Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 3 months ago)
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Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
On Thursday I had the great pleasure of visiting Lancashire and in particular Veterans UK at Norcross. I met some really great people who provide a range of support to our veterans. One of the biggest impediments to progress is around data. Consequently, we are putting £40 million into a transformation programme that will digitise our existing processes, enabling our staff to provide more effective and efficient support to our personnel and veterans and substantially improve their experience.
Robin Millar
Our veterans and their families have made an invaluable contribution to securing our freedoms and our nation, but broadly only about a quarter are in receipt of a pension that entitles them to support from the veterans advisory and pensions committees across the UK. First, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the work of VAPCs in supporting veterans? Secondly, will he support my private Member’s Bill on 24 February, which seeks to extend their remit and expand the cohort of veterans to whom they can offer assistance?
Dr Murrison
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. VAPCs provide a wonderful and unsung service, as did the war pension committees before them. Of course I look forward to 24 February, and I will give his Bill my wholehearted support.
Ms Rimmer
Those prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice to keep our country safe should not have to rely on benefits to get by. How does the Minister plan to help veterans reliant on universal credit to acquire the skills they need to access well-paid employment?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady will be aware of the career transition partnership. She will be aware too of the special arrangements for veterans who are unfortunately ill or injured to get them into civilian life in a seamless way and provide them with the skills they need for the rest of their lives. It is important to understand that all servicemen and servicewomen are civilians in waiting. They all return to the communities from which they are drawn, and throughout their careers they have preparation to enable them to do so in as seamless a fashion as possible with the skills that they need.
James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
The Minister will know that the all-party parliamentary group on veterans is currently running a survey of the experience of veterans across the UK when claiming compensation, war pensions and other fiscal support from Veterans UK. That survey closes tomorrow. Will he please agree to meet me to discuss its findings and, depending on what they are, will he also agree in principle to any measures that better assure the outputs of Veterans UK?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for his chairmanship of the all-party parliamentary group on veterans and for the survey that he has undertaken. I am very much looking forward to the results of that survey. He will be aware that the MOD does a variety of surveys and canvassing, to ensure that we are giving our serving personnel and our veterans and their families what they need to pursue their careers and to ensure that their lived experience is positive. I am very much looking forward to what his group has to say, and of course I will meet him.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Minister will know and appreciate that mental ill health disproportionately affects veterans and their families. The cost of living crisis is putting even more pressure on access to mental health services, according to veterans’ charities. The Labour party has committed to a £35 million investment in veterans’ mental health. I ask this sincerely of the Minister: will he match that?
Dr Murrison
First, I have to correct the hon. Gentleman. He is not right to say that veterans, or indeed defence personnel, are more likely than the general public to suffer from mental health problems. The reverse is the case. However, it is absolutely essential that we do all in our power to promote the mental health of our men and women. That is absolutely right, and he will be aware of a number of projects, including Op Courage and throughout peoples’ careers, to promote their mental health. We will continue to do that, but he needs to understand that defence is a positive experience for the vast majority of people who experience it.
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
The initial headline findings of the independent review of the armed forces compensation scheme state that
“the process is overly burdensome and even distressing for the claimant due to unreasonable timeframes and a lack of transparency.”
That is but one of a number of concerns raised about the compensation scheme, all of which veterans across the country have been telling us about for a long time. Veterans, who have made huge sacrifices to keep our country safe, deserve far better from this Government. Can the Minister tell the House when the full report will be published and what he is doing to ensure its findings will be acted upon swiftly?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady is referring to the quinquennial review, which has published its interim findings and will publish its definitive report in the spring. She is right to highlight some of the findings of that report in its interim form, and of course we will take into account all of those—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady will allow me, we will take into account all of those in the spring, when the report is published. One of those things is to ensure that the system is less adversarial than it has previously been, but we have to understand that a lot of the delay is baked in because of the need to obtain proper, full, comprehensive medical reports.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. I know Brize quite well and the accommodation that he referred to. He may be aware that all top level budgets are meant to be assessing their accommodation against the Defence housing standard and will report by the end of the year. In the meantime, he should know that over the next 10 years £1.6 billion will be invested in barracks accommodation to improve some of the truly awful accommodation that, sadly, our men and women have to put up with.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
Dr Murrison
I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the undertaking that he asks of me; he will understand that. Obviously, all things are kept under review, but we clearly do value the service of those from overseas who serve in His Majesty’s armed forces, and I think that most of them have a very positive experience.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
Dr Murrison
Some 97% of Ministry of Defence service family accommodation meets or exceeds the Government housing standard. That is better than most local authorities and better than most registered social landlords. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know—I looked this up earlier—that 105 homes owned by his Labour-controlled local authority are below the decent homes standard. I suggest that he takes that up with his council.
Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con)
I am sure that the Minister will join me in thanking the wonderful team at the Defence and National Rehabilitation Centre, based in Rushcliffe, for their amazing work treating injured members of our armed forces. What assessment has he made of how the expertise and cutting-edge technology at the centre could be shared with our Ukrainian allies to help to rehabilitate Ukrainian heroes who have been injured on the frontline?
Dr Murrison
As it happens, last Monday I visited the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre. I also heard about the NHS-led National Rehabilitation Centre, which will hopefully be stood up by the end of next year: together, they will be able to provide a truly trailblazing international centre for rehabilitation and research. Obviously, this country stands by to help Ukraine in its fight against Putin in any way possible, including in the rehabilitation of its brave men who have given so much not only in defence of Ukraine, but in defence of the rest of us.
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. There is no question but that between 1967 and 2000, people in the LGBT community were badly dealt with by Defence. That is why we have set up the Etherton review, which will report shortly. Having met Lord Etherton, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that he will be forensic in his examination of the data. I think I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the handling of records, as far as we can tell, was carried out in accordance with civilian practice, but of course we will stand by and wait for his lordship to opine on the matter. We will comment further when he has done so.
Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend set out what preparations his Department has made for supporting overseas territories in the Caribbean during this year’s hurricane season?
Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I warmly welcome the announcement of £1.6 billion for the repair and refurbishment of on-site base accommodation. As the Minister has rightly said, the accommodation in both HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood is truly awful. Meanwhile, we hear that in the Portsmouth area alone, the Royal Navy is spending millions of pounds a year on putting people up in hotels, while Fort Blockhouse, in my constituency—which the Minister knows very well—remains empty. When will the MOD address this?
Dr Murrison
I am aware that my hon. Friend knows Fort Blockhouse intimately, as indeed do I. It is aesthetically charming, but it is beyond reasonable repair when it comes to accommodating servicemen and women. We are spending money on HMS Collingwood, and I hope that it will be brought up to spec shortly.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
A week from today a constituent of mine, Samantha O’Neill—a veteran who served in Iraq and Afghanistan—is due to be made homeless from a hostel by City of York Council, which is a signatory to the armed forces covenant. What steps can the Minister take to ensure that she and her three children are not homeless a week from today?
Dr Murrison
Obviously I cannot comment on a specific case when I do not have the details, but if the hon. Lady will send them to me, I will certainly look into them. Every local authority that signed up to the armed forces covenant needs to be mindful of its duty to look after servicemen, servicewomen and their families.
Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)
The charity Salute Her has reported that 133 women—a third of its caseload —presented themselves to it last year having suffered a sexual assault. They also presented themselves to defence community mental health services, but were subsequently discharged from the military owing to their having a personality disorder. I wrote to the Minister asking for further information, but none was available. Will the Minister look into the service to ensure that due clinical rigour is applied before people are discharged with a personality disorder?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and predecessor. I see no evidence that people are being misdiagnosed or mismanaged. This is, of course, a matter for healthcare professionals and consultant psychiatrists in particular, and I cannot really interfere with their diagnoses, but I have noted my hon. Friend’s concerns, and I will certainly look into the issue.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State agree that what we have learnt from Ukraine is that the future of good defence will lie in having the latest technology and innovation? Are there any new schemes we could have that would increase investment in that new technology, especially involving partnerships with other countries across NATO?
Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con)
Many veterans in my constituency tell me that they sometimes struggle to adapt from frontline service to the jobs that are available locally. It is a huge change, and the scars of service can be challenging. Can my right hon. Friend provide an update on the work of the defence transition service, which helps veterans to get into good, well-paid jobs?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend may be referring to the career transition partnership, which is normally used for people making the transition to civilian life. The defence transition service is for those who have sustained an injury or illness. It is designed to ensure that people have the support that they need in order to adapt to their particular circumstances, and that they have the best possible chance of getting a decent civilian job after they leave the services. It is very successful in what it does, as is the career transition partnership.
Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)
A recent news report detailing 14,500 urgent maintenance appointments in armed forces homes being missed is very concerning. Will my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents and me that he is taking every step to ensure that all our soldiers can live in good-quality homes?
Dr Murrison
Absolutely. It is the top priority for me, the Secretary of State and Minister for Defence Procurement. We must bear in mind that 97% of those houses are above the Government housing standards—better than most councils and registered social landlords. But we must do better, and we are bending ourselves to that task.
Draft Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.
May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes? I declare an interest as a current reservist and a past beneficiary of the war pensions scheme.
The statutory instrument will change the rules allowing late appeals against decisions under the various armed forces compensation schemes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The purpose of these changes is to align the rules for Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales. It is worth emphasising that that alignment, although it is the right thing to do, will in practice materially affect only a very small number of appellants.
The schemes provide compensation where persons have sustained illness, injury or death wholly or partly as a result of service in the regular or reserve armed forces. Claims made under the rules of the various schemes are decided by the Secretary of State for Defence, and claimants who do not agree with the decision have a right of appeal against most substantive decisions.
Before 2008, all such appeals were made to pensions appeal tribunals, which operated across the United Kingdom under the provisions of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943. Following the 2008 courts and tribunal reforms in England and Wales, a war pensions and armed forces compensation chamber of the first-tier tribunal was created in England and Wales with its own rules, made under an Act that extended to England and Wales only. The pensions appeal tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland continued to exist under the provisions of the original 1943 Act.
As I said, claimants who disagree with decisions by the Secretary of State may appeal those decisions, and they have 12 months in which to make that appeal. There is also provision for what is known as a “late appeal”—an appeal made more than 12 months after the original decision, but within 24 months.
As a result of the 2008 reforms in England and Wales, a late appeal is accepted by the first-tier tribunal unless the Secretary of State objects. If the Secretary of State does object, the tribunal has the power to consider the matter and admit the appeal if it is fair and just to do so. However, the provisions of the 1943 Act still apply to the tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Until recently they did not allow tribunals in those jurisdictions to treat late appeals with such flexibility, and tribunals could do so only in specific circumstances set out in regulations.
The Lord Chancellor established a war pensions and armed forces compensation advisory steering group to pursue consistency in the procedure for appeals across the United Kingdom. It concluded that existing late appeal processes may—possibly—disadvantage appellants in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The request to make these amendments came from the presidents of tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the devolved Administrations have been consulted on, and have approved, the draft regulations.
In 2021, amendments to the 1943 Act were made that would allow us to align the rules under which late appeals are accepted in Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales. The draft regulations seek to amend the Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeals) Regulations 2001 to remove the current anomaly and align the rules on late appeals across the United Kingdom.
Dr Murrison
It is worth pointing out that 24% of decisions made on the armed forces compensation scheme are in fact appealed—a significant number. Most of those come within the 12 months, so what we are talking about is what happens if people bring an appeal outside that time, between 12 and 24 months, and the answer is very few. If I give the hon. Lady a few figures, that will go some way to addressing the points that she made. From the data that I have, since 2019 Northern Ireland has received eight late appeals, of which seven were accepted and one was rejected by the president. Scotland has received four late appeals, of which two were accepted and two are still pending awaiting reasons for lateness from the appellant. In the past 12 months in England and Wales, there have been no late appeals. I hope that gives a sense of the extent of the matter that we are dealing with today.
In terms of breaking down by cause, illness or injury, I will reflect on the hon. Lady’s request. When we get down to these small numbers, there is a danger that we might start identifying the causes for people appealing, and it might be that that information is protected. Perhaps the hon. Lady will allow me to reflect on that, but if I can be helpful, I will be.
On the wider reforms to the armed forces compensation scheme, there is the quinquennial review that is currently under way. I expect that to report in the spring, and we will then have to make a decision on whether the scheme is fit for purpose or whether it needs to be changed.
The matter of nuclear test veterans and others is kept under review by the independent medical advisory group, whom I have met, and it examined the epidemiology of various conditions. So far, the data regarding nuclear test veterans gives us some cause for reassurance. That data is kept under constant review, given the passage of time, to make sure that individuals have not been disadvantaged because of their military service.
On the grounds for objection to an appeal by the Secretary of State, the truth is that the Secretary of State does not object. Even if he did, it could be overturned by a tribunal. That has been a consistent feature. I have asked officials whether we have any records of the Secretary of State objecting, but we could not find any. In terms of the criteria and why this is going to be helpful to people in Northern Ireland and Scotland, it introduces flexibility. At the moment, the only way to make a late appeal is on the grounds of a set of very defined circumstances. This removes that constraint and it is important to say that this is at the request of the presidents of tribunals in Northern Ireland and Scotland and the Lord Chancellor’s advisory group. This is something that they have identified as causing the playing field to not be as level as it should be and is therefore seen to be erasing a potential disadvantage that people living in Northern Ireland and Scotland making an appeal for a late application may fall under. The point of this is to erase that incongruity but, as I said in my opening remarks, the expectation is that the number of people who will be affected by this is very small, and I hope the figures that I have given serve to illustrate that.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Can the Minister clarify a point? When my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South was talking about the Secretary of State not objecting, she was referring to new regulation 3, under which it would be possible for the Secretary of State to object if a late appeal was made, but also possible for the pensions appeal tribunal to then overrule that, in effect, and make its own judgment. I just wanted clarification from the Minister, who was absolutely right in saying that the Secretary of State could not do that to date, but would be able to under the new regulations. Therefore, the clarification that my hon. Friend sought is still needed.
Dr Murrison
The Secretary of State could object, but he would have to state his grounds for objection. The reality is that he has not objected so far as we can determine and, in any event, even if he did, his objection could be overruled by the appeal process. I hope that makes it clear and that is not altered by this particular measure.
Going through the list of points that the hon. Member for Luton South made, I hope what I have said explains the position because it is the tribunals and the advisory group set up by the Lord Chancellor that has called for this—the advisory group set up to ensure that there is congruity between the arrangements in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the arrangements in England and Wales. This has been driven by those two sets of authorities, so the answer is that they would be commenting on a measure that they themselves have decided to push for. I hope that is helpful.
