Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Sally Jameson MP, Parliamentary Secretary and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Doncaster Central, Labour )

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. an update on the administration of the Civil Service Pension Scheme. I must declare my own interest as I hold the Civil Service pension with Hmpps. The previous government, as we know, awarded this contract to capita in 2023 in response to the significant performance issues. Earlier this year, the government intervened to increase scrutiny and oversight on the scheme's administration. Capita committed to recovery milestones for April and for June, both of which they failed to meet. In June, we exercised our contractual rights and mandated capita to produce a rectification plan and a capital expense to appoint a remedial adviser to assess this plan.

The government also appointed an independent auditor to assess the effectiveness of capita operational arrangements. Up to July. Capita committed to this House to deliver recovery milestones in September, which they state they have achieved. However, I want to be clear, Mr. Speaker, that this does not reflect members lived experience or my own correspondence. These were self-imposed, self determined and self-assured targets. Many hon. Members, unions and scheme members have written to me asking why, if capita have met these targets, they still don't have their, quote, their pension remains unpaid and why they are struggling with no income despite years of commitment and public service.

Building on the good work undertaken by my predecessors, the right hon. Member for Torfaen and the hon. Member for Southampton Test, in holding to account, I have taken further clear and definitive action to continue this and ensure capita have their feet held to the fire. Mr. speaker, we have seen some small improvement on priority cases, with capita now processing more than they receive, and I would like to acknowledge that staff on the ground who are working in capita are working hard in difficult conditions. We are also seeing some slow improvement on technology, with capita confirming the increased volumes are being managed through automation, and they're rolling out new tools allowing eligible spouses and dependents to view pension payslips and make online enquiries.

However, Mr. Speaker, the question remains why has it taken this scale of government intervention to force capita to act? Since taking up this role, I've met with the CEO and his senior team twice and on two occasions I have expressed in no uncertain terms my outrage at their performance throughout this contract. We were promised, and I quote, the most AI enabled pension service. And it's fair to say, Mr. Speaker, that capita have comprehensively failed to deliver on that commitment. This progress overall has been abysmal. Complex issues remain unresolved for too long. 1800 cases for over a year.

And while some individuals have more than one case, there is still too many members and family left waiting in limbo. The administration issues also have had a knock on effect, with the progress on the work of the McCloud remedy by capita, and I will update the House on that issue next month. The House will be aware that my predecessors rightly directed capita to appoint a remedial adviser and Cabinet Office to import an independent auditor through the government internal audit agencies. My officials have this month received the remedial Advisory report and the auditor's interim report, giving independent and objective perspectives.

It will not shock this House that the Independent Advisers report clearly shows that capita rectification planning was wholly insufficient. Their technology was weak and their ambition was falling well short of restoring the quality services that members deserve. While poor performance has been evident, the reports now provide a detailed and actionable recommendations, including the need for a new recovery plan for the whole service. With a roadmap for technology and a focus on data, the Remedial Advisory report concluded that in a service whose success firmly relied on automation, capita did not deliver the promised technology that they had not been applying the right techniques to understand demand, productivity and capacity, and they had not put in place effective mechanisms to detect and escalate failure.

Well, I have certainly detected a lot of failure as of many people in this House. But for the sake of those dedicated, dedicated people who are waiting their pensions, we must not allow this service to fail. Fail them further. It is clear that capita cannot do this on their own, and a new plan is needed. Mr. speaker, I agreed with capita executives that Cabinet Office officials would work with capita to develop a credible, workable and realistic recovery plan for which capita alone will be held to account. I can confirm that for the first time, Cabinet Office officials now have full access to capita systems and data.

I have put in place expert teams to work alongside, and I agree priorities improve quality processes and ensure pensions are paid correctly. The new recovery plan is made up of five Workstreams 1 to 3, looking at cases of differing levels of complexity. The fourth one ensuring significant exercises like the McCloud remedy are not overlooked, and the fifth one on technology to tackle the issues around infrastructure that support delivery. We will require capita to evidence their focus on fixing complex cases, ensuring this plan makes a difference. That Capita's original plan could not capita have committed that every member with complex, complex case will be written to in the next month, ensuring that they understand where they are in the system and how they will be supported.

Old cases will no longer be allowed to sit on backlogs without progress. Any quote or payment stuck will be actively managed through this revised complex case management. Capita's new plans will be further supported by challenging advice from a new group of senior experts, drawn from across the civil service and led by the Cabinet Office. These problems were not created by civil servants, but it will be through the expertise, commitment and perseverance of the civil service that the operational delivery is supported and we shape the solutions. With capita, capita must be open and transparent and we will be publishing fortnightly scheme updates on the Pension scheme website.

With the number of complex cases outstanding broken down by age, the service levels for straightforward cases and the number of other tasks that are outstanding. We will do so until performance has been stabilised. I want to be clear that whilst we are leaning in with expertise, capita remains absolutely accountable for service delivery. They will need to deliver their contractual obligations and pay for the for their failures. We will continue to apply commercial levers to recover costs incurred, including holding back nearly £10 million of statements throughout this crisis. Hon. Members have shown why they and their teams are so valued by their constituents.

And to support this, we've delivered over 1300 surgeries for more than 320 MPs, and I will provide further updates on the progress of our recovery plan in the coming months. In addition to the immediate ongoing recovery plan, I want to update the House on the longer term strategy for the scheme following our previous commitments to Parliament. My officials have led an extensive programme of engagement with trade unions and practitioners and experts. The evidence from those sessions was clear restoring operational resilience and member trust has to be the approach. I have instructed my officials to evaluate the viability of a range of future delivery options, including insourcing, all core business operations.

There are a number of different insourcing models in operation across the public sector that we will learn from, and we will consider which is the best approach to take for the Civil Service Pension Scheme and all the other schemes that it interactive interacts with. Once those assessments are complete, I will return to the House to provide further update. But in the here and now, capita must deliver. Mr. speaker, this government inherited a broken, outsourced administration. We cannot replace a complex pension operation overnight. But let me be operation overnight. But let me be clear. This government will hold capita to account.

Continue to apply the most stringent commercial apply the most stringent commercial levers, and we will not rest until every civil servant receives a pension they are entitled to. I pension they are entitled to. I commend this statement to the House.

15:56

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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The Minister. Mike Wood.

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Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister both for the briefing that she gave to me and to the Liberal Democrat spokesperson last week, and for early sight of her statement. I note that it arrived statement. I note that it arrived unusually good time and hope that other ministerial offices will learn from her good example. But learn from her good example. But the latest figures in the government's 5th of October update are deeply concerning. As of the are deeply concerning. As of the end of last month, more than 1900 cases in four priority categories were more than 100 days old.

Of those, just over 1500 were labelled non workable, with a further two death in service cases in data triage. That includes 1049 bereavement cases and eight ill health retirement cases, all classified as non workable. This is not acceptable. Recent reporting also raised the prospect of bereaved families facing severe tax consequences because death in service benefits were delayed. Reports have suggested that the government plans to make those bereaved families claw back this money via the Pensions Ombudsman, rather than preventing HMRC from taxing delayed claims. And to make matters worse, the Pensions Ombudsman itself estimates an 18 month wait to resolve cases.

So will the Minister reassure this House and all those watching outside that this is not the case and bereaved families will not have to proactively claw back that tax. Mr. speaker, the Minister mentions the delivery of surgeries to many members of this House. Last month, my casework team had a surgery with a member of staff there expecting to come away with updates to pass on to effective constituents. But for all the cases that were discussed, each had no updates whatsoever, leaving them feeling that the surgery was a total waste of time. And I know that other hon.

Members have reported similar experiences. What hope do affected constituents have when reaching out to capture themselves? When they are prepared to tell our teams that nothing has been done on their cases? Mr. speaker, the warnings about capital were there in black and white are not only from earlier last year, sorry. Earlier this year, as the Minister suggested, Captor's predecessor, my CSP contract was extended to December 2025 to allow a two year transition. Obviously more than 18 months, sorry, nearly 18 months of that under the current government. There were several milestones during those 18 months. The captor failed, but the new government chose not to act.

The National Audit Office, June 2025 report identified many missed milestones and risks around operational readiness and data transfer, and the Public Accounts Committee subsequently warned of further missed milestones and the need for contingency plans. But still, the news the new government chose to allow the new contract to go ahead and gave it that final go ahead. Mr. speaker, there have been issues reported with capita across several government contracts. Now, under the new provisions in the 2023 Procurement Act. The government could refer capita to the Department Review Service for investigation to prevent them from winning further similar contracts.

Does the Minister plan to do so? The people affected by these failings are people who did everything that was asked of them. They paid into the scheme and they served this country as civil servants. They should not have to chase their own pensions, borrow for basic bills or wait months for basic updates. So I ask the Minister to give the House clear deadlines and to set out how every affected member will receive their payments, and to explain why she is so confident that the assurances the captain now give her will deliver results. When the assurances of improvements that were so repeatedly given to this House by her predecessor have amounted to so very little.

For those retired public servants who cannot wait any longer. And finally, I agree with the Minister that capita should be made to put things right. Cancelling the contract would result in more disruption, but surely there is only so long that she will put up with failed targets and broken promises of improvements. So what preparations improvements. So what preparations and contingencies will her department put in place for? If it is necessary to cancel this contract, and what criteria will she use for deciding when we reach that point?

16:01

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Mr. opposition spokesperson for his questions. And to start, I'm not making excuses for capita, and I'm not here to defend their triaging of workable or unworkable cases. I made it very clear to the capita CEO, when I met with him on two occasions that I don't recognise those categories is either done or it's not. Frankly. So I will not make excuses for that. In relation to the cases around bereaved families, particularly for those under 75. The Cabinet Office have identified there is a very small number who are at the 18 month point, and there is a huge focus going to make sure they are resolved before it hits two years, and they will continue to do that with any cases that might fall into that bracket, so that we don't find ourselves in a position where anyone would end up paying tax as a result of having to wait two years for their pension issues to be resolved.

In relation to the casework surgeries, I understand that sometimes the answers people get back are not satisfactory, and that's because Capita's performance overall is not satisfactory. So all the casework surgeries can do is let people know where they are in the system. And for a lot of people, that is not good. And so we're continuing to work with the rectification plan to improve the service. And that should see over time, people have a better experience with casework surgeries as frankly, the answers should be getting better. In relation to why I think this rectification plan will be different from previous plans that capita have set out, is because this time the Cabinet Office have access to all the data and to the Cabinet, the Cabinet, the capita systems.

They have taken the advice of the remedial adviser and worked alongside capita to help produce this rectification plan, meaning that frankly, it's of a better quality, and we can now hold to account on that, using their systems and using the numbers and data in the correct way. And we won't be quoting things like unworkable cases and having all sorts of different triaging mechanisms, which make no sense to anybody else. On the go live issues that the opposition referenced by November 2025, assessments indicated that capita had made significant progress progress since the Public Accounts Committee hearing in July.

The only other alternative would be would have been extending the contract with the incumbent, my CSP and anyone who had any involvement with then would have known they were equally abysmal. The comparative risk assessment, conducted in October 2025, concluded that an extension would have been commercially and operationally unacceptable and presented a significantly greater risk than transitioning. And I would frankly just say gently that if in the 14 years prior, the opposition party hadn't stripped our public services to the point where we were reliant on companies like capita all the time, we might have found ourselves in a different position in relation to the issues he raises around other contracts.

And in the future, he rightly identifies that procurement legislation of 2023 will allow the

16:04

Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)

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government and government departments to look at previous poor performance, and it wouldn't poor performance, and it wouldn't be right for me to comment on this time. If anyone is subject to or being looked at in relation to Debarment. And finally, on contingency, as per with any contingency, as per with any contract of this size, the Cabinet Office always has contingency plans

16:04

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in place should that be required. >> Jessica Morden thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for initiating this statement on civil service pensions and for her commitment to strong commitment to push to hold capita to account, because even the cases we were told were a priority, particularly for the bereaved, we're still getting no updates on, no progress on I know she knows the hardship and anxiety this is causing out there. So in the short term, can I ask her to push these priority cases harder? And can I also join others in supporting the Minister to sort this out?

16:05

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you. >> I want to thank my hon. Friend for her question, and I. I will indeed be holding his feet to the fire every single step of the way on this rectification plan. And now that we have access to the capital systems, we'll be able to look every single day. As I know, Cabinet Office officials are to track that progress. As I said in the statement, every two weeks we will be publishing the figures so people can see for themselves how capita are performing. If they're

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not up to scratch. I will return to this House. spokesperson. Very much, Mr. Speaker. I thank

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Very much, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement and for the briefing last week. Since the last ministerial statement in July, ministerial statement in July, capita has reported to have met its own September target on priority cases. But as the Minister said, cases. But as the Minister said, this does not match lived experience and members have heard promises of improvement before. promises of improvement before. Capita missed both its April and June targets and months later is being propped up by a Cabinet Office task force. It is welcome to hear from the Minister that capita is improving its technology, and I am glad to see that it has been deploying additional resources to support improvements to its dashboards so that they can get through more cases, and time will show us if this work actually results in capita working through their backlog.

There are still too many people across the country waiting. One of my constituents, Diane, who lives in Offerton, she applied for retirement at the end of August last year, and she finally received her formal quote this month, a full 14 months after applying. It was a whopping £14,000 less than she was informally quoted, which may well have changed her decision to retire had the quote been received in a reasonable timescale for a 1.7 million current and former civil servants who simply want to know their pension will be handled competently, fairly and with dignity.

Now, I heard the minister's statement on holding capita to account, but could she

16:07

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say exactly how she is planning to do that for the impact this has had on families around the country, in on families around the country, in terms our constituents will relate to? And I notice her. I note her comment on Debarment, but given the absolute shambles they've made of it, can she truly say that she'd be happy to see capita bid for future government contracts? And will the government finally commit to inflation linking payments for all inflation linking payments for all outstanding cases to make sure those affected by capita mistakes

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do not pay even more for capita's delays? Minister.

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Minister. I want to I want to thank her for the questions and comments, and I'm sorry to hear the experience of Diane, her constituent. It's just one of many, many cases that we've heard about where the outcome is totally unacceptable. And the Chief Whip on the phone to me this morning about her constituent, Lisa, who's also facing very similar who's also facing very similar problems in getting anything out of capita and in terms of what I'm doing to make sure capita live up to their promises on this recent the most recent rectification plan. Look, as I said, my Cabinet Office officials are now in their in the systems every single day.

And that's given us the ability to challenge them in a way that we haven't been able to before. If we don't start to see progress each fortnight as we publish those results, I will have that capita CEO back in. I will continue to hold their feet to the fire. All options remain on the table contractually, and it's in capital interest to make sure, frankly, that they pull the socks up and do a better job in relation to department. I really I, I really can't comment on anyone that may or may not be subject to consideration

16:08

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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or investigation under the Procurement Act for that. But I think that, you know, most people think that, you know, most people in the House would recognise that capita have done a pretty poor job. It's not their first rodeo either, It's not their first rodeo either, and I will leave that there. And in and I will leave that there. And in relation to inflation linking, I will take that away and I will

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will take that away and I will write to her afterwards. And I'm happy to meet with her to discuss that further. Patricia Ferguson thank you, Mr. Speaker. Like members of the chamber, I have no doubt that the constituency postbag I have on this issue is extremely regrettable, but I do thank the Minister for coming here today with the statement. I do not plan to rehearse the cases I have, but needless to say, they are all marked by the fact that timescales just seem to be ignored, that people are being left in financial hardship and people are finding it very, very hard to understand why this is the case with a government body, or at least a body they think is a government body.

So can I ask the Minister, how long will capita have to deliver on this latest rectification plan, and how will rectification plan, and how will she judge them on that rectification plan? And does she work? work?

16:10

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Minister. I want to thank her for her question. In terms of the timelines, I don't want to set a date here today and then end up date here today and then end up with it being a disappointment. But what I will say is, now that the figures are going to be getting released every fortnight, if we released every fortnight, if we don't start to see pretty rapid improvement over the next month, I will come back to this House and taken.

16:10

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)

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The PAC, sir.

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And can I thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon? But can I say to her that actually the situation is worse than she's at? situation is worse than she's at? By this afternoon, we've had four PAC inquiries into capitalist administration of the scheme this year in virtually every single one of their deadlines they've given us in each of those hearings. They've missed. The latest revelation that missed. The latest revelation that I discovered was that if the capital do not pay out the lump sum payment due to the bereaved relatives, and they they don't pay out within two years, they will have to pay tax at their highest rate.

I wrote to the Minister about this. She very kindly replied, and had a meeting with me and told me it was not likely to be more than ten. Now I find that improbable, given that the scheme is 1.7 million members. And indeed, the Guardian published an article saying that 1600 members, sorry, 160,000 members had been waiting over 100 days. So it is likely that many of these people will get up to the two year deadline. So can she guarantee to the House today that guarantee to the House today that she will either enforce capita paying compensation for any lost money, or change the law so that money, or change the law so that none of those people in that very vulnerable position waiting for their payment can be, will be worrying about whether they will pay tax or not.

16:11

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Mr.

16:12

Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Labour)

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To thank the hon. Member for meeting with me last week to discuss this really important issue. The figure I gave to him, which was The figure I gave to him, which was around town, is in relation to that very specific category, who are at very specific category, who are at the 18 month or over, which is why the number is relatively small, and Cabinet Office officials are working to make sure that they are working to make sure that they are dealt with as quickly as possible. But if if it ends up looking like the rectification plan isn't going fast enough and more of these people are going to fall into scope, I will, of course, take further

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action. And I have liaised with HMT on this as well. John Mike Tapp. I'm the chair of the

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I'm the chair of the parliamentary group. So can I say to my hon. Friend, I think we all appreciate she inherited a scandal appreciate she inherited a scandal and I want to thank her for the access she's given to the unions to work with them closely in her. In work with them closely in her. In her statement, she mentioned the independent audit report. Can I ask if the Grant Thornton report is if the Grant Thornton report is going to be published and and when? And can I also say to her that the trade unions is willing to work with her in the gradual, the gradual, but I hope fast bringing

16:13

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in House this service, first of all, the front operations, then eventually the computer. But can I also say to the government went ahead and outsourced to capita the payment of salaries in three payment of salaries in three government departments and the Cinegy contract. Can I ask if there's any delay in wage payments there's any delay in wage payments at all? That contract is brought in House immediately.

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Mr. I want to thank the right hon. Member for his question. In relation to publishing the Grant Thornton Report. Due to some commercial legal sensitivities, we won't be able to do that. However, we are going to make it confidentially available to the PAC and PAC committees. I will, of course, work with the trade unions on any future plans we might have for the scheme, and I'm happy as well to work with the PCs parliamentary group. Further on that as well. The synergy contract did not fall under the remit of the did not fall under the remit of the Cabinet Office, and that was with DWP, but I'm sure his comments will have been heard.

16:14

Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)

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John Glen thank.

16:14

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You. I had a number of constituents who've been affected. I thank the Minister for her comprehensive response, but the issue that response, but the issue that concerns me more than anything is that when this procurement process happens, it seems as a as a former Minister, I recognise this, that officials come to you, assuring you that a series of decision points have been gone through, and these are the best options available. Yet when these things go wrong, nobody is individually accountable. What would the Minister say to our constituents who are alarmed at the fact that nobody is apparently responsible for such a dire outcome?

16:14

Jon Trickett MP (Normanton and Hemsworth, Labour)

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Yeah.

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I mean. Of course, the contract and the procurement for this was done under procurement for this was done under the last government. But I, I think in relation to in relation to accountability, I think the accountability, I think the immediate priority for myself and the Cabinet Office is getting this crisis resolved and making sure that all our constituents get the that all our constituents get the pensions that they should have. There will, of course, be lessons learned, and I'll be looking into learned, and I'll be looking into that personally as well. But the priority at the minute is just getting people their pensions.

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Jon Trickett Jon Trickett thank you. Very much, sir. And when the hon. Gentleman says that people hon. Gentleman says that people should be held responsible and accountable for their actions, let's remember the House they let's remember the House they allocated this contract to capita, knowing that capita were recidivists and continually recidivists and continually breaking contracts which have been outsourced. But it is totally unacceptable that a woman who gave unacceptable that a woman who gave 40 years of a life living up to in my constituency has been left with no response from capita for over 300 days since we contacted them.

16:15

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It's unacceptable since when she was diagnosed with cancer. You can imagine the problems which people imagine the problems which people face in any event. But to pile on that, the problems which she has with illness is you can imagine the personal anguish. But can I just say to the Minister, has she has she been able to establish whether they are in breach of contract? And finally, can I say this, bring it

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back in House? Minister I want to thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I'm sorry to hear these constituents experience if he wants to write to me about that, because that is particularly terrible. I really I

16:16

Rachel Gilmour MP (Tiverton and Minehead, Liberal Democrat)

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encourage him to do so, and I will look into it in relation to bringing in bringing the scheme bringing in bringing the scheme back in House. We're looking at all the different in-house options at the minute. We've got a team doing that. We're working with the trade that. We're working with the trade unions and other experts on it, but I am really clear that capita need to clean up this mess, and it will to clean up this mess, and it will not be the UK taxpayer that pays to do it either, and we will be making sure we recoup any costs in

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sure we recoup any costs in relation to the additional support we've provided. Rachel Gilmour Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister.

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For her statement. And as the hon. Member for. South Cotswolds mentioned, I. Also sit.

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Also sit. On the Public Accounts Committee, and we have done our best to get some reasonable responses from some reasonable responses from capita. My constituent, Jane, has been failed time and time again by been failed time and time again by capita, a five year delay to pension payments, poor communication and unexplained communication and unexplained suspension of their pension, and now an outrageous demand that she repay £8,000 because of Capita's mistake, not hers. Will the Minister condemn this treatment and reassure my constituents that the government will ensure she is treated fairly, following these serious errors, and that as a contractor, acting on behalf of the state capita a properly A held held to account for their failures because they have not been so far.

because they have not been so far.

16:17

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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I want to thank the hon. Member for her question, and I am sorry to learn of her constituents terrible experience and many more like it as well. If she would like to write to me with that, I'm happy to look into it. I will continue to hold capita to account. We. We have withheld nearly £10 million of contractual payments and capita are voluntarily paying a 10% invoicing, 10% reduction in their fee as well,

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until the service is restored to an appropriate level. Speaker. On the.

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On the. Public Accounts. Committee, as the chair said. We've had capita before us on

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We've had capita before us on many occasions. I don't think all my time in the House I've seen a my time in the House I've seen a worse example of incompetence and failure to deliver to deadlines and failure to deliver to deadlines and seemingly just not caring about the effects they're having on people and the distress they're causing every time they come along. I simply don't believe the word they say. So I say to the Minister, does she really have any confidence, despite all the guardrails she's putting in place and all the connections to the Cabinet Office, that capita are capable of delivering a scheme now that actually works and delivers pensions on time?

Certainly. Could I just congratulate her on the statement about looking at bringing the scheme in-house? It's a pity

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the previous government didn't think about that before they let the contract. Yeah. But because you then commit to

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But because you then commit to give the an update to the House on a regular basis, how far she's progressing with those possibilities, because in the end, it may be the only option to bring it back in house and give pensions

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a proper scheme, giving capital failures. Minister. I agree with my hon. Friend that the capital performance has been absolutely abysmal. There are no excuses from it and I will make no

16:19

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excuses for them and their terrible performance. I have more confidence in the rectification plan I've in the rectification plan I've outlined today, purely because of the involvement that the Cabinet Office officials and experts have

16:19

Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)

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had in it, and the fact that they now have access to the capita systems and data, which they did not have before, which will allow not have before, which will allow us to properly hold them to account on bringing the scheme in House. It's a manifesto commitment. We'll have the biggest wave of insourcing have the biggest wave of insourcing in a generation. I'm committed to that, as is everyone on this side of the House, and I will continue to update the House on progress made on this policy.

16:20

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Furthermore. >> I recognise the Minister's efforts to resolve this, and I'm grateful to her for meeting with me recently. But far too often, capita still remains completely unresponsive and sadly, trying to get an appointment at the MP surgeries now is proving very, very difficult. So last week I wrote to her about four outstanding cases in my constituency. So I just asked, like to ask if she'll commit personally to reviewing those cases and securing me a detailed update so that my constituents know what to expect, when to expect it, and to get the money that they are owed.

16:20

Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP (Torfaen, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Minister. >> I want to thank the hon. Member for meeting with me recently and for raising her constituency cases. I will go away and make sure I identify those four cases and follow it up personally and get back to you as soon as possible. I'm sorry to hear that. She struggled to get an appointment with the surgeries. I will work with my officials to see if there's any way we can increase increase capacity so that everyone can get the appointments they need.

16:21

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Nick Thomas-Symonds thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> And only. constituent. >> Who gave notice of retirement in

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Who gave notice of retirement in March and still hasn't had his pensions. Quote, I commend the Minister very much on the very hard work she's put in over the summer. After the actions I took and the statement I made to the House in July, can she assure me that as she looks at the future of this scheme, she'll ensure she directs officials to do the preparatory work to make sure that those different insourcing options are viable ones that we can put to the house.

16:21

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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Minister. >> I want to thank the right hon. Member for his question, and also for all the work that he did up to the summer in in appointing the remedial advisers and for all the help he's given me since as well. Absolutely. I will make sure that the right preparation work is done in relation to any insourcing options and make sure that people in the civil service, when they retire, can have confidence in the scheme that we end up choosing, is the right one for them.

16:21

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Pete Wishart see, I found that an extraordinarily complacent and singularly unhelpful statement from the Minister, a damning indictment of successive governments failure to get to grips with what is a full blown pension crisis. It is not good enough just to simply criticise Centrica. We know how bad they are, but what people want to see is real, decisive government action. So will she commit to bringing this in-house, making sure that emergency payments are going to be paid out meaningfully to people who are in real trouble and get to grips with solving this once and for all.

16:22

Kirsteen Sullivan MP (Bathgate and Linlithgow, Labour )

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Yeah, yeah. >> I don't accept at all that this isn't a meaningful plan. I think I set out in some detail in my statement, the things and the resources the Cabinet Office are resources the Cabinet Office are putting in to make sure we get this whole process back on track and deliver for scheme members. I have deliver for scheme members. I have many former colleagues, in fact, who have been affected by this as well, and everyone is working night and day to try and rectify it. As I've said, we are looking at all options for insourcing, but what we don't want to do is anything that is going to bring further disruption to scheme members.

Everything we do must be scheme member led and what's in their interest. But of course we're looking at all the options and significant work is going into

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those contingency planning and future options for the Civil Service Pension Scheme. Mr. Sullivan.

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Mr. Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for her update, and I do appreciate the focus on complex cases. I know that members across this House have many of them that this House have many of them that they are dealing with, but can also ask that she looks at the paid for

16:23

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fast track services. I have a constituent who paid almost £700 for a pension valuation to finalise his divorce. Now that was expected within ten working days. It took nine months and as a result cost him several times the original amount. Does the Minister agree with me that this is entirely unacceptable, and what action will she take to ensure that capita refunds, any payments taken for refunds, any payments taken for so-called fast tracked services that are nothing of the kind?

16:23

Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)

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Minister. experience of my hon. Friend's constituent. It's absolutely disgraceful that

16:24

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They've been treated that way by >> They've been treated that way by capita. If she could write to me with the details about that, I'm happy to look at that personal case

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happy to look at that personal case and see if there's any further assistance that I can provide. David Mundell thank you, Mr.

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David Mundell thank you, Mr. Speaker. My constituents will very much welcome the robust tone that the Minister set out in her statement. But for constituents like John Carroll from Annan, who worked at the Dumfries prison and who has been waiting since February to hear anything meaningful from capita, what difference will today make in terms of his likelihood to get a response?

