the Prime Minister to think again about the women’s state pension age, because the planned timetable has it going up far too quickly and leaves women of my age—those born in 1954—without enough time to plan for what could be two years’ extra work. Will the Government please look at this again?

[The Prime Minister]

I understand the concern, but the point I would make is that, as I said in the House last week, more than 80% of those affected will see their pension age come in only a year later, so a relatively small number are affected. The key thing is making sure that our pension system is sustainable so that we can pay out higher pensions. The House had a similar argument in Cabinet Office questions, about the sustainability of public sector pensions. We have to take these difficult decisions; they are right for the long term and they actually mean a better pension system for those who are retiring.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

Q4. Does the Prime Minister agree with the Institute for Fiscal Studies that with inflation at 4.5%—more than twice his Government’s target—it is hitting pensioners and low-income families the hardest?

[The Prime Minister]

The point about pensions is that there is the triple guarantee that they will go up by earnings, prices or 2.5%, whichever is higher, so it is not going to affect them in that way. Clearly, we want to see inflation come down. I think there is a shared agreement across the House, and it is right for the Bank of England to have that responsibility. I notice that the hon. Gentleman does not raise today the very welcome news that we have seen the biggest fall in unemployment in one month’s figures than we have seen at any time in a decade. I think it is time the Labour party started welcoming good news.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Q5. There is increasing concern within the House and across the country about the hidden suffering of trafficked children—and, indeed, retrafficked children. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is essential for a co-ordinated multi-agency approach right across the country—from borders to local authorities and local police forces, and including the excellent charitable organisations involved in this work—to be promoted urgently?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. I know how hard the all-party group works on this issue and I listen very carefully to what it has to say. One thing that is changing, which I hope will make a difference, is the formation of the National Crime Agency, which I think will bring greater co-ordination to such vital issues.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The Scottish National party won a landslide in the recent elections and a mandate to improve the powers of the Scottish Parliament, so will the Prime Minister respect the Scottish electorate and accept the Scottish Government’s six proposals for improvement in the Scotland Bill?

[The Prime Minister]

We listen very carefully to what people have to say, and of course we respect the fact that the SNP won a mandate in Scotland; we are responding extremely positively. The first point I make to the hon. Gentleman is that the Scotland Bill, currently before the House, is a massive extension of devolution. He shakes his head, but it is an extra £12 billion of spending power. We will be going ahead with that and we will look at all the proposals that First Minister Salmond has made. I take the Respect agenda very seriously, but it is a two-way street: I respect the views and wishes of the Scottish people, but they have to respect that we are still part, and I believe will always remain part, of a United Kingdom.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q6. Last Friday was the 90th anniversary of the Royal British Legion, next Monday is armed forces day, and on Tuesday 120 soldiers from 16th Air Assault Brigade will march through the Carriage Gates into Parliament to welcome them back from Afghanistan. Can we tell them, or will the Prime Minister repeat his assurance, that the armed forces covenant will now be written into law, for the first time in history?

[The Prime Minister]

Yes, I can give that assurance, and I am delighted that the Government and the Royal British Legion have agreed the approach we will take in the Armed Forces Bill, which is passing through the House. I am very glad that the House of Commons will be welcoming those soldiers from 16th Air Assault Brigade. Like the rest of our armed forces, they are the bravest of the brave and the best of the best. We cannot do too much for those people; that is why the armed forces covenant matters, and that is also why we kept our promise to double the operational allowance to soldiers serving in Afghanistan and other theatres.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q7. Millions of our constituents are once more facing big increases in their gas and electricity bills. Many will find it very difficult to make ends meet. What action will the Government take to help them?

[The Prime Minister]

We are taking a range of actions. Obviously, the fact that oil now costs $115 a barrel and gas prices have gone up by 50% over the last year has an impact, but we are putting £250 million into the warm home discount. We are funding a more targeted Warm Front scheme that will help 47,000 families this year. We are legislating so that social tariffs have to offer the best prices available. We are keeping a promise we made that Post Office card account holders should get a discount. We are keeping the winter fuel payment, and of course we permanently increased the cold weather payments. We did not just allow them to be increased in an election year; we are keeping those higher payments, which are very valuable to many of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Q8. Last week my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and I visited Walton Hall special school near Stafford. In our meetings, parents expressed their gratitude for the excellent teaching, but also their anxiety over provision for their children after the age of 19. I know of my right hon. Friend’s deep concern about this subject, so what encouragement can he give them?

[The Prime Minister]

First of all, we must support special schools. The pendulum swung too far against special education and in favour of inclusion. It is important that we give parents and carers proper choices between mainstream and special education. My hon. Friend raises an important point, which is that when disabled children become young adults, many parents want them to go on studying in further education colleges and elsewhere, yet currently the rules seem to suggest that once they have finished a course, that is it. Parents say to me, “What are we going to do now?” We have to find a better answer for parents whose much-loved children are living for much longer; they want them to have a purposeful and full life.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Q9. In the face of crippling energy price rises that are driving pensioners and vulnerable families into fuel poverty by the thousand every day under this coalition, is the Prime Minister struggling with his energy bill—or are any of the 21 other millionaires in his Cabinet struggling with their energy bills? When will he personally take a grip of the situation?

[The Prime Minister]

From reading the papers this week, the people who seem to be coining it are the ones who worked for the previous Government—but there we are. Clearly, fuel prices have gone up because of what has happened to world oil and gas prices, but this Government take seriously their responsibilities to try to help families. That is why we have frozen council tax, that is why we are lifting 1 million people out of tax, and that is why we have introduced the set of measures that I have described to try to help with energy bills. We have also managed to cut petrol tax this year, paid for by the additional tax on the North sea oil industry. I notice that although the Opposition want to support the petrol price tax, they do not support the increase in North sea oil tax. That is absolutely typical of a totally opportunistic Opposition.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

The Prime Minister will be aware that this is national diabetes week. This year’s theme is “Let’s talk diabetes”, to encourage people with the condition to speak out and not to feel stigmatised or worried about being discriminated against or joked about in school or in the workplace. Will the Prime Minister please support this campaign?

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly support the campaign. My hon. Friend makes the extremely good point that many people with diabetes find the illness embarrassing and something that they do not want to talk about, yet it affects more and more people. We have to find a way to encourage people to come forward and say that there is nothing abnormal or wrong about it. We need to help people to manage their diabetes, especially because we want them to have control over their health care and to spend less time in hospital, if at all possible. I fully support the campaign, and I think that we need to look at the long-term costs of people getting diabetes and recognise that there is a big public health agenda, particularly around things such as exercise, that we need to get hold of.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Q10. The Prime Minister will know that this is my first opportunity to ask him a question. I stand here fresh and full of hope, so I shall give him one more chance to answer this question. People in my constituency and throughout the country face the enormous increases in their energy bills announced by Scottish Power. They need help now. When will the Prime Minister keep the promise that he made in opposition to take tough action on excessive energy prices?

[The Prime Minister]

As I said some moments ago, we are taking action. There is only a certain amount that can be done when fuel prices have gone up by as much as they have over the past year—a 50% increase in oil and gas. We do have the warm home discount and the Warm Front scheme. We are making sure that when there are special tariffs, companies must offer them to users; that makes a difference. There is also the point about Post Office card account holders. At present they do not get all the discounts available to people who pay by direct debit, but we are ensuring that they will get those discounts. The hon. Lady shakes her head, but that is a lot more done in one year than the previous Government did in 13.

[Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend congratulate Cluny Lace in Ilkeston, which made part of the lace on the Duchess of Cambridge’s wedding dress? It is the last traditional lace factory in Erewash, and our town centres have declined in recent years as a result of the loss of such factories. Does my right hon. Friend therefore agree that the review by Mary Portas aimed at revitalising our town centres has come at a perfect time? May I invite the Prime Minister and Ms Portas to visit Erewash as part of the review?

[The Prime Minister]

I shall be delighted to come to my hon. Friend’s constituency. I did not know that her constituents were responsible for the lace on the Duchess’s incredible dress, so I shall leave today’s session enriched by that knowledge. We want a growth in manufacturing and production in Britain. What we are seeing in our economy—difficult as the months ahead inevitably will be—is a growth of things made in Britain, whether that means cars, vans, or indeed lace for people’s dresses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Gapes]

Is it not time that the Prime Minister reopened the defence review and did yet another U-turn on his failed policies?

[The Prime Minister]

He is called Mark Stanhope, if that helps.

I had a meeting with the First Sea Lord yesterday at which he agreed that we can sustain the mission for as long as we need to, and those were exactly the words that the Chief of the Defence Staff used yesterday, because we are doing the right thing. I want one simple message to go out from every part of the Government, and indeed from every part of the House of Commons: time is on our side. We have NATO, the United Nations and the Arab League. We have right on our side. The pressure is building militarily, diplomatically and politically, and time is running out for Gaddafi.

On the defence review, I would simply say that for 10 years the Labour party did not have a defence review, but now it wants two in a row. At the end of the review we have the fourth highest defence budget of any country in the world. We have superb armed forces who are superbly equipped, and they are doing a great job in the skies above Libya.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

By the time Prime Minister’s questions finishes, 450 children will have died from preventable disease and famine. Is it not the case that increasing Britain’s aid budget is very much the right thing to do, and will save millions of lives across the world?

[The Prime Minister]

I very much welcome the support from my hon. Friend for the policy of increasing our aid budget and meeting the target of 0.7% of gross national income. There are good reasons for doing this. First, we are keeping a promise to the poorest people of the poorest countries of the world, and we are saving lives. Yes, of course things are difficult at home, but we should keep that promise even in the midst of difficulties. Secondly, we are making sure that our aid budget is spent very specifically on things like vaccinations for children that will save lives, so the money that we announced this week will mean a child vaccinated every two seconds and a life saved every two minutes. The last point that I would make to anyone who has doubts about this issue is that as well as saving lives, it is also about Britain standing for something in the world and standing up for something in the world—the importance of having a strong aid budget, saving lives and mending broken countries, as well as having—

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

Q12. In this carers week, when we celebrate the contribution of Birmingham’s care assistants and the loving families who look after their loved ones, will the Prime Minister join me in condemning Birmingham city council for cutting care for 4,100 of the most vulnerable in our city, branded unlawful by the High Court? What does he intend to do to ensure that never again will Birmingham city council fail the elderly and the disabled?

[The Prime Minister]

Everyone in the House should welcome the fact that it is carers week. I will be having a reception in No. 10 tonight to celebrate carers week with many people who take part and who are carers. This Government are putting in £400 million to give carers more breaks and £800 million specifically to make sure that those looking after disabled children get regular breaks. What we have in Birmingham is an excellent Conservative and Liberal Democrat alliance doing a very good job recovering from the complete mess that Labour made of that city for decade after decade.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

Last night on Channel 4 there was a documentary called “Sri Lanka’s Killing Fields”, showing the atrocities committed by the Sri Lankan Government against the Tamil people, which resulted in about 40,000 people being killed. Will the Prime Minister join me in calling for justice for the Tamil people, and for the people who lost their lives?

[The Prime Minister]

I did not see the documentary, but I understand it was an extremely powerful programme. It refers to some very worrying events that are alleged to have taken place towards the end of that campaign. The Government, along with other Governments, have said that the Sri Lankan Government needs that to be investigated, and the UN needs it to be investigated. We need to make sure that we get to the bottom of what happened, and that lessons are learned.

[Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)]

Q13. The Prime Minister will be aware of the shambles of corporate governance that is the Eurasian Natural Resources Corporation. I would not expect him to comment specifically on that, but does he agree, on behalf of millions of pensionholders and small shareholders across the country, that high standards of corporate governance in the City of London are critical, as is the role of the Financial Reporting Council?

[The Prime Minister]

I am aware of the problem. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which is that of course we want companies to come to London to access capital and float on the main market or the AIM market. It is one of the attractions of Britain that we are an open global economy, but when those companies come, they must understand that we have rules of corporate governance that are there for a reason, and they need to obey those rules. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will address that not only in his speech tonight, but in the papers that we will be publishing in subsequent days.

[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that if the coalition Government had not adopted the economic policy that they did, but listened to the advice of the shadow Chancellor instead, mortgage interest rates could be 5% higher than they are now?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, which is that in this country today, tragically, we still have Greek levels of Government debt but German levels of interest rates. That is an enormous monetary boost to our economy, and we should all welcome the cut in unemployment today. If we had not taken action on the deficit and proved to the markets that we had a way of paying back the debt and the deficit, we would be straight back in the mess that that lot left us in.

Ninetieth Birthday of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I beg to move,

That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty on the ninetieth birthday of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, to assure Her Majesty of the great pleasure felt by this House on so joyful an occasion.

That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by such Members of the House as are of Her Majesty’s most Honourable Privy Council or of Her Majesty’s Household.

That a Message be sent to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, to offer His Royal Highness the warmest good wishes of the House upon the occasion of his ninetieth birthday, expressing the gratitude of the nation for his lifetime of service to the country and the Commonwealth and praying that His Royal Highness may long continue in health and happiness.

That Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Sir George Young and Edward Miliband do wait upon His Royal Highness with the said Message.

This week we celebrate the 90th birthday of a remarkable man who has given years of service to our country. Someone who has defended his nation in time of war. A man who has stood alongside Her Majesty the Queen for more than six decades. A man who has given his time, effort and passion to many great causes up and down the country, across the Commonwealth and indeed around the world. I refer, of course, to His Royal Highness Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh.

Since the time of William the Conqueror there has never been a consort who has served for so long at the side of a monarch and, as such, Prince Philip has seen extraordinary events in life from the end of rationing to man landing on the moon, and from the end of the cold war to the beginning of peace in Northern Ireland. Of course, along the way he has had to put up with listening to the views of no fewer than 12 Prime Ministers. Through it all he has been there for Her Majesty the Queen as a constant companion and source of rock solid strength. Throughout it all he has served us, the British people, with an unshakeable sense of duty. He has conducted more than 300 public engagements a year and delivered more than 5,000 speeches.

Over those years, he has also made more than 600 visits to more than 140 countries. In most of those, he is heralded and much respected as the consort of a monarch, but, of course, there is one—Tanna, part of Vanuatu—where he is treated slightly differently. In fact, no public event in that far off part of the Pacific Islands is complete without the islanders holding aloft pictures of Prince Philip, whom they worship as a god.

Of course, His Royal Highness served this country long before his royal duties began. The Duke of Edinburgh spent 14 years on active service in the Royal Navy. During the second world war he served with the Mediterranean and Pacific fleets. He was awarded the Greek war cross of valour and was mentioned in dispatches when he manned the searchlights during HMS Valiant’s triumph at the battle of Cape Matapan. In a fitting tribute to his outstanding abilities, the late Lord Lewin, the First Sea Lord, said he would most certainly have gone right to the top of the Navy.

Today the Duke of Edinburgh is a patron of more than 800 organisations. Looking through that long list, one passion shines through: supporting young people by giving them the confidence to stand on their own two feet. It was this passion that led him to initiate the Duke of Edinburgh awards, recognised around the world as the gold standard in leadership for young people. Since 1956, about 6 million young people in 120 countries have won awards by building skills for work and life and proving that they can take responsibility for themselves and their communities. To all of us in this Chamber who believe in the value of helping to change people’s lives for the better, that is an inspiration. His is a huge achievement for which this country and many others owe the Duke a deserved debt of gratitude.

He also has an extraordinary passion for wildlife, nature and the environment. As president of the World Wildlife Fund, he helped to save many of the world’s most beautiful creatures from extinction, including the snow leopard and the black rhino.

The Duke is also a passionate family man and I know that all of us would like to congratulate him on becoming a great-grandfather for the first time with the birth of Savannah Phillips at the end of last year.

He has done all these things in his own inimitable way, with a down-to-earth, no-nonsense approach that I believe the British people find endearing. Of course, many of us who give public speeches would be honoured to have a book published of our most famous sayings. There have been several published of his. My own favourite was when, after a long flight, the umpteenth eager-to-please official asked him, “How was your flight?” He replied, “Have you been on a plane? Well, you know how it goes up in the air and then comes back down again? Well, it was just like that.”

I would like to go on for a great deal longer but I am reminded of His Royal Highness’s remark about sermons that overrun. It is not just sage advice for clergy in the pulpit but, I think, probably for us in this place, too. As the Duke put it, “The mind cannot absorb what the backside cannot endure.” With that in mind, let me give the final say to the person who knows him best of all, Her Majesty the Queen. She said in a speech to mark their golden wedding anniversary that he had been her

“strength and stay all these years”

and that she and

“his whole family, and this and many other countries, owe him a debt greater than he would ever claim, or we shall ever know.”

I am sure the whole House will want to join me in wishing His Royal Highness health, happiness and above all a very special 90th birthday.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 18 May.

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to Marine Nigel Mead from 42 Commando Royal Marines, who was killed by an improvised explosive device in Afghanistan on Sunday. He was a selfless, enthusiastic and committed Marine who has made the ultimate sacrifice in the service of our country. Our thoughts must be with his family, his friends and his colleagues.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, this afternoon I will be travelling to Dublin as part of this week’s historic state visit by Her Majesty the Queen.

[Mr Hollobone]

May I associate myself and my constituents with the Prime Minister’s words of condolence?

Under rules introduced in 2003, illegal migrants who manage to avoid the authorities for 14 years can apply for permanent stay, have full access to the welfare system and even obtain a British passport. Given that in the past eight years nearly 10,000 such migrants have won such rights, and with an estimated half a million illegal immigrants in Britain today, will the Prime Minister seek to change those rules and restore some sanity to Britain’s border controls?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We have pledged to break the link between temporary migration and permanent settlement in the UK because we believe that settling in Britain should be a privilege, rather than an automatic right for those who have evaded the authorities for a certain amount of time. We are going to consult on further measures, including the future of the 14-year rule he mentioned, and make announcements later this year. We have already announced that there will be tighter rules for those wanting to settle here, and have already implemented a new income and English language requirement for skilled workers who have been here for more than five years.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

May I start by joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Marine Nigel Mead from 42 Commando Royal Marines? He showed exceptional bravery and courage, like all our troops in Afghanistan, and our thoughts are with his family and friends.

The role of the Justice Secretary is to speak for the nation on matters of justice and crime. This morning he was on the radio suggesting that there were “serious” rapes and other categories of rapes. Would the Prime Minister like to take this opportunity to distance himself from the Justice Secretary’s comments?

