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Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
1. What assessment he has made of the implications for his Department's policies of the National Audit Office’s recent report on funding arrangements for the Big Society Network.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
3. What assessment he has made of the implications for his Department's policies of the National Audit Office’s recent report on funding arrangements for the Big Society Network.
The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark)
I take this report seriously. I am satisfied that the issues raised concerned adherence to process, and therefore do not feel that there are any implications for the policies of my Department.
Richard Burden
First, I welcome the Minister to his place. When it seems pretty clear that the National Audit Office had some pretty damning conclusions regarding the mismanagement of over £2 million of public money to the Big Society Network, and when, in my own constituency, the SWEET project, which got a big society award, ends up having money cut by the Government because it does precisely the innovation work that it got the award for in the first place, what exactly, in this day and age, does the big society mean? While he is at it, will the Minister look into the circumstances surrounding the cuts to the SWEET project?
Mr Newmark
I shall certainly look into that matter, as the hon. Gentleman has asked. We welcome the NAO’s report and have learned the lessons from this experience. There are no conclusions that the Cabinet Office did anything untoward in this regard. All the report says is that we did not adhere to the guidance we issued for this particular programme on a couple of points.
Mr Newmark
This has been investigated and no evidence of impropriety has been found.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
None of us could let that go. Thanks to the National Audit Office’s report, we now know that the Government’s big society lies in tatters. We have since learned that the charity the Prime Minister personally launched at No. 10 Downing street is not only under investigation by the Charity Commission, but is under investigation for moving Cabinet Office funding to its parent company, which is chaired by a major Conservative party donor who also earned hefty consultancy fees from it. Was the Cabinet Secretary aware that Government funding was being transferred not to the thousands of legitimate charities in this country, but to the bank account of a Conservative party donor?
Mr Newmark
This allegation has been investigated by the grants manager, and appropriate action to recover any funds not spent in line with the grant agreement is being taken.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
2. What assessment he has made of the scope of the Charity Commission guidance on campaigning and political activity; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark)
Charities play an important role in shaping Government policy. Indeed, Departments are working on the development and implementation of many our policies. However, it has long been the case that the law and Charity Commission guidance prohibits charities from party political campaigning and activities. I believe that that is the right position.
Charlie Elphicke
Does the Minister nevertheless agree that it would be right to return to the Charity Commission guidance of 2004, which ensured that charities focused on social justice and helping people in need on the front line, not on big marketing budgets and playing party politics?
Mr Newmark
The Charity Commission’s guidance is clear about what charities can and cannot do and reflects the commission’s view of the underlying law. The guidance was last reviewed in 2009. The Charity Commission has said that it keeps all its guidance under review to ensure that it remains relevant and up to date, but it has no immediate plans to amend its guidance on campaigning and political activity.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Since 1921 the Royal British Legion has undertaken political campaigns for the benefit of military veterans and their families. Will the charities Minister please affirm the right of charities to undertake political campaigning in line with their charitable objectives? If he cannot say that loud and clear, could he please get back to his knitting?
Mr Newmark
I take the hon. Lady’s point and I was expecting a question along those lines, so I have stitched together a response for her. Charities, with all their expertise, have long been at the forefront of helping to tackle some of the country’s biggest social challenges and have an important role to play in helping shape a Government policy, but they must stay out of party politics, which has been a long-standing requirement by charity law—[Interruption.] Is the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), who is chuntering, saying that her party seeks to change the law?
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) for tabling the question. Was it not the Leader of the Opposition who, when in government, commissioned the report that changed the Charity Commission guidelines, which are giving so many people so much concern?
Mr Newmark
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but I want to stick to the main point. Charities have enormous expertise and can contribute to shaping Government policy. I want to make it clear that political campaigning by charities is absolutely right, but it is important that they steer clear of party politics.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Over the past few weeks it has been absolutely embarrassing to see a number of Conservative MPs come out of the woodwork and attack some of this country’s best charities. Would it not be better for the Minister and his team to get behind those charities and allow them to comment and campaign on issues relating to their work?
Mr Newmark
As I have made clear time and again, and as somebody who has spent more than 30 years of his life in the voluntary and charity sector, I say that it is absolutely right that charities have the right to campaign on the issues that they feel strongly about. The only point I have been making is that they should steer clear of party politics. Campaigning is absolutely right and they must continue to do that.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
4. What progress he has made on his programme to achieve savings from greater efficiency in and reform of central Government.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
On 10 June, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I announced savings through efficiency reform of central Government of £14.3 billion for the last financial year, measured against a 2009-10 baseline. These savings include both recurring and non-recurring items, and include £5.4 billion from procurement and commercial savings, £3.3 billion in project savings and £4.7 billion from work force reform and pension savings.
Mike Freer
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he able to quantify the specific savings to the taxpayer from Government Departments and agencies now being required to share buildings, rather than having their own stand-alone premises?
Mr Maude
We have got out of a huge number of properties. We have reduced our office estate by the equivalent of 26 times the size of Buckingham palace, raising £1.4 billion in capital receipts and saving £625 million in running costs. Our One Public Estate programme, which is working very closely with a number of local authorities, is saving even more money and releasing property for the private sector to create jobs and growth by local government, central Government and indeed the wider public sector co-locating, which both saves money and is more convenient for the public.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Cost-effectiveness is of course something that all of us should aim for, but does the Minister agree that in trying to achieve that it would be better if best practice was shared right across the United Kingdom, including Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland?
Mr Maude
We try to promulgate good practice as best we can. We are, however, localists. We believe that the wider public sector—those who have responsibility and are accountable for the way in which the wider public sector operates—must be responsible for their own decisions. I have had very productive conversations with Ministers in the devolved Northern Ireland Government. There is much that we can learn from each other, and much that we can gain, as in the One Public Estate programme, from working together.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
Why has the Cabinet Office increased spending on consultants and agency staff to over £50 million in the last year?
Mr Maude
As the hon. Gentleman will know, the amount of money spent by the Government on consultants and contingent labour has been cut very dramatically from the grossly swollen levels that we inherited from the Government of whom he was a supporter. [Interruption.] It will sometimes go up a little bit, and it will sometimes come down a bit.
Mr Maude
Actually, we sometimes need to get the right skills that do not exist in government, and by and large we will make sure that we have the right skills available on the right terms. [Interruption.] I was grateful to the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), who is chuntering from a sedentary position, for the support he expressed for our efficiency and reform programme in a very robust speech earlier this week.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
5. What progress he has made on providing support for social enterprises.
The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark)
We are committed to supporting social enterprises, and we are leading the world in growing the social investment market to provide social enterprises with access to the finance and advice that they need. I am particularly pleased that we are working with Social Enterprise UK to deliver the first ever Social Saturday this Saturday to encourage more people to buy from social enterprises. I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend’s constituent Sebastian Huempfer, who yesterday won the Prime Minister’s Points of Light award for his work with soap recycling social enterprise CLEAN SL8.
Nicola Blackwood
Oxfordshire is a hotbed of social enterprise and tech expertise, as the Minister for Business and Enterprise discovered when he visited the outstanding social enterprise Oxford Launchpad at the Said Business School yesterday. Does the Minister for Civil Society agree that the middle-stage funding gap is acting as a barrier to UK social tech achieving its full potential, and that raising the cap on the social incubator fund is the right response to this problem?
Mr Newmark
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. We are working closely with key stakeholders to ensure that social ventures can access the support and finance that they need throughout the different stages of development. Following the support provided through the social incubator fund, there are now a number of opportunities for social ventures to access support.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I see that you are wearing a slightly pinkish tie today, Mr Speaker, but pinkness seems to be absent from the Government Front Bench. Today is “wear it pink” day, which is the national campaign day for breast cancer.
Social enterprise is a very important sector and it is getting more important by the day. Has the Minister seen the wonderful picture of Mrs Thatcher’s face with Che Guevara’s beret, which launches the new manifesto for the social enterprise sector? That is important, because it marks the conjunction of social enterprise, social enterprise investment and crowdfunding. We would be very grateful if he put his weight behind it.
Mr Speaker
The image is visible in Westminster station and doubtless elsewhere, as I am sure the Minister is aware.
Mr Newmark
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. When I was coming into Parliament, the image struck me as a cross-party approach to campaigning. We lead the way on social impact bonds. The UK is also leading the charge through the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, which contributes to the Government’s ambition to reform public services to ensure that they not only achieve maximum value for money but contribute to their local communities.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
7. What recent steps he has taken to remove barriers to small and medium-sized enterprises participating in government procurement.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
In response to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), I think that my tie is at least as pink as yours, Mr Speaker.
The direct spend of central Government with SMEs increased from £3 billion in 2009-10 to £4.5 billion in 2012-13. SMEs benefited from a further £4 billion in indirect spend though the supply chain. We are therefore well on track to deliver our ambition that 25% of Government spend through the supply chain should be with SMEs. However, we are still not satisfied, so we are taking forward a number of the recommendations of Lord Young of Graffham on creating an SME-friendly single market in, among other things, the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill.
Debbie Abrahams
I thank the Minister for his reply. However, with £36 billion owed to small businesses in late payments, will he ensure that the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill requires companies to demonstrate that they will pay all their suppliers promptly in order to be on the Government’s approved supplier list?
Mr Maude
The hon. Lady is a doughty campaigner on this front and I commend her for it. The policy of central Government is to pay undisputed invoices within five days and to pass 30-day payment terms down the supply chain as a condition of contract. The situation is therefore improving. We encourage our prime contractors to pay more quickly than the 30-day commitment on a voluntary basis. We have tasked Departments with managing their contracts in a way that ensures that that happens. We also encourage SMEs that are not being paid by the prime contractor sufficiently quickly to let us know so that we can investigate.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
8. What progress he has made on the commitment in the “Open Public Services” White Paper of July 2011 to publish public service user satisfaction data on all providers from all sectors.
The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin)
I am delighted to be able to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the progress in that incredibly important area has been considerable. The friends and family test, which is our main user feedback mechanism, is used in all hospitals and maternity wards. By March 2015, it will be extended to the rest of the NHS. It is already used in further education, it has been used in the National Citizen Service since August and it will be used in Jobcentre Plus from March next year. The intention is to roll it out right across the public services.
Stephen Timms
I am heartened. The Government’s Work programme is a good example of a public service where user satisfaction data would be extremely valuable, but the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has steadfastly resisted their introduction. Will the Minister have another go at persuading the Secretary of State to introduce the use of such data in that service?
Mr Letwin
I am grateful for that suggestion. I will certainly talk to my right hon. Friend about it. He recently agreed to introduce the data in Jobcentre Plus and we have had to work through the details of that. I will certainly open discussions with him about the Work programme and will have discussions about other programmes across the rest of Government.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
My responsibilities are efficiency and reform, civil service issues, the public sector industrial relations strategy, Government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security.
Gareth Johnson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that statement. Does he agree that, contrary to some suggestions that have been made, the chief executive of the civil service will be best placed to accelerate the pace of reforms in the civil service in this country?
Mr Maude
We do believe that the new post will play a vital role in embedding the programme of efficiency reform that we have driven. I appreciate the support of Labour Front Benchers for that approach, so that there will be consistency whatever the result of any election. He—or the new chief executive officer, whether a he or a she—will work closely with the Cabinet Secretary and myself in supporting the performance management of permanent secretaries, but will also line manage the heads of the cross-Government corporate functions. That will increase the focus on driving efficiency.
Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)
Last week, the Minister for Civil Society made his first, stunning intervention as the new Minister responsible for charities by saying:
“The important thing charities should be doing is sticking to their knitting”.
When so many charities and people who work for them do such a magnificent job in every part of the country, was that not the most condescending, patronising, inept, out-of-touch and just plain wrong thing for the Minister to say? Will he finally now apologise?
The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark)
Already?
As I have made abundantly clear, charities play an important role in shaping a Government policy, and indeed, with their expertise, they should be doing that. What I made absolutely clear was that charities should not get involved in party politics, because that is the law.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
T2. As part of our long-term economic plan, the Government have disposed of more than 1,250 properties since 2010. What is the Minister for the Cabinet Office doing to release more Government properties so that we can reduce costs and become more efficient?
Mr Maude
As I said earlier, we have already reduced our office estate by the huge amount of 2 million square metres since 2010, the equivalent of 26 times the size of Buckingham palace. The strategic land and property review being led by my officials in the Government Property Unit will enable sites worth at least £5 billion, and potentially much more, to be released over the next five or six years.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
T3. Small businesses in my constituency have long since given up trying to jump through the hoops that they face in even bidding for Government contracts. They certainly do not recognise the description that the Minister gave of the opportunities for Government procurement. Is not the truth that despite all his talk, it is almost impossible for small businesses to get Government contracts?
Mr Maude
In that case, it is remarkable that the amount of Government business being given to small and medium-sized businesses has risen to nearly 20% and is on course to rise even higher. Under the arrangements left in place by the Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported, a lot of small businesses were simply frozen out because the process was so bureaucratic and clunking that they could not even get into the starting gate, let alone have a chance of winning the race. Now they can, and increasingly they do.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
T5. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Cheshire Community Development Trust on the work it does to help the people of Weaver Vale to get into work? Does he agree that that is exactly the sort of social action that should be used as a template to unite communities across the country?
Mr Newmark
I am delighted that my hon. Friend has highlighted the important work that Cheshire Community Development Trust does to support people in Weaver Vale. Through our social action work, we are supporting communities across the country to take a more active role in shaping their neighbourhoods and working together for the good of others.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
T4. On user satisfaction data, does the Minister accept that the Public Accounts Committee was right to say that the position is currently far short of the ambitions in the White Paper? How long will it be before user satisfaction data are published for all services and all providers?
The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin)
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and so was the Public Accounts Committee, to say that we need to go much further. The ambition is to cover all public services. I am currently conducting a review of the complaints procedures across Government to see how we can mine them for user satisfaction data. I hope that that, combined with the expansion of the friends and family test, will lead to increasing fulfilment of our ambition, but the House should be in no doubt that it will take some time to fulfil it completely.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
T6. In the previous financial year more than £85 million was spent by the taxpayer on full-time trade union representatives. Is that a fair figure, and what is the Minister doing to reduce it?
Mr Maude
At the time of the last general election there was no monitoring whatsoever of the volume of taxpayer-funded trade union facility time in the civil service. We now have controls in place that saved £23 million last year, and we have already reduced the number of full-time taxpayer-funded union officials from 200 in May 2010 to fewer than 10 this summer.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 10 September.
The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr William Hague)
I have been asked to reply on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who is with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland today to listen and talk to voters about the huge choice they face. Their message to the Scottish people is simple: from the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we want you to stay in the United Kingdom.
I join the Prime Minister in the tribute he paid on Monday to Jim Dobbin who died at the weekend. He was a proud Scot, and a hard-working and principled parliamentarian who was respected on both sides of the House. He will be very sadly missed, and I know that the thoughts of the whole House are with his family and friends.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have further such meetings later today.
Mrs Hodgson
I join the Leader of the House in paying tribute to our very good friend Jim Dobbin. He was a kind and thoroughly decent man and will be sorely missed. Our thoughts and prayers are with his wife Pat and their family.
The bedroom tax is discriminatory, damaging, and it is not even working. Last Friday the House was very clear. Will the Government now listen? Will they scrap that wretched policy, because if they will not, we will?
Mr Hague
This is a basic issue of fairness. For someone who lived in private rented accommodation and received housing benefit, these rules applied throughout the whole of the last Labour Government, and we had a situation in which neighbouring households could be treated unequally. The hon. Lady asked about the private Member’s Bill. The proposals in that Bill could cost the country up to £1 billion. Because we have introduced a cap on overall spending, making those changes would mean finding savings elsewhere. I have not heard any suggestions on that from the Labour party.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Assuming there is a no vote in the Scottish referendum, who in the Government will represent England in the new devolution settlement? Who speaks for England, because we need a voice and a new deal?
Mr Hague
Well, there are many of us. Having represented Yorkshire for 25 years, I can claim to speak for England from time to time—Yorkshiremen are always keen to speak for a far bigger area than they represent. All these debates are to be had once the referendum is concluded.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his words about our good friend and colleague Jim Dobbin, and add my tribute to him after his sudden and tragic death at the weekend. He was, as has been said, a thoroughly decent man who always stuck to his principles. At a time when it is fashionable to say that politicians are in it for themselves and out of touch, he was the absolute opposite of that. Our deepest sympathies are with Pat and their children, and we will miss him greatly.
“Historic” is a much overused word in politics, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree that in just eight days’ time the people of Scotland will make a truly historic decision? This is their vote, but I want the message from the Labour Benches to be heard loud and clear: we want Scotland to stay.
Mr Hague
I agree with the right hon. and learned Lady. That is a clear message from the Opposition and, despite our differing political perspectives, from the Government parties as well. I hope, therefore, that the message the people of Scotland will hear from the House, where Scottish parliamentarians have made an immense contribution for generations, is that we want to stay together and cannot imagine life on these isles without them. She is a London MP and speaks for millions in what she just said; I am a Yorkshire MP who has served as Secretary of State for Wales, and we are all proud to be British, combining those identities. There is no doubt we would all be diminished if Scotland was separated from the people of the rest of the UK.
Ms Harman
The roots of our party run deep in Scotland. We delivered devolution and the Scottish Parliament, but we need to go further. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there will be further devolution and that a Scotland Bill setting out new powers will be published in January?
Mr Hague
As the right hon. and learned Lady knows, the three main party leaders have come together to agree to develop a programme for change. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) has set out a process for how that change could be delivered to a tight timetable, and all three main parties have endorsed that timetable. It means immediate action the day after the referendum to start the legislative process; it means a Command Paper, including proposals, at the end of October, with a full draft Scotland Bill published by the end of January; and it means the introduction of a Bill after the general election, regardless of who forms the Government. That is a clear timetable and it shows that Scots can have change without irreversible separation and without such risks to jobs and their future.
Mr Hague
As we all know, the decision next week is a matter for the people of Scotland, but the implications will be felt by all the people of the United Kingdom. We are already steadily devolving increased powers to parts of England and Wales. Under this Government, Wales has received more primary law-making powers and we are moving towards devolving tax and borrowing powers. We want to see devolution in Northern Ireland succeed. In England, the Localism Act 2011 devolved power over business rates to local authorities, and city deals have given local areas more of a say over their governance. One of the greatest strengths of the United Kingdom is that it is not a rigid union; it is a living, flexible Union.
Ms Harman
For Labour Members, a fundamental principle of our politics is solidarity. We want the UK to stick together in the cause of social justice. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is wrong to set the different countries of the UK against each other, whether on workers’ rights or corporation tax?
Mr Hague
The right hon. and learned Lady makes a powerful point about solidarity in the UK. For 300 years, we and our predecessors have sat in the House with Scottish parliamentarians and their predecessors. Since the 18th century, they have sat together to implement a great range of progressive causes, from the abolition of the slave trade to our pursuit of human rights and sound development across the world today. We have often led the way at times of world crisis and been an inspiration to democratic peoples elsewhere. The next 300 years could easily be as turbulent and dangerous as the last 300 years, so to tear apart a union so proven, so precious and so valuable would be a tragic mistake for all our peoples.
Ms Harman
People in Scotland can now be certain that with a no vote, there would be change and more powers for Scotland. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that posed against that certainty is the uncertainty that a yes vote would bring on so many issues, including jobs, pensions, mortgages and the currency?
Mr Hague
The uncertainty it would bring is impossible to list in answer to one question, but a letter signed last week by more than 120 job creators from across a range of Scottish business concluded that the business case for independence had not been made. It said:
“Uncertainty surrounds a number of vital issues including currency, regulation, tax, pensions, EU membership and support for our exports around the world; and uncertainty is bad for business.”
The Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday that sovereignty and a currency union were “incompatible”, and he is right—many of us have pointed that out for many years in relation to another currency. Be certain of this: this is not an opinion poll where you can change your mind the next day; it is not an election where you can reverse the result four or five years later; it is a permanent decision that will affect generations. Therefore, the votes cast next Thursday will probably be the most important votes that can be cast in any country at any time, and the voters must weigh that vote heavily.
Ms Harman
While jobs, pensions and taxes are important, next week’s decision, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, is about much, much more than that. For sure, there must be change. We must have that, and we will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay as family, not become foreigners to each other.
Mr Hague
The right hon. and learned Lady puts it extremely well. We all want the best for Scotland, just as we all want the best for our own constituents, from all parts of the UK, in this House. The people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland believe that Scotland is better off in the UK and the UK is better off with Scotland in it. This referendum is the most important choice the people of Scotland will ever make: a choice between the opportunity and security of staying in the UK, and leaving for ever, without the pound and without the UK’s influence in the world. With Scotland as part of the UK, we have the best possible situation and a great future together in the United Kingdom.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Since 2012, my right hon. Friend and I have been supporting the policy of the Government not to offer so-called devo-max as a consolation prize in the event of a no vote in the Scottish referendum. If this is no longer the policy of the Government, when and why did it change, and what opportunity has there been for this House to express its view?
Mr Hague
It has been the policy of the Government for some time to be open to further devolution—I gave examples of what we have done in Wales, for instance, during the lifetime of this Government. The statements by the party leaders made on this in the last few days are statements by party leaders in a campaign—not a statement of Government policy today, but a statement of commitment from the three main political parties, akin to statements by party leaders in a general election campaign of what they intend to do afterwards. It is on that basis that they have made those statements.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Q2. In 2012, the Chancellor set himself a target to double exports to £1 trillion by 2020. I wonder whether the Leader of the House would confirm that his Government are on course to miss that target by a massive £330 billion.
Mr Hague
Of course, nobody can claim to know what the figure will be in 2020, since we are only in 2014. A great deal of work has to be done, but we have greatly intensified the promotion of British exports. That is why I, in my time as Foreign Secretary, opened nearly 20 new embassies and consulates, including many that the Labour party closed when it was in power, and why we have revamped UK Trade & Investment. We have huge increases in exports to countries such as China, India and Brazil. Everybody, of all parties and businesses, must join in making a success of that by 2020.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Q3. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition are rightly campaigning today for the future of our Union. With Gatwick in my constituency, I see on a daily basis the strong family and business links between my local airport and Scottish airports. Does my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House agree with me that our great kingdom is better together as a united Britain? I say that as somebody with proud Scottish ancestry.
Mr Hague
Yes, I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. What he can see at Gatwick airport and what we all experience around other parts of England and Wales is a very good example of his point. In fact, two thirds of Scottish exports are exported to the rest of the United Kingdom—twice as much as to the rest of the world put together. Why would anyone choose to place an international border where those exports are going, and to do so unnecessarily? My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
The Leader of the House is, of course, right: next Thursday, the Scots go the polls to make what is undoubtedly the most historic, important and momentous decision we have ever had the privilege to consider. It is a process that has galvanised and energised every community in Scotland. Will the Leader of the House join me—I know we want different things from the outcome—in congratulating the Scottish people on the way they have gone around conducting this incredible debate?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman is right: it was a gentle understatement that we want different things from this process, but of course we applaud the people of Scotland for taking such an immense interest on all sides, and it is very important that there is a high turnout in any such referendum. I absolutely congratulate the people of Scotland, but I do not congratulate those such as the hon. Gentleman’s own party who have failed to be straight with the people of Scotland; who have never explained what money Scotland will use and what its value will be; who have never explained how long it would take to rejoin the European Union and on what terms; who have never explained how they would fund schools and hospitals when there would be a £6 billion black hole in their finances; and who have not explained that their threat not to pay debts would be disastrous for Scotland’s long-term future. They are passionate about Scotland and passionate about separation, but they are not passionate about telling the truth to the people of Scotland.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Q4. Embracing three centuries, the garrison town of Colchester has welcomed thousands of Scottish soldiers, many with their families. We wish that to continue. Does the Leader of the House agree with the Defence Select Committee that if Scotland ceased to be part of the UK—and we have the best armed forces in Europe—this would pose serious security and defence risks for a separate Scotland without the capacity to defend itself?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. He sees the participation, work and sacrifices of members of the armed forces from Scotland when they are deployed in Colchester, and I see that in Catterick garrison in my own constituency. He makes an important point about the security of us all, which is of course important for Scotland’s security as well. We have to bear it in mind that, for instance, Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde is the largest employment site in the whole of Scotland, and it is going to get bigger with the deployment of all our submarines there. Those things are put at risk by a campaign for separation, which also puts at risk the security of all of us.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
Q5. Last Thursday, I attended a public meeting at Beighton in my constituency, at which the doctors in the Beighton and Sothall practice were consulting their patients on how to deal with a budgetary cut of 22% to 24% by 2018. They have been officially notified of that cut by NHS England. Will the Leader of the House confirm that, if the Conservatives are in power after the general election, these are the cuts that my constituents can expect?
Mr Hague
I can confirm that this Government have raised the NHS budget in line with inflation, which the hon. Gentleman’s party was not committed to doing at the last general election. I know that the Secretary of State for Health will want to discuss with the hon. Gentleman the details of the local situation, but I hope he explained to those at the meeting that overall, since the last election, the number of nurses is up 3,700; the number of doctors is up 6,500; the number of people who say they are treated with dignity and respect is up 10%; and that we have now been ranked, according to the Commonwealth Fund, as the top health system in the world, moving from seventh in the world four years ago.
Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend applaud the initiative of Prince Harry in creating the Invictus games, and welcome all the participants to this country on our behalf?
Mr Hague
Absolutely. This is an extremely important continuation of the developing, immense and proud sporting history that we have in this country. We are now established again as one of the great sporting nations of the world, and we are also a country that thinks deeply about the welfare of service veterans. His Royal Highness Prince Harry has been one of the great champions of that, and we wish him, and everyone involved in the games, very well.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Q6. In 2012, the Prime Minister said that he wanted to see economic growth that would mean rising living standards for all. Can the Leader of the House tell us, then, why Britain has seen one of the largest falls in real wages among the European Union countries, beaten only by Cyprus, Portugal and Greece?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman may remember that there was a debt-fuelled, deep recession, which came about under the last Government. That, of course, has to be paid for, but now, after four years of the disciplined policies of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we have the fastest growth among the G7 economies, we have employment nearing a record high, and we have nearly 2 million new apprenticeships which have been started during this time. That is a remarkable economic turnaround from the catastrophic situation that we were left.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
Q7. Does the Leader of the House agree that Scottish independence is not about getting one over on Westminster, not about embarrassing the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition and not about defeating the “auld enemy”, but it is about Scotland turning its back on 300 years of successful union, and rejecting so much that this country has done to make us all so proud of being part of Great Britain?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is right. It is not about any individual or party or election; it is a far more long-term decision than that. In my experience all over the world, other nations regard the United Kingdom with admiration, and sometimes even with envy. If Scotland voted yes, people all over the world who share our values and count on our contribution to peace, stability and human rights would be disappointed, while those who do not share those priorities and beliefs would be quietly satisfied. That is another thing that we must all bear in mind.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
At the end of last month, my constituent Mr Krishna Upadhyaya was “disappeared” in Qatar. He had been arrested by the secret service there because he was investigating the human rights abuses of workers who were building the infrastructure for the 2022 World cup. I thank the Foreign Office for its help in securing his release, but what action will the right hon. Gentleman take to speak to the Qatar ambassador about the disgrace of his having been arrested in the first place, and about the treatment of those who are preparing those facilities?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman has raised an important case. He is right to say that the Foreign Office has pursued it and has achieved some success in doing so, as we will do in any parallel cases in the future. I know that the embassy and the Foreign Office will want to follow up these matters, but that is for my successor as Foreign Secretary to determine, so I will draw his attention to the hon. Gentleman’s question, and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Q8. Given mounting evidence of an innovative, vibrant and growing real economy, especially in manufacturing and engineering, does the First Secretary of State agree that Scotland should remain with us, first to share in the fruits of that success and secondly to give us a bigger footprint in global trade?
Mr Hague
Yes, I do. That is another very good point. The economic turnaround that has been brought about in the United Kingdom means that employment in Scotland is now at a record high. There have been seven consecutive quarters of economic growth in Scotland, and there are a quarter of a million more private sector jobs in Scotland than there were four years ago. That is a reminder of the potential if we continue to work together, and that is the message that I again repeat to the people of Scotland today.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Q9. I welcome suggestions that the Prime Minister will attend the crucial climate summit at the end of this month. Will the Leader of the House confirm that the Prime Minister will go, and will he tell us what bold new initiatives the Prime Minister will be taking with him, because that is what my constituents in Brighton say they want? They want to protect what they love—[Interruption.] They want urgent action on climate change.
Mr Speaker
Order. Can I just say for future reference that it is disorderly to display images in that way, and I say with all courtesy to the hon. Lady, whose principles and commitment I respect, that if everybody did that on every cause it would make a mockery of this place? I ask the hon. Lady to take a view much wider than her own immediate preoccupation.
Mr Hague
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister will attend the UN General Assembly later in September. We have not yet issued, or finally decided, his precise schedule, but of course we are looking at attendance at the meeting the hon. Lady refers to, and Britain will continue to play a leading role in the world in bringing about legally binding agreement on climate change. The next 15 months is a very important period, leading up to the meeting in Paris at the end of next year. We are one of the most active countries in the world in climate change diplomacy, and the Prime Minister and other Ministers in New York will be fully conveying that, whoever attends the meeting.
Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend explain to the House why, with the possibility of a yes vote, finance is leaving Scotland and many businesses are thinking of leaving Scotland? Surely if the economic arguments were so good for the yes campaign, the reverse would be happening?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. The anxieties of businesses are very clear to see. While we can understand people doubting the word of politicians about economic events, it is very important to listen to what businesses say they will do with their jobs, with their headquarters and with their investments, because a country that has separated itself from the fastest growing economy of the G7, that has put itself outside the European Union without thinking about the implications of doing that, and that has ended up with no central bank and unsure which currency to use, would of course find it difficult to attract new business to its shores.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Q10. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership leaves the health service vulnerable to some of the worst possible outcomes of this Government’s privatisation programme. Private investors will be able to haul the Government and devolved Administrations through the investor-state dispute settlement tribunal. In that respect, how can the Leader of the House guarantee that the health service, including the health services in the devolved Administrations, will be exempt from the TTIP?
Mr Hague
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has been dealing with these matters and has held a briefing about them, so I have no doubt we can furnish the hon. Lady with more details on these issues, but it is very important to maintain a commitment to free trade, which has been a characteristic of the United Kingdom over many centuries, and which has invariably brought greater prosperity to the people of the UK, as well as to people all over the rest of the world. The TTIP is another major opportunity to boost free trade across the world.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Q11. A vote next week in favour of an independent Scotland will have major, damaging implications for Wales. Does my right hon. Friend agree that my fellow Welsh citizens who care about the future of our Welsh nation should be hoping and praying for rejection of the break-up of the United Kingdom?
Mr Hague
Yes, absolutely, and I think they are. I regularly consult at least one Welsh citizen, and on the evidence of that the Welsh are very much hoping and praying that the UK will not be broken up. My hon. Friend, I know, speaks very well for his constituents in mid-Wales. All of us in the United Kingdom would be diminished by the break-up of the United Kingdom. We are something greater than the sum of our parts, and that is well understood across the UK. The impact on Wales would be unmistakable.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Patients Association has found that six in 10 people cannot get a GP appointment within two days of needing one. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why his party will not support Labour’s proposal to guarantee a GP appointment within 48 hours?
Mr Hague
Professionals in the health system have said that going back to that kind of target would be counter-productive. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the number of people treated by GPs has increased by many millions over the past four years, and that trend is continuing. Of course we are always trying to seek further improvements, but reintroducing the old, failed targets of the last Government is not the way forward.
Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)
Q12. When I travel abroad and I am asked where I come from, I am proud to say that I am British. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we can be proud to be British but still have our own identity of being English, Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland, and that we should all remain together and continue as Great Britons?
Mr Hague
I do not think anyone could have put it better. My hon. Friend definitely has his own identity, in so many different ways, and he has expressed it beautifully, including his identity with the United Kingdom. That is how so many of us think in Britain, and let us hope that it will be possible to continue to do so.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
May I support the visit of the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition to speak directly to the people of Scotland? My right hon. and hon. Friends and I, speaking on behalf of the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland, want the United Kingdom to stay together, and it is my hope that some of those who are crowing today might be disappointed after the referendum.
Mr Hague
That is certainly my hope as well. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has been able to make that point, because it means that in this short Question Time we have heard the very clear message from Members from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to the people of Scotland that we want them to stay.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
Q13. My parents will soon celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. My mother was born in Aberdeen, and my father in Cambridge. Is my right hon. Friend reassured that there will be no need for any senior politicians to come to their anniversary event, because my parents know in their heads and in their hearts that in their union, as in the other Union, they are happier and better together?
Mr Hague
I extend the congratulations of Her Majesty’s Government, and indeed of the whole House of Commons and all the political parties—even, perhaps, the Scottish National party on this occasion—to my hon. Friend’s parents. They are an example to us all, particularly after 60 years, and I hope that it is an example that will continue to be heeded and respected all over the UK.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Contrary to what has been said by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), this campaign has been fraught by fear and intimidation. It is somewhat ironic that the majority of the Scottish separatists have turned out for today’s Question Time, given that fewer than half of them turned out for our debate on an important element of welfare reform last Friday. That demonstrates that their priority is to come here to whinge rather than to debate.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
Q14. My Scottish pro-Union friends have reminded me that the middle east peace envoy and GQ philanthropist of the year award winner has reportedly said that he welcomes the publication of the Chilcot report. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House when we can expect that report to be published?
Mr Hague
I can tell my hon. Friend that the work continues, and that Sir John Chilcot has said that he intends to publish the report as soon as possible. I do not have a fixed date that I can give to my hon. Friend. I can only observe that, had that inquiry been set up when I and others first called for it and voted for it, back in 2006, it would have reported long ago. It was set up late, and it is therefore reporting late, but we look forward to it.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Q15. Is it acceptable for young people to be fed takeaway pizza at lunchtime because the Government have failed to prepare schools properly for the introduction of free nutritious meals?
Mr Hague
To put that into perspective, I think the latest figure is that 98.5% of schools are now providing a hot meal to infants as they were intended to do, and it is going up all the time. There are, of course, Government funds to help schools that need new facilities to do that, so I think it would be right to welcome the entirety of the picture, rather than try to find fault with one small aspect of it.
Bills Presented
Mobile Phones and Other Devices Capable of Connection to the Internet (Distribution of Sexually Explicit Images and Manufacturers’ Anti-Pornography Default Setting) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Geraint Davies, supported by Jessica Morden, Mrs Siân C. James, Chris Evans, Mr Mark Williams and Nia Griffith, presented a Bill to prohibit the distribution of sexually explicit images via the internet and text message without the consent of the subjects of the images; to provide that mobile phones and other devices capable of connection to the internet be set by manufacturers as a default to deny access to pornography; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 7 November, and to be printed (Bill 92).
House of Commons Members’ Fund Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Lilley, supported by Mr Clive Betts, Mr Brian H. Donohoe, David Mowat and John Thurso, presented a Bill to consolidate and amend provisions about the House of Commons Members’ Fund.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 October, and to be printed (Bill 91).
Dualling of the A45
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The first petition I want to present concerns a major improvement to the A45 in my constituency and the Chowns Mill roundabout. The petition is a result of the efforts of Dudley Hughes, who suggested the idea of a listening campaign, which was very ably led by Tom Pursglove, who is the Conservative parliamentary candidate for Corby.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Rushden and East Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas,
Sheweth,
That the Petitioners believe that the heavy traffic congestion on the A45 between Stanwick and the A14 at the Chowns Mill Roundabout is unacceptable because there are numerous accidents which result in serious injury and loss of life and further that the Petitioners believe that the main A road delays between the M1 and the A14 cause economic damage to the local and regional economy.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Department for Transport to encourage Northamptonshire County Council and East Northamptonshire District Council to work together to ensure, as a matter of urgency, that the A45 is dualled between Stanwick and the A14 and that significant improvements are made to the Chowns Mill Roundabout including grade separation.
And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001386]
Proposed Closure of Glamis Hall (Wellingborough)
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Bone
I am grateful to have been given the opportunity to present another petition. I am afraid that this petition is so heavy that I am unable physically to present it myself. It has been signed by 10,119 petitioners and represents a very controversial matter in my constituency. I am very pleased to say that both parties on the borough council of Wellingborough have decided to re-engage with the issue and look at it again.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas,
Sheweth,
That the Petitioners believe that the proposed closure of Glamis Hall in Wellingborough is unacceptable because there are no other day care facilities for the elderly in Wellingborough; further that the Petitioners believe that for many of the 180 elderly people who attend the day centre it is their only opportunity to socialise, and provides an excellent service, including transport to/from the centre, bathing, podiatry and hair dressing services; and further that the Petitioners believe that it provides a social atmosphere for some of our most vulnerable people, as well as providing recreation bookings and sports changing rooms in the evenings and weekends.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Department for Communities and Local Government to encourage Northamptonshire County Council and the Borough Council of Wellingborough to work together to ensure Glamis Hall is kept open until the end of November 2015, while working with the community in the interim period to find a permanent solution which is satisfactory to all.
And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001385]
Specialist Printing Equipment and Materials (Offences)
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for an offence in respect of specialist printing equipment and related materials; and for connected purposes.
This Bill is an important step in tackling identity crime. Such crime enables criminals at all levels, from opportunistic criminals to those involved in immigration offences, serious organised crime and terrorism, to hide their tracks and evade detection.
Everybody knows someone who has been a victim of identity crime in one form or another, and we are all at risk of becoming victims. Indeed, figures published by the National Fraud Authority last year show that almost a third of UK adults have been a victim of such crime at some point. Of the 4.3 million people who were victims in 2012, 2.7 million actually lost money, with an average of £1,200 lost by each person. For the most vulnerable members of our society the damage caused goes much further than the loss of money. The NFA also estimates that 27% of UK adults have been a victim of such fraud. None of us is immune from this crime; Jeremy Clarkson, Oprah Winfrey and Steven Spielberg have all reportedly been victims.
As criminals seek to stay ahead of the game by obtaining the latest specialist technology to make false documents, they rely on members of the specialist printing industry to supply it to them. They obtain it either by tricking suppliers into thinking they will use the equipment for a legitimate purpose or by looking for someone to collude with them. The industry is aware of elements within it that knowingly supply equipment or materials to these criminals, for criminal purposes, believing that they are beyond the reach of the law. The Bill sends the message that they are as bad as the criminals themselves. It closes a very sad gap in the law and will support our police in their work. By supplying this equipment to persons who will use it to commit crime, these elements enable some of the most serious crimes that affect our country and the safety of our people to happen.
The police have numerous recent examples of illegal document factories being uncovered. The documents found include passports, driving licences, birth certificates, immigration documents, European Union identity cards and national insurance number cards—the list goes on. In none of these cases has the police been able to prosecute anyone who has supplied the specialist equipment to the criminals, even when there was evidence that they knew what the equipment would be used for. That is why the Bill is urgently needed. The industry and the Metropolitan Police Service set up Project Genesis in 2007 and identified the need for this new criminal offence. Wider consultation on the proposal with the industry shows that there continues to be strong support for it. The vast majority of the industry is made up of decent, hard-working people who believe that those who knowingly supply equipment to criminals are bringing their industry into disrepute.
The industry mainly consists of small micro-businesses, which can suffer significant losses themselves when they are targeted by fraudsters. Criminals who make false documents often try to dupe businesses into supplying this specialist equipment to them and often pay with stolen credit cards resulting in a loss to the supplier. One company reported losing £10,000 worth of equipment because fraudsters conned it by using what appeared to be genuine credentials. By implementing the measures in the code of conduct agreed by Project Genesis, that business was able to protect itself from becoming the victim of payment fraud again as it was better able to spot suspicious behaviour. The measures include simple indicators such as checking that the delivery address is the same as the address on a company’s website, so that a fraudster is identified if they pretend to represent a legitimate company.
The Bill covers the manufacture of documents that can be used for identity purposes, including passports and immigration documents; travel documents, including driving licences and blue badges; security passes; national insurance number cards; currency; credit cards; and birth, death and marriage certificates. Those are documents that provide the holder with access to various services and benefits across both the public and private sectors. In the wrong hands, false versions of those documents can cause untold damage, including enabling illegal immigrants to merge into our society and fraudulently access public services to which they are not entitled. Crime committed through the use of false documents can have a serious impact on businesses, particularly small businesses, which can seriously impact on the economy. The Bill provides a simple and targeted measure to deal with this serious problem.
The geographical extent of the Bill will be for England and Wales. The Home Office is working with the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the Crown dependencies on these measures and has committed to keep them informed of progress. False document factories are a cross-border problem, so the Bill will apply to supply for the purpose of criminal activity occurring in any jurisdiction. If a supplier in England and Wales sells equipment to an identity fraudster knowing that they will use it to manufacture false documents, they will be prosecuted, whether the manufacture itself happens in England, Scotland, France, or even Australia.
The Metropolitan Police Service has examples of raids on false document factories where documents relating to thousands of false identities have been found. But in none of those raids have they been able to prosecute those at the beginning of the chain who supplied the goods to the fraudsters, even though the suppliers knew that those would be used to make false documents.
The Bill will empower the police to deal effectively with those who seek to profit from criminal activity without regard to the consequences of identity crime. I commend the measure to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Mr David Amess, Mr Brian Binley, Fiona Bruce, Rosie Cooper, Mr Roger Godsiff, Sir Edward Leigh, Dr Julian Lewis, Mr David Nuttall, Sir Bob Russell, Dame Angela Watkinson, Mike Weatherley and Mr Mark Williams present the Bill.
Mr David Amess accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 September, and to be printed (Bill 93).
Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa and Security
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
Before I ask the Foreign Secretary to open the debate, I simply point out to the House that more than 50 right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak from the Back Benches. In determining a time limit for Back-Bench contributions, I shall obviously be guided by the length of the Front-Bench speeches, which I feel sure the speakers, with their usual tact and discretion, will tailor in order to take account of the interests of their Back-Bench colleagues.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa and security.
This summer has seen a range and scale of threats to international, and particularly European, stability. If they are not unprecedented, they certainly represent a highly unwelcome escalation from the post-cold war norm. Alongside them, there has been a sharp escalation in the level of homeland security threat. The Prime Minister has made two statements in the past nine days covering those, but the Government believe it is right and proper that Parliament has a fuller opportunity to debate those events, and that the Government have the opportunity to take the pulse of parliamentary opinion on Britain’s response to the challenges we face.
In Syria and Iraq, the advance of the barbaric Islamist terrorist organisation Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant represents not only a severe threat to the stability of the middle east but, through the presence of foreign fighters, some of them British, and the threat of a terror attack against the west, a threat to British national security. In the wider middle east, the recent eruption of violence in Gaza between Israel and Hamas, and the tragic loss of many hundreds of civilian lives, has underlined the need for a lasting settlement to that decades-long source of conflict and human suffering. In eastern Ukraine, the instability and violence fuelled initially by covert Russian sponsorship of illegal armed separatists, and more recently by the active operation of formed military units of the Russian armed forces on sovereign Ukraine territory, have underlined Russia’s rejection of the rules-based international order. In Libya, there has been a sharp deterioration of the security situation. Those multiple challenges reflect an arc of instability, extending from north Africa, through the middle east and along Europe’s eastern border to the Arctic.
Perhaps the most alarming of those developments, because of the clear and immediate risk it poses to UK homeland security, is the rise of the Islamist terror organisation ISIL in Syria and Iraq. In Syria, Assad’s brutal war against his own people has created the conditions for a Sunni extremist group to flourish, and in Iraq, the systematic sectarianism of the previous Government has created a permissive environment in the Sunni heartlands for ISIL to expand. In both countries, ISIL has seized the opportunity to impose its twisted ideology.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that supporting air strikes in Syria is a higher-risk strategy than supporting air strikes in Iraq?
Mr Hammond
I agree with my hon. Friend. There is a qualitative difference between any proposition of air strikes in Syria and such an activity in Iraq. The legal, technical and military differences make the proposition of air strikes an order of magnitude more complicated in Syria.
Mark Pritchard
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. On the specifics of air strikes, the House will rise this week and not return until 13 October. If there were to be another atrocity in Iraq, is he comfortable with authorising, with the Prime Minister, air strikes if the House has not had a vote?
Mr Hammond
If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will come specifically to the question of air strikes and their authorisation later in my speech.
Mr Hammond
I will take one more intervention and then I must make some progress.
Ms Gisela Stuart
Will the Foreign Secretary elaborate on the military differences, as he said that there were quantitative differences between Syria and Iraq? We are talking about a process. What are the air strikes meant to achieve? Would they achieve something different in Iraq from in Syria, or are we taking this the wrong way round?
Mr Hammond
When I talked about a military difference between Iraq and Syria, I was referring to the different air defence systems that protect the territory in those two countries. In Iraq, the skies are open over ISIL-controlled territory, whereas in Syria a sophisticated integrated air defence system protects the whole of the country’s airspace and would make air strikes complex and difficult to deliver.
Mr Hammond
In view of Mr Speaker’s strictures, I must make some progress. I will allow the hon. Lady to intervene later.
Having established a heartland in Syria and advanced into northern Iraq, ISIL is seeking to extend its reach with the openly stated objective of building a so-called caliphate embracing all the Muslim populations of the region in a single fundamentalist state that would subject its population to a brutal and barbaric regime while waging perpetual war against the infidel beyond the caliphate’s boundaries. This is a dangerous force that if left unchecked could transform swathes of the middle east into a haven for international terrorism.
ISIL’s barbaric acts in the areas it controls have included targeted killings, forced religious conversions, abductions, trafficking, slavery and systematic sexual abuse on the basis of ethnicity and religion. It has forced hundreds of thousands of Iraqis of all communities—Shi’a, Sunni, Christian, Yazidi—to flee their homes in fear as its forces abuse, brutalise and kill anyone who stands in the way of their advance. Their actions and poisonous ideology are not only abhorrent to our values and principles and, indeed, to the values and principles of all decent people, including the overwhelming majority of Muslims, but represent a direct threat to Britain’s national security.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
There are rumours that the Turks are buying oil from ISIS. Is it not important that members of NATO speak with one voice and is it not an absolute priority for the international community to try to interdict the financial support that ISIS is gaining through illegal oil sales?
Mr Hammond
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that has been precisely the thrust of a British initiative at the United Nations to cut off financial and other lines of support to ISIL. We will continue to pursue that route.
Mrs Moon
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his confirmation that we are using the United Nations to point out the importance of cutting off financial support to ISIL. Is he talking to Governments around the world and ensuring that the Treasury is equally engaged in ensuring that messages go out to banking systems and individuals that it is not a good thing to channel funds to ISIL and that, if they are not cut off now, these murderous individuals will come into their countries?
Mr Hammond
Yes, we are delivering that message and our partners around the world are active. We have seen action over the past few days in many countries, with people providing support networks to ISIL being disrupted, arrests being made and so on.
In seeking to establish its extremist state, ISIL is already seeking to use the territory it controls as a launch pad from which to attack the west, including the United Kingdom. The unprovoked attack on the Jewish museum in Brussels, the brutal beheadings of American journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff and the explicit threat to the life of a British hostage have made it clear that ISIL will not hesitate to attack western citizens wherever it has the opportunity to do so. As the House will know, our intelligence agencies estimate that more than 500 British nationals have travelled abroad to fight in Syria and Iraq for extremist groups, particularly ISIL. On the face of it, one of those individuals, nominally British although sharing none of our values, was responsible for the beheading of the American journalists. The potential return to the shores of hundreds of these radicalised jihadis, some of whom will have undergone training in the conduct of terrorist atrocities, represents one of the most serious threats to our national security and was directly responsible for the decision to raise the threat level for international terrorism from substantial to severe.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr Hammond
If I may, I will make a little progress.
Our response to that threat is and will remain measured, deliberate and comprehensive. At home, our police and security agencies are hard at work tackling the threat from returning jihadis and intercepting those intent on travelling abroad to join ISIL. Since April 2013, 23 people have had their passport removed and so far this year 69 people have been arrested for terror-related offences in relation to Syria and Iraq.
As the Prime Minister set out last week, we are now urgently considering what more we can do in the face of this unprecedented terrorist threat. Among the measures being actively considered by the Government are strengthening the existing terrorism prevention and investigation measures, including through stronger location constraints on suspects and a requirement on individuals to engage with the Prevent programme; putting the Channel de-radicalisation programme on a statutory footing; introducing temporary powers for police to seize passports at the border while suspected foreign fighters are investigated; creating a discretionary power to exclude British nationals from the UK; and putting on a statutory basis aviation security measures, including no-fly lists and the sharing of passenger information. As the Government crystallise our proposals, the House will have the opportunity to debate them in detail.
Strengthening our defences at home and tackling the movement of foreign fighters are just part of the answer. We must also tackle these threats at source, so we are responding to the urgent humanitarian situation in the region, alleviating suffering in northern and eastern Iraq and helping to ease the growing burden on the neighbouring states that has the potential to create even greater instability. Since the crisis in Syria began, we have committed more than £600 million in humanitarian aid. In northern Iraq, Britain was the first donor country on the ground, but we are clear that alongside the immediate humanitarian response there must also be a coherent political response to delegitimise ISIL, cut off its sources of financial support and create the conditions under which local forces can regroup and tackle ISIL head on.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
On that specific point, will the Foreign Secretary confirm what support is being given to Kurdish peshmerga fighters?
Mr Hammond
The UK has already supplied non-lethal aid to the peshmerga. We have transported ammunition from eastern Europe for the Soviet-era weapons that the peshmerga have. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary laid a departmental minute before the House announcing the initial gifting of lethal aid to the peshmerga in the form of a supply of heavy machine guns, which should be delivered with the accompanying ammunition to Irbil today.
Mr Burrowes
The Prime Minister said that if there was further evidence of a direct national threat and human catastrophe, that would warrant further military action. The Foreign Secretary has spoken about coming back before the House if further action is needed, but have we not reached the threshold at which there is evidence of both a direct national threat and human catastrophe, in terms of the genocide of Yazidis, Christians and others?
Mr Hammond
The point the Prime Minister was making was that we must reserve our right to intervene at very short notice if an imminent humanitarian catastrophe threatens, but we are also considering the longer-term proposition of how, in coalition with international partners, we can best rise to the challenge presented by ISIL. If my hon. Friend will allow me to continue, I shall say something about that now.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr Hammond
I must make some progress.
In Syria, we continue to support a negotiated political transition to end Assad’s brutal rule and pave the way to a political solution to this appalling conflict. To those who ask whether we should make common cause with Assad against the new enemy, ISIL, I say that Assad cannot be the answer to defeating extremism. Working with this butcher would only reinforce the appeal of ISIL and feed radicalisation at home. By contrast, therefore, we are strengthening our support for the moderate opposition, who share our values of respect for human rights, the rule of law and inclusive politics. They deserve our admiration as they take the fight to the extremist terrorists in their country as well as taking on regime forces.
In Iraq, we have strongly welcomed the formation of the new Government under Dr Haider al-Abadi. To be successful in turning the tide against ISIL, that Government must now win the confidence of all Iraq’s communities by turning into deeds the words of the new Prime Minister’s published programme for inclusive Government.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Foreign Secretary accept my apologies for turning up to the debate slightly late? Does he accept that the new Government of Iraq now have to show that they are doing this, and that if they cannot, it will be time for the UK and its neighbours to reconsider what the political structure of Iraq can be to create stability in the region?
Mr Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We are clear that ISIL is a threat to us as well as to stability in the region. But we are equally clear that we can contribute to defeating ISIL only through the leadership of the Iraqi Government in Baghdad, and they have to be an Iraqi Government who are credible, inclusive, and command the respect and support of all the people of Iraq. A huge burden therefore rests on the shoulders of Dr al-Abadi as he embarks on this mission with his new Government. We wish him well and will offer him every practical support we can.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
On Syria, surely the position must be that, rather than leave Assad out of the process altogether, we should restart the Geneva process in order that there can be a proper deal between our allies in the Free Syrian Army and the Assad Government. They can then be on our side in taking on the fundamental enemy, which is of course Islamic State. That process can engage the Russians as well, but if they are left outside this exercise we are dooming it to failure from the start.
Mr Hammond
Those around the Assad regime understand very well what they have to do to make progress: they have to remove Assad from his leadership role and replace him in order that we and the moderate opposition in Syria have someone credible that they can talk to.
Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
As we have now moved to the welcome state whereby we are providing more than just assistance to the Kurds, would it not now be sensible to do the same thing for the Free Syrian Army, who have themselves been fighting ISIS for over a year?
Mr Hammond
Our decision at the moment is that we will continue to supply non-lethal aid to the Syrian moderate opposition. Of course, we keep that decision under continuous review. As I said earlier, the situation in Syria is very different from the situation in Iraq. While ISIL is seeking to make it a single theatre, we have to respond to the realities on the ground in both countries.
These are vital steps, but the Prime Minister has made it clear that the political and humanitarian response in Iraq must be backed up by a security response that will defeat ISIL on the ground. The Government’s clear position is that there will be no UK combat boots on the ground in Iraq, but we have given our full support to the targeted air strikes conducted by the United States at the request of the legitimate Government of Iraq. With other NATO allies, and with the consent of the Iraqi Government, we have been delivering arms and equipment directly to Kurdish forces, as I have set out.
I know that many right hon. and hon. Members will, crucially, want to know whether we intend to go further in our security response. As the House will know, Secretary Kerry is currently in the middle east seeking to build a regional coalition of the willing to support Iraqi forces in the battle against ISIL—an organisation which, by definition, represents an existential challenge to all of them. President Obama will speak to the American people later today to set out his wider strategy for dealing with the threat from ISIL, including a possible expansion of US air strikes.
As the global resolve to tackle ISIL strengthens, we will consider carefully what role the UK should play in the international coalition. I should emphasise that no decisions have been made. However, as the Prime Minister set out on Monday, if we reached the conclusion that joining in American-led air strikes would be the appropriate way to shoulder our share of the burden, then, in accordance with the established practice, we would ensure that the House of Commons had an opportunity to debate and vote on that proposition.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to his answer to the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) about the position of the Assad regime? The whole House shares his view that this is an odious regime, but surely what has changed is that two years ago it was rational to assess that the Assad regime could be removed. Is that still his view?
Mr Hammond
Our clear intention is to create the conditions where within the Alawite community and the community around the regime, the pressure builds to change the leadership—to remove Assad and those closely associated with him and replace them so that it is possible for the moderate opposition forces and the international community to envisage a political solution in Syria.
We are facing in our near abroad the most capable terrorist group currently operating anywhere in the world. We cannot underestimate the threat that it poses to regional stability and to our security here at home, and we must be prepared to intensify our contribution to action against ISIL if the situation demands.
Rehman Chishti
In relation to ISIL and the foreign fighters, the Secretary of State will have seen reports from King’s College London, which engaged with some of these fighters in Syria and Iraq. It reports that some foreign fighters want to renounce terrorism and return to their countries of origin. Does the United Kingdom have a position on that, and was it discussed with other NATO members so that there is a combined position?
Mr Hammond
I too read the reports that my hon. Friend mentions. Clearly, those who have committed terrorist acts must be held accountable for their actions; there can be no general amnesty. Obviously, the Home Secretary will want to look carefully at the situation that we are facing. I suggest that she will have noted what he said and might be able to respond further when she winds up the debate.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
Rory Stewart
As I understand it, the Foreign Secretary is saying that our policy is dependent on having a credible, inclusive Government in Baghdad. On what criteria will the Foreign Office assess that Government? What does he make of the appointment of Ibrahim al-Jafari? What about the Interior Ministry? What about the Defence Ministry? What about the position of Qasem Soleimani, the Iranian revolutionary guard commander, in Baghdad? What possible reason do we have at the moment to believe that this Government are inclusive?
Mr Hammond
I recognise my hon. Friend’s gentle scepticism, shall I call it? Many figures within the newly announced Government are not new faces. However, the programme set out by Dr al-Abadi does represent, on the face of it, an approach that is far more inclusive and far more willing to recognise the aspirations of the separate communities within Iraq than that of the previous Iraqi Government. Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We will be looking at this very closely and providing every support we can. We and other allies will be applying all pressure that we can on the Iraqi Government to pursue diligently the course that they have set out in that programme, and we very much hope they will deliver on those commitments.
Mr Hammond
I must make some progress now because we have a wide range of issues to cover.
While we have been facing an ideological challenge to our fundamental system of values from ISIL in Iraq and Syria, we have also faced a fundamental challenge to the post-cold war system of international relations in Europe.
For more than two decades since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the west has opened a door to Russia and sought to draw her into the international rules-based system, offering partnership, trade, investment and openness. By its illegal annexation of Crimea and its aggressive destabilisation of eastern Ukraine, the Russian leadership has slammed that door shut. It has chosen the role of pariah rather than partner, and in doing so it has undermined the long-term security architecture of Europe.
The tactics that President Putin has adopted—from covert disruption to the first deployment of deniable irregulars and unbadged Russian military personnel to capture sites in Crimea, through to the transfer of heavy weapons and equipment to Ukrainian separatists in Luhansk and Donetsk, and now, more recently, the deployment of formed Russian military units on to Ukrainian soil—reflect a pattern that we have seen elsewhere. However much it is denied, Russia’s direct responsibility for the situation in eastern Ukraine is undeniable.
On 17 July, the irresponsibility of Russia’s behaviour reached its terrible apotheosis, with the shooting down, from separatist-controlled territory with a Russian ground-to-air missile, of flight MH17, with the loss of 298 totally innocent lives. Their blood is on the hands of Russia’s leaders.
The Government, together with our international partners, have been clear from the start: whatever the provocation, there can be no purely military solution to this crisis. The solution must be political, based on negotiations between Moscow and Kiev but upholding the fundamental principles of respect for Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity and of the right of the Ukrainian people to decide their own future. There can be no Russian veto on democracy in Ukraine.
The international community has a clear role to play by exerting the greatest possible pressure on Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukrainian soil, cease its support for the separatists and enable the restoration of security along the Ukraine-Russia border with effective international monitoring.
Russia has used asymmetric warfare to further its ends, exploiting the relative advantages of its ability to act quickly, decisively and without transparency. We must respond to that by using our relative advantages, most notably the enormously greater strength and resilience of our economies compared with Russia’s, with its terrible demography and its structural over-dependence on oil and gas exports.
The UK has been at the forefront of efforts to leverage that economic strength through the imposing of far-reaching economic sanctions. As the Prime Minister announced to the House on Monday, the latest European Union sanctions, building on the previous measures, will make it harder for Russian banks and energy and defence companies to borrow money; prohibit the provision of services for the exploration of shale, deep water and Arctic oil; and widen the ban on dual-use goods such as machinery and computer equipment. Additionally, a new list of individuals to be included on sanctions lists has been agreed, including the new separatist leadership in Donbass, the Government of Crimea and key Russian decision makers and oligarchs.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
The situation in Ukraine has caused considerable consternation and concern among our eastern European NATO partners. I am sure that during his speech my right hon. Friend will reaffirm our commitments to them under our NATO obligations, but what is he doing specifically to encourage NATO partners such as Lithuania which are spending less than half the prerequisite 2% of GDP that they ought to be in these circumstances?
Mr Hammond
I will come in a moment to the measures we are taking to support eastern partners, but my hon. Friend will know that Lithuania, along with all the other 27 NATO members, signed up to the defence spending commitment at last week’s NATO summit. That was a huge triumph for British diplomacy.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Foreign Secretary believe that a man who spent 16 years rising to the top of the KGB and who is currently the President of Russia will be deterred by economic sanctions when it is clear that Russia has territorial ambitions, as we have seen elsewhere in Europe?
Mr Hammond
These sanctions are having an effect: they are exacerbating an already negative trend in Russia’s economy. Russia’s economy shrank by 0.5% in the first quarter of this year. Its largest bank has downgraded forecasts of growth from 2.3% to 0.2%. Russian sovereign bonds have been downgraded to one notch above junk bond status, and capital flight is continuing, with an estimate that it could reach £80 billion. Although I understand absolutely the hon. Gentleman’s question and his attempt, quite rightly, to analyse the emotional side of Mr Putin’s approach, he will not be able to be blind to the impact these sanctions are having on Russia’s economy.
We have also supported NATO measures to reassure our eastern allies who feel most exposed to Russian pressure, including through the provision of RAF jets to undertake an air policing role in the Baltic area. We are clear about the collective security guarantee that NATO offers to our eastern NATO partners, and Mr Putin should be clear about that, too.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
If Mr Putin were to deploy in the Baltic states the same asymmetric and deniable tactics he has used in Ukraine, would that constitute an article 5 moment under the NATO treaty?
Mr Hammond
The engagement of article 5, which eastern partners would, of course, be perfectly entitled to seek if they felt they were subject to threats, can elicit a response at various different levels. It does not have to involve full-scale armed conflict. The response would have to be proportionate. Although this is in its infancy, there is growing recognition that, in a much more complicated world in which cyber-warfare will have a very large role to play in any future conflict, we need to work out how we would respond proportionately and effectively to any given type of attack.
Mr Hammond
I must make a little more progress.
We welcome the ceasefire that has been announced between Russia and Ukraine, but, as we agreed with President Poroshenko and key allies at the NATO summit, there must be a proper peace plan that ensures that Russia respects Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereign rights—and it has to be delivered, not just written down. Our position remains that flagrant violation of international norms and law will bring long-term costs for Russia, its economy and its standing in the world.
Understandably, the ISIL challenge and the situation in Ukraine have dominated the agenda for the past few weeks, but we are also confronted by a sharp deterioration in the situation in Libya, as rival factions battle for control of Tripoli and the disparate groupings that have been a feature of the violence in Libya have started to coalesce into two main groups. The deterioration of the security situation has required the evacuation of hundreds of British nationals and the relocation of our embassy and staff to Tunis. I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Royal Navy for its excellent work in extracting British nationals to Malta, and to thank publicly the Republic of Korea, which evacuated 47 British nationals on a Korean warship that was in the area.
Finally, I want to turn to the perennial problem of Israel, Gaza and the middle east peace process. Ending the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians and seeing a responsible, viable and independent Palestinian state that respects the rights and security concerns of Israel taking its place among the family of nations would be a major step towards restoring stability throughout the region.
Throughout the summer, in my meetings and phone calls with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Abbas, President al-Sisi and others, I have supported the Egyptian-led talks in Cairo as being the best way to bring a rapid end to the violence, and we warmly welcome the agreement that was reached in Cairo on 26 August, which has, at last, led to a ceasefire that has held. It is now vital that negotiations resume and rapidly agree some practical, deliverable and confidence-building first steps to improve the situation for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza at the same time as reassuring Israel that there will be no further rocket fire against Israeli civilians and no rebuilding of military infrastructure inside Gaza.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that President Abbas now deserves the opportunity to demonstrate to the Palestinian people that the peaceful path towards statehood, not just the rockets of Hamas, can bring dividends? He needs the opportunity, through diplomatic support, to make the same kind of progress that, unfortunately, Hamas can now demonstrate that it has made in having the blockade on Gaza modified.
Mr Hammond
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I shall come to the point about the involvement of the Palestinian Authority in a moment.
The steps we need to take must include measures that will pave the way for the Palestinian Authority to resume control of Gaza and restore effective and accountable governance, which will allow the progressive easing of Israeli security restrictions on Gaza and, in turn, allow the Gazan economy to grow.
Both the Prime Minister and I have expressed our grave concern at the level of civilian casualties and the scale of human suffering in Gaza during the recent violence, but we have also been clear that the indiscriminate firing of thousands of rockets from Gaza into civilian areas of Israel by Hamas was a clear breach of international humanitarian law, and that by launching attacks from densely populated civilian areas—in some cases, from sensitive buildings, such as mosques and schools—Hamas bears a direct responsibility for the appalling loss of civilian lives. We have been equally clear that Israel has a right to defend itself against attack, but that in doing so it, too, must act in accordance with international law with regard to proportionality and the avoidance of unnecessary civilian casualties.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
In the light of what the Foreign Secretary has just said, will he please explain why the British Government abstained at the United Nations Human Rights Council on its official call for an investigation into war crimes that have occurred there? Could he not express some regret about Britain’s close military relationship with Israel, which has indeed helped it to kill more than 2,000 people in Gaza during the recent siege?
Mr Hammond
The hon. Gentleman’s last allegation is regrettable and completely inaccurate. We have looked very carefully at the nature of the matériel and equipment supplied to the Israelis, and we are confident that very little of what we supplied could in any way have been used in equipment deployed during this operation in Gaza.
On the hon. Gentleman’s first point, we chose to abstain on the resolution, along with all our European Union partners, because it was not worded in an even-handed and open way. It was not aimed at getting to the truth of what happened in Gaza, and it was not targeted at possible wrongdoing by both sides. It was heavily lopsided, and made a political point, rather than seeking to get to the bottom of what actually took place. I would, however, say to him that we are clear that, in due course, there must be a proper inquiry into what went on. I shall return to that in a moment.
Mr Hammond
I will give way again in a moment, but let me conclude this point.