I think the hon. Lady’s point about consultation was reasonable, but there has to be some proportionality in this and, given that there really is no conceivable objection to this from a user point of view, it is difficult to see anything in this that could possibly disadvantage any set of veterans. I will be quite clear with the hon. Lady: our consultation has not exactly been extensive on this matter. I hope that is helpful. I cannot possibly see how any of the service charities, Cobseo or any group of veterans could object to the playing field being levelled in the way that has been described, particularly since this has been driven by the presidents of the tribunals and the Lord Chancellor’s advisory group. If there was any suggestion that anyone was going to be relatively disadvantaged, we would have to have done, as the hon. Lady said, a piece of work around wider public consultation, but, on the grounds of proportionality, that would be unnecessary in this particular case.
The hon. Lady asked about an impact assessment. I hope she is reassured by the numbers. They really are tiny and it is not entirely clear that these changes would affect those numbers in any way historically. This has been identified by the presidents of the tribunals and by the advisory group set up by the Lord Chancellor to address what appears to me to be a theoretical disadvantage that residents of Scotland and Northern Ireland may face. It is for that reason that this measure has been introduced. I hope that is helpful.
Question put and agreed to.
Afghanistan: Independent Inquiry
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I will make a statement on an independent inquiry related to Afghanistan. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has commissioned an independent statutory inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 to investigate and report on alleged unlawful activity by British armed forces during deliberate detention operations in Afghanistan in the period from mid-2010 to mid-2013, and the adequacy of subsequent investigations into such allegations.
The decision has been informed by two ongoing judicial review cases known as Saifullah and Noorzai. The claimants in those cases assert that relevant allegations of unlawful activity were not properly investigated. The underlying events have been the subject of comprehensive service police criminal investigations, but the Ministry of Defence accepts that Operation Northmoor should have started earlier and that there may be further lessons to learn from the incidents, despite there being insufficient evidence for any prosecutions.
My right hon. Friend has asked the right hon. Lord Justice Haddon-Cave to chair the inquiry, and Lord Justice Haddon-Cave has stepped down from his role as senior presiding judge for England and Wales to focus on this task. He has valuable experience: he chaired the Nimrod review into the loss of RAF Nimrod MR2 aircraft XV230 in Afghanistan in 2006 and served as the judge in charge of the terrorism list between 2017 and 2018.
A copy of the terms of reference for this inquiry will be placed in the Library of the House. The inquiry will start work in earnest in early 2023 and will be fully resourced and supported so that it can carry out its work and report expeditiously. The Saifullah and Noorzai claimants have been consulted on the terms of reference but I will not comment further on ongoing court proceedings.
The UK’s armed forces rightly hold themselves to the highest possible operational standards. Operations must be conducted within the clear boundaries of the law and credible allegations against our forces must always be investigated thoroughly. The service justice system is capable of investigating and prosecuting all criminal offences on operations overseas and here in the UK. Defence has worked hard over recent years to ensure that the processes in place to maintain justice in the armed forces are effective, and that allegations of criminal wrongdoing arising from any future operations are raised and investigated appropriately.
It was a manifesto commitment of the Government to tackle the vexatious legal claims that have targeted our armed forces over recent years, but the Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Act 2021 was always designed to permit the investigation and follow-up of any serious allegations irrespective of time passed. We will of course ensure that all service personnel, veterans, and current and former civil servants who are asked to engage with the inquiry are given full legal and pastoral support.
I hope that the whole House shares my pride in our armed forces. They are renowned throughout the world for their courage, integrity and professionalism. We are profoundly grateful for their service today, as we were while they were deployed at our behest in Afghanistan.
Dr Murrison
I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. It is important to say that the inquiry is set up under the Inquiries Act 2005, which means that it will be a statutory inquiry under the control of Lord Justice Haddon-Cave. He will summon whichever witnesses he thinks fit and potentially compel them to give evidence under oath, as required by legislation.
The right hon. Gentleman asks whether the inquiry will involve the full chain of command, the answer to which is yes. He also asks whether the inquiry being housed in the Ministry of Defence is an issue, to which I would say no. Lord Justice Haddon-Cave requested that his team be based in the MOD so that he can have full access to IT systems, some of which are at a high level of classification. However, it is important that only he has access to the accommodation that has been set aside for this purpose, to maintain the appearance and actuality of complete independence from the MOD, about which I can give the right hon. Gentleman full assurances.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about Australia. The Australian investigations made it clear that there are no British persons of interest as a result of that inquiry. It is also important to say clearly that allegations made to a television production company are not the same as allegations made in court or, indeed, to a statutory inquiry. In the light of the “Panorama” report to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, service police, as I understand it, have contacted the BBC to ask for evidence. I am not aware of any new evidence having been provided beyond that which has already been investigated.
It is important to underscore the fact that Lord Justice Haddon-Cave has been selected by the Lord Chief Justice because he is the most senior of judicial figures. With that, of course, comes the full knowledge and understanding that he is acting independently. I have no doubt that he will go wherever the evidence takes him, and that is the reason that such a senior figure has been appointed to this extremely important task.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for updating the House on this inquiry. Obviously, the overseas operations Act helped to break the cycle of investigating soldiers for historic claims, but it maintained the position that, where there is compelling evidence against individuals, action can be taken. Will he therefore update the House on what will be taken forward from this inquiry and what the implications are for the Act?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. He will be aware that the overseas operations Act was designed to raise the hurdle, in the sense that it was a commitment that we all made—those of us who stood on the Conservative manifesto—to deal with the repetitive, vexatious claims being made against our armed forces, which were causing them significant difficulty. These people have served our country well; we owe them a duty of gratitude and we need to ensure that they are not the target of repetitive, vexatious claims by money-grubbing lawyers—that is the basis of this.
None of the members of the armed forces whom I know want to see their reputation dragged through the mire. It is hardly surprising that people in Ukraine look to the UK at this time for training and for support in the situation in which they find themselves. They know full well that the UK upholds the moral component of warfare like no other. That licence, as it were, comes with a price, and that price is ensuring that, when credible and serious allegations are made, we investigate them.
Nothing in the overseas operations Act will prevent serious allegations from being investigated, regardless of timeline, but my hon. Friend will be aware that those have to be serious allegations, and they cannot be repetitive. That is the security that we have given members of our armed forces and veterans, who were previously the butt of repetitive, vexatious legal disputes. I hope that gives my hon. Friend the reassurance he seeks.
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
I am grateful to the Minister for advance sight of the statement. I declare a personal interest, given that my brother served two tours of duty in Afghanistan, but not in the special forces.
I welcome the fact that the Minister said there is a credible requirement for the investigation. Although SNP Members might not agree with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) about the overseas operations Act, I am glad the Minister, the Department and the Secretary of State for Defence at least believe that this inquiry needs to take place. However, I have a bit of a concern, which I am sure the Minister will seek to clarify. As a former member of the Defence Committee, and having sat on the previous Armed Forces Bill Committee, both of which, critically, discussed the treatment of women in the armed forces, I know there is grave concern that, when there is any type of investigation—especially if it is credible—the justice system does not view it properly.
I therefore seek reassurances from the Minister that the right hon. Lord Justice Haddon-Cave recognises the complexity of the case and understands the lived experience not only of those making the accusations, but—the Minister is probably right about this—those in the armed forces as well. Lord Justice Haddon-Cave must understand the overall complexity of the issues being investigated and take on board the entirety of them in any conclusions, because previous investigations—notably around the treatment of women in the armed forces—give me grave cause for concern.
I also want to put on record my commitment and that of my party to members of the armed forces, who play their role and put their lives on the line daily. On a personal note, I recognised that when my brother served two tours of duty in Afghanistan and one in Iraq. He and his comrades in arms put their best foot forward and did the duty they were asked to, but even they recognise that, sometimes, people make mistakes. If mistakes have been made, they need to be properly investigated, and the full weight of the law needs to be brought to bear.
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I pay tribute to his brother for his service. Justice Haddon-Cave is no ordinary judge; he is one of the most senior members of our judiciary, and he has been selected by the Lord Chief Justice for this task because of that. It therefore follows that he is perfectly capable of appreciating the complexity of this issue. I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman the reassurance he seeks.
As for the further conduct of the inquiry, that will now be a matter for Lord Justice Haddon-Cave; it certainly will not be a matter for me. I underscore that this is an independent inquiry, and it would be entirely improper for me, from this point, to comment further on its conduct. As I understand it, Lord Justice Haddon-Cave intends to issue a statement of his own shortly.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
This Minister, of all Ministers, will be aware that our armed forces veterans are acutely depressed and angry about the fact that their political masters sent them into this impossible war, where they faced an enemy who was utterly merciless, who had no regard to any conventions—Geneva or otherwise—and who was unspeakably cruel. Of course, the Taliban Government will never have any such inquiry into their own forces. I know that we have the overseas operations Act, and the Minister rightly said that it creates a presumption against vexatious claims, but I would like to tease out from him how the inquiry will have a carefully calibrated investigation, and also that the bar for prosecutions will indeed be high. Otherwise, we will inflict a severe blow on the morale of the veterans of our brave armed forces. None of them wanted to go to Afghanistan—we put them there.
Dr Murrison
I very much appreciate my right hon. Friend’s point. We have focused on individuals in the questioning so far, and I would like to point out that our principal concern is elucidating any systemic factors that have not been investigated fully as a result of the investigations we have had up to this point.
In particular, I would expect Lord Justice Haddon-Cave to be mindful of ensuring that we are compliant with our obligations under article 2 specifically, and articles 2 and 3 more generally, as we are required to be under our treaty obligations, and to learn things more generally about what went on that may help us to improve what we do. That is the reason for the investigation. It most certainly is not to pillory individuals or to seek to repeat the service investigations by the service police that have already been done, which have been externally and independently validated, if that brings any comfort to my right hon. Friend.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
May I declare an interest as a former company commander with the special forces support group who served in Afghanistan? As such, I know that the overwhelming number of people who serve in our armed forces, and particularly in the UKSF, do so with huge distinction and extraordinary courage. As the Minister said, we can be very proud of their service. They rightly aspire to maintain the very highest of professional standards and adherence to the rule of law. After all, it is that which differentiates us from our opponents. As the Minister said, it is therefore necessary that, when serious allegations are made, they are investigated, but that needs to be done thoroughly and independently, so I welcome the statement that the Minister has made today.
Clearly, none of us would want to prejudge the inquiry, but, looking slightly to the longer term, has the Minister or the Department given any consideration to the potential merits of tasking the Intelligence and Security Committee to provide oversight of UKSF?
Dr Murrison
I rise again with a sense of trepidation, Madam Deputy Speaker, acknowledging the hon. Gentleman’s service in Afghanistan. The point that he has made has been made before. I think it was made when we covered some of this ground back in July. He will know the way that this part of our armed forces operates and the difficulties and constraints under which they operate. We are going through this process now with a statutory inquiry. That is a big deal. I expect Lord Justice Haddon-Cave to go everywhere he needs to go to discover the truth and make public all of it—so far as he can within the constrictions of national security.
With all due respect, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on having a further mechanism of auditing the operations of parts of our armed forces. It is probably right that we assure ourselves that all parts of our armed forces operate within the rule of law and that their rules of engagement are legal. He will be aware of the extraordinary lengths that defence takes, particularly now and in recent years, to ensure that everything it does is lawful. Personally, I am comfortable with that; I am confident that we do that. Although I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion—we keep everything under consideration, and it will be interesting to see what Lord Justice Haddon-Cave comes up with—I am not minded, at this point in time, to accept it.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
Similar allegations against Australian special forces were investigated fully by an independent judge-led inquiry, backed by welfare support for troops and their families, to get the truth. The Minister has spoken of legal and pastoral support, but can he explain whether the UK inquiry will provide similar or better welfare support, and can he give us those reassurances today?
Dr Murrison
I think I can. As I speak, we are contacting those who may be affected by today’s statement to give them details of the support that is available to them. Anybody who is asked to be a witness in this inquiry will be contacted by the Ministry of Defence to explain what is available. To be clear, people who are requested to appear before Lord Justice Haddon-Cave will be provided with the legal and pastoral support that they need to get them through this. It is appropriate to put it on record that this statement will cause a lot of dismay and anxiety among those individuals who have served this country with great distinction. We understand that and I give the hon. Lady a commitment that we will do all in our power to make sure that we stand with them and give them the support that is required.
Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab)
Can the Minister say whether any current or former members of the armed forces have been disciplined in relation to the special forces raid in Shesh Aba in August 2012 reported by the BBC?
Dr Murrison
I will not get into that. Lord Justice Haddon-Cave will investigate the matter fully and report in due course.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Just over a century ago, my father’s house—my father was a child of about the same age as some of the children who were shot during some of the incidents under investigation—was raided by British auxiliaries in the west of Ireland in a quite violent incident. I shall never forget that my grandmother, relating that story to me as a child, was eternally grateful to the British Army officer who intervened and stopped violence being perpetrated. It has always struck me that culture and leadership within our armed forces is key to our standing and reputation in the world. Does the Minister agree that principal among the outcomes from this inquiry should be clear co-operation from the leadership of our armed forces in making sure that it gets to the truth?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman has hit the nail on the head. There is that commitment right at the very top of our armed forces that we should get this right and that we should learn any lessons that need to be learned. I can give him that commitment. I entirely understand the point that he has made and the experience that he relates.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
And finally—as I have already said twice this morning—Jim Shannon.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I do not mind being last in any debate; I am just very pleased to be given the opportunity to ask a question. The Minister, I think, has genuinely tried to answer the questions sensitively. With that in mind, will he outline the steps that are in place to offer support to any personnel under investigation, as similar proceedings that I and other Members in the Chamber are aware of in Northern Ireland have seen many innocent soldiers turning to addiction as a result of trauma and stress—I am aware of those cases personally. Will he confirm that innocent until proven guilty remains the standard for any investigation?
Dr Murrison
There are structures within the Army in particular to deal with the pastoral care of individuals who may be facing allegations. The Army operational legacy branch, for example, will be standing by to assist in this particular area. I reiterate the commitment that I gave earlier: anybody who is wrapped up in this business will be given everything that they need—legal and pastoral—to get them through this. We will stand by them. We owe them that, and I will make sure that that happens. I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman the assurances that he needs.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
The Ministry of Defence has introduced a series of measures to support our people to cope with the cost of living, including: implementing the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body’s 2022 pay award recommendations in full; capping subsidised accommodation charges at 1%; freezing food charges; and increasing travel allowances by 7%. More than 32,000 service personnel have received a £150 contribution in lieu of the council tax rebate, families can save around £3,400 per child per year through our wraparound childcare, and our people in service family accommodation are receiving a £400 non-repayable discount to help with energy costs.
