Commons Chamber

Wednesday 14th May 2025

(began 7 months, 1 week ago)

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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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Thank you for that response. Many constituents have contacted me about concerns in social media and nearly 40% of children are reporting it has a bad effect on their mental health with glaring holes in the Online Safety Act. Prime Minister confirm protection for children will not be up for negotiation in any part of the deal? the deal? I certainly share his concern for the welfare of young people online and that is why many provisions brought in since I came into office brought in since I came into office including a statement of priorities and tackling intimate image abuse and tackling intimate image abuse and getting behind the interpretation of new regulations by interpretation of new regulations by January, we are behind these and working on what will come next in terms of strengthening it.

I assure him that only harm will never be up for negotiation. for negotiation. I welcome the US-UK trade deal and the fact the Secretary of State and Prime Minister have a commitment not to put online safety on the table for negotiations. The inquiry into social media, misinformation and algorithms has heard evidence that algorithms drive the spread of that algorithms drive the spread of misinformation and he saw the consequences of that after the riots.

Can the Secretary of State confirm that as well as not watering confirm that as well as not watering down the Online Safety Act he will look to strengthen it and look at look to strengthen it and look at how to do so with allies in the US.
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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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The use of AI in radiotherapy increases productivity 20 fold but increases productivity 20 fold but the decision to stop funding for contouring is estimated to cost 500,000 extra days in waiting lists. Will the government intervene to restore the funding and save lives? I'm grateful for the question and we are investing heavily for the benefit of patients. I visited the hospital and Huddersfield and AI has been fully integrated there and I will look at the issue he receives if there are conversations to be hard but I assure you we are working for the good of patients.



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Accurate data is important, particularly in the public sector, particularly in the public sector, and we will vote on it today. How will he measure his plan productivity improvements and define productivity improvements and define success and in Fort time period?

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success and in Fort time period? I assure you we will deliver technology games across Whitehall and that starts now and we are and that starts now and we are investing heavily with the digital sector will be treated in the The sector will be treated in the The Spit -- DSIT and they will be put to

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Spit -- DSIT and they will be put to work for the benefit of citizens without delay. The government is harnessing the

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The government is harnessing the power of technology to create smarter and smaller states and we
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Lorraine Beavers Portrait Lorraine Beavers MP (Blackpool North and Fleetwood, Labour)
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with the United States. Protecting and creating British jobs, cutting tariffs and driving economic growth. We have also published a White Paper, setting out how this government will end the open borders experiment of the party opposite. Bringing net migration down, backing British workers and delivering fair British workers and delivering fair control of our borders. I know the whole house will want to mark the whole house will want to mark the 40th anniversary of the Bradford 40th anniversary of the Bradford city fire.

We remember the victims of that devastating tragedy and celebrate the strength of the community. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, in addition to my duties in this House and I shall have further such meetings later today. Thank you, Mr Speaker. 40 years of Conservative -- 14 years of Conservative cuts have stripped the environment agency of the resources environment agency of the resources and staff needed to properly deal with badly managed landfill sites, blighting communities like mine.

A landfill site in my constituency of Blackpool North and Fleetwood has been producing toxic stench is for been producing toxic stench is for more than a year now, causing nosebleeds, headaches, vomiting and breathing problems for my residence. Will the Prime Minister commit to ensure that the Environment Agency has the staff and resources to police badly managed sites like this police badly managed sites like this and across the country so they can act quickly and effectively to protect communities like mine?
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Nobody wants to see job losses. But she must be the only person left in the country who thinks the economy was booming after the last government. We have created new jobs, record investment, trade deals that, the India deal they tried for eight years and failed, we did that deal. They talked about a US deal. deal. They talked about a US deal. We tend to get a stronger relationship with the EU. The former trade minister must be the only former trade minister against all trade deals to boost our economy.

She said she is against the India deal even though it is not the same provision she put on the table. Against the US deal even though it saves thousands of jobs in car saves thousands of jobs in car manufacturing. Absurdly she said she is going to rip up the EU deal when she has not even seen what is on the page. This is a once great political party sliding into brain-dead oblivion. oblivion. I'm very happy to welcome his tiny tariff deal.

The fact is it has put us in a worse position than we were in March. He should not over egged the pudding. Let's talk about how things are getting worse now. In every month of this year, household names like Sainsbury's, Tesco, Asda and Santander have cut staff. The ONS estimated there are 100,000 fewer jobs than a year ago. That was before the jobs tax which will make things worse. Can the Prime Minister promised this House by this time next year, unemployment will be lower than it is today?

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Mr Speaker, I think she just said a tiny tariff deal. Can I suggest
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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The plans to upgrade St Helier Hospital include the delivery of a new specialist emergency care building but it has been put back by 10 years. I have talked to the trust about a way to move those plans forward but in the meantime there is a very real fear that some of the buildings on the existing estate are at risk of catastrophic failure before the decade is out. Will the government work with the local trust and the plan to adapt the existing estate to make sure the hospital can survive all the way through to the survive all the way through to the The honourable member's constituents have been badly let down by the previous government's empty promises which were never going to deliver.

We have put the new system on a sustainable financial footing. Increasing the NHS capital budget to record levels so that we can address the backlog of critical maintenance the backlog of critical maintenance and I will make sure that he gets a meeting with the relevant minister to discuss this case. to discuss this case. Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes is the renewable energy capital of England, delivering home-grown, secure energy and boosting local skills. Over 12,000 people are employed in a clean energy job in greater Lincolnshire.

But these jobs are now under threat from the new local authority, who has declared war on renewables, putting livelihoods at risk. What steps will the Prime Minister take to protect

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jobs by supporting the supply chain and delivery of renewable projects? She is a superb champion for

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She is a superb champion for energy security, driving down bills energy security, driving down bills and the good secure jobs renewable energy offers. The parties opposite our climate defeatist. Andy jobs,
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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A constituent of mine was made severely disabled after a savage attack left him with multiple amputations. Will the Prime Minister explain why pensioners like Victor, who has become severely disabled after retirement, are excluded from claiming Personal Independence Payments and are instead limited to the lesser support of an attendance allowance? Will he commit to reviewing this unfair rule? reviewing this unfair rule? And these are awful circumstances which must be extremely challenging. which must be extremely challenging.

We do have to reform the system. It isn't working and I think there is a general agreement about that but the principles have to be clear that we principles have to be clear that we protect and secure those who need that protection and security. We help those who can work into work and those who can work should do. But we have to reform the system we have got to make it better because what we have got doesn't work. Every week I meet families in Barking and Dagenham who tell me they worry about paying their bills because they are on a zero hour contract.

My constituent -- constituents want the chance to work hard on a secure job and have dignity in the workplace. As Labour plans for change and delivers the biggest uplift in worker rights in a generation, does the Prime Minister agree with me that voting against our Employment Rights Bill shows that Reform are no friends of workers in this country? workers in this country?
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None Portrait Urgent Question: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if he will make a statement on the UK’s assessment of the likelihood of genocide in Gaza
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Hamish Falconer Portrait Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Urgent Question. Urgent Question. Adrian Urgent Question. Adrian Ramsay.

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Urgent Question. Adrian Ramsay.

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Urgent Question. Adrian Ramsay. To ask the secretary of state if

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To ask the secretary of state if he will make a statement on the UK's assessment of the likelihood of genocide in Gaza.

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genocide in Gaza. Mr Speaker, yesterday alongside partners, the UK convened a meeting partners, the UK convened a meeting with the UN Security Council in response to the intolerable civilian response to the intolerable civilian suffering and humanitarian crisis in Gaza. As I told this House yesterday, Israel's denial of aid is yesterday, Israel's denial of aid is appalling. Tons of food are currently sitting, rotting at the border. Blocked from reaching people who are starving. Israeli ministers who are starving.

Israeli ministers have said Israel's decision to block aid is a pressure lever. This is cruel. It is indefensible. Overnight, yet more Palestinians have been killed in Israeli strikes. This must end. The message yesterday was clear. The world demands Israel must stop and change course immediately. With our allies, we are telling the government of Israel, lift the blockade on aid entering Gaza now. Enable the UN and all humanitarian personnel to save lives now. We need an immediate ceasefire now.

Humanitarian aid must never be used as a political tool or military used as a political tool or military tactic. The UK will not support any aid mechanism that seeks to deliver political or military objectives or put vulnerable civilians at risk. The International Court of Justice case on genocide is ongoing, Mr Speaker. We support the ICJ. We support its independence. They issued a set of provisional measures in this case and we support those measures. Israel has an obligation to implement them.

It is the UK Government's long-standing position that any formal determination as to whether genocide has taken place is a matter for the court and not the government or nonjudicial bodies. government or nonjudicial bodies. The UK is fully committed to upholding our responsibilities under domestic and international law and domestic and international law and we have at all times acted in a manner consistent with our legal obligations, including under the obligations, including under the Genocide Convention. The devastation Genocide Convention. The devastation from this conflict must end.

Our complete focus is on lifting Israeli restrictions on aid. Freeing hostages. Protecting civilians. Restoring the ceasefire. We will work urgently with our allies and partners on further pressure to make Israel change course.
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Adrian Ramsay Portrait Adrian Ramsay MP (Waveney Valley, Green Party)
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Mr Speaker, overnight the UN emergency relief coordinator Tom Fletcher warned a genocide was Fletcher warned a genocide was possible in Gaza. 20% of people are facing starvation. The entire population is facing high levels of acute food insecurity. In Gaza, there is a risk of famine. There is one primary cause. The Israeli aid blockade since March 2. The Security Council was told civilians in Gaza have again been forcibly displaced and confined into ever shrinking spaces with 80% of territory either in Israeli military zones or under displacement orders.

Israeli airstrikes on the hospital in Gaza yesterday killed 28 people. With further reports of at least 48 deaths overnight from strikes elsewhere. Can he tell us if the FCDO has made a recent assessment of its own on the risk the Israeli authorities are committing genocide? Last night the UK ambassador to the UN rightly called on Israel to lift restrictions and return to the delivery of aid in Gaza in line with humanitarian principles and international law. But this isn't enough.

Notwithstanding the government position that it is for judicial bodies to make a determination, what is the response of the Minister to the latest UN assessment that genocide is possible in Gaza? Can he confirm if the UK stands by the obligations to prevent this in the Genocide Convention? this in the Genocide Convention? Parliament needs to know if the Parliament needs to know if the assessment will lead to a shift in the UK Government's position. Why is it when the horrors increased the position stays the same? Lastly to echo the words in Tom Fletcher's briefing, will you act decisively to briefing, will you act decisively to prevent genocide and respect international humanitarian law or will you instead repeat the empty words that we did all we could?
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Hamish Falconer Portrait Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Minister. testimony of the emergency relief coordinator, the very most senior official in the entire humanitarian system in the world, last night at the UN Security Council meeting record with our allies is clearly incredibly important. I can confirm to the honourable member that we abide by international law obligations, including to the Genocide Convention and we consider all of our assessments which are ongoing, all of the relevant test and we will continue to do so. The honourable gentleman asks important questions.

Questions which have echoed in this chamber yesterday and throughout this long and painful conflict. This government has taken steps, whether it is restoring funding, suspending arms exports, working with partners in the UN and elsewhere, but clearly we are in a situation today where nobody in this House would wish to be. Nobody on these benches and I am sure nobody on the benches opposite. We need to take more action until we see the changes needed but the central changes needed but the central question, as I have told this House repeatedly, central questions, is repeatedly, central questions, is And while this is not allowed into Gaza there is nothing that can be done to get the aid of the scale and done to get the aid of the scale and in the manner necessary to say Palestinian life and it is on that point we call the Security Council and it is that point we continue to make.
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Wendy Morton Portrait Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)
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The situation in the Middle East continues to cause concern and that is why we have been clear that we have to see the return of the hostages and lasting ceasefire. There are still 58 hostages held in There are still 58 hostages held in Gaza by terrorists backed by Iran. Those still alive are being held in dreadful and appalling conditions without access to aid and medicine and the have been going through this for approaching 600 days and so they must be released as a matter of urgency.

Can the Minister did on the steps being taken to secure the release of remaining hostages? What is Britain contributing? This conflict with Tippett over long ago if they had been released by Hamas and the House must be aware they are committed to wiping out the state of Israel. What steps are being taken with international partners to deal with this threat to peace and security? We have constantly asked for a strategy so when will it come forward? Hamas can have no role in the future governance of Gaza so can we have an date on the steps the government has taken to secure this outcome and end the misery Hamas is inflicting on Gaza and the threat to Israel.

Can the Minister tell us exactly how much UK-funded aid is waiting to enter Gaza and fought the breakdown of that is? The government has known for months about the concerns about the delivery of aid to Gaza. What discussions have taken place with Israel and what practical solutions have been offered to solutions have been offered to support the delivery of aid that addresses concerns? Has the Minister been engaged in discussions with Israel and the US on alternative Israel and the US on alternative ways to get aid into Gaza? Does he have a view on this? We've been clear, while we continue to push for clear, while we continue to push for humanitarian aid and accountability we do not believe the actions we do not believe the actions constitute genocide and the case being brought by South Africa to the being brought by South Africa to the international court of justice is not helping.

not helping.
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Hamish Falconer Portrait Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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obligations to prevent genocide in Gaza arising from the order in January 2024. Has the government January 2024. Has the government taken steps to meet obligations and will be commit to banning the export of UK arms to Israel? Will the government consider sanctions on ministers and those who called for Gaza to be destroyed? Will the Gaza to be destroyed? Will the government commit to the image and installation of a Palestinian state? As was said yesterday, "If we have not done all we could to end the not done all we could to end the violence in Gaza, we should fear the judgement of generation." Does the Minister agree with me? Minister agree with me? This is lying heavily on me and every member of the team but let's not forget what the government has done, whether it is restoring funding, suspending arms exports, providing £110 million in humanitarian aid and then trying to ensure that enters or whether it is ensure that enters or whether it is working to fly medicine into Gaza, working on projects to help children in the UK, or supporting vulnerable children through UNICEF, we are children through UNICEF, we are taking steps and taking the judgement of the eye of CJ seriously judgement of the eye of CJ seriously but I cannot pretend these are acceptable and we will continue to take every step that we can to get a change, of course.

change, of course. Tomorrow is the 75th anniversary of the event that saw hundreds of thousands displaced from their homes. It still continues today and action is now required around genocide and a key step towards a two-step solution would be recognising this and that is something Israel is trying to prevent and so with the countries recognising, is now not the right time for the UK, too? time for the UK, too? time for the UK, too?
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Hamish Falconer Portrait Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend has been committed to these issues ever since he came to this place and I know before as well. The words of Tom Fletcher are important. He is the most senior member of the humanitarian committee in the world. What he said at the meeting we called yesterday is very important. We have not waited for the meeting yesterday. We have not waited for a determination of international courts to take action. Let us not forget what we have done.

Whether in relation to the agency, the arm suspension, the sanction on Israeli suspension, the sanction on Israeli settlers, the role in the United Nations Security Council, and we Nations Security Council, and we continue to take action. Mr Fletcher rightly asked for decisive action. Has our action yet been decisive? Has our action yet been decisive? Clearly it has not. Hostages remain Clearly it has not. Hostages remain detained. Palestinians continue suffering. A two state solution suffering. A two state solution feels very distant.

We have not yet had the decisive effect we would wish to see. We will continue to act until we do. until we do. As well as raping, kidnapping and killing of civilians on October 7 for its own sake, Hamas had a strategy of trying to prevent further peace deals between Israel and Arab neighbours by provoking a massive frenzied reaction to the atrocities. Does the Minister share my dismay that brutal strategy seems to be succeeding?
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None Portrait Urgent Question: To ask the Leader of the House if she will make a statement on Government compliance with the general principle set out in paragraph 9.1 of the Ministerial Code
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that she outlines. I will not rehearsed answers to the questions, but I would assure her that I will continue to engage right across both my benches and others on these questions.
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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That concludes the Urgent Question. We now move onto the next Urgent Question, I will give the Second Second question, Second question, Kirsty Second question, Kirsty Blackman.

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I would like to ask the leader of the she will make a statement on Government compliance with the general principles set out in paragraph 9.10 the ministerial code.

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paragraph 9.10 the ministerial code. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ministerial code is clear. When Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance to Parliament. the first instance to Parliament. This is an important principle by which this Government stands. Already, this session, there have Already, this session, there have been 146 oral statements in just 133 been 146 oral statements in just 133 sitting days. More than one per day. And more than the previous Government made in the entirety of their last session.

This has included six important statements from the Prime Minister, more than from the Prime Minister, more than 20 from the Foreign Office, and on very important issues like today's statement on effective blood. I am the Government take our obligations to Parliament very seriously and the to Parliament very seriously and the Prime Minister and I remind Cabinet colleagues of this regularly. There are also other ways the Government keeps the House of dated, including through written Ministerial statements of which there have been 633 so far this session, responses and appearances at select committees, thousands of responses to parliamentary questions.

And while the Government remains committed to making the most important announcements on the floor of the House, we do need to balance this with other demands on the House as time, particularly where there is great interest in other business of the day. On occasion, developments and enhancements will happen when the House is not sitting, or image later in the sitting day. That is why it is not always possible to make every announcement in the House first, but it is also important that members have sufficient time to read and digest any relevant document and get advanced notice to be able to, effectively, question the Minister effectively, question the Minister and seek any answers.

However, as you know, I take this aspect of the ministerial code incredibly seriously, and I will continue to work with Mr Speaker and colleagues across the House to ensure that across the House to ensure that Parliament is respected, members are informed, the Government is effectively scrutinised, and effectively scrutinised, and announcements are made to this House first.
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Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)
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Over recent times we have seen an increasing trend of Government failing to make statements to the House first, despite there being no barrier to them doing so. Thursday last week was a mess with the Minister of State business entry trying to withdraw the statement on the UK US trade agreement, despite members waiting here for seven hours for the statement to materialise. The decision to acknowledge NHS in was reversed on 13 March and atrial of media beforehand and on Wednesday, 4 March and Urgent Question was granted regarding an announcement that had been made the day before on that system nimble farming initiative being cancelled and on March 6 consultation on North Sea energy that announced the day before was relayed to the House in a statement.

In February, the Government change refugee citizenship rules and still has not informed the House. On Monday this week, the Prime Minister announced the contents of the immigration white paper via a speech that mirrored Enoch Powell, despite Parliament sitting later that day. This is a consistent pattern of behaviour by the Government and IM concerned that there is little point concerned that there is little point in having a ministerial code if the Government can't ignore one of the key principles with no stanchion and key principles with no stanchion and apparently no quantum basis.

The Government are nearly 1 year into their term, and so disorganisation or a lack of familiarity with the rules can surely no longer be cited as reasons for consistent breaches as reasons for consistent breaches of code. I believe the UK Government should adhere to the principles set out in the ministerial code and the leader of must urgently set out how leader of must urgently set out how she intends to improve the situation and ensure adherence happens.
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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Well, can I thank her for raising this Urgent Question? And I welcome the opportunity to emphasise the importance that I do take these matters with. We have made a number of very big announcements to the House, often responding to world events in real-time. I also recognise, and I hope you will respect this, that there are judgements to be made and there is a balance to be struck at times, and I do this with the best interests of the House in mind.

