Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Q4. Whether he plans to implement the outstanding recommendations of the Second Report of the Defence Committee of Session 2021-22, Protecting those who protect us: Women in the Armed Forces from Recruitment to Civilian Life, HC 154. (905503)

Question number four, Mr Speaker.

14:56

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I would like to thank the honourable member for their question. Defence as a whole is accepting 33 recommendations from the women in Armed Forces report, we have two outstanding elements. The results of an Armed Forces sexual harassment survey and a veterans strategy with a specific female veteran section. Both will be released in the autumn. On top of this, we have a tri-service complete system which I personally brought in and a Violence against Women and Girls Taskforce to make sure any woman can serve with safety and pride.

pride.

14:57

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

- -

The Atherton report published in 2021 surveyed 4,000 female service personnel and veterans. It revealed that 62% had been victims of bullying, discrimination, harassment, or sexual assault, during their service. Does the Minister recognise that, at a time when we are expanding our Armed Forces, we must improve the overall experience of women in the military? Protect female personnel, and help servicewomen achieve their full potential.

14:57

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

Out would like to thank the honourable member and I couldn't agree more. And I would like to highlight that, obviously, in our minister Armed Forces, we have an individual who has lived experience of being a female in the Armed Forces. It is really important to mention an individual that sits at the bottom of the command chain, if they are experiencing a problem, where do they go? Where did they seek help? Or do they complain to? You can not do it in the chain of command in some cases, it may not be appropriate, you may not want to.

That is why the Violence against Women and Girls Task Force so important at the tri-service system, it will allow people to come out of the command chain and make sure the command chain and make sure those issues are dealt with properly.

14:58

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

Number five, Mr Speaker. every asylum hotel a priority. Last week, I met with cross government ministerial colleagues to discuss how defence will contribute to that work. We have deployed a military planning team to assist the Border Security Command and the Home Office, to look at nurturing nonmilitary sites for temporary but adequate housing, so we can accelerate closing asylum hotels.

14:59

Mr Peter Bedford MP (Mid Leicestershire, Conservative)

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker, the safety and security of my constituents is my newborn priority. But given the national security risk, posed by some of those crossing the English Channel illegally, I would ask the Minister to look at using military assets to stop those small boats landing in the first place.

14:59

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I am grateful for his question and share his passion for keeping our country safe. Can I refer him to the work of a military operation undertaken by the last Conservative government, that put the Navy in charge of securing the English Channel. It concluded that naval assets were not suitable for that task. It is already a dangerous crossing and they concluded that military assets only made it more dangerous, which is why the Armed Forces now are assisting the Home Office and Border Security Commander looking at how we can provide that accommodation, to close the asylum hotels, how we can speed up the processing of asylum applications, something the government that he backed shamefully stopped when they were in power, there is a lot of work to do but we are making progress.

15:00

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

- -

In light of the Minister's comments, that he and the government are considering using military barracks to house asylum seekers, and while I thank you for his efforts to help address the small boats crisis, by providing logistical planning support, I personally do not feel that operational responsibility for this should not fall to our Armed Forces. The experience of operation isotope under the Boris Johnson government, widely criticised by the Defence Committee previously, for causing confusion, reputational risk, and straining our already pressured military serves as a clear warning.

Can the Minister issue ironclad assurances to the House that any future MoD involvement within this field will be strictly limited, clearly defined command will not strain our already pressured If can I thank my honourable friend If can I thank my honourable friend The Chair of the Select Committee The Chair of the Select Committee for his question and the ministry as part of the response to small boat and we are stepping up our support in order to assist our colleagues in in order to assist our colleagues in the Home Office, the Home Office remains the lead department for this, but as every department can contribute something to this effort it is right that the Ministry of Defence does so but we continue to protect the nation and deliver the changes as laid out in the strategic Defence Committee that remains our number one priority to keep this priority safe.

15:01

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for the honourable gentleman's question as I will sure to be outlined as part of that strategy this Government will set out an ambitious skills package that will grow and retain and develop the well-paid high skilled workforce the UK requires to boost jobs and make defence an engine for growth for every nation and region of the country.

15:02

Sam Carling MP (North West Cambridgeshire, Labour)

- -

Thank you. Last week I visited someone that employs many of my constituents and provides a critical part of our defence and the plans part of our defence and the plans are expanding quite significant we to carry opportunities to my constituents and the noble member for Huntington was there also. Does

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the Minister agree? Please, I do not want crossbench

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Please, I do not want crossbench

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Please, I do not want crossbench relationships being woken on who is constituency or not. Thank you. Does the Minister agree that the defence industry in Huntingdonshire would unlock

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Huntingdonshire would unlock prosperity and candy outline how we would support skills development to ensure that my constituents can access these opportunities? I think my honourable friend for

15:03

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think my honourable friend for his question and he is a real his question and he is a real And for all those that could work in terms of the expanded opportunities that I have spoken to the Member for Huntington about and I and glad there is cross-party support for the investment that his Government could make. There is a real opportunity to use defence as an engine for growth, creating more opportunities for our young people in particular and I would be very happy to meet my honourable friend and the honourable gentleman opposite to discuss how we can further develop this in the spirit of a cross-party consensus about the opportunity.

15:03

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

- -

Thank you. Charles Stewart Parnell came to this place and used British institutions against the British state and now in Scotland we have the first Minister who is kind of a punch-up Parnell because although we hear about defence and for across the UK, the SNP Government has results against supporting defence in Scotland. What are we going to do about this? The defence sits here, not in Hollywood. defence sits here, not in Hollywood.

15:04

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I thank him, this government's approach is to create jobs and opportunity without increasing the defence budget in every part of the knitted kingdom, including in Scotland, the Norway frigate deal highlights that how a UK Government is selling otherwise and our is selling otherwise and our expertise in a global stage can provide additional jobs, 4,000 jobs across the UK, 2,000 in Scotland, and while the SNP Government have dithering on defence, the Labour

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Government has been delivering. Question eight, Mr Speaker.

15:04

Q8. What steps he is taking to improve recruitment and retention in the armed forces. (905508)

15:04

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

Question eight, Mr Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As I say, As I say, it As I say, it is As I say, it is a As I say, it is a huge As I say, it is a huge honour As I say, it is a huge honour to be here, I am very honoured. We inherited a real crisis in recruitment and retention, this Government is renewing the contract Government is renewing the contract with those that serve, giving the largest pay rise in 20 years, and allocating an extra £1.5 million to fix the forces housing and establishing new Armed Forces Commissioner.

It is clear that our Commissioner. It is clear that our actions are having an effect on who would continue to improve and is up 13% year-on-year that will allow us to join the armed forces and to to join the armed forces and to continue to remain high. Our retention for this has been falling year-on-year with people joining and we have started to reverse that decline was 11% reduction in outflow year-on-year.

15:05

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

year-on-year. Thank you. I welcome the honourable member to this place. honourable member to this place. Over the last year I have had the privilege of taking part in the Armed Forces pulmonary scheme and I have met with people across the UK and beyond and one of the issues and beyond and one of the issues that comes up when it comes to retention is that for overseas workers and Armed Forces families they cannot have access to work opportunities, there are no specific opportunities, there are no specific visas or opportunities with other countries where Armed Forces are based, meaning that they often have to take pay cuts or relocate with to take pay cuts or relocate with those partners.

With the Minister look at testing what we can do to support workers overseas and Armed Forces?

15:06

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Forces? Thank the honourable member for raising this issue and I have seen raising this issue and I have seen it firsthand. The descriptions are going to update the member in due course.

15:06

Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)

- -

I speak about the brave men and women that speak are the best among us and I look forward to this weekend to learning more about the RAF personnel, there is a 5%. For officers in this job from the last July and an additional 1.5% to ensuring that this Government is committed and what other are we doing to ensure our Armed Forces personnel?

15:06

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

Thank the honourable member for his question, as he has rightly referred to the largest pay rise in 20 has and I am particularly delighted that we can say that no member of the Armed Forces is paid below the National Minimum Wage and we have a lot to do and I very much looking forward to getting to work

**** Possible New Speaker ****

on this and I hope may be to meet with the honourable member to discuss it. Thank you and I congratulate the

15:07

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you and I congratulate the Member for North East Derbyshire fellow female veteran, and the fellow female veteran, and the Member for limit. Reserve forces are a vital component of the British Army and I welcome the government's commitment to increasing these forces by at least 20% but a lack of a clear timeline is not enough and the report by the public council committee agrees with this and many are in the wrong locations and the condition has declined. Good training sites in the right locations are vital, so the Government today have a timeline for securing funding for the next stages?