Carol Monaghan
I thank the Minister for his response, but nearly 3,000 personnel are already claiming universal credit, and food and heating costs are soaring for everyone. In addition to what he has already said, what discussions is he having with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that all personnel who are entitled to claim universal credit are doing so? What discussions is he having with the Treasury to ensure that personnel are further supported where required?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady will know that universal credit is an in-work benefit and is dependent on income, family size, type of accommodation and a raft of other issues. She will probably be interested to know about the further investment we are putting into family accommodation, which will help with many of the problems that have been reported to me in relation to heating and the cost of energy, especially through insulation. I suspect her constituents will probably be most appreciative of that.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
The cost of living crisis is no doubt affecting all those in the armed forces, and so, too, will the call on them to help out during all these strikes. Will the Government reward those who so generously give of their time? I know they are assigned to work over Christmas and new year, but are there any signs of some sort of reward or thank you to those who, yet again, have been called on to fill a hole?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend takes a close interest in the armed forces, and I think I can assure him that conversations on this subject are happening across Whitehall.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
The Army’s most senior soldier says personnel are turning to food banks and second jobs this Christmas, just to make ends meet. Six months ago, I raised the alarm that some troops are having to take second jobs at McDonald’s because of the cost of living crisis. I know the Minister says he is supporting our armed forces during the cost of living crisis, but why is the Ministry of Defence still not collecting data on the number of service personnel using food vouchers and food banks or taking second jobs?
Dr Murrison
I visited the food bank in my own constituency and discussed the reasons that people use them, which are often complicated. The hon. Gentleman will know that we have accepted the Armed Forces Pay Review Body’s recommendation in full, in recognition of the work that men and women of our armed forces do. He will be aware of the very real big incentives to remain within the armed forces, including a generous non-contributory pension, subsidised accommodation and all the rest of it. He will also be aware of the Haythornthwaite review, which I hope will report soon on what more we can do to incentivise people not only to join but to stay.
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Ind)
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
As of 30 November 2022, Veterans UK has paid a total of 5,323 disability cost of living payments of £150 to veterans who are in receipt of a qualifying Ministry of Defence disability benefit. Over the past six months, the Veterans Welfare Service has assisted a total of 6,363 veterans with claims. The Veterans UK helpline has answered a total of 29,922 calls. To be clear, veterans—as civilians—are entitled to the same cost of living support offered by national, local and devolved Governments wherever they reside, in common with the general public.
Dr Huq
The Royal British Legion has issued 20% more basic support grants in the last year. Help for Heroes reports that requests for help are up by 28%, confirmed by what Ealing Ex-Servicemen’s Club tells me, which also covers mental health issues. Why is the MOD not allocating specific funding for veterans’ cost of living and associated issues this year? When will it match Labour’s promise to increase veterans’ mental health support by £55 million, to protect those who protected us?
Dr Murrison
I am pleased that the hon. Lady raises mental health, which is a passion of mine, particularly in relation to the armed forces. I hope she will welcome the ongoing work of Op Courage to help our veterans who run into difficulties. It is only reasonable to point out that most of our service community are very well both in mind and in body. However, Op Courage was designed to look after those who are not. I hope she will welcome the extra £2.7 million to expand Op Courage services to better help those to whom we owe so much.
Christian Wakeford
Some 90% of veterans who try to claim the personal independence payment for post-traumatic stress disorder are rejected, according to armed forces charities. It can make up to 50% of their income, and the rejections have left veterans attempting suicide, facing homelessness or becoming reliant on food banks. Why is it always veterans who are left until last and have to rely on charity for assistance?
Dr Murrison
I hope the hon. Gentleman was listening to and approved of my earlier answers on the support that Government are giving to our armed forces community. I hope he will take note, because it is important to understand the facts around suicide and mental health in the armed forces community. If he is not familiar with the recent Manchester University study on suicide, he may be interested to read it. I will be more than happy to send him a copy or arrange a briefing.
Rebecca Long Bailey
Veterans charities are reporting huge increases in demand for basic support grants. Indeed, a recent survey by Help for Heroes found that 82% of respondents were worried about the cost of living, with one in eight having to use a food bank in the past 12 months. The Royal British Legion reports that 14% of veterans aged 65 or over have turned off their heating to save money even when it is too cold. Can the Minister assure me that he is providing support to those services delivered by veterans charities to ensure that veterans and their families across the country can access cost of living support?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady takes a very close interest in these matters, for which I am grateful. Of course the MOD works closely with service charities, with whom we have an almost constant dialogue in terms of their caseload to ensure that we do the best we can for our veterans. It is worth bearing in mind that veterans are civilians and are entitled to the same Government initiatives to ease their position in the current crisis as any other member of general public, as I said in my earlier remarks.
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
Veterans and their families have made immense sacrifices for our country’s safety, but, in the run-up to Christmas, we have veterans hit by increased mortgage costs and rising bills, tens of thousands of veterans claiming universal credit and many reliant on charitable grants just to get by. It is not good enough. How can the Minister expect us to believe that his Government will make the UK the best place in the world in which to be a veteran when they are leaving many veterans and their families to struggle this Christmas?
Dr Murrison
I detect a theme in the line of questioning. I have to draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the remarks that I made earlier and to the package of assistance that the Government have provided for all citizens. The focus of defence, of course, in accordance with the military covenant, must be to ease the condition of people who have suffered specifically as a result of their service in the armed forces, which, although most members of our armed forces community are robust mentally and physically, means that particular attention must be paid to those who may have been damaged in some way physically or mentally by virtue of their service. That is what we are resolved to do, and hence, in particular, our support for Op Courage.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
This is an important question and I thank my hon. Friend for it. Defence continues to improve the experiences of Defence women by introducing flexible service, working to improve health, instigating zero-tolerance policies on unacceptable sexual behaviours, launching the Defence Serious Crime Unit on 5 December and creating an independent bullying and harassment helpline. Defence Ministers and officials meet the servicewomen’s networks regularly. We have made progress, but we know that we must do more and continue to press ahead to make the armed forces the best place to work for women.
Cherilyn Mackrory
Next year, Falmouth in my constituency will host national Armed Forces Day. Following the success of last year’s G7, we hope that it will be yet another momentous occasion for Cornwall and that one of its lasting legacies will be that women and girls across Cornwall will be inspired to join the armed forces. I thank the Minister for his answer, but can he tell me to what extent the focus on inclusivity is resulting in better retention of women in the armed forces?
Dr Murrison
I agree with my hon. Friend and look forward to Armed Forces Day in Falmouth. Women are, of course, an integral part of our armed forces and Defence remains committed to improving their lived experience. In a competitive age, our advantage derives from the talent and skills of our people. We really must attract, recruit and retain people from the broadest base possible. Not only is that the right thing to do, but it is mission-critical to our operational effectiveness. We are committed to making the changes required to create a more inclusive environment for all women to pursue long and successful careers—including my two serving daughters.
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
Absolutely. Our cadet forces do a wonderful job and I congratulate PO Mack.
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)
Defence accommodation maintenance contracts that work on a fix-it-when-it-breaks basis ignore preventive maintenance, create perverse incentives—the longer a repair is left, the greater the damage and the bigger the cost—and too often remove the ability of accommodation users to look after their homes. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time we looked at those contracts again?
Dr Murrison
I am sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says and he can be sure that my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement and I are looking closely at the FDIS—future defence infrastructure services—contract right now.
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
Dr Murrison
I hope that the hon. Lady will be aware of the career transition pathway, an innovation that eases people’s passage from the armed forces into the veteran community. Let us be clear: most members of our armed forces transition perfectly well. Some need help, and the career transition pathway is designed to provide that.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
According to the Department’s own figures 45% of military personnel in single accommodation in Cheshire are living in substandard accommodation, and that is 4,000 families nationally. That is appalling; are these really homes fit for heroes and what is the Minister going to do about it?
Dr Murrison
I do not recognise those figures but I do recognise the fact that 90% of people living in service family accommodation live in homes that are at or above the Government’s decent homes standards. The MOD aspires to decent homes plus and, this year alone, is investing £176 million in upgrading service family accommodation.
Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)
My constituency has welcomed Ukrainian families with open arms. What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the effectiveness of Ukrainian defence against the evil Russian forces invading the country?
Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)
I welcome the recent changes to the service complaints system, including separating alleged victims from perpetrators during criminal investigations, but can the Minister explain how he plans to implement the latter in restrictive services such as the submarine service?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend who has done so much to advance the cause of women in the armed forces. She will be aware of the two current inquiries into behaviour on submarines and I am not going to prejudice their outcomes. I expect them to make their recommendations and will report on them to the House as soon as I can.
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware of a resolution recently passed by the Russian Duma that no vessel whether merchant or Royal Navy should pass through the waters to the north of Russia without both permission from the Russians and Russian personnel on board. Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to reassure me that if a Royal Navy vessel of any kind wants to transit through the northern sea route, either above the water or beneath it, we will do so without let or hindrance from the Russian Federation?
Pilot Officer William McMullen: Posthumous Recognition
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) on securing the debate and providing such a powerful tribute to Royal Canadian Air Force Pilot Officer William McMullen. In every sense of the word, he was a hero. The insight that my hon. Friend has provided of a man prepared to stay at the controls of his burning Lancaster bomber to the very last, saving both the lives of his crew and the lives of Darlington residents, is poignant and inspiring. How many finding themselves in such an unimaginable situation would be likely to act in the same selfless manner? All who have been privileged to hear this debate will now have the details of the events of 13 January 1945 etched firmly in their minds.
I know that my hon. Friend has long been a passionate advocate for the posthumous medallic recognition by the United Kingdom of Pilot Officer McMullen. Indeed, he has written with equal passion stating his case on behalf of his constituency. I have no doubt about the great importance of Pilot Officer McMullen to the people of Darlington, especially to those families who would have been living in the homes of Yarm Road, whose roofs were scraped by the undercarriage of the plane on its final descent. No praise can be high enough for his actions that day.
My hon. Friend outlined three aims for today’s important debate: to tell Pilot Officer McMullen’s story of sacrifice; to ensure his actions and memory are on the record of this House; and to ask that Pilot Officer McMullen received posthumous medallic recognition. I hope he considers his immediate objectives met, but I must turn now to his specific question about posthumous medallic recognition. There are a number of points I need to make. In doing so, I would like to say that in my hon. Friend’s place I, too, have in the past been part of a campaign to secure medallic recognition for individuals whom I felt had not been recognised sufficiently well during their lifetime, so I am sympathetic.
I am loth to be the stony, unyielding face of the bureaucracy, but the fact is that British awards—that is to say, gallantry awards—are not granted retrospectively. There is good reason for that, and I am sure my hon. Friend will understand. Action is not taken more than five years after the event in question. Neither this Government nor any previous Government have departed from that general rule. Next, all significant battles and operations which took place during the second world war were discussed in great detail after the war had ended. In June 1946, it was recommended that that no further recommendations for gallantry awards arising from service during the war would be considered after 1950. Decisions were made by those concerned at the time to the best of their ability, on the basis of all the evidence before them, and, in the great majority of cases, their very considerable experience of conflict and the application of the honours system. The decision was approved by His Majesty King George VI, whose ruling remains in force today. Finally, and in any event, since Pilot Officer McMullen was Canadian, any further recognition due to him in the form of a posthumous medal would, this far out, be a matter for the Canadian Government.
Mr Deputy Speaker, 55,573 Bomber Command air crew lost their lives during world war two. As time passes and the rawness recedes, we risk forgetting the enormous deeds of sacrifice and service that lay behind those numbers, and what those lives meant to the loved ones they left behind. Sadly, far too many individuals who served did not receive formal recognition, but, as this debate reminds us, that does not mean that their heroism should be forgotten—very far from it. Today, the RAF Bomber Command memorial in Green Park in London, which was unveiled a decade ago, stands as a stirring tribute to both the pilots and ground crews who made the ultimate sacrifice. However, it feels right that the people of Darlington have also erected a specific memorial dedicated to Pilot Officer McMullen, and that McMullen Road in the town is named in his honour. I know his daughter has visited since then, and I hope she was assured that her father’s sacrifice has not been forgotten by those who have every reason to be grateful to him.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the opportunity he has provided today to raise awareness of Pilot Officer McMullen’s inspiring deeds some 77 years ago. Thanks to his efforts, they are now firmly and indelibly written into the parliamentary record. He has also afforded us the opportunity once more to recognise and pay tribute to the herculean efforts of our finest generation in defence of our freedoms. Pilot Officer McMullen joined 428 Squadron, and its motto was “Usque ad finem”, or “To the very end.” William McMullen unquestionably kept that promise.
It is perhaps also worth noting that the plaque my hon. Friend mentioned as being situated in the entrance to the memorial hall at Darlington Hospital reads:
“His life beside the many he regarded as nought. Selfless, he lived this token quite unsought.”
Seventy-seven years on, William S. McMullen of British Columbia remains an inspiration to the RAF, to the people of Darlington and to the whole United Kingdom and Canada. As my hon. Friend so eloquently expressed, his name will now remain on the record in the annals of this House as a permanent tribute to his heroism.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Peter, I have chaired many Adjournment debates, but none better than today’s. The word “hero” is bandied around and abused, but not in William McMullen’s case. I thank you for bringing it to our attention. As the Minister said, he has now been properly recognised in Parliament and his name will live on in Hansard. I am sure you will send a copy to the family with the love of every Member of Parliament.
Question put and agreed to.
Service Personnel and Veterans: Rehabilitation
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I thank the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) for her contribution this evening. She has raised a number of issues. I think there is a great deal of common ground, and I salute her for all her efforts in promoting the welfare of the men and women of our armed forces, our veterans and, in particular, those who require the services of our rehabilitation services.
There is, of course, a raft of support available to our personnel, rightly, to veterans and to their families. In the short time that I have available to me, I will try to outline, in response to the hon. Lady’s comments, some of those as best I can.
Let me start by summarising our rehabilitation offer for serving personnel. Our aim here is to return our regulars and our reserves to active duty as soon as possible. To that end, the MOD’s Defence Medical Services, which I used to be a part of, provides a tiered service, extending from the more minor to the most severe injuries.