There have been many times, she has not mentioned those, in this parliamentary session where statements have been made to this House long before the media or anybody else was aware of them. For example, on prison capacity. The increase of defence spending to 2 1/2%. The response to the Parliamentary ombudsman report in the state pension age and many others. And, actually, Madam Deputy Speaker, an many of those occasions, the criticism that I received was that members did not have enough time to properly consider the details of those before having the opportunity to question the opportunity to question the Minister.

On the immigration white paper, I would just say with that in mind, hardcopies of the white paper, which is a very lengthy, detailed document, were made available in the table office at, were made available in the table office at 9:30 AM that morning to allow members ample time to read and consider that for questioning for the Home Secretary on the floor of the House in a session that lasted one hour and 25 minutes. She raises the US trade deal as well. Last Thursday. And look, I think we can all recognise that it not happen exactly as we would have liked it.

Because international events are often outside of our control. And on this occasion and on other occasions, those international events do not take account of UK parliamentary sitting hours and our sort of timing. The trade minister made an oral statement to the House as sooner he was able to do so. And I was trying to get the balance right there between that statement being made, when the maximum number of members were here, versus a statement then not being made for several days, otherwise, because it was a Thursday, as the House was arriving.

We are doing a lot. We are getting on with delivering a huge amount of issues and policies. These trade deals, which are unprecedented, in relation to other countries, the US trade deal, delivering lower tariffs on steel and car manufacturing, absolutely critical. The India trade deal delivering for Scottish distilleries and Scotland as well. In trying to do everything all the time, we are trying to get that balance right, but I do want to just emphasise my commitment to making sure that when announcements can be made in this House, they absolutely are.



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Shadow Leader of the House. I am very grateful to the

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I am very grateful to the honourable lady for raising this Urgent Question. As she has highlighted, there is a consistent pattern of failure to report first to this House as required in the ministerial code. She has rightly drawn attention to the seems that we drawn attention to the seems that we had in relation to the trade minister required to deliver a statement, then having to hear that following Monday and trying to give the same statement rebuked by the
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Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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the same statement rebuked by the Speaker for not knowing the difference and of course we had back in October we had the embarrassing site for the Government of the Chancellor announcing intended changes to the government's fiscal rules to the media before informing Parliament and having to be publicly rebuked by Mr Speaker. For doing so. Since then, she has mentioned a number of cases. I would highlight that the Secretary of State's indication announcing tuition fees to the press before Parliament in November, deputy minister announcing planning reforms before the final UPFs update was publicly available.

And MOD leak on the global combat And MOD leak on the global combat The ministerial code for which the government took great credit makes very plain what the rules are. Doesn't say that judgements are to be made. It says the first announcement must be made to Parliament with the most important announcements of government policy are made. Does anyone seriously think that an announcement on trade wouldn't be of first importance to this House, or on planning or tuition fees or the Global Combat Air Programme? Every single one of those would be vital.

Is not just a matter of ministerial accountability. These decisions are made in breach of the Nolan made in breach of the Nolan principles of openness and requirement for accountability. They are made in breach of Labour's own are made in breach of Labour's own manifesto to restore confidence in government. The question is this : government. The question is this : will the right honourable lady encourage the independent adviser to encourage the independent adviser to make an enquiry? Was she look to the make an enquiry? Was she look to the cabinet secretary to the same with civil servants? And will she look to the Deputy Speaker?
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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I would gently remind the honourable gentleman that the ministerial code does say when the house in -- is in session. Announcements will be made to this house first. Those announcements can be made via written ministerial statement and other things as well. That is the balance to be struck and we try to do that in the best interest of the House. I'm sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. He describes this as a business question and go but I'm going to give him a bingo because I'm not going to take a lecture from the honourable gentleman on these matters.

This government has done twice as many oral statements in the same number of sitting days as his government did. We are ensuring there is a proper time to scrutinise government bills, something they did not do. We are answering significantly more written parliamentary questions than his government ever did. And his government, I have to remind the house at this stage, illegally provoked Parliament when they provoked Parliament when they couldn't get their own way. Something he went out and defended Something he went out and defended to his own constituents.

They had a Prime Minister who was found of misleading this has, something he misleading this has, something he also defended. And when an MP broke the standards rules, they tried to the standards rules, they tried to change them. This government respects Parliament, we stand up for the rights of Parliament. His the rights of Parliament. His government absolutely traduce them. Well the Minister agree that there is a slight irony in the SNP raising this? But of course it is also vital that important announcements should be made in this house first in these key areas of policy? This includes most recently on the vital trade deal we have secured with India which is of such importance to the Scottish economy.
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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All of us in this chamber were elected to represent our constituents and to put the interests of the country first. In order to do that, we must be able to scrutinise the government's plans in the government's policies. The best way to do that is in this chamber way to do that is in this chamber and as soon as possible, so Sue -- so we are disappointed it is being handled in this way and we also know handled in this way and we also know it isn't the first time.

The shadow leader has mentioned various examples of this and I would like to add some more. Take the NHS, for example, where the government has made key decisions without any statement to the chamber. Decisions on social care, cutting integrated on social care, cutting integrated care board budgets and scrapping nearly half of NHS targets. The nearly half of NHS targets. The question has to be why is the government so worried about bringing these issues to the floor first? Can I thank her for that question.

I have to disagree with her analysis there are. The Secretary of State for Health and his department, they have made eight announcements to the house so far in this session, all of which have been taken by the Secretary of State for Health himself and they have lasted a long time as well. His department have been answering many written parliamentary questions, laying down WMSs. The prime minister has made statements himself to this House. Twice already in this session. Far outstripping his predecessor.

We are accountable. Of course, we can always do better and improve and that is what we seek to do. Because we are so busy as a government we are so busy as a government getting on delivering the change that people have voted for, we are doing our best to inform the House of it. of it.
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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raise this issue in her parliamentary career, but it does appear that whoever is on those benches forgets conveniently everything that they said when they were on these benches. The Leader will recall a former Labour Shadow Leader of the House. They said that Parliament must be told first they are not irrelevant. That is a warning to the current Labour government. Is the government experiencing a case of acute amnesia or do they believe that it is now their turn to treat members of this house with contempt?

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I disagree with his analysis there. I have made absolutely clear this government has made 145 statements in 133 sitting days. That statements in 133 sitting days. That is more than one a day. The vast majority of those statements have majority of those statements have been made by Secretary of State. -- Secretaries of state. It's not Secretaries of state. It's not something we saw under the previous comment. And did, from many, many months, I and others were calling for the Foreign Secretary to come for the Foreign Secretary to come and announce questions of the house, something that the previous government blocked from happening, government blocked from happening, because it was in the other place.

We have answered -- we have laid We have answered -- we have laid written statements and answered thousands more Parliamentary
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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I think it would be fair to say that this is not the first government to have disregarded this particular provision of the ministerial code. Can I put this to the Leader of the House? If the charge is that the government for its own calculated and tactical advantage has breached the ministerial code announcing something outside this chamber, surely the person determining that breach has occurred cannot be the leader of that government? Isn't it time to look again at the recommendations made by among others the committee on standards in public life, of which I was once a member, that the decision maker as to whether the ministerial code is breached, should be the independent adviser on ministerial interests and not the Prime Minister?

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You will know that the independent adviser on the independent adviser on the ministerial code appointed by the previous government was reappointed by this government, and their powers by this government, and their powers strengthened so they can initiate enquiries. Those enquiries don't need to be initiated by the Prime need to be initiated by the Prime Minister. We are raising standards when it comes to members of Parliament, when it comes to ministers as well. We are holding ourselves accountable to those much higher standards than actually happened under the previous happened under the previous government.

I would just like to reiterate for the house that the
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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I was here on Thursday, actually the responding shadow minister for the debate which was actually pulled forward because of the delay in the statement when it came to the trade deal. We were waiting almost one hour for that gap. Can you confirm there was no pressure from Donald Trump to make sure that was made because it is repeatedly when the House is suiting all day on Thursday, in fact many members had to change their travel plans or change the way their meetings were happening to respond to the debates because it was changed, purely for a press conference to happen first for it came to this chamber, so she can

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read rule out the pressure from the Prime Minister or Donald Trump on this occasion? Absolutely can rule that out. As

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Absolutely can rule that out. As I said earlier, the emerging I said earlier, the emerging agreement on a very important US trade deal, UK US trade deal, was trade deal, UK US trade deal, was emerging. Has been very fast-moving. Those things were changing, even indeed throughout that and the timing. The announcement itself, the timing. The announcement itself, the agreement itself is not actually agreed until the announcement itself agreed until the announcement itself was made and we were trying to balance that throughout the day which is why it was made clear to the House earlier in the day that the House earlier in the day that there would be a statement that it was able to happen and the trade minister came to this House as soon as possible and actually we were
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Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)
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That concludes the Urgent Question, and we will now move on to give their house a few moments to give their house a few moments to settle. Nick Thomas Simpson.

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Thank you. I am grateful to the opportunity on the government's work to respond to the recommendations made in the effective blood inquiries on 20 May, 2024. On that day, the then Prime Minister issued an apology on behalf of the state an apology on behalf of the state for the devastating impact for the use of infected blood and infected products having on-campus lives, an apology that was issued by the current Prime Minister then on the opposition bench.

I once again reiterate that apology reiterate that apology wholeheartedly today. No member in this House will be in any doubt of this House will be in any doubt of the harm resulting from this. The Government is for that we must Government is for that we must listen to the community and the inquiry and make tangible changes to inquiry and make tangible changes to the way our institutions conduct themselves. However, as the inquiries were made clear, and inquiries were made clear, and apology is only meaningful if it is accompanied by action.

I am here today to settle the actions we are taking respond to the inquiries recommendations. I would also like to acknowledge that last week the inquiry held further hearings about the timeliness and adequacy of the government's response on compensation. I intended to give evidence along with members of the community impacted by this scandal and I encourage all members to listen to the incredibly moving testimony of those impacted. The inquiry has centred their intention to publish a further report and the Government remains committed to cooperate with the inquiry and act on its recommendations.

On 17 December act on its recommendations. On 17 December 2024, the Government published its initial response to the inquiries recommendations. I laden accompanying written statement where I committed to come before the House with a comprehensive update on our response to each of the inquiries recommendations we have heard here and the inquiries are bought. The statement fulfils that commitment and I am grateful for the engagement of all members across the House and pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the programs today.

I would like to, again, thank Sir Brian and his team. The recommendations he made wide- ranging, well considered and detailed. The covenant has worked closely with the devolved Governments to make progress, implementing those recommendations, which we hope will lead to meaningful change. I am grateful to the ministerial colleagues for their cooperation, in particular my honourable friend in the Department for health and. The Parliamentary for public health prevention for her leadership on the recommendations for which her department is responsible.

I would also like to thank the health Ministers in the devolved Governments, the Minister for Public health and Jenny in Scotland, Jeremy miles in Wales, the Cabinet secretary of Health and Social Care Committee and the Minister of health Mike Nesbitt in Northern Ireland. Their engagement has been invaluable in ensuring how this unified and approach as possible across the United Kingdom and the Government will continue to engage closely with the Government on the support for advocacy charities and implementation in relation to the NHS.

I recognise that for many communities the Government actions are coming after decades in the past. And there is nothing that could quite damage the inaction by multiple previous Governments and it is not my intention for this statement to diminish that. My priority now to ensure that scandals such as infected and many others cannot happen again. And while I turn now to the recommendations in this House, alongside this statement I have published an accompanying pavement on guv.uk setting out in detail the Government response to each of the recommendations.

I will place a copy in the libraries of the House. Equally, I am firm in the importance of these recommendations to be affected by the inquiry and writing today to community representatives to inform them of the publication response. The UK and devolved Governments have accepted the inquiries recommendations and implementation is away across the Government arms bodies and healthcare settings. Where recommendations are accepted in principle we have sought to explain rationale for doing so, balancing agreement of the spirit of the implementation and some are subject I have noted some of the recommendations that have drawn attention across the house in previous debates so will take a moment to touch on those.

Firstly, on compensation. I'm grateful to those who attended previous debates on this in the house and indeed many are here today. The Infected Blood Compensation Authority delivered on the government's commitment to provide the first full compensation payments by the end of last year. It publishes its data regarding compensation on a monthly basis. As of 6 May, these payments totalled over 4 million. I'm also pleased to announce today that the interim chairs who developed fatal work to inform the design of the position scheme and has overseen delivery of the scheme to this point will continue in that role of interim chair for a further 15 months.

Another recommendation that has been of particular interest to Honourable and right Honourable members is recommendation number 10 regarding funding for advocacy services. And please that my Honourable friend wrote to charities confirming that £500,000 with the funding has been made available for this financial year to ensure that the vital work these charities do in relation to to patient advocacy assisting. The government also recognises the importance of recommendation five on ending the defence of culture in Civil Service.

It's imperative we get this right so the public can put their trust in institutions, which have let down does not -- not just the infected community but others. The per ministers committed to legislation on a duty of candour and has confirmed that duty will apply to public authorities and public servants and include criminal sanctions. We are consulting on this issue and working to draft the best, most effective version of Hillsborough law as part of wider efforts to improve public services. In conclusion, the enquiry's final recommendation relates to giving effect their accommodations it's effect their accommodations it's made.

I am only two away. A lot more needs to be done and as I made clear to the enquiry in my evidence last week, I am open to considering how we can improve the government's actions to ensure we deliver justice for victims in this devastating scandal. As progress continues to be made, my colleagues and I will report on the recommendations where we are responsible. Were committed to transparency and accountability and we will publish the government's progress via publicly accessible dashboard in due course which will be regularly updated as progress is made.

The victims of this scandal have suffered immeasurably. I pay tribute to the infected blood committee once again. I pay tribute to their courage, perseverance and determination to demand justice for the wrongs that have been done to the. I hope this update provides them with some reassurance that we are learning and acting on the mistakes of the past and where there is more to do, this government will do it. I commend this statement to the house. the house.
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Mike Wood Portrait Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)
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On 21 May last year, my right honourable friend stood at the dispatch box and made clear his determination to act on the enquiry's report. I pay tribute to his work and thank him for the advice and support he has given to me in the shadow cabinet office team on this issue since the election. I'm pleased that the Paymaster general picked up from where his predecessor left off. As I have said before, both sides of the house speak as one on this issue.

Sadly, nothing that we or the government can do will undo the terrible damage caused by this kind of. No amount of money will bring back those who have been lost. No amount of lessons learned can make up for the suffering of those who contracted serious illnesses because of contaminated blood. But we would not only be failing in our duty but also failing all of those who have died and all of those who continue to live with life changing conditions if we do not take up this battle on their behalf.

And to do this, we must directly address the profound distress, anger and fear that is being expressed by victims and their families at the pace of the full compensation scheme's rollout. Victims of -- victims have referred me to the weight as torture and disgraceful -- wait. The gravity of those concerns has been underscored. Whilst we support this decision, we need to make sure it does not delay proper compensation for those who have already lost so much.

We know that with every week and month that passes, more infected and affected individuals will sadly by -- die before receiving the final compensation. This is the human cost of delay. Whilst the competition authority was set up to be independent of government and operational matters, I ask the Minister whether he is content with the current pace of delivery? If not, what he and the government are doing to help David Foley and his team to speed up payouts to dying victims? Turning to other recommendations, on recommendation six on monitoring liver damage for people who are infected with hepatitis C, could I ask the Paymaster general what progress has been made on this recommendation within the National Health Service? And on recommendation eight, finding the undiagnosed, what action has been taken to ensure that patients who had transfusions between 1996 are offered a blood test for hepatitis C? Can the Paymaster General update the house on how many such tests have so far been carried out, and what assessment he has made of the additional infected and affected patients who may now be eligible for compensation? The journey to rebuild trust with victims and their families will be long and requires not only words of apology and commitment but crucially demonstrable action that proves that demonstrable action that proves that the government and indeed this house the government and indeed this house are listening and responding.

The acknowledgement that the current compensation scheme has not yet won the trust and confidence of the the trust and confidence of the community is a start. I hope the government will continue to take these concerns seriously to put in place robust changes that are place robust changes that are necessary and we will support them and that work. and that work.
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Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you very much. I'd like to thank the Paymaster General for his statement. The infected blood scandal is a harrowing story. These people have been filled not only by medical professionals in the NHS who should have been responsible for the safety of the treatment and by a series of governments who should have prevented such horror from ever taking place. As the Minister knows, I welcome the introduction of the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme. The government was right to introduce the scheme at the start of Parliament and I'm glad to hear the Minister say the affected but in position authority are scaling up the operation.

However, we are alarmed that the right of the scheme has been far too slow, leaving victims without justice they deserve. Victims have been waiting for decades for recognition of the suffering they endured. So far, only 506 people have received payment from the authority. Compensation payout are not due to conclude until 2029. This would rely on a rapid increase in the current rate of payments. We are deeply concerned by the speed with which victims are receiving the compensation. To echo the words of Brian Langstaff, people infected and affected do not have time on their side.

To that end and to provide confidence to victims and their families, I ask the Minister to clarify what deadline he has for the implementation of the enquiry's recommendations. What steps is he taking to increase the speed with which payments are being made question can he confirm when all victims can expect to receive their long overdue compensation? Also, what more can be done to help those who need to provide proof of infection whether medical records have been destroyed? -- were their medical records have been destroyed.

Supporting the work of these vital Supporting the work of these vital organisations and engaging with them to understand exactly the needs of to understand exactly the needs of And I am glad to hear the public's And I am glad to hear the public's sentiments with regards to section 5 sentiments with regards to section 5 but I ask when the Government will bring proposals to this effect forward so that such a scandal is never repeated and can you clarify why there has been a delay given the why there has been a delay given the relevant run legislation was meant to be published initially in April.

Thank you. Thank you.
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Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)
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First of all, with regard to the current position for approximate just over 96 million has been paid and they have invited 677 claimant to begin process, just to be clear the date of 2029, it is correct to say that there is what I regard as backstop dates, 2027 for the infected and 2029 for the affected and that is what they are, backstop. They are not the targets. The target is to make these payments as soon as possible.

The honourable lady also raises evidence which I dealt with in response to my honourable friend, the kind of situation to which the the kind of situation to which the honourable lady has referred you have medical evidence that for whatever reason has been destroyed is precisely the kind of situation is precisely the kind of situation we would expect them to take a sympathetic approach on the issue of the duty of candour that Government remains committed to bringing about remains committed to bringing about the duty of candour legislation.

It is important that we get it right is important that we get it right and that we ensure the legislation will actually achieve shared objectives that I am sure the whole objectives that I am sure the whole house would have, and by trying to prevent these types of scandals from happening again we have to ensure happening again we have to ensure there are no unintended consequences, just to get that right we are taking the more time. we are taking the more time.
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Tessa Munt Portrait Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)
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The issue he raises about the special category mechanism is one I was asked about at the enquiry last week. Assisted with conditions that qualified under specialised category mechanism. I said last week I would look if there were particular issues, which I think is what he is identifying in terms of his constituent. As I said last week, the test I used is ensuring it doesn't cause further delay.

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Final question.

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I'm grateful for the Minister's statement but I would also like to identify that gaping hole of identify that gaping hole of compensation scheme in relation to compensation scheme in relation to the special category mechanism. I would like to point out that some of my constituents are in very poor my constituents are in very poor health and therefore their life may well be limited timewise. They are well be limited timewise. They are yet to receive compensation. They yet to receive compensation.

