Reinforced Autoclaved Aerated Concrete in Education Settings

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 4th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, I would like to make a Statement about the steps that my department is taking to support education settings to respond to the risk of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, commonly known as RAAC.

Before I go into specifics, I want to be clear that absolutely nothing is more important than the safety of children and staff. It has always been the case that where we are made aware of a building that poses an immediate risk, we have taken immediate action. Parents and children have been looking forward to starting the new term, and I understand that the timing of this change in guidance to schools and colleges will have caused concern and disruption. However, faced with recent cases, including one that emerged right at the end of the school holidays, I believe 100% that this is the right thing to do. That is why we have taken such rapid steps to support our schools and colleges.

There are over 22,000 schools and colleges in England, and the vast majority are unaffected by RAAC. Local authorities and multi-academy trusts are responsible for those buildings, but we have been supporting schools and colleges to ensure that risks resulting from RAAC are mitigated. To date, 52 schools and colleges have those mitigations in place.

The majority have been able to continue to provide face-to-face learning without any disruption, and we remain in contact with them. Last week we advised a further 104 schools and colleges to take spaces that are known to contain RAAC out of use if they have not already done so. The majority of these settings will remain open for face-to-face learning on their existing site, because only a small part of the site is affected. A minority of pupils will be fully or partially relocated to alternative accommodation to continue face-to-face learning while mitigations are put in place.

I want to reassure parents and children that we are taking a deliberately cautious approach to prioritising children’s safety. Because of our proactive questionnaire and surveying programme, we have a better understanding of where RAAC is on the school estate than in most other countries. All schools and colleges that have advised us they suspect they might have RAAC will be surveyed within a matter of weeks—in many cases in a few days. Most suspected cases will not have RAAC. So far when we have surveyed schools, around two-thirds of suspected cases do not have RAAC. We will follow the same approach with any new cases through the professional surveying programme.

The vast majority of schools will be unaffected and children should attend school as normal unless parents are contacted by their school. As my right honourable friend the Minister for Schools explained on Friday, we will publish a list of schools once mitigations are in place. It is right that parents are informed by schools if their school is impacted, and that schools have time to work with their Department for Education caseworker on those mitigations.

I am confirming today that we will publish the list of the 156 schools with confirmed cases of RAAC this week, with details of initial mitigations in place. After that, we will provide updated information as new cases of RAAC are confirmed and existing cases resolved. This will include updates on the impact on pupils, such as how many are learning face-to-face and how many are receiving short periods of remote education. Once again, we are doing everything in our power to minimise disruption and avoid remote learning.

I must thank the professional response of leaders, teachers and support staff in the sector, who have acted swiftly to deliver contingency plans. Each impacted school and college has a dedicated caseworker to help implement a mitigation plan. This could include other spaces on the school site or in nearby schools, or elsewhere in the local area, until structural supports or temporary buildings are installed. We have increased the supply of temporary buildings, working with three contractors, and accelerated the installation of these. We have the support of our leading utility companies to ensure that those classrooms can be opened. In the small number of schools with confirmed RAAC, disruption to face-to-face learning has usually lasted a matter of days.

In terms of funding, as the Chancellor said, we will spend whatever it takes to keep children safe. That includes paying for emergency mitigation work to make buildings safe, including alternative classroom space where necessary. Where schools need additional help with revenue costs, such as transport to other locations, we are actively engaging with every school affected to put appropriate support in place. We will also fund the longer-term refurbishment or rebuilding projects, where these are needed, to remove RAAC.

Professional advice from technical experts on RAAC has evolved over time. Indeed, the question of how to manage its risks across all sectors has spanned successive Governments since 1994. My department alerted the sector about the potential risks of RAAC in 2018, following a sudden roof collapse at a primary school. We published a warning note with the Local Government Association, which asked all responsible bodies to:

‘Identify any properties constructed using RAAC’


and to

‘ensure that RAAC properties are regularly inspected by a structural engineer’.

In February 2021 we issued a guide on how to identify RAAC. Concerned that not all responsible bodies were acting quickly enough, in 2022 we decided to take a more direct approach. We issued a questionnaire to responsible bodies for all 22,000 schools to ask them to identify whether or not they had or suspected RAAC. Responsible bodies have submitted responses to the questionnaire for 95% of schools with blocks built in the target period.

In September 2022 we started a programme where the DfE sent a professional surveyor to assess whether RAAC is present. If RAAC was present, the previous DfE guidance was to grade it as critical or non-critical and take buildings out of use only for critical RAAC cases. Such was the level of our concern, however, that I asked officials to seek evidence of risks, including with non-critical RAAC. It is because of this proactive approach that we discovered details of three new cases over the summer where RAAC that would have been graded as non-critical had failed without warning. The first was in a commercial setting. The second was in a school in a different educational jurisdiction. In that instance, the plank that failed remained suspended, resting on a steel beam. As the plank was fully intact, DfE technical officials and engineers were able to investigate the situation. In their professional judgment, the panel affected would have been rated as non-critical but it had failed.

Ministerial colleagues and I were already extremely concerned, but then a third failure of RAAC panels occurred, at a school in England in late August. This was a panel that had previously been graded as non-critical. Because children’s safety is our absolute priority, it was right to make the difficult decision to change our guidance for education settings, so that areas previously deemed to contain non-critical RAAC are now being closed.

I want to set out why we are taking this more cautious approach with the education estate in England. Professional guidance is clear that wherever RAAC is found, it needs to be monitored closely. The school estate is very disparate, with 22,000 settings and over 64,000 individual blocks. Monitoring RAAC closely is therefore very difficult to do on the estate, and many responsible bodies do not have dedicated estates professionals on all school or college sites at all times. That is why the approach we are taking is the right one for our schools and colleges. My officials have worked closely with experts in this field. Chris Goodier, professor of construction engineering and materials at Loughborough University, has said that:

‘DfE has been employing some of the best engineers on this and have consulted us and the Institution of Structural Engineers’.


The Government’s priority is for every child across the United Kingdom to go to school safely. My officials have been engaging urgently with the devolved Administrations to discuss our findings and offer support to understand RAAC in school estates in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Last week, I wrote to offer my support, including further official or ministerial-level engagement and to facilitate discussions between our technical experts.

I am aware that this policy change occurred during the recess, and therefore I was not able to notify the House in advance. For that I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I hope you understand why I felt that I had to take the decision when I did. We are taking an extremely cautious approach on this issue, but I believe that this is the right thing to do when it comes to the safety of children. I commend this Statement to the House.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank the Minister for coming to the House today and updating us on this issue. As a parent myself, I am sending a child to a new school. I have every sympathy with parents who are deeply worried about the situation and everything that teachers across the country are doing. If safety had been prioritised over budgets, we would not be in this position today.

The Statement says that, within a matter of weeks, a list of all schools will be published

“once mitigations are in place”.

Although I welcome the change of heart from the Government, does the Minister feel that, with 10% of schools left to conduct surveys, those surveys will be available in a couple of weeks?

Further, the Statement says that the Government will spend “whatever it takes”. This was later clarified as coming from existing educational budgets. Given the scale and urgency of the problem, does the Minister really feel that school budgets alone will be capable of dealing with this problem?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their remarks. I feel that I must start by countering the assertions from the noble Earl that safety has come second to budgets and that budgets have been prioritised over safety. I want to be 100% clear with the House: there is not a single case in which we have known of an immediate risk to life and the department has not acted. We have an urgent capital support fund, which we use in such cases. I want to make it clear on the record that what the noble Earl said is not an accurate reflection of the facts.

The noble Earl also referred to the publication of the list of schools, to which we have committed. To be clear, our priority—I think that many Members of your Lordships’ House would agree with this—was to communicate with parents first. When the names of schools started to leak into the press at the end of last week, one school in particular was so inundated by the media that it was unable to communicate with parents and get on and plan its mitigations. It was a school for children with profound learning difficulties. If there is one school that all of us in this House would want to keep open, it is a school for children with learning difficulties. I really think that there was an extremely good reason why we prioritised that.

I do not recognise the figure of 10% of schools needing to be surveyed. That simply is not accurate. We are confident that in the next few weeks we will be able to complete the surveys that are needed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, focused significantly on funding and the Chancellor’s statement. The Chancellor was crystal clear in his statement. Let me just run through the funding that we are offering schools immediately. It will cover immediate capital costs relating to, for example, temporary classrooms, propping or whatever else might be needed. It will also cover revenue costs. For example, we will work on a case-by-case basis with schools but, if additional school transport costs arise, we will cover them. If schools need to rent space in another building, we will help with that. All reasonable requests will be dealt with reasonably. Our absolute aim is to remove friction for schools so that they can get children back in classrooms as quickly as possible.

I remind the House that we have, through our various school rebuilding programmes, already rebuilt more than 500 schools since 2010. We have added 1 million new school places to accommodate the increase in the number of pupils. The noble Baroness referred to the track record of the Labour Government in Wales on funding, but I remind the House that we are working with and supporting the Labour Government in Wales and with colleagues in Scotland, because they had not started this survey programme. We are all aiming for the same thing, to resolve this as quickly as possible, but we need to be fair when hurling things around. I am not suggesting that the noble Baroness was not being fair, but I am trying to set the balance. I really commend my predecessor, my noble friend Lady Berridge, and colleagues in the department who have been tireless in working on this issue.

The noble Baroness also questioned whether we could have done more sooner. I do not want to repeat myself but our understanding of how this building material behaves is as good as anyone’s. The new evidence that came out this summer is genuinely new. It is since the end of term that we have become aware of these three cases. I stop and think about the case that happened 10 days ago, and what would have happened if that had happened in 10 days’ time. This Statement would feel very different for us all.

On co-ordinating with fire and rescue services and local resilience forums, I am sure that the noble Baroness will understand that our absolute priority at the moment is working with each individual school. We have about 50 caseworkers working with individual schools. We have project directors going on-site. As soon as we get through this first phase and all children are back in education, we will of course co-ordinate, and the Government will gladly accept any other suggestions that the noble Baroness makes.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is highly undesirable for schools to have to resort to online teaching? If that is the case, would she encourage those with spaces to make them available as temporary classrooms? I have in mind, for examples, churches—that point might be noted on the Bishops’ Benches—village halls, private sector schools with available classrooms and maybe commercial premises that have not been let.

Also, if there are problems associated with health and safety regulations—planning, transport, insurance and things of that kind—can the Government address them as a matter of urgency?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I completely agree with my noble friend. We are most concerned to minimise online teaching and remote learning. Our children have been out of the classroom enough with Covid, and this House knows the seriousness of issues with attendance. We all know that this is the moment in the year when we want children in the classroom—on 4 September, or maybe 5 September if there is an inset day.

In relation to online teaching, perhaps it will reassure my noble friend if I say that we have already worked with 52 schools and mitigated over the last few months, before this change in policy when we identified a critical grade. The average number of days lost for those children was six. Six days is a lot. For some children it was more and for some it was none.

In the vast majority of those cases, the whole school does not have RAAC across all its roofs and floors; it is typically in a small area of the school. I bumped into someone this afternoon who was talking about their secondary school. They are able to reorganise the space in their school. They will miss one day of school tomorrow and then all the children will be back on Wednesday. That is in a big secondary school.

On my noble friend’s second point, in those first 52 cases, we are so grateful to other local schools, some of which have spare space and have bent over backwards to make sure that children do not miss a single day more than they need to.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)]

My Lords, the safety of children in our schools is being compromised not just by RAAC construction. I remind the House of my interests, in particular as an adviser to Charter School Capital and as chair of the E-ACT multi-academy trust. In the trust, there is a secondary school with CLASP construction, meaning it has no foundations, has asbestos and desperately needs replacing. Another has external concrete cladding that is falling off, so we are spending over £50,000 a year just on scaffolding to catch it before it hurts anyone. When will the Government implement a comprehensive condition survey, not just for RAAC schools, and match it with proper investment to ensure the education budget is spent on education and not just on patching and mending the crumbling school estate?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I remind the noble Lord that the Government made a full survey of the school estate. We carried out the first one I think between 2017 and 2019 and we are in the middle of the second one at the moment. That looks at the condition grade across schools. I have the figures in front of me: in the first survey, 95% of individual condition grades—which literally look at the window frames; I am not sure about door handles but the walls, the roofs, et cetera—were graded as good or satisfactory, and 2.4% were poor or bad: 2.1% were poor and 0.3% were bad.

The noble Lord will also know that all our funding to schools for condition is prioritised based on condition need. He also knows that if there is an urgent request we will always consider it. We have already identified some the of so-called system builds, such as Laingspan and Intergrid. Almost all of that has been completely resolved and plans are in place for all of it to be removed. We have a programme of surveys starting later this year looking at the remaining construction types to understand them better and understand whether they might pose a risk.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a working teacher. I congratulate the Minister on the speed of her response to this development. We have heard a lot about buildings and children, but can the Government assure the House that they will provide extra support and counselling for senior leadership teams to reflect the extreme pressures during these difficult times, particularly those that have no local network in their area?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. I visited a school on Friday where we identified RAAC earlier in the summer. It was about to reopen. I had not got down the drive and that was literally the first point that the head teacher raised. I take this opportunity to again thank all those head teachers who are dealing with this at the moment.

