Leaving the EU

Robin Walker Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) on securing this debate and on his excellent speech. He said that he was a simple soul, but he went on to demonstrate a grip of the facts and an erudition that rather belied that comment. He did a good job of not only representing his constituents but sharing the benefit of his commercial and negotiating expertise, which we welcome.

After the Prime Minister’s speech and the Secretary of State’s statement yesterday, I agree with the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) that it is a good thing that we debate these matters and the process of exiting the European Union. This is not the first time that I have stood in this Chamber in a debate while another debate on this process is going on in the main Chamber. That demonstrates the degree of parliamentary attention and scrutiny that the process is receiving.

[Hannah Bardell]

On a point of clarification, I am pleased that we are now debating the detail, but I hope that the Minister shares the view—I am sure it is held by many people across the country—that it would have been great if we had had that detail in the run-up to the vote so that people had the full information about what this Tory Government are taking us into through this process.

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady expresses an opinion about the past and the arguments that we had during the referendum. I think it is important to focus on the future and the process.

In the time that I have, I will make some brief remarks about the Government’s key objectives. First, in answer to the direct question that my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey asked, I want to clarify that the Government are committed to respecting the will of the British people and delivering on the referendum result. That is why I welcome this debate and the opportunity to focus on the process and how we can get the best deal for the UK. As the Prime Minister has said, we will trigger article 50 and begin the process of leaving the EU by the end of March. That timetable has given us a bit of time to prepare the negotiating strategy and engage constructively with stakeholders. Yesterday’s announcements about our aims were informed by that consultation, which is ongoing.

We want a smooth departure from the EU and a new, positive, constructive and equal partnership for Britain and the EU—a partnership that will be good for Britain and good for the rest of Europe. That is why in her speech yesterday the Prime Minister set out a serious and ambitious vision of a new partnership with the EU for a global Britain, including a comprehensive plan covering our 12 negotiating objectives. I will not repeat them all, because all hon. Members will have followed that speech closely, but it is important that I reiterate their importance and, with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) in the room, say that one of the key principles is to maintain the common travel area with Ireland. In answer to the hon. Member for Livingston’s point—[Interruption.] I will not give way, because I have limited time to deliver quite a lot of detail, but in answer to one of the points that the Scottish National party has made regularly, the Prime Minister put an emphasis on protecting the rights of EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU.

To deliver those objectives, officials in my Department and Ministers have carried out a programme of sectoral regulatory analysis and engaged with every devolved Administration and regions across the whole UK to identify the key factors for businesses, communities and the labour force that will affect our negotiations. We are also building a detailed understanding of how withdrawing from the EU will affect our domestic policies to seize the opportunities and ensure a smooth exit process.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey said clearly, the way to start a negotiation is not to tell the people we are negotiating with exactly what we plan to do. Indeed, the House agreed without a Division on 12 October last year that nothing we do or say should undermine the UK’s negotiating position. That was supported by a majority of more than five to one in a Division on 7 December. I welcome the support of my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Strangford, and indeed that of the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook), who sits on the Opposition Front Bench, for the article 50 process. My hon. Friend is right that we must leave the EU in accordance with the process set out in article 50 of the treaty on European Union, which he read out. That is the only lawful route for withdrawal from the EU under the treaties.

We expect the process to follow three stages: notification, negotiation and conclusion. First, we will notify the European Council of our intention to leave the EU under article 50. The Prime Minister has been clear that we will trigger article 50 by the end of March, and the House backed that timetable by a large margin in December. Triggering article 50 is the first step in making the United Kingdom a fully independent, sovereign country, free to make our own decisions. Our position remains that triggering article 50 is a matter for the Government, but as the House knows, we await the Supreme Court’s judgment, which I note is expected to be handed down next Tuesday. I do not want to comment on possible scenarios until that judgment has been made, but let me be clear: whatever the outcome, the Government remain committed to triggering article 50 by the end of March.

Secondly, once article 50 has been triggered, we will then negotiate a withdrawal agreement with the EU. Article 50 makes it clear that there are two years to negotiate such a withdrawal agreement. The Prime Minister has been clear that by the time the two-year period ends we also aim to have reached an agreement about our future partnership. Article 50 itself, as my hon. Friend pointed out, talks about taking account of that relationship in the withdrawal agreement. From that point onwards, we believe a phased process of implementation in which Britain and the EU institutions and member states prepare for the new arrangements will exist between us.

The Government’s priority is to ensure that we get the best deal for the UK. The UK is leaving the EU, but we are not turning our backs on Europe. If we approach the negotiations in a constructive spirit, as we intend to, we can build a partnership for a strong UK and a strong EU. Although we are confident that a fair deal along these lines can be achieved, we are clear that, for the UK, no deal with the EU is better than a bad deal. My hon. Friend has made his support for that approach very clear.

Thirdly, the precise timing, terms and means by which we conclude the process will be determined by the negotiations. However, the Prime Minister has confirmed that the final deal that is agreed between the UK and the EU will be subject to a vote in both Houses of Parliament before it comes into force.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Will the Minister confirm that the vote that Parliament will have will be a take-it-or-leave-it vote, with “leave it” being the hardest possible exit on WTO default terms?

[Mr Walker]

The Prime Minister has made it clear that Parliament will have a vote. There will be plenty of opportunities during the process for Parliament to exert its views and to influence the process. I want to come on to some of those.

As I have already described, we have had a huge amount of parliamentary scrutiny. I do not have the time to run through all of it, but it is important to reiterate the commitment that the Secretary of State has made to keeping this Parliament at least as well informed as the European Parliament as negotiations progress. He has set out that he will provide as much information as possible, subject to that not undermining the national interest. It is clear that negotiations will be fast moving and will cover sensitive material, so we will need to find ways of engaging with Parliament throughout the process. We are working through the practicalities of that and will say more when the work is complete.

Parliament’s role will not be restricted to scrutiny and making recommendations. Leaving the EU will require legislation. In particular, the Government will be bringing forward legislation in the next Session that, when enacted, will repeal the European Communities Act 1972 and ensure a functioning statute book on the day that we leave the EU. In considering that great repeal Bill, Parliament will have a crucial role to play in determining the future legal framework of our country.

My hon. Friend made a very good point about the slang of Brexit and the fact that it should be “UKexit”, and the Prime Minister was very clear in her speech yesterday that we must deliver for the whole United Kingdom. The Government will continue to engage fully with the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive to get the best possible deal for all parts of our United Kingdom as we leave the EU. We will give the devolved Administrations every appropriate opportunity to have their say, and we will look at any suggestions that they put forward. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union confirmed yesterday, and as the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) said, the Joint Ministerial Committee will be discussing Scotland’s plans and proposals when it meets tomorrow.

The UK Government have made it clear that we intend to fully involve Gibraltar, Crown dependencies and overseas territories as we prepare for exit, to ensure that their interests are properly taken into account. As such, the first meeting of the UK-Gibraltar Ministerial Forum took place on 7 December. My very first debate in this Chamber was on Gibraltar. I have committed to quarterly meetings with the Chief Ministers of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, and we meet again next week. UK Ministers and leaders of the overseas territories have committed to taking forward future engagement through the creation of a new joint ministerial council. Having those processes in place will ensure that we take into account the views of all parts of the UK and the territories whose interests we represent in the negotiations to come.

It is clear from today’s debate that there remain a wide range of views about the Government’s plans for leaving the EU. However, the process for leaving the EU is clearly set out in article 50. The Government are determined to respect the will of the people by invoking article 50 and beginning the process by March, and we must do that in a way that delivers for 100% of the people of this United Kingdom.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the process for the UK to leave the EU.

Exiting the European Union

Robin Walker Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2017 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from the debate on Exiting the EU: Science and Research on 19 December 2016.

[Mr Robin Walker]

The Government have also reassured organisations that structural and investment fund projects signed before the UK withdraws from the EU will be guaranteed by the Treasury after we leave, up to 2020.—[Official Report, 19 December 2016, Vol. 618, c. 1280.]

Letter of correction from Mr Robin Walker:

An error has been identified in the speech I made in the debate on Exiting the EU: Science and Research on 19 December.

The correct statement should have been:

[Mr Robin Walker]

The Government have also reassured organisations that structural and investment fund projects signed before the UK withdraws from the EU will be guaranteed by the Treasury after we leave.

Exiting the EU: Scotland

Robin Walker Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) on securing this debate. It is a pleasure to return to Westminster Hall, which the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) suggested should be renamed “Brexit Minister Hall” because of the frequency of my visits. I commend him and his colleagues for their active role in supporting the Department’s debates.

Upon her appointment in July, the Prime Minister committed to full engagement with the devolved Administrations to get the best possible deal for all parts of the United Kingdom as we leave the EU. Following the referendum result, her very first visit was to Edinburgh to meet the First Minister of Scotland, followed quickly by trips to Cardiff and Belfast. Make no mistake: the United Kingdom voted on 23 June to leave the European Union, and we will leave the EU as one United Kingdom. I welcome the acceptance by the hon. Member for Glenrothes that a mandate has been given—at least in some parts of the country—for that process, but I noticed that in his avoidance of the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (William Wragg) he neglected to note that the 2 million people in Scotland who voted to stay in the UK in 2014 outnumber significantly those who voted to remain in the EU.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

It is great to see the Minister in his customary place; perhaps at the end of the Brexit negotiations his name will be chiselled on to the chair. Does he accept that, as the First Minister said, the United Kingdom that people in Scotland voted to remain part of in 2014 has “fundamentally changed”? That was the expression she used. There has been a fundamental change in circumstances, so we have the right to insist that the mandate in Scotland to remain in the EU is respected in the UK Government’s negotiating position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Walker]

I am always pleased to engage with the hon. Gentleman, but it is clear that the referendum was UK-wide. The decision was taken on a UK-wide basis and the negotiations will be conducted on a UK-wide basis. Nevertheless, we do, of course, have to accept the concerns and views of the Scottish people, to which I will come in greater detail.