15:07

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

I think the honourable member and congratulations on that question and she raises a very valid point and it is absolutely right there is more to do in this particular area and I am afraid I not able to provide a specific timeline here, but I will keep that in mind. Minister. Minister.

15:08

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

With permission I should like to answer questions nine, 12, 15 and 19 together. I think the amount of questions on this issue highlights the importance of the subject of cadets from both sides, indeed all sides of the House. We have highlighted the STI that we will increase the cadets by 30% by 2030 with 70 million of funding. That is existing cadet forces, but also looking at where new cadet forces could be put to areas of social or democratic requirement and that would give kids across the country a fantastic opportunity to allow them

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to flourish and thrive both within school and as they move to the end of education. Thank you. As one of the first

15:08

Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. As one of the first female press in Scotland I know how female press in Scotland I know how transformative this experience can be, yet now in 2025 they make up about one third of the force and what might my honourable friend the Minister due to ensure that training cadet is an exciting opportunity for girls as well as boys were my right honourable friend join me in a message to my constituents to see these brilliant young people in action?

15:09

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I would like to thank you very much, the honourable friend, for what is a very important point and the cadet forces are an important organisation and we are absolutely delighted going from Cornwall to just the summer camp I want to if you weeks ago to see the diversity of it, it is actually far better in some cases than the Armed Forces and currently worth 36% female, 39% school-based cadets are female and this is a positive and important trend and I hopefully and encouragingly will continue over time.

15:09

Saqib Bhatti MP (Meriden and Solihull East, Conservative)

- -

Thank you. I was delighted to be also that my school could provide a cadet force in the RAF section and until recently I was in the Armed Forces Association and I was quite pleased to see a lot of the organisations of the Government to increase cadet sizes but I was very worried to see the comments by the public council committee which said there is a distinct lack of detail and funding to achieve those numbers. Without the funding and without the detail surely these plans and numbers are just meaningless, on day?

15:10

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I would like to thank the honourable member for that question and there are two different areas. The first one is about expanded by 2030 to 70 million behind that the plan is being developed, how to deliver and the second point about the reserved forces primarily around infrastructure which we are also working on now and there is a legacy issue that we are trying to rejuvenate and ensure the accommodation and indeed the infrastructure is best fit for purpose moving forward.

15:10

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

- -

Thank you and I also welcome my friends into her place on the frontbench. Before recently I was lucky enough to visit the air cadet and see the wonderful work that they do supporting young people from across the area, teaching leadership skills and also letting that sense of community and with the Minister during my in congratulating the air cadet for the work that they do and recognise the importance that this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

makes to communities like mine and working class communities. I would like to thank the

15:11

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would like to thank the honourable member 110%, cadet is all about social, getting kids mobility, getting them up and out and that is what Labour is all about and the exodus from my perspective is to the summer camp and they had one year flying planes, steps, spots, flying flying planes, steps, spots, flying drones, it literally was outstanding and I would like to congratulate the cadets, the cadets and hopefully cadets, the cadets and hopefully some pot I will get to visit them in due course.

15:11

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

due course. Thank you. Eastbourne's mighty sea cadets celebrate their 150th birthday this year, but their future is being put under threat by rising energy bills that are making running the operation less and less sustainable, the same as many other cadets across the country. Will the Minister share how the Government will support the likes of the cadets with energy Bill so that they can continue their incredible impact on local young people and other Armed Forces more generally?

15:12

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I would like to just say that the air cadets are fantastic, the sea cadets are fantastic and the army cadets are amazing and they're all amazing and I would love to take on this issue, so please write to me with the details and we will have a look at what we can do, but absolutely huge admiration for them, and at some point if my diary permits I would love to visit them all.

15:12

Q10. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the planned timetable for implementing the recommendations of the Strategic Defence Review. (905510)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Government has accepted all 62 of the recommendations of the Strategic Defence Review, implementation of the reviews recommendations is already well under way. already well under way.

15:13

Alex Brewer MP (North East Hampshire, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker. As RAF Odiham celebrating its centenary this year I am proud of the many close ties that we have in my constituency of North East Hampshire. One of the recommendations of the Strategic Defence Review is improved accommodation, and here we are letting our personnel down. Given that there is widespread agreement with commissary, the Liberal Democrats on this issue, including in The Other Place, will the Minister support bringing all minute military housing in line with the Decent Homes Standard in today's renters rights Bill?

15:13

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

Mr Speaker, last year we have taken huge steps to start to make good decades of substandard housing in military personnel and families. 36,000 homes back into public ownership so that we can plan exactly the sort of upgrade that she is talking about and we already announced the publication of 12 F- 35A is joining the FCA mission of NATO we have launched our new 70 million campaign on debt and stood up to operation command and today we are publishing a defensive strategy to make defence manager for growth and this is a Government delivering for defence delivery.

15:14

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Strategic Defence Review rightly highlighted the need for a whole of society approach to defence, including expanding its bite 15% by 2030 but a key part of that has to be supporting more adult volunteers to give them time. Correct ask my right honourable friend what steps he is taking to ensure more adult volunteers are able to support our fantastic cadets?

15:14

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

Can I say to my honourable friend he is exactly right that cadet forces cannot exist without the adult volunteers that support them and they are essential to our and they are essential to our ability to increase by 20 30 x 30% number of cadet forces across this country that will give the opportunities in the future to so many young people. many young people. We totally condemn Russia's air attack on Ukraine at the weekend. This is the worst since Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine began hitting a Government building for the first time.

Putin is escalating his attacks and we must step up and speed of our support for Ukraine. Last week I announced that over £1 billion of profit has now been put into military aid for Ukraine and tomorrow I will host and co-chair from London the 30th Ukraine Defence Contact Group in 50 nations that we will perform together increased military aid for Ukraine.

15:16

Jenny Riddell-Carpenter MP (Suffolk Coastal, Labour)

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Over the weekend are drawn attack was launched targeting a number of regions, including Odessa, which I had the privilege of visiting earlier this year. This is reported to be the biggest drone strike since written is illegal invasion began. Does the Minister agree with me more must be done to secure a ceasefire?

15:16

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

I agree with my honourable friend and she is absolutely right, this was the biggest attack on Britain's illegal invasion of the last 3 1/2 years. These are air attacks that are directed at civilian areas, civilian targets, and I saw myself this week the damage that brings when I stood outside the bombed out building of the British Council in Kyiv and I saw the determination of men and women, military and civilians alike to help define us

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and keep fighting in the face of the invasion. And the Secretary of State

15:17

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And the Secretary of State confirm how this country and our allies will defend their airspace from Russian aggression? For example, will we lend our typhoons will we participate in the cross national F-16 fighter program despite the fact that we do not have F-16s?

15:17

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

We have worked closely with Ukraine to develop new weapons systems to supply the end defence missiles they require, whatever Ukraine is fighting in the invasion we will stand alongside them and we will provide whatever military aid we can. Beyond that, when we can reach a negotiating peace with leading work to prepare a multinational force, willing to stand with Ukraine in peace to secure that piece for the long-term so that Russia never again invades so that Russia never again invades Speaker.

15:18

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

With permission, I shall answer questions 16 and 18 together, with the defence industrial strategy, the Ministry of Defence will foster calibration with industry, academia, creating jobs, enhancing support and adopting sustainable human practices, these measures will boost innovation, resilience and competitiveness while supporting national security and economic growth.

15:18

Steve Yemm MP (Mansfield, Labour)

- -

I welcomed last week's news that Ukraine's largest manufacturer is investing £200 million in a new factory in the UK, creating 500 jobs. This absolutely demonstrates the strength of our partnership with our Ukrainian friends. And the confidence that international companies have in Britain's skilled workforce. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of foreign direct investment in the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

U.K.'s defence base? Can I thank him for his question

15:19

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I thank him for his question and also for celebrating the and also for celebrating the investment we are seeing. Foreign direct investment is a really important component part of building our ecosystem for defence industries, because Britain is the very best place to invest in defence industries, with a talented population, increasing skills, defence spending, and a respected military, the world over. We have a huge opportunity to do even more, and when I announced details of the defence industry strategy, I hope you will be there as we go further.

you will be there as we go further.

