Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent Question: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make a statement about Thames Waters’ financial situation

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Let Let us Let us come Let us come to Let us come to the Let us come to the urgent

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Let us come to the urgent question. Shadow Secretary of State, Victoria Atkins. Thank you. To ask the Secretary

12:42

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Thank you. To ask the Secretary of State if he will make a statement about Thames Water's financial situation.

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Secretary of State. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the right honourable lady for securing this urgent question. I want to begin by making clear that Thames Water remains stable and the government is carefully monitoring the situation. Customers can be assured there will be no disruption assured there will be no disruption to water supply. Thames Water is a commercial entity currently engaged commercial entity currently engaged in an equity race. KKR pulled out of in an equity race.

KKR pulled out of the company's equity race process. The company will continue to work The company will continue to work with their creditors as part of the equity race to improve their equity race to improve their financial situation. -- Financial position. There remains a market solution on the table. We expect the solution on the table. We expect the company and its directors to continue the process underway and fix the financial resilience of the company in the interest of their customers. I want to be clear that the government is prepared for all eventualities across our regulated industries and stands ready to intervene through the use of a special administration regime should this be required to ensure the continued provision of vital public services.

The situation facing Thames Water is taking place within a wider context. Of the last year, we saw record levels of pollution in rivers, lakes and seas. It is clear that our water system is broken. We have already passed legislation so the regulator can ban underserved multi-million pound bonuses that so multi-million pound bonuses that so outraged the public and we further strengthened accountability through the introduction of up to two years in prison for polluting water bosses who break the law.

We've increased the regulator's resources and lodged a record 81 criminal investigations into water companies and followed the Polluter Pays principle so that companies that are successfully prosecuted pay for the cost of the prosecution so further prosecutions can follow. We have worked with the water companies to secure £104 billion of private sector investment to rebuild a broken water infrastructure. That means new sewage pipes, fewer leaking pipes, new -- and new reservoirs across the country as we work to end the sewage scandal that we inherited from the previous government.

I launch the Water Commission to outline recommendations for a once in a generation opportunity to transform our water industry and ensure it delivers the service the public deserves and our environment needs. Today, Sir John published an interim report setting out the commission's preliminary conclusions. The government will respond in full to the commission's final report in due course and outline further steps to benefit customers, attract investment and clean up our waterways. Whether it's Thames Water or other companies serving other parts of the country, the era of profiting from pollution is over.

This government will clean up our waterways for good. waterways for good.

12:46

Rt Hon Victoria Atkins MP (Louth and Horncastle, Conservative)

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When he refers to private sector investment, he is referring to the bill increases that every one of us will pay, £31, when he talks about private sector investment he means bill payers investment. 16 million residents and bill payers will be concerned at the news this morning that private equity firm have pulled out of the rescue deal with Thames Water. According to a source close to the company, one of the reasons they pulled out was because they were concerned about negative rhetoric directed at Thames Water and the rest of the industry in recent weeks by the Secretary of State and other ministers.

The Secretary of State and his ministers have talked themselves out of this rescue deal. If only they could do the same thing with Chagos. On which date did he discover that they were thinking of pulling out of the deal? What involvement did he have in the phone calls over the weekend between KKR and Number 10 to try to rescue this deal? I ask because in recent Briefings to the press that he is considering temporary renationalisation. The Treasury instructed him we will need to find up to £4 billion from DEFRA's budget to cover the cost of this manoeuvre.

To put that in context, the entire farming budget for this year's year is of roughly £2.5 billion. Can he explain the plans he referred to and do they include a plan for temporary nationalisation? What budget would it come from, DEFRA or central funds? This is relevant ahead of the upcoming spending review which has been briefed out in great detail, including the suggestion the DEFRA budget is to be slashed. He already referred to the report in his response, we will look at it carefully.

Like the shambolic defence review announcement yesterday, can he confirm there is no funding for this latest review and it will do nothing to resolve the immediate issue of Thames Water's solvency which he has mishandled, just as he mishandled the family from tax, fishing industry and SFI?

12:48

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for pointing out the House she does not understand the principles of private sector investment. Nor is it clever to stand at the despatch box opposite and make up figures to attack. This government stands ready for all eventualities, but I will make no apology for tackling the poor behaviour of water companies and water company executives that took place under the previous government and we are correcting. We even had stories that have been confirmed by water companies, previous conservative secretaries of state screaming out water company bosses but not changing the law to do anything about the bonuses they were able to pay themselves.

This government is taking action working with customers, water companies, investors, to ensure we have a successful water sector that works for the environment and for customers and for investors in a way it completely failed to do under the previous Conservative government. previous Conservative government.

12:49

Clive Lewis MP (Norwich South, Labour)

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The collapse of KKR's deal is not a blip, it is a reckoning. It exposes the bankruptcy of the privatised water model. This morning's review into the water sector confirms that scale of the crisis. He describes the water system as a regulated statutory monopoly too risky for investors. But it did not seem too risky when shareholders were siphoning off billions in dividends by letting the pipes rot, the rivers choke and that debt pilot. Bill payers are at risk who face a 35 percent real terms increase.

Half of which is to boost investor returns. When will the government stop fiddling, put Thames Water in special administration, strip out the debt and begin the job of bringing the water system back into public ownership?

12:50

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I was very grateful in bringing you in early but I did not expect you to make the statement yourself.

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I can reassure him that the government stands ready for any eventuality and will take action is eventuality and will take action is required. We are not looking at nationalisation because it would cost over £100 billion of public money which would have to be taken money which would have to be taken away from other public services like the National Health Service to be given to the owners of the water companies, it will take years to

12:51

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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companies, it will take years to unpick the current model of ownership, during which time the situation would get worse. We know that nationalisation is not the

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answer, you only have to look at the situation in Scotland. Thames Water were able to pilot

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Thames Water were able to pilot nearly £20 billion of debt, pump public sewage into rivers and lakes public sewage into rivers and lakes for hours. The Conservatives seem to think we are all being a bit too think we are all being a bit too mean about Thames Water. The price must not be paid by the customers. Will he ensure those responsible for making dreadful decisions bear the making dreadful decisions bear the costs instead? Isn't it right for the company to now go into special the company to now go into special administration and emerge as a public interest company? And all public interest company? And all water companies move to a public model so caring for the environment model so caring for the environment matters more than profit? The Member for Whitney did more to hold Thames Water to account than Ofwat or its predecessor -- this government's predecessor.

As he believe that predecessor. As he believe that Ofwat should be given more powers to Ofwat should be given more powers to clean up our lakes, rivers and industry? industry?

12:52

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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There is a procedure should that be required. He may have had chance be required. He may have had chance to look at the Interim Report, Sir John invited comments ahead of the final report that will happen in about a month. That will form the basis for future legislation to fix the regulatory mess we inherited from the party opposite.

12:53

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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Only the Conservatives could come here and defend Thames Water. The rest of the country has seen what an appalling performance this company has had, in 35 years of privatisation. Can my right honourable friend say, it is time we have to put this company out of its misery but we have to do so in a way that does not bring the debts they have run up onto the taxpayer or the bill payers. Can my right honourable friend say that one of the options is preparing for that eventuality?

12:53

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I thank him for the question. We are prepared for every eventuality and we will take whatever action necessary to ensure the continued supply of water to the customers in the Thames region and elsewhere. the Thames region and elsewhere.

12:53

Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

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The £3 billion loan that Thames Water has negotiated will bring his first drawdown of 1.5 billion on 30 June. Less than four weeks to go. Contingent on Thames Water having an agreement in respect of the recapitalisation transaction, from which they now have no partner to provide it. They chose to proceed with just one option, which has now walked away. So, who does the Secretary of State think that Thames Water will now turn to? They are not going to be negotiating from a position of strength.

What is the government going to do if they cannot meet 30 June deadline? cannot meet 30 June deadline?

12:54

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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There remains a market led solution on the table. We expect Thames Water to follow through on the process to ensure they are able to fix the problems they are currently facing. currently facing. currently facing.

12:55

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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My constituents and other Thames Water users are fed up to the back teeth with having to pay more to help this company that has failed them so badly. The Secretary of State has to have special administration on the table. We know it is hugely costly to the taxpayer but if he goes down that route, is he going to her front and centre the cost to individual customers, they do not actually have to pay more for that process? that process?

12:55

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I absolutely agree with my right honourable friend. I share her anger, the fight bill rises were so high this year, that's because the party opposite did not take necessary action to ensure the water system was being properly maintained. Anyone who has owned a House or lived in a House will know, if you see a crack in a wall and leave it for 10 years without fixing it, the problem gets much worse and the cost of repair gets much more. The public are being left to pay the price of Tory failure.

12:56

Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)

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Will the Minister confirm that the government will ensure Thames Water stand by its commitment to upgrade our sewage network in South Bucks? And ensure the upgrade promised to the Little Marlow sewage treatment works in my constituency is delivered on time?

12:56

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I am happy to give her that reassurance. The government expects Thames Water to carry it through on the full range of programs agreed as part of the last plan.

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My constituents have been failed by Thames Water for many years now, we saw a flood in 2013 were many

12:56

Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)

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we saw a flood in 2013 were many local businesses how to close permanently. Customers and businesses let down, a store left without water for days and days at a time. Roadworks at the same locations where they failed to invest adequately in the infrastructure. And now bill is going away more than the Ofwat determination. It is clear the organisation is not fit for purpose. What options is he considering to bring the misery to an end and put customers back at the heart of customers back at the heart of Thames Water's operations?

12:57

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I thank her for her question. She will have seen the Interim Report today from the water commission, outlining initial thoughts on how we need to fix the broken regulatory system. Government has also increased compensation from what we inherited from the previous government so her constituency suffer in their kind of properties outlined can expect far better outlined can expect far better compensation as a result of this government's actions.

12:57

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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I declare an interest as a Thames Water customer. The reality is that Thames Water is bankrupt. It cannot Thames Water is bankrupt. It cannot pay its debts and it cannot meet its legal obligations to Ofwat, to the state and its customers. The right thing to do is to put it out of its misery, put it into special administration for a pound, they have all blown their day. I for a pound, good deal for the taxpayer, will not have to pay huge egregious rates of interest and the taxpayers and customers will the beneficiaries.

beneficiaries.

12:58

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Are especially point out to the honourable gentleman that reform care so much for the problems facing the water system that they did not mention it once in the general election manifesto. Nationalising the water sector would cost in excess of £100 million, money they would have the takeaway from services like the National Health Service, that his constituents rely on. I think they would be very ill served by him if he were to take that funding away and push up waiting this we have just started seeing coming down as a result of this government's investment.

this government's investment.

12:59

Liam Conlon MP (Beckenham and Penge, Labour)

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Is my neighbouring MP will know, the level of outrage at the continuous failures from Thames Water, including a five year period earlier this year were residents in my constituency were left without water. Given the Labour government introduced measures to make executives criminally viable -- liable and van bonuses, does he agree we are seeing accountability agree we are seeing accountability brought back to the water sector?

12:59

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I thank him for his question. I know what a strong champion he is for water and his constituents. His constituents will benefit from increased compensation when there are failures, one of the problems we inherited from the previous government is we had a failing system with no accountability at all. It is right we should have introduced new criminal liabilities and potentially prison time for polluting water bosses and give the regulator the power to ban unfair and undeserved multi-million pound Conservatives.

13:00

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

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Does the Secretary of State agree with Thames Water's own expert adviser that the ultimate cost if the company goes into special administration, to the government would be zero? would be zero?

13:00

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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The point is there is a market led solution on the table and I expect Thames Water to follow through on that.

13:00

Yuan Yang MP (Earley and Woodley, Labour)

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It is possible for an American private equity company to walk away from Thames Water but my constituents cannot. It is our residents who pay when bosses fail. I'm glad the government has taken bonuses of bosses who are failing. What more can the government do floor incentives for investment in our infrastructure so my our infrastructure so my our infrastructure so my our infrastructure so my The problem she points you are a lack of investment, throughout the period of the previous government.

I was delighted that before Christmas we committed £104 billion of cyber -- private sector investment. -- -- private sector investment. -- Secured 104 billion of private sector investment. The largest private sector investment into any part of the economy under this government. We are serious about cleaning up the sewage mess. cleaning up the sewage mess.

13:01

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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Thames Water are a massive stakeholder in my constituency. The biggest landowner. We have halved -- half of London's drinking. For 11 months I have been trying to get a meeting with Thames Water. Will he meeting with Thames Water. Will he try to organise a meeting to get try to organise a meeting to get

13:02

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I agree with him that water companies should be seeking to engage with constituents and I will engage with constituents and I will ensure he gets the meeting he is seeking.

13:02

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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My constituency is greatly concerned about the raise in their concerned about the raise in their water bills and also business. The infrastructure is rotting. What insurances -- assurances can be given to my constituents that there will be continued investment in infrastructure? infrastructure?

13:02

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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He will already be aware that the action we have taken through the Water (Special Measures) Bill will save money by abolishing the bonuses save money by abolishing the bonuses that water bosses paid themselves.

13:03

Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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The Green party has campaigned for public ownership of water since here.$$JOIN. -- year dot. We know that if you allow privatised monopolies to control what, it leaves infrastructure crumbling and shareholders laughing all the way to shareholders laughing all the way to the bank. Can I ask the Secretary of State, given this obscene and fundamental failure, why is it the government will not even consider government will not even consider bringing water back into public hands where it belongs.

13:03

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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The problems facing the water sector are to do with failure is of sector are to do with failure is of the government and regulation. If we were to seek to nationalise the water sector, it would cost in excess of £100 million. It would have to be taken away from services like the National Health Service or education and it would take years to unpick the current model of ownership, during which time there would be no investment and water pollution would get worse, and we know from the example of Scotland that nationalisation is not the that nationalisation is not the answer because they also have problems with pollution.

We are going to make sure that our priority is pure water, not the purity of her ideology.

13:04

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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As Thames Water dumps sewage into my constituency, the government my constituency, the government washes their hands of it, not in it. As we see more action to get to grips with Thames Water, will the Secretary of State commit to putting two things at the forefront of his line? Firstly, our environment and cleaning up the sewage. And secondly, customers and making sure we get a fair deal for our customers and constituents. and constituents.

13:05

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I'm sure he will be pleased to know we have launched 81 criminal investigations into water companies for pollution and pollution failings and other failings. That is a dramatic increase from what we inherited from the previous government. I'm sure he will recall they cut resources to the regulator and half despite the appalling financial inheritance, we increased resources and 9% and we introduced the Polluter Pays principle so that companies pay the price of investigations so further investigations and prosecutions can follow.

follow.

13:05

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you very much. Thames Water is teetering on the brink. Investors are running for the hills, and my constituents are paying the price for their mismanagement through soaring bills. All the while, Thames Water is spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a proposed sewage recycling project at Teddington Lock -- Loch in my constituency. Some cynics suggest this is designed entirely to boost their balance sheet. Would he come and visit the site to look at the impact of this proposed project? Can I ask him to reiterate that commitment today and I would be commitment today and I would be As I said to her constituents, I would be very happy to come and visit if my diary allows.

In any visit if my diary allows. In any case, I will be happy to ensure she gets a meeting with the Water Minister to discuss her concerns around Thames Water. around Thames Water.

13:06

Does the Secretary of State agree that it's something -- it's indicative of something when the opposition suggests... John Cunliffe suggested stronger regulation, not weaker. Is it not clear the direction this government is going in is the right one?

13:07

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I agree with her because the whole mess we inherited was because the previous government let the water companies get away with it. They were paying themselves multi- They were paying themselves multi- million bonuses while polluting our waterways. We are putting them under tough special measures and we will tough special measures and we will focus on serving customers and the environment, not themselves.

13:07

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Does the Secretary of State think the situation might improve if Thames Water executives were obliged to sign up to performance -related pay?

13:07

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Secretary of State. I hope he suggests this to John Cunliffe who is currently looking at

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a better way to regulate. I know of the Secretary's

13:08

Cat Smith MP (Lancaster and Wyre, Labour)

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reluctance around public ownership. Bringing water into public ownership will pay for itself in about seven years and after that it would save the public purse £2.5 billion a year. As the secretary aware that by bringing Thames Water into special administration and permanent public ownership, it would cut the debt and have, stop the payment of huge

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dividends and within just several years, it would start turning a profit for the people of this country. Secretary of State.

13:08

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I beg to slightly correct. Special administration is not nationalisation. Nationalisation would cost in excess of £100 billion, money that would have to be taken away from other services. I do not think taxpayers would welcome that.

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Thank you. I have a note received from the Government Engagement Lead

13:08

Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)

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from the Government Engagement Lead for North Thames Valley. It says they will run out of money in 2026. Will the government agreed to take Thames Water into special administration and unburden its creditors of it that or will members required to block their diaries for summer 2026 for another recess

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recall? As I'm sure he is aware, there are procedures to follow that would

13:09

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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are procedures to follow that would require any regulated company to go into special administration. As things stand, times remains -- Thames Water remains stable.

13:09

This is another example of the last government's failure to improve our water system. Meanwhile, just last week, this government find Yorkshire Water. My constituents are really upset to see their water bills going up. Can my honourable friend please assure me that he will never let the situation get so bad with our national infrastructure is the government pensions obviously the government pensions obviously have done?

13:10

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Absolutely. We intend to clear up the mess that the previous government made. The fine he refers to and there have been others, are a result of the additional investigations we have lunch. That follows on from additional resources we have given to the regulator so they can investigate and take action. What a difference from the last government who let them get away with it and line the pockets. away with it and line the pockets.

13:10

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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Thank you. I find the response from the Secretary of State deeply depressing but he says there is a market solution therefore Thames Water. We've had 35 years of excessive profits, pollution and we've had 35 years of rising bills as well. He knows at some point he's going to have to take Thames Water into public ownership. Instead of quoting this strange figure of £100 billion in compensation, if we took it into public ownership, Parliament would set the price at which we would purchase the company, taking into account excessive profits, pollution, damage and the destruction of so many people's lives by the way in which Thames Water has behaved.

Can he be tough with it for once and say that water is a human right and it should be publicly owned and publicly run?

13:11

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Water is indeed a human right and that is why this government is taking every step that we need to take in order to sort out the broken water system that we inherited from water system that we inherited from the previous government.

13:11

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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The situation at Thames Water is deeply disturbing full stop in my constituency, the home of Surfers Against Sewage, there is no anxiety that this commercial insecurity will spread. There have been no meaningful penalties under the conservative row, so isn't it clear that they prioritise the polluters instead of protecting the environment and consumers? environment and consumers?

13:12

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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He gives me an opportunity to congratulate Surfers Against Sewage to highlight the amazing work they've carried out to point out the shortcomings of the last government? We will take action against it and make those responsible for it accountable for once.

13:12

Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)

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I called for Thames Water to be put into special administration in this chamber in September 2 protect my constituents water bills. These benches continue to put their head benches continue to put their head in the sands. Will the act now, put us all out of our misery and put them into special administration?

13:13

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Minister.

13:13

Rt Hon Sir Julian Smith MP (Skipton and Ripon, Conservative)

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As I said earlier in the session, the government stands ready for all eventualities should they be needed.

