Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if she will make a statement on the implications of Israel’s strike in Qatar for peace and stability in the Middle East, and on UK foreign policy

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We We come We come to We come to the We come to the Urgent We come to the Urgent Question.

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Calum Miller. To ask the secretary of state for foreign, 's affairs to make a foreign, 's affairs to make a statement on the applications of Israel's strike in Gaza for peace and security in the Middle East and the UK foreign policy.

12:35

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, the UK government is deeply concerned by Israel's strike in Doha yesterday. As the House heard a few minutes ago from the Prime Minister, he and the Foreign Secretary have condemned the fragrant violations of Qatar's sovereignty which was a setback for peace and risks further escalation in the region. The Prime Minister spoke to the Emir of Qatar to express UK solidarity and support. And to reaffirm our shared commitment. The Prime Minister also gave his condolences for the death of the Qatari's officer killed in the attack.

Sadly, Qatar's Ministry of the Interior has confirmed the death overnight of a second person. Qatar is playing a critical role in mediating this conflict, driving efforts to secure a ceasefire, and to facilitate vital humanitarian access to Gaza. That must remain the priority. This this government continues to support them in their efforts. To push for an immediate ceasefire, for the release of all hostages cruelly detained by Hamas. For the protection of civilians, and the unrestricted flow of aid into Gaza.

As the vital first steps towards long-term peace and stability. This is the only way to achieve lasting peace and security for Palestinians and Israelis alike. That is why we are working with partners to develop the framework for peace that prioritises governance, security, and political reform. Negotiation not more violence is the way to achieve that. We are actively working together with our international partners including the G7 and the UN Security Council to coordinate efforts aimed at de-escalation, and reiterate our full support for the sovereignty of Qatar.

Earlier this week, the Prime Minister met with President Abbas to discuss the intolerable situation in Gaza. The need for an urgent solution to end horrific suffering and famine in the Palestinian authorities reform agenda vital for a two-state solution. Today the a two-state solution. Today the promise that will meet President Herzog of Israel and reiterate the U.K.'s grave concern following yesterday's strikes, and reiterate that man-made famine in gas that must end. And the renewed offensive in Gaza must not happen. We will continue to push for political resolution, to end this conflict and strive towards a lasting peace.

12:38

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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Thanking Mr Speaker for granting this application from Urgent Question. I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement. Last night Israeli strikes against Hamas officials heralded a new and grave escalation in this terrible conflict. Prime Minister Netanyahu's willingness to strike Doha will undermine efforts to secure the release of the hostages still held in Hamas captivity. In setback the path to a desperately needed ceasefire. Liberal Democrat support diplomatic pressure including the threat to excise the leaders from Doha unless we see the unconditional release of hostages.

It is the kind of diplomatic pressure that must be brought to bear. Instead the Israeli government has chosen a path which even President Trump, Netanyahu's biggest cheerleader, is appalled by. The Liberal Democrats support the right of the state of Israel to exist and it's right, like all nations, to defend itself. Yet Israel has obligations under international, and duties to its allies, both of which it has breached. Cannabis to confirm whether any UK entity, clearing the joint command on the base, informed by Israel of the attack in advance? Cannabis to confirm that, in addition to what you said, it is meeting with present Herzog today, the Prime Minister condemned yesterday's attack in the strongest possible terms, and make clear the UK views this as a flagrant breach of international law? Last night strikes are inseparable from the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.

They further eroded our collective hope for an end to suffering for both cousins and hostages. It is time for meaningful action by this government. Willingness to confirm that the UK will take the steps necessary today to end the export of F-35 pt.2 Israel? In light of the further egregious breaches of international law directed by Netanyahu overnight, Willie confirmed that President Netanyahu will be sanctioned?

12:40

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, as you would expect I won't be commenting on sanctions from the Dispatch Box as a usual practice. The Prime Minister has set out to this House the intentions of his meetings with President Herzog. I can confirm that the Foreign Secretary met with President Herzog this morning and raised these points among a range of others including the urgent need both to ensure aid into Gaza but for further Israeli support for British efforts to medically evacuate injured children.

12:41

Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)

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Emily Thornberry chair of the Select Committee.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. What happened overnight illustrates a happened overnight illustrates a problem that the new Foreign Secretary is going to need to deal Secretary is going to need to deal with. I'm pleased the Minister will ably be helping in. The problem is this, there is an emboldened far- right Israeli Government to believe right Israeli Government to believe that they can do whatever they like there won't be any consequences. On the other hand, we have a country like Qatar, who are generally like Qatar, who are generally working towards peace.

I know the Minister has met ministers was not I have met them too was not they could not be more sincere in their efforts and they get bombed for their and they get bombed for their efforts. The question really is for the Foreign Secretary, how can we make sure we are not just bystanders make sure we are not just bystanders and actually playing an active role in dealing with this issue? In what

12:42

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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in dealing with this issue? In what way the Prime Minister be able to convey such a message to President Herzog this afternoon? I thank my right honourable

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I thank my right honourable

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I thank my right honourable friend for the question. It is vital that at such serious moments UN Secretary council plays its full Secretary council plays its full part. I can confirm to my right honourable friend UK is supporting calls for an emergency session of the UN Security Council this evening. The Foreign Secretary will be joining called with our E3 counterparts this afternoon. And we will discuss this matter with a range of G7 allies including the US.

12:42

Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)

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Come to shadow Foreign Secretary.

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This is clearly a very serious moment in the Middle East and no one in this House wants to see a spiral of escalation and hostilities. Israel and Qatar are both important Israel and Qatar are both important and valued strategic partnerships partners with the United Kingdom. We value and recognise the extensive efforts by the Qatari government to secure the release of hostages, and their work towards securing a their work towards securing a ceasefire. It is tragic, as the Minister has highlighted, that security guards were killed in this security guards were killed in this attack.

I think there are some fundamental issues here. Many of these points have been made from the Dispatch Box time and time again. This is a moment for our country. This is a moment for our country. Britain must contribute and provide Britain must contribute and provide the British expertise necessary when it comes to conflict resolution, and support strong regional initiatives including packing Qatar and the including packing Qatar and the Qatari's when it comes to releasing the hostages but also achieving a the hostages but also achieving a ceasefire.

On top of that we have to be working with allies in the United States. Looking ahead to next week States. Looking ahead to next week with a visit from President Trump, this is a crucial moment. There can be no equivocation any more as this issue continues to inflict the region day after day. It is also region day after day. It is also true that we should not be warning -- morning those Hamas leaders who have been killed. They have held innocent people for over 700 days.

And they were responsible for the atrocities on 7 October 2023 which also killed international. In recent months Israel has been removing terrorist actors across the Middle East will stop leadership of Hezbollah, Houthis, and individuals in the Iranian regime. Of course this means our government must play a strong role and stand firm and it comes to dealing with Iran nuclear capabilities and the malign influence in the region. So recognising the sensitivity of the cyst duration in the Gulf, can the Minister confirm what actions he and the FCDO will undertake to stabilise efforts to secure the release of hostages? What proactive steps are being taken to stop Hamas and their capabilities? And how do we work constructively with our partners in the region to drive the right outcomes including the ceasefire?

12:44

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank the right honourable lady for the important questions. I can commit the British Government is fully committed to efforts without golf partners, with partners across the G7 to try and ensure that negotiations currently ongoing come to the conclusion that we wish to see. Those are conclusions both in the short-term. We have long repudiated Hamas taking hostages, they need to be released immediately, and humanitarian aid must get into Gaza. As I said in response to the question, there are other questions about governance and security, and the long-term prospects for a Gaza, West Bank, a state of Palestine and Israel living side-by-side.

We are fully engaged in the diplomacy. On the wider questions which she points to fragility in the region, she will be familiar with the decisions that we took in relation to discussing Iran in greater detail at some point in the future. I'm conscious that will develop meant over the recess. We will continue to return to the House to discuss the threat of Iran is to discuss the threat of Iran is

12:46

Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)

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You longer Israel is allowed to act as a rogue state, acting with impunity in the Middle East, the more weak our words look with Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Tunisia, Qatar affected. Why are we meeting with the Israeli spokesperson when his the Israeli spokesperson when his own words show a complete disregard for humanitarian law? Three IP tribute to the work of my honourable tribute to the work of my honourable friend on a range of issues. -- I friend on a range of issues.

-- I would like to pay tribute. I value the work she is doing helping the the work she is doing helping the people of Gaza and it is important to raise the concerns with the Israeli to secure the practical and tangible help required to get people tangible help required to get people out of Gaza. On its own, the Foreign Office cannot secure the immediate Office cannot secure the immediate departure of these people.

12:47

Rt Hon Sir Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)

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Do the events of yesterday not underline the critical need to secure a ceasefire and, above all, to move into a political process? We are pleased to see the Minister continue in his role following the reshuffle so will he commit to building on the important role that has been done by Egypt, Turkiye Mark, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, to underline the notion that there is no place for Hamas following the events that have taken place? events that have taken place?

12:47

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I'm grateful for the words of the right honourable gentleman and I'm continuing in my role and I look forward to further engagement in the South. He is right to emphasise the importance of the UK and Western allies and the comments which were made by Qatar, Egypt, a range of other states who have a role to play with these pressures and trying to with these pressures and trying to secure the ceasefire that we want.

12:48

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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I thank the Minister for the

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I thank the Minister for the condemnation of the attacks. They are a blatant disregard for the sovereignty of Qatar. Last year, I sovereignty of Qatar. Last year, I spoke with the ministers and I saw how diligent they are and that they are keen every day to secure the are keen every day to secure the ceasefire and get the urgent aid in. ceasefire and get the urgent aid in. This is Minister agree that the role of Qatar will be brought into

12:49

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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of Qatar will be brought into jeopardy by the attacks and will be Prime Minister condemned this when he meets with the presidents later this week Fisher

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Qatar has played a vital role in the conflict and I work closely with the conflict and I work closely with my counterparts on the issues of the my counterparts on the issues of the Middle East and the cross a range of concerts. They play a vital role and concerts. They play a vital role and are committed to continuing to play

12:49

Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)

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are committed to continuing to play that mediation role and I cannot see how these strikes can help them to perform the role but nonetheless

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they are committed to continuing with it. The offensive yesterday comes as

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The offensive yesterday comes as no surprise to those of us who have been raising the crimes committed by the Israeli government with the Israeli government with impunity. It should be clear that they are not interested in the slightest in peace or the feet of slightest in peace or the feet of the hostages. I have two questions. Mostly, what military assistance Mostly, what military assistance will be provided to allow the people of Qatar to defend themselves of Qatar to defend themselves against further attacks? Will the UK join its voice to the growing calls for an international protection

12:50

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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for an international protection force to enter Gaza and ensure peace? On the first point we are committed to the security and committed to the security and defence of Qatar. We have a close relationship and we are enclosed discussions and we know the importance of the collaboration. -- In close. On the second point, taking advantage of the question from the right honourable gentleman, who was the Secretary Of State for the Department of International Development when I was there and the UN peacekeeping force had the most far-reaching arrangement to protect civilians.

There must be a ceasefire negotiation and I saw, as did the world, the qualifying ethnic cleansing that followed the inability of the UN mission to protect people. We must have a ceasefire. It is easy to get distracted with alternatives but only a ceasefire will protect civilians and that is the truth.

12:51

Even that any pre-emptive strike under Article 51 has been justified and it is stated that all members should refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state political independence of any state and Article 48 states that these measures should be reported to the Security Council, does he agree that Security Council, does he agree that international law and the strengthening of the rules-based strengthening of the rules-based system is vital for the people of this region and that we must make it this region and that we must make it clear to Israel that we expect them clear to Israel that we expect them to be international law? -- to obey.

to be international law? -- to obey.

12:52

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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We expect Israel and all allies to respect international law. The UK is supporting an urgent session of the Security Council this afternoon.

12:52

Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)

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Members in this House are battling the reasons why Israel has violated international law by attacking Qatar. Will the UK government lay down a motion at the UN to condemn the actions of Israel? UN to condemn the actions of Israel?

12:53

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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The UK are supporting a motion for a session of the UN Security Council this afternoon and I would expect that to take place in the evening, our time. evening, our time.

12:53

Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)

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Israel is a rogue state that blatantly disregards international law. The bombing was a blatant attempt to scupper peace negotiations. Pleading with them will do no good. How many more violations of international law are necessary before the government imposes the tough sanctions required to force Israel to stop this? to force Israel to stop this?

12:53

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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We have covered this point earlier in the session. that there was no word from the Secretary of State in relation to the terrorist attack in Jerusalem on Monday when a terrorist opened fire on a bus, killing rabbis and women. The leadership of Hamas not only condoned the attack but please it. Does he agree it is essential that a ceasefire agrees with the release of all hostages without conditions and that stipulates Hamas surrender all weapons and agreed to the militarising in Gaza? militarising in Gaza?

12:54

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I condemn the attack and it was barbaric and women and rabbis were killed and we condemn it outright, just like we condemn all activities by Hamas including the taking of hostages and the long litany of terrorist attacks they are responsible for.

12:54

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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The extrajudicial killings of Benjamin Netanyahu exposes his rejection of peace and his complicity in atrocities in clear violation of international law. He is destroyed peace talks and he acts with impunity. The UK government has dealt with this but when will it uphold international law and call out the perpetrator of the site and end the arms sales to Israel and end the arms sales to Israel and impose the necessary and correct sanctions?

12:55

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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The honourable gentleman has set out what the government has done with regard to suspension of arms sales and the sanctions on diggers in the Israeli government and I will not labour the point but on the peace talks, the talks will continue and Qatar will continue in a mediation role and they will rightly try to push them forward. try to push them forward.

12:56

Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)

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The Israeli bombing of Doha was the act of a state acting with complete impunity once again the Netanyahu regime has shown international law does not apply to them. For so long as this government ignores the overwhelming evidence of genocide in Gaza and continues to profit from the sale of weapons to Israel, that will continue. Can the Minister tell us, unless this is another example of the performative confirmation we have seen so often from this government, what exactly are the consequences for Israel for this dradge is attack on Qatar? -- this dradge is attack on Qatar? -- This egregious attack? This egregious attack?

12:56

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I have 20 measures including the meeting with the Security Council and discussing with allies and I do not wish to be drawn further as we discussed this very important incident with our allies. I take issue with the characterisation of the honourable gentleman. The conflict in Gaza is not the question that relates primarily with UK arms. We are a tiny supplier of arms and of suspended the sale of all arms that could be used in Gaza.

Other states have much fuller arms relationships. The honourable gentleman says 15% but that is of total F-35 supply, not the less than 1% which is the true total figure.

12:57

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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The Minister is right to call for a session at the UN. Nobody can think that attacking the people trying to broker peace will lead to a ceasefire but, I had a, the country must have had some assessment of the case for a session and for a motion. What assessment has been made by officials as to the civilian casualties? And is this strike proportionate under the boundaries set out by international law two if we go to the UN, what is law two if we go to the UN, what is the case that we will be making?

12:58

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I do not want to be drawn on the casualty tally from the UK. Qatar has said out in response and they have been clear about their assessment and these things tend to develop in the immediate aftermath of strikes and so I want to talk about casualties. Qatar will quite rightly release that information when it is available. My honourable when it is available. My honourable friend asks about international law and the strikes must be judged against self defence and imminence and that is the measures they must and that is the measures they must be judged against.

Qatar and other be judged against. Qatar and other nations have developed a niche in nations have developed a niche in conflict resolution. Can we look at resources and spending and double down on how we are working with Qatar on negotiation efforts? I thank him for his question, which is an important one. The strength of the relationship with Qatar, conflict mediation, our own abilities, are an important area of work and I was a negotiator in the Foreign Office and understand how important it is and I was the national security adviser and I have been in further discussion with my counterpart in Qatar and the talks have been delayed but I hope to have more soon.

more soon.

13:00

Afzal Khan MP (Manchester Rusholme, Labour)

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Qatar is an ally and IT negotiator and media in the talks in Gaza. Committing atrocities in Gaza, marching into Syria, attacking Lebanon, Sudan, Turkiye, the Israeli government has proven itself to be a dangerous neighbour and no ally to us. At what point do we draw a line in the sand and call them out for what they are, a danger to peace in what they are, a danger to peace in

13:01

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I think you said my condemnation and that of the previous Foreign Secretary, the current Foreign Secretary, and the Prime Minister, many of the Israeli actions in relation to Gaza and the West Bank, and elsewhere. Where we disagree with the Israeli Government, we are clear and forceful in saying so.

13:01

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

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Given Israel continues to act with impunity, what new leavers will our government use to, within its power, to take action? Such as, travel and trade and putting restrictions on those, air and sea delivery, given that land delivery of aid is so appalling, and the F- 35, we are breaching international humanitarian law's. Can we please stop doing so? stop doing so?

13:01

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, I don't like to get ahead of the courts on the question of F-35s there was extensive legal representation in the case that did not find as he suggests a stop on the question of air and sea access to Gaza, both methods have been tried. UK supported airdrops alongside our Jordanian partners over the summer. Such was our desperation in order to try and get aid into the strip. We cannot escape the fact that airdrops are, at best a break in the overall scale of need.

There is an aid operation which has a track record and that is operated. The sea was tried under the late period of President Biden. It was not found to be an effective mechanism to get aid in. Where we can get aid, even if it is small, we will do so. I cannot pretend from this Dispatch Box that any alternative methods other than that land routes and US support can reach the scale of need required. the scale of need required.

13:02

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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I'm pleased to see the Minister back at the Dispatch Box. Whether he is equally as pleased to come back here once again to answer questions about the illegal actions of the Israeli government. We have had a situation here where one of our allies has unlawfully attacked another ally. Given we are standing quite rightly with the Qatari's in their particular situation, is it not time we accepted that, because of the actions in Doha, and also their continued starvation and murder of innocent civilians in Gaza, but we recognise that this right-wing Israeli government and this extreme right-wing Israeli primaries to our no longer allies of ours? ours?

13:03

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank my honourable friend for his kind words about my reappointment. I recognise the force of what he says in relation to Israeli politics. It is not appropriate for one Foreign Minister to comment on the internal politics of another country. You can see from the sanctions I announced from this Dispatch Box in June, the strength of this governments feeling about, for example, the rhetoric of Mr Smotrich and the rhetoric of Mr Ben-Gvir. It has been deeply disheartening to see repeated over the course of the summer.

But where we can, we demonstrate the strongest

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possible way the strength of feeling on these matters. The events of early this week in

13:04

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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Jerusalem, and the event yesterday, prove I think the point that the two extremes of this conflict have no interest in peace. Hamas benefits from violent and the right wing of the Israeli governed also profits as they seek to expand territory and to subject Palestinians. I agree entirely with my right honourable friend from West Hampshire. I wanted to amplify the points he made. Given the fact that Trump the American administration appears to be as annoyed with Israel as the rest of the world, is it now not time to call Israel's bluff and, through the United Nations, to seek the engagement of blue helmets, or a similar force, to say, we have got, as an international committee, people on the ground.

Don't you dare fire into that area, let us trigger the talk of peace. Without the catalyst, the two extremes will continue. The performative merry- go-round of, here we go again, condemnation and another UQ is going to happen. I fear in three or four years time, there will be rubble in Gaza stop Israel will be even more of a rogue element and we will be no further forward.

13:05

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank the right honourable gentleman for the question. He's actually right about the risks and Gaza. We have seen that rubble grow. The British Government would support international forces to go into Gaza with the agreement of the parties. I spoke in response to the member of North West Hampshire of my experience, of the limitations of peacekeeping forces where there is no peace to enforce. We are depressingly clear I about continued intent on both sides, exactly the way he says.

way he says.

13:06

Steve Witherden MP (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. In the past month alone, Israel has bombed Palestine, bombed Lebanon, bomb Syria, bombed Tunisia, bombed Yemen, and yesterday, for the first time, bombed Qatar. What is the government legal assessment of the strikes on Qatar? Does it consider them a violation of international law? violation of international law?

13:06

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, we utterly condemn the violation of Qatar's sovereignty in the way that the House heard from the Prime Minister, and in the words released this morning. In terms of what the international legal tests are, they are, as my honourable friend from rugby set out, to do with immanence and self defence was top there will be a session of UN Security Council. It will be for Israel to demonstrate how they are consistent with its actions. consistent with its actions.

13:07

Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)

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Today of all days, after an illegal attack on peace brokers Qatar, it is shocking to see the UK put out the red carpet for President Herzog. He has dehumanised Palestinian suffering and incited violence against civilians. His government is being seen to pander to politicians and flout international law. He rightly calls for a ceasefire. When will he call what is happening in Gaza a genocide?

13:07

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, President Herzog is in the UK on a private visit so I would not characterise the visit as one in which the red carpet is rolled out. I would reiterate, this House rightly, 70 colleagues behind me but I'm sure in front of me as well, are so conscious of the urgency of helping people out of Gaza, ensuring that aid gets in and ensuring that as a ceasefire. President Herzog is the head of state.

He is not a functional part of the government for top he's an important conduit to raise these concerns. The Foreign Secretary sought this morning, amongst other things, to ensure greater support for the Israeli Government, in order to get children with injuries, in order to get students out. These are difficult practical matters on which we are focused. I understand that perhaps the benches over here would prefer that we did not conduct such talks, but the practical problems of helping people in Gaza are what I'm focused on what the government is focused on.