In due course, a resolution of the immediately pressing issues in Gaza and a resumption of Palestinian Authority control in the strip must be steps towards the wider middle east peace process leading to a two-state solution. However, for the negotiations to have the best possible chance of success, both sides need to resist domestic pressures to take actions that could jeopardise the prospects of long-term peace. That is why we deplore the Israeli Government’s provocative decision to expropriate 988 acres of land near Bethlehem. We have unequivocally condemned that move, and we will continue to press the Government of Israel to reverse that decision. The UK’s position on settlements is clear: they are illegal under international law; they present an obstacle to peace; and they take us further away from a viable two-state solution.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I am very pleased to hear the Foreign Secretary condemn the Israeli action, but does he still not see that from the outside it looks as if the British Government are guilty of double standards? When Israel makes a land grab of this type, yes we have some harsh words, but nothing else follows; if Putin does something in Ukraine, things follow much more dramatically. I do not want to see such things, but I do want to see an end to double standards.
Mr Hammond
I think that the hon. Lady is being a little harsh. The reality is that in the Israel-Palestine conflict, we have a deeply entrenched and largely intractable challenge, which has defeated many people who have tried to solve it over many years. We have to make progress on this issue, but we are not going to make it by wagging fingers; we have to make it by engagement. The situation in Ukraine is different, with a clear violation of the hitherto well-observed principle of international law that we do not resolve border disputes in Europe by force of arms. The fact that Russia has breached that principle has put at risk the whole edifice of European security that has served us so well for many years.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Foreign Secretary be slightly clearer about what he sees as the consequences for Israel of not stopping the progress of settlements?
Mr Hammond
I have been very forward-leaning in saying to my Israeli interlocutors—not only about the policy of settlements, but about the scale of the civilian casualties that occurred in Gaza—that whatever the rights and wrongs and whatever the position in international law when the analysis is done, Israel runs a serious risk of losing the sympathy for it that existed when it came under attack by Hamas rockets earlier this summer. Israel needs to think about its long-term best interests, not just about the short-term reactions that it can deliver. I started this section of my speech by saying that if we are to make progress, both sides need to resist the temptation to react to short-term provocations and to play to domestic audiences. Both sides need to think about the long-term best interests of both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people.
Mr Hammond
I am coming to the end of my speech, and I know that many hon. Members want to participate in the debate.
The stability of the international order is at risk. Our values and principles—freedom, democracy and the rule of law—are coming under sustained attack, and our homeland security is under threat. Our resolve to meet these multiple challenges is being put to the test. The Government are clear that we cannot shirk our responsibilities in the world. If violations of international norms are allowed to go unchallenged and the spread of terrorist organisations with violent and extremist ideologies is allowed to go unchecked, the future prospects for our own national security and that of the friends and partners who share our values will only get worse.
In standing up to Russian aggression, we must continue to send the clear message to President Putin that his behaviour will not be tolerated, and that the end result will be a weaker, not a stronger Russia. In tackling the terrorist threat from ISIL and in supporting the newly formed Government of Iraq, we must be prepared to use all the means at our disposal to reverse ISIL’s advance, to deny its objectives and to defend ourselves at home. In supporting the resolution of the conflict between Israel and Hamas and ultimately the advance of the middle east peace process, we must be clear with both sides that only a negotiated political settlement can deliver the security guarantees that Israel needs and the viable state that the Palestinian people deserve.
In the face of these multiple threats to our security and our interests, I have no doubt that the British people will rise to the challenge and show the resolve, the courage and the determination that have defined our nation for hundreds of years.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I thank the Foreign Secretary for the remarks with which he opened the debate. This is our first exchange on the Floor of the House since his appointment, so may I take this opportunity to warmly welcome him and the Secretary of State for Defence to their vital roles for our country? The Foreign Secretary comes to the post to help us navigate a time of very real risks and rising uncertainties for the United Kingdom. In these difficult times, I know that the whole House will wish him well in carrying out his duties in the months ahead.
The Foreign Secretary will be aware that Members from all parts of the House have been calling on the Government to grant a full day’s debate on foreign affairs. I welcome the opportunity to discuss Ukraine, the middle east, north Africa and security today. This debate undoubtedly takes place at a time of significant global upheaval and significant challenge for the United Kingdom. The conflicts in the middle east and north Africa, the threat of ISIL, the destabilisation of eastern Europe by Russia and the new challenges facing NATO have created a palpable anxiety that the future may be less certain than many in the west had previously anticipated.
Given the scale and the pace of change, any Government must seek to approach the challenges with appropriate humility. However, as I and others across the House have argued, that must not give way to passivity in international affairs. For Britain to retreat from the world would be as foolish as it would be futile. Growing interdependence and the rise of cross-border threats mean that co-operating and collaborating with international partners is more vital in promoting our national interests than ever before. Today, the alliances that have helped to keep half a century of peace in Europe—the transatlantic bond, NATO and our co-operation with EU allies—are essential to Britain’s security and prosperity, perhaps more so than for many years.
Nowhere is that more evident than in the middle east. That region is experiencing some of the darkest days of its tumultuous and violent history. The Arab uprisings that began in December 2010 fleetingly seemed to herald a new beginning, yet they precipitated a period of unprecedented turmoil in Syria, Egypt and Libya, the spill-over effect of which has brought to the fore historical sectarian and religious tensions across the region.
ISIL is the latest and possibly the most brutal manifestation of this period of regional upheaval. Labour is clear that that threat cannot and must not be ignored. It cannot be ignored, because of our sense of conscience towards those who immediately face ISIL’s terror, because ISIL threatens the democratic Iraqi state and seeks to establish a state—a caliphate—of its own, and because of the danger that the export of ISIL’s ideology causes here in the United Kingdom.
The discussions at last week’s NATO summit highlighted the need to build the widest possible consensus in the pursuit of any strategy to combat ISIL. As the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, embarks on his tour of regional capitals today, it is clear that a broad partnership across the region, alongside a genuinely multilateral political, diplomatic and humanitarian alliance, is vital as we chart a way ahead.
Of course, any international strategy for combating ISIL in Iraq must ultimately be led by Baghdad. The formation of the new Iraqi Government this week was a much needed step forward. Prime Minister Abadi has a duty to his citizens and a responsibility in his Government to advance a more inclusive power-sharing form of working within the capital of Iraq—a subject about which there has already been some discussion on the Floor of the House. The progress that has been made so far shows that there is the possibility of further progress. With crucial posts such as Defence Secretary still to be filled, there is more that can and must be done to establish an inclusive Government who can earn the critical trust of Sunnis and Kurds across Iraq.
The threat that ISIL poses stretches across borders, so a strategy for combating ISIL cannot be confined within the borders of Iraq.
Rory Stewart
Would the right hon. Gentleman like to define what an inclusive Government in Baghdad would look like? What kind of offer needs to be made to the Sunni people in terms of autonomy, who should be in the Cabinet, and how would he judge whether the Government are or are not inclusive?
Mr Alexander
In asking his question, the hon. Gentleman anticipates my answer, which is that, frankly, it is not for the shadow Foreign Secretary to make that judgment. The critical judgment will be that of the Sunni community within Iraq. It is vital that there is a dialogue ahead of appointment, so that we do not have a situation in which those outside Iraq presume that a degree of unity has been achieved but, alas, it proves to be illusive within the country. The point that he makes is fair, but it only reinforces the vitality of there being inclusivity preceding the appointment, rather than assertions of inclusivity after the appointment.
Rehman Chishti
The shadow Foreign Secretary says that it is not the role of the international community to intervene in who comes to office and what position they take, but surely he agrees that the international community has a role in ensuring that another Government like Mr Maliki’s do not come to power. If that happens, the international community must dissociate itself at an earlier stage. If it had done so with Mr Maliki’s Government, we might not have the problem that we now have of international terrorism in Iraq.
Mr Alexander
I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about former Prime Minister Maliki. I had the opportunity to speak to President Barzani of the Kurdistan Regional Government a matter of weeks ago by video conference. He could not have been clearer about the destructive effect of the sectarian approach that was taken by the Maliki Government, both in corrupting the chain of command in the Iraqi army and destabilising the politics of the country. Our friends and colleagues in the United States were entirely right in holding out the need for Maliki to go, given the profound damage that he did to the fabric of society and the process of governance in Iraq. The challenge, however, is not to look backwards, but to look forwards to see whether the new Prime Minister is in a position to make the progress that many of us wish Maliki had been able to make.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) is making, and with which many of us agree, is that the Government and the Opposition seem to have an unachievable aim. It is slightly ironic that we are offering devo-max after 300 years of union, while at the same time we think there can be a unified Iraq, even though it has a Kurdish state that has its own Prime Minister, President and armed forces; the Saudis are not content to allow Iran to dominate the country; and the Iranians do not want 10 million barrels of oil a day to be pumped from a unified Iraq. That seems to be an unrealistic aim on the basis of which to have UK air strikes.
Mr Alexander
It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman to suggest that there is any meaningful comparison between what we are witnessing in Scotland and what is taking place in Iraq. When he has had the opportunity to reflect on the wisdom and sense of the remarks that he has made, I hope he will think again. There are unique and specific challenges facing Iraq that are wholly different from those we are facing in the United Kingdom. They reflect the particular circumstances of that country and the challenges that it faces today. If his point is that we need to find a way for a more inclusive approach to be taken to the politics within Iraq, I think we can agree with each other. I am not sure that I can go much further than that.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Perhaps I could try to clarify the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay). Is not the issue in Iraq that in large areas of the country, people do not accept the state or the democratic system because they do not think that it speaks to them and they do not think that there is a peaceful means of change? How will we persuade them that there is a peaceful, democratic answer?
Mr Alexander
Again, I think that the question is revealing. It is not for us in the House of Commons or in the west to persuade those people; it is for the politics of Iraq to move in the direction that we on both sides of the House wish it to move in. That places a premium on domestic, political leadership. It is deeply regrettable that Prime Minister Maliki succumbed to the forces of division, rather than showing the kind of leadership that we all wanted to see and creating unity. However, that is not a test for the Opposition or even for our Government; it is primarily a test for the Government in Baghdad. I sincerely hope that they will show themselves capable of rising to that test in the months ahead.
On Syria, no one would deny that there were differences of opinion across the House on the proposed military action to target President Assad’s chemical weapons facilities 12 months ago. However, even those who supported military action accept that the decision that was before the House a year ago in August was not a choice between ending or prolonging the conflict. It is the continuation of the conflict, rather than the form it has taken, that has allowed Syrian territory to be used as a training and recruiting base for ISIL. That is why the Opposition have argued that the priority for the international community must be to refocus attention on achieving a transitional agreement in Syria of the type that was anticipated in the Geneva II process. That is the only way to facilitate a more co-ordinated Syrian front that is dedicated to combating the threat of ISIL within the sovereign territory of Syria.
Humanitarian support for the countries affected by the turmoil in Iraq and Syria is vital. I hope that the Minister who winds up the debate will address the Opposition’s calls for a more comprehensive package of support for Jordan—a country that has one of the longest land borders with Iraqi ISIL-held territory and an even longer border with Syria in the north.
Mr Baron
I think all of us in the House agree that when it comes to ISIS and Iraq, the solution has to be political. On the military options, does the shadow Foreign Secretary accept that airstrikes alone will not defeat ISIS? Ground troops are required, but they should not be western troops. They should be local forces, and the elephant in the room is the Iraqi army itself.
Mr Alexander
I travelled down for this debate from Scotland, where I have been otherwise occupied, and had the great pleasure of reading the exchange between the hon. Gentleman and the Foreign Secretary on exactly that matter. I found myself in agreement with the point that the Foreign Secretary made before the Foreign Affairs Committee yesterday. Of course airstrikes have a role to play as part of the unique military capabilities of the United States, and they have been deployed in Iraq in particular, but that alone is not an adequate response to the scale and threat of the ISIL challenge that we are now witnessing. That is why I stand behind the process that Secretary of State Kerry has initiated, coming out of the NATO summit in Newport. I welcome the fact that he is in the region at the moment talking to those in regional capitals, and I hope to develop a little more of my theme on the matter in the coming moments.
Mr Alexander
Let me make a little progress, then I will be happy to take some more interventions.
The rise of ISIL has now created a threat so extreme that it is apparently uniting previous adversaries, including Iran and Saudi Arabia, neither of which has an interest in allowing it to succeed. Last week’s agreement by Arab League leaders to unite against ISIL is a hopeful sign of progress in the region, which as we have heard is too often divided along sectarian, ethnic and religious lines. That relates to the point that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) made. We support the decision of our friends and colleagues in France to convene an international conference on Iraq on 15 September, but as a permanent member of the Security Council and its current chair, we believe that the United Kingdom can and should do more to co-ordinate the efforts of key regional allies, particularly Turkey and Saudi Arabia, as well as to engage with Iran. So far, the Prime Minister has hinted at Iranian involvement but given no commitment to facilitate that where appropriate. I hope that the Minister who winds up the debate will give us a little more clarity about what discussions are under way in relation to Iran.
It seems clear from recent statements that the UK Government are still formulating their approach to the threat of ISIL. Obviously they are not alone in that endeavour, given recent and anticipated statements by the US President. Although any strategy for dealing with ISIL will by definition be long-term, that is not an excuse for long-term delay in setting it out. Of course there is a need for operational discretion, but diplomatic and political alliances can be effectively built only on the basis of open and frank discussions about aims and objectives in the days and weeks ahead. I therefore hope that further clarity will be provided.
Mr Gray
The shadow Foreign Secretary calls for clarity in the weeks and months that lie ahead. If Her Majesty’s Government were to decide that air strikes against Iraq, or parts of Iraq, became the right thing to do, and if they were—wrongly in my view—to come to the House and ask for a vote on the matter, would the Labour party support the Government?
Mr Alexander
First, I do not think it is under contemplation that there would be air strikes against Iraq. If there were air strikes, they would be against ISIL. We have made it clear on many occasions that we would reach a judgment on the basis of any motion brought before the House. That was the position that we took in relation to Libya a couple of years ago and in relation to the vote on chemical weapons in Syria in the House a year ago in August. It is for the Government to set out their thinking and for the Opposition to reach a judgment.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
The shadow Foreign Secretary knows that the United States has been engaged in air strikes—there have been about 130—and that the Kurds have warmly welcomed the contribution that those air strikes have made to blunting the advance of ISIL. To return to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) asked, if it were put to the right hon. Gentleman today that the United Kingdom should join the United States in those air strikes, would the Labour party support that?
Mr Alexander
As the hon. Gentleman is aware, no such request has been made. America has unique military capabilities, and we have supported the Government in their support of those US air strikes, which are at the specific request of the Iraqi Government. I am rightly not privy to all conversations between the British and Iraqi Governments, but my understanding is that no such request has been made to the British Government for air strikes against ISIL. We have supported the understanding that was set out in relation to the humanitarian mission and the use of Tornadoes for reconnaissance capabilities, first at Mount Sinjar and then more broadly. We have also strongly supported the arming of the peshmerga. I am glad to say that we have been able to take a genuinely bipartisan approach, and it ill behoves the hon. Gentleman either to suggest that a request has been made, when none has yet been forthcoming, or to anticipate particular circumstances. It is reasonable that we would be expected to cast our judgment on the basis of the circumstances at the time and the nature of the request issued.
Mr Alexander
I have been generous in taking a couple of interventions on this point, and I am keen to make a little progress.
The past seven weeks in Gaza and Israel have been the deadliest for years in an area already scarred by the tragic pattern of conflict. Today, the hopes of millions hinge on the willingness of all sides to uphold the latest, and hopefully lasting, Egyptian-brokered ceasefire. The Opposition opposed the Israel incursion into Gaza. When it began, we warned from the Dispatch Box that further escalation of the conflict would be a disaster for the people of both Gaza and Israel and a strategic error for Israel.
We have all seen this deadly pattern of violence too many times before. Five years ago, after an earlier conflict in Gaza, I walked amidst the rubble of what had been a Palestinian family’s home. As a father myself, I will never forget the father showing me tearfully where his children had been killed. The death toll caused by three weeks of intense and bloody fighting shocked and outraged many around the world. Such fighting goes on to define a generation, I fear; it makes enemies out of neighbours. Since the conflict began in July, more than 2,200 Palestinians have lost their lives, the vast majority of them innocent civilians. Of course the conflict must not be reduced simply to a ledger of casualties, but the scale of suffering in Gaza today must be fully and frankly acknowledged, because the life of a Palestinian child is worth no less than the life of an Israeli child.
Today, out of the rubble of Gaza, the death and destruction that followed the Israeli military incursion will be there for the world to see. Many people have been forced from their homes and more than 350,000 are thought to be sheltering in emergency accommodation. Many now have no home to return to, so the priority must be getting vital humanitarian resources into Gaza to help those in desperate need. I welcome the Government’s assurances on the UK’s bilateral support, and it is vital that the planned Palestinian donor conference, now scheduled for 12 October, does not face further delays.
Palestinian poverty cannot continue to be Israel’s de facto strategy for security. An end to the fighting, although of course welcome, must not be an excuse for a return to the status quo of terror, occupation and blockade. The whole House will feel real regret that instead of seizing the initiative to move forward, Israel has given the international community renewed cause for concern. The recent Israeli annexation of land in the west bank must be forthrightly condemned. It is a serious setback at a perilous time, and the Israeli Government must reverse that decision. Israel’s own Finance Minister has said that the decision harms Israel, and he is right.
In Israel, the death of 64 soldiers and three civilians has scarred a society already traumatised by the cost of conflict. No one should question Israel’s right to defend itself, but we all have a duty to raise questions about the wisdom, morality and legality of the force that is used. There can be no military solution to the conflict, either now or in the future. Only a wider political agreement to end the violence will provide the longer-term security that civilians on all sides crave. Of course, we unequivocally condemn the rocket attacks on civilian populations in Israel. There can be no justification for the conduct of Hamas and other organisations operating out of Gaza, but ultimately only a political agreement to end the violence will provide that longer-term security.
Today, the risk is a return to a period of no peace and no process. After the fighting has stopped, we all hope that talks will begin, but peace will come only when all sides accept that talks are not simply the things that happen in between renewed bouts of the conflict. Talks are about bringing a meaningful end to the cycle of violence, which is why I hope the British Government will continue their efforts to support meaningful attempts to secure a negotiated solution.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
I wholly support the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks that we need a political settlement of the Gaza-Israeli dispute. Does he agree that the Israelis risk losing international sympathy if they carry on building settlements and seizing land, which is contrary to international law and unacceptable?
Mr Alexander
One of the profound challenges facing the state of Israel is to recognise that in responding to its immediate security challenges in the region, it risks losing standing and authority in the international community. A younger generation of citizens in the United Kingdom have no memory of the experience of the Israeli state after 1948, when it was periodically threatened by invasion from powerful neighbours. Instead, they have seen in recent conflicts the overwhelming use of military force by the Israel defence forces, which shapes and affects their view of the conflict.
It is important for the Israeli Government to recognise that statehood for the Palestinians is not a gift to be given, but a right to be recognised. It is not simply that Israeli settlements on occupied territory lands are illegal under international law, it is that it is simply wrong to build on other people’s lands. That is why the most recent initiative is so wholly unacceptable, both because of the reality that Israel is building once more on other people’s land, with that land being occupied for military purposes, and because of the symbol that it sends about the seriousness of the Israeli Government to try to make meaningful progress on a negotiated solution. We must break the pattern of periodic conflict, permanent blockade, and episodic attempts at talks. In that sense, of course there is a heavy burden of responsibility on the Palestinians, but there is also a very heavy burden of responsibility on the Israeli Government. My genuine fear is that this latest step in settlement building will be interpreted as being far from positive as to the sincerity of the Israeli Government’s efforts in that regard.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
My right hon. Friend heard the Foreign Secretary say that simply wagging fingers would not contribute to meaningful peace in the middle east. Will he say what UK stance, either bilaterally or with our partners, could make any higher diplomatic or political case than wagging our finger?
Mr Alexander
My hon. Friend raises an important point. How does one effectively seek to influence the conduct of the Israeli Government? One truth that we in this House must confront is that Prime Minister Netanyahu—many of us have had concerns about specific actions he has taken—is probably more popular 10 years after taking office than when he first assumed it. The test for me is not, “Can we make headlines?”, but “Can we make a difference?”, and the test of that is whether actions taken in the United Kingdom, or at European level, strengthen the forces of progress in Israeli society, or strengthen the forces of reaction.
I fully understand the depth of feeling among many Opposition Members about the urgency of finding meaningful ways to influence Israel, and for it to adopt an approach that many of us believe better suited to its long-term interests. But in reality, if we were to take actions that strengthened a narrative in Israeli society that somehow the whole world is against them, that the only people they can trust to defend them are the IDF, and that they can have no security reliant on international agreements but must instead look only to themselves, I fear that far from that leading to the progress we all sincerely want, we would get a further reinforcement of the pattern of destruction and blockade that we have seen over recent years. I am conscious of the anger, urgency and frustration that so many people on both sides of this House feel about making progress, but our challenge is about what can make a difference given the discourse in Israeli society, the balance of forces in the Knesset, and the views previously taken by the Israeli Government.
Jeremy Corbyn
During the crisis of the last six weeks or so, American arms have continued to flow to Israel, the EU-Israel trade agreement continued unabated, and Britain, while not exporting a vast amount of equipment to Israel, has continued a military relationship with it. Does my right hon. Friend think that at the very least we should be supporting an investigation into war crimes and suspending military co-operation with Israel while that is going on?
Mr Alexander
We took a different position to the Government on the export of arms—once they managed to sort out what their position was—by saying that no arms should be exported during this conflict, and certainly that no arms should be exported where there were reasonable concerns that the consolidated criteria were not being adhered to by the end user, which in this case was the state of Israel. Of course any allegations of war crimes that are brought to the attention of the United Nations, and others, should be investigated.
On my hon. Friend’s substantive point, the nature of the military relationship between the United Kingdom and Israel is profoundly different to the relationship between the United States and Israel. It is important to nail the misperception that somehow the sustained military aid provided by the United States Government to the state of Israel, based on their long-standing strategic alliance, is comparable in a meaningful way to the export of arms to Israel under tightly drawn consolidated criteria and on a commercial basis by arms manufacturers in the United Kingdom.
When I was Secretary of State for International Development under the previous Administration, I oversaw the largest ever package of aid to the Palestinian Authority. We do not provide any aid to the Israelis as they are a much wealthier nation. The reasons we sent that aid to the Palestinian Authority were twofold. First, of course, we had an obligation on poverty reduction to make sure that we were ensuring a higher standard of living for impoverished people, not just on the west bank but in Gaza. Critically, we also supported those aid payments because we wanted a credible negotiating partner for the state of Israel. If we are serious about matching our words about a two-state solution with deeds, we must continue to make what I recognise are often difficult decisions and choices to continue to support the legitimate voice of the Palestinian peoples, the Palestinian Authority. If we are to be questioned about our aid relationship with the region, the facts are that we do not provide aid to Israel, but we do provide hundreds of millions of pounds to the Palestinians—and rightly so—both in the service of poverty reduction and to ensure a capacity for meaningful negotiations in the future.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman’s analysis of the situation will come across as extremely one-sided, and as far too dismissive of the role of Hamas in this situation.
Mr Alexander
I am not entirely clear of the basis on which the hon. Gentleman makes his point, but let me reiterate for the record, and so that he can rest assured, that I am unyielding in my condemnation of Hamas, both for the indiscriminate killing of Israeli civilians and for the destructive role it has played when we have tried to secure the two-solution we want. Please do not be in any doubt as to where I stand on wanting a unification of the Palestinian community so that we can have that meaningful two-state solution, but I am also unequivocal in my condemnation of the use of rockets as a weapon of war by Hamas and other terrorist organisations operating out of Gaza. There should be no uncertainty or ambiguity about my position.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
Will my right hon. Friend say a couple of words about a matter on which I had hoped the Foreign Secretary would have accepted a question from me, particularly as I wrote to him about it only last week? It concerns the terms of the ceasefire agreement in Gaza. We all accept that a long-term solution requires a two-state solution, justice for the Palestinians, security for Israel and so on, but the ceasefire agreement is specific in requiring actions now. One of those actions is the cessation of hostilities, the other is at least an easing of the blockade. Last week the new DFID Minister—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think the shadow Foreign Secretary has picked up the point. If necessary the hon. Gentleman will have to make another intervention.
Mr Alexander
I hope I have got the gist of my hon. Friend’s point about the lifting of the blockade. Of course we want that, but in reality it will happen only with the agreement of the Israelis, who are ensuring that the blockade is in place at the moment. That therefore requires it to be part of a process, leading to the kind of meaningful negotiations of which I have spoken. After a previous conflict, one reason why I travelled to Gaza and Israel was to urge the lifting of the blockade, which at the time was affecting humanitarian supplies—not just access for humanitarian workers, but the most basic essentials of life in Gaza. Similarly, we need a dynamic process whereby we can get the blockade lifted and return to a greater degree of normality in Gaza, while at the same time have the kind of meaning negotiations of which I have been speaking.
I wish to make some progress, because I am conscious that many hon. Members want to speak. As I said, the north African region was the birthplace of the Arab uprising, and across the region countries are still struggling to address the consequences. Of course, although some might face similar problems, each north African state is different and distinctive. In Tunisia, the Government and the people continue to work towards a political settlement that can move the country forward. High unemployment and sporadic violent clashes on the streets continue, but the prospect for long-term political reconciliation remains strong, and the international community must unite around supporting elections to take place later this year.
The situation in Libya stands in marked contrast to the story of Tunisian progress. The intensification of fighting near the capital Tripoli has led to calls for an urgent and immediate ceasefire and the Libyan Cabinet submitted its resignation en masse to Parliament, which is today taking refuge in a ferry in the city of Tobruk after being forced out by the Tripoli militias. The UK Government issued a joint statement on 25 August saying that outside interference in Libya would exacerbate divisions and undermine Libya’s democratic transition, but given the deteriorating security situation, I am sure the Foreign Secretary would agree that if the opportunity for real political reconciliation is to be seized, the UK, along with our allies France, Germany, Italy and the United States, have a responsibility and role to play. It is vital that international partners continue to encourage all sides in Libya to engage constructively in the democratic process, while continuing our active backing of the UN support mission there. The UN Libya envoy arriving in Tripoli on Monday said it was a society that was fed up with conflict. We know that the people of Libya want the fighting to stop; now we need to see Libya’s political leaders taking action to resolve this crisis.
I will speak briefly about Iran. In an already volatile region at a particularly perilous period, a nuclear-armed Iran poses a threat not only to its neighbours, but to the stability of the whole region, so the agreement in November 2013 to curb enrichment and grant greater access to inspectors was a significant step forward and one that we welcomed. As many Members across the House have acknowledged, however, the strength of the agreement will be tested through its implementation. In recent weeks, the talks between the P5 plus 1 have clearly stalled over disagreements on the purpose of Iran’s nuclear programme. The deadline to overcome these difficulties is fast approaching, so as meetings take place in New York later this month, the international community must remain focused on securing a comprehensive deal.
Until Russian troops violated the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine in 2014, no country had seized the territory of another European country by force since 1945. The recent ceasefire deal agreed last week was therefore a welcome sign of progress, but given the continuing potential for catastrophic misunderstanding or simply misjudgment on the ground, the priority must remain de-escalation. Russian troops must return to their bases, President Putin must cease his backing for separatist militias and the Kremlin must stop the flow of arms and personnel across the Russian border into Ukraine. Until then, Europe must continue to be explicit about the real costs and consequences for Russia if it fails to de-escalate the crisis.
Only a graduated hierarchy of diplomatic and economic measures can help President Putin to change course. That is why I welcome all the steps agreed last week at the NATO summit in Wales, specifically with regard to the reassurances given to NATO’s vital eastern European members and partners. In the face of renewed Russian aggression and the re-emergence of territorial disputes on the continent, the need for NATO to revisit its stated core purpose—securing a Europe that is whole, free and at peace—has been brought into stark relief.
This debate could not cover several other pressing issues that have rightly been the focus of the Foreign Secretary’s effort since his appointment. No doubt today the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary will cover in more detail some of the domestic aspects of security and counter-terrorism. As the Leader of the Opposition made clear on Monday, the Government must now demonstrate a clear-eyed understanding that wherever our interests lie, we need a strategy that combines military readiness with political, diplomatic and strategic alliances, and in their efforts to develop and advance such an approach, I hope they will continue to enjoy our support.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We will start with a seven-minute limit, which means we should get everyone in, but if we can help each other, it will make a difference. I call Sir Richard Ottaway.
Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the shadow Foreign Secretary—I agreed with virtually everything he said.
Originally, the NATO summit was primarily to deal with the future of Afghanistan after the withdrawal of ISAF forces, but two issues that threaten the world order dominated the agenda: first, the risk posed by Islamist extremism, and secondly the long-term implications of the Russia-Ukraine crisis. The Syria vote last August left a vacuum in the world order, but no one predicted that ISIS would conquer large swathes of Syria and Iraq and impose terror, or that Russia would invade Crimea and directly fuel a bloody civil war in eastern Ukraine. Both crises, although unexpected, are not just regional conflicts and both threaten the security of Europe. The hybrid war led by Putin and the Islamist terror imposed by the jihadists cannot be tackled with traditional responses.
The Ukrainian crisis is a wake-up call for the west. Russian imperialism and revisionism are back. We have tried to address it with diplomacy, but clearly it has not worked, so we have imposed sanctions. However, not every country has complied with the new rules. Spain, for instance, is still allowing the Russian navy to refuel in Ceuta. The bans and asset freezes have now been escalated, but we must be ready to take more hard-line measures. Even France has decided to stop the delivery of the Mistral warships. The City of London and Russian transactions should be our next targets. As Edward Lucas, senior economist for The Economist and a witness before the Foreign Affairs Committee, said the other day:
“The City is a fifth column in this country and it lobbies very hard against restrictions on the import and laundry of dirty money here.”
This has to end. The City cannot be allowed to get away with it.
Sanctions only, however, will not deter an irrational and unpredictable Vladimir Putin, who reportedly said that
“if I want, I will have Kiev in two weeks”.
We must show more solidarity with countries in the vicinity of Russia, especially now that Russian forces have crossed the border and kidnapped an Estonian officer. I welcome the Prime Minister’s reassurance on Monday that Estonia is a red line for NATO.
Perhaps we should forget about the NATO-Russian Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Co-operation and Security and install permanent NATO bases in the member states that were once part of the communist bloc. Russia itself has breached that agreement by annexing Crimea and intervening in Ukraine. We must not forget about Ukraine. Kiev needs our reassurance, but mostly our money to contain a severe economic crisis. The freeze of the conflict in eastern Ukraine could end up in another no man’s land being influenced by Russia, like Georgia’s Abkhazia and South Ossetia or Moldova’s Transnistria and Gagauzia.
The second major threat is from Islamist extremism. ISIS is a manifestation of the brutal and poisonous extremism that has developed in the middle east, north Africa and the Sahel. It has been thriving on the sectarian violence triggered by the polarising Shi’a Government of Nouri al-Maliki. In addition, the fight against Assad has strengthened the jihadists. Islamist warriors from all over the world, including the UK, have joined ISIS in its crusade to topple the Syrian dictator. Cash, too, has flooded in from wealthy Gulf donors. However, I completely accept the word of Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf Al-Saud, the hugely respected Saudi Arabian ambassador to London, when he denies his Government’s involvement.
The suspicion remains, however, that shadowy middle eastern figures are funding terrorism, and the UK has been leading efforts to halt that flow. I welcome the UN resolution, drafted by the UK and adopted by everyone, threatening sanctions against ISIS financiers and weapons suppliers. However, ISIS does not rely solely on that money; it has been flourishing on smuggling, extorting taxes and ransoms, plundering and selling oil from invaded territories.
Sir Nicholas Soames
Is my right hon. Friend aware that at a meeting tomorrow in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, hosted by the Saudis, the Gulf states, with John Kerry present, are to decide how best to move forward in the fight against ISIS? Does he agree that they have a perfect chance to show, through bold and decisive action, that they will not tolerate what ISIS is doing and well understand the need to deal with it?
Sir Richard Ottaway
I completely agree with my right hon. Friend and I welcome that meeting. Indeed, he pre-empts my next remark. ISIS must be stopped and defeated, and I for one will support the Government’s plan to join the United States in air strikes if they decide to do so.
Rehman Chishti
On air strikes, ISIL and Syria, my right hon. Friend will be aware of the words of Robert Ford, the former US envoy to Syria, who said that the current international policy on Syria does not reflect the reality on the ground. That being the case, does my right hon. Friend agree that the international community now needs to review its policy on Syria?
Sir Richard Ottaway
I have to confess that I rather agree with the Foreign Secretary that Syria is very much a different case from Iraq. We have to be guided by those in the Foreign Office who are closer to the ground and to the intelligence that has been received on the ground.
The focus should now be on Iraq and then we can think about how to address the situation in Syria. However, to be frank, a western intervention will not magically solve the problems on the ground. There is a need for Arab countries to join the coalition of the willing to step in and confront ISIS militarily and politically. A huge rift has arisen between the Sunnis, the Shi’as and, to a degree, the Kurds. The ISIS surge is fuelled by a Sunni uprising, but in truth the Sunnis are not fans of ISIS. In my view, they would ditch the jihadists once a “Sunnistan” was established. As ISIS is hostile to everybody, I predict that it will have a relatively short life, but eventually I think these developments will result in a Kurdistan in the north, a “Sunnistan” in the west and a “Shi’astan” in the south.
However, the threats posed by a revanchist Russia and an extremist ISIS are not the only ones currently facing the world—although they are the most pressing. The internet and modern methods of communication have enabled local and regional extremisms to flourish. Thanks to them, we are witnessing a wave of global tribalism, starting with the Scottish referendum in our own backyard. In times like these we realise how much we depend on our international alliances to address present and future risks.
Over the summer recess, we heard a lot from bishops and generals, who gave us the benefit of their views. The Bishop of Leeds is a great friend of mine. Indeed, he was the best bishop that Croydon ever had, but to accuse the Government of lacking a strategy towards the Christians stuck on a mountain in Syria is, I think, the wrong approach. Our strategy is to have an Army, to be a member of NATO, to be a member of international institutions and then to react when the circumstances arise. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children wants children to be saved; Médecins Sans Frontières wants more health services. These are single-issue lobbying organisations. I think the Churches should recognise that. Again, that goes for the generals who on numerous occasions called for Parliament to be recalled to bomb anywhere they could think of. In this area the only people who can make policy are those who are prepared to seek election and to stand on a platform to defend it, not those who sit in armchairs.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
I draw to the House’s attention the fact that I am co-chairman of the all-party group on Iran and also co-chairman of the British-Turkish Forum.
I begin by echoing the sentiments expressed by my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary to the Foreign Secretary—a great post that I hope he enjoys. I always felt it was living history, but I had echoing in my head the words of Henry Ford: history was “one damned thing after another”. So it was for me, and so I think it will be for the Foreign Secretary.
John Maynard Keynes famously said:
“When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”
The information on Syria has changed. The Assad regime is not going to go and, with respect to the Foreign Secretary, I did not really feel that he was any more convinced than we were by the answer he gave. The situation has simply changed. I would not put any money on that regime now going, and if we want to deal with the greater evil, in my view there has to be communication—not a re-establishment of relations—with it. I firmly believe that those in the Government should follow up the entirely sensible suggestion from their hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) and many others in this House that we need to see a restoration of the Geneva arrangements and, critically, we need to see Iran brought into that process as well, because there will not be a solution to the problems of Syria—and therefore to the problems of Iraq—without that regional agreement, which yes involves Turkey, but also has to involve Iran. With respect to the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), we will not get a solution in Iraq unless we solve Syria as well, because that border is so porous.
Iran has played a constructive part in trying to defeat ISIL and in securing the necessary change in Iraq. The US Administration, as is well known, have been in direct communication with the Iranians and, according to well sourced reports, are now doing all they can to reach agreement with Iran in the P5 plus 1 talks on the nuclear issue. I greatly welcomed the acts of the Foreign Secretary’s predecessor in agreeing in principle to reopen the embassies in Tehran, but those were promised for May. They were pushed back to August and they have now been pushed back to some other date, yet to be defined. I ask the Foreign Secretary: why is this? I know the Iranians are not the easiest partners—a feeling which, I should say, is reciprocated by them—but the Administration in Tehran are under domestic pressure. They have a population desperate for links with the west, and if we build a partnership with them, we can do a great deal more than we have.
I hope, too, that the British Government will abandon their view that we should try to punish Iran through trade. We are the only Government doing this. As US-led sanctions against Iran were being tightened, guess what? Hard-nosed as ever, the United States was increasing its exports to Iran, to the benefit of its farming and its pharmaceutical companies. In Britain, we have been punishing our own companies—nobody else—by ensuring that trade with the Iranians plummets.
Daniel Kawczynski
I completely concur with the right hon. Gentleman on that point. A Coventry-based company has worked with the Iranians in the past to produce their national state car. That company would like to do much more work with the Iranians, but because of these policies it is impossible to do so.
Mr Straw
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The United States has gone out of its way to assist its own companies to ensure that they exploit, as widely as possible, the provisions in the sanctions regime—including those that were extended in the agreement with Iran of 24 November last year—and take up these opportunities, and western European countries are doing the same. Why is Britain failing to take these opportunities?
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
I will be very brief. Just before history gets completely rewritten, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks that pressure on the economy in Iran played any part whatever in bringing Iran back to the negotiating table to talk about its nuclear file?
Mr Straw
I am absolutely certain that it did, but the sanctions, led by the United States, allowed for the export from the west to Iran of agricultural products, food products and pharmaceuticals. Those concessions were exploited by the United States and western European countries. It is only the United Kingdom that has added to those sanctions, through additional, gratuitous efforts that simply hurt United Kingdom companies, not Iran.
Let me now turn to Israel and Palestine. Like everybody else in this House, I have no brief whatever for Hamas. It was I who introduced the Terrorism Act 2000 and then, as soon as it was on the statute book, ensured that Hamas, along with 20 other terrorist organisations, was proscribed as a terrorist organisation. I was right to do that then and it is right for it to stay as a terrorist outfit. Hamas breached every rule in the book by launching rockets against the civilian population in Israel, but, as the Foreign Secretary said, that cannot conceivably justify the wholly disproportionate response of the Israelis in allowing 2,000 mainly innocent men, women and children to be killed in the way that they did. Whatever they say, they did not have a care for the civilian population.
Now, as we have heard, the Israelis have decided to annex over 1,000 acres of Palestinian land near Bethlehem. I congratulate the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on their strong words—this was “utterly deplorable”, according to the Prime Minister, and illegal under international law—but what I ask is, what are we going to do about it? I say, with respect, that the Israelis do not care what is said by any western European Government. I used to think something different, but it is not the case; provided that this more right-wing and more extreme Israeli Government have the United States Congress in their pocket, which they do, they do not care about sentiment here. They would care if we were to do what we should be doing, which is to ensure that goods produced in the occupied territories with the label of Israel are treated like any other counterfeit goods and subject to strict rules and additional tariffs.
I am not in favour for a moment of generalised boycotts or sanctions against Israel, but I am in favour of an EU démarche on Israel to get it to pull back—and if it does not do that, we should withdraw our ambassadors and temporarily downgrade our diplomatic arrangements with the country. I am also strongly in favour of recognising Palestine as a state with a formal status in the United Nations. All the things that Israel said would happen if we were to do this have happened anyway—and with a vengeance.
Let me turn to the issue of Russia and Ukraine. I support the approach that the Government are broadly taking in respect of Russia. The brutal truth is that, at the moment, Vladimir Putin believes that he is winning by his own calculus, because he has more to gain than to lose in the region than the west does. The annexation of the Crimea is now a fait accompli, but I believe that over time these sanctions will hurt Russia. It is significantly economically weaker than we are. Its economy is half our size for a population twice our size, and it is over-dependent on energy. As well as maintaining sanctions, we must work out what we can legitimately offer Russia in the final negotiation and, above all, we must start to reduce Europe’s over-dependence on Russian hydrocarbons. That is what lies behind Russia’s belief that it can win. It must not be allowed to do so.
Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)
This debate covers four of the most complicated, most grave and serious threats to our well-being and security that this country has faced for a very long time. I congratulate those who spoke before me on their brilliance in covering all four topics in such restricted time. Three quarters of an hour is not really long enough to do so from the Front Bench. I know my limitations; I have strong views on all four, but I propose to confine myself to the problems in Iraq and Syria and to jihadist extremism, which is probably, in a competitive field, the most current and pressing problem and the most dangerous situation that we face at this very moment.
It seems to me that a great deal of attention is being paid, outside the House and in this debate, to whether or not the Government will be supported if they decide to use armed force and take part in the air strikes in which the United States is currently engaged. That is a very important question, but in my opinion it is somewhat putting the cart before the horse to make that the main question. An answer to that question depends on all kinds of other things being satisfied.
I suspect that my view coincides with that of the vast majority here—that we would of course support the use of British armed force if it was essential, unavoidable, in support of some crucial national interest and in pursuit of some well thought out and credible policy objective. We should have learnt in the last 15 years—when on the whole, American and western policy in the entire middle east has been a catastrophe—that leaping into military activity without a well-judged policy, a well-judged diplomacy and a well-judged strategy has contributed to the extraordinary state of anarchy that has now broken out across the region.
Those problems were not caused by our military activity or by our armed forces; they were caused by the disastrous politics of the decision to invade Iraq for rather naive ideological reasons as far as the Americans were concerned, and rather contrived and almost bogus ones as far as the British and some of our allies were concerned. We have not achieved striking success in the odd ventures we have made in the use of military power occasionally in north Africa and the middle east since. Before we use any armed force, we need to know exactly what medium and long-term strategy lies behind the politics of the immediate steps that we are going to take.
One thing I greatly welcome in the Foreign Secretary’s excellent speech was what I thought was his pretty clear undertaking that we would not take part in any military action without a debate and without the approval of Parliament. It is possible to contrive a rather childlike version of our constitutional position and say that the royal prerogative controls the use of military forces. That is very attractive to Governments who are a little uncertain of their majority in the House of Commons when they want to take action.
It is true that if there is a sudden surprise attack on a British possession or on the British military, the Prime Minister can use the royal prerogative to respond instantly, without having to wait to recall Parliament, and to order his troops to defend themselves against whatever the threat may be, but the idea that we work out with our allies a comprehensive policy and strategy and then join in military action in support of it without a pretty convincing vote of approval from the House of Commons would certainly be a political outrage. I think that it would be of very dubious legality too.
Mr Gray
I intend to return to the point that my right hon. and learned Friend is making in my subsequent remarks. However, does he agree that over the last 1,000 years, the House has had only two such votes before action has been taken? The first such vote was over Iraq, which I think we are all agreed was a disaster, so a vote in the House of Commons does not necessarily lead to a worthwhile war. The second was this time last year over Syria. All the other wars—the Falklands, the Gulf, the first world war and the second world war—were conducted by the Prime Minister and the Government without approval of the House of Commons.
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend—and I am sure the research behind his point will be checked—but I really think that in 2014, in the circumstances of today, to assert that the Executive has the unfettered right to take part in military action without getting the approval of the House is simply indefensible. I would personally be outraged by it.
Mr Redwood
I am grateful, but surely the point is that on the previous occasions of great wars, the House was in agreement, so there was no need for a Division. If the Opposition had opposed the decision, there would have been a vote.
Mr Clarke
I hope that on this occasion, too, we could reach such a political consensus in the House of Commons and across the country and that our debates about the use of armed force would lead to no significant division. That would be an ideal outcome, but I think that a controversial use of military force in yet another attempt to intervene in the Arab spring—whether it be this time with Shi’ite allies, this time with Sunni allies or this time with whatever outrageous group has emerged—requires a vote.
In principle, I am all in favour of using military force when it is unavoidable and in the vital national interest. I agree that ISIL is one of the most barbaric and outrageous organisations that has emerged on this planet for some considerable time, so I have no moral scruple whatever about the proper use of military force against them. I would like to see them degraded and destroyed. However, when the House votes and debates this sort of action on whatever occasion, experience shows that we must now have a much clearer idea of our objective. Our objective is not only to protect our security; it involves consideration of what will contribute to the restoration of stability and normality across the region. It means consideration of what will command the support of sane Muslims, sane Shi’a and sane Sunni; what will get sufficient support from the regional powers, as well as from the western powers; what kind of order we are trying to put in place. I hope that that does not get narrowed down to consideration of whether or not we should join the Americans in air strikes on particular installations before or after the mid-term elections in the United States.
John Kerry is engaged in a vital mission which goes to the heart of what I have just said. He is trying to put together a regional alliance. In that regard—I agree with those who have hinted at this—we have to rethink where we are starting from. A regional alliance must include some people with whom we have been enemies, and with whom we have very serious issues on other fronts, because the widest possible support is required.
The key players, obviously, are Iran and Saudi Arabia. They are the two great powers of the region. Many of the troubles have actually been caused by people acting as proxies for the interests of those two states. They have far more influence on the ground, and on events, than we in the west are likely to have. They know far more about what is going on. I have been a member of the National Security Council for the last two years, and I know the limits of our actual knowledge of events on the ground in this region. I know that we are constantly surprised by the latest utterly extraordinary and unpredictable turn of events that sweeps over what we have done. With Iran go Assad and Hezbollah, which is a close ally. The Shi’ite militias in Iraq, which we call the Iraqi Government, are also very influenced by the Iranians..
We just have to accept—without in any way resiling from our criticism about getting involved—that the Saudi Arabians really must deal with the Qatari problem of the people whom they support, and also—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames) said a moment ago—make absolutely clear that they are not supporting, in any way, fringe groups which, in the long term, are as much of a danger to Saudi and Gulf interests as they are to our own.
Turkey is a vital player. It is still the nearest that we have to a moderate Islamic Government. It has huge direct interests; it is threatened; and it is essential to have at least its complicity in what we do, and, I would hope, its support as well. Egypt is also a vital player. It has recovered from the outrageous threats of the Arab dawn by restoring political dictatorship, but it is nevertheless a key player. Russia must be kept onside, because it is also of influence.
I am not sure that the states of Iraq and Syria will ever exist again as we know them, but I do think that we need a political strategy in order to ensure that some kind of long-term stability will replace the anarchy that we have helped to create so far.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has used up his time.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I agree with the Government that it would be a folly for western powers such as Britain to barge in, cowboy-like, and lead the fight against ISIL; but we do have unique military, surveillance and intelligence capabilities which those on the front line do not have, and which should be deployed if—and only if—they request it. That has been the case in northern Iraq with the request from the Iraqi Government, the Kurds and the minorities which risk extermination by ISIL, and—very significantly, if covertly —from Iran. The fact that Iran has given its de facto blessing to US air strikes is of seismic importance. It opens up an opportunity for future engagement and collaboration which could be transformative for the whole region, including, possibly, Israel-Palestine. We also agree on the need to help local Iraqi and Kurdish forces to defeat ISIL by air strikes, supplying military equipment and other military and intelligence support, which has clearly been the only force capable of stemming ISIL’s remorseless and ruthless advance.
That brings us to the elephant in the room: Syria. ISIL will not be defeated if it is constantly allowed to regroup there, because it is from its Syrian bases that it has launched into Iraq. It must be confronted and defeated in Syria too, and, like it or not, that means engagement with the Syrian regime. No one disagrees that Assad is a barbarous, blood-soaked dictator; but he heads the Syrian Government, and he is backed by approximately 40% of the population. Surely, by now at least, the United Kingdom Government and the United States must acknowledge that he is not going to be defeated—not because the Prime Minister was prevented by this House from getting his way with air strikes and, before that, with arming Assad’s opponents, and not because the House said no to pulling Britain into the quagmire of the Syrian civil war, trapped between Sunni and Shi’a, between ISIL and Assad, between Saudis and Iranians in their proxy conflict. Contrary to the line peddled, regrettably, by the Foreign Secretary today, there is no prospect of achieving a transition in Syria without negotiating with Assad and his regime, especially with Russia standing behind it. Our failure to understand that is a major reason why the civil war has been so prolonged, and why ISIL has been allowed to flourish.
Mr Redwood
What kind of morality is it that says that if a bully is a successful bully, we should want to be friends with him, and completely stand on its head the policy of trying to get rid of him?
Rory Stewart
The right hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that Bashar al-Assad’s main incentive for working with us is the fact that we are worried about terrorism on his eastern frontier. Why would he co-operate rather than leaving those terrorists there, given that they now provide the main underpinning legitimacy of his regime? Why would he work with us on this, sincerely?
Mr Hain
Let me come to that, and explain.
The Prime Minister has described President Assad as “illegitimate”, implying that Britain and the United States could act in Syria with impunity. Surely that position is legally questionable, given that Assad won recent—admittedly highly manipulated— elections, and given that the divided rebel factions do not constitute an alternative Government. Russia, Assad’s ally, would be likely to veto any attempt to gain United Nations authority for air strikes, and Assad can deploy sophisticated Russian-made air defence systems and fighter planes. His air capacity may have been degraded, especially over the parts of Syria that he no longer controls, but it is still formidable. I simply do not see how we could mount air strikes—as I believe we must in Syria if we are to degrade and help to defeat ISIL—without engaging with the regime in some way. That does not mean befriending Assad, and it does not mean legitimising his regime in any way. It could mean back-channel contact. But whatever the means, a way must be found to clear the path for air strikes. We should also have to engage with Iran, and with Russia—which, again, will be difficult, especially given Putin’s behaviour in Ukraine, but which is, in my view, essential.
The Government know full well that I have been a consistent critic of their Syria policy. I have described it as ill-conceived and ultimately counter-productive, as, indeed, I believe events have proved it to be. However, we do not have to agree on that to find common ground over the urgent need for us to act in order to tackle the barbarous mediaeval threat of ISIL, and to act now.
As for Ukraine, I think that Europe’s and NATO’s further push right up to Russia’s front door is ill-advised. Western political bluster, military bombast and tit-for-tat sanctions will not resolve the problem. Why not instead press for a negotiated agreement, however difficult? Under such an agreement, Ukraine would be militarily neutral, which would mean no membership of NATO, and certainly no Russian military pact. Ukraine’s status would be comparable to that of Finland, but, obviously, without membership of the European Union. It would be guaranteed by Moscow and Washington. There would be no further NATO encirclement or enlargement around Russia’s borders, in return for no illegal or aggressive moves by Russia in Ukraine, Moldova or any of its other neighbours. I think that that should be part of a geopolitical deal with the European Union too, in which it, like NATO, would recognise limits to its eastward expansion. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] I am now being cheered by the Eurosceptics whom I continually oppose, as a pro-European, but I still believe that that is the right policy.
Europe’s March 2014 agreement with Ukraine should be revisited, to offer a reciprocal agreement between Russia and Ukraine with guarantees for Moscow on both trade and political co-operation. Trade and co-operation agreements with those countries—including Ukraine—is desirable, but not full European Union membership. I believe that such a strategy offers a far more promising route to ending the current mutually damaging conflict that has engulfed Ukraine; but, again, it does not mean treating Putin as a buddy. It does not mean endorsing his nakedly manipulative aggression, his authoritarianism or his shameful human rights record. It simply means acknowledging that Russia’s backyard matters greatly to it, just as ours does to us. Then we might be able to build stability and peace in that region.
As will be apparent, I have big areas of agreement with the Government’s approach but big areas of disagreement as well, especially on Syria and the whole approach to the middle east region, and also in terms of Russia and Ukraine. I do hope the Government will think again about these matters. I think there is a prospect of moving forward in both areas. It is going to be very difficult, and there will be all sorts of setbacks, but I am confident—I am absolutely certain—that pursuing the policy we are currently pursuing will bring no practical and positive results at all.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The House will be only too well aware of the high demand for time to speak and the low supply of time available. I must therefore reduce the limit on Back-Bench speeches to six minutes.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
We gather here today on the eve of a vote in Scotland that could tear the United Kingdom apart after 300 years together, and the question for us—whether in Scotland or in foreign policy—is: are we proud of ourselves? Are we serious?
We look around the world, from Kabul to Tripoli, from Damascus to Baghdad to Kiev, and we see the wreck of international foreign policy over the last 20 years. So lamentable is that wreck that it is hardly worth holding the House’s attention to list the fiascos that we see today. The Afghan economy has gone into a 40% contraction since January this year, and the two Presidents are in a stand-off on the basis of ethnic divisions, and it has not even been raised seriously in this House. In Tripoli, the Misrata militia have been dabbling their toes in the American embassy swimming pool three years after our intervention. In Iraq, following a surge on which the US Government spent $420 billion and deployed over 100,000 troops a year, we are now confronted with the re-emergence of something even worse than General Petraeus confronted in 2007. And people have spoken much more eloquently than myself about the fiasco we currently face in Ukraine.
So lamentable is this problem that we should not do what it would be tempting to do, which is to learn the lessons of this and talk about our mistakes, look at the limits of our knowledge, our power and our legitimacy, and confront the fact that we are not good enough in this country at seeing what we cannot do, what we do not know and what, frankly, people do not want us to do. So lamentable is the situation that instead of emphasising humility, we in fact need to rediscover our confidence and our energy. A time has come, in fact, to rebuild, and rebuilding the seriousness of this country means acknowledging failure and regaining public trust by showing people that we have learned the lessons of where we went wrong, and then investing in our institutions.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) pointed out that on the National Security Council it is quite difficult to know what is happening in the world, and that is not very surprising because, despite our grand protestations about how we are going to remodel the world from Mali to central Africa, in fact our capacity—the number of people in defence intelligence within the Foreign Office—is pathetically poor. The entire extra capacity committed to Syria was a single SMS1 officer, a D7 and a D6. When the crisis broke out in Russia and Ukraine, we discovered that the United Kingdom had cancelled its Russian analysis section in the defence intelligence service and we had to move the South Caucasus officer over to Crimea. When I and my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) turned up in Kurdistan two weeks ago, we discovered a single consul general who did not have the staff or the resources to visit any of the refugee camps or make it to the front line.
We need to get out of a situation in which only three of our 15 ambassadors in the middle east speak Arabic. We need to understand that our Foreign Office has a budget half that of the French Foreign Office and considerably smaller than the amount we commit to the winter fuel allowance. Before any of us go around talking about our brilliant strategy for Ukraine or Iraq, we should begin rebuilding those basic institutions: we should challenge the Government, and challenge the Opposition, to commit immediately more resources towards policy and analysis and understanding of what is going on on the ground, because there are no options for Ministers and there are no scenarios we can discuss in this House unless we understand the situation on the ground.
Mr Hain
I support the hon. Gentleman’s point about resourcing the Foreign Office—and the Foreign Secretary may agree on that, too. The budget cuts, which started under the Labour Government, have been remorselessly pursued under the hon. Gentleman’s Government. For a lot of other Whitehall Departments the Foreign Office budget is not even petty cash, but the cuts have been disastrous in their effect on the Foreign Office’s capabilities.
Rory Stewart
I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much for his intervention. As he knows, this is not simply a question of resources; it is also a question of the priority we put on policy analysis and challenge. It is about the people we promote and the people we hold accountable when they fail, and it is about a seriousness within the institution about getting to grips with these issues.
We all roughly understand what a solution to ISIL in Iraq would look like in theory—a regional solution, which people have talked about, and a political solution on the ground using the Sunni tribes against ISIL—but these are not things that can be resolved here on a whiteboard. They are things that entirely depend on being on the ground. There is the question of exactly what Qatar’s role is in this and how we can shift its position, the question of what we can get from Saudi Arabia, and the question of how we deal with the fact that foreign fighters are coming out of Turkey and oil is going back into Turkey. Those elements of the regional solution are not theory; they are practice. They are the practice of defence attachés and diplomats on the ground working day in, day out. The question of how to use the Sunni tribes against ISIL is, again, no theory; it is about this Sunni tribe or sheikh, that Sunni tribe or sheikh, this weapon, that money, this long-term strategy. The question of what the Iraqi Government are is not about generic statements about legitimacy or inclusiveness; it is about questions such as, “What is the role of Ibrahim Jaafari in this Government, and are any of these Sunnis who are currently standing for the Iraqi Government actually credible?”
The questions in Ukraine are the same kinds of questions. We can create the theoretical framework, but in the end we need some moral principles behind us. What do we make of this man Putin? Such questions can only be answered by looking at our own values. What kind of moral obligation do we feel we have to the Ukrainian people? What kind of obligation do we feel we have to the international order or the international system? How much risk are we prepared to take? How many sacrifices are we really prepared to make to confront Putin over Ukraine?
Unless we rediscover the ability to focus on what we can do and what we ought to do, this foreign policy, which should be a theatre of heroism, will instead be a narrow stage for impotence, self-flattery and oblivion.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
It is an honour to follow that distinguished speech by my constituency neighbour the Defence Committee Chair, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I wholeheartedly endorse his analysis of the need to repair our nation’s capacity to act. In the short time available to me, I shall focus on why I think that is important.
A year on from Parliament rejecting action in Syria, here we are again, wracked with uncertainty and warning ourselves of dire consequences if we intervene or if we sit back, and we have a Prime Minister who has seemed trapped by the fiasco of the chaotic vote last year and his hasty decision to rule out all military action in its aftermath. Some are attempting to rewrite history on that vote, suggesting we were being asked to intervene on the side of the murderous butchers who have now gained a foothold in Iraq. Some, such as the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), have made the argument that every time we go in we seem to make it worse, so better to leave well alone, but that is a counsel of despair.
By failing to intervene in Syria when President Assad used chemical weapons against his own people we abandoned the moderate, democratic Syrian opposition who were bravely fighting both the brutal regime and the ISIL insurgency that was, at that time, being covertly bolstered by Assad himself to cloud the thinking of the west and distract his main internal enemy.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
I must have expressed myself very badly, given the hon. Gentleman’s parody of what I said. The gravity of the problem is such that we are fully justified in using military force in support of international order and, in particular, of our own interests. What I said was that that would work only when accompanied by a background of well thought-through policy and diplomacy leading to long-term stability. The failure in the past has been to leap into military action first and then find that events have run away from us. It is wrong to suggest that I have suddenly become a pacifist and isolationist. The worry is that, if we are not careful, all our failures will make the public become more isolationist and pacifist.
John Woodcock
I offer my humble apologies to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I think I got carried away by the melody of his words, and I am glad that he has set the record straight for the House.
Leaving the moderates to their fate allowed ISIL to pour into rebel-held areas in north-east Syria and establish a stronger base from which it has been able to spread and grow into the monster that we see today. Perhaps most importantly of all, it sent a message to the extremists that we simply no longer had the will to take a stand. President Obama drew a red line over chemical weapons use, and it was crossed. What happened? Not a great deal.
Let us remind ourselves of what has happened in Syria over the past year. About 10.8 million people now require humanitarian aid and 9 million have been displaced. Also, 3 million refugees have spilled over to the country’s neighbours, overwhelming Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon, and winter is coming. The public are understandably weary of perpetual conflict, but they also rightly demand that we do what is necessary to keep Britain safe. That is necessary if we value our way of life, our personal security and our living standards sustained through trade with other nations. If we value those things, we have no choice but to confront this evil, this perversion of the true faith of Islam.
The only choice will not be whether we intervene, but when and how. The longer we delay, the greater the threat will become and the more we will ultimately have to sacrifice to defeat it. The next 9/11—or worse—will come, and it will happen with us knowing that, had we acted sooner, we could in all likelihood have prevented it. That would be the real betrayal of those who have lost their lives fighting for their country. It would also be an abdication of our responsibility to lead.
Britain should therefore be at the forefront of efforts to engage in an international coalition to prevent ISIL from creating a permanent state intent on jihad against the west. We should be planning not only for the military action that is needed to beat back the immediate threat but for a concerted international effort to create the environment that moderate forces in the region need to bring greater stability to the middle east, and we should be helping them to eliminate the social, economic and political conditions that allow the extremists to thrive. ISIL’s twisted ideology is the greatest threat to global security and to our values since Nazi Germany and, as happened at the time of the rise of the Nazis, we will all ultimately be held to account for what we did, or did not do, to confront the threat when we had the chance.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I shall try to rise to the challenge of fitting as many major international crises into six minutes as other hon. Members have managed to do so well.
In Ukraine, we face a profound crisis on a number of levels. For the people of Ukraine, it is clearly a great humanitarian disaster. For the Ukrainian nation already suffering the annexation of Crimea, there is the continued risk of the loss of territory and the establishment of a Russian puppet state within its borders. The independence of the Ukrainian nation, which is guaranteed by the United Kingdom through the Budapest memorandum, could be rendered meaningless by military and economic intimidation from its more powerful neighbour.
For the free countries of eastern Europe, particularly the Baltic states, this crisis has resurrected old fears of Soviet-style intervention and domination. I welcome the consensus in the House and in the NATO declaration at the weekend on the absolute article 5 commitment to Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. To draw a really ominous historical parallel without being too melodramatic, we need to communicate that absolute commitment much more clearly than our predecessors did 100 years ago to the central powers. The misunderstanding and underestimation of people’s willingness to react was a major contributor to the July crisis that led to the first world war.
Mr Gray
The hon. Gentleman draws our attention to the absolute commitment to article 5 made at the NATO conference at the weekend. He will be aware that article 5 specifies that armed intervention would require a collective response. Does he believe that an asymmetric approach, such as that used by Putin in Ukraine, would commission an article 5 moment?
Martin Horwood
The hon. Gentleman raises an issue that requires more than five minutes’ discussion, but he underlines the point that I was trying to make. We need to be clear about the definition of our commitment under article 5 and understand what it really means, and we need to communicate that to all the parties involved.
For the people of Russia, there is also a risk. There is a risk of economic decline, of diplomatic confrontation and of a descent at domestic level into a kind of quasi-democratic authoritarianism. I pay tribute to those within the Russian political system who are brave enough to confront Putin and his tendencies. They include members of the Liberal Democrats’ sister party, Yabloko, who are being profoundly brave in challenging Putinism in Russia.
For the international community, the crisis puts at risk 70 years of painstaking building of a rules-based international system. In the 20th century, millions of lives were lost in two world wars, and in the 19th century, countless lives were lost in conflicts between the great powers and as a result of the interplay between people exercising the principle that might was right. We hope that the 21st century will be a century of peace, in which the authority of the United Nations and international law are established and in which nations stand by their international obligations. We can now see, however, that that precious creation is perhaps more fragile than we had realised.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
We have heard a compelling speech from the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), about the importance of investing in our own institutions. Is my hon. Friend suggesting that we also desperately need to invest in the legitimacy and authority of international institutions such as NATO and the chemical weapons convention, so that we have legitimate frameworks within which to intervene in these situations?
Martin Horwood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
One of the most welcome aspects of the NATO summit was the firm declaration on defence spending, which I hope will reverse the tendency across other NATO countries to reduce defence budgets and encourage all NATO countries to meet the 2% defence spending target. The patience of the American electorate will not be endless with regard to providing an ever-greater share of NATO spending.
I look forward to EU Councils reinforcing our commitment to economic sanctions and to effective action in the face of Russian aggression in Ukraine. It has been difficult for member states to build a consensus on that question, given that some economies are extremely vulnerable to Russian retaliation, but we need the European Union to be as robust in its response as NATO has been at the weekend.
We are seeing a profound crisis across the Muslim world—an “arc of instability”, as the Foreign Secretary has described it. Only four years ago, many of us were thrilled by the Arab awakening, which seemed to emulate the gradual revolutions of eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Latin America and Africa, all of which have suffered reverses as well. Those movements all demonstrated that a commitment to human rights and democracy was a universal characteristic of people in the modern world. These are not western values; they are human values that we should champion in all parts of the world.
Democrats in many of those Arab awakening revolutions confronted very traditional, authoritarian dictators and, in doing so, they found some convenient but perhaps uncomfortable allies, in various shades of political Islamism. In Egypt, the Islamists in the relatively more moderate Muslim Brotherhood rose to elected power, but, unfortunately, the incompetent Morsi Government inspired almost a counter-revolution and we are now back in an authoritarian situation. In Syria, as we know, the murderous Assad regime reacted to the Arab awakening with uncompromising brutality of a kind that we probably could not have imagined was possible, so the Islamists were alongside democrats in confronting that regime. I am sorry to say that the Islamists have got more and more extreme, and they have gathered more and more resources and financial and military support from elsewhere. We have allowed our fears of repeating the mistakes of Iraq, of body bags and of improvised explosive devices, and our understandable weariness of war, to result in our failing the democratic opposition in Syria in many respects; the Islamists have gained the upper hand.
That situation should never, however, lead us to believe that those moderate democratic Arabs do not exist—that the democratic opposition is non-existent. Our inaction has had consequences for them, and it has led this country to have a policy across the Arab world that has at times looked very inconsistent, fragmented and reactive. We need a strategy, and it should be to stop looking for perfection and start to identify those moderate Arab democrats across the region who share a basic commitment to pluralism, democracy and peaceful change. That includes the democratically elected Governments of Turkey, Lebanon, Kurdistan—I am talking not just about Arabs of course, but about those within the region—and, we hope, those of Iraq and Libya, if its Government can be sustained. It also includes democratic leaders such as Mahmoud Abbas in Palestine. The inconsistency of British policy there is also very obvious, and Palestinian statehood and a re-examination of the association agreement with Israel have to be part of delivering dividends for a progressive democratic Arab leader in that part of the region, too.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
It is beautiful to follow the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), because he calls for a strategy and then delivers a list of tactical responses which do not amount to a strategy.
Tonight’s debate is not just about Ukraine and the middle east, because, as we can see from the Order Paper, it is about a number of reports by the Defence Committee. We on that Committee were looking ahead to the strategic review in 2015 and produced a number of papers that should guide what a proper security and defence review should look like. One report was entitled “Intervention: Why, When and How?” and in the context of today’s debate it may be useful to remind the House of the conclusions we drew. The report states:
“As a starting point the Government must articulate a realistic vision of the UK’s place in the world, its level of strategic influence and the way the world is changing as well as the identification and prioritisation of the risks to it. The next Defence and Security Review should then translate this vision into defence planning assumptions and the development of the appropriate force structure. This would assist more strategic decisions on why, when and how to intervene.”