On the individual issue about what support to offer head teachers, that really would come better from the school itself, the trust or the local authority. For us to try to do that in Sanctuary Buildings might not be the best route—but, as I said, we will consider all reasonable requests for revenue funding and we absolutely recognise the pressure that this issue puts on school leaders.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, a Question that I have tabled on the general wider effects of RAAC has been set down as a topical Question for Wednesday, so for tonight I simply ask the Minister this. The Statement refers to the fact that a guide to RAAC was issued in February 2021. To whom was it issued, and can she say whether, in addition to being sent to the educational sector, the guide was also made available through other departments that are responsible for other public buildings of a wider kind?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The guidance that we have produced started in 2018, just to be clear. Once we were aware of the primary school that I referred to in the Statement that had collapsed, we introduced guidance in conjunction with the Local Government Association that went to all educational settings and responsible bodies. That was followed up with additional guidance in both 2021 and 2022.

As to other departments, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for raising that. The situation is very different in different estates in terms of the size and complexity of the estate. I think the education estate is uniquely large and complicated. If, for example, one were to think about the situation in the hospital estate, obviously hospitals are, first, much bigger buildings, so it is easier to move people around if one needs to put in mitigations, and, secondly, they have dedicated estates teams to manage any risks that are posed.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend and I share the relief, as I am sure all noble Lords do, that nobody has been injured as a result of this building material. I would be grateful if my noble friend could clarify something. The Statement says that 95% of the questionnaires sent out to schools with blocks built in the target era were completed. I note that there was a tweet asking schools to complete that questionnaire, and on the back of that questionnaire, surveys were taken out. So have the 5% that have not responded to the questionnaire been covered by direct visits or phone calls by the department?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. The short answer is yes. We have had a dedicated team in the department following up and calling, in some cases several times, all the responsible bodies concerned. I wrote to all of them today, stressing the importance of returning the questionnaire by the end of this week.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I thank the Minister for the briefing earlier today, for the Statement and for the Government’s swift action, despite the fact that this is a very difficult time to be challenged in this way. Can the Minister confirm that most students who would receive free school meals are either being provided with an equivalent meal if being taught on alternative premises or that relevant financial allowances are being made to their parents to provide appropriate nutritious meals during their absence from school? Secondly, will she ensure that, if alternative provision in terms of buildings is necessary, adequate child protection assessments will be made before children are sent to other premises?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In relation to the noble Baroness’s question about free school meals, children who are eligible for free school meals will continue to receive free school meals in the setting that they attend, if it is not their normal school, and my understanding is that they will get a voucher or equivalent in the event that they have any days at home. The noble Baroness raised the issue of making sure that there is an adequate safeguarding assessment of any alternative sites. Our experience from the first 52 schools where this has happened is that, in the vast majority of cases, alternative sites have been other schools, which obviously makes that much more straightforward. However, the noble Baroness raises a good point in relation to that, and obviously we are particularly concerned about vulnerable children and children with special educational needs.

[Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister points out the responsibility of the responsible bodies with respect to the buildings but also says how difficult this is for some responsible bodies. Some are as small as three schools in one multi-academy trust. Can the Minister be clear about the expectations on these responsible bodies for the monitoring as well as the maintenance of buildings, particularly at the strategic level? The Minister has just referred to a survey that the department itself carries out over a number of years, and I am now left unclear as to who is responsible for the long-term monitoring of potentially serious defects in school property.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, we set out the expectations for responsible bodies. I think it is safe to say that the local authorities are pretty clear what their responsibilities are. In relation to academy trusts, those responsibilities are set out in the Academy Trust Handbook. We actually strengthened, clarified and reinforced the language around that before we knew about the three schools; we did that earlier in the summer with a new updated version. This was just to make sure—reflecting the noble Baroness’s point—that there was absolutely no doubt about the practical steps that should reasonably be expected for responsible bodies to take.

I am glad of the opportunity to say that our condition data collection survey, which I referred to, is not in any way a blurring of the lines of responsibility between responsible bodies and the department. However, it allows us both to plan the quantum of funding that we need to give to those responsible bodies to maintain their buildings and to identify areas where there is greater deterioration or less. So we have a broad overview of the school estate, but that should not blur any lines in relation to responsibility.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)]

My Lords, does that inform the quantum of money that the department gets from the Treasury, or does it just inform the quantum that is distributed among responsible bodies once the Treasury has decided what to give to the department?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It certainly informs the second although, as the noble Lord knows, larger academy trusts and local authorities have discretion to judge within their own school estate how they want to use that money. A number of things inform our discussions with the Treasury, of which the condition data survey is one, but it is definitely not the only thing.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister may be aware of a school that has been particularly badly affected: Myton School in Warwick, where 1,800 pupils face losing three days of school due to a delay to the start of term. This is a school with two main buildings dating back to the 1950s and 1960s, which were described as being both old and “in disrepair”. It is the first floor of the lower school building that is affected.

My question, informed by this case, is twofold. First, this school is now getting an annual budget for maintenance of £35,000, which is a quarter of what it was receiving, in pounds, in 2010. This is a school in disrepair. Will the Government look at the situation that has arisen with RAAC and see that there needs to be a much broader review and a much greater injection into funds for school maintenance?

Secondly, on a very specific point, the Education Secretary in the other place has said that each school will have a dedicated caseworker, with whom they will have contact to help them deal with any issues so that the department can liaise. The BBC reported late this afternoon that this school, which has clearly been very badly affected, has yet to hear from the department. The head teacher was expecting a phone call over the weekend and did not receive it. When will contact be made by all the caseworkers to the affected schools

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In relation to the injection of capital, I know the noble Baroness will have heard the Chancellor say that we will be making the money available in both the short and longer term to address the issues that have arisen from this. If the noble Baroness wants to write to me separately with the name of that school—or I can look in Hansard, since I did not catch the name—I will be very happy to follow that up. We have been tracking every day since we started trying to reach schools. I have been reassured that attempts have been made to speak to every single school, and my understanding was that we had done so. I hope that BBC report might be hours out of date, but if not then I am happy to follow that up tonight if that would be helpful.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain the remarks of Jonathan Slater, the Permanent Secretary, on Radio 4 today? In talking about the capital programme for schools, including the conditions survey that the Minister has mentioned, he pointed out that in order to deal with RAAC and other capital improvements that were needed in schools, there was a funding need of 300 to 400 schools to be done each year. When the department bid to the Treasury for that money, it was given money for 50 schools by the then Chancellor, who is now Prime Minister. Does the Minister agree with me, and I think many of us, that that is not satisfactory, there needs to be a change of policy, and capital investment urgently needs to go into our schools to deal with RAAC and other issues?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We have made significant investments in our schools—£15 billion since 2015, and £19 billion in this spending review period. I mentioned that we have added 1 million school places since 2010. We have rebuilt over 500 schools, we have committed to another 400 and we have another 100 in the pipeline. The noble Lord will have heard my right honourable friend the Minister for School Standards saying that we always ask for as much money as we can get from the Treasury. I say again that where there are urgent needs we always deal with them, but we have difficult prioritisation choices to make.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend and her department on a crisis well handled and on dealing with the rather innovative interpretation of the Civil Service Code that she will have encountered this morning, which I hope the next Government will not have to suffer from, given the importance of confidentiality in running a Government. Does she think there is a longer-term learning to come from the whole episode of RAAC? Where we innovate substantially in building methods, particularly in situations like schools, we should, at the beginning, install monitoring programmes to understand how these materials are working out in practice. We are looking at big changes to do with decarbonising construction, and we risk repeating this whole cycle over again if we are not careful.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. More broadly, making sure that we have a deep technical understanding about how these building materials develop over time is critical.

With the leave of the House, I have an answer to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett: the school was surveyed on Friday. We are getting in touch with them as we speak.

T-levels

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 25th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of Ofsted’s final report of its T-level thematic review, published on 20 July, specifically its conclusions that (1) in some instances, T-levels provide inappropriate work placements, and (2) many T-level students drop out after the first year.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, T-levels are new, challenging qualifications, and we continue to offer extensive support for their implementation. We want every T-level student to receive outstanding vocational education. We commissioned Ofsted to help us identify what further areas for improvement might be needed. We welcome its report and are already taking action, including a £12 million employer support fund and bespoke workforce support to help address concerns around work placements and student continuity.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that response, but the Ofsted T-level review was highly critical, identifying what it termed a “range of shortcomings”. I hope this will lead to them being resolved. Until that happens, another issue raised in the report is of real urgency. Ofsted called for a review of the Government’s wider level 3 reforms, including the defunding of most BTECs by 2025. It points to the impact of that on disadvantaged young people. That is a point that noble Lords across your Lordships’ House have made on numerous occasions, both during the passage of the skills Act and since then. On each occasion, the Minister dismissed our fears as scaremongering. Now that Ofsted has recommended it, will she and her Ministers revisit the question of the impact of defunding alternate pathways to T-levels on young people?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government do not have any plans to revisit the defunding of those other pathways. We are confident in the quality of T-levels and the employability that they offer students. Our job is to make them work at the level of the best institutions that have been delivering them, which the noble Lord will have seen referred to in the Ofsted report. We will make sure we offer those opportunities particularly to the young people to whom he refers.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that so many students are dropping T-levels because they have been misled? They thought they were going to study a technical curriculum, but the curriculums are 75% academic and 25% technical—that is absurd. In the review she is undertaking, will she ensure that the curriculums for engineering, construction and digital skills are at least 40% technical, otherwise students will not study them? That means you will have fewer technicians for the economy, which desperately needs more.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend knows, the qualifications were designed very closely with employers. The content of the curriculum reflects what employers, working with the department and colleges, told us that they needed. I remind the House that, historically, we have had over 200 qualifications in engineering and over 200 in building and construction. There has been a complicated, unclear landscape. We will now have a clear and high quality one.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister talked about the problems with these courses. There are virtually no problems that were not predicted. Could the Minister tell us what we are doing about careers advice for the young people taking these qualifications? Where there are courses which have failed—if everybody fails on the second year, as is pointed out in the report, they have failed—will the careers advice in the local area reflect this, so that those courses can die if they are not delivering?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not recognise the examples the noble Lord referred to. When I talk to students who have done T-levels, they are evangelical about the value it has brought them and proud of their achievements and the quality of what they have learned. In relation to careers advice, in spring this year we made available grants of up to £10,000 per provider to boost careers guidance in schools and colleges, so all students have a good understanding of T-levels and their benefits.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing to encourage more small and medium-sized enterprises to offer T-level work placements, given that in many parts of the country placements in larger businesses may not be easily available and SMEs play a key role in many vital sectors of the economy, including the creative sector?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that we need a range of choices of placements, and that must include small and medium-sized enterprises. We launched recently an employer support fund, which will pay for legitimate costs employers incur in hosting placements. We believe that will be of particular value to small and medium-sized enterprises.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am slightly shocked that the Minister does not seem to be taking seriously the very serious criticisms included in the Ofsted report about T-levels—which, I have to say, my noble friend Lord Watson and other noble Lords predicted when the House discussed the establishment of T-levels. There is no satisfaction in being right, because this concerns the lives, futures and aspirations of a cohort of young people who have been badly served by T-levels, many of whom have dropped out. Has the department tracked these youngsters? What has happened to them, and have they been offered alternative options?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will make a couple of points. I think the data that the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, referred to on drop-outs refers to the T-level transition programme—we are doing a lot of work to strengthen and improve this, for the reasons both noble Lords referred to—rather than T-levels themselves. In the interests of fairness and accuracy, noble Lords have understandably reflected some of the areas for improvement highlighted by Ofsted, but I will quote the report:

“At their best, T levels provide an opportunity to combine high-quality study of theory with excellent development of practical skills”.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships’ House had a special Select Committee on this area and found that the complication for young people not going on to A-levels was one of the issues. T-levels are a simple way to put technical qualifications on a par with the academic route of A-levels. Could my noble friend the Minister please outline whether there are specific career guidance initiatives to ensure that children in a school which is offering only A-levels and has its own sixth form are made aware of T-levels? Obviously, that may mean they leave and go to a different institution.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. As I referred to, we are making available grants of up to £10,000 per provider to boost careers guidance in schools and colleges, so that every child is aware of the potential of T-levels. Of course, in the skills Act, the Baker clause, from my noble friend Lord Baker, means that students are getting more frequent careers input throughout their time in secondary school.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that finding suitable placements, even after Covid, is a particular barrier to increasing the number of T-levels available from providers. Some employers are poorly informed about the content and structure of T-levels. Can the Minister tell me what steps the department is taking to improve this situation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are investing in direct support for employers, including through the delivery of an employer support package which offers online guidance, workshops and hands-on support to employers. We have a T-level employer ambassador network, and I mentioned the employer support fund already. Obviously, we have made a very significant investment, both in capital and capacity and delivery, to allow T-levels to be delivered at the scale we need.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, the Ofsted report also refers to some young people who started in the first tranche of T-levels expecting that they would assist them in gaining access to university only to find that, in the case of their course, that was not possible. Can the Minister say how many universities accept T-levels for access? What steps are the Government taking to increase that number?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There are relatively few T-levels where students have completed both years, given the timing of their introduction. Currently, 136 higher education providers have indicated that they will accept T-levels, including the vast majority of Russell group universities.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on introducing T-levels, which are, to judge from local reaction, a very successful, solidly academic qualification. We have considerable worry that there will be many students who will not be up to taking them who are currently served by BTECs. I urge my noble friend to revisit that, because these are students who we should not be letting down.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are absolutely committed to those students. I remind the House that the current applied general qualifications produce very mixed outcomes indeed. The point my noble friend makes is valid, and, of course, by increasing the quality of the offer at level 3 we also need to reform qualifications at level 2, level 1 and entry level, to make sure that we equip students to progress to the highest level to which they aspire. With that, I also wish the House a very happy and peaceful recess.

Higher Education Reform

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall now repeat the Statement made in the House of Commons on Monday 17 July:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to announce the publication of the Government’s higher education reform consultation response. This country is one of the best in the world for studying in higher education, boasting four of the world’s top 10 universities. For most, higher education is a sound investment, with graduates expected to earn on average £100,000 more over their lifetime than those who do not go to university.

