Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(14 years, 11 months ago)
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Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
3. What representations she has received from members of the public on the local crime and policing website.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
Since its launch on 31 January, our street level crime mapping website police.uk has received almost 400 million hits. The website is a strong example of this Government’s commitment to greater transparency in public services, by giving communities the information they need to hold their local police to account.
Oliver Colvile
I have received a number of positive comments on the crime website maps. Does my right hon. Friend have any plans or initiatives to add anything more to them?
Nick Herbert
Yes, the Government intend to build on the information currently given. There are six trailblazing police forces looking at how this can be done, including Lincolnshire police and West Yorkshire police, who are looking at how we might supply sentencing outcome information so the public know not only that the crime was committed, but what happened afterwards in the criminal justice system.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
In the interest of transparency, will the Minister consider adding to the value of the mapping crimes website by including figures on the dozens of police who will not be on the streets because of the huge cuts his Government are imposing on our police forces?
Nick Herbert
Oh dear, the hon. Gentleman has missed the point. If he looks at the website police.uk, he will see that the neighbourhood policing teams are shown alongside the area in which the individual lives. Every force up and down the country is committed to protecting neighbourhood policing, and those officers will remain on the streets for the public as savings are made in the back and middle offices.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
4. What plans she has to assist police forces to tackle antisocial behaviour.
Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op)
11. What estimate she has made of the likely number of police officers in Greater Manchester in March 2015.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
It is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority to determine the number of police officers that are deployed by Greater Manchester police within the available resource.
Jim Dobbin
Crime levels went down under the previous Government. That is a well known fact. The chief constable of Greater Manchester estimates that around 1,500 officers will be lost because of the cuts. Can the Government justify that?
Nick Herbert
I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are also 4,000 police staff working in Greater Manchester police. There was a huge increase in the number of police staff employed by police forces under the previous Government. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee that
“there was already a recognition, certainly in Greater Manchester Police, that some of our headquarters operations had got too big.”
Forces can and must make savings in back and middle offices while protecting the front line.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The Minister has not really responded to the real issue on this. Will he tell the House unequivocally—and repeat his view—that when we see the number of police officers reduced in Greater Manchester, as we will, it will have no impact on crime?
Nick Herbert
We are absolutely determined to maintain efficient and effective forces, and every chief constable I meet, including the chief constable of Greater Manchester, makes the same point. The chief constable said last week, after being misquoted on the matter:
“We need to have an intelligent debate about the cuts and see the opportunities, not just the threats.”
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The Government insist that it is possible to cut 10,000 police posts nationally, and up to 1,500 in Manchester. I should point out to the Minister that they also plan to cut nearly 1,600 back-office staff. We know from an answer that Baroness Neville-Jones gave in the House of Lords that there is no formally agreed definition of front-line police services. If those are not cuts to front-line police services, we would like to know what they are. Can the Minister get to the Dispatch Box and tell us exactly what the definition of police front-line service is, because if he cannot, how can he protect them?
Nick Herbert
I have defined it on a number of occasions, including in a written answer. Let me repeat it for the hon. Gentleman: front-line policing
“includes neighbourhood policing, response policing and criminal investigation.”—[Official Report, 8 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 194W.]
There can be savings in the back and middle offices, as at least a third of all spending is in those areas. If he thinks that there is no definition of front-line policing, how can he be so confident that there will be cuts in the front line? His position is nonsense.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
12. If she will bring forward proposals to change immigration bail conditions to make them consistent with proposed conditions for control orders.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
20. What research her Department has commissioned and evaluated on any relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The Government believe that police forces can make savings while protecting the front line. We do not accept that reducing costs will cause an increase in crime. What matters is how resources are used and how officers are deployed.
Owen Smith
The Minister will know that in south Wales we have already seen the announcement that 250 front-line police officers will lose their jobs. When I attended a meeting a couple of weeks ago with our police authority, it warned that a further 320 front-line officers could lose out as a result of the cuts. Is the Minister seriously telling the people of Wales that crime will not increase as a result of that enormous loss in front-line policing capacity?
Nick Herbert
I do not accept that the reductions in head count in that police force or in any other will impact on the front line, and I very much doubt that the chief constable would agree with that. I remind the hon. Gentleman of what the Home Affairs Committee concluded in its recent report:
“We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime. The reduction in the police workforce need not inevitably lead to a rise in crime.”
That is a cross-party Committee.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend that this is about how police forces are deploying their officers. In North Yorkshire, we have a particular problem with rural crime. I would be most grateful if he would meet me and other rural Members to discuss this issue. Farms and farm property, in particular, are being trashed because we simply do not have enough cover in rural areas.
Nick Herbert
I would of course be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue. I understand the importance of dealing with crime in rural areas just as we must deal with crime elsewhere. The police cannot act alone, and it is very important that there are effective partnerships with, for instance, the farming community so that, where possible, there can be a concerted effort to deal with this problem.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
21. When she plans to announce the outcome of her review of human trafficking policy.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
T4. Given media reports that police patrols are being scaled back because of the price of fuel and that Gwent police spend £4 million on their car fleet, including fuel, what action are the Government taking to help our local police officers to keep their patrols on the road?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman’s question is about fuel prices, which are not a matter for me, or taxation, or patrols. I repeat, however, that we are committed to working with police forces to maintain, and indeed to improve, the visibility and availability of police officers on patrol by making savings elsewhere in police forces.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
T8. At this difficult economic time, what steps is the Minister taking to make it as straightforward as possible for British businesses to take on highly skilled foreign workers, albeit under the auspices of the immigration cap?
Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)
T6. Hundreds of my constituents have signed a petition supporting the reopening to the public of Sowerby Bridge police station. Will the Minister urgently consider the matter, because it is at the very heart of the community and would play a huge role in preventing and tackling crime in the area?
Nick Herbert
We do not directly control whether police stations are open—that is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority—but there are other ways in which the police can improve their visibility to the public. For instance, they can set up bases in supermarkets. It is not just about buildings; they can also share facilities with other organisations. However, these are matters for chief constables to decide as they find effective ways to be visible in their communities.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
T10. Will the Minister confirm that the police officers working in Northumbria force’s public protection units dealing with serious crime such as child abuse and domestic crime are classified as front-line police officers?
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
This morning I attended the opening of the Kingswood one-stop shop, which includes a fixed police presence. It is the first time that the police have had a base in Kingswood since the previous Government closed the local police station. Will the Minister commend South Gloucestershire council and Avon and Somerset police for their collaborative working to ensure that front-line services are protected, and further consider how police authorities and local councils can work together to ensure that services are shared for public benefit?
Nick Herbert
I thank my hon. Friend. That provides a very good example of innovative ways of working that can increase the visibility of policing, and the co-operation between the police force and other agencies provides a perfect example of the way we need to go.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
When asked to justify the cuts to policing in Greater Manchester, the Minister for Policing, and Criminal Justice said that cuts could be made to the back office. May I tell him that at least 1,600 police staff are being made redundant in Greater Manchester on top of the 1,377 uniformed officers? I ask him again how he can justify that.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years ago)
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The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
Rural areas can present challenges for policing because of their geographical size and the remoteness of their communities. The Government’s reform programme to reduce bureaucracy will help policing in rural and urban areas alike.
Julian Smith
I thank my right hon. Friend. Will he urge police forces to work much more closely with fire services and others to share back offices and facilities in rural areas and save taxpayers’ money?
Nick Herbert
The short answer is yes. Police forces could make huge savings by collaborating with each other and with other authorities. An example is the proposed national police air service, which will save £15 million a year once it is fully in place. I hope that police authorities will agree to it.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Would it not be a mistake to prop up rural police funding by plundering the police resources of urban areas? For example, many people in my constituency are worried about the future of Sherwood police station. Why are the Government cutting the most from the least well-off communities?
Nick Herbert
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that would be a mistake, and we certainly do not make funding allocations on that basis. Of course police forces have had to make savings, but we have decided that the fairest approach is to ensure that all forces make an equal share of the savings. The majority of grant is, of course, allocated according to the formula.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Although co-operation among forces, and indeed between the police, ambulance and fire services, is essential, as the Minister correctly suggests, does he not agree that there is a real risk that if a rural police force such as mine in Wiltshire were to co-operate too closely with, say, Bristol on one side or Swindon or Reading on the other, resources would be pulled out of the rural areas and into the urban ones? Keeping a rural police service is extremely important.
Nick Herbert
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of keeping rural policing services. In the end, these are matters for the determination of chief constables, who must remain operationally independent and allocate resources properly, and their police authorities. We do not seek to interfere with that, but we do seek to drive savings where they can be made by greater collaboration between forces.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
The chief constable of North Wales says that it will be impossible to protect front-line services with cuts of £22.6 million over the next four years. Will the Prime Minister please tell us—[Interruption.] I apologise for what may appear to be a promotion. Will the Minister explain what assessment he has made of those figures?
Nick Herbert
That is easily the nicest thing that has been said to me since I have been in this job—indeed, it may be the only nice thing.
I want to discuss these issues with the chief constable of North Wales. We believe that by making significant savings in their back and middle offices, by sharing services and by improving procurement, it is possible for police forces to deal with funding reductions while protecting front-line services. It is up to the police authority and the chief constable to do everything they can to ensure that that is the case.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
6. What recent progress has been made towards the Government’s commitment to reduce net migration.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
8. What estimate she has made of the change in the level of crime since 1997.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The two main measures of crime—the British crime survey and police recorded crime—provide either a partial or confusing picture of trends in crime since 1997. It is crucial that we have a measure of crime in which the public have confidence. That is why we have asked the national statistician to lead an independent review of how it is produced.
Barbara Keeley
The picture of crime in Greater Manchester is neither partial nor confusing—between 1998 and 2009, the number of police officers rose by 1,200 and crime fell by a third. However, with the cuts imposed by this Government, Greater Manchester police will lose 1,400 police officers. Our chief constable told the Select Committee on Home Affairs that that will mean changes to policing, fewer police on the streets and a lesser service. What does the Minister—in his current role or any future exalted one—plan to do if the Government’s cuts lead to a rise in crime, as my constituents fear they will?
