Commons Chamber

Tuesday 14th October 2025

(began 1 month, 2 weeks ago)

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None Portrait Q2. What plans he has to assess land use changes in applications for new energy infrastructure. (905782)
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There. Agreed. Question number two. Mr Speaker. Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We are
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None Portrait Q3. What steps his Department is taking to tackle fuel poverty in Greater Manchester. (905783)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Number three. Please, Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Ensuring
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None Portrait Q6. What steps Great British Energy is taking to help public services use more renewable energy. (905788)
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Katrina Murray.
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None Portrait Q8. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of his Department's net zero policies on the manufacturing industry. (905790)
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Good stuff. Mr Speaker, for me. Minister. the despatch box is a question for my hon. Friend on a topic that. last.
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None Portrait Q10. What steps he is taking to ensure the forthcoming carbon budget delivery plan includes measures to financially support people on low and middle incomes. (905792)
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Please, Mr Speaker. Just to welcome. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the honourable lady for her
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None Portrait Q12. What steps he is taking to increase cooperation with other countries to tackle climate change. (905794)
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Tom Hayes Mr Speaker. So stay. Mr Speaker, with your permission, I'll answer questions 12 and 18 together. In the best traditions of
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None Portrait Q14. What steps his Department is taking to support breweries to reduce carbon emissions. (905796)
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will come, we will come back to you on P4 413. Will foster. We'll tell you, Mr Speaker. For the start. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We want to
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None Portrait Q15. What steps he is taking to support green energy companies to build onshore wind turbines. (905797)
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Invited to do so. question. Number 15, Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The
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None Portrait Topical questions: Energy Security and Net Zero
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. T Walmsley said. Mr Speaker, since the last oral questions in July, we've reached
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None Portrait Speaker's statement
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I just wanted to say a few words before we start statements about to a former colleague. Like pitching better known as meaning to us, who died during conference recess. Meeting was used universally, light and respected across the House, regardless of People's Party allegiance. Unflappable, kind principle. Incredibly active and held with great esteem by all parties. Being a chief success as an Olympian, a lawyer, and as a formidable politician in both Houses of Parliament, as well as leadership of the Liberal Democrats.

He was one of Westminster's most authoritative voices on foreign affairs, particularly in articulating his party's opposition to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. On a personal level, Meng was a loyal friend to me and my family. He served with my father on Trade and Industry Committee, where they conducted many inquiries, both notably the Iraq supergun affair. The two often vented their frustration. The efforts to get ministers and officials, or even fellow members to appear before the committee, were thwarted.

Despite this, their pursued requires inquiry fiercely in order to get the truth. How some things have never changed. I know Ming was hit especially hard by the death of his wife, Elspeth, and of course they were married for more than 50 years. Courage, wisdom, integrity were Ming's hallmarks. We have lost a dear colleague and for many of us, a wonderful friend. Our thoughts were with Ming, his family, his friends, is our lives across the political parties.

I their no point
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Ed Davey Portrait Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)
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To our. Dear friend Ming, and I want to Campbell.

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Campbell. He was. Obsessed with sport. As you might expect from someone

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As you might expect from someone who was the captain of the. Scottish men's.

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Team at the Commonwealth Games. I remember Ming talking about how he'd been captivated by the 1948 London Olympics at the age of seven, listening to it with his mother, and how he'd.

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Decided back then that he wanted to run. At a future Olympics. It's a dream of so many young boys and girls. But men, thanks to his determination, drive and work ethic, determination, drive and work ethic, actually made it happen. He represented our country at the Tokyo represented our country at the Tokyo Games in 1964. For a man once known as the Flying Scotsman, who set a new British hundred metres record at 10.2 seconds and who was probably the fastest person ever elected to this House.

Ming was never one to brag about his sporting accomplishments. In fact, he was such a gentleman. So adverse to boastfulness that could be hard to get him to talk about them at all. I get him to talk about them at all. I remember when Wayne Rooney broken metatarsal in his foot ahead of the 2006 World Cup. Ming had told us a story about he had, how he had suffered an injury before the 1964 suffered an injury before the 1964 Olympic Games and how hard he'd work to overcome it.

We were all begging him to go on the radio and tell that him to go on the radio and tell that story and encourage Wayne Rooney, a rare chance for the Liberal Democrat leader to break into the biggest leader to break into the biggest sports day story of the of the day. But Ming wouldn't do it. I have to admit, it was frustrating at the time, but it was also a mark of why he was so respected and admired. That level of modesty is rare in anyone, especially in a politician.

But those of us who knew Ming knew that was simply the kind of man that he was. It says a lot about Ming's many and varied accomplishments that his extraordinary sporting achievements being Britain's fastest man and represent his country at the Olympics won't be what he's most remembered for, nor will he be most remembered for his law career, though he excelled at that too. He was even offered the chance to become a judge on Scotland's High Court in 1996. But he turned it down because by then, as he put it, politics had got into his blood.

And so what Ming will most be remembered for is his enormous contribution to British politics, a parliamentary career spanning spanning five decades, including 28 years representing North east Fife. I got to know him early during his first Parliament, when I was the party's economics advisor, based in our Whip's Office. Even then, he already had so much gravitas. He was so charming, so thoughtful and so respected. Ming was among those few MPs who was genuinely a grandee from the first day they were elected.

But his calmness, reasonableness and intense decency masked a radical politician, a man who never forgot his roots. Growing up in a Glasgow tenement and who was driven by deep commitment to social justice. A man who said it was his role and the role of the Liberal Democrats to rattle the cage of British politics. And he did, especially as you said, Mr Speaker, when it came to foreign affairs and defence, on which he led for our party for over 18 years, including, of course, in the lead up to and after the Iraq War.

I remember how difficult the decision it was for us to oppose that war. It felt like we were going not just against the government, but taking on the full might of the British state and the United States. Two. The way Ming tackled it with his typically steady, forensic, lawyerly approach gave us both the confidence and resolve to speak up strongly for what we believed. He made our position firmly rooted in respect for international law, at a time when the world was in turmoil following those horrific terrorist attacks of September the 11th.

Ming provided principled leadership with his trademark combination of morality, courage and wisdom, and he continued to do so whether as leader of our party. A respected member of the Intelligence and Security Committee and the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, and in the other place. I benefited greatly from Ming's advice and guidance over more than 30 years, and turned to him often about foreign affairs in my own time as leader. I will miss his wife counsel, as I know many of us will.

But more than that, he was an incredibly warm and caring friend, a colleague with such generosity and humour. He called his late wife Elspeth his rock, and she was always by his side, mostly with a cigarette. And they were such good fun and such great company. It was once said of Ming that he runs the risk of giving politicians a good name. Well, he certainly did that. His passing is a moment for us to consider how we are all viewed as politicians, and what changes we could make, both individually and collectively, to further the cause of good, decent, hopeful politics something that Ming embodied entirely.

Ming Campbell was a dedicated public servant, a tireless champion for Fife, Saint Andrews and the United Kingdom, and a true liberal giant. I know all of us in the Liberal Democrat family and across this House will miss him

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terribly. But for the Prime Minister.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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But for the Prime Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On a point of order. Everyone in this House knows. What an honour it is. To represent.

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To represent. Our country. But for most of us. That appreciation.

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That appreciation. position. On. These benches, not from the. International running track, where International running track, where Lord Campbell of Pittenweem first represented Great Britain at the Olympic Games in Tokyo.

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In 1964. He remained quick. On his feet, Mr Speaker, as a

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On his feet, Mr Speaker, as a barrister before becoming an MP, where I'm. Told. He made the most of his talents

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He made the most of his talents by sprinting door to door. Whilst canvassing. Ultimately. Of course, he became a respected

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voice on. Foreign and defence. Affairs, becoming leader of the Liberal Democrats. This was despite many overtures from one of my predecessors, his old Glasgow predecessors, his old Glasgow University friend John Smith, to join the Labour Party as a young join the Labour Party as a young man. No Ming, as many came to know him, was determined and he knew his

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him, was determined and he knew his own mind. And he was authoritative. On the subjects that he was passionate about. So it was no wonder that he had the respect and admiration of colleagues across the admiration of colleagues across the House who recognised his wisdom and unfailing kindness. Over 28 years of unfailing kindness. Over 28 years of service as a member of this Parliament, today we remember his Parliament, today we remember his commitment to Scotland in particular, of course, to Fife, championing its industries from championing its industries from fishing to, in his case, flying, as well as becoming Chancellor of Saint Andrew's University, where he spoke of his joy at meeting students and young people full of hope for the future, a future he had done so much to shape.

Mr Speaker, it was a full life well-lived. Alongside Elspeth, his beloved wife.

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Of more than 50 years. We are all. Enriched by his sense of duty and

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Enriched by his sense of duty and commitment to this country. He stands in the finest traditions of stands in the finest traditions of this House. And so, Mr Speaker, it is a privilege on behalf of these benchers to pay tribute to the benchers to pay tribute to the Flying Scotsman. May he rest in peace.
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Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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of order, I stand here both as a friend of men's, but also as the current representative of his seat. It's. I know how much he felt the privilege of being elected to this House for 28 years as the representative for North East Fife. And I also know the very high regard in which he was held in the constituency. All I've had both myself and the MSP for the constituency, Willie Rennie, who was previously a member of this place, is very kind. Thoughts from constituents and stories about men as well, which we have taken to our hearts.

And he was first stood for Parliament in Greenock in 1974. Greenock is my home town. I was quite reassured when I was first engaging with men that we at least had something in common, and I think it was right what the Prime Minister said, that he had the opportunity to switch to other parties, but he chose not to. And although he first did in 1974, it took until 1987 that he was elected in north east Fife and showed the spirit and determination that he had as an individual, but also in the work that he did to build the constituency and build the local party there.

And I've had lots of thoughts from the local party too, and one of them, I thought would be worth sharing with the House, which was shortly after his election, which was a closely a close contest against the sitting Conservative MP. They decided to take a celebratory boat trip out to the Isle of May to see the puffins. Unfortunately, the boat broke down and the we and Elspeth kept everybody calm, and it was interesting that even people who didn't vote for him came out and rescued the boat, and that was the respect in which he was held.

Now, in his tributes to Willie Rennie, my constituency colleague said that men had had three careers in politics, in law and obviously in sport. He was a parliamentarian, he was a cake, he was an Olympian, he was a companion of Honour. And if any of us can aspire to the great heights that it reached, is worth aspiring to. And the Prime Minister also mentioned his chancellorship of the University of Saint Andrews, which he held for 19 years. And I know that the University are very sad at his loss and passing, and indeed the Right Honourable member for Kingston and Surbiton and I visited the university last week to meet with them and to discuss something.

I'll finish with just some personal memories. He was a great support to me, but I do remember when I was running for this election in 2018, there was a constituency luncheon North East Fife and one of the members who was supportive of my candidacy made sure that I was sat at the same table as Elspeth because I was assured that if I could get Elspeth on site, they would surely follow. But since I was elected, we would meet a every so often, every month in the Pugin room.

We would have a cup of tea, we'd have a scone, and he'd tell me all the things that I needed to be doing. And although the Secretary of Defence is not here, he would always ask me, right up until the last time I saw him about Leuchars and about what the Strategic Defence Review meant and how important defence was for him and the constituency. There is no doubt that the loss of Elspeth was devastating, and he was never quite the same, since. I think everybody would accept that when you saw him here.

But really up until those last weeks, he, although very frail, was absolutely still there and we had many great conversations. I saw him just the week before he died and it did feel like a goodbye conversation. I know that he will be much, much missed across this House, and I'm very grateful to all the tributes have been paid to him. Thank you.
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Alec Shelbrooke Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alec Shelbrooke MP (Wetherby and Easingwold, Conservative)
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Point of order sir Alex.

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saying that Mr. Campbell was a good friend of mine. There's a body called the NATO. Parliamentary Assembly, which hasn't been mentioned yet today and hasn't been mentioned yet today and for over 30 years, min. Campbell was a member of the parliamentary Assembly, indeed, only really Assembly, indeed, only really pausing when he had become leader of the Liberal Democrats. And when I the Liberal Democrats. And when I joined that body in 2015, it becomes apparent almost immediately of the respect that Min.

Campbell was held with across the entire alliance. with across the entire alliance. Indeed, with so many partner countries almost across the world, it didn't matter if we were meeting presidents, prime ministers or even royal families. Men would come into the room and greet the King of the room and greet the King of Spain. Maybe in the same way he would greet somebody in the tea room, and that respect shone room, and that respect shone through. I remember very clearly when he was chairman of some of the several committees, and sometimes several committees, and sometimes there are allies who maybe don't quite see eye to eye and got into some really heated arguments within the committee.

Mings simply hit the the committee. Mings simply hit the table and said enough. And the silence fell. That was the level of silence fell. That was the level of respect he had, and that was the level of respect he was dealt with. He, during the coalition years, was able to be appointed as leader of the United Kingdom delegation to the Assembly. When I had the honour of taking on that role, I don't think many weeks passed where I didn't telephone me on his mobile phone and say, Ming, I need some advice on this difficult situation that was happening, especially during the Covid years when we were trying to work out how we were going to make the annual assemblies and spring assemblies work online.

Ming was always there with sage advice on how to lead our delegations. But doing international bodies. One thing which is true, I'm afraid, is that we spend an awful lot of time in airports, especially when flights are delayed. I mean, always had a story and they were genuinely fascinating. And it's been mentioned about his legal career and one particular story I like because it showed his quick wit. He's able to move swiftly on his feet, which I understand for a Rea QC as he was, was quite important being able to quickly adapt.

And he said he'd been prosecuting a defendant who had caused a fray for drunk and disorderly, and he said he put the question so how much had you drunk. And apparently the defendant said, oh, about only 8 or 9 points. You said he paused. He said, are you meaning to tell this court that you drank a gallon of beer, and you don't consider that to be very much? He said. At that point, he said, I knew I had him and he would tell so many stories.

And not least, Mr Speaker, he was very proud of his time in San Francisco, where he was training to be a top sprinter. He said academically, it didn't go quite as well as it should have done, he said. I think I've just spent far too much time at the track. Mr Speaker, he was enormously respected across the world. As I've said, he was a great friend to me. He was a great sage. His politics were clear, but his party allegiances didn't matter when it came to important roles of state and the intellectual rigour, there had to be brought to some of these important issues.

Mr Speaker, I will miss him. I know a great number of people in this House will miss him. He truly was a giant of British

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politics. But for the Stephen Gethins. Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, I had the
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Stephen Gethins Portrait Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)
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Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, I had the distinction of succeeding Glen Campbell in this place. And whereas Campbell in this place. And whereas you probably wasn't unhappy that I'm not as current successor highly.

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Of his current successor. I have to say how highly I thought of him. But more importantly thought of him. But more importantly than that, I've heard so many nice stories today about his role globally. But I'm sure as the member for North East Fife.

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Has already. Reflected so beautifully. He was so highly regarded locally and when I took over from him, it was difficult to go to any of one of the 99 communities in his constituency

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99 communities in his constituency where there was not a story or there Also. As a colleague at the.

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As a colleague at the. University of Saint Andrews, he was an outstanding Chancellor and colleague. So I wanted to pay a tribute to somebody that I may not tribute to somebody that I may not have agreed with. But when we have that precious commitment, that precious relationship between constituency and. Member of Parliament, no one better replicated that in his day to day work. I

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that in his day to day work. I wanted to pay tribute to a European. And internationalist. But more than that, an outstanding local representative.

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outstanding local representative. Yeah. Point of order Tim Farron. Mr Speaker, on a point of order.
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Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)
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Mr Speaker, on a point of order. I would wish to add my. Words of tribute to my friend Ming Campbell, who had an impact. On me long. Before I.

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On me long. Before I. Met him. 1987 was the first general election I was active in, and no offence to any Liberal MP at the time when there none of them here present. Very impressed. Ming Campbell struck me as not being like other Liberal MPs. He looked like he could actually run the country and

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had a gravitas. Not how it took. This is a man

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Not how it took. This is a man not talking. I'm pretty sure that's what I said to my mother in the early hours. Whenever he walked, you know, when it was.

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know, when it was. On the 12th of June, I think Fife. From. The conservatives.

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The conservatives. You look the real deal. You look incredibly competent. And of course, in. The. Years that. Followed.

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Followed. He demonstrated. That. We've talked about. The Iraq war. But what Ming Campbell did, yes.

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Campbell did, yes. Applying his legal expertise and his insight into. International law as well as the law of this land, was a connection

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law of this land, was a connection this. Is esoteric. rights. About human duties. It's about.

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About human duties. It's about. Making sure that nobody is above the law, no Prime Minister and no president. And he made that clear.

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president. And he made that clear. And indeed cross over into public. Consciousness in. remarkable.

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remarkable. And I then realised I had a connection with him when I met my wife in the 90s, it turned out that wife in the 90s, it turned out that her now sadly late father, Mark Cameron. Opened the bowling with me

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at Glasgow Hillhead and they hadn't spoken to each other for like 30 odd years until Ming came to do a talk. At the University at Ambleside

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At the University at Ambleside when I was shortly after I'd been. Selected. And the two of them continued a

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Mark's. Passing. Just two years ago. In 2005, when I was elected to the late, great

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I was elected to the late, great Charles Kennedy was. Meant to be doing the constituency visit to Westmoreland. His son was born the night before His son was born the night before Ming got drafted in and at the last minute did two visits for me. And when you win by 267 votes, every single thing counts. I have him to thank for that. He became leader in 2006, and I had the honour of serving as his PPS during that time. And what insight and again to that, And what insight and again to that, the fact that he would obsessed with sport and with running, and despite the fact that this is a man who the fact that this is a man who could run 100m in 10s, he was incredibly generous in hearing the stories of somebody who was a 10th stories of somebody who was a 10th rate fell runner.

And so and as in my time as leader, he was a great source of advice, great source of source of advice, great source of wisdom. And then after that time, he, he and his wife Elspeth, who he mentioned would regularly come on mentioned would regularly come on holiday on Ullswater and they'd always make a point of coming to do always make a point of coming to do a visit in Westmoreland, whether we asked them or not. And. I and my recollection, we mean talking to the recollection, we mean talking to the local newspaper or the local TV and Elspeth, not only with a fan but

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with a with a pink cigarette holder and looking every bit what Lady Penelope Thunderbird would have looked like. In.

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Real life. And it is. Said, I remember. One of our. Joe.

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Joe. Drummond, once said that the best liberal candidate should dress to liberal candidate should dress to the right and talk to the left, and Ming Campbell bore all the airs of

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Ming Campbell bore all the airs of being an establishment figure, and was a radical to. His dying breath.

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He was kind, wise, decent, talented, loyal. He was my friend and I miss him. Yeah. But for Mr. Julian Lewis.
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Julian Lewis Portrait Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
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But for Mr. Julian Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On a point of order, I would like to state that Sir Ming Campbell, as he then was. Was the perfect example of how it's possible to disagree with another parliamentarian on a key issue and yet work side by side on other issues without any rancour or any reservation. My dealings with him didn't get off to the best start. We were generally on opposite sides of

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a debate about the. Replacement of Trident. Submarines and the replacement of

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Submarines and the replacement of continuous at sea deterrence by part time patrols. Nevertheless, once we time patrols. Nevertheless, once we got to know each other better on the Intelligence and Security Committee, we found ourselves making common we found ourselves making common cause on such issues as the safeguarding of the vital BBC safeguarding of the vital BBC monitoring service for the future, the need to enhance spending on the need to enhance spending on defence with an improved defence budgeting priority, and above all, budgeting priority, and above all, of the folly that could have happened of Britain militarily happened of Britain militarily intervening in the Syrian Civil War.

In short, men brought courtesy, In short, men brought courtesy, style, courage and grace to public life to the benefit of society as a

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whole. Before the Christine Jardine. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. On a point of order.
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Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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On a point of order. I would also like to pay tribute. To Main Campbell.

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To Main Campbell. personally. In later years, his political. Influence has hung over my entire adult life.

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adult life. As an 18 year old student at. Glasgow University, I heard about these three great figures.

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Of British. Politics who had studied together and been. Great friends. Donald Dewar, who became the.

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became the. Scotland. John Smith. Whose legacy as leader. Of the Labour.

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Of the Labour. Party is well. Respected. And of course, men. Campbell. And

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it was. His persona, his. Influence, his attitude to politics, his. Integrity.

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Integrity. Which I found. Influenced. Me was one of the things which which pulled me.

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things which which pulled me. Towards the Liberal Party is that there was. But the first time. I came across him personally, it

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I came across him personally, it was years later, about a year after he had. Stepped down as leader, when.

