Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, if he will make a statement on the Jaguar Land Rover cyber attack and assistance to businesses to help protect them from cyber attacks

We We now We now come We now come to We now come to the We now come to the urgent We now come to the urgent question.

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To ask the Secretary of State for business and trade to make a business and trade to make a statement on Jaguar Land Rover and

12:39

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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the cyber attack and what protection will be given to businesses to help protect them. I start by saying I fully recognise the anxiety and deep concern that employees will be feeling at Jaguar Land Rover and across the supply chain. The government and the National Cyber Security Centre will do everything in our power to resolve this as soon On a daily basis to understand the challenges they and customers are facing and I will have a further meeting with the chief executive officer later this week.

Local MPs have been invited to a question and answer session this Friday by the company. The NCSC has been working with them since is ready to provide support. I am sorry there is a limit to what I can say with relation to specifics because they do not want to prejudice the ongoing investigations. UK cyber security is a key priority for government, crucial to protecting the public and our way of life and the successful growing economy. We have been taking significant action to protect businesses against cyber attacks, reducing cyber risk across the economy by making technology more secure by design, including the Product Security Act of 2022, introduced by the previous government, which requires security to be built in to the infrastructure and the Software Security Code of Practice which sets out how ventures should make software more secure and the AI Cyber Security Practice which sets out how AI system should be designed and operated securely.

We are providing businesses with the tools and support to protect themselves from cyber threats, including the Cyber Governance Code of Practice which shows how to manage digital risks to organisations and the Cyber Essential Scheme, to prevent attacks and reduce incidents by 92% and a wide range of tools and support from the Cyber Security Centre which includes tools to check cyber security and pest IT systems for vulnerability and an early warning system to get indicated about threats to the network and Diageo businesses to take up these tools and improve cyber defences.

It's not for me to announce future business to the house but the government will introduce the Cyber Security and Resilience Bill to raise standards in infrastructure standards such as energy, water, the NHS. I'm grateful to you for granting the urgent question and we know how important Jaguar Land Rover is as an employer in the North-West. This cyber attack caused a disruption to seals and staff have been instructed to stay

12:43

Derek Twigg MP (Widnes and Halewood, Labour)

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at home. In my constituency, many at home. In my constituency, many have been unable to operate and systems were shut down in response to the attack and dealerships had to the attack and dealerships had been unable to sell cars and vehicles have been unable to order vehicles have been unable to order parts that they needed. The JLR in parts that they needed. The JLR in my constituency is a very important my constituency is a very important employer and many of people have been affected with thousands of jobs in the supply chain effective.

Despite the cyber attack happening Despite the cyber attack happening just over a week ago to one of our most important businesses with over 33,000 direct employees and part of 33,000 direct employees and part of a huge supply chain, and disappointed no action has been disappointed no action has been taken to help deal with the attacks. The latest attack raises wider issues for companies like Marks & Spencer is and one would like to Spencer is and one would like to believe all companies review cyber believe all companies review cyber security after the M&S attack but if the attacks continue, there will be an ongoing and more serious effect on the economy.

What else is the government doing? I have had with the Minister has said today but it's a matter of national security. Is there an underlying weakness in business in dealing with cyber security? We heard from the former head of the National Cyber Security Centre this morning who suggested companies may be focused more on customer data at the expense of security operations. I believe this House is to do more in coming months and look at what the government is doing to work with business to prevent these attacks been

12:45

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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successful. They are a threat to the economy and national security. I commend my honourable friend on securing, seeking this urgent securing, seeking this urgent question and you for granting it, Mr Speaker. He makes the point that not Speaker. He makes the point that not only is Jaguar Land Rover an iconic and important national brand but and important national brand but also a significant employer with some 34,000 people in the UK and some 34,000 people in the UK and 39,000 around the world and also in my honourable friend's constituency.

my honourable friend's constituency. Please write, we must ensure cyber communication -- he is right to say cyber security must be taken very seriously and, in my previous role, I was conscious of the attack on the British Library,, which is one of British Library,, which is one of the most significant financially and the most significant financially and it did point to some of the other issues arising across the economy issues arising across the economy and that is why we are very keen to bring forward the measures, as we stated in the King's Speech, and we stated in the King's Speech, and we will have a bill on this and I think will have a bill on this and I think I can get away with using the word 'is in' and we will introduce the bill soon and it will be no more and certainly no less.

He is right, there are serious issues which must be addressed across the whole economy to get that right. He pointed to one person and I point to another, Richard Hall, the CEO of the National Cyber Security Centre who stressed the UK is facing increased hostility in cyberspace. We cannot afford any degree of complacency in this. Major criminals are operating in this space and malicious state actors and some 40% of companies in the UK last year reported they had faced some kind of cyber attacks so it is important and cyber attacks so it is important and

12:46

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Can I congratulate the honourable gentleman on securing this question and welcome the Minister to his new role. I will never be able to rival him in terms of his literary quotations but I do think this cyber attack lunch I land Rover is concerning, it is a world leading business and the impact on their business, suppliers, workers has been significant. I hope the Whole House agrees that we must use the full force of the state to crack down on cybercriminals.

Can the Minister, I appreciate years , can , can he , can he inform , can he inform us , can he inform us when , can he inform us when the government and National's were informed of the attack? What kind of support of the government and law- enforcement agencies able to offer Jaguar Land Rover? Is there any assessment of how much longer the government expects this disruption to continue? It is really impacting the supply of vehicles. This attack is just another in a series of attacks that have taken place against British brands, iconic institutions, 40 percent of our businesses, including the attack earlier this year against Marks & Spencer's.

How is the government acting to prevent future attacks? Can he elaborate on that? Has he identified who is responsible for this attack as Mike can he rule out this being a state-sponsored attack? If the group responsible for the two attacks on Jaguar Land Rover and Marks & Spencer's are linked, what Marks & Spencer's are linked, what progress have law enforcement agencies made on pursuing them? Thank you. Thank you.

12:47

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I'm not sure whether the shadow Minister is in a new role? She is not. I will not welcome her to her new role, but I welcome her to the despatch box nonetheless, she has asked a series of questions, I will try to answer the ones I as precisely as possible, she asked when they were notified I'd engage, they have been engaged since last Wednesday and we do have an undertaking that when people do get in touch with the end CNC, the response will be immediate.

She asked what engagement there is from government, the primary engagement is through the NCSC, they are fully engaged and devoted team to the work there. It is also in public domain that the Information Commissioner's Office were notified, not because jail are certain there has been a data breach, but they want to make sure they have dotted every I and crossed every team to -- dotted every T, that is why they wanted to make sure the information commissioner's office was involved.

This is a live situation, it has been ongoing for a week and I note been ongoing for a week and I note the comments that jail are happy making, there is a Q&A session for MPs on Friday morning when they hope they may be able to provide more information. One of the issues she asked was about what else we are doing, one of the things we did this summer was the Home Office did a consultation on our policy on run somewhere.

I'm not saying that is specifically in relation to this case, we do not know whether it is. I am not coming to any conclusions, it was heartening to see the resolute support there was from companies across the UK on our policies on run somewhere. -- Run somewhere. I do not want to answer questions and impede the investigation. She asked if it was state-sponsored, I do not want to jump to conclusions. I can never confirm or deny anything. She asked whether this case was linked with that of M&S.

I cannot answer that question as fulsomely as I would like to, I do not know and I do not think anyone has come to secure decisions on that. In one sense, all cyber-attacks are linked in that it is the same problem, which is a relatively new problem, although previous government was seeking to tackle it and we are seeking to tackle it in broadly the same way. Some of the techniques used are old-fashioned, like ringing up helplines. Helplines are designed to be helpful.