15:19

Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)

- -

Midway has a proud tradition with its former dockyard in Chatham. I visited it last week, BEA Systems, and aviation centre in Rochester in my constituency, where we were looking at graduates and apprentices. What more can be done to support graduates and apprentices into defence will the Minister come to the site to look at the work in person?

15:20

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I thank him for his question, we want to see more defence companies look invest more in skills and the Defence Digital strategy we are publishing today, we not only will make further investments in defence technical education colleges, £182 million to deliver that, but we will be providing additional support for school-based activities and indeed university partnerships. I would be very happy to come to Rochester to see the amazing work of the apprentices myself.

15:20

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Shortly before recess, I visited a small precision engineering firm, that is involved in tooling, in the defence industry. They share the challenges they faced in looking at defence contracts. And explained there seems to be no rarity for UK businesses, unlike in France, where they prioritise French businesses. I'm sure the Minister will agree that defence investment boosts growth across our constituencies, would he meet with me at the business to understand how we can boost British visitors in this sector? sector?

15:21

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

As a minister just promoted by the son of a toolmaker, in the reshuffle, it is a very appropriate question to mention. We are providing more of that increase the defence budget, targeting British companies and in particular, British SMEs were the development of the new defence SME hub that will allow more SMEs to access the defence contracts we are providing as part of our growing renewal of Armed Forces. I would be happy meeting her to discuss the business.

15:21

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

- -

I thank the Minister very much for his answers. As a regular visitor to Northern Ireland, he notes there has been significant contract work from the MoD, 200 jobs, and it has also achieved some of that. But there are many other defence companies who could also take advantage. Can the Minister confirmed that those companies will have the same opportunities?

15:22

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I am very happy to say that we are seeking growth in defence businesses in every part of the United Kingdom. And when we launch the Defence Industrial Strategy very shortly, I hope you will be able to see one of the new defence growth zones that will be announcing another island, providing opportunities for young people, to start new and good careers in defence, but also, companies that might not think of themselves as a Defence Committee at the moment, being able to sell in not just the UK Armed Forces but also opportunities selling to our allies across the world.

15:22

Q20. When he plans to publish the Defence Investment Plan. (905521)

Number 22.

15:22

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The SDR sets out the government's vision for the future of defence, to make Britain safe, secure at home, and strong abroad. This is backed by the governor's historic defensive, 2.6% on defence spending from 2027, and as part of the SDR in fermentation, we are developing a 10 year investment defence plan that will be published this autumn.

15:23

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

- -

On Friday, I visited a local business in my Huntington constituency, founded by Simon Thomas, they are usually successful spin out from Cambridge University, developing a manufacture for the next generation, using graphene. These products provide solutions in a range of industries, from quantum computing, to diagnostics. As you can imagine, with world leading technology, there is potential for military operations at the company has already been contacted by NATO allies. Can I ask the military, the new procurement minister, to visit and look at how we can seize the initiative in defence, with the initiative and world leading technology, a real British and Huntington success story.

15:23

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

And I thank him for his continuing championing of not just defence businesses in his constituency, but defence in total. The amount of peak use I have answer from him show his strong interest in this area. I want to see more of our defence budget focus on the novel and innovative technologies, that is what we announced with the defence review, with 10% going to those defence technologies, to secure more jobs will provide world leading innovation that will give us the edge on the battlefield because the nation that innovates the most will be the nation that wins in any conflict, I would be happy to conflict, I would be happy to discuss that further with him.

15:24

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

- -

The East of England has a proud record of defence innovation. Indeed, on my holiday to Lincoln, I stayed at the White Hart hotel where the battle tank was first conceived during the First World War. Would the Minister agree investment in technical colleges of excellence, such as that of Perret Saint Edmunds, were absolutely key for defence innovation. Mark Berry and Saint Edmunds.

15:24

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I have some recommendations for holiday tourism if you would like some as well, but can I say to him he is right to be raising the importance of skills. There is huge opportunities across the nation, in defence industries, but we need the workforce of the future to deliver them, that is why in the Defence Industrial Strategy being announced this afternoon, he will see more investment in skills, not just in defence technical excellence colleges, but in schools and university clusters as well, really maximising the opportunity to enhance our skills a and make defence energy for growth everywhere in the country.

15:25

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

Question 21. her question. The Armed Forces welfare support policy underwent a full review and was published in January 2025, now includes updated information and guidance, to ensure welfare support structures are appropriate, accurate and informative for service personnel and their families for the welfare personnel lies within the chain of command, with commanding officers overseeing the delivery of welfare support units within the units.

15:25

Liz Twist MP (Blaydon and Consett, Labour)

- -

One of Labour's key manifesto commitments was to give our Armed Forces greater representation. Through creation of an Armed Forces Commissioner, promise we have made good on through the passage of the bill last week. How does the Minister expect this to improve the lives of our service personnel and their families?

15:26

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

As the honourable member rightly notes, Armed Forces Commissioner Act, can refer to, received Royal Assent last week, a fantastic step forward. She highlights there is more to do and there are many aspects where service life, where it can make a big difference to service personnel.

15:26

Topical questions: Defence

Question one.

15:27

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

friend, the member for Liverpool so friend, the member for Liverpool so she served as a minister in this government, and in the last Labour government, with great commitment and we thank her for her service. and we thank her for her service. Last week, I travel to Norway, to sign the biggest British warship sign the biggest British warship deal ever. The £10 billion contract that will secure 4,000 jobs, for the that will secure 4,000 jobs, for the next two decades. Last week, I also visited here, my 50 visit to visited here, my 50 visit to Ukraine.

-- My fifth visit to Ukraine. I visited a drone factory and chaired a meeting with the and chaired a meeting with the coalition of the willing, with over 30 defence ministers. The message to 30 defence ministers. The message to Moscow, for one and all, was one of defiance and determination. The Ukrainians will keep fighting Ukrainians will keep fighting Russian aggression and the coalition will step up support for Ukraine and step up preparations for peace in Ukraine. Tomorrow I will co-chair Ukraine.

Tomorrow I will co-chair the meeting for the contact group, the meeting for the contact group, attended by around 50 nations from London, and I will also host, this

15:27

Rt Hon Graham Stuart MP (Beverley and Holderness, Conservative)

- -

week, the meeting of the E5 defence minister is here in London.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr Speaker, when I meet veterans, particularly at veterans breakfast particularly at veterans breakfast Race with me is the issue of homelessness among veterans. They homelessness among veterans. They say what more can we do? I share that question with the Secretary of State. What more can we do to ensure

15:28

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

State. What more can we do to ensure that those who served our country, put their lives on the line, don't find themselves homeless.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I share the pleasure and the honour of attending such breakfast clubs with veterans in my clubs with veterans in my constituency, as well. He is right about the range of concerns they raise. They often do raise homelessness and homeless pressures. The important step in recognising the forces service in local authority housing priorities is our authority housing priorities is our first step. And the £50 million into the system of increasing support for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the system of increasing support for veterans will play a part also. The £10 billion contract from

15:29

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The £10 billion contract from Norway will help guarantee shipbuilding on the Clyde for many decades to come. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the workers of the shipyard in Glasgow and will you show me the government will do everything it can to help will do everything it can to help Glasgow and ship building around the world?

15:29

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

And I thank him but can I thank the workers on the Clyde, for their professionalism. It made the collective ministerial effort across a government much easier, knowing that we have professional, dedicated, and excellent workers on the Clyde, being able to build not just the frigate, but on the opposite side of Scotland as well, supporting workers building the type XXXI frigate as well, and across Scotland, there is a huge future for British shipbuilding and hopefully more export orders as well.

15:29

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

- -

Does the Secretary of State agree with me that recruitment into the Armed Forces, mostly based solely on merit? -- Must be based solely on merit?