First, our primary care rehabilitation facilities offer physiotherapy and exercise rehabilitation—fairly straightforward things. Should additional clinical decision making and diagnostics be required, referral to one of the 13 regional rehabilitation units across the UK is possible. They offer rapid access to imaging services and residential rehabilitation for those with moderate musculoskeletal injuries. When it comes to complex musculoskeletal disorders, complex trauma and issues related to joint and soft tissue disease, patients are transferred to the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre in Stanford Hall—known to many hon. and right hon. Members as its previous incarnation, Headley Court in Surrey. DMRC also supports small groups of veterans who require prosthetics through its complex prosthetic assessment clinic.
Since May 2020, a total of 16 patients have attended this service and, since March 2022, eight veterans have undergone cutting-edge direct skeletal fixation surgery for prosthesis before receiving rehabilitation at DMRC. Notably, this clinic is a joint MOD and NHS England endeavour, highlighting how partnership is a key feature of our military healthcare landscape these days.
Another example of this partnership is our defence recovery capability. This MOD-led initiative is run in conjunction with Help for Heroes, the Royal British Legion and Erskine Homes. The care it provides is centred around an individual recovery plan, integrating all aspects of recovery, including medical care, welfare, housing, education, reskilling, work placements and employment issues.
Again, those with more serious conditions can access one of our specialist regional personnel recovery units, receiving one-to-one support from a personnel recovery officer. In our major garrisons, there are personnel recovery centres, such as the naval service recovery centre in Plymouth. I should be clear that these are not hospitals, rehabilitation or physiotherapy centres, but conducive military environments designed to speed up recovery. Indeed, they provide not just residential capacity, but specially designed courses and, in the case of the Battle Back Centre at Lilleshall, adaptive support and adventure training to rebuild confidence shattered by trauma, which touches on the hon. Lady’s oral question to me on 7 November.
Hon. Members will be aware that, unfortunately, the impact of covid-19 precipitated Help for Heroes’ withdrawal from the PRCs in Colchester, Catterick, Tidworth and the NSRC in Plymouth in 2021. However, I reassure colleagues that the MOD has since stepped in to take ownership of these recovery centres and will continue to operate alongside the Royal British Legion and Erskine Homes for the Battle Back Centre and Edinburgh PRC.
I briefly turn to the rehabilitation that we offer to veterans, which is the second part of the hon. Lady’s Adjournment debate today. As of 1 July 2022, some 3% of the UK regular trained armed forces were in recovery, while some 70% seen in recovery returned to duty. The medical care our people receive is world class but, inevitably, not all who receive support can return to work. Nevertheless, we retain a duty of care to all veterans who selflessly serve our nation. The offer begins with our career transition partnership, which plays a critical role in smoothing the transition from military to civilian life. The full core resettlement programme is available to all medically discharged service leavers regardless of service length and is accessible to personnel two years prior to and two years after discharge.
There is also a bespoke service, known as CTP Assist, for the most vulnerable leavers, which is tailored to the individual needs of the client. Hon. Members will be aware that, in the past, service veterans received variable levels of support due to a complex, overlapping patchwork of provision.
Tonia Antoniazzi
I appreciate the information the Minister is giving us. On the point about training, is the training subject to any kind of review or standards, such as Ofsted?
Dr Murrison
What we do in Defence is probably world-beating—I would like to think so—but Ofsted is involved in assessing training throughout Defence, including in phase 1 and phase 2 establishments. In general, Ofsted’s reviews have been pretty positive, and I am more than happy to share them with the hon. Lady if she would like me to.
I could not possibly conclude a debate such as this without mentioning Operation Courage. Launched in April 2019, the service helps veterans to recover from the hidden harms that conflict inflicts on mind and body. I know the hon. Lady is well aware of that.
Alongside Op Courage is our veteran trauma network, which offers veterans support for service-related physical healthcare problems. The network comprises 18 NHS veteran trauma centres and NHS specialist units, each with its own military and civilian expertise. I accept that that is not enough, and we are working on more to come, in particular a £5 million research fund. This area is a fruitful one for further research to improve the offer we are able to make to our servicepeople and veterans, and in particular to develop innovative surgical techniques, improve rehabilitation from blast injuries and adapt intervention technologies for mild traumatic brain injury, among other things.
I must briefly mention the creation of the National Rehabilitation Centre, which is very exciting. Working alongside the national health service, it will be a 70-bed specialist clinic unit bringing patient care, research, and training and education under one roof. I pay tribute to the former vice-chief of the defence staff, General Sir Tim Granville-Chapman, for his work in that area. I look forward to the NRC’s opening formally in 2024, but in the meantime there is much collaboration between the DMRC and the NRC.
On the point the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) made about IPC4V, he seemed to suggest it was going to be closed down or downgraded, but I can assure him that is not the case. It was only launched in March 2019. He is right to mention Ben Parkinson as an exemplar, and I can reassure him about our commitment to it; we are even scoping extending the reach of the scheme, if that is of any help to him. I am more than happy to discuss the matter with him further.
Dan Jarvis
I am grateful to the Minister for the response he has just provided. I know he takes these matters very seriously. Does he recall seeing an important piece in The Sunday Times a couple of months ago, written by David Collins, which raised specific concerns about the support provided to the most seriously injured veterans? I wrote to his predecessor about it and would obviously be very happy to write to him about it too. I just ask him to look at the points flagged in that article and satisfy himself that the necessary provision is in place for people such as Ben Parkinson.
Dr Murrison
I do not recognise the piece of correspondence that the hon. Gentleman describes, but I will ask for it to be presented to me and I will certainly be more than happy to discuss it with him.
Finally, we will strive to make this place the best in the world to be a veteran while offering the gold standard in rehabilitation services for all those who serve. When the call came, they answered. In their hour of need we must do the same.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Armed Forces (Tri-Service Serious Crime Unit) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2022
Draft Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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The Chair
Thank you. I will now call the Minister to move the first motion and speak to both instruments. At the end of the debate, I will put the question on the first motion, then ask the Minister to move the second motion formally.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Armed Forces (Tri-Service Serious Crime Unit) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2022.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022.
Dr Murrison
On the point of order, the impact assessment we have been provided with is fascinating—indeed, it could be more fascinating than the subject matter of this debate. However, the explanatory notes to the statutory instruments state:
“A full impact assessment has not been prepared for this instrument as no, or no significant, impact on the private, voluntary or public sectors is foreseen.”
There is no impact assessment, but it is nice to see this particular impact assessment, as it looks very interesting indeed.
There are two statutory instruments for the Committee to consider.
Maria Eagle
The explanatory notes say that
“A full impact assessment has not been prepared for this instrument”,
which suggests that some kind of work has been done on the impact. Is the Minister able to give the Committee a copy of what impact has been assessed—not a full one, but a partial one?
Dr Murrison
I think this might be a matter of semantics, but I can tell the hon. Lady that no impact assessment has been published or produced. I hope that is satisfactory, and I hope that in my remarks, I will be able to clarify why that is and reassure her that there is no need for such an exercise, if that is of any help.
The first of the SIs we are debating today is to establish the tri-service serious crime unit; the second deals with changes to court martial rules in the service justice system. The first SI makes a minor consequential amendment to regulation 8(1) of the Armed Forces Regulations 2009, which in turn was made under the Armed Forces Act 2006. That change is required to support the establishment of the defence serious crime unit, otherwise known as the DSCU. It does so by ensuring that the new Provost Marshal and service police personnel of that tri-service unit are governed by the same legislation as the existing three single-service Provosts Marshal and single-service police forces.
The instrument amends regulation 8(1) to include any reports prepared by, or provided to, the tri-service crime unit to be provided to a person’s commanding officer when referring that person’s case to the Director of Service Prosecutions. This is not new; it is simply something that has arisen as a consequence of the creation of the defence serious crime unit. Although this is only a minor and consequential amendment, the original set of regulations it amends is subject to the affirmative procedure, meaning that this SI must also follow that procedure.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Page 3 of the explanatory memorandum—item 10, “Consultation outcome”—says that there was “no formal consultation”. It does, however, say that
“A range of stakeholders have been consulted”,
so could the Minister say what the Provosts Marshal said by way of response?
Dr Murrison
I saw the Provost Marshal of the defence serious crime unit last week, and the regulations have been worked up by, among others, the Provost Marshal’s service. As I will go on to explain, although I hope it is not controversial, the Armed Forces Act 2021 establishes something quite new and innovative and, as a consequence of the Lyons and Henriques reports, a unit for serious crime. The Provost Marshal, among others, was consulted in the process of drawing up the Armed Forces Act and the regulations that stem from it, which we are debating today. They have not arisen de novo. They are the result of widespread consultation to make sure we get this right. I will come on to this later, but they align what happens in defence more closely with what happens in civilian policing and prosecutorial institutions. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman.
I will provide an update on what is happening in the formation of the DSCU if it is of interest to the Committee. A lot of this will not be new to the Committee, but it is worth covering it. Those who were involved in the Armed Forces Act will be familiar with it. Nevertheless, it is important that the Committee is apprised of where we are with the organisation that is about to be stood up.
The Armed Forces Act set out a framework for the establishment of a tri-service serious crime unit for service police and enabled the appointment of a new Provost Marshal. Under the direction of the new Provost Marshal, who was appointed in January and whom I met last week, the MOD has undertaken the necessary prep work for the new tri-service unit to become operational next month. The work has focused on the structure and resourcing of the DSCU and has included the establishment of a defence serious crime command—a strategic command headquarters for the DSCU based at Southwick Park, Fareham, which is home to the Defence School of Policing and Guarding. It has been operational since April.
The defence serious crime command will sit outside the single-service chain of command, ensuring operational independence, giving greater reassurance to victims and building trust in service justice. It will provide strategic direction to the DSCU, allowing the unit to focus on the delivery of serious crime policing. One strategic aim is to improve the capability of defence to deal with the most serious offences. Reservist service police, the majority of whom are civilian police officers, will be better utilised, lending their experience and knowledge, in keeping with a general trend in the use of reservists, which I commend to the Committee, while fessing up that I am myself a reservist.
For staff joining the DSCU, external placements with Home Office police forces will be used, and there will be a continued focus on building single-area specialisms as part of career development. That will be supported by the adoption of civilian policing qualifications in accordance with College of Policing and National Police Chiefs’ Council guidance. I hope right hon. and hon. Members have spotted a theme in benchmarking best practice and ironing out the potential for discrepancies, to which I am committed.
Maria Eagle
It is very welcome news that the unit is about to be stood up next month. Can the Minister give the Committee an idea of what the staffing capacity will be? It is good to have the unit, but it has only a couple of people and has to wait for embedded reservists to be trained up. That might not be as effective as we would wish, so can he give us an idea of its budget and staffing capacity?
Dr Murrison
The thing will be stood up on 5 December. I confess I have not visited it yet, but I intend to do so very soon. It will have very senior service policemen plus support staff. I cannot give the hon. Lady a figure, but it will be pretty comprehensive. It will include reservists because they are in large part civilian policemen. Although some police choose to join the reserves and become something completely different, the bulk of them continue to serve as police. There is no question of training them up; they are trained already, and the flow of expertise is the other way round, that is to say, from the reservist police to the defence serious crime unit. That comes back to my earlier remark about the need to ensure that we have a level playing field, and that best practice in the service criminal justice sector and the civilian criminal justice sector are broadly speaking the same. I have no reason to suppose that they are not, and Henriques, and before him Lyons and Murphy, suggested that they are.
Nevertheless, it is important that the two sectors operate more or less on the same level, and in particular that some of our service police are exposed to College of Policing disciplines. That is one of the intentions behind the formation of the unit. There will be training— that is ongoing—but I would not want to suggest to the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood that we need to train people specifically for this task. For the most part, they will be doing this already. It is just that we are standing up this separate unit to deal with serious crime. That recommendation stems directly from Lyons, Murphy and Henriques. I hope that that is of some help.
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that it was excellent news that a former Policing Minister changed the rules so that serving police officers could serve in the reserves, and bring that expertise across—not that I, a former Policing Minister, would have any knowledge of that?
Dr Murrison
My right hon. Friend knows a lot about the issue; indeed, he is too modest, and I entirely agree with the point that he makes. In the time that it has taken him to make his intervention, my extremely good officials have told me that the answer to the question from the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood is approximately 370, which is good. There is significant resource being put into this. I look forward to meeting some of them when I visit Southwick Park very shortly.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I am glad to see the Minister back in position. He has had more comebacks than Frank Sinatra, but I hope that he is in post for a decent time. I think the purpose of regulations is to require the new tri-service police force to provide a copy of any reports to the commanding officer of those accused of serious crimes. That does not sound very similar to how civilian police forces operate. Will the Minister explain that requirement and what advantages it has? Is there any risk that the person might be tipped off, and that that might hamper the investigation?
Dr Murrison
I thought that somebody might ask that, so I asked my officials before coming to Committee. This is a consequential statutory instrument, which simply replicates what is currently the practice under the Armed Forces Act 2021. Without it, the new defence serious crime unit would not be doing the things that service police are already doing. One could argue that commanding officers should not be provided with reports about people under their command. However, in the 2021 Act and its predecessor, the Armed Forces Act 2006, Parliament decided that such a report should be provided. That is the reason we are doing this now, and changing primary legislation is not the function of this Committee. I am sorry if that is an unsatisfactory response to my hon. Friend, but I am very pleased he asked the question because, as I said, I had asked the same.
I think that the Committee will be interested in the victim and witness care unit, which will be set up under the DSCU. The unit will deliver support to victims and witnesses of crime. The unit is being developed in consultation with specialist external organisations, such as the Survivors Trust and the office of the Victims Commissioner, and is expected to be fully operational in early 2023. The regulations deliver on the recommendations of the Henriques review, and mean that the Ministry of Defence will be in a stronger position to respond to serious crime. We will be able to combine resources and specialist skills across the single services under one unit, and will provide an independent, more effective and collaborative approach to policing across defence. I will seek to provide further updates after the DSCU has become fully operational and, in particular, after I have visited in the near future, which I look forward to.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
I welcome the points that the Minister is making. I think I am right in saying that the Government have said that the DSCU will be independently inspected by His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. The Minister will know, as I do, that every branch of the armed forces takes seriously the issue of how their performance is evaluated and how they can seek to do things better in future. Can the Minister confirm that there will be an independent inspection? If that is the plan, does he envisage that the findings of the independent inspection, when it takes place at some point in the future—I am mindful that the unit has not even been set up yet—will be published?
