Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent Question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the violent disorder that took place last night in Belfast

Thank you. days in Belfast. Thank you. Question one to ask the.

12:42

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Minister. But of course, Mr. Speaker, I'm grateful for the opportunity to respond to this question, which I am answering on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who this morning met with the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland to receive an update on the situation there. Let me start by saying that my thoughts, as I'm sure the thoughts of the whole House remain with the victim of the horrifying knife attack in north Belfast earlier this week and with his family, the House will be aware that a man has been charged in relation to that incident and I can confirm that he is a 30 year old Sudanese national who received refugee status in 2023 and was granted five years leave to remain.

Now we must now allow justice to take its course. The attack on Monday evening has understandably caused anger and profound concern. However, there is a line between concern and disorder and we must never allow it to be crossed. So let me be absolutely clear, Mr. Speaker. There is no excuse for the disgraceful scenes of violence and disorder that occurred in Northern Ireland last night. Houses and vehicles were set on fire, placing lives at risk, terrifying, law abiding citizens and forcing residents to flee their homes.

Reports that ethnic minorities were targeted are sickening. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to the police and the other emergency services for their work last night. Faced with an extraordinarily challenging situation, they responded with great courage and they are owed our thanks. Our message to those responsible for last night's disorder is altogether different to them. We say this you will be caught and you will face the consequences of your actions. As of this morning, there had been three arrests, but more will surely follow.

To those considering joining further disorder, my message is clear. Do not do it. You will be held accountable for your actions. You will feel the full face of the law. Policing is, as members are aware, a devolved matter. But the Home Office is of course monitoring the situation very closely, and we are working with operational partners to understand and act on any implications for public order across the United Kingdom. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I recognise that tensions are running high at times like this.

There is even more onus on us all as the custodians of our democracy, to respond with unity, to choose our words and actions with care, and to uphold the first duty of the state, maintaining order on the streets and keeping the public safe. Because the shameful scenes that we saw last night are not who we are, and they never will be.

12:46

Claire Hanna MP (Belfast South and Mid Down, Social Democratic & Labour Party)

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Claire Hanna thank you, Mr. Speaker. It has been a shocking two Speaker. It has been a shocking two days in Northern Ireland. The horrific knife attack in north Belfast has left a man fighting for Belfast has left a man fighting for his life, and an entire community distressed by what they've seen. Justice must, of course, take its course and deliver for that victim whose family have asked for calm. But last night brought further outrage. Children in my constituency and others lifted out of their beds as their homes burned.

Masked men roamed the streets, going door to door, menacing and setting fire to cars and buses and homes, terrorising people on the basis of the colour of their skin or the sound of their voice. People from Sudan, people from India, people from Ukraine and people from Belfast. And today businesses are shuttered and medical appointments are cancelled. Schools are being closed for fear of getting young people home. So many people are frightened to walk the streets and frightened to be in their own homes.

Tonight. And for all the online agitators who stoke this stuff up when they move on to their next target, we'll be the ones left to pick up the pieces. People are, of course, entitled to their views on immigration. And of course, government policy isn't perfect. But this hasn't been a debate or a conversation. There haven't been proposals. There haven't been honesty about the trade offs. There has been mob justice and some of the same old, same old proposals for a hardened border on the island of Ireland.

Political leaders have a duty to lead, not to lean into people's worst fears and anxieties. That video of the awful crime in north Belfast was unusual in its brutality, but the cycle of deflection and disorder has not been unusual. We have seen this movie too many times before in Belfast. We know all about blaming an entire community for the actions of others. We know all about scapegoating, we know all about tit for tat violence, and we know all about street justice.

Violence creates division. It's affecting our economy, and it's undermining the vast, vast majority of people in Northern Ireland who want to work together to build a better future. What support will the government provide to those who have been harmed by this awful violence? Can they ensure swift justice for all of the perpetrators of the last few days? And what will they do to bring to heel the online platforms who drive this madness?

12:48

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Yes, Minister. hon. Lady is described with great clarity the impact of the scenes that we've seen in Northern Ireland over the past number of hours. And over the past number of hours. And let me be absolutely clear, the scenes of disorder we witnessed in parts of Northern Ireland last night are not only damaging communities, but they are quite literally putting lives at risk. Like her, I utterly condemn the attacks on property and vehicles and the other related violence that we've seen.

There is no justification at all for this type of thuggery, and there is no place for it in Northern Ireland or anywhere else for that matter. Now, I know that she will agree that it is now vital that the Police Service of Northern Ireland are given the time, the space and the full support that they need to continue with their investigation. The rule of law must and will prevail and justice must and will be served. Violence is never a justified response and this disorder only causes pain and suffering for those living in the area.

As the hon. Lady has very eloquently described. Now, those involved do need to take a step back and consider the consequences of their actions, and I would strongly urge anyone who has information, no matter how small it might seem, to come forward and to contact the PSNI urgently in order to assist them with their inquiries. The hon. Member specifically asked about what support is being offered. She will know and understand that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is in Belfast today, and I know that he will be working with colleagues over there to make sure that they have the support and the resources that they need to deal with this very troubling situation.

12:50

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

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Chris Philp shadow home secretary. >> Monday night's attack was disgusting and barbaric. The victim suffered serious injuries to his neck and lost an eye. The thoughts of the whole house, I'm sure, are with him. I thank the police and emergency services for responding and pay tribute to members of the public who so bravely intervened. I commend the police for confirming the suspect's identity swiftly, because full transparency in these cases is vital. Can the Minister confirm PSNI will have all the resources needed to deal with these issues? We have all seen the footage of the appalling attack featuring a Sudanese illegal immigrant.

But let me be clear violence of any kind in protest is never justified. Innocent people should never be targeted and nobody should ever set fire to houses or cars. Speaking as a father, no one should ever feel unsafe in their homes. The police, I hope, will bring the perpetrators swiftly to justice. I do understand, though, why people are angry. The suspect came into the UK illegally. He should never have been here in the first place. Mainstream politicians must now understand how angry the public are about mass illegal immigration.

If mainstream politics does not stop this, the public will turn elsewhere. Since the election, 73,000 people have entered the country illegally via small boat, mostly young men. Many have committed serious crimes. I recently met the mother of Rhiannon White, a young woman brutally murdered by a Sudanese small boat migrant. There have been multiple rapes and sexual assaults, with victims as young as just 13. I have come over time to realise there is ultimately only one way to end illegal immigration by leaving the ECH so we can deport all illegal migrants on arrival, then illegal migration will stop and these appalling crimes with it.

12:52

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Minister. Secretary for the points that he have raised, and particularly for the clarity she made. The point about violence never being justified. He's absolutely right, and I hope that we can speak with a strong sense of unity about that. He specifically asked about ensuring that PSNI have the resources that they need to do the difficult work that they're being asked to do at this particular moment. I know that he understands, of course, policing is devolved, but the Secretary of State, as I said a moment ago, is in Northern Ireland this morning to work out what more we can do to provide support and to make sure that PSNI have the resources that they need.

He spoke about the anger that people feel, and that is absolutely understood. I'm sure all honourable and right hon. Members will have seen the footage that is circulating online and whilst clearly have to be incredibly careful not to get in the way of a live investigation, it is understandable why people will feel extremely angry at what they've seen. But it is very important that that anger does not tip over into criminality to the kind of thuggish behaviour that we've seen.

Now, he rightly raised concerns about the importance of making sure that this government, as with any government, has the right framework in place to deport those foreign national offenders who come here and commit criminality. I mean, I think he is aware of the figures. There have been 67,000 deportations and removals under this government, which marks a significant increase. I hope he and the House recognises the seriousness and the urgency with which we take these matters. They need to be dealt with calmly and effectively, but this government will do everything that we can, everything in our powers and if there are further powers required, we will make sure that we have them to deport and remove those people who raise a threat to the public.

12:54

Tonia Antoniazzi MP (Gower, Labour)

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Told you on the outset of. >> Mr. Speaker, and I'd like to congratulate my friend, the hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down on securing her Urgent Down on securing her Urgent Question and I also would like to pay tribute to the Chief Constable and the PSNI and the emergency services for their work, and their bravery continues to be unstinted. Does the Minister agree that the events we witnessed last night demonstrate the importance of political leaders? Speaking with one voice in condemning violence, rejecting extremism and supporting those working to build a shared and prosperous future for all communities and the people in Northern Ireland.

12:54

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> Mr. Speaker. I'm very grateful to her, not least because I know that she has a very long standing interest in Northern Ireland. She's absolutely right to highlight the bravery of the police. I've spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland over the years and have something of a sense of the importance of the work that they do and the risk that they carried. And looking at the scenes that unfolded last night, it is impossible not to conclude that the police did an incredibly good job under very difficult circumstances, and I absolutely pay tribute to them and their service and, of course, their families who will have been at home sick to death with worry at the kind of risk and threat that their loved ones were having to deal with.

She's right to raise the importance of responsibility as political leaders, as members of this House and further afield. We should all understand that words have consequences. And at moments like this, whilst I understand the temptation for some to score cheap political points, I think what the public expect is all of us to rise above that and think about how we can stand together and address these problems that we undoubtedly face.

12:56

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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Paul Kohler the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. spokesperson. >> Mr. speaker, my thoughts as the thoughts of the whole House are with Stephen Ogilvy, who suffered truly horrific injuries on Monday night and with the residents of Belfast forced to flee by rioters who do not speak for any legitimate community grievance. The knife attack was repugnant, but so too were the scenes that followed. This is the second consecutive summer of racially motivated disorder in Northern Ireland, which the PSNI has faced while understaffed and underfunded.

Now, the Minister rightly says the PSNI should be given time and space, but will he confirm what additional financial support the government will provide the PSNI because they need it? Whilst the alleged attacker had to leave to remain, concerns about irregular migration across the Northern Ireland border are being exploited by right wing extremists to foment hatred and division. Given the importance of accurate information, can the Minister also confirm whether the government will begin collecting data on such crossings as officials were unable to provide it? When I recently raised the issue as a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

12:57

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well. >> Well. >> I'm grateful to him for the sensible way in which he's brought his points forward. He's right to raise points with regard to the resourcing of PSNI. The government absolutely recognises the financial pressures that PSNI faces. As he will understand, policing is largely a devolved matter in Northern Ireland. But in recognition of the security situation in Northern Ireland, the government is providing PSNI with 37.8 million in additional security funding for each financial year until 2829.

And as I've said, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is there with the Chief Constable, John Boucher, this morning, and I'm certain that they will be having conversations about whether there is more that we can do to provide support. He also, I think, made some entirely reasonable points, including around transparency, and I agree with the points that he's making. It's important always that there is transparency in this case and in all cases, but I know that he will understand that I am very limited in terms of what more I can say investigation.

12:58

Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)

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And I'm joking. >> And I'm joking. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. >> I thank my. >> Friend from South Belfast for her question and to the Minister her question and to the Minister for his answers. And, of course, I think about the victim of the grotesque knife attack earlier this week. Now, Mr Speaker Northern Ireland is a wonderful place with wonderful people, and the scenes on the streets of Belfast that we saw were utterly disgraceful and do not reflect the Northern Ireland that I know that I love and that many of my family live in.

I am particularly concerned about the young people who have had to bear witness to the violence and disorder, as generations of young people in Northern Ireland have to. So can I ask the Minister what support will be given to the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that the young people of Northern Ireland are protected, supported and shielded from the disgraceful impacts of the criminality we saw in Belfast last night.

12:59

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to him. I think he makes an important wider point, which is important wider point, which is those of us in this House who don't represent constituencies in Northern Ireland, many of us will have a long standing affection and knowledge of the place, and I first went there in 1998 and have been a regular visitor ever since. I think it is an extraordinary part of the United Kingdom. It is a place that has been on something of a journey over the years.

And when I was in Northern Ireland just recently, I was incredibly impressed with that journey and the progress that has been made in recent times. And I think we have a shared endeavour across government and across this House to ensure that that journey continues in a positive direction. Key to that is the point that he made about young people in Northern Ireland, and we have an absolute shared responsibility to them to make sure that they can enjoy the brightest possible future. And I know that that will be an absolute priority for the Secretary of State and for other colleagues right across government.

13:00

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, Dame Karen Bradley. And can I join others in paying tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who have once again acted without fear or favour and walked into bravely into some of the most dangerous situations? But following on from the previous question about young people, I was struck by just how many young people were involved in the disorder yesterday, incited both by what they've seen on social media, but also by those gangmasters who have groomed those young people into committing violence day in, day out across Northern Ireland.

So can I ask the Minister if the Home Office would look into a review of the treatment of young people in Northern Ireland, and the way that so many of them have been groomed? In effect, it's modern slavery?

13:00

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm very >> Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm very grateful to the right hon. Lady who I think makes a really important point. And yes, I absolutely give her the commitment that working her the commitment that working with colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office, we will do that. Like her, I was struck with the presence of young people taking part in this criminality in Northern Ireland. We have seen that before in the bad old days of the troubles, and we must never go back to that.

I think there are some specific points that we're looking at around the extent to which any of this criminality and disorder has been directed by paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, but not yet in a position to say more about that. She she may well be aware that the UK government provides 50% of funding for a programme that specifically designed to tackle paramilitary activity and organised crime. Currently. That's £8 million of investment that goes into that. But I absolutely accept and agree with her key point that we've got to make sure that young people in Northern Ireland are diverted from paths of criminality, and that is a matter that I will take up with colleagues in the Home Office and also with the Secretary of State.

13:01

Jo White MP (Bassetlaw, Labour)

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Jo White. thank the hon. Member for her question? We have people in this House and beyond, including House and beyond, including currently from from Moscow, whipping up hate and disorder in our country. And what happened last night in Northern Ireland is a sickening example of that. Children nearly died, Mr. speaker, all of us in this House agree that we must secure our borders. Would the Minister agree with my proposal that the sight of people arriving here by boat or crossing from Ireland can be ended by processing asylum claims at the nearest point of safety, thousands of miles away, and thus bringing the.

Bringing an end to the trade of people smuggling.

13:02

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, well, in terms of the hon. Lady's first point, she's right in the sense that there will right in the sense that there will very concerning always be malign actors seeking to whip up community tensions through the use of mis and disinformation. And we are acutely alive to that. And we will work with partners and law enforcement to make sure that we are on top of all of that. In terms of her second point, I'm joined on the front bench by my ministerial colleague from the Home Office, and I know that he will have listened carefully to what she has had to say, but I'm sure she understands the determination that exists within the department and right across government to tackle the small boat crossings.

That is something that we are working at pace to address.

13:03

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Sammy Wilson thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> And the minister's right that those who were engaged in the violence last night should face the violence last night should face the full weight of the law because legally, morally, morally and politically they were wrong. However, if the law is going to apply to those who protested, it should also be applied to those who have broken into our country illegally, have broken our immigration laws, and are then become the source of many of the problems which we face.

But instead they're taken by the hand. They have state resources spent on them. They have got accommodation made available to them, and then they're given the right to stay here, even though they've come in illegally. And if this a this issue is to be addressed, then the government must change its attitude. Those who come into our country illegally should be told you will never get asylum and the Irish Government should be spoken to as well. So the Irish Republic does not become the conduit for illegal immigration.

The route which was used by the person who has now been accused of this crime.

13:04

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well. >> Well. >> Mr. Speaker, of course the law should always be applied without should always be applied without fear or favour. And whilst acknowledging the points that he has made, I hope that he understands the determination of this government to address the issues that he has raised. The government has been crystal clear about our commitment to reduce to zero the number of hotels that are being used to accommodate asylum seekers. There is a commitment to do that process in a different way, but through the use of larger sites and also you will have heard the remarks I made earlier about the increase in the the removal of foreign national offenders.

So this is a priority for this government. This is a priority for the Home Secretary, and we are working at pace to address the issues that. The hon. Member raises.

13:05

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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A question. >> A question. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The attack on Monday night in Belfast was horrific and the scenes last was horrific and the scenes last night terrifying. It is understandable that people are seeking answers and that yet again, another horrific crime is facing public scrutiny and political debate. One of the challenges is that right now, people are finding those answers online. And in that toxic world of social media now, we can either feed that tension it is creating, or we can dispel it by standing together against those who wish to target entire communities and being committed to replacing the fictions with fact.

I know the Home Secretary and the Minister have been looking at this issue. What more can we do to help people have access to trusted sources of information when it comes to difficult issues like this, so that we can challenge those people who spread hatred, leading from this place and delivering to those communities affected the information they need to be able to help heal themselves and deal with the trauma of what they've seen.

13:06

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I think the hon. Member raises a very important point. I think there will be agreement and recognition that activity online recognition that activity online can provide extraordinary opportunities and benefits, but clearly it can also provide a toxic environment which drives the kind of criminality that we've seen in recent times. I hope that she will understand that the government is working at pace across government, through the Defending Democracy Task Force and working with colleagues in DSIT, DCMS and right across law enforcement and with operational partners to make sure that activity online is is monitored in a way that will best enable us to reduce and eliminate the kind of activity that she refers to.

She will understand that that is not an easy thing to do, and we are constantly looking for greater responsibilities to be exercised by the social media companies and by the tech companies. But I give her an assurance of the importance that we attach to these matters. I've had meetings with ministerial colleagues to look at what more we can do, so I assure her that we're looking carefully at what more we can do.

13:07

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Sir Julian. >> The Security Minister, share my concern that irrespective of the personal motivation of this perpetrator, the circumstances by which he came into this country sends a signal to those ideological movements abroad that wish us harm, that there is a very easy back door by which they can infiltrate this country. And if an operation of that sort is mounted in the future, what sort of violent response will there be to a spectacular terrorist attack that could and should have been presented, prevented by secure borders?

13:08

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well. >> Well. >> The right hon. Gentleman, as he always does, has raised a very thoughtful series of questions, and thoughtful series of questions, and whilst I know that he will understand, I'm not going to get into the detail of the potential motivations of the alleged offender in these particular circumstances. I think the general challenge that he raises is the right one. It's the job of this government, of any government, to ensure that the United Kingdom is the hardest possible target for our adversaries and for those who would do us harm.

Now, from his previous service on the Is, he knows a lot about the nature and the range of threats that. As a country, we face. I hope that he also knows that this government, like the last government, does everything it possibly can to make sure that where there are particular points of vulnerability, we are bearing down on those and that we have the right capabilities, the right resources in place to ensure that we keep the public safe. There is no more important duty of any government than being able to do that.

And that is what myself as security Minister, working with my colleagues across government, spend each hour of every day making sure that we do Jen Craft.

13:09

Rachel Hopkins MP (Luton South and South Bedfordshire, Labour)

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Mr. speaker. >> Horrific. >> And the violence in response has been appalling, and many of my been appalling, and many of my constituents are deeply concerned at seeing what looks like a racially motivated attacks on families. They are feeling more scared in my community. So can I seek reassurances from the Minister that we will continue to stand together to reject extremism and violence, and support those who work together to continue to maintain a safe, tolerant and united community both in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom.

13:10

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well. Lady is absolutely right to make the points that she does in the way that she does. It's at moments like that she does. It's at moments like this where we are collectively tested, and the test is whether we are prepared to stand together are prepared to stand together against the kind of horrific violence that we've seen, both in terms of the the initial attack and the response to it, and whether we are prepared to stand together and reject extremism that isn't about seeking to in any way minimise the horror of the scenes that we've seen.

But the job of government is to provide a grown up, balanced response that seeks to bring communities together, not drive them apart. And that will always be the response of this government.

13:10

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> To you. >> The Minister said to criminals. Who are criminals. >> Minister not thugs. Do not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister not thugs. Do not. Do it with respect. That won't cut it. It suggests that the government is simply. A passive, pearl clutching observer rather than an active participant in this. Whilst I accept that operational matters are a matter for the PSNI and not for the Minister, will he say what the government is doing to try to fix the fundamentals that underpin this dreadful situation in Belfast?

13:11

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well. amount of respect for the right hon. Gentleman, but I think his characterisation of the words that I used in my opening remarks is unfair. Not least because I was seeking to provide a degree of seeking to provide a degree of clarity to those in Northern Ireland who might find themselves swept along by some of the violence that we've seen in recent times. I think it is entirely reasonable that as a government Minister, there is a clarity about the message that I send to those people, which is they shouldn't do it.

And if they do decide that they want to do it, then they have to be prepared to face the full consequences of their criminality. Now, I think with great respect to him, I think that is not an unreasonable point to make. His second point was a kind of wider systemic point. I know that he will understand that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is an extraordinarily seasoned political operator who dedicates his service in this House to serving the people of Northern Ireland as the Secretary of State.

And I know that hon. Members right across the House will understand how seriously he takes these matters. But the hon. Gentleman is also right to to infer that this is a shared endeavour across government, and that is why we will make sure that we will look carefully at what has happened in Northern Ireland and ensure that our collective response is proportionate. much.

13:12

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker, and I commend the >> Mr. Speaker, and I commend the hon. Member for Selby Belfast South and Mid Down for her words in this and Mid Down for her words in this place. My constituents in Birmingham Northfield will have been horrified by last night's scenes in Belfast, just as they will have been by the attacks on police in Southampton. Both followed horrifying individual incidents which were subsequently exploited for extremist political ends, including online, as she said. The only difference between shouting something through a megaphone and posting it on social media is the latter might reach millions.

So what consequences will be faced by those who do meet the threshold for encouraging acts of criminality, including online?

13:13

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm grateful to him, and I think he's also right to raise concerns about the disturbances and the disorder that we saw in Southampton recently. The scenes both in Southampton and Belfast and of course, we've seen them in other parts of the United Kingdom, are utterly abhorrent. It is extremely kind of ridiculous for those people who participate in that kind of criminality, to sometimes describe themselves as being patriots. They're not patriots. They don't believe in our country. They want to undermine our country.

The real patriots are those people in the police force dealing with this disorder, dealing with this criminality. And to come to his second point, I can absolutely give him an assurance that those who do decide that they want to engage in this violent criminal disorder will face the full weight of the law.

13:14

Rt Hon Gavin Robinson MP (Belfast East, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Gavin Robinson. condemnation. And to the Member for Belfast South and Mid Down for securing another opportunity to raise these important issues. The condemnation has been strong and the condemnation has been appropriate from the Minister. He is also right to highlight that you cannot protect British values whilst tarnishing them and trampling upon them, and destroying the rule of law and intimidating members of our community and putting them out of their homes and destroying their lives. That's not British and that's not what we need in our country.

But as security Minister, he has a number of responsibilities, and I would urge him to have a look at the swift processes that were deployed three years ago on asylum applications. I understand that an individual in question was most likely not even interviewed as part of that asylum process, given the constrained timescales within it, that individuals just give a name and a date of birth, and there's no database upon which to confirm that the name and the date of birth that they gave is true.

And without making any comment on the individual in question on Monday, that is a huge loophole in the security of our nation. There is a need to engage with the government of the Republic of Ireland and ensure that we have uniformity and uniformity of protection of our borders, and I would ask him to commit to do so today.

13:15

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, and I thought he made excellent points at the beginning of his remarks with regard to the of his remarks with regard to the activities we've seen and the not being British, I completely agree with his analysis of the situation, and I hope that he acknowledges my very long standing interest and affection for his part of the United Kingdom, and lots of right, honourable and hon. Members feel a huge sense of determination to support him and his colleagues and the important work that they are doing.

He raised a number of other points, and I know that he will understand that. I'm joined by my ministerial colleague, who is listening very carefully to the point that he has made. Of course, when a situation such as the one we've seen in recent days occurs, the department will want to look very carefully at the circumstances of that particular case. In general terms, some of the metrics relating to some of the points that he has made are absolutely heading in the right direction, not least in terms of initial decisions on asylum being up by 71%, and the government's absolute determination to make sure that we're processing claims much more quickly and much more effectively than was the case previously.

But I think the right hon. Gentleman makes a whole series of points. We will consider them further. And, of course, should he wish to discuss them, I'd be very happy to do so.

13:17

Liam Conlon MP (Beckenham and Penge, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I echo the remarks in the statement from the Minister and also my from the Minister and also my friend the Member for Belfast South and Mid Down, who spoke with such so well and with such clarity. This was a horrific attack, and I'd like to join others in extending my sympathies with the victim. I'd also like to commend the bravery of Matt McKiernan and those who ran towards danger to disarm the attacker and the PSNI and emergency services for their swift response.

But can I also say it was disappointing, but not surprising to see the usual suspects using this as an opportunity to divide and point score and help to whip up violence and disorder online, which then plays out on the streets of Belfast. Will he join me in condemning those who have done so? And does he agree that this demonstrates the need for urgent action against the online platforms that facilitate and spread this hate?

13:18

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm very grateful to him, not least because I know that he also has a very long standing also has a very long standing affection for Northern Ireland, and I completely join with him in praising the bravery of all of those involved. A couple of nights ago, in terms of the the actions that we saw, I think he's also right to raise very significant concerns, and it links to the point that I made earlier on about words having consequences. Whilst there will be, as he describes them, the usual suspects coming forward to try and derive some kind of political advantage from circumstances such as this, I genuinely believe that the majority of the public expect us to act in a sensible, consensual way to address the problems about which people are rightly angry.

But to do that in a way that brings people together, not drive them apart.

13:18

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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Pete Wishart Mr. >> Pete Wishart Mr. >> Speaker, in my 25 years as a member of Parliament, I never thought I would ever see a situation where masked men would go door to door seeking to drive families from ethnic minorities out of their home. What happened on Monday was truly barbaric, but there is nothing in the world that would ever justify that type of behaviour. Now I and others in this House have been warning about the rise of the far right and those pernicious people who would influence this type of behaviour on our streets.