16:24

Catherine Fookes MP (Monmouthshire, Labour)

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Maya Ellis to thank the hon. Member for his question. I think Member for his question. I think that Cabinet Office officials are now working in lockstep with capita to make sure that they're delivering against the new delivering against the new rectification plan, which was recommended by the remedial adviser. We will be able to see, as I said, on a fortnightly basis, how capita are doing in relation to bringing down the case numbers, and that should give some indication as to the service level recovery. If it is not up to scratch, and we'll know that in the coming weeks.

I will, of course, update the House on any further action that we can take in order to improve the service.

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Catherine Fookes. Thank you. And thank you, Minister, for your statement. Communications with your statement. Communications with capita did get better for a time, but I'm afraid they've dropped off a bit now. And I wanted to share with you a really sad case of a woman who came to us in May 2026. She'd spent two hours on the phone to capita. She couldn't get through, to capita. She couldn't get through, and she had two pensions unpaid. She'd retired from the DWP with She'd retired from the DWP with breast cancer.

In June, she was contacted by another scheme member, completely different person, who

16:25

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said that on two occasions she had been sent this woman. My been sent this woman. My constituents details both the annual benefit statement and some other details about the scheme, which is an appalling breach of which is an appalling breach of GDPR. So can the Minister please help me resolve this particular case because it is still case because it is still outstanding. And also, will you be looking at. Sorry. Will the Minister be looking at compensation

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for those that have waited over two years, of which I have many also in my inbox. Minister I.

16:26

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm sorry to hear the experience of the constituent of my hon. Friend. There are no excuses for Friend. There are no excuses for that. And under Capita's own own deadlines that they set themselves. That case should have been resolved by now. So if you'd like to write to me, I will take that up with the CEO of capita myself in relation to compensation. And I'm happy to have a further conversation with her about that, about what we're looking at. But obviously, the Pension Ombudsman is also aware of the situation with capita, and there'll be a number of people who

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want compensating for their loss of income and the impact that that's had on their life. I Mr Speaker.

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I Mr Speaker. A constituent. From Summerton. Applied to retire almost a year ago. She's had to withdraw her resignation twice because she didn't receive her pension quotation before her retirement. quotation before her retirement. And obviously, she can't afford to retire with no income. So if retire with no income. So if neither Capita or Cabinet Office can resolve my constituents problem, my my caseworkers have been attending regularly the casework fortnightly meetings with no fortnightly meetings with no resolution to this issue, and many others like it. Will the Minister personally intervene and tell my constituents, when shall we finally paid.

16:27

Tom Rutland MP (East Worthing and Shoreham, Labour)

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Minister?

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If the hon. Member would like to write to me with the details of that case, I will look at it myself that case, I will look at it myself and ensure that it's passed through my my private office as well. And that is the experience, I'm sorry to say, many scheme members, because of the failure of capita, but it is not acceptable and we are working day and night to make sure

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working day and night to make sure that capita are held to account and the service is improved. Tom Rutland thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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I thank the Minister for her statement. I've previously raised in this chamber the appalling delays that my constituents are

16:28

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facing in accessing their civil service pensions, which continue. Another problem they're experiencing is that if they don't experiencing is that if they don't agree with the amount that they receive, when they finally receive it, there's no response to their it, there's no response to their concerns from capita and indeed, no response to my correspondence on behalf of constituents. Will the Minister raise with capita the need Minister raise with capita the need to urgently respond to my constituents who are receiving lower amounts than they expected to,

16:28

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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lower amounts than they expected to, and to make corrections where necessary. >> Minister. >> I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I will continue to challenge capita on this. And, in fact, I have, particularly in relation to MP correspondence, where their responses have not been acceptable. If he wants to write me with any specific cases, particularly the one he mentions, I will happily put it in front of

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capita myself. Mark Pritchard Mr Speaker. Let's not sugarcoat this.

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This contract has been a complete flop. Yes, it was awarded. Under the past government. Now it's Under the past government. Now it's under the current government. But of course, the Prime Minister is setting the standard of not having a blame game, although I've heard a a blame game, although I've heard a lot of that today. But what my constituents want here is when this is going to get sorted. Now, the is going to get sorted. Now, the Ministers talked about a recovery plan in April. Fail recovery plan in June. Fail recovery plan in September. Fail failure after failure after failure.

So will the Minister answer the question that my hon. Friend on the front bench put. And that is that capita will capita get any other government capita get any other government contracts? Will my constituents be compensated? And when is the Minister and the government going to take responsibility wanted to be in government. So now it's in government. Take control of this contract and get it sorted, because contract and get it sorted, because my constituents are suffering.

16:29

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Sorry, Minister.

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I want to thank the hon. Member for his questions. I think I've set out in the statement how we are out in the statement how we are taking responsibility, how we are holding capita to account and making sure that they fulfil their making sure that they fulfil their contractual obligations in relation to department and other government contracts. I cannot legal and contracts. I cannot legal and commercial reasons discuss that in this House right now, and who might be subject to that under the new be subject to that under the new procurement law? And I made that clear in earlier questions as well.

We are now moving to a member led approach where we deal with the most complex cases first. We will be able to see that on the fortnightly website update, where members will be able to see cases going down. So that is what we will be marking their progress against. Looking at the cases on on the website and the updates that capita sent to me and seeing those improvements, if those improvements don't start to materialise in the coming weeks, then I will return to the House with what further actions we may take.

16:30

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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Yeah.

16:30

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Mr. Speaker. Could I also thank the Minister for her statement? I have, like other members of the House, a number of constituents who've provided years of service in the civil service, who've retired and yet have waited months to be paid. Could the Minister say more about the pressure she's putting on capita, and also on the options for taking the whole matter in-house?

16:31

Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)

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Mr. nearly £10 million in contractual payments, and capita are voluntarily taking 10% less on their monthly payments as well, in terms of bringing it in-house. It's it's important that we get this right, and it's important we do it at the right time and make sure we pick the best model for this scheme so that service members don't have to suffer any further. We at the minute, liaising with trade unions, with pension experts and others to have a look at the different options for different types of of models. And I will return to this House when I have further updates on that.

16:31

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Mike Martin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Like many honourable, right hon. Members of this House, I've got a, you know, a caseload full of constituents who've had their pensions not paid who've had their pensions not paid in the worst case, waiting for 11 months without a pension. My questions are twofold. Firstly, what compensation will the Minister be forcing to sorry, capita to pay those constituents who've missed out? And secondly, there are tax implications for the sequencing of payments. So payments can fall in different tax years, among other things. Will that all be squared away with HMRC, that people so that constituents and other people do

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not have to overpay tax. Minister. I want to thank the hon. Member for his questions. We are committed for his questions. We are committed to ensuring that no member is left financially worse off, and capita have committed to paying interest have committed to paying interest on late payments. All complaints will be handled with reference to will be handled with reference to the Pension Ombudsman standards. Compensation can be awarded following investigation under the

16:32

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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internal Dispute Resolution procedure, first by capita and then by the Cabinet Office. If they're not satisfied, they then can refer to the Pension Ombudsman in relation to the tax issue, and it's difficult to comment on individual cases if there's a specific case he's aware of. If you would like to raise it with me, and I'll make sure that I'm liaising with HMT to ensure no one is negatively impacted.

16:33

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Anna Dixon thank you, Madam >> Anna Dixon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I'd like to congratulate my hon. Friend for getting a grip of this issue. As a member of the Public Accounts Committee. As members here have heard, we've had repeated undertakings from capita that improvements were imminent and despite this, I, like many, have constituents still waiting for quotes and pension payments. The Minister set out clearly that Cabinet Office officials are effectively taking over the delivery from capita.

Does she agree this is a shambles and capita should pay for their failures? Mr.

16:33

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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I want.

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To thank my hon. Friend for her questions. The Cabinet Office are leaning in, but I want to be leaning in, but I want to be absolutely clear that capita is still responsible for the contract, and they are still accountable for and they are still accountable for the delivery of any rectification plan. All options remain on the table. And as I've said, we are looking at different in-house models, both for this scheme, but also in line with our manifesto to have the biggest wave of insourcing

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in a generation. Caroline Dinenage. Yeah. Deputy speaker, I.

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Thank the Minister very much for updating the House today. I've had so much casework on this, and she will know in some really will know in some really heartbreaking stories. The fact is that the backlog, including the growing number of cases that are growing number of cases that are over 100 days old, is just continuing to grow. And one of those is my constituent, Ann, who those is my constituent, Ann, who had to leave work with a pulmonary a life threatening pulmonary pulmonary embolism and severe

16:34

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pulmonary embolism and severe pneumonia. Five months later, she's still waiting to receive her money. What? She'll be very disappointed with what the Minister has said today. I think what she's looking for is some really hard facts around timescales. When will this be sorted? Once and for all. Meaningful sanctions? When will we hear whether capita can be prevented from bidding for other government contracts? Or there could be some clawback of all the money that her department is spending on trying to put this right? And when will there be compensation for some of my constituents who've had to wait so long?

16:35

Kate Osborne MP (Jarrow and Gateshead East, Labour)

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I want to thank the hon. Member for raising her constituents case, and I'm sorry to hear vans and I'm sorry to hear vans experience under Capita's own self-imposed deadline. That case should have been resolved by now. If she wants to write to me about. If she wants to write to me about. If she hasn't already, I'll make sure that it is looked at in relation to capita and further contracts. It's this government has now brought in the Procurement Act 2023, which does allow us to consider poor performance in relation to then giving out other contracts.

But I as I've said previously, I cannot discuss if capita or any other organisation is subject to an investigation or anything in relation to Debarment, but that there is a lever at the disposal of the disposal of this government.

16:35

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Kate Osborne thank you. Like many other MPs. I'm still being many other MPs. I'm still being contacted by my constituents in Jarrow and Gateshead East. >> Regarding their civil.

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Service pensions and the unacceptable delays. It's deeply concerning that my constituent Julie, Who retired from the civil service in February, only had her pension finalised in September and these delays are causing huge distress and financial hardship. So can I ask the Minister if we are going to pay compensation, but it should be paid by capita and not from any pension pot, and that, if so, that it will be without having to navigate any or tiresome claims process. I want.

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To thank my hon. Friend for her question, and I'm I'm sorry to hear the experience that her constituents have had as of so many in this House. Today, in relation in this House. Today, in relation to compensation, as I've set out, we are absolutely determined that no member is going to be worse off as a result of Capita's failure, and the government is also determined to recoup every single

16:37

Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)

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penny that we have had to spend, helping capita to resolve the failures that they should have been able to do themselves in relation to constituents being able to claim compensation. I will come back to this House at a later date once we've got this under control, and I'm happy to answer further questions on that. But as I've already set out, complaints will be handled in reference to the Pension Ombudsman standards.

16:37

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Wendy Chamberlain. East Fife Civil Service. >> Pension delays are not the only issue. I have previously spoken in this House of the jobs forgotten campaign for retired former police officers, who are dealing with the failings of the Scottish Public Pensions Authority as well. So I found the comments from the hon. Member for Perthshire interesting. And my my question to the Minister is this one of the things that my office are finding is just as they manage to sort somebody out, a new one comes on. I appreciate the the interest and focus on complex cases, but otherwise we are just firefighting.

If we are not stopping new cases emerging in the first instance. Minister.

16:38

Frank McNally MP (Coatbridge and Bellshill, Labour)

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I thank. >> I thank. >> The hon. Member for that question. There is a focus on complex cases, but we are also alongside that capital, alongside that are working to do cases are incoming on a live basis, particularly those that are relatively easy to resolve. So they are actually processing more cases than they're getting in. But because of the significant backlog and because of some of the high number of complex cases, it won't it won't still won't feel like a good service to many, many members.

16:38

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Frank McNally thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for her statement today. As I mentioned in statement today. As I mentioned in the House before, my constituent, Mr. Fraser, served as a prison Mr. Fraser, served as a prison officer and retired in 2020. Yet six years on, he is still waiting for his accurate pension. Like many impacted by the McCloud remedy. He has been met with barrier after barrier with little to no explanation, as have I, when I have met with capita and as recently as this summer, so can my hon.

Friend update the House on what specific steps are being taken to clear those McLeod cases so that Mr. Fraser can receive what he is entitled to.

16:39

Mr Gagan Mohindra MP (South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)

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Minister. >> I want to thank him for raising his constituents case. As I said in my statement, I will come back to the House in the next month or so the House in the next month or so to give an update on the McCloud remedy. Capita has now completed the discovery phase, but due to delays and identified complexities of the remaining cohorts, it is not clear if the initial date is any. Is is achievable, but I will come back to the House and update on on what more will be doing to make sure that his constituents and others get the pension and entitled to Gagan Mohindra.

16:39

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for her statement? Elizabeth, from Carpenders Park served as a Carpenders Park served as a Ministry of Justice usher for 23 years before retiring in January. Yet months later, she has still not Yet months later, she has still not yet received a single pension payment. This is despite spending over two hours sat in queues on the phone while simultaneously being prevented from using the pensions portal. Due to the high volume of inquiries. I am conscious that the Minister, via her office, is encouraging casework being brought to her.

I'm mindful there is a lot of casework across the House for that. And what efforts is she putting forward to ensure that increased capacity is made by both capita and the Cabinet Office to ensure both the backlog is dealt

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with as well as new cases? Minister. I thank him for his question,

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I thank him for his question, and I'm sorry to hear of Elizabeth's experience. It's totally unacceptable, as are so many of the cases we've heard today many of the cases we've heard today and many that we won't hear about as well. And as you will know, previously, the Cabinet Office have previously, the Cabinet Office have supplied nearly 150 staff in a surge team to help support capita surge team to help support capita in processing the backlog. We also now have Cabinet senior Cabinet officials working every single day with capita to make sure they're dealing with the complex cases that need quite, quite, quite serious expertise to get through them.

And we will continue to support capita in any way we can. I think the thing that the remedial report noted was that it was a technology that let them down in a big way. They have now put some further resource and money into the technology, so automation should help process some cases faster. But that is the biggest learning from the report is, frankly, when they the report is, frankly, when they said it was going to be the AI enabled pension scheme, that just wasn't the reality.

16:41

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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Douglas McAllister. backlogs for civil service pension cases in the country. And while task force meetings helped me keep constituents informed, the delays remain unacceptable. On top of that, I have found that many pension quotes are incorrect, requiring manual recalculation by capita, whose revisions team is overwhelmed. My constituents are waiting too long for quotes that are often long for quotes that are often undervalued, or omit service years or use incorrect pay rates. So can I ask the Minister is the Minister aware of these particular issues, and what steps will the government take to address them?

16:42

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Minister.

16:42

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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I am sorry to hear of the experience. My hon. Friend's constituents have had. It's totally unacceptable. Capita have been unacceptable. Capita have been totally unacceptable. And as I said in the statement, their performance has been utterly abysmal and they should hang their heads in shame at how they have treated dedicated public servants in this country. I will make sure that the particular issue he raises, I will take that up with my own officials and make sure that we're on to that to ensure there's no further improving that part of the service and so his constituents can get the correct quotes they need.

16:42

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Claire Young thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Another weekly surgery, another capita complaint, this time a constituent who has told one of her many calls to told one of her many calls to capita that she would have to wait while they accessed the spreadsheet. As someone is already using it, when the Minister talks about some slow improvement on technology, one can only imagine their starting point was a typewriter and abacus. Even with the support of officials, does the Minister really trust capita to safely deliver an AI enabled service to our constituents? Minister? Well.

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I agree with the hon. Member. You know, I'm not a tech expert myself, but I certainly know there is nothing AI about the system is nothing AI about the system capita have been using. It's totally unacceptable that they suggested that they would be, when suggested that they would be, when clearly they weren't ready to take on this level of automation, and they didn't have the technology they didn't have the technology available to them at the time. The Cabinet Office officials have said, are now working in the capita systems themselves day in, day out, systems themselves day in, day out, and to make sure that we're holding capita to account and challenging them that, as I said, there is some improvements to the technology, and I've told capita that those improvements need to continue to come and whatever they're putting in.

Frankly, there's more they can do. And I continue to tell them that every time I meet with them, that every time I meet with them, because as far as I'm concerned, it will never be good enough until every single person affected by this has a pension. They should this has a pension. They should have and frankly, receive the McKee.

16:44

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

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Thank you very.

16:44

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Much, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituent Denise, lost her husband in September last year, and in the more than a year since, she has been passed from pillar to post by capita. As many of my other impacted constituents have. Now capita are telling me that they have lost the form Denise submitted in January. Does the Minister share my disgust at this rank incompetence and. We should do everything she can to help Denise and my constituents.

16:44

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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Yes. will look at that case myself to ensure that capita find that paperwork or if it is resent, it's actioned immediately. And I think it's just indicative, frankly, as he says, of their total and utter incompetence. And, you know, we all need to be bearing in mind why it's so important we stick to our manifesto commitment to have the biggest wave of insourcing in a generation.

16:45

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Yeah. >> Jim Allister. >> Thank you. Could I ask the Minister, what should I say to my constituent who's a stage four cancer patient who applied for his civil service pension in April and has heard nothing? And what should I say to him about the fact that I, as his member of Parliament, wrote about his case to the Cabinet Office on the 26th of August, two months ago today, and equally have heard no. Had had no reply, and heard nothing.

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Thank you. I thank the hon. Member for his question. I'm sorry to hear that he hasn't had a reply to hear that he hasn't had a reply from the Cabinet Office. I will chase that when I get out of the chamber as a priority. I receive correspondence on a daily basis from members across the House, and I get on with them as quickly as I get on with them as quickly as possible. So I'm unsure why something was said on the 26th of August. Hasn't come to me yet, but August. Hasn't come to me yet, but I will chase that immediately.

And adding on to that, the case he describes is something that should have been resolved according to Capita's own deadline on the 1st of December. So when I received the correspondence, I will make sure correspondence, I will make sure it's chased appropriately.

16:46

Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)

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Amanda Martin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to firstly thank the Minister for her robust

16:46

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work in this area. Madam Deputy Speaker, Kaptur's handling of the civil service pensions is nothing short of a disgrace. I've seen people taking out loans, falling into debt, having bailiffs sent to their houses and suffering serious their houses and suffering serious mental distress as a result of this sham. This cannot be how we treat people who have dedicated their lives to public service. Whilst I lives to public service. Whilst I welcome today's statement and the government changes and the much needed action that she is taking, my constituents want capita to face consequences. So can the Minister say what consequences they have already faced, and will she guarantee further failure will mean further consequences?

16:46

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> I want to thank the hon. Member for her question, and I agree with her. As I've said probably a few her. As I've said probably a few times now, capita have been abysmal. And it's for that reason that that my predecessors in this role and I totally support, held back nearly £10 million in contractual payments to capita. Capita, now on a voluntary basis, are receiving 10% less on their monthly payments because they themselves recognise that their service is wholly inadequate. All other options remain on the table. Our monitor, on a fortnightly basis, the outcome of the new rectification plan and return to this house if it's not good enough.

16:47

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Vikki Slade Madam Deputy Speaker, Pat's father, died in September last year, and it took eight phone calls between October and May to be told that everything is in place. It then took another three months to be told the claim was accepted and literally waiting dispatch. We're now four months further on. We're now four months further on. Does the Minister think it's acceptable for it to take four months to put a stamp on the letter and send it out?

16:47

Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)

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Minister. the hon. Member would like to flag that case with me, I'll make sure it's chased. I will not make excuses for Capitas poor performance. They're accountable for their performance and they should be frankly ashamed.

16:48

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Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Pension this year alone, and. >> Only three. >> Have been resolved. >> So I was. >> Really pleased to hear the Minister's strong statement today, Minister's strong statement today, because my constituents are fed up with being told by capita that things are improving when simply they are not. And the most heartbreaking case was one of a gentleman who I started helping at the beginning of this year, and he was since died, and his widow is now having to fight capita, and I'm doing everything I can to fight alongside, and I'm sure she'll be glad to know that the Minister is with her, too.

So what can the Minister say to give my constituents confidence that this situation will finally improve?

16:49

Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

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I want to. >> Thank my hon. Member for her question, and I do hope that capita are listening today and listening to the pain and hardship that they have caused. So many thousands of have caused. So many thousands of dedicated public servants up and down this country. As I've set out the new rectification plan that's being done alongside capita officials means that we should hopefully see some improvement. We'll be monitoring that on a fortnightly basis. And since capital will now be publishing the numbers, I will be keeping a close eye on that and I will make sure the house is updated as well.

16:49

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Susan Murray thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I've been contacted Deputy Speaker. I've been contacted by constituents in Mr. Mid Dunbartonshire, who's complaints capita has closed without capita has closed without resolution and whose pension quotes have disappeared. Now, I heard the Minister say that old cases will not be allowed to sit in backlogs without progress. But my constituent, who served 43 years in the DWP, alleges that this is an example of capita manipulating closure figures. Can the Minister tell me how the government is monitoring capita to make sure complaints are closed only once they have been resolved and quotes don't disappear?

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I want to thank the hon. Member for that question, and I myself was not confident in the numbers that not confident in the numbers that capita had previously given, and I said that to their face on the 1st of September, after the 1st of of September, after the 1st of September, when they claimed to have met their self-imposed deadline. And that did not reflect the experience of scheme members. And we've heard cases today that should have been resolved by that deadline and clearly weren't. So I agree with her that capita have not agree with her that capita have not always, frankly, been flaky with the truth, let's say, on the reality of the numbers.

I think the difference now is that capita office officials have access to those systems, and they can go in and verify exactly what is going on, verify the the numbers and figures that capita are giving and can see that capita are giving and can see for themselves and report back. And the new transparency every fortnight means that we will be fortnight means that we will be able to see those cases in all their glory and whether or not they're coming down.

16:51

Katrina Murray MP (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, Labour)

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Katrina Murray thank you, Madam.

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Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for for the statement. I, like everybody else. I've got cases that I have contacted my hon. Friend about, but what I wanted to Friend about, but what I wanted to raise raised today is one of the things that's been absolutely consistent across all of the cases consistent across all of the cases in my office is dealing with dealing with regularly is how is how my constituents feel that they are being treated when they call the they call the helpline, they describe being laughed at. They describe being told that they.

Regardless of what happens in this house, it will be up to them to who decides when they actually get their pensions paid. These. These individuals. These individuals are people who have served this country well for many years, who are getting increasingly desperate, as they have often had no income for

16:51

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up to a year. And and moreover, up to a year. And and moreover, nobody should be treated without dignity or respect by anybody acting in the name of this acting in the name of this government. So can I ask her to, to, to engage with her officials to to engage with her officials to make sure that the message that this is completely unacceptable is, is driven through to capita?

16:52

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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>> Yeah. >> I'm absolutely disgusted to hear about the experience her constituents have had with the capita hotline. I will be taking that up with capita myself. It's totally unacceptable. Frankly, no one in capita right now should have the time to laugh, because they should spend every waking minute working to resolve their failures and the crisis that our civil servants who have retired are currently facing.

16:52

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Alison Bennett thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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I have many. Mid Sussex constituents who. Are caught up. In this hell, in this limbo, and

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In this hell, in this limbo, and some of them have been waiting for over a year. But I also have teachers writing to me, concerned about the transfer that is now underway of the teachers Pension scheme from Capital Capita to Tata. scheme from Capital Capita to Tata. So in the interest of lessons learned, what advice would the Minister offer to her counterpart

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Minister offer to her counterpart in the Department for Education? I thank the hon. Member for her question, and I will be discussing with the Department for Education

16:53

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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the lessons that we have learned from from this transfer, but I from from this transfer, but I think capita have shown publicly how terrible they've been. You don't have to look far to find a constituent who's been affected by constituent who's been affected by this. And we absolutely must improve these services going forward. And that is why we are exploring the in-house models, because we do want to have a big wave of insourcing, because we can no longer be totally reliant on

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no longer be totally reliant on these companies who let us down time and time again. Jim Dickson thank you.

16:54

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for her update and recognise that she is working hard to try to resolve what is a hard to try to resolve what is a heartbreaking situation for so many pension recipients? I have seven cases currently open with the department, including a constituent department, including a constituent who retired on the 1st of May and has received no payment since then, despite repeated correspondence, and another I first raised with Capita in January ahead of my constituents retirement in spring, he finally received a quotation and payments were expected only for capita to decide the quotation was wrong.

He is now back to square one and still not receiving any payments. Would the Minister undertake to investigate those two particular cases? Others that my office has raised with the office has raised with the Department and make sure that they are resolved?

16:54

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I thank my hon. Friend for that, and of course, I'd be happy to look specifically at those two cases that he raises if he'd write to me after the statement today. Just another example of the poor service that capita have provided and an

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indictment of their incompetence. Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, a copy of. First of Deputy Speaker, a copy of. First of all, can I thank the the the Minister very much for her understanding of the issues and her perseverance to try and and deliver, and everyone in the House can understand her annoyance as well. understand her annoyance as well. But the facts are deeply concerning in reality, when government and capita point to putting specific capita point to putting specific medicines for what they classed as workable stock, the hard data shows that hundreds of priority bereavement and death in service cases remain completely trapped over 100 days old.

Given that the independent remedial adviser in the technical audit reports are due this month, will the Minister outline exactly what robust commercial penalties or legal enforcement measures are being prepared against capita if they fail to restore full contractual service levels immediately? Thank you so much. Thank you.

16:56

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Well. classifications around workable cases and all of this sort of carry on. That is not something that we as a government ever recognise that as a government ever recognise that it's not in the contract. That's something they made up. And I was very clear with them when I first very clear with them when I first met the CEO of capita that I don't recognise that they said those cases around bereavement would be resolved by the 1st of September. And any that weren't, frankly, that was a missed deadline and therefore they failed to meet it in relation to what further action we could take.

And as I've said, we've already my predecessor already withheld £10 million in contractual payments, and capita are receiving 10% less each month on a voluntary 10% less each month on a voluntary basis, while the contract, while the service remains as poor as it is, and now the government has its is, and now the government has its disposal, the Procurement Act of 2023, which allows us to take into account poor performance when account poor performance when regarding other contracts. Speaker.

16:56

Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)

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I've missed deadlines and failed

16:56

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in their obligations to my constituents. Supposed priority death and service cases like Derek's unresolved, leaving people Derek's unresolved, leaving people grieving for over a year without what they're entitled to. Quotes like Anne's, who retired from the Scottish Prison Service nearly Scottish Prison Service nearly seven months ago, still not provided an annual benefit. Statements delayed, leaving people concerned they will not be paid accurately when they finally are paid. We should insource this scheme, and I appreciate the Minister putting this option on the table, but my constituents deserve transparency as well as action. So if not the full report, will the Minister publish just the recommendations from the Independent Remedial Advisers report?

16:57

Mr Paul Foster MP (South Ribble, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for this, >> I thank my hon. Friend for this, and I know he's raised a number of issues in relation to capital and fought for his constituents in this chamber on many occasions on this issue, in relation to publishing the Remedial advisers report, as I as I set out for for legal and commercial reasons, it won't be possible to publish the full thing. However, we will confidentially be providing it to Pac and Pacac. I will discuss with officials the possibility of of bringing out maybe a smaller version of it that can be made public.

But what I would say the rectification plan that we have put in place is based on the recommendations of the remedial adviser. Speaker.

16:58

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Several of my Woking constituents are in financial hardship as a result of capitalist failings. This appalling company has even sent out financial statements and letters with figures deliberately obscured. So former civil servants don't know what they're entitled to. MPs from across this House have clearly lost confidence in capita. So will the Minister agree for the Cabinet Office to set up themselves a hotline for MPs to raise cases and hold regular surgeries so we can ensure our former civil servant constituents can get the money they're entitled to?