Dr Murrison
Yes, I anticipate that this will be dealt with in exactly the same way as for any other constabulary, if that is helpful. I will move on to the second statutory instrument that we are debating, the Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022, because I am quite sure that they will be of interest to the Committee. The SI consists of the changes to the rules that apply to courts martial that were contained in schedule 1 to the Armed Forces Act 2021, with three of the four changes implementing recommendations from the Lyons review of the service justice system.
The first rule change implements Lyons’s recommendation that a six-member board should be required if the offence is a schedule 2 offence. These are serious offences, such as grievous bodily harm, which must always be referred to service police for investigation rather than being dealt with by a commanding officer, or that carry a maximum penalty of more than two years’ imprisonment. His Honour Shaun Lyons found that there was widespread agreement that the five-member boards, which currently try schedule 2 offences and offences carrying a maximum term of over seven years’ imprisonment, should be increased in size to six and reach qualified majority verdicts, rather than a simple majority verdict in which at least five of the six members have agreed.
His Honour Shaun Lyons also recommended that those boards try schedule 2 offences and offences carrying a maximum of over two rather than seven years’ imprisonment. He recommended that smaller boards, which will continue to consist of three or four members, should try all other cases and deal with sentencing in all cases where the defendants have pleaded guilty, as they do now. We accept this recommendation, which will allow the three-member boards to focus on the great majority of the service disciplinary offences contained in the Armed Forces Act 2006 and the less serious criminal offences that would normally be heard in the magistrates court in a civilian criminal justice system. Six-member boards will deal with the relatively small number of disciplinary offences that carry a sentence of over two years’ imprisonment, such as assisting the enemy or mutiny, as well as criminal conduct that would normally be tried in the Crown Court. We do not anticipate that lowering the threshold for when a six-member board is required—when the offence attracts a punishment of more than two years—will place an untenable resource burden on the single services, since the existing pools of personnel provided for court martial service are sufficient to meet the new requirement. However, we will monitor the situation for the first 12 months after introduction and consider whether any adjustments to the approach outlined might be required.
The second rule change has its background in the pingdemic that occurred during the covid pandemic, which highlighted the concern that three-member boards hearing cases lasting several days can be vulnerable to the unexpected loss of one member of the board. To deal with this, the Armed Forces Act 2021 gave judge advocates the power to add a fourth member to a three-member board.
Maria Eagle
Can the Minister tell the Committee how many cases were delayed as a consequence of the loss of a member of a three-member board?
Dr Murrison
I cannot, but the judge has discretion to decide whether the court martial board should be stood down or whether it should continue regardless. I will elaborate on that later.
Judge advocates will have wide discretion to appoint an additional member whenever they feel that it is necessary in view of the expected length or location of the proceedings. This approach is closely based on the existing rule, which currently allows up to two additional members to be appointed in cases that are expected to last more than 10 days, or more than five days in the case of trials being heard outside the UK and Germany.
The third rule change implements Shaun Lyons’s recommendation that there must be a mechanism to cope with the death, sickness or other absence of a member occurring during a trial, which would reduce a six-member board to five members. This reflects section 16 of the Juries Act 1974, under which the default position is that a Crown court trial continues despite the loss of up to three jurors, but the judge can instead choose to discharge the jury, which touches on the point that the hon. Lady made in her intervention. The new rule gives judge advocates the power to direct that proceedings with a four or six-member board should continue
“in the interests of justice”
despite the loss of a member, and this direction can be made at any point after all the members have been sworn in.
The final rule change implements the provision in the Armed Forces Act 2021 to allow personnel at other ranks 7, or OR-7, to sit as members of a court martial. These are senior non-commissioned officers at chief petty officer, staff or colour sergeant, and flight sergeant or chief technician level. This was another recommendation made by Shaun Lyons. Currently, only officers and warrant officers can be members of a court martial, and, unlike a jury in a Crown court, the members assist the judge advocate in sentencing. Sentencing within the service justice system has a number of purposes, not least punishment, deterrence and the maintenance of discipline. OR-7 ranks have the experience and understanding of command and rank, and they are well placed to be involved in the sentencing exercise, which is something in which civilian jurors do not participate.
Maria Eagle
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. He is referring to the SI implementing a number of recommendations of the Lyons review. My memory of it is that it made a recommendation to move the prosecution of serious crimes committed in the UK, such as murder, manslaughter and rape, from the military courts to the civilian courts, but the SI is not doing that. I think the Government rejected that recommendation. Will the Minister tell us why that was and whether anything has changed in the interim?
Dr Murrison
I think we had this conversation on 31 October during the urgent question. The Government take the view that service justice is best discharged using the current arrangements, and Henriques appeared to be comfortable with that. Although I suspect that the hon. Lady will not like the answer, it is felt that the status quo is probably acceptable at the moment, and Henriques has certainly opined favourably on the quality of justice dispensed by the current mechanism. As we discussed on 31 October, there are no current plans to change that, but as with everything, matters are kept under review.
We need to ensure that the quality of justice being dispensed using the parallel justice system is commensurate with, and equal in quality to, that which is dispensed in the wider civilian criminal justice system. From my remarks today, I hope it is clear that my view is that we should ensure that, wherever we can, we have systems with a great deal of overlap—that is to say that one can check off against the other—to assure ourselves that what is being done in one system is not radically different from what is being done in the other, and that the quality of justice dispensed is not different.
I will continue talking about the rationale for extending eligibility for board membership to OR-7s. Doing so will mean that the single services have a wider pool of experienced personnel to draw on, and we will support the new rule to increase the representation of women on court martial boards, which was debated in Committee on 26 October. It may also reduce the burden on officers required on boards where the defendant is of an other rank. The existing rule about all members being senior to the defendant is unchanged, meaning that OR-7 personnel will only be able to serve on boards hearing cases where the defendant is of the same, or a lower, rank.
To sum up, three of these four rule changes were recommended to the Department by Shaun Lyons, a highly respected retired senior Crown court judge. The other rule change reflects a sensible business continuity measure for three-member boards—that is, the additional member to cover the unexpected loss of one of them.
Nick Smith
The Minister is being very generous with his time. Coming back to his earlier point about seeking consistency of outcomes, why has the Minister not adopted the proposal of the Government-commissioned Henriques review that the deputy Provost Marshal of the DSCU ought to be a civilian?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. The first reason is that service police have a jurisdiction overseas that civilian police do not, which it is usually done on the basis of status of forces agreements that allow service police to do things that civilians cannot; the second is the rigour of some of the locations in which our servicemen and servicewomen operate. On consideration, bearing in mind that the Government have accepted the overwhelming majority of Lyons and Murphy, and of Henriques, it was felt reasonable to continue to appoint a service policeman as the deputy.
To come back to the point I made earlier, there is a considerable amount of civilian interplay with the new serious crime unit because of the employment, by design, of reservists who are policemen. The effect of the changes we are making following the Armed Forces Act 2021 is to increase the amount of civilian interplay with the service criminal justice system, if that is of any comfort to the hon. Gentleman.
I hope that I have explained both of these statutory instruments to the satisfaction of the Committee, and that Members will be able to accept the steps that we have taken in the interests of service justice: ensuring that there are checks and balances on what we do in defence, and making sure that what we do in defence passes muster compared with what is done in the wider criminal justice system in this country. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Dr Murrison
I am very grateful, Chair, and my right hon. Friend’s insights into these matters are very valuable indeed.
I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, who speaks for the Opposition. He has asked a lot of questions that I will do my best to answer. If I do not give him satisfactory responses, I am more than happy to write to him.
I also thank the hon. Gentleman in relation to his comments about my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham. Although she served for only a very brief time, I think she made an impact, particularly in relation to her report on women in the armed forces, which we debated on 31 October. I will not rehash that debate here today—I think we gave that subject a fairly good airing—and some of the points that the hon. Gentleman has made today were probably dealt with then.
It is important, just for context, to insist that this measure is a consequence of Henriques and Lyons, and their comprehensive review of this piece of service justice. We have genuinely attempted to incorporate their significant recommendations. I believe that the result is an improved service justice system, and I am convinced that the defence serious crime unit will be part of that.
It is also important to say that this unit is made up of elements of service police drawn from across the three services. I think that the Henriques’ concern was that we did not have a specific unit to deal with serious crime. We have seen reflections of that in civilian policing, too, with an increasing concentration of expertise to deal with crimes of a particular nature, especially when those crimes are serious.
In a sense, that is what we are doing here today. We are drawing together into one organisation the elements of service police who deal with serious crime, and I think that right hon. and hon. Members will understand the advantages and focus it will bring to the most serious three crimes in particular.
That said, it is important to put this matter into some sort of perspective because, in general, our service population is pretty law-abiding and does not engage in the sorts of crimes that we are chiefly concerned with today. Nevertheless, when such crimes happen, they need to be dealt with properly and in a way that is comparable to the way they are dealt with in civilian life.
May I deal with the point about reservists? Reservists are going to be important in this process for the reason that I have explained. They will be drawn from all elements of policing. We have very little control over that, in fact. It depends on our ability to recruit and retain reservists which, Ms Fovargue, I am certain you would call me out of order if I were to dilate on now.
However, reservists will be in addition to the 370. Regarding the length of time that they will serve at any one time, of course that will be in accordance with the reservists’ terms and conditions of service. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport will know that reservists are being used more and more these days in our armed forces. I recently came back from the Falklands, for example, where I saw, much to my surprise, reservists providing something like a third of manpower. I think that is extraordinary; I was not anticipating that at all. Very often, they are on three or four month-contracts, as it were, depending upon their civilian commitments.
I suspect that chief constables across the land would be rather concerned if their officers were disappearing for three or four months. Nevertheless, I anticipate that the service police will utilise their 24-day-a-year standard reserve commitment, and perhaps a little more depending on their agreement with their service and their civilian employer. The important point to make is that these reservists contribute now to service policing and will continue to do so in this new unit, but I hope in a rather more focused way.
On training, it is important to say that the constituents of the defence serious crime unit are already service police. They are trained, and in the main they do a good job. Under the Provost Marshal for serious crimes, the unit will focus its training more than is the case at the moment to ensure that College of Policing suggestions and guidance are carried out, and more courses will be provided to those who deal with serious crime from among that cadre. I hope the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport welcomes that.
Like the hon. Gentleman, I have an affection for Gibraltar. He is right that there appears to be a bit of an incongruity with the Royal Gibraltar Regiment and the Falkland Islands Defence Force—perhaps another could be cited. The Armed Forces Act applies to British forces everywhere, including Gibraltar. It applies to the Royal Gibraltar Regiment when it is operating with British armed forces with regular reservists from the UK. It is important to make that point. Otherwise, Gibraltarian law is by and large commensurate with that which applies to the UK.
Luke Pollard
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that point. That is not what the explanatory memorandum says, however. It says:
“The extent of this instrument (that is, the jurisdiction(s) which the instrument forms part of the law of) is the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man and the British overseas territories (except Gibraltar).”
It explicitly says that it does not include Gibraltar. I hope the Minister is correct, but if he is, the wording of the explanatory memorandum may need to be revisited.
Dr Murrison
The Armed Forces Act covers British forces everywhere, including Gibraltar. It applies to the Royal Gibraltar Regiment if it is operating with British armed forces. Otherwise, it does not in the same way, but the Gibraltarian Government have ensured that their legislation covers pretty much the same ground. I know it is untidy, but that is the reality of it—[Interruption.] Well, I am telling the hon. Gentleman what the situation is, and I hope he will accept that. He may wish to write to me, and if he wants me to write to him to clarify it further, I am more than happy to do that.
We are not relying on reservists in the defence serious crime unit, but we believe that, as elsewhere in defence, they will bring important value added to what we do. Obviously, that will evolve over time.
The hon. Gentleman asked what ranks are involved. Again, we are reliant on who the reservists are and who is tempted to join them. I obviously proselytise for them all the time, but we have to work with what we have got. That means that there will be a mixture of uniformed police and detectives, and we have to try to accommodate that as best we can. The hon. Gentleman will be delighted to hear that we will provide training where necessary to ensure that nobody in the reserve cadre is exposed to tasks for which they are not properly trained or equipped.
The hon. Gentleman perfectly reasonably asked about the budget. I will have to write to him, I am afraid, but he will have drawn from what I have said that, because the unit is constituted from officers from across defence, there will be a saving in those parts of defence, which will be translated to this unit. It is perfectly reasonable for him to ask about the additional costs that will be occasioned by setting up the unit, and I will write to him on that.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that no cavalry is about to charge over the hill. Again, I want to caution him. I do not want to give the wrong impression about service justice as it is. We have put a lot of effort into getting very senior judges to look at service justice and, in general, it is felt to be fit for purpose. The European Court of Human Rights, for example, has opined on the matter and has said encouraging things, although there is never any room for complacency. I think that the terminology, although I appreciate that it is well meant, is perhaps inappropriate. We are trying to improve the current situation and, in particular, enact the Henriques recommendations as much as possible.
On His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services, I would expect those findings to be published in exactly the same way as the publication of any other Home Office constabulary findings. I would refute the suggestion of a cosy relationship, and, if I find evidence of it, I will certainly deal with it, because that is not the way, in my experience, that His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary usually operates.
On the delay in the setting up of the victim and witness care unit, obviously, I would like it to be set up as soon as possible. I think that “early in the new year” does mean, “early in the new year”. I do not think that there is much plasticity in that, but I am absolutely resolved that this thing should be set up properly. That is why we are consulting with the Survivors Trust and the Victims’ Commissioner’s office in the hope that we can set it up as soon as may be.
However, I am sure the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport will agree that we do not want to set this up, only for it to go off half-cocked; I want it to be done proper. Certainly, authorities such as the Victims’ Commissioner ensure that what we end up having will be something that will pass muster when it is compared with its civilian equivalents. I hope that gives the hon. Gentleman the reassurance that he seeks.
The hon. Gentleman asserted that the prosecution of service crime is not working. Again, I just want him to be a little bit careful, because his suggestion is that the system is broken. I do not believe that is the case. In fact, we appear to be getting through cases more rapidly than our beleaguered civilian criminal justice system at the moment.
Conviction rates for rape—again, we covered this on 31 October—range from 4% to 75% on an annual basis over the past decade. Those figures are interesting, and, possibly, are the result of the relatively low numbers involved and so, to an extent, might be artefactual. However, what does appear to be the case, and the hon. Gentleman will know this full well, because he will have got briefing notes, just like me, is that we refer more cases to the prosecuting authority than is the case in civilian life.
The reasons for that are complicated. We will see how this develops over time, but one reason might be that awareness of the unacceptability of this, among the service population, is being heightened. I do not want to be complacent, but I am hoping that our efforts towards zero tolerance are working. If so, I would expect the referral rate to be as it is. I think that it might be an indication, although it is always easy, with data, to draw the wrong conclusions.