Will he now acknowledge that we have a new emerging problem with elements of the far right? We will acknowledge that. And will he therefore then commit to ensure that we tackle it effectively?

13:19

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Mr. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, I agree with the hon. Member. The scenes that he described were scenes that he described were utterly abhorrent and were not the scenes that any right minded person would ever want to see anywhere in Belfast or the United Kingdom or anywhere. And I hope that there is a shared sense of agreement about that. In terms of his second point, of course, I acknowledge as the security Minister that in order to keep our country safe, we have to deal with a range of different threats that sit across the spectrum.

And of course, that includes extreme right wing activity as it includes a range of other specific threats. In truth, my approach is always to be ideologically, ideologically agnostic in the sense that it doesn't make a difference to me what the particular motivation or the ideal ideology of those who would do us harm is. I will make sure that we've got the defences to stand against those threats, regardless of where they come from. I think Houston.

13:20

Alex Easton MP (North Down, Independent)

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Thank you. want to take the opportunity to condemn the appalling assault on the gentleman on Monday night and to praise the members of the public, the PSNI and emergency services for stepping in and trying to help that individual. I would also like to put on the record that I condemn the violence that took place last night. There is no place for violence in our society, no matter what the issue. It is just wrong. However, Minister, I do have some issues.

We've raised issues about police resources for the PSNI. It's not a matter that the PSNI might need resources. They urgently need help and support. We are over a thousand police officers down in Northern Ireland, and I would urge you to send support as quickly as possible. We also have Minister the problem of an open border, and I know the Member for South Belfast has mentioned that that is a back door for illegal immigration into Northern Ireland. Would the Minister be able to provide us with figures of how many people are using that back door, and what plans the government are going to do to close that? And finally, many decent, law abiding people have genuine concerns about illegal immigration, and they feel that this government and politicians are letting them down.

What can the Minister do and government do to try and assure those people that their genuine concerns are being taken seriously and are going to be resolved? Thank you.

13:22

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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I'm grateful to him for his condemnation of the violence and condemnation of the violence and the words that he said in praise of those who've acted with great courage. I understand the points that he makes about PSNI resources. These are matters that I have twice previously discussed with the Chief Constable in Northern Ireland, and I'm quite certain that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be having further conversations with the Chief Constable today and an ongoing and on an ongoing basis.

I do recognise the concerns that he has raised, and I know that the Secretary of State and colleagues across government will want to reflect on them further in light of recent events. I thought he also made an important point about the common travel area and the common travel area, as he will know, is without border controls and this has been the case for many years. So currently this is not data that can be collected. However, we do have immigration enforcement teams who conduct intelligence led raids, and we have a new data sharing agreement between the UK government, local authorities and PSNI to protect the CTA from abuse.

But we will look very carefully at the points that he has raised, and I know that there will be further colleagues with ministerial colleagues about them, Danny Kruger Mr. Speaker. Of course, rioting.

13:23

Danny Kruger MP (East Wiltshire, Reform UK)

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Is utterly wrong, and the scenes we saw in Belfast yesterday deserve we saw in Belfast yesterday deserve our total condemnation. But law abiding people across the country are rightly furious at the failure of the government to stop dangerous and violent men entering our country illegally. One reason is the pull factor of our asylum and welfare system. The other pull, the other factor is the is the open border that we have with the Republic. And I stood on that border last week, Mr.

Speaker, and of course, nobody wants to see physical infrastructure erected there. But what conversations is the Minister having with the Irish government to get them to do more to stop illegal migrants travelling north into the UK?

13:24

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I am grateful for the condemnation of the violent behaviour that we saw. I think it's behaviour that we saw. I think it's right that we all do that, of course, and don't allow any ambiguity in terms of the words that we use in that regard. He'll understand that I don't share the particular critique that he's offered of the government in recent times, not least because the number of foreign national offenders who've been deported is up by 36%. So that's more than 10,000 that have been deported since this government came to office.

He raised specific concerns about the common travel area. I can say that we work closely with the Irish government to protect the integrity and the security of the common travel area, whilst at the same time preserving the rights of British and Irish citizens. But where there is a requirement for us to do more, then of course we'll have to look at that.

13:25

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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John Milne thank you, Mr. >> John Milne thank you, Mr. Speaker. In January, I wrote to the Home Secretary because a whistleblower suggested that Border Force lacked sufficient personnel to cover night sailings from Belfast and Larne to my constituency, Dumfries and Galloway, where Cairnryan is the main port. We have heard today that much more focus is on what is clearly the unlocked back door to the United Kingdom between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. What can the government do to address this, and to prevent the North Channel between Scotland and Northern Ireland becoming a conduit for illegals and for other contraband?

13:25

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm grateful to him because I think he makes an important point. I met with important point. I met with officials this morning specifically to discuss the points that he has to discuss the points that he has raised. And of course, we will use all of the tools that we have our disposal to address. The points that he raises, including intelligence led operations. But we look very closely at these things and where there is a requirement so.

13:26

Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)

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Mike Martin thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to thank the hon. Speaker. I'd like to thank the hon. Lady from South Belfast for the question, and also for the Security Minister for the way in which he's responded so characteristically responded so characteristically serious and thoughtful. It strikes me that there are three lines of investigation here. One, of course, into the abhorrent Act on Monday night. And we have a suspect. Secondly, the disorder that we saw last night, and I heard the Minister say that we have three people arrested as suspects there, but there is a third strand around those who seek to incite violence.

Can the Minister confirm that that is a third strand of active investigation that we are seeking to find those people who incited that violence last week, last night, and continue to do so?

13:26

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I think the hon. Member >> Well, I think the hon. Member makes an important point. I agree with the characterisation that he has made. He's right to reference has made. He's right to reference the attack and the subsequent disorder, but he's also right to reference concerns about those who would seek to initiate initiate violent criminality under these particular circumstances. I give him an absolute assurance that these are matters that we will take incredibly seriously, as I am sure will.

The police Gregory Campbell.

13:27

Mr Gregory Campbell MP (East Londonderry, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Mr Speaker rightly, there's been >> Mr Speaker rightly, there's been unanimous condemnation of the violence last night in Belfast, as there was for the incident that occurred in north Belfast. The precipitated protests last night. But would he agree with me that two years ago, following the Southport attacks, there was similar violence

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to last night appeared in Northern Ireland. We all condemn that as well. I

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We all condemn that as well. I asked the Deputy First Minister to accompany me to our local hospital to reassure ethnic minority workers to reassure ethnic minority workers in that hospital that we didn't just condemn violence against them, but we stood shoulder to shoulder but we stood shoulder to shoulder with them in opposition to that violence. But we need more than words and standing shoulder to shoulder. We hope there will never be a repeat of last night's violence. But if the government don't deal with the fundamental underlying problem of the previous night, we will have more nights like that one.

13:28

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm grateful to him, not >> Well, I'm grateful to him, not least because it provides me with the opportunity to make the point that I know that he will agree with that I know that he will agree with that. Belfast is a truly great city. It is a place with incredible history and extraordinary character, and I believe it is a place of great potential and possibilities with a very, very bright future ahead of it. And that is why it is so tragic to see the kind of criminal disorder that all of us, I think, would have hoped, had been consigned to the past.

So I understand the passion with which the hon. Gentleman speaks, but I hope that he will also understand the commitment that exists from this government to deal with what he describes as being the kind of fundamental underlying problems he's he's right to raise those. Nobody is remotely blind to them. And we completely understand the anger. And that is why we are progressing from the Home Office and working with colleagues right across law enforcement and government to make sure that we are making progress with the areas that he references.

Mr. Robert.

13:29

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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Mr. speaker, all that last night's dreadful violence did was terrorise the innocent, self inflicted harm on their own communities and distract from the awfulness of the North Belfast attack, and indeed distract from the many peaceful protests that there were in my constituency and elsewhere. And on all these issues, the law must take its full course against all illegality wheresoever it came from. But the deadly impact of the continuing open border with the Republic of Ireland for illegal migrants still stands.

This government presides over a situation where it is illegal to bring into Northern Ireland a garden plant from Great Britain. But yet we have an open border from the Irish Republic, where gentlemen like this Sudanese man can come unhindered. An illegal immigrant into the United Kingdom. Does the Minister not see the problem?

13:30

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I certainly agree with the >> Well, I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman's framing of his question and also the point that he actually made about about peaceful actually made about about peaceful protest. I know he will understand that my remarks referred only to those engaging in criminal disorder. I've heard the points that he's made about what he describes as an open border. He will have heard the comments that I've made previously, including the point about the very close cooperation that takes place between the Irish Police, PSNI and other police services to ensure that there is the most joined up and effective response.

But I accept the challenge that he makes, and I accept that this is something that the government well, is and will need to continue to look at.

13:31

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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Jeremy Corbyn thank you, Mr. Speaker. The House owes a big debt of. Thanks to the Member for Belfast South and Mid Down for raising this question today. Last night, the scenes of racist violence on the streets of Belfast, gangs going door to door looking for foreigners, and the racist abuse being thrown at any minority ethnic person on the streets of Belfast last night were utterly disgusting, as were the attempts by people in Glasgow and Liverpool last night to emulate that and do exactly the same.

What message has he got for the far right racists that are encouraged by parties represented in this House, that they will not be allowed to assemble in the next few days and over the weekend to promote the same kind of racist language and violence against minorities within our society. None of this racist stuff builds a house, feeds a child, or educates anybody. Surely what we need to do is unite people together society.

13:32

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Hear, hear. >> Hear, hear. >> Well, I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I think he made his point very powerfully. he made his point very powerfully. My message is very simple. To those who would consider any kind of racist activity, or any further criminality or disorder. My message is very simple break the law and get ready to face the full consequences of the law.

13:32

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I first of all, thank Speaker. Can I first of all, thank the Minister for his thoughtful answers. I think are helpful for those who ask questions. I condemn totally the violence that took place in Belfast yesterday. I stood in this place, in this House and spoke on the right to peacefully protest and to have their government take account of their fears and their views. And as the MP for Strangford, not one stone was thrown up by the hundreds and hundreds of people who stood by the Cenotaph in Newtownards last night.

As women in Zimmer frames, young mothers with children and families stood in companionable silence, the PSNI have confirmed that no thuggery whatsoever took place. They did what they needed to do to have their voice heard. Now it's time for government Ministers. Time for government to do what they need to do and listen and act to the decent and reasonable people who are not thugs and who have valid fear. So will the Minister confirm that the views of these and those reasonable thousands throughout the province, who quietly asked for their voice to be heard, will not be ignored due to the actions of some terrible thugs.

13:33

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I completely agree >> Mr. speaker, I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I think he makes his points in the way that he does very powerfully and with huge does very powerfully and with huge experience of these matters. I completely agree with his central point, which is that we must not allow the violent criminality and disorder that we have seen to drown out the important, peaceful voices of those who entirely, understandably, have concerns and express anger about the situation that we have seen.

He's right to make that point, and I give him an absolute assurance of the seriousness with which we take it.

13:34

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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I'm calm. >> I'm calm. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I offer you a happy birthday? I offer you a happy birthday? I forgot to do that during Prime Minister's Question Time. Can I also. Can I also thank the hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down for a very balanced statement to this House? Of course, we recognise and commend the efforts of the individuals that intervened on Monday to help the victim and the emergency services, which no doubt were confronted with very challenging scenes last night.

My question is very simple. Will the Minister be looking at special courts to expedite matters, where we have rioters with harsh sentences so as to act as a deterrent? Well.

13:35

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker, I'm grateful to him for the point that he raises. I think he will understand that his question doesn't sit within my ministerial area of responsibility, but I know colleagues elsewhere in government will have heard it, and I'll make sure that he gets a response from them about it. Robin Swann.

13:35

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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Mr. speaker, the victim is actually a health service worker, a radiographer, and our health radiographer, and our health service across the United Kingdom, and especially in Northern Ireland, depends on many people working from many nationalities, many communities. So it was abhorrent to see some of those health service workers actually attacked last night by those contemplating and delivering this violence. Can I ask the Minister, what steps is he taking to ensure that all authorities in Northern Ireland have the full support of this government in any action that is needed, needed to be taken against those who are perpetrating the violence, but also those who are acting online to spread the hatred and the violence that we are now seeing.

My party leader spoke this morning with the father of the victim, who has made a direct appeal to those spreading disinformation online to stop, and that actually includes the disinformation that his son has died. So what steps can the government take to support the family and the father in their asks?

13:36

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. He's >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. He's absolutely right to raise concerns, which I think will be shared across the House about the attacks that took place on health service took place on health service workers, whom we owe a huge debt of gratitude for their incredible work. He's also right to raise concerns about activity taking place online. And as I said in an earlier response, that is something we take very seriously and work across government on. I think it's important for me to reiterate that both the Secretary of State and the Parliamentary Under Secretary from the Northern Ireland Office are both in Northern Ireland today.

I know that they will be talking to colleagues, and I know that they will be consulting widely across this place to make sure that the support that we provide is proportionate, and where there is more that we need to do to help, then. I know that the government's door will be open to that.

13:37

Mr Adnan Hussain MP (Blackburn, Independent)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. shock the nation. They were horrific in every sense. Honour bound to have left minority communities across the country terrified. We saw widespread, widespread scenes of violent disorder homes ablaze, and reports of people's cars being stopped and checked on the basis of race. The depraved, the depraved scenes of violence that triggered the eruptions last night were also absolutely horrific and understandably invoked anger. These are scenes more reminiscent of the darkest chapters of history than modern Britain.

We must be honest. Something is profoundly wrong. Why is it that isolated incidents are repeatedly followed by such extreme and widespread eruptions of violence? And what failures of policy and governance over the decades have brought us to this point where anger and vulnerability have become so dangerously heightened and so easily exploited?

13:38

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Totally sure. Listen very carefully to the points that the hon. Gentleman made, that there hon. Gentleman made, that there were a number of them. Let me reflect on them, and I'm very happy to discuss them with him further.

13:38

Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Carla Lockhart thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for your permission to speak. Having had violence in my constituency last violence in my constituency last night, I want to say clearly, violence is never the answer and is wrong, and those engaged in that should face the full force of the law, despite what champion tell us, there was always an alternative to violence. We do not want attacks on people, place homes or businesses we want. We don't want families feeling unsafe. Little children from different ethnic backgrounds feeling afraid or fearful even to go to school.

But for the many who are angry and who are scared because of uncontrolled immigration, because of the most barbaric act and footage that has been displayed of the incident just two nights ago, people want to see politics and democracy fill the space, so there is significant concern in Northern Ireland about open borders. Will he release the numbers who have crossed into the UK via the Republic of Ireland border? And will the Minister commit, even at a start, to start replicating what ROI do in checking people coming from the United Kingdom, from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland? People need to see this government take action.

13:39

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm grateful to her for her condemnation. And let me say to her that the government do absolutely that the government do absolutely understand the concerns and are working to address the underlying issues that underpin those concerns. I think it's important to make the point that on top of increased deportations and removals, we are also seeking to remove the pull factors that would bring people here in the first place. So illegal work arrests are up by 60%.

Hotel use is down by 63% since its peak, and asylum claims down by 12%. Much done, much more to do. But absolutely, we do understand the concerns.

13:40

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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Mr. Speaker, and I joined the. >> Member for. >> Belfast South and Mid Down for her. >> This UQ and. >> Her remarks. >> And.

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And. I also associate myself with the condemnation from across the House for the abhorrent attack on Monday for the abhorrent attack on Monday evening and the scenes that we witnessed yesterday. A pastor at the scene where multiple houses were on fire in north Belfast and people were being put out of houses because they're black, according to media reports, even a two month old baby had to be evacuated by police to safety last night, amidst mob violence and rioting in Belfast.

That is the reality of what this violence represents. Not legitimate protest but terrorising innocent families. This and and this is where far right rhetoric takes us to pogroms that force police to escort children from their homes. We know from history where this road leads to a path of destruction and division. So can the Minister tell this House what the government is doing to counter the spread of racism, and to ensure that one individual's actions are not used to stigmatise entire communities?

13:41

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Mr. Speaker, he's absolutely right to say that the scenes that we saw are appalling and unacceptable and are in no way legitimate protest. I hope that I was crystal clear in my opening remarks about what my message was to those who may be considering, or maybe those who've been involved in this kind of violent criminality and disorder. I was crystal clear about the fact that they shouldn't do that, and that anybody who considers doing it needs to be prepared to face the full weight of the law.

I am confident that the police are working at pace to address the scenes that we've seen in recent times. Arrests have already been made, and I have no doubt that we will see further arrests in the very near future. This kind of criminality and disorder is utterly unacceptable. Shockat Adam.

13:42

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> We all condemn the actions of Monday night, and we also look Monday night, and we also look ahead, look with concern at the subsequent rioters. But my concern is those that leave the land possible for such actions to happen, those that politicise, those that weaponise. Mr. speaker, when I was younger, in the 70s, if somebody was going to attack me for racial reasons, which did happen, you could spot them from a mile away.

Now, those, those those that instigate racial hatred wear smart suits, speak the King's English, occupy every radio wave and every television channel instigating hate. I would like to ask the Minister that we seem to have a repeated measures of this Southport the Liverpool fans who were run over the Huntingdon stabbing in the train. People are looking at crime through a lens of racialisation. But many people in this chamber have spoken today in unity. As we celebrate or we Mark sorry, commemorate ten years of Jo Cox speaking about what unites us rather than divides us.

So can I ask the Minister to maybe consider a cross member cross-party task force to tackle this issue, which is going to affect every single member of our community here?

13:44

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I'm very grateful to the hon. Member. I think he makes some very important points, makes some very important points, and I think he makes them in a very considered and constructive way. considered and constructive way. He's right to make the point that words have consequences, and where people stoke the fire, where people seek to incite violent criminality, they should take responsibility and they should be held responsible for their actions. I think that this has been a very constructive and reasonable debate that we've had in the House today, but I think it is, particularly for those online to think carefully about the words that they use and the messages deploy.

All of us who serve in public life have an absolute responsibility, I think, to do the right thing to ensure that people act within the law and to work to bring people together, not drive

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them apart. Right. That concludes questions

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Obviously, Obviously, we're Obviously, we're going Obviously, we're going to Obviously, we're going to come

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Obviously, we're going to come to the statement, but I have got concern. There are strong rumours that the government is going to produce its defence investment plan. produce its defence investment plan.

13:45

Speaker's statement

On Friday. That will be an utter disgrace and another kick in the face to the members of this House. I would say to Downing Street Government's responsibility of the ministerial code states major announcements should be made here. Once again, this may be speculation and I'm sure it will be corrected, but I will be appalled if it is done on a Friday when members have been waiting so long. This is all parties, including the government benches, who has great interest in the defence plan.

We all have jobs. We all have people who serve in the armed forces. So surely we must end this speculation and treat this House with respect that members were elected here to.

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Yeah. Once again, it seems to me we

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Once again, it seems to me we are becoming second class citizens with the government. I don't want with the government. I don't want that to be the case, and I hope that I'm going to be proved wrong.

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Right. Let us come to the urgent question. Secretary of State. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

13:46

Urgent Question: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the Defence Investment Plan

>> Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> To ask the Secretary of State for defence if he will make a statement on the Defence Investment Plan.

13:46

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Prime Minister set out today at Prime Minister's Questions and the Defence Secretary outlined just last week, we will publish the Defence Investment Plan ahead of the NATO summit in in just a few weeks time. The Prime Minister, Defence Secretary and all the defence team are determined to get the dip right to ensure we deliver the best equipment and technology into the hands of our frontline forces, investing in and growing the UK economy. We are determined to make the right choices for the country to ensure the UK is secure at home and strong abroad.

Even as we finalise the dip, we continue to back British jobs, British businesses and British innovation. Since July 2024, the government has now signed 1400 major contracts, with 94% of that going in terms of spend going to UK based firms. In just the past four weeks, we've announced a £150 million hybrid Navy package for the UK led mission in the Strait of Hormuz, £1 billion contract for new mobile artillery for the British Army rapidly procured new weapons for our typhoons already deployed to shoot down drones at low cost.

13 new contracts, up to 4 million each with small home-grown British businesses to foster growth and innovation to find the next billion pound UK defence, unicorn and armed Forces pay award of 3.6%, meaning most personnel have now received a cumulative pay award of 14.1% since this Labour government was formed. And let us not forget, it was the party opposite that left the defence programme overcommitted, underfunded and unsuited to the threats we now face. In their first year in government. They cut defence spending by £2 billion in their first five years of government, cut by £12 billion.

This Labour government is rearming and renewing our armed forces and ending the Tory hollowing out, spending over 11 billion more this year on defence than the last year of the conservative government. Our Defence Investment Plan, delivering our strategic defence review, will put that right, backed by our commitment to the largest sustained increase in defence spending since the Cold War, backed by the most ambitious programme of defence reform in 50 years. We will deliver for Britain, deliver for defence.

13:48

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful to Mr. Speaker for am grateful to Mr. Speaker for granting this urgent question. Before I begin, may I pay tribute to the three Royal Navy personnel to the three Royal Navy personnel who tragically died in a helicopter crash last week, and we offer our heartfelt condolences to the families from this side of the House. Now, after months of delay, Madam Deputy Speaker, there has been very considerable speculation that the Defence Investment Plan will finally be delivered this week.

Is that the case specifically? And to echo what Mr. Speaker just said, there has also been considerable speculation that the dip may be published on Friday. Madam Deputy Speaker, As Mr. Speaker said, this House is not sitting on Friday. Let us be clear with war on two fronts. This is not just another government publication, but given the context, a vital moment for our country and for this Parliament. So does the Minister understand that it would be totally unacceptable to all colleagues if the Defence Investment Plan was published on a

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day when the House is not sitting. Because you don't back your own plan? So can he explicitly confirm

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So can he explicitly confirm when he gets up that the Defence Investment plan will be published Investment plan will be published when the House is sitting? Madam Deputy Speaker, you need no reminding of the total shambles in reminding of the total shambles in this chamber. Last June, when Labour published their Strategic Defence Review, giving advance sight of the market sensitive sight of the market sensitive document to the defence industry from 8 a.m. that morning. While I, as shadow Defence Secretary, never got to see a copy before responding to it from this despatch box.

So can the Minister also give all colleagues on all sides an absolute assurance that whenever the dip is published, before the actual document itself is shared with any

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other external stakeholders, first sight will be reserved for members of this House. Hear, hear. Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker,

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Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, there is a reason the dip has been delayed so long, and that's because Labour still haven't worked out how to pay for it. But former Labour defence secretary George Robertson and their former Labour Prime and their former Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair, both know the answer. They should cut welfare to fund defence. So if the Minister and believes the welfare Budget should not be touched to fund defence, can he at least tell us if the Defence Investment Plan will set out a fully funded path to 3% of GDP on defence? And, crucially, has the Treasury actually signed off the Defence investment plan yet? Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, last week the Secretary of State said a defence that the Prime Minister was determined to publish the Defence Investment Plan by the NATO summit.

Which begs the following question which NATO summit and which Prime Minister?

13:51

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I join? The hon. Gentleman in passing on my personal condolences as a Devon MP. The helicopter crash in Devon hit my military city that I represent very hard, as someone that knows comes from a Royal Navy family and knows many people who fly similar helicopters, and I welcome the cross-party support for the families and the victims. He asked when the dip will be published, as the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary has said it will be published before the NATO summit in only a few weeks time.

The few weeks time peace will should have answered his final question, but I understand he wanted to get that for his social media clip, so perhaps in knowing the answer he would have already have it. He also would know that the SDR wasn't market sensitive. And so when he said that, that's not actually correct. But we we'll be very clear that we are investing more in defence. We're ending the hollowing out and underfunding that his government presided over. We're very clear it will be published before the NATO summit.

And I know he can keep chuntering, but I'm trying to answer his questions. He had an opportunity to ask them. Let me have a go at them as he chooses not to do that. Spending decisions are made by the Prime Minister. But spending decisions, he's still chuntering. It's not good. Spending decisions will be made by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor in the usual way as affecting any government department, including defence, and will publish the Defence Investment Plan before the NATO summit.

13:53

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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Select Committee chair. Deputy Speaker, and I associate my self with the comments of the Minister and the Shadow Defence Secretary, and my heartfelt Secretary, and my heartfelt condolences and sympathies with the families of our brave service personnel who have sadly perished. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Strategic Defence Review set the ambition, but the Defence Investment Plan is supposed to say what will actually be published, what will actually be funded, when and with what trade offs. So can the Minister confirm that when the Defence Investment Plan is is finally announced, that it will be in this chamber to enable proper parliamentary scrutiny, and that it will contain all the details that hon.

Members, the British taxpayers and industry, expect from a an investment plan rather than just a headline figure. Some headline commitments and a few aspirations. Very good.

13:54

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Very good. >> Can I thank my friend for the work that he does for defence and the work he does on the Defence Select Committee. He knows that the commitment that the Defence commitment that the Defence Secretary made from this despatch box to publish it before the NATO summit will be honoured when it comes to the details of the plan. We've committed to go beyond the equipment programmes that we inherited previously, so the equipment plans that were published by the last government only dealt with equipment.

And, as he will know, 47 of the 49 major defence programs we inherited were delayed and over Budget at the point of the general election. He will also know that a 30% or so of the equipment plan was unfunded, and many of them unsuitable for the threats that we are facing. And so that's why the defence investment plan will go beyond just the equipment and deal with people, estates and infrastructure as well, as well as deal with the reform. I'm absolutely certain that he will have heard the commitments given by the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary, and I look forward to the debates in this House on the published.