It is right to say that in the current world we cannot have the perfect plan. As the great strategist Mike Tyson put it, “You have a plan and then someone punches you in the face.” We can respond to being punched in the face in a way that is strategic only if we have some framework within which we operate. That framework has to be a clear definition of what we think our national interests are. We then need a plan that it is possible to put into action. It is no good having a list of aspirations if they do not give us any means of acting. We then require the disciplined community to put the actions into effect, which also requires an assessment of our capacity. .
The problems caused by an absence of a proper strategy have been shown in many ways in today’s debate. We talk about air strikes, but bombing is not a strategy. Why are we even considering those air strikes? We debated no-fly zones over and air strikes on Libya, and the error we made was in thinking that removing Gaddafi meant “job done”. Instead, it should have been the first step for further strategic implementation of a long-term plan. We talk about NATO as if it was not a membership organisation but an alternative body to which we defer. We are NATO! May I also remind the House that the big mistake we make is that we regard this country as the second most important member of NATO? The UK is not, because the second most important member, after the United States, is Turkey. Let us consider what the world looks like from the point of view of Turkey. It has the Black sea on one side, Syria on the other. Turkey is the country of the fall-out of the Ottoman empire and the Sykes-Picot agreement. That is all now coming back to haunt Turkey and those around it. Let us be clear that NATO makes decisions and that we are part of the decision making.
Let us also be clear that the problems we face in the eastern Mediterranean at the moment relate to whether the Sykes-Picot agreement is falling apart. If it is, what do we do about it? In 1916, Britain was the guardian of that agreement, whereas after world war two the United States was. From what we can see, the United States is now no longer willing or able to be that guardian, so that role must be played through a restoration of functioning nation states within that area which can deliver things. Some of the states there are functioning: Iran, Israel, Turkey and, for the moment, Jordan. It is crucial that we continue supporting Jordan. The question is how do we support the countries in between to become functioning nation states? If we end up with the creation of a caliphate and that is the solution, we will be haunted for centuries to come.
This process requires not only military weapons, but weapons of the mind. Bombing is an element of defeating people militarily, but in the long term this is a battle for the minds and hearts of a generation. We can win that battle only if we have a strategy that involves our own values. If we cannot define where we want to go, we will be incapable of ever knowing whether we have arrived. If we just make a little list of things to do, we are just like a fifth-former with a shopping list, so we should clearly explain why we are doing things. Let me give one example. A week ago, it was, apparently, not in Britain’s national interest to arm the Kurds, and many Labour Members thought that was wrong, but yesterday we are told that we are now doing so. The Government must learn to explain their actions within the framework of Britain’s national interest to this House so that we can give informed consent.
I hope that the Minister will tell us what we think about the illegal annexation of Crimea, because we have fallen very quiet on that. The former Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), said that it was a fait accompli. It may be that, but I would be deeply saddened if that was the Government’s starting position.
Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)
A number of things about ISIS are clear: it is well funded; it is very well organised; and it has a comprehensive, complex and sophisticated communications strategy. None of those things happened overnight, and it is legitimate for us to ask why we did not pick up on some of those trends earlier. Did we know about ISIS? Were we aware that ISIS is, in the Prime Minister’s words, the greatest threat to us in a generation? If we were aware, why did we not act sooner? If we did not know, we need to ask questions of our intelligence and diplomatic services, but they are questions for another time.
We also know clearly the sort of threats that ISIS poses. We have seen the humanitarian threat to those unfortunate enough to fall within the territory it controls and the barbaric ways in which people have been treated. We are clear about the threat of destabilisation to the region and the fact that ISIS potentially threatens an all-out religious war in one of the world’s most unstable regions. We are also aware that it could become the university of jihad if it is allowed to establish a caliphate, and that will be exported to countries such as the United Kingdom. It is also clear that we in the west must accept the failures in our foreign policy, not least with Iraq where we have indulged and over-tolerated the Maliki Government when it was clear that they were failing in their promise and their duty to establish a Government of national unity.
The question is what do we do to deal with ISIS in the immediate future and then in the longer term. As has been said, we need to deal with it financially. It is difficult to stop oil being sold on the black market, but we must try and try harder with our allies who might be able to exert some leverage. We need to stop the flow of finances through the international banking system and ensure that ransoms are not paid. Paying a ransom is financing jihad, and we must not do that no matter how difficult that is. We must stop the double dealing of some of the countries and groups in the region that are making it extremely difficult for ourselves and our allies to bring this matter to a successful conclusion.
Then there is the question of whether we should involve ourselves in military action. As I and many others have said before, there are a number of questions that we need to answer before we can get involved in military action: what does a good outcome look like; are we able to engineer a good outcome; do we have to be part of such engineering; and how much future liability do we want to hold as a consequence?
What is clear is that our allies in the region simply do not have all the military capabilities they require to deal with ISIS on the ground. They do not have the ability to make the strategic air attacks that will deal with command and control and the ISIS supply lines. If it comes to a ground counter-offensive, they will require close air support. There is no point in us trying to will the outcome without being prepared to will the means. I was very impressed, as I always am, by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) who, like my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), spoke about a battle of ideas. We must understand that this battle, like all battles, is one of ideology, and we must be careful about the western liberal tendency to allow wishful thinking to overtake critical analysis.
We need to understand one thing, which is that there are people out there who hate us. They do that not because of what we do or where we intervene but because of who we are and what we stand for—our values, our system of Government and our belief in basic rights.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making a very impassioned speech with which I agree. May I just take him—[Interruption.] I am so sorry but I do not feel well.
Dr Fox
I hope that my hon. Friend feels better.
All conflicts are battles of ideology. That is particularly true of those who return from the region having been involved in jihad in support of ISIS. When the Home Secretary winds up the debate, I hope she will make it clear that in this country we have no place for the concept that someone can take a sabbatical from civilisation and then apologise and come back as though nothing has happened. There has to be a price for those who take up arms against their own country by proxy.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border made an interesting point about resourcing our security services. It is worth mentioning that we spend on GCHQ, the security services and Secret Intelligence Service in a year what we spend every six days on the national health service. As a country, we must think about our priorities and just how high up that level of priority the security of our people is. Supposedly, that is the first duty of Government.
Sir Nicholas Soames
I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. Does he agree that the tragedy of that is that those services are some of the most important to this country and feature so very largely in some of our most important relationships?
Mr Straw
Does the right hon. Gentleman also accept that the welcome decision by both parties to have a larger aid programme cannot be a substitute for money spent on the more difficult areas of intelligence and diplomacy? As our aid programme increases so too must our diplomatic programme.
Dr Fox
I would go further and say that our national security and the need for hard power in a hard world should, in a time of financial constraints, take precedence over our aid programme.
I was involved in an interesting discussion at a meeting in Paris. I asked why it was that during the cold war we were willing to use the term “better” when it came to our values. For example, we would say that democracy was better than totalitarian rule, free markets were better than command economies and freedom was better than oppression. But when it comes to debates about Islamic fundamentalism, we are not willing to use the word “better”. I believe that religious tolerance is better than enforced orthodoxy, and that equal rights for women are better than women being second-class citizens. When I raised that point, I was told, “Well, nowadays, we can’t really say ‘better’. Things are just different.” If we believe that our values are different and not better, why should we believe, let alone convince anyone else, that they should follow what we have? We in the west are what we are not by accident but because of the value path that we have chosen to take. All the battles that we will face are to do with ideology, belief and values. It is not the capability of the west—of this country or the United States—that has been called into question; it is our will to enforce what we believe by peaceful means or others. If we are not willing to stand up for our values as a country, we will not only fail to shape the era of globalisation but diminish ourselves in the longer term.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
In addition to being a member of the Defence Committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), I also chair the Causeway Institute, a small non-governmental body in Northern Ireland, which is involved in peace building in the region.
I welcome the opportunity to have this debate and support the broad thrust of the Government’s approach on these issues. In Ukraine and in eastern Europe generally, it is important that we stand alongside our friends and that we recognise what Russia is trying to do. We are talking about not just Crimea and eastern Ukraine, but what Russia has been doing for some time in places such as Transnistria, Moldova, South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia. There is a deliberate strategy to foment conflict and then for those conflicts to be frozen in a way that creates instability and gives the Russians influence in those regions.
The role of Poland is important. I was there just last weekend, and heard how concerned it is about what is happening in Ukraine. It is vital that we stand alongside countries such as Poland and the Baltic states. We need to reassure them that we will not countenance any situation in which they may face attack or incursion on to their territory.
We have mentioned the role of the European Union, but I have heard nothing about the role of the Council of Europe, which embraces most of eastern Europe and has a role to play in opening up dialogue on the long-term issues. Russia is a member of it. I wish to hear more about the Council of Europe—our place in it and its role in the difficulties that exist in eastern Europe—because it is tasked with the responsibility of promoting human rights and respect for the rule of law, and building democracy, and those are precisely the kind of issues that are at stake in relation to the situation in Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Some pastors and deacons from Ukraine visited Northern Ireland. Recently, one of those pastors was shot and two of the deacons were tortured and killed. What should the Government be doing to aid those displaced and suffering Christians?
Mr Donaldson
Whether in Ukraine and eastern Europe or the middle east, there is a recurring theme of religious intolerance and the persecution of religious minorities. We saw that not only in Ukraine, but especially in the middle east—the Christian minority has been targeted Syria, Iraq, Libya and other countries in the region. The religious persecution of the Yazidi minority in northern Iraq had devastating consequences.
We want the UK Government to take a robust position against ISIS and Islamic extremism, and we are prepared to support military action where that is required. We hope the Government will consult the House as the need arises.
It is right to support the Iraqi army and the Kurdish peshmerga forces. I welcome the Government’s important decision to provide heavy armaments to them, but the point was made about Turkey. We need to reassure Turkey that, in arming the peshmerga, there are not longer-term consequences for the situation between Turkey and the Kurds. It is a complex situation and we realise that the decisions that need to be made are difficult and challenging.
The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made an excellent speech and some valid points. Democratic Unionist party Members endorse the view that there is a need to ensure that the Foreign Office and the security services, our eyes and ears throughout the world, are properly resourced. Like many hon. Members, I have seen the valuable work that our diplomats and security services undertake in foreign places. That work is vital to our national security, and properly resourcing it is important.
Countering the narrative of the extremists is also important. One difficulty is the lack of consensus among western nations and others on how we should do that and on what the counter-narrative should be. Our narrative is about religious tolerance and respect for human rights, but we need to find a way to communicate it, especially to young people in those countries through social media and so on. We should support locally based organisations that work to counter the extremists’ narrative, such as the Arab Network for Tolerance, a small, modest organisation that seeks to promote respect for human rights, religious tolerance and so on in Arab countries. It is important that we do our bit to ensure that such organisations have support from the UK.
Yes, the use of hard power is necessary at times, but support for what we do on a soft-power level is critical. We need to counter the narrative and explain our role in the world. How can we be involved with our allies in championing the cause of human rights and respect for religious freedom, and in promoting tolerance? The UK has a leadership role to play in that, whether in eastern Europe or the middle east. We will continue to support the efforts of the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and others in taking the battle against the extremists forward.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
We should talk more and bomb less. I say that as someone who wants us to have strong defences. I want our country to play a leading role in the world and to be available, with the UN and allies, or if necessary on our own, to reinforce our values. I accept that there are occasions when we have to fight a just war. We were right to liberate Kuwait with our allies, and we were right to liberate the Falklands, but we need to ask ourselves some hard questions about some of the military interventions we have made under Governments of both parties in recent years.
I am glad that the Government accept that we can go to war only if the House approves such action, which I think has always been the case, and I am glad that they recognise that that is the most serious thing we can do. We have the power, collectively, to authorise our troops to go to kill other people in a foreign country. That is a very serious thing to do, and it should be done only after full debate and, if necessary, on a vote of the House to show that it has at least majority approval—it is even better when there is consensus.
To guide the Government, whether we are approaching such a position again or not, they should ask themselves these questions. First, are they sure that diplomacy and politics have broken down completely and that there is no further scope for diplomacy and politics to carry the problem forward and try to make it better? War is not a good answer. It is what happens when politics and diplomacy fail.
Secondly, after we win a war—even if we have had a great victory, as the allies had in 1918—we need to go back to politics and diplomacy and get it right. Otherwise, we might find that we have created a worse monster that requires yet more conflict, as we are in danger of proving in the middle east. The west has the power to get rid of a regime it does not like, but it does not necessarily have the power to support and create a democratic regime in its place that has the acceptance of enough people in the country to keep it together and make it a better place. It is not a win if we get rid of a nasty dictator and replace them with warring bands who kill even more people.
We need to get the Government to ask whether diplomacy has failed and whether the situation is one in which the use of force, if successful, is likely to make the situation better. If we are going to use force, can we please have a diplomatic and political strategy for the aftermath of successful military engagement? We need to know what military success looks like, but more importantly, we need to know how military success leads to a happier country, democratic values, tolerance and toleration, and all the things we believe in. When we inject more weapons and fighting into a situation, we normally make people not more tolerant, but more intolerant. We make them not happier, but more resentful. We also do enormous damage to their economy, so there are fewer ways for the people who believe in peace and our values to earn an honest living, carry on a normal life and create the kind of society we would like to live in.
If the previous two questions have been answered in the right way—if diplomacy cannot work, and if force might make things better—the third question our Government should ask before using force is this: do we have the force necessary to do the task? We must not send our forces into battle if there is a danger or a serious risk that they cannot win. We do not have that luxury when we are defending our country, but when we are deciding whether to intervene somewhere else, we have the luxury of asking whether we can win, or whether we can win with the right allies. We should want the odds to be very heavily tipped in favour of success if we are interfering in somebody else’s country.
There are common characteristics to the current conflicts and civil wars. Ukraine, Libya, Syria and Iraq all have the same basic problem: fledgling or difficult democracies do not command the support of all the people in the country. Many people believe that their state does not have the right borders. Many people believe that their current Government, be it a tyrant or an allegedly democratic Government, do not speak for all the people or protect the minorities. Many people inside Ukraine, Iraq or Libya do not believe that there is a solution for them inside their countries as they are currently constituted.
Surely, as the mother of Parliaments, with our democracy and our knowledge that one proceeds by debates, argument and votes, not bullets and bombs, we need to put a lot more effort into talking those people through how democracy works and into trying to work with them to see whether it is possible to get consent from enough people to these arbitrary borders, which were probably drawn on the map by us 100 years ago under very different circumstances, or whether they need to have ballots, as Scotland currently is, to see whether they want to remain in these countries. I am not going to presume and I do not have the time to redraw lines on maps, as that must come from the politicians in those localities, but the tools to solve these problems are arguments, discussions, debates, pamphlets, the internet and votes—what we believe in—not bombs and bullets. We should be very careful before we either supply them with more bombs and bullets or go in thinking that we know the right people to kill.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
I spent seven years as special envoy on human rights in Iraq, so I visited the country on many occasions and would like to welcome the new Government, who have a very difficult task. They still have to deal with long-standing problems such as the sharing of oil revenues, disputed territory and arguments over decentralisation as well as much needed reform of the armed forces. As one commentator argues, those who hope that a new Government in Iraq will transform the state’s ability to take on ISIS should not hold their breath.
One commentator who frequently appears before the Foreign Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, is Jane Kinninmont of Chatham House. She points out that our long history of involvement in that country is not a happy one:
“pinning all the blame on Maliki conveniently absolves the US and UK of responsibility for helping to create a political system where violence and sectarianism are the usual mechanisms for staying in power. Over the past 30 years, the west first supported and armed a genocidal dictator, then crippled the country with sanctions that failed to remove him, then invaded the country and dismantled the state and army. After 2003, the US and UK helped design a system of sectarian ‘power-sharing’ where ‘power-sharing’ means carving up government ministries—made extremely lucrative by raging corruption—between a tiny elite drawn from each ethnicity and sect.”
Given that the full-scale invasion and occupation for several years from 2003 onwards struggled to pacify Iraq, air strikes alone are not likely to succeed. After all, ISIS controls large amounts of territory, population and natural resources and is consequently far better funded than the Sunni resistance that so troubled US forces after the 2003 invasion. What is more, air strikes are likely to result in civilian casualties as ISIS forces hide among the civilian population. That is conceivably its aim: to provoke the west into military action that hurts Muslim civilians, thus supporting its narrative of the west’s war on Islam.
The speed and scale of the crisis mean that Iraq is now coping with one of the largest internally displaced populations in the world. Before the current crisis, there were already thousands of refugees in Iraq, including more than 200,000 Syrians who had fled the civil war in their country. The national Government and the Kurdistan Regional Government, in an area where many refugees and IDPs are located, have been overwhelmed by the scale of the need. Iraqi non-governmental organisations have also been struggling to cope with a massive increase in the number of people needing their assistance.
Following the fighting and deliberate targeting of civilians, particularly minorities, and the widespread violence and atrocities against men, women and children, protection remains a key concern. Many survivors of the violence have lost everything and are deeply traumatised. Although it is the Government’s responsibility to protect citizens from harm, NGOs and other humanitarian actors work to ensure that the most vulnerable are taken care of and have access to services. As well as the need for food, water, sanitation and health care, the need for shelter is paramount. At present, more than 30% of the displaced people are living with host communities or in schools or religious buildings. Only 4% are in camp settings. The most at-risk groups are minority populations with few or no established links with the host communities as well as those living in abandoned buildings, in overcrowded conditions or in the open. The approaching winter in the north is a particular concern as people will face harsh conditions.
In a very good report from Amnesty International, people who are on the ground at the moment described the terrible living conditions:
“While we are there, a truck arrives and hands out…mattresses, but there are not enough to go around. A group of children fight over the last mattress; it ends in tears for those who will spend another night on hard ground. Many of the children have no shoes and the adults ask us to take photos of the swollen, broken, hard skin on their feet, to show the world what they are experiencing.”
I believe that we have a moral responsibility to act quickly to support the communities who have been displaced. That is critical at this time. We cannot expect the Kurds to do that job on their own.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
There is one thing on which every single speaker in this debate and everyone who is watching it from outside will agree—at this moment we live in an extraordinarily dangerous, difficult and complex world, a world we do not understand and in which all our livelihoods, interests and ways of life are under threat. I pay absolute tribute to the very heavyweight, well informed and passionate speeches that we have heard so far, typified by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who has great knowledge of Iraq.
I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I stood against him for the post of Chairman of the Defence Committee, and this is my first opportunity to say that I am very glad he won. He is doing an extremely good job of it and I congratulate him on that.
I hope that I will not reduce the high quality of the debate if I do not focus on Ukraine, Syria or the rest of the difficulties mentioned in the topic of this debate as much as on two procedural points. I hope they will not be unduly dry for the House, but there are many others better qualified than I to speak on the substantive matters that we are debating.
First, I very much welcome the fact that we have this full day’s substantive debate. That would not be the case if it had not been announced by the Prime Minister during PMQs last week and that is quite wrong. We usually have to compete with Backbench Business Committee debates on very worthy and worthwhile things such as animals in circuses. We used to have full, substantive debates in this House on foreign affairs and on defence, and I very much hope that we can find a way of returning to those days. At times like this, we ought to be certain that we can have full debates on these matters.
The second procedural matter I want to raise involves me in what might be described as a putative declaration of interests. Later this afternoon I will be launching a book that I have written entitled, “Who Takes Britain to War?” I have not earned a single penny from it so far. Indeed, most of my friends probably reckon that I will not earn very many pennies from it in future either, and may never have to declare it. None the less, it is pertinent to the remarks that I intend to make.
It is very easy to say that we should have a vote in this House before we deploy soldiers. Of course, that is an easy and a populist thing to say—most people would agree with it. In the past 500 years, we have taken part in umpteen wars. There is only one year since the second world war when a British soldier has not been killed on active service—1968. In every other year we have lost a British soldier on active service. We have taken part in dozens of wars over the years, but on only two occasions have there been substantive votes prior to the deployment of troops. The first was in 2003, when Mr Blair took us to war in Iraq; there were three votes on that occasion. I suspect that not a single person listening to this debate believes that that was the right thing to have done. The second vote was this time last year, on Syria. It may well have had the right outcome, but frankly it was something of a procedural shambles, and I am not certain that we would necessarily want the same thing to occur in future.
My view, and the view I advance in the book, is that there are substantial difficulties in calling for a vote in the way that is very easily done. First, Back Benchers have to be alerted to often secret intelligence, the strategic position and the tactical position on the ground. The Government’s legal advice has to be shared with people like me. We have to rise above vulgar considerations such as votes in a forthcoming general election and do what is right for the nation and for the world. I am not certain that politicising warfare in that way is at all the right thing to do.
My co-author, Mark Lomas QC, thinks that it is wrong to have a vote in this House on every single military action. He would like us to preserve the royal prerogative that we have always used for the past 500 years. I think that genie is out of the bottle and we cannot go back to the days when the Prime Minister and the Executive simply did what they wanted to do. None the less, there are substantial difficulties involved in having substantive votes. For example, if we have the new NATO rapid reaction corps that the Prime Minister announced last weekend, it will have two days to go into action, and it will do so under the control of NATO, not of this House. What if this House disagrees with NATO—or the United Nations, for that matter?
I am therefore seeking to advance the thesis that we must find a new way of doing this. The solution I propose is that we write into law the parameters under which we would go to war. The easiest one would be the age-old theory of just war. That lays down the reasons for warfare, about which we could have a huge debate, including the parameters under which we would decide to go to war. It also lays down the way in which we conduct war—the Geneva conventions are based on the theory of just war—and the way in which we conclude wars: what we do after a war has ended and how we treat enemies and those who have been defeated.
Such theories are as old as the hills and as good as they ever have been. If we were to write them into the law of the land in this House, we would allow the Executive and the Prime Minister to take the country to war as they do at present, but they would no longer do so under the royal prerogative; they would do so under what I would like to call the parliamentary prerogative. It is this House that would lay down precisely what the Executive should do in the future. I think that is a much better way of doing it than bogging ourselves down in votes that we might or might not win.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
May I first say that I very much enjoyed and agreed with the remarkable speech by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood)? I seldom agree with him. We were not exactly the best of friends when he was Secretary of State for Wales, but his contribution today was remarkable and I was very pleased to hear it. I also agree with the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) that we need to toughen up our stance on Israel.
I want to concentrate my remarks on Iraq, Syria and the ISIL threat. The middle east is, evidently, in a state of crisis and the need for humanitarian aid is overwhelming. I would be lying, however, if I said that I was happy that the drumbeat of war seems to have started again. I understand that earlier this week the Prime Minister and the American President contacted the leaders of Gulf states in a bid to secure support for military intervention in both Iraq and Syria. Yes, the circumstances are different, but those of us who were here in 2003 will be feeling especially uncomfortable that the rhetoric is being ratcheted up as we edge ever closer to entering another unwinnable war in the region. Those of us who were against the incursion in 2003 had warned of the dangers of entering into a conflict that would result in a power vacuum in Iraq.
On 24 September, a United Nations summit will meet in New York to discuss the ongoing situation. To continue the comparison with what happened in 2003, I am grateful that that is happening, but we still cannot be complacent about the dangers of mission creep. It is, after all, largely down to the UK’s own incursion into Iraq a little more than 10 years ago that that part of the world is in such dire straits today.
Let us not deceive ourselves: this state of affairs cannot somehow be solved by western military intervention. The situation is, of course, complex and volatile, and will require the decisive involvement of moderate powers in the region, including Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon. In the short term, if the involvement of the international community is to gain support in the region, we will presumably need to engage with states that are considered to be stable, such as Syria, and this House will need to ruminate very carefully indeed on the implications of that.
In recent weeks, the Prime Minister has argued that the old maxim, “My enemy’s enemy is my friend,” will certainly not apply in this situation. As we know, however, the turnover of events is so rapid and the ramifications so critical that the UK may not have the opportunity to stick to that principle. I am by no means advocating such a course of action—indeed, I would evidently hesitate before entering into any conflict in the region—but I think that Members on both sides of the House should be aware of what this could lead to.
Over the weekend, the former US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger—yes, he of the Contras in Nicaragua—argued that the US should launch an “all-out attack” on ISIL extremists after the killing of its citizens, saying that it was a direct “insult”. Speaking to The Sunday Times, Mr Kissinger said that America had failed to appreciate that countries in the middle east yearned for “leadership” from the US and that the latter somehow has a duty to establish a “new order” in the region. This follows an article he published in The Wall Street Journal at the end of August, in which he wrote:
“The concept of order that has underpinned the modern era is in crisis”
due to civil war in Libya, unrest in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, and the resurgence of tensions with Russia.
Henry Kissinger is certainly correct about the notion of order being eroded, but we must not forget that the borders of many states in the middle east have been flashpoints of violence since their very inception. The order he mentions was nothing more than an illusion. That is precisely why we in my party of Plaid Cymru and those in the Scottish National party on whose behalf I am also speaking—we are better together today, by the way—have argued that moderate powers in the middle east should lead any intervention. I fear that any action led by the US and the UK will smack of imperialism, but I do not think that it will come to that.
We of course abhor the brutal and shocking actions that ISIL has undertaken in recent weeks and months, and we are repulsed by the threat to our own communities across the UK from radicalised individuals who return here. We believe that the most effective way to undermine ISIL in its base is to encourage and support elements in their territories who hold contrary views. We recognise the need to arm the Kurdish forces. The Kurds are a minority whose plight we have long supported in times of relative peace, and their right to self-defence is absolute.
In spite of what the Prime Minister has said in recent days, I believe that we need a full debate and a vote, and I am gratified that the Secretary of State said that today. However, I cannot help feeling that we have been here before. We must be aware that ISIL is a successor to al-Qaeda, so another force would be likely to follow in the wake of ISIL being destroyed. Full-blown western intervention is likely to lead to the further radicalisation of another generation of disaffected Muslims in the area and across the world. We should play our part in aiding those who need help, but we must be honest about our previous complicity in bringing about the latest instability. We can assist such states towards finding new cohesion, but if Iraq and Afghanistan have taught us anything it is the assertion that a new order cannot be imposed, but must be nurtured.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Listening to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has underlined for me that we are in danger of having quite a serious debate in this House for a change. There have been a great many very thoughtful speeches, despite their enforced brevity, which I will seek to match.
My Committee, the Public Administration Committee, produced two reports about strategy early in this Parliament. I may be flattering myself, but strategy—and the word “strategy”—seem by osmosis to have got more into the currency of our thinking.
Before I talk about strategy, let me briefly address the question of the role of the House of Commons in the decision to go to war. It is an interesting debate, and I am intrigued that a former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), should describe the royal prerogative as some kind of out-of-date relic given that most of the powers that Ministers continue to exercise—including the power to go to war, whether or not there has been a vote in this House—are in fact royal prerogative powers.
The debate threatens to be sterile, however, because it has never been the case in modern times that any Prime Minister would consider going to war unless they felt that they could command the confidence of the House of Commons, whether they took the decision before or after consulting it. Nothing has changed: whether there should be a debate is not a matter of religious or constitutional doctrine. The responsibility for taking such a decision and for providing leadership on whether to take the country to war and commit our armed forces to military action goes with the seals of office as Prime Minister. The idea that that can be subcontracted to the House of Commons, where all the armchair generals—well, we do not sit in armchairs—and amateur strategists can add their pennyworth and then decide the issue, is a great mistake. We do not want to lose sight of the fact that the Government propose; the House of Commons disposes.
Paul Flynn
Was the hon. Gentleman’s faith in the value of a grand strategy not dented by the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who said that his experience of the National Security Council was of astonishing events that nobody expected and nobody had planned for? A grand strategy carved in stone would be useless.
Mr Jenkin
I must remind the hon. Gentleman, who has sat in Committee with me for many hours listening to evidence about this, that strategy is not the same as having a plan. Yes, a plan may be knocked off course by events, but that does not mean that we should relinquish all the means or methods of reformulating the plan. That is what strategic thinking is about, and I shall apply further thought to that in my speech.
Let us face it: if we sweat about whether to take military action and that dominates our entire debate, we are missing the point. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe on that. Our debate should be about the context in which we are making that decision. The decision should flow out of that context, not be the subject of the debate itself.
The Foreign Secretary demonstrated a laudable strategic perspective after a period of reactive and short-term initiatives, such as the reversal of the policy on Syria after the vote last year, which have left our policy in disarray and, one might even say, paralysis. The period of complete neglect of the Syrian situation has resulted in the ISIS situation that we face. That has not been helped by perhaps the greatest and most silent strategic shock to hit the western world—the almost complete absence of the United States from an active role on the world stage.
The Foreign Secretary still gave us a lot of conflicts. We will consider air strikes in Iraq, but not in Syria, which is the home base of ISIS. We said that we would not provide arms to the Kurds, but now we are. We continue to expect President Assad to stand down, but we will not do anything to make that happen. That has brought about the situation that we are in. The Government’s approach is over-precious about who our friends should be and careless of the consequences of the restraints that that places on our policy. We have to treat President Putin as a pariah, but we might need to use him as an ally to defeat ISIS and stabilise the middle east.
Mr Baron
I am listening intently to my hon. Friend’s comments, some of which I agree with. I suggest to him that perhaps caution is the right course of action for the Government. We must not forget that only recently, in the past 10 years or so, we have been to war in the middle east on a false premise and supported the morphing of the Afghanistan mission from defeating al-Qaeda into the much wider and disastrous mission of nation building. Many would also argue that Libya is turning into a basket case. Surely caution is not a bad thing, given our past errors.
Mr Jenkin
Of course we should exercise caution. I have learned my bitter lessons, having been on the Opposition Front Bench during the vote on Iraq. The decision to go to war blinded us to the wider strategic considerations that should have been at the forefront of our minds. We obsessed about the wrong things. Incidentally, the opponents of war obsessed about the wrong things too. They obsessed about legality, instead of effect. We also sleepwalked into Helmand. I did not have responsibilities at that stage, but it was extraordinary that we did so.
The National Security Council needs a template—a doctrine of thinking—in approaching such matters. That is what I want to discuss in the last few minutes that I have. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe that the greatest immediate threat is not what is happening in Ukraine, the situation in Gaza, Israel and the middle east, however much that preoccupies us, or what is happening in Libya, which is a sideshow, but ISIS. The Prime Minister is right to lay that out as the big threat.
We need a doctrine of counter-insurgency on a global scale. That is not new thinking. There are a few rules that should guide our thinking. We have to secure our home base. The security element of this debate, which has been rather neglected, is the most important thing. How will we protect ourselves from this insurgency? We need to deny the enemy a secure base. I ask Ministers: how can we deny the enemy a secure base if we will not do anything about Syria? We need to starve the enemy of resources. How will we prevent the international money laundering that has been mentioned in this debate? We need to base all activity on the best human intelligence. We cannot plan any sort of campaign if we are guessing or we do not know what is happening on the ground. However, we have cut the resources for that vital part of our capability. We must do our best to remove the underlying political grievances. That is why the middle east peace process is important. It is a tactical consideration in the main strategic objective of containing ISIS.
We need to co-ordinate all actions to a strategic plan, otherwise there will be chaos. We also need to remember that it is, in the end, a battle for hearts and minds and that conflict is about will-power, not physical force. Military action is not necessarily an indication of determination—it can be an indication of despair or weakness. We need to remember that the smallest actions, such as Guantanamo Bay, the development of technology such as mobile phones or apparently innocuous words used in a speech, such as “axis of evil”, can have enormous strategic effects. We need to stay within the law, because if we are trying to defend law it is important that we uphold the law ourselves, and we should use force only as a last resort. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that we have tended to resort to force as an expression of our will-power without applying our will-power to all the other means at our disposal first.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
As we debate these issues, it is not clear whether we will face them as a United Kingdom or as a country forced apart, but I very much hope that we will face them as a United Kingdom in the weeks and months to come.
The shadow of the past is long in debates such as this, particularly the House’s decision just over 10 years ago to go to war in Iraq, but also the decision last year not to intervene militarily in Syria. There is no doubt that past decisions that we have taken have angered jihadists, but although we acknowledge that, it is important also to say that it is a fundamental and dangerous misconception to think that the ideology of Islamist extremism stems only from the decision on Iraq or exists only as a response to western foreign policy. That misconception must be dealt with, because for as long as it prevails, we fail to understand the threat that we face and are encouraged to believe that we can somehow opt out of it.
We should not forget that it was two years before the invasion of Iraq that the attack on 11 September, the anniversary of which is tomorrow, took place. We should not ignore the fact that we took a decision not to intervene in Syria last year, yet today it is the global headquarters of violent jihadist extremism. There has been no western intervention in Nigeria, yet Boko Haram wreaks havoc, kills civilians and kidnaps schoolgirls.
There is an imperialist conceit that suggests that foreign policy is divided into a world of adults, such as the United States and the United Kingdom, and other countries or forces, which are children. It is not true, and it absolves others of responsibility for their actions. We live in a world of adults and adults. No one forces anyone to bomb a marketplace or behead an innocent journalist on video. Those actions are the responsibility of those who carry them out, and it is important that we are clear about that.
The issue is not whether we have to respond but how. Withdrawal from the world’s problems has become quite fashionable—“Nothing to do with us,” “All too difficult,” or even, at its worst, “Let them kill one another.” That is not only morally bankrupt but against our own interests, because in an interconnected world we cannot opt out of facing threats. Violent jihadism has already taken innocent lives in this country and indeed this city, and it can do so again in the future.
The Prime Minister is right to define this as a generational struggle, but definition takes us only halfway. We also have to will the means to respond. President Obama will set out his strategy on the response to ISIS later today, and in all likelihood it will include an element of military response. At some point, we will be asked whether we want to join in and support that action. It is good that we debate that and learn the lessons from the past, but we must not be imprisoned by the past. If we are to set out conditions for joining in action, let us do so, but let us not have an ever-lengthening list of conditions that are designed not as a means of reaching a decision, but rather as a means of never having to take one.
Mr Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. With the thinnest of resources in our Foreign Office and intelligence services, and without the aid or contribution of the United States, what lessons might we draw from what happened recently in Mali and the Sahel, where early intervention was able to repel al-Qaeda, which has been the closest to our shores most recently? Does that show that we need a unity of approach, and development, governance and security at the same time and not as choices? Early intervention to repel the threat has delivered a success, and that is noticeable by its omission during today’s debate.
Mr McFadden
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point and, as has been said several times, it would be wrong to draw the lesson that we have been here before and that intervention is always wrong.
Let me return to the issue of values, because too often we debate such things as though they are only a question of military action or not, and we forget to stress what we believe in and why this threat is so important. The values that we are familiar with are no less important because we are familiar with them: Governments elected by the democratic will of the people and where power passes peacefully if the people change their minds in a subsequent election; equality for men and women; freedom of speech; freedom of religion. In this country, people can go to the mosque on Friday, the synagogue on Saturday, church on Sunday, and many can say that they do not want to go to any of those. Those are fundamental freedoms.
The problem is not Islam. Islam is practised peacefully by millions of people in this country and throughout the world, without doing any harm to anyone. The problem is that strand of perverted religion which says that co-existence is impossible. We must stand for co-existence and for the pluralism of a society that says that there is no single truth that everyone has to sign up to and believe. Pointing a gun at people’s heads and saying, “Convert or die” is the absolute antithesis of the pluralism, democracy and equality in which we believe. This is not just about military action; this is about our values. If we retreat from the world and do not take on this fight, we will end up with a diminished, shrunken Britain. That should not be our vision for the future or what we stand for.
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
This has been an exceptionally good debate and we have covered a lot of ground. I was particularly keen to listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). When he speaks we listen to him with a mixture of shock and awe—if I can use that phrase—and his powerful description of our deficiencies in resources is familiar to any of us who have knocked around that world. He is right. I used to get gasps from any audience I spoke to when I said that the entire budget for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is less than what we spend on the winter fuel heating allowance, including for fairly well-off pensioners. We have got our balances wrong somewhere.
What my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) said about values, which was echoed by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), was important, and in this debate we seem to have got back to some clear and definite points about the things in which we believe. The crisis in the middle east and the world that has forced it should not be lost as an opportunity to develop some of the things we have heard, and I hope that those on the Front Benches will take them forward.
Let me start with a little good news and return to the beleaguered Arab spring. I was in Tunisia yesterday and the day before for a conference on investment entitled, “Start-up Democracy”. Little Tunisia is making its way, and what it is doing should not be minimised. Not only has it been through a difficult political negotiation to get to its current position, but a political Islamist party—Ennahda—gave up power, confounding a lot of assumptions about it. There is a long way to go, but the guidance of Sheikh Ghannouchi in putting his country before his party—some in his party wished to proceed in a different direction—demonstrated an important point of principle: democracy is not only about winning; it is about sharing and losing power, and there are too few examples around the world of how that can successfully be done. In that region, Tunisia’s example is important.
We must not lose sight of what caused the Arab spring: economics, corruption, political sclerosis. Those issues remain, and the region has to tackle them, because they lie at the root of other things we have discussed. Let no one think, either, that we walked away after Libya. Nobody walked away. I spoke to our ambassador, Michael Aron, who is currently based in Tunis, having previously been in Tripoli. The UK and others have worked incredibly hard on the institution building—the democracy building that people would have wanted. Just because we were not there with boots on the ground to separate warring militias—I am not sure anyone would really have wanted that—and just because we tried to address the needs of Tripoli and Libya in a different way, please do not accuse us of walking away from Libya. We never did.
The more someone learns about the region—there is an issue about ministerial training; I have read more about the region since leaving office than I ever read while there, because of the necessities of ministerial life—the more they realise how complex and difficult it is. Almost everything screams, “Don’t touch this. Listen to people who know the region better than you.” One of the lessons of the past is that we need to listen more.
The areas in the region will develop differently. Anwar Gargash, the Deputy Foreign Minister of the United Arab Emirates and a great friend of the United Kingdom, said that stability was paramount and that with that came the preservation of a rich and diverse culture, but his was not just a plea for the status quo. He said that rational evolution should be the process. The whole region is changing, and will continue to do so, but it will change differently in different places.
Turning to the crunch issue, I support a policy of containing ISIS, but in the first place it is likely to involve a military response. I would support strikes on ISIS, but some things need to be done quickly. In the argument about who makes the decisions—this place or the Executive—I tend to side with the Executive. The decision has to be explained to the House, and, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) said, it needs to be part of a narrative we all understand, but it does not help our allies and those we need to work with if we continually have to stop and take decisions in the House. We need to think things through—my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) had some ideas about that—but we have to give the Government the opportunity to take things forward.
Our response should not comprise a deal with Assad, as his butchery is too immense—the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) spoke movingly about that. We can do better. I was in touch with the Free Syrian Army spokesman just this afternoon, and he reminded us:
“We are the west’s partners—we share the west’s values and are protecting our children from terrorism just as you want to protect yours. We are paying in blood for the values of freedom, dignity and justice.”
The FSA is already fighting ISIS on the ground, just as the Kurds are. What is the difference between them? Why should they not get some support as well? There is a deal to be done. The extremists threaten Syria—they threaten Assad and his regime—and in return for work our air forces can do against extremists, is there not something to get negotiators back to the table? I am not talking about Assad—he is expendable to both the Russians and the Iranians—but the remnants of the Syrian regime, together with the FSA, could negotiate, provided the incentive is there, and possibly we can provide it.
Finally, the coalition must be led by those in the middle east, not the west. That offers the best prospect for the future.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). I listened particularly carefully to the important points he made about the Free Syrian Army.
I want to make three brief points. First, the challenges we face today and the nature of global risk and conflict mean that Britain will achieve security for its citizens only if we seek to influence and engage with the world, not retreat from it. Those fighting for ISIL who want to come back and attack this country, and the tragedy of flight MH17, in which one of my constituents lost his life, show that what happens in other parts of the world can and does affect us here in the UK. We must not and cannot pull up the drawbridge, cut ourselves off from others and hope that the rest of the world leaves us alone, because that approach will never deliver security for people in Britain. Instead, we must use our position and international influence—in NATO, on the UN Security Council and, yes, in the European Union too—to provide greater leadership in the world in addressing the challenges and risks that we face.
Secondly—this point has been made by several hon. Members—although we should always learn lessons from the past, we must not be paralysed by it. Iraq understandably casts a long shadow over this House and the country as a whole, but we must focus on the threats and risks we face today and deal with the world as we find it now, not as we might wish it would be. That means taking head-on the argument, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) referred, that somehow our past actions have caused or created ISIL and other forms of Islamic extremism. That is just false. Dealing with the world as we find it also means being clear that although the consequences of action must be fully and seriously considered, so too must the consequences of inaction.
Thirdly, the scale of the challenge presented by ISIL and the threat that its activities and vile ideology pose to the world and to the values that we all hold dear—and which define who we are as a country and as a people—mean that we must keep our options open as to how we respond. That includes the options of who we work with, as well as what we do. We must have a clear objective and strategy and build strong international support, particularly from those in the region, as the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire said. However, we should be clear: ISIL must be defeated, ideologically, financially and militarily. That will be achieved not by hope and good intentions alone, but by carefully considered, hard-headed realism. Sometimes leadership means leading by example. We will not convince our allies to do more against the common threats we face if we refuse or fail to act ourselves.
In conclusion, Britain is at a crossroads, and not just in our foreign policy. One path—attempting to protect ourselves from the changes that are sweeping the world by rejecting them and isolating ourselves from our allies and partners—will lead to a diminished country. The other path understands that we will succeed only if we seek to influence and shape the changes that are taking place around us, including by working with others. In a world that is increasingly interconnected—economically, technically and in terms of security—I believe we should take the second path, because that is the key to our future security and prosperity.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I must begin by apologising for not being present at the outset of the debate; I had a parliamentary obligation outside the House of Commons. However, at least I turned up, which is not something that can be said of Scottish National party Members, who, even as we conduct this debate, are going round Scotland saying that we should have a different and better foreign policy, but have declined the opportunity to come today and to take us, and perhaps the British public in general, into their confidence.
I had the good fortune to hear the speeches of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who has now left us. I recall, as my right hon. and learned Friend will, that he and I went through the No Lobby together when it came to the question of military action against Iraq. Although it was suggested a moment or two ago that legality was perhaps too much in the minds of those who took that course of action, the truth is that unless we are able to persuade the House of Commons that what we are about to do is legal, we will have very little chance of persuading the public outside the House of Commons that what we are proposing to do is in the best interests of the public.
Mr Jenkin
The point was not to criticise any legitimate discussion about legality, although I do not think there was any question about that legality. The problem was that we spent all our time discussing that and talking through the United Nations—it is all that Tony Blair talked to the President of the United States about—instead of asking, “What are we going to do when we get there?” We thought that that discussion had gone on between Tony Blair and the President, but it just had not. That was the real tragedy of that situation.
Sir Menzies Campbell
My recollection is that the discussion was mainly about illegality, and I think the hon. Gentleman does himself and his party a little less well than he could have, because the Conservative spokesman, translated to the House of Lords as Lord Ancram, was among those who were arguing very strongly that there was a complete absence of a plan about what needed to be done after the military action had been successfully concluded. That attitude and those matters were under active consideration by the hon. Gentleman’s own party, even though it had voted to go to war anyway.
Sir Menzies Campbell
I must make some progress, if my hon. Friend will excuse me.
The second speech by which I was considerably influenced was that of the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border, who talked in realistic terms about resources, in particular the resources available to the Foreign Office. I would like to say a few words about the resources available to the three security services, which as it happens are giving evidence to the Intelligence and Security Committee today.
If the threat is increasing and if the analysis is that there is a greater risk of terrorist activity in this country as a result of returning jihadists, one way to begin to seek to meet that threat is by ensuring that those who are on the front line of seeking to disturb or prevent such actions from taking place are properly resourced. That means investing money—and, yes, it means taking money away from other things. We should never forget that the primary duty of any Government is the defence and the security of their own citizens.
Stephen Barclay
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggesting that we should perhaps take money from DFID’s budget, which is often justified in terms of soft power? Last year, for example, it spent £4 million on a Spice Girl-style band in Ethiopia. Should we not be spending that sort of funding on serious diplomatic and intelligence capability?
Sir Menzies Campbell
I think the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) is suggesting that they are alternatives, but they are not. Of course, when we spend as much as we do on soft power, there will be projects of which we disapprove, but there are places in the world that now have clean water that did not have it before, and children getting the kind of vaccinations that they did not get before as a result of our spending so much money in that direction. As for influence, at the United Nations we will find that every country and every permanent representative we talk to will say how much they appreciate—and indeed envy the fact—that the United Kingdom is such a serious contributor to international development.
There have been some criticisms about strategy. I am rather diffident about entering into important strategic discussions with three minutes and 23 seconds in which to do so, but I wish to emphasise my support for the notion of values. Values have been invoked in some thoughtful speeches in the course of this debate—including freedom of speech, the rights of women and the right to free expression. I would like to put it slightly differently and start with the rule of law, which is a fundamental constituent of any democratic society. Human rights are important, too—in a sense, they embrace some aspects of freedom of speech and the rights of women. Democratic structures are important, too, of course. These are the values that have been very substantially copied from this country by many other countries throughout the world, particularly those in the Commonwealth. I think that we should be nothing other than determined—indeed, almost arrogant—in promoting them, because of the stability that they undoubtedly create.
Let me now turn to what has obviously been the single most significant issue in the debate so far: the issue of how to deal with ISIS. The barbarism of ISIS is there for all to see. Like the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), I accept that military action will be required, but, as I understood my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe to say, the last thing that such military action should be is at the instigation of the United States and the United Kingdom, and what we rather loosely used to call the west.
If we want moral authority, and if we want political support throughout the region, we must engage with the countries of that region, which is rather what happened in the first Gulf war. It is often forgotten that in the successful first Gulf war, the first unit to cross the start line was an armoured unit from Saudi Arabia. The coalition that was created in respect of that first Gulf war to expel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was broadly based and substantially supported by Arab nations. If we think that we can go into Iraq or Syria looking for ISIS with only the stars and stripes and the Union jack flying above us, we have no idea of the long-term political difficulties that that would cause, however successful the initial military action might be.
I do not really care whether it is a matter of law, a matter of prerogative or a matter of politics, but before this House endorses military action which would have the result of putting our men and women of the three armed services in danger’s way, the Government should come to the House and explain what they are proposing, and the House should endorse it. Anything other than that will not satisfy public opinion.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The debate is proceeding apace, but I am afraid that I must reduce the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to five minutes.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
If there was ever a time for Britain—the United Kingdom—to play its part in the world as a major, respected and democratic force, it is now. I want to make some comments about the situation in Iraq and Syria, and then say something about what I consider to be the major threat that the country faces in helping the middle east and other problem areas in the world.
The situation in Syria and Iraq will not be resolved merely by air strikes, necessary as they may turn out to be. The Gulf states themselves need to play more of a role there. We are talking about a region that was designed and drawn up according to artificial boundaries between nations, and I think that the problems there are too fundamental to be dealt with simply by means of air strikes. We also need more inclusive governance of countries such as Iraq.
The lesson for me from Iraq over the past quarter of a century, and from Syria and Libya more recently, is that intervention brings its problems, but so does non-intervention. If it was thought a year ago that the Syrian situation was difficult to unpick and resolve, it is surely worse today. The humanitarian situation in and around Syria is dire. Seven million Syrians have been displaced within Syria, and a further 3 million are now displaced outside Syria’s borders, which is causing instability in Turkey, Jordan and Iraq.
Some have said that we should work with Assad to help to defeat ISIL. I am not sure whether I agree with that. I think that we should tread carefully as far as the Assad regime is concerned, especially when we consider the fact that his regime has funded al-Qaeda and ISIL to destabilise Iraq, Syria’s neighbour to the south, and to divide his internal opponents. His sense of self-preservation is acute, and I am very concerned about playing his game.
ISIL is like fog: like the fog, it will only evaporate if heat is applied, but if left alone, it will continue to spread. We must degrade its military assets and leadership, but remain aware that its operation is now embedded in many communities, many of which it wants to destroy, and where civilians could become casualties by our own actions.
It was reassuring to see the NATO communiqué from last week that said:
“We condemn in the strongest terms ISIL’s violent and cowardly acts. If the security of any Ally is threatened, we will not hesitate to take all necessary steps to ensure our collective defence.”
As Benjamin Franklin said,
“We must all hang together. or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
Last week in Wales the United Kingdom hosted the most important NATO summit in decades. More than 50 Heads of State were present, and it was the largest gathering of its kind in UK history. This shows the importance of the UK and its role in the world, and I do not want to see that role diminished. It is a role we have played for decades, if not centuries, and our liberal democracy has not hesitated to defend those values in the darkest of times. Bearing in mind the comments of the Chair of the Defence Committee, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), our diplomatic reach does reach parts of the world few countries can reach. English has become one of the international languages of diplomacy. Our influence in many parts of the world looks after our interests and promotes our values, and the BBC World Service is the envy of the world.
The then Foreign Secretary said in 2010 that
“our international influence will bleed away unless we maintain our international and cultural influence”
as a vital component of our weight in the world. I agree, but the key decisions to be taken by this country over the next three years could leave the country and our role in the world diminished.
If the Scottish people vote next week to leave the Union, and if there is a referendum on leaving the EU by the end of 2017 and we do so, how can this country—or what remains of it—be treated seriously as a world power if what we want to do is retreat from the world and we lack confidence on the world stage, because that would be the result? Those of us who believe in doing what is best for our national interests believe that dividing the Union of the United Kingdom and the union of Europe is clearly not in the national interest. If we go down that path, how long will it be before our permanent seat on the UN Security Council is brought into question?
Abraham Lincoln said in the Gettysburg address that he did not want to see
“government of the people, by the people, for the people…perish from the earth”,
but I think that if we are not careful with the decisions we make in the future for this country, that is what is going to happen.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my co-chairmanship of the all-party group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq and vice-chairmanship of the all-party group on Iraq.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
May I just thank the hon. Gentleman for his sterling work in those areas?
Nadhim Zahawi
I am most grateful—and my head will not get through the double-doors if my hon. Friend carries on like that.
From Mosul to Raqqa, ISIL, at its root, has filled a void, both literally, in terms of governance, and philosophically, in terms of leadership. Here, it has thrived, and while it is our indisputable enemy—a primary security threat to our interests at home and abroad, as we have heard from many Members—a narrow focus on the tactical military solutions for defeating ISIL ignores the fact that the inherent problem is, at its heart, strategic.
We have heard a lot about the need for an inclusive political settlement in Iraq, but what does this really look like? We have been there before. During the Petraeus surge in 2007 we successfully mobilized Sunni tribes to purge al-Qaeda from their midst, but then we abandoned them to Nouri al-Malaki’s extreme sectarianism. How can we support Prime Minister Abadi to make things different this time around? While it is critical that “power sharing” no longer means the carving up of Government ministries into de facto sectarian fiefdoms, as happened under Maliki, or the centralisation of control in Baghdad—again, as Malaki did—ultimately the structure of governance has to give the Sunni tribes, the people on the ground, a personal investment in how they live. The new Cabinet has six new Sunni Ministers—possibly seven, including the Defence Minister—but do they truly represent wider constituencies of Sunnis? We must be mindful that the same faces keep reappearing.
It was positive to hear last night’s announcement of the formation of national guard units that will allow communities to secure their local areas. Such functional federalism and empowerment will be vital in reducing the lure of ISIL. Prime Minister Abadi must go further, however. He must consider having greater local autonomy and a fair political settlement that addresses the constitutional issues that have plagued Iraq since 2005. He must consider revenue sharing, a hydrocarbon law and a referendum on the disputed territories—including, of course, Kirkuk. Given former Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s legacy, restoring trust will not be easy or quick, but if Prime Minister Abadi can bring about a genuinely inclusive political settlement with the Kurds and the Sunnis, half the battle will already have been won. Without such a settlement, however, a unified Iraq will be an impossibility.
We must also recognize that ISIL cannot be defeated in Iraq alone. Syria, the regional safe haven for ISIL over the past three years, is the centre of gravity in this conflict, and it is there that a new push for peace is vital. Having said that, there are ways to do that and ways not to do it, and I can assure the House that aligning with Assad is most certainly not the way to do it. As in Iraq, the solution will be a new inclusive Government who ultimately reduce the appeal of Sunni extremism and who protect minorities, including the Alawites, the Kurds and the Christians of Syria.
To achieve that, the regional actors—including, dare I say it, Iran—must take the lead. We are all aware of the roles that different middle eastern countries have played in directly fuelling conflicts in the region, but the threat posed by ISIL and the unprecedented extent of shared interests between once-mortal enemies can only reinforce the need for the region to move beyond the zero-sum politics that have characterised it for so long. The motivations and limitations of the regional actors will no doubt determine the role that they play in the push-back against this poisonous ideology, but play a role they must. That is not to say that we should not be front and centre in helping them along. Undoubtedly the region looks to us, and to the United States, for leadership and delivery. Twenty years on, John Major is still held in the highest esteem by the Shi’a community and the Kurds for creating the safe haven policy and the no-fly zones.
Crucially, we must act with realism and humility. We must do all we can to support the delicate diplomacy needed to bring in regional partners without alienating others, and to facilitate Iranian and Saudi co-operation with a nuanced understanding of the dynamics and stakes involved.
Stephen Barclay
Does my hon. Friend agree that such leverage could be used in some of the existing disputes between the Baghdad Government and the Kurds?
Nadhim Zahawi
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the things that Iran could bring to bear on Prime Minister Abadi’s Government in Baghdad is the resolution of such issues. The Kurds have not had their budgets since January, and they are struggling to keep their economy going while running the peshmerga campaign against ISIL. That situation could be resolved immediately. We should be playing a part by saying to Iran, “If your intentions are good and you want to behave differently, and if you want us to loosen the sanctions, show us your good intentions in Iraq and in Syria. Then maybe we will be able to take things further with you.”
There will be everything to play for, and there must be co-operation between these regional powers. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) mentioned our NATO allies. Turkey plays a major role in the region, as do partners such as Jordan. I commend His Majesty the King of Jordan for his attempts to bring all the parties together. He did that at the NATO conference as well. Foreign policy is often represented as a choice between instant reaction and quiet passivity, but that is a false dichotomy. We will always act on a spectrum as the environment evolves.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I wish to confine my remarks to the situation in Ukraine. I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), and I will follow his example by beginning my speech by declaring an interest. I am an officer in the all-party group on Ukraine, although I must confess that I cannot remember which particular role I have.
I take it as axiomatic that our aim in Ukraine is to secure peaceful, democratic, political development in that country. By that standard, we are not doing very well. Of course President Putin, for his own internal and external reasons, has done and is doing everything he can to undermine those developments. None the less, I have some questions about the way the UK, as a country and as a member of the EU and NATO, has played its hand; there has been a lot of furious rhetoric but a lack of sombre analysis. The Russians have a strategic interest in a warm-water port in Crimea for the Black sea fleet—we do not. The Russians have a long and close history and relationship with Ukraine—we do not. There is a large Russian-speaking minority in the east of Ukraine, and we are not in that situation. That all means that when push comes to shove, in an open conflict, the Russians are going to be prepared to do more and to push harder than we have and ever would.
Indeed, it is clear that some in eastern Ukraine do not support the Kiev Government and have not supported the association agreement with the EU. Unfortunately, because of the Russian actions it is difficult for us now to see how many people in eastern Ukraine take that view. When I visited Ukraine a couple of years ago, it was clear that the country had weak civil society and weak political institutions. We saw that in the way the Kiev Government were dealing with the problems in eastern Ukraine; there was no proper dialogue but an attempt to impose people on, and control people in, eastern Ukraine. A deeply unsophisticated approach was taken of imposing oligarchs as governors in eastern Ukraine and refusing to listen. We need to look at things again.
During the demonstrations in Maidan square at the turn of the year, the European Union had a tendency to over-promise: to promise more than we have or than we will deliver. Our messages were confused and confusing. Of course, a large number of people and the Kiev Government wanted the EU association agreement, but why did it have to be rushed through in a way that for the Russians was highly confrontational? In July, the Ministry of Defence was briefing that Ukraine is regarded as virtually a member of NATO, which was unhelpful as it created uncertainty and unpredictability in respect of our potential actions in the minds of the Russians. We need to draw a clear distinction between the Baltic states, which are members of NATO, to which we have clear obligations and which have duties and responsibilities to the alliance, and Ukraine, which is not in that situation.
I am not entirely convinced that sanctions are as effective as the Foreign Secretary hopes they are.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend give me some details of what she thinks are appropriate sanctions?
Helen Goodman
One problem is that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) has been saying, it is not clear that small changes in the income of particular individuals will matter very much to President Putin. Edward Lucas said that in his evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee. There is also a problem of corruption, which is not helped by the Tory party taking a lot of money from Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs.
We need to move to a political process to strengthen the political dialogue. On Monday, the Prime Minister agreed that the Russians had legitimate interests in the area, especially in seeing that the Russian minorities are well treated and protected.
The Foreign Secretary talked about effective international monitoring. I am not clear whether he meant the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe or a UN-sponsored plebiscite. We need to know more clearly what the Foreign Office has in mind. What is absolutely clear is that the former British ambassador to Moscow, Tony Brenton, was right when he said that we should stop shouting and start talking.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
This has been a fascinating and informative debate. I am sorry only that the amount of time that we have to discuss these significant and important matters has been curtailed. I suppose that it is rather telling that—with great respect to those who are in the press gallery—the press gallery is virtually empty. I do not expect to read anything about this debate in the newspapers tomorrow because it will not be exciting or controversial. Perhaps the British people would be better informed if they knew that their Parliament was taking these things seriously.
As Members across the House have been saying, since 2010, we have been in a period of extraordinary turmoil. Since we completed our strategic security and defence review in 2010, fundamental changes have taken place across north Africa, the middle east and Ukraine. Nothing calls more for a really serious new strategic defence and security review than the state of affairs at the moment. I hope that the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and other Government Departments will put time and effort into producing a strategy. We were unable to do that in 2010 because we were up against the time scale of the comprehensive spending review.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who has been banging on repeatedly about the need for strategic thinking. So much has changed since the fall of the Berlin wall. All the certainties with which I grew up, including the balance of terror, have all gone, and we have inherited a very turbulent world. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made a compelling speech. He said that we need to invest more money in intelligence and in the Foreign Office; it is absurd that we invest so little in the Foreign Office and I hope that that will change.
Like the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), I wish to refer to matters in Ukraine, as they are very serious and much closer to our borders than the important issues in Syria and Iraq. Personally, I want good relations with Russia
Nadhim Zahawi
At the NATO summit an agreement was reached under which all member countries have to get their investment in defence up to 2% of GDP over the next 10 years. Does my hon. Friend think that that is adequate?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I would like member countries to get up to 2%. At least they will be fulfilling the commitments to which they have signed up. Clearly, the international situation is so demanding that we all need to review whether that is the correct level of expenditure. At the moment, NATO depends heavily on the contribution of the United States. The people of Britain and Europe must understand that American taxpayers have made a big contribution to our overall defence.
On the question of Ukraine and Russia, it is instructive to remind ourselves that, at the NATO-Russia Council meeting in 2002, Vladimir Putin said:
“Russia is prepared to act in accordance with international law, international rules in the course of a civilised dialogue for the achieving of common and joint ends.”
Indeed, in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal—the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world—the Budapest agreement, which was signed by his predecessor Boris Yeltsin, said:
“The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine…to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”
Those three nations reaffirmed their obligation
“to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.”
We have seen a flagrant breach of that agreement, which was signed by Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton and John Major. If Putin can simply renege on the agreements he has signed, what does that 2002 speech mean?
Russia now believes in the extraordinary and dangerous doctrine that it can intervene in other sovereign countries if it believes there is any threat to those who have Russian connections or who speak Russian. That is chilling. We should remind ourselves that, in The Daily Telegraph, the Russian ambassador wrote:
“With the rights of national minorities violated and the interests of regions disregarded, the people of Crimea found it necessary to determine their own political future by means of a referendum—and to do it fast.”
We know that it was Russian military intervention that took Ukraine. We need to be clear that there is no land link between Russia and Crimea at the moment. All that is going on in eastern Ukraine is designed to soften it up so that, at some point, Putin will come in, possibly link up with Odessa and Transnistria, and render the rump of Ukraine a landlocked country. They are very serious matters. We must make it clear to Russia that the Baltic states are subject to article 5. There can be absolutely no doubt about it. It is irrefutable that article 5 stands.
I am sorry that we have not had enough time to debate these matters. The Scottish referendum will take place next Thursday. With Russia penetrating our airspace and following our sea lanes, the idea that we should surrender a part of the United Kingdom and render it a foreign country and therefore not part of NATO—
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). I will carry on in that vein. As he rightly said, Putin has reneged on the Budapest accord. To develop my argument, I will talk about Russia’s past and what will happen in future.
The UN estimates that, since the Russian annexation of Crimea in April, nearly 2,600 people have been killed in fighting between pro-Russian separatist rebels and the Ukrainian army in eastern Ukraine. The UN figure does not include the 298 passengers and crew of Malaysian Airlines MH17, which was shot down in the area by separatist rebels on 18 July.
Ukraine is not the first conflict to be frozen and it will not be the last. For some years, Russia has become increasingly uneasy about the expansion of both NATO and the European Union. As the EU has become bigger, Russia has seen the buffer of states between her borders and those of EU states dramatically reduced. In the north-east of the EU, they are non-existent. Many in Russia believe that the west reneged on an informal agreement in 1990 not to expand NATO eastwards. That misunderstanding or breach of trust is the basis for the current instability in eastern Europe.
It is not the first time Russia has used proxy forces to destabilise countries and create frozen conflicts. In 1992, during the break-up of the Soviet Union, the newly created country of Moldova was destabilised when its large ethnic Russian population of 200,000 people chose to break away and join Russia. As in Ukraine, pro-Russian separatists fought Government forces to a standstill. Russia committed 150,000 so-called peacekeepers to Transnistria. They are still there today. Transnistria held a referendum in 2006 similar to that we saw in Crimea, voting heavily in favour of joining Russia. The region’s status has still to be decided.
For Georgia, the current crisis in Ukraine and Crimea has clear parallels with its own conflict with Russia in 2008. After its application for NATO membership, ethnic Russian separatists rose up in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and there were reports of “unidentified troops” posing as local insurgents in Georgia’s separatist regions. Russia intervened under similar auspices, claiming the citizens’ right to self-determination, separation and Russian protection under international law. As in Moldova, the statuses of the two breakaway regions are still to be formally decided. Although they are so-called independent regions, they are effectively now as much a part of Russia as Crimea.
The current rebel advance has raised fears that the Kremlin may seek to create a land corridor between Russia and Crimea. As with Moldova and Georgia, analysts have speculated that Putin does not want a Crimea-style annexation, which would be expensive and militarily difficult, but instead wants to create a “frozen conflict” that would give Moscow permanent leverage in Ukraine. Only time will tell whether eastern Ukraine will be annexed, too.
I feel that the west has seriously misjudged Putin and does not seem to understand where he is coming from and what he hopes to achieve. In many Russian minds, Ukraine is a part of Russia. Putin has certainly reflected that view in public with recent press conferences referring to Ukraine as either little Russia or, in some cases, new Russia. He says that part of Ukraine’s territories are eastern Europe, but that the greater part are a gift from Russia.
Putin witnessed first hand the mismanagement of the Russian economy, open corruption and the economic hardships that the collapse of the USSR and market forces brought to Russia. It is with the period that saw the decline of the Soviet Union and of Russia in mind that Putin has said quite openly that he regrets
“the passing of the Soviet Union”
and that the blame for much of the past lies squarely at the feet of the west.
Article 5 of the NATO treaty considers an attack in terms of “armed force”, yet Russia is currently inciting an insurgency.
Sir Gerald Howarth
The hon. Gentleman is talking about the Baltic states. He will know that Kaliningrad is a part of Russia on the Baltic sea, surrounded by Poland and Lithuania. Does he fear that Russia might try to produce a land link between itself and Kaliningrad?
Mark Hendrick
I think that is perfectly possible and I concur with the hon. Gentleman. I think that, even though Ukraine is not an article 5 member of NATO, it poses many questions about NATO members, particularly the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Kaliningrad, like Crimea, is strategically very important to the Russians and if the west does not take strong action at some point, possibly going beyond sanctions, the west, particularly countries such as the UK, will suffer and might enter a third world war. The situation is far more serious than it has been painted. It is at least as serious as what is happening in Iraq and Syria for the stability and future of Europe. I hope that the west sees Putin for what he is and treats him not as a former economic Minister but as a former head of the KGB.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I apologise to colleagues for having missed some of the Back-Bench speeches earlier due to an unbreakable commitment related to the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament.
As was observed earlier, when my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) is thought about in defence terms the one word that will be associated with him will be “strategy”. When my political epitaph comes to be written, I guess most people would think that the one word that would be associated me would be “Trident”—or, if they were feeling kinder, it might be “deterrence”. Actually, a different word ought to be associated with what I am trying to outline in terms of strategy today: “containment”. Containment is the key to what we need to do in the two very different scenarios of Russia’s behaviour and ISIL’s behaviour. Containment sometimes has to be done by means of a balance of terror, as when dealing with a nuclear-armed state such as Russia. On other occasions, it has to be done with the more traditional concept of the balance of power, as when dealing with states such as those of the middle east. Containment by means of the balance of power often means active intervention.