However, there are still pockets of higher education provision where the promise that university education will be worth while does not hold true and where an unacceptable number of students do not finish their studies or find a good job after graduating. That cannot continue. It is not fair to taxpayers who subsidise that education, but most of all it is not fair to those students who are being sold a promise of a better tomorrow, only to be disappointed and end up paying far into the future for a degree that did not offer them good value.

We want to make sure that students are charged a fair price for their studies and that a university education offers a good return. Our reforms are aimed at achieving that objective. That is why the Government launched the consultation in 2022 in order to seek views on policies based on recommendations made by Sir Philip Augar and his independent panel. The consultation ended in May 2022, and the Department for Education has been considering the responses received. I am now able to set out the programme of reforms that we are taking forward.

I believe that the traditional degree continues to hold great value, but it is not the only higher education pathway. Over the past 13 years we have made substantial reforms to ensure that the traditional route is not the only pathway to a good career. Higher technical qualifications massively enhance students’ skills and career prospects, and deserve parity of esteem with undergraduate degrees. We have seen a growth in degree-level apprenticeships, with over 188,000 students enrolling since their introduction in 2014. I have asked the Office for Students to establish a £40 million competitive degree apprenticeships fund to drive forward capacity-building projects to broaden access to degree apprenticeships over the next two years.

That drive to encourage skills is why we are also investing up to £115 million to help providers deliver higher technical education. In March we set out detailed information on how the lifelong loan entitlement will transform the way in which individuals can undertake post-18 education, and we continue to support that transformation through the Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill that is currently passing through the other place. We anticipate that that funding, coupled with the introduction of the LLE from 2025, will help to incentivise the take-up of higher technical education, filling vital skills gaps across the country.

Each of those reforms has had one simple premise: that we are educating people with the skills that will enable them to have a long and fulfilling career. I believe that we should have the same expectation for higher education: it should prepare students for life by giving them the right skills and knowledge to get well-paid jobs. With the advent of the LLE, it is neither fair nor right for students to use potentially three quarters of their lifelong loan entitlement for a university degree that does not offer them good returns. That would constrain their future ability to learn, earn and retrain. We must shrink the parts of the sector that do not deliver value, and ensure that students and taxpayers are getting value for money given their considerable investment.

Data shows that there were 66 providers from which fewer than 60% of graduates progressed to high-skilled employment or further study 15 months after graduating. That is not acceptable. I will therefore issue statutory guidance to the OfS, setting out that it should impose recruitment limits on provision that does not meet its rigorous quality requirements for positive student outcomes, to help to constrain the size and growth of courses that do not deliver for students. We will also ask the OfS to consider how it can incorporate graduate earnings into its quality regime. We recognise that many factors can influence graduate earnings, but students have a right to expect that their investment in higher education will improve their career prospects, and we should rightly scrutinise courses that appear to offer limited added value to students on the metric that matters most to many.

We will work with the OfS to consider franchising arrangements in the sector. All organisations that deliver higher education must be held to robust standards. I am concerned about some indications that franchising is acting as a potential route for low quality to seep into the higher education system, and I am absolutely clear that lead providers have a responsibility to ensure that franchised provision is of the same quality as directly delivered provision. If we find examples of undesirable practices, we will not hesitate to act further on franchising.

As I have said, we will ensure that students are charged a fair price for their studies. That is why we are also reducing to £5,760 the fees for classroom-based foundation year courses such as business studies and social sciences, in line with the highest standard funding rate for access to higher education diplomas. Recently we have seen an explosion in the growth of many such courses, but limited evidence that they are in the best interests of students. We are not reducing the fee limits for high-cost, strategically important subjects such as veterinary sciences and medicine, but we want to ensure that foundation years are not used to add to the bottom line of institutions at the expense of those who study them. We will continue to monitor closely the growth of foundation year provision, and we will not hesitate to introduce further restrictions or reductions. I want providers to consider whether those courses add value for students, and to phase out that provision in favour of a broad range of tertiary options with the advent of the LLE.

Our aim is that everyone who wants to benefit from higher education has the opportunity to do so. That is why we will not proceed at this time with a minimum requirement of academic attainment to access student finance—although we will keep that option under review. I am confident that the sector will respond with the ambition and focused collaboration required to deliver this package of reforms. I extend my wholehearted thanks to those in the sector for their responses to the consultation.

This package of reforms represents the next step in tackling low-quality higher education, but it will not be the last step. The Government will not shy away from further action if required, and will consider all levers available to us if these quality reforms do not result in the improvements we seek. Our higher education system is admired across many countries, and these measures will ensure that it continues to be. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches I find very little to disagree with in the questions and comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. She looked across at me as I was voicing approval, as if slightly confused that there should be agreement across the Opposition Benches. On the defence side of things, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I tend to agree, but on this higher education Statement, a lot of questions need to be raised to understand His Majesty’s Government’s understanding of the purpose of higher education.

Before I go any further, I declare my interests as a professor at Cambridge University, one of the UK’s four of the top 10 universities mentioned in the Statement. I am also a non-executive director of the Oxford International Education Group, which runs pathway colleges that in turn run foundation courses. That is something I want to come back to, because there are a couple of questions about the domestic versus the international dimension of higher education that could be explored a little more.

Finally, I feel that I have to admit that I am a professor of European politics, which puts me in the school of humanities and social sciences, the sort of area that the Government seem to be a little sceptical about. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, has in the past suggested that if we rejoin Horizon Europe we should not be part of the social sciences aspect. Yet social sciences and arts and humanities play a vital part in educating our young people, whether at 18 or through lifelong learning. The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, mentioned being a graduate of languages. Surely that is an area where we should be encouraging young people to go into higher education, to learn languages as a tool for working internationally. As a country that wants to look globally and have global trade markets, we need to be able to communicate internationally. Yet if you were a graduate of modern languages, you might not earn a high salary.

This is where the Statement leaves open a lot of questions. What do His Majesty’s Government really understand by value for money in higher education? We cannot always evaluate value for higher education purely in monetary terms. For some people, a higher education matters because they have an intrinsic love of the subject they are studying. You cannot put a financial metric on that. Also, there are people who go through higher education because they want a particular career track. They get the job they want in the industry to which they are attracted—perhaps the creative industries. They will not necessarily earn a high salary but they will be doing the vocation that they have trained for. Do His Majesty’s Government think that they should not be doing that? What do His Majesty’s Government mean by “a good job”, a phrase used in the Statement? Is it good in terms of salary or interest? Clearly, it is right that people should not be paying into the future for a degree that has had no benefit, but how do we evaluate that? Does it mean that the training needs are not met or simply that some arbitrary metric on income is not met?

His Majesty’s Government say that there are 66 providers where fewer than 60% of graduates progress to highly skilled employment or further study within 15 months of graduating. Can the Minister tell the House what is meant by highly skilled employment? That really matters for how we understand what His Majesty’s Government are seeking to do.

Finally, in terms of foundation courses, pathway colleges train international students who perhaps want to learn English and transition to being able to undertake degrees in British universities. Do His Majesty’s Government feel that they should be evaluated against the same metrics being outlined here, or is there perhaps a need to understand a little more about foundation year study? It could be about international students transitioning to the UK, but it may also be, as the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, mentioned, about widening participation. We need to think very carefully about foundation courses, because there should not be some arbitrary mechanism whereby decisions by the Government or the OfS lead to foundation year courses being closed down, thereby diminishing the chances of participation rather than widening participation.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Baronesses for their remarks and for the opportunity to clarify what feels like a bit of a misunderstanding about where these reforms are focused. Where the Government have sought to specify quality as the issue, both noble Baronesses took that to mean potential earnings, and that is not what the Government intend—and I will seek to clarify that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, started by philosophically asking what higher education was for. I am sure I cannot do justice to this, but I think it is reasonable to say that one of the key things that this Government and, I think, her party believe is that higher education is an incredible route to opportunity and social mobility and a great mechanism for fairness in our society. But we also believe that it is not the only engine—hence our emphasis on apprenticeships, degree apprenticeships, level 4 and 5 qualifications as opposed to exclusively level 6 and, of course, the flexibility, which I know both noble Baronesses support, that will come from the lifelong loan entitlement. The definition of “quality” is not earnings: the definition we are using comes from that used by the Office for Students—looking at continuation from one year to the next, completion and entry into graduate jobs or continuing education 15 months after completing a degree.

The point we are trying to get across is that degrees vary significantly in quality. One element of that is earnings potential. Because of the way I work, I went on the Discover Uni website, which I commend to noble Lords who have not looked at it already. You can say, “I want to study maths”—which in my case would have been quite a push. But anyway, I pretended I wanted to study maths and put in four different institutions and it gave me a great deal of information about earnings potential. Most of us think of maths as the highest earnings potential degree that one can do, but there are institutions where, if you read maths, three years later you are earning £20,000. I do not think that is the expectation of a young person going to university to read maths. So just understanding the difference is important for empowering the student. The same is true for law degrees and business study degrees and, I am sure, many others. In addition, on Discover Uni you get a huge amount of feedback from students about quality of teaching, student experience, et cetera. I know it is not the only source, but it is a helpful one.

Earnings do matter because we know that feeling financially secure is incredibly important for any individual’s sense of well-being. It gives them choices in life about how many children they have, where they live, where they work, and so on. I absolutely understand both noble Baronesses’ points that it is not the only metric but to ignore it is not realistic either.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked in particular about creative arts. She is right to raise that because if one looks at creative arts degrees and future earning potential, that group stands out as being lower. But the focus here is where institutions have failed to meet the B3—which she will understand very well—OfS quality metrics. To repeat, that is about continuation, completion and graduate employment. B3 does not include earnings and there are very few foundation years in creative arts, so I really do not think that is going to be an issue there.

The other point that your Lordships will have heard me make more than once is the fairness between student and taxpayer and fairness to students who do not complete their degrees and then are left with part of their student loan to pay off.

In relation to accessibility, the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, questioned whether this is going to be discriminating against other people’s children rather than our children. I remind her that record numbers of 18 year-olds went to university this year, with the highest percentage ever from the lowest quintile in terms of deprivation, so 25.1% of those children. A child from a disadvantaged background is 86% more likely to go to university today than in 2010.

Both noble Baronesses questioned whether our focus on foundation years might be discriminatory. The data on foundation years suggests that there are a few subjects that have grown exponentially at a relatively limited number of providers. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked about modern foreign languages. In 2015-16, 360 students completed MFL foundation years; in 2021-22 it was 465, so there was very little growth. Bring on those students who want to do more MFL. If we look at medicine and dentistry, the growth was very high, but from 125 students to 555. Business and administrative studies over the same period has gone from 4,250 to 35,580. There really are some examples that warrant greater focus.

I hope that I have addressed most of the points. Forgive me, the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, talked about quality of apprenticeships. I have to say that I thought she was being slightly harsh. When this Government were elected, one of the things we really focused on was improving the quality of apprenticeships. A huge amount of work has gone into that. Actually, if we have a worry about the apprenticeship levy now, it is that it is going to be overspent rather than underspent. She will know that last year it was fully spent. I genuinely worry, with her party’s proposal to give employers a choice, that we will end up with half the number of apprenticeships that we have today.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement in this place this afternoon, giving us the opportunity to question her. I declare my interest, such as it is, in that I completed an internship—a stage—in the European Commission, followed by a Bar apprenticeship, both of which counted towards my professional qualification as a Scottish advocate.

Can I just press my noble friend on two small issues? One is that the academic institutions concerned will have sufficient notice of the phasing out of any of the courses concerned and that those who might have applied to them will be given alternatives to which they may be equally suited, with better outcomes for them.

Secondly, my noble friend will be aware that one of the challenges at the moment is obtaining skills and finding those with skills in plumbing, joinery, building, construction and other such areas. Will the new qualifications to which she referred actually plug that gap? That would tick a box because they are among the highest earners at the moment.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In relation to where qualifications might be phased out, I think that my noble friend is referring to the imposition of recruitment limits by the Office for Students. To be clear, that will happen after it has judged that an institution has not met the quality standards known as the B3 standards. The scale of limit will be a judgment for the OfS to make. There could be a limitation on growing a course. At the other extreme, the OfS might judge that it is not suitable to be delivered at all. I am not taking a view on either of those. I am just saying that it would follow an investigation by the OfS into quality.

I hope very much that universities are considering alternatives. Obviously, they are autonomous organisations, but there is a great human opportunity in offering some of the qualifications to which she referred. Also, from their responsibility for the financial viability of their institutions, there is an opportunity as those courses grow in popularity. For building, construction and other areas, from T-levels through to apprenticeships and other higher technical qualifications, the Government are trying to make sure that there is a pipeline of skills to meet the opportunities to which she refers.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, the last time I got up and asked the Minister some questions I was able to be very congratulatory to the Government in relation to the Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill. Regrettably, I cannot be for one second congratulatory about this Statement. I think it is both retrograde and ill thought-out. In implementation, it is going to end up as an unholy mess.

Let me begin with the criteria that the Government are using to define quality, which is essentially drop-out and earnings. I thought the Minister was equivocating in her response to the noble Baronesses, Lady Twycross and Lady Smith, on this subject, saying that it is not only about earnings and that she knows that other facets of higher education are important. But, when it comes to the criteria for closing down courses, this Statement makes it absolutely clear that the level of earnings from different courses is going to be a factor. It is a ludicrous thing to take, because there are many areas where people are badly paid but will have done very good degrees. There are other areas where people will be well-paid graduates but will not have done especially strong degrees from the many different academic criteria that you could use. This needs to be thought about again. It is just so mechanistic. Moreover, there is a well-established system of regulation of the quality and standards of degrees in universities, and that is what should be used to try to do something about those which have low standards.