They will receive less compensation than someone who is in the stage I and is relatively healthy. The compensation relatively healthy. The compensation scheme has said that the infected scheme has said that the infected should be compensated, that the Infected Blood Inquiry said the same thing in the government's own expert group said it in August in the group said it in August in the government's own expert group said it in August 2024. They also said it in August 2024. They also said they must have compensation.

I invite the Paymaster General to meet with me. It would have to be online. And with my infected constituents to explain. This gentleman is so ill and suffering dreadfully and he seems to have been excluded from a fair compensation. Thank you. fair compensation. Thank you.
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Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)
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I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving me notice of the point of order. The right honourable member has put the point on the record and I'm not persuaded of anything Parliamentary with regard to the debate. I would remind members that good patients should be the characteristics of Parliamentary debate and I encourage all members

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to act with courtesy. I have given prior notice about

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I have given prior notice about my point of order to the Office of my point of order to the Office of the Speaker. I see guidance to hold the government to account. Yesterday the government to account. Yesterday I intended to table a question about I intended to table a question about Bomber plane and was blocked. I received the following response. The government has blocked questions on the use of military bases. The the use of military bases.

The reason was given as an answer to a similar question tabled by the right honourable member on October 4 with honourable member on October 4 with the Minister responding on October the Minister responding on October 4. Since then, six questions have been tabled regarding to the activities during this time. Four without obstruction and they all received timely answers from the received timely answers from the Minister. Paul would have been ruled out of order and blocked but they were allowed to be tabled.

Given the importance of transparency and importance of transparency and Parliamentary scrutiny, particularly with matters of defence, addresses matters of concern and this should matters of concern and this should not be taken on an ad hoc basis to impede the ability of parliamentarians to scrutinise government decisions. And so can you government decisions. And so can you advise if it is in order for the advise if it is in order for the office to decide to block questions in this way and the recourse members in this way and the recourse members have when there is an attempt to debate policy and activity? debate policy and activity?
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None Portrait Ten Minute Rule Motion: Equitable Life Policyholders (Compensation)
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Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
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Presentation of Bill. Victims of Rape and Serious

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Victims of Rape and Serious Sexual Offences. Second reading, what day?

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Second reading, what day? July 11. Presentation of Bill,

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Carla Denyer. Energy and Employment Rights

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Bill. Second reading, what day? July 4, what day?

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July 4, what day? July 4, 2025. We now move to the

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July 4, 2025. We now move to the Ten Minute Rule motion.

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Ten Minute Rule motion. I beg to move that leaf be given to bring a bill to make provision on to bring a bill to make provision on compensation for policyholders for Equitable Life who were affected. Most members of the House will know that I have been campaigning for the last 15 years for proper compensation for Equitable Life policyholders who lost out because of government and regulation. As my honourable friend raised, this has always been across the party for justice.

Representatives support the proposed bill and for those who may not be familiar with the sale, this has been over 25 years. Equitable Life was the gold standard and founded in 1762, the oldest insurer and widely respected and considered a safe place to invest your pension. In the 1990s, it turned out the society was effectively run as a Ponzi scheme with policies funded through contributions and it eventually collapsed in 2000 following a court case which led to the inescapable conclusion the society did not have enough money to cover commit.

The question inevitably rose as to how the collapse of one of the biggest and apparently safest companies could possibly have happened. Inquires were set up with limited remix. It was not until the Parliamentary ombudsman undertook a detailed investigation of four years that we got to the bottom of what happened. While the society was mismanaged, While the society was mismanaged, the report of 2800 pages which is recommended reading for colleagues and published in 2000 it, it concluded had been a decade of maladministration by government departments and regulators who had the job of overseeing the society in the first place and specifically the ombudsman concluded that it resulted in the true financial position of the society being concealed and misrepresented.

The ombudsman went on to say the Prudential regulation failed comprehensively and she said it was not a system failure but a failure of the system of regulation that Parliament had. And that was the most serious maladministration. It's important to recognise it led to failure which government departments and agencies were responsible for. The ombudsman was clear the regulators were responsible for scrutinising the responsible for scrutinising the financial returns and verifying the position and they failed to do this to an acceptable standard.

As a result, the society was able to continue to do this and they had no idea of how the replacing hard earned savings. The ombudsman made five findings of injustice which were suffered because of the maladministration. In the redress, the ombudsman and government had put those people who suffered a relative loss back into the position they would have had if it had not occurred. In 2010, the findings were formally accepted and there was an apology to the more than 1 million people affected.

He accepted the financial losses that the policyholder suffered amounted to £4.3 million and he subsequently revised it down to £4.1 billion and then it was said that only £1.5 billion bid available, citing the public finances at the time. Personally, I think that where the state has accepted responsibility for failure and accepted how much was lost because of it, it should provide full composition. It is the moral and correct thing to do and taking the general approach in relation to contamination of the post office scams.

There are serious issues agreeing the individual amounts for the individual cases. The proposed bill is not about the £2.6 billion of compensation which is still owed to those affected by the scandal but the £1.5 billion which has been allocated. Because from public information Parliamentary questions, freedom of information request, it appears £190 million is said to be kept by the Treasury and will not reach the people to which it is ordered. When the compensation scheme was announced in 2010, the government decided to give 100% compensation to 30 recipients, an annual payment for life with the money allocated for that purpose.

It was held back by the Treasury. It was encased as individuals live longer than individuals live longer than expected. The money was allocated to 890,000 people from one of payment giving them 22.4% of the acknowledged losses. More than 100,000 people of that group were in the trust, contributing to an underspend of their allocation. In addition, data shows the angle compensation payments have been running significantly below forecast, by some £54 million from the most recent figures I have seen.

That means the £100 billion contingency reserve will never reach them and in total around £180 million, over 10% of the money allocated to, set for all losses is set to be kept by the Treasury unless something is done. The bill I propose would require the Treasury to meet the full value of the £1.5 million and give compensation to those affected. In doing so, it would prioritise around 10,000 of the most elderly and those who were in my view unfairly excluded because they had booked an annuity prior to September 1992.

I've never understood why. The reality is they suffered the same consequences as others with reduced pension payments because of the failure of the regulation and through campaigning by members of this House, members of the action group, the government announced a payment to that cohort in 2014 which was welcome, as far as it went. However, they should be treated the same as the other annuities. In doing so, it would cost around £108 million after receiving their payments. This is the most elderly and vulnerable policyholders and those still alive are aged 80-90.

Many will be veterans who served their country and risk their lives for this country and many others worked in country and many others worked in They should be treated fairly. The government and the Treasury know who they are and where they live. As you can imagine, the people who saved responsibly for their retirement find it difficult to understand why they have not had full Redress, when the state has accepted responsibility for the failure that led to their financial losses, which have been calculated and accepted by the state.

In the absence of full Redress, it must be right that the money that has been allocated for compensation reaches those affected. In doing so, it must also surely be right that we prioritise the most elderly and vulnerable. This is what I -- the bill I propose seeks to do. It is supported by MPs from six political parties in this House and I'm sure many other colleagues.

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The question is the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of that bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the

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bill? Christine Jardine, Fabian Hamilton, Desmond Swayne, Sian Berry, Jim Shannon, Stephen Flynn, Berry, Jim Shannon, Stephen Flynn,

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Bit Bit of Bit of a Bit of a wobble, Bit of a wobble, let's Bit of a wobble, let's keep Bit of a wobble, let's keep it

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Bit of a wobble, let's keep it Equitable Life policyholders Compensation Bill. Second Reading what day? Friday,

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4 July 2025. We now go to the afternoons

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We now go to the afternoons business. The clerk will proceed to read the orders of the day. Great British Energy bill, Consideration of Lords Message

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messages. Will begin with a government

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Will begin with a government motion to agree with Lords Amendment to B, which we will consider with
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Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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another amendment. I call the Minister to move.

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I beg to move the Lords Amendment

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I beg to move the Lords Amendment Can I begin by thanking all members of both houses for their continued scrutiny of this bill and can I scrutiny of this bill and can I extend my thanks to my noble friend the Minister for energy security, Lord Hunt, for his expertise and Lord Hunt, for his expertise and resilience in reaching a resolution resilience in reaching a resolution we are here today to discuss. The amendment was added to the Great British Energy bill during the previous Consideration of Commons previous Consideration of Commons Amendmentss and the amendment to pass the amendment was in the other pass the amendment was in the other place.

Great British Energy will accelerate clean power deployment, creating jobs, boosting energy independence and ensuring that UK independence and ensuring that UK bill payers, taxpayers reap the benefits of home-grown energy. We recognise the concern across Parliament and from the public on this issue. Particularly how Great British Energy will tackle forced labour in its supply chains. Government has consistently stated that it wholeheartedly agrees with the concern and the importance of tackling forced labour in supply chains wherever we find it. That's why we tabled an amendment to B.

The latest move in the government work to tackle the issue of forced labour while we progress towards becoming a global leader in clean energy. We expect all UK businesses to do everything in their power to move any instances of forced labour from their supply chains. Great British Energy will be no different but in fact we have stated many times already that we expected to be a sector leader on this matter. Amendment to B makes it clear that Great British Energy is committed to adopting measures so it can take the appropriate steps to act on any evidence of forced labour in its supply chains as we would expect from any responsible company.



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I'm sure we can rely on the Minister to ensure that no solar panels are installed on British panels are installed on British farms that are made with slave labour by the Chinese government. labour by the Chinese government.

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labour by the Chinese government. I'm sure he can assure us on that? In Great British Energy we have committed they will not invest in any supply chains that involve any any supply chains that involve any evidence of forced labour and the measures deliver that. There is a measures deliver that. There is a wider question about forced labour in broader supply chains over which Great British Energy will not have responsibility and outline a number of actions we see in tackling that across the economy.

A few weeks ago across the economy. A few weeks ago I hosted the first cross government meeting with colleagues from the Home Office, Foreign Office and the Department for Business and Trade to Department for Business and Trade to look at how we can tighten the regulations much more. What the honourable gentleman rightly says is honourable gentleman rightly says is what we want to see right across the economy.

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I thank the Minister for giving way, he is giving an important speech on an interim -- important topic. Part of the importance of GB Energy as we have greater control

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over the supply chains and whether slave labour is being used? He is absolutely right. We want

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He is absolutely right. We want Great British Energy to be a sector leader, it must meet all of the standards we expect from every other standards we expect from every other country, we want to go further and look at what is possible in this look at what is possible in this space. There is another question he raises about the importance Great raises about the importance Great British Energy has in delivering investments around the supply chain so we are not just building clean power for energy security in this power for energy security in this country but delivering good, industrial jobs as a result as well.

This is what the bill is about. This is what the bill is about. Great British Energy will striving to be a leading example of best to be a leading example of best practice, across corporate due diligence, setting a benchmark for ethical standards supply chain management. Including human rights considerations are integrated into corporate policies of procurement, supply and conduct, drawing expertise from Sheffield Hallam University. This will strengthen that the British Government and Great British Energy are committed to supply chains free from forced labour.

labour.
15:54
Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie MP (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Conservative)
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The question is this House agrees with the Lords in the amendment.

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On 25 March this year, the last time we debated amendments to the time we debated amendments to the Great British energy bill, the Great British energy bill, the Minister assured us that the mechanisms were adequate, the Procurement Bill would provide Procurement Bill would provide adequate protections to protect against technology that could have been slave labour being used in the UK. -- Identify. Then we had the incredible sight of Labour MPs going incredible sight of Labour MPs going through the lobbies being whipped to vote against the amendment which would have prevented Great British would have prevented Great British Energy from investing in supply chains.

The offshoring of emissions, chains. The offshoring of emissions, manufacturing base, skilled jobs, that is understood and acknowledged that is understood and acknowledged to be the result of Labour's energy policy. On that day we saw the offshoring of labour's moral compass, their ideological obsession to achieve the unachievable, clean power 2030 at any price and at any cost, delivered through solar panels made with slave labour and coal power in the People's Republic of China. Following that, screeching U-turn, weeks after having whipped their own MPs, the government conceded on what we knew to be the case at the time, that the mechanism cited by the Minister were not up to the job.

Yet we sincerely welcome the acknowledgement that the UK must take a principled stance. While the procurement act and Modern Slavery Act were groundbreaking when produced, it is the case that more needs to be done today to prevent goods tainted by slavery from entering UK supply chains.

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You will know that heaven rejoices when a sinner repented. rejoices when a sinner repented. rejoices when a sinner repented. Does he agree that the hope that the cross-party consensus on the cross-party consensus on the pernicious nurse of modern slavery is restored, so as a House we can face it whenever and wherever it manifests itself?

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manifests itself? I agree with the sentiments of my honourable friend. He is right, the honourable friend. He is right, the honourable friend. He is right, the cross-party consensus in this House over the last decade also on the pernicious nature of modern slavery and the work we must do together to and the work we must do together to drive it out of supply chains, which can be contributing or investing in the UK is something we all believe the UK is something we all believe we have to achieve.

The government have now acknowledged the mechanisms have now acknowledged the mechanisms Were not up to the job. I hope we can revert to the cross-party working on this incredibly important issue. The transition must be just. We have said it before and the Minister has said it many times. There is no justice where there is slave labour in supply chains. We are glad the government has listened to members across the House and in both houses. There is a serious question, what does this mean for the clean power 2030 mission? If the route to decarbonisation relies on important technology made with slave labour from China, surely there should be a rethink of whether or not this mission is conducive to good policy.

We are pleased that the honourable gentleman and the Minister has roared back from the initial position. -- Rolled back. While we welcome the government's change of heart, it would be remiss of me not to reiterate for the record that we as opposition remain opposed to the creation of Great British Energy entirely. It is a company that is not great, not British and not produce any energy. While the Minister often cites my constituency in Aberdeenshire in these debates due to the location of GB Energy's headquarters, can I say that people and businesses in the north-east of Scotland do not want what of government, they want government to get out of the way and let them do what they do best, extracting oil out of the North Sea, rather than this vanity project they should lift the ban on licences.

That should create and save jobs in Aberdeen. I industrial costs are pushing industries overseas, the impact is real for industrial communities and we need to have a real plan if the government gets this. We are grateful for the Minister heeding calls for slave labour provisions to be in this bill. Today we were, small victory in the acceptance of an amendment that seeks to prevent modern slavery in energy supply chains, positive change for the legislation, legislation that should not exist, but positive nonetheless.



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I rise today in strong support of the Lords Amendment and the the Lords Amendment and the consequential amendment from the honourable member for Rotherham. The Liberal Democrats welcome this key Liberal Democrats welcome this key step by the government towards preventing goods linked to Chinese preventing goods linked to Chinese slave labour from being part of all of our renewables businesses in supply chains. This decision took supply chains. This decision took supply chains. This decision took time. And it is born of pressure from members of all political parties and the strength of feeling parties and the strength of feeling from across both houses.

The Great British Energy action needed amending and we thank the government amending and we thank the government for reconsidering. I want to express for reconsidering. I want to express appreciation of Lord Alton's advocacy of this to happen. Together with Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the bill team and colleagues from across both houses, with important input from the inter-parliamentary from the inter-parliamentary alliance on China, there has been a constructive and cross-party effort to confront an issue too often left in the shadows.

The scourge of modern slavery in our energy supply modern slavery in our energy supply It is the groundbreaking investigative research that has investigative research that has helped to shine a light on what we helped to shine a light on what we have discovered. The BBC, and more, showing us forced labour has been showing us forced labour has been used to produce the solar battery that powers most of the green transition.
16:02
Pippa Heylings Portrait Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Just to reiterate and support what was referred to by the honourable leader, I understand this applies to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland as well. And the concern was about the slave labour and the Uighur Muslims in particular and from the point of view of the assembly, they were a member and expressed that the legislation was important and so I welcome what the government has put in place and I thank the honourable lady and the

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others who have contributed. Thank you. I thank you for your

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I thank you for your intervention. We have got to name, for example, the report in broad for example, the report in broad daylight which found the industrial daylight which found the industrial production in the Uighur region was production in the Uighur region was involved and 2.7 million are subjected to forced labour and subjected to forced labour and little re-education camps. We cannot afford it built on the backs of enslaved people. My constituents do not expect solar panels to be made not expect solar panels to be made by child labourers in the DRC or by child labourers in the DRC or enslaved Uighurs in Qin Gang.

I do enslaved Uighurs in Qin Gang. I do not expect the ministers to either and they are right not to. Further, I would like to highlight the amendment from the honourable member from Rotherham and this is about definitions and the really matter and the definition of slippery and how it is interpreted must be clear. The amendment makes it clear the definition includes forced labour, exploitative child labour, abuses of workers rights, dangerous conditions, and it would be good to hear from the Minister from the working groups that we make sure there are no loopholes, grey areas, convenient ignorance and it would have been brought into practice and I want to see in what way it will be brought into practice.

This is progress and not the end but the To quote for Joint Committee on Human Rights which is likely to call for a comprehensive overhaul of the Modern Slavery Act of 2015. It's an opportunity to look seriously at the model set by the US Uighur Labour Prevention Act which report the goods are the product of forced labour unless clear and convincing evidence can be shown. This would shift the burden of proof away from vulnerable victims and firmly on those who would profit, closing the loopholes which have allowed exploitation to continue unchecked and as my colleague noted, it's about international coordination and I would ask the Minister on efforts to update the House efforts to work with efforts to eliminate slavery from all of the chains, not just GB Energy but all companies and Great British Energy has the chance to lead by example on innovation and independence and on moral integrity.



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I am rising because this amendment came out of the work that amendment came out of the work that was done by the Department for China
16:05
Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)
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was done by the Department for China and myself and others were sanctioned by the Chinese government and we worked tirelessly on this and others have done the same and I would say to the honourable gentleman that the problem that we face is that we seem to be attacking this piecemeal and so when the Conservatives were in government, I had been fighting them to get a ban of products made by slave labour in the health service and this was thanks to cross-party involvement and no we have something in the Great British Energy Bill which is where to block modern slavery but the modern-day slavery act needs massively updating in this area because it has no teeth and without the Modern Slavery Act having been beefed up then port we get is piecemeal work from officials and so if we are going to embrace the idea and I know the government was tenuous about the the reality is, at the end of the day, now the object is that we have to make this the case for every product introduced in all government and local government and they are not allowed to involve themselves in modern day slavery.

A huge amount is China but there are other countries and I would say to the honourable gentlemen, the minister, that this is the beginning, not the end, and we have to make sure the lessons are that we to make sure the lessons are that we will be paragons of virtue with modern-day slavery and stand up for those who have no voice because if we buy products made by modern slavery, which undercuts the market, they do not get paid salaries, we destroy the concept of the free market and imprison people with a casual purchase.

There are items around the country that have modern slavery in them with polysilicon and support to be do about what is in existence in the UK? It is a big question and the government has just opened the door and if they want to stand by moral purpose which is what the Labour government claim to be, they must take this forward and say that they will bring it forward and if they do that, they will be right because it seemed that the issue of our time because the cost of product should not outweigh the cost of lives and what has happened in all of this is that we have turned a blind eye for too long to all of this and they must face our responsibilities and America gives us the lead on this and the US currency balance of proof on its head and make sure companies to clear correctly because those companies are assumed to have slave labour in their products and have to prove to the government that the supply chain is clear and they also test it using a company in America, a New Zealand company, and I would offer it to the government now that they have got to test the companies to tell the truth about this.