16:58

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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Yeah, yeah. >> And I appreciate that. The points that you raise and what I would say the Cabinet Office are working with capita on the existing working with capita on the existing MP surgeries. The only hesitancy I'd have on it is really the priority to improve the MP priority to improve the MP surgeries is to make sure that the capita service itself is improving, because I could put lots more resources into those. But unless capita are able to deliver the answers, produce the quotes, and deliver people's pensions, we won't see an improvement in the output people are getting.

So absolutely, we'll keep under consideration more we can do in relation to MP surgeries so more people can have access to them, but really want to hold capita's feet to the fire on this rectification plan so that frankly, we don't need the surgeries anymore because people are getting what they deserve.

16:59

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Shockat Adam thank you. to thank the Minister not just for his statement, but the tone of his statement. I'm sure it will be very much appreciated by many of my constituents, like constituency, constituents, like constituency, like Cathy, who has given 26 years of her life service to the Ministry of Defence and the Prison Service. Yet Capita's failure means that her retirement has been blocked three times in just over a year now. Fortnightly dashboard is welcome, Minister, but what guarantees can she give that Cathy and thousands like her will retrieve, will receive the pension paid on time?

And will the auditors report be

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published in full to MP MPs and the unions? Well. I thank the hon. Member for his question and I'm sorry to hear of question and I'm sorry to hear of Cathy's experience. It isn't right what's happened to Cathy and and what's happened to Cathy and and many scheme members up and down the country in terms of, of, of the of country in terms of, of, of the of the audit report. We as I as I've said in previous answers, we won't be able to publish it in full for legal and commercial reasons, but we will provide them confidentially to PAC and Pacac so that they can scrutinise them.

And the remedial adviser's report recommended the rectification plan that we have put in place that has only just gone, been put into place, and now we been put into place, and now we will monitor in the coming weeks whether or not that is working. If it's not working, we will take further steps and nothing's off the table. Reynolds.

17:00

Mr Joshua Reynolds MP (Maidenhead, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you.

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Mr Speaker Stewart is 83. He lives in a care home in my. Constituency. Which his pension pays for. But

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that pension stopped for four months over this summer. And even after my constituency office intervened, he's had less than a quarter of those arrears than a quarter of those arrears paid back. And another of my constituents is in her 80s. She's just come out of hospital and she just come out of hospital and she is owed a staggering 17 years worth of widow's pension. Now, in July, of widow's pension. Now, in July, capita told me that this payment would be made within two weeks.

In August, they said that they had no

17:01

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notes on file from that July meeting in September. They told me it would be paid within ten days. On the 15th of this month, they said it was still awaiting human authorisation, and last Friday I authorisation, and last Friday I was told that four members of staff were currently working directly full time on her case. Would the Minister like to join me this Friday at 11:00 for my next weekly capita casework call to try and make sure that Anna finally gets some of these 17 years worth of pension payments.

17:01

Ministerial statement: Tackling Rough Sleeping and Supporting Good Growth

Well. unacceptable, and I understand why he's so angry about it. I'm angry about it, as I'm about so many of the cases that we have heard today. the cases that we have heard today. I'm not sure if I'm able to make 11 a.m. on Friday, but I will follow after this oral statement to see if

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after this oral statement to see if we can get any further progress. OK. And that concludes the statement.

17:02

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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I'll just give a few moments for Statement on tackling rough sleeping and supporting good growth. Minister.

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Florence Eshalomi. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. With permission, I would like to make a statement on the government's plan to tackle rough government's plan to tackle rough sleeping and homelessness and to to deliver good growth in every part deliver good growth in every part of the country. On his first day in Downing Street, the Prime Minister made ending rough sleeping his made ending rough sleeping his first priority. He did this because having a safe and secure place to call home matters to almost everything else in life. It affects our health and how children do at school, whether people can find and keep a job and the opportunities that come their way in the future.

But security is about much more than a roof over our heads. It is about whether the place you call home gives you the chance to succeed. That means putting the foundations in place for strong local economies and thriving places, because ultimately, the economic growth we want is created by people, and people are better able to get on in life when they have a decent home, a good job, and a community with the tools that shapes its own future. For this government, that means backing local leaders to given them the freedom to invest in homes, high streets, job and infrastructure their communities need, rather than making them bid for funding from Whitehall Pots.

Today, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm updating the House on two important steps of our work new investment to tackle rough sleeping and prevent homelessness, and the rollout of the good growth funding across England. Both stem from the same belief. National government should provide the backing, while local leaders who know their communities have the freedom to get on and deliver. Earlier today, the Prime Minister brought together local leaders, charities, businesses and other partners in Downing Street to drive forward that pledge he made on his first day in office. Our immediate commitment is to offer everyone sleeping rough a roof off the streets this Christmas and bringing forward new accommodation and the right support to help people move ahead with their lives.

We are back in that commitment with an extra £432 million from next year, so that local areas can continue to provide a route off the streets over the rest of this Parliament. Taking the total funding support, the Prime Ministers pledged to 874 million. Madam Deputy Speaker, this immediate help matters enormously, particularly as the winter approaches this weekend. The first two named storms of the seasons brought severe weather across the country. Tragically, two men lost their lives after being struck by falling trees in Dumfries and Galloway and in north London, and our thoughts are with their families and loved ones.

For anyone sleeping rough on the streets, it's a stark reminder of the dangers winter can bring. Getting people somewhere safe is urgent, but just as important is what happens next. It is not enough to offer somebody a bed for a few nights and then see them return to the streets. People sleeping rough may need help with their physical or mental health, finding a job or with other complex needs. A route off the streets then must come with the support people need to rebuild their lives to regain their independence and crucially, find lasting security away from the streets.

This programme is designed to be led locally. Rough sleeping does not stop at council boundaries, and neither do many of the services that people rely on. Where the funding goes directly to local councils or through strategic authorities, local leaders will have the flexibility to bring togeth local pressures. We need to break the cycle of crisis altogether. We cannot wait until someone has lost their home before stepping in. Yeah, that is at the heart of our National plan to End homelessness, public services, working together, intervening earlier and preventing homelessness wherever possible. And that's why we've already moved to ban the no fault evictions, repeal the Vagrancy Act, and reformed Right to Buy to protect our social housing stock.

We are bringing back long term, empty homes into use and tackling unsuitable B&B accommodation for families. Because temporary accommodation should be temporary. All too often it's anything but. Madam Deputy Speaker, that principle of trust in local leaders brings me to good growth in our rewiring the state Cabinet statement in July, we committed to supporting mayors to establish good growth funds across England, putting more investments and decisions in the hands of local leaders. Today, I am updating the House on the first steps towards delivering that commitment ahead of the Chancellor confirming the plans at the Budget, because the people best placed to help their communities should also be given the freedom to invest in their future.

For too long, local leaders have had to navigate a patchwork of Whitehall funding pots, making it harder to plan for the long term and use public money to effectively unlock the most important projects for economic growth. Good growth funds are designed to change that. Today we are confirming 285,000,000 in 20 2728, comprising for good growth funds and transitional capital funding for other areas progressing towards mayoral devolution. That will give local leaders more freedom to invest in projects their places need, from homes and town centre regeneration to infrastructure connecting people to jobs and opportunities.

And importantly, when money goes back into that fund, it can be used to back new projects. That creates a virtuous cycle. Public money goes further. While mayors gave greater independence to plan and deliver for the long term. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm proud to be a product of local government, and I want local government to have the means to deliver. That is why we are also working with mayors to design a new 1.5 billion borrowing facility from 2028, giving them access to finance and back major local projects. We will provide strategic authorities with an additional 150,000,000 in 20 2728 to strengthen their capacity and capability as the range of powers and responsibilities they grow.

Because devolution cannot simply mean giving local leaders more responsibility, if we expect them to take on that responsibility, they need the people, the expertise and resources to deliver it properly. These are the first steps the Chancellor will confirm these plans at the Budget. Alongside the fiscal devolution roadmap, which will set out the government's plan for a new funding system for regional and local governments in England. Madam Deputy Speaker, I began with the commitment from the Prime Minister, which he made on his first day in Downing Street today. Summit at Downing Street was about keeping that momentum behind the promise, getting people off the streets, making sure the right help is there for them afterwards, and breaking the cycle of the crisis that leads people into homelessness in the first place.

But the Prime Minister also talked about, on his first day, a government that invests in people's successes rather than paying for failure. And that underpins all that I set out today. People are able to get on in life when they have a decent home, a good job and a community with the confidence and means to shape its future. That means giving people the security they need. It means giving local leaders the powers and investment to create opportunities in the places they know best. This is how we rebuild our country, is how we rebuild our country, where no one is written off, where every part of the country has a chance to succeed and to share in chance to succeed and to share in that good growth.

And in that spirit, I commend this statement to the House. the House.

17:11

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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Shadow. Minister. Lewis Cocking. and I'd like to thank the Minister for advance sight of the statement. Over the weekend, we heard yet another policy announcement made through the media, with the Prime Minister taking time out of his very busy reality TV schedule to brief the press. That is apparently going to end rough sleeping by Christmas again through the media. Now, this is a laudable aim, and I think it would be shared across the house by parties of all colours. And I'm sure everyone in this country wants to see rough sleeping fixed as an issue once and for all, however laudable it may be.

This pledge reminds me of a similar one made almost a decade ago, then in 2017, by the Mayor of Greater Manchester, to end rough sleeping in that city region by 2020. Again, this was a nice idea, sold in a nice upbeat way, but sadly the reality didn't reflect that rough sleeping still exists in Greater Manchester and in fact, the numbers have risen from the year 2021, with the rate even doubling 2025 to 2026. The Prime Minister may be in his new job, and perhaps he took inspiration from another reality TV programme, The Traitors, to kick out his predecessor with the help of his new Chancellor.

But the Labour Party is not new in government. They have been in charge now for well over two years, exactly the same period as rough sleeping has continued to rise in Greater Manchester. The Prime Minister asked him to judge us on his record as the mayor of Greater Manchester. So that is precisely what we are doing. Failure in Manchester is one thing, but on a national scale the numbers are even bigger. So far, he has said that he will put another £432 million of taxpayers cash towards this bridge, bringing the total commitment to £874 million.

The government themselves are estimating estimate around 4000 rough sleepers are given on an average night, which means this policy will cost in the region of £200,000 per rough sleeper. Can the Minister confirm this, and can she tell us where all the money will go? This is at the same time the Prime Minister refuses to rule out tax rises, refuses to upset his left wing backbenchers by cutting benefits. So the government needs to be honest about where all this money will come from. He's talked about bringing in hope. He talks about the positivity. We all know his fondness for good vibes, but what really matters is the delivery and the details.

In the past, the Prime Minister has failed to deliver on this issue. Precisely. He talked a good talk. He made the grand promises, but he could not keep them on rough sleeping. We see this time and time again from the Labour Party as they believe they can solve a problem just by throwing more money at it, as if there's some sort of magic money tree grows on. This is an issue that they need to accept. It is not their money, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is taxpayers money. Taxpayers who are increasingly being squeezed for all that they have, taxpayers who deserve to know where their hard earned cash is being spent wisely.

And I'm sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but taxpayers are being completely let down by this Labour government. The deficit is out of control, and rather than making the necessary cuts, they're coming back with even more spending commitments. We have a Budget later this week, and the Conservative Party has been clear that the Chancellor must use this opportunity to properly deliver for working people across the United Kingdom. The benefits bill has to be capped. The tax burden needs to be eased on businesses and on workers, and the net zero nonsense that makes our electricity and heating more expensive has to go.

And of course, all of us on this side of the house want to see rough sleeping ended. But this will only be achieved. This will only be achieved through action and not empty promises made by Prime Minister. With a track record of failure on this issue, we need to see delivery. When this Labour government pledged to deliver, they failed to deliver. Perhaps the Minister could remind me how they're getting on with building

17:15

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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the 1.5 million new homes they promised to build, as housing supply and rough sleeping are clearly linked, why should anyone clearly linked, why should anyone believe them when they can deliver? As the Prime Minister has repeatedly failed on this exact issue, when the Labour Party fail, as they always do every time they're in government, it's always they're in government, it's always someone else's fault. It's always someone else's money, and at the end of the day, they can come out end of the day, they can come out with all the pledges and promises they want.

But it's the British people that have to pay for their repeated failures.

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Yeah. Minister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's always good to Speaker, and it's always good to see the hon. Member in his place. see the hon. Member in his place. And. And we have to look at the facts of what we are dealing with. This government inherited a homelessness and rough sleeping crisis, both rough sleeping and homelessness in temporary accommodation have more than accommodation have more than doubled since 2010. I mentioned that I've just come from a summit earlier this morning in Downing Street, where the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State myself, we convened a range of organisations, charities, faith leaders, civic societies and groups and council leaders working on this important issue to understand the challenges of rough sleeping.

We have to recognise that it is not about just putting a roof over people's heads. For many people sleeping rough, it is about the wraparound support. It's about the long term interventions on substance misuse. It's about support to help them manage their finances. This is what that funding will crucially go to. It is not about handing £200,000 per person. It is about the many organisations who fundraise on an annual basis to address this issue. We are proud on this side of the House to make sure that this is a commitment that this government is committed to, in terms of the shame that we are seeing people still sleeping rough in England in 2026, the the shadow Minister outlined the the the figures and stats from Manchester.

What he failed to realise and mention is the fact that the then mayor of Greater Manchester inherited that crisis from the then government, and that there wasn't enough funding to support some of those key initiatives. So the Prime, the then mayor of Manchester took that initiative, working with many charities to bring forward a programme which we are now looking to replicate. To end this commitment, we have to make sure that when we are looking at the investment and intensive support for people sleeping rough, we are

17:18

Ms Abena Oppong-Asare MP (Erith and Thamesmead, Labour)

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listening to their lived experience. The lived experience that was shared with us this afternoon and at that summit, the lived experience to ensure that this is experience to ensure that this is not just an issue for MCHLG as a department to solve, but working department to solve, but working across departments, across Cabinet levels, showing that there's real commitment to it. And now we have a Prime Minister and the Secretary of State and a Minister really focussed on this. I hope that the shadow opposition will actually get

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shadow opposition will actually get on board and look at how we end rough sleeping. Yeah. Chair of the Select Committee, Abena Azari.

17:18

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Thank you. >> Welcome the minister's statement. And I had the opportunity to attend the summit today. I agree that prevention is the key to ending rough sleeping. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister if she can implement all of the committee's recommendations from the rough sleeping inquiry. I know the government has implemented some of them. I have a specific further question, which is what assessment the government has taken to identify people that are likely to become at risk of homelessness if the Housing Local Housing allowance remains frozen at this Wednesday's Budget.

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I thank the chair of the Housing Select Committee and thank her for her participation in the summit her participation in the summit earlier this afternoon. This morning, and with regards to the morning, and with regards to the Select Committee statement and recommendations, she highlighted, I hope that my hon. Friend will agree hope that my hon. Friend will agree that this government is going further and faster in addressing this issue around rough sleeping with this new cash injection to with this new cash injection to ensure that the recommendations, as outlined in the Select Committee report, now have the immediate provisions to help look at ensuring people are coming off the streets by this Christmas, but most

17:20

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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importantly, the long term support and that intensive wraparound support to ensure that no one then support to ensure that no one then ends up back on the streets. With regards to her question on the local housing allowance, my hon. Friend will know that this is an issue that's very close to my heart, and it's something that we continue and it's something that we continue to raise with Treasury colleagues, and I'll ask her to continue to press the treasurer on that the same way we will do.

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same way we will do. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Sarah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Liberal Democrats welcome this commitment. We want to see an end to rough sleeping, but we've heard this pledge before. The last conservative government promised to halve rough sleeping by 2022 and end it by 2027, then brought that forward to 2024. They achieved neither, leaving 8.5 million people in England with unmet housing needs. This attempt must do better. A catchy pre-budget headline needs a plan behind it. Now, Somerset Council have identified 142 bed spaces, but given they will no not know their share of the money until Wednesday, it will leave them only around eight weeks to deliver the spaces before Christmas.

Now, this is not just an urban problem. In Somerset, 80 people were found rough sleeping on a single night at the last count, and in Glastonbury, 131 vans and caravans are being lived in at the roadside by people priced out of a home, by rents they simply cannot afford. They don't show up in the rough sleeping count, but they are homeless in all but name. The county councils network warns that more than 23,000

17:21

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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children in rural England are growing up in temporary accommodation. None of this will be accommodation. None of this will be fixed without more social homes, so the Liberal Democrats would build the Liberal Democrats would build 150,000 of them a year. So I have three questions for the Minister. Is eight weeks a realistic time Is eight weeks a realistic time frame for councils to deliver? Will this funding reach rural areas, not this funding reach rural areas, not just our cities, and will it be backed by a long term investment in social housing, or will people be forced back onto the streets come

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January? Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Lib Dem spokesperson for those important spokesperson for those important questions. We need to recognise that for a number of the council's strategic authorities, charities strategic authorities, charities working on this area, they are working hand in hand with the working hand in hand with the government to address this. What I heard this morning from the summit heard this morning from the summit was people excited by the plans, excited by the funding, additional funding and willing to play their part because they recognise that government cannot do this alone.

This is going to take a whole society approach in terms of everyone coming together, and the National Housing Federation has been working with their partners in terms of bringing forward some of those properties. They're offering over 2000 properties across the country. We need many more. And this is just a start. So I'd say to the hon. Lady that local councils are up for this challenge. They are working with the government. And what I hope that this additional funding guarantees and shows them is that the government is committed to this in the long term. They only had funding guaranteed until March, but now they have funding for the next two three years.

This is a way where we are putting our money, where our mouth is to show we are working on this, and we are supported in this for the long run. In terms of her question with regards to rural authorities, rough sleeping across the country comes in many different forms and guises, and it's important for us to look at a place by place approach because for some people, they'll have many range of complex reasons why they ended up rough sleeping. And we know that rough sleeping in inner urban areas is totally different to coastal areas, to rural areas.

So it has to be led by local councils, strategic authorities and those local organisations in terms of what works best in their areas. And with regards to her question on the long term ambition of building, we know that the only way we can address that the only way we can address this to ensure people don't end up in that vicious cycle of finding themselves homeless again and themselves homeless again and sleeping rough is to have a safe, secure, affordable and social home secure, affordable and social home

17:24

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Which many of us in this chamber grew up in. So it's important that we are seeing the biggest cash injection in the social housing affordable program to build those homes, and equally, protecting the homes that we currently have plans that we have as set out in the social housing bill. And I hope that the Lib Dems will continue to support that.

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Darren Jones thank you, Madam Speaker. Can I thank the Minister. And the. Secretary of State congratulate.

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Them on securing the additional funding for this important initiative, not least given on the basis of the submission from the Shadow Benches. The Conservative Shadow Benches. The Conservative Party should think we shouldn't be doing anything at all. So I'm pleased to see this Labour government doing the right thing. Madam Deputy Speaker, we've seen street homelessness increase in our constituencies over the years, not just in the areas where we might

17:24

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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normally expect to have seen it in places like Bristol city centre, but in vans on the downs or in the church gardens in Shirehampton and Bristol North West, the prevalence of street homelessness has increased to unacceptable levels. So can the Minister tell me how her department will decide how to split the pot of money she's received from the Treasury, between different councils and communities across the country, to ensure that we can get this money directly to the people who need it the most this winter.

17:25

Rt Hon Esther McVey MP (Tatton, Conservative)

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I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comment and thank him for for his comment and thank him for his support in recognising the work that we are trying to do and areas where we are working to get that additional funding from the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman is very right in terms of making sure that funding goes out as quickly as possible. We are working with a range of different councils and strategic authorities to look at how best that funding is going out, and those discussions continue to go on with my officials and the local Government Association and other council leaders to ensure that the money goes out in the most appropriate ways.

17:25

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Esther McVey Madam Deputy Speaker, could the Minister clarify Speaker, could the Minister clarify something for me? Over the weekend, it was revealed criminals released it was revealed criminals released early from prison under Labour's appalling Sentencing Act were provided with tents because there was no accommodation available for them. That's criminals now out on the streets, homeless. So can the Minister let me know? Will some of this £874 million for homeless people go to finding accommodation for those early released criminals? And two, if there were no accommodation for those criminals, where's the accommodation coming from for these homeless people?

17:26

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. One of the key pressures we see and we hear is the revolving door for when criminals are released with nowhere to go. It's about how we tackle and address the stigma with criminals coming out from prison. And we are working closely with colleagues in MoJ to identify and ensure that before prisoners are released, they have somewhere safe and secure to go to. But ultimately, this is around looking at where the funding is going. With regards to the comment that she mentioned on the tents, I'm not aware of that. I can I'm happy to provide her additional information on that.

17:27

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Der Meg Hillier Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the statement today and the commitment of the Prime Minister and the of the Prime Minister and the government, and I note that in the minister's statement, she talks about the commitment being to offer everyone sleeping rough a route off the streets this Christmas. We know during Covid that there were some people who were offered accommodation that were so used to living on the streets, they weren't able to take it in. Hackney are an excellent leader of homelessness there took a really pragmatic approach to dealing with that in the short term, but what does she have an idea of the percentage of people that will be affected by that, and how they will get wraparound support if they refuse

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to take accommodation? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for raising I thank my hon. Friend for raising that really important question. The roots of the Street initiative has to be tailored on a person's individual circumstances. It could be accommodation, it could be be accommodation, it could be support, it could be both. Support could include stuff around mental health or substance misuse, health or substance misuse, employment or training support to access and maintain accommodation. One of the comments I heard today from the summit was around the fact that even when someone who'd been sleeping rough for many years was offered accommodation, they still chose to sleep in a sleeping bag.

We have to recognise for many people, it's not just about securing accommodation. We have to take a tailored and individual approach to how we help people, and many of them suffer in long term trauma and additional support, so trauma and additional support, so it's really vital that we are. We continue to work with colleagues across NHS and Department for across NHS and Department for health in terms of looking at that additional support that will come to help people stay off the streets.

17:28

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

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Will Forster The Deputy Speaker The Prime Minister has said that the wider society, especially the faith and the voluntary sectors, will need to play their part in ending rough sleeping. But voluntary groups like Woking's homeless shelter, the York Road Project are already overstretched and underfunded. How the Minister ensure that the voluntary sector is supported and funded to end rough sleeping, both this year and in future years in the long term.

17:29

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for that important question. And he's right. Many voluntary groups, faith right. Many voluntary groups, faith groups have been doing this for many years with little and in some cases no funding. Many have been driving national fundraising driving national fundraising campaigns, many have been crowdfunding. And especially as we get closer to Christmas, many will be asking their members, their be asking their members, their congregation, their supporters to campaign and donate to that. What we are doing with this national drive is bringing together different resources and different perspectives to share those best practices and learning, and looking at how we can unlock more progress.

Building an alliance to unlock this, building healthy coalitions to do this because as I mentioned, this will not just be solved by the government alone. It's about working with those groups who have a long history in this area and making sure that they are adequately supported as well. So that's one of the areas we'll be looking at.

17:30

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam >> Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Over the years, we've worked incredibly hard in York across multiple agencies to York across multiple agencies to end rough sleeping, ensuring that we're looking at the holistic needs of people who were out on the streets. And I'm pleased to say that we have cracked that nut. However, we've got a challenge of people with no local connection the way that funding works for them. So could you say a little bit more about how people with no local connection can ensure funding in the place where they are choosing

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to stay, and to ensure that there's proper transfer of resources? I thank my hon. Friend for

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I thank my hon. Friend for raising that important point, and it shows where local councils are working really well to tackle this working really well to tackle this issue, coming together, working with different community groups and faith groups and voluntary organisations. And and it's that organisations. And and it's that kind of example that we want to learn from and replicate right across the country. To really

17:30

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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address this. With regards to her specific question, in terms of people who may not have any local connection, it's around looking at some of the legislation that we are introducing in terms of a duty to collaborate, looking at how we can help people who are identified as being at risk of homelessness being identified earlier so that the right support pathways can be provided to them, how we connect them to other services. If it is that the local council service cannot support them. Deputy.

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Speaker, and I welcome the ambition that the Minister and the Prime Minister have, and I hope Prime Minister have, and I hope that she will succeed. The fact is that visible, the visible signs of homelessness are people sleeping homelessness are people sleeping rough on our streets. But at any one day there's 300,000 people sofa surfing who may end up in the surfing who may end up in the streets tomorrow. Anyone who's rough sleeping now will be suffering from their mental health, suffering from their mental health, their physical health. They may be addicted to drink drugs.

They may have been on the streets because of gambling. Every case is unique. And as she quite rightly says, it's not just putting a roof over someone's

17:32

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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head, it's building that network of support around them. So there's two things that I think I would ask. things that I think I would ask. One is we know what works housing First works, building that network of support around the person to enable them to rebuild their lives. But the second issue is those rogue But the second issue is those rogue landlords who will exploit vulnerable people, and she always knows what's coming next. When can knows what's coming next. When can we get my supported Housing Act in place so we can stop those rogue landlords from exploiting people and potentially taking much of this money that the government's offering?

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Yeah. I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this point. I just want to actually commend him for the many years that he's worked on this and the work that he's led, in terms of pushing the then conservative pushing the then conservative government around that manifesto commitment of ending rough sleeping by 2024, I will declare that I co-chaired briefly the all party party parliamentary group on ending party parliamentary group on ending homelessness with the hon. Gentleman. And this is where we have to look at how we work together across party to address this really important issue.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the principles of Housing First, where we have that inclusive upfront support so that people who've been sleeping rough for a long time can move away from the streets into a safe, secure accommodation where they actually feel valued, they feel listened to, they feel loved, they feel hope so that they can actually look at how they can support themselves before they go on to independent living. That is a key initiative that many successive governments knows work, and this is something that we are wanting to build on as as we go on in terms of expanding this.

With regards to the hon. Gentleman's second point, this is an area, again, which is very close to my heart, and it's close to my heart, and it's something that hopefully he will not have to wait much longer.

17:33

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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Rachel Blake thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituency, the cities of London and Westminster, consistently has the highest number of rough sleepers in the country. This is not a statistic that we welcome. I was grateful for the opportunity to attend the Prime Minister and the Minister's rough sleeping summit today, and to visit the connection at Saint Martin's in my constituency, where I spoke to people who have been sleeping rough, and the frontline workers who work every single day to help people off the streets.

This sustained funding

17:34

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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will make a real difference, and we cannot underestimate the impact that it's going to have. I wanted to ask the Minister to comment on to ask the Minister to comment on how local authorities should be collaborating in the future on local connection, in terms of how local connection, in terms of how that prevents some people from finding a sustainable home, and also the commissioning of detox and recovery services, which have been fragmented for far too long. And fragmented for far too long. And the fact that these things are so fragmented is holding people back from the recovery that they so desperately need.

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Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my honourable and constituency neighbour for her comments and support for this. We were able to visit an organisation were able to visit an organisation in her constituency a few weeks ago to speak to people who'd been helped to charity, a fantastic charity called Change Please in Victoria Station, where it's offering people who've been sleeping rough and people facing homelessness an opportunity in terms of employment, vital skills, so that they can provide for

17:35

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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themselves and secure their rent and accommodation. And it's initiatives like that that we want to see being rolled out across the to see being rolled out across the country, initiatives which which gives people who've been sleeping rough and people facing homelessness another chance. With regards to her, her question on people with no local connections. This is an area that many local authorities continue to raise with us, and we are having more discussions with them, and especially discussions with especially discussions with colleagues in MoJ and Home Office in terms of that. With regards to her second question on, on on the funding package, this is an area that we'll continue to explore, and I hope that she'll continue to

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engage with with MHC officials on this. So, Gavin Williamson. Thank. You, Madam.