Let me refer briefly to two scenarios. In the case of Russia and Ukraine, what Russia is doing is not new, as the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) observed in his interesting speech. In fact, it is based on a model of what it did in the immediate aftermath of the second world war, when countries such as Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Hungary were first subverted and then taken over. I have previously mentioned the important work of Professor Anatol Lieven in analysing the situation in Ukraine. Time prevents me from doing more than pointing out that he has consistently said that the only way in which a disaster will be averted is for some considerable degree of autonomy to be awarded to the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine. If we try to egg on the other parts of Ukraine to win militarily, Russia will simply step up its military effort and the overall effect will be disastrous.
Helen Goodman
The hon. Gentleman is making a very powerful point, and I agree with him. Did he agree with the remarks of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), as I was somewhat alarmed to discover that I did?
Dr Lewis
Sadly, that is one of the Back-Bench speeches that I missed.
I am grateful, in any case, for the hon. Lady’s intervention, as it gives me a little more time to refer to the important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). There is a huge difference between NATO members that are covered by the article 5 guarantee and other countries, no matter how sympathetic we are towards them, that are not. When I was 16, Czechoslovakia was invaded. I thought what a shame it was that while Czechoslovakia was temporarily free we did not scoop up this poor vulnerable country under the protection of NATO. But I was 16 then—I am not 16 now, and I know the realities. I know that what was done in the aftermath of the second world war was nothing more than a recognition of the reality that the west could band together to protect itself by means of NATO, but it could not, at that stage, protect the countries of central and eastern Europe. Russia had to be contained by means of the balance of terror involving nuclear deterrence.
Let me quickly move on to ISIL. We are not in a situation where we have a choice of good outcomes. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) set out certain conditions in hoping for a good outcome in relation to the choices that face us. I hope they are right, but the likelihood is that there will be no good outcome in these confrontations—that no good guys are going to come out on top, but only somebody of the stripe of an Arab dictator, on the one hand, or revolutionary jihadists on the other.
That is where we move on to containment by means of a balance of power, whereby sometimes there is no ally to be helped and all we can do is try to ensure that no one of a bunch of undesirable actors on the international stage gets to be dominant. That is what we have to do in this case. That is why I gently disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex about the vote that we had last year. I am absolutely delighted to look back on the fact that I was one of the people who made sure that we did not intervene to drag down Assad, atrocious though he is, because the upshot of that would have been similar to that of dragging down Gaddafi. The effect of the latter was not to further western strategic interests but the interests of our deadly enemies on the jihadist front.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the crucial things in some of the recent military adventures in the middle east is, perhaps, a lack of understanding that once a dictator goes there is no Government structure or stability and that, therefore, the rule of law and everything else we love are not possible?
Dr Lewis
Absolutely. As always, my hon. Friend, with his Foreign Office background, makes the pertinent point. Thanks to his courtesy of giving me more time, I would like to quote a recent editorial from The Spectator:
“Such is the march of Islamic fundamentalism that if you remove a dictatorship in the Arab world and you don’t end up with a western-style liberal democracy, you end up with a snake pit of competing religious factions, the most malign of which tends to dominate.”
What we are up against is a choice of the lesser of evils. Sometimes we will have to strike down one element of an evil choice, and sometimes we will have to suppress another. We should not, however, climb into bed with the enemy of my enemy on either occasion. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend; the enemy of my enemy can be my enemy as well. That is why we have to contain and control them and intervene from time to time, but we must not delude ourselves that there will be any perfect outcomes.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
I disagree with the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) about the idea of containing ISIS, because allowing a caliphate, however small or large, to establish itself would pose a great threat to the neighbouring Arab countries.
Mike Gapes
Perhaps we can talk about a different wording later.
When I was in Perth three weeks ago, I visited the Black Watch museum, and after that I visited Edinburgh, where I was struck by a very interesting exhibition on the role of Scottish troops and Scottish diaspora troops in the British imperial forces during the first world war. Is it not sad that an organisation is campaigning on an anti-British platform when, historically, the British imperial army was, and the British Army today is, very much rooted in the contribution of Scots to many of our country’s distinguished regiments? That is another aspect that those of us from England, Wales and Northern Ireland should remind our brothers and sisters in the rest of the United Kingdom about when they vote next week.
The end of the first world war, nearly 100 years ago, led to the treaty that resulted in the creation of a number of states. Turkey, which came out of the Ottoman empire, has already been mentioned, and others included countries on its borders, such as Syria, as well as Lebanon and Jordan, and countries further away, such as Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Later came the establishment of the state of Israel and the consequences that were touched on earlier.
The Kurds, who were scattered among up to three, four or five countries in the region, did not get a state at that time. Events in Iraq have led to the establishment of an embryonic state in the form of the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq, which has its own flag and defence forces—the very brave but poorly equipped peshmerga, who are fighting so hard and who are now, I am pleased to say, going to be armed by the United Kingdom, at last, as well as by other European partners.
There will be ramifications as a consequence of current events, because the PKK in Turkey and the PYD in Syria, which has been fighting against Assad, have been co-operating with the peshmerga to get the Yazidis and others off Mount Sinjar to safety. Yet we know that Turkey, Syria and Iran are very much against an independent Kurdish state, because of what the consequences would be. Therefore, a very complex development is going on.
Some people have said that the Sykes-Picot line, which was drawn on the map by French and British diplomats nearly 100 years ago, is dead. It is not yet dead, and we must be very careful. I believe that we may need a comprehensive international conference in the region at some point to redraw the boundaries.
Richard Graham
Does the hon. Gentleman not consider that in the current environment of having so much instability in the region, which he is describing very well, to give encouragement to any particular group—however strong their cause, however powerful their case—might simply be the trigger for a further round of instability? Would not the fact that all sorts of others might want to redraw the boundaries, however ineptly they were drawn 100 years ago, contribute to the instability that we want to contain?
Mike Gapes
The instability is already there. We have to face reality. Will Syria continue as a state, or will it disintegrate into three or four component parts? If we take on ISIL and defeat and destroy it, I suspect that we will do so in alliance with a coalition of forces. Some of those forces will be non-state actors: the actors will not just be the Governments of the region, but groups such as the PYD, which is currently in effect in control of parts of Syria.
Whether we are talking about creating loose confederations, which may well be the outcome of the political discussions in Baghdad and the internal dynamics in Iraq, or about the outcome of what is happening in Syria, we need a little bit of vision in our thinking about how we can create a longer-lasting international framework for dealing with the issues. I am not saying that this is something for today—the priority today is to build a coalition to defeat the people who want to take the world back 900 years to some mythical Islamist caliphate—but we ultimately need to be aware that some issues coming out of this situation will have to be resolved.
In relation to people who want to take things back to what they were—the role of the man who admires the Soviet Union and wishes to recreate parts of it has already been mentioned—Russia’s policy now is an attempt not just to turn the clock back a few years, but to recreate some form of Soviet Union-style Russia as it was in the past. The so-called Eurasian customs union is the Putin model to rival the successful European Union, which has acted as a magnet for all the countries of central and eastern Europe. At the same time, Putin is espousing the very dangerous doctrine that Russia has a right to intervene in the internal affairs of any country where there are people who speak Russian. Following that logic is a recipe for renewed conflict all across Europe and in other parts of the world, so we have to resist it and stop it.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
For too long, it seems to me, there has been an idea that dealing with problems in countries such as Syria and Ukraine is a matter for our leaders, while ordinary Back Benchers must follow. Well, that has changed. The history of Iraq shows how badly we were led, principally by Tony Blair and his apparatchiks. Going to war with Iraq was wrong and unnecessary. I am sorry to say that Tony Blair was not straight with this House or with the nation. Never again will we leave such decisions solely to our leaders.
There are three areas of the world over which we have great concerns. If we are not careful, we may get into military action without any clear objective. That has already been attempted—fortunately it failed—in respect of Syria.
In the Holy Land, there is an agreement of sorts between Israel and Palestine. Gaza is not a state, but neither is it allowed by Israel to be part of Palestine. It is ruled by a terrorist organisation, Hamas, with the consequences that we see each day—bombing, rockets and bloodshed. Although there are issues that we, the Egyptians and the Israelis agree on, the Palestinian militants have crackpot ideas, and hundreds of rockets are fired from Gaza into Israel. However, very few people are killed by those rockets, whereas approximately 2,000 innocent civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli offensives.
What is needed, as well as a lasting ceasefire, is a workable plan for the crossings into Israel and Egypt from Gaza by both land and sea. Gaza has a smaller land mass than the Isle of Wight but more than 1.8 million residents. Most of them are out of work because businesses can get few of their products out in order to sell them and local people do not have the money to buy things. I, like so many people, am concerned that we must find a more civilised way for innocent people to live, even if a terrorist gang is in charge. It is totally unacceptable that larger and larger developments by the Israelis are forcing many thousands of Palestinians from their homes.
Secondly, in Syria, President Bashar al-Assad no longer has control of the whole of his country. There was a movement in favour of democracy, but that has been overtaken by extremists, including Hamas and the much increased force of the so-called Islamic State, which is still more extreme. It has taken over a third of Syria and has moved into Iraq, murdering men and raping women and children of the Christian faith and other faiths who refuse to convert to Islam.
It is tempting to believe that we and the United States are able to sort that mess out. The trouble is that there is no evidence to suggest that we could achieve that, unless the Syrians and Iraqis start to take action themselves. My conclusion is that there is little that we can do militarily that would be useful. We must encourage the Syrians and the Iraqis to take control of their own destiny.
Finally, in Ukraine, there is a ceasefire for the moment, but it might break down at any time. All but Crimea and three of the areas nearest to Russia are under the control of the Ukrainian people. For the moment, we are standing back. Ukraine is not part of NATO. My fear is that the EU will act as if Ukraine is part of the EU. That would be undemocratic and unacceptable.
All three areas are worrying, but peaceful negotiation is always preferable to war. As Churchill said, jaw-jaw is better than war-war.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner). We sit together on the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which produced an interesting document recently on Magna Carta. One of our proposals was that this country should never go to war without a vote in both Houses of Parliament. That is an interesting proposal. Now that it is a convention, I hope that it will be accepted in statute.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the Iraq war, and of course we do not know the truth of why we went into that war. We know that we were fed lies and all kinds of scares, such as that Britain could be attacked within 45 minutes using weapons of mass destruction that did not in fact exist. We still have yet to get the Chilcot report, which the Public Administration Committee discussed with Jeremy Heywood this week. We asked whether he was the blockage, because the Prime Minister has said that he is not stopping the report. All these years later, we do not know whether Tony Blair made an agreement with Bush that committed us to war, after which the House was forced into war based on a series of untruths. Some 179 British soldiers died in Iraq, and there were huge costs and uncounted Iraqi lives were lost.
I believe that we need to carry out another inquiry into our decision to go into Helmand province, which is arguably the worst military decision that we have taken since the charge of the Light Brigade. At the time, in 2006, we had lost only two British soldiers in combat in Afghanistan. We went into Helmand in the hope that not a shot would be fired, and we ended up with 453 soldiers lost in combat. Why did we do it?
Mr Baron
May I suggest that a key reason was mission creep? We allowed the mission to morph, disastrously, from one of taking on and getting rid of al-Qaeda to one of nation building, which was a completely different ball game. That was the fundamental error that we made in Afghanistan.
Paul Flynn
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I wrote to Tony Blair in 2003—the letter was on my blog and has been there ever since—saying, “If we go to war in Iraq without attempting to solve the Israel-Palestine problem, we will give a sense of injustice to Muslim communities from my local mosque to the far corners of the world.” At that time, we would not have thought it conceivable that young men and women educated and born here would go to the far east and take part in mediaeval barbarism. How did that happen? It is not about the imams, who have lost touch with the young people. It is about the internet and the flow of information that young people have. The sense of injustice has deepened since 2003. There was not the same division at that time. There were a few fanatics, and al-Qaeda existed, but there was minute support for it. Now it takes support from a huge percentage of the young Muslim population. That is deeply worrying, and we have to see the reason for it.
How we take decisions is an important issue. The most important decision that we have taken recently, of course, was on 29 August last year. Having watched how we go to war, I suggest that we must stop trusting the wisdom of Prime Ministers. They do not behave in a normal fashion on such matters. They are overwhelmed with hubris and talk in a different way, digging out the Churchillian rhetoric. They walk in a different way—they strut like Napoleon. I have seen it here time and again. They are not dealing with petty issues about taxes; here is their great moment. They are writing their page in history, and it is usually a bloody page. They are not rational, as Anthony Eden was not rational when he went into the Suez war. We are far better trusting the pooled wisdom of 650 MPs than listening to and following a hubristic Prime Minister.
We have had an interesting debate, and the two speeches that I have warmed to more than any others were those of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). We know that, incredibly, there is a fairly even spread in the House between the peace party and the “give war a chance” party. Even Labour Members have said that we should not be imprisoned by history. Of course we should be imprisoned by history—we should learn from it, because we have nothing else to go on from which to learn lessons.
I am grateful to the Government for holding the NATO summit in Newport, in my constituency. It was possible a grudging and belated acknowledgment of the wisdom of the local MP on foreign affairs matters. It was a great occasion, and I was particularly pleased by the decisions on the Baltic states. In ’89, ’90 and ’91 I had the pleasure of going to the three Baltic states and watching their struggle for independence. It was a great campaign: intelligent, courageous and restrained. It was difficult to win that independence, and they are frightened now—particularly Latvia and Estonia—because they have a large percentage of mother-tongue Russians. We owe it to them to be behind them and guarantee their independence.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
It is, as ever, a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), and I too welcome this debate. I would like more of these debates—I am sure I am not alone in that—not only because a lot is happening on the international stage that directly affects our interests, global possessions and so forth, but because it is important that those on the Front Benches are in touch with the mood of Back Benchers across the House. It is in their common interest to ensure that we minimise the chances of a vote taking place like the one that happened a year ago. More communication is good; we need more debates of this sort, and that this debate has been so oversubscribed illustrates that point well.
In the brief time available I will confine my remarks to ISIS and perhaps to what I consider to be the dilution of skills within the FCO—something that should concern us all. The Government are right to make a commitment that there will be no air strikes in Iraq unless that has been debated in this House and approved. They were also right to exhibit the cautious approach that they have shown to date, which is to be welcomed. We have heard it said many times that Iraq casts a long shadow, and the bar for military action has been raised. There is no doubt about that in the House, but I contend that it is not a bad thing, given the number of errors we have made in the region over the past 10 to 12 years.
I take issue with those who suggest—we have heard this quite a bit in the Chamber today—that by exhibiting a cautious approach and voting against action in Syria last year, Britain is somehow retreating from the world, or that we wish to bury our heads in the sand and do not want to play any more on the world stage. That is utter tosh. We are a key member of the UN Security Council and of NATO, and a prominent member of the Commonwealth. We are not retreating from the world, but if a slightly more cautious approach is needed, that is surely how it should be in this place, when the most serious decision we can make in this House is whether to send troops to war—a decision that costs lives and can result in great expense in both lives and treasure.
We have only to look back at our recent track record. There can be no denying that we went to war on a false premise in Iraq in 2003. There were no weapons of mass destruction. Fact: we went to war on a false premise. Some may dispute this, but I think that a key error—this was referred to by the hon. Member for Newport West—was in Afghanistan. We all agreed with the initial narrow objective of ridding Afghanistan of al-Qaeda. That was laudable and we supported it. It went wrong when we allowed the mission to morph into one of nation building, which was a much broader aim that we fundamentally under-resourced.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend and thinking about the vote last year, when regrettably I was not able to support the Government. Listening to my hon. Friend, I would say that the problem was that chemical weapons could be moved around very easily, and so as a military objective it was not very satisfactory.
Mr Baron
I agree. Technically, the motion was about that, but there was also a push last year by the Government to arm rebels fighting Assad. However, because it would have been impossible to track and trace those arms, some of them would have ended up, inadvertently, in the hands of the very extremists we are now taking on in northern Iraq—a bitter irony if ever there was one.
Dr Julian Lewis
It was precisely for that reason that my hon. Friend and I made common cause against the folly of that intervention. On Afghanistan, does our policy not tend to be too reactive to the last thing that happened? It was said that as soon as the Soviets left, the west left Afghanistan to stew in its own juices. It was to prevent that from happening again that the west made the bad mistake, as it turned out, of engaging in nation building.
Mr Baron
I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend and others on both sides of the House in asking those difficult questions a year ago. We were right to do that. He is absolutely right about Afghanistan as well.
The litany of errors does not stop with Afghanistan. We now have the Libyan Government meeting on a Greek ferry off Tobruk; there is civil war; the number of civilian casualties is shooting up; and we have not got a proper policy. I certainly do not think our intervention helped the situation. We have now discussed Syria, and it is clear that the Government’s intentions to arm the rebels were misplaced, given that it would have been impossible to track and trace the arms. Our bigger issue is now taking on in Iraq some of the rebels who confronted Assad.
It is right to be cautious and to ask questions, and it is right that the bar has been set higher. I am pleased that Ministers realise the difference between air strikes in Iraq, which many of us could support, provided certain preconditions were in place, including a request from the Baghdad Government, and air strikes in Syria, which would be a much higher risk policy, not only because of Russian-built air defences, but because of the legalities and the fact that a common feature of the Syrian civil war has been the extremist groups lurking in the shadows and morphing into each other—al-Nusra, linked to al-Qaeda, for example—and would be difficult to say who might take ISIS’s place in Syria.
I welcome the caution. At the end of the day, the politics in Iraq must succeed. The elephant in the room is the Iraqi army. It has to be ground forces that defeat ISIS—air strikes alone will not succeed—but they must not be western. The symbolism of the west defeating this caliphate would be too great. The Iraqi army is the elephant in the room, but the politics must come through and succeed. What fomented the presence of ISIS was the very sectarian politics pursued by Maliki, the predecessor of the current Government. We must have more inclusive politics in Iraq, but at the same time we have to ensure that the army drives out ISIS.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
In the five minutes available to me, I want to make three points and ask one specific question that I hope the Minister will reply to.
We are meeting in the shadow of the end of the NATO Heads of Government conference, and although I am sure it was a magnificent affair for the many Heads of Government and other putative members of NATO who attended, I think we should have a much more nuanced view of what NATO is about and what it has become. It did not shut up shop at the end of the cold war, sadly; instead, it cast around for something to do, and has now sought and obtained for itself a global role. Collectively, its member states already spend $1 trillion a year on arms, and according to the Wales declaration, many states that do not quite meet the 2% minimum requirement will have to increase their spending.
Paul Flynn
Does my hon. Friend agree that NATO is a chameleon organisation? It was belligerent and bad under Bush, but benign and peace-seeking under Obama?
Jeremy Corbyn
I think that is an incredibly generous description of how NATO is behaving under President Obama, although it certainly was belligerent under Bush.
NATO’s endless eastward expansion has encouraged an equal and opposite reaction on the other side, in Russia. Although I am not a defender of Putin or, indeed, of Russian foreign policy, one has to say that if there was a general agreement that Ukraine should be a neutral, non-nuclear state, the presence of NATO forces in Ukraine and joint exercises with Ukrainian forces were likely to encourage the Russian military to do the same across the border. If we want to see peace in the region, as we all do, surely there has to be demilitarisation and a process that brings about a peaceful reconciliation in Ukraine, if that is at all possible. Instead, what I hear all the time is the ratcheting up of the military options on both sides, with more and more exercises and more and more overflying.
This is a very dangerous situation that could indeed lead to some dreadful conflict. I want to sound a note of caution about it and also draw attention to the fact that NATO now gives itself the right to involve itself in any part of the world, at any time, through its rapid reaction force. Indeed, the Prime Minister wanted to bring another 33 countries on board. A global military power that can go in anywhere is not necessarily a good thing; indeed, it can provoke all the opposition and all the problems that we are discussing in today’s debate.
The question I want to put to the Minister—to which I hope I will get a reply either today or in writing—is this. The mutual defence agreement between Britain and the USA on the sharing of nuclear information, originally signed in 1958, comes up for renewal this year. There is no date set for Parliament to debate it, and apparently the Government do not seem terribly keen on that, yet President Obama sent a message to Congress on 24 July saying that he approved of the renewal of the agreement and hoped that Congress would approve it. If it is good enough for Congress to debate the mutual defence agreement, surely it is good enough for us to debate it as well.
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways to bring down conflict, tension and the international temperature is to be predictable? These unclear mandates lead to uncertainty and unpredictability.
Jeremy Corbyn
Indeed, and the daily dangers from the situation in Ukraine and eastern Europe are pretty obvious for everyone to see. I hope we can think more carefully about this, rather than rushing more and more troops, more and more arms and more and more missiles into the area, and instead try to search for a political solution, difficult as I obviously recognise that to be.
I want to make two other points. This morning a number of us went to Room 14 to hear a statement from Dr Mustafa Barghouti of the Palestine National Initiative. He showed us a short film that was appalling, shocking and horrible. All I was seeing were pictures of buildings in Gaza that I have visited and known. They are all ruined, and there are 2,000 people dead and many families completely bereft of everything. The bitterness from that bombing by Israel continues and will continue for a very long time. Surely there should have been a response by the British Government on this. It is not good enough just to talk about Israel’s right to exist and its right to self-defence. There was a total disproportionality about the whole conflict. More than 2,000 Palestinians are dead; sadly, 100 Israelis are dead. I wish no one had died from that conflict, but unless we address the rights of and justice for the Palestinian people—their right to nationhood, their right to recognition, their right to travel, their right to trade; all those things—and instead keep them in prison in Gaza, this will all break out again in the not-too-distant future and we will have a renewal of all the horrible bloodletting that has happened over the past month.
There was a massive lobby of Parliament yesterday by supporters of Palestine. On 9 August, 150,000 people came on a demonstration in London to show their solidarity with people under bombardment. It is up to us, as one of the authors of the Sykes-Picot agreement, which is the antecedent of many of these problems, to be prepared politically to do something about the problem, at the very least by suspending all military arrangements with Israel. Although I recognise that that will not solve the problem, it would at least send a significant political message.
My final point in my remaining minute is simply this. I have been a Member of this House long enough to have discussed the Afghanistan war, the Iraq war, the Libya conflict and indeed, before that, the Gulf war. I am no supporter, sympathiser, apologist or whatever for ISIL—for what it stands for, what it does, what its methods are or for its current threat and attacks on the Kurdish people. Surely, however, some basic understanding of history will recognise that our interventions and our behaviour—American interventions, American behaviour—have created the circumstances in which ISIL has grown up. The money now going into the region for arms—from Saudi and other sources—as well as all the other weapons going in are a major cause of the current conflict within Iraq. Let us learn the lesson: intervention everywhere is surely not the solution; the solution is working with people on development and bringing about peaceful solutions to problems rather than the obsession with taking military intervention around the world.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate on the middle east and security matters. I am sorry that I have been nipping in and out of the Chamber.
It is important to get my concerns on the record, and I will be brief. I am greatly concerned about the impact that events in the middle east are having on our country, and about how these events are being perverted to give license to hate. As a tolerant society, we cannot tolerate British people hating British people on the basis of the faith they are born into or choose to follow. I am deeply disturbed by the personal letters I have received from a number of my Jewish constituents—I have only 250 of them—expressing their distress at what the future holds in the UK for them and their families.
These are British citizens who have as much to do with the middle east as I do. It is not right that synagogues now have to be protected by security guards and that banners are being seen and chants are being heard that say, “Kill all Jews”, “Hitler was right” and “Death to all Jews”. This situation is not tolerable. There are no excuses.
Mr Burrowes
I totally agree with my hon. Friend, and he is certainly right to raise issues about our Jewish constituents in this debate about security. The issue goes further than the physical threats. For the first time in my surgery, I encountered a family that is now fearful of its children going on a public bus to a Jewish school, or even of them going alone into the local Asda or Tesco. The family thinks how they look will give an indication of their being Jewish and that people will take an anti-Semitic view.
Mr Walker
I am aware of those concerns; they are shared by members of the Jewish faith in my constituency.
The cancer of anti-Semitism is stalking our country under the disguise of a new cloak. This cloak must be stripped away, exposing the wickedness of those who lurk behind it. I am no saint in these matters. We all have the weakness to give in to the easy seduction of hate, so it is incumbent on us all to recognise the siren calls of that weakness and keep them in check.
In coming here today, I do not want to stand behind my Jewish constituents; I do not want to stand beside them; I want to stand in front of them. I say this: if I had Christian constituents, Hindu constituents or Muslim constituents who felt threatened as a result of their faith or colour, I would stand in front of them as well.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this thoughtful debate. I will start my brief remarks with a reflection on Ukraine.
Russia is undoubtedly breaching international law and its previous commitment to non-interference in Ukraine’s affairs. I want to make it crystal clear that I condemn President Putin’s hostile actions and violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty. We do, however, have to understand better what is going on in that area if we are de-escalate the situation and find the solutions that we seek. Russia has long been suspicious of western intentions on its borders, and it fears encirclement. The history and culture of Ukraine and Russia are inextricably bound together. In this context, no Russian Government would coolly accept the drawing of Ukraine into the EU or NATO.
Extremely experienced and respected commentators and ex-diplomats, including Sir Roderic Braithwaite and Sir Brian Barder, have observed that the west has badly mishandled relations with both Ukraine and Moscow with irresponsible talk of EU and NATO membership. Members of the European Parliament will vote next week on whether to ratify the EU-UK association agreement. I think we should be deeply uneasy about actions and statements that suggest a wish to draw Ukraine into NATO or the EU at a time when that will only escalate tensions.
Jeremy Corbyn
Does the hon. Lady agree that at the time of Ukraine’s independence at the end of the Soviet Union it became specifically a non-nuclear power, and specifically sought to be neutral-ish within the region and to pursue a peaceful course? Does she not think that that is something that we should have respected, and should respect now?
Caroline Lucas
I absolutely believe that that is at the heart of the problems that we are facing. The association agreement requires Ukraine to steadily approximate its legislation to that of the EU, a process to be monitored and even enforced by the EU. It sets up a political dialogue designed explicitly to
“promote gradual convergence on foreign and security matters with the aim of Ukraine’s ever-deeper involvement in the European security area.”
That is not compatible with what my hon. Friend has just described, namely the understanding and settlement for Ukraine in the past. I believe that at a time of such heightened tension, this agreement is inflammatory and divisive.
Martin Horwood
Does the hon. Lady accept that there are neutral countries in the European Union, including Ireland, and that that does not imply any kind of military threat to Russia? Does she accept that the Budapest memorandum was actually about the giving up of nuclear weapons—it did not particularly mention any alliances—in return for the guarantee of the respecting of Ukraine’s existing borders and its independence, which Russia has clearly breached?
Caroline Lucas
There is no doubt that Russia has clearly breached that, and I absolutely condemn Russia as much as anyone else in the House, but I also think that the EU has been particularly provocative in the actions that it has taken and in the language in the association agreement. In my view, to suggest that Ukraine has a chance of joining the EU or NATO undermines the agreement that was made in the past.
In Washington, hawks in Congress are shouting about appeasement, and demanding action such as a NATO rapid reaction force to be deployed across eastern Europe to deter Moscow. Meanwhile, Britain is planning to send troops to Ukraine for exercises. I seriously question whether those actions will have the desired effect. The best instrument for co-operation and peace must be the UN Security Council. By definition, that must include Russian involvement, and must take account of Russia's interests and fears in its own backyard. I share the view that we should declare that Ukrainian membership of either the EU or NATO is not on the cards, and never will be. That might help to calm the situation, and it would be no more than a recognition of geopolitical reality. At the same time, Russia must stop seeing the world in zero-sum terms, and must stop seeing Ukraine as an extension of Russia.
There are many reasons why it is in Europe’s best interests to re-engage with Russia, and not the least of those is the rise of the vicious and barbaric terrorism in the middle east. That is why I believe that we should be very concerned about what is happening in the context of the rise of ISIL. On Monday, the Prime Minister rightly said:
“Britain is clear that we need to oppose not only violent extremists, but the extremist narrative.”—[Official Report, 8 September 2014; Vol. 585, c. 660.]
If we are to halt the influence of ISIL’s vile narrative, we would do well to try to better understand it, and to understand why it appeals to some disenchanted and marginalised young men. Professor Paul Rogers of Bradford university’s peace studies department, who is a specialist in international security and politics, points out that ISIL and others like it make effective use of western foreign policy to advance their warped message of a western expansionist “far enemy” intent on destroying Islam. ISIL does not care about consistency, justice, human rights or international law, but it has been very adept at exploiting any double standards on our part—such as the illegal invasion of Iraq, and such as continuing support for the Israeli Government despite ongoing breaches of international law, repeated horrific and disproportionate attacks on Gaza, and, now, the biggest land grab in the occupied territories for 30 years.
Double standards are wrong in themselves, but the fact they are exploited by ISIL is another reason, if it were needed, to ensure that we have a foreign policy with—dare I say—an ethical dimension. I do not believe that there is a “quick fix” military response that will defeat the likes of ISIL. Its ideology and influence need to be undermined, and airstrikes will do the opposite. That is precisely why ISIL is goading us to invade with its terrible, barbaric beheadings. That analysis is backed up by Richard Barrett, the former head of counter-terrorism at MI6, who warns that western military action would precisely play into IS hands and would, in a sense, be a recruiting sergeant for it. Airstrikes are sometimes promoted as some kind of intervention-light, whereas we know there is really no such thing—that precision accuracy is in reality all too often not precise. As ISIL well knows, those bombs often result in civilian deaths, which would greatly assist the extremists’ long-term recruitment drive. I completely understand the desire to do something, as people are being murdered, starved and raped, but we must not make things worse.
In the short term, the Red Cross principle of impartial aid to all victims of armed conflict must now dominate as our model for humanitarian intervention, not the doctrine that we must pick one side and help it. Moreover, our diplomatic efforts must intensify, and I want to know what progress has been made on working with Turkey, given the major concerns that ISIL is selling stolen oil through the Turkish border. What pressure are we putting on the Gulf regimes like Saudi Arabia—and surely that is compromised when, as I discovered in an answer received just today to a parliamentary question, it transpires that we have more than 200 civil servants from the MOD working for the Saudi Government?
Then there is Qatar, from which funds are often channelled to extremist groups, yet this is the same Qatar to whom we also sell millions of pounds-worth of weaponry. Surely we have more leverage than just calling Qatar “unwise” as the Prime Minister did on Monday—not forgetting that Qataris own a large portion of Sainsbury’s, a chunk of the London Stock Exchange, and London’s iconic Shard. We must continue to work with Iran, too.
Then, as I have said, there is also Russia. Unless we change our stance on what is happening in Russia and Ukraine, the possibility of working with Russia to try to stem extremism in the middle east will be massively undermined.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
I came to this debate to listen to what was being said, and I have to say that I was deeply impressed by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). I was one of those who stood up in eastern Europe to defend our values. I was one of those who stood up for the values of tolerance, freedom of speech and particularly the rule of law. In this speech, I want to take us back to the situation in Israel and Gaza, notwithstanding that there is a ceasefire, which continues to hold. I also want to draw attention to my entries in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
The trouble with saying anything about the Israel-Gaza situation is that unless we come out immediately as pro-Palestinian, we are put down as just listening to pro-Israeli military propaganda. This is both untrue and misses the point. Nothing I say is going to be anti-Palestinian, but what I say is going to be completely anti-Hamas.
I have no sympathy for Israel when it comes to the building of settlements. The Foreign Secretary has already condemned this and I agree with him, and I urge Prime Minister Netanyahu to think again, but it would be wrong to address the situation in the middle east without condemning Hamas. It would be too easy to be dismissive of the role of Hamas in the current conflict, preferring to take a one-sided view of what Israel can do, rather than also round on Hamas. I am well aware of the history of the region. I have been in the region during a period of Hamas rocket attacks. In fact, I think I was in Jerusalem when Hamas fired its first rocket in that direction.
We should not forget that this conflict came about as a result of Hamas firing rockets at Israel. I cannot see that it does any good to claim that this is not so. Hamas launched over 4,000 rockets in the recent period. It does no good to claim simply that these were homemade rockets when so many were Iranian in origin. What does this say about those who call for an arms embargo against Israel while allowing Hamas still to receive these rockets—these rockets that bring so many in the region within their reach? I cannot see that it does any good to claim that few of these fell in Israel or that Iron Dome protected Israel, as if simply having the means of protection was itself a crime. Nor does it do any good to see this as a numbers game. We all want to see an end to the killing, but totting up how many have been killed does not provide a justifiable comparison. If we simply descend into a one-for-one argument, we descend into an area into which I, for one, would be ashamed to go.
We cannot achieve any results without looking at the tactics of either side. Hamas effectively uses the civilian population as a shield for its rockets and as a safe haven from which to fire those rockets. We have already seen it using United Nations schools and a medical facility to store rockets. Hamas was described by a constituent as a
“brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes.”
The shocking images of 22 Palestinians being lined up to be shot for allegedly supporting Israel should have sent shivers down the spines of those watching. This all demonstrates that the solution to Gaza does not lie in a Hamas-controlled state. I remain convinced that the region needs a two-state solution. Israeli attempts to build more settlements are admittedly not the way forward, but neither is a situation that includes Hamas in its current position.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be called to speak in this important debate. During the summer, I was contacted by hundreds of constituents from across Oldham and Saddleworth—the two very distinct parts of my constituency—who were appalled by what was happening in Gaza and Israel. The inter-faith forum comprising all religious groups in my constituency mounted a petition that amassed more than 8,300 signatures in six days. It was presented to Downing street during the recess, and it called for Parliament to be recalled to debate the crisis facing Gaza and Israel. Many of my constituents were hugely disappointed that the Government did not believe a recall was warranted.
We have already heard about the tragedy of the loss of life over the past few weeks, in Gaza in particular but also in Israel. This comes two years after the previous violence in the area. After the 2012 bombardment of Gaza, I was as appalled as many other hon. Members were, and I wanted to go and see for myself exactly what was happening. It was a moving experience, and it has left me with strong views. Consequently, I was disappointed that the Prime Minister did not feel able to condemn the indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks by Israel. That was highly regrettable and a huge mistake. We should be able to stand up to our friends and tell them when we disagree with them.
The Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) have rightly said that a Palestinian child’s life is worth no less than that of an Israeli child. However, those are only warm words unless they are backed up by action. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has rightly pointed out that much of the anger felt by our young people nationally and internationally is a result of the perceived injustice of no action being taken. Nothing is being done. We could not even recall Parliament. What message does that send? What does that make politics look like to ordinary people? It really is appalling.
We must obviously welcome the peace that we now have, but history shows us that it will be sustained only if there is international pressure from Egypt and other neighbours as well as from us and, in particular, from the United States. Many have called for an investigation into whether the UK has supplied arms and components in this area. I was interested in what the Foreign Secretary said about there being no evidence for that, but I would like to see the details published. Until we have sustainable peace across the Occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel, there should be an arms embargo from the UK.
Paul Flynn
Does my hon. Friend agree with the statement made that Israel is indifferent to opinion in this country and in many other countries because it is shored up by public opinion in the United States? Is it not time for us to make a stand against Israel and tell it that it has gone too far?
Debbie Abrahams
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The EU association agreement with Israel and the preferential trade terms should also be re-examined. The UK’s trade with Israel’s illegal settlements in Palestinian territory is not only illegal under international law, but a barrier to long-term peace. One way people get around the law is by mislabelling products. I was really disappointed by the response I received from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on that issue. I hope that the Home Secretary will be able to say in her response to this debate how we are monitoring that and ensuring that the law is enforced.
The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) have both made important points about the inconsistency of our approach, which relates to the injustice that people perceive is meted out by us. There is such a difference in our approach to different areas. Sanctions against Russia are well deserved, but why is the same not happening in respect of Israel? We need to be able to explain that.
In the long term, we must press the Israeli Government to be brave and take action on the settlements built by Israelis on Palestinian land. The most recent encroachment, days after the agreed peace deal, was most unhelpful, to say the least. Israel must also lift the blockade on Gaza, as stipulated in the peace agreement. We must also demand that Israel ends the discriminatory approach of its law. One law is applied to Israeli children and another is applied to Palestinian children. That is outrageous. We should be demanding more, not just from Israeli leaders, but from the Palestinian leaders of Hamas and Fatah, as they are not blameless. Leaders on both sides have let down their people, but there is hope and I believe that ordinary people will prevail. I was sincerely moved by the real desire of ordinary Palestinians and Israelis for peace. In the long term they will prevail.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
A network of terror is evolving across the middle east and it poses an existential threat to British and western interests both there and here at home. ISIL is just the most recent example of a network of terror that has been evolving over many years and which we need to confront. ISIL is operating out of Syria and northern Iraq, but there are also state-sponsored terrorist organisations, which have not been mentioned extensively in this debate, such as Hezbollah and Hamas. So the terror networks we face are diverse and they often have competing priorities.
What would be an appropriate western response to the threat of ISIL? I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) that it is almost as though we have lost the institutional capability to analyse what is going on in the world. Because of global networks and the rapidity with which information is disseminated on the internet, we need to up our game in terms of understanding what is happening on the ground. Our response has to be multi-level, coherent and concerted, because this threat is complex and evolving, and in order to confront it we need to change our mindset.
In that context, what constitutes an appropriate response? It is right that we consider using British military air power, if required, but that needs to be done in the context of building alliances with other Gulf states to support the peshmerga and the Iraqi armed forces on the ground, in order to defeat ISIL on the physical battlefield. It is critical that we recognise that there is not only the physical battlefield but a digital one, which requires as much energy to confront. The battle against the networks is being played out on the internet and in cyberspace. It is a mistake to view ISIL purely as some kind of mediaeval phenomenon. Although it might be promulgating a mediaeval philosophy, the group understands the potential of the digital world to disseminate its message, the power of viruses on the internet and how to manipulate global opinion.
As I have said, the theatre of this war is not just physical but digital, and ISIL’s capability in that area will only improve and expand. We need to ensure that our response is equally flexible. We must be clear about the values that we want to promulgate on social networks. We want to encourage moderate groups, which believe in peace and in moving this situation forward.
We need to confront the evil ideology of ISIL through the use of our soft power and to understand how we can use those networks in a way that confronts ISIL and those who wish to use social networking to disseminate their message. We need to use our soft power to come up with political solutions that people in the region can buy into and that take us forward.
As other Members have said, we must not be trapped by history. We need to learn the lessons from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we must not be paralysed by past mistakes. We should recognise that the circumstances and the conditions that we now face are very different from those 10 years ago. It is important that we are clear about the values that we want to assert in the world. There is a perception, which has been building over time, that the west is retreating. It is felt that the US is retreating from the world and that, because of the vote that we had in the House of Commons last year, the UK is too. But it is a perception. We must not retreat. We must prepare ourselves, be flexible and be ready for a long haul.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I apologise profusely for being out of the debate for most of the afternoon. I heard the speeches by the Front Benchers and then I had to attend a meeting at the Home Office about the data retention Bill.
I wish to discuss the issues that have been brought to my attention by my constituents. I will try not to repeat the points that I have heard. All sides of the argument have been eloquently made. I want to focus on Syria and Iraq. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has been in the House longer than me, but I have been here for 17 years, and on each occasion that we have discussed intervening in another country, there has been early consideration of the legality of such a move. I remember the discussions that we had on Iraq, and the elaboration of the just war theory, which comes all the way down from Thomas Aquinas.
Under the just war theory, before we enter into military action of any sort, particularly in another country, there has to be just cause, appropriate legal authority, proportionality, and the action should be taken in the last resort. Those are just some elements of the just war theory. I am anxious that we are taking the next step towards military intervention in Iraq and Syria without full cognisance of our legal position. Is there a just cause for an intervention at this stage by this state—the United Kingdom—when there are other parties that could be acting?
With regard to legal authority, I hope that whatever action we take we commit ourselves to ensuring that it is done through the United Nations with an appropriate resolution. No action should be taken unless there is the appropriate resolution. That was the problem with Iraq that caused such division both in our community and throughout the world.
I am concerned that we seem to be rushing fairly quickly to an extensive bombing campaign. No bombing campaign is based on precision bombing. We have seen that time and again, in every intervention in the past century. Proportionality was introduced to protect civilians but, in the bombing campaigns we have waged in recent years, there has been no protection of civilians.
That leads us to the question of who should undertake action if action is taken. There is an excellent article by Sunny Hundal on the Labour List website—I mention that because it contains many of my own thoughts and I do not want him to accuse me of plagiarism. UK engagement is exactly what ISIS wants. It wants the US, the UK and other western countries to invade Iraq and kill civilians, because that would unite radical Sunni elements in the middle east against such intervention. Sunny’s second point, which I fully agree with, is that ISIS would want to ally us with Assad, or even elements of the Assad regime if he goes. That, too, would unite radical Islamist forces against the west. As Sunny points out, ISIS would want the symbolism of the UK linking up with the US yet again to invade or threaten to take military against a Muslim country. I fear that UK involvement will mean that we have fallen into the trap that ISIS has set us.
If in accordance with just war theory there is a sound reason or a just cause for intervention, if it is the last resort and if it is a humanitarian intervention, I plead that the UK is not part of it. I agree with other hon. Members that other states in the region have a responsibility to act. They also have the resources to act. They have the military resources because we have sold them those resources. In recent years, Europe has sold Qatar €200 million-worth of military hardware. We have sold Jordan €34 million-worth of military hardware. Saudi Arabia has had €2,264 million in military exports.
Jeremy Corbyn
Is my Friend aware that Saudi Arabia has possibly the worst human rights record in the region? It is unclear where many of the weapons that are sold to Saudi Arabia end up.
John McDonnell
The whole argument was that the weapons were sold to Saudi Arabia so that they could be used in its defence, and to ensure that in the region it has a military presence that can effect the suppression of violence and the maintenance of peace. We have sold those weapons to those states, and it is now their responsibility to intervene on a humanitarian basis if necessary within the region. I agree that bombs usually do nothing more than elicit more violence; my hon. Friend has made that point in the past. Therefore, we should ensure that we supply humanitarian aid to the region.
Like other hon. Members, I was lobbied all summer on Gaza. We had a meeting of 200 people in my constituency, which mobilised with the 100,000 on the demonstration. People tell me that British citizens fight not just in the Palestinian cause and elsewhere in the middle east, but for the Israel defence force. I would like to know from the Home Secretary what action will be taken with regard to their passports, and what action will be taken against them when they seek to return to this country.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
May I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the register, not least as an unremunerated director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding?
I want to make two central points in the time available to me. First, the mission is clear. The mission of the international community should be to destroy the Islamic State. It would be a humanitarian action. Its behaviour and the appalling terror it has meted out in the area it controls comfortably jumps that hurdle. Having said that, the response must come from the international community, under the authority of a resolution of the Security Council of the United Nations. For obvious reasons, it should be seen not as a western intervention against Islamic State but as one that involves the nations of the region. In that sense, it is essential to have the engagement of Iraq and Syria as the areas of the battlefield on which this war must be fought and won, and the neighbouring nations of Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia must be part of the coalition.
We cannot just fight this war in Iraq because Syria has an air defence system under the control of someone with whom we do not want to do business, because then we will not achieve our mission and destroy Islamic State. In this complex area, we will, at the same time, have to force a settlement, as far as is possible, between Assad, the Free Syrian Army and the moderate constitutional forces of political Islam that are ranged against him. That means getting the Geneva process going and, critically, getting the Russians engaged, because Assad is Russia’s client. Just as the Russians enabled us to relieve him of his chemical weapons, they will be central in getting him to the negotiating table.
My central point has been repeated many times in this House. Despite the issues we face in trying to get international co-operation to support Iraq—such as the complexity of Kurdistan and the nature of the sectarian government that has plagued Iraq for the past few years—achieving the military mission will, somehow or other, have to involve Syria and Iraq.
Secondly, we must find a way of dealing fairly with political Islam. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell), I much appreciated the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). There is a battle of ideas, but the playing field on which the battle of ideology will be carried out must be properly defined. My right hon. Friend did not address the question of why Hamas behaves as it does and why perfectly decent Palestinian students studying in London who are not religious fundamentalists support Hamas. We need to get to a place where we understand the forces of political Islam that we are dealing with.
The Government are now sitting on a review of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, conducted by Sir John Jenkins.
Jeremy Corbyn
Does the hon. Gentleman not think that a political dialogue is needed at all levels, including Hamas in the elected Government of Gaza, to bring about and encourage a unified Government in Palestine, which will be in the interests of all Palestinians and of the region?
Crispin Blunt
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman.
We face the much bigger question of how we will engage with political Islam. I am a secular, gay, western politician, and the values of political Islam are absolutely antithetical to mine, but people should be allowed to stand for election on a platform that brings their religious beliefs into play, much as the Muslim Brotherhood have throughout much of the middle east. We have yet to address the question of how we will engage with the Muslim Brotherhood fairly and reasonably, rather than doing so unfairly and unreasonably, tainting them with things of which they are not guilty. If their supporters cannot support the Brotherhood and are unreasonably suppressed, they might eventually make the transition to the ghastliness of what we have seen in Islamic State. In achieving a political and military mission to destroy Islamic State and everything it stands for, we must isolate it from the other political forces in the region. That means establishing the criteria by which we engage with political Islam.
My request to the Government, as they sit on the Jenkins report on the behaviour of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and its potential engagement, or not, with terrorist activities, is to establish in that report the criteria of what is reasonable and acceptable for a political movement such as the Muslim Brotherhood to undertake. What is the reasonable playing field for it to engage with me and the rest of us in the battle of ideas and ideology to which my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) referred?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I have listened intently to the previous speeches. Given the political unrest that continues to grow, it does not surprise me to hear the many economic, political and humanitarian concerns that have been raised by so many Members. As my party’s spokesperson on human rights, I want to speak about the violations of human rights that have taken place across Ukraine, the middle east and north Africa—specifically, the persecution of Christians and what has happened to them. Some Members touched on that, particularly the right hon. Members for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden).
Were it not for Russia annexing Crimea and the unrest that there has been in the east, in particular, Ukraine was on the cusp of something good. The Davis cup tennis event was to be held there at the beginning of August, but that could not happen because of the unrest. Then there was the dreadful downing of flight MH17 back in July, when so many people lost their lives—a ghastly attack. The intervention of Russian troops in Ukraine, in collusion with the pro-Russian groups that live in the country, has left many Christians fearful of suffering persecution at their hands. Today we have an opportunity to speak for them. Corey Bailey of International Christian Concern has said that last month four volunteers from the Far East Broadcasting Company in Ukraine, which broadcasts the gospel across that country, were pulled from their building, and once it was discovered that they were evangelical Christians, they were beaten to death for their faith. Corey Bailey has claimed that pro-Russian separatists are suspicious of foreign or western influences and see evangelical Christians as a threat.
Andrew Bennett, Canada’s ambassador for religious freedom, has warned of the persecution of Catholics as the political crisis grows in Ukraine. There are clearly concerns about Christians of all denominations. In July this year, it was revealed that two deacons from the Church of Christians of Evangelical Faith and the two sons of the church’s pastor had been tortured and murdered at the hands of the separatists. The so-called militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic broke into the premises of the church and took the four men away. The terrorists also charged the church members with a crime against the DNR—namely, support for the Ukrainian army. Kidnappings, beatings, torture, threats of death and assaults at places of prayer are all happening to Christians in Ukraine, and we cannot ignore their plight.
The title of the debate also refers to the middle east and north Africa. At one stage, 20% of the population in north Africa and the middle east were Christian; that figure has now fallen to 4%. We are all aware of the toxic spread of ISIL across the middle east. In recent weeks, the western world has been brought to its knees in mourning for the two American journalists who were so brutally murdered because of their nationality—their rights, beliefs and freedoms as Americans. We have all joined in condemnation of this terrorist attack and of the so-called British citizens fighting their war.
The World Watch List includes Syria, where 600,000 Christians have fled the country or lost their lives in the civil war and where I fear that Christianity will cease to exist. In Iraq, we have seen the displacement of some 500,000 people around Mosul and the plains of Nineveh. Virtually all of Mosul’s remaining Christian population has fled. I believe that there is an axis of evil. In Iran, all Christian activity is illegal, from evangelism to Bible training and even reading of the scripture. The Iranian regime’s constitution and criminal code has legalised barbaric punishments for Christians such as amputation of limbs, gouging out of eyes, crucifixion, torture and public executions. In addition, pregnant women are executed and women in jail are abused. This happens in Iran on a regular basis.
In Sudan, faith-related killings, damaging of Christian properties, detention and forced marriage are taking place. We welcome the fact that Meriam Ibrahim was able to leave Sudan and go to Italy, but there are many others like her.
Finally, despite international pressure and the involvement of the Nigerian military, there has been no sign at all of the kidnapped girls in Nigeria, which is of great concern to us.
This has been a sombre debate. I urge the Government to be aware of the desperate plight of Christians and minorities across the world. Unfortunately, their struggles are often lost in the military or political coverage of these conflicts. Let us not be the country that stands silent while such suffering goes on all around us.
Mr Speaker
Order. In order to accommodate the six remaining Back-Bench colleagues who wish to take part, I am afraid that I have, with immediate effect, to reduce the time limit on Back-Bench contributions to three minutes.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
May I apologise for missing a large part of the debate because of Select Committee duties? Personally I find great danger in these types of debates, because I do not have all the facts. If I had been fully and properly briefed by a general and by MI6, my words would, I hope, be wiser, but I will do the best I can with what I have learned and read.
This is a debate on world security, particularly in the middle east and the Gulf states. I want to touch briefly on two points relating to the NATO summit and any possible military conflict in Iraq.
I am delighted that NATO appears to have woken up to the fact that responsibility must be shared and that the share of the budget must be increased to at least 2% over the next 10 years. Why, however, should it take 10 years? If we look around the world, we see what a chaotic state it is in, so I would suggest that it should be done in one year or even less. Why should the United States continue to bear so much of the responsibility for world security? Every time they do something, they are often pilloried for it. They may get it right or wrong, but surely we would be in a better place to criticise if we took a bigger share of responsibility.
To a certain extent, I agree with the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) that we should stop intervening in countries such as Iraq. In my view, the intervention in Iraq was a disaster—and so it has been proved. However, if we go into countries such as Iraq with promises that we will save them, restore all the things they want and help them live as near as possible to a law-abiding life, do we not have a responsibility when we pull out? We have lost brave members of our armed forces who have been killed or severely wounded. To simply leave such a country and abandon it to its fate would be a dereliction of our duty. Future politicians should ask the question raised by the hon. Gentleman: do we go in, can we afford to go in and how on earth do we get out; and if we do get out, should we go back in if what we were attempting to do has not been achieved?
I am not for one minute advocating boots on the ground, but if we were asked by an international confederation, including the Iraqis, to send troops to help deal with this minority group of 13,000 people—militarily we could succeed and teach a lesson to this barbaric group—would the Government consider putting British military boots on the ground?
Finally, if any British military action, including bombing, is to take place, will the Prime Minister and the Executive come to the House to ask its permission to send our armed forces into harm’s way?
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
I want to focus on Ukraine and Russia in the short time allowed to me. In 1988 and the early 1990s I chaired a parliamentary group, the Future of Europe Trust, dedicated to building links with Russia. I am appalled at what has happened between Russia and Ukraine. It is totally unnecessary and I think the west has done quite a lot of damage through not consulting on moves towards European Union membership for Ukraine after its nuclear disarmament. I also think that the approach of NATO has been quite wrong.
I refer the House to what the then US Secretary of State Mr Baker said at the time of the reunification of Germany. He said that there would be
“no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east”.
The Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that President Putin made it clear at the 2008 NATO conference in Bucharest that, because Ukraine and, for that matter, Belarus are so clearly in Russia’s back yard, any move towards bringing NATO to Ukraine would cause severe problems with Russia. We have to take that into consideration. There is also the history of Crimea, which was taken by French and British forces, and that means Russia would see NATO coming into Ukraine as another defeat. Russia has always had security worries since the French attack under Napoleon and, of course, that by Hitler in the second world war.
However, I see Russia potentially as a friend. It helped us enormously through the northern distribution network when the Afghan war was at its height, and it did not interrupt our use of the Manas air base in Kyrgyzstan. If we do not make some sort of accommodation with Russia, we will have huge problems with Iran. Many hon. Friends have referred to the need to deal with the Syrian theatre, which is also a subject in this debate, but without Russian help that will be impossible. We need to be accommodating as far the small Russian base at Tartus in Syria is concerned.
The way forward is to say firmly that NATO will not move into Ukraine, part of which is anyway in Asia. The European Union needs to show some sympathy in dealing with that. We now need a realistic policy: we cannot go on with expansion that undermines Russian security, and we must think very carefully about bringing the Russians on board to resolve the terrible problems in Syria, Iraq and the surrounding areas.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I welcome this debate. Sadly, I feel that it is too little and too late, given the time available to us to address the subject and given that I believe Parliament should have been recalled many weeks ago because of the genocidal atrocities that we have seen, sadly, in Iraq and Syria over the summer.
We talk about history and the shadow it casts—with Iraq and, indeed, the Syria vote—but that emphasises how Parliament needs to be involved at the earliest stage if it is to consider the scale of any threat; to hold the Government to account for their actions or, as some of us see it, inaction; and to ensure that Parliament is behind the way the Government are going not only in relation to decisions that have already been made, such as to arm the peshmerga, but in relation to further action, not least air strikes, that should be properly considered by Parliament.
The Prime Minister recognises that there is a need to establish what is in the national interest, but the jihadists have widened that by extending it into the terrain of Syria and Iraq. We must also recognise that there is a need to look at the historical view, including by asking who were the friends of the British in Iraq. When we remember the centenary of the first world war, we should ask ourselves, “Who manned the Iraq levies?” It was the Assyrian Chaldeans, the Christians who now face extermination at the hands of ISIS jihadists. Such historical bonds should have an effect on our view of the national interest.
As has already been said, we must recognise that ISIS stands for the destruction of homes, lives and places of worship—such as the tomb of Jonah in the city of Nineveh—that have stood the test of time and existed for the Assyrians for some 6,000 years. As several hon. Members have said, including my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris), this network has not just sprung up over the summer, but has existed for many years. It threatens basic freedoms, not least that of religion. Boko Haram has declared a caliphate in Nigeria and militant Islam is having an impact in Indonesia, Pakistan and Egypt.
What must we do? I look forward to hearing about further action when Ministers return to the House. Such action should include aid—we should not underestimate the huge humanitarian support and aid coming from Britain—as well as safety. My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) talked about the need for a safe zone. That would be complex and would take time, but we should consider it.
In the meantime, we must not ignore the need for asylum and safety. Australia has been very generous, like other countries, and has suggested that it will take some 4,400 Iraqi or Syrian refugees. I understand that, under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme, 50 or so refugees have come to this country. We must be ready to follow the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, who has said that
“watching preventable genocide is not a credible option”.
In other words, we should say, “Never again”.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
When Parliament met last year to discuss military action in Syria, I asked myself two questions. The first was: does Assad’s Government pose some sort of threat to the United Kingdom? In my opinion, the answer was, and still is, clearly no. The second question that was important to answer was: would the action we took be likely to improve things for the civilians living in Syria? Again I felt that the answer was no. That was based partly on conversations that I had had in Syria with leaders of Christian communities, who condemned Assad but warned that the alternatives would be far worse. In considering whether we should support military action against ISIS, as we are now, I asked myself the same questions.
This has been a tremendous debate. I have listened with interest and have learned something from virtually everyone who has spoken. I have agreed with much that has been said by Opposition Members. This time, I have come up with slightly different answers. I believe that ISIS does pose a threat to the United Kingdom. Its aim is to spread its warped version of its religion at the point of a sword. Many of its followers come from Britain and may come back to Britain and commit atrocities here. My answer to the question whether intervention would help civilians in the area is also yes. It would help not only the Christians, but the Yazidis, the Kurds, the Shi’a and even the Sunni Muslims who do not want that kind of Sunni Islam to be imposed upon them. I therefore believe that there are humanitarian reasons for taking military action.
If that conclusion is correct, we have to consider working with other people who are opposed to ISIS. That clearly means talking to Iran, which has an enormous role in the region. Uncomfortable though it may be for some, myself included, it also means considering talks of some sort with Assad’s Government. I am mindful that during the second world war we were forced to work with Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler. We were right to do so, because Hitler posed the obvious threat to our security. Since then, we have continued to work with regimes with dubious human rights records because we have been afraid of the alternatives. If we are committed to ridding ourselves of the evil that is ISIS, we have to be willing to work with anyone who is prepared to share the commitment to get rid of it.
Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)
This is a broad topic and there is limited time. I think that Parliament has a role to play in developing strategies not just for the middle east, Russia and Ukraine, but for countries throughout the world. The contributions today, particularly those of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), have been so good that we should create the time for people to debate these matters in the Chamber. To have discussed puppy farming and hospital parking last week was a disgrace. I am ashamed of this Chamber and the way that must have looked to the wider community.
I fully support the important immediate measures that the Government have taken to tackle extremism at home, although in the five hours that I have been here I have not heard many contributions about security at home. The Home Secretary is fully aware of my views about the need to move certain communities in this country from being patriarchal to being more matriarchal. That is part of the solution to the challenges that we face. I fully support the alleviation of suffering in the middle east and all the international development funding that has been spent on that. Attempts at defeating ISIS also have my support.
I want this country to have enough independence to be able to do what is right in the world. By independence, I mean energy independence. As I have said repeatedly in the Chamber, energy policy drives foreign policy, which drives defence policy. That is the order. I would like to see energy independence from Russia and from the Gulf states, which may have contributed to the formation of ISIS over recent years. That requires a long-term strategy. I encourage the relevant Committees and Departments to look at our energy policy. I serve on the Energy and Climate Change Committee, but I struggle to discern a UK energy policy.
The second thing that I want to see is a long-term vision. What can we do now that will lead to a better world? Of course tackling ISIS is important, but we should go on to root out extremism in all its forms throughout this country and the wider world. I also want to see a long-term regional settlement in the area, with something like the London committee that Churchill had in the war being convened. The brightest people in the middle east, with representatives of all of its communities, could sit down and talk to work out how we could bring peace to the region. It is a complex region, and that is why it is so compelling. We should do our best to create the circumstances for that. Regardless of the result of next week’s referendum, this country has a role and a responsibility in that, and we should step up to the plate.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
In his remarks to the House on Monday, the Prime Minister spoke of the opportunity offered by the new Government in Baghdad. There is a certain tension between that remark and those of the Foreign Secretary when he spoke of taking stronger action on the financing of Islamic State. IS has been in place for three years and is now largely self-financing. It has got money from Mosul, where it had a significant windfall, and it controls areas of Syria. On the issue of its financing, the horse has bolted.
There is urgency with the arrival of the new Government, and I hope that one response will be for the Foreign Secretary to visit them personally in Baghdad. I hope that he will also go to Kurdistan, where, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) correctly identified, the UK Government have leverage, not least because of the record of Sir John Major and the 1991 no-fly zones.
What has come out of contributions from all parts of the House today is a desire for greater clarity about the UK Government’s objectives. On Syria, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) queried what our objective was in relation to Assad—what do we see replacing him, and how is that consistent with the Iranian view? What will the territory look like once Assad has gone? Likewise, it seems a step beyond a long shot for us to expect a unified Iraq, given the Sunni legacy concerns about Baghdad and the fact that the Kurdish state now has a Prime Minister, a President, its own armed forces, its own legitimate demands and its people dying in the field. I would be keen to see the more realistic objective of a federal structure set.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) said, the resources need to be in place for intelligence and a diplomatic capability, but the political masters also need to listen that intelligence. The sense is often that advice from those at the sharp end is not taken on board.
Finally, we need to be clearer in our expectations. Before we commit UK military resource, we should challenge the Sunni Gulf states that we have supplied arms to and that have deep pockets. It will help us address the issue of radicalisation in the UK if the fight against odious regimes is led by fellow Sunnis rather than western intervention.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
As many hon. Members have said, this has been a wide-ranging and deeply thoughtful debate. At a time when, understandably, many Members of all parties are focusing on the Union and our own constitutional debate, it is important that today, on behalf of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we have debated how to keep all our citizens safe using our enviable international power, partnerships, intelligence infrastructure, military capabilities and other resources. We have discussed how to protect our own people as well as civilians overseas, and how to protect and pursue our values for those who are caught up in horrific conflicts.
Mr McFadden
Does my right hon. Friend think that that point is particularly important given that Glasgow airport suffered its own terrorist attack a couple of years ago, which shows that the whole UK faces the same threat from the forces that are attacking our way of life?
Yvette Cooper
We do face the same threats right across the United Kingdom, and we stand together most effectively against those threats when we work together, including our intelligence and security agencies and police forces. We should pay tribute to those bodies, because they work immensely hard throughout the Union, as has been reflected in today’s debate.
Members across the House have shown great experience in their contributions, particularly in foreign affairs, which shows how seriously we take the threats to regional and global stability, as well as to our interests at home. This has been a difficult debate to sum up, because the range of contributions has been so diverse. I therefore say to the Government that adding those four issues together in a single debate has perhaps strained its nature and made it complex to respond to.
We heard about the principles of foreign policy and how far we should learn from our international history. The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) spoke about Iraq, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) about Afghanistan, and my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) about Syria, and they mentioned the lessons of each of those decisions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) warned that we must learn from the past but not be imprisoned by it.
We debated how far we should engage and Britain’s role in the world, and the right hon. Members for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and for North Somerset (Dr Fox) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) had different perspectives on what Britain’s role could be. As the shadow Foreign Secretary made clear, in a complex world with new and complex threats, it is ever more important for us to work through partnerships and alliances, rather than to seek isolation.
We have debated the roles of strategy and the principles of military engagement and diplomacy or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) said, how we use the weapons of the military and the weapons of the mind. We heard a detailed contribution from my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) who spoke about the importance of Iran, and other hon. Members mentioned Turkey. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) debated the Iraqi Government, and the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) spoke about sanctions and Russia. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) and others spoke about the awful conditions in Gaza, and the need to break out of the cycle of violence.
The right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) spoke about events and the response to ISIL, and rightly argued about the importance of that response being led by those in the region—the Iraqi Government, the Kurdish Regional Government and members of the Arab League. My hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) said that we cannot turn our backs or walk away, and that we are most effective when we work in partnership.
We have had a wide-ranging debate on all those issues, but in my remaining minutes I want to concentrate on security, and particularly the implications for domestic security. Although most of the debate has been about ISIL and the threat it poses, we have been warned for many months by the Security Service about the threat that ISIL and the conflict in Syria have been posing to our domestic security at home. That was brought savagely home to us by the terrible videos of the beheadings of American journalists, with a British voice being heard, and the threat to British citizens who are kidnapped. As the Foreign Secretary said earlier, that appears to be at the hands of a British citizen who has joined the barbarism, and we have been warned about many of our citizens who have become involved.
We have had threats from extremists against Britain before, so this is not new. Since 9/11, 330 people have been convicted of terrorism-related offences in Britain. We have seen attacks inspired by al-Qaeda, and attacks carried out or attempted by British citizens—some trained abroad, many radicalised at home. Last year we had the awful attack on Drummer Lee Rigby, and the murder by a right-wing extremist of Mohammed Saleem.
We stand against extremism and violence in all its forms wherever we see it, whether that is by condemning the appalling rise in anti-Semitic attacks or the awful increase in Islamophobic attacks, or condemning those who become involved in terrorist organisations or extremist groups and who do not share our values, no matter that they may have been born or brought up in Britain.
Those who join ISIL extremists are going to join no Spanish civil war. They are beheading people and parading their heads on spikes, subjugating women and girls, and killing Muslims, Christians and anyone who gets in their way. As many hon. Members have said clearly, this is no liberation movement; it is a perverted, oppressive ideology that bears no relation to Islam. Some of the strongest voices against young Britons joining the conflict have been Muslim youth groups, communities and parents desperate to stop young people going. We agree with the Government that more needs to be done to prevent young people from being drawn into the conflict and to deal with the threat they pose.
More could also be done to improve the situation. We have called for improvements to the Prevent programme. The Home Secretary has said previously that before 2010 the programme was flawed but has now been improved, and she has defended its effectiveness. I hope she will review that because there are gaps in the programme. There were flaws in it before and there are flaws in it now. Things change all the time and more needs to be done, working with communities to support community-led programmes to prevent young people from being radicalised.
The programme must keep up with new methods of radicalisation. Young people are now being recruited not simply by traditional methods, but by appeals through social media, contacts from friends and so on—different kinds of approaches that need to be responded to. Excellent work is being done by the Channel programme, but more people, particularly those returning from the region, must be required to engage immediately with the programme, which has done important work de-radicalising people and reducing the threat. The Government should also do more in respect of temporary passport seizures. Some who left should have been stopped, and we look forward to working with the Government on ways to bring in those powers.
I hope the Home Secretary will say more about the measures the Prime Minister announced, because there is some confusion around them. Downing street has briefed that people born as British citizens will be prevented from returning to the country, even if they have no alternative citizenship. The Prime Minister says that this would comply with international obligations—international law prevents countries from making their citizens stateless—and has said it would be a targeted, discretionary power to allow us to exclude British nationals from the UK. It sounds as though the Government intend people to remain British citizens but be kept out of the country. How would this work? Do they hope that other countries will adopt people? Is this a temporary exclusion? Are they to be detained at foreign airports or to be deported somewhere else? What is the plan? There is considerable confusion, and no one has yet been able to understand their intention.