They have got to test their own product and if they do that then the government can begin to stand up for this one and the Opposition is ready to assist you in all of this and so are all the other parties and, as a are all the other parties and, as a parliament, we can now say that is parliament, we can now say that is it - no more backstabbing and no more pretence. We will fight modern more pretence. We will fight modern slavery forever it exists because it is a tool of aggression to break the free market.

free market.
16:10
Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)
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This is a red letter day to be in the chamber to discuss something positive with GB Energy and I commend the Minister and his colleagues on that. It is consistent it is a function of a significant U-turn in government policy and I thank the members in this chamber and the other place for making this come to fruition and the amendment says that GB Energy will ensure that there is no material or equipment produced as a function of slave labour used in GB Energy enterprises.

I heard the Minister talk about expectation and striving and its more unequivocal and so I would be grateful if you could reassure the House that assure means to ensure I am consistent with comments from other members, there is a straightforward way to do it. It might not be legislatively or bureaucratically but it's an important issue and if it does not attract a burden of administration to assure consciousness are clear, what can we do? Many of our purchases come with a Certificate of Conformity and so it would be strange for the government to mandate in ensuring there was no slave labour that certificate must be produced for all equipment that would explicitly guarantee the supply chains were free from slave labour and that does not seem to be an especially demanding expectation for electricity consumers on GB Energy or anyone else for that matter and one final point, kindly Minister explain because I'm not saying this with the clarity I suspect he is, or maybe he is not, but in terms of delivering this on the ground in a meaningful way, at what level would GB Energy be involved in the capacity as the decider rather than the provider? Where will they be VAR to scrutinise or see if the purchase is from this provider or that provider? That's provider or that provider? That's not my understanding.

To me, GB Energy has been explained as a de- Energy has been explained as a de- risking device to clear the blockages and inject capital into the market. I would be genuinely the market. I would be genuinely grateful if the Minister could clarify that.
16:13
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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That is the end of backbench contributions. The Minister for windup. Mr Shanks.

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I would like to thank all honourable members for their contributions and perhaps I will start with the intervention. Forgive start with the intervention. Forgive me, I do not know his constituency about the intervention earlier I about the intervention earlier I think that the tone for all the debate about the fact there is cross-party consensus on this and I cross-party consensus on this and I do not know his constituency but he do not know his constituency but he knows I am referring to him.

Important cross-party consensus and I hope it gives us the mandate to I hope it gives us the mandate to push further than any parties have done until this point and I start from that us the intent and I think from that us the intent and I think it is helpful. On the contribution from the shadow minister, and I from the shadow minister, and I welcome our exchanges, as he will, and I thought there was opportunity at this late stage to support at this late stage to support investment in his own constituency through Great British Energy but he's decided once again to see he's decided once again to see Mackie does not want investment and jobs and so we will remind his constituents of that.

Forever present in these debates. He had his teeth gritted but I welcome his teeth gritted but I welcome his support. I want to say that I meant -- 2B, combined with that from this dispatch box and those made in the other place, demonstrate the government is committed to using Great British Energy as a vehicle and to take the issue seriously and broadly and that came through and it's not just the preserve of Great British Energy but is wider from the energy system and the economy.

Some things are committed to doing, I committed to appointing a senior leader that would have oversight of forced labour in the supply chain and we confirmed Baroness O'Grady would take that role on and many would know of her significant experience in this space and she will bring effort to these deliberations and there is a committee for cross departmental meetings and there is an overarching expectation in the statement of strategic priorities which will be delivered within six months and be demonstrated unwavering commitment to tackling forced labour and supply chains and we are resolute in the

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determination to go forward. The question is, at the end of it

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The question is, at the end of it all, how will we know that the supply chains are correctly cleared? supply chains are correctly cleared? Otherwise, this will be an issue. In America, they check, test, sanction companies that have lied about companies that have lied about supply chains and that has forced and you change to the supply chain process. I ask the government to process. I ask the government to learn from America and get companies using forensic science to test the

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using forensic science to test the I thank the honourable gentleman.

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I thank the honourable gentleman. I was going to come to his contribution shortly. I think the first point he made in his speech is important, there is a danger of the important, there is a danger of the piecemeal approach he referred to. Partly why I have resisted... Solving these issues in isolation, it has an important role, but we have to look at these issues across government. The meetings I convened are a starting point for that and looking seriously at whether Modern Slavery Act does all short.

We will commit to do that. It sounds like there is consensus across the House to look seriously at that. That is not only my department, to avoid it being piecemeal it needs to be across government. The points he makes on tracking supply chains are helpful. If you of the points raised in debate, the honourable lady for South Cambridgeshire raised the point about the International Labour Organization's principles. Great British Energy will consider the 11 indicators of forced labour as part of their efforts.

I do not think the bill is the right place to get into a conversation about defining slavery. That might be something we need to look at, I'm not against that, but this is a bill creating Great British Energy. We are already a signatory highlighting the government's broad support on tackling compulsory and forced labour. Also why the Home Office published an action plan which sets out first steps of departmental responsibilities of tackling modern slavery at its root. Confirms the government is looking at strengthening sections of the Modern Slavery Act 2015.

These are important issues and I look for a second I seek to sate the amendment today on Great British Energy today in itself will solve these issues but I think this is an important step and I welcome the contributions across the House.

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I basically want to say thank you to the Minister. It has been a robust and rough journey and I think robust and rough journey and I think the Minister has listened to comments across the House, analysed comments across the House, analysed the arguments, listened to the other the arguments, listened to the other place as well and I think this bill is now going to be a very strong act is now going to be a very strong act

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is now going to be a very strong act Our global supply chains and get the transparency that I think everyone in this House once, so thank you. I thank for that intervention.

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I thank for that intervention. But more broadly for her significant contribution in this space are and for the way she has influenced me for the way she has influenced me and others over the past few weeks over these important issues and others across the House, it has been a cross-party effort, I think we are a cross-party effort, I think we are in the same place and we want to take this forward and there is more work to do, I want that to be the message, while this is progress, it is the beginning, certainly not the end of further work on this.

Perhaps without tempting fate, as this is the last opportunity of this bill in this place, can I thank everyone who has played a role in getting this girl to this stage. Can I particularly thank Lord Hunt in the other place, all colleagues in this place of all parties who contributed to the Bill Committee and the witnesses who gave evidence, the parliamentary staff who played an important role in shepherding this bill through this place and the House of Lords.

And can I thank the fantastic team of officials in the department who moved at incredible speed to develop this legislation and with great humour. Great British and with great humour. Great British Is aiming to achieve, clean power and jobs as we do it, energy security and climate leadership, owned by and for the people of this country, headquartered in the energy capital of Europe in Aberdeen. And investment in supply chains and much more, this is the big idea of our time and deliver on energy objectives but with the public owning a stake in their energy future.

I'm pleased that Parliament will hopefully back it today so it can receive Royal assent and we can get on with what we want to do.

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The Deputy Speaker in the chair today is also sanctioned by the Chinese government.

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Chinese government. That is noted on the record again. The question is that this again. The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their amendment? As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it.? contrary, "No." The ayes have it.? As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. That concludes ayes have it. That concludes consideration of the Lords Message related to the Great British Energy related to the Great British Energy Bill.

I will give the Front Benchers Bill. I will give the Front Benchers Bill. I will give the Front Benchers a few minutes to shuffle over. The question is on the order paper. As question is on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it.

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Data use and access bill, Lords. Consideration of Lords Message. I must draw the House attention
16:22
None Portrait Consideration of Lords message: Consideration of Lords Message on the Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]
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I must draw the House attention to the fact that Lords Amendment 40 9B, the laws disagreement with the Commons in Commons amendment 52 and Lords Amendment 50 2B and 50 2C, engage Commons Financial Privilege. If any amendments are agreed to I will cause the customary entry waving Commons Financial Privilege to be entered into that journal. The amendment 32... And propose the

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words restored to the bill with the Lords disagreement. I call the Minister. Notwithstanding the views of the

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Notwithstanding the views of the Chinese government, it is a delight to see you in your place. I am only to see you in your place. I am only saddened that I have not been sanctioned. It feels a shame, nor by Russia for that matter, there is Russia for that matter, there is still time. I am delighted to be here today to discuss the data bill which we last discussed one week ago which we last discussed one week ago today. I would like to express how pleased I am that the other players pleased I am that the other players agreed to the government's amendments related to the national underground asset register and underground asset register and intimate image abuse.

I want to pay tribute to the members of the House tribute to the members of the House of Lords who played a part in of Lords who played a part in getting that legislation to where it is now, I am glad we have been able to work with them. I'm going to to work with them. I'm going to start with encouraging the House to agree those amendments before I agree those amendments before I discuss amendments relating to a, individual property, science research and sex and gender.

On amendment 60 5D, 55 50 5B and E. These place on the face of the bill These place on the face of the bill the government to have the offence of intimate image deep fakes. The government was pleased to support the bill in the other place as we share the desire to ensure that criminal law works as government intends.

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I thank you for giving way. I think all of us appreciate this and want to protect vulnerable women, children and anyone at risk of this children and anyone at risk of this harm. With this amendment put forward, would we not look at doing something similar for creative something similar for creative industries, if we can protect vulnerable people, can we also

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copyright? I think she is jumping ahead of

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I think she is jumping ahead of the gun if I might say so. I will come onto these issues but I want to praise Baroness Owen with this legislation because I do not think it would have ended up in the bill
16:25
Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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it would have ended up in the bill if it were not for her. There was doing and throwing between the Ministry of Justice to make sure we got the legislation in the right place. As I said in last week's discussions, one of the issues was whether her original version of the second offence worked in law and I think she agreed that our version was better which we tabled in committee here and now we have been able to tidy up the question of reasonable excuse, hopefully a reasonable question, why would there be a reasonable excuse for creating or asking one of these images to be created.

We have had those debates previously but I'm glad we have come to a decision between Baroness Owen and the government and that is what I am urging everybody to support. The government made a manifesto commitment to ban sexually explicit deep fakes and this bill delivers on the promise for the first time, there will be punishment for the perpetrators you create or asking us to create intimate deep fakes of adults without consent. The underground asset register, it feels like this has been a long time coming, the bill is in its third iteration.

Amendment 34 regarding the national underground asset register was... An amendment was previously tabled in the House of Lords requiring the Secretary of State to provide guidance on cybersecurity measures which was rejected by this House. Last week the government tabled amendments on this topic which was drafted with the Security Services. This was only two general security measures, extend the reach to Northern Ireland. On the amendments I have spoken to so far, I would like to thank Noble colleagues for their work and support to reach agreements on these areas.

I would urge those here today to support these amendments otherwise we will never get the bill through. get the bill through.

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To deliver things like content credentials that things like Adobe have championed, showing he has have championed, showing he has produced a file and what has been used to edit it. Can he confirm used to edit it. Can he confirm whether the bill will deliver on that commitment to content that commitment to content credentials? If not, why not?

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The bill was never intended to do with copyright and eye at all. There with copyright and eye at all. There was no provision with a -- eye at was no provision with a -- eye at If he keeps on talking at me, I'm

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If he keeps on talking at me, I'm happy to give way to him again if he wants but I can hear what he is saying. Particularly around eye being used to change photographs and used to change photographs and having, through content credentials or the digital fingerprint the ability to see that. Government has ability to see that. Government has still not themselves adopted that in terms of government official communications. Would the bill deliver that, or if not why would the government itself not be adopting some of that best practice?

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I'm failing to understand the point he is making. Because this bill was not intending and has never intended to do with the kind of intended to do with the kind of issue he is referring to. I think if somebody were to table amendments to that effect they will be ruled out that effect they will be ruled out of order. The bill does not deal with copyright or artificial intelligence, that only measures intelligence, that only measures that pertain to eye and copyright that pertain to eye and copyright are the amendments in the House of Lords which I'm going to speak to.

I listened carefully, I could not listened carefully, I could not listen to the whole of the debate in the House of Lords the other day but the Secretary of State and myself the Secretary of State and myself stood at the bar in the House to listen to considerable parts of the debate. I want to make two separate debate. I want to make two separate but interconnected points about eye and intellectual property in relation to the bill. There is an relation to the bill. There is an urgent issue that needs to be addressed, what is happening now, today, and what happened yesterday, today, and what happened yesterday, last week, last year and two years ago.

Let me reiterate, to be absolutely clear, copyright law in the UK is unchanged. Works are protected unless one of the existing exceptions that have existed for some time, such as exceptions for teaching and research applies, or unless the rights holder has granted permission for their work to be used. That is the law. It is the law now and will be the law tomorrow if the House agrees with the government and reject the amendment tabled, which has been supported in the House of Lords.

As I said before, I am glad several creative industries have been able to secure licensing agreements with eye companies, including publishers, music labels and others under existing law. -- Eye companies. I want to see more of that. that.

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It is wonderful to hear him talk of copyright in existing laws we can of copyright in existing laws we can use. I'm wondering if he is aware of the concern about expansive fair use the concern about expansive fair use principles creeping into UK practice and what we can do to secure safeguards and we will not allow erosion of foreign interpretation software used to impact copyright laws?

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laws? The US system of values is different from the UK system and is different from the UK system and is has gone back -- House has gone back to 1709, it has been very solid. I said when we introduced the bill said when we introduced the bill earlier on, one of the things we earlier on, one of the things we should be proud of in this country is succession of different generations that make sure rights holders are able to protect holders are able to protect copyright.

Charles Dickens, one of his big battles was not only being able to protect copyright in the UK but protected in the USA where he but protected in the USA where he felt he had fewer protections. It is for us to develop our law in our country. As I said to my honourable friend, the law as it is will not change one jot. As a result of what

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Yesterday he appeared in front of

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Yesterday he appeared in front of the Select Committee and said the best kind of AI is built on premium best kind of AI is built on premium content and you cannot get that without paying for it. As well as being concerned about the overuse of being concerned about the overuse of the expression 'premium content' in the sentence, I'm also concerned the sentence, I'm also concerned that as we speak there are copy written works being scraped in an written works being scraped in an underhand way by AI developers and some are failing negotiations for some are failing negotiations for licensing with those people whose work they are scraping.

Surely it is time to require developers to tell us what is being used and what the us what is being used and what the bots are to and I'm sure he agrees that amendment 49 is a good way to move forward and see what is being move forward and see what is being done to train AI.

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done to train AI. I stand by everything I said to the Select Committee yesterday and I believe that the best form of AI will be intelligent artificial intelligence unlike any pipe, good AI will depend on what comes out of the pipe not just what goes in and if you have high quality data going in, it will produce high quality data at the other end. I am aware of a lot of publishing houses, and I've spoken to several, and if he would let me finish the point I made, then I will give way and the honourable gentleman gets very cross sometimes but I'm aware there are publishing houses in the UK determined to secure licensing deals in the UK and overseas, because they want to make sure that those AI companies remunerate them and have high quality up-to-date information and data going in so if someone searches about immunotherapy, for instance, they will have the latest information and not stuff that is five, six, seven years out of date or from a dodgy source and the other point, because I will make two, and I've remember, the second point is she said this amendment would sort the problem today but it wouldn't.

It wouldn't do anything. It would not do anything for a considerable number of months and so what we do tomorrow, as a government, and the creative industries, everyone working together, under the existing law as it is today.

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I thank the Minister for giving way and the existing copyright laws protect creative industries artist protect creative industries artist but they are is a lot of heritage that has been scraped and there will that has been scraped and there will be films in the top 20 and 30 bestsellers based entirely on AI. This is happening now. Surely This is happening now. Surely artists and creatives should know when works are being used and this when works are being used and this is why they are are proper calls for transparency from 49.



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transparency from 49. He is right that there are works there that have been used creatively with the use of AI and I never thought the creative industries are Luddite - I've always thought they had at the forefront of innovation had at the forefront of innovation in many areas and it is true of every creative industry that they every creative industry that they must innovate to succeed and if you go to a videogames company label saying they are using AI all the time, not to save money but to improve the product and be able to be at the cutting edge of what they have done.

Even Bjorn from Abba says he is using AI because it enhances his work and another issue to be addressed, one thing in the consultation, what do we do about the copyright status of work that is solely or largely created by AI? It's a moot point under existing law. We must address these issues in the round rather than piecemeal and

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I heard a man's voice behind me. He's been generous with his time

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He's been generous with his time with regards to me today and in terms of transparency, does he agree terms of transparency, does he agree it will reduce the uncertainty and enable faster redress where copyright is breached.

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copyright is breached. I don't think people should reach copyright law and I've said that several times and we believe people several times and we believe people should not breach copyright law and some of those issues have been tested in the courts and could be more over future months and one more over future months and one point I made right at the beginning point I made right at the beginning when we introduced the consultation on this, I made the point we have a fair review system and our system in fair review system and our system in the UK and a slightly different system in the EU which is largely reliant on the Napoleonic code and all of those are different and have been implemented differently in been implemented differently in different countries and may come to different conclusions in different court cases in some of these cases and that is why we wanted to look at every single element of this with transparency and technical data and access to data, high quality data and the issues of enforcement, personality rights, and a series of issues, many of which are yet to be addressed in either debate.

It takes me back to the point of which I do not think this is the bill to do this work and I do not think the amendment today will secure of what

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people hope for from its. I thank the Minister for giving way. The Minister mentioned the consultation. Could the Minister confirm that the government no longer considers an opt out model and, if so, what alternative and, if so, what alternative approach is being actively pursued or developed with the sector?

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or developed with the sector? I will say two things. We always

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I will say two things. We always said we would consult on a package and part of that is getting to a technical solution so rights holders technical solution so rights holders could better protect rights. I will give way in a moment. I've got two give way in a moment. I've got two points to make. I will probably forget the second one. It was always going to be a package of measures and he said we would not introduce and he said we would not introduce it unless we were secure in the it unless we were secure in the belief we could deliver for the creative industries a technical solution to make it easier to enforce rights and lead to more licensing and in the last debate I've had on this I said two things.

First of all, we are open-minded with regard to the consultation and secondly, just as importantly, I think it was Amendment 16 or 17 when he last debated this, we said we would do an economic impact assessment of all different options included in the consultation and I hope that answers the question. I think it is at the back.

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I thank him for giving way. There

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I thank him for giving way. There was an article in 'The Observer' was an article in 'The Observer' that said proposals for an outdated system of copyright rules was no longer the intention and this is potentially a welcome change of heart but does not mean anything heart but does not mean anything unless ministers will meet and so

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unless ministers will meet and so will my honourable friend confirm this is an accurate depiction of the government position. I will, I am afraid, repeat what

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I will, I am afraid, repeat what I said, that what we introduced was I said, that what we introduced was a package of measures which hinged on the issue of whether we could on the issue of whether we could deliver for AI companies and creative industries to deliver more creative industries to deliver more effectively and, as I've said, I think we are open-minded about the think we are open-minded about the responses to the consultation. I think we've had 11,500 responses and we are making our way through and a lot of issues have been addressed.

I was there the issue of the economic impact assessment is serious because it is one thing to say the AI company is the third largest in the world and worth so many bullion pounds and a lot of people think it is worth £424 billion and is a different matter to draw an economic assessment on the basis of different options. I'm afraid he is in a queue and it is long and seems to be getting longer.