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You, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to invite the Minister to join me on a tour of a beautiful town of stone tour of a beautiful town of stone in my constituency. And as we walk down the high street, she will see down the high street, she will see the grade two star listed Crown Hotel, which is sadly, slowly

17:36

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Hotel, which is sadly, slowly degrading because the owners aren't putting the investment that is required. Now to me, be Good Growth Fund sounds like a brilliant opportunity for Stafford Borough Council to look at either compulsory purchasing this building and making sure the investment that's required to bring it back to life is put there. However, we do not have elected mayors in Staffordshire, so how can authorities such as Stafford Borough Council access this money to deliver the growth and the investment in our town centres?

17:36

Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)

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I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question on this and his. He raises a valid point in that areas without male strategic authorities, what we are doing is ensuring that we can work with local councils and continue to engage with those areas without male strategic authorities, so that they too will not lose out on this vital funding. So I'll ask the gentleman to continue to engage and ensure that his authority gets that

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funding. I do want to try and get as many members as I can in on this members as I can in on this statement. So if we could ask for shorter questions and shorter answers, please.

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answers, please. Catherine Atkinson thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome today's additional £432 million to tackle rough sleeping, with. Reoffending accounting for with. Reoffending accounting for 80% of offending in England and Wales, securing stable accommodation on release from prison is absolutely central to reducing reoffending and making our communities safer. Yet last year, around 1000 people a month left prison homeless. So will the Minister work with the Ministry of Justice to use this investment to go beyond the target of halving homelessness among prison leavers? And as we seek to accelerate progress on preventing homelessness, I am concerned that the ministry intends to replace quarterly accommodation figures with annual reporting.

So will the Minister press for quarterly publication to press for quarterly publication to continue to be tracked?

17:38

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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I thank my hon. Friend for that important question. I already highlighted the fact that for many people leaving prison, a secure and

17:38

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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safe accommodation may not be waiting at the end. So we are looking at working more closely looking at working more closely with colleagues in MoJ and across the prison estate to ensure that people are leaving prison to somewhere safe to go. This is somewhere safe to go. This is something that the Secretary of State continues to press with other Cabinet members, and something that Cabinet members, and something that we regularly discuss in the inter-ministerial group, where all colleagues are coming together to discuss that. With regards to her discuss that. With regards to her question on the the reporting and figures base, this is something that I'll take back to with officials.

17:39

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Jess Brown-Fuller thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. streets of Chichester, and one of their most vital services is the day hubs where people can engage if day hubs where people can engage if they are at risk of or experiencing homelessness. Importantly, without any judgement, so much of the government's previous funding has been crisis funding. But the prevention work, as the Minister knows, is a key part of tackling the root causes and the cycles of homelessness. So if this programme is designed to be locally led, does the Minister see value in encouraging local leaders to direct some of that funding to the outreach services, such as the day hubs, which are currently working on an annual cycle and don't have the structure to know that there will survive?

17:39

Andrew Ranger MP (Wrexham, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for raising that really vital and crucial example of where this works well and where some of those organisations and charities have been working with very little funding, I would ask the hon. Member to ensure that she's engaging with her council to ensure that some of that vital fund that every local area will be receiving is going to the right organisations. I'm happy to provide her additional details on that.

17:40

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Andrew Ranger thank you, Madam. >> Andrew Ranger thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. >> I thank the Minister. >> For her. >> Statement and welcome the measures announced. But over this measures announced. But over this weekend, I've had volunteers report to me that they've got homeless people from Wrexham in Wales being put up in temporary accommodation over the border in Chester, and where they're being exposed to significant drug abuse and other issues like that. So as housing has devolved, but this crosses the border, so can the Minister tell the House what she is doing, what work she's doing with the Welsh Government on safeguarding standards across border care, and what funding will flow to Wales from today's announcement?

Great question.

17:40

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the hon. Gentleman raises a and the hon. Gentleman raises a really important question and an area that comes up often with regards to out of borough placements with with housing and with temporary accommodation. And this is something that we continue to discuss with devolved administrations and other local areas where we are seeing an increase in, in people being placed out of borough and the pressures that's causing in local communities. And some of the issues around community cohesion is something that's which falls under my responsibility, and I continue to monitor that closely.

17:41

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Mike Wood thank you, Madam Speaker. I think all members will support this statement and hope support this statement and hope that it succeeds. But for new plans to be successful, it helps to understand why previous schemes might not have been as successful. Obviously, last year we had the national Homelessness strategy promising to halve rough sleeping over the course of this parliament with an uplift in funding. So why does the Minister think that in the year to June this year, homelessness was up compared to the previous year? And why she's confident that her plan will do better?

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. What we are seeing with this new focus on homelessness is support, right from the very top support from the Prime Minister, who made it his mission on the steps of it his mission on the steps of Downing Street to say this country will not continue to allow to watch people sleeping rough. And that people sleeping rough. And that support is now being supported by crucial funding to help local areas. In terms of designing some of the In terms of designing some of the schemes to ensure that people are coming off the streets and we're not stopping.

That's not just about the streets and the Bedford and the Bedford Christmas. It's about the long term support. The hon. Gentleman outlined that in terms of what failed and why homelessness went up. What you'll find is that in areas where a project or in areas where a project or initiative has been successful, more people will gravitate towards that area. What we are trying to do is to ensure that there's support right across the country, so that every area is helped in dealing with rough sleeping and homes.

with rough sleeping and homes.

17:42

Dr Allison Gardner MP (Stoke-on-Trent South, Labour)

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Allison Gardner thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

17:42

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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service providers and people with lived experience to tackle the issue of homelessness. For those who experience substance misuse, a who experience substance misuse, a particular challenge they experience is in receiving mental health treatment concurrently with health treatment concurrently with drug and alcohol treatment. Does the Minister agree with me that it is absolutely vital that mental is absolutely vital that mental health support must work concurrently with all other service providers to provide a sustainable pathway to recovery for this pathway to recovery for this vulnerable group of people? And would she take me up on my offer to visit my constituency and maybe attend a task force meeting?

17:43

Sarah Pochin MP (Runcorn and Helsby, Reform UK)

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Hear, hear. thank my hon. Friend for that. She has asked me to visit, and I promise I will look at that. And and she's absolutely right. For a and she's absolutely right. For a number of people sleeping rough and experiencing homelessness, there are a number of complex challenges and needs which fall to our, in some cases, very stretched mental health provision and substance misuse across the country. So we are looking at continuing that vital partnership work with colleagues along NHS to ensure that those local services are helping people in terms of making sure there's a right pathway to support them before they then get housing.

17:44

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Sarah Pochin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> It does seem that her department is working against the Department of Justice in clearly a different of Justice in clearly a different direction. Can I point out that early release of prisoners, dangerous criminals onto our streets of no fixed abode cannot be tagged. Those prisoners cannot be tagged if their rough sleeping. tagged if their rough sleeping. They cannot be tagged. So will the Minister make it a priority to house those criminals, those early house those criminals, those early release prisoners, so that the public can be protected?

17:44

Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )

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Thank you. forcing people, we cannot force anybody into housing. We have to work and assess people on an individual basis.

17:44

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Andrew Pakes yeah, yeah. >> Andrew Pakes yeah, yeah. >> Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, the mission of social justice runs through all of our faith organisations in this country, and nowhere is that greater than in the nowhere is that greater than in the work of the churches in tackling homelessness and helping give people a second or third chance in life. It was a privilege to attend today's Rough Sleepers Summit alongside my hon. Friend. But so many faith organisations across this country in my constituency, projects like the Salvation Army, The Light Project and Hope Into Action have worked for years on this agenda.

Can my hon. Friend reassure us that faith organisations and the expertise and care and love that they provide in our communities will be central to this, this new strategy as it goes forward?

17:45

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, and I'm pleased to hear comments, and I'm pleased to hear that he found the summit inspiring. He found the summit challenging. He found the summit meaningful and purposeful in addressing and coming together to address this. And he's absolutely right. The faith community right across the UK have been doing a lot of work in this area, supporting and providing that charity and support for so many people, where in some cases people have turned away, people have shunned them, people have harassed them, people have attacked them.

But the faith communities continue to open their doors. And it's a vital, important that we'll continue to work with the faith community and voluntary sector in addressing this mission.

17:46

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Vikki Slade thank you, Madam >> Vikki Slade thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker 1 in 6 care leavers experienced rough sleeping, and last week I met with step by step who support young people in Dorset and across the south. They were telling me that young people in supported housing and foyers dread the cliff edge of their 18th birthday, because it can mean eviction as benefits assume that young people are living at home. So what will the Minister be doing with colleagues in DWP to support specifically support care leavers with the full rate of Universal Credit so they don't end up on the streets at the very moment they achieve adulthood?

17:46

Deirdre Costigan MP (Ealing Southall, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a key area that we discuss and I've continued to discuss with the Minister responsibility. This is I'm hoping that we'll have some additional updates to come to to give to to the hon. Member. And it's vitally important that we recognise for many young people, once they hit 18, they still may not be able to live independently. So it's important that we look at support for them as they transition into adulthood.

Madam.

17:47

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Deputy Speaker and I thank the >> Deputy Speaker and I thank the Minister for her statement today. And this £874 million investment And this £874 million investment into ending rough sleeping. But I particularly welcome this government giving local leaders the power to make decisions that work best for their own area. Given the very different character of rough sleeping in Ealing Southall, where the vast majority have no recourse to public funds, will she work with Ealing Council and help for South Hall Street homeless, based at Saint Anselm's Church, to give them the funding and the powers they need.

So the very unique circumstances for rough sleepers in Ealing Southall can be addressed.

17:47

Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)

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I thank my hon. Friend for raising that important point, and she'll be absolutely right. In many inner urban areas, you'll find a lot of people without recourse to public funds, and it's vitally important that local authorities have to exercise discretion in terms of that local connection and people with no recourse to local funds, where there shouldn't be a barrier for people accessing support. Local authorities have to assess individuals based on their needs, including accommodation, and how they can refer them on to additional, additional and appropriate services to help them.

17:48

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Liz Saville-Roberts.

17:48

Lee Pitcher MP (Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme, Labour)

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I recently attended a veterans breakfast at HMP Berwyn, the huge prison that serves North Wales and prison that serves North Wales and much of north west England as well. And I was told by veterans charities representatives that arranging housing across the border, particularly for veterans, many who are not, do not have family associations with local authorities, was particularly difficult. Could she look into cross border issues in relation to prisoner release, particularly across the border, of course, between England and Wales?

17:48

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm happy to look into that and I'm happy to look into that and come back to the hon. Lady Lee Pitcher. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today's announcement is hugely important. Step forward, as is having a Prime Minister who has put ending rough sleeping front and centre of the political agenda. As a patron of Doncaster Housing for young people, I also see the difference in wraparound support gives to those people who are vulnerable to homelessness. So will the government ensure that we measure success, not just by the number of people helped off the streets, but by how many people are able to rebuild their lives and remain in secure accommodation for the longer term.

17:49

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Your Party)

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I thank my hon. Friend for raising that vital point. And as I highlighted, this isn't just about giving people a roof over their heads for Christmas. This is about heads for Christmas. This is about the long term support, including wraparound, vital wraparound wraparound, vital wraparound support to help people be able to stay off the streets and so that they can make a meaningful contribution back to society. A number of people who found themselves ending, ending and sleeping rough and homelessness actually want to go back and and offer their vital skills in terms of employment training.

So it's vital that we are looking at not just the Bedford Christmas, but support afterwards.

17:50

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Jeremy Corbyn thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. to achieve the aims that the Minister has outlined, could she please end the intentionally homeless rule that is often cruelly homeless rule that is often cruelly applied to people who end up being homeless? Will she increase the local housing allowance to a realistic level compared to local rents? And finally, will she intervene and stop housing associations selling off empty properties in areas of high housing stress, when they should be housing? People who are in desperate housing need not sold on the open market.

17:50

Tom Collins MP (Worcester, Labour)

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I thank the right number gentleman for raising those really vital areas. And I think he's he's absolutely right in terms of looking at the terminology and unintentionally homeless. And I know that this is something that know that this is something that colleagues continue to look at on the issue of the local housing allowance. I know that this is an area that's. Myself and other Ministers continue to press with the Treasury and will continue to do so with regards to housing associations and councils selling off some of their empty properties, it's vitally important that those housing associations and councils have the capital funding to bring those properties back into use, and it's important that we'll continue to work with them to how they manage those properties.

17:51

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Tom Collins thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In Worcester, I Deputy Speaker. In Worcester, I recently hosted a summit attended by representatives of over 30 organisations, from national government to regional agencies and authorities, all the way to local charities and churches, who all pledged to work together to end rough sleeping in Worcester. One of the outcomes of that summit was that it was clear not only do we need more resources, which were incredibly welcome, but we also need to change the way of working when people are affected by long term ill health or disabilities, or the effects of crime and trauma.

They need holistic support delivered relationally, and this cuts across all government departments and services. So will the Minister meet with me to discuss how we might roll out a change that wraps around people across government?

17:51

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for >> I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that. It seems like he jumped the gun and held his own summit before we did at number ten today, and it's good to hear the lessons we learned there, because that was similarly what happened today at the number ten summit, where organisations, charities, civic society, local leaders, local authorities, businesses all coming together, all making a pledge in terms of making sure we are working towards this. And it's really vital that we learn lessons from that. And I'd be very happy to meet with my hon.

Friend.

17:52

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Alison Bennett. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I really recognise the Minister's description of councils jumping through hoops to councils jumping through hoops to access a patchwork of funding pot. That is certainly the case in Mid Sussex District Council. They were Sussex District Council. They were successful in accessing central government money to buy temporary accommodation, which is providing absolutely vital homes in our district. However, when it comes to regenerating Burgess Hill town centre, it doesn't matter whether it's a conservative or a Labour government. We've been unsuccessful in accessing levelling up funding and last week Burgess Hill Town Council wrote to me about them not receiving any money for pride in place.

Will the Minister come and visit Burgess Hill to see the work that we are doing? that we are doing?

17:53

Kirsteen Sullivan MP (Bathgate and Linlithgow, Labour )

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I thank the hon. Lady for raising that, and it's really good to make sure I am getting out of South London, so I will look at that diary, permitting to make sure I come and see that. And it's vitally important. What we are seeing with this government is ensuring that we are removing some of the ring fence that comes with that vital funding that councils need. So I'm hoping that her council will be successful in this new round.

17:53

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Kirsteen Sullivan thank. >> You, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his statement and indeed, this government's willingness to grasp the nettle to willingness to grasp the nettle to end rough sleeping and homelessness. I am also grateful that she mentioned temporary accommodation and the wider impact of not having somewhere to permanently call home, particularly on children, because the number of children living in temporary accommodation in Scotland has risen by 22% since 2022, despite the Scottish Government declaring a housing emergency in 2024. So can I ask what conversations she has had with the Scottish Government about tackling the number of families languishing in temporary accommodation?

If both governments are to be successful in meeting their goals of ending child poverty?

17:54

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I thank the hon. Member for raising that vital, important point and it's really sad to see those increases of 22%. It's a shame we don't have any of the opposition SNP members in terms of holding their government to account on this, and we'll continue to press and ask and work closely with devolved administrations in ensuring that no

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child is left behind. Jim Shannon WRC. First of all, thank the Minister very much for thank the Minister very much for her statement and also to hear that her voice is recuperated after last Thursday's debate on Black Lives Thursday's debate on Black Lives Matter. Minister, the. When it comes to the money, the £432 million has been allocated. Churches across this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland do do

17:55

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Ireland. In Northern Ireland do do lots work for homeless people. The Salvation Army that operates in my constituency of Strangford operates across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Veteran charities operate across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Our words in Northern Ireland, the charities that work there and work here do the same work. What can be done to ensure that those charities working in Northern Ireland can also receive some of the help? And will the Minister give an undertaking to work with the Department of Communities? Minister at the Northern Ireland Assembly to ensure that delivery can happen across across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Thank you.

17:55

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's always a pleasure to take a question from the hon. Gentleman, question from the hon. Gentleman, and I thank him for that and raising the vital work that's happening in his constituency and across Northern Ireland. This funding is new money and and part of it, additional part of it will be agreed in the Budget process with with the Treasury and and the hon. Member will be aware that as part of the normal Barnett consequentials, this will apply to all devolved administrations.

So there will also receive that additional funding.

17:56

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Steve Race thank you. >> To draw the attention of the House to my register of interest, as I'm very proud patron of Exeter's local homelessness charity, Saint Petrox. I was very grateful for the opportunity to join the Minister this morning at number ten. Rough Sleeping Summit set out the Exeter's experiences. We do have one of the highest increasing levels of rough sleeping in the country. The Prime Minister made the point that we need to be treating people as numbers, as as people, not as numbers. That is absolutely the way of the local charities like Colab, like Saint Petrox, who know these people individually and they should lead the way.

But does the Minister agree with me that statutory services like the NHS, like the Prison Service, really need to step to.

17:56

David Williams MP (Stoke-on-Trent North, Labour)

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Yeah. raising that. And it's good to see that many local areas are sharing their experience of dealing with this. We have to be honest that a person sleeping rough cost a taxpayer on average around £14,000 a year in terms of public service use. So it's really important that we are working across the different departments. This is not just an issue for Mhclg. This has to be a whole government approach, which is why I'm really pleased that we have

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the strong inter-ministerial group to address this. David Williams Madam Deputy

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David Williams Madam Deputy Speaker, Having worked for our local YMCA in Stoke on Trent for nearly two decades before entering nearly two decades before entering this place, this is personal to me, so I warmly welcome the statement and I'm so pleased to attend the and I'm so pleased to attend the Homelessness Summit at number ten earlier today. And at that summit, the Prime Minister rightly talked the Prime Minister rightly talked about seeing people talking about getting to know their names and not treating people as numbers and

17:57

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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statistics. This is about giving people what we all need in life. It's about love, hope and dignity. And we've heard today about the important role the voluntary sector plays in that. So does the Minister agree with me that voluntary and community sector partners are absolutely critical to get this absolutely critical to get this right, as they're they are rooted in the communities they serve. And can I offer a visit to meet some of

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can I offer a visit to meet some of our fantastic organisations up in Stoke-on-Trent North in Kidsgrove? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

17:58

Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)

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and I thank the hon. Gentleman for the expertise and knowledge that he brings and some of the comments he's already shared with me today in terms of how we address this. And he's absolutely right in terms of the work being led by many of the work being led by many voluntary and charity groups right across the country, working hand in hand, regardless of which hand, regardless of which government is in control. These these groups continue to work working with people who in some areas, society have said they're areas, society have said they're too hard to reach.

They're not hard to reach. We just don't know how to reach them.

17:58

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Sean Woodcock thank. key driver of homelessness is high house prices. Now, many of the measures announced today and over recent months, while welcome, are focussed in areas with mayors in the South East. However, devolution has stalled, meaning that some of these levers will not be available. Could the. Can I urge the Minister and the Secretary of State, who was earlier sat next to her to get on with delivering devolution across the South East so that we can tackle the issue of homelessness in areas with high house prices, including the Thames Valley.

17:59

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for that important question. And it's right this is our devolution revolution, and we are working hard to ensure that happens across the country.

17:59

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Gordon McKee thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. One person sleeping rough is one person too sleeping rough is one person too many. But recently published figures show in Glasgow, there have been 793 people left to sleep on the street this year alone. I agree with the Minister's assessment that the best way to tackle this is properly empowered local government and properly resourced local government. So will she restate and expand on the Prime Minister's governments, so that together we can ensure that no one is left to sleep rough in Glasgow or anywhere across the country.

17:59

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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Yes.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And that was a key statement from both the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and myself. As Secretary of State and myself. As the Minister with responsibility, we have to work across the aisles. We have to work with devolved We have to work with devolved nations. We have to work with charities, with businesses. There was a range of people at that was a range of people at that summit today stepping up to that mantra, and it's really important that our local authority leaders take on that challenge.

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take on that challenge. Jim Dickson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and can I applaud the minister's ambition to get to

18:01

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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the minister's ambition to get to zero rough sleeping and the money that's on the table to get there, but would she agree with me that but would she agree with me that the key to achieving that objective is government councils and third sector organisations working sector organisations working together to provide a pathway off the streets into sustained accommodation, with support on accommodation, with support on every step of that journey for the homeless person. And would she join with me in paying tribute to Porchlight in my constituency, have been working across Kent over the been working across Kent over the last 50 years to get rough sleepers off the street and do fantastic work with the NHS and Saint Edmunds

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work with the NHS and Saint Edmunds church has brought rough sleepers in Dartford. Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I'd like to join on gentleman in supporting the work led by Porchlight 50 years and may they continue to support that work for continue to support that work for many more years. And my hon. Friend is right. It is about the wider programme to look at that tailored support, working with different organisations, groups, charities, faith groups, civic society, businesses to look at that long term support to help people off the streets.

18:01

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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And the final question on this statement.

18:01

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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someone that worked for a homeless charity, the wonderful Streets homes in my constituency of Harlow,

18:01

Florence Eshalomi MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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homes in my constituency of Harlow, this statement and the ongoing commitment of this government to tackle rough sleeping is hugely important to me. I hope she will recognise she has recognised some of the answers she's given so far, the importance of the CVS sector in terms of tackling rough sleeping, not just charities like Street Times, but also charities like Open Road that tackle alcohol addiction Road that tackle alcohol addiction in Harlow as well. But quite often the funding for the CVS is sporadic. It's often not long term, and often it's postcode dependent. So what will she do to ensure that brilliant charities like Streets and Homes and Open Road, and get the long term support funding they need to tackle rough sleeping and

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the causes of rough sleeping? Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's always good to see my hon. Friend from Harlow recognising the many charities across his constituency, the many charities and voluntary groups right across the country working on this really the country working on this really important area. What's really important, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman and many members will see Gentleman and many members will see that many organisations were saying they wanted certainty and that funding. I hope that this increased funding will give that those organisations, that certainty to ensure that this work continues, not just up to Christmas but after Christmas.

And it's a key commitment from the Prime Minister, and it's one that will honour.

18:02

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the the Home Affairs Committee's inquiry on Work-based immigration

OK. >> OK. >> That concludes the statement, and I'll give the Frontbenches a few moments to swap over before we

18:03

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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begin the Select Committee statement. Welcome to the Select Committee statement. On behalf of the Home Affairs Committee, Dame Karen Bradley will speak up to ten minutes during which no interventions may be taken. And at interventions may be taken. And at the conclusion of the statement, members may ask questions on the subject of the statement. These subject of the statement. These should be brief questions and not speeches. I call Dame Karen Bradley. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful for this opportunity to highlight the Home Affairs Committees new inquiry on work based immigration, and to explain the innovative approach that we have used to get to decide to to make this to make this inquiry.

I want to thank the backbench Business Committee for allowing time for this statement. I know the chair is staying just for that. Thank you. But he's welcome to leave now. So when I was elected chair of the Home Affairs Committee, one of the things I talked about was wanting to have a more informed and considered debate on immigration, one that recognises the distinction between legal migration, visas for work, family study, humanitarian purposes and irregular migration, which by which we mean nowadays small boats where the numbers are much lower. But the attention is, of course, much higher.

A debate that digs into the reasons why net migration numbers have followed their path they have, and how reducing these numbers. The stated aim of successive governments, can be achieved in a way that is both fair and serves our economic and national interests. To do this, the committee decided to commission a series of deliberative workshops instead of relying on opinion polls or surveys, which can only ever give a snapshot of views. We partnered with the think tank demos to design and deliver a rigorous, deliberative process, and I want to thank the Liaison Committee for supporting us financially with that.

This is a process where ordinary people selected to reflect the make up of the local population. Learn about the issue, discuss it with one another and work towards agreeing conclusions. We chose work based immigration as the focus of these workshops, because this is an area of ongoing contention. The policy is constantly under review, so open to influence and importantly, the government has effective levers to determine who is allowed to come to the UK on a work visa, so people could better understand the complexities and the trade offs in policy making. We wanted to hear from people in different parts of the country and we chose North Tyneside, Leicester and Renfrewshire and we wanted to share with them the kind of conversations that go on within Whitehall.

We know these questions are hard to resolve. I've been a Minister in the Home Office and I know that it's hard. And the current Minister, who was a member of the committee at the time, I sympathise with the challenges she faces. Earlier this month, the Home Secretary revealed that she gets almost weekly requests from other Ministers to provide visas for foreign workers in different sectors. This is at the heart of the issue, the extent to which we want to rely on migrant labour and skills, and the weighing up of the economic and social factors that influence the decision.

We published the report, produced by demos, on the results of the workshops on 7th of September, and this is available in the vote office. I hope it will be of interest to other honourable and right, other right hon. Members and to other Select committees whose remit includes areas affected by immigration. Between them, the 89 participants at the three workshops produced a list of 13 principles that they thought should underpin policy on work based immigration, and they ranked them in order. It was striking that the number one priority is all three workshops in three totally different parts of the country was that government should focus on training, upskilling and employment opportunities for UK residents, especially young people, before relying on migrant labour.

The second highest ranked principle was on the need to ensure local infrastructure can support migrants and existing residents. The third and fourth principles were the need for better workforce planning, and for migrant workers to be protected from abuse by employers. The fifth principle was about promoting honest and balanced public conversation about immigration. That was our intention when we started this work, and I am pleased that the members of the public who participated at our workshops agreed with this aim, and it is now up to us in this House to help promote that honest conversation. And I'm pleased that the Prime Minister has now joined us in calling for an honest discussion on this subject.

Although freedom of movement was not a question on the table when we started this work, we are also reliant on the media to move away from the soundbites and simplistic characterisations, the misleading memes and social media disinformation that only serves to polarise and infantilize. Whilst there was more support for restricting numbers of low skilled migrant workers than higher skilled, there was also some support for restricting neither. Similarly, there were differing views on whether we should prioritise short or long term work visas. The most common view was that we need both, but the discussions revealed interesting nuances.

For example, participants who prioritise greater integration found themselves arguing for longer term work visas, which was not necessarily their starting position. They saw how policy design can have wider impacts and considered the interaction between competing objectives in reaching conclusions. That is, the value of this deliberative approach. When we received the report on the results of the workshops, we considered how best to use the conclusions to inform our future work on immigration and at the launch event for the report on 7th of September, I announced our intention to hold an inquiry based on the principles identified through the workshops.

Our inquiry will focus on the top principle agreed in the workshops to focus on training, upskilling and employment opportunities for UK migrants, especially young people, before relying on migrant labour. We announced the full terms of reference on 15th of September. These outlined the detailed questions that need to be answered in order to deliver an outcome that respects that principle. The government has undertaken to link its immigration policy to skills. We are going to scrutinise how they are proposing to do this. We will also examine the role that migration does and should play in responding to labour shortages, and how this can be more firmly linked to skills.

We will look at the Home Office's approach to managing the skilled worker visa, and how this links to wider skills policy. We plan to scrutinise the Labour Market Evidence Group, the agencies that advise on workplace migration policy, and test how the different objectives of different government departments are managed, and how judgements related to shortages and skill levels are made. And we also plan to hear the view of voice of the public throughout our evidence sessions on the basis of the evidence we gather, but also what we've learned from the workshops. Madam Deputy Speaker, artificial intelligence is affecting pretty much every aspect of life and will continue to do so.

Consultations are no exception. Most of our inquiries retract large volumes of written evidence, and we really do value this evidence and draw heavily upon it to inform our thinking, our conclusions and recommendations. We depend on it to do our work. But there are signs now, and I'm sure that colleagues are seeing this in their constituency correspondence and in other committees, that AI is being used by increasing numbers to generate lengthy submissions that don't necessarily add anything new to the evidence base. There are resources implications for handling large volumes of written evidence and questions around the value.

