Lords Chamber

Wednesday 9th July 2025

(began 6 hours, 52 minutes ago)

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15:09
None Portrait Introduction of Lieutenant General Edward Grant Martin Davis, CB, CBE, KStJ
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As As we As we have As we have done

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As we have done previously, As we have done previously, I would like to pay tribute to the retiring Black Rod. Sarah Clark took retiring Black Rod. Sarah Clark took up as Black Rod in February 2018, up as Black Rod in February 2018, up as Black Rod in February 2018, joining us from Wimbledon. Who would have thought Wimbledon would have have thought Wimbledon would have been good training for her work here? Could be said she went from here? Could be said she went from tennis to ping-pong in the House of tennis to ping-pong in the House of Lords.

When the office of Black Rod Lords. When the office of Black Rod was created, a decree stated the post should be held by an gentleman post should be held by an gentleman famous in arms and blood, a reference to the post-holder being a reference to the post-holder being a man who had served in the military. Sarah Clark makes history -- made history as the first lady are sure history as the first lady are sure of Black Rod. -- usher.

As her first rehearsal, she marched onto the Commons and walked straight in. They forgot to slam the door. At the second attempt, they remembered to slam the door but the timing wasn't quite right and she was a head away from a broken nose. The result was a stone email from the Heritage Team with something along the lines of " Do not lock the door". She served with a duty, dedication, care and professionalism.

In just 7.5 years, she has led to hundred 52 introductions to Your Lordships' House, 11 state openings and other events. All of us know the huge logistical arrangements required behind the scenes. They are organised by Black Rod to ensure a seamless visit. Sarah has overseen five state visits to this palace, ensuring that visiting dignitaries enjoy the experience. Even on her final day of post, she was here to welcome President McCrone. But it was service leadership and can professionalism following the death of the late Queen Elizabeth II she works tirelessly literally round the works tirelessly literally round the clock to ensure the final journey of her Majesty reflected the mood in respect of the nation.

Hundreds of thousand members of the public walked through Westminster Hall to pay their final respects and hundreds of millions watched on TV from all over the world. This would not have been possible without the fantastic support of the house staff, and particularly the young staff, and particularly the young man Asher -- yeoman usher. It's impossible to refer to that time without mentioning the doorkeeper's, many of whom became familiar faces when the event became live streamed on TV and made for emotional viewing.

Service leadership and commitment to that time was the embodiment of the truly excellent public servant that she is. We have enjoyed our time with her. I've spoken of her professionalism, her dedication and leadership. But we also remember her friendship and her sense of fun. After Sarah and I spoke about her departure last week, and I should confess, it was over a and I should confess, it was over a gin and tonic, she said to me, overcoat it has been the greatest honour to service Black Rod.

I deeply appreciated the huge support of the House and members have given me in over 7.5 extraordinary years with so many extraordinary moments. I leave knowing I did my best to deliver my duties and certainly had an enjoyable time here. I could not have asked for more." And neither could become my Lords. Whilst we might fondly imagine Sarah will be spending time at home with her partner Catherine and her two dogs, Madge and Wilma come I'm sure she will remember the role with the same dedication that we have seen.

I warmly welcome our new Black Rod, a Davies, to Your Lordships' House. -- Ed Davis. He brings a wealth of experience. Were confident his previous diplomatic experience will serve him well in juggling the demands of this role and we look

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forward to working with him. Hear! It's a pleasure on behalf of

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It's a pleasure on behalf of these benches to follow the Noble Baronesses The Lord Privy Seal who Baronesses The Lord Privy Seal who spoke beautifully for us all as our leader and her generous tribute to our outgoing Black Rod, Sarah Clark. our outgoing Black Rod, Sarah Clark. I rather like the joke. I wish I had thought of it myself. By curious thought of it myself. By curious coincidence, I found myself sitting last night in the evening sun last night in the evening sun watching Carlos Alcaraz.

I thought who in their right mind would who in their right mind would exchange that glorious theatre of Wimbledon for a dingy 19th-century building riddled with mice and building riddled with mice and moths. Who would swap the centre court 's a giant retractable roof, costing just 70 billion -- million... But we all know who did make that choice and that was Sarah Clark. And how grateful we are that she did. Despite the fact she is well and truly in her right mind.

She brought with her a wealth for -- wealth of logistic and managerial experience when she accepted our offer and the great late Queen confirmed that recommendation. She may not have been the conventional choice, as the Leader of the House reminded us, but she was Sarah has delivered on everything asked of her and immeasurably more. No one ever asked her to do. She hasn't done it with calm authority and sometimes wicked sense of humour. Her contribution to the life and functioning of this House was
15:16
None Portrait Tributes to Sarah Davina Clarke CVO, OBE
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truly exceptional. As the leader told us she oversaw an extraordinary array of experiences during her time as a Black Rod. My predecessor, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park, particularly remembers that unique and challenging period, during the Covid pandemic. When she and Sarah attended the House every day. Sarah armed with her measuring stick to keep us all two metres apart. The organisation of everything was as swift as it was impeccable. And I remember, on 21 April 2020 becoming the first Minister ever to answer a question virtually, rather than at the Dispatch Box.

I refreshed my memory last night My Lords and heavens the very first ever virtual question asked was about the size of our House and whether new life peerages should be on a two-out, one in basis. While looking at Order Paper today, see the important amendment, Lord Burns proposing a two-out one in system of appointments. Sometimes I wonder in this House, some things never change. Of course they do and often in unexpected and unforeseen ways. And always in one way historically.

Sarah was at the heart of things, managing subtle change and maintaining continuity. As a noble Lords will be aware, I had the honour, as a leader, working alongside her, during some of the most significant and sensitive occasions in recent history. When the eyes of the country and indeed the world, as the leader said were focused on events here in Parliament. Not least lying in state and state funeral for Her late Majesty The Queen Sarah's leadership then was in every sense in suppressive and indispensable.

In truth I can say and not a single foot was put wrong. As those extraordinary silent, never ending, never to be forgotten cues filed past and paid their respects to the Queen. A moment of solemn, national reflection, quite impeccably staged. Sarah's work at that time showed how we can in almost a must act with unity and dignity, in difficult times. Once again, as the leader said, done with the utmost calmness and good humour. If I may add, a final personal note, I will never forget her own personal encouragement and kindness to me, in what were often difficult and challenging duties as a very new leader, on behalf of your Lordships' , we warmly thanked her for her trailblazing service, her lasting contributions and for her personal warmth, good humour and unfailing attention to detail and duty.

We wish her all the very best in her future role and for our part, we will miss her cruising the West front corridor, looking for the best acts from the Which? Offices. Always there for a flapjack, but never in a flat. We thank you Sarah, it is unbelievably hard act to follow. At the same time we look forward with confidence to welcoming a left general general Ed Davis as our new Black Rod, sure in the knowledge that he will build on the strong and sure foundation that Sarah played.



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Lieutenant General Ed Davies. When Sarah first came to be interviewed. I think the majority of you, of whom I was one, was probably you, of whom I was one, was probably one of curiosity. At no great expectation. How could someone who expectation. How could someone who was a non-military and heaven forbid, a woman and with no public forbid, a woman and with no public sector background possibly compete with her more traditional competitor with her more traditional competitor candidates.

The interview however was a revelation. She was calm, she was a revelation. She was calm, she was assured, she was thoughtful and was assured, she was thoughtful and she was humorous. We thought that she was the best candidate, but we were so surprised at our own conclusion that we invited her back for a second interview, just in case for a second interview, just in case we missed something the first time round. But the second interview round. But the second interview merely confirmed the first.

And those characteristics, which we saw in Sarah when she first appeared at in Sarah when she first appeared at the interview, she brought to the job from day one. She immediately job from day one. She immediately established Serena authority and a sensible, no-nonsense approach, which meant that she was quickly respected by the House as a whole. The respect which only grew, as she managed the many, many quick changes which are required during Covid. And with such great aplomb, the great Royal event that occurred during her watch.

Personally, I found her simply a pleasure to work with. She is, I believe, taking a bit of a break before taking on other duties. I wish her well for the break and for her future career, whatever it might be. And in doing so, I welcome might be. And in doing so, I welcome her successor, has a hard act to follow, but I'm sure he will do it

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extremely well. I'm going to do the other way round. On behalf of these benches, can I add are warm welcome to lieutenant general Ed Davies, he will find things in very good order. I look forward to working with him on all the many facets of a Black on all the many facets of a Black Rod is a unique role. It is a privilege, a behalf of my crossbench colleagues, to be a person that pays colleagues, to be a person that pays tribute to Sarah Clarke.

While we've known Sarah since she was Black Rod, known Sarah since she was Black Rod, she has been fulfilling three distinct roles, all of which involved crossbench members of the involved crossbench members of the Black Rod is not only the sergeant Black Rod is not only the sergeant in arms here in the House of Lords, but also the shirt to the order of the Garter and a secretary to the Lord Great Chamberlain. Sarah's first Garter ceremony was at first Garter ceremony was at Windsor.

And naturally she arrived early, with her uniform practically early, with her uniform practically in a great bag. She and three others got into the lift, which promptly broke down, between the floors. Help was summoned and Sarah took charge was summoned and Sarah took charge of the lift, for time was short. One of the lift, for time was short. One instructions, others in the lift and exam that affords wild Sarah change behind them. Just as a decency was restored, the lift creaked on and the Windsor Fire Brigade were surprised to find an immaculate Black Rod, with a dress, as an ankle warmer at the bottom.

She stepped forth, of course with her usual affection and big smile and the Garter ceremony was none the wiser. The Lord Great Chamberlain remarked to me, on Black Rod's modernisations of the ceremony. One was to cut out the Kante of 100 garters to the Commons from the Lord Chamberlain. Sarah has now arranged it so that the great Chamberlain waves is very long warned, at a Black Rod already standing, allowing a Black Rod then to strike to the Commons with dignity.

Dignity not available to other Black Rod's in the centuries. The Lord Great Chamberlain is new method, owing something to his inner Apache warrior, is a great testament to his dignity. -- Kante. Sarah arrived as the noble Lord cook arrives on a bicycle dressed modestly and with an instant humour. It would be difficult with discussions in her office, her main weapons have been the chocolate digestive and her smile and how effective these have been. You have already heard of this six stage openings, the seven variations and the lying in state of funerals and the correlation of His Majesty The King.

What we have not heard is for these events, Sarah was on duty at 4 AM, each morning and occasionally earlier. Each of those events was an outstanding success. This apart, Sarah has been in charge of maintaining our proceedings in good order, this is including managing access for many other people who come to our House. Allowing for their and our safety in equal measure. This has all happened seemingly, Philip and with great charm. And a warm smile, we know of are Sarah -- effortlessly.

I know she would want me to mention a nil band/Fiona Channing, her colleagues who will be retiring later this year. And I very much salute them as well. In closing, you will note that I have not used the W word. Wimbledon, though we are all thinking of it. If Sarah had still been in charge, there would have been no nonsense with the line because this week. But Sarah is not

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going far, it is not goodbye, it is only a while. Is Convenor of the Lords Spiritual, I wish to offer our hard felt thanks to Sarah the way she has worked with those of us on these benches over these last 7.5 years. benches over these last 7.5 years. As others have already noted in a repeat she has held office as a point of great change, overseeing the response to the pandemic, during which time I myself arrived at a very Panta down Introduction.

very Panta down Introduction. Separation throughout that. Those Separation throughout that. Those major Royal events. As the first ever Lady Usher the Black Rod, Sarah's title embodies that change. Sarah's title embodies that change. In a very welcome one. I'm sure there was a very viable alternative, there was a very viable alternative, whilst we are these benches have willing members who remember standing in the Lord Bishop of had to refer to Sarah as a Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, may provoke the kind of arguments of those sex and gender, which have occupied the and gender, which have occupied the Supreme Court.

I am glad we were Supreme Court. I am glad we were spared that. A few weeks ago, as part of my induction as convener of these benches, I paid Sarah a visit these benches, I paid Sarah a visit in her office. It is been instructed in some of the more arcane duties before me. I was struck by the fact before me. I was struck by the fact that she was in uniform and neither was either. The formal garble office that both of us on these benches where in this chamber.

Servers are daily remember the long centuries through which this House to serve the nation. The Lordship's House is a place where both the change and tradition have combined, to produce a form of governance and that nobody invented, but which has served and evolved for many centuries. One where ceremonial and formal dress are combined with such state-of- the-art practices, as electronic voting system, that many of us are using later today. Newly appointed Bishops, when they arrive to be enthroned in the cathedral.

Sarah's duties have as with well known, involved having the door firmly shut in her face and being required to knock with her staff of office in order to gain entry. An important tradition, one which contrast with the open door policy. The collaborative style of working that she is a was maintained. A prayer from these benches as she moves on in life, doors, unlike the entrance at the moment will always open and never shut. We also wish the new Black Rod the best in his new role.



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Lastly and briefly, I would like to pay my own tribute to Sarah Clarke the her dedicated service to this House. I wish her the greatest this House. I wish her the greatest success and future career. Sarah has served Parliament with distinction for over seven years, most notably lying in state of Her late Majesty lying in state of Her late Majesty The Queen and recognition of that, she was appointed the commander of she was appointed the commander of the Royal Victoria order. A richly deserved honour.

I would like to deserved honour. I would like to offer heartfelt thanks to Sarah for her kindness and support to me, personally, during a significant and demanding., The demise of the Queen demanding., The demise of the Queen and the session of His Majesty The King. Sarah was, as mentioned the King. Sarah was, as mentioned the first Lady Usher the Black Rod, in 670 years and I am sure more will 670 years and I am sure more will follow in her footsteps, in the years to come.

And I also extend my years to come. And I also extend my warm welcome to the new Black Rod Lieutenant General Ed Davey's, I look forward to working with him and look forward to working with him and on behalf the house, I wish him
15:30
None Portrait Oral questions: The long-term impact of schemes for early release from prison on public confidence in the justice system
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every success, in his new post. First oral question, Lord Murray of Bloodworth. I beg leave to ask the question
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16:16
None Portrait Legislation: House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill – report stage (day 2) - part one
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have it. After close one, amendment

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have it. After close one, amendment Before speaking to amendment 13, I shall explain on the supplementary
16:17
Lord True Portrait Lord True (Conservative)
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list 13 A, a point that may have been an unintended effect of the been an unintended effect of the original drafting of amendment 13. Amendment 13 A ensures that the Amendment 13 A ensures that the proposal in this amendment 13, proposal in this amendment 13, before the house, will not apply to any existing member of this House, any existing member of this House, any existing member, but only to future ministerial appointments of future ministerial appointments of new life peers.

After all, on this side, we do not favour the. Expulsion of any member of your Expulsion of any member of your Lordships' House macro. Indeed your Lordships' House macro. Indeed your Lordships voted to support the constitutional principle only last week. It has been agreed in usual channels that if the clarifying amendments, 13 A is supported in a division in the main amendment 13 division in the main amendment 13 will be accepted as a consequential. There will be only one vote My Lords There will be only one vote My Lords on this issue, before the House.

And the purpose of this, is to send a the purpose of this, is to send a clear message to the other place and clear message to the other place and to the government, all governments. I emphasise all governments My Lords. I will come back to that. That service as a Minister, in your Lordships' House macro should be Lordships' House macro should be There are other issues that need to be addressed, including pension and severance pay. This amendment is about paid.

Now I spoke at some length on this in committee and I do not need to repeat all of the arguments here. Let me set out three firm principles, on which, surely we should all stand across this House. The first is a fair days pay, for a fair days work. The second is equal treatment for Ministers, in both treatment for Ministers, in both houses. The third is that no one, no member of this House should be prevented from serving their party, their House and their country, for the lack of a private means to do so.

That isn't an fairness that should have cease to exist in the 18th century, let alone now in the second quarter of the 21st century. The principles are set out currently apply in relation to laws and Ministers pay. Surely all government Ministers in the House of Lords, whatever party is in office should be paid. If they wish to renounce their pay, or any part of it, all well and good but that does not affect the basic underlying principles. Now, at committee, I spoke a very frankly of my sense of shame and I might have added anger, that I was unable to resolve this issue while I was a Leader of the House.

Because frankly of opposition at top of both major parties and exclude the noble Baroness opposite for stop she was extremely helpful and constructive in her discussions. I needn't repeat those points today towards the end of the last government. 14, 14 Ministers and Whips in this House were expected to Whips in this House were expected to work unpaid. The unpaid Ministers, including my noble friends, Lord Howell, Lord Minto, Lord Camrose and Lord Roborough and it is richly ironic that their public service and self-sacrifice then would now be rewarded by this bill as originally drafted, excluding them from our House.

And as I said at committee, my Lords, I felt particularly keenly that it was a disgrace that my noble friend, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, an internationally respected servant of his country will start doubling as being unpaid and unable to claim allowance, because he was so often able to attend the House because of his duties overseas. Such things should not happen. Today, the Downing Street website tells us, directly from their, the noble Baroness, the honourable lady of Chesterton, Lord Chancellor Flint, Lord Timpson, Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, they all work as the Ministers of state, unpaid.

The noble Lords, Lord Brady, Lord Wilson of Sedgefield, Lord Katz, Lord Lyon and Baroness lady Blake of Leeds, or work as government Whips, unpaid. According to the government website. This morning. -- Lord Lyon. Understanding the immense burden that falls on Whips, in your Lordships' House. It is quite different from what happens in the Commons. We admire them all greatly and I may say that each and every one of those Ministers that I have named our Ministers who are greatly admired and respected, by their colleagues on this side of the House.

No one should be required to do all that work, without pay. No one, in any other work place would tolerate that as a fair way to treat labour. One asks where is the clause in the human rights Bill, to right the wrongs, done not just to those individuals, but frankly did the dignity of this House. Now I take nothing away from the sense of public duty. I admire tremendously. It is a lead noble Lords to keep public service here.

Not everyone in this place has the means to do that. An fairness and injustice. It should end. The problem results from 250- year-old statutes, the ministerial and the act of 1975, the total number of paid Ministers to 109. House of Commons disqualification act 1975, allows for 95 Ministers, in the House of Commons. -- To 50- year-old statutes. The effective legal statutory limit for paid Ministers in your Lordships' House, under the limit 109 is just 14.

That is clearly not enough. The system must be changed. It could be changed by a simple bill agreed across the parties, to amend section 2, part five of schedule one of the 1975 act. Very swiftly. Self-sacrifice and sense of duty of those who serve for nothing should be respected. However it need not forever repeated. We cannot neglect this issue, for the dignity and effectiveness of this House. This amendment would force the hand of all future governments and all parties, in the other place to address this.

I hope we may agree, now that this bill has been amended and is going back to the other place, to send this important message down the corridor. On the message down the corridor. On the basis of my experience and my sense of the rightness and fairness of this House. I believe it is high time to open up the opportunity to every one of us here, who may wish to serve their party and the country as a Ministers, or Whips in this country, but cannot afford to do so, without pay, to have that chance.

We and our side will work across to agree and expedite a full solution, going beyond this initial step, which will redress the balance between Commons and Lords Ministers. In the interim, I commend this a first step to the House. The firm belief that if no messages ever sent, the same experiences I had, the same experience of the former leaders of the House have had to go on recurring. People here will be asked to work for nothing.