15:29

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

I thank the honourable member for his question. As he will know, we must have the absolute best of our country, who are recruited into the Armed Forces, to serve. As he will know, intelligence strategy, because for recruitment, will seek to reach every single committee across the British Isles, perpetuating a narrative that women and those from ethnic minorities, many of whom have proven time and time again, on servers, that they absolutely deserve to be part of our Armed Forces.

The perpetuating narrative that they are there because of some woke policy is doing them a huge disservice.

15:30

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

- -

I totally agree. But, Mr Speaker, isn't that why we should be concerned that the contract for the new Armed Forces recruitment service includes " Annual mandated performance indicators focus on enhancing equality and diversity within the workforce." Annually mandated in the contract. My concern, Mr Speaker, is this. By hardwiring these requirements into the contract, doesn't this risk distorting recruitment as we saw with the RAF if those targets are not hit? Wouldn't it be better to simply scrapped the redtape altogether and focus solely on getting the best people into the Armed Forces, respective of their background.

15:31

Louise Sandher-Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

- -

The member has answered his own question, they are indicators. Indicated is a very different thing to targets, and intelligence strategy seeks to reach out to all communities across these islands. And to do so, we therefore need to monitor how well our narratives and strategy is succeeding. Therefore, if we are having a truly professional strategy, we have to monitor its success in reaching different communities. That's why it is an indicator.

15:31

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

- -

My questions are a little bit like buses this morning. I have spent time knocking on doors and talking with constituency my constituency of Harlow, I spoke with someone who spoke of challenges his son base, suffering from PTSD four to buy nowhere discuss this with the veterans Minister but asking once again to emphasise the importance this government puts on supporting veterans with PTSD and it really links in with part of the work I did in a previous role, supporting veterans out of homelessness.

15:32

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

You are coming across quicker

**** Possible New Speaker ****

than others. This government takes both physical and mental injuries from service seriously for the Waverley seen 34,000 referrals, it's a seen 34,000 referrals, it's a fantastic program that runs across the country, providing mental health service for veterans, I would encourage any veteran out there, he encourage any veteran out there, he would do things I need help, please shout and seek help. It's a step to

15:32

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

shout and seek help. It's a step to It is clear that Vladimir Putin

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is clear that Vladimir Putin remains hellbent on the conquest of Ukraine and it is wider stance on Ukraine and it is wider stance on the recent price Cuts but it must go further and this shows that the UK sent over £500 million in tax receipts to the criminal by continuing to import products derived from Russian coach, so will the Government commit to closing the loophole that is currently filling the permanent office.

15:33

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

We are ready to take further steps and sanctions to close any loopholes to those sanctions and we have a record both under the last Government and this one of being at different of those economic measures Putin's regime.

15:33

Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)

- -

Thank you. Like several colleagues across the House I grew up in the cadets, having gained some smudge firing aeroplanes, shooting rifles, and crucially learning the self-discipline and leadership that brought me to this House and volunteers I have spoken to recently have been over the moon about our plan to increase this by 2030 and asked me to ask the Minister with an increase in the cadet forces how can we make sure that every cadet still has the access to the same opportunities that are limited?

15:34

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I would like to know that that 70 million were going to ensure is going to to increase the standard of access of those cadets across the country.

15:34

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Thank you. I congratulate the honourable and honourable lady on their positions but could the Minister explain to my constituent from a senior Mark Shepherd who is subjected to to a discriminating dismissal from the RAF to die him his whole future career in the RAF by he has been accepted for impact payment button at the discharge dismissal payment with no explanation with the Minister would they review the principles so that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

it remains honest? Liberal Democrats as well.

15:34

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Liberal Democrats as well. I mean I would like to see the details of that case. Please write details of that case. Please write to me separately and I will have a look into it. There's a whole plethora of issues and complexities with some of these policies but I will take this one on and have a look. Please write to me in due course.

15:35

Katrina Murray MP (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, Labour)

- -

We have already highlighted the investment, the very welcome investment on the fourth and ship building and it clearly demonstrates the real benefit of being part of the union. What assessment has the Secretary of State made about other potential export details and what steps they take into make sure that the MoD is making sure they are taking up these opportunities?

15:35

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

And I thank her for her question? The type XXVI deal with Norway showed what is possible when we have a determined export campaign and we are looking at working with a number of our European allies and allies further afield on export deals not just for our larger platform warships but Mr, electronic systems, and a whole range of defence equipment which will create more jobs in Britain and IM happy to discuss that more with her. discuss that more with her.

15:36

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

- -

Pensions forfeiture is very rare for ex-Armed Forces personnel, usually reserved for serious criminal activity or convictions, but isn't it time that the small number who are shamefully fighting for the Russian Federation either direct in Ukraine or through proxies in sub-Saharan Africa or ex-forces, Armed Forces, in this country, have the pensions cancelled?

15:36

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

The honourable member raises a very interesting point. Please write

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to me in due course with some of those examples and we will get into it. Thank you so can the Minister

15:36

Chris McDonald MP (Stockton North, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you so can the Minister outline how the most well welcome outline how the most well welcome Defence Industrial Strategy will ensure we have more public money spent with supply chamber business is in the UK particularly those in the Teeside defence and Stockton and Billingham.

15:36

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

Thank you for the question. There is a real opportunity to grow further the 2,000 directly supported jobs in the north-east very happy to speak to him further but could I encourage him to stay for the Defence Industrial Strategy statement where he will see the further investment that this Government hopes to provide to every nation and indeed the UK.

15:37

Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)

- -

The new nation of 5 1/2 million people, Norway has just signed an order for £10 million worth of the world's best Thai submarine warfare frigates designed and built in Glasgow in Scotland, but despite that and despite Scotland's longer coastline and despite the ingenuity that has been displayed in that product, none of those type XXVI as well be stationed in Scotland unless I run. With the Secretary of State like to tell me I am wrong? Or that these will be stationed in Scotland in the future?

15:37

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

The honourable gentleman is a defence expert, so he knows very well that the type XXVI is replaced the antisubmarine warfare Type 23s definitely when they will be based and they also know they have quick reaction factors and we have Royal Navy submarine force based at Faslane and we have huge investment across Scotland and will do even more by his Government that he backs Hollywood has dividend defence jobs his Government has delivered extra defence jobs for Scotland and will continue to do that.

15:38

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

- -

Thank you. I recently met with my constituent Lance Corporal Sarah Bushby, only the third of a woman to receive the military Cross and shared with me the difficulty of dealing with complex psychological effects of her service and the transformative effect on the foundation. With the minute met with my in hearing about the word foundation?

15:38

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

I completely empathise with that and I would more than happily sit down and talk through the crows of that treatment and save we can expand further.

15:38

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

- -

Thank you very much. In Gosforth we were due to be sold by 2024 but the deadline keeps moving, TIO have not been at all proactive with this giant site that sits emptied doing nothing for the MoD, the taxpayers, or the local economy, another visitor from another Government are suggesting that sites like blockhouse are going to be used to house asylum accommodation. They deserve so much better. With the Secretary of State meet me to discuss a much more innovative future in important site?

15:39

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

You have got to be quick, otherwise no one else will.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the opportunities that begin use the defence of state to contribute to growth in every part of the country, including her own. Thank you. How will the

15:39

Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. How will the Government ensure that shipbuilding expertise and workforce are fully expertise and workforce are fully integrated into the defence into strategy to both strengthen sovereign capability and support skilled jobs in the North West?

15:39

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

I thank her for her question and there is real expertise and opportunities nationwide, those that support not military vessels in the Royal Navy but also those that spend so much of their time working with real fleet axillary vessels, I think there is a real opportunity not just in terms of shipbuilding but also ship repair and I would be very happy to discuss what the opportunities and the Labour conference in Liverpool soon perhaps I can pop over.

15:40

Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)

- -

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. From many veterans this is one of the skulls of service and in a number of cases defective equipment. Will the Minister use their persuasion on the Minister to have a limit inquiry to see the extent of it and whether any other equipment is involved and how we can prevent it happening again. it happening again.

15:40

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

Any issue with your loss or any hearing loss from a man can absolutely apply for compensation through the scheme, Armed Forces compensation scheme and I know there is broader work going on with the specific bits of capability outside of this place.

15:41

Thank you. I welcome the defence technical excellence just announced but we need a skills pathway right across the country. I have working with them in a defence curriculum that can be delivered across colleges and universities nationwide and what plans does the Minister have to support defence learning right across the country? Will he meet with me to see if we can rule out a trial?