That is what the Foreign Secretary has raised already this morning. morning.

13:09

Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)

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This morning on radio four, an Israeli politician offered no apology for the Israeli attacks on Qatar. And could not explain what makes Israel exempt from international law and acting with impunity. How does the Minister justify the genocidal comments of President Herzog? These individuals must be held accountable. This is not diplomacy. It is shameful complicity. Does the Minister agree with me that today's meeting with Herzog should never have taken place? place?

13:09

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I set out the position in relation to present Herzog's visit a moment ago and I'm not familiar with these really politician in question. I say the UK considers international law binding on all states.

13:10

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Despite the atrocious terrorist attack in Jerusalem, I have to agree with the honourable lady from Walthamstow when she says that blowing up your enemies negotiators does not exactly suggest an interest in a negotiated solution. I would like clarification on the government's position about recognition of a Palestinian state. On 1 September, the then Foreign Secretary said that he proposed to recognise a Palestinian state, but that Hamas would not benefit from it because they would have to be disarmed.

Does this mean that Hamas must be disarmed before recognition? Or will recognition go ahead, as seems to be the case, whether Hamas is disarmed or not? is disarmed or not?

13:11

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, then and now, have both been clear that the Prime Minister make a determination in advance of the UN General Assembly in accordance with the language set out in the statement of July. The honourable member makes important points about what the previous Foreign Secretary said, and about the Hamas position. We must remember that Hamas are not in favour of two states. They are in favour of One-State, from the river to the sea.

And that is not the position of the British Government nor the position should we take the decisions outlined in July.

13:11

Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. We all want to see peace, hostages returned, and an end to the family Gaza. This attack on a sovereign nation so closely tied to the peace talk undermines all of that. As awful as it is counter-productive for top what can we do to ensure that the issue of peace is more than just lip service to the Netanyahu government? service to the Netanyahu government?

13:12

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, my honourable friend has been a persistent advocate on these questions. I look forward to continuing to answer his questions from this Dispatch Box. He should not be more pessimistic about the prospects of continued mediation the Qataris themselves, given that they are very much on the closest edge to this was the we will continue to support them in their efforts. They are vital, and for the reasons we have discussed this afternoon, the only way through.

13:12

Dr Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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We keep talking about a ceasefire but how can one be achieved if one side is intent on killing the negotiators from the other side? Attacking peace negotiators is simply reprehensible. It is undermining any possibility of the only thing, dialogue, that has any chance of bringing a resolution to chance of bringing a resolution to the horrors in Gaza. This is not the action of a state seeking peace, it is the action of a rogue state operating with impunity outside international law, typically crossing redline after redline.

I asked the Minister again, given the repeated crossing of new red lines, what action he matches condemnation with? Will he stop all sales? All military cooperation? All intelligence sharing? All defence deals, current and potential future ones with Israel? And will he sanction Netanyahu and all officials complicit in the war crimes and genocide in Gaza?

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Mr Speaker, I have set out already are condemnation of the strikes. I have set out already both strikes. I have set out already both in relation to sanctions, already in relation to sanctions, already taken against extremist figures in the Israeli government and indeed the Israeli government and indeed the other measures we have taken. In relation to action that follows from the strike on Doha, the Foreign

13:14

Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)

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Secretary will be shortly in touch with her and colleagues and we hope there will be a Security Council session for this evening.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I think the Mr Floyd statement for top I pray Mr Floyd statement for top I pray that one day he will come to the Dispatch Box with good news for us Dispatch Box with good news for us to be frank. At the surgery, UK Palestinian woman came to see me, Palestinian woman came to see me, she brought cookies that have been freshly made by her mother. I thought I would save one for you Mr thought I would save one for you Mr Speaker but it proved not to be possible.

She spoke passionately and she was really concerned about the she was really concerned about the visit of the Israeli president to visit of the Israeli president to the UK. I spoke about what the government has been doing, actions I have supported would have saved have supported would have saved lives. But I think we will what we have seen from Qatar, I think Netanyahu has made a full of us. The fear that he will continue to make full us. So is it time to change

13:15

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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full us. So is it time to change direction, to avoid this happening again? To avoid us taking a stand, asking for a ceasefire, demanding a ceasefire with Netanyahu just laughing at us? laughing at us?

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Mr Speaker, I am disappointed that my honourable friend's constituent did not reserve a cookie for me. I am grateful for the for me. I am grateful for the important question that she asks. The reason I set out before, it is The reason I set out before, it is important that we continue to engage directly with the Israeli government. Particularly on those questions like the evacuation of honourable people from gutter on

13:16

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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honourable people from gutter on Several of our partners in the

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Several of our partners in the region, North Africa, the Middle East, have expended a great deal of East, have expended a great deal of capital trying to deal with Israel in recent years and you will be aware of the leadership involved in achieving the Abraham Accords. What confidence can they have now that Israel has truly embarked on a quest Israel has truly embarked on a quest for peace in the region?

13:16

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Even in advance of the event yesterday, nations in the region who had taken the step of signing the Abraham Accords, including the UAE, who signed an agreement of Crescent, and I do not seek to speak for them but I am sure that they will look at the events of yesterday with great concern and I'm sure we will see further statements over the course further statements over the course of the next 24 hours. of the next 24 hours.

13:17

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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A man-made famine in Gaza, increased settler violence in the West Bank and the attack on sovereign Qatar. I fear these are not the actions of an Israeli government that is committed to peace. With that in mind, I asked my honourable friend to ask the Foreign Secretary to speak to friends and allies and find out what we can do to increase concrete pressure on the Israeli government to get the ceasefire that we badly need? ceasefire that we badly need?

13:17

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I confirm that, practically as we speak, the Foreign Secretary is in consultation with friends and allies about the actions that are being taken. Speak many of my constituents have told me that they are so frustrated that Britain is not doing frustrated that Britain is not doing more. Will the Minister reassure them that the government is doing all it can to ensure these strikes all it can to ensure these strikes do not break down the peace process completely and enough it gets into completely and enough it gets into Gaza now? -- enough aid.

I reassure them that we are doing all we can to ensure that the flow of aid continues and the peace of aid continues and the peace mission continues in Gaza.

13:18

Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )

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It seems particularly wicked that Israel are targeting the country that is doing the most to push for peace. These countries are governed by deeply unpopular extremists who have no interest in peace. The Israeli government have imposed collective punishment on villages and remove hundreds of work permits and have given permission to start abolishing many homes. Doesn't this decision prove that Netanyahu does not care about hostages and that Israel is now a rogue state and the UK must have severe sanctions against them to prove our worth? -- Word?

13:19

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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My honourable friend has been a persistent advocate on these questions. The depth of concern about events, of course, the attack on Jerusalem was horrific and I have already discussed that with the honourable gentleman from the Conservative party. I'm Gretel Tippett honourable friend for raising this issue and we will take all measures under review and we've taken far reaching action with three waves of sanctions which have been

13:20

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Let's look at the facts. These terrorists have been organising and financing acts of terror including financing acts of terror including the mass murder of civilians. Is it not important that those people are eliminated and it's made clear that they will face the consequences of the terror that they organise and by showing them that they will not win, is it not more likely to drive them to the peace table rather than continuing the acts of terror?

13:21

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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We have condemned the strikes. Again, they violate the sovereignty of Qatar. The strikes will now be contested and the government is releasing the facts as it conducts a full investigation following them and regardless of anyone else, there have been Qatari officials killed and it is worth looking at for that reason. reason.

13:21

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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Can I ask the Minister for security information is shared with Israel? Is the information collected by the more than 600 flights over Gaza used to guide the Israeli bombardment? Are we continuing security cooperation with a country that has bombed almost every neighbouring state of the last year? Speak as the House will understand, Speak as the House will understand, I cannot comment on security matters but I can confirm that we do not but I can confirm that we do not provide any information to assist provide any information to assist the targeting strikes in the way that he has suggested.

13:22

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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Does the Minister recognise the danger of holding Israel to a different standard? When America looked to snuff out the architect of 9/11, we took them to the bar. In terms of the leadership of Hamas, we terms of the leadership of Hamas, we will not take them to the bar of the international court? Stick the honourable gentleman makes me feel honourable gentleman makes me feel seasoned because I was in the stand seasoned because I was in the stand at the time and these are tests on international law and self-defence are not everyone agrees on these are not everyone agrees on these thresholds but it is the expectation of the British government with all our partners, allies, every state, our partners, allies, every state, that they demonstrate how they are complying with international law.

complying with international law.

13:23

Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)

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I am pleased to have the confirmation of the Minister that, despite the egregious actions of Israel yesterday, Qatar will continue to pursue the peace that we all long for in the Middle East and, to that end, the government has said that it would commit to estate of Palestine if Israel failed to meet certain conditions. Has Israel failed to meet the conditions and will the government recognise Palestine as a matter of urgency?

13:24

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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The Prime Minister will make a determination in advance of the general assembly and that is not long now and the whole House can see the development of events in the region and I do not want to get ahead of the Prime Minister before ahead of the Prime Minister before he sets that out further.

13:24

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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My colleagues and I have called for further sanctions on Israel including ministers Smotrich, Ben- Gvir, and Prime Minister let me. Does the Minister agree these people are responsible for the man-made famine in Gaza and the continued killing of innocent civilians?

13:24

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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As we have discussed last week, the circumstances of the famine in Gaza are horrifying and it is obvious that the restrictions on aid into Gaza are contributing substantially to the circumstances and the government have raised methodological concerns with the IPC which arise from the fact that there is not free access to Gaza. We stand by the IPC and the judgements they had made and it is clear with the restrictions on the Israeli government, of which I've been clear government, of which I've been clear numerous times, they are responsible for those circumstances.

13:25

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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We have had a number of ceasefires, each one violated by the Israeli government and the recent attack in Qatar is a clear example that they are not interested in ceasefire but in genocide, taking over the whole of the Gaza Strip and we can see that with their actions. I ask the Minister, with all the leaders we have spoken about in this House, none have done anything. It is like a toothless tiger.

We say we will apply pressure but nothing is done. This unlawful attack on Qatar has not been punished. Does the Minister not think that the immediate unconditional recognition of a state of Palestine is a form of punishment and with no further towards a ceasefire than what you towards a ceasefire than what you are talking about Twitter

13:26

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I set out in response to the question from the honourable lady earlier the process by which we will make determination on the recommendation points set out in July and that point is soon. It is just weeks away with the general assembly and the honourable member can question members of the government after the Prime Minister has made determination. We should not think of recognition as a punishment but a reflection of the long-standing commitment to the two-state solution if that is the determination we make.

It is unlikely of itself to make up for the qualifying famine and other sources of agony that are affecting people. That does not mean that it might not be right thing to do if the Prime Minister makes that determination that the House should not think that it will necessarily bring any immediate improvement in the humanitarian situation in Gaza. the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

13:27

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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Qatar has used offices for diplomatic negotiations for many years. Taliban representatives secretly arrived 15 years ago and secretly arrived 15 years ago and subsequently attended piece -- peace conferences. If these are allowed, to be a precedent for further strikes on intermediaries in the future. How is the government dealing with this and imposing dealing with this and imposing sanctions on this far right Israeli and? Three I have set out the consultations that will take today and over the coming days.

He is and over the coming days. He is right about the role of Qatar right about the role of Qatar including the talks and we have already discussed questions about states striking other states under international law. international law.

13:29

Andrew George MP (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)

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In respect of the sanctions, the Minister will be aware that I asked the then-Foreign Secretary last week if he would support making sure that the UK had no involvement in the proposed contract and that there is no use of the air base in Cyprus to the advantage of the Israeli military and it is noted with the illegal settlements in the West Bank? Can we confirm that the position remains the same and that he will make sure that it is followed through? followed through?

13:29

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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I can confirm the government position remains the same as set out by the then-Foreign Secretary last

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week. I joined the House in the

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I joined the House in the condemnation of the strikes and the impunity afforded to Israel as it carries out the ongoing genocide in Palestine has important leaders of Israel to launch assaults in Libya, Sudan, Tunisia, and has cost Sudan, Tunisia, and has cost thousands to flee their homes throughout the region. It is the throughout the region. It is the Minister not concerned that the British government's continued support for a rogue state support for a rogue state perpetrating repeated violations of international law will lead to Israel invading other countries and Israel invading other countries and undermine UK security and

13:30

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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credibility on the world stage? Does he agree Qatar has the right to defend itself against this

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You I have set out our position with the whole range of Israeli actions the whole range of Israeli actions to which we disagree, so I wouldn't categorise our position in the way

13:31

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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categorise our position in the way that he did, and I have set out our position on the relevant questions

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of international law already, as far as that. Can the Minister confirm whether the Attorney-General will publish the Attorney-General will publish any advice he or the government have received on whether there has been

13:31

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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received on whether there has been breaches of international law during the conflict in Gaza? Thank you. the conflict in Gaza? Thank you.

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Mr Speaker, I think that is more properly a question for the Attorney-General. There has been some correspondence between him and

13:31

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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some correspondence between him and his shadow, but I will revert and what the latest Attorney-General's position is on that question.

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Having witnessed the Israeli army massacre over 60,000 people in Gaza, 19,000 of whom are children, the bloodsoaked tentacles of the Israeli bloodsoaked tentacles of the Israeli army are now reaching closer to home, especially in my case. Yesterday afternoon, in Johar, my Yesterday afternoon, in Johar, my knees, with her daughter, was spending living time together in the library. When the bomb by the Israeli army, which this government Israeli army, which this government fails to condemn, as a genocide, fails to condemn, as a genocide, dropped a bomb two streets away from where they were.

The buildings shook, smoke everywhere, and up to shook, smoke everywhere, and up to this point, my niece's baby, still asking will it happen again? So, I asking will it happen again? So, I asked the Minister, will it happen again? What is this government going to do beyond empty words? When are we going to call for a complete and utter arms sales, completed stopping

13:32

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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every single arms sales to Israel, imposing political and social

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sanctions, and getting power into Gaza. Mr Speaker, I think I have

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Mr Speaker, I think I have answered these questions on arms and answered these questions on arms and sanctions already in this session. I want to be clear, we have condemned the strikes, we do not want to see the strikes, we do not want to see them again, we have discussed with the allies, including, I hope, at

13:33

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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the Security Council this evening, we will no doubt keep the House updated as to how those discussions go.

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First of all, I thank the Minister for his very competent Minister for his very competent replies to the questions today and wish him well in the role he plays, these things are never easy, but the these things are never easy, but the Minister has done quite well for the loss of life is regrettable in all situations, this house must also situations, this house must also condemn the callous murders of six innocent Israelis, two rabbis, and women, a day before the attack took place.

Does the Minister acknowledge place. Does the Minister acknowledge the UK must share pertinent with Israel, to make sure targeted attacks take place at that Israel attacks take place at that Israel can cut the head off the snake? And then and only then can there be then and only then can there be peace in Israel and Gaza, by ensuring that it is targeted and eradicated effectively.

13:34

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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eradicated effectively. Mr Speaker, I thank the

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Mr Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his kind words. I have set out clearly our absolute opposition to Hamas on a absolute opposition to Hamas on a whole range of questions, but also I have set out in our understanding of international law while we condemn the strikes and why we don't want to

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see them repeated. That concludes the Urgent Question. We will move onto the next

13:34

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the violation of Poland’s airspace by Russian drones

Question. We will move onto the next one. Frontbenchers, changeover. The Urgent Question. Shadow Secretary of State.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. To ask the Secretary of State for defence if you will make a statement on the you will make a statement on the invasion of Polish airspace by Russian drones. Russian drones. First in the House, very serious topic to be discussing. Last night, topic to be discussing. Last night, as we know, Poland shutdown several Russian drones that entered its airspace, Russia stated the drones airspace, Russia stated the drones were part of a coordinated Russian attack on targets across the border of Ukraine, but it is a barbaric of Ukraine, but it is a barbaric attack on Ukraine that they go through every evening.

This is an unprecedented violation of Polish airspace. Deep enough, indeed, for airspace. Deep enough, indeed, for Warsaw airport to be close. I would like to thank, in particular, the

13:35

like to thank, in particular, the Polish and NATO air forces for responding rapidly and effectively responding rapidly and effectively to protect the alliance. The areas affected were border regions, in Belarus, on the border of Belarus and Ukraine. Poland temporarily

13:35

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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closed the airspace and some airports. Emergency alarms were issued for the regions affected. But airspace and most airports have now, luckily, reopen. Mr Speaker, Russia's actions are absolutely and utterly reckless, unprecedented, and dangerous. It serves to remind us of President Putin's blatant disregard for peace and a constant bombardment of -- That innocent Ukrainians face every day. Donald Tusk has announced Poland will invoke article 4, NATO article 4, which allows any ally to consult with others when they believe their territorial integrity, political independence or security, is threatened.

The Prime Minister has been in contact with Prime Minister Donald Tusk to make absolutely crystal clear the UK's support for Poland and we will stand firm in our support for Ukraine. The Defence Secretary is meeting E5 counterparts today, we will discuss what additional support we can provide including to reinforce Ukraine and strengthen NATO, and we stand in full solidarity with our ally, Poland. We condemn this action. We say to Russia, your aggression only strengthens the unity between NATO nations. Your aggression only strengthens our solidarity to stand with and beside Ukraine.

It reminds us that a secure Europe needs a strong Ukraine. With our allies and partners, and through UK leadership of the coalition of the willing, we will continue to ramp up the pressure on Putin, until there is a just and lasting peace.

13:37

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this Urgent Question. Can I begin by expressing our total solidarity with the people of Poland. As the opposition, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the government in support of a strong NATO ally. Poland is a great nation and a great friend of Britain. Our thoughts are with their people and we fully support all efforts to rally our NATO allies, and ensure that Poland's invocation of article number four is responded to in the swiftest possible time.

This is an unprecedented violation of Polish and NATO airspace that must be met with total condemnation and a robust response. Same as the latest bombings of Ukraine, as Russia continues to target civilians, and conduct an unprovoked war of aggression without any regard for human life. Can the Minister share with us what, if any judgement they have been able to form in the precise motivation of this drone incursion? If this were the case, this was designed to address NATO's resolved, is it not the case that Putin will have already seen how strong the resolve is to stand united against this aggression? We understand Dutch F-35s were directly involved in the response, and fighters from other NATO nations may have been scrambled.

It is not sobering to reflect that the F-35s from the Netherlands followed us in rotating a support for Poland and therefore, if this incursion had occurred just weeks ago, RAF typhoons could have been directly involved? On the specifics of how joint NATO response, can the Minister say what invoking article 4 means in practical terms for the UK and our allies and what the next steps are. Importantly, can he outline what discussions the UK government is having with our US counterparts on these developments, and above all, given that this incident involves use of lethal Russian drones against a fellow NATO member, what further steps as the government is now considering to constrain Russia's ability to throw closest allies, and give support to Poland.

In light of the Norway deal, the Minister will be aware that one of the largest defence export deals concluded with the previous government, was the sale of ground- based air defence for Poland. In the week, doesn't that show that such industrial collaboration with our allies is important, not just economically but defending close allies, and to conclude, there are those who may question the nature of the Russian threat, or question the need to significantly increase defence spending. These events should leave nobody in any doubt that the threat extends beyond Ukraine.

And therefore, we must continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, with Poland, and with all our NATO allies.

13:39

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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Would like to thank the honourable member for his response and also the bipartisan -- Support for what has been a really serious issue. The clarity and article follows a consultation mechanism for ally perceives its territorial integrity, its political independence or its security is threatened, it can invoke article 4 and that is what Poland has done. Discussions will then take place in the North Atlantic Council, NATO's senior political body, of which the UK will absolutely, of course, be involved.

I mentioned earlier on in my speech, the status of the attacks. Poland stated the drones were part of a coordinated Russian attack on targets across the border in Ukraine, but that doesn't, in any way, shape, or form, excuse those attacks. Those attacks are an unprecedented violation of Polish airspace and an -- On an unprecedented scale. I agree that the collaboration we have with our allies and partners is essential as we move forward. As NATO moves forward. And as our partners and allies relationships move forward, to make sure we are prepared in anyway, shape or form, whether escalation or indeed a crisis shall come across us.

We are doing huge amounts to lead our allies and partners, in response to Ukraine. Just as we speak, the Secretary of State is with the E5, he is talking about the coalition of the willing, he has talked to Poland representatives already, and of course, we are leading the way in the coalition. Its formation, its structure, and of course, how it is going to deploy. Should it need to do so, if peace ever comes to Ukraine.

13:41

Derek Twigg MP (Widnes and Halewood, Labour)

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Can I welcome the Minister's statements. Is it the case that this again is another example of what Russia really believes in, and that is complete annihilation of Ukraine. It doesn't care what collateral damage it does elsewhere. Although I believe this was a deliberate move by the Russians to, in terms of sending drones across into Poland, and I welcome Whatley Polish antenatal response was. Isn't this an example of where we really need to be talking about ramping up support for Ukraine? Industrial cooperation, in terms of making sure they get more munitions, more equipment, quicker, better, and wrapping up sanctions as well.