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Over a year ago, I spoke to one of the then biggest investors in Thames Water and I was struck by the fact that they said they'd never fact that they said they'd never been in the room with the regulator, other investors or other stakeholders? Can I urge him to stakeholders? Can I urge him to resolve this issue rapidly and do as

13:13

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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resolve this issue rapidly and do as much as possible in the background to bring the stakeholders the best result?

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I thank him for his question. I think he is referring to the failures of the regulatory system. You will see that Sir John Cunliffe You will see that Sir John Cunliffe reported today and pointed out the

13:14

Luke Taylor MP (Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)

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reported today and pointed out the same problems. I'm sure he will want to pay attention to the comments the

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Honourable gentleman has just made. The British public are not full is. They know that the emperor has no clothes and indeed when a no clothes and indeed when a regulator has no teeth. Of what has failed, just as Thames Water has

13:14

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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failed, just as Thames Water has failed. Will the government scrap of what and replace them with a regulator who can and this -- will the government scrap of what? -- The Water (Special Measures) Bill gives the regulator the power they lacked previously to ban those unfair, unjustified, multi-million pound bonuses that so outraged the public as those companies profited from pollution.

13:15

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thames Water has failed my constituents time and time again. Clearly, it needs investment. Could he lay out what he is doing to provide confidence for investment in our water sector?

13:15

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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He makes a very good point. And part of making the sector more investor friendly is to ensure we have a more predictable and robust regulatory framework. That is what regulatory framework. That is what Sir John Cunliffe is looking at. He might have had the chance to look at the report. If he hasn't, I would recommend it to him. That is the way we can bring in the money that will allow us to fix our broken water allow us to fix our broken water system once and for all.

13:15

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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I draw attention to my register of interests. -- My entry in the register of interests. Sewage flows into the garden of my constituents plus my garden. One third Of bills is currently used to service the debt of that company. Why will the Secretary of State not recognise that Thames Water is financially unviable, bring it into specialist administration and ensure that the future company serves public interest? interest?

13:16

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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He points to a graphic example of what happens when we have the scale of regulatory failure we had under the last government. That is what Sir John Cunliffe points out in his report. I hope he gives feedback to Sir Duncan the. I would also like to remind the honourable gentleman that the government has helped to secure £104 billion of private sector investment. That money will be spent to upgrade exactly the kind of facilities that he is pointing to that are letting down his constituents, mine and everyone

13:17

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

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My special measures to save my constituents's and bill payers money? It is only a matter of time for Thames Water. Will he act now and save money?

13:17

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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I share his anger that the public have been left to pay the price of Tory failure over 14 years. One of the first things I did when appointed Secretary of State for the Environment, I got water company chief executives into my office and got them to commit to ring first thing -- ring fencing public money so it can never be used for dividends, the way the previous government allowed to happen.

13:18

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I think the Secretary of State for his answers and his perseverance in this subject. The Secretary of State will understand this is disappointing, public funding may have to be used, some 8,000 employees, and serving 25 percent of employees, and serving 25 percent of the UK population. What efforts are taking to ensure it is not money out of the drain?

13:18

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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We are ready for every eventuality, teams are ready to carry that out. I have no intention of throwing public money to bail this company. We are looking for a market led solution to the challenges they are facing. I thank him for his kind personal words. We will keep persevering until we have cleaned up our waterways for good.

13:19

Rt Hon Victoria Atkins MP (Louth and Horncastle, Conservative)

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Point of order, not continuing

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the argument though, is it? Just to correct the record,

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Just to correct the record, because the Secretary of State has given the impression in his answers, I am sure not intending to, that the investigations that he is very proud of from July of last year were as a of from July of last year were as a direct result of them winning the election in July, that is incorrect, election in July, that is incorrect, because he, courtesy of a press

13:19

Mr Speaker

because he, courtesy of a press release on 20 February last year, we invested some £55 million into further investigations...

13:20

Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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I am not responsible for the correction, you have put it on the record. If the Secretary of State wants to come by, if not we will move on.

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A point of order,... Tried to

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A point of order,... Tried to save her son, an Amnesty International prisoner of conscience International prisoner of conscience who has been in jail more than a decade because of his writings on decade because of his writings on democracy. His mother is now at dash

13:20

Mr Speaker

democracy. His mother is now at dash Mikey is now at risk of death. What action is being taken to ensure his

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urgent release? I have had no message to say the government are coming today but I would say it is certainly on the record and I note the Prime Minister also noted the question made to him.

13:21

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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also noted the question made to him. I'm sure government benches have heard the mention.

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Yesterday in relation to the publication of the strategic defence review hardcopy document I informed review hardcopy document I informed you I was aware at least two major you I was aware at least two major defence companies had been given a copy of the document at 8 AM yesterday morning. Looking at the market, at 8 AM yesterday morning, market, at 8 AM yesterday morning, the share price of one of those the share price of one of those companies spiked at that time.

In companies spiked at that time. In the Ministerial Code of publication and consultation papers, it is clear and consultation papers, it is clear that were commercially sensitive material is involved, no copy should be available to the media before be available to the media before publication to avoid these potential publication to avoid these potential effects that come with privileged information made available to other companies. I seek your advice on how to pursue this further and whether you have heard from the government that they are making any statements or taking any steps to investigate these matters? these matters?

13:22

Mr Speaker

I would say I have had no indication that ministers intend to come to the House to make a statement. What I would say is, it is on the record. I know the shadow Secretary of State... I suspect he will be on his way to the Table Office to see what advice he can be given to pursue this matter. We now come to that Ten Minute Rule Motion.

13:22

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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I beg to move that leave the given to bring in a bill to make provision for the report on the potential merits of appointing a commissioner to consider, investigate and make recommendations to address welfare issues raised by personnel serving in the Royal Fleet personnel serving in the Royal Fleet exhilarate and their families. Founded in 1905, this year marks the 120th anniversary of the world Fleet exhilarate. In those 120 years, personnel have developed a proud sense of independence, they are non-military, merchant need the sailors who supply the Navy and Marines, and they have a steadfast occasion to public service.

A lot of their work happens behind-the- scenes. They do not offer make the headlines but they are vital to UK defence, maritime power and humanitarian and disaster relief. The RFA refuel warships at sea, delivers ammunition, supplies, food and water. It transports Royal Marines and equipment were they are needed. Ships were in the Falklands, Kosovo, the first Gulf War, Iraq and Kosovo, the first Gulf War, Iraq and Afghanistan. RAF personnel are not armed competence. Recent deployments have included anti-norm at -- antinarcotics.

The provision of a disaster relief to Haiti in 2010 and 2021, anti-people smuggling operations in the Mediterranean and the provision of humanitarian aid to Gaza. The RFA was instrumental in responding to the security threats responding to the security threats posed by the Russian vessel in the North Sea last November. The security threat to subsea energy and communications infrastructure is an increasing part of Royal Navy and RFA work to enhance security. As RFA ships are calling the port of Falmouth in my constituency their home, I have watched them sail in and out of the bay.

I remember watching one depart in October 2014 to deploy on the West Coast of Africa during the Ebola pandemic. She provided crucial medical equipment, supplies, food and transport to doctors, nurses and military personnel. On her return, she was honoured with a reward letter of commendation. I've highlighted these examples to show how important and varied RFA operations are. There is no doubt that RFA personnel are incredibly hard-working, committed and courageous. Due to the unique nature of their service, they often do not receive the same level of protection and recognition as the rest of the forces.

In recent years, the RFA has two face challenges, resources are stretched, the RFA have taken on more and more jobs previously done more and more jobs previously done by the Royal Navy. At the same time, there is an ageing fleet and crew shortages, only six of 11 RFA ships currently operational and skilled positions are understaffed by 30 to 50 percent. The UK carrier strike group in the Pacific Ocean is relying on the Norwegian Navy for support capacity due to the RFA Victoria being nonoperational.

The four Victoria is over 35 years old and a replacement for the UK's only solid support ship is not expected until the end of 2030. It is crucial for UK security and impact on the world stage that the RFA is properly resourced and I welcome the Secretary of State's commitment to the RFA during his statement on the strategic defence review yesterday. The recruitment and retention crisis in the RFA have been fuelled by issues with pay, terms and conditions.

The 2024 report commissioned by the Ministry of Defence found the RFA lever ratio was 120.69, and the RFA offered less time off per day works than any other sector. Officers experienced a real terms pay cut of over 30 percent since 2010, the report stated the RFA's offering pay is lower than the market average for lower than the market average for the next day rate in every benchmark. I was pleased to see the pay deal agreed earlier this year by this government.

Alongside a pay increase, there was a commitment to improved pay and conditions, including the reducing the length of consignments, and bargaining agreement between the RFA and trade unions. I hope this is just the beginning and we hope to go further and do more to support RFA personnel. As part of this, I am proposing is the Armed Forces commissioner will be an independent direct point of contact for the forces personnel to raise complaints and welfare issues, but there should be an equivalent or the bill should include the RFA.

It would mean RFA personnel could raise concerns about bullying, unsafe working conditions, discrimination or misconduct. But inclusion under the Armed Forces commissioner's remit or that of a separate commissioner would not change the RFA's legal status. It would not militarise the RFA which would retain a separate identity that is personnel are so proud of. The unions should rightly have a say in proposals for a commissioner that encompasses the RFA. The Armed Forces commissioner will supersede the previous service complaints commissioner whose remit was much narrower.

It follows through on the promise made by the Labour government to renew the contract between the nation and those who serve. That contract should not end at the gates of a naval base or the stern of an auxiliary ship. It Of RFA personnel. The families of servicemen and women will now also be able to raise issues with the commissioner and if the RFA came under the commission's remit, their families would benefit from this also. Partners and children of those personnel forces and RFA are alone for long stretches of time.

We note service takes a toll not only on those in uniform but those around them. They need that support and scaffolding. I am aware of this as a former Navy wife. We cannot claim to support forces if we do not support those in auxiliaries roles, the Facilitate the global deployments, the RFA must not be an afterthought in defence policy. We need to provide RFA personnel with decent pay, conditions, career progression, equal time of and modern vessels to reflect the importance of the role they play in an ever-changing,

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dangerous world, now more than ever. That the honourable member have

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That the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. The question is the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. The As many as are of that opinion, say, As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The Who will prepare and bring the bill?

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Anna Gelderd, Andrew George, Anneliese Midgley, Ben Maguire, Anneliese Midgley, Ben Maguire, Chris Bloore, Graeme Downie, Jacob Collier, Lawrence Turner, Luke Collier, Lawrence Turner, Luke Akehurst, Noah Law, Perran Moon, and myself.

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Royal Royal Fleet Royal Fleet Auxiliary Royal Fleet Auxiliary (Report Royal Fleet Auxiliary (Report on Commissioner) Bill.

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Second Reading what day? Friday 20th of June.

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Friday 20th of June. Friday 20th of June. Programme

13:31

Consideration of Lords amendments: Armed Forces Commissioner Bill: Consideration of Lords Amendments

13:36

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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that this government feels strongly about. It is the reason why we are

13:36

Consideration of Lords amendments: Armed Forces Commissioner Bill: Consideration of Lords Amendments

about. It is the reason why we are ready forward legislation that will implement the Armed Forces Covenant on a national basis fully into law. So does not just grip local

13:36

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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13:54

Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)

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Amendment one. Perhaps by your leave I could

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Perhaps by your leave I could begin by just referring briefly to the honourable Lady for Truman the honourable Lady for Truman farmers's Ten Minute Rule Bill, which immediately preceded this debate. As a Navy wife she clearly understands the role of the Royal Fleet Artillery, as the son of someone who served in the Royal Navy and the Second World War have grown up to appreciate everything the RFA do for us. They are a wonderful organisation, and as someone who was sitting here at the Dispatch Box throughout her speech, we wish to bail all our best.

Turning directly to the bill, as the shadow Armed Forces Minister I rise as a critical friend of the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, driven by a commitment to ensuring it delivers real and meaningful support for the brave men and women serve our country. Our Armed Forces personnel deserve a system that honours their sacrifice and guarantees fairness, accountability, and transparency when concerns arise. To recap the bill at its core seeks to strengthen oversight by introducing a commissioner, with relevant sites and information for investigations.

If implemented well this could improve the lived experience of our service men and women, bolstering public confidence in how issues are handled. A truly independent well resourced Commissioner is a vision I believe commands support right across the House. Saying that, where our Reform? This is legislation which is designed to enhance the welfare of our Armed Forces and their families. Why aren't they their families. Why aren't they here? Having checked in Hansard, they weren't here yesterday eager.

They took no part in either of the urgent questions, and no part whatsoever in the statement on the very long debate that followed it. Why? Because reform don't do defence. They are one club golfers with one single issue. That unfortunately the welfare of Armed Forces personnel and their families doesn't appear to be one of them, as the empty benches speak volumes. And by the way, are the SNP via either? They don't take very seriously

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either. Thank you for giving way, I am pleased he raised this point. I have pleased he raised this point. I have sat in this House I think for all the occasions we have discussed defence, I was also sorry to note defence, I was also sorry to note they were reform members here for they were reform members here for the VE day debate. Does this show a complete dereliction of a party that

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aims to govern? For a party that sometimes likes to wrap itself in the flag, if I can to wrap itself in the flag, if I can put it like that, you would think that when it came to our Armed Forces they would be more bothered. But empirically, that's not always the case. We are not allowed to take photographs in the chamber, it's a mortal sin, and interview without mortal sin, and interview without coffee friends for you or the speaker.

If we were allowed to take such a photo, or if someone else perhaps outside the House wanted to take such a photo, those empty benches speak volumes. Now, at the heart of the amendments we are debating today is the issue of whistleblowing. This was admittedly not an issue as the Minister I think would testify, which was much discussed at the committee stage back here in March. At that time the two real key issues that emerged were the potential adverse effects of inheritance tax changes on death and service -- death in-service payments, on which nothing has been done, and VAT on school fees.

We eagerly await the outcome of the High Court case. That brings me to the critical issue debated at some length in the other place, and now before us, the need to empower the Commissioner to investigate concerns raised by whistleblowers whilst protecting their anonymity. In the other place our opposition spokesperson argued passionately that the Commissioner should have explicit authority to investigate whistleblowing concerns within the scope of this bill, centred on welfare and general issues to ensure those raising concerns, whether service personnel or their families or friends, can do so anonymously.

The Minister in a letter dated on 30 May outlined Baroness Goldie's amendments raised an important debate. He says today that they were well-intentioned, and we agree. The government however contends, here's where we don't agree, that existing mechanisms, a confidential hotline, investigation teams and improved complaints procedures are sufficient. They argue our amendment is not necessary because it does not confer additional power Zondo Commission. -- On the Commissioner.

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The chief of the general staff said he was ashamed by the stories said he was ashamed by the stories of sexual misconduct, predominantly of sexual misconduct, predominantly crimes committed against women in service. He also said there were service. He also said there were lots of these crimes that weren't reported, so lots that were not known as well as the terrible ones known as well as the terrible ones that were known. How can we have a truly effective independent commissioner there's not a whistleblowing function which these

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crimes can be committed? The honourable gentleman makes some powerful arguments, I hope if time allows he will also make a time allows he will also make a The government itself acknowledges that the commissioner provides an enhanced route for raising concerns. enhanced route for raising concerns. Our amendments build on this by having a clear, accessible, and statutory protected whistleblowing function. This Obesity vital to ensuring that service personnel, especially those who feel vulnerable, can come forward without fear.

The government has further argued that whistleblowing lacks a clear legal definition. However, this claim is simply untenable. As Baroness Goldie powerfully highlighted in the other place, section 340Q of the Armed Forces Act 2006 titled "Investigations and concerns raised by whistleblowers ", concerns raised by whistleblowers ", and section 43B of the Police Reform Act 2000 and to provide clear statutory precedent for the term. This demonstrates concluding whistleblowing adds tangible benefit to the legislation, ensuring protection. If whistleblowing is robust enough for the Police Reform Act and for the very acts that this bill is designed to amend, how can the government argue it lacks clarity or value in this context? Let me address the government's contradictory stance.

The committee stage in the other place, we proposed a broader amendment to empower the commissioner. In the other place, the Ministry of Defence dismissed it as too wide-ranging. In the spirit of constructive compromise, which has been the general tenure of the bill throughout, we narrowed our amendments to focus specifically on welfare and service issues. Now the government claims this revised amendment is too narrow. And does not grant sufficient powers. This inconsistency displays reluctance to engage with the substance of our proposal.

To illustrate my point, let me offer two quick theoretical examples to the House. First, let's consider the possibility of whistleblower being someone who served in the British Army in Northern Ireland. This is an extremely topical issue at present, as the Minister will be aware, given the government's appalling remedial orders to exercise key parts of the Northern Ireland Acts 2023. I don't know whether any Armed Forces personnel served, or indeed are still serving, in Northern Ireland, will have privately signed the parliamentary petition entitled " Protect Northern Ireland veterans from prosecutions.

" But I can say that, as of today, over 131,000 people have signed it. We therefore look forward to an early debate, in parliaments, on these matters. While we are of course in the hands of the Petitions Committee, not you on this occasion Madam Deputy Speaker, we are very hopeful that the Petitions Committee might allow for a debate to take place as soon as possible, and certainly prior to the summer recess. I see honourable members on the other side of the house nodding, so I'm keen to get that into Hansard.

Thank you. Secondly, let us consider the theoretical example of an officer serving as a military assistant to a minister on the fifth floor of the Minister of Defence. What protection in law will that officer have if they became seriously concerned that the Minister they were working for was about to reach the Ministerial Code? Not of course that we think of any here today that would. How would an officer faced with such a moral dilemma of that magnitude be permitted to act as a whistleblower in order to raise concerns that ministers have acted inappropriately? Something which would certainly impact upon their general welfare, as well as the reputation of the government.

We will see if the Minister has anything to add before we conclude. In summary, because I know others are keen to speak, the government has offered assurances about anonymity in the commissioner's work. And promised a communications campaign to raise awareness of the role. These steps are welcome but not enough. A communication campaign is no substitute for a clear statutory whistleblowing provision that service personnel can rely on with confidence. The other place recognise this, delivering a significant cross-party defeat to the government last month when Conservative peers alongside others successfully amended this bill to include robust Anonymous whistleblowing routes.

This amendment is not just about process it is about rebuilding trust. I will listen closely to the Minister's response, the government can't move beyond its current position, it continues to offer assurances but without real statutory weights, and we find the amendment in lieu unconvincing, we will have no choice but to test the opinion of the house. We omit to our service personnel to ensure their voices are heard, and I said properly investigated. With that I will rest.

14:06

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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Chair of the Defence Select Committee. As we consider the Lords Amendments to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, I welcome the opportunity to reflect on the progress made, and the important issues these amendments address.. First I am pleased to support Lords Amendment one, four, five, and six which enhanced pulmonary oversight of secondary legislation under the bill. The government supports these amendments as a positive step towards creating transparency, and accountability in the implementation of this important legislation.

I also want to highlight the significance of whistleblower protection. Lords Amendments two and three rightly draw attention to the need to safeguard those coming forward with concerns. I welcome His Majesty's Official Opposition efforts to bring attention to this issue, and to the government's commitment to this principle, particularly through the amendments they have tabled which aim to protect the anonymity of individuals making complaints. This is essential to fostering a culture of openness and trust within our Armed Forces. And ensuring the Armed Forces Commissioner has the confidence of Commissioner has the confidence of serving personnel and those who may complain.