[The Prime Minister]

First of all, let me say that rape is one of the most serious crimes there is, and it should be met with proper punishment. Anyone who has ever met a rape victim and talked with them about what that experience means to them and how it stays with them for the rest of their life could only want it to have the most serious punishment possible. The real disgrace in our country is that only 6% of rapes reported to a police station end in a conviction. That is what we have to sort out. I have not heard the Justice Secretary’s interview, but the position of the Government is very clear: there is an offence called rape and anyone who commits it should be prosecuted, convicted and punished very severely.

[Edward Miliband]

Let me tell the Prime Minister what the Justice Secretary said this morning. He was asked about the average sentence a rapist gets. The interviewer said, “A rapist gets five years,” and then the Justice Secretary said in reply, “That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15-year-olds”. He went on to say that there were categories of “forcible rape” and “serious rape”. The Justice Secretary cannot speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that.

[The Prime Minister]

As I said, I have not heard the interview, but the point is this: it should be a matter for the court to decide the seriousness of the offence and the sentence that ought to be passed. I served on the Sexual Offences Bill under the last Government, and we looked at all the issues about whether we should try to differentiate between different categories of rape—and I seem to remember that one of the right hon. Gentlemen now sitting on the Opposition Front Bench was leading the debate for the Government. We decided, as a House of Commons, not to make that distinction. What matters is this: do we get more cases to court, do we get more cases convicted, and do we get more cases sent down for decent sentences? That is the concern we should have.

[Edward Miliband]

When the Prime Minister leaves the Chamber, he should go and look at the comments of the Justice Secretary—and let me just say to him very clearly: the Justice Secretary should not be in his post at the end of today. That is the first thing the Prime Minister should do. The second thing he should do is to drop this policy, because this policy, which they are defending, is the idea that if you plead guilty to rape you get your sentence halved. That could mean that rapists spend as little as 15 months in prison. That is not an acceptable policy, and the Prime Minister should drop it.

[The Prime Minister]

I think that what the Leader of the Opposition might be doing is jumping to conclusions on this issue. The point is this: there is already a plea bargaining system in Britain, for one third, and we are consulting on whether to extend the system to make it even more powerful. We have not yet decided which offences it should apply to, or how it should be brought in, because there is a consultation, but the aim of plea bargaining—it is worth remembering this, because plea bargaining is used in very tough criminal justice systems, such as America’s—is to ensure that more people get prosecuted, more people get convicted, and it actually saves the victim from having to go through a court process and find out at the end that the culprit is going to submit a guilty plea at the last minute. That is what the Government are looking at, and when we have listened to the consultation we will announce our conclusions—but he needs to be patient until we do that.

[Edward Miliband]

We are getting used to this. As we saw on health, when there is a terrible policy the Prime Minister just hides behind the consultation. Frankly, it is just not good enough. Let me tell him what people think of this policy. The judges are saying the policy is wrong, End Violence Against Women is saying that it is the wrong policy, and his own Victims Commissioner says that the policy is “bonkers”. I know that he is in the middle of a consultation, but I would like to hear his view on this policy, which he should drop.

[The Prime Minister]

The terrible fact that the right hon. Gentleman refers to is that only 6% of rape cases are prosecuted and end in a conviction. That is after 13 years of the Labour party running the criminal justice system, so that is the improvement we want to see. He wants to know my view: my view is get out there, convict, prosecute and send these people down for a decent period of time. That is what we should be doing. Rape is such a serious offence, so he should wait for the outcome of the consultation, rather than just jumping on the bandwagon.

[Edward Miliband]

This is about the way the Prime Minister runs his Government, because yesterday the Justice Secretary said that this

“proposal is likely to survive”—[Official Report, 17 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 150]

the consultation, and the prisons Minister was defending the policy. People are rightly angry about this policy; they think that it is the wrong policy. All I am asking is something very simple: why does not the Prime Minister give us his view?

[The Prime Minister]

I have given you my view, and I will give you my—[Interruption.] I have. I want to see more people prosecuted and convicted for rape, and we are going to take steps to make sure that happens. But I will give you my view on something else—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Yes, which is this: I think there is merit in having a plea bargaining system, which we have already—and which should be discretionary, to try to make sure that we convict more. What we had under the previous Government was a mandatory release of all prisoners, irrespective of what they had done. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] Yes, the right hon. Gentleman sat in the Cabinet that let 80,000 criminals out of prison. That was not a discretionary policy; it was a mandatory policy—and it was a disgraceful policy.

[Edward Miliband]

Does the Prime Minister not realise what people are thinking of him on crime? Before the election he made a whole series of promises, and now he is breaking them one by one. He was out of touch on anonymity for rape victims, and now he is out of touch on sentencing for rape. He is cutting the number of police officers—cutting 12,000 police officers. Why does he not go back to the drawing board on crime, and get rid of his Justice Secretary?

[The Prime Minister]

Talking of broken promises, I remember the Leader of the Opposition saying at his party conference, about Ken Clarke:

“I’m not going to say he’s soft on crime.”

Well, that pledge did not last very long. One of these days the Labour party is going to realise that opposition is about more than just jumping on a bandwagon and picking up an issue; it is about putting forward a serious alternative and making some serious points. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I call Sir Alan Haselhurst.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

This question is by way of contrast, Mr Speaker. In harmony with the priority being given by the Government to strengthening relations with the Commonwealth, does my right hon. Friend attach importance to the particular role of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and will he do his best to find a way of marking that when the centennial conference of the CPA takes place in London in July?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising this issue. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association is an important part of the Commonwealth. For the celebration of that anniversary I have had an extremely attractive invitation to go along and say a few words, and I will certainly see whether I can.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Q2. Why is the Prime Minister giving private and confidential NHS prescription records of 9 million British citizens to multinational private companies that will no doubt show no mercy with that information?

[The Prime Minister]

What we are trying to do is clean up the mess of Labour’s NHS IT programme, which cost billions of pounds and is still struggling. We are desperately trying to get it under control and make sure we can save money to put into health care.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Q3. Will the Prime Minister join me in sending a message of support to Tony Blair’s former speechwriter, Peter Hyman, who is seeking to set up one of the coalition’s excellent new free schools in east London? [Interruption.]

[The Prime Minister]

It is funny that Labour Members do not want to listen to Tony Blair’s speechwriter, as they listened with such rapt attention for so many years to what he said. I welcome the free schools policy, and I very much welcome what Peter Hyman is doing in trying to establish a free school. I think this is an excellent policy. Yesterday we had a new policy from Labour when the shadow Education Secretary said that just because he is opposed to the free schools policy, that does not mean he is opposed to every free school. We are back to the days of John Prescott, being told that we cannot have new good schools because everyone might want to go to them. We are back to old Labour.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does not the visit of Her Majesty the Queen to the Irish Republic this week demonstrate not just her own personal courage in carrying out such a visit in the face of severe dissident terrorist threats, but also, whatever reservations some of us may have about one particular aspect of her visit, the extent of the improvement in relations between the Irish Republic and the United Kingdom, of which Northern Ireland is a proud part, as well as a recognition of Northern Ireland’s status? Is it not also an opportunity to build on co-operation to fight the dissident terrorists who still plague us in Northern Ireland and in the Republic?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman is right in every respect. This is a remarkable visit that demonstrates that the relationship between Britain and the Republic of Ireland is strong, and has probably never been stronger, with the successful devolution of policing and justice that made the visit possible. The scenes on our television screens last night of the visits that Her Majesty made to heal the wounds of the past, but also to look to a very bright future between our two countries, are remarkable and hugely welcome.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Q4. Since it is the people of this country who have paid the enormous bills for bank failures, should not they get some reward for their sacrifice by being given shares when the banks are eventually denationalised? Will the Prime Minister look at the imaginative scheme put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams), which is now backed by The Sun newspaper, to do that?

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly look at all the possible ways of putting the nationalised banks back into the private sector. I personally strongly support the idea of widening share ownership, so we will look carefully at the scheme that the right hon. Gentleman suggests. We also have to make sure that we secure value for money for the taxpayer as we try to fill in the great deep pit of debt that we were left by Labour.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Today hundreds of women in their 50s, supported by Age UK, have come to Parliament to protest against unfair changes to their pensions. The coalition agreement says that there will be no increase in women’s state pension age before 2020, yet under the Pensions Bill that increase will start in 2018. Why the U-turn?

[The Prime Minister]

Yet again, here is another reform important for making sure that our pensions system is affordable and sustainable that Labour has completely given up on. What we are doing with pensions is linking them back to earnings—something that was promised repeatedly but never done—and making sure that our pensions system is sustainable for the long term. That is what we are delivering—something never done by Labour.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q5. The people of England have almost as much to lose from any move towards Scottish independence and the break-up of the Union as the people of Scotland. Will the Prime Minister therefore give us all a vote in a referendum on the subject?

[The Prime Minister]

I have made my views clear: if the Scottish Parliament wanted to hold a referendum, although I think that that would be a retrograde step, we would have to grant it. I would then join with everyone in this House and beyond who supports our United Kingdom to ensure that we keep it together. That is the process that we should go through, and it would involve a vote for people in Scotland, not for those in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

Q6. I am a very generous person, so I compliment the Government on eventually deciding to sign up to the EU human trafficking directive. A recent report by the Children’s Commissioner for Scotland said that he could identify 200 children trafficked into Scotland, and ECPAT UK has stated that 1,000 children have been trafficked into the rest of the UK. Both bodies recommend that the Government appoint an independent human trafficking rapporteur and strengthen the guardianship system for children. Given that the Government have cut specialist teams in the Home Office and the police in this area, how can they assure the House that the UK is prepared for the responsibility that comes with signing up to the EU directive?

[The Prime Minister]

I will look carefully at what the hon. Gentleman says, because I know that he has a deep concern about trafficking, as do many Members of our House. Frankly, the fact that children and young adults are trafficked for sex and other purposes in our world is completely disgraceful, and we have to stamp it out. We have signed up to the directive, as he said, and we were already complying with the terms of the directive. We must do everything we can to stamp out this repulsive practice.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Q7. What recent discussions he has had with the Leader of the Opposition on the future of the nuclear deterrent.

[The Prime Minister]

Although I have discussions on many issues with the Leader of the Opposition, the nuclear deterrent has not recently been one of them. That is partly because the Government’s policy is absolutely clear: we are committed to retaining an independent nuclear deterrent based on Trident. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary will make a statement to Parliament today announcing our decision to proceed with initial gate.

[Dr Lewis]

I am grateful to the Prime Minister for repeating our commitment to the future of Trident, its renewal and a continuous at-sea deterrent. Would he give his blessing to hon. Members in the Conservative party and on the Labour Benches who, like him, think that the nuclear deterrent should be above party politics, if they formed an alliance on this important issue, just as we did so successfully on the alternative vote?

[The Prime Minister]

I agree with my hon. Friend that it would be better if we could elevate this issue above party politics. Indeed, when we voted to go ahead with Trident it was on the basis of a Labour motion that was supported by most Labour MPs and almost all Conservative MPs. However, I have a feeling that my hon. Friend would never be satisfied, even if I placed a Trident submarine in the Solent, opposite his constituency, and handed him the codes—something, I am afraid, that I am simply not prepared to do.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Why continue to waste billions on a national virility symbol that has played no part in any of the military operations that we have taken part in over the last seven years, and is unlikely to play any part in the future? Does it not give justification and encouragement to other countries in acquiring their own nuclear weapons?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not accept either part of the hon. Gentleman’s argument. First, we are signatories to the non-proliferation agreement and are strong supporters of it. Secondly, the point of our nuclear deterrent is just that—deterrence. It is the ultimate insurance policy against blackmail or attack by other countries. That is why I believe it is right to maintain and replace it.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Q8. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is no case for giving the EU powers over taxation, least of all in the present circumstances? Will he assure me that the Government will simply say no to the proposed EU directive for a common corporate tax base?

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly reassure my hon. Friend. Those in the EU who want to see further tax harmonisation usually make one of two arguments: either they want to raise more money for the EU, which I do not agree with, or they are trying to reduce tax competition within the EU, which I also do not agree with. It is important that we keep our competitive tax rates and do not give the EU further coverage over our tax base.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

Q9. The ministerial code is extensive in its guidelines and rules governing Ministers. What is the policy of the Prime Minister and his Government on Ministers who break the ministerial code?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously, breaking the ministerial code is an extremely serious offence. I know that the hon. Gentleman has asked questions before about the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), and let me be clear that the Employment Minister played no part in the decision-making process to award Work programme contracts. I want to make that point clear to the hon. Gentleman, as he has asked me the question.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Q10. May I echo the tribute that my right hon. Friend paid to Nigel Mead, the young Royal Marine who was serving with 3 Commando Brigade, which is based in my constituency?Given the recent inflation figures and the loose monetary conditions that contributed to the causes of the credit crunch, should my right hon. Friend now lead a fundamental debate reviewing the inflation target, and the operation and workings of the Monetary Policy Committee?

[The Prime Minister]

The point that I would make to my hon. Friend is that one of the fundamental causes of the problems during the credit crunch was the poor regulation of our banking system and credit. We have taken steps to put that right by putting the Bank of England back at the pinnacle of that system, after the failure of the system put in place by the Labour party. On inflation, I strongly support monetary policy being independent and established by the Bank of England. I do not want to go back to the bad old days of the Treasury setting interest rates. I think it is better to have that power vested in the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Q11. A number of my constituents with very serious health conditions are being declared fit for work under the Department for Work and Pensions work capability assessment. Can the Prime Minister give me a guarantee that the assessment will be fit for purpose by the time of the big move from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance, especially in the light of cuts at the DWP?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course we want to get the tests right, but I believe that the tests are showing that it has been wrong to leave so many people on benefits for so long without proper assessment. Of course, we can always improve the processes, and we will ensure that we do that as we go along, but I think it is absolutely right to go through people on all benefits and ask whether they can work, and what help they need to work. Then if they are offered work that they do not take, frankly, they should not go on getting benefits.

[Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

Now that there is to be a full investigation into the abduction or murder of Madeleine McCann, is there not a much stronger case for a full investigation into the suicide or murder of Dr David Kelly?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is raising two issues. First, on the issue of Madeleine McCann, it is welcome that the Metropolitan police have decided to review the case and the paperwork. On the issue of Dr David Kelly, I thought the results of the inquest that was carried out and the report into it were fairly clear, and I do not think it is necessary to take that case forward.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Q12. Is the Prime Minister aware that the most revealing statistic in recent days has been the fact that in recession-hit Britain, the billionaires have gone up by 20—an increase of 37%—in the first year of this Tory rule, while in the real world inflation is going through the roof and thousands of blind people are having to march through the streets of London to hang on to their disability living allowance? What a savage indictment of this lousy, rotten Tory Government, propped up by these pathetic Liberals—[Interruption.]

[The Prime Minister]

I can see that the hon. Gentleman enjoyed that—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear the Prime Minister’s reply.

[The Prime Minister]

I think that the most revealing statistics today are the unemployment figures, which show that employment in our country is up by 118,000, that unemployment is down by 36,000, and that youth unemployment fell by 30,000. Those are the statistics of what is happening in the real world, rather than in the dinosaur land that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) still inhabits.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

Q13. Hard-working families in Broxtowe want a cap on benefits, but the Labour party will vote against such a cap. Would the Prime Minister help us in this way: who is living in the real world and who is representing real families—us or them?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. We are proposing a cap of £26,000 on the benefits that a family can receive. People would have to earn something like £40,000 to get that level of income. Frankly, some people will be watching this and thinking, “I’m earning £15,000”—or £16,000, or £17,000—“Why am I paying my taxes to go to families that are getting more than £26,000 in benefits?” To answer my hon. Friend’s question, the Government are in touch with what people want, and the Labour party seems to have gone to sleep.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

What can the Prime Minister say to the people of Sunderland, the largest city in the north-east, and to my constituents, about the news that the Olympic torch is not stopping in the city?

[The Prime Minister]

I have to say that I was not aware of that. Perhaps I can look into the route that the Olympic torch will take—and if it is possible to divert it via Sunderland, I will certainly do my best.

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

Q14. An increasing number of European Court of Human Rights and European Court of Justice judgments are deeply unpopular in our country, and intrude on what should be the preserve of member states. Will the Prime Minister assure my constituents that he will use every ounce of his considerable personal authority to support efforts to push back those overbearing institutions?

[The Prime Minister]

I agree with my hon. Friend. We are leading the process of trying to reform the ECHR so that it pays more attention to the decisions of national Parliaments and, crucially, national courts. As for the ECJ, one thing that we must do is stop the transfer of further powers from Westminster to Brussels. That is why we are putting in place the referendum lock.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Prime Minister think that the power and influence of this House of Commons will be diminished or increased by the reforms to the House of Lords that were announced yesterday?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that Parliament as a whole will be increased in terms of authority and respect. It is right to insert into the House of Lords some elected peers, so that we recognise that in the modern world, it is right to have two Chambers that are predominantly elected. That is the policy of the Government. It is clear to me that there are massive divisions on both sides of the House about that policy. However, this is an opportunity for the House of Commons to try to find a path through those, which we must do to achieve what was in every manifesto: elections to the House of Lords.

[Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)]

Q15. An independent investigation is due to report on allegations that Reading borough council, when last under Labour control, diverted section 106 moneys to plug gaps in the general budget, and also to fund unrelated projects. Can the Prime Minister offer any advice on how residents can make use of the Localism Bill to ensure that section 106 money is spent correctly?

[The Prime Minister]

I would make two points to my hon. Friend. First, the Localism Bill gives local people a greater ability to influence what happens to section 106 money. Secondly, because of the new homes bonus, councils that go ahead with building homes will get more money, so they need not feel that they must go for one huge development in order to draw in the section 106 money. It could be that a different pattern of development—one more in tune with what local people want—would deliver some of the benefits that local people want to see.

[Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

May I return the Prime Minister to his earlier remarks on rape? We all support moves to make the justice system easier for women, but many people out there—victims and non-victims alike—find his proposals to reduce sentences by up to 50% abhorrent and frightening. The only responsible thing for him to do is to take that out of any consultation now.

[The Prime Minister]

The point is that what the hon. Lady says is not what we are proposing—[Hon. Members: “Yes it is!”] Let me make this point as well: because this Government take the crime of rape so seriously, we have boosted the funding for rape crisis centres. The real need—frankly, the whole House should unite on this—is to change the fact that 94% of rapists are walking the streets free because they have not been convicted. That is what we have got to change.