Nick Herbert
I should first of all point out to the hon. Lady what the chief constable of Greater Manchester police actually said. He said that
“the end result will be more resources put into frontline policing and a more efficient and effective service for the people of Greater Manchester.”
If she is going to mount her attack on the basis of police numbers falling, perhaps she will reflect on the fact that police numbers in Greater Manchester fell in the last year of the Labour Government.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Under the previous Government, more than 4,000 new offences were created—an average of 28 new offences for every month of that Government. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should not have a deluge of new offences under this Government?
Nick Herbert
I agree with my hon. Friend that the previous Government’s record was repeatedly to introduce criminal justice Bills and to create more and more offences. This Government want to ensure that the police can focus on crime fighting rather than on form writing and the bureaucracy that they were landed with by the previous Government.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
As the British crime survey was established by the previous Conservative Administration to produce greater accuracy in assessing levels of crime, why does the right hon. Gentleman not show the same courage as the former Home Secretary, now Lord Howard, and simply admit that crime went up inexorably until 1995, and that since then, on the Conservative’s own measure, crime has consistently fallen to one of the lowest levels that we have seen in three decades?
Nick Herbert
I note that on the right hon. Gentleman’s measure, crime started to fall two years before the advent of a Labour Government. He knows as well as I do that the British crime survey excludes important crimes—those against young people and property—and we therefore believe it is important that we have measures in which the public can have confidence. That is why we have asked the national statistician to conduct an independent review of those matters. I urge him and Opposition Members to join us in giving evidence to the national statistician. Let us reach a measure in which we can all trust and have confidence.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a DNA database, CCTV cameras and having as many criminals in prison as possible all contribute to a reduced level of crime? Would he like to comment on what impact the Government’s plans will have on levels of crime in future?
Nick Herbert
As so often, I do not agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Of course, the national DNA database and CCTV are important, but it is equally important that there is proper governance of them and that we achieve a proper balance between civil liberties and crime-fighting measures.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be working once again opposite the Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). I am only sorry not to be asking my first Home Affairs question of her.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice said that there is no link between the number of police officers and the level of crime. However, the Birmingham Mail has reported that some parts of Birmingham have already seen a recruitment freeze, a cut in the number of officers in the neighbourhood team and a significant increase in the number of burglaries in the past nine months. The local police, who are being put in a very difficult position by the Government, have said that they are struggling to fight crime in the area as a result. Does he still stand by his claim or will he admit, to the police and the public, that he has got it wrong?
Nick Herbert
May I first welcome the right hon. Lady to her post? I look forward to debating these issues with her, although I hope she will not follow the poor example of her successor—[Laughter.] I mean her predecessor. I hope that she will not follow his poor example by partially quoting Government Members. I did not say that there was no link, and she should know that. Instead, I should point out something said by somebody with whom I believe she has regular conversations: that this was a tighter environment for police spending, and would be under any Government. That was what the new shadow Chancellor said to the Home Affairs Committee on 22 November 2010, when he was shadow Home Secretary.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
9. What factors she took into account in reaching her decision to merge the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and the national crime agency.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
13. What recent estimate she has made of the effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review on police numbers in south Wales.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
It is for the police authority and chief constable to determine the number of officers in south Wales within the available resource. The Government are determined to help forces protect the front line by reducing costs and bureaucracy.
Kevin Brennan
It is quite clear that there are going to be huge reductions in the number of police officers in south Wales and elsewhere. Will the Minister tell the House exactly when the Conservative party decided that it was no longer interested in being known as the party of law and order?
Nick Herbert
I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. We have to deal with a budget deficit bequeathed to us by the previous Government. The police service spends some £13 billion a year, and it can contribute to the savings that have to be made. Those on the Labour Benches have conceded that police forces can save more than £1 billion a year without affecting the front line.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
14. What funding her Department will make available during the spending review period for the implementation of family intervention projects.
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
16. What estimate she has made of the number of police officers in Bolton (a) on the latest date for which figures are available and (b) at the end of 2014-15.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
Bolton Metropolitan borough division had 527 police officers on 31 March 2010. It is not possible to forecast the position in 2014-15. It is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority to determine the number of police officers and other staff that are deployed to Bolton.
Mr Crausby
Well, the Minister might be in denial about the numbers in 2014, but the rest of us know that under this Government there will be fewer police officers in Bolton in that year than there are now. After all those years in opposition making a case for having more bobbies on the beat, how can this Government retain any credibility without admitting that fewer police officers will mean more crime?
Nick Herbert
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will pay more attention to what the chief constable of the Greater Midlands—[Hon. Members: “Greater Manchester”]—police is saying. I am sorry, I mean the chief constable of the Greater Manchester police. He told The Bolton News that cuts would not affect the front line and went on to say that there was “no reason” why crime should go up. He pointed out to the Home Affairs Committee that some of the force’s headquarters operations had got too big and that some police officer numbers had been kept artificially high. He said that they had lots of police officers doing administrative posts just to hit that number.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
17. What recent assessment she has made of the extent of the activities of the English Defence League.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
T2. Contrary to the assertion of the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the chief constable of Greater Manchester, Peter Fahy, has said that £134 million of cuts will have a significant effect on front-line policing. He has gone on to say that police stations across Greater Manchester will now have to close. Does the Minister think that police stations are front-line? Will he tell us which police stations in Greater Manchester will close and when?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The closure of police stations is an operational matter for the police, but the right hon. Lady should know perfectly well that under the previous Labour Government some 400 police stations closed. What responsibility does she accept for that?
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
T4. In my constituency, there is a healthy appetite for more policemen actually on the beat. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fact that the chief constable of Gloucestershire has reorganised his force and has increased the number of policemen on the beat, from 563 to 661?
Nick Herbert
I welcome the action taken in Gloucestershire. The chair of its police authority has said that
“we are making sure that what we do is increase our capacity to police and not increase our costs.”
That shows that it can be done. Other forces are either protecting neighbourhood policing or even increasing it. I note that the chair of Gloucestershire police authority is also the chairman of the Association of Police Authorities.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
T6. Year after year, my constituents tell me that their greatest concern is fear of crime. That is why they have fought hard to get 10 safer neighbourhood teams. Because of the cuts, the local police force is now consulting not on merging back offices or services, but on cutting those 10 safer neighbourhood teams down to two or three. Does the Minister believe that those cuts will help my constituents fear crime less, or make them less likely to be victims of crime?
Nick Herbert
I have had several discussions with the Mayor, the deputy Mayor for policing and the acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner, all of whom are absolutely committed to protecting neighbourhood policing. We are all convinced that it is possible to drive considerable savings in policing, including the Met, in the back and middle office, so that the visible and available policing that the public value can be protected.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
T5. I congratulate the UK Border Agency on its work. At the weekend, it caught five illegal immigrants on the French border who had been making their way to my constituency in a lorry. I welcome the increased border policing on the other side of the channel, but what further steps will the Department take to ensure that stronger measures are introduced to deter those who try to smuggle people into the United Kingdom?
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
Further to the Minister’s answer on safer neighbourhood team policing, will he give a commitment that by this time next year there will continue to be a dedicated ward sergeant for every safer neighbourhood ward team, as now?
Nick Herbert
The hon. Lady should know that we cannot give commitments like that. The previous Government would not give commitments on police officer numbers. These are operational matters for the police. I point out to her that we have protected the neighbourhood policing fund, including by ring-fencing it for the next two years, because we value neighbourhood policing.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 1 month ago)
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Ed Balls
I hope that that will not be the case. The chief constable of West Yorkshire police has said the opposite to me. His priority will be to protect neighbourhood policing, if possible.
That point brings me to a smear that has been propagated regularly by those on the Government Front Bench. On the basis of the HMIC report, they claim—in my view erroneously—that only 11% of policing has been visible at any one time and that the other 89% has somehow been wasted on bureaucracy and form-filling. The fact is that 50% of that 89% comprises the policing of organised crime and domestic violence, criminal investigation departments, and work on drug and alcohol policies. Perhaps such policing is not done in neighbourhood teams, but it is vital nevertheless. It is discounted by those on the Government Front Bench as waste and bureaucracy. Frankly, that is an outrageous slur.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that he would have cut police funding by £1 billion a year, which is the HMIC proposal, and that under his proposals, there would have been no cut in police numbers. Will he explain how he would achieve £1 billion of savings?
Ed Balls
I fear that we may be wasting time by going over the same point, but I will explain it again. HMIC said that a cut of more than 12% in central Government funding would lead to a cut in visible, front-line police numbers. The coalition is cutting central Government funding not by 12% but by 20%. As the previous Home Secretary made clear, on the basis of the HMIC report, savings could be made in procurement and through collaboration—precisely the sort of cross-force collaboration that will be undermined by elected police commissioners. It is possible to do that without cuts to front-line policing. It is the Minister’s 20% cuts that will lead to a reduction in police numbers, as is accepted universally by police officers across the country.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
I apologise to the House for the fact that I had briefly to leave the debate. I was attending and addressing a meeting in the House of London members of the Police Superintendents Association, as were Opposition Front Benchers.
It has clearly largely been a good debate and I welcome the constructive comments that have been made and that have been reported to me. I shall attempt to respond to as many as I can either now or, if appropriate, later. The Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), mentioned his report and we are paying the closest attention to its recommendations, which we think are very considered. Like the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, he mentioned the importance of operational independence. We all agree about that and we all want to protect it. The Chairman of the Committee suggested that a memorandum of understanding might be the means by which that could be achieved. That is a good idea and the Government have already said that we will sit down with ACPO once the Bill is enacted and agree an extra-statutory protocol—I am sure that we can discuss these issues as the Bill makes progress—that will set out the terms of agreement to ensure that operational independence is protected. There is agreement between us and ACPO—it is important that the Opposition understand this—that we should not seek to define operational independence in the Bill. That is a matter for case law.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) made a number of important points and I shall respond in detail at the appropriate time, but let me deal with two of them now. We will be engaging with the Electoral Commission on its recommendations. He asked whether the strategic policing requirement could cover issues such as business crime. That is important, but the aim of the requirement is to cover issues of national importance on which co-ordination is required, such as counter-terrorism and serious organised crime, to ensure that elected police and crime commissioners and chief constables have regard to those cross-border issues. I am not sure whether that would be appropriate for the issues he raised, but it is worth discussing.