15:41

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

- -

My honourable friend is simple prolific in the area that you are seeking to improve defence and I would be very happy meeting her to discuss this further and there will be an announcement on skills and the strategy coming out this afternoon. There was a real opportunity to expand not just tackle educational policies but nationwide.

15:41

Thank you. Will the Secretary of State guarantee that yes or no that no British serviceman or vet veteran will face prosecution for actions

**** Possible New Speaker ****

taken in Northern Ireland while serving their country? As mentioned already we are going

15:42

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As mentioned already we are going to ensure the protections are based to ensure the protections are based in that process and the reality is if I am really honest that if people broke the law they will be held accountable.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And this will be protected.

15:42

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And this will be protected. One final question. Mr Speaker, John people in my constituency are crying out for decent well paying jobs. Especially decent well paying jobs. Especially in the defence sector, so will the secretary of state agreed to meet with me about the order that is desperately needed for our country or jobs across Blackpool and Lancashire?

15:42

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

- -

I will indeed and my honourable friend will be encouraged I hope by the visit I paid to Turkey and the initial agreement that I signed with Turkey for a big new order of typhoons that will be built in Lancashire.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Before we come to the Urgent Question, I shall remind Honourable Question, I shall remind Honourable Members to avoid referring directly to any criminal that occurred before the case, before the court. The the case, before the court. The results are an active application for judicial review relating to for judicial review relating to prescription of Palestine action. I as Mr Speaker decided to grant a waiver in relation to that case as it concerns a matter of public order in which there are significant in which there are significant public interests.

Members are therefore to refer to the case that is in the course of proceedings and is in the course of proceedings and I will now start with standard reading.

15:44

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the proscription of Palestine Action and public protest

**** Possible New Speaker ****

reading. Thank you. I will let everyone

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. I will let everyone

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. I will let everyone leave. Thank you. To ask if the Home Secretary will make a statement on the prescription of Palestine Action and public protest.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr Speaker, anyone that wishes to demonstrate about the humanitarian situation in Gaza or the actions of situation in Gaza or the actions of any Government, including our own, has the absolute freedom together with others and voice their views,

15:44

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

with others and voice their views, provided that they do so within the law. The supporting Palestine and supporting a prescribed terrorist organisation are not the same thing. Vitally important issue of the Palestinian rights should not be co-opted by one organisation that has shown that it is willing to use violence in pursuit of its cause. The clear advice and intelligence given to the then Home Secretary this year was that Palestine Action satisfied the relevant tests in the Terrorism Act of 2,000 and should be prescribed.

Now, if some of those, holding placards in support of Palestine Action may not know the extent of its activities. It has conducted an escalating counter involving intimidation and sustained criminal damage, including two Britons national-security infrastructure. Some of its attacks have involved the use of weapons resulting in alleged violence and serious injuries to individuals stop Palestine Action's members have been charged with violent disorder, grievous bodily harm with intent, actual body harm, criminal damage, and aggravated burglary. Charges that include in the assessment of the independent Crown Prosecution Service the terrorism connection.

Now, these are not the actions of a legitimate protest group and for a Government to ignore expert security assessments advice and recommendations would be highly irresponsible. Were there to be further serious attacks or injuries they would rightly have questions asked about why action had not been taken. Now, the Metropolitan Police has confirmed that a total of 890 arrests were made at a demonstration in central London on Saturday. Most of these were under section 13 of the Terrorism Act 2,000 for displaying articles in support of 33 people were arrested for other offences, including 17 assaults on police officers.

As the Metropolitan police have pointed out, this was in stark contrast to the 20,000 people who peacefully marched and attended the Palestinian solidarity campaign demonstration. Demonstrations of this scale require a significant policing response. The new Home Secretary joined the Commissioner of the Metropolitan police on Saturday to observe the operations, and express her backing for the officers working tirelessly to enforce our laws and maintain order. The fact that some officers were subjected to violence and abuse is utterly shameful.

Mr Speaker, it is completely understandable that people rightly feel very strongly about the situation in Gaza, but supporting or being a member of a proscribed terrorist organisation is a criminal offence and will never be accepted, regardless of the wider context. We all want to suffering in Gaza to end, the remaining hostages returned, we all want to see peace. So I say to the House, we must keep our focus squarely on achieving those aims and not on one harmful group that refuses to abide by our group that refuses to abide by our laws and threatens our public safety.

15:47

Mr Speaker

Can I just say, I don't know who is doing the speeches, but it is three minutes. Every time, I am going to crack down, in future I will begin to stop ministers, shadow ministers, if they don't keep to time. I'm going to get backbenchers in. Does the Minister agree that we will stick to time in the future? Thank you, I am glad there is some acknowledgement.

15:48

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Nearly 1,500 people now have been arrested because of concerns about prescription. There is clearly a problem with violence and intimidation in our politics. And we have to get this right, because public confidence is also falling as well. I am not here as a supporter or defender of Palestine Action and their tactics. I condemn without hesitation abuse, intimidation and attacks on the police, and any political opponent. The case for acting on the group itself was and is strong.

We have seen a pattern of violence at their events, as they have not disassociated themselves from that violence. But we also see police and refugees being targeted for violence, alongside those who want to protest about immigration matters. Banners that say open 'kill matters. Banners that say open 'kill them all,' and groups circulate. This is just not sustainable. For our police or our Criminal Justice Act and. -- For our criminal justice system. There is a difference between people protesting violence and people protesting the use of proscription.

If we continue to arrest those in the second category, the serious of the term terrorism risks losing its meaning. Becoming diluted, rather than strengthened. Proscription was supposed to be about stopping those inciting direct about stopping those inciting direct harm and violence. Going after somebody with a poster, testing the boundaries of liberty, many of whom clearly don't support Palestine Action but feel strongly about Palestinian rights and free speech, confuses rather than clarifies the government's intention. People must be able to protest what is happening in Gaza, and the focus should be on what is happening in Palestine, not on what is in Parliament Square.

This is for us to act. Legislation and public order focuses on specific acts. Proscription orders target specific terrorist groups, nothing sits in between this. Given this, I want to ask the Minister the following. What actions has he had with the police about distinguishing between members of Palestine Action and people concerned with proscription itself. The offence of recklessly encouraging support of a proscribed group runs counter that to that focus on commonality. If he won't abolish the defence, will he talk to the police about any public interest test in using it.

The previous policing minister... previous policing minister...

15:50

Mr Speaker

This is what happens. Please, you were told earlier, I granted it, because I thought it was important to you, you advised it was two minutes. I think you have now minutes. I think you have now finished, or you are just about you.

15:50

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

- -

I do apologise, Mr Speaker, I was invited, that is my full. Terrorism is different from terrorising opponents, but can we get this right for the sake of our democracy?

15:51

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I think it was corrected that it was to come I don't want the department to be blamed. Great,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

thank you. Let me say to the honourable member, I am genuinely grateful for her bringing these issues to the House, these are important matters and it is right ministers are held and it is right ministers are held to account for them. Let me say to her first point, I am sure the whole house will agree with the remarks house will agree with the remarks she made about violence and intimidation in our politics, they have absolutely no place and I am have absolutely no place and I am sure she will be aware there is a significant body of work taking significant body of work taking place across government, with the task force, to ensure that all of task force, to ensure that all of our elected representatives are able to do their duty and represented their constituents, without fear or favour, and that is something that this government takes very seriously this government takes very seriously indeed.

She makes a number of points and I will struggle to respond to all of them. Let me just say all of them. Let me just say something that I know she will understand, that the police are operationally independent of government. And of course we remain government. And of course we remain in regular contact but I think it's important to take the opportunity to thank the police for the important thank the police for the important work they do. They come under a huge work they do.

They come under a huge amount of scrutiny, rightly so, and I think we saw this weekend, an impeccable police operation were brave officers stood and did their duty and 17 of them at least were allegedly assaulted in the line of duty. I think the final thing to say to her is around drawing the distinction, which she will well understand, about the absolute right with anybody in our country has to express their concern about the desperately difficult situation in the Middle East and more explicitly in Gaza.