As we prepare to leave, we stand by our commitment to engagement with the devolved Administrations, including the Scottish Government. The devolved Administrations are having and will have the opportunity to have their say as we form our negotiating strategy. The Prime Minister chaired a plenary meeting of the joint ministerial council in October, at which she discussed the process of preparing to leave the EU with the First Minister of Scotland, the First Minister of Wales, and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

We have created a new Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations), which brings together all the constituent parts of the United Kingdom to develop a UK-wide approach to our negotiations. The committee is chaired by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and has agreed to meet monthly as we seek to agree a UK-wide approach to negotiations, share evidence and take forward joint analysis. In our commitment to the JMC(EN) process, we have also agreed to work collaboratively, first, to discuss each Government’s requirements for the future relationship with the EU; secondly, to seek to agree a UK approach to, and objectives for, the article 50 negotiations; and thirdly, to provide oversight of negotiations with the EU, to ensure, as far as possible, that outcomes agreed by all four Governments are secured from the negotiations.

[Jim Shannon]

I should put on record the fact that although the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain, in my constituency the majority voted to leave. Nevertheless, throughout Northern Ireland many people who were in the remain camp now accept that the decision has been taken UK-wide, and as such they want to move forward. The issue today is not the decision that was taken on 23 June, but how we move forward for everyone, even those who were in a different camp, most of whom accept that we should move forward.

[Mr Walker]

I totally accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. Indeed, I was in a different camp during the referendum. I said at the end of last week’s debate that we all must now move forward to ensure that we make the process work not for 48% or 52%, but for 100%. The hon. Gentleman’s point was well made.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

The Minister mentioned the meetings of the committee that has been set up under the Secretary of State’s chairmanship. The Secretary of State agreed last week that a plan would be put to the House before article 50 is triggered—will that group meet before then, during the process, or what?

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his intervention. I assure him that the group will meet before that plan comes forward. As I said, monthly meetings of the group are already arranged, and there will be further meetings before the publication of the plan. It is important that the views of the JMC should be taken into account.

[Sammy Wilson]

Although there is going to be consultation through the JMC, will the Minister make it clear, now, that that does not mean that different regions of the United Kingdom can have a different relationship with the EU, either by volunteering for it or by having it forced on them?

[Mr Walker]

I absolutely accept the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s point; we need to conduct the negotiation for the whole United Kingdom. Nevertheless, it is important that we demonstrate that our door is open to the Scottish Government and all the other devolved Administrations.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already had a number of discussions with the Scottish Government’s Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland’s Place in Europe, Mr Russell. Indeed, I welcomed Mr Russell’s comments to the Scottish Affairs Committee on Wednesday 7 December, when he said: “The hotline is working”. I personally attended the recent meeting of the British-Irish Council in Cardiff, with the First Minister of Scotland and Minister Russell, and was pleased to have constructive discussions with that important forum. Such engagement at ministerial level is being complemented by a good deal of engagement at official level. We are holding detailed bilateral meetings with each of the devolved Administrations on key sectors that they identified as priorities, and UK Government Departments are continuing to engage with each of them on their key policy areas.

In preparing for this debate, I decided to revisit the views of the hon. Member for Glenrothes on EU policy. I was pleased to read that last November he said that

“the experts on matters such as fishing and agriculture are very often the people who work in those industries. If we do not listen to them from the very beginning of the process, we will get it wrong.”—[Official Report, 10 November 2015; Vol. 602, c. 79WH.]

I could not agree more. It is crucial that, as we prepare to leave the EU, we listen to voices from across the UK, and, indeed, from across Scotland. I have detailed some of our engagement with the Scottish Government, but that is only part of the picture.

[Peter Grant]

The Minister’s exact recollection of my words is better than my own, but I certainly will not disagree that that is what I have said. Given that we agree that the people who understand the fishing industry best are the people who work in the industry, with hindsight does he accept that a previous generation of Ministers treated the fishing industry very badly when they sold it out to Europe in return for benefits elsewhere?

[Mr Walker]

In this debate, we should focus on the future rather than debate the past, but I think we all accept that we are where we are today because mistakes have been made on Europe in the past.

On our engagement with Scotland and more widely, DExEU Ministers have met more than 130 companies from every sector of the British economy since July. That is one part of a whole of Government effort to speak to every sector and region of the British economy. Behind the scenes, officials across Whitehall are working together to ensure that businesses’ views reach the policy makers who are working to get the right deal for the UK. We have hosted round-tables with universities, energy companies, retailers, professional and business services providers, the financial sector, automotive companies, construction firms, oil and gas companies, farmers, fishermen, the food industry and businesses in regions throughout the UK. That is just the start of a national conversation that will continue as we leave the European Union.

We will continue to speak to businesses of all sizes and shapes, in every corner of the UK, including Scotland. We want to give small businesses the opportunity to have their say. The Prime Minister has held her first business summit with the Federation of Small Businesses, and we have been visiting chambers of commerce throughout the country and speaking to groups representing family businesses. Our Ministers have visited Wales, Northern Ireland and every region in England, and, of course, the Secretary of State went to Glasgow, where he visited the Tontine business centre and held a stakeholder round-table at the University of Strathclyde.

I was originally planning to visit Scotland this week, but the pressure of parliamentary business means that I now intend to travel to Scotland early next year, as does my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union. Incidentally, on my way here from the voting Lobby, I ran into my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Trade, who assured me that he is very much looking forward to a meeting with the Scotch Whisky Association to discuss some of the opportunities of this process. We will listen to stakeholders, including farmers, the fishing industry, and food and drink manufacturers, as well as the universities—including Scottish universities—representatives of some of which I met earlier today.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes touched on the future trading relationship with the EU. One of our first priorities is to allow UK companies to trade as freely as possible with the single market in goods and services—that is the very point he was making. We will work hard to get the best deal for the whole UK, and we are considering all factors carefully in implementing the referendum decision. We are, though, looking for a unique outcome, not an off-the-shelf solution. We are aiming for the right deal for the United Kingdom. As we conduct our negotiations, it is a priority to secure British companies’ trade with the single market in goods and services.

Indeed, we want the best possible arrangement for trade in goods and services with the EU. We are not seeking to replicate any other model; we want a bespoke approach that works for the whole of the UK, including Scotland. This objective is a priority that I believe businesses across the United Kingdom and across Scotland will share. A single UK position in relation to our future relationship with the EU is vital to protecting the UK’s interests as a whole.

For Scotland, exports to the rest of the UK are worth four times as much as those to the EU. This Government are determined to promote Scotland’s future, including through the extra £800 million of capital funding through Barnett consequentials, as a result of the autumn statement. If that funding is used properly by the Scottish Government, it will make a real difference to productivity, jobs and growth, so that the Scottish economy can perform even more strongly in the future.

I note that the hon. Member for Glenrothes and some of his hon. Friends have touched on a role for the Scottish Government in the negotiations themselves. We have made no decisions yet about the format of the direct negotiations with the European Union. Of course, it will be for the Prime Minister to ensure that we negotiate the best possible future for the United Kingdom, and our Department is there to support her, representing the interests of all the UK’s constituent parts. However, it is very clear that in each of the three devolution settlements, the conduct of international relations is a matter that is expressly reserved. In the Scotland settlement,

“international relations....including relations with the European Union”

is a reserved matter. That does not diminish our commitment to engaging the Scottish Government. I say again that the JMC(EN) has an important and enduring role in overseeing these negotiations as they take place.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about Scotland’s position on free movement and I know that in the past he has raised the issue of EU citizens living in the UK. Let me repeat what I have said many times on that: I want and the Government want to ensure the rights of EU citizens living in the UK. We need to do that through negotiation and through a reciprocal agreement that also secures the rights of UK citizens, including many Scottish citizens, living in the European Union. It is absolutely vital that we do that at the earliest possible opportunity, and I hope that we will be able to bring news on that front early in the negotiation process after article 50.

Although it is a priority to do that, obviously it must be done through negotiations. Doing otherwise would risk adversely affecting our negotiating position and hence the position of British citizens, including many from Scotland, who have chosen to build a life with their families in other countries.

This is a very important issue and an important debate, and I welcome the discussion that we have had today. The hon. Gentleman is clear that Scotland’s voice will be heard in this process and so am I. We have established good processes for engaging with the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations through the JMC forums. As we have seen today, Scottish MPs are playing a full and active part in the parliamentary scrutiny that is ongoing in this United Kingdom House of Commons. As the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) pointed out, MPs from across the United Kingdom have that opportunity and are taking it.

We are ensuring that channels exist for official-level discussions on the detail and seeking to build a common evidence base. We stand ready to talk to the Scottish Government at any time. I know that we have heard much talk of plans lately in this House, as per the debate last week, and we will set out more of the detail for the UK plan ahead of the notification of article 50 before the end of March 2017.

We will leave the EU as one United Kingdom, but in doing so it is vital that Scotland’s interests are understood and that the voices of the people, businesses and other groups in Scotland are heard.

Question put and agreed to.

The Government's Plan for Brexit

Robin Walker Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman). I thank Members who have contributed to this excellent debate on what the motion rightly describes as the defining issue facing the United Kingdom. There have been many excellent contributions on both sides. Time will not allow me to congratulate all those who have spoken, but I should say that, as a new Minister, to follow the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) and the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) is a privilege in any debate, but especially in a debate in which it was revealed that my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) voted to join the European Community in 1975.

Hon. Members on both sides of the House have raised important and pressing issues. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) and my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) called for pace, but the Government are getting on with the job of delivering on the mandate given by the British people. We are taking our time to get the detail right. As many Members have remarked, this is not necessarily a simple or straightforward set of decisions. Getting our approach right first time is vital to our long-term national interest. As the right hon. Member for Leeds Central and my right hon. Friends the Members for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) and for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) said, we should show respect for the enormity of this issue and its impact on all our constituents.