I'm grateful to the Armed Forces Minister for his clarification on this matter just now. As chair of the Defence Committee, I want to reiterate that our committee very much look forward to holding a pre-appointment hearing that Secretary of State's preferred candidate for the first Armed Forces Commissioner. It is a vital step in ensuring the independence and effectiveness in this new office. Finally, as this is likely a lost opportunity to debate the bill in this House I look forward to its passage into law. I would like to thank all those who have been involved in drafting and amending this bill, as it has made its way through both houses.

14:08

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrats Spokesperson.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to speak in support of Lords rise to speak in support of Lords Amendments two and three to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill. Amendments that were tabled by a Amendments that were tabled by a Conservative peer Baroness Goldie, and supported in the other place by my Liberal Democrat colleagues. I my Liberal Democrat colleagues. I urge members on all sides to reject the government's proposals to remove them and replace them with a watered-down version. These watered-down version.

These amendments do something quite simple and profoundly important, daybed in and profoundly important, daybed in the commissioner's role a clear and explicit whistleblowing function or letting service personnel and their families raise concerns about families raise concerns about welfare safely and with confidence. And crucially, one that provides And crucially, one that provides statutory protections for those who speak up. A complaints process and whistleblowing protection is two systems. A complaint is often about personal redress whistleblowing disclosures about drawing attention to serious wrongdoing, often at great personal risk, the public interest.

The government's amendment acknowledges the importance of anonymity but it does not go far enough. It merely inserts a provision to protect identifying details in publishing reports, and only when the disclosure was in response to a request. It neither defines nor protects whistleblowers in statute. Whistleblowing is a in statute. Whistleblowing is a vital tool in dealing with systemic failure, something that is clearly needed for our service personnel. It seems like almost every month brave service personnel veterans come forward with shocking counts of misconduct.

Their accounts underline how much courage it takes to speak up, and how easily that courage can be crushed by fear of social backlash, reprisal, or career damage. The government argue that anyone can raise a concern with the commissioner and data protection law already protects anonymity. But data protection is not the same as whistleblowing protection. It is passive, it does not actively encourage disclosures, it does not instil confidence, and it does not give status or safeguards against retaliation. Whistleblowing amendment simply recognise whistleblowing for what is, unique and necessary channel for uncovering wrongdoing that might otherwise be wrongdoing that might otherwise be blurred.

They are tightly drawn limited to welfare matters and designed to ensure that information which is someone with the authority to act. The commissioner will be tasked with improving the culture and confidence in our Armed Forces. Nothing will do more to support that mission and keeping the amendment introducing the whistleblowing function, our brave service personnel and their families an independent trusted person to whom they can speak safely be heard without fear. I will be voting against the government motion to remove Amendment 254. I urge colleagues to do the same.

These amendments give confidence to those who wish to speak up but are afraid of the consequences. Whistleblowing is a simple, clear, and well understood term can provide that extra assurance. It can make this

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bill truly transformative to the Armed Forces Commissioner. Thank you. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Strategic Defence Review yesterday

14:11

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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Strategic Defence Review yesterday rightly put our brave service personnel at the heart of defence plan. This bill is a fundamental part of renewing the nation's contract with our Armed Forces. It was an honour to serve on the Public Bill Committee for this House. I'm pleased to see the amendments made in the other place to improve the bill. However, I support the government amendment A in lieu of Lords Amendments two 1915-23. Lords Amendments 23 would introduce a new general function of the commissioner to investigate concerns raised by whistleblowers in relation to the welfare of persons subject to service law and relevant family members.

But the House will know that the commissioner can already investigate any general service matters that they choose. And the bill already allows anyone who wishes to raise such an issue to do so. So while the Lords Amendments have been important in raising issues around anonymity for whistleblowers, I think the government amendment in low would go further in ensuring genuine

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protection of people who raise an issue which later features in an investigation report by the commissioner. Calvin Bailey. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to speak to clause 4 in lieu of Lords Amendments two 1915-23. We have seen time and time again how have seen time and time again how important is to let service personnel speak up, ensuring that safety and well-being of our Armed Forces and the success of critical Forces and the success of critical missions. The 1994 on Mull of Kintyre crash, the 2005 loss, and Kintyre crash, the 2005 loss, and Kintyre crash, the 2005 loss, and that 2006 loss of XV230 servers that 2006 loss of XV230 servers reminders of what can happen when concerns are not reported.

So I welcome the government protecting welcome the government protecting anonymity to make sure that no identifiable information, or information could lead to identification, is included without the explicit consent of service members. I also welcome the government's assurance to update the MoD's raising concern policy to reflect civilian protections, and ensure that all individuals who come forward can do so with guaranteed anonymity and confidentiality.

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I thank him for giving way. Does

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I thank him for giving way. Does he agree with me that, in referencing these awful disasters, it really brings into focus the lack it really brings into focus the lack of public awareness of the lack of support that has been there for our Armed Forces in previous years, this landmark bill will transform the culture in our forces in a positive way is long overdue?

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way is long overdue? I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for her intervention. She makes a very important point. This bill marks a culture change in how the government culture change in how the government goes about interacting with its armed forces, and provide them with a sense of pride and also the necessary process to ensure that their service is protected and treated with dignity and respect. treated with dignity and respect. Ultimately, whether it is reporting on ongoing cultural issues of bullying and sexual harassment, or quality, housing, reporting on equipment safety concerns, every servicemember should feel empowered, and assured, that they can and should speak up.

We have seen how the Armed Forces ombudsman has consistently been unable to ensure that the service complaints system does not disadvantage or discriminate. These findings raise serious concerns, highlighting the critical need for new empowered Armed Forces Commissioner to again gain the trust of servicemembers was building this trust is more important than simply an act of new legislation. To achieve this, it is essential that servicemembers feel confident that their complaints will be handled anonymously and fairly. Ultimately, fostering a culture of trust within the Armed Forces must take precedence over the specific language of legislation.

It is the practical implementation, buy in from the chain of command, and commitment to the fair treatment for all that will truly make a difference. I recognise that this government has committed to renewing our country's contract with those you serve. The introduction of an Armed Forces Commissioner is an important step to doing this. The success of the Armed Forces Commissioner largely depends on the effective implementation of this act. The willingness of the chain of command to work with the commissioner. However, governments must ensure that the service complaints system tackles that deep-rooted systemic issues that persist within both the Armed Forces, recognising that the establishment of the Armed Forces Commissioner is only one part of a much needed broader reform, not that Reform, to restore trust and deliver meaningful challenge for all of those who serve.

14:16

Luke Pollard MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I would like to respond to the debate in the time I have. I thank all members on behalf of the government for their contributions to this debate. It's clear there is widespread support for the principle of introducing an Armed Forces Commissioner, for the Commissioner to have a remit that includes relevant family members, and for us to get on and implement it well. Which I can assure the shadow Minister is our intention to do so. If I can just refer to a number of points raised within the debate today, perhaps if I can first respond to the honourable gentleman who spoke just before me.

I entirely agree with him we need to make sure the system works. The bill today is designed not to just deal with the ombudsman as it currently exists into the Commissioner's office, but it is designed to expand the powers which is something the current ombudsman has been asking for in her annual reports. And we reflect without expanded remit in the bill we see in front of us. I share his determination to see an improved system, I would like to place on record my thanks to Marion Hughes, the current ombudsman, for her work in especially reducing the backlog of service complaints that weren't addressed.

We saw and heard about the progress that has been made, that was welcome I think. I am certain that improvement is going to be embedded in the work of the Armed Forces Commissioner as well. In relation to the issue that the shadow Minister raised around Northern Ireland veterans, we owe our veterans from Operation Banner a huge debt of gratitude. Professionalism and sacrifice saved lives in Northern Ireland and across the UK, and helped bring about peace. There will be no rewriting of history.

The previous government's woeful legacy act did nothing to help those veterans though, it was found to be unlawful over and over again by UK courts, and any incoming government at the last general election would have had to repeal and replace this unlawful legislation. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. We must ensure there are legacy mechanisms in place that are fair, lawful and proportionate, we are working hard to make sure veterans welfare and legal services are provided so anyone involved in any investigation gets the support they require, and we can minimise impact on this unique group of veterans.

As we replace the previous government's woeful legacy act we will be prioritising and strengthening protections to ensure the dignity and respect of veterans, I know colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office look forward to further discussions in the debate should the

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commissions permit it. It's often been said about the

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It's often been said about the courts having rejected the legacy act, at least in part. I'm not sure of which part they specifically rejected, but I would like to remind rejected, but I would like to remind the ministerial team that in 2017 the then Defence Committee examined in great detail whether or not it would be legal to have a statute of would be legal to have a statute of limitation that would put an end to limitation that would put an end to these prosecutions, and for professors of law, including Philippe Sandler, agreed that it was as long as there was an investigator process, possibly embodied in a process, possibly embodied in a truths recovery process.

So when they bring forward whatever alternative legislation to the legacy act they are going to bring forward, will they make sure that a statute of limit -- limitation is part of it.

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He and I have had many discussions, and I'm very aware that discussions, and I'm very aware that the honourable member for Slough may the honourable member for Slough may have further interest for this on his committee later today. I will make sure colleagues in the Northern

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make sure colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office have heard. 131,000 people don't agree with

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131,000 people don't agree with what the Minister just said very clearly. But if he is so confident in the government's case, can he just say on the record that he would just say on the record that he would welcome their proposals being debated in Parliament, for at least debated in Parliament, for at least three hours, before the summer recess. Presumably he's not frightened of a debate. Could you

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frightened of a debate. Could you put that on the record? I already had before the honourable gentleman interrupted, it was the last line I said before a gateway to the honourable gentleman behind him. I think there's a good issue that needs to be debated, this place should debate issues of concern to the British people. It should also be the forum where we challenge and test those arguments. Indeed, the courts have already tested the act, found it to be unlawful.

That's why any government would need to look at it again, and why colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office are doing so. Any of that bill would be brought forward to the house for such a discussion, which I'm happy to concern. Can I turn to be whistleblowing protections that was raised by the Liberal Democrat spokesperson Andy shadow Minister oppositely. As I mentioned, I agree the term whistleblowing does exist, I mentioned it in my remarks earlier. However, as I said, simply using the term in the bill has no practical term in the bill has no practical legal effects and provides no protections or powers in the bill that don't already exist or are provided for in the government amendment.

Indeed, the government amendment goes further than the amendments both members spoke to. In that respect, trying to understand the difference and practical effect that is being spoken about, there is no difference effectively in what would be proposed and what is already in the bill. However I entirely take the spirit that both members raised this important issue. We know there are issues in terms of culture within our Armed Forces. The Defence Secretary and the whole ministerial team at the Ministry of Defence have been clear there is no place for them, and we are making culture change.

Indeed, I believe that is what the contributions about our senior officers having made similar statements show, from the top to the bottom of our Armed Forces there is no place for any abuse. And that is something that a abuse. And that is something that a zero tolerance policy must do. I try to understand the legal effects that would change to the Bill, I'm not sure amendments to 13 make such legal effects, however I welcome this debate. The more opportunities this debate.

The more opportunities we have as a parliament to put on record our strong cross-party support for a zero tolerance approach, the shadow Minister is pointing to the benches, I'm not a golf player so not sure I could make that argument, as a hockey player you only need one stick. The strong cross-party position from all parties that were here is that there is no place for abuse in our Armed Forces, no place for a culture of intimidation. And indeed the powers already contained in this bill provide an opportunity for people to raise concerns outside the chain of command, that is what the government amendment seeks to do.

Recognising the additional commitments I have given to the House today that we can further strengthen this with those actions. Without in mind, I commend this bill to the house.

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The question is that this house agrees with the Lords in amendment one. As many as are of that opinion, one. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye", of the contrary, "No". I say, "Aye", of the contrary, "No". I think the ayes have it. We now come to the motion to disagree with Lords to the motion to disagree with Lords Amendments to I call the Minister to move the motion. The question is move the motion. The question is that this house disagrees with the Lords in amendment number two.

As many as are of that opinion, say,

14:24

Division

15:04

Consideration of Lords message: Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]: Consideration of Lords Message

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have it. Data (Use and Access) Bill.

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Consideration of Lords message. We will now consider that the government motion to disagree with government motion to disagree with Lords Amendment 49F. I call the Lords Amendment 49F. I call the Minister to move the motion to disagree with Lords Amendment 49F.

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disagree with Lords Amendment 49F. I beg to move that this House disagrees with the Lord in their

15:04

Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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15:30

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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The question is that this house disagrees with the Lords in their disagrees with the Lords in their

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Back again. It feels a bit like

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Back again. It feels a bit like Groundhog Day. I am a Bill Murray fund and I must confess I think fund and I must confess I think Groundhog Day is a great movie but I recognise members on both sides of the House may not have been born when Groundhog Day was released when Groundhog Day was released which makes me feel a little bit old. I do feel the need to explain the plot a little. A man setting his the plot a little.

A man setting his ways is sent to Pennsylvania to report on Groundhog Day and found himself in a time loop where he himself in a time loop where he lives the same day over and over again. And in due course needs to again. And in due course needs to despair but eventually this gives them the opportunity to learn from them the opportunity to learn from his mistakes. The time loops can be seen as a blessing or an opportunity not a curse. And through the course of the film he develops and grows and changes.

He then breaks out of the time loop to live happily ever after. We are stuck in Groundhog Day in this bill. Until the government realises the Lords Amendments are not a nuisance but an opportunity. And they need to listen to the concerns and change course. The noble Lords, the house in which this bill started have made clear the risk to creatives and AI companies taking their data and the importance of fairness and transparency. We on these benches and indeed across both sides of the House have raised concerns but we do not have the numbers yet.

In Parliament it is not sufficient to win the vote, it is also necessary to win the argument. The government has lost this argument. Copyright law is a toothless instrument to lack of transparency about the use of creative content as AI models continue. The lack of transparency read the rights enforcement elusive and the government are apparently happy for this to persist on an open-ended basis. While the government's direction of travel remains uncertain everyone loses out. Creatives continue to lose out when their workers exploded without payment.

The AI industry especially small firms cannot get out of the starting blocks unless they all play their part in turbocharging our tech economy. The government continues to risk the confidence of both... With the chilling effect this investment entails. Of course we are sensitive to the constitutional principles, a topic which the noble Lords were very mindful of in the speeches in the other place. The Ministers -- Minister is right. It is unprecedented to return to a bill so many times. But rather than use this as a reason to try and push through this bill, it is evidence of the strength of feeling and need for the government to listen.

We all know the government will have to respond to these concerns, their position will have to change and Madam Deputy Speaker, I would have loved to have entered this speech with a literary quote suitable for this debate and I envy the Minister's ability to always bring a flare to these discussions that we have had across the Dispatch Box. Instead I will fall back on a political one, compromise is the oil that makes governments go. The government should meet in the comprise they have offered, put oil in the engines of our creative AI industries and

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bring an end to this Groundhog Day. I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

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Thank you. Here we are again. Once again I would like to thank Once again I would like to thank those in the other place who have worked so hard on these amendments and indeed numbers across the House you have -- who have stood up for you have -- who have stood up for creatives. We are here again two

15:34

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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weeks later and back to debate the amendment and the rights of creatives in the face of changing AI full stopped has changed in those two weeks? An awful lot actually. 48 was before we voted on this amendment on 20 May, the latest big AI technology code and Google launched the VO three. The literally all talking, all singing, all dancing AI video creator. Something like we have never seen before. Seeing is believing and even when you see it, you will not believe or will not always be able to believe what you are seeing is real.

The emotions of the characters created by binary code, a series of zeros and ones have already had me laughing, feeling, thinking. Their jokes are like standard comedians. The light and the sunset comparable to those standing at the Ashridge Beach on a perfect day as Golden hour arrives. The tangible fear of the binary characters representing the actress, the Director and the artist questioning what this means for them? The engineering, the development and dare I say it, the creativity that has gone into developing software like this is epic.

There is no denying it. I cannot help but wonder if all of the value came from the engineering, computing but what about the period dramas? The beauty of the children's illustration? The wit of the one- liner? And the fast-paced thrillers that help to train this cinematic experience at the touch of a prompt? As far as I can discover Google representatives have previously mentioned YouTube may have been used to train the model as well as publicly of content. I wonder how many must feel who see their creations replicated? Of course this is just one example of the AI developments happening every minute.

The alarm bell that creatives have been ringing has come to fruition at -- 1,000 times over. As much as I'm sure many creatives are excited about the possibilities, any will be questioning the imprecations for the industry. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Just this afternoon I spoke to creatives from the creative writing alliance you have proof of their work being essentially copied against their will. Artists, writers, photographers, filmmakers, singers and songwriters are watching their life work being swallowed up.

I have not even spoken about Livia who writes music or the other developers coming out of AI. Incredible developments we must celebrate but we must also ensure creative work that has gone into it is also valued. Because while technology moves at pace our framework for accountability has not kept up. In this moment as Artificial Intelligence reshapes our creative work shapes used -- workspaces used then the time for reflection is behind us. I appreciate the government talking about protecting rights and the actions they are taking but the time for real action is now.

That is why I urge memos across the House to vote for amendment 49 F to ensure transparency of business data is used in relation to AI models, proportionate approach that calls for transparency full to pay urge the government also to move at pace to create -- to protect creator's rights, something we have heard across the House today. As I walked around the little goddess on offer this weekend and saw the bright colours and the joy which had been created by Sally Bassett, Alison Bates and Andrew Dixon, right at the end of that road of little Galveston village hall is where part of the crowd were filmed and I think of the legendary story many of you may know for Picasso.

While at a Parisian market and admirer approached Picasso and asked him if he could do a quick sketch on a napkin. He kindly obliged, creating art on this napkin. He hands it back but not before asking for Fr.1 million. But it only took you five minutes remarks the admirer. No Picasso replied, it took me 40 years to be able to draw this in five minutes. Given these prompts can create art whether that be song, print, film or story in seconds who is being remunerated for the years of work that have gone into that? I urge members across the House to vote for 49 B we must find a solution to ensure human creativity is truly

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value. Thank you. The Ministers who I like

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The Ministers who I like personally and who I rate a lot unfortunately do not control the unfortunately do not control the timetable of government business. timetable of government business. Secondly they do not have a bill in the King's Speech. Thirdly my prediction is they will be promoted prediction is they will be promoted before this new bill comes to pass. before this new bill comes to pass. The speeches were honest but what they have exposed Madam Deputy they have exposed Madam Deputy Speaker, is there is no time commitment from the government benches whatsoever, and bringing benches whatsoever, and bringing back a bill to this House to address the current theft of property that the current theft of property that is raining down on the UK creative industries.