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

There are currently 2,500 trade union representatives across the public sector paid not to provide the service that they represent but to carry out campaigning activities that should be funded by the unions—and because the unions do not pay their salaries, they can spend their subs on other things, such as subsidising that lot over there. Does the Prime Minister not think it time that that was reformed?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. [Hon. Members: “No he doesn’t!”] It is interesting that whenever someone raises a point about union funding they get shouted down by the Labour party, because Labour Members do not want any examination of what trade unions do, or how much money they give to the Labour party. [Interruption.] I think that they protest a little too much.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

I am absolutely delighted to be supported by the trade union movement. May I ask the Prime Minister why he has not sacked his NHS adviser, Mark Britnell, who said that the NHS would be shown “no mercy”, and that the reforms would be a “big opportunity” for private profit and would transform the NHS into an

“insurance provider, not a state deliverer"?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to clear this up. When I read about Mr Britnell being my adviser, I was slightly puzzled, because I have never heard of this person in my life, and he is not my adviser. However, I did a little research, and it turned out that he was an adviser to the previous Government. [Hon. Members: “More!”] Oh, don’t worry, there is plenty more. He helped to develop Labour’s NHS plan in 2000, which increased the role of the private sector, he was appointed by Labour as chief executive of one of the 10 strategic health authorities set up by Labour, and when the Leader of the Opposition was in the Cabinet, Mark Britnell was director general for NHS commissioning. Although I do not know him, therefore, I suspect that Labour Members know him rather well.

[Hon. Members]

More!

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tyrie]

I was rather impressed by that last answer, but I will draw the Prime Minister on to something else. Yesterday the Government announced plans to reform the second Chamber. Can he tell the House whether he will use all means necessary, including the Parliament Acts, to protect the coalition’s legislative programme?

[The Prime Minister]

The short answer is yes. This is Government legislation, like any other piece of Government legislation, and will be scrutinised, carried through, debated and discussed, and then passed in the same way.

Counter-terrorism

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

The death of Osama bin Laden will have important consequences for the security of our people at home and abroad and for our foreign policy, including our partnership with Pakistan, our military action in Afghanistan and the wider fight against terrorism across the world. Last night, I chaired a meeting of Cobra to begin to address some of these issues, the National Security Council has met this morning and I wanted to come to the House this afternoon to take the first opportunity to address these consequences directly and to answer hon. Members’ questions.

At 3 am yesterday I received a call from President Obama. He informed me that US special forces had successfully mounted a targeted operation against a compound in Abbottabad, in Pakistan. Osama bin Laden had been killed along with four others—bin Laden’s son, two others linked to him and a female member of his family entourage. There was a ferocious firefight and a US helicopter had to be destroyed but there was no loss of American life. I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating President Obama and in praising the courage and skill of the American special forces who carried out this operation. It is a strike at the heart of international terrorism and a great achievement for America and for all who have joined in the long struggle to defeat al-Qaeda.

We should remember today in particular the brave British servicemen and women who have given their lives in the fight against terrorism across the world, and we should pay tribute especially to those British forces who played their part over the past decade in the hunt for bin Laden. He was the man who was responsible for 9/11, which was not only an horrific killing of Americans, but remains to this day the largest loss of British life in any terrorist attack. He was a man who inspired further atrocities, including those in Bali, Madrid, Istanbul and, of course, here in London on 7/7. He was, let us remember, a man who posed as a leader of Muslims, but was actually a mass murderer of Muslims all over the world. Indeed, he killed more Muslims than people of any other faith.

Nothing will bring back the loved ones who have been lost, and of course there is no punishment at our disposal that can remotely fit the many appalling crimes for which bin Laden was responsible, but I hope that at least for the victims’ families there is now some sense of justice being served, as a long dark chapter in their lives is finally closed. As the head of a family group for United Airlines flight 93, put it, we are

“raised, obviously, never to hope for someone’s death”,

but we are

“willing to make an exception in this case...He was evil personified, and our world is a better place without him.”

Britain was with America from the first day of the struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. Our resolve today should be as strong as it was then. There can be no impunity and no safe refuge for those who kill in the name of this poisonous ideology.

Our first focus should be our own security. Although bin Laden is gone, the threat of al-Qaeda remains. Clearly there is a risk that al-Qaeda and its affiliates in places such as Yemen and the Maghreb will want to demonstrate that they are able to operate effectively, and of course there is always the risk of a radicalised individual acting alone—a so-called lone-wolf attack. So we must be more vigilant than ever, and we must maintain that vigilance for some time to come.

The terrorist threat level in the UK is already at severe, which is as high as it can go without intelligence of a specific threat. We will keep that threat level under review, working closely with the intelligence agencies and the police. In terms of people travelling overseas, we have updated our advice and encourage British nationals to monitor the media carefully for local reactions, to remain vigilant, to exercise caution in public places and to avoid demonstrations. We have ordered our embassies across the world to review their security.

Let me turn next to Pakistan. The fact that bin Laden was living in a large house in a populated area suggests that he must have had an extensive support network in Pakistan. We do not currently know the extent of that network, so it is right that we ask searching questions about it, and we will. But let us start with what we do know. Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism than any other country in the world. As both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani said to me when I spoke to them yesterday, as many as 30,000 innocent civilians have been killed in Pakistan, and more Pakistani soldiers and security forces have died fighting extremism than international forces killed in Afghanistan.

Osama bin Laden was an enemy of Pakistan. He had declared war against the Pakistani people and he had ordered attacks against them. President Obama said in his statement that

“counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding.”

Continued co-operation will be just as important in the days ahead.

I believe it is in Britain’s national interest to recognise that with Pakistan we share the same struggle against terrorism. That is why we will continue to work with our Pakistani counterparts on intelligence gathering, tracing plots and taking action to stop them. It is why we will continue to honour our aid promises, including our support for education as a critical way of helping the next generation of Pakistanis to turn their back on extremism. Above all, it is why we were one of the founder members of the Friends of Democratic Pakistan, because I believe it is by working with the democrats in that country that we can make sure the whole country shares the same determination to fight terror and terrorism.

I also spoke yesterday to President Karzai in Afghanistan. We both agreed that the death of bin Laden provides a new opportunity for Afghanistan and Pakistan to work together in order to achieve stability on both sides of the border. Our strategy towards Afghanistan is straightforward and has not changed. We want an Afghanistan capable of looking after its own security without the help of foreign forces. We should take this opportunity to send a clear message to the Taliban: now is the time to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process.

The myth of bin Laden was that of a freedom fighter, living in austerity and risking his life for the cause as he moved around in the hills and mountainous caverns of the tribal areas. The reality of Bin Laden was very different: a man who encouraged others to make the ultimate sacrifice while he himself hid in the comfort of a large, expensive villa in Pakistan, experiencing none of the hardship he expected his supporters to endure.

Finally, let me briefly update the House on Libya. In recent weeks we have stepped up our air campaign to protect the civilian population. Every element of Gaddafi’s war machine has been degraded. Over the last few days alone, NATO aircraft have struck 35 targets, including tanks and armoured personnel carriers, as well as bunkers and ammunition storage facilities. We have also made strikes against his command and control centres, which direct his operations against civilians. Over the weekend, there were reports that in one of those strikes Colonel Gaddafi’s son, Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, was killed. Let me be clear that all the targets chosen were clearly within the boundaries set by UN resolutions 1970 and 1973. These resolutions permit all necessary measures to protect civilian life, including attacks on command and control bases.

This weekend also saw attacks on the British and Italian embassies. We utterly deplore this. The Gaddafi regime is in clear breach of the Vienna convention to protect diplomatic missions, and we will hold it fully to account. We have already expelled the Libyan ambassador from London. The British embassy was looted as well as destroyed and the world war two memorial was desecrated. The UN has felt obliged to pull its people out for fear of attack.

Gaddafi made much of his call for a ceasefire, but at the very moment he claimed he wanted to talk, he had in fact been laying mines in Misrata harbour to stop humanitarian aid getting in. That is the regime—that is the man—we are dealing with. We will continue to enforce the UN resolutions until such time as they are fully in place, and that means continuing to turn up the pressure—sanctions pressure, diplomatic pressure and military pressure.

Bin Laden and Gaddafi were said to have hated each other, but there was a common thread running between them: they both feared the idea that democracy and civil rights could take hold in the Arab world. While we should continue to degrade, dismantle and defeat the terrorist networks, a big part of the long-term answer is the success of democracy in the middle east and, of course, the conclusion of the Arab-Israeli peace process. For 20 years, bin Laden claimed that the future of the Muslim world would be his, but Libya has shown, as Egypt and Tunisia did before it, that people are rejecting everything bin Laden stood for. Instead of replacing dictatorship with his extremist totalitarianism, they are choosing democracy.

Ten years on from the terrible tragedy of 9/11, with the end of bin Laden and the democratic awakening across the Arab world, we must seize this unique opportunity to deliver a decisive break with the forces of al-Qaeda and its poisonous ideology, which has caused so much suffering to so many across so many years. I commend this statement to the House.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and join him in strongly endorsing the sentiments expressed yesterday by President Obama. The Opposition wholeheartedly support the action taken by the United States to bring Osama bin Laden to justice. We are grateful to President Obama for taking the decision and to the US special forces who carried it out.

At this time we remember the harrowing scenes of death and destruction of 9/11, and we remember, too, all the other atrocities carried out by al-Qaeda before 9/11 and since, including in Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Bali, Istanbul, Madrid, Amman and, of course, the 7/7 bombings here in London. The world is a better and safer place without bin Laden commanding or inciting acts of terror. We should never fall for the idea that he somehow stood for a particular community or faith. In each case the objective was the same: to kill and maim as many innocent men, women and children as possible, of all faiths and all backgrounds.

Our response now must be to seek to use this moment, not to claim premature victory in the fight against terrorists, but to heal the divisions he sought to create. We should do that by rooting out the perpetrators of terror, by reaching out to all those willing to accept the path of peace and, at the same time, by ensuring continued vigilance here at home.

All parts of the House will welcome the co-operative and calm response of the Pakistani Government over the past 48 hours, but there remains a great deal of uncertainty about who was aware of bin Laden’s presence and location in Pakistan, especially given his proximity to Pakistani military bases. Pakistan’s leaders continue to take a brave stance against terrorism, but when the Prime Minister talked to President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani, what discussions did he have about ensuring that the security apparatus in Pakistan fully supports their anti-terrorist efforts?

The developments of this weekend remind us why we took military action in Afghanistan, which under the Taliban gave shelter to bin Laden and to al-Qaeda, but those developments should also, as the Prime Minister said, reinforce the need for a lasting political settlement in Afghanistan as the only long-term guarantee of peace and security. Does the Prime Minister agree that we need greater urgency in the search for a political solution and to engage with those parts of the Taliban that are ready to renounce violence? Does he think that there are ways in which we can sharpen the choice facing the Taliban, including by deepening the political process in Afghanistan?

On Yemen and al-Qaeda’s remaining strongholds, we must do everything to combat terrorism and to increase pressure on their supporters, and we must also support movements that make it less likely that terrorism will take root, for is it not clear that the most effective long-term answer to al-Qaeda’s ideology of hatred is being provided by the peoples of north Africa and the middle east? During the Arab spring they have not been turning to an ideology of hate; they are demanding the right to control their own destinies with democratic reform and economic progress.

In that context, will the Prime Minister update the House on progress that has been made in consolidating the democratic gains in Egypt and Tunisia? What is being done not only to ensure that those Arab leaders who have promised reform stick to their commitments, but to force those still resorting to violence and repression, as in Syria, to stop doing so?

On Libya, it is clear that we cannot abandon the Libyan people to Colonel Gaddafi’s revenge, but will the Prime Minister also take this opportunity to reassure the House that, in all our words as well as actions, it will be clear that all the steps we take are in the terms of UN Security Council resolution 1973? Does he further agree that doing so is right in principle and essential to maintaining regional support for action to enforce the will of the Security Council?

On Israel-Palestine, does the Prime Minister agree that the reaction of Hamas, calling the killing of bin Laden an example of American oppression, is deeply regrettable? Does he agree that we should continue to make efforts to restart the middle east peace process? What discussions has he had with President Obama and the other leaders on that important area?

Finally, I support the Prime Minister’s call for UK citizens to show increased vigilance at this time. Al-Qaeda has suffered a serious blow, but it remains a threat. Can I also take this opportunity to offer my thanks and the thanks of the Opposition to the police and security services, which work tirelessly in public and behind the scenes to keep us safe, as well as to British forces throughout the world?

Above all, let me say this: 9/11 was one of the most horrific events of our generation, and for the victims and their families, including in this country, nothing can remove the pain that they feel, but the death of Osama bin Laden sends out a clear message that, in the face of terrorist acts, the world will not rest until justice is done.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and for the way he has made it. He is absolutely right to praise the police and security services, particularly those in the security services who never get public recognition for the work that they do to keep people in our country safe.

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to talk as strongly as he has about 9/11 and the memories people have of it. I am sure that everyone in the House remembers exactly where they were and what they were doing on that day, and how they felt, and he is right that we should use this moment to try to heal many of the divisions in our world.

On the specific questions, the right hon. Gentleman asks about Pakistan and the question, which I think will come up a lot, about who knew what and what we will do to find out who knew what. What matters most of all, as I said, is to back the democratic leaders of Pakistan, to work with them and those involved in security and military matters and to try to hold discussions with them together, which is what I did on my last visit to Pakistan.

On Afghanistan, the right hon. Gentleman asks how we can increase the urgency of a political settlement. That is absolutely the right thing to do, and again part of the answer lies in Pakistan and the discussions we can have with it to encourage all those involved to give up violence, to accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution and, critically, to renounce any link with al-Qaeda.

The right hon. Gentleman asks what more can be done to deepen the democratic process in Egypt and Tunisia. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was in Egypt yesterday. One of the key ways of doing this is through the European Union, and Britain, along with others, is pushing very hard for a total update of Europe’s relations with its neighbourhood to make them more attractive and something that has proper conditions attached to them.

On Syria, the right hon. Gentleman asked what more can be done to step up the pressure. I agree that what is happening in Syria is unacceptable. We are leading a process in Europe of setting about applying proper pressure—an arms embargo and taking the association agreement off the table—and we are looking at further steps, including travel bans and asset freezes, and other things we can do to show that what is happening in Syria is unacceptable.

On Libya, the right hon. Gentleman asks whether we will stick to UN resolution 1973. Yes, we will. What I would say, though, is that this does not mean just sticking with the existing set of things we are doing. All the time, we should be asking what more we can do to raise the diplomatic, military and sanctions pressure; and within all necessary measures to protect civilian life, I believe that there are many more things we can do and should do to keep the pressure up.

The right hon. Gentleman is right that Hamas’s reaction is very regrettable. I do believe, though, that the middle east peace process is, if you like, the third leg of the strategy to fundamentally defeat al-Qaeda. The first leg is the attack on the terrorist network—the blow so successfully dealt yesterday—and the second leg is democracy and progress in the middle east, in north Africa and in Muslim countries, but the third leg is a middle east peace process that works. I am seeing Prime Minister Netanyahu tomorrow evening, and we will do everything we can in our power to encourage both sides to recognise the historic times that we are living in and the historic chance there is to forge a deal that will last.

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)]

The Prime Minister has rightly paid tribute to the United States special forces who carried out yesterday’s remarkable operation. Will he make a similar tribute to the United States intelligence agencies, without whose patience and professionalism the actual location of bin Laden would never have been achieved?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend is entirely right. Clearly, this was a painstaking operation—if you like, a painstaking piece of detective work—that went on for many, many months. I can tell from speaking to President Obama that this was not some chance opportunity that came up but a piece of very careful work put in place over months and an operation clearly carried out with great professionalism and skill.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister rightly talks about three strands of a strategy to deal with the continuing problem of al-Qaeda. May I suggest that there is an additional strand, to pick up his point about the pernicious ideology of al-Qaeda, which in many ways remains the most enduring threat posed by al-Qaeda, notwithstanding the demise of its leader? Although there is no silver bullet, so far as here at home is concerned we need to continue programmes to deal with underachievement by some—not all—Asian heritage groups in schools and underemployment of them at work in order to reduce the opportunities for their minds to be taken over by this ideology.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, although I would say that there are two additional strands. One is dealing with problems of poverty, inequality and underachievement, which absolutely must be done, but separate from that is the whole bin Laden/al-Qaeda/extremist Islamist thread of painting Muslims and Muslim communities as somehow being in perpetual victimhood and saying that they can never successfully co-exist in western democratic societies. It is absolutely key that we target that ideology and challenge it, because in the end it is only by challenging the ideology that we will win this battle.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

While understanding the satisfaction, and even elation, of those who lost family members in the inferno of 9/11, does my right hon. Friend agree that the sober reality is that some things are unchanged by the death of Osama bin Laden? The threat remains, jihadism must be confronted, and adequate resources, effective international co-operation and good intelligence remain essential.

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend is right. There is still a severe terrorist threat—there is still an al-Qaeda threat—and we should not overestimate what has happened, but clearly the end of bin Laden, who was the leader and inspiration of this movement, is a massive setback for al-Qaeda and for its terrorist affiliates, and I think it is worth putting that on the record. Clearly, we now have to go further and deal with the remaining senior leadership of al-Qaeda who are in the tribal lands in Pakistan. We then have to address the affiliates in places like the Arabian peninsula and in the Maghreb. But as my right hon. and learned Friend and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) said, dealing with the pernicious ideology will be just as important as defeating the terrorists themselves.

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

I endorse everything that has been said this afternoon. In the light of the agreed short-term risk, does the Prime Minister agree that the resources of the security and policing services in Britain should be focused entirely on this issue? In the light of the words of the Deputy Prime Minister this morning that the proposed changes to the police service are not set in stone, will the Prime Minister consider a pause in the Government’s changes to the police service so that it can concentrate on what really matters to the British people?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman is obviously going a bit wider in his questioning. To me, it does not seem right to say that all the police’s attention should be on this issue; we have a serious situation in Northern Ireland as well. At all times, we are balancing the risks. On the police reforms, I say to Opposition Members that we have seen a successful model in London with the Mayor, which the previous Government put in place. That is a system in which the police feel more accountable to an elected individual, and I look forward to extending that across the country.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

Pakistan is a divided and complex country, and the death of Osama bin Laden will only exacerbate tensions there. Does the Prime Minister agree that our priority should be to assist Pakistan to remain a stable state, if only because first, it is a nuclear power, and, secondly, it will have a crucial role in any settlement in Afghanistan?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Of course there are frustrations, and questions will be asked about who knew what in Pakistan and about how this man could have lived in such a large house in such a comfortable-looking community so close to military installations. I am absolutely clear that the British interest is in working with the democratic politicians of Pakistan to deal with the shared issues of combating extremism; ensuring that we are dealing with a safe, rather than a dangerous, nuclear power; and, as my hon. Friend says, reaching a settlement in Afghanistan so that we can bring Britain’s brave troops home.

[Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)]

The brave and incredibly skilled individuals who carried out this operation deserve our profound gratitude, as do all those who put their lives on the line to protect us, including our own armed forces. In tackling the wider ideology of al-Qaeda, does the Prime Minister think that there are actions that we need to take abroad, as well as those that we need to take at home? The reconciliation track in Afghanistan is enormously important, and surely this operation gives us the opportunity to step up that activity. Did he talk to the President of the United States about that, and if he did not, will he do so?

[The Prime Minister]

I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is an opportunity, particularly in Afghanistan. Having discussed this matter with President Obama on many occasions, it is clear that there are two tracks that we should be pursuing. There is the military track, where we are building up the Afghan army and police, and having success against the insurgency in Afghanistan, where our troops are performing magnificently. At the same time, there is a political track, where we are saying to the Taliban that it is time for them to give up violence, break the link with al-Qaeda and enter a political process. Both tracks can continue simultaneously, but the death of bin Laden and the work with Pakistan present a greater opportunity for the second track to yield success.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although the remarks by Hamas were as repugnant as they were wrong, the moves by the new masters of Egypt towards opening the border with Hamas-controlled Gaza are nevertheless the clearest possible illustration of just how important is the third corner of the triangle that he outlined? There will be no support from moderate Arab opinion without a long-term solution that offers justice for the Palestinians.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is clearly right. We have to take the positive, optimistic view that although there will be all sorts of difficulties in the days ahead, Palestinian unity between Fatah and Hamas should be a step forward, and we must make sure that it is. What follows is trying to persuade the Israelis and others that although there are all sorts of uncertainties in the world today, this is an opportunity to take steps towards peace, as they will be dealing with more democratic neighbours.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister will know that the vast majority of Muslims in this country entirely reject the violent ideology of al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Will he therefore confirm that in the review of the Prevent programme, he will ensure that he puts in place a series of practical programmes to build the resilience of our young people to messages of hatred and extremism? Will he also confirm that he takes really seriously, as I know he does, the challenge to that ideology, on which I believe we have to do far more work to ensure that we really make an impact?

[The Prime Minister]

The words the right hon. Lady has uttered have been ringing through our review of Prevent. The problem has been not so much that a minority of British Muslims actually back al-Qaeda as that there has been a pernicious ideology among a minority of some communities that has given some comfort to the stories that al-Qaeda provides about victimhood and the rest of it. We have to address that issue in order to drain the swamp in which al-Qaeda has been swimming, if I can say so without mixing my metaphors.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Although it is clear that Osama bin Laden was deeply malign and it is good that that influence has ended, does the Prime Minister agree that the rule of law is very important and it is a great shame that we were not able to bring him before a court?

[The Prime Minister]

I listened very carefully to John Brennan’s briefing, and he made it clear that the forces were prepared to take bin Laden alive and capture him, but only if they were not actually in a firefight and at risk themselves. I think the Americans were completely justified in what they did and I think the world is much better off without bin Laden.

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

In the context of counter-terrorism, if our allies can take out bin Laden in Pakistan and we can hit targets in Libya, why cannot we arrest a balaclava-clad terrorist who stands in a graveyard in Londonderry, in the United Kingdom, and threatens to kill police officers and destroy the political process in Northern Ireland?

[The Prime Minister]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I take a very strong view that what we saw in Londonderry is not acceptable and is an offence that the police should pursue. The Police Service of Northern Ireland is now well funded, well backed and an excellent police service, and I would encourage it in its work.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

Not withstanding the huge military sacrifices of the Pakistani army and the Pakistani people, in the Prime Minister’s conversations with President Zardari, did the President give him an assurance that should an evidence trail emerge from any subsequent investigation into the bin Laden compound that links some elements of the Pakistani state with the possible protection of bin Laden, the individuals involved will be brought before the courts in Pakistan?

[The Prime Minister]

In the conversation that I had with President Zardari, and then separately with Prime Minister Gillani, they first gave me their assurance that they did not know that bin Laden was living in Abbottabad and that they did not have such an understanding. I clearly made the point that the Pakistanis were going to be asked a lot of very searching questions by friends and foes alike over the coming days and needed to be prepared to answer them, but I come back to this basic point: what is in our national interest? Is it in our interest to have an enormous bust-up and argument with Pakistan over this, or is it in our interest to say, “Right, we’re going to work with the forces of democracy in Pakistan that want to fight terror and terrorism”? That must be in our interest, and it is what we should adhere to.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Earlier, the Foreign Secretary tried to reassure the House that the future of the World Service was secure, but it is undeniably a diminished World Service whose future is secure. Given what has been said about counter-terrorism ideas in emerging democracies, will the Prime Minister strategically review the role and budget of the World Service?

[The Prime Minister]

Lots of Government Departments had very difficult settlements because, I am afraid, of the financial situation that we inherited. I think the deal with the World Service involving the BBC provided secure funding for its future. Of course it is having to make some economies, but I think it is perfectly possible to make economies and provide a good service at the same time.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Although I welcome the Prime Minister’s emphasis on the battle of ideas, does he share my concern that all too many people in all too many Muslim communities do not even accept that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11? What does that say about the failure of the west to get the counter-narrative and the counter-propaganda out worldwide and effectively?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and that is very much what I was discussing with the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). Many in that minority of the Muslim community take the view that bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11. That does not mean that they actively back bin Laden; it just means that they have bought in to a narrative of Israeli plots and the rest of it. We must challenge that narrative. We cannot have young people growing up in our country believing that nonsense, and it is incumbent on all of us in the work we do in our constituencies—in mosques, community centres and so on—to challenge that thinking whenever it comes up. We should not believe that we are challenging cultural sensitivities in doing so—we are not. We are making a very clear point about what it means to be part of a modern democracy.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

A lot of the coverage of Osama bin Laden’s death has referred to him as “evil”, and although we all hate the man, may I congratulate the Prime Minister on, I think, deliberately avoiding that sort of religious language? Osama bin Laden was not engaged in a holy war or crusade, and do we not need to hear a lot more Muslim clerics make that absolutely clear?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

I think we do. I am not sure that I avoided the word “evil”—I will always take religious advice from the hon. Gentleman, who has more experience in that—but his point is a good one. We must remember that al-Qaeda’s narrative is not Muslims against the rest of the world, but Muslims against Muslims, before moving on to the clash of civilisations with the rest of the world. It is hopeful that we are seeing Arab and Muslim states saying that what they want is not that sort of sharia law society, but to move towards the building blocks of democracy, which will make for a better and more peaceful world.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I visited the UK Bali memorial today—a tribute to the innocent victims of just one of the many terrorist bombings that defined the past decade. News of bin Laden’s death did not fill me with any sense of victory, for the world is no safer, but I did feel that we are starting a new chapter and that the world is a better place. Bin Laden’s removal is long overdue. Is it not telling that the Arab spring is calling not for a seventh-century caliphate, but for a change towards a non-violent, democratic and secular society?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I know that he suffered a loss in that Bali bomb. We can never bring back someone who has been lost, but he is right that the best tribute we can pay to the people who were lost in the murderous attacks in New York, London, Istanbul or Bali is not only to roll up the terrorist network that has created so much hatred, poison and death, but to see the Arab and Muslim world move towards democracy and freedom. That would be the most fitting tribute of all.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

Bin Laden is dead, but the ideology he represented is not, even though al-Qaeda has been a follower rather than a leader of the Arab spring. Does the Prime Minister accept that parts of that ideology—the perverted use of victimhood and the warped sense of faith—are often used as justification to kill others of the same faith? Is he aware that that ideology is sometimes shared by those who are not active supporters of terrorism? Does he therefore accept that even though bin Laden is gone, the struggle against the ideology he represented must continue at a political, an ideological and a security level?

[The Prime Minister]

I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman and I hope there can be cross-party consensus on that. It would really help if we recognise in the review of Prevent and in what we do to deal with that ideology that it is not enough to say that we will prevent violent extremism, because we need to prevent extremism as well. Sometimes in the past, we have made a mistake in thinking, “Let’s talk to the extremists in order to stop the really violent ones,” but that is like trying to get the British National party to help to deal with a violent fascist. That would not be sensible in that context, and it is not sensible in dealing with extremist Islamism either.

[Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)]

I want Pakistan to be a prosperous, peaceful and successful country, free of corruption. It is in our interests to support that, but lots of people in this country know that something stinks about where bin Laden was found and where he has apparently been living for the past five years. If this country is to continue to support and encourage Pakistan financially and morally, the Pakistani Government need to come clean about what has happened.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Just because we are long-term friends and partners with Pakistan, as we should be, it does not mean that we cannot deliver a fairly tough message every now and again. When I went to Pakistan recently, one message I delivered was that it was unacceptable that so many people in Pakistan did not pay their taxes. It is not easy for us in the west to take money off our taxpayers to give to Pakistani education—vital though that is—if Pakistan is not collecting taxes from its own people. Dealing with corruption, making the country more transparent and ensuring that wealthy people in Pakistan pay their taxes should all be part of our bilateral agenda.

[Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab)]

When the Prime Minister visited Pakistan recently, he announced various lines of co-operation, including technical co-operation on roadside improvised explosive devices. In the light of very recent events, will the Prime Minister review that co-operative agreement, lest technical knowledge gained could be passed rather quickly into the hands of terrorists in Afghanistan and elsewhere, with consequent threats to British and other lives?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course we consider all those things very carefully, but Pakistan has lost thousands of soldiers fighting extremists in south Waziristan and the Swat valley, where they are trying to root out a similar sort of Taliban to the one we are fighting in Afghanistan. We have to understand when we are talking to President Zardari that he lost his wife to extremist terrorists. Of course we must be careful in all that we do, but working with the Pakistanis so that they can combat extremism in their own country is clearly in our national interest.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

May I commend my right hon. Friend’s tone towards Pakistan and his saying that we should deal with that country constructively and co-operatively? Should we not bear in mind what President Zardari himself has pointed out—that only 11% of the population of Pakistan has ever voted for radical Islamic parties, and that 85% is explicitly opposed to al-Qaeda? On that basis, there should be common interest and common cause between our two countries.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Indeed, we need to co-operate not just on combating terrorism, but on the other matter we have been discussing today—combating the narrative of extremism. The same problem as the one we have been dealing with in our country exists in parts of Pakistan, albeit in a larger and different way.

[Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)]

Although everybody welcomes the death of this evil man, does the Prime Minister not agree that the west should take two steps back when it wants to interfere in other people’s affairs?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

The problem with that philosophical view of British foreign policy is that we live in too much of an interconnected world. The idea that we can just put the barrier up and say, “What happens in Pakistan or Afghanistan does not affect us” is wrong. The fact is that 1.4 million people of Pakistani origin live in Britain and travel between here and Pakistan. The fact is that we were threatened by terrorism sourced from Afghanistan and the tribal lands of Pakistan. I am afraid that that sort of “stop the world, I want to get off” foreign policy option no longer exists in this interconnected world.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Wellingborough is a fully integrated, interfaith community—in fact, this week we have Sikh, Hindu, Muslim and Christian candidates standing for the Conservative party at the local elections. [Interruption.] Does the Prime Minister agree that in my community of Wellingborough, yesterday’s events will be wholly welcomed?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I think someone shouted, “What’s that got to do with it?” but it is important that all parties try to ensure that they are fully representative of all parts of the community. As we have learned in the Conservative party, it is not enough just to open the doors and invite people in; we have to go out and ask people in, so that we can say to people in every community that they are represented in whatever party they would like to support for whatever reason they would like to support it.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

Can the Prime Minister tell us anything about the reported counter-terrorism raids that have taken place in four homes in east London?

[The Prime Minister]

I can tell the hon. Lady that an arrest was made in connection with a group of people at Sellafield today. That is a matter for the police, but if there is further information to update her with, perhaps my office can contact her.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Bin Laden may have gone, but other members and supporters of al-Qaeda continue to live openly in the United Kingdom, protected by the European Human Rights Act 1998. Does the Prime Minister agree that we can put a lot more faith in US special forces to protect us than the bureaucrats of Brussels?

[The Prime Minister]

I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. We are trying to deal with the problem in a number of ways. First, we are trying to sign a treaty with Pakistan on deportation with assurances, so that we can deport people of Pakistani citizenship and origin who may threaten this country back to Pakistan to be dealt with there. I discussed that with Prime Minister Gilani and President Zardari when I was there recently. However, we are also trying to reform the European Court of Human Rights from within, and my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that our right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary had a very productive set of meetings with other Council members and there was widespread support for reforming the Court, so that it pays more attention to decisions taken by national courts.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and for early sight of it. The conclusion was that what Libya demonstrated, as Egypt and Tunisia did before it, is that people are completely rejecting everything that bin Laden stood for. My hon. Friends and I fervently hope that that is true. Will the Prime Minister update the House on the concrete steps being taken to foster democracy and respect for human rights in north Africa and throughout the middle east?

[The Prime Minister]

I think there are bilateral actions that Britain, as an old and successful democracy, should take and links that we should make, such as updating the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, as we have discussed in this House before. However, the biggest step would be for the European Union radically to overhaul its programme of help and assistance to north African and middle eastern neighbours and countries. Frankly, its programme up to now has been quite expensive—there is no shortage of money being spent—but it has not been successful in putting in place those building blocks of democracy. That is what we should be working on.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is imperative to provide every possible military, diplomatic and development assistance to Pakistan, not only to build democracy in the longer term, but to help to improve security in the shorter term, which is inextricably linked with a successful exit strategy from Afghanistan?

[The Prime Minister]

I agree that we need to build those links. Clearly there has to be a two-way relationship: we must not be too transactional about it, but we need to be clear with the Pakistanis about what we hope to gain from the partnership that we enter into. Clearly, work on counter-terrorism is vital to Britain’s national interest, but we are prepared to do a huge amount with Pakistan to help with matters such as the education of children. There are 17 million children in Pakistan not at school today. If we want to keep them away from extremism and, indeed, if we want to deal with problems of migration as well, it makes sense for us to continue our aid programme.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Every terrorist attack is a disaster; every resulting war is a tragedy. Does the Prime Minister not agree that we should now think quite seriously about the whole strategy adopted over the past 30 years? Bin Laden was financed by the west in the war in Afghanistan in 1979; he had relations with US oil interests after that, and later he became the terrorist threat that he remained for the rest of his life. Do we not need to think seriously about where the west is putting money, who it supports and what eventually comes round to bite us in the back because we have not analysed what is happening in those countries and those societies?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course the hon. Gentleman is right that we have to learn the lessons of successes and failures of the past and try to apply them for the future, but it seems to me that there are some constants in all this, one of which is that the promotion of democracy and freedom, along with what I call the building blocks of democracy, is almost always and everywhere a good thing to do. In as much as we learn the lessons of interventions of the past, I hope that we hold on to that.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

It is entirely right that the Taliban should heed the calls from the Prime Minister to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process. What practical mechanisms exist whereby, in doing so, the Taliban can pursue a peaceful settlement in Afghanistan?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. There are practical steps in place through the reconciliation and reintegration procedure that is available in Afghanistan through the President’s peace council. That enables Taliban fighters effectively to put down their weapons and join the political process, as long as they accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution. However, as well as that low-level reintegration, we need higher-level reconciliation, where we say to the Taliban, “If you accept the tenets of the constitution, give up violence and cut your links with al-Qaeda, there is a political path open to you,” because ultimately, insurgencies tend to end through a combination of force of arms and a simultaneous political process.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Do not the six years of treachery by powerful people in Pakistan prove that the links of blood, religion, language and ethnicity between Pakistan and Afghanistan are far, far more powerful than the friendship of convenience between us and those countries, which depends on a continuing sacrifice of blood and treasure by us? Have not our excessive optimism and trust delayed the day when we can do a deal and bring our brave boys home?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not accept that analysis, because it can lead us to believe that the best option for Britain, and indeed America, is to cut ourselves off entirely from friendships, partnerships and co-operation with those countries and leave them to their own devices. That has been a mistake in the past. The lesson to learn is that long-term partnerships to help those countries are actually in our interests.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

The Prime Minister spoke about the myth of Osama bin Laden. One of the most powerful recruiting sergeants for al-Qaeda was the idea that he had moved away from a decadent western lifestyle to that of a penitent holy warrior. Is the Prime Minister heartened, as I am, by the truth that he was a hypocrite and that that hypocrisy runs through the core of the ideology of al-Qaeda?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The idea that bin Laden was a hermit bravely living in a cave directing the insurgency has been given the lie completely, as we see now that he was living in a luxury million-dollar villa in a fairly suburban part of Pakistan. I hope that people who have somehow revered this man will now see the true picture of someone who was hypocritically living pretty high on the hog while expecting others to suffer hardship.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

I warmly commend the remarks that the Prime Minister has made about Pakistan consistently throughout his statement. He is right that questions will have to be asked about who knew what, but the central tenet of what he says is that our relationship with Pakistan is not a friendship of convenience, as some of my hon. Friends believe. In fact, Britain and Pakistan have an unbreakable common interest in combating terrorism, and in many other areas. What more can be done to ensure that that is understood here in Britain and, importantly, in Pakistan?

[The Prime Minister]

It is about the hard work of building a strong partnership that is for the long term and not concentrating too much on the short-term transactions that two countries might want to undertake. The fact is that we have a shared interest in fighting terrorism, expanding trade, combating poverty, improving education and ensuring that the people-to-people links between our countries are strong. The more we discuss those matters with democratically elected politicians in Pakistan, the more the common interests will grow. I do not think that that is an impossible dream, as the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) suggested; it is practical politics and completely in our national interest.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

May I turn the Prime Minister’s attention to Libya? He mentioned that he was seeking to tighten up the sanctions. What does he think about those countries that are not exactly signed up to the United Nations resolutions and that have been allowing Gaddafi to get hold of assets and funding by letting them slip through their countries and into Tripoli?