Members have shown that they share our concern that we prepare properly and focus on the details. Following the referendum, we are moving on from 40 years of EU membership. Carrying out this process properly and effectively is a complex challenge with a wide range of potential outcomes. That is why we are taking our time to inform and develop our negotiating strategy.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out before the House four aims: first, listening to all sides in the debate, so that we can build a national consensus around our position and get the best deal for the UK; secondly, putting the national interest first and listening carefully to all the devolved Administrations; thirdly, taking steps to minimise uncertainty wherever possible, which is why we are bringing forward a great repeal Bill to bring existing EU law into domestic law on the day we leave, and empowering Parliament to make the changes necessary to ensure our law operates effectively at the domestic level; and, finally, putting the sovereignty and supremacy of this Parliament beyond doubt by the time we end this process and have left the European Union.

My right hon. Friend has also been clear about our broad strategic aims for the negotiations: securing the best available access for our businesses, so that they can trade and operate within the single market, while taking back control of our borders, our laws and our money. I hear calls from both sides of the House—and indeed both sides of the referendum debate—for the rights of EU citizens in the UK to be guaranteed, and it is certainly the Government’s intention to do so, alongside securing the rights of UK citizens living in the EU.

In preparation for the negotiations, we are undertaking a wide-ranging programme of sectoral and regulatory analysis, talking to businesses and civil society about the options for leaving the EU and the impact on their parts of the economy. On Monday, my right hon. Friend joined the Chancellor to meet organisations in the City. From aerospace to the environment, energy to retail, farming to chemicals, tourism to automotive, fishing to fintech, and universities to ports, we have been listening to people’s concerns and seeking out opportunities for UK industries.

From the start, the Prime Minister has been committed to full engagement with the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I commend the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) for his powerful speech on the importance of finding a UK approach and of listening to the concerns of the devolved Administrations. I undertake to do that. Others, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), mentioned the Crown dependencies. I can assure them that a great deal of engagement is going on with the Crown dependencies, as it is with Gibraltar. I met representatives of the Government of Gibraltar today to make sure we were taking their concerns on board in our preparations for this process.

The motion passed by the House on 12 October made it clear that, while parliamentary scrutiny was an essential pillar in the process of our withdrawal, it should be carried out in a way that respected the will of the people and did not restrict the Government’s negotiating capability. Parliamentary scrutiny is invaluable, and it is important that our approach is scrutinised by the expertise of both Houses of Parliament, but that cannot be, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) pointed out so clearly, at the expense of binding the Government’s hands in negotiations. It is entirely proper that Parliament should scrutinise the Government’s approach to the process of leaving the EU, and that there be a full and continuing debate, both on the Floor of the House and in the new Select Committee on Exiting the European Union, chaired by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be attending next week.

Many hon. Members, including those the Opposition Benches—notably the right hon. Members for Doncaster North and for Doncaster Central (Dame Rosie Winterton)—have recognised that it is beyond doubt that the Government have received clear instructions from the British people that Britain should leave the EU. We are now discussing the right and proper process for withdrawal, and today’s debate will take that process one step further. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has committed to being as open as possible with Parliament, and we remain committed to providing the House with regular updates on our plans to deliver on the clear mandate given by the British people to leave.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Walker]

I will not give way, I am afraid.

That brings me to the heart of the motion, which calls on the Prime Minister to commit to publishing the Government’s plan for leaving the EU before article 50 is invoked. This country stands on the threshold of a new chapter in its history. In forging a new relationship with our neighbours in Europe, we must deliver a global Britain that can continue to be a global success, as my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) suggested. The Secretary of State has said he will set out our broad plans for doing so ahead of the notification to invoke article 50, but we must do so in a way that safeguards the vital national interest by securing the Government’s negotiating position.

The Government amendment is entirely proper and I commend it to the House. I welcome the fact that Her Majesty’s Opposition appear to accept the amendment, although I note that their Back Benchers seem to disagree. Like many on both sides of the House, I fought the referendum campaign as a remainer, but I always believed that it was right to trust the people with this decision and that their view had to be respected. I saw this fundamentally as a question of consent, and although I personally argued that my constituency might have an easier path to travel if we stayed in and fought our corner, I also said from the start that if the consent of the British people was withheld, we would all need to work harder than ever before to ensure we made a success of leaving the EU.

That is where we now stand. After the arguments and the division of the referendum, now is the time for people to come together and work together to ensure that the UK succeeds. By supporting the Government amendment, colleagues from across the House can show that they have heard the will of the people and that we will work together to make a success of it. We can move forward with the process of making this work not just for 48% or 52%, but for 100% of the people we represent.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robin Walker Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Tania Mathias (Twickenham) (Con)]

19. What steps he is taking to negotiate the UK’s continued participation in European science and research programmes after the UK has withdrawn from the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

The Department has a wide programme of engagements to ensure that the views of the science and technology sector are heard. For example, we have recently met representatives of the life sciences and tech sectors, and will continue to meet them in the coming months. While it is too early to speculate on our future relationship with EU science and research programmes, as part of our commitment to make Britain the global go-to nation for scientists, innovators and tech investors, we will be investing an extra £2 billion in research and development by the end of this Parliament.

[Lucy Frazer]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The life sciences and pharma sectors are concerned that they need globally recognised and equivalent regulations to compete internationally. Can the Minister assure me that he will continue to work closely with these sectors to ensure they have the best possible opportunities in the Brexit negotiations?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. and learned Friend is right, and the Government are committed to ensuring a positive outcome for the UK’s life sciences and the pharmaceuticals sector as we exit the European Union. We have welcomed many hundreds of millions of pounds of new investment from Alnylam and GSK, and I can assure her that Ministers in our Department are engaging, and will continue to engage, with the pharma and life sciences industry to ensure that we take the opportunities as well as meet the challenges ahead.

[Mrs Gillan]

In Europe’s largest space innovation competition this year, the UK took the top prize and four major awards. We have been one of the leaders in, and most successful exploiters of, space technology, and it is vital that this support continues. In particular, can the Minister confirm that the European Space Agency is entirely independent and not an EU organisation, and that our membership of and participation in ESA will continue, as will the UK’s involvement in space research?

[Mr Walker]

Absolutely. The UK space industry, in which I understand my right hon. Friend’s husband has played an important part, is a global success story, leveraging our best talent to deliver highly innovative products and services every year. We want a UK space industry that captures 10% of the global market by 2030, creating 100,000 new jobs. The UK will remain a member of the ESA, which is not a part of the EU. The ESA’s next ministerial council is being held in Lucerne today, attended by my hon. Friend the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation.

[Dr Mathias]

May I thank the Minister for taking time last week to meet me and science and engineering companies from my constituency? Will he heed the calls made at that meeting, specifically to continue the easy and free movement of scientists across Europe and to maintain our participation in European projects?

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for arranging that very useful meeting. I will repeat what the Secretary of State has said before:

“We will always welcome those with the skills, the drive and the expertise to make our nation better still…Britain has always been one of the most tolerant and welcoming places on the face of the earth. It must and it will remain so.”

We are a global leader in scientific collaboration, and we want that to continue.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

Is it the Government’s policy to exit the European Medicines Agency at the same time as we exit the EU?

[Mr Walker]

The Government are committed to ensuring a positive outcome for life sciences and pharma as we exit the European Union. The Prime Minister has already outlined steps to make sure that we continue to back research and development. No decisions have yet been taken as to the final location of the European Medicines Agency.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

T.G. Eakin, which is located in my constituency, is a successful business that supplies medical equipment throughout the world. It is imperative that such businesses are kept informed of progress. Will the Minister outline how his Department will achieve that?

[Mr Walker]

We continue to engage very closely with businesses across sectors and across the whole of the UK. We have already had a number of engagements in Northern Ireland, and there will be many more to come.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

The absence of a Government plan for the science and technology sector is causing huge uncertainty. The Minister will be aware that the current funding arrangements for the ITER project, which includes a JET—Joint European Torus—centre for fusion energy in the UK, run out in 2018. If he can say nothing else about the Government’s plan, will he confirm that the UK will seek to maintain full participation in the Euratom programme?

[Mr Walker]

I think that the hon. Gentleman’s question is better directed to Ministers at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but I am sure that that is something on which we will work closely with them.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

10. Whether the Government plan to seek a transitional deal with the EU as part of their strategy for the UK exiting the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)]

18. What plans he has to consult representatives of the higher education sector as part of his Department's preparations for the UK exiting the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

My ministerial colleagues and I have met a number of higher education institutions and groups, including Universities UK, the royal academies, the Russell Group and the Universities of Swansea, Reading, Ulster and Strathclyde. The sector strongly supports our ambition to create an environment in which the UK as a whole can continue to be a world leader in research, science and the tertiary education sector.

[Gavin Newlands]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The University of the West of Scotland provides a high-quality and accessible education, and the university’s 112 staff from the EU are absolutely critical in delivering that. Can the Minister guarantee EU staff working across higher education and further education the right to remain without any visa conditions when the UK leaves the EU?

[Mr Walker]

We value highly the contribution of EU and international researchers and academic staff. We remain fully open to scientists and researchers from across the EU, and we will always welcome those with the skills, drive and expertise to make our nation better still. Regarding those who are already in the UK, we have been clear that there has been no change to the rights and status of EU nationals in the UK as a result of the referendum.

[Chris Elmore]

In 2014-15, there were 43,000 EU staff in the UK higher education sector. Those people are making decisions now about their future. When will the Government give them certainty, and what is in the Government’s plan for Brexit to ensure that our universities can benefit from the contribution of those staff members once we have left the EU?

[Mr Walker]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I have just given. I think we have been very clear that we want to continue to attract the top talent and that we want the UK to remain a leader in research, which means attracting people from the EU and from around the wider world.

[Jeff Smith]

The Erasmus exchange programme has enabled 200,000 UK students and 20,000 staff to spend time abroad. That enhances their employability, improves their knowledge and promotes understanding between cultures. What is the plan to ensure that that kind of valuable exchange can continue in future?