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I had to make my. Maiden speech to the Scottish Conference and discovered that I was speaking on a motion being proposed by Main motion being proposed by Main Campbell. It was, of course, and it comes as no surprise to many about

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comes as no surprise to many about Leuchars. ADF Leuchars is future and what we. Need to do to defend it, and that

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Need to do to defend it, and that was a kind of thread that ran through it. But then in 2017, when I was standing in Edinburgh West, he came and launched my campaign, helped me up a Chair so that everybody could see me and was just everybody could see me and was just there to be supportive. And I learned a lot about his kindness and thoughtfulness. A few weeks later, when my husband died and many took the time to take me aside and make

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sure I was all key and that I had the. Support I needed to get through

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Support I needed to get through the campaign. Most of all, though, I enjoyed my chats with them and a Monday in the departure lounge at Edinburgh Airport. He always had a tale to tell and he always had a tale to tell and he always had a kind word from my Scotsman column and my team and The Office were and my team and The Office were endlessly amused by how pleased I was that Lynn Campbell had even read it, never mind agreed with that.

He it, never mind agreed with that. He was in many ways, with that integrity, kindness, thoughtfulness.

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integrity, kindness, thoughtfulness. Everyone spoken about an example that we should all live up. To and trying to aspire to. There

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To and trying to aspire to. There was a certain restaurant in Pimlico, which I'm sure many of my colleagues are aware. Of.

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That we were, many of us introduced to by men, Campbell, and think of him every time we go there, think of him every time we go there, and I think we will the next time as well. We may make a point of going there and raising a glass to someone there and raising a glass to someone who's not just an example of what we should be, but perhaps what the world needs now more than ever

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amongst us politicians. Yeah. Gavin Robinson much, Mr Speaker. And a point of order. I think it
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Clive Jones Portrait Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)
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Will have been. Delighted with the tributes paid to him today by the Prime Minister. My right honourable friend.

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My right honourable friend. For Kingston and Surbiton. And many others. And just. As importantly. Elspeth will.

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As importantly. Elspeth will. Have. Been equally delighted and she will have been raising a glass

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she will have been raising a glass of champagne in celebration. Megan is. Remembered as a brilliant.

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Remembered as a brilliant. And successful athlete and an accomplished, distinguished advocate. He was a real fixture in this House, completely authoritative on foreign policy and defence matters for more than two decades. Less well remembered is that it took him three three elections and a decade to get elected to represent Bath, which he held then for 28 years. So he was. Sympathetic and hugely supportive of my similarly numerous efforts to win in Wokingham.

For all that patrician charm he deployed to win over judges in court. He was also a savvy street campaigner who could be underestimated by his opponents at their peril. On one of his. Many visits to Wokingham, he was asked by a local journalist why do you visit Wokingham so often? His reply was I man.

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And it was only ten years ago. I am determined to see that he is

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I am determined to see that he is successful and he was delighted when that investment paid off last July. He was very generous with his time and his advice. He was a very warm and generous friend to me, to my and generous friend to me, to my family and to many colleagues and many, many friends that he made in many, many friends that he made in Wokingham. Along the way, he will be fondly remembered by everybody who fondly remembered by everybody who knew him well and by wide agreement.

Meeting is probably one of the

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Meeting is probably one of the nicest people to ever lead a political party in the UK. We put welcome. Thank you, Mr.
13:10
Calum Miller Portrait Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On a. Point of order, it's an honour to follow the tributes of so many

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across the House. Min Campbell was an inspiration to me and to many courtesy. And tenacity.

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And tenacity. I was lucky to have known Meng all my life, and I know how much his death will be felt by his family and death will be felt by his family and the many friends who loved him. I shared their grief. Ming's athletic achievement showed a man determined to work hard and make sacrifices to push himself to the limits. His international success has already been mentioned, but I also remember him in his mid 40s at that point saying with some feeling that the annual school sports day had become a major focus since he was the one the other dads wanted to beat in the father's race.

Behind that gracious facade, there was a true competitor. Ming was one of those remarked that remarkable generation of Glasgow University debaters from all parties who strove for a better society across a lifetime. In politics, he maintained close friendships with those of other parties. Yet he was clear on his politics. Ming's tenacity was shown in his dedication to Scottish liberalism, working hard to win the North East Fife seat on his fifth general election, and Ming served our party for many years as foreign affairs spokesperson.

With his distinctive, eloquent delivery and his disarming courtesy, mien could easily be underestimated by some as an orator, not an actor. Yet his principled approach to the Iraq War demonstrated his courage and steel. He did not shirk from doing the right thing. For Ming, international liberalism was not an abstract ideal, but a set of practical moral obligations. As we say goodbye to a much loved parliamentarian, we also remember a private man. Ming's marriage to Elspeth was the anchor of his life.

The last time I saw Ming, he spoke with love and feeling about Elspeth. He was continuing his life's work in Parliament, but it was clear that he felt acutely that he was continuing it without his life partner. Theirs was a truly devoted partnership. Ming Campbell lived an incredible life as an athlete, advocate, political leader and loving husband. He was a lifelong liberal whose principles drove his choices. He is rightly remembered with admiration and affection. Today, across the

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House. He will be sorely missed. And that completes the tributes.
13:12
None Portrait Ministerial statement: Middle East
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And that completes the tributes. We now come to the statement, Prime Minister.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Minister. But thank you, Mr Speaker. Before I update the House on the peace. Process in the Middle. East and my trade visit to India, I want to put on record in this House my utter condemnation. Of the vile anti-Semitic terrorist attack at the Heaton Park synagogue in Manchester, which killed two Jewish men, Adrian Dalby and Melvin Kravitz. Mr

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Speaker, anti-Semitism is not a new hatred here in Britain. Jews have had to deal. With the shameful.

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With the shameful. Reality that their buildings, their way of life, their children

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their way of life, their children need extra protection. We must. Also be crystal clear that while

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Also be crystal clear that while this was an attack on Jews because. They were.

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They were. Jews, the Islamist extremism that motivated this sick individual is a. Threat to.

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Threat to. Every citizen of this country. An attack on British values, British

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attack on British values, British security and the British decency. That holds. Our communities together.

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Our communities together. Moreover, Mr Speaker, we can see clearly that anti-Semitism is on the clearly that anti-Semitism is on the rise in Britain once again say we. provide.

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provide. For Jewish people. We will set. Out. New measures to prevent. Hatred. Abuse.

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The democratic right to protest. We will. Stop at nothing. To root out.

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To root out. Anti-Semitism. And. Mr. Speaker, the same. Applies to the arson attack. On the Peacehaven. Mosque.

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Mosque. An attack. On British Muslims. Is also an attack. On us all.

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So we condemn this. Despicable crime and the poison

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Despicable crime and the poison of anti-Muslim hatred. We will fight against. Hate in

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We will fight against. Hate in all its forms. Mr Speaker. Let me now. Turn to the Middle East and words I have long to say in this House for a very long time. The this House for a very long time. The surviving hostages are free. The surviving hostages are free. The bombardment of Gaza has stopped. And desperately needed. Aid is starting desperately needed. Aid is starting to enter as a result of the peace plan led by President Trump.

We have the chance, and it is a chance to bring a terrible chapter in history finally, to a close. Mr Speaker, it's a moment of profound relief.

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it's a moment of profound relief. For this. House, for this nation, indeed

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House, for this nation, indeed for the whole world. But it is tempered, of course. By the.

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Knowledge that for the hostages and their families, for the loved ones of those killed on October 7th,

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ones of those killed on October 7th, and for the innocent civilians in Gaza, the dead, the. Bereaved.

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The starving. This has been two

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The starving. This has been two years of living hell. I think of Avenatti and all who has family ties Avenatti and all who has family ties to the United Kingdom returned at last to his family and to his

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girlfriend, Noah. Avenatti and Noah were taken from that music festival two years ago.

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that music festival two years ago. The footage of their abduction. Filmed by Hamas. Evil committed

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Filmed by Hamas. Evil committed to camera. I've met Avenatti and to camera. I've met Avenatti and family and heard for myself the agony that they suffered for two.

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agony that they suffered for two. Long years, waiting for him to come home. His frail condition, come home. His frail condition, shocking evidence of the appalling treatment he must have endured. Mr treatment he must have endured. Mr Speaker, we await the release of the deceased hostages. Those families deceased hostages. Those families need the chance to grieve. And so we demand that their return to their demand that their return to their families immediately. Mr Speaker, my thoughts are also with the people of Gaza, almost all of whom will have Gaza, almost all of whom will have lost family members, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters.

And of course, worst of all, sons and daughters. Over 20,000 children killed. I think of people like Yara Yagi, who I met a year ago, 17 years old. She was studying at college in Hertfordshire. She had lost 44 members of her family, 44. A pain that cannot be erased. Even as we welcome the peace today. But, Mr Speaker, mercifully, the killing and destruction has now stopped and aid is beginning to enter Gaza. But to be clear, we urgently need to see more aid and faster.

All restrictions must now be lifted. The need for food, sanitation, health care and shelter are still acute. While the signing yesterday was historic. What matters now is implementation and getting help in as quickly as possible. The UK is providing £20 million in additional humanitarian support to get water, sanitation and hygiene products to tens of thousands of billions across Gaza. That is in addition to the support that we're already providing at two field hospitals in Gaza, have already seen 600,000 patients.

And earlier this month, Mr Speaker, we evacuated the third group of sick and injured Palestinian children to the United Kingdom, and they are now being treated by the NHS. And we will work with the UN and our partners to go further and faster, to provide the aid that is so desperately needed. And, Mr Speaker, let no one be any doubt that none of this would have been possible without President Trump. This is his peace deal, delivered, of course, with President Sisi of Egypt, the Emir of Qatar and President Erdogan of Turkey.

Alongside our partners, we have also offered the UK's full support to these efforts. Mr Speaker, we've worked behind the scenes for months with the US, Arab and European nations to help deliver a ceasefire, get the hostages out, get aid in and secure a better

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future for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. I'm proud of our. Contribution.

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Contribution. And, Mr Speaker, we are in a position to play this role precisely because of the approach this because of the approach this government takes. And, Mr Speaker, that does include our decision to recognise the State of Palestine, because this move, taken alongside because this move, taken alongside our allies France, Canada, Australia and others, helped lead to historic and others, helped lead to historic New York Declaration, where for the first time, the entire Arab League

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first time, the entire Arab League condemned the atrocities of October the 7th, urged Hamas to disarm and. Crucially.

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Crucially. Demanded that they end their rule

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Demanded that they end their rule in Gaza. But, Mr Speaker, let me be very clear. While we celebrate the very clear. While we celebrate the relief of peace today, making that peace last will be no less difficult peace last will be no less difficult a task. Along with our allies, an absolute focus in the days and weeks absolute focus in the days and weeks ahead is the relentless implementation of this peace plan. implementation of this peace plan. That is no small challenge.

And so we stand ready to deploy our diplomacy and expertise in three key areas. First, to support the reconstruction of Gaza. It is an immense task. The devastation defies description, and it will require a truly international effort. But we are ready to play our part, starting with a conference here in the United Kingdom this week hosted by my Honourable friend, the Minister for the Middle East. Second, to support transitional governance arrangements in Gaza. We will continue to work closely with the Palestinian Authority on the vital reforms that they need to make.

And third, to help ensure security in Gaza for a ceasefire monitoring process. Planning for the International Stabilisation Force. And, Mr Speaker, drawing on our experience in Northern Ireland, we stand ready to play a full role in the decommissioning of Hamas weapons and capability because, as this House knows, there can be no viable future for Gaza, no security for Israel. If Hamas can still threaten bloodshed and terror. So we will work to put

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that threat out of action. For good. Because, Mr Speaker, this is the

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Because, Mr Speaker, this is the first real chance we have had at a two state solution since the Oslo two state solution since the Oslo Accords over three. Decades ago. So we are fully committed to this, we are fully committed to this, because a safe and secure Israel, alongside a viable Palestinian alongside a viable Palestinian state, is the only way to secure lasting peace for the Middle East. lasting peace for the Middle East. And I've been clear all along, Mr Speaker, that must be our goal.

So we will work now to follow through we will work now to follow through on the 20 point peace plan and deliver it in full, including by supporting a dialogue to agree on a political horizon for peaceful political horizon for peaceful coexistence. Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to update the House on my discussions with Prime Minister Modi

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discussions with Prime Minister Modi last week in Mumbai. India is a track. To have the third.

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To have the third. Largest economy by 2028. So in addition to the bond we already addition to the bond we already share, the living bridge of family and history. We are also united by and history. We are also united by the future and the incredible opportunities that we see before us. That's why back in July, we signed a historic trade deal, opening up new opportunities for British businesses in India. And that's why last week I led the biggest British trade

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delegation to India ever. We announced that more. British universities are opening

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British universities are opening campuses in India, making us their leading international education provider. We're deepening the UK India Technology Security Initiative to boost opportunities for our to boost opportunities for our brilliant tech sector, and we announced new deals and investments, including an advanced manufacturing, defence, car production and Bollywood Bollywood filmmaking here Bollywood Bollywood filmmaking here in the United Kingdom. These investments into the United Kingdom

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investments into the United Kingdom Speaker. They will create. 10,600 jobs. This is real change

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10,600 jobs. This is real change that people will see in their communities up and down the country.

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I set this out, Mr Speaker, because it again speaks. To our. Approach on the world stage as to

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our deals with the United States and the EU. And the. Approach we. Bring to crises and conflicts as

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Bring to crises and conflicts as well, because instead of threatening to walk away. Or indulging in the to walk away. Or indulging in the cheap political theatre that comes from castigating our allies. Allies that we need to deliver peace and that we need to deliver peace and economic stability in a dangerous, volatile world, we stay in the room.

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We trust in diplomacy. And we back. The reputation, talent and pride

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The reputation, talent and pride of this country to change the world to the benefit of the British

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to the benefit of the British people. A politics of national rather. Than against them.

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Than against them. That solves problems rather than exploits them, and that believes our

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openness to the world is what helps us take control of our future. Rather than.

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Shutting the door and hoping for the best. That is how. This government delivers. For Britain. Mr Speaker, and I

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For Britain. Mr Speaker, and I commend this statement to the House. Leader of the opposition can be
13:25
Kemi Badenoch Portrait Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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better. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I'm grateful to the Prime Minister for grateful to the Prime Minister for advance sight of his statement. I remember almost two years ago meeting three mothers whose children had been stolen from them on October 7th and held captive in terror tunnels. They were living a nightmare unimaginable for any parent. Many of us on these benches have met hostages. Their families heard their stories and supported them. Yesterday, it was truly momentous to finally, finally see the return of the 20 living hostages who are now back home in Israel.

After over 730 days in terrorist captivity, the hostages released yesterday showed superhuman endurance in the face of evil. And we sent every best wish to them and their families as they begin the process of rebuilding their lives. Yet we also mourn those hostages killed by Hamas and continue to call for all their bodies to be returned to their families. Mr Speaker, we must never forget what happened on the 7th of October, 2023, the abduction of men, women and children was a calculated cruelty to break body, mind and soul.

After after inflicting the mindless horror of rape and murder. There is no cause, no grievance that can ever justify what happened that day. I, for one, will never forget. And the response from some in the West, the equivocation, the indulgence in what about free and the drawing of false equivalence shows how far moral clarity has eroded. And we have got a job to do. Here at home, Mr Speaker, to fix this. So on these benches we stand alongside Israel in our shared fight against Islamist terror.

The conflict could have ended a long time ago if the hostages had been returned. So many Palestinian lives have been needlessly lost because of this war. Mr Speaker, Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organisation. A sustainable end to the suffering of civilians in Gaza means the complete eradication of Hamas and the dismantling of its terrorist infrastructure. Even now, we know that Hamas is still killing Palestinians in Gaza. The initial phase of the US backed peace plan represents a significant breakthrough.

I want to thank the US administration, President Trump and regional mediators for having secured this outcome. They put in the hard yards and found solutions, making clear that all progress would depend on the release of the hostages, a condition that some other governments forgot. Mr Speaker, with this peace deal, there is much to be hopeful for in the Middle East. If the Abraham Accords are expanded. A new age of peace will have arrived. We will see diplomatic normalisation of Israel with the Arab world, something many of us have longed to see.

And it saddens me that the Prime Minister's statement does not appear to show that the UK was at the heart, at the heart of any of these efforts specifically. It is quite clear that UK relations with Israel have been strained by the actions of this government. Their view, and they have stated publicly, is that it looks like, under pressure from his own backbenchers, the Prime Minister has taken the wrong decisions time and time again, diminishing our influence in the region. They can shout shame as much as they want you, Mr Speaker, within weeks of Labour coming into power, they decided to restore funding to honour.

We haven't forgotten an organisation, they say. Yes, that's an organisation whose members assisted in the kidnapping of these hostages. The release, which we are celebrating today. Relations with Israel have been so damaged that when Israel launched strikes against Iran, a country that has been a direct threat to us for years, the UK was out of the loop. They may not like it, but it is the truth. And then, in a move praised by Hamas, Labour decided to recognise a state of Palestine with no condition to release the hostages still held in the tunnels of Gaza, rewarding terrorism.

They made chanting from a sedentary position. I will remind them of what the former British Israeli hostage, Emily Damari, said. She called it a moral failure. I'm surprised to hear the Prime Minister say in his statement that it was a contribution to this peace deal. We all know that the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, condemned this recognition, saying it had made ceasefire negotiations harder. That is what the US said. The truth is, as historic events have unfolded in the Middle East, Britain has been out of step with the US.

The US ambassador to Israel even called the government's claim that it played a key role in the ceasefire. Delusional, something Israeli foreign ministers agreed with. Mr Speaker, I welcome the Prime Minister's promise to scale up protection for Jewish people in our country. Britain has always been a sanctuary for British Jews. But after the tragic murder of two British Jews outside a synagogue in Manchester, the government must now do everything it can to eradicate anti-Semitism. The anti-Israel protesters who have turned our streets into theatres of hate, have been relatively silent about the good news of a ceasefire and hostage return, showing us their real motivation.

The Prime Minister mentioned in his statement the Palestinian Authority. Can he tell us whether the government's preference for the Palestinian Authority to take the reins in Gaza, if they have committed to end the pay for slay policies, the reward families of terrorists for killing Israelis? Will it deal with anti-Semitism in education? And are they demonstrating any Democratic progress? Mr Speaker, there are also domestic implications. We need to strengthen our borders. Hamas is still running Gaza. Those who would be allowed to leave can only do so with Hamas's approval.

We should not be bringing anyone to Britain with links to extremism, anti-Semitism or to Hamas and other terrorists. So can the Prime Minister confirm whether he intends to bring people from Gaza to study for healthcare or for other purposes? And what measures are in place to ensure we are not importing extremism, anti-Semitism or anyone linked to Hamas and other terrorists? Mr Speaker, Britain is a great country and still a powerful one. We still have agency to shape the world around us.

The government must do better and show it has the backbone to use Britain's power to make a better world.

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I have no. Can I thank her for the.
13:33
Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Words she said about the hostages? Just a moment ago. And I hostages? Just a moment ago. And I know how heartfelt they are. I was surprised and saddened that she spent more time attacking what we actually did to help the process, than even mentioning the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, without setting out, in terms, the number of people that have been killed, that are starving, been subjected to denial of aid when the immediate task for any serious governments to work with allies to get that aid in at speed, I would have expected at least an acknowledgement of that terrible situation.

It shows, yet again just how far her party's slid from serious states, person approach to diplomacy. This is not the time for a fight about what role any individual played. I am proud, I am proud of what Steve Whitcomb said about our national security adviser. He he was negotiating this. He knows absolutely the role we played. And this House should be proud that we played that role. We played that role only because of the relationship that this government has with the Trump administration.

We are a trusted partner, working both before this, a peace deal and afterwards. And yes, I did discuss recognition of Palestine with President Trump when he was over here. That is what grown up, responsible partners do. Unlike the discussion here, and I stand by my words that the first time in New York was the first time that other countries in the region were clear in their condemnation of Hamas. That was a key and important aspect of what has now happened in relation to her questions.

She will know from the reforms that have already been committed to that the Palestinian Authority and any elections will not tolerate any election or of individuals or parties that are not committed to a peaceful process. That is an absolute red line. It is part of the agreement. It's what we've been talking to other allies about for a very, very long time on health care cases. Yes. As I reported, we have had health care cases coming to the United Kingdom and students.