I know that work is going on amongst select committees to look at how we can secure high quality contributions to our inquiries, the experiences from those at the sharp end of policies and, when warranted, the considered views and informed cross section of the public. There are, of course, resource implications here as well, but I hope that the Liaison Committee might consider how best we allocate resources to best support our scrutiny of difficult policy issues in the age of artificial intelligence. What we learned from our experience. Those of us who observed the workshops and speaking to the participants, is this even on a subject as sensitive and divisive as immigration, people are capable of having a reasoned, respectful and constructive conversation.

Not only that, they obviously valid the opportunity to

18:11

Chris Murray MP (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, Labour)

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engage with each other. Different communities that don't always mix, and with the political process in a and with the political process in a meaningful way. And they valued being listened to at the end. Their being listened to at the end. Their views on our political process was more positive. So I look forward to returning to the House with the conclusion to this inquiry and the government response to it in due course. In the meantime, I'm happy course. In the meantime, I'm happy to respond to any questions. I call Chris Murray.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I begin by, as someone who served on the Home Affairs Committee for two years, just by paying tribute to the chair and the other members of the committee who I can see around the room, it is a I can see around the room, it is a I'm a very partisan person and I enjoy a partisan political fight. But in a Select Committee, you do work with people from other parties and get into the weeds about complex, difficult issues, and I complex, difficult issues, and I find it very rewarding experience that brings a lot to democracy.

So I want to pay tribute to the members of the committee. I think this is a really important statement that we've just heard in report that's been published, because although immigration is one of the most divisive political issues, what this report shows us is that the public are nothing like as polarised as we would think. The public in these deliberations. And I attended the one in Renfrewshire with the committee. The public on immigration are willing to engage in the trade offs and find a common ground between different positions. There is very rarely someone who is 100% pro-immigration or 100% anti-immigration.

There are much more open to persuasion. And can I just ask the chair if she agrees

18:13

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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with me, that what this report shows is that economic migration is shows is that economic migration is a tool of economic policy, but we struggle to talk about it because it is occluded by discussions on it is occluded by discussions on the small boats and that the public are willing to engage with complexity and with the trade offs involved, but they are far more thoughtful and engaged than social media. And the press would have us

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media. And the press would have us think on this issue. Yeah. I thank the hon. Gentleman who I'll call my hon. Friend. We will very much miss him on the committee. I know he's officially discharged this evening along with the Minister, and it will be it's a sad day for the committee to lose his expertise. And I think we all found from attending the workshops just how sophisticated the conversation became. And people who started off with perhaps very polarised positions and opinions and bearing in mind people spent a day and a half being together, hearing from experts, talking about the issues.

And to hear that actually, when we we finished with each of the workshops had ten recommendations each, which could actually be distilled into 13 recommendations. Remarkable similarity in terms of Remarkable similarity in terms of recommendations from some very, very different places. And he's absolutely right that the the level absolutely right that the the level of conversation and debate was was really heartening to hear. And it showed that these conversations can happen in an adult way.

18:14

Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

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Alistair Carmichael thank. right hon. Lady and her committee for the report? She will be aware that there are many agricultural sectors that rely heavily on migrant labour, and that the Home Office are telling us that we need to upskill our own workforce to take the place of those workers. But can I draw to her attention the situation around foreign sheep shearers who come to this country for a very short period of time, 3 to 4 months every year they come here, they share the largest flocks. We reckon they do in excess of a million sheep in that very short period of time.

Then they move on and they share in other parts of the world an opportunity that they take. A number of our own local shearers with them. And it's a great opportunity for young people from farming communities. Nobody is from farming communities. Nobody is going to train to the level that these people need to operate for work. That is only going to be 3 or work. That is only going to be 3 or 4 months of the year. Can I encourage her to bring some pressure to bear on the Home Office pressure to bear on the Home Office to bring a more realistic view to the particular position of sheep shearers?

18:15

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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Yes.

18:15

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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My right hon. Friend, for that point, he's made it very eloquently. There are many skills that we. We simply do not train people. Welding is another example because of course, welding is something where the pay is so good. Why would anybody become a teacher of welding on a much lower salary rather than being a welder themselves? And that's why we have the problem with welding, being trained at welders being trained in this country. But he makes a very valuable point about sheep shearers. As a MP for a very rural area, I don't quite have the sheep shearing problem, but I'm sure there'll be issues on dairy that will be raised with me there.

Meg Hillier thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I congratulate the committee on this work, which has been innovative, as I would expect from the hon. Lady as chair, a leading leading that team, I wonder I wonder what work she's done with the Immigration Advisory Committee. Obviously, this is an important committee that examines jobs that sometimes haven't got names yet, so I think that was an issue in my the tech part of my constituency shortage a number of years ago. One emerging issue is so we moved from sheep shearers to high end chefs.

We. My constituency is the hub of

18:16

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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some of the best international cuisine in. You know, and attracts people from around the world. And people from around the world. And yet those chefs are difficult to. It's difficult to get chefs in through Immigration Rules, even if they've studied, for example, in universities in, in Japan and, and worked in high end restaurants around the world. And I wonder in around the world. And I wonder in her work if she will consider the work of the Immigration Advisory Committee and how it can keep up Committee and how it can keep up with these trends. Peckham Karen Bradley can I thank the chair of the Liaison Committee and for her support in allowing us to conduct this work?

She again makes a very important point, and I'm sure many

18:17

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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of us have enjoyed eating and drinking in her constituency with the very high end, excellent restaurants that there are there. restaurants that there are there. But again, she makes a valuable point. We did make sure there were experts involved in the evaluation committee, so people that were experts in these areas. But I think experts in these areas. But I think she this is a point, again, that we will absolutely come back to during our work.

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Jim Shannon Madam Deputy Speaker, can I thank first of all, the chair of the committee for her recommendations and for the hard work that they do, but when it comes to work based immigration, I wonder, has the committee had the opportunity to look at the visas or probably seasonal visas for those in the in the fishing sector? I know the hon. Gentleman who you asked the question before, and I we have been pushing the Minister for some time to ensure that the that the visas, the seasonal visas for the the fishing sector would be agreed.

Previous meetings with Ministers, which seem to give a a

18:18

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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way forward. And with every movement. This life is about solutions, is about opportunities. solutions, is about opportunities. Has the. The Committee had an opportunity to look at that to ensure that the visas for the ensure that the visas for the fishing sector, seasonal or. They don't want to come and live here. They just want to come for a short

18:18

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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period of time and earn money and send it home and go home as well. So that's one that I would like the

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committee to look at. Has the hon. Lady had that opportunity, please? Thank you. Minister. Be disappointed if I've not got the chance to respond to the. My hon. Friend from Strangford. So I appreciate his question. We've just started the work on this on this inquiry, but I note his comments, and I'm sure that they will be evidence that will be given to us about that particular issue. We will take account of Anna Dixon.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to also commend the deliberative work and innovative deliberative work and innovative way the Committee is taking evidence on this subject. As a member of the Public Accounts member of the Public Accounts Committee, we did an inquiry into the skilled worker visa scheme, and in that we found that it was in that we found that it was particularly problematic for care workers, where a migrants right to remain in the UK is dependent on remain in the UK is dependent on their sponsorship by a particular employer.

So where that was revoked, it would often leave them

18:19

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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vulnerable to exploitation. I wonder if the right hon. Lady could say, is it the select committee's intention to take evidence from overseas care workers and care providers as part of their deliberations? And also, will the committee consider the benefits of committee consider the benefits of a sector wide sponsorship for care workers? And also look at how we can promote care worker careers to can promote care worker careers to young people, in particular those who are not in education, employment or training.

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Dan Karen Bradley, can I thank the hon. Lady who's an esteemed member of the Public Accounts Committee, and I note the comments Committee, and I note the comments she's made. In my previous incarnation as Minister for Modern Slavery, tied employment was always Slavery, tied employment was always one of those areas where there was concern about potential abuse, concern about potential abuse, because abuse by the existing employer. But also, as she says, if

18:20

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the Third Report of the Scottish Affairs Committee, Securing Scotland’s future: Defence skills and jobs, HC 165

employer. But also, as she says, if the employment ends, what happens to the individual whose employment status, sorry, immigration status makes them then more vulnerable to exploitation?

18:20

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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We have not yet had a chance to go through all the evidence we've received. We are open to receiving evidence. The inquiry is open and we would really appreciate having we would really appreciate having that evidence, and then we'll make decisions about who we will get in for oral evidence. But I have noted her.

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her. And that concludes the Home Affairs Select Committee statement. And we now come to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Patricia Ferguson will speak for up to ten minutes, during which no interventions may be taken. At the conclusion of the statement, members may ask questions on the subject of the statement. These should be brief questions and not

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speeches. I call Patricia Ferguson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm very grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for a statement on the publication of the Scottish Affairs Committee's report. Affairs Committee's report. Securing Scotland's future defence skills and jobs. As the House will skills and jobs. As the House will know, significant increases in defence spending are anticipated as the UK works towards our commitment the UK works towards our commitment to spend 3.5% of GDP on defence by 2035. Our inquiry examined a simple but important question therefore, how can we maximise the positive impact of this spending in Scotland?

Scotland already has a world leading defence sector, from shipbuilding on the Clyde and Rosyth to aerospace, advanced manufacturing and cyber capability, growth in the sector has the potential to create more highly skilled jobs and support economic growth across Scotland, including, importantly, in rural and island communities. The Strategic Defence Review, the Defence Industrial Strategy and the Defence Investment Plan provide the framework for delivering these ambitions and for ensuring Scotland is well placed to benefit from increased investment. However, our inquiry has shown that it is not a given that increased defence spending will benefit Scotland. We cannot afford to be complacent.

Ensuring Scotland benefits will require long term planning and cooperation between the UK and Scottish Governments to support jobs, skills development, innovation and growth. The clearest message we heard throughout our inquiry was about skills, employers, colleges, universities and trade bodies across Scotland. Repeatedly told us that the defence industry faces skills shortages. These shortages include engineering, fabrication, welding software, cyber and advanced manufacturing. This, of course, is despite major defence programs such as the type 26 and type 31 frigates and the dreadnought class submarines. Such major programmes will require a sustained pipeline of highly skilled Scottish workers for years to come, and this will be all the more important as the UK government continues to win and sign deals for the export of Scottish made defence products, such as frigates.

Now we have heard similar messages about skill shortages in our inquiries into other sectors including offshore wind, civilian shipbuilding and space launch, to name but a few. And many of these sectors, which are key to our economic prosperity and to the UK's strategic interests, are competing for the same pool of skilled workers. Without investment in training and apprenticeships, there is a real risk of one sector solving its skill shortage by poaching workers from another sector. And that is why apprenticeships are such an important focus of our report. During our committee visit to BAE systems, part of which I am proud to say is located in my Glasgow West constituency.

We met with young people whose expertise and enthusiasm demonstrated the enormous potential of apprenticeships and early career routes in the industry. However, demand for apprenticeship places far exceeds supply, with engineering programs often attracting many thousands of applicants for a very limited number of places. And our report highlights the importance of that talent pipeline. Keeping pace with future demand. This will require the UK and Scottish governments to work together effectively as policies impacting the sector span both reserved and devolved responsibilities. Defence policy, as we know, is reserved. While education skills and apprenticeships are devolved and our report calls on both governments to work together to increase defence related apprenticeships in Scotland, our report also welcomes direct investment through the Defence Industrial Strategy Skills Package.

Through this package, Scotland will receive a share of £20 million allocated for the devolved nations. This funding is absolutely welcome. However, £20 million is a small fraction of the full £180 million UK wide package and it must of course be shared across Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, meaning Scotland will receive a disproportionately small share of the total UK fund. Our committee also questions whether such a limited share of funding can really shift the dial on skills shortages, and we call on the government to explain how this funding is commensurate with the size, importance and potential of Scotland's defence sector sector and we look forward to the government's response on this point.

Moving on from apprenticeships, our report also looks at the Defence Technical Excellence Colleges, or Dtcs D techs, are specialist colleges designed to provide advanced technical training for defence careers. They will help develop the skills that employers tell us, tell us they need. And we heard overwhelming support for de techs, and we believe they could have the potential to address persistent skills shortages. The UK government has proposed two De techs in Scotland, one in the East and one in the West, and has provided funding for one of them. The establishment of both De techs is subject to match funding from the Scottish Government.

The Committee strongly supports the establishment of both colleges and. We stated in our report last month that we hope to see the Scottish Government provide the funding required, so the Committee is very pleased to see that since our report was published last month, the Scottish Government has confirmed that it will provide the funding required and both Te techs will go ahead. This is a positive outcome for Scotland and reflects the joined up approach we need to see, however, progress establishing De techs in Scotland has fallen a little behind counterparts south of the border, and we are concerned that further delay risks Scotland being left at a disadvantage.

We therefore urge both governments to work with greater urgency to deliver those colleges, because the skills challenges facing the sector are too pressing for Scotland to miss this opportunity. Our inquiry also examined the experiences of small and medium sized enterprises. SMEs form the backbone of Scotland's economy and play a critical role in the defence supply chain too, and we heard from numerous SMEs, many of which told us that participating in defence procurement remains difficult, that complex bidding requirements, high compliance costs and financial risk are all burdensome barriers to growth. Our report. Madam Deputy Speaker, therefore welcomes the creation of the MoD's Defence Office for Small Business Growth.

The office is designed to help SMEs and start ups access defence, supply chain and to scale up. It's too early to know whether the office will deliver meaningful change to help track its effectiveness, so our report calls on the Ministry of Defence to publish clear metrics for success. We also call for the MoD to favour those prime contractors committed to supporting SMEs in their supply chain. During our inquiry, we also heard about the particularly concerning issue of D banking. We heard first hand accounts of SMEs struggling to access banking and financial services, despite providing products and services which directly support our national security.

This is clearly unacceptable. These films firms are helping to strengthen our nation's security. They are creating skilled jobs. They are driving economic growth. Yet some are still being denied access to basic banking services. At a time when the government is scaling up the defence capability. So our report calls on the government to engage directly with the financial services sector to put an end to this problem. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, the report highlights wider challenges around public perceptions of defence. We heard concerns that misunderstandings about the sector negatively impact recruitment and discourage talented people from considering careers in defence.

Too often, discussion focuses narrowly on weapons and overlooks the engineers, researchers, software specialists, manufacturers and innovation innovators whose work contributes both to security and technological advancement. The committee therefore supports efforts to foster a broader national conversation about defence sector, about its role in protecting the country and the opportunities it creates for communities across Scotland. Ultimately, our report reaches a straightforward conclusion Scotland is exceptionally well placed to benefit from increased defence spending. But unlocking that

18:30

Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

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opportunity will require investment in our young people through apprenticeships, technical apprenticeships, technical education and initiatives such as the D techs. But it will also require government to provide certainty for the industry and support SMEs, which are so crucial support SMEs, which are so crucial and critical to us. In closing, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank everyone who contributes to our contributed to our inquiry to our contributed to our inquiry and my fellow committee members for their thoughtful and constructive work throughout. With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend the report to the House. Susan Murray thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon.

Lady

18:31

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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for her statement and for leading our inquiry. There are around 40 applicants for every apprenticeship applicants for every apprenticeship in engineering place in Scotland. The UK government has offered funding, as we have heard, for two funding, as we have heard, for two defence, technical and Excellent Excellence colleges, and the Excellence colleges, and the Scottish Government has agreed to match that funding. Does she agree with me that both governments should continue to work together so that Scotland gets as many apprenticeships as possible? I thank the hon.

Member for that contribution and I absolutely agree

18:32

Kirsteen Sullivan MP (Bathgate and Linlithgow, Labour )

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with her. I think the issue is that we are very grateful that the D techs are going to happen, and our credit to both governments for working together on that. But apprenticeships won't just come through the D text. They will come through our further education through our further education colleges too. And it's very important that they are given the resources to allow them to benefit resources to allow them to benefit not just from the defence sector jobs, but also from the jobs in, for example, clean energy that we for example, clean energy that we have heard so much about in our committee.

Kirsteen Sullivan thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank my hon. Friend for her statement, but also for her leadership in this wide ranging inquiry, and our committee heard from defence companies. And as my hon. Friend mentioned, they spoke of the banking, but they also spoke about sites being vandalised at significant cost. They talked about career fairs that were disrupted and sometimes forced to close due to direct action by protesters. This not only presents barriers to recruitment, but it also undermines investment and a key sector.

Does

18:33

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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she agree with me that this further underlines the need for a national conversation about defence, security and the ever evolving threats facing our country. And threats facing our country. And thus, she also agree that elected representatives and governments should engage in such a should engage in such a conversation in a responsible way that is fully cognisant of the geopolitical realities that we face. Patricia Ferguson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for that question. She is absolutely right to highlight that point, because it was raised with us by those in the defence sector.

I think we have to recognise that the right to peaceful protest is something that we would all absolutely respect and uphold, but I think she is right to highlight the problems that there have been in some on some occasions in the sector. But I draw heart from the experience of speaking to apprenticeships at BAE systems in my constituency, who, to my mind, are actually the best advocates for the work that they are doing and for the purpose to which that work will be put, because they were able will be put, because they were able to tell me in very straightforward terms, as they do their mates down the pub at the weekend, as a couple the pub at the weekend, as a couple of them told me about the importance of their work, why they were doing it and how proud they were doing it and how proud they were of it.

To Harriett Baldwin.

18:34

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Madam Deputy Speaker and may I thank the hon. Lady for her excellent report. Was she as shocked as I am to learn about the difficulty that firms in Scotland, in the defence sector have accessing the Bank basic banking services? And does she agree with me that it's because of the environmental, social and governance interpretation, which often doesn't recognise the fact often doesn't recognise the fact that we would have no environment, no society and no government governance if we didn't have a strong defence in this country.

18:35

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Thank you sir.

18:35

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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question. I think she's right about that. But I also think there's a great deal of misunderstanding great deal of misunderstanding around the defence sector. I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to understand its importance, people to understand its importance, not just globally and nationally, but locally too. And I think if that understanding were better recognised, it would be much, much better for the firms involved. And I would very much hope that the government takes our point that they need to engage with the financial services sector to address that one.

18:35

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Douglas McAllister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Figures announced last week confirmed that young apprenticeships in Scotland young apprenticeships in Scotland have fallen by a third since 2016. We need greater regional control over skills and training, and over skills and training, and decisions should be shaped by the people who best understand the industries, to plug the skills gap and take advantage of defence shipbuilding investment. So does the hon. Member agree with me that a successful example of this is the Applied Shipbuilding Training Academy, a £12 million facility at BA Systems in Scotstoun, Glasgow, which has offered apprenticeship opportunities to many young people

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in my West Dunbartonshire constituency. Patricia Ferguson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for that mention of the Skills Academy, which is in my constituency. So he will not be surprised to hear that. I agree with him entirely about that. That with him entirely about that. That is a facility that BA systems built themselves because they recognised themselves because they recognised the skills gap that was coming, and because they no longer wanted to have to employ welders that came from the Philippines at extortionate rates, and to take on board all the financial responsibilities that came with that.

That academy is an inspiration, frankly, and its way of teaching. What have been traditionally skills that were

18:37

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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regarded as being for men only very heavy industry and sometimes dangerous are those myths are dangerous are those myths are busted about these particular trades in that academy. And it's wonderful to see the young people wonderful to see the young people so enthusiastic about the jobs and about the future that they know they will have because of the work that is going on.

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that is going on. Bob Blackman chair and the committee and all of the team that pulled this together, including the clerks that assisted on it. And it's shocking in the report that less than a 10th of 1% of MoD spend is directly with SMEs in Scotland. I have spoken to the supplier Development programme in Scotland, and not only have they struggled to get the MoD to engage, but they've also got the MoD's tier one contractors have been unwilling to engage with them as well. Supplier Development Programme is all about training suppliers in how to apply for tenders.

Will the hon. Member

18:38

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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agree with me that more could be done to encourage those tier one contractors and the MoD to engage with programmes like the Player Development programme, so that more Development programme, so that more smaller contractors can get parts of defence contracts? And I'm not just talking about apprenticeships just talking about apprenticeships and welders, but cleaners and water fountain repairers and people who do all of the things that we don't

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do all of the things that we don't normally think about. But buildings would fall down without. Mr. Ferguson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Lady for that question. And she's absolutely right to mention our clerks, who are absolutely excellent and who not just keep us on our toes, but make sure that we get the best possible evidence that we can for our enquiries. So I am grateful to her for that. And she's right about the problem that many of the SMEs have. And I think sometimes it's easy just to think of those that are very technical in nature.

She describes, and we sometimes forget about the people that provide logistics and other services to these suppliers. I think it's important that the opportunities to benefit from the work in the sector are across the range, particularly in those areas where perhaps employment is more vulnerable or more fragile, and we want to see the government do as much as it can to allow those jobs to filter down.

18:39

Torcuil Crichton MP (Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Labour)

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Torcuil Crichton. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the chair for this report. One of many valuable reports that have come from the Scottish Affairs Committee under her leadership. Can I welcome, in particular, as it relates to unlocking the potential of businesses, SMEs in Scotland, which, according to the report, received less than 0.078% of MoD spending currently. That's why I was pleased to see the Minister for Defence Procurement launch a project safari at the MoD Hebrides range recently.

18:39

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Project Safari will make it easier and simpler for SMEs to access test, test and evaluation facilities here test and evaluation facilities here in the UK. And does the chair agree with me that the 50 highly skilled with me that the 50 highly skilled jobs at the Hebrides range and the vast area of the Atlantic it offers for test and evaluation are an for test and evaluation are an invaluable contribution to the defence capability of this country and also to help unlock the and also to help unlock the potential of SMEs. Scottish SMEs take advantage of places like that in order to grow their faith.

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Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for that question. The hon. Friend for that question. The Committee, as he knows, has visited many of the facilities in his many of the facilities in his constituency and in constituencies. I was going to say neighbouring, but you don't really have neighbouring constituencies in the neighbouring constituencies in the part of the world. My hon. Friend comes from. So perhaps, perhaps I'll just say adjacent constituencies. But, you know, 50 sounds like a small number to some of us. But for a community like us, 50 is a large number and those jobs are skilled jobs, and those are jobs that will be there for a long time to come.

So he's absolutely right to to raise that and to mention it. And I agree with him entirely that projects Safari is a great opportunity and it's great to great opportunity and it's great to see too, and not to use the word great too often, but it's great to great too often, but it's great to see the fact that his constituency, slightly remote though it is, is able to benefit from the defence able to benefit from the defence contracts that are available now across Scotland.

18:41

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Members may wish to be aware that I am letting this Select Committee statement overrun slightly to get everybody in, so we could. Please keep questions and answers concise.

18:41

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. I very much welcome the chair of the Select Committee. I just put forward, if you remove the word Scotland out of the report and added Northern Ireland, every recommendation would be the same recommendation for us. Some of the things that we've done in Northern things that we've done in Northern Ireland, for instance, have organised apprenticeships where the students get their students fees paid, but they also get a wage and has the the the committee had the opportunity to look at the. How that could be done in Scotland and has.

The committee also looked to ensure that men and women, especially the young girls and young ladies, have an opportunity to have an engineering project for for the future. Thank you so much.

18:42

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And if all of Northern Ireland has the ingenuity that the member has in weaving his constituency into every debate, we would be doing really, really well. We have not looked at Northern Ireland particularly. I do know, because it used to be based in my constituency. It has since moved to another part of the country, but I think he's absolutely right. It's very, very important and it's wonderful to see so many young women working in skills that were traditionally thought to be for men only.

18:42

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As my hon. Friend highlights, there's been long been a skills deficit in this area. Will, is it part of the plan that the committee will revisit this work to hold the government to account on the promises that have been made? Because we've heard promises from governments over years about apprenticeships. But if you have a stop start approach, we don't get that long term investment in skills that the defence industry so desperately need.

Ferguson.

18:43

Richard Baker MP (Glenrothes and Mid Fife, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the chair of the and I thank the chair of the Liaison Committee for that question. I think she's right to say that it's something that should be revisited. I suspect there are a number of aspects of our report that we will revisit. We will look forward, of course, to the government's response to the report. But I think as the years go forward in the rest of this parliamentary term, there are a number of points that we will come back to.

18:43

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Richard Baker Madam Deputy Speaker. Today, the Minister for Defence Procurement visited the metal yard in my constituency, metal yard in my constituency, which has already doubled its number of apprentices and the prospect of programme Houston new dry docks were being built at the yard means there could be hundreds more. Does my hon. Friend agree, then, that the recommendations in the report around apprenticeships show the need for these apprentice availabilities to be increased at pace for the opportunities lie ahead for Scottish yards?

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I was pleased to see his visit. Today went so well, and it is encouraging to see new opportunities like that. I think he makes the point that we've tried to raise in our report that there are great opportunities here, but it is up to everyone in Scotland governments, local authorities, manufacturers alike, to grasp those

18:44

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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18:57

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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The question is, as on the Order >> The question is, as on the Order Paper I call Dame Harriett Baldwin. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not expecting to be called quite so early in this debate, but can I congratulate my Worcestershire colleague for setting out so ably many of the problems that we've also got in the west of Worcestershire and having been a member of Parliament there for many, many years. I have to highlight the fact that it's really only been in the last year and a half, that this has become a big issue, if I can call it that, in my postbag, but probably by and large by email, Madam Deputy Speaker.

And it has it's become really the biggest issue that I'm hearing from my constituents on whether it's in Tenbury, Malvern, Pershore, Upton upon Severn and all the villages in between. This is something that is causing huge frustration to my constituents. And as the Member for Redditch has set it out and there are so many wishing to speak in this debate, I just want to get that on the record. And every time I write to Royal Mail about it, the response I get is never very convincing. It's often to do with the sickness in the sorting office or something along those lines, and it doesn't seem like a compelling reason why things have gone so badly wrong in the last 18 months or so.

So I welcome this opportunity. The Backbench Business Committee has given us to get these concerns on the record, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister about how she is going to be dealing both with Ofcom, the regulator, on this and also with the company itself, because clearly we must all aim to get a better service for our constituents. This is a service that's been running in this country for hundreds of years, and it's only gone wrong in the last year and a half.

18:59

Dave Robertson MP (Lichfield, Labour)

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19:11

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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19:18

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Darren Jones thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the hon. Friends for Redditch, hon. Friends for Redditch, Lichfield and their other friends for securing this important debate today? Can I say, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure to speak in this debate, but I'm disappointed we're having to have it yet again because we have been here before. Have we not the owners of Royal Mail prioritising profits over the public service requirements of the business they bought the regulator, seemingly unable to do anything about it at all, and postal workers once again being treated so badly when they are the ones who go out on the front line day in, day out day.

The question we therefore need to answer, Madam Deputy Speaker, is why, during my time as chair of the Business Committee in this House, in the previous Parliament, I spent days and days of parliamentary time cross-examining Royal Mail bosses, the then government and the regulator. I sought to give a voice to postal workers who too often than not felt voiceless, voiceless in the workplace. And I was proud to support the efforts of the CWU to give their members more strength than the power games that were being played between management and the workforce. But quite frankly, I ask the question, what good did it do?

The then chief executive was asked to move on, albeit with a handsome exit payment. A new owner has taken over the business. The regulator conducted its reviews, issued its fines, changed the universal service obligation. But yet again, we find ourselves here once again. The only conclusion I can come to, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that the business model is not fit for purpose, and we should not be shy in coming forward and saying this. The privatisation of the

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Royal Mail and its separation from the Post Office was a mistake. Yeah. The coalition government got

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The coalition government got this wrong. And so I hope it will now turn to this Labour government to put it right. Yeah. As far as I can see, there are only two real options. The first is to facilitate options. The first is to facilitate the end of the public service provided by the Royal Mail, and to let the current owners turn it into let the current owners turn it into a truly profitable business. We shouldn't be surprised that the new owners of Royal Mail want to make the business profitable, and to focus on on its profit making services.