On the proposals for terrorism prevention and investigation measures, the Prime Minister has said that relocation powers will be restored, but the Deputy Prime Minister has said they are looking only at existing powers. The Home Secretary knows our view: we have argued from the start that the police and security services need relocation powers at their disposal, subject to the agreement of the courts, to be used in the difficult cases of terror suspects who, for complex reasons, cannot be prosecuted. She has defended the removal of relocation powers in the past, but I hope she will now recognise the importance of reintroducing them. None of those relocated under control orders ever absconded, whereas two of those in whose cases the relocation powers were removed under TPIMs did then abscond. She has not confirmed that relocation powers will be introduced or said when they will be introduced. The powers are ready, in the clauses drafted and scrutinised as part of emergency legislation, and we stand ready to bring them in as soon as she brings them forward. Will she confirm that she intends to do so?
This has been a complex and thoughtful debate. The challenge is to protect our security and the values of our democracy. In certain areas, we need not only strong powers but strong checks and balances to protect the values and the liberty of our democracy, as well as the safety of our citizens. The challenge abroad is to act with humility but determination and to pursue the co-operation and collaboration we need at a time when those threats are becoming more complex than ever.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
We have indeed had an extremely interesting debate and have heard a wide range of views.
The debate was opened by a powerful and thoughtful speech by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who set out the Government’s position with great clarity. I welcome the careful and serious response from the shadow Foreign Secretary and his hope that it will be possible to work together to address the challenges we face, for events in Ukraine, north Africa and most particularly the middle east all pose grave and significant challenges, and it is right that the House has had a chance to debate these issues fully.
Indeed, the role of Parliament, not just in debating these issues but in consideration of possible military action, was a theme referred to by a number of hon. Members, including my right hon. and learned Friends the Members for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and my hon. Friends the Members for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) and for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray). As the shadow Home Secretary said, there have been a large number of contributions to this debate. I might not be able to refer to all of them, but I will do my best during the time available to me.
A number of speakers referred to Ukraine, including the hon. Members for Preston (Mark Hendrick) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and my hon. Friends the Members for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) raised a specific issue about the annexation of Crimea. I can assure her that this Government do not and will not recognise the illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. The hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) reminded us that what is happening in Ukraine has had an impact on us here, by referring to the fact that sadly one of her constituents died in the attack on flight MH17.
A number of other Members focused on Israel, Hamas and Gaza. Not all of them shared the same analysis of these issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) spoke about the threat from Hamas. The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) also referred to these issues and asked about debating the US-UK mutual defence agreement. I can tell him that, in accordance with the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, proposed amendments will be laid before Parliament for scrutiny later in the year. The issue of Gaza was also referred to by the hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Newport West (Paul Flynn).
The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) raised some specific issues, including one relating to DEFRA. I will ensure that she gets a written response to her question.
For most Members of the House, however, this was an opportunity to refer to issues relating to Iraq and Syria. Some common themes came out from their contributions. The first—perhaps it seems an obvious one, but it is still worth saying—was that anything we do should mean acting in the national interest. A number of Members referred to the importance in doing that of considering our values, which underpin our actions. They included my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my hon. Friends the Members for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) and for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who advocated more funding for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—I am not sure whether the Foreign Secretary was here at that point. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border also referred to the importance of the knowledge, understanding and expertise in the Foreign Office in looking at these issues, but also the understanding that we need to have of our place in the world and the values that underpin the actions we undertake.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) referred to the NATO summit, the latter saying that what came out of it underlined the United Kingdom’s place in the world.
There was also a shared analysis of the brutality and barbarism of ISIL and the threat that it poses to the United Kingdom. Reference to that was made by, for example, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) and my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes).
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about the actions—the terrible actions in some cases—taken against Christians, not just in Iraq but in other parts of the world, and about the impact of those actions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway) made a link, which I do not think anybody else made, between the operation of ISIL and its financing from criminal activities.
Another theme was the need to build alliances in order to deal with the threat. The hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) said that we need a coalition to defeat the caliphate. My hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) talked about working with states in the middle east and made reference to his long-standing concern about the need to work with communities here in the United Kingdom.
A theme in a number of speeches was that the Government should work to a strategy, but also that we should be prepared to take the action necessary to protect our national security. The possibility of air strikes was referred to by a number of Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). Having said that, there were some words of warning from the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) —he is not in his place, so my pronunciation can pass by—and the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) referred to the need to talk more, a point echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner).
A number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), spoke about the importance of an inclusive Government in Iraq and it is a concern shared by the Government. Other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), raised the need to ensure that there are adequate resources for our needs.
There was not always an agreed position on Syria. It was interesting to note that the right hon. Members for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and for Neath (Mr Hain), both senior members of the Opposition and former Cabinet Members, joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), were all of the mind that there should be talks with Assad—a position not shared by the Government.
We are ever alert to the changing nature of the threat posed by terrorism to Britain and its interests abroad. In recent years, we have seen the threat continue to diversify, and it can come from any number of countries or groups. It is manifesting itself most sharply at present in Syria, but north Africa and the Sahel are also examples of this worrying trend. Extremist groups, including al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and like-minded groups in Libya, are increasingly able to operate across vast and ungoverned spaces.
Last year, we saw an al-Qaeda-linked group attack the In Amenas gas facility in Algeria, killing 40 people, including six British nationals. We have seen terrorist attacks in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, and a threat to British nationals of kidnap and attack. We are working closely with our Government counterparts in north Africa to support them in countering the terrorist threats more effectively, but tackling terrorism in such areas remains a real challenge, making it all the more imperative to take a robust and comprehensive domestic approach to countering terrorism.
Before I focus on Syria and Iraq in that connection, let me respond to a point raised by the right hon. Member for Blackburn about Iran and the issue of reopening an embassy in Tehran. We will do that as soon as the practical issues can be resolved, including those associated with re-establishing any visa service. I am sure he will understand the need for the appropriate infrastructure, staffing and the processes to ensure that we can offer a proper service. It is the practical considerations that are a matter of concern.
The collapse of Syria and the emergence of terrorist groups such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant pose very significant challenges to our national security. As we have heard, we are seeing an unprecedented concentration of the terrorist threat in and from Syria and Iraq. Terrorist groups fighting in Syria are supported by increasing numbers of foreign fighters, including numbers in the hundreds from this country and thousands from elsewhere. This presents a significant challenge due not only to the number of people fighting with the many Syria and Iraq-based terrorist groups, but to their proximity to the UK, ease of travel across porous borders in the region and the availability of weapons. We are indeed looking to see what further powers we need to take here in the United Kingdom to be able to deal with the threat that these people pose.
People who insist on travelling to fight in Syria and Iraq will be investigated by the police and security services. We have already taken tough action on rules governing the use of the royal prerogative. The Serious Crime Bill, which is in another place, will close the gap in our powers to ensure that any British national who prepares or trains for terrorism abroad can be prosecuted in this country as if they had carried out those activities in the UK. We are also confronting the poisonous ideology that feeds, supports and sanctions terrorism—a point made by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and referred to by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). As the Prime Minister has said, we are in the midst of a generational struggle against a deadly, extremist ideology, and we will do everything we can, as a Government, to ensure that we have the powers that are necessary to deal with it.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa and security.
Business without Debate
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 3 to 5 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Equality
That the draft Equality Act 2010 (Equal Pay Audits) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 30 June, be approved.
Local Government
That the draft Local Audit (Auditor Panel Independence) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 3 July, be approved.
Arms and Ammunition
That the draft Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 7 July, be approved.—(Damian Hinds.)
Question agreed to.
Backbench Business
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Select Committee on Governance of the House
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House welcomes the Speaker’s announcement on 1 September of a pause in the process of appointment of a new Clerk of the House and Chief Executive, to give time for further consideration; and accordingly determines that:
(a) there shall be a select committee, called the House of Commons Governance Committee, to consider the governance of the House of Commons, including the future allocation of the responsibilities for House services currently exercised by the Clerk of the House and Chief Executive;
(b) the Committee report to the House by 12 January 2015;
(c) the Committee shall have the powers given to select committees related to government departments under paragraph 4(a) and 4(b) of Standing Order No. 152;
(d) Mr Jack Straw be the Chair of the Committee;
(e) the Committee shall consist of seven other backbench members, to be elected by parties in the proportion of three Conservative, two Labour and one Liberal Democrat, together with one representative of the other parties represented in the House; the parties shall forward their nominations to the Chair of the Committee of Selection by 14 October and any motion made in the House on behalf of the Committee of Selection by the Chair or another member of the Committee shall be treated as having been made in pursuance of Standing Order No. 121(2) for the purposes of Standing Order No. 15(1)(c).
It is an honour to open a debate on a motion to which so many distinguished Members have added their names—the co-sponsors include the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), the right hon. Members for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) and for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart)—and which has commanded support at all levels throughout the House.
The role of the Clerk of the House dates back to at least 1363. Today, the Clerk serves, first, as the House’s adviser on all aspects of procedure, practice and privilege and as the editor of “Erskine May”; secondly, as the chief executive of the House service and chair of the management board; and also, importantly, as accounting officer, as corporate officer, and as the head of the Clerks department, responsible for some 800 members of staff.
The motion is straightforward. It welcomes the announcement by the Speaker of a pause in the current recruitment to the post of Clerk; it establishes a new time-limited Select Committee to consider the governance of the House; it nominates the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) as Chair of that Committee; and it outlines the powers of the Committee, its reporting date and the election of its members. The debate arises because of widespread concern among Members in all parts of the House that the process governing the appointment of the next Clerk of the House was seriously flawed.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
John McDonnell
I merely ask for clarification. Does the hon. Gentleman see the new Committee as a time-limited exercise, or as a permanent body?
Jesse Norman
As the motion makes clear, the Committee will be time-limited and report in January next year.
There has been some misunderstanding, and much heated discussion, of the clerkship. Those are issues to which I have no desire to add, but the following facts are not in dispute. First, the chosen candidate, Ms Carol Mills, an administrator in the Australian Parliament, was not qualified for the specifically constitutional and procedural functions exercised by the Clerk. Secondly—
Jesse Norman
I am very pressed for time. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not mind if I allow him to intervene later, perhaps at the end of my speech. We are under tremendous time pressure.
Secondly, Ms Mills was and, indeed, is herself subject to an inquiry by the Australian Parliament. Thirdly, the Speaker’s panel of selection was purely advisory, and was smaller than, and assembled on a different basis from, that used in 2011. Fourthly, the terms of the process of recruitment changed from the original terms set out by the House of Commons Commission on 30 April 2014. Fifthly, while acknowledging the Clerk’s executive functions, the advertisement for the post in The Sunday Times led with, and specifically emphasised, “constitutional matters” and the Clerk’s role as
“chief adviser to the Speaker, the Leader of the House and other members of the Front Bench on matters of procedure and privilege”.
Sixthly, outside headhunters, Saxton Bampfylde, were used for the first time. Seventhly, despite all that, the final candidate—Ms Mills—was, in effect, recruited for a job that did not then exist as such, that of chief executive of this House. Finally, the letter nominating Ms Mills was signed by the Speaker on the advice of the panel, was sent to 10 Downing street during the recess, and, but for the intervention of Parliament, might have been forwarded to Buckingham Palace during the recess.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
I am delighted that my hon. Friend has put this motion before the House today. Is he aware that I understand from an answer to me that the panel was completely unaware that Carol Mills was undergoing investigation—two investigations, actually—by the Australian Senate before it made its decision? Moreover, Saxton Bampfylde wished to inform the panel that that was the case, and the panel was advised not to take evidence from it.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. There are lots of speakers on the list, including the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), who I want to get in early on, so we must have very short interventions.
Jesse Norman
I was not aware of that, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it now.
The Speaker has made clear his personal support for a split between the roles of Clerk and chief executive. In a statement to the House last week he called for the issues of a pre-appointment hearing and a possible split in roles to be examined and the views of Members to be solicited in detail. This debate, and the governance Select Committee and procedure for wider consultation proposed in the motion, are the House’s response to that request by the Speaker.
The proper governance of this House is a matter of enormous public importance. Indeed, it is properly considered a constitutional matter, first, because the British constitution—at least such as it is for the next eight days—relies on the effective functioning of Parliament and, secondly, because this Parliament, and especially the Clerk, act as the final word on procedural matters for a host of further Parliaments across the Commonwealth.
Contrary to popular belief, parliamentary procedure—the rules of the game—is not some pettifogging accretion, or irrelevant decoration, to the business of democratic government; it is the essence of democratic government. This country is governed by laws, laws are made in Parliament, and that Parliament is run according to rules and procedure; without procedure, there could be no government. Indeed, even the role of chief executive has a constitutional dimension, because the capacity of Members to hold the Government to account rests in part on how well they are enabled to function by the House service.
Because of the importance of this subject, the House has regularly sought to assess the quality of its own governance. Three times in the last 30 years it has invited outside experts to lead a process of review: Sir Robin Ibbs, Mr Michael Braithwaite and Sir Kevin Tebbit. No institution is perfect, of course, and some of their criticisms have been stringent. Even so, those reviews have identified a fairly clear, if inconsistent, path of reform and modernisation.
The first such review, the Ibbs review of 1990, painted a pretty damaging picture of administrative incompetence:
“Good financial management systems and the associated control mechanisms did not exist. There was no effective planning, measurement of achievement against requirement, nor assessment of value for money.”
The Braithwaite review in 1999 acknowledged the constitutional significance of a properly resourced and effective Parliament. It recognised that
“the Ibbs team found a situation which was profoundly unsatisfactory in terms of responsibilities, structure and operation.”
It acknowledged that significant progress had been made, but at the same time it made clear that
“full implementation of Ibbs was slow and in some areas did not occur.”
The Tebbit review in 2007 was rather more encouraging. It concluded that:
“The present system is certainly not broken”
and that it was “well regarded overall”. It mentioned
“effective management of delivery and services”,
adding it was
“highly effective in core scrutiny and legislative functions”,
but it made a crucial exception for the management of the estate and works. It recommended steps to improve integration, transparency and clarity of management goals, and to create a stronger finance function and greater professional management across the board.
To those, we may perhaps add one last data point. In the recent debate on the retirement of the last Clerk, Sir Robert Rogers, the House was united not only in acclaiming the merits of Sir Robert himself as Clerk, but in acknowledging the progress the House had made in key areas of management and modernisation. Those include implementing a substantial savings programme without loss of service, the introduction of new IT and a drive towards paperless working, far greater outreach and significant improvement on issues of diversity and equality, as well as a new apprenticeships programme.
The Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), aptly summarised the situation by recognising
“a transformation in the management of the House Service, which has moved from what could be described as an era of gifted amateurism to one of thoroughly competent professionalism.”—[Official Report, 16 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 901.]
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I recently had the privilege of attending an international conference on modernising parliaments. Although we have made progress in this country, we are behind many other countries. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need to keep moving forward and to ensure that whoever is appointed is the right person to drive forward change?
Jesse Norman
I regret that I was not at that conference, and I am unfamiliar with the comparisons that might be made, but I absolutely agree that continued progress in modernisation and management is important.
Mr Frank Field
Surely we do not want modernisation for modernisation’s sake. We want it so that we can carry out our major functions more effectively. They are to hold those on the Treasury Bench to account and to conduct an intelligent five-yearly election campaign.
Jesse Norman
I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that, as a strict Burkeian, I—along with many Members of the House—believe in intelligent reform. I therefore broadly share the perspective that he offers.
I believe that we can draw a number of conclusions from this matter. First, it is facile and mistaken to argue that the House is poorly managed today simply because it was poorly managed in the 1980s and 1990s. Rather, there has been steady if somewhat inconsistent progress against a background of massive growth in demand for House services, significant change in information technology, and rising standards and expectations both from Members and from the general public. It would be a tragedy if that process of improvement and modernisation were to be set back by an obviously flawed appointment to the present clerkship.
These reviews have come at eight to nine-year intervals, and the proposed governance Committee would report next year, eight years after the Tebbit review. This debate therefore falls at a highly opportune time, and doubly so because circumstances and the needs of Members and of the general public, as well as politics and Parliament itself, have continued to evolve—and might, I fear, evolve further next week. A specific challenge is presented by the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. This mammoth project might, it seems, be managed by a specific delivery authority that is accountable to this House and the other place.
As the motion makes clear, a key issue to be addressed by the Committee is whether the roles of Clerk and chief executive should be split. The Ibbs, Braithwaite and Tebbit reports all came down against a split, but it is absolutely right that the issues here should be re-examined by the Committee in the light of changing needs and circumstances. I suggest that that question rests in turn on the answers to several further questions. If the roles are to be split, how exactly would the split work? What functions would fall on either side of the divide, and why? Presumably, in any scenario, the Clerk would continue to be responsible for the Clerk’s department of 800 people, or just under half the total employed.
Furthermore, would the Clerk and the chief executive be coequal? That would require careful thought, as there are cases in business where such an arrangement has succeeded, and cases where it has failed. If they were not coequal, who should report to whom? Would the Clerk, authorised and protected by letters patent, report to the chief executive, or would the chief executive report to the Clerk—in which case what, apart from the job title, would have changed? What would be the implications for relations between the Houses? What legislation would be required if the Clerk were no longer to be corporate officer? Finally, what would the cost be of such a split, in both salary and other costs?
Let me conclude with two reflections. The first concerns the present nomination. The letter nominating Ms Mills as Clerk was signed by the Speaker, on advice. Constitutionally, he and he alone has the capacity to withdraw that letter. I would request that he now do so. The second concerns the process of selection. The Tebbit review in 2007 recommended that the clerkship be subject to the selection board process used to select permanent secretaries, but that approach was not adopted. Whatever its merits, I would ask that, perhaps after the report of the Committee, the House of Commons Commission reconsider, agree and publish new proposals for a fully open, competitive and transparent selection process for the clerkship.
Reform of the governance of this House is, like marriage in the words of the prayer book,
“not by any to be enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly...but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly”.
This motion is designed to enable sober reform, and I commend it to the House.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I must say that we now have a four-minute limit.
Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab)
With no written constitution, the governance of this House has itself considerable constitutional significance, and this is a debate on governance; it is not one for or against modernisation, still less is it, as some seem to have suggested, a debate to undermine our Speaker, an enterprise in which I would have no part. No proposal merely by being labelled “modernisation” will thereby gain my support, but I neither fear nor resist change in this House. As some hon. Members will recall, in the 1990s, as Leader of the House, I chaired the all-party Modernisation Committee. Minor, irritating rules were swept aside. We allowed photographs to be taken in Members’ offices, and journalists to take tape recorders into the Press Gallery and TV cameras into Central Lobby. More importantly, we made substantial changes in the handling of business. Recess dates had been a guessing game, announced as late as possible, often only four to five weeks before even the summer recess. We realised that reasonable confidence about delivering the legislative programme would be a requirement for any Government, and a properly scheduled timetable for examining Bills had long been recommended by the Procedure Committee. The introduction of programme motions paved the way for published sitting dates and a proper parliamentary calendar. More minor and technical matters, then discussed and decided after the main business—at midnight if we were lucky and into the small hours if we were not—were deferred for decision until Wednesday lunchtime, though with provision for wider scrutiny if need be.
All those changes were hugely controversial and hotly resisted, but the ugly truth is that, for example, there was always a programmed timetable for every Bill. It was just that it was secret, known only to the Government’s business managers and not always to all of them. Sittings in Westminster Hall massively increased the time for Back-Bench debates and discussion of Select Committee reports, but were also fiercely resisted by many, such as our current Speaker, who were rightly concerned to preserve the supremacy of this Chamber.
My simple point is that all these reforms, major or minor, were proposed to the House in a report from the Modernisation Committee, debated in the House and decided by a vote in the House as a whole. Some things, such as Westminster Hall, were introduced as an experiment with a sunset clause. Whether the Clerk to the House should also act as its chief executive has been part of such discussions on many occasions over the years, and I am certainly open to such an idea. I have a degree of reservation. I say with due deference to the Clerk that in my experience of five years as Leader of the House or shadow Leader of the House, I found that getting the Clerks to see the point of view of Members can be an uphill struggle. An administrator less familiar with the workings and concerns of the House might be even worse, but I have no quarrel at all with a reassessment of the full implications of such a change. I say a full reassessment because some of the wider implications of such a decision are new, at least to me. I believe the motion offers a constructive way forward and is really worthy of support.
Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con)
When I was a member of the House of Commons Commission, we agreed in April that there should be a review of governance, in order to determine in the future whether the post of Clerk of the House should continue to be combined with that of chief executive. The Commission also concluded that it was neither legal nor practical to make a change at that time. We therefore agreed to advertise the post of Clerk and chief executive on the same basis as happened in 2011. I remind the House that in this Parliament, in 2011, an open competition took place for the post of Clerk and chief executive. Both Clerks and non-Clerks applied and were interviewed. Robert Rogers, of course, was appointed and proved a successful occupant of the post. We may have wished, with good reason, that he would have continued on in post and not retired, but that was not to be.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) said, the combined post of Clerk and chief executive developed in response to the Ibbs report of November 1990, which found profound failings then. When the Braithwaite report looked again in 1999, it reported substantial improvements and said that the leadership of the Clerk of the House, acting as chief executive, had been instrumental in that progress. Paragraph 4.63 summarised the situation well:
“The Clerk is armed with most of the skills and attributes needed for the role…He has the authority of his office; demonstrable leadership at a high level; deep knowledge of the political context and process, and all the skills required to operate effectively in this environment; and a profound understanding of the business of supporting the House and its work.”
The Tebbit review in 2007 looked again at whether an outsider should run the House service and recommended that the Clerk should continue to perform the dual role of Clerk and chief executive. I encourage hon. Members to read paragraphs 86 to 88 of the Tebbit review.
Why did I support the need for a review at the Commission in April? First, while the restoration and renewal project from 2020 onwards must have discrete project governance, it would certainly benefit from having one client, not two. A chief executive acting for both Houses of Parliament would bring clarity and coherence in the years during which the R and R project is under way. Such a review would need to be undertaken together with the House of Lords. That is not in our gift this evening, but we can seek for that to happen.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
On a small technical matter, am I not right in thinking that the director-general for resources is already responsible for the Commons end and the Lords end?
Mr Lansley
Yes, there is joint working in some respects. That is one area. Information technology and security are others. But generally there is not joint working in relation to the Parliament and the estate as a whole. Under those circumstances, one would have to forgo the possibility of the Clerk also being chief executive as this House and the House of Lords would have to retain a separate Clerk of the House and Clerk of the Parliaments. There would of course be attendant risks in separating out those functions, but a potential efficiency gain of a significant kind overall.
I support the motion and look forward to the Select Committee considering it. None the less, I urge the Select Committee to take evidence and to consider that wider potential context within which it could work. However, the Select Committee cannot resolve the current impasse in the appointment process, which is “paused”. I saw the case for a pause—I often do—but it cannot now be continued. The Commission has the authority to cancel the current appointment process. It should do so now. It is no criticism of Carol Mills, who interviewed well, to say that her knowledge of the constitutional and procedural issues, as required of the Clerk of the House, would not suffice. I took that view, but was not supported by the majority of the selection panel. It is particularly regrettable that Mr Speaker sought expressly to water down the 2011 requirement in the job description that the Clerk should have
“detailed knowledge of the procedures and practices of the House.”
Mr Speaker sought to replace “detailed knowledge” with “awareness”.
By way of compromise, the word “detailed” was left out. But the selection panel was not therefore asked to subject candidates to the same test as in 2011. The process for appointment was, therefore, ill-founded, and any internal candidate with the procedural and practical knowledge but less opportunity to be a chief executive of a large organisation was at a disadvantage.
I propose that the current appointment process be scrapped; that an internal temporary appointment to the post of Clerk of the House should be made; and that an internal appointment to the post of chief operating officer could be made. That was proposed to the selection panel, but not supported. It is now the right way forward.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
I rise to support the motion in the name of the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and proposed for debate this evening by the Backbench Business Committee.
After concerns from Members about the recruitment of a new Clerk and chief executive, this motion allows us to move forward swiftly in pursuit of a solution that can unite the House.
Before I address the content of the motion in detail, I would first like to refer briefly to the events that have led us here. I was one of six members of the panel that reached a consensus agreement and suggested a name to the Prime Minister for recommendation to Her Majesty the Queen. I think it would be invidious to say the least if I were to go into details of what happened during that process. Suffice it to say that we spent more than 20 hours interviewing a wide range of candidates, judging them against a clear job description, through a fair and robust process. This was the first time that recruitment of the Clerk has been done through a completely open process of the kind we would expect for a senior appointment in any other profession.
Meg Hillier
I welcome the approach of having an open process. Does my hon. Friend regret that the House has used its privilege to name candidates in the recruitment process in the way it has?
Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
I am trying to understand the precise process, particularly in the light of what the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), has just said. Did the panel agree before the interview process the job description it judged against, or was that presented as a fait accompli?
Ms Eagle
My memory is that we agreed it. It is important that I do not go into too much detail on the Floor of the House, and essentially in public, about what happened in a process that resulted in agreement. As I have said, I am happy that the process was open and fair, and that it came to a conclusion by consensus.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
On the point about a true and open process, does the hon. Lady believe that, with the information that has come to light subsequently, the process cannot be seen to have been an open and visible one?
Ms Eagle
The members of the commission spent 20 hours of their lives conducting a process along the lines of all other processes that go on outside the House for appointing senior posts. We cannot be criticised for not knowing something that came to light subsequently, whether it is relevant or not.
Charlie Elphicke
I want to move on to governance rather than personalities. The hon. Lady says the decision was arrived at by consensus, and yet it has caused massive disunity in the House. What does that say about the contact and in-touchness of those involved in the process with the wider House of Commons, and what does it say about House of Commons governance and accountability?
Ms Eagle
The decision has caused worries for some people, but I do not think it has caused the amount of controversy the hon. Gentleman suggests. There are people on both sides of the argument. He should not imagine that, when the panel made the decision, we were being out of touch. We were making an honest judgment after being presented with candidates in an open and transparent way. He might not agree with the decision, but the process was open and transparent, and in line with ordinary procedure for the appointment of such posts anywhere but the House.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will my hon. Friend accept congratulations from many hon. Members on the sterling work she and the group did in conducting the process? As she has said, it took more than 20 hours. She will be aware that some in the House—mainly Government Members—have a secret agenda, which is usually, “Let’s have a go at the Speaker.” We know what has been going on and we know where it comes from.
Ms Eagle
I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. Many intertwining things have brought us to this point. I would not like to traduce the motivations of anybody who contributes to the debate, but the motivations of those who were on the commission should not be traduced either. It is important that we accept that.
I should like to get back to the terms of the motion. As I said, the process was in line with the kind of process that one would expect for any other senior appointment outside this place. In the recent past, the appointment was at the discretion of the Speaker, who was handed two names by the retiring Clerk. Even if some Members objected to the result of the process, I think it is welcome that the tradition of the Speaker getting to choose between two names handed to him by the predecessor Clerk has been left behind and that the House is trying finally to bring its recruitment processes into the 21st century.
Although I do not want to comment any further on the proceedings of the panel, I understand the concern of some Members at the outcome and I welcome today’s motion. The worries have centred around the fact that despite being eminently qualified as a chief executive, the successful candidate is not an expert on parliamentary procedure. However, the fact is that an expert on parliamentary procedure who has spent their entire working life in our excellent Clerk’s department is unlikely to be able to demonstrate the requirements needed to be an outstanding chief executive. That is why the Hansard Society, through its Puttnam commission in 2005, advocated splitting the Clerk and chief executive roles and why it has advocated governance reforms since.
It is clear that we have a tension at the heart of the role of Clerk and chief executive and considering some of the imminent changes facing the House Administration, I believe that it is evident that that tension is likely to get worse and to do so quite quickly. The restoration and renewal project could mean Members having to decant this building for an entire Parliament or longer. However it is accomplished, it will be complex and extremely demanding, exposing us to huge practical challenges and to great reputational risk. I might add that I firmly believe that it might also be a great opportunity to take a new look at how Parliament operates and communicates with the people it is here to serve.
A programme of digital transformation has already been embarked on, with the twin aims of radically improving Parliament’s ability to work and communicate and achieving a step change in our efficiency. There is the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy, which is exploring the potential offered by digital communications to enhance our interaction with our constituents. It often seems to me that our IT equipment actively stands in the way of our doing our jobs effectively when it should be facilitating greater communication in a secure and robust way.
There is the challenge of the looming general election —we all have our own challenges coming up with that.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Ms Eagle
No.
The general election will mean managing the end of the first ever fixed-term Parliament and the first coalition since the second world war against the backdrop of the very volatile times in which we are living. More than 2,000 staff require management and Parliament handles a budget of more than £200 million. I believe that the smooth operation of change management in these vital areas is just as important in the delivery of parliamentary services as the crucial advice we receive from our Clerks in their important interpretation of “Erskine May” and our procedures. In 2007, as the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), said, the Tebbit report considered and dismissed the idea of the separation of the role of Clerk and chief executive. However, the report said that Clerks hoping to be appointed chief executive should in future have “senior management experience” and that should mean
“having spent a period outside the Clerk's Department and preferably beyond the confines of Westminster”.
Ms Eagle
No.
That has not happened, but the challenges facing the holder of the Clerk and chief executive’s job have undoubtedly multiplied. It now makes sense, therefore, to revisit the original consideration of the report and whether we should split the role, which is why I welcome the motion before us this evening and urge the House to support it.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
I am pleased to participate in this debate. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House had intended to speak as Leader of the House and, in the absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), on behalf of the Commission, but he has asked me to speak on his behalf and on behalf of the Commission.
The Commission met on Monday to discuss, among other matters, the recruitment process for the Clerk of the House. As Mr Speaker has clearly indicated, it is vital that Members have the opportunity to express their views on this important issue. The Commission therefore decided not take decisions relating to the recruitment of the Clerk or the governance of the House until it had the opportunity to hear the views of Members, both in this debate and through the many expressions of opinion that Mr Speaker has received.
As Members may know, the Commission recognises the need for a review of the governance of the House and, indeed, took a decision in April to begin such a review later this year. The views of Members on this House’s governance are clearly of paramount importance. It is therefore entirely proper for a Select Committee to undertake this work. Assuming that the House agrees to its establishment today, I am sure that the Commission will be happy to provide any information and practical support that the Committee may require. The Commission will be mindful of its overarching responsibility to ensure the proper governance of the House, and equally aware that the outcome of the process needs to be one in which the House can have confidence.
I now want to say a few words from a Government perspective. I am naturally keen to help the House resolve this matter—and it is squarely a House matter rather than one for Government—so I welcome the initiative shown by the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and others who have tabled the motion that we are considering this evening.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
As usual, the Deputy Leader of the House is making a powerful speech. On his point about the setting up of the Select Committee being a House matter, it has always been my understanding that members of the Executive do not vote on the creation of memberships of Select Committees. Has that now changed?
Tom Brake
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I will respond to it later.
It is in all our interests—Government, Opposition, Back Benchers and the House service as a whole—that this matter is resolved in a timely manner with due consideration. I do not seek in any way to pre-empt the work of the Committee, but there are certain principles that it will wish to bear in mind and issues that it will wish to to address. Let me flag up four. First, as Members, we expect to have access to the highest quality of advice. We rely heavily on the expert advice of the Clerk on matters of procedure and constitutional propriety. It goes without saying that the effective functioning of the House relies on the confidence of Members in its senior management and especially in the Clerk of the House as its principal procedural adviser.
Secondly, on a related point, it is vital that the Clerk is, and is seen to be, totally independent and not in any way dependent on the support of political parties or others. Advice must be dispensed without fear or favour. That is why the Clerk is appointed by the sovereign by letters patent and is not an employee of the Commission.
Thirdly, it is important that the House has a decision-making structure that is fit for the substantial challenges that we face, and is transparent. Members and the public must know who is accountable for decisions made.
Finally, any management structure must be cost-effective. Just as the Government have cut the cost of politics, the House has delivered substantial savings to the taxpayer since the last election, meeting its 17% savings target. Any new arrangements should support the efficient and cost-effective delivery of services to Members and to the public.
If the motion is agreed to, I hope that the Select Committee will be able to begin its work rapidly and conclude by the deadline. The Government will seek to ensure that the House has an opportunity to debate the Committee’s conclusions at an early opportunity, so that resulting appointments can be made as rapidly as possible.
In response to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), the election of Members to the Committee is a matter for the parties.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
My right hon. Friend has not referred to the interim arrangements that are being put in place. I want an assurance that it is difficult for him to give, because he is not a member of the Commission, that the Commission will invest the Clerk Assistant with sufficient authority to do all the things that are required of the Clerk, of the kind that my right hon. Friend has described, and to delegate such of his functions as make it possible to carry out those roles.
Tom Brake
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I can certainly assure him that the Commission will be following tonight’s debate very carefully and will, I am sure, want to act on it and on what he has suggested.
I have enjoyed hearing the views that Members have expressed so far, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members in this debate and elsewhere.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
First, I think we owe a duty of care to Carol Mills. It is not her fault that she has been caught up in this controversy. We also owe a duty of respect to Mr Speaker and the office of Speaker. Whispering campaigns and media briefings of the types we have seen do no service to the House or its Members.
I commend the speeches made by the shadow Leader of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett). My right hon. Friend spelled out the limited changes that have been achieved against the odds over the past 20 years and, by doing so, illustrated the real challenge in bringing about radical change, improvement and simple modernisation. What she described were very simple, common-sense changes that were achieved against the odds. It is time that this House got itself well into the 21st century.
I do not often bow to parliamentarians or politicians from either side of the House, but on procedural matters I would do so, because I am not an expert. I am absolutely sure, however, that the procedures and constitution serve the process of democracy, rather than the other way around. We are here to serve our public and to bring about radical change—to be change makers—and we can only do that if the processes, procedures and efficiency of the House allow us to do so. We need screens to work and for computers not to go down all the time and—the public might not like this—for restaurants to actually be open when we are here: things we would expect in any business. Over the past 27 years I have always been amazed at how radicals come into this House and are incorporated and how business people come into this House but do not seem to bring their business experience to bear on the processes we are addressing.
I commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who has enormous experience over many years of advising, serving and leading in government. I wish him well, because at the end of his remarkable career the outcome of this Select Committee will determine how the process will work and how the House will function for years to come, and whether it will contribute to a reform of our democracy at a time of incredible change, when the United Kingdom faces critical issues constitutionally and for the future of our nation. If this House cannot modernise itself and get up to speed with what would be taken for granted elsewhere, we are doomed.
I have often thought that I had a desk at the Natural History museum. Learning from evolution is important, because this House is built on years of experience and it would not be appropriate to sweep it aside. We need a highly qualified and experienced chief Clerk of this House who is able to advise Members and the Government. We need to ensure that we get that right. It is perfectly feasible for that to happen through the expertise built up over years in this House—that is the expression that has been used—while at the same time having a chief executive who will lead us through the difficult task of changing the environment not only physically but democratically. We can get this right, but it deserves more than simple whispering behind hands—it deserves real reform and modernisation for the future.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I am the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee and as I listened to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), I thought about how this debate is a microcosm of the debate that is going on in Whitehall about how to get Whitehall machinery to operate in a much more open, accountable and transparent way. I use the word “accountable” because I think a lot of this debate has arisen because there is a sense, particularly among younger and, dare I say it, more impatient Members—like myself, of course—that there is an opacity, a sort of Victorian mystery about the way in which this place works.
This whole episode has been painful for the House of Commons. I commend those on both sides of the House who have spoken, but particularly the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), who made a dignified and conciliatory speech. We need to avoid dwelling on what has gone wrong; we can learn from that, but we need to move forward.
I spent much of my summer worrying that this issue would divide the House and, because of the controversy, almost poison the office of the Speaker. The purpose of my asking for the motion to be drafted in the manner that it has been drafted, and of suggesting that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) chair the Committee, and of gingerly tip-toeing around the various—increasingly angry—people on all sides of the debate was to try to find a method of resolving the issue in a manner that will not result in a terrible and divisive row about a particular individual. I join the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough in sympathising with the individual who has been exposed in this episode.
My role as Chairman of the Public Administration Committee was to suggest that the ultimate modernisation of the process of appointment of the Clerk would be to make it subject to a pre-appointment hearing. Constitutionally, that matter rests within my Committee’s remit. We will keep that on the table for whichever candidate emerges as the final candidate, because whoever it is should be subject to a pre-appointment hearing. The right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, does the same for the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is an Officer of the House. My Committee does the same for the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, who is also an Officer of the House. The idea that Officers of the House should not be subject to pre-appointment hearings seems to me anachronistic and old-fashioned.
The remit of the new Committee is not about going back over the past, but looking to the future. It is about throwing light on the dim recesses of how this place operates. I say to hon. Members in all parts of the House that change is coming to this place whether we like it or not and—perhaps speaking to Government Members—if we want things to remain the same, things are going to have to change, but this is not about throwing babies out with the bathwater. If there is to be a chief executive, the role must be properly thought about, properly defined and properly embedded within the structures and accountability of the House, and within what the House is for, which is the scrutiny of legislation and the holding to account of the Executive.
We want more involvement for Members, more openness and accountability, and more listening and working together, plus less tearing chunks out of each other over this particular subject, if you please, because that does the House nothing but harm. I think that the proposed Committee is the solution.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I very much echo the sentiments just expressed by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin).
Change and modernisation in the House has always been problematic. I recall that as Leader of the House of Commons between 2003 and 2005, I tried to persuade the House to take its security seriously. The director general of MI5 and the police wanted a professional to be in charge of security, which was a nightmare, frankly. There was strong resistance to change—of the kind that we are now seeing in relation to splitting the roles of Clerk and chief executive—until events conspired to overtake those who were blocking change. Hon. Members may remember the Greenpeace activists scaling Big Ben, the flour bomb at Prime Minister’s questions and, of course, the huntsmen invading the Chamber itself. Only then did we move to appoint a full-time professional head of security, which nobody in their right mind would now question.
I believe that in future years nobody will question the separation of the functions of the Clerk and the chief executive, with two separate appointments. It will seem like the common sense that I believe it is now. At the moment, we have a part-time Clerk and a part-time chief executive, although I mean no disrespect at all to the holders of the post, with whom I have worked closely and whom I admire.
The Clerk’s onerous parliamentary duties occupy the majority of the working day, and involve managing all the immensely complex procedural issues that surround the legislative and other functions of the House. In my view, those duties can be carried out only with the experience and specialist knowledge of a Clerk, such as Sir Robert Rogers, and his able deputies. However, everybody who, like me, has had the privilege to be involved on the inside of the Commons knows full well that the chief executive duties inevitably have to fit around and take second priority to the primary procedural duty. That is the truth of the matter.
As the chief executive, the Clerk now has a splendid building under his charge—a UNESCO world heritage site that attracts well over 1 million visitors each year from all over the world—and oversees more than 1,750 staff, which is equivalent to a very large business, and has a budget of over £200 million. In addition, almost the same number of staff work for Members, bringing the total number of people on the precincts for whom the Clerk is responsible in his role as CEO to more than 3,500.
As the corporate officer of the House of Commons, the Clerk is required to enter into contracts on behalf of the House and to acquire and manage land and property. As the accounting officer, he has responsibilities for public finance, resource accounting and internal control, and he attends meetings of the House’s audit committees. He is responsible for good corporate governance, meeting social and environmental regulations, and retaining and motivating top-quality employees. He must have an awareness of complex employment law, fair remuneration and contracts. He must also introduce proper systems and controls for effective risk management.
Those are onerous duties in today’s litigious, closely regulated employment and administrative environment. I do not think that the skill set required to undertake those tasks in the modern age is necessarily compatible with the skill set required to be Clerk of the House. The question of which role would be superior is a red herring. Both would be answerable to the Speaker, who is the pre-eminent figure.
In summary, my experience as Leader of the House has convinced me that the two posts should be separated. The extra costs involved could perhaps be offset by questioning the continued employment of the director general of facilities. Finally, why should the Clerk have a superior salary to the Speaker or the Prime Minister?
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
This is a crucial decision and we need to make it in a timely and sensible way.
We stand on the threshold of momentous constitutional events. We might even lose a country from our United Kingdom, or we might go into a period of fundamental constitutional change with a massive devolution of powers. We will need good professional advice and leadership to complement the crucial work of the democratically elected politicians.
The Speaker is the servant of the House. Mr Speaker has shown, by the way he has said that there has to be a pause and a reconsideration, that he knows that he is the House’s servant. In turn, the House has to be fair to Mr Speaker. It is our duty tonight to set in process a way of resolving this problem in the best interests of everyone and in a good spirit, knowing that Mr Speaker also wishes the best for our House of Commons and will be guided by the House. It is our duty to come up with competent and sensible guidance for him. He undertook a process with a series of senior Members and an outside adviser in good faith and they came to a judgment. Apparently, that judgment does not suit the House. That is the House’s privilege, but we now need to find a better way of resolving the matter.
This situation has consequences not just because we need good guidance, and especially so at this time, but because if we want the best talent from around the world to apply for jobs in this place, we need to show that we are professional in handling such matters and that there is no danger of an unsuccessful candidate having their name revealed or trashed in the process. That is completely unacceptable.
I am therefore drawn to the view, which some are expressing, that we need to examine quickly but thoroughly the idea that there are two functions and that there need to be two different roles. There are many fine things about this House, but I think that we could be better at some of the things that come under the chief executive’s remit. We have many able, hard-working and talented staff and I do not wish to imply any criticism of them. However, a good chief executive would look at the way in which we handle guests. Are we happy with the queues and the way in which security is handled? We wish to be safe, but we wish to welcome people. They are our guests or our constituents. I do not think that we always get it right. We need to ensure that our catering provides what people want in a timely and sensible way. There might be opportunities to improve that. We certainly need to look again at technology and the how we communicate with those who communicate about us and with the wider world.
Those are all time-consuming tasks and I am not sure that they can be carried out by a constitutional expert living through a constitutional crisis, who needs to be up to speed with everything that happens in this Chamber and with the long history of our traditions, our law codes and our constitution, written and unwritten as it is. Somebody needs to provide that guidance.
Mr Jenkin
My right hon. Friend’s description of the importance of the role of Clerk of the House is absolutely right. I heard the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) say that he did not understand why the Clerk was paid on a different scale from the Speaker and a higher amount. The Clerk is paid on the same scale as a High Court judge, because he is the arbiter of the law of Parliament across the entire Commonwealth. The independence of his remuneration is part of his independence and has to be preserved.
Mr Redwood
I quite agree. It is a crucial role for a very senior lawyer and has to be rewarded accordingly, and at a level that means that they do not have money worries, because they need to spend all their time concentrating on the job. I am quite sure that the Clerk’s role is senior to and more crucial than that of the chief executive, but I also believe that we need to do our guests and ourselves a favour by having the best possible management. We need someone to come in and look again at our standards, our quality, the choice that we offer and the way in which we handle guests, technology, information and research, and our messages.
That is the spirit in which we should enter the debate. We should get behind our Speaker and give him the right instructions, and then we will have a better answer.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
I support the setting up of the Committee, to establish a proper, fair and open recruitment process for the next Clerk of the House. I welcome Mr Speaker’s announcement of a modest pause in the process to allow the House to review the role, report to the Commission and reach a decision, so that we can start the recruitment process again from scratch. There are sound interim measures in place, which will last up to the general election, and it is important that they are not changed until the Committee has reported and the House has voted.
Originally, I came to this issue from a trade union perspective. I was concerned by the fact that the job that was advertised was for a procedural adviser and a chief executive, but that the chosen candidate was qualified only for part of the role—the administrative part. Had the advert been for a chief operating officer or a facilities manager, who knows how many hundreds of people from inside the House, from the civil service and from around the country might have applied? They did not, because they knew that they were not qualified as parliamentary procedural and constitutional advisers. I hope therefore that the Committee will work closely with our in-house trade union colleagues to make sure that we get this right.
This is not about being against modernisation or change; it is about introducing change in a fair way that has the support and agreement of everyone who is affected by it, which is everybody who works in this place. As Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, I have relied heavily on Clerks’ procedural knowledge, expertise and institutional memory. What Clerks do and how they do it may seem dry and old-fashioned, but it is important in ensuring that we all work to an agreed set of rules.
I am a feminist, and I would like nothing more than to see a woman take on one of the most senior positions in this country, but if the job is given to someone who is not qualified for it, it will strengthen the hand of people who think that women cannot succeed. They will say, “You see? They’re not up to it.” It will give the equalities agenda a bad name.
I wish the Committee every success and look forward to hearing all its recommendations.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I support the motion, and I support the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) being the Chairman of the Committee—and not just because he rather surprisingly said very nice things about me in his excellent book.
I am not really known for being an establishment man, and I signed the motion of no confidence in the previous Speaker, so I am not afraid to put my head above the parapet when the need arises. I did not vote for the current Speaker, either. Usually in elections in which there is a secret ballot, the custom is to go around telling all the candidates that we will vote for them, and then choose one to actually vote for. Before the election of the current Speaker, I decided to go and see him and sat down with him for an hour to tell him all the reasons why I was not going to vote for him.
I certainly do not agree with everything that Mr Speaker does, and I guess I do not particularly agree with the decision on this particular appointment or some of the process around it, which was set out very well by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). However, for some of my colleagues to use this issue as a Trojan horse to pursue a personal vendetta against the Speaker carries the danger of making them look absolutely ridiculous. I urge them to end that custom now, because it is not getting us very far.
Those who were elected only in 2010 may be forgiven for thinking that the current Speaker is not particularly to their taste—perhaps they have some gripe with him— because they have no one to benchmark him against. Anybody who was in the previous Parliament should know better. Compared with this Speaker, the previous one was an absolute disgrace. In my opinion we do not know how lucky we are to have the current Speaker, despite any faults that he may have, and anyone who uses this issue as an excuse to go after him does not know what they are talking about.
As for the actual role, until this evening I had been rather disappointed by the lack of noise, so to speak, from people on the panel to claim credit for the decision they took. The responsibility seemed to be left to the Speaker, and nobody else on the panel appeared willing to put their head above the parapet and say that it was also their decision. They appeared quite happy to allow all the custard pies to be thrown at the Speaker, rather than taking some of the hits themselves.
As others have said, I think the role should be divided, and I very much agree with the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) who said that two very different skill sets are required for the two parts of the role. It will always be likely that someone who has the skill set to be a good Clerk may not necessarily have the skill set to be a good chief executive, and vice versa. That seems to me perfectly obvious. That does not mean that some people cannot do the joint roles well. We were very lucky to have in Sir Robert Rogers someone who had the charisma and ability to combine those roles particularly well. However, that should not change the fact that on the whole, more often than not we will not find somebody with that combined skill set, which is why I think the role should be changed. I suspect that the panel and the Speaker made the mistake of picking the person they thought would make the best chief executive, and that if they had chosen the person who they thought would make the best Clerk, we would not be in this situation today. The mood of the House is that the Clerk’s role is more important than that of the chief executive, and that should be the primary point.
Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con)
I intervene only because I had to do a lot of co-operating with the previous Clerk, Sir Robert Rogers, in my capacity as Attorney-General, and I assure the House that the legal knowledge and skills that are required of the Clerk of the House fully justify the salary. It is an immensely complex task, and the House must understand that. At the end of the day, it is not dry; it is what makes this place work or cease to function completely.
Philip Davies
I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend, and given how expert the legal knowledge needs to be, it seems that he was putting in a bid to do the job himself, with his expert legal knowledge.
I will conclude where I started. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate. I think that the way forward in the motion is correct, and there is no one better than the right hon. Member for Blackburn to lead the Committee. I had the privilege of serving on the Modernisation Committee under his chairmanship during the last Parliament—I think I was only put on that Committee, along with Sir Nicholas Winterton, because I hated any modernisation. The right hon. Gentleman is the right man to Chair this Committee, and I hope it comes to the conclusion that the role should be divided. I hope that my colleagues will stop using this issue as a Trojan horse to attack a Speaker who we may not always agree with, but who on the whole is doing a very good job.
Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)
I have deliberately kept my counsel over the past few weeks as a member of the panel, because I thought that was the proper and right thing to do. Although I support the motion and pre-appointment hearings, the way we have got to tonight’s debate shows the House and all of its Members in a very poor light. The often ill-informed and critical comments made by some Members who simply do not know how the process was conducted have been mistaken and misguided. The personal attacks on Mr Speaker have been unwarranted and plain wrong. As somebody who believes fundamentally in the importance of modernising Westminster as part of our endeavour to restore confidence in politics, I think Mr Speaker has made an immense contribution in his work to making us more open, more relevant and more interesting.
The task of the appointment committee was not simply to appoint a Clerk of the House; the post was advertised for both Clerk and chief executive of the House of Commons. The post holder fulfils two functions. That is enshrined in the law, as we have heard, and was recently confirmed by Sir Kevin Tebbit. The Clerks themselves have resisted any change, and the Government too have resisted change in the past. I tell the House that the entire appointment process was extremely thorough, totally professional and very open. Criticisms of the process are entirely unfounded.
Meg Hillier
Does my right hon. Friend not agree that if Members believe that this place is a world-class institution, we should seek to advertise internationally for people to run it?
Margaret Hodge
As a member of a committee that promoted an international candidate, of course I agree with that.
We were very mindful of the importance of the procedural duties associated with the job. There are, however, well over 100 people working in the House who are knowledgeable about and familiar with procedure. We were also mindful that the post holder is responsible for spending more than £200 million of taxpayers’ money and employing 1,750 people. This palace lies at the heart of our democracy, yet the way it is run is wasteful and shambolic. We are asking our constituents to bear substantial expenditure cuts and cuts in services, and while they suffer that we are swimming in inefficiencies. Yet, because some Members concern themselves only with what happens in this Chamber, they are willing to downgrade the vital job of ensuring best value from the expenditure of more than £200 million of their constituents’ hard-earned money.
Things are so shambolic that, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, it can take our constituents an hour to get through St Stephen’s to see us. We overspent massively on the building of Portcullis House, yet managing capital projects seems less important than who is sitting in a chair in the Chamber. It is as important to our democracy to run this place well as it is to have somebody in the chair who is knowledgeable about, and experienced in, procedure. However, because we were mindful of the importance of both roles, we held two rounds of interviews. It proved impossible to find a single individual capable of fulfilling both roles, but several of the members of the panel thought that Carol Mills was the only appointable candidate.
Mr Lansley
I am sorry but that was not the view we took. We found more than one candidate appointable, but the panel took a judgment about which candidate should be recommended. I am afraid it is not correct to say that other candidates were not appointable.
Margaret Hodge
We will have to disagree. I think a different view was expressed at the second round of interviews from that at the first.
However, we were mindful of the fact that advice on procedural matters was vital and that Carol Mills would take time to develop her knowledge and skills. That was precisely the reason we proposed that Mr Natzler’s role should be retitled to provide greater status and that his salary should be increased to reflect that status. The successful candidate excelled at interview, and the fact that she has not walked away despite totally unwarranted personal attacks on her integrity and record confirms in my mind that she has the toughness required to bring the House into the 21st century.
I hope that the motion before the House will be carried, but the way we have got here has been unparliamentary and shameful.
Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con)
I am conscious that I am the fourth former Leader of the House to speak, with possibly one more still to come. I fundamentally disagree with what the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said about the role of the Clerk of the House.
It is worth reminding the House of what happened when the other place decided to modernise an historic office of Parliament—namely the office of Lord Chancellor —and split it into its component parts. There were all sorts of good intentions, but it turned out to be not nearly as straightforward as the authors of the plan assumed and resulted in a considerable backlash. That should be a warning to us to proceed with care, as the motion proposes.
On the central issue of whether it is realistic to expect the diverse qualities needed for a Clerk of the House on the one hand and a chief executive on the other to be found in one person, my view is that in the case of Sir Robert Rogers the answer was yes. I said as much in the tributes to him a few weeks ago, as did many others. One of the key questions for the Select Committee is whether it continues to be realistic to expect to find one person to hold those qualities or whether they need to be separated. The other reason that the Select Committee needs to re-examine the issue is this: not only should it look at separation, but it should look at something short of separation—a sort of devo-max; in other words, as hinted at by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), keeping a Clerk, but having underneath him a chief operating officer to whom certain functions are delegated.
The House has to be crystal clear on the issue of accountability. As Sir Robert Rogers made clear in his letter, many of the decisions that he took as Clerk impacted on the decisions he took as chief executive and vice versa. If we had a chief operating officer answerable to the Clerk, that would provide a focus for services of the House and avoid all the problems of having co-equals, and it would not need legislation. Without primary legislation, the Clerk would still be the corporate officer, with statutory responsibilities that could not be separated from the responsibilities of a chief executive.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend recall that in Sir Kevin Tebbit’s report into the management of this place, one of his recommendations—recommendation 19—was that there should be such a role, namely an operating officer with commercial experience who was the deputy to the Clerk?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for refreshing the House’s memory of that particular Tebbit recommendation. If we had two co-equals, they could play Members off against each other; indeed, Members could play them off against each other too. That has to be taken on board.
Mr Jenkin
I do not prejudge this question, but if we went for a chief operating officer under the Clerk, the really important thing is that the chief operating officer should be directly and visibly accountable, in a way that the present officers under the Clerk are not visible and accountable.
Sir George Young
I think the Commission could make that happen in the terms of reference if we go down that particular route.
I agree that some of the considerable burdens on the Clerk’s shoulders should be removed. In the meantime, I think the appointment process should not be paused; I think it should be aborted. If Carol Mills, with whom I have some sympathy, wanted to show that she understands how this place works, she would withdraw her application, resolve a constitutional impasse and generate some good will among colleagues. My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) made a good point about there being robust interim arrangements in place.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) said, we have to take on board the interface with the other place, where there is a Clerk of the Parliaments, who has a unified command. How would he interface if one separated the jobs down this end?
I have two final points. I am slightly worried about the ambitious time scale for the Select Committee. Nominations for the proposed Select Committee do not close for over a month and then there are but three months to complete the task, including Christmas. The House may have other things on its mind by then. Braithwaite and Tebbit took many months, with people doing nothing else. We may need an interim report in January, if the ground is to be thoroughly covered, and a final report later.
I end by gently asking a question. What would have happened in this case had we not had the safety valve of the Backbench Business Committee, enabling the House not just to make its views known, but to pass a resolution, in a way that was not possible before—a resolution that I am happy to support?
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the fourth former Leader of the House of Commons and become the fifth to speak in the debate. The right hon. Gentleman was right to draw attention to the fandango that greeted the initial proposal not to change the role of the Lord Chancellor but to abolish it—something that, as I am witness, did not quite succeed.
I am grateful to those who tabled the motion—I believe the whole House is—and to the Backbench Business Committee, as the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) said, for finding a way to secure a resolution to what had become a very difficult issue. I am grateful to those who tabled it, too, for nominating me as the Chair of the Select Committee. I hope that such gratitude is something I will still be able to express in December. I and other colleagues elected to the Committee will, I am certain, do our very best and devote as much time as possible to meet the high expectations set out in the motion.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he was slightly worried about the time scale. I am more than slightly worried about it, but it is the time scale. It is impossible for this Committee to hold its first meeting before 14 October. Yes, the end date is 12 January, but taking account of the Christmas recess, the Committee will in practice have nine weeks in the late autumn in which to conduct its business—to take oral and written evidence and to come to a consideration.
The terms of reference of this Committee are wide. The imperative is obviously to make recommendations on the allocation of responsibilities for the House services currently exercised by the Clerk and the chief executive. Whether we will be able to go wider than that remains to be seen.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
A number of us are concerned that this timetable is too tight. If the right hon. Gentleman comes to that conclusion once he has looked into this as Chair of the Committee, will he come back to the House and ask for the timetable to be extended? In that event, would he suggest that an interim chief executive or Clerk, perhaps combined, be appointed?
Mr Straw
If that is the view of the Committee, I would of course come back to the House. My view, however, is that if this job is to be done in this Parliament, it must be done in practice by 12 January, or no more than a couple of weeks later.
I am not standing for Parliament again, but if the House wants to pass a sort of Blackburn-max arrangement and create me as the Member for Blackburn for life, that would be fine; I would vote for that—provided the salary was appropriate! In the real world, however, the few months leading up to the Dissolution in early April will be preoccupied with the matter called the general election. I think we have to do this job as best we can. Then, in late January or early February, we should conduct a debate and come to a decision.
My last point, which is important as a matter of record, is that although I have strong views on almost every subject under the sun, I have no strong views on this matter. I have never expressed strong views on it, and I accept that there are arguments on both sides. My aim will be to ensure that we examine in the most judicious way possible the merits of the case for a single post, for a separated post and for how the separation should work, and then to make recommendations to the House.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I have not engaged myself in the organisation of the House as much as many of those who have already spoken. As I look around the Chamber, I am slightly surprised to see that I am the only Member representing a Scottish constituency who is present. There is a serious point to that, because if a decision is taken on 18 September that Scotland should seek independence—
Sir Menzies Campbell
Separation, if you like. If that happens, the next 18 months and indeed for a long time after, it is going to be enormously testing of every procedure of this House. The volume of legislation will be enormous, and the number of occasions on which the Speaker, and indeed the House—and Front Benchers too—will require expert advice will also be enormous. On that basis, I, at least, am surprised that when it came to this appointment, an acquaintance with parliamentary procedure was thought to be sufficient. In my view, a detailed knowledge of it is essential.
I have some sympathy with those who wish to divide the role into two, but I am concerned—more so than the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)—about the possibilities, indeed the problems, that might be created by two co-equals. What happens if there is a genuine dispute? Is the Speaker to be drawn in as some kind of arbiter? What will be the chain of responsibility? Who will answer to whom? That is why, when the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) was talking about a chief operating officer, I was rather disappointed that the idea was so readily dismissed in some parts of the House. I hope that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) will give it serious consideration .
It should also be remembered that the Clerk of the House is a key part of the constitution of the United Kingdom. If that were not so, the appointment would not be made by the monarch.
Mr Hain
I entirely agree with what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just said about the Clerk’s constitutional role. That is a matter of fact, and I am not suggesting that we challenge it. However, I also think that there should be a separate chief executive role. I do not see why there should not be two senior figures, who will behave as senior figures do, as in any other organisation. Finance directors may disagree with chief executives, but they find a solution, and we could expect the same from those who will take these two roles.
Sir Menzies Campbell
But a chief executive has overall responsibility, and the finance director is below him. I do not have a great deal of experience of commerce or business, but the experience that I do have demonstrates clearly to me that, in the example given by the right hon. Gentleman, there is no doubt about who would have to give way. I simply do not believe that it is right, having regard to the controversy that has surrounded this matter up to now, for us to have a system that allows for further controversy in the future.
Let us return, very quickly, to the question of constitutional importance. I think that it is significant. That is why, in my mind, the primacy of the Clerk as the senior person ought to be preserved, and that is why I think that the suggestion of a chief operating officer makes a great deal of sense.
As I said earlier, it seems to me that the sooner these issues are resolved, the better. That is why I expressed disappointment about the fact that more Members with Scottish constituencies were not present. The length of time allowed to the right hon. Member for Blackburn is extremely short. When a special Select Committee was established to consider the right of the police to enter these premises, I, as Chairman, had to ask for an extension, but the right hon. Gentleman will not have that luxury. I think that we should all be conscious of the fact that we are imposing a considerable burden.
Sir Menzies Campbell
The right hon. Gentleman was a member of that special Select Committee, so I will give way to him.
Mr Blunkett
And a very good Chair the right hon. and learned Gentleman was—but we understood, did we not, as we dealt with those issues, how crucial it was to have someone who had real oversight and managerial experience.
Sir Menzies Campbell
I do not want to reopen the question of the Serjeant at Arms, which formed a substantial part of that Committee’s consideration. I simply say that we need a chain of command that is clear and unambiguous, because anything other than that is likely to lead to controversy of the kind that we have thus far unnecessarily embraced because of the way in which this matter has been dealt with.
I have a great deal of sympathy for Ms Mills, who finds herself to be the subject of such controversy. However, I was powerfully affected by the observation made a moment ago that, had people understood that a chief executive-type person was to be appointed, many more people with those skills might have applied. If we have either separation or, as I prefer, a chief operating officer, it may be very interesting to see the extent to which the volume and nature of candidates is different from what it was in the first instance.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
I have been encouraged by the tone of the debate, and I think there will be unanimity on the motion. I was beginning to think that we are all modernisers now, but in view of one or two of the contributions I am not entirely convinced of that.
Over the last 20 years, since I have been in the House, there has been massive change in business outside as well as in this place. When we look at the developments in employment practices, the real importance now of the agenda for diversity—something that the House never really talked about 20 years ago—the introduction of the internet, the whole issue around cyber and the issues around security, it is clear that the practices of the House have changed enormously. I want to pay tribute to our current Speaker, because I think he has done more than any other Speaker I and other Members have experienced genuinely to try to modernise and open up this House of Commons and make us more contemporary and more in touch with our constituents.
We need only look at the way in which the Speaker has opened up the apartments to voluntary organisations and charities. There have been more people in those Speaker’s apartments over the last few years than there were in the many decades before, and this is their House; they pay for this Parliament through their taxes and they are entitled to have the place open.
Let us look at the establishment of the nursery. Some in this House fought tooth and nail against that because they did not want to lose the rifle range—I think that is what it was—and did not see the need to have a nursery in this place. If we look at the issues around diversity, we see that we now have some fantastic groups here that are seeking to get in the talents of disabled people and people from different backgrounds. The Speaker has supported the placement scheme I set up to bring in working-class people to come and work in Parliament. Robert Rogers, when he was Clerk, supported an apprenticeship programme here in the House which is taking in apprentices, mainly from east London and from many different faith backgrounds, who, again, would never otherwise have got an opportunity to work in this House.
I think this House is dramatically improved by very many of the measures that the Speaker has taken. He has been brave and has been prepared to take on some very establishment views to achieve that change. I think that some of the behaviour of some Members during this process has been pretty appalling, and I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who said that we now have to move forward—not use this as an agenda for people to pursue—and recognise the progress we have made.
I think there are savings to be made if we do this properly and if we do much more of our business jointly with the Lords. I have been involved in a programme that looks at bringing the procurement contracts together between the Commons and the Lords. We are going to put social value clauses in those contracts so that we get maximum social impact from them, and that will achieve a tremendous saving.
Let us be imaginative. Let us be creative. This is not about replacing what we have got with another bit of status quo. This is a fabulous opportunity for my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) to take this place forward.
I personally believe that we need two people. The skills sets are so different that it would be impossible to combine them under one individual. I do not support the idea of a chief operating officer. That would entrench the current hierarchy, and the Clerk would remain the position to have, with the say over what should be chief executive decisions on management, skills, human resources and technology. I think we can have an independent office-holder for procedural advice, with the ability to take decisions on procedure who is not countermanded by the chief executive on those issues, and also have a chief executive who runs this place in the 21st century.
I finish by saying that I am very proud of my history—of course I am—but I certainly do not want to live in it.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
I support what has been said about the need for us to show support for the Chair and to be respectful of it. I must, however, pick a bone with the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who said that he had had no support for his modernisation measures. I remember standing at the Dispatch Box as shadow Leader of the House and being shoulder to shoulder with him on that issue. I got a right pasting for it. So he did get my support, but it was not always easy.
Sir Oliver Heald
Thank you.
It has been mentioned that the Clerk of the House has an important role as our adviser on the constitution, procedure and business. The role is important not only to us but to those in many other countries who consult our Clerk because he or she is the leading expert on those constitutional matters. As the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) said, we now face big issues relating to the operation of the devolution settlement, human rights and other matters, and we need authoritative advice to be given in a definitive way by someone with the standing of the Clerk of the House. The Clerk of the House is paid at the rate of a Lord Justice of Appeal—not a High Court judge—because he is in a comparable position of authority, or so it has always been thought.
I want to give the House two examples of the kind of advice that I have seen our Clerk give. For my sins, I sat on the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. We had experts, academics and all the top lawyers appearing before the Committee; everybody came to give evidence over a long period. When we read the report, however, we can see that the most authoritative witness was Sir Robert Rogers, the Clerk of the House. People disagreed about that issue, but no one disagreed that it was fantastic to see him giving evidence to us; he could point to the 1671 or the 1678 resolution of the House, for example, and express the matter in question in a simple, straightforward way.
Similarly, when I was serving on the Standards and Privileges Committee, we had to deal with the difficult issues arising from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s report on phone hacking. We had to decide whether there had been contempt of the House, and whether issues of privilege arose from that. It was the Clerk of the House who gave the most convincing and authoritative advice. Someone needs to be able to give such advice. A position of authority is required, and I would not want to see that position diminished.
I do not disagree with the point that we also need modern, efficient business practice here in the House. Sir Kevin Tebbit looked at that matter in 2007 and decided that a chief operating officer—a deputy Clerk with commercial experience from outside this place—was the answer. We need to look at all these questions. Can we split the role? Is there a case for a deputy with commercial experience? For once, I think it should be the House itself that does this. We should not bring in outside experts. We have had the Ibbs, Braithwaite and Tebbit reports; now let us do this ourselves. I support the motion.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
I want to avoid personalities, and I certainly deplore whispering campaigns. I consider this to be an interesting debate and I am glad that it is being held. However, if we had gone through the usual procedures for appointing a new Clerk as a result of a vacancy, it is most unlikely that we would be having this debate today. For some time, I have considered it rather odd that the House itself has had no say whatever in the appointment of the Clerk. This is no reflection at all on the previous Clerk or his predecessors, but none of those appointments was ever brought before, say, the Public Administration Committee. It has always simply been a question of the Speaker of the day announcing that so-and-so has been appointed, and that has been the end of the matter. What we are doing now, in having the matter thoroughly looked into by a Select Committee, is the right approach in every possible way. I have thought on previous occasions that I should express some concern about the way in which appointments were made for the most senior job—the most senior officer—in the House, but I thought, on reflection, that no purpose would be served by doing so. After all, first and foremost, we are here for political purposes.