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The honourable lady is next.

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On the point around finding a solution, if there is a solution inside, will be Minister confirm what nontechnical regulatory measures are being considered to

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measures are being considered to protect rights holders in the interim? That's precisely why we have got

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That's precisely why we have got to do this in the round rather than piecemeal. I understand the piecemeal. I understand the attraction of the order paper to the but I would say I do not think it delivers the answer that people need delivers the answer that people need now to the issues that creative industries are facing and, in industries are facing and, in another debate, referred to this another debate, referred to this issue. I think we will have to set issue.

I think we will have to set up a system for a queue. I do not up a system for a queue. I do not think it is popularity. The important point is that we have to do it in the round, not piecemeal. I do not think what is on the order paper would do anything now. It purports to give something in six, nine, 12 months in the future. I am happy to give way.

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I am sure he will be popular for being so generous with his time. In being so generous with his time. In terms of sustained anxiety, when can

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we expect a substantial response? I wish I could give him a

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I wish I could give him a timeline. The main thing I want to say about the timeline, as somebody say about the timeline, as somebody who I think the honourable members will no cares passionately about the will no cares passionately about the anxiety that is being created and also the anxiety for many creative also the anxiety for many creative people about their future, I get that anxiety and that is the bigger point I would like to start. I would point I would like to start.

I would like to stop doing the data bill and start engaging with my honourable friend and to go around and have as many sessions with creative industries and different parts of the sector and the companies and in particular the UK-based companies to get a solution and until I get the data bill out of the way, I will struggle to do that and I would say another point and I think of my honourable friend as a musician and there is a really important argument for different sectors within the creative industries because word, image, music, sound will all have two use different technical solutions and that is the nitty- gritty you have got to get into which we can only do when we consider the whole issue in the round rather than a specific aspect.



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the Minister is indeed extremely generous with his time. I'm conscious the Minister is talking about the possibility that these amendments would not do anything today and that there is an urgency in creative industries about the fact that the stuff that they create is being scraped now. Can the Minister prioritise transparency by committing at the dispatch box today committing at the dispatch box today to introducing enforceable obligations, if not through a statutory instrument then through statutory instrument then through clear public that transparency will be central to the government be central to the government

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be central to the government I get the urgency of this. I wish we had been addressing this two or three years ago because we are some three years ago because we are some way behind other countries in relation to this. Secondly, yes. We will prioritise the issue of transparency in all the work we do as we go forward. I said that from the beginning. Transparency is essential to the issue of licensing, licensing is essential to the question of remuneration.

Remuneration is essential to the process of a being high-quality, effective and able to be deployed in the UK. All of these things have to be addressed in the round and together but she is right that without transparency, it is worth nothing. My honourable friend here, Minister is talking in my air, it was the first time we discussed, how can we get to the place of a resolute piece of legislation that enables greater licensing, greater deployment of artificial intelligence in the UK and how can we get that greater transparency.



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He is generous with his time. Would he consider interim measures or guidance that delivers similar outcomes while legislative options are being explored? That is what the

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creative industries are looking for. I do not know what interim

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I do not know what interim measures would look like. All others in the team have said we are open- minded about anybody coming through the door with a good solution. We the door with a good solution. We are in the business of good ideas. If anyone has good ideas we are If anyone has good ideas we are happy to look at them but I cannot make the guarantee she asks for because I do not really know what because I do not really know what interim measures would look like.

It is not our intention and I would urge people to abide by this, it is not our intention to legislate piecemeal in this bill which is not about artificial intelligence copyright.

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I'm grateful for him giving way. Might I suggest he works on his queueing system a little bit. I understand that the timetable issue is a difficult one and most seem to be arriving in spring. Can we talk about the format. We are going to have the consultation and then is it a white paper and going into appeal? Is that what it will look like? Would that be in the next Kings speech, perhaps?

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I am certainly not going to suggest, if I was not able to suggest, if I was not able to suggest what interim measures would look like, I'm not sure I can please look like, I'm not sure I can please him with suggesting what will be in the next Kings speech. I do not even the next Kings speech. I do not even know when it will be. The thing I want to do is Minister for creative industries and data, I want to be industries and data, I want to be able to get on with the business of trying to get together working trying to get together working parties.

I referred several times to parties. I referred several times to getting people from the artificial intelligence companies and creative people to work out what a people to work out what a proportionate and effective system would look like. Other countries would look like. Other countries have struggled with drawing it up, the EU is struggling at the moment. And likewise report the technical And likewise report the technical solutions would be. At the same time we are considering what our response we are considering what our response should be.

We have heard what many people have said on this issue. We are bearing that in mind and keeping an open mind in relation to that. I cannot give him a date on when we will publish the consultation but we

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are working on it as fast as we can. You said it is not for us to give away the labour of other people to third parties for free. Given the government have said it is open- minded, which means if there is no technical solution, are you open to technical solution, are you open to the idea of legislative solutions to protect copyright? It is people in watchdog, low-paid creatives and people across the North West and people across the North West and whole of the country.

One of the whole of the country. One of the things about the creative industries as a sector, which are growing as a sector, which are growing faster than the rest of the UK, we hope to be laying out our plan in the next few weeks in the industrial the next few weeks in the industrial strategy, one of the unique aspects is the exist in nearly every part of is the exist in nearly every part of our land. Often they are not well- paid or really rated and we want to paid or really rated and we want to change that.

It is a key part of what we want to do. We want to make what we want to do. We want to make sure that more people can come to creative industries and realise ambitions in those areas. They cannot do that if they are not going to be able to be remunerated. We want to get to a technical solution which I think is not very far away, I think it is a possibility, there are those who are wanting to work on it.

It might be something where somebody might earn a decent penny if they were to come up with this solution, so all of the rights could be there easily, without great expense, to be able to protect rights across all artificial intelligence platforms across the UK. I am almost as keen to get onto the next bit of my speech as I am to get the data bill through to Royal assent but I think I probably ought to give way to the honourable lady.



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I am grateful to him for giving me and I get the sense he is perhaps me and I get the sense he is perhaps needing to go along, which is why he is taking so many interventions. I'm is taking so many interventions. I'm happy to assist. I know him well enough and how much you value suspense, I have been concerned suspense, I have been concerned about his comments throughout that he is keen to get on with this. he is keen to get on with this.

Would he like to but on record he is first and foremost a parliamentarian and being in this place is the bit

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and being in this place is the bit of the job he values most? The honourable lady was at my 60th birthday, I know it is 60th birthday, I know it is difficult to believe, a very long time ago says the rather ungenerous time ago says the rather ungenerous member sitting at the back. I have member sitting at the back. I have not been asked to go along, I am simply, because I do believe in parliamentary scrutiny, trying to parliamentary scrutiny, trying to ask -- answer all of the questions and engage in the debate.

There are and engage in the debate. There are some issues which they may want to press the on which are different to press the on which are different to this, I am happy to be pressed, including by her, as many times as she wants. I do not think there was a question in her point, I think she was thinking she was helping me go

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along but I am trying to go short. There is a look of confusion, I do not know who was and was not invited to the member's 60th invited to the member's 60th birthday party and some may be feeling left out.

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feeling left out. I know it is out of order to say someone is not telling the truth, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, you were but, Madam Deputy Speaker, you were

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there. And I accept your apology. The honourable gentleman is being very generous with his time today. I very generous with his time today. I thank him for that. I understand the government maintained this bill is not the right time for these amendments. Given the government's amendments. Given the government's anticipated removal of the amendments today and use of Financial Privilege, what action Financial Privilege, what action will the Minister take to address the ongoing, serious concerns of our the ongoing, serious concerns of our world leading creative industries, particularly on copyright on transparency? What does he advise transparency? What does he advise those of us seeking stronger commitments to do next? Would he point to any specific timeline, mechanism or legislative tool that will be able to be used to offer the

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certainty this sector is crying out for? Notwithstanding that hilarity,

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Notwithstanding that hilarity, this is obviously a very important matter to a large number of people matter to a large number of people and for many people in the creative and for many people in the creative industry it does feel like a kind of apocalyptic moment, they think their careers are disappearing in front of their faces and I recognise that. their faces and I recognise that. The moment the data bill is out of the way, what I would like to do and the way, what I would like to do and I know both the departments I'd sit I know both the departments I'd sit in would like to get people back in two work on two working parties, one around transparency and precisely around transparency and precisely what that looks like, in granular detail, very high level stuff I do detail, very high level stuff I do not think really meets the moment.

And the issue of technical standards And the issue of technical standards and solutions that might be able to and solutions that might be able to deliver greater access to data for their artificial intelligence companies and the ability for creative industries to protect their works. One of the elements of the amendment on the order paper today which I do have some sympathy with, something I want to explore, is the issue that has been raised first by the honourable gentleman. There is one issue for Getty Images or something like that that is able to go to court and protect their rights because they have deep pockets, it is quite a different matter for an individual artist, they may want to individual artist, they may want to promote their work on the internet, does not want it to disappear from the internet but does not want it to be scraped, turned into another version of artificial intelligence version of artificial intelligence of their work.

I think I ought to move on to the next subject. But I take this point very seriously wishes it is not just about with deep pockets, also about individual artists and we want to make sure they get that.

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There is little or no doubt that the Minister takes the issue the Minister takes the issue seriously. Would he also accept that seriously. Would he also accept that what he has been able to say in answer to questions from the side of the House will offer that sector the House will offer that sector cold comfort? He recognises this is an issue, he argues this bill is not an issue, he argues this bill is not the place to resolve it, but gives no strong leadership on the issue to no strong leadership on the issue to set out a clear timetable, clearly set out a clear timetable, clearly set out direction of travel, show the House is thinking about how the issues could be solved because there could be a lot of people facing this problem today who he is asking to problem today who he is asking to take comfort from his intention to do something at an unspecified time with the exception of convening to working parties.

It is not quite working parties. It is not quite enough, it ought to be the backbone of this vibrant sector which he rightly says is represented in all constituencies across the country.

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Of course I would like to be able to move faster, but as the honourable gentleman said, this is honourable gentleman said, this is not an easy not to untie. I think it is going to need quite a deal of goodwill from a large number of goodwill from a large number of people to secure something that is a certain outcome that works for certain outcome that works for everybody. I believe there could be a win win situation but that will a win win situation but that will only happen if we can gather everyone around the same table to be able to deliver it.

I am happy to able to deliver it. I am happy to deliver that leadership. I do not think that is the problem at this think that is the problem at this moment. Let me give the honourable gentleman one reason why I think the gentleman one reason why I think the amendment on the order paper today does not work, yes, we are all agreed we should introduce transparency measures, it is difficult to work out what that would be that will be proportionate and effective and would work equally for big and small companies.

There is no point in having transparency measures unless you have an enforcement measure. There is an element in this clause which refers to enforcement but it basically ask the Secretary of State to draw up that enforcement. One would not expect to be able to do that in any other area without a full bill devoted solely to that purpose. I wish I were able to move faster. I do not want to move faster than is going to be able to secure an outcome.

I'm going to take one more because I have taken so many. I

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probably ought to take the chair of the Select Committee. I thank the Minister for giving

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I thank the Minister for giving way. His generosity in giving way has made this into a debate. I want to thank him for his determination to thank him for his determination to bring the tech centre and to bring the tech centre and creatives, to bring them together to create a solution. Can I urge him to create a solution. Can I urge him to ensure he works with a wide range of tech companies. I do not believe that the large tech platforms have that the large tech platforms have the right incentives to develop an the right incentives to develop an appropriate tech solution to this.

Can I urge him to be transparent in how he engages with them because I how he engages with them because I would also say to him that the tech platforms refuse to appear before platforms refuse to appear before the during setting with the DCMS Select Committee that we held and it Select Committee that we held and it is through the transparency we can have competition to identify the

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have competition to identify the Yes, I completely agree. She makes a good point that many creative industries are in technology and they are fast growing technology and they are fast growing and part of what we want to incentivise and she makes a good point that we have to talk to lots of different kinds of companies just of different kinds of companies just like we have to talk to different kinds of creative industries and the points are well made and that is the points are well made and that is the type of work that we will want to type of work that we will want to take forward as soon as we can.

Just one moment. I have forgotten the other point that I was going to make.

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Will the Minister make it his policy to include representatives policy to include representatives working on AI and copyright reform? working on AI and copyright reform? We have got to this point with one department speaking to one person and another to another and the implications are for both sectors and the intention should be with both in the room at the same time talking with the Minister and the

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depart. I agree with what he said and I make that T. When we started the make that T. When we started the process after the election, the first consultation meetings we had, first consultation meetings we had, the two of us, we had creative industries in one room and AI in industries in one room and AI in another and it might be better to mix them up as suggested that is the mix them up as suggested that is the job of work I want to get on with and I assure him that we are and I assure him that we are determined, wherever we can, to take it with us and be transparent about our job and I want to lay to rest the idea there are two departments at war with one another.

It's not at war with one another. It's not the case and two arms are trying to work together to achieve good outcomes for everybody at the same time.

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time. the Minister has been unbelievably generous with the interventions but I wanted to say that the point is important to have the voices in the same room at the same time and he must not forget the reason creative industries is in a state of panic and despair about this is because it was set running a few months ago by the Department of science and technology when they had an AI strategy which was published saying the copyright opt out was the saying the copyright opt out was the way forward to grow the industry and then the government finished the consultation and indicated did opt out of the preferred mechanism despite the fact it was prioritising transparency and I understand that but you must understand that the panic has set in and what we there does matter and he must do what he

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can now. I am very sympathetic to the

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I am very sympathetic to the direction of travel that she is trying to take me in and I would say that some people think I'm splitting hairs and that's not my intention hairs and that's not my intention and I've been keen to avoid the term 'opcode'. We've brought forward a 'opcode'. We've brought forward a package of measures reliant on delivering greater control for delivering greater control for technical measures and others who had rights to protect. That is why had rights to protect.

That is why we refer to rates and reservations we refer to rates and reservations rather than opting out. I am sure we will debated for a period of time and I should say that when I was chair of privileges, we produced a report which was yet to be implemented and that was when they wanted to do so. I might move on. Research is the issue embedded in amendment 40 3B in the House of Lords amendment.

There are some people who suggested that somehow or other we will be committing a Wild West for research. And we are not changing the threshold for what constitutes scientific research in the bill? We are sticking with what has been and is a fair and proportionate measure using the test which is common in other piece of legislation and is well known by the courts and we believe it would avoid unnecessary research for researchers.

We have a broadcast sector in the UK and we want to empower them, not tie them up in red tape and that's why we believe that these documents, which are very useful and interesting in other settings, are not designed to contain legally binding requirements and that is why we think the amendment is displaced and researchers would need to illustrate if this amendment could move forward and it is creativity worked to a legal standard and if the work is aimed at testing the results of another researcher, is it truly creative or a legitimate question? Takes on a whole new meaning with a layer of bureaucracy if it is enforced to a new legal standard of the bill and sits, backed up by potential for huge regulatory fines.

Similar issues arise with requirements for research to be systematic and ethical. Both of those words are not words necessarily well known in the courts in relation to this legislation. As Lord Winston argued powerfully on Monday, if it had been the last 50 years ago, we may never have had fertilisation and benefits spinning off from it including cancer research. These issues are caused by putting text into a legally binding setting it was never designed for.

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I thank the Minister for giving way. Can he expand on the point the way. Can he expand on the point the honourable Lord made in the other honourable Lord made in the other place last night in terms of how the scientific research for the reuse of

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scientific research for the reuse of data prevented in vitro fertilisation. Is point is that by introducing two new concepts into what two new concepts into what constitutes research as opposed to the accepted threshold that exists the accepted threshold that exists already, namely systematic and already, namely systematic and ethical and creative, you are creating a new idea of what research is and in relation to ethical, at is and in relation to ethical, at the time when he was doing IVF work, or wanting to start it, it was generally thought it would be generally thought it would be unethical to explore that territory unethical to explore that territory and I think today we would consider and I think today we would consider it to be misplaced.

That is why the task of deciding what counts as scientific research, we believe, is best approached by drawing on guidance and the opinion of experts as reasonable as a solid, concept well understood by the courts and while I sympathise with intentions to guard against misuse and the issues we have discussed on several occasions, we believe this is unnecessary as the bell already contains sufficient and considerable safeguards. The controller who wishes to have these levels must first of all ensure they are employing the rules on purpose limitation.

The data was collected on the basis of consent, scientific research is not listed as an exemption. Secondly, they would have to ensure they passed the reasonableness test and thirdly they would have to ensure they have little and forth that they would have to meet the requirements for safeguards in clause 86 and fifth, they would have to ensure the they would have to ensure the processing is fear and complies with the protection laws in the UK. GDB are. It's a substantial set of safeguards and the government can't see how the amendment will add value on top of these requirements but it will have an effect on genuine researchers and will burden them with red tape and could affect further research.

I will not give way again. I will sum up at the end. I think you would like me to get a I think you would like me to get a move on. On sex and gender in the context of the bill, finally, I have tabled amendments to remove what was voted on Monday in the House of Lords for the reasons I unload balance previously does it and to clarify, the data accuracy principle requires personal data to be accurate and not misleading for the purpose for which it is being used.

The state should ensure -- the safeguard should ensure that digital publication services for the purpose of verifying an attribute and that of verifying an attribute and that the appropriately confirm the specifics public authorities are legally compliant to comply at various stages of the process. It's unlikely the services will be used in the kind of cases raised by members of the opposition but this means organisation request verification, the public authority must not share database records gender more widely for the purpose of the cheque and likewise the service providers must not rely on database records gender as part of the process in this scenario.

The government recognises there are instances where the data appears in the same field and the existing legislation requires it to be legislation requires it to be accurate and this means the personal data processed as part of the checks must reflect the specific requirements of the cheque and I would like to assure the House that if the government identified that instance where a public authority was sharing the data mislabelled as biological sex with digital verification services we would respond appropriately.

To reiterate, this government considers the issue of data accuracy of importance and accepts the Supreme Court ruling. accepts the Supreme Court ruling. The judgement and its effects must of course be worked through with sensitivity. The government is already undertaking extensive work on data standards and accuracy and will consider updated guidelines from the Equalities Regulator and so I Don't Think It's Appropriate, Having Taken These Steps, Particularly Given the Sensitive Nature of the Matter and the Potential to Impact Privacy and Human Rights of People.

Finally, I Would like to Finish by Noting the Opinion of Yourself and Lords Amendments against the Financial Privilege of the House Which the Government Does Not Believe It Is Appropriate for the House to Wave and I'm Sure the Other Place Will Reflect Carefully during Further Consideration of the Issues and I'm

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Grateful to Speak Today and I Hope I Have Not Cut Anybody off before They Are Timed. That Was a Substantial Opening

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That Was a Substantial Opening Speech. The Point of Order, Simon Hall.

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You recall that on Monday Mr Speaker took to task the Treasury bench for making an announcement bench for making an announcement about changes and the fact the about changes and the fact the announcements and policy changes announcements and policy changes were made before this House. The were made before this House. The honourable that he made the point this afternoon. Cord is at the heart this afternoon. Cord is at the heart of it and it's been brought to my attention this afternoon that the Minister of Justice announced some fairly major stipulations limiting how young offenders can be returned how young offenders can be returned to prison and a major shakeup and it seems that the government is a persistent offender itself in this matter.