We also need to consider, with the also need to consider, with the Budget coming up, how we ramp up and increase further defence spending ahead of the recent targets being set out.

13:42

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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Would like to thank the honourable friend for his question and also his support for defence as a whole. I completely agree that the Ukrainians are going through a serious violation of international law by a barbaric and reckless leader within Russia. They are experiencing bombing, drone attacks, ballistic missile attacks, which you can hear, subterfuge, hostagetaking, huge large-scale kidnapping of children. Air raids go every night in Ukraine, reminiscent of World War in Ukraine, reminiscent of World War II.

The wailing of those sirens, just alone, have a psychological impact that will last long after any more finishes. So, why today is this happening? Because of Putin's barbaric unprovoked illegal invasion of a sovereign state and we must continue to do the maximum amount to ensure that we support Ukraine and encourage their allies and partners. We have done a significant amount. If you will recall, the last UCG, we did a 50 Day Dr to deliver more for Ukraine for some 50 days on from that, we had 5 million rounds of munitions, 6,000 artillery shells, rockets, missiles, to win 5,000 -- Just 500 missiles, electric defence systems, and on top of that, we had 70 million plan to provide 358 defence missiles, and finally 150 million to provide air defence and artillery.

We are the leading-edge, we have been for a long time coming supporting Ukraine, and we will continue to do so long into the future.

13:44

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Overnight, Poland faced an unprecedented violation of NATO and Polish airspace. The latest act of belligerence by a Russian dictator, hellbent on recreating the Russian Empire. This is a stark reminder that history cannot repeat itself. These drones were part of Russia's latest large-scale assault on Ukraine, where 450 drones were launched. We thank the Polish Air Force for protecting the NATO alliance and we stand with our allies. No matter what President Trump leads, it is clear that President Putin is not stopping.

He is testing NATO's limits. A line has been crossed. And we must collectively stand up to this aggression. This government must take tangible action, so will the Minister take forward the Liberal Democrat proposals to end the import of products and process from Russian companies, stop UK companies from shipping Russian natural gas, and push for a further cut to the oil price cap. As Donald Tusk said this morning, actions speak louder than words, the Tsongas action we can take with you beta sees the frozen Russian assets across the UK, so Russian assets across the UK, so will the Minister commit to doing that today? that today?

13:45

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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, like to thank the honourable member for her contribution and of course support for defence. I think she bought a really valuable point. Those that do not read history are doomed to repeat it. This was an precedented attack. -- This was a unprecedented attack on it was a violation of Polish airspace, we are working hard with the Polish nature were they have everything they need, and indeed our broader NATO alliance. We already have significant sanctions on Russia, and I know there is work going on between the Department, the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office, to look at how we can move that forward, and we will update you in due course.

due course.

13:45

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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The appalling attack on Ukraine as a violation of Polish airspace yesterday simply highlights the increasingly devastating use of drones in modern warfare. I have been contacted by constituents today expressing their anxiety and fears as to what this might mean for our shores. Would the Minister share plans of the government to ensure the UK's zone and a defence Abilities meet the challenge of the changes we are seeing in modern

13:46

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would like to thank him for his contribution, he will know I am passionate about the need for us to increase our armed cruise systems. We have committed within the defence industrial strategy and the SDR to create a recruit centre of excellence that will help us with the concept and integrate drones the concept and integrate drones back into the military. A mix of systems. Every night, night or night, we have seen an increase on drone attacks in Kyiv and cities from Dnipro to Zaporizhzha and Kherson and back again.

It is on an unprecedented scale. Some could argue Putin has been emboldened recently, but we must do everything recently, but we must do everything we can to support Ukraine. we can to support Ukraine.

13:47

Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)

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I recommend the honourable gentleman's statement right now and our support for Poland. It is important we must do so. The main issue is Russia's intense bombing attacks on Ukraine. I recently came back from Ukraine and you could, every night, in Kyiv, Lviv and other towns, people are being killed. This is just an example of what is going on across-the-board at a greater scale. Have the government really made overtures to the US president to say, the time is over for these constant statements that we may do something, we will do something, we will do some sanctions.

Surely now we have to get the US massively the level of sanctions. Also, European nations have got to be told, you cannot buy any more oil or gas that has been run through India or whatever. That has to stop. We have to make that work and we have to make sure that at the end of it all, Russia now pays a penalty, right now. Will the British Government please take the opportunity when the president comes over? Enough is enough.

Please act and get this thing done. thing done.

13:48

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would like to thank the right honourable member for his contribution and his store what support on defence issues and issues of foreign affairs. -- Store what. The sanction programme has been impressive to date, when the US comes over there will be discussions on a range of topics, of which Ukraine will probably be central to it alongside other issues important to the UK. Imposing a penalty is to the UK. Imposing a penalty is what -- is what we have done.

We have seen a huge uplift in defence is going to Ukraine. And we have seen an uplift in Europe, because industry is required to maintain the scale and pace of the conflict, which I think has cut people out in which I think has cut people out in the past.

13:49

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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I want to follow on with the question from the right honourable gentleman, the reality is that Putin has got involved since he met President Trump, not only is the pressure for an immediate ceasefire, getting a long-term, distant peace arrangement that is not going to happen, as we all know. And the threat of sanctions from the US which she was frightened about has been partly taken off the table. When President Trump comes over here, can my honourable friend engage with colleagues in the Foreign Office to try to put pressure on President Trump to say that we should recognise that the one thing that can be done now to get President Putin to back off and properly look at a ceasefire is further sanctions from the US to marry those that ourselves and European colleagues have put on?

13:50

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would like to thank my honourable friend for his contribution. That's three different people who have talked about sanctions. We will discuss this with across government colleagues in due course. I would not underestimate the ability of the Americans to act, I would not underestimate it under the short, medium or long-term. One of the key points we have here by having a US visit of such a level gives us the opportunity to discuss these issues in person and really highlight what is important to us.

And the importance of being in the tent to have these discussions, both as a government and every party and everybody. everybody.

13:51

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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It is no accidental violation of NATO's air space. But as NATO members, one can argue it is a violation of our own air space. Is it not clear that Russia is testing NATO's resolve and Putin will NATO's resolve and Putin will ruthlessly exploit any real or perceived diplomatic, military or political weakness? I get the Minister's point on calibration and proportionality. I get that. But what does a robust response mean? Following from the earlier question from the Labour benches, what about UK air defences, given there are many Russian ships around all of these aisles where drones can easily be deployed? be deployed?

13:52

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would like to thank the honourable member for his contribution. The intelligence agencies will be able to provide the best analysis on this. I'm not going to jump to conclusions as to the intentions of this attack. But it has been clear over several years has been clear over several years now that there has been consistent testing of NATO as a whole, whether 20,000 cyber-attacks from hostile states in the last two years, whether that is the use of chemical radiological weapons on UK soil, or a litany of other instances.

It comes to the strategy, I support Ukraine's strategy of keeping the Ukraine's strategy of keeping the pressure on the Russians to make sure they come to the table. I support the US peace process but it must be central to the Ukrainian's must be central to the Ukrainian's view and they must lead it from their perspective.

13:53

Oliver Ryan MP (Burnley, Labour )

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I'm glad to hear the Minister's resolve, the Whole House's condemnation and shock at these outrageous attacks. The UK must stand firm for NATO, with NATO, for Poland and Europe and increase our support for Ukraine and neighbours in Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Lithuania and elsewhere. What steps has the Minister taken, following from the question before, to review our own defences in line with recent events?

13:53

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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First of all, we are fully in support of NATO allies and our Baltic allies. The last time article 4 was invoked was 2022 and that was by Baltic allies, with the invasion of Ukraine. It has been invoked eight times, the most recent one this morning. When we talk about air defence, I'm not going to give the details on the operation but we have a suite of capabilities. If you are to read the strategic defence review, defence industrial strategy, there is a large proportion on industrial rebuild in the UK and supporting allies with joint- venture's and partnerships to re- establish the military industrial base of Europe in these unprecedented times.

Central to that will be a defence.

13:54

Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)

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I understand that Ukraine holds approximately 190 million frozen Russian assets. Press reports today suggest they are showing a level of flexibility in their stance of releasing them as long as they get some legal guarantees from the European Union around risks that they may face. Is the government supporting the European Union to unlock this opportunity that could help support efforts in Ukraine? help support efforts in Ukraine?

13:55

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I thank the honourable member for his question. We support the ability to get resources into Ukraine in any way shape or form. On the specific matter, I will take that away with the Home Office and government Back to you with the answer.

13:55

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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Constituents with links to Poland will be terrified at last night's development. They will also be reassured that the Polish people, just as the Ukrainian people, do not stand alone. NATO supreme headquarters confirmed that last night we saw not just Polish defence but Dutch F-35, German Patriot batteries and Italian early warning aircraft all involved in the mission. The EU High Commissioner talked about increasing their involvement in the eastern shield project, which we are already part of. Can the Minister update the House about his conversations with our European counterparts last night our European counterparts last night and what more we can do to stand with the Polish and Ukrainian people?

13:56

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would diet to thank Polish and NATO air defence forces for disrupting that attack that took place yesterday. As you will know, the Defence Secretary is discussing the specific issue. We are looking

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at a bilateral defence treaty with the Polish. I recently visited the Royal Air

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I recently visited the Royal Air Force in Poland during their recent deployment and saw first-hand RAF typhoons scramble to intercept... Poland feels that threat from Russia much more keenly than we appreciate much more keenly than we appreciate in this House. While we do not face the risk that Poland do, what steps the risk that Poland do, what steps is the government taking to ensure our own territory, critical infrastructure and military bases infrastructure and military bases here and overseas each has an

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here and overseas each has an organic capability that can be brought to bear? We need to have an integrated air defence system with European NATO allies, absolutely. We must also look after critical national infrastructure. That is why the SDR and industrial strategy has a focus

13:57

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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and industrial strategy has a focus on rebuild, part of that is air defence. We are working with Ukrainian allies to learn from their best practice.

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The shocking escalation of hostilities by Russia is not only provocative, but threatens all provocative, but threatens all states. An ironclad responses states. An ironclad responses required. Will the ministry and NATO required. Will the ministry and NATO partners be reminding on Article 5,

13:58

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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partners be reminding on Article 5, an attack on Poland is an attack on

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all NATO partners, including the United Kingdom. We will absolutely do that. It is

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We will absolutely do that. It is worth noting that article 4 and article 5 are not linked, but we

13:58

article 5 are not linked, but we will be doing -- going all out to remind all allies and partners of the severity of the situation and the continuing barbaric nature of

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Putin's invasion of Ukraine. What is this government doing to highlight and explain to the highlight and explain to the citizens of this country what our obligations are to the citizens of Poland, Latvia, Estonia and all NATO Poland, Latvia, Estonia and all NATO allies under Article 5? And the role of the joint framework plays with

13:59

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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of the joint framework plays with the Baltic three, Nordic five, Netherlands and the UK? Thank you.

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I think the member brings up a really important point. One of the biggest impacts to cost of living across this country is that war with across this country is that war with Ukraine and Russia. It is having a Ukraine and Russia. It is having a second effect that affects everyone in the country. It is worthwhile in the country. It is worthwhile reminding our citizens of that, if Article 5 had been enacted, we would have an obligation to defend and

13:59

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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have an obligation to defend and that is so important when we look at focusing on our foreign policy and where we need to prioritise our resources.

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The UK and Poland have a very

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The UK and Poland have a very close defence and security relationship. They are one of our most important European allies. What most important European allies. What plans does the Minister have to strengthen this relationship and that without other allies? Does he that without other allies? Does he agree that we need to do all we can to calmly make clear to our population here that the defence of population here that the defence of the free world is being tested and we all need, collectively, to be

14:00

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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we all need, collectively, to be resolute in our response?

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I would like to thank it for the question. For 24 years in the question. For 24 years in the military I have never seen it so fractious or fragile as it is, particularly today. I think it is on particularly today. I think it is on all of us to make sure the population understands the risk and the geopolitical environment that surrounds us and gives us our surrounds us and gives us our standard of living we have here in the UK. With Poland we are working towards a bilateral security

14:00

Stuart Anderson MP (South Shropshire, Conservative)

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towards a bilateral security agreement with them that will deepen

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ties. I believe this was a deliberate attack by Putin to test the resolve and resources of NATO and we will see more of these in the coming weeks, months and years. What I have weeks, months and years. What I have also seen is that Russia were quick on disinformation, pumping the on disinformation, pumping the airways in cyberspace. Can we ensure we are providing all resources to counter disinformation because it is a battle space on its own and ensure we are ramping up with the current threat that Russia is pushing out

14:01

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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threat that Russia is pushing out I would like to thank the honourable and gallant friend for his contribution in support and his contribution in support and defence affairs. Although quite disparaging, NATO is the most effective military alliance in effective military alliance in history and its numbers and capacity far outweigh some of our far outweigh some of our adversaries. One of the areas I do believe has a fantastic demand believe has a fantastic demand capability is the operations, and we play a part in it.

That is why taken the messages we have today and

14:01

Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)

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the messages we have today and making sure the nations and individuals within our constituencies understand the second and third order effects of potential escalation.

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For many years, Banbury has been home to thousands of Polish citizens who will understandably be very concerned at events over the past 24-hour's. Can the Minister reassure

14:02

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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24-hour's. Can the Minister reassure them that, not only is the relationship with Poland steadfast but this government is taking steps but this government is taking steps

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to strengthen it, despite Putin. The one thing President Putin's actions have done is they pull NATO actions have done is they pull NATO together, they forge alliances, they forge partnerships, the focus was in on the barbaric nature of Russia's aggression. I have worked with the Polish in the past, we have a great Polish in the past, we have a great relationship with the Polish, they are increasing defence spending, there are industrial opportunities there, and we have great cultural ties with Poland, whether that goes

14:02

Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)

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ties with Poland, whether that goes to the Air Force in World War II, all the way through to the latter years. years.

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Can I first congratulate and salute the brave aircrew that intercepted this flagrant breach, not just of:'s airspace but of not just of:'s airspace but of international rules based order. -- international rules based order. -- Not just of Poland's airspace. I don't believe for a second this was an inadvertent mistake, I think this an inadvertent mistake, I think this is classic Russian playbook, they were probing NATO in attack and I were probing NATO in attack and I will continue to probe until they come up against the resistance they deem worthy of a change in policy.

Russia responds in two ways. One is for strength, and one weakness. And if they see weakness, they will

14:03

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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if they see weakness, they will continue. Can the Minister help us understand in the House what that robust response to that flagrant attack will look like?

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As I mentioned earlier, when these incidents take place at forges the alliance and it focuses it, and the alliance and it focuses it, and it takes away any friction, because we create unity of effort. So, it is a miss move by Putin to think that a miss move by Putin to think that it doesn't really make NATO it doesn't really make NATO stronger. We are looking at Terra, whether it is by punishment or denial, Ukraine is holding back one

14:04

Graeme Downie MP (Dunfermline and Dollar, Labour)

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of the biggest militaries in the world, a million casualties. And denial is greater NATO unity and focus on the aggressor that is President Putin.

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This attack by that Amir Putin by NATO member and one that has been a NATO member and one that has been a leader in Russian aggression and supplying Ukraine as a clear escalation and attempt, as others escalation and attempt, as others have said, to probe NATO defences, have said, to probe NATO defences, can emit a Shobie that the UK and NATO will not be intimidated and the government is considering robust government is considering robust military options to stand up to this bully in Moscow, and closer to home, can he assure me that these attacks also confirm the urgency to escalate

14:04

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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also confirm the urgency to escalate and accelerate our own development of the type LXXXIII frigate and the air system, so a country is fully

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protected in the future as well. , like to thank the honourable friend for his contribution, as a stormwater champion for both Ukraine stormwater champion for both Ukraine and defence. I have never been intimidated in my life, we as a country will not be intimidated. And country will not be intimidated. And neither will NATO. I would like to reiterate our Defence Industrial Strategy is absolute critical. Giving weapons Ukraine is one thing, building industrial capacity to building industrial capacity to generate massive actually how you win wars.

That how the FDR's first

14:05

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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70 pages are all about industry. In the Minister's excellent response, he talked about the geopolitical situation. During my geopolitical situation. During my time in office, I saw more and more cooperation between Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran, and he talked about the involvement of Putin, does about the involvement of Putin, does he share my concern that the recent show of unity at the organisation for Shanghai Corporation summit in China may well have emboldened China may well have emboldened Putin, and in response to that, it should be a wake-up call, for Western democracies, all Western

14:06

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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Western democracies, all Western democracies, to stand together in

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defence of their mutual values. Absolutely agree we must stand together for those mutual values. together for those mutual values. Whether that is the right to independence, the right to self- determination, collective security, determination, collective security, et cetera. Yes, he may feel emboldened, but I would argue his actions today, is actually actions today, is actually strengthened the alliance. It does galvanise, and I can guarantee the discussions that will take place discussions that will take place will be absolutely focused at Russia.

And that then drives Russia. And that then drives economic growth, drives spending into defence, so, I would argue, it

14:06

James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)

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is not just a short across-the-board about a shot in the foot from Putin. -- Not just a shot across the border, but a shot in the foot from Putin.

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Are you ready to ask a question? I apologise. Poland is one of our closest European allies with a long shared history, and in my region of the East Midlands, that has embodied in our large British Polish community whose roots go back over community whose roots go back over 80 years. In light of last night's attack, what are the government's plans to strengthen our deterrence on NATO's north-eastern flank?

14:07

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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on NATO's north-eastern flank? Poland is one of our strongest allies. Poland is interested in allies. Poland is interested in building one of the biggest land forces in Europe. In its recapitalisation program, it is of a significant scale, because it has a large land border. So, from my perspective, working with them towards the bilateral defence and security treaty is absolutely essential from our perspective, due to the industrial and bilateral benefits that will bring. We stand side-by-side with the Polish, no questions, no doubts.

And we stand questions, no doubts. And we stand absolutely at the centre of NATO defence policy.

14:07

Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)

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In my constituency of Stratford- upon-Avon, we also have a large Polish community, who have been alarmed to see Russian drones violating Polish airspace. We all know that if Ukraine were to fall to Putin's aggression, Poland would be next. In his sights. How is the government intending to support Poland in defending its sovereignty and what steps is the government taking to strengthen our own security?

14:08

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I would like to thank the honourable member for her contribution. And thank the Polish contribution. And thank the Polish members of our -- Of her constituency, for supporting Poland during these times. We have a multitude of capabilities, in multitude of capabilities, in Poland, we have rotated through., as mentioned, by the opposite benches, there was a NATO enhanced policing, which has stopped a couple of months ago and rotated around. We also have a cavalry squadron there, working with the Polish and the US as well.

But they are also a central pillar to the Polish, as we move forward. So everything is done by, wave, and So everything is done by, wave, and alongside our Polish allies. -- By, with. Talk what can I join the Minister in his condemnation of this Minister in his condemnation of this clear escalation against our Polish allies. My honourable friend will know that in my constituency, we have a large Polish diaspora, who are extremely concerned about their country, and fearful of further Russian attacks. What assurances can Russian attacks.

What assurances can he give to the Polish community in my constituency, but across the country, and what work will he do across the government to support the Polish community at this difficult time? The assurance we can give is that NATO is the most effective military alliance of all time. Poland, the UK, and their allies sit central to that. The centrality of that alliance is the best form of deterrence and therefore the best form of assurance, to both people in your constituency and across the whole NATO alliance, and a central to our defence policy as we move forward.

14:10

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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President Zelensky has been consistent in his argument that the invasion of his country is just the beginning. And that we are all in beginning. And that we are all in the crosshairs. He made that argument very forcefully, famously, in the Oval Office. Does the Minister not agree with me that what has happened in relation to this violation of Polish and NATO airspace, completely vindicates President Zelensky?

14:10

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I have met President Zelensky several times and I am a keen observer of the conflict, as it has moved forward. A million ritual -- Russian casualties, vodka Ltd is on the frontline that would reflect any battlefront or frontline from the First World War to the Second World War, what is happening there was absolutely atrocious and I'm always really clear that deterrence, yes, peace, but appeasement? No.

14:11

Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, like the honourable member for Huntington, I was also part of the excellent Armed Forces parliamentary scheme visit to operation chessmen in Poland earlier this year, and I in Poland earlier this year, and I also saw this crumbling of our jet up into the sky, to check out suspicious Russian error activity. That was a surprise to me, but speaking to RAF personnel found that that was actually quite common at the time and later on, speaking to our Polish counterparts, this is what they are facing in Poland, and the public there are well aware of the threat.

Here in this country, I am not so sure the British public quite get how serious this threat is. In Poland, they are on the physical frontline for some people in Ukraine are paying the horrible price of Putin's aggression. Can the Minister reassure this House and the public that this government is doing all it can to deal with the Russian threat in terms of cyber attacks, its grey warfare on Europe, and its grey warfare on Europe, and indeed, our country.

14:12

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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I thank the honourable friend for his question. I think he points to a really important point. We must not alarm the nation, we must not scare the nation. We must be honest with the nation, as to the risks and threats opposed towards us, our defence, and indeed the citizens of this country. And we need to be clear with that. That is why in a defence review, you will see some talks on military defence and review going on, because we have got to make sure if we're going to explain to the population why we are spending more defence that is related to those threats, so we're going to clearly explain it.