13:55

Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Doctor Al Pinkerton. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I associate myself and my colleagues with the condolences that have been paid to the crew who that have been paid to the crew who died in the tragic helicopter crash last week? The Defence Investment Plan is still not published after nine months. Industry waits for certainty, our allies for clarity and our armed forces for the investment they were promised at a time of acute threat. Defence cannot be switched on overnight.

You cannot rebuild industrial capacity, train personnel, modernise equipment or restore deterrence through vague promises about working at pace. SMEs are clear. Investment decisions are delayed, expansion is on hold. Our contracts are being lost. Overseas. British firms stand ready to grow and hire, but this delays freezing procurement, paralysing the supply chain and creating doubt about Britain's commitment to rearmament. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether he has assessed the economic damage caused to British businesses by the delayed Defence Investment Plan, and given the deadlock that appears to exist between the Treasury and the MoD, will he now seriously consider our proposal to issue £20 billion of defence bonds?

13:56

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his questions and also for the condolences on behalf of his party? condolences on behalf of his party? It's polite of him to promote me in his question, but I'll make sure the Secretary has heard what he has to say. It's really important that we set out that we haven't waited for the Defence Investment Plan to deliver the new capabilities, the new contracts and the new investment. And so that's why, for instance, he mentioned small businesses. Earlier this year, we stood up the Defence Office of Small Business Growth to create a single doorway for small businesses to be able to access defence.

We've supported more small businesses and we've increased the target for direct spend from the Ministry of Defence to increase by 50% an extra £2.5 billion of direct spend going into small businesses. We continue to support SMEs. So the 1400 major contracts that I mentioned in my response to the initial question, not only support companies like BA systems, Babcock Talley's, the very large defence primes, they also support the entire supply chain. With many of those contracts going to small businesses because we want to see the innovation, the job creation, the energy and dynamism of small businesses have a bigger role in defence.

And that is especially true if you look at the areas like autonomy, where many of the companies that we are indeed buying capabilities of today are small businesses have huge growth potential. And he will see when the Defence Investment Plan is published, that we're backing those innovative companies and those SMEs.

13:57

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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Luke Akehurst thank you, Madam >> Luke Akehurst thank you, Madam Speaker. Would my hon. Friend agree that the decision that was taken early in this Parliament to halve overseas, the overseas aid aid Budget and put that into defence, shows that this Labour Government is prepared to take the tough political decisions needed to fund rearming this country. Unlike the party opposite, who had 14 years to invest in the armed forces and instead left them and their equipment in the parlous state that we found in 2024.

13:58

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank my friend for his question? He's absolutely right, question? He's absolutely right, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the difficult decision made to move point 2% of NI being spent on international aid to defence spending was an important decision that showed that in this new era of hard power, we need to back it with increased spending of defence, increased capabilities. That's precisely the decision that was taken in the past. We are increasing defence funding, very proud compared to the party opposite that cut defence spending in their first Budget.

We increased defence spending in the first Labour Budget year.

13:58

Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's really pretty extraordinary to see the partisan way with which the see the partisan way with which the Minister has approached every single question here. He has been completely incapable of giving this House or indeed, Mr. Speaker, the assurance that has been asked for multiple on multiple occasions, which can only lead us to assume that he is hiding the untruth that he wishes he did not have to say, which is that he will not be bringing the defence investment plan to this House.

Now, that's pretty extraordinary. It's not just one year, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's 14 years because this government claims that we had 14 years in which we made errors, and they may be right on many of them. In fact, I have criticised them myself. They had 14 years to plan and have now had two years in government. And we are nowhere and we are still seeing defence capability fall. In fact, NATO puts us at number 31 out of 32 of those who have failed to meet their capability targets.

And the last one is Iceland. And it doesn't even have a military.

13:59

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, I have a lot of time for >> Well, I have a lot of time for the right hon. Gentleman, and I enjoy listening to his clips on social media, which I'm sure this social media, which I'm sure this will appear very shortly as well. I have to say to him politely, I have to say to him politely, I have to

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say to him. I don't need such. Loud chuntering from. The front benches.

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The front benches. Minister I have to say to him politely that when we have military families living in housing with families living in housing with black mould in bedrooms, broken boilers and leaky roofs, the investment that we are making in investment that we are making in defence housing is absolutely vital. So when he says that there may have been errors, there certainly were. But defence matters to me. As someone that comes from a military family who represents a military constituency, we will be publishing the Defence Investment Plan shortly.

What it will show is a Labour government increasing defence spending, ending the hollowing out and underfunding that his government that when he was a Minister of, presided over new capabilities for our armed forces, a stronger Britain in a more dangerous world. But I look forward to seeing the entire answer on his

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social media, not just his clip. Mr. Tugendhat, you have. The luxury of coming in early on

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The luxury of coming in early on this urgent question. Other colleagues would like to be heard as well. Minister, have you

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as well. Minister, have you finished? Michelle Scrogham? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think. Everybody will.

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Everybody will. Know that for quite some time. Myself and I agree with what the chair of the Defence Select

14:01

Michelle Scrogham MP (Barrow and Furness, Labour)

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chair of the Defence Select Committee has said on the dip. We've been calling for this to be delivered for quite some time. The urgency needed, not just for our businesses and our patches and the SMEs that need clarity on where they go with where they invest is absolutely vital. But what I would just kindly say to the opposition benches that are yelling from from sedentary positions, you shouldn't be proud of what you delivered in 14 years and and would sorry. My apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker.

And I would thank you. And I would just gently say that what we inherited as a government was an absolute bin fire when it comes to defence, and they should be absolutely ashamed of the mess that we we were left with. Would the Minister agree that it's absolutely right that the dip is presented accurately and for what we find ourselves in today? Not three years ago, when the world was a different place?

14:02

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank my friend for her >> Can I thank my friend for her question and also the way that she presented it? She's absolutely right that we need to increase investment. And actually, her constituency of Barrow is a really good example of that. The massive increase in employment and people working in the BA systems facilities, they're building the latest generation of nuclear submarines. The commitment to up to 12 SSN a s being built in Barrow, the huge investment not just in our nuclear deterrent, but also our Hunter-killer fleet, shows that when we get defence spending, right, when we put the effort into skills and into communities, defence really is an engine for growth and she will see that writ large when the Defence Investment Plan is published.

14:02

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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Ben Obese-Jecty Madam Deputy >> Ben Obese-Jecty Madam Deputy Speaker. We already know that the Defence Secretary is going to make an announcement in Swindon on Friday morning, and given that the Friday morning, and given that the Japanese Prime Minister is going to turn up on Saturday, I would suggest that some of that announcement was probably relate to the GCap funding, given that he's under significant pressure in which to guarantee that the funding and the international contract will be signed immediately. But the issue here is that it won't be the defence Investment plan, which is desperately needed.

Now. The Minister will know that I speak to defence companies all the time, and over the course of this week, I'm well aware that the government has cancelled tens of millions of pounds worth of contracts in the last few weeks. He talks about signing 1400 contracts. I would like the Minister to explain how many of those contracts have either timed out or been cancelled since April. The First Minister.

14:03

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank him? Yes. A number of questions there which are typically sensible from him, and I look forward to when he sits on the front bench as shadow defence front bench as shadow defence Secretary for the rumours are to be true. But what we say when it comes to GCap, we've made very clear our commitment to the Global Combat Air programme. It's something that the Secretary of State discussed with his partners on the GCap programme, the Italian and Japanese counterparts, when he was in Singapore only a couple of weekends ago at the Shangri-La conference.

We are committed to the GCap programme. We have signed the first international contract for that and to deliver that, we'll continue to work with our GCap partners. I don't have the answers precisely to the questions on top of my head, but I'll be sure to write to him with the answers. Paul Foster thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's critical to point out that this debate, this isn't about

14:04

Mr Paul Foster MP (South Ribble, Labour)

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funding. It's about the programs it funds. We must get these programs right and fit for future needs. In right and fit for future needs. In my constituency of South Ribble, many thousands are employed at Bay Systems in Walton and Salisbury who Systems in Walton and Salisbury who are working diligently, not just on ensuring the typhoon jet remains fit for the future, but also the fit for the future, but also the collaborative combat aircraft, also known as the Autonomous Jets program, which will not only secure thousands of jobs in the future but thousands of jobs in the future but also keep our country safe.

Does the Minister agree we must ensure the Defence Investment Plan is right, not rushed?

14:05

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for the for his question and I've seen for myself question and I've seen for myself the the skill and experience of the workers at Salisbury and at Warton supporting our typhoon operations, but also building parts for the F-35 programme. What is certainly one of the lessons that we can take from the. The war in Ukraine, a key learning that was recommended in the Strategic Defence Review is that we look at the growth of autonomy in particular, and we can see this already in terms of how drones have massively changed the front line, the fighting doctrine, and also the force necessary force structure that is required to deter and to fight in the 21st century.

That's true on land. It is true in the maritime domain, and it is true in the air domain. And a key part of the Defence Investment plan will be providing the latest technology for our forces, but also support for our industrial base to not only build more of those capabilities in Britain, but make sure that we can export them to our allies as well.

14:06

Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)

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Mike Martin Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add my views on the just like to add my views on the total unacceptability of releasing the Defence Investment Plan when the House is not sitting, as you know, said by my colleague, the chair of the Defence Committee, the Speaker The whole House, I think, agrees with that. I would also like to ask the Minister, as well as ruling out publishing the dip on Friday, also ruling out publishing it next week after the shambles of the SDR release, the defence committee was promised early access to the dip.

Specifically, the dip was mentioned. The defence committee is unavailable next week. So therefore, judging by what was said then by the Secretary of State, they won't be able to release it next week. So can the Minister confirm that it also won't be coming out next week because the correct?

14:06

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yeah. that's an argument for delaying the dip further that he was suggesting there, but I understand what he is trying to the argument that he is making. We will publish the dip before the NATO summit. That's commitment the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary has made, and we will do that.

14:07

Jessica Toale MP (Bournemouth West, Labour)

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Jessica Toale thank you. >> I welcome the £2.8 million that Bournemouth University has received to develop a cyber defence, intelligence and autonomous system intelligence and autonomous system courses. These are due to start in September and will equip the next generation with the technical skills they need to contribute to the UK's defence capabilities and ensure that we lead on the development of new technologies. So in that context, can the Minister confirm that an increase in defence spending isn't just going to go on Kit, it will also be spent on skills, and that universities like mine will continue to be part of our strategy to address the challenges that we face as a nation.

14:07

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yeah. She's a real champion for for her defence businesses in and around Bournemouth, and I'm really pleased that we were able yesterday to that we were able yesterday to announce the the universities and colleges across the country that will receive the the uplift in student places with their Supplementary places grant that will enhance the skills provision. We've already enhanced the provision of skills for further education with the announcement of five D TECs in England, hopefully two in Scotland, if the Scottish Government will support a second one and one in Wales, we need to go further with more higher education places and defence and defence adjacent courses and the money that was announced yesterday, not just for Bournemouth but for universities and colleges nationwide, will help support the next generation of talent to work in defence.

Good, well-paid, decent jobs.

14:08

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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Caroline Dinenage thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. I just can't much, Deputy Speaker. I just can't understand how it is that the government still has no idea how it's going to pay for the defence investment plan, according to media investment plan, according to media reports this morning, the dip is likely to be half of the bare minimum that the defence sector says it needs, and the even defence chiefs still haven't seen it. I wonder if the Minister could potentially comment on those media reports.

This is against the backdrop of every corner of our armed forces currently being asked to find cuts. Right now, the pips are squeaking in our armed forces, and our defence employers in my constituency are still in a state of limbo and uncertainty about the future. I've got enormous respect for the Minister as he knows, but even he must see that this feels like chaos.

14:09

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I equally have enormous respect for her, which was so politely. I for her, which was so politely. I disagree with her characterisation of this. I would also politely say, as someone who reads the media speculation on what is in the dip and what discussions have taken place, not always to believe what is written down online,

14:09

Jim McMahon MP (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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But. >> The defence investment plan is to be welcomed, and I also appreciate that it covers more than just equipment to talk about our just equipment to talk about our people and the built estate. He'll know because I've made representations before. I am concerned that since the closure of the local armed forces recruitment centres in towns like Maldon, we have seen recruitment of local young people fall through the floor. In fact, in Oldham the MoD doesn't even bother to record the numbers because they are now in single digits.

But the type of jobs that are being created, the skilled, well-paid, proud jobs shouldn't be distant for young people growing up in Oldham. And my second point is on procurement is covered but not disposal. Surely it's got to be the case that every vehicle, every pump, every generator, every bit of kit that the armed forces don't need by first refusal is offered to our friends in Ukraine.

14:10

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank my my friend >> Well, can I thank my my friend for his his question? He's certainly right that recruitment matters and that we as a government inherited a retention and recruitment crisis from the party opposite. I am pleased to report to the House that inflow into armed forces is now up 11.6% in the last year. Outflow is now down 8.9% and morale is now up three points just in the last year alone. But he raises a good point about recruitment.

I'll be very pleased to arrange a meeting between him and the Minister for Veterans and People that looks after recruitment, but he's also right when it comes to disposals. We work closely with our friends in Ukraine, not just to provide them with the kit and equipment direct from British industry and supporting procurement with our allies as well, but also where we retire UK kit, we look at whether there is a Ukrainian need for that, and so I can reassure him that that is a process that is underway.

I continue to speak to my Ukrainian counterparts about the additional support that we can provide for them. That's not just to support the fight tonight, that's also to support the the deterrence that Ukraine needs in the future. Hopefully, when peace arrives to prevent Putin from ever invading again. Adam Dance thank you, Mr. Speaker.

14:11

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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We've had some huge wins from defence firms in Yeovil like defence firms in Yeovil like Leonardo and Honeywell, but lots of other SMEs doing cutting edge defence work in Yeovil tell me that defence work in Yeovil tell me that without the dip they cannot properly plan. So what reassurance can the Minister give Yeovil defence SMEs that the limbo will end so they can plan investment and provide quality jobs, and will he meet with them? To discuss that further.

14:11

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I have to say to the hon. Gentleman he knows very well that Gentleman he knows very well that this Labour Government has been delivering for Yeovil quite considerably, not just with the billion pound new medium helicopter contract for Leonardo, not just in terms of our support for Gripen exports, that has supported a number of firms in his constituency, not just with the Defence Technical Excellence College that we funded in Yeovil, but with the announcement of the additional places for Yeovil College that we announced yesterday, more places for Yeovil College, more opportunities for young people to study.

And there is a growing defence sector in Yeovil that I'm very happy continuing to support, and I look forward to making further announcements, not just for him and Yeovil, but for the rest of the country as well, in due course.

14:12

Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)

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Amanda Martin. Navy mum, I'd like to associate myself with the Minister's condolences regarding the tragic deaths of our Navy personnel. Madam deaths of our Navy personnel. Madam Speaker, after 14 years of Tory underinvestment left our armed forces short of people, short of resources and short of morale. Yes, and understandably, frustrations with the dip, the delay. Does the Minister agree that Defence Investment Plan must now deliver the long term and continue to invest in our personnel and our bases, including Portsmouth, Royal Navy Base?

14:12

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. Well, as Devonport's MP, let me say to my Portsmouth MP, let me say to my Portsmouth colleagues that it is welcome that after many years under the Conservatives, where Devonport and Conservatives, where Devonport and Portsmouth and Faslane were pitched against each other under a Labour government, we can say confidently government, we can say confidently that there is work and resources for Devonport, Faslane and Portsmouth, and after much delay of the investment under the last government, will be seeing a multi-billion pound investment across our naval bases and the Defence Investment Plan will lay out some of that.

I'm very happy meeting her and her Portsmouth colleagues to say not just how we're investing in the kit and capabilities that our Royal Navy needs, but also how we're investing in the military housing, the skills, the support for veterans and the support for cadets in Portsmouth and across the country that we need to really improve our warfighting readiness and to make sure that we have the ability to deter aggression, but defeat it if necessary.

14:13

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)

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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown thank. >> Will be aware that we published a highly critical report on Sunday of the delay in the Defence of the delay in the Defence Investment Plan. The most important duty of a government is to defend duty of a government is to defend the nation. Under section three of the NATO articles, it says that. So our constituents want to know whether they're going to be properly defended. The armed forces need to know whether they're going to be properly defended. And above all, our allies need to know when they're going to be properly defended.

So why has the Minister been dragged to this House today and not able to tell us when the dip will be published? When will it be published?

14:14

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Before the Minister responds? The hon. Member has far more experience than I do, and we must experience than I do, and we must not be holding up props and booklets and magazines up in the

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booklets and magazines up in the chamber whilst we are speaking. Minister Madam Deputy Speaker, it was indeed a prop. However, I have read it and I welcome his contributions because I want to see more scrutiny on defence and I want to make sure that we are able to answer that, because the issues he raised around article three protections of NATO, of homeland defence, it's a really important one. It's one of the reasons that when I said in my opening remarks that the equipment plan that we inherited was unsuited to defence, it also had gaps in our defence and what I, he and others in this House will see when the Defence Investment Plan is published is not only how we're supporting our war fighting ability, our defence of our NATO allies, but also how we're supporting homeland defence.

So let me be very clear about homeland defence. Homeland defence is the entirety of United Kingdom and our overseas territories.

14:15

Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)

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Scott Arthur thank. do thank the Minister for his statement in Edinburgh South West. I am proud to have hundreds of people who work in the defence sector, and when I meet and speak with them, they tell me they have never been busier. But what the dip never been busier. But what the dip will provide, of course, is security to them so that they know they can pay their mortgage and think about planning for their kids go to university. So I welcome that.

It will be published soon. But I think what people want to know is if we publish it now, are we taking on board everything we have learnt from Ukraine? I think more importantly, everything we have learnt from Iran, because I think that there are real lessons to be learned from that conflict. The Minister also mentioned that the previous procurement Minister on his watch, 47 of the 49 projects were nearer on time or on Budget. Does he know what happened to that Minister?

14:16

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I thank him for his question. Well, I sit in his chair now, so that probably helps explain a little bit about what happened with him and the voters. To be fair to him, he was one of the few defence him, he was one of the few defence Ministers that was re-elected at the last election, with many of them no longer returned to the House. He's right, my friend, about the importance of long term security. That's why we're setting out not just the investment in our kit and capabilities, which replaces the equipment plans that were published previously, but also looks at our personnel, the skills and our infrastructure.

Because one of the areas that was hollowed out and underfunded consistently as capital was taken from those budgets was our defence estate. We know the scandal of our armed forces housing that many of our constituents were asked to live in, which is something we're addressing with a £9 billion programme. But it was across the. We have to look at lessons from lessons to improve our personnel and their experience. When it comes to Ukraine. We are in regular dialogue with our friends there, learning the lessons, not just in terms of the kit and capability, how Russia fights, how we deter Russian aggression against NATO allies, but also how we invest in the capabilities that Ukraine needs, but also what lessons we can have.

And programmes like Break Stop as a low cost cruise missile, informed by the work that our friends in Ukraine do, absolutely deliver that. But the lesson I take from Ukraine and Iran is that we'll need more autonomy, more drones, more understanding about mass, as well as exquisite high end capabilities. We should expect to see more of that in the Defence Investment Plan when it's published.

14:17

Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)

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Chris Law Madam Deputy Speaker. Defence Investment Plan have left our armed forces of defence, industry and our allies in limbo. Only in April, the government was warned that they had shown a, quote, warned that they had shown a, quote, corrosive complacency towards defence, leaving our national security in peril. So does the Minister recognise that these Minister recognise that these delays are illustrative of this complacency of our adversaries, with timely opportunity to explore and exploit our weaknesses, and the failure to agree and to fully fund our defence requirements is jeopardising the safety of our citizens.

14:18

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I appreciate the way in Gentleman. I appreciate the way in which he asked it. I think Scotland is an integral part of our national is an integral part of our national security apparatus. From the aviators that fly from RAF Lossiemouth in the north of Scotland, to the submariners that Scotland, to the submariners that serve from Faslane, as well as the extraordinary number of defence companies, large and small, across Scotland, not just in the central Belt.

There's huge opportunities. I hope that he will continue to pass on to the Scottish Government the importance of signing up for the second Defence Technical Excellence College. I'm still waiting for a reply to my letter that myself and my hon. Friend the Scottish Secretary wrote to the Scottish Government. We will fund one dtech in Scotland and if the Scottish Government can support that initiative with a second one, we can have one in the east and west of Scotland supporting the hugely important defence industries across there.

I hope that will be a point where we can consistent cross-party support and if we're looking for more cross-party support, can I encourage him and his party to back the brilliant submariners that support our independent nuclear deterrent that sail from Faslane? Because it is the independent nuclear deterrent that is the foundation of our national security, and one that we will continue to support in the Defence Investment Plan.

14:19

Luke Myer MP (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Labour)

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Luke Myer. Eastside Airport is benefiting from £173 million mod contract for Draken. And so, in addition to the contracts the Minister has set out, I think it's fair to say that the Department are not waiting for the defence investment plan to get moving with some of these contracts, but of course we do need to see the dip very soon. I think the elephant in the room is that what we're seeing in Ukraine is capabilities advancing and becoming obsolete in a matter of weeks, extremely quickly.

And so what assurance can the Minister give that when the dip arrives, it will be flexible in order for the changing nature of warfare in the months and years to come?

14:20

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank him and also congratulate Teesside on winning additional student places? In the announcement that the Defence Secretary made yesterday? He's absolutely right that the fast pace of change means we need to look of change means we need to look again at some of the technologies that we're investing in. I already described the equipment plan that we inherited from the Conservatives as unsuited to many of the threats that we face, but also we need to learn the right lessons from Ukraine.

And certainly the Strategic Defence Review set out a number of those. But the fast pace of iteration of drones in particular, and the complexity of a GPEW denied environment along the front line has fundamentally changed. I think the way that the British Army will need to fight in the future. We've seen some of that change already being announced by the chief of the General Staff. We'll see further capability announcements in the Defence Investment Plan, but I can reassure him and the House that the lessons from Ukraine and other conflicts around the world we've taken on seriously, because the pace of change in defence is a real one and we need a procurement system and and our fighting doctrine to reflect that pace of change and new technologies.

14:21

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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Mark Pritchard more. procurement. Can I turn the minister's attention to the land mobility programme and particularly mobility programme and particularly the Light Mobility Vehicle contract? He will know that the the Land Rover is retiring after 70 years of faithful service, but can I just encourage him, given that he will know that defence engineers in Shropshire are currently building the boxer, the challenger three tank? When that contract is looked at, would he come to Shropshire, meet with Basel and most importantly, sign the contract in Shropshire?

14:21

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> I will take that as good lobbying for one of those contracts. He's certainly right that the Land Rover has given many, many decades Rover has given many, many decades of faithful service to the UK armed forces. It is no longer suitable for the needs that our military have, and it's right that we now have, and it's right that we now replace it. I announced the beginning of that contract procurement only a few months ago. I've been to Basel. I've seen the skills that they have there.

I'm expecting this to be a well completed contract. But as the Defence Secretary has set out, we want to see more of our rising defence Budget spent with UK based firms, which is something that I'm certain that anyone procuring any contracts from the Minister of Defence in the future will have one eye on as well.

14:22

Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Ian Roome thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> First of all. >> I would like to say it was a great honour to attend Windsor Castle on Friday to see the presentation of the new colours to presentation of the new colours to the Royal Marines. It was an absolutely superb event and carried absolutely superb event and carried out to extreme precision. Given that, Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been reported that the Ministry of Defence is considering delaying or scrapping plans for the type 83 destroyer, the long term replacement for the type 45 due in the 2030s.

If this is the case, can the Minister confirm what alternative the government will review to ensure the future of the Royal Marines anti-aircraft and anti-missile Defence Minister?

14:23

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for mentioning the new colours awarded to the Royal Marines? My honourable colleague, the Minister for the Armed Forces was there with the Armed Forces was there with the King for that ceremony, and it reflects the continuing relevance and importance of the Royal Marines, and importance of the Royal Marines, which will be shown clearly in the Defence Investment Plan. He is asking me about a specific capability proposed by the last government that may be included in the Defence Investment Plan.

I hope he will understand that I won't be able to go into that line item description today. However, the broader point about how do we ensure air defence of our naval assets? We've seen from Ukraine that there's new capabilities that can provide elements of that. And we've seen also from the UK response to the Iranian drone threat to our sovereign base areas and our friends in the Republic of Cyprus, that how we create a truly layered air defence we is a really important lesson we've learned from Ukraine and that we've applied not just to our sovereign base areas, but also naval assets and our friends in the Middle East as well.

14:24

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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So, Julian Lewis. >> To defence Ministers. >> In their bare. >> Knuckle fight. >> With the Treasury for adequate. Defence funding? They really should Defence funding? They really should move away from this glib spin doctor's line about defence expenditure rising faster than at any time since the end of the Cold War. The situation we're in now is as dangerous as any that took place, not at the end of the Cold War, when defence expenditure was declining, but at the height of the Cold War and at the height of the Cold War.

Conservative governments, I think with opposition approval, spent regularly between four and a half and 5% of GDP on defence. So please do not parrot a line that goes way below what we need in the circumstances that we face today.