Mark Reckless
On the question of operational independence, one could get the impression from Opposition Members that police forces operate and are directed in a political vacuum. Surely, it is entirely appropriate that police authorities should determine whether Tasers, for example, should be used. None of us would expect police to start using water cannon and that sort of operational tactic without political permission and oversight.
Nick Herbert
I strongly agree and the Home Secretary said exactly the same thing today. Such tactics are a matter for the operational responsibility of the police, but such major decisions have to be agreed with the police authorities that hold them to account locally.
My hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) made good speeches supporting our plans to toughen alcohol licensing. I welcome the Opposition’s support for those measures, but what a far cry it is from the claims of the right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Tessa Jowell) that Labour’s 24-hour drinking laws were about
“enriching the quality of people’s lives.”
How naive that was. We have seen the result of those laws—violence and disorder in our city and town centres. So, Labour now repudiates its ill-judged experiment with the so-called café culture, but it is clearly going to oppose the measures on police reform for opposition’s sake. That is not the position of the former Minister with responsibility for policing, the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), however. Based on the notes I have seen, I think she made a thoughtful speech on the importance of accountability, although we may differ on the particular.
The shadow Home Secretary’s arguments against our proposals for police and crime commissioners are deeply unconvincing and he keeps getting things wrong. He attacked our statement on police funding today and got the numbers wrong. Last week, he said that the inspectorate of constabulary’s figures were “corrupt and erroneous”, but was then forced to retract those words. Today, he told the House that police and crime commissioners would have the power “to direct” policing, but that is simply wrong. Chief constables will retain control and direction of their forces, as it says in clause 2, which he should read. We are determined to protect the operational independence of chief constables. Police and crime commissioners will be able to set the policing plan with the agreement of the chief constable but they will not direct policing and nor should they.
The shadow Home Secretary said that the commissioners will be elected solely to run policing, but that will not be their sole job. They will be police and crime commissioners with wider powers and devolved budgets from the Home Office to fight crime and engage in crime prevention with the local community. If the right hon. Gentleman has such a good case, why does he need to invent objections to the Bill? He continues to assert that the commissioners will appoint political advisers, but we have repeatedly made it clear that we will not allow that. We do not want to politicise policing and we do not want spin in policing. We will not take any lectures about political advisers and spin from the friend of McBride and Whelan.
Ed Balls
I do not want to get into personal invective or to drag the important issue of policing down to the gutter. I have been told by a number of people who attended the meeting of the Association of Police Authorities at which the Minister spoke that he said that, if he were elected as a police and crime commissioner, the first decision he would take would be to appoint a political adviser. Was everyone else at that meeting mistaken or has he forgotten attending the event and saying those things?
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Gentleman is wrong and our intention is clear—we keep repeating it: we do not want political advisers and we have legislated for that in the Bill.
The Labour party complains about the cost of the commissioners and that complaint was repeated by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). We have made it quite clear that commissioners must cost no more than the police authorities they replace. Yes, there will be the cost of holding the elections once every four years—an average £12.5 million a year. That is less than 0.1% of police spend, and the money will not come from force budgets anyway.
Nick Herbert
Labour’s manifesto at the last election proposed referendums five times over—on the alternative vote, on reform of the other place, on mayors, on further powers for the Welsh Assembly and on the euro. Did Labour Members advance arguments against those democratic pledges on the grounds that they would cost money? Of course not. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) pointed out, of course there is a cost to running elections. Police authorities do not have that cost because they are not democratic. That is exactly what we want to fix.
Nick Herbert
For all Labour’s objections, one could be forgiven for forgetting that the previous Government twice proposed to democratise police authorities. So what happened? They backed down, twice. That is the difference between the previous Government and the coalition. The Opposition retreated from reform at the first whiff of opposition and we are determined to see it through. [Hon. Members: “Give way!”]
One thing is clear. Those on the Opposition Front Bench may be opportunistically opposing this reform, but we know what they really think about the need for it.
“Only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical.”
Does that sound familiar to the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker)? It should do. He said it just two years ago.
Is that too long ago? Let us look at what the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) said just two weeks ago. He told the Home Affairs Committee that “the present accountability of police authorities was not optimal.” What a masterpiece of understatement. If police authorities are sub-optimal, what proposals does he have for reform? None. He is silent on the issue. Today the right hon. Gentleman admitted that “there is more we can do to deepen accountability at force level.” What? He will not say. He is against reform of the governance of policing, but he is for it, just as he is against cuts while admitting that he would cut police budgets by more than £1 million a year. Apparently these can be delivered without losing a single police officer. That is what he said today.
Nick Herbert
On point after point, Labour Members get it wrong. They say that the constituencies—
Hon. Members: Give way!
Nick Herbert
Labour Members say that the constituencies will be too big, yet the largest constituency outside London will have 2.5 million electors, and the capital has more than 5.5 million. Londoners like the clear line of accountability that the Mayor provides. The Opposition run scare stories about extremists being elected. Did it happen in London? No. Fortunately, Ken Livingstone was replaced by Boris Johnson.
At the heart of objections to the Bill lies a deeply worrying philosophy. It is the view that one cannot trust the people. Heaven forfend that they might elect someone who represents their views. Those are the same disreputable arguments that were mounted against enfranchising the general public and women. The same attitude pervades opposition to the Bill—that one cannot trust the electorate. It is as undemocratic as it is elitist to argue that the public should have no say, and that our public services would be run so much better by people who are unaccountable and who know better than them.
Policing is a monopoly service and people cannot choose their force. This public service has to answer to someone. Is it to be bureaucratic accountability to Whitehall or local accountability to the people? We believe in trusting people and returning power and responsibility to communities. We think that local people should have a say over how their area is policed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) said, we think that local people should have power so that they can do something when problem drinking blights their town and city centres. We are determined to rebuild the link between the people and the police forces who serve them. That is why these reforms are right for the people, right for the police and right for the times. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
5. What assessment her Department has made of potential links between police officer numbers and levels of crime.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
There is no simple link between police numbers and crime—[Interruption.] What matters is how officers are deployed. Our aim is to reduce costs and bureaucracy to ensure that resources can be directed to the front line.
John Woodcock
Does the Minister understand how quickly he has seemed so completely out of touch with the reality on the ground? Every community up and down the nation will understand that more police on the street make people feel safer and that it has contributed to a lowering of crime over the past decade. Will he take this opportunity to retract his statement?
Nick Herbert
Surely the test of an effective police force is what we are doing with those officers. The report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman has read, pointed out that only 11% of a police force’s strength is visible and available at any one time. That number is too low. There is a problem with the bureaucracy that the previous Government created and that we have to deal with.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
The Met Police Commissioner says that a simple way of increasing police visibility in lower-risk areas is to end double crewing, where officers patrol in pairs, and to put individual officers on patrol. Can my right hon. Friend tell the House how many forces have adopted that very sensible policy?
Nick Herbert
I should say to my hon. Friend that these are operational matters for police forces, but we strongly support those who have taken what we regard as a sensible decision. The Met Police Commissioner and the Mayor have been clear that the move towards single patrolling has been hugely helpful in increasing police visibility, and that can be extended to other police forces.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
The Sunday before last, on “The World This Weekend”, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice told the nation that there was no link between police numbers and the level of crime—a quite astonishing claim. He also argued in recent weeks that it is not officer numbers that are key to cutting crime but individual directly elected police commissioners who will make the difference. As The Daily Telegraph reported, the Minister told a private meeting of police authority chairs on 9 November that, to make that happen,
“the first thing a directly elected individual will do is to appoint a political adviser.”
Will he confirm that he made those remarks, and does he stand by what he told The Guardian last week—that the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill will enshrine in legislation that these advisers
“may not…be a member of a political party”?
Nick Herbert
First, I did not say that there was no link; I said that there was no simple link. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman something:
“I don’t think it’s possible to make a direct correlation between police numbers and crime reduction.”
Those are not my words; they were the words of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) when he appeared on “Any Questions” in September.
In response to the hon. Gentleman’s specific question, he and his right hon. Friend should have taken care to read the Bill and the consultation document before making the allegation that police and crime commissioners will be able to appoint political advisers. We are determined that they should not be able to do so and have legislated for that. It is in the Bill that they may not appoint political advisers.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
6. What steps she plans to take to reduce annual immigration from states outside the EU to the tens of thousands.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The number of police officers is not set by central Government, but we believe that forces can make savings to ensure that visible and available policing is secured for the public.
Mr Speaker
Order. I realise that the right hon. Gentleman was slightly out of breath or a bit uncertain in coming to the Dispatch Box, but I believe that he is seeking to group the question with Question 8.
Paul Blomfield
Will the Minister note that there are 337 police community support officers in South Yorkshire whose jobs are at risk because of cuts in both police and local government budgets? Those officers have made an enormous contribution to the reduction in crime and the fear of crime. Does he accept that people across the country would believe that money was better spent on those posts than on the £100 million that the Government propose to waste on police commissioners?
Nick Herbert
First, I should say to the hon. Gentleman that our intention is that directly elected police and crime commissioners should cost no more than existing police authorities. Of course there will be a cost for elections once every four years—an average of £12 million a year, which is less than 0.1% of the national policing budget. We are determined to do everything we can to protect front-line policing and the number of police community support officers. We think they do a very valuable job in our communities.
Mrs Hodgson
As the Minister is no doubt aware, Northumbria police force, which covers my constituency, has recently confirmed that it is to make 450 civilian staff redundant immediately and it is imposing a recruitment freeze on all front-line posts, all because of the cuts made by the Home Secretary. Does the Minister think that those cuts to front-line policing will make my constituents safer?
Mr Speaker
Order. Opposition Members’ hearing is playing tricks with them. They did not hear what they thought they heard.
Nick Herbert
Mr Speaker, I am in very good company today.