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Amendments proposed, after clause into the new clause is printed on the marshalled List. Amendment 13 A

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the marshalled List. Amendment 13 A as an amendment, Lord True? I have already spoken as

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I have already spoken as explained. Amendment proposed, as an explained. Amendment proposed, as an amendment to amendment 13, insert two, this section does not apply to two, this section does not apply to Ministers of the Crown appointed before the day on which this section comes into effect.
16:25
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
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Others like to pay tribute to the leader of the House, to my noble friend, for the efforts that were made in the last Parliament to right this wrong. Perhaps I could just make a few punching points. There is a limit, as my noble friend has explained on the total number of Ministers. And I'm very indebted to the last Parliament, Lord Young of Cookham, who pointed out that they do seem to be an increasing inflationary effect of the number of Ministers that are needed to run this country.

When I was Secretary of State through devolution, we were responsible for everything, not just the devolution in Scotland. One Secretary of State, four Ministers and two law officers. There are now 29 Ministers, in the Scottish parliament. Looking at my noble friend, Lord Clark, my noble friend Lord Clark and my noble friend and the noble Lord Lord Farnborough were running the Department of Transport in 1979, with two Ministers. And in 1979 that department was responsible for British Airways, the reports, the national trade cooperation.

None of which are applied to the previous of which are applied to the previous governments Department of transport, just a shot at being nonpartisan. In 1979 there were two Ministers and by 2023 there were five Ministers, in the Department of transport, with much less to do. The same is true if you look at 1979, there were five Ministers in the DHSS, which was then split into two departments, the Department of Health and the DWP. They had five Ministers in 1979.

The two departments had 12 Ministers. Now you could argue that things got more complicated, but it does seem to be that there is an inflationary effect to which even beats the Bank of England in their ability to create this kind of growth. I think it is very important that the principle that my noble friend has enunciated should be upheld. No one should be required to be unable to be a Minister because they have not got the private means to do so.

Just to follow up on my point. It doesn't look to me suspiciously like ministerial appointments in the other place is being used as a means of patronage. Patronage by the previous government, to make sure people will go through the roles that this government has got a huge, till recently they had a huge majority. It doesn't look as though that is what is happening. If you add onto that the appointment of people who act as trade envoys and so on.

It doesn't look as though appointments are being used which actually will increase the power of the Executive at the expense of the elected chamber and the House. I think my noble friends amendment, this principle is very important, it goes to the heart of the ability of Parliament to hold the Executive to account. This is not the only non- army in terms of the way this House is treated, in respect of renumeration. Our select committees. Our select committees as they go and do our work.

They only claim half a day's attendance. And yet if people have participated in our questions, remotely, they can claim a full day's attendance allowance. And I am sick to death of reading in the newspapers how, in this House we are paying £371 for just turning up and no one points out that out of those £371, people are expected to make a contribution to the overnight allowance, they are expected to be able to cover their own secretarial and research costs.

I just point out that in the other place at the allowances for secretarial and other support can adopt 1/4 of £1 million. The housing allowance is up to £25,000. Yes they've got constituents, but also in this House we are often a sitting along after the other place has gone, because we are clearing up the mess, which has been left, because bills have not been properly considered. And Ministers in this House, God bless them. Ministers in this House are expected to stand that Dispatch Box, and answer questions and not just on their departments, but for the whole of the government.

So this is an onerous task and the idea that people should be expected to do that unpaid is frankly utterly unpaid is frankly utterly outrageous. It is outrageous that the other end of the corridor for people to use patronage, because that is what I think is happening to create additional ministerial traditions. Goodness knows what they're all doing. They must have all known each other in Dubai. As far as I can see, we seem to go to a period whether Ministers were simply told what to do by the people in Number 10, unelected special advisers.

There is no justification for what is going on here. I very much hope the government will accept that there is support on all sides of this House for dealing with this anomaly and ensuring those people who serve our country so brilliantly by being Ministers on the front bench are properly rewarded for doing so, but more importantly that The other point I'd like to make is this system were ministers are expected to rush here, it is ridiculous. How can foreign office ministers, for example, like the noble Lady who may be doing important work overseas and is important work overseas and is completely unpaid.

Or defence ministers. It's completely unacceptable and it's yet another example of how the other place shows lack of respect for this place and how it receives our amendments, how it considers them, and how it treats our ministers and people in Parliament. I do hope the noble Lady will be able to persuade her colleagues to find a way of sorting this out finally, so that people can see this house respected and treated properly.
16:32
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
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As a proper probably the most recently retired unpaid Minister,... They raised the issue of principle. The issue is around Prime Minister's The issue is around Prime Minister's management of MPs in the Commons. Although I don't think this amendment is really appropriate in this bill, I do think it clearly is a substantive issue. It is unacceptable that members of -- ministers of the Crown are unpaid. It reduces the talent pool from which to choose. It also has a flavour of cricket 50 years ago of the gentlefolk amateurs.

Quite unfair but it does give that flavour of those compared to professional politicians. How can this be so? Of course, prime ministers could exercise rather more restraint over the number of columns ministers who are appointed. Good luck with that. -- comms. We could also bring forward a little bill to increase the number of paid ministers. I do believe, and I think Lord Forsyth has put his finger on it, the atmosphere in which we currently exercise, I just cannot leave the government would ever do that.

To actually increase the number of paid ministers. I do think it is worth acknowledging the inflation has go down a bit -- gone down a bit because research from the library shows that in 2010, Mr Cameron had 118 ministers which means that at least nine over unpaid. Mrs May had a similar figure in 2015. Mr Johnson had nine unpaid in December 2019, according to the Parliamentary library. Mr Rishi Sunak increased the figure to 17 unpaid ministers, 15 of whom were in Your Lordships' House.

Frankly, I'm very dubious about whether we will see any improvement until we come back to the fundamental issue which is substantive reform of Your Lordships' House. Lord Forsyth might shake his head but the reality is why is the Lords treated in the way it is? It is because we are not legitimate at the moment. I'm afraid the sort of amendments from the Lib the sort of amendments from the Lib Dems on an unelected house and even thinking -- tinkering around in terms of numbers is not going to cut the cake.

Until we decide what the role of the second chamber should be, what its powers should be, how its membership is arrived at, whether ministers would be appropriate to serve in such reformed second chamber. And finally, what are the respect of powers and relationships between the Lords and Commons and how do you resolve differences? Let's get down to the real business and really not go ahead with this proposal, which I'm afraid is for the worse.
16:36
Baroness Lawlor Portrait Baroness Lawlor (Conservative)
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I rise to support these amendments because arrangements in a free economy involved an exchange of labour in return for payment. And since time immemorial, we have accepted that the labourer is worthy of his hire. Not only does payment represent a benefit to him for work done, but it reflects the obligations on the employer to meet certain conditions and take certain responsibilities, as it does on him. In the case of ministerial salaries, as my noble friends have pointed out, it has long been recognised in law with limits, of course, put on the number of ministers in the Ministers of the Crown Act and the 1975 act expanded on that and the limits on numbers.

And paid ministers in the House of Lords are indeed -- should be entitled to claim parliamentary allow -- allowances under the rules of Parliament, but they are not and many lose out even on the parliamentary allowance if they are on business abroad. There is good reason to pay people for work expected of them and done. In my view, it is thrice blessed. It blesses he or she who gives his or her labour, he or she that takes the money, and he or she that benefits from the Labour.

I am in no doubt that without payment, and I speak as a former director of a think tank and employer, we cannot expect clear responsibilities to be fulfilled without Lords ministers and the public being clear about the obligations on all ministers, including those in the Lords, Parliament and the executive will not be seen to be responsible to their paymasters. We need to be clear about the duties and we know what the duties are in this chamber, but the public are not aware of the duties, and we've heard about the long hours and the serious grind that is put in by ministers of the Crown.

Therefore, it is very important, in my view, that this employment contract should be set out and people should be free to see roaming freely see what is expected of Ministers and that they fulfil their duties. It is very good for democracy, for our constitution and for accountability. I support the amendments and I also echo what my noble friend said. They can denounce the payment, they can give it to charity, but the principal remains. charity, but the principal remains.
16:39
16:40
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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I was also very happy to add my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend, Lord True, and I agree with the points that all my noble friends have made so far. In contrast to the rest of the bill where we have been debating very complex and profound elements of our constitution, this is much more of a commonsense and and. One that could be fixed with a single clause or even with a sunset clause attached to it if others agree there is even more reform needed.

One should be paid fairly for the work that one does to attract the widest in from the largest pool, and adopting the principles of meritocracy, as Earl Markham said. I would like to just make a couple of points. The first is stability. Both the previous government and the current government being able to attract people of great reputation and achievement but what we have seen historically, it has not always been a stable ministerial model. Actually, stability is a very important thing in terms of delivering and executing effectively a government's policy.

If the Minister changes every year, that is unhelpful. And I know that a number of previous ministers have felt unable to continue in their role despite the unquestioned expertise that they brought to it. And there is a kind of effectiveness point. I was fortunate enough to be a minister, and certainly in education, I did all of my visits pretty much on a Friday because I needed to claim for my expenses or whatever it's called, allowance, for attending Your Lordships' House.

Colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and so forth were not able to. There was an article in the Times in 2023 but reported a Conservative backbencher as saying, " You can always find ambitious " You can always find ambitious flunkies who will do the job but it is much harder to find someone good." I have to say I never thought of myself as an ambitious funky. I worked with excellent fellow ministers. -- flunky. For me, being ministers.

-- flunky. For me, being a minister, it was a highlight of my career and I would do it paid or career and I would do it paid or unpaid but it is not a choice we should ask colleagues to make. should ask colleagues to make.
16:43
Lord Caine Portrait Lord Caine (Conservative)
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Iris to support the amendment. I do so on the basis of some experience. In November, 2021, I was invited to join the government. Having been involved in the affairs of Northern Ireland since the mid- 1980s, it was familiar territory for me. At the time, it was made very clear that there was no salary. Ministers of the Crown are rightly forbidden from having outside forbidden from having outside . Summer fortunate enough to be independently wealthy.

Unless, I was not in the category. As a result, for reasons that will be understood across the house, it was necessary for me to attend Your Lordships' House each sitting day. To be an effective minister, as I know Northern Ireland requires a significant amount of engagement and visibility within Northern Ireland itself, and that was something I was constrained from doing. For the first year, invitations to attend events or meetings from Monday to Wednesday or substitute for other ministers had to be declined.

Noble Lords will be familiar with the ongoing significance of US involvement in the affairs of Northern Ireland and the importance of engaging with Irish-American. Of the ministerial team of three, I had by far the most experience in these matters and the best network of contacts. In March 2024, the then Secretary of State Brandon Lewis, asked me to accompany him on the Saint Patrick's visit roaming St Patrick's Day visit -- Saint Patrick's Day visit.

Lord Hain will be familiar with those events. It is essential that the UK govern's voice is heard. Had to decline in order to attend Your Lordships' House. It was a less than satisfactory situation. Has been referred to by a number of noble friends when they had been in government. It cannot be right that members of Your Lordships' House have to face challenges with which I grappled for a year and be expected to perform as ministers without a I strongly support my noble friend and urge herself, a distinguished Northern Ireland office Minister to accept this sensible and necessary amendment.
16:46
16:48
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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act on it. Five years unpaid Lord Minister whip in the coalition Minister whip in the coalition government. I would say that we had government. I would say that we had a coalition government and we may find ourselves with the coalition after the next government. There may well be an argument for having a larger pool of Ministers. We have to spend some part of our time marking spend some part of our time marking each other, so to speak. My responsibilities were in the Foreign Office, the Cabinet office and I did indeed spend quite a lot of time indeed spend quite a lot of time outside the country because I enable the Foreign Office to send someone to another countries which would to another countries which would have otherwise been entirely neglected, without sending the most junior Minister, as it were to be junior Minister, as it were to be junior Minister, as it were to be there.

I was lucky enough to have an academic pension, WiFi has an academic pension, WiFi has an academic pension. That means we are moderately of the conservative moderately of the conservative variety. Actually one can't manage variety. Actually one can't manage much beyond. I did not mind missing some of the days in the House. -- My wife has an academic pension. It is range very widely, including the relationship between the two houses. I say to the noble Lord I'm reading the House of Lords and the 17th and early 18th century we had! Maybe we could move back towards that.

An appeal that is deliberately designed to be as narrow as possible we are talking about the relationship between the two houses. The way it is have been struck and how many Ministers we need. Lord Forsyth is absolutely, of course, patronage and keeping backbenchers in order. Has led to an expansion of government. He didn't make as much about the expansion of PPS is in the House as well as trade employers, which has meant, the House of Commons has ceased, in effect to do a lot of the job of scrutiny.

I met a Labour MP some weeks ago, who had been elected last year who said she was wondering what the purpose of an MP is, in the garter Commons now. You are not expected to be able to change the expected to be able to change the decision, or to get back, as it were the mistakes that your own government is making. There are some hypothetical issues there, but those issues are broader than this bill. We all know what the impact of this amendment in passing will be.

The House of Lords will have fewer Ministers. That would damage this House very considerably. The current government is highly unlikely to shrink Ministers of the Commons. If we want to shrink the number of Ministers, we should be agitating. Of course part of what is happened is as a local government has got weaker and weaker central government has taken on more and more of what used to be the role of democracy. Ministers had expanded in all the things that they do.

From these benches we will not support this bill. Yes we do favour much wider parliamentary reform. Yes we do favour much more thoroughgoing reform of this House. Yes we are immensely disappointed at the turbidity of this government with respect to this bill, as in so many other areas. Here we are in the bill which is concerned with small change in the nature of this Hause grow and is not able to persuade government, without a much longer conversation, to change the 1970 to change the way the Commons operates those in these benches will vote against the amendment.
16:52
16:52
16:53
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord are true for raising this issue and Lord Parkinson's amendments. He and I have discussed this many times. Indeed when he was Leader of the House. I think the principle of paid Ministers is an absolutely sound one. And I welcome both noble Lords, Lord Forsyth, to the Ministers union, which are happy to supply application forms in due course. I think as much Lord Forsyth is an unlikely candidate am sure he would be very welcome.

Let's go to the heart of the welcome. My honourable friend Lord Faulks, the clerks did decide it was in order. That is not to say they're not in scope. They are in scope, no matter how wide they go from the original title of the bill. I'm glad Lord True tabled his amendment 13 A, he did so recognising that the consequence of them at 13 would not only would we lose a Ministers from the government, if passed, would actually lose them from your Lordships House as well.

The Minister has welcomed his amendment. I think first it is right to say that the work of the Lords is one of the most difficult jobs in government, both paid I hasten to Our defence Ministers are paid Ministers, they are still here in the chamber, recognising their duty to also have a responsibility to the House as well as to other departments and to the government. The work they do, covers not just their ministerial work in the department, but it covers any other work related to the government.

They will ask questions on behalf of any issue affecting their department. I have a great pride in the Ministers we have, in our government. Indeed I have respected Ministers from either party, the three parties who have been in government, in the past. I disagree, actually with the noble Lady Barran when she said, she was quoting somebody else. About it being hard to find someone good. Actually we do find good people.

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They make a sacrifice. She did quite somebody and I accept To be clear, I completely

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To be clear, I completely disagree which is why I went on to

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say that I thought I had worked with excellent Ministers and we have excellent Ministers. I thought that was a quote she

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I thought that was a quote she was making. The points made about ministerial pay, again was a very supportive and valued defence. Lord Forsyth, went a little bit wider than this issue. Lord Wallace as than this issue. Lord Wallace as well, talked about the House of Lords and House of Commons. It shows the appetite for looking at these issues across government. I have to say that as the noble Lord true say that as the noble Lord true confessed we have been able to make some improvements in this some improvements in this government, before the general election there were 31 Ministers in government, in your Lordships House, government, in your Lordships House, only 17 were paid and 14 were unpaid.

We have been able to improve the situation now, that we have only nine unpaid Ministers, 20 Ministers. Lord Forsyth asked for an assurance from me that I would use my best endeavours and persuade colleagues to try to find a way forward to deliver this. Lord True knows that I have done so since I have been imposed and that is where the position is so much better than it was, I look forward to further improvements in that regard. Lord True gave three principles.

One was a fair days pay, for work done. The second was equal treatment. There isn't equal treatment between the two houses, he will be aware that ministerial salaries, that Ministers receive in the House of Commons is in addition to their salary stuck in the House of Commons that there is a choice, in the sense that Ministers who aren't paid do claim can claim the daily allowance. To say they are completely unpaid. We understand what we mean, members outside may not.

It is worth looking as well, that since 2010, there has been no incremental cost of living increases in ministerial salaries. And that has meant that for those Ministers who as we term are unpaid, particularly if they live in London, they can actually be earning more than the Ministers who aren't paid. There are a number of issues to be addressed. I'll discuss the figures, is very similar amounts. When I'm pointing out is that there are a number of issues to be addressed about the inequalities between both houses.

And I think we all agree about serving. The principle behind the amendment, but I will say, I think if the noble Lord had, as his think if the noble Lord had, as his To amend the ministerial and other salaries act, to increase the number of Ministers over all, that would guarantee, it would help certainly increase the number of Ministers. In terms it has always been the case, since then that a small number of unpaid Ministers, under the last government in your Lordships House.

In looking at this amendment, if this amendment was passed, it would not mean any currently unpaid laws Minister would receive a salary. It would have no impact. It would not increase the number of salaries available for Ministers and therefore a practical solution to what we all agree is a problem. It would also put limits on the ability of the Prime Minister to choose the Ministers he or she seeks to do so. Although this amendment would have no effect, we cannot support this amendment.

I do think there is an issue to be addressed. The noble Lord Forsyth is leaping to his feet. The assurance that he saw that we are doing so. I think you can take some comfort this is significantly better the situation and it was under the last government before I ask the noble Lord true to withdraw I will take one intervention.

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Before the noble Lady sits down. If the amendment 13 was to be If the amendment 13 was to be passed, amendment 13 A is clearly sensible. We are going to vote, sensible. We are going to vote, consider amendment 13 A first. Would be possible to agree 13 A first and be possible to agree 13 A first and

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then vote against amendment 13? The noble Lord makes an interesting point. But understanding interesting point. But understanding is that we would be voting on 13 A first and Lord True has said, it is consequential and he would not seek to press 13. It would have to be a to press 13. It would have to be a vote for or against 13 A, rather

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vote for or against 13 A, rather I am most grateful to the leader of the. I think that the point made by the Noble Lord Hunt may have some validity, but in respect that he validity, but in respect that he said in practical terms it probably means increasing the number of Ministers to deal with this issue, which is a one clause bill which which is a one clause bill which could be agreed between the first frontbenchers and would go through fairly quickly I would suggest Castlewood the Noble Lady explore the possibility of doing that with colleagues.

My Noble Friend Lord True tried this with the last Government and, unfortunately, there was a view at the top of the party that did not understand this space and did not agree to it, but I think that in fairness there is overwhelming support that anyone that understood this issue surely

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would find it possible. You make an interesting point,

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You make an interesting point, and I know that the build he refers to under the last Government we were never approached about that draft bills. And the Noble Lord troops bills. And the Noble Lord troops spoke to me about it, do not think in the ever place it was ever discussed and we were never poked about it. I think that there are two ways of dealing with this. One is an increase in the number of Ministers, increase in the number of Ministers, or some way to look at the number of lots Ministers within the total number of Ministers and I think we made no important point when he said the number of businesses overall is growing in Government.