Take the criteria of drop-out. I spent 10 years running an institution, Birkbeck College, with part-time mature students where there were very high levels of drop-out. But if anybody dares to say to me that it was because the courses were poor, I shall tell them they are talking nonsense. The reasons for drop-out are very rarely anything to do with the quality of the course. It is something about the problems students face, particularly disadvantaged, part-time or mature students. It would be far better if the Government focused a bit more on trying to find support for universities which have a large number of these students so that we do not have fewer disadvantaged students getting to the end of the courses, which of course we want to avoid.

I must not talk for too long, but I will comment on a couple of other things. I do not know how the Office for Students will collect evidence about all of this that is up to date, clear and valid. It will be enormously expensive and extremely complicated, and the OfS is bound to end up with errors about which courses it decides should not be continued and which should continue. What kind of discussions have the Government had with the Office for Students about exactly how to implement this particular programme?

I will make a final point about the social sciences. As a social scientist myself, I was somewhat offended to see that they have been identified as an area where we perhaps want fewer students doing foundation courses. I do not know why that should be the case; they are popular among students who want perhaps to come back to university a little later. Incidentally, economics is a social science, and it has some of the most highly paid graduate jobs that exist. The whole thing is an awful muddle, and more attention needs to be paid to the details of how to implement this, because standards are not static; they change all the time.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am obviously disappointed that the noble Baroness did not give the same feedback as in the Statement the other day, but I am more concerned because I think that there is still a misunderstanding about how this would work in practice. I will try to go through the noble Baroness’s points in turn.

I am not equivocating about earnings: the criteria are clear. They are the new B3 quality criteria, which are continuation, completion and graduate-level or further study or employment 15 months after graduation. However, obviously, higher earnings normally correlates with graduate-level jobs—not across every sector and industry, but frequently. If I was confusing, I apologise, but we are not equivocating.

On how it will work, the regulation and the potential for recruitment limits will happen only after intervention. So the OfS will have gathered evidence—this goes to the noble Baroness’s later point about evidence—that shows concerns about whether an institution is meeting the B3 standards. It will investigate and, if it finds that those standards are not met, it will consider recruitment limits.

The noble Baroness referred to her experience at Birkbeck. On the profile of students accessing different courses, I tried in my earlier answer to give examples of how one compares some courses. Obviously the noble Baroness is right: we know that, overall, the profile of non-completion is higher among mature and disadvantaged students. However, it is when a particular course at a particular institution appears to be an outlier in that that we think it is appropriate to apply recruitment limits.

On the social sciences, let me be clear that we are reducing the foundation year funding for classroom-based subjects, among which by far the biggest growth has been in business and management—I gave the numbers earlier. There have been some other subjects where it has grown, but business and management is the outlier. We are reducing it to the same level as that at which an access to higher education course is funded. The question I put back to the noble Baroness—perhaps unfairly, because she cannot reply—is this: is it fair to ask a student to pay almost twice as much and take on almost twice as much debt for two courses that purport to get students to the same level?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, looking round the House, I venture to ask the Minister two questions.

The Statement refers to trying to deal with students

“paying far into the future for a degree that did not offer them good value”.

That led me to look at a recent House of Commons report on student debt in general, which has some terribly telling figures. The total level of student debt is about to pass £200 billion, the maximum rate of loans that students are paying is 7.1%, and the average debt at graduation this year is £45,600. Looking back at the history, I see that 2002 was the first year of a cohort with large amounts of debt. More than 20 years later, 44% of those debts are still not paid off.

So my first question to the Minister is: paying far into the future, are the Government really taking account to the impacts—economic, social and health—of now the second generation of students having to keep paying off debts, many of which they will never pay off at all, that will now weigh them down over 40 years?

My second question builds on the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and others. Even if, as the Minister asks us, we put the question of income to one side and just look at graduate jobs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said, there is very much a regional issue here. People may do a maths degree in some places, but they might choose, because of the circumstances of their life, not to move to a place where they can get a graduate job, as defined by the Office for Students. But that does not mean that they are not benefiting from that degree.

What about, say, a grandmother—the Government say that they are keen on lifelong learning—who does a history degree and puts all her time, energy and talents, when she is not caring for her grandchildren, into doing local history and writing up local history? That is never going to make any money, but it is hugely contributing to the community and her enthusiasm will undoubtedly transmit to the grandchildren and their friends. Or what about someone who is a carer; they start a degree, the university knows they are a carer, it has affected their studies at school and they drop out half way through to go back to their caring responsibilities? Are we not going to see an impact on admissions? Will institutions be forced to direct themselves towards admissions of people who are then going to fulfil the criteria down the track?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In relation to the noble Baroness’s first question about the impact of debt on students far into the future, it is genuinely very interesting—given the level of debt and the amount of debate about debt—that demand to go to university continues to increase and continues to increase in very disadvantaged communities. Young people with an older brother or sister who is grumbling about repaying their student loan know that this is the case, yet there is huge demand for our universities.

I think the noble Baroness would also recognise that there are other taxpayers. Somebody must pay the costs of higher education and currently we have a balance between the students themselves and other taxpayers, some of whom have not been to university. That is a delicate balance to strike. But if one were to do away with student debt entirely, somebody would have to pay and that would obviously fall on every other taxpayer.

In terms of the individual examples she gives, whether it be deciding to live in a particular part of the country or choosing not to take a graduate job, or the grandmother, or the carer, I do not think any of those things change as a result of this. What we are saying is, you have two courses delivering the same thing, and in one course 40% of people drop out and in the other course 10% of people drop out with a similar profile; should we not be asking why that is happening?

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her interesting analysis of the Statement in replying to questions. I was particularly interested in the questions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Blackstone. Can I probe my noble friend on two points?

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred to salaries not necessarily being a good indicator of the value of a course, particularly in arts and humanities. Humanities graduates can earn lower salaries than those who go into other subjects, but might I suggest that there is a middle way on this? History is my subject; I began my professional life in Cambridge as an academic historian for my first two jobs. But I found that many historians went into other jobs: they converted by the GDL—a law conversion course—or moved into media and the BBC, or the Civil Service. What humanities give, and I urge my noble friend to pay full tribute to this, is that a subject such as history encourages the training of the mind, which can be adapted and applied to more professional or vocational subjects. For instance, it is no accident—this is anecdote, but I think it is true—that classicists helped to start Silicon Valley, so there is not such a gap.

With regard to the point made about dropouts by the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, I could not agree more that one cannot necessarily blame an institution for poor teaching. Good heavens—Birkbeck College is renowned for attracting good students who take advantage of the flexible courses on offer, which can be taken at night. However, I suggest that we have a real problem here. It must be for the institutions to pay particular attention to selection procedures, so that applicants for their courses are suited to the courses on offer, despite the pressure for fees which most institutions are under today.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend very much for her remarks. She does not need to convince me about the importance of a history degree in allowing you to do different things. Personally, I read history, went into the City, ran a charity and now I am here. I am not quite sure what your Lordships might take from that, whether it was a training for the mind or that I just got lucky. My noble friend is absolutely right that the kind of critical thinking skills that one gets in a number of academic disciplines, including history and other arts and humanities subjects, are incredibly important—arguably, increasingly so as we move into a world of AI and beyond.

Again, my noble friend is right about selection procedures. I would say in addition that we see really excellent examples of not just selection but initial support for students, whether that be in an institution such as Birkbeck or in an institution which typically takes more students who have just left school. That is clearly very important and something that many institutions work on. The last point I would make in relation to her remarks about selection also relates to the remarks in the Statement about franchise providers. It concerns the importance of the care that we believe the main institution that is issuing the degree needs to take on which franchise providers it works with.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

My Lords, I think there are no further questions.

Schools: Absenteeism

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce absenteeism in schools.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the latest data show improvements in attendance across all phases, with 350,000 fewer pupils being permanently absent in spring 2023 compared with summer 2022. Our new expectations ask schools to appoint a senior attendance champion and meet termly with local authorities to agree individual plans for at-risk children, as well as using our attendance data to identify where to intervene early. We have launched the attendance action alliance for system leaders and have expanded attendance hubs and mentoring support.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend’s voice has recovered.

Last autumn, two years after the lockdown ended, a quarter of children were persistently absent from school—double the rate before lockdown. That means that 2 million children are persistently absent from school, falling behind on education, missing out on social education with their friends and running the risk of falling prey to drugs and criminal gangs. There is something seriously wrong here. What research has my noble friend’s department done to find out the reasons for this worrying increase, which shows little signs of diminishing?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As ever, my noble friend asks a very important question. If we look at the reasons underpinning persistent absence, the majority of persistent absence is authorised, with higher than normal levels of sickness particularly in the last autumn term. We are also aware of suggestions that parental attitudes towards sickness have changed, with parents keeping children home when previously they might have sent them into school and, of course, high levels of reported anxiety. However, we are also actively exploring the matter of those children who perhaps missed so much education during the pandemic that their level of reading, for example, is not sufficient to engage properly with the curriculum. That is also something that we are keen to address as quickly as possible.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Young, and to support his Question. I think the answer just given by the Minister is very insightful. I want to ask her a question that might be from the side. Could we get a message across to parents, particularly those who have started to believe that working from home is the norm, that when they get up, they have to get their children to school?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I know that the noble Lord will know that the relationship with parents is incredibly important. He is right: it seems clearer, now more than ever, that there needs to be great communication with parents and a high level of trust. We have prepared materials to support parents getting their children into school. The Secretary of State has just written to all responsible bodies, local authorities and trusts about this importance, including highlighting really good, clear communication with parents.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister give us some guidance on what progress has been made in making sure that mainstream schools are identifying reasons why children are failing? Often this is because of neurodiversity and special educational needs. What are we doing to improve the awareness of these? I remind the House of my interest in this area.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord knows we are working extremely hard, and in our latest publications—both in relation to the commissioning of schools and our description of what a really strong trust looks like—there was a very big emphasis on inclusivity and making sure children with special educational needs are well supported in mainstream education. To give the noble Lord a specific example, we are aware that in some areas children with education, health and care plans have high attendance as a specific objective on that plan. That is not the case in all, and many schools have suggested to me that it should be.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, children with some form of special educational needs and disabilities accounted for 24.9% of all persistently absent children in the year to 2022. Having 100% attendance may not be possible for them, yet some schools offer awards and prizes to children who have a full attendance record. Does the Minister agree this is discriminatory? It not only impacts their well-being but perhaps impacts their longer-term view of how they will be valued in the workplace. What are Government doing to ensure schools tailor their approach to take into account the needs of young people who cannot be there all the time?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand where the noble Baroness’s concern comes from. Obviously, the children I meet tend to be hand-picked for perfection, but when I talk to children and suggest to them that not all their friends are in every day, they tell me they need incentives to come in, whether that is fun at the end of the day such as extracurricular enrichment activities or reward schemes. Some of the best reward schemes I have seen are run on a weekly basis, which addresses the point the noble Baroness raises: no child feels they have fallen behind so far they can never catch up.

[Lord Sewell of Sanderstead (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest here as somebody who, as a schoolboy, regularly bunked off school. Noble Lords will be happy to know that I want straight to the library and studied medieval poetry—so that was helpful. I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister if she could give us some good practice examples and models of schools or academy trusts that have brought children back to school.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I find it hard to believe that my noble friend bunked off school—although, obviously, medieval poetry was the first thing that came to mind. In terms of examples of good practice, there is a lot going on around the country. One of the trusts we work particularly closely with is the Northern Education Trust, which runs schools in places such as Middlesbrough, Hartlepool and Stockton. I went to visit its North Shore Academy in Stockton, where they are identifying children for whom reading is a particular barrier to engagement. They then communicate when children start to catch up with their reading to the parents, so parents are getting a good news story about their child at school and encouraging the child to go back to school. That, in turn, helps behaviour in the classroom because those children are no longer bored and potentially disruptive. That is the kind of thing on which we are encouraging schools to get together and share best practice.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the National Society and thank the Minister for visiting the north-east recently. The Church of England has just published a flourishing schools document, which I know she has. Absenteeism appears to also be connected to mental health and well-being; there are particular issues around special educational needs. Could the Minister comment on the work that is being done to note the connection with mental health and well-being and improve that to help with absenteeism?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate will be aware that we are rolling out senior mental health leads in schools. I think it is really important—and this potentially relates to my noble friend Lord Sewell’s question as well—that we are clear where mental health is a genuine barrier for a child to be in school, and where a child’s mental health would improve if they were in school. When I talk to school leaders, they say it is absolutely the exception that a child would not be better off in school, even if they are experiencing anxiety or depression.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, three times as many children receiving free school meals are severely absent from school compared to those who are not eligible. This puts the UK’s poorest children at yet another disadvantage compared to their peers. What steps are the Government taking to support these pupils? The Government outlined plans to tackle absence rates two months ago. How long will these take to fully implement? When will we get the first feedback from these programmes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right, and it is an area of real concern for us. She may also be aware that there is quite a lot of variation, including between schools in very deprived areas. That is why bringing schools together in attendance hubs, so that those with a very similar demographic can share their good practice with those who are finding it harder to turn this, is something we are keen to do.