The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) said that these were cuts to police staff. In all, there are more than 6,000 members of staff in Northumbria police force, including police officers, and I repeat that our determination is to do everything we can to support forces in making savings to the back office, in order to protect the front line and the visible and available policing that the public value.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Will the Minister advise the House on what is to happen to the neighbourhood policing fund?
Nick Herbert
I am afraid I cannot give an answer to my hon. Friend right now. We will shortly be announcing the provisional police grant. At that point, we will tell the House what we plan to do with the neighbourhood policing fund.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
I am sure that my right hon. Friend would like to congratulate the large number of regular police officers and police community support officers who have responded, often unpaid, to the crises of the past few weeks, including the bomb at east midlands airport, the violence here in Westminster and so on. In view of the spending review, how will we cope in future with the need for surging officers when those occasions occur?
Nick Herbert
As my hon. Friend knows, we prioritise counter-terrorism funding to policing, and it has received a measure of protection in the funding settlement. We will, of course, continue to prioritise it.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice is having a busy and rather stressful afternoon. I was hoping to ask the Home Secretary about police funding and numbers—and it looked like he thought that she would answer this question too. In any case, may I ask him about the Home Secretary’s Cabinet-level spending negotiations? I hope that she has filled him in on what went on. This week, the cross-party association of police officers wrote to the Home Office to ask for the spending review settlement for the police—20% front-end loaded cuts, followed by 6% next year and 8% the year after—to be reopened in order to
“avoid long term damage to policing capability”
and to protect the front line. Back in May, the Prime Minister told the BBC:
“Any Cabinet minister…who comes to me and says ‘here are my plans and they involve front line reductions’ will be sent back to their department to go away and think again.”
If the Prime Minister has not told the Home Secretary to go away and think again, will she listen to police chiefs up and down the country urging her to do just that?
Nick Herbert
I think that the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the Association of Police Authorities. The House might not have heard that he told the Home Affairs Committee seminar in Cannock on 22 November that this is a tighter environment for police spending and would be under any Government. He admitted that there would be cuts in police spending. We inherited £44 billion of unspecified spending cuts from his Government, and we are having to deal with the deficit, taking the decisions that he has forced upon us.
Ed Balls
The deputy to the Home Secretary will have to do a lot better than that. These cuts are front-end loaded and go well beyond the 12% over four years that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary said was do-able. I am pleased that he has not repeated the 11% smear against our police, which he knows is a completely corrupt and erroneous statistic. Hon. Members should look at the numbers. In north Wales, 230 officers are to go; in the west midlands, 1,100; and in Greater Manchester, 1,387. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said that
“there will be a reduction in frontline police officer numbers”.
The Home Secretary was not willing to stand up for the police in the spending review, and she is not willing either to stand up in the House and answer my questions on the police. She can refuse to answer my questions, but she cannot refuse to answer the questions from police officers and the public all around the country. Today—
Nick Herbert
First, may I say that I am absolutely astonished by the right hon. Gentleman’s attack on the figure of only 11% of total police strength being visible and available to the public at any one time? That was the finding of a report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, and if he takes issue with it, perhaps he will speak to the inspectorate. I think it is disgraceful that he should attack the figure in that way. The report stated:
“The fact is that general availability, in which we include neighbourhood policing and response, is relatively low.”
The right hon. Gentleman also quoted the chief constable of Greater Manchester police. In announcing the changes that he was making to the force, the chief constable said that
“the end result will be more resources put into frontline policing and a more efficient and effective service for the people of Greater Manchester.”
Instead of scaremongering in this way, and instead of attacking the correction that we are having to make, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will accept responsibility for bequeathing the deficit to this country that has meant that we have had to deal with public expenditure.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
9. What funding her Department plans to allocate to the provision of youth services provided by her Department in the spending review period.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
16. What assessment she has made of the likely effects of the planned reduction in Government funding for police authorities in (a) England and (b) West Yorkshire.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The Government will propose individual force allocations to Parliament later this month. By cutting costs and scrapping bureaucracy, we will save both money and man hours, so I am confident that the spending review should not lead to any reduction in police officers visible and available on the streets.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer and accept the logic of what he says. May I bring it to his attention, however, that the proposed cuts in grant reductions will lead to 7.07% cut to West Yorkshire police, whereas it will lead to a 0.17% increase for Surrey police? By looking at damping the formula grant, could we not find a fairer way and ensure that all forces have approximately the same reductions in their funding?
Nick Herbert
My hon. Friend raises an important point about both the issue of damping and the contribution to police funding made by the precept. I am afraid that I cannot tell him any more about our plans right now, but we will make an announcement to the House very shortly.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Perhaps I can help the House by quoting what the Minister said on “The World This Weekend” on Sunday 21 November. He said:
“There is no such link”
between police numbers and levels of crime. Let me ask the Minister, however, about a recent quote by the Home Secretary on special constables, as I do not have the opportunity to ask the right hon. Lady. We know that special constables are a valued extra resource for our police service. It has been reported that the Home Secretary said that she is looking to recruit an additional 50,000 specials, but does the Minister seriously believe that part-time volunteers can properly substitute for the core policing work of trained, full-time police officers and police community support officers whose numbers are being so savagely cut?
Nick Herbert
I repeat to the hon. Lady that I said that there was no simple link. She may have noticed that the former police chief of Los Angeles and New York was in this country last week. He wrote a number of pieces, which I think the hon. Lady should read. One thing he said was:
“It’s not so much the number of police you have… but what you do with them… You cannot spend your way to a safer community… Successful policing is not only about making the right investments: it’s about leadership and focus.”
I would suggest that Bill Bratton knows rather more about policing than the hon. Lady does. As to special constables, of course they are valuable and of course we would like to recruit more of them. They are not a substitute for what police officers do, but an important supplement.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
17. What plans she has for the future of the student visa system.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
On 31 October, on the “Politics Show”, the chief constable of Durham Constabulary, Jon Stoddart, said in answer to a question about the reduction in police budgets:
“Well what we are having to do is take more risks…That does not come without costs.”
What kind of irresponsible Government would make front-line police officers take more risks in their jobs?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The Government’s determination is to support police forces in England and Wales in making savings in the back and middle offices, by becoming more efficient, sharing services, improving IT, procuring together and so on so that they can protect the visible and available front-line policing that the public value.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
In relation to the use of control orders, the Government’s independent reviewer of terrorist legislation last week suggested that they should instead devise a new system. Will the Home Secretary heed his advice and replace them?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Some 1,400 police officers and 1,500 police staff are to be axed from Greater Manchester police. Given that the Conservatives—and the Liberal Democrats, for that matter —locally pledged more not fewer police in the elections last May, will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to apologise on their behalf?
Nick Herbert
The test of the effectiveness of a force is not the overall number of people who are working in it but what those officers are doing. We share the determination of the chief constable of Greater Manchester police to protect the front line and to ensure that officers remain on the streets and available when the public want them.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Is not my right hon. Friend concerned that some 2,000 police officers—almost equivalent to a whole police force—are off on long-term sick and unable to work? In any other occupation, such employees would probably be retired as unavailable for work. I do not understand why those provisions do not apply, because otherwise we have a number of police officers on the books who simply are not able to work.
Nick Herbert
I share my hon. Friend’s concern. It is an issue and we have set up a review of police officer employment and conditions, headed by Tom Winsor, that will make its first report shortly.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
9. How many police officers she expects there to be at the end of the current spending review period.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The number of police officers is not set by central Government, but we believe that forces can make savings to ensure that visible and available policing is secured for the public.
Mr Hanson
The Minister will be aware, because it has been mentioned already, that the poorest areas of England and Wales will bear disproportionately the brunt of any reductions in central Government funding, because the Home Office provides the bulk of resources to those areas in particular. That will mean fewer officers on the street and inexorable rises in crime. Is that fair?
Nick Herbert
I do not accept any of what the right hon. Gentleman has said. We believe that police forces can make significant savings in line with the report of Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which said that they could save more than £1 billion a year without impacting on the front line. The settlement that we have announced will enable them to protect the visible and available policing that is so important to the public.
Chris Evans
Fears over the cut in the number of police mean that there are real concerns that small forces such as Gwent police could disappear in forced mergers. Given the serious impact that that would have on the quality of front-line policing in Islwyn, can the Minister give an assurance that it will not happen?
Nick Herbert
I remind the hon. Gentleman that the previous Government proposed compulsory forced mergers. We do not intend to go down that route. Where forces wish to merge, if there is a sound business case and the merger has the consent of local people, we will not stand in the way. We believe that forces can make significant savings by sharing services and collaborating, without having to merge.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
How can the cost of elected police commissioners be minimised so that it reduces the impact on police officer numbers?
Nick Herbert
We do not wish elected police commissioners to cost any more than police authorities currently do. The exception is that there will be the cost of the elections, which will be once every four years. That will be met by separate funding. It will not come out of the police budget.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Given that 10% of criminals cause 50% of the crime, does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways to maximise the effective use of police time would be to ensure that our colleagues in the Ministry of Justice ensure that persistent and prolific offenders, when apprehended, serve their time in jail in full?
Nick Herbert
I was talking about that this morning to senior police officers responsible for criminal justice policy. Our concern is to ensure that rising rates of reoffending are reversed. That means ensuring that sentences are effective, and that we focus on the rehabilitation that is necessary to ensure that prisons fulfil their purpose and criminals go straight.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
It is interesting that the Home Secretary chose not to answer the question on the spending review and the impact on police numbers, but we have heard from both the Home Secretary and the policing Minister that thousands of police jobs are to be lost. The idea that that will not impact on front-line policing is one for the fairies. Can the Minister explain why the 20% cut announced in direct Government funding for police forces is front-loaded? In other words, of that 20%, why are the deepest, most far-reaching cuts in the first two years—next year 6%, in 2012-13 8%, then 4% and 4%? Why is the deepest, most far-reaching cut, 8%, in the year when the country is facing one of it greatest security challenges, the Olympics?
Nick Herbert
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position.