I find it difficult to understand why the position of the Clerk—as the hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) has just emphasised, we are talking about the No.1 authority on procedural rules and on “Erskine May, and the very person who would give advice to the Speaker and to the House—should be combined with that of chief executive, which is entirely a managerial position. It may well be that some very talented people in this world could combine the two position adequately, but I very much doubt it—again, that is no reflection on previous Clerks.
Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), I do not believe this place has been well managed—to a large extent, the opposite is the case. Indeed, in previous debates on the functioning of the House, I have made sharp criticism of the way in which certain functions and aspects of this place have been managed—or mismanaged, as the case may be. We have to recognise that, as has been said in this debate, there are two separate positions here. It may well be that the Select Committee will not come to that conclusion and will recommend otherwise, but I hope that it will recognise that we have two different and important functions here, those of Clerk of the House and chief executive, and not that of a chief operating officer, as that is a bit of a cop out, to say the least.
We need to recognise that, leaving aside day-to-day management, we are faced with a challenge: the need to rebuild this House of Commons. It is in such a state of decay that it is essential that we accept the challenge, and the work should begin no later than 2020. That challenge, given a recognition that we certainly will not be able to carry out that work while the House is sitting or during the long recess, as the case may be, provides all the more reason for effective managerial authority, which I just cannot recognise as being the work of the Clerk of the House. I therefore hope—
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
I once shocked my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) by telling him that I was a moderniser when Notting Hill was still a dump. So I very much welcome the motion, because I recognise that we need to have change to manage the Houses of Parliament through a difficult time, in terms of both our constitution and the structure of this building.
Now is not the time to go over the past, but I want to say, first, that I commend the people who sat on the panel. As the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said, they gave 20 hours of their time to do the job as best as they could. Where I disagree with her is in my belief that it was not done in the way she implied: as a modern business would have done it. The job description would not have been changed from what had been decided by a board earlier on. We heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) that the description for the Clerk that the panel was recruiting was changed from the decision made by the House of Commons Commission.
I share the House’s concern for Carol Mills, because she went into this application in good faith and it is wrong if her career will be damaged by what is happening at the moment. However, the fact is that consultants were employed, rightly or wrongly, and then, for all sorts of reasons, the panel decided not to listen to them at a specified time. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), that meant that the panel did not know that an inquiry was being undertaken into her behaviour in Australia by the Australian Senate. That would have been relevant. [Interruption.] I do not know why Opposition Members are chuntering, to use the words of Mr Speaker, because that information was in a parliamentary answer from the House of Commons Commission. So I am afraid that Members will have to take that matter up with the commission.
There are questions to be answered. One thing that I hate in this place at times is the way in which we all like to sweep things under the carpet. In due course—not tonight—questions will be asked about why Sir Robert Rogers retired early and about his relationship with Mr Speaker.
Now I wish to move on. I agree with what the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) said. In my experience as a joint managing director in business, a joint managing director rarely works. There needs to be a clear line of command. We have heard already that there is a constitutional role that goes back to 1363 with the Clerk. The activities need to be split, but I firmly agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman and Sir Kevin Tebbit that there should be a chief operating officer reporting to the chief executive, otherwise, as sure as pears are pears, we will be coming back here again for other conflicts; it is inevitable. If we have not been professional in our selection of a replacement Clerk up to now, let us at least be so now and in the future, under the guidance of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) .
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Some years ago the Victoria and Albert museum ran an advertising campaign that said, “An ace café with quite a nice museum attached.” In a sense, Parliament is not the first institution that has a core function, which is to be a legislative body, but also has access to the public. There is nothing new in the problem we face, which is to be not only inward looking but outward looking in reaching out. We just need to face up to that. The requirements for running the ace café and for running the museum are quite different, and we need to acknowledge that, particularly as we have huge restoration functions and greater access to the public. As Members have said, we have not run this House in the best possible way.
The second issue relates to legal advice and the fact that we are a legislative body. As a Member, there have been two occasions in which I have had to draw on legal advice. One was when I was representing this House at the Convention on the Future of Europe in Brussels. To the Foreign Office’s dismay—two Members of this House may remember this—I decided to take Mr Speaker’s legal counsel with me, because I thought that the advice I would receive would be a darn sight more wide-reaching. The second instance was as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee when we held the inquiry into the extremely unfortunate death of Dr David Kelly. Those were events where we needed extremely deep and sensitive legal advice, which was very specific to this House.
First and foremost, we must remember that our function is as legislators. To be effective legislators, we must reach out. To reach out, this place must be run effectively and efficiently. The best thing we can do now is to draw a line under what has happened in the past and to stop sniping at Mr Speaker. If we do not accept his support and acknowledge his authority, this place will not function. The sooner we can move on with the Select Committee and arrive at a decision that allows us to move on in 2015 so this place can function going into the general election, the better.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
My old friend—and he is my old friend—the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) said that he would not dwell on the past, and then proceeded to spend three quarters of his speech doing precisely that. He could usefully have done at the start of his speech what I am going to do at the start of mine, which is to declare not a financial interest but a personal interest. I suspect that if he had done so, it would have been a slightly different one from mine. My personal interest is that Mr Speaker is an old friend of mine. Not surprisingly, that means that I like him quite a lot most of the time. I believe that, as has been said by others in this debate, he has exceeded all expectations in strengthening the power of Back Benchers to hold Ministers to account in this House.
Dr Lewis
I am delighted to put it on the record that my hon. Friend agrees with that.
As a result of all that, I try to help Mr Speaker extricate himself from time to time from the holes that he occasionally digs for himself as a result of his passion for modernisation. For that reason, I ask the House to discount my bias. It is also for that reason that I welcomed the proposals in the motion and happily agreed to sign it at the request of various hon. Friends who have spoken.
As I said in a point of order a few days ago, had anybody asked me about the matter even six weeks ago, or certainly six months ago before this dispute came up, I would have thought that the definition of the Clerk was all the definitions we have heard in the debate except one: chief executive officer. In our minds, the Clerk is rightly associated with being the top procedural officer. That is what I have always regarded him as. Had anyone asked me before the dispute began to describe the functions of the Clerk, I would not have had the faintest idea that he was in a position to overrule everybody else on management matters. That is an anachronistic position.
Therefore, when the Committee is set up, I suggest it asks itself these four questions. First, should a top CEO be expected to be a top procedural adviser too? Secondly, should a top procedural adviser be expected to be a top CEO too? Thirdly, should two such different roles be combined by default in future as they have been in the past? Fourthly, should the top procedural adviser be allowed, if the roles are separated, to overrule the top CEO on management matters, or vice versa on procedural matters? My answers to those questions are clear: no, no, no, no.
The reason for my answers is not only that I have wanted for years to emulate the late, great Margaret Thatcher on the Floor of the House, but that I profoundly disagree, with the greatest respect, with the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). It is not a question of having a single chain of command, because we are not talking about a single management function. We are talking about two separate functions, which means that the people at the top of them should have authority in each.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
I support the proposed Select Committee and its eminent Chair-elect, but I want to be reassured that it is not an effort to undermine an elected and reforming Speaker of the House. Mr Speaker has given us many more opportunities than we had in the past to hold the Government to account.
I should also like to be assured that the Committee will go wider than the appointment of a new Clerk and splitting responsibilities with a new chief executive. Ideally, the Committee would at the very least recommend that the entire management structure of the House be looked at in this modern age. It would also ideally recommend any changes necessary to improve support to elected Members. To my mind, that should include organisation of the management and the Clerks department; recruitment; what opportunities and prospects are on offer; how promotions are decided; and the perks and privileges. Ideally, it would also include how we ensure that staffing and resources are responsive to the needs of Select Committees, so that we can exercise our role more effectively.
On Monday, the head of the TUC, Frances O’Grady, its first woman general secretary, talked about a “Downton Abbey” recovery. To many hon. Members, the House often has an archaic “Upstairs, Downstairs” feel. Perks and privileges for the few abound, but plenty of glass ceilings are apparent from lower down the ladder.
The debate was prompted by the appointment of a new Clerk. One notable aspect of the process was that outside applications were invited from a range of candidates. That seems to have prompted a bitter reaction from some quarters whose interests seem vested in purely preserving the past.
In this day and age, it would seem strange to the outside world if this were all simply to boil down to defending Buggins’s turn. There is no necessary connection, as we have heard, between an encyclopaedic knowledge of “Erskine May” built up over decades and the ability to run a multi-million pound organisation such as Parliament in the 21st century.
As well as the best management and governance, in the modern age the House is urgently crying out for the updating of parliamentary privilege, to which I hope the Select Committee could also give a push. A privileges Bill has long been mooted, but there has been precious little sign of one from the Government or from within the House. Two years ago, for example, the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport produced a damning report naming people who had misled the House over phone hacking and a cover-up at News International. Those conclusions, under our old procedures, now lie parked with the Standards and Privileges Committees for further action. When we came to draft the report and pressed for clarity about privilege and the sanctions available, vagueness was the guidance of the day for fear of exposing the fact that the emperor, namely Parliament, had no clothes—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think we need to get back on to the subject in hand.
Paul Farrelly
Mr Deputy Speaker, I am coming back to the issue of the management and governance of the House, but I wanted to speak frankly about how that difficult report involved trial and tribulation in how Committees were supported by the management of the House.
I want to conclude with a few words about one disturbing aspect of the appointment process, namely that attacks on Mr Speaker, the appointment panel and one of the outside candidates, Carol Mills from Australia, began before the appointment was made on 30 July. They began 10 days before, during the interviews, when leaked attacks from unnamed sources appeared in one Sunday tabloid, and they have carried on since. I will not dignify the organ my naming it, but it was hardly the first time it has attacked Mr Speaker, nor will it be the last. I have particular sympathy in that regard because two years ago I was on the end of such leaks, and not from elected Members, to the same newspaper.
What has happened this summer has been a disgrace, with the same newspaper, the same reporters, a similar modus operandi and similar sources, it seems to me. As we consider the motion, I want to be assured that such bad behaviour will not be tolerated or rewarded in the future.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the motion and I welcome Mr Speaker’s announcement of the pause. I wrote to the Leader of the House in August because in my role as Chairman of the Liaison Committee I felt that members of the Committee would think that the House needed further discussion and to be able to exercise some influence over how the issue was resolved. An appropriate way of resolving it has been found.
As Chairs of Select Committees, members of the Liaison Committee have a lot of experience of Clerks at work. Indeed, I ought to point out in the light of some of the comments made that the idea that Clerks do not do management is seriously misleading. In the course of our daily work most of us see senior Clerks exercising management functions. They have of course been encouraged to do so and, in many cases, trained to do so as that is now a significant part of the role of Clerks.
I was on the House of Commons Commission when previous reports considered the issue of separating the roles of Clerk and chief executive and there are quite powerful arguments for doing so. I am sympathetic to a move in that direction, personally, but it is essential that the authority of the Clerk of the House must not be undermined. Some fairly obvious points follow on from that. For example, the nature of the appointment as a Crown appointment and the fact that the appointment can only be terminated on an address should remain the property of the post of Clerk of the House, not of any chief executive. There are some serious issues, which have been aired today, about where accountability lies and I would be worried by the thought that a chief executive could countermand the Clerk in a matter that affected the ability of Committees to carry out their functions, for instance. We must be careful and I repose confidence in the ability of the Committee that we are appointing to consider those issues very carefully.
The question of authority is important. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) mentioned the Committee he so carefully chaired on the involvement of the police in a search within the House. It was clear within those proceedings—I was also a member—that the loss of authority by the Serjeant at Arms contributed significantly to what went wrong. Whatever decision was made about where the responsibility should lie, the responsibility of speaking to the police should have had with it the authority that previously reposed with the Serjeant at Arms. We must be very careful that the authority that reposes in the Clerk of the House and is then, by extension, exercised by Clerks throughout our system is not undermined.
That leads me to another point, which I made in an intervention earlier but want to reiterate, about the arrangements that we have in the meantime. Let us bear in mind that that period could be a time of some very significant events, such as arguments about who should be voting on which Bills. We need to be sure that the person acting in the role of Clerk of the House from the position of Clerk Assistant has the authority necessary to serve the House in the way that the Clerk of the House would. He must also have the capacity and authority to delegate, sufficient to the functions of Clerk Assistant, and the time necessary to do the important job that he will be called on to do during this interim period.
The Committee may need more time, in which case it will have to come back to the House and ask for it, but the time scale is set by the fact that we are approaching a general election. I wish it well in its work.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
It is with some diffidence that I follow the greatest luminaries in the House who have spoken in this debate. It must be a rare debate that has had quite so many former Leaders of the House speak in it, and it is of fundamental importance.
It is worth looking at how this situation has evolved. In giving up his prerogative to appoint the Clerk, the Speaker made an important modernising and opening-up move, and that is to be commended. The setting up of a panel was a good way of opening up the process, even if I do not like the conclusion that it reached. Once it all came out, there was then, in this more open process, naturally a greater interest from the House in how it had all happened and whether it had happened in the best possible way. The Speaker has therefore been wise to agree to, and even to suggest, a pause in the process so that it may be thoroughly considered and a Clerk appointed who has the confidence of every Member of the House.
We have heard a very important debate on whether the role should be divided—on whether a Clerk can, by his nature, be good at running a big organisation, or a chief executive from outside can be a good Clerk. Underlying all that, there is this fundamental point: whatever other qualities the Clerk has, they must have the complete confidence of the House when advising individual Members and the Speaker on what the procedure is.
The great thing about an unwritten constitution is that, to an extent, we make it up as we go along. In this country, there are not really any constitutional experts; there are just people who insist that they know more about the constitution than the next person they talk to. There is an enormous amount of bluffing when people tell us what our constitution is. The more authoritatively people say they know what it is, the more they get away with it. [Laughter.] I know that, because it is a bluff that I am not ashamed to use myself from time to time. That is very important in a Clerk, and having a Clerk of 40 years’ experience may well be essential—they could well be an Australian Clerk, as the Australian Parliament follows some very similar procedures to ours, so there is no objection in principle to an Australian—because when a point of order is raised and the Speaker is quickly whispered advice by the Clerk, or one of the assistant Clerks, the whole House must then accept that ruling as authoritative. Otherwise we would have endless points of order questioning the authority of the Chair and the advice being given to the Speaker by the Clerk sitting in the row in front of him. That would lead to complete disorder. The procedures of the House cannot operate properly without confidence, and that requires the experience that allows the bluff to be realistic.
Then there is the question of seniority. Sometimes the requirements of democracy, and particularly the rights of the minority, need inefficiency within our systems. If we have a purely efficient system, the Government get all their legislation through, as they feel like it, with very little debate and rapid progress through the House. The inefficiencies ensure that the Opposition have their say—and those of us on the Government Benches must always remember that we will not remain there for ever. We therefore need the Clerk as the most senior figure and the one who can bluff the best.
Jesse Norman
It falls to me in the very few seconds that remain to thank all Members across this House for their extraordinarily wise and thoughtful contributions. I am grateful to the Government and Opposition Front Benchers for supporting the motion. Mr Speaker called, rightly and wisely, for good will and consensus; we have seen those things tonight and for that we should all be profoundly grateful.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House welcomes the Speaker’s announcement on 1 September of a pause in the process of appointment of a new Clerk of the House and Chief Executive, to give time for further consideration; and accordingly determines that:
(a) there shall be a select committee, called the House of Commons Governance Committee, to consider the governance of the House of Commons, including the future allocation of the responsibilities for House services currently exercised by the Clerk of the House and Chief Executive;
(b) the Committee report to the House by 12 January 2015;
(c) the Committee shall have the powers given to select committees related to government departments under paragraph 4(a) and 4(b) of Standing Order No. 152;
(d) Mr Jack Straw be the Chair of the Committee;
(e) the Committee shall consist of seven other backbench members, to be elected by parties in the proportion of three Conservative, two Labour and one Liberal Democrat, together with one representative of the other parties represented in the House; the parties shall forward their nominations to the Chair of the Committee of Selection by 14 October and any motion made in the House on behalf of the Committee of Selection by the Chair or another member of the Committee shall be treated as having been made in pursuance of Standing Order No. 121(2) for the purposes of Standing Order No. 15(1)(c).
Petitions
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The first petition I want to present concerns a major improvement to the A45 in my constituency and the Chowns Mill roundabout. The petition is a result of the efforts of Dudley Hughes, who suggested the idea of a listening campaign, which was very ably led by Tom Pursglove, who is the Conservative parliamentary candidate for Corby.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Rushden and East Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas,
Sheweth,
That the Petitioners believe that the heavy traffic congestion on the A45 between Stanwick and the A14 at the Chowns Mill Roundabout is unacceptable because there are numerous accidents which result in serious injury and loss of life and further that the Petitioners believe that the main A road delays between the M1 and the A14 cause economic damage to the local and regional economy.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Department for Transport to encourage Northamptonshire County Council and East Northamptonshire District Council to work together to ensure, as a matter of urgency, that the A45 is dualled between Stanwick and the A14 and that significant improvements are made to the Chowns Mill Roundabout including grade separation.
And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001386]
Mr Bone
I am grateful to have been given the opportunity to present another petition. I am afraid that this petition is so heavy that I am unable physically to present it myself. It has been signed by 10,119 petitioners and represents a very controversial matter in my constituency. I am very pleased to say that both parties on the borough council of Wellingborough have decided to re-engage with the issue and look at it again.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas,
Sheweth,
That the Petitioners believe that the proposed closure of Glamis Hall in Wellingborough is unacceptable because there are no other day care facilities for the elderly in Wellingborough; further that the Petitioners believe that for many of the 180 elderly people who attend the day centre it is their only opportunity to socialise, and provides an excellent service, including transport to/from the centre, bathing, podiatry and hair dressing services; and further that the Petitioners believe that it provides a social atmosphere for some of our most vulnerable people, as well as providing recreation bookings and sports changing rooms in the evenings and weekends.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Department for Communities and Local Government to encourage Northamptonshire County Council and the Borough Council of Wellingborough to work together to ensure Glamis Hall is kept open until the end of November 2015, while working with the community in the interim period to find a permanent solution which is satisfactory to all.
And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001385]
Regeneration (South-east Wakefield)
(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to see the Minister in her place. It is a great privilege to be allowed to lead this short debate on the regeneration of south-east Wakefield.
I suppose that everybody who has been a Member of this House and represented a constituency would say, genuinely, how proud they were to represent the area for which they were elected. I feel enormous pride as the representative of about 23 villages in south-east Wakefield, most of which to some extent had a strong link to the coal mining industry in the past.
The industry bred a particular kind of person, and I want to describe some of the attributes of the people I represent. They are tough-minded, extremely independent and resourceful, as well as overwhelmingly honest and straightforward individuals. Because the mining industry was so dangerous, they learned how to care for each other. After all, down the mine your life might depend on a neighbour, and his might depend on you. Strong and caring communities therefore emerged and quite often, both below and above ground, when times got tough, people stuck together. Frequently, it was the women who were the strong and tough characters who bound so many of our communities together.
I want to emphasise one thing above all, which is my constituents’ passionate commitment to hard work. How could it be otherwise? These people went down the pits into the dark in the most dangerous conditions, and they helped to create the wealth that made our country such a rich and powerful nation. Mining is part of our heritage. I am pleased to say that the first deep mine in a generation is about to be sunk in my constituency, but to be honest, we have on the whole moved on from the coal mining industry. Yet the qualities that I have described have not gone away. They are still there to be seen every day in all the villages I represent.
When I think about the regeneration of our communities, so much of which has taken place in the past few years, I think about Fitzwilliam or Frickley, where the coal mines were left derelict when the mining industry simply closed down overnight. Hundreds of acres of land were, in effect, abandoned by the National Coal Board. The land was polluted, and left with dangerous coal pit formations. In those two areas, it was primarily but not exclusively the women who said, “We’re not going to have this sort of despoliation of our community for generations to come.” They came together and, with the support of many other agencies, created two wonderful country parks on those two pitheads. At another, South Kirby pit, local entrepreneurs and business people are now creating new industries and businesses, and the same is taking place at Dale lane in Upton.
When I think about regeneration and community spirit, I think of the library in my home village of Ackworth. The council had to withdraw from it because of a lack of funding, but members of the community said, “No, we’re not seeing the library close.” With the help of the parish council, we now have an active community library. I also think of the Westfield lane centre, which is a true community hub. It provides cheap food for people who are finding it difficult to pay their way, and there is a food bank and training for people who need skills.
When I think about communities and regeneration, I think about the brass bands, the male voice choirs, the rugby league clubs—I know that is a subject close to your heart, Mr Deputy Speaker—the pensioners’ Christmas dos and the sports facilities. Those community facilities are found in every village and almost around every corner. They were created by miners, who paid 6p at the end of each week from their pay packet to sustain them. When the mines closed so precipitately, all those sixpences—there were thousands of men working down the pits—were gone, but somehow or other, the communities managed to hold on to the facilities and they continue to this day.
I think, too, about the food banks that are beginning to re-emerge because things are getting tough again. In some cases, they are being led by the same women who ran the soup kitchens at the time of the strikes. I think of the successful business people who used to be miners, who will dig into their pockets, often unasked, when there is a community problem. One business man who used to be miner came to me one day when he heard that a local woman had lost two children in a tragedy and could not afford to bury them. He asked how he could help to pay for their burial, because he understood that the woman did not have the money that he did. He wanted to do so anonymously. All those things make up the rich communities that I represent. Obviously, each of us knows the communities that we represent best.
There are other forms of regeneration going on, particularly through house building. Large housing estates are being built in South Elmsall and Featherstone. I welcome that because it will bring fresh blood, money and jobs into those villages, which are desperately needed. However, I do not think that housing on its own is sufficient to regenerate the communities that I represent.
We have done much to regenerate our communities locally, which shows how resilient those communities are. Above all, what I want to say about Yorkshire mining communities is that they do not want to live on handouts from the state, but they do occasionally need a helping hand up. When I was first elected in 1996, I went to the local secondary schools in Minsthorpe and Hemsworth and asked the children how many of them would go to university. Barely one person in those two huge schools said that they would go to university. However, through the excellence of the teachers and the support of the parents and the wider community, a process of helping those young people to reach their potential was gradually arrived at.
I went back in 2010 at the end of the Labour Government and asked the new generation of children how many of them would go to university. Almost all of them put their hands up and said, “We hope that we can.” That happened because of a helping hand. They were not living off the state and were not dependent on anybody, but had somebody standing alongside them—teachers and schools, with some Government and council money—helping them to achieve what they wanted to achieve.
I want to refer to a couple of matters that trouble me because, from time to time, we need the state, an institution or an agency to stand alongside us and give us a helping hand. The first relates to the green belt. I represent 23 villages. I have described their similarities, their history and their economics, but the rivalry between them can be quite intense, as Members might imagine. Frequently, the gap between one village and the next is just one or two fields. There is a danger that ribbon development will creep into one field and then into the next and, before we know it, two ancient communities, with their own histories and cultures, and perhaps their own antagonisms, will be merged into one.
I know that the Minister cannot speak about particular planning applications, but there is an application at the moment for green belt between Fitzwilliam and Havercroft. I am worried that it will begin to bridge the divide between those two communities. I ask the Minister to reflect—perhaps not now, but in a subsequent letter—on whether the powers that the Government have given the council to protect the green belt are strong enough to ensure that our communities remain independent.
I want to reflect on where we have got to. As I have said, we sometimes need agencies, institutions and the Government alongside us to help. One of those institutions was the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, which, over the past 15 years or so, has been working side by side with coalfield communities throughout the country, helping us to regenerate our areas. Now it is being brought to an end. That is premature, because the job that it was asked to do has not been completed. Two fifths of neighbourhoods that make up the most deprived communities in the country are in coalfield areas, so the work of regeneration has not been achieved.
As Members would expect of an area such as mine, which is solidly in the middle of the Yorkshire coalfield, there are ongoing problems in spite of the CRT’s work. One in five of all children in my constituency live in poverty, and equally disturbing is the fact that a male child born today in the most deprived area of my constituency is expected to live 10 and a half years less than a child born in the least deprived area.
The job is not done, and let us be honest, as much as we can do locally, national issues are causing us to have continuing problems, because we are a grossly unequal country. That problem of inequality goes to the heart of the problems facing the communities that I represent. The problem is not that there are not enough jobs but that the jobs are generally agency, part-time or temporary work or full self-employment, with low pay.
There are shocking regional disparities in pay. I do not have time to go through all the details, but wages and salaries in my constituency in Yorkshire have declined substantially—by more than £2,000 a year per person since 2008—and the decline continues. It is extraordinary to compare the average salary in my constituency with that in the Prime Minister’s constituency. We discover that average pay is £100 a week more in Witney than in Hemsworth, or £5,000 a year for each working man and woman. If the same pay were provided in Hemsworth and Witney, an additional half a billion pounds a year in salaries and income would come to Hemsworth. As Members can imagine, that would be sufficient to complete the process of regeneration. The problem of inequality needs to be tackled.
I believe that there is also a moral debt to mining communities—it is a kind of social compact. We asked men to go underground and help to create the wealth of our country, then we closed the mines in the most brutal manner imaginable. It is not sufficient for us simply to walk away from those communities with the job only half done, yet the Government give all the impression in the world of walking away, uninterested. There have been cuts to the CRT; our local council has lost £185 million; 180 local NHS staff have gone; the bedroom tax affects 1,500 people in the area, and so on. The job is not finished.
The Minister might say that there are fiscal problems, but the Prime Minister, before he was elected, said, “We will not cut front-line services. We will only cut waste.” I am a hard-bitten Yorkshireman—I do not like spending money, and I hate the idea of waste. I agree with cutting waste, but that is not what is happening in my constituency. Agencies that should be standing alongside communities are being made to walk away because money is no longer available to them.
We know what has happened from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the man who sits next to the Chancellor. He has said that the Tories are
“ideologically wedded to continuous cuts as the route to a smaller state.”
There we have it—an ideological commitment to a smaller state.
I do not want a large state for the sake of it, and I certainly do not want a Government who act like Big Brother. I want a Government who are active and who stand alongside individuals and communities and help them to achieve their aspirations. This Government have broken the social compact. We should recognise that ties of obligation bind us together, and it is a basic, British, moral and ethical value to suggest that if someone, some group, or one community or another, falls behind through no fault of their own, the rest of us should turn round and help. The Government give the impression of having neglected that social compact and idea of not letting people fall behind, and that basic British value.
It is not too late for the Government to change course, and I appeal to the Minister to go away and look at what is happening in the coalfield communities—perhaps not this evening—especially in my area but also more widely, and see what else might be done. If the Government continue to be as hard-faced as the impression they give, they will be swept aside by a Government who will express more clearly the true values of the British people in the general election next year.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) on securing this important debate on the regeneration of south-east Wakefield. The Government recognise the historic challenges facing his local economy, as outlined in this debate, and are investing in Wakefield. The Coalfields Regeneration Trust has made 191 individual grant awards in the south-east Wakefield area, amounting to more than £3.9 million. Overall Government investment in coalfield areas since 1999 has amounted to nearly £900 million. The Homes and Communities Agency has spent nearly £7.8 million to date on bringing land back into use at the former Frickley colliery and in south-east Wakefield. We are investing nearly £2 billion to unlock major housing sites, including on brownfield land, and £150 million to kick-start the regeneration of large housing estates.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the green belt, and although I cannot comment on the individual case, I shall write to him about the others issues he touched on. I am pleased that a couple of areas in his constituency have put in place neighbourhood plans—that is on his point about villages at war—and I encourage other areas in his constituency to take them up. In order to assist local communities that may not have much capacity to do that, the Government are looking at putting together some materials, templates and additional support. I recognise that this is tough stuff, particularly for the smaller communities that he describes, and we want to ensure that they have the tools to get on with that.
The hon. Gentleman spoke eloquently about the pride and resilience in his community, and about its close community bond and grit. Although my constituency of Portsmouth does not have many miners, I certainly recognise the characters he describes. He is right that regeneration and the sorts of activities that ensure quality of life for all in our constituencies are down to local people going that extra mile, putting themselves out, and coming up with ideas based on what will work at a local level.
I could enter into an ideological argument for the hon. Gentleman tonight but I will not do that. I am interested in what practical support I can supply to people in his constituency, and he touched eloquently on a number of issues that my brief could assist with. For example, high streets are as much about regenerating local economies as about providing support and services to vulnerable people in our communities, as well as a social hub and community contact. That is why we value and are investing in them. We are also giving particular encouragement and weight to representation from social enterprise and the third sector in local enterprise partnerships across the country. They will be a key part of the heavy lifting that the hon. Gentleman described, and we are encouraging local enterprise partnerships to ensure that the sector is well represented on its boards.
Wakefield council has made economic growth and fostering partnerships of the sort I described a priority. This has secured a number of flagship projects, including the Merchant Gate and Trinity Walk developments, and supported the development of the highly successful Hepworth gallery, which is bringing people to Wakefield from across the country and further afield. As a result, Wakefield centre is being transformed. An example of the council’s approach to regeneration is the 25-year, £750 million private finance initiative partnership with the Shanks Group plc for a new waste management facility. This secured up to £30.4 million in investment from the Green Investment Bank and a group of leading international banks. The development is expected to be completed next year and will create 250 construction jobs and 60 permanent jobs. Overall, the facilities will process 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste per annum, helping to increase the council’s recycling rate to at least 52%.
Wakefield is also host to many world-class businesses, and major investments are being made—for example, by Coca-Cola. In June, the company announced £13 million of investment in new technology at its Wakefield plant. Coca-Cola is also working closely with local businesses in the community. For example, its site director, Ian Johnson, participated in Wakefield business week this summer. Moreover, of course, it is not just investment by household names that is making a big difference to Wakefield and its people. Mark Ridgway, managing director of Group Rhodes, is showing many of us the way on exports. A Queen’s award winner and one of Europe’s finest manufacturers of special purpose machinery, Group Rhodes continues to expand and create jobs through its partnerships worldwide.
Beaumont Legal, one of the fastest-growing law practices in the UK, recently cemented its position as Yorkshire’s largest residential conveyancer by opening a second office in Wakefield. Another excellent example of investor confidence in Wakefield is the investment by Xamax, a branded clothing and sportswear specialist. With support from the regional growth fund, through the locally managed business growth programme, it is developing a new production and showroom facility. Graham Thompson, the managing director, is driving forward the growth of his company and sees an exciting future, including creating more jobs and further building on the portfolio of products offered.
Wakefield council was also awarded £8.1 million from round 1 of the regional growth fund to regenerate four housing sites. This project will bring new homes to the communities of south Wakefield, offering choice to local residents and making the communities vibrant places to live in. The scheme is on track to create 425 new construction jobs, having delivered 100 jobs to date. The projects are progressing well, and two of the four sites have started building already, with the take-up of new housing higher than anticipated.
In the second round of the regional growth fund, £1.4 million was awarded to build a roundabout close to Ferrybridge power station. The roundabout, now completed, has enabled the construction of a new multi-fuel plant being developed by a joint venture between SSE and Wheelabrator Technologies Inc. The multi-fuel plant will create 50 operational jobs and about 300 construction jobs during the first three years of its build. I congratulate these companies and business men and the local Wakefield First economic partnership on working together to maximise development opportunities for local people. I understand that about 30 local companies are now involved in the supply chain, and more opportunities will come from phase two of the plant, which is now in development.
There are also the Wakefield business support teams, which are on the ground working with companies and communities to help to create jobs and get local people into them. Based in south-east Wakefield, the delivery partners are using just short of £2 million of European and local council resource to help businesses to start and grow, including through exporting.
The Leeds city region growth deal includes £62.2 million from the local growth fund confirmed for 2015-16 and £233.3 million for the following year to 2021, and £277.4 million of the total includes previously committed funding by my colleagues in the Department for Transport for devolved local majors and other large schemes, with funding beyond 2015-16. The award includes £180 million from the local growth fund for the West Yorkshire Plus transport fund and an additional £30 million per annum through to 2034-35. With local contributions, the West Yorkshire Plus transport fund will bring £1 billion to the improvement of inter-city and intra-city connectivity and could include enhancements to rail and rapid transit and more effective highways and bus networks. Other programmes and projects that will be funded from the local growth fund include housing schemes and other developments in the Leeds city region, including Wakefield. As Roger Marsh, chair of the Leeds city region LEP, said:
“This is a game-changing moment for the Leeds City Region.”
Those involved have worked closely with businesses and partners to showcase the region’s immense potential to play a leading role in balancing the UK economy.
We are committed to giving local areas such as south-east Wakefield both the funding and the freedom they need to maintain their leading position in the UK economy. I am a new Minister and I look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman to ensure that we are doing that work as effectively as possible. I thank him for securing this debate, which has been helpful and has afforded me the opportunity to mention some of the people he describes in his constituency who are delivering for their communities. I thank him for raising this matter with me. I shall write to him on the green-belt issue, and if there are any other asks that he or his constituents have of this Government or if there is any more that we can do, I would be very happy to discuss those matters with him.
Question put and agreed to.
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Westminster Hall
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Western Balkans
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)
It is a delight, Mrs Brooke, to see you in the Chair today. Coming back to Committee Room 10 reminds me of a few years ago, when I raised this same subject in a Westminster Hall debate. At that time, we were also in this room. The then Minister for Europe was one Geoff Hoon. Some of the themes have moved on since then, but I will return to others. It is also a delight to see the Minister. I know that this subject is not his area of expertise—the Minister for Europe is busy elsewhere—but as we are former colleagues at the Whips Office, he will remember my discussions on various subjects, which included the region we are talking about.
Almost exactly 40 years ago, I started at London university studying Serbo-Croat language and literature, and so started my knowledge of and relationship with the region. Today reminds me a little of my student days, because, due to a whole load of work that has come in my constituency in the past couple of days, I have not prepared my essay properly. As so often in the past, I will try to wing it by bluffing my way through. After 40 years, I think I have a reasonable amount of knowledge, but I have no set speech. I would have loved to have given the Minister an advance copy, but no such copy exists. Anyway—here we go.
The current fashion is for people to have a bucket list of things they want to do. For me, it is a list of things I want to get off my chest before I stand down from Parliament at the next general election. The western Balkans is an area that I feel strongly about, because it is of great interest and great importance to the European situation. As we know, it was, sadly, one of the biggest problems in Europe during the latter half of the 20th century.
History in the Balkan area is very important. Here we are, 100 years after the start of the first world war—and we know that the trigger for that was the assassination in Sarajevo of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip. Interestingly, even now that history has an impact; a lot of people are almost trying to rewrite history or analyse it. The Serbs feel that there is almost an attempt to rewrite it as a Serbian movement when, in fact, Gavrilo Princip was a member of the Young Bosnia, or Mlada Bosna, movement. Members of his team—it was not a very experienced team—included a Bosnian Muslim and others, so it was not just a Serbian thing.
We have to be careful when we remember such events. In fact, there are echoes today, because all through what was then the Austro-Hungarian empire were groups of young people—mostly men and often students—who were dissatisfied and frustrated with the system. They resorted to violence, and we can see where else that is happening in the world.
Next year marks an important year in Serbian history. I will not confine my comments to Serbia; I am just starting off with it. In 1915, the Serbian nation retreated. It did quite well initially against the forces of the Austro-Hungarian empire, but it was beaten back. Bulgaria joined the war and there was a pincer movement, so the Serbs had to retreat. They did not want to be occupied, so the Serbian army, the Serbian Parliament, the Serbian King and the church—they even dug up some of their saints—moved in the middle of winter across the Albanian mountains and went on eventually, with massive sacrifice and massive numbers of deaths, to Corfu. There the British and French reclothed them and so forth and helped get them back to the Salonika front, where they fought their way up.
That was an important moment in Serbian history. It is interesting, in the context of the Balkans, that the Albanians allowed the Serbian army to come through and said that it must be unhindered. Although we sometimes hear of the rivalries today—I say “rivalries”, but they obviously go past that in some respects—these things are not always as deep-seated as people think.
I have a particular interest in this issue and, as Members will know, I am a natural retailer, so I should mention that I am helping with a play. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is also helping with it. The play, which will tour in the UK and Serbia, is about a British nurse called Flora Sandes, who went out as a nurse and ended up serving in the Serbian army. She was the only British woman who served on the front line as a woman, although there might have been some who disguised themselves.
The play will be about Flora, but also about a Serbian woman called Milunka Savic, and there will be a comparison between the two. Milunka is fascinating, because she was one of the top throwers of grenades. I do not know whether she would be called a grenadier or a bomber. The reason for her skill was that she was a shepherd. She was so used to throwing stones to frighten away wolves and things, she could pinpoint grenades with remarkable accuracy. She was one of the top marksmen with grenades.
The play is coming up, and one reason why I mention it is that it is important to realise the historical link between our nation and the Serbs in that period. We were great allies, and that has continued, except for the latter half of the 20th century and the particular period when we had the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Despite that recent history, the Serbian national view is that they want to renew that alliance with Britain, and that is something we can do in encouraging their EU aspirations.
Another point on the Salonika front is that I recently went to an exhibition at the School of Oriental and African Studies, which was just next to my old college, the School of Slavonic and East European Studies. There was an exhibition on Sikhs in the Indian army in the first world war and the large number of Muslims who fought for the British—it was the British Indian army—on the Salonika front. Many of them lost their lives. We should highlight that the divides between nations and religions and everything else are not clear-cut. Sometimes, things are polarised in today’s world.
Obviously, the history of close co-operation carried on into the second world war. History must always be in our minds in the Balkan region. I am delighted to see two hon. Members from Northern Ireland here. That region is another example of where we should never forget history, but that does not mean we have to be a slave to it. Northern Ireland is a good example of how we can move on. Some of these regions with divides in their communities can learn from the example of Northern Ireland, and that is why I am particularly delighted to see the two hon. Members.
The history is deeply rooted and for the Serbs it goes back a long way—to the mediaeval period. We all know about Kosovo and all that. There is a sense of being a victim, which was further accentuated in the last part of the 20th century. We must also be aware of some of the terrible things that occurred in Europe in the latter half of the 20th century. Srebrenica, for example, is probably the most obvious and highlighted of the appalling things that happened. I do not think that I will have time during the remainder of my parliamentary career to visit the area, but I hope to be able to, because one has to understand exactly what went on.
Other things went on, however, and one side was certainly not responsible for them all. There are no definite goodies and baddies in such situations; there are lots of both. I recently discovered that the Special Investigative Task Force under lead prosecutor John Clint Williamson has been examining the claims of atrocities—I should perhaps say “alleged atrocities”, but I think we have got past that and that he said that there were atrocities—committed in Kosovo by alleged members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. That has gone a long way to helping people in the region realise that it is not only the victors who say that everything was done against them and that investigations will happen for all concerned.
The problem for so much of central and south-eastern Europe—we are seeing it even further east in Ukraine—lies with realising that the countries are not homogeneous. The peoples who live in those countries are from a wide range of ethnic groupings. One village might speak Serbian while the next might speak Slovak. That is what makes the whole thing so complicated and is a common theme when minorities and their rights are being sorted out.
I want to move briefly on to the use of depleted uranium during bombing and the related health consequences, which are always somewhere at the back of Serb minds, and not only theirs. I do not think the issue has been properly investigated. In 1999, there was a report by someone called Bakary Kante from the UN Environment Programme, but I am not sure whether it has been properly published. We must get such things out into the open.
I am no expert on the south-west of England, but I believe that the recent severe flooding did not greatly affect the East Devon constituency of the Minister—I imagine that it was not very good, but it probably was not appalling. However, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular have experienced extreme flooding. We only heard a little about it, but I was delighted that Britain, as part of a European-wide aid programme, did an awful lot to help. We are possibly victims of not blowing our trumpet and of not letting the Serbs and Bosnians understand how much we sympathise and how much practical help we gave.
There have been many instances throughout the country of individuals and organisations—not national Governments and not even necessarily non-governmental organisations—helping mutually and I found an interesting case the other day. If the Minister for Europe had been here, he would have been particularly interested, because it revolves around his old school. I have discovered that Northwood prep, among other projects around the world including Africa and India through something called the Francis Terry Foundation, has been helping to build kindergartens and play areas in a couple of villages—I think they are villages, but one must be careful—in the Nish area called Toponica and Matejevac. The facilities are allowing people who may otherwise have had to move to the cities, which is a problem in such areas, to have their kids looked after at home. The school has also been visited by the Crown Prince of Serbia and, I think, will be making a trip to a concert in Serbia. That is just one example. An advantage of the internet is that we can link schools and organisations much more easily when compared with the old town-twinning process, which was clunky and involved people going over there and all the related expenses. It is a great way to learn about other peoples.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The right hon. Gentleman said that he was bluffing his way through his speech, so I commend him, based on the past 15 minutes, on perfecting the art. Does he agree that many UK faith organisations also get involved with offers of help and assistance to the Balkans, particularly through the internet? Given the extent of the deprivation, particularly among young children in some areas, considerable help is being offered, and that should be promoted.
Sir John Randall
I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. In fact, some years ago—as I became lost into the Whips Office, some of the dates have passed me by and have been put to one side, like all the memories I have of who did what to whom and when—I remember being closely involved with a faith organisation that was working in several areas of the Balkans. It still does tremendous work, because there is still incredible deprivation among some Roma populations and in some rural areas.
Since being released from the Whips Office, human trafficking and modern slavery have been of great interest to me. In that context, I visited Albania, which was the only country in the region that I had not visited. When I was a student, I would not have been allowed to go to Albania, because I had a beard and in the days of Enver Hoxha that might have made one appear to be an orthodox priest or something, although I am not sure that I resembled such a priest in any other way. However, I was encouraged, because I suppose that I listened over the years to a lot of the propaganda about what was going on in Albania. It is a poor country, but it is making efforts. However, modern slavery and human trafficking must really be considered across the whole region. I say to all those countries that aspire to join the EU, which may be some way off, that that is something on which they can really show leadership by trying to sort it out. Albania is doing what it can, but they all have a long way to go.
Kosovo is obviously probably the thorniest problem in the area, and some countries within the EU still have not recognised an independent Kosovo. The Serbs and the Kosovans have some form of agreement. It will never be far away from becoming a problem, but Baroness Ashton brought people together in a positive move, which should be encouraged. I do not expect an answer today, as this is not the Minister’s area of responsibility, but he could perhaps look into a question for me. When I last visited Kosovo a few years ago, people were still living in containers in some of the enclaves after being displaced from their homes. I am not sure whether that is the current situation, but I was appalled at the time that people in Europe should still be living like that after many years. Perhaps he could look into the matter. Also, some sacred monuments were still having to be guarded by NATO troops, because, even though they are centuries old, they were seen as indicating that Serbian culture had been on that territory, so I would welcome a note at some stage from his colleagues at the Foreign Office on the current situation.
Macedonia, as I am sure people realise, suffers not only from similar problems, but from a problem that I find incredible in today’s world: an EU country is resisting things because it does not think that Macedonia should use the name “Macedonia”. Now that I have raised that in Parliament, I will get e-mails and hate letters from Greek nationalists, as I did the last time that I mentioned it. I remember that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited Macedonia when he was an Opposition shadow Minister. When he came back, he wrote an article in The Guardian—one of his favoured organs, I am sure—asking how people in Greece would like to referred to as living in the “former Ottoman province of Greece”.
That such objections go on these days is incredible, but I am aware of the sensitivities. Greece thinks that Macedonia, by having that name, has its sights on territory further down in Thrace and so forth. If we cannot sort out an agreement on a name in the EU, however, our chance of sorting out some of the finer points is a little worrying. Macedonia still has huge problems, not only between the Macedonians and the Macedonian Albanians, but with a large number of other peoples there.
Montenegro I used to know well. Members may know it still, because it has a beautiful coastline, although it is not all coastline; a lot of it is harsh karst scenery and a tough place to live. Montenegro got its independence, but has a huge problem with law and order. It also has a huge problem with smuggling and has a large amount of Russian investment, although perhaps the Russians are moving that to the Crimea at the moment, who knows, because Montenegro has EU aspirations and will be trying to untie slightly the close links that most of the Slavic countries in the area have with Russia. We need to help, because what is going on in Montenegro is a bit of a blot on the whole process.
Serbia I have spoken about, but I will return to it briefly, because I feel that it is moving forward. A lot is still to be done and the British and the EU can encourage the Serbs. We in the UK have a role to play, because of the traditional alliance that we had with them. The more that we can say that is where we are coming from, the better. I am not always simply being charitable; there is a huge opportunity for British trade in the area. Unfortunately, some of the practices in some of those countries do not encourage British trade. In fact, those who are in the diaspora tend to be the pioneers in the area. I commend an organisation, which I know quite well: the Serbian City Club. Young professionals in the UK of Serbian origin are doing an awful lot to encourage people.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. As he says, there is an opportunity in the area for business and investment. My understanding is that the Germans have invested fairly heavily in the agri-foods sector. What more can we do to encourage British businesses to invest there, and what conditions do we need to make it feasible for them to do so?
Sir John Randall
That is a good question. We have to think of ways to give confidence to UK businesses. There have been examples of rather strange practices, such as someone who has signed up an agreement, only to find that the mayor of the local town has changed and that that is no longer the case—company law is not well recognised. Northern Ireland could have huge agricultural possibilities in the Balkans. One of the things that I was looking at with someone, which is still possible, was the organic market and for us to import organic. Given the nature of the situation in those countries over the years, they did not get around to putting all the fertilisers and other things down, so there is huge potential. There are other needs—for example, Serbia would have to get goods through Montenegro on to the coast overland—and such matters would need to be sorted out, because a lot of food, especially fresh food, has to be got out quickly.
Bosnia and Herzegovina is not an area I know well now, although I used to know it well. That is one of the tragedies for me. When I was a student going around Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina seemed to me to be the place where everyone got along together. There was rivalry between Serbia and Croatia, and I could feel the tension in Kosovo between the native Kosovan Albanians and the Serbs living there, but in Bosnia, in spite of the presence of all the different mixes, everyone seemed to get along. The complete and utter tragedy of what happened indicates that we are never far away from disaster—we should never take things for granted. From what I understand, Bosnia still has a long way to go. As someone astutely observed to me, Dayton was a good peace agreement and ceasefire, but it is not a settlement for the country. That is a huge problem, but one we have to deal with.
I have certainly taken up enough time. I can see the relief coming in from Ulster in the Chamber, as always—
Sir John Randall
We will talk about that later. [Laughter.] I am demonstrating the strength of the Union.
As I might not have the opportunity to raise the subject of the western Balkans again, certainly given the length of time I have left in my parliamentary career, may I say that I was delighted to see that Arminka Helic, a former special adviser to the now Leader of the House, has been elevated to the Lords? She originates from Bosnia and knows much about the area. I am sure that the House of Lords will hear a lot of informed views over the coming years.
I thank Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity of the debate. Even when I am no longer in Parliament, I will raise the subject of the Balkans, because like so many things—similar to the modern slavery issue, but going back a long way for me, 40 years—once it gets under your skin, however frustrating the Balkans is, it is one of the most fascinating areas of Europe. We should be delighted to have an opportunity to do what we can for it.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke, and to make a contribution to the debate.
Last week, when my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) was in this Chamber, we were the second largest party; today, we are equal first—numerically, there is a coalition today between the Conservative party and the Democratic Unionist party. The Labour party is here in third place, but there we are, and that will probably change as well—
Jim Shannon
Absolutely. As the good book says, and we adhere to it.
I thank the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) for securing this important debate. Again, I am glad to have the opportunity to make a contribution.
For many of us the Balkans is an area that we know because of the war that took place there, or because we have had holidays there—in parts, it has become a tourist destination. At the end of the day, we have an interest in it, because we want to see it succeed, its people return to prosperity and an end to the conflict and wars. The right hon. Gentleman, in his introduction, referred to the position there. In Northern Ireland, we have come through a fairly horrific war as well; the terrorist campaign left more than 3,000 dead. As a country, we have moved forward, because we felt that that was the way to do it. There had to be a partnership Government, based on all parties. Perhaps there is a lesson there for the Balkans—indeed there is—to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
The aim of the Berlin conference was to send a message of support for the Balkan countries’ European ambitions and to bolster the promises that the European Union made to those countries in more self-confident days. Those promises now seem uncertain, particularly as tensions and security concerns within the region remain. There is a clear need to help the economies in those countries to create jobs—creating jobs will create prosperity and, we hope, stability. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) made a salient intervention on the agri-food industry. The Balkans are ripe for modernisation and new agricultural ideas. Jobs will come off the back of that, as well as self-sufficiency. We should aim to make that happen.
Even in the midst of its own internal crisis and the worsening global crises from Ukraine to Iraq, Europe can ill afford to neglect the one region in which the EU has assumed full leadership as a foreign and security policy actor. Negative developments in the Balkans could reverse gains in the region, such as those made in Serbia and Kosovo, increase instability in other countries on the EU’s immediate borders and further weaken Europe’s credibility and cohesion. As the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip said, the Balkans are a vital region; the area is as important now as it was historically and the concerns are just as great today.
It should be acknowledged that the nations of the western Balkans face significant economic difficulties that are not of their own making. Their relative distance from the EU’s largest and wealthiest markets and their proximity to Greece mean that they have felt the impact of Europe’s economic crisis more than most, which is no doubt part of the reason for their enthusiasm about joining a group of economically friendly states. All member states have been hit hard by the recession, but have had one another to depend on, trade with and, in some cases, even borrow from; there has been real deprivation in many parts of the Balkans, and putting food on the table has been a problem for many people. Some people have been unable to do so: the Library information pack says that in some areas of the Balkans, up to 90% of the population are unable to get food on a regular basis. That is the reality for many people there.
At the same time, there is some confidence, because many people in the Balkans felt that 2014 was a year in which things were going to get better; in a way, they have, although not really to the extent that people had hoped. We still hope that that will happen. The first aim should be to reduce the political risk factors involved in doing business in the region. The Balkan wars are a fading memory for most of us, but there has been little in the way of real reconciliation. The different ethnic communities of Bosnia and Herzegovina continue to live separate lives. Serbia has normalised relations with Kosovo, but does not really recognise it. Even Greece’s unresolved objection to describing the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as Macedonia damages the politics of the region. The fight over words and the historical issues are important. While those dividing lines and hostilities remain, investment will look like a risk, rather than a sure thing. Those who want to invest need to be reassured by the people in the area that things are moving forward.
Countries in the region are already members of various regional European groupings such as the Organisation of the Black Sea Economic Co-operation, the Central European Initiative and the Central European Free Trade Agreement. More importantly, their shared will to become members of international organisations, such as the EU, NATO or the Council of Europe, denotes common political interests and similar attitudes towards the international environment.
While all that is happening, we have the Russian bear, in the shape of Putin, looking towards eastern states and the Balkans, where Russia once had influence. It is with some concern that we look from afar at Putin’s expansionist policies and wonder where they will end.
The western Balkan countries have made significant progress in improving regional security and moving towards EU integration, especially in the bilateral relations between Serbia and Kosovo, internally in Bosnia and Herzegovina and with regard to the EU integration of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The biggest contribution to regional security co-operation has been the signing of the framework agreement between Serbia and Kosovo, which launched the basis for peaceful and regular communication between the two. That agreement should work as a benchmark for other regions in the Balkans. It may only be small at the moment, but there is a foundation in place, which I believe could serve as a marker for the future.
Despite all the positive developments in regional security co-operation, there are still security challenges that require attention from all, and dealing with those challenges needs to be the second aim for the region. We need to see advancements in the fight against organised crime, for example: there are groups in the area that are clearly real organised crime groups; it is not just what we see in the films. My colleague in the other place, Lord Morrow, has brought forward a Bill on human trafficking for Northern Ireland, which I believe would set a precedent for the whole United Kingdom. My hon. Friends agree, and we have suggested to the UK Government that they should look at that Bill as a precedent for other measures for the United Kingdom. We all recognise, as Lord Morrow does, that human trafficking is an issue we face. It is an issue in the Balkans and is part of the organised crime there.
Dealing with political extremism and radical structures is also crucial for the Balkans to achieve long-term security and stability. There has been a significant decline in ordinary crime in the western Balkans, but organised crime and corruption—mainly drug trafficking, money laundering and human trafficking—are still present and have a great impact, facilitated by poor law enforcement.
My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) mentioned the work of faith groups. The Minister and I have talked about that on many occasions—I am pleased to see him in his place today, because I know his response will be helpful—and he knows about the good work the faith groups in the area do. I am aware of it from not just a spiritual but a practical point of view: those church groups help people to realise their ambitions and potential, and do fantastic work.
In conclusion, to reduce the risk of escalating outbursts of violence, the international community’s engagement and presence in the region continue to be necessary. Accountability, currently the weakest element in security sector governance in the western Balkan countries, needs further support.
I have already asked your permission to leave early, Mrs Brooke, as I have a meeting with the Thalidomide Trust. I have spoken to the Minister and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip as well. If I leave at about 10.25 am, I hope you know that I will have done so for no other reason than that I have to be somewhere else.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
I am sorry I did not put in a note to ask to speak, Mrs Brooke: I was inspired to speak partly by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) and partly because I have just returned from Bosnia and Herzegovina. That trip was my third visit since 2009. My right hon. Friend said he did not have much experience of Bosnia and Herzegovina; perhaps those three trips have given me a little experience. Also, in the past I was a history teacher—and not a bad one—so I can claim some knowledge from that.
I want to give hon. Members a flavour of those visits. I first went out in 2009, before the election, as part of a project called Project Maja, set up by Baroness Warsi to get politicians to go out to places and do some work there. We raised some money over here, working with another charity, the Fund for Refugees in Slovenia, which is led by a remarkable lady who I think is well known to the Minister—Lady Nott, the wife of Sir John Nott, the former Secretary of State for Defence. She set up that charity, which is still going, and she still works tirelessly to help mainly refugees from the conflict in Bosnia in the 1990s. She had incredible support from Baroness Thatcher on the quiet, and the charity has raised millions over the years to rebuild homes and villages that had been destroyed.
We raised money to help Lady Nott’s efforts to rebuild two more houses up in the villages above Srebrenica. I am sure hon. Members can imagine what it was like going to Srebrenica in 2009. I went again this year, and the divisions are still palpable. Hon. Members from Northern Ireland may know more about that than I do: the only division I really know and understand is the one between Lancashire and Yorkshire—and long may it remain. We felt the tension on the streets when we were living in Srebrenica. We went up into the hills to finish rebuilding these buildings using the money we had raised with the help of Lady Nott. I never managed to congratulate her formally on being awarded the OBE in 2013, which was some recognition for the tireless work she has undertaken in that region.
We were stood in this village with a lady—we had managed to raise some money to help repair her house—in this incredibly beautiful country, almost like Switzerland up in the hills. We asked her why she had come back. This lady had lost three sons, a husband and two of her brothers-in-law. They were all killed. She was a Bosniak—a Bosnian Muslim—and had had to flee. Her house had been burned down. She came back with her daughter-in-law and her little grandchild. That was all that was left of her family.
This lady said—through a translator, of course, and a lot more was perhaps lost in the translation—“They will not win” and that they had come back for the sake of the family who were killed. We could see Serbia—we could almost touch it across the valley—yet they had come back with the immense support of the charity set up by Lady Nott.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and congratulate the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) on introducing the debate. I know something of the feeling that has just been expressed: that we will not allow them to win. That has carried many people in Northern Ireland through very difficult days with the IRA. However, the scars of war last a very long time. With war come deprivation, poverty, grief and division. How does the hon. Gentleman feel the international community has helped the area he is speaking about to heal those scars of war?
Eric Ollerenshaw
The people in that particular incident are aware of the international community and of the Dayton agreement, which I will say something about. However, it is even more important for them to see British politicians, such as ourselves. I was out there with my hon. Friends the Members for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) and for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), who is now a Minister in the Foreign Office. He laid out a football pitch in this village—and, of course, given his military training, was ordering the rest of us around, but that is another story.
We felt that it was at least something tangible for those people to see politicians from what they regard as the other end of the world trying to help them, aside from the high-ranking meetings that had gone on, the treaties and all the rest of it. I do not know whether that is the case in Northern Ireland. The human dimension and human contact are one of the greatest touchstones. We were from mixed religions, of course.
The lady we met told us that people had grown up in these villages as a mix of Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Croats and Bosniak Muslims. They had grown up and played together. They had gone to church or to mosque on high days and holidays. This terrible thing then happened that divided them. Srebrenica is actually in Republika Srpska, which is part of Bosnia. I have been to Bosnia three times and I still find it really difficult to work out how that country is managed politically.
One of the points I want to make is that the Dayton agreement ended the bloodshed, but it is as though Bosnia and Herzegovina is frozen in time and cannot move forward. The international community has huge issues to consider in Syria, which we are about to debate in the Chamber, and in the east, but we cannot forget, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip said in his introduction, that we are talking now about where the spark that started the first world war happened. We still have unreconciled issues. Although there is no fighting going on, we should not forget that there is a need to move Bosnia and Herzegovina on. As my right hon. Friend mentioned, Serbia may join the European Community, as Croatia has. That would be a great thing. However, to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina out when they regard themselves as the victims seems to me to be a dangerous miscalculation.
Sir John Randall
My hon. Friend is making a very powerful speech. I will have to talk to him more about Bosnia after the debate. Although in some respects I am not the greatest fan of the EU for ourselves, these countries’ aspiration to get into the EU at some stage—although it is some way off—will drive them together. They could ultimately be a Balkan bloc in the EU, which could be a uniting factor.
Eric Ollerenshaw
My right hon. Friend is exactly right. He mentioned the floods. We saw the evidence of the floods. That is another thing we should not forget: there are still thousands of people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in Serbia, without a roof over their heads. The fact that the floods have gone away and are not on the television, as it were, does not mean that the aid should stop and that we should forget about them. My right hon. Friend is exactly right. The point goes back to what I said to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea): the human contact will be a great help to push past the history.
My right hon. Friend spoke about the history. I want to give an anecdote from my first trip in 2009. As an ex-history teacher, I spent the whole trip trying to explain about the Habsburg empire. I will not go into the history curriculum, but a really good thing about this Government is that we are getting back to a proper history curriculum, so people might know what the Habsburg empire was. That is a side issue.
We visited Sarajevo and went to the spot where the archduke and his wife were assassinated. We then went to the biggest mosque in the city to meet the Grand Mufti, the head of the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. One sometimes wishes we had a Grand Mufti in Britain; that might help in certain senses. He was recognised as the leading figure among Muslims. The mosque was in the Ottoman style, and we sat on very low benches. The Grand Mufti came in; he clearly was the Grand Mufti from everything he was wearing: he looked like something from an Ottoman court, a great man. He first words, in English—remember this was 2009—were, “This mosque is the Emperor’s mosque. It was restored by the Emperor Franz Joseph. The last time Bosnia and Herzegovina was run properly was by the Habsburgs.” We could see the shades of the history that my right hon. Friend talked about pouring down on us.
I went back in 2011, again as part of Project Maja, to help redo a special needs school. That was alongside my hon. Friends the Members for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). We were working alongside Bosnian politicians, trying to help out in a special needs school, because that school made no distinction about religion. That was a real opportunity to demonstrate something.
Finally, I went out this year with my hon. Friends the Members for Redditch (Karen Lumley), for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) and for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), and also with a Member of the House of Lords, the Earl of Courtown. I remember a remarkable situation. We were discussing with Bosnian politicians how there had been no movement from Dayton and that they were stuck in a tripartite situation. The chairman of the Bosnian party explained how one of the issues they had was trying to move on from what was essentially a feudal system. The Earl of Courtown said that his situation was, of course, feudal as well. The chairman replied that his was also because he was an hereditary Bey from the days of the Ottoman empire. Nothing much changes.
I have been to Srebrenica three times to see the memorial and have taken new Members to it. One of my proudest moments in this Parliament was in July two years ago, when the British Government became the first Government in Europe to have a solemn memorial at Lancaster House in recognition of the Srebrenica massacre. That memorial was held for the second time last year.
On my recent visit, we had a long meeting with the International Commission on Missing Persons, which, if any good can come out of such terrible things, is perhaps a good, because of the training it has provided in Bosnia in finding and tracing families and remains through DNA. It should not be forgotten that the graves of many people who were massacred were dug up, and the bones scattered, in a deliberate attempt to prevent families from being traced. The commission has much support, including that of Britain—and long may that continue. Its techniques are now being used across the world.
I want in particular to express my respect for Adam Boys, who has been in the region for 20 years as a commission director; I think he has said that this will be his last year before returning. He has done incredible work. It is funny to discover what a small world it is: when I first met him three years ago he told me that as a boy he spent all his summer holidays in Fleetwood, which is clearly a preparation for becoming a director of the International Commission on Missing Persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Our group went to a room where there were more than 1,000 separate bags of remains—bones—whose DNA was still being tracked. I must admit that I had not thought about this before, but it was explained to us how originally an attempt was made to trace people using their clothing; however, clothing can be misinterpreted, and it rots, in time. Using DNA requires the DNA of living family members, but we can imagine that if someone has survived a massacre, and then some official wants their DNA, they will be extremely suspicious. It has taken years to convince families that it may be a way of tracing people.
We went to Srebrenica and laid flowers—that small but important thing that humans do as a form of recognition. We talked to an old lady there, from Mothers of Srebrenica. She said that at least this year she had something of her 14-year-old son, who had been lost. She had two bones that had been found, which were traceable as his, and she said that at least she had been able to have a burial. Bosnia and Herzegovina have left the television screens, and the events may even be taught as part of modern history—they will be seen as something that happened. However, the situation has not, in fact, moved on a great deal. It is perhaps not a priority for the international community, and that is worrying and dangerous for the long term.
The principal reason for our visit this year was, following what the previous Foreign Secretary did to raise sexual violence in war up the agenda, to assist Medica Zenica—in the town of Zenica. The charity was created after the war to help women scarred by sexual violence in the war, as well as children who resulted from that sexual violence. We had raised some money for an extension to the charity, and being humble Members of Parliament we were put to work painting walls. That was some help, but the real help was perhaps in raising the money and highlighting the charity.
We spent two days doing that work. The children of the sexual violence that happened are now in their 20s. What is a mother to say to their son or daughter about what happened and where they came from—in a society where religious background is critical? I pay tribute to the continued work of Medica Zenica.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip spoke about travelling in Albania. During our visit we were told that one of the next big things to deal with was the trafficking across Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were children there; we could not be told where they had come from for reasons of legal protection, but clearly the trade was moving through.
Sir John Randall
I did not want to imply that it was only Albania that had those problems. It is the whole area. Some places are destinations, some are transit areas, and some are where the victims come from, but the whole region is involved.
Eric Ollerenshaw
I understand that. There are boundaries that to some are not boundaries—a Croat in Bosnia can enter Croatia and a Serb in Bosnia Herzegovina can enter Serbia, and so on. The issue that I want to raise is that the Bosniak population, essentially a Muslim population, has nowhere else. They are European Muslims. In one sense, given the way that the world is and the way communities are behaving, they are the Muslim group—European Muslims who have been Muslim for hundreds of years—that should be a force in Europe, showing that there is a form of moderate Islam, which works.
I have given a personal account of three visits to part of the Balkans. I have only once been to the Serbian side, to Belgrade. I suppose that other hon. Members who have made more such trips than I have will have felt as I did before flying home, and wondered how such things could happen in such an incredibly beautiful country. That is the thought that leads us on.
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip for raising the issue. Perhaps, although the western Balkans are absent from television screens, this debate will highlight the huge issues that remain for our Government and other European Governments to deal with, so that they do not forget.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
A Tory MP’s retirement is not always a moment for sadness on the Labour Benches, but I feel that the House will be a little poorer for the departure of the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall), partly because of his good sense of humour, but also—in today’s context—because of his knowledge of and interest in the western Balkans. I congratulate him, in the usual way, on securing the debate and on the way he introduced the subject, despite constituency pressures.
I had the privilege of visiting Sarajevo, Banja Luka and Kosovo as an International Development Minister in the previous Government—in 2004, I believe. I welcome the opportunity to return to some of the issues that I looked at then and to join other Members in assessing the progress, or lack of it, since that time.
The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip referred in passing to depleted uranium, and I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s response. His comments reminded me of one element of my visit 10 years ago, which was to consider the funding that the Department for International Development was giving to the work of de-mining charities. I suspect that there is still a huge amount of unexploded ordnance in the Balkans as a result of the recent conflicts. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister, although perhaps not now, about the matter that the right hon. Gentleman raised and the more general one of how Britain and the EU might continue to help deal with unexploded ordnance.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made an interesting speech and dwelt at one point on the impact of organised crime and human trafficking in the western Balkans, touching on the potential impact on our shores. It would be helpful to hear more from the Minister about how UK Government resources are helping to tackle the continued threat to our borders from organised crime in the western Balkans.