That is why Madam Deputy Speaker, the creative industries in the debates in the other place we listened to yesterday are so passionate. Theft of the property rights of composers, writers, filmmakers and other creatives have been happening for years, continue to happen and are going to happen until this new bill comes forward. Greater and greater volumes of

15:40

Rt Hon Sir Julian Smith MP (Skipton and Ripon, Conservative)

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intellectual property, hardfought rights falling into the AI hopper rights falling into the AI hopper never to be seen again and no system of redress other than expensive of redress other than expensive legal action to get it back. How would we think this was with our own property? Our own businesses? Our own land? If this was removed own land? If this was removed without even being asked. With the gentle reassurance we could take action retrospectively. Creatives action retrospectively. Creatives are desperate, most do not have the workers rights, the majority of us workers rights, the majority of us have on pensions, holiday pay et cetera.

All they have is their intellectual rights. Where will the incentive be now to toil for weeks, incentive be now to toil for weeks, months, years creating that piece of music and writing that text. Only to have when success arrives it snatched away? As the government returns with the workers rights bill shortly it is an irony that creative workers rights continue to be so eroded. Madam Deputy Speaker, the transparency amendment in front of us today as much diluted version of the previous Kidron of amendments centres by the other place.

The address of a clear timeline of when the government must return with a bill. This is a modest request. The government is still able to delay the bill should they want to. To be honest the creative industries will still not have the opportunity to protect their works meanwhile. But Madam Deputy Speaker, this amendment should be accepted. As it will provide reassurance to a key UK sector. But it should also be accepted as an example of our two chambers respecting each other.

No- one in the debate yesterday hearing the words of Baroness Kidron or Lord Forsyth or others could feel they were trained because the government problems. Each and every supporter of this amendment did so on the basis of support for the rights of one of the leading UK economic sectors who are asking us, pleading with us for their survival and to work positively with this new technological develop in. -- Development. Our politics is currently jampacked with black and white positions and an instinct to jump to disagreement and polarisation.

The amendment before us today from the other place represents a modest proposal to disagree well and the government

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should accept it. I am grateful to you Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not going to say anything but a couple of things have anything but a couple of things have been said over the course of the debate so far that have tempted me debate so far that have tempted me to my feet. The first thing I want to know is just about the House of Lords. I have to say I congratulate Lords. I have to say I congratulate your Lordships and their tenacity on this issue.

I think we all expected and presume they would have back down a long time ago but they have decided not to and I think this is because of what I have heard today. They are backing the sector and this They are backing the sector and this has left them to ensure the voice of our artists and creative industries

15:43

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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our artists and creative industries and creative sector is going to be adequately articulated and presented to Ministers. I congratulate them. I say that as somebody who is still -- who does not have any great respect of the House of Lords because I believe if you are going to rep to legislature use be elected to the legislature. They are entirely entitled to bring forward this again and again until the ministerial team, surely between the two of them could find some kind of compromise.

This is the territory we are in now. The fourth round of ping-pong. It is no point in sending it back again. Of course they can. This is the government. This is a primary house in the Parliament so they can do that if they want. But why did they not just sit down and work out a way forward -- work out a way forward. It looks at everything the Lords want to achieve and secure and meets the noble ambitions and the lofty rhetoric we have heard from the government frontbench today and for the last few times.

I just cannot see anything that is wrong with this amendment. I know and it sounds like the Minister is inventing reasons about why this amendment could not be taken. An example from the Digital Economy Act is spot on. We were adaptable and we did things are situation required in order to meet the challenge of that. It is a huge challenge with digitisation when it was coming into work. This is a bigger challenge and test. This is more existential than the Digital Economy Act of 20 years ago.

This is something we must act now. People cannot wait. Our cultural heritage has been scraped up and hoovered up by large tech companies and soon there will be nothing left of it. Millions of creative artists are waiting for the government to get engaged, sort it out, compromise do something with those that have got an interest in all of this. Because we are convincing no-one thus far. The creative industry do not believe the government has its best intentions at heart.

They do not believe they are going to be of an of time and order to secure what is left of our cultural heritage. Do something. Do not just send it away again as you probably will. Do not just have it come back up. Sit down, compromise, get some thing worked out. For the sake of our creative industries find the solution that works 11 -- that works for everyone.

15:45

We do have some time if the Minister does wish to respond. With Minister does wish to respond. With The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in Amendment 49 F. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the contrary, say, "No." Division. We The The question The question is

15:46

Division:

The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the contrary, "No." Tellers for the contrary, "No." Tellers for the

15:56

Division:Lords amendment 49F: Government Motion To Disagree.

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Lock Lock the Lock the doors. Order, Order, order.

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The

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The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right,

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The ayes to the right, 317. The ayes to the right, 317. The

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noes to the left, 185. The ayes to the right, 317. The

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The ayes to the right, 317. The noes to the left, 185. The ayes have

15:59

noes to the left, 185. The ayes have noes to the left, 185. The ayes have Minister to move that the committee be appointed to draw up.

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be appointed to draw up. I beg to move that a committee be commissioned. Chris Bryant, Ben Spencer, Victoria Collins be members

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of the committee. That the committee to withdraw immediately. The question is that the

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The question is that the committee be appointed to draw up reasons for disagreement to the reasons for disagreement to the Lords for the amendment. Callum Anderson, Luke Myer, Ben Spencer, Anderson, Luke Myer, Ben Spencer, Victoria Collins be members of the committee answer Chris Bryant be committee answer Chris Bryant be chair of the committee and that the committee withdraw immediately. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the contrary, say, "No." The ayes To the contrary, say, "No." The ayes have it.

The ayes have it. That have it. The ayes have it. That includes consideration. Motion number five, minister to move.

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I beg to move. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the contrary, "No." We now come to motion number six. As many as are of motion number six. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the that opinion, say, "Aye." To the We now come to the backbench debate

16:01

Backbench Business: General debate on dementia care

We now come to the backbench debate on dementia care. If Ministers would like a moment to shuffle up on the like a moment to shuffle up on the Front Benches. We now come to the backbench debate on dementia care. Caroline ordered to move.

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Thank you. I beg to move this House has considered dementia care. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this important debate. Members were supporting it as well as the charities and organisations who have provided material. Dementia is undoubtedly one of the most urgent health and Claire -- health and care challenges facing our society. I know most in this chamber will know someone affected by it. My family is currently battling it on two fronts.

My confident, witty, generous father-in-law now almost unrecognisable as the man he used to be, he is lucky to be living in a lovely care home where he receives the best care possible but the decision to move him there was heartbreaking. And my brilliant,

16:02

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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16:25

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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16:33

Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)

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diseases and for understandable reasons. The decade upon decade unlike cancer for example, there has been very little tangible scientific progress. That is until recently. As chair of the APPGs access to medicines and medical devices I would like to focus my remarks on those treatments. Breakthroughs are now coming through thick and fast with the U.K.'s NHRA proving to disease modifying therapies in 2020 2024 file signers. These chart a path to retirement Alzheimer's and other dimensions are treatable conditions. One that can be delayed to a point where it is for all intents and purposes cured.

For families like mine with a history of Alzheimer's it is incredibly exciting. And more is on the way too. There are over 100 medicines currently being investigated so it is not a matter of time or when but if new medicines come. It is not a matter of if but when you medicines come forward. -- New medicines come forward. The UK is not ready, the alarm has been raised and nobody is listening. The last government was asleep at the wheel and I fear this one is too.

Moving from a system focus entirely on care to one treatment will require money mental shift in thinking. It will bring down silos and redistribute budgets for treatment. We know reversing brain damage is nigh on impossible. But preventing it is. That is why early detection and diagnosis is so critical. Dementia begins without symptoms and is as early in your 40s and 50s. We need to be identifying these people before the onset of decline but this requires consistent and sufficient diagnostic capacity. This means improved GP waiting times.

Increased access capacity and memory clinics. A massive increase in MRI, VT and liver puncture test capacity. The lack of capital investment in our NHS has left us dangerously exposed. The lowest number of MRI per capita in the OECD. The UK has 6.1 systems per million people. In Germany it is 30.5. Emerging diagnostics including the blood biomarkers being investigated in Oxfordshire need also to be embraced alongside getting the basics right. The government must also look actively at how National Institute for Clinical Excellence assesses new medical improvements to dementia.

Medications have been approved by the NHRA and rejected by nice on the same day. It means these medical improvements are safe and effective but NICE have rejected them because they are too expensive for the NHS. Let me ask the House this, do we want a system where those who can pay private for medicines that delay dementia treatment and those who cannot do not? Even if the new therapy is approved by the NHRA, given the greenlight by NICE and by some miracle we have diagnostic capacity, patients may still not get their hands on the treatment.

Depending on how new medicines delivered we may not have enough infusion capacity. If it is a pill we will be in luck. We cannot bank on it. The truth is the NHS cannot cope with the innovation we all want in dementia. So my message to the government is simple, get ready. One final point that I hope the Minister will take notes on, please stop hunting problems down to the ICBs. My recent written parliamentary question asking what steps the government is taking to reduce the number of Alzheimer's disease specialists is answered by the Minister for Social Care yesterday and I quote, the provision of dementia Health and Social Care services is the responsibility of

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will. I thank the honourable member forgivingly. I think he is making a very powerful speech especially on very powerful speech especially on that last point. Is he like me, concerned ICBs are going to have funding cut by 50% and dementia is going to be one of the many

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going to be one of the many conditions that will be suffered -- that will suffer because of this? I like him incredibly frustrated that whenever I put concerns to the Minister I get pointed towards the ICBs and when I talk to the ICBs, ICBs and when I talk to the ICBs, they tell me to talk to the Minister. There must be responsibility within our system. responsibility within our system. The Minister has been in politics for longer than I and I hope you allows me to give him a little bit allows me to give him a little bit of advice.

It is not the ICBs the of advice. It is not the ICBs the people in this country are angry about when it comes to not getting the treatment they deserve. It is the government. They expect the the government. They expect the government to take responsibility, not pass the buck.

16:38

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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Thank you. My dad was a GP in Hartlepool for 33 years. When I was young I was never more impressed and when he would talk to me about his medical knowledge, the depth of his knowledge was extraordinary. One of the tricks used to be able to do at any given moment was take any two numbers that I would give him and divide them or multiply them and get the answer right and when I checked on the calculator, it was a rare skill.

His impact on those -- in those 33 years meant when I went into politics the most common thing I heard on the doorstep is are you Doctor Sun? -- Doctors Son? He has told me recently someone has asked him where is the MPs dad? In Hartlepool there are 1299 people living with dementia and my dad is one of them. He was diagnosed with Alzheimer's five years after he retired. Speaking to my mum who obviously is his care as well, we both agree it feels like we have already gone through a form of bereavement.

Because the person who brought me up is not quite there any more. He is happy and enjoys his grandchildren but it is different. That is something I want to see changed for other people. Because early diagnosis is critical. My dad did not get the early diagnosis he should have got. And I think that has paid its consequence as we have gone forward. In Hartlepool we are pioneering a new dementia strategy. I am so proud of Hartlepool Borough Council.

It is part of what they have committed to ensure 100% of their social care staff have dementia training. So this evil disease and I do mean evil when I say it, can be caught and treated better at an earlier stage. Because we have already heard from the honourable member for South Devon only 29% of social care staff in this country at any -- have any form of dementia training and I would urge the Minister that must change. Dementia is the defining Health and Social Care challenge of our time.

Social Care challenge of our time. It impacts one in two of us. Either through being diagnosed ourselves or having someone in our life diagnosed. 50% of the population. Despite this reality too many people living with dementia and their families are struggling to access necessary support. The lack of an integrated care pathway often leads to families being led into fragmented and complex systems. Where they can easily fall through the cracks at each crisis point. Shockingly one in four hospital beds is occupied with a person living with dementia.

And they face hospital readmission rates at 50% higher than the general population. We must improve specialist dementia support. Both in hospitals and in our communities. It is not just a moral imperative. It is likely vital for building the health service we want that is fit for the future. The forthcoming 10-Year Health Plan presents a crucial opportunity for rectifying these shortcomings. Of

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course. I thank my honourable friend. He is making a very powerful speech. 20, I have worked in this area of 20, I have worked in this area of policy and services. I am aware that some of the most powerful advocates some of the most powerful advocates for change in dementia care of people with dementia themselves. And their families. Would you agree with their families. Would you agree with in formulating new strategies and plans around dementia care in the future that people with dementia themselves must be fully included in

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themselves must be fully included in making those plans for the future based on their experiences? I thank my right honourable friend for his intervention. I say friend for his intervention. I say to the House in a completely to the House in a completely unplanned way, the next sentence in my speech is it is essential the voices of those affected by dementia are at the forefront of these NHS reforms so his intervention is very timely and deadly accurate. We must ensure that clinical support and person centred care that reduces the risk of crises and unnecessary hospital admissions comes to the full.

To this end I would urge government Ministers to commit to providing ring-fenced funding for a dementia specialist nurse with -- within each NHS acute trust and integrate specialist nurses such as Admiral nurses who I was so proud to be here with in Parliament recently into multidisciplinary neighbourhood health centres. With one million people currently living with dementia and a number projected to rise as we have already heard today to 1.6 million by 20 to 40 -- by 2040 we cannot afford to delay.

The 2040 we cannot afford to delay. The impacted economic like the economic impact of dementia is estimated to reach 90 billion by 2040 with 40% of care costs barred by families and unpaid carers. It is time for action. One of the consequences of my father's diagnosis without signers is that it does what that evil disease does to so many people. It robs you of your strengths but it exacerbates your weaknesses as well. He struggles now with travel.

Despite being elected in July of last year, I know it is very unlikely he will ever get here to see me stand in Parliament. So in his name, Doctor Charles Brasch, I ask the Minister to act.

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Thank you. Can I say it is a pleasure to follow the honourable gentleman for Hartlepool who has

16:44

Rt Hon Sir Alec Shelbrooke MP (Wetherby and Easingwold, Conservative)

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gentleman for Hartlepool who has really hit the nail on the head about how terrible this diseases. 40 years ago this August my paternal grandfather was dying of lung cancer. My father went to the hospital with him and the day went on and on and on. And eventually he said to my father, go and give your mother a call and let her know where we are at. She answered the phone. I dad said just to let you know mum, we are delayed at hospital and we will be home later on, she says I haven't seen your father in three weeks? At that point he said his blood ran cold.

Tragically my grandfather died just a few weeks later. The funeral came and went. My grand mother said where have all these flowers come from? Within four years my grandmother had to go into a nursing home. The strain that put on my father in that time, making the right decisions, do we sell the House? How are we going to deal with the care? My grandmother was walking the street at 3 AM in the morning. She was leaving the gas on. Neighbours were saying the whole street is going to be destroyed.

You have got to do some thing! She was put in a home. What I have found with the work I have done with dementia is this is often the case in the pattern. The spousal the partner protects like the spouse or the partner protects their partner. They pick up the slack. It is such reticent disease that comes so slowly they do not realise more and more pressure and the more work they more pressure and the more work they Tragically, in 2019, my father-in- law died suddenly and it became apparent he had been hiding the dementia of my mother-in-law.

She had been doing very well. She has got a killer and you can see that there are days where she is still pretty sparky. -- carer. She is 87 years old now. She still remembers me. I will be the person she forgets next because I was last in. It is a sad statement to make that we are moving down that road. I was inspired by something I saw shortly after I got elected in 2010-11 at after I got elected in 2010-11 at the dementia cafe and I quickly realised, and I went to it when it first opened, and I realised people were appreciative of it.

It comes back to what the honourable gentleman for Hartlepool was saying about how cruel the disease is. Because you are slowly supporting a loved one more and more, get to the point where there is enormous pressure and you will not take a step back or get onto Google and try to work out what is going on and especially if we go back 10 years or so. There was a huge amount of voluntary organisations which take voluntary organisations which take , they do a huge amount of support for people with dementia and there are dozens of voluntary organisations which supply an incredible service and it helps to take the pressure off heroes and they get to take people out, take their loved one out.

That can be stimulating. I should an idea. I created the Dementia Directory and created the Dementia Directory and we created one of the first deciduous is that is broken into parts, listing the events which go on and we are working on the new one now. It is complex. It's a bit of a now. It is complex. It's a bit of a spiders web. You try not to miss something. Inevitably you will. When we did the last one, we find the positive impact it had that we are doing it now.

We have got to get this sponsorship. It will make a difference. As the honourable gentleman said, it is a terribly cruel disease. There is a statement which really upsets me and really annoys me and that's the is, "It is not such a bad disease because the person but that does not know they have got an." That is an awful thing to say. I could never hold back tears when I see the advert of the man on the end of the bed and he tells his wife, "I want to go home." How many of us got homesick as children? I got homesick at university.

It is a terrifying thought that as you get older you will not know your partner and be constantly homesick. I have a tip for people who might not know this. for people who might not know this. I've done the training. There was an elderly lady who said that they did not like it because they never got to see their parents and you can get into a memory and you can say, "Your father is down at the allotment." Do not argue with them.

That will make them more upset. Try to take them back to a memory. Another thing the directory does is highlight how you can notice these things and also things that might help like hydration. One of the things that happens with elderly people if they do not want to keep going to the toilet and awarded and so are often sparky in the morning after a cup of tea but by 3 PM they are getting memory lapses because they have not drunk enough and we have to tell people.

I many people in this chamber have somebody there that they were doing the dementia debate and somebody tells them not to forget. Everybody seems to know what it is but no wind of what it means. It is a paradox. Everyone makes the comment about not forgetting but do they understand the depth and impact of the disease? It includes Alzheimer's. I read a book about Ronald Reagan. At the end of said for the last four years of his life he did not open his eyes.

Think about that. What this terrible disease does to people. And all of the impact it has. This debate is about dementia care and there have been many contributions made about things the government can do and I was raising the issue in 2012-13 and David Cameron was Prime Minister at the time and put funding into the search for dementia but the trouble is we have learned how to have preservation of many organs but we never bothered with the rain and this was because most people were dead before this became a disease that had the prevalence of us now.

There is something we can do as MPs. We can draw together all the voluntary organisations that give such relief to families and also help to stimulate the sufferer along the way and I urge everyone...

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I am grateful to my right honourable friend for giving way and he's making a characteristically he's making a characteristically powerful speech. He is mentioned the importance of volunteers which the whole House will recognise. Does he share my concern that in an ageing population we seem to be saying a smaller cohort of people prepared to smaller cohort of people prepared to step up and volunteer and across government and across this place it government and across this place it would be a noble endeavour to embark upon to champion and encourage more people to get involved with volunteering outside of the usual volunteering outside of the usual cohort because otherwise these vital organisations are going to be so organisations are going to be so short of volunteers that it would be worth doing the job that they need to do.

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I'm grateful to my honourable friend and he makes an important comment and in my constituency there is an older demographic and this will become more acute as we move forward and he is right to say there is a dedicated band of volunteers but to do the voluntary work during the daytime, most people are retired and there are people who do an incredible job supporting people and they deserve nothing but gratitude and thanks but as MPs there is something we can do positively and that is, and I urge everyone, when back in their constituencies, look at what goes on and see what you can do to promote it.

I promise you, the difference it will make will be transformational for people, not just for them but for you as an MP in terms of what you can do and that

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is why we are all here in the first place. We have over 20 colleagues

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We have over 20 colleagues wishing to contribute and so the spitting limit will be six minutes. Linsey Farnsworth.