That's the same as when News of the World were ringing up trying to get pins from mobile phone companies to hack other people's phones. That's an old technique, sometimes they use AI-generated voices which are remarkably accurate and can lead to even further problems. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but I'm saying that some of the patterns of what are around are across the whole of the sector.

12:51

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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Congratulations to my honourable friend for securing this urgent question and I welcome the Minister in his role. This is an extraordinarily serious issue. The committee will take recommendations on tackling crimes like this shortly. Many companies alike Jaguar Land Rover phase threats like this -- face threats like this in the -- face threats like this in the future. There will be need for new laws to clear up legacy infrastructure that will not be good enough for things like this.

When we said we would cleanup for Marks & Spencer's in the wake of the cyber attack, we were given the impression that more could have been done by agencies to help Marks & Spencer's. Can I asked the Minister for's reassurance that all of the lessons from the way the M&S case were handled have been learnt and the state will bend over backwards to make sure that JL has every assistance it needs to get back up assistance it needs to get back up and running and prosecute the guilty?

12:52

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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The most important thing we can do is make sure we do prosecute the guilty. It is when people are sent to prison, the person in the US he was sent down for 10 years recently as part of the networks, that was important. I should say that whilst I am a Minister in the Department for Business and Trade, my honourable friend for Barnsley North and my honourable friend sitting here on the Front Bench from DSIT, the member for the Vale of Glamorgan are actively engaged in all of these discussions as well.

We need to make sure it is a cross government approach. I look forward to what we will hear from his Select Committee and I was intrigued by what he was saying about investment incentives and I hope he may come up with some clever idea we may be able to put into practice once he has produced his report. The main point he makes is have we learnt all of the lessons from M and S? I certainly think we have. I have read the evidence from the committee, I hope that Marks & Spencer's have also learned the positions he laid bare.

I would hesitate in trying to make a connection between one case and another case, I do not want to prejudge what has happened in these particular set of circumstances. particular set of circumstances.

12:54

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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Can I welcome the Minister to his new role. There have been a spate of cyber-attacks on very important UK companies such as Jaguar Land Rover, supermarket and legal aid, what is the government doing to restore public trust? Does he think the public trust? Does he think the attackers come from overseas?

12:55

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Overseas is a slightly different question from state actors, but again, I'm not going to prejudge the investigation and he knows I'm not going to do that, I can tell, because he is smiling. He referred to UK companies, I think if I were speak to any counterparts in Europe almost countries in the world, they will be going through exacting the same issue. Qantas, Andorra, Adidas, Chanel, these are all companies that have had major attacks in the last number of months.

This is simply a part of modern business, unfortunately. It is a despicable practice, it is a set of criminal actions. We need to prosecute those who are responsible and make sure they go to jail for a very long time so we can protect our industry in the UK and cooperate with other international agencies to make sure we do the same around the world.

12:56

Rt Hon Maria Eagle MP (Liverpool Garston, Labour)

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I would like to congratulate my honourable friend for obtaining the urgent question, I used to represent the area until boundary changes, hundreds of my constituents work at the plant, many more bite supplier the plant, many more bite supplier companies, they -- by supplier companies. Worldwide shutdown is costing £72 million a day in lost sales, well local MPs have had -- while local MPs have had no meaningful information. Although we do have 30 minute zoom call on Friday.

What can we do to ensure this disaster is brought to a close as soon as possible? The attacks threaten our economy and national security. What help can he offer the company and my constituents at this worrying time? Things do not seem to be getting any better. be getting any better.

12:57

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Can I be tribute to my right honourable friend for all the work that she indicted together, in particular in the space area in my old job and her old job. She was an excellent Minister to be able to do business with. I slightly for having her on the backbenches because she is a very redoubtable person to be enquired about. There are many suppliers who are in an even more complex situation than Jaguar Land Rover. I undertake that I will try to coordinate the activity we are doing in our department to make sure we can provide support to them.

I note the tone in which she said we are getting a half-hour zoom call on Friday, I will try to make sure all MPs get the absolute support that they need so they can do the job of reassuring their constituents. I made this point earlier today to jail are. I am intending to have a meeting with the Chief Executive later this week, I hope that we will later this week, I hope that we will want to upkeep MPs in constituencies or the Whole House updated.

12:58

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Congratulations on surviving the reshuffle, we would miss it if he is gone. Can I ask a general question about the public sector? Can I ask a serious question about the public sector, I'm an enthusiast about the idea of a national digital ID card as a means of countering legal working, but it raises a new spectre if tens of millions of people have an ID card on their mobile phone in their pocket and there are malign forces he would seek to attackers.

What work is the government doing in its bill, in the national security its bill, in the national security centre, to try to get this right?

12:59

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Is right. On two points, I would say, just to take is quite a bit further, data is a wonderful thing, it is a goldmine in many ways, but also a potential vulnerability. We need to make sure that if we are going to take people into a digital future with digital ID cards, I'm not saying we are, but if we were to go down that route, or a digital driving licences for example, we driving licences for example, we need to make sure it is safe, secure and people's data is not imperilled.

I do not know what he meant about me I do not know what he meant about me surviving, I love him too. surviving, I love him too.

13:00

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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I would like to warmly welcome the Minister to his place, in light of the cyber breaches survey in April 2025 that reported that 43 percent of businesses and 30 percent of charities experienced a cyber attack last year, what steps is he taking to strengthen national cyber security and will he outline how the government is working with businesses and charities to improve prevention and ensure better sharing prevention and ensure better sharing intelligence is a matter of national security? security?

13:00

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I'm grateful to the member of the Select Committee who I will be before next week, I think, for her question. On the issue around somewhere, one of the questions is whether we generally know the full extent of what is going on in the UK. That is why we have suggested they should be mandatory reporting. It was interesting that more than 70 percent of businesses in the UK agreed with the consultation that Home Office produced in the summer. There are further measures I hope we will be able to introduce when the bill comes forward and I have already referred to some of the means of providing support to businesses up and down the land but I am happy if she wants to grab me I am happy if she wants to grab me I am happy if she wants to grab me

13:01

Mr Joshua Reynolds MP (Maidenhead, Liberal Democrat)

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January a -- Jaguar Land Rover is not the first company to experience cyber attacks and the Minister has said he will work with companies and so can be sure there is a two-way dialogue between the minister and dialogue between the minister and companies like Jaguar Land Rover?

13:01

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I have spoken to them myself and I intend to have a further meeting with the chief executive later in the week. He is departing in November, of course. We want to make sure it is dealt with. There are two of us from the Department and new ministers and we are determined, it is our job to ensure business can flourish in the country because, in the end, business largely pays the bills to keep the lights on, the NHS functioning, to keep everything functioning, to keep everything going.

That is why we are determined to have a strong working relationship with businesses and this is one area where we have got to do that.

13:02

Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)

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We have heard how white the impact of the cyber attack has been impact of the cyber attack has been across the economy. He gave evidence to the Joint Committee on National Security Strategy in his previous role and talked about his confidence about the robust contingency plans in place and he said that when it came to national and infrastructure he had confidence. Does he have the same confidence about cyber attacks? same confidence about cyber attacks?

13:03

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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The context in which my honourable friend is talking was in relation to sub sea cables and I think we have a robust system in place and there was another repair in the summer months and it took place within days and we are one of the best countries in the world at repairing sub sea cables but we are one of the more vulnerable ones because we are an island legend. I assure him -- island nation. I assure him that I am working with the security minister to apply the same diligence and exhibit the same same diligence and exhibit the same lack of complacency with this issue as we did with the sub sea cables.