The ability to go to the street and to join with others and express individual concern or collective concern about unfolding events, whether in this country or further afield, it's an absolute cornerstone of our democracy and this government would never do anything to get in the way of that, and I think that tens of thousands of people took to the streets this weekend and were able to express their concern in an entirely lawful way. She asked me about whether we are seeking to review any of the elements within the Terrorism Act.

I think it is worth pointing her to , by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, who said in a published article in regard to Palestine Action, " There is no way ordinary criminal law would be effective against funding, training, and recruitment, in tackling this. The government have to ensure public safety and that is what this safety and that is what this government will seek to do." government will seek to do."

15:54

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

- -

Of course, we, in, I hope with everybody in this House, support unequivocally the right to peaceful process, including on issues , who remain captive and civilians in Gaza, whose plight I know concerns us all. But in exercising that right to protest, violence is never acceptable, and Palestine Action have committed deliberate criminal damage against various premises, they have used a sledgehammer to attack a police officer, and they have deliberately sabotaged RAF planes. No matter how strongly people feel about an issue, and whatever the rights and wrongs of that issue, using violence to advance the political agenda is never acceptable.

That's not how we do things in this country. We settle things through debate and we settle things through election. The security minister has given house assurances about the necessity of this measure. I haven't been offered a briefing on that, but the security minister commands widespread respect across the House and members will take us assurances seriously. I would ask him to give an assurance that the police are taking all possible preventative action against Palestine Action, where they may be planning future attacks against premises, or future acts of violence, including using the offence of conspiracy to commit public nuisance, under which the police have quite wide-ranging powers.

I will join the security minister and extending my thanks to the police for the difficult work they do, keeping us safe. I would finally, Mr Speaker, use this opportunity to express my support for a process that took place on Sunday in Parliament Square. The campaign against anti-Semitism March which I addressed. It was regrettable that neither the Home Secretary, nor a senior government minister, addressed that March, so could the security minister take this opportunity to express the government's resolve to combat anti-Semitism wherever it is found.

15:56

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

Could I say that I am very grateful to the shadow home secretary for his remarks and for the tone of them. And in response to his final point, yes, let me absolutely take the opportunity on behalf of His Majesty's government, to state our absolute abhorrence against anti-Semitism. Wherever it rears its ugly head. And I hope he knows that this government will do everything it possibly can to stand against the forces of racism wherever they seek rear their ugly head.

I agree with him that violence is never acceptable in terms of pursuing a political agenda and I am pleased we were able to establish a consensus in this House in that regard. Let me just say to him in regard to the point he made about briefings. Of course, he knows I would be happy to brief him. We briefed the shadow minister, back in July, but he knows we would be happy to brief him on Privy Council terms whenever he should wish.

I am also able to give him the assurances he seeks, about the work the police are doing. He notes that the former Home Office minister, police are independent full support I can give him that assurance that police will be taking all necessary measures to guard against future attacks. Very happy to speak to him about these matters further, but I'm grateful for his support for these matters today. today.

15:57

Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)

- -

As I understand it, the conviction of those simply displaying proscribed groups names have been extremely rare and unless there has been clear evidence of an intensity promoted groups more extreme actions. If this is the case, and as it is clear that the act of protest and civil disobedience seen in recent days are not act which would ordinarily form part of the case for prescription why don't the police simply stop the arrests? arrests?

15:58

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I do want to take the opportunity to acknowledge the difficult job that the police do. And in my experience, both recently and over a longer period of time, I think the police have done an excellent job, often under very difficult circumstances. I do think it's important that we consider proportionality. These are operational judgements that have to be made by the police, often on the ground, often under pressure, under difficult circumstances. But I do think it's important we consider that we will not tolerate the kind of activity we have seen in recent days and weeks, from an organisation, for example, motivated by Islamist extremism, or an organisation motivated by an extreme right-wing ideology.

Similarly, we cannot tolerate that activity from Palestine Action, this government Palestine Action, this government will support the police in doing the difficult job they have been tasked to do. to do.

15:59

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

- -

The right to peaceful process is a cornerstone of liberal democracy, but the events over the weekend have set a dangerous precedent. They risk having an impact on free speech and legitimate protest in the UK. The arrest of 800 protesters under deterrent laws, is deeply alarming. The Lib Dems warned that this would be exactly what happened when the Conservatives expanded terrorism powers in 2018. There is no doubt those using violence, anti-Semitic abuse or hate speech, must face the consequences.

But these crimes are already covered by existing law. Mr Speaker, it cannot be right back Sibley displaying a placard in support of a proscribed organisation, while peacefully protest and can result in a conviction, of up to six months in prison. Can the Minister urgently review terrorism legislation specifically as it is impacting the right to protest peacefully, to ensure it is proportionate and contains the nuance it so clearly needs.

16:00

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am grateful to her, as I always am, for the sensible and reasonable tone with which she makes her remarks, but I have to say, I do not agree the events of this weekend have had a chilling effect on democracy. Quite the opposite. Tens of thousands of people have come to London to exercise their absolute right to demonstrate about matters about which they are concerned. The overwhelming majority of people who came to London were able to do so, in an entirely reasonable and lawful way.

It's only a very tiny minority of people who haven't been able to do it in that way and have deliberately sought to get arrested. She makes an entirely reasonable point to ask about necessity and proportionality. Whether the government intends to review existing legislation, and I think that is a entirely reasonable point for her to raise, she has raised it previously, we have discussed it and I know her leader races over summer recess. Let me say to her that of course, we look very carefully at legislation.

A government doesn't currently have plans to amend existing legislation, not least in light of government proceedings in relation to Palestine Action and the ongoing judicial review, it would not be appropriate to carry out review at this time. We think the U.K.'s counterterrorism legislation does strike the right balance between protecting National Security individual freedoms including the right to the freedoms of expression, under article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. You know the high regards with which I hold Jonathan Hall, the independent reviewer.

She also knows the framework, legislative framework, is subject to independent statutory oversight by the independent reviewer. The government will of course consider any recommendations he seeks to make. I have advised the honourable lady previously to get in touch with her, and I know and I touch with her, and I know and I think she has, and I know she will want to look very carefully what he says.

16:02

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP (Clapham and Brixton Hill, Labour)

- -

Those arrested were merely holding signs and wearing T-shirts holding general support to a group that don't come close to the loosest definition of terrorism but meanwhile pundits and colonists felt free to discuss policy action it doesn't seem fair that people that can get away with it, as long as I can do so in for the DV camera. Can the Minister explain how the law is being applied, if fairly, and where people are allowed to show support for Palestine Action, it's clear some people are allowed and not others.

others.

16:02

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I know the honourable lady has a long-standing interest concerning these matters. I can give her a share of the law is being applied As above the law and I think it is important to think about how we would collectively seek to respond to those behaving in a similar way but underpinned by very different causes extreme Islamist terrorism, extreme right-wing ideologies. If people were demonstrating on behalf of those organisations in the same way we have seen people demonstrating in support of Palestine Action I think it absolutely would the case if people would want the piece to be working in the way that they have seen them act over this weekend.

I say to her again the law has been applied firmly, nobody is above the law, and the police need to be able to ensure that they are able to enforce it without fear or favour, and that is what I think they did over the what I think they did over the Thank you very much. The burden for Thank you very much. The burden for policing these protests is falling on certain forces more than others and we know from when we had the disorder last summer that was the case as well.

Can the Minister give case as well. Can the Minister give some reassurance that the Home Office has provided the support that is needed to those forces to ensure is needed to those forces to ensure that they can manage the protest but also that it does not distract from the day-to-day policing? I think that this committee raises a very important point that yes, I can give her the reassurances that she seeks, she is right, the recent activity has provided tequila burdens on particular forces. The Home Secretary at wide and of course the Policing Minister according the works very closely with the police to ensure that they have got the necessary resources that they do for the important job that they have to do.

16:04

David Taylor MP (Hemel Hempstead, Labour)

- -

Thank you. Last August a police officer was hospitalised after being hit with a sledgehammer whilst responding to a Palestine Action attack on a business near Bristol, a fact that was absent from the debate that we had when we prescribed the organisation recently, the attackers had sledgehammers, axis, whips, and other home-made weapons. With the Mr Gray that this crosses the line of any legitimate processed into terrorism? terrorism?