14:24

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Mr. >> Mr. >> I have a lot of time for the right hon. Gentleman, and he and I have spent many, many hours, I have spent many, many hours, I think, discussing the defence spending that happened. And spending that happened. And certainly I'm very aware of the danger that we now face. It's one of the reasons why, as a government, we've decided to declassify a number of those threats facing the United Kingdom. For instance, when the Defence Secretary declassified the activities of the Russian spy ship Yantar over undersea cables, it was both to explain the threats that we are now facing as a nation, but also to send a very clear signal to Putin that we see what he is doing.

And deterrence takes a number of forms, certainly capabilities, but the ability to call out, and in doing so, restrict the ability of Russia to threaten not just the UK and our allies is an important part that I understand and take what he says seriously.

14:25

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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Helen Maguire thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. People are suffering due to the cost of living crisis and taxes are at an all time high. The delayed investment decisions are paralysing planning for defence businesses. They're for defence businesses. They're stuck in limbo. So I wonder if the Minister could explain to me what he is doing to use innovative mechanisms like defence bonds, like the rearmament Bank, to support the defence sector and not place additional burdens on the taxpayer? Minister.

14:26

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank the hon. Lady for her question and and the continuing interest that she has in defence, interest that she has in defence, even with her new role in the Liberal Democrats, we are continuing to place contracts with continuing to place contracts with British Industry 1400. Since the general election, we have announced a number of those just in the past few weeks alone, which is seeing jobs growth and is seeing investment, both capital investment in infrastructure but also in people in the skills that are required when it comes to innovative finance.

We will set out in the Defence investment plan they're spending, and she will know that we're increasing defence spending. I welcome a debate around innovations, how we can get more value out of the pounds that we spent, certainly sending fewer contracts abroad, as was very commonplace under the Conservatives, is something that we've changed now with the Labour government. But I want to see the activation of more private capital to look at how we can support not just the supply chain, but potentially defence capabilities.

And that is something we've committed to do with the development of a defence finance and investment strategy, which we are working on currently.

14:27

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Doctor Andrew Murrison. >> A recent defence industry. >> Dinner, the Minister. >> Informed diners. >> That the.

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That the. Definition of British for the purposes of assigning a support from the government to British from the government to British defence industry, would be an address in the British Isles, which of course is a complete nonsense. Will the upcoming and much awaited and anticipated Defence Investment Plan clarify what is meant by a British firm for the purposes of government support and advantaging? British Defence Industry.

14:28

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. I had thought, Madam Deputy Speaker, for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman was the right hon. Gentleman was listening to my speeches at defensiveness, which I thought I was really pleased about. And unfortunately he misheard or has unfortunately he misheard or has has not quite got that right. Let me be very clear. UK based firms that hire people in Britain that pay their taxes, that invest in skills in Britain, UK based firms are the ones that we are backing in the Defence Investment Plan.

I am not interested in brass plaques. I'm not interested in that, where we have to send contracts abroad either to buy the technologies that we don't make in the UK, or exquisite capabilities that we buy from single sources. And he can think of probably a few of those time, a few of those examples from his time as defence Minister. We're now introducing an offsets regime so we can ensure that British companies benefit from that as well. That's a model that has worked well in Australia and in Norway, a number of other countries as well.

It's one that we've announced progress on and we've consulted on that as well. So not only are we investing in British firms, British based firms, but we're also ensuring that when we do buy from abroad, we're making sure that there is a benefit for the UK industry as well.

14:29

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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Richard Tice. The Speaker Earlier, and the mood of the House is very much that the long awaited Defence Investment plan must not be produced this Friday, and yet the Minister is still unable to provide that confirmation. So can through you, confirmation. So can through you, Madam Deputy Chair, we ask the speaker whether he would consider an emergency sitting of Parliament

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on Friday. If it is so produced. Is this a question to the Minister? Not actually. Questions to the chair. No doubt,

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Questions to the chair. No doubt, Mr. Speaker. Would have heard that. Mr. Speaker, has made it very clear his views and the chamber has clear his views and the chamber has made it very clear their views. Was it actually a question that Mr. Tice or not, the Minister, would

14:29

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Tice or not, the Minister, would you want to have another attempt at a question? >> No. >> Can the Minister confirm whether or

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or The plan will be produced on Friday. Yes or no? Minister. Well, let me tell the hon. Gentleman very clearly. We will publish the Defence Investment Plan before the NATO summit. And I know because he has written to me a number of times where he doesn't like my answers from the Dispatch Box. I really do hope that reform can take defence more seriously, and not try and dodge the important connections that we now know exist between senior reform figures and Russia.

Because of the bribes that the Welsh leader of reform took from Russia. It's really important that we expose that in the public domain, because no UK party should ever be in hock to Russia.

14:30

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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Sir Ashley Fox. >> The Defence Investment Plan is. >> Urgently needed to provide our. >> Armed forces with the resources

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Armed forces with the resources they need to defend our nation. So does the Minister accept that when the government shows itself capable of publishing its welfare spending until 2031, but continually delays publication of the Defence Investment plan, it sends a message to our adversaries of where its priorities lie.

14:30

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Mr. are coming from on this one. I understand entirely, and I it's good to see the the hon. Gentleman now joining in with that as well. now joining in with that as well. But let me be very clear on this. With increased defence spending, we've done so from the very first we've done so from the very first Budget that the Chancellor made from this Dispatch Box we're continuing to do that. It's £11 billion more per year today than it was under the last year of a conservative government.

We're spending that directing more of that money at British based firms. We're fixing the military accommodation that is in such a state. The first 1200 worst of those military homes are now refurbished, and we're continuing that work until 9 in 10 military homes are refurbished. We've given our armed forces the biggest pay rise in 20 years, 14.1% cumulative pay rise under a Labour government, rather than the pay freezes that many of them endured under a conservative government. We are rearming and backing Britain, and when the Defence Investment Plan is published very shortly, he will be able to see that as well.

14:31

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade thank you. >> For following my hon. >> Friend. For Yeovil. >> Contribution. >> I want to welcome. >> The contracts that. >> Benefits my. >> Constituents in Mid Dorset and

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Constituents in Mid Dorset and North Poole and. Others have mentioned the fast pace of uncrewed weapons, but I'm pace of uncrewed weapons, but I'm concerned about the attacks on the UK, that we may see a domestic attacks on our cyber energy and our food security. So can the Minister provide assurance that the Dip will address this, and also fund more public awareness of the threats to our home security and the role that we must all play in the defence of the realm? Minister.

14:32

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank her for her question and also for the championing of and also for the championing of defence firms? I know that she has around her constituency a really important part of making the case that defence is an engine for that defence is an engine for growth. She's absolutely right that the threats we now face as a nation are more complex than they have are more complex than they have been for a very long time. They're not just military threats. The United Kingdom is under constant cyber attack from our adversaries.

It's one of the reasons why we have invested so much in our cyber defences, and we'll continue to do so. But she also hits on a really important point. Defending our nation is not just a Ministry of Defence job. It absolutely is, but it's part of a cross-government effort. And that must include securing our food because food security is national security, it also means securing our energy supplies. It's the one of the reasons why we're investing so much in our clean power mission to generate more of our energy in the United Kingdom investing in renewables, good, clean, green jobs for the UK, but also reducing our reliance on energy from further afield and Iran's reckless actions in the Middle East have, I think, shown to everyone in this House.

Why investing in our energy security in home grown energy, not relying on imports from abroad is so important.

14:33

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

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Gideon Amos thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. The number one priority I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues put into the Renters Rights Act was decent homes Rights Act was decent homes standard for our military families, and I was delighted to welcome the government enacting that. government enacting that. Subsequently, as we did welcome the £9 billion to the service, family accommodation and military accommodation that Ministers referred to as Minister agree that a poorly housed and unhealthy fighting force is not the fighting force that we need in this country, and similarly, an unhealthy and poorly housed population is not what we need in this country.

So will he confirm that the dip will not be funded by raiding either the military housing Budget or the affordable homes Budget?

14:34

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Can I thank him for talking about military housing? It is not just for our armed forces personnel. It is importantly for their families as well. And as someone who represents a military area in Plymouth, I know that when our Plymouth, I know that when our forces are deployed abroad, if their families back home are living in accommodation with black mould and their kids bedrooms with leaky roofs or broken boilers, it affects their ability to do the job that we've asked them to do on a front line, or whether it may be so.

That's why, in opposition we made the commitment that we've made defence housing a priority in government. We've announced the Defence Housing Strategy to improve, rebuild or refurbish 9 in 10 military homes, a really substantial commitment, £9 billion. We've already made substantial progress against the 1200 worst family homes. And not only are we looking at what we can do with s sfas single service family accommodation, we're also looking at single living accommodation as well, because those people that live on bases should also be reassured that we value their service and want them to live in decent accommodation, whichever service they may be and wherever they may be, be deployed.

14:35

David Chadwick MP (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, Liberal Democrat)

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Chadwick. >> Chadwick. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituency is home to the Sennybridge training area, which is obviously an area of vital national importance. It borders Merthyr importance. It borders Merthyr Cannock Chase. That area only exists. The military training area only exists because local farmers surrendered their farms for the national interest. However, now his department is raising concerns that about foreign investment in the area, notably that from Bute Energy, which plans to build wind farms that could create a physical obstruction to air traffic movements and military operations.

Can the Minister outline what he's doing to support defence investment in Wales at sites like Sennybridge, and will he agree to meet with me and Merthyr Community Council to discuss Bute Energy's plans for their area?

14:36

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his interest? Every single nation in the United Every single nation in the United Kingdom, including Wales, will benefit from the Defence Investment Plan. Wales is already the recipient of one of the five defence growth deals that we announced, with new capabilities, new investment in skills taking place and we look forward to place and we look forward to speaking with the new Welsh Government in due course about how we operationalise that. When it comes to wind farms predominantly, the main objection that the MoD places to wind farm development is the impact on air defence radars, but I'd be very happy if you could send me some details.

So look at it in advance of us meeting, but very happy doing so.

14:36

Rachel Gilmour MP (Tiverton and Minehead, Liberal Democrat)

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Final question. >> As somebody who represents Devon as well as Somerset, can. >> I share the Minister's sentiments about the very tragic loss of lives in West Devon last week? I'm glad that the Minister has acknowledged that the anchor summit is imminent, but is he not deeply concerned that it's the government's dither and delay in publishing? The Defence Investment Plan is seriously undermining our credibility with our friends in the world, and sending a signal of immense weakness to our foes.

And further, that at a time when we should be showing leadership, I'm afraid this government is showing lethargy.

14:37

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister Minister. >> Minister Minister. >> Well, I don't quite agree with her assessment of this one here. If you look at the announcements that you look at the announcements that we've made as a government on defence in only the past few months, the standing up of the coalition of the standing up of the coalition of the willing with our friends in France, a multinational effort to support Ukraine, our continued support for Ukraine in providing kit and equipment and training for them, the forward land forces that we have in Estonia, being equipped with the latest drone technology, the work that we're doing with the UK led mission in the Strait of Hormuz, deploying brand new autonomous capabilities as part of a hybrid navy to deal with Iranian mines.

There you can see the UK stepping up. And what I've certainly seen over the last two years as a defence Minister is our international friends, be they parties of the left or the right in government, making the case that Britain is back on the world stage, that UK leadership matters. And when it comes to especially a changing geopolitical system, which we can all see around the world, how UK leadership in the Euro-Atlantic is especially welcome and is more desired from our allies to work with us on capabilities and deployments.

She and the whole House will see more of that when the Defence Investment Plan is published shortly.

14:38

Points of Order James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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That is the end of the urgent question on the Defence Investment Cartlidge. >> Deputy Speaker. Before you came to the chair, you'll have heard the very, very strong statement from very, very strong statement from Mr. Speaker about the prospect of the defence investment plan being delivered when the House is not sitting. His words were that it would be an utter kick in the face to Parliament if that was to happen. Now, I've raised it directly to the Minister, colleagues from across the House, on this side from three different parties, have asked the very explicit and specific question as to whether it's going to be delivered when the House is sitting surely Madam Deputy Speaker on such an important point.

There's such a significant plan in the context we face internationally. We should be entitled to expect confirmation from the Minister that it will be not not be delivered when the House is not sitting.

14:39

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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I thank the hon. Member for giving notice of his point of order. giving notice of his point of order. The speaker made it abundantly clear at the start of this statement just how important it is that the Defence Investment Plan is presented first to Parliament, and that members of this House have the opportunity to ask questions about it as soon as the plan is published. As the speaker said, I hope that speculation around the plan is to be published on a certain day is

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proven wrong. The House comes first, of course. The government could, of course, bring forward. A motion to enable the House on

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A motion to enable the House on a non sitting Friday. If those were the circumstances. If the hon. Member wishes further advice on that, of course he can get further advice on parliamentary procedure from the clerks in the table office. But Mr. Speaker made his views abundantly clear. Does the Minister abundantly clear. Does the Minister wish to respond or not? OK. We'll allow the front benches to now Right. If the House is ready, I call the Minister to move the Ways and Means motion in respect of the Railways Bill Minister to move.

I beg to move. Mr. Question is on the Order Paper. Minister. Keir Mather.

14:40

Motion: Railways Bill: Ways and Means

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is my pleasure to open this debate on.

14:41

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Oh my apologies. I was thinking about the past bit of business. I about the past bit of business. I wasn't focussed on this bit of business. And the question is, as on the Order Paper that say I, I of the contrary, no. the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We must. Will.

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The clerk will now proceed to read Bill. As amended.

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As amended. In the public Bill Committee. To be considered. Now we will begin with new

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Now we will begin with new clause 48, with which it will be convenient to consider other new clauses and amendments as listed on clauses and amendments as listed on the selection paper. I now call the Minister to move. New clause 48.

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Minister to move. New clause 48. Second time the charm. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is my pleasure to open this debate on the Railways Bill. As we have said before, this landmark piece of legislation will deliver the once in a generation reform that our country's railways are crying out for. For the first time in 30 years, Britain will

14:42

Keir Mather MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Selby, Labour)

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15:00

Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)

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15:21

Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)

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governments. So I now move on to the other group of amendments in my name, that of members of the committee and others in this House, including a number of members of including a number of members of this House who are and have always been very strong advocates of the been very strong advocates of the needs of people with disabilities. The number of amendments submitted for this debate on issues of accessibility show the strength of concern from members across the House to the importance of accessibility and of getting it right now in the bill of making railways accessible to all.

Whether one is a long term wheelchair user or will always need support to buy tickets or navigate a large station, or for any of us when travelling with small children or with luggage, accessible trains, stations, tickets, ticketing systems and staff culture needs to benefit us all. And so when it's hardwired into the culture of the organisation, it means that more people, all people, can feel confident to be able to travel by train.

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Because our rniB research. Found that 58% of those with visual impairments reported it was impossible to use the ticket vending machine. So I put forward a new clause 38 on that to ensure a minimum number of accessible ticket minimum number of accessible ticket machines. And does she seems as though she. Does she agree with me that it's incredibly important to make sure that the railways are

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accessible for everyone? Yeah. Of course I do. And a lot of

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Of course I do. And a lot of what I'm saying is stems from the work we did in our report published in February 2025 on called Access Denied the Rights versus Reality. And it's about so much more than just ramps and lifts, although those are essential for many. But as I say, it's embedded in the culture of the organisation. But so the amendments in my that I've outlined that I will outline, seek to embed in the legislation that aspiration they follow from the work on on both the work we did, both on the Railways Bill and on our report, access denied that I've just mentioned.

So there's a due clause, sorry, amendment 70, which places duties on Ministers and GBR set out in clause 18 and amendment 71 on the Passengers' Council. Clause 36 seek to secure improvements to accessibility rather than just promoting the interests of disabled people. Promote the interests being. The wording that in the. In the Bill as present amendment and an. Amendment 71 in addition, requires the Passenger Council to exercise its functions in a way that promotes improvements on accessibility of the rail network, rather than only having regards to the interests and needs of disabled passengers.

The Minister may well say that the Bill will will already drive improvements and the details will be in the GBR business plan and the Lters, but disabled people would like to see enforceable statutory responsibilities that require progress, not just vague having regard to type language or non-statutory policy documents.

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The hon. Lady and she's giving a powerful speech on the subject of this. And I earlier referenced this. And I earlier referenced Katrina, my constituent with thalidomide, who struggles to get thalidomide, who struggles to get to be able to reserve a seat. And and this feels safe and use the railway as she wants to. Does the railway as she wants to. Does the hon. Lady agree with me that it's tests like that that we need to see change so that people like Katrina can use the railway safely and see their needs recognised.

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Members description of the of the needs of Katrina speak not only for Katrina's needs, but the needs of so many people. And of course, he described Katrina's specific he described Katrina's specific physical needs and needs to have a seat. But. And the other important thing to recognise is that thing to recognise is that everybody, every disabled person's needs are different. And the rail, needs are different. And the rail, the rail system. But the whole transport system needs to be able to adapt and ensure that those needs are met.

And and then I now move to new clause 39 on accessibility, which is a very specific clause. And I welcome the sheer number of amendments today covering accessibility. But I've got a very specific clause in amendment in clause 39, saying that the Secretary of State must appoint a board of the Passengers' Council, and that these include at least two disabled people. The government told us that legislating for this recommendation is not needed, because the Transport Focus board already has representation and clause 18 general duties will apply when the board is appointed.

Well, whilst I welcome the offer to confirm an intention, why the resistance to putting this in legislation? So it's so it is secured in the future to say that Transport Focus currently has representation and that. Therefore, the Passenger Council's board will relies on custom and clause 18 to in brackets a saying promoting the needs of disabled passengers relies on a specific interpretation of a general clause. Neither of these are supports are secure. So in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend these amendments to the House.

I won't push them to the vote, as I anticipate they will also attract a fair bit of attention. In the other place when

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the bill arrives there. Thank you. Liberal Democrat spokesperson

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Olly Glover. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As we said at Second Reading and As we said at Second Reading and during the proceedings of the Bill committee, this bill has the right committee, this bill has the right goals of sorting out the convoluted and Byzantine structure of our rail industry and better aligning industry and better aligning infrastructure with train operation. But the question before us this afternoon is whether the bill, as currently drafted, achieves those very valid aims. The Minister gave the impression during the Bill committee that the bill was beyond any possible reproach or improvement on improvement on

15:28

Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)

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15:38

Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Labour)

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15:46

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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improvements of nationalisation. Whilst I don't support nationalisation on that principle, I do agree that the railway needs I do agree that the railway needs to work better for passengers and the communities in which it operates in and serves, and it is operates in and serves, and it is in that spirit. I will come to a number of amendments on the Bill. I number of amendments on the Bill. I support New Clause 30. In the name of the hon. Member, my hon. Friend Runnymede and Weybridge, to place a duty on GBR to publish an accessibility strategy every ten years.

The rail network should be easily accessible by everyone. As most speakers have spoken about today. There has been lots of progress in recent years on this issue, and I am pleased that most stations within my constituency are fully accessible. But that still leaves some stations that see hundreds of thousands of journeys made each year out of reach for constituents with disabilities or using buggies. Rye House station is the only train station in Hoddesdon, a town of 2000 people, but only one platform has step free and the other platform does not.

So it means you can have step free access when you come into London, and you can't have step free access when you leave to go home, meaning that passengers in a wheelchair or with buggies have to get off at a different station and longer journeys to go home. It gets even worse because at Theobalds Grove station in my constituency, it presents an even more difficult situation with no platform having step free access. So there is no alternative for people with disabilities in a wheelchair, for example, or families with buggies to use that station at all.

Both of these stations would be ideal candidates for accessibility improvements, and this should be a key priority for Great British Rail. Since my election, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have campaigned hard on the issue of traffic delays and roadworks, but these do not occur in isolation from other modes of transport, particularly the rail network. I support New clause 29, which directs Great British Rail to coordinate with transport authorities to minimise disruption. We need a joined up approach and a common sense approach.

When there are planned works on the line. We do not need utility companies coming along to dig up the high street as well, and it seems once one of those is causing a bit of disruption, it seems like the other one goes out of their way to do the disruption. At the same time, we just need these organisations to have a joined up approach, and common sense level crossings can also have a massive knock on effect to my constituents, particularly those that live in my villages.

In my constituency. A track runs right through the villages of Stanstead, Abbotts and Saint Margaret's. If the crossing line goes down for too long or there's a defect causing the line not to come back up and not to reopen, the entire village is cut off from basic services. Amendment 65 would bring a level crossing strategy into place, and so that we can look at the consequences of when issues go wrong and villages get cut off because they've got a train line going through the middle.

And this hopefully will reduce disruption to my constituents with any public body value to the taxpayer should be considered above all else. So I support the requirement for a Great British Railways to take steps to keep costs as low as possible. Rail services should be responding to changing needs. We see thousands of new homes built in the last few years, creating more of a strain on our rail services. The busiest station in my constituency has had thousands of new homes built near it, and more passengers now use it.

Since the pandemic, new clause 40 would ensure that new services respond to population changes. And this is very important because within the National Planning Policy framework, as this government tries to build those all over our greenbelt and make it easier to get planning permission around train stations, which I fundamentally disagree with, this amendment is even more important. So clause 40 should be supported by the government. New clause 37 seeks to ensure that trains are running more frequently so that local communities rely on and need.

That is also very important because communication from the railway network, from the companies on the railway and from my nationalised rail service is absolutely appalling. You can turn up to the train station. There could be issues on that train line. No staff are around to talk to. No one's communicating with passengers. They're just left at the train station to wait for another service if and when that turns up, there are a number of amendments I will I

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will give way. Could I just urge the hon. Gentleman to reconsider his point Gentleman to reconsider his point about the importance of building near railway stations? Because actually, my experience, and those of many MPs along the length of the Elizabeth line, is that this is generating huge amounts of economic growth. Really, significance in our

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growth. Really, significance in our communities is also reusing lots of brownfield land, and I hope that would also benefit his constituents. The hon. Member for giving way,

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The hon. Member for giving way, and I thank him for supporting the point I was making with the Elizabeth line. You had a new train line with new trains going through. At the moment, planning applications are put in and they say, well, they're next to a train station. We'll grant planning permission. There is no consequence for that train line at all. There is no new services. There is no extra trains that get put on apart from the thousands of houses that get built near it.

If my constituency were served by HS2 or we were getting a new train line, that is a completely different matter. But when you're adding on capacity to existing services and when you go through that planning process, there is nothing to say. There has to be more trains, there has to be a greater frequency. The trains have to be longer at rush hour to deal with those extra housing. So I thank him for providing an example that backs up exactly what I'm saying. So I think we need to look at how they communicate with the rail users and how this nationalised rail service will work, because, as I said, we one of the first areas in the country to be nationalised, and my constituents have seen no benefits at all.

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Andy McDonald. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me first point, members, to my entry in the Register of Members Financial Interests and the financial support I received from rail trade unions at the time of rail trade unions at the time of the general election. I'm pleased to support this bill and the wider programme of rail reform. While programme of rail reform. While setting out why I have tabled a number of amendments and support amendments in the names of other amendments in the names of other hon.

Members alongside the Passenger Rail Services Public

15:53

Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)

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Ownership Act. This legislation represents the most significant reversal of rail privatisation in a reversal of rail privatisation in a generation. It creates Great British Railways as the new publicly owned body bringing track publicly owned body bringing track and train together under a single strategic direction. After decades strategic direction. After decades of fragmentation, we have an opportunity to build a railway, running the public interest with running the public interest with resources reinvested in services rather than extracted from the industry. But if this bill is to succeed, it must always.

It must improve conditions not only for passengers but also for railway employees. The transition to GBR should be a just transition for railway workers, not simply an organisational reconstruction restructuring exercise. And I do encourage the Minister to consider a high level industrial relations strategy alongside the H loss, but I am concerned about reports of job losses at Network Rail ahead of GBR creation, and by evidence that some Tupe transfers have been accompanied by the erosion of collective bargaining arrangements.

The move to GBR should strengthen industrial relations, not weaken them, and in that context, the recognition of TSA for employees transferring from Network Rail into its wholly owned subsidiary, platform four, is deeply troubling. Removing long established recognition arrangements at the point of transfer sends the wrong signal about industrial relations. Under public ownership. Ministers have been asked what preparations are being made to understand existing recognition agreements and engage with trade unions during the transition. Yet we've heard responses suggesting that recognition remains a matter for individual employers that risks reproducing the fragmented industrial relations landscape created by privatisation rather than overcoming it.

And that's why

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I will give way. The honourable can I just first of all, congratulate the hon. of all, congratulate the hon. Gentleman, because it's the work that he did over the years to develop the policies that this develop the policies that this legislation is largely based upon. So I'd like to at least attribute that to him, the recognition of the that to him, the recognition of the work that he's done. But on the issue with regard to trade union negotiations, etc. what the what we've advocated for for quite a while is sectoral collective bargaining in this sector, as in others as well.

Why? Because it gives a voice to the workers themselves, and it also brings about stability and on issues, particularly about employment, but also about long term investment. Does he agree? Actually, it's one of those building blocks for the

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new system that we're creating. I had my right hon. Friend for his kind words, and I do fully his kind words, and I do fully acknowledge the point he's making. That is exactly how we're going to That is exactly how we're going to build a a sustainable railway that will serve our communities and be responsive to the reasonable responsive to the reasonable requests from its workforce as well. And that's why I've tabled a new And that's why I've tabled a new clause 26, an amendment 64, on the transfer of employees to GBR.

The original vision of reform was for a railway with a single directing mind. There's a strong case for a single employer to. The legislation should make clear that employees transferring from Network Rail, DFT, operators and former franchises move into a coherent organisation with full Tupe protections and clear employment rights. I would also encourage the government to move towards a formal framework for sectoral collective bargaining across the rail industry. Public ownership should create the conditions for partnership, workforce, voice and stable industrial relations.