And of course, we are extremely careful in the checks that we carry out on everybody that comes to this country, but I return, Mr Speaker, to the fact that this is a historic deal. It is important for the region. It is important for the world. It is to be celebrated across this House because of the relief it brings to the hostages and their families in particular, and to the many thousands of people in Gaza. And I was, as I say, surprised and saddened that she overlooked what to me is a really important part of the resolution of this conflict.



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Should have been, and I still don't committed, Sir Richard. Thank you.
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Ed Davey Portrait Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)
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Minister for advance sight of his statement, and I start by joining him in condemning the evil anti-Semitic. Terrorist attack that killed Adrian Dalby and Melvin. Kravitz at their synagogue in Manchester. Anti-Semitism must be stamped out, and British Jews must be able to feel safe. In our country. Mr Speaker, after horrific Hamas terror attacks of October the 7th and two years of appalling death and destruction since the cease fire in Gaza comes as an enormous relief to us all.

It finally offers a moment of hope, but it is only the beginning, and there is a lot of work to do. Already today, we can see how precarious the situation is with Israeli forces killing Palestinians. They say cross the yellow line and both sides accusing each other of violating the cease fire. So the immediate priority must

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be to ensure the ceasefire does hold. As well. As to make sure that life saving

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As to make sure that life saving food, water and medicine reaches all those facing starvation and disease. those facing starvation and disease. So can I ask the Prime Minister to set out in more detail what the UK set out in more detail what the UK is doing to get aid into Gaza as quickly as possible, and ask him to keep updating this House on those vital efforts. Madam speaker, it was so moving to see the images so moving to see the images yesterday of families weeping with joy as hostages were reunited with joy as hostages were reunited with their loved ones.

But does the Prime Minister share my anger and the anger bereaved families, that Hamas anger bereaved families, that Hamas has still not released the bodies of all deceased hostages? These terrorists captured innocent people, held them hostage and killed them. And even now, they deny their And even now, they deny their families the chance to bury them and mourn them properly. Palestinian families are starting to return home

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families are starting to return home to, but for many, their homes are now rubble. And the process.

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Of rebuilding will be long and difficult. A ceasefire is not the same as a lasting peace. Only a two state solution can deliver that. So welcome the Prime Minister's decision to finally recognise Palestine last month. And could I ask him what work he's doing with partners to help build a viable Palestinian state that can live peacefully, peacefully alongside Israel? And has he spoken to President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu to make clear that the expansion of illegal Israeli Israeli settlements in the West Bank must stop?

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Yeah. Israelis and. Palestinians have suffered unimaginable trauma. Much suffered unimaginable trauma. Much of it will never be healed. But today they can at least begin to hope that their children will go free of their this. Appalling cycle
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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free of their this. Appalling cycle of violence. Well, can I thank him for the content and tone of his response in relation to his questions? We are working with others on getting aid into Gaza. Until recently there have been mainly airdrops. Obviously what we really need is trucks going in and that's what we've been focusing on, in particular in the practical work that we were doing yesterday whilst we're in Egypt, and we will continue to do so, and I will take up his invitation to update the House in relation to that.

I do personally think that in these early days, it is probably one of the single most important things that we need to absolutely focus on because yes, it was a historic day, but implementing this is really important that any misstep, any step backwards, would have the potential to undermine what actually happened yesterday in relation to the bodies. I absolutely agree they must be released. Those poor families need to be able to grieve properly and they cannot do so. And it is cruel that they've been held so long, and they must be immediately released in relation to the two state solution.

Look, this is necessarily and rightly the long term objective, because I do not believe there will be lasting peace. And without a two state solution, a safe and secure Israel, which we do not have, or a viable Palestinian state which we do not have. And so that must be the end goal. And we're working with others to ensure that that remains the goal. Along the way, there has to be the work on the governance, the security and the reconstruction in Gaza.

And I have to say, once the media are fully into Gaza, I think we will be having quite some debate in this House when the full horror of what has happened there and devastation is finally seen in relation to illegal settlements. Yes, I absolutely have made clear in relation to the West Bank what must happen or not happen, I should say, in relation to the illegal settlements. And it's important that we ensure that this is a process that leads to a lasting peace for Israel, for Gaza, and of course, for the West Bank as well.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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and violence. That sounds like the old Tory party I used to know, and I'm really party I used to know, and I'm really pleased to hear it, because it is only in a sense, by uniting across this House in the face of a conflict that's gone on for far too long, and being clear eyed about the only way there can be peace that is lasting, that we will be able to play a full part as our country in bringing that about.

And I welcome the old tone and the old content that I just heard. Melanie Ward. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The emotional scenes in recent days in Palestine and Israel are proof that only politics and never violence, can bring security to the people of the bring security to the people of the region, and accountability for the heinous killing that has taken place heinous killing that has taken place must be part of the future. To. As someone who, as a then aid worker, stood in a hospital in Gaza last stood in a hospital in Gaza last year, I know that the UK can play a key role in rebuilding Gaza's decimated health system.

Will the decimated health system. Will the Prime Minister meet me to discuss this, and will he convey the thanks of these benches to the national of these benches to the national security adviser, who has played a truly vital role in making this ceasefire happen? Not for the first time. The leader of the opposition has no idea what she's talking about, and her backbenchers know it as well. OK. the role that national security adviser played. And it's important. It's a typical UK role, which is quiet behind the scenes, diplomatic but bringing around really helpful steps towards the desired end.

I

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will make sure she gets a meeting with the relevant minister on the other issues. Sir Andrew Mitchell.
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Kit Malthouse Portrait Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)
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Deputy Speaker, setting aside the fact that we find ourselves in a situation where conditions have been placed upon the cessation of the annihilation of entire people, or the strange delineation between hostages on one side and prisoners

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held in administrative detention on the other. We should, of. Course. All. As the Prime Minister said, expressed profound relief at the end expressed profound relief at the end of the killing, not least of one child, every 45 minutes for two years. Isn't the lesson, though, of years. Isn't the lesson, though, of the last two years that when the UK finally moves on from empty rhetoric finally moves on from empty rhetoric to take concrete action, that there is movement in the parties to a conflict like this, and that conflict like this, and that therefore we should be thinking about what more concrete action we can take, and in particular in three areas.

First of all, can we please have concrete steps to deter Israeli territorial ambition in the West Bank, including a ban on settlement goods? Now that we've. Officially goods? Now that we've. Officially recognised that territory? Secondly, could we have a reassertion of UK

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support for international law and the institutions which support it? And in. Particular, if he could use his. Relationship with.

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Relationship with. President Trump to have the sanctions on individuals at the UN and the International Criminal Court lifted. And finally, if we are to lifted. And finally, if we are to support or participate in an International Stabilisation Force, could we please insist that it also covers areas B and C of the occupied Palestinian territories where the

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Palestinian territories where the IDF? I'm afraid. Too. Often acts as cover for incidents

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of Israeli terrorism. Well. I thank him for his question of
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Him for raising this. Firstly, let's be clear it is not flooding in today. It is beginning to go in today. It needs to flood in, but it's not flooding in yet and so we do need to get it in. He's absolutely right that then the distribution becomes a critical next issue. And that's why we're working with others on what the security arrangements need to be in place as soon as possible in Gaza to ensure that aid gets to where it needs to get to.

So volume, speed and effective distribution are absolutely key in relation to this. And we're working with others to ensure that we play our part in that. Apsana Begum September last year, the government announced data suspended 30 export licenses to suspended 30 export licenses to Israel, with around 350 licensed licences remaining active. The government has repeatedly said it was blocking the sale of items to be was blocking the sale of items to be used in Israel's military assault in Gaza, yet a new channel four report Gaza, yet a new channel four report has found Israel importing nearly £1 million worth of UK munitions in the first nine months of this year, with first nine months of this year, with a total of 110,000 items categorised as bullets from the UK to Israel.

In August alone, with the Prime Minister confirm what the UK made. The munitions were used in Israel's military assault in Gaza. And does military assault in Gaza. And does he agree with me that a world for justice and with peace that is lasting must be one without these lasting must be one without these bullets and these bombs?
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Iqbal Mohamed Portrait Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)
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Iqbal Mohamed thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Myself with the tributes. Paid to Lord Campbell from across. The. House and to thank their Prime

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House and to thank their Prime Minister for his statement. I also welcome the. Release of.

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All hostages and the several hundred Palestinian detainees. that.

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that. There are over. 10,000 captives. Some prisoners, but many without

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Some prisoners, but many without charge, that are. Still held in Israeli prisons. And I hope the government will work towards. The.

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The. Release of the innocents that are being held. The rebuilding and the. Interim and final governance.

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Interim and final governance. Of Gaza must be Palestinian, led not by.

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not by. Western actors. The Palestinians have suffered over two years.

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Of a relentless. Genocide and decades of. Israeli siege. Occupation, military.

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Violence and oppression. I totally agree with the position that Hamas must. Not have any role.

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To play in any future. one. Of the.

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And there's no. Excuse for. What happened on October. The 7th. But one of. The root causes that's preventing

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a two state. Solution from becoming. Reality is the. Unlawful. Order of Israel. Can the honourable gentleman.

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Please get to his question? Thank you. So, will the Prime Minister confirm.

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confirm. To this House. When the government will. Be. In full compliance with the.

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In full compliance with the. ICJ advisory opinion on not. Doing anything. That helps perpetuate.
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None Portrait Ministerial statement: Northern Ireland Troubles
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this afternoon. Statement on the Northern Ireland Troubles. Secretary of State Hilary Benn. With permission.
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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With permission. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a. Statement on. The legacy of the Troubles. Which still hangs heavily over

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Which still hangs heavily over the lives of so many people in Northern. Ireland and indeed across. The United Kingdom.

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The Good. Friday Agreement, that extraordinary. Act of political courage brought peace.

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peace. But although its architects. Knew that legacy would have to be dealt with, they were. Not able to do so.

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Not able to do so. This is. Therefore the unfinished business of. That agreement.

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That agreement. And why so many. Too many. Victims and survivors are. Still waiting for answers about what exactly happened to those they loved so much. The previous government's Legacy Act failed to win support in Northern Ireland, failed to comply with our international human rights

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obligations and was undeliverable. Whatever its. Intentions, it was. No.

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No. Basis for trying to. Move forward. And that is why. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government is Deputy Speaker, the government is today introducing new primary legislation and laying a draft remedial order under the Human remedial order under the Human Rights Act as we seek to fulfil our King's Speech commitment to repeal King's Speech commitment to repeal and replace the Legacy Act. Madam Deputy Speaker, this legislation will give effect to the framework that I announced with the Irish that I announced with the Irish Government on the 19th of September, which reflects the principles of the which reflects the principles of the Stormont House agreement.

And contains sovereign commitments by contains sovereign commitments by both the UK and Irish governments. The New Troubles.

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The New Troubles. Commission. To be renamed the Legacy. Commission. With statutory oversight to

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provide accountability and confidence. And learning. From Operation.

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Nova, a statutory victims and survivors. Advisory Group. Significantly strengthen the Significantly strengthen the governance of the Commission, with two co-directors of investigations, statutory conflict of interest statutory conflict of interest duties and appointments made only following. Independent advice. Enhance the investigative powers of the Commission and put in. Place a fairer disclosure.

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Regime. Ensuring that the Commission has the powers. It needs. To find.

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To find. Answers for families and can make public the maximum possible

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information consistent with the state's responsibility to protect. Life and national security. The Bill.

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The Bill. Will also. Fulfil the. Commitment we have. Made to restore the small number of Troubles related inquests, which

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of Troubles related inquests, which Legacy. Act. And refer the other inquests that

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And refer the other inquests that had not yet commenced, to the Solicitor General. To independently. Consider whether, in each case

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Consider whether, in each case they are most appropriately dealt. With by the Reformed Legacy. Commission or.

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Commission or. Via the coronial system. Enable the Reformed Commission to hold new the Reformed Commission to hold new proceedings in cases that transfer to it from the coronial system, to it from the coronial system, consistent with the provisions in the Inquiries Act. This will provide for. Public hearings the consideration of sensitive consideration of sensitive information in. Closed hearings and effective next of kin participation,

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including through legal representation. We will also.

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We will also. Address in the bill rather than in the remedial order. The UK. Supreme Court.

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Ruling in the Adams Interim. Custody Orders case regarding.

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The application of the Karl Turner principle, we. Must put beyond doubt

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Must put beyond doubt Parliament's intention by clarifying that the relevant legislation allowed such orders to be made.

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allowed such orders to be made. By junior ministers. As well as by the. Secretary of State.

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Secretary of State. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are a huge debt of gratitude to the 250,000 Northern Ireland. Veterans who served with honour and distinction to keep people safe, and who worked with the police and other who worked with the police and other emergency services in the most difficult circumstances imaginable. difficult circumstances imaginable. Their service and their sacrifice will never be forgotten. That is why, having.

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why, having. Worked. Closely with the. Defence Secretary. And the Armed Forces Minister,

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And the Armed Forces Minister, the government is introducing strong safeguards for veterans. That safeguards for veterans. That respond directly to the concerns that have been expressed to us. These safeguards will also apply to These safeguards will also apply to other people, such as former police officers. They will mean that no officers. They will mean that no witness will need to travel to Northern Ireland to engage with

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legacy mechanisms. They will have a right to do so remotely because coroners and judges. In the commission.

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In the commission. Will be legally required. To allow this. And support for veterans will be

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And support for veterans will be available to. Assist them in doing so. The Commission will be under a duty not to duplicate the work of

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previous. Investigations. Unless there are compelling. Reasons that make it. Essential to do so. The welfare of veterans will be given proper consideration as

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be given proper consideration as part of any assessment as to whether they are required to give evidence. This will.

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This will. to. Seek anonymity. When doing. So, and. Our protections will not be

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Our protections will not be limited to legislation. Any contact with veterans will be facilitated through the Ministry of Defence. Protecting veterans from cold

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calling, and veterans will not be required to rehearse the historical. Context surrounding incidents where such. Information can be obtained from

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Information can be obtained from other sources, including the Ministry of Defence. These measures

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will provide what. The three. UK Veterans. Commissioners have

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UK Veterans. Commissioners have called for, not immunity from the law, but. Fairness under it.

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Madam Deputy. Speaker, the remedial. Order which. I am also laying.

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I am also laying. Today will remove. The government's previous government's much criticised. Immunity scheme.

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Immunity scheme. Which offered false promises, was never introduced. And would have

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never introduced. And would have enabled those who committed the most appalling. Terrorist crimes.

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Terrorist crimes. prosecution. The principal. Reason why.

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The principal. Reason why. The act was so strongly opposed.

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The act was so strongly opposed. In Northern Ireland. It will lift. Also the current prohibition on Troubles.

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Troubles. Related civil proceedings. Madam Deputy Speaker. Simon.

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Simon. Harris, and his. Team for their open. And constructive approach. In reaching the Framework.

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In reaching the Framework. Agreement. Which recognises that helping families affected by the Troubles is families affected by the Troubles is a shared responsibility. And that is why the joint.

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Framework contains. Specific and unprecedented. Commitments by the Irish. Government to.

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Facilitate the fullest possible cooperation. Of the Irish authorities with a Reformed Legacy Commission, establish a dedicated unit within An Garda Siochana to deal with Troubles related cases, including investigating all outstanding cases in Ireland and make a financial contribution of 25 million to. Help fund.

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Legacy mechanisms. This is, of course, in addition to the £250 million already.

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million already. and. Where required. Legislation will. Be introduced. By the Irish Government. To implement.

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To implement. These commitments. We are also establishing, with

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We are also establishing, with the Irish government, an independent Commission on Information Retrieval, Commission on Information Retrieval, initially on a pilot basis, to provide families with an. Additional

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means of getting information. Madam Deputy Speaker, since my appointment last year, I. Have had. Many discussions. With political parties.

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With political parties. Victims and survivors organisations, human rights groups, organisations, human rights groups, veterans and others affected by the Troubles. Given the views held by so many people, often diametrically opposed. It was always going to be opposed. It was always going to be impossible to set out a plan that gives everybody everything that they gives everybody everything that they want. There will be elements of our approach that some people will. approach that some people will.

Welcome and others will not. I also recognise because of what has gone recognise because of what has gone before, there is a great lack of trust in all of us in this House, on the part of victims and survivors. That is unfortunately the reality. But it is not. And it never has been an argument for not trying to find a way forward. And I hope that those who want to see in a fair and effective approach to legacy, which can command greater support in Northern Ireland, will recognise that these measures represent fundamental reform and will therefore be given a chance to succeed.

Time waits for no one. Least of all for the many families who lost loved ones, and they ultimately will be the. Judge of whether these new arrangements can give them the. Answers that they have sought for so long. And I hope that we will together be able to grasp this opportunity and so help the people of Northern Ireland to look to a future free of the burden

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of the past. I commend this statement to the House. Shadow Secretary of State, Alex Burke.
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Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart MP (Brentwood and Ongar, Conservative)
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Burke. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Secretary statement. The last.

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The last. Government legislated to draw a line under Troubles era litigation. That litigation was.

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That litigation was. Inevitably weighted against those who. Sought. To protect our country from terrorism. It was inevitably weighted.

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weighted. Against those who keep. Records, and whose servicemen are easy to. Locate and contact.

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easy to. Locate and contact. Even today, vexatious. Claims are being made. Only last

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week, a judicial review into a. 1991 case was rightly. Belfast. The judge.

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Described the challenge as utterly divorced. From reality. But not before the former special forces soldier at the centre.

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forces soldier at the centre. Of it had been had to endure. Four years of investigation. Mindful of cases such as this, the Mindful of cases such as this, the last government sought to draw a line and with its actions today, this government is erasing that line. And as it does, so many former servicemen will again feel with profound unease that the lawyers are coming. I hope the House will this afternoon spare a thought for them. I know we will have a lot of time to debate the legislation the government is laying, but there are a number of specific questions that I would like to ask the Secretary of State now.

First, on the resumption of inquests and civil cases, will he tell the House how many inquests will be restored and how many will be referred to the Solicitor General? Can he specifically tell the House whether that list will include the 1987 local case? Likewise, civil cases is to reopen. It's thought that at the time of prohibition, many hundreds of such cases, affecting perhaps thousands of people, were before the Belfast courts. What is the nao's calculation of the number of civil cases that are now likely to proceed? I ask this, Madam Deputy Speaker, because there are clear financial consequences to reopening legacy in this way.

The Secretary of State referred to £250 million already committed. Indeed it was. It was committed by the last government to deal with legacy as we framed it. But it is now clear that the new Legacy Commission is to have a much bigger remit than the Icrier. If so, will its budget be increased, and if not, how will it be expected to function? Similarly, the police service in Northern Ireland has raised very serious concerns about the amount of money they will need to support reopened inquests and civil cases.

Policy exchanges place this cost on the police is around £90 million. At a time when police numbers in Northern Ireland are at an all time low. There is a very real prospect that, without additional funding from the Secretary of State, front line policing in Northern Ireland will be further reduced. Can the Secretary of State make a commitment that that won't happen? Third, the government has briefed journalists today that legislation will ban Gerry Adams from receiving compensation for his detention in the 1970s. But the secretary of state's statement made no reference to that.

Can he tell the House unequivocally that Mr. Adams will not receive one penny of compensation? Fourth, the Secretary of State listed a number of protections for veterans in court, but it's already the case that anonymity, age related considerations and remote hearings are available at the discretion of the court. And that was apparent to the Tanisha when, on the 19th of September, he emphasised that no new protections would be available to veterans. Does the Secretary of State agree with Mr. Harris? There has also been some confusion about whether these protections would extend to paramilitaries.

On the 25th of September, the Prime Minister claimed they did not. Can the Secretary of State be definitive for the House? Last, there is the question of the involvement of the Republic of Ireland in legacy. This has proved deeply controversial. I am sure the Secretary of State will be asked questions about it this afternoon. However, I was interested to see that the Republic has made commitments to get the Garda to investigate unresolved Troubles related incidents within its jurisdiction and to legislate to enable the fullest possible cooperation of the relevant Irish authorities with the Commission.

If this is true, if this is to happen, it is to be welcomed because during the Troubles, the UK repeatedly sought extraditions from the public to bring terrorist charges, and the vast majority of cases they were turned down. Following 1998. The former Irish justice minister, Michael McDowell, said that the Irish government gave a de facto amnesty to the IRA and indeed there are very many instances of possible collusion between the Garda and the provisional IRA, which have never received the attention they deserve.

Kingsmill, the murder of Ian Sproule but Bloody Friday to ban lemon. The list goes on. I sincerely hope that the Republic will now engage sincerely, deeply and honestly, and

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I hope the Secretary of State will ensure that it does. Yeah. Well, I'm.
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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Grateful to the. Honourable gentleman. For his response. I mean, he says at the beginning that the last at the beginning that the last government sought to draw a line. It didn't work. It didn't work. And in the act of seeking to do that, and this is the one question that the now opposition has never been able to answer, it decided it would give terrorists immunity from prosecution. I've never heard and

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yes, that is what the last heard. A justification.