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Linsey Farnsworth. I would like to start by thanking the honourable member for South Devon for securing this most Devon for securing this most important debate. Dementia care is a subject incredibly close to my heart

16:54

Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)

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subject incredibly close to my heart and that of many of my constituents who writes to me and any honourable members present when I made my maiden speech Carl me talking about maiden speech Carl me talking about my dad who was once extremely talkative. Dementia has taken his voice. With this in mind, it's incumbent on me and other honourable members to use our voice in this place to advocate for much-needed improvements to dementia care. This must start with increased diagnosis.

I'll save as UK is calling on the government -- Alzheimer's UK is calling for ambitious targets for the future. NHS statistics show diagnosis rates as of July NHS statistics show diagnosis rates as of July 2024 were 65% and so one third of people living with dementia across the UK do not have a diagnosis and this means that they are missing out on the vital care, support, symptomatic trip and it can bring. The picture is particularly worse, particularly bad, with the 70,800 people estimated to have early onset dementia, where symptoms develop before the age of 65.

Getting a diagnosis can take twice as long as for older people. My father-in-law, Michael, was diagnosed at 64 and my mother-in-law recalls how hard it was to get the diagnosis and be taken seriously and despite them both knowing that there was a problem and dementia UK advocates for the government to develop a young onset dementia pathway to include providing timely and accurate diagnosis and I wholeheartedly support this. When my dad was diagnosed with dementia in 2018, my family and I were frightened.

At the time, I had a colleague who had gone through this with her mother and she was kind enough to give me some advice. Try not to focus on what you have lost. Celebrate what you can still share and enjoy together and I remembered that advice recently when my stepmum started the engine of my dads beloved classic car. His face lit up at the sound and deep inside he remembers the joy of restoring has Triumph Spitfire over many years. Not everyone will have someone like that to talk to and living with dementia can be lonely.

For those Employed by Dementia UK are godsend and help families navigate the reality of living with dementia. I recently had the pleasure of meeting a worker for the Ripley branch of Nationwide Building Society. There's Been Partnering to Offer Free appointments across the country. Sadly, there are far too few nurses and while I am thankful this gimmicks is, it should not fall to partnerships like this for families to get support. Dementia UK recommends that specialist nurses should be core members of the health centres to provide vital care in the community and I wholeheartedly support this recommendation.

Specialist nurses can be based on hospitals but they are few and far between. And my dad was hospitalised for an infection unrelated to dementia, he was put on the general board and he was so ill that we thought he would never get out of bed. Several weeks into his hospitalisation, I saw a nurse hospitalisation, I saw a nurse A miracle. They got my dad to stand up. I was amazed. He explained to usually work in the dementia word. It was expert skills and knowledge rather than a miracle that made the difference but the nurse was an angel in my eyes.

Dementia UK is demanding ring fenced funding for a specialist nurse service and Age UK is calling for improvements in hospitals to make sure needs are met. My dad is at home and is looked after by my stepmum and my brother and supported by visiting carers. I asked if they had specialist training for caring for people with dementia. They had not but would find it. They are not alone. Despite people living with dementia making up 70% of residents of older age residential care and 60% of people drawing on care at home, I ran 29% of social care staff have no record of dementia training.

I'm calling for mandatory training for social care staff in line with the training standards framework. It's essential and I will continue to campaign for this going forward. With the 10-year health plan due for England, this is a key moment in time and it is vital that improving dementia care is included in NHS reforms and I implore the government to not miss the opportunity to at long last fix

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I want to thank my honourable friend for bringing this important debate to this chamber. Dementia is debate to this chamber. Dementia is one of the most urgent public health crises we face and one that crises we face and one that profoundly affects so many of my constituents. According to constituents. According to Alzheimer's research UK 1,800 people are living with dementia in our area. The current package of care

17:00

Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)

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area. The current package of care for those living with dementia is simply not good enough. Far too many of my constituents speak of being exhausted, kinship carers and collapsing social care provision. Last year I joined the brilliant Warwickshire project in Stratford- on-Avon to hear directly from people in my community living with dementia. And from their carers. Stories are heartbreaking and moving, very much like ones we have heard today in the chamber. There are many dementia cafe's and social groups among my constituents and they provide information, much- needed support and memory and sensory activity.

We must support care workers including equipping them with specialist training and kinship carers who give everything, often with little recognition or support. Improving the availability of respite care is one step forward. I have to say that I was deeply disappointed to see the government dropped its target to improve care for those living with dementia. Early diagnosis is absolutely important for individuals and their families. As my honourable friend said, we need a proper plan for social care and make sure every person living with dementia receives timely, high-quality care while making sure their carers are properly supported too.

This can only be achieved with an early diagnosis. We also note dementia is an intersectional issue. Those from disadvantaged backgrounds are disproportionately affected. Facing higher targets and longer delays to proper care. It falls hardest on those who cannot afford to go private. It is also a rural issue. In communities like mine there is a solution for dementia patients which is even greater. -- Isolation for dementia patients is even greater. There is even more need for support. Families impacted by dementia often have to wait far too long to get the support they need.

Make no mistake this is not just about compassion, dementia already costs the UK economy 42 billion pager and the figures projected to more than double by 2040. In conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask we do not cut back on her commitments and we have a dementia care plan that eases pressure on our acute sections while giving patients and their families the support they need when they need it. Thank you.

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Thank you. Thank you for the honourable member for South Devon

17:03

Dr Beccy Cooper MP (Worthing West, Labour)

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honourable member for South Devon for bringing this very important debate to the House today. Also thank you to the members for sharing such personal testimonies. As well as bringing the broader context. I think it really adds value to what this House brings to our national conversation. As a public health consultant I would be remiss if I did not spend a couple of minutes just talking about reducing the risk of dementia before I get onto dementia care. Because only about one third of adults in the UK think there is actually possible -- it is actually possible to reduce their risk of dementia.

I am sure these are already familiar to everybody this thing but you can actually as professionals and as healthcare professionals and as politicians encourage people of all ages and stages of life, particularly middle-aged adults to be more physically active, eat healthily and to maintain a healthy weight, drink less alcohol, stop smoking, very apt at the moment. The socially active are so many memos have talked about today and socially isolated adults are twice as likely to develop dementia and also to control diabetes and high blood pressure forced if this sounds familiar it is because we talk about it from a cardiovascular realm as well so we should be communicating loudly what is good for the heart, is good for dementia.

Moving onto dementia care and I want to talk a little bit about Worthing West and what we are doing there. It relates a lot to what has been said already and move on to the national picture to conclude. In Worthing West we have 2361 people living with the condition currently. There is a charity in Worthing West called Guild care which is a not-for-profit care service for older people, people with dementia and children and adults with learning disabilities. They provide care for 120 people with dementia in their homes and a further 100 and respite service.

I think it is great that today Madam Deputy Speaker, we have heard so much about respite services. It is so important to help people with dementia access support, care and activities that provide a healthy way of living. People visiting dementia day services experience stronger social highs, better mental health, have fewer GP visits use less medication, sleep better, something we need to all do and have more active engaged minds. We also know respite is vital because behind each diagnosis as we have heard today stands and unpaid carers.

Often. Whose careers and lives are put on hold while their own health quietly deteriorates. Stress, sleep loss and isolation take their toll. And ultimately be seen dementia rates rising. Investing in the value of respite has huge benefits. We have also heard about some innovative community care hubs across the country and Guild care in Worthing West are developing their own community hub to combat social isolation. The provide integrated dementia care, diagnosis and support and rich program of activities that keeps people healthy and living at home.

An aspiration we want for all of us, to live well and to stay-at- home for as long as possible. I think our role in government is to ensure a more coordinated system building on best practice such as those we have heard about today including this one from Guild care in Worthing West. We have also touched on training today. I would just like to say Guild care do deliver in-house specialist mental training to their staff -- dementia training to their staff. They also joined up with Bromley so shout to Bromley.

It is essential to equip healthcare professionals deliver compassionate, person centred

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support as so many have said today. It is the bedrock of quality care. I will. I thank you for giving way. You mentioned person centred care mentioned person centred care intervention. Do you agree intervention. Do you agree initiatives like playlist for life, which is based in my constituency, which uses meaningful music to which uses meaningful music to reconnect people with dementia to their memories and their identity should be more widely supported

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should be more widely supported across the NHS? I thank the honourable member for that intervention and what an outstanding service that sounds. I know today actually there is know today actually there is creative mental health all party Parliamentary group happening and I do think we underestimate the do think we underestimate the benefits of exposure to all of us for the creative arts. Specifically for dementia, you are absolutely for dementia, you are absolutely right. Thank you for raising that. Training is absolutely essential, creative arts we have discussed.

To conclude I just want to talk about what that means nationally. I just want to talk about a national social care service, I think I know the Minister -- thing I know the Minister is very aware of. It is a vital step towards implementing a national care service. The Darzi report and our recent work in the Health and Social Care Select Committee, some members of whom are here this afternoon underlines what we all know. We cannot fix the NHS without fixing the broken social care system.

The two are fundamentally interconnected and we must not look at Health and Social Care issues in isolation including dementia. We must make sure strategic plans and investment in social care are both essential. They are essential to improving people's lives, moving from treatment and prevention of illness, something that has been mentioned and is absolutely pivotal in the 10 year strategy. And to save the spiralling costs of the NHS an ageing population. I would just finally like to conclude with changing the narrative.

I think this has been touched on this afternoon around some kind of dementia where we think about it as an illness which has no hope. I think it is very important to look at people and someone who has already said 50% of us may already develop dementia in our lifetimes. I would say it is touched pretty much everyone in this chamber's lifetime is one way or another. It was recently republished, comprehend a report on dementia and in light of the report, it is well with reading.

I would like to urge this new narrative on dementia. The traditional narrative as I said surrounding dementia focuses on decline and inevitability. But as I have already mentioned around 40% of dementia cases might be... And they can be modified. It could reduce UK prevalence by 60% if we look at risk factors, even by this year. I am advocating for policies that help people to live well stop protecting them from illness, protecting dementia and allowing services to help them live well with dementia.

Emphasising their strengths are so many personal testimony somebody said. And supporting people and their families to better navigate the condition and contribute to their communities and across our society. Thank you.

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Dementia is heartbreaking.

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Dementia is heartbreaking. 944,000 people in the UK suffer from this illness and we need to support families and sufferers in a more families and sufferers in a more holistic manner. Health as is in

17:10

Ann Davies MP (Caerfyrddin, Plaid Cymru)

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Scotland is devolved in Wales however as this affects so many of my constituents I just wanted to highlight the work which has been done within my constituency to support carers and their loved ones during this difficult period in their lives. The trajectory for dementia is upwards. With 1.6 million adults expected to suffer. 70,000 would be under the age of 65. So although it is no -- although it is known as an older persons disease it is not exclusively so.

Living bodies dementia which affected a close friend of mine is thought to account for 15 to 20% of the cases of dementia and it can be difficult to diagnose because the symptoms are so similar to Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. The symptoms can include hallucinations, loss of sleep, changes in alertness and attention and most of all confusion. And how afraid they must feel and they know something is wrong. But they cannot articulate their feelings and do not know what to do or where to go for help.

The same of course aside for the carers. -- Of course is set for their carers, families and loved ones. Their world is turned upside down trying to navigate a diagnosis that has already been said but then to obtain the help that is there and how do you find that help? And where and who was there to point you in that direction, the right direction? We have dementia groups in my constituency and memory clinics. All voluntary run by people who have walked this journey with their loved ones.

People who understand and care. The dementia group is one such. It runs every Thursday between 3:58 PM and serves the wider area and the rural villages around. And when I popped in there for the general visit in January they wanted some way of being able to reach more people who are living with dementia. Who live rurally and do not drive cars and do not have that support network that others have on their doorstep. Being 1/3 sector volunteer transport provider we are preparing to have transport in place for the autumn term and working with Carmarthenshire Association and voluntary services we are simply secure funding for this but for further incidents where they may need to operate.

We can achieve the help that these groups need. They provide a safe space for sufferers of dementia, they provide support for the carers and a chance to just have a cuppa and a chat. The groups that provide a bit of normality for just a couple of hours a week. Serve anybody can help and support these groups please do as has already been said. They are the lifeline within my rural constituency. But if you do not drive and you just do not go anywhere -- then you do just not go anywhere or meet anyone.

I want to give a shout out, thank you to all of those in the voluntary services the biggest thanks really is to the team of volunteers and carers who run such groups as the cafe dementia group.

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Thank you. It is a huge honour to follow my honourable friend and so many others who have shared personal many others who have shared personal family stories as well as wider stories about what is happening in

17:14

Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )

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stories about what is happening in their constituency. I truly welcome this debate and I thank the honourable member for South Devon for putting forward this discussion. Dementia care is important to many of us in this House and to the communities we represent as we have heard. I would like to start by putting on record my thanks to local dementia support teams, families and volunteers involved in their work in my constituency in Peterborough. It seems fitting that we are discussing this during volunteers week.

Having heard so many important discussions, particularly the references to my right honourable friend from Wetherby and Easingwold about how we can all play a personal role but also encourage more volunteers in this space. I would also like to put on record particular callout to one volunteer in my constituency, Heather Hooper. You is a dementia friend Ambassador. And has done so much to help me in my own journey of learning around this issue. I would like to thank them especially for the help and outreach work.

All of the volunteers in this space. Including as I say helping me and my team so as a new member of Parliament we can learn and understand not just what it means to change the care system but how we can support families and people with dementia as constituency MPs in dealing with the case work requests sadly come forward so often. Because of the challenges with it. As many in this House will know, dementia is the leading cause of death in the UK and one in two of us will be affected by this compare condition in our lifetime.

The individual stories I have heard from local families and carers also moving and perhaps some of the most moving case work I have received since I have been elected. And it is absolutely heartbreaking to hear about the lack of accessible care and support too many people still face. The facts and figures are stark. Beyond the human toll as we have heard. Dementia U.K.'s recent survey results are a hard read. Three quarters of respondents said they did not receive the right care to meet their needs through the NHS.

76% saying hospital care did not meet the specific needs for people with dementia. We cannot accept with dementia. We cannot accept I am hopeful that in Peterborough we can make a positive change. There's been debate about the future of the dementia resource centre but is a partnership between families, care workers, the city council. The effects of this are it is a one-stop centre for dementia sufferers and their families and it offers vital services in a cupidity that enable people to be diagnosed quickly and it works and collaborations with GPs and local authorities to give people with dementia and their loved ones the care and support that they need and simplify the system so it is based around their needs rather than expecting too many people to navigate the already complex system.

I would like to thank the Alzheimer's Society. With rates set to increase, centres of excellence must be supported. We have fought hard to keep this open. The story is one we should be familiar with. The accumulation has put pressure on the council and means we have recently been through a traumatic experience of seeing of the resource centre will continue to exist. The centre is now safe. Thanks to the work of families and also the doctor who others in the House will know, we have saved the centre and find a new home for it.

It will be based on a community centre and we have not only saved it but created a bespoke area where the council can invest and provide dedicated space not just for medical and healthcare but for socialising and families and carers to have something which is every day in their lives alongside the professional healthcare that they need.

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My honourable friend has given a powerful and treat my passionate powerful and treat my passionate speech. I wonder if you would recognise the support young people and young carers need because it and young carers need because it must be incredibly challenging for younger people as well.

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younger people as well. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for the passion with which he has told the story and I think the role of young carers is a story we must bear witness to and I thank him for his point and I know my right honourable friend on the front bench is friend on the front bench is passionate about ensuring those who passionate about ensuring those who care for loved ones get the recognition and support that they need. I thank him for his question and I thank the Minister in advance for the recognition of the work he plays in this.

Speak the story of plays in this. Speak the story of saving his local centre touches me. In my constituency, the centre which was run by the Alzheimer's Society Looked like It Would Cause but Because of Some Great Work, the Centre Was Saved and It Is Thriving and I Am a Patron. It Can Be Done, Not Just in His Constituency, Not Just Mine, but across the Country As Well. Speak Such a Wonderful Example. It is the campaigners and families and it is the work that has saved it rather than me as an individual MP and I was glad to play a small role.

Fundamentally, care belongs in the community and it is our duty to promote such initiatives our duty to promote such initiatives as I have talked about and also to ensure it is based on community- based care, not top-down care. It is based care, not top-down care. It is our duty to promote it and I hope that this total provision is the hallmark of what comes next and features prominently in the 10-year plan and the remarks the Minister will shortly make.

17:21

Rachel Gilmour MP (Tiverton and Minehead, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you. Dementia is a uniquely tragic disease and it is after all an attack on the mind and on memories. There is no current cure and it affects almost every family in the country. My constituent said office family's experience with the disease, "My wife slipped into dementia about three years ago and when it strikes it comes slowly and we did not know what was in and they cannot now by one parent had dementia and the other did not.

My wife had been a superb cook and I was a poor substitute. Children tried to help but they had their own lives to live. In my constituency, it is estimated we have 1877 people with dementia and that figure far exceeds the national average. And yet around the country the positive provision and the significant challenges means the impact of dementia care only exacerbates feelings of abandonment. It is no secret we are an ageing society and projections from the NHS indicate we will have more than 1 million people living with dementia by 2030 and as many as 1.6 million by the midpoint of the century and the significant shift underscores the need to expand the workforce in the care sector through upscaling, training, detection strategies.

I speak with particular thrust as the MP for an overwhelmingly rural area and I'm aware of the issues in remote communities where the isolation makes things additionally challenging. Several members of my party had made the point about social care and my party leader discusses this on a weekly basis so I will not revisit the need for social care but we must support carers and increasing pay is not about fairness but an investment in the future where better care leads to better outcomes and after all the to better outcomes and after all the rising tide lifts all boats and according to research, 80% wish to remain in their own homes and so it is about time the unpaid carers, the silent healers, get regular respite breaks.

Before I finish, unlike other speakers, I did not talk about my family's experience until the end of my speech because frankly I thought I would cry. My three brothers and I were lucky enough to be brought up by an intellectual colossus, my mother, he was educated at Cambridge and she was a wonderful mother and grandmother. Fortunately, my family is able financially to look after her and them endlessly grateful to my brother and sister- in-law for looking after her as well as they do and to her carer who comes from Romania and has literally changed her life.

Somebody earlier said it's important not to look at the sad state of things but on the good side and I rang my mother last Sunday and we were laughing so much that I nearly had to put the phone down. She might not be able to remember everything but she has still got her sense of humour, her appetite, and always enjoys a wee glass of sherry. She will be here next week and I cannot wait to see you and I love you.

you and I love you.

17:25

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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I would like to thank the honourable member for South Devon for securing the important debate and as members across the House have highlighted rightly, it is one of the most urgent health and social challenges facing the country and one in two of us will be affected, with through our own diagnosis are caring for a loved one or both. There are 14,200 people living with dementia of which over 3000 live in Wolverhampton and this number is expected to more than double across the next 10 years.

As a lack of early diagnosis is an issue that prevents proper care, considering the prevalence in communities, I am pleased that 67% of people with dementia in Wolverhampton have been formally diagnosed as having the condition compared to 67% nationally and 59% across the West Midlands. These are more than just statistics. Each member of these communities represents individuals, families, communities living with the daily reality of this cruel condition. The total annual cost of dementia in England reached £42 billion in 2024 and this will double in the next 15 years.