Madam Speaker, I've also tabled a new clause 27 on pension schemes. It is remarkable that legislation transferring the railway back into public ownership contains weaker statutory pension protections than the legislation used to privatise the Railways Act of 1993 included detailed provisions protecting pension rights. Workers joining GBR deserve the same certainty. Every railway employee should have a statutory right to participate in the railway pension scheme on protected terms. I also support amendments to preserve schedule 17.

We all remember the overwhelming public opposition to ticket office closure proposals. Schedule 17 provides an important mechanism for consultation and accountability when significant service changes are proposed. Those protections should not be casually swept aside. And finally, Madam Speaker, I support my colleague the Member for Leeds East's amendments to secure GBR in the public sector for the future, and I also support my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington, amendment 35 and the wider principle of outsourcing.

He's absolutely right when he says that this does create the opportunity to seize that the greatest wave of insourcing in a generation. The railway should not rely on fragmented contracting models that create insecurity and limit progression, bringing contracted workers directly into GBR would strengthen workforce planning, improve standards and help. Fulfills Labour's commitment to treat railway staff as an asset rather than a cost. This Bill is an historic opportunity. Public ownership can deliver a better railway for passengers, but it must also deliver a better railway for the people who run it every day by strengthening protections for employment, trade union recognition, pensions and insourcing, we can ensure that Great British Railways is built on the foundations of fairness as well as efficiency.

15:59

James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)

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James Wild. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful for the opportunity as we embark on the government's back to the future nationalisation plan. And I'll be speaking to new clause 35 and amendment 68 and 69, tabled in my name. And together they are designed to ensure that Ministers and Great British Railways treat Ely Junction as the nationally significant bottleneck it is, and they make progress at passengers, freight operators and local communities are entitled to expect. In turning to my amendment, it's important to set out the context within which they sit.

Rail services to north west Norfolk are not good enough. There are too many late trains, too many cancellations and too much engineering weekend closures. And those unreliable rail services put people off travelling and have a damaging effect on the local economy, and particularly the visitor economy. So my constituents deserve better and improvements to Ely Junction would help deliver them. So why Ely? Well put simply, this is one of the most constrained parts of the national rail network. It's a major bottleneck where five lines converge.

A new clause 35 would require the Secretary of State, when setting the rail freight target and preparing the statutory rail strategy to treat Ely as a nationally significant capacity constraint. It would also require a report to Parliament to report on progress, rather than allowing this to just wither on the vine and show what is being done and what could be done is backing the Ely Area Capacity Enhancement Scheme. This would increase off peak capacity to ten trains per hour, enabling additional passenger services to King's Lynn and elsewhere, doubling freight services from Felixstowe to the Midlands and the North to meet the growing demand and removing nearly 100,000 lorry journeys annually.

And there was real relief across the area when the last conservative government approved and funded the project in 2023, as part of scrapping parts of HS2. And that was done in recognition of the exceptional cost benefits of this project. £5 of benefits for every pound invested. Compare that to HS2 with a derisory £1.20 for every pound invested in that scheme. And with rail freight demand growing strongly, increasing, the capacity of the network is vital and amendment 68 would require the rail strategy to include Ely Junction as a key capacity constraint for freight as well as passengers, and that would hardwire it into the system and the long term decisions that this bill is designed to support.

And that's necessary because, as with so many projects, transport projects in the east of England, such as the A 47, this government has chosen to pause the Ely scheme and cut the funding and instead, in the spending review, Ministers backed projects with much lower benefit cost ratios, meaning passengers continue to suffer from unreliable and less frequent services. More freight is required to use the roads and the infrastructure fails to meet the demand. Upgrading Ely Junction is about improving connectivity and passenger services in one of the growth parts of the country, supporting our ports and logistics, giving businesses the confidence to invest and unlocking key housing and employment sites.

So amendment 69 places a specific duty on Great British Railways. The controlling mind in this scheme to in carrying out its capacity function to have particularly regard to increasing capacity at Ely because without such a duty. Even if Ministers considered that Ely is a problem to be fixed, there is no guarantee that Great British Railways would choose to prioritise it, and through these amendments, Parliament has the opportunity to send a clear cross-party message that this upgrade is essential and further delay is not acceptable.

And, given the compelling benefits, the £5 for every £1 invested, I hope Ministers will accept my

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amendments today. Lawrence Turner. Thanks very much, madam. Deputy Speaker, I am really

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Deputy Speaker, I am really grateful to speak so early in this debate, and I wish to focus on debate, and I wish to focus on government amendment 92 on amendment 166, on devolution, which stands in my name, and the Select stands in my name, and the Select Committee amendments on disability access. And I'd like to thank at the outset my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth, the chair of the Select Committee for her leadership on this issue. Public ownership as a means to an end of improving passenger services has always implicitly been at the heart of this bill, and government amendment 92 makes that intent explicit.

I warmly welcome his presence on the amendment paper. I hope that the House will forgive a few words on the origins of this amendment. As the Minister said, a drafting issue was identified. In essence, although the requirement

16:04

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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16:12

Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)

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of a modern railway in a modern country. The new clause would also strengthen accessibility and extend the principles behind delay and the principles behind delay and repay to failure to in on board amenities while moving towards automatic digital compensation. automatic digital compensation. Importantly, NC one sends a simple message to all passengers come message to all passengers come first. The same principle underpins new clause 43, which would place a duty on Great British Railways to provide food and drink on rail provide food and drink on rail services over an hour for many passengers, particularly those travelling long distances from rural areas, access to refreshments is a necessity.

If we want people to choose rail over car, then we must think about the entire journey experience and not simply whether or not the train arrives at the destination. Passenger focus reform must also mean affordability. It's why new clause six is important at a time when many households continue to face a cost of living pressure, the clause would require plans for fare increases to be capped in line with inflation. It would extend standardised discounts for young people, provide discounted fares for veterans, establish a national tap in, tap out system, guarantee that passengers receive the best value fare regardless of how they purchase their tickets, introduce a national railcard and enable open source access to ticketing systems and fair fare databases.

The clause would also require collaboration with local and regional transport authorities to enable multi-modal ticketing in rural areas such as West Dorset, where passengers often rely on both rail and bus services. Joined up ticketing could make a huge difference linked to affordability and passenger growth. This new clause two, which would require a report into the merits of the rail Miles programme. We already reward loyalty and supermarkets. We reward loyalty and air miles, yet regular rail passengers receive little recognition for their continued use of the network.

A rail mile programme would encourage repeat journeys, support passenger growth and provide greater flexibility for commuters, students and working families. It could also help encourage modal shift away from private car use and towards public transport for young people. Passenger focused rail reform must also mean access to opportunity. It's why I tabled new clause 47, which would provide free rail travel for 16 to 18 year olds in education, training or apprenticeships. If a young person cannot physically reach a college apprenticeship or job opportunity, then every other intervention becomes less effective.

New clause 47 would help remove that barrier and support social mobility, economic participation and fairness. The needs of rural communities are also reflected in my amendment. New clause 40. This clause would place a duty on Great British Railways and the Secretary of State to ensure that rail services responded proportionately to permanent and to seasonal population growth. Coastal communities face the double challenge of being underfunded for their permanent population, whilst simultaneously accommodating huge seasonal increases in demand. New clause 40 would require consideration of rolling stock services and infrastructure investment to ensure that communities are not left behind simply because population increases occur seasonally rather than permanently.

New clause 42 would require an assessment of the benefits of constructing a passing loop at Tisbury, on the West of England line. This proposal is not important, not only important to my constituents, but across the South West. I have got to get on to climate change because it is an important issue. If climate and nature are not at the heart of this bill, we risk failing to build a railway that is resilient, that is not resilient to changing climate and increasing extreme weather conditions.

It is not about resilience. It's also about ensuring that every decision we make helps deliver our climate and nature targets. Why New Clause seven is so important it would establish statutory rail climate resilience and decarbonisation framework. It would require the identification of sections of the network vulnerable to drought, soil moisture deficit, flooding, heat and cold, alongside scheduled infrastructure improvements. Working with new clause eight and new clause 41, it would it would force the government and Great British Rail to give proper consideration to climate and nature, and I hope the government will give consideration to our amendments.

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Rachael Maskell. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. When we think about the When we think about the nationalised rail service, we often have debated the governance, which is of vital importance, and it was is of vital importance, and it was a real honor to work with the the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East on putting together the blueprint which has set this in the blueprint which has set this in motion, but we also must remember the staff and therefore I do refer to my register of financial interests as I raise a number of issues which can really impact on their experience of working for our railway.

On the 1st of November last year, a horror unfolded on East Coast Main Line Eleanor train southbound. It was a chilling reminder of the incredible skills of the rail staff to keep us safe. It is our duty in this House to ensure that we keep the staff safe. My amendment 56 and 57 seek to do that. Rail workers, whether on board, at stations or in our ticket offices, face an unacceptable level of violence and abuse, and the industry recognises this too, and how changes in work practices like driver only operation and lone working increases risk.

In fact, they support the changes. I'm proposing my amendments 56 and 57, would extend Gbr's function to include an assurance for the safety of all rail workers, including from assaults. It would also secure the safety of staff levels. To achieve this, let me provide some examples. A rail worker was physically assaulted after trying to prevent a member of the public from climbing onto train tracks. With trains imminently due into the station, another rail worker had a hot drink thrown over them after charging an excess for an invalid ticket.

Another was punched when they asked to see a ticket. Not only did he lose his tooth and need extensive dental treatment, but it is the long tail of the mental health impact that has resulted in him leaving the service. Others have been threatened by knives. The levels of violence is on the rise, with the British Transport Police latest figures showing a 24% increase in violence against rail workers compared to the previous year. It is staggering. I have raised this in Parliament many times.

We need strong legal protections for public transport workers against assault at work, mirroring new provisions the government has introduced for retail workers via the Crime and Policing Bill and previously for emergency workers. Transport workers need equally to have those strong protections. This is a devolved matter and I understand that the RMT has made significant progress in Scotland, with the Scottish Government committing to create a standalone offence of assaulting or abusing a public transport worker, not least as many have an enforceable element to their role.

Once this legislation is enforced, this will create a two tier of legal protections where

16:19

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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rail workers in Scotland, including those working on GBR cross-border services, are afforded strong legal protections and those working on GBR services in England and Wales not. It is really important that we move to a single system where we really do protect the staff from really do protect the staff from assault. Of course, my engagement with the Minister was very helpful to this means, and I hope we can to this means, and I hope we can make some real progress so that the safety of our staff, who serve us day and night is put first, extending these rights.

And I appreciate that. We have CCTV, we have body cams and of course, the British Transport Police in place. But we do need to see staff safe levels, but also ensure that if we have got those safe levels, that if there are any changes, that there is consultation brought to that to on the issue wider of a safe staffing levels, it is really important that we strengthen the passengers rights to be consulted on changes to those staffing levels, and therefore my amendment 58 seeks to achieve that.

And it's particularly important bearing in mind disabled people as well. The passenger watchdog has constantly shown that properly staffed trains and stations, not only important for passenger safety, security and accessibility, but also is safer for staff and the removal of guards from trains and cutting of staff of platforms or gates, gate lines or indeed ticket offices, also needs to have that consultation in place before any decisions are made to that measure. Finally, I have an amendment on open access operators.

If they fold, we need to ensure that there is a process and mechanism in place where staff can be trusted across all the equivalent into GBR, so they're not left without a job. We retain their skills and experience and ensure that they themselves continue the employment onto our national rail you.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I rise to speak to new clause and I rise to speak to new clause 17 and amendment 46, which both stand in my name. Now, as we consider the amendments in front of consider the amendments in front of us, I want to focus my remarks on a very simple principle, which is if Parliament is creating great Parliament is creating great British Railways, and we can argue and argue about any timeline, and we're concentrating more we're concentrating more responsibility and decision making within a single national body, then it's only right that there should be appropriate accountability and local democratic oversight.

Alongside that, as this bill stands, it falls short in this regard. But let me be really clear on this new clause 17 does not seek to prevent decisions being made, nor does it seek to create unnecessary bureaucracy, but rather, what it does is it ensures that where decisions relating to railway services or infrastructure have a significant impact on local communities and economies, then members of this House elected to represent those communities are consulted. Surely that is what

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local democracy and accountability is all about? Yes, of course, my right hon. Friend for giving way, and she's

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Friend for giving way, and she's making a very important point. My constituents are utterly shocked at at the moment if they want to at the moment if they want to travel between London and Stoke on Trent and get a train today, it Trent and get a train today, it will cost a minimum of £160. We really do need local democracy and local decision making because these

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prices are outrageous. The right hon. Lady makes a really, really important point because I know personally, I found of late the train prices going to Birmingham, far from being lauded as a lot cheaper, some of the fares are absolutely eye watering, so I would call upon the government to take a serious look at that. And rather than just say, oh, fares are all cheaper, look right across the board because some of them are far from affordable. Affordable. Which is why I also support my hon.

Friend on the Front Benches amendment. When it comes to the railcard for our veterans, another really, really key thing that we need to make sure is delivered because it's actually members of Parliament who are often the first port of call. As my right hon. Friend has demonstrated, when there are problems with rail services, ticketing, or when communities are campaigning for investment, whether it's constituents, businesses, community groups or local campaigners, they rightly expect

16:23

Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)

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their MP to be their voice and their champion. Local knowledge matters, and surely those who are matters, and surely those who are elected to represent our communities should have a role in decisions that affect them. I know decisions that affect them. I know from my own constituency of Aldridge-brownhills just how important that can be. As the hon. important that can be. As the hon. Gentleman on the front bench knows, and he is smiling. I have long campaigned for a wreck for the campaigned for a wreck for the restoration of a railway station in in Aldridge, and I make no apology for championing that cause, and I won't be giving up anytime soon.

Members across the House will have heard me raise this time and again for very good reason, because, Madam Deputy, for too long, communities like mine have been left behind by the railways. We now hear also talk of new passenger services such as Wsmr running through our village without stopping. That would be a huge missed opportunity if we're serious about unlocking the economic growth that the Black Country so desperately needs, then connectivity is key. Throughout this debate, I've been interested to hear contributions about the importance of putting passengers at the heart of our railway system.

Now, I of course agree with that, but surely it cannot be right that decisions with significant local impacts could be taken without speaking to the very members elected to represent those communities. If we're to have great British Railways, then we should also have great British accountability. This is not an argument against the direction of the government have chosen to take. Government have chosen that path, but greater centralisation must be accompanied by greater accountability. That seems to me to be a very reasonable proposition, and one that I genuinely think members right across this House would be able to support.

And when it does come to accountability, I've also tabled amendment 46, which would ensure that where directions are issued to Great British Railways, they are shared with the Transport Select Committee. That, again, seems to me to be entirely sensible, because just as local communities deserve to have a voice through their members of Parliament, Parliament itself should be able to exercise proper scrutiny. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand, and if Ministers are to have significant powers over Great British Railways, then surely it is right that this House and its select committees are able to see how those powers are being exercised.

Ultimately, both of my amendments are about striking the right balance between central direction and democratic accountability. Local communities deserve to have their voices heard, and Parliament should be able to exercise proper scrutiny. Whilst I shan't be pushing my amendment to the vote or my new clause to a vote, I really do hope that the Minister will reflect on that point, give these proposals serious consideration and will respond to them when he wraps up at the end of this debate. Thank you, Alex Mayor.

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Thank you, Deputy Speaker. First of all, to say that I do warmly welcome this bill. It's fantastic welcome this bill. It's fantastic that the vast majority of residents now passengers in the east of England, are travelling on trains England, are travelling on trains in public ownership. And this is the next piece of the jigsaw. I note that the amendment paper note that the amendment paper appears to be longer than the bill itself. But as somebody who's contributed to that, I'll now turn to some of my amendments.

So first

16:27

Alex Mayer MP (Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, Labour)

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to some of my amendments. So first up, a new clause 20, which is a fairly simple amendment on promoting integration between trains and everything else. So buses, coaches, trams, walking, cycling. I agree, there's absolutely nothing in the bill that prevents this, but I feel that there should be something in the bill to actively encourage it. I think we've all been at a station when the mainline train has been delayed, and then very helpfully, that connecting train has been held back for a little time.

But interestingly, when I asked somebody at the Transport Select Committee recently who ran a bus company, had he ever come across a situation where the train had been held because his bus had been delayed? Absolutely not. And vice versa. And in fact, there are lots of incentives to stop that happening within the transport system as a whole. A bus company, after all, can get fined for having delayed buses, which is why I feel that we need something on the face of the bill which promotes that active integration.

My next set of amendments are 39, 40, 41 and 42, which are about devolution and consultation as drafted at the moment, the Secretary of State and GB are is consulting with Scottish and Welsh Ministers, but by contrast, it says that they would consult with mayoral strategic authorities. So the difference there is, in one sense, you're consulting with a person and in the other sense you're consulting with an organisation. And I strongly believe it should be the mayor as the person who has got that Democratic mandate, that that consultation should take place with to enable us to have stronger, quicker decision making and make sure it's very clear what is happening there.

Turning now to the hon. Member opposite new clause two on the customer loyalty programme. I can't say that I agree with the concept of the Secretary of State

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having to No. Report on this within a year. I think the Secretary of State has think the Secretary of State has probably got better things to do than that. But the concept behind it of having a customer loyalty program is something that I have program is something that I have long called for and had constructive discussions with the constructive discussions with the Minister about, because I really think that making sure that we encourage passengers and would be encourage passengers and would be passengers to build a loyalty to our railways matters greatly.

And as has been said before, you know, it happens with air miles and it happens with Tesco Clubcard. I think you get all kinds of different benefits for passengers, and also that GBR could use it to try and flex demand. And finally, I also think we need a great British spruce up of all of our stations because as we as we roll out GBR, I want everything to look really good at all of our stations. And also I'm very reassured by my conversations with the Rail Minister in the other place about names on trains.

I was worried that as we painted them all red, white and blue, those names that people have chosen and show pride in place might disappear or indeed we might not get any new ones. So I hope the Minister might join my campaign to get the next train that's painted red, white and blue in my area named Q central, after the fantastic women who were a part of an organisation called Q Central in World War Two, which was the communications hub for the whole of the UK.

And I think it would be fantastic if the first GBR branded train bore that name as well.

16:30

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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Sir Ashley Fox. >> Sir Ashley Fox. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. A modern railway system should enable everyone, regardless of enable everyone, regardless of their mobility, to travel safely, independently and with dignity. That is why New Clause 30, which places a duty upon Great British Railways to establish a strategy on accessible rail, is so important. If the railways are to be nationalised and brought together, then we should take that opportunity to ensure that the new body takes a strategic approach to ensuring that rail travel becomes more accessible for all our constituents.

I have two stations in my constituency, Bridgwater and Highbridge, neither of which is fully accessible at neither station. Is it possible for a passenger with poor mobility to cross from one platform to the other without leaving the station and taking a circuitous route that involves crossing a road? That is not only inconvenient, but unsafe. And I witness this for myself. Recently in a visit to Highbridge Station. Believe it or not, Madam Deputy Speaker, I used the mobility scooter and attempted the journey that many disabled passengers are forced to take.

The experience was difficult and frankly alarming, especially for anyone that happened to see me. The route included uneven pavements, awkward navigation and crossing over a railway bridge. It required time, effort and confidence that not every passenger can reasonably be expected to have. This isn't just about fairness. With improved accessibility, journeys become smoother, connections are easier, and delays caused by limited access are reduced. Now, while I welcome the Department for Transport's Access for all scheme, it is disappointing that neither Highbridge nor Bridgwater stations are currently on track to receive support, so I will continue to work with Burnham on Sea and Highbridge Town Council to resolve the issue in Highbridge.

We have met with Network Rail and Great Western Railways to raise these concerns directly and while there is recognition that change is needed, that recognition must be matched with action. I also want to support new clause 53, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland and Fakenham, which lays down key performance indicators for Great British Railways. Clear, measurable targets should guide how we assess accessibility and service quality, whether it's step free access, reduced transfer times or improve customer satisfaction.

These benchmarks matter and crucially, they must be followed through with real accountability. Amendment 157, also tabled by my hon. Friend, serves a similar purpose, ensuring that Great British Railways is duty bound to promote passenger and economic growth and increase investment. In particular, New subparagraph J would make GB are duty bound to remove or reduce the need for public subsidy of the railways. And what we haven't heard from the Minister is getting good value for money for the taxpayer.

I am concerned that over time, Great British Railways will transform into another British Rail, a public corporation beholden to the unions, soaking up ever greater amounts of taxpayers money and more focused on keeping Eddie Dempsey and the RMT satisfied than their customers. I want a better run, more efficient, more productive railway for my constituents, one that will be used and enjoyed by the greatest number of people, and one that doesn't cost the taxpayer a fortune.

16:34

Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Labour)

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Chris Hinchcliff. significant piece of legislation, and I have tabled a number of amendments, which I believe would strengthen it even further. But in strengthen it even further. But in the time available, I will focus on the issue, which is without doubt the top priority for my constituents when it comes to rail constituents when it comes to rail reform, cutting fares through amendment 32. Madam Deputy Speaker, 30 years of railways run for shareholder profit has left British commuters with some of the highest fares in Europe and taxpayers shelling out more in subsidies than it costs to run a public service for the pleasure.

It really was the worst of all worlds when something basic that people need to live their daily lives like getting to work or school, visiting family or seeing a doctor is treated as a commercial enterprise. What should be a service that facilitates our lives degenerates into a way of squeezing as much profit out of people as possible. And when you're more or less turned into a cash machine just to get around, it's no wonder extortionate fares put so many people off using the railway altogether.

And I'm sure we've all seen the mind numbingly bonkers stories of instances where it has been cheaper to fly to Europe than to get a train from London to one of our great northern cities. That is what happens when essential public transport is handed over to private capital. In a sector where real competition cannot function for too long. Our ability to get around reliably and affordably has come second to extracting profit for shareholders, and we see similarly infuriating failures with our water and energy to taking back control of our railways, mean we can rewrite the rules so that they work for ordinary people at long last.

So I pay credit to the Labour government for getting us here. But now it is vital vital that we grasp the opportunities presented by public ownership. Using that control to make rail travel more efficient and accessible for all. And crucially, turning to amendment 32 in my name. More affordable. Ultimately, Madam Deputy Speaker, we must always keep in mind that it won't wash to just tell the public that nationalised nationalisation has made our railways better. They need to feel it in their pocket.

The goodwill for a different way of doing things is undeniable. The public overwhelmingly supports the principle of public ownership, but this support will vanish if fares continue to rise. My amendment proposes a great British Rail Railcard, our own version of schemes in Germany, Switzerland and Belgium. And instead of a morass of wildly varying fares, discounts based specifically on age or other characteristics and schemes which almost seem deliberately designed by some fiendish minds determined to catch passengers out with validity only on certain routes in at specific times.

Amendment 32 would give every resident in the UK the right to a rail card, offering substantially reduced fares on all rail travel. Whatever your age, whatever the route, whatever the time of day. Madam Deputy Speaker, the best signal we could send to the public as we take over the railways is to use some of the savings from reduced waste management costs and ending profit flowing out of the system to bring down fares. 7 in 10 Brits, a full 70%, say the government should wholly reinvest savings from ending rail privatisation to cutting fares or opening new rail services.

For decades now, the cost of existence in this country has been killing off hope and the chance to embrace so much of what makes life worth living. With. Death by a thousand costs. Energy bills are too high. Rents are out of control. Council tax goes up and up and up. We have got to pull every lever available available to us across every part of government, to lift the weight of the cost of living crisis so that everyone can afford the basics of daily life without facing the constant stress and struggle of scraping by.

For a key worker who schleps into work each day on a train, or for a disabled person or pensioner heading for multiple medical appointments a month, knocking 25 or even 50% off their travel costs would make a profound difference to ensuring the sums add up at the end of the month. Cheaper fares would benefit millions of people from those at the sharpest end, struggling to put food on the table to the squeezed middle. That feel like the helping hand of government is always reserved for someone else.

Rail fares are a crucial way of showing a Labour government is on the side of all these people, a benefit to all and a loss to none. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that my amendment 32 is a chance to show tangibly, in a way that reaches across generations, geography and traditional political loyalties that labour values mean more money in your pocket.

16:39

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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Adam. first thank you for keeping us on time and on track. Much better than some of the trains I've travelled on. I'd like to speak in favour of on. I'd like to speak in favour of a new clause one tabled in the name of my hon. Friend from Didcot and an amendment 55 tabled in the name an amendment 55 tabled in the name of my hon. Friend for Glastonbury and Somerton. When the government came into office with a promise to do something about the shocking state of our trains, people back in Yeovil all said finally, it's about time.

Which just so happens to also be what they say if the train eventually shows up. So there is a lot to welcome in the bill, but it needs to go further if we want to address the problems of rail travel in Somerset. Lucky enough, us pesky Liberal Democrats have some ideas that the government can support today. Our passenger charter and our amendments would provide a range of guarantees that would address the changes challenges people in Yeovil face when trying to get a train, and would back those guarantees up with a framework for compensation, fails to comply with the charter like delay.

Repay Our Charter's guarantee is about value for money would mean appropriate apprentices like Greg would not be priced out of rail travel. He worked out that currently it would cost him £5,200 for an annual train ticket to Exeter, a quarter of his salary instead of £1,750 if he lives. Shared with a friend. You can see why people don't use the trains at the moment. Our charter guarantees for proper sitting for any single part of rail journeys longer than 30 minutes will mean something finally has to be done about the overcrowding on trains from Yeovil Junction, which makes travel for people like Colin a nightmare.