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Yes it did. And it didn't work. It didn't have support in Northern Ireland. have support in Northern Ireland. How can Northern Ireland proceed to deal with the legacy of the Troubles, when the legislation the Troubles, when the legislation the last government passed had no last government passed had no support, no support in Northern Ireland? To answer his specific questions, nine inquests would be questions, nine inquests would be restored. The remaining 24 will go into the sifting process that nine

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into the sifting process that nine will include local. People because.

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Because the Conservative. Attorney General ten years ago Attorney General ten years ago ordered a new inquest into local, a ordered a new inquest into local, a point never referred to by the opposition. And it was one of the cases that had begun, and therefore cases that had begun, and therefore it falls within the group that will be restored. The rest will be be restored. The rest will be considered in the sifting process by the Solicitor General. The number of civil cases will depend on those who civil cases will depend on those who choose to bring them, or resume them on the PSNI.

I would say to the honourable gentleman that prior to the 1st of May last year, the PSNI had over a thousand cases on its books. And that is no longer the case. And the Legacy Commission, which the UK government is funding, is now responsible for looking at all cases referred to it. And that is a cost that is borne by the UK government and not by the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland. And to the extent that cases are no longer inquests but go into the Commission, the costs will be borne by the UK government and not by the Department of Justice.

In Northern Ireland. On the issue of interim custody orders, as I indicated to the House a moment ago, the legislation will make it clear that the signing of interim custody orders by junior ministers was always lawful. But we have also decided in placing a draft remedial order before the House today, that sections 46 and 47 will now remain in place until the provisions of the bill take effect. Now, this will deal with the point that some people have raised about avoiding a gap, but we all have to recognise that 46 and 47 proved to be an ineffective way of dealing with this issue, and the honourable gentleman smiles, but

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he knows that that is the case. The protections. We have brought in for veterans, we have done it with the motivation we have done it with the motivation of protecting veterans. And on the involvement of the Republic of Ireland. Will I join the honourable Ireland. Will I join the honourable gentleman, a point of unity at the end. I join him in welcoming the end. I join him in welcoming the commitment of the Irish government to this partnership, because the history of Northern Ireland teaches history of Northern Ireland teaches us a lot of progress is made when the two go guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement work together, and there are many people in Northern Ireland who would like to get answers from the Garda and from the answers from the Garda and from the Irish authorities.

At the moment, the Irish government is refusing to cooperate. Why? Because of the last government's Legacy Act. And I look forward to them participating in the

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forward to them participating in the ahead. Select Committee Tonia Antoniazzi. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I I'm pleased to see from
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Paul Kohler Portrait Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank Secretary of State in advance for. Advance sight of his. Statement. As this is my.

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As this is my. First statement as the Liberal. Democrat spokesperson for Northern Ireland. I want to begin by recognising the deep scars left by recognising the deep scars left by the Troubles on families and communities across the island of Ireland and these islands. The pain, loss and legacy of that conflict remain deeply felt to this day. Whilst the Liberal Democrats welcome the recent agreement between the

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British and Irish governments, the true. Test of this. Deal will lie. The detail of the legislation that follows the government's stated intention to promote an honest attempt at reconciliation, to draw a line under reconciliation, to draw a line under decades of division, is one that every member of this House can understand. Victims families deserve understand. Victims families deserve truth, justice and closure. Equally, our veterans deserve and must be our veterans deserve and must be afforded fairness and protection from injustice.

As the Secretary of State has said, the Legacy Act introduced by the conservatives failed to gain the support of any of the parties, instalment victims the parties, instalment victims groups or the Irish government. This lack of consensus speaks volumes, but not loud enough. It would seem, but not loud enough. It would seem, if His Majesty's Official Opposition. I look forward to examining the contents of this new examining the contents of this new bill in detail, proposing constructive amendments. My party will engage fully with the government as lasting reconciliation depends upon transparency, fairness and independent oversight.

That and independent oversight. That means an effective information retrieval body with statutory disclosure powers meaningful participation for victims, and safeguards to uphold both justice and compassion for veterans and and compassion for veterans and victims alike. They are there for the Secretary of State. Three questions. First, how will this bill ensure reconciliation is imposed from above but built from the ground up? Secondly, based on the many meetings my party has had with veterans and their representatives, what specific safeguards will the government include to ensure fairness, proportionality and proper protections for those who serve with integrity? And lastly, how this government ensure the prosecution under the law or the possibility of it can never be used to harm,

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oppress or discredit those who fought for our country, regardless of the final verdict. OK, well.
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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OK, well. May I. Welcome the. Honourable gentleman to his new

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Honourable gentleman to his new role and to say that I genuinely look forward to working with him on these and other matters. Given his these and other matters. Given his interest in Northern Ireland, which is shared right across the House on his three specific questions, the first thing I would say is that no legislation can enable people to feel reconciled in some way to what happened. In the end, reconciliation has to come from within, and that's why the title reconciliation will not be in the new name of the Legacy Commission, because it is a consequence of a process that we are trying to put in place.

If families can find answers, and I would urge the House to concentrate on that, because that is what this is all about, trying to enable families to find answers. Secondly, the safeguards. I did draw attention to them in my opening statement, and he will be able to see when the bill is published later today, how they're given legal. Expression. And on his point about prosecution, I would simply say this. There have been 1 or 2 comments in some of these discussions.

People have talked about politically motivated prosecutions or vexatious prosecutions. I think it's very important, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the House upholds the integrity and independence of the prosecutorial authorities, a fundamental bedrock of our legal system is that independent prosecutors make those decisions and to suggest that they are any way politically motivated, in my view,

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is profoundly mistaken. Blair Anderson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
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Gavin Robinson Portrait Rt Hon Gavin Robinson MP (Belfast East, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Gavin Robinson from Deputy Speaker and can I firstly just welcome the Minister to his place and to the Department and to welcome the new shadow spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats and thanking very personally the role played by the Honourable lady for Putney during her time in the Northern Ireland Office as well. Madam Deputy Speaker, whenever the announcement was raised and announced with the Irish government during a House of Commons recess, you could consider that cynical that we stand here today during a statement on legislation that has yet to be introduced and therefore we have no detail as disgraceful, and the suggestion that the Irish government have committed to legislate at all is entirely fanciful.

They have not. But the detail we do have is that the Secretary of State wishes for the Solicitor General to be the person to carry out the sifting process as to whether cases should go to inquests through the coronial system, or to the Legacy Commission. Now, in Northern Ireland, we have an advocate general. The Advocate General is England and Wales Attorney General. I'm clear in my mind that Richard Harmer would be wholly inappropriate to have his hands anywhere near cases touching on legacy of the past, given how he has conflicted himself.

So will the Secretary of State indicate has the Attorney General of this country recused himself from this process? Has he, as Secretary of State, decided to exclude the Attorney General from this process? And is he legislating in a way that will exclude every Attorney General from

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this process, or is it just Richard Harmer? Yeah.
15:31
Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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Yeah. Well, I would say to the right.

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Well, I would say to the right. Honourable gentleman, I'm sorry to have heard what he has just said in relation to very substantial proposals contained in the framework document, and I grant him. The bill will be published shortly, and he will have a chance to say, I've been accused of many things in my time in public life. Being cynical is not one of them. So that is a first. The truth about the truth, about the truth about the announcement of the

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framework. Well, in. May may. Be the beginning of a number of such accusations. But anyway, I such accusations. But anyway, I leave that to others who want to take the debate in that particular

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direction. The framework was announced because when it was, because it. Was a joint framework.

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Between the. Two governments, and that means that there had to be a negotiation. About when it came out. But I did undertake to the speaker

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But I did undertake to the speaker at the time that I would come to the House as quickly as possible. To. Make a statement.

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To. Make a statement. I laid a written ministerial statement in the House yesterday, and I came today at the first available opportunity with members here, bearing in mind that we had yesterday to subject what we had

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yesterday to subject what we had agreed to scrutiny. I have every confidence in the Solicitor General. And.

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And. I'm sure she will do an excellent job in sifting these cases against three criteria which will be laid three criteria which will be laid out in statute one. What impact will sensitive information have on the sensitive information have on the ability of inquests to actually complete the case? The second will be speed. Time waits for no one and be speed. Time waits for no one and the third will be what is the view of those who are involved in the
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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Can I. Honourable friend her question? She's such a strong advocate for the many veterans that she represents. I would encourage her to look at the legislation, to see the nature of those legislative commitments, to give effect to the veterans protections. There will be a couple that will not be in legislation because they are entirely in our own hands. Agreeing a protocol with the Commission to ensure that there is no cold calling. And I would like to take this opportunity, and it is very

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remiss of me not to have welcomed. My new. Deputy to the House. This is the first time we've had the chance to sit together on the front bench, but sit together on the front bench, but I want to pay tribute to the Minister from the Ministry of Defence, the Minister for Armed Forces, who has played a really important and significant role in putting these protections in place. And I note that Lieutenant General Sir Nick Pope, the Chair of the Sir Nick Pope, the Chair of the Confederation of Service Charities, has said the Confederation welcomes and I quote, welcomes the and I quote, welcomes the development of the safeguards that have been put in place to offer protection to those within the armed protection to those within the armed Forces community who are affected by legacy issues.

I, I, too, welcome

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legacy issues. I, I, too, welcome that recognition of what we've done. Yes, sir. Iain Duncan Smith.
15:35
Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)
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Iain Duncan Smith. Deputy Speaker. Obviously. The devil lies in the detail. Of these things as never more so

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Of these things as never more so Bill. Comes eventually before us, we really can't say for certain whether really can't say for certain whether it's good, bad or indifferent, as is often the case. But I do raise two points. First of all, I think mentioning the this agreement as it seems in here, which I find a little bit wishy washy over over Ireland's role in all of this does have a huge amount of history attached to it. As is being said by Honourable friends Ireland's role in this over the past and refusing in any way to hand over people that were quite really guilty of the most vexatious, disgusting attacks on civilians and on soldiers does seem to be rather peculiar.

And the second. So we wait and see what that actually means, because the Islanders says they're committed. I'd love to see what that commitment actually means. But I do say when it comes to vexatious prosecutions, and I see that in this note that we've got here, they talk about protection from repeated investigations. Unless there are compelling reasons to do so. My concern with things like that, they are little hooks that allow development through legislation and not actually powerful tools to do what the right hon.

Gentleman says, and so I would urge him right now to be very clear when this legislation comes forward, that this cannot be broken through and the definition of compelling needs to be tied right down.

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Who decides? Well, I would.
15:37
Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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I note the point that the Right Honourable. and. I'm not going to. Dissent from what he said, but

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Dissent from what he said, but this is an attempt to move beyond the past and the history, to try and move forward to something that is move forward to something that is better in the future. And look, in the end, people will judge the commitments that this government has made, and people will judge the commitments that the Irish government has made. But the deal has been signed in good faith and we are committed to doing what we promised to do.

The purpose of the commission, which after all, the last government established and which I took the decision not to abolish, but to reform, many people criticised that they wanted it scrapped completely and start again. I thought that it would have been a mistake because time waits for no one and would have wasted all the money and stop the investigations that are taking place, which are really important to the families. Every single investigation is important to every single family because it's about the death of their loved one.

And we will debate at, I'm sure, length in the House the specifics of the legislation. The state has a duty, of course, to properly investigate cases where the state has been involved in a death. The Right Honourable gentleman is

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well aware of that, and it's a duty that all of us should uphold. Claire Hanna firstly, can. I thank.
15:38
Claire Hanna Portrait Claire Hanna MP (Belfast South and Mid Down, Social Democratic & Labour Party)
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I thank. The Minister and his team for their work on this package. Including the member. For public. Who was. So well regarded.

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So well regarded. By everybody who. Came across her in. Northern Ireland. Can I thank. Officials in the Department of

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Officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Dublin. For the same? Because that partnership is vital. To moving forward, and the. SDLP acknowledges.

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SDLP acknowledges. The progress in this package if. It is faithfully. Captured in the legislation. And when we.

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Push for more and. Better, please know that that comes from. A sincere. And long held.

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And long held. Determination to get this right for families, for survivors and for our society. As a whole. And despite some.

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And despite some. Voices to the contrary, including recently, I don't believe that most people do believe that. Anti murder in Northern.

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Anti murder in Northern. inevitable. and.

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Perpetuating those. Narratives is an enormous challenge for the present and for the future as well. But does the

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the future as well. But does the Secretary of State agree with me that all of the work of invested by. Families and. Campaigners and by his officials

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Campaigners and by his officials will be worth nothing if those who created victims, whether republican or loyalist paramilitaries or state

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or loyalist paramilitaries or state forces who assisted them, do not transparency. And disclosure.

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And put honesty. And the needs of victims over the needs of their own
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Al Pinkerton Portrait Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)
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Madam Deputy Speaker, and can I welcome the Minister to his place? And can I. Also welcome my honourable friend to his.

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honourable friend to his. New place. And to, thankfully. The best job that that somebody

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The best job that that somebody could have in opposition? I have spent the summer speaking to veterans groups.

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veterans groups. Who I've. I've been. Speaking to about. That vital. Commitment that they. Need to.

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Need to. Feel that the process. Of prosecution does. Not become persecution.

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Not become persecution. And whilst many of those veterans recognise that they went to Northern Ireland in order to. To restore the.

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To restore the. Rule of. Law, and that they think that they should be subject to the laws of this land, they nonetheless of this land, they nonetheless remain incredibly anxious about the possibility that the process of persecution becomes persecution. Can I ask the Secretary of State, has he had the official backing of any veterans group for the approach that he has taken? And separately, can I also ask, has he had any assurances from the Republic of Ireland government that they will, at the result of the publication of this bill, dropped the inter-state case

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against the United Kingdom? Well. I would.
15:41
Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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I would. I'm grateful to the honourable. Gentleman. And can I thank him for the role he played when he was leading for

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he played when he was leading for the Liberal Democrats. On Northern Ireland. The truth is. That with the

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The truth is. That with the passage of time, the possibility of prosecutions becomes increasingly prosecutions becomes increasingly remote. We all know that to be the case. Most of the families I have met, most not all, have said, I know that one's going to be held to account through judicial process, but I just want to know what

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happened. That's what I. Did, and. It causes such pain and grief

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It causes such pain and grief that that answer cannot. Cannot.

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Cannot. Cannot be provided. It really is

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Cannot be provided. It really is difficult. And as far as the Irish government is concerned, I believe government is concerned, I believe that they will honour the promises that they have made because this is that they have made because this is a significant moment, this partnership with the Irish government, because in moving from government, because in moving from non-cooperation to cooperation, it will open up the possibility of more information coming to families and information coming to families and look on the interstate case that that is a matter for the Irish government.

But I'm very clear of one thing. The last Legacy Act one thing. The last Legacy Act created circumstances in which the law that was passed was not compatible with our international compatible with our international obligations, and that is the basis of the interstate case. The legislation I'm bringing before the House will fix that will deal with it. And in those circumstances, there is no basis, in my view, for

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there is no basis, in my view, for the interstate case any longer. Graeme Downie. Thank you very much, Madame. Deputy Speaker.
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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Of the judiciary needs to be held

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Of the judiciary needs to be held up. Well on the subject of inquests, there will be three statutory tests that the Solicitor General will have to apply. And I've just indicated an answer to an earlier question. What they are family views will be one of the considerations. But if inquests

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can't proceed because of sensitive information, well. Wouldn't it be more. Sensible to put it into the

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Sensible to put it into the commission which can deal with sensitive information, because he has provision for closed hearings? No doubt. My honourable friend will make the point about appointment make the point about appointment processes when we come to discuss the bill. I would, however, just point out, and it's also relevant to point out, and it's also relevant to the point that's been made from the opposition benches. The agreement on opposition benches. The agreement on the information retrieval mechanism.

This was something that the previous

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This was something that the previous Conservative government negotiated with the Irish government and. Formed part of the.

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Stormont House agreement. What is the purpose of it? The purpose of it is to enable those who have is to enable those who have information to pass it to the body, which can then pass it to the families, and that information will families, and that information will be a protected disclosure, which is not the same as immunity. It will be not the same as immunity. It will be a protected disclosure. That system has worked very well in recovering quite a number of the remains of quite a number of the remains of those who were abducted, tortured, murdered and buried by the IRA murdered and buried by the IRA through the ICL VR.

And I hope that that is a step forward in going back to what was agreed at Stormont House by the last government and the Irish government and the political parties. Well, not all of them will be welcome on all sides.
15:49
Sorcha Eastwood Portrait Sorcha Eastwood MP (Lagan Valley, Alliance)
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Sorcha Eastwood. this as unfinished business. And in the last statement, we heard about the successes of the peace process

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in Northern Ireland. I was 12 years old when. The Good Friday. Agreement was signed, and I stand

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Agreement was signed, and I stand here 40. Years of age as the MP for Lagan Valley. And my constituents deserve truth and justice as much as anybody else. We've heard a lot anybody else. We've heard a lot today about veterans, and my family were part of that cohort, and they proudly served.

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proudly served. Along with many others. They do not want an amnesty. They

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They do not want an amnesty. They do not want immunity. They do not want equivocation with terrorists. Which was proposed by the

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Which was proposed by the outgoing government. We hear. About people in Northern Ireland that were in the wrong place at the

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that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whenever they died. They were not. It was the terrorists. That were in.

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That were in. The wrong place. Doing the wrong work. We must. Send out a clear. Signal, no matter what. Our.

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Our. Political opinion, that terrorism was wrong.

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In the past and it is wrong now. Can you give me your guarantee. the. Northern.

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Northern. Ireland Executive and my ministerial. Colleagues to make sure that. Those families who so. Rightfully deserve.

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Rightfully deserve. Truth and justice, actually have
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Julian Lewis Portrait Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
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mentioned the. Letters of comfort that were given to the IRA, and whether or not they still hold water. But let me go back to what the Secretary of State was saying about the possibility of IRA bosses like Gerry Adams.

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Claiming compensation on technical grounds that the wrong. In inverted.

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In inverted. Commas minister signed their internment papers, as I understand

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internment papers, as I understand it, from what he said earlier, the remedial order. That he. Is laying.

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Before Parliament will open up the possibility of people like that suing the government for compensation, which nevertheless which the new legacy legislation

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which the new legacy legislation that is bringing in will. Then rule out. And he referred.

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And he referred. To a possible gap. Between the. New legislation coming into force New legislation coming into force and the remedial order opening the gap. Now, it's been suggested to me gap. Now, it's been suggested to me that the government is briefing the press, that the remedial order will

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press, that the remedial order will the. New Legacy. Act has gone through Parliament.

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Act has gone through Parliament. Is that his policy, and if. Not. What is. His policy? Well, the well, the
16:02
Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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His policy? Well, the well, the aim of the remedial order is to remove from the statute book provisions in the previous provisions in the previous legislation that have been found to be incompatible. With our obligations. I would just say on the letters of comfort, they did not repeat, did not offer immunity. And that's been quite clear from from Lady Justice Hallett review what the Chief Constable and others have said on the case of the interim custody orders.

If I could just reassure the right honourable gentleman. The Supreme Court judgement was in 2020. The last government didn't know what to do about that. It was not a judgement the government's expected. Didn't know how to try and deal with the question of potential compensation. In the end, two members of the other House put forward what are now sections 46 and 47. They were voted upon, but they were then subsequently found to be ineffective in achieving the objective. When the court said they're incompatible.

But what I've just told the House is that the new draft from ERA will not remove them from the statute books, so 46 and 47 will remain in place until such time as the new legislation I am introducing takes effect now. It's a flimsy defence because we've already been found by the courts to be ineffective, but it will remain in place, and it shows that I have listened to the representations that were made about 46 and 47 and its place in the remedial order.

I'm now going to deal with the problem by legislation in the way I set out. Jim Allister scores.
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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honourable member and his service, both as a. Minister and in our. Armed forces. But I would just

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Armed forces. But I would just gently say to him, protections are not being stripped away because they never existed in the first place. It's really important for.

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The. House to appreciate this. The provisions that were passed in the

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Legacy Act were never commenced. They were then. Struck down by the courts. They

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Struck down by the courts. They don't exist. They never have existed. Well, that is just a fact. They don't get. Nobody is being They don't get. Nobody is being granted immunity because the provisions of that act have never, ever been applied. Can't strip away ever been applied. Can't strip away something that never existed in the first place. And I'm afraid what the last government did was to offer a false promise to veterans. And one false promise to veterans. And one of the consequences of the failure, the widespread failure of the Legacy the widespread failure of the Legacy Act, is court case after court case where people have said, well, we need to find another means of getting an answer to the question getting an answer to the question about what happened to our loved ones.