16:05

Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)

- -

The Minister has said no one is above the law and that violence is never the answer and I agree with him and I know that he believes the law should be wielded with integrity, is a winner we going to see description of violent settler groups in the West Bank? Many of whom are perpetrating a reign of terror on innocent Palestinians in that part of the world and to maybe economies and raising funds in the economies and raising funds in the Well the right honourable gentleman Well the right honourable gentleman is a very experienced member of this House and has served as a minister in the Home Office, so I am sorry to have to put my response to him in have to put my response to him in this way, but he will understand why I do so, that we never comment about matters relating to future prescription, but the words he has spoken about I know have been heard spoken about I know have been heard by colleagues in other Government departments as well and he makes his points with great consistency, he has raised them with me previously has raised them with me previously and I know that he will understand that there is a very long-standing that there is a very long-standing protocol across a number of Governments that do not talk about future prescription activity.

future prescription activity.

16:06

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

- -

Thank you and I thank the Minister for his response this afternoon and I do concur with some of the comments raised by my Noble Friend in terms of people being arrested including my constituents, some of whom were protesting peacefully and I just wanted to come back to the impact as a central London MP IMC responses from my local police been drawn away to deal with the process and what the frontline police officers they want their issues around this to be solved because of the Minister will understand the sheer scale of concern in terms of making sure that police locally are able to get a piece with that, so just coming back to The Chair of the Committee, can the Minister ensure that those ongoing discussions are happening with the police including The Chair of the police Confederation that was on the phone today to say that these protests are not sustainable? protests are not sustainable?

16:07

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am very grateful to her because I think as The Chair of the Select Committee said she raises a very important point that she will absolutely understand the importance that this Government attaches to the group's agenda and we are working and I give her reassurance that we are working very closely with the Metropolitan Police and other police forces right around the country to ensure that they have got resources they need to police these kind of protests or activity alongside the other activities that they are required.

The Home Secretary and I take these matters very seriously and I give her an absolute assurance that we will make sure that police do have the necessary resources.

16:07

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Given the scale of rest over the weekend and the Minister stating he has no intention to review legislation, will he commit to an independent review into the use of terrorism legislation against people who have been protesting to see if they are actually fit for purpose?

16:08

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

Hopefully she had the response that I gave a moment ago about how it would be appropriate to get into a process and review at this particular moment because of ongoing legal proceedings. I do think that we are incredibly fortunate to have Jonathan here with the independent review of terrorism legislation. Someone that brings a weight of authority and credibility to this process. And I know that he has particular views on this and I would invite her and other members to look closely at what he has said about it.

it.

16:08

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

- -

Thank you. I wonder if the great honourable member would agree with me that the continued mass arrests of peaceful protesters, many of whom are protesting about restriction of Palestine Action but would not for a moment support the activities of Palestine Action something that we should distinguish and something that we should be advising prosecutors about and police. Not least because if they are only around these arrests it risks churning at the rightful protest about the difficult situation in Palestine and Gaza have referred to Ulster

16:09

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I think the honourable member does raise really important points. I mean, for clarity, it is an offence to display support for Palestine Action but it is not an offence to criticise the Government decision to prescribe. It is a difficult judgement to have to be made by the police on the ground, but give her categorical reassurance that this Government will do absolutely everything to get in the way of somebody's absolute right to protest about that matter about which they are concerned and the many respects I think it was incredible how to see tens of thousands of people take to the streets, expressed their concern, and do it in an entirely peaceful and lawful way and I hope that will continue.

continue.

16:10

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

- -

As I have indicated previously I have my doubts about whether terrorism is a label is most suited to a group that is certainly criminal, certainly violent, and arguably seditious in its attacks on our military but I have a positive suggestion to make. Would the Minister undertake fully to brief the chairman and members of the Intelligence and Security Committee Parliament that I used to Chair but on which I no longer serve because if they were able to see information declared publicly and to say to us that they were satisfied with the designation I, for one, would find that reassuring.

16:11

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am always very grateful to the right honourable gentleman who speaks with a real wisdom about these matters, but I can give him those assurances we have been in contact with the committee that we used to Chair and they consist of some incredibly experienced and wise parliamentarians, and we seek to take their counsel at every opportunity. Yes, we have engaged with them and will continue to do so about this and other matters.

16:11

Steve Yemm MP (Mansfield, Labour)

- -

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Whilst Palestine Action waged their campaign of intimidation and went about damaging military bases with very little impact on the Middle East, this week the Government will host President Hertzog discussions on a more peaceful future for Palestinians and Israelis alike. I wonder if the Minister would agree with me that like Palestine Action this Government is actually taking genuine and serious steps to support peace in the Middle East. peace in the Middle East.

16:12

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

We are grateful to him for his comments and I completely agree with him. I think there is an absolute point of consensus in this place and I hope much further afield about the urgent need to secure peace in the Middle East. This Government, led by the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, would do everything that we possibly can to support that process.

16:12

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

- -

It seems the optics of engineering priests alongside hundreds of peaceful protesters would be absolutely awful for the Government and in Scotland over the Government because police Scotland seem to deploy a much more consolatory community-based approach, so does he support operational independence across the UK and police forces feel it is in their interest to have different Metropolitan Police he will support them and there will be no Government interference or combinations. interference or combinations.

16:13

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am grateful to him for his question today and for his engagement over the course of the summer. I would give him absolute assurance that of course we believe in the importance of the independence of the police and they do have to make some very difficult judgements, but I hope that he also agrees with me that nobody should be above the law. There is not an age limitation with regard to these particular offences, and the police have difficult judgements to make, but in the name I think that they have acted proportionally and they have acted without fear of favouring policing.

16:13

Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)

- -

Mr Speaker, this weekend alone almost 900 people were arrested, several of whom are in my constituency. The Terrorism Act brought in because NHS consultants hold a placard, yet the police are now in the position where this is exactly what they are doing weekend after weekend. Will the Minister consider the views of international human rights experts at the UN human rights Commissioner was to prescript the ban as disproportionate, unnecessary, and will acknowledge the concerns that political decisions must be open to political challenge? Otherwise we risk a massive loss of confidence in our democracy.

16:14

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

Thank you. I completely agree about the point of political challenge, that is why we are here today to debate the decision and the policing around it. I hope that she will understand that the Government have, as we always seem to do, acted in good faith. The advice the Government received was clear and unambiguous. Palestine Action is concerned in terrorism, its members have demonstrated a willingness or intention to conduct a serious violence against the personal pursuit of their cause.

Under those particular circumstances, the Government has a responsibility and a duty to act. She will know, also, and I mentioned this previously, that the independent review terrorism legislation has been widely quoted about the response, the actions of the Government have taken, and he concluded in a recent article that there is no way that ordinary criminal law would have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

been effective against this organisation. Does the Minister agree that

16:15

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Does the Minister agree that whilst in this case prescription may whilst in this case prescription may be finely balanced, the law must be upheld, whether you like it or not, and whoever you are and wherever you are? And does he share my concern, therefore, that there does appear to be some reasonable disparity in the interpretation put on the law in this case as evidenced by the differences in the rates at which people were arrested across this

16:15

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am grateful to him as I always am for his question. I acknowledge the assessment he made about the decision being finally balanced. I know that he would understand, should this, or any government, have

16:16

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

taken a different approach, we would no doubt be here discussing and debating the particular reason the government had decided not to proscribe. These are difficult judgements, but under the circumstances I have described, the Home Secretary did exactly the right thing in taking the decision that she did. In terms of his point about regional disparities for he will further comment I just made a moment ago, about the independence, but if he sees particular things that are not in the spirit of that, please would he write to me, I would be happy to look.

16:16

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

- -

Like so many people, myself included, looking at the famine in Gaza and the plans for the West Bank, with a sense of complete desperation and lack of agency, people want to demonstrate that desperation through peaceful protest. Seeing the mass arrest of people holding placards is difficult people holding placards is difficult for many of us. I understand the nature of proscription meaning showing support is criminal offence, when the access so peaceful a cause so desperate, at the time of voting, this was not made clear to us.

When assessing whether to proscribe Palestine Action, the government take into account free association, including an article 1011 of the HCR, and the wider cohort expressing support for the wider organisation.