[Mr Walker]

There is no change for those who are currently participating in, or about to start, Erasmus+. Erasmus+ offers a range of programmes to countries across Europe and beyond. Post-exit access to Erasmus+ will be a matter for the negotiations that will follow the triggering of article 50. The Erasmus+ programme has proved to be a valuable tool that helps organisations and citizens to achieve their potential through international education, training and collaborative opportunities. As part of our vision for the UK as a global nation, I am sure we will want to look at how such an approach can be perpetuated in the future.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

The Secretary of State was absolutely right to say earlier that we only get one chance at this, so the Prime Minister is absolutely right to make sure that we have listened to all the representations, including those from universities, before invoking article 50. Does he agree that it is far preferable to have a full, hearty Brexit than a rushed, messy, unsatisfactory dog’s breakfast?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it is important that we listen to and take on board the evidence from the university sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

T3. The tourism industry sustains 3 million jobs in the UK. Brexit presents the sector with many opportunities and challenges. How is the Department engaging with the tourism industry?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

The Government fully recognise the contribution that tourism makes to our economy and communities in all parts of the UK. Foreign visitors contribute £22 billion to our economy. There were record numbers of overseas visitors each month from July to September—10.7 million in total. I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour for hosting a roundtable with some of the key players in the hospitality sector, which I attended last week shortly after attending the Tourism Industry Council. As the Prime Minister has said, we are confident that our exit represents opportunities for growth in tourism, and we will work closely with the industry to achieve them.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

T6. In evidence to the Environmental Audit Committee, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs revealed that between a quarter and a third of the UK’s environmental legislation that comes from the EU will not be neatly transposed through the great repeal Bill. Will the Secretary of State tell the House whether legislation to protect our air and improve our water quality, and to set waste and chemical standards for products going into the EU, will be part of the great repeal Bill, or will we have to wait for legislation after we leave?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

Major pharmaceutical investors, such as Eli Lilly in my constituency, use a common EU system for medicine regulation in clinical trials to help British patients to gain access to the best treatments in the world. What work is the Minister doing to ensure that the decades-long co-operation with the EU is maintained after Brexit not just for the benefit of companies but for the benefit of patients?

[Mr Robin Walker]

I assure my right hon. Friend that we will be looking very carefully at that. As I said earlier, no decisions have yet been made about the future location of the European Medicines Agency. Until we have left the EU, the UK remains a member with all the rights and obligations that membership entails. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency continues to play a full role in all procedures of the EU medical device regulatory framework.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

What priority has the ministerial team given to achieving continued tariff-free access and continued membership of the single market?

--- Later in debate ---

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

Since 2014, Scottish small and medium-sized enterprises have received over €21 million in funding through Horizon 2020. What assurances can the Minister give that firms will be eligible for equivalent funding before and after 2020?

[Mr Robin Walker]

As the hon. Lady knows, the Treasury has already given strong assurances up to 2020, beyond the period of our exiting the EU. That is an important signal to SMEs, universities and others that they should continue bidding for the scheme. The current EU budget and the framework for Horizon 2020 runs only up to 2020.

[Mr Speaker]

On the principle of humanitarian assistance to the involuntarily delayed, I call Mr Henry Smith.

EU Customs Union

Robin Walker Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) on securing this debate. My constituents, like hers, voted to leave the European Union, so I welcome her comments about listening to that vote. It is also important that we all work together to make this process a success, so I welcome her analysis.

Last week, she posed a question along similar lines to the Prime Minister about the EU customs union and Nissan. I am delighted that since that question was posed, Nissan has announced that it will produce the Qashqai and a new model at its plant in Sunderland. The hon. Lady welcomed that, and so will I. I want to join the chorus of approval that we heard in this place for that decision. It is a vote of confidence, which shows that Britain is open for business and that we remain an outward-looking, world-leading nation. The plant in Sunderland will be expanded through new investment to be a super-plant, manufacturing more than 600,000 cars a year. Some 80% of the plant’s output is exported to more than 130 international markets. The decision is a massive win for the 7,000 direct employees and 35,000 total British employees in the plant and the supply chain.

Turning to the core subject of this debate, the issue of the customs union is an important one. As with all facets of our exit negotiations, we recognise the need for a careful—what the hon. Lady called a “hard-headed”—analysis for a smooth transition that will minimise disruption to our trading relationships and seize the opportunities presented. This is an area in which there is excellent cross-Government co-operation, and I am pleased to be joined on the Treasury Bench this evening by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison). That shows how the Department for Exiting the European Union and the Treasury are working hand in hand on these issues.

I would like to be clear from the outset that—as, I think, we are all aware—no final decision has been taken on our broader future economic relationship with the EU, which includes our approach to the customs union. As with our decision not to trigger article 50 immediately, it is right that we take the time, as the hon. Lady said, to analyse our options carefully and seek to secure the best deal for the whole of the UK.

[Richard Fuller]

Can the Minister help me with the question I posed to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman)? The ballot paper said that we are either leaving the European Union or remaining in it, and we voted to leave. We joined the customs union in 1973. Is not the presumption and the starting position for the Government the fact that we will leave the customs union, so arguments have to be made why we should not do that rather than accepting that that should be regarded as the opening position?

[Mr Walker]

I think it important to engage with arguments on both sides of this debate. The key thing is to secure the UK national interest, so before we take a decision, we will want to listen very carefully to the arguments for leaving the customs union and the arguments for staying in it.

I think we can all agree that the issue has numerous aspects. The hon. Lady speaks with considerable experience of complex economic issues, having been a Treasury fast-streamer serving on the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury Committee, and a former Minister. She will appreciate that, as the Prime Minister said in her reply the other day, making a full assessment of the options of a customs union is more complex than it might seem when first described to the public.

First, it is important to understand exactly what a customs union is and is not. It is an arrangement that relates to trade in goods; it does not cover trade in services or free movement of capital or people. To facilitate trade, a customs union removes tariffs and customs controls on goods moving between its members. While services are not directly included— they are not subject to either tariffs or customs controls—they have become increasingly embedded in goods production, so a customs union could indirectly affect trade in services industries. For example, in parallel to exporting an aircraft engine, an engineering firm might also provide maintenance services; or in parallel to exporting cars, an automotive firm might provide financial services.

To function properly, a customs union must have a common external tariff, applied equally by all members of the union. That supports the free circulation of goods within the customs union, preventing trade diversion by ensuring that no one trading with the members of the union can be given preferential access to any individual members relative to the others. In the case of the European Union, in practice, we have chosen to make a reality of the common external tariff through the common commercial policy under which the European Commission negotiates on trade on the United Kingdom’s behalf, and in that way sets the common external tariff. In the case of members of the EU and the EU’s customs union, 80% of the tariffs that are collected by member states on imports from non-EU countries are paid into the EU budget, with member states retaining just the remaining 20% to cover collection costs. The UK collected £3.1 billion in tariffs on non-EU imports in the financial year 2015-16.

However, a customs union is only one of the many ways in which countries have sought to minimise the impact of customs procedures and support the free flow of goods. There are numerous examples around the world in which co-operation between customs authorities has helped to reduce the costs of customs processes at the border, short of a customs union. Even in the case of the European Union, the customs union is only part of an approach that also focuses on strengthening systems and processes on the ground. For example, the vast majority of customs declarations in the UK are submitted electronically and cleared rapidly, with only a small proportion experiencing delays—for example, when risk assessment indicates that compliance or enforcement checks are required at the border.

Norway has been involved in customs co-operation with Sweden and Finland, both of which are EU member states and are therefore in the EU customs union, as they have been since the 1960s. Norway has an agreement with the EU to mutually recognise each other’s schemes to impose less onerous checks on exporting firms with secure supply chains. It sits, as an observer, on some of the EU’s committees that discuss customs issues. Notwithstanding the issues raised by the hon. Lady, and although our Prime Minister has made it clear that we are seeking not an off-the-shelf solution but a UK solution, it is important to note the collaborative agreements that exist in other countries. Switzerland and the EU have an agreement that recognises the equivalence of security checks at their external borders, and waives the need to make pre-departure and pre-arrival declarations. If we look more widely, we see that the United States and Canada also co-operate closely on customs issues, including schemes to expedite customs procedures for firms with secure supply chains and collaborative arrangements for operations at the border.

[Helen Goodman]

I am listening with interest to what the Minister is saying, but according to my constituents, who do a great deal of exporting, exporting to Switzerland is a nightmare by comparison with exporting to the EU, because of all the bureaucracy. Does the Minister not agree that the UK is in a different position from Norway? Its major export is oil, and exporting oil is incredibly simple, but, as I said earlier, most of the goods that we export are manufactured goods, which have complex supply chains.

[Mr Walker]

That is a fair point. I shall say something about our engagement with some of those industries and the importance of supply chains later in my speech. It is worth noting, however, that many countries also have authorised economic operator schemes, which means that exporters with supply chains that are demonstrably secure are subject to fewer and less stringent checks. The EU has such arrangements with China, Japan, Norway, Switzerland and the United States, through which both sides recognise each other’s authorised economic operators for customs purposes.

Turkey, which the hon. Lady mentioned, is one country outside the EU that has a customs union arrangement with it. That arrangement covers most but not all goods. Raw agricultural produce, for instance, is excluded. The EU and Turkey have been preparing to update the terms of their current customs union arrangements, which were always meant to be transitional, given that Turkey has applied to be a full member of the EU. I could go on, as there is a multiplicity of examples, but the point is that any decision about membership or otherwise is complex, and must take account of the full spectrum of options.

During last week’s debate, the Prime Minister also said that the way in which one dealt with the customs union did not involve a binary choice. There are different aspects to a customs union, which is precisely why it is important to look at the detail, to carry out the hard analysis that the hon. Lady called for, and to get the answer right. We have made it clear that we will pursue what works for the unique circumstances of the United Kingdom, and we continue to analyse thoroughly what it might look like in order to ensure that we make the best choice for the UK. That includes the broad-based analysis of more than 50 sectors that my Department is undertaking in relation to the impact of the UK’s leaving the EU.