Olympic security funding is being prioritised in Home Office budgets, and counter-terrorist policing was subject to a much lower cut than the 20% cut for policing. We intend to ensure that priority continues to be given to counter-terrorist policing. We believe that significant savings can be made. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary found that only 11% of force strength, on average, was visible and available at any one time, because officers are spending too much time tied up in the red tape that the hon. Gentleman created when he was a Minister.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
What steps has my right hon. Friend taken to ensure that when the cuts come, they will impact on the back office rather than the front office? I have a particular concern in a rural constituency where front office is fairly thinly spread.
Nick Herbert
Chief constables agree with us that the front line should be the last thing that is cut, and under the spending settlement that we have announced, there is no need for the front line to be cut. They can make savings through better collaboration and efficiencies. That is what the inspectorate says. They can also make savings in relation to procurement, amounting to hundreds of millions of pounds. As a consequence, we think that the visible and available policing that the public value can be retained.
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)
5. What estimate she has made of the likely effect on the number of police community support officers in post of implementation of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review; and if she will make a statement.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
13. What estimate she has made of the likely effect on the number of police community support officers in post of implementation of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
PCSOs are an important part of the policing family, providing a visible, uniformed presence on our streets. It is for police forces and authorities to determine how they deploy their personnel, but we are clear that forces should be focusing on finding efficiencies in back-office and support functions to protect front-line policing.
Sir Peter Soulsby
In recent years community support officers have become a vital part of the policing team, particularly in the delivery of crime prevention and genuine community policing. There can be nothing more front-line than that. It is inconceivable that the Department has not made an estimate of the number of these posts that will be lost. The House deserves to know what that number is, and the public deserve to know how this vital service will be cut.
Nick Herbert
We do not set the number of PCSOs; that is a decision for chief constables. When I speak to chief constables throughout the country, I, like the hon. Gentleman, find that they value police community support officers, and there is an overwhelming desire on the part of chief constables to protect PCSO numbers, in so far as is possible, as an important part of the delivery of neighbourhood policing. I share that view with the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Jones
On Friday last week, Durham MPs met the deputy chief constable of Durham, who said that the constabulary was just about to announce 190 compulsory redundancies. When asked whether that would include community support officers, he said it could not give a guarantee, because the decision was dependent on whether its central Government grant was going to be protected. Can the Minister guarantee Durham that its money from central Government for PCSOs will be protected?
Nick Herbert
We will announce the specific allocations for forces and the future of particular grants later on this year, but on 20 October the chief constable of Durham said:
“It will be business as usual as far as local communities—and local criminals—are concerned… our commitment to neighbourhood policing is undiminished.”
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that good policing is about tangible results, and not fixated on cuts?
Nick Herbert
The previous Government would not give any guarantee on police officer numbers. Indeed, in many forces police officer numbers were already falling when this Government came to power. The test is about what those police officers are doing, and whether they are visible and available to the public. We will accept no lectures from the Opposition, who have put this country in the position of having to cut police officer funding. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am not quite sure what Members had for either breakfast or lunch, but I think I had better steer clear of both.
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
7. How many police officers there were in England and Wales in March (a) 2010 and (b) 1997.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
On 31 March 2010 there were 142,132 police officers, compared with 125,825 on 31 March 1997.
Mr Crausby
I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he believe that the previous Labour Government spent too much on police officers and too little on the European Union budget?
Nick Herbert
I will not be drawn on the European budget, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman what the previous Government spent too much on—red tape that tied up police officers and wasted police time. When we had a position whereby police officers were spending more time on paperwork than on patrol, we knew that something had gone wrong: it was costly and it reduced police availability.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Can the Minister tell us how we got to the sorry state in which warranted police officers are inside the building doing the police work and non-warranted officers—community support officers—are on the streets without the power of arrest?
Nick Herbert
We believe that police community support officers do an important job out in communities, and the fact that they do not have the power to arrest prevents them from being abstracted and builds confidence in neighbourhoods. However, we are determined to release police officers from the red tape that can keep them in police stations—for instance, by fully scrapping the stop form and reducing the burden of stop-and-search reporting, which will save 450,000 and 350,000 hours of police time respectively.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
West Mercia police authority tells me that it wants to protect record police numbers in Telford, and that one of the ways of reducing the administrative burden is to scrap the crazy, politicised idea of having elected police commissioners. Will the Minister save the money that he is going to spend, even if the budget is ring-fenced, and reallocate it to police forces for front-line policing?
Nick Herbert
May I remind the hon. Gentleman that the policy of increasing the direct accountability of police authorities was proposed twice by the previous Government, who backed down from that proposal in the face of opposition? We are determined to see it through, because we want to exchange bureaucratic accountability for democratic accountability and help to get police officers where they are needed—on the streets.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
8. What representations she has received from scientific organisations on the likely effects on the UK’s science base of proposed changes to the immigration rules.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
T2. Following comments by my local police commander, my constituents in the Barnet neighbourhood watch, ably led by Maureen West, have expressed concerns to me about the ring-fencing rule for safer neighbourhoods teams and the impact of possible further cuts as a result of the Government tackling the economic deficit. What assurance can the Minister give me that the reduction in the police family will not lead to a reduction in the police presence on the streets of my constituency?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no need for a reduction in neighbourhood policing. Many police forces up and down the country are making a commitment to maintain neighbourhood policing by finding savings in the back office and collaborating, and through better procurement and saving money.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
T5. We all want to see our police officers out on the beat more, but how will cutting police staff who often free up police officers from administrative tasks help with that?
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Many of my constituents are concerned that the inquiry desk at Rugby police station is being closed between the hours of 8 pm and midnight. Although I recognise the pressure on police budgets caused by Labour’s economic mismanagement, does the Minister agree that this decision should be reconsidered?
Nick Herbert
What is important is how visible and available the police are. There are innovative things that they can do instead of necessarily keeping police stations open at times when very few people visit them, such as setting up shop in shared premises in supermarkets. My hon. Friend should talk to his chief constable about such ideas.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
May I genuinely and unbegrudgingly thank the Policing Minister for recently visiting my constituency and seeing the award-winning group of police community support officers and police officers at the Caerau station? Thank you very much indeed. However, will he pay a return visit if we find that that team, or any others in my constituency, is broken up because of the police cuts coming down the line?
Nick Herbert
I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that I will be returning to the force area this week, although not to his constituency. I spoke to his chief constable a few days ago, and he assured me that by making savings, there would be protection for the visible and available policing in the streets that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents want to see.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
Is the Minister aware that a pioneering partnership between North Yorkshire police and the local community in Sherburn in Elmet in my constituency has seen the public inquiry desk at the village police station reopen? The desk is manned completely by volunteers. Does he agree that this is a great example of the big society in action? Will he join me in congratulating the local volunteers and North Yorkshire police—
Nick Herbert
My hon. Friend might have noticed that he just got a nod of approval from the Prime Minister. Helping to keep police stations and front desks open is a very good use of volunteers. There may be very few visitors, but that visibility is important, and there are many other ways in which the police can maintain such a presence in their areas.
Crime and Policing
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
Let us start with what is agreed on both sides of the House. We agree about the importance of tackling crime. Hon. Members of all parties have spoken about the importance of dealing with crime in their constituencies and of making their communities safe. We also agree about the importance of the police in tackling crime and the need to support them. We should all join in thanking the police for the work they do.
Beyond that, however, agreement ended, and we heard two kinds of speeches, reflecting the divide in today’s politics—the divide between this coalition Government and the Opposition who are stuck in the past. It is a divide between the realists and the reformers on this side and the deficit deniers and big spenders on the other side. Government Members understand the importance of, and the responsibility to deal with, the deficit. We understand the importance of organisations, whether they be in the private or the public sector, spending their resources wisely.
We heard good speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) and for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), reminding us that it is not just the number of police officers, but what they do, that matters. How available are they to the public? We should all be sobered by the report of Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, issued just a few weeks ago, telling us that only 11% of the police—about a tenth—are visibly available to the public at any one time. We should ask ourselves the question why. Why is there not greater efficiency in our police service; can the money be spent more wisely? The report also said that higher spending forces are not necessarily better than other forces and it proposed savings by greater use of civilian staff—some forces are doing that; others are not. As the Chairman of the Select Committee recommended, we need better procurement; we also need more effective collaboration and more back-office savings.
Hazel Blears
The HMIC figure of 11% of officers being available on patrol has been much discussed today. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s target over the next 12 months? What does he think he can deliver when it comes to having more officers on patrol?
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Lady has not understood the new world, has she? We want to move beyond targets. We do not believe that public services are improved by the targets of which she was so fond.
That issue was reflected in the second group of speeches, which called for more spending. Never mind that we spend £14 billion a year on the police—50% more over the lifetime of the last Government. These speeches—not least the right hon. Lady’s—called for more authoritarianism. Never mind about civil liberties: to hell with those, and who cares about the deficit? That was the substance of the shadow Home Secretary’s case.
Nick Herbert
No, I will not.
The shadow Home Secretary said that we should not cut, that we should not make any savings in respect of the police and that we should protect the police, but take no action to protect civil liberties or reform police accountability. That was his contention. Let us deal with those matters in turn.
In his winding-up speech, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said that the Opposition would have maintained resources for policing, while the Opposition motion says that the previous Government would have maintained core funding. Yet, on 20 July, on “The Daily Politics” in a debate with me, the shadow Home Secretary said that his Government would have cut by “£1 billion a year”—a cut of 12%. There was the admission that they would have cut spending. Now, however, they say that they would have maintained resources. They do not know what they would have done, but we know what they would have done.
Nick Herbert
No.
Just a few weeks ago, we know that Labour Members voted against a reduction in police spending, which this Government had to make in order to deal with the deficit. That reduction was by 1.5%, but Labour Members voted against it.
Nick Herbert
No.
How, then, can we take seriously the shadow Home Secretary’s contention that he would have cut by £1 billion? The truth is, as we know, that the Government who left office bequeathed to the country £44 billion-worth of unspecified spending cuts. Those were cuts that they were going to make. They would not say how, but we know that they were in the order of 20%.
Alan Johnson
I thank the Minister for giving way. It will give him a chance to get his breath back.