16:17

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I agree with him on the point he makes about peaceful protest that I can give him absolute assurance that the Home Secretary, in taking this and any decision, axon advice, and carefully considers a range of different factors. He is right to talk about peaceful protest. There was peaceful protest taking place in London over the course of this weekend and that was very good to see. But it was also the case that the particular demonstration, where there was a significant number of arrests, there were also 33 people arrested for separate offences, including 17 alleged assaults on police officers.

None of us want to see that kind of violent activity, and we will work closely with the price, to ensure that people do have the ability to protest in a peaceful way. That is the cornerstone of our democracy. But it is entirely unacceptable that anybody should seek to assault a police officer.

16:18

Bobby Dean MP (Carshalton and Wallington, Liberal Democrat)

- -

I hear the distinction that the Minister is attempting to make this afternoon. But the fact remains that almost a thousand largely peaceful protests were arrested in London this weekend. And I'm sure, when we look back on this, we are going to conclude it was not only a huge waste of police resources, but a chilling moment for free speech in this country. Given the government seems so convinced that these people are associated with terrorism, will they commit to publishing data on how many, what proportion of those arrested, will be actually charged

**** Possible New Speaker ****

with terrorism -related offences? I can say to him, hopefully in a

16:19

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I can say to him, hopefully in a constructive way, the only distinction I am seeking to make is distinction I am seeking to make is between those who break the law, and those who do not. And we saw a very interesting comparison over the course of this weekend. Tens of thousands of people came to protest and were able to do so, were able to protest their concerns about the terrible situation in Gaza, without supporting a proscribed organisation. And there is, as I said in my earlier remarks, a big difference between being able to protest in support of a cause that is legitimately held, set against expressing support for a proscribed organisation, which is a criminal offence, the police have an absolute duty to enforce the law, and that is what they did.

16:20

Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)

- -

Mr Speaker, nobody is above the law, yet the Metropolitan police reports that a total of 857 people were arrested under section 13 of the Terrorism Act over the weekend, the vast majority for simply holding placards, stating I oppose genocide, I support Palestine Action. Can the Minister confirm whether the government has received any legal advice concerning the implications of a visit from Israeli President, particularly given his recent particularly given his recent Sidings of artillery shells for Sidings of artillery shells for use in Gaza, and will the applications led by the Israeli president to visit the UK this week be rejected

**** Possible New Speaker ****

or will he be subject to a police investigation if he does arrive? Understand why the honourable

16:21

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Understand why the honourable gentleman has asked me the question he has. I hope you will understand he has. I hope you will understand he is asking me about matters which I don't have ministerial responsibility. So, he will also understand the government also receives a range of legal advice across different departments. The purpose of this response today a look at the issue of proscription and the recent protest activity. I can give him and the House absolute assurance that this is a government that believes in upholding the law.

This is a government that believes in the importance of international law and we will work with our allies and partners, to ensure that international law, domestic law, is upheld.

16:21

Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)

- -

On this day, 89 years ago, three founding members handed themselves RAF school, today, they would likely be branded terrorists for non-direct action. Lumping Palestine Action with Maniacs Murder Cult and Russian imperial movements was calculative, cynical and disproportionate. It has led to the arrest of hundreds, if not thousands, of protests. What will he think will be the consequences, now that his government seems more interested in silencing protest, then maintaining policing by consent?

16:22

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I struggle to follow the logic of the right honourable ladies -- Lady's question, given thousands were able to exercise their democratic right to protest. This government has not done anything that interferes with anybody's lawful right to express their concern about an issue. To pick up on one of the points you made, let me give her an absolute assurance, we didn't group the three proscribed organisations together for the organisations together for the reasons...

She is completely mistaken. She has asked me a question. She might want to listen to the answer. There are two reasons why that decision was taken. Frankly, the first is because this is a government that has a busy legislative agenda, and we need to be efficient with precious parliamentary time. Perhaps the second and more important reason is because this government doesn't look at the ideological origin of the threat. We will do what we need to do, to keep the public safe, regardless of where the threat comes.

That is the right approach, it is evenhanded, and it was on that basis that we proceeded.

16:23

Dr Simon Opher MP (Stroud, Labour)

- -

In recent weeks, a number of my constituents have been arrested, many of them are over 70. And the whole situation seems to have become slightly ridiculous. Would he agree with me, actually, that proscribing heroes using a sledgehammer to crack a NUT.

16:24

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

With great respect, I don't mean to be flippant, I think it is a rather unfortunate use of sledgehammer, given recent events. I don't agree with him, given the actions, the government has been necessary and proportionate, for reasons I have explained earlier on. And I do worry there are a number of people who seek to express support for an organisation who do not fully understand the activities that that organisation has engaged in recent times. times.

16:24

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Mr Justice Chamberlain granted the judicial review on the basis the Home Secretary had not consulted Palestine Action before proscribing. The judge ruled it was reasonably arguable that there was a duty to consult Palestine Action before proscribing it, as reported in the garden. -- In the Guardian. Meeting the high threshold of proscription in the Terrorism Act, why should there be a duty to consult before proscribing?

16:25

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I hope you understand that given their ongoing legal proceedings, it would be completely inappropriate for me to comment about any legal rulings or judgements that have been made. But I can give him an assurance, that in terms of making the decision, all of the necessary legal and expert advice was very carefully considered. There is a formal legal process that enables any organisation that is proscribed, to seek a legal right to address. The government is very supportive of any organisation that has been proscribed pursuing a legal avenue of appeal.

That is their right to do so at this government would never get in the way a legal right.

16:26

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

- -

Is my honourable friend agree that this is not a case of people's democratic rights to process being detailed, because a democratically elected government and Parliament have legislated, members have proscribed Palestine Action lawfully, and now police enforce the law, free from political interference. The law is clear, people are no longer allowed to support this organisation and to do so risks unlawful arrest -- Lawful arrest. Nothing is being done for people supporting Palestinians, as long as they do so peacefully and within the law.

within the law.

16:26

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

I am grateful to him and completely agree with all the points he has made. And he knows, and I know, and I'm sure the House knows, that had the government taken a different decision, I would be Stateira at the Dispatch Box, seeking to justify that particular seeking to justify that particular decision as well.

16:27

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

- -

Could I ask the Minister to reflect for a moment, this is the largest number of people arrested, ever since the Terrorism Act 2,000 came into force. Those people who were processing on Saturday were protesting at the horror of a genocide in Gaza, and British complicity of it with arms sales and military cooperation and support. They are deeply concerned about Civil Liberties in our society. And feel that legislation rushed through this department actually damages the right to civil, peaceful protest in our society forced the Minister knows the weight of history is against him for stopping notes that, some point, the government will have to review this legislation, otherwise the situation will simply get worse and worse.

Can he not bring himself to say now, they are going to look at it again, review the whole situation again, and not proscribed peaceful protest within our society, but except we have a history behind that brought us all here, which is built on protest and dissent.

16:28

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

The right honourable gentleman has been a member of this House for a very, very long time, so he will know that this legislation wasn't rushed through Parliament. It came through Parliament in the same way other proscription actions have come through over many, many years. Let me see perhaps two points of consensus. The first is about freedom of speech was that I don't know what he was up to a week on, I have a sneaking suspicion he may have been on the streets of London and good luck to him, it is his absolute democratic right to protest in the way he is well known for doing so.

This government hasn't done anything to stand in the way of him and his colleagues to do that. But let me just say one other thing to him, because although, he and I may disagree on many things, I hope, as supporters of the trade union movement, we do agree on the importance of safety of people in the workplace. So, he asks me to consider something, perhaps I could ask him to consider the importance of safeguarding people's safety and security in the workforce.

Not something the organisation we are discussing today has given much consideration to.

16:29

Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)

- -

Hundreds of people have now been arrested on terror offences, facing up to 14 years imprisonment. For no more than peacefully holding a placard. Most are elderly, many are healthcare workers, priests, and ordinary working people, all prepared to risk severe punishment for doing what our government has failed to do. This proscription of Palestine Action is an authoritarian attack on the rights process. It is absurd, unworkable, and unsustainable. Will the Minister and the new Home Secretary consider the government's position?

16:32

Dan Jarvis MP, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Barnsley North, Labour)

- -

What this government will do,

Feed Live - Click to view video

Return to start of debate - Return to top of page