More than half of that cost is shouldered by unpaid carers, family members and friends who often go without support, recognition or respite. I welcome the recent increase in the allowance earnings threshold which will enable more carers to remain in work while continuing to receive the support that they rely on and this is the right direction but if we are serious about improving care, we must start with the underfunding of the social care system, which is fragmented, overstretched, under resourced, and we cannot rely on goodwill alone and so I urge the government to commit to a sustainable and long-term funding for the social care sector and for workers and community based services and specialist dementia provision.

I'm proud the city of Wolverhampton has been recognised as a dementia- friendly community by the Alzheimer's Society with over 13,000 friends throughout the city and I would like to commend the work of the Cathy in my community which is an independent volunteer service. -- cafe. It provides a warm space for people with dementia with live music, hot meals, compassionate support. It is a lifeline for many and it is free of charge. These initiatives led by the community are vital and they cannot be allowed to become a substitute for a robust national care infrastructure in the NHS.

Volunteers and charities play an incredible role and we cannot carry the burden alone. Here should be included in the 10 year health plan for the NHS as advocated for and with more nurses in hospitals and the community to deliver timely key of which is person centred and can reduce costs. It is beyond time for us to have a properly funded and coordinated approach that ensures that everyone can access the care that they crucially need. It is really important we have timely diagnosis of dementia and particularly with what is now becoming very common, young onset dementia.

It is vital for the future of us all. I have come to the end of my speech.

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My constituent, her husband took early onset dementia at 30th and early onset dementia at 30th and nobody knew what it was and they nobody knew what it was and they were not expecting it and would you agree with me that we have to do agree with me that we have to do much more across the UK to highlight that it could happen at any age?

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She is right. We have to take action earlier. There are cases of action earlier. There are cases of people getting dementia without knowing that they have got that condition because there is no condition because there is no diagnosis, even as early as the age of 50 and so I agree with the

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of 50 and so I agree with the Everyone deserves high quality care when they need it, but the sad reality is such a care services in this country are in crisis forced this particular the case for those with dementia who often have some of the most complex needs, and this is having a huge impact not only in patients but also on the family and friends as they struggle to care for

17:32

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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them. Richard wrote to me about his experience of being a full-time carer for his wife of 55 years. She carer for his wife of 55 years. She has ataxia compounded by dementia and losing her ability to talk or walk, write or use the phone and walk, write or use the phone and Richard has to be with her 24 seven to ensure her safety. The daily to ensure her safety. The daily routine starts with getting his wife out of bed, transporting her to the bathroom, helping with the toilet, getting her into the shower and getting in the shower with her to getting in the shower with her to shower her.

Her clean her teeth, getting back to the bedroom to dry her hair and dress her. Taking her downstairs via their self-funded stairlift. Getting her into a stairlift. Getting her into a wheelchair to transport her to a wheelchair to transport her to a In the wheelchair back to the lounge. And she may sleep for a little bit, but sooner or later there will be a call for help to go to the toilet, so it's back into the wheelchair, back in the stairlift, back in the toilet, cleaning and dressing her, back on the stairlift back into the wheelchair and the lounge where the whole palaver will repeat after five minutes as she has forgotten she's already been and can't be convinced otherwise.

That's just one small part of the day, and it sounds relentless, and due to recent back injury Richard has had to employ a carer to monies a week to help. He wants to care for his wife as long as you can but one day he may have to move her to a nursing home. And that worries him. He reckons it will cost approximately £1800 per week and rising due to the increase in national insurance, and is now worried that in pandering to populism on immigration the government may make it even harder to recruit carers.

He says once again, is the least fortunate and needy of us who will bear the cost. Another constituent wrote, when my wife was first diagnosed without sums in 2019 will be given a couple of booklets and told to prepare for the inevitable. He goes on to explain for a couple of years, including the COVID lockdown, they saw no one apart from the occasional surgery visit. Until a crisis in 2023 lead to the community mental health team being involved. For a while then his wife got a fair amount of support, but when the mental health team deemed her stabilised, that support was withdrawn.

Leading to another crisis in January 2024. He is very worried that this whole cycle is going to play out again and again.

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I thank her for giving way. She was talking, she reminded me of a was talking, she reminded me of a conversation I had with William, constituent from high Ham who has been caring for his wife who has had been caring for his wife who has had Alzheimer's now for many years. He is reluctant to mention intensive support team in Yeovil but this service has recently been reorganised and as a result is quite fragmented across Somerset now and there is no real central contact, no clear structure, incomplete records clear structure, incomplete records leaving some carers adrift, so does she agree with me that streamlining she agree with me that streamlining dementia care services is vital to ensure clarity and coordination

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carers? Absolutely. It's a very frightening situation to find frightening situation to find yourself in and then to have to do battle for carers who are having to do all that I have described Richard having to do for them to on top of the have to battle their way to find the services available just to add to the problems. So my constituents mental health services like resources and need more financial support so they aren't abandoning people the minute they think they can get away with it.

A number of members have highlighted the importance of voluntary initiatives, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all those in my Thornbury and Yate constituency, including time for carers, the memory cafe's in Yate and Thornbury and the Charfield memory group. Voluntary initiatives are not enough to provide the support that dementia patients and their carers need. The cross-party commission on social care is welcome but carers like my constituents cannot wait three years. They need a fair deal now.

That means respite breaks so that they don't get to breaking point so they can carry on caring for their loved ones as they want to do. It means ongoing support from health services, regular check ins, not being abandoned when the immediate crisis is over. And it means having the confidence that when they do need to turn to page carers, that those carers will be available, that they will have dementia training, and that cost won't be a barrier to using them.

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I'm now asking members to make their comments for no longer than five minutes.

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five minutes. Can I thank the Member for South Devon for being in this really Devon for being in this really important debate might bring it to the House today? I am speaking here the House today? I am speaking here today in the chamber on behalf of the 1422 people in Leigh and Atherton, living with dementia. This Atherton, living with dementia. This is above the national average, ranking 281, ranking 281/650 ranking 281, ranking 281/650 nationally. But I really want to nationally.

But I really want to speak about the incredible work that is being done in our communities to is being done in our communities to support these individuals. So sadly, due to years of neglect and underfunding, there is no integrated underfunding, there is no integrated dementia care pathway, and trying to navigate fragmented and complex Health and Social Care systems can cause families to full between the gaps and reach crisis point. The fact that dementia is having money mental pressure on our Health and Social Care system is all too often an afterthought.

So this condition is having terrible impacts on so many families forced of this clear when speaking to my constituents who share with me heartbreaking stories of their struggle to access the support they need. And that's why improving dementia care within the

17:37

Jo Platt MP (Leigh and Atherton, Labour )

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community is essential. It can offer not just improved outcomes for those with dementia but also for the wider Health and Social Care system, as Health and Social Care system, as we've heard in this House today. At we've heard in this House today. At a local level, we are fortunate to have brilliant organisations that go above and beyond, offering care, comfort and invaluable support. And I want to pay tribute to my remarkable constituent whose passion for dementia causes is nothing short for dementia causes is nothing short of inspiring.

So when he was mayor, his charity appeal partnered with the local Alzheimer's Society and the local Alzheimer's Society and raised an outstanding £30,000, a true testament to his unwavering true testament to his unwavering commitment to making a real difference. And together with his wife Karen, now founded the good deeds trust, a heartfelt initiative offering a deep connection with the people. Their family run charity offers essential advice and support to those navigating the challenges of dementia. So we all privileged to have specialist dementia nurses, but I want to pay tribute to Bridget and Caroline at belong, the care home at the heart of Atherton.

So the dedication to supporting patients has earned them national recognition and they've been shortlisted for the Admiral nurse award at the dementia care awards. They offer invaluable advice, helping ageing assessments with essential guidance on securing financial support. And I could not be prouder of the staff in Atherton to see their hard-working kindness recognised at national level. It's truly inspirational, but there are also -- they are not alone for so we have a pub until they call the union arms, and it's been holding dementia meet ups for the last 10 years.

It's become a safe space for people living with the condition to spend time in good company. The group, known as the forgotten regulars have created a fantastic's port -- support network brightening the lives of those affected by dementia, including their families, despite the incredible work they do, they do face a challenge with rising costs and the challenge to keep the dementia pub running. As a dementia care research champion, I proudly stand with dementia UK. And other organisations advocating for better support to community initiatives, greater investment in research and treatment and early diagnosis to transform the future of dementia in my constituency and in the rest of the UK.

Ultimately we need to ensure the health service fit for the future, meaning improving community and primary dementia support. That starts with championing and nurturing the incredible work done, being done right here in our communities that make a difference and support those who need it.

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Thank you. I'm incredibly grateful to my honourable friend the grateful to my honourable friend the Member for South Devon for securing this important debate. Dementia care this important debate. Dementia care is in crisis. One in six hospital beds are currently occupied by beds are currently occupied by someone with dementia. By 2040, it is estimated that this figure will be one in four hospital beds. We be one in four hospital beds. We need the government to take bold radical action to introduce a system that provides the best possible that provides the best possible support for people with dementia and their families and support that is easily accessible every step of the

17:40

Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

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easily accessible every step of the way. I've heard from many carers in my constituency of Eastleigh who are stretched to their limit and adding to that pressure is the constant uncertainty over support. People with dementia often for through the gaps of the Health and Social Care service with many assessments not designed for people with dementia. That's why support dementia U.K.'s call for the government to urgently review the NHS continuing healthcare process, so can the Minister confirm whether the government are considering a specific focus on how cognitive and behavioural needs are assessed and whether dementia specialists will be involved in the continuing healthcare assessment process? Support for carers is also incredibly important.

In May 2024 Hampshire County Council changed our local support service after 12 years with very little notice. One of my constituents described how the previous provider, the charity and over mine for his and his wife, the charity offered advice and legal guidance and hosted social events that Bill networks. My constituents feel the new service is focused on short-term emergency response, rather than comments of support. At present the care system relies heavily on unpaid carers, usually family members. People with dementia often rely on a combination of unpaid and formal social care.

Two thirds of unpaid carers are women and 1/3 provide 100 hours of care a week. This is a full-time job with no pay, little rest and far too little recognition. As my constituent Julia said, post diagnosis there was just very little help, while caring for her husband she found she had to do her own research and reading to get her has been the care he needed. Despite all this she is still concerned that her husband is better off than many others who don't have family advocating on their behalf.

Clearly there is a growing need for a minimum standard of good quality post diagnosis support for people with dementia and their carers. I would also urge the government to commit to providing guidance and ring fence funding to ensure there is a specialist dementia nurse service in every NHS acute trust, and I support the demand for a bold new diagnosis target. Urgent action to reduce waiting lists and improve dementia diagnosis, data collection and publication to drive greater accountability. There's also a discussion to be had about dementia specific training for care workers.

Last year in England only 45% received dementia specific training which highlights the scale of the problem. So the government implement Alzheimer's Society's recommendation that training the dementia should be mandatory across the adult social workforce? I've spoken in this chamber on previous occasions about the impact of dementia and Alzheimer's on my own family and how after a loved one is diagnosed with this terrible disease, you lose them twice. With our rapidly ageing population, it's critical more support is given to families coping with dementia that they don't have to jump through hoops to get support and that those living with dementia and outsiders are treated with a specialist care and the dignity they

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deserve. Thank you. And thank you to the

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Thank you. And thank you to the honourable member further bringing honourable member further bringing this debate. Caring for her relative with dementia is one of the with dementia is one of the tremendously difficult things anyone will have to do and want to pay tribute to the many in my constituency were caring for a constituency were caring for a relative with dementia. I can see that it is an incredibly challenging that it is an incredibly challenging thing to do, and I spoke to many many people on the doorstep over time who had relatives who are suffering from dementia and to suffering from dementia and to refine things very difficult.

When I read the Treasury dementia care plan read the Treasury dementia care plan I could see the 51% of carers providing unpaid care in my providing unpaid care in my constituency are providing over 100 hours a week of unpaid care. That's

17:45

Sarah Russell MP (Congleton, Labour)

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the most phenomenal commitment. So thank you ever so much to the people thank you ever so much to the people who are doing that. I have heard the Minister speak previously about his family's experiences with this family's experiences with this issue, and he did so extremely movingly. And know that he is very very committed to improving dementia very committed to improving dementia care in this country. It is however very shocking that at present only about 60, 67% of people in my constituency actually receive a constituency actually receive a dementia diagnosis.

I've spoken to a resident recently who explained that her mother has been in a care home with advanced dementia for three years but is still undiagnosed. And years but is still undiagnosed. And whilst we do not have a full set of diagnoses, we can't ever properly diagnoses, we can't ever properly explore good healthcare outcomes for people, what proportion is spent would look like and generally how we can improve the system. A huge amount of this unpaid care is provided by women, although of course there are people of all genders providing it, and I salute It's one of the reasons third gender pay gap doubles when women are in their 40s.

As well as improving the well-being of those providing that care, investment in the care sector could create 2.7 times as many jobs as the amount of investment in construction. I don't think we should provide better care just because there's a good economic basis for doing so, we should do it because it's the right thing to do. But it is important that there would be huge economic benefits associated with doing this as well. I absolutely welcomed the government's launch of an independent commission into adult social care as a first step towards creating a national care service.

There has been very inconsistent funding of Admiral nurses in Cheshire East, which led to inconsistent support. I have also been so impressed with the care being provided by local hospices, which have traditionally been more associated with cancer care but are now very involved in dementia care. I would like to bring forward more funding for hospice care is sooner we are able to do so. I know that the services people receive are hugely important to them, whether that's in the community or in care homes.

A dentist in my constituency told me that due to an issue with insurance many dentists are no longer covered to provide services in care homes. People deserve dental care. At times UK has called for training for UK carers, that is something we should move to do at pace. I want to say thank you as well not just to the unpaid carers, but the volunteers in my constituency who are doing the most incredible work. We have the Congleton lions dementia buddy scheme, we have new life Church running our a forget-me-not group for those with dementia, we have over 1,000 dementia friends in Sandbach.

We have a memory cafe in Asbury Village Hall and a Methodist Church, I would like to say huge thank you to everyone involved in making this a dementia friendly village. I know I haven't captured the full range of support available there so I'm sorry to go groups I didn't pick up on, but I have been staggered in researching this speech by the absolute variety of services provided on an unpaid basis by people across my community. It's absolutely staggering. But it doesn't take away from the fact that we absolutely need the right paid services, home first and subsequently in care homes where that becomes the right thing for a family.

I want to say thank you to everyone who is providing enormous support for the people they care for and our entire society. I know members across the House will agree we need to provide more support to we need to provide more support to

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those giving that care. Thank you. Thank you to my honourable friend

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Thank you to my honourable friend from South Devon for bringing this debate to the house. I would just like to give credit also to the like to give credit also to the member for Hartlepool, who is touching tribute to their father touching tribute to their father reminded me of the grandfather that I knew and loved before dementia slowly stripped me of that man. slowly stripped me of that man. Dementia is a particularly cruel terminal illness. And the leading terminal illness.

And the leading cause of death in the UK. We each know somebody who is watching or who know somebody who is watching or who has watched somebody they love has watched somebody they love slowly fade from dementia. One day some of our own children will slowly be robbed of (BLEEP), perhaps in time my daughter will slowly suffer

17:50

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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my own withdrawal. The very foundation of characters, lives lived, families and lives loved. Dementia steals away those memories. Dementia steals away those memories. And with each memory loss, so too is a little more of that person. Children and grandchildren, once a source of joy and once, become source of joy and once, become strangers as the void left by lost strangers as the void left by lost memories is filled with confusion and fear. Confusion which chips away and fear.

Confusion which chips away at confidence, whilst fear eats away at empathy. Once only a shadow of at empathy. Once only a shadow of the person we loved remains, dementia takes their independence and comes for their speech, their and comes for their speech, their ability to walk, and even to eat. For those who shoulder the burden of care, the impact is profound. provoking competing feelings of sadness, anger, but also pride. Many do not realise they are carers, and soldier on in the duty to their loved ones without external support.

Young carers, such as those I met recently in tweak worse, shoulder their additional responsibility through the most challenging period of their own development. Many do not know they are carers, and too many are not identified as such by their schools nor their authorities. The financial burden of dementia to the UK economy is £42 billion per year. And £26 billion of that is borne by informal carers. Patients and carers are like our failed by dual crises in social care and the NHS.

And the stresses imposed on patients only hastens their decline. Liberal Democrats have consistently called on this government to address the growing social care crisis with a long-term plan, and I will reiterate that we cannot adequately support the NHS without addressing social care. Other members have spoken out length about measures the government can take, I won't repeat those. But I will say one area the government can move quickly in his that of dementia care skills, through tailored training for our NHS and care workers to better understand the needs of dementia patients, too often care is not tailored for dementia.

In Tewkesbury constituency I'm glad to have Gloucestershire's sole dementia only a care home. I will meet with them this week to hear about their needs and experiences, I will follow-up by writing to the Secretary of State.

17:53

Chris McDonald MP (Stockton North, Labour)

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I thought this evening I might praise the house of the story of Pat

17:53

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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and Jon Hirst from my constituency.

17:53

Chris McDonald MP (Stockton North, Labour)

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and Jon Hirst from my constituency. Pat is a nurse, she met Jon while studying in Liverpool, they married in 1978 and raised three sons and settled in Stockton. Pat returned to work after she had her children work after she had her children initially in working -- nursing homes caring for patients with homes caring for patients with dementia, then at the North Tees hospital where she worked for over a decade. In the final months of her decade. In the final months of her time at the hospital, her performance as a nurse began to decline.

Unbeknownst to colleagues decline. Unbeknownst to colleagues and her family, Pat was displaying the early symptoms of frontotemporal the early symptoms of frontotemporal dementia, which we heard about earlier from the member from South Devon. Her work colleagues did not know there is so disciplinary action know there is so disciplinary action was initiated. Jon believes she would have been dismissed, but Pat instead decided to retire on her 60th birthday before the end of that year. In early 2012 Pat experience swallowing difficulties, she had tests at several hospitals and the diagnosis came.

No further explanation was provided other than a referral to the local memory clinic, I think this is an experience many people with dementia have. That evening, Jon sat at his computer and searched online for more information. There alone in his own home he learned the average life expectancy from diagnosis was between two and 20 years, he hadn't realised until that point that dementia could be a terminal illness. And I think we would all agree there must be a better way of finding out such devastating news.

Pat remained unaware of her surroundings until -- sorry, remained aware of her surroundings until the end. In her final two years she lost the ability to speak and could only communicate with her rise. Jon recalls the look of fear in her eyes, that point she was fully aware she was saying goodbye to her husband and sons. Their grandson Henry is now two years old, he will never know his granny. Jon is determined that Henry and others of his generation should grow up in a world where dementia can be diagnosed early, and manage better and ultimately keyword.

Jon recently completed a walk from Teeside to Newcastle to raise money, for those not familiar with the area that is a long distance. In Stockton we've got about 1,300 people suffering from dementia, but it takes six weeks longer for a dementia diagnosis in Stockton North than the national average. So clearly we do need to ensure people are diagnosed early before symptoms become apparent. I think it's also important we raise awareness with the public and employers that early-onset dementia can and does affect people before retirement age, so people don't suffer the kind of treatment Pat did in the last year of her employment.