Even when they get off their train and try and get the next one. Only the other day I was chatting to disabled passenger on the train on the overcrowded train to London and she told me that if she wants a seat, she has to fork out lots more money for first class tickets to have peace of mind so she doesn't have to stand. Our charter calls for proper services, including good Wi-Fi, clean toilets and catering, and a few plugs would help.

We'll also mean long journeys should not be uncomfortable. Nightmare the charter guarantee on the reliability of services and amendment 55 requirements. Better links between rail travel and onward transport, like buses or active travel, will mean people like Janey will be able to use Yeovil Junction more reliably because at the minute, a lack of bus services means when trains are late, you miss the bus and are forced to wait for ages to get home or have to fork out for a pricey taxi.

Hopefully, we will also get a safe, active travel route to Yeovil Junction two. Finally, our charter has guaranteed rely. Rely relates to improving accessibility for train stations, the areas around stations and replacement services will force more action to support disabled passengers in rural areas. Because this is a real issue in Yeovil, staff shortages and lack of proper training have seen both Jack, a wheelchair user, and Cathy, who is visually impaired, suffer accidents at Yeovil Pen Mill. And as Cathy points out, at the moment things are only getting worse, with staff retiring after years of service and GW are not hiring replacements beforehand.

Jack even described to me how she's made to feel responsible for her accident, because she needed to use a ramp that is not good enough and not acceptable at all. Our charter makes it clear as day that accessibility is the responsibility of Great British Railway, not passengers. So I do hope the government will listen and take on board our ideas, because we need this bill to succeed. If we want to

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get the trains working for people in Yeovil again. Thank you. Matt Rodda. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and it's a pleasure to speak. In this afternoon's debate, I wanted to address some of the issues to address some of the issues raised by a new clause 22 and other clauses in relation to disabled people, and if I could just make it clear for the sake of the record, I didn't mean to sign New Clause 22. And in fact, I've asked the office to remove my name from from that to remove my name from from that clause, although it won't appear in the paperwork until tomorrow.

I also wanted to point out and offer

16:43

Matt Rodda MP (Reading Central, Labour)

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my wholehearted support for the bill to thank the Minister and bill to thank the Minister and indeed his shadow predecessor, the Member for Middlesbrough, who I had the pleasure of working with in opposition. I do think this bill is opposition. I do think this bill is an important bill which will bring track and train together and deliver enormous benefits for local residents, not least in residents, not least in constituencies like mine. In reading, where we have a significant number of commuters, but also we have a lot of economic but also we have a lot of economic growth generated by rail investment.

And it's a shame I wasn't able to have a further discussion with the Member for Broxbourne, based around his slight misunderstanding of my point on this. It's really important to consider the benefits of rail in terms of economic growth for the country, and the Elizabeth line has, whilst it cost about £18 billion to. To carry out that investment already the first three years it was operating, it's now operated for several years. There was £42 billion of economic growth generated by that very wise piece of investment, which is backed by both parties, both main parties, and I would hope, other smaller parties as well.

And I do hope that we can all come together and support that. I also, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I may just declare a bit of an interest here and say obviously, not only represent a town which has seen huge growth thanks to rail investment. I also was involved in the Paddington rail crash and was lucky to survive that. I'm a regular commuter and in addition to that, I should thank the RMT and Aslef for supporting my general election campaigns in the past and declare an interest in that extent as well.

Turning to the issues raised on the importance of improving disabled access. I didn't want to speak about step free access and stations. There was a clerical error between my office and someone in the house, possibly my own fault as well. I'm not quite clear how this happened. I wanted to speak about the use of steps for access to taxis at stations, because there's a very live issue at Reading Station on this at the moment, and indeed, a number of local taxi drivers have raised this with me, and I would like to just pay tribute to one colleague in particular, who's one of the regular long standing taxi drivers at Reading Station.

Him and his colleagues, who are long standing taxi drivers, have pointed out that due to faults in the design of the new station, which is a huge asset to our community, there are issues getting disabled people in and out of taxis and that was the point I Minister for his help with this matter, because it appears to be a problem caused by poor quality design. Some years ago, the station, the new station was opened some while back under the last government's supervision, and I'm not criticising them for supporting the rebuilding of the station, but I would just like to see more training and understanding of this issue by architects.

A better understanding of the need for disabled people, particularly those who are wheelchair users, getting in and out of taxis at railway stations. In addition, in addition to the issue of step free access at stations, and perhaps it might be possible for me to meet officials in the department about this important matter. In the case of reading, the station is operated by a private railway company on behalf of Network Rail, so it's even more complicated. So I do hope that the Minister may be able to help me kind of find a way through the bureaucracy that's involved.

I have had some initial offers of help from GWR and from Reading Borough Council, but I do hope we can address this issue, and I don't want to see taxi drivers having to lift heavy wheelchairs in and out of taxis at our station. I want that to be a seamless process where disabled people can use the trains. They get support at reading from a dedicated member of staff, which is excellent. There is step free access we have that. I would love to see that expanded further.

I know the government wants to do that, but I would like to see designed in features to allow passengers who are disabled and use wheelchairs to easily use the access to taxis, because it's a vital part of their transport, and integrating road and rail transport in this way is important. Could I thank the Minister for listen to this point, and I look forward to speaking to him or his colleagues Speaker.

16:47

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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Doctor Ben Spencer. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I beg to move new clauses. 29, and I beg to move new clauses. 29, 30, 3132 and amendment 65, 66 and 67 in my name. My mission is to 67 in my name. My mission is to keep Runnymede and Weybridge moving. Rail and transport locally is very important to us. We are situated within London Commuter Belt. We have a 10th of the M25 running from my constituency, along with the M3 and Egham is five miles away from Heathrow.

We have companies who are established because of our transport connections, but also companies which deliver services linked to transport, such as logistics. So I have tabled a series of amendments to this bill with a view of improving services and transport, not only in my constituency, but they will have effects across the country, as we've already heard from colleagues, and I'd like to thank the members of Broxbourne and Bridgewater for referencing some of my amendments in their speeches today. If Madam Speaker is not minded to grant divisions on these amendments, I very.

At the very least, I hope that the Minister will be minded to support them, not least in the spirit of improving the rail service across the country, but also, perhaps to stop having to listen to me rattle on about the level crossings in Egham and other problems in my constituency, and I think a key strength of this bill has been said by several Ministers, which is that the buck stops with them. I believe the Secretary of State said the buck stops with her. I think Lord Henry, when I met with him, the buck stops with him, and I think that's a key improvement in terms of the previous system, where we had a separation of S, W, R and Network Rail.

Now we have a clear person and organisation to go to to raise issues with problems with regards to rail and infrastructure in our constituencies. The first new clause I'd like to talk to is New Clause 29, which gives Secretary of State the power to direct GBR to cooperate with transport authorities to ensure the effective operation of transport networks and reduce disruption. The reason for this is because it does not make sense. At the same time that someone closes a motorway or closes an arterial road to have engineering works happen on the railway.

At the same time, it does not make sense to have multiple pockets of utility works around Chertsey, where I live all at the same time. We need better coordination between all bodies to make sure a. It doesn't all happen at the same time, but b if a utility company is going to open the road to do works on, let's say, the water. Why not fix the gas or electricity or lay down the broadband at the same time? New clause 30 relates to an accessible rail strategy.

This affects many stations across our country. Frankly, I think it's scandalous that we have six such accessibility problems. But particularly in my constituency, there is a focus in terms of the Weybridge lifts, which I have been again going on about for many years now, which frequently break down, affecting many passengers across Weybridge. I'd like to give a shout out to Tim Blanchard, who's a wheelchair user who has led a campaign to try and improve the. They're going to be replaced, I'm promised, this summer, which will finally see an end.

We hope to. The Weybridge saga, but we need more. And this accessible rail strategy, I hope, will prevent other colleagues having the same problems we have had locally. Very happy to give way to my colleague.

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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for tabling new clause 30. Has he

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been offered any explanation from the Minister or any part of the ministerial team as to why they won't accept his new clause? I'm Ben.

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I'm Ben. Spencer, I thank him for his intervention. Well, I hope we will hear from the Minister as to why he hear from the Minister as to why he may or may not accept this clause. I hope he ends up doing so. While I I hope he ends up doing so. While I will refer to him, though as a previous. In the previous government, the Weybridge lift was notorious in the Department of Transport. I see some colleagues nodding because of the problems that we had there, so I hope that it will lose its notoriety going forwards as the lifts are replaced.

New clause 31 sets out requirements for GBR to ensure planned changes to passenger services are made, with due consideration of objectives and following communication with stakeholders. This refers to an issue during summer 25 where services were cut cut during the summer holidays. Quiet off peak services, which included services from Chertsey between half and seven and half nine, impacting people's ability to get to work and feedback from stakeholders is important because, after all, it's a service for our citizens.

New clause 32 requires Secretary of State to review provision of infrastructure and services before an application of nationally significant infrastructure can be approved, and the third runway at Heathrow, it looks, is going to go ahead. I oppose it, but if it goes ahead, we need to make sure that we have improvements in terms of rail infrastructure locally, which is already creaking, particularly surface access transport, which brings me nicely on to amendments 66 and 60, sorry, amendments 65 and 67, which I know we've all been waiting for, around the level crossings.

Egham is punished day in, day out with level crossings with excessively long downtimes. This is unacceptable. It needs to change. We need one, if not more, of the level crossings to be removed. I'd like to see if the third runway ends up going ahead. That is linked to the link to funding coming out of Heathrow otherwise, so that we can get Egham moving. I'm grateful for the minor improvements that are going to be made by SWSWRS engagement on this, but please, please, please help me get Egham and Runnymede and Weybridge moving.

16:53

Mrs Elsie Blundell MP (Heywood and Middleton North, Labour)

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Elsie Blundell. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And as I made clear at Second Reading, this crucial bill is about undoing the immeasurable damage done to our rail network, to done to our rail network, to passenger confidence and to economic prosperity. After decades of privatisation and woeful of privatisation and woeful mismanagement, I would like to focus my remarks on the topic of rail devolution, and I would like to commend the Transport Select Committee on its incisive report into this issue, and particularly my colleague and my hon.

Friend, the Member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, for her and for the amendments drafted in her name and her clear desire for us to get the most out of this legislation. I know how much is riding on this for our regional mayors, strategic authorities and most importantly, the passengers they serve. My appeal today, let's ensure that this bill supports this government's devolution journey. Transport planning is a crucial competence of our elected mayors, and a mayoral strategic authorities are truly emboldened. Entire city regions, local transport networks and whole communities are strengthened.

As a result, we must do as much as possible to support connections that improve economic density and therefore boost growth. Our achievements in Greater Manchester are a testament to this, and the absorption of rail into the network. Network is the critical next step in delivering on the priorities of local people. I welcome Government Amendment 136, which would enable local bodies to enter into certain arrangements with the Secretary of State. But I know that concerns remain that it may not reflect the full capabilities of our mayoral authorities.

I would welcome any assurances from the Minister that this provision will not be narrower than existing provisions set out in the 2005 Railways Act, essentially. Can the Minister confirm that this amendment supports meaningful partnership with our elected combined authority mayors? And as the Bill stands at present, engagement between British Rail and our mayoral authorities could be predicated on goodwill between officials negotiating on their behalf, with little codified in the way of a formal statutory partnership between the two mayoral strategic authorities and the mayors themselves are now integral to the delivery of housing policy, to urban planning and regional economic development.

Doing so without much of a stake in local rail networks is to proceed with one arm tied behind their backs. Authorities need to be sufficiently empowered in relation to Great British Railways to get on and demonstrate that they deserve greater scope to plan transport alongside other policy areas, strategically aligning rail corridors and house building. For example, Great British Rail cannot inhibit this kind of common sense approach in the way that Network Rail sometimes has. In the past, Great British Rail and our local rail networks must work in lockstep with spatial plans and with the changes we see across our communities.

That is the only way that we ensure benefits for the peripheral towns, as much as the hearts of our city centres, and we need to think about the future too. We can never say with certainty how committed a future government may be to devolution, and I therefore believe that this Bill must enshrine within it a robust partnership duty to ensure that our mayoral authorities have a decisive role in commissioning services, shaping specifications, influencing fares and performance outcomes. We cannot simply rely on a duty to consult.

Local transport. Plans are critical here too. As the Bill stands, Great British Rail should have regard to local transport plans. These plans are forward looking. Multiyear plans developed by local transport authorities, each with a statutory basis that promotes safe, integrated, reliable and sustainable local transport policy. Simply having regard to them could lead to rail policy being delivered entirely by Great British Rail in a silo and in isolation from wider, place based policy. And I do appreciate that we are planning a national rail network.

But this must not run roughshod over local economic and transport priorities. I would therefore urge the Minister and the government to consider revising the language within clause 16 from have regard to to act in accordance with, and I know that in response to the Select Committee's report on this matter, the government's view was clear that the current language is sufficient, but I am keen to stress that this bill is not just about the next few years, but the next few decades. We need to set an irreversible course for sustained devolution, and doing so means GBR, not just regarding those plans, but fully aligning with them.

And I would welcome the minister's remarks on this topic. In closing, Madam Deputy Speaker, I offer my full support for this crucial legislation, and I would like to thank the government for their continued engagement. Our regional leaders have an invaluable contribution to make in engaging with GBR, and I believe that for this to be realised, we need to move beyond notions of consultation and instead towards equal and productive partnerships. Between my oral strategic authorities and our rail networks. New guiding mind.

That means making train travel and other forms of public transport better for passengers across the country, irrespective of where that may be ultimately driving economic growth. And this ambition must be what guides us going forward. And it's how passengers nationwide will come to judge what we are doing here today.

16:58

Ann Davies MP (Caerfyrddin, Plaid Cymru)

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And. >> Madam Chair, I rise to speak on behalf of new clauses ten, 12 and 13, which have been placed in my name. But before I start, can I name. But before I start, can I sincerely thank the Minister for meeting with me. A few weeks ago. The dialogue was constructive and welcomed, and I really hope that the Ministers take a leaf out of his book and reach the arm and reach forward towards across the floor, in order that we can have dialogue in moving forward with legislation, a new class ten would devolve rail powers in Wales to the Welsh Government and, crucially, devolve the funding that goes along with it.

The current system, where one government controls trains and another controls the track, simply through the full devolution of rail infrastructure and the people of Wales support this. The new Plaid Cymru Welsh Government was elected on a commitment to devolve rail. As is already the case in Scotland. Devolution. Devolution would finally unlock the investment Wales has been denied and end the injustice of Welsh taxpayers. Funding England only projects such as H. S two Oxford. Cambridge, which is nowhere near Wales, and the Northern Powerhouse Rail again nowhere near Wales.

Let's be frank about it. Hitches to a loan deprives Wales of nearly £6 billion. Network Rail's funding and planning remain reserved to Westminster, unlike Scotland. And meanwhile, the Welsh Government receives no dedicated Budget for rail enhancement, despite, in fairness, investing over 1.3 billion in the South Wales metro. Money which was diverted from essential issues such as health and education services. Because the Wales Block Grant provides nothing for rail. New clause 12 addresses this historic underfunding.

Wales has received just 1 to 2% of enhancement funding, despite having 11% of the UK network, and the UK government repeatedly claims that it is investing 14 billion in Welsh Rail. But I'm afraid that this is simply not the case. It's an unfunded pledge, it's a wish list. It's a hope for. And when I ask the Department of Transport in a written question whether the Treasury had guaranteed this funding, the answer is no. So even the government's own figures are inconsistent.

Ministers speak of a 14 billion plan, yet Transport for Wales estimates the pipeline of projects the UK government says it would support would cost around 10 billion. And let's look at the facts about what actual money has been committed. So far we've had 445 million committed over ten years. No guarantees of further funding, 445 million is £44.5 million per year. And each of our local governments has a far bigger Budget than that which they run on local services.

So let's put this into perspective. We need an urgent step, a change step in funding for Wales to deliver the railway investment that we need, and I hope UK government will work constructively with the Welsh Government to deliver this. I'm afraid commitments on paper mean nothing without the funding that makes them real. And the new Welsh Deputy Minister for transport has already reached out to the UK government on this issue and I hope, and I'm sure that the Minister will respond positively to this.

And the last clause issued in my name was New Clause 13. And if this concerns rural investment, the 445 million mainly concerns with new stations in the east of Wales, rural communities, particularly in the West, have been overlooked for generations. In my constituency of the case for reopening, Sinclair Station is well established, as is the need to improve links towards Pembrokeshire, which I know my hon. Friends from Preseli Mid and South Pembrokeshire, along with myself, have been pressing for this clause would require a clear plan to ensure projects such as these merit consideration and that rural Wales rural West Wales finally receives

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its fair share of funding. Thank you. Now, in order to make sure I get

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Now, in order to make sure I get all colleagues in, I'm introducing an immediate four minute time limit. Navendu Mishra.

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Navendu Mishra. Thank you, madam. Madam Speaker, can I thank all railway staff at stations across Stockport, not only in my constituency but neighbouring constituencies too? Can I also declare an interest in terms of donations from trade unions to my donations from trade unions to my constituency Labour Party? The British Transport Police recorded a 5% increase in crime in 12 months leading up to June 2025, including rise in violence and sexual offences, leading to claims of an epidemic of violence. They're

17:03

Navendu Mishra MP (Stockport, Labour)

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facing an £8.5 million funding shortfall this financial year, and I agree with my friend from York I agree with my friend from York Central that we have a duty in this House to keep passengers and staff safe, so can I urge the government safe, so can I urge the government to ensure that proper, adequate funding is allocated for BTP? I also want to echo the points made also want to echo the points made by my friend from Hayes and Harlington in terms of outsourcing.

Outsourcing is embedding systemic racism on parts of the railway network, where outsourced workers are disproportionately from ethnic minority background. As I said earlier in my intervention, I think minority workers represent 25% of the directly employed train operating company workforce, but that figure is just under 60% when it comes to outsourced cleaners and caterers. The outsourcing model is driven by employers taking on workers, on precarious contracts, on poor terms and conditions such as inadequate sick pay and pensions compared to directly employed workers.

Outsourced workers typically have no travel facilities, but I think many in the House will be aware that if you're a chief executive of a private train company, you have excellent terms, conditions, benefits and travel facilities. GBR should tackle these outsourced contracts and the poor terms and conditions these people are on. Everyone deserves fair pay and treatment as well as dignity at work. Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of open access services, the workers do a great job that work for open access railway companies.

However, open access injects unnecessary complexity and fragmentation into operations. Also, open access operators cherry pick the most profitable routes on our network. My view is that no further open access contracts or extensions should be granted, and that existing services and jobs should be absorbed into GBR at the earliest opportunity. This is not a joke, Madam Speaker, but Reddish South train station in my constituency has one train per week. It's just absolutely ridiculous. Proper passenger services must be restored at Reddish South train station.

I want to pay tribute to the Friends of Reddish South Station, who do such important work. In my patch, and in the last reporting period, only 102 passengers used that train station in an entire year. So we need to make sure that as we move, move on with modernizing our railway system, that reddish south is not left behind and train stations have proper services. I was supporting the now withdrawn amendment NC 16, tabled by my friend from Montgomeryshire, which would require GBR to establish a department to look at options to increase service to underserved places.

Can I also invite the Minister to visit Reddish South? I know Lord Hendy made a visit to my constituency last year, but it was short notice and he didn't have a chance to go to South. So I'd like to invite the Minister and Lord Hendy to to to my constituency specifically to meet the Friends of Reddish South. Just a quick point on disabled access. Access for all scheme is a good scheme, but it's far too slow. Nathaniel is a constituent of mine, has done so much work over the years to improve disabled access for all.

But accessibility at train stations in the north is poor, with less than half of all stations having step free access. We need to make sure that more people are not excluded for from from our railways, people with mobility issues, people with underlying health conditions, people with with heavy luggage. And I'm supporting amendments 29 and 33 tabled by the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire, which aim to protect and promote the rights of disabled passengers. Can I just end on the point that on privatisation, rolling stock companies are rinsing the taxpayer? I think these companies should be brought in-house, and Great British Railway GBR should create its own rolling stock procurement team to stop taxpayers being being taken advantage of.

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Vicki Slade thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a child. Growing up. Alongside

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Growing up. Alongside complaining about the weather, a general complaint was about the state of railways. The United. Most state of railways. The United. Most people. Thankfully, the days of the cardboard British Rail sandwich is long gone, but I regret to say that a general dissatisfaction with the a general dissatisfaction with the railway experience in my part of the world remains, which is why I welcomed the Railways Bill and the

17:07

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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welcomed the Railways Bill and the creation of Great British Railways and was optimistic about the renationalisation of South Western Railway, which covers my constituency of Mid Dorset and North Pole. But I regret that the reliability of that service and the experience of my constituents is, if anything, worse than a year ago. I now no longer tell my family to collect me at the scheduled arrival time and call ahead to so regular of the delays, and my resident James, who travelled from where and to London for 50 years, said the service has never been so poor that it is not a pleasant experience.

This is why I have no hesitation in supporting NC one. In the name of my hon. Friend for a member of Didcot and Wantage that would create a passenger charter, it should not be too much to ask for Wi-Fi that works. Access to a drink or snack on a long journey, clean toilets and a guaranteed seat. And for those with disabilities, bikes and prams to be able to get on and off a train and be able to put their luggage or equipment on board.

I also support NC six with a particular reference to fares for children, which was raised by students of Purbeck School that I visited last year. More than half of them do not stay on for sixth form accessing colleges in Poole, Bournemouth, Weymouth and Brockenhurst. Now we all consider children to be children until they're 18, but not the rail companies who consider that childhood stops at 15. I presume this dates back to when we left school at 16, but we're more civilised now, and it's outrageous that a 16 year old is considered an adult.

So regardless of this bill, please fix this. Madam Deputy Speaker, my new clause 11 is about reducing bike thefts linked to the railways. Until February this year, bike thefts were not investigated where they've been left for more than two hours, which is a ridiculous position bearing in mind most people are going to school out for the day or to work and staying for more than two hours. This change that now allows those bike thefts caught on CCTV, CCTV to be investigated is great, but in small rural stations like mine at Holton Heath, we don't have any CCTV so we should be preventing the bike thefts in the first place.

Over 4000 bikes were stolen from railway stations in 2024, so a modest requirement for secure cycle storage alongside car parking or on platforms of smaller stations seems only reasonable. Now, I did ask SWR to do this voluntarily, but they've refused, so my only option is a new clause in this bill which would provide passengers with security, peace of mind, but also help reduce the need to drive to stations and support the railway's role in in carbon reduction. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is the opportunity to take the railway to more people, which is why I support amendment 55.

In the name of my hon. Friend from Glastonbury and Somerton and I believe the now withdrawn NC 16. In the name of the hon. Member of Montgomeryshire and Glendale in Dorset, we have a huge opportunity to revolutionise rail use through Dorset Metro, which could increase train frequency across the local area from where I am to Christchurch and create potential new stations or halts to take the strain from the heavily congested roads. And for areas where there is no railway opportunity to be restored due to housing development.

Turning rails to trails at NC five is a great opportunity. I have the fantastic Casselman Railway running through the heart of my constituency, but at Corfe Mullen it abruptly stops as it reaches the A 31 and there's a missed opportunity to connect the communities on both sides of the community. Madam Deputy Speaker, if we're going to let the train take the strain, it must be reliable, affordable and safe. My constituent Adam says that as it stands, he's considering moving elsewhere as travel is such a problem.

Whilst the bill is a good step, I am not sure that we can currently call it the Great British Railway, and I hope that the Minister will do better to take more of these

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amendments to allow it to be great again. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm really proud to be part of and I'm really proud to be part of a Labour government taking the railways back into public control after decades of privatisation after decades of privatisation failure. I wish to speak to amendment 50 in my name, which would ensure that all great British would ensure that all great British Rail products are available from ticket offices, bringing an end to the practice by some operators of the practice by some operators of making certain fares, particularly discounted fares, available only online.

And this practice significantly disadvantages those who cannot access digital ticketing, including many disabled and older passengers, and it also discriminates against those on low incomes who can't necessarily afford a small a smartphone or consistent internet access, and the government would give way.

17:12

Cat Eccles MP (Stourbridge, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. She was talking about the importance of railway accessibility there, and I wish to put on record, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have been advised to do by the public Bill office and the clerks that my name has been mistakenly added to the following new clauses on this bill new clauses 22, 59, 60, 61 and 62. The new clause that my name is correctly being added to is New Clause 23, which is about

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railway accessibility. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The government is absolutely right to simplify retail under a unified to simplify retail under a unified Great British Rail offer, but that offer must be available to everybody, not just those who can navigate digital platforms. Accessibility accessibility must be designed in from the start and not designed in from the start and not added as an afterthought. So I hope the Minister can commit to ensuring that every fare and discount available online will also be available through ticket offices and assisted channels, so nobody is excluded.

Amendments 51 and 52 in my name seek to confirm the existing process whereby ticket offices and staffing levels are regulated and any proposed changes will be subject to consultation overseen by the passenger watchdog. These amendments would formalise this by placing this process on the face of the Bill, ensuring the current process is retained by Great British Rail. Madam Deputy Speaker, the previous government attempted to close around 1000 ticket offices around the country, and they were forced to U-turn after considerable opposition in Stourbridge alongside the RMT and George the Station Cat, I run the biggest campaign to save ticket offices in the country, and public opinion was overwhelmingly in favour of saving ticket offices, as they provide such a vital services to communities.