As with the broader UK-EU negotiations, we recognise the need for a smooth transition that minimises disruption to our trading relationships and seizes the opportunities that are presented. The issue of a customs union has also been part of the Government’s programme of stakeholder engagement. We have been discussing this matter with numerous companies, organisations and trade bodies, including the chemicals sector, car manufacturers, and the agriculture and food and drink sector. We want to ensure that their views are reflected in our approach. The Prime Minister has been very clear that the intention of the Government is to ensure a competitive market so that people are able to prosper here in the United Kingdom and add to our economic growth.

We are also aware of the specific circumstances faced by businesses in Northern Ireland, which I know the hon. Lady could have touched on if she had not taken the interventions. We had a common travel area between the UK and the Republic of Ireland many years before either country was a member of the European Union. Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past. I underline the will and commitment of ourselves, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to support the common travel area and to ensure that there are no hard borders. We must now work closely together to ensure that as the UK leaves the EU we find shared solutions to the challenges and maximise the opportunities for both the UK and the Republic of Ireland, which I expect will continue to be a close friend of the UK in years to come.

[Helen Goodman]

I am slightly nervous that the Minister might sit down before I ask him another question. He said his Department is looking at 50 sectors. My basic request tonight is that we should have more information and facts from the Department, so will he make a start by telling us which 50 sectors and how large they are, how much they export and how many people are employed in them?

[Mr Walker]

In the six minutes I have left, it would be a challenge to run through each of those 50 sectors, but we will certainly disclose that information in due course. It is important to emphasise this is a whole-Government effort. Our Department is engaging with those sectors and conducting the analysis and drawing it all together, but we are also working closely with colleagues at the Treasury, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and all the other relevant Departments to each sector of the economy, because it is important we get this right and there is a role for every part of Government in informing that process.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am slightly confused about one point. I welcome the announcement about the common travel area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, but will that not mean there is an open border between the EU and the British state?

[Mr Walker]

I think both the Republic of Ireland in its communications with the EU and we in ours are very clear about the value we place on that common travel area, which existed long before the membership of the two countries to the EU. We have been clear in saying this is not necessarily a completely easy issue; it is an issue that will require some work, but we are determined to do that work and make sure we can make this work. I hope that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.

We must also consider carefully the position of the Crown dependencies and the UK’s overseas territories. Just today, I have met in a joint ministerial council with the overseas territories and the chief Ministers of the Crown dependencies to hear their views. There are some interesting examples. Gibraltar, for instance, has benefited from the UK’s membership of the EU but has not been part of the customs union to date.

I welcome this debate as part of the scrutiny of the Government’s position by this House. That is an important process and the information the hon. Lady and others have brought forward can certainly be taken into account as part of our analysis. I also look forward to Monday’s debate on exiting the EU and workers’ rights. That is an important aspect of our policy, and the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union has been very clear about our determination to protect workers’ rights. That debate will be another opportunity for the House to discuss the important issues in relation to our exit from the European Union.

In summary, the Government fully recognise the importance of the question of a customs union with the EU in the context of our future relationship. It is a complex, multi-faceted issue, and we are analysing carefully all the options available to us with the aim of securing the best outcome for the UK as a whole.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robin Walker Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

13. Whether it is his policy to allow EU nationals living in the UK to remain after the UK leaves the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) on his election as Chair of the Science and Technology Committee.

We had a very good debate on this matter yesterday and it was clear that Members on both sides of the House wanted to provide reassurance. The Government fully intend to protect the status of EU nationals already living here and the Prime Minister has been clear on that point. We expect UK citizens’ rights in other EU member states to be protected in return. I find it hard to imagine a scenario where, in negotiations, that is not the outcome. At every step of the negotiations, we will seek to ensure the best possible outcomes for the British people at home and overseas.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

To follow on from the question asked by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer), the Government have made clear their desire to control the borders and the fact that free movement cannot continue as it is now. However, will my hon. Friend reiterate that a degree of free movement will be necessary to protect key areas of our economy such as science and technology, and in particular research collaboration?

[Mr Walker]

I absolutely recognise my hon. Friend’s point and the need to strike that balance. As the Secretary of State said in his conference speech, to which he has already referred, pulling out of the European Union does not mean pulling up the drawbridge. He said:

“We will always welcome those with the skills, the drive and the expertise to make our nation better still. If we are to win in the global marketplace, we must win the global battle for talent. Britain has always been one of the most tolerant and welcoming places on the face of the earth. It must and it will remain so.”

This is particularly true in areas such as science and technology. The UK is a science superpower and we intend to make sure it stays that way.

[Mike Wood]

As well as ensuring that British pensioners living in other EU countries retain the right to remain in those countries, will the Government make sure that their pensions are protected under their current terms?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. Clearly, this is something that we will want to secure in the negotiations. We are working on the basis that what is fair to UK citizens in the EU should also be fair to EU citizens in the UK. We will certainly be looking to protect the interests of British pensioners as we go through this process.

[Peter Grant]

The most recent census indicates that 1,588 of my constituents were born in other EU countries. From personal experience, I know that they include doctors, dentists, teachers, nurses, home care workers, residential care workers, pupil support assistants and many more. Why are the Government already able to give unilateral guarantees about the remaining rights of bankers but unable to give the same guarantees to my constituents?

[Mr Walker]

We are clear that it is important to secure the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. We will seek to do so through the negotiations.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

The Minister is seeking to brush away concerns about this issue. Last month, the British Chambers of Commerce reported that 41% of companies said that their staff had expressed uncertainty about their future. Across the country, EU staff in our universities, who make up 15% of academics and contribute hugely to our research, are reconsidering their position. NHS England’s chief executive is so concerned that he has called for early reassurance about the future of EU workers. Will the Government simply resolve this uncertainty by committing to implement the decision of this House on 6 July and acting with urgency to give EU nationals currently living in the UK the right to remain?

[Mr Walker]

As I said in yesterday’s debate, the Government recognise the enormous contribution that EU citizens make to our health service, our universities and business. We want to ensure that their rights are protected, but we need to do so through the process of negotiation and agreement.

[Alex Salmond (Gordon) (SNP)]

Will the Minister now answer the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant)? Why was the Chancellor yesterday, in front of the Treasury Committee, able to give an unambiguous guarantee about the travel and residential rights of bankers that he is not prepared to give to our hard-working fellow European citizens?

[Mr Walker]

When the right hon. Gentleman intervened on me in yesterday’s debate, I had a sneaking suspicion that he might be, perhaps inadvertently, misrepresenting the comments of the Chancellor to the Select Committee. Having read the transcript, it is clear that the Chancellor was making it clear that his role was to advocate on this in the policy discussions to come with the Home Office and other Departments. He was not doing as the right hon. Gentleman says.

[John Nicolson (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

6. If he will devolve control over immigration to the Scottish Government as part of his negotiations on the UK leaving the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

7. What discussions he has had with the Mayor of London on protecting London's interests during negotiations on the UK leaving the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

London is a great global city and we expect it to continue to be so. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will join me in welcoming the record-breaking jobs figures for London that were published yesterday—I think they show the lowest rate of unemployment in London in our lifetime. The Secretary of State has already met the Mayor of London and we expect to hold meetings with regions across the UK to ensure that their views are taken into account.

[Wes Streeting]

I am sure the Minister welcomes the LondonIsOpen campaign led by the Mayor of London, so will he give a commitment today that he will look with an open mind at the case being developed by London’s business community for a work permit system for London that would enable us to continue to recruit the best and the brightest talent from around the world?

[Mr Walker]

The precise way in which the Government will control the movement to the UK of EU nationals and people from around the world is something that we will be working on with the Home Office. We will certainly take into account representations from London and other devolved areas, but we clearly need to come up with a policy that works for the whole of the UK.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

I am holding a Brexit forum next month with local businesses in my constituency involving interests ranging from information technology to the creative industries, retail and property. What is the Minister’s advice to those local businesses about engaging with Brexit? Is it to embrace the challenges and opportunities presented, or is it to follow the lead of the Opposition that is full of pessimism and denial?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to make sure that we embrace the full range of challenges and opportunities in the Brexit process, and we need to engage with business through that process. It is excellent that my hon. Friend is holding a forum and it is good that he is listening to businesses in his constituency. That is certainly something that we as the Department will be doing all around the country.

[Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

The Government’s shocking record on tackling air pollution is well documented, with almost 10,000 associated deaths in London in just one year. Given that the Government regularly flout EU regulations on air pollution even now, what assurance can the Minister give me that once we exit the European Union, they will not simply abandon all legal protection on air pollution in the capital and, indeed, in the country more widely?

[Mr Walker]

The Government are firmly committed to improving the UK’s air quality and cutting harmful emissions. That is why we have committed more than £2 billion since 2011 to increase the uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles, to support greener transport schemes and to set out a national plan to tackle pollution in our towns and cities.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

I have visited the Institute of Cancer Research. It wants to develop a London cancer hub, which I hope the Government will support, and, if that development happens, it expects to be able to develop two new cancer drugs in five years. One of its concerns is that 30% of its postgraduates come from the European Union. What guarantees can the Minister give that these essential London workers will be able to continue in post, and indeed that the institute will be able to recruit from the EU in the future?

[Mr Walker]

I refer the right hon. Gentleman to my earlier answer to the Chair of the Science and Technology Committee. We want to continue to attract the brightest and the best, and we will certainly make sure—I have already engaged with cancer charities and a wide range of voluntary organisations—that we take concerns into account as we have conversations with the Home Office and other Departments about the UK’s future immigration policy.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

8. If he will take steps during negotiations on the UK leaving the EU to ensure continued access to the EU single market for goods, people and services.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

The UK has been a leading player on environmental policy, setting the international agenda on climate change, as demonstrated by the Prime Minister’s commitment to ratify the Paris agreement as soon as possible. As recently announced, Britain will take back control of its laws through the great repeal Bill. Any changes to our environmental regulations after that time will be for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and this House to decide. The UK will continue to be a leader on international environmental co-operation.