Is that necessary or not? I think a discussion around that could take place around those two issues, but I place around those two issues, but I think that we do want to secure for this House that we have the right number of business to do the work that is required of us. Having said that is required of us. Having said that, this amendment is not a way to achieve that. It will not take us any further forward and I think his suggestion is a better suggestion

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suggestion is a better suggestion and I am happy to take that one forward, but I do urge the Noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. I am very grateful for all those

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I am very grateful for all those who have spoken in this short debate and I have been struck above all by and I have been struck above all by one thing, that absolutely nobody who spoke has disagreed with the principle behind this amendment. It has had universal support. We did have a startling intervention from the Liberal Democrat benches who said that they supported the principle of it, but would vote

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against it. The Noble Lord said his amendment has universal support. It does not have universal support. And what I have universal support. And what I did say is that in principle of supporting our Lord's Ministers and supporting our Lord's Ministers and I deferred Noble Lord Forsyth way forward on this, so I do not support the amendment, and I do not think anyone disagrees that the principal

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anyone disagrees that the principal ensured we have the rights of our Ministers. That is exactly my point and that noble Baroness has reiterated.

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noble Baroness has reiterated. I did point out that the consequences of this would be a reduction in the number of noble Lords Ministers to be extremely bad for the House.

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for the House. Also, incorrect, it needn't necessarily do that at all, and I must say when I heard the Liberal must say when I heard the Liberal Democrat bench, we cannot support this because this is very narrow, this because this is very narrow, won't those the benches that pressed won't those the benches that pressed two divisions on this bill to redesign the House on a democratic redesign the House on a democratic basis? And they have the gall to come forward and say that your Lordships should not actually ask that Ministers be paid.

And it was that Ministers be paid. And it was even more startling from the Liberal Democrat benches there intervention. The intervention from the Noble Lord Hunt of Kings Heath who is universally respected in this House I thought was Jermaine and I would like to thank him. I had not realised he was also on that list for unpaid Ministers which would have been 10 up to if you to go, but the Noble Lord very skilfully, the noble and learned Lord immediately picked up that the key point he made, I think he said there is never going to be a bill that comes along to deal with this.

And, frankly, as I said, we have the employment rights Bill.

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I served as WIPO on the 99 bill. I was present for every session. And I was present for every session. And I keep the flame that one day we will deal with these issues in a statutory way because I still stick to my point that you make no progress in this area whatsoever. progress in this area whatsoever. The idea, I know they may not agree The idea, I know they may not agree with me but the idea that Government would bring forward till to say we are going to increase the number of Ministers is just completely naive.

Ministers is just completely naive. That is why, in the end, we should get to the real business of sorting out what this place should be ready

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for. The Noble Lord obviously absolutely makes my point for me. absolutely makes my point for me. When an opportunity arises, let's When an opportunity arises, let's put aside all the Aja of whether we like Hereditary Peers or not. We like Hereditary Peers or not. We have a bill that concerns our house. And the better workings of this And the better workings of this House. And as the Noble Lord said, if there is a mischief that might be if there is a mischief that might be addressed, let us use this bill to address it.

The bill has already been amended, it is not a bill that is in tact. It is not a bill that is
17:08
Lord True Portrait Lord True (Conservative)
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not going back to the House of Commons. And the House of Commons Commons. And the House of Commons under the successive Governments, the House of Commons will continue the House of Commons will continue to ignore the voice of the House of Lords in respect of our quest. And what we feel to support the amendment, it will force the House amendment, it will force the House of Commons to consider this point. It will force the House of Commons It will force the House of Commons to consider whether there should be a fair days pay for a fair days work a fair days pay for a fair days work in the House of Lords Bill.

People force the House of Commons to consider whether meritocracy should consider whether meritocracy should apply and the absence of wealth should not and I want the opportunity to serve your country. opportunity to serve your country. It will force the House of Commons to consider the principle that no one should be prevented from serving one should be prevented from serving the party or this House for private the party or this House for private means. Those are critical principles that should be laid before the House of Commons and this amendment enables that to be done.

I beg that enables that to be done. I beg that this appears on all sides that would stand up for their fellows, may be silent fellows in this House who secretly would like to come forward and serve, but as we have heard from the benches opposite have to look at those balances and ask, well, we cannot. Yes, we can and I beg to leave to test the opinion of the House.

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Testing amendment 13 a, the amendment, the question is that the amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", I think the not contents have it. The
17:09
None Portrait Division
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think the not contents have it. The question will be decided by division. I will advise the House Voting Voting is Voting is now Voting is now open. Voting is now open. Clear Voting is now open. Clear the Voting is now open. Clear the bar.

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My

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My Lords. My Lords. The My Lords. The question My Lords. The question is My Lords. The question is that they may amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content", Of the contrary, "Not "Content", Of the contrary, "Not content", the contents will go to the right by the throne, the not The The question The question is The question is that The question is that the The question is that the amendment

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They They have They have voted, They have voted, intense, They have voted, intense, 94,

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They have voted, intense, 94, not

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They have voted, intense, 94, not content, not 39239, so the contents Amendment Amendment 13. Amendment 13. It Amendment 13. It is Amendment 13. It is moved?

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Amendment 13. It is moved? Lord True has spoken in favour of the amendment and on his behalf I

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the amendment and on his behalf I move family. The question is that the

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The question is that the amendment be agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". The of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. The contents have contents have it. The contents have it. In that case, we move on to amendment 14 in the name of... Not amendment 14 in the name of... Not
17:21
None Portrait AMDT: 16 Lord Ashton of Hyde (Non-affiliated)
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move. 15 withdrawn, so 16, Lord

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Ashton of Hyde. In the committee stage of this bill, it was pretty much acknowledged that this amendment acknowledged that this amendment addressed a genuine problem. The House as a whole would benefit from a solution. That problem in a nutshell is that House of Lords nutshell is that House of Lords reform act 2014 clearly states that a notice of resignation must be a notice of resignation must be signed by the end witness, and therefore a peer has lost mental capacity and the clerk of the capacity and the clerk of the Parliament doesn't feel able to accept antennae signature, they accept antennae signature, they could be the preferred situation where appears at any could arrange medical care or sell a peer's house medical care or sell a peer's house but could not submit notice of resignation on behalf of the peer.

Thus leaving that peer free to speak or vote in the House when they really shouldn't. This is really shouldn't. This is undignified for the and bad for the undignified for the and bad for the reputation of the House. Amendment 16 and the House of Lords act 2014 16 and the House of Lords act 2014 to allow a person holding a lasting power of attorney to sign a letter of resignation on behalf of a peer. Following the debate at the committee, I don't think the intention of this controversial, and I won't spend more time on it, I do thank the leader of the and the clerk of the Parliament separately for spending time with me to discuss this amendment.

The leader has done what she said she would do at committee and together with the clerk of the Parliaments, has come up with a solution. The issue is whether it is the best one. In the decade also since the passing of the 2014 act, clerk of the Parliament and his predecessors have accepted legal advice that it would not be lawful to accept a notice of resignation by a peer's agent or attorney. So the leader recently commissioned further advice from the government legal department, which I'm informed admit that there are good arguments on both sides, but now advises that an attorney may submit a notice of resignation on behalf of the peer.

Onto that new government lawyers advice, but conscious of the good arguments on both sides, the clerk of the Parliament has changed his mind. And says he is now prepared to accept says he is now prepared to accept the legal risk of accepting a resignation letter from an attorney subject to certain safeguards. I should emphasise that the unfortunate clerk of the Parliaments is only implementing a system that we have created. But he is the person who is forced to take the legal risk by accepting this new advice instead of the previous advice.

Later he may be found to be correct. In accepting the new advice. Or he may not. What would happen if eight successive clerk of the Parliaments disagreed with his interpretation of the advice? What would happen if court found the advice was incorrect? Why should we leave the clerk of the Parliaments to bear the risk we have created? Surely it would be better if we make the situation clear by amending the 2014 act in the way suggested by this amendment. And by the way, the government is already amending the 2014 act in clause 3, section 4 of the bill.

As we all know, legislative time is at a premium. So adopting this amendment is a perfect opportunity for this House to do its duty to revise legislation and remove doubt. In the words of the leader of the when she was the Leader of the Opposition, there is an obligation on us to do what we can to improve legislation, that is

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our role. I beg to move. I assume he was just about to sit

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I assume he was just about to sit down. Tag might have, I have just moved the amendment.

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moved the amendment. Understand what he's suggesting this and I have a lot of sympathy this and I have a lot of sympathy but for clarity I would like to know, in his discussions with the clerk of the house, for the attorney to exercise and attorneys power, they would have to make sure that the person they were representing had actually lost capacity. What had actually lost capacity. What steps have been included to assess that capacity? Because under the Mental Capacity Act on which I Mental Capacity Act on which I served for many years, there is a procedure to assess somebody's capacity and I would just say, particularly in respect of often very elderly people, sometimes people are deemed to have lost people are deemed to have lost capacity when in fact they are suffering from things like urinary tract infections, so in order to exercise that power legally, what exercise that power legally, what has my noble friend agreed will be the way in which capacity is

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illegally accessed? As far as I understand it, the

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As far as I understand it, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 says that an attorney established under a lasting power of attorney must think about code of practice within that bill. And when they make decisions on the other person's behalf. So they are under a duty to abide by the code of practice which is contained within that bill.

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Forgive me, but within that code of practice is a very clear Code of of practice is a very clear Code of Conduct for and how capacity is assessed, and by whom it is assessed, and by whom it is assessed. There should be an assumption of capacity before that process starts.

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process starts. Exactly, so the attorney under a lasting power of attorney has duty lasting power of attorney has duty and if he or she was exercising that duty, within the grounds of the act, duty, within the grounds of the act, then they would be acting lawfully, and that is what they would do, they will establish the capacity using the advice that is contained in the the advice that is contained in the

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the advice that is contained in the In the case of doubt, I beg to move. Amendment proposed, after clause 1 insert the following new clause in the words as printed on the

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marshalled list. My Lords, I will be brief because
17:28
Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier (Conservative)
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My Lords, I will be brief because I spoke to this amendment, I co- signed it at committee. But this seems to me to be an amendment which is just based on common sense and is just based on common sense and one that this House should accept without question. It seems... It seems to me at least that this is a very timely amendment and one which is also based on humanity. There were, as I explained last time, or there are, two types of powers of attorney.

And section 1 of the 2014 act does not seem to come within either of those types of power. And therefore in order to avoid the confusion that currently seems to be abroad, we should make that go away by agreeing to my noble friend's amendment. We have heard something of what the clerk of the House may or may not think but with the greatest respect of the clerk of the house, what the clerk of the House thinks is neither here another. This is a government bill, and the government policy, presumably, is not to permit this amendment.

They must justify their refusal to accept the noble Lord's amendment, and cannot hide behind their lawyer or our clerk. The simple point is, are we to be humane, to allow those who have lost their capacity to be released from the burdens of membership of this House of Commons, of this House of Lords, or are we to leave them to hang on in some undignified way? This is sensible, it's humane, and its timely. And I support with great vigour of my noble friend's amendment.
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Lord Keen of Elie Portrait Lord Keen of Elie (Conservative)
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solution is not to put the matter, Mackay join with others to support the amendments proposed by my Noble Friend Lord Ashton. The Friend Lord Ashton. The constitutional role of this House is to review and improve legislation, to review and improve legislation, and this is a clear case of improving legislation. I make only two points. One to the observation two points. One to the observation made by the Noble Lord paddock, that we have never seen a second set of we have never seen a second set of legal advice has not been provided by the department.

There is absolutely no convincing reason why absolutely no convincing reason why confidentiality should not be waived in respect of that legal advice. It in respect of that legal advice. It is impossible for us to make any judgement without that. But it is equally clear that there remains equally clear that there remains doubt, real doubt, as to the advice doubt, real doubt, as to the advice that has been received because parliaments have talked about being willing to take a risk. There is only a risk where there is only a risk where there is uncertainty.

The second point I wish to voice is mental incapacity does not sincerely proceed in a linear fashion. Take the simple example of George III. Pronounced mental incapacity may be followed by clear and lengthy periods of lucidity, and, indeed, in the case of George III, that led to constitutional problems and went on to question some of the steps taken. Now, here, you also have the case of someone that suffers a massive nervous breakdown and then fully recovers to discover that they have been resigned from this House.

An irretrievable step, they cannot go back, and so what do they do, Dessie to challenge and review the decision on the grounds that it was unlawful and they may well succeed, but what happens if after one or two years in court it is determined that they were entitled to continue as a member of this House. And then see I would have acted in the following way with regard to primary or secondary legislation that passed through this House during the period that I was unlawfully prevented from contributing to the proceedings of this House.

It seems to me it just leads to a constitutional problem
17:34
Earl of Erroll Portrait The Earl of Erroll (Crossbench)
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and one that is resolved by a very straightforward amendment to the straightforward amendment to the I have seen two of these matters happened before. The whole thing about legal advice given to a about legal advice given to a minister being revealed to the House and I can't remember a huge row about it and that Mr actually, the house adjourned for about 10 minutes while everyone recovered their composure because the row got so composure because the row got so bad. And there has been long- bad.

And there has been long- standing legal advice, there it is a good thing or a bad thing, I think this is not the place probably, to bring it, unfortunately. Though I do bring it, unfortunately. Though I do agree with the help of the House on the other occasion they had been able to say what that advice was, able to say what that advice was, and I do not think this is the time to do it. There is a long precedence to do it. There is a long precedence for that.

And on the question of the powers of attorney I have met this as well to look at things like that and the answer is the question of capacity you get advice on it and capacity you get advice on it and you get legal advice on it and then if you want to push far enough you end up with protection, probably the end up with protection, probably the power of attorney, someone to push it that far. And it would be very unfortunate.

If it occurs in the case that a person recovered somewhat and two years later said no, I am afraid he would not have been sitting for two years, by reason of non-attendance, so that might just solve the problem.
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston Portrait Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Conservative)
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I rise in support of my noble friend's amendment and in addition to the legal arguments that have been made I just wanted to make a slightly different point which is it is a shame, actually, to be speaking before I have had the noble Baroness the leader set out her case, as my Noble Friend said, she was very clear in her response at Committee stage that she takes this matter very seriously and I know that she does and I know that as we discussed at Committee stage this is something that all of us that have led our groups have had to deal with and I think we are united in knowing that it needs addressing.

I think that, for me, the thing that I find hard to understand is why we would not use this opportunity that we have right now to put this matter beyond right now to put this matter beyond doubt. Because there are very few opportunities to do that. It is presented to us right now, so I would hope that the noble Baroness the leader would take this opportunity. If she does not, and my Noble Friend does push a division and is successful, I hope that in the period between now and the Commons considering any amendment that we passed that the noble Baroness the leader uses that opportunity to make the case to the Prime Minister and to her cabinet colleagues in support of this amendment because as the noble Baroness sometimes reminded me when I was sat where she is, that as the leader of the, she has a responsibility not just to bring the Governments arguments to this House, but also to take the arguments of this House and represent them back into Government and I think this is one of those occasions when the House would look to her to take that lead and I would simply add as well that on this occasion it is not political or partisan, it is something that is about serving the public interest, not just the interest of those of us as individual members and I hope very much that she is able to act in accordance with that if my Noble Friend does divide the House with a successful passing.
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17:39
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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I am grateful for that, and perhaps I can offer a way forward on this. This amendment is identical to the one tabled in committee. This particular amendment seeks to allow a person holding a lasting power of attorney to sign the notice of retirement and given to the clock and Parliament and I thought the debate we had in committee was a very useful one. And I think it was an example that it is the House at its best coming together to solve an issue that we all need to be resolved with the dignity of our members as well.

There was, of course, cross-party support for addressing the issue. I have to say that I think it lingered unresolved for far too long, and it is something that the House should have addressed a long time ago. So, at the Dispatch Box immediate commitment to this House to report back on the House. And I unable to do so positively today. Can I get some of the background of why this matters to me personally. It was something that I was concerned about before I was leader of, when I was a Leader of the Opposition.

And I know previously does were given the same advice as I was that it was not possible for somebody to be retired by power of attorney, and as their family had a particular case were a colleague whose health was declining, the family wished that member to retire. And when they approach the clock in Parliament they were told the member could not be retired but he could take a leave Thought that completely and totally unacceptable. Because we did not give that member the opportunity to leave this House with dignity.

And so I investigated further and I was shocked to discover that they would not even accept a power of attorney. And given that the circumstances with which the power of attorney is accepted as significant, for this House not to accept it seemed to me to be rather strange and I thought it was unacceptable. The director of a company that he could not retire through the House. And so I raised this matter with Parliament and I also sought my own Government legal advice and I have discussed the matter with and Leonard colleagues around the House and the clocks in Parliament and we have reached an immediate practical solution.

Members may or may not have seen the preceding committees report. Which the Clerk of Parliament contacted saying that having reviewed the legal advice available to him and his predecessors, subject to safeguards to come unto he would be linked to accept the noticeable regulation signed on behalf of those that have lost capacity in the Mental Health Act or their power of attorney from the 2005 act. The safeguards of that this is a standard procedure in all cases.

And if there was any doubt that they would raise that, OK, I have got a

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number of other points to make. Thank you. Just asking you to bear with me

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Just asking you to bear with me through this. On the basis of that is that legal advice received on is that legal advice received on that and understand the point made by the Noble Lord Paddick about not by the Noble Lord Paddick about not receiving or sharing legal advice even though that is a commonly held view was Government, but I may have a way forward on that. I think he a way forward on that. I think he will understand the risks for why Government does not share legal Government does not share legal advice.

But anyway, we have moved on, so it is now possible and I on, so it is now possible and I understand there are families of noble Lords that have looked presently to ensure that they can presently to ensure that they can retire their members who are ill. retire their members who are ill. So, that motion, that decision is So, that motion, that decision is the lasting power of attorney during power of attorney. So, we are clear power of attorney. So, we are clear that we can accept both of those.

Now, the risks that the Noble Lord Now, the risks that the Noble Lord has referred to is a position that may change again. The matters we considered proved by the procedure and privileges committee already which the Noble Lord also has amended with noble Lords the report was published that I shed on 24 June with details and development decisions have been made. Now, to state the obvious, I am sure that noble Lords understand this and to reverse this we require further consideration by the committee and any notification to the House so I am confident that position is practical, it is sustainable, and it will not be reversed.

In the House has a clear view on this matter that members should be able to retire with dignity through power of attorney, so my view is that we should let that work through to ensure that it takes effect, but listening to the discussion that is taking place to proceed further, I did take the view, and I have long held this view and discuss this with noble Lords across the House that this House should take responsibility for managing its own affairs. The question is does this have to be in statute in order to take effect? And, as I have said previously on issues like the time and participation I want the House to step up to its responsibilities, I have to say I question whether in order to resolve this we need primary legislation, but I do not think that we should pass legislation that is not needed, and I also concerned that as it is drafted amendment could create the risk of unintended consequences, unlike the report from the procedure and privileges committee, this amendment only makes provision for lasting power of attorney.

Now, this is part of the broad law that involves both enduring power of attorney which is recognising privileges and procedures and other forms of legal authority, such as the ordinary powers of attorney more regularly used when someone has individual affairs when they are temporarily unwell. Also other inclusions that the Noble Lady referred to in the Mental Capacity Act, 2005, the legislation writes that was carefully developed set out lasting power of attorney or enduring power of attorney that should or should not be relied upon and does ensure the safeguards are in place.