It strikes me as being arrogantly cavalier, given the strong stretches on the day when it is granted, another offence is added to the charge sheet. This is something which should effect and concern all members of the House who are not part of the Frontbench. The Parliament use these announcements as they affect constituents and the removal of people from the prison system etc and safety is of concern to all constituents, irrespective of where we represent. I understand there is no indication for a written statement on this important issue and so I rise to reinforce the point being made over the last seven days on the significant breach of the ministerial code and to enquire if further at this little stage the chair has had any indication of statement from the Ministry of Justice so that a relevant minister can be questioned on what this can be questioned on what this

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I thank him for giving notice of

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I thank him for giving notice of the point of order. The House took an urgent question earlier today on an urgent question earlier today on that Ministerial Code. When the House of Commons is sitting, major government announcements should be made to the House first. The point made to the House first. The point has been made repeatedly from the chair multiple times, most recently. chair multiple times, most recently. Ministers are accountable to this Ministers are accountable to this Ministers are accountable to this -- and should make every effort to inform this House of policy statements where it is possible to do so.

I have no warning statement do so. I have no warning statement was due today. I trust that the was due today. I trust that the Front Bench will act accordingly and Front Bench will act accordingly and with some urgency to this. The question is this House insists on question is this House insists on Commons amendment 32, where the Commons disagreed with the Lords amendments. I call that shadow.

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It is a pleasure to rise to speak in their laws Amendment stage of in their laws Amendment stage of their data use and access bill. Over the course of debating this bill I the course of debating this bill I think it has become customary to thank the work done by those in the other place, particularly Baroness Owen with her work on deep fakes, Owen with her work on deep fakes, amongst others who have campaigned boldly in this area. I start by boldly in this area.

I start by speaking to 40 9B, we have been clear that supporting the creative and artificial intelligence sectors and artificial intelligence sectors is not a zero-sum game. The government through its consultation government through its consultation on copyright and artificial on copyright and artificial intelligence have raised concerns in the creative sector, the responses the creative sector, the responses have been in response to the messes they created. We set out a series of amendments that focus on the outcome, not process, for a solution in this area.

They were based in ensuring the position of copyright in this area was clear, the need for transparency, removing barriers to start-ups and facilitating technological solutions via digital watermarking. It strikes me as odd during the previous debate and one of the interventions the Member for North East Cambridgeshire he mentioned the importance in terms of implementing digital watermarking, and that point in response to deep fakes, but also has relevance to solutions and the Minister went on to cover broadly the same topics in his opening remarks despite pointing out to the Member for North East Cambridgeshire that it was not relevant to the ongoing debate.

It indicates how confused the area has become in the bill and the need for clarity. I would like to pay tribute
17:20
Ben Spencer Portrait Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
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to many here in the other place -- and in the other place for their work to get a resolution here. We work to get a resolution here. We have sympathy for earlier versions of the amendments but concerns for workability and prescriptive list. workability and prescriptive list. We have worked with the Baroness to get to a place we can support and we believe solutions need to incorporate the principles of transparency and proportionality. It is not a perfect solution but more reasonable than doing nothing. I reasonable than doing nothing.

I find it astounding that the main criticism that the Minister has put criticism that the Minister has put forward towards amendment 40 9B is forward towards amendment 40 9B is the fact it has their period prior to implementation and the fact that while people are calling things to while people are calling things to happen now it is not happening now happen now it is not happening now and it is an odd way of approaching legislating where we are as opposition and working with other parties to get a solution to get the parties to get a solution to get the Minister out of a hole.

I hope members across the House support Lords Amendment 40 9B today. I will move on to digital verification services next. I welcome amendments 32, 30 2B, 32 I welcome amendments 32, 30 2B, 30 2C, 52 I welcome amendments 32, 30 2B, 30 2C, 50 2B and C on sex data accuracy which received support of members in the other place. As my noble friend said in his speech, it was necessary to the table amended versions on data accuracy previously amended in the other place.

Here, the clause was not in scope with the other Place. The Lords amendments are technical and complex and I would like to speak briefly to new clause 21 explain how this evolved over time for the benefit of members across the House. The previous amendment, new clause 21, would have compelled authorities to correct the datasets they hold in relation to sex and collect data on the protected characteristic of sex in the accordance with the definition set out in Supreme Court judgement, i.e., biological sex.

It would have allowed public authorities to collect data on acquired sex where collect data on acquired sex where this is relevant and lawful. No new obligations in relation to the correction of data held by public authorities, the obligation already exists under UK GDPR. It simply put in a timescale for correcting data on sex. We know that this correction is much needed and long overdue. To address a misconception, amendment or new clause 21 was silent on how sex is recorded in physical and digital forms of identity or those holding a gender recognition certificate.

This is a sensitive issue for the 8,500 holders. We hope that clarification in this area will be given. It will be up to the Secretary of State to see how this is implemented in digital verification services. This issue does not affect a clear obligation that exists in law to record data on sex accurately. Amendments 32, 30 2C, 30 2B, together, compel the Secretary of State to examine whether the public authorities that will act as data sources for digital verification system services ascertain sex data reliably in accordance with biological sex and sex is recorded on the gender recognition certificate.

This will prevent inaccurate sex data from being entrenched and proliferated in the digital verification services the digital verification services system. Clause 52, 50 2B and 50 2C gives the Secretary of State power to define sex data as biological sex and sex is recorded in the gender recognition certificate. This can be applied across the digital verification services system, register of births and the and other circumstances were public authorities record personal data. These amendments are critical for correcting our compromised datasets on sex and will ensure poor quality and inaccurate data does not undermine digital verification services.

If our amendments do not make it into the act, this bill will bring forward self ID through the back door and risk the protections Self ID is not and never has been the position in UK law. I do not understand why the government is resisting these measures. Digital verification systems seem to be trustworthy to deliver the benefits intended by the bill. If they are not trustworthy, the system will fail and I commend these vitally important and much needed amendments to the House.



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I would like to join in thanking the work of many members, especially the work of many members, especially from the other place. And the work of many members across this House of many members across this House and the cross-party work, including constructive discussion on a lot of constructive discussion on a lot of elements of this bill. Today I would like to speak specifically to like to speak specifically to amendment 40 9B. I am lucky enough to represent a part of Hertfordshire
17:26
Victoria Collins Portrait Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)
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that is part of British creativity. Eric more -- Morgan from Morecambe and Wise, painters who paint our lives with joy and colour that only Our area has been featured in Harry Potter and pubs featured in films like Bridget Jones. But today the legacy faces the threat, the current situation is more than just alarming, it is threatening the essence of our national identity and creative economy. We hear concerns about resources for protecting the creative sector but the argument misses the point, the creative industries contribute £126 million for our economy, ploy 2.4 million people and are growing faster than the wider economy.

The question is not whether we can afford to protect these industries, it is whether we can afford not to. When we invest in enforcing copyright protections, we are investing in safeguarding one of Britain's greatest economic assets and competitive advantage on the world stage. The transparency in amendment 40 9B are essential and proportionate, apply proportionately to businesses of different sizes while ensuring our creative powerhouse can continue to thrive and work hand-in-hand with technology. True leadership in artificial intelligence means building respectful creativity, not exploitation.

This is not about resisting technology, it is about recognising value and safeguarding innovation. That brings me back home to Berkhamsted. In the heart of my constituency, since the British Film Institute National archives. One of the largest and most significant film collections in the world, comprising over 275,000 titles and 20,000 silent films dating back to 1894. A living memory of our national story told on screen. Would we allow anyone to walk in and take whatever they like? Would we let them scan, copy and republish those works without permission or compensation? Of course not.

I asked the Minister why would we allow the same thing to happen in the digital world? This is a defining moment, we can build a future that respects and builds creativity or one which restricts. Will we stand for a future where technology and creativity flourish together? Or will we allow it to be hollowed out for short-term gain. I urge to stand up for transparency and say that creativity matters.

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I rise to speak to clauses 40 3B

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I rise to speak to clauses 40 3B on scientific research and on safeguarding and ensuring the exemption measures contained in the bill are used for the purposes of scientific research and scientific scientific research and scientific research alone. The second reading of the bill, the Minister was unable of the bill, the Minister was unable to address the points I raised because he ran out of time given the because he ran out of time given the extensive debate of eye and extensive debate of eye and copyright.

And rather feel the same thing has happened again today. In the meantime the Minister did write the meantime the Minister did write to me extensively with... To address to me extensively with... To address the concerns I raised. While I do not think all of my concerns were
17:29
Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)
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not think all of my concerns were fully addressed, I was convinced that the Minister does not intend, the government does not intend for this measure to widen the circumstances under which data can be reused without consent for be reused without consent for scientific research. The examples are if data would be used for the training of artificial intelligence models which were not contributing to creative, scientific research. All scientific research is creative, simply if it is reproducing findings, it is creating confidence in the stock of scientific knowledge.

I understand the Minister does not intend to create a wild Something up he can confirm it is not the policy intention or effect of the provisions to enable the use of personal data for artificial intelligence. The Minister makes a hand signal. I am of the view that hand signals are not reflected in Hansard. And as far greater knowledge of the proceedings of the House than I do. But if the Minister would like to intervene on me, you can do so.

can do so.

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I'd like to thank the Minister

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I'd like to thank the Minister for that innovative intervention and I look forward to my future happiness. On that basis, I think happiness. On that basis, I think that we can work together to ensure with the Select Committee and with his reassurances to ensure that the his reassurances to ensure that the bill does enable scientific research using the fantastic datasets, which using the fantastic datasets, which the UK is proud to have without the UK is proud to have without exposing the public to the reuse of exposing the public to the reuse of their data for the purposes of training AI models or for other training AI models or for other purposes, which are not -- commercial purposes which are not in the sense of scientific research.

the sense of scientific research. And pleased to see those And pleased to see those reassurances and I will not wish to reassurances and I will not wish to engage in further...

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In reference to the earlier exchange, if you remember the
17:32
Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)
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exchange, if you remember the ministers 60th birthday, you weren't really there but I wasn't really there. There is a profound disappointment today within the whole creative sector. Every single one of them really believed and hoped the Minister would appear today with something in the back of his pocket that he would be able to bring out and to give some sort of reassurance to the whole sector, to the many artists and creators across the country who are extremely anxious and concerned about the direction of the debate and conversations about the use of their work, who are really concerned that some of their precious words that they have put so much tears, blood and sweat into will be spat into one of these warts and reappear as some mirror, minor mirror of their words.

Today, no one has been satisfied with what has been said today. He has one less chance. I hope that in that pocket somewhere, he will give something, something to the creative industries. At least give them some sort of co- -- hope as we go forward. Because right now they are going into the next few months and years unprotected and they have nothing they could rely on other than what is in these amendments today, which I know for a fact the Minister will ensure are voted down.

Today has been curious. I have never seen this before. Financial privilege has been evoked for a particular amendment. I've spent 1/4 of a century in this House. I think I know why it's been done. It's so that the House of Lords get the opportunity again to bring back this measure. Can I say to the Minister, they are already designing it. This goes back down to the House of Lords and will be coming back once again. It is ultimately disappointing that they will not able to represent this...

This amendment has received overwhelming support from everybody across the creative sector that I really hoped we were going to be including it today. The only reason we are here is because the efforts of the members of the House of Lords, and usually one who doesn't pay them much of a tribute and Has worked on this. The government has done nothing to ensure the creative sector is to be protected. And we are saying that there should be more time as we go forward.

We don't have that time. The livelihoods of 2.4 million creators in the UK against exploitation from some of the richest companies in the world. If we continue at this rate, as I said countless times throughout this bill, soon there will be nothing left to protect. The thing is the government should have acted earlier itself. It should have taken steps to create -- protect creators rights as a matter of urgency. Instead of scrambling to try to find Instead of scrambling to try to find a way we had these reassurances.

The government 's amendments today, what they will do anything to set a timeline of several years before any resolution is reached on transparency. And I listened carefully, as I always do, to the Minister speak about transparency today. I don't understand why it cannot be done immediately. They had to do was tell copyright holders that their work is going to be used by one of the web crawlers. That's all they would have to do. Can be done really easily.

There is no technical problem about where transparency cannot be introduced as

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a priority. I thank the honourable member for

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I thank the honourable member for giving way. As Lord Brennan said recently, this bill as an recently, this bill as an opportunity to regulate for AI, boss that the government should be that the government should be getting on, rather than waiting for another bus several years down the road. This boss is leaving now. It road. This boss is leaving now. It is leaving along with the opportunity to protect our creative rates. -- This boss is leaving now. rates.

-- This boss is leaving now. -- bus. I'm concerned that the

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government will miss the bus. I've played with him for several years in the parliamentary and. Even years in the parliamentary and. Even if the government... It will be years before the creators have the slightest hope for protection against creative theft. There hoping to finally get some protection but have had their hopes set aside again. This amendment does exactly what the sector has been calling for for many years. The fact it has been brought forward is a credit to the sustained campaign from our artists in the creative sector who have organised themselves to efficiently and put such a compelling case that our constituents have started to understand the complexities of copyright law, and they now realise the value that has in ensuring that the artist they love, respect and like to listen to make sure their work will be recognised and compensated for.

Despite what the government says, merely forcing will government says, merely forcing will It is this that will prevent start- ups being burdened with overly onerous regulation. In fact, all this legislation does is put to the UK start-ups on a level playing field with US tech giants who gain an unfair competitive advantage by ignoring copyright law. Transparency will make the risk of copyright infringement to great for AI to break the law. It well established precedent or kill -- and kill any argument that there is uncertainty in the UK the.

If you can see what has been stolen, it is easier to stop it being stolen and to get redress when it continues to be stolen. It is now up to the government to fix this. If they are serious about productive creative industries, and they should be, and I accept that that is what they intend to do, that cannot stop at working groups and economic impact assessments. There has to be a minimum. This is the last opportunity we have to put this case.

It's a black day for the creative sector. They hoped this day would be the day the government had come up with something to address their concerns. They were looking for anything from this government to see that they were clearly on their side and were prepared to do something. So the government now has a choice. I think we know exactly what is going to decide. Remove the amendment and turn their back on creative industries or find a way to protect the creative sector and make

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sure they back it. Minister.

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Minister. Thank you very much. I was anticipating more contributions from other members. It's a delight to see
17:41
Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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other members. It's a delight to see you in the chair and to follow on from the honourable member. I'm not going to speak at any rate length, members will be delighted to hear. First of all, I wanted to refer to the matter of financial privilege because the honourable member referred to are just now. Is not the government decides whether financial privilege is engaged. It's a simple matter that is decided by an advice by the clerks to the chair because it is a simple matter determined from two motions from 1671 and 1678 where there is any financial implication of a bill or in this case for an amendment that comes from the House of Lords and it is a simple matter as to whether or not the financial privilege of the house of commons is engaged.

-- House of Lords. I will give way in one

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second. The money resolution was passed at second reading. I looked at the money resolution and there's nothing money resolution and there's nothing that said there were any measures. that said there were any measures. I'm a bit confused as to why

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I'm a bit confused as to why financial privilege is to be rolled in on that basis. It's not government that invokes financial privilege. It's the house financial privilege. It's the house that does it via the speaker's that does it via the speaker's chair. As much as I love debating all the motions from 1671 and 1678, I think we might move forward. The only point I'd say to him about the contribution he's just made about contribution he's just made about the creative industries, and he knows that we agree.

If there were a knows that we agree. If there were a simple way of being able to enforce those rights today, I would seize it. He wants to write to me with a it. He wants to write to me with a suggestion on what that actually suggestion on what that actually looks like, what we could do today, then of course, I would be happy to look at it. I also said I would respond to the point to the chair -- from the chair of the Science Committee.

This bill creates no new permission to reuse data for scientific research. It is not the effect of the provisions to provide blanket approval of the reuse of personal data for AI training under the banner of scientific research. I hope that that meets some of the concerns that she understandably has. I know it's not in order but I'm going to say it anyway. Just and on this point. We have discussed some very serious points. I do just wish that member Monday when the Eurovision Song contest with the song What the Hell Just Happened, I wish Lauren Holly and Charlotte all the best.
17:44
None Portrait Division
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The question is that this house insist on amendment 32. Proposed to the words from the Lord's disagreement. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". Division. Clear The The question The question is The question is on The question is on the The question is on the Order The question is on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". The tellers to the Ayes Gerald Jones and Kate Dearden, the tellers for the Noes, James Wild and Gregory Order, order.



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171. The Noes to the left, 98.

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171. The Noes to the left, 98. The Ayes to the right, one --

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The Ayes to the right, one -- 371. The Noes to the left, 98. The 371. The Noes to the left, 98. The "Ayes" have it. Unlock. We now come to the motion to agree with the to the motion to agree with the Lords in their amendments 30 4B and Lords in their amendments 30 4B and 34 and 30 4C proposed instead of the words left out of the bill by Commons amendment 34. I call the Minister to move the motion.



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Minister to move the motion. Moved formally. The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their agrees with the Lords in their amendments 34 amendments 30 4B and 34 amendments 30 4B and 30 4C proposing seven of the words left out of the bill by Commons amendment out of the bill by Commons amendment 34. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No".

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The The question The question is

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The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the Order Paper. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". The Ayes have it. We now come to the motion to disagree with the to the motion to disagree with the Lords amendment 43 B. I call the Minister to move the motion.

The question is that this house disagrees with the Lords and their disagrees with the Lords and their amendment 43B. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". Division. Clear ...as ...as On ...as On the ...as On the Order ...as On the Order Paper. ...as On the Order Paper. As ...as On the Order Paper. As many ...as On the Order Paper. As many of that opinion, say "Aye".

Those in the contrary, say "No". The tellers further ayes Arturo Jones. The tellers further Noes Bobby Dean and

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Order, Order, order. The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right, The ayes to the right, 304. The ayes to the right, 304. The The ayes to the right, 304. The noes The ayes to the right, 304. The noes to the left, 68. So, the ayes have to the left, 68. So, the ayes have it. Unlock. We now come to the motion to disagree with Lords amendment 49 B.

I call the Minister amendment 49 B. I call the Minister to move the motion. The question is that the house disagrees with the that the house disagrees with the that the house disagrees with the Lords and their amendment 49B. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". The The question The question is The question is that The question is that this The question is that this house disagrees with the House of Lords disagrees with the House of Lords Lock the Lock the doors.

Order, Order, order.

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The Ayes to the right, 297. The Noes to the left, 168.

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Noes to the left, 168. The Ayes to the rights were 297. The Noes to the left, 168. The The Noes to the left, 168. The "Ayes" have it. Unlock. Order, order. I must now put the questions necessary to bring to a conclusion proceedings on the Lords amendments. We come to the motion to insist on We come to the motion to insist on Commons amendment 52 to which the Lords have disagreed, and to disagree with the Lords and their amendments 52, and to disagree with amendments 52, and to disagree with the Lords and their amendments 50 2B and 52, and to disagree with the Lords and their amendments 50 2B and 50 2C proposed to the words restored to the bill by the Lords to the bill by the Lords disagreement.

I call the Minister to move the motion. The question is that this House insists on Commons amendment 52 to which the Lords have disagreed and disagrees with the Lords and their amendment 52 The question is that this House insists on Commons amendment 52 to which the Lords have disagreed and disagrees with the Lords and their amendment 50 2B and 52 The question is that this House insists on Commons amendment 52 to which the Lords have disagreed and disagrees with the Lords and their amendment 50 2B and 50 2C proposed to the words restored to the bill by the Lords disagreement.