Ticket offices were saved due to something called schedule 17 of Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, where ticket offices can only be closed, subject to consultation and during the consultation process. A few years ago, it became very clear that the public would not tolerate any closures. So while this government would not be so shortsighted as to try and strip communities of these important ticket offices, we must future proof the legislation. And the amendment is consistent with the government's commitment to strengthen passenger watchdog and passengers voices under GBR, so I hope the Minister can give assurances to the House that GBR will retain the current process, ensuring consultation with rail users before any changes are made to opening hours or propose proposed closures of ticket offices.

I did plan to speak in favour of new clause 16, which I believe is now withdrawn by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomery and Glendale, which would give us the opportunity to reopen closed lines and restore connections to ensure no community is left behind in my constituency. The proposed Stourbridge dash service to Brierley Hill demonstrates exactly what can be achieved by making smarter use of the infrastructure we already have put forward by local light rail company Pre-metro.

It would link Stourbridge and Brierley Hill along a corridor currently plagued by heavy traffic congestion and very few viable road improvement options. By bringing existing freight track back into use for passenger services, as it would have been before the Beeching cuts. And there are hundreds of similar examples of that up and down the country, where existing rail line remains that could be used to restore connections and ensure communities are no longer held back by poor connectivity. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to speak in favour of new clause 45 tabled by my hon.

Friend for Paul, the privatisation of British Rail in 1994 was an unmitigated disaster and left passengers facing some of the highest fares across Europe, with persistent issues with service, reliability and quality. And while railways, by their very nature are a monopoly, they should never have been fragmented and placed into private hands and should be under public ownership and accountable control. And that principle should expand to rolling stock. In 2023 alone, private train leasing companies made over 400 million in profits and through public ownership should mean the Railways bill, bringing rolling stock under Great British Railways and passing those savings on to passengers.

So finally, I won't be pressing any of my amendments to a vote, but I trust the Minister and the rail Minister and the other place will take these matters into account. And I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister in his place for taking this action today. Brian. Matthew.

17:17

Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, we all in >> Madam Deputy Speaker, we all in this place recognise the transformative role that railways can play in creating better can play in creating better connected places and driving the economic growth of our communities economic growth of our communities and our country needs. Yet in counties like Wiltshire, that potential remains largely unrealised. In Wiltshire we have an extensive network of existing railway lines, but they remain primarily geared towards ferrying passengers and freight across the county.

Rather than providing a service residents can rely on in the county for local commuting, business and leisure travel. Thanks to tireless local campaigning, Melksham saw a significant uplift in its rail service back in 2013, but with an average of just one train for every two hours, the service remains too intermittent to meet the needs of a town experiencing rapid population growth. Meanwhile, a 20 mile station stretch of line runs between Westbury and Pewsey, passing within three miles of Devizes, but with no railway access for over 3000 people living at the heart of Wiltshire, which is holding back the area's economy, the railway Bill acknowledges the importance of local and regional rail, requiring GBR to align decisions with local transport strategies.

But by making mayoral strategic authorities the sole vehicle for this new cooperation, the bill leaves some 60% of England's population not yet covered, and thus, without the tools to harness Rail's potential. If the government's committed to sustainable housing growth, town centre regeneration, access to jobs, education and decarbonisation, the Railways Bill must go much further in enabling local rail. Metro ization of our railways is not just for large cities. Counties like Cornwall and Northumberland are already demonstrating how more frequent and reliable rail can transform rural economies.

The government needs to ensure that market towns such as Melksham and Devizes are not left behind in economic development and can benefit from the rail network. The creation of GBR must also be accompanied by brand new a brand new passenger's charter. If we want more passengers to choose rail over road, we must tackle issues such as overpriced tickets, overcrowded carriages with poor Wi-Fi and little or no catering. I urge the government to accept the amendments NC one and NC 58 to the bill and set a new bar for value for money, accessibility and passenger comfort in our new Great British Railways.

Thank you.

17:20

Julia Buckley MP (Shrewsbury, Labour)

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Yeah. both here and in the other place, for their hard work and engagement on this important bill, and I will focus my comments in favor of focus my comments in favor of amendment NC 16. That Great British Railways can't come soon enough for Railways can't come soon enough for places like my constituency of Shrewsbury and a privatisation. Our geography has penalised us as we sit on the edge of everyone's maps between regional operators serving either Wales or Birmingham, leaving us underinvested and underserved.

And as members of this House may recall, I have mentioned it quite a few times now. Shropshire remains the only county without a direct train to London, but the value of this direct service is not just the obvious economic boost for jobs, education and tourism. All the improved accessibility of avoiding step heavy connections, but also for the important investment in infrastructure that would intercity services could unlock at our station. We need more frequent and reliable regional services, with much more capacity to cope with the vast demand for services.

For a county town of 70,000 residents. For example, when our local university campus closed last year, students now have to travel beyond Shrewsbury in order to access education, training and employment. So for these reasons, I'm pleased to put my name in support of five amendments, including new clause 16, which calls for the reopening of services to underserved areas. This clause calls for GBR to establish a department for the purpose of identifying areas underserved and underserved by railway services, and to assess passenger and community needs for adding services, routes or stations where they are missing.

It's crucial that the full opportunities of this new integrated nationalised railway are felt across the whole country by improving service levels in underserved and often rural areas like Shropshire, not just adding increased frequency for already well-served cities. Just last month, Deputy Speaker, you will recall I stood in this very place to present a petition signed by over ten 000 fare paying passengers asking this government to recognise the demand for a direct train service at Shrewsbury and to approve those extra routes to London.

As we stand together on the cusp of nationalising our rail system, we must ensure that this mantra of people before profit becomes a reality. In places like Shrewsbury, where investment has been lacking, let's take this opportunity to rebuild where services have withered away. Let's deliver for our communities and where towns have been left behind. Let's reconnect them. In short, Madam Deputy Speaker, let's show in deeds, not words, how great British

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Railways will deliver more services for more places like Shrewsbury. Yeah. Monica Harding.

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Monica Harding. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise in support of new clause one, the passenger's charter, new clause the passenger's charter, new clause three tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Didcot, and wanted am I Member for Didcot, and wanted am I on new clause 60, which addresses issues of reliability, accessibility and refurbishment. All seven of my railway stations in Milton are under the stewardship of Southwestern Railway, making our constituency one of the first to experience the transition to public ownership.

And there are significant reliability challenges. The latest performance figures show that in March, 3% of all services were cancelled and only 65% of services arrived on time, meaning

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more than 1 in 3 trains fail to to. On that point, will you. I thank

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you. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way just on Southwest Rail. I've got statistics here for I've got statistics here for Worcester Park Station, which also served by Southwest Rail. And in the very last period before nationalisation, which was period 22526, the figures for punctuality

17:23

Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)

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22526, the figures for punctuality was 89.3%, which is still not good enough at 1% cancellations in all the periods since then, the performance has been worse. Under nationalisation every single period, Worcester Park has seen a worse service. So does she agree with me that my hon. Friend agree with me that our residents, particularly those of Worcester Park, don't care if a train turns up wrapped in a Union flag. They care about whether that train is on time and whether it's not cancelled.

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They 100% do care and that is why we should support new clause one. But it would also help if one. But it would also help if constituents could access the railway in the first place. Investment in making stations accessible for all needs to be at accessible for all needs to be at the very heart of the programme of rail reform. A Hersham and Hinchley wood stations are two stations in wood stations are two stations in my constituency that are completely without any step free access, while Walton, Claygate, Esher and don't Walton, Claygate, Esher and don't only have partial step free access.

And that is why I have tabled a new clause 60 requiring Great British Railways to undertake and publish an assessment of the accessibility barriers at Hersham and Hinchley wood stations, and I'm pleased to support new clause two, which does the same, requiring the Secretary of State to publish an accessibility strategy for the railway network. And that brings me to Hersham station, because accessibility failures there sit alongside something much more fundamental, which new clause three would support. Hersham supports around 700,000 passengers every year, and one of the busiest rail corridors in the country, and the constituents that contributes more to the exchequer than any constituency outside of London.

Thousands of people pass through that station every week to run businesses, create jobs and drive economic growth, and that state of that station is an affront to every single one of them. It is an eyesore, ramshackle, neglected mould climbs the fence lines, the paintwork is peeling and the station sits under exposed corrugated iron roofing. More seriously, both platforms were built in the 1960s using materials that were only ever intended to be temporary, and more than half a century later, they are still there.

Groups of schoolchildren step off the train and put their foot through the platform. Constituents have repeatedly raised safety concerns that the stairs visibly move beneath their their their feet, and these passengers are not asking for luxury. They are asking for a station that is safe. And there is nothing in this bill that will give my residents in Hersham a station that they can be proud of. I therefore urge the Minister to look seriously at new clause three, tabled by my hon.

Friend, which would establish a Tomorrow's Railway Fund, enabling local authorities to bid for funding for new stations, infrastructure and feasibility studies. This is exactly the kind of mechanism that stations and wealth creators in Hersham need. Madam Deputy Speaker, all my constituents are asking for trains that run on time stations that they can actually get into and infrastructure that is safe to use. Performance, accessibility, condition are not separate issues. They are three sides of the same failure, and this bill must address all three.

I urge the Minister to accept these amendments and to show

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that Great British Railways will finally deliver a railway worthy of day. Amen.

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Steve Witherden. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Bill is a necessary and long The Bill is a necessary and long overdue step towards bringing our railways back into public ownership. railways back into public ownership. Great British Railways represents a real opportunity to build a railway that works in the interests of passengers and staff, rather than profiteering companies and shareholders. For railway workers, the transition to GBR must be an opportunity to strengthen good, secure and unionised jobs across the sector.

Rail staff are the backbone of the network, whether they work on trains, in stations, on signalling, engineering or maintenance. They keep this country moving every single day. I also want to commend the work of campaign groups such as We Own It, alongside the rail unions RMT, T S, S A and Aslef for their long standing commitment to the renationalisation of our railways, working constructively with trade unions will be vital if GBR is to succeed. A publicly owned railway must also be a railway built on a partnership with its workforce.

The transport unions have raised a number of concerns that the government should address. Tens of

17:28

Steve Witherden MP (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr, Labour)

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thousands of rail workers still do not know who exactly their future employer will be under GBR, nor do they know what the pension arrangements are that will apply to them. There are also real fears them. There are also real fears about potential job losses linked to the transition. Around 870 to the transition. Around 870 Network Rail staff are reportedly at risk of redundancy. I am concerned at de-recognition of concerned at de-recognition of trade unions during the transfer from Network Rail into its wholly owned public subsidiary platform, for a fundamental principle of the transition from private to public ownership should be that every workplace within GBR recognises trade unions.

My now withdrawn new clause largely spoke to Beeching. The Beeching cuts, now widely recognised as a significant failure, saw the closure of up to 2363 stations and approximately 5000 miles of track and severed vital links for many communities, causing lasting damage to local economies. This is felt all too acutely in Montgomeryshire and Glyndwr, where we have a huge gap between Kayasthas and the longest in the whole of Wales. Without a station, my NC aimed to establish a dedicated function with a duty to identify opportunities to expand rail services in a cost effective and efficient way to underserved and unserved areas across the UK.

But as my right hon. Friend has pointed out, other avenues do exist through which hon. Members and community groups can pursue the re-opening of closed stations. I can echo the sentiments expressed by the hon. Lady on the readiness of my right hon. Friend to engage in meaningful and constructive way.

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I thank the hon. Member for giving way, and he is giving a really impassioned speech about areas that are underserved by rail connections. And my constituency of North Cornwall is one of those that doesn't have a single mainline doesn't have a single mainline station within it. Despite being the largest by land constituency in Cornwall. And he mentioned the Cornwall. And he mentioned the Beeching cuts. Unfortunately, the North Cornwall rail line was a victim of those. Does he though. Question the Minister that sat here today how this bill is going to help areas like ours bring back those vital rail links? We've seen initiatives like Kernow Connect, which could connect my North Cornwall constituency at Launceston potentially.

But does he agree that this bill doesn't go far enough in that regard?

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Thank you. Can I can I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I hon. Member for his intervention. I think he serves a very similar constituency to mine, very large, constituency to mine, very large, very rural. Getting these stations open in these areas are incredibly important. I would urge the hon. important. I would urge the hon. Member to work closely with community groups, as I'm sure he is already, and as I am doing to make you know what I'm trying to get done in Mid and North Wales, a possibility in Cornwall as well, and I thank him again for his intervention in concluding.

Great British Railways presents a once in a generation opportunity to rebuild our railways and create a service that works for the public good, rather than private profit. Workers must not be sidelined. Jobs, pensions and trade union rights must be protected. Passengers must see genuine improvements in

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affordability and reliability. Ken Kraft. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This bill represents a once in a generation chance to create a simpler, more simpler, more accountable railway. And I'm really pleased that C2-c, which runs in Thurrock, was one of the first operators to come under public ownership. I look forward to the reversal of 30 years of privatisation, where we've seen fragmentation, outsourcing and a dangerous lack of investment in infrastructure, nationalisation and the establishment of Great British Rail allows us to protect the long term future of our railways, putting passengers not profit first.

But when we commit to putting passengers. All passengers. That's why I'd like to express my strong support for amendment 70 and 71, proposed by the chair of the Transport Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth. Last year, the Transport Committee released a worrying report on access to public

17:33

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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transport by disabled people. The committee estimated that more than one third of disabled people were

17:33

Steve Witherden MP (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr, Labour)

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one third of disabled people were regularly avoiding travel, because they believed it would be too complicated to unsafe, or things

17:33

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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complicated to unsafe, or things would be too likely to go wrong. These amendments would require a commitment from Great British Rail and the proposed passenger Council to not simply consider the interests of disabled users, but to carry out their responsibility responsibilities in a way that actively promotes their interests. Accessibility must not be viewed through the same lens as customer service, where minor delays or engineering faults are considered irritating. But unfortunately, normal accessibility failures should be incredibly rare, and failures to meet standards should be regarded as a serious infraction

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of people's rights. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and she's making some really important points about really important points about railway accessibility. That is also an issue for my constituents, particularly at the railway particularly at the railway stations in Burntisland, Cowdenbeath and Kinghorn. That is why I added my name to New Clause why I added my name to New Clause 23 on this bill, which would have ensured a strategy to ensure full

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railway accessibility across the country Within the next ten years. We have been waiting far too long for

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our railways to be accessible, and we need action now. Thank you, and I very much thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. my hon. Friend for her intervention. I completely agree with her that we've been waiting since the inception. I think of railways for them to be accessible. As anyone them to be accessible. As anyone who, like me, is a bit of a rail geek and enjoys a trip on a steam train of a weekend, well know the train of a weekend, well know the past railways were not designed with access for all in mind, and we can and we must do better.

If you can and we must do better. If you are a real chair user who travels regularly on the train and the lift breaks overnight, you might find yourself in a position where you can't, for example, travel to work or school or visit family, or you can't get to your local hospital. It's not inconvenient. It is unacceptable. The lifts are currently out of service at Tilbury in my constituency, and the solution that that is being offered is for people to travel on to the next stop, change trains, go round and come back.

It's completely and utterly unacceptable, and this sentiment is not reflected in the way that we talk, currently, talk or think about service provision for disabled people. We urgently need a change of mindset, recognising that accessibility is a non-negotiable matter. It is the bare minimum and at my local station in Grays, we have been waiting for operational lifts for years and Sea to Sea received a grant under the access for all scheme, but the lifts have been a categorical failure. It is the fourth most used station in the East of England.

It's a busy transport hub and it should have the proper infrastructure. The lights were initially promised for late 2024. They were not delivered until August 2025. They didn't work. They have never worked. They frequently break down. And finally, due to quite a lot of persistence from myself, they are now being torn out and replaced. But this has had a significant impact on my disabled constituents. And one woman told me that she was trapped in a lift for 35 minutes and had to be removed by firefighters.

Someone else told me that her husband is reluctant to use the station because he has COPD and struggles with stairs, and it's just such a shame that these brand new lifts that have been promised under an access scheme are out of order so very often. So I'm very pleased that this bill will bring Network Rail, who are responsible for providing and servicing, and now replacing these lifts into Great British Rail. And it's absolutely right that the organisation becomes part of a unified, publicly owned body that is accountable to all of the passengers who rely on it.

And I'm hopeful that this added accountability will help foster genuine progress on accessibility, particularly if the. I will give way.

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The hon. Lady. I wondered if I could just give her a little bit of an update from my own constituency. an update from my own constituency. A year on from South Western Railways, nationalisation, their performance metrics continue to performance metrics continue to fall. My constituents commuting from Portsmouth or Fareham have can expect that one in every three journeys will be late. It's not a good sign for the government's good sign for the government's nationalisation plans, especially as this GBR are now marking their own homework.

The trains are dirty, they are overcrowded and you're very lucky if you find Wi-Fi that works. That's the lesson that we've learned from the government's

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nationalisation so far. Well, I do thank the hon. Member for her intervention. I find it quite unusual as having travelled on privatised trains for a number of years, the issues with dirty, of years, the issues with dirty, unreliable trains are something that I'm very, very familiar with. And GBR finally allows rail and the And GBR finally allows rail and the networks to be united to enable to finally turn these things around and deliver a rail network that delivers for all who use it and puts people over profit, which is absolutely fantastic.

But as I was saying, it's absolutely crucial that there is accountability in the rail service. And if amendments 70 and 71 are given proper consideration, we can really see a turning point on how disabled people who regularly use the rail network are viewed. We have to consistently get the basics right. We need lifts that work, ramps of railings, staff on hand to help people on and off the trains. And we need things to be reliably available. And with Great British British Rail, we have the potential to use the power of procurement as well to have trains that are fully designed to meet the needs of all passengers, and not just as they have been in the past.

Designed around one bloke with a briefcase travelling to and from the office. In the modern world, so many different people use the train and we have an opportunity to have a rail network that services all who use it. With Great British Rail. We also have an opportunity to go further still, to be more innovative and forward thinking in our efforts to support disabled passengers. And I'd just like to give a shout out to Rail Scape, a business operating locally to me, who have been developing an interactive model which allows particularly neurodiverse people to look around the station ahead of time.

So when they are looking at getting into the workforce and travelling to work, a huge barrier is anxiety about how to navigate a rail station, where the ticket barriers are, where to buy a ticket, etc. and this allows them to plan ahead of their visit and see where they're going. I hope this is the sort of work that Great British Rail will encourage and incorporate, and it's a fantastic example of how actively promoting the interests of disabled people is.

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Amanda Martin. Madam Deputy Speaker, I draw the House to mine and my local party's House to mine and my local party's interest. Madam Deputy Speaker, for decades, my constituents have been dealing with the consequence of the failed experiment of privatisation failed experiment of privatisation of our railways. This bill begins to put that right. At its heart, the creation of Great British Rail, a single, publicly owned body focused not only on shareholders but on the people who use the railways day in and day out.

railways day in and day out. Importantly, Government amendment 92 will ensure the benefits of nationalisation are felt by passion for decades to come. It prevents future Ministers undoing this progress and dragging our railways back into the chaos and fragmentation of the past. My gramps was a train driver and my amazing Auntie Michelle. Michelle

17:39

Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)

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Nolan McSweeney has dedicated her career to the railway. So this bill is personal to me. I know the pride is personal to me. I know the pride that hardworking rail workers take in what they do. I they want to deliver a quality service for their passengers, but have been failed by passengers, but have been failed by a system which puts profit above people. For too long our rail has been broken up into pieces. Pieces been broken up into pieces. Pieces of track, pieces of train, pieces of operation, all working under different initiatives.

That fragmentation has made it harder to plan properly, harder to invest and harder to deliver for the railways that passengers deserve. A railway works best when it's treated as one. We need the people running the trains, managing the infrastructure and making the investment decisions, working together and not pulling in different directions. Every pound generated by our railway should be focused on improving our railway network and supporting development here in the UK, and not flowing out to private interest or being used to support railways elsewhere.

We have seen under privatisation that some of the companies operating our rail services have been owned by overseas interests, including state linked rail companies from other countries. That means money from UK passengers has had time to help support transport systems and prioritise over their own country. Our our railway should be an asset that strengthens the UK economy, the fares passengers pay and the value created by our network should help fund better services, better infrastructure and better connections for communities here in Britain.

We can see from across Europe that a more coordinated approach can deliver better infrastructure. Strong infrastructure is not just about trains, it's about jobs, housing, businesses and opportunity. And Madam Deputy Speaker, we are beginning to see what a different approach can achieve. Last year, Southern West Southwest Rail became the first railway company under public ownership. At the end of last month, Southern Rail followed public owners. Ownership operators are performing better on average punctually and cancellations, as opposed to those still in private ownership such as Avanti, who was referred to by the opposition Minister who, yes, have cut services but still remain owned by private companies.

First Group and Trenitalia, who are owned by Italian State Railway. Under public ownership, Southwest Railway has accelerated its plans for trains and improved driver training, increased capacity and creating more spaces on routes into London. They're also providing a connection and information to local bus and ferry and transport services to join up the systems locally, and Southern Rail's new publicly owned operator has committed to practical improvement to include giving passengers direct access. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is welcome, but we must also make sure that these promises are properly challenged and scrutinised.

Passengers need improvements they can feel every day value for money, tickets, reliable information, better customer services and better access. And the basics that people accept, such as decent Wi-Fi and connections on their journey. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, these improvements matter locally in Portsmouth North for passengers using stations such as Hilsea and Cosham, the railway is not abstract. It is a part of everyday life. It's about getting to work. It's about getting your kids to school and college and staying connected with communities.

And I look forward to continued working with Great British Rail to ensure that these stations have full accessibility, full safety and extended facilities. This bill is about bringing the railways back together, about simplifying the system that has become too complex, too fragmented and too difficult to navigate. And the amendment 92 secures this into the future. I am proud to support the government's mission to keep Great British Rail in public

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ownership, and to ensure that the repeated. Alison Taylor.

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Alison Taylor. Deputy Speaker Railways are critical for many of my constituents and I am pleased to speak to the amendments proposed by speak to the amendments proposed by the government today, particularly to ensure nationalisation fully proceeds with no scope for future partial privatisation through the back door. I welcome this government's focus on railways as, frustratingly, only part of my constituency is served by rail. The major towns of Renfrew, Erskine and Inchinnan are railway deserts right now, having to rely on road networks.

Since privatisation in 1997, the railway connections have felt more fragmented. As a regular traveller southward, I understand, as this Bill provides the importance that parts of the system work together and that the integrated transportation that and that integrated transportation is currently lacking. The strategic planning that underlies this legislation. Integrating track ownership, infrastructure management and service and procurement in the formation of Great British Railways will increasingly pay off. Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome the provisions of this legislation to allow Scottish Ministers to contribute to this broader strategic planning for the railway system and for the new technical amendments around the transfer of staff under Tupi, which is essential for a smooth transition.

I am also encouraged by the inclusion of rail freight in the bill. In my constituency, a family run business rustles with a massive distribution depot in Hillington Park, make significant use of rail for freight distribution already, and is looking to recommission the existing railway track from Hillington to get it operational.

17:45

Alison Taylor MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Labour)

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Once again. I am very keen to explore how I can support Russell's aim to transport goods by rail aim to transport goods by rail freight all the way from Hillington to the centre of Europe. The advantage of transporting rail by freight, freight by rail has been particularly relevant recently, when the M8 motorway has been when the M8 motorway has been subject to long standing structural repairs. Rail currently carries repairs. Rail currently carries only about 7% of rail freight, and with a European average of 19%.

And if the UK were to match the European average of 19%, it would remove millions of heavy goods vehicles and cut carbon emissions, while also improving road congestion. Hon. Members may have also picked up that. I have been long an advocate for improving rail infrastructure in my own constituency of Paisley and Renfrewshire North, which houses an important. Strategic connection in Glasgow Airport and I hope that the establishment of Great British Railways will help establish this local goal. It is a source of considerable frustration for my constituents that they can take a train to Manchester Airport, but not to Glasgow Airport, which lies just over a mile from Paisley Gilmer Street station.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe there is a very strong case for a rail link within my constituency, and I look forward to making the case in the context of a more strategic approach to railways that the government's amendments seek to bring. Thank you.

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Minister. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. With leave the House, I would like to thank all House, I would like to thank all the honourable and right hon. Members for their contributions today. And while it will not be possible for me to address every possible for me to address every amendment, I will try to discuss the topics raised by hon. Members and do my very best to do them justice. I would like to turn first to amendments which are not covered by the Bill as drafted.

New clauses by the Bill as drafted. New clauses 11, 18 and 46 and amendments 56 and 57, which focus on safety and safeguarding. It is essential that staff and passengers on the railway are safe. We recently announced the new Safer Railway scheme to tackle low level crime, antisocial behaviour and violence against women and girls. Services will all be accredited by the scheme. Exactly as the Member for Crewe and Nantwich Amendment suggests. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising awareness on behalf of his charity, the Railway Children, and I hope he was pleased to see the announcement which addresses his amendment.

I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for York Central that we should do everything we can to keep our staff safe, and I will be monitoring how the new assault against a retail worker offence impacts safety across the sector. I agree that her suggestion to gather more evidence, for example, via a call for evidence, would be a sensible next step if further action is warranted. For now, the strongest evidence shows that body worn cameras and conflict prevention training deliver the most immediate improvements in staff safety by deterring, offending and providing evidence to support effective prosecution.