13:03

Rt Hon Sir Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)

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Thanks to the honourable

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Thanks to the honourable gentleman for seeking and securing the urgent question. It is good to see the Minister in his place following the reshuffle with his typical demeanour. We are extremely typical demeanour. We are extremely concerned about this in my concerned about this in my constituency and he mentioned WH Plastics, based on my constituency. Plastics, based on my constituency. I spoke to the chief executive yesterday and he has some 3000 employees at eight plants with the employees at eight plants with the vast majority of their business going to Jaguar Land Rover.

Throughout the West Midlands, he will now the supply chain is probably more than 2000 people in probably more than 2000 people in terms of those affected and all of the factories have been shut down. I the factories have been shut down. I will make two points to him and I support what the right honourable gentleman, the chairman of the select committee, said earlier. The select committee, said earlier. The first is a students we have full help from all relevant agencies of help from all relevant agencies of the state and that they are seriously I'm 100% involved in all of this.

Secondly, will he press for the maximum amount of transparency so businesses and staff who are being sent home in large numbers and are naturally very worried about this are reassured to the extent we can offer reassurance? can offer reassurance?

13:05

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Yes, all the agencies will be engaged to the fullest possible extent as my honourable friend, the chairman for the Select Committee, said earlier, we will bend over backwards to make sure this gets resolved as quickly as possible. I don't want to say when that will be because I simply don't know. I would be happy for him to pass on the be happy for him to pass on the seem to recall the final line of the song is, "And the wonderful thing is, I am the only one." is, I am the only one."

13:06

Mrs Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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I thank my honourable friend for securing this question and coming to the dispatch box. Jaguar Land Rover is a valued employer in Wolverhampton North-East and iconic British brand until the disruption with production and the impact on the wider supply chain has caused much concern. What action is being taken to protect businesses and taken to protect businesses and supply chains from ransomware and cyber attacks?

13:06

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I laid out in my answers some of the things the government is engaged in in terms of the NCSC and the involvement they have had since last Wednesday at your Land Rover. There are online aids which can help many companies work through how to protect themselves better and some of the things are relatively simple, some are more complex. It depends on the size of the organisation. We have consulted, as I said earlier, on the issue of ransomware. One thing that I will seem a, as we have thing that I will seem a, as we have said previously, is that paying the criminals does not get you out of the hole.

They are not to be trusted. People should be cautious. We do not recommend people paying ransomware under any circumstances and it only adds to the business model of the criminals, the criminals we want to see behind bars.

13:07

I thank him for recognising the anxiety of staff in the supply chain. Many of my constituents are affected by this and there is a factory which employs many of my constituents, will be very anxious. There is a lack of information coming through and I share the comments made by the honourable lady. Can he reassure my lady. Can he reassure my constituents that he will give the NCSC all the resources necessary to NCSC all the resources necessary to pursue the perpetrators and, given pursue the perpetrators and, given there is so much reporting of losses every day, has been any request for financial support? financial support?

13:08

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I am tempted to say it is too early to say and there will be a get out clause at the end but I want to ensure all MPs are able to have the information that they need and on a secure basis, so that they can provide the reassurance to their constituents. I am sure there will be all sorts of rumours spreading around, some of which might be very wide of the mark and I want to make sure that JLR can provide the information to everyone.

We are going into recess on Tuesday and I would be happy to have these discussions in a private setting. It is probably best if we see how we go on Friday and I think 30 minutes on Friday and I think 30 minutes will not suffice for as -- a Zoom call with JLR.

13:09

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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I thank my honourable friend for raising the question and to the Minister. Many in my constituency are affected by JLR and this is an important time for them and the Department will consider providing information directly to local MPs in addition to that engagement. This attack follows other attacks on Marks & Spencer, the NHS, the British Library, other institutions. I understand why the Minister has set out government focus on making sure companies are supported. Can he assure the House that all steps are taken to identify areas of critical national vulnerability in both the private and public sector to try to private and public sector to try to avoid some of these attacks in the first place?

13:10

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I assure my honourable friend that we will do that and I should say that I fully understand that the issue comes on the top of other issues for Jaguar Land Rover this year, not least the issue of tariffs in the USA and the Prime Minister was personally engaged in making sure that we got to a better deal sure that we got to a better deal sure that we got to a better deal with USA and that was announced at a JLR factory and I know there are redundancies which are going to be normal process and that has nothing to do with this issue, I assure him, and the way that he asks.

and the way that he asks.

13:11

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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Jaguar Land Rover is the largest employer in the West Midlands and saw every one of our constituencies are impacted by this. The attack on GLR is not the first of its kind and certainly will not be the last. Increasingly, we are seeking state actors using criminal gangs, originating from Russia, North Korea, Iran, using this as a way to get hard cash into those countries. What more can the Minister and the state do to support businesses with the robust defences required? They are fighting states and the state has to be right behind them.

13:11

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I should apologise to the right honourable gentleman and I apologise to the honourable member. One thing that all businesses can do is get a certificate for cyber essentials because that programme helps businesses to protect themselves better. I'm hesitant to jump to talking about overseas involvement but we take it seriously and we have to keep our eyes very wide open to this issue.

13:12

This is terrible news for Jaguar

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This is terrible news for Jaguar Land Rover and the supply chain and there is a publicly owned insurance there is a publicly owned insurance employer which invests in terrorism reassurance initiatives and has £2.3 reassurance initiatives and has £2.3 trillion of assets on the books.

13:13

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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High is the government considered ensuring their reach to deal with cyber incidents like this one?

13:13

Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)

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He has stumped me. I will have to write to him with the answer to that one.

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I welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities and on behalf of responsibilities and on behalf of the many JLR employs in my constituency, I welcome any steps to get them back to business as quickly as possible. People know that the Computer Misuse Act is 35 years old Computer Misuse Act is 35 years old and there are many who believe that the current provisions impede the work of cyber security professionals work of cyber security professionals almost as much, if not more, than the work of cyber criminals.

Can he the work of cyber criminals. Can he take this incident as an opportunity to look at the provisions of that

13:14

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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to look at the provisions of that act and updated as necessary to ensure cyber security measures are available to help companies with incidents just like this? Speak a marquee mix a good point about --

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He makes a good point about the

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He makes a good point about the legislation which is out of date and we stated in the King's Speech there will be a new cyber security bill

13:14

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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will be a new cyber security bill and my honourable friend is nodding and if we have not done that properly, I'm sure they will table an amendment when the bill comes in.

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I congratulate the Minister on his new role and I'm sorry I did not his new role and I'm sorry I did not have the opportunity to welcoming to the Science Select Committee when he the Science Select Committee when he was at DSIT and I look forward to welcoming and congratulating the new minister. The devastating Jaguar Land Rover cyber attack is one of a series of similar attacks which are series of similar attacks which are bringing havoc to British businesses and consumers and undermining and consumers and undermining confidence.

Can the Minister confirm my understanding that neither Jaguar my understanding that neither Jaguar Land Rover nor Marks and Spencers Land Rover nor Marks and Spencers are deemed to be providers of essential services under the existing legislation and not required to meet the highest levels required to meet the highest levels of cyber security under the current requirements? If that is the case, will that change under the new Cyber Security and Resilience Bill, which he mentioned, and, if not, how will he raise the level of cyber

13:15

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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he raise the level of cyber resilience in our industry and society with such measures? She makes a good point. There is

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She makes a good point. There is a balancing act and we don't want to overburden business with requirements but we want to make sure that they take every action to make sure they are properly detected. My understanding, and I will write to her if I am wrong, but my understanding is they are not currently required but she will have to wait for the bill and the intention for the bill is that it directly relates to things like energy, water supply, things like that.