[Neil Parish]

The European directive on bathing water has actually been part of a very good environmental law—water companies have cleaned up our beaches throughout the country, including the south-west—so can we rest assured that we will not row back on environmental laws that are good? Not all environmental laws from Europe are bad.

[Mr Walker]

I can see my hon. Friend’s point that it is in the UK’s interest to ensure that we have the cleanest possible bathing water. That issue will be something for future debates perhaps with DEFRA, but we will ensure that we maintain at least the standards that we have maintained in the past. I remind him of our manifesto commitment to be the first generation to leave the environment in a better state than we inherited.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Minister not aware that on environmental issues—waste, water and energy—we have such close relationships throughout Europe and we are very dependent on the high level of its technology and co-operation with us? Many people in that sector have read Matthew Parris’s article describing Brexit as the worst decision this country has made since Suez. Does the Minister agree with that view?

[Mr Walker]

I do not think now is the time to refight the referendum, on which the hon. Gentleman and I may have been on the same side, but it will be absolutely in our interest to co-operate with our neighbours on matters of the environment that affect us all.

[Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

20. Among those who will be most affected by changes to environmental regulations will be the agriculture community. Is my hon. Friend aware of the significant concern among that community at the prospect of leaving the single market, with issues affecting welfare and the environment as well as tariffs? Can he assure the House that agriculture will not be used as a makeweight in the negotiations with other interests and that there will be close co-operation with DEFRA colleagues in relation to that?

[Mr Walker]

Absolutely. I can assure my right hon. Friend that there is close co-operation between my Department and DEFRA and indeed there have been a number of productive meetings between Ministers in our Department and agricultural interests, including the National Farmers Union and agri-business representatives from the whole of the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

15. Whether he has met representatives of Scotland's universities to discuss the implications of the UK leaving the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

We have engaged with a number of higher education institutions, including groups such as Universities UK. Over the next few months, the Department will continue to engage with key stakeholders in business and civil society, including universities, through a series of round tables, bilaterals and visits throughout the UK. We have been clear we want to create an environment in which the UK as a whole can continue to be a world leader in research, science and tertiary education.

[Tommy Sheppard]

There are 4,512 students at the University of Edinburgh from other EU countries and several thousand other EU nationals engaged in research, teaching and administration at the university. I ask Ministers again: do they not realise that the refusal to guarantee the status of those people in our community is placing in jeopardy much of the work of that great institution and is causing unnecessary anxiety in our community?

[Mr Walker]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answers I gave earlier on the Government’s full intention to secure the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. The Government recently announced that EU students applying for a place at an English university or further education institution in 2017-18 will continue to be eligible for student loans and grants for the duration of their course, and I believe the Scottish Government have made the same guarantee.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

17. What the timetable is for the UK triggering article 50.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

T5. Does the Secretary of State agree that the UK will continue to be a leading global finance centre outside the EU?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

Absolutely. We do not think that there is any doubt about that. London has once again been ranked as the No. 1 global finance centre in 2016. The next highest ranking EU location was not even in the top 10. Being part of the EU market is partly responsible for our ranking, and we are looking to maintain the best possible terms of trade with the EU market, but that is not the only factor. London clearly leads the world with the depth and expertise of its labour force, the breadth of its knowledge, services and infrastructure and its wide array of links to markets around the world. It is in the interests of the UK and the EU that that should continue.

[Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

T7. I did not quite catch the Minister’s response earlier, so will he tell us again what priority he is giving to ensuring that universities and research funding more broadly will not be adversely affected by Brexit, and that current research protocols will be protected?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. As I said earlier, we want the UK to remain a scientific superpower. We have already seen significant guarantees from the Treasury in the lead-up to 2020. It will be in the interests of future UK Governments to ensure that we remain one of the world’s scientific leaders.

[Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)]

T6. My right hon. Friend may be aware that according to Cornwall Council’s own figures, only 1,300 jobs will be created from a £350 million EU spend between now and 2020. Does he agree that a much more tailored approach to regional funding could create more jobs more quickly for Cornwall?

UK Exit from the European Union

Robin Walker Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. May I also thank the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) for his earlier chairmanship of this wide-ranging debate? When studying these petitions, I recognised there was a wide range of views reflected in them. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) did an excellent job of reflecting on those views in his introduction. As we have seen, the debate has gone even wider in some respects, touching on a number of things beyond even the six petitions we are debating.

I thank the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) for her kind welcome and assure her that I take the responsibilities she referred to very seriously. As someone who, like probably the majority of Members in the Chamber, campaigned on the remain side in the referendum, but who now recognises that we have to reflect on the mandate of the British people and deliver on that, I am determined to make sure we do that in a way that addresses some of the concerns that I and other Members raised during that campaign, but that delivers on what the British people have voted for.

As others have pointed out, it is a healthy development in our democracy that petitions that receive substantial support should be debated in Parliament. This is not the first petitions debate we have had; indeed, we have had some excellent debates already on issues such as the devolved Administrations and on having a second referendum. I am sorry that my hon. Friend—sorry, the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies); he was my friend when we served together on the Welsh Affairs Committee—was not there for the debate on the second referendum, because he might have been the only speaker in that debate to support what the petition called for. There were 13 speakers, including many from Labour and the Scottish National party, who all accepted that rerunning the referendum was not the right approach. Perhaps we missed his eloquent advocacy on that occasion.

[Geraint Davies]

I did not speak in that debate because I was speaking on behalf of socialists from 47 countries, as a member of the Socialist Group in the Council of Europe in Strasbourg. I spoke about the monstrosity and disaster of Brexit—the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) was there as well—and explained the reason we might need a second referendum, if what is negotiated by the Minister and his Department does not resemble in the slightest the reasonable expectations of those who voted to leave.

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful for that illustration of the hon. Gentleman’s views, but I think it is important that, in responding to this debate, I focus on the six petitions before us today, which were described with typical eloquence by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) as a “six pack”, with a wide variety of flavours.

To cover the full Government response, let me first reiterate the Government’s approach to this important process. It is a process we have only one opportunity to get right, so it is right to take the correct amount of time over it. We have been consulting with a broad range of stakeholders following the referendum result, which it is right to do, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam pointed out. We are consulting with the devolved Administrations, with the overseas territories and crown dependencies, with businesses and with other interest groups to build a national consensus across the whole of the United Kingdom on our negotiating position. We will continue to involve the devolved Administrations in preparing the UK’s position.

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and the rest of the ministerial team have already heard from a wide variety of sectors and stakeholders. We will also be holding a series of roundtables in the coming weeks on a variety of topics, including aviation, life sciences, financial services, agriculture and fisheries and many more. Engagement will continue through a range of bilateral meetings, visits across the United Kingdom, and the Joint Ministerial Council, which engages senior figures from the devolved Administrations. That process is about building an informed and strong negotiating position for the whole UK, and I do not share the pessimism of the hon. Member for Swansea West on that position. I would gently point out, to a colleague for whom I have great respect, that the petition he spoke to, which had 4 million signatures, was not advocated or defended by any Member who spoke in that debate and does not appear to have the support of his own Front-Bench team or many Members of the House.

Three of the petitions we are discussing today concern article 50, when we will invoke it and how. Let me be clear: the British people have voted to leave the European Union, and their will must be respected and delivered on, but the process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship is complex. I acknowledge that the largest petition we are debating—as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam pointed out, it is the only one that would have reached the attention of the Petitions Committee on its own—calls for us to exercise article 50 with immediate effect. However, by not triggering article 50 immediately after the referendum—as the leader of the Labour party, the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), originally suggested—we have given ourselves the time to develop a UK-wide negotiating strategy and to avoid setting the clock ticking until our objectives are clear and agreed.

It is also right that the Government should not let things drag on too long. We have had pressure both internally, as we can see from the petition, and externally, from some of our counterparts on the continent, who are clear that they want us to get on with the process. As the Prime Minister made clear, we will trigger article 50 before the end of March next year. That should reassure those who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam probably rightly said, signed the petition thinking article 50 might never be invoked that we are getting on with the process and preparing the ground to make sure we can do that in the most effective way possible.

[Geraint Davies]

If I could ask for some clarification about the timing, is the objective of the Minister’s Department to try to reach certain negotiating goals, which are private at the moment, before the March deadline? If they do not reach those goals, is there any flexibility to manage the deadline in order to maximise the benefits for the British people, or is it just a hard Brexit—“You get what you get; that’s tough”?

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but as for setting out negotiating goals, he should be clear about what the Commission and Council have said about the article 50 process: that they do not want negotiations before it has started. Of course we need to prepare the strongest possible position for the UK, and we will engage where we can to make sure we set the terms for those negotiations, but it is not possible to pre-negotiate any particular deal ahead of the formal article 50 process, so I think he is perhaps setting unrealistic expectations.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Walker]

No; I think the hon. Gentleman has had plenty of opportunity to speak already.

In terms of Parliament’s involvement—this is important; the hon. Member for Darlington rightly challenged us to make sure Parliament has an important role to play—we had an excellent debate last Wednesday, in which there was wide agreement that parliamentary scrutiny will play an important role in this process. I welcome the Opposition’s acceptance of the Government’s amendment, which made it clear that we should come forward, engage with the House and listen to the views of the House, but also ensure that we do nothing to prejudice the Government’s negotiating position—if I can paraphrase it that way. That was a sensible compromise in the debate last week.

As hon. Members will be aware, the Government’s position is that triggering article 50 is a prerogative power that can be exercised by the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns) spoke about her work in the campaign to let Britain decide, and that is certainly a campaign I recognise. Even though I ended up on the remain side of the argument, I voted early on in my career for the British people to have their say through a referendum. Trusting the people has been a key part of the Government’s policy and the right approach to take. It is notable that the European Union Referendum Bill achieved cross-party support and passed through both Houses—I think by six to one. Parliament was clear, as were the Government, that it was for the people to decide whether to remain in the European Union or to leave, which the Government’s leaflet set out clearly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam pointed out.