[The Prime Minister]

We think that that is unacceptable, and that, as well as implementing resolutions 1970 and 1973, there are opportunities to tighten sanctions—on oil and oil products, for example—to ensure that the regime comes to its senses and realises that it cannot go on terrorising its own people. In the coming days, we will look at ways of stepping up the action that we are taking, as well as encourage others to enforce measures already in place.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister has referred several times to the need to combat the global jihadist Islamist ideology. In that context, will he have urgent discussions with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and ask it not only to reverse the reductions in the BBC’s Arabic language services, but to implement an idea that has been talked about for quite a while—namely, to introduce a BBC Urdu channel to broadcast in Pakistan?

[The Prime Minister]

I heard the Foreign Secretary dealing with that matter extensively during questions. Many of the budget reductions being made are regrettable, but they are all part of ensuring that government is affordable and that we deal with the deficit that we inherited. I am quite clear that the settlement for the BBC is fair and that the BBC has to ensure that that money goes further in providing many of the excellent services that it does.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

In the context of Libya, may I ask my right hon. Friend what support the NATO-led coalition is receiving from other members of the Arab League?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

We are getting good support from members of the Arab League: both the Qataris and the United Arab Emirates are providing planes, and logistic support is coming from some other members of the Arab League. The key is that the contact group, which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary helped to set up, has already had a number of meetings and further ones are forthcoming. In those meetings, the support of the Arab League and Arab countries for what is happening in Libya is still extremely strong—

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Declining.

[The Prime Minister]

No, it is not declining. It is still strong because Arab League countries know what they are dealing with in Gaddafi. When they watch what he is doing now—mining the port in Misrata, shelling and killing his own citizens—they know that is completely unacceptable and they are right to back the coalition.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister say in which part of the world any possible retaliatory attack is most threatening? Do the Government have any plans to deploy UK military resources to combat that threat?

[The Prime Minister]

The whole point of the Cobra meeting last night was to review the evidence and concerns about potential retaliatory attacks. Clearly, we have to be on our guard across the world against attacks, whether they be here in the UK or on British assets or embassies in any other part of the world. We keep the threat picture permanently updated and keep permanently under review the advice we give to our embassies and the stance we take here. Certainty is never possible in these matters, but we try to be as vigilant as we can be.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend said that our objectives in Afghanistan remain unchanged. Does he believe that the death of bin Laden might allow us to achieve those objectives more quickly and hasten the day when our servicemen and women can come home?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not think it should automatically change our timetable; I think we should stick to that timetable. As I said, however, as well as the military track we are pursuing, there is also the political track of encouraging the Taliban into a political process. I would think that that will be helped by the fact that bin Laden is no more, as the futility of maintaining the link with al-Qaeda is seen. If the Taliban sever that link, there is every prospect of a political settlement, which prospect can clearly lead to British forces coming home. I do not think we should imagine that the timetable will be different, but we should work hard to take every opportunity brought about by the end of bin Laden.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister famously once accused the Pakistani Government of facing both ways. Is it not now clear that, whichever way they were facing, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence was clearly focused on Abbottabad and the security compound there, and that the co-operation of which he spoke must now have as part of its condition the root and branch reform of the ISI? If not, the fight against terror will be doomed from the beginning.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. As I said in my statement, it is clear that bin Laden had a “support network” in Pakistan. Those are the words that John Brennan used, and they are absolutely right. We do not know the full extent of that support network or exactly where it reached; what we do know is that we should do everything we can to support the democrats in Pakistan who want the entire country to face the same way and work hard to combat terrorism in every way possible. That is what we should do.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I welcome the content and particularly the promptness of the Prime Minister’s statement. The Foreign Secretary confirmed earlier that military action against individuals such as Colonel Gaddafi should take place only within the confines of proper legal authority. Does the Prime Minister expect it to be confirmed that that was also the case for the undoubtedly courageous action against Osama bin Laden?

[The Prime Minister]

The legal position and the legal advice are a matter for the United States. It was a US operation with US troops, so it is entirely a matter for that country. I think we should focus today on the fact that the world is undoubtedly better off without that man still being at large.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I think the Prime Minister for his statement. Will he inform us whether intelligence sources confirm that Colonel Gaddafi is planning to use chemical weapons against the people of Libya? What further steps can be taken against the tyrant Gaddafi?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman has raised an interesting point. I believe that there have been press reports of gas masks being distributed by some in the Libyan regime, but we have no information about whether those reports are reliable or are linked with anything else. Obviously, however, we keep a close eye on everything that is happening in Libya, and on any threat that the regime could use such weapons in any way.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Of course we reject the al-Qaeda characterisation of western policy as an attempt to impose our views on the Muslim world, but in order to win hearts and minds—particularly in the Arab world—will my right hon. Friend make it clear that it is no part of our long-term policy to impose or get rid of a particular regime in Libya, and that our aim is to secure a ceasefire, a settlement and, ultimately, peace, even at the cost of a divided country? I suspect that what most Libyans want is peace.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend has made a good point, which is linked to the point made at Question Time by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). We are not there to pick a Government for Libya—to say, “You can have this sort of Government but not that sort of Government.” We are there, basically, to put in place United Nations resolutions 1970 and 1973, and to allow the Libyan people to choose their own Government in their own way. It may well be, in the end, a Government with whom we do not have 100% agreement, but one of the lessons that we have learnt in recent years is that that is how to make progress, rather than our trying—as I have put it in the past—to impose such things from above.

[Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister spoke of the myths about bin Laden. Is he not concerned about the possibility that the swift burial of bin Laden will lead to conspiracy theories and further myths about whether he is still alive?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that the United States made a sensible decision on the basis that this was in line with all the correct Muslim practices for burial—a luxury, incidentally, that bin Laden never allowed any of his victims. This was done in an appropriate way, at sea, and I think that the Americans are to be commended for doing it in that way.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

In the context of the rumours of conspiracy theorists, does the Prime Minister agree that it would be inappropriate and potentially unhelpful if the United States authorities released detailed and possibly gory footage of the operation in Pakistan?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that it is, in the end, for the United States to decide exactly what to release about the operation. All that I would say, on the basis of my limited experience, is that there are some conspiracy theorists who will never be satisfied. Some people still believe that Elvis will be found riding Shergar. You will never satisfy some people. I think that what the Americans have done so far is pretty sufficient in explaining to all reasonable people that bin Laden is no more.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

On that bright September morning in New York, no one really seemed to give a fuss about anyone else’s religion, but over 20 years Osama bin Laden was responsible not only for the murder of innocents but for a raising of disadvantage for Muslims in many parts of the world. Does the Prime Minister agree that terrorists like Mr bin Laden abandon their faith the moment they determine to slaughter innocent people, and will he recommit himself to an open, inclusive society in this country, which includes our Muslim citizens?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend has put it extremely well. The fact is that there is no place in Islam for this sort of murderous ideology. It is against what Islam is meant to be all about. I hope that the argument that we can get across to people now is that that was an entirely blind alley for so many young people to go down, and that there is an alternative to the repression and frustration that they felt about regimes in north Africa and elsewhere: the democratic awakening that is taking place, which—as I said earlier—is one of the ways in which we will defeat al-Qaeda in the long run.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that, having suffered such a grievous loss—that of his wife—the President of Pakistan is totally on side in the battle against international terrorism, and that somehow or other we must help him to rid his governmental structure of people who are sympathetic to al-Qaeda, or indeed the Taliban? I do not know how we can do that, but perhaps the Prime Minister does.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend has put his question in the right way. A long-term commitment on the part of this country and, crucially, the United States to Pakistan is what is needed to help to convince Pakistan that together we will defeat this menace and give the country some prospect of peaceful progress. I have no doubt that that is President Zardari’s view. As my hon. Friend has said, the President has suffered from terrorism himself, and has shown considerable courage in sending Pakistani troops into the Swat valley and south Waziristan to defeat terrorism. So yes, Pakistan does need our help and long-term commitment so that we can deal with this issue together.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

What concrete steps are the UK Government and their allies taking to counter any propaganda campaign that may be launched seeking to portray bin Laden as a martyr?

[The Prime Minister]

That is a good point, and how the Americans have behaved over the burial—the fact that it was done in a proper Muslim way, and so forth—will help in that regard. Frankly, I do not think there is any magic button we can push or any magic campaign we can run. It is for all of us to make sure that people understand the evil this man did, the pernicious ideology he was pushing, and the fact that it led to a complete dead end for a generation of young Muslim men. If we make that argument, we can win that argument.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Bin Laden’s death will be a severe setback for al-Qaeda, but as the Prime Minister knows, there are relatively few al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, and there are real differences between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, which could be worth exploring to provide a way forward. Will the Prime Minister therefore do more to urge the Americans to have open, meaningful, non-conditional talks with the Taliban? As we showed in Northern Ireland, it is possible to fight and talk at the same time.

[The Prime Minister]

The point I would make to my hon. Friend is that while there are clearly differences between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, there are at the moment still links between them. The Taliban are not currently willing to break the link with al-Qaeda, but that is a key step that needs to be taken in making sure that they can enter some sort of political dialogue and settlement in Afghanistan. It is not acceptable to ask Afghan democrats, and President Karzai and others, to have conversations with people who, even at the end of those conversations, are still going to be committed to violence and overthrowing all of the Afghan constitution, and who are going to be linked to a group of terrorists—al-Qaeda—which has done so much damage not just to Pakistan, but to Afghanistan itself.

[Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister believe the discovery of bin Laden in Pakistan serves to vindicate the speech he gave in Bangalore last July?

[The Prime Minister]

I am not going to row away from points I have made in the past, but the point I would repeat today is that it is in our interests to work with democrats in Pakistan so that all of that country, and everyone within it, is facing in the same direction in combating extremism, as their democratically elected politicians so clearly want to do.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Muslims, both here in the UK and around the world, will welcome the fact that this evil criminal has been brought to justice? We must remind ourselves of that, to avoid stigmatising one particular group in society.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it should ring out from this Chamber today that one of the groups of people who should be most relieved at the passing of bin Laden is Muslims all over the world, because he killed more Muslims than people belonging to any other faith. The point has been made right across the House today that only a minority of a minority of a minority, as it were, backed al-Qaeda, and another small group of people bought into some of the pernicious ideology it was peddling. We have to deal with both those problems, and it is remarkable how much common ground there has been on that on both sides of the House today.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

From one Essex man to another! Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will take strong action against any conveyor-belt Islamist groups or individuals that use what has happened to bin Laden to promote jihad or other forms of violence?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and as we have discussed today, we must combat not just violent extremism, but extremism itself. I think there has in the past been a sense of a conveyer belt, with some extremist groups and organisations taking people into a career of jihadism, and we will never deal with that unless we deal with the conveyor belt itself.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I know that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Colour Sergeant Alan Cameron from 1st Battalion Scots Guards, who died on Thursday 31 March as a result of injuries he suffered while serving in Afghanistan last April, and Captain Lisa Head from 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps, who died on Tuesday 19 April. Colour Sergeant Cameron was an inspirational figure to his regiment, providing support to injured colleagues and their families even while he was being treated in hospital for his own injuries. Captain Head demonstrated great bravery in her work making safe improvised explosive devices to protect both her colleagues and the local population. They will not be forgotten, and our wishes and best condolences should be with their families and friends.

I am sure that the whole House will also want to join me in sending our condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of Police Constable Ronan Kerr. Those who murdered him must not be allowed to deter the wishes of the overwhelming majority of people who want a peaceful and shared future for Northern Ireland.

On a happier note, people across the country—and, indeed, the world—are getting excited about the events on Friday, and I am sure that the whole House would wish to join me in sending our best wishes to Prince William and Catherine Middleton ahead of their wedding this Friday, and to wish them a long and happy life together.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall hold further such meetings today.

[Jim Shannon]

I would like to associate myself with the Prime Minister’s comments and condolences to those people who have lost their lives in Afghanistan. I also welcome the Irish Rangers and the Irish Guards back home after their tour of duty in Afghanistan.

On Easter Monday, dissident republicans held a commemorative parade in Londonderry and threw down the gauntlet to all the law-abiding citizens in Northern Ireland. The murderous thugs that are dissident republicans threatened to kill Police Service of Northern Ireland officers, both Roman Catholic and Protestant; they threatened the churches, both Protestant and Roman Catholic; they threatened politicians, both Unionists and nationalist; and they threatened Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and MPs in this House. Can the Prime Minister assure the House that this attack on the democratic process will be met forcefully, and that those republican terrorists must be brought to justice?

[The Prime Minister]

I can give that assurance. I am sure that everyone in the House and the country would agree that scenes of people dressed in balaclavas in Londonderry are completely unacceptable. We have funded the PSNI appropriately. It is now properly devolved and working well, and I urge it to do everything it can to hunt down these people. Above all, the words that should ring in our ears are those of the mother of PC Ronan Kerr, who said she hoped that this would not prevent more Roman Catholics from joining the PSNI and doing a great job policing Northern Ireland.

[Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister recognise that lending to business by banks was down £3.4 billion last month in March, and that the construction industry was down in productive terms by 4.7%? Does he see a connection, and if so, what will he do about it?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right about the figures today and that what is happening in the construction industry is disappointing. We need to get Britain building again, which is why we are introducing the new homes bonus. However, what is encouraging in the figures is that the British economy is growing once again, manufacturing is up, exports are up, and we are seeing a rebalancing of the economy so that we are not over-reliant on private consumption. That is good news. We also have an agreement with the banks that they must increase their lending to businesses large and small. That needs to happen.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Colour Sergeant Alan Cameron and Captain Lisa Head. Both demonstrated enormous courage and bravery, and our thoughts are with their families and friends. I also pay tribute to Police Constable Ronan Kerr, who was senselessly murdered simply for doing his job. We should all be encouraged by the expressions of outrage that we have seen across all communities in Northern Ireland in response to this act.

I also join the Prime Minister in sending best wishes to Prince William and Catherine Middleton on their happy day on Friday. I am sure that I speak for the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and myself when I say that we will all do our best to be suitably attired for the occasion.

On the economy, does the Prime Minister think that it is a mark of success or failure that the economy has flatlined over the last six months?

[The Prime Minister]

It is clearly a success that the economy is growing. The figures out this morning show the economy growing in the first quarter of the year. They show manufacturing and exports up, and we have 400,000 more people in work in the private sector than we had a year ago. However, the right hon. Gentleman predicted a double dip. He said that we were going to get two quarters of negative growth, so when he gets to his feet, perhaps it is time to apologise for talking the economy down.

[Edward Miliband]

What world is the right hon. Gentleman living in? What extraordinary complacency. His hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) asked what was happening to small business lending. What terrible complacency from this Prime Minister. Six months ago, what did he tell us? He told us that we were out of the danger zone. Since then there has been no growth at all in the British economy. Yesterday the Chancellor was reported to have told the Cabinet that the economy was on track, but it is not even forecast to meet the Office for Budget Responsibility’s figures published last month by the Chancellor. Is it not the case that it is his cuts that are too far and too fast, and that are squeezing living standards, undermining consumer confidence and holding back growth in our economy?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman was desperate for the economy to shrink today. He had written his questions and come to the House; the only problem was that the economy was growing, not shrinking. He and the shadow Chancellor said that there would be a double-dip recession. They had talked the economy down. Now that the economy is growing, why can they not find it in themselves to welcome the growth in the economy? We should be talking up the fact that manufacturing is increasing and we are exporting more, with 390,000 more people in private sector jobs than a year ago. These are welcome developments.

The right hon. Gentleman talks about the danger zone. I will tell him what the danger zone is: it is countries such as Portugal, Greece and Ireland, which did not deal with their debts, and as a result have interest rates rocketing and real problems. We have debts, tragically, because of what we inherited and a deficit the same size as Greece’s, but we have interest rates like Germany’s. It is time for the right hon. Gentleman to admit that he was wrong about the deficit and wrong about the economy.

[Edward Miliband]

It is not me who is talking down the economy; it is the Prime Minister’s austerity rhetoric that has led to the lowest levels of consumer confidence in history in this country. He has been Prime Minister for a year. He cannot blame the Greeks, he cannot blame the Bank of England, he cannot blame the last Government—he cannot even blame the snow. Why does he not admit that we have had six months of no growth because of his decisions, his Chancellor’s decisions and his Government’s decisions?

[The Prime Minister]

The economy has grown by 1.8% over the last year, but let me tell the right hon. Gentleman this. I did a little research, and all the time that he was in the Cabinet, there was not a single quarter when the economy grew more than 0.5%—not one. That is his great record. Let me tell him something about the need to make public spending cuts. We are now in a new financial year—the year in which the Darling plan was going to start the process of cutting the deficit by half. For every £8 that we are proposing to cut this year, Labour would be cutting £7. Have we heard a single sensible proposal for making any cuts, or have we just heard blatant opportunism and talking the economy down? I think we know.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister join me in condemning the appalling, disgraceful, untruthful and misleading leaflet that is being distributed by the Yes to Fairer Votes campaign, which is being chaired by the Electoral Reform Society? The leaflet seeks to diminish Parliament and therefore damage democracy, which, given the content of the leaflet, can be the only objective of the Electoral Reform Society.

[The Prime Minister]

What matters, in the week that we have left before we vote in this vital referendum, is that we get back to the real arguments about competing electoral systems. I am very clear that first past the post is simple, fair and effective and that it has worked for our country. I have to say that it is not often that I like to look out on a sea of red badges, but today it looks quite good.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Q2. Is the Health Secretary’s job still guaranteed? He is over there, by the way.

[The Prime Minister]

The Health Secretary does an excellent job. Let me draw a little contrast—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This is very discourteous and it is very unfair. It is unfair on the Prime Minister and it is unfair on me. I want to hear the answer.

[The Prime Minister]

Let me draw a little contrast between what the Health Secretary is delivering here—real-terms increases in health spending—and what is happening in Wales. The Labour-led Administration in Wales are cutting the NHS in real terms. Everyone in Wales needs to know that if they get another Labour-dominated Assembly, they will get cuts in the NHS, whereas in England we will see increases in the NHS because of the magnificent work of my right hon. Friend.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

Q3. People have been shocked at the scale and extent of the phone hacking allegations against some of our most popular newspapers. In order to uncover the truth, will the Prime Minister instigate a full judicial inquiry and, in particular, look at the relationship between the Metropolitan police and News International?

[The Prime Minister]

What is absolutely clear is that phone hacking is not only unacceptable but against the law. It is illegal; it is a criminal offence, and I would urge the police and the prosecuting authorities to follow the evidence wherever it leads. That must happen first, and we must not let anything get in the way of criminal investigations.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister explain why, if there is a genuine pause in the enactment of the Health and Social Care Bill, the inception of cluster primary care trusts that are preceding the GP consortia, including the Greater Manchester cluster PCT, has been brought forward from 1 June to 3 May? Is not this pause nothing more than window dressing? It is political manoeuvring before next week’s elections.