As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the The The question The question is The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, The tellers the Ayes are Kate Dearden and Gerald Jones. The tellers of the Noes, Katie Lam and

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The The Ayes The Ayes to The Ayes to the The Ayes to the right, The Ayes to the right, 366. The Ayes to the right, 366. The

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The The Ayes The Ayes to The Ayes to the The Ayes to the right The Ayes to the right with The Ayes to the right with 366.

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The Ayes to the right with 366. The Noes to the left with 98. So the Ayes have it. The question is that Ayes have it. The question is that this house does not disagree with the Lords in their amendment the Lords in their amendment proposed in lieu of amendment 55 and agrees with the Lords in their agrees with the Lords in their amendment 56B. Minister to move amendment 56B. Minister to move formally. The question is that this house does not insist on Commons house does not insist on Commons amendment 55, to which the Lords have disagreed.

It agrees with the Lords amendment 55 D and E, and agrees with the Lords in their amendment 56B. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". I think the Ayes have it. The Ayes have it. Minister

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to move that a committee be appointed to draw up the reasons. I beg to move that the committee be appointed to draw up the reasons be appointed to draw up the reasons for the Lords disagreeing to the for the Lords disagreeing to the for the Lords disagreeing to the amendment. I ask Sir Chris Brian to be the chair of the committee. That the committee to withdraw

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immediately. The question is that the

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The question is that the That That Sir That Sir Chris That Sir Chris Brian, That Sir Chris Brian, and That Sir Chris Brian, and attorney, Callum Anderson, Rachel Hopkins, Callum Anderson, Rachel Hopkins, Katie White, monster -- Doctor Ben Katie White, monster -- Doctor Ben Spencer. That the committee do
18:41
18:41
Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to The Russia Sanctions Act. Sanctions are a powerful tool in our armoury. They play an important part in They play an important part in promoting peace and security abroad, of holding international norms and rules and protecting our citizens at home. Since coming into power, this government has up -- ramped up government has up -- ramped up action. We have led the way in deterring and disrupting Russia and deterring and disrupting Russia and Britain -- Iran.

Last Friday, the Prime Minister announced new sanctions. This is the largest package of sanctions against the shadow fleet. According to some estimates, sanctions have crippled estimates, sanctions have crippled 200 ships, almost half of put in's 200 ships, almost half of put in's

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I will happily give way. Can I commend the Minister for

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Can I commend the Minister for bringing that forward. This house is encouraged by what the Minister said. The one thing that always said. The one thing that always concerns us is that everybody knows this, that there are frozen Russian this, that there are frozen Russian assets. Can government pursue those assets. Can government pursue those with a vengeance and with a zest? I with a vengeance and with a zest? I think if every squeeze on frozen think if every squeeze on frozen action -- Russian assets would action -- Russian assets would strengthen everyone on this site who supports Ukraine.



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supports Ukraine. Well, thank you and I thank my honourable friend for his steadfast support in raising this important issue. We have already ensured that important resource gets the Ukraine. I'm thankful for the speedy support across this house. It will make a tangible difference. Two thirds Of that funding has already been dispersed. He asks about frozen Russian assets. We are working at pace with international partners to ensure that Russia pays for the horrific damage and discretion it has done.

I can assure him on that point, and we will come back to the house in due course to update them.

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I'm grateful to the Minister. When he refers to the attempt to cripple the ghost ships and the fleet, does that have any effect on fleet, does that have any effect on the shipments of oil to third parties like India, which then parties like India, which then refine it and then sell it on to countries like us who are trying to

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sanction Russia? Minister. He asks a very important question. We take all possible question. We take all possible avenues to limit the Russian war machine and the revenues that come machine and the revenues that come from energy are part of that. We keep all options under keep all options under consideration. I won't comment on future actions for obvious reasons but what I can tell him is this action has had real-time impact, significant impact on Putin's significant impact on Putin's Sanctions program overall has denied Russia billions of dollars worth.

That would be enough to keep this were going for many, many more years. It has had a real tangible impact. Of course, action taken under the previous government and this government which has been accelerated will have a real impact on the war machine and I thank him for his consistent support for Ukraine and for these measures. We are committed to securing a just and lasting peace in Ukraine and maximising economic pressure on Russia which is key to securing that. That is why we are continuing to introduce sanctions.

We have now sanctioned over 2400 entities and individuals in the Russian regime and international sections -- sanctions have deprived Putin of millions. We have frustrated Russian trade. Imports to the UK have fallen by more than 98% compared to preinvasion levels. Exports are also down. We will maintain the relentless pressure on Putin alongside our allies to force him to the table and in -- ensure he engages seriously in negotiations. We want Russia to accept a full unconditional ceasefire to create a just and lasting peace.

We commend just and lasting peace. We commend On Monday the Foreign Secretary hosted foreign ministers to discuss joint efforts to strengthen European security and secure just and lasting peace in Ukraine. The House can be assured these conversations are part of all of our engagement partners and allies across the world indeed I had such conversations today. Time is now for Putin to come to the table and for Russia to show that they are serious about ending this war or face the consequences.

The UK stands ready to ratchet up the pressure on Russia so it ends its brutal war of aggression, we will continue to explore measures with which we can ratchet up that economic pressure on Russia. This instrument allows us to go even further in our efforts to target Russia's revenue streams and prevent the Kremlin from building its military and industrial capabilities. It introduces a 150 150 new 150 new trade 150 new trade sanctions, 150 new trade sanctions, this includes new innovative measures that prevent UK expertise from being used in Russia's defence and energy sectors, it will deny Russia sophisticated UK technology and software and it will expand our prohibitions with the aim of further constraining Russia's economic growth and ability to fuel that war machine.

I want to turn specifically to each measure within the The instrument introduces new export prohibitions on a wide range of goods including chemicals, plastics, metals, machinery and electronics. These will deny Russia the means to procure products that have military and industrial uses. Secondly we are extending our prohibitions on the transfer of technology, applying the prohibitions to a broader sector of technology route related to goods that are important for Russia's military industrial sectors and its economic develop in. Through these measures we are removing UK expertise whether that is contained in intellectual property blueprints or industrial know-how from his critical supply chains.

Thirdly this Relating to business enterprise, industrial design and oil and gas exploration and production, and of course as has been referenced already Putin relies on energy production and exports to fuel his war economy. Therefore the aim of the sanctions is to make key sectors of the Russian economy less productive and less able to fuel this illegal and barbarous war against Ukraine. Fourthly we are banning the import of Russian synthetic diamonds that have been processed in third countries and helium. These target future funding sources Russia is developing as well as potential circumvention routes.

Finally this instrument clarifies the enforcement responsibilities for a small number of trade sanctions on Russia, this will enable DBT's officer trade sanctions implementation to enforce certain trade sanctions offences and refer serious offences to HMRC for criminal enforcement consideration. To conclude, this government remains committed to European security and our steadfast support for Ukraine, we are committed to standing up for the values of democracy and the rule of law, values which continue to be attacked so brutally by Russia. attacked so brutally by Russia.

Sanctions including this important Sanctions including this important package are a key part of our efforts and I commend these regulations to the House will top
18:50
Wendy Morton Portrait Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)
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The question is as on the Order

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Paper. Shadow minister Wendy Morton. On these benches we support the draft order and all measures that bear down on Putin's regime and bear down on Putin's regime and undermine his ability to prosecute the barbaric illegal invasion of the barbaric illegal invasion of Ukraine. We support further measures on technology transfers of software, on diamonds and chemicals and the other measures to tighten both the import and export regime. Of course import and export regime. Of course all of these are built on the all of these are built on the critical mass of sanctions introduced by the Conservative government which, working with allies, imposed the largest and most severe set of sanctions that Russia severe set of sanctions that Russia had ever seen to cripple Putin's war machine we sanctioned around 2,000 individuals, companies and groups.

All of us should be in no doubt that the economic pressure we and our allies have been exerting means Russia cannot afford to sustain the cost of this illegal invasion. cost of this illegal invasion. Indeed Russian interest rates are at levels not seen for decades and welfare payments are being cut. The international community sanctions international community sanctions have denied Putin $400 billion of funds since February 2022, money it could otherwise have spent on the war in Ukraine. On that note I do want to push the government on four points today for because we must strive ceaselessly to constrain Putin's war machine and never see our actions as an end state.

Firstly we recognise there are measures in today's SI that will deal with specific issues relating to third countries. Can the Minister confirm whether his department is currently looking into why the secondary sanctions and if so what is the scope? What kind of diplomatic engagement is he having with countries whose economies are being used to circumnavigate international sanctions response and what measures is he considering on the big-ticket issues that are well understood in the south? Secondly, when it is his internal deadline for getting proceeds from the sale of Chelsea football club out the door and how exactly does he envisage the money being spent? Can he update us on the Foreign Secretary's engagement to date with the trustees with the government of Portugal and European Commission on this? We do need to act with urgency because we are talking about more than £2 billion and it goes without saying that this money could be a huge boost to the humanitarian effort supporting those affected by the invasion.

Thirdly can he explain why the £2.26 billion loan to Ukraine backed by the profits of sanctioned Russian assets is going to be paid by the Treasury over three years rather than in one immediate instalment, especially given it is earmarked for military equipment? And can he confirm with a simple yes or no weather work is actively ongoing within FCDO and the Treasury to find additional legal solutions to allow for the mobilisation of the sanctioned assets. Finally, has been much commentary in recent weeks about initiatives to secure peace but we urge the government in the strongest terms leveraged Britain's influence in every way that it can to help ensure peace is secured on Ukraine's terms.

As has been the case from the outset it remains ultimately for Ukraine as a proud and sovereign nation that has sacrificed so much to defend itself and the fundamental freedoms that we all hold dear to decide on its own future. Of course we want this terrible war to be brought to an end like President Zelenskyy we hope for a lasting reliable piece. But the Euro Atlantica community must continue to be intensely robust in the face of Putin's aggression. The lesson of the last 20 years is clear, he only comes back for more.

Today we have the added threat that the axes of authoritarian states is collaborating to wreck destruction on our own continent with Iran providing weapons and North Korea providing troops to support Putin. We even understand a number of Chinese civilians are supporting Russia's campaign. The stakes could not be higher but there remains nothing inevitable about a victory for Russia. Who thought it could capture Kyiv and subject Ukraine might subjugate Ukraine within days. Three years on the Costa Russia has been enormous and unsustainable.

We been enormous and unsustainable. We acknowledge the government is now proud -- proactively seeking to end the war by negotiations and that this takes UK policy on Ukraine in a new direction, we must also remember that we and our NATO allies have a collective GDP 20 times greater than rushes under collective defence individually many times larger than Putin's. Ukrainians are fighting valiantly and we must ensure they have the capabilities they need in their hands and the diplomatic support they require. The government needs to bring allies with us in supporting Ukraine to achieve a just

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and fair piece on its terms. Liberal Democrat spokesperson
18:55
James MacCleary Portrait James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson I would like to start by congratulating the Minister and the government for their work to date on government for their work to date on sanctioning Russia. The UK must continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies and the brave Ukrainian people in resisting Putin's aggression. The support for Ukraine across this House sends a strong message to the Kremlin. We welcome this latest that Adrian which rightly tightened the screw on Russia's ability to wage its illegal war. These amendments expand our sanctions regime in three important ways first by extending export bans on a wide range of products, chemicals, electronics, plastics metals and machinery.

We are further disrupting the industrial base that fuels Putin's war machine. Second by banning transfer of associated software and technical knowledge including cloud-based solutions we prevent the back door flow of intellectual capital into the Kremlin's hands. Thereby introducing import bans on Russian synthetic diamonds and helium products even when processed in third countries we cut off future revenue streams to help fund this war. These measures will respond to the real world attempts by Russia to sidestep sanctions by using complex supply chains and third country networks.

They align the UK with our allies, the EU, the United States and the G7, making our collective response far more powerful than going alone. While I support these measures I hope that ministers will consider going further. If the government is serious about holding Putin to account then sanctions must not only be enforced they must be escalated. The little Democrats been saying this for months but the UK should begin the seizure not just the freezing of Russian state assets.

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I'm grateful to my honourable friend for what he is laying out and friend for what he is laying out and I agree with him that support these measures across this House is really powerful, I was most recently in powerful, I was most recently in Kyiv two weeks ago and the looks on the faces of the people who had been the faces of the people who had been subjected to warcrimes from the Russian army will stay with me through for a very long time.

But underlying to me the importance of underlying to me the importance of our efforts as the UK in supporting them and I completely agree with the pointy is making about moving from pointy is making about moving from freezing to seizing Russian assets. The Minister and the Foreign The Minister and the Foreign The Minister and the Foreign Secretary earlier that this week talked about working on a multilateral basis I wonder if he agrees with me that if that agreement can't be found that we should consider moving on a

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should consider moving on a unilateral basis in a leadership role from the United Kingdom? I thank her for her intervention

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I thank her for her intervention and absolutely there are 22 billion in frozen assets or estimated 22 billion from Russian Central Bank reserves held locked up in the UK at the moment. That is money that could and should be used to help rebuild Ukraine, provide humanitarian assistance and purchase the materiel Ukrainians need to defend themselves in the UK should certainly be taking a leadership role in seizing those assets as soon as we can. The United States is removing this direction and so are EU member states but United Kingdom should be leaving not lagging behind.

We must also close loopholes that allow Russian oligarchs to continue laundering their dirty money in London that means properly resulting the National Crime Agency strengthening climate legislation and demanding use of sanctions not just for individuals but for their family members as well. When wealth is transferred in an attempt to dodge accountability. Also as a member of the U.K.'s Parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe I strongly support the register of the Council of Europe have established UK has taken a leading role in to record the damage done by Russia to Ukraine.

I know the government is backing the work they are doing but hope the ministers will promote the register because it doesn't have a very high-profile moment to ensure victims claims are poppy documented and Russia is held meaningfully to account for its actions will stop let's not forget that Putin's ambitions don't end with Ukraine. He is actively working to destabilise other sovereign states including Georgia, Moldova, Romania, Bosnia and Herzegovina and others in a wider attempt to erode European stability and democratic resilience. Let me be clear the Liberal Democrat leaving the law, the sovereignty of nation, the rights of people to choose peace over tyranny.

Putin's war as a grotesque assault on all of war as a grotesque assault on all of This legislation is a necessary step but it must be the beginning not the end of our efforts to hold Putin and the Russian state to account. We support the motion today but we will support the motion today but we will keep pushing this government to be bolder, faster and more determined in a support Ukraine and this defence of the values we all hold dear. dear.
18:59
Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Can I thank all of the honourable and right honourable members who have contributed to this debate and I think the measures introduced by this instrument show how the UK continues to use its powers to apply further pressure on Putin and that crucially is to help support secure and enduring peace and show that we remain fully behind Ukraine. I really welcome the strong support there always is across this House from almost everybody, I note again a party that is absent today, but we have strong support we may have disagreements across this despatch box with the Official Opposition but on Ukraine that has been unity and

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I'm glad that's continued, I thank them for that and indeed the liberal democrats and other parties as well With regards to regulations does the Minister also agree the need to the Minister also agree the need to be worked on the shadow war fleet out there supplying money and out there supplying money and He may have missed earlier on but I did outline actually a significant amount of work done on this including targeting hundreds of vassals having a real impact, I will come onto that in a moment.

The shadow minister asked me a number of specific questions, she asked about

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specific questions, she asked about Order. We must now take a motion

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Order. We must now take a motion referring to deferred divisions. The question is that the motion referred question is that the motion referred to deferred divisions. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". I think the

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Ayes have it. The Ayes have it. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On third country circumvention, the shadow minister asked me what action shadow minister asked me what action has been taken. I can assure her has been taken. I can assure her this has been a high priority for me and the Foreign Secretary. We have countries we particularly focused on. We have a list of particular on. We have a list of particular items which are of the most value to the Russian military-industrial complex and put them on a high complex and put them on a high priority list.

We have also taken robust action against entities and individuals who have been involved individuals who have been involved in those matters. We set out a number of those measures and past number of those measures and past sanctions packages, and I'm raising sanctions packages, and I'm raising them on an almost weekly basis to try and bear down on that. She asked specifically about Chelsea FC specifically about Chelsea FC proceeds. We are doing everything we can to bring that about quickly. This is a complex legal issue but we are working with our international are working with our international partners and we have engaged with Abramovich's team and we are exploring all options to ensure that the proceeds reach those in need in Ukraine.

She asked about funding. That funding is already at the door. I spoke to Ukrainian ministers about that and ability two availability. -- Availability. She might want to get a copy of that. We can make sure she gets that letter and there are technical and other reasons for that. We will make sure that you can guess what it needs now to deliver its own defence. She asked about the Russian sovereign assets and the Liberal Democrats raise this as well.

We are working at a pace on this with others and we are exploring all lawful options to make sure that Russia pays. We have been leading. We have not been lagging. The loan is testament to our leadership on this issue. I can assure the Liberal Democrats we are engaging very closely with international partners on this. The Foreign Secretary said yesterday. She rightly talked about the importance of continued and absolute support for Ukraine and I can assure support for Ukraine and I can assure her that is the case.

President Zelenskyy and President Trump are seeking a ceasefire. This is crucial and we will continue to work with them on that. We will continue to support Ukraine in its endeavours. She rightly drew attention to North Korea, Iran and others in supporting Russia's barbarous actions. We have taken actions on many of those things. The Liberal Democrats raised some other points. I hope to be able to have more news imminently to be able to update the house on these matters.

I promise we have been undertaking an important review or enforcement of sections across government -- enforcement of sanctions. I hope to have an update sanctions. I hope to have an update very, very soon. Were also taking a series of measures and working with the departments to ensure that London and our country and wider British family are not used to support kleptocrats in contrast with our national interests and Ukraine's interest. He referred to the important role of the Council of Europe.

I agree with him. Lord Collins is currently attending the Council of Europe and serial. We have taken important work there. -- Council of Europe ministerial. There is a special tribunal against Russian aggression, at which the Foreign Secretary spoke yesterday. There were rightly a number of questions about the impact this is having. This is a substantial. The Russian government has been forced to take its first major tax hike in more than 20 years, following its first loss in 25 years.

Gazprom have lost 12.9 have lost $12.9 in 2024. Russian oil delivery takes significantly longer due to sanctions, showing how are sanctions

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have disrupted and impeded Russian trade. I will happily give way one last time. Just on the ways in which we

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Just on the ways in which we disrupt the Russian regime, could he perhaps say a few words on those within Russia who are actually within Russia who are actually resisting the regime itself? And cigarette pressure being put on Russia but we sometimes forget about Russia but we sometimes forget about the people within Russia who put themselves at huge risk to resist the actions of the Russian president. Could he mention how we support them in their actions when they stand up bravely and resist the

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regime in Russia? He asks an important point. Of

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He asks an important point. Of course, our opposition here is to Putin's regime and what they're Putin's regime and what they're doing in Ukraine. We don't have quarrel with Russian people or quarrel with Russian people or Russia. It's what he is doing and what he has got his country to. It was hugely humbling recently to meet with members of the Russian with members of the Russian opposition, including someone who was imprisoned. Absolutely abhorrent was imprisoned. Absolutely abhorrent actions.