The fact of the matter is that more cases are referred than in civilian life, and you can deduce, Ms Fovargue, that that means that cases that would not have been referred in civilian life are being referred through the service justice system, and that, when they get to the prosecutor—because we want commonality between civilian and service life—proportionately more of those are not successful.
I think that would be one reasonable conclusion to draw but, because of the relatively small numbers, I think we need to be cautious about drawing conclusions. However, in all of this—running through it like a vein through a block of granite, I hope—is an insistence that we need to do better when dealing with serious crime, in the round, and particularly with sexual offences, as we know full well from what we have seen in the media recently.
On who should have jurisdiction, it is important to note that the final decision is always made by the civilian authority. In areas of doubt, a protocol, which is currently being worked up, will determine whether a civilian or service prosecutor has jurisdiction. However, if there is any doubt or disagreement, the civilian prosecuting authority will have the final say. Also—this has not been mentioned so far, but it is important to say—there is always recourse, ultimately to the Supreme Court. I think it is clear that there is a big interplay between both systems. I would encourage that, and think it will get greater over time. Indeed, everything that we have debated, from the 2021 Act through to these regulations, would underpin that.
The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport asked what happens when women are disposed of. I am sure he did not mean to say that, but I know what he means. In other words, what happens when the woman on a court martial board has to stand down, through illness or for whatever reason? The answer to that question is that the judge has discretion. He has to weigh what is in the interests of justice. If he feels that the court martial board should be stood down and reconstituted, he will do that. He may think that the court martial board should continue, presumably because it has gone through a great deal of the evidence and is a long way through the process; he may take the view that the interests of justice are best served by the board continuing.
In respect of the new rules on the number of members and whether that will create a disproportionate burden on defence, I do not believe that it will; I think that the benefits far outweigh the costs. However, we plan to keep it under review over the next 12 months to see how it goes. The fact of the matter is that we are extending this to OR-7s. In my parlance, that is chief petty officers; in others’, it is staff sergeants, colour sergeants, and so on. That will increase the cadre of people and, bluntly, the experience and expertise of court martial boards.
Going through the list of things that the hon. Gentleman raised, it is important to make it clear that specialist capabilities, such as forensics, will be provided more or less as they are now, from the Service Police Crime Bureau. I think that the hon. Gentleman was concerned about where the specialist input comes from. Again, we are simply translating what we have at the moment but focusing it under the new unit.
I wonder whether I have missed anything out. I think that I have addressed most of the hon. Gentleman’s points, unless he wants to come at me again. I hope very much that I have answered his points. If he has anything more, I would be more than happy to—
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman knows full well that that is not a matter for me. However, I am very sure that the defence serious crime unit will be more than happy to have a relationship with the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which is run by my excellent hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray) and is a very fine organisation that has benefited a great deal of right hon. and hon. Members. I will be amazed if it does not take an interest in this. Indeed, I hope very much that it will choose to visit Southwick Park and see the new unit after 5 December, when it is stood up.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Armed Forces (Tri-Service Serious Crime Unit) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2022.
Draft Armed forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022.—(Dr Murrison.)
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I pay tribute to our nuclear test veterans in this 70th anniversary year of our first nuclear test, and we look forward to the commemorative event at the National Memorial Arboretum later this month. The award of a medal to nuclear test veterans is first a matter for the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals. The case is being considered through the well-established process for reviewing historical medal cases, and the outcome will be announced in due course.
Rebecca Long Bailey
A Cabinet Office source reportedly told the Daily Mirror that the Advisory Military Sub-Committee has recommended to the main Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals that there be no medal for nuclear testing veterans, despite a Government scientist reporting in February that atomic troops were more likely to die, and to die from cancer, than other servicemen. Given that the Sir John Holmes military medal review in 2012 states clearly that the Prime Minister can personally make a direct recommendation to the sovereign on a medal issue, will he now recommend that those servicemen finally receive the medal they deserve?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but she really ought not believe everything she sees in the pages of the Daily Mirror. The procedure is for the Advisory Military Sub-Committee to make a recommendation to the HD Committee, which will make a determination on that matter. She will know well that in June this year the then Prime Minister decided to review the case, and asked the HD Committee to look at it again. She will also be aware of all the money that the Government are putting into nuclear test veterans, in particular the £450,000 project to commemorate and build public understanding of the contribution to our country made by those important veterans.
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
As we approach Armistice Day, I pay tribute to our armed forces personnel, veterans, forces families and all those lost through conflict over the years. Theirs is the ultimate public service.
As the Minister said, this month marks 70 years since the first British atomic tests in the Pacific. We are the only atomic nation that has not provided recognition of or compensation to nuclear test veterans. As well as the warm words, will the Minister commit to ending that scandal by setting out a clear timetable for nuclear test veterans to receive medallic recognition? Will he back Labour’s call for a complete review of the medals system to make it easier to recognise exemplary service personnel and veterans of unusual operations, such as those who took part in the Afghanistan withdrawal and nuclear test vets?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady has fallen into the same trap as the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey). She really must not take what she reads in the press at face value. I gave the timetable in my opening remarks, and I said that it is for the HD committee to make a determination, which it will. She must not confuse commemorative coins and medallions with medals. Medals are worn on uniform; medallions and commemorative coins of the sort that other countries have issued cannot be worn.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
Dr Murrison
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to answer these remarkably similar questions together.
The Government are committed to supporting all households with the current cost of living through initiatives such as the energy price guarantee, cost of living payments—
Mr Speaker
Order. May I help the Minister? These questions are grouped by the Government, not by anybody else.
Dr Murrison
I absolutely accept that, Mr Speaker—I was simply pointing out that they are very similar.
Dr Murrison
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
We are working at pace across Government and the service charity sector to understand how the veterans community may be impacted, including in the forthcoming national veterans survey and in the recent Cobseo-led survey relating specifically to the cost of living.
Liz Twist
With up to 80,000 veterans currently in receipt of universal credit—a benefit that was, like others, uprated by only 3.1% in April, which was far below the rate of inflation—what are Ministers doing to step up to support our veterans and their families?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. It is important to understand the extent of this, which is why the Government have backed Cobseo to do a deep dive in October on how the cost of living is impacting on our veterans. In advance of the outcome—the Secretary of State and I will have meetings to discuss that shortly—I point out that we have accepted the armed forces pay review body’s recommendations in full, we have frozen the daily food charge to our personnel, we are limiting the increase in accommodation charges, we have increased the availability of wraparound childcare, which is vital for families, and we intend to have a cost of living roundtable before the end of the year.
Chris Elmore
The Royal British Legion has identified a 20% increase in requests for support from veterans in urgent need—that is a deeply concerning figure. The RBL has also put forward information stating that veterans who receive sickness and disability benefits now face extra costs of £500 per month as a consequence of the cost of living crisis. What are Ministers doing to support veterans in this country, who are, frankly, being let down by this Conservative Government?
Dr Murrison
I do not accept that. I have just explained what we are doing to address that. We are trying to understand how the cost of living crisis is impacting on our service and veteran community, and we have already put in place a large number of interventions that will go some way to addressing it. I expect to meet my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State shortly, with representatives of the service community, to discuss the matter further.
Simon Lightwood
During the cost of living crisis, veterans need to access support such as the war pension scheme and the armed forces compensation scheme, but the latest veterans satisfaction survey shows huge dissatisfaction with Veterans UK, and I have been contacted by a number of constituents who are struggling to make claims. What will the Minister do to address those concerns?
Dr Murrison
There have been issues with some applications for both schemes, but I think the position has improved since last year. Nevertheless, the Government have injected further funds to ensure that matters are expedited. I urge veterans who are concerned to contact the welfare office provided through the veterans agency, to help them to fill out the claims, which can sometimes be complicated. The hon. Gentleman will be very pleased to hear that the Secretary of State is expediting the quinquennial review on the armed forces pension scheme, which will hopefully give him some reassurance on the seriousness with which we are taking that issue.
Vicky Foxcroft
It perhaps might help the Minister if I give him a real-life example. My constituent, Leslie Constable, is an Army veteran who receives a state pension, war pension, Army pension and attendance allowance. He tells me he is finding it increasingly difficult to heat his home and feed himself when prices are rising so quickly. He relies on charity shops and a coat given to him nearly 40 years ago. What is the Minister doing to ensure that veterans such as Mr Constable are receiving the support they need for a dignified retirement, and will he finally commit to keeping the triple lock?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady will know that that is not in my gift, but I point her to the veterans’ strategy action plan published in January 2020, which contained over 60 policy commitments at a price of more than £70 million. I just think it is not right for her to suggest that the Government are not exercised by the situation faced not just by veterans, but by people across the country at this extremely difficult time in the economic cycle. We will continue to do what we can to alleviate the pressure on veterans in particular. It is just a pity that in office the Labour party did not come anywhere close to designing an action plan of the sort we published in January.
Julie Elliott
Veterans in Crisis Sunderland is a brilliant organisation that supports veterans in Sunderland, the city I represent and one that sends a huge number of people into the armed forces. The cost of living crisis is having a huge detrimental effect on the mental health of veterans, and many are using food banks. One big issue is people receiving forces pensions who then have to pay that money to universal credit. Will the Minister look at whether leeway can be given for people who have gained their pensions fighting for our country and who are having to pay it back because of the universal credit rules?
Dr Murrison
Universal credit is paid right the way up the income scale depending, as the hon. Lady will well know, on circumstances, number of children and the cost of accommodation. She mentions mental health, which is important to me, too. She will therefore presumably approve of the extra money going into the Armed Forces Covenant Trust to support people with mental health issues. She will also, I hope, approve of the £17.8 million going into Op Courage.
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. and gallant Friend to his well-deserved place on the Front Bench. I look forward to working with him over the years.
My right hon. and gallant Friend will know that in Wiltshire alone we have 7,000 service children in our schools and that some 96% of all schools in Wiltshire have service kids in them, many of whom benefit from the services pupil premium. That is great, but it ends at age 16. Surely there is an argument in favour of continuing to help those children from 16 to 18, as we have changed the education system as a whole and education at 18 has become the norm.
Dr Murrison
I am very grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend and near neighbour. He invites me to ensure that Wiltshire gets more cash, in particular the excellent Wiltshire College. That is very tempting indeed. I hear what he says, and nobody is keener than I am on improving skills, particularly post 16. I am more than happy to discuss the issue with him, but I suspect that what he suggests would have a significant price tag and our colleagues in the Treasury would rather I did not commit.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
The Department, through Veterans UK, provides information and advice to our veterans on statutory benefits, pensions and jobs, one-to-one welfare support, and administers service pensions. Under the veterans’ strategy action plan, the UK aims to be the best place in the world to be a veteran by 2080.
Wendy Chamberlain
As someone who worked for the career transition partnership, I know how much many employers value veterans and the service that they provide in employment. Too often, charities are the ones left picking up the pieces, such as Only A Pavement Away, which I met a few weeks ago. It specifically focuses on getting veterans who are a long way from the job market into hard-to-fill vacancies. What more can the Government do to support charities such as that?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. Given her background, she will be aware of the efforts that the Government are putting in to get people into jobs in the public sector. We start in the Departments where perhaps we have some control over: the health and care sector and the prisons service, notably, are good examples, but there are others, including the civil service. The Government will work with charities and others—the Office for Veterans’ Affairs has primacy in that—to ensure that, across Government, we are doing our very best to get people who have a great skill set into jobs.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
May I first pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his excellent, comprehensive report? Families are an integral part of the armed forces community, and our evolving assistance to them includes funding wraparound childcare, supporting children’s education and the employment of partners as societal expectations evolve and change. The armed forces families strategy, published in January, sets out the Government’s response to “Living in our Shoes” and sets the framework for the delivery of more sympathetic policies in relation to armed forces families that are fit for the future.
Andrew Selous
Will the Government make public each of the six monthly service family steering group meetings and the progress that has been made on each of the 106 accepted recommendations, and ensure that we have parity of esteem in the way that we look after both veterans and service families—a wonderful group of people on whom the defence of the nation depends?
Dr Murrison
I am very sympathetic to my hon. Friend. We owe so much to our families and he highlights that very well in his report. Of course we meet service families all the time and I am more than happy to meet him at any time to update him on what we intend to do as a result of his report and indeed the veterans strategy, published earlier this year, which covered many service families and members of the service community.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
With regard to the report, we learned in the pursuit of a recent constituency case that the Ministry of Defence was not able to decide whether to deduct earnings from service personnel in child maintenance cases, which is leaving some service families in a difficult situation. Can the Minister advise me on how the Ministry of Defence is ensuring that families get the support they are entitled to?
Dr Murrison
I did of course outline some of the ways in which we have been supporting families in my earlier remarks. I would urge anybody in the service community who is concerned about their situation and who wants help to contact their welfare officer through the Veterans Agency. The veterans gateway is an extremely good place to start.
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
We continue to apply an array of measures to support recruitment and retention and refine the armed forces’ offer. These include financial incentives, flexible service, and an improved accommodation offer. A career in the armed forces provides all recruits with a wide range of opportunities to succeed. As one of the UK’s largest apprenticeship providers, with over 80% of all recruits enrolling in apprenticeship programmes, we ensure that those recruits have the right skills to carry out their role throughout their career and into civilian life.
Duncan Baker
With war on the continent and a fragile peace in many parts of the world, our armed forces are more important than ever. My constituency of North Norfolk has a very proud military history, with a large number of veterans who care deeply about this. However, in the past 22 years, the inflow of personnel into UK regular forces has been higher than outflow in only six years. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that for the armed forces the retention of personnel, which he mentioned in his answer, is as important as the recruitment?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend is right about this. Not recruiting is bad, but recruiting and then not retaining is even worse, for very obvious reasons. Defence recognises the need to improve matters, both for the regulars and the reserves, where the issue of inflow and outflow is pretty much the same. I have already this afternoon outlined a range of measures that are being put in place to improve retention, and I look forward very much to the Haythornthwaite review for incentivisation that we expect in the spring.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
The very youngest recruits into the armed forces, the 16 and 17-year-olds, will attend the Army Foundation College in Harrogate. However, there have been very concerning reports that an instructor at the college has been charged with more than 20 offences, including at least five sexual assaults against 16-year-old girls. Can the Minister detail to Members here today how these young recruits will be properly safeguarded at the college?
Dr Murrison
I can assure the hon. Lady that the matter is under review. I cannot comment much further than that. I hope that that will satisfy her.
Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)
Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. Help for Heroes is one of our key charities, which I visited a while back in its premises near Salisbury, and I plan to meet it again very soon. It is now mandatory for all armed forces personnel leaving the services to have a structured mental health assessment at their discharge medical examination. I am pleased to say that that will highlight any unknown mental health needs and enable signposting and referral where necessary, and my hon. Friend will of course be aware of Operation Courage within the national health service.
Dr Murrison
I am exceptionally grateful to my hon. Friend, who takes a close interest in these matters. Having spent four decades occupying pretty shoddy accommodation across the defence estate, it gives me great pleasure to say that the new strategy will definitely improve the quality of life of our personnel. The defence accommodation strategy commits to increasing the quality of homes, plus a fairer allocation process, and that will be game-changing. A safe, comfortable home is paramount to people’s wellbeing, and these improvements will directly increase the quality of life for servicepeople.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
Dr Murrison
What is more important to servicepeople is the quality of homes that they occupy, rather than who runs them. I have to say that the value of the future defence infrastructure services contract is £2.9 billion, and that is just the core contract. That will sustain jobs across the UK and will most definitely improve the quality of the housing that members of our service community occupy. I hope that will come as some comfort to the hon. Member, because it represents a significant investment indeed.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)
Dr Murrison
I am glad the hon. Lady raised this issue. She will be aware that the ONS has worked closely with the Office for Veterans’ Affairs so that for the first time we can record the number of servicepeople who have committed suicide. Her question gives me an opportunity to say that, although we are incredibly concerned about anybody who ends up in such a tragic situation—really, we are—it would be wrong to say that the statistics we currently have available suggest that the service population is particularly at risk. There may, though, be some granularity within that, which I am keen to explore.
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)
Figures from the MOD show that more than half of veterans rate their experience of the armed forces compensation scheme as one out of 10. Last week, I and my co-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on veterans—the hon. Members for Midlothian (Owen Thompson), for Bracknell (James Sunderland) and for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord)—launched a survey to enable those affected to share their experiences of the compensation scheme. Will the Minister agree to meet us when that survey concludes?
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
Recently I met Richard Morgan from 65 Degrees North, a charity that seeks to help in the rehabilitation of wounded, injured and sick service personnel and veterans by giving them the opportunity to participate in challenging adventure. Do Ministers agree that there is a need to change the perception of physical and mental disabilities through this spirt of adventure, and will they congratulate the charity on the work it does?
Dr Murrison
I most certainly do congratulate it on the work it does. I am very positive about disability in the armed forces. I point the hon. Lady to the diversity and inclusion strategy, which sets out the blueprint for how we can do much better. I would be more than happy to meet the charity that she has cited, and I congratulate it on the work it does.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In this remembrance period, does the Minister recall the two very constructive meetings held by the War Widows’ Association with our hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty), when he was veterans Minister, about the 200 to 300 people who lost their widow’s pension on remarriage? Will the progress made towards an ex gratia payment for that small cohort now be rapidly brought to a conclusion?
Dr Murrison
I thank my right hon. Friend for that question. I am acutely aware of the position of the pre-2015 war widows. The Treasury is absolutely against retrospection, and that has been the case over consecutive Governments. Ex gratia payments, however, are a different matter. I cannot give any commitments, but I can tell my right hon. Friend that the matter is under active consideration.
Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)
On Friday, I had the honour of visiting the brand-new specialist veterans orthopaedic centre at the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital near Oswestry. It is going to be a world-class facility built to provide NHS care for veterans across the UK, as well as working with military charities to provide other support. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating staff there on their achievement and agree to consider extending such centres across the UK?
Royal Navy: Conduct towards Women
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on conduct towards women in the Royal Navy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his timely question. Before I get going, I would like to declare my interest as entered in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I am a serving reservist and, more particularly for this particular urgent question, I have two daughters who are currently serving in the armed forces.
I was concerned by the recent reports in the media that have prompted this UQ, little knowing that I would be answering it this afternoon. Allegations of bullying, harassment and sexual assault in the Submarine Service are and will be taken extremely seriously. Any activity that falls short of the highest standards in the Royal Navy is totally unacceptable and not a true reflection of what life should be. Sexual assault and harassment have no place in the Royal Navy and will not be tolerated.
The First Sea Lord has directed a formal investigation into these allegations, and this commenced on 24 October. This independent investigating team, led by a senior female officer, will thoroughly examine the allegations and report back very soon. It is understood that the named individual has agreed to meet the investigation team to provide her account. While this investigation will review specific allegations, Defence will also review the culture of the submarine community and report to Ministers in due course. The House will understand that it would be premature to offer any further comment or debate until those investigations are complete. However, anyone who is found culpable will be held accountable for their actions regardless of their rank or status.
While some of the incidents referred to in the media are historical, it is important to note the large-scale policy changes that were introduced across Defence in the past year. As a result, Defence will deal with incidents and allegations of sexual abuse better. The new policies will ensure zero tolerance of unacceptable sexual behaviour or of sexual exploitation and abuse within Defence. All allegations of sexual offences will be responded to, victims will be given greater support and there will be a presumption of discharge for anyone found to be engaging in this kind of behaviour.
These policies will ensure that Defence will deal with these types of incidents differently. They will build trust and confidence in Defence’s ability to deal with unacceptable behaviour and demonstrate that supporting people who are victims of unacceptable sexual behaviour is a top priority. The House should be reassured that the Royal Navy has taken and is continuing to take decisive action to address the allegations that have been brought to light and will report to Ministers when the investigations are complete, at which point I feel sure that there will be a further opportunity to explore the detail.
Mr Ellwood
Britain can be immensely proud of its Royal Navy, which over the centuries has helped to define who we are as a nation. Today it is globally recognised as arguably the best-trained, best-motivated and best-disciplined maritime force in the world. It is therefore deeply concerning to see more reports emerging of inappropriate behaviour against women, this time on the very submarines that provide our nuclear deterrent.
I welcome the statement and the First Sea Lord’s promise of another investigation. Only three years ago, the Ministry of Defence was obliged to commission its own study, the Wigston review, which admitted
“an unacceptable level of…behaviour and a sub-optimal system for dealing with it”.
The Defence Committee carried out a study last year, and over 4,000 female personnel replied to our survey run by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton). Sixty-four per cent. of respondents said they had endured bullying, harassment, intimidation, discrimination or sexual abuse, and few had any faith in the mechanism through which these concerns could be addressed.
My Committee made two clear recommendations: first, the establishment of a central defence authority to provide a reporting system outside the chain of command and, secondly, the removal of the chain of command entirely from complaints of a sexual nature. Will the MOD now implement these recommendations and encourage others, both serving and retired, to share their concerns on safety?
Women have proudly served in our armed forces for over a century, and all roles are now open to women. To be fair, the majority leave with a positive view of their time in uniform. This is about a few personnel who bring the Submarine Service into disrepute. It is about a systemic failure of the chain of command, and the MOD must now accept its role and prioritise putting this right.
Dr Murrison
I thank my right hon. Friend again. He is correct to put matters in these terms. He has been robust and forthright, which I respect.
My right hon. Friend will know that the great majority of women serving in our armed forces today respond positively when asked about their experiences and say they would recommend the services to others. He will also be aware of the work done this year in response to his Committee’s report. I would like to say I have read it from cover to cover, but I have been in post for only a few hours, so he will forgive me for not doing so. I get the gist of it, and I will study it extremely carefully.
My right hon. Friend will know that the MOD has already accepted the great majority of the report. He and I have been around a long time, and I cannot think of a Select Committee report in recent times that has had so many of its recommendations accepted and carried out. He will be familiar with “Tackling Sexual Offending in Defence” and the two pieces of work on a zero-tolerance approach that have been published this year.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) and their Committee. The great majority of the recommendations are being carried out or will be carried out.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the new Minister to his position. Those who serve in our armed forces should expect the highest standards of professionalism and personal conduct, which must be supported and reinforced by the Government. As the son of a Royal Navy submariner, I know that the Submarine Service is on the frontline of our national defence. Every submariner must be confident that the people they serve alongside in the Royal Navy have their back. These claims of abuse are extremely serious and must be thoroughly investigated, and those responsible must be held accountable.
These reports lift the lid on a culture of abuse and cover-up in our armed forces. In far too many cases, victims are unable to raise their experiences within the chain of command. Women account for 11% of our forces personnel but, between 2019 and last year, 81% of victims of sexual assault in the military were women, and almost half of them were at the start of their military career. Behind these statistics are hundreds of women who have been let down. This cannot be allowed to continue. Victims of sexual abuse serving in our armed forces must have confidence in the processes that allow them to report their experiences, and they must know that robust action will be taken.
I suggest that the Minister reads the Defence Committee’s report before coming back to the House to tell us how he will implement all of it. Will he make the investigation he has just announced a public investigation so we can see what action is needed? Can he explain why the Government continue to resist Labour’s proposal that the most serious cases, including murder, manslaughter and rape, should be tried in civilian courts instead of military courts? What progress has been made on the RAF’s review of allegations of sexual assault, which was announced in August? Will those findings be made public?
Our armed forces are the very best in the world, and they deserve the very best, too. The Government must step up and protect those who protect us.
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his points. I agree with him about external scrutiny. That is why the investigation that has been set up, which will report soon, to which I referred, will include an individual from outside Defence, who is currently being selected for his or her independence, probity and integrity, who will be alongside that investigation. I do not know where this is going to go. I suspect it is going to be complicated and may take a while. I want it to report quickly, but I do not want to put a time limit on it necessarily.
However, it is going to report “soon”—that wonderful, plastic term. It will have within it an independent individual —the hon. Gentleman will understand that that is a divergence from the norm—because I am absolutely clear that there needs to be oversight of this that is outside the process. He will know full well that these investigations are conducted properly always—I have been involved with a number myself—but there has to be the appearance also of their being transparent. I hope that that will give him some reassurance.
The hon. Gentleman refers to the Henriques report, most of which of course was accepted. He may also be aware of the joint protocol that will be drawn up for the very serious offences that he cites between the civilian and the service prosecuting authorities. I hope that that goes some way to addressing that outstanding concern that I know he has.
A parallel strand of work is being set up by the commander of the submarine flotilla to look into conduct and culture. That will be headed by Colonel Tony de Reya from the Royal Marines. That will report, I hope, by the end of the year. It is separate from the investigation on the specific that I have cited in my opening remarks, but, obviously, it will touch on much of the same material. I look forward to returning to the House to discuss that once Ministers have had a chance to examine its findings and conclusions.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
It must not come down to one brave woman being prepared to speak out; there have to be processes in place where every woman and man serving in our armed forces has the confidence to come forward. I say gently to my right hon. Friend that we cannot simply be looking at the culture in the submarine community. This happens across our armed forces and we need to have processes that are swift and give redress to those victims, so that they come forward with confidence. I have a constituent who is not at the start of her military career—she is a lieutenant colonel—who waited 10 years before the Ministry of Defence took her complaint seriously. We have to have faster justice for the women who have been victims of this sort of culture.
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. This is my 42nd year in Defence as a regular and reservist, and over that time things have changed dramatically—I am happy to say that is the case—particularly in the past few years. I accept all of her comments. There is no room for complacency. With two daughters in the armed forces, I am certainly not complacent. However, I have to refer to some of the objective data that we have, some of which is to do with the sexual harassment surveys that each of the three services conduct and that show a positive trend. We can argue as to whether that is fast enough, and certainly it should not be the antidote to complacency. Nevertheless, it is positive in terms of the experience of people feeling supported and feeling that their complaints will be dealt with outside the chain of command, where appropriate, with action taken. That is very positive, but she is right to say that there is no room for any complacency and a single complaint is one too many.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think we are all agreed that the reports that emerged over the weekend are truly shocking, and I pay tribute to the women who have spoken out about the abuse they suffered, including Sophie Brook, the former Royal Navy lieutenant, who described her abuse as being “constant”. She said that it came from the top down, confirming what Emma Norton, from the Centre for Military Justice, said about there being a culture of
“Nasty, pernicious, endemic, sexual harassment”,
within which people acted with impunity. That must change.
Therefore, I am sceptical about the First Sea Lord’s announcement of yet another internal investigation. It is simply not good enough. As the MP for Argyll and Bute, which takes in the naval base at Faslane, I understand that this episode casts a shadow over the entire service. I am sure that there are thousands of hard-working, thoroughly decent Royal Navy personnel who will demand that those responsible, irrespective of their rank or status, are rooted out and disciplined. They will want a thorough independent investigation, one that can report without fear or favour. So does the Minister agree that that can be achieved only by a fully transparent, truly independent investigation of these facts?
Dr Murrison
It would be nice to have the facts first. That is the point of the investigation that was launched on 24 October, which—let us be clear—was before the publication of the lurid accounts that appeared in the media. I think that gives a signal of intent that Defence is looking at these matters very seriously, as does the inclusion of a non-Defence person in the investigation, which is important. The hon. Member will note the number of senior officers who have been dealt with severely because of transgression in this particular area. That is also an indication of how seriously Defence takes such matters. He is right to push me on this, but I point him to the series of three major reports by Defence during the course of the year that outline what Defence will now do to ensure that the environment is as good as possible for those who have had cause to make serious allegations in the recent past.
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)
The allegations that we have heard are clearly horrifying, and I know that the investigation will have to take its course, but it is equally disturbing that there does not appear to have been a safe, independent route of complaint for the people involved. Whatever the outcome, will the Minister confirm that that at least will be put right?
Dr Murrison
The excellent report by our right hon. Friend’s Select Committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham in particular, makes some recommendations along those lines, and much of that has been accepted, so the general trajectory of the environment—in particular for women who have found that Defence has in the past not provided the background against which they would want to conduct their careers and lives—will be improved. It is worth underscoring—our right hon. Friend made this point—that the great majority of women serving in our armed forces today have a positive experience that they would recommend to others.
Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I am a trustee of the Agnes Wanjiru trust. Agnes Wanjiru was a prostituted woman in Kenya who was murdered on the site where there were military personnel; I will say no more about the case, except that it has not been pushed forward.
The Minister has referred to a number of documents that have been produced since other cases have come to light. There have been a number of documents of progress. One document to which he referred is on sexual exploitation policy, which now disallows Defence forces having sex with sexually exploited people abroad. However, the document specifically says:
“While the policy is not intended to apply in the UK”.
Does the Minister think it is okay that the Department has written into a document that it is fine for British military personnel to sexually exploit people in the UK?