However, Parliament will clearly have a role in ensuring we find the best way forward. The Department for Exiting the European Union will consider the detailed arrangements to provide for that. We have already enjoyed a number of excellent debates in both this Chamber and the main Chamber. While I am grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) for his suggestion that this Chamber be renamed, I think it might be early in the day for that.

[Jenny Chapman]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response to my query about the role of Parliament, but he is still being rather vague. He has said that his Department will come back with some more clear ideas about how Parliament will be involved. When should we expect that?

[Mr Walker]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set out that he is approaching the usual channels to ask how that can be done. We have had some queries about Government time. We would certainly like to look into that and see how it can be dealt with. I am about to come to the important role of the European Communities Act 1972 repeal Bill and the role Parliament will have to play in that. It is clear from the cross-party views expressed in last week’s debate that Parliament has an important role to play in scrutiny as we prepare for this process.

The second largest petition we are dealing with today calls for the immediate repeal of the European Communities Act 1972. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union have set out that we will introduce primary legislation in the next parliamentary Session that, when enacted, will repeal the European Communities Act 1972 on the day we leave the European Union. The Bill will transfer current EU law into domestic law, while allowing for amendments that ensure we have a functioning statute book at the point at which we leave the European Union.

Repealing the ECA now, as some have suggested—although nobody has suggested it in this debate—without having a withdrawal agreement in place would simply not work. It would be a breach of international and EU law to withdraw unilaterally from the EU. Such a breach could create a hostile environment in which to negotiate either a new relationship with the remaining EU member states or new trade agreements with non-EU countries. We are clear, therefore, that while ECA repeal is a necessary part of the process, it should be consequent to the legally correct article 50 process.

The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn) mentioned her proposed Bill on workers’ rights. We will need to engage with that at the appropriate time, but I direct her to the clear statement from the Secretary of State on 10 October, in which he said:

“I have given an undertaking that there will be no reversal of the protection of workers’ rights, as has the Prime Minister. Indeed, she has gone beyond that and said that there will be an expansion of that protection.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2016; Vol. 615, c. 66.]

The Prime Minister has set out the ambition of enhancing the workers’ rights we have. We will come to debate the Bill proposed by the hon. Member for Great Grimsby at the appropriate time, but we should certainly ensure we enshrine those rights as we move forward in this process.

[Melanie Onn]

On the point about bringing forward legislation and amendments to ensure that law will be functional, does that not risk opening the gates to other areas of legislation and going beyond making the law functional in this country? It could put some of our legislation at risk from further debate by people who might not support some European legislation.

[Mr Walker]

Whenever a Bill is put before Parliament, there is an opportunity for further debate about the premises of that Bill, but the Government’s intention in this process is to translate the existing body of law. The advice we have taken to date, which is not necessarily the final advice, is that European Court of Justice jurisprudence would continue to apply in domestic law unless or until it is overturned following withdrawal. I hope that provides the hon. Lady with some assurance. We will debate that issue at another time.

Free movement was one of the key issues debated in the EU referendum. I recognise the point made by the hon. Member for Darlington that we cannot necessarily read into the result of the referendum every possible interpretation. I also welcome her statement that the Labour party wants to engage in this debate. That represents significant progress from where we have sometimes been in the past. As the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have made clear, as we conduct our negotiations, it must be a priority to regain more control of the number of people who come here from Europe. The precise way in which the Government will control the movement of EU nationals is yet to be determined, and we are carefully considering the options open to us.

I recognise many of the views expressed today. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam made it clear that we will want to continue to attract the brightest and the best. In my own Department, we have plenty to keep us occupied and to be working on. This will not be our decision in isolation. The whole range of Government, including other Departments such as the Home Office and the Treasury, will want to look at this, and we will want to come up with a system that works.

As the Prime Minister has said, there is no single silver bullet that is the answer to dealing with immigration. We have to look at the whole range of issues, from the rules we have for people coming into the country to how we deal with abuse of the system. That will be an important part of our considerations.

[Jenny Chapman]

While the Minister is on the topic of immigration, has his Secretary of State enabled him to say anything about EU nationals currently resident and working here?

[Mr Walker]

I will reiterate what the Secretary of State has said: it is absolutely his intention to secure the rights of EU nationals who are currently working here, but we must also secure the rights of British nationals working in the EU. That will be a priority as we go into the negotiations. I can reassure Members that Parliament will continue to have a very important role in scrutinising this and the Government’s further policies on immigration.

Finally, I come to the idea of having a new bank holiday called independence day. There have been a number of references to the film of that name. Alas, I am afraid that the Government have no current plans to create another permanent UK bank holiday. Tempting though it might be, an independence day would face fierce competition from the likes of Saint George’s day, Trafalgar day and many more. Within this context, it is hard to commit to 23 June over its many rivals. Unfortunately, it is just too costly, in the view of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, to introduce another holiday at this stage. When that Department analysed the impact of an additional holiday for the diamond jubilee, it was found to cost employers more than £1 billion.

We had questions from two Northern Irish colleagues—the hon. Members for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and for Foyle—about the position of the UK Government with regard to the Good Friday agreement, or Belfast agreement, and subsequent agreements of that sort. That is not the subject of this debate, but I refer them to the detailed evidence that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I gave to the House of Lords EU Select Committee last week. I assure the hon. Member for Foyle that the UK Government stand by all their commitments under the Good Friday agreement and subsequent agreements. I have been out with the Secretary of State to the Republic of Ireland, where we had very good and useful talks on a number of matters of shared interest. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will continue to work as closely as we can with the devolved Administrations and our friends in the Republic of Ireland.

To sum up, I reassure Members that the Government are committed to getting the best deal for Britain, and that the Department is working hard to develop our negotiating position as we prepare to commence the formal process of exiting the EU. Our instructions from the British people are clear, and we must move ahead. This debate has provided a valuable opportunity to discuss some of the issues and the process, but what is most important is that we make a success of our negotiations. I welcome the role that this debate will play in supporting that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam said, we must create certainty for businesses and investors as we go through this process, and I am confident that we will continue to do that.

EU Referendum Rules

Robin Walker Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

I congratulate the Petitions Committee on arranging the debate and the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) on sponsoring it.

It is a healthy development that petitions receiving widespread support should be debated in Westminster Hall. This one has achieved more support than most—we should recognise that—and I recognise the great interest in the subject around the country. We have heard today from many speakers whose constituencies had a high turnout and it is striking, as the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) pointed out, that we have not heard from anyone who has backed the petition’s motion unequivocally and called for a second referendum on the same terms.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) got called short in his statements. I suspect that I will be called rather short in mine as well, so I have some sympathy for him there. However, many of the issues he raised were addressed in the debate we had on the devolved Administrations and we absolutely stand by the assurances we gave about engagement with the Administrations on those matters.

The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) is an experienced parliamentarian and he held out all sorts of interesting theoretical possibilities and challenges of the negotiations to come but, regarding the petition, it was clear that he did not support it. He talked about those MPs who were calling for article 50 to be triggered immediately and, of course, one of those was the leader of his party who, on 24 June, said that the article should be triggered at once. Admittedly, in July he corrected himself and recognised that it was a good idea to prepare for negotiations.

As we have heard, the referendum was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history. Turnout was high, at 72%, with more than 33 million people having their say. More than a million more people voted leave than voted remain. The turnout was bigger than in any general election since 1992 and it was the second-highest popular vote of any form in our long and distinguished democratic history. No single party or Prime Minister has achieved more votes in our history than the vote to leave did in June. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) spoke about the passion with which the referendum was fought, and the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) spoke of people who were voting for the first time in years. I recognise both of those statements. This was a once-in-a-generation vote and the decision must be respected.

Like many people who signed the petition, though by no means all of them, I campaigned for a different outcome, but I also spoke out repeatedly in the House, both before and during the passage of the legislation for the referendum, about trusting the people on this matter. On 24 June I might have preferred a different result, but I did not falter in my belief that it was right to give the British people their say. Both the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (William Wragg) spoke passionately about people going through the stages of grief. One of those stages is denial, but the one thing we cannot do is deny the outcome of the vote. To deny the outcome or the validity of the referendum is to deny the clear mandate of the British people—in this House, as hon. Friends have pointed out, we are their servants and not the other way around.

There will be no second referendum, no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to re-join through the back door. Indeed, that would fly in the face of democracy and, I believe, entrench the sense of a disconnect between the country and this place that some argue contributed to the referendum result. We must now prepare for the process of exiting the EU, as we heard from the hon. Member for Brent North, and the Government are committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations. I cannot cover all the detail of the preparations, but I refer hon. Members to the statement and responses given by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, my right hon. Friend for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), earlier today. As he said, we should seek to deliver on what the country asked us to do through the referendum. We are encouraged by the national mood and by the fact that many who voted remain now want to make a success of the course Britain has chosen.

We will work hard to get the best possible deal for the whole of the UK. The Prime Minister and the Conservatives in Government will provide strong and proven leadership as the UK begins its negotiations to leave the EU and forge a new role for itself in the world. As the Secretary of State set out earlier during his detailed statement and more than two hours of questions, we will consult widely in the process, to make the most of the opportunities that our departure presents—getting out into the world and doing business right across the globe, while at home building a Britain that works for everyone.

Let me address precisely the premise of the petition. It called for the referendum to be rerun in the event that certain thresholds or super-majorities were not achieved. Some hon. Members have suggested and other motions have argued that it should be rerun on the basis of the quality of the debate. That is not the subject of the petition and hon. Members were right to observe that such a criticism could be made, subjectively, of almost any democratic contest in the history of the world.