That involves expensive court cases. I'm under an order to cases. I'm under an order to establish a public inquiry into one case. It is, I think the phrase has case. It is, I think the phrase has been used, a legal wild West that the legislation opened up, and we are trying to put things back together again.
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Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's no secret that I have major concerns over the legacy bill, not least that innocent victims were precluded from their path, their path of justice. What seems to be before us now as a carte blanche for political inquiries, and yet no hope for the Kingsmill families, and instead highlights the role of the Irish government and British mothers after their continued refusal to engage in their collusion to protect IRA murderers across the border.

And the penultimate.

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Paragraph of the statement. Madam Deputy Speaker, they referred to, and I quote, many referred to, and I quote, many families who lost loved ones will be the judge of whether these new arrangements can get them the answers that they have sought for so

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answers that they have sought for so long, or quite clearly, it won't be the case for many families, and the Secretary of State will know. This for my.

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This for my. Family, I'm going down to December and of 1971 when they were murdered. It shows that government has no heart for the victims, but has an ear instead for the victim has an ear instead for the victim maker. So those who did not

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understand why the feelings exist. And when. Will the.

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Will the. Saddest yet put right thinking and good people of the province? Oh.

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Oh. I've been seen to be politically correct by the enemies of peace and correct by the enemies of peace and justice in Northern Ireland. My family seek justice, and I don't see it on the other side. And for all it on the other side. And for all the other families that I represent and what we all represent, we seek and what we all represent, we seek out justice, but not within us. We. Yeah, what can I say to the
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Hilary Benn Portrait Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Leeds South, Labour)
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Stay. Well, I. Will, if I may write. To the honourable gentleman in

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To the honourable gentleman in response to his last. A question. What he describes is exactly what the Commission is. Therefore, I'm making a number of changes in the Commission in order to create greater confidence on the part of families to come forward. I mean, I pay tribute. I have great respect for Sir Declan Morgan and his colleagues and for the work that they are doing, and the fact that 100 families have approached them is very significant.

But as he will know very well, there are many families in Northern Ireland who say because of the circumstances of its creation, the closing down of inquests, civil cases, we don't trust the Commission to look independently and properly at our case. What I'm trying to do is to make it possible for more families to come forward so that more of them can find the answers that they are seeking for. And he makes a powerful point about cooperation from from Ireland, and the reason why I was so keen to try and reach an agreement with the Irish government is we have got, as a result of our negotiations, a commitment to cooperate with the commission.

At the moment, the Irish government will not do so because of the legislation in the last government passed. Once we've made these changes, they are committed to cooperate. Now. In the end, we'll all be judged on how this goes, how it proceeds. Do the answers get found for families? But we'll be in a lot better position than the total mess that the last government left us.

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And the final question on this statement, Sammy Wilson. the.
16:21
Sammy Wilson Portrait Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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the. Waffle of this statement and the state's answers. This afternoon, there's one fact

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This afternoon, there's one fact remains, and that is that soldiers who have served in Northern Ireland, who have already had. Cases tried, will be able to be dragged back into the courts and will be subject to the interrogation there. And the government, the Secretary state has. Talked about all these wonderful protections that's going to gut them. They'll not have to travel to Northern Ireland. Well, the.

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Can appear remotely. They'll be given help to appear remotely. I should not mean somewhere, somehow to work.

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somewhere, somehow to work. And. I part they and then they'll not

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I part they and then they'll not have the knock at the door by anybody other than. The military place. So we're not going to get the PSNI going over from Northern Ireland and knocking at their door to. 6:00 in the morning. That's to. 6:00 in the morning. That's hardly any reassurance to the people who served in Northern Ireland. And

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then we're told that that is a joint responsibility of dealing with the families of the who were affected. By. The. Troubles with.

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Troubles with. Irish government. There is no obligation in this statement on the

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obligation in this statement on the Irish government other than to throw 30 pieces of silver. At the legacy. Mechanism in.

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Mechanism in. Order to assuage their guilt. For protecting. Terrorists over 30. Years, and covering up for the

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Years, and covering up for the collaboration of some of those within the Irish establishment who helped the IRA in their job.
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Anna Dixon Portrait Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)
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Points of order. Anna Dixon. Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, over the summer I was the subject of two online death threats which the police are investigating. These were posted in response to a video published by the member for Keighley and Ilkley Grace. The video accused me of not telling the truth on a very sensitive subject. The horrific abuse of children by grooming gangs. If the member had made these remarks in Parliament, they would have been deemed unparliamentary.

As well as the death threats, the video elicit a torrent of misogynistic, racist and offensive comments. These comments remain online. It is incumbent on us, as members of this House, to do all we can to prevent the escalation of abuse. The actions of the member for Keighley and Ilkley were at best irresponsible, at worst inflammatory. I call on him to apologise, to withdraw the video and to commit to refrain from personal attacks against me and other elected officials in future. Madam Deputy Speaker, online abuse has a psychological impact on all of us who are subject to it our staff, our families and our friends.

It has a chilling effect on democracy, stifling debate, putting good people off, standing for election and creating a climate of hate. Therefore, Madam Deputy Speaker, I also hope that the Standards Committee will review the Code of Conduct to ensure the same standards expected of members in this place

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are upheld in their words and behaviours outside this place, particularly online. Hey.
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None Portrait Ten Minute Rule Motion: Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Welsh Language Provision)
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now move on to the ten minute rule. Here.
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Alex Barros-Curtis Portrait Mr Alex Barros-Curtis MP (Cardiff West, Labour)
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Here.

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bring in a bill to. Require that any. Birth. Death or marriage. Certificate issued in Wales be

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Certificate issued in Wales be issued. Bilingually in English and. Welsh to make provision. For the issuance in England. Of birth certificates.

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Of birth certificates. Bilingually in English. And. Welsh, where either. Parent named on. The certificate is they Welsh.

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The certificate is they Welsh. the. Issuance in England of death. Certificates bilingually in English and Welsh.

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Where the deceased person lived in Wales or was a Welsh speaker, and for connected purposes. May I first extend my.

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extend my. Thanks to the clerks. And the team. In the public Bill office. For their. Invaluable and.

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Invaluable and. Diligent assistance, and also to my hon. Friend the Minister, for his support and for being here today. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is an

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Madam Deputy Speaker, there is an my. Teeth and Bowie are teen battered.

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battered. It means the kettle's boiling and I'm ready. While the. Kettle has been on boil for a long time in Wales and.

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long time in Wales and. Welsh people have been ready. For decades to ensure that they receive birth, marriage and death receive birth, marriage and death certificates in the Welsh language. And this bill aims to give Welsh people, after registration, the people, after registration, the right to receive such. Certificates in Welsh only, English only or in Welsh only, English only or bilingually. Indeed, this isn't the first bill on this subject to come before this House or in the other place. Politicians from both.



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Welsh Labour. And Clyde, Cumbria, have presented bills on this matter. The presented bills on this matter. The late David Ellis Thomas presented a bill in the House of Lords as far say.

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say. As a. Proud Clwyd. Boy, was a bill by the then Clwyd West MP Gareth Thomas, who presented the first.

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the first. Bill in the Commons. And in 2009 he was followed by Hywel Williams, who presented

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Hywel Williams, who presented another bill to this place. Whilst Welsh Labour Employed Committee have led. On. This subject, there have also

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been notable support from politicians of other parties, including Lemba. For the Liberal.

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Democrats and Michael Fabricant for the conservatives, the cheeky Boys of the noughties. So.

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So. Madam Deputy Speaker, this broad support exceptionally broad. Support

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across the political spectrum shows that this is not. A party. Political subject, nor should

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something as important and treasured as the Welsh. Language ever be. Party political. And on that

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Party political. And on that note, I would just like to acknowledge the work of the honourable member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who has shared many

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discussions with me on this, and I look forward to continue working Speaker. If you lived in Wales, you may

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If you lived in Wales, you may well have. Received your child's birth certificate or your parent's death certificate in both English and Welsh and be thinking, what's the problem? What's the purpose of this bill? Well, sadly, there are many circumstances where you might not receive a Welsh or bilingual certificate and receive an English

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certificate only. There are no rules or laws which. Say that if you. Live in Wales. Or are Welsh and

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Live in Wales. Or are Welsh and live in England, that you can or must receive such a certificate in Welsh or bilingually. This is what Welsh or bilingually. This is what happened to a constituent of mine, Avril Davies. I'm delighted that Avril is in the gallery today and I Avril is in the gallery today and I want to pay tribute to her and her family for their fortitude and the light of the tragedy that they face. Sadly, April's husband Allard passed away.

Alec was a proud Welshman and away. Alec was a proud Welshman and a proud Welsh speaker, but his family did not receive a copy of his death certificate bilingually. They received. An English language version only. They wrote many letters, including to the coroner, letters, including to the coroner, the registrar and the General Register Office, requesting that his death certificate be released

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death certificate be released bilingually, but sadly they were turned down every opportunity because of the way the. Law currently.

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Law currently. Operates in their case. Worse still, my constituent was told their only option was to turn to the courts to attempt to secure a reissued certificate in Welsh. April reissued certificate in Welsh. April came to one of my regular advice surgeries to see if I could help, and I. Got to admit, Madam Speaker, and I. Got to admit, Madam Speaker, I was dumbfounded that in 2025 that this was somehow still possible. We've had the Welsh Language Act of

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1993, the Welsh. Language Welsh Measure Wales. Measure 2011, put in place. To ensure that Welsh.

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To ensure that Welsh. Language has parity and equal legal status with English, and it must not be treated less favourably. must not be treated less favourably. Yet here we are, a proud Welsh person who lived and sadly died in person who lived and sadly died in our capital city, yet unable through his family and family, yet unable to

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receive his birth certificate. His death certificate. Pardon me bilingually. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we can all agree. People living in Wales and Welsh people living in England should be able to receive their birth death marriage

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their birth death marriage certificates. Income in Welsh, in. English or bilingually. If they so choose. The previous Labour governments agreed with this Labour governments agreed with this and were in the process of making this law. This started in 2002, when this law. This started in 2002, when there was a UK Government White Paper and a consultation exercise on the future of civil registrations. The birth, marriage and death Registration in the 21st century white Paper stated the government white Paper stated the government will extend the facility for bilingual English Welsh birth registration to include events registration to include events occurring in England to Welsh speaking parents.

Presently, only births that occur in Wales can be births that occur in Wales can be registered bilingually in English and Welsh. This can cause a problem, for example, if a Welsh mother gives birth in a hospital over the border in England and cannot then obtain a birth registration in bilingual format. After the registration, it will be possible for documents to be issued in Wales. Welsh only problem English only or both languages, and in line with birth registration, the government will extend the facility to register a death in English and Welsh to include deaths which take place in England.

After the registration, it will be possible for documents to be reissued to be issued in Welsh only, English only or both languages. So following the subsequent consultation period, the General Register Office was instructed by the UK Labour Government to start looking into plans to make this possible. In 2009 that went. Then Wales Office minister Wayne David stated. The Government remains firmly committed to producing Welsh language certificates, and the General Register Office is exploring the best way to do that.

But unfortunately, the UK Labour Government of the day was not able to get this through the House of Commons in the House of Lords before the 2010 general election, and the succeeding Conservative and Liberal Democrat government would go on to abandon these plans. Despite support from some of their own MPs. As I've already mentioned, my constituents were told they could not receive their death. Their beloved family member's death certificate bilingually because following the inquest, the certificate was first sent to the registrar in English only before it was then sent bilingually.

However, because the certificate had first been received in English, the death was accordingly registered in English only. Now, as I've said, because of the work, the law or the way the law currently works, my constituents has been left with no other option than to turn to the courts to attempt to secure a reissued death certificate. Whilst Avril should have been afforded the indignity of receiving Allied's death certificate bilingually, she is instead faced with the indignity of having to consider recourse to the courts to try and secure that that cannot be right.

It is inhumane and it is unfair, and in 2025 it should not stand. If the previous Labour government's proposals have become law. My constituents would have received that death certificate bilingually because death certificates would be translated after the registration of death. This is a key part of my bill, the 2002 White paper stated. After the registration, it will be possible for documents to be issued in Welsh only, English only, or both languages. That, in a nutshell, is what my bill is about.

Give people living in Wales and Welsh people in England the right to have their or a family member's birth or death certificate be issued in either Welsh, English or bilingually after registration. If no preference is given, then such birth or death certificates should be issued bilingually by default, and in the case of marriage certificates issued in Wales, those to be issued bilingually by default. All of this was a policy aim under the last Labour government, and this is a policy which still has cross-party support.

This is a long overdue process and I am determined to make this happen. We know the previous Labour government asked the General Register Office to look at making this happen. A feasibility study must have taken place so we know a lot of work has already taken place. We also know that with the law as it currently stands, there appear to be

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shortcomings in the procedural. Guidance for registrars, specifically in circumstances where registrars are not Welsh speakers registrars are not Welsh speakers and a bilingual certificate has been requested. These issues raise broader concerns about equity of service for Welsh speaking citizens. This is something I urge the General Register Office and others to look Register Office and others to look at now, whilst my bill is laid, and hopefully makes progress. Because after all, this bill doesn't need to begin from the start line.

We're picking up the baton from a race we've already begun. So let's get we've already begun. So let's get this bill to the finish line. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was born in Louis, Deputy Speaker, I was born in Louis, in Saint Asaph, the city of music, and whilst I don't give my age away, my parents wanted their children's birth certificates to be English and birth certificates to be English and Welsh. Today, my constituents want their relatives death. Certificates in Welsh and or bilingual, but they in Welsh and or bilingual, but they have not been given that option by default.

Instead, they are left to fight for it. This cannot be right fight for it. This cannot be right in a modern Wales, a Wales proud of its language, a population proud of its country. I ask the government to consider my bill and let us in Wales be proud of our country and proud of our language. Kindle happy life. Kindle. Have galon a nation without a language is a nation without a

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a language is a nation without a Speaker. The question is that. The honourable member have.

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Leave to bring in the bill as many as our of that opinion, say 'aye' of the country know. I think

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'aye' of the country know. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill?

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bill? Tonia Antoniazzi. Gill German. Andrew Ranger. Carolyn Harris de Nia Griffith. Liz Saville-Roberts. Ben Griffith. Liz Saville-Roberts. Ben Lake. Ann Davies Henry Tufnell. And myself. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Alex Barros-Curtis.

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Alex Barros-Curtis. Thank you. Registration of births, deaths and marriages Welsh births, deaths and marriages Welsh Language Provision Bill. Second October.

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Friday the 31st. Of October. The clerk will now proceed to

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The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Mental health Bill Lords, as amended in the public Bill Committee

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to be considered. Now. We will begin with new clause

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two, with which it will be convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments. As they. Stayed on the selection paper. I
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None Portrait
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Stayed on the selection paper. I call Zoe Franklin to move new clause two. Madam speaker, I am honoured to

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Madam speaker, I am honoured to open today's debate on the report stage for the Mental Health Bill and have and to have served on the Bill have and to have served on the Bill Committee, where it was clear that members across the House share a commitment to high quality mental health care for those in crisis. And I want to thank my colleagues this afternoon who were on that bill committee. It was a very committee. It was a very informative, moving and high quality discussion.

It is this commitment to high quality mental health care that high quality mental health care that underpins my amendment to new clause two, which leads today's amendments. It addresses a critical issue the inconsistency and inadequacy of care in mental health units across in mental health units across England. We have all, I am sure, her distressing accounts of vulnerable individuals placed in units. That are understaffed, unsafe and ill equipped for recovery. Families entrust the system with their loved ones during moments of crisis, only ones during moments of crisis, only to find that trust undermined not by a lack of compassion, but by a lack a lack of compassion, but by a lack of national direction.

New clause two seeks to change that by establishing a national strategy and establishing a national strategy and annual reporting to ensure every mental health unit is.
16:41
Zöe Franklin Portrait Zöe Franklin MP (Guildford, Liberal Democrat)
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Safe.

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In my. Gilford constituency, a family recently shared with me their experience of a loved one stay in a experience of a loved one stay in a mental health facility. The unit was understaffed from the outset. Wards were mixed in aged and illness and were mixed in aged and illness and with little therapeutic structure. There was no clear advocate or caseworker and the family didn't caseworker and the family didn't know who to contact. They described a system that, in their words, dishes out drugs without improving mental health or wellbeing.

The setting was so short staffed that setting was so short staffed that their loved one was able to self-harm, an unacceptable failure in any care setting. This clause aims to prevent such failures from recur reoccurring. The Care Quality recur reoccurring. The Care Quality Commission has repeatedly raised concerns about the safety of mental health wards, citing staff shortages, poor infrastructure and shortages, poor infrastructure and environments unfit for therapeutic care. In 2023, The King's Fund care. In 2023, The King's Fund reported that 40% of NHS mental health providers were rated requires improvement or inadequate on safety improvement or inadequate on safety figures.

That would be intolerable elsewhere in the health system. The

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Health Services Safety systematic. Risks in inpatient. Mental health care, including

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Mental health care, including delayed responses to distress, inappropriate use of restraint and lack of therapeutic staffing models. And, perhaps most frankly, the British Medical Journal reported over 17,000 serious incidents in mental health services between April 22nd and March 23rd. Each one a moment when care went seriously wrong. And these are not just statistics. They represent real people who deserve better. This new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish a national strategy within 12 months to ensure all mental health units meet or exceed good safety standards under the.

CQC framework, and to report annually to Parliament. It focuses on three key areas recruitment, retention and training of staff, safe staffing levels and patient to staff ratios, especially during nights and peak times. Ongoing accountability through the public reporting. The clause would make patient safety a national obligation, not a postcode lottery. It's about responsibility and transparency. While the bill modernises detention criteria and patients rights, it doesn't explicitly require the Secretary of State to guarantee basic safety and staffing standards.

And this clause fills that gap. Now, some way may worry it's too prescriptive or adds bureaucracy, but it does replace local management. It supports it. It builds on a CQC role by ensuring action is taken. When failings persist, it turns inspection findings into a driver of national improvement. And regarding cost, unsafe care is already expensive. It leads to re administrations, readmissions, litigation, staff burnout and loss of public trust. A

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national strategy allows for smarter investment, preventing failures rather than. Paying.

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Paying. For them later. We've had decades of guidance and reviews. What we haven't had is statutory haven't had is statutory accountability. This clause delivers that new clause two is focussed, that new clause two is focussed, deliverable and urgently needed. It complements the Mental Health Bill by ensuring the rights.

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by ensuring the rights. It enshrines are backed. By. Safe. Well staffed and properly regulated environments. Without it, regulated environments. Without it, we risk legislating for rights in theory or leaving patients unsafe in practice by supporting it. We affirm practice by supporting it. We affirm mental health care deserves the same national standards as any other branch of health care. I urge members to support new clause two and make safety, dignity and and make safety, dignity and accountability a permanent part of our mental health law.

And I look

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our mental health law. And I look forward to the debate in this House today. Thank you. National Strategy on Mental

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health units. The question is that new clause to be read a second time, and I call

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Lewis Atkinson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Many Sunderland families, including Many Sunderland families, including mine, share stories of Cherry Knoll, the Sutherland Borough Asylum in my constituency, which opened in 1895. Severe mental illness has always been a feature of society. Thankfully, the legislative framework and services have developed somewhat since 1895, but arguably they haven't developed fast enough, particularly over the last 42 years since the Mental Health Act was passed. At the start of my NHS career, I spent time shadowing staff on the wards of the then Cherry Knoll, which in 2014 was replaced by a much better facility in Wood Park in Rif in my constituency.

And to this day there are 2825 adults detained under the Mental Health Act and in Sunderland Central as a result of that facility being there. I commend the government's work in on this bill to continue to develop
16:46
Lewis Atkinson Portrait Lewis Atkinson MP (Sunderland Central, Labour)
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the right needed rights of mental health, a patient subject to the Mental Health Act. And today, I want Mental Health Act. And today, I want to particularly focus on new clauses 35 introduced by my hon. Friend from 35 introduced by my hon. Friend from Sheffield Central and the new clause 37 from my honourable friend from Thurrock, particularly regarding Thurrock, particularly regarding community elements of this act. The government is rightly committed to government is rightly committed to parity of esteem between physical and mental health.