[The Prime Minister]

No, I think the hon. Lady is wrong. This is a genuine exercise in trying to ensure that we get the very best out of these reforms. We are looking specifically at areas such as public accountability, choice and competition, education and training, and the patient involvement aspects of the reforms. Of course we have to go ahead with driving out the bureaucracy and additional costs from the NHS. We inherited from Labour, I think rightly, a £20 billion efficiency programme, and we have got to take that through, but there is a genuine opportunity to make these reforms better still.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

Q4. Suffolk is among the worst-served areas of the country for broadband, and the commonly cited final third of premises beyond the reach of commercial broadband deployment is more like a final two thirds in that area. Given that nearly one fifth of all Suffolk premises receive a speed of less than 2 megabytes per second, does the Prime Minister agree that investment in broadband in Suffolk is essential to boost our economic recovery?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must put this investment in. We are spending, I think, £530 million investing in broadband. Particularly in rural areas, broadband is going to be absolutely vital in driving the creation of the small businesses and growing businesses that will be so important to keep the growth of employment in our country.

[Edward Miliband]

Can the Prime Minister tell us why 98.7% of nurses have no confidence in his health reorganisation?

[The Prime Minister]

Inevitably, when you make changes in public services, it is a challenge taking people with you. But that is the whole point of pausing the reforms and then trying to get them going again with greater support from doctors and nurses. What we are finding is that 90% of the country is covered by GP fundholding practices that want to see these reforms succeed. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that if he wants to make some constructive suggestions, why not have a try?

[Edward Miliband]

Dearie me, that wasn’t a very good answer, was it? I asked the Prime Minister why 98.7% of nurses have no confidence in his policy. It is because it is a bad policy, a policy nobody voted for. It is a policy that was not in the Prime Minister’s manifesto, it was not in the Deputy Prime Minister’s manifesto either at the general election, and it was not even in the coalition agreement. Perhaps one of the reasons why nurses have no confidence in his policy is that two years ago, he went to the Royal College of Nursing and said there would be no more pointless, top-down reorganisations.

Next question: why is it that hospital waiting times fell year on year under the last Labour Government, but have risen month on month under this Government?

[The Prime Minister]

That is simply not the case. If we look at out-patient waiting times, we find that they fell in the last month, so the right hon. Gentleman is simply wrong about that, as he usually is. I have had the opportunity to study his representations about the reforms, and I have had a good look at them. He says that we are introducing EU competition policy for the first time; we are not. He says we are allowing GPs to charge; we are not. He says that patients will be left without services; they will not. Why does he not realise that instead of frightening people, he ought to make a constructive contribution.

[Edward Miliband]

Another totally hopeless answer! I asked about waiting times. The Department of Health figures are these: waiting times are 20% up for those waiting more than 18 weeks, and A and E waits are at a record level compared to six years ago. One of the reasons why waiting times have gone up is that the right hon. Gentleman is diverting billions of pounds from patient care into this costly reorganisation. Let me make this suggestion: just for once, why does he not listen to the doctors, the patients and the nurses and scrap his reorganisation?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman asks me to listen to doctors, so here is one doctor I am definitely going to listen to. I hope Opposition Members will remember Howard Stoate, who was the Member of Parliament for Dartford. He is no longer an MP because he lost the election—because of the Conservative candidate, I am afraid. He is now a GP—[Interruption.] Calm down, dear. Listen to the doctor. Howard Stoate, GP, says:

“My… discussions with fellow GPs… reveal overwhelming enthusiasm for the”—

[Interruption.] I said calm down. Calm down, dear—and I will say it to the shadow Chancellor, if he likes. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let us briefly have the answer and move on to Back Benchers, whose rights I am interested in protecting. I want a brief answer from the Prime Minister.

[The Prime Minister]

This is a very brief quote from a Labour MP who is now a GP. He said:

“My… discussions with fellow GPs… reveal overwhelming enthusiasm for the chance to help shape services for the patients they see daily”.

That is what Labour MPs, now acting as GPs, think of the reforms. That is what is happening.

[Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)]

Apologise to her!

[The Prime Minister]

I am not going to apologise; you do need to calm down. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber. [Interruption.] Order. It makes a very bad impression on the public as a whole, and others are waiting to contribute. I think the Prime Minister has finished.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

During the recess, a number of European issues have arisen: the Portuguese bail-out, the increase in the European budget and proposals for corporation tax at the European level. Will the Prime Minister re-coin a phrase and simply say to all those matters, “No, no, no”?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about the European budget. The idea of a 5% increase at a time when member states are having to make reductions in difficult public spending programmes at home is completely unacceptable, and we will make sure it does not happen.

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

Q5. On the proposal to build the largest wind farm in England in my constituency with 45 wind turbines 100 metres or more high, just less than a mile away from two big conurbations and on beautiful landscape in the area, can the Prime Minister tell us what influence my constituents will have under the Localism Bill on the planning decision concerning this massive intrusion on the landscape? Will he ask the relevant planning Minister to meet me and a delegation of constituents to discuss it further?

[The Prime Minister]

I am happy to arrange that meeting. I think it important for local people to have a greater say in planning decisions, and that is what we are enabling them to do. However, I also believe that when wind farms go ahead, local people should see a greater benefit in terms of the finance that goes into the area, and our plans will achieve that as well.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

In 2007, the Labour Government implemented the Medical Training Application Service, or MTAS. Junior doctors will remember what a disaster it was. That large-scale, disruptive and untested system had disastrous consequences for junior doctors in training. Is the Prime Minister aware that there are concerns that the current proposals to reorganise medical training and work force planning could have similar unforeseen consequences?

[The Prime Minister]

I must say to my hon. Friend that she is a lot better at getting them to shut up than I am. I think that she is a future Speaker in the making.

I can absolutely guarantee to my hon. Friend that we will not make the mistake that the last Government made in respect of medical training. They created an utter shambles.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Q6. Eddie Kay from Maghull received excellent treatment when he was in hospital recently, and I am glad to say that he is recovering well. However, while he was in hospital his operation was cancelled four times, and he was also told of bed closures and nursing redundancies on his ward. Does not Mr Kay’s experience show that the Prime Minister was wrong to claim that he would not cut the NHS?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course things go wrong in our national health service, which is one of the reasons why I think that we need to reform and modernise it. The fact is, however, that at the last election only one party said that it would increase the NHS in real terms, and that is exactly what we are doing. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about NHS cuts, he should have words with his colleagues in Wales who are proposing to cut the national health service—not in cash terms, but in real terms—and he should help us to put a stop to that.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Q14. Across the country, 2 million families are on waiting lists for social housing. Nearly 1 million homes lie empty, and the average age of a first-time buyer is 37. Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that there is a housing crisis in Britain, and will the Government publish a strategy to tackle it?

[The Prime Minister]

We do acknowledge the very difficult situation that we inherited. House building was at a 60 or 70-year low. We need to introduce ways of ensuring that local communities see more houses built. The old top-down system did not work, but I believe that the new homes bonus and the incentives that we are giving local authorities will mean that extra housing goes ahead.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/ Co-op)]

Q7. Rather than losing his rag because he is losing the argument, will the Prime Minister explain why waiting times have been rising in my constituency and across the country?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong about waiting times. I quoted the figures. Waiting times have been broadly stable over the last couple of years—that is a fact.

The key point that I would make to the hon. Gentleman, who is meant to be a moderniser, is that if he wants to see waiting times come down and stay down, the best answer is a system that involves greater choice, and enables patients to choose where they are treated and establish how quickly they can be treated. The hon. Gentleman used to be a moderniser; there is still time to get on board.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Q15. I am engaged in a consultation with my constituents in east Cheshire on an issue that is of great concern to them: the commercialisation and sexualisation of childhood. As a parent, does my right hon. Friend agree with my constituents that action needs to be taken to find real solutions to this challenging issue, and to give every child the childhood that it deserves?

[The Prime Minister]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. As a parent of three little ones, I know that it is incredibly worrying to see what is becoming available in some shops and other places. We are, effectively, asking our children to grow up too early. I think that there is a lot more that we can do, which is why we have asked the chief executive of the Mothers’ Union to conduct an independent review of this vital area. We are looking at a range of specific issues including television, video and other pressures that are put on people, and we expect the report to be published in a few weeks’ time.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Q8. The Prime Minister has described hospices as one of the great successes of the big society, so why, as a result of his Government’s increases in VAT and cuts in gift aid, is Nightingale House hospice in my constituency paying an extra £20,000 to his friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year? Will he give it the money back?

[The Prime Minister]

The point I would make to the hon. Gentleman is that the hospice movement is a fantastic example of the big society and we should see it expand, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has increased gift aid so that more people can give more money more effectively. As the hon. Gentleman is another Welsh Member of Parliament, let me put this point to him: why is he supporting an NHS cut in Wales that will hit not just hospices but hospitals, GPs and community services? That is what is coming out of this Question Time. Labour is cutting the NHS; you cannot trust Labour with our national health service.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

Q9. The whole House will be aware that younger women drivers face a massive hike in their insurance premiums next year as a direct result of a European Court judgment. In that context, does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment that this judgment has been warmly welcomed by London’s Labour MEP Mary Honeyball, who has indicated that she considers it to be admirable and the price of equality?

[The Prime Minister]

Well, I have to say to my hon. Friend that that shows that some of the loony left is still alive and well in our country. [Interruption.] I think you’ll find it’s over there. Frankly, insurance premiums ought to reflect risk, and my hon. Friend is, as ever, displaying common sense, whereas the European Court did not.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

Q10. It is now almost 12 months since the Prime Minister visited the West Cumberland hospital in my constituency in the wake of the shooting atrocities that took place there. It is, I believe, a matter of profound regret to Members on both sides of the House that the Government have chosen to do nothing on gun laws in the intervening period, but while the Prime Minister was at the hospital he also visited the accident and emergency clinicians and other clinical service providers, who are now facing the prospect of their services being removed as a result of GP commissioning. Will he do them and my constituents a favour by removing GP commissioning from the Health and Social Care Bill?

[The Prime Minister]

First, I well remember visiting the hospital in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. It is a fantastic hospital and it did brilliant work during those incredibly tragic times about which he spoke. I can absolutely reassure him that he does not need to worry about the future of the West Cumberland hospital. I understand that he has met the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), to discuss the concerns, and they are in agreement that issues need to be resolved swiftly. The Department of Health is working closely with the local NHS to produce proposals to redevelop the hospital. That is what is going to happen: investment will be going into the NHS because of the commitments we have made, whereas, sadly, I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman’s party—[Interruption.] Luckily, he is not in Wales, where Labour is cutting the NHS, but I suspect it would do the same in England as well.

[Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)]

Q11. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be aware that this country lost 1.7 million manufacturing jobs under the last Labour Government. Will he explain what plans the Government have to make sure this decline is reversed?

[The Prime Minister]

We have already seen over the last year an increase in manufacturing output and in manufacturing exports. I was up in Bedford last week at the GM plant, which is massively expanding. It is creating more jobs and bringing £150 million of offshore contracts back into the UK. We are backing that with low tax rates, deregulation and more apprenticeships. This is a Government who are pro-enterprise, pro-jobs and pro-manufacturing and who are going to dig us out of the mess the last lot left.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Q12. Does not the nightmare of Fukushima mean that the planned renaissance of nuclear power will be stillborn? Should not the Prime Minister be planning for a future that will be free of the cost, fear and anxiety of nuclear power, and rich in renewables that are British, that are green, and that are inexhaustible and safe?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course we have to learn the lessons from Fukushima but, as I have said before, that is a different reactor design in a different part of the world with different pressures. The British nuclear industry has a good safety record, but, clearly, it has to go on proving that, and doing so in the light of the new evidence, such as it is, that comes out of Japan. That is what must happen, and the head of the nuclear inspectorate will do exactly that.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

The Prime Minister is a vociferous opponent of the alternative vote system and reserves special disdain for the idea that someone might win after coming second in an early round. Will he therefore stand aside in favour of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), who beat him to the post in 2005?

[The Prime Minister]

I seem to remember that my leadership contest ended up with the two of us touring the country and it was a popular vote. I am pleased to say that, unlike in some parties around here, the person who won actually won.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Q13. Given that our recovery has, in effect, stalled since he became Prime Minister, does the right hon. Gentleman stand by what he said to this House after his first Budget last June, which was that unemployment will fall “every year” in this Parliament?

[The Prime Minister]

I was quoting the Office for Budget Responsibility, but the fact is that 390,000 more people are in private sector jobs than there were a year ago. I would have thought with the economy growing, with exports up, with manufacturing up and with more people in work, the right hon. Gentleman should be welcoming that, instead of joining the doom-mongers on his Front Bench, who can only talk the economy down.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister join me in calling for an independent international review following the UN report into the crimes committed by the Sri Lankan Government against the Tamil people?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. There are still unanswered questions from that period, and I will look closely at what he says and write to him.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The service of our armed forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere deserves to be recognised at the highest level and all the time, as the Prime Minister has often said. Why on earth, therefore, have the Royal Irish Regiment and the Irish Guards been denied a homecoming parade in Belfast? Will the Prime Minister intervene and talk to colleagues to ensure that this process of recognition for our troops and appreciation by the citizens of Northern Ireland can rightly take place as soon as possible?

[The Prime Minister]

First, let me thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising this issue, because the bravery of the Royal Irish Regiment and the Irish Guards in Afghanistan has been outstanding and, sadly, both regiments have suffered loss of life during their recent deployments. As I understand it, a number of homecoming events will be taking place across Northern Ireland. We are discussing with Belfast city council and others how we can give recognition to their tremendous bravery. No decision has yet been made and I will make sure he is fully involved in those discussions. It is also worth noting that because they are actually stationed in north Shropshire, they have already had a very successful homecoming parade in Market Drayton, and I am sure that they will have many others besides.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Crawley borough council on freezing its council tax this year? Can he say how many other local authorities across the country have frozen their council tax, against the advice of the Labour party, which described that policy as a “gimmick”?

[The Prime Minister]

I am pleased to announce that in spite of the fact that Labour dismissed it as a “gimmick” and that the leader of the Labour party said that councils ought to be able to charge more, every single council in the country has given their hard-pressed council tax payers a council tax freeze. We all remember what happened over the last 10 years when council tax doubled. It was the tax of choice of the Labour party, taking money out of people’s pockets. We are freezing that council tax to give people a break, and they deserve it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Machinery of Government Changes

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Written Statements

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I can announce the following changes to the machinery of government:

The National Fraud Authority, an Executive agency of the Attorney-General’s Office, will transfer to the Home Office.

Responsibility for issuing British passports overseas will transfer from the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

Responsibility for the Galileo programme will transfer from the Secretary of State for Transport to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills; responsibility for the space component of the Global Monitoring for Environment and Security Programme will transfer from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills; and UK input to both programmes will be led by the UK Space Agency, bringing together all parts of the Government’s policy on civil space.

The National School of Government will be brought into the Cabinet Office and will therefore cease to be a separate non-ministerial department.

Libya/European Council

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Libya and report back from last week’s European Council. On Libya, I want to update the House on military action, on the steps that we are taking to strengthen and deepen the alliance, on our efforts to ensure that humanitarian aid gets through and on plans for the future, including the conference that we are holding tomorrow.

First, on military action, I believe that it is quite clear that allied operations have had a significant and beneficial effect. We have stopped the assault on Benghazi and helped to create conditions in which a number of towns have been liberated from Gaddafi’s onslaught. In towns such as Ajdabiya, Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad, people are now free to return to their homes. The no-fly zone is now fully operational and effective. When it has been challenged, Gaddafi’s planes have been shot down. He can no longer terrorise the Libyan people from the air.

UK pilots have now made more than 120 sorties and flown for more than 250 hours. Over the weekend, RAF Tornados continued to conduct armed reconnaissance sorties, hitting a total of 22 tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery pieces around Ajdabiya and Misrata. This involved some extremely skilful and courageous work by British pilots seeking out and destroying tanks while doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties. I am sure that everyone here will want to send their best thoughts and wishes to our brave pilots and all those in our armed services for the work they do.

I can also tell the House that during the early hours of this morning our Tornado pilots flew deep into the desert to strike against major ammunition bunkers at Sabha, which we believe were being used to resupply Gaddafi’s forces, including those terrorising people in Misrata. Initial reports suggest that the bunkers have been destroyed.

There remain, of course, real issues of concern. The situation of civilians in Misrata and Zintan is extremely grave, and the situation for civilians in other towns under the regime’s control is also deeply concerning, with widespread reports of human rights abuses. But we have moved quickly and decisively over the last week and we will stick to our task, as set out in the UN resolution and take all necessary measures to protect civilian life.

Secondly, on the strengthening and deepening of the alliance, I told the House last week that we believed NATO should take on the command and control of Libyan operations. This has now been agreed. NATO is already co-ordinating the arms embargo, the maritime operation and the no-fly zone. Now it will take on command and control of all military operations, including those to protect the civilian population. Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard has been appointed as the NATO commander of the joint taskforce for the operation.

I have also made clear the crucial importance of the further active involvement of Arab nations. On Friday, the United Arab Emirates confirmed it would provide 12 fast jets, six F-16s and six Mirages, while on Saturday jets from the Qatari royal air force flew over Libyan airspace to patrol the no-fly zone for the first time. We look forward to welcoming the representatives of five Arab states, the Arab League and the African Union at our conference tomorrow.

Thirdly, it is critically important that humanitarian aid gets through to those who need it. It is absolutely clear that when the Gaddafi regime occupies a town such as Ajdabiya, the people suffer terribly. When the regime leaves a town, the way is open for proper humanitarian access. The important thing now is to make sure that it happens.

Our strategy is to help fund the humanitarian organisations that have been able to get in, to help the UN play its co-ordinating role and to provide assistance at Libya’s borders. We have funded the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is now present in Misrata, to provide support for up to 100,000 people for basic necessities and to treat 3,000 walking wounded. We flew 12,000 migrant workers trapped on the Tunisian border back to their countries and their families and we delivered 2,000 large tents and 38,000 blankets to the border. We will continue to give intense focus to humanitarian access in the coming days.