I seeding out just the lasting power of attorney, and making it so that a notice signed by a person holding one is effective in all circumstances, the amendment makes no provision for the wider context this is in. This is a complexity she went I have to admit to noble Lords when I first embarked upon this I thought it was a straightforward issue and the more I looked at it the more complex it has become. At the more I and where we are simple legislative fixtures for complicated issues, so I am grateful for the debate today and I do understand the strength across the There are so great that we need to have something in statute that ensures and eliminates any risk? I understand that point.

We want to get to the same outcome, I don't think there is difference in our view on this. I'll be honest about the options. Firstly, the noble Lord compresses amendment but we as a house, or we can accept the decision of the clerk asset out in the committee report, which they can about themselves of nowt. And families can look at now. Secondly, the noble Lord may push the amendment in the House can decide it has to be a statutory solution and vote his amendment.

The House will be saying that the only way forward is a statutory route. That would mean the current arrangements that are in place, as I took back, would have to fall, because we couldn't have the clerk, the Parliaments report, which currently will accept the lasting power of attorney of continuing if the House feels the only way forward is a statutory route. For those reasons, I would quite like to say to the House, I think we need, if his amendment was passed, it's not just a simple tidying up operation, is a bit more work to be done on that.

I make this offer to the noble Lord and the house, I have discussed this with him as well. I'm open to continuing discussions on this. I think we all want to get the same place but it takes extremely complex. And I think we want a solution that has longevity, but has durability, and is not going to be questioned further down the line. The amendment as it stands at present would have to be tightened up and is not sufficient on its side.

The offer I had made the noble Lord suggested, if we could have noble Lords have further discussions to see if we can find a way to take this forward, if the agreement can be reached, to bring forward changes to the bill, the fact that, that don't cause further problems, I'll make a commitment to the House on that, to take those forward. If agreement can't be reached, it still open to the noble Lord to bring forward his amendment at third reading. It's really the challenge by the noble Lady, can we find a way forward that we all agree on, we are trying to get the same point.

I hope we can. -- She's being extremely helpful. In the period before third reading, if the noble Lord Lord Ashton agrees with that approach, with the noble Lady be prepared at the very least to share with the House, or those who are interested in this issue, at least the substance of the legal advice so that we can understand what the issues and the uncertainties may be?

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The best way forward would be government lawyers to talk to the government lawyers to talk to the House to find a way forward, this is in the interest of the House to resolve that and if lawyers and resolve that and if lawyers and lawyers can talk, because I not a lawyers can talk, because I not a lawyer. But I have no intention of becoming a lawyer, but no Lord Pannick once accused me of being a Pannick once accused me of being a lawyer.

I took some pride. But we are all in the same place, we want to find a way forward.

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to find a way forward. Before that noble Lord lady sits down, has thought be given to the down, has thought be given to the fact that Scotland may not be the precise the same as England? I precise the same as England? I wasn't able to catch what was said in the original statement as to what formula is she is using backend must

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formula is she is using backend must be taken to ensure that Scotland would be covered by the solution put forward. He is right, and I'm grateful to him for the discussions we've had. him for the discussions we've had. Yes, in the legislative solution there would have to be referenced to Scotland as well. That is one Scotland as well. That is one confident the position we have currently for the procedure is the currently for the procedure is the right one, it works, but I accept in the views of noble Lords and what to -- want to have the matter beyond risk.

If it's possible to do that through discussions, and I've even said I will be happy to delay third reading to enable discussions to take place. That is a way forward on this. I hope that is available to the noble Lords. We do want to get this right. And none of us want to be in a position where a noble Lord whose family think it's appropriate for them to retire, to have a legislative limbo and not be able to...

If we pass this today we are in a position but I'm happy to have those discussions with lawyers, with government lawyers, between now and third reading to resolve the matter. I urge the noble Lord, I hope he will beg leave to withdraw his amendment.
17:51
Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde (Non-affiliated)
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I would like to thank everyone who spoke in this debate, including my co-signatories, the formidable legal team, I must say. And all the other speakers in this debate. I should repeat my thanks to the leader of the House who spent a lot of time with me discussing this. And I'm very grateful for her offer to work further on this matter over the coming weeks and I'm very willing to accept that but I'm afraid I don't think the commitment she has made, although generous, is enough, and I've noted that quite understandably, it included the ominous phrase, if agreement can be reached.



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I'm sorry to intervene, can I be clear, if he puts his amendment to the vote, can't support him in that amendment and therefore we can't have discussions on it between now and third reading because... It's because it will be part of the bill. because it will be part of the bill. So we're not able to have discussions because it will be part of the bill. We'll have to wait until ping-pong which is why I think it's a better route forward. I'm sorry if you don't quite understand sorry if you don't quite understand the procedures of how we would have the procedures of how we would have to manage this.

If we were the lead to -- prepared to delay the third reading, to allow the discussions to reading, to allow the discussions to take place, that would satisfy the whole House. I think it is a totally

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reasonable way forward. That's a shame that it is take it

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That's a shame that it is take it or leave it as far as discussions are concerns.

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are concerns. He will understand the procedures of the House if he puts it to the vote today and his motion is lost, vote today and his motion is lost, then we are the position we have, then we are the position we have, the motion that we had at the committee, and that stance, that the committee, and that stance, that the clerk is accepting it. If his motion is one it is therefore part of the bill. And we can't address that until they have been to the House of Commons so it's not take it or leave it, we are unable to do so within our procedures but the way the House could have the discussions is if we discuss them at third reading.

It's in his hands.

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I don't agree with that exactly. Because it's perfectly possible to have discussions even if it was in have discussions even if it was in the bill because first of all, even if there are particular problems, once it's in the bill, it can be

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brought back at third reading. If I can assist the House, for the companion, point .8 .153 says, an issue which has been fully debated and voted on or negatively by a previous stage of the bill may not be reopened by an amendment at third reading.

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third reading. Still ping-pong. I do accept what

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Still ping-pong. I do accept what the noble lady the leader of the the noble lady the leader of the House said. I'm quite surprised that there is such controversy on what I thought was a fairly common sense thought was a fairly common sense amendment. What we would like to do is get a solution that would, that is get a solution that would, that everyone would agree. And I think there is a principle here that errors, or problems with errors, or problems with legislation, should be addressed by legislation.

But if we have something that we all agree is wrong, on the face of a bill, that should be corrected by the face of the bill. I have accepted what the noble Lady has said about having discussions before third reading and also that the third reading could be delayed to enable the disc discussions. I'm sure that we will come to an agreement if we discuss this sensibly, so I'm therefore

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prepared to withdraw my management. -- My management. Is it your lordships' pleasure

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Is it your lordships' pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn? It is by leave withdrawn. We moved to
17:55
None Portrait AMDT: 17 Lord True (Conservative)
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amendment 17, Lord True.

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My Lords, in preface, might I

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My Lords, in preface, might I thank the noble Baroness leader of thank the noble Baroness leader of the House for her readiness on that amendment and I think we have reached a good point in the result reached a good point in the result of that discussion and I thank her for that although there is no doubt for that although there is no doubt in my mind that there is a matter to in my mind that there is a matter to resolve.

We now move on to amendment 17 which in my name, seeks to amend 17 which in my name, seeks to amend the life peerages, to place absolutely beyond doubt what I absolutely beyond doubt what I myself and many others consider actually probably is beyond doubt, actually probably is beyond doubt, the untrammelled power of the Crown to create a peerage that does not bring with it a summons to attend bring with it a summons to attend your Lordship's House. Throughout the passage of this bill, and over the passage of this bill, and over many, many years, if not decades, we have heard arguments about the size of the house, we have heard of the house, we have heard complaints about people who take peerages and then don't attend the house, we have had reference to house, we have had reference to people who accept a period and then very swiftly retired.

And we have also obviously heard on many occasions of criticism of the previous ministers extensive peerage creations. This one is not doing too badly but I have got no complaint, it is perfectly reasonable to my mind that the Labour Party should create more peers in this house, that has or has been my position and I stand by what I said when I was in government and I stand by what I said at this Dispatch Box. We welcome all these new peers in the good spirit that is customary in our house.

But we all know that not all who receive the supreme honour and dignity of a peerage for a life in many walks of service, in business, or the Armed Forces, or the arts, or even sport, I may say, many other walks of life actually want to be working peers. In this place. Or even feel they may be equipped to do so. Some come and then they very swiftly retired. Some very rarely pass those brass gates but in the statistics they still can't among start number.

And neither of those things actually serves the interests of the House as a whole. This is one of many reasons why I submit your Lordships that this is an overwhelming case for a modernising reform of our system of peerages, so that those who are worthy of being honoured in this way for their services to public life, with this extraordinary high degree of honour, but who do not want, or may not be able to fulfil the obligations to attend here, may receive a peerage for life without being required to take a seat here.

It's not in its place, but I have often hold the noble Lord Lord Foulkes of Cumnock make this point and I have a degree. Lord Lucas argued it very ably at committee stage and I was also pleased that the noble Lord Lord Wallace of Saltaire supported the sentiment at committee stage. I mean, he argued then, and I quote him, separating the honour from the obligation is an important part of how should be moving forward. I agree with him and I hope that now the bill is going back to the other place he will be as good as his word and support what he called this important part of moving forward.

They're actually having heard earlier that the LibDem policy on this bill is to vote against principles that they support, I wish I could be more confident that he would follow me if I chose to divide the House I will obviously listen carefully to the debate. Of course as I argued in committee, it is probable that the right to create a life peerage of this type already exists, indeed such a life peerage was created as recently as 2023, in the case of the present Duke of.

And there are many historical precedents, as I explained in committee. And when we hear a new peer introduced in the House, we hear our clerk in town every time, after the reference to the life peerage act, these words "and of all other powers in that behalf in arse These range of powers inherent to bestow upon peerages and other honours, but it is not done, because some people say the power does not really exist, it is not clear, it is not being done for a long time, as in the case of the present Duke of Edinburgh, so while it may then be legitimately argued they have the power to create title.

Already exists, the purpose of this amendment is to put it absolutely beyond doubt that frankly would encourage its potential use. Why shouldn't we have life peers who are not required to attend this House by writ of summons? writ of summons?

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It is a practical one, really, because there is a peer in the House that came into the House and did not make a Maiden speech because he considered the peerage and honour, considered the peerage and honour, and then one day the Prime Minister and then one day the Prime Minister said to that person by the way, with your experience, I have got a bit of your experience, I have got a bit of a job I want you to do that came in and made a Maiden speech.

And worked and made a Maiden speech. And worked inside the Government. That would not be possible with this kind of amendment.

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amendment. It would, my lords, in such a rare case to apply than a second rare case to apply than a second peerage, the life peerage under the 1958 act could be conferred, it 1958 act could be conferred, it would be very simple. Like much would be very simple. Like much constructive reform, the system may constructive reform, the system may not be a great innovation, it is an extension of principle that exists under the Royal prerogative and extension to the 1958 act so that none sitting life he has may be none sitting life he has may be created through a statutory process as well.

I think this would be helpful to Prime Ministers that helpful to Prime Ministers that wished on a distinguished man and women, but not necessarily to swell the ranks of the House. There are many fears and many lords who currently do not have the right to sit in your Lordships house and I found the arguments put against this proposition in committee faintly risible. I submit that a clear and unequivocal form, enabling the creation of none sitting life years under the 1958 act would be no more or less confusing than the current position, and it would relieve us of the potential difficulties, both for individual peers and for the House to which I refer.

It might save some future peers, and, indeed, your Lordships house, from the unnecessary embarrassment of including people who do not want to be here and do not want to stay here for very long. I cannot for the life of me why any Government would wish of me why any Government would wish

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to resist it and I beg leave to move this amendment. Amendment proposed, after clause
18:04
Lord Grocott Portrait Lord Grocott (Labour)
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Amendment proposed, after clause 9 and set the new clause printed on the Marshall list. I will risk the possibility of being called visible light Lord True being called visible light Lord True for disagreeing with him. But I think that he has failed to spell out precisely the point that he should have done, by my Noble Friend Lord Fox as someone who thought we should separate membership of this House from the peerage. I agree with that, I think it is a very good idea, but of course there are two ways of doing it.

One way is to say right, you do not require the peerage to be in this House, you do not need a title, we could call members that deals with a problem. Just as effectively as the problem he has constructed which I do not think is a serious one which is we create a new category of peer which is the last thing we would want to be doing I would have thought enable of this sort which is trying to simplify and clarify membership of this House, however far from that we have strayed, because according to my reckoning, if we were to make that mistake of following Lord True's advice, we would then have six categories of membership of this House.

We would have Hereditary Peers here due to the amendment we have carried for at least another 40 years, maybe longer, some Hereditary Peers here. There would be lords, some remaining from the previous legislation other would-be bishops, there would be Life Peers. And there would be, we would still have, though not of course as members of the law but we would still have the Hereditary Peers who are not able to sit. And these adding a further category which is Life Peers that are not able to sit in the Lords.

If he tries to explain that in understanding the House of Lords to the average anybody, let's say 18- year-olds during British year-olds during British constitution at the moment, that is just the ultimate in making a mountain out of a molehill. We do not need additional categories of membership in this House. We need

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fewer categories on this House. I am not proposing an additional category members of this House, the category members of this House, the whole point of this amendment is that those people should not be members of this House, and by the way any life that retires from this way any life that retires from this House is still a life here, so is he

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confused by that one? If Lord True cannot see the

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If Lord True cannot see the difference in category between a life that can sit in here and legislate and a Life Peers that legislate and a Life Peers that cannot, then we are going to have considerable difficulty in having a sensible discussion. There are, obviously, fundamental differences, just as there is a fundamental difference between and hereditary peer who cannot sit in this House peer who cannot sit in this House because he is not one of the
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18:11
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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The combination of titles with membership in the second chamber is one of the many things we have inherited from the mediaeval period of the 16th and 17th centuries. It is very pleasant, particularly enjoy the title I have because the village in which I live is a very special one in a World Heritage site and you are welcome to can't visit us. But I am occasionally confused. Some years ago I was at a conference in Japan for which I had to return early.

As I shared a taxi with a senior Japanese diplomat to the airport, he said to me in his most polite way, are you returning to your estates? And I wanted to say no, it is to my allotment, but did not feel that he would entirely understand the subtlety of that reply. We, in the Liberal Democrats, are in favour of working, it is interesting that the Noble Lord in his quirky way described this as a modernising version, it seems to us to be adding another area of complexity as the Noble Lord said to our already highly complex on us system.

There are plenty of honours throughout, there are knighthoods, there are dangerous, you may become a companion of honour or be given the order of merit. We are not quite sure why. Perhaps for the Conservative party in particular if one wants to award once more generous donors with something the title of peerage is a completely title of peerage is a completely important area, but the Noble Lord took the honour of quoting what I said at Committee stage, I emphasise in terms of modernising the role of second chamber we are in favour of reform in which the title would be separated from a member of the House.

What would then happen to the title is to us a matter of secondary importance. Another Noble Lord has a particular problem with the existence of Liberal Democrats that relates to enrichment and others in the past. If it is even more difficult now, for the Liberal Democrats are involved roughly at the same level as the Conservative party. But I note that the Noble Lord Forsyth used to object to the appallingly high number of Liberal Democrats, here to the point where as he would point out we had less than 10% of the number of Conservative MPs in the Commons.

Now that we are two thirds of the number of Conservative MPs in the Commons, I look at those very full benches and ask does Lord true really wish to defend the gross imbalance between conservatives in this House and the other forms of representation? I would just remind the Noble Lord that not only enrichment but also throughout England the number of Liberal Democrat councillors is about to overtake the number of conservatives, so I recognise there is of underlying problems for the Noble Lord and I think he wakes up to 30 in the morning and thinks about the Liberal Democrats in that fashion, but what my party wishes is to separate the illness system from membership of the House.

We value the work of this as a second chamber. We see this as working in the second chamber. We do not think should be modelled, in future, with the honour system. And this is not

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the place. My recollection of the coalition

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My recollection of the coalition Government was every time the Government wanted to get agreement on a policy that liberals demanded on a policy that liberals demanded more which is why we have got those numbers, and then for him to argue against this amendment is a particular example of that.

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particular example of that. The idea that Lord Forsyth just

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The idea that Lord Forsyth just quoted out is the first time I have heard it. I am not sure where his heard it. I am not sure where his source is. But simply do not wish to attain the House. This seems to us and a necessary amendment and we and a necessary amendment and we

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and a necessary amendment and we Member 17 is identical to

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Member 17 is identical to amendment 35. There was a lively debate on this proposal at committee, as I think we have seen
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent Portrait Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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committee, as I think we have seen today, however I would point to our extensive, comprehensive and long- standing honours system that seeks to recognise and promote the outstanding contributions made by individuals from the length and breadth of the country and all sections of society. With the sovereign as the fundable honour, honours are awarded based on merit, regardless of background for those who give service above and beyond to better the lives of others. Which I would have thought is an answer to the apparent problem suggested by the noble Lord Lord True.

Many of your Lordships will agree it is an honour to be appointed as a P. But that quite rightly wrings with it responsibilities to the work of your Lordship's House. Peers are pointed in recognition of their skills and expertise, and how that can be put to the service of your Lordship's House. And as my noble friend the Leader of the House of Lords tweet, party leaders should be mindful of this when making nominations. The government does not support the decoupling of a life peerage conferred under the life peerages act.

We have a manifesto commitment to introduce a participation requirement to ensure all peers contribute to the work of the House. Which many noble Lords have been clear they support. I certainly do not think creating another layer to the system to provide for the creation of non-active peers is in keeping with the mood of the House. The noble Lord Lord True and others have consistently advocated for a thoughtful and measured approach when implementing constitutional changes to avoid unintended. I'm not sure it is clear how this new honorary peerage would work in practice.

It is not clear what holack's role would be. There would be a role for another honours committee. If such a system will necessitate the need for additional governance structures. Nor who would remove such a title if we got to that point. In addition, to create a new class of peers with the same titles as the ones who sit and vote would exacerbate the confusion that already exists among the public regarding the difference between honours and peerages. In essence, I believe this amendment raises further questions that have not been given due consideration.

Especially when we already have an established and much respected honours system to recognise excellence. I therefore respectfully request the noble Lord respectfully request the noble Lord withdraw his amendment.
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Lord True Portrait Lord True (Conservative)
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I'm disappointed by the response from the party opposite. Isn't this the great reformist party? The party that says about the accomplishment that says about the accomplishment that it has is to change Britain? And we have heard from the front vent opposite that they cannot support the idea that anybody could be a PR or a newly created a peer that does not have to come and swell the numbers in your Lordship's House. That isn't the way that your Lordship's House in its devolved thinking has been going.

We have an important and interesting debate which is being proposed, put to us later, by the noble Lord Lord Burns. The whole tenure of the feeling of the House is that we should find ways to reduce the numbers. One way of reducing the numbers is reducing unnecessary entries by people who have no intention of being working peers and I agree with what the noble Baroness home and said, and if you google me you will find that I have repeatedly over many years proposed this reform and have done so even from the Dispatch Box opposite.



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Perhaps wasn't clear, the proposition to which I have always given support is the one that there given support is the one that there should be a complete separation of honours and titles from membership honours and titles from membership of your Lordship's House. That is what I haven't had the support for from the benches behind him.