The STO has stated that. And we're going to double down on industry to ensure we can contribute to NATO in an absolutely above and beyond meaningful way. -- The SDR has stated.

14:12

Rt Hon Gavin Robinson MP (Belfast East, Democratic Unionist Party)

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In November 2022, the Honourable

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In November 2022, the Honourable members mentioned rockets, one of which went into Poland and killed two Polish nationals. That day, two Polish nationals. That day, Poland considered triggering article 4 and today, clearly, they have done so. But in the intervening almost 3. so. But in the intervening almost 3. There has been an a growing reluctance to equip Ukraine in their reluctance to equip Ukraine in their skies, and defend their skies from these guys. So, whilst this article these guys.

So, whilst this article for number four meeting will show how we protect these guys of NATO,

14:13

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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cannot the -- This guys of NATO, can the Minister explain how we will effectively defend the skies of

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Ukraine? A great question from an individual who I know is a war individual who I know is a war supporter of defence. There is, from my perspective, as we forward with the strategic defence review, an the strategic defence review, an industrial strategy to ensure we revitalise our defence industry, so we reduce importantly a mix of we reduce importantly a mix of high-end systems, that can act as high-end air defence, but also low- high-end air defence, but also low- end systems that can be used in an economic mismatch between cheap and high-end systems, and getting that mix is complicated, but I absolutely know, with both the Defence Industrial Strategy, the SDR, we intend to secure our British military, with mass-produced

14:14

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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hardware in due course. I entirely agree with the Minister, when he says that NATO was the most successful defence alliance the most successful defence alliance in history, but the reason for that is that until recently, the commitment of the United States to commitment of the United States to NATO was never in question. It is a NATO was never in question. It is a question now. Because of the nature of the incumbent of the White House. of the incumbent of the White House.

Either President Putin has some sort of hold over Donald Trump, about of hold over Donald Trump, about which we do not know. Or it is because he successfully flatters him. So, when President Trump is in the country, can we point out to him the country, can we point out to him in the strongest possible terms in the strongest possible terms Having had the red carpet rolled out forum in the Kremlin, this is the responsive couple of weeks later,

14:15

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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responsive couple of weeks later, that shows that Russia is showing nothing but disrespect to the White House and its occupant.

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I would like to thank the honourable member for his continued support to defence. The United States has been really clear that, States has been really clear that, like European nations, to spend more like European nations, to spend more on defence. It also has a multitude of different threats that it has to deal with. What I would say is that

14:15

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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deal with. What I would say is that the US president, when he comes to the UK, we are intent to sit down

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with him to discuss these issues in detail. I would like to put on record my respect for the bravery of the respect for the bravery of the Ukrainian children, who came to Parliament last night to share their stories. As survivors of Putin's war stories. As survivors of Putin's war of aggression. Putin's action last of aggression. Putin's action last night over Polish airspace was a deliberate move to test NATO's reaction, the response must match the moment. Can the Minister please the moment.

Can the Minister please push for a cohesive plan to seize those frozen Russian assets, and follow them to support the

14:16

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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humanitarian mission to support Ukraine's incredible aspiring

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support for future generations. My heart goes out to those children and everyone in Ukraine who children and everyone in Ukraine who was going through this and has done for several years and I guarantee the honourable member there are discussions ongoing now about how we discussions ongoing now about how we can push the system more to pressure Russia into coming towards the peace

14:16

Sarah Bool MP (South Northamptonshire, Conservative)

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Russia into coming towards the peace

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The Minister agreed with my honourable friend that industrial collaboration between the UK and Poland is an important part of our Poland is an important part of our relationship. The key parties on ground-based air defence. These

14:17

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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ground-based air defence. These events underline why that is critical to ourselves and allies. Can you say what progress that has been on the UK Poland during future common missile program to create ground-based air defence for both nations?

14:17

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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I do not have the details on the industrial partnership but I write back in due course. Their defence is

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critical, as is making sure we can secure our oceans and our land. It is good that across this House

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It is good that across this House there is universal recognition that there is universal recognition that last night was an attack not just on Polish airspace but NATO air space. Can I bring the Minister back to the question of sanctions? We have question of sanctions? We have sanctions on Russian crude oil, although sadly there is at least one country that does not implement country that does not implement that. In terms of refined oil, are we not in this country importing considerable quantities of Russian considerable quantities of Russian crude oil refined down? In the recent trade deal with India, was

14:18

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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recent trade deal with India, was there any attempt to put any restraint upon that?

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In the latter point, I will engage with cross government colleagues when we look at the colleagues when we look at the detail. Putting pressure on Russia is our priority to bring him to the

14:18

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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is our priority to bring him to the peace table at due course and we are working exceptionally hard to achieve that.

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Polish airspace is unprecedented but not isolated. The latest escalation in Russia's campaign of escalation in Russia's campaign of attacks on NATO allies. There was a attacks on NATO allies. There was a fire in Warsaw. Last week, a jet carrying the president of the EU suffered a cyber attack which was suffered a cyber attack which was initiated by Russia. They are not deterred. As a leading military deterred. As a leading military power in Europe and NATO, can the Minister outline what we can do to enhance and reinforce the capabilities of NATO allies on the frontline of this confrontation with

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Russia? I tell the honourable member we are doing that right now. The defence industrial strategy, strategic defence review industrial rebuild will ensure we have the right arms and enough of them to reinforce deterrence. And if called

14:19

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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to, fight and win. Russian drones over Poland

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Russian drones over Poland suggest Putin is testing NATO's suggest Putin is testing NATO's Can I urge the Minister to push President Trump and members of the G7 to produce a cohesive plan to seize the $300 million in frozen Russian assets held in their countries? And funnel this money to the Ukraine frontline? The money would transform Zelensky's efforts would transform Zelensky's efforts . Will the government commit to doing this? doing this?

14:20

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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The US is one of the most critical allies. When the president of the United States visits the UK, there will be a multitude of discussions focused on Ukraine,

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European security and NATO. Does the Minister agree we need

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Does the Minister agree we need to take stronger steps to deter Putin and staff seizing -- that starts with seizing billions of

14:20

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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starts with seizing billions of Russian assets. Putin has shown that

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if you give him an inch, he will take a mile. We have to continue to pressure

14:20

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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and pushed Putin to the peace table. That is a suite of things, from arming Ukraine through to sanctions and we will continue to do so.

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The Russian drones over Poland are tracked by Polish aircraft and Dutch aircraft to stations in Poland. Four years ago, Putin sought Poland. Four years ago, Putin sought a rollback in NATO deployments from Central and Eastern Europe. In 2021, Russia demanded NATO allies deploy no forces in countries that join the no forces in countries that join the alliance after 1997. Does the Minister agree that had the US

14:21

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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Minister agree that had the US exceeded to those demands, we might be seeing devastating consequences in Poland today?

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Interesting when we talk about deterrence, there are huge deterrence, there are huge multinational NATO exercises that

14:21

Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)

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take place every year. I was there during a naval exercise. We demonstrated how effective the NATO alliance is, and if called to, how it will fight and win.

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May I give my thanks to the

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May I give my thanks to the Polish and Dutch aircrews involved last night. The seats of their jets may have been manufactured and may have been manufactured and tested in my constituency at the airfield. That airfield could be

14:22

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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airfield. That airfield could be demolished thanks to proposals by Homes England to build a new town there. Will he meet with me to address urgently this threat to the UK national security?

14:22

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Yes.

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Can I congratulate the honourable and gallant Minister for his elevation, well deserved. Also elevation, well deserved. Also congratulate him on his comments that say you will not be intimidated. He speaks for us all. I can see a poster campaign coming on, can see a poster campaign coming on, as it should be, standing firm. as it should be, standing firm. Russian drones in the Polish nation Russian drones in the Polish nation is a slap in the face of NATO. What discussions will be held within NATO collectively to holding a robust

14:23

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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collectively to holding a robust response to the testing of borders

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and the resolution to stand fast against Russia? I would like to thank him for his question. There are discussions ongoing as we speak. We will continue to discuss this issue. I continue to discuss this issue. I can guarantee that the UK will be the centre of these discussions. No one will intimidate this great aisle

14:23

Points of Order

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one will intimidate this great aisle at all. That is the end of the urgent question on violation of Poland's

14:23

Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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airspace by Russian drones. Point of order. I wish to seek

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Point of order. I wish to seek your guidance on an issue which I believe breaches ministerial duty to respond to is in a timely manner. In October last year I wrote to the former Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology to raise concerns about the absence of legislation by service providers to give notice to residents before installing cables at their properties. I followed up in January, March, April, June and July will stop it has now been nine months without receiving a substantive reply.

I understand the new Secretary of State is new in his her job and I congratulate her. But this hinders my ability to represent this hinders my ability to represent my constituents. Can we get a response? response?

14:24

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Ministerial correspondence is not a matter for the chair but all honourable member should be entitled to expect a timely reply when they write to any member of the government. I can see the Treasury Front Bench nodding in agreement. I'm sure the Treasury Front Bench will now make sure appropriate department and Minister has been made aware and will respond to the honourable member as fast as they possibly can. Mr Corbyn, were you bobbing earlier for a point of order? Point of order.

14:25

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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I wish to raise an apology to the House for inadvertently misleading the House yesterday during the debate on the Chagos islands bill. In which, in column 816 of Hansard, I was discussing the role of... In relationship with David, the High Commissioner of Mauritius then, The pressure on David was enormous, he went to the extent of locking him in his office until they had a proper meeting. I have now checked this with him and I made a mistake there.

The background facts are that in early November 2000, David asked his committee to come to see him so they could discuss the High Court judgement allowing them to return to the outer islands. That was a friendly meeting. He goes on to say I had several meetings over the next few years with him and committee members, and although he regarded me as not on his side and renounced me in the press, he never locked me in in the press, he never locked me in his office.

So I hope can be satisfied that the truth is now told.

14:26

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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I thank him for the point of order and correcting in so much detail the record and at the earliest opportunity. I will let the Front Benchers shuffle over. Through Front Benchers shuffle over. Through the Presentation of Bills. the Presentation of Bills.

14:26

Presentation of Bill

Biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction bill.

14:27

Ten Minute Rule Motion: Neurodivergence (Screening and Teacher Training)

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Second Reading tomorrow. I now

14:27

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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14:36

Legislation: Bus Services (No. 2) Bill: Remaining stages

listed on the selection paper. I called the Minister to move new clause 38. Minister.

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I have the pleasure of opening

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I have the pleasure of opening today's reports database. I look forward to a lively discussion on the bill. And thank members of the House you are here to offer their views and talk to amendments that

14:37

Simon Lightwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Wakefield and Rothwell, Labour )

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views and talk to amendments that have been tabled. Before I move the government's report stage amendments, I would like to briefly recap why this bill is before the House today. Speak to the government's wider reform of buses. It provides an update on progress since the committee stage. The government is seeking to deliver government is seeking to deliver better bus services. This means patron edge and ensuring more people are able to use the bus. It also means leaders having power to shape the services in their communities.

Under bus services -- And bus services that help people move across the country, and reliable, and integrated bus services. The measures in the bill before the House today are working towards this vision. As are the wider reforms announced by the government. The fund buses. The recent Spending Review commitments under the expansion of the bus cap to March 2027, these form an ambitious set of interventions, interventions designed to reverse long-term trends and improve bus services. Consistent with this objective, and following engagement with my honourable friends, the members, I'm happy to confirm the updates to the statutory guidance will confirm expectations that franchising authorities consult representatives of prospective users and the statutory guidance on stopping places will set out the departments expectations for how safe and more accessible stopping places can encourage an increase in bus ridership, by providing facilities that people can and want to use.

As committee stage, there was a wide-ranging and detailed debate across both the bill's measures, and the bus policy more generally. And I committed to providing an update report stage and how my department is working with local authorities, active travel England, and bus operators, two ways awareness of certain cyclists behaviours around floating bus stops. Active travel England will share material with councils to promote awareness for the requirement of people cycling to give way to bus passengers are crossing points. This is alongside existing guidance on how to engage communities and design safe and accessible walking, wheeling and cycling infrastructure.

TfL are carrying out a campaign to raise awareness of the Highway code, with particular focus on the rules designed to protect people walking, cycling and motorcycling. The campaign highlights five key rules, which protect at-risk road users, and where there is poor compliance and understanding of the rules, including some of the rules, which were updated in 2022. This includes materials designed to remind road users, particularly cyclists, to give way at crossings and the bus stops. Active Travel England have been involved in this, with local authorities, outside of London in due course.

Furthermore, at committee stage, I set out that my department will ask local authorities to undertake an audit of existing sites, alongside setting out to them our expectation on a pause. Active Travel England's additional research include a national or, of floating bus stops. And I would advise authorities to work with them, in a collaborative way, on this, so we can gain a really accurate picture, where floating bus stops are in use. And what type, and therefore ensure future guidance is comprehensive. The department will publish statutory guidance on the design of floating bus stops within three months of Royal Assent.

This will be supported by additional research into the design of existing floating bus stops and how they can be improved to ensure they are accessible. Active travel England have provided funding to councils, and encourage them to review existing designs against the upcoming guidance, and, where required, implementing remediation works. Both audits of. Bypasses and remediation works can be funded using the active travel funding as a -- And essential. This has been brought forward with the Scottish government, reflects close collaboration with the UK government.

It provides greater uncertainty of the future demand in Scotland and I committed to ensuring that governments continue to work together as they move towards a full transition towards zero emission buses, this measure effectively renovates clause 37 of the bill, and restrict the use of new non-zero emission buses and services in Scotland. Power is provided to Scottish ministers under clause 38, and I just to those given to the Secretary of State and clause 37 of the Belfast amendments 45-50 are consequential amendments that were minor and technical in nature, related to making transitional or saving provisions.

This measure requires consent from the Scottish parliament, and if necessary, the government will return with an update. I now move to amendment 53, this is a technical amendment, which provides a clarification on the franchising verification procedure in the bill's schedule. Specifically, it clarifies the variation procedure that applies when a franchising authority wishes to have two minor aspects of the franchising scheme, namely the additional facilities, such as depots and ticketing facilities, to be provided within the franchising area.

And the description of the authority's plans on the consultation of the scheme effectiveness. This will help give franchising authorities clarity on the process and ensure that relevant parties are consulted on such changes. Amendment 57 provides further detail on who should be consulted, when a franchising authority varies plans for consultation on scheme , effective local authorities, relevant organisations, and passengers counsel. Amendments 31- 34, 51-52, and 54-56 are minor and technical amendments to remove unnecessary wording, the final set of amendments are number 35-45. These are minor and technical amendments that remove data protection overrides, which were previously inserted into the bill.

These overrides are actually no longer necessary, as the data use and access act of two to 25 received Royal Assent on the received Royal Assent on 19 June 2025 and these matters are now covered automatically by virtue of that legislation. I beg to move.

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Zero emission vehicles for service vehicles in Scotland. The question is clause be ready second time for tobacco shadow second time for tobacco shadow minister. -- I call the shadow

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minister. -- I call the shadow minister. Are we nodding? Yes, happy to go. Surprise to be

14:44

Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)

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15:07

Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)

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15:17

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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15:31

Grahame Morris MP (Easington, Labour)

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bus journeys in the north-east compared to 2010 which is a fall of nearly 1 third. The decline is not just a statistic but represents missed shifts, social isolation, and communities cut off. I want to speak communities cut off. I want to speak to clauses 25, 26, 27 and 35 from the MM in my name and my support for the new clause 45. Clause 47 would create a national forum of government, transport authorities, operators, trade unions.

The regulation has made it hard to have issues like skills and recruit tackled in the right way. There was an inquiry in 2018 when I was serving on the Bus Committee and it recommended the government strategy be underpinned by a national forum to share information on service improvements, workforce issues, safety. The National Audit Office urged the best practice to be continued by the Bus Centre Of Excellence. The new clause 25 would require all local transport authorities in reducing franchising to establish a joint forum with unions and operators.

The government unions and operators. The government does saying that it expects LTAs to engage with unions but expectation engage with unions but expectation is not a guarantee and living it at expectation will not guarantee meaningful engagement everywhere. We have heard that there are inconsistencies, including in the Thames Valley. Some LTAs are experienced at working constructively with unions but others are not and this would ensure meaningful engagement if you. The new clause is 25 and 35 on enhanced partnership, many local transport authorities will opt for enhanced partnerships instead of franchising.

That is a matter for them. At present, stick caudal forums -- stakeholder forums must include passengers and authorities but unions are not listed. I would respectively say to the Minister that we must involve those most directly affected and the workforce must not be excluded and the new clauses would remedy that, requiring trade union participation in every local partnership forum. In relation to clause 45, relating to night-time services, I support the new clause 45 tabled by my honourable friend added with established legal duty for councils to provide a minimum level of bus services at night-time ensuring workers such as nurses, factory staff can get home safely.

This is particularly important for women given nearly one in four will experience some sort of sexual assault in their lifetime. Night- time buses are a matter of safety. The new clauses taken together will form a coherent package with national oversight of best practice, matched by consistent workforce engagement at the local level and alongside the new clause 45 it shows what the bill should achieve, a bus system that is a comfortable, safe, responsive to the needs of passengers and staff.

If the government cannot accept the amendments, I would urge the Minister to commit to addressing these matters through guidance or a code of practice and to meet with trade unions and the stakeholders to decide how this might be achieved. The bill represents an opportunity to reshape services for the better but would be wasted if we repeat the mistakes of deregulation, fragmentation, inconsistency, and cycling the workforce. These amendments are about making sure that we get it right this time.

that we get it right this time.

15:37

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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his excellent new clause 2, which I wholeheartedly support and we have heard is designed to remove time restrictions upon which disabled persons' concessionary bus passes persons' concessionary bus passes can be used. The new clause 47 is very simple and I would like to think it is very logical. It simply think it is very logical. It simply requires that the Secretary of requires that the Secretary of State, in relation to the English National Concessionary Travel Scheme, should, within 12 months of Scheme, should, within 12 months of the actress you can grow assent, extend the scheme to include companion passes for disabled companion passes for disabled persons who require the assistance of a designated companion in order of a designated companion in order to use the bus network.

I was first alerted to this problem by a very alerted to this problem by a very effective lobby in Parliament a few effective lobby in Parliament a few months ago and other honourable and right honourable members may remember it and I was lobbied by a number of things to events who said to me that there was no much point in having a concessionary pass to use buses free of charge if they were not able to do so except when they were helped by a companion and it made a mockery of the concession in the first place.

I followed this in the first place. I followed this up with a visit to the new branch of Mencap and the implications were so obvious as to require little supporting argument. What is the point of giving somebody something free which they cannot use without the assistance of someone else unless they have the ability on the same bus pass to have a designated companion travel for free with them? A number of county councils, for example, allow this but it is a discretionary power.

It seems a rather strange discretionary power because there are a number of aspects to the scheme which are statutory requirements and I believe that this should one of them if it is not to make an nonsense, as I have explained, of the statutory requirement that the disabled person should have a free bus pass. I put down a couple of written questions and one in particular, number 48343 was tabled in April and asked the government of the review of the Concessionary Travel Scheme had actually made a recommendation on the question of companion passes for the disabled.

The answer read in part, "Department for Transport conducted a review and is currently considering the next steps." Did if you did not consider adding the statutory requirements to the scheme. -- The review. It added a standard answer which I've also received other questions on the topic that currently local authorities have the power to go beyond the responsibilities under the ENCTS and offer other arrangements. I printed to the House that if someone has a statutory duty to provide disabled people with a free bus pass, it ought to have a statutory duty for those who cannot use the free bus pass without a companion to require the authority issuing the past to include the designated companion on the same bus pass and this is not something that will be decided today but I hope the impeccable logic will appeal to the Minister on the bench and, within 12 months, he will take the action requested.

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Can ISA it is a pleasure to --

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Can ISA it is a pleasure to -- can I say that it is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. I rise follow the honourable member. I rise to support clauses 23 and 24. I begin by commending the Minister for his engagement with me on the spill. We've had good conversation and I'm sure he would agree, around the sure he would agree, around the thing bus stop. Nobody should be surprised to hear that I'm speaking surprised to hear that I'm speaking about floating bus stop.

For more than a decade, they have created a huge challenge for pedestrians. huge challenge for pedestrians. Active Travel England has rightly Active Travel England has rightly said bus stop should be easily accessible and that the roots should accessible and that the roots should be safe, direct, convenient, be safe, direct, convenient, accessible. Is there anybody in the House that does not agree?

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House that does not agree? I thank my honourable friend for giving me. I would the clear that she knows a bus stop in my constituency. -- declare. But she agree all the floating bus stop agree all the floating bus stop should be reviewed so that patients, when they are going to important sites like hospital, they do not have these issues. have these issues.