Fourthly, on plans for the future, in order to make the pressure on the Gaddafi regime as effective as possible, it is vital that we have the maximum political and diplomatic unity around the world. At the European Council, Europe came together over Libya. The Council conclusions endorsed UN Security Council resolution 1973, set out Europe’s

“determination to contribute to its implementation”

and recognised the lives saved by our action so far. This is an important step forward and it shows that Europe is now fully on board with this mission.

Today, alongside the British and French aircraft, there are Danish, Dutch and Spanish aircraft taking part in the action over Libya, flying from Italian bases, working with warships from the UK, France, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands and Poland. Romania will also provide a frigate and the Turks are planning to make naval assets available, too. Tomorrow, Britain will host a broad international conference in London to review progress and plan for the future. This will include representatives from more than 40 countries, including all the military contributors to the operation, and the United Nations Secretary-General will also be there.

I can tell the House this afternoon that France and the UK will issue a joint statement to the conference participants, setting out what is at stake as we gather to support a new beginning for Libya. A copy of the statement is in the Library.

Libya’s new beginning requires three things: first, to reaffirm our commitment to UN Security Council resolution 1973 and the broad alliance determined to implement it; secondly, to ensure the delivery of humanitarian aid, including to the newly liberated towns; and, thirdly, to help plan for the future of Libya after the conflict is over. It is for the people of Libya to choose how they are governed and who governs them, but they have a far better chance of doing that as we stand today than they did 10 days ago. Had we not acted, their future would already have been decided for them.

Let me now turn to the economic issues discussed at the Council. Britain had two goals at the summit: first, to support the euro area’s efforts to bring stability to the eurozone while fully protecting Britain’s sovereignty, and, secondly, following our Budget for growth last week, to win support for a similarly ambitious pro-growth, pro-market agenda for Europe as a whole. Let me take those two goals in turn.

I have always said that a successful eurozone is in Britain’s national interest. Given that 40% of our trade is with eurozone countries, we want the eurozone to deal with its problems and challenges, and we should therefore welcome the steps to which eurozone countries are committing themselves to taking with the euro plus pact. However, I have also said that Britain is not in the euro and will not be joining the euro, so it is right that we should not be involved in the euro area’s internal arrangements. That is why we are not intending to join the “pact” that euro area countries have agreed. It is also why I believe that we should not have any liability for bailing out the eurozone, but given the current emergency arrangements, established under article 122, we do have such a liability.

That decision was taken by the previous Government, and it is a decision to which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor specifically objected when it was taken by his predecessor after the election but before this Government took office. Frustratingly, we are stuck with it for the duration of the emergency mechanism, but that is why I ensured last December that the eurozone treaty change would carve Britain out of the eurozone bailout arrangements when the new permanent arrangements were introduced in 2013, and specifically secured agreement that, from that point onwards, article 122 would not be used for this purpose. That ends our current potential liability, and makes it clear that from 2013 Britain will not be dragged into bailing out the eurozone.

My second goal was growth. There was clear agreement at the Council about the link between action on deficits and action for growth. As the conclusions clearly state, fiscal consolidation

“should be frontloaded in Member States facing very large structural deficits or very high or rapidly increasing levels of public debt.”

We agree. It is worth noting that the UK still has one of the highest budget deficits in the EU—higher than those of Greece, Spain and Portugal—but because of the actions we have taken our interest rates are closer to those of Germany. It is also worth noting that the EU forecast is for the UK to grow in 2011 faster than France, Spain, Italy, the eurozone average and the EU average.

Just as we have a Budget for growth in the British economy, we need a plan for growth in the European economy. In advance of the Council, I organised a letter, which was signed by nine countries, making the case for specific actions to support growth: completing the single market and extending it to services, boosting trade, opening up and connecting European and global markets, reducing regulation, supporting innovation, and unleashing enterprise. That has had a real impact, not least because the argument is now being made not just by Britain but by Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. As a result, the European Council endorsed much of our approach. We agreed that we should focus on concluding the Doha round and other free trade agreements in 2011. We also agreed that

“the overall regulatory burden should be reduced”,

and that micro-enterprises should be exempted from certain future regulations. That moratorium, which mirrors the moratorium on regulation for small businesses in last week’s Budget, is a positive endorsement of the approach we are taking in Britain.

Finally, the Council discussed how Europe could help Japan to recover from the devastation caused by the earthquake and the tsunami. I spoke to the Japanese Prime Minister on Friday. As the House knows, we have provided search and rescue teams, and stand ready to help in other ways. I know that everyone in the House will applaud the resilience and courage of the Japanese people during these tragic times. Looking to the future, we should show solidarity with the Japanese, and help both our economies by pushing forward with a free trade deal between Japan and the EU. At Britain’s instigation, the Council conclusions explicitly refer to the

“potential launch of negotiations for a free trade agreement .”

At this Council, Europe was faced with a choice: to rise to the challenges facing our continent, or to take the path of least resistance. On Libya, Europe chose to come together around the stand taken by Britain, France and the United States to respond to the call of the Arab League and save people on our continent’s doorstep from slaughter. On the economy, Europe chose a new direction, based on the principles set out by Britain and other member states, for stronger growth and prosperity.

For too long Europe has focused on issues of process and structure. Last week, Britain helped Europe to focus on policies and people: on creating prosperity for its citizens, and confronting a humanitarian crisis on its southern border.

I commend the statement to the House.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement.

I want to concentrate my questions on Libya, but let me first deal with the issues of economic policy and Japan. On economic policy, I welcome the Europe 2020 conclusions, the proposals on economic governance and the commitment—which I do not think the Prime Minister mentioned—to explore an international financial transactions tax. On the international financial transactions tax, may I ask the Prime Minister for clarity on the UK’s position and urge him to take forward discussions actively both with the United States and at the G20? On the 2020 strategy, we saw some welcome progress, as the Prime Minister said. The European Council also talked about the priority of “reducing unemployment”, which the Prime Minister did not mention in his report to the House. I wonder whether he shared recent UK experience with his colleagues and told them that the forecasts for UK unemployment have been revised up for each and every one of the next five years by up to 200,000—something the Chancellor failed to mention in his Budget speech. May I also ask whether the Prime Minister told the Council that he had recently unveiled a Budget for growth that downgraded growth this year, next year and the year after? Did he warn Council colleagues about the dangers of going too far and too fast?

On Japan, I share the sentiments the Prime Minister expressed about all possible help for reconstruction being given to the Government and people of Japan. The immediate priority for the UK Government will rightly be the situation of our citizens, but, looking to the future, will the Prime Minister update the House on the timetable for the report he has commissioned by Mike Weightman on any lessons that might need to be learned for British nuclear plants? It is important that this report is completed quickly, because we do not want to delay without reason the important progress we need to make on new nuclear power in our country.

Turning to Libya, may I start by welcoming the strong and unanimous position adopted by the European Council? I welcome the fact that the military operation to enforce the no-fly zone and protect civilians is showing signs of success. Now that the rebels are advancing, will the Prime Minister assure us that efforts are being made to remind them of their own humanitarian obligations to respect human rights and protect civilians at all times? Lord Ashdown raised a number of concerns this morning, and, for the record, may I ask the Prime Minister to repeat his reassurance of last week that the UN resolution is aimed at the protection of the Libyan people, not choosing the Libyan Government?

On the question of command and control arrangements for the military operation, I welcome the decision to move to the NATO command structure. Will the Prime Minister say a bit more about the governance arrangements that will now be in place for that, and in particular what the relationship will be between the North Atlantic Council and the narrower group, which I believe the French are convening, of those directly involved in military action? Given the importance of maintaining Arab support, I welcome the meeting being hosted tomorrow by the Foreign Secretary with a broad alliance of countries. What continuing role will this wider group play, and how often will it meet?

May I also emphasise to the Prime Minister another point: the importance of post-conflict planning? Whatever the eventual outcome in Libya, the peace is set to be as challenging as the conflict. Will he clarify where he believes responsibility for post-conflict planning lies? In particular, which institution, UN or otherwise, is in his view best placed to oversee this work, and does he see the case for a particular individual being asked to lead the international community’s efforts?

I think we both agree that the international community should continue with a strategy that includes non-military means. I therefore welcome the intention of the European Council to strengthen sanctions against the Gaddafi regime. The Council’s conclusions say that EU member states will be proposing the adoption of further sanctions measures at the UN Security Council. Will the Prime Minister say more about the scope and timing of those proposals? Finally on Libya, given that we have a long recess coming up, may I urge the Prime Minister to keep open the possibility of the House being recalled, should events require it?

Turning to events in the wider region, may I also welcome the words in the European Council conclusions about Syria, Yemen and Bahrain? It remains essential that we avoid the reality, or the impression, of double standards. May I therefore ask the Prime Minister what specific actions the Government are taking to attempt to prevent further repression in these countries?

Finally, may I once again pay tribute to the efforts of our armed forces? They are doing extraordinary work, protecting the people of Libya and enforcing the will of the United Nations. We owe them huge gratitude.

[The Prime Minister]

I will take the right hon. Gentleman’s comments in reverse order. First, I thank him for what he says about our armed forces. He is right to say that they have, as ever, performed with great courage, professionalism and dedication; they are extraordinarily capable and brave people and this country is lucky to have them. He asked about other countries and whether we are sending a clear message. I believe our message should be clear: the way to meet the aspirations of people in north Africa and in the Arab world is with reform and dialogue, not with repression. We have made that clear throughout and it is important.

The right hon. Gentleman asked that we keep the House up to date and I certainly intend to do that. I can let him know, because I have checked this, that in my first 10 months as Prime Minister I have made 15 statements in this House. I am told that that is more than John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown or indeed Margaret Thatcher made, so I think I am doing my bit to keep the House informed.

[Edward Miliband]

Well done.

[The Prime Minister]

Thank you very much. I will certainly look at what arrangements need to be put in place for information to be regularly published and discussed in this House, because I am keen that that should happen.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about post-conflict planning and which body is in the lead. As I said in my statement, we want to make sure that the UN feels firmly in the driving seat; Baroness Amos does an excellent job and the UN should be gripping this emerging picture and working with those agencies that have managed to get through to places such as Misrata and Ajdabiya, and elsewhere. He asked about the wider group that will meet as well as NATO members. We are going to be forming a sort of contact group of friends of Libya for the future, but all the operations are now going to be run with command and control and co-ordination provided through the NATO machinery.

The right hon. Gentleman asked whether the emphasis is still on protecting people, not regime change. That is right—the UN Security Council resolution is all about putting in place the no-fly zone; protecting civilians, using all necessary measures; and, of course, humanitarian aid. He asked for assurances that we will make it clear to the rebels how they should behave in terms of civilian life. We are now in proper contact with the rebels; a Foreign Office official is having discussions with them. That is vital as we need to get to know and work with them, and make these points to them.

The right hon. Gentleman rightly refers to the fact that there was a discussion on nuclear energy at the European Council. We agreed to stress test all EU nuclear facilities, making sure that that is done by the appropriate bodies, carried out by independent regulators, properly peer-reviewed and tested. Europe must learn all the lessons from the Fukushima nuclear plant. I cannot give a timetable for the report we will be carrying out through the chief nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, but it will be done as fast as possible.

I now turn to Europe and the financial transactions tax, which was mentioned in the Council’s conclusions. We are very happy to look at this, but we believe it has to be done on a global basis. There is a great danger of a group of countries deciding to do this and just seeing financial transactions go completely out of their area, so it must be done on a global basis.

Finally, on Europe, the right hon. Gentleman made some points about unemployment. We did discuss unemployment. In Britain, as he knows, we have seen the claimant count come down and we have seen 300,000 more people in work. I would just make a point about the message coming clearly from Europe. Commission President Barroso has said:

“Without fiscal consolidation, there is no confidence, without confidence there are no investments, without investments there is no growth.”

That is a lesson the Labour party could well learn.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

On the economic aspect of the Prime Minister’s statement, does he agree that the recent election in Germany shows that the German people have lost patience with the European Union, as have the British electorate?

[The Prime Minister]

I am not an expert in the politics of Baden Württemberg, but I suspect that this is partly about the euro and the effects of the euro. I think that there are also strong feelings about nuclear power in Germany. The point I would make is that whatever our views about the euro—I think that my hon. Friend and I agree that we should stay out of it—it is in Britain’s interests that the eurozone sorts itself out, because that is the destination for a lot of our exports. So we should support these countries in what they want to do to deal with their problems and challenges.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

Does the Prime Minister accept that when he referred to the discussions that took place last May on the eurozone fund he gave a somewhat incomplete account of my conversation with the now Chancellor? We did indeed agree that we should do everything we could to keep Britain out of the main part of the rescue fund, but in relation to the smaller element to which the Prime Minister refers, what we discussed was not voting against, but abstention, recognising that Britain could have been outvoted—that is exactly the same thing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to when dealing with Ireland. So when the Prime Minister next refers to this issue, perhaps he would give the whole account, not a partial account, of what happened.

[The Prime Minister]

Fortunately, I have had a full discussion with the Chancellor about that issue and he was absolutely clear that it was something to which Britain should not agree; nor should we. The problem is that we are stuck with this mechanism, which I have managed to get rid of once the new mechanism is introduced. That is the sort of action, frankly, that we have needed in Europe these past few years.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

When considering any of the variety of proposals that may be on the table at tomorrow’s meeting, will the Prime Minister do all in his power to prevent the endorsement of any proposals that would enable Colonel Gaddafi to regenerate the apparatus of terror and oppression that has sustained him for too long?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that question. This is a very important point. All sorts of people will quite rightly want to ensure that there will be a proper political process at some stage so that Libya can transition to democracy. It is important, however, that while such clear and flagrant breaches of the UN Security Council resolution are going on, we should do everything we can to protect people and, as a result, the Gaddafi regime will effectively be driven back.

[David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)]

May I strongly associate myself with the Prime Minister’s words about the successes of the past week in justifying the UN Security Council resolution on Libya? The rebels’ progress more than reflects the widespread view across the House about the importance of the resolution. However, the Prime Minister did not say much about the European Union’s relations with the rest of the Arab world in future. One reason to support the resolution was the danger for the rest of the Arab world of Gaddafi’s potential slaughter. Will the Prime Minister say something about the potential for conditionality in EU engagement with the countries of the middle east and north Africa on trade, development and other matters as we go forward in support of democratic governance in north Africa?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which is that Europe’s engagement with north Africa and the middle east has not always been very successful in the past, particularly on the grounds that he describes. There has not been enough conditionality on the progress those countries need to make towards more open societies and the building blocks of democracy, getting rid of emergency laws and the rest of it. The European Council conclusions, like those from our emergency summit, talk about putting in place a new partnership and making a new offer to these countries with deeper economic integration, broader market access and greater co-operation and, in return for that, we should ask for more conditionality in the progress that they make. Money is not the problem; there has been plenty of money put into these areas by Europe. We need more of a focus on what we believe we should be getting out of it.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister use tomorrow’s summit to clarify the rules of engagement? He will be aware of the criticism of the attacks on the arms dumps as they have been considered to involve a fairly broad interpretation of the UN resolution. Does he agree that it is critical that the future of Libya is not cluttered up with acrimony among the political consensus that he has successfully built up?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I would disagree with anyone who says that destroying a Gaddafi arms dump is not in the terms of the resolution, and for the following reason. We can see very clearly what Gaddafi’s regime is doing in Misrata, in Zintan and in other places. He is using munitions to kill people—to murder his own citizens—so depriving him of weapons is not only in the letter of the resolution but in its spirit, too.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Further to the question asked by the former Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), I am sure that there will have been an official note of the conversations between the former Chancellor and the present Chancellor. Will the Prime Minister publish that note so that we can decide for ourselves whether he or the former Chancellor is providing the more accurate report?

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly look at the suggestion because I am absolutely clear about what the conversation was and that the current Chancellor did not support the action being taken by the previous Chancellor.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

The Prime Minister rightly points out that the Budget last week went into some detail about the support that we were going to give to small and start-up businesses. Will he go into a little more detail about the work he did this weekend in the European Council on micro-businesses, which will clearly be important organisms for growth in employment in the years ahead, both in Europe and throughout the world?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Businesses that are either starting up now or are yet to start up will provide a lot of the growth in jobs, investment and opportunity here and elsewhere in Europe. What was encouraging about this European Council was that the Commission itself, in response to the letter that we had produced with other countries, brought up its own proposals, one of which was a moratorium on certain regulations for all new businesses for a specific period. That does not go quite as far as what we have done in the UK, but to hear the Commission talk about deregulation, cutting the burden of regulation and taking regulations off new small businesses was, I thought, very good progress.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I welcome the references in today’s statement to the access to humanitarian help. Now that the rebels are advancing well, is it not time for coalition countries, particularly this country, to give us some idea when the Government will consider that the job is done? Also, will the Prime Minister please confirm that all possible diplomatic avenues are still open?

[The Prime Minister]

First, in terms of diplomatic avenues, it is welcome that there is now British diplomatic representation talking with the opposition in Benghazi—I think that is hugely welcome. In terms of when the job will be done, I think the answer is when the UN Security Council resolution has been secured. Let me take the right hon. Gentleman back to what the President of the United States said:

“Qaddafi must stop his troops from advancing on Benghazi, pull them back from Ajdabiya, Misrata and Zawiya, and establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas. Humanitarian assistance must be allowed to reach the people of Libya. Let me be clear, these terms are not negotiable”.

Of course, Gaddafi has been driven back from Benghazi and out of Ajdabiya, but he is still terrorising and killing people in Misrata and terrorising other towns, he has not allowed humanitarian access and he is in flagrant breach of the Security Council resolution. I think now is the time to press ahead—helping those civilians, making sure those lives are saved and giving the Libyan people the chance of a different future.

[Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)]

The Prime Minister has suggested that we are liable for the bail-out mechanism entirely thanks to the former Chancellor. In that case, will he be happy for the current Chancellor to respond to my freedom of information request and publish the advice that he received on this matter on assuming office to demonstrate that we are not liable for the bail-out billions because of any failure to grasp the small print in those first few halcyon days in office?

[The Prime Minister]

I can go into even more detail if my hon. Friend wants: article 122 was turned into qualified majority voting via the Nice treaty. My right hon. and learned Friend, Michael Howard, who is now in another place, said, as a Back Bencher, “You are making a terrible mistake here: this could be used for future bail-outs,” and the then Europe Minister, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), said in reply:

“The use of QMV…does not undermine the no-bail-out rule set out in article 103.”—[Official Report, 4 July 2001; Vol. 371, c. 359.]