As I said, it is a balancing act to make sure industry has the freedom to operate as it can file, at the same time, embodying the best practice. -- while. I think businesses, whether large or small, should avail themselves of the early warning tool from the NCSC when they think they have had an attack. It's important we have a real idea of the actual prevalence of this across the whole sector and we join up the dots

13:16

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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I welcome the Minister to the world of neither confirm nor deny, but I fear it may crack his style some what. Does he agree there are three categories of hacker, showoffs aiming to boost their egos in the online world, the wreckers who are usually working on behalf of hostile countries or political ideologies and the extortionists he referred to earlier who are out to blackmail people and relieve them of large amounts of money? In every case, is there always not the anxiety that people's personal data is going to be compromised and publicised? To that end, is he really satisfied that so many government services that deal with personal data, the latest being HMRC, are insisting latest being HMRC, are insisting that people go online to supply it to government?

13:17

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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He makes a good point about personal data. When I was the data Minister this is one of the things I was trying to push very strongly. There's no point trying to get people to give data if it is not secure. It is the most important part of what we have to do. If people do not trust their data will be secure, they will not surrender it. That is not just apply to government, although it is very important to government, it applies across all different sorts of companies.

I take issue with the delineation of the groups, I just think there is one, which is a bunch of criminals, their intent sometimes mixes a desire for cash and some spurious information. I just think of them all as criminals. of them all as criminals.

13:18

Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)

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I wanted to raise concerns about the impact on jobs. And the impact on reputation as a company when two iconic brands have to go off-line. I do not this will be the last attack of the year on a retailer automotive company. Going forward, there will be cars... Security and concerns about the automated features within the car, what that means for driver security. He said that the UK is a security. He said that the UK is a target, is that because we are more susceptible?

13:19

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Not just that the UK is more susceptible, every country in the world. It is a growing business. The worst thing we can do is feed the business model. The one thing I would urge caution about, it may be we do not know all of the incidents there have been. It is understandable that lots of understandable that lots of companies, if they feel they have managed to deal with the issue swiftly, would not want to make that known publicly. That is why we consulted on the issue of run somewhere earlier this summer and I was gratified by the responses we had from more than 70 percent of businesses.

13:20

David Chadwick MP (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, Liberal Democrat)

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Fundamentally, this is a question about resilience across British industry. These attacks are costing British industries millions of pounds a day. What is the government doing to facilitate knowledge sharing within industry to boost resilience and guard against operational technology attacks? I know people in the cyber industries like to share information together but require the forum to do so. but require the forum to do so.

13:20

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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He is right. For that matter, I suspect every single member of the House will have had some kind of attempted cyber attack, whether some kind of phishing on their mobile phones, something that comes up that looks remarkably possible and then you go to yourself, 'oh no, HMRC probably would not as me to do that.' I would urge all members to take their own cyber-security personally. The House provide securities for that. There is one other thing we can do, all companies can follow the cyber governance code of practice and provide training.

The more board members that understand these issues, the better.

13:21

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Can I welcome the Minister to his role? In a previous Parliament, I inadvertently implied he was not a national treasure, I would like to set the record straight on that one. Businesses in my constituency are reliant on the internet., Trade and HR services. What reassurances and advice can the Minister give charities and businesses in Harlow if they are worried they may be the if they are worried they may be the next victims of such attacks?

13:22

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I think every organisation in the country should be considering whether they might be the next under attack. It is possible there may have already been an attempted attack. Iconic brands like Marks & Spencer's and Jaguar Land Rover are possible candidates in that respect. But I would urge all organisations to take the issue seriously because the costs are very dramatic in terms of finances and also in terms of staff power. staff power.

13:22

Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Cyber-security costs for any company are rarely taken into account. For a company like GLR, it should be easily absorbed because of profit margins. -- Jaguar Land Rover. SMEs cannot do this, their profit margins will not take that. These are the businesses the government should be assisting to ensure there security is industry standard and secure. Can you give me an update on that? an update on that?

13:23

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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You're right, it is not just about big companies, listed companies or big organisations in the public sphere, it is also about much smaller ones, which may have all sorts of different attacks. I'm not sure whether she is asking for financial support. She is. I saw the nod. I am not sure how Hansard records and not other than the fact I have now said it. The important point here is making sure everyone has an understanding that cyber- security is important to every single organisation, big or small, and services of the state are there

13:24

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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The Minister talks about a cross government approach, last week, the Ministry of Defence stood up the cyber and specialist operations command, building on the foundations of strategic command and bringing together over 26,000 specialists. Can the Minister comment on what collaboration exists between officials at the Department for Business and Trade and those working in this area at the MoD?

13:24

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Our primary relationship is between ourselves, because we have responsibility for businesses are making sure they can prosper into the future with DSIT, as represented by my honourable friend, and the Security Minister in the Home Office. He makes a good point, the MoD have an equal responsibility for making sure we are secure. I'm sure some kind of digital identification service will be available for service will be available for identifying the right MP to call. identifying the right MP to call.

13:25

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I am pleased to see him in a senior position, it is well earned and we are pleased to see him where he is. He will be aware of cyber- attacks on Marks & Spencer's and others have left people concerned about the security of their information online. These attacks are not Jaguar will heighten these concerns. My constituents have told me that, those concerned about the ramifications of a cyber attack on government systems, particularly in health. What discussions have been heard about the robustness of cyber defence? And what can be shared with cyber businesses to help them defend themselves? themselves?

13:25

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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The first big one of these was on the British library, and Arms Length Body of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Some of these lessons were taught immediately to government. Need to make sure that across every government department, not only is personal data and all other kinds of data secure where it needs to be, if it is not open source, we need to make sure that cyber-attacks can be rebuffed, spotted, can be prevented at all costs. That is an ongoing piece of work between the different parts of government.

I hope that when we bring forward the cyber bill in the near future, soon, we will be able to address some of these things and bring them to the round in the

13:26

Ten Minute Rule Motion: Disposable Barbecues (Prohibition of Use in Public Places)

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The clerk will read the orders of the -- orders of the day. British -- Diego Garcia military base.

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Diego Garcia military base. I beg to move the bill be read a second time. On 22 May, the Prime

13:27

Legislation: Diego Garcia Military Base and British Indian Ocean Territory Bill: Second Reading

second time. On 22 May, the Prime Minister signed a landmark treaty with the Republic of Mauritius, this guarantees the continued UK guarantees the continued UK operational control of Diego Garcia operational control of Diego Garcia for the next 99 years and beyond. So soon... Of course.

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I thank you for giving way. It is important that the outset we understand there has been no change

13:27

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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14:13

Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)

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14:53

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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15:03

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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that same day, I met with a group of UK-based Chagossians came to Parliament to protest against the deal which had been reached without their involvement. Maxwell said to me in desperation that his people have no state and no power. He said, " All we have is our voice. But that has been silenced for so long. Those were the views of the many Chagossians living here in the UK have not changed since. The right honourable lady member for Witham peppered her speech with breathless peppered her speech with breathless hyperbole.

But let me speak plainly. There has been consistency between the approach of the last government and this one. Conservative members do not want to accept that fact but it is true. Both governments accepted that legal challenges, not only in International Court of Justice, were a threat to the U.K.'s vital security interests. Both governments pursued negotiations over the sovereignty of the Chagos Archipelago with a goal to securing legally our use of Diego Garcia. And both governments failed to protect the interests of Chagossians in the negotiations with Mauritius.

The recent amendments tabled in my name and that the Liberal Democrats seeks and that the Liberal Democrats seeks to address both these facts. From the very start, the process of securing the treaty to be given effect by this bill has been characterised by this glaring omission. Has been the abject failure by successive governments properly to consult the Chagossian people. And to ensure their rights are protected in the final settlement. While we recognise and support the importance of abiding by international law, and do believe it is in the UK interests to negotiate with Mauritius, given the risks that the Conservatives and the Reform Party seek to ignore, a judgement against the UK in any court represents a threat to our security interests in Diego Garcia.