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from the benches behind him. This is a separation but I think that the idea that, do we have such that the idea that, do we have such a low view of the public that we think the public can't tell one think the public can't tell one person from another? If I happen to hear from the Attorney-General of hear from the Attorney-General of the previous stage, offering this argument that was so confusing, does argument that was so confusing, does he think the public couldn't tell an attorney general, Major General? Are

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they so confused? It has been an argument against

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It has been an argument against any changes that the public would be any changes that the public would be unable to understand a voting system unable to understand a voting system in which one put one, two, three, four, rather than a. If that is the conservative view of the public as far as voters are concerned and I think you would find argue that without much more, related

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citizenship education could be expected understand the distinctions he is making. I'm startled by the interventions

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I'm startled by the interventions from those ventures. We had a referendum on proportional referendum on proportional representation, he may remember. I think the public will understood the think the public will understood the proposition being put them and they rejected. I think for the noble Lord to say the public doesn't to say the public doesn't understand, he's digging his own understand, he's digging his own whole further. And so as far as the Lib Dems is concerned, I love the Lib Dems is concerned, I love the Lib Dems.

One of the most beautiful Lib Dems. One of the most beautiful thing about England is the simplicity of Britain and beloved the charming eccentricities. All we the charming eccentricities. All we ask is that they are always charming which isn't always the case. But which isn't always the case. But they have been today. Let me return to the case in point. My noble to the case in point. My noble friend Lord Blencathra skewed it when he pointed out very fairly and when he pointed out very fairly and properly this was a very considered but the Burns committee.

It is in tenure with how the House is going. It is an extraordinary idea, we have headed already so that we support something but we can't support it today, but we might support it sometime in the future. This is a nonsensical argument. As is the argument with respect of the public might be confused. I remind the House that this isn't an unheard-of thought, something that many people have argued for over a period of years. It would be a useful addition to the honours system.

It would prevent the House from being burdened and embarrassed by those who frankly don't want to come here but deserve a high honour and I big E protest the opinion of the House.

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The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". I think the contrary, "Not content". I think the not content to have it. The question will be decided by a vote. I will
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18:36
None Portrait AMDT:18 The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)
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My Lords, amendment 18.

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My Lords, amendment 18. My Lords, each one of us receives on appointment and at the start of each subsequent Parliament a written each subsequent Parliament a written summons. The route says, and I quote summons. The route says, and I quote ,, "We strictly command you upon the faith and allegiance by which you are bound to us that considering the are bound to us that considering the difficulties of the set affairs and dangers impending, waving all dangers impending, waving all excuses, you have been personally present at our aforesaid Parliament.

Two treat and give your counsel upon Two treat and give your counsel upon the affairs. These words have a natural meaning and everyone who is in the chamber tonight is living up to their rate. I have observed in the various debates starting in November last year that those peers who are only in our house very rarely are not living up to the words or the spirit of their writ of summons. Legally speaking, the minimum attendance is governed by section 2 of the House of Lords Reform Act, 2014.

This provides that every PR must attend at least once during a session that lasts more than six months, or they cease to be a member going forward. There have been quite a lot of statistics during the passage of this bill. And I and I think many are very grateful to the Noble Lord Blencathra for his work in this area. I have run a few fresh statistics for this current session up to last Friday. 122 of our 834 members had attended less than 10% of the time.

In looking at how close people of the 122 are to the 10% line at the whole house level it is entirely reasonable to think that were this amendment to be enacted, 83 or 10% of the House might choose a retirement option. I have looked very carefully at the crossbench edition once again. The 10% hurdle is one that would allow a very important part of the crossbench to continue their valuable work in the House without it. Examples of this senior lawyers still in practice and senior academics, having looked at the statistics for this session, which I did not have available in committee, when I made a similar point, I can say that nothing has changed, and I feel a 10% hurdle is set with the interests of the House in mind.

I believe that this is the correct level to move participation to from that set in 2014. A further note that we are able to debate this and, in particular, thanks to the amendments of the noble and learned Lord Glen Catherine, that we were able to debate this at some length in committee. I am very sorry, have got the wrong draft in front of me. I think that my point is already made. And we have been able to debate this is number of times and throughout the House and having been present at every single one of the debates there has been general agreement that people who do not come do not fulfil their obligations under the writ of summons which is a very serious document.

There was not a single person who did not feel that this was wrong, and the only real debate is to how high the bar is that we set. And the main point that in the selfish interests of the crossbench we have a number of people who are not able to come more than 10% of the time, so for us we would want a lower bar. And it is the case that we would have a heck out the number of members, and I think a lot of us feel there are too many members in this House, and certainly the facilities that we enjoy, the number of offices and desks and the sheer cramming when I go and buy a sandwich that restaurant downstairs at lunchtime is also something that would be of benefit.

Anyway, I hope it will be a very interesting debate. Something that the noble leader and I have discussed over many months and I are very grateful and it is something that in fact the noble and learned Lord that I have also discussed as well with various interesting other ways around it, but, in the

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meantime, I beg to move. Amendment proposed after close ones with the new clause printed on
18:41
Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (Crossbench)
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the Marshall list. When I was convener in 2018. It

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When I was convener in 2018. It was in 2018 when my Noble Friend Lord Vernon produced his report Lord Vernon produced his report which received quite a lot of support across the House and I was persuaded it was one of my duties as convener to see whether I could persuade some members of the crossbenchers to retire, so that we achieve the balance that the Noble Lord was seeking. And what I did, and this is my own choice, I chose 10% which noble Earl has chosen in this amendment as the one that I would take.

And I was conscious simply the only way I could deal with this was writing letters to people who are below the 10% bar. Suggesting to them that it might be better for them to retire if they were not going to be able to make use of their privilege of membership of the House. I received a mixed response, I do not think I was particularly popular in making that suggestion, but some of them did respond, and a number of them did decide to retire.

The result of this was I was able to achieve the balance that the Noble Lord burns was proposing. I was able to maintain that during the rest of the tenure as convener into 2020. I was greatly helped by the fact that the Prime Minister at the time was Theresa May, she then was, who had very little interest in making, as far as the crossbenchers were concerned, proposing new members of the House, so it was quite easy for me to achieve, but looking back I am conscious of two problems.

The first was the problem of lack of authority and the convener that is much respected with the authority across the cross benches and just because I said was time to retire it is not necessarily something that they should follow in the House, and therefore I think that if we are going to follow this suggestion to attendance it is going to be configuration we do need a backing of something which will enable the proposal to be enforced. Whether it is by legislation or bite standing orders is a different matter, but some kind of backing is necessary if the Noble Lord and his successors are going to be able to maintain the idea that attendance below 10% is not acceptable any more, and therefore people should retire.

The other problem is, I think, and anticipating the Noble Lord burns will be telling us about in amendment 23, is the problem of the balance being upset by new peers coming in which exceeds the number of those who are retiring, so that is a different issue that we will come back to, but the main point I would like to take in support is that the 10% figure was warned that I decided was the right one in my time and I think we may go on to debate it, but it seemed to me to be the sensible one.

And the fat one is that we do need some kind of authority across all the benches who are seeking to enforce that idea. I are seeking to enforce that idea. I offer my support for that. I just want to mention one of the people to whom I wrote did we decide to retire. As somebody who was not living in London and had good reasons and found it very difficult to get here to attend and, looking back, I thought it was a shame that he did retire because he was somebody because who, if he was a little bit more active, would have made a major contribution.

But, in his case, he was only 1%. And I thought it is not really imagine. If he had been 9%, let's drop it and try a little harder, but his attendance was so far below that there was no chance, but we do have a question for having a cliff edge of 10% as to whether some people drop over the edge of the cliff who really should not do so, and that is probably something which the committee should be discussing quite

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carefully. Looking at the amendment and I'm happy with the percentage suggested, happy with the percentage suggested, but those are difficult. In 1995, I
18:45
18:46
Lord Blencathra Portrait Lord Blencathra (Conservative)
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I rise very briefly now to support the amendment. House miracle a committee stage I presented three a committee stage I presented three options for removal of periods in the middle of the House seem to call out the 10%. I said to Lord Attlee, leave of absence should deal with the problem he has just described. Let me make clear, if we were not in constantly told by the government that there are too many peerages, I would not necessarily advocate this measure.

If a peer turns up for 5% of settings and his not getting an allowance for the 95% of sittings he is not here so there is no burden on the taxpayer. But there is a burden on the rest of us doing the work, as we will find out in our hard-working registries are removed and the whips start asking for volunteers to fill the slots. We will then realise how much our hereditaries have been doing. I think this issue will now be considered by the new Select Committee and I look forward to the conclusions.

Two points, as suggested amending the act of 2014 and that proves the point I made to the noble Lord last week, that we may need legislation to do these things and it can't be done just by eternal standing orders. And second, and finally, when the Select Committee makes recommendations on attendance, how will we pass them into law? If we can't use standing orders, either through primary legislation, or secondary, in my amendment 23, I, I shall give quick way to do it with secondary legislation and I hope others will supported.
18:48
18:49
Lord Gove Portrait Lord Gove (Conservative)
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I hesitate to rise and was not intending to but since no other member of this House has spoken in opposition to the Earl of Kinnoull's amendment I should like to do so briefly. When I was Education Secretary, I introduced legislation order to deal with persistent absentees and therefore it might be thought I was in sympathy with the intent behind this particular amendment but one of the reasons why I'm very cautious about seeing this amendment go further is firstly, it is based on a full premise, premise that we hear often, that this House has two-minute members and new schemes must be found somehow to identify those who should be expunged or removed at any point.

If we look at the division and the division numbers and the votes we have just had, the numbers are lower in those divisions than one would expect in some of the divisions in the other place. The suggestion that there are too many members can often be a means of trying to get rid of those members whom the executive or others for whatever reason, ideological or otherwise, find inconvenient. A stone in the shoe. And we should not, in this House, be seeking to produce the range of voices to limit the number of members, or indeed potentially to forfeit expertise.

That takes me to my second point. Many of those members of this House who will not be here for 10, 11, 12 arbitrary percentage figure we choose, will be people of eminence who will be occupied outside in deploying the expertise for the public good, or who will have achieved eminence in a particular role, they may be for example former Prime Minister's. Would it be right if we found that for example Theresa May, Baroness for example Theresa May, Baroness May, were only to have attended this House for 9% of sittings in a given year, she should somehow be expelled? It would be an outrage.

But that is what would happen if we followed this arbitrary proposal. And that takes me to the third point. Because I note this is an amendment that comes from a place of courtesy and consideration and the crossbenchers are anxious to ensure that this House can accommodate itself to the request for a form that comes from the other place and from outside and that is why I'm so cautious in pushing back. But rather than seeking to bend the operation of our house to those who are not in sympathy with it, what we should seek to do is to ensure that this House operates effectively, and challenging for to legislation, and making sure expertise is deployed, not in attempting to regulate our numbers but attempting to recollect the flow of legislation that comes from the other place which is faulty and which benefits from the expertise here and if we lose a single voice that is expert and authoritative and challenging that executive, when we undermine the case for this place and that is why, with the greatest of respect, I

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oppose this amendment. We undermine respect for this House if we continue to have people who don't turn up more than once in each session. The answer to that
18:52
18:53
Lord Newby Portrait Lord Newby (Liberal Democrat)
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In my view, it is essential that we now move to a position where there is a rule which means that people who play no part, after period, cease to be members of shipped out. The noble Lord Lord Hope talked about persuading non-attendees to retire. I, too, have done that. In one case suited my memory, I went to see a member of the Liberal Democrat group to try to explain to him he had done nothing for a considerable number of years, it might be appropriate for him to retire.

He was extremely sweet, he smiled, and said, I'd never thought of that. Took some time to think about it. Years later, he still hadn't thought about it. So I'm absolutely certain we need to move. As for the objections of noble Lord Lord Gove, the people we are talking about aren't the stone in the shoe. They are never in the issue. And when they are in the shoe, they are normally sound at best because they don't do anything. The idea that we By saying that people had to be here rather more than they do a moment, I'm afraid as fast legislation is concerned, is just wrong because in my experience, the number of people who normally are never here, and suddenly turn up to play a full part in a bill, is immeasurably small.

My only problem with the amendment, as the noble Lord Lord Kinnoull knows, and as I have said before, is that this issue I think should be considered first person equity, for a number of reasons. 10% may be the right answer but it's worth thinking about that. The other thing which has been put to me, and it will be contentious, but at least we ought to think about is whether the requirement applies retrospectively not. Some people have said, unless it applies legislative we're just going to get flooded with people who have never been here before.

And the arguments for and against it but we need to discuss that. We haven't at all. For those reasons, while absolutely support the principle, if the noble Lord were to move this amendment to a division, I don't think we would be able to support him any longer.
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18:57
Earl of Erroll Portrait The Earl of Erroll (Crossbench)
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and you don't work, you do not deserve to be here. I will support my noble friend.

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I want to say something quickly, going back to the good old days, before first report, in those days, there were normally a lot of peers, many more than now. People turned up when they knew something about it. There was a hard-core who turned up There was a hard-core who turned up and was running thing for the two parties, but others turned up with a new something. And sometimes you would get swelling. Also you have would get swelling.

Also you have experts who only turned up when they only knew about it, and I remember we were talking about decommissioning the North Sea oil decommissioning the North Sea oil rigs and very few of us knew anything about it. And somebody on the backbenches there he stood up, the backbenches there he stood up, and gave the government a tour, tool, which completely destroyed everything they had got in the bill. everything they had got in the bill. Absolutely nothing about people who had not the stuff, and the had not the stuff, and the government stood up and said, I think we had better get together and discuss this, could you come and advise us and that was the end and advise us and that was the end and it all got sorted out.

But you have to be careful, but you don't look to be careful, but you don't look out some of the experts, it has been when legislation is coming up and you are preparing for it. I have been in IT all my life and I remember the identity cards, the things were impractical, and online identity and all those things and we did briefing papers, so we took a lot of time behind-the-scenes. I think that needs to be taken account of but I don't how you do it.

In principle I can see the point of this. When somebody does absolutely nothing, they need to move on.
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19:00
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)
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occupied the minds of him and many of his predecessors as convenience of the crossbenches, and we heard from Lord Hope of Craighead. In the section of its manifesto, seeing immediate reform of the House of Lords, the Labour Party pointed out that too many peers do not play a proper role in our democracy. And pledged to "introduce a new participation requirement". That does not form part of the bill that the Labour Party has laid before us but there's no reason why it should not.

And the noble Baroness the leader of the House always said she will be happy to proceed by consensus, where it is possible and I hope that following the lead of the noble Earl the convener of the crossbenches, we are able to establish some consensus on this question today. The noble Earl in opening his remarks reminded us on what authority we have all come to this House. We sit here in response to a writ of summons from our sovereign who has commanded us waving all excuses to be at the Parliament Holden here in Westminster to treat and give our counsel on certain arduous and urgent affairs.

Unbound Lodge, we During the last Parliament, noble Lords attended on average 646% of the days they were eligible to do so. Of the 906 six people eligible to return some of the last Parliament, 28 did not attend at all and 116 attended on less than 10% of the days that they could have done the threshold that is before our consideration now. They send a firm but polite message to join us a bit more option or retire gracefully helping us to improve the size and reputation of the House.

We are not a House of professional politicians and we don't want to become one. We remain busy, surgeons, judges, captains of industry, chancellors, vice chancellors, ambassadors and high commissioners, with experience past or present commence the works we do together holding the government of the day to account and improving legislation brought towards us. This was brought to Lord Attlee from the commendable example he gave the leave of allows...

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The problem is by running an NGO in Africa, if I had taken a leave of in Africa, if I had taken a leave of absence and came back on rest and recuperation and there was a debate

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recuperation and there was a debate about Rwanda I would not be able to take part. That is true, but it would be

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That is true, but it would be open to my noble friend to make the decision that he felt was the best way he could serve his country, way he could serve his country, doing the work or bringing experience to the debates present experience to the debates present before the House. Of course, as I before the House. Of course, as I said in Committee, we command the said in Committee, we command the less noble demands of those as husband and wives, parents, husband and wives, parents, grandparents, and they help us reflect the population that we reflect the population that we serve.

The government and the House serve. The government and the House are right to insist that we take our duties here seriously and that we duties here seriously and that we are seen to be doing so. We already have a minimum attendance requirement through section 2 of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. That requires just one day of attendance per session which the noble Earl and others argued is not commensurate with the command we received from our sovereign. Since that became law in 2014 and it became law thanks to an initiative taken here in the House, taken by a former leader of Liberal Democrats, Lord steel of Aikwood, who I think would be staggered to hear the argument from the leader of Liberal Democrats here that supports the debate but doesn't want to take the opportunity to take this change.

If that is the pace of change from the Liberal Democrats, no wonder they did not finish the job they started in 1911. Under the 2014 act that your Lordships decided, 16 noble Lords have been removed for failing to clear the low hurdle it established. Some of them were seriously ill and perhaps that has helped them take a decision that it would be painful to take more actively, but it leaves a large number of people of those in the manifesto do not play a proper role in our democracy.

In Committee, Lord knew me reminded us that we are here to give council not just on what we consider ourselves experts, but then arduous affairs that change on the course of a parliament. Lord Bethell reminded us that the collective deliberative act that we all undertake here requires getting to know one another, establishing bonds of trust and understanding and not just turning up and disappearing into rival division lobbies. That is how we establish the consensus our leader rightly wants us to achieve.

There is an emerging consensus in the House that the current attendance requirement of a single day per session without having to speak or vote or sit on a Committee is too low. Thanks to the spreadsheets compiled at the request of Lord Blencathra, we know who we are talking about without having to name names or point fingers. We can proceed calmly. The noble Lord is one who has looked at those closely and is satisfied that a 10% requirement would not affect what he called the low-frequency high-impact members who bring sparing but specialist contributions.

He missed my quoting if heater in citing the exam of Lord Lloyd Webber and I have sympathy for what he said. Lord Webber was driven from the House, attacked for being a musician first and a politician second. Disappointingly, he was not able to be with us here still when the pandemic hit to give his experience on behalf of the performing arts and West End theatres that were facing plight. The 10% threshold the noble Earl of the convener has looked at would raise the bar slightly but not prevent us from having the expertise of people like that noble Lord joining us sparingly and importantly for our debates.

I think he will find, Lord Gove, that Lady May Maidenhead will clear that bar quite easily. There are certainly further questions that the House will need to address in future and how we turn attendance into more active participation so we are not encouraging people to game the system, making speeches for the sake of appearing in Hansard and reciting speeches written by lobby groups into the pages of the official report and we are all embarrassed by colleagues from all corners of the House that turn up below the bar before a few poultry minutes and then skulk off after the first division of the day.

It would be a disgrace to dispel members from the House to address that problem. We can do this in bite-size chunks as the noble Baroness says. There is no reason why proper consideration of those issues in Select Committee ought future debates on Floor of the House should prevent us from taking this initiative today from saying we expect better and raising the bar a little bit higher. As Lord Pannick put it earlier, this is a mischief we can rectify. The noble Lords amendment is a sensible, timely upgrade to the 2014 act.

We seen it in operation for a decade and we can strengthen it. It would provide the authority the noble Lord Hope of Craighead says is necessary to make progress on an important issue. If we allow us ourselves time to consider matters without delaying taking a step that I think would genuinely improve the standing and function of the House. I hope the noble Lord will press his amendment when the debate is concluded and I hope we can embrace this important, timely and modest improvement to the functions of the House.

functions of the House.
19:09
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
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I and grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue today and we have had discussions on this issue and the discussions we had around the House on a number of occasions. My sense is a lot of support and encouragement for participation requirements. I do not think there is a consensus on what that level is and the noble Lord seems happy with 10%. There were a number of noble Lords against it and went for once a fortnight and that might cause ridicule to the House, but I don't know what the appropriate figure is but we can discuss it and look at what it could look like.