As one history teacher to another, I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw). He gave a powerful account of the terrible trauma of the mother who had only just received a small part of the remains of her 14-year-old son. We remember not only those who lost their lives in the conflict, but those families still living who do not know what happened to some of their missing relatives, or have had no remains returned to them and therefore have no closure. That is extremely important.
The 1990s, as hon. Members recognise, saw the violent break-up of former Yugoslavia. As we have touched on, the scars from those conflicts still run very deep in much of the western Balkans. The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip and the hon. Member Lancaster and Fleetwood alluded to the massacre in Srebrenica, which stands out as probably one of the worst moments of a truly dreadful period in the region’s history.
The period since then has seen a gradual return to basic political stability, but the recent financial crisis and the economic traumas that that ushered in have had a big impact on the lives of many people in the region. Political and economic stability and, crucially, better governance matter very much in the western Balkans and further conflict would inevitably have an impact here in the UK. The central point made by the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip that the House must continue to pay attention to events in that part of Europe’s back garden was extremely well made.
The hon. Member for Strangford alluded to the considerable economic challenges. Unemployment, especially youth unemployment, remains extremely high throughout the western Balkans, while levels of economic growth are low at best, and organised crime and corruption still have too strong a hold.
Croatia joined the European Union recently and membership remains a powerful attraction for other countries in the region, helping to incentivise reform. Important as Britain’s direct relationship is with each individual country and their political leaders in the western Balkans, it is perhaps their relationship with the European Union that matters most in geopolitical terms, although, as the hon. Member for Strangford said, Russia remains a powerful near neighbour.
If the Minister does nothing else in response to my comments, I hope he will dwell on how he sees the relationship between the European Union and the western Balkans developing. For example, how will crucial finance institutions, such as the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development or the European Investment Bank develop their role in the region? What are the priorities for European neighbourhood budget funding for the region? How does the Minister see the political relationship between the countries of the western Balkans and the EU developing? Despite the current challenges they all face, are all the western Balkan countries potential candidates for accession to the EU in due course?
I turn to individual countries. Kosovo is particularly poor economically compared with others in the region, with more than half the population living in poverty. The tensions between the ethnic Serb minority and the Albanian majority are still very evident. The EU brokered an important deal in 2013 in an effort to normalise relations between the two communities, with ethnic Serbs in northern Kosovo having their own police and appeal court, but they are now voting for the same local government bodies as Albanians. It would be helpful to hear the Minister’s assessment of how those new arrangements are working on the ground.
I understand that Kosovo possesses considerable mineral resources, but agriculture is still its main economic activity. It would be good to hear whether the Minister is aware of any efforts, perhaps encouraged by the EU or specific financial institutions, such as the World Bank, to encourage development of those resources.
Serbia began accession talks with the EU in January. Given its recent history, Serbia’s progress has been remarkable and its political leaders deserve praise for that progress. It became a stand-alone, sovereign republic only in the summer of 2006 after Montenegro voted for independence from the post-Milosevic union of Serbia and Montenegro. The evolution of its relationship with Kosovo has been particularly challenging for the Serbian people and even now, despite the EU-brokered deal with Kosovo, Serbia insists that it does not recognise its former province’s independence.
There has been the challenge of rounding up the former senior political and military figures from Serbia’s most brutal past to face justice in The Hague, a crucial and important part of Serbia’s recent journey. How does the Minister view the EU’s talks with Serbia, and when might accession take place? One thing that Ministers, Back Benchers and the Opposition can do is to visit political leaders in the western Balkans and encourage reform. It would be good to hear whether Ministers have visited Serbia recently to continue to encourage progress towards EU accession.
Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe. Unemployment remains high at 13%, and poor quality infrastructure and corruption continue to deter significant foreign investment. Transparency International says that Albania remains the most corrupt country in Europe. Clearly, sorting out that corruption and tackling organised crime remain two of the principal elements for Albania’s future progress. I understand that those two issues had originally motivated in part the Government’s opposition to Albania’s candidature for EU membership. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister specifically what changed the Government’s mind in June.
If media reports are to be believed, the Prime Minister has made it clear that any future accessions will have to be subject to new transitional controls. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister a little more about the Government’s thinking about the nature of those new transitional controls that might be imposed on Albania as part of any accession agreement.
Bosnia and Herzegovina faces a particularly challenging future, as the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip acknowledged, with ongoing political instability and huge economic challenges, coupled with the remaining deep ethnic divides. There is 40% unemployment at the moment, and almost 60% unemployment among the young. Corruption is a huge issue and includes accusations of a series of privatisation scams that are holding back economic development
The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip referred to the Dayton peace agreement, which was signed in Ohio in 1995. It forced the two sides in the Bosnian war to form a single country, but with two sets of state institutions, laws and Parliaments, as well as a federal Government. Efforts to reform that system of government—it took almost 16 months to produce a federal Government after the last election—have not been successful, and resentment at the state of politics in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the economy has produced considerable anger with demonstrations in February, talk of a Bosnian spring and the leadership of the ethnic Serbs in the Republika Srpska arguing for independence from Bosnia. How does the Minister see the future for Bosnia and what further efforts does he expect from, for example, the EU—perhaps the new High Representative—to help to broker a more sustainable political settlement in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
Macedonia has emerged, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, from a particularly difficult year in 2001, with agreement recently that it should become a candidate for EU membership. Again, corruption remains a challenge and political tensions remain too, following elections in April. An assessment of Macedonia’s political situation and how quickly progress towards EU accession might happen would be welcome from the Minister.
In summary, the western Balkans remain a politically fragile and very economically challenged part of Europe’s neighbourhood, and it is incumbent on the UK to play a role in continuing to encourage an easing of those political tensions and economic progress. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he sees the UK’s role in doing exactly that.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) on securing the debate. As he said, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe would have been delighted to respond, but he is currently travelling on ministerial duties. It is therefore my pleasure to respond on behalf of the Government.
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip for his long-term interest in and contribution to our relations with the western Balkans. I thank the all-party parliamentary groups for their important role in building links with the region. He said that he had not prepared a speech; clearly, he did not need to. Perhaps if more Members spoke from knowledge and from the heart, as he did this morning, rather than just reading out prepared scripts, this place would be all the better for it. He is steeped in the Serbo-Croat language and literature and knows what he is talking about, which can, in this place, be both dangerous and place him in an almost unique position.
The UK’s relationship with the western Balkans is long and deep, as we have heard from both sides of the House. We reflected on that relationship this summer, as we commemorated the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war. The fact that, in effect, the first shots of the war rang out in Sarajevo, as we all know, reminds us why the stability and security of that region are so important to our country and the world.
My right hon. Friend has given valuable support to the commemoration activity. He alluded to the role played by Flora Sandes, Britain’s pioneering combatant in the war, and I much enjoyed the reasons he gave for the throwing of grenades, from the previous training as a shepherd. I am particularly pleased that my Department will be involved in touring the play, which I believe is coming over to the UK.
The hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), who speaks for the Opposition, mentioned Srebrenica, as did others. How could we debate the western Balkans without mentioning it? I hope that my right hon. Friend, when he has more time, will travel to Srebrenica. My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), again, in a very inspiring and knowledgeable speech, alluded to the expertise and knowledge that he had gained from travelling there on a number of occasions. He also mentioned the Fund for Refugees in Slovenia—of which I still, I should declare, remain a trustee—and the work of the founder of the fund, Lady Nott, who he said I know well. Actually, I know Lady Nott so well that she woke me up this morning—before the salacious gossip mongers and writers get too excited about that, I should also confess that she is, in fact, my mother-in-law. She has done a remarkable job and continues to do so.
I also pay tribute to the fact that we now recognise the charity Remembering Srebrenica and we are doing more, on an annual basis, to remember the horrors that went on. The Fund for Refugees still does incredibly good work without any Government resource in rebuilding the shattered communities around Srebrenica. It is all privately funded. I have never quite understood why we do not fund it, but I am not allowed to go down that road really. I urge the shadow Minister and, indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, when they go to Srebrenica, to see some of the work that the fund has done in trying to plant orchards and rebuild communities, very often without men, because the men are simply not there. It has done a remarkable job and I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood for raising it, as I know he has been a stalwart supporter of it.
My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of moderate Muslims in that part of the world, which is a key point. I think that there is evidence of some radicalisation now taking place, and that needs to be looked at and stamped out very quickly indeed.
The need for stability in the western Balkans remains a crucial priority today. The UK has, for two decades, been a providing a significant contribution to that, along with our NATO and EU allies. We demonstrated our commitment with our swift response to the devastating floods in Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina earlier this year. The UK provided the team leader for the EU-wide civil protection response, other experts for the broader EU effort and emergency equipment, including radios and vehicles. In addition, at the recent international donors’ conference, the UK pledged an initial £2 million bilaterally for reconstruction work—the sort of work that the hon. Member for Harrow West will be familiar with from his time as a Minister of State in the Department for International Development.
It is, however, sadly too soon to say that the western Balkans have achieved the irreversible stability and prosperity that the people of the region deserve. Many challenges remain—we have heard about them this morning—from corruption, weak governance and shaky institutions to a lack of the rule of law in some places. Security is not yet entrenched, and, as is obvious from the nationalist rhetoric and Republika Srpska’s secessionist aspirations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that remains the case there. Those are their challenges but our concerns. The security and stability of the Balkans and the rest of Europe are interdependent. Neither containment nor neglect are the answer. That is why we are proactive in helping the Governments in the region to try to tackle those issues through political and economic reform.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the EU. The EU and NATO accession processes are the best means to drive that reform and are the only source, frankly, of long-term stability in the region. Although we have seen significant progress in the past few years, not least in Croatia’s accession to the EU in 2013, the integration of the region into Euro-Atlantic structures remains unfinished. There is work to be done. The UK is committed to supporting the further enlargement of the EU with all the western Balkans, on the basis of firm but fair conditionality.
The hon. Gentleman talked about future legislation to do with population changes, which is a very topical subject here in the United Kingdom at the moment. The conditionality that I referred to must also help ensure that future enlargements will not lead to mass migrations. It is clear that transitional controls on free movement for future enlargements cannot be done, as was done in the past. We want to start a debate in the EU about what new arrangements might look like, but they must be robust and command public confidence.
Mr Swire
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that he will not agree to any new member state joining the EU until new transitional controls are in place, and that would represent something new and important. We have worked hard with our European partners to ensure that the previous weaknesses of the enlargement processes are addressed with rigorous and early action on rule of law failures. We will sustain and intensify our work to ensure that the principle of freedom of movement is not abused. I hope that, in that work and with that change, we will get the support of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition.
Mr Thomas
We would be very interested in supporting the Government, but we would like to know what they are proposing. The Minister has given—I say this gently, as this has been a very good debate up to now—a rather general response. It would be helpful to have a little more specific detail on what the Government are proposing to talk about with our European colleagues.
Mr Swire
Of course, the details will be unrolled as we begin our negotiations, but if we can bank it, as a starting point, that the Opposition will agree in principle that new transitional controls must be in place for any new member state to join the EU, that will be something we can take to Europe.
Sir John Randall
Something that we can discuss and that I often hear about is that businesses and important people coming over still have problems getting visas. Although I would be absolutely onside with the arrangements that we hope to have when new countries come into the EU, the existing ones on visas should be smartened up a bit; otherwise it does not say much to those important people we are trying to get to come over. The reason may be cultural; it may be sporting; it is certainly business; and there is a problem.
Mr Swire
Indeed. This issue is raised with us across the Department from all parts of the world; it is not unique to the western Balkans. I think that, on the whole, our visa processes are improving.
Against the background that I have set out, I welcome the start of EU accession negotiations with Serbia earlier this year. Much has been achieved during the past 15 years, but there is much left to do. The UK supports Serbia’s reforms and, in particular, its media reform. Progress has been made in Serbia-Kosovo relations, but there remain major challenges, not least in the economic sphere and in relations with its neighbours.
I pay tribute to the courageous steps taken by both Serbia and Kosovo to improve their relationship. The agreement between the two countries in April 2013 was an historic moment for reconciliation. Both sides must now ensure, though, that the agreement is not just written on paper but turned into practice, so that it can lead to the full normalisation of relations through the EU-facilitated dialogue.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, who sponsored this debate, asked in relation to Kosovo what had been done to address the situation of displaced Serbs, including those still living in containers. We very much agree that that is an important issue, both from a humanitarian point of view and for long-term reconciliation. This Government remain the biggest bilateral donor supporting the Kosovo Serbs. I will write to my right hon. Friend about the specific issue that he raised about whether sacred monuments in Kosovo are still being guarded. That, of course, is a subject close to my heart. We will find out what the latest on that is and write to him.
Before I move on properly to Kosovo, I want to return briefly to Serbia. We must encourage Serbia to continue to play an increasingly positive role in the region, and I urge Belgrade to do more, particularly when it serves as chair of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe next year. That is a real opportunity for it. We strongly urge Serbia to align more closely with EU member states on key foreign policy issues, especially the one that is now very pregnant: relations with Russia and the whole situation in Ukraine.
I shall revert now to Kosovo. The shadow Minister asked about Kosovo and the EU. We hope that Kosovo will also start on its own EU path shortly, with the signature of a stabilisation and association agreement. That will allow the EU to intensify discussions on reforms, so helping to build a Kosovo with a prosperous future for all its communities and minorities. In the meantime, we will encourage Kosovo to make progress on the normalisation of its relationship with Serbia.
In this tour d’horizon of the region, I now move effortlessly across to Montenegro. I welcome the recent efforts in Montenegro—for example, in aligning itself with EU positions on Ukraine, despite significant pressure from Russia. Montenegro, like Serbia, has responded positively to the incentives of the EU enlargement plan, and we are encouraged by the progress being made as part of the EU accession process. However, let us be in no doubt. There remain many challenges—in particular, progressing Montenegro’s work against organised crime and corruption—but we commend the strong progress that it is making towards joining NATO. Last week’s successful NATO summit in Wales confirmed our intention to initiate focused and intensified talks.
I come now to Albania. I have always been rather fascinated by Albania since I came across a history of Albania written by—I do not know whether he was a kinsman of mine—J. Swire, a big red book, which I have yet to read. In fact, I am meant to be lending it to the former high commissioner to Australia, who has now gone to Rome and who looks after Albania. I promised that I would lend him the book. J. Swire went out to Albania, I think, as a tutor—to a young King Zog, I should imagine. Albania has always held a fascination for me, and I am pleased to say that Albania, too, is making progress now. The new Government are serious about strengthening the rule of law, with a major plan to tackle organised crime, corruption and judicial reform. In the first half of 2014, there were major police operations against drugs and a 70% increase in arrests for human trafficking.
I think that I am right in saying that my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip has just been to Albania—
Mr Swire
That was with our friend and former colleague, Anthony Steen, who has done so much to help the Government on human trafficking. Some of the Northern Irish MPs spoke earlier about what is going on in Northern Ireland now, and I was pleased, when I was a Northern Ireland Minister, to take Anthony Steen over to Northern Ireland, where an all-party group on trafficking was set up at Stormont. I pay tribute to the work that he continues to do.
Sir John Randall
May I give a little plug for the fact that we are still trying to get human trafficking groups set up around Europe and are always on the lookout for some funding from the Foreign Office?
Mr Swire
A point well made.
The issues to which I referred have an impact on the UK, and we are a leading supporter of Albania’s efforts to combat them. For example, we have signed memorandums of understanding with Albania on information sharing, and in July of this year our embassy in Tirana funded a border police processing and debriefing facility. That doubled capacity at Tirana airport for returns of failed asylum seekers and other irregular migrants, and it sends a clear message that the UK is serious about cutting back on illegal migration from Albania.
Although there is much progress in the western Balkans, we must ensure that the whole region is moving forward, and worryingly that cannot be said at the moment of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The country faces constitutional paralysis and ethnic division through a lack of reforms and economic stagnation. Bosnia’s politicians owe it to their people to provide jobs and prosperity. Instead, they keep them hostage to nationalist rhetoric, which is a cover for their failure to meet ordinary citizens’ aspirations. In addition, the daily challenges to Bosnia’s sovereignty by the openly secessionist leadership in the entity of Republika Srpska are on the increase. We are clear: the redrawing of borders in the western Balkans is finished, so we urge political leaders there to respond fully to the EU’s offer of support and to heed legitimate calls from the Bosnian population. The upcoming elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina will be an important opportunity for those voices to be heard.
The United Kingdom stands ready, with our EU partners, to support the process. Our contribution to Bosnia’s stability already provides foundations for the country to build on. We play a significant role in the EUFOR peacekeeping mission in Bosnia, increasing UK troop numbers this year in response to violent protests in February.
We also urge further reforms on Macedonia. We continue to be strong supporters of Macedonia’s EU and NATO future, but the country must take urgent, decisive action to address growing shortcomings in its democratic institutions and processes, judicial independence and media freedom. We continue to encourage both sides to work on the issue of the name.
In summary, some western Balkan countries are successfully rising to the many challenges that they face, but others are lagging behind and must do more to ensure that the whole region can move forward together. We want a strong and flourishing region on the EU’s doorstep, not one that fuels crime, corruption or trafficking or is a source of instability and insecurity. Our national interest, historical links with the region and long relationship are there to be built on, and we are determined to do that.
I am genuinely sorry to be losing my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip as a colleague at the next general election. As he said, we served together in the Whips Office. Parliament will lose a valuable Member, but perhaps Parliament’s loss will be Randall of Uxbridge’s gain. I thank him again. I commend the interest and work on both sides of the House, but particularly that done by my right hon. Friend in helping to strengthen those links.
Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar and Cleveland)
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I rise to speak about a local issue: the discretionary social fund of Redcar and Cleveland borough council. I represent a corner of Yorkshire that has had mixed fortunes over the past few years. We have had a steep decline in employment in traditional industries over the past couple of decades, which has led to some real economic challenges. The restart of the steelworks in 2012 has helped to reverse the fortunes of the region, and with Government support there has been further improvement since then, with unemployment falling by 22% in the past year in my constituency.
My constituency remains 33rd out of 650 for unemployment, however, so there are some real challenges. It contains real pockets of deprivation: South Bank and Grangetown wards are among the most deprived in the whole country, and 80% of pupils at Grangetown primary school receive free school meals. I am particularly concerned to ensure that any help the Government can give on the social side is well targeted and reaches the people who need it.
Under the previous Government, the Department for Work and Pensions administered the discretionary social fund. That continued until the end of March 2013, and on 1 April 2013 responsibility for the social fund passed to local councils. Until that date, I cannot remember having any case work to do with the social fund. Clearly, people have needs, but the DWP seemed to be able to deal with cases on a basis that the people involved found acceptable. It is worth remembering that under the previous Government, the DWP did not have the power to refer people to food banks and other agencies. I am pleased that this Government have changed that, because if people need help, they should get the referrals that they need.
Councils assumed responsibility for the discretionary social fund. Redcar and Cleveland borough council’s cabinet papers contained a short description of the purpose of the fund:
“To provide financial assistance in times of crisis and assistance to customers returning to the community from a previous care arrangement.”
The money was given to the council for such purposes, although it was not ring-fenced; I will return to that point later. The DWP retained responsibility for situations of crisis that had to do with benefit transitions and delays. Will the Minister confirm that that is his reading of the situation? Is he comfortable that the new interface is working effectively? When the DWP had responsibility for the discretionary social fund, there was no interface, but one of the issues now is whether a crisis situation is the responsibility of the local council or the DWP.
The budget for the discretionary social fund was transferred to councils, and for 2013-14 there was programme funding of £631,000 and an allowance for administration costs of £133,000. In 2014-15, the amount of programme funding was the same, but the administration allowance was only £122,000. How were those amounts assessed? Clearly, some work was done in the DWP to assess need in the area. I would be interested to know, if the Minister has comparable figures, what the spend was in 2012-13, which led to the DWP’s assessment.
Redcar and Cleveland borough council, having received responsibility for the discretionary social fund, reacted in a constructive fashion and put together a comprehensive policy document. I have to say, however, that that document went way beyond the definitions that I have mentioned of what the money was for, and it contained a huge number of potential exclusions. Although I understand the need for controls and the avoidance of unnecessary claims on the fund, the policy document seemed to be more about setting out circumstances in which the money could not be given out rather than those in which it could.
The council has established an online application system, which raises concerns about exclusion, either because of digital access or literacy. We must remember that we are dealing with those who are in crisis and need. They may not have access to online equipment, or they may not be able to use it. I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on the application process, because I know that the DWP is moving in that direction. The council also established a policy that they would not make cash payments, to avoid the risk of discretionary social fund payments being spent on drugs, alcohol, tobacco or other things that would be unnecessary in a crisis situation.
What actually happened? In 2013-14, the council received 2,100 applications for the fund and it made awards in 195 cases, so less than 10% of applications were awarded. In fairness, the large number of unsuccessful applications—more than 1,900—includes those who were referred onward to the DWP because of the interface question that I have mentioned, so not all were complete rejections. Against the original allowance of £764,000, the spend in 2013-14 was £256,000, so more than £500,000 of the money given to the council was not actually spent. I do not have a breakdown of the £256,000, but assuming that the council spent more or less what was budgeted on administration, and I have no reason to think that that was not the case, the actual assistance given must have been some £120,000 out of the £631,000 that was allowed. That would mean that less than 20% of the money was given out. I also know that the total amount spent included money for section 17 children’s claims, which used to be met from a different budget in the council. The council also put some small amounts from the fund towards dealing with council tax for flooded properties. The amount that went to people in real hardship was a relatively small part of the total allocation.
As I have said, if I worked through the council’s policy document, I could find many ways of saying no to people’s claims. That has resulted in an increased case load for me as the local MP, and we have many examples of people being turned down. For example, someone was turned down because they had an annual mobile phone contract. Quite how they were supposed to turn that into cash to help with their crisis was not explained. That did not seem the right thing to do to someone who was experiencing a short-term problem.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the funds that have not been spent yet, which I believe are at about the £465,000 mark. The council has said that it is carrying those funds forward to use for future allocations. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that that is a wise course of action, in light of the fact that on 2 January this year, the Government cancelled discretionary social fund payments to councils for future years? Does he agree that the council could use that balance to help future DSF claimants, given that the Government will not make any further allocations?
Ian Swales
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that comment. I share his concern, which I will mention later. I hope the Minister will respond on the future of the DSF.
There was a £508,000 underspend, which has been added to the £754,000 allocation for the current year, 2014-15, which makes £1.26 million in total. As the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) mentioned, the council has set out a plan to spend that money over four years, rather than in just the one year that we would have had left under the original allocation, which addresses his point. The council clearly assumes that no further DSF money will be available beyond that period. More than £500,000 was required to be spent on crisis in our area, so will the Minister confirm that, through the various reforms, his Department plans to make that nil from the year 2015-16? If that is the case, I understand why the council might feel the need to spread the money more widely. More than £800,000 of the Department’s allocation for the two years 2013-14 and 2014-15 will actually be spent in three future years beyond the general election, which obviously has implications for spending versus politics.
The council has developed a comprehensive spending plan for the £1.26 million. Over a four-year period the council intends to make grant awards of £190,000 and loans of £300,000, of which it expects £75,000 to be repaid over the period. The citizens advice bureau will get £75,000, including £20,000 to improve financial capability. A carers charity will get £20,000 to help carers and the disabled apply for the funds. £75,000 will go to the local credit union to help make it sustainable. I mentioned the section 17 children’s awards, which will total £200,000. Some £475,000 will be spent on administration, which when added to the administration that happened in the first year, 2013-14, means that some £600,000 will be spent on administration—council processes and staff—as opposed to the £255,000 that was allocated for 2013-14 and 2014-15. The upshot is that over the next four years, of the £1.26 million, only £190,000, or about 15%, is available for straightforward grants to people in crisis. The plan is to spend the rest of the money in the ways that I have outlined. Does the Minister believe that his Department expected such a picture to emerge when it gave those funds?
The original purpose of the discretionary social fund was
“to provide financial assistance in times of crisis and assistance to customers returning to the community from a previous care arrangement.”
That was the council’s original remit for the money, and things have clearly moved on since then. The council’s plans are a bold attempt to address the issues of deprivation and the problems in our area, but my sense is that far less direct help is reaching those who are most in need, and my casework bears that out. I would appreciate it if the Minister responded on the balance of the spending.
This debate is about the discretionary social fund, but I cannot allow it to be completed without referring to the discretionary housing payment fund, which is associated with the discretionary social fund and is in place to address issues arising from the welfare reform process. In mid-February 2014, it was discovered that only just over half of the DHP money had been paid out for the year ending in March 2014. I understand that, unlike the discretionary social fund, the discretionary housing payment fund would have had to have been repaid if it had not been used within the financial year. Again, I was concerned by the number of rejections about which I was hearing. I wrote to the Minister’s colleague, Lord Freud, a number of times, especially on the issue of disabled adults.
The Minister for Pensions may be aware that it was Redcar and Cleveland borough council that lost a court case involving a disabled adult to whom it had not been prepared to pay a discretionary housing payment. The judgment clearly stated:
“In considering whether there is under-occupation of the appellant’s property, the local authority has not taken into consideration her disabilities and her reasonable requirements, as a result of these, to sleep in a bedroom of her own”.
It is certainly true, as Lord Freud kept writing back to me, that discretionary housing payments were meant to cover such circumstances, and the judgment made that very clear. The council, however, expected people in that situation to apply every three months for the renewal of their discretionary housing payment, and many other councils expect only an annual application, particularly from people who suffer from disability. The Minister for Pensions knows that I have consistently fought on that issue, and I was obviously pleased to support the Affordable Homes Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) last Friday. The anomaly for disabled adults will hopefully be addressed, assuming the Bill is enacted, and such court cases and difficulties for people will no longer be required.
The discretionary housing budget was spent by the council, and one way in which it was spent was that a number of local residents were delighted to receive an unexpected £1,000 cheque through their letterboxes. Some of them had moved up to six months previously because they had been under-occupying. I understand the council’s reluctance to provide the money at the time because it did not know whether the budget would extend and be sufficient for the last month of the year, but it managed to defray the money very quickly when the year end was approaching. Redcar and Cleveland borough council was of course one of the councils that applied for extra money, so not all the money arrived at the start of the year. However, I met a few delighted residents who had suddenly received £1,000 that they were not expecting.
The administration of the two funds raises questions about the competence and attitude of some of the staff involved in the process. Given the stories that I have heard, I believe that, overall, my constituents have suffered more than they need to suffer. I will refrain from saying that this was politically motivated, but there is no doubt that the Labour party has been able to campaign on welfare reform more effectively as a result of some of the issues.
I am obviously not raising this issue today to get a response from the Minister on every detail, so I will summarise. I have already asked a number of questions. Is he satisfied that the interface is clear on the Department’s responsibility for benefit transitions and delays, and on the council’s responsibility for the discretionary social fund? How was the discretionary social fund money given to the council for 2013-14 and 2014-15 assessed, and how did it compare with previous years, particularly 2012-13? Is it true that the Department expects the amount to be nil for 2015-16 and beyond? Is he happy that, over the next four years, only 15% of the discretionary social fund is budgeted for direct grants to individuals and that more than twice as much money is earmarked for council administration?
The Department has embarked on many challenging reforms, and any Government would have made quite a lot of those reforms. The Government have provided help, and the Department’s reputation depends on that help being used effectively. Clearly we support localism, but is he happy that the money is not ring-fenced? Should the Department say more about the criteria for the awards? Are local councils the right recipients of the funds? These are challenging times for many of my constituents, and the Government are carrying on the work of the previous Government in balancing taxpayers’ money and welfare and trying to mitigate the consequent effects. I look forward to the Minister’s response on how that has been happening in my local area.
The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) on securing the debate and on representing his constituents’ concerns in such a measured, thoughtful and well-informed way.
In the brief time available to me, I hope to answer my hon. Friend’s questions and make some observations about how Redcar and Cleveland council’s performance compares with that of other local authorities. Some of the things he observed are, to a greater or lesser extent, common across local authorities, but some suggest that there are particular issues in Redcar that I should address.
My hon. Friend asked about the allocations for 2013-14 and beyond. Nationally, we are roughly spending the money that we would have spent on community care grants and certain crisis loans, plus an amount for administration, had we continued the schemes. The transition to local provision was not a cut, but broadly a transfer of the money we would have spent.
My hon. Friend asked how the specific allocations were made. They were based on historical spend and demand. In other words, we looked at where community care grants were paid and where crisis loans were bid for. It is never quite as simple as that, but that is the basis for the allocations. He asked for the figure for 2012-13. In his area, the Department for Work and Pensions spent £717,000 on the things that the council is now responsible for.
I will briefly recap what happened. My hon. Friend spoke about localism, and we took the view that, although it is right that DWP does certain things nationally, it is important that the national Government do not overlap, duplicate and interact unhelpfully with what local authorities do. We looked at what DWP was doing, and it became apparent that community care grants and, to some extent, crisis loans overlapped with things that local authorities were already doing for vulnerable people, people coming out of care and people in crisis. The point of the reforms was to give local authorities the money that we would have spent and enable them to co-ordinate it, so people have to deal with only one authority, not two, and get better results.
It is fair to say that all local authorities in 2013-14 took a while to get going on local welfare provision, which was not surprising given that it was new money and that new processes had to be set up. We estimate that in the first year, 2013-14, about 60% of the funding that was available across the country was spent. We think the corresponding figure for Redcar and Cleveland is 40%—that is programme funding, not administration.
Although we accept that there is a general issue about setting up new systems because it is costly and takes time, Redcar and Cleveland council seems to have struggled more than many others in getting the money out to its citizens. As my hon. Friend said, the unspent money was carried forward, so it will get into the system at some point. Nevertheless, in 2013-14 many people in need did not get the money when they needed it, and the fact that the council will spend the money in 2017-18 or 2018-19 does not address those people’s needs, which is regrettable.
My hon. Friend asked about ring-fencing, which is a constant dilemma. Philosophically, he and I are both localists, so we think that, in general, local authorities are best placed to determine local need. There is a risk if we tell councils in every specific case that they absolutely have to spend so much money on a certain thing because we think it is important. There is a tension between those things, and judgments must constantly be made. The philosophy behind the localisation was to merge the funding with other council funding in an integrated way to make funding for one person part of the big pot, so we felt particularly uncomfortable about creating a hard ring fence, although we thought hard about it. In the end, we said to local authorities, “This is your money.” The two things my hon. Friend referred to—crisis loans for people in immediate crisis and community care grants for people who are coming back into the community—are where we would have spent the money, and they mirror where the money was previously spent.
We asked local authorities to report back to us. As there was an underspend in 2013-14, I wrote to local authorities in January and July 2014 to tell them that in 2014-15 we would like to know what was happening on a quarterly basis. The majority of local authorities replied to that letter, but Redcar and Cleveland did not, which puts us in a difficult position. In the letter on 2014-15 spending, I said:
“Whilst we do not intend to withhold money, if evidence comes to light that the money is not being spent we will have to revisit that decision during the course of the year… Providing a return is a crucial part of monitoring this spend”.
I urge my hon. Friend’s local authority to let us know what it has been spending the money on in 2014-15. As custodians of more than £170 million a year of public money, we have a duty to seek assurance, in the context of localism, that the money is being well spent, so we need to hear back from the local authorities.
My hon. Friend also raised an important issue about the proportion of people being turned down, which is concerning. Not everybody used to get social fund loans or community care grants, but, roughly, more than two thirds of people who applied for crisis loans and more than a third of people who applied for community care grants were successful. Although my hon. Friend said that the one in 10 figure might not be what it seems, one must ask whether we have the balance right if the vast majority of people who have gone through the expense and difficulty of claiming are turned down. Obviously, it is for local authorities to decide how to carve up the pot, but if so many people are being turned down, the local authority probably should look again at whether is has the balance right.
Steve Webb
As I have got only a few minutes, I am sure the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not giving way.
My hon. Friend asked what happens in a crisis and whose responsibility it is. In general, if it has been agreed that somebody is entitled to a DWP benefit, but they have not yet got the money, they can get an advance payment of benefit. That is a matter for the DWP. If a person has applied to us and there has been a bureaucratic problem at our end, that is a matter for us, but financial crises per se are a matter for the local authority; that is the split. If a person has an issue with DWP, we expect them to go to DWP, but people have financial crises for a whole raft of reasons.
My hon. Friend asked about the position in 2015-16. DWP receives funding from the Treasury, which it allocates in full to local authorities for local welfare provision for 2013-14 and 2014-15. The intention was always that, post 2015-16, it would be one of the things that fell within local authority responsibilities funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government. As non-ring-fenced activity, there is no separate sum in the total local government settlement for that item, but the local government settlement for 2015-16 was set in the knowledge that this matter is a responsibility of local government. It is fair to say that local government gets significant sums for people in need. For example, it receives £200 million for a troubled families initiative, and £3.8 billion for adult health and social care funding. Therefore, large sums of money go to local government for people in need, and it will have that responsibility from 2015-16. The issue that my hon. Friend raised is currently the subject of a judicial review. I hope the matter will be resolved before too long, but, as it is currently before the courts, I am constrained about saying any more about it.
Finally, my hon. Friend asked whether I think that the council got it right and whether that is how we expected money to be paid out. I hesitate to second-guess local authorities because the point of localism is to let them decide how best to use the money in the interests of their citizens. I share my hon. Friend’s concern about the amount of money in kind available—as he said, we are not talking about cash—and about the fact that in the past people would have been able to get significant help in a crisis. Money is going to other things that are worthy in their own right—nobody objects to funding a credit union or a carers group—but there is a risk, and local authorities that have had spending power transferred to them must look after people in crisis. Improved infrastructure and general financial capability are great, but people in crisis and those who come out of institutions need provision. Every local authority, including my hon. Friend’s, must meet those urgent, immediate needs, not only their wider strategic goals. I hope that response helps my hon. Friend.
Outdoor Sport and Recreation
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
It is good to be under your stewardship this afternoon, Mrs Main, for this debate. It is wonderful to see so many people turning out for it. There has been a great deal of interest in the topic of Government policy on sport, outdoor activities and recreation. It is really good to see that so many Members want to speak, so I will keep my remarks fairly short, although given the nature of what I will say, they will be slightly rambling. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Sorry—that is my only joke of the afternoon.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Indeed.
I am an absolute evangelist for the great outdoors, which may come as a bit of a surprise because earlier in my career I was a sports facility and arts facility manager. My job then was to encourage people to come indoors, into sports centres, to get the gym mats out, do the aerobics sessions, get into the gym itself and so on; I was bringing people indoors. However, the greatest free gym that we have is when we step outside of our homes; we do not even need to get in a car. It is what we do when we step out into London or elsewhere, leaving our homes and turning left or right, before going up into the hills, as I am fortunate enough to be able to do when I walk out into the uplands of south Wales.
The great outdoors is a tremendous asset and I guess that my argument today is that we parliamentarians, the Government and the organisations that are involved with the great outdoors—of which there are many—all need to do our utmost to encourage people to get out there, because of the wide range of benefits of going outdoors. There are definitely health benefits, not only physical health benefits but benefits for people’s mental well-being. Encouraging people to go outdoors can also help to drive activities such as GP exercise on prescription, or GP referrals as they are sometimes called. Such methods are not appropriate for every individual who sits in front of a GP, but increasingly the evidence shows that a very good prescription for many people, whether they have mental health issues or physical health issues, is to do what they can within their abilities to go out and walk or cycle, and enjoy the great outdoors beyond them.
I really am an evangelist for this: in fact, I am a walking testament to it. As I said, early in my career I was in sports facility management, but later I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, which for many people is a severe condition that will progressively get worse, eventually confining them to very restricted mobility, and so on. Yet the fact is that I simply walk out from my house on a Sunday afternoon, stretch my legs, go with the children and the rest of my family in my immediate neighbourhood; I cycle to work, even though it is only five minutes back and forth; and occasionally I go and do what I love, which is to get away from this place and get into the wide open spaces. That is the gospel I want to sing to a lot of people, and in a moment I will give some examples of where these recreational activities are happening and talk about areas where we can perhaps do more.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Member on securing an important debate. I, too, am a very enthusiastic walker and I noticed the way he was going when he talked about a “rambling” speech and being a “walking testament”; I could see the direction he is taking.
About a year ago, I secured a debate on childhood obesity. This approach—getting people outdoors—is the biggest way to combat childhood obesity in our times. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we, as a society, and the Government need to address that issue for the sake of this and future generations?
Huw Irranca-Davies
I entirely agree, and perhaps the most cost-effective way that we can do that is through a coherent strategy, involving the Welsh Government, the UK Government, the Northern Ireland Assembly and so on, that makes use of this great asset that we have literally outside our doors.
Such a strategy could certainly have a major effect on combating childhood obesity. Studies that have come out only this year, building on studies going back to the 1960s, show that if someone gets out of their car and walks or cycles to work, it has a major impact on their mortality, their length of life and their likelihood of developing serious medical conditions later in life. It is as clear as day now; there is no scientific argument about it. So let us make sure that we have such a strategy, which percolates from the national level right down to the local level, and into the voluntary sector as well; we should use the groups that are already in place to get people up and going.
Mr Sheerman
I agree with everything that my hon. Friend has said so far. I made a jibe about his being Welsh, but he knows that I started out as a Welsh politician in his very own village of Gowerton, and he knows that my father also suffered from ankylosing spondylitis.
Will my hon. Friend concentrate a little bit of his speech on the importance of getting children into the countryside? He knows that I am the chairman of the John Clare Trust, which has a campaign, Every Child’s Right to the Countryside. In this country, 35% to 40% of kids do not see the countryside at all, and if they do see it, they only see it on a school trip. So please let us do something to get schoolchildren into the countryside.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Interventions should be quite short. They are becoming mini-speeches.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Thank you, Mrs Main.
My hon. Friend is right, and the John Clare Trust and so many other organisations do such good work. When I was an Environment Minister, one of the most inspiring projects that I saw in the national parks was the Mosaic programme, which dealt not only with children but with people from different ethnic backgrounds—people who typically did not go out, and felt that there was some sort of psycho-perceptual barrier that stopped them going out into the countryside—and encouraged them to go out. Then what we saw was the intra-generational effect of children taking their parents and grandparents into the great outdoors.
I am focusing on strolling, but I have enjoyed some of the most adrenaline-filled times in my life outdoors, including hanging by my fingertips from cliffs in north-west Wales, which was scary and exhilarating at the same time. I have broken bones on mountain bike paths; I do not do that anymore, as I am getting on now and have a more sedate approach. I have thrown myself off the cliffs in west Wales and swung from them, while coasteering, which is a tremendous activity. And I have swum in the sea off west Wales, through waters full of jellyfish, bottlenose dolphins and so on, which was absolutely phenomenal.
Such activity is an education as well as being good for people’s health, and it is good for the economy. Locally, we have some amazing initiatives along that line. We have a striders group—the Ogmore Valley Striders. What does it do? It works with existing groups on the ground that bring together older people—third-age people—and it says to them, “Come out. Let’s do some mild walking along the cycle paths that we have. Then maybe one day, we’ll go a bit higher,” and so on. I now see people from those groups sitting in the café halfway up that cycle path, and there will be 20 of them together. They are also spending money in that café, while they have a sit-down and a chat, before they go out and get the health benefits of walking as well.
We also have the Love 2 Walk festival. Labour-run Bridgend county borough council supports it every year, and it is growing every year, with a long list of places for people to go and walk to, ranging from easy walks to very challenging and rigorous walks in the south Wales valleys. Recently, we have had an Elvis walk in Porthcawl, which broke the record for the number of Elvises walking along the all-Wales coastal path—who can say more than that?
Huw Irranca-Davies
However, there is not only walking. I pay tribute to the work that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) does in this area with several all-party groups, including an event that he pulled together in June last year where a range of organisations came together, which deal with canoeing, mountaineering, open access, open spaces, national parks, walking in London and other cities—all of that activity. Out of that event came a very good piece of work called “Reconomics”, which pulled together in a comprehensive way all the data—a mountain of data—that show just how beneficial outdoor recreation is; not just walking, but all the types of outdoor recreation. It showed that outdoor recreation is the UK’s favourite pastime, with all these diverse activities from potholing to caving, to simply strolling outside or going on a bike with the family.
Interestingly, women are just as likely as men to take part in outdoor recreation. As a former sports facility manager, I can tell hon. Members that, in terms of women’s participation in sports centres, we still have to break down some of the barriers to people doing indoors activities. We work hard on that. Outdoors, there is no differentiation; people do outdoor activities regardless of gender, and that is great.
More female than male staff are employed in outdoor activities. How many sectors can say that? Some 55% of employees in outdoor recreation and sport are women, not men. That is a great thing to celebrate. I know from my background that the industry employees a higher proportion of young people aged 16 to 24, giving them great opportunities.
Let us go for the hard cash and the hard sell. We see time and again, as reports come out, just how much this does for local economies and the national economy. The “Reconomics” report said that walking tourism alone was estimated to generate up to £2.76 billion for the English economy; that is quite staggering.
Let me turn for a moment to Wales and go back home to the Wales coast path—the first, the landmark and ground-breaking all-Wales coastal path. In its first 12 months, up to September 2013, the path generated 2.82 million visits and added £32 million to Wales’s economy. Some 94% of those visitors were walking for leisure, with around 40% of them visiting the path as part of a longer holiday. The impact of the path on the local economy helped 5,400 tourism-related businesses and led to an extra 120, and more, jobs created within 2 km of the route. I can see this for myself in my own area. Going down to the Glamorgan heritage coast, a tremendous piece of coastline—around Southerndown and so on—people will see the new businesses springing up. I particularly recommend the Barn at West Farm, just outside Southerndown, which is a fantastic place to stop when on a walk, have a nice coffee and listen to the guitar music being played—and on you go then.
The coast path has led to exposure for Wales on the BBC and ITV, in The New York Times and USA Today, and on Fox News, because it is an all-country, all-nation coastal path. People can hit the coast in Wales and turn left or right without stopping; it is phenomenal. The Wales coast path was included as one of the nominees in VirtualTourist’s campaign to find the “8th Wonder of the World”, alongside spots such as Yellowstone national park in the United States of America. National Geographic magazine named the Pembrokeshire coast section of the path in its top 10 places in the world to visit. In Lonely Planet’s 2012 “Best in Travel” guide, the Wales coast path was voted the greatest region on earth.
It is brilliant that recently, within the past few days, we have heard that the England coastal path will now be delivered by 2020. We were previously lacking a timetable for that. As the Minister who took the Marine and Coastal Access Bill through Committee, I can say that we were a little bit worried that the path was going to get kicked into the long grass, but it has now been said that there will be an all-England coastal path by 2020. People will be able to walk from the top north-east of England, all the way round England, through Wales, all around the coastal path, and right up the other side, then they can carry on up into Scotland, as part of a Great Britain walk.
Mr Sheerman
I am being carried away with nostalgia as my hon. Friend talks about coastal paths in Wales and elsewhere, but we in Yorkshire—in Huddersfield—have wonderful countryside, although we are bit far from the coastline. In terms of his Clare Balding tours, will he think about coming to Huddersfield and Yorkshire for wonderful walks with us, too?
Huw Irranca-Davies
Definitely. I would love to visit and walk there with my hon. Friend and, as time allows, visit the whole of these paths. Of course, I am only talking about coastal paths; we now have a long distance trails network in the UK, which is tremendous. Two years ago, I walked with my whole family, carrying rucksacks, along the Hadrian’s Wall path in seven days. It was brilliant. What an experience. We need to encourage more of this.
The hon. Member for Macclesfield held a brilliant reception at which a six-point strategy was launched, and it is not just to do with walking. Organisations including the Wild Network, the Sport and Recreational Alliance, the Youth Hostel Association—I am a member of that association, so my apologies because I should have declared that at the outset; I am also vice-president of Ramblers Cymru and president of the Glamorgan Area Ramblers—Living Streets, Putting People First, the British Mountaineering Council, Britain on Foot, Ramblers GB, the Open Spaces Society, the Campaign for National Parks and the English Outdoor Council were pulled together.
Those organisations are asking the Minister for six things that I will mention in headlines, because I am sure that other hon. Members will speak to them in detail. They would like cross-government support for a long-term strategy on outdoor recreation and improvement of access to coast and countryside, because of the challenges for local authorities in maintaining simple rights of access that allow people to get up on to the high hills or to long-distance paths. We need to find a way to keep those routes open for cyclists and people on horseback and on bikes, and so on.
Those organisations want to increase opportunities for young people to get outside—mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman)—because young people will drag their whole families and the generations with them. They want to maximise the economic contribution of outdoor recreation. Some people pooh-poohed the idea that the England coastal path would provide economic benefits, but the evidence from Wales is that it certainly will; businesses will shoot up along that path and make the most of it.
Those organisations want to strengthen planning guidance and protect the outdoors. We know about the pressures and that we have to ensure that this is a living countryside, but we also need to make sure that what people go to the countryside to enjoy is still there as well; getting that balance right is critical.
The sixth ask is for better public transport in rural areas, for a number of reasons, and not only for cross-modular approaches to transport so that people can get to where they want to go. For example, people might want to do the Taff trail on their bike, so on a Sunday they go on a bus that will drop them in Brecon and then they can cycle all the way back to Cardiff. However, it is not just about that. Study after study is now showing that better public transport in rural areas—in Wales, England and everywhere else—encourages people to walk more. They take the bus and then walk and stroll, and the pounds fall off and they feel better in themselves, and so on.
That is all I am going to say, because so many hon. Members want to contribute. I welcome the chance to have this debate. This is far from being an attack on the Government; this is positive and encouraging. Let us do our utmost to make the most of our country’s great outdoors. We are a beautiful island nation and sometimes we forget it too easily. Let us get out there and use it a heck of a lot more.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. Having lived in St Albans, I know that there are some wonderful walks around the city and elsewhere in Hertfordshire.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies)—my hon. Friend—on securing this debate and making a terrific speech, with real enthusiasm and a clear sense of purpose and direction. It was clearly grounded in his experience in the world of work before coming to the House and as a Minister. I congratulate him on what he said and agree with just about all of it, except for his comment that Pembrokeshire and that part of the world is the best, when, clearly, other hon. Members would feel that Yorkshire or Cheshire, or other parts of the country, were better. But there we go.
David Rutley
Kent, I hear, too. However, we will see. Hon. Members will have their chance to make those points in due course.
I declare an interest up front, as the co-chair of the all-party group on mountaineering. I refer hon. Members to the register of all-party groups. I am also a vice-chair of the all-party group on mountain rescue and a secretary of the all-party group on national parks. Most importantly, I am the Member of Parliament for Macclesfield, one of the great constituencies of this country. It is a beautiful constituency where the Cheshire peak comes together with the Peak district. It is well worth a visit, and I encourage everybody to come along.
I thank the Sports Minister for attending. She is passionate about sport, having been a prolific sportsperson herself in the past, and appreciates the importance of outdoor activities. We were fortunate enough to meet Andrew Denton, the chairman of the Outdoor Industries Association, to talk about many of the things we are discussing today. I hope that, given that enthusiasm, at a future meeting the Minister will change her title from Minister for Sport to Minister for Sport and Outdoor Activities. That would only be appropriate.
Positive progress has been made in recent weeks and months. The creation of the England coast path is a major step forward and positive development and there is a clear timetable to make that happen. I am delighted that that is moving forward; it is a key element of the six key proposals that have been put together by the outdoor organisations, which the hon. Member for Ogmore has already discussed. Furthermore, it is good news for walkers across the country and for climbers.
I know that representatives from the British Mountaineering Council are here. It is important to recognise that the spreading room—the margin between the path and the sea itself—is vital for outdoor activities and, in particular, climbers. The important thing for the communities on that route is that footfall will increase, which will help boost the rural economy in those areas. The key ask today is for an overarching strategy for the outdoors—a sense of direction and a clear plan of action, co-ordinated by a body that can not only fine-tune the shaping of that, but go out and work with the Minister and Sport England to deliver it. There are many other things that we will talk about today, but that is the key ask.
I will put things into context, because the issues we are discussing are vital for our nation and critical for the rural economy in several ways. First, on participation, the Olympic legacy is absolutely critical to this country, and there is more we can do—perhaps in ways that the originators of the Olympic bid did not envisage. There are other ways of getting people to be physically active. We have to tackle physical inactivity; it is putting pressure on our health services and threatens the health of multiple generations. Secondly, as we have already said, there is the importance of tourism, particularly to these rural areas.
I am co-chairman of the all-party group on mountaineering, and we have been working hard with a wide range of MPs and, for that matter, peers in taking the agenda forward. As we look for how to bring about greater success, it is important to reflect on the success that cycling has seen in recent years. It has been an incredibly well articulated campaign that has engaged the public, not just with the elite sport itself, but with mass participation.
I saw that this Sunday at the Bollington BikeFest. Some 300 people turned up to do cycling events, which ranged in length from 20 miles to 75 miles. It was organised by Macclesfield Lions club. We have to build on the success of cycling, because organised sport, as far as I can see, is only one element of the equation, and we have to go beyond that. The focus should not just be on sports, but on a much wider range of outdoor activities. As the hon. Member for Ogmore said, it is often easier and cheaper to participate in outdoor activities, so we should promote them. Walking is a great example. In east Cheshire, our ramblers group has 700 members, and we can do even better in building that membership base.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
First, I apologise to you, Mrs Main, for being late; I forgot that the debate was in this Committee Room. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on his work on the APPG, of which I am proud to be an active member. Does he share my concern about how the participation figures are calculated by Sport England? That has a big effect on funding. We know that there are thousands and thousands of people out walking, yet that is not reflected in the figures or the funding.
David Rutley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have to capture robustly the activity levels that are already there and then build on that success. It is clear that more people are getting involved. The increases in outdoor activities are far greater than in other organised sports. Let us capture that and then get what funding we need—we do not need the same as many organised sports—to help move things forward.
I recognise the great work that my hon. Friend has done, notably in highlighting some of the well-being issues involved in outdoor activities, not least his work with veterans groups in the sponsored event that went up Cotopaxi earlier this year. Other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), went too. That set a high standard. She did a fantastic job, and I hope we will hear more about that later.
There is growing evidence that more has to be done. A Government-sponsored paper, “Moving More, Living More”, sets out that the costs associated with inactivity in the UK are some £20 billion. It is clear that those involved in a lot of physical activity reduce their risk of dying early by 30%. It is astounding that 30% of the UK population are physically inactive, compared with 8% in the Scandinavian countries. Quite simply, something more needs to be done.
This is a clear spur and a clear call of action for Public Health England, our local health and wellbeing boards across the country and all public bodies. We have to wake up and take clear action to ensure that we move the agenda further forward. Let us not try to reinvent the wheel and come up with fancy options. It is straightforward—walking works and many of these outdoor pursuits work; we just have to get more people active outdoors.
We have already heard about the important report “Reconomics”, which is being taken forward by the Sport and Recreation Alliance. Figures have already been put forward, but one thing that amazed me was that the visitor spend associated with outdoor activities is £21 billion across the nation. That is a huge opportunity and more can follow, if we get it right. One tremendous quote from that incredible report states that the outdoors are
“a vast blue and green gym with no membership fee, and a sporting arena like no other.”
How true!
Locally in Macclesfield, as in Ogmore and other parts of the country, we are seeing such events as the Bollington walking festival move forward and countless fell races. I was able to survive the Wincle Trout race last year. We have the “Walkers are Welcome” scheme and other initiatives, and with all these things, people are seeing that we need to move further forward.
In the Peak district, they are taking forward fantastic activity in promoting cycling. Quite simply, the ambition is clear. We want a step change in participation in physical activity. We want to take 1 million-plus people out of physical inactivity so that lives can be saved. We want to see a real boost to the rural economy, too.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
There is absolutely a desire to create more trail, walkways and bridleways. In my area of north Lincolnshire, our local council is investing millions in the River Ancholme trail, the Isle of Axholme greenway and the Crowle to Gunness cycleway, among many other schemes.
One problem we have in trying to open up such trails is land ownership. There are supportive landowners who see the benefit to the economy and the population generally, but others, unfortunately—generally those who own the land in the middle of the trail—are not quite so supportive—
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I think the speaker, who has a limited amount of time, has got the point you were making, Mr Percy. A lot of Members wish to speak.
David Rutley
I thank my hon. Friend; I know that he is keen and passionate about these issues. Access can be a challenge, but the way to deal with such things—we saw evidence of this with the Deregulation Bill—is through collaborative coalition building among landowners, ramblers and other outdoor organisations and local councils putting forward the case positively and providing the right levels of support.
Progress is being made, and it is not just the English coast path that is going forward. It is good to see No. 10, as well as the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department of Health, getting behind the great outdoors campaign. Recently, my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) and I were able to welcome the Minister responsible for public health, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), to the Goyt valley, in the wonderful constituency of High Peak but close to the border with Macclesfield. We were able to walk and talk. We discussed the importance of getting people out from their community and into the countryside. As we arrived at the trig point at the summit of Shining Tor, we met a huge church group out for a walk. With their actions, they were making the point that we have been trying to make in words. It was a memorable summit meeting.
We are looking to build on the work done so far by building awareness through parliamentary away days in the hills and through working with such outdoor legends as Alan Hinkes and Sir Chris Bonington. We should ensure that we build on the great campaign we launched last year, “Britain on Foot”. Its aim is to help more people get off the sofa and get outdoors.
Given what happened with cycling, what was coming ahead with the general election and the need to get all parties involved in this debate, 10 leading outdoor organisations came together to create six key proposals for Government action on the outdoors, which have already been referenced. That coalition was, in itself, a landmark activity, and a wide range of interests are represented within it. The fact that those organisations have come together highlights the need for change and action, and I hope that that agenda is taken seriously. I am sure that Opposition Members are busy getting those proposals to their manifesto-creating groups. I am doing the same with other Members here in the Conservative party. However, seeing this agenda shaping up and getting so much support from so many different outdoor organisations is a landmark.
We can learn from other countries that are doing a good job, such as the United States and its work with its national parks. There is a Cabinet-ranking Secretary of the Interior whose job it is to ensure that the agenda is furthered. The Scandinavians have also clearly done a fantastic job in improving physical activity levels. Within the United Kingdom, Scotland and Northern Ireland already have clearly articulated outdoor strategies, so we are asking today that the Minister consider creating a strategy for the outdoors for the entire United Kingdom. We also hope that, following Thursday’s referendum, it will continue to include Scotland for many years to come.
Last year, we had an Adjournment debate, attended by many of the Members present today, that led to three small requests: to recognise outdoor activities; to meet outdoor organisations; and to support the “Britain on Foot” campaign. I am delighted that the then Sports Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Sir Hugh Robertson), took that agenda seriously and that all those things have been achieved.
Now, we are asking for just six things and have a much clearer agenda of what we want to accomplish. I hope that we will see the same impact and enthusiasm from this Minister and others to move the process forward. I will not go through all six points as time is limited with others wanting to speak, but they are clear and set out a long-term strategy and a clear economic contribution. The point about access, inclusion and getting young people involved is key, but this is cross-generational and young and old alike should be considered.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
I have come to this debate because I am deeply worried about a specific matter. Although people should be outside enjoying the countryside and the fresh air, more than 600 people have been hurt or worse by cattle. Does my hon. Friend agree that until we get a proper understanding of how to handle access and farming of large, potentially dangerous animals, ramblers will continue to be hurt? We need to do something about that and cannot pretend, as ramblers have done to date, that it is not a problem.
David Rutley
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Public safety is paramount. We must educate about the benefits and the associate risks, but that is what makes opportunities in the outdoors so exciting. It is that mix of learning and new experiences while also being aware of the risks and working out how to deal with them. My hon. Friend makes an important point that I am sure will be noted by the outdoors organisations represented here.
In conclusion, the debate has been positive. On a day when many minds are concerned with the state of our Union and with conflicts in other parts of the world, it is tremendous to see so many people here to take this agenda further forward. I know that the Minister is a keen walker and has been to Cumbria, so I ask her to reflect on the amazing, stunning views from the tops of Blencathra and Skiddaw. They are worth the climb and the hard work, and the same is true for promoting the activities that we are discussing today. I hope that the Minister agrees that it is time to get more people moving outdoors.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I will call the wind-ups at 20 minutes to 4, so each speaker has around six minutes if there are not too many interventions.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing a debate on this important subject today.
In 2012, London successfully hosted the Olympic games and Glasgow successfully hosted the Commonwealth games this summer. I was in Glasgow for a week and have to say that the fans in places such as Hampden Park were not partisan. It was good to see crowds, containing many Scottish people, cheering on athletes from all the home countries, which says something about sport as a unifying force for the Union. Those events helped to showcase a great variety of outdoor sports. This summer, Yorkshire proudly hosted the Grand Départ of the Tour de France, and the success of that event provided a boost to the sport of cycling. We can take pride in recent successes, but we must also explore new ways to encourage people to participate in sport throughout the UK.
I am co-chair of the all-party group on women’s sport and fitness and want to talk about the issues and the barriers to the participation of girls and women in sport, to which my hon. Friend has already referred. Last week, along with other Members present, I went to an event in Parliament on women and girls in rugby. The event also celebrated the success of the England women’s team in winning the International Rugby Board world cup. It was wonderful to talk to some members of the team, who are still elated at their victory. Their win was even more remarkable given that the women held down various jobs, including plumbing, working for a vet, lifeguarding and teaching, at the same time as training for their national team. A squad of 20 of the women’s team have now been put on professional contracts in the run-up to the rugby sevens at the Rio Olympics. The women told us that the contracts will mean that they can train each day and have some rest and recovery time between training sessions and matches. At Rio, the teams they will be competing against have been training and playing full-time for a year or more. I wish the team well, because they are remarkable role models.
The situation of our elite women athletes still having to hold down jobs while trying to train to the highest level that they can achieve is not always well understood. The recent inquiry by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport into women in sport highlighted that as one of the problems that have remained since the Olympics. At the elite level, women’s sport gains much less sponsorship and media coverage, and the pay and prize money is lower. A report published this year by the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation found that women’s sport accounts for less than 0.5% of all commercial investment and only 7% of sports media coverage. When women are not paid for their achievements in sport, it is extremely difficult to encourage girls and young women to aspire to a career as an athlete.
The other issue, perhaps of more relevance to today’s debate, highlighted by the Select Committee inquiry was that women’s participation in grass-roots sport is still much lower than men’s. The most recent figures from the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation show that only just over 30% of women in England aged 16-plus take part in sport or fitness once a week, compared with over 40% of men, which is a difference of 2 million. Worryingly, in my local authority area of Salford the gap is even greater with 39% of men participating in weekly sporting activity but only 24% of women. I find that really concerning. Members have already discussed the health benefits of activity, and I am impressed by the range of activities that hon. Members take part in, although I must say that mine is limited to running. It is concerning that 76% of women in Salford are not active at such a level.
Research by the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation found that 12 million women wanted to play more sport, half of whom were inactive at the time of the survey. The participation gap persists because of practical, personal and social barriers for women and girls. The Government, together with the sport sector, local communities and the media, must do more work on removing the gap. We must ensure that any Government policy on outdoor sport and recreation helps to address the barriers that currently prevent girls and women from participating in sporting and other physical activities.
While the overall gender gap in participation is of great concern, the lack of growth in participation rates among young women aged 16 to 25 is also worrying. It is clear from many surveys and reports that young girls see sport as not for them. That perception often stems from negative experiences with PE and sport at school, which is a point that is supported by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s report. A survey carried out by the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation found that 51% of girls were deterred from physical activity by their experiences of school sport and PE. Many girls described it negatively, citing a lack of choice, overly competitive environments, a lack of confidence in their ability and a concern about body image. Changing young girls’ perceptions of sport and being active is essential if we want them to take up sport at school and get the health benefits. As has already been discussed, we should be concerned that girls and young people more generally are not taking up sport and activity at a young age. Government should do more to ensure that pupils are given the opportunity to participate from a young age in a wide range of sports and activities—wider than they are currently—to try to suit all interests.
There is an issue with funding. In the United States there is gender balance in sports funding due to title IX legislation, which requires schools and other bodies receiving public funding to ensure that expenditure on sport benefits boys and girls equally. Since this legislation was passed, the number of girls participating in secondary school athletics in the US has gone from 7% to 41%. I argue that we should adopt similar legislation, because I feel that change here will be minor until there is more equality in funding.
We must consider how we can inspire women to participate in sport throughout their lives. If we look at the figures, it is interesting that many of the sports that are most popular with women are done informally, such as running and swimming, and are therefore outside the formal funding structures. Women take part in running events such as Race for Life and will train up to run 5 km or 10 km, but then, sadly, not enough people persist in taking part in the activity after the event is completed. I did the Salford 10 km last Sunday. There were 3,500 participants. Very impressively, 1,500 were women and 2,000 were men. That is a very good balance, as we tend to see more men than women jogging on the street.
Some good work has been done by sports organisations to encourage more women to participate. Since 2008, British Cycling has led a highly successful campaign to get more women cycling. It wants to inspire 1 million more women to ride, to race and to be part of British cycling by 2020. In the first five years of its campaign, it has achieved significant gains, because it has given guidance on routes, which is important when people are starting, and on safety. It has also created clubs to introduce young people to cycling. That type of guidance and support is vital. I commend British Cycling on its campaign. I look forward to seeing and hearing more progress on that in the future. Given the facts I have touched on, Government and other sports organisations must do more to ensure there is a similar push to help increase women’s participation in other sports and fitness activities.
These campaigns will not work unless we tackle issues such as the funding imbalance, which I touched on, and the lack of coverage of women’s sport. Hon. Members have talked about people getting involved in the outdoors, particularly women. If women are taking part in activities in informal ways, but not in sport, then we have to change the perception that sport is the preserve of men. I am afraid it is not surprising that girls and young women see things that way while elite male sports take up the vast majority of media coverage, sponsorship and funding. To ensure outdoor sports and all sports thrive, we must push for women’s sport to be more adequately represented in the media and to be better funded.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
I start by drawing Members’ attention to my declaration in the register. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies): his enthusiasm for this topic, and for Wales and everything it has to offer, is contagious. It is great to debate this topic—in this Chamber at any rate—as it joins so many people together in a common cause.
Much as I am delighted to see the Minister in her place, this debate could have been answered by the Department of Health, the Department for Education, the Treasury or a number of other Departments. Each has a real interest in this, both economic and social. I hope the Minister will acknowledge that this subject is inter-departmental. Every Department should look at this as an opportunity to improve its performance, rather than as something it needs to acknowledge in a token fashion.
I will concentrate on the benefits of outdoor education and learning for children in particular. It worries me that only 10% of children ever get to play outside these days, whereas 40% of their parents used to. One in three of our kids have never climbed a tree; one in 10 have never ridden a bike; remarkably, 42%—including me—have never made a daisy chain. That may seem an irrelevant contribution, but it demonstrates that we are talking about not just fitness, but culture, heritage and opening the eyes of people who might not have a daily opportunity to have their eyes opened to the extraordinary enrichment to their lives that just a few short hours out in the open air and the countryside provide.
A few Members might read that great magazine Country Life. A wide-ranging survey it carried out—a few years ago now, it must be said—asked questions of a number of schoolchildren aged between about six and 12. In answer to the question, “Why is it important to close gates when you go into the countryside?”, a worryingly large number replied, “To keep the elephants in.” When asked a question about what the greatest advantage was about living in rural areas, the answer came back, “Because there aren’t so many coppers.” This should demonstrate to us that, despite all the progress that has been made, there is still an awful lot we need to do to normalise life outside our urban areas.
Other Members have touched on the health benefits of outdoor activity. I like statistics, but it is still a very worrying situation that 28% of children are obese or suffer from obesity at some stage in their early years. That is partly because of the relatively small number who do one hour of vigorous exercise a day. That is all that is needed: one hour of vigorous exercise a day.
A number of excellent organisations have been mentioned so far. I will touch on the work of the Field Studies Council, not necessarily because it is better than other organisations, but simply because I learned an important lesson when I visited its centre in Stackpole in my constituency. It demonstrated to me something that I had not registered before. One of the values of outdoor learning to a lot of the children and young adults who go to that institution is that it teaches them that they can be good at something. If they do not function or perform to their best ability in a traditional classroom situation, there is often something they can do out there on a beach, in a forest or whatever it might be that they can suddenly excel at. When they discover there is something they can excel at outside, it is remarkable how they discover they can excel at things inside as well.
One of the things the Field Studies Council at Stackpole told me was that part of the problem was the attitude of the teachers who go with these kids. The teachers arrive on a Sunday night with no mobile phone reception, wondering what they are doing down there, wishing they were back at home, arms folded, slightly inclined to think, “Good luck. I haven’t been able to do anything with these kids, so I don’t suppose you will either.” At the end of one week at one of these institutions, they are already booking their trip for next year because they have seen, in such a short space of time, an absolute transformation in the self-confidence and ability of children who, to some extent, they had written off as failures in the classroom. Suddenly, someone who was good at identifying stars, or who learned about seashells or something like that went back to school and their performance in English, maths or history improved as a consequence. That is why I said that a Minister from the Department for Education could just as easily be sat on the Front Bench for this debate, soaking up the benefits for that Department that this kind of activity offers.
We of course hear about obstacles that present themselves; I am afraid that some of them are genuine. There is always some health and safety excuse for not doing these things: we hear long lists of reasons why “we can’t”, or “we won’t”. That is not very helpful either. There has been some progress by the Government—probably not enough—to sweep away what are, in some cases, completely unreasonable and impractical health and safety considerations that get in the way of these projects.