The treaty that has been agreed trampled over the Chagossians. Not only does it failed to provide adequate protection of their rights but it fails entirely to establish a right to return what a program of resettlement on the islands for Chagossians. Much of the history, Chagossians have been denied consultation on who governs and the right to determination. We fear now that this treaty, if enacted, will only reinforce that historic legacy. Mauritius, which let us remember lies only 1,300 miles we are Capello will become new colonial masters of the islanders.

I have grave concerns about the degree to which this deal will genuinely support UK security over the long term. There's a concerning lack of detail regarding the extension of the G8 Diego Garcia beyond this and the 99 year term. Nor does the treaty reckon seriously with generating guaranteed protections against encroachment by revisionist powers such as China which could threaten or undermine UK interests in the region. The unique maritime environment around the Chagos Archipelago is one of the most ecologically valuable regions on earth.

Home to an extraordinary range of wildlife and acting as a sanctuary for many threatened species. I fear the treaty does not afford adequate protection to this precious environment. Protecting and restoring wetlands not only vital for global marine conservation but offers unique opportunities to deepen our understanding of natural systems. Resettlement of the Chagossians could have provided a model for community led conservation in the islands. Instead, shortsighted opposition to two got proposals, the controversial marine protected area designation squander the opportunity.

Finally, there is the cost of this deal. The government shrouded in secrecy when it first announced it then appeared to reopen it to appease the new Mauritian Prime Minister. UK taxpayers are right to ask how ministers justify the sums involved at a time when public finances are so stretched in the UK. This treaty and bill fails to put in place the necessary oversight and accountability mechanisms over that very large sums involved, and annual payments to Mauritius and the Chagossian trust fund.

The government elected not to provide time for a debate and vote on this chamber in the treaty, and I regret members were not given that opportunity. We are also awaiting the statement on the rights of Chagossians which the noble Lords Collins promised would be discussed in both houses before ratification. Hope the Minister will clarify when this will be scheduled. In the meantime, for all the reasons I have set out and have set out in the recent amendment in my name and those of the Liberal Democrat colleagues who have signed the amendments, I believe that this Bill to give effect to the treaty should

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not receive a second reading. I call Peter Lamb. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I begin by congratulating the Can I begin by congratulating the Minister on his appointment and thank Ministers for the time they've thank Ministers for the time they've given me to raise matters in relation to this bill and responses they have provided. I see of no they have provided. I see of no logical reason why the government went to the painful process of bringing this to the floor today if they were not 100% convinced it was in the UK national interest.

But I believe no matter how important believe no matter how important those concerns are, I do not believe they give us the right to override the Chagossians people's rights to self-determination. I believe we cannot vote for this because it is not our islands to give away in the first place. I know many members of this House will take interests of applying for the Chagossian people, and in the process. The first recorded contact with these islands is before but the modern history as France who bound colonial ministration with Mauritius.

This is ministration with Mauritius. This is the only basis on which a claim is made of the islands. In the late 18th century, UK planted coconut plantations in the island, and we used slave labour to do that. It is amongst those slaves that the unique island culture began to develop. In 1965, UK divided that colonial entity, hunting the modern state British independent and at the same time, in terms of financial compensation, they agreed to give up any future claim on the islands.

However we had come to determination that this would be a convenient location for a military base joining up with the US. And in order to facilitate the space, the decision was taken. We remove the islands in the archipelago. It began under a Labour government but concluded under a Conservative government. Official documentation stated that the base was too important for the UK for Tarzan's and man Fridays to get in the way. Make clear the islands should only be recognised, and the opposition in the 60s was taking place in the interests of national security.

Islands of the

15:12

Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)

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different culture, and for decades they were abandoned by the British Government. Left in poverty and Government. Left in poverty and facing discrimination. The years they have fought for their rights and they have won some concessions and they have won some concessions in that time gluing the rights to UK citizenship stop with most choosing to said at their home in Crawley. to said at their home in Crawley. This is a move that came with enormous challenges. I have known enormous challenges. I have known and worked alongside members of the British Chagossians unity of almost two decades.

The council leader I two decades. The council leader I promised them that is a part of this committee was my job to be their committee was my job to be their voice in government and not the other way around. It is that promise that leads me to vote against this that leads me to vote against this bill today. It is true to say there are Chagossians who enthusiastically support the deal just as there are those who desperately oppose it. At those who desperately oppose it.

At the same with any community on actually any issue. What is not actually any issue. What is not disputed as the islands belong to the Chagossians, and it is for that the Chagossians, and it is for that people alone to decide the future of their homeland. We have not given them that chance to decide the them that chance to decide the future. Until every Chagossian has had the chance to have their say, I cannot support this deal. But I'm cannot support this deal. But I'm not naive.

I am certain that this bill will pass today. Let me turn to the question. Yes.

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We had a passionate defence of not bringing the Falkland Islands or other British Overseas Territories other British Overseas Territories but Gibraltar has self-determination voted for by the people as does the Falkland Islands. Is it his thesis that that will apply for Chagossians that that will apply for Chagossians and therefore they make the determination whether to be British or to go to Mauritius on that basis?

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or to go to Mauritius on that basis? I believe it is very unfortunate they are not given the opportunity. And I believe had we given them the And I believe had we given them the opportunity, whatever the outcome, I would have no problem honouring that because this is their land.

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because this is their land. I thank the Member for giving way. He is speaking well of half of his constituents. He will acknowledge that the argument for Chagossians having a right of nationality was one that was hardfought for many Chagossians, and hardfought for many Chagossians, and some of us were pleased to support some of us were pleased to support that. Does he also acknowledge that, yes there are differences of opinion amongst Chagossians, including the amongst Chagossians, including the Chagos Refugees Group in which broadly speaking supports this broadly speaking supports this treaty.

Does he not think it is time to bring all the communities together and recognise they have achieved an enormous amount, gaining the right to return and write the residents at least on the archipelago?

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There is an enormous challenge, as I'm sure the honourable member is aware from his many years of working aware from his many years of working with the group, in how many disparate voices are. The borough council had taken it on themselves council had taken it on themselves to try and work with the different communities, to come together and form a coherent voice out of the belief they will only secure what belief they will only secure what they are seeking by having one coherent Democratic Voice of Burma coherent Democratic Voice of Burma is in.

Unfortunately, the deal emerged during the course of this and there is not in the opportunity. and there is not in the opportunity. It has driven a certain rift through the community due to the timing. I'm the community due to the timing. I'm not naive. I am certain this bill will proceed today. Let me turn to the question of what next. On the topic of the treaty itself, why mention is made of Chagossians in mention is made of Chagossians in the wording, I remain concerned, as other members alluded to, there are gaps which leave the people at risk.

While there is the option for Chagossians to be allowed by the Mauritian government to return the islands, there is no requirement for islands, there is no requirement for that to happen. There is no guarantee that any Chagossians who does return to the archipelago will does return to the archipelago will not face restrictions that could prevent permanent habitation even at the subsistence level of economic the subsistence level of economic activity. There is no guarantee that the trust fund that has been created will be under the control of the Chagossians, and is exclusively to address the consequences of their forceful removal from the islands.

There is no guarantee that there will not face a 10 year prison sentence for questioning Mauritian territorial integrity by taking on British Citizenship Bill and many remain upset that Diego Garcia remains off-limits. The view that some creativity could be used, particularly given the prolonged period in which asylum seekers have been present on the island. I say all this because I want to urge ministers to continue to engage with the Mauritian government on these issues and to give the Chagossians a certainty over the place in this deal.

Closer to home there are many challenges facing Chagossians choose to exercise their right to citizenship. Chief among these problems is housing. As part of our national housing strategy, need to ensure that every UK citizen has access to good quality housing. It includes Chagossians. The legal convocation of their citizenship, despite having lost their homes in Chagos, received on the support offered by relocation schemes of other groups. This creates enormous pressures on local authorities and airports leaves many Chagossians living in dilapidated housing conditions if they can find accommodation at all.