To turn next. Madam Deputy Speaker to Workforce GB's success will be built on the effectiveness of that workforce. Amendments 35, 36 and 64. A new clause is 19, 21, 26, 27, 34 and 54 are on this topic. I also note the related early day motion. I can confirm that there are already provisions in the Railways Bill, which enables staff transfer into GBR on Tupe principles, ensuring employment rights are protected as they should be. It is essential that we give security to staff who may be affected by this transition, and am therefore happy to confirm for my hon.

Friend the Member for Poole and for Middlesbrough, Isle of Wight West and Thornaby East that we expect the Railways pension scheme to continue under GBR. Next on GBR governance. My hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight West proposes passenger groups. I can confirm for him that GBR will engage with customers at national and regional level. Its local business units will run station based engagements and use panels of customer representatives to co-design products and services, while national advisory groups will support GBR on disability and other matters.

Of course, the passenger watchdog will also advise GBR, and I hope this reassures him that our intentions in this space are aligned. Turning next to the long term rail strategy, new clauses four, five, seven, eight, 16, 20, 40, 41, 44 and amendments 30, 55, 66, 72, 170 and 171 contain requirements on GBR on matters that the strategy could include or align with amendments four, 30, seven, 38 and 86 seek to ensure the strategy's longevity and transparency. Firstly, I would like to thank the hon.

Member for Glastonbury and Somerton for her considered comments on connectivity for rural areas, and I hope my comments will satisfy others with similar amendments. I am happy to commit today that the strategy will explicitly reference modal shift and the need to bring more people onto the railway. The strategy will also include provisions directing GBR to work with strategic authorities and local communities to seek the best multimodal solutions for each region. Now, turning to the environment, I thank the hon. Member for West Dorset for his amendments.

I can confirm to the House that the strategy will include a specific objective relating to environmental sustainability, which GBR will need to demonstrate alignment with. I am also pleased to confirm that accessibility, socio economic benefits and affordability will be key objectives in the strategy, that it will be 30 years long and that it will align with the UK's ten year infrastructure strategy. I hope that this will also reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire and Glyndwr and the hon. Member for Didcot and Wantage.

This government realises the potential of our railways to connect communities to work, leisure and economic centres. Nothing in the bill, as my hon. Friend mentions, prevents GBR from reopening disused stations or lines, GBR will be constantly guided by its duties, including requirements to consider the public interest and social factors. Now, new clauses 22, 23 and 38 and amendments 59 to 63 mandate specific station improvements. Now step free access is an absolute priority for this government, but it must be deliverable.

Access for all already targets, funding where it has the greatest impact, and the

17:51

Keir Mather MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Selby, Labour)

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18:01

Division

Division. The The question The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I, I Of the contrary, no. no Tellers for the ayes. Charlotte Cane. Tell us

18:15

Railways Bill:Report:New Clause1:Division

>> >> The >> The eyes >> The eyes of >> The eyes of the >> The eyes of the right >> The eyes of the right 77. >> The eyes of the right 77. The

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The eyes of the right 77. The

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noes to the left 271. The ayes to the right were 77.

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The ayes to the right were 77. The noes to the left were 271. So the nerds have it. Nerds have it the nerds have it. Nerds have it unlocked. I call, I call the Minister to move government

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amendment 92 to 95. Formally. Formally. The question is that government

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The question is that government amendment 92 to 95 be made, as many as are of that opinion say aye. the as are of that opinion say aye. the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Amendment one, four, three has been selected for four, three has been selected for separate decision. I call the opposition spokesperson to move the amendment formally.

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amendment formally. I beg. To move. The question is that amendment 143 be made as many as are of that opinion say aye. the contrary. No, opinion say aye. the contrary. No,

18:17

Railways Bill:Report:Page 18:Amendment 143:Division

The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. no. Tell us with the eyes, David Simmonds, Andrew Snowden, tell us for the Order, Order, order!

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The eyes the right 167. The nose.

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The eyes the right 167. The nose.

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The left 266. Oh dropping. The ayes to the right were 167.

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The ayes to the right were 167. The noes to the left were 266. So the noes have it. The noes have it the noes have it. The noes have it unlocked. 267. I call the Minister to move. Government amendment 96 formally. The question is that Government Amendment 96 be made as many as are of that opinion say aye. the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Amendment 148 has been selected for separate decision.

I call the

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opposition spokesperson to move the amendment formally. Thank to me.

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Thank to me. The question is that amendment 148 be made as many as are of that 148 be made as many as are of that opinion, say I of the contrary. No, The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say

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I, I. The contrary. No, no. Tellers for the ayes, David Simmons, Alicia Kearns, tell us for

18:39

Railways Bill:Report:Page 38:Amendment 148::Division

>> >> The >> The ayes >> The ayes to >> The ayes to the >> The ayes to the right.

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The ayes to the right. 155 the nose.

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To the left. 279. The ayes to the right were. 155

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The ayes to the right were. 155 the nurse to the left for 279. So the nurse, the nurse have it unlocked. I call the Minister to move government amendments 97 to 123, 168 to 169, and 124 to 142 formally, formally. The question is that government amendments 97 to 1, two, three, 68 to 1 616, 8 to 1 six nine and one two, 4 to 1 four two be made as many as are of that opinion say aye.

the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Consideration completed Third Reading. Now Minister to move. Third Reading.

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I beg to move that this bill be now read a third time. Madam Deputy Speaker, with your indulgence, I would like to start my remarks would like to start my remarks today with a short story. This time two years ago, like many colleagues on the government benches today, I on the government benches today, I wasn't a sitting MP. I was a parliamentary candidate standing parliamentary candidate standing for the first time to represent my hometown of Swindon, a place with a proud railway heritage with its people.

Unashamedly ambitious for the future. When I stood in that election, I stood on a promise of renationalising our railways. There were some who doubted whether we would ever do it. But as this bill heads off to the other place for its next stage of parliamentary scrutiny, I say to the doubters, this is what change looks like a government doing what it said it would do in its manifesto, a government delivering for the ordinary men and women who use our railways, the businesses who depend on our railways and the staff who

18:41

Railways Bill:Third Reading

work on them. A government replacing a privatised system which was corroding in a state of perpetual decline, with one where there is now new hope.

18:42

Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)

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Yes. >> When I stood at London Bridge station last December, as we unveiled the new Great British Railways branding and train livery, Railways branding and train livery, I saw hope in the eyes of the passengers I spoke to hope for a better, more reliable railway, hope for an end to waiting for trains that never arrive. Hope for the basics of working toilets, enough seats and simple fares. Because if we're honest, Madam Deputy Speaker, hope has been in short supply on the railways for far too long.

For years, the industry delivered poorer performance for higher prices. As a nation, we spent billions on upgrading infrastructure, but a fragmented system could not translate that into passenger benefits. We've had 30 reviews since 2006, all diagnosing the same problem re diagnosing it time and time again. Yet the previous government weren't able weren't willing to do the hard work to create solutions. Madam Deputy Speaker, today we make that change. Thanks to this bill, we will deliver the biggest reform to our railways in 30 years.

Where there is fragmentation, we will bring integration where decisions used to be made for private profits. They will be now made for the public good. And where passengers were forced to navigate multiple companies and unclear accountabilities, they will soon deal with one railway, one team with one mission to deliver better services for the travelling public.

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to. Thank the Right Honourable. Lady for giving way. My right hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich and Evesham and myself have a hope, which is that parking at Worcestershire Parkway station at Worcestershire Parkway station can expand. We've been told by Great Western that they can no Great Western that they can no longer do that. It's now the responsibility of Great British Railways. So can she reassure Railways. So can she reassure myself and my right hon. Friend, that this wonderful entity she's creating through this legislation will expand the parking so that my constituents can hope for a parking place at Worcestershire Parkway.

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Good. Madam Deputy Speaker, people obviously need to be able to get to the railway station. This bill the railway station. This bill gives me the power to establish Great British Railways. I will talk to Great Western Railways about the issue she raises. It's still a issue she raises. It's still a company in private ownership, and I will write back to her with further will write back to her with further detail. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to summarize the main features of this bill, and I'd like to of this bill, and I'd like to remind hon.

Members what we've already achieved. Already. Over half of operators are under public control. Thanks to legislation we introduce weeks after entering office, and the benefits are starting to be felt. Around 40 new arterial trains on south western rolling stock that was sat for years in the sidings under privatisation, now released into service performance amongst operators under public control, now outstripping those still in private hands. Pay as you go ticketing being rolled out to more stations across the South east.

Easier to understand fares in Greater Manchester and passengers keeping more of their hard earned cash thanks to the first rail fares freeze in 30 years. But Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill will be the most significant step yet. For decades, the industry has been crying out for coherent direction and leadership, and with Great British Railways, that is what they will get a single national leader coordinating track and train, setting timetables and fares I'll give away. I thank my right hon.

Friend for giving way. And can I welcome the new powers in this bill, particularly around timetabling, which I think, if I could give an example in my patch of how these new powers could be used to improve passengers experience without having to build any new railway infrastructure, hundreds of people have told me they want a faster service from Hastings to London. That doesn't stop at every single station along the way. That could shave a long time off people's morning commute. And on the other line that I represent, passengers in Rye constantly miss their connection to Ashford because of the late arriving Marshlink, and they face either missing their train or an extremely dangerous dash through Ashford Station, where people fall over.

And if we could better coordinate between Southeastern and Southern Rail, that could be alleviated. So would my right hon. Friend.

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State Secretary of State. My hon. Friend has. Been a. Dogged campaigner when it comes to. The.

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The. Railways for her constituents in Hastings and Rye, and I believe the Hastings and Rye, and I believe the proposals that she has made are worthy of consideration by southeastern, a company in public southeastern, a company in public ownership, and I'd be happy to pursue that further on her behalf, Madam Deputy Speaker. GBR will Madam Deputy Speaker. GBR will sweep away decades of inefficiency and waste. We will finally bear down on spiralling costs. We will wave goodbye to a system riddled with perverse incentives, where armies of lawyers argue over whose fault a delay is.

Instead, GBR will be a publicly owned and commercially agile company run by industry experts, not politicians. We will turn a web of competing interests into one railway that makes decisions in the customer interest and their interests alone. I give way.

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To the Secretary of State when I speak to the staff on Hull trains used by her ministerial colleague to her, left her ministerial to her, left her ministerial colleague to the right. When I speak to the customers of Hull Trains, when I see the huge Trains, when I see the huge economic benefit that Hull trains and open access operator has brought to our region and all the other areas it serves, down to London, they are fearful of the perverse incentives of a great British railway, which does not British railway, which does not have any regard necessarily to open access operators.

What is there in the bill that will protect Hull trains when it seeks access to rail track in future?

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I have always been clear that there is a role for open access operators on our network where they operators on our network where they provide value for money. Madam Deputy Speaker, if I might now turn to passengers, I am not ashamed of to passengers, I am not ashamed of the fact that GBR will be obsessed with delivering for its customers. with delivering for its customers. In fact, it will have a statutory duty to promote their interests. That starts with ticketing. Currently a mind bendingly complex system.

I've said it before and I'll say it again buying a ticket should be effortless. Fares should be simple and consistent, where passengers know they're always getting the best value, and under GBR they will. A new ticketing app and website will give you the ability to buy tickets, check train times and access a range of support, all from the palm of your hand. No booking fees, no navigating lots of websites. Just a 21st century way of paying for a service. And if passengers are let down if accessibility fails, fall short.

If performance is not up to scratch, they will have a powerful champion fighting their corner. A strengthened passenger watchdog. I won't give way. Madam Deputy Speaker GBR will also manage access decisions in relation to track capacity, enabling us to unlock the full potential of the whole network. But it also means unleashing the huge economic and environmental potential of freight rail remains the best way to send bulky goods long distance. That is why GBR will have a legal duty to promote rail freight in line with our 2050 target.

GBR represents a simpler, more transparent railway to do business with. No longer will suppliers need to make their case to multiple parts of the network. GBR will be the single decision maker, able to take a long term view and give the private sector the confidence and certainty it needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to finish by thanking all members who have taken part in the debates on this bill so far, particularly the Transport Select Committee, for their diligent approach.

I am conscious of giving the opposition frontbench their time. I'd also like to thank all members of the public Bill Committee for completing the painstaking task of line by line scrutiny. The hon. Members on the front bench, too, and colleagues sat on the back benches for their vital perspectives. I would particularly like to thank the Under-Secretary of state for aviation, Maritime and Decarbonisation for handling the passage of this Bill so dutifully and ably, and I'd also like to thank my colleague in the other place, the Rail Minister, and a huge thanks to all the officials in my Department who have worked so hard to get the bill to this stage.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this government promised to fix what was broken in our economy and reform what doesn't work. That is why this bill matters. We will fix our broken railways and whilst I cannot promise it will all be achieved overnight, I say this will. GBR put the needs of passengers and freight users above all else. Absolutely, yes. Will passengers soon see the difference in ticketing and reliability in a railway that is easier to use? Most definitely. Will GBR help unlock economic growth, house building and opportunity across the country? Undoubtedly.

This bill draws a line under the decline and dysfunction of the past. Today we are bringing hope back to our railways, and I commend this bill to the House.

18:52

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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The question is that the bill be now read the third time I call Shadow Secretary of State. >> Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I really don't know what the members for don't know what the members for Broadland and Selby are going to do when they're not spending so much time together week in, week out. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are gathered here today to witness the slow collapse. The slowly collapsing government put passengers and taxpayers on the hook for over time.

More expensive fares, more subsidy, or both for fewer trains and a service not run in their best interests. But for the Labour Party's union paymasters. We all know on this side of the House and perhaps some on that side of the House as well, perhaps even the Secretary of State, who has reportedly had some doubts about total state control. We know that this isn't really the answer. Also, if Labour really cared about passengers wallets and purses, Labour members would today have backed our amendments to protect young people and our brave veterans.

On Railcards. We know that no plans does not mean no. Just as farmers, just as small businesses up and down the country about those promises from this Labour government. That's the story of their plan for state control. The bigger story. This isn't about bringing track and train together, which I think we can all agree with. No qualms, no qualms about concentrating power from this Labour government, no qualms about or concern about removing independent challenge. No thought for the taxpayers who will be asked to foot the bill if they are, if and when their experiment goes wrong.

Because under this bill, the organization that runs the trains will also decide who else gets to run the trains. The organization that sets the fares will also dominate selling the tickets. And when something goes wrong, the Secretary of State will have nowhere to hide. And I'll give way to the hon. Lady.

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The Shadow Transport Secretary is willing to give way to a backbencher and listen to their backbencher and listen to their perspective. But Madam Deputy Speaker, does the right hon. Friend agree with me that far from agree with me that far from offering passengers hope, the benches of the government are not offering hope, and particularly offering hope, and particularly when they will not even answer the questions of the backbenchers over simple constituency matters?

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Hear, hear. The hon. Lady, the right hon. My right hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. And the truth is, Madam Deputy Speaker, if this government truly believed in putting passengers first, then why are they making life harder for the very operators who have delivered some of the lowest fares and the highest passenger satisfaction on the entire network? Why are they squeezing open access operators off the tracks? Why are they creating a system? GBR will be the player and referee at the same time.

It's just ridiculous. We were told that Great British Railways would be accountable, but accountable to whom? The regulator loses powers, competitors lose protections and the Secretary of State gains more control. Labour came to power, promising to change the railways for good. And they have. They've accomplished a bill that reduces passengers rights and at the same time will actually lead to fewer services by gutting the RR and letting GBR be the judge, jury and executioner, she is ensuring that on her watch, everyone but the unions will be worse off.

We have tried to rectify this blatant power grab with our amendments supported by the Liberal Democrats, making it easier for others to appeal against GBR overlords. After removing the bizarre judicial review benchmark. But to no one's surprise, they all of them voted against every single one of these very sensible amendments from this side of the House. That's the problem Labour MPs have when you are forced to sign up to an ideological experiment, then it goes against everything that their constituents and the country desires.

So when the complaints start arriving, when the cheaper rail fares disappear, as they are doing when services are cut to make the statistics look better. When passengers discover the Great British Railways is more like Little Britain Railways, I hope she will appreciate then, that this is no way to run a railway railway. That is why we are voting against this bill, because state control is not the same thing as improvement, because bureaucracy is not the same thing as accountability. Because and because putting major decisions in the hands of one giant state body is a retrograde step, not a positive move.

And when all is said and done, when the fares rise, when the services shrink and when the complaints pile up, it will be the Secretary of State and the Labour Party who have nobody but themselves to blame.

18:56

Railways Bill:Third Reading:Division

19:09

Remaining Orders of the Day

>> The question is, as on the Order

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The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. The no. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Motion number six on business of the House. Leader of the House to move. The question is, the House to move. The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I, I. The are of that opinion, say I, I.

The contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Petition. Mayor Ellis.

19:10

Petition Maya Ellis MP (Ribble Valley, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm delighted to present this petition on behalf of Walton Liddell. Residents in my Liddell. Residents in my constituency of Ribble Valley regarding the potential felling of the 18 royal lime trees, which have stood for over 112 years. Petitioners here and on a similar separate petition with almost 8000 signatures, feel the Environment Agency have not sufficiently factored in local heritage in their preferred flooding solution. The petition is therefore request that the House of Commons urges the government to direct the Environment Agency to commit to an independent review of the Victoria Road design in the Preston and South Ribble Flood Risk Management Scheme, and to provide flood defences that are environmentally responsible, respectful, local

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disruption. Petition Royal lime trees in

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Walton le Dale. I beg to move that this house do now adjourn. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. I call David Reid. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's a privilege to lead this evening's adjournment debate on improving national resilience. And I'm also glad that the security Minister is responding. A man who I have a great deal of respect for having both served at what is now the Special Forces Strike group, albeit at different times. I know he's one of the few people in this House who has seen the sharp end of national insecurity first hand. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's sadly become commonplace to say that we are living through unprecedented times.

The international system we've all lived under has fractured war, has broken out across multiple continents and technological upheaval, and a warming planet compound to create an increasingly volatile world. We hear repeatedly across this House that the first duty of any government is defence of the realm. It's repeated so often it is becoming a platitude. So let me ask the harder question are we actually living up to it here in the UK in 2026? This evening I'll set out why I believe we are falling short and more importantly, what we might be able to do about it, how we build a country and citizenship resilient enough to meet the growing and interconnected number of threats to our homeland.

Happily.

19:12

Adjournment: Improving national resilience

Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all, can I commend the Member for her ex-boyfriend coming forward? And it's not just defence when it comes to resilience. It's also about health. And I cast the mind of the hon. Gentleman in this House back to the national emergency of Covid-19, the report of the UK Covid inquiry and it stated about fatal strategic flaws. The NHS didn't collapse. It came close. Patients often did not receive the standard of care that they were due, and that really led to delays in diagnosis and treatment.

So does the hon. Member not agree that serious concerns about the lack of the health services effective surge capacity need to be addressed, and in anticipation of another national health emergency and securing

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national resilience in the face of medical uncertainty. Thank you so much. Thank you. I thank the hon. Member for his

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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. And he raises a serious point, something I'll come on to in my speech. But it is that interconnected point. We saw that during Covid-19, how that affected so many different parts of society, it closed down industry, the it closed down industry, the economy, and we have to start thinking about doing things across department. But there are issues that I will come on to now. The that I will come on to now. The government's own definition of national resilience is a society's ability to anticipate, withstand, respond to, and quickly recover from severe crises where the natural disasters, pandemics, geopolitical shocks or deliberate attacks, it rests on a whole of society approach in which government, business and the public work together to protect critical national infrastructure and maintain vital services.

Now, last year's Strategic Defence Review made precisely this point. One of the central recommendations was a national conversation on defence and resilience built on that whole of society approach, and premised on a simple idea that defending the

19:14

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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19:27

Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)

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in broadcasting, television and radio to millions across our capital and beyond, but also for the contribution that infrastructure such as this makes to our national resilience in times of crisis and emergency, when trusted, reliable communications matter more than ever. And will he also join me in thanking the engineers, technicians, operators, and all the staff who maintain and run this critical national infrastructure, often behind the scenes, ensuring that the public can stay informed, connected and safe.

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Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very grateful to him and very happy to join with him in paying tribute to the work that's done at the Crystal Palace transmitting station. It is, as he knows better than I, It is, as he knows better than I, an iconic feature of South London. So very happy to take the opportunity this evening to thank all of those involved for their all of those involved for their work in ensuring that the public stay informed, connected and safe.

And whilst I'm on that particular And whilst I'm on that particular subject, let me also, Madam Deputy Speaker, take the opportunity to thank all of those who work at Emley Moor in West Yorkshire who do similar work. I was very privileged to meet them just the other day. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was just reflecting on the remarks that the hon. Gentleman made about international comparisons, and there are many similarities similarities with our international partners. But as the hon. Member, I think, will acknowledge, each nation's approach is influenced by its history, geography and societal approach to resilience.

Now, building on the good work of the previous government, we have set out our strategic vision on resilience. Take, for example, our work following the Covid-19 inquiry. We considered the findings and made deliberate updates to our resilience plans, including strengthening our relationships with the devolved governments through the four nations ministerial group. Now, as I'm sure the hon. Member will also recognise, for more than 20 years, successive governments have anchored the National Security Risk assessment as the foundation of their approach to the complex resilience landscape.

That landscape continues to evolve and the risks we face today are volatile, varied and interconnected. They include cyber attacks, threats to energy security, global supply chain pressures, and, of course, armed conflict. And I am pleased to be able to talk about the government's approach with regard to those particular areas. But first, let me say something in response to the hon. Gentleman about accountability. Under the lead government department model, each risk is owned by a single lead department, ensuring those with the relevant expertise are responsible for the work to keep us protected against that particular risk.

To support this, the government will publish a refreshed expectation set for lead government departments. This will clarify how they are expected to deliver their responsibilities, as well as the role of other departments in supporting them. The government has also taken steps to clarify accountability and enhance our readiness for the highest impact whole of system crises. We have explicitly embedded the leadership role of the Cabinet Office in our central crisis Management doctrine, the Amber book, and we have strengthened governance on risk planning and mapped key cascading impacts of catastrophic risk to ensure a true whole of government response.

So if a catastrophe should happen, no government department can be in any doubt about their role. Let's take a national power outage. As an example. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero remains the lead department across the whole risk cycle, from assessment to recovery, and continues to lead on the government's relationship with the energy sector. The role of the Cabinet Office is to step in to help lead the response. Given the significant cross-cutting impacts that a national power outage would bring.

This central co-ordination function allows all responding departments to respond to their impacted areas, with the Cabinet Office providing situational reporting of the whole system. Impacts of the risk. This way, the government collectively understands and is prepared for the risks that the UK faces. The Cabinet Office also leads on the overall response to severe weather. This is underpinned by the Severe Weather Resilience Network, where crucial inputs from the Met Office, which I know the hon. Gentleman will be very familiar with, are shared with individual departments who lead on the response, planning and resilience of the sectors that they represent.

This ensures that when the weather turns, our response is unified, rapid and robust. But it's not just how we plan for responding to emergencies. We have also informed our understanding of their impact as well. We know that emergencies impact people unequally. And to address this, we have developed the Risk Vulnerability tool and provided further guidance to local resilience forums so that they can better identify and support those who are most vulnerable. The UK government is proud to be a part of an international community where we can both both learn from and share our learnings with others, but I wouldn't want anyone listening to think that planning and response is all down to government departments.

Local resilience forums are a critical part of our resilience system. In fact, the stronger LRF trailblazers programme moves beyond legacy structures to build a local network that is agile, accountable and capable of protecting citizens at neighbourhood level. The Resilience Action Plan envisaged a whole of society approach, redefining national resilience as a shared mission where citizens, communities, civil society, businesses and the public sector all play a vital and active role. Finally, building a truly resilient society requires a fundamental cultural shift in the way that emergency preparedness is thought about.

That includes being clear about the risks that we face and the actions that we can all take to improve our collective resilience.

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I will give way. To the Minister for giving way. The on the point about transparency. In January, the Joint Intelligence Committee's national security assessment was partially released, assessment was partially released, a redacted version released only after a Freedom of Information request from Green Alliance. And request from Green Alliance. And that report highlighted that biodiversity loss and ecosystem collapse are a threat to national collapse are a threat to national security. So what action is being taken following that report, and in particular, when will the full

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version be made available to members of this House? I'm grateful to him. I absolutely share the concerns that absolutely share the concerns that he's expressed. Let me give an undertaking to come back with the kind of technical detail about the kind of technical detail about the report that he's raised, but I hope he can be assured of the seriousness with which the government attaches to the to the government attaches to the to the matters that he has raised. All of us in this place, I hope, are understanding of the nature of the climate crisis and the impact that it is having now and will have in the future.

And we have an absolute responsibility in government to make sure that we are properly prepared for that. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was just about to make the point that the government's Prepare website provides guidance on the actions recommended for individuals, households and communities to increase their preparedness and resilience. And this debate this evening highlights something fundamental that resilience is not an abstract policy objective. It is, I hope, a shared national endeavour. Now, I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the hon.

Member for Exmouth and Exeter East has spoken powerfully about the importance of strengthening national resilience in the face of evolving risks. We share his determination, and I'd be very happy to continue the conversation with him about these matters. But let me just give him some further assurance by saying that next month, the government will make its annual statement to Parliament on resilience, which will provide a detailed update on the progress that we've been making to deliver against the commitments over the last 12 months or so.

And I hope that that will go some way further to addressing the points that the hon. Member has made. But regardless, I give him and the House an assurance that we will continue to learn, adapt and build a robust future for the United

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Kingdom here. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn, as many as are of that opinion, say I. I.

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