That is the business they are in. But the problem with privatisation of a public service is that profit making comes first. So it falls to us to decide, as the guardians of public services in this country, will we protect the public service functions of the Royal Mail or not? Some might say it is not that binary. No doubt regulation of the of the parcels market to ensure fair competition would go a long way to help, and the government should ask the Competition and Markets Authority to conduct a market investigation into parcel deliveries, irrespective of what happens next to the Royal Mail.

But the House should be clear eyed about what it will mean if we continue with the privatised model. It will, in the end, be the end of the universal service obligation as we know it. This is important, Madam Deputy Speaker, because, as we've already heard today, the universal service obligation is not just about delivering letters, it is about having a human connection with the people of this country, at every doorstep of every house, in every community, across the width and breadth of the nation. The Covid pandemic showed why this network of postal workers matters so much, and I believe this will become more important, not less, in the future.

So for those making an economic case about the drop in letter deliveries being the end of the universal service obligation, let me say this. Think carefully about the end of this public service, because once it is gone, it will not come back. Which takes me to the second option. If Ministers agree with me that privatisation of the Royal Mail was a failure, then the only other real option is to renationalise it. The House may be surprised to hear me. Of all people say that I am not a natural fan of the government borrowing yet more money to nationalise businesses that can be effectively run by the private sector.

But this has been proven that the Royal Mail is an example of a business that cannot be run effectively by the private sector, and an example of a business which I believe the government can renationalise fairly easily within its fiscal rules. When the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Leeds and Pudsey West updated the fiscal rules in 2024, she defined the debt definition as public sector net financial liabilities, or snuffle, amongst friends. This allowed the government to borrow money to invest in assets whilst maintaining the debt rule target. That government debt should fall in the long term as a share of GDP.

In practice, this allows the government to use so-called financial transactions to pay for equity or debt financing of publicly owned assets. This could be done with the Royal Mail, and it would fall outside of the fiscal rules, which merely leaves the question of how to raise the money to do so. I am very conscious, Madam Deputy Speaker, that our national debt has risen to above £3 trillion and that the cost of that debt is expensive to the taxpayer, costing over £100 billion a year in interest payments alone. But I think there is a way through that.

Ministers should consider when the current owners of Royal Mail, International Distribution Services bought the Royal Mail in 2025, the deal was valued at £3.6 billion. We should therefore use that number for the purposes of the debate today. In the spending review that I conducted in 2025, we allocated £23.8 billion for financial transactions alone between 2020 526 and 20 2930, and we are told to expect the Chancellor to increase that Budget further this week. But financial transactions can only be used by departments to finance deals where there is a suitable public financial institution or puffin, and where the office for National Statistics agrees that it is a genuine financial transaction and not an attempt to redesign normal government spending so that it falls outside of the fiscal rules.

We have several well-established puffins from the National Wealth Fund to the British Business Bank, which I'm sure will spend their budgets well. But the government also committed to establishing several new ones, some of which I do not yet think have been fully established. In short, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is quite hard to spend the financial transactions capital Budget and I therefore assume with some confidence that there will be underspends that could be reprioritized. Finally, and if that is not convincing enough, I am convinced that there will be public interest in a more mutual form of ownership of the Royal Mail, and I would hope its reintegration with the Post Office, a public share offering and a special scheme for Royal Mail employees could be a nice way to do this, with the government merely underwriting the risk.

Whilst funds are raised by the public in the years it would take to undertake this action. Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe having looked at this issue for so many years, that this is the only solution to protecting the Royal Mail and its future.

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Meg Hillier even were the suggestion that the hon. Member has suggested to come to fruition, suggested to come to fruition, there's still that would be the ongoing running costs, and we know there's huge competition in the sector. How would he propose that

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sector. How would he propose that would happen? What is he proposing? An ongoing subsidy? Darren Jones. I refer the hon. Lady to my

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I refer the hon. Lady to my previous comments about how the market needs to be better regulated, whether we own the Royal Mail or whether someone else does. And I whether someone else does. And I think that that's why that work should be undertaken. Whilst a debate on ownership maybe continues with government. But I do believe that is the end goal that we all want to see, that our constituents want to see and that the government can enable it has the capacity and the ability to do so. A Royal Mail, back in public hands, reintegrated with the Post Office network.

A tangible example of change in every postcode, an option that I put on the table today, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the government to consider, and I hope that Ministers will come to the same conclusion that I have and get on with doing the right thing.

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Thank you. Tom Morrison thank you. thank.

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thank. The Member for Redditch for bringing this important debate forward. Six months ago, in a forward. Six months ago, in a Westminster Hall debate, I talked about how bad the Royal Mail service in Cheadle constituency have become. I talked about how have become. I talked about how residents had missed medical appointments, bills and other important document because of the important document because of the service's inability to get its primary job done. I also mentioned how contacting Royal Mail with these issues rarely led to a satisfactory response, or even a response at all, so members across the House will be less than surprised to learn that, following the debate, I immediately had an email from Royal Mail saying they

19:27

Tom Morrison MP (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)

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19:34

Sarah Edwards MP (Tamworth, Labour)

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19:40

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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family. Mail is an essential service for some particularly digitally excluded, who rely on it for important correspondence, like for important correspondence, like their NHS appointments. One Thornbury constituent told me only this weekend that he got a hospital appointment letter the day after the appointment. The government itself depends on Royal Mail for sending out passports, driving sending out passports, driving licence and HMRC correspondence.

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Our own offices use Royal Mail. I would. Ribble Valley for giving way and the point she makes about passports and other valuable documents is a good one, because I know that I attended a meeting in the Polden Hills where the post is brilliant, but the post is absolutely rubbish. Every three weeks or longer. But the thing that really shocked me was that actually Royal Mail is advertising for more posts, but you don't need to even provide a CV. And yet these are the people they expect to deliver documents of prime importance and very often personal things like bank cards.

And it seems pretty shocking that they've decided they don't actually need to have somebody CV before

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they employ them. Would she agree? That's really poor practice? Absolutely. I would agree that is poor practice, and I think it's is poor practice, and I think it's a sign of the desperation they find themselves in. With so many people quitting their employment. One quitting their employment. One man's response has not been good enough. They've moved the goalposts, decreased delivery times, and fiddled around with their staff fiddled around with their staff numbers. But none of that has helped. Reports suggest that they are axing the head office numbers and post. These are quitting in droves. Clearly, this is not sustainable.

When I raised my constituents concerns with Royal Mail directly, the right people did not even attend the first meeting and subsequent ones have been little more productive. I'm told the Royal Mail complaints forms have been removed from the building they share with the post office. That's not the behaviour of a business that cares about its customers. Which brings me to the regulator. I want to use this debate to call again for Ofcom to properly, properly regulate the Royal Mail or be replaced. In correspondence, Ministers have confirmed to me that currently Ofcom cannot investigate local failures.

As a result, when Royal Mail does not deliver and their complaints team cannot provide an adequate resolution, my constituents have no one else to turn to for me. In essence, the public look to members of this House to be the regulators. But we do not have the powers of a regulator. Too often our complaints are met with dismissive template letters asserting that the service is improving when it blatantly isn't. Where is Ofcom? What does a fine here and there really do to a failing business? I wrote to the previous Minister a few months ago after I raised these issues in the chamber.

I asked what he had done to review Ofcom's powers and why Ofcom cannot properly regulate at a local level. Disappointingly, he answered that Royal Mail is a private business and Ofcom is an independent regulator, so there is nothing really that the government can do. I'm not sure that's quite how regulation works. This is simply not good enough. In answer to my written questions, the government stated that they have not assessed moving responsibility for postal regulation away from Ofcom to a new regulator. I ask why? Surely even Ministers agree that Royal Mail have been failing to deliver for years now, and Ofcom hasn't changed that.

Either. Ofcom need more powers to investigate locally and tackle the issue. Or should remove their power altogether and give the responsibility of postal regulator to a whole new independent body that will focus on these issues properly. Why is Ofcom not performing their duties with vigour? Yes.

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Thank you for giving way. She's laid out a couple of options on the table. What does she make of the assessment that no regulator will solve this problem, and that the service has to be brought back into public control? Is that something

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public control? Is that something she'd consider? Yes. I don't think that we can say that regulation has failed at this point, when what we've been doing is effectively using the same is effectively using the same battering ram again and again and again. And they say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same, the same thing again and again and wondering why you're getting the same result. So I think there are other things that we can explore. First, last week during PMQs, the Prime Minister stated that if Royal Mail do not improve, further measures will be taken.

Can the Minister now reveal what those measures are and assure the House that this company will face serious consequences for failing all our constituents?

19:44

Maureen Burke MP (Glasgow North East, Labour)

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Maureen Burke thank you, Madam >> Maureen Burke thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Royal Mail was once widely respected and trusted, but is now too often a cause of frustration and anger for our constituents. Year after year, Royal Mail is falling short of the targets it must meet by law, and the public's patience is wearing thin. The danger is that at some point, the business can no longer survive. And whilst I have no desire to see that happen, we cannot keep making excuses or dismissing what my constituents are going through. They are missing appointments, receiving important news late, or being let down by a system that cannot be relied upon to get the basics right.

Madam Deputy Speaker, just over a year ago, the Scottish Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, held a session with Royal Mail, Ofcom and consumer groups. We were told then that work was under way to improve the service, but on the ground it is hard to see any sign of that this year. Again, in most of Royal Mail Scottish postcode areas, they have missed their targets and constituents are continuing to write to me about the problems they face. A late birthday card can be forgiven, but too often delivery delays affect more important mail. Royal mail assured our committee that a new NHS barcode would allow NHS letters to be picked out and given priority.

Yet NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde have told me that they cannot use the barcode because it does not work, with the Royal Mail system, used for most of their letters. Royal mail presented this as an answer, but it is not working in practice. That has real consequences, consequences for my constituents. Madam Speaker, a disabled constituent, recently told me that they no longer had the strength to complain. They have already been on to the sorting office and seen no improvement. Right now they are waiting on a letter about a home flu jag. Their post is so unreliable that they believe the letter will arrive late.

Another constituent told me how they only realised they had missed an NHS appointment when they spoke with the hospital directly when they visited the sorting office. Their letters were waiting there still to be delivered, including one telling them about that

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appointment. My hon. Friend for giving way. She's making a very passionate contribution about the experience contribution about the experience of her constituents and the real life impact Royal Mail's failures are having. Does she agree with me are having. Does she agree with me that this is yet another prime example of why it's important to example of why it's important to properly regulate a public service? And contrary to what some members in this House may think, it is not bureaucracy, it's not red tape. It's about how you secure the proper functioning of a public service.

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Maureen Burke. I agree with my hon. Member. Thank you for your contribution. Thank you for your contribution. There there are just two dreadful examples that show the heart of the problem. People are losing faith in the Royal Mail because when they need the service most, it is need the service most, it is letting them down. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know the postal world has changed. We keep in touch has changed. We keep in touch differently now, sending fewer letters and more emails around the world. Postal services are changing, but I do not believe we want to end up in a situation like Denmark, where Postnord has stopped delivering letters altogether.

I believe the public want Royal Mail to have a future, but for that to be possible, management must take responsibility rather than just blame changes in how people use the service or put the blame on posties. People are being priced out and Royal Mail is adding to their anger by putting up stamp prices. How? How can we expect people to use a service when. Research from Citizens Advice suggests that 1 in 3 adults would struggle to afford a book of first class stamps? Madam Deputy Speaker, equally, it will not be possible for the Royal Mail to meet standards.

Fewer staff who feel undervalued as the Communication Workers Union has said. When the previous board brought in lower wages, longer hours, poorer conditions for new staff, they made Royal Mail a less attractive place to work, with up to half of the new staff leaving within the first year. Royal Mail's owners must show that they understand what went wrong and risk bringing the service closer to collapse. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to sum up by saying this I wish Royal Mail well, and I pay tribute to Britain's hard working posties. Royal mail is an institution and for many of my constituents, a lifeline.

That is why I hope that the promise from management to meet targets by early next year is signed for and delivered on time.

19:50

Alicia Kearns MP (Rutland and Stamford, Conservative)

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Al Carns Madam Deputy Speaker. service for our communities across Rutland, Stamford and the South Sydney Harbour villages. The consequences of poor service can be consequences of poor service can be significant and also unfair on the Posties, who face the brunt of those frustrations. In Corby, some residents were left without post for 20 days in January, with many only receiving their post because they took the initiative to complain. One resident wrote her complaint on the 26th of January, and the next day a mammoth bundle of mail coincidentally arrived at her house with some letters dating from the 2nd of January, 24 days late in Royal.

The village regularly goes up post for weeks at a time. It's not an inconvenience. It is the norm in Stamford, first class post takes a minimum of four days to arrive. Despite Royal Mail aiming to deliver the next working day, South Lopham is no different. The Royal Mail van comes once a week or twice if they're lucky. And indeed, I wrote to the residents of Cottesmore on the 12th of October and many received their letters only yesterday. One village resident has missed numerous medical appointments because the letters arrived too late from the hospital, or she travels the 40 minutes to our local hospital to find out the appointment has been cancelled.

This is unacceptable. We're not asking for special treatment, but the last 18 months since 2025 sale, something has happened that has broken Royal Mail and residents have consistently been told they can only complain after seven days. A whole week of non-delivery. Again, the significant delays residents face every week are perfectly demonstrated by the fact that when I post a correspondence first class from my constituency office in Oakham, it took two weeks for letters to arrive. Where in Oakham streets that were just one street away. I want to be clear. Like all members in this chamber, this is not an attack on our postal workers.

Many work incredibly hard under considerable pressure in all weathers, and we recognise the contribution that they make and we are grateful. I'd like to turn briefly for a moment to a company called enough, a company that uses Royal Mail service to deliver its Self-swab rape kits. Despite having been publicly outed by me in this chamber for sending slapps to sexual assault survivors, rape charities, and anyone who dares to speak out and question their motives or their claims on their kits. I have raised enough use of Royal Mail services with Royal Mail because I believe that Royal Mail their use of Royal Mail is not compliant with the Royal Mail's own guidance on the transportation of human specimens.

First, a kit has to be sent by qualified medical practitioner or requested by them. This is not the case. Secondly, the packaging and the labelling on the packaging required is not currently in place. And thirdly, the packaging that was required to use is itself also not being met. Royal mail is not taking the concerns. I have raised them seriously and the Minister knows very well the issues with enough, and has promised to look at how we regulate to deal with the fact this company should not be in operation. So it is important that Royal Mail comes back to me and the Minister also raises this with Roman as well.

Rural communities cannot become an afterthought in the provision of essential services. Distance and rural geography, yes, represent operational challenges, but they are not a permanent excuse for poor service. And I'm sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you've had the same issues and you're very rural constituency. Therefore, I urge the government to take our concerns seriously and press Royal Mail for a clear and measurable improvement plan and improved powers to regulators. That plan must include transparent, local performance information that even I can't get my hands on. An assessment of staffing and delivery arrangements, better communication with affected residents, and a straightforward process for reporting and resolving complaints.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we are all very grateful for what they do, but accountability means more than just acknowledging a problem. It means taking action and demonstrating results. The Universal Postal Service is an essential part of our national infrastructure, but its value is measured not by the number of letters delivered nationally, but whether our communities can depend on it when they need it. And for too many, they cannot. Thank you.

19:54

Dan Aldridge MP (Weston-super-Mare, Labour)

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Which. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I refer members to my Register of Interests in relation Register of Interests in relation to the Communication Workers Union. Madam Deputy Speaker, the anger about Royal Mail's failure to deliver a reliable service for our constituents is palpable across this House and across our communities. My constituents in Weston-super-Mare, Foyle and the villages are not just inconvenienced by these failures, but are suffering genuine harm by not getting vital information where needed. From the outset, and as mentioned by many of my colleagues across this House, I want to be very clear that my concerns are not with postal workers and those that are keeping our postal depots going.

Posties are facing incredibly demanding working conditions, but also hostility directed to them by some members of the public. The abuse and targeting of our posties is utterly unacceptable and must stop. My local posties tell me that physical and verbal abuse continues to increase no matter. No wonder so many of them are leaving the job. As the CWU identified earlier this month, 400 Posties are leaving every week. Our post and Royal Mail workers deserve proper support, staffing levels and working conditions to deliver the service people expect. Royal mail is far more than a parcel delivery service, and it must not be stripped any further of its community value and its unique place in our national story.

Physical post is still a lifeline to many thousands in my constituency who do not or cannot manage essential services online. Many invitations to my own surgeries are being delivered to residents so late that the events have passed, even though we posted them at least a month in advance, such as the reputation of Royal Mail. Much of the casework I receive relates to older and disabled people being left in intolerable disadvantage by a service they should be able to trust. We must answer the question why are we allowing a service so fundamental to our communities and our public life to deteriorate, to deteriorate while customers are left paying the price?

I cannot help feeling that Royal Mail's owners know the cost of everything, but ignore the value of what they

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put at such risk. Absolutely. I thank you very much for giving way. Early today, a constituent of mine contacted my office to say mine contacted my office to say that they had received 22 items in a single delivery, only one of a single delivery, only one of which was first class. But I wonder whether he knows that most items, including public Guardian letters including public Guardian letters and NHS letters, come via whistle and UK mail, which means that they and UK mail, which means that they don't actually get included in the universal service data that we often hear about.

And so I wonder whether he agrees with me that we need to look at updating the way that we measure the collection of posts, because actually, Royal Mail

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is more than a lot of people realise. Yeah, absolutely, I agree. And

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Yeah, absolutely, I agree. And the splintering of public service in this way is something that we really need to take account of in really need to take account of in this House. And I mean, it's a sad statement that we that can be applied to the state of too much of our public commonwealth that has our public commonwealth that has been carved up and sold off to private interests. And like the hon. Member for Tamworth mentioned earlier, I wanted to remind the House and the government of the recommendations made by our business, innovation, Science and Trade Committee specifically that the Government and Ofcom must act decisively if Royal Mail fails to make meaningful improvements within the six month deadline we set.

The current evidence gives serious cause for concern. I worry that carefully crafted and presented statistics, as well as polished corporate jargon, make it easy to present a story to decision makers, which bears little relation to the lived experience of workers and customers. I am frustrated that our regulatory system hasn't evolved to deal with the level of corporate gaslighting that seems to run roughshod over worker and customer interests. This is about what we value as a society, what we trust, and the basic functioning of the state. With Christmas just around the corner, families and businesses need reassurance that their post will arrive when it matters.

But longer term, Royal Mail must stop making excuses to do right by their workers and deliver the service our constituents and their customers deserve.

19:58

Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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In room. >> In room. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Ilfracombe Leigh and Combe Martin on the North Devon coast continue to stand out as areas where residents are suffering repeated problems with postal deliveries and I want to highlight the reality on the ground, a constituent wrote to me on the 17th of September to say that after weeks without a Royal Mail deliverer, she had driven several miles to the sorting office to collect her own post herself. She collected no fewer than 16 undelivered letters, including notifications of NHS appointment. As we've heard from many members here tonight, that letter was already a full week behind not just the date of the letter, but the actual appointment.

The oldest letter in the bundle was from 14th of August, nearly a full month out of date. I have visited that post office myself, the sorting office and the staff I met. There were hard working and dedicated and I really struggle to believe that repeated Royal Mail service issues like this are their fault. When similar issues are being reported right across the country, and so are many members stipulated that in this House tonight, local residents in Ilfracombe found it especially frustrating to see that mail posted to engage people in the town's successful nomination for the UK Town of Culture 2028 did not reach residents in time.

There is a pattern of post going undelivered due to short staffing, parcels being given priority and bundles of overdue letters turning up at a later date. Missing post can have terrible knock on effects where people are missing GP appointments or cannot act on important legal or financial letters. A reliable service is important for farms and rural, remote rural communities, which often suffer poor internet access and where people cannot visit their local high street easily. Along the North Devon coast, the postal network is heavily dependent on vehicles and relies on returning postage with strong local

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knowledge. I will. Thank the hon. Friend for giving way. So from coast of Devon to way. So from coast of Devon to rural Warwickshire, we have the same issues and my constituents are not receiving letters on time. They are missing NHS appointments, really important appointments, documents are getting lost, fines to pay are arriving too late and we know that our postal workers are doing their best. They are working very hard in very difficult conditions. So we agree that both Ofcom and Royal Mail need a radical overhaul, and.

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I thank the hon. Lady for eloquently saying what's happening in our constituency, and I think Ofcom do need a bit more teeth, really, to engage with the royal, really, to engage with the royal, with the Royal Mail and hold them strongly to account. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I've met with Deputy Speaker, I've met with representatives of Royal Mail who insist these problems are being ironed out, but it is clear that in ironed out, but it is clear that in areas like mine, the Postal Service is falling well short of their obligation to deliver post on time.

So I hope the Minister can tell us, does the government believe Ofcom have the enforcement powers it needs to push Royal Mail on their quality of service? Does the Minister have a picture of whether certain areas or postcodes are particularly badly affected, and what assurances can she give us that Royal Mail are being held to account over staffing levels? Because I'm being told by sources that staffing is a big issue. And what remedy do service users have when Royal Mail persistently fails to deliver the service that customers have paid for and residents deserve? Thank you.

20:02

Chris Curtis MP (Milton Keynes North, Labour)

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Chris Curtis thank you, Madam Speaker. And like many others, I'd Speaker. And like many others, I'd like to start by paying tribute to our fantastic Posties, particularly the one who delivers my mail up to Richmond House, constantly reminding me through letters from constituents just how dreadful the service they are now experiencing from Royal Mail has become. Now, I won't spend too long listing off the very many examples of atrocious services that Royal Mail have been delivering in my constituency. But just one example, a letter dated on the 7th of July. It arrived on the 4th of August, five days after the recipient was supposed to have had an operation, and that operation was supposed to have taken place.

And just in case that wasn't bad enough, they also messed up on follow up letters from the NHS about their cancer checks. We've heard how Royal Mail is planning on getting this service fixed by Christmas. I'd like to say which Christmas, because in August 1st of my constituents managed to receive a very, very late Christmas card. So I'm not even sure we've got last Christmas fixed, let alone thinking about Christmas coming forward. Now, nobody's going to argue that this is acceptable, but like many fellow members in this chamber, what I find particularly frustrating is that every couple of months or so, I go to the delivery office and we have that conversation where they tell me that, yes, they've been facing challenges, but don't worry, they're on track now.

And then you go back two months later and just like Groundhog Day, you have exactly the same conversation. Yes, there were there were times there were problems when we last told you that we'd fixed them. But don't worry, they're being fixed now. And we've heard all of the stats about how the Royal Mail is completely failing to, to, to get these to meet the targets that they've set. Even those, those targets have been lowered. And we've also heard about how prices have been rising at the same time. And I don't think in this I don't think there is any.

I think people appreciate the challenges that Royal Mail are facing. With a dramatic drop in letter numbers from the 20 million that we saw years ago down to just 6.5 20 billion years ago to the 6.5 billion today. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the idea that every time Royal Mail fails to meet the standards required of it, our response should be to lower their standards until they become achievable. When investors bought shares in Royal Mail, they knew they were buying into this business, and they knew there were certain regulatory obligations attached.

There were part of the deal. And while circumstances change and regulations sometimes need to catch up with them, we cannot have a system where shareholders get to enjoy the potential rewards of private ownership. While the public is expected to accept an ever diminishing service. Now, I think we start by acknowledging, even if it is a difficult problem to solve. It starts by acknowledging that the decision by the Tory Lib Dem coalition to privatise Royal Mail was a mistake. The argument for privatisation is normally that the discipline of the market will drive improvements in efficiency and service.

If a company does a bad job, customers can go somewhere else and the threat of losing those customers gives that business incentive to improve. But as should have been obvious at the time, that mechanism doesn't work with Royal Mail. If my constituent doesn't receive their hospital appointment letter, they can't just decide to have it delivered by somebody else. They don't get to choose which postal network the NHS uses to reach them. So we've lost that accountability that comes with public ownership, without getting the competitive pressure that's supposed to make private ownership work. And I think there's a much bigger problem here with the way we privatise many of these, regulated, the way we regulate many of these privatised monopoly.

Now, just building slightly in the short amount of time I have left on the argument made by my colleague from Bristol North East on, on, on the options for nationalisation, which is certainly something renationalisation, which is certainly something that I believe that we should look at. But this challenge goes way beyond Royal Mail. We've got a problem right across our economy now with these unaccountable, unaccountable, regulated monopolies that simply don't work. You speak to Ofcom. I might be the only person here who has some sympathy with Ofcom's position. They will talk to you about the fact that Royal Mail, like so many of these other regulated monopolies, the water companies being another example, are in financial distress.

And you can't you can't use fines as a way to stop them being in financial distress, but you still need to produce an incentive for them to have better behaviour. So I'd urge the government to look at more innovative ways than just using the fines and the regulatory model to incentivise better behaviour in

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these companies. For example, they should be looking at using. Order, order Kirsty Blackman.

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Order, order Kirsty Blackman. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker. Thank you to the members for Lichfield and Redditch for bringing this, and particularly for bringing this, and particularly to the incredibly thoughtful speech from the member from Bristol North West. I am not going to get political about this, but it has political about this, but it has been our position for ages that we should Renationalise Royal Mail

20:07

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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should Renationalise Royal Mail Madam Deputy Speaker, when I read about the fact that Royal Mail is going to be only delivering second class mail every second weekday, I misread it. I misread it as Royal Mail are going to be delivering second class mail every second weekend. And I thought, oh, thank goodness my constituents are going to get a better service than the one they currently have, because every second weekend would be significantly better than they're currently getting. I have been to the delivery offices in my constituency. There's there's Bridgerton, there's Maastricht, there's Kitty Brewster, and actually, I think there's a benefit in living in Scotland in this, because the central commerce people don't come to these meetings.

So I get the honesty from the POSTRS. I'm wondering what happens, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I send a letter to when I send an email, not a letter. No point in sending a letter when I send an email to Royal Mail and I say to them, Mrs. Goggins is having an issue with her mail delivery. She lives in Bridgeton. Here's her address. Do Royal Mail Central actually contact the delivery office and say Mrs. Goggins is having a problem? Could you please reply to me and let us know what's happening? Or do Royal Mail just send me an email back saying everything's fine.

It's all great, don't worry, without actually speaking to the delivery office, because the Member for Lichfield talked about not having all the answers. Well, I'll tell you who's got most of the answers. The posties the Posties know what changes need made. I went to one of my delivery offices and they were talking about the design of the cages. They were talking about the design of the routes. They had asked Royal Mail if they could change some of the routes, if they could change some of the cages. Royal mail took months to get back to them about that.

They weren't allowed to change the design of the cages that were dangerous and things were falling off them without the say so of Royal Mail. It's an incredibly top down organisation. The posties know how to fix it, the posties know how to improve their routes. They are making these cases to Royal Mail Central, who come back and say, look, I know that street, I know that street is off this street, but we're going to keep it on that other route. You know, just because we're in charge and it may be looks quite good on the Google Maps.

You know, I don't understand how they're not listening to the Posties who know exactly what they're doing, who know how to improve the routes. The issue that we've got is that Royal Mail, as one of the members from this side, said, trying to asset strip this organisation, it feels like they're not trying to improve the service. They don't care about improving the service. They just care about improving the profit. Madam Deputy Speaker, we've been fighting on behalf of the constituents, but we've also been fighting on behalf of the Posties who are not being listened to and feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall when it comes to this.

And it's not just NHS letters, although I had one constituent who was in touch saying that they hadn't received any mail between the 23rd of September and the 14th of October, they got nine letters. Seven of them were NHS letters, and they'd been put to the bottom of a waiting list because they missed their appointment. Madam Deputy Speaker, I can tell which letters are NHS letters when they come through my door or when I, you know, visit the sorting office and I see them at the at the delivery office. I know which they are, the posties know which they are, but they're not allowed to take them out and ensure they're being put, being put to the top of the priority list.