The European Union Referendum Bill was introduced in May 2015, following years of long, hard debate. It delivered on a manifesto commitment of my party, which I have little doubt played an important part in our election success. It delivered on the promise given by the Government at the last election to give the British people their say on the UK’s membership in an in/out referendum by the end of 2017 and then to respect the outcome of their decision. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) pointed out, the previous Prime Minister made it clear before the referendum that the Government would respect the result.

As I am sure hon. Members will recall, the Bill was fully scrutinised and debated in both Houses, with this House supporting the Bill on Third Reading by an overwhelming margin of six to one before it received Royal Assent in December 2015. Therefore, I cannot accept the argument that we ought now to have a second referendum. Nor can I accept that a threshold ought to have been set when no such provisions were put to a vote during the many debates in this House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) pointed out—I am grateful to him for bringing his expertise and experience to the debate—those points were never brought up in the debate or put to a vote during that period. We, as parliamentarians, signed up to the Bill and we must now respect the outcome of the referendum.

It was the European Union Act 2015 itself that set out the terms for the EU referendum. It set the question that would appear on the ballot paper, the absence of a threshold and the franchise. It also provided a power to set the precise date of the referendum in regulations. Just as with the 1975 referendum on Europe and the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence, the Act did not set a threshold nor require a super-majority for any outcome. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) talked about the 1979 referendums and about how they did have such requirements, but he also pointed out that the Scottish National party and others opposed that approach and its call for a super-majority. I recognise also his point about bringing people together in the aftermath of the referendum. He is right to say that we should bring people together rather than concentrate on rerunning the referendum. He is also right that we need certainty, and much of the statement that was set out earlier today and the announcement from the Chancellor during the summer are there to provide that certainty. A second or third referendum—a neverendum, as some hon. Members have suggested—would not provide the certainty that our country needs.

I conclude by saying that turnout was high, our instructions from the British people are clear and we are moving ahead. The machinery of government is now working hard to get the best deal from Brexit. While respecting the views of the millions who signed the petition, we must also respect the millions more who voted on 23 June and the clear mandate that was given, not merely after a few weeks of campaigning but after a debate that exercised this House and our nation for decades. I look forward to many more debates in this Chamber and in the House about the nature of our exit and the future relations between the United Kingdom and Europe, but I must be clear on behalf of the Government that we will respect the outcome of the referendum, treat it as an instruction from the British people and carry out the mandate they have given us.

EU Exit: Devolved Governments

Robin Walker Excerpts

Thursday 21st July 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)]

I will do my best. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey—not for the first time. I well remember serving under you on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee where, among other things, we visited Scotland to look into another referendum. I thank hon. Members present from all parties for their kind welcomes and congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on securing this debate, which is both timely and extremely valuable.

Before I go into the substance of the debate, I want to make a few opening remarks on the role of this new Department, because this is only the second debate that our new Department has answered. I am delighted to be joining the Department for Exiting the European Union, working with three new Ministers, led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), who is our Secretary of State. Our Department will oversee exit negotiations and shape the new relationship between the UK and the EU. I particularly welcome the request from the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) for a debate in the main Chamber, which I will ensure is fed back, and I suspect he will not be disappointed when the House returns.

Our new Department has four main aims. The first is to lead the policy work to support the UK’s negotiations to leave the EU and to establish the future relationship between the EU and the UK. The second is to work closely with the UK Parliament, devolved Administrations, overseas territories and Crown dependencies and a wide range of other interested parties on what approach we should take to negotiations. I would like to reassure the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) that London will be certainly included in that. The third is to conduct the negotiations in support of the Prime Minister, including bilateral discussion on EU exit with other European countries. The fourth is to lead and co-ordinate cross-Government work, liaising with many Departments—including on agriculture, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith)—to seize the opportunities and ensure a smooth process of exit on the best possible terms.

The new Department will equip the UK to prepare to make a success of leaving the EU: to meet its challenges and to seize the opportunities it represents. In my role as Minister in this new Department, it is essential that I have a good understanding of the interests and concerns of Members, the constituents they represent and the devolved Administrations. I am grateful to have heard today from so many Members from such a variety of parties.

This debate is timely and has been informative. It is just the start of a long process of consultation and I look forward to many more such debates, but I hope that I will not have to camp out permanently in this Chamber, as has been suggested. We have heard from both sides of the Chamber. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) was extremely welcome with his enormous parliamentary knowledge. I suspect his plumbing skills will be much appreciated in the months to come.

Like 62% of the population of Scotland, 56% of the population of Northern Ireland and, I think, almost every Member in the Chamber, I voted for remain, but the decision has been made across the UK and we should no longer talk in terms of leavers or remainers. It is the responsibility of us all to secure the best possible outcome in the national interest of all UK citizens. We all need to work together to pursue this bold and positive agenda.

I recognise the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South about least-affluent areas, which is certainly reflected in my constituency. Now, more than ever, we must work to make sure those areas can thrive.

The Prime Minister made clear her passionate belief in the United Kingdom and her commitment to engage fully with the devolved Administrations as we prepare for negotiations on the UK’s exit from the EU. I wholeheartedly share those sentiments and I look forward to working closely with colleagues from the devolved Administrations and Members of this House representing their constituents as we shape the future for the whole UK.

I have touched on the points made by the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse. It is great that the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) spoke about respect. I assure him that whenever we have disagreements with his party, the Government have absolute respect for the Scottish National party and its role.

[Ian Blackford]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; I know that he is short of time. I thank him for his remarks, but given that the Scottish Parliament has mandated the First Minister to negotiate on Scotland’s behalf to secure its place in the EU, will the Government respect that? If the Parliament in Edinburgh ultimately votes for a referendum, will the Government in London consent to that?

[Mr Walker]

I think the hon. Gentleman realises that my remit in this Department does not cover the full breadth of constitutional issues, but there is certainly respect for Scotland’s position and the First Minister. The fact that the Prime Minister broke up a reshuffle to go to Scotland to meet the First Minister is an indication of that respect.

I repeat my personal commitment and that of the Prime Minister and the whole Government to involve fully the devolved Administrations in the preparations for the important and complex task ahead of us. There can be no doubt that we are working towards securing the best possible deal for the whole UK and that to achieve this we will need to work openly and collaboratively with colleagues in the devolved Administrations at official and ministerial level.

It has been useful to hear hon. Members’ thoughts this afternoon on how the devolved Administrations can be involved in the negotiations, but I am sure that they understand that the format of the negotiations has yet to be decided.

[Ian Blackford]

Will there will be role for the Scottish Secretary? I am not sure what his role may or may not be.

[Mr Walker]

The Scottish Secretary, like many interested parties, will of course be consulted and, as part of the Government, feed into the Cabinet process to inform the Prime Minister in her negotiations. The Prime Minister said when she met the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales that, as we prepare for the process, we will fully engage their Administrations to ensure we achieve a shared understanding of their interests and objectives. Detailed discussions have already begun at an official level.

Although I am an inexperienced and new Minister, I am not a complete stranger to the devolved Administrations. As I said earlier, when I served on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, we visited Scotland. I also served for a number of years on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs with the hon. Member for Llanelli—I am grateful for her welcome—and, towards the end of the previous Parliament, I served as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office. I am looking forward to renewing friendships in each of the devolved Governments over the coming months. I have also enjoyed engaging with Members for all three devolved legislatures as a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.

Today, my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), the Minister of State in our new Department, is attending the Royal Welsh show, where I have no doubt he will engage widely with the rural and farming interests of Wales mentioned by the hon. Member for Llanelli, and perhaps with some of the exporters she mentioned. The Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Wales, as well as the Minister of State in my Department and the Parliamentary Under-Secretaries of State for Scotland and Northern Ireland, will be attending an extraordinary meeting of the British-Irish Council later this week. That demonstrates the UK Government’s commitment to understanding the priorities of the devolved Administrations, as well as our other partners in the Republic of Ireland and the Crown dependencies. There will be many more ministerial discussions and, I suspect—to reassure my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire—a great deal more parliamentary scrutiny of all sorts in the months to come.

It has been very good to hear hon. Members’ thoughts on potential settlements for Scotland, but the Prime Minister has been clear that the Union is very important to her and to this Government. She was also very clear with the First Minister that some of the ideas being brought forward are, in her view, impractical, but she is willing to listen to options that are proposed, and we will be engaging fully with the devolved Administrations. A number of hon. Members referred to Lord Falconer’s involvement. I can assure them that his suggestions will be given proper consideration.

I heard with interest the five priorities that the hon. Member for Edinburgh South set out. I can assure him that they will all be given consideration and that the Department recognises the urgency of responding on the EU nationals issue. If he consults Hansard, he will see that I asked questions on that before my appointment to this role. We all want to see, as he said, securing the position of EU nationals in this country and UK nationals in the EU right at the top of the list of priorities.

I would like to reiterate the words of the hon. Member for Edinburgh South in an article that he wrote on 4 July:

“We all need to pause and reflect whilst the picture becomes a little clearer in the coming weeks and months.”

There is a long and complex period of analysis ahead of us. That starts now, and there have been very useful contributions to it in this debate.

I want to touch on EU funding, which was particularly mentioned by the hon. Member for Llanelli. I know that many hon. Members have expressed concern about it. Let me reassure them that I recognise how sensitive and important that issue is, and it is one of the Department’s top priorities. UK Government officials have already begun talks with devolved Administrations, and those discussions have started well. Of course, as long as we remain in the EU, those payments will continue, but I recognise that for the long term there is some uncertainty. For the longer term, a whole range of decisions will have to be made, including on funding. I am happy to commit to involving devolved Ministers and officials fully in that work.

I recognise also the points made by the hon. Member for Llanelli on steel. Very importantly, this Government are working closely with Tata, bidders, the Welsh Government and trade unions to support a sale and support a long-term future for the steel industry in Wales and across the UK. The former Prime Minister spoke with Carwyn Jones on 7 July about the situation, and we will continue to work as closely as we can with his Administration.

[Catherine West]

Will the Minister give way?