Prison: Support for Dependent Children

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration and support they give to dependent children when their mothers are given a custodial prison sentence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, sentencing is entirely a matter for the courts. However, my noble friend Lord Farmer’s review made it clear that pre-sentence reports should identify dependent children. Working Together to Safeguard Children sets out local area responsibilities to provide support and services. It highlights dependent children of incarcerated parents as a cohort of which practitioners should be particularly aware and to which they should provide appropriate, needs-based advice and support where needed.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that reply; I am sorry that she has a bit of a sore throat. As we know, maternal imprisonment affects every aspect of a child’s life, including their housing, education, health and well-being. An estimated 17,000 children experience their mum being sent to prison; we do not know the exact figures, so perhaps the Minister can fill us in on them. Only one in 20 of the children whose mothers are sent to prison each year can stay in the family home. What are the Government doing to improve criminal justice outcomes for women with dependent children, working with the Minister’s department for a reduction in women’s imprisonment? What efforts are being made to protect children’s rights to family life by ensuring in the sentencing framework that, where the defendant is the primary carer of a child, the best interests of the child must be the primary consideration?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right, of course, that the welfare of the child should be paramount. There has been a significant reduction in the number of women receiving custodial sentences, but the figures that she cites on the number of children who are then unable to stay in the family home are striking. We are working very hard, with our review of Working Together to Safeguard Children and our review of children’s social care, building on the important work of my noble friend Lord Farmer and the review of women in prison.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will recognise that innocent dependent children should not also experience something like a prison sentence. That being so, will she use her good offices to ensure a statement of assessment about the arrangements that will be made to ensure that young dependent children are suitably cared for while their mother is in prison?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Obviously, part of the pre-sentence report focuses on whether there are dependent children in the family, as the noble Lord knows very well. In all too many cases, when women end up in prison their children are already known to children’s services. That also presents an opportunity for earlier intervention and continuity of support and care. This also ties in with our strategy around kinship care and the support that a woman offender’s wider family can offer to her children.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, some women in prison are there on remand, and a high percentage of them do not go on to receive custodial sentences. Can we ensure that, wherever possible, if these women on remand have children they are looked after by other family members and that, if the children are taken into care, they are returned immediately if their mother does not receive a prison sentence?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are working very hard at every stage of the process, at the point of bail decisions versus remand and at every stage beyond, to make sure that the rights and interests of the child are held paramount. Obviously, the ability to reunite a child with her mother will need to be decided on the basis of a number of issues, most importantly her capacity to safeguard her child as well as practical issues such as accommodation.

[The Lord Bishop of Bristol]

My Lords, following the response given to my right reverend friend the Bishop of Gloucester on 15 December 2021 about pre-sentence reports, can the Minister say what impact the pilot in 15 magistrates’ courts has had on the take-up, taking into account the devastating impact of parental imprisonment, when sentencing a primary carer?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The work with the pre-sentence reports is being rolled out more widely. Your Lordships will agree that the fact that a woman before them is a mother feels like quite a basic thing that the courts should take into consideration, but that is not where we have stopped. We are looking at working more with women’s centres that can offer support, including residential women’s centres, and at the conditions in which women and babies can benefit from mother and baby units.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, we already heard that around 17,000 children’s mothers are sent to prison every year. How do we know the impact of separating mothers and children when the Government collect no clear data on pregnant women and mothers in the criminal justice system?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness understands very well, on one level we know the impact of separation, which is a very traumatic event, particularly for the child. We also know that separation is likely to be associated with a number of other very serious traumas for a child, including maternal mental health issues and substance misuse. We look at addressing those in the round, which is why we are working on a fundamental reform of children’s social care, to make sure that these children get the support they deserve.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Can we also look at the fact that 68% of children whose parents go to prison end up in prison themselves later on? Where is the prevention? We really need to prevent it happening again in 10 or 20 years.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Of course, we need to focus on supporting those children and trying to mitigate some of the terrible scarring effects of the trauma that they will have suffered. That is why there is an increasing focus on early help and making sure that we get consistency in that help. That is what we will be testing in the pathfinder projects, which we will launch shortly, following our review of children’s social care.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

My Lords, support for carers of children whose parents are in prison can make all the difference between stable and unstable home arrangements. Hence, Spurgeons has opened a family hub in Winchester prison visitor centre, linking families to all the support available to them in their local area. How is the Department for Education’s terrific family hubs team working with the Prison Service to encourage this innovation in other prisons?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend for all his extraordinary work in this area, and for his generosity in acknowledging the work of my colleagues in the department. This is a great example of local innovation, and one that we will share with the National Centre for Family Hubs, which seeks to share examples of best practice. I will make sure that it is also taken back to our work with the Prison Service, and more broadly the Ministry of Justice.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure we all wish to congratulate the Minister on her sympathy for such children in this situation and the long-term effects that can occur. Does she not feel that what we voted for last night somehow has a kind of parallel in this House, when we see that children who have been affected terribly by various tragedies in their families may be separated from their parents? Do the Government not need to consider every care for those children, particularly when they may be effectively incarcerated in a kind of prison on a boat?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have sought to explain just how seriously they take the safety and well-being of those children. Being complicit in some way with people traffickers is not the way we plan to do it.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that in some places in the United Kingdom where there have been a lot of problems, drugs are an element that needs to be dealt with thoroughly?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

A lot of women in prison have substance use issues. That is why we are doing work in those settings to make sure that they get the therapeutic and, if necessary, addiction services they need.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords—

Schools: Admissions

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child’s recommendation that the United Kingdom should prevent the use of religion as a selection criterion for school admissions in England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK is a proud signatory of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. However, the Government support faith schools’ ability to set faith-based oversubscription criteria. This allows parents to have their children educated in line with their religious beliefs. Faith schools can give priority to applicants on the basis of faith only when they are oversubscribed. Where places are available, they must admit all children who apply.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I am not sure that is quite correct. Not a lot of people know this, but children from non-religious families may experience double discrimination when it comes to selection at schools. Approximately 40% of all faith schools and 60% of Catholic schools give priority to children of families of any religion against those of no religion. As the equalities spokesperson and a humanist, I agree with the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which has urged the UK to end the use of religion as a selection criterion for school admissions in England. Does the Minister agree that all children, irrespective of faith or belief background, should have equal right to access schools funded by taxpayers’ money?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I tried to set out in my initial Answer, we believe that all children have equal access. Only when a school is oversubscribed can the admissions authority introduce additional restrictions. Indeed, many faith schools do not restrict on the basis of faith.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

How does the Minister respond to these remarks from a parent in Oldham who told Humanists UK that

“the 2021 Census found that those of no religion, and those of other faiths than Christianity, now form a majority of the population in our town. So it is a great injustice that one of the best schools in Oldham actively prevents local children from benefiting from its excellent teaching”?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

If there is a specific example where the noble Baroness believes that the admissions code is not being followed by a school, I will be delighted for her to refer it to me.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, as there is no Anglican bishop in the House to put forward the view of the Anglican Church, I remind the House that I went to a Church of England primary school back in the 1940s, when we had been evacuated to Southport. Neither of my parents was asked whether they were members of the Church of England—neither was. I know of no secondary Anglican school that has ever debarred a child on grounds of religion. They are open to all.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is not quite clear to me what my noble friend’s question was, but he is absolutely right that, on oversubscription, certainly at primary, there is no difference between faith and non-faith schools.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will probably be aware that the UK is one of only four countries in the OECD that allows state-funded schools to discriminate on grounds of religion in their admission practices. The others are Israel, Ireland and Estonia. Ireland recently ended discrimination in admission practices for Catholic junior schools. Does the Minister accept that it is high time for this country also to end its discrimination on grounds of religion for state-funded schools?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is really hard to compare the role of faith-based schools between countries with an overwhelmingly dominant faith and those, such as the one we are all very proud to live in, with many faiths, all of which are respected.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Baker that it is a great pity that, of the 26 of them entitled to sit in your Lordships’ House, there is no bishop here to defend the wonderful contribution that the established Church has made to education through the centuries. Should we not pay proper regard to that and, in doing so, accept that Christian parents should have some degree of priority if there are vacancies in a Church of England school?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I share my noble friend’s warm welcome for the remarkable work of all our schools, including our faith schools, all around the country.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I was present when the then Education Secretary Michael Gove, on a visit to the Guru Nanak school in Hayes, applauded Sikh respect for other faiths, shown in assemblies and teaching. This and high academic performance lead to oversubscription for entry. Does the Minister agree that greater support should be given to faith schools that teach respect and inclusivity over those grounded in the divisive belief that their faith alone has a monopoly on the truth?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not accept that there are faith schools that have the kind of perspective that the noble Lord set out. We work hard with all our schools, and schools work together in local areas, to make sure that those values of respect—particularly for those of any other faith or none—are upheld. That is part of our citizenship curriculum and our fundamental British values.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, it is estimated that 1.2 million school places are subject to religious selection. There is evidence of low numbers of pupils eligible for free school meals, which is a measure of deprivation, in English faith schools. Will the Minister share her reflections and concerns about the selection process that may have led to this and whether the Department for Education will take a deeper look at this?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I looked at those numbers just before this Question, because I anticipated that the noble Baroness might raise them. I am happy to pick this up with her afterwards, but the data that I looked at suggest very little difference in the profile of deprivation between faith and non-faith schools.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former head teacher of a Church of England school. As the Minister knows, a third of all our schools in England are faith schools. She will also know that in 2010 we introduced the 50% rule whereby 50% of new academies had to have open places. Has her department reviewed the success of that scheme in terms of community cohesion, understanding of different cultures and faiths, and whether we should now extend it to all faith schools?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not aware that we have looked in detail at any of those proposals in the way that the noble Lord describes, but I am aware that all schools—potentially faith schools in particular—take their role in community cohesion very seriously.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that the rights of parents to have their children educated according to their own religious beliefs is protected by Article 2 of the first protocol of the European Convention on Human Rights? Does she accept that Catholic schools, at least, are not state schools?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not quite sure that I follow. To the best of my knowledge, all Catholic schools outside the independent sector are funded by the state.

[Lord Carey of Clifton (CB)]

My Lords, as a former Archbishop of Canterbury, perhaps I might speak on behalf of the absent Bishops’ Benches. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Baker: the very heart of Anglicanism and the Church of England has been a tolerance of and welcome to other faiths. Does the Minister agree that that has always been the focus of education in England, and that we all want it to continue?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble and right reverend Lord makes a very important point, and I absolutely agree with him.

Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2023

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 13th July 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 7 June be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 5 July.

Motion agreed.

Teacher Vacancies

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 13th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the level of teacher vacancies, and what action they are taking to ensure adequate numbers of teachers in schools in England for the next academic year.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, there are 468,400 full-time equivalent teachers in state-funded schools in England, which is an all-time high. The latest school workforce census showed that in November last year there were 2,300 teacher vacancies. We have invested £181 million in recruitment this year, including training bursaries and scholarships worth up to £29,000 and a premium of up to £3,000 per annum after tax for early-career teachers in levelling-up areas. We are reforming teacher training and CPD and addressing workload and well-being.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, more teachers left our schools last year than started initial teacher training, and nearly one in five teachers who qualified in 2020 have since quit. Students in our schools are simply not getting the quality specialist teaching that they deserve. Given that one head teacher in Essex has likened advertising for a maths, science, computer science or DT teacher to “advertising for a unicorn”, will the Minister adopt Labour’s policy of giving all teachers in the early stages of their career an additional payment to help solve this crisis?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

First, I do not recognise the numbers that the noble Baroness cites. In 2022-23 there were 47,954 entrants to the profession and 43,997 left the profession. I am definitely not a maths teacher, but that does not look to me like more people left than started. On a payment for every early-career teacher, the Government believe that it is a much better use of taxpayers’ money to target that funding to teachers in those areas and for those subjects where it is hardest to recruit. I would be interested to know how the noble Baroness would feel if she were a physics teacher being offered up to £3,000 a year for five years tax-free as opposed to £2,400 for two years, which I think is the noble Baroness’s commitment.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, 40,000 teachers left the teaching profession last year—the highest since we started recording the number. There are 2,300 empty posts and 3,300 posts are filled by supply teachers. We have heard that 23% of specialist maths teachers and 42% of physics teachers are required. How do parents feel about this situation when their children are, in some cases, being taught not by a specialist teacher but by a supply teacher—a person not qualified in that subject area? Is this not a crisis, and should we not be doing something about it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I talk to a lot of schools and trusts, and I absolutely accept that there are particular areas and subjects where recruitment feels really hard at the moment. But I do not accept that this is the highest figure of leavers ever—I have the numbers in front of me. The trend over the past 10 years is pretty stable. It is only fair to look at the facts and to use the facts. I think that most parents feel that teachers go above and beyond to give their children a great education. The work that we have done to improve the curriculum over the past 10 years is a really important part of that.

[Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)]

My Lords, teacher shortages in specialist subjects and short-lived responses have been common for decades. Shortages are also currently chronic in many other countries, notably France, Switzerland and Australia. Can the Minister inform us whether the Department for Education is conducting an in-depth review of the long list of previous short-lived policy responses or examining how other countries are responding to comparable shortages?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not aware that we are compiling a list of short-lived responses. We are committed to introducing improvements to the system that are based on evidence, such as the payments to early-career teachers in specialist subjects and the improvements that we have made to the early-career framework, which we introduced in 2021, providing mentors for every single early-career teacher. We are committed to building on those policies, including in relation to continuing professional development being a core part of every teacher’s experience in future.

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

My Lords, given the Government’s ambition that all school pupils in England study some form of maths until the age of 18, what plans do they have to recruit more maths teachers to fulfil this ambitious target?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This is an incredibly important target. As the House knows, we are an outlier in the G7 in not offering maths up to 18 for all students. In everything we do in this area we work closely with schools and colleges to make sure that we understand what works on the ground. The first step will be to launch a new, fully funded national professional qualification for those leading maths in primary schools, teaching them how to train teaching participants and other colleagues how to embed mastery through their school. We expect that to be available to all primary schools from February next year and, as I mentioned, we are offering significant bursaries, scholarships and premiums to early-career teachers in maths in particular parts of the country.