15:43

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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She will not be surprised to hear that I would hundred percent agree with that assessment. We are showing our age but all those years ago, we opposed the floating bus stop outside the local hospital because we knew that it would pose challenges for pedestrians. Pedestrians continue to be injured at floating bus stops with cyclists often failing to give way. Even though some have small zebra crossings, it is rare that you will see them stop. Partially sighted people are having to walk into cycle Get in the way of cyclist Get in the way of cyclist that Get in the way of cyclist that they cannot see independently and safely and not being able to travel independently is life-limiting.

It affects everything from accessing vital health services or from holding down a job or just being able to go out and socialise with friends. As I have said, anecdotally, we know that people are experiencing injuries at floating bus stops and, for that reason, I believe we must have hard data to address the problem properly and that is why my Amendment 21 would ensure data is gathered on floating bus stops and shared bus borders. As we know, they vary in design and samples more dangerous than others.

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I thank my honourable friend for Battersea for campaigning on the Battersea for campaigning on the issue and as a campaigner for build issue and as a campaigner for build producers she knows I have similar concerns that we often have issues. -- wheelchair users. It is often -- wheelchair users. It is often difficult for the person to exit difficult for the person to exit using the ramp and would she agree we must get that the same right for we must get that the same right for all people, whether they are blind, all people, whether they are blind, partially sighted, wheelchair users? I thank him for the point that he mixed well.

I'm certain the Minister mixed well. I'm certain the Minister has heard him loud and clear and with agree with those points. It is with agree with those points. It is so important, and I will come unto that, to get these designs right. If that, to get these designs right. If we are seeking to do what is best, we need to know what must be changed we need to know what must be changed and we have to collect the data on design and location of the floating bus stops to compare it to the bus stops to compare it to the numbers of collisions and injuries.

I very much welcome the further research that will be undertaken by Active Travel England to include a national audit and city review which I'm sure will be welcomed by many, to give an accurate picture of where the floating bus stops are induced so that can shape future guidance. I cope when the Minister stands, Keeble Sia more about when -- you will say more about when the research will commence. It will be welcome. I appreciate there will be an equality impact assessment of the bill on the call and some had been produced already but it is clearly concerns of blind and partially sighted people need particular focus when it comes to the shared borders and floating bus stops and the new clause 23 six to ensure we have a quality impact assessments on quality and to have an accessible transport system which we are striving for, we have to pay attention to the impact that transport decisions will have on The introduction of floating bus stops was in 2013 in London.

They have caused havoc. My honourable friend mentioned just over the bridge at St Thomas's Hospital. Even in my own constituency of Battersea, they just appear and they really do create a challenge for many. I would point out, it isn't just disabled people blind and partially sighted people. It is the elderly and families with young children with buggies. They do create a problem. I would go as far as to say that, in many respects, the safety interests of road users have sometimes been treated, what are the best way for me to describe it, have been treated more favourably to the detriment of other groups.

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Does she agree with me that actually by getting this right and actually by getting this right and making sure we do have stops that are accessible for everyone including partially sighted people, including disabled people, will including disabled people, will encourage more people to use public transport because they feel it is safe and accessible for them.

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safe and accessible for them. She's absolutely right. We are encouraging people to do more active encouraging people to do more active travel. We are encouraging people to use public transport. We need to make sure the transport network is make sure the transport network is fully accessible, and it is fully inclusive. I say to the Minister, inclusive. I say to the Minister, again, he has confirmed that upon Royal assent, there will be an Equality Impact Assessment Equality Impact Assessment published.

I would press him again to clarify that formally. Right now to clarify that formally. Right now we have a system that blind and partially sighted people say put partially sighted people say put them at risk. That is not just me with my own lived experience saying with my own lived experience saying this, it is many blind and partially sighted people saying it. And the many organisations that support them that have also said the same thing. Maybe we do need to rethink them. If I had my way, but I don't I had my way, but I don't unfortunately, I would ban them all frankly.

Because they have created a challenge. But nonetheless we are where we are. I'm pleased that the government wants to work to improve the situation, when it comes to them. That is why my new clause 24 create a duty of the government to carry out these independent assessments. I welcome the fact that it is clause 31 of the bill will seek to address some of those challenges. I also welcome the government's commitment to wanting to produce guidance, for local services around the country, to promote active travel but to make sure disabled people can travel independently, safely, but also in reasonable comfort.

I must say, it must be mandatory in my view. It cannot be optional. I know the Minister has heard me on this and he has confirmed that will be the case. I also want to say that I welcome the partial pause on some types of floating bus stops. As everyone has said, it is so important that we address some of those safety concerns before going to full-scale rollouts of these floating bus stops. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I close, I would like to thank the many organisations, The National Front and for the blind, the RNIB, and the many blind and partially sighted people, disabled people, transport forums and many different groups that have been campaigning on this issue relentlessly to ensure that we really have a public realm that is fully accessible and fully inclusive for us all to benefit inclusive for us all to benefit from.

Obviously I will not be pushing my amendment to a vote. I fully support the government in their endeavour, I support the government with this bill.

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I call Helen Morgan. North Shropshire is a very rural

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North Shropshire is a very rural constituency, and it is nestled in constituency, and it is nestled in against the Welsh border, which is wiggly I think the best way to wiggly I think the best way to describe it. That means my constituents have an experience of using buses that can be problematic. using buses that can be problematic. I have tabled some amendments to reflect their experience that I hope the Minister will reflect on. Shropshire is one of the worst Shropshire is one of the worst served counties for buses.

Having lost 66% of its bus miles in 2015. lost 66% of its bus miles in 2015. It has lost more smiles by percentage than any other county in percentage than any other county in England. The average loss of bus miles is about 20.9%. It has been a miles is about 20.9%. It has been a severe experience for my constituents. And towns have become isolated because the bus service is

15:52

Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)

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isolated because the bus service is so poor. I'm sure you have heard me say before, there is only one bus running in Shropshire on a Sunday. I am lucky enough to be able to report it does run from a town in my constituency but it is hardly an acceptable situation for my constituents. New clause 37, which has been signed by 30 colleagues from across the House reflecting it is not just the experience of my constituents but people in many parts of rural Britain.

It tries to address this problem of poor bus services in market towns by requiring the Secretary of State to say that a service must be available seven days a week. And that it consults with the relevant bodies to ensure those constituents using the bus service can access the central services. When I tabled the bus services number one bill it had this requirement in it. It was aimed essentially at getting people to hospital and other health services when they needed to. But equally it could be applied to schools, colleges, and other important destinations for people who find

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themselves so isolated. I thank the woman before giving way. In Bournemouth East I'm way. In Bournemouth East I'm campaigning to get a better bus route to Bournemouth airports. To improve the 33. And reinstate the service where the community feel service where the community feel very disconnected. Would she agree that one of the benefits of this that one of the benefits of this bill is it empowers local authorities to run their own bus companies, they could do such things as reinstate bus routes?

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as reinstate bus routes? I thank you for the intervention. I broadly supportive of the buildings I think it would do that. buildings I think it would do that. The point I'm about to make is the power to franchisees bus services is all very well, but the funding needs all very well, but the funding needs to follow the power as well. Otherwise constituencies like mine to see the improvements that they are desperate for. Colleagues have are desperate for. Colleagues have talked about the bus fare cap.

I am supportive of measures to keep that 2 pounds. I must point out that in constituencies like mine where there is very little in the way of bus is very little in the way of bus services, the cap has not made a huge amount of difference. And some of the operators have not opted into the cap. It is a limited impact for my constituents, important as it is. The £1 billion fund announced by the Department of Transport last November promised to give rural and November promised to give rural and coastal areas a real seachange in the bus services.

In Shropshire, which has the worst drop-off in its services and the whole country, only £2.5 million of revenue was allocated. That is the critical point I want to make, while I'm fully supportive of the measures in this bill that will allow local authorities to decide when bus services are essential. Regardless of the arrangements as to whether they are a combined authority or have a mayor. And the funding should follow need and not structure. I would urge the Minister to take that on board.

We are not voting on my amendment today. As I mentioned, many across the House have signed it. And there are similar amendments on the Order Paper which seek to achieve the same thing. To improve bus services for people living in rural areas and ensure that they are adequate to access the essential services that those people need to access. I would urge the Minister to consider the intentions of this amendment, the intentions of those similar amendments have been tabled by other colleagues.

And commit to some kind of improvement for rural areas when he makes his closing remarks. I also mentioned that rural Shropshire is pressed up against the border with Wales. On the border with Wales is very wiggly. That gives my constituents a specific challenge with the bus passes. It means that if they want to catch a bus between two destinations in England but that bus stops in Wales or changes in Wales, there bus pass is not valid. I think that is a bit crazy.

Example, if you wanted to go crazy. Example, if you wanted to go from Oswestry to Wrexham, sorry from Oswestry to Cheshire and had to change in Wrexham, the bus pass will not be valid. It is the one service that runs on a Sunday and you have to make sure people can use their bus passes when they are crossing the border. It seems to me this is a very low cost thing to sort out but it ought to be very easy for government to sort out.

My amendment requires the Secretary of State to liaise with the Welsh government and come up with a workable solution for what I think is probably an unintended consequence of devolution between England and Wales. I hope the Minister will take that on board and consider some sort of workable solution for people using their bus passes across the border. I also tabled new clause 14 which replicates the requirement for Scotland. I appreciate it does not impact my constituents in Scotland but in the name of being inclusive I put it in as well.

I have been proud to be one of the first signatories to new clause two tabled by the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough. I'm not going to take any credit for that because he has any credit for that because he has done the hard work. But I will urge the Minister to consider accepting the amendment today because this so important. Disability does not stop at 09 30.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.. I'm speaking in support of this bill I'm speaking in support of this bill in favour of new clause 22 in my name. I can now say in complete confidence that the privatisation confidence that the privatisation and deregulation of our bus services has been a catastrophic failure for has been a catastrophic failure for rural towns and villages like those across north-east Hertfordshire. across north-east Hertfordshire. Decades of dogmatic adherence to flawed ideology has created vast public transport deserts where residents have no meaningful residents have no meaningful alternative to driving a car.

The consequent social costs of this failure have been profound. More and

15:58

Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Independent)

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failure have been profound. More and more traffic that stifles our communities, chokes and rivers and air with life limiting pollution. Young people cut off from education and employment, forced to leave their homes to get on in life. Our elderly trapped in loneliness and isolation, it should be a source of shame for our entire nation. The privatisation disaster means, for those unable to drive or afford a car, a connected life in rural in as practically possible. So I welcome many of the clauses in this bill which together offer a chance to reverse the hollowing out of our villages, which threatens to end centuries of cultural and economic vibrancy.

We need a bus network that competitively meets the needs of every community, especially for rural areas that lost their train stations in the Beeching cuts, including Westerville, and others. That is why I have tabled new clause 22 which would empower ministers to conduct a review into the delivery of guaranteed bus service standards for every community of more than 300 residents across England. During the progress of this bill, I ran a survey on the experience of my constituents on their local bus services.

Hundreds of residents responded, and a massive, if unsurprising 83% found the bus services available to them did not offer a viable alternative to owning or driving a car. As I'm sure you can imagine, whether by the survey or in community meetings, constituents have been done to shy in sharing their thoughts about the quality, reliability, and general usefulness of local bus services. Consequently, it is completely clear to me that voters in north-east Hertfordshire are utterly fed up with a bus network based on profitability for shareholders rather than public need.

The measures in this bill addressing this with a long overdue strengthening of socially necessary bus services, are very welcome. To succeed in meeting the hopes of communities like those I represent, we should go further, and move towards universal basic rights to public transport, within tried service standards across the country replacing that threadbare patchwork and inadequate network left by deregulation. Although it may be difficult to imagine, given the current state of public transport in our nation, it is in fact something that other countries are quite happily already doing.

In Switzerland, region of Zurich guarantees villages 300 people are more at least an hourly bus service running seven days a week from 6am until midnight. Linking rural residents to regional facilities for employment, education, training, shopping, and leisure. Germany, North has it has a target of bus services reaching every village across the region every hour. Now is the time to show we are no less ambitious for our communities and set out on a path towards internationally leading bus services internationally leading bus services To achieve this, new clause 22 would trigger a review into setting bus standards in England and considering requirements based on population size and mortality based alongside funding arrangements for local authorities to implement the comprehensive network of this nature.

I look forward to the front bench response and hope it will be considered in the positive light that it is intended. I note the Minister argued against the clause at committee stage on the basis he believes the minimum level to guarantee services for communities exists in the Transport Act 2000 and, having reviewed this with the superb staff at the Commons Library, I have not identified such powers and, although I may be wrong on this point, regardless, communities I represent are not yet enjoying bus services remotely comparable to those delivered through guaranteed standards in Germany, Switzerland, elsewhere.

Of course it will require adequate funding and it is important to be upfront about that but, under successive governments, year on year, we have spent millions of pounds on wasteful, counter- productive and environmentally damaging roadbuilding schemes and analysis suggests redirecting the funding to the bus services constituents need for day-to-day lives would fully fund the services and the minimum standards across the country and the comprehensive work based on guaranteed minimum standards with transform public transport across the country, especially for rural areas, and represent the profound change Labour was elected to deliver and would inject new optimism into communities as people would find themselves able to make entirely different literacy.

An adult could choose to stay living close to friends and families as travel becomes a possibility. Key workers struggling with cost of living could avoid debt and hardship and not have to buy a second car and they would be expanded of talent and energy for employers. It is time for public transport that puts people before profit. The new clause 22

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would do that. Magnicity was wanted quality to

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Magnicity was wanted quality to be improved and that is why I be improved and that is why I support clause 34 and I thank my honourable friend for people in it.

16:04

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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honourable friend for people in it. She said that improving bus services underpins the government's plan for change. If that is the case, it strikes me as odd that the government stripped out an amendment from the other place that stated this was the purpose of the bill. I support clause 20 which calls for a review of services to villages in England. Many villages in my constituency have poor or non- existent bus routes and there are problems in many villages, which find themselves just off the main routes with residents left all but stranded, unable to get home unless they have a car.

Even if they have a service, too often, the bus finishes in the early evening. For example, the last number 16 bus leaves Bridgwater at 5:15. Not only is this a failure for those who want to travel for leisure but means many who want to use buses for commuting are failed because they cannot get home after work. The review should consider different modes of transport which is important for those in rural areas who need to travel further afield. There has been no railway station for several years because of problems with the road layout.

It is relatively simple to fix but despite running the council and Somerset, the Liberal Democrat administration is unable to fix the problem. We must ensure that authorities are obliged to act in circumstances like these and this review would help with that. Another issue I hope this review we consider is seasonal timetable. I'm fortunate to represent an area of Somerset that attracts large numbers of visitors and demand for buses understandably high. Bus operators seem to forget that local residents rely on the bus services all year round.

Seasonal buses help those in the north commuting to work or college in Weston-super-Mare. The reduced frequency of the number 20 and no Sunday service in winter months mean that fewer people can rely on it. I hope the government accepts this and better policies and from 20 new deal is rolled out. I support amendment 23 which calls for assessment of the ending of the 2 pounds bus cap which was a great achievement of the last Conservative government and I was frustrated when this government decided to scrap it.

They increase the amount or constituents had to pay by 50% and then proclaimed the triumph. It sounds like Soviet propaganda. We are supposed to welcome the new three point bus fare as a victory over capitalism, conveniently forgetting what preceded it. I wanted to be reinstated. I want to see bus services improved for Magnicity want and I believe the new clauses 22, 23, and 34 would improve the bill and I would urge the Minister to accept them.

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I refer honourable members to my

16:08

Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)

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I refer honourable members to my register of interests. Within my constituency and the neighbouring constituency and the neighbouring constituency there are two sites for Alexander Dennis, largest bus manufacturer, which employs thousands of people in Falkirk. Manufacturers will come the certainty this bill gives in Scotland. Thus manufacturing in Britain has been under -- bus manufacturing. It has been under pressure and there is the movement for zero emission buses and 2034. The Tories funded too few buses.

There was a second policy failure by the Scottish government program which saw one fifth of buses coming from Falkirk and more from China. Right. The Conservative party and the SNP did not take the sector seriously and refill -- the failure has jeopardise jobs across the country. The future of a domestic industry will need to see for green and clean network is dependent upon this procurement policies and must enable local authorities to make decisions for the area and put the passenger.

The bill is an excellent job of delivering on the priorities with a franchising process and stronger powers for local authorities, making them able to order in bulk such as the Bee Network in Manchester bolstered by buses from Falkirk. The buses are reliant on the skills and craftsmanship of manufacturing workers in Falkirk more than any other place, thanks in no small part to those from Manchester and empowered by the provisions and the government amendments contained in the bill. It only had the same foresight from a Scottish government that must deliver on commitment for the rescue deal for Alexander Dennis workers.

I also welcome the following consultation and the ban on registering non- 0-emission buses starting no earlier than 2030 and starting no earlier than 2030 and moving now quicker than the transition for manufacturers in the current market. The industry reported that it percent of the buses purchased by local authorities will come from China compared to 10% two years ago and this has been taken from manufacturers and we must address that before we are throwing ourselves to fast into this across the country.

I am sympathetic to the calls from the Dream Party in amendments 62 and 63. -- Green Party. It would risk a situation where operators would be compelled from abroad, undermining the competitiveness of a domestic industry which my community relies on. I would welcome engagement to discuss how we could align British industry to the laudable intention of the amendments of the timeline with the line with the transition in Scotland and this was addressed in amendments 46 and 48.

Accelerating further creates a risk that operators and authorities will be compelled in the long term to buy a high proportion of the fleet from abroad. It is unsustainable. They have received subsidies from elsewhere. I repeat and ask the all-party group to use the expert panel to map out a fully funded pipeline of 0-emission bus orders that can be met by world leading manufacturers and provide the certainty, especially for workers in Falkirk, prior to the ban coming in in 2030.

Falkirk has seen the in 2030. Falkirk has seen the benefit of bus networks from Labour -controlled authorities making clear commitments to partner with UK manufacturers and ordering a significant number of buses from Alexander Dennis. Considered local leadership can often make more effective policy decisions in the private sector or, I acknowledge, lazy franchisees who often look to the cheapest price rather than considering national economic interests. More authorities operating like this in tandem with the procurement framework could see us protect jobs in Falkirk in the short term but also expand the industry.

It's essential for positive outcomes and the new clause 45 and amendment seven and 16 minute provide the benefit provided by an entity that increases jobs prior to manufacturing. The benefits are seen and smoother and quieter journeys, just but also see an increase in tax revenue. It helps local authorities and gives us the opportunity to build up the bus manufacturing industry file we set our minds to the task of improving local transport. As part of a local transport, authorities, British workers.

We can deliver a transport system that is clean, affordable, reliable, and a bus manufacturing industry that can thrive for decades to come. First stop, Falkirk.

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An immediate time-limit of five minutes. I start with clause 2, table in

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I start with clause 2, table in my name and supported by over 70 colleagues in the house which calls colleagues in the house which calls for the removal of time restrictions on disabled bus passes. Disabled on disabled bus passes. Disabled people are entitled to the free bus people are entitled to the free bus

16:14

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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people are entitled to the free bus travel under the ENCTS anti-policy recognises disabled people are more likely to require support that those suffering disproportionate cost of living and that entitlement becomes void after 9pm on weekdays, depending on whether travel authorities choose can afford to extend the benefit. Disability Action Yorkshire in my constituency first piloted this last year and they have been campaigning to have the time restrictions removed and I met with charities from a number of charities and the consensus is clear that the current restrictions have huge impacts on the everyday lives of disabled people.

This amendment would require the secretary of state to remove the restrictions imposed by the ENCTS and allowed it to evil to travel for free 24 hours a day. -- Allow disabled people. Why are policies based on arbitrary timeframes? Two design the scheme for accessibility to limited when most people need it undermines the policy. My mum me in touch with her friend who every day gets in a taxi with her son to drop him off at school and spends 30 minutes waiting before she can use her disabled bus In South Yorkshire a person got in touch with me saying that he, who is registered blind, ended up being thrown off the bus at 925.

The liberal democrat councils across Yorkshire have long campaigned on this issue including John Naughton in Kirklees who raised the issue with constituent with epilepsy you suffered from these restrictions. There are 870,000 disabled bus pass holders in England making up 10% of concessionary users. The DfT points out most local authorities of some form of free travel before 09 30, the reality is only one third provide unrestricted 24 seven access. This means making early medical points or education is either unaffordable or impossible.

The DfT have responsibility to improve accessible as he was they cannot keep kicking the can to local authorities or transport authorities to adapt them to make discretionary changes. The department can enforce restrictions so they can remove it. It is time to stop passing the buck. Provision remains patchy, insecure, and vulnerable to cuts.

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He may be aware already in Sussex where I am an MP, Sussex county where I am an MP, Sussex county council have removed restrictions on times. My former Liberal Democrat times. My former Liberal Democrat colleague discussed this. Does he agree it creates a postcode lottery

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across the country where some people are fortunate and others are not? I thank my honourable friend. He

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I thank my honourable friend. He makes an excellent point and I would highlight work democrat councillors including him have done to make sure including him have done to make sure such provision is made. The postcode lottery is one which is competing unfair. Economically, the argument unfair. Economically, the argument is equally strong. We know that disabled people already face higher living costs. Removing the 930 rejection would open up work and training with opportunities before training with opportunities before the cut-off.