I have said this consistently, and I will say it again very slowly. We set out in the November White Paper, the pre-Budget report, the Budget and other public documents savings of £1.3 billion over the next four years. That is about 12% of the Home Office budget. The HMIC report, to which the Minister referred, said that with a lot of effort it was possible to save 12% without affecting front-line services. That is the argument.
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Gentleman says that he would have protected police spending. So which budget would he have cut more deeply? Would it have been health? Would it have been defence? Of course Labour Members will not tell us, but we do know that HMIC has said that £1 billion a year—12% of the budget— could have been saved through better and wiser spending. We will not know the availability of resources until the outcome of the spending review on 20 October, but we are determined to protect front-line services.
When he was Home Secretary, the right hon. Gentleman would not guarantee police numbers. Perhaps that is not surprising, because we know that police numbers across the country were starting to fall on his watch. He knew that he could not guarantee the funding, and he knew what was around the corner.
The second part of the shadow Home Secretary’s contention was that we should make no attempt to protect civil liberties. His entire attack was based on what we planned to do in relation to the restoration of those liberties. The Labour party’s position is straightforward: the DNA that is taken from innocent people should be retained. The shadow Home Secretary based that on the argument that crimes would be solved, so why should he stop there? If the end justifies the means, why not take DNA from everyone? If the Labour party is suggesting that all people are potential criminals, they should believe that that would deal with crime. In fact, the end does not justify the means. Labour, the party that proposed 90 days’ detention without trial, still does not understand that if we undermine liberty and erode public confidence in law enforcement—if we take away freedom—we do not make people safer at all.
The third part of the right hon. Gentleman’s contention was that we should not accept the need for reform of policing. The Government believe that we must replace the bureaucratic accountability and top-down targets of which the last Government were so fond with democratic accountability, rebuild the bridge between the police and the public and reduce Home Office interference, so that we can give local people a real say over policing in their areas.
Labour Members raised various spectres. The hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) spoke of the risk of politicians being in charge of police forces. Who else should be in charge of police forces, other than elected people? Police forces must answer to someone, and I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it might be right and proper for them to answer to democratically elected people. The shadow Home Secretary raised the spectre of extremism. That is a constant cry from the Labour party. The British national party won just 2% of the vote in the last election, but it suits Labour’s argument to suggest that extremists will be elected. We on this side of the House say, “Let us trust the people when it comes to who will be elected to these positions.” The people will decide who should represent them and hold the police to account.
We are determined that local authorities will still have a role on police and crime panels, and are determined to press ahead with this reform. The shadow Home Secretary said that the reform simply was not necessary. Why? Why, in 2003, did the then Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), propose directly elected police authorities?
“For many people”,
the Labour Government said then,
“the question of who is responsible for what in terms of keeping communities safe is simply unclear. We must rectify this. Strong, transparent accountability is vital for community confidence.”
In 2008 the Labour Government made the same proposal for introducing a form of direct elections into the governance of policing. The then Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, said:
“We are…committed to introducing a stronger link between those responsible for delivering policing and the public they serve. We will legislate to reform police authorities, making them more democratic and more effective in responding to the needs of the local community.”
Do Opposition Members think these arguments have changed? If they were right in 2003 and 2008, why are they not right now? Indeed, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) simultaneously said we should reject further restructuring—his motion says that—and proposed a third reform. He suggested just a few hours ago at the Dispatch Box that we should have directly elected police authority chairs. I say to the right hon. Gentleman, “Three strikes and you’re out. You’ve reneged on your promise to reform police authorities twice; why should we believe your latest back-of-the-envelope proposal to do it again?”
We, however, are determined to drive forward with our programme of reform, and it is reform that does not end at the greater accountability of local police forces. It includes measures to deal with serious and organised crime, the creation of a national crime agency, and placing police forces under strong duties to collaborate so they can cut costs and tackle crimes that cross force borders. It also includes a serious programme to tackle bureaucracy and to give the public more information through crime mapping and information about crime that is really happening in their streets—not statistics, which, frankly, the public no longer believe. It includes, too, proposals to reform the pay and conditions of police officers, and we start from the position, as we do across the public services, that we trust the professionals. That is why we want to return charging decisions to police officers, as was mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and for South Swindon (Mr Buckland).
The reforms move beyond policing, too. There are reforms of the licensing laws to deal with the problem of 24-hour drinking and reforms to the toolkit of antisocial behaviour measures to ensure the police and local authorities have the ability to deal with that problem.
We do not accept the right hon. Gentleman’s rose-tinted view of the years of the last Government. We do not accept what he described as the “glorious year of Johnson”. Where did that glorious year end up? It ended up with 10,000 incidents of antisocial behaviour every day, 100 serious knife crimes every day, 26,000 victims of crime every day and 1 million victims of violent crime a year. That is not a glorious record. Five million to 10 million crimes a year is not a glorious record; that is not a record about which the Labour party should be remotely complacent, yet Labour Members rise from the Opposition Benches and suggest nothing more needs to be done to deal with crime other than the ineffective remedies they proposed before.
What did the Labour Government spend their time doing? They spent it wasting money by amalgamating forces, creating bureaucracy with reams of guidance, introducing a policing pledge and spending £6 million a year on doing so, and, of course, creating new laws: 50 Acts of Parliament and 3,000 new offences, and not just offences that would help deal with crime. After all, did these offences make people safer? No, they did not. With their new laws, the Labour Government introduced 24-hour drinking and the so-called café culture, and they downgraded cannabis. They also released 80,000 offenders early under their end-of-custody licence scheme, which, of course, they scrapped just before the election was called. Above all, they spent and wasted industrial sums. They are in double denial: they created the deficit and they are failing to deal with it. We say that we cannot go on like this, spending more than three times the entire budget of the criminal justice system—that of the police, courts and probation service—on debt interest every year. We are determined to deal with the deficit and it is our responsibility to do so. That is the difference between the two sides—we are driving radical reform and they are stuck in the past.
Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr Speaker
I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con)
8. What recent steps she has taken to make police forces more accountable to local people.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The introduction of elected police and crime commissioners to hold their chief constable and force to account through a strong public mandate will restore the connection between the police and the people, ensuring that the police are held to account democratically, not bureaucratically by Whitehall.
Mark Lancaster
Government attempts to make police forces more accountable to local people are welcome. Thames Valley police has decided to scrap the basic command unit. In the light of that, how does the Minister intend to ensure that central resources previously held by the basic command unit will still be allocated fairly across Thames Valley police?
Nick Herbert
Decisions on whether to continue with the basic command unit structure within forces are a matter for chief constables to decide, and not one on which the Government have taken a view. I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concerns about resources and am happy to discuss them with him and to find out from the chief constable when I next see her, which will be this week, what she plans to do to allay them.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a partnership between the police force and the local community is the best way to tackle crime?
Nick Herbert
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend, and I know that Opposition Members will also strongly agree. The police, important though they are, cannot fight alone. It is essential that they work in partnership with the public and local authorities to prevent and drive down crime.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for banning the English Defence League march in Bradford. She listened to the calls of local residents and the police and was right to support the banning order. However, that was for a march, and a static demonstration happened. Can we look at the legislation again to see whether we can stop even the static demonstrations, which cost taxpayers a huge amount of money?
Nick Herbert
As the hon. Gentleman may know, we are considering peaceful protest and ensuring that rights of peaceful protest in this country are protected. However, extremist activity, or activity that can inflame and damage communities, is not acceptable. We will ensure that we achieve the right balance in relation to peaceful protest.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
If the Conservative party believes so fervently in direct accountability, why is the unelected deputy Mayor chairing the London Metropolitan Police Authority?
Nick Herbert
It is entirely a matter for the Mayor whether he wishes to delegate those functions. That is permissible in London, but ultimately the buck stops with the Mayor and Londoners know that.
Alan Johnson
Yes, well, it is not very reassuring that the most prominent, high-profile Conservative Mayor—the Minister and I agree that the Mayor should take responsibility for the police—steps down and allows his unelected deputy to chair the Metropolitan Police Authority. That person, Kit Malthouse, says that chief constables are “mini-governors” who “control a standing army”. Does the Minister agree with that? Does he think it right that the deputy Mayor of London should chair the Metropolitan Police Authority when he says that elected commissioners would be able to “wield the rod” over chief constables? Is that the purpose of the reforms?
Nick Herbert
First, I should say that the Labour Government’s legislation introduced the arrangements that allow for the transfer of functions to the deputy Mayor. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have changed his mind about that. On our proposals, he knows that we want to enhance the accountability of local policing. Police will remain operationally independent.
“Strong, transparent accountability is vital for community confidence”—
they are not my words but those of the previous Government’s Green Paper when they proposed direct accountability and then reneged on that pledge.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
6. What recent representations she has received on the proportion of police officers’ time spent on administrative tasks.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
16. What recent representations she has received on the proportion of police officers’ time spent on administrative tasks.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
I have spoken to many officers about the time that they have to spend filling out forms. The Government are committed to reducing bureaucracy so that the police can get back on to the streets and deal with crime.
Nadhim Zahawi
In Warwickshire, our police force has to deal with 1.5 million phone calls over and above the emergency calls every year, and rightly so. Does my right hon. Friend know that, under the previous Government, the police spent more time on paperwork than on patrolling the streets? That is wrong.
Nick Herbert
I appreciate the burden that non-emergency calls place on police forces. The Government are investigating how we can take forward a plan for a national non-emergency number, which I think will improve the service to the public. We are committed to reducing bureaucracy. We have already scrapped the policing pledge and the previous Government’s targets. We want to ensure that police officers can be out on the streets where the public want to see them.
Karen Lumley
I understand that in my constituency of Redditch, much progress has been made on reducing the time that police spend on administrative tasks, and I appreciate that paperwork is necessary. However, the number of robberies and other theft offences has risen in Redditch since 2007. Does the Minister agree that such crime could be significantly reduced if the police were given more time on the beat and spent less time filling in forms?