But I know as mental health services have developed in recent years, increasingly they are developed. They are delivered rightly in the They are delivered rightly in the community in the least restrictive environment possible. But for that to be done safely and appropriately, to be done safely and appropriately, there needs to be parity of esteem and access to community mental health services in the same way that health services in the same way that there are for physical mental health services, but is not currently the case.

There are unacceptably long waits for community mental health. There are nearly 15,000 people There are nearly 15,000 people waiting over 18 months for community mental health treatment, eight times as many for physical health. But yet as many for physical health. But yet we know that the government's the 18 week referral to treatment standards only applies to physical health only applies to physical health conditions and not to mental health. And it's true that there are serious challenges methodologically in measuring mental health weights. And we've got to be careful to not introduce a target that distorts clinical behaviour.

But in order for us to be serious about parity of esteem, I would urge the government and all others to consider how to improve those mental health waiting times and indeed the reporting of them. The clause new clause 37 moved by my hon. Honourable friend from Thurrock, gives effect for some of those challenges and requests that the Secretary of State report on the adequacy of community services for people with autism and learn disabilities. And she's absolutely right to highlight that as indeed throughout for all patients subject potentially to the Mental Health Act.

Of course, lack of resources in community services also impact on the implementation of community treatment orders and the opportunity to review them adequately, and for them not to feel like an ongoing sentence. As the charity mind has highlighted, is key to that. And a member 37 from my honourable friend in Sheffield Central, I think has something to commend in ensuring that that Community Treatment Orders are sufficiently and robustly reviewed. I spoke to a senior NHS mental health leader recently, and he said to me that nearly everyone who gets into mental health crisis, we already know through community services, nearly everyone who ends up sectioned and detained in a mental health inpatient bed, we already know through community services, improving mental health community services is key to improving the mental health of the nation and indeed ensuring that the resources that are that we have in mental health are used appropriately.

The clinically led review of mental health standards in 2022 under the last government recommended a four week access standard for mental health services. But yet the current average wait is more like six weeks, and I would like to see in other actors operationalised work going on, and maybe the minister could reflect this in his comments, how some of those rates will be brought down. The recently the NHS England introduced six pilots of community transformation and mental health services.

Some of those are delivered by my local mental health trusts Cumbria, Northumberland and Tyne and Wear and I think showed promise and I would be interested as we consider this act in this, these amendments, how the learning from those pilots can be taken forward to further improve community mental health services we need in mental health. Happy to give away. Thank you for giving your way. Similarly.

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In my area, a community. Mental health together. Was. Introduced as well. So that's the whole number.

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So that's the whole number. One thing. That this is explained. I think the. Whole mental health system is so complex. And in.

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system is so complex. And in. Different parts of. The. Country. Practice is different. Way is. One of the issue. And we don't

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One of the issue. And we don't have that continuity and standard. Across the country. Is a big issue in the mental health.

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issue in the mental health. I think the honourable gentleman is absolutely right. I thank him for his intervention and part of the his intervention and part of the issue around poorly reported waiting times, I think, means that it's less easy to see that differential access easy to see that differential access than it would perhaps be in physical health services. And indeed, over health services. And indeed, over the years, when we've seen specialist teams set up, for example, the early intervention in psychosis teams and sort of outreach psychosis teams and sort of outreach teams, which I know my hon.

Friend knows well, given his professional background, they've been introduced background, they've been introduced with very, very good intentions to target specific needs, but it does sometimes make it more difficult for sometimes make it more difficult for patients to get overall care rather than very specialist care for than very specialist care for individual conditions. Madam Deputy Speaker, I won't take any more time, but just to say that I think the but just to say that I think the mantra of investment and reform applies to mental health services as it applies as it should apply to all of our health services.

And in order for us to make further progress in pursuing parity of esteem between mental health and physical health, we not only need to consider these amendments today and pass this legislation to modernise the legislation, but also to ensure that the government has sufficient political priority on reducing and improving mental health services. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Members will have noticed that there are many people trying to stand. In not significant amount of stand. In not significant amount of time for us to have for this debate. So with the exception of front bench contributions, there will be an

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contributions, there will be an immediate four minute time limit. I call Shadow Minister Doctor Luke Evans. Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker, when we last debated. This bill in Second Reading, I said that protecting someone's. Freedom for their own safety is

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Freedom for their own safety is not a licence to own their life, but a duty to help them find it again. That principle.

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That principle. good. Intentions alone. Do not mend a troubled system.

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Compassion without competence. Is not care. It's sentiment without substance. And at Second Reading I spoke of And at Second Reading I spoke of bridges and rough roads, of how resilience and recovery depends on the strength of the structures that carry people through.
16:52
Luke Evans Portrait Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)
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carry people through. Their hardest times. Tonight we return to. That bridge. The question before. Us is not.

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Us is not. About whether we believe in reform. After all, there's cross-party agreement on that, but.

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cross-party agreement on that, but. the. Foundations to. Make. It stand warm. Words are plentiful, but the

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Words are plentiful, but the reality is that too many people are still falling through the gaps. The tensions are still present, community services.

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community services. navigating. A maze of bureaucracy while waiting for help that may.

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Never come. We all know. That reform. Cannot be delivered. On aspiration alone. It requires a delivery.

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a delivery. Plan, a workforce. And a. System capable of. Learning from its own mistakes.

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Learning from its own mistakes. We know the chapter on delivery. Is missing from the. Ten year. NHS plan, and. There's. Further risk.

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Further risk. opportunity. After all, the. Principles in this bill.

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Principles in this bill. Are the right ones. They're even. On the front. Of the bill. Choice and autonomy, least.

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least. Restriction, therapeutic benefit. Treating the person as an individual.

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individual. But these principles need power behind them. And that power.

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behind them. And that power. stage. Is our chance to. Turn those words into commitments. Which is. Why if I turn.

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To new clause 31. It would require. The government to. Publish a fully costed. Delivery plan within 18 months of

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Delivery plan within 18 months of the act passing. Setting out how. Integrated care boards and local. Authorities will deliver.

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Authorities will deliver. Adequate community services. Crucially, this plan must be developed through consultations with developed through consultations with those who know best. That is vital because while we support the many

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because while we support the many aims of the bill, the government already. Has a. Pretty dismal a record of. Announcing reforms without any

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credible plan to deliver. Take the. Ongoing NHS. Reorganisation. In March.

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Ministers made a surprise announcement of the abolition. Of the NHS England and its absorption. Into the Department. Of Health.

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Of Health. And. Social Care. Yet six months on. They. Can't say what it will cost, they can't say.

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can't say. how. It will be paid for. The health service. General reports.

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General reports. system. And warning from NHS leaders that the lack of clarity risks

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paralysing. Decision making. Written receive. The answer. Some upfront cost in the millions.

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the millions. Yet independent estimates say it's over a billion. And even the chief.

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Executive, Sir Jim McKee, points out that. The Treasury. Must agree funding for the Integrated. Care Board. Redundancies within weeks, or the

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NHS. Will have to turn. To. Plan B. The same chaos is playing out

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across our indicated care. Boards, with local leaders. Warning there's. Already destabilisation.

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Already destabilisation. Due to the 50% reductions. their. Own top down reorganisation.

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Own top down reorganisation. Why should anyone believe. ambitious. Overhaul of the mental health

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services without a clear, costed plan. Especially when waiting lists have risen in the last three

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consecutive months? And this. Labour. Government has already cut the. Proportion of spending on mental health.

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health. As Doctor Lade Smith CBE, the president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, said at the time it is.

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is. Illogical that. mental. Health services.

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Being reduced at the time of shortages. The proportion of. NHS funding allocated to.

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Mental health services. Will decrease going on. She said. That will equate to these. Vital.

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Services missing out on an estimated 300 million. Or more. That they would have received if. The share.

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Had been. Maintained. I will give way. Extremely grateful, Tim. Giving

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Extremely grateful, Tim. Giving away on that point. It's that decrease in the proportion of mental health investment standard for the

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health investment standard for the nine. Years is incredibly concerning. It was hard. Won cross-party support that made.

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that made. That go up over time, and it was incremental, but it was starting to make a difference to the system. Would he agree with me that it would be helpful if the government could clarify whether or not this is going to continue? But on 2526, when

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to continue? But on 2526, when Baroness Marin. Came to. Our committee, she could not confirm that. And if there is not

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confirm that. And if there is not system. Needs to know. By frankly now so that they can prepare for.

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It adequately. The Chair of the Select Committee is absolutely right. A simple answer

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is absolutely right. A simple answer from the Minister. Today in report alleviating. Those fears from the mental

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Those fears from the mental health sector. So I look forward to the Minister's response. Turning to amendment 40, which would add a simple but.

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simple but. Important requirement that each. Statutory care. And treatment plan must include an assessment of the. Level of risk.

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an assessment of the. Level of risk. To the public. Safety posed by the patient in the community. Now, the purpose of

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this bill is right. The government wants to. Make it more compassionate, therapeutic, patient centred and

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therapeutic, patient centred and modernised. We strongly agree with this ambition. But modernisation must go hand. In hand with. Public confidence.

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Public confidence. The public and. Patients themselves. Must know that every plan for treatment and discharge is rooted

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treatment and discharge is rooted not only in care, but in safety. And in committee. I argued that the framework still omits. One.

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One. Dimension that's public safety. As far as I can see in the bill, there remains no explicit there remains no explicit requirement for clinicians to assess and record the level of risk posed to those in the public.

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to those in the public. I will give way. On that point. It's an excellent point, and I have had constituents point, and I have had constituents who have come to me with patients who have been released for schizophrenia, for example, and they were released before the psychosis had fully passed. And one of them, it was a very tragic situation that that ended in a death of another resident. And all of this could have been prevented had the patient been kept safely in a bed until they were able to be at a proper level of medication and psychosis had passed.

So we'll, will the Minister, the Shadow Minister, agree with me that this is something that we need to take forward in this bill? It's a win win for all parties and it needs to be brought forward in this bill.

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Yeah. OK. Can I thank you for raising that tragic case. And these are the kind of cases that this amendment. Tries to actually.

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Tries to actually. Deal with. We only have to look. At the tragic cases. Of Nicola Edgington and. Valdo Calocane, how.

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Valdo Calocane, how. Escalating risk happened. And that had huge. Consequences both to.

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The family, the patients and the victims here. And this is something that I did raise in committee. And the minister gave a very thoughtful the minister gave a very thoughtful answer. He said, I quote, if any risk at all to public safety is perceived, that must be documented. It's a basic expectation of the professional management of a particular patient that any risk identified to public safety and identified to public safety and protection must be in there. And I welcome that. But my amendment simply asks if this is indeed the simply asks if this is indeed the government's position, then why not make it clear in the bill? Because the Minister did concede in the report.



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report. gentleman's. Point of whether or not it should be in the Bill. I will come back to be in the Bill. I will come back to him on that, because I would rather be rather surprised if it was not made very clear somewhere that there made very clear somewhere that there is a basic expectation. If it were not, that would obviously need to be looked at, but I'm reasonably confident that.

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He is. Yet unfortunately expected in practice is not the same as required practice is not the same as required in law, and we know from past reviews that there is a gap in the risk assessment and the communication can be too inconsistent. Putting it in statute would not be bureaucracy, it would simply clarify it.

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So I. Recognise the Minister may argue that it already exists in professional codes or in the Mental.

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professional codes or in the Mental. Health Act, code of practice, or even in risk management frameworks. But the statutory. Duty doesn't.

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Duty doesn't. And our amendment puts that squarely. On the bill. Talking of safety, I want to

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Talking of safety, I want to speak to new clause 29, which would an. Adult mental health.

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Ward except in truly exceptional circumstances, and only when demonstrably in the best interests.

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Now, the government argues that guidance already covers this, but the guidance has no teeth. It can.

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It can. Be. Ignored or inconsistently applied. And again, guidance without legal backing is too easily ignored. legal backing is too easily ignored. Now, this was why the Joint Commission on Human Rights argued in their letter that this part of the their letter that this part of the bill needs strengthening. The minister also said that placing these safeguards in legislation these safeguards in legislation would remove flexibility from clinical emergencies. But our clause does allow for exceptional circumstances. It simply asks for them to be justified, recorded and them to be justified, recorded and subject to oversight.

Because we know from research from the University College of London that University College of London that there's been a 65% increase in the number of children and young people admitted for mental health disorders into adult wards, particularly those sharpest among teenage girls with

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eating disorders. Now they. Are. The most vulnerable and they are the ones who bear the brunt of the

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cost. I will give. With young women. This is another reason why I'm shocked that the mental health budget is decreasing. When I am seeing an increase across When I am seeing an increase across my constituency, and I'm sure many others with with girls presenting in secondary school with severe mental health, suicidal tendencies, eating disorders and desperately crying out

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disorders and desperately crying out support. OK Minister. She is absolutely right that we

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She is absolutely right that we need that support there and it's not the budget that's reducing, fortunately, but it is the. Proportion which shows you the Proportion which shows you the priority. These that are being given by this government when it comes to by this government when it comes to mental health. I'm concerned that without this. Clause that when something goes wrong, when a child something goes wrong, when a child is harm traumatised, will place an adult ward without. Prior proper justification.

It's going to be little comfort to the family that decide guidance was breached. Now, decide guidance was breached. Now, turning to children, amendment 41 stands out for a simple but vital principle that when a child is principle that when a child is detained under the Mental Health Act, the person legally recognised to act for them, the nominated person holds parental responsibility only where there is legitimate safeguarding concerns should that be set aside. Now, at first glance this may seem technical, but it speaks to something profound about how the law views childhood, family and the balance between protection and autonomy.

The government are right that the Bill modernises the old nearest relative system, which was too rigid to bound by bloodlines and at times blind to the complexities of family life under the bill as drafted, though a current 16 deemed competent could nominate any adult that could be a 19 year old boyfriend or peer. As someone exercising control. Now, once nominated, that person gets full control. It's a legal authority. We need to ensure that the protection is there for the person.

If there's a breakdown in the family side, I see that I'm getting a nod from the Deputy Speaker, so I will look to solidify my comments into. More erudite approach, especially when I'm instructed to finish within the next two minutes. But I guess at the point of this is we already have the facts that in. Law we have this joint with the Children's Act, which is directly what we have tried to do here to solve the problem. The Children's Act 1989 already defines the cornerstone of our foundations, of what families should look like.

And therefore, I believe the Minister, we have solved his problem about being concerns when they're in committee stage about the state of a family in the modern era, given the fact that in any other walk of life, the legal framework exists, why would we weaken it? When it comes to mental health side of things? We've spoken both in committee, and I was grateful to the minister for meeting beforehand to discuss the issues around A&E and the grey area there, and I know he took on my comments then about solving the practicalities.

I hope he will look at that seriously. And in closing, I argue that for this House, there is no greater moral burden than deciding for someone who cannot decide for themselves where care end and where control begins. This is exactly what this House is doing with this bill. How to protect without diminishing, how to act with compassion, without surrendering position, and how to empower without imposing involuntary care, must never be the reflex of a system, be it under pressure or out of principle.

Here, this House agrees this position. The challenge is delivery. Compassion demands more than good intentions. It demands delivery, discipline and detail. With this bill, the opposition lay the challenge of delivery not just a pledge, but a plan, because the public will judge us all, not just on how kindly this House speaks, but how faithfully it serves those who

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depend on us most. I call. Richard Quigley. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will be speaking to new clauses and amendments tabled in my name, namely clause 28, new clause 36 and namely clause 28, new clause 36 and amendment 39. I brought forward these amendments not just as an MP, but as a father, and I believe after but as a father, and I believe after what my family have been through. Any parent would do the same. Yesterday, alongside the Right honourable member for Salisbury, I honourable member for Salisbury, I heard I had the privilege of hearing Doctor Kate speak about her daughter Ruth.

She shared not only the tragic Ruth. She shared not only the tragic circumstances of Ruth's death, but also the type of person the Ruth was, her dream of becoming a vet,

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was, her dream of becoming a vet, the kindness and the way friends. Described her. As a character straight out of an Ealing blinded novel that is the Ruth of family members and cherishes. As a parent. We become part of a world we never wanted to part of a world we never wanted to know. I am privileged to have met Kate. We both agreed. We wished our paths had never crossed because of what that meant. Ruth was admitted to an inpatient facility for treatment of an eating disorder, but instead of receiving the care she
17:06
Richard Quigley Portrait Mr Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)
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instead of receiving the care she needed, her family was shut out. Allowed only two hour, two two hour visits per week. They spent more time travelling than they did with their daughter. Ruth was just 14 years old when she fatally self-harmed just five months into her stay. Three months from that date, my family were faced with the same hospital honeycomb, their only choice of a bed for our daughter, the same hospital. When asked by a child if they could have an extra type of jam for breakfast in the morning, we're told they didn't have the budget.

When asked why minstrels were no longer part of snack time, they were told that they were eating too many. This is the problem with NHS funded private provision. Even at £900 a night, the operators plead poverty. Me and my wife of two vivid memories of our youngest being prised from us without any warning. We thought that was normal. Six months of Nastro Nastro nasal gastro tube feeding. We thought that was normal illegal restraint so bad it caused PTSD. We thought that was normal.

Forgetting to feed our daughter 11 times, we started to realise that this was normal but not acceptable. Instead of wishing to improve the practice, the hospital have accused me of making this up. If a child is facing any other physical illness such as cancer, or even something more short term, that requires a. Hospital stay. Quite

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rightly, the parental visits and involvement are seen as a means of enhancing care. I genuinely.

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Struggle to understand why our clinical consensus around mental health continues to support a model where. Already vulnerable children where. Already vulnerable children are isolated from their parents. They're very people who know and love them. Most children on these love them. Most children on these wards are treated as wilful. They are not their children. Without empathy of sympathy, many consultants we encountered opted not consultants we encountered opted not to apply the Nice guidelines. Staff were poorly trained and in fear of psychiatrists that ruled the roost psychiatrists that ruled the roost and.

Prevented people speaking up. Along with private equity firms, they have no focus on long term treatment, just turning mental health into money. These amendments do not seek to undermine the strengths of the bill, nor the strengths of the bill, nor the important work undertaken by the department. In fact, the cross-party support I received, including from the Right Honourable Member for the Right Honourable Member for Salisbury, reflects just how uncontroversial they are. The Minister and I have had robust and constructive discussions on the constructive discussions on the matter, but I ask him today to confirm that he will do everything in his power to ensure the following

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in his power to ensure the following that parents are not shut out of their child's care. As evidence. Shows, regular parental contact

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Shows, regular parental contact enhances care outcomes. That the placement of children on adult mental health wards under the Mental mental health wards under the Mental Health Act is. Strictly limited to exceptional circumstances, and that practitioners are actively compelled, where appropriate, to involve themselves in the development and delivery of a child care and treatment plan. We have a duty to ensure that the tragic circumstances surrounding Ruth's death are never repeated. This government was elected with a

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phenomenal majority when in place as we never thought. Possible. Including my own constituency of the Isle of Wight West and on it a platform of meaningful change. If we do not use this moment to do the right thing and acknowledge that children in mental health services more often than not need their parents, then I fear we may never

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get another chance. Liberal Democrat. Chambers.

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Chambers. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to thank I. Want. To begin, actually, by thanking colleagues across this House who colleagues across this House who have worked so constructively on this long awaited bill, and there's been a shared recognition that the been a shared recognition that the current mental health system is failing to many people, and that reform is urgently needed. I'd like reform is urgently needed. I'd like to thank the Minister for so constructively engaging with us throughout this process, including

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throughout this process, including as recently as yesterday. It's very much appreciated. And when I speak to people in Winchester. I.

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Know other members have got very, very similar stories. You know, mental health is one of the issues that comes up the most. We've got
17:10
Danny Chambers Portrait Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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that comes up the most. We've got families waiting months, even years for treatment. We've got parents watching their children deteriorate

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and we have people languishing on waiting lists when. They when they'd. Rather be working or studying.

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Rather be working or studying. Now, this bill represents the biggest reform of mental health care in over 40 years. It strengthens in over 40 years. It strengthens patient autonomy, modernised detention procedures and it rightly detention procedures and it rightly removes police stations as places of safety. Now these are vital and much needed steps forward and I know needed steps forward and I know members on all sides welcome them. I wanted to speak briefly to several new causes tabled in my name, each aimed at strengthening the bill's impact for some of the most vulnerable people.

It seeks to vulnerable people. It seeks to protect. Now new clause 26. This would ensure that every hospital has would ensure that every hospital has a dedicated liaison service for the carers of patients detained under the Mental Health Act. Now this is a the Mental Health Act. Now this is a vital step to support carers during what can be an unimaginably difficult time, and to close blind difficult time, and to close blind spots that too often exist when someone is caring for a loved one with serious mental illness.