The second worst housing crisis in the country, the reality is that Crawley Borough Council cannot on its own over the entire country's housing duties due to Gotze people. There are challenges around access to language training support services which often lead to Chagossians relying on others in the community. And the enormous amount of goodwill of charity towards other groups but we have had instances of that being We need a mechanism for qualifications issued in Mauritius to be recognised in the UK.

Lastly, there is a desperate need for facilities for the Chagossian to preserve their unique cultural heritage. With so few first- generation Chagossian's left, there is not much time left. And let ministers are meeting with churros in groups -- Chagossian groups and I hope that advancement can be made. I would say to all members of the House today, this house has done enormous harm to the Chagossian people. I believe that handing these islands to Mauritius without the consent is harmful.

Regardless of the outcome of the vote today, we must start the process of making things right.

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Thank you very much. It's a privilege to follow the Honourable gentleman for crawling. I admire his principles and persistence and his principles and persistence and his advocacy for his Chagossian constituents -- Crawley. There is no constituents -- Crawley. There is no dispute that Diego Garcia is crucial to the UK security and that of its to the UK security and that of its allies. That is not something we are allies. That is not something we are arguing about.

And I do not think it is the government's position that in terms of the day-to-day terms of the day-to-day practicalities of operating the Diego Garcia base, this new arrangement whereby we no longer arrangement whereby we no longer have sovereignty over Diego Garcia, but we will continue to administer it for at least 99 years, I do not it for at least 99 years, I do not think that it is the government position that that arrangement is better than what we had, but rather better than what we had, but rather that it is a more secure arrangement that it is a more secure arrangement because of what has been described as the legal uncertainty describing our sovereignty.

I see the Minister noting and I'm grateful for that. I will give way.

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will give way. I'm grateful to him for giving way. It is more secure legally until 99 years but more deaf -- but at that point, if the Mauritians decide not to have a base there, that is

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their decision. I understand the point that he makes. I think it's reinforced by the point that are right honourable the point that are right honourable friend made in reading from the agreement as to how disputes are agreement as to how disputes are resolved. I want to focus, if I may, on the position now and the legal on the position now and the legal notification the government has already deployed for the arrangement already deployed for the arrangement it seeks to make.

I think there are problems already. It seems to me that if the position the government that if the position the government takes is as I said it out and it takes is as I said it out and it seems the Minister accepts this. seems the Minister accepts this. Renting it will be better than owning it outright according to the owning it outright according to the government view. Everything turns on government view. Everything turns on this question of legal uncertainty, which ministers have often referred which ministers have often referred to as the reason this treaty and this bill are necessary.

Having this bill are necessary. Having spent four years as Attorney General, I'm quite familiar with legal uncertainty. There is a lot of it about in government. It is, I'm afraid, invariably the case that whenever a decision is made in government, someone disagrees with it. Someone will be prepared to go to court and challenge the validity of that decision. And until the court, sometimes the Supreme Court, has resolved the matter, it can be said that there is a legal uncertainty.

Legal uncertainty hangs around government like the clouds and it cannot be allowed to paralyse a government, nor should that sort of atmospheric legal uncertainty be the only cause of a decision as significant as that which this government is now making to give up sovereignty over a vital military facility. So there must be something more substantive, something more tangible. Many of us have tried to find out what exactly that is but with very limited, I'm afraid, success. Given that, the legal certainty referred to here, constitute the reality of the platform which the government relies upon to justify this bill and this treaty.

Surely, before this house approves either of them, it must be given a proper and clear explanation of precisely what legal jeopardy the government is acting in response to. In pursuit of that, it's worth having a look back at the explanations that knitters have given so far. Let's start with the former Foreign Secretary. He told this House, "The issue was becoming more acute. Binding judgement against the UK seemed inevitable." Many of us have been asking aware that inevitable binding judgement might come from.

The only court which had by then been mentioned was the International Court of Justice which issued an advisory opinion on sovereignty over the Chagos Islands and macro Diego Garcia bill stop indeed, there could only have been an advisory decision on the subject because the UK accepted the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ. I was the Attorney General at the time. Those decisions, those declarations made it clear the UK did not accept that compulsory jurisdiction in relation to, and I quote, "Any dispute with any other country which has been a member of the Commonwealth.

That includes Mauritius." Any dispute with Mauritius in front of the IG -- ICJ could not result in a judgement against the kingdom. This point has been put to ministers and as far as I know, they have not assented -- dissented from that analysis. So, if the ICJ could not make that judgement, which other court might? On this, I'm afraid we've not had clarity. On 13 November last year, the honourable member for Cardiff South answered an urgent question on the Chagos Islands.

What he said was

15:25

Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)

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15:39

Graeme Downie MP (Dunfermline and Dollar, Labour)

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15:47

Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)

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stands at the moment. This stands at the moment. This arrangement is vague and we are arrangement is vague and we are supposed to guess and be able to make the right decisions. It is make the right decisions. It is missing detail on what the Chagossian people want. The other bit is the cost and there is a final bit is the cost and there is a final bet on China and Russia. Quickly, if bet on China and Russia.

Quickly, if I can, I will deal with the legal case. The government has been peppered with requests non-stop peppered with requests non-stop since the process began to explain the legal threat that would mean the legal threat that would mean that we would be in real trouble if we did not seal the deal. They would not explain it but there were not explain it but there were suggestions here and there and my right honourable friend has been right honourable friend has been right about this.

And then the door right about this. And then the door opened. Andy minister, -- and the minister, ISA to him, the other minister made the point that somehow this was to do with something else and it has been a letdown for the UK in terms of the case that would be in terms of the case that would be ruled against them under UNCOS and the first is about government services and disputes at the UN.

-- UNCLOS. The same relates to matters taken up by the UN Security Council and the important thing is that this is not a threat that needs to be recognised. There is no way. It comes back to the Court of Justice and it was an advisory judgement and it cannot refer to an existing or previous arrangement. You keep coming back to this cheque. The idea that this will be spoken about like that is nonsense and, from the legal perspective, I think the government has come unstuck.

I have sat through many debates in the house and it is very rare the government comes unstuck on a case of legality. The second bit that they come unstuck on is the money. On the legal side, they would not tell us but there were suggestions we were in a desperate situation. Then the money, I have never seen a government unable and unwilling to tell us exactly how much things cost of what they are worth. The reality is that I know everyone has been chasing the government for that.

Now we find out that there has been gerrymandering with the figures with regards to the original statement and it is £35 billion in total cost and we must deal with total cost. The problem with the element of what they call the GDP deflator and the so-called social time discounting method, this has been dismissed as a real way of calculating costs for this kind of issue and they have re-emphasised the fact that total cost is the only way for a long-term treaty to be looked at.

It is simple. It relies on cost benefit analysis used for a social project and particularly with the long-term project and the real dispute about the ability of such a method to deal with precisely reasonably well with the overall cost benefit analysis on a long-term period. Therefore, there is concern that it is the right way to go on this at all. It is added to by the fact that they are trying to predict what will happen in Mauritius and over the next many years, this is a 99-year deal, and there is no way we will have control.

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Two families have had leadership

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Two families have had leadership over the past 60 years - is there any reason to doubt that will continue?

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continue? There is uncertainty about growth and societal well-being and imagine how difficult it becomes if you how difficult it becomes if you tried to predict what happens with tried to predict what happens with Mauritius? After not answering for so long, suddenly there is a new so long, suddenly there is a new device and if we do not accept it we are dismissing the Green Book are dismissing the Green Book completely? This is not a Green Book completely? This is not a Green Book issue in terms of overall cost because it is about paying someone because it is about paying someone outside of this.