The impact of dementia whilst it is a difficulty for a parent it adds a new dimension when that person is diagnosed at the age of 30 or 40. We have heard already that if nothing changes one in two of us will be affected by dementia, either directly or living as a carer. Jon speaks for the thousands of families across Stockton North and the country who are facing this condition. I think we owe it to Jon and others to ensure that they no longer have lengthy waits, or financial hardship, but instead by early intervention, compassionate care, and meaningful progress through research.

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May I start by thanking the member for South Devon for securing

17:57

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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member for South Devon for securing this debate, and two other members across this House shared passionate stories about themselves or constituents. There are far too many people across the UK living with dementia, robbing them of their memory, speech and independence. For every person with dementia there is often a family doing everything they can behind closed doors to hold things together. I have heard from so many today, one of those is my constituent Claire. Claire describes constituent Claire. Claire describes her mother as a -- Christine started showing signs of mood swings.

A family notice something was off but like so many others did not assume it was dementia. Even medical officials overlooked the signs. Christine's story took a devastating turn in 2018 just four weeks after her daughter gave to twins. What should have been a joyful time in their life Christine had suffered a cardiac arrest, that plunge her into vascular dementia, a terminal diagnosis with no treatment or cure. After Christine's diagnosis the family was visited by a nurse once, they were told they were being discharged.

They receive no care plan or long-term guidance. From then on care fell entirely to the family, Claire's dad, a retired engineer, became a full-time carer overnight. He learned to administer insulin and medicine, and took online courses with his daughter Claire. Fortunately support came when dementia UK .involved, but it was too late to change the trajectory, and it was affected by the pandemic. Demand continues to outstrip supply. Through it all, care created -- Claire created something positive.

She saw first- hand the power music had to reach her mum even in the late stages of her dementia. She set up sing from the heart, a group that sings for dementia victims in person and online, it was a pleasure to hear residents enjoying that. It's now a lasting tribute to her mother who passed away in April of last year at the age of 73. We have the memory cafe and so many volunteers that are working to give that care in the community.

Everyone with dementia deserves high quality care whenever they need it. Liberal Democrats want everyone to be able to live independently and with dignity and receive any care they need, in their home whenever possible. That's why we have routinely called on the government to act now. Their decision to quietly drop cross-party talks on social care and push the delivery E commission's recommendations to almost a decade away will leave many with dementia and their families paying the price. Does the government accept dementia care is in crisis, and commit now to better funding so families do not go through the same hardships of receiving care like Claire and

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Kathryn? Are now going to ask members to keep comments to around, in fact no more than four minutes.

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more than four minutes. All politics is of course personal, I would like to thank both right honourable honourable members for sharing their personal for sharing their personal experiences today. Three years ago experiences today. Three years ago Clackmannanshire became home to the Alzheimer's care and brain resource Alzheimer's care and brain resource centre. David Cassidy are constituent of mine alongside others constituent of mine alongside others raised a lot of money for a first in our country, a dedicated brain hard

18:01

Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)

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that helps people understand and manage the things that affect brain health and what potentially leads to dementia. A terrific achievement and inspirational example of what can be achieved by local people when backed achieved by local people when backed And while talking of support, fears Ludgate House has been instrumental in providing specialist respite care for people and families with many complex needs, including dementia. Clackmannanshire residents with dementia have received the most compassionate, attentive and brilliant care from the staff.

The same dedicated staff that have provided peace of mind to families, allowing them to take a much needed break from their caring responsibilities. However, there was uncertainty around the future of the respite centre at Ludgate House. The consequence of the chronic underfunding and systemic issues within our Scottish social care system. The fate of the respite centre is representative of a broader crisis in dementia care. In Scotland over 90,000 people are living with dementia, a number projected to rise by 50% by 2040.

With that alarming prediction, the removal of the respite unit could leave a significant void in our community. Depriving families of essential support and placing additional strain on already overstretched health services. In fact a recent report from Alzheimer's Scotland highlighted the lack of strategic planning and commissioning for long-term care. Noting that many people with advanced dementia face monthly care bills of thousands of pounds. And like people from all over the UK, families from and the sheer have been and continue to be victims of the cost of living crisis.

So the possibility of losing the respite unit at Ludgate House frankly does not bear thinking about. So in response, I'm working with the staff and have set up a campaign to keep the respite unit open and press the integration joined for clarity, transparency and above all else, the continued delivery of this vital service. The Scottish government must invest in dementia care, allocating sufficient funding to support existing facilities and develop new community based care models. They must be equitable access to dementia care regardless of financial circumstances, and we must support people with dementia, their families, carers and the staff affected by the uncertainty surrounding Ludgate House and of course facilities all across Scotland and the UK facing very

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similar problems. Brian Mathew.

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Brian Mathew. Thank you. And I thank my

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Thank you. And I thank my honourable friend, the member for South Devon for bringing this important debate. In my constituency, an estimated 1638 people are living with dementia,

18:04

Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)

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people are living with dementia, which is above the national average. However beyond those numbers, the stories of individual people, each

18:05

Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)

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with their own unique experience of living with dementia. Dementia does

18:05

Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)

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living with dementia. Dementia does not discriminate. It can impact anyone, robbing them of their best memories and devastating families and friends in its wake. I would also like to commend those who also like to commend those who dedicate themselves to caring and dedicate themselves to caring and supporting those with dementia. I've been lucky enough to meet some of them in March advises and I visited them in March advises and I visited a branch if the nationwide bank recently who have been hosting recently who have been hosting dementia friendly sessions, and acting as a support hub for those with dementia.

It was truly with dementia. It was truly heartwarming to see the friendships, bonds formed between the regular bonds formed between the regular customers and staff. You have undertaken special training to help them. But I must also point out the impact that the hike in employer's national insurance contributions is having on care providers, including those with dementia. The care sector already operates on a razorthin margin. And these rises have increased the operational costs drastically. Affecting not only the budgets of individuals and local authorities who are picking up this added burden but also hospices which have been mentioned before.

And these are being faced with difficult choices over who they can care for and for how long and how to raise sufficient funds to continue

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operating. Thank you. Thank you, and I must also thank the honourable member for South the honourable member for South Devon for bringing this important debate, particularly as dementia is the defining Health and Social Care the defining Health and Social Care challenge of our time. And it's now challenge of our time. And it's now a leading cause of death in the UK, and one in two of us will be affected in our lifetime. Whether

18:06

Mrs Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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that's through receiving a diagnosis ourselves or caring for a loved one or both. Yet despite the scale and impact of this condition, people affected by dementia continue to face a fragmented system, a system that too often leaves them without the support they need when they needed the most. Navigating a complex web of my Health and Social Care services is exhausting, and for many families it leads to a crisis before help actually arrives. As my own member outlined, it's a postcode lottery.

But I'm so proud that in Wolverhampton we are a dementia friendly city. Three dementia can outcome a personalised support service from the Alzheimer's Society, people can access a wide range of help, whether emotional support, advice on benefits, connecting to local support groups, or practical tips to live with dementia. The service makes a real difference to enhance the quality of life for patients and their families. But alongside this, Wolverhampton's wider dementia pathway, our memory clinics, community health teams, Admiral nurses, dementia cafe's and carer support services form a crucial safety net for families that are under immense pressures.

To every NHS worker, social care professional, all of the volunteers, an army of unpaid workers who provide support for patients and families in Wolverhampton North East, I say thank you. It's their knowledge, lived experiences, and absolute dedication that is deeply valued and appreciated. But local services can only go so far. And that's why I am urging the government to make dementia a core priority in the upcoming NHS 10 year plan. And I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister to listen to leading experts such as dementia UK and Age UK to ring fence funding the dementia specialist nurses within every NHS acute trust.

To embed dementia specialist nurses such as Admiral nurses in neighbourhood health centres. To tackle the delays and disparities in dementia diagnosis. As of April 2025, only -- six to 5% of those same verse 625 older have been estimated to have dementia as a record diagnosis. And finally, to ensure investment in diagnostic capacity, including Emory clinics and address the growing concerns among older people and unpaid carers about their ability to access these vital services. Dementia is not just a clinical condition.

It's a personal crisis that unfolds in so many living rooms, GP surgeries, hospital wards, and care homes across our country. So let's not allow this to be a geography roulette to determine the dignity that is needed for every person that is affected by dementia.

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Vikki Slade. Dementia is such a cruel disease,

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Dementia is such a cruel disease, but let's be clear does not simply part of getting old, yet too often it's treated as though it's it's treated as though it's inevitable. In my constituency of Mid Dorset and North Poole, the number of people living with dementia is nearly 40% higher than

18:10

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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dementia is nearly 40% higher than the national average. One in every 45 adults of all ages has been diagnosed and we know the true number is even higher when we include those not diagnosed. Family members who provide such amazing care are relying so heavily on community groups like steppingstones and by my predecessor and good friend Damon and Brooke. Their jigsaws and tea dances provide moments of joy and the Leonardo trust provide grants for unpaid carers, and I wonder thank the fantastic work of the East Dorset Museum who recruited residents to crochet over 8,000 forget-me-nots which decorated the town last month.

Neurological conditions like dementia are the leading cause of illness globally. And as our population ages, the challenge will only grow. But dementia is not just a disease of old age. Some of the most heartbreaking cases are among younger people. A neighbour of mine in Broadstone proud veteran, builder, father was diagnosed in his early 50s. I watched him go from walking past a House without recognising us to be a carer by his side now living full-time in a care home. His daughters will never have their father walk them down the aisle, his wife never share the life they dream of.

And as wide and hesitate, dementia research champion because we don't understand how the brain works and stop it from failing, we don't get the benefits of extended life expectancy and today the daily Mirror has reported over a hundred new drugs in developing the dementia and we are on a journey to a cure. 86% of the drugs could halt the disease but research alone is not enough and we must transform the care we give. Like other members my constituents are facing a battle just to get the care they need.

Andrew was told that his wife Tricia didn't qualify for NHS continuing healthcare because it did not meet the NHS funded nursing criteria of being short-term or optimal potential despite changing on a daily basis. The council eventually stepped in but nothing until may not until Andrew himself came ill. Why is nursing care not picked up by the NHS? Surely that's what it's for. And of the constituent imaging hobby about her mother who has dementia, paranoia and has become abusive. A father who predated his family for so long one spent the night in a park just to escape.

A social worker decided that her mother could not go into care home because their mother had wanted to stay home. Despite acknowledging that she lacked the capacity to make the decision. And after accessing respite care when the family reached crisis, emerging as now like Emma Jane is now funding privately what she battles the council because of other similar can't cope. It's intolerable, families breaking and councils overwhelmed and Kevin wrote to me about his aunt Jean now 92, entered a care home eight years ago.

The family home is gone, the money gone, and the council must step in. The care home fees are nearly double the local care home cap and with the pension and a discount from the care home, is a £300 a week shortfall, leaving the family to pay out of their own pocket or moving out of the play she called home for nearly a decade. To put it in perspective, the cost of caring for Jean one year after her pension contribution is equivalent to the total annual council tax of 24 households.

Every dementia patient in my constituency needed council tax funded care, it would consume the council tax of 43,000 times and only have 44,000 whole constituency. We must act, invest in research, support carer sent reform how you deliver funded care and I call progress in the Casey report. There was no choice. The cost of action is too high cost

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of inaction. Thank you first there is no doubt

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Thank you first there is no doubt that dementia is the biggest health challenge of our time. Is the leading cause of death in the UK. And there won't be a single family And there won't be a single family across our country who was untouched by this illness, and I suspect most by this illness, and I suspect most if not all of us in this House will be no different. Look my own experience with my mum who developed experience with my mum who developed a condition when she was 62 or 63.

She was a nursing sister and midwife, a carer by profession, and also an unpaid carer to my late also an unpaid carer to my late father after he suffered a stroke until she could care no more. The

18:14

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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until she could care no more. The carer now needing care. It's often said that it could be a postcode lottery when it comes to the provision of dementia care, both at home and then residential care. My family and I are very fortunate in that early experience was a positive one. The provision of dementia healthcare services is the responsibility of like to my local integrated care boards. That's the integrated care boards. That's the case across the UK. My constituency provided outstanding care home services on a daily basis allowing my mother to stay in her home as long as possible, however the highly dedicated team of carers are often expected to do more for the clients with reduced times.

The consequences of cuts to local governments and care budgets from central government for last decades, played out in the central -- frontline. I served as counsel of the 21 years and very proud of our record and provision of dementia care. As an administration we took the bold step, the brave yet correct decision that we would continue to offer local authority run residential care homes. We built two large state-of-the-art care homes, one in the bargain across the House and one in Clydebank Queens key where my mother now receives quite outstanding care by a highly dedicated team of care staff, which my brother and I are so appreciative of.

I refer to this because it demonstrates what all the local authorities and integrated care boards could and should provide, given the correct support and I want my UK Labour government to prioritise a society where every dementia patient receives high quality care from diagnosis through to end-of-life care. We must commit to improving dementia care and empower our local leaders with the autonomy they need to provide the best services to their local community. That means this UK Labour government learning the lessons of SNP failure.

Earlier this year the Scottish government formally abandoned its national care service plan, scaling back their fractured policy of centralised control under a single national body. Wasting time and money. £30 billion wasted, money that could have delivered a million extra hours of care, stopped care packages being cut and provided the essential dementia care families across Scotland are desperate for. Central government does have a role, the 10 year health plan of this government provides a key opportunity to fix dementia care.

It starts with a blueprint for transforming early dementia diagnosis. Diagnosis late and the progression of the disease costs all of us so much more. Early diagnosis is vital to ensure people with dementia get access to treatment and support they need. Our 10 year plan should include bold grave commitments to funding and providing our NHS new groundbreaking treatment medicines for research, including clinical trials on promising new dementia drugs. I will conclude by urging the Minister to commit early to improving dementia care across- the-board, causes, diagnosis, prevention, treatment, care and

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support. I wanted to share today some of

18:18

Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)

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I wanted to share today some of my experiences and some of the my experiences and some of the experiences of my office manager, Becker. We agreed the issue we wanted to raise as part of this debate today was dignity. Beckers Nan Pat lived with dementia for over a decade, she received care by a specialist and later at home. When carers visited Pat was left in unclean clothing or not taken to the toilet. When Pat moved into a care home the quality of care improved.

The staff clearly cared for her and overtime she became one of the longest residing residents. Some carers treated her like family. But even in a good care home the pressures of understaffing meant dignity was often the first thing to be compromised. Pat husband and daughter visited every day, they noticed she was frequently dressed in clothes that didn't belong to her despite everything being clearly labelled. Sometimes other residents wore outfits her family had chosen for Pat. As a result, Pat was often left in unfitting clothes, carers also didn't have a time to take her to the toilet.

Everyday she had to advocate for her mother to be sure she was treated with the dignity she deserved. My Nan was born in 1918, she was -- by the time she was 90, she was losing mobility and suffering memory loss. My grandad became her devoted carer and took overall the domestic tasks. After some time, Nan was diagnosed with dementia. I remember the disease becoming increasingly entangled and amplifying her already worrisome nature. She started to become angry, flying off the handle with stress over where grandad was, it increasingly took a hold over her as it progressed.

Nan and Grandad to continue to manage for several years and the situation changed rapidly when grandad became ill himself in 2012. When he was admitted to hospital it was clear that Nan needed full-time care herself. After a few weeks in residential care she was moved at the same hospital as grandad, she was present at his bedside when he died in 2013. They have been married for 73 years. With grandad's death, Nance dementia worsened. She was moved to a care home near my uncle Neil in Bolton, as he and my aunt would be able to spend time with her during the day.

I however never saw Nan again after she moved to Bolton. By that stage she had no memory of me or much of the family. She hallucinated, had become abusive to care home staff, and I remember my uncle Neil telling me how he regularly heard her screaming words that he didn't know she knew, at people who are trying to help her. We decided there was no benefit to me or other family members visiting, it was better to remember her as she was before her mind was taken by that cruel disease.

I don't know if that was the right thing to do, I never will. But by the end, like Pat and so many who suffer with dementia, she had lost her dignity to that disease. She lost everything and needed those around her to maintain her dignity for her. In Erewash and across the country so many more have stories like those I have shared today. Not all of those suffering have someone who can advocate for them, but I hope I have gone some way towards doing so today.

As colleagues have across the House, my gratitude goes out to all of you.

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Congratulations to the member for South Devon in gaining this debate, South Devon in gaining this debate, a really important debate. And an excellent speech. I wish her father-in-law and cousin all the father-in-law and cousin all the very best. I've been the co-chair of the committee on dementia for the the committee on dementia for the last 10 years, like my co-chair Baroness a Browning I became involved because of loved ones who involved because of loved ones who acquired the disease.

In my case it acquired the disease. In my case it was my mum, Angela, who at the age of 64 was diagnosed without signers.

18:22

Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)

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I cared for her along with my stepfather and brother until she died in 2012, I became a dementia friends champion, the first MP to do this, which allowed me to do a number of dementia friends sessions. As a consequence we have hundreds of people in dementia friendly older has been set up we have an annual memory walk, lots of groups who support the families affected by dementia. And I'm very proud of that. I appreciate the government has yet to publish any plans in relation to dementia, but given as we have heard today that dementia is the leading cause of death above heart disease, about cancer, affecting nearly one million people and an equivalent number of carers, I know he will give this the focus and care deserves.

We've also heard of the number of people in NHS beds, 1/4 of the NHS being occupied by people with dementia. Fit and able to be discharged but not able to because of the crisis in social

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care. People with degenerative

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People with degenerative conditions stay under consultant care, after 18 months my constituent care, after 18 months my constituent without signers -- with Alzheimer's without signers -- with Alzheimer's was left, he said he felt abandoned. Does she agree Alzheimer's should be Does she agree Alzheimer's should be treated like other conditions, with an annual health and care review.

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That's a very long question. I certainly do believe need to improve the care, obviously dementia is an the care, obviously dementia is an umbrella term for several different diseases. We can't make recommendations that apply to each specific disease. I think that specific disease. I think that unfortunately hasn't had the area I thought it had. The APPG has undertaken a number of enquiries, that I'm incredibly Pat proud of. -- Proud of. We have heard some of the recommendations around specialists, but we do have unfortunately a postcode lottery.

The APPG heard some fantastic examples of care, but also some not so great examples. And the 2,000 survey, so there's lots to do there. I hope the Minister will look at those recommendations. The report around inequalities around dementia diagnosis needs further attention, and it's not just biogeography it's also by different cohorts of people. In my last minute, or do I have two there? I just wanted to talk about prevention. We've only had a little reference to that.

Actually we've seen that people with early-onset dementia, we are also able to track at the age of 30 when people are starting to get the changes in their brains associated with these different cognitive diseases. What's good for your heart is good for your health, but there are also some other things to consider. Reducing air pollution, we've talked about heart disease and smoking as a real no-no, as is obesity and high blood pressure. But hearing loss as well, issues around hearing are really important to be on top of that.