Madam Deputy.

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Deputy. Speaker, we. Know that parental mental health concerns and now the most common concerns and now the most common factor in children's social care assessments, and that those children are at much higher risk of developing mental ill health themselves. And yet only around a third of mental health professionals in inpatient settings ask whether a patient is a parent. Now, these children and the carers who support them are too often invisible. By identifying supporting carers properly, this amendment should help close those gaps and ensure that no family has to struggle and silence.

Yes, I am happy with work and it was something that we didn't discuss in specifically in committee, but I'd be interested to know the interaction between the independent mental health advocates that are being expanded, that we all agreed with that committee and now a new

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liaison service, because I worry about the duplication with the that. Cross-over. Would work in practice.

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Would work in practice. The Danny Chambers. I think I'll remember for his his his intervention. It's a very prescient point and it's the prescient point and it's the difference is the part of that at the moment, there's no.

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the moment, there's no. Responsibility to ensure that children in particular, but other carers are identified. And even if there is a even if they put in advance choice documents, if the person making those decisions doesn't identify them, then it's not going to come up, come about. So we'd have to be careful that there isn't unnecessarily duplication. But isn't unnecessarily duplication. But the initiative you put forward wouldn't close the entire the sort of belt and braces approach to of belt and braces approach to identify young carers and other carers who are struggling.

Madam Deputy Speaker, New clause seven Deputy Speaker, New clause seven seeks to end the detention of children and adult wards, requiring the number to be reduced to zero within five years. Other members

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within five years. Other members have discussed this today, and for the Secretary of State to set out how that will be achieved. It simply.

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It simply. Cannot be right that children are still being treated on adult wards. It's unacceptable and can seriously hinder recovery and effective care. So while this bill is rightly focuses on hospital based treatment, the process has also laid bare how fragile our wider mental health services have become. How this lack of early support in primary and community care, and shortage of initiatives that help people long before they reach crisis crisis point. So that is why new clause 14 would place a duty on integrated care boards to ensure that community services have the resources they need to meet the demand and report on this regularly.

Madam Deputy Speaker, keeping people well in their communities must be at the heart of any modern mental health strategy because if we get the community care right, we prevent crises and reduce pressure on hospitals and help people live healthier, more independent lives. And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, new clause 22 would establish a Veterans Mental Health Oversight Officer, a dedicated role to ensure that those who have served our

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country receive the understanding and tailored care they deserve. When they come into. Contact with mental health services. Too often, veterans services. Too often, veterans experience mental ill health. Sometimes this is linked to their service, and they find themselves in service, and they find themselves in systems that do not fully recognise their unique experiences. This proposal would help change that by providing proper oversight, encouraging joined up working across the NHS, veteran services and the third sector and ensuring that compassion and accountability sit at the heart of how the Mental Health Act is applied to veterans.

So, taken together, these proposals are about making our mental health about making our mental health system even more humane, more joined up, more focussed on prevention and recovery, and I hope the government recovery, and I hope the government will take them in the spirit in which they are intended, which is to strengthen this important bill,

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which we do very much support and deliver a system that truly supports those who need it most. Thank you.

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Up to some how made. Thank you. I will be. Speaking on new. Clause 35 to the bill, which sets

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Clause 35 to the bill, which sets out the conditions under which Community Treatment Orders can be extended beyond 12 months. Like many

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extended beyond 12 months. Like many across my constituency of Sheffield Central, I know personally. health. Services are.

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Services are. My brother. needs. firsthand. The. Impact of a.

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Churning work. Workforce. Long waiting list and a lack of community support services
17:15
Abtisam Mohamed Portrait Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)
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a lack of community support services brought about by an unrelenting crisis in funding. Our system. Has not been properly.

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Has not been properly. Instead. Far too many. People are detained and restricted rather than supported to

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recover. And nowhere do we see. This more acutely than in. The. In the over.

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Overuse of. Community Treatment Orders. Community Treatment Orders was supposed to be a bridge from.

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Hospital to home, just for those constantly. Be admitted to hospital. People have described. Them as a tank.

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Them as a tank. That nobody can see. But you know, it's. Around your mind. And the evidence shows. That.

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That. They have not met their intended purposes. With three major. Studies having found that no hospital.

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Time. Through. Their use. Yet. Despite the last government promising reform, community

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treatment orders have continued. Reform has been too. Slow. And too narrow in scope. In Sheffield.

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In Sheffield. We're proud to be one of six national pilot sites for the Neighbourhood Mental Health Centre scheme, providing round the clock scheme, providing round the clock access to local joined up care. But if these ambitions will work, they must be matched by real investment, not only in our hospitals and clinical teams, but in the voluntary and community sector that so often hold the system together. Is the community organisations, the peer support groups, the faith networks, the youth workers and the cultural centres who are the glue that keep people well between their appointments.

They offer culturally competent, person centred care. We should those whom statutory services often miss and rebuild trust where the system has failed. Yet too many of these groups are stretched to breaking point, expected to do more with less to fill the gaps left by underfunded public services. That's why my amendment reintroduces 12 month standard for Community Treatment Orders, requiring a formal review after a year involving the patient, the nominated person and a second doctor. It ensures transparency, scrutiny and, crucially, a patient voice in the process.

I welcome ministers assurances that a code of practice can provide these safeguards, but guidance can only reflect the law. It cannot replace it. That must be what we do in this House. If we want people to trust mental health services, we must write into legislation the expectation of good quality, tailored and reliable services. If we want people to have enforceable rights, those rights must be written into legislation. And if we want evidence based healthcare, that we must be bold enough to follow up where the

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evidence does not demonstrate the policies benefit and reflect that in left legislation. Healthcare.

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Healthcare. John Glen thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I rise to support Speaker, and I rise to support amendments. New clause 29 and 28 and 39. And first of all, I'd like to
17:18
John Glen Portrait Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)
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39. And first of all, I'd like to pay tribute to the honourable member, the member for Isle of Wight West, who mentioned my constituent and the tragic case of the loss of their daughter Ruth. And it's my experience of listening to her, her story that has made me support these amendments. And I want to finish my remarks in a moment or two with what she asked me to say in this House. Kate Mankiewicz is a GP in Salisbury.

Her husband is a surgeon and their daughter, Ruth took her own life aged 14. She was unlawfully killed whilst in a child's mental health facility. That's what actually happened. That's what was exposed in the court case this summer. And what happened to Ruth was a tragedy. The system didn't work as it was supposed to work. And I am anxious today that the Minister should not rely on the advice and understandings of officials. The guidance that is in place, and I would ask that he would really be assured in his own mind that the legislation that he's going to take forward would mean that this would not happen again.

I won't go into the whole story, but essentially, Ruth was placed in a facility, a two hour drive from her home. She wasn't technically placed out of area. However, the family would spend more time driving to see her than they would be allowed to actually spend with her. He's a wonderful, loving parents who did everything they could, everything in their power to support their daughter through a condition that she could and should have recovered from. But because she was sectioned under the Mental Health Act to allow her to be force fed, then what happened was her parents technically lost many of their rights to involvement in their daughter's care.

They had a wonderful, loving relationship with their daughter. She was a happy child who was determined to get better, and her family were keen to see that this happened. She was sectioned only to allow her to be fed. But the consequence, the knock on consequence of that, was that the dynamic between parents and their daughter, who was a patient, just changed as adult protocols were put.

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In place. I said to Kate yesterday when she

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I said to Kate yesterday when she visited Parliament, I said, what would you what would you like me to would you what would you like me to say on your behalf? And she said say on your behalf? And she said this. She said, I think this is what I'd like you to say on my behalf today, John, if your child is unwell, I must go into hospital. Whether that is because of a physical illness such as a cancer or a mental health illness, like an a mental health illness, like an eating disorder, they need to know that their mum or dad or caregiver can be there with them whenever they need to help them through a scary and vulnerable time.

Children cannot and vulnerable time. Children cannot be treated in isolation. They need the support of those who love and the support of those who love and know them best. Their family. Families need to be at the heart of our health system in order for children to heal, and for their children to heal, and for their families to heal with them when the next child is in crisis, which is right now, I ask you all not to turn away, but to grasp this opportunity to make the Mental Health Act a champion for their wellbeing.

Proves. Please include all these amendments to safeguard the amendments to safeguard the generation of young people. Thank you. Here. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill addresses fundamental flaws in our current mental health legislation in relation to the rights of people with learning disabilities and with learning disabilities and autistic people, and I will focus in my comments and amendments. I've my comments and amendments. I've tabled new clause 32 and new clause 33, which are.
17:22
Richard Baker Portrait Richard Baker MP (Glenrothes and Mid Fife, Labour)
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Also about.

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Legislation and relate to close links to the powerful comments made by both the member for Salisbury and the member for other. And their contributions. At new clause 32, we contributions. At new clause 32, we provide for mandatory independent care, education and treatment of use care, education and treatment of use for patients detained in long term segregation. In her report, My Heart segregation. In her report, My Heart Breaks, Baroness Hollins highlighted the harms. And sufferings which are so often associated with long term segregation and assessed how introducing Care (Education) and Treatment Reviews can reduce

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Treatment Reviews can reduce incidents and use. Or segregation. I very much welcome the provisions on reviews of care and treatments, which ministers have already included in the bill. They are welcome, but it has now been demonstrated that these

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demonstrated that these independently chaired reviews are making a real. Difference and lead to inappropriate long term segregation. Being challenged.

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Being challenged. And addressed, and the human impacts of. That will be substantive. My amendment would make these

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My amendment would make these reviews a requirement where someone has been placed in segregation for 72 hours. My Second Amendment 72 hours. My Second Amendment review, clause 33, seeks to introduce a new level of scrutiny in

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introduce a new level of scrutiny in disability. Have been. Detained for more than. Five years. I believe it's a very strong case

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for an additional check and balance, where people. Have been. Under detention and compulsory

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Under detention and compulsory measures for so many years. I understand that the latest data for England shows that 350 people with disability autism who are currently in inpatient units have been detained there for over ten years. detained there for over ten years. In a previous role, I provided advocacy for the family of a young man child who has a learning man child who has a learning disability. He's a patient in the state hospital in Carstairs in Scotland. His family live in the

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Scotland. His family live in the north east of Scotland. His mother and grandmother have to make a round trip of nearly seven. Hours. To see Kyle for visits,

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Hours. To see Kyle for visits, which have in the. Past been restricted to a single hour. Kyle was convicted of no crime hour. Kyle was convicted of no crime when he was admitted to Carstairs in 2009. He has been there for 16 2009. He has been there for 16 years. The toll this has taken on his family has been horrendous. It is devastating for them and there is is devastating for them and there is no evidence in sight. While that is a case for the Scottish mental health system, it has provided me health system, it has provided me with an insight into what many people.

With learning disabilities

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and their families will be experiencing in England today, and the limitations of mental. Health tribunals in dealing.

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Health tribunals in dealing. With these issues. People with learning disabilities losing their liberty for years because of their disability is a human rights emergency. It is clear we have to do far more to prevent these situations from happening. This bill will help do that with its welcome measures on

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prevention. But where these. Cases are happening. Now, I believe there should be an additional level of scrutiny, an extra check and balance so that after so long, someone with the right level of authority and

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right level of authority and expertise can. Challenge providers. To do better and ask that question how can it be that someone question how can it be that someone has lost their liberty, their rights for family life? Because we can't make their commentary at work in a.

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make their commentary at work in a. Community setting? Again, I very much welcome the introduction of the care, education. And treatment reviews.

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And treatment reviews. But in these circumstances, I believe we should go further. And that is why my amendment makes

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provision for notification to the Care Quality Commission. Where someone has been detained for more than five years.

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This is an excellent bill. It will do so much the rights of people with learning disabilities and autism in this country. But I think autism in this country. But I think there are several areas where I hope the Minister cannot line for further ambitions that the government has to ensure that our mental health system
17:26
Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)
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ensure that our mental health system is fit for purpose and as a human rights base for the future. To squeeze in a few more

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To squeeze in a few more backbenchers speaking limit is now three minutes and I go to Layla moran. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a very welcome bill, long overdue, but frankly will not even touch the sides of what most of our constituents and communities need when it comes to the wider mental health landscape. So I support many of the amendments that are trying to improve it, not least those laid down by my

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honourable friends on the Liberal Democrat benches. I need to make a couple of quick. Points.

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Points. Because we want this to succeed. Since December, the Minister will conducting. An inquiry.

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An inquiry. services. Because we recognise. That unless we start tackling the

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That unless we start tackling the upstream, we are not going to achieve what this bill wants. And achieve what this bill wants. And for so many, it feels like they are walking through an NHS desert. They

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walking through an NHS desert. They simply can't get the appointments they need, they don't feel supported and no. One can navigate a complex

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system. And then just a few weeks ago, while still on maternity. Leave. I decided.

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I decided. To have a keeping in touch day and the committee. Went to go visit an. Oasis in.

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This desert, which was. Neighbourhood. Mental Health. Centre in Tower Hamlets.

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It's one of the six pilots. It's incredible. It unfortunately. Is the. Only one that is set up to this

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Only one that is set up to this level. Across the country. There are six others and what we heard was some amazing stories of how people some amazing stories of how people had been diverted away from inpatient mental health units by inpatient mental health units by approach that truly put the patient at its centre. It was inspiring, but we did also hear from the centre that their funding will not continue beyond April. They only just starting to gather the data needed.

System change is desperately needed in this space, but the concern is that the system is going to change without the robust data behind it. So my question to the minister is, are the centres going to be funded beyond April, and if not, then how can the department be making decisions about the system based on data that isn't a full calendar year? But I also want to speak in support of amendment nine. I want to pay tribute to Cyril and Diane, whose son Liam suffered many years from schizophrenia and sadly completed suicide in January 2019.

He was let down by Community Mental Health Services. Leon's mother, Diane, saw the illness get worse and worse and when she tried to re refer him into the system after he had been detained, she was told computer says no. This bill improves the lives of families like Diane and Leon because under the new nominated persons, part of the bill, Diane's pleas would have been heard. The extra amendment, in order to make sure that the plan would be shared by parents and carers, and that nominated person would be an extra step.

But I want to pay tribute to those who have campaigned so doggedly, and for the inclusion of the nominated persons in the Bill. Anna Dixon Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm no expert on mental health law, but I do have decades of experience in the health and care sector, and my sister is a psychiatrist, and I know that the decision to detain someone with severe mental illness is never with severe mental illness is never taken lightly, and psychiatrists must weigh up a range of factors and information in order to come to information in order to come to final decision.

I've tabled amendments 43.
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Anna Dixon Portrait Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)
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detention criteria mention of likelihood, or may be concerned, to allow psychiatrists to make a straightforward, holistic assessment of individual risk in the context of significant mental disorder. The risk is that likelihood suggests it's possible for clinicians to predict serious harms, such as violence or suicide, when this isn't possible, and the idea of causation neglects the fact that there are complex background conditions that can be the genesis of a harm. There is a risk to that. The language may be may lead to preventative detention, more detentions, not less.

It's always easier with hindsight, when unexpected harms have happened, to go back and ask, why was this person not detained? And to oversimplify causation, it's critical for me that those who are tasked with interpreting detention criteria feel comfortable with what they are interpreting. And I believe in its current form, that Bill risks inadvertently leading to months of practice. And as we know, defensive practice is not usually good quality care. So I do hope the Minister will explain how he will ensure that the detention criteria, as currently drafted, will not lead to these unintended consequences.

I, of course, welcome that the mental Health Bill puts into practice the principles of the Wessely review and in particular, the aim of reducing detention in favour of supporting more people in the community. There are always going to be instances where people do, however. Need to be detained in an inpatient setting, and it's vital that that investment in those facilities. I'm delighted that in my own constituency, Linfield Mount Hospital has recently secured funding to implement a fantastic plan to upgrade its inpatient facilities with these facilities that can help ensure that people are treated closer to home and get the support to recover.

They can maintain relationships with family, friends and colleagues, and it enables people to restart their life post detention. So I commend these amendments to the Minister. Gregory Stafford, thank you.
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Gregory Stafford Portrait Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)
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Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. opportunity to closely examine the development and scrutiny of this bill. Working alongside my opposition colleagues, we.

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Sought to strengthen the. Legislation, particularly in relation to safeguarding. Children and ensuring robust protections for and ensuring robust protections for those admitted under the Mental Health Act framework. Given the shortness of time, I only want to speak about amendments 41 and 42, which make a vital clarification. But for any patient under the age of But for any patient under the age of 16, the nominated person must have parental or guardian responsibility unless there are clear and established safeguarding concerns. established safeguarding concerns.

In essence, it ensures that parents remain the lawful decision makers and the first and most natural safeguard for their child's welfare. Let us consider for a moment what is at stake. Imagine a vulnerable 14 year. Old girl, frightened and confused during a psychiatric admission. In that moment of admission. In that moment of distress, a well-meaning adult, or worse, someone with a hidden agenda could persuade the child to nominate them as their representative. That individual would then gain legal individual would then gain legal powers to object to treatment or discharge decisions, while the parents, the very people who know parents, the very people who know the child best and have both a moral and a legal duty to protect them, could be sidelined.

Once such a

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could be sidelined. Once such a nomination is witnessed, it carries. Legal force. The rights and responsibilities of parents could, in effect, be overridden. And while in effect, be overridden. And while that might sound hypothetical, it isn't. Family courts have seen precisely how manipulative individuals exploit vulnerable young people. Groomers, traffickers and abusers thrive in the grey zones of the law. And if we are not crystal clear that only a court may displace parental responsibility, then we risk leaving the door ajar for such exploitation.

So I ask the minister in his wind ups, can he assure the House that no child under 16 will be permitted to override parental authority simply by nominating somebody else without a full and proper judicial process? The bill does have full breakfast provisions, and they of course, welcome, but they are not watertight unless the law explicitly and explicitly confirms that only a court can transfer or restrict parental rights. I think you earn that point, and the member makes an excellent point, because the only two protections that I could see in schedule two are the fact that there's an age requirement and a stipulation not to be disqualified by a previous court order, and then the witness specifically.

There is no, therefore, no, forward pre-emptive way of protecting people, which is why this amendment is so important. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and both he and I made these points at the bill committee stage, and I'm surprised that the Minister doesn't see the risks here, because that safeguard that my honourable friend talks about must be beyond any doubt. And this amendment in his name provides exactly that clarity and prevents any kind of unrelated or loosely connected individuals from stepping into a role that rightfully belongs with both a legal duty and an emotional bond.

The parents or guardians Guardians. It preserves that fundamental principle that parents should not find their role diminished by accident or administrative oversight. Madam speaker, as I said, this is an this isn't an abstract risk. It is a very real and foreseeable consequence of this unclear drafting. These amendments do not weaken the rights of patients. Not at all. It strengthens the protections around them. It ensures that in modernising this law, quite rightly, we do not inadvertently undermine the oldest and most important protection of all a parent's duty to safeguard their child.

And we must ensure that the state can only curtail that right under the strictest judicial scrutiny. With evidence tested and the child's welfare paramount. In doing so, we will make this legislation not only legally sound, but, in my view, morally right. Briefly touching on new clause 31, which would require local authorities and ICBs to supply a fully costed plan to ensure they are able to provide adequate community services for people with learning disabilities and autistic people. In the name of my hon.

Friend from Hinckley and Bosworth, I support this entirely. Madam Deputy Speaker, as the vice chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for Senate, and from speaking to groups such in my constituency, such as last Wednesday and Growing Hope, I know the process around centre is so complicated and isn't fit for purpose, and fortunately we have a chance to help it slightly within this bill. So I ask the Minister

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please do support this amendment. So hon. Friend Sojan Joseph. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to speak. In support of clause. 37, which has been tabled my.
17:36
Sojan Joseph Portrait Sojan Joseph MP (Ashford, Labour)
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37, which has been tabled my. Parliament. In my speech in the Second Reading debate, I warmly welcomed.

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The changes that this legislation. Will introduce regarding. Autistic people. Or those who

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have learning disability. As a result, it will no. detained. In a mental health hospital

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In a mental health hospital indefinitely simply because someone has autism or a learning disability. people.

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people. And those with a. Learning disability have experience. In the care. Over medication and

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In the care. Over medication and extended period of. Detention because of lack of. Facilities in.

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Facilities in. NHS and social care. So this change is welcome and long overdue. As those changes are introduced.

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As those changes are introduced. The government has confirmed that the changes will be implemented once

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it's. The necessary community provision in place, establishing strong support within the community. Is essential.