Noble Lords made a number of issues in the debate and Lord Pannick and others said once in a session does not really invite participation. I think we all know what we mean about participation and what is appropriate, but quantifying that with the debate around 10% is very helpful. Lord Gove says the amount it would reduce the range of voices, it does not reduce the range of voices if people don't attend the House. I think Baroness May would easily score on that point as well.

I do think that we have to consider how best to address this issue. Lord Lucas asked a really important question and I have to emphasise that and I come back again and I have said if the House can take responsibility for its own behaviour and actions it should do so. I have to say in terms of what the House could do in standing orders, I don't think it is 100% clear. If we can we should take responsibility and do it, but as I said about Select Committee being set up to look at these issues in the round which would be participation and attendance and retirement and how we as a House might go forward.

It would be very appropriate for the Committee to look at what immediate legislation and what can be done without. That would be a valid way. That would be a way forward. In terms of Lord Parkinson setting a figure in stone and statute, I'm not keen to do that. The reason why, I feel like I've been around the houses, the reason why it is before the House the way it is is because it was something where the principle of it was 25 years ago.

On attendance and participation, there is a consensus that something should be done, but I've not seen a consensus around the House in a particular number. I think it worthwhile for members of the House to look at this and how it could be done. We have not said what participation is as well. How do we do it? Should it be in statute? If we send amendments to the other place, those who attend more regularly in the other place might think 10% was a difficult area to

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justify and might have other ViewSonic. Those in the other place in the

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Those in the other place in the other place said that they would turn up once per session.

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turn up once per session. The expectation is... The opposition has said something similar. They chose the proposal to similar. They chose the proposal to not have two attend at all. There is an expectation and those members of the House want to participate in our activities and want to engage. It activities and want to engage. It isn't just about sitting here and listening to other people debating, listening to other people debating, but about playing a full role.

The point about expertise is an important one but we are not here important one but we are not here for our expertise because we are not on every single issue, but we are on every single issue, but we are here for the judgement we bring and making judgement listening to debate. I think process of a debate. I think process of a Committee of House looking at these issues, the timescale is important. issues, the timescale is important. If we let the momentum drop as we are keen to progress on this, we would be failing in our duty but I would anticipate soon after Royal Assent setting up a Committee to look at these issues in the round and make proposals to the House to consider and consider if we can move more quickly on some things that can be done without legislation, or prior to legislation.

I can give the noble Lord assurance and I'm keen we make progress as quickly as possible. I would hope that would reassure him. I have no intention of putting this on the backburner. All of the points raised are valid and those who are concerned about the reputation of the House but the value of the work we do is it is impossible to do that if they turn up occasionally to vote or just for one amendment. You will probably see that in its entirety and the number of noble Lords that do.

I am grateful to him for raising this and I hope that is a view he will put to Committee when they discuss these issues and I respectfully ask he withdraw his amendment. withdraw his amendment.
19:15
Earl of Kinnoull Portrait The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)
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This is the fourth time we have had a similar debate in the last As ever, it has been of a high quality and I'm grateful to those who participated in it. I referred earlier on to the many meetings I had with the Leader. I know how busy she is. In those meetings, we have been talking about the Committee and whether the committee could go a bit wider and deeper. I suspect that when we come to Lord Burns's amendment later in, this will be raised again, but the Committee in any event has this issue within it.

I've also had extensive discussions with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and these were discussions that were around standing orders and what standing orders could do within the House. Many will not be that familiar with standing orders but standing order number two is the one that regulates the minimum age for being in the House. The minimum age of 21 is nothing to do with statute. It is in the Standing Order. That is by way of example of how powerful standing orders can be.

Standing orders come straight down primary legislation so they can never strike down section 2 they can never strike down section 2 of the House of Lords format 2014 -- House of Lords Act 2014. It did seem that there is considerable promise in the Standing Order route. The Standing Order route also brings another difficulty in that it is very comforting to hear that Lord Hope was looking at statistics some years ago, and now I have to look at -- I've now looked at lots of statistics and we have come to the same answer.

There is some comfort in that. But still putting 10% Institute would mean that if it turned out it was the wrong number, it is very difficult to move that around if it was a Standing Order -- move that around. If it was a Standing Order, it would be rather better. I'm certainly feeling that the personally present words are not taken seriously enough by a large number of fellow members of the House. At the end of all of that and much discussion and thought, I have

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decided that I should beg leave to withdraw the motion. Is at your Lordships pleasure

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Is at your Lordships pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn? The amendment is by leave withdrawn. Amendments 19 and 20, already Amendments 19 and 20, already debated, not moved. Amendment 21, Viscount Thurso.

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Viscount Thurso. I rise to speak to amendment 21 in my name. It is substantially the same amendment as I put at committee
19:19
None Portrait AMDT: 21 Viscount Thurso (Liberal Democrat)
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same amendment as I put at committee stage and achieves the same purpose. There is one substantive difference and that is in timing. The amendment I put at committee stage would have come into effect during this parliament, when is this amendment would come into effect in the next Parliament. And I will explain briefly in a moment why I came to the decision to change that. The amendment itself is the same so I will not repeat the explanation, save that it creates term limits of 20 years.

Are not hugely humble -- hung up on 20 years or 25 years. I am concerned with the principal that nobody should have the right to sit in this place for ever. There is obviously a discussion around retirement, which we have had in the Select Committee, and I listened very carefully to the comments of the Lord Privy Seal in that debate last week. I think around that, the Select Committee will do a good job. I'm not sure if the Select Committee will entirely be able to do the job that is required.

The reasons I have gone for a new timing are firstly that I think it would be only fair to allow the current government the freedom to do what they wish during the lifetime of this Parliament to perhaps make up for some of the more egregious excesses that happened in the last Parliament. I think it is a little unfair to remove the current system, as it were, at half-time, change all the roles. -- Rules. The second reason was that if during the course of this Parliament, there is further reform, and if the Government are able to take through legislation which gives us a different landscape, then obviously, this amendment coming into force in the next Parliament could be got rid of or scrapped.

I want to make clear at the outset that what I have said in many of our debates - my primary choice would be a democratically constituted House of Lords. I have been saying that on and off in different guises for the best part of 30 years. I took part in the debate in the other place in 2012 and the draft consideration -- consideration of the draft legislation and was happy for that bill to achieve a second reading. But I recognise that having got that far up the hill and been marched back again by our then leader that there was little chance of anything substantive happening.

And I rather suspect that the Select Committee will do its work. Discussions will continue. But at the end of this Parliament, we will not be greatly further forward than we are. So this is a real long stop in the sense that if we arrive at that situation and if, as has been pointed out by a number of noble Lords, the electoral results in the next Parliament are somewhat more surprising than they might have been at the last general election, with indeed one Paul I saw showing it would be the largest party in the House of comments would have no representations -- Commons would have no representations.

Whilst the largest party in this house would be the fourth party in the Commons. I don't think my amendment solves that in any way, shape or form. But it puts a bear under the saddle to ensure that if we were in that circumstance, the government of the day would be to do something about it -- burr. My amendment ties in with amendment 23 in the name of Lord Burns, which I hope to speak to briefly later. With one exception, which I will leave it to that point.

However, I do think there is an opportunity in this legislation which may be the only legislation to do something that would affect no one in Your Lordships' House during this Parliament or any of the operation of this Parliament or fetter the Prime Minister in any way during the course of this Parliament. If none of the hopeful reforms came through, would take effect in this Parliament. I would say to other things in moving the amendment. The first was in response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and his comments earlier about function should come before form.

I take the diametrically opposite view and always have done. It was a point that was thrashed out in the Committee of both houses will be looked at it in 20 oh. I think the looked at it in 20 oh. I think the function comes before the form and it follows the history of what has happened in the relationship between the two houses. If you have long discussions about the funding -- function, you will end up never changing the form.

Most of all, what

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I say is... How on earth can you go ahead and

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How on earth can you go ahead and say we will elect the House of Lords without looking at the powers the house would have? You have the house would have? You have the conventions, which essentially are voluntary constraints on what we do. voluntary constraints on what we do. The conventions would not last one second with an elected House. It would just be wholly responsible to simply go ahead with out sorting out simply go ahead with out sorting out the powers and particularly what you do if there is dispute between the do if there is dispute between the two houses.

With the courts have to be involved? With other mechanisms which you have? You cannot go for an which you have? You cannot go for an elected house without sorting that

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out. One of the jobs of a fisherman is

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One of the jobs of a fisherman is to land the fly on top of the fish and what should take -- watch it and what should take -- watch it take the bait with vigour. If you'd like to meet me in the Bishop spa at like to meet me in the Bishop spa at any point, I will take him through any point, I will take him through the detail -- -- Bishops Bar. I will say that if she were to make me an offer as generous, I would grab it with both hands.

I genuinely hope that the government reflect on this. It has been put to me that this is not necessary because if we got our elected house, we won't need to have this form of term limit. It is true amendment is not about if we get an elected house, it is if we don't get elected house. And finally, if I could just conclude by saying I agree with the noble Lady the Lord Privy Seal when she said, as she once agreed with me when I said it, that we are here not for our expertise but for our judgement.

I don't have a vast amount of expertise, other than running hotels and fishing. I do think I have good judgement, however. My judgement is if we fail to do this at this juncture, we may well end up regretting it and not having the kind of reform that we all really

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would want to have. With that, I beg to move. Amendment proposed, after close one, leave out the new clause. one, leave out the new clause. Rights of Life Peers to sit in the house. Insert the new clause is printed on the Marshalled List. I printed on the Marshalled List. I must point out to your Lordships that this new clause proposed by that this new clause proposed by amendment 21 would be in substitution for the new clause which was agreed by the house which was agreed by the house earlier today in amendment 17.

earlier today in amendment 17.

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My Lords. 's I should perhaps declare an interest as one of the many members of this House who has many members of this House who has had the privilege to be in the house for over 20 years. That's not the reason for proposing the amendment.
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19:31
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
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I make a contribution in the name of amendment 31. It will require all life peerages to be created for a fixed term of 20 years. I looked up the debate that introduced the life peerages act 1958 to see why it was decided that new peers should be created for life. At second reading on December third 1957 I found that had participated Viscount Hailsham, Viscount Hailsham and Lord Attlee.. It was difficult to see the issue of why the new creation should be for life was never actually discussed.

Apart from the introductory speech from The Earl of Hume, what he said was we have willingly modified the hereditary principle by the introduction of Life Peers and as hereditary Peers were therefore life, that principle was applied to Life Peers and they would be there on equal terms. It was much more of a discussion as to why the daily allowance of three guineas would be enough to attract people of the right calibre. Now that there will be no more hereditary Peers here for life, the original logic making the rest of us here for life actually falls away.

The need for experience which is a feature needs to be balanced by the equally important news of that experience to be up- to-date. Someone at the top of their profession 20 years ago or more valued to the House than those top of their profession today. The amendment allows them to renew those qualities that make it different from the other place which is why I support the amendment.

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I should start by declaring an
19:33
Lord Newby Portrait Lord Newby (Liberal Democrat)
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I should start by declaring an interest in being a member of Your Lordships' House for 20 years and Lordships' House for 20 years and I'm grateful to my noble friend who introduced them as they prepared for others potentially. I absolutely agree with him that we need to move to a position where the House is refreshed and that is why we have spent so much time talking about other ways of doing it. The central one being that of retirement. I think in answer to Lord Young of Cookham, the consensus across the House of being here for life is no longer acceptable because the people in declining years, declining in Your Lordships' House is no longer something we wish to see.

The question is which this amendment raises, what is the best way of having that refreshment? I agree with Baroness Hayman. For some people I would like to think I was one of them but others may disagree, being here for quite a long time can bring benefits. It brings this benefit, I agree with that expertise to the point one never had it is more in the past, but on the other hand, there are some things of the parliamentary process and the way we do business which particularly in a curious body like this you work over a long period and I am in favour of a retirement age and I favour a younger retirement age.

If somebody was appointed at the age of 50, I'm was appointed at the age of 50, I'm not sure I would want them to be required to retire at 70. My noble friend says the advantage if we pass this amendment is it will be in case the Select Committee made no progress if they weren't doing things which we will ask it to do. It is incumbent on all of us to make sure it is a success.

I don't think this is going to help or hinder that process. It requires us to agree which we broadly speaking have, we want to make changes around retirement and participation and the best way to get around it is via Select Committee. I have complete sympathy with what my noble friend is trying to achieve. I cannot support it because I don't think it is the best way to get to the end she wants.
19:36
Baroness Finn Portrait Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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I will speak briefly in this debate as the issue was covered at Committee stage and touched on briefly last week. I thank noble Lords for their contribution. There have been a number of proposals for reform in the House during the debate on this bill in common with other proposals and even those being mooted for consideration by Select Committee. The amendment would only apply to new peers. The reason for this is the perennial problem as Lord Parkinson observed in Committee that any debate on House of Lords reform descends into self-interest.

I agree with the assessment of the amendment because as we have repeatedly stated from these benches, we fundamentally disagree with removal of active parliamentarians by the executive from Your Lordships' House. Not only does this remove some of the most active, knowledgeable members of the House, it fails to respect the existing rights and expectations of our long serving hereditary colleagues. I have been for my sins involved in negotiations with trade unions, leaders and representatives who sit on the benches opposite.

I have greatest rift respect for those and the way the support for their members. They would always argue for grandfather rights and against the removal of any rights or privileges for existing members. I hope that those on the Liberal Democrat benches have come round to our way of thinking and perhaps they will show the same kindness and consideration to hereditary colleagues in future votes. The noble viscount may have an incentive for not making a retrospective. If a 15 term limit were introduced without grandfather rights, by 20 2959 Liberal Democrat peers, more than 75% of their number, would have been removed from the House.

I will not repeat the reasons why we disagree with the amendment otherwise that we are a House of knowledge and experience. We should respect and appreciate public service. As such, we should not seek to prevent those actively and effectively contributing and wish to continue doing so and being able to serve. While I thank him for explaining his amendment today, it does not have the support of our benches. benches.
19:39
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent Portrait Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Amendment 21 tabled by the noble Lord is similar to the one in Committee with regard to a term limit of 20 years it may be of interest for the House to know the current average length of service is 13.7 years which suggests 20 years may or may not be something the House would want to consider. The government agrees with the principal about membership of the House not being for life, but respectfully disagrees with this approach. As set out in the manifesto, the government believes retirement age is the most effective way of realising this principle while achieving the objective of reducing the size of the House.

As the Leader of the House set out at the beginning of report stage, we want to see further reform and we are determined to maintain the enthusiasm to implement manifesto proposals. We think that can be achieved by establishing the Select Committee and will work with the channels to put forward a proposal for the removal. We believe putting this in bite-size chunks is the best way to progress forward with the House. I would also reiterate that we feel confident to take greater ownership of our affairs and that means we should consider where we can to implement solutions without the need for further legislation if that approach has the agreement of the House.

If there is an agreed view that legislation is a better way forward, it may help pave the way to take the relevant legislation forward because we will have agreed the view. I respectfully ask the noble Lord withdraw his amendment.
19:41
Viscount Thurso Portrait Viscount Thurso (Liberal Democrat)
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I am grateful to those who have taken part in this short debate which I think highlights the important issue of the size of this House and the fact more people are constantly coming in than going out and it's going to get bigger. I disagree with Lord Blackwell that people should be able to come whenever they wish. A time limit of a certain length is a fair way of ensuring current expertise and if you like not having the bed blocking that would otherwise happen.

I'm grateful to the comments from the Baroness Heymann and I knew she would not support me, but I'm grateful for the sympathy she gave to the point that I was making and Lord Young of Cookham, we were co- conspirators in the other place on many attempts to get a democratic outcome and it was very nice to have his understanding here today. I am grateful to Lord Newby for his comments. I respect his faith in the Select Committee.

My faith is not quite as strong as his but we will see where we go from here. With regards to Baroness Finn, I think she missed the point with considerable style but it is not about 15 years and my whole point is this was about laying it in the next Parliament to allow for people to look at the -- then. Baroness Anderson, if you are going to eat an elephant you should do it in bite- size chunks, but this has been around for 114 years and I have a strong suspicion it will be galloping around in another 114

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years. With that, I beg leave of the House to withdraw. The amendment is by leave withdrawn.

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withdrawn. I think this would be a convenient point to move to consider the statement and we will not return to the bill before 20:42.

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to the bill before 20:42. Further consideration on report

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Further consideration on report be now adjourned... Until 20:42. As many are of that opinion will say, "Content". Of the contrary, "not
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19:44
Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)
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With leave of the House With leave of the House I With leave of the House I will now repeat a statement made by the Health Secretary in another place. Health Secretary in another place. The statement is as follows. There are moments in our national story when our choices define who we are. In 1948, the Attlee government made a choice, founded on fairness, that everyone in our country deserves to everyone in our country deserves to receive the care they need, not just the care they can afford.

It is the care they can afford. It is enshrined in law and in the service of self our collective conviction of self our collective conviction that healthcare is not a privilege to be bought and sold, but a right to be bought and sold, but a right to be cherished and protected. Now it falls to our generation to make it falls to our generation to make the same choice, to rebuild our National Health Service and to protect in this century what at least government built for the last.

least government built for the last. This is the driving mission of our 10 year plan. In September, Lord 10 year plan. In September, Lord Darcy provided the diagnosis. The NHS was broken by 14 years of Conservative underinvestment and by their catastrophic top-down their catastrophic top-down Labour has put the NHS on the road to recovery. We promised 2 million extra appointments. We have delivered more than 4 million. We promised a thousand new GPs on the frontline.

We have recruited 1900. We have taken almost 0.25 million people of waiting list. We have launched an independent commission chaired by Baroness Casey to build a national consensus around a new National Care Service to meet the needs of older and disabled people into the 21st century. Today, the Prime Minister has set out a prescription to get the NHS back on its feet and make it fit for the future. Our plan will deliver three big shifts. The first is from hospital to community.

We will turn our National Health Service into neighbourhood health service. The principle is simple. Care should happen as locally as it can. Digitally by default, in a patient's home if possible. In a neighbourhood house -- health centre when needed and in a hospital were necessary. We will put neighbourhood health centres in every community so people can see a GP, nurse, physiotherapist, care worker and therapist, and they can get a test, scan or treatment for minor injuries or -- all under one roof.

The NHS will be organised around patients, rather than patients having to organise their lives around the NHS. It will be easier and faster to see a GP. We will train thousands more, and the 8 AM scramble, provide same-day consultations and bring back the family doctor -- 8am scramble. If you have multiple conditions and complex needs, the NHS will create a personal care plan. Pharmacies play an expanded role in the neighbourhood health service. They will manage long-term conditions, treat conditions such as obesity and high blood pressure, screen for disease and vaccinate against it.

We will also reform the dental contract to get more dentists doing NHS work, rebuilding NHS dentistry. Over the course of this plan, the majority of the 135 million outpatient appointments done each year will be moved out to hospitals -- out of hospitals. The funding will follow. A greater share of NHS investment is spent in primary and community care. The second shift is from analogue to digital. No longer will NHS staff have to enter seven passwords to log in to their computers.

They won't have to spend hours writing notes and entering data. Our plan will deliver fronts of data from parts of the job they hate so they can focus on part of the job they love, caring for patients. Nations will be given real control over single, secure and authoritative account with their data. The single patient record will mean NHS staff could see medical records and no patient's medical history so they can provide them with the best possible care.