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The hon. Lady for giving way, because this issue about NHS letters has come up a lot, and I think we're letting Royal Mail off think we're letting Royal Mail off the hook. If we say it's OK if they prioritise NHS letters, that's a workaround to a failed service and there are many other letters that are important and for various reasons won't be branded. So benefits letters, for example, often are very anonymous because often are very anonymous because people don't want to be known, or sometimes even health letters can be private. So I don't know if

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be private. So I don't know if that. I do think that the workaround that there is on barcodes, for example, only works in some areas, and some of the health boards can't use that workaround. It is absolutely a workaround. It does not ensure that we've got that universal service obligation, that that public service that is relied upon is actually working. And I don't know about the offices of other MPs, but my office quite often requires to get wet signatures from people, you know, organisations like Ukvi or organisations like our local council will require us to get someone to sign a form.

The number of times we have posted that form to people and they've not got it. What are we supposed to do if people do not have a printer at home, which a lot of people don't? Understandably, if they don't have a printer at home and we're posting it to somebody, particularly in the bridge of Don in Aberdeen, they are not going to get that letter. How can they get a democratic service? How can they get us to raise a complaint with the City Council on their behalf if they're not ever getting the letter? We're a number of people this year during the many to many by elections we have had this year.

Madam Deputy Speaker in Aberdeen, a number of people telling us that they didn't get their postal votes. They did not arrive. And in a council by election, it's hard enough to get people to, you know, actually vote when they don't get their postal vote, they just say, I won't bother. And actually, that's people missing out on the democratic process because of the failure of Royal Mail. They can't even prioritise those letters. You know, I don't understand how we can stand here and how Royal Mail can repeatedly say to each one of us, everything is fine, or we're working on improvements when this is an absolute disaster, this is a lifeline.

This is a really important public service and we need Royal Mail to step up. We need Ofcom to step up, but we need the government to put on as much pressure as possible to ensure they do.

20:12

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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De Meg Hillier. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, I could list all of the issues that my constituents have raised with me about this issue, but we'd be here all night. And so I concur with a lot of others. I will give some examples, but we've got really when I met with Royal Mail and they said to me, well, don't worry, we've got a shortage of postings. So I'm working to do what I can to encourage young people to join the Postal Service. But clearly I'm not going to solve that on, on my own.

They said, don't worry, in one week you get a Monday, Wednesday, Friday delivery. The next week it's a Tuesday and a Thursday delivery as though that's somehow OK. And that's in theory. But for example, the constituent applied for a 60 plus oyster card that took so long to arrive, they had to buy a monthly pass costing over £200. While they were waiting, one constituent received divorce papers weeks late, and five constituents reported not receiving their postal vote for a recent by election. And this is exactly as other colleagues have said. People are just not bothering because the postal vote is so efficient and as a panic as a canvasser, when someone says, have you voted?

Are you asking someone if they voted and they haven't posted it yet? And you know, there's a week to go and you're really worried about them putting it in the post. So you start explaining to them about how to go to the polling station to deliver it. And you can see immediately that they lose interest, even if even if they were going to be around on, on the election day. And one constituent nearly lost her home because of delays with their pension administrator sending information backwards and forward. And that wasn't received. So they had many delays to getting their pension in place.

And just to give a couple of examples, and Hackney Wick post was delivered on the 23rd of June, the 27th of June, the 1st of July, the 9th of July, and then nothing until mid-August. In Dalston in my constituency. One resident did not receive any post for three months and another road had no post for eight days. I mean, I could go on about those examples,

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but I'll certainly give way. I've done my friend for giving way as a London MP. She is way as a London MP. She is describing the experience of my constituents as well. What I find is that when I go to Royal Mail to is that when I go to Royal Mail to try to interrogate their poor performance, because they are only required to give performance data required to give performance data on the basis of the first part of the postcode. Poor performance in SW 24 is disguised by averaged SW 24 is disguised by averaged figures for the SW postcode area, which.

You agree with me that it would be a step forward in Royal Mail's accountability if they had to report performance on the delivery office area, rather than

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the whole district postcode area. I thank my hon. Friend that she saves me having to repeat exactly saves me having to repeat exactly the same point that it is very difficult when I. We can all name roads in our constituencies that are not getting it, but overall the area apparently is being delivered and one of the ways we can all get our posts. Guess what? If you've our posts. Guess what? If you've got a parcel delivered, then your post is going to be delivered the same day. So it actually would be more cost effective for some of us to buy some, get some more parcels, small, cheap things delivered, and then suddenly that would happen if we did it through Royal Mail.

But there is a bigger issue here about the competitiveness of Royal Mail. Since the new ownership, they have clearly been chasing the parcel delivery competitive market. And we understand that there was always going to be a challenge about how that would interact with Royal Mail, but they seem to have completely junked the postal the letter service. Yet there are other providers some have been named that will parcel up. You can even email them your content. They can mail, merge it, put it in an envelope. And of course, in the end, the Royal Mail delivers the last part of it.

But you can do that even a discounted postal rate. So that Royal Mail, which has the universal service obligation, has that responsibility for delivering those letters for that last stage of the journey are themselves not even thinking ahead of the curve about how they could compete with the companies that are undercutting them. And I think it seems to me utterly ridiculous that that is the case. And if you think about the Royal Mail, I'll just turn to the postal staff, because I have a number of constituents who are reluctant to raise with me their concerns.

They don't want they want to raise them with me, but they don't want to make a complaint because they like their postie and who doesn't trust their postal worker. It's one of the most trusted professions. If you're David Beckham, if you're a member of the royal family, perhaps they don't get their mail directly delivered to their door. But but but, you know, you can be a top celebrity. You. We all trust our postal workers to to deliver our post. I don't think it's not a moment of doubt that I have in my mind about their trustworthiness, and I think that is a real concern, too, that this is a group of people who have taken huge pride in their jobs.

And and as I've heard, we heard from the hon. Lady for Aberdeen, Aberdeen, North, very often it is those postal workers who can tell me what the solutions are. And over the years I've interacted with Royal Mail from my time as well, mostly from London for 25 years or so now. Often the solution is just described locally, but not delivered by the Central office. But this new ownership is degrading our letter service and we are going down the pathway of the Danish service if we're not careful and we cannot lose this service. So there is a big challenge for the Minister.

I don't think it's easy. It's easy to talk about nationalisation. This costs money. And actually it it may be it could be that they want to run themselves down so much that the government does step in. I think we shouldn't be letting the Royal Mail off the hook. We need solutions and we need them now.

20:17

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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John Milne thank. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. The Royal Mail is a British heritage icon. Bright red post boxes crop up in millions of photographs taken by tourists every year. However, what residents described to me is very far short of a postcard picture. And tonight it's starting to feel like some kind of mass therapy session where we all share our stories. I thought it was just me, but no, it's absolutely everyone I, I respect. Like others, the incredible hard work of posters and Royal Mail workers in my patch. I have visited the delivery centre in Horsham and I've seen them at work.

It's a hive of activity. No one is standing still, but despite their energy, like many hon. Members, I have received messages from Royal Mail workers themselves who are distraught that the service they offer is now being undermined by factors beyond their control, Royal Mail wrote to me this month confirming that deliveries in Horsham had been affected by sickness, absence and resourcing, and that some letter deliveries have been rotated and that it is recruiting for nine vacant posts. They also tell me that mail is being taken out six days a week, regular as clockwork. Unfortunately, that simply does not fit the lived experience of residents they describe post arriving late all at once and not at all.

Yet as recently as August, I understood that the officer's own statistics showed deliveries running satisfactorily and staffing was adequate. My constituents are living somewhere in the space between these two very contradictory pictures. One constituent has written to me about going without post, sometimes for more than a month. Her son is medically vulnerable. She has missed appointments like so many others I've heard tonight, and she asks a fair question why can parcels be prioritised almost instantly yet not letters? Meanwhile, round about talking news posts out to its users every Friday morning in bags marked for the blind, a volunteer told me that she has to visit the sorting office roughly once a month simply to sort out the problems with delivery.

Royal mail tells me it has introduced an NHS specific barcode at no extra charge to protect NHS letters in times of disruption, but it cannot tell me how many NHS bodies in Horsham use it because each buys its postal services separately. A safeguard that nobody can measure is not a solution and simply waste valuable clinician time. What we have is a service designed for a pre-internet, pre pre email world and it must adapt, but it must have support in doing so. Royal Mail's own unions point out that unlike other European countries, the UK does not subsidise the universal service.

The regulator Ofcom now proposes to hold second class. Hold the second class mail price cap for a further year. So I'll ask the Minister an honest question. Does she think it is possible to run a universal service without any kind of government support? In my previous career I worked in advertising in Ireland and the Irish Post Office on post was one of my big clients. It was playing then 20 years ago, where we are heading, where we are headed and where we have arrived today. That there is a fundamental challenge to the business model and we have not yet solved it.

I thought the the words of the Member for Bristol North West earlier were very interesting on the various options that have been considered, and this is the level of conversation we need to get to because it is not working the way we're going now. It does feel like that what we're seeing is managed decline and not very well managed at that. This is serving no one, not the residents, not the posties either. We say we care enough to help this service or we finally admit that we do not.

Thank you.

20:21

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Patricia Ferguson thank. thank my friend the hon. Member for Redditch for securing this debate this evening, and I should say that I want to reference a few things that have come up in relation to work that was done on the Scottish Affairs Committee, as well as briefly talking about the situation in my own constituency. So in June last year, our committee looked at the work of Royal Mail and the importance of the Universal Postal Service to remote rural and island communities, particularly. And we heard from Consumer Scotland, the Federation of Small Businesses, Ofcom and Royal Mail itself.

The committee heard how delays in the Postal Service can have particularly serious knock on consequences for people in those communities. An appointment letter arriving late can leave someone without enough time to arrange transport to hospital. Often that's inter-island travel to hospital and can cause them to miss their appointment altogether. And in an age where public services are increasingly accessed online, the Postal Service nonetheless remains essential for many Scots because often our broadband connectivity and our digital skills can sometimes be limited to. And we also heard how much people value their local postal, particularly where older residents in remote places have little other daily

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contact. Certainly happy to. I'm grateful. And she has just described a village in my constituency called Kentisbeare. Royal mail threatened to sack or rather move the postie to sack or rather move the postie to a different walk, and the village sort of petitioned to village sort of petitioned to maintain the post on the same walk. Does she recognise that these posts Does she recognise that these posts workers do fantastic work and are crucial in communities for

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maintaining people's wellbeing? I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, and I think he's absolutely right about that. And as absolutely right about that. And as we've heard already, we really need to listen to the people who are doing the job on the front line if we are going to make improvements going forward, and for Scotland's rural and less well connected communities, the universal service communities, the universal service promise of one price to every address is especially important as many other couriers impose varying levels of delivery surcharge, which is often extremely high in these communities.

And the latest published UK figures for the first quarter of this financial year show that 85% of first class mail arrived the next working day against a target of 90%, and for second class mail, 91% arrived within three working days, against a target of 95%, but the figures for Scotland show why these UK wide averages cannot be the only measure, because in the same quarter, just 54% of stamped and metered first class mail reached the Outer Hebrides the next working day, and the figure for Lerwick in Shetland was only 25%, so we cannot rely on these averages as a measure.

Of course, there are real challenges in reaching the islands, including weather and transport connections, but the postcode area is covering. These islands also remain exempt from the additional local first class performance targets applied elsewhere, and I would welcome an assurance from the Minister that the government's work with Royal Mail will include regular reporting on whether Scotland's rural and remote areas are benefiting, and that should cover second class deliveries as well as first class post. And there is also a practical issue in which I would welcome an update. As we have heard, Royal Mail told us about its NHS barcode intended to help prioritise health letters.

Excuse me. It subsequently confirmed to us that uptake depended on individual NHS boards. Excuse me, deputy presiding officer and expects NHS boards to obtain new envelopes with those barcodes on. So I would like to know how widely that's being used across Scotland. And is it actually helping patients receive their letters in time? Because my experience and that of my colleagues would suggest that it isn't. Now, as I say, our committee's inquiry was based on rural and remote communities, but the issues are remarkably similar in my own very urban constituency of Glasgow West. And we've heard about those problems today.

We've heard the problems of people not receiving birthday cards or important appointment letters from the NHS, and I frequently hear from constituents about long periods ten days, 14 days, sometimes a month, where they receive no mail and perhaps only know about a hospital appointment because the hospital either called to confirm it. But of course, they subsequently found out they had missed an appointment. Now, having visited a sorting office nearby over the summer, I was struck by the physical restrictions of many sorting offices. These offices were often built for a letter service, but they're now struggling to deal with the physical size of parcels.

And one post he told me that he'd been expected to deliver car tyres that had been ordered online. Now that suggests to me that there are serious questions in these sorting offices about the health and safety of our posties, and about the conditions they are being expected to work in. So Royal Mail must consider both the situation of its staff and its customers. And I support the Motion's call for the government to work with Royal Mail to improve performance and to ensure a reliable service for all of Scotland's communities, and I would hope that the government would be very creative when considering the way forward, and would not rule out looking at issues such as those raised by the Member for Bristol North West, because they are at least worth examining.

20:27

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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Ian Lavery Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd. >> Like to refer. >> My declaration to my. >> Declaration of interests of support from the trade unions. Madam Deputy Speaker, we've come to something with the Royal Mail when the surest way of getting a letter delivered on time is by putting it inside a parcel, and that's the sorry situation we're actually facing at this moment in time. What a way to beyond with this fantastic national British institution. For years now, residents across my constituency in Blyth and Ashington have been conducting a surveys have been discussing things with the staff at the sorting offices, working closely with the C, W, U and the the workforce.

And it's absolutely clear that the situation facing the Royal Mail undoubtedly is a deliberate, deliberate ploy. Now to end the. The US and probably if things aren't halted and the private company isn't reined in, we'll see the end of the Royal Mail. I want to like every. Well, like most of the speakers, I want to pay tribute to the staff, to the Posties who've done a fantastic job. They didn't. Didn't the post carry with through Covid? These are fantastic public sector workers who at one time were so proud of being posties. That's not there anymore.

It's being bashed out of them. I recognise as time constraints tonight, and I just want to mention some of the issues facing my constituents, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's horrendous. It's chaos. We've got hospital appointments being missed. We've got medical correspondence being missed and delayed. We've got financial hardship being caused by late bills in official documents not even being received. We've got postal votes for democratic elections not received, and vulnerable residents have been left anxious and frustrated as they wait for important communications. We've got an individual, an elderly man, who received a fine of £600 because of a traffic incident whereby he didn't.

He was accused of not returning the letter despite the fact that he had. And it's not just about receiving correspondence, it's about sending correspondence. I'm going to say something which is pretty cold. My apologies, but it's really important. I had an individual who was taking his his well man's test. He sent a poo sample to the hospital, as you do. Weeks later, weeks later, he got a letter from the doctors saying, sorry, can you do it again? Because your sample lay in the sorting office for far too long, you know, and not. Course, for heaven's sake.

But this is the sort of thing we're facing, you know. So we've got a we have got to to look at that. I can say, Madam Deputy Speaker, face the grimace. And it's right that that, sir, by the way, it's horrendous to think that this is the case. What about these people who are wanting to the waiting anxiously by the the the letterbox waiting on results for cancer, waiting for results, for different types of medical problems. What about the people waiting for their passports? They're going on holidays. This cannot continue. Yeah. I think it's absolutely important to recognise that the discussions tonight are broadly in line with each other.

Apart from the Lib Dems, who said that Ofcom should probably have more powers and wouldn't accept the fact that perhaps, perhaps the renationalisation of Royal Mail would be the answer. But you know, the Postal Service isn't a luxury. It's an essential, critical public service. It should exist to serve the public interest, not simply the interests of the market. And if the private ownership cannot deliver the reliable, universal service that people have every right to expect, then the government must be prepared to act. And I want to. Second option two of the proposal put by my right hon.

Friend the Member for Bristol North West Renationalise, the Royal Mail and see how that develops. The message today, Madam Deputy Speaker, is simple. We've got to stop the excuses, stop the broken promises, fix the service, and if you cannot fix it, give the public the opportunity to run it properly once and again. I'm sure I'm not the only member in here, by the way, who received an email even this morning from the director of, I think, director of communications from Royal Mail telling me how things are going to be better tomorrow. I've met with directors of communications regionally, nationally, next door, the promise the world in typical with Royal Mail that didn't deliver.

You will have met with these people, Madam Deputy Speaker, they've all been genuinely decent people, but they haven't got any grip or understanding on exactly what's happening in the the Royal Mail itself. I believe the hard work, and I believe the people who have been committed to that employment

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think. You know, the Royal Mail.

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You know, the Royal Mail. Established over 400 years ago, we need to make sure that it continues for another 400 years. And perhaps for another 400 years. And perhaps with nationalisation.

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with nationalisation. We've had a few people withdraw. So we've got a few more minutes on the clock. So backbench MPs now

20:34

Sadik Al-Hassan MP (North Somerset, Labour)

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the clock. So backbench MPs now have six minutes and I go to Sadik Al-Hassan. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. >> The performance of Royal Mail is a matter of serious concern across North Somerset. Delivery failures are having real consequences for residents and businesses alike. The problem is long standing. In my constituency in February, following a steady flow of correspondence, I launched a survey asking constituents about their experiences. I have worked constructively with local CWU representatives ever since to understand the pressures Royal Mail faces and to find practical solutions, and I'm grateful for their engagement. Earlier this year, I also hosted a town hall, which made the issue painfully clear because many of my constituents received their invitations by post only after the event had taken place.

Three weeks after I sent them out. That is part of a wider pattern of delays eroding confidence in postal services across North Somerset, with Portishead and Nailsea particularly affected. The results of my survey are stark. 87% of respondents reported experiencing delays, and nearly half had waited between 1 and 2 weeks beyond the expected delivery date to receive a letter. In September, I visited the Portishead delivery office and spoke with our amazing Posties and CW representatives and heard their voices. It is clear that Royal Mail is going through significant change as parcel volumes grow and the nature of the service evolves.

Our posties are being asked to bridge structural problems that are not of their making locally. The service is also struggling with high vacancy levels across Bristol and North Somerset. Staff shortages are preventing Royal Mail from delivering a business as usual service, and I'd be happy to give way. I thank him for giving way and he will appreciate my constituency of Harlow is some way from North Somerset and also appreciate. As a new town we have a very intricate system of numbering houses in our estates, which means having a regular postie who covers that estate on a regular basis is really, really important.

Would you agree? One of the challenges that the Post Office, the Postal Service faces, that if you lose post postage in the way that he's described, you lose that experience of getting around the estate in an effective manner. And actually, that adds to the increased challenges that we face. Yeah. I have to agree with my. Hon. Friend. He is a fantastic advocate for Harlow, as I hear often in the chamber. So the Royal Mail shortage is exposed, the shortcomings of their new delivery model and the two tier pay systems that are affecting retention. And it helps explain, but not excuse, the delays my residents are experiencing.

We need a system that gives staff the time, resources and support to deliver reliably, and that means enough workers, proper support for new starters, enough vans and ours and delivery models that actually work in practice. Although I would like to see tougher penalties when Royal Mail fails to meet its delivery targets, the fines issued by Ofcom have clearly not prompted change. This is not about faulting postal workers who are working amazingly hard. It is about holding the company accountable for a service that the public still relies on so heavily. We cannot accept the current standard of service.

53% of survey respondents in my survey said that the delayed deliveries had caused them to miss appointments or deadlines. As a pharmacist, I'm particularly concerned about health consequences. Late letters increase the risk of missed appointments and put added strain on our NHS. For some people, a late letter is not simply an inconvenience, it is a health risk. Some steps that would make a real difference without placing undue burden on postal workers include notifying businesses when deliveries will not be made and providing for collection in exceptional circumstances. Our posties make up the pillar of our community, working tirelessly in all weathers to deliver a vital service.

I want to be clear that my concern is with the systemic, systemic problems in the postal system and not the amazing, dedicated individuals who deliver it. I will continue working with local CWU representatives. Royal mail must communicate better when deliveries cannot be made, it must consider local collection options and it must keep addressing the operational pressures behind these delays.

20:39

Frank McNally MP (Coatbridge and Bellshill, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Llanelli thank you very. >> Much, Madam Speaker. >> I congratulate my hon. Friend for the work that they have done on this over over many months on on the 11th of September this year, my constituents, Helen and Joe, lost their bank cards in Coatbridge town centre. They promptly cancelled their credit and debit cards, requested new ones and were told that they would receive them within 3 to 5 days. More than three weeks later, they had not received anything, so they went down to the local sorting office, not only to find their for bank cards undelivered, but no less than 22 other pieces of mail.

They collected them and then returned a week later to see if there was anything else. And there were 11 pieces of mail undelivered. When they asked the sorting office for an explanation, they were told that parcels get priority. And in reality, it seems that first class letters which should be delivered. The next day, are not being arriving for up to five days in some second class letters are not being delivered at all. Along with Helen and Joe, I have dozens of constituents who get in touch with me to say that they've missed interviews, failed to receive bank and financial letters, as well as legal documents.

Due to these systemic issues, critical hospital appointments have also been missed, and that has been a real theme of this evening's debate, with some of my constituents who have waited months or years for critical treatment, only to fail to get a letter arriving on time. Now we have 30,000 people in Scotland who are currently waiting over a year for critical NHS treatment. Can you imagine the stress when you discover that you've missed a letter telling you that you have an appointment on a specific day, and and that is something that is really consequential for people in my in my constituency, I have also heard from local businesses who have missed payments or had payments delayed because they have not received documents in the post on time.

All of these issues, Madam Deputy Speaker, have consequences. So it is clear that we cannot go on like this. My constituents deserve better, but so do our postal workers. Yeah, over. Over the last year, I visited both the Royal Mail delivery offices were in Coatbridge, one in Bellshill, and witnessed the excellent efforts of the dedicated staff there. Our posters are pounding the streets day in, day out, in all conditions and the very least that they deserve from those at the top of Royal Mail is that they get their bit right. And I've met with the CW also earlier this year to hear about the issues which their members are facing.

And they are, of course, as we've also mentioned tonight, spoke of the two tier employment facing Royal Mail workers. Now, while Royal Mail has committed to equalising terms and conditions for employees hired post 2022, that full equalisation has been left to the on going review due to claims that Royal Mail have made that they cannot afford it. That is in the context of a company that has made operating profits of £294 million in the past two years. This is important because we know that there is a high staff turnover in the business. Indeed, across the country since 2022, half of new Royal Mail workers have left the organisation within a year, as was outlined by my hon.

Friend from Glasgow North East, and such turmoil within the workplace terms and conditions has serious consequences for staff morale. I met with my hon. Friend, the Minister's predecessor, to raise these issues and I do want to place on record my thanks to him, the hon. Member for Eastwood, for all his work in this area and, of course, the Minister for her attention to these matters. And I know, like me, colleagues have taken concerns directly to the chief executive of Ofcom. And when Dame Melanie Dawes wrote back to me in March, she told me of Ofcom's work and calling on Royal Mail to publish a credible plan to improve quality and restore consumer confidence.

That was, of course, published in April, with Royal Mail promising that they will meet Ofcom's delivery targets by next April. That is far too slow. More so-called plans mean nothing to my constituents, like Helen and Joe, or the many other constituents who have contacted me in recent months about mis mail. If it doesn't produce better outcomes. So it is critical that Royal Mail comes before MPs and engages fully in the summit. But it's also important that Ofcom and the government uses all the powers that it has to make the service better for our constituents. The service is simply not good enough and urgent action is required.

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David Burton-Sampson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for Redditch for my hon. Friend for Redditch for securing this debate and the hon. Friends from Lichfield and Corby and East Northamptonshire and many other members from across this House for the work they have been doing on this matter. And like so many others across this House, my constituents in Southend West and Leigh have been rightfully disappointed in the service

20:44

David Burton-Sampson MP (Southend West and Leigh, Labour)

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disappointed in the service provided by Royal Mail, and I concur with much of what I've heard here tonight. Now, Southend was the original pilot area for the optimised service delivery, sorry, optimised delivery model. So we've experiencing these issues now locally for well over a year. It was deeply concerning that the clear indications that the ODM was not working in Southend did not prevent it from being rolled out nationwide. It's increasingly frustrating for my constituents who feel that they are not getting the service they are paying for. For many people, this poor service has not just been inconvenient but disastrous.

And we've heard many stories here tonight about how it's been replicated across the country like it has locally. For me now, NHS letters aren't the only urgent post not being delivered. One constituent lost a job opportunity when a DBS certificate fell to arrive in time, and another man who was terminally ill experienced an unacceptable delays receiving the paperwork that he had requested to arrange his own funeral. I've heard many of these stories at a public meeting which I held back in April. This gave residents the chance to put their concerns directly to Royal Mail's regional management.

Improvement was promised at this meeting, but guess what? It never came. In July, I held a consultation which received 122 responses in just a couple of days and I'm sorry to say they were overwhelmingly negative feedback. Of the 122, 102 said they were dissatisfied or very dissatisfied with the Postal Service. Only one person considered the current standard of service acceptable. Throughout this time, I've regularly met with the CW, the union who represent postal workers. I heard from them that postal workers in my constituency have been overworked, under immense pressure, and unhappy with the standard of service that they were able to provide.

And I've not got time tonight to talk about it, but they are equally unhappy at the massive variations between the old and the new contract. So I was heartened to hear and a bit of positivity here. After a visit in August after request my fourth visit in August to the depot that Southend sorting office, in partnership with CWU reps, were ready to trial a new system which would rebalance the round loads and help to reinforce that local link between the postie and their area. It is an amendment of the version of M26 that's currently about to be rolled out.

Posties are much more efficient when they know the layout of their their rounds, so to have them on a dedicated round is clearly not rocket science. Now this was trialled in Leigh on Sea in my constituency and I was glad to visit the sorting office again a month later and see the racks empty, but this time with CW Yu assuring me that things had worked well. And in that particular round we're now back in control. As of the 19th of October, this new system has now been rolled out across our whole sorting office area. Now, clearly I will be keeping a watching brief on this, but it is showing real positive signs.

Now. I do hope that Royal Mail look at this local success of this pilot and roll it out across the rest of the country. If it's if it's working, then why

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would they not? I will give way. On that. Does he share. My concern that Royal Mail

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My concern that Royal Mail bosses don't seem to actually want to improve the service? I know so many of my constituents are no longer posting anything because longer posting anything because they don't believe that it's ever going to get there. This lack of service means lots of people are service means lots of people are turning away from the Postal Service completely. If they continue down the route, down the continue down the route, down the route of putting in the DM 26 without the amendments, does he feel that people will give up on

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Royal Mail entirely and we risk losing it? Totally? I thank her for her intervention, and I do share those similar concerns. And we've heard across the House tonight that many people feel that Royal Mail are putting feel that Royal Mail are putting the service into a managed decline. We have to fight against that. This service is vitally needed across service is vitally needed across this country, and we have to do everything we can to make sure that we don't lose it. Royal mail have we don't lose it. Royal mail have let people down for far too long now, and they need to work at speed to get things back on track.

It was also great to see recently, the government's announcement in September about cracking down on bogus self-employment. I know this is a priority for the C, W, U, and rightly so. Delivery companies undercutting Royal Mail's prices by Mislabelling staff as self-employed to avoid statutory obligations. Shifting costs onto the workers so nothing is covered. It's unacceptable not covering sick pay, not employers, National insurance contributions holidays, not even the petrol used to drive to deliveries. We don't want to see Royal Mail dragged down to this level. Our government wants to see everyone enjoy security in their employment.