In conclusion, these measures are hugely important. Are having an impact. I welcome unified support across the house. I commend

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these regulations to the house. The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper. As many of that opinion, say
19:07
None Portrait Petitions
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Paper. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". I think the Ayes have it. The Ayes have it. Motion number six on the appointment of late member -- lay member. The question is as on the Order Paper. As many of that opinion, say "Aye". Those in the contrary, say "No". I think the Ayes have it. The Ayes have it. Petition.

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Thank you. For three years, the

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Thank you. For three years, the Marsh Lock Horsebridge has been closed. The position I -- the closed. The position I -- the petition I presented today has over 6000 signatories started by nine- year-old Victoria who is in the galleries today, calling for the bridge to be reopened. I welcome bridge to be reopened. I welcome news from the Environment Agency. There is only partial funding and There is only partial funding and the future is still uncertain. I take this opportunity to put on record my regret at the closure of record my regret at the closure of an event due to the sewage crisis.

The EA must be given resources The EA must be given resources needed to keep our river thriving economically and safe for all users. Conditioners -- petitioners therefore request that the House of therefore request that the House of Commons take immediate action to encourage the Environment Agency to repair the bridge and the petition repair the bridge and the petition

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Petition. Repairs to Marsh Petition. Repairs to Marsh Lock Horsebridge. Petition, Jerome Mayhew.

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Mayhew. Thank you. The largest town in my constituency has not had a permanent constituency has not had a permanent post office for over five years. The town's high street banks are also town's high street banks are also closing one after the other, leaving access to cash deposits for local businesses. This paper petition for a permanent post office together a permanent post office together with an online similar version has collected over 1000 signatures to solve these problems. It declares that residents of villages need that residents of villages need access to a permanent post office to service the needs of the community.

It asks that the government work with the banks to provide a long- with the banks to provide a long- term solution to provide access to cash and postal services to a permanent post office in the heart permanent post office in the heart
19:10
None Portrait Adjournment: Environmental impact of plastic recycling in Leamington
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of faith in him. -- Fatenham. They

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Fakenham. I beg to move that this house do

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now adjourn. The question is that this house do now adjourn. Matt Western. do now adjourn. Matt Western. Imagine being unable to Imagine being unable to sleep because of flies landing on your because of flies landing on your face. Flies everywhere and every room of your house. And business premises, pubs, restaurants and premises, pubs, restaurants and takeaways. Permeating lives whether at home, working the streets or when at home, working the streets or when driving your car.

This is the reality for hundreds of families in reality for hundreds of families in one part of my constituency. If that is not sufficiently real for those present, let me try further to bring present, let me try further to bring it alive just how awful this is with the experience of one resident. This resident wrote to me saying, the day my son asked when mummy was going to stop flies so he could eat his dinner without flies crawling into his mouth, that was when I realised how terrible it had got.

Imagine children unable to eat without flies floor -- crawling into their mouth. Well many may feel disillusioned with politics, it is more important than ever that government, national and local, address the problems that impact people's eyes. The issue of flies, orders -- and odours... As many as 10,000 of my constituents are impacted by this. They face swarms of flies and foul odours. This is the third year running. There homes are infested with flies, unable to open windows for fear of flies entering.

Unable to prepare food without the constant cleaning of their work surfaces to clean the of their work surfaces to clean the fly excrement. With any member of this house be satisfied with their family living like this? Now, this is not just a minor inconvenience, this is ruining people's lives.Think ill and some residents are actually selling up. Secondly, there is the all pervasive foul-smelling order. Constituents describe the smell being like raw sewage. Sulphuric and toxic. Many have told me the smell is utterly unbearable.

I have smelted myself on many occasions. This is substantially harming people and their lives. To constituents have told me that their asthma has significantly worsened due to the smell and as a result, they have had to increase their medication. This is clearly a public health risk. It should be treated as such. I hope I have just briefly spelt out how awful this is for my constituency. I've asked to try to imagine how that is. It should not have been allowed to continue for three months, let alone three years.

Some may be thinking that this sounds not too dissimilar to the plague of fires in the book of Exodus but God is not to blame for this. The residents agree. They believe the source of this problem is the recycling plant. I agree with them. It is less than 200 m from a significant volume of local housing. I'm by no means anti recycling. We know recycling plants have a huge role to play in society. This is not an issue about recycling but it's about how businesses are being held to account and authorities demanding they take seriously their commitment to their neighbours and their impact on the local environment.

I will indeed give way.

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Can I commend the Honourable gentleman. I spoke to him beforehand. I'm almost flabbergasted beforehand. I'm almost flabbergasted at the fact that the council haven't taken action to address this issue. In the discussions the noble In the discussions the noble gentleman has had, what has the gentleman has had, what has the council tried to do to take away this enormous five problem? He is talking about the plague of flies. I talking about the plague of flies. I know the council seems to be to blame for this one.



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blame for this one. I thank my honourable friend if I may call him that, for his may call him that, for his intervention. The councillors have been involved. They have tried to been involved. They have tried to exercise certain powers, get involved and understand the nature of the problem but this is where the of the problem but this is where the Environment Agency has a role to play. Local environmental health, play. Local environmental health, which is the council responsibility, really has not got the powers, sadly, that they should.

This is really a case of desperately important planning legislation approved by the previous government The planning is not so much the approval, that we see them all over the place. But the failure to realise that commercial use such as the recycling of the packaging would have a significant impact on a residential area. There was no such approval given by the local planning committee, it was purely not for the actual use. The local geography couldn't be worse. Hundreds of homes stand along this road and thousands of that.

To have allowed a recycling plant which receives plastic covered in food waste on a daily basis Is absurd full stop these are Food & Drink cartons you imagine we all discard these daily. We put them into recycling bins. They can often sit there for a couple of weeks, then they get collected and they get taken to central processing such as here in my constituency. That is a perfect environment for flies to breed. This should not have taken a situation like this to make the issues of the planning problems so clear.

If anyone was in any doubt of the scale of the problem can I be categoric, I've had reams of complaints and evidence come into my office, there is a parallel with that dreadful Wally's quarry in Newcastle-under-Lyme that so many of us will have heard about over many years. Last Friday evening I alerted residents that we secure this debate, by Monday morning two days ago we had received over 100 complaints with over 80% blaming this one particular site, the site we believe to be the source of the problem.

When I held a public meeting over 100 people attended but hundreds more wanted to be there. This shows the strength of feeling This shows the strength of feeling Highlights to the Minister how badly this is affecting people's lives. To further understand the effects on people I conducted a survey, I asked on a scale of one to 10 how badly had the flies and smell impacted their lives over the previous two years, with 10 being completely. The average response was eight 10 being completely. The average response was 8/10.

To exemplify how awful this is for business I would like to read some particularly distressing quotes. I have to fly nets over my foster babies cots. Another, it is The flies affect every minute of your day from waking to washing, preparing food, working, cleaning trying to sleep. Another. I've had to come away from various activities around town including paying my respect in the local cemetery because of the smell. Twice it's been so bad I vomited while driving my car along he's got road which could cause an accident.

I hope for the Minister and those listening this highlights the severity of urgent need for action. For clarity can I reiterate these complaints have come in only in the past three days of my constituents can't sleep. The children cannot play outside. They cannot eat without being swarmed by flies and engulfed in disgust make disgusting smells, for the avoidance of any doubt of who the culprit is in I like to bring the ministers attention to some additional evidence firstly there That Rob only began after this plant opened.

One family had lived here for 30 years before this particular plant opened, they never complained about the smell or flies ever before. Now they say it is unbearable and this is not only residents complaining but former employees of this particular site. My office spoke to one such person who will remain anonymous but he said and I quote, conditions were so poor nobody should have been working there. They commented that when staff are walking around on site there were flies all over them and on their clothes fighting them.

There are expected to spend their breaks in a room covered in flies in any food they try to eat in there ended up with flies all over it. I have seen the evidence which I have shared with the Environment Agency, in fact I myself have been to the site and I have seen the piles of thousands of flies lying around the premises in the working area. This cannot be rights. As a health and safety issue for people to have to work there. In flies lying around in the washrooms of that business.

I cannot understand why it is still allowed to operate. The employees were no doubt over the because, they said, very was absolutely at fault and clearly the cause of the issue impacting the community. The local residents former employees and I all believe the circular polymer recycling plant are responsible for these issues. Here we are two years on and no respite other than the winter months whether flies beat -- abate yet the odours persist. You abate yet the odours persist.

You Complaint process and have I likewise? Absolutely. First I raised it with the Environment Agency's many times, I have repeatedly conveyed the severity of the situation and the impact on people's lives and after no success with the Environment Agency I turn to the previous minister under the last government. After months of correspondence I have secured a meeting with that minister in May 2024. But of course that came to nothing before the general election. Following the election I met with the new minister twice who I know fully understand the severity of the issue.

The ministers swiftly set up an meeting with the environment agency to ensure the best techniques are being used, I appreciate the pace with which the Department have moved but my constituents need answers now. They cannot be kept waiting. I followed it up with the Environment Agency again just a few weeks ago in April to which they replied they have only received two complaints yet we have received over 100 in three days and hundreds over the course of three years and hear from residents on an almost daily basis that the problems persist.

They are ignoring the complaints they have received over the past couple of years before the -- because these residents are busy people who lead busy lives, they can't keep repeating the same complaint about the same company. They been reporting these issues for years, got nowhere. They can be forgiven therefore for not wanting to spend time every day reporting to a system they don't believe is actually working for them, they are fed up and rightly so. The environment agency has written to me to say that they did substantiate the strong odour on site and that they are now investigating this further and I quote, taking appropriate steps to ensure that they comply with all the requirements to mitigate any potential impact on the local community.

By coincidence the Environment Agency came back to me just yesterday, perhaps because I had an Adjournment Debate tonight. I've been chasing them for 18 months for action on this issue. Because my community these residents their community these residents their lives are blighted by this. The EA has said they are happy to meet with me again and are in the process of setting up a shiny new engagement website. But they are missing the point. May I point out to the Minister we are have already met on several occasions.

What we agreed in previous meetings with the need for officers on the ground to determine the origin of the flies and experience how awful the situation is and the source of the odour. They now believe us on the source of the odour. Where we are now is that it should not be up to residents to go around with flies what is in fly traps which is one of their suggestions to prove that the Environment Agency, to the Environment Agency how severe the problem is.

We didn't agree on the need for a new website, this is more time wasting and more faffing around while constituents go into 1/3 summer facing horrendous conditions at home in their gardens and their streets. The Minister may be new to this topic but I have heard this all before. Yet nothing has changed. They have now declared they will require advance notice of any unannounced visit which I attend due to health and safety reasons for top previously I have as I said visited it and it was unannounced, I don't understand why that should be the case, why should I be prevented from trying to hold this is like that to account when they are causing an environmental hazard to so many hundreds if not thousands of my constituents? I take the health and safety concerns very seriously and if I smell foul smells and see swarms of flies biting my constituents lives I want to see I know the Minister in charge takes the issue incredibly seriously so I know I must insist the government takes action.

Under current legislation the Secretary of State holds the power of the Environment Agency and I quote, to agree the Environment Agency's overall priorities and objectives, to allocate resources accordingly. So the department has the capability to fix this issue and I would say now is the Time for Action. What am I asking for? An urgent review of the Environment Agency's initial decision and immediate unannounced visit to the site and repeated visits to the site with a team of environment agency officers to taste test the odours and count the thousands of flies and to visit neighbouring homes to see what it is my residents are having to cope with.

And to take their concerns seriously. When the Environment Agency wrote to me in April they said it would take appropriate steps after their previous visit. What has actually been done? I would appreciate if the Minister can outline what the EA has done since the last visit to the site on April 1. I would request an urgent meeting with the Chief Executive of the Environment Agency because it has now got to that level, the Minister supporting securing such a meeting. A directive from the Minister and the government to the EA is needed to get them to act and to act with authority.

Finally, if Barry polymer recycling plant is found to have breached regulations it should be shutdown as a matter of urgency. I'm not against recycling as I say, I'm absolutely for it, but I cannot believe this was allowed to be sited so close to so many thousands of homes. I will conclude my speech by making it crystal clear to the Minister, the Environment Agency and Barry polymer is that I won't allow residents to suffer more of this and I will not stop fighting for my constituents until it is resolved.

Thank you. Thank you.
19:26
Mary Creagh Portrait Mary Creagh MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Coventry East, Labour)
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Can I begin by congratulating my honourable friend and neighbour the honourable gentleman for Warwick & Leamington. I know this area well and I think he has made a very powerful and compelling speech on behalf of his constituents. We have got a commitment to transition to a circular economy and to try and prevent waste carrying in the first place but where does occur we need to manage it in the most resource efficient way possible and that is really important for the management of plastic waste so we want to minimise its use and it's clear we need to recycle plastics to prevent them being landfilled or incinerated.

But the litany of distressing incidents and the failure that he describes around the planning permission being given for this light industrial estate so close to residents houses and the dreadful examples he gives of children asking their parents about how can I eat my dinner without flies flying into my mouth, I think that is something we wouldn't wish on our worst enemies and I am truly sorry that his constituents have had to put up with this terrible to put up with this terrible situation.

Plastics for recycling come from a wide range of resources across household and industry and the need to be cleaned before recycling, that's a note to all of us when we chuck our dirty un-rinsed yoghurt pots into the recycling, someone has to actually deal with them later on. There is no such place is away. If we want the material to be suitable for remanufacture we have to clean up our own mess before we hand it on our own mess before we hand it on for materials reprocessing.

It is clear that in this case this activity has impacted his constituents and we do have regulations in place to protect regulations in place to protect communities. These recycling plans like plants are holders of environmental permits. Those permits are issued by the Environment Agency Impose conditions on operators about waste handling to mitigate, i.e. Reduce, the environmental risk such as odour and noise as well as other pollution risks. The Environment Agency regulates the holders of those permits by making periodic visits to inspect activities and to ensure that these are in line with the conditions of the permit.

I'm very pleased to hear that he also has been conducting his own unannounced visits and I do hope he finds a way to continue those unannounced visits or finding other people to do them for him in the event that he is barred. They work with the operator facilities to ensure compliance issuing guidance and advice and when necessary can serve notices on an operator to mandate actions to improve compliance such as changes to how they carry out the work or how risks they carry out the work or how risks are managed.

So I am really sorry to residents who are experiencing odours and flies in South Leamington Warwick Gates, Heathcoat and Whitmarsh. The environment agency and Warwick District Council have been working together to investigate these issues but having heard what he said tonight may I advise him, and I will do my best through my private office, that the Health and Safety Executive is also made aware of the unhygienic working practices that workers at that site are clearly experiencing and I'm very keen to hear about if it is bad in the neighbouring houses, what is it like for people to take their breaks and eat their packed lunches on that site, I can't imagine that it is NEETs modern working condition standards not meats.

I understand the plant in Leamington spa sources from largely municipal waste which cleans on-site before recycling into material to go back into manufacturing. The CITES permit requires an odour management plan which controls the treatment for the washing of plastic as well as several other potential odorous processes, odorous is basically smelly. As these activities are included in the permit appropriate enforcement activity can be taken should odours be assessed -- assessed as contravening this plan put up the odour management plan includes details about the storage and handling of incoming materials which themselves are recognised as potentially odorous, the current permit conditions in relation to the open water treatment plant to treat water used from the washing of plastics are being reviewed by the environment agency to ensure all required conditions are in place to regulate the activity and I will be asking for regular updates I have a regular Environment Agency update and I will be asking for this plant to be added to my risk update The Environment Agency was first Fly issues in July 2023 with a volume of other reports being reported in August as well.

They visited two sites in the area regularly, including the recycling plant, and requiring action to be taken against the flies. This was to monitor and consistently improve past and order management plans. This has been going on for nearly 2 years as he says. In terms of flies, in January 2024, and external entomologist, that's an insect specialist, was contracted to conduct a site inspection. Following revelations from them, improvement plan was produced with further action. Fly control boards were installed at the plant to kill flies and fly traps have also been installed inside and out to kill flies and other species of flies to be monitored.

The environment agency also asked for volunteers within the local community to conduct fly monitoring in their homes. And I do sort of agree with him. It's like, you know, whose job is it? I understand residents reluctance. Only one person responded. Perhaps if we say that data collection and evidence is a really important point -- part of compliance regulatory activity. If you want to take action, you have to have the proofs, essentially. I do recommend that he potentially re-engages.

In August and September 2024, the levels were not reported as likely to cause distress. Environment Agency continued to investigate all reports received and has done 26 unannounced inspections. Additional order inspections have been conducted in the area. I take on board what he says. My constituents -- constituents vomiting in their cars as they drive past. He has given a very graphic description of the impacts. And order assessment was carried out on 1 March. Multiple locations within the locality visited, faint and sporadic orders were identified but these were not detected at the site and you.

Since March, reports have increased. Again, it's a hot weather issue. There were 31 March, 32 in April. In April, the operator notified the Environment Agency of an issue with a tank and maintenance was carried out to address this. On 15 April, the EA required the operator to provide further information regarding maintenance of the wastewater treatment plant, staff training and order monitoring. The response has been received and is being assessed. Officers carried out further off-site immunity checks on 25th of April.

No odour or notably elevated fly numbers were noted. A further site visit was conducted further site visit was conducted last week on 7 May and no breaches were identified and there are no off-site immunity issues. The EA is committed, as I, to ensuring compliance at those facilities it regulates. I think you will agree that we have taken a very swift action to tackle waste issues across the country. The EA will continue to respond to reports of odour and flies and proactively inspect the site and any others which they consider a potential site -- source of odour.

The local council have worked together to ensure that residents are kept to -- up to date. I do understand that residents might feel helpless and hopeless and I do encourage them to continue to take action to continue to report fly, order or noise issues to the 24 hour Environment Agency hotline. These reports help the environment agency and partners investigate and assess the impact of all issues. I give

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way. I thank my honourable friend for her response and the her response and the comprehensiveness of it. Frustration is after two years, there is real fatigue among the community around fatigue among the community around the district council and the environment agency. Environment and health are not listening and taking this problem seriously. I don't this problem seriously. I don't think we can rely on them responding through online forms and whatever. The important thing is that if the recycling plan does not change, that recycling plan does not change, that is the last chance for them.

We've seen video evidence of them with flies flying around. This place flies flying around. This place needs to be shut down if there is one more example of them failing to maintain proper conditions in the work piece or wider environment.

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work piece or wider environment. I'm not able, as the Minister, to

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I'm not able, as the Minister, to pass judgement on any permitted operator, as it could be prejudicial operator, as it could be prejudicial , ongoing or potentially in the future, but what I would say to him as he has had a letter from the environment agency. I've seen that letter. I think what we must move from as a world where regulatory activity is focused on activity rather than on progress and I'm very keen that the environment agency should make progress with the flies, order and other issues that he has so eloquently spoken about.

I will, as I say, be keeping a very close eye on this and I will be pushing officials for clear and unambiguous action to make sure that if we have another warm summer, that his constituents are not suffering what can only be described as an utterly horrible and unacceptable living conditions. Thank you.

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The question is that this house

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that this house As many of that opinion, say "Aye". As many of that opinion, say "Aye".
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