Wearable technology will feed in real-time health status of patients health can be monitored well they stay in the comfort of their own home. With clinicians reaching out at the first signs of deterioration. The NHS app will become the front door to the health service, delivering power to the patient. You will be able to book and rearrange appointments for you, your children or a loved one you care for, get instant advice from an AI doctor, instant advice from an AI doctor, feedback on your care, and see what feedback other patients have left.

Choose where you are treated, book appointments in urgent care so you do not wait for hours, and refer yourself to a specialist were clinically appropriate. Of course, patients can already do all that but only if they can afford private health care. With labour's plan, every patient will receive a first class service, whatever their background and whatever they earn. The third shift is from sickness to prevention. Working with the food industry, we will make the healthy choice the easy choice to cut calories.

We will roll out obesity jabs on the NHS, we will get Britain moving with our new NHS scheme, and we will update schools food standards so that kids are fed healthy, nutritious meals. We will tackle the mental health crisis with support and every school to catch problems early. 24/7 support with virtual therapist for those with moderate needs and dedicated emergency departments for patients when they reach crisis point. The science is on our side. The revolution in artificial intelligence, machine learning and big data offers a golden opportunity to deliver better care to value.

New, innovative passports and the medicines healthcare programs rubber products regulatory agency will see medicines and technology rapidly adopted. Robotic surgery will become the norm in certain procedures so patients recover from surgery at home, rather than in hospital beds. The NHS will usher in a new age of medicine, leapfrogging disease so we are predicting and preventing rather than just diagnosing and treating. It is therefore the ambition of the plan to provide a test for every newborn baby -- genomic test for every newborn baby.

This plan is backed by extra funding by the end of the spending review period. As well as the biggest capital investment in the history of the NHS. Alongside investment comes reform. This plan slashes unnecessary bureaucracy and delivers power and resource to the frontline. It abolishes more than 200 bodies because listening to patients, guaranteeing safety and protecting whistleblowers is core business for the NHS. It should never have been outsourced. The plan commits to publishing tables to rank providers.

We will intervene to turn around failing providers and we will reinvent the foundation trust model in a new system of and autonomy. Pay will be tied to performance so excellence is recognised and failure has consequences. Tariffs will be reduced to boost productivity, block contracts will end with funding tied to outcomes. The plan gives power to the patients in hospitals are financially rewarded by a better service. It closes health inequalities by investing more in working class communities. It working class communities.

It establishes and that -- and national investigation into maternity and services to deliver the truth, justice an improvement that bereaved families deserve. I'm sometimes told that NHS staff are resistant to change. On the contrary, they are crying out for it. They suffer the moral injury of seeing the patient treated in unfit conditions. They are the ones driving innovation on the frontline so their fingerprints are all over this plan. The public are desperate for change as well. Each of us has our own story about the NHS and the difference it made to our lives.

We also know the consequences of failure. To succeed, we need to defeat the cynicism that says nothing ever changes. We know that changing our plan -- the change in our plan is possible because it is already happening. We have toured the length and breadth of the country and scouted the world for the best examples of reform. If Australia can effectively serve communities living in the outback, we can meet the needs of rural England. Of community health teams can go door-to-door to prevent illness in Brazil, we can certainly do the same in Bradford.

We know that we can build the neighbourhood health service because teams in Cornwall, Camden, Northumbria and Stratford are already showing us how to do it. We will take the best of the NHS to the rest of the NHS. We will apply to best examples of innovation from around the world to benefit people here at home. Above all else, we will give power to the patient. This plan fulfils -- Bevans commitment to put a megaphone at the mouth of every patient.

The NHS will be there for us when we need it. Of course, we know there are those on the right who are willing us to feel. They will exploit the crisis in the NHS in order to dismantle it. The honourable member for Clacton, Nigel forage, and his cronies argue that universal healthcare could be afforded in the 20th century but not in the 21st -- Nigel Farage. Labour rejects the pessimism and so do the public. That is the choice. It is change or bust and we choose change.

We know that the British people are counting on us. It. Was to ensure that the NHS not only survives but thrives, and we will not let our country down. Of course, if we succeed, we will be able to say with pride that were echoed down the 21st century that we were the generation who built an NHS fit for the future who built an NHS fit for the future and a fairer Britain where everyone lives well for longer. I commend this statement of the House.
19:57
Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Conservative)
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Before I begin, from these benches, I'd like to use this opportunity to thank the noble Baroness. I'm happy to see her back room and I look forward to seeing her back after the recess. -- I look forward to seeing her back after the recess. The answer has often been, opened what you have to wait for the 10 year plan." Not the panacea, it is time for some constructive debate. We will ask questions and perhaps offer some suggestions of improvements.

Let me be clear. The opposition welcomes aspects... It's a year and I'm still getting used to a year and I'm still getting used to it. The opposition welcomes aspects of this plan but we have many questions. The first thing is, I know there was a Casey Review but surely they understand we have to surely they understand we have to get here right. 30% of beds are waiting for discharge. It's about making sure people go to the community. Secondly, we agree about the use of technology.

I was Minister for Technology. This is something we will support if we can push this through as quickly as possible but also to ensure we can save both time and cost and improve the patient experience. There are far too many functions that are duplicated but also, if you fall off your bike in an area you don't live in, it should be easy for the clinicians in the base or the ambulance staff or paramedics to see your record and to pull it up.

We still haven't got there. Can the noble Baroness the Minister tell us if there will be duplication or whether we will be merging the records? The plan places emphasis on the NHS up. That is something I'm proud a Conservative government introduced. I hope the government will continue I am glad the government will continue to build on that. We know many people already have wearable technology and the integrate it with other apps. I just wanted to ask a question about concerns from patients who might worry about the personal data when it is shared with the app.

Where else is it shared? Can the government reassure people that their data will not be shared elsewhere? The next thing is a shift from the hospital to the community, something that we also agreed with. Page 36 says our aim is to establish a neighbourhood health a in every community. It says our neighbourhood will consist of 50,000 people. The Secretary of State said in his statement that we will aim for 250 The Secretary of State said in his statement that we will aim for 252 Simple Simple maths Simple maths suggests Simple maths suggests 50 Simple maths suggests 50 million people will be without one.

Could I ask the Minister to explain the maths behind this assertion of neighbourhood health centres and help noble Lords understand the maths and some clarification. If they do not serve the whole population and we don't have neighbourhood health centres everywhere, on what basis will they be set up? Who decides where they will be and if it does on the basis of need, deprivation or the politics of a local area. Will it complement existing practices? How to be make sure there is no duplication? We know we must tackle the obesity crisis.

The problem quite often we are tempted to go for top-down solutions banning this and that. When I speak to civil society organisations that work with people to encourage them to eat healthily, they are sceptical of these measures. A project like bright box near where I live in south London that goes into family homes and delivers ingredients and an easy to read menu that children can enjoy and teaches families to cook healthy food together. We need to get healthy eating and healthy cooking and sharing those on family homes and in deprived communities rather than a top-down solution to Whitehall or Westminster.

I would like to see more on how we engage the power of the community and civil society at local community level. We have fracture liaison services and there is only mentioned on page 165. I remember before the election last year, the current Secretary of State for health said he would act with immediate action on fracture liaison services. We had to give the government time to bed in. We have got the 10 year plan and there is nothing of concrete on them.

It is an easy one for the government. There is a lot to be gained and it will be realised in two or three years, easily before the next general elections. If the Minister does not have the answer, she can write to us and deposit a letter in the library. We look forward to her

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replies. We welcome the noble lady to her

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We welcome the noble lady to her place and I understand when I say this and I do so in the nicest way that we hope she is not too long in her place and Baroness Merron is with us again soon. These Liberal Democrat benches are a commitment to Democrat benches are a commitment to the NHS that remains absolute. We want to improve the health service want to improve the health service particularly with moving Claire to people's homes and our support is people's homes and our support is contingent on deliverables and to be contingent on deliverables and to be properly funded and crucially address the interconnected crisis in address the interconnected crisis in social care.

We have long championed you cannot fix the NHS without fixing social care. I conversed that as I read the new 10 year plan a familiar echo resonated through my familiar echo resonated through my mind. Having started my career as a manager in the health service in the manager in the health service in the early 90s, much of what is proposed sounds eerily familiar. This plan sounds eerily familiar. This plan speaks of a network of new neighbourhood-based care providing services between general practice and traditional general hospitals.

This is similar initiative to
20:06
Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)
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previous government echoing previous government echoing polyclinic's in 2007. What it teaches about wholesale shifts of teaches about wholesale shifts of care from hospital. It tells us this inevitably involves running the old system and the new one simultaneously which is without exception expensive. Hospitals will continue to form their essential functions and fixed costs will functions and fixed costs will remain. The new community service demand significant new investment in demand significant new investment in buildings and technology and there buildings and technology and there is no immediate savings.

Let us not forget the stark reality where we forget the stark reality where we want to repair our existing crumbling health estate rather than building numerous hubs. Crucially building numerous hubs. Crucially for any plan that speaks of shifting care out of hospitals, the most frequent use users of the NHS is the elderly population. Keeping them out of the setting is that dependent on effective social care. This remains effective social care. This remains largely absent from this new plan.

We search in vain for decade-long funding and develop a roadmap for social care, offering standalone fully resourced social care strategy. A crucial strategic failure undermining the very foundation on which the shift in community is based on. Moreover, the enthusiasm with digital transformation is understandable, the digital implementation plan of how to do it is absent. The app is an agnostic tall and does not provide direct care or give jabs or provide treatment. As the King's provide treatment. As the King's Fund shares its content, scribes can only transform the productivity of the NHS if staff do not need to spend 30 minutes each morning logging onto a multiple out of date IT system.

It remains unanswered fundamentally, how will this be delivered? The plan is ambitious, but it is being launched into an incredibly chaotic delivery environment marked by significant structural change within the health system bureaucracy. The key question for the government is how will this be delivered. I ask questions to the Minister. What precise funding strategy is embedded within the 10 year plan to deliver the necessary reform and integration of adult social care? Giving the running costs of health facilities, can the Minister provide a year by year financial breakdown of expenditure and how these investments lead to overall system efficiency and savings? Will the Minister commit to publishing within the next four months a comprehensive independently overseen delivery roadmap for this 10 year plan detailing specific year by year objectives and naming leagues and mechanisms for public reporting on progress.

We wish the ambitions well but the key challenge for the government is how it will deliver on being open and transparent on that. transparent on that.
20:08
Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)
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Can I start sending my very best wishes to Baroness Merron and no one more than me is looking forward to her making a very speedy recovery and I and very pleased to hear from her that she is making good progress and we look forward to her return. It is appropriate to declare an interest as my son is a GP, and I think that is perhaps slightly relevant in the debate today. Just to recap, before I go into more of the details, I would like to emphasise that this plan is different in so many ways to the NHS plans that have come before it.

It is a roadmap for radical reform as we have heard built on three fundamental shifts. Those of us that have been around the health agenda for a while recognise the aspiration in the past for these measures that there is never a bold, innovative collaborative plan to take our ambitions forward. From hospital to community, making access to GPs fairer and simpler is fundamental in the current climate. From analogue to digital, giving staff modern tools and patients the kind of convenience and control they expect elsewhere in their lives and I think all of us have had heartbreaking stories about parents that go from one specialist to another and there is not that join up.

This must be changed. There is no reason why this can't be across all of the experiences the public has regardless of where they are seeking services. Of course, many of us have been talking about prevention in so many areas of life, but where better than people's health? Really looking at the root causes of poor health and making healthy choices the easy choice. At the moment it isn't that easy. The new NHS has patients at its heart, will deliver equity and quality, is devolved and decentralised and more responsive to local community needs where the Frontline is freed up to harness innovations and the rules and incentives in the system support clinicians and lead us locally to make the right decisions.

Of course, this means there is not a simple chapter or section within the plan for individual conditions or groups setting top-down actions. The impact on particular services and outcomes will be through successfully transforming how our health ecosystem works. Of course as we will go on to the more specific questions, this is very much work in progress. I am delighted at the reach the consultation has had over the last year and has informed the debate and the outcome seen in the plan so there has been no surprises.

Many who have been involved recognise what is in the plan. The plan is backed by 29 billion per annum by the end of the period of extra investment. Crucially, by driving to cut unnecessary bureaucracy and empower staff to give them the tools to do what they do best and that is caring for patients. I would start by thanking the noble Lord for his constructive comments and they were exceptionally helpful and we look forward across the House to taking this extremely seriously and moving forward.

If I can pick up the social care comments that Lord Scriven and I share a positive background in local government and nothing is closer to our hearts than actually working out our hearts than actually working out how we are going to bring them together. Absolutely fundamental and noble Lords made the point very clearly. Over the next three years we will focus on the neighbourhood health approach of those most let down by the current system and of course those include older people with frailty and social care professionals will work alongside NHS staff in local teams supporting recovery, rehabilitation and independence and we have examples where this is happening and services are joined up and the cultural difference between the NHS and local government has been successfully broken down.

We must ensure that this is replicated and spread and we need to enable care professionals to take on more health-related responsibilities like blood pressure checks and reducing avoidable hospital administrations. Of course paid terms and conditions must be improved through that agreement. In the longer term, Baroness Casey will produce the interim report next week produce the interim report next week but it is work in progress. I was just testing everyone was with us.

Next year in anticipation of in- depth work she is involved with and there will be cross-party discussions and engagement with stakeholders, picking up on the self patient record, I must write to the merger and how the different system will be achieved. We are very much about the patient being in control and giving a full picture to staff Shift to the community. Of course, we will initially prioritise those living in areas of greatest deprivation.

Opening neighbourhood health centres in places where life expect see -- life expectancy is low. With the specific reference to the liaison's, I will have to write. I don't have the specific details in front of me. Responding to Lord Scriven, and again, just supporting Scriven, and again, just supporting the comments about social care - absolutely critical we get this right and ensure that local leaders are right in their, responsible for delivery, reductive, with a coordinated response, and building on the work that has already been done.

And of course, in terms of funding, 29 billion is quite a significant amount of resources to work from. We recognise that there are challenges. It would be wrong of me to pre-empt Baroness Casey's work but I know that she has been encouraged to work with the best of the best, and I look forward to the outcomes. I have to finish will stop I'm sorry, there is never enough time. I would just like to end by saying our health system is in crisis and we need to act now.

We must make sure that the NHS continues as a publicly funded service, free at the point of use. We need to seize the opportunities provided by all the new technologies and medicines outlined in the plan and really go forward for innovation, and make sure that patients are at the heart of everything that we do.
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Lord Bishop of Oxford Portrait The Lord Bishop of Oxford (Bishops)
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I welcome the Minister to her place. I extend the same good wishes to Baroness Merron. I welcome very much the three aspirations. I think they are significant. I think they are the right ones. They are a bold vision. While I welcome the move from analogue to digital, for me, the document raises significant questions. We are looking to build a National Health Service which cares for whole people, not machines. We need therefore to be concerned for physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health at every stage of life across the NHS.

That demands continued investment in people, including, of course, chaplains. I have specific questions around the ethics, governance and provision of technology. I want to ask the Minister when will -- were well responsibility life data storage which echo the government continue to outsource this to Pelletier or another provider -- Palantir. I'm mindful that our data stored by the NHS is a hugely valuable commercial assets. When will the ethical debates take place, around, for example, the proposal that people want to undergo wholesale -- genetic sequencing from birth, which raises massive issues for our society? The document as it stands is wholly positive about technology.

It is techno-optimism. Could the Minister please balance this by telling us about the safeguards and reservations and governance that the technology needs in order to deliver the human, humane and kind care that we need?

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Thank you. I thank the Right Reverend Prelate for the very thoughtful contribution. I think it thoughtful contribution. I think it is a particularly -- I think it is particularly of the moment. I particularly of the moment. I recognise everything he said about needing to focus on people. I think needing to focus on people. I think we have to look at this as technology enabling better care. technology enabling better care. Freeing up time. How many of us go to the GP and there is a frustration to the GP and there is a frustration on the restriction -- about the on the restriction -- about the restriction on time? So much of restriction on time? So much of their time is taken up with at been.

Of course, data protection is absolutely central. The health service is not the only area where we are looking at systems of data protection. Of course, the normal protection methodology will be brought to bear. We have to make brought to bear. We have to make sure that in terms of governance, there is a much more transparent and there is a much more transparent and open style, which frankly, we have to all admit in some cases has been missing. This is an opportunity to look in.

I have to admit that I will have to have a conversation about where the discussions take place but I know that throughout the professional bodies, these are considerations that are taken into account all the time. It is absolutely fundamental. If we think people at the centre building the workforce so they have the opportunities to thrive and do their jobs to the best of their abilities for their patients, that is the direction of travel that we are on.
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Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Labour)
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Can I start by saying to the noble Lady, the plan might echo things that have happened in the past, but there is an enormous difference now. As someone who has been involved, the depth of collaboration, bringing people together, all of those things, recognising the different culture between organisations. Of the 200 bodies that are going to be bodies that are going to be disbanded, HealthWatch is one and they have been so positive and contributed to the future plan of how this is all going to look.

I think there has been a step change in terms of how we get out and actually work with people. I feel it is a very ambitious plan. I'm pleased about that. I am also very optimistic because I think, quite frankly, too many professionals have got too close to the edge and they realised what's on the other side if we don't all pull together and do something about this. And of course I'm going to see that we are disappointed about the decision to strike.

The majority of resident doctors did not vote to strike. Threatening strike action that could harm patients and set back progress will setback all the progress, so no one is welcoming the strike from these benches, I can assure her. And it is the basic truth that under this government, resident doctors this government, resident doctors have received a 28.9 pay rise. The Secretary of State has already met with the BMA yesterday and while he can't... He has made it clear that the government can't go further unpaid and we have this year, has offered to work with them to resolve issues they might face around working conditions.

It will be, of course, down to their managers to work with members of staff and come

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up with a plan to deal with the action that is being proposed. I would really like to add my

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I would really like to add my

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I would really like to add my welcome to this 10 year plan, also to my noble friend welcoming her to to my noble friend welcoming her to her position, and to send my best wishes to the Minister Baroness Merron and hope that she recovers
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None Portrait AMDT: 23 Lord Burns (Crossbench)
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23, I beg your pardon. Lord Burns. I begin by saying I welcome the

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I begin by saying I welcome the statement from Baroness Smith and statement from Baroness Smith and her proposal to establish a dedicated Select Committee to undertake future work once this bill undertake future work once this bill becomes law. She highlighted specific proposals in the government manifesto, the retirement and manifesto, the retirement and participation on which she would like to make progress in Select Committee. There seems to be Committee. There seems to be consensus on the House on this and consensus on the House on this and many of us would agree.

The leader did not look at topics by the Select Committee and she suggested to become in the subsequent Committee and these were in the manifesto that stated the House of Lords is too big stated the House of Lords is too big and interpreted as a commitment. Several youthful conversations in this matter have occurred in recent weeks. If we are to address the issue of the size of the House we must address appointments and departures, either in this bill or subsequent.

Both matters are important. During the debate on the bill, considerably more attention has been given to measures that increase the numbers of peers leaving and with the number of appointments. The cross-party Committee which I shared with The Lord Speaker concurred that these may be in vain of the people leaving if no action is taken to constrain the number of appointments. The manifesto states the reason the House is too big is appointments are for life. However an additional more important reason is the present size of the House is on the Prime Minister's power and patron edge of appointment of members to the House.