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Is essential. Not only for enabling. Safe discharge from. Hospital setting, but also for preventing unnecessary.

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Admission in. The first place. I recognise that the. Government is working on setting out strong community. Services look like and what services, what. Resources they require to implement

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them. From serving with the Minister on committee. I have no doubt about this commitment to ensuring that.

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commitment to ensuring that. These community. Provisions are introduced in a timely manner, but I introduced in a timely manner, but I do support my. Honourable friend for Thurrock amendment that the as part of the legislation, there.

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of the legislation, there. Should be a roadmap that will. Provide a clear framework outlining how they will be

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outlining how they will be inappropriate. Detention requires. Robust, community based alternatives to ensure that people with autism or learning disability who would have previously been

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who would have previously been system. Having a roadmap. Developed in conjunction with autistic people,

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people with learning. Disabilities, their carers and with healthcare. Professionals will help to identify and address any help to identify and address any gaps in services, provision. believe.

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believe. That it will help to reduce the. Risk of people with autism or a learning disability needing. Police intervention. Or.

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Or. Emergency hospital care, because. There is. Inadequate support in place.

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Inadequate support in place. By putting in. Place a roadmap, my. Honourable friends amendment. Will. Help to. Ensure that. We the end.

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We the end. The injustice. Of people with autism or learning disability being detained all the sooner. Thank. Deputy Speaker and I'll speak to amendments in my name, 24 to 28 and 36 to 38, which address address gaps in crisis provision and accountability for autistic people and people with learning disabilities. And Second Reading I told this House about Declan Morrison, my constituent who died aged just 26 after spending ten days
17:39
Ian Sollom Portrait Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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in a section 136 suite that was wholly inappropriate for his complex wholly inappropriate for his complex needs. A remind the House section one through six weeks are designed one through six weeks are designed for 24 hours days maximum 36 at. In extreme cases. The coroner who extreme cases. The coroner who investigated Declan's death found that there is a risk that future deaths could occur unless action is deaths could occur unless action is taken and the timeline of what happened in the run up to Declan happened in the run up to Declan death shows a cascade of systemic failures.

Declan's family, Graham, Sam and Caitlin have asked me to ensure that Parliament learns from what happened and these amendments what happened and these amendments in my name reflect those lessons and the coroner's recommendations. Now. the coroner's recommendations. Now. Committee stage. The minister made several points about earlier versions of these amendments, which I've tried to address in these I've tried to address in these revised versions, in particular on crisis accommodation. The Minister crisis accommodation. The Minister argued that existing duties on ICBs already cover crisis provision and that the amendment was too prescriptive, potentially restricting ICBs in designing provision, emphasising the provision, emphasising the importance of flexibility for ICBs to meet local needs.

Now I understand the desire not to be overly prescriptive, but in Declan's case, over 100 places were contacted and no suitable accommodation could be found anywhere in the country. Flexibility failed Declan, and this revised version of the amendment does allow for regional solutions beyond the ICB, but I suspect the minister will still find this too prescriptive. But it does ask the fundamental question should there not be a duty to ensure provision exists somewhere? Now, the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough ICB did establish a crisis service after Declan's death, and it operated at 98% capacity, so demonstrating both need and viability.

But when funding was withdrawn, it closed. And that highlights the challenge with voluntary provision, which my right honourable friend give me, I will give way. Thank you. I'd like to thank my right honourable friend for giving way, and I particularly to speak on on the issue of funding the Devon Partnership Trust Fund looks after people with mental health challenges in the community to Torbay community, where we have particularly high levels of deaths of despair. They're facing a £21 million cut. Do you agree with me that what we need is adequate funding as changes will be irrelevant? I absolutely agree that the resources need to be placed to support the many good measures in this bill and in many of the amendments proposed and in fact, services in the case of decline in services created in the wake of tragedy.

And that funding was found, but it too, they too often disappear when attention moves elsewhere. Now recognise the implementation challenges are real and appreciate that the Minister has committed to annual written statements on progress. But I do believe the principles in these amendments around crisis provision, proactive intervention, accountability and co-production with autistic people themselves merit consideration. And as much as I would like him to, I don't expect the Minister will have a late change of heart on these amendments today, but I do hope he will be willing to meet with me after the Bill receives Royal Assent to discuss how we can work together to ensure the systemic failures that led to Declan's death are properly addressed during the implementation of this bill.

In stopping those

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systemic failures, we would honour the memory of Declan. Thank you. Dean.

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Dean. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the interest of time, I'll turn straight to new clause 25, tabled in my name. to new clause 25, tabled in my name. The bill sets out a range of situations where a patient aged under 16 competence will be

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relevant, but it does not. Set. should. Be determined. This puts patients under 16 years
17:43
Josh Dean Portrait Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)
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This puts patients under 16 years old at a huge disadvantage. Unlike those aged 16 and over, there is no. Clear mechanism for determining.

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Clear mechanism for determining. Determining whether a child under. 16 can make. Decisions, and. The law assumes that under 16

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The law assumes that under 16 cannot make decisions for themselves unless they. Demonstrate they're able to do so. This means that under 16th May not benefit fully from the

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16th May not benefit fully from the rights and safeguards. Set out in the bill, because they are assumed to lack competence to make the relevant decision.

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make the relevant decision. For example, they may not be able to exercise. Their right to choose a nominated.

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Person or to access. Enhanced safeguards around treatment. Now, there is currently. No statutory test for determining a No statutory test for determining a child's ability to make decisions. While some may refer to Gillick competence. The Joint Committee on the Draft Mental Health Bill noted that the Gillick competence is broad, ambiguous, and with

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significant inconsistencies in its application. A similar observation was made by the Court of Appeal in a decision earlier this year. Which.

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Which. Also indicated the court's approval of a functional test to determine a child's competence. New determine a child's competence. New clause 25 therefore addresses this disparity by introducing a functional test to determine an functional test to determine an under 16 ability to decide. This reflects the suggested approach in the current code of practice and the current code of practice and adopted by some judges, and the Law Commission has recommended a similar test as part of its proposed legal reform concerning disabled children's social care.

This test fills a significant gap in the bill, fills a significant gap in the bill, providing important clarity for professionals where a child's competence needs to be determined. Crucially, the test set out in new clause 25 is explicitly limited to decisions made under the reformed Mental Health Act. It does not cover decisions falling outside of the act, so does not affect existing decision making powers of the courts decision making powers of the courts or those with parental responsibility. A clear and consistent approach to assessing a child's competence can only be achieved by including a test on the face of the bill, as the code of practice can only reflect the law and cannot prescribe a test for competence.

I'd be grateful if the Minister could address this point in his remarks at the end of this debate, and if he would consider meeting with me to discuss my amendment in more detail. There are many strengths in this bill that will deliver for people and modernise mental health care, and I think it's crucial that we ensure children and young people can benefit from them in the same way
17:45
Iqbal Mohamed Portrait Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)
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that adults can. Iqbal Mohamed thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The bill you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The bill gives us a real opportunity to modernise mental health law and to make sure that patient choice and make sure that patient choice and fairness are at the heart of the mental health services. But to achieve that, we must first confront the deep inequalities that shape people's experience of health and mental health care, particularly for mental health care, particularly for ethnic minority communities, those facing economic hardship and for young people.

Like so many issues, young people. Like so many issues, the intersectionality between these factors mean some groups face particular challenges in navigating particular challenges in navigating and accessing the help they need. In Dewsbury and Batley, we see the human reality of that inequality. human reality of that inequality. Rates of depression stand at 15.4% higher than the national average, and schizophrenia is also more common locally in comparison to other constituencies in the UK. other constituencies in the UK. Across Yorkshire and the North, mental ill health is consistently, consistently higher than elsewhere in England, and it just data and mental health organisations are clear, both ethnic background and wealth disparity play a major role wealth disparity play a major role in this gap.

People in my constituency are more likely to experience a mental health experience a mental health condition, yet the funding for research and specialised services in the north remains lower. That means less support, fewer beds and fewer opportunities to provide specialist care. That is why I support strongly support new clause 13 that requires every hospital to have a named person responsible for overseeing race equality in how the Mental Health Act is applied, black people are still four times more likely to be detained under the act, and eight times more likely to be placed on a community treatment order.

Without accountability, those injustices will continue. I also support new clause 35, in the name of my honourable friend from Sheffield Central, which seeks to limit put limits on CTOs. We must also do far more for young people and the new clause proposed by my honourable friend from Hertford and Stortford powerfully argues for giving under 16 a clearer say in their own treatment decisions. A mother told me how both daughters needed mental health support, yet she had to seek private care because local services were overstretched and not up to standard.

She pointed me to the Good Childhood report, which shows that children's wellbeing in the UK is amongst the lowest in the UK. I also support New Clause 28, which proposes the urgent need to stop children being placed in adult wards or sent miles away from home for treatment. So I welcome the work of West Yorkshire ICB had done recently to expand mental health services for older people. But we must match that ambition for children and young people too. If those commitments cannot be, cannot all be secured in this bill, then this must be delivered in the forthcoming Children and Well Being Bill.
17:48
Jen Craft Portrait Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)
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Final contribution Jen Craft. All those that have contributed should make their.

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Back to the chamber. Jen Craft. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I. Will.

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Be as brief as is very possible. clause. name.

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Which seeks to support the government in ending the scandal. Of the inappropriate. Detention of people with a learning disability.

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learning disability. And or autism. And I will declare an interest as. The Chair. Of the All-Party parliamentary. Group.

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Group. On Learning Disability. Currently, a learning disability of autism in and of themselves can be grounds. For detention.

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For detention. Under the Mental Health Act. absolute. Scandal. Something from a previous age.

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And something that should bring moral shame on everyone in our community. However, the Mental community. However, the Mental Health Bill seeks to address this by removing autism or learning disability as a criteria in and of itself to be detained under the Mental Health Act, which offers a lifeline, a lifeline, a light in the lifeline, a lifeline, a light in the tunnel of darkness that a number of people who are detained under this current act face. However, clauses current act face.

However, clauses three and four under this act, the impact assessment states that the proposed changes to this detention criteria will only be switched on when systems are able to demonstrate when systems are able to demonstrate sufficient levels of community support for those who have a learning disability or autism who are detained under the Mental Health Act, their families and carers organisations which supports them and people who advocate for them. They know that too often this vulnerable group of people are pushed to the bottom of a competing list of priorities and very often slide off.

We know that this government has a number of competing priorities to deliver on. We know that the Department of Health and Social Care has a number of competing delivery, competing priorities to deliver on, and the concern for people who fall into this bracket is that their concerns just will not be met, and that this absolute scandal of seeing people who have a learning disability or autism detained because our community services just aren't up to snuff, because we have so categorically failed them that the only thing that we can think to do is to lock them away from society, that that system that will continue in perpetuity.

My I will not, because I am very aware that I'm almost out of time. But thank you. My amendment seeks to introduce a roadmap that will make sure that the government sets out, within six months of this bill, receiving Royal Assent, that will engage in a productive way with people with learning disabilities, autism, their advocates, organisations that champion their rights to design what they need to support them to leave independent, dignified lives in the community, and to report every year to say how we are getting to that place where community services will be at a sufficient place to put these much needed clauses in the bill will be switched on.

This bill updates mental health legislation and brings it into the 21st century. It is only right that it does so for everyone in our society, including the most vulnerable. For wind ups. I call the Minister Stephen Kinnock.
17:52
Stephen Kinnock Portrait Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)
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Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank everyone in the chamber today for their contributions to today's debate. I'd like to start just by talking about the deeply moving contributions in today's debate regarding the tragic death of Ruth Simunovic. I extend my heartfelt condolences to Ruth's family and pay tribute to the honourable members for Isle of Wight West and Salisbury for so powerfully advocating on behalf of Ruth and her family. The circumstances around Ruth's death were unacceptable and should never have happened, and we acknowledge multiple failings in her care.

Turning now to the amendments, whilst we are not accepting any changes to the bill, I hope I can assure the House in the very short time remaining to me, that we are taking action to address the concerns that are rightly raised in relation to new relation to new

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clauses six, seven, 29 and 36. We absolutely do not. Want young.

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Want young. People placed in adult wards, and we are clear that patients should get treatment close to home. However, further legislative However, further legislative restrictions on placements. Risks leaving clinicians without options in emergencies or potentially preventing treatment that is in the preventing treatment that is in the patient's best interests. NHS England has worked with hundreds of children and families to develop a children and families to develop a new service specification for children and young people's mental health services. The specification health services.

The specification is for commissioners and providers to follow, defining the care expected from organisations funded by NHS England to provide by NHS England to provide specialised care. This will reaffirm that children. I will give way, but I've got very, very little time. I've got a lot of amendments to address so I'm not going to take. I thank the Minister for giving way. I thank the Minister for giving way. I had the privilege of meeting Helena and Christina, who shared with me the challenges they faced when their

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the challenges they faced when their mother was sectioned when they were young girls. For two weeks, the responsibility of care was. Left entirely.

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Left entirely. In their hands. While local services struggled to find a suitable bed. Can the minister suitable bed. Can the minister confirm that through the Mental Health Bill, in conjunction with the Children and Wellbeing Bill, young carers will be properly identified and that the additional boost in government investment directly into mental health services will ensure young carers receive the support they need. I thank you and I can give him that assurance. One of the core purposes of this bill is to ensure that we do catch issues like that, particularly around the identification of children in cases where parents are required for detention.

We will reaffirm that children should be treated in the least restrictive, age appropriate environment close to home and family, and that all services would work towards alternatives to admission, such as day-care and intensive home treatment and better support for visits, including with dedicated family areas and overnight stays. We have committed £75 million for systems to invest in reducing out-of-area placements, and I am pleased to report that the number of children placed on adult wards is now decreasing, a trend that must continue.

We have also committed, on the face of the bill, to review the existing CQC notification requirements, including whether notifications should be extended to other incidents and whether the time period remains appropriate. We will work with families, clinicians and MPs as part of this review. Indeed.

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Following recent conversations. With my friends, the members. For Isle of Wight West and.

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Lowestoft, I have asked officials to host a roundtable next month with honourable members and experts on how we can provide greater clarity how we can provide greater clarity in the code. The focus will also be on NHS England service specifications and regulations on specifications and regulations on the placement of children and young people in adult wards, including determining if a placement is suitable. The revised code, which we suitable. The revised code, which we will engage on extensively, including with children and their families and carers, will provide further opportunity to address concerns raised by other members in amendment 33, 39 and new clause 28.



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amendment 33, 39 and new clause 28. The code will also address. The issue of competency. We believe this is more appropriate than a test. For competency.

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For competency. Within the act, as in new clauses 15 and 25. I will give way, but please very short. I'm grateful to please very short. I'm grateful to the young gentleman and for what he said about my constituent. But there are so many codes of best practice, are so many codes of best practice, so many guidelines. Can you say a bit more about what force they would have, so we could have some reassurance that this will eliminate the risks that were so tragic in the case of my constituent.

The code of practice will be statutory, and the reason that it's better to have practice.

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practice. Is because, of course. Clinical practice evolves, and it

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is much better and easier to. Revise code of practice than. It. Is to go through primary legislation. In relation.

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To young carers. We understand the concerns in new clauses 26 and 27 and that despite existing duties, the right questions are not always the right questions are not always being asked to identify children when someone is detained. Whilst we do not agree, additional legal duties are.

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duties are. Needed, especially. As. Multi-agency working. Is. Already being strengthened through the Children and Wellbeing through the Children and Wellbeing Bill, we do agree that we need to make the requirements more explicit. The revised Code of Conduct Practice will therefore set out that when will therefore set out that when someone is detained, steps must be taken to identify the children of the patient. Information about the patient. Information about support available must be shared and the appropriate referral. If a Young Carers needs assessment is required, Carers needs assessment is required, must be made.

Turning now to amendments 41 and 42. I'm really struggling for time. I'm very sorry struggling for time. I'm very sorry I can't take any more interventions because it's not fair to people who've made amendments. Turning to amendments 41 and 42. These would.

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Prevent a. Child with competence from choosing a stepparent or kinship carer as their nominated person.

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carer as their nominated person. If they are the most. Appropriate person for them. A nominated person can be overruled or displaced if acting overruled or displaced if acting against the child's best interest. Parents will always maintain their rights under parental

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responsibility. Many amendments concerns statutory care and treatment reviews designed to help. Ensure. People with a learning.

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Disability and autistic people treatment. Whilst detained, and barriers to

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Whilst detained, and barriers to discharge are overcome. Reviews will happen within 28 days of detention and at least once a year during detention.

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This can be more. Frequent depending. On needs. Patients. Families and advocates can request a review meeting at any

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request a review meeting at any point on new. Clause 32. We've consulted. On making some. Restrictive practices, including.

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Restrictive practices, including. Long term segregation. Notifiable to CQC.

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to CQC. Within 72 hours. Turning to amendments 1426. New clause 31 and amendments 1426. New clause 31 and 37. I acknowledge the importance of having a clear plan to resource community provision for people with

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community provision for people with a learning disability and autistic. People to implement these reforms. We. Have committed to an annual

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Have committed to an annual written ministerial statement on implementation of the Bill. Post Royal Assent, following conversations with.

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conversations with. My hon. Friend, the member for Thurrock. We will work. With stakeholders, including people with lived experience, to shape our roadmap.

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shape our roadmap. For commencing changes. To section three. The WMS will update. On progress as well as.

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On progress as well as. Setting out future plans. It is not possible to commit to the specifics of. Implementation and.

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Implementation and. Community support at this stage. Which depend on the. Final legislation, past future spending. Reviews and engagement.

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With stakeholders. To get. Implementation planning right. On the concerns raised by my honourable

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the concerns raised by my honourable friend the member for Shipley around the detention. Criteria in the Bill. likelihood. Is.

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Is. Included in the detention. Criteria to set clear. Expectations of what clinicians need to consider. However.

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However. We are we are clear that our intention is not to set a threshold for detention under the new criteria for detention under the new criteria are. Harm does not have to be likely to justify detention. The criteria to justify detention. The criteria require likelihood to be considered holistically alongside the change

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and nature, and decree degree of the harm. And finally. Turning to public safety. As I know, the Shadow Minister is very. Keen to.

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Keen to. Get a point on that. The key point here is that we have detention point here is that we have detention criteria in clause five of the bill that clearly refers to harm, either that clearly refers to harm, either to the patient or to other persons. That is a clear consideration of public safety. And so we believe public safety. And so we believe that the shadow frontbenchers amendment is surplus to requirements because public safety is already because public safety is already dealt with in clause five of the bill.

With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I conclude my remarks, and Speaker, I conclude my remarks, and I trust that on the basis of the assurances that I have provided, honourable members will be content

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to withdraw their amendments. Thank you. Yeah. Zoe Franklin is it your pleasure that new clause to be pleasure that new clause to be withdrawn? Stand up.

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I. Rule on new clothes. 26 has been selected for separate decision. I called Doctor Danny Chambers to move new clause 26, formerly.

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new clause 26, formerly. Deputy Speaker.

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Clerk. Clerk. Click. Yes. service. The question is that new clause

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The question is that new clause 26 be read a second time of may that opinion say I. Of the country? No.
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None Portrait Division: Mental Health Bill (Lords), Report, New Clause 26
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opinion say I. Of the country? No. Doctor Doctor Julian Doctor Julian Lewis. Doctor Julian Lewis. Are Doctor Julian Lewis. Are you Doctor Julian Lewis. Are you going to walk swiftly or leisurely? Swiftly. The question is, as on the Order Paper has made that clear and say I, I of the country. No, no. Tell us what the eyes are. Tom Morrison and Zoe Franklin a tellers for the noes the Taiwo Owatemi and First, First, the First, the first. British.

British. Order. British. Order. Order! British. Order. Order! The British. Order. Order! The eyes British. Order. Order! The eyes to

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327. Was.

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Was. The ice, the right 78 the Noes to the left 327. The noes have it. The the left 327. The noes have it. The the left 327. The noes have it. The nose. Savage. Unlock. And. Before I nose. Savage. Unlock. And. Before I ask for the next decision, just to remind colleagues in the chamber, remind colleagues in the chamber, once the doors are locked, members should not be forcing themselves through the doors through either of through the doors through either of the lobby.

Or the order. Under the order of the House of the 19th, the order of the House of the 19th, the mayor must now put the questions necessary to bring proceedings on consideration to a conclusion. consideration to a conclusion. Amendment 40 has been selected for separate decision. I call the Shadow Minister to move amendment formally. Minister to move amendment formally. Doctor Luke Evans to move. The question is that amendment for all to be made? Its main opinion say.
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