The cost of doing so is modest. Research shows it would cost 1% of the current annual spend on Concessionary Travel Card. We know Concessionary Travel Card. We know for each 1 pound spent on concessionary passes it is thought over 3 pounds is brought back in economic benefits. Ending the restriction will deliver more than transport access. It will promote transport access. It will promote independence, reduce isolation, improve health outcomes and encourage greater use of sustainable encourage greater use of sustainable public transport. Charities like whizzkids have shown young disabled people with womanly sport 24/7 access saying it would help to build confidence, friendship, and skills.

The amendment has support from leading disability charity slightly RNIB and cross-party support across this House. Now is the time for this Labour government to show its commitment to improving access and tearing down barriers to inequality. I know this is something the Minister and I have many interactions on, I'm sure he was not surprised to see me pushing for again today. I would urge him to consider looking at this, whether it be through this Buses Bill now further down the line in different possible measures and arrangements.

It is high time disabled people at the same freedom to travel, the same independence, the same opportunity as everyone else. That is what this amendment would deliver and I urge all members across this House to support it. Disabilities don't start at 09 30 so disabled bus passes should not either.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Could I draw attention to my Register of Interests, also as a co-chair of the British bus APPG. Today's debate is so important to the people of truth, as we have lost over two thirds of our bus routes in the last 10 years. As one of the largest towns in the UK with over largest towns in the UK with over 65,000 residents, and yet we have not seen a Sunday bus for over a not seen a Sunday bus for over a decade.

We have very few evening bus services as well which is holding back our night-time economy despite

16:20

Julia Buckley MP (Shrewsbury, Labour)

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back our night-time economy despite being a glorious tourist destination for the new bus power to franchising would be a game changer to counsel such as ours. It gives us the opportunity to introduce new bus routes that are considered to be socially necessary, such as that all-important Sunday service with additional stops to widen access to our current hospital bus route and the new health facilities coming down the track. There is a belief that the social roots could eventually alter passenger numbers and aim to become economically viable in their own rights.

To that end I wish to speak in support of the bill and in support of the amended new clause 45. It seeks to bring forward requirements on transport authorities to deliver at the minimum level of off-peak and nighttime bus services. This could transform access to employment for many of my residents in my constituency. There are only a handful of bus services after 6pm, and only one single bus at 8pm. Yet and only one single bus at 8pm. Yet we are the county town.

Host to the county's health, governance, economic, and education services. As well as being a major employer in the county of 350,000 residents. For shift workers, NHS staff, those working in hospitality, as well as those of us who enjoy hospitality, we need those buses beyond 8pm. Shropshire bus service users group has consistently campaigned on the need for evening and all-important Sunday bus services. Until now, no commercial company would take the risk. And yet, within the last year, additional bus routes added by my local authority, using government money, has led to increased passenger numbers and become embedded into our network.

To overcome the reticence of private companies to widen their route to economic risk, local authority is ready to do so. Where the legislation allows, and where passenger data indicates all- important demand and socially necessary routes. This amendment would support Shropshire Council by underpinning the need to re- establish the evening and Sunday bus services. Giving the impetus to widen those routes. To conclude, I wish to remind the Minister, as I do in every speech, that my beautiful town of Shrewsbury lost its Sunday service a decade ago under the last government.

It is in both our hands to ensure we reinstate it under this Labour government.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to speak in support of new rise to speak in support of new clause two for my honourable friend, the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough. And with cross-party Knaresborough. And with cross-party support. And I hope that cross-party support holds up into the votes. As support holds up into the votes. As we have heard, disability does not

16:23

Charlotte Cane MP (Ely and East Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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we have heard, disability does not stop at peak times. But I represent a rural constituency. And our buses are very infrequent. Having a time restriction on your bus pass is even more serious. As a member of the APPG, I enjoy a tale about mythological creatures like centaurs on the Minotaur. But unfortunately for some of my constituents, seeing a bus is almost as likely as seeing one of them. Remarkably, as we have heard from other people there are no Sunday bus services at all in most of my constituency.

We have one of the greatest cathedrals in the world, but many of my residents can't get to it for Sunday worship. Some of my villages have no buses at Some of my villages have no buses at all, and the likes of Tony and Wardlaw Hill have one bus per week for sub others have bus services every two hours. That is probably some of the best. If you restrict disabled people to using the pass not before 930, that can mean they can't catch the 09 20 bus and they have to wait for the 1120.

So effectively they can't do anything somewhere else in the morning. That can't be right. We have to remove that restriction. The current situation is not sustainable or acceptable. And for rural communities, situation is so dire that the recent risk of the number nine bus route being halted meant communities faced being unable to get to work or college. Constituents referred to this service as a lifeline for them, and they were right. You have a situation where a single bus route ended, makes the entire community a transport blackhole in 2025 and this is dreadful and not acceptable.

Had residents been properly consulted, I'm certain the proposal would have been content to be rejected. Which is why I supported my honourable friend, the Member for Horsham's new clause 32, to require consultation before any discussions regarding the alteration or withdrawal of the local bus service. I know this was not accepted but I hope the Minister will consider it. The government's decision to increase the bus fare cap hit my constituents very hard because, for many of them, they have to get more than one bus to complete their journey.

I would ask both for it to be brought back to the 2 it to be brought back to the 2 pounds, but also for there to be a cap on the journey not a cap on the buses you catch. It should not be too much to ask for basic functional and affordable transport services for rural communities. Pensioners should not have to miss medical appointments because there is only one bus per hour. Students should not have to worry about missing classes. Disabled people should not miss anything in the morning and people should not have to move from their home village for the sake of getting to work on time.

This bill is a positive one, but the government needs to do a lot more to improve transport services in rural communities like mine. It would be a start if we allowed disabled members of those communities to catch the buses at any time.

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I call Josh Brinton Bill. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of this bill but to speak in support of this bill but also in support of new clauses 46,

16:26

Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)

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also in support of new clauses 46, and 66 tabled by the member. This bill represents a step towards giving immunities greater control over their local transport networks. Colleagues across this House recognise how vital bus services are for connecting people to opportunity, people to each other, and to the services that they rely on. But sadly too frequently, because they don't have the visible impact of the train, they are undervalued. It is perhaps fitting that this comes at the time we are expecting a tube strike in London, so those of us who are based in London can understand what those of us outside London experience with an entirely dysfunctional public transport network.

I want to raise two points that I hope the Minister and colleagues will take on board. In my Calder Valley constituency, we have seen a number of services withdrawn, or reduced in frequency particularly in the upper Calder Valley. These changes have left many residents struggling particularly in areas where other transport is not available. I welcome the extension of franchising powers to all local authorities. It is long overdue and gives communities like mine in Calder Valley the chance to shape the bus networks that work for them.

I would urge the government to consider how these plans can be supported with necessary funding and guidance, so councils can act decisively to protect routes that are essential to community life. The second point I want to raise is about franchising. The support from the West Yorkshire combined authority plans to build a network that puts passengers at its heart. When it comes to cross boundary routes, those coming to Lancashire or Greater Manchester, the services won't automatically be part of the franchise.

And while this bill allows for some alternative route arrangements there is a real risk that these routes could be overlooked. We are able to county and I am keen to make sure that the needs of residents in my constituency who go to work or school elsewhere are not overlooked. I know there is a commitment to working with neighbouring authorities and I hope the government can support this collaboration. Passengers in Calder Valley don't plan their journeys around administrative boundaries transport operations, and we need to be mindful of that.

I'm confident this bill will provide a better and fairer bus network. I'm proud it is another example of this government making people's day-to-day lives better stop we must make sure that isolated communities, that cross boundaries and I look forward to working with colleagues on the

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frontbench to make sure those voices are heard. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I will be speaking to a new clause two bought forward by the honourable member for Harrogate and

16:29

Anna Sabine MP (Frome and East Somerset, Liberal Democrat)

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Knaresborough. It would extend the eligibility of disabled bus passes. The current restrictions mean disabled bus passes can only be used after 9:30 AM have real and disproportionate consequences for disabled constituents, to clearly those who rely on public transport is the only means of getting around. The many disabled people buses are lifeline. They are a gateway to essential medical appointments, employment opportunities, education, social connection. The other difference between isolation and independence. This is particularly challenging in rural areas like Frome and East Somerset where bus services are limited.

Missing the morning pass means if your bus passes are valid until 930 can mean waiting several hours of being late for work. Some members represent constituencies who straddle more than one local authority. A postcode lottery has emerged. Several residents living a few miles apart are subject to different rules. One persons are sparse might allow travel before 930 of their neighbours across the border is forced to wait. In my own constituency us in this issue first hand. I have been campaigning along with a diamond bus pass user in my constituency who commutes into Bath for work.

It falls under the West Midlands Combined Authority area. When she raised the unfairness of the 9:30 AM fiction, I wrote and pleased to say they responded positively extended the validity of the bus pass to 24 hours a day. It was a significant and meaningful win four people and one half of my constituency. The other half, those living in Somerset Council, remain restricted. They are still unable to use their passes before 930. How can I possibly be fair when all that separates them is an invisible line? We cannot talk about levelling up or dignity in public life while ignoring the daily barriers faced by disabled people.

Nor can we claim to support rural communities while expecting honourable residents to navigate the postcode lottery of restrictions that limit their independence and opportunity. Today I urge the Minister to look closely at the benefit of removing those time restrictions altogether. Let's give disabled people one fewer barrier to face in everyday lives and move towards a system that treats all with fairness, dignity, treats all with fairness, dignity,

16:32

Neil Duncan-Jordan MP (Poole, Independent)

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I rise to speak in favour of clause 21 in my name. Many members may be unaware that the fare cap does not apply to services that exclusively take children to and from school. That is why I'm calling for the extension to all school roots and any changes to be applied to school-only transport. I am grateful to those members across the House that have added their names in support of this new clause.

Across England in general, the exclusion of school roots from the fare cap has left families struggling and that cannot be read. Many families have complained to me about the unfairness of the additional financial pressure that they suffer as a result. I've raised this with the local bus provider and although they are sympathetic to the argument, they will not act unless instructed to do so by legislation. I've raised this matter with the Department and the Minister but I believe he will recall that it was too difficult to achieve what I was looking for through this bill.

I would urge him to reconsider this approach when responding with. I am sure that members would understand the obvious unfairness when I child Kherson an ordinary bus which takes them past the school and they end up on a bus where the bus fares are higher. Also, there are concerns that children cannot buy tickets in instalments that often have to fund the entire cost of the journey on a different basis and this can deter many families from using the bus as the preferred method of transport.

I see buses the same way as most policies, through the lens of making life easier for families who are working harder to get by. The bill offers steps towards building a transport network is genuinely accessible, affordable, reliable. The government must be sticking to the mission of ensuring every child has the best start in life and emission cannot be confined to a single department or a handful of policies. It must run through government departments, hardwired into how we set priorities and deliver change.

Labour values underpinning everything we do and extending the capital of 3 pounds is one way to ease the struggles that parents are facing. -- cap. This simple but impactful measure would reduce handle getting children to school and free up parents from the school run and put less pressure on those who are juggling responsibilities. It would line up with the mission of the Minister to get more people out of cars and into public transport, which is something I'm keen to support.

I recognise I'm keen to support. I recognise putting more money in people's pockets is unlikely to change but we could make a tangible cruise to day-to-day life while building a more fear and accessible transport system for everyone. I urge the Minister to consider the new clause 21 and see how we can deal with this

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unfair anomaly. I hear from people every day in

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I hear from people every day in my constituency that want to use the bus but cannot. People must be at the heart of transport policy. I the heart of transport policy. I recently heard from a woman who wanted to get to her job by bus but wanted to get to her job by bus but cannot and she must travel in the wrong direction to do so, wait, take

16:37

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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wrong direction to do so, wait, take a slow service through multiple abilities and what would be a 15- minute journey becomes one hour on the bus. It's a failure of design. The A27 needs a service. There are the stops on the road but now buses to serve them. I support the amendment so that journeys are guaranteed even when the market will not deliver and it would mean that the local authority could design services around what people need, not what is convenient.

This must be made real. Our amendment would ensure that the authority would step in and be properly funded to do so and I recently heard from a young lady in Stone Cross and a bus had sailed past her but she was within. That is lost education time. We must publish bus stop reliability and give penalties for no-shows and also we must back the headphone amendment so we can take action against antisocial passengers.

There was an 85-year-old substituent who depends on the bus to which Tesco and sometimes it never arrives at other times the driver just drives by. It's not seven. It's a gamble. People often rely on these services. We must make sure the mission is clear, drivers are trained, passengers are not left stranded. Rural villagers say the same message, gaps, long waits, not work for people's rollouts. There are also issues where commercial routes do not run. In my constituency, people are connected by rail bosses and the shuttle bus shows how small community of driven project could open up access and enrich lookalikes and these schemes run on time budgets and deliver where the market will not.

I meant nine insurers it will work not against them. Then there is the forwardthinking initiative which shows how a local authority can fill the gaps left by a local authority and it is a practical service which makes transport work for money. The new clause 8 on VAT rules would make it easier for schemes like this and allow councils to deliver real solutions. And then to Lewes itself where we have lost the bus station and is the loss of the interchange and it is busy, exposed, in the wrong place.

We must give local authorities the duties to safeguard the interchange as part of the franchising scheme. It is by the clause 5 on accessibility reports says it is explicitly safeguarded and properly looked after. The upcoming budget must unlock the much needed funding for major roads that are congested. I have raised the are congested. I have raised the A259 directly with the treatment. -- With The Primettes. It must be central. Affordability underpins all of this.

The 2 pounds cap worked well and the new clause restores that and was further with clause 9 providing free travel for the carers allowance and the new clause 2 would remove time restrictions for concession party. The bill will be judged on if it delivers at the bus stop. I hope it delivers on that.

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I rise to speak to clause 2, which covers issues of accessibility. My older, younger, accessibility. My older, younger, and disabled constituents often tell me they are left stranded and enduring painful waiting times because of unreliable services and facing distressing situations like

16:42

Dr Marie Tidball MP (Penistone and Stocksbridge, Labour)

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facing distressing situations like toiletries, missed any disappointments, arriving late at school. This is the reality faced by many constituents across my constituency. As a result of the legacy of the Conservative Party. This is unacceptable. As I mentioned at the second reading, when Reform MPs could not be bothered to show up. Where are they today? Transport systems to be the envy of the road systems to be the envy of the road but after 14 years of the Conservative North-South divide, and the broken promises, in reality, it meant that our constituency laws for 50% of bus services with -- lost 53% with a paltry 58% spent on our doorstep compared to London.

I will doorstep compared to London. I will make progress. And the SL tram link was scrapped and many could not go to work and argument is of help build asperity in the great nation, from the speciality still works to the advanced manufacturing sites, my constituents are amongst the hardest working people you will ever meet. They have the potential...

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The honourable lady and I share a huge concern for ensuring access to all areas of transport, including all areas of transport, including buses for the disabled of every kind. Would she agreed that the strike in London which is a thing they transport services is actually they transport services is actually causing greater harm to the disabled community than in any other part of

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community than in any other part of the country? I would say that the

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I would say that the accessibility plans the bill will put in place will have a dramatic improvement to the accessibility of bus networks across the country once bus networks across the country once the bill goes through Parliament. My constituents have the potential to be the beating heart of British growth with good, well-connected growth with good, well-connected public transport that unleashes their. The government has already begun to power this change for begun to power this change for transport with £1.5 billion of extra transport funding under the government and £20 million being government and £20 million being added to the original economy.

I am proud to support the reading of the bill and it will finally end the postcode lottery of bus services of the Tories, supporting every community to take back control of our bus networks. Through new powers to set bus fares and services, communities will have a proper say over the services they rely on an estate of bus routes and spheres being left to the whim of transport operators. I'd transport inequality leads to health and equality and that's why it's fantastic to follow this bill through the Lords I see that requires transport authorities to produce excess ability plans for past epochs and also driver accessibility awareness training will become mandatory for the first time.

As a result of the measures, the Mayor has been further empowered to take a look buses with franchising, securing the introduction of the tram link in my constituency is my top priority as part of this scheme and so are vital improvements to the number 21 bus in my role villages, of the worst served by pure bus routes after 15 years of Conservative inequality. I've been trying to help older and disabled visitors. Last month, I launched the beautiful new bus, a circular, and the vital number 34 extension bus connecting the local village for the first time in a ditty.

My constituents described the ditty. My constituents described the new services as thrilling to the quality of life and a lifeline for local necessities, leaving them not stranded and not dependent on others. I want to work with my Labour me are to look at additional bus routes and connect to the tram and bus. My constituency is the gateway to the Peak District and I will work with the national park team to connect local beauty spots where there are new bus routes.

My constituents are saying the benefits of this government's choices on transport and this bill will bring transport closer to home with equitable access, connectivity is the golden thread that connects urban and rural communities and keeps families and friendships close and make sure people growing up and growing old in my constituency to growing old in my constituency to

16:48

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm speaking to new clause 32 and 33 my name. There is a lot to like in this bill. If you could solve transport, you could also solve the rural productivity problem. Rural economic inactivity is almost two and 1/2 times higher than urban areas. It is directly related to transport issues. It could boost productivity to urban levels it would fix the Chancellor's budget deficit in one go. The key freedom this bill brings it is to support local authorities want to stab at a bus franchise will set up their own municipal service.

If we stand back and look at the scale of the challenge, do we think this will be enough to reverse the long-term decline in rural areas? The answer has to be no. We look at how cash- strapped and under resourced most authorities are, the problem is clear. They will be unable to take advantage of the freedom without additional support. I served on a committee considering this plan, but the measures were all small and tactical. Nobody believed on the committee that it would change the curb.

Too many local authorities have surrendered to a tacit managed decline. That has to change. Hence my amendment in clause 33 which would set out the new duty to actively promote and increase bus usage. The key paradox that must be solved is why, if public demand for bus services is so high, actual usage is always dropping. Clearly price is one issue but it is because the service has become increasingly mismatched with actual local need. West Sussex, 2021 survey found 80% residents have stopped using buses because of a lack of a suitable route or infrequency of service.

It is a huge percentage of your potential market to give away before you even start. The problem is that, especially in rural areas, what we especially in rural areas, what we have left today is a legacy service. The ghostly outline of routes and frequencies that used to exist years ago. We have fought a long defensive War of Attrition, and we are losing. Individual routes have been salami sliced destruction. This is why I have brought amendment new clause 32 which requires local authorities to consult in advance on significant service changes.

In my constituency of Horsham, the residents of Partridge Green only discovered they were losing their direct number 17 service to town when they discovered it on the new timetable. The number 63 was removed altogether in another town. With no warning. The county council state is nothing to do with them, it is the commercial operator. Ask the operator and they stated at the council. There is simply no one left at the wheel of a local bus service.

If I look at the huge public reaction, as villages have fought to save their services, but after the axe had already fallen, I could not help to wonder what might have been. Just imagine, if we could have harnessed that enthusiasm to create a service that actually met people transport needs. We have been beaten down over many years into accepting that it is impossible to fix the problem. In Switzerland, Austria, Germany, in areas that have a far lower population density than many of those across the UK, they are providing all day every hours services seven days a week.

We can do it too. If we have the will. It is good to see bus services getting attention and I appreciate that. But I hope the government does not think this will be nearly enough by itself. I urge the government to make a special study in the areas, and work out what it would take to

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genuinely reverse decline. I call Peter Prinsley. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I thank the Member for debate, and I thank the Member for North East Hertfordshire, who is temporarily not in the chamber, temporarily not in the chamber, because I speak in favour of his amendment, new clause 22. It would require the Secretary of state to conduct a review into the minimum conduct a review into the minimum bus service standards required for communities in England.

One of the things we all notice when we come to London from our rural constituencies, like mine in constituencies, like mine in Suffolk, are all buses. All the red buses all over the place was the routes that run from early in the routes that run from early in the morning until late in the evening, and I think, in no small part, to the years of excellent Labour administration Londoners have

16:53

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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administration Londoners have enjoyed. Out in Suffolk, we certainly don't have a fully integrated bus service. For a start, there simply are not enough buses. A decade of declining public funding from 2010 left the interwoven jungle of local bus maps looking decisively threadbare. From 2018 until 2024, 80% of the bus services in our county council area simply vanished. In Bury St Edmunds Stowmarket, I have been supporting residents fighting to save local bus routes. I'm sure that many members of the House have been doing exactly the House have been doing exactly the same.

We managed in very to get that 73 and the 73A roots retained, essential for getting children to school. We did the same at Mahram Park residents were in danger of being cut off. This is thanks to £8 million of funding from the million of funding from the government. 17 new or improved bus routes are rolling out just this month across Suffolk. If you are lucky enough to live on a route that survived the last 15 years, the problem is you will be hard-pressed to find a bus that goes anywhere to find a bus that goes anywhere after 5pm.

Imagine a lady from a village in my constituency who has to go to a hospital in West Suffolk appointment at 4:30 PM to look at a dodgy knee. The 332 bus runs from her village to West Sussex four times a day so she arrives with an hour to spare, she has her appointment, get out after an hour, so it is 5:30 PM, she is standing outside hospital and she can't get anywhere. So she has missed the last bus and is stuck in Bury St Edmunds.