Dr Murrison
Sexual exploitation is unacceptable in the UK and abroad under any circumstances.
Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend the Minister to his place.
The incident we are discussing is horrifying, but the statistics in the Defence Committee report—that over half of women in the armed forces have experienced bullying and harassment in the workplace—are also totally unacceptable. There are simply no excuses for such behaviour. We have had women in the armed forces for many years, but only recently in very senior roles. How many excellent women heading for senior roles does the Minister think have left the armed forces because of the culture of bullying and harassment?
Dr Murrison
Bullying and harassment of women is particularly appalling, but we have to understand and be honest with ourselves that it has historically been a feature of service life more generally. I suspect the behaviour that my hon. Friend has just described has been a feature of the retention issue for many years. It is wasteful, it is wrong, and it has to stop. We hope that 30% of our service personnel will be women by 2030, so the issue is quite a big deal in terms of the whole force. Although we are dealing with the issue in relation specifically to women in the armed forces today, it is applicable right across Defence. It is wrong for the organisation, and it is wrong for the individuals and their families.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Minister, this has to stop. As the Chair of the Defence Committee said, we have had the Wigston report and the report from the House of Commons Select Committee, ably chaired by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton). May I say that her sacking does not fill me with a great deal of confidence that these things are going to be taken seriously? What evidence does the Ministry of Defence need for change? Without an independent process, either in investigations or prosecutions, which the MOD resisted fiercely in the Armed Forces Bill, things will not change, Minister.
Dr Murrison
The right hon. Gentleman is correct to put me on the spot on this. I would, however, cite some of the evidence. I mentioned earlier the sexual harassment survey, which is an important survey. It is conducted rigorously, it has been conducted longer for the Army than for the other two forces, but its conclusions are fairly clear: while there are no grounds for complacency at all in this, things are improving. As to what is being done, tackling sexual offending in Defence was the biggest part of the response to the report, to which we referred earlier. The great majority of its recommendations have been accepted and they are being rolled out at pace. The survey was published only in summer 2021 and already in summer this year we have had this major contribution that accepts most of the report and says how it is being rolled out.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on rejoining the Defence ministerial team. With his experience of professional service in the Royal Navy, he will be aware of the vital role of commanding officers of naval units in terms of discipline. I am surprised therefore that not more is being made of the fact that commanding officers ought perhaps to have it brought to their attention that their own careers will not progress well if they allow not only incidents, but a culture of sexual exploitation, insult or abuse in their units. What does he have to say about that?
Dr Murrison
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his kind remarks and for his question. He will know that a significant number of very senior officers’ careers have been brought to an end in these matters. That is an indication of how Defence views commanding officers who fail to grip this. I also point out that, in the event that the commanding officers fail in the eyes of the ombudsman, their annual appraisal will be annotated accordingly, which has very severe implications for their hopes of future preferment. In those ways, we can inculcate into the senior cadre that this is their responsibility and they need to grip it. He will also know that we have taken some of this outside the chain of command completely, so that people can have confidence that they can report allegations and have them dealt with appropriately and seriously without the fear of retribution. There is, if you like, a double lock there, which gives me great hope for the future.
Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)
I welcome the Minister to his place. These reports are despicable. We repeatedly hear about situations such as this happening within our armed forces. Research shows that female recruits under the age of 18 face substantially elevated risk of sexual violence. Last year, more than one in 10 girls serving in the armed forces aged under 18 were victims of a sexual offence, according to records of military police investigations. I know from my own time serving with soldiers and with young recruits how pervasive this behaviour can be. Will the Minister commit to taking a meaningful step by shifting responsibility for serious charges, including rape and sexual assault, from military courts to the civilian justice system, so that we can better protect young service personnel?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman knows from his own background the importance of these matters, and I welcome the expertise he is able to bring to the House. People who are in positions of responsibility must not abuse those who are potentially subject to their predations. The teaching profession has implemented changes in recent years to the relationship between teachers and children, and Defence is taking note of that. He refers to recruits under the age of 18, who are minors and are in a similar position, so he can be assured that we are closely considering how we can emulate the situation that now pertains to civilian education, so that it properly applies in a defence setting. He also touched on the Henriques report: the bulk of those recommendations were carried out, although I suspect we could have a debate about the three most serious offences, but Defence’s position remains that they should be a matter for the service justice system.
James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
I, too, welcome the Minister to his place. As the Chair of the recent Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, a regular officer for 26 years and now a senior veteran, I can tell the House with some authority that our armed forces are full of brilliant people at all ranks and levels. In the interest of balance, and noting how far the MOD has come in recent decades in dealing with such sordid behaviour, I urge the Minister to maintain a sense of pragmatism and proportionality. Rather than saying that the forces have an endemic problem, I think this is indicative of individual poor behaviour and the inquiry must look accordingly.
Dr Murrison
I think I touched on that subject when I referred to the Select Committee’s report and the positive comments it made about the experience of most women in our armed forces. We must not put people off joining our armed forces unduly, but equally we must take these allegations very seriously.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) for her report; when I was on the armed forces parliamentary scheme last year, many in senior positions referred to that report, and it should not be cast aside. We in the Labour party have long argued that the more serious cases, including sexual assault and rape, should be tried in civilian courts rather than through the military justice services. I was also on the Bill Committee for the Armed Forces Bill, so I ask the Minister to explain why the Government continue to resist that move? Sexual assault cases need to be in civilian courts.
Dr Murrison
Henriques dealt with the three most serious offences, although he could have chosen other offences as well. The judgment has been made that the status quo is probably appropriate, but with the design of a joint protocol between civilian and service to ensure that practice is the same. I hope the hon. Lady will accept that.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend to his place. I want to raise the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton). Her review mattered because, for the first time, women in the armed forces were no longer gagged. They believed that that meant they would be listened to and that change would come. My concern is that the sexual violence policy that the MOD has just introduced has a five-year vision. Five years is too long. Surely my right hon. Friend the Minister can agree that no military commander would accept a five-year deadline to deliver any effect within the MOD, so why are we accepting it for sexual policies?
Dr Murrison
I would not say that we are not doing anything to deal with the situation—I have outlined a number of ways that we are doing exactly that, and referred to the sexual harassment survey, with respect to my hon. Friend, which gives some evidential basis to say that matters are improving. That is not to say that we are in any way complacent, and I want to see changes rolled out as soon as possible, but I think she should give credit to Defence for working hard on this matter and taking it seriously at the highest level.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
I have spoken to Dr Shonagh Dillon, the founder and chief executive of the charity Aurora New Dawn, which works with women survivors of abuse in the military. She is very clear what is required to give women sufficient courage to remain within the services in the face of what, according to the evidence, appears to be a culture of such difficulties. She says that what is needed are fully independent investigations into such allegations. When will the Ministry of Defence look into having fully independent investigations, given the advice of the Wigston review and subsequent recommendations to that effect?
Dr Murrison
I hope it reassures the hon. and learned Lady to learn that in my few hours in post, I have made sure that the investigation to which I referred has significant independent involvement. That is not a given in Defence—it is something of a departure—but it is important that someone completely independent of Defence be heavily involved, both for transparency, and so that people ultimately accept what the investigation comes up with. That may give her an indication of how I view these matters.
The hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right about victims. She will be aware, I hope, of the victim and witness care unit, which is about to be set up in the defence serious crime unit. That will give added support to the victims of these horrendous offences.
Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has suggested that the future of the Royal Navy may well be in subsea vessels, but we cannot expect to staff a fleet, or to recruit, when reports of misogyny and absolutely terrible abuse hang over the submarine service, so will my right hon. Friend confirm the Government’s view that this behaviour is completely unacceptable? Will he work towards ensuring that people can have faith in the system of training, reporting and redress, so that we make sure that the incidents reported in the press are the last of their type?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend is right. The case in question relates to the submarine flotilla, but I think that the lessons will be more generally applicable. I agree entirely that this kind of behaviour has no place in our Royal Navy, or in defence more generally.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The north-east is proud to send so many young men and women into the armed forces—more than any other region. As a consequence, we have many veterans living in our region. A 2019 report from the north-east charity Forward Assist, “No Man’s Land”, highlighted the experience of women veterans, and in particular the unacceptable sexual harassment that they had to deal with. It also highlighted the lack of mental health support for them when they left the armed services, and particularly the lack of online support for those feeling isolated. What will the Minister do to ensure that women veterans have the mental health support that they need and deserve after their service?
Dr Murrison
I hesitate ever so slightly because I have been professionally involved in this area. A set of rules that take my name apply; they govern how servicemen and women who leave the armed forces for medical reasons are managed in civilian life, and help them to transition. The great majority of veterans transition to civilian life very well. The hon. Lady will be aware of that. In fact, there is good evidence to suggest that they do better than the civilian cohort. However, it is important that we continue to support their mental health. Over the past five years, matters have improved dramatically, not least as regards career transition and veterans’ ability to continue to access support through the services.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I was angry over the weekend, not just because of this dreadful case of sexual harassment and bullying in the Navy, and not just because I have three daughters and five grand-daughters, and another due on Thursday, but because it is the inalienable right of women to be free from this sort of treatment, yet everywhere I have worked, it is still there—in the manufacturing sector; in the universities, where I spent 13 years; here in the House; and in Whitehall. This behaviour is still everywhere, and we have to do something about it fast.
Dr Murrison
I agree with the hon. Gentleman; there is no question about that. I speak specifically about defence, of course, but what he says goes for society more generally, too.
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)
What will Ministers do to ensure that no female officer brave enough to come forward and report abuse will experience professional discrimination, such as having promotion opportunities withheld from them?
Dr Murrison
I hope that I explained in my previous remarks the importance that Defence assigns to this, particularly when it comes to senior officers who may be complicit in some of the behaviour that we are discussing. This is very important: if someone’s career is on the line, it does affect their thinking fairly dramatically. I would also commend to the hon. Member the victim and witness care unit that will be established by December for the most serious offences, which will give people much-needed support that was previously lacking.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
I welcome the Minister back to his post. Will he join me in noting the amazing achievement of Private Carter, who just last week became the first woman soldier to pass the all-arms pre-parachute selection course, P Company? It is a timely reminder of the outstanding contribution that women make to our armed forces. Does the Minister agree with me that every woman who steps forward to serve, whether in the Royal Navy or whichever bit of defence it might be, deserves nothing less than complete and total respect at all times?
Dr Murrison
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is no mean feat even these days to join the armed forces as a woman. The challenges remain enormous, although I hope they are becoming less. I am particularly proud of my two daughters who are serving in the armed forces. Respect to them and strength to their arm.
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
It is highly disturbing to hear of a woman in the armed forces being sexually assaulted and violently abused. Last year the Defence Committee’s report “Women in the Armed Forces” uncovered shocking levels of abuse and identified bullying, harassment, intimidation and discrimination in the armed forces. This stops women fulfilling their potential, and in many instances the abusers are promoted and rise through the ranks. This is unacceptable. Women in the armed forces really do need to be protected, so will the Minister confirm how many of the Committee’s recommendations have been implemented to date?
Dr Murrison
If the hon. Lady is referring to the House of Commons’ Defence Committee’s report, as I said earlier, the great majority of those recommendations were accepted or partially accepted, which is pretty much unprecedented in my experience, so my congratulations to the Chair of the Committee, who is in his place. Let me be clear: the behaviour that this touches upon is wholly and completely unacceptable. It is unacceptable in the armed forces, it is unacceptable in society in general, and it needs to be stamped out.
Ukraine
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(1 year, 7 months ago)
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James Heappey
I suspect my hon. Friend knows that we speak to our American and Ukrainian counterparts daily at every level, from the military operational level through to heads of Government. The UK and the US are entirely aligned in their view that this ends on President Zelensky’s terms; it is for him to define what the end state is. I have heard nothing from Washington to suggest that that is not also their view.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Nevertheless, will my right hon. Friend accept that unless we are going to defeat Russia in classical terms, which is unlikely and undesirable, there has to be an off-ramp to allow Putin to construct a narrative that will go down well among his population and through the media, which of course he controls? It is not acceptable to say that we cannot offer Putin something out of this that will enable him to save face and get whatever it is through with his population.
James Heappey
I am not sure I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. If Putin were looking for an off-ramp, he has had plenty of opportunities to de-escalate and claim victory at some point along the route. In the 48 hours immediately following a mobilisation of Russian society—a clear escalation—I am certainly not going to stand here representing His Majesty’s Government and say that he deserves any further opportunities for an off-ramp, when he has made his decision on what should come next.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I start by welcoming the wonderful news of the release of British prisoners of war overnight. It is welcome that they are returning home, but we recognise the pain and hurt of all the families involved, because not everyone is returning safely.
I also welcome the Minister’s new job in the Cabinet. Before the last reshuffle, the shadow Front Bench team said to the Front Bench team that we were hoping that he and the Defence Secretary would stay in their positions, and they have. I also welcome the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton), to her place.
Seven months on from Russia’s criminal invasion of Ukraine, we have reached a new and critical phase of the ongoing conflict. We should all be inspired by the remarkable resilience of the people of Ukraine, who have refused to bow to Russia’s oppression. I recognise the extraordinary Ukrainian counter-offensives that have taken place in recent weeks, which the Minister set out in such detail.
Our argument has never been with the Russian people but with the dictator in the Kremlin. Overnight, we have seen brave Russian civilians stand up to the authoritarian state that curbs their freedom, restricts their voice and keeps the people in poverty while the oligarchs count their yachts and villas. Today, possibly thousands of Russian civilians are in jail, arrested simply for exercising their human right to protest. As we have stood with the Ukrainian people against aggression, I make special mention in the House of the courage of those protesters.
The horrors of war that we have seen in the newly liberated areas remind us of the atrocities and the pain that many Ukrainians have suffered in the past weeks. I join the Minister in setting out a clear determination that those responsible must be prosecuted and brought to justice for the hideous war crimes that we are seeing unfolding.
Dr Murrison
It is welcome news that a load of generals and colonels have been sanctioned and placed in The Hague’s waiting room, as it were, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need to go much further down the food chain than that? Each and every one of the individuals involved in those atrocities needs to have their card marked. They have dishonoured the profession of bearing arms and need to be dealt with sooner or later.
Luke Pollard
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Anyone who perpetrates war crimes against civilians must know that, in the 21st century, they will be prosecuted and followed in the pursuit of justice from the day they commit that atrocity to the day they die. We must not leave any space, justification or excuse for war crimes— at all, anywhere, ever. That is a message that will be sent from hon. Members on both sides of the House to those people, regardless of rank, who have persecuted civilians and committed war crimes against them.