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, is the Minister willing to undertake to work with Ofsted to make inspection programmes and grading of schools a more positive experience for teachers? If teachers themselves are not flourishing, it is hard to see how they can encourage, inspire and develop our young people to flourish. The Church of England has developed its own centre for education development to help teachers develop their skills and knowledge in a range of areas—every area in the curriculum—and I commend its work to the Minister’s department.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The department works closely with Ofsted and I think the right reverend Prelate will be aware of some of the recent changes that Ofsted made, particularly to the safeguarding grading.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the measures the Minister has talked about, but does she agree that one of the issues around teachers’ retention is the stress and pressure they are put under? I refer her to work for the Times Education Commission on SATs. Is she prepared to look at the impact of SATs on the well-being of teachers and students? The evidence from the Times Education Commission is that most parents wish we did not have SATs and that they put huge pressure on children, particularly in year 6, to very little benefit. Is she prepared to at least look at this again?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We work closely with teachers, teaching unions, and schools and colleges all the time to look at workload pressures and well-being. There is a lot of work going on in this area, including looking at more flexible working options and a well-being charter for schools. On SATs, I do not accept the noble Lord’s premise. It is essential, now more than ever post pandemic, that we understand children’s level of attainment as they leave primary school and go into secondary. I hear too many stories about children going into secondary without a sufficient reading age to be able to engage with the curriculum, and obviously that leads to major attendance problems. I ask the noble Lord to reflect on the premise of his question.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, arts subjects are penalised, not just through the accountability measures, EBacc and Progress 8, but through the total lack of bursaries for those subjects. Yet art and design, for example, is predicted to reach less than half the teacher supply target next year. Will the Government review bursaries for arts subjects?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We keep all these policies under review. The noble Earl will know that we have changed bursaries in response to changes in the market in a number of subjects. We will keep that under review, but we also have to prioritise where we think the gaps are most severe.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

May I make a helpful suggestion to the Minister, who I am sure would like to see the vacancies in our school system filled? We could get some extra funding to do that by removing the charitable status of private schools and spending the money on teachers in state schools.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

First, as I hope the noble Lord is aware, next year the level of per-pupil funding will be the highest in real terms that it has ever been. Secondly, the Government believe that we should build on the best that we have in this country in the state sector and in the private sector. I encourage the noble Lord to look at some of the partnerships between state and private schools to see that in action.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 10th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her willingness to discuss issues in the Bill with all interested noble Lords. I have added my name to Amendment 1, for all the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. For these provisions to succeed, close co-operation and consultation with higher education and indeed other awarding organisations are crucial.

This is a small Bill with considerable limits. We had hoped to table amendments to ensure that careers information, advice and guidance were available to any of those wishing to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill, but we were told that that was out of scope. I fear that other of our concerns may also turn out to be categorised in that way.

There are a great many unknowns in the Bill. It is a matter of great concern that the number of adults over 21 accessing higher-level skills has fallen dramatically over a number of years. One reason is the lack of maintenance support—also, I fear, out of scope. The majority of part-time students do not have access to maintenance support and that can be a serious disincentive for them, so can the Minister say whether any thought has been given to maintenance loans—or, better still, grants—to enable the provisions of the Bill to succeed? I guess that this, again, will be out of scope.

As the Minister is aware, the Liberal Democrats are not convinced that large cohorts of adult learners will be keen to take on debt, and the lifelong learning entitlement is indeed a debt. We propose a skills wallet, putting money into learners’ pockets to enhance their skills learning and competence at three stages of their careers. We argue that that money would be rapidly recouped by the enhanced earning capacity of those who took advantage of it. We know that many adults are loath to take on additional debt, particularly in these times of economic difficulties. We will support any amendments calling for reviews to see how successful the offer of loans and debt is to adults.

I am not sure whether the Minister answered those concerns at Second Reading but obviously now we have to concentrate on the amendments tabled, which largely centre on clarification of what is or is not included in the Bill. We can only hope that the Bill has the desired effect. The country is woefully short of people with the skills that the economy needs and, if more adults can be encouraged to acquire those skills, we shall all benefit. However, it is a very little Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden of Frognal, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, and Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, which would require the Government to consult relevant stakeholders and others before, first, setting out which method should be used to calculate fee limits and, secondly, determining the nature and extent of credit-differentiated activity and the number of credits associated with it.

The Government intend for all courses offered under the lifelong loan entitlement, the LLE, to use the new credit-based method for calculating fee limits in order to create a consistent and unified fee limit system. That policy has been designed in consultation with relevant higher education sector stakeholders. I agree with the noble Baroness opposite that it is extremely important to take account of their views. That is exactly what the Government have done in designing this policy.

The Government intend to retain the ability to set fee limits using the current yearly system, as well as the new credit-based system, but would use this ability only by exception. The Government do not currently anticipate any courses to use the fixed method from 2025 and are confident that all courses can use the credit-based method. The Government concluded their consultation on the LLE on 6 May last year. The consultation included a question on whether any courses should continue to be funded per academic year under the LLE rather than according to the number of credits.

Through the consultation, the Government understand that some courses, such as postgraduate certificates in education or nursing degrees, may not be suited to having fee limits set using provider-assigned credit values. This is due to variations in how different providers assign credits to these courses, which could lead to variable fee limit outcomes. For those courses, the intention is to set fee limits using a consistent rate of 120 credits per year for full-time courses, with other values for other intensities. That will enable those courses to use the new credit-based method while retaining parity with the current per-year system.

In relation to credit-differentiated activity, the Government want to ensure that periods of sandwich placement and study abroad continue to be subject to lower fee limits. In the current system, these lower limits are applied to full academic years, which makes them incompatible with the per-credit system. To enable those lower limits within the credit-based method, the Bill introduces the term “credit-differentiated activity”. This will mean that substantial periods of sandwich placement and study abroad can have their lower fee limits applied accurately even when they do not conform to full academic years. Regulations will set out details on how this system will work, including a mechanism to enable credit-differentiated activities to work for non-credit-bearing placements.

I can also announce that, in the autumn of this year, the Government will publish further detail of the fee limits regulations. This will give the sector and the public an opportunity to scrutinise the detail and plan accordingly for the introduction of the LLE in 2025, as well as ensuring that the Government can receive feedback on their proposals prior to the laying of regulations. This will include detail on the maximum and default credit values for different course types.

In conclusion, given that consultation has already taken place and that further engagements with the sector will take place as part of the pathway to the LLE’s delivery, the Government cannot support these amendments.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, for adding her name to Amendment 1 and for her contribution to this discussion; as she said, we desperately need more skills, so we need this Bill to succeed.

We welcome the Minister’s announcement that further detail and consultation will come in the autumn. The Labour Party is keen to work with the Government to make sure that this Bill is the game-changer that it could be. I hope that, once we get the detail of the consultation, we will look at whether additional consultation will need to be built into the Bill. At the moment, we think that there is merit in building something into the legislation. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Johnson of Marylebone (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 6A in my name. I declare my interests in the register as a visiting professor at King’s College London and as chairman of FutureLearn. As other noble Lords have indicated, this amendment attempts to address what is an elephant in the room in our debates. This is obviously a controversial issue, which is very much present but has largely been avoided as a subject for discussion: the absolute level of fees and tuition fees.

While it is very welcome that we are introducing a more flexible system of student finance, that is not much good on its own unless we address the relentless erosion in the value of tuition fees themselves. I have always found it a little unreal that we have a Bill that refers in its title to “Higher Education Fee Limits” but we have not actually had any discussion whatever of those fee limits.

The legal cap on tuition fees for full-time undergraduate study at most universities is now £9,250—that is barely changed from the £9,000 that it was when the system was introduced a decade ago. By May this year, inflation had eroded the value of these fees to £6,020 in 2012 money. If inflation remains elevated, it will be materially below £6,000 in 2012 money by September and teaching UK students at this level will be loss-making for many, if not most, institutions. Carry on like this and we will have stretched the unit of resource to such a point that a crisis is inevitable. The LLE certainly will not be offered, nor will much else. My view is that we are really not doing our job unless we do something in this Committee, and during the passage of the Bill, about the fact that the system as a whole is becoming unsustainable.

The current impasse is creating a situation in which we are systematically defunding our universities, depriving the engines of our knowledge economy of the fuel they need to offer great teaching and world-class research. If we want to retain our position as one of the world’s most highly regarded higher education systems, and to have a fighting chance of attracting researchers to support our goal of becoming a science superpower, this clearly cannot go on. We all know that this needs to be fixed, yet we seem to lack the political courage to do what needs to be done.

As far as I can tell, a lot of effort is going on across all parties to work out how to say as little as possible about higher education funding ahead of the next general election. I am very grateful for the support from my colleagues opposite and hope that, were this amendment to find favour, they would continue to support it as we make progress with the Bill. The amendment seeks to force the debate into the open and to flush out the extent to which the Government—and Opposition parties—are seriously engaging with this issue before the crisis in funding takes a further turn for the worse.

The amendment itself is very simple. It would automatically allow higher education institutions that deliver great teaching and student outcomes, as assessed by the teaching excellence framework, to raise fees in line with inflation. There is nothing novel about this. A mechanism to link funding to quality in exactly this way exists already in law in the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. Schedule 2 to that Act allows fee caps to be set at differing levels based on a provider’s teaching excellence framework award, subject to overall limits prescribed by regulations that are scrutinised by Parliament. This amendment would ensure that the mechanism is used automatically each year, ensuring that high-quality providers can continue to deliver great teaching and student outcomes without their tuition income being relentlessly eroded by inflation. There is nothing new in it.

As noble Lords may recall, the Cameron Government used this exact method to enable fees to rise with inflation from £9,000 to £9,250, some five years ago. In my view, we should have continued with that approach, as it would have maintained university funding on a more sustainable footing than it is at present and entirely avoided the current crisis. Gold-rated and silver-rated providers would today have been able to charge fees of approaching £12,000. The University of East Anglia, for example, would have had an extra £38 million, which would wipe out the black hole in its finances. Such a system, linking funding to quality, aligns the interests of students, taxpayers and providers, and is an immediately deliverable solution which can be implemented as soon as the next TEF results come out this September.

We do not need a big review. We should not wait for our universities to start falling over one by one. We need to get on and use the mechanism that already exists.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I will respond to Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and Amendment 5, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton. I will speak also to Amendment 6A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Johnson of Marylebone. These amendments seek to put the number of notional learning hours that constitute one credit in the Bill, to limit the default credit value to a maximum of 20 credits, and to allow certain higher education providers to increase their tuition fees automatically each year in line with inflation if they have a teaching excellence framework rating.

Amendment 2 would define in the Bill a credit as equivalent to 10 notional learning hours. As has been set out in the other place, while it is crucial that the definition of credits in the fee limit calculation aligns to standard practice in the sector, the Government plan to set this out in detail in secondary regulations, rather than in primary legislation. The power to do so is provided for in new paragraph 1B of Schedule 2 to the Higher Education and Research Act 2017, introduced through Clause 1 of this Bill.

Specifying the learning hours in secondary legislation, rather than primary, means that providers which might choose to use a different number of learning hours per credit will simply have those courses treated as non-credit-bearing for fee limit purposes. If we took the approach of this amendment, those same providers could instead be considered in breach of the fee limit rules as a whole, with all the regulatory consequences that that might bring. The Government do not intend to change the number of learning hours in a credit unless standards in the sector change: learning hours are, and should continue to be, based on sector-led standards. Regulations on learning hours will follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so Parliament will always get the opportunity to debate and formally approve any changes to those regulations.

Amendment 5 queries the extent to which the Government are prepared to fund modules of fewer than 30 credits through the LLE. As I referred to in my response made at Second Reading, and as set out in the Government’s consultation response, modules must have a minimum size of 30 credits for funding purposes. This is in line with the recommendation in the Augar review. None the less, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, pointed out, it will be possible to bundle two or more modules from the same parent course to meet the 30-credit funding requirement.

This amendment also refers to the default credit value. If your Lordships will permit, it may be helpful to provide the Committee with some further detail on the purpose of this value. The default credit value is intended to allow fee limits to be set on full courses that do not bear credits or on full courses that are more suited to annual fee limits than credit-based fee limits. For example, this could include some degree programmes at Oxford and Cambridge or sandwich years where the provider has not assigned credits. It could also include courses such as postgraduate certificates in education or first degrees in nursing. For these types of study, a default number of credits will be used in the fee-limit calculation, instead of any provider-assigned number of credits. These default values will be set at 120 credits per year for full-time courses, with other amounts for other intensities, all of which will align with sector-recognised standards. The default credit values will not apply to modules undertaken separately from their full course. As all modules funded through the LLE will be required to bear credit, they will always have the fee limit calculated using the provider-assigned number of credits, not a default number of credits.

To be clear, the default credit value applies only to full courses, not to modules. If default values are all set at 20 credits, that would mean that, for example, Oxford and Cambridge would be allowed to charge for only 20 credits a year for their degrees, instead of 120 credits, which I am sure is not the noble Baroness’s intention. We would not want providers to be limited to being able to charge for this number of credits per year.

I now turn to speak to Amendment 6A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Johnson of Marylebone. It is clearly vital that our higher education sector remains on a sustainable financial footing. It is an important contributor to our national economy, and it is something that we excel at as a nation. That is why the Government keep all elements of student finance and higher education funding, including fee limits, under constant review. We have said that fees will remain frozen until the start of the 2025 academic year. This ensures that students and taxpayers continue to receive value for money. However, we are also investing an extra £750 million in higher education teaching and students over three years to 2024-25 through the strategic priorities grant. This will help providers to fund their provision of high-cost subjects, such as medicine, science and engineering, and help students to succeed.