She can't march 10 miles home because she has a dodgy knee and she has no friends. So she gets a taxi. It is £35. Our imaginary lady has no choice, she has to pay £35. Put a cap on the cost of the bus. But we need to critically examine the minimum bus service standards required across communities in England. Many have spoken of the campaign to protect rural in, which mentions that some countries like Switzerland legally mandate public transport frequencies of communities of different sizes.

I think this amendment, it will ensure that progress is made towards undoing some of the inequalities that have built up in transport and move us much closer to the unified transport

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model that we all now need. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise in support of amendments that rise in support of amendments that serve to ensure the most honourable and isolated people and activities are not cut off from employment, health services, education, leisure. health services, education, leisure. I will start with new clause two table by my honourable friend, which table by my honourable friend, which would remove the start time from the use of disabled bus passes. I must declare an interest as my own son, declare an interest as my own son, George, has one of these.

It is a crucial element in helping people with disabilities to gain independence, and for teenagers and

16:56

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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independence, and for teenagers and young adults, the needs is more cost free option than providing costly taxis. The bus pass that George and many of his classmates use does not allow us to use the pass on the way to school, in our case it is two buses and two fares, but it does allow us to use it on the return. That causes parents like me frustration, and for others it is totally unaffordable. It forces many of them use the often cancelled taxis, something that is crippling councils.

Those able to drive, blue badges are not time restricted. Why should those on a bus pass we just ruminate against? We know people with disabilities are less likely to be in employment. So anything to reduce barriers to work should be grasped by this government. When this was raised in an adjournment debate, the Minister pointed to the cost. As this affects only disabled bus passes and not the whole concessionary bus pass scheme, it does only apply to 10% of passes. So cost wise it is love.

Turning to Liberal Democrat new clauses 7, 16, and new clause 36 in the name of the Member for West Dorset relating to young people. The very first motion I put to my party conference back in 2014 related to extending discounted bus fares for young people. It was a policy that made it into our following LibDem manifesto and has remained in some form ever since. I cited a case then that applies now, of a young person who secured an apprenticeship in Bournemouth.

They were no longer eligible for a free bus pass to access the college course because, for some reason, when the age of participation was increased, the age of bus travel was not, and they had to take several buses each day to access the job. The cost of doing so took up such a large portion of their income, and the service to the village was so poor that they had to give up their apprenticeship. If we are going to make our services sustainable into the future, it needs to be a genuine choice for young people, as an alternative to buying a car or motorbike.

We are going to deal with ingestion, air quality and reach our net zero target, we need public transport to be a real option for everyone. To achieve long-term change, it typically starts with young people. It makes sense. Then people are familiar with using buses for schools, so extending discount so they have them as they started to the world of work or higher education is likely to deliver the long-term change needed. Students from the school and Academy wrote to be confused about why they were not eligible even though they were now expected to stay in school.

It feels like a clear oversight from the previous government and could be easily fixed by this government. I would also like to support my neighbouring MP, in supporting the cap extension for school services. This seems incredibly unfair and I have lobbied, been lobbied on that by families who are just about within the 3 mile window. Finally, on my village tour in the summer,, the number one issue coming up was buses. Amenities cut off from bus services cannot thrive.

I welcome amendments six, seven, 28, 29, a new clauses 415, that seek to ensure these committees are considered stop whether they be via commercial services or community minibuses, ensuring small villages are not cut off. It seems ironic that people always use the phrase " You wait for a bus and two come along. " Thousands of my constituents, just one every so often would be nice.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. My amendment 66 and new clause 46 are not intended to change government policy, nor to bind the hands of locally elected mayors or hands of locally elected mayors or transport authorities were quite the transport authorities were quite the Amendment 66 which my honourable Amendment 66 which my honourable friend talked about some time ago would require local transport authorities to set out a clear plan authorities to set out a clear plan for calculating the services socially necessary and to use that socially necessary and to use that formula when deciding how funding is allocated and it reflects the allocated and it reflects the recommendation in the Connected Communities Report of the Transport Communities Report of the Transport Select Committee.

It gives them the ability to create their own plan. ability to create their own plan. Authorities will differ from place Authorities will differ from place to place. It is a window into decision-making. For the first time, decision-making. For the first time, it allows residents to see what is being prioritised and five. It makes it clear where the cut-off time for it clear where the cut-off time for taxpayer support is and when resources are scarce and aged in power communities and also

17:03

Alex Mayer MP (Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, Labour)

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passengers are would-be passengers passengers are would-be passengers could use a bus and protected by using it more. It will stop services using it more. It will stop services from stagnating. It curbs the risk from stagnating. It curbs the risk for the loudest voices to secure the best buses with service design best buses with service design guided by numbers, not nice. I welcome the assurance of the Minister that the service guidance Minister that the service guidance would ask local authorities to publish a description of the methodology used but given he accepts the principle, I see no reason why we should not put it to the vote to future proof the the vote to future proof the concept.

Turning to clause 46 also in my name. I want to give local in my name. I want to give local leaders the tools that they need to leaders the tools that they need to do the job. I've said before that it is wrong to pigeonhole local transport authorities as he place of transport authorities as he place of sticking plaster solutions. Success sticking plaster solutions. Success comes when active local leaders embrace a network-white approach and that will mean difficult choices and that will mean difficult choices and sometimes been choosing one over another, for example, increasing the frequency of service or extending the operating hours of a bus service or adding stops at either end of the route.

Given we are about to have more obligations with regard to socially necessary services, I believe we should balance this with a duty in the legislation for the LTA to consider using some of that money to invest in existing public bus services because that is the way to get better buses. I know the Minister has suggested that the cadence will address the points but I would say it changes the initial improvement mechanism. There was an about turn for BSIP and it is legislation that should support local leaders typically call on service enhancements and the ability to drive new and innovative approaches when the goal is to drive passenger numbers.

Growing passenger numbers is ingrained in the national bus strategy and I was pleased that the Minister mentioned it in the first remarks he made. I welcome the very constructive engagement of the Minister as we discussed setting standards to increase ridership and on franchising cadence been clear but is not enough to consult with current passengers but we need would-be passengers as well because after all we need more people on buses. Everything must be about encouraging more passengers.

We will have more bus fares and better services overall. I would like to thank Tranter Palmer and also Dawson Group for National Bus Week and I wish all honourable members are very happy Catch the Bus Week. happy Catch the Bus Week.

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Two weeks ago, the number 61 bus made its final journey. Another service has been lost. People are service has been lost. People are struggling to get to work, from a to struggling to get to work, from a to B. It will make life significantly harder for many of my constituents

17:05

Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

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harder for many of my constituents getting to hospital. That is why I support the new clause to seven which guarantees buses to GP surgeries and the amendment which improves services. We have seen the withdrawal of the 461 and the 46 which was an important service for residents in my constituency. The work because they were not considered commercially viable but healthcare and education are essential services. No one should be left isolated from school, college, hospital, because bus company cannot turn a profit.

In addition to cuts to services, the Conservative - controlled county council decision to withdraw the top up to the National concessionary travel scheme has increased challenges for constituents. I am supporting clause 2 tabled by my honourable friend because disabled people must not be unfairly restricted when they travel. The removal of the companion bus pass and the restriction of free travel between 9:30am and 11 PM creates barriers for disabled people including residents in my constituency. Last month, I visited the Guide Dogs Community Team and one constituent told me she struggles to make it to medical appointments and another told me she has issues with direct sunlight which causes her eye pain.

I support her campaign to make sure they can travel independently and with travel independently and with confidence. Many visually impaired such events often require support and I've heard that losing access to the companion pass has meant many are travelling less and having to use taxis to get around. It is reducing people's quality of life. That is why you clause 2 to remove the time restrictions and clause 9 to extend travel to Kia are so important because it would help to restore independence and dignity to those who need it most.

I hope the government will ensure the socially necessary routes are protected

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because we need the bus routes now. I am pleased to see this before

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I am pleased to see this before the House and while it does good the House and while it does good work, does not go far enough deliver the change we need. One of the the change we need. One of the important additions for me is clause important additions for me is clause 12 which was brought forward by my honourable friend, the member for honourable friend, the member for Wimbledon. I visited local areas as part of my two but one theme of my part of my two but one theme of my visit was restriction on buses and I visit was restriction on buses and I spoke to two people it'll be there are not enough buses to get where

17:09

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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are not enough buses to get where they want to go. The system really serves nobody in rural areas like mine. It's not just these anecdotes. The numbers, when you look at transport in the east of England, we get less than half the spend of those in London. We accept the transport system is different in the capital and, overall, more money ends up going to the millions who need but to spend more than double on London is unfair, especially considering the advantage areas have because they are set up and the bus network running through a busy area will always be easier and cheaper than darting around country lanes and picking up at small villages a handful of times a day.

I think this could bring real benefits to bus services in Norfolk but for areas like mine, franchising has a track record in cities like Manchester and London but how do we make it work in areas that are different? It remains unknown. Clause 12 should not be prescriptive. Nobody wants to force areas into predesigned templates but we must offer a suitable support and models that do not go through totally alone and as the member friend in his inquiry, there is lots to learn from elsewhere off when it comes to running successful bus networks, especially in rural areas.

This knowledge must come in the form of crucified options and without that I worry we are setting up a postcode lottery which is visible in terms of which transport authority got lucky in terms of making a new scheme work. I spoke about the model for rural bus bespoke network, giving the most coverage as we can do as many areas as we can, trying to reach every village of the same is not visible. We have to accept that. What is visible is making sure every village is close to an accessible bus hub, by walking, a short drive, finally creating a short drive, finally creating a roulette.

-- Rural netbooks who must challenge the old notions up and also supporting the amendment brought forward by my honourable friend and I have a positive testimony about how this bus pass has helped people in my area. People across the country should be able to benefit from this equally will the Government will supportive. I make no apologies to constantly bang on about buses. It cannot be beyond us to build robust that extra bulk where they want to go when they want to go there.

I want the government to seize the opportunity and not let the bill go through as an unfunded damp squib, waiting for new powers with no hope of delivery and I hope people make this the best possible bill to drive forward the much- needed rural bus revolution.

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I am speaking on the new clause 1

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I am speaking on the new clause 1 and two and amendment nine. The government is giving more powers to government is giving more powers to local authorities and it expects councils to fund more services while

17:12

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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councils to fund more services while undermining and reducing funding at the same time and our amendment two, clause 9, requires the Secretary of State to assess the adequacy of central government funding for franchise schemes. Due to the pandemic, bus services usage massively declined in my constituency. Since then, the council, run by the Liberal Democrats, have acted to improve services, increasing the frequency of services on key routes and it's predicted that bus services in Wokingham will continue to levels from before the pandemic and this is despite being one of the lowest- funded local authorities in the country.

It is predicted it will take £47 million away from Wokingham in coming years. How can Wokingham be expected to improve services without proper support from government? I also wholeheartedly support the new clause 2, put forward by my honourable friend, who is proposing that disabled people's concessionary passes have time restrictions removed. This would be widely welcomed by many constituents. I also support the new clause 1, restoring the bus fare cap of 2 pounds a help younger and older

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constituency. There is a lot of welcome the

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There is a lot of welcome the bill and I support the overall aim but there are several important details that concern small operators details that concern small operators and community transport providers in my constituency and I'm speaking on my constituency and I'm speaking on their behalf. There are are some particular examples including David, particular examples including David, Miles, Amanda, done so much to get it moving. My fear is that the it moving. My fear is that the franchising frameworks and new trading requirements stipulated in the bill will squeeze out community operators and the social and economic costs will be severe, particularly in rural areas where mainstream operators have withdrawn.

mainstream operators have withdrawn. Section 22 community bus permit holders who provide on a not-for- holders who provide on a not-for- profit basis without the need for a vehicle-operated licence ensure the vehicle-operated licence ensure the rule service in these communities that bit otherwise be completely unserved and this bill does not unserved and this bill does not recognise this category at all and it raises a couple of forays. A it raises a couple of forays. A particular worry is that the new requirements could become unworkable

17:16

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

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for small fleets and so it does not clearly differentiate between clearly differentiate between private hire vehicles and public private hire vehicles and public service buses which may carry children as part of the route. In practice, every driver would need full safeguarding training regardless of the service they normally operate. It will be manageable for larger companies but for smaller companies with mixed or volunteer drivers, the volunteer drivers, the infrastructure to train and certify every driver at short notice does every driver at short notice does every driver at short notice does Community bus services already provide some training for their volunteers.

We are seeking proportionate requirements for drivers and proportionate support to help new operators meet new reporting and training burdens. reporting and training burdens. Another real threat for these committee operators around committee operators around franchising and tendering. Small and community operators risk being locked out of complex bidding locked out of complex bidding processes, and a lack of guaranteed inclusion in those. Competing for franchise contracts demands franchise contracts demands administrative and legal capacity well beyond what a volunteer led organisation can manage. And what is needed is a committed protection for operators within franchising model.

There is much to welcome in this bill. There is a risk of unintended consequences and I seek the Minister to look into it please. Thank you.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Over the summer recess, I visited 52 towns and villages across my towns and villages across my constituency of South Devon. An issue that came up again and again was buses, or rather the lack of them. Many communities in my rural constituency are now effectively cut off. Some have just one two buses a off. Some have just one two buses a day, and others have no service at day, and others have no service at all.

Since 2015, bus services have fallen by 40%. Under the previous Conservative government services were cut, scaled back and made were cut, scaled back and made unreliable, they are no longer usable. It is not a coincidence that

17:18

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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usable. It is not a coincidence that not a can Conservative backbencher is in the House talk about the state of our bus services today. These cuts have continued since the election last year for top and the gold bus that goes from Plymouth to Torbay and is a vital connection for lots of rural communities between larger economic centres has just been downgraded this month. This is not just about inconvenience. It is about opportunity or the lack of it. Buses connect people to jobs, education, healthcare, and each other.

Without convenient, frequent, affordable service, people of all ages are being left behind. In some areas, last bus leaves before the working day ends, standing carers, and stifling our visitor economies. I support amendments to, five, and six which requires local authorities to ensure service provision where commercial services cannot meet demand. Transport planning must reflect the reality of people's daily lives, and access to healthcare and education should not be dictated by commercial viability. Devon has the largest road network, the largest county road network in the country, but only seven commercially viable routes.

So we need more buses not fewer to encourage more regular usage. And it becomes a virtual circle. Public transport plays a crucial role in ironing out inequalities, and in a session on child poverty just this morning in this place, transport came up several times as an element that is contributing to child poverty levels. When I visit schools and colleges, I regularly hear about the prohibitive cost of public transport. Even just a few pounds per journey is a significant amount for students, and hits disadvantaged students the hardest.

That is why support new clauses 6 and 17 to offer discounts to under 25's and those in post-16 education. To ensure transport is not a barrier to educational employment. Another issue affecting residents in my constituency the postcode lottery when it comes to concessionary bus passes. In Devon and Torbay, usage is restricted like many of said until after 9:30 AM on weekdays means residents may not be able to attend early medical appointments or gets to work on time, and this government is keen to encourage disabled people back into the workplace.

So this is the thing that has to be looked at. Devon county council tells me that the Revenue Support Grant mechanism provided by central government has fallen substantially since it was introduced. To the point where the scheme is now primarily financially supported to counsel's own revenue budgets. Concessionary travel in the Devon County Council area is expected to cost nearly £8 million this financial year. While the cost of offering pre-930 travel to all passholders is estimated to be £2 million a year. I'm proud to support new clause two put forward by my honourable friend, which would remove time restrictions on the use of concessionary travel passes.

But local authorities must be properly funded to do this. In the face of all the challenges, local people are stepping up. I would like to highlight the incredible community services we have in South Devon. Bob the bus, and other buses will stop routes help to reduce loneliness and provide a vital lifeline to those who would otherwise be cut off. These services are under growing pressure. Small transport operators such as these should be prioritised, and grants from Local Transport Authorities ensuring continued to support those who rely on the services.

By support amendments nine in the name of the honourable member for Wimbledon, whose work on this bill I meant. Public transport in rural communities is the basic service. Right now, far too many parts of South Devon, tippy does not exist. Why support the many positive measures in this bill, we must go further to fully address the needs of rural areas and ensure no community is cut off. Decent public transport alleviates poverty. It reduces the amount of cars on the road. It enables the young, the elderly, those who can't drive or afford a car, to participate fully in the economic and social communities.

It requires significant investment but the gains to be had are exponential. I would like to say to the Minister, the previous government wasted £2.5 billion on the cancelled leg of HS2. It is almost enough to fund the village to every village, every hour of every day across England. Imagine the transformational power of that, if the right choices were made.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my fellow members and share the Public Bill Committee for the work they did. I felt like this the work they did. I felt like this the work they did. I felt like this was very constructive, and the different opposition members on the committee. It followed constructive amendments made and agreed on the other place including on villages other place including on villages and other things. I was sad to see so many good ideas defeated during so many good ideas defeated during committee.

This issue crosses party boundaries and should be about boundaries and should be about practicalities not party politics. On road danger, I'm pleased to have supported and tabled new clauses 41, supported and tabled new clauses 41, 42, 43 from members of the RMT union, on improving safety through driver support and well-being. These measures are all necessary to

17:23

Siân Berry MP (Brighton Pavilion, Green Party)

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measures are all necessary to achieve vision 04 road danger from buses. I am full of support for new clause two and other amendments looking at removing restrictions on concessionary bus passes. Having these time restrictions is a major disincentive to work and the government cannot keep dodging this contradiction in its stated policies. It must act to enable disabled people and enact real equality. Young people have had some good attention from the audible member for Poole and Liberal Democrat members.

I myself have tabled new clause 44 which simply enacts the same policy already in place for Scotland, giving free bus travel to anyone under the age of 22. I want mainly to advocate for clean air, as the current sponsor of the Clean Air (Human Rights) Bill, and for toilet access to be taken seriously by government in relation to buses. My amendments 62 and 64 help fix these policy gaps. The current Bill clauses on zero emission buses seek to block the highest ambition, setting an earliest date for the procurement of zero emission buses, not until 2030.

This is a really long time to still be buying dirty diesel power buses. It is extremely poor. Dirty air is a killer, and when, in certain streets and hotspots, often where the least advantaged live, and clean buses can make a real difference. And it is in the gift of public authorities to deal with. The mayor and transport for London began procuring zero emission buses as long ago as 2021. With some London roots very long indeed, this is something that can be work for much sooner with the right help and investment to help build the infrastructure and fill these good green jobs, as implied by the comments of the honourable member for Falkirk.

I have yet to hear good reasons for ministers why this clause is so tragically un- enterprising. In terms of putting access to toilets, this is the ideal time for me to talk about this topic, I apologise to any other members, in terms of putting access to toilets to local transport plans for bus infrastructure and facilities. This is another vital issue of equality of access. As Age UK said this January, it is lifting the lid report, and for older people, those with health conditions and many others.

The availability of public toilets can determine whether they feel able to leave their homes. This is basic equality. My green colleagues on the London Assembly are famously very persuasive, and working with groups like Age UK, have worked and have targets on the Tube network to be no more than 20 minutes of travel time away. The Minister talked earlier about creating more accessible stopping places. This kind of standard setting for access to essential toilet facilities on bus routes, that enable mobility, is so achievable.

I hope ministers will listen and take this forward in future work.

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With leave of the House I call the Shadow Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I will make some final comments on this. We have had an interesting

17:26

Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)

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this. We have had an interesting debate. We have had about 25 or 30 speakers. There have been some themes have developed from this. One of which is the number of smokers that was -- the number of speakers that are spoken on disabled access and around floating bus stops and shared border bus stops. We have had other speeches focusing on concessionary travel, and during rush-hour and in relation to companion passes. Another area has been a number of local descriptions of bus needs in members constituencies focusing on rural need.

I want to pick out two or three speeches. I will start with the honourable member for Bridgwater who spoke in support of Amendment 23, 29, and new clause 34. He highlighted a concerning failure by his Liberal Democrat county council to fix the bus stop at Bridgwater station. A problem that has been outstanding out for three years and counting. If we want to improve bus services, we know whether the Democrats can start. I also want to commend the contribution from the right honourable member for New Forest East.

He put his name and championed new clause 47, asking for companion passes to form part of the concessionary travel arrangement. I will mention the contribution from the Liberal Democrat spokesman, you're a member for Wimbledon. Because he did have a tiny pop of the Conservatives, particularly in relation to new clause 10. This is the clause, Madam Deputy Speaker, you may remember, you may not remember, relating to antisocial behaviour. I think it does require a bit of explanation because it was right of him to highlight that the position of the opposition has changed on this.

I will explain why. In committee will be discussed new clause 10, your member will recall, if it doesn't I was referred to Hansard, that I was very sympathetic to the objective of his amendment, his new clause. But I took I now accept a rather narrow drafting objection to it which is, the new clause at the description to a nonexhaustive list. It is therefore technically not required because the definition was already employed which is one of nuisance. And since antisocial behaviour is by definition a nuisance, it was, the lawyer coming out of me, slightly

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otiose. Does the Shadow Minister accept I

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Does the Shadow Minister accept I made that point, and in committee, and does he accept that when I and does he accept that when I raised the issue in PMQs, your benches cheered almost unanimously on this point?