Nick Herbert
I agree with my hon. Friend and understand her concern about those crimes. A recent report of the inspectorate of constabulary found that the police were visible and available to the community for an average of only about 10% of the time because they are too tied up in bureaucracy. We must tackle that.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister start to collect statistics on how long the police have to wait in court to give evidence? If his Government start slashing the Crown Prosecution Service budget, closing courts and reducing civilian officers, will that waiting time not grow longer?
Nick Herbert
The fact is that we have one of the most expensive criminal justice systems in the world. The test of its effectiveness is not the amount of money that we spend on it, but how efficient it is. Tomorrow I shall discuss with the inspectorate of constabulary the administrative and bureaucratic obstacles that impact on the police in inefficient court processes, which we must tackle.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
7. What steps she plans to take to implement the proposed cap on net immigration.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
9. How much central funding for police forces she plans to provide in 2011-12.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
Future funding for the police service will be announced in the spending review, which reports on 20 October. I cannot speculate on the outcome of this review, but the Government’s priority is to cut the deficit, and the police must play their part in achieving this.
Mary Creagh
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. He has already cut the police budget in year by £125 million, the equivalent of approximately 4,000 police jobs. If he is to make a 25% cut as the comprehensive spending review requires, it will be a cut of some £1.1 billion, the equivalent of some 40,000 police jobs. Can he confirm that that is the order of magnitude of the cuts that he is looking at? A simple yes or no will do.
Nick Herbert
The hon. Lady is just speculating. In relation to the in-year cut to which she objects, it is important to understand that it represents less than 1% of what the police will spend this year, and our view is that the police can find those efficiencies and make the savings. In relation to further cuts, there will have to be savings, but the independent inspectorate of constabulary said a few weeks ago that police forces could save more than £1 billion a year—equivalent to 12% of spending—without having an impact on the front line.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
This morning, at the invitation of the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), I visited Medway and was shown two innovative, award-winning schemes pioneered by the police there to combat prostitution and to ensure effective offender management. The chief constable of Kent told me that if the envisaged cuts of 20% are put in place, 1,500 jobs will be lost in Kent and £35 million will come off his budget. Will the Minister give us an assurance that the schemes that I saw today, and others all over the country, will be protected? Could he at the very least give police authorities an early idea of the budget constraints they will have to deal with, as 25 October is quite a long way away?
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Gentleman invites me to speculate ahead of the spending review outcome, and he knows that I cannot do that. We will know fairly shortly what sums of money will be available to police forces, but it will be necessary for them to make savings, and it will be up to chief constables to achieve greater efficiencies and more collaboration between forces. The inspectorate is clear that those efficiencies can be made.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what bid he has made to the Treasury for police funding for future years? How many fewer police officers does he expect to see on the streets in two years’ time if the proposed settlement is achieved? Ultimately, is he battling for the police or implementing the axe for the Treasury?
Nick Herbert
What is clear is that the Opposition still have not faced up to their responsibility for bequeathing us the fiscal deficit. They left us with £44 billion of unspecified spending cuts. The shadow Home Secretary told “The Daily Politics” show on 20 July, in debate with me, that they would have cut by £1 billion, by 12%. But Labour voted against a spending cut of 0.5%. It demonstrates that it—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Minister. “The Daily Politics” is a fascinating programme, but I do not want to hear about the dilations of Opposition spokesmen on it, because the purpose of Question Time is to hear about the policies of the Government.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
12. What the recorded crime rate was in (a) 1997 and (b) 2010.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
In 1997, the police in England and Wales recorded a rate of 88 crimes per 1,000 head of the population. For the year ending March 2010, the rate was 79 crimes per 1,000 head of the population.
Karl Turner
Does the Minister share the concerns of Tim Hollis, the chief constable of my area, when he warns that cuts of 25% to his budget would lead to cuts in officer numbers, which would mean that crime figures would be likely to increase as a result of measures taken by the coalition Government?
Nick Herbert
No, I do not agree. We believe that the police must accept their share of the savings necessary to deal with the deficit that was bequeathed to this Government by the previous Government’s reckless mismanagement of the economy.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that during the last year of the previous Government, police numbers in the Humberside force—the one that serves my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner)—fell by 150? There are nevertheless still concerns about how to move forward on this issue. Can we have an assurance that when we eventually restructure police organisation, rural policing will be treated with as much importance as city centre policing has been in the past?
Nick Herbert
First, my hon. Friend is right that police numbers were falling in a number of forces under the previous Government, so their feigned outrage about it now cuts little ice. I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about rural policing, as do many of us who represent rural areas, and we appreciate the need to ensure effective policing in both rural and urban areas.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
The Minister will have taken advice in preparing his submissions to the Treasury on the potential impact on crime of cutting police funding. What was that advice and will he share it with the House?
Nick Herbert
We do not accept that the police cannot make savings. That seems to me to be the point of difference between the Government and the Opposition on this issue. Like other public services, the police will have to spend money more efficiently. We are committed to ensuring that resources reach the front line and to doing everything we can to reduce bureaucracy, but police forces must find new ways of working—by collaborating and so forth—to ensure that they deliver good value for the taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman should understand the importance of wise spending rather than big spending.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
13. What steps she is taking to reduce annual net immigration to the UK.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
T4. Last week, Brooke Kinsella visited the Corner House youth project in Stockton, which has been very successful in highlighting, through talks and special activities, the dangers associated with knives. Will the Minister consider implementing similar programmes in constituencies such as mine which, tragically, have only recently once again had a serious knife crime incident?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
The Government are grateful for the work of Brooke Kinsella in considering how we can deter young people from carrying knives, and she will be reporting to us later this year. We are interested in successful schemes such as that which my hon. Friend describes, and if he will send me further information on it, I will gladly study it.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Does localism extend as far as consulting local communities about any proposals to cut safer neighbourhood teams?
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
T5. Last week on ITV a programme about community payback showed offenders on community payback smoking cannabis and not being properly supervised. How can we be sure that community payback means exactly that?
Nick Herbert
I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House who saw that programme will have been angered, as I was, by the scenes depicted where offenders were, frankly, sticking two fingers up at the criminal justice system and smoking cannabis. They were not being properly supervised. That is being investigated, and we must have confidence that these community sentences are administered rigorously.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
T7. Will the Secretary of State tell us what representations have been received from police and members of the youth offending teams regarding their concerns about youth offenders who do not comply with the licence conditions, in particular the community element, of detention and training orders?
Nick Herbert
I am not aware that we have received any representations about these orders, but the same argument as before applies: it is essential that they are administered properly, that they are completed and that the public can have confidence in sentences containing a community element. We will be publishing a sentencing review later this year, and I will also discuss these issues with the Youth Justice Board.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Has the Home Secretary read Saturday’s Yorkshire Post and the appeal made by the Archbishop of York, on his knees, as it were, to the Government asking them to opt in to the EU directive on sex slave trafficking. The Home Secretary is right to say that there are many measures in law in this country that deal with that, as there are in other EU member states. However, the point is that we need to send a signal to the pimps and traffickers that we are co-operating at a European level. It took three or four years to get the Council of Europe convention adopted—that was against the opposition of the Home Office in the previous Government. Do not stand on the side of the pimps and traffickers; stand with the Archbishop of York and the victims of this terrible trade.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Police community support officers have become an essential part of local communities in Nottingham and elsewhere, so what reassurance can the Minister offer on this matter to my constituents, who are worried that the cuts in policing proposed by the Government will lead to a reduction in their number?
Nick Herbert
We share the hon. Lady’s support for PCSOs, which we believe are an important part of the policing family. We are determined that police forces should make efficiencies and savings, and that the front line of policing will be protected.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
T9. May I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to look into the case of one of my constituents, who is apparently being deported for working for too many hours in a part-time job and losing her working visa in this country?
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
The Minister will be aware of the awful case, widely reported at the weekend, of Sergeant Mark Andrews of the Wiltshire constabulary who was convicted of a serious assault on my constituent, Miss Pamela Somerville, when she was incorrectly in police custody. Will Ministers take a look at the rules, regulations and protocols covering police cells to make sure that that kind of outrageous event cannot occur again?
Nick Herbert
It is essential that offenders taken into custody are treated and supervised properly. I will happily look at the matter and ensure that we have adequate systems in place to ensure that is the case.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts(15 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
5. How many community protection officers there are in the city of Nottingham.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
I understand that there are 102 community protection officers in the city of Nottingham. Nottingham also has 30 auxiliary officers, funded through the working neighbourhood fund, who work with the community protection officers. Those officers work in close partnership with neighbourhood policing teams in the city.
Mr Allen
Will the Minister congratulate the city of Nottingham division of the police—and, indeed, police community support officers and community protection officers—on the massive reduction in crime in the city? Will he emphasise that that is because people trust the uniformed presence that they have seen on the streets in the last five or six years, and will he ensure that that level of uniformed protection remains in future years under this coalition Government?
Nick Herbert
I recognise the role that community protection officers play in Nottingham as part of the wider policing family, alongside PCSOs and police officers. The Government have had to reduce national allocations in order to reduce the budget deficit, but we have also relaxed ring-fencing to give the city council and its partners freedom to determine their priorities in order to meet local needs and provide local opportunities.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
7. What representations she has received from Scottish Water on removal of the security fences at Milngavie waterworks.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
15. What recent representations she has received on the amount of time spent on administrative tasks by police officers each year.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
When I have spoken to police officers, they have asked us to help to free them up to do the job they are paid to do. I am committed to returning common sense to policing, which means getting officers back out on the streets dealing with crime, not sitting behind desks filling out forms to meet Government targets.
Damian Collins
I thank the Minister for his answer. When I was recently on patrol with the Kent police in Folkestone in my constituency, they shared with me their concerns about the large amount of paperwork that goes to support front-line policing. Does the Minister agree that the priorities for the policing budget should be to support front-line police work in the community, not excessive bureaucracy?
Nick Herbert
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Every Labour Home Secretary promised to cut bureaucracy, but the police still spend more time on paperwork than on patrol. We are determined to make a real difference by dealing with the central targets that bedevil policing and doing all we can to protect the front line.
Jackie Doyle-Price
Does my right hon. Friend agree that by freeing up police officers to spend more time on patrol, we will not only aid crime prevention but make the public feel much safer?