On that point, I will take an intervention.

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I thank my. Friend for giving way and my hon. Friend from Coatbridge and Bellshill also mentioned this inconsistency. When it comes to the contracts that Royal Mail staff are saying that Royal Mail staff and

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saying that Royal Mail staff and Mike Kane Harlow are very concerned about. Could you touch upon that and what needs to change? Absolutely, and my hon. Friend

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Absolutely, and my hon. Friend from Harlow makes a fantastic point. And the CW, you two are deeply concerned about the differences in contracts, and they are working with Royal Mail towards a contract harmonisation. Royal mail have shown some desire to want to move towards that, but again, like many others, we're concerned about the speed that that's going to happen and if it's going to happen at all. Now look, Royal Mail face challenges on several levels. So through better employment practices and more efficient delivery model and listening, most importantly to their posties, the unions and to residents.

I'm hopeful in Southend that for the first time in a while, there is a possible route to improvement. I just want to lay my thanks to Ministers, past and present, for working with me and other members across the House on this, and for the continued focus on holding Royal Mail to account. Now, I'm going to continue working on this as hard as I can to make sure that my residents are getting the service, which they're paying for. And let's be, quite frankly, the service that is absolutely essential to so many.

Thank you.

20:52

Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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Sureena Brackenridge thank you. >> On behalf of my residents across Wolverhampton North East, I wish to put on record our sheer frustration and and just disappointment about the delayed post, like Terry telling me he received letters six weeks late and 48 hours mail being delivered over a month late. Frustrated that a service that they've relied on for decades is no longer delivering the reliability that they expect. Vital correspondence arriving too late, like NHS appointments and the anxiety caused by delays on information being relied on for finances like bank cards. Residents deserve a postal service that they can rely on.

Now. This is absolutely not the fault of Posties and front line workers who are bearing the brunt, but it's a decisions made by the bosses who need to be held accountable. Recently, I visited Royal Mail delivery office alongside my colleague, the Member for Wolverhampton West. Now we saw some incredibly hard working staff, but we also heard about the growing use of the five day economy service by large organisations including the NHS, banks and utility companies. Now this means that letters are being held and being delivered together in a large batch. That's that's then appearing through letterboxes and landing on residents doorsteps.

But this does not explain the. Every. This does not explain every delay, and. It must not become an excuse for failing to deliver the service that people deserve. Now, residents need honest answers about what is going wrong and what is being done to put it right. Our post sorting staff and front line workers must not be made the scapegoat. They work hard, often under immense pressure to serve our communities. The CW has also raised concerns about bogus self-employment in the wider parcel delivery sector, where some companies can cut costs while workers are losing out on employment protections.

We need a level playing field where companies compete on service and reliability, not by driving down workers rights. So I welcome the government's consultation on employment status reform. But we need robust rules and effective enforcement to ensure that these protections mean something in practice. Royal mail management must also take responsibility, and I will continue to work closely with local CW reps and staff across the delivery and sorting offices to monitor performance, support our workforce and challenge management to deliver deliver improvements. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, our Postal Service matters to every community, and I've heard that across the House.

Tonight, I will ask the Minister a simple question. When residents are let down and frontline workers are under pressure, is this not yet another example of the failures of privatisation, and what will the government do to ensure the public interest comes first?

20:55

Luke Murphy MP (Basingstoke, Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> Luke Murphy Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I'd like to congratulate my hon. Friends for Redditch and friend. Hon. Friend for Lichfield for securing this debate and their valiant campaigning on this area. Since my election, constituents across Basingstoke and the villages that I represent have contacted me with similar stories that we've heard from many hon. Members this evening. Stories where residents, businesses and public services have been affected. One constituent reported no letter deliveries to their road for over two weeks. Items not delivered, including, as many others have said, a hospital appointment letter and a credit card.

Another constituent reported that some Basingstoke postcodes were experiencing gaps of between 11 days and weeks between deliveries. Another constituent informed us they'd only receive two deliveries in a month, with first class items taking up to two weeks to arrive. They also raised concerns about Royal Mail's complaints handling concerns, which we've now raised with Ofcom about local delivery delays and regulatory oversight. As many other members have said this evening, this is not a trivial issue. I received an email from constituent in Oakley, a village that I represent just earlier today. In his words, residents in the village are not receiving their post in a timely manner, not receiving doctor's appointments.

HMRC tax details, documents from the DVLA about road tax, bank and credit card statements. This is, in his words, a total disgrace and I know members across the House from their speeches agree. Indeed, he highlighted the fact that he recently purchased a new car but had to wait over ten days because the document he needed was sat in the sorting office. As many other members have said, and I should make clear, this is not the fault of our post. These locally or across the country who work exceptionally hard to get mail out to residents. They see themselves rightly as an important public service, and they want Royal Mail more than anyone to succeed.

And it is clear that what constituents in Basingstoke are experiencing is not a mere local blip. It's part of a consistent national pattern. Missed targets on first class deliveries, missed targets on second class deliveries, and an estimated 220 million letters delivered late every year, according to Ofcom, who have themselves fined Royal Mail 5.6 million in 2223 for their performance, £10.5 million for 23, 24, 21 million for 24, 25, 25 successive years of failure. And in June it opened a fourth consecutive

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investigation, this time into 2020 526. I will give way. I thank you for talking about the statistics. I think it's really the statistics. I think it's really important to do that. I'm concerned, though, that the statistics, particularly that Royal Mail are providing, are deeply inaccurate. My constituents are saying they're not getting mail for three weeks at a time very regularly. Royal mail a time very regularly. Royal mail have come back to me and said, everything's fine. Don't worry about it. Is he concerned that Ofcom might not even know about the Ofcom might not even know about the full breadth of the issue, particularly as we've heard, members from Aberdeen, from the

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Western Isles, from Devon all raising the same issue. It's clearly everywhere. And. I thank the.

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I thank the. Member for her intervention. Indeed, one of the things I was going to say later is that I would going to say later is that I would like to see the government press, Ofcom and Royal Mail to deliver much more granular data on delivery targets. I think that's really targets. I think that's really important because the national performance, woeful as it is, does not represent the even worse not represent the even worse performance that we're seeing locally. And indeed, Royal Mail have been set lower targets nationally, but they're not even meeting meeting them.

And behind these figures and statistics are the streets and lanes, like those in my constituency, where the post simply doesn't come. Members across this House recognise this. It is a cross-party concern about a service that the whole country depends on, and it's something that the Communication Workers Union has highlighted over and over again persistent delivery failures, a growing recruitment and retention crisis and an unevenly regulated postal market which threatens the future of the universal service that we have heard so many members speak about so passionately tonight. Now, Royal Mail has told all of us, I think, that they recognise the problem and are committed and making promises for change.

But frankly, all of us in this House and my constituents have heard these promises before. The test of any plan will not be what it says on paper. It will be whether hospital letters start to arrive before appointments. And I welcome the clear stance, moving on to the government's response that the government has taken, Ministers have told Royal Mail's leadership leadership that its service has been unacceptable for too long, and the pace of improvement must increase. The public deserve a reliable postal service and a right to expect better, and I welcome the government's commitment to keep holding Royal Mail to account.

So with that in mind, I hope the Minister will continue that pressure. In particular, I hope she will consider whether Ofcom, as it is currently conducting itself, is really up to the job of regulating the Royal Mail. Look closely at how Royal Mail handles complaints. As many members have said this evening, our constituents find the way in which they deal with those complaints totally inadequate to press for greater transparency as on local performance, as we have just discussed, and to look seriously at the recommendations of the Business and Trade Select Committee. May 2026 report on the regulation of Postal Services and the proposals.

As other members have mentioned from the CW, including a level play on a level playing field for the sector, a new regulatory framework and proposals to build on the government's golden share. Royal Mail remains a vital national institution, providing an essential universal service. We all have a stake in ensuring it succeeds, not least my constituents in Basingstoke, who have every

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right to expect better. Speaker. I'd like to start by also

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I'd like to start by also thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch and Lichfield for their steadfast work on this issue. their steadfast work on this issue. Ahead of today's debate, my team and I spoke to Zoe from Hednesford. Not by letter, of course, because Not by letter, of course, because it probably still be on its way by now. Zoe told me that her parents rely on post for important rely on post for important correspondence like, as we've heard from many hon. Members, hospital appointments, particularly for their daughter Emily. And yet they often go for weeks on end with nothing at all.

Emily was diagnosed

21:02

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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with a very long list of long term health conditions. Because of the lack of post, Emily missed extremely important medical extremely important medical appointments on many occasions. As we know, Mr. Pointments are a big drain on the NHS. The NHS resources drain on the NHS. The NHS resources to. From GPS right through to hospitals. There's also been a direct financial consequence for Zoe's parents, who received a parking fine, which was £60 if paid within 14 days. However, because the correspondence was not received in the post, they were unaware of the deadline, so ended up having to pay the full £100.

Zoe's sister Emily has very sadly passed away since her family first got in touch with me, and I'd like to place on record my condolences to Zoe and her whole family. Sadly, stories like theirs are not unusual in Cannock Chase. I've heard from constituents who've missed court information, jury duty and had Christmas cards arriving in January. My constituent Julian, told me that he had to collect his post from the sorting office in Rugeley. After receiving nothing whatsoever in July, and found there were 16 letters waiting there for him. I hear time and time again from my constituents, particularly those in Rugeley and Brereton.

That's WS15 in Royal Mail speak that they are getting a month's worth of letters shoved through their door in one go. So to get emails from Royal Mail public affairs team like the one we had this morning that the hon. Member for Lichfield referred to, telling us that things are going swimmingly in most of the country is, quite frankly, galling. I'd like to invite them to come to Cannock Chase and speak to the people that I represent. If they want to really find out how the will.

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. My constituent Stoke-on-Trent South covers the Stoke-on-Trent South covers the city and the rural and areas, and it seems to me that the villages that I represent have the greatest that I represent have the greatest problem with getting regular deliveries. And it's particularly the elderly constituents there who the elderly constituents there who aren't reliant on email. And so that are really struggling. So it, it, it, it important to me that my constituents, like my villages like team Swynnerton, Oulton and Fulford, it's that they get the support that they need.

And I, I, it's interesting that also in Staffordshire that you're

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experiencing the same, same issues. So I just wanted to put that in the rural community. For these issues. Well,

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For these issues. Well, obviously my constituency is. But that doesn't deal with this debate. No. You and yours, please. Josh Newbury thank you, Madam

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Josh Newbury thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that sorting office doesn't cover your constituency, and it doesn't cover the constituency of my friend, but the constituency of my friend, but the story she tells about the particularly difficult service that that her constituents in rural areas are facing, very much echoed in my constituency as well. I held a coffee morning in Prospect Village on Saturday, quite an isolated rural village, and was hearing exactly the same concerns. So I'm completely with her on that. Constituents of mine, who I will keep anonymous because I don't want to put them in a difficult position, shared with me that some of some of the things that are happening to postal workers locally, I'm told that over time is rarely permitted, meaning that when a post can't finish their round, some of that inevitably has to go back to the post office sorting office to build up and up.

Some workers are now doing what two postal workers would previously have done with track parcels and first class post having to take priority. That inevitably raises questions about what is realistically expected of staff and what happens to the letters that have been left behind. I'm also told that new recruits are being sent out alone, very quickly, moved between unfamiliar rounds and put under pressure to meet targets, sometimes facing managerial meetings when they fall short. That is a considerable ask for someone who is still learning the job. In the past, new posts would spend months learning alongside experienced colleagues before being expected to manage around independently.

I'm also told that many new starters leave within a very short space of time, and the way some staff are spoken to by managers is completely unacceptable, with conversations that should be about helping people improve, instead leaving them feeling belittled and intimidated. I've heard stories of multiple managers waiting for Posties to finish their rounds, only to tell them that they are being too slow even after they faced wind and rain, or got held up by uncontrollable things like roadworks or livestock and country lanes. Knowing your round takes time. Knowing that community spotting when members of the public might need help and taking pride in getting the job done are all part of what made our postal service the envy of the world and worthy of its royal moniker.

What particularly struck me was my constituents description of postal workers as a tight knit group who continue to look out for one another and pull together. That sense of solidarity is clearly still there, but it's being strained to breaking point by the pressure workers described from management and by the uncertainty around their hours and rounds. I'm also told that trade union reps are struggling to keep up with a number of staff seeking their help. Such are the difficulties in many of these sorting offices. Fixing the issues Royal Mail faces is far from straightforward and a lot does need to change.

But that change has to work for the people delivering the post and those waiting for it at home. Given what all of us in this House are hearing, it falls to us to ask whether we are even on the right track. The consensus tonight, I think, is a resounding no. Royal mail should meet with us here in Parliament, explain what's going wrong, and set out what they will do to put it right. Our constituents deserve more than apologies and more hollow promises. They deserve a reliable service, and we need to see meaningful action right now to make that happen.

21:07

Dr Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Doctor Peter Prinsley. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. And now, in the summer of 1914, as Britain was on the brink of war, Mr. Asquith, 62, the Prime Minister, was having an affair with Venetia Stanley, aged 26. Now. They wrote several letters each day to each other. For there were multiple postal deliveries daily. The cost was one D each. Now that's the equivalent of £0.62 today. But of course the cost of a first class letter, as we all know, is £1.80. Now. Asquith. Asquith sensibly destroyed the letters. But his letters to Venetia Stanley were retained. All 300,000 words.

Now the writer Robert Harris wrote the novel precipice. He. He invented her letters and used his originals. Now that was an amazing work of a novelist's imagination. For, as we

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stories. Yeah.

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Now, now, as we've heard from the many passionate contributions. And I'd like particularly to call And I'd like particularly to call out the amazing contribution of the Member for Blyth and Ashington, who's no longer in his seat. We who's no longer in his seat. We have learned that times have certainly changed for this essential service. Now, from Beighton to and from Honington to Rattlesden, villages across my constituents, constituents are missing hospital appointments. As we've heard, bank correspondent and other important communications. Now, what I'd like to ask if does the Minister agree that this is simply unacceptable?

And I would like to agree completely with the Member for Bristol North West, who's also no longer in his seat. The solution to this is to renationalise this service. Thank you.

21:10

Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)

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Well. >> That Josh Fenton-Glynn. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the unenviable task of for the unenviable task of challenge of following my friend the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, when I talk to my Calder Valley constituents, they regularly tell me that Royal Mail is failing them. I know the Minister, who is my constituency neighbour, will have heard the same complaints. It comes up at surgeries. It comes up when we knock on doors and when letters eventually arrive at my constituency office, it comes up in them to. In a world where we expect things to improve our postal services going backwards and it creates anxiety.

People miss bills and NHS appointments, but it also pushes people further apart. When a postcode from a loved one is lost or a birthday message arrives late. Now I know the Minister shares the frustration and is working hard to turn things around. She understands, as I do, that places like Calderdale often feel the consequences of these failures first. Over the last decade, people in towns and villages like ours have seen a steady erosion of services they once took for granted. We've seen it with our buses, with our banking, with our department stores, high streets and people increasingly see it in Royal Mail.

Calder Valley doesn't have a single urban centre. It's a network of towns and villages that stretches from Todmorden and Hebden Bridge through Elland, Whitburn and Brighouse all the way to Rastrick. When organisations start cutting costs, it's communities like ours that are among the first to feel the consequences. And as communities like ours that already often feel the most isolated, my older constituents are more likely to rely on the Postal Service. It's how many hear from their hospitals, from the DWP, their bank, the local council. And while digitised, is, if you say digitisation of public services has brought huge benefits, it can't come at the expense of those who can't get online.

Those are some of the most vulnerable in our society. They're the people who are most likely to be affected when post doesn't arrive on time and missed hospital appointment and unpaid bill. Interrupted energy supplies can have serious consequences, and they're of no fault of our own. What happened to Royal Mail is the story of a failed ideological experiment. For years, we were told that privatisation and market discipline would drive up standards and drive down costs. Instead, my constituents have watched services deteriorate while accountability becomes harder to find. There is no real market. My constituents can't shop around for someone else to deliver their appointment letter.

They can't switch providers because their pension statement arrived two weeks late. Like the water industry, it's a service that people depend upon, but they've got no choice over. That is why it's so frustrating. This is not just another company. Royal mail is part of the fabric of this country. Its origins can be traced back to the 16th century, and they are the ones that maintain our iconic red post boxes. Our local postmen who we all value. Yeah, but in recent years, Royal Mail has been treated like a commercial asset rather than a public service. The opposition spent years picking through some of our most valued institutions in the hope of making a quick buck with ideological trust in the market, without properly considering the long term consequences.

What my constituents are looking for now is evidence that things are changing. Life is stressful enough. We shouldn't have to worry about whether an important letter will show up on time. I welcome the minister's determination that she's shown in holding Royal Mail to account, and tackling the legacy that we've inherited. But the truth is that for far too many people in Calder Valley, things are still not good enough.

21:14

Andrew Ranger MP (Wrexham, Labour)

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The final contribution Andrew Ranger backbench MPs have contributed should make their way contributed should make their way back to the chamber. >> Andrew Ranger yeah. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Like colleagues across the House, my constituents have been telling me for months and months and months now in casework, emails, in surgeries, on street stalls and everywhere else. You can think about that. The service that they rely on is no longer the one that they they could used to be able to, as has been mentioned many times, residents report important letters arriving weeks late, hospital appointments being missed, financial documents turning up long after they were needed, and businesses struggling with uncertainty over deliveries.

And for communities like Wrexham, this is simply not an inconvenience. As a matter of fairness, connectivity and trust in a public service. While many people have embraced digital communication, not everyone can. Elderly residents, vulnerable individuals, rural households and those without reliable digital access continue to depend on the arrival of a letter through the

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door. Of course, will. On that point about the missed deliveries and the. The emotional deliveries and the. The emotional cost, I suppose, of those missed deliveries. The chair of the Treasury Committee asked the Member for Bristol North West about how for Bristol North West about how the resource cost would be for Royal Mail. Does the member agree with me that potentially the cost to the economy of Royal Mail not delivering those letters, the cost to public services with the NHS appointments being missed could be rediverted in order to fund some of

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Royal Mail if it were to be renationalised Andrew Lewin. I thank her for her intervention.

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I thank her for her intervention. I think she makes a really good point. And yeah, it's definitely something we need to look at and investigate because I think that's investigate because I think that's probably a very valid point. So. Yeah, it is a matter of fairness, connectivity and trust in public service. You know, we've got elderly residents, vulnerable individuals, rural households and others who depend on those letters coming through that door. And it remains that lifeline for those who do not have digital connectivity and the failures, any failures disproportionately affect the most vulnerable. You know, has has been acknowledged across the House.

You know, we do know Royal Mail are facing difficult circumstances. You know, letter volumes have fallen dramatically over years. Over many years, parcel volumes have grown significantly. And that reflects changes across the world. You know, Royal Mail is operating at a loss and faces significant structural challenges. But all that being said, and understanding those challenges can not at me cannot mean accepting poor service. You know, one of the most concerning issues raised with MPs by postal workers and their representatives is the widespread perception that parcels are increasingly prioritised over letters, and constituents say the same as well.

And that's despite assurances to the contrary. You know, I've got constituents who see parcels arriving promptly on time, delivered by Royal Mail when they're supposed to be, but not letters. There are also seriously serious workforce concerns that are getting reported. You know, we've heard, again, retention problems due to changing terms and conditions, reports about postal workers leaving the organisation each week, a culture of intense monitoring and increasingly difficult working environment. And it is clear that Royal Mail cannot provide a high quality service without a motivated and stable workforce. And at the same time, serious questions remain about the long term sustainability of the current model in terms of universal service obligation, the delivery of letters and the regulatory model as well.

My constituents and everyone else's want three simple things. They want their letters delivered on time. They want transparency when things go wrong, and they want accountability from both Royal Mail and the regulator. Too often, MPs are told that performance is improving whilst residents continue to experience delays. Too often complaints disappear into automated systems without satisfactory answers, and too often local concerns are met with generic responses rather than meaningful action. And as it's been said, Royal Mail occupies a unique position in our national life. It's not just another company, it's a vital part of the UK's social and economic infrastructure, and it remains a public service even though it is a privately owned company, and that's why this matters.

So I would urge the Minister to continue engaging with Royal Mail Ofcom workforce representatives and consumer groups to develop a long term vision for postal services. Any future reforms must protect the universal service obligation, but recognise the needs of communities as well, and to support a sustainable workforce and ensure that no part of the country is left with a substandard service. And I wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West on some of the options that he presented about a possible future for Royal Mail. Our constituents do not expect perfection.

They understand that times change, markets evolve, but they do expect that when a letter is posted, it arrives when it should. And that is not an unreasonable expectation. It is the foundation of trust in a service that has connected communities for generations. Thank you.

21:19

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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Here I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson Victoria Collins. >> The members. >> For Redditch and Lichfield for securing this very important debate. And as has been highlighted, the And as has been highlighted, the post is not a nostalgic luxury for millions of people. It is how the hospital tells you when your appointment is, how the bank sends your statement, and how you'll find out about your benefits. People need to know their post will arrive on time so they can go about their lives. And as the Member for Calder Valley eloquently put, it, is also still about that human connection in a world where we feel most disconnected.

And I'm sure many members here know the impact as well of a handwritten note, especially to constituents who are having difficult times or facing difficult issues. How that really does make a difference. We also know, and so many have highlighted, that the posts are working hard to get us our post, and it is the Royal Mail who is letting them down. And I have so many incredible posts, but I would like to give a special shout out to Postman Paul, and you wouldn't be surprised to think that postman Pat had actually jumped out of the TV and arrived in Tring with Jess the cat in tow.

And so Paul delivers not only letters and parcels, but joy to residents and visitors alike. And so a special thank you to him. But just as so many have highlighted in Harpenden and Berkhamsted, I've got Gordon and Alina from Jersey farm, who told me they've gone ten days without a single letter. Then the postman arrived with a bundle of 12 or 13, and among them was an invite to my local surgery, just like I think the Member for North Somerset highlighted, which had already happened. So they had already complained about the Postal Service and indeed they raised the issue with myself too.

I continue to raise it, but the problem has not been fixed. It clearly goes on. Another constituent in Jersey farm, Irene, had no post for seven days and then 35 items in one go, including a new debit card. She also had to face severe delays to get a letter from a recent hospital appointment on how to take certain medicines. When people like Irene and her husband rely on letters about regular medical appointments, they cannot afford to be delayed, and a constituent in Sandridge said they're lucky to get one delivery a week. And I think, as this House has highlighted, that's actually quite a good delivery service, unfortunately.

But this should not be happening in 2026 and indeed these are not isolated stories and happening up and down the country. Citizens Advice found that over Christmas, 16 million people had letters delayed, and I can't remember which member it was, but one highlighted which Christmas will this get sorted out? And I think that's a very good question. And we have 5.7 million people who have suffered serious consequences, including missed health appointments, fines and benefit decisions. A third of people who use Royal Mail recognise exactly what Gordon and Athena described. No post for several weeks, then five or more letters landing at once.

The sorry saga of Royal Mail delays has been going on for far too long and people are rightly furious. Royal mail is simply not delivering the service it is required to provide. It has missed both its first and second class targets every year since 2021 to 2022. Last year, just 75.7% of first class letters arrived the next day against a target of 93%, and the regulator has not got a grip, as the business and trade committee put it, Ofcom is failing as a statutory regulator of the Postal Service, and it couldn't even tell Parliament how many letters were arriving late.

And instead of holding Royal Mail to account, Ofcom have lowered the bar. It cuts second class deliveries to alternate weekdays and relaxed the targets. And the Liberal Democrats at the time warned that this was letting Royal Mail off the hook. And in the first three months, Royal Mail missed even even these lower targets. And it now says it won't meet them until April 2027. And somehow people are paying more for less. A first class stamp now costs £1.80, and in 2022 it was just £0.95. That is seven price rises in four years for a service that keeps getting worse.

And many have highlighted that parcels are getting delivered. But I'd also highlight, as someone who ran an online business, someone whose mother also had an online business, and it also is products that are sent in letters to. And so something that hasn't been touched on much is the impact it's having on small businesses. I know this first hand experience. That cost is extortionate. When you have small margins that is killing a lot of businesses, and the terrible service is also killing small businesses when they have to compete with online services like Amazon. And so this is a key service for people and businesses.

And they don't need excuses. They need action. So will the Minister commit today to consult on new powers and teeth for Ofcom? Will the Minister ask Royal Mail to publish performance for every delivery office so residents like those in Jersey farm can judge for themselves? And so many, as members have highlighted. Finally, we must hold Royal Mail's owners to their promises and fix the front line. The government says it secured legally binding commitments from EP group to invest enough to deliver the universal services. So when the Minister does meet Royal Mail, will they put the failing delivery officers at the top of the agenda and make sure the agreements with postal workers are kept and report back to this House with a timetable.

When post doesn't arrive, people miss appointments, pay fines they never knew about, and lose faith that anything works. Christmas Royal Mail's busiest time of the week is only weeks away, so it must be sorted before then. But we all know it won't be and we will keep standing up for residents until it is. So thank you all again to our wonderful Posties. We'll be working hard, so hard to deliver, and we must ensure that Royal Mail doesn't down.

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Thank you. I call the Opposition Minister if you're ready.

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Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I also thank the hon. Member for Redditch, my constituency neighbour and the hon. Member for Lichfield, who I know Member for Lichfield, who I know feels incredibly strongly and passionately about this. Indeed, we've spoken about it many times before outside of the chamber. Our mutual woes over the lack of performance for Royal Mail. We all

21:26

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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21:35

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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21:51

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Thank you. >> Chris Law to wind up IEA. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. I've already had the best part of 20 already had the best part of 20 minutes, so I probably will not be long. I'd like to thank the Minister for her comprehensive Minister for her comprehensive response. I'd also like to thank the many honourable and right hon. Members from all parties for taking part in today's backbench debate. I've learned things about the service that I didn't think I would ever learn. Whether it is the infidelity, I don't know if the former Prime Minister, I don't know if I'm letting the cat out of the bag here, or the Jane Austen quotes that we heard before.

But I will just say this. The right hon. Member for Bristol North West talked about the direction of travel, of what is likely to happen if we don't take action. And I think despite the the light-hearted stories that we've shared on the more serious ones today, we are in a position in this House where we could lose universal services if we do not take action. And whilst perhaps I did not set out the same plan as the Member for Bristol North West when he used his time, I really do think that we have to understand that we are at a point of no return if we don't take strong and positive action.

I met our constituents will not forgive us if the universal service disappears, and it will cost us a

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lot more to try and rebuild it in the future. But thank you again for everyone taking part today. The question is, as on the Order

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The question is, as on the Order Paper as may I say, I, contrary no. Paper as may I say, I, contrary no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. That's the end of that business that allow the front benches to that allow the front benches to quickly shuffle over. Can I agree quickly shuffle over. Can I agree with you? Order. No, not the Dispatch Box. Please go backwards. Thank you. You can leave the chamber. You just need to exit that way. Yes. Marvellous. Now, whether I leave the house, I'm going to group the following exercise.

Unless there are any objections. We now come to motion number two. Business, innovation, science and

21:53

Motion on behalf of the Committee of Selection: Business, Innovation, Science and Trade Committee; Defence Committee; Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee; Energy Security and Net Zero Committee; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee; Foreign Affairs Committee; Health and Social Care Committee; Home Affairs Committee; Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee; International Development Committee; Justice Committee; Scottish Affairs Committee; Transport Committee; Treasury Committee; Work and Pensions Committee

21:54

Petitions

21:58

Adjournment: Jobs and employment opportunities in Staffordshire Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)

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22:17

Andrew Western MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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This debate has concluded

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