We provide support for the sector through subsidised fee loans. This is our investment in the skills, people and economy of this country, and one that is even more important in current circumstances. A continuous automatic increase in fees in line with inflation would undermine the incentive for providers to find efficiencies in their business models or to develop other sources of revenue to diversify their income and achieve sustainability in ways that benefit British students and British taxpayers. Despite current pressures, the Office for Students found in its latest report that the overall aggregate financial position of the sector remains sound, though there is variation between individual providers.

I remind the Committee that overall tuition fee income in English higher education providers has increased in cash terms from £13.7 billion in 2014-15 to £21.6 billion in 2021-22, an increase of around 58%, but there are significant differences in income and student number growth between providers. Some providers have increased their student numbers significantly in recent years, in particular in business and management courses, which have grown rapidly. With the public outlay to support students to go to university having increased so much in recent years in cash terms, the rapid, localised growth that we have seen in some courses and at some providers emphasises the need for us to ensure that the quality of provision remains high, so that students can achieve the employment outcomes that they are looking for and the economy benefits from our considerable investment in higher education.

As my noble friend understands very well indeed, fee income from domestic students is just one element of the income mix of higher education institutions. Obviously, there is income from international students, research fees and funding institutes, as well as commercial income. There are questions that the Government would be keen to work with universities on, and, if helpful, I would be happy to meet my noble friend or providers to think about the scale and breadth of courses offered by individual institutions and groups of institutions within an area, as well as about how the cost base of institutions will develop in future.

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[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment. I apologise for not being present at Second Reading. I echo the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that it is really important that everybody is able to take up these opportunities. The Minister should think carefully about those people who live in rural areas. Last year, I went to Northumberland where I met a group of students who have to travel scores of miles to get to the local college. There is no financial support for their travel, but one way round that would be distance learning. By not providing that opportunity, the Government are denying the opportunities they want to achieve in this very welcome and important Bill.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will speak to Amendments 3 and 6, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and also in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Addington and Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. These amendments would require that per-credit limits and credit-differentiated activity may not be prescribed solely according to whether the learning is in person or distanced.

Fee limits are not different for distance learning currently, and there is nothing in this Bill that would change this. I hope that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Watson, on one of his questions. I can assure your Lordships that the Government have no intention of differentiating fee limits between distance and in-person learning under the LLE. The per-credit fee limits will be the same for full-time, part-time, face-to-face and distance learning.

Distance learning courses will remain in scope for tuition fee loan support under the LLE. As your Lordships have pointed out, these courses will also continue to be out of scope of maintenance support, which is in line with the current system. However, the Government are committed to encouraging flexibility, and I was grateful to the Committee for acknowledging the important expansion in the use of maintenance loans for living costs and targeted grants. This will make maintenance support available for all designated courses and modules under the LLE, including those currently funded by advanced learner loans and those studied part time. It will also include—a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox—targeted support grants such as the disabled students’ allowance and the childcare grant.

Your Lordships expressed real concern that the absence of maintenance loans might impact on demand for distance learning. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, referred to the impact assessment. I will need to check, but my understanding is that distance learning was not specifically covered in the Bill’s impact assessment. Rather, as the noble Lord knows, the impact assessment was very positive overall, particularly when referring to learners who might be debt averse.

The ratio of distance learners to campus learners has been constant, at around 10%, despite the rapid growth in campus learners over that period, so I do not think there is compelling evidence that the absence of maintenance loans is impacting on demand for distance learning, relative to campus learning.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, stressed that distance learning was the key to unlocking lifelong learning. I only partly agree with her: I think the key is choice. We need to offer learners choice, whether that be campus learning for those who would benefit from and prefer that approach, and distance learning for those for whom campus learning is not their ideal situation.

On the maintenance loan and distance learners, the Government will roll over the existing exemption that enables distance learners with a disability to qualify for maintenance loans and disabled students’ allowance. The disabled students’ allowance will be extended to all designated courses and modules. The Government intend to review attendance validation more widely, and we will consider any necessary policy changes following the outcome of that review. We believe this amendment to be unnecessary, and therefore the Government will not support it.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response, and I also thank those who spoke on this group of amendments. I am happy to welcome what the Minister said about fee limits not being different and the Government having no intention to change that, and that per-credit fee limits will be the same for all modes of study. It is useful to have that on the record. I know that the Open University was concerned about the lack of specificity on that, and that has been laid to rest this afternoon.

Some issues remain on the question of distance learners’ maintenance. If I understood the Minister correctly, she said that distance learners account for about 10% of all learners taking undergraduate courses and that that figure has remained stable while the overall number has increased. I am not sure that suggests that there is not an issue. How many more would have come forward and participated had they had the support needed—the sort of support to which the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and my noble friend Lady Wilcox referred? These needs will still be there.

It is slightly disingenuous to suggest that the disabled students’ allowance is available. That is basically saying that, if you want to study and are disabled, you can do so from home, but if you choose not to study, you need to make bit more of an effort and could get to classes if you really wanted to. As we have said, this impacts often older learners—those with family or caring responsibilities or a full-time job that stops them doing that. It is in no way a defence of the current situation.

I do not have the figures to cite to the Minister on the impact assessment, but, as I said earlier, when the plan to provide this support to distance learners was abandoned four years ago, it was on the basis that the demand would not be high enough to make it viable. I do not quite know what “viable” is—has it got something to do with repayments? I do not know. We need some more information on this, and it may be possible to get it at Report.

The Government cannot use this Bill to change that because it is so narrow, but this issue will not go away and it will impact on the Bill’s effect, which we very much support, of getting more people to make use of lifelong learning. With those remarks, I again thank everyone who has contributed on this group of amendments and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 7, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, Amendment 8, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, would place requirements on the Government to review the impact of the Act. I take this opportunity to confirm that the Government agree with the sentiment behind these amendments and are fully committed to monitoring the impacts of this transformation of student finance.

As your Lordships will be aware, the Government have published an impact assessment for the Bill which includes a consideration of impacts on learners, providers and employers. A full impact assessment and an equality assessment were also published alongside the Government’s response to the LLE consultation. In addition, parliamentary accountability mechanisms are already in place to review Acts of Parliament, including post-legislative scrutiny reviews, and I take this opportunity to acknowledge the Education Select Committee in scrutinising the work of the department.

Amendments 7 and 8 would require the Government to review the impact of the Act in relation to multiple different areas. However, vehicles through which these areas can be monitored already exist. For example, I take this opportunity to refer your Lordships to the publications produced by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, which will continue to publish data on learner uptake, personal characteristics of learners, including disabilities, and student course enrolments. Similarly, data on the take-up of level 3 courses, as referenced in Amendment 11, is available on the government web pages. I also refer your Lordships to publications from the Office for Students, including its annual report and accounts, as well as publications on the financial sustainability of the sector. Furthermore, information on student loan borrowers is publicly available from the Student Loans Company.

The Government are working jointly with the Student Loans Company and the Office for Students throughout the development and implementation of the LLE. I refer your Lordships to the framework document between the DfE and the OfS, which was updated in January 2023. It sets out the governance framework within which the OfS and the DfE operate, including in relation to financial matters. The department and the OfS will continue to work together to monitor expenses, funding, resources and efficiency via business planning.

I note that Amendment 8 references the impact of the credit-based method on students with disabilities and those with a need for a sharia-compliant loan system, among other criteria. I clarify that the fee limits are set on courses, not students. Therefore, the credit-based method, like the current fee-limit system, will not depend on any characteristics of individual students. All students on a course will have their fees determined in line with the same fee-limit rules, regardless of whether they have a disability, self-fund or use alternative loan arrangements.

I take this opportunity to assure your Lordships that the Government remain committed to delivering an alternative student finance product compatible with Islamic finance principles alongside the LLE. We were grateful for the support and contributions of noble Lords on this issue during the passage of the Financial Services and Markets Act. I can confirm that, in April, I met the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and representatives from the Islamic community, including the Islamic Finance Council UK, to discuss the steps the Government are taking to deliver alternative student finance as swiftly as possible. I look forward to meeting them again—later this week, I believe.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

They may have been confidential discussions, but is the Minister able to tell the Committee what the stumbling block is to introducing suitable loans?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am familiar with what the current issue is and, if I express myself in any way inaccurately, I know that my colleagues will help me to write to the noble Lord and all your Lordships. The issue is that there are obviously very significant changes to the Student Loans Company systems with the establishment of the LLE, and sharia compliance should not be an add-on on the end. It needs to be woven through every single one of them and we are committed to doing that really important job. It is very significant in its complexity, but I am happy to set out more detail in a letter to the noble Lord, if that is helpful. I can stress, knowing what I think is behind his question, that there is no lack of motivation and commitment to doing this. It is a practical barrier rather than any other.

Returning to my recent meeting with representatives on this issue, we will continue to engage with your Lordships, Members of the other place and representatives from the Islamic community. I will be able to provide a further update on alternative student finance later this year.

Delivering the Government’s vision for the LLE will require, as I just said in response to the noble Lord’s question, extensive changes to the student finance system and the types of course available. Introducing ongoing reviews into primary legislation before policies have been fully implemented or had sufficient time to bed in would, we believe, be of limited value, if any, particularly when the Government want to focus on working with the sector and learners—and indeed with employers, as your Lordships raised—during implementation.

As your Lordships know, we often see initiatives in post-16 education needing time to scale up to reach their full potential. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, referred to the development of T-levels, which have been deliberately phased to ensure high-quality provision. There are now 16 T-levels available, with 164 providers. Over 10,000 new students were recruited to T-levels in 2022; that is more than double the 2021 figure, but there is obviously also tremendous growth potential there.

I turn to some of the specific questions which your Lordships raised. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, hoped that there would be a straightforward registration process for independent training providers. Of course we need to make it as straightforward as humanly possible; equally, it needs to be appropriately rigorous so that we uphold quality because, as the noble Lord understands extremely well, there have been issues with the quality of provision and we really do not want to go there again with these reforms. We are very committed and keen to ensure that we uphold quality at all times, so simplicity of process should not trump the quality of delivery.

In relation to VAT, the noble Lord answered his own question; it is considerably above my pay grade. On creative subjects, I had breakfast last week with a group of tech companies to talk about STEM careers. A number of them really wanted to talk about only the importance of creative subjects within a STEM career, so I agree with much of the sentiment that the noble Lord expressed on that.

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[Lord Addington (LD)]

I think the Minister covered my questions, but just to make sure that bears of little brain have no confusion about this: all the provisions for anyone entitled to the DSA are now available at level 4, and the responsibilities of the colleges and universities providing this are the same as they would be for those on the traditional undergraduate course. So information capture and structuring are required to be there, and if they are not then there are consequences. Is that right?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

That is the basic principle we are following but I will set it out absolutely accurately in a letter to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her detailed reply to this debate. I particularly welcome her strong words on the need for employer investment, which is a shared concern. I also welcome others noble Lords’ contributions to this debate. In particular, I note the strength of feeling from the noble Lords, Lord Addington and Lord Storey, and my noble friend Lord Watson in relation to ensuring that sharia law-compliant funding is available. I welcome the commitment from the Government and the Minister to ensure that alternative finance is available. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, this can and should happen; everybody on all these Benches agree that it is a priority.

The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned the need for independent training providers to be included within the scope of any review and in the Bill, including, in his words, making the process straightforward. We agree with the Government on the need for rigour in this process in order to ensure quality without making it impossible for independent training providers to apply to be within the scope of this provision. I feel passionately about creative subjects, so I am pleased that the noble Lord raised them.

I do not think we heard the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, on scepticism from learners. It is a valid point and one that was worth raising in terms of the concern that some learners may have that this may be a scheme that is here today, gone tomorrow. One thing that we need to make sure we get clarity on is how learners will get some sort of model; I do not know how we can guarantee it but this debate has, I hope, demonstrated that there is cross-party agreement that this model would work.

I feel—I think that I speak for Labour colleagues, but I do not want to speak for other parties—that there is a view that periodic reviews of the legislation’s impact may help to ensure that students do not feel sceptical about this and that learners do not feel that they need to use all the money now or else risk not being able to access it in future. I appreciate that the Minister feels that some of the assurances that we would want from a review are already covered by other mechanisms and other forms of scrutiny, but Labour is not yet convinced that that is sufficient. We would welcome an opportunity to discuss further with the Minister how we can build additional reviews into the Bill and into future scrutiny of the legislation. We feel that periodic reviews of the impact of the legislation will ensure that it is delivering what it promised, including people feeling able to wait 10 or 20 years to take up some of the funding.

I appreciate that the Minister is unable to say today that the Government would support including this measure in the Bill. We would like to discuss it further, but I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 7.

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The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, simply asks for guidance in relation to the provisions of the Bill that are to be provided to students by the Office for Students. We on these Benches fully support the amendment and would support an even wider information campaign to make the LLE a success for all learners.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 9, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, would require the Office for Students to have regard to the need to provide information to students about the changes made by the provisions of the Bill. The noble Lord set out clearly the skills gap that the Bill seeks to address and the flexibility it seeks to introduce as an Act, if passed. He is right that this is a significant change that we need to communicate effectively.