Excess alcohol consumption, 14 units per week for a healthy life. 18 is excessive for dementia. Social isolation is really bad. Then traumatic brain injury. I'm supporting football families for justice, who are run by Nobby Stiles's son, to try and get compensation and support for footballers. They have been affected throughout their career and are now suffering from brain diseases as a consequence of that. We are calling on football authorities to take their responsibilities.

Footballers now are paid fantastically, that's not the case from the past. We need to make sure they are cared for. This is an occupational disease. Thank you.

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I thank the member for South Devon for bringing this very Devon for bringing this very important debate. We have heard many moving speeches in this debate this afternoon, and I must say it's been afternoon, and I must say it's been a great honour to sit and listen to this. We must remember that dementia this. We must remember that dementia is not a fact of life. Or something everyone must face as they get everyone must face as they get older.

It is not inevitable as a part of ageing. Dementia is a part of ageing. Dementia is a disease, a dreadful disease. 1.5 million people living with dementia million people living with dementia in this country by 2040, so let's treat dementia with the same treat dementia with the same seriousness that we treat all other deadly conditions. Let's not neglect dementia Sibley because it disproportionately affects older disproportionately affects older people. At present we have a fragmented and complex health system that doesn't provide a clear enough route for people with dementia.

Let's improve specialist dementia

18:28

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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support in hospitals and the community. It simply our duty to do community. It simply our duty to do this. So £42.5 billion was the estimated economic impact of dementia in the UK last year. I dementia in the UK last year. I contrast, we learned yesterday the defence budget is £58 billion. It's defence budget is £58 billion. It's suggested that the dementia budget by 2040 will be £90 billion. So by 2040 will be £90 billion. So something must be done.

Improving our primary Settings will help free up hospitals and care systems, up hospitals and care systems, people with dementia occupy 1/4 of all the hospital beds in the all the hospital beds in the country. Let's move to dementia treatment -- let's move dementia treatment into the communities, specialist nurses in the communities. Dementia is not inevitable. We must be bold and optimistic, forwardthinking, and prepared to deploy radical advances in science to tackle the condition. So let's support our scientists and researchers as they strive to develop more effective treatments.

And make progress towards curing the disease that causes it. Let's support research by enabling the NHS to empower its clinicians to use patient data. That would help facilitate medical research and increase the number of clinical academics, whose number have been declining for much too long. I was delighted to hear the member sitting behind me talk about hearing loss. Many members well-known that I am an ENT surgeon. Hearing loss is absolutely central to the problem of people withdrawing from the society in which they live.

The simple testing of hearing and the provision of hearing AIDS will do much to help. I urge members of a certain age to consider having a hearing test themselves. I am interested in knowing what we can do about patient data. If researchers across the country could run studies on 67 million people we will accelerate progress towards a QR. Artificial intelligence can be set to work analysing datasets, providing rich sources of longitudinal data for research and keywords. We already have artificial intelligence to models of folding of proteins that cause the disease.

So, to secure the benefits let's do something about the collection of medical information, prioritise openness by giving access to medical records to see how data is being used to support the NHS. This is something

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Thank you. My honourable friend for securing this really important

18:31

Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)

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18:46

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Department for Health and Social Care." There is a bright future for those living with dementia and their families and carers and Labour will deliver on it." A laudable aim. deliver on it." A laudable aim. However since the election, it does appear all is not quite as it seems. In an Oral Question in the other In an Oral Question in the other place in November, Baroness Merron made it clear that she had, " Not made it clear that she had, " Not committed to a national strategy, stating I do have to say to the stating I do have to say to the noble Baroness that I have not committed to a national care strategy will stop however in our joint approach we will certainly be looking at what's needed.

That will be very much part of our considerations on the work for strategy which Mr Karin Smyth will lead on. It's crucial for the delivery of the services." Significant ask the Minister today are there still specific plans for a are there still specific plans for a

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I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. As he knows, at the beginning of this year the government, the current government, and NHS England removed dementia from its planning guidance. Which sets the priorities for the year ahead. Crucially, removed the ahead. Crucially, removed the diagnosis targets. My view is that was a cruel blow to those with was a cruel blow to those with dementia and their families. Would the Minister like to give his view on the government removing dementia on the government removing dementia from its targets and priorities.

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I am grateful for him promoting me and for his expertise in this area, I understand his work for area, I understand his work for dementia UK. He has beaten me to the dementia UK. He has beaten me to the chase, one of the real concerns charities and patients have raised is exactly that, the taking away of this diagnosis target. We only need to look at Wales where this was the case, where the national diagnosis rate was 56%, 10% lower than England.

On top of this the government is presiding over a major top down restructuring with cuts to Integrated Care Boards and NHS England, whilst forcing through devolution on the 21 county run authorities responsible for social care, whilst raising taxes in the employment National Insurance contribution for care providers that will be passed on to councils, whilst raising taxes on the various charities and others who give support, whilst ditching the fast track scheme, whilst terminating the NHS and care volunteers response who help support care, whilst scrapping the cross-party talks on social care and swapping it to an independent commission which is led by Baroness Casey was still seconded to the Home Office.

We can all see what is being taken away in tax. It's what will benefit dementia care and support that is harder to spot. I appreciate in the rough-and-tumble of this place it's not lost on me how much this issue touches the Minister himself. He has spoken bravely and openly about his family struggle, I have the utmost respect for him and what he has been through. I have been through similar with my grandmother. I do not question his heart, simply gently challenge the government on his policies to achieve better dementia care for all.

To that end I have a couple of questions. Will the government commit to setting a new target to increase diagnosis rates across England? Will the Integrated Care Systems facing restructuring and budget solutions, how does the government plan to hold people to account on dementia diagnosis? We have seen from Wales how regular collection on dementia diagnosis affects overall diagnosis rates. What steps will the government take to improve dementia diagnosis, particularly when it comes to follow-up. Given the growing prevalence of dementia in our care homes, what steps will the government take to ensure the workforce is trained effectively to meet the needs of care users.

With the upcoming spending review and long awaited plan for the NHS, i.e. Trust the Minister sat in front of me, he is the right person to highlight to the government the seriousness of tackling dementia. Just like the last government understood. I returned to where I started, dementia steals the most from those left remembering, because the greatest heartbreak is losing someone who is still here. But with compassion for families, dignities for those who suffer, and a relentless pursuit for a cure we cannot only offer care but hope.

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Thank you very much. I would like to thank the honourable member for South Devon for securing this debate. And I would like to comment debate. And I would like to comment her for her work as a member of the all-party parliamentary group on dementia. This was a thoughtful and dementia. This was a thoughtful and constructive debate, with a number of truly powerful and moving personal contributions from members personal contributions from members across the chamber. This is a cause that is close to my heart, I would that is close to my heart, I would like to thank all members for their like to thank all members for their kind words about my family.

But I know my own families history is very know my own families history is very far from unique. We know that one in two of us will be affected by dementia in our lifetime, either by dementia in our lifetime, either by caring for someone with the condition, developing it ourselves or both. It's also predicted that by 2040 just under 1.5 million people in England will be living with dementia. Each person along with their loved ones and carers has a unique journey, and their own heartbreaking stories.

So on behalf of the government I want to thank everyone working to support people with dementia, as well as their friends, family and carers. This government will back them every step of the way. We are also backing our scientists to deliver new treatments and ways to care for people living with dementia. I recently had the pleasure of visiting the UK dementia research in's centre for care and technology, where I saw some of their innovative smart home tools. A timely diagnosis is vital to ensure everyone can access the advice information and support to help them to live well with dementia and remain independent for as long as possible.

This government remains committed to the national ambition for two thirds of people living with dementia to receive a formal diagnosis. We are funding evidence- based improvement projects for the dementia mandate in 14 trusts. I'm delighted the best practices currently being shared with regional and local partners following an impact assessment of the pilots. Dementia can impact anyone, but there is burying and unequal access to services. That's why the office and disparities is working to make our country fairer by developing a tool that provides a clear assessment of population characteristics such as reality and socio-economic deprivation.

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I welcome his confirmation of commitment to the diagnosis target commitment to the diagnosis target of two thirds. Will he put that in a key document, the equivalent of the planning guidance for NHS England. Will he ensure that is well documented in a strategic document documented in a strategic document and set it out so we can be clear we are not only relying on his oral

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assertions in this chamber. We are absolutely on the record with the 6.7% target. I want to take this opportunity to set out what appears to be a philosophical difference between this government's approach to our health and care system and those of many members system and those of many members opposite. We believe in devolution, decentralisation, empowering those who are closest to the citizen to who are closest to the citizen to make the decisions that need to be made. If others have a more centralising deeply anachronistic approach to managing our system, which I heard from Liberal Democrat members and others, that's fine, that's up to you.

We believe in modernising our system, not micromanaging, not having shopping lists of targets, it's by supporting and agreeing on outcomes but leaving those who are best placed at the coalface to decide on how best to meet the unmet needs of their communities. And that is a very clear dividing line between us. On the point about research, it's also worth pointing out that the studies we have done working with research UK, Alzheimer's Society and the People's postcode lottery, found that through our investment they are working to produce clinical data that can bring led tests to the -- blood tests to the NHS.

This means the rate of diagnosis will improve, the latest data from April showed diagnosis rate has inched up to diagnosis rate has inched up to 65.5%, up 0.3% since July 2024. It's worth noting the 66.7% ambition has not been met since 2020. Looking at care, the quality and availability of services are variable, we are empowering local leaders with the autonomy they need, we are supporting Integrated Care Boards. I'm pleased to say we recently published the dementia 100 assessment tool pathway program, which brings together multiple resources into a single consolidated training tool.

That launched last month, there has been huge interest and support from the sector, 1,000 people registering to attend the seminar. We are supporting the implement determination of the guidance through a dashboard to enable targeted support where it is needed. We must have a workforce that is equipped with the skills that are needed. We are incredibly proud of everyone who works in the care sector and they deserve the training that many members have mentioned. The care workforce pathway provides guidance across adult social care, giving them the knowledge and behaviours carers need.

It links the frameworks including the dementia standards framework. Some of these can be achieved through the qualifications available under the learning and support scheme. That scheme launched in September last year and supports adult social care employers to invest in their work. Funded training opportunities including a range of dementia-related qualifications. We have backed the scheme with a £12 million investment. Pay and conditions are also vitally important elements of our workforce strategy. I'm sure members across the House will welcome our groundbreaking farepaying agreement legislation, within the employment rights Bill, for adult social care workers which is hugely significant in this context.

As a number of members have highlighted, the vital role carers play. To support them on 7 April government increased the Carer's Allowance weekly earnings limit from £151 per week to £156 a week, the equivalent of 16 hours of the national wage. The largest increase in the earners limit since 1976, that is a change we are very proud of. I want to finish today by saying I understand every person with dementia alongside their families, friends and carers, have their own unique story of living with dementia.

I know I am not alone in this fight. I want to pager B2B Alzheimer's Society, dementia UK adult sign as you search -- research UK, for their important work. Together we will build a society where every person with dementia receives high-quality care from diagnosis through to the end of life. I also want to once again thank the honourable member for South Devon for raising this vitally important topic.

18:58

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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I really don't think there's much to add to what has been said. I want to thank all members who have come here today to share stories of their own personal experience with dementia, family members and loved ones, I know it's not easy to do. We all have really difficult experiences, it's been very moving to hear those who have shared their personal stories. I know that we have a Minister in front of us who deeply feels these issues, understands what dementia means, understands the impact on the wider family.

I would really like to see properly trained dementia nurses in every GPs surgery and every acute hospital trust across the country so we can keep these people at home, we can look after them and their carers, we can support the people who love them who do an incredible job. And I would like to pay tribute to the hundreds of organisations across the country who have been mentioned today, doing really amazing work. A lot of them voluntarily.

18:59

19:05

Adjournment: Closure of Yeovil Hospital's maternity unit

District Hospital issued a section $29 a notice. Because it assessed that year for district hospital failed to meet the regulations failed to meet the regulations relating to staffing and governance and therefore require significant improvement. On Monday 12 May the hospital trust decided to temporarily close the special care baby unit from 19 May, initially for six months, which also means the hospital will be unable to safely provide care during labour and birth and the maternity unit, meaning that the unit is officially closed.

The care for pregnant people due to give birth will now be transferred to either Musgrave Park, Dorchester County Hospital, the Royal United Hospital in Bath or Salisbury Hospital.

19:06

Adjournment: Closure of Yeovil Hospital's maternity unit Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you very much. The honourable member I'm sure realises the problems we've had at our district hospital. I was lucky enough to have my first two sons in the old maternity hospital. I'm sure that people not being able to go to Yeovil to give birth will push down literally into the hospital, and I remind my honourable friend there was an incident a couple of years ago when one of my constituents delivered her fifth child in a car park in a pub because Tiverton hospital didn't have the capacity to take her in.

He agreed with me that the closure of the year for maternity services doesn't just impact Dorset, Somerset, it also impacts my hospital in my

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constituency? Thank you. I do agree with that, and I will come to that later on. In letters and meetings I have directly asked senior leaders at the trust the reassurance the service will reopen after six months, and they have been after six months, and they have been unable to give me it. My number one priority is my constituents health and safety. I appreciate the decision was a difficult one and patient safety was at its heart. The patient safety was at its heart.

The safety of mothers and their babies much of course come first my master, but the way in which the decision but the way in which the decision was reached and impairment it has been disgraceful and created huge fear and anger in the oval and make fear and anger in the oval and make the people's health at risk. The hospital trust leadership say the high level of sickness among senior high level of sickness among senior staff at the hospital caused gaps in the rotor, but I've been informed the staff who are off sick are off because of the work-related stress.

Stress reportedly caused by a lack of support and toxic work culture and bullying from management. This is not good enough. Clinicians have been working dismally hard to provide quality care and have been trying to work alongside management to improve the surface but have found management not supportive at all. So it seems this real issue here is one of management and support and maintaining staff. After the CQC inspection it was up to the hospital trust to plan out a clear responsive and to ensure safe maternity services at Yeovil hospital.

Despite money apparently not being a problem, what we got was a lack and attempt of recruitment for the hospital leadership waited until literally last minute to reach a decision. They close the maternity unit with little to no consultation with staff, patients and stakeholders such as Somerset Council, MPs like myself. It's an insult that the hard-working staff only knew about the closer -- closure six days after it was due to happen. -- Before. They found that on social media and marks of teams.

To disgrace the expecting parents were given such short notice and from hospital trust providing them advanced and detailed information about the temporary closure. Give a hospital charity have been fundraising over the last few months the maternity unit. It would raise £2000 and this month we are due to have another huge fundraiser. They too do such great work for the hospital, and they were even left in the dark. This is just not good enough. What is really worrying is that a decision made to protect people may put their health at risk.

Many suspecting parents my expecting have told me about their fears of capacity under the hospitals, travel time supporting, Dorchester and Bath. Last year there were proximally 1,300 births in your hospital, most of the patients that would have been seen in the oval will go to Musgrave Park in Taunton where staff are ready raised concerns about not having enough capacity to manage their own patient capacity to manage their own patient

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numbers. In September last year reports... I'm grateful to the honourable member Vigo for securing this important debate. Does he agree with me that many of my constituents, many women in my constituency choose many women in my constituency choose to give birth in Musgrave Park Hospital, and with the closure of Hospital, and with the closure of Yeovil, as he said 1,200 babies born each year, there is a great concern that Taunton will have the capacity that Taunton will have the capacity to cope, and in fact mothers across Somerset will suffer from this

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closure? I do agree and actually I come to that point now. In September of last that point now. In September of last that point now. In September of last year, reports said Musgrave was terribles, superhot and overcrowded while extra measures put in place, expecting the overstretched service to safely take on extra cases from the oval is not realistic, and it risks putting even more pressure on the hard-working staff over the breaking point. I must consent staff at Dorchester and Bath will be put under serious pressure and despite their best efforts services may suffer there too.

It's mothers that are high risk or may have competitions about the time particularly worried about. Many parents from my constituents who expense convocations during the birth of their children like Louise or Rob have told me that their children are alive because of the tireless work and dedication of the team at Yeovil. And the children may not have survived had there been -- they been forced to travel to other hospitals 45 minutes away from most of my constituents on a good day for top espresso told me they are worried the emergency slightly pregnancies, require immediate medical attention and can cause death for mothers and babies.

It's not just parents in paediatrics at risk first I'm seriously concerned about the knock-on effects of Yeovil's emergency department. Potentially putting more strain on the hospital and patient care. Sadly other constituents hoping to have children have told me they are now reconsidering because of the stress and risk posed potentially not having proper maternity services in Yeovil. While I appreciate this is a local issue, trust in hospital leadership has broken down. I believe central government has a duty of care to the people of Yeovil and there are steps it can take to help.

I asked the Minister to urgently take a review of the decision-making process and Somerset NHS foundation trust on the closure of maternity services. I urge the Department...

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You mention Somerset NHS foundation trust. It also made a decision recently to reduce the decision recently to reduce the number of beds and associated staff every community hospital. And I every community hospital. And I wonder whether he agrees that

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hospitals like the RUH need proper consultation with the staff and community before they undertaken? Totally agree and it's really not

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Totally agree and it's really not good enough. I hope the Minister is listening to this. I urge the Department Health and Social Care to do all it can to maintain and do all it can to maintain and support the NHS Somerset in ensuring the return of safe maternity services to Yeovil District services to Yeovil District Hospital, just like the closure of the hyperacusis regular, many worry this is a sign that district hospital is going to be turned into a cottage hospital. As such I also a cottage hospital.

As such I also asked the Minister to join NHS Somerset ICB and committing to maintain a full functioning district hospital in Yeovil provide the same high quality and sustainable service. However Yeovil is not alone in this. We face a crisis of maternity services, particularly in rural areas was that the CQC has raised safety concerns about our lack of training, and limited engagement in communities, an adequate risk assessment and poor management and culture among senior leadership. The CQC national review of maternity services in England 22/24 found 47% of maternity services were rated as requiring improvement for safety.

As of May 25, 56% of maternity you in south- west had overall rating requiring improvement or inadequate. Even this can the Minister detailed the governance plan for funding and improving the provision, management and staff at the maternity services in hospital trust and cover large rural geography? And can the Minister provide a timeline for permitting these plans? Finally, I again urge the mist and the sector of state me with honourable members from Somerset and Dorset to further discuss this and to come to Yeovil and talk to those impacted by the decision? In conclusion, the closure of Yeovil District Hospital maternity unit initially for six months was done for the right reasons but has been done disgracefully.

People in Yeovil are not as worried, they are scared and angry. Care deeply about spotting our fantastic NHS staff and the life-saving work they do. Hundreds of people have joined me at a rally outside the hospital on the day of the maternity service close and many more have written to me for the nearly 6,000 people have only signed petitions calling for the safe return of Yeovil maternity you now. We will campaign tirelessly to ensure we can restore local maternity services in Yeovil safely.

I hope minister will join us in this battle because everyone deserves access to safe, local maternity care regardless of where they live. Thank you.

19:15

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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19:27

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:33

Private business

19:33

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:33

Private business

19:34

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:34

Private business

19:34

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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19:34

Private business

House House of House of Commons House of Commons - House of Commons - 3 House of Commons - 3 June

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