That is as much as I want to say. There are a few activities out there in the countryside that other Members will touch on that have social, economic and ecological benefits that are free to the taxpayer. When it comes to the departmental response—whether it is this Department or others—I hope Ministers will look at outdoor activity and recreation not as a cost but as an investment in the future health and happiness of young people in particular.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
September is the month of fruit, foraging and field sports. As someone who represents the most rural and sparsely populated constituency in the country, I welcome the debate initiated by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and I briefly put forward everything from Kielder forest, Northumberland national park, Hadrian’s wall, the coast-to-coast cycleway, the Pennine way, the various other cycleways, the Haltwhistle walking festival and the wild heather moorlands. I could eulogise for ever—and that is just a small part of my constituency. I could mention the 50 angling groups that fish the Tyne, the red squirrels that have sanctuaries throughout Northumberland and all the individuals who make such a difference. We have not mentioned the organisations that support the rural way of life, such as Country Life, The Field, or the Moorland Association, but they should be supported in the House.
I cannot stress enough the economic impact, eloquently set out by the hon. Member for Ogmore, that country life makes. In my constituency, we have the best cycling, fishing, shooting and hiking in the country, and three of those activities provide the rural economy with hundreds of jobs, while shooting brings thousands. It is impossible for people living in southern Northumberland or north Durham, or the Tynedale and Weardale valleys, to survive without the thousands of jobs that the relevant organisations bring.
I want briefly to focus on fishing. There are more than 50 angling clubs, and the Tyne is probably the most successful salmon fishing river in the country at present. It is a matter of concern that the Environment Agency has authorised north-east coastal net fishery licences. In the past year, 56,000 fish were taken off the coast of the Tyne, and that is having a massive effect on the angling industry and support for fishermen. I urge the Minister to take that point up with the appropriate Environment Minister. I am grateful to the Northern Farmers and Landowners Group for making me aware of the problems.
Shooting is a sport that brings in £2 billion to the British economy. Anyone in doubt about it should read the excellent research of Public and Corporate Economic Consultants, which put out a massive questionnaire in the past year that showed more than £2 billion a year going to the UK economy, with 74,000 full-time jobs. That should be supported.
I am a massive supporter of the work of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. For example, I very much support its campaign on lead shot. However, its chief executive was woefully wrong when he called for moorland regulation. I take issue with that and the rather surprising approach of Marks & Spencer, which decided not to stock grouse although it will happily stock farmed salmon, battery chickens and driven pheasants. That seems illogical and wrong. In reality, the people who look after our moorlands—the owners, keepers and people who work there—are the custodians of the countryside.
I welcome the new chief executive of Natural England and hope that his new broom will bring a change of approach. It is embarrassing that a Government quango such as Natural England has so little comprehension of the countryside and the way moorland is supported by its custodians.
The Sport and Recreation Alliance report that the hon. Member for Ogmore has referred to cites parts of Northumberland where one in five people are directly involved in outdoor sports. I disagree; the figure is more like one in every two or three. Without them, the rural economies of my area would wither and die. We all know that tourism is the sixth largest industry, and we welcome many people to south Northumberland to enjoy its pleasures. We need to make the case for what is an opportunity for the taxpayer, rather than a cost to the taxpayer, and we should support and encourage it.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
It is a pleasure as always to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this important debate. My interest in the outdoors and sport goes back to my childhood. I am part of the pre-console and pre-computer generation, who spent their entire time outside, playing in the fresh air. In fact, I had to be dragged back inside, most evenings, to do my homework or eat my tea.
I grew up in Hythe, near the Kent coast. On one side of the house, there was a canal that we constantly tried to cross using items from the garage. An area of hills called the Roughs was an adventure ground for us. It is also a military training site, so we spent most of our time picking up empty shells and wondering whether they were dangerous. We were close to the sea, and the entire estate where I lived was a huge playground. I learned to play football, cricket and American football. In fact, I was a happy, healthy tomboy.
The upside of being part of a pre-computer generation was that we were outside all the time. The downside was that many of the clubs and organisations that exist today to support youngsters did not exist when I was growing up. As many hon. Members know, I am the manager of a girls’ football team. I am proud to have been involved with Meridian girls football club for the past eight years. That kind of network of grass-roots support was not there when I was growing up, and we should be grateful for the important investment in sporting facilities that we now have. It is a fantastic legacy of the national lottery started under John Major’s Government and expanded under the Labour Government. It is important to protect such investment in sporting facilities.
The freedom of the outdoors lies not just in the fact that people can go out and explore their environment, but in the fact that it costs little to do so. I was interested in the comments of the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). She will know that I agree with much of what she said, not least because I serve on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, which produced the report on women in sport. However, women are as likely as men to take part in outdoor recreation. Getting out into the environment, exploring villages, paths and hills, is an activity accessible to everyone, and it should be encouraged.
I am proud to be a Kent girl, and now represent an area of Kent quite far from the coast but that has a wonderful river running through it. It borders the Minister’s constituency. We have an excellent pathway, which will be upgraded thanks to a recent South East local enterprise partnership decision. We will have a full cycle path from Aylesford to East Farleigh. That will be a brilliant opportunity for people to get out along the river and see the fantastic wildlife. We also have a project called Medway Valley of Visions, which has opened up the entire Kent area of outstanding natural beauty for people to walk or cycle in and experience the benefits of the outdoors.
We have an excellent ramblers association, with 115 members in my constituency, and they have invited me to go out on many occasions. Unfortunately, they go out on a Sunday when—guess what?—I am standing at the side of a football pitch with my young girls, so it is not always possible for me to accept. However, the North Downs way and Pilgrims way run through my constituency.
When I was in training for the expedition—one that has nearly killed me—that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) mentioned, in which I participated with the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), going up Cotopaxi, one of the world’s highest volcanoes, I got into training by just going out of my door and hill walking. Hill walking is very different from mountaineering, and I intend never to do the latter again, despite what I am sure will be the best efforts of my colleagues. I will stick to football, rather than mountaineering.
There are nevertheless many opportunities out there, and we must protect and invest in them. That is why I wanted to speak today. I was touched by the key proposals sent to us for Government action on the outdoors. I do not think that they are necessarily politically controversial. As someone who grew up outside, the idea of increasing young people’s opportunities to get outside seems to me a no-brainer. Being outdoors, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said, enables people to concentrate in class and gives them educational opportunities.
The hon. Member for Ogmore set out the six principles well, and I want to talk about planning. In my constituency, we have a planning application to build 500 houses over the Capstone valley. The valley is an area of outstanding natural beauty; it is a green lull between the Medway towns and Maidstone. It would be a desperate shame if we started to build on that and interfere with our wonderful outdoor environment, which serves our ramblers and conservationists, people who are interested in the wildlife and those who simply want to go for a run around the perimeter. We need to look at planning guidance to ensure that we protect areas that actually bring in an income through the fact that people are getting out there—tourists and people spending in the local economy—because they are using what is in essence a free asset for society.
I am sure that the Minister is aware of such issues. It is important that she takes a co-ordinated approach across central and local government. If we do not do something to protect things, the £91 million that the NHS spends every 24 hours on lifestyle-related chronic conditions will merely increase. The health and economic benefits are obvious. Not everyone wants to do sport—I get that. I want to do sports; I am a sports fanatic, but outdoor recreation is something that is open to everyone and something that they should have access to now and in future generations.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing the debate.
I am the Member of Parliament for High Peak, which, as I often say, is the most beautiful constituency in the country—that will be disputed, but I have not had an intervention yet—and the outdoors is what we do. I am a little older than my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), but I echo what she was saying. I grew up before computers and—
Andrew Bingham
Not quite before television. I might look that old, but I assure the Chamber that I am not. I was going to say that we were the “jumpers for goalposts” generation, when we were always outside, playing football in winter and cricket in the summer. I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) that I have indeed made a daisy chain as a small boy, but I will not embarrass the young lady I gave it to by naming her. We used to do so much outside, whether collecting frogspawn or climbing trees and things like that. Consequently, we were healthier for it. That is why the outdoors is so important.
High Peak is a beautiful area. In many respects, we can be the playground of the nation. I am lucky; I live in Chapel-en-le-Frith; I open my front door and I see hills and green fields. Custodians of such fields were mentioned earlier, and they are incredibly important. Fields and outdoor areas do not simply happen; we have to thank the custodians and the farmers for doing what they do. It is a huge playground that people can use and that is completely free. That is such a benefit.
Among the outdoors pursuits that take place in High Peak was the Tour de France, which touched my constituency recently, creating a huge increase in cycling, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley). On the subject of my hon. Friend, he accompanied me down a pothole in my constituency recently. I proceeded to get stuck briefly, but having lost a bit of weight, I am sure that we could go down again and I will slither easily through that tight gap. Potholing and caving also bring huge numbers of people into High Peak. They come to High Peak; they spend their money; they benefit the economy; and more than that, they benefit themselves. Anyone who takes part in outdoor pursuits is the main beneficiary, because of the health that they bring.
Two weeks ago, I undertook to hike around the boundary of my constituency, which is approximately 65 miles, which I did over a few days. The highest point that we got to was about 1,700 feet above sea level; the highest point in my constituency is Kinder Scout at 2,088 feet, so we were not quite at that height. We crossed the Pennine way, which my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) walked last year or the year before. The scenery and the fresh air are so good for people, but they also bring them to my constituency. I go to areas such as Castleton and the Hope valley in the summer and everywhere there are people with maps around their necks, the big boots and what I call the speckly socks, all coming to the Peak district and High Peak to get exercise. That is the important thing.
We hear so much on the health agenda about obesity, particularly among young people. I understand the attractions of Facebook and various computer games, but we need to encourage people to get out and about. We live in a beautiful country, so let us use it and get the benefit. As I said, when doing so, we are also benefiting our local economies. We all talk about deprivation in the inner cities and so on, but I prefer to talk about rural deprivation. As a result of the remoteness, we have to suffer certain things, such as not getting the same number of buses and so on, but we have that fantastic facility on our doorsteps. We should use it to get people back to exercising. The hon. Member for Ogmore mentioned exercise through prescription by doctors and, when I served on the local authority, we used to advocate that where we could. The Government should look at the health benefits.
As has already been said, the debate could have been held under the heading of health, education or the Treasury, but we are having it under sport. There are so many benefits. I am conscious that we are running out of time, so I will not go on too long, but the benefits are immeasurable and the people who benefit the most are those who take part. As Members of Parliament representing seats that all have the benefits of outdoor pursuits, we can encourage people to take part in them.
As I said, my walk last week took me four or five days and touched most parts of my constituency. The interesting thing was the difference in the scenery and the terrain, whether the steep hills coming up over the Snake pass and down into Glossop or the valley of the Goyt. Everywhere we looked was a photograph in the making. As others have said, the air was clear and the weather was reasonably good, which was quite helpful, because we can get a little rain in High Peak. The benefits were immeasurable, and we should try to share them with as many people as possible. The Government should do what they can to encourage people to use what I described before as the playground that we live in. It is there; it is healthy; it is beneficial; and it is free. No one can be excluded from using it; we need only encourage them to do so.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I reiterate my congratulations to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on his excellent speech, which framed the debate. I want to add my thoughts. Part of what we need to do and what we are trying to achieve is to bring everything together. There are such wonderful initiatives going on and I, too, have wonderful areas in my beautiful constituency. The Leeds country way, the Meanwood valley trail and the Ebor way all run through my constituency. I have bouldering on the Chevin and walking in Golden Acre park or Woodhouse ridge in the south.
We must not forget about urban walking, and I tabled an early-day motion in support of Living Streets national walking month, including the walk to school week and the walk to work week—important initiatives. I also support the Britain on Foot initiative, which I am sure has had a huge impact since its launch, with all the organisations behind it.
I have had an interest in the outdoors for a long time, through my father and mother taking me out for walks. I joined the Long Distance Walkers Association when I was 15, although it took me all the way until 2009 before I finally did its 100-mile walk, which is quite a challenge to do in one go. That organisation, for example, has 1,400 trails and paths—78,000 miles—all downloadable as a database from its website. Other organisations are the same.
I am extremely grateful to the people who supported the Cotopaxi expedition, which has been mentioned, for the Royal British Legion’s Battle Back centre. That was a remarkable thing to be part of, with my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) and the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). We learned an awful lot through our experience in the outdoors with servicemen and former servicemen who were injured and have become ill through their service to our country. We saw how they were rehabilitated through the Battle Back centre and its incredible work with adventurous training and outdoor activities.
I pay tribute in particular to the Carnegie Great Outdoors faculty of Leeds Metropolitan university, or Leeds Beckett university as it is becoming, in my constituency. Dave Bunting, who led the Army’s west ridge of Everest expedition, was a wonderful leader, but the three former and serving soldiers, Lyndon, Paul and Luke, really made the team. That is what it was about; that is the power of the outdoors.
In my constituency, the Otley sailing club does wonderful work with sailing for the disabled. I was delighted that Norman Stephens from the club got the Leeds sports awards volunteer of the year award this year for that amazing work. The constituency also has the Yeadon sailing club. That is an outdoor pursuit that I have not yet tried, although I am sure that I will. We also have cycling, with the incredible Tour de France and the local hero in Otley, Lizzie Armitstead, who has just won a gold medal at the Commonwealth games to add to her Olympic silver medal. She is an inspiration to local people, especially young women, and it is important to get more young women involved in sports. Triathlon is a wonderful sport. This is not all about walking: it is sometimes about running, swimming and cycling all together. Locally, we have the Brownlee brothers as inspiration. It is a matter of pulling all these great initiatives together. I hope that we hear from the Minister that we will have a national strategy. Let us all urge all parties to have something about the outdoors in their manifestos.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, for what I think is the first time. I congratulate all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. We have heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and the hon. Members for Macclesfield (David Rutley), for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) and for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). They all raised similar issues, which I will try to deal with as I go through my notes.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore made a passionate opening speech, entreating all of us to get out there and enjoy the countryside. He has a great deal of experience in sports and physical activity: he has been employed in the industry and is an enthusiastic participant and organiser. It is a tribute to his work that we have had this debate and that so many people have taken part.
My hon. Friend talked about the benefits that people can easily derive from outdoor activities. The “Reconomics” report points out that outdoor activities are often free and easily accessible, and that many of the barriers to taking part in physical activity are removed when enjoying the outdoors. He is absolutely right to highlight the benefits of investing in outdoor activities, and the report demonstrates that there is a payback.
Although such investment creates jobs, benefits businesses and is an extremely good way of bringing economic activity into rural areas where it can otherwise be difficult to generate—many Governments have struggled with that—that payback is not just economic; as my hon. Friend said, there are also benefits to the individual, including health benefits. Outdoor activity helps people be healthier and feel better in themselves, and an increasing amount of evidence and research is demonstrating that investing in outdoor activity and encouraging people to become more active has a positive impact.
Many hon. Members spoke about the cost to the economy of inactivity. People refer to obesity, but that is not the only issue. It is possible for people who are overweight to be in better physical condition than someone who does not seem from their weight to be suffering from the consequences of inactivity. It is important to encourage people to be aware of that and to be more active.
The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire said that we should encourage young people to get involved in one hour of physical activity a week, and I would like to achieve that goal, starting with my own children—believe me, I consider myself a complete failure in that regard. My wife and I have run the London marathon and recognise the importance of staying active, but we are not successful in getting our children to be active, so are not great examples.
I am aware that nagging people does not work and so we need to be aware of other ways in which we can encourage people to be active. Inactivity is an issue, so we need to make sure that we focus on that first, from the very earliest age. I passionately believe that we need to equip young children, from the earliest age, to have confidence in their bodies, their core physical strength and their physical literacy, so that they can access not just sport but the sort of recreational activities that hon. Members have spoken about today.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I have a suggestion for my hon. Friend: I found locking the children out of the house and pointing them in the direction of the hills worked. On a serious point, will he also speak up for the importance of spreading room on the coastal paths that we have talked about? That is important for people interested in mountaineering and so forth. We need not just tracks and trails—the narrow two-metre paths—but wide spreading room, albeit with due attention to the needs of landowners, so that people can do other activities.
Clive Efford
Absolutely—that is important. Many benefits come from investment in coastal pathways and the kinds of pathways that the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford talked about, which link up through her constituency. Many other hon. Members made similar points. The rural economy benefits from people being able to access the countryside more easily.
I have a couple more points, which I will move on to. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South is a doughty fighter for women’s participation in sport, and made some important points about the lack of commercial investment going into women’s sport. Rugby is pointing the way, with full-time contracts for the women’s rugby sevens squad building up to the Rio Olympics.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to underline that we have to keep pushing: the current participation rates are not acceptable. I go back to the point I made about instilling confidence and consciousness about activity in young children at an early age. That is demonstrated by the fact that, sadly, as women get older and make choices for themselves, it is often clear that sport has not been a good experience for them, and they lose interest in it. We have to challenge that.
Several hon. Members called for a cross-Government strategy, and I agree with them. I commend to everyone the Opposition consultation document, “More Sport For All”, which we published in July. Under the heading “Why sport matters”, we refer to the “Reconomics” figures and discuss the importance of rural tourism and walking, and the need to recognise those sectors as part of not just a sports strategy but an economic one. I welcome comments from hon. Members and the Minister on that document.
Our consultation document recognises that virtually all Government Departments have a role in promoting sport and physical recreational activity. The Department of Health has a role, for example; the Ministry of Justice could, in terms of trying to divert young people from antisocial behaviour and provide them with the opportunity to experience something they might not get many opportunities to experience otherwise.
Greg Mulholland
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is clearly another of those Departments. I was lucky to join the Upper Wharfedale Fell Rescue Association during its new Wharfedale three peaks challenge. The mountain and cave rescue services have not been mentioned yet today, but we must ensure that they are part of the thinking, because without them we would not have the freedom we do on the hills.
Clive Efford
Reference was made during the debate to safety in the countryside; that is an important issue and one we should all remember.
New technology was referred to, but in a negative way, as something that discourages people from getting involved in sport. We need to look at it as a challenge and a way to provide people with information, to enable easier access for them, whether that be to sports facilities or other services. That technology is an important tool that we need to develop.
I have one last point to make. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore for securing this debate. Some points have been made about sports facilities; they are not necessarily anything to do with countryside recreational activities, but I would also like to raise them. We need to ensure that the sports that are bigger money spinners put money back into facilities. I am thinking of football in particular—we need to make sure that the Premier League lives up to its promises about putting money back into grass-roots sport. If such investment goes into facilities in our communities, all sports may benefit, not just football.
There was a story in the papers today about Queens Park Rangers perhaps having to pay a £40 million fine because it broke its financial fair play rules. If that is the case and that money must go to charity, I urge the authorities to put it back not into grass roots facilities in football, but into grass roots facilities in our communities so that people can become active in sport.
In conclusion, I am grateful for this important debate to discuss all aspects of outdoor recreation and activity, and I urge the Minister to respond to the six points on the agenda of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
It is a great pleasure, Mrs Main, to serve under your chairmanship. I, too, thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for securing this debate and for his contribution, and I thank other hon. Members for theirs. I have always been very lucky when it comes to the outdoors. As a child growing up on the edge of the Lake District, I was spoilt for choice with walking, kayaking, climbing and the views from Blencathra to which my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) referred. It is a stunning part of the country. I then went on to become an MP and found myself in the heart of the garden of England in the beautiful Kent countryside. I drew the long straws there.
As the Minister for Sport and Tourism, I want to ensure that everyone has the chances I had to participate in a diverse and interesting range of sports and activities. Many Departments and many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), work closely together to ensure that we are all playing our part in supporting this important sector.
There is little time available and a lot to say, but I will do my best to cover the points raised. Today, many hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Ogmore and my hon. Friends the Members for Macclesfield and for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), called on the Government to create a strategy for outdoor recreation. I am happy to look at that and at how we can bring together in a strategy all the good work already being done throughout the Government in different Departments.
Many hon. Members acknowledged that good work is being done, but asked for more to be done and for the Government to keep their foot on the pedal in relation to recreation and outdoor activity. That is certainly happening. VisitEngland has made a substantial investment in campaigns such as the Coastal Escapes campaign, the English Countryside campaign, the Rural Escapes campaign and the Active Outdoors campaign. Sport England has recently put £3 million into the British Mountaineering Council and there is ongoing cross-departmental ministerial involvement in campaigns in the health context such as the “Moving More, Living More” campaign, which confirms genuine support, interest and commitment in dealing with inactivity and benefiting from the various pluses of health, fun, sport and the resulting economic benefits.
The hon. Member for Ogmore, my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield and many other hon. Members spoke about the six key manifesto points. I have looked at them and they are all very interesting. We are already providing a lot of support for the outdoor recreation sector, but we will give all the six points due and proper consideration. Clearly, the matter is also for numerous other Departments, including the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Transport and the Department of Health.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) referred to the Active People survey and various concerns involving the calculation of the participation figures. I will be happy to talk to Sport England and the Department of Health about how to measure some of the recreational activities in the Active People survey.
The hon. Member for Ogmore, the shadow Minister and others referred to the “Reconomics” report and I agree that it is very good and detailed. In a good way, it pulls together existing research. Sport England and VisitEngland will certainly build on the various reports.
The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) raised the important issues of women in sport, participation by women and girls, lack of commercial sponsorship and investment in those important sectors.
Barbara Keeley
In the limited time, I did not mention that there are some informal initiatives that could do with better support. In Blackburn, the Couch to 5K initiative is getting many people running. The wonderful person who runs the Twitter account, @fattymustrun, is on a mission to get 1 million larger people running. Such initiatives should receive more support.
Mrs Grant
The hon. Lady has made some good points. The issue of women and girls in sport is an absolute priority for me. It has always been a priority, even before I came to this place, and it will remain one, mainly because of what it did for me when I was growing up. It provides not just health and fitness, but self-confidence, self-esteem and the important life lessons of leadership, teamwork, discipline and respect. We all know that and I am determined to get as many young people as possible, not just women and girls, doing sport.
There is good news because 600,000 more women are doing sport than when we bid for the Olympics in 2005. However, there is no room for complacency and I accept that there is still an irritating gender gap of about 1.9 million between the number of women and the number of men doing sport. I want that to diminish. There are some excellent projects at the moment, including Sportivate, Satellite Community, sports clubs and the school games in which more than 60% of schools are participating. Interestingly, at county sports festival level, more girls than boys are competing. The school sports premium provides the opportunity to ignite an interest in sport among our children at an early age.
In half an hour, I will meet the Woman in Sport Advisory Board. It is working hard on the lack of media coverage and commercial investment. The board includes people such as Judy Murray, Karren Brady, Helena Morrissey, Clare Connor and others who are working hard to deal with the lack of commercial involvement and media coverage, although I believe there have been improvements in what Sky and the BBC are doing. That is partly due to great leadership by Barbara Slater and people such as Clare Balding.
I know very well the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), having spent a considerable time there when I was little. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) on his major marathon walk during the recess when he raised a phenomenal amount of money for charity. Both my hon. Friends referred to the economic benefits of recreational activity. I agree that the great outdoors is hugely important for tourism and the country’s economic well-being. Interestingly, according to VisitEngland, overnight trips in Great Britain last year, including walking, hiking and rambling, resulted in a spend of £2.6 billion.
This has been an important debate and for me a very enjoyable one to respond to. Some excellent points have been made and I assure hon. Members that I take the issues seriously. Outdoor sport and recreation are key not only to our personal well-being but to the nation as a whole. I want to maintain the good progress that has been made by encouraging even more participation in outdoor sport and recreation with all the benefits that brings: a fitter, healthier and economically stronger nation.
Deaths in Police Custody
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
We now come to the debate in the name of Shabana Mahmood on the subject of deaths in police custody. I understand that during her debate, the hon. Lady intends to refer principally to the case of Kingsley Burrell. An inquest is due to take place into Mr Burrell’s death early next year. For that reason, I expect hon. Members who speak or intervene in this debate to take care not to make any remarks which could be construed as assigning blame for Mr Burrell’s death or as expressing opinions on other matters concerning his death which will be decided by that inquest. That is on the legal advice of the Clerks.
Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I am grateful for that guidance, which I also received from the Clerks in the Table Office earlier today. I confirm that it is my intention to talk about my constituent’s case, but to do so in a way that takes account of the fact that there will be a coroner’s inquest early next year. I am grateful to have secured the debate and for the opportunity to highlight the very important issues of concern to my constituents and to one family in particular, whose case I have been working on for some months.
Deaths in police custody are an issue of growing concern, both in this House and across the country, and the matter has been raised several times in the House recently. In particular, there has been a recent focus on deaths in custody in which the deceased had a mental health illness that was not dealt with properly, either by officers or by NHS staff. I understand that the Home Affairs Committee is currently looking at that issue and took evidence on it last week. However, as I said, I will focus on the case of my constituent, Kingsley Burrell, which raises other issues in relation to deaths in custody that show shocking procedural failures, which add to the pain that is suffered by families of the deceased and contribute to an erosion of trust between the community and the police.
The facts of Mr Burrell’s death, as the Independent Police Complaints Commission found, are that on 27 March 2011, emergency services were called to a reported firearms incident in Ladywood in my constituency. They ascertained that the complainant was Kingsley Burrell and also found that a firearms incident had not occurred. Mr Burrell allegedly displayed symptoms of mental health illness and was therefore detained and sent to the Oleaster mental health unit. He was later transferred to the Mary Seacole mental health unit in Winson Green, again in my constituency. On 30 March, staff at that unit called police and reported an incident, after which Mr Burrell was restrained and taken to A and E, where he received treatment, but on 31 March, he was pronounced dead.
Those mysterious and tragic circumstances are difficult enough for Mr Burrell’s family to cope with, but the aftermath has placed significant stress on the family, and the way in which this case and others very similar to it have progressed since the deaths occurred is completely unacceptable. It adds to the suffering of these families and I believe has a wider impact on police and community relations.
Kingsley’s mum, Janet Brown, told me about some of her experiences in the aftermath of her son’s death. She told me that the IPCC investigation into the conduct of the officers took far too long. She also told me that it was a year before the IPCC asked Dorset police to look into the actions of the NHS staff involved in Kingsley’s care. Both police and NHS staff had had contact with Kingsley in the lead-up to his death, and although the IPCC began immediately investigating the officers, it was a further year before anybody looked into the conduct of the NHS staff.
There was also a delay in receiving Kingsley’s body for burial. The family had to wait 18 months before the IPCC instructed the pathologist to take samples from Kingsley’s body. Janet also told me that the IPCC did not want to include in its investigation Kingsley’s own accounts of what took place when he was placed in the Mary Seacole unit in Winson Green. He had been logging his experiences in a diary and the IPCC’s initial reaction was that that evidence would not be included in its investigation. The family had to meet them and insist that the commissioner, Rachel Cerfontyne, insert that information into her investigation report.
It took the IPCC a year and four months to complete its investigation into the conduct of the officers who had contact with Kingsley in the lead-up to his death. The Dorset police force, which did not come on to the scene until a year after Kingsley had died—as I have said—took a year and nine months before they reported into the actions of NHS staff who had had contact with him in the lead-up to his death. The file was passed to the Crown Prosecution Service in October 2013, and it was only a couple of months ago that the CPS made the decision not to prosecute any of the officers, NHS staff or other individuals who had had contact with Kingsley in the lead-up to his death. Only now do we have a preliminary inquest hearing coming up—next month—into Kingsley’s case, and the full inquest will begin in 2015, nearly four years after he died.
As far as I can tell, it does not get much more serious for the police than when somebody dies in their custody, on their watch, or very soon after coming into contact with them, but the very clear lack of a process when a death in custody occurs and the inordinate length of time that it take to investigate these matters implies—to me, my constituents, and in particular, the Burrell family—a casual and complacent attitude towards deeply serious issues of concern to the whole community, as well as to the deceased’s family. It is also deeply disrespectful. There seems to be no empathy in this whole process, or any recognition that these people are grieving, and there is no thought given to how one of us might feel if we were in the shoes of Kingsley’s family or those of other families who have suffered in a similar way.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing the matter forward for debate. She talks about other families; Colin Holt, a constituent of mine who suffered from schizophrenia, died as a result of how he was restrained by the police. Officers in that case were prosecuted but acquitted at Maidstone Crown court, where the judge, Mr Justice Singh, said—
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to return to his seat. He is making a speech, not an intervention—it should be an intervention and a question to the Member whose debate it is. We should have the courtesy of allowing the hon. Lady the time to speak.
Shabana Mahmood
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to put his constituent’s case on the record. Restraint methods are an issue in cases involving deaths in police custody. My focus is particularly on the way in which these investigations take place and the amount of time that it takes to conduct them.
If the process got results, answered the questions that families have and ensured that the lessons that need to be learned are, in fact, learned, I suppose one could tolerate the fact that sometimes the investigation takes a very long time. But that is demonstrably not the case in the vast majority of cases involving deaths in police custody. The process takes far, far too long and it often leaves families with more questions and much greater pain. That is not something that any of us should continue to accept.
The impact on the wider community is also very profound. Contentious deaths in police custody include an ever-increasing number of people with mental health illnesses, and a disproportionately large number of people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds—and, sometimes, people from BME backgrounds with mental health issues. If those cases are not seen to be taken seriously and investigations are not seen to be conducted with due seriousness and as quickly as possible, trust in the system erodes seriously, breeding justifiable anger and resentment, and it is incumbent on all of us to do whatever we can to address that.
Sometimes it does not seem that deaths in police custody are treated as cases in which potentially a crime has been committed. The starting point should always be that we simply do not know what has happened, so all possible scenarios are on the table, but many families report that that is not how it feels to them. In practice, it feels as though a judgment has already been made and an end result is already in mind, long before the investigation has begun.
Despite the more than 900 deaths in police custody and several verdicts of unlawful killing, there has yet to be a single successful prosecution—a point that the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) also raised—of any police officer involved in those deaths. Again, that does not create much confidence in the wider public that the system is robust enough to ensure that when things go seriously wrong, as they do in many of these cases, we will get proper answers and accountability. It is the lack of accountability that bothers so many of my constituents, and it is the potential for lack of accountability that is keeping Janet Brown and her family awake at night. They fear that their questions will never be answered and someone will never be held to account for the death of Kingsley Burrell.
There are other issues in relation to deaths in police custody. People would expect sensitive and thorough handling of the investigation in the immediate aftermath of a death—the so-called golden hours, which are critical to evidence gathering and setting the direction and quality of the investigation that is to follow. Again, many families report that that does not happen in practice.
The independent charity INQUEST also tells us of particular problems in relation to IPCC material and disclosure, including ahead of inquest hearings. For a bereaved family trying to engage in an IPCC investigation, the organisation’s reluctance to provide early and full disclosure or to explain clearly, in language that ordinary people can understand—not lawyer-speak—why they cannot provide that evidence at the early stages of investigations, and when they expect to do so, fosters mistrust and is alienating and deeply unhelpful. Families often feel that they are not kept up to date and involved in the progress of the investigations. Of those who felt that they were kept involved and informed, many reported dissatisfaction because the information given to them was inadequate, difficult to obtain or delayed.
It seems to me that we have an ad hoc and chaotic system for investigations into deaths in police custody. There is no agreed method or structure and no checklist of what needs to happen and when. We need a uniform approach that allows professional judgment to be exercised on a case-by-case basis, but always in the context of a coherent and consistent national protocol for the structure of the relationship between investigating officials and the bereaved, and clear guidelines about the time frames that need to apply. That is the only way we can give the families who suffer in this way some confidence that they will at least understand the system and the process that is supposed to apply, and that they can hold to account the individuals involved.
I have mentioned the IPCC, and I believe that it has lost the confidence of the public and is not fit for purpose. It should be abolished and replaced by a new police standards authority, whose job it would be to take action and raise standards when policing goes wrong. Such an authority should be tasked with creating the national set of guidelines or protocols that should apply to the investigation of deaths in police custody, so that we can ensure that everyone knows what is meant to happen and when.
At this point, however, we still have the IPCC. I know that the Government have started their own review and it would be helpful if the Minister, when he responds to my remarks, could set out exactly what is planned for that review. But whoever ultimately has responsibility for these investigations—whether the IPCC, as now, or another organisation—its key task in the aftermath of a contentious death following police contact must be to begin immediately an independent, effective, accountable, prompt, public and inclusive investigation, so that the rule of law is seen to be upheld and applied equally to all citizens, including those in police uniform.
Young constituents of mine made this point to me only today when I was doing an interview on a local community radio station. They said, “Sometimes it feels that if you wear a uniform, you are above the law. You are there to enforce the law and to keep us all safe, but you should not be above it.” They make a fair point. It sometimes feels as if officers are not held properly to account. That relates not only to the potential for successful prosecutions and convictions but to the sense that if misconduct occurs, it will be challenged.
So often in relation to these cases, we say, “Lessons must be learned,” and we imply that lessons will in fact be learned. However, in my experience the lessons are not learned, because the cases of deaths in police custody that keep occurring all seem to follow the same pattern, and the same mistakes are often repeated. The families involved all report the same things going wrong in the investigations.
The experience of the Burrell family and the amount of time that it took for the investigations to conclude is very similar to that of other families who have suffered in similar circumstances. That says to me that the phrase “lessons must be learned” means nothing. Lessons are not learned, and it is about time that we started to get that right. If people are not held accountable, if there are no prosecutions and if there are no grounds for misconduct charges, at the very least we must fix the processes that apply when someone dies in these circumstances, given that we know there is a problem with them. That is one way in which we can start to give people confidence in the system again.
A few weeks ago, Janet Brown said to me that she has not yet grieved for her son and she will not do so until all her questions about his death have been answered and until she feels at peace that she has done everything she can to get justice for him. I think that making good, decent people wait so long and placing them at the mercy of a very chaotic system is a scar on our collective conscience. I really hope that the Minister, when he responds, can give Janet, the Burrell family and me some confidence that the Government understand not only the policy implications of these cases, but the emotional impact that they have, and that he and the Government will do something about it.
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, even though it is obviously enormously sad that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has had to bring—quite rightly, in her opinion, and probably in mine—this case to Westminster Hall this afternoon.
Let me say at the outset that any death, whether or not in custody, is regrettable, and a death in custody is enormously regrettable. It must be enormously traumatic for the Burrell family, and I fully appreciate the hon. Lady’s concerns. However, I cannot agree with many of her comments, because I think that she has almost predetermined what will be in the report from the IPCC, which has not yet even been released. I know that you, Mrs Main, said that we had to be careful in talking about the ongoing case, which is going to go before the coroner’s court for the inquest. The IPCC report is not out yet. That is the independent—I stress, independent—report.
There are some areas where I do agree, so let us do the bits that I do not agree with first and then we can move on. I do not recognise, as a constituency MP, the view of the IPCC and police as being above the law. I have patrolled with the police for more than 20 years, in many different capacities, and one of the things that I have found is this. There are, clearly, bad people within the police and bad people within our community. It is our job to make sure that we get them out of the police; they should not have got there in the first place in many cases. But the vast majority of the police—I want to put this on the record—99.9% of the police in this country, do a fantastic job for us, keeping us safe, not just in this place but in our homes and our businesses throughout the country.
This is an enormously difficult subject. The hon. Lady used quite emotive language in her speech, and I partially understand why, but not fully. May I touch, before I make progress with some other things, on the question of deaths in custody of people from the black and ethnic minority community? When I first thought about deaths in custody, my first thought was that that meant people who were being held by police in custody cells, but that is not always what happens. It is important to put on record that a death in custody occurs where the police have come into contact with somebody, even briefly, who has subsequently died. The IPCC will immediately become involved in such cases. The cases are sometimes enormously complex, much more so than I understand, although I am not as close to the case as the hon. Lady is. The way in which the news is communicated to families and loved ones is critical, and that is something that I am interested in looking at. I will come on to the IPCC review in a moment.
I will return to the hon. Lady’s comments about deaths in custody, particularly regarding people from the black and ethnic minority community. The IPCC did a 10-year study on deaths in custody between 1989 and 2008-09, and it found that 22 of those who died during that period were black. The view expressed in the report, which is a public document, is that that was in line, sadly, with the ethnic make-up of the detainee population. In 2010-11, there were, overall, 20 deaths in custody, one of which was sadly of an individual from the black community. In 2013-14, there were a total of 11 deaths in custody; clearly that is still too many, but the number of deaths has nearly halved since 2011. One of those deaths was, in the terminology used by the report—I do not like this terminology—of a mixed-race detainee. I am only using the language that has been given to me by lawyers, and I apologise for it. I am not very politically correct myself.
To recap, in 2010-11, there were 20 deaths in custody; in 2011-12, there were 15; in 2012-13, there were also 15; and in 2013-14, there were 11. I think that the report of this debate will show that the hon. Lady spoke about “growing” deaths in custody, although I may not be using her exact words. I know that black and ethnic minority groups feel that the situation is disproportionate, but the evidence that has been presented to me does not support that view.
Shabana Mahmood
I would like to clarify that I said that there was growing concern about deaths in police custody. I was talking not about the number of deaths that occur, but about the over-representation of people with mental health issues and about how trust in the police is being eroded in BME communities.
Mike Penning
I understand the point that the hon. Lady makes, and I will come on to talk about some work that I have been doing with a Minister in the Department of Health on mental illnesses. I repeat that the evidence shows that there were 20 deaths in custody in 2010-11—too many—one of which was of someone from the black community. Of the 15 people who died in 2011-12, one was a black individual and one was from a mixed-race family. In 2012-13, there were 15 deaths, one of which was of someone from a mixed-race family. In 2013-14, one of the 11 people who died was from a mixed-race family. The evidence speaks for itself. I understand how the situation is sometimes perceived, but it is our job as constituency MPs to ensure that our work is based on evidence rather than perception. It is the job of the police to do the same.
I am a new Minister in the Home Office, and I make the hon. Lady the same offer that my predecessor made: it would be good to meet outside the format of a debate to discuss the issues that she has raised. It is difficult for me to comment on the case, because the inquest will soon come before the coroner’s court and because the IPCC has not yet published its report.
There is no doubt that a review is needed into the IPCC’s work. That is not a criticism of the commission, but we need to look carefully at the nature of the work that comes before it. As a constituency MP, I regularly see cases where my constituents say, “I would like this case to go to the IPCC,” but I often look at the cases and think that they should have been resolved with the constabulary, rather than going to the IPCC. I am looking at guidance on that matter at the moment, and it will form part of the review of what the IPCC should look at. These cases are often complex, as is the case that the hon. Lady has raised. Before anything could happen, it was essential to ensure that any trial was not prejudiced, which is why the Crown Prosecution Service considered the matter before it progressed to an inquest. Of course, the IPCC now needs to report.
I do not believe that the previous Administration thought that the IPCC was flawed or broken and needed tearing up and throwing away, and I do not think that either. Is the IPCC perfect? No, it is not. Do we need to do some work with it? Yes, we do.
Without going into the details of the case that the hon. Lady has raised, there is one area that we need to work on, which has been the poor relation for many years. When I was a fireman in Essex, I used to go to road traffic collisions, which used to be called road traffic accidents. If someone was badly injured in an incident, we would extricate them as quickly as we could, the medics would do their job and the person would be taken to hospital for the treatment that they needed. The simple fact is that if someone has a mental illness, invariably the police will be called and the individual will end up in a cell rather than somewhere where they can get the medical help that they need. Is that the fault of the police? No, because their job is not to diagnose a mental illness but to make sure that the individual and the public are safe.
I was on patrol in Holborn only the other day when we received a call and went out. We thought that we would be dealing with a domestic incident, but the gentleman was having what his family described as an episode. The police did everything in their powers not to arrest him, but to take him to a hospital where he could get the correct treatment. I stress that the correct treatment is important. I have been working with the Department of Health to ensure that in such circumstances, people are not simply taken to an A and E department that does not have the required expertise, in which case they will be back out on the streets again five minutes later.
My view, and the view of the Health Minister with responsibility for the initiative, is that it is crucial that people with mental illnesses are treated as well as those with any other illnesses. People with mental health issues may also have learning difficulties and addictions to alcohol or drugs. The police still have a responsibility, however, not only to try to understand the circumstances of people who are brought before them, but to make sure that they can be taken to trained individuals with the right expertise. There are interesting projects going on at the moment. In Herefordshire, experts in the field such as nurses with mental health experience go out on patrol, particularly on Friday nights. It is important to have that sort of expertise alongside our patrolling police, and it provides a source of knowledge to ensure that the public feel safe.
I think that there is a real problem with the public, as well. The Olympics clearly showed us that public understanding of people with physical disabilities had really moved forward. The Paralympics was a great way of showing the world the wonderful things that people with long-term conditions and disabilities can do. However, all the evidence suggests that, although people with physical disabilities have seen such benefits, people with mental health issues and learning difficulties have not. We, as politicians, should do everything we can to tackle that.
I would love to have gone into a lot more detail, but with the ongoing investigations into the case, it would have been difficult for me to do so. I have every sympathy with the family. If I was the constituency MP, I would be sitting where the hon. Lady is sitting and asking exactly the sorts of questions that she has asked, but I always stand at the Dispatch Box—or, in this case, in this wonderful room. I just managed to get here in time, even though I went to the usual one first; it is a good job I always turn up early.
We are dealing with incredibly complicated issues, which will not be resolved in a half-hour debate. I look forward to meeting with the hon. Lady, and perhaps with the family, to see how we can move forward. Let us first see what we agree on, and then work on the other issues as we go forward.
Improving School Leadership
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I am pleased to have secured this important debate on how we can improve leadership in our schools. The purpose of this debate is not to criticise any of the heads in my constituency, or anywhere else for that matter, but to explore how we can build and improve on what we already have.
Every single teacher at whatever level, from newly qualified teacher to senior, experienced head, needs our thanks, support and praise for all they do to educate our children and teach our country’s next generation of wealth creators. My remarks, therefore, are designed to be constructive rather than critical, and I hope they will be heard in the spirit of constructive joint working.
Education is a vocation, and I know of no teacher anywhere who entered the profession for any reason other than to impart knowledge and support and nurture our young people. Teachers, and I hope all those listening to this debate, recognise that education is the greatest gift we can give. We have all heard that before, and I know it sounds corny, but the problem is that it is true because, once the gift of education has been given, it cannot be taken away—it does not break and it will not fade.
Education is the foundation stone on which one’s future success is built. It is the base from which almost anything is possible and from which people can realise their full potential. All that is delivered by some truly dedicated and inspirational people who are found at every level of education in some truly excellent schools. Good education comes from good schools, which from my experience are led by good leaders.
In my constituency we are fortunate. We have some truly exceptional school leaders. Yes, it is true that education in Basildon and Thurrock has not always been as good as it could have been, but the leaders that we now have in place, and the support structures that surround them, will deliver, and are delivering, improving education for my constituents. There are too many good leaders to name them all, but I will pay tribute to a couple.
First, I highlight the extraordinary dedication of Dr Sophina Asong, head teacher of Gable Hall school in Corringham. The area is like many others in the country, but unlike many areas—where the average proportion of five A* to C grades, including maths and English, is just under 60%—Gable Hall was pleased this year to achieve 74% with five A* to C grades, including maths and English. I say “pleased” but the school was not satisfied; it knows it can do better, and Dr Asong and her incredible staff assure me that things will get better. I am sure we want to see such dedication and determination in all our schools.
Dr Asong—I hope she will not mind my saying this—is a force of nature that I would like to see bottled and delivered to all parts of our school system, but I also pay tribute to the new principal of Woodlands school in Basildon, Karen Kerridge. She took over the leadership at possibly the most difficult time that the school has ever faced. Less than a year after a disastrous Ofsted report, Karen has come in and worked tirelessly to turn the school around.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate. It is important that we have outstanding leaders. Will he join me in congratulating Guy Shears, who turned around RSA academy Arrow Vale in Redditch? Could such outstanding head teachers be used as mentors for other head teachers?
Stephen Metcalfe
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and add my congratulations to Guy on all his work. Yes, head teachers with such skills should be used more widely in our education system so that we maximise the potential benefit to the wider teaching community. Karen Kerridge did that, too. She came in from another school to try to help Woodlands, and it is remarkable that in less than a year she has turned the school around so that, rather than being inadequate, it now only requires improvement. That may not sound fantastic, but it is one of the fastest turnarounds of a school, and I am confident that under her leadership it may not be long before we once again have a good school, which would be entirely down to the fortitude and dedication of Karen and all her staff.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
My hon. Friend has referred to getting good advice from other schools on improving performance. Is he aware that some schools have teaching school status? I draw his attention to Shenley Brook End school in my constituency, which has been a teaching school since 2012. The school’s leadership and training centre has helped guide and coach more than 2,000 teachers from 25 schools. Such centres are a good way of imparting leadership skills.
Stephen Metcalfe
Teaching school status is an important part of improving the quality of teaching and the experience that teachers get before they go off into their own schools. That reform has been important, and it is an excellent innovation.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I agree with everything he has said so far, which is good. Able leaders, as he rightly says, are important—I congratulate those in my constituency—and they need the best possible teams. Does he agree that there is a strong case for the most challenged schools serving some of our most disadvantaged areas to be able to pay teachers more than schools in other areas so that they attract the best to do the toughest job?
Stephen Metcalfe
I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is about the team. Successful schools tend to have a good head teacher with a good team around them, which is often down to the head teacher’s inspirational leadership. I agree that, where a school faces particular challenges, it is not a bad idea for it to be able to be flexible in the pay and conditions that it offers staff.
Speed is paramount, which is why the achievements at Woodlands school are so important. Students mostly get only one chance of an education, and for every day, week or month that they are not receiving a good education, we are doing them an incredible disservice, potentially damaging their future prospects and hampering their chances of reaching their full potential. We should celebrate the fact that Karen Kerridge has set the school back on the right path in less than a year, and we should thank her.
I would like to celebrate all the schools that are doing well in my constituency, but I am conscious of time and I want to hear what the Minister has to say. I am fortunate to have some great leaders who are helping to ensure that education in my constituency is improving, but unfortunately that is not the case everywhere. Unfortunately, there are too many schools that may not have the right leader with all the right skills and talents to deliver the kind of education that our children need, and often that is not the leader’s fault.
More than ever before, we have to deliver a world-class education, and we need able leaders to do that. It is a tough, difficult job that is not suitable for everyone. The job is different from any other in our education system. As the system is currently designed, however, if someone wants career progression, the obvious path is to head towards taking up a management role and, ultimately, their own headship.
But, as I said, being an inspirational, dynamic and consistent head teacher is like no other role in our education system. Head teachers have to manage complex and large budgets, perhaps a large staff body, premises and a range of other challenges. They are running medium-sized businesses, and they have to be able to deal with that fairly, consistently and in an orderly and professional manner, and many, many do. Despite all the training available and all the mentoring that can be given, we occasionally find that the wrong person has found themselves in an unsuitable job.
I suspect it is a bit like being an MP. Whatever a person imagines the job to be, it is not until they are actually in the hot seat that they fully understand everything it involves and know whether they are personally suited to it. However, an MP can step down at an election and pursue a different path without it being the end of their working life, but head teachers who feel they are in the wrong role have nowhere to go, which can cause problems both for them and for the school.
There are three options when that happens, none of which is a satisfactory solution. First, if the governors recognise that the wrong person is in the job they can initiate capability proceedings, which is a painful, devastating and destabilising experience for all involved, including the staff and students. It may force out of the profession an otherwise excellent teacher, which is a loss both for them and for the wider education system. Nobody gets to be a head teacher without being a good teacher and an asset to the system, and it would be a shame to lose all their talents simply because they lack some of the talents required to do a specific job.
Secondly, there is the “do nothing” option: the school coasts along, slowly declining, because the issue is put on the “too difficult to tackle” pile. Supporters of the school increasingly have to defend the declining performance and prop up the senior management team until finally a devastating Ofsted report is published that presents incontrovertible evidence that the school is not performing as it should. Suddenly, the head teacher is vilified and forced to leave the school and probably the profession, possibly to retire. Again, the damage done can be incalculable for the school, which may have failed students for years; for the head teacher, who has left a profession they probably love; and for the community they served, which feels let down.
Finally, there is the “hope and pray” approach: the governors hope the individual will move on or retire while they try to support those around the head until things get better. Unfortunately, that rarely happens, so one of the other options is usually adopted.
The problem with all those approaches is that even if the ultimate outcome is good, it can take years to deliver. However, there is no time to waste when delivering education. We need a system that supports great teachers, and encourages and nurtures fantastic leaders, but is fleet of foot enough to act rapidly if somebody finds themselves in a role they are not suited for and does not result in their having to leave the profession.
I turn to the role of the governors and the governing body. Having been a governor, I know how dedicated, selfless and hard-working they are. The role is becoming ever more demanding and requires a high degree of professionalism to be carried out well. Governors are the unsung heroes of our education system, and I want to thank them personally for what they do and apologise if they feel my earlier remarks were critical of them. The problem is that, as schools’ independence increases, the role of the governing body grows in importance, and it falls to the governors to hold the head and the school to account more than ever before.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He is making an important and excellent point about the impact of not taking action. I want to strengthen his point by saying that if governing bodies do not make that decision early, it becomes a much bigger problem for them, the school and the wider community.
Stephen Metcalfe
I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent point. I was just coming to that issue. He is entirely right that speed is important, but that means that governors have to make some difficult decisions.
Mr Andrew Smith
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that schools serving the most disadvantaged communities often find it hard to get the governors they need for the accountability process? One of the best things businesses can do to help our education system is to encourage more members of staff to become governors in such schools.
Stephen Metcalfe
The right hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. He admirably covered a point that I included in my speech. MPs have a role to play in that process. We should write to the larger organisations in our constituencies to remind them that they and the wider community benefit when they allow their staff to lead schools and play a part in the local community. That excellent point cannot be repeated too often.
For governors who lead schools that have greater independence, it is becoming harder to be all friends together. They may duck away from making tough or unpleasant decisions if they are too close to the senior management team and the head. I am not criticising governors, but I want to ensure they are equipped with the tools they need to play their important role of ensuring the leadership of our schools is the best it can be.
The Government have done much to improve our education system, for which I am grateful. I therefore hope the Minister considers my remarks to be a useful addition to the debate that will help us ensure our schools have the best possible leaders. People who find themselves in the wrong role should have constructive options open to them that do not result in their leaving the profession. We must equip our governors with the right tools to help that change happen. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) on securing the debate and on making his case so powerfully. I agree with his points about national education policy and the importance of good leadership and governance. I am delighted that he picked today to hold this debate because this morning the Government announced a series of further measures to strengthen school leadership. He had extraordinary foresight in securing this opportunity, which allows me to put on the record some of the announcements we made today.
I am pleased to hear about the progress made by a number of the schools in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I join him in congratulating the schools whose success he celebrated. He mentioned Gable Hall school, which secured a good set of GCSE results this year. A signal of its success is the fact that it does not see that as an end destination, but as something to build on; it is fantastic that it still wants to aim higher. Woodlands school, which came from a different starting point, has moved out of the “inadequate” category into “requires improvement” in a short period of time. Like my hon. Friend, I wish it well in moving further up to “good” and beyond in the future. It can be a difficult and time-consuming process to take over and turn around schools in the bottom category, so it is good that that happened so quickly.
I was also pleased to hear from other hon. Friends about the progress of schools in their areas—both in Redditch and in some of the teaching schools in the country. I agree with the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) about the need to ensure that schools in some of our more disadvantaged communities have the resources and flexibility to pay more to attract outstanding leaders and teachers.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock struck the right balance when he praised the schools that are doing well. If we are to be listened to in Westminster when we talk to schools that are not doing so well and challenge them to do better, we must show that we have balance and are willing to praise success as well as pick up the schools that are not doing so well. My hon. Friend was right not to be complacent in that regard. He has many outstanding schools in his constituency, including Great Berry primary school, Lee Chapel primary school and the children’s support centre at Langdon Hills, which are all rated “outstanding” by Ofsted. However, 16, or 44%, of the schools in his constituency are in the “requires improvement” category, which used to be “satisfactory”.
My hon. Friend is right that Ofsted is sending out a clear signal, for the reasons that he gave. We no longer accept that satisfactory is good enough. Most young people get only one chance at education, so it has to be high-quality. Therefore, where schools could be doing better and require improvement, we should be challenging and supporting them to do so in exactly the way that he described, and that is also why we have introduced some changes today, which I will outline shortly.
I commend not only the schools in my hon. Friend’s constituency but the excellent work of schools and school leaders right across the country. Those leaders have been turning around schools with their commitment, dedication and unrelenting focus on pupil outcomes. Leading a school is a very challenging role to take on, but it is also absolutely critical. It is very rare to find an outstanding school that does not have outstanding leadership.
Great school leaders can transform schools, but they cannot do so alone. They need their staff to engage in the pursuit of educational excellence, and of course part of a school leader’s job is to motivate and inspire staff and to recruit high-quality staff. That is why great school leaders are at the heart of this Government’s education reform programme.
Our schools White Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, put schools and school leaders in the driving seat of our reforms and gave them more powers and more support. It set out our vision for a self-improving school system whereby our best schools and leaders drive improvement from within, working together to spread best practice, knowledge and experience, to the benefit of all schools.
We have made good progress on that agenda and we should celebrate the incredible achievements of schools, teachers and pupils, not only in my hon. Friend’s constituency but across the country. Schools in England are now performing better than ever before. Ofsted figures show that 83% of schools in England have achieved good or outstanding ratings for leadership and management, with 80% of schools in England now judged to be good or outstanding overall.
The sophistication and diversity of school leadership across England has also grown and matured over many years, with new approaches emerging in multi-academy trusts and elsewhere. For example, sponsored academy chains are pioneering new kinds of leadership development. Schools everywhere can learn a good deal from the approach taken by chains of three or more sponsored academies, whereby they can grow their own leadership. In this type of school, middle and senior leaders enjoy more opportunities for both internal and external coaching and mentoring. These chains also tend to have a chief executive who is actively engaged with developing leaders, establishing a culture of ambition and success for staff.
At a national level, the Government have invested in professional qualifications for middle leadership, senior leadership and aspiring heads. Since some of these programmes were launched in March 2013, more than 5,200 participants have commenced the middle leader programme, and more than 5,400 participants have commenced the senior leader programme. In addition, more than 2,300 aspirant head teachers have commenced the headship programme since its relaunch in autumn 2012, with a further 640 commencing the programme this autumn. Feedback from participants shows that these programmes help to prepare our school leaders of the future and enable them to develop the skills, knowledge and confidence that they need to thrive in their schools.
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about ensuring that we have head teachers in place who are fully equipped to carry out the role successfully and to support all pupils in their care. That is why excellent school governance, which he also spoke about, is paramount. It is essential that school governors have the right skills and knowledge to support and challenge the performance of head teachers, which is why we are also investing in more effective school governance. Our national leaders of governance programme identifies highly effective chairs of governors, who use their skills and experience to support chairs of governors in other schools and academies, to increase leadership capacity and improve school performance.
Of course, we need many thousands of governors right across the country, which is a huge recruitment challenge, not least, as the right hon. Member for Oxford East indicated, in more disadvantaged communities, where we have to ensure that the quality of governance is very high. He was quite right to say that we need to call on businesses, other professional groups and other groups with people who have high aspirations who are willing to become governors and chairs of governors in these areas.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock may have seen that we have also convened a review group made up of highly respected professionals to review head teacher standards, to ensure that those standards set out the behaviour, qualities and knowledge expected of modern head teachers.
The Government also recognise that some schools face particularly challenging circumstances. This is why we are funding the Teaching Leaders charity and the Future Leaders Trust, so that they can work closely with staff in schools serving disadvantaged communities. Teaching Leaders identifies and develops middle leaders, such as heads of department or year, to improve teaching in the most challenging schools and for the pupils who will benefit most from such improvement. Owing to the impact that the programme has demonstrated, we recently expanded its provision in secondary schools so that more children can benefit from it. From this month, a new Teaching Leaders programme for the primary sector starts, which will benefit some 160,000 children by developing the skills of their middle leaders.
By funding the Future Leaders Trust, we are also developing the skills of aspiring head teachers who want to work in some of the most challenging schools in the country. So far, 85 participants in the Future Leaders programme have gone on to become head teachers in these challenging schools, many of which are outside London and in areas where other school improvement initiatives in the past have been less prevalent.
We are going even further than that, which is why I am particularly delighted that we have this debate today. Only this morning, we launched the new Talented Leaders programme, which is designed to transform the life chances of pupils in the areas of greatest need across the country, where we do not have enough outstanding schools or enough outstanding head teachers.
This new programme will recruit 100 outstanding deputy heads and heads to lead schools in some of the most challenging communities, where there is a shortage of good leadership. We are starting recruitment today, and the first placements will start in September 2015 and September 2016. Those placements are designed to be voluntary—we will engage the parts of the country that most need them—and to be long-term initiatives, not short-term initiatives, to grow the leaders in the schools that we put them into.
I urge hon. Friends and hon. Members who think that their constituencies are in parts of the country that have a shortage of outstanding leadership to consider applying for their areas to be part of this programme, so that we can get some of these outstanding leaders to the parts of the country where they are most needed.
Another reason why we have this close focus on school leadership is the impact that such leadership has on driving better outcomes for our most vulnerable children and young people. Great school leaders achieve great outcomes for all their pupils, whatever their background. To do that, they close the gap in achievement between pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds and their peers. This issue is close to my heart and the heart of the Government, which is why we are very proud to have helped to introduce the pupil premium. It was introduced in 2011 and has now risen to £2.5 billion per year, providing a massive amount of resources in schools with disadvantage, to ensure that all those schools have the money they need to try to close that gap.
The recent Ofsted report on the use of the pupil premium highlighted increasingly good practice in the schools that are using this money very effectively, to close the gap between them and other schools. We are committed to giving schools freedom in how they use the pupil premium; but through the Ofsted process, we will hold them to account, to ensure that the gap is closed. Our best school leaders are now driving improvements, which can be seen not only in the expansion of academies and free schools but in the increase in the number of schools across the country that are supporting other schools.
Teaching schools were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). They are outstanding schools that have a strong track record of working with other schools to bring about improvement. They are the principal network through which support and development for middle and senior leadership is now being offered. Last week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education announced the 600th teaching school in England, which is a fantastic milestone in a programme that is less than four years old.
As part of this morning’s announcement, which I referred to earlier, we recognised the achievements of both the national leaders of education programme and the national support schools programme. The fantastic success of those programmes comes down to the excellent school leaders who have come forward to take on roles in them, collaborating with and supporting staff in other schools that require improvement or that are in special measures, to try to help them to improve.
Today, I announced our intention to increase the number of NLEs from the present figure of 1,000 to 1,400 by March 2016, to ensure that more schools and more parts of the country can benefit from NLEs, because at the moment—sadly—there are too few of them in large parts of the country, and consequently schools and local authorities in those areas that need more support find it difficult to identify those individuals.
We also announced today a new school-to-school support fund, which will be worth £13 million over the next two years and which will help to fund those NLE deployments, so that the schools that have NLEs will receive money to help them to support other schools.
I note that Susan Jackson and her staff at the Lee Chapel primary school, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock, work in their roles as an NLE national support school and teaching school, collaborating with other schools to drive pupil outcomes. I am very grateful to teaching schools across the country, including in my hon. Friend’s constituency, which are doing this excellent work.
In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate, which is not only very important for his constituents but very timely, given the actions that the Government are taking. I hope that in the future we can build on this strategy across the country, including in his constituency, so that even more schools can achieve good and outstanding ratings.
Written Statements
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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UK Guarantees Scheme
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)
The Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Act 2012 requires the Government to report any financial assistance given under the UK Guarantees scheme. The scheme provides a sovereign-backed guarantee to help infrastructure projects raise debt finance. A commercial fee is charged to the borrower for the guarantee, determined by the nature of the guarantee and the risk inherent in the project.
The Government can confirm they have approved guarantees under the UK Guarantees scheme for Ineos Grangemouth ethane import and storage facilities (£230 million/€285 million) and Speyside CHP plant (£48.2 million).
Ineos Grangemouth will be constructing new port facilities, a new ethane tank and associated modifications to the KG ethylene cracker. This will reduce dependency on feedstock from the North sea through the import and storage of ethane from the US. The guarantee issued to Speyside will be used for the construction of a combined heat and power plant which will generate both electricity and heat.
Governance in Local Government
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
One of the most important duties of local authorities is the protection of vulnerable children. Professor Jay’s recent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham has painted a horrific and awful picture that the council utterly failed its children.
As Professor Jay noted:
“No one knows the true scale of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham over the years. Our conservative estimate is that approximately 1400 children were sexually exploited over the full Inquiry period, from 1997 to 2013. In just over a third of cases, children affected by sexual exploitation were previously known to services because of child protection and neglect. It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child victims suffered. They were raped by multiple perpetrators, trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten, and intimidated. There were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone. Girls as young as 11 were raped by large numbers of male perpetrators. This abuse is not confined to the past but continues to this day.”
Following the publication of the Jay report, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced to the House on 2 September that I was minded to use my powers to commission an independent inspection of the council. In parallel, I would also be considering the implications of the report’s findings for all local authorities in England.
With clearly documented failures by the council on so many levels, the rare step of a statutory inspection is in the public interest. I have now decided to exercise my powers under section 10 of the Local Government Act 1999 to appoint Louise Casey CB to carry out an inspection of the compliance of Rotherham metropolitan borough council with the requirements of part 1 of that Act, in relation to the council’s exercise of its functions on governance, children and young people, and taxi and private hire licensing.
In undertaking her inspection, I have directed her to consider whether, in exercising its functions on governance, children and young people, and taxi and private hire licensing, the local authority:
allows for adequate scrutiny by councillors;
covers up information, and whether “whistleblowers” are silenced;
took and continues to take appropriate action against staff guilty of gross misconduct;
was and continues to be subject to institutionalised political correctness, affecting its
decision making on sensitive issues;
undertook and continues to undertake sufficient liaisons with other agencies, particularly the police, local health partners, and the safeguarding board;
took and continues to take sufficient steps to ensure only “fit and proper persons” are permitted to hold a taxi licence;
is now taking steps to address effectively past and current weaknesses or shortcomings in the exercise of its functions, and has the capacity to continue to do so.
As the statute allows, I also intend to appoint on her recommendation, assistant inspectors to ensure that she has all the skills and experience available to her which she believes are necessary for her to fulfil her remit. Louise Casey will report to me by 30 November 2014, or such later date as I may agree with her, whether or not the council is meeting this duty to secure continuous improvement in respect of its governance, the services it delivers for children and young people, and taxi and private hire licensing.
I have appointed Louise Casey to carry out this sensitive task rigorously and independently. I am confident that with her track record of working in public service and particularly in challenging established practices in regard to the most vulnerable—for example, in reducing rough sleeping, as Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses and in her current role as head of the troubled families programme—she has the experience and skills to undertake a robust and independent inspection which will provide a full and comprehensive report on these matters.
Beyond the terms of reference I have set out in this statement, it is for Louise Casey, with any assistant inspectors I appoint on her recommendation, to decide how to carry out this inspection, and her findings and conclusions will be a matter for her alone.
Louise will continue to lead the troubled families programme. While she is carrying out the inspection in Rotherham, arrangements are being put in place to ensure that progress on troubled families is maintained.
If I am satisfied that an authority is failing to comply with its duty under part 1 of the 1999 Act, that Act gives me the power to statutorily intervene in that authority. Intervention may take a number of forms, including directing the authority to take any action that I consider necessary or expedient to secure its compliance with the 1999 Act duty, or directing that certain of the authority’s functions be undertaken by me or by a person—a commissioner—appointed by me for that purpose. The inspection report that I receive will assist me in reaching my view as to whether or not Rotherham metropolitan borough council is meeting its duty under part 1 of 1999 Act.
As part of my consideration of the implications of the Jay report for all authorities in England, I shall be asking Louise Casey, in addition to and outside the scope of the statutory inspection, to explore the links between Rotherham metropolitan borough council and the police and justice system, and highlight issues that local authorities, police forces and the justice system should consider in their work on child sexual exploitation, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary welcomes this.
I will also ask Louise Casey to report to me on whether she considers, as a result of undertaking the inspection or otherwise, there are any further matters which might appropriately be drawn to the attention of authorities and other local service providers generally to assist them to improve the delivery of their services, particularly those relating to children and young people.
In order to assist Louise Casey and help my consideration of the wider issues I will be writing to all leaders of principal councils asking them to consider the implications of the Jay report for their own authority.
I will make a statement to the House in due course on the completion of this work and after due consideration of the report.
We cannot undo the permanent harm that these children have suffered. But we can and should take steps to ensure that this never happens again and make sure that all local authorities deliver on their essential duty to protect vulnerable children.
Immigration and Nationality Services
(9 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)
I am today announcing some changes to fees for immigration and nationality applications made to the Home Office. The Government review these fees on a regular basis and make appropriate changes as necessary. The amended regulations are for fees set at or below the cost of processing the relevant applications.
We are making some targeted amendments to support the implementation of provisions in the Immigration Act 2014, including expanding the list of application routes required to pay a fee for the enrolment of biometrics. We are also taking the opportunity to amend one other fee to support economic growth.
Further details of the changes are provided in the explanatory memorandum for the regulations. The Government intend to bring most of these amendments into force from 1 October, though some of the new fees will come into effect later in the year to align with changes to processes. An updated fees table can be found on the Home Office website: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table
Full details on how to apply for all of the Home Office’s products and services will be provided on the Home Office website:
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-visas-and-immigration