On the money side, outside of this. On the money side, honestly, it has fallen apart again. Thirdly, and I find this appalling, Thirdly, and I find this appalling, the reality is that we have had no real debate on the treaty or the bill. The old system that was meant to be was rushed through without a vote and I've got a huge amount of respect for the honourable gentleman but I have to say it is appalling when we are dealing with something as important strategically as this.

All the legislation today, for orders and counsel, if anybody read that and did not have a huge intake of breath, the point of the rest of this bill is negated by article 5. What is the point of debating it What is the point of debating it when Article 5 says that Article 5 states that the government can't change at all by order of counsel with no vote and no disputes. And so we do not have to consult Parliament anymore.

It is ridiculous. There are sweeping powers. There were complaints about governments that give themselves these powers and even by the standards of previous governments, this is astonishing. It is not democracy any more and we have given up the debate and handed it over to one person. This is appalling and it needs to be appalling and it needs to be refocused. We have spent a long time on the floor of the House talking about different clauses.

It's important. International treaties are vitally important to well-being and it does not work. The last bit is on China. I would say this, and I suspect other colleagues will be sanctioned as well. They are bound to be sanctioned. I look forward to that. I would say that there is no way that China does not benefit from this. China has its eyes on the important flow of commercial traffic that runs below the Chagos Islands and they have all this wanted to control or into seat there.

They have already got a naval base in Sri Lanka which they got by default on the back of Belt and Road and they have been looking under the arrangements for a long time to intercede on this and I will tell the whole house that they are 2-3 steps further forward as a result of the bill and it does not secure as absolutely because we give up control when we decided to hand over control to Mauritius.

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I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I am not on the giving way. I am not on the sanctions list but perhaps I will be there shortly. Does he share my concern about the lease that has concern about the lease that has been given for 99 years given some adversaries strategise in the long term and it is a short period of time, years.

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time, years. The Chinese government considers this a long-term plan and are clear about it. What were the doing last about it. What were the doing last about it. What were the doing last week when we saw President Xi with the North Korean dictator on one site and the Russian on the other, site and the Russian on the other, talking about the new world order. That is the purpose and continues to That is the purpose and continues to be so.

They should have been taken to the upper tier of the scheme. Why to the upper tier of the scheme. Why they are not there, I have my suspicions. The reason why it has suspicions. The reason why it has not been done is may well have entered the negotiations on the Chagos Islands as well because they would have been huge interventions. In conclusion, I simply say that they honestly think the government needs to pause this now and go back to the drawing board and admit they got it wrong.

And the answer that was given to colleagues on the other side of the house about what the party of government with you, I have reached the conclusion that no matter who is in power, I am in opposition, so I tell you categorically, whatever else happens, and it was ended quite rightly by David Cameron when he became Foreign Secretary, some of us made it clear this should not have gone ahead for many of the reasons I laid out and it is no good to come back later on and say, "I wish we had not the." Now is the time to stand up and say, "This does not work.

It must stop. The government must think again." must think again."

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I rise to support the bill and the bill is not only timely but

15:58

Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)

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the bill is not only timely but essential for national security, international obligations, the strategic future of the UK. It's not just an isolated area at the top of the Indian Ocean but the most geopolitically significant military outpost of the 21st century and serves as a joint base for US-UK operations and is fraught with instability with piracy in the heart of Africa and the growing threat of expansionism of China in the Indo- Pacific. This bill ensures certainty for our Armed Forces, our ability to meet NATO obligations, provide safe trade routes, respond safely to humanitarian crises across Asia and Africa.

In a time of escalating global tensions from the South, Red Sea, the South China Sea, we cannot afford ambiguity with defence infrastructure. I've listened with concern to the arguments laid out from members opposite, some who are acting with a confusion between diplomatic impunity and practical governance. They have access to the same legal advice, security briefings and the same threat assessment as we have now. Only after leaving government and with no deal of their own that they begin to play politics with national security.

The sudden opposition is not principled, but opportunistic and irresponsible. Opposition members talk about international law and talk about guidelines from the International Court of Justice as if they were binding judgements. Sovereignty is a matter of law, treaties, and responsibility, not preference. The UK has administered the territory of the British Indian Ocean for over 50 years and have done so in close coordination with allies, especially the USA. They simply walk away, as some have suggested, would be an act of geopolitical negligence and to those who argue the bays should be handed over to another power under the banner of anti colonialism I would tell them to be careful for what they wish for because the UK and US would not leave behind a vacuum but a price, a strategic duel that would be taken by international resumes who have no regard for human rights, international law, diplomatic principles.

Our responsibility is not to rewrite history by dismantling defences but to shape the future by ensuring we are strong, legitimate, effective. This bill provides clarity and authority for the continued use of Diego Garcia, strengthening oversight and introducing new commitments to environmental stewardship and it importantly establishes a pathway about resettlement and heritage for the Chagossian representatives and it's important we listen to their voices. This bill does not closed doors but opens them, without Opposition for the sake of Opposition for the sake of opposition is not leadership.

With a rather handover strategic influence in the Indian Ocean to those who undermine international rules-based order? Let me remind the House that there are real threats in the world, cyberattacks, terrorist attacks, terrorist networks and legal my terrorist networks and legal my illegal arms trafficking,... Diego garcia is not a relic of the Cold War, it is a strategic capability we rely on today. This Bill is pragmatic, it is proportionate, it is grounded in the national interest and it is fully compatible with our democratic powers.

It does not ignore the past, it confronted. And it seeks to charter a responsible path forward. I add colleagues across the House me, especially those wavering on the fence, to vote not out of the ideological... About a practical necessity. The world is watching, our allies are watching in history to will judge what we choose today. Choose strength, responsibility, regional and global security, choose to back the UK's national security.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is a pleasure to see you in the chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I daresay, during an intervention to the Minister for Defence Procurement I said he was acting in a I said he was acting in a duplicitous way. I was already tribute by the speaker, you do not need to step in... But I would like need to step in... But I would like to say I did miss speak and I did not think that he was being genuine not think that he was being genuine but I would like to apologise to him because I'm someone that never plays because I'm someone that never plays the man, I always play the ball, and it is a shame he is not here to hear it is a shame he is not here to hear that apology.

What I will say is that his career as Minister of State for defence procurement, which I do welcome, is a good friend of mine welcome, is a good friend of mine and I look forward to serving in his position, really hasn't gone very well to start, has it? Because the parsimony comes to this House in parsimony comes to this House in charge of defence procurement in this country single hard lately -- single-handedly started advocating about disposing about what I think about disposing about what I think is a vital piece of defence infrastructure that is relevant and essential to our country and he stood there to try and defend the indefensible.

I suggested the Whips bench they might want to look at some of his decisions going forward some of his decisions going forward if he is in charge of procuring defence equipment on behalf of this country. Because Soba he has only been successful at getting rid of vital indestructibility country and I hope you does better going forward. The first job and the first duty of any government, any government that serves the great people of this great country, is to keep its people and itself say.

I never thought that I would come to this House, on a day like today, and see a day where a government, this government, is creating the biggest act of self sabotage that I think we have seen in generations of elect did houses in the history of our nation. -- Elected Houses. Not only harming our security but harming the strategic interests of our people

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and our security of this country. ... This is harming our strategic

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... This is harming our strategic interest why is it back by our allies, by the United States, by NATO? Why can't he answer that? If the honourable gentlemen had

**** Possible New Speaker ****

If the honourable gentlemen had bothered to stand up at the -- show up the entirety of the debate, I up the entirety of the debate, I think the first time he has been hit, he would have answer to those questions. By excellent speeches questions. By excellent speeches made across the house. What I would say to him is that I would also ask him why is this backed by so many him why is this backed by so many countries there are malign interests my influences of interest United Kingdom? Such as Russia, China and Kingdom? Such as Russia, China and Iran.