With rare exceptions there has been a tendency for the number of appointments to exceed the number of The fact is there are no guardrails on point and is. By ministers can make more appointments than members who leave, and they do. They can appoint disproportionately from their own party and they often do. You don't have to gaze into a crystal ball when you can read an open book, as the saying goes. There is a regular pattern.

When a new government is elected, it typically finds itself with fewer members of finds itself with fewer members of Then the opposition. The present government has found itself in this position since the election. They came to office with many fewer members to this house then the conservative opposition. After one year in office, Labour still are some 75 fewer members than the Conservatives. There remains a gap. If it was not for the Hereditary Peers Bill, we would be approaching the house of 900 by the end of this Parliament.

What do noble Lords think would follow if there was further political upheaval at the next election? We would not be able to maintain the house's house -- House's size. Additionally, a fair distribution of new appointments is also crucial, reflecting changing political dynamics while preventing prime ministers from packing their benches. This amendment focuses on the first issue. Preventing any reduction in the house 's size, including the -- including because of this bill. The second issue is a fair distribution of new appointments.

I appreciate the support of the noble Baroness and noble Lords for helping me with this amendment and further advice during discussions. The first part of the amendment proposes that once the bill becomes law at the end of this session, the number of life your appointments should be limited to the number of life your departures until the next general election. This one in one out for Life Peers aims to give the government the opportunity to achieve broad parity with the Conservative opposition, as advocated by the Leader.

It provides ample opportunity without increasing the House's size. Moreover, since I -- each life peer appointment replaces one departure, it doesn't change the size following the You could also get underway before the general election. The second part of the amendment aims to reduce the number of members below the size of the Commons. To achieve this, it proposes a two out, one in mechanism. If this house has more members in the comments, as was recommended by the Lord Speaker recommended by the Lord Speaker possible committee which I chaired, the duration will depend on the details of any retirement and participation changes introduced in participation changes introduced in the meantime.

And the third part ensures that once the house's size equals that of the comments, the number of appointments should be constrained to prevent membership levels from rising again. The amendment therefore suggests a long-term commitment to appointments being restricted to no higher than the number of departures. We need to end the process of leapfrogging. I've argued this on many occasions in these debates. Normal practice should be that appointment I only made to fill the gaps left by levers as in any other parliamentary chamber in the world.

To avoid the destabilising behaviour from the past and creep from both sides of the house, we need sensible rules and conventions about the overall balance of appointments and departures and a fair sharing of appointments between the two parties. My purpose is basically to persuade the house that limiting appointments to the number of departures would be a key principle in maintaining this house no larger than the Commons for the longer term. I also hope that the Noble Baronesses the Leader of the House recognises that this should be an integral part of discussions of the proposed Select Committee.

If the measures are successful in reducing the house's size, it is crucial that they are not offset by a surge in appointments. This amendment will prevent that from happening and I look forward to her response was the victim.
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Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
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Amendment proposed, after close one, insert the new clause is printed on the Marshalled List. 23 moved by Lord Burns will stop when this country is confronted with a controversial issue, it frequently turns to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, for an answer. Those of us with long memories recall the enquiry into hunting with dogs in 1999 and the commission on Freedom of information 2015. No sooner was that completed, then we had the Burns Commission and 26.

That followed a debate when the house agreed on December 5, 2016, without a division, that it size should be reduced and methods should be explored which this should be achieved. The Burns Report recommended the house 's size should be reduced to that of the Commons. The target should be achieved over time by a two out, one in a row. New appointments should reflect results appointments should reflect results of the last election. The report was welcomed by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee in the other place.

We debated it on December 19, 2017, and 72 noble Lords spoke out and there was general approval. One day after the debate, one of the noble Lord said this. " The question asked myself, that members of the committee as themselves is whether we should wait to make any progress on these other issues until we have a slot for legislation. We should try to put together a system that can be worked on on a non- legislative basis. But with legislation -- but which legislation? Because --".

The house is now bigger than it was then. Not because noble Lords haven't risen to the challenge by retiring or indeed dying but because with the exception of Baroness May, appointments have been -- prime ministers have been overgenerous with their appointments. We are left with the other option of legislation. That is now for us. Winding up the debate, that then spokesman Lord Tyler confirmed his party's support for legislation of the voluntary -- if the voluntary scheme failed.

He said this. " Unless the Minister is willing to abide by this constraint, we might as well give up now. Without a statutory scheme, ak successes cannot be held up either.." The leader said this. She went on to say " I do not consider that they are there is one insurmountable issue. The role of the Prime Minister and of the government. This will work only if the government play their part. It is not about giving up patronage appointments but about showing some restraint." Since then, there has been no restraint.

She concluded, " We will take this forward. I noted that a number of noble Lords quoted from songs in place. I will quote Elvis Presley when he sang " It's now or never". Clearly then, it wasn't now. Nought needed to be never. -- Not. We should support amendment 23. We might never get the opportunity again.
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Baroness Hayman Portrait Baroness Hayman (Crossbench)
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I rise to speak briefly in support of this amendment to which I have added my name. The noble Lord, Lord Burns, has come up with an elegant formulation, as he did seven years ago in the Committee that he chaired. For a way out of the conundrum that we have, we choose that however good our provisions are in terms of people leaving the House, if we do not have any constraint, any guardrails at all about people coming in to the house.

When we have a general election, when there is a majority, we will always see a large intake of members. There is every possibility that we will see it again in the future. So, I think it is tremendously important that we try and take some steps now. And the size of the house overall does matter. I'm delighted that the noble Lord is in his place now. I am also delighted that he obviously has become deeply affectionate and committed to the work of this House.

But one thing that he said in his speech. I disagreed with most of it come actually. One thing he said that was incorrect was that the house was in danger of being bullied by those outside into thinking it was too big and had to change. That is not the situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, just said, this house has repeatedly recognised the need for it not to grow exponentially. It has repeatedly recognised the danger of it being larger than the House of Commons.

And I have to say to the noble Lord that it is perfectly possible other second chambers across the world managed to find the right combination of experts, expertise and experience, without rising in their numbers overall to pretty near four figures which is the direction we are going in. I suppose my view to those who say, " Doesn't matter, look at the average attendance figures. It doesn't matter if people are claiming allowances.

None of this matters." I spent five years as the Lord Speaker and in those five years, I made I don't know how many speeches about the House of Lords. And actually, the thing that most people knew about the House of Lords people knew about the House of Lords was not that it was brilliant. Not that it had fantastic Select that it had fantastic Select Committees. But it was only the Chinese representative council that had more members on it.

That issue of reputation should not be the only issue that drives us. We should recognise that we need a house that is peopled with enough members to do the job we ask it to do. But we don't have to have a single expert on every single issue in the world. We have several committees who can call -- who we can call for evidence. We need the house of a reasonable size and I would suggest that it should be lower than the house of commons, or no higher than the House of Commons.

Others have suggested much smaller houses. They look across the world and say that other people manage with us. I believe in the fact that it is a part-time house -- as a part-time house, we do need larger numbers because not everyone is here all the because not everyone is here all the

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Many of our members on tearful time. Rightly castigated by the Leader

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Rightly castigated by the Leader of the House because I didn't mean what I actually said about being a what I actually said about being a part-time house, I meant we are house that does not have members who house that does not have members who are expected to be full-time in performing their parliamentary performing their parliamentary duties. I very much believe that the elegant solution that Lord Burns has elegant solution that Lord Burns has put before us is the right way forward.

But with other, alongside other issues we have debated in the course of this narrow bill, these course of this narrow bill, these are very wide and important issues. are very wide and important issues. I recognise that the noble Lady the I recognise that the noble Lady the leader of the wants to use her phrase -- Leader of the House, to take this in bite-size chunks and I very well -- much welcome the very well -- much welcome the setting up of the Select Committee.

But I do think it is incumbent on all of us to recognise that with the effect of this bill which will reduce numbers and the membership of the House, the effects of anything that is done whether it is 10% attendance, five% or 20%, with anything that is done on retirement, whether that is done by age or by term limits, we will be reducing the size of the. That is an opportunity, an opportunity to get down to the size that is rational and that is defensible, while at the same time putting right the imbalance that currently exists between the opposition and the government party in terms of their party political representation.

That is a big opportunity. But it will be an opportunity that is short lived if we don't take on the responsibility of looking to the future and how we stop ourselves getting into this situation again. Whether that is by the unbridled use of the prerogative by a Prime Minister or because of the electoral effect of a big change and a single general election. I think it is incumbent on us to take that into account when we look at those other two measures that the noble Lady has suggested, the Select Committee considers, because they will have an impact on the Size of the House and that impact should not be short-term, it should be enduring.

I think we saw that the very principled and welcome attitude of the noble Baroness Lady May had a short-term effect, but it didn't last because it could simply be reversed by the next incumbent. We need some guardrails and I hope that the Select Committee if the House does not decide tonight to adopt the detail of this amendment, that the Select Committee will look at the issue in some detail.

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I rise to briefly support Lord
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Viscount Thurso Portrait Viscount Thurso (Liberal Democrat)
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Burns having added my name to this. I thought Lord Young of Cookham expressed perfectly my views and therefore I'm not going to rehearse them again. I listened at an earlier To Lord Gove who expressed a view which, if taken to its logical conclusion, would mean that you could go on putting people into the House more or less as long as you like. There has to be a limit at some point, we do not want a house of thousand 1,500 or 2,000 therefore at some point has to be a mechanism that puts some break on such that what goes out and what comes in our imbalance.

The problem as Lord Burns set out so well in introducing his amendment is that each incoming government finds itself at a disadvantage as an opposition to what has gone before. Therefore has to do something if it is to come remotely close to getting its business to restore that imbalance. I therefore think that tackling the Size of the House is one of the most important things we can do. I would make one small, it's not a quibble it's a suggestion to Lord Burns, I might have left out one in his amendment which is what's happening over this Parliament which will not, as a surprise since my previous amendment sought to put it into the next Parliament because I do think it would be rather unfair as I said at that debate if we were to change the rules as it were at half-time.

I think the current government deserves to have a reasonable number of peers but that simply underlines the necessity of having the the necessity of having the guardrails in place to ensure that going forward the House cannot go beyond a certain size and it should be reduced and something like the size of the Commons is broadly appropriate. I don't know whether the noble Lord wishes to presses amendment if you did I would happily support him but I said -- suspect likely he will take a more pragmatic decision in which case I would very much hope Select Committee will be able to do its job, although my doubts previously expressed that it will not be able to do enough remain.



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I want to add briefly one argument in support of my noble
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Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (Crossbench)
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Is quite clear that legislation is needed if we are to control people coming into the House and I support very much the line of thinking that Lord Burns has outlined. There is just one point that troubles me, perhaps I can do to mention it. When this government came in, the Prime Minister made a number of appointments strengthen the Frontbench of the party which was obviously going to have to deal with ministerial issues and represent the government at there is stages in both legislation and also debates.

It did strike me that the appointment which were made, I'm not going to mention names, were well chosen and the Frontbench was strengthened to the advantage of the House. The reason I say this is I think there's a great force in the point that Lord Burns is making that we need to discuss this in more detail. I am very much in support of the principal which lies behind it and I did my very best as Lord Newby did in his case to make it work and it was of course ultimately the Prime Minister's patron edge that made it impossible to continue to make it work that is the real issue we have to deal with and that brings me right back to the flexibility to strengthen the Frontbench I'm not talking about broad appointments, but is it right that the Prime Minister would not be able to appoint somebody from outside with his particular expertise to enable the Frontbench to perform its function to the best of its ability? I mention this simply as a point towards the point which I think Lord Burns is making that this really does deserve discussion and it will be very helpful since all these issues are intertwined, if the Select Committee could discuss it as

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well. Much appreciated, when we
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Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
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I rise to support the amendment may feel it's only fair to Lord Burns he was smiling because I have lobbied him as I think most opportunities when I bumped into him in the corridors about this issue. Whatever might be said about the number of peers who have been appointed and it's very difficult, you feel rather impolite once you been accepted into your Lordships house, we have never thankfully had the situation where the constitutional convention has been busted that the government has the largest group but not an overall majority in this House.

All of us here I think are believers in the parliamentary democratic system, but if we were to have people involved in politics and perhaps empower he didn't agree with that convention that is unwritten, we would be in the situation where the Prime Minister of the day could within a few weeks of coming into office appoint hundreds of peers, placing of course the House of Lords Appointments Commission and potentially even the monarch in an unusual situation. Therefore we would have a situation where the executive would be in charge obviously not only having a majority in the Commons, but a commanding majority in the Lords.

We have never had that situation before course of having a Prime Minister he doesn't feel bound by that convention.

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I'm grateful to the noble Lady

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I'm grateful to the noble Lady but can I ask this. The most important reform that ever took place in the House of Lords was place in the House of Lords was caused by the threat of the liberal government to create hundreds of government to create hundreds of peers. They had that right and they peers. They had that right and they knew they had that right the king agreed that they had that right, and if they hadn't had that right they if they hadn't had that right they would not have been able to bring in 1911 act.

Does the noble Lady think that therefore nothing like that that therefore nothing like that

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should ever be repeated again? We are now in the situation where

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We are now in the situation where we have the Parliament act and I was just moving onto that point, that of course any Prime Minister of the day could reform make the situation a could reform make the situation a unicameral situation, but that of course would require the Parliament that that would be a delay of a couple of years and we all know in couple of years and we all know in politics how important it is to take your time sometimes when you are doing particularly constitutional doing particularly constitutional change.

I think it's more analogous now to the situation that happened now to the situation that happened in 2010 in Hungary. Hungary set up its constitution with obviously a president but also a unicameral situation with a two thirds majority to change the constitution, never envisaging that one party would last that majority which happened, and subsequently the EU does not fully regard hungry any more as a democracy. It would be such a shame in fact it would be I try not to use melodramatic language but it would be such a tragedy if the mother of Parliaments and sup in the situation of having what is described now in Hungary that you govern by law, the executive just brings us legislation to Parliament and just rubberstamped it.

I do think to Lady Hayman this really matters, that we as a Parliament at a time when we thankfully for very sad reasons have primary legislation, might not be looking at the main thing that we need to ensure so I fully support the noble Lords amendments.
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Lord Gove Portrait Lord Gove (Conservative)
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I feel compelled to rise again on the principle that there is no argument so implacable that it does not deserve to have at least one voice raised in opposition, it seems to be the case that amongst your Lordships house there is a consensus that the House is too large and that a variety of measures should be introduced, new guillotines in order to ensure that the numbers are limited. I think that the arguments put forward in good faith by many wiser figures than me deserve to be opposed.

In one of the reasons why think it's vital that we oppose them and I suspect following on from Lord Young's point about Elvis Presley I suspect I will find myself Lonesome tonight in making this case is that the arguments advanced so far seem to be not to stand up effectively to About the sometimes foolish use of the Royal prerogative by prime ministers who appoint people to this House you may be ill qualified all may bring it into disrepute. I won't mention any names or speculate on whom he might be thinking off but if it's the case the Prime Minister act in such a way the sanction of general election, the sanction of democracy punishing that prime ministers it punishes any prior Minister for any act of folly is the appropriate way of checking any misuse of power in any way in which the executive is not behaving in a manner consistent with the dignity of its office or with the public will.

Secondly the argument is made that what we really need to do is ensure that the House meets an arbitrary size that size depends on the size of the other place, 600, But there is no accolade from first principles about what should efficient size of this chamber would be and that every committee staff, every argument is certain every voice is valued. My view has been that every House and institution. It's not the size that matters, it's what you do with it.

And the critical thing that matters is that this House has shown to be vigorous and welcoming debate, energetic and challenging legislation, determined in assuring a variety of voices are raised and to control the numbers arbitrarily and hope we can win approval is in my view a pre-emptive cringe. What this House should be doing is defending itself on the quality of the arguments made, the contributions it makes to improving legislation and the way in which it enhances scrutiny of what the executive does and the way in which debate overall is improved.

And Sibley arguing about the numbers here is displacement activity. And it is unfortunately surrendering to those people whose ultimate aim is not to improve this House but either to neuter it all off into oblivion. And that takes me to my third point, a point which in a way is a tribute to Lord Hope of crates -- crates had to Lord Hope of crates -- crates had worked. While we are principally here to scrutinise the executive, we have to recognise as a vital role to play.

One of the good things this Government has done is appoint distinguished figures from outside like Lord Timpson or Lord Vallance to the Frontbench. Previous governments appointed people like Lord Hill, Lord Nash, and Lord Agnew to the Frontbench. Are we really saying that a future Prime Minister should not be able to appoint a distinguished individual from outside to the ministerial position until someone had gone? That is the logic of this legislation. It would mean that the Noble Lord Lord Hermer couldn't have been appointed Attorney-General until someone else had been fired from the ranks of Labour members.

I may disagree with the Noble Lord, but this House is undoubtedly enhanced by his presence. This legislation would effectively act as a turnstile, preventing him entering until someone else had departed.
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Lord Gove Portrait Lord Gove (Conservative)
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I thank the Lord for his intervention, but I don't believe that if we reduce the size of this House in order to meet the criticisms of some that the fundamental opposition of many to the operation of this House would diminish, but more importantly I think that the principal criticism that can be directed to any legislature is not its size but its effectiveness operates to ensure that new laws are properly scrutinised and the more voices capable of being deployed in that debate and the more arguments made effectively the better.

And that makes my final point, I don't believe it's ever been the case that there has ever been a recorded set of votes in this House where when you add the division's content and not content that they have ever been higher than the full composition of the other place. This House is flexible. Our constitution is flexible. These attempts to impose external rigidities to meet some rationalist view of what we should be doing is an utterly mistaken cause to go down and urge your Lordships to reject it.



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That last point, quit about some Charter 88 rational view of the size Charter 88 rational view of the size of the House, I think if you read of the House, I think if you read the report, and just learned how much thought went into choosing that size as providing enough person power to do exactly the jobs that he has discussed, to which I am as has discussed, to which I am as committed as he is. And I believe committed as he is.

And I believe that the size of the House and the view outside it is not in itself the important thing. But it stands in the way of appreciation of what the the way of appreciation of what the House actually does, and that it is not defensible to those who have not studied in any detail.

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studied in any detail. Given our I thought it would be helpful to remind Noble Lords this is report stage and that any interventions need to be sure to please.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

please. I like to thank Lord Burns for his amendment and the way he his amendment and the way he introduced it. He races for very substantial issues, much more substantial by most of the issues we spent the day debating. First it should there be a maximum size of the House, how do we get there, how do we then stop recidivist governments from breaching it? And once we got there, how do we balance the new appointments between the various parties? So the first question and the third question I think are very straightforward in my view.

Yes, there should be a limit. Yes it will mean that no Prime Minister can then threaten to flood the House with 100 new peers, but the last time that was tried was over 110 years ago, and it's not proved to be a necessary part of public policy-making in the interim. Secondly, as the Noble Lord Lord Gove right when he says the more voices the better? Clearly there is a point at which that ceases to be the case, and what we are arguing about is where they should be.

If you are 5,000 people here, there would clearly be two new voices. We wouldn't be able to do anything. And those of us who spent many many hours debating here, including everybody who has been included in Lord Burns amendment has formed the view that the place would be better if it had a cap upon its numbers. So I think yes, there should be a cap on the numbers. I think it should be a legislative cap and if you have that, that solves the problem about how you stop future Prime Minister's ratcheting up the numbers again.

They won't be allowed to do it by
21:24
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