What is worrying is that the Nice treaty made the situation worse and the previous Government were warned about it but they did not pay any attention.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Is it the policy of the British Government to try to bring about a genuine ceasefire in Libya as apparently urged by Turkey? Is there not a danger that the manner in which allied operations are taking place means that we are getting near to regime change, which is certainly outside the United Nations Security Council resolution?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course, everyone would welcome a genuine ceasefire, but let us be frank—two ceasefires have been announced by Colonel Gaddafi, both of which were broken instantly by him, so I think we should have a heavy degree of scepticism about what this man says. I would not be at all surprised if, in advance of the conference tomorrow, he announced some all-encompassing ceasefire tonight, but we have to judge him by his actions and not his words. That is absolutely vital. I defend what the coalition is doing in terms of some quite robust ground attacks to protect civilian life. Frankly, if those things had not taken place—if we had not destroyed tanks and armoured personnel carriers—we would still see people under the lash of the Gaddafi regime in Ajdabiya and in many other towns along the Libyan coast. What we have done has really helped to implement part of the resolution, but there is still more implementation to be done.

[Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Turkey is a key ally of the United Kingdom and a central part of NATO decision making? Is there a role for Turkey to play in the mediation process that will need to happen over the next few weeks and months?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point. Not only is Turkey coming to the conference tomorrow, but the Turkish Prime Minister, Prime Minister Erdogan, is coming here on Thursday for talks at No. 10. I have also visited Turkey to see him. It was one of the first visits that I made as Prime Minister. The Turks are incredibly important members of NATO, and I believe that they should also be members of the European Union. They should be intricately involved with the operations that are being undertaken in Libya. They may well also have role as a trusted interlocutor, but right now, what they want to do is get their ships involved and get humanitarian assistance involved as well. That is hugely welcome.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

I welcome the grip that the Prime Minister has on the situation, after a slightly unhappy start. When I close my eyes, I hear his predecessor but one, 10 years ago, talking about Kosovo and Sierra Leone in similar terms. On Europe, I welcome his metamorphosis into a pragmatic, fairly friendly European. Will he confirm that we will, if called upon, help our oldest ally, Portugal? When Mrs Thatcher brought the rebate back in 1984, agreed to a tripling of the EU budget, and when Labour Eurosceptics questioned her, she said, “We must help our old friend, Portugal.” Is the Prime Minister still a Thatcherite?

[The Prime Minister]

I am a great admirer and supporter of what Margaret Thatcher did for our country, and I am a great admirer of Portugal. When I talked to the Portuguese in advance of the UN Security Council resolution, they were strong supporters of that resolution and said that one of their reasons was that they wanted to be with their oldest ally. So they see the relationship in that way. On financial issues, we should not speculate about any other country’s financial situation or finances. As to what the right hon. Gentleman says about Europe, I have always believed that we should get stuck in in Europe to fight for the British interest, and that is what I do.

[Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has rightly highlighted the plight of civilians in Misrata. That concern is shared by the Libyan British Relations Council. Will my right hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Defence Secretary to look at ways of getting humanitarian aid into Misrata by sea?

[The Prime Minister]

We are doing just that. There are a number of humanitarian agencies that are trying to get aid into the ports along the Libyan coast. As I said in my statement, we should be trying to give financial assistance to those that are successful, while helping to get the UN to co-ordinate. Obviously, Misrata is a very difficult picture. Fighting has been going on as I have been standing here. It is difficult to get access, but we should do everything we can to help it.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

What steps is the Prime Minister taking, along with others, to avoid an inter-tribal civil war in Libya?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

We believe that the Libyan people should be able to choose their own future. I do not believe that the only alternative to Colonel Gaddafi is some sort of tribal internecine warfare. Many people coming forward in Libya want to see a proper transition. Of course we need to know more about the interim transitional national council, but it is at least a good sign that its members want to be interim, transitional and national, rather than sectarian or tribal. We should be a little more optimistic than the hon. Gentleman sounds in his question.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the initiative of the letter that he signed with nine other countries in the European Union, in particular about the importance of pushing forward with a programme of deregulation in the EU? Does the Prime Minister agree that it is essential that someone takes ownership of this programme, and will he do it?

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly will attempt to do that, but as my hon. Friend knows, one of the issues is that the only organisation that has the right of initiative in the European Union is the Commission, so the key is to work with the Commission and to persuade the Commission that what is needed right now in Europe is deregulation, market reforms and completing the single market. I think President Barroso sees the world like that. There is no fiscal stimulus left to European countries; they have all run out of money. There is not much monetary stimulus left, with interest rates as low as they are. What we need is the stimulus that comes from making it easier to do business, and I think President Barroso gets that.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister referred to the need for maximum political and diplomatic unity. In that context, will he clarify the position as regards attendance at the conference tomorrow? Will all the members of the UN Security Council be there? What is the position of the British Government with regard to the remarks being made from Russia?

[The Prime Minister]

More than 40 Foreign Ministers will be attending tomorrow’s meeting, and it is a meeting of Foreign Ministers, rather than Government Heads and Prime Ministers. In terms of who is coming, it is those countries that are active in the coalition, so there will be strong European representation, but we have also secured, as I said in my statement, strong Arab representation. Countries such as Iraq, Morocco, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar will be there and the Arab League will be represented. I have also heard that the African Union Secretary-General will be there, which is hugely to be welcomed. Not every permanent member of the Security Council will be represented, but crucially Ban Ki-moon will be there, so I think that it is a good opportunity to bring the alliance together to show its strength and depth and to work out the next moves forward, both militarily and politically and diplomatically. It is about showing that the world is still united around UN Security Council resolution 1973 and that there is a group of countries that are determined to implement it in the interests of the world.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I strongly welcome the London summit, particularly the inclusion of Turkey, which is very important, but on the day that the Ashdown report has emphasised the importance of anticipation in humanitarian response, can I ask that, even though the outcome is still very uncertain, both the summit and the European Union discuss not only the current situation in Libya, but the future humanitarian response, reconstruction and recovery scenarios?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, and indeed Lord Ashdown for his very good and timely report. One of the things that we have been looking at for some time is how to get reconstruction and humanitarian aid into countries faster, which is why we have been looking at trying to have a combined military and development approach in some circumstances. In terms of who does the co-ordination, it seems to me that we should be trying to persuade the UN to take a leading role in co-ordinating, but there are some agencies, such as the International Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières, that are already getting into the ports, and we should be helping those that have got there.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I noted what the Prime Minister said about completing the single market and including services. For the benefit of the House, will he clarify whether it is his understanding that, following his NHS legislation, NHS services would become subject to single market competition rules in Europe?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that the hon. Lady will find that it was in 2004 that the previous Government extended EU competition legislation to cover all aspects in the UK, and that has now been progressively extended to health as well. That is my understanding, but if I have got it wrong in any way, I will certainly write to her.

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

I applaud the Prime Minister’s progress on deregulation within the EU, but may I draw his attention to the European Chemicals Agency’s rewriting of the guidelines on the registration, evaluation and authorisation of chemicals, which will add considerable cost to chemical intermediates manufacturers in my constituency? I urge him to support the efforts of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in pushing back on those costly proposals.

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly look into the case my hon. Friend mentions. I have received similar representations from companies in my constituency that are concerned, because they had just about worked out how to comply with one set of rules before seeing another set coming down the track, so I will make sure that BIS is doing as she says.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister confirm whether those armed forces personnel who are either carrying out or supporting operations will now be exempted from redundancy notices?

[The Prime Minister]

What we said very clearly with regard to Afghanistan is that anyone who is about to go on operations, is on operations or has recently returned from operations would not be subject to compulsory redundancy, and I believe that that should apply in all circumstances where people are effectively involved in conflict for their country.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has rightly been commended for the way he has averted a humanitarian catastrophe, but will he say a little more about what will mark the end of this conflict? Ideally we would like to see Gaddafi step down, but is it possible that he could comply with the terms of the no-fly zone and the UN Security Council resolution while remaining in office and keeping the country divided, rather like a new Cyprus?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend asks the extremely difficult and very good question, because it is unclear what will happen next. People did not predict the rush to Benghazi, and nor did they predict the rush back from Benghazi. They did not predict that the rebels would be so effective at knocking the Gaddafi regime out of all those coastal towns, including the key oil installations, so it is difficult to have an absolutely clear picture of what will happen next. I think that what we should hold true to is the very strong UN Security Council resolution that is about a no-fly zone, about protecting civilians and about getting humanitarian aid in. To comply with that, Gaddafi must comply with all the things in the resolution and with what the President of the United States set out in his statement. I see no sign of that happening and, as that is not happening, we are right to go on enforcing the resolution.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I have a dream: I have a dream that one day our country will not be liable for bailing out the eurozone. Will the Prime Minister confirm whether we have contingency funds set aside for any bail-out that goes ahead?

[The Prime Minister]

I share my hon. Friend’s dream, but I have not had to stand on his shoulders, nor he on mine, to realise it; we both have our feet firmly planted on the ground. On that ground, we will be out of all the bail-out arrangements by 2013. That was negotiated by us in Europe, and that is a worthwhile thing that we have achieved, but we are stuck with article 122 in the meantime.

[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

It is good that we will not be liable for bail-outs after 2013, but will the Prime Minister build on his diplomatic successes by using the fact that we have a veto over the permanent arrangements as a lever to extract us earlier—and before we are on the hook for Portugal and Spain?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me just say again that I do not think we should speculate on other countries’ financial situations; we certainly would not like it if they speculated on ours. The point is that, in return for agreeing to the treaty change that was put forward, we had an opportunity to win some benefits for the UK. We got ourselves out of all future bail-out mechanisms, and we got an assurance that article 122 would not be used again once those operations were in place. I think that that was the right approach for the UK. It was doable, it was negotiable and it was tough work, but we got it, and to say that there was some other option on the table is, if I may say so, not realistic.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

Having prevented Gaddafi from doing to his citizens in Benghazi with guns what he did to our citizens in Northern Ireland with cash, has the Prime Minister had time to reflect on the fact that, in publishing the legal advice, in being clear and honest about the objective and in going to the United Nations, he has done a great deal to restore the faith in his office that was so profoundly damaged after Iraq?

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend says. It is right to have debates in the House and to do so on the basis of a proper Cabinet decision. Let me just say that we have published not the legal advice, but a note based on the legal advice, and we will stick to the convention that the Government are entitled to receive legal advice confidentially, and then to act in the terms of that legal advice. When we are being asked all sorts of questions about what is legal and illegal under a UN Security Council resolution, I think that that is the right approach.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the biggest economic boost to Europe would be a successful conclusion of the Doha trade round? Was he not entirely right to keep the Council focused on that matter, and will he update us on progress?

[The Prime Minister]

The issue is about trade both internally within Europe and externally between Europe and other countries. On the first one, it is about completing the single market, and the point to remember is that the single market does not apply to four-fifths of our economy if it does not apply to services properly. On Doha, it is still extremely hard going, but if the Chinese and the Americans can agree to enlarge what is on offer, there is still a prospect of making progress this year. We really need those two countries, however, to focus on the fact that there is a benefit to both of them if they show the political bravery to re-open things and try to make the deal larger.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

Will the Prime Minister assure the House that every effort is being made to protect the safety of UK citizens, including a number of Mancunian Libyans, still trapped in Libya?

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly give that assurance. We are still updating daily the number of British citizens in Libya and the numbers who want to leave. There has obviously been an increase, because so many journalists have gone to the country, but we do what we can with partners to try to get those people out who want to get out. Given that the Turks are now helping us with our diplomatic representation in Tripoli, there are avenues to do that, but if the hon. Gentleman has specific cases in mind, I refer him to the Foreign Secretary and his team, whom I know will do everything that they can to help.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

May I return my right hon. Friend to the communiqué on fiscal consolidation? I wonder whether he would say what message it now gives to those who still oppose tackling deficits on an urgent basis.

[The Prime Minister]

I think the simplest way of putting it is this: if we cut the deficit in half in four years, as Labour proposed, that would mean that in four years’ time our deficit would be about the same size as Portugal’s today. That really brings it home to us that the problem in Britain is that much deeper because the deficit we inherited was that much bigger. That means, as the European Commission and the European Union said:

“Consolidation should be frontloaded in Member States facing very large structural deficits”.

I think they mean us.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The Prime Minister knows that in the past he has promised the repatriation of laws relating to small businesses and employment and social legislation. He also knows that the Deputy Prime Minister has ruled it out. In the context of these promises from the European Council, which may turn out to be a triumph of hope over experience, as far as we can tell from the past, and with the Commission merely offering a report, would my right hon. Friend be good enough to reaffirm his policy of repatriation so that we can re-grow the British economy and pass the legislation overriding European business laws where necessary for our own national interest and growth?

[The Prime Minister]

The point I would make to my hon. Friend is that we had to come together in a coalition Government with a coalition agreement. If we are absolutely honest with ourselves, Europe is not an area where the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives always agree, if I can put it that way. However, in the coalition agreement we came to a good agreement that we would not pass further powers from Westminster to Brussels, and that we would introduce the referendum lock so that any further transfer would be subject to referendum; and we also have the agreement that Britain is not intending to join the euro. In spite of the fact that we do not always agree on these European issues—and we are grown-up enough to make that point—I think it is a very strong coalition agreement, and one that all colleagues can support.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

When my right hon. Friend spoke to the Japanese Prime Minister on Friday, did he receive assurances from him that everything was being done to reopen Japanese factories that provide much-needed components to the British car industry?

[The Prime Minister]

I recognise the point that my hon. Friend makes, given his interest in the magnificent Honda plant in Swindon, which I had the great good fortune to visit. Indeed, although I am not allowed to drive it any more, I am the proud owner of a Honda made in Swindon. I know of the problem. I did not discuss it with the Japanese Prime Minister because we were talking about the absolutely urgent requirements for help for the Japanese now, but it will be key for the Japanese economy, and indeed for ours, to make sure that those trade links are opened up again as soon as possible.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Rather than bail-outs, will the Prime Minister consider putting it to the European Council that there is a better alternative, which is to get spending under control and get a really great Finance Minister like we have here?

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[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right. Everyone in Europe has the same challenge: how do we get on top of fiscal deficits and what are the decisions that we need to make in terms of spending reductions and other measures? Everyone in Europe is engaged in this, apart from the Labour party.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

It is not just tanks and planes that Gaddafi uses against his own people but the poisonous propaganda on Libyan state TV carried on NileSat, which threatens to undermine hopes for future peace in that country. What can be done to ensure that all Libyans, especially those in Tripoli, can access independent media on which to base their understanding of current events?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a vitally important point. We want to do everything we can to try to make sure that people can access independent media, which have had a huge impact on these events. But also, frankly, we should take a tougher approach to Libyan state television, which, as far as I can see, is actually working on behalf of the regime that is terrorising and brutalising its own civilians. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point that we should pursue urgently.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is aware of the relatively peaceful progress being made in the Kingdom of Morocco, in sharp contrast to the situation in much of the rest of region. Will he ensure that we give every encouragement to Morocco following the very positive speech by King Mohammed VI which outlined constitutional and judicial reform in his country?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The last European Council—there have been quite a lot of them—which was specifically about north Africa, the middle east and the events in Libya, mentioned the excellent speech by the king of Morocco specifically. At a time when many countries in the area are trying to reform, we should encourage those who are engaging in dialogue and reform, and not treat all these countries in the same way.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

The euro-plus pact, which was endorsed by the European Council and which I am pleased the UK has not joined, referred to a recently proposed directive on corporation tax, which would apply to the UK if it was adopted. Would the Prime Minister be prepared to veto that directive if it interfered with our tax sovereignty?

[The Prime Minister]

It is important that we maintain our tax sovereignty. That is one reason why I think it is right to stay out of the euro-plus pact. One of the terms of the euro-plus pact is to look at developing a common corporate tax base. If eurozone countries want to equalise their tax rates, that is a matter for them, but it is a folly in which I do not think we should engage.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister on extricating us from the eurozone bail-out mechanism by 2013. Given that Portugal, Spain and Greece are in financial trouble, most people will be concerned about what contingent liabilities we will be exposed to between now and then. What has my right hon. Friend done to assess those potential liabilities?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

We have assessed the liabilities. Debates have been held in this House and there is a great deal of information that I can make available to my hon. Friend. The matter is complicated because as well as the article 122 mechanism, which contains a limited amount of headroom, some of which has already been used up in the case of Ireland, another facility has been put in place that does not include the UK, which has considerably more headroom. Above and beyond that, we will have the future mechanism post-2013. If he likes, I can give him the full details on what all those things are and on the relatively limited liability that the UK has under article 122. As I have said, it is a liability that we wish we did not have.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Over the weekend, my wife was saying what a wonderful job the Prime Minister was doing over the EU bail-outs, and that he was turning into a Mrs Thatcher. She wondered if he could use his immense charm and ability to persuade the euro countries not to ask us to participate in any bail-out? Will the Prime Minister satisfy Mrs Bone?

[The Prime Minister]

I am fast coming to the view that Mrs Bone is quite literally insatiable. I will—[Laughter.] I will certainly do my best, but there are some things of which it is quite difficult to persuade one’s European colleagues. I take to heart the compliments that Mrs Bone paid in the early part of my hon. Friend’s question.

[Mr Speaker]

I feel rather left out not to have met Mrs Bone.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Will the Prime Minister confirm that France and the other allied countries will take part in military action only through the NATO command structure, and will not prosecute separate campaigns outside that structure?

[The Prime Minister]

That is the arrangement that has been put in place. Obviously, it is both NATO’s command and control structure and its machinery that everyone has agreed to use. The point that the French have made—I think that this is important—is that we should ensure that the world knows that this is not just a NATO operation, but that Arab countries are involved and that there is a broader coalition and alliance. Given that we have the NATO machinery, it makes sense to use it. I think that one should make those practical arguments, rather than getting too caught up in the theology.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s emphasis on deregulation and on strengthening the Single European Act. Does he agree that we should apply that logic to the whole of Europe to ensure that our businesses can operate untrammelled across Europe and that investment is able to flourish?

[The Prime Minister]

I do agree. As I said, completing the single market can sound rather technical and dull, but when one considers how much our economies are dominated by services—80% on average—and the fact that there are still so many abuses of the single market by services in so many countries, it is clear that there is a real opportunity to enlarge the whole EU economy if we take these steps.

[Mr Speaker]

I must thank the Prime Minister and colleagues for their succinctness. Everybody got in, and we did not even take up the hour that I had it in mind to allocate.