Nick Herbert
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. What the public want to see is police officers out on the beat. They do not want them to be tied up with unnecessary paperwork. That is why we are so determined to deal with the performance management framework and the targets that have prevented them from doing the job they want to do.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I welcome the Minister for Police to his first Home Office questions. What he has said is absolutely in agreement with the recommendation of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, which is that we should get police officers out on the beat. Will he therefore accept the other recommendation, which is that there should be full investment in new technology, giving police officers hand-held computers so they can spend more time on the beat than in police stations? Will he defend that part of the Home Office budget against any Treasury cuts?
Nick Herbert
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind introduction. I recognise the importance of technology in assisting the process of reducing bureaucracy, such as in our commitment to scrap the stop form, which is an unnecessary and bureaucratic impediment to common-sense policing. There is a role for technology such as hand-held computers in recording stops and searches in accordance with the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestions.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Does the Minister agree with me, however, that there are some administrative tasks that are worth performing, such as the judging of the Best Bar None competition in my constituency, which was awarded to The Woodman pub in Carshalton?
Nick Herbert
If my hon. Friend were to invite me, I would be delighted to attend the pub with him so I may judge the best performance for myself.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his position, but I might just advise him that we did actually stop the stop form in the Crime and Security Act 2010—but I will let that pass. Will the right hon. Gentleman today tell the House how much money he expects to save by tackling police bureaucracy over the next three years? Does he understand that, however much he saves, it will be nowhere near enough to compensate for the 25% cut he is planning in the Home Office budget, which will remove 35,000 police officers and 4,000 PCSOs from the beat? How does he expect that to help to fight, and reduce, crime in Britain?
Nick Herbert
Once again, we see absolutely no understanding from the Opposition about the fiscal position we have inherited from them. The fact is that their Government left us with an unspecified cut of £44 billion to find across Government Departments. They would not say where that money was to be found, so we have to make the savings. I believe that police forces can do it, and we are also determined to protect the front line.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
9. When her Department plans to undertake its review of the terms and conditions of police officer employment.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
The Government have announced a review of the remuneration and conditions of service of police officers and staff. We will provide information about the review, including timing, shortly.
Tony Baldry
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Although I welcome the Government’s decision to honour the third year of the police pay award, does my right hon. Friend agree that the time has now come to review police pay and conditions, and to ensure a more flexible work force who are not so dependent on extensive and expensive overtime?
Nick Herbert
My hon. Friend is right. The previous Government conceded that more than £70 million a year was being wasted on police overtime. We need to look at that and it is one of the things that the review will do. We have, however, stood by the third year of the police pay award, as my hon. Friend suggested, which indicates our good faith towards the process and the value we place on the police service.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Could the Minister for Police, whom I welcome to his departmental responsibilities, kill two Lib-Con birds with one stone—namely, reduce the £400 million in overtime and bring public sector pay under control by saying that every hour of overtime authorised by a chief constable or a senior police officer will be deducted from their own pay?
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Gentleman may be offering himself as a candidate to serve on the pay review that we are proposing. Perhaps I should have a discussion with him about that. We have to strike a balance. Many chief constables believe overtime is an important management tool, but we are concerned about the extent of its use. That is exactly the kind of thing the pay review will have to look at.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
10. What recent progress the UK Border Agency has made on processing the backlog of outstanding asylum cases.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
16. What plans she has to tackle serious and organised crime; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
Tackling serious organised crime requires effective co-operation and co-ordination across law enforcement. We will work with police forces to strengthen arrangements to deal with serious crime and other cross-boundary policing challenges.
Elizabeth Truss
I am pleased that Norfolk constabulary is collaborating with other police forces in the region to work against the scourge of serious and organised crime. However, I understand that, on a national level, that collaboration is not yet as strong as it is in counter-terrorism. What plans do we have to put serious and organised crime fighting on a similar footing?
Nick Herbert
I know of the close interest that my hon. Friend takes in these matters, having been the author of a publication that proposed better arrangements to deal with serious crime. We will not pursue the Labour party’s policy of compulsory mergers of police forces. We believe that it is necessary for police forces to collaborate better to deal with organised crime, just as better collaboration has been achieved in counter-terrorism activity, and that is the policy that we shall pursue.
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister accept that the internet is increasingly being used by those who get involved in serious and organised crime? Does he agree that a partnership approach, making use of the talents and expertise of people in business, is essential to reduce the extent of internet use for the purposes of crime?
Nick Herbert
I know that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), is already in correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman about this matter. E-crime is a serious and growing problem, and it must make sense to tackle it on a partnership basis, with law enforcement agencies and business working together, and that is what we will do.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
18. What the percentage increase or decrease in the number of crimes reported in North Yorkshire was between (a) 1980 and 1997 and (b) 1997 and 2010.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
The police in North Yorkshire notified the Home Office of nearly 22,000 offences in 1980; just over 50,000 in 1997; and 48,500 in 2008-09. During this period there have been considerable changes to reporting levels and to how the police record crime, and I am advised that these figures are not comparable.
Hugh Bayley
Comparable figures show nationally a 38% decline in crime. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the police on reducing crime in North Yorkshire and York? Does he agree with the statisticians in his own Department and the UK Statistics Authority that the British crime survey is the best way of measuring long-term trends in crime?
Nick Herbert
I agree that the British crime survey plays a valuable role, but the problem is that, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not complete. For instance, it misses out the recording of crimes against young people. Last week, the experimental figures showed that there may be up to 2 million crimes that were previously being missed by the British crime survey. Police recorded figures also have their problems. We need measures of crime in which the public have confidence, and we will be making further announcements about that in due course.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that many crimes that were previously dealt with as breaches of the peace are now dealt with as antisocial behaviour? Will the Government now grasp the nettle and tackle such crimes using police forces, rather than councils, which are not open over the weekend and in the evening, when most of those crimes are committed?
Nick Herbert
It is important to convey the message that antisocial behaviour may be activity that is criminal and should be treated as such. The public still feel that there is too much antisocial behaviour in their neighbourhoods, and they want it to be prioritised by police forces. The best way to do that is not only by policing but through effective partnerships on the ground, using the full range of resources that can be provided by local authorities, other agencies and the police family working together.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
19. What recent representations she has received on the amount of time spent on administrative tasks by police officers each year.
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to group this question with Question 22.
Mr Speaker
Order. I have had no indication of that grouping. There is a practice now developing of this happening spontaneously. It really will not do. We shall see how it goes today. I call the Minister.
Nick Herbert
I apologise, Mr Speaker. I refer my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) to the answer that I gave some moments ago.
Amber Rudd
I thank the Minister for his answer. Recent statistics demonstrate that police spend 14% of their time on patrol and 20% on paperwork. Will he give an example of what administrative function might be cut from their work, so that we can give them the opportunity to spend more time out on the beat?
Nick Herbert
The most important example is the policy we have had for a long time: scrapping the unnecessary stop form, whose introduction made it harder for police forces to interact sensibly with the public, and resulted in a great deal of unnecessary bureaucracy. However, we will not stop at that, but will look at the whole performance framework and the central targets that have bedevilled policing for too long. We will free up police officers, so that they can do the job.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Given that the Minister wishes to free up police officers to spend more time on the beat, and given the recent survey that predicts 35,000 fewer police officers on the beat, what assessment has he made of how many administrative tasks he will have to scrap to maintain an appropriate and effective police presence?
Nick Herbert
I should say to the hon. Gentleman that we do not recognise those figures. Our policy is that we want to do everything possible to enable chief constables to prioritise the front line and maintain police officers out in the neighbourhoods, where the public want to see them. To do that, we must ensure that we reduce bureaucracy.
Mr Speaker
Order. No blame is imputed to the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). It is simply that the grouping of his question with Question 19 was not something of which I had notice, and it is not a grouping to which I would ordinarily agree, for reasons of progress down the Order Paper.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
T5. The Home Secretary is aware of the current discussions about a potential merger of the police forces of Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. Does she agree that such discussions are worth while at this time to achieve a fairer allocation of police resourcing and a more efficient allocation of resources where it matters—on the front line with our police?
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert)
I can confirm to my hon. Friend that I am due to have a meeting with the chief constables of Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire to discuss the matter. I will also talk to locally elected representatives. It is important that if voluntary mergers of police forces go ahead, they do so with the consent of local people.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will be aware of the comments made by the Culture Secretary this morning linking the Hillsborough disaster to football hooliganism. That is a disgrace. I have recently spoken to some of the families who lost loved ones at Hillsborough. They are deeply distressed by that and angry about what has happened. How can they have trust in the Government to see through the proper release of the Hillsborough files, given that that is the view held in high parts of Government? As the Home Secretary leads on the matter, will she meet urgently with members of the families and the Culture Secretary to discuss the issue?
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
T6. In my constituency, Kingswood, under the previous Government, the local police station on the high street was bulldozed to make way for flats. Many of my constituents are rightly extremely concerned about that. What steps will the Minister take to ensure a more effective local policing presence in the future?
Nick Herbert
I will happily meet my hon. Friend to discuss that. Local people want to see an available and visible police presence. That does not necessarily mean old buildings, but it means the police using innovative ways to ensure that they have a presence in the community—for instance, by sharing community facilities.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
T8. A cut of 25% in police funding would be devastating for public confidence. What the Minister said before would require large reductions in the number of police officers, community support officers and civilian staff. Those reductions could come about only through large up-front payments in pension, redundancy and other costs. What assessment has the Minister made of the size of those costs, and how on earth will they be paid for?
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
At a time when the Government are looking to police forces to save money, will the Minister tell the House how much it will cost to elect and fund the proposed directly elected police commissioners?
Nick Herbert
We will be making further announcements in due course about our policy of replacing bureaucratic accountability with direct accountability through directly elected individuals.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend recall that nearly 10 years into the life of the previous Government, it suddenly emerged by chance that foreign prisoners were not being considered for deportation when they should have been, and that there was a backlog of 400,000 asylum cases and other cases owing to incompetence? Will he ensure that there is a culture of openness, transparency and efficiency in the Home Office right from the start of this Government?