He wants to stay for the rest of the debate he might hear some answers to those questions too. I answers to those questions too. I want to make it very clear to members on other side of the House because it is very easy to stand in because it is very easy to stand in this chamber and read the Labour Party briefing and because you say things time and time again, it must things time and time again, it must be true, and people out there expect it will be true.

I was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton when Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton when he was Foreign Secretary. And he he was Foreign Secretary. And he said Foreign Office officials at the time that Goshen is going on, that time that Goshen is going on, that were being explored, went past his red lines. My right honourable friend the Member for Braintree, who was Foreign Secretary when some of these negotiations happen, said to the Foreign Office officials at the time, as the democratically elected Foreign Secretary, these recommendations go beyond my red lines.

Those negotiations were then stopped by Lord Cameron and I remember him instructing Foreign Office officials to stop those negotiations. And I just saying to members such as the honourable gentlemen for Dunfermline and Dollar, that just because negotiations and conversations have started, it does not mean that you have to accept the conclusion that

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you do not want. I just asked him... ... We have heard already in the debate that we cannot hear a debate that we cannot hear a negotiation, can he explain what those red lines were exactly please?

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those red lines were exactly please? I would say it is not paying £35

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I would say it is not paying £35 billion to another country. And the red lines also to the last Foreign Secretary, who can I just remind him Secretary, who can I just remind him again, in case he wants to read his Labour Party briefing again, the other red lines for the last Foreign Secretary is to stop those Secretary is to stop those negotiations was that he did not accept unilaterally, clearly did not accept unilaterally, that the accept unilaterally, that the sovereignty of the Chagos Islands felt with Mauritius.

That is the key difference between the last government and this government going government and this government going forward. This deal is a bad deal for Britain. It is a bad deal in terms of the cost of 35 been pounds while of the cost of 35 been pounds while the government taxes spend and makes people and country poorer. It is a bad deal in an ever-changing bad deal in an ever-changing international world and security situation, where this country is situation, where this country is unilaterally giving up and strategically important defence base in an area of the world where we are seeing more uncertainty in the geopolitical location.

And as I say, geopolitical location. And as I say, I cannot... This Bill is so bad that I can't put how bad it is into words except to say that it is an act of self sabotage that we have not seen in this House by a democratically elected government elected by the people, in this House, for generations. I just want to make the point again not only is this a bad deal, but it is backed by every malign nation to our national

16:09

Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)

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16:20

Tim Roca MP (Macclesfield, Labour)

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on how he spoke earlier. I believe the answer is yes. Glacier is not just an overseas facility but fundamental to security and we have launched operations against high- value terrorist group from there and it is a logistics hub, telecommunications hub, and where we safeguard oil and trade routes. It is at risk. Ministers have outlined the issues that could be caused by this ruling. It is clear that even the non- binding ICG judgement is a matter of international law and could give opportunity to cause trouble in the islands, and the similar Chinese claims are not recognised.

That is all at risk and there are issues with submarines, controlling what is, it could be compromised. I have been waiting a long term and so I will continue. The vacuum, of course, if we allow it to be created, would be filled by China and others. What China thinks about this treaty is important as well and it has 19 years of guaranteed access with the option to extend by a further 40 and if that is good enough for Lord Salisbury, is good enough for me and it gives us control over communications, logistics, the electromagnetic spectrum and establishes a buffer zone and bands any foreign military presence on the outskirts of the island.

-- bans. We talked about the unique environment and the tangible support with the trust fund for the Chagossian people. I am satisfied on this front. In terms of the backing of allies and experts, Lord Goldsmith, the former Attorney- General, he said it was consistent with national security interests and respect for international law and international support is strong and it has been described as a good outcome for the UK, Australia, Mauritius by Australia and the Foreign Ministry said it secured the long-term, secure and effective operations and, in the US, Fergie did not get much bipartisan support, it is a bipartisan matter and Antony Blinken supports the negotiations and Marco Rubio commended the leadership and vision shown and Lloyd Austin said it would safeguard strategic security and interests into the next century and President Trump himself described it as an amazing deal, a beautiful deal, whatever deal, a good deal, that is the main point.

The international consensus is very clear. Allies, partners, experts back the deal and I was taken by the comments of Professor Benjamin Sachs in the US who said, "I content that the agreement is viewed as a setback by reaching in practical terms and there is little any advantage for them. He added it was a problem for his foreign policy and one that China could exploit and that it undermined the traditional UK support.

Finally, the deal deters the port from being a state of Beijing and I believe that this treaty passes the test. I will not. I don't think I've got the strength to listen to the honourable member again. The final test is on costs and obligations and ministers have powerfully talked about the deal being less than 0.2% of the Defence Budget and in comparison to the French in Djibouti, I am proud of you are getting a better deal than the French and it is larger and it involves immense operational freedom and so it seems to me this is a modest price to pay for an irreplaceable asset and we must balance the risks and the risks of delay or abandonment are vastly greater.

I'm happy to give way.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The honourable gentleman describes Diego Garcia as describes Diego Garcia as irreplaceable asset at the Chagossian people do not see it as that but as the home and even though that but as the home and even though they have been displaced for the best part of 50 years, have told me best part of 50 years, have told me that they see this as a new round of the same colonial humiliation the the same colonial humiliation the experiences in the 1960s and 1970s.

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experiences in the 1960s and 1970s. I thank him for raising this and

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I thank him for raising this and we should be honest that the history with the Chagossian people is very with the Chagossian people is very poor and if you look at the diplomatic cables, the language used diplomatic cables, the language used was disgraceful and provisions have been put in place and I would seam that it is a matter for the previous that it is a matter for the previous government and there have been negotiations on the issue and there is motivation for them to do that.

is motivation for them to do that. I'm worried about the way that I'm worried about the way that overseas territories are being involved in this and colleagues in Gibraltar told me they were horrified that party politics was being played and I'm glad to see it on the record and the Chief Minister in Gibraltar was clear that there was no recourse for Gibraltar and the Falklands have stated the historical context is very different. I'm confident we meet the criteria.

I'm afraid I will not. In closing, I believe the three tests have been met and I believe it meets national security requirements, has the backing of allies, and I think it would be dangerous to dither or delay any more, given the potential threat that there is.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I say that to take part in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I say that to take part in the debate and it is the case that the debate and it is the case that the foreign affairs Commissioner has had the opportunity to question the minister, although I was not entirely persuaded by some of his remarks but I welcome the remarks from two of the Labour speakers and my honourable friend on this site. my honourable friend on this site. There might be a more appropriate body to look at some aspects and also the Defence committee.

The one also the Defence committee. The one thing I think everybody who speaks will agree on is the importance to will agree on is the importance to the UK of Diego Garcia and the Chagos Islands and my honourable friend spoke of his former boss who friend spoke of his former boss who was a minister in the last government and a security adviser to government and a security adviser to the Prime Minister and he said it's the Prime Minister and he said it's no exaggeration to say Diego Garcia is the most strategically important logistics base for the UK and it is vital for the defence of the UK and our allies and I have no doubt honourable members would share the sentiment and would not agree with the statement that surrendering sovereignty would undermine British interests and those of key allies, most notably the US.

We have to heed the warning which he gave. Of course.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lord West has been referred to twice so far and he may be surprised twice so far and he may be surprised to learn that Admiral Lord West had a letter published in which she a letter published in which she talked about disgraceful decisions on the ownership of the Chagos Archipelago and that he did not Archipelago and that he did not accept it and said it is not as vital for offence and intelligence vital for offence and intelligence as the Prime Minister claims.

Someone of that calibre makes those Someone of that calibre makes those comments, I wonder what the position

16:30

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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