I can assure your Lordships that the Government understand the critical importance of ensuring that students are aware of the benefits of the lifelong loan entitlement, including the fee-limit system. Ongoing sector engagement has been, and will continue to be, an integral part of delivering the transformation of student finance that the Government aim to achieve. The Government will work with key organisations and delivery partners, including the Student Loans Company, to support providers in implementing the changes, learners in making informed decisions and employers in recognising the value of the LLE. This information, advice and guidance will be supported by stakeholder engagement, targeted communications and promotion to future learners and others, ensuring that the right information is communicated at the right points to aid delivery of the LLE.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, stressed the need for clarity. I remind the Committee that prospective learners will have access to an LLE personal account—I think they will be able to get it on their phone—which will support them to make choices on how they spend their entitlement. This will change the way in which they interact with the student finance system and make it simpler, easier and more accessible for those who, previously, never thought that higher education might be possible for them.

The Government will work closely with the regulators to ensure that providers understand how fee limits apply to their courses and modules. As is the case currently, providers will take responsibility for making clear to students what the cost of each course will be. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will keep the available information, advice and guidance under review to ensure that learners have what they need to make informed choices. I stress that, ahead of the introduction of the LLE in two years’ time, a great deal of work will go into ensuring that learners have the information they need.

I thank the noble Lord for his amendment and strongly agree with the spirit and intentions behind it, but as the Government are already focused on the range of information, advice and guidance that will contribute to the successful delivery of the LLE, the Government cannot support the amendment.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

A hint of agreement, my Lords, but the main thing here is finding out what so that we can figure out how it is being done. Can the Minister at some point give us some form of guidance about the level of preparation for what is to happen? When it is going to happen would seem to be the next question. If the Minister is in a position to answer now, I shall give way.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I shall be delighted to keep the House updated as we progress in whatever form is most useful.

[Lord Addington]

Mentally, I had about another five minutes on this, but as somebody who did not read the review, it would probably be churlish to say other than that I thank the Minister for her response and hope that everything she said would be provided by the department will come through regularly. I promise that if it does not, we will be back do it. Let us hope we do not have to do that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 10 in my name and those of my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox. The purpose of this amendment is somewhat different to the amendments in group 4. This amendment would introduce an early review of the rollout of the lifelong loan entitlement. We think this is necessary, given the extremely low—indeed, poor—take-up during the pilot stage. We have heard concerns from stakeholders that the pilots were primarily intended to test the IT system at the Office for Students. Although that is an important thing to test, it means that the impact on the wider sector and the level of interest among the general public remain untested.

Given that the intent behind this legislation has sector and cross-party support, I find it surprising that the Government are rolling it out without testing it fully. We do not understand why the Government have not had a wider, more thorough pilot stage of this approach. We are also concerned that, given that guidance on adult education has been severely fractured since the end of Connexions, the lifelong loan entitlement means that the Government may need to rethink the framework of adult careers advice completely.

How do the Government intend to ensure that learners and, more importantly, those who are not learners, will be aware of the changes to their entitlement? In my view, this is particularly important for those who do not have a history of further or higher education. What will the Government do to ensure that they know what options are available throughout their careers? How are the Government intending to ensure that individuals are supported in their current career or support them to make a career change?

As I said, the pilot appears to have been entirely about IT systems, not the interaction of people with the education system. This runs counter to what appears to be the intention of the Bill, and the rollout of the lifelong learning entitlement should move us to a situation in which we can treat further and higher education as something that can and should enrich the lives and careers of people throughout their lives. It is right to ensure that the IT system works; it is, however, wrong not to look at how this new funding system works in practice for those it is intended to help. It seems almost reckless not to build a review of the rollout into the legislation, and I hope, although I am not convinced she will, that the Minister agrees. I beg to move.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are so speedy, my Lords. I will speak to Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton. This amendment would require a review whereby the Secretary of State would publish a Written Ministerial Statement as to the impact of this Act six months after Royal Assent. As we mentioned in our debates on earlier groupings, the Government are fully committed to monitoring the impacts of this transformation of student finance.

In accordance with the better regulation framework, I can assure your Lordships that full and detailed impact assessments will be published when the Government lay the secondary legislation to implement the LLE fully. In addition, as is standard practice, Explanatory Memoranda will be laid alongside all regulations to detail the scope and purpose of them. The Government will publish them on the dedicated government legislation website to outline fully what the regulations do and why. I can also confirm that the Government will endeavour to publish a Written Ministerial Statement ahead of laying regulations under this Act.

Delivering the Government’s vision for the LLE will require extensive changes to the student finance system and the types of courses available. Introducing into primary legislation a requirement to publish a Written Ministerial Statement before policies have been fully implemented or had sufficient time to bed in would not, in our opinion, be appropriate. I also take this opportunity to refer once again to the parliamentary accountability mechanisms that already in place to review Acts of Parliament, including post-legislative scrutiny reviews.

Furthermore, the LLE as a policy is much wider in scope than this Bill. As such, the Written Ministerial Statement sought through this amendment would focus narrowly on fee limits and not on the impact of the LLE as a whole, which is, I think, behind the spirit of the noble Baroness’s amendment. The necessary suite of regulations needed to implement the LLE is expected to be laid more than six months after Royal Assent, given that the LLE will be implemented from the 2025-26academic year. Therefore, such a Written Ministerial Statement would neither cover as much detail as the existing plans for further scrutiny nor be able to consider the implementation of the LLE in its entirety.

The noble Baroness referred to the short course pilot. She is absolutely right that part of the point of it was to test the Student Loans Company’s systems. We are pleased to have been able to do this. During the trial’s launch, 22 providers developed more than 100 courses, which will be delivered at various points during the three-year trial period. We are a bit over a year into the trial; there are still two more years to go. The noble Baroness is right that this is a really important opportunity to test the shape and size of demand for these courses.

With those reservations, I have, I hope, explained why the Government do not support this amendment.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. I am pleased that the Government intend to monitor the impact of the legislation and welcome the Minister’s commitment to the Government endeavouring to publish a Ministerial Statement before secondary legislation is laid. “Endeavour” is a slightly unfortunate word; we would welcome a stronger commitment than that.

We could probably do with a bit more detail about what the pilot involves. There is a slight difference in terms of whether it is intended to test computer systems and whether it will be ongoing as we develop the legislation. It feels a little ad hoc in that we are agreeing legislation while the pilot is ongoing; this strengthens the argument for building in a review at an early stage of the rollout of the policy. It does not speak to me against the need for a review that would bring up any adverse impacts of the approach so that they can be dealt with at an early stage. This is another thing on which we would welcome further discission with the Government.

I will not say any more as I do not want to risk us derailing what has been a really positive debate today. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 10.

Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2023

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, as the Committee will no doubt appreciate, the engineering construction sector is broad and a significant part of the UK economy. At the heart of the industry is its workforce, and it is vital that the industry has the skills base and expertise to build the infrastructure required to achieve net zero by 2050 and by 2045 in Scotland.

The ECITB predicts that at least 25,000 new roles will be needed for planned projects between now and 2025. This number is expected to grow as other projects are deployed—for example, the retrofitting of industrial sites with carbon capture and hydrogen production technologies, the further expansion of offshore wind, and increasing our plans for the deployment of civil nuclear to provide up to 25% of our projected electricity demand by 2050, as envisaged in the British Energy Security Strategy announced last year.

The ECITB was established in 1964 under the Industrial Training Act. It has a clearly defined role in identifying engineering construction skill needs and plays a part, with others, in addressing them. The ECITB has a role in addressing any market failure through its levy and grants system, which gives employees essential skills necessary to access and work on engineering construction sites, drive up skill levels and incentivise training that otherwise simply would not take place. This three-year levy order is expected to raise around £91.5 million, based on average industry growth scenarios, to invest in engineering and construction skills. The levy will be used to support strategic initiatives to help maintain and develop vital skills in the industry and create a pipeline of skilled workers.

I turn now to the details of the draft order; I thank the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for considering it. The previous 2020 ECITB levy order introduced a phased increase to levy rates payable by off-site employees, while maintaining the same levy rates for on-site employees, across its three levy periods. This three-year 2023 levy order seeks to maintain the levy rates prescribed for the third phase of the 2020 order, currently in place, for each of the next three levy periods, and for both off-site and on-site employees. Those rates are 0.33% of the earnings paid by employers to off-site employees and 1.2% of those paid to on-site employees for those businesses that are liable to pay the levy.

Engineering construction employers with an annual wage bill of less than £275,000 for on-site employees will not pay any levy. Employers with an average wage bill of less than £1 million for off-site employees will also be exempted from paying the levy. It is important to note that these exemptions do not stop employers accessing the same ECITB support available to levy-paying employers. It is projected that approximately 18% of all employers in scope of the levy will be exempt from paying it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My thanks go to the Minister for the clear and concise manner in which she laid out this statutory instrument and what it seeks to achieve. The Opposition welcome its current continuance.

We know that the purpose of the instrument is to enable the engineering construction industry to raise and collect a levy on employers. Some years ago, industry training boards were transformed from statutory to non-statutory bodies. The CITB and the ECITB retained their statutory status and powers. We are now considering this routine order.

The CITB exists to ensure that the construction workforce has the right skills for not just now but the future based on three strategic priorities: careers; standards and qualifications; and training and development. However, there is a distinct market failure in the development of skills in the construction industry. This is partly due to the trading conditions, incentives and culture that fail to lead to a sufficient level of investment in skills by employers.

Sadly, it is not just this sector of business. Many employers have failed and continue to fail their employees’ upskilling needs, which leads to low levels of productivity. The introduction of the apprenticeship levy six years ago pointed to this fact. The Government needed to encourage employers to invest in skill development, and legislation was needed to support this encouragement.

The economic success of any country relies on delivering key infrastructure. There is a further economic benefit, and this industry provides a wide range of employment opportunities, many of them well paid, highly skilled and with career progression.

Nevertheless, there are intrinsic sectoral barriers that hinder workforce training and the development of skills. Employment in the sector is linked closely to the actual project, which means that there are high numbers of temporary workers and a lot of movement between employers. Furthermore, training costs are high in such a skilled industry and many core engineering skills are transferrable to other industries. This results in individual employers lacking the incentive to train their workforce out of fear of plundering by rival firms. There are few incentives for individual employers to train since the work is often short-term and the labour force highly mobile. This means that long-term skills are overlooked; these are vital, especially in engineering.

The ECITB is right to claim that it helps to make the labour market in engineering construction more efficient and effective. Its intention is to address this market failure by providing grants to employers to train their workforces. I understand that funding from the apprenticeship levy supports apprentices across all sectors and occupations, whereas the ECITB is specifically for the engineering construction industry, using levy funds to provide direct grants to employers to train staff or develop the skills of their existing workforce.

Employers have long asked to be able to use the levy for a wide range of training, not just apprenticeships. Does the Minister have any update for us on whether that change might happen? We have seen more than a decade of decline in skills and training opportunities, which is making the United Kingdom poorer. Businesses, especially those in the engineering construction industry, are unable to fill job vacancies, are being held back by a lack of people with the skills they need and have growing skills shortages. How are the Government addressing these skills shortages in the short, medium and longer term?

Young people and adults are ambitious for their families’ futures. They want to learn new skills to get new jobs or progress at work. However, they are being let down and are unable to find training opportunities. Apprenticeship starts have plummeted, with 200,000 fewer people starting these training opportunities. More than 11 million people in the UK lack the basic digital skills needed in our economy while four in 10 young people are leaving education without the qualifications that they need to get on.

By harnessing the ambition and determination of British people, a Labour Government will face these challenges and create a skills system that works for businesses and people across our country. Labour will give businesses the flexibility that they are asking for to train their workforce and deliver growth. We will start by turning the apprenticeships levy into a growth and skills levy so that it can be used on the greater range of training courses that businesses tell us they need, so that adults can gain new skills and businesses not just in this sector but across the whole economy can grow.

In the intervening time, His Majesty’s Opposition support the continuance of the current scheme through this industrial training levy order.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her support for this order and for recognising the importance of skills training in this area. She paints a rather bleaker picture of the situation as it stands today but certainly raises some helpful points, which I will try to clarify.

The noble Baroness asked what the Government’s vision for skills is, both in the short and medium term. I am not sure that time permits me to go into all that but I hope she will recognise that the Government have made a huge investment in skills and apprenticeships, whether that be in the new T-levels, many of which are targeted towards some of the skills demands in engineering and construction, as well as more widely, with the reform of level 4 and level 5 qualifications, the introduction of the lifelong learning entitlement and the provision of boot camps for skills—including digital skills, to which the noble Baroness referred.

With regard to the apprenticeship levy, although I absolutely do not suggest that the noble Baroness is in this camp, for the record, I feel that there is a slightly outdated understanding of the use of the apprenticeship levy. In the financial year 2021-22, 99.6% of the £2.5 billion apprenticeship budget was spent. I appreciate that, in previous years, there were underspends but, in fact, demand for apprenticeships is going up. The awareness and absolutely rightful recognition of the value of apprenticeships, including degree apprenticeships, is much more widespread among young people today than it was even just a few years ago. That programme has gained a lot of traction.

Returning to the order, it is clear from the support that the ECITB’s proposals received from levy-paying employers that the engineering construction industry continues to believe that it is right that training is funded through a statutory levy system. As previously stated, this sector is absolutely critical to delivering the infrastructure projects required to meet the environmental challenge of reducing the UK’s carbon emissions to zero by 2050. The levy system must continue to be used to help develop a pool of skilled labour, both now and in the future, for this critical sector.

If the levy ceased, it would fall on employers to determine their own training arrangements, devise their own standards and qualifications, and cover the full cost of training. Further, without the grants provided by the levy, many small businesses would simply not be able to afford to train their workforce. There is a firm belief that, without the levy, there would be a serious deterioration in the quality of training, creating a deficiency in skills levels and capacity and, crucially, leaving the sector unable to deliver key projects vital to the UK’s economic growth.

Motion agreed.