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on this point? I stand corrected in the sense that I have listened to the honourable member. On reflection, I honourable member. On reflection, I do accept that I was perhaps taking too legalistic a point. If by adding too legalistic a point. If by adding sustained antisocial auditory disturbance to the definition of disturbance to the definition of nuisance we can make what is an implied power and express one, and implied power and express one, and I'm happy to support it.

As for the I'm happy to support it. As for the Speak aback he mentions how his Speak aback he mentions how his party came in on the amendment on audible noises. One thing that has not changed is on my amendment to not changed is on my amendment to the extension of those buses, given the argument is economic his party wants disabled people to get to work, will see supported tonight? Speak surely that is an intervention on jeering and I'm not at liberty to make recommendations at the dispatch box and that means I will not be voting for something that writes a blank cheque for the future because we are trying to be economically responsible on this side of the House.

Without amendment, the bill is a missed opportunity in relation to bus stop design and disability access and in relation to antisocial behaviour on buses, bringing them in line with the protections which are enjoyed by rail passengers. And it is a missed opportunity not to focus on passengers as they primary object of all actions undertaken, in particular in relation to rural areas. It is not just a missed opportunity but also, in the current drafting, actually damaging for the future prospects in the country because it risks exposing local transport authorities to potential bankruptcy without support from the Secretary of State.

In the first instance, by giving them oversight of their plan and particularly small local transport authorities have of a state of the proposed plan for franchising and giving it the all clear. Secondly, if they set up a franchise system and it fails to provide over a period, the Secretary of State must surely be able to step in and provide the assurances of interest in passengers as opposed to the organisation. Those have been raised, those two issues have been raised by myself consistently throughout the committee stage and earlier this evening.

They are very significant concerns, genuine concerns which prevent us from supporting this bill in the current

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form. I thank him for the way he has

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I thank him for the way he has approached this. Local authorities approached this. Local authorities across England are losing contracts every single day and so what is every single day and so what is different about this issue? What is

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the particular issue here? I'm sorry he was not in place throughout the debate because he throughout the debate because he would have heard that a franchise is not a normal contract and with the not a normal contract and with the standard operator, that is what you do, you let the contract and the do, you let the contract and the risk lies with the provider. The risk lies with the provider. The problem is the commercial risk is translated to the taxpayer and there are no longer letting the commercial are no longer letting the commercial contract but buying in services for a price and the risk lies with the a price and the risk lies with the taxpayer and that is the crucial difference and I'm glad the honourable member put his finger on honourable member put his finger on because I am as what is as he is about this.

My final comment is just about this. My final comment is just to mention the comments of the honourable member for Brighton Pavilion because we do not share agreement on many issues but I agree that she said there were a lot of amendments tabled by certainly three opposition parties but none from Reform because they would not know a Transport policy if it came up and slapped him on the face. They came up with something and so that the Conservatives, good idea, a good idea.

They have all been rejected by the government until now. I will sit down and I look forward to the Minister's response and his concession on these good ideas. concession on these good ideas.

17:35

Simon Lightwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Wakefield and Rothwell, Labour )

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17:54

Division

18:48

Points of Order

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were 69 for the ayes and 300... Can I thank the Teller for that point of order. And for correcting point of order. And for correcting the record. I hereby direct the clerks to correct the numbers and clerks to correct the numbers and confirm that the ayes were 69 and confirm that the ayes were 69 and the noes were 300. Consideration completed. Third reading.

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completed. Third reading. Now.

18:48

heidi Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)

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Ministered to move third reading. I beg to move that this bill be

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I beg to move that this bill be now read for 1/3 time. This government believes reliable, government believes reliable, affordable and accessible transport isn't simply a luxury to be enjoyed by some. It should be everyone's right, to access essential services, to travel to work or school, to fulfil aspirations and expand horizons. Today we take a step closer to that vision. Because after 40 years of failed deregulation, after seeing services cut, routes axed and fares rise, we are finally taking our Lifeline bus services off of life support.

This vital legislation ushers in the biggest change to our buses in a generation. It means improved services for passengers and socially necessary routes protected. Greener buses will be rolled out faster. Accessibility and safety standards will be raised across the board. And buses will be integrated across local transport, so it's easier and simpler to get around. But ultimately this bill is about where power lies. It transfers control away from private interests and towards the public good. Away from central government and towards the local leaders who know the area's best.

They and they alone will choose how best to meet local transport needs, be it through franchising, enhanced partnerships, or locally owned bus companies. And my message to the public is simple, buses will get better. I want to thank honourable members for the scrutiny and support they have provided throughout the Bill's passage. I would specifically like to recognise the members opposite, including the Member for Broadland and Fakenham and them for Wimbledon holding the government to account and for their questioning.

He has been a respect like constructive process which I must say has been refreshing. Many of the measures in this bill built on the national bus strategy, which I know the right honourable member for Basildon and Billericay played a role in implementing, particularly in greater Manchester. I would also like to thank my honourable friend the honourable member for Wakefield and Rothwell. His excellent work and dedication in steering this bill through the House. I know the genesis of this bill stretches back a long time, and so I would also like to acknowledge the passion and foresight of my predecessor the right honourable member the Sheffield Heeley in making the case for this legislation and advocacy for a better bus network for all.

Finally, I'm grateful to all the Parliamentary staff, including the clerks and chairs as well as to my officials who have worked at pace to help deliver this landmark legislation. Buses connect us to the things that matter most. Yet for too long they've been a symbol of decline. That changes now. After committing substantial funding for bus services, we are now getting on with fundamental reform. Fixing the faults of the industry, transferring power to the local level and putting passengers and local communities first.

Change is coming to our buses, and I commend this bill to the House.

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The question is that the Bill be now read a third time.

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now read a third time. Thank you. What bus passengers

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Thank you. What bus passengers really want is reliable, affordable and cheap bus travel on a growing network. That's was guaranteed under

18:52

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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the last Conservative government's 2 pounds fare, a commitment in our manifesto and one that works. They may cheer on the opposition benches, but the National Audit Office said this, they might want to listen. Praising the DfT committed the DfT's 2 pounds bus fare Achieved its aim to make bus journeys more affordable for low income households and increased bus usage. That's a policy abandoned by Labour posted up for by the Conservatives. Yet this Labour government scrapped it. I know the keep on pretending that a 50% increase to 3 pounds is actually beneficial to taxpayers.

There is a zero indication of how this bill will improve passenger numbers or ensure rural coverage. Indeed this bill creates an even more fragmented and inconsistent service across the country. Labour scrapped the national fare, failed to replace it properly and now expects local councils to pick up the bill without any extra funding. Last Conservative government delivered reinvestment the passengers, backing bus services and improvements in the West Midlands, Greater Manchester with £1 billion, although I was there with mayor and you think it was all down to him, but I'm sure your ministers are finding, dealing with Andy as interesting as I did, and in West Yorkshire also delivering those bus service improvement plans, and working with local authorities to get real results.

This bill is the opposite. Drowning councils in process, driving up costs and threatening rural connectivity whilst ignoring what passengers really need. Without significant subsidies, councils will naturally be prioritising city and towns over villages, leaving our rural communities even further behind. Just as we've seen in our courts, in our prisons, this government risks creating yet another two-tier system. This time the buses where city regions are supported and everyone else is simply forgotten. How else to explain focusing, forcing operators towards zero emission costs registration without any plans to make that transition? After all the hammering committees with attacks on family farms, this government is going to do so exactly the same all over again with reduced services because it's not providing the extra funding.

To make matters worse, has undermined the very infrastructure buses rely on, cutting rates funding by 30% in real terms, and delaying or cancelling critical projects. You cannot promise better bus services while cutting the very roads that they and all other users depend on. And in tearing up the safeguards around the Secretary of State's oversight, ministers are giving councils free rein to set up municipal bus companies without ministerial signoff and all competitive tendering. Let me be absolutely clear, if these companies fail, the responsibility lies squarely with the Secretary of State and taxpayers left to pick up the bill.

More for, it's completely ignored the shortage of bus and coach drivers across our country. We've called time and again for 18, 19, 20 rods to be allowed to drive buses beyond 50 km a day. 15 months ago, the consultation ended. 14 months under this government. Yet 14 months under this government. Yet last week I asked the WP Q and they said the governor still considering its response to this consultation. It's a straightforward and commonsense change that would help tackle driver shortages, boost businesses and tourism and get more buses back on our roads.

The Prime Minister and his Chancellor have told this has repeatedly that they are to pursue growth by any means necessary, yet when an opportunity to present itself as this is done, they do not seem to want to move at all. In this week of hugely damaging and disruptive strikes nominations capital, we are seeing further strikes across the country due in the weeks, next week as well. The government is putting ideology ahead of delivery. Citing with unions over passengers with a bill that fails bus users, fails rural communities and fails to guarantee value for taxpayers.

That's why we on these benches are voting against this bill tonight and I urge all honourable members to do the same.

18:56

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson. bill after decades of failure with the deregulation also by the Tories, this is clearly a move in the right direction. It's not ambitious enough, and I regret deeply your failure to reinstate the 2 pounds bus fare, and to remove the planets on disabled concessionary travel for

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address... The on which it has repeatedly used the word you and your throughout this afternoon's

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proceedings. Please do better. And the government's failure to

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And the government's failure to address the awful scourge of headphone dodgers. But most fundamentally, the bill will not fundamentally, the bill will not work unless it's properly funded. And at the moment, it's not, and you cannot hide... The government cannot cannot hide... The government cannot hide behind localism when it needs proper funding. But we will support

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this bill. The question is that the bill be

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The question is that the bill be now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of

18:57

Division

are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Division! Clear The The question The question is The question is that The question is that the The question is that the bill The question is that the bill be The question is that the bill be now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The tellers for the ayes are Stephen Morgan and Jade Botterill. The tellers for the noes, Lock the Lock the doors.

This This order, This order, order.

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The ayes to the right, 362, The

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The ayes to the right, 362, The

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The ayes to the right, 362, The noes to the left, 87. The ayes have noes to the left, 87. The ayes have Motion number three on data protection, minister to move.

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protection, minister to move. I beg to move. The question is as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye" Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes

19:10

Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)

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"No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Edition, Robbie Moore. have it. Edition, Robbie Moore.

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I riser to? I riser to present a petition to stop the Keighley petition to stop the Keighley Picture House from closing. There was deep concern the Picture House Cinema, a key landmark, would close, Cinema, a key landmark, would close, as it was advertised for a redevelopment opportunity. Residents deeply value their cultural deeply value their cultural deeply value their cultural heritage. Open since 1913, this position has received over 5421 position has received over 5421 signatures, which I launched to make the deep feeling clear to Bradford Council that selling it was not an Council that selling it was not an option.

Losing the picture house would be another blow to our High would be another blow to our High Street, one that recently cannot afford. The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons request that the House of Commons urge the government to work constructively with Bradford Council and the town council, to guarantee the future of Keighley Picture the future of Keighley Picture House, as a cinema and cultural House, as a cinema and cultural venue for generations to come, and the petitioners remain et cetera.

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Petition, Keighley Picture House. I beg to move that this House do

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now adjourn. The question is that this House

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do now adjourn. Good evening, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am grateful. The adjournment debate this evening is

19:12

David Simmonds MP (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Conservative)

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adjournment debate this evening is on the future of the education unit at the Mount Vernon Hospital full- time grateful, that this member has a great deal of local knowledge, having grown up in it. And also the Secretary of State foreign number of conversations, but the loss of a unit like this is something that runs contrary to the 10 year plan that has been set out before this House and which has an impact which is much, much broader than that on provision solely within the Hillingdon Hospitals Trust, which is the overarching NHS body for both the Mount Vernon Hospital and also the main Hillingdon Hospital site further south.

And that is reflected in more than 20,000 people who have signed my petition expressing their concern about the loss of this service. And calling for an opportunity to think again. And I would like to place on record my thanks to the members of Parliament for a number of those neighbouring constituencies who supported me in bringing this petition this evening. And who supported their local residents and I know the member who is here has maintained the long tradition of Hillingdon, working together on issues that affect the constituency.

And my neighbours, in Hertsmere, in South West Hertfordshire, in South Buckinghamshire, in Harrow West, have all expressed a similar view. They all understand the impact this closure would have on their constituents. Of course.

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Madam Deputy Speaker, can I commend the honourable gentleman. I spoke to him beforehand, your support for what the honourable gentleman has put forward goes much further than what it is a minute we further than what it is a minute we recently lost in a small town urgent recently lost in a small town urgent care unit. So, I would urge caution as the honourable gentleman is as the honourable gentleman is referring to and I am informed that teenagers have been left in a waiting room for up to 15 hours.

Does the honourable gentleman not Does the honourable gentleman not agree that this does not leave was waiting's times as a standard of care, the very issue the honourable gentleman is referring to

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gentleman is referring to I am grateful to the honourable gentleman, what he described as very gentleman, what he described as very similar, to what members across the wider area and many people who have been in touch with me directly been in touch with me directly experience. We know that units, this experience. We know that units, this one particular, are particularly one particular, are particularly valued by those people for whom A&E is not always the best to seek is not always the best to seek treatment.

Many of the local schools have been in touch to say if there was an injury in the school day. This is the ideal place to see a child get the treatment they need. And for older residents, who particularly if they are not in the best of health, are not may be up to the journey to the nearest A&E department, many of whom are under significant pressure. At the unit is the place to be. And on the Secretary of State ministers have very positively responded to the pleas of a number of members across the House.

Who asked as part of a 10 year plan to see the prospect of a minor injuries unit, opening to serve their constituency. So, to see one loss that is already providing good service seems, to me, a great shame. The Minister will know that the Hillingdon Hospitals Trust has been financially challenged for many, many years. Indeed, during my days as a non-executive director of the Hillington Primary Care Trust, in the days of the last Labour government, the overspend was significant and a challenge which has persisted.

And the governments and all parties, despite numerous initiatives to try and solve it, to this day. It is indicative of the poor state of the main hospital building, which, for the record, I should be clear, my wife is a doctor in. But that is pending a rebuild, another minister and the government have accepted the program of works set in place previously. Granted planning permission by the local authority. And announced in the last government to provide a new district We need to recognise, and I'm sure the Minster will know because of that local knowledge, that as well as the normal district hospital general population which Ellington serves, it also serves Heathrow airport with a very large population of transitory people coming through, many of whom are taken ill, and adding to the pressure of that A&E, and in addition the largest number of asylum seekers per capita of any local authority in the country.

And in addition to that, a significant number of people who are in immigration detention pending deportation. So this is not a hospital which is serving the normal day-to-day needs of the population area. It has particular and unique pressures, and a minor injuries unit is beginning to take some of that

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pressure off for the benefit of local residents. I thank my neighbour for giving way on the point. I think the perfidy describes a very difficult perfidy describes a very difficult situation in Hillingdon. That has been inherited by the trust and the been inherited by the trust and the government, hotels opened under the Conservatives, and I'm pleased the government are committed now to close hotels across the country and to deal with this issue and is to deal with this issue and is reviewing the fair funding of local authorities is much overdue in Hillingdon.

He also describes the situation in hospital of the need for the rebuild after 14 years with no funding. Again I'm pleased that the Minister in front of us who the Minister in front of us who knows Hillingdon very well. I'm sure that didn't influence the decision, that didn't influence the decision, finally provided the one point, almost £1.4 billion the hospital needs. Would he not agree with me needs. Would he not agree with me that those positive step forwards, I that those positive step forwards, I agree that the Mount Vernon decision is concerning.

I raise those concerns to the trust executive leadership myself. I would he not agree that there are positive steps forwards on those long-term issues? forwards on those long-term issues? And that we need to continue to work together to improve neighbourhood healthcare?

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healthcare? I'm grateful to the fact my constituency neighbour is here. I'm sure had he perhaps the same degree of history in Hillingdon as the Member for Hayes & Harlington and I do, we recall that hotel -- hotels was set up as part of its disposal program, set up in the early thousands by Andy Burnham, now the Mayor of Greater Manchester, I dunno that's placed ongoing pressure on the local area. The numbers of people who are put into the initial accommodation who are now stuck locally is very very large.

And I'm sure he shares my concern and the reason announcements of local authority funding, Hillingdon remains broadly the same as always has done. But I do welcome his commitment, a commitment to carry on the work that was started under the previous government the rebuild of Hillingdon Hospital. I know the Member for Hayes & Harlington will be very well because sure his consisting in -- his constituents are aware, the sewage electronics for the new build have been a significant challenge to residents in accessing the hospital, and indeed the challenges that will come during the rebuilding process of the hospital on what is currently its existing car park.

It is a further argument for why a minor injuries unit is important in this period because it creates that bit of additional capacity that means instead of potentially challenging times that A&E and the difficult logistical challenge of accessing a hospital whose car park already constrained will be the building site training hospital. All of those are additional reasons why a minor injuries unit remains important. It's noteworthy in this context that the move away from an open access unit to appointment only, which took place following COVID has significantly reduced footfall at the Mount Vernon unit, and that therefore has driven up the cost per visit compared to the previous position.

And this is part of a pattern I know in the other Harrow part of my constituency with the medical centre, we've also seen the loss of walking facility has led to more patients attending the local A&E, to longer waits and ultimately increased cost to the NHS because A&E attendances are more expensive than a nurse led walk-in service is available at Mount Vernon. Swinging the Minster knows all this personally. She knows how much the local community not just in Hillingdon or rice at North but across north-west London into neighbouring Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire how much value they place on that service.

And how often Members of Parliament representing places like Watford, the Harrow constituencies have been in touch to share their concerns about the delays and the challenges that are faced by patients attending A&E's in Watford and Hillingdon or Norfolk Park that are the main destinations for alternative treatment.

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Can congratulate my honourable friend for this adjournment debate? He's highlighted issues in his constituency and is lucky enough that Hillingdon Hospital is going to that Hillingdon Hospital is going to be refurbished but with the delays in Watford general refurbishment in Watford general refurbishment when it won't be around until 2030 at the earliest, does he agree with at the earliest, does he agree with me that Mount Vernon is all the more critical for the surrounding areas and the capacity provides?

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and the capacity provides? I'm very grateful to another of my constituency neighbours for the support that he has lent on behalf of his constituents to this of his constituents to this campaign. And we know in a busy capital city where there are all capital city where there are all kinds of challenges, not just a rising from the airport but also from our transport links, that the pressure on some of those A&E's is higher than the NHS funding formula higher than the NHS funding formula has traditionally recognised.

And that's why things like minor injuries units have come into being injuries units have come into being over the years to make sure that provision is there. And to know that those constituency neighbours, constituents not just attend Mount Vernon to go to the minor injuries unit. It's also home to the cancer centre, to a hospice, to a private centre, to a hospice, to a private hospital to a general practitioners, a whole variety of different NHS and private healthcare services as well as research and scanning and nurses accommodation as well.

And all of these things are incredibly important to the local community. So my ask of the Minister is straightforward. The first is that acknowledging, she understands as well as we all do that the NHS is always under financial pressure. Regardless of who it is that is in government. And she understands personally how much this unit at Mount Vernon Hospital matters to local people, across an area that is much much wider than that served solely by the Hillingdon hospital trusts.

She also understands that the vision of the 10 Year Plan involves a great emphasis of out- of-hospital care, and the commitment started under the previous government and now under construction other pinnacle hospital site in my constituency of an example of the willingness of both this government and the previous one to invest in those types of services. And therefore it seems perverse to be closing down one such service that is already successfully in operation and both valued but also with the potential to further reduce the cost pressures and the service pressures on our local NHS.

So what I'm asking the Minister to do is simply to intervene with the trust, to ask officials to engage with them about that wider impact that the closure will have beyond the Hillingdon Hospital trust alone. We know that from their perspective, moving those staff and the budget onto the main hospital site will improve the look of their bottom line, but in the long-term it will increase the costs to the NHS for those patients and will reduce the quality of the service that they receive.

We should consider therefore encouraging trust to move back towards an open access model? Has used to operate at this site, which would further reduce the number of the NHS costly and to patients stressful and time- consuming A&E visits? And which confirmed the House that she is noting the concerns that have been expressed so profoundly and so cross party? Those MPs from Beaconsfield, South West Hertfordshire, East Harrow, Hayes & Harlington, some of whom have taken the time even during a tube strike to be here for this debate to demonstrate the importance that they place upon it.

There are some voices that have said that more than 20,000 local people signing this petition were expressing faux outrage. Those 20,000 people value the service, many of them including myself have used over the years. We know the benefit that it brings. We know that it is in accordance with this government's own vision and strategy for the NHS. And we know that used properly, can reduce the cost to the NHS and improve the quality of service, not just for my constituents but for all of our constituents.

So please Will the Minister intervene, ask the trust to think again, and find a way to secure its valued service for the future for local residents.

19:26

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:44

Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology

19:44

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:44

Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology

19:44

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:44

Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology

19:44

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:44

Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology

House House of House of Commons House of Commons - House of Commons - 10 House of Commons - 10 September

20:06

20:12

Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology

20